# Why Marie Antoinette Became the Most Hated Woman in France | The French Revolution | Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5yrVIGJfg

[00:00] The eyes of the world are on, uh, Paris and France.
[00:02] So how better, then, for us to contribute a series on what is probably, Dominic, uh, I mean, one of the great seismic events not just in European but in global history?
[00:15] Certainly one of the two or three greatest stories in world history.
[00:19] I mean, the roller coaster of bloodshed, violence, utopianism, insurrection, excitement, you name it.
[00:28] So this is the kickoff for our first series, which will take us through the first couple of years of the Revolution.
[00:33] So we're going to look at some of the causes, some of the background of the Revolution.
[00:36] And then we'll take through the storming of the Bastille, um, and go up to the point where King Louis the 16th and his Queen, Marie Antoinette, who we've just been hearing about, trying to get out of France, uh, and, uh, spoiler alert: they fail.
[00:52] Um, and that is the cliffhanger on which we will leave it.
[00:55] Yeah, um, because, of course, everybody knows what will then happen to the king and queen.
[00:57] Yes, um, and.
[01:00] I think Marie Antoinette is a kind of wonderful focus for looking at some of the causes because she's very, very celebrated.
[01:08] I mean, one of the one of the instantly kind of recognizable figures, she must be one of the two or three most well-known people in all French history, I would have said.
[01:16] Yes, and at the time she is seen by enthusiasts for the revolution as the absolute embodiment of everything that prompted it.
[01:26] You know, she is the kind of the incarnation of regime arrogance, of aristocratic splendor, and of a kind of quality of vampirism that has leeched the French people of what should be rightfully theirs.
[01:44] And in her lifetime, before and then particularly after the revolution, she is the object of absolutely kind of obsessive hatred.
[01:50] And it's also a kind of pungent hatred, you know, because it is tied up with kind of fantasies about what she's been getting up to.
[01:59] And I guess that that that I mean that runs through.
[02:01] To the present day, because the one phrase that everyone would associate with her, "let them eat cake," is still repeated, isn't it?
[02:10] Despite the fact that she never said it, I know, and the original phrase is "so let them meet brioche" has slightly different connotations, doesn't it?
[02:18] Yeah, because I always kind of imagine, you know, a big gate, strawberries on the top or something, but she never said it anyway.
[02:24] So there's no point in dissecting, I guess, to some degree, other than the fact that the fact that people think she said it is indicative of this idea of her and Louie, who's supposedly kind of both, who's her puppets, them living this life of unbelievable depravity and lasciviousness and arrogance and not caring.
[02:46] All of which, well not all of it, is completely wrong, but there are definitely huge problems with that, nuances there.
[02:53] But again, against that, against the image of Marie Antoinette as a kind of a depraved vampire, there is also, there's also been right.
[03:02] From the beginning, for conservatives, um, a sense that she is, you know, she is the archetype of the victims of the Revolution.
[03:10] Her fate exemplifies what critics of the Revolution see as its destructiveness, as its kind of bloodlust.
[03:19] So the Revolution itself is cast as a vampire, um, and in England, the person who classically first articulates that is the Irish politician and Whig — so not even a Tory — Edmund Burke, um, who, uh, November 1790 wrote Reflections on the Revolution in France.
[03:42] And in that, he famously recalls seeing Marie Antoinette kind of 16 or 17 years before, at the court, glittering like the morning star, full of life and splendor and joy.
[03:50] And he famously enthuses, I thought 10,000 swords must have from their scabbards to avenge even a look that threatened her.
[04:02] with insult but the age of chivalry is gone.
[04:04] that of sisas economists and calculators succeeded and the glory of Europe is extinguished forever.
[04:12] I would say his is the among biographers and among people who studied the revolution it's it's his take actually that is more enduring than the than the let them eat cake she's a vampire school of thought isn't it?
[04:27] because actually now it's I would say most writers are filled with horror when they look at what happened to Marian tet this young girl who arrived in France and was turned into a hate figure for the mob.
[04:38] Shantel Tom who you who who we opened with I mean her her book is about um the vituperation that is kind of lashed on Mari Antoinette and she has a section where she talks about how biographers through the 19th and into the 20th century would debate about whether these were true or not and she just says you know none of these stories about the incest and the vampirism are true.
[04:59] I mean they're obviously not true and she says that that that most recent
[05:02] Biographies have been written and to quote her with sympathy if not with love.
[05:07] And I would say that's probably true of of of her as well because she wrote a a novel that then got turned into a film called Farewell My Queen in English that featured Diane Krueger.
[05:19] So Helen Troy in in in Troy as maranet and that that's a French film.
[05:24] But of course Marie Antoinette has also been a kind of um an an American pinup so film that was massively popular with my daughters when they were growing up came out in 2006 is Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette in which she's kind of cast as you know very much a contemporary heroine.
[05:40] She's surrounded by her Squad.
[05:42] She's got Converse trainers in her in the in the cabinet you know she rushes around Versa to New Wave bands um and what was interesting about that I was kind of reading up about the reception of it in France because it was it was premiered at Cannes and there it was greeted with boos and then with cheers so kind of answering boos and cheers by the French.
[06:04] Journalists who've been watching it, which I guess kind of sums up a massive division in France itself, because Mar stands for the revolution to some degree.
[06:12] Because what you think of Marette, you know, you ask a French, an educated Frenchman or French woman what they think of Mar tet, and their answer will tell you why they think of the Revolution probably, and probably also where they stand politically even today in the 21st century.
[06:29] Don't you think?
[06:31] Yeah, I really, I mean I do, and I think to a degree that may be true as well in the broader world perhaps, but I mean it's much more focused in France obviously.
[06:40] And I think that that sense of ambivalence, you know, is Maran twet a monster or is she a victim, is she someone to be detested and loathed or is she someone to be P pied and admired?
[06:54] That's an ambivalence that is there even before the Revolution.
[07:00] So what is the way that she is viewed by the French public is a kind of mixture of loathing.
[07:05] And yeah, desire, she's not always hated, that's an important point to make.
[07:10] She's not, and there are certain, you know, she's very popular with certain segments of society, and I think that she's cast either as a kind of emblem of Royal Grace because, as we will see, in a way she's a very, very modern figure.
[07:25] She kind of basically, I think, invents the French ideal of fashion; she's way ahead of the game, but to other people this makes her the kind of embodiment of frivolity or decadence.
[07:37] Yeah, she's a very proactive Queen.
[07:39] Queens in France generally do not, are not expected to play a proactive role in court life, still less National Life.
[07:45] Marie Antoinette comes to do that, um, and she's a kind of emblem of all the paradoxes that we'll be talking about in the context of the Revolution.
[07:56] But the fact that she's a figure of fantasy is really crucial because not just her, but the Revolution itself is about the creation of stories.
[08:06] The projection of stories and narratives onto facts of, you know, the economy, uh, agriculture, uh, the crowds, uh, the court, everything.
[08:18] It's how you structure the story that basically determines your attitudes to the revolution, I think.
[08:23] Do you think that?
[08:24] I absolutely, I totally agree, Tom.
[08:26] I mean, uh, historians like Simon Schama and Robert Darnton have written brilliant books about how the French Revolution is a, it's a sort of hall of mirrors or hall of narratives, I suppose.
[08:36] For Versa, exactly.
[08:39] So let's, let's start not at Versa but with, uh, Marie Antoinette herself.
[08:42] So she is born, Tom, in 1755, and of course the single most important thing about her, I would say, is that she is not French; she is Austrian.
[08:54] She is, we love the Habsburgs on the Rest of History.
