# What the West Gets Wrong About China | Alice Han & Trevor Noah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w4mYeWGVc8
Translation: zh-CN

[00:04] If you uh watch um videos on Chinese Tik Tok, there's a lot of.
  如果你看中文抖音的视频，有很多。

[00:10] Is that just It's like which is red note.
  是那个吗？就像是红色的音符。

[00:16] That last part.
  最后那部分。

[00:17] Yeah, it's a sometimes I feel like you like you.
  是的，有时我觉得你喜欢你。

[00:24] I could like that.
  我喜欢那样。

[00:26] Eugene. Oh my god, you have such a good accent.
  尤金。我的天，你的口音真好。

[00:28] Oh, thank you very much.
  哦，非常感谢。

[00:30] Yeah. No, seriously.
  是的。不，说真的。

[00:31] Seriously, you could you could go to Chinese TV and be.
  说真的，你可以上中国电视。

[00:34] Oh, damn. Damn. Oh, no. Eugene, excuse me.
  哦，该死。该死。哦，不。尤金，对不起。

[00:37] A wise man once said, "Compiments are best uh when they are shared with others."
  智者曾说：“赞美与他人分享时，效果最好。”

[00:42] So, please, Ellis, please carry on. Carry on.
  所以，请，埃利斯，请继续。继续。

[00:54] This is What now with Trevor Noah.
  这是特雷弗·诺亚的“现在是什么”。

[01:07] Ellis was telling me an interesting story but you forgot.
  埃利斯在给我讲一个有趣的故事，但你忘了。

[01:10] I didn't I no I didn't want to come and repeat it but yeah because also there's one thing about compliments they are better when they are shared.
  我没有，我没有，我不想来重复它，但是的，因为关于赞美，有一件事是，当它们被分享时，它们会更好。

[01:20] just like conspiracy theories or sometimes charges when they're being pressed against you like him too.
  就像阴谋论，或者有时是当你被指控时，就像他一样。

[01:26] He was there.
  他当时也在。

[01:30] Oh my god.
  我的天哪。

[01:30] I've never heard that one.
  我从来没听过那个。

[01:30] Compliments are like conspiracy theories.
  赞美就像阴谋论。

[01:33] I made it up.
  我编造的。

[01:34] No, that's what I'm saying.
  不，我就是这么说的。

[01:34] I've never heard that.
  我从来没听过。

[01:35] I like that.
  我喜欢。

[01:35] I like that's a fresh one.
  我喜欢，这是个新鲜的说法。

[01:38] Alis, go ahead.
  艾丽斯，说吧。

[01:38] Tell him.
  告诉他。

[01:40] Oh, I got So I got the email from you guys two weeks ago and I legitimately thought it was a scam.
  哦，我收到了，所以两周前我收到了你们的邮件，我真的以为是诈骗。

[01:43] I was thinking, why the heck is Trevor nowhere?
  我在想，特雷弗到底在哪儿？

[01:46] A interested in China and B, why is his team emailing me?
  A 对中国感兴趣，B，为什么他的团队给我发邮件？

[01:50] And so I sat on it for two days thinking this is just this is probably another one of those AI scam artists that are just creating random emails out there for people.
  所以我放了两天没管，想着这只是，这可能又是那些AI诈骗艺术家之一，他们只是在为人们随机发送邮件。

[02:01] You okay?
  你还好吗？

[02:01] You've made me realize something.
  你让我意识到了一件事。

[02:03] I think you're not you are not the first, second, nor third, nor
  我想你不是第一个，也不是第二个，也不是第三个，也不是

[02:07] fourth person who said this.
  第四个人说了这个。

[02:09] I need to find a different way to reach out to people then because I because DM cuz many people think that when we're reaching out it's a scam.
  我需要找到一种不同的方式来接触人们，因为我，因为私信，因为很多人认为当我们联系时，这是一种骗局。

[02:17] Yeah, but DMs are the original authenticator.
  是的，但私信是原始的认证方式。

[02:19] Okay. So in the DM, you know it's true, right?
  好的。所以在私信里，你知道是真的，对吧？

[02:22] Alless if if you had gotten a DM from him, would you get the blue tick verified?
  Alless，如果你收到他的私信，你会得到蓝勾认证吗？

[02:26] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. On Instagram.
  是的。是的。是的。在Instagram上。

[02:28] Yeah. Yeah. I never Well, I'm glad you didn't think it was a scam or I'm glad that you were naive enough for the scam.
  是的。是的。我从来没有。嗯，我很高兴你没觉得是骗局，或者我很高兴你对这个骗局足够天真。

