# Why a Devout Muslim Became a Christian Apologist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAe9hGoT7CQ

[00:00] You know, if you're Muslim and you're watching this, first of all, I want to acknowledge it's very, very hard to question the things that you grew up with, to question if your own parents are going to make it with you to heaven, if to question if all of these things are real.
[00:12] It's true that the internet is giving you access to resources that you would have never had before and that is a blessing.
[00:17] And I want to bless you with what Christ says.
[00:18] He says the kingdom of heaven is for the children, for surely they will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
[00:24] And his children, the beautiful children who are playful and joyful, that you don't need The first thing is you don't need 600 different imams to be translating a bunch of tafsirs and hadith across a bunch of different platforms and everybody has a different view and the theology is actually very simple and the preservation of scripture is the only thing we need to worry about.
[00:40] Shahrukh Khan, you grew up a devout Muslim, but now you have become one of the more vocal Christian apologist online.
[00:49] That is a story we have to hear all about.
[00:52] But before we get into your testimony, we have some time.
[00:55] Let's let's let's start at the beginning.
[00:58] What did you think of Christianity
[01:00] growing up and I really want to know more about your view of Islam when you were in it.
[01:06] So walk us through your theology growing up.
[01:10] Yeah, so so growing up in Islam, it was my full identity.
[01:14] We talked about this before and you know, my father seeing 9/11 happen from the very windows of his office was a very important part in my life and when I was 3 and 1/2 I was told, "Hey, this is going to be who you are and you're going to defend Islam here in the West and just show America that we're not these this radical Islamist terrorist organization, right?
[01:32] That Muslims are amazing people and beautiful people.
[01:36] And I had no problem doing that.
[01:39] My my family growing up, we were you know, we ended up becoming very wealthy.
[01:42] My dad had a very successful career working on Wall Street and I saw just doctors and lawyers and Muslim brothers and sisters who were successful and loving and giving and just so charitable with their time, you know, the people of the Muslim people are amazing people, you know, I understand I stand against Islam as an ideology now, but the Muslim people
[02:01] Really growing up took such good care of me.
[02:03] Like it takes a village, honestly.
[02:05] And you know, one thing I still wrestle with is that almost like sense of they feel like I'm betraying them when in reality I just want to lead them to truth.
[02:11] It gets really heavy there.
[02:13] But my view of Islam growing up was this has to be right because of the fruit that I saw in people's lives.
[02:20] And the truth was I never had an encounter with any real Christians and I talk about this a lot, but it took a lot of time for my family to be in invited into Western American homes.
[02:31] You know, many people after 9/11 just sadly weren't too open to to the Muslim people.
[02:38] We lived in New York and so my my hometown growing up was a bunch of police officers, a bunch of firemen, a bunch of blue collar guys.
[02:47] And so after 9/11 it was like people as much as we don't want to admit it, they treated us very, very differently for our religion.
[02:54] And the sad thing about that was it made us double down, triple down, sometimes even quadruple down on our identity.
[02:59] We're like, now we
[03:01] have to learn the Quran and the hadith
[03:05] and study Sharia law extremely well
[03:07] because this is the pillar of light.
[03:08] Like we stand so against you know,
[03:10] whatever pagan influences in America.
[03:12] And this was the language and I'm saying
[03:13] this because this is the language that I
[03:15] grew up in that we actually still see
[03:17] today. It's all over the Islamic scene
[03:19] here in the US. And so
[03:22] a powerful reverent view of Islam is
[03:24] what I would say. I loved it growing up.
[03:26] It made sense to me.
[03:28] I hadn't been challenged by anything
[03:30] else otherwise. My whole family, the
[03:32] Muslim community was so tight um
[03:35] just as tight as it is today, you know,
[03:37] I always say this recently, but you
[03:39] know, Muslims are 1.5% of the US
[03:41] population, but you see how much impact
[03:43] they can have when everybody comes
[03:45] together and that community aspect was
[03:47] so real. And I always say I I pray that
[03:50] the church can get to this this level
[03:52] because when I would go to the mosque,
[03:54] if I needed help, I didn't go to my
[03:55] doctors, I didn't go to like my school
[03:58] counselors, I went to the mosque because
[04:00] five times a day there were doctors and
[04:02] surgeons and lawyers, people making millions of dollars who were there to help the ummah, the Muslim community.
[04:08] Right?
[04:08] And that same level of humility was there in Islam because side by side you'd have a neurosurgeon praying next to the homeless guy who had to walk in the masjid with bags, who had to shower there.
[04:20] And they would both be face on the floor reverent for God.
[04:22] And growing up as a child, you see this.
[04:24] You see the humility of the strong, powerful men.
[04:27] You think, "I can't wait to be like that."
[04:29] And so for me growing up in Islam, I was like, "This has to be it."
[04:34] Now, my view of Christianity was foul.
[04:37] It was foul because we're not told to just respect other religions.
[04:39] We are not.
[04:41] If If you are, I would say maybe you're in a more secular, you know, mosque than you should be in.
[04:46] But the truth was we were conditioned at a very young age to counter any religion, you know, and it's the church is told the same thing, you know, we stand against all falsehood.
[04:54] Now, I still believe that as a Christian, but Islam has that same value that the Jewish people, the Christians, the pagans, the seculars, anybody, any pagan influence, any false
[05:05] religious influence, we are told to stand against.
[05:09] And that's why at a young age we're told to be the smartest, the wisest.
[05:13] We're forced into not forced, but we're we're told to go into engineering fields, doctor fields.
[05:17] We're trained at a young age to get into politics, you know, we're told to engage the world fully with our Muslim faith.
[05:23] And the Christians were no exception, you know, they were the people who got the Messiah wrong and he was just a prophet and you know, we respect them and we love them as Muslims to bring them into Islam, but at the core it was hate because we saw this Christian.
[05:39] Now, and I'm giving I'm giving you the raw perspective here of what it was like growing up because this is super important for the church to understand.
[05:44] Very important.
[05:46] Muslims especially here in the West and I thought this way too when I was delivered of this by the grace of God is we associate Christianity with like American nationalism that is Christless, like a Christless conservatism, which is bad.
[06:00] Anything not kingdom of Christ I think should be condemned or fixed or, you know, blessed.
[06:03] And so that perspective really made me
[06:07] hypercritical of Christians because when I was Muslim, I would look at my Christian brothers and my sisters and my um you know, my friends really.
[06:15] I call them brothers and sisters now, but I would look at my Christian fraternity brothers and my professors and I would surgically analyze them because as a Muslim you're just waiting for them to screw up one thing so that you can lead them to Islam.
[06:26] Every We were told, "If you are not giving dawah" and dawah is the act of bringing somebody into Islam.
[06:33] "If you're not giving dawah, you are getting dawad by the Christians."
[06:37] That's what they said to us at a young age.
[06:39] And this is heavy indoctrination.
[06:40] So that was like the viewpoints of it, man.
[06:43] Well, that is that is very, very helpful.
[06:45] And I'm going to ask you another question that's very big and obviously we don't have time to go into the into the whole thing, but I think it's really important for us to understand maybe the theology of what Islam teaches.
[06:57] Now, obviously, you know, if if you were to ask me like, "What's What does Buddhism teach?"
[07:01] I could give you a caricature, but I don't really know like the the ins and outs and everything like that.
[07:06] You know, my my dad's side of the
[07:08] family is Hindu, so I could do a little bit a better job.
[07:12] You know, I've been to Israel, you know, dozens of times, so I could do a pretty decent job of Judaism.
[07:16] And I think I could do a decent job of Islam, but again, it would be coming up from an outsider's perspective.
[07:22] You were in it.
[07:24] Now, obviously you could give, you know, days long talks on the theology of Islam,
[07:28] but maybe just what would be helpful for the outsider, for the Christian, for the American, for the European, what should we know about like what is Islam really about?