[08:57] I don't think there'll ever be a historical podcast in the history of mankind that is so keen on the Habsburgs as the Rest Is History.
[09:04] We've had Edward Habsburg talking about the Habsburgs; we've had...
[09:07] France Ferdinand great friend of the rest's history and now another Hapsburg.
[09:11] Mar Antoinet, yes, although she's born Maria Antonia, um, and I think that it's fair to say that her identity as an Austrian and as a Hapsburg is kind of fundamental both to how her admirers see her and how her detractors see her.
[09:31] So to her admirers, she is an embodiment of a new age of peace between what traditionally have been the great rivals in European politics.
[09:41] So going right the way back to the 16th century, Charles I and Frost I, you know, these are the people who are kind of tearing Europe up while Luther is busy getting on with his stuff, and France and the Hapsburg Empire have been the great geopolitical rivals on the continent of Europe.
[10:00] But this has changed over the course of the 18th century due to the emergence of two new great powers.
[10:06] Yeah, one of those.
[10:09] Is Britain very happy to say, um, so in the Seven Years War Britain is taking on France and winning as a kind of global a global power.
[10:19] But on the continent there's the emergence of Prussia, yes, and Prussia is hungry for a lot of uh Austria's traditional territories, um, and under its great king Frederick Frederick II it annexes a province called Silesia, doesn't it, which is basically now it's a chunk of Poland, yeah.
[10:38] And the Hapsburgs are terribly upset about this and basically they kind of enter into an alliance with France so that they can get Silesia back, and France enters into an alliance with Austria so that she can have a counterweight to Britain.
[10:50] So the Diplomatic Revolution historians call this, so such a seismic moment in European history, yeah.
[10:57] So uh so the 7 years war breaks out in 1756, um, with with Britain and Prussia against Austria and France.
[11:04] And the following year, um, a a very heavyweight figure in French Politics, the Duc de Choiseul, arrives in.
[11:10] Vienna as the French Ambassador and the uh the the rulers who greet him they're they're a couple aren't they so there's the the emperor is Francis I first um but the person who's really kind of cracking the whip is his wife the Empress Maria Teresa yeah and and she is a very very proficient politician indeed one might say stateswoman um but she's also very very fertile and the hapsburgs have always I mean it's been their boast isn't it that some Empires get their way by fighting we do it by marrying off our children and Ria Antonia is their 11th daughter and as it will turn out their last daughter and the reason that the the Dr Shel is interested in her is that she is one year younger than the grand grandson of Lou the 15th the French King also inevitably called Louie and his very fertile mind is thinking well we could you know we could maybe marry them off a brilliant way to cement the alliance and to ensure that the alliance.
[12:12] Endures yes and so in due course he Shel goes back from from Vienna he goes back to Paris and he becomes the foreign minister basically the kind of the um almost the Prime Minister for for Louis the 15th and he's kind of pushing this idea he's saying you know we should we should really try and cement this Alliance and it comes into further focus in 1765 when Lou the 15's son and therefore the father of uh this guy who this Louie who um is is being lined up to marry Maria Antonia he dies and so the grandson of Louis the 15th is now the DOA the the kind of French equivalent of the Prince of Wales the air to the throne he's 11 he's so he's and Mary Mar Antonia is then what sorry is she 10 10 yeah on the 4th of April 1770 it's all agreed the marriage contract is signed uh there's a kind of weird thing where they do a proxy marriage in Vienna so the new emperor.
[13:14] Maria Teresa's son Joseph he stands in as as for for for the Doan and then two days later Maria Antonia is put into a carriage along with 56 other carriages and they set off from Vienna to go to France and and people who are enthusiasts for this Alliance think this is brilliant absolutely wonderful but of course in France there lot of people who are not enthusiasts because as you said I mean these are I mean these are ancestral enemies they have of course come together under the pressure of Prussia and Britain but the culturally imaginatively the idea of Austria to most French men and women is is this basically this horrendous place our enemies austrians can't be trusted and that baggage she is never able to shed it for the rest of her life so right the way through her career and and kind of to an escalating degree she is always referred to as lrien so the Austrian but if you put the emphasis on xen that's yeah in France so it's kind of the ostrich so she's
[14:14] Always being portrayed either as an ostrich or as a dog or both, and the weird thing is is that this isn't actually remotely fair because her father is basically French.
[14:26] So Francis the first, you know, he's the Duke of Lorraine, he is a French royal descent, and there's a case for saying that Marie Antoinette is actually one of the most French queens that the Bourbon, the Royal Dynasty have ever had because normally they're marrying foreign queens who have no French connections at all.
[14:47] But what's interesting is that, you know, her father basically gets written out of the story, and she is portrayed as being her mother's daughter, solely her mother's daughter.
[14:54] Maria Theresa is seen as this terrifying virago who is out to destroy France, and so Marie Antoinette is cast as a kind of Trojan Horse who's been sent into the, you know, the very stronghold of French power to destroy it from inside.
[15:11] In Simon Schama's words, the spy he calls it, he says that's the image that is, I mean.
[15:15] We're jumping ahead, but that's the image.
[15:16] The people later have of her and Maria.
[15:18] Antonio who becomes, I mean, she she really does become Maran tet.
[15:22] So actually French has been her first language.
[15:26] She speaks it initially with a German accent, but that very rapid L, you know, she very rapidly loses that.
[15:32] In preparation for her life at the French Court, she's had a French tutor called the AB de Vermon.
[15:40] Who turns up and is appalled to discover that Mar Antonette has no, basically she hasn't had any education at all.
[15:46] And throughout her life, she's, she's, she has no interest in books.
[15:50] She's incredibly kind of not, not remotely, although she is interested in kind of the cultural temperature, isn't she?
[15:56] She's, as we will see, she's, but I think she kind of absorbs it with, I mean, it's said of her that no one has ever seen her finish a book.
[16:06] And I think that that is kind of widely believed.
[16:08] And he complains of a quality that will be repeatedly applied to her, which is her leer, her frivolity, her lightness.
[16:18] Fact that she she is not a heavy person.
[16:22] I think it would be fair to say but he also acknowledges that you know she has she has great charm she has has great poise.
[16:29] She is also um she's not conventionally pretty because she has um the kind of you know the classic protuberant lower lip of a Hapsburg, yeah.
[16:38] But she you know she has the ab says a perfect porcelain complexion, she has brilliant blue eyes, she has a very sweet oval face.
[16:46] So basically you know she will do, yeah.
[16:48] Well that's the the reports.
[16:50] Robert dson in his book The Revolutionary Temper um says that when the P pamphleteers newspapers and whatnot were talking about in France they all said she's actually very nice looking, you know.
[17:00] She's blonde hair, beautiful pale complexion, everyone is pleased, she looks like a queen, she does.
[17:06] And and and as we will see she um she she becomes a great icon of beauty and fashion and style um and there's a kind of symbolic moment where she ceases to be Austrian and becomes French which is um she you know she's traveling up.
[17:20] From Vienna with her, you know, in her 57 carriages.
[17:22] And on the 7th of May 1770, they reach the Rhine.
[17:26] And there's an island in the middle of it.
[17:28] And this wooden pavilion has been built that looks like a kind of, you know, perfectly tiny shadow.
[17:35] And it has five rooms inside it.
[17:38] Um, and there's kind of two on the Austrian side, two on the French side.
[17:43] And there's a kind of room in the middle.
[17:45] And Marie Antoinette goes into the Austrian rooms.
[17:47] She's divested of her clothes down to her kind of underwear.
[17:49] She's then put into a French ceremonial dress.
[17:51] She's led into the central drawing room.
[17:54] The door leading into the French rooms is opened.
[17:58] Um, she looks back.