[02:33] I did I did due diligence, so I went and LinkedIn profiled the guy and then the team working, you know, your team and Yeah, this is too much work.
  我做了，我做了尽职调查，所以我去领英上查了这个家伙的资料，然后是团队工作，你知道，你的团队，是的，这太费劲了。

[02:41] This is way too much work and I apologize.
  这太费劲了，我很抱歉。

[02:44] No, not at all. I mean, this is so fun to get to come here.
  不，一点也不。我是说，能来这里真是太有趣了。

[02:46] I'm just really a huge fan of of both of you.
  我真的是你们俩的超级粉丝。

[02:50] Oh, I mean I'm a huge fan of your work because you you know as you said you you're an expert in probably one of the most complicated topics that the world has ever dealt with and that is not relationships but that is one of them Eugene but in many ways actually Alice is a relationship expert.
  哦，我是说我是你工作的超级粉丝，因为你知道，正如你所说，你probably是世界上处理过的最复杂的话题之一的专家，那就是不是人际关系，但那是其中之一，尤金，但在很多方面，艾丽斯实际上是人际关系专家。

[03:09] It's just a different type of relationship, geopolitical relationship.
  这只是一种不同的关系，地缘政治关系。

[03:18] UM NO BUT but but you you you are considered an expert on China, which is it I am Am I correct in saying it is one of the most complicated countries to actually be an expert in because of how multi-layered it is.
  嗯，不，但是，但是你，你，你被认为是中国的专家，我说得对吗，因为它的多层次性，它是最复杂难懂的国家之一？

[03:33] I completely agree and we were just talking earlier how my pet peeve is the amount of white people that write about China without having ever gone or lived there.
  我完全同意，我们刚才还在谈论，我最讨厌的是有多少白人写关于中国的东西，却从未去过或在那里生活过。

[03:42] That is hilarious.
  这太搞笑了。

[03:43] and they have a framework by which they analyze China.
  他们有一个分析中国的框架。

[03:46] They think it's the next Soviet Union.
  他们认为它是下一个苏联。

[03:47] They think it's the next Imperial Germany.
  他们认为它是下一个德意志帝国。

[03:49] And and my real stick is you've got to, and you probably understand this better than most people, you've got to understand the culture from the ground up to really understand what the country is about.
  而我的真正坚持是，你必须，而且你可能比大多数人都更理解这一点，你必须从基层了解文化，才能真正理解这个国家。

[03:57] And it's a very complicated, diverse history and culture.
  它有着非常复杂、多元的历史和文化。

[04:03] It's it's entirely relevant in this new technological geopolitical age.
  在这个新的技术地缘政治时代，它完全相关。

[04:06] But I think you're completely right.
  但我觉得你说得完全正确。

[04:07] It's one of the hardest countries to get right
  它是最难被正确理解的国家之一

[04:10] and increasingly so in the last decade
  并且在过去十年中越来越如此

[04:12] because a people aren't traveling in the way that they used to.
  因为人们不再像过去那样旅行了。

[04:15] B Western western journalists aren't living them there.
  西方西方记者并没有住在那里。

[04:17] Some were kicked out and c just in general people have this ideological frameworking and and fearongering about China without really trying to understand it.
  一些人被赶了出来，总的来说，人们对中国存在这种意识形态的框架和煽动恐惧，却并没有真正试图去理解它。

[04:29] Did you see that uh that trip recently where a few US I don't know if they were senators or just Congress people went to China?
  你最近看到那个……一些美国人，我不知道他们是参议员还是国会议员去了中国的那次旅行吗？

[04:36] It was their first time which also shocked me by the way.
  顺便说一句，这是他们第一次去，这也很让我震惊。

[04:40] These are
  这些是

[04:41] It shocked you that Americans left America.
  美国人离开美国让你感到震惊。

[04:43] You both of you don't do that.
  你们俩都别那样做。

[04:44] They have a passport.
  他们有护照。

[04:45] Don't do that, bro.
  别那样做，兄弟。

[04:48] Don't do that. Hey, I'm I had a bento box for lunch.
  别那样做。嘿，我午餐吃了便当。

[04:50] I don't know what that is.
  我不知道那是什么。

[04:51] How close I am to another country.
  我离另一个国家有多近。

[04:53] You you to the culture.
  你你对文化。

[04:56] You had a Korean you had a Korean meal and now [laughter] you're close to China.
  你吃了一顿韩国餐，现在（笑声）你离中国很近了。

[05:01] You're part of the problem, buddy.
  你就是问题的一部分，伙计。

[05:03] Um, no.
  嗯，不是。

[05:07] I I was shocked that lawmakers could go to China for the first time.
  我我震惊的是，立法者竟然能第一次去中国。