[07:39] What does it truly believe?
[07:40] You know, obviously we see people circling a black box in Mecca and it's just like what what is happening here?
[07:47] Like it it doesn't really resonate to a lot of folks.
[07:50] So I I know that you could go on for a long time, but just help us understand what does Islam teach?
[07:55] Yes.
[07:58] So there's three core things that I really want to show you here.
[08:00] The first thing is what we call tawhid and tawhid is the oneness, the unbegottenness of God.
[08:04] And it's very similar to rabbinical
[08:10] Jewish understanding of who Yahweh was, but then they still deny the Messiah.
[08:14] So it's really like God is one and he is one and he does not have a son.
[08:18] And that is the number one.
[08:20] It's simple, it's meant to be simple and it's supposed to be just indistinguishable from anything.
[08:25] And the truth about that is most and every Muslim, if you're if you're evangelizing Muslims, if you're engaging Muslims, if you have a heart for devout Muslim loved ones, you need to understand that the authority in a Muslim's life is the Quran, okay?
[08:37] So everything.
[08:40] It's not a political ideology, it's not a socialistic ideology, it's not a it's a belief system, yes, but it all comes under one umbrella and it's the Quran.
[08:47] This is the infallible word of God in Arabic in my hands right here.
[08:50] That's what Muslims believe.
[08:51] So everything in their life doesn't appeal to American Western values, doesn't appeal to European values, it appeals to Islamic values.
[09:00] It's a theological text-based religion.
[09:02] And in that text-based religion, which, you know, the Bible is a text-based, you know, religion as well for us, too.
[09:08] It's important to understand that.
[09:10] In this religion we want to talk about original sin.
[09:13] And so if you learn one thing about Islam, let it be this, that they rewrite the story of Adam and Eve.
[09:17] And in Adam and Eve, they are actually in heaven.
[09:19] And the fall happens in heaven, not on earth between the four rivers like we know in Genesis, but Allah doesn't have the same heart as Yahweh.
[09:30] When Yahweh sees his beautiful children Adam and Eve and he's like, "Why are you hiding from me?"
[09:36] And he kills an animal and he covers them and he says, you know, like he gives them a chance to come into relationship with them.
[09:43] They cut that entire story out and when Adam eats the apple, all he's given is a repentance prayer.
[09:48] And that is how essentially Islam removes original sin and blood atonement from the entirety of its theology.
[09:56] And if you remove original sin and you get rid of blood atonement, somebody dying for your sins sounds so blasphemous.
[10:04] And my favorite thing to talk about is John 3:16 because as a Muslim when people would give me John 3:16, I'm thinking that is the most
[10:11] blasphemous thing I've ever heard.
[10:13] First of all, Allah doesn't love everybody.
[10:15] He loves the obedient Muslims and he had a son?
[10:18] Allah is unlike anything in this world to ever be created.
[10:20] And to pay for my sins and he died?
[10:22] Blood atonement isn't necessary.
[10:24] So, John 3:16 is the the cornerstone Christian verse, but in Islam it's actually the most blasphemous thing you can say to somebody.
[10:30] And it all starts with Adam and that first fall.
[10:31] And it happens in heaven, right?
[10:34] So, you don't need an earthly savior, right?
[10:36] We're all going to be restored to heaven if you're an obedient Muslim at the end of days.
[10:38] But when you remove blood atonement, it becomes a works-based religion.
[10:42] And so, there's a a very common analogy here you call it we call it the credit card points, but you're basically stacking up credit card points with your good deeds and hope that that's enough for you to eventually get to heaven.
[10:55] But most Muslim understanding believes that if you are a repentant heart, a good loving obedient Muslim from a charitable perspective, um you will make it to heaven.
[11:00] You will.
[11:03] So, that's kind of what you're wrestling with is like, well, most Muslims do believe they're going to heaven and that it's a guarantee, but there might just be some kind of payment in the middle, which I think is one of the first lies
[11:13] of Satan is to make people comfortable with going to hell for a bit.
[11:16] But that's the basic theology there.
[11:17] And then I want to talk about the Kaaba, too.
[11:18] So, the Kaaba believe they believe that the Kaaba was the first temple,
[11:22] that it wasn't actually built by I believe Solomon in the Bible, but Abraham and Ishmael were the ones to travel all the way from Gerar, which is modern-day Gaza, to um Mecca, an 800-mile journey to eventually build this Kaaba.
[11:37] Wait, time out.
[11:39] Real fast.
[11:42] Uh in Islamic theology, Abraham and Isaac or I I guess Abraham and Ishmael, they don't travel from modern-day Iraq.
[11:46] They travel from specifically Gaza?
[11:51] Yeah, so so where where um
[11:54] This is I believe this is synonymous with the Torah, so in Gerar where Abraham resided, that's near modern-day Gaza.
[11:59] Where Abraham who who came from from, you know, I guess Chaldea was Iraq.
[12:03] Yeah, yeah.
[12:05] Okay.
[12:05] But the the thing the thing that you should catch is that when when when Hagar and Ishmael were cast out of Abraham's house, Abraham, according to Sarah's desire,
[12:13] Cast it out um Ishmael and Sarah.
[12:16] Ishmael and Hagar.
[12:19] But what Islam does, and this is so niche, but it completely is it's a it's a kill shot at the claim of the Kaaba being divine.
[12:26] The story of Hagar and Ishmael being kicked out of Abraham's house and going to rest in Beersheba, where the well is, they take that same story and they put it 800 miles south into the middle of Saudi Arabian desert.
[12:39] And it's a very small claim, but that's how they claim that Muhammad was actually an Ishmaelite, which if you're a Bible-believing Christian, you wouldn't even believe Muhammad's an Ishmaelite because Ishmael never went to Mecca, right?
[12:51] According to our scriptures.
[12:53] It's completely unreasonable that infant Ishmael and Hagar went 800 miles south when the journey is clearly to just the desert of Beersheba.
[13:02] And this is some deeper apologetics we're we're getting into by accident.
[13:04] But it it's so important because, you know, what I
[13:06] I I don't mean to cut you off, but it it just seems like it's just little tweaks, right?
[13:11] You're you're mentioning Adam and Eve, Beersheba.
[13:13] Like these little these
[13:14] little tweaks from obviously
[13:16] significantly older text just have been
[13:20] like kind of like, "Yeah, we're going to change that.
[13:21] We're going to change that."
[13:22] Which I find absolutely fascinating.
[13:23] Sorry, you were talking about the Kaaba in Mecca.
[13:25] Go ahead.
[13:26] Yeah, and so if you're if you're a Bible-believing Christian, well, Muhammad, you know, he he ends up taking the qibla, the direction of prayer in his ministry time, from Jerusalem to Mecca.
[13:35] And he claims that Ishmael and Abraham built the Kaaba together and that it's the divine house of God.
[13:40] It's the first temple ever built.
[13:42] And so, that's why they actually pray in the direction of Mecca now.
[13:43] They changed it from Jeru- Muhammad changed it from Jerusalem.
[13:48] And what happened with that, and this is rabbinical law that he changed it from, right?
[13:53] Because at this point it's a post-Christian religion, right?
[13:54] Like Islam comes after Christianity.
[13:56] And so, Christ already comes out and says the temple is within us and that we have the church and the power in the Holy Spirit, but Islam has to rewrite this.
[14:02] They have to harmonize that.
[14:04] And so, they take the Jerusalem qibla and they torrents it towards Mecca and the Kaaba, which is fascinating.
[14:10] And so, you have to ask the question, according to our scriptures, according to the Torah, the revelation
[14:15] to Moses, who built the Kaaba if it wasn't Abraham and Ishmael?
[14:22] My best guess is that it's pagans.