[18:01] The doors, the Austrian doors have been shut.
[18:03] All the Austrian servants have vanished.
[18:06] And um, Marie Antoinette is handed over to this terrifying woman who is the Madame de Etiquette, the woman who is going to instruct her in the ritual of the court, um, called the Contessa.
[18:17] No, what was that noise?
[18:20] Contester, no, yeah, just too many vowels.
[18:23] There's basically four vowels in there.
[18:25] It's a Scrabble, it is Scrabble heaven, and Maret bursts into tears at the sight of this terrifying woman.
[18:32] Flings herself into the contest's arms.
[18:34] The contestant, massively embarrassed, very stiff, shrugs her off.
[18:37] Performs a low curtsy.
[18:39] Marie Antoinette apologizes, um, and says, "Pardon me, these are for the family in the Fatherland.
[18:44] I'm leaving for the future.
[18:46] I shall not forget that I am French."
[18:50] And the contester says, "Yeah, you better not.
[18:52] I'm here to whip you into shape."
[18:55] So off they go.
[18:57] And just one thing: she is 14 years old, she's not yet 15.
[19:00] So I mean, this is, imagine what an unbelievably terrifying moment this must be for her.
[19:05] And what makes it even worse, she has an adorable little dog who she has to leave behind.
[19:10] But we'll come to that later.
[19:12] It's a crucial part of the story.
[19:14] Anyway, on they rattle, and it takes them a week to meet with the Doan.
[19:22] And the French King and they do it outside the forest of Compiègne.
[19:26] And the Dauphin, as Mar when it now, is, um, are introduced 3 days later.
[19:32] They are married, and she is now the Queen of France just on the marriage.
[19:39] Tom, um, one bad omen, one very dark omen.
[19:42] If anyone knows about Russian history, they will, they will spot the, uh, resemblance.
[19:46] Um, Nicholas II, Alexandra; when they were crowned, there was a massive, uh, stampede afterwards, and hundreds of people were killed.
[19:56] Well, after the marriage of the Dauphin and Marie Antoinette, there was another stampede.
[19:59] There's a fireworks display that goes horribly wrong; perhaps 150 people were killed in the crush.
[20:04] And so after that, whenever people does the firework kind of drop on exactly, exactly.
[20:09] There's a, there were two rival — they've been got two rival fireworks designers, uh, a man called M to and a guy called Rieri.
[20:16] And Rieri goes second, so he wants to outdo the other bloke.
[20:18] It's a, it's an incredibly elaborate fireworks display.
[20:22] it goes wrong a fire falls onto this
[20:25] Temple that he's built a temple of Hyman
[20:27] and in the Crush 150 people are killed
[20:29] and so whenever people remember they
[20:31] look back later on they say doomed from
[20:34] the start what a bad Omen we should
[20:36] never have gone involved with this
[20:37] Austrian woman you know the fireworks
[20:38] were a warning and that this kind of
[20:40] great emblem isn't there kind of of the
[20:42] arms of France and the arms of the
[20:43] hapsburgs yeah uh kind of intertwined
[20:46] and the fact that it has generated This
[20:47] Disaster as you say is seen as an omen
[20:50] and I think that that reflects the fact
[20:51] that the French don't only hate the
[20:53] austrians but kind of look down on them
[20:56] because Austria relative to France has
[20:58] been declining since the 16th century
[21:01] and France now is with the exception of
[21:04] Russia um it's by far the largest kind
[21:07] of European realm so it's been descri in
[21:08] the 18th century it's been described as
[21:10] the China of Europe you know it has by
[21:12] far the largest population 28 million TW
[21:16] twice as big as Britain so and Britain
[21:19] even with Ireland um and it has so it
[21:22] has kind of
[21:23] geopolitical power it has um you know
[21:26] population as you said and it has
[21:28] massive cultural Prestige and of course
[21:31] the great symbol of this cultural
[21:33] Prestige is the place where uh Mar
[21:35] Anette has gone and where she will spend
[21:38] much of her life which is the enormous
[21:41] Palace of versailes it's where they're
[21:43] married this enormous Palace kind of 700
[21:46] rooms uh 2,000 Windows the roofs cover a
[21:50] 100 hectares I mean on an enormous scale
[21:54] and it's basically the physical
[21:56] embodiment of of the style of government
[22:00] that the French monarchy represents
[22:02] which is a kind of monarchical
[22:04] absolutism yeah um I mean the French
[22:06] monarchy had always been powerful but
[22:07] since the the 16th and then through the
[22:09] 17th and definitely into the 18th
[22:11] century it's it's become more and more
[22:14] it's monopolized power more and more and
[22:16] the figure who represents that is the
[22:17] great grandfather of Louis the 15th and
[22:20] predecessor Louis the 14th who had
[22:23] basically annihilated the nobility as an
[22:26] independent political class he had
[22:27] required them to come to verai and they
[22:31] are merely planets orbiting the Sun yeah
[22:34] Sun King the the Sun King and so versai
[22:39] sets fashion manners dress everything
[22:44] for the whole of Europe so the great
[22:46] rival of Louis the 14th the Duke of mbra
[22:49] when he you know he he celebrates his
[22:51] victories over the Louis the 14th by
[22:53] building a kind of zat's Versa yeah
[22:55] Blendon Palace Blendon Palace for Mar
[22:57] antonet and indeed pretty much for
[22:59] everybody I mean it's a very oppressive
[23:01] place isn't it oh it's it's awful
[23:03] because the court is so she's grown up
[23:05] in the hapsburg court which is much more
[23:08] uh informal and is becoming more
[23:10] informal during her childhood but the
[23:12] French court is governed by and it's
[23:15] it's partly because it's governed by
[23:16] these very very strict ceremonial
[23:19] hierarchical rules but also it is a kind
[23:22] of snake pit of politics isn't it with
[23:23] people jostling for power the whole time
[23:26] yes and one of the problems for Mar
[23:27] antonet is her Patron the Duke the DU sh
[23:31] Falls from Power only a few months after
[23:33] her her marriage um and he you know he'd
[23:37] been her sponsor her protector and that
[23:39] means that she's just a very young girl
[23:41] teenager and she's surrounded by people
[23:43] who hate her and hate Austria so the
[23:46] aunts of the DOA so Louis the 15's
[23:49] daughters they hate Austria um also the
[23:53] DOA has younger brothers um and one in
[23:55] particular the comp of provance who in
[23:57] due call
[23:59] vastly in the future and I use the word
[24:01] vastly advisedly will become Louis the
[24:03] 18th I mean a man of colossal size but
[24:06] at this point he's just you know he's
[24:08] still very young um he's just a teenage
[24:11] himself but he's consumed with
[24:13] resentment of the fact that he's not
[24:14] going to be king so he's he's a
[24:16] potential snake a younger brother who
[24:17] turns out to be a snake who could ever
[24:20] that will never happen in monarchical
[24:21] history again will it some never again
[24:23] yeah uh there are certain parallels to
[24:25] contemporary Royals that we'll be
[24:26] teasing out over the course of this
[24:28] series I think and poor say poor Mar
[24:30] anet feels completely cut off and she
[24:32] complains that um you know all her
[24:34] correspondence is being looked at that
[24:36] that that nowhere that she locks
[24:37] anything is safe and essentially this is
[24:41] I mean this is the kind of treatment
[24:42] that all foreign Queens in
[24:44] Versa are put through they are kind of
[24:48] there as
[24:50] hostages um as much as anything else and
[24:54] you know they're not expected to have a
[24:56] good time you know they're not expected
[24:58] to enjoy themselves but Mar antoinet is
[25:02] she's she she's strong enough and right
[25:04] from the beginning it's clear that she's