[05:10] And I mean like deep into their tenure, like deep deep these people have been serving in Congress forever.
  我的意思是，他们任职很长时间了，这些人已经在国会服务了很久。

[05:13] This was their first trip to China.
  这是他们第一次来中国。

[05:15] And then while they were there, they were they were just mesmerized by everything.
  然后，当他们在那里的时候，他们被一切都迷住了。

[05:20] And they came back saying, "Yeah, well, I mean, China wasn't I didn't expect it and I I couldn't believe what they're doing out there."
  他们回来时说：“是的，嗯，我的意思是，中国不是我没想到的，我简直不敢相信他们在那里所做的事情。”

[05:25] And you know, I mean, there's a lot of things.
  你知道，我的意思是，有很多事情。

[05:27] I've got a new perspective on China.
  我对中国有了新的看法。

[05:29] I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
  我当时想，等等，等等，等等，等等。

[05:30] I understand if an idiot like me is living at home and has an opinion on China, right?
  我明白像我这样的傻瓜在家发表对中国的看法，对吧？

[05:35] That's fine.
  那没关系。

[05:37] It's not great, but it's fine.
  虽然不怎么样，但还行。

[05:38] If you are making laws and you're deciding policies between yourself and China, and you know nothing about China, like what are we doing?
  如果你制定法律，决定你和中国之间的政策，而你对中国一无所知，那我们这是在做什么？

[05:48] Do do you know do you mean?
  你明白你的意思吗？

[05:50] Yeah. Yeah. 100%.
  是的。是的。百分之百。

[05:50] it and I love that imagery of of Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, marveling at the the ceiling as he goes into to Beijing during the Trump X she summit.
  我喜欢马可·卢比奥，这位国务卿，在特朗普与中国峰会期间进入北京时，惊叹于天花板的景象。

[06:01] But that really sums it up is I think since co uh people haven't really been traveling to China in the same way.
  但这确实概括了，我认为自新冠疫情以来，人们并没有真正以同样的方式前往中国旅行。

[06:07] Now that's changed in the last year or two because there's now
  现在，在过去一两年里情况已经改变，因为现在

[06:10] visa-free travel policies and and now it's trending China maxing to go to China.
  免签旅行政策，现在正成为中国出行的热门选择。

[06:14] Did that really happen because of a show speed?
  这真的发生是因为一个节目《速度与激情》吗？

[06:16] with I think yeah I think he was he's a huge star by the way in China and I love that that's insane that that happened.
  我想是的，我想他顺便说一句，在中国是一位巨星，我喜欢，这太疯狂了，竟然发生了。

[06:22] but but he's not the only one there's a ton of American vloggers you can see this across YouTube who in the last 18 months have been going to China getting huge views just showing because China compared to Japan is way cheaper and it's one of those underdog tourism destinations.
  但但他不是唯一的一个，有很多美国博主，你可以在YouTube上看到，在过去的18个月里，他们去了中国，获得了大量的观看量，只是因为与日本相比，中国便宜得多，而且它是那些不太被看好的旅游目的地之一。

[06:37] it's been so developed since co the internal domestic ind uh uh tourism industry the logistics the transport so when people go there.
  自疫情以来，国内旅游业、物流、交通等发展得如此之好，所以当人们去那里的时候。

[06:46] They're so shocked that China's not the China of the 2010s.
  他们非常震惊，中国不再是2010年代的中国了。

[06:48] You know, remember the Beijing Olympics and people were talking about pollution and it was still there was so much smog that people were saying they were they were afraid that the athletes [clears throat] wouldn't be able to run, they wouldn't Yeah.
  你知道，还记得北京奥运会，人们在谈论污染，当时还有很多雾霾，人们说他们担心运动员无法跑步，他们担心。是的。

[07:00] Yeah. Yeah. So, it's changed a huge amount even the last 10 years.
  是的。是的。所以，即使是过去十年，它也发生了巨大的变化。

[07:03] And but my to uh add to your point, Trevor, my problem is that they a don't go there and b they
  而且，特雷弗，为了回应你的观点，我的问题是他们不去那里，而且他们

[07:12] Don't really do the hard work of trying to understand, uh, both the intentions and capabilities of the Chinese government and the people.
  并不真正努力去理解，嗯，中国政府和人民的意图和能力。

[07:19] Uh, we'll give you a really good example.
  嗯，我们给你举个很好的例子。

[07:21] So the semiconductor policy that the Trump administration and the Biden's administration put in, they thought it would be very, very easy if to just cut off the hardware side of the AI, uh, development, mainly the chips, and that China would be behind.
  所以特朗普政府和拜登政府推行的半导体政策，他们认为如果仅仅切断人工智能，嗯，开发的硬件方面，主要是芯片，中国就会落后，这会非常非常容易。