[14:25] You know, and that that would line up with the history of it with the idols being inside of it.
[14:28] It was maybe just a storehouse for pagan idols and it just kind of got rewritten into this divine house of God.
[14:32] And the thing is is that that is a core pillar of Islam.
[14:34] Like if you challenge the Kaaba, you are in trouble.
[14:39] And that puts a very big target on your back because you see how reverent they are towards it.
[14:42] It's so it's one of the most insane things.
[14:43] All right.
[14:45] Well, when it comes to the temple in uh Jerusalem, obviously, as you said, uh Solomon built it.
[14:49] David was not allowed to.
[14:51] It's on the peak of Mount Moriah where, you know, Abraham was going to sacrifice his son Isaac.
[14:57] Uh and then obviously that was destroyed by the the Babylonians in 586 BC, rebuilt by the Ezra-Nehem- Nehemiah generation, destroyed again by the Romans in the year 70.
[15:09] I mean, what the temple in Jerusalem, where it was, what it was is kind of not even a debate.
[15:12] Obviously,
[15:15] you have the Temple Mount, which King Herod built to widen the platform, which still exists to this day, the western retaining wall of the Temple Mount from King Herod.
[15:23] Mhm.
[15:25] Uh there's I mean there are like you know, random Indiana Jones theories, but everyone pretty much agrees the first temple was built on top of Mount Moriah.
[15:32] The second temple was built in the same exact location.
[15:34] Uh the Bible is very detailed in what happened there, what was in there, why it was in there.
[15:42] Um I've always wondered I'm and maybe you don't know this, but I'm I'm seeing if maybe you do.
[15:43] What's inside that black box in the Kaaba?
[15:46] Like what what is it?
[15:48] Well, I mean, obviously you have millions of Muslims.
[15:53] I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, it's called the Hajj.
[15:54] You have to make a pilgrimage.
[15:56] Again, I I I want I I am not an an expert on Islam uh to to make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in your life.
[16:02] Uh but when you get there, what what exactly is that black box?
[16:04] What's inside of it?
[16:07] Yeah, so I I believe it's been cleared out.
[16:10] And the most important thing is what was inside of it before Muhammad took control of it.
[16:14] That's the
[16:15] real question.
[16:17] And the answer to that question is there were over 300 different idols for different pagan gods that were in or around that site of the Kaaba.
[16:25] And that big black stone with the it was there and it was a cube and it was really a center of pagan worship in Arabia.
[16:32] And so, the Quraysh tribe, which Muhammad is from, and this is all throughout Islamic history, the Quraysh tribe where Islam where Muhammad comes from, they saw this black cube and they already had pagan people coming to it as a center of worship.
[16:45] And so, in my mind, if I'm a Muslim, I'm thinking there's this power center here in Mecca that we can control Sorry, yeah, in Mecca that we can control.
[16:55] Well, how do we turn that into Islam, you know?
[16:58] And this is where a lot of pagan influences enter Islam, a lot of superstitions around the Kaaba, around circling it a certain amount of times to get a divine blessing, or running between the mountains of Safa and Marwah seven times uh to to get the blessing that Hagar would have had in Islamic theology.
[17:13] All of these superstitious things come from what was in there.
[17:14] So, right now,
[17:16] Raj, I think it's empty and I think they cleared it out because they can't have anybody questioning what the association is.
[17:21] But beforehand, very pagan.
[17:24] Okay.
[17:24] So, I I I I'm so grateful.
[17:28] Uh you know, I forget who said it, but someone some basically like the best Christian apologists are former Muslims just because uh you guys know what you believe, why you don't believe certain you've you've thought it through, right?
[17:39] You're not just casually strolling into apologetics.
[17:41] Let me ask you this.
[17:43] Uh and maybe if someone would have posed this question to you when you were still in Islam, you know, people say, "Well, what about people before Jesus?
[17:51] Like how were they saved?
[17:51] And obviously, the biblical response would be they were looking forward to the Messiah, uh the lamb has been slain since the creation of the world.
[17:57] Uh and you could you could help people understand how you were saved before Jesus.
[18:04] Um but maybe I want to ask you this question.
[18:06] Before Muhammad shows up, which again, relatively late on the scene, right?
[18:12] Cuz you have, you know, the the Israelites leaving Egypt in maybe 3,500 years ago,
[18:18] The temple in Jerusalem's established 3,000 years ago.
[18:23] Uh Jesus shows up on the scene 2,000 years ago, but Muhammad shows on the scene shows up on the scene like around 1,300, 1,400 years ago.
[18:30] So, relatively like a new-ish kind of uh religion.
[18:35] What what what is the Islamic understanding of everyone who lived prior to 630 AD?
[18:46] That they were always Okay, this is actually so important.
[18:48] So, this is Sura 12:111 in the Quran.
[18:51] And it says, 'In their stories, there is truly a lesson for the people.'
[18:56] Um let me pull it up so I don't get this wrong here.
[18:58] I have it like a little like slideshow here.
[18:59] Well, here's the best part.
[19:01] This is a a longer podcast, so we can finally let this thing breathe.
[19:02] I I I love it cuz usually on on these like CBN newscasts, I'm always like, 'Okay, we got like 10 minutes.'
[19:06] But here, we can let it breathe.
[19:10] So, take your time, brother, and tell us what you got.
[19:13] Yeah, so Sura This is Sura 12:111 here.
[19:15] And it says, 'In their stories, there is truly
[19:19] a lesson for people of reason.
[19:21] This message cannot be a fabrication.
[19:23] Rather, it is a confirmation of previous revelation, a detailed explanation of all things, a guide and a mercy for people of faith.
[19:28] And the way that we understand this is all of the stories of the Old Testament prophets.
[19:33] Muslims believe in this thing called the unbreakable chain that from Moses, from Jesus, there was always an existing prophet of God who had the revelation, which would have been the Torah, that he was preaching to the nations.
[19:45] That was always um always present for them.
[19:49] And that was always the thing that they had.
[19:50] And so, Muslims would believe that if you had a previous prophet that the revelation that they had, which they would say is the corrupted Torah now, the uncorrupted Torah was delivered through prophets to every nation at some point.
[20:03] And that there was something about those people that would have eventually made them righteous with God.
[20:09] So, there were Muslims who existed, you know, Adam was the first Muslim is what they will say.
[20:12] And Adam was made right with God through his his repentance instead of his righteousness and faith alone like they would say father Abraham was here
[20:20] in the Christian values.
[20:22] And so, you you go back all the way to
[20:23] Adam again and it's from Adam on there's
[20:25] always been a prophet to a nation who is
[20:27] preaching just repentance, just the good
[20:29] deeds,
[20:30] just the holy life, and that is how
[20:32] people are made,
[20:34] I guess righteous. And so, Muslims will
[20:36] also say that even if you weren't quote
[20:39] unquote Muslim, if you do X, Y, and Z
[20:41] and you believe in a God, well, you're
[20:42] technically already Muslim, which isn't
[20:44] true, but they'll use that to bring
[20:46] people into it. And that's the same kind
[20:48] of viewpoint they'll have on the
[20:49] previous people of the past is that if
[20:51] they were righteous in the eyes of God,
[20:52] then they'll pay for their own And you
[20:54] know, once again, there's no need to be
[20:55] saved. You save yourself. That's kind of
[20:57] a key theology thing there, too, is like
[20:59] if you sin in Islam and you just have a
[21:00] repentant heart, like you feel bad about
[21:02] it, basically, and you turn around,
[21:04] maybe kind of. It's super vague. Um
[21:08] You know, I I it's kind of you can't
[21:09] quantify it, right? Cuz in our beliefs
[21:11] there is no way to quantify it. It's
[21:13] like you were made righteous through
[21:14] faith in Christ alone. Come on. All
[21:16] right, let's let's go ahead, yeah. Let's
[21:18] start to to unpack the Christian
[21:22] um
[21:23] the Christian theology that entered into
[21:25] your into your subconscious that
[21:27] obviously led you to this point. All
[21:28] right.