[25:06] a much stronger character than than her
[25:08] husband and it's clear that she is if
[25:10] the when she gets you know when he when
[25:12] she becomes Queen she is going to kick
[25:14] back against this kind of formality so
[25:16] there's a kind of classic moment where
[25:18] for some reason she's riding on a donkey
[25:20] it's the kind of thing I guess that you
[25:22] know a teenage girl might enjoy doing
[25:24] but that the uh the
[25:27] contest really disapproves of so she
[25:30] falls off the donkey and she kind of
[25:31] makes this witty quip um that she'd
[25:34] better send to the compest to find out
[25:35] what the etiquette is for a doine
[25:37] falling off a donkey and you can see
[25:40] there that um this is an attitude that
[25:42] is going to rub up against a lot that
[25:45] has made Versa tick yeah however having
[25:49] said that that she's she's she's
[25:51] resentful of the kind of the formality
[25:52] and the stiffness of it all there is
[25:55] also the fact that versa particularly
[25:58] under Lou the the 15th is a kind of um
[26:03] it's a showcase for unsettling displays
[26:05] of Royal libertinism because Louis the
[26:07] 15th Al although personally quite a kind
[26:10] of modest and shy person I mean he's
[26:14] he's a he's a bit of a dirty old man as
[26:15] well time he's just he only ever I mean
[26:18] from morning till till till night he
[26:20] only ever thinks about one thing is it
[26:22] not true that the first thing he said
[26:24] when he was told about Mar tet's
[26:25] existence you know when he was but no
[26:28] it's it's when it's when she's arrived
[26:30] oh right when she's ared had and and the
[26:32] first thing he says is does she have
[26:33] large breasts I mean that is that's bad
[26:35] he disappointed to learn that she
[26:36] doesn't from your father-in-law you
[26:38] don't want to hear it do you no and
[26:40] particularly because he she he keep you
[26:41] know he's he's been a great man for
[26:43] Mistresses so his he had very celebrated
[26:45] mistress Madame D pomidor but she's gone
[26:48] and the new mistress uh the compest
[26:51] dubar who's been elevated to to to that
[26:54] that title um she's a kind of former
[26:57] corisan and and she has it's almost I
[27:00] mean it's a kind of semiformal title the
[27:03] M on um but Mar anet is suppored by this
[27:07] you know she's been raised at about
[27:08] Catholic there's nothing like this in
[27:09] Vienna um and so she she defies Court
[27:12] protocol by refusing to even speak to
[27:16] the uh the contest duari and Mar ter
[27:19] Maria Teresa her mother is furious about
[27:21] this because she's trying to get France
[27:23] to back her in a kind of dispute over a
[27:25] chunk of Poland yeah and she says look
[27:27] you've got to talk to the the the uh to
[27:30] Madame dubar you know I need you to do
[27:32] this so
[27:34] um Maran tonette does eventually uh and
[27:38] she says to uh to to Madame dubber there
[27:40] are many people at firsty today and
[27:43] there's great cheering H what
[27:46] a finally the dam is broken yeah she
[27:49] never says anything else okay um but
[27:52] fortunately for Mar Antoinette neither
[27:54] Madame duberry nor Louis the 15th um
[27:57] along for the world because on the 27th
[28:00] of April 1774 Louis the 15th Falls ill
[28:05] and gossip will say that he falls in an
[28:08] entirely predictable way because uh
[28:10] Madame dubar has supposedly sourced a
[28:14] young peasant girl for him and the valet
[28:17] has brought this peasant girl in and the
[28:18] peasant girl turns out to have had small
[28:20] pox and so he he his whole face ends up
[28:24] a a great suating mass of a bronze mask
[28:29] enlarged by the crust oh myce so so that
[28:32] that thing that you just said there
[28:34] gossip has it or rumor has it that's
[28:36] really really important because this is
[28:38] an age where the the court is kind of
[28:40] hermetically sealed off from Paris and
[28:42] from and therefore from the rest of
[28:44] France and so most people learn about
[28:46] the king and queen through rumor and
[28:48] gossip and this is an age when people
[28:51] are there are pamphlets people are swap
[28:53] in ballads people are you know there's
[28:55] it's a very literate very news friendly
[29:00] Society in a way that has not really
[29:02] existed before and Dominic what is more
[29:04] is that that you say that it's Versa is
[29:07] hermetically sealed I mean it kind of is
[29:08] in one way but in another way it isn't
[29:10] because all the different factions in
[29:12] Versailles are leaking stuff so all the
[29:15] the kind of the the the scandalous
[29:17] stories that are told about the queen
[29:18] and in due course about Mari antoinet
[29:20] you know these are not coming from
[29:22] disgruntled Republicans they're coming
[29:24] from Power Players at the very heart of
[29:26] the Court often from the Royal Family
[29:28] itself yeah um so I mean this the the
[29:32] Wellspring of all the gossip and slander
[29:34] that will overwhelm Mar Antonette in the
[29:36] period of the revolution has been
[29:37] established by by Versailles itself um
[29:41] anyway so so whether he's whether Louis
[29:43] the 15th is is dying because he's been
[29:45] brought you know a peasant Girl by his
[29:47] mistress or not is up for grabs but the
[29:50] what what is clear is that on the 10th
[29:52] of May 1774 he dies the news is brought
[29:56] to the DOA and there's kind of amazing
[29:58] descriptions of how the the the sound of
[30:01] the news being brought to him and of
[30:02] people running to come and tell him is
[30:04] like a kind of swelling tidal W wave
[30:07] power has left the king is dead long
[30:09] live the king and Mar the do is with
[30:12] Mari anet of course he's no longer the
[30:14] Doan he's now Louis the 16th and the the
[30:17] there are various accounts of what they
[30:18] say when they're told the news but the
[30:20] most celebrated one is that they fall to
[30:21] their knees and cry out May God guide
[30:23] and protect us for we are too young to
[30:26] raise they were 18 and 19 that yeah and
[30:29] I think they're aware that France faces
[30:30] massive problems um but Mar Antonette
[30:33] later writes to Maria Teresa her mother
[30:35] and says I cannot refrain from admiring
[30:37] the workings of Providence which has
[30:38] chosen me the youngest of your children
[30:41] to occupy the finest throne in Europe
[30:44] but the question is Dominic what will
[30:46] she do with that power anyone could see
[30:49] that Mari Antoinette would dominate the
[30:51] new king So says John Hardman and his
[30:53] book maret The Making of a French Queen
[30:56] now that idea that Louis the 16th who of
[30:59] course is a very ill-fated King because
[31:02] as most of our listeners will know he
[31:03] ends up having an appointment with the
[31:06] guillotine is it fair to say Tom that he
[31:09] is merely her puppet he is a weaker man
[31:11] isn't he than uh than Marette and and
[31:14] they well let's let's talk about their
[31:16] relationship a bit so do they do they
[31:18] get on are they a happy couple would you
[31:19] say there are significant
[31:21] incompatibilities I think it's fair to
[31:24] say so we could just go through some of
[31:26] them so one is uh attitudes to music
[31:28] okay so Mar Antonette is very very
[31:31] musical she she can play the harp she
[31:34] can play the harps chord she can play
[31:35] the
[31:36] flute
[31:38] um her brother Joseph II who is ruling
[31:41] along with Maria terasa his mother is
[31:43] the great patron of Mozart uh Maran
[31:46] tonette had met Mozart uh when when they
[31:48] were six years old imagine meeting
[31:50] Mozart and you're the same age you'd
[31:51] feel so inadequate wouldn't you yeah and
[31:55] and um so so she is very very musical uh
[31:58] Louis the 16th is