[07:35] China would have no hope of ever catching up.
  中国将没有希望赶上。

[07:38] Fast forward a decade, and you know, China's only a couple months lagging behind the frontier models in America.
  快进十年，你知道，中国在人工智能前沿模型方面只比美国落后几个月。

[07:44] Huawei just announced that by, uh, in the next couple years, it will do under 2nm chip production, which is as competitive as TSMC.
  华为刚刚宣布，嗯，在未来几年内，它将实现2纳米以下的芯片生产，这与台积电一样具有竞争力。

[07:53] That I think is so different from what people would have expected because they're not going to China.
  我认为这与人们的预期大相径庭，因为他们没有去中国。

[07:58] They're not understanding that, uh, what's actually happening at the government level, but also in in the companies, the companies like Huawei, like, uh, Smick, which is another chip company, Alibaba, uh, ByteDance, they're, they're hugely innovative.
  他们不理解，嗯，政府层面实际发生的事情，但也在公司层面，像华为这样的公司，像，嗯，中芯国际，另一家芯片公司，阿里巴巴，嗯，字节跳动，它们具有巨大的创新能力。

[08:14] companies not just the kind of imitative China that we so used to.
  公司不只是我们 so 习惯的那种模仿的中国。

[08:18] Well I I think I think it's because people keep an idea of a place or a people as they first learned of them.
  嗯，我认为，我认为这是因为人们对一个地方或一群人的印象停留在他们最初了解的时候。

[08:28] Mhm. And I think we're all guilty of this in some way, shape, or form.
  嗯哼。而且我认为我们或多或少都犯了同样的错误。

[08:31] Like in South Africa, one of the main things people would think about when they think about China is fake goods.
  比如在南非，人们想到中国时，主要会想到的是假冒商品。

[08:35] Yeah. You know what I mean?
  是的。你明白我的意思吗？

[08:36] Hong Kong.
  香港。

[08:37] I'm a Hong Kong.
  我是香港人。

[08:38] No, no, no. I would have thought.
  不，不，不。我会想到。

[08:40] What would you have thought?
  你会想到什么？

[08:41] Bruce Lee.
  李小龙。

[08:42] I mean, fine. Carry on. But, but no, but I'm serious.
  我的意思是，好吧。继续。但是，但是不，但是我是认真的。

[08:44] You're not wrong. It was It was Kung Fu movies.
  你没说错。那是功夫电影。

[08:46] It was Kung Kung Fu movies. Drunken Master.
  那是功夫功夫电影。《醉拳》。

[08:49] Yeah. Drunken Master. Jackie Chan, of course.
  是的。《醉拳》。当然还有成龙。

[08:51] Chan came later, though.
  不过成龙是后来才出现的。

[08:52] But yeah, but I mean for us it was he was first Bruce Lee and then Jackie Chan and then.
  但是的，但我的意思是，对我们来说，他先是李小龙，然后是成龙，然后。

[08:57] Yeah. All of I mean this was like our world.
  是的。所有这些，我的意思是，这就是我们的世界。

[08:59] Yes.
  是的。

[09:00] Then later on.
  然后后来。

[09:01] Yeah. Then it became fake goods.
  是的。然后就变成了假冒商品。

[09:04] And not even like a negative way. It was just like they're just the best at making fake goods.
  甚至不是以一种负面的方式。就像他们只是最擅长制造假冒商品一样。

[09:08] But I think a lot of the world sort of stopped there.
  但我认为世界上很多人就停在了那里。

[09:10] Mhm.
  嗯哼。

[09:10] And they were like, "Oh, China, the place that makes things, cheap things,
  他们就像说，“哦，中国，那个制造东西、廉价东西的地方，

[09:14] toys, and fake goods.
  玩具和假冒伪劣商品。

[09:17] And that's where China's identity stopped.
  中国身份的停滞就体现在这里。

[09:18] Yeah.
  是的。

[09:21] And to your point, it feels like either just in silence or when nobody was paying attention, China just leapfrogged.
  说到你的观点，感觉就像在中国默默无闻或者在没人注意的时候，中国就实现了跨越式发展。

[09:28] I was watching a video.
  我当时在看一个视频。

[09:29] I was showing you I was telling you about this.
  我给你看，我跟你说过这个事。

[09:31] I was watching a video about some guy who lives in Shenzen.
  我当时在看一个关于住在深圳的某人的视频。

[09:33] And this is a white American guy who grew up in Colorado and he lived in like a small town.
  这是一个在美国长大的白人，他在科罗拉多州长大，住在一个小镇上。