[21:29] Maybe here's a transition question. Um
[21:32] >> [snorts]
[21:33] >> when you read the Quran and obviously I
[21:36] am not again an Islamic expert, but I
[21:38] feel like I have done as much homework
[21:40] as as I as I could. It sounds like
[21:43] especially in the early writings of
[21:45] Muhammad, obviously he didn't write the
[21:47] Quran. Well, I don't want to get into
[21:48] that point. But you can if you like to.
[21:50] Who acted on the Quran? But my my
[21:52] question is this.
[21:53] It it seems like early on in Muhammad's
[21:57] let's call it ministry,
[21:59] he had a very favorable view of
[22:03] Christianity and even Judaism where, you
[22:05] know, people are called the people of
[22:06] the book.
[22:08] I you know, you should trust the
[22:10] Gospels.
[22:12] It almost sounds like he's like, "Hey,
[22:13] like you got you you Christian, you
[22:15] people of the book, I'm I'm same same."
[22:19] And then it goes like
[22:21] real violent. I think Sura 9 is the last
[22:23] one. Mhm. Where it's like kill the
[22:25] unbelievers, the rocks will cry out,
[22:27] there's a Jew behind me. It's like,
[22:28] "Whoa, Muhammad, like chill out, bro."
[22:30] But what is the what is the Islamic view
[22:35] of Christians and Jews because it sounds
[22:39] like if you read certain parts of the
[22:40] Quran, Muhammad himself has a really
[22:44] favorable view of the Gospels.
[22:48] Yes. So, Muhammad, he loves the Torah
[22:51] specifically and the Gospels. And what
[22:53] you'll see and you can relate this to
[22:55] current times as well, however you want.
[22:57] I'll let you guys do that, but
[22:58] there's two eras of Muhammad. I don't
[23:00] You say ministry, his his
[23:03] his work, whatever he did. Um
[23:05] he had two eras of it. So, he had the
[23:06] Meccan period of his work and he had the
[23:09] Medinian period of his work. And in
[23:10] Mecca, he was a he was a prophet in
[23:13] Islam's worldview who
[23:16] he was the first Arab Gentile
[23:19] essentially to look at the Torah and
[23:22] say, "This is reverent. This is good.
[23:23] This is the word of God." And so, when
[23:24] he brought that to the early Christian
[23:26] areas or Jewish areas of Saudi Arabia,
[23:29] they said, "I can't believe that this
[23:31] random pagan Arab has so much reverence
[23:33] for our books, our scripture. That's
[23:36] never happened before." And so, he was
[23:37] getting this almost affirmation from the
[23:39] early church and the early Gospels and
[23:41] the early Sorry, the early
[23:43] synagogues as well because he was one of
[23:45] the first people not inside of the
[23:47] tradition already to look at their
[23:49] teachings and say, "There is one God. I
[23:51] don't I reject the pagan gods and your
[23:53] scriptures are correct." And this gets
[23:55] recorded as divine revelation as if
[23:57] Allah is speaking through him, but the
[23:59] truth is when he gets to Medina and he
[24:01] starts getting power and influence and
[24:04] wealth and status and people like know
[24:06] him,
[24:07] that's when he starts getting a little
[24:08] violent because now he doesn't need
[24:10] people he doesn't need to in his small
[24:12] numbers get people to agree with him to
[24:14] validate him and make him stronger. He
[24:16] already has that power because he's won
[24:18] over so many people. So, Sura 9
[24:20] specifically was a Medinian verse a
[24:22] Medinian Sura. And if you separate the
[24:24] Quran, you know, the Quran's not written
[24:26] in chronological order. It's written in
[24:28] order of longest to shortest. And so, if
[24:30] you actually separate those two between
[24:31] the Meccan verses when he was small and
[24:33] needed help versus the Medinian verses,
[24:36] which is when he had power and
[24:37] authority, the violence is so clear. And
[24:40] you can see when he actually gains power
[24:42] in his at the at the tail end of his
[24:44] life,
[24:45] it's very violent. It's because they're
[24:47] recording these events in history of him
[24:49] and his armies, you know, going after
[24:51] the Jews and the Christians of the area
[24:53] and converting them. It's convert or
[24:54] die, you know, come to Islam or be our
[24:56] slave.
[24:57] And that's kind of the the history
[24:58] behind that. It's there's a separation
[25:00] between the Mecca and the Medinian
[25:01] place. Okay, so Shuaib, you your
[25:04] identity was wrapped up in Islam. You
[25:07] come from an Islamic background, an
[25:09] Islamic family, and you know, I've again
[25:12] being half Indian and and a lot of Hindu
[25:14] influences that I I was exposed to. At
[25:18] least in the United States, if you leave
[25:21] Hinduism, from my experience, and you
[25:23] follow Jesus, there's like a
[25:26] okay. There's like a even even with my
[25:29] my Hindu family to this day, I'm like,
[25:31] "Hey, like Jesus." They're like,
[25:33] "Adam on, bring him on, too. Christmas,
[25:35] that that that works for us." It's not
[25:37] that like harsh break.
[25:40] Um but in Islam, obviously there's it's
[25:43] to say a harsh break would be quite the
[25:45] understatement. Most people I've talked
[25:46] to who have left Islam for Christianity
[25:49] don't talk to their family anymore. I
[25:50] mean, this is, you know, in parts of the
[25:52] Middle East, I've known people that have
[25:54] been severely beaten. Um
[25:56] severely beaten. Um this is not this is
[25:59] not fun and games. This is a very
[26:01] serious thing.
[26:02] So, you had every reason in the world
[26:06] not to see Jesus for who he said he
[26:08] actually was, for who he really is.
[26:11] How did your worldview start to crack?
[26:15] Yeah, and
[26:16] the that's something one thing that I
[26:18] really want to emphasize is when people
[26:20] question why I left Islam, I had no
[26:22] reason to. Like I left behind a Muslim
[26:25] wife who was going to be a doctor that I
[26:26] had lined up for me. I had my father's
[26:27] seven-figure businesses. I had my
[26:29] friends, my family, my community, all
[26:31] the things that would make a man
[26:32] successful in his 20s like I was, I had
[26:35] to lay down. I had to bear my cross and
[26:37] die to that version of myself. And in
[26:39] Jesus' name, I'm so happy that that
[26:40] convicted me. What broke my worldview
[26:43] was leaving two things. Was leaving the
[26:46] indoctrination one help was helpful. Was
[26:49] I lost the trust in my family and they
[26:51] lost the trust in me. It went both ways
[26:53] because I started questioning their
[26:54] beliefs and they never had somebody
[26:56] question it with the intent or the
[26:57] personal relationship of a son.
[26:59] Um
[27:00] to really question them. It was so
[27:01] offensive to them. But when I realized
[27:03] they didn't know what they stood for and
[27:04] they didn't have the answers to the hard
[27:05] questions I was asking, I lost trust in
[27:07] really the whole world. And there was a
[27:09] point in my college career where I was
[27:10] just in the library just reading as much
[27:12] literature as I possibly could, um
[27:15] atheist sources, agnostic sources,
[27:17] Christian sources, Jewish sources,
[27:18] Islamic sources, trying to figure out
[27:20] what was happening. And the cracks,
[27:22] there wasn't one major crack, but there
[27:25] was thousands and I mean thousands of
[27:28] cracks that happened when I'm reading my
[27:30] Bible and I'm reading the Quran and I'm
[27:32] reading them side by side and I'm I'm
[27:34] I'm aware of the logical fallacies I
[27:36] had. So, I'm like not really
[27:39] I'm not convinced that I should read it
[27:40] with an argument in mind. I'm reading it
[27:41] as objectively as possible. And I'm
[27:43] reading the Quran that says, "Oh, we
[27:45] love all these prophets. We love Issa.