[32:01] notoriously hostile to the Arts and to
[32:04] music in particular and this become
[32:07] again becomes the kind of topic of of
[32:09] Gossip so in the pamphlets it's kind of
[32:11] you know people people laugh at him for
[32:13] his his lack of musicality just like a
[32:15] he's like a British uh culture secretary
[32:18] he is yes yes he is that's ex no
[32:21] knowledge of the Arts or interest in any
[32:23] of music or anything like that he might
[32:25] once have seen Star Wars but that would
[32:27] be the limit
[32:28] cultural engagement yeah so that's
[32:29] pretty much where he is and then of
[32:31] course uh we mentioned the dog that Mar
[32:34] antonet was not allowed to bring into
[32:35] France because it was it was an Austrian
[32:37] dog this dog was called mops and it was
[32:39] a pug she's absolutely this is I think
[32:41] is basically what makes her but burst
[32:43] into tears and fall onto the uh the
[32:44] bosom of the
[32:46] contest yeah is being deprived of the
[32:49] dog but listeners will be glad and
[32:50] relieved to know that she does indu
[32:52] calls get reunited with Mobs so that's
[32:54] that's that's that's Happy Louie hates
[32:57] do dogs and more particularly I'm sad to
[33:00] say as a cat owner he hates cats he's
[33:03] right he's right in that regard but
[33:04] hating dogs is he's not he's absolutely
[33:06] not because he takes it he takes it to
[33:08] an unac unacceptable uh degree which is
[33:11] so as DOA his favorite activity was to
[33:14] um was to shoot cats on the love it love
[33:18] it on the roofs of versa so he's
[33:21] basically he's he's shooting Strays yeah
[33:23] and this apparently is acceptable for
[33:25] sport in Versa um but he accidentally
[33:29] shoots the Angora cat of the compest de
[33:32] mura and when he does this he's actually
[33:34] very upset and he apologizes profusely
[33:37] it's a story that does kind of I think
[33:39] sum up an aspect of his character which
[33:41] is that on one level he's very heedless
[33:44] of the suffering whether of cats or of
[33:47] people out in the in the fields of laf
[33:50] fros profond but on on another level
[33:53] when he's informed of kind of individual
[33:56] examples of suffering he's very upset
[33:57] about it and worried about it I think
[33:59] you're too harsh that saying he's
[34:00] heedless of I don't think he's any more
[34:02] heedless than anybody else sealed off in
[34:03] the Palace of asai would be from right
[34:05] but I think if you're shooting stray
[34:07] cats I mean you just assume this is the
[34:08] kind of thing that a king does or you
[34:10] know it's acceptable sport but when he
[34:12] when it's brought home to him what the
[34:13] implications are then he worries about
[34:15] it and I think you could say the same
[34:17] about his relationship to um the broader
[34:19] troubles out in France that he's not
[34:22] aware of it until he's he's informed
[34:24] about it and then he doesn't really know
[34:25] what to do yeah he's not he's not casual
[34:27] about about it but he he yeah he's he
[34:30] perhaps slightly oblivious to it now
[34:31] he's a very his big thing is hunting
[34:33] isn't it we've had two tremendous
[34:35] Huntsmen on the rest's history recently
[34:36] France Ferdinand and the Kaiser um and
[34:39] uh and kuster and C well three and
[34:41] actually Louis that would be a brilliant
[34:43] Hunting Party with those those four men
[34:45] because Louis the 16th is a tremendous
[34:47] Huntsman he absolutely adores it and he
[34:49] keeps a journal where he writes down how
[34:52] many animals he's killed so the famous
[34:54] thing that everybody says on the day of
[34:55] the fall of the bastile uh 1789 that he
[34:58] wrote in his journal r as in nothing
[35:01] happened today that's rubbish actually
[35:03] the nothing was because he hadn't killed
[35:06] any animals that day so very
[35:07] disappointing day I mean I think it's
[35:09] also fair to say that he's not a great
[35:10] diarist so on the day he meets Mar an
[35:12] tonette he says met Melle doine all
[35:15] right and the day his mother dies he
[35:17] says my mother died okay um like C Le my
[35:21] mother died today or yesterday I don't
[35:23] remember it's obviously a French
[35:24] tradition yeah yeah so he's not he's not
[35:26] a he's not a great diarist h
[35:28] as you said he is a Great Huntsman but I
[35:29] think the one of the reasons why he
[35:31] adors it so much is that he's very good
[35:33] at it so he's you know he's a very good
[35:35] Horseman but when he's on his own two
[35:37] feet he's incredibly kind of Malad um
[35:41] and and socially as well as physically
[35:43] so he hates dancing he's he's not good
[35:46] at kind of chitchat he's not good at the
[35:48] kind
[35:49] of you know all the stuff that people at
[35:51] versai get are doing he doesn't really
[35:54] like it and and basically he has the
[35:57] soul of a naval engineer yeah so he he
[35:59] loves fleets he loves Harbors um and he
[36:03] loves tinkering with locks you know he
[36:05] has his own Workshop oh I love this
[36:07] stuff Simon shamer is brilliant on this
[36:09] so he's got this study hasn't he with
[36:11] all these maps and nautical instruments
[36:13] and he will just sit there with a lock
[36:16] like messing around you know surrounded
[36:18] by all this stuff he's like an a
[36:20] tinkering inventor and actually I think
[36:22] that comes over as quite endearing but
[36:24] so yeah so sha writes the struggle to
[36:27] make the perfect lock so this is
[36:28] something that Louis the 16th is doing
[36:30] was a symbol of sublime appness for the
[36:32] Monarch who repeatedly failed to make
[36:33] things turn as he wished but in his
[36:35] apore priv he moved silently in his
[36:38] plain frock coat amidst polished lenses
[36:41] armillary spheres burnished brass and
[36:43] ories with all the freedom and power of
[36:45] omegas oh I love that I me I mean let me
[36:48] just say one thing right at the outset
[36:50] um for those people who haven't read it
[36:52] or have maybe heard about it and just
[36:53] can't be bothered to read it because
[36:54] it's quite long Simon Sha's book
[36:56] citizens um it's insanely enjoyable is
[36:59] just is just I mean I know it's it's
[37:01] always tempting to be revisionist and to
[37:03] say of a great historian and a great
[37:04] book it's actually rubbish it is it is
[37:07] tiptop it is brilliant every page and
[37:10] has great pictures as well it does so so
[37:12] Mar Antonette would have enjoyed that
[37:13] she would she would looked for the
[37:15] pictures pictures um but but do just to
[37:18] say that there is an alternative
[37:20] perspective on this which is the
[37:21] perspective of of um
[37:24] pamphleteers one of whom describes him
[37:26] as a zombie who spends his time making
[37:29] uh locks and bolts
[37:31] and you may Wonder well where is this
[37:34] tone coming from well I I think it's
[37:38] coming from the Prince Harry of
[37:41] Versa who is the comp of provance right
[37:43] who is consumed with envy and spleen so
[37:47] he is he is feeding all kinds of kind of
[37:49] hostile material out to the pamphleteers
[37:51] but I think it also reflects the fact
[37:53] that the ultimate incompatibility it
[37:56] seems certainly in the early years of
[37:58] the marriage is sexual and if there's
[38:00] one thing that a French King is supposed
[38:02] to do it's to be sexually voracious so
[38:04] it is better to be Louis the 15th you
[38:06] know an absolute goat who was this bl's
[38:09] grandfather by the way just to clarify
[38:11] yeah yeah uh than than than to be uh
[38:15] sexually uh incompetent which is clearly
[38:18] what Louis the 16th is and it it takes
[38:22] them seven years to consumate the
[38:23] marriage and there's much there was much
[38:26] debate at the time and there was much