[09:40] And he's just he's not even like showing off the place.
  他并没有炫耀这个地方。

[09:42] He's just like, "Hey, I just want to show you guys like how I live and my vibe out here and the technology that he's showing, the lifestyle, uh, the style.
  他只是说：“嘿，我想给大家看看我在这里的生活方式，我的氛围，他展示的技术，生活方式，嗯，风格。

[09:55] The cost of living, the style of living, like how people are.
  生活成本，生活方式，人们的生活状态。

[09:57] And he doesn't he doesn't like flower over things.
  他不会粉饰太平。

[09:59] He's like, "Oh, certain things are really strict."
  他说：“哦，有些事情真的很严格。”

[10:01] And then he's like other things people are riding scooters, like mopeds wherever they want.
  然后他又说，其他方面，人们可以随心所欲地骑着滑板车，像摩托车一样。

[10:05] And so, so he's he's being, from what I could see, relatively honest about his experience.
  所以，据我所见，他对他自己的经历是相对诚实的。

[10:09] But I won't lie, even watching that, I was like, "Oh
  但说实话，即使看着那个，我也在想，“哦

[10:14] Man, I I didn't know that about China.
  天哪，我我不知道中国是这样的。

[10:16] And I didn't know that about China.
  而且我不知道中国是这样的。

[10:20] And I was just like, "Have we been living in like a dark ages of China information?"
  我当时就想，“我们是不是生活在中国信息时代的黑暗时代？”

[10:24] I like the way you said that.
  我喜欢你这样说。

[10:26] I think I think so.
  我想是的。

[10:28] But it's starting to change.
  但这种情况正在开始改变。

[10:30] Haven't you noticed on your Tik Tok Instagram feed, there's a lot of discussion about I'm living in a very Chinese time of my life, China maxing.
  你有没有注意到你的抖音和Instagram上有很多关于“我正生活在中国化的时代，中国化达到顶峰”的讨论？

[10:35] People are drinking warm beverages and China's is living in 2030.
  人们喝着温热的饮料，而中国仿佛生活在2030年。

[10:41] Living in the future, you know that it's safe and clean.
  生活在未来，你知道它是安全和干净的。

[10:42] U it's starting to pivot.
  它正在开始转变。

[10:45] And what's interesting in some of the polling data uh that came out from Pew is that in particular on both sides of the aisle, Dems and Republicans, Jenz are way more favorable than the boomers.
  有趣的是，皮尤研究中心发布的一些民意调查数据显示，特别是两党，民主党人和共和党人，Z世代比婴儿潮一代更看好中国。

[10:54] That makes sense.
  这说得通。

[10:56] But that that's starting to change in the sense that they are getting over time more favorable towards China.
  但这种情况正在开始改变，因为随着时间的推移，他们对中国的看法越来越有利。

[10:59] That's pretty interesting to me.
  这对我来说相当有趣。

[11:01] I don't know if how much of that is social media, you know, content driven by the stuff you see on YouTube, Instagram, uh, Tik Tok, but certainly I feel like in particular in the last year or two, we've had a change in in opinion at just at the popular
  我不知道有多少是社交媒体驱动的，你知道，是你在YouTube、Instagram、抖音上看到的内容，但可以肯定的是，我觉得尤其是在过去一两年里，我们的观点发生了变化，就在大众层面。

[11:15] level about China and that's across the board in Europe too.
  在欧洲也是如此。

[11:20] Uh, China's um unfavorable readings were really high during CO because obviously a lot of people blame China for it.
  呃，中国在新冠疫情期间的负面评价非常高，因为很明显很多人都因此责怪中国。

[11:26] China seemed to be screwing up the process, the response to CO.
  中国似乎搞砸了应对新冠疫情的进程和反应。

[11:31] Uh but since then it's it's rebounded remarkably in terms of favorability.
  呃，但从那以后，它的好感度却显著回升。

[11:34] Yeah.
  是的。

[11:37] You know that's that is probably the strangest thing about China.
  你知道，这可能是关于中国最奇怪的事情了。

[11:39] Like when I try and read about it and try and understand it's on the one hand it seems like China runs, you know, the way the Chinese government runs the country is really structured and and rigid.
  比如当我尝试阅读和理解它时，一方面，它似乎是中国在运行，你知道，中国政府管理国家的方式非常结构化和僵化。

[11:49] That's how it feels for me when I see it.
  当我看到它时，我就是这么感觉的。

[11:53] I'm like, okay, they they they have an idea of where they're trying to go.
  我心想，好吧，他们他们他们知道自己想去哪里。

[11:56] It's multigenerational.
  这是跨越几代的。

[11:58] It isn't constrained by the next election or democracy or like a thing that's going to like throw it campaigning or elections.
  它不受下次选举或民主制度的限制，也不受可能影响竞选或选举的事务的限制。