[27:48] We love Moses and Joseph and and David
[27:51] and and everybody." And then I'm reading
[27:53] the Torah version of these things and
[27:55] the Old Testament version and the New
[27:56] Testament version and I'm like, "These
[27:58] are completely different books. So, like
[28:00] what's going on here? Like you can't
[28:03] have both. There is no coexist with
[28:04] this." And I realized this and it
[28:06] shattered my worldview cuz I'm like,
[28:08] "We are lying to each other as Muslims
[28:10] and Christians doing interfaith
[28:11] dialogue. We believe the other person is
[28:14] not going to make it to heaven. We
[28:15] believe that Muslims are actively
[28:17] denying Christ." And Muslims believe
[28:18] that Christians are
[28:20] idolaters and polytheists. And I'm
[28:22] reading both books and I'm like, "This
[28:24] is some of the most insane stuff ever."
[28:26] And we can dive for hours into these
[28:28] details. Um
[28:30] but there's a few things in it that just
[28:32] really stood out to me and it's really
[28:34] just the prophet stories. There's so
[28:35] many prophet stories in the Quran that
[28:38] completely are rewritten and you have to
[28:41] ask
[28:42] either the Jews corrupted the Torah
[28:45] scrolls, you know, as early as the Dead
[28:46] Sea scrolls before Christ in thousands
[28:49] of ways and got every synagogue from
[28:52] Spain to India to change their Torah
[28:55] scrolls in the exact same way,
[28:57] or Muhammad just got it wrong. What's an
[28:59] easier thing to believe, you know? And
[29:01] when that foundation was really laid
[29:02] upon me, I I started questioning
[29:04] everything and it was one of the hardest
[29:06] things I've done in my life. It was
[29:07] extremely hard to deconstruct your
[29:10] beliefs as a 20-something-year-old guy
[29:12] with not a lot of support, not a lot of
[29:14] religious friends, not a lot of mentors
[29:16] because you left them when Islam wasn't
[29:18] your worldview anymore. It was It was
[29:20] literally a hellhole. I I wouldn't wish
[29:21] it on anybody. And I know that there's
[29:23] persecution like I'm blessed to go
[29:25] through all that. Like I'm happy that I
[29:26] had a library with Christian literature
[29:28] in it. I'm happy that my family still
[29:29] has a house key for me, right? Like I'm
[29:33] grateful that I am not in Egypt or Yemen
[29:35] or Sudan or Nigeria right now where the
[29:38] the Muslim
[29:40] the the people who claim to be Muslims
[29:41] are heavily persecuting anyone who's
[29:43] Christian. The the the the idea that I
[29:46] can freely practice my faith and
[29:48] evangelize my faith here in the US is
[29:50] something I will never ever take for
[29:52] granted ever again because I did before
[29:55] and I didn't realize now being present
[29:56] to the global impact of the Christian
[29:58] world what's what we're going through as
[29:59] a global community as a global church.
[30:02] Um
[30:03] you know, I there's a reason we're
[30:04] standing against this so hard. But to
[30:06] answer your question, the crack was
[30:08] without an argument in mind reading the
[30:11] Quran, reading my Bible, and looking at
[30:14] every single detail that was different
[30:16] and thinking this is this is
[30:18] incomprehensibly like different. Like
[30:20] you can't you can't harmonize this.
[30:22] Somebody had to rewrite one of them and
[30:23] the evidence is very very strongly in
[30:26] sense of the Bible.
[30:27] Okay, so obviously when you start
[30:29] questioning Islam you get uh you know,
[30:32] people trying desperately to make sure
[30:34] that you don't go down that road. In my
[30:36] experience uh again, surface level
[30:38] experience when it well, I mean not
[30:40] surface level. I've I've obviously uh
[30:42] done a lot of these uh interviews. is
[30:44] that there is a
[30:46] there's a a concept that I see in Islam
[30:49] of like stop questioning. Stop
[30:51] questioning. Uh you you almost almost
[30:54] asking
[30:55] uh for clarification is almost looked
[30:57] down upon. Um
[30:59] and you know, that's just from my
[31:00] experience talking to many former
[31:02] Muslims.
[31:04] versus Jesus which is like
[31:06] come and see. Knock, ask, the door will
[31:09] be open. Like it's like hey hey Thomas,
[31:10] like look at my hands and my sides. Like
[31:12] not like re- rebuke for even
[31:15] questioning. It's it's quite the
[31:17] opposite. Um
[31:19] man, there's just so much so much I want
[31:21] to talk to you about. Yeah. All right,
[31:22] let me let me let me let me ask you
[31:23] let's let's start here. Let's let's
[31:24] start getting right for the for the meat
[31:25] of the subject. Um
[31:28] let's say there's someone watching this
[31:30] that has coming from an Islamic
[31:32] background like you were
[31:35] but they're starting to question. Right?
[31:36] For the first 1,400 years of Islam there
[31:39] were no
[31:41] opposing views allowed. Right? If you
[31:43] were a Christian missionary showing up
[31:45] in the Arabian Peninsula in 1612
[31:48] and you start doing work
[31:51] and it starts going well for you, it's
[31:52] going to very quickly start going poorly
[31:54] for you because you're going to be
[31:55] killed. Or in places like you you
[31:57] mention it in Sudan or Iran or anywhere
[32:02] it's not going to go well for you if it
[32:03] starts going well for your ministry. Um
[32:06] but for the first time in 1,400 years
[32:07] there's this thing called the internet
[32:10] where now
[32:11] all the information's out there, right?
[32:14] What are some things that you think
[32:17] would be helpful? Again, here's here's
[32:19] here's what I love and I think this is
[32:20] an important clarification before I
[32:22] finish the question. You're not coming
[32:24] from this from a place of dunking on
[32:26] people. You're not trying to to hashtag
[32:29] own anybody. You realize how sensitive,
[32:32] how painful
[32:34] even allowing yourself to listen to this
[32:36] podcast can be for someone from an
[32:39] Islamic background. Right? If and
[32:41] personal personal anecdote, if I were
[32:43] presented with evidence that hey, Jesus
[32:45] of Nazareth never existed, uh you know,
[32:48] there was no temple in Jerusalem,
[32:50] Hezekiah, David made up people, that
[32:52] would really mess with me. And I
[32:55] understand that that would be really
[32:56] sensitive.
[32:57] Going a- as as tangent to the tangent,
[32:59] there are archaeological
[33:01] for all of that stuff. But anyway, going
[33:03] back to that. Um what would have been
[33:06] helpful things to hear to help to have
[33:09] had explained to you uh when you were
[33:12] starting to question Islam?
[33:15] Okay, and this is going to The first
[33:17] thing is what and this is you can
[33:20] consider this a rebuke to the Western
[33:21] church, but what the Western social
[33:23] media church is doing to Islam right now
[33:26] is very
[33:28] uncharitable. It's very uninformed.