[38:27] debate to this day about what the
[38:29] problem was so a favored thesis is that
[38:32] Louis 16th suffered from a condition
[38:34] called
[38:35] fosis which basically means that the um
[38:38] the forkin covers the head of the penis
[38:41] which means that it's very difficult to
[38:43] erections become very painful um I I
[38:46] think the consensus now I I gather I
[38:49] don't quite know how they've arrived at
[38:50] this consensus is that this isn't the
[38:52] case Theo has written in the chat thanks
[38:54] Tom and I'm sure many other listeners
[38:56] are also very grateful to you for uh for
[38:58] that very that real that that slightly
[39:00] unnecessary detail it's not unnecessary
[39:03] because actually the the the question of
[39:05] why the king and queen are not having
[39:07] children is a matter of of of profound
[39:10] State and and discussed Tom but at the
[39:12] highest level so absolutely at the
[39:15] lowest level so Joseph II who is the
[39:17] Emperor of Austria and who's Marian
[39:18] tet's uh brother she must have told him
[39:22] about it because he writes to another
[39:23] brother and says I mean I I'm not going
[39:26] to go into all the details but he
[39:28] basically says they do they do try to
[39:31] have marital relations um Louis State
[39:35] and I quot stays there without moving
[39:36] for perhaps two minutes and then um says
[39:39] good night you know withdraws yes and
[39:42] says yeah I was I was omitting that
[39:43] detail because I thought I'm not as keen
[39:45] on the but anyway he says good night
[39:47] thank you very much all good and um
[39:50] they're not actually completing the
[39:52] necessary act and basically they need
[39:55] doctors or courtiers or ever to explain
[39:58] to them well according to tradition that
[40:00] actually that comment you know Joseph II
[40:02] makes that report after he's been on a
[40:04] trip to Versailles and he's spoken to
[40:05] both the king and the queen and the the
[40:08] the tradition is is that he explains
[40:10] what needs to be done to Louis the 16th
[40:12] with reference to a lock and a key right
[40:15] you know as as a he would enjoy the lock
[40:16] analogy I just find the whole thing very
[40:19] slightly implausible but anyway and
[40:20] there's no question that this makes him
[40:22] a kind of object of of of some contempt
[40:25] um which which in many ways is unfair
[40:28] because I think you're right you know I
[40:30] he is dutiful he is hardworking he is
[40:32] conscientious he does develop a
[40:34] reputation for for kindness maybe cat's
[40:38] accepted but there is this sense that he
[40:43] is I don't know he's a bit of a so so
[40:46] Shantal Tom writes for a sovereign the
[40:49] line between goodness and imbecility was
[40:51] easily crossed and I think that Louis
[40:54] the 16th is on that line that people can
[40:58] admire him as or respect him as a good
[40:59] man while simultaneously despising him
[41:02] as someone who is incompetent or useless
[41:05] as a sovereign he's not an impressive
[41:07] man he's not charismatic or formidable
[41:10] man he doesn't Inspire respect he's a
[41:12] probably quite a nice man but a weak man
[41:15] is that fair Tom I think probably yes I
[41:18] think he it's felt that he is he is not
[41:21] of Royal material really but having said
[41:23] that uh whether it's Joseph II or not
[41:26] who managed to explain to him what he's
[41:27] got to do they do finally get together
[41:30] and uh Mar anet gives Louie four
[41:33] children including crucially two sons so
[41:36] a Doan and a spare which is obviously
[41:39] very important and they end up quite a
[41:42] devoted couple um so he does not
[41:44] amazingly he doesn't take a mistress so
[41:46] on one level that of course only
[41:48] enhances the idea of him that he's you
[41:50] know he's not he's not a kind of The
[41:52] Libertine he's not an alpha male he's
[41:54] not an alpha male um
[41:57] but on another he's kind of upholding an
[41:59] almost Bourgeois standard of kind of
[42:01] marital Fidelity he banishes Madame
[42:03] duari who gets packed off um and Madame
[42:06] Dubarry like Madame dador before her um
[42:09] had been had had this Splendid kind of
[42:12] grace and favor residence in the grounds
[42:14] of versailes kind of little Shadow
[42:16] called the petty trior and Louie gives
[42:20] this to uh to Mar antoinet so now it's
[42:23] the queens and she absolutely loves it
[42:26] because
[42:27] you know we've talked about how
[42:29] resentful and hostile she is to the kind
[42:31] of stifling etiquette of Versa the petty
[42:33] trianal offers her a bolt hole Yeah and
[42:36] it gives her the perfect opportunity to
[42:39] vent all her you know qualities of
[42:42] spontaneity and simplicity and impulse
[42:45] that she loves so on that um you were
[42:48] saying about her not reading a book
[42:49] Simon Sharma says in citizens like all
[42:51] adolescent girls of her generation she
[42:53] drank deep at The Well of sentimental
[42:54] literature her library was full of
[42:57] Richardson Russo merer R de Breton Etc
[43:01] now her library was full of them maybe
[43:02] she didn't necessarily read them but as
[43:05] Sha says
[43:07] she um is steeped in the culture that is
[43:10] the most modern fashionable
[43:13] forward-looking cult she's not stuck in
[43:15] the mud she's not a relic of the an
[43:17] regime she's interested particularly in
[43:20] the stuff that people are associate with
[43:21] the the philosopher The Thinker Russo
[43:24] which are virtue simplic
[43:28] nature um a sort of uh as you said
[43:31] spontaneity and a kind of yeah and these
[43:33] are all qualities that will come to be
[43:35] seen in due course as features of the
[43:37] Revolution but Mar Antonette is a
[43:39] massive Enthusiast for them so much so
[43:41] that amazingly in 1782 she goes and
[43:43] visits Russo's grave outside Paris so
[43:45] she's a kind
[43:46] of a pilgrim so you you think she's
[43:49] picked up the ideas but not read the
[43:50] books basically is that I don't know
[43:52] there kind of I I don't know it's I
[43:56] think it's perfectly possible to kind of
[43:58] I she's probably skimm through it yeah
[44:00] or being told I I think that's perfectly
[44:02] possible too by the way I think it's I
[44:03] mean that's how most people actually
[44:05] pick up fashionable ideas isn't it they
[44:07] pick these days you pick them up on on
[44:10] Facebook or in conversation but you
[44:11] don't necessarily read the the
[44:13] Wellspring yeah and she is for that
[44:16] reason very very fashionable because her
[44:20] her kind of her her lack of enthusiasm
[44:22] for fashion as prescribed bysi is it
[44:25] itself becomes the fashion
[44:29] and I mean the enthusiasm for
[44:32] rouso the idea that that one should lead
[44:35] a simple unadorned life uh and that this
[44:38] is the key to
[44:39] Virtue at the petty trior the emphasis
[44:42] is on hiding the presence of
[44:44] servants so in vers it's all about
[44:46] having as many servants as possible you
[44:48] know every time Mar antonet gets dressed
[44:50] the hundreds of of maids surround her to
[44:54] do it in the Petri or is different um
[44:57] and kind of famously she commissions um
[45:01] a landscape architect to design her um
[45:05] an amorti a kind of a rustic Hamlet a
[45:09] rustic Village um that has cows with
[45:12] ribbons on Alpine sheep uh a water mill
[45:16] uh and this of course becomes notorious
[45:19] because it's the idea of a queen
[45:20] pretending to be a shepherdess that that
[45:23] strikes up uh all kinds of unfortunate
[45:25] resonances but it is you she is the
[45:27] embodiment of fashion but only notorious
[45:29] because the revolution happens yeah I
[45:31] mean think you know had Francis finances
[45:33] been in better shape and there's no
[45:36] Revolution this people would be Charmed