[12:05] Yeah.
  是的。

[12:06] They're like, "No, no, no.
  他们说，“不，不，不。

[12:08] This is our long-term plan.
  这是我们的长期计划。

[12:09] It's going to last longer than we're even alive and this is where we're trying to get to."
  它将比我们活着的时间还要长，这就是我们想要达到的目标。”

[12:10] But it seems very rigid.
  但它似乎非常僵化。

[12:12] It's like strict parents.
  就像严厉的父母一样。

[12:13] That's how I feel like.
  我就是这么感觉的。

[12:14] I feel like China's government is like strict parents.
  我觉得中国政府就像严厉的父母。

[12:14] But then at the same
  但同时

[12:16] time, I'll see things that China's doing where I'm like, that seems fun and rock and roll and it doesn't match up with the idea that I have of a homogeneous like strict parent, if that makes sense.
  时间，我会看到中国的一些事情，让我觉得很有趣，很摇滚，这与我对一个同质化的、像严厉的父母的印象不符，如果这说得通的话。

[12:28] And I I don't know how should how should we be thinking of China?
  我不知道我们应该如何看待中国？

[12:32] Like which which China is the real one?
  哪个中国才是真实的？

[12:33] Is it the place where everyone's building everything and they're moving forward and you know there's there's just like a boom happening in terms of manufacturing etc etc or is it the China that has like the strict government that defines how people live their lives every day?
  是那个每个人都在建造一切，并且在前进，你知道制造业等等正在蓬勃发展的中国，还是那个有严格的政府来定义人们日常生活方式的中国？

[12:48] Yeah, it's honestly a cop answer but both.
  是的，老实说这是一个敷衍的答案，但两者都是。

[12:50] This is going to sound very wonky.
  这听起来会很奇怪。

[12:52] There was a great paper by a Chinese economist over a decade ago in which he has a framework that China is a regionally distributed authoritarian regime.
  十多年前，一位中国经济学家发表了一篇很棒的论文，其中他提出了一个框架，认为中国是一个区域性分布的威权政权。

[13:00] And what he means by that [clears throat] is that yes, you have the central government which historically in China has been the emperor.
  他的意思是，是的，你有中央政府，在中国历史上，中央政府一直是皇帝。

[13:05] Yeah.
  是的。

[13:06] Um there's a phrase in Chinese which is that the mountains are high but the emperor is far away.
  嗯，有一句中国话是“山高皇帝远”。

[13:09] And that suggest say that again.
  那句话再说一遍。

[13:12] The mountains are high.
  山很高。

[13:14] I would love that on my bio.
  我很想把这句话写在我的简介里。

[13:17] and the emperor is far.
  而皇帝很遥远。

[13:19] And what it means by that is yes you have central command and the emperor or in this case the central government says you should do this.
  而其含义是，是的，你有中央指挥，皇帝或在这种情况下，中央政府说你应该这样做。

[13:25] These are the targets for semiconductor output.
  这些是半导体产出的目标。

[13:28] This is what growth we want.
  这就是我们想要的增长。

[13:31] But local governments have a degree of latitude to interpret what that means and and at the same time they're also experimenting.
  但地方政府在解释其含义方面有一定的自由度，同时他们也在进行实验。

[13:37] So China from the 80s onwards had as you probably know these special economic zones in particular the eastern uh provinces like Shanghai, Shenzhen uh they are experimenting with innovating uh being pro business bringing more private market entrance uh into the economy and that really drove that was really the responsible driver for growth in China that cannot exist without a central government is willing to give a degree of latitude to uh to the local government.
  因此，从80年代开始，中国有了你可能知道的经济特区，特别是像上海、深圳这样的东部省份，它们正在进行创新实验，支持商业，将更多的私营市场引入经济，这确实推动了中国的增长，没有中央政府愿意给予地方政府一定程度的自由度，这种增长就无法实现。

[14:05] So yes, China is like a strict Asian parent and I know this from my own personal experience, but there's a degree Asian parent.
  所以是的，中国就像一个严厉的亚洲父母，我从我个人的经历中知道这一点，但有一个程度的亚洲父母。

[14:13] I do have Asian parents.
  我确实有亚洲父母。

[14:19] You see, my friend Eugene doesn't Eugene doesn't see color.
  你看，我的朋友尤金不尤金不看重肤色。

[14:22] That's what I love about Eugene.
  这就是我喜欢尤金的原因。

[14:25] Eugene doesn't say uh Yes.
  尤金不说嗯，是的。

[14:28] Um Ellis is Asian.
  嗯，艾丽斯是亚洲人。

[14:31] Eugene.
  尤金。

[14:33] So uh cuz also I was raised by my TV and it was a Sony.
  所以，嗯，因为我是在电视上长大的，而且是索尼的。