[33:31] There's a lot of ways, you know, 1 Peter
[33:33] 3 it talks about always defending the
[33:35] hope in your heart and doing so with
[33:36] grace and mercy, but the verse before
[33:38] that says to revere Christ as Lord. And
[33:40] what that really means is if you are
[33:42] going to challenge somebody's faith
[33:45] you shouldn't be doing it as a Christian
[33:48] if you cannot reconstruct it with some
[33:50] some kind of biblical principle, some
[33:52] kind of biblical environment to to grow
[33:55] on. And that's why I would say the only
[33:57] way to you know, if you're Muslim and
[33:58] you're watching this, first of all, I
[33:59] want to acknowledge it's very very hard
[34:01] um to question the things that you grew
[34:03] up with, to question if your own parents
[34:06] are going to make it with you to heaven,
[34:07] if to question if all of these things
[34:09] are real. I mean, it's hard to wrestle
[34:11] with and it's true that the internet is
[34:13] giving you access to resources that you
[34:15] would have never had before and that is
[34:16] a blessing. And I want to bless you with
[34:18] what Christ says. He says the kingdom of
[34:20] heaven is for the children for surely
[34:22] they will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
[34:24] And his children, the beautiful children
[34:25] who are playful and joyful, who the
[34:27] scriptures are meant for the even the
[34:29] children to understand that you don't
[34:31] need The first thing is you don't need
[34:32] 600 different imams to be translating a
[34:34] bunch of tafsirs and hadith across a
[34:36] bunch of different platforms and every
[34:37] has a different view and the theology is
[34:39] actually very simple and the
[34:41] preservation of scripture is the only
[34:43] thing we need to worry about. And so
[34:45] there is a lot of noise out there if
[34:46] you're Muslim. The only thing you need
[34:48] to worry about is is the specifically
[34:51] the Old Testament or is the Quran from
[34:54] God? That's the only question you need
[34:56] to ask. You'll see thousands of debates
[34:57] on why would God have a son,
[34:59] trinitarianism
[35:01] all of that theology comes from the book
[35:03] we believe in truly. And so if you can
[35:06] shut out all the noise and you can just
[35:07] focus on hey, the Old Testament versus
[35:09] the Quran. I'll talk about the New
[35:10] Testament in a bit. But the Old
[35:12] Testament versus the Quran, which of
[35:14] those is revelation from God? Well, you
[35:17] you'll not only save yourself For me it
[35:19] was four years of of black hole deep
[35:21] diving research and apologetics. You'll
[35:23] save yourself that much more time for
[35:24] yourself, but you'll actually have a
[35:26] solid scriptural foundation to
[35:29] reconstruct your faith. Because the goal
[35:30] is not to become an atheist after being
[35:32] Muslim, right? The goal is to have a an
[35:34] even stronger faith, to know that
[35:35] there's something better inside which is
[35:37] Christ and the Holy Spirit coming inside
[35:38] of you. That there has to be another way
[35:41] into that. It can't just be deconstruct
[35:43] Islam, slaughter Islam, make fun of
[35:44] Islam
[35:45] do all this stuff, but then we're not
[35:47] we're not discipling them into Christ.
[35:48] And so my advice to a Muslim would be
[35:50] first to go to the pastors, go to the
[35:52] the Christians who have the fruit in
[35:53] their lives, go to the people who
[35:54] understand Islam for what it is, who can
[35:56] actually disciple you into Christ. And
[35:58] then Roger, if we want if we want to get
[36:00] into this, I have a few examples here.
[36:01] We can talk about some of the Old
[36:03] Testament stories that we can go through
[36:05] to really help you see that the Quran
[36:08] wasn't a revelation from God and the
[36:10] true revelation of God what it says as
[36:11] well.
[36:13] Well, okay. So even though we we're
[36:15] we're we're doing a long podcast, I can
[36:17] already tell in the back of my brain
[36:18] we're going to have to do at least at
[36:20] least one or two more long form podcasts
[36:23] cuz there's just so much to unpack.
[36:26] Uh and and that question that you just
[36:27] posed that maybe that'll be in part two.
[36:29] But let me ask you this. Um
[36:31] I think a really foundational thing is
[36:34] uh the Islamic thinking that somehow
[36:38] Christians are polytheist or you know,
[36:40] that the idea of the Trinity is uh you
[36:43] know, three gods. You know, I have a
[36:45] friend who grew up uh in Gaza actually
[36:47] and he used to be made fun of because he
[36:49] said, hey, your God has a girlfriend
[36:51] named Mary. Um and obviously it took him
[36:54] some time to actually work through that
[36:56] and understand the theology behind it.
[36:58] But I think that's maybe the the place
[37:00] where we should start.
[37:01] Okay, let's say I'm coming to you Shariq
[37:04] and I'm I'm I'm accusing you, hey, your
[37:06] God is like uh a God and like this
[37:09] spirit thing and like a Jesus thing and
[37:12] like he's like hooking up with this Mary
[37:13] girl. Like it it's just a mess, right?
[37:16] You you guys are you guys are
[37:17] polytheist. How would you respond to
[37:20] that?
[37:21] I would respond to it I'm a hard edge
[37:23] when I hear that stuff. I I very clearly
[37:25] look at them in the eyes and I'm saying
[37:27] you are completely misrepresenting the
[37:28] Christian faith and that's a straw man
[37:31] argument. You're using out of context
[37:32] things and you have not represented the
[37:33] Christian faith at all. And I jokingly
[37:36] say, cuz I have this conversation a lot
[37:37] with Muslims, I jokingly say, yeah,
[37:39] dude, we all all of us Christians go to
[37:40] church and we're like, we love this God
[37:42] and that God and that God and there's
[37:44] three guys and oh my gosh, like we're
[37:46] polytheist. No, it's it's one God and
[37:49] I always say we can go and spend three
[37:52] hours explaining the Trinity to to you,
[37:54] but the truth is and I I help Muslims
[37:56] wake up. Muslims need to wake up and
[37:58] understand this. They fall underneath
[38:00] the authority of the Quran and many of
[38:01] them aren't even aware of that that the
[38:03] Quran is the authority in their life
[38:06] that all of the theology, we can give
[38:07] them a thousand different theologies, it
[38:09] doesn't matter because they'll never
[38:10] believe it's from God. The God of the
[38:13] Bible, the God of the Torah, the Old
[38:14] Testament and the New Testament, that
[38:16] Jesus Christ is clearly trinitarian.
[38:19] It's it's without a doubt trinitarian.
[38:21] And he explains clearly, you know, the
[38:23] Lord explains clearly how the Father,
[38:25] the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of
[38:27] course the the Trinity being different
[38:29] persons in the same being, right?
[38:31] But a Muslim is conditioned from a young
[38:33] age to completely reject that. And so
[38:36] even if I hear these objections, I'm
[38:37] like, hey, let's just go right back to
[38:38] well, which revelation is from God? And
[38:40] let's let's heat test it. Let's go
[38:42] through every detail and see what the
[38:44] corruption claim really means.
[38:45] Mm.
[38:46] Yeah, you know, uh and and to me that's
[38:49] one of my favorite things, right? Which
[38:51] is um the the claim that the Bible has
[38:55] been corrupted which I think is a huge
[38:58] part of of the of Islamic theology. Uh
[39:00] but one of my favorite things, if not my
[39:02] favorite apologe- apologetics is
[39:05] archaeology.
[39:06] Right? 100 200 years ago
[39:09] before they started digging up in the
[39:10] Holy Land, you can make claims like
[39:12] David wasn't a real person, the Bible
[39:14] exaggerated the uh Israel Israel's
[39:17] ancient kingdom, Hezekiah made up dude,
[39:21] uh Jesus wasn't real. All all of these
[39:24] things and it would be really hard to
[39:26] refute it outside of you know pointing
[39:29] back to to scripture.
[39:31] But we live in this
[39:32] ridiculously blessed time where now I
[39:35] can take you to the Israel Museum and or
[39:37] a myriad of other places and you know,
[39:40] the British Museum and say, "Listen,
[39:42] here is a Here's proof that Hezekiah was
[39:45] a real person. Here's proof that all
[39:47] these other things." He What I love
[39:49] about
[39:50] um a lot of these proofs
[39:53] is that the proofs of these people
[39:56] existing were created by the enemies of
[39:59] ancient Israel, right? You have the
[40:01] Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser, I think,
[40:02] the third, which has a picture of King
[40:05] Jehu in on this thing and it's like
[40:08] 2,700 years later, "Bro, you just proved
[40:11] the existence of King Jehu." Or um
[40:15] uh What was it? The the the Tel Dan
[40:17] Stele. Tel, t e l, d a n, s t e l e, uh
[40:21] was created by um oh
[40:24] uh
[40:25] King Hazael, who was an Aramean king
[40:28] about 100 years after what would have
[40:30] been the rule of David. And he says, "I
[40:32] have defeated so-and-so
[40:35] uh from the house of Israel."