[45:37] by this yeah people would say well
[45:38] people would say it was an it's an
[45:39] entertaining Quirk of 18th century you
[45:41] know monarchal life they wouldn't think
[45:43] anything of it yeah and far from saying
[45:45] that the poor should eat cake she's
[45:47] she's very worried about the
[45:49] poor the poor as kind of represented by
[45:53] photogenic ppers who can be given
[45:57] charity by her she's the Angelina Jolie
[45:59] of the 18th century Tom so 1785 she
[46:02] lodges and feeds 12 poor families at the
[46:05] petty trior but there's a quality of the
[46:07] fact that she's very I think she's very
[46:10] impressed by by the sense she has of her
[46:12] own virtue right and she wants people to
[46:14] know about it while simultaneously
[46:16] genuinely being worried about it I mean
[46:18] all of those things can be can be true
[46:21] um and she wants to make sure that her
[46:24] children are raised in this she's a very
[46:25] very good mother a very attend Ive
[46:27] mother so um 1784 the the year before
[46:30] that it been terrible winter um and she
[46:34] provides her children with what with um
[46:36] with what one of her companions
[46:38] describes as a lesson in doing good by
[46:40] bringing in a great kind of pile of toys
[46:42] and then saying you can't have these
[46:44] because we're going to sell these toys
[46:46] and use them to get blankets and bread
[46:49] among children in need that's very
[46:51] that's that that's quite surprising very
[46:54] it's quite celebrity on Twitter yeah
[46:56] very a kenian have that as well so
[46:59] Shantal Thomas describes this
[47:01] wonderfully she she was fond of Charity
[47:02] and never tired of the spectacle of her
[47:04] own
[47:05] goodness so I think again she is the
[47:07] precursor of a kind of modern type of
[47:09] celebrity there kind of celebrity
[47:11] charity The Duchess of Sussex
[47:13] Tom yes well yeah a slight quality there
[47:18] um so so that's on the kind of the moral
[47:21] level but she also creates this kind of
[47:24] new kind of fashion that that is is
[47:27] absolutely repudiating the kind of the
[47:29] stiff formality of versa so she she has
[47:32] this dress maker res ban who shockingly
[47:36] is allowed ready access to her
[47:38] Apartments you know she doesn't go
[47:39] through all the the court protocols that
[47:42] normally restrict people who can see the
[47:43] queen and basically Mar Antonette is
[47:47] kind of discarding all the the the rich
[47:49] silks of the court for flowing white
[47:52] muslins um for kind of simple costumes
[47:56] fresh flow
[47:57] kind of bucolic adornments right and not
[48:00] only that she's not wearing she stop she
[48:03] stops wearing corsets and stays and all
[48:05] those things that kind of really button
[48:07] you up it's all it's very again it's
[48:09] very rouso Going Back To Nature It's
[48:11] Going Back To Nature let I mean shama
[48:13] says you can see the natural line of you
[48:16] can actually see what her body looks
[48:17] like under the dress which of course is
[48:20] not the case with the incredibly rigid
[48:23] and structured dresses that people are
[48:25] wearing 10 or 20 well not they're
[48:27] wearing them earlier they're wearing
[48:28] them at the same time but she is
[48:30] breaking with the rules of a French kind
[48:33] of hierarchical dress absolutely and
[48:35] there's there's a sense you know I said
[48:37] that she Mar Antonette in a way invents
[48:39] modern fashion uh she does that because
[48:42] she is she know she whatever the French
[48:44] say she is the queen of France so she in
[48:47] a sense is the most f for that reason
[48:49] she has the highest profile of any woman
[48:50] in Europe um but also because um she
[48:55] she's a genius at it and the idea of
[48:58] waking up every morning and just
[49:00] deciding what you want to wear you know
[49:02] what clothes you're going to have uh how
[49:04] you're going to do your hair rather than
[49:06] having it prescribed according to rigid
[49:08] structures is something revolutionary
[49:10] and it it's you know literally
[49:12] revolutionary because this is the style
[49:14] of fashion that will come in during the
[49:15] French Revolution and Mar antonet to
[49:19] that extent I think is it's the
[49:21] Godmother of France's modern reputation
[49:24] as the home of fashion and it's you know
[49:26] it's not and we've talked about clothes
[49:29] there is also hair so there's an
[49:31] absolutely wonderful book uh with the
[49:34] great title Mar anet's head by uh will
[49:37] basaw which is about her hairdresser who
[49:40] is a man called M Leona who will feature
[49:44] throughout the story right um and again
[49:47] this is very very shocking that this
[49:49] he's a male hairdresser so not female
[49:53] you know not ladies made he's a
[49:55] celebrity hairdresser
[49:57] and he like uh like Madame ban has ready
[50:01] access to her so there's something very
[50:03] very deer about this I mean it's
[50:06] absolutely recognizable and
[50:09] he gives her a whole succession of kind
[50:12] of
[50:13] unbelievably grandiose hairstyles so um
[50:17] they're called uh the hairstyle that
[50:19] that Mar Antonette is is initially
[50:21] promoting is called leof
[50:25] sentimental which is you know and these
[50:27] are the ones that people will
[50:28] immediately the sentimental poof I mean
[50:31] that's a hard sentence to carry off
[50:32] right it's it's kind of te you know that
[50:34] you can imagine that kind of teased up
[50:37] um gors and plumes and things very very
[50:40] risky because you know there are candles
[50:41] in the chandeliers so if you brush
[50:43] against it it might just go up in Up in
[50:45] Flames there are various kind of styles
[50:47] so you have the the Arison which is
[50:49] unpowdered hair so that's kind of you
[50:51] know Going Back To Nature there slight
[50:53] hint of Going Back To Nature and they
[50:55] kind of curled to the tips and rise in
[50:56] tears so it looks like an arur Hedgehog
[50:59] there's the zephir which is flowers
[51:02] woven into the hair so again there's the
[51:04] sense that you're moving from kind of
[51:06] stiff formality to Nature and then in
[51:10] 1781 M Lena is summoned by Mar interet
[51:14] who's distraught because she feels that
[51:15] she's losing her hair hair you know her
[51:17] hair is thinning and um m is devastated
[51:21] by this and he goes away and he thinks
[51:23] about it and then he comes back and he
[51:25] does something
[51:27] revolutionary he cuts her hair he gives
[51:30] her the CF Al a child's hairstyle yeah
[51:35] and she de he starts to decorate it only
[51:37] with flowers not with jewels and it it
[51:41] creates this fashion for natural
[51:44] hairstyles that spreads across Versa
[51:48] spreads across Paris spreads across
[51:50] France spreads across Europe and she has
[51:52] people who are around her doesn't she
[51:54] she has you use the Expression uh her
[51:56] Squad which makes sound like Taylor
[51:57] Swift but she does have this this cot of
[52:00] very very close friends who will later
[52:02] become like her controversial some of
[52:04] whom frankly are doomed to incredibly
[52:07] tragic and blood curdling ends yes uh I
[52:11] I mean they so so so there are two in
[52:13] particular there's the The dases deak
[52:16] Who uh I mean it's very very beautiful
[52:19] uh Exquisite manners um absolutely adors
[52:23] kind of gossip and Intrigue so I think I
[52:26] think I think I think she it's kind of
[52:29] less Taylor Swift it's more um it's more
[52:33] the Plastics in Mean Girls which I know
[52:35] you haven't seen but which I as a parent
[52:37] of two daughters have seen a lot a
[52:40] brilliant brilliant film and I think
[52:43] that anyone who's seen that film if you
[52:44] think of mar antoanet and the the dases
[52:47] deac as as the Plastics who were the