[14:36] So we have a lot in common.
  所以我们有很多共同点。

[14:38] Japanese parents,
  日本父母，

[14:39] Asian poems,
  亚洲诗歌，

[14:42] Asian poems.
  亚洲诗歌。

[14:44] Yeah.
  是的。

[14:46] But yeah, so it's it's and this is my thing with a lot of western analysis.
  但是的，所以这是我与许多西方分析人士的看法。

[14:49] It has a very formulaic and sometimes ideological approach to China, which is, oh, it's communist.
  它对中国有一种非常公式化，有时甚至是意识形态化的方法，那就是，哦，它是共产主义的。

[14:51] It's Marxist Leninist.
  它是马克思列宁主义的。

[14:53] You see this in their language.
  你可以在他们的语言中看到这一点。

[14:56] This is what they say.
  这就是他们所说的。

[14:58] But really, you know, there's so much, to your point, innovation and chaos and diversity.
  但实际上，你知道，正如你所说，有如此多的创新、混乱和多样性。

[15:03] Even you know the number of ethnic groups in China, the different cuisines, the different dress codes,
  甚至你知道中国少数民族的数量，不同的菜肴，不同的着装规范，

[15:08] people in Shanghai behave very differently from people in Yunan which is tends to be a more hippie kind of area where people wearing you know a lot of linen and and and drinking tea and eating mushrooms.
  上海的人们的行为与云南的人们截然不同，云南往往是一个更嬉皮士风格的地区，人们穿着亚麻服装，喝茶，吃蘑菇。

[15:18] You know how you know
  你知道吗，你知道

[15:19] and not drug mushrooms but actual mushrooms.
  不是迷幻蘑菇，而是真正的蘑菇。

[15:22] It's the most biodiverse place in the world for mushrooms.
  它是世界上蘑菇生物多样性最丰富的地方。

[15:26] How you explain how means south of the cloudsan and it's hu no y n a y n and it borders Vietnam Cambodia it has a lot and it's a totally different vibe totally different densest amount of minority groups in China including Muslims.
  你怎么解释，意思是云山东南，它是胡诺伊纳伊恩，它与越南柬埔寨接壤，它有很多，而且它是一种完全不同的氛围，完全不同的中国少数民族最多的地区，包括穆斯林。

[15:43] so you you I think people have this kind of idea that China is very homogeneous and yes most people look like me and they have the dark hair and this kind of skin Right.
  所以你，我认为人们有一种看法，认为中国非常同质化，是的，大多数人看起来都像我，他们有黑头发和这种肤色，对吧。

[15:55] But people have diff, you know, come from different religious backgrounds.
  但人们有不同的，你知道，来自不同的宗教背景。

[15:58] They practice different traditions.
  他们实践不同的传统。

[15:59] They, you know, eat different foods.
  他们，你知道，吃不同的食物。

[16:03] I it's it's interesting because when when you talk about China or when I when I read about China because I'm consuming western media the criticisms of China will always be uh yeah China seems to be doing well and
  我，这很有趣，因为当你谈论中国，或者当我，当我读到中国时，因为我正在消费西方媒体，对中国的批评总是会说，嗯，是的，中国似乎做得很好，而且

[16:19] yes they've built a lot of cities and yes they've built a lot of infrastructure and yes they're doing really well in technology and yes they basically run the world's manufacturing.
  是的，他们建造了许多城市，是的，他们建造了许多基础设施，是的，他们在技术方面做得非常好，是的，他们基本上掌握了世界制造业。

[16:26] yes yes yes but remember there are still parts of China that are experiencing a lot poverty and people are not moving out of the middle class and there's no boom etc.
  是的，是的，是的，但请记住，中国仍有部分地区经历着严重的贫困，人们没有摆脱中产阶级，也没有经济繁荣等等。

[16:35] Then what I find myself struggling with is I go it's just interesting to me that that framing is used to label China's entire system as a failure.
  然后我发现自己挣扎的是，我觉得很有趣的是，这种说法被用来将中国的整个体系标记为失败。

[16:46] Mh.
  嗯。

[16:47] But the same thing is not levied in western countries especially in America.
  但在西方国家，尤其是在美国，情况并非如此。

[16:49] So they'll go the US you'll be like yeah but people live here paycheck to paycheck.
  所以他们会说美国，你会说，是的，但人们在这里是靠工资过活的。