[40:37] And then he says, "I have defeated
[40:38] so-and-so." But instead of saying the
[40:39] house of Judah,
[40:41] he says, "And in this thing is 2,900
[40:44] years old 900 years old it says from
[40:46] Beit
[40:47] house
[40:48] David. In an instant, in 1993,
[40:52] we have archaeological proof that King
[40:55] David existed. And not only did he
[40:57] exist, but it was known around the
[40:58] Middle East that this was the house of
[41:00] David, which which shows you that the
[41:02] Bible didn't exaggerate the kingdom of
[41:04] David. And all that to be said, then you
[41:06] can look at the the New Testament
[41:07] manuscripts.
[41:09] We have thousands of them. No, the
[41:12] Bible's not corrupted. Then you have,
[41:13] "Well, well, well, time out, time out,
[41:14] time out."
[41:15] Obviously, there was just some monks in
[41:18] some German monasteries that Jesusified
[41:22] the Old Testament, right? He was pierced
[41:24] for our transgression in in in Isaiah
[41:26] 53. That was obviously added in. The
[41:29] land of Zebulun and of Naphtali has seen
[41:30] a great light. Obviously, that was added
[41:32] in to Jesusify
[41:34] the Old Testament. Then, we found the
[41:36] Dead Sea Scrolls in 1948, which is an
[41:39] ironic date, if you want to call it
[41:41] that, um that basically show that the
[41:43] Bible
[41:44] has not been corrupted or changed
[41:47] basically at all in over 2,000 years.
[41:50] And the Isaiah Scroll that they found
[41:52] basically in its entirety, which again
[41:54] is sort of like the the pre-biography of
[41:57] Jesus, um
[41:59] was written before Jesus was even born.
[42:01] So, it's just archaeology and the
[42:04] historic uh I I I can and I have gone on
[42:08] for years about uh how the Bible is
[42:11] proven over and over and over and over
[42:14] again by archaeology and and textual
[42:16] criticism. Uh so, I could go on for a
[42:18] long time. But, you know, now you uh
[42:20] Shark have become
[42:22] a Christian apologist. You go out You
[42:25] use your platform, which has just
[42:26] exploded recently, which is awesome.
[42:29] Praise God.
[42:29] >> All that to be said, what are some
[42:31] arguments, what are some things, what
[42:33] are some
[42:34] um
[42:36] I guess yeah, I guess debatable things
[42:38] that you find helpful that you would
[42:41] like to to share about why you now
[42:44] defend the Christian faith?
[42:46] Well, um I'm so glad you asked. And I
[42:48] would actually, Raj, I would like to
[42:49] just read you something from the Quran
[42:51] and I want to get your reaction to it
[42:53] because I think you're going to laugh. I
[42:55] think you're going to really enjoy this.
[42:56] So, this is uh Sura 2 249, okay? And it
[43:00] says, "When Saul marched forth with his
[43:03] army, he cautioned, 'God will test you
[43:05] with a river. Whoever drinks his fill
[43:07] from it is not with me, and whoever does
[43:09] not taste it, except to sip from the
[43:11] hollow of his hands, is definitely with
[43:14] me.' They all drank their fill except a
[43:15] few, and he and the remaining faithful
[43:18] with him crossed the river." I'm going
[43:20] to skip forward a little bit. They
[43:22] advance to face Goliath, and so they
[43:23] defeated them by God's will, and David
[43:25] killed Goliath, and then God blessed
[43:27] David with kingship and wisdom.
[43:30] So, this is a story in the Quran. And
[43:34] when you hear
[43:35] a river test, when you hear the river
[43:37] test of somebody going down to a river
[43:39] and testing an army, and that only very
[43:41] few faithful come to you, Raj, what does
[43:43] that remind you of?
[43:45] The Jordan?
[43:46] It's the So, it's actually the Gideon
[43:48] test. It's actually in Judges 7.
[43:51] In In Judges 7 6 and 7, Gideon is the
[43:53] one who leads an army down to a river,
[43:55] and he takes 32,000 and goes to Gideon
[43:57] 300. Yep.
[43:58] >> Now, most people don't catch this. And I
[44:00] didn't catch it the first 15 times I
[44:02] read it, honestly. And I And then
[44:03] eventually I was taught it, and I was
[44:04] like, "What? They give the Gideon test
[44:07] to King Saul, and then King David just
[44:09] becomes king, and there's no persecution
[44:11] of David through the all the journeys
[44:13] and all the side quests that he has and
[44:15] Saul not accepting him?" And so, what
[44:17] you'll see in the Quran is that it
[44:19] constantly mixes stories. It rewrites
[44:22] certain details of stories. And this is
[44:24] a very key theme of our apologetics
[44:26] system. We call it an argument in a
[44:27] system because we actually run this with
[44:29] every Muslim we see. And now, by the
[44:31] grace of God, having talked to thousands
[44:32] of Muslims, this is what I truly believe
[44:34] is the best way to engage them because
[44:36] we can have, you know, I've gone street
[44:38] evangelizing and I've seen devout having
[44:41] the Quran open in one hand and the Bible
[44:42] open in one hand and reading it and
[44:44] being like, "What This is crazy. What is
[44:46] this?"
[44:47] And so, the the key here is prophet
[44:48] comparison. There's one more, and this
[44:50] is in Sura 28, and I'll just summarize
[44:52] it to you, but Moses goes to a well, and
[44:56] Moses meets these two daughters, and he
[44:59] falls in love with one of the daughters
[45:00] where he serves them, and then he's um
[45:02] obliged to marry them, and he wants to
[45:03] marry them. And the daughter says,
[45:04] "Come. Come meet my father." And then
[45:06] the father says to Moses, "Hey, if you
[45:09] work a service contract for me for 8 to
[45:12] 10 years, I will give you one of my
[45:14] daughters to marry."
[45:16] And if you're an Old Testament Sorry, if
[45:18] you're This is in the Torah, actually.
[45:20] This isn't um
[45:21] I believe uh Genesis or Exodus. Exodus,
[45:24] probably, yeah.
[45:25] Yeah. Jacob is the one with Rachel and
[45:28] Leah, who has to work for the wives and
[45:30] has a service contract of 7 to 14 years,
[45:32] but the exact same story, except 8 to 10
[45:35] 8 to 14, it gets a little mixed up
[45:36] there, is now given to Moses. Moses
[45:39] never has a service contract for the for
[45:40] the women in his life. And this is just
[45:43] two examples of mixed stories in the
[45:45] Quran that the Quran gets completely
[45:48] wrong. And we've taken this to some of
[45:50] the most devout Muslim evangelist
[45:51] debaters on the street, and they are
[45:54] shocked. They've never heard of it. And
[45:55] it comes from I mean, when you're
[45:57] reading the Quran, Raj, these are like
[45:59] three sentences in this book that's so
[46:01] hard to understand, nobody catches this.
[46:04] And there's actually so much more. The
[46:05] story of Jonah. In Jonah in the Quran,
[46:08] Nineveh repents right away. There's no
[46:11] story wrestling with God and denying his
[46:13] calling when God's like, "Hey, just call
[46:15] the nation to repent, they'll do it."
[46:16] And he declines it, and then he goes
[46:18] into the whale, and
[46:20] you know, there's this huge story in
[46:21] that. And then he finally goes back and
[46:23] is obedient, and they repent
[46:25] immediately. And it's a it's a beautiful
[46:26] story of of obedience, right? You know
[46:29] what's profound is when when when Jesus
[46:31] says, "No sign will be given to you
[46:33] except for the sign of Jonah."