[52:49] kind of the queen bees in a high school
[52:52] um and then there's there's the pl
[52:54] there's this um sidekick is always
[52:56] trying to make fetch happen the word
[52:58] Fetch and she never does and I think
[53:00] that that that character would be the
[53:02] Press D Lal yeah who is uh very very
[53:06] vapid um she's always she uh so it's
[53:10] there a kind of brilliantly
[53:11] account of her by the compest GLE she
[53:14] never had an opinion of her own in
[53:16] conversation she always adopted the
[53:17] opinion of the person who passed for the
[53:18] wittiest in a way that was utterly
[53:20] unique Whenever there was a serious
[53:21] discussion she never spoke pretending to
[53:23] fall into a trance then she would
[53:25] suddenly appear to snap out of her Ry
[53:26] and repeat word for word as though it
[53:28] came from her what the person whose
[53:30] opinion she had decided to adopt had
[53:31] just said she affected great surprise
[53:33] when told someone had just said the same
[53:35] thing she assured everyone she hadn't
[53:37] heard of it so I think you get there a
[53:39] sense that this is not you know they Mar
[53:43] Anette likes these people precisely
[53:46] because they are not witty they are not
[53:48] brilliant she can enjoy their company
[53:51] inevitably gossip will say that they're
[53:52] all lesbians that they're all engaging
[53:54] in safic rights um the the The Duchess
[53:57] de poc in particular who who becomes
[53:59] widely widely hated but they but both of
[54:02] them are are strongly disliked there are
[54:05] also male guests going to the petty
[54:07] trior of whom the most notorious is a
[54:10] dashing Swedish officer called Axel Von
[54:13] ferson um who is the son of a field
[54:16] Marshal and who had met Mari Annette at
[54:18] a masked ball at the Opera in 1774 when
[54:21] she was still the Doan when she was
[54:23] still the doofen and he hadn't
[54:25] recognized which is obviously a kind of
[54:27] great thrill for for Mar Anette and from
[54:30] that point on their regular visits the
[54:32] two indisputably become close again it
[54:35] is taken for granted that they are
[54:36] sleeping I think this is most unlikely
[54:39] because it's not really in her character
[54:41] you it's not her style no and it would
[54:43] be mad for her to do that um but there
[54:45] is clearly a kind of heedlessness about
[54:48] this uh I mean to have these kind of
[54:50] very close Intimate Relationships yeah
[54:52] and to to kind of um thumb her know at
[54:57] the formalities and the hierarchies of
[55:00] Versa to bring down everything that the
[55:04] contest Denay had represented I mean
[55:06] she's she's building up trouble for
[55:07] herself she there's an amazing quotation
[55:08] actually from her brother Joseph II who
[55:10] wrote to his brother to their brother
[55:12] Leopold and he said she has no etiquette
[55:15] she goes out and runs around alone or
[55:17] with a few people without the outward
[55:18] signs of her position she looks a little
[55:21] improper and while this would be all
[55:24] right for a private person she is not
[55:27] doing her job and that is the issue
[55:29] isn't it that she's not playing the part
[55:33] of a French queen as the French people
[55:36] expect no she's not and I think what is
[55:38] more and even more damaging for her is
[55:41] that she's actually playing the part of
[55:42] a mistress because the petty trior is
[55:46] where the mistress lives and queens are
[55:48] not supposed to live like M Mistresses
[55:51] and
[55:53] so over the course of Louis the 16's
[55:55] Reign going into the
[55:57] 1780s she is um she's coming to be hated
[56:02] as Queens often are hated as kind of you
[56:05] know the embodiment of of of Royal
[56:07] arrogance and of kind of
[56:10] absolutism but she's also being hated as
[56:13] favorites are she's being cast as a kind
[56:15] of a a voracious greedy blood sucking
[56:20] nyphomaniac yeah and the pair of these
[56:23] images are kind of being fused because
[56:27] a mistress is always being accused of
[56:30] extravagance yeah I mean that's that's
[56:32] that's what they're they're there to do
[56:34] you know that and kind of amazingly
[56:37] stories start to be repeated that Mar
[56:39] Antonette is literally maintaining at
[56:41] the expense of the state a a a whole
[56:43] tank full of leeches which is a kind of
[56:46] horrible idea a sort of metaphor yeah
[56:49] and also of course Mistresses are
[56:51] sexually promiscuous and so this is why
[56:54] the the stories that she's having you
[56:55] know safic Affairs and sleeping with um
[57:00] you know Swedish officers and things
[57:02] like that it's why they they have such
[57:04] currenc and the interesting thing about
[57:05] that Tom is that they start I think it's
[57:07] Robert D makes this point that they
[57:08] start in
[57:09] 1774 so 15 years before the Revolution
[57:12] and when she's still only 18 19 years
[57:15] old so very early on these stories that
[57:19] she has this kind of voracious sexual
[57:21] appetite that her lock obsessed husband
[57:24] is not satisfying and that you know
[57:27] there's this kind of extravagance and
[57:30] depravity sucking the energy and the
[57:32] money out of France they start very
[57:34] early don't they and she's never able to
[57:36] shake them right and I and to to
[57:38] reiterate because I think this is so
[57:40] important these stories are not coming
[57:44] from Republican um people who who who
[57:47] hate the monarchy it's coming from her
[57:49] Rivals at the
[57:51] court these are the people who are
[57:53] spreading it and it reflects a culture
[57:55] among the nobility and it it it reflects
[57:59] a I think a character of libertinism
[58:01] that you get at the court that Louis the
[58:02] 15th had exemplified and which you get
[58:06] in in um L Clo's great novel uh
[58:09] dangerous leaon translated the film
[58:11] people who've seen the film I mean the
[58:13] whole thing is about debing people the
[58:16] the idea that the aristocracy are cruel
[58:18] and sexually predatory and of course the
[58:21] the writer who absolutely exemplifies
[58:23] this is the Marquee desad who we did an
[58:25] episode on and there's a sense in which
[58:27] the Marquee dad is is reworking ideas
[58:31] that are very very current in
[58:32] pornography at the time and Mar
[58:35] Antoinette who had refused to speak to
[58:38] to Madame duari because you know she'd
[58:40] been a corisan who had been so unsexy
[58:45] voracious that she you know the marriage
[58:46] hadn't been consummated for seven years
[58:49] she comes to be the kind of the the
[58:52] protagonist of pornographic
[58:56] fantasies that are increasingly
[58:59] revolting and and shocking in the way
[59:02] that the Marque dad's writings yeah are
[59:04] revolting and shocking and listeners may
[59:06] be wondering well does any of this
[59:07] matter and it does matter because it
[59:11] comes to threaten the reputation not
[59:12] just of the queen but of the king and of
[59:15] the monarchy itself the thing is that in
[59:18] the early 1780s all these rumors and
[59:21] stories and Fantasies they lack an
[59:23] obvious Focus they are underground they
[59:26] are being percolated by kind of Court
[59:30] rivalries but then in 1784 there's an
[59:33] absolute catastrophe because Mar
[59:36] Antonette finds herself engulfed in a
[59:38] complete Firestorm of Scandal and
[59:41] actually Dominic it's not just a scandal
[59:43] it's an affair the affair of the diamond
[59:48] necklace and Tom what an amazing story
[59:51] this is thank you so much for that I I
[59:53] think there's only one Expressions given
[59:54] that we are in 18th century France that
[59:56] was a genuine toward the force and on
[59:59] that bombshell over War everybody ad
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