[46:35] But if that doesn't actually happen,
[46:37] then there's
[46:38] That's That's interesting.
[46:39] >> That is a phenomenal connection you just
[46:40] made. I actually have I got to deep dive
[46:41] that one. But in In the Quran, Jonah
[46:44] finished to repent right away.
[46:46] There's no story. And so, you have these
[46:48] contradict These are not And so, this is
[46:50] the core of the the Bible's corrupted
[46:52] claim. The Bible being corrupted, once
[46:54] again, is a general claim that we do not
[46:56] tolerate with any Muslims anymore.
[46:57] Where, when, how, why? You know the
[46:59] archaeological evidence that answers
[47:01] when is There's really no time. Um But
[47:04] then how? Let's go deeper. And then this
[47:06] equips us as the church to reason with
[47:08] Muslims based off their scripture. Like
[47:10] Paul said, "I'll become one of them to
[47:12] win them over." Like Paul said, he
[47:13] understood their scriptures better than
[47:15] they did so that he could show clearly a
[47:16] Messiah. And that's a real call that I
[47:18] think has come in my life and our
[47:20] ministry is, you know, who's going to
[47:21] stand in the gap, right? Who's going to
[47:23] be the people who take the burden of
[47:25] Muslim evangelism on their hearts, who
[47:27] will study this thing back and forth,
[47:29] left and right, and know it better than
[47:31] Muslims do? Who would What Christian
[47:32] would know Islam better than Muslims do?
[47:34] And then take that burden to go out to
[47:36] the streets and the synagogues, the
[47:38] public places, and then trust that the
[47:39] Holy Spirit will fill them and speak
[47:42] through them. Anyways, Raj, Woo. I'm
[47:45] getting fired up, brother.
[47:47] Yeah, this is so important. Um
[47:50] Well, there's one more There's one more
[47:51] story. Go ahead. Can This is the most
[47:53] important one. The story of Joseph. And
[47:55] so, Sura 12 3 in the Quran specifically
[47:59] the the biggest um
[48:01] commentaries around this say that
[48:03] Muhammad is saying that one of his
[48:05] miracles One of Muhammad's miracles is
[48:07] that he could recite the whole story of
[48:09] Joseph
[48:11] without fail, even though he was
[48:12] illiterate and had never heard it
[48:13] before. And so, Sura 12 in the Quran is
[48:16] actually the full story of Joseph,
[48:18] except, Raj, guess what? It's not. It's
[48:21] It's completely backwards. From the very
[48:23] first detail, our ministry has
[48:25] researched this deeply, Jacob in the
[48:27] Quran says, "You sons are lying to me. I
[48:29] know Joseph is alive."
[48:32] But in Genesis 37, it says Jacob without
[48:34] a doubt knows his son is torn to pieces.
[48:37] So, imagine writing the story of Joseph
[48:38] with the father Jacob knows he's alive?
[48:41] Raj, there's almost
[48:43] No, there's 945
[48:45] differences in the the story of Joseph
[48:48] from
[48:49] the Quran and Genesis. Wow. And you're
[48:53] reading the Quran and you're saying one
[48:54] of Muhammad's miracles is that he
[48:55] recites the story without fail?
[48:59] It's very interesting, Raj. And and to
[49:01] clarify, Muhammad was illiterate?
[49:04] Yes, this is Sura 7 157. This is
[49:06] actually where they say, you know, this
[49:08] is a
[49:09] a scripture confirmation verse, but they
[49:10] say the unlettered prophet who you find
[49:12] in your Torah. So, they're saying
[49:14] there's a Torah that Muhammad is clearly
[49:15] prophesied in, but unlettered means
[49:17] illiterate. He couldn't read nor write.
[49:20] And the miracle of the Quran, they say
[49:21] this is the infallible word of God
[49:23] because Muhammad, he couldn't read or
[49:25] write. He couldn't definitely couldn't
[49:27] read Hebrew. Um
[49:29] But he was reciting these stories of the
[49:31] prophets, and that's such a miracle.
[49:33] That's clearly the same God.
[49:35] Except you actually read the stories,
[49:36] and this is for every Muslim, don't take
[49:38] my word for it. Open your Quran and read
[49:40] the same details of the story of Joseph
[49:43] in the Torah.
[49:44] And explain to me how that was corrupted
[49:46] because they are completely different
[49:47] stories. And then clearly Jesus was
[49:50] reading the Torah
[49:52] and synagogues it's just wow, that is
[49:55] fascinating stuff. I mean there's there
[49:57] is so much to get go ahead do you
[50:01] >> [laughter]
[50:01] >> Okay, yes please.
[50:03] Okay, this is one more thing surah 9 19
[50:05] 66 12 and then also 1094. Jesus, John
[50:08] the Baptist and Mother Mary in the Quran
[50:11] all confirm the scriptures
[50:13] before them which would have been the
[50:14] Torah that we said the New Testament
[50:15] wasn't written yet. So yes, the Torah
[50:17] even by the Quran standard was confirmed
[50:19] by Jesus and Mary and John the Baptist
[50:21] as well. I wanted to just hit on that
[50:22] last point you said. Yeah, okay, wow.
[50:25] We are going to do a
[50:28] a round two probably around three cuz we
[50:30] got so much to get into a couple of
[50:32] thoughts. If you are really interested
[50:34] in biblical archeology, my favorite
[50:37] YouTube channel is called Expedition
[50:39] Bible with Joel Kramer if if that's you
[50:41] know something that you're really
[50:42] interested in. Expedition Bible I
[50:44] recommend it. But for my brother Shark
[50:47] here, how can people find you online?
[50:49] Yeah, so we have
[50:51] a school community. We have a lot of
[50:52] social media platforms but truthfully
[50:54] the the followers don't really matter. I
[50:55] want to disciple you guys in this
[50:57] because everything I went over today we
[50:58] actually teach you guys and we've been
[51:00] equipping pastors and evangelists and
[51:02] missionaries with this so they can build
[51:04] local church teams and help reach the
[51:05] Muslim world. And so school.com/christ
[51:09] s k o o l.com/christ
[51:12] that is our free discipleship program.
[51:14] We have a free course on there on
[51:15] everything that we do. Everything we do
[51:16] is completely free completely donor
[51:18] backed and so by the grace of God we
[51:20] have almost 5700 people in over 100
[51:23] different countries all learning this
[51:27] um we call it the master key the master
[51:29] key for reaching Muslims
[51:31] and Roger a huge part of that man by by
[51:32] trusting me with you know this this
[51:34] amazing channel. Um it's helped us so
[51:37] much with getting this very timely
[51:38] message out. And on Instagram what's
[51:40] your handle?
[51:41] Real Shark Khan.
[51:43] Real Shark Khan.
[51:44] >> S H A H R I Q right? Yes sir. Two H's.
[51:49] Dude and and and Shark is very active on
[51:52] Instagram so if you want to give him a
[51:53] shout he'll he'll probably answer you
[51:55] back. All right brother again even
[51:57] though we went what 50 minutes
[51:59] round round one of this
[52:01] and if you if you want to please in this
[52:03] YouTube
[52:04] uh uh comment section ask your questions
[52:08] for Shark. We will have round two
[52:10] probably round round three just might be
[52:13] Q&A.
[52:14] So please please please please ask your
[52:17] questions in the YouTube comment section
[52:20] and we'll get to them for round two and
[52:22] three. But as for now Shark Khan my
[52:24] brother the joy of the Lord is your your
[52:26] strength. I can see it in your face my
[52:28] man. Thank you and God bless my friend.
[52:30] God bless you Roger. Thank you.