[16:55] Most people are one paycheck away from poverty.
  大多数人离贫困只有一份工资的距离。

[16:57] Like it's it's like a the the number like the percentage of people in the US one paycheck away from poverty, people who cannot afford their standard of living even with a full-time job is like one of the highest.
  就像，就像那个数字，在美国，离贫困只有一份工资距离的人的百分比，那些即使全职工作也无法负担其生活水平的人，是最高的之一。

[17:08] But then people here will make it seem like when the media writes about it, they'll make it seem like people have failed.
  但然后这里的人会让人觉得，当媒体报道这件事时，他们会让人觉得是人们失败了。

[17:15] They don't make it seem like the system has failed.
  他们不会让人觉得是系统失败了。

[17:16] Yeah.
  是的。

[17:17] Yeah.
  是的。

[17:17] So they go like, "Yeah, well I guess you know some people I guess have chosen the
  所以他们会说，“是的，嗯，我想你知道有些人，我想他们选择了

[17:20] Wrong jobs or I guess they've got the wrong degree or they've got the.
  错误的工作，或者我想他们拿错了学位，或者他们拿错了。

[17:26] So I want to know how China views its problems and like where where does it diverge from the way the West portrays China's issues or problems?
  所以我想知道中国如何看待它自身的问题，以及它与西方描绘中国问题的方式有何不同？

[17:37] Well, the West in so far as I understand portrays it a lot as you know this is the problem of authoritarianism.
  嗯，就我所理解的，西方在很大程度上将其描绘成，你知道的，这是威权主义的问题。

[17:41] It's a massive struggle between democracy and authoritarian regimes.
  这是民主与威权政权之间的一场巨大斗争。

[17:47] They still see that little red book.
  他们仍然看到那本小红书。

[17:48] Yeah.
  是的。

[17:48] Exactly.
  没错。

[17:48] They they have this kind of mauist uh Marxist lenders framework.
  他们拥有这种毛主义的、马克思主义的贷款框架。

[17:53] Whereas in China, they're thinking about structural issues.
  而在中国，他们正在考虑结构性问题。

[17:54] So what I have called uh the four Ds are the real problems in China that policy makers understand.
  所以我称之为“四个D”是中国政策制定者所理解的真正问题。

[18:00] Okay.
  好的。

[18:02] And those four Ds are number one, debt.
  这四个D是，第一，债务。

[18:05] You've got debt north of 300% of GDP.
  你们的债务占GDP的300%以上。

[18:08] Uh that's just a little bit lower than Japan, but that's a huge amount of debt, more than the US.
  呃，这只比日本略低一点，但这是巨额债务，比美国还多。

[18:11] Okay.
  好的。

[18:13] Uh that why does that matter?
  呃，为什么这很重要？

[18:13] It matters because it it crowds out investment in more efficient areas of the economy and it crowds out uh domestic demand which
  这很重要，因为它挤占了经济中更有效率领域的投资，并且挤占了国内需求，而

[18:21] is the second D.
  是第二个D。

[18:23] You know consumption has really underwhelmed and and actually is underwhelming uh relative to pre-COVID trend uh because household savings rates have gone up.
  你知道消费确实令人失望，而且实际上相对于新冠疫情前的趋势来说，消费仍然令人失望，因为家庭储蓄率已经上升。

[18:32] Households are less you know sp um you know less keen to spend like Americans for instance.
  家庭不像，你知道，嗯，你知道，不像美国人那样热衷于消费。

[18:37] They don't use their credit.
  他们不使用信用卡。

[18:38] There's no sort of tradition of using credit cards.
  没有使用信用卡的传统。

[18:41] people are more conservative when it comes to you know spending of durable goods for instance uh and and that has obviously got knock-on effects for the rest of the world because it means that if China wants to keep growing at 5% of GDP then it needs to export even more to the rest of the world to maintain that growth.
  人们在购买耐用品等方面更加保守，这显然对世界其他地区产生了连锁反应，因为这意味着如果中国想保持5%的GDP增长，那么它就需要向世界其他地区出口更多商品来维持这种增长。

[18:58] So it's the other side of this demand uh and debt problem.
  所以这是需求和债务问题的另一方面。

[19:01] So so if China's population is not bearing the brunt because it's not spending as much, it's not creating as much for China's economy, then China has to get that spending outside of China.
  所以，如果中国人口没有承担重负，因为它没有花那么多钱，没有为中国经济创造那么多价值，那么中国就必须到中国以外的地方去获得这些消费。

[19:10] Exactly.
  没错。

[19:11] And the strength of the American economy is that it is consumption and services based.
  而美国经济的优势在于它是基于消费和服务的。

[19:15] You guys spend so much, don't you guys?
  你们花钱真多，不是吗？

[19:21] Woo woo woo w [laughter]
  呜呜呜呜 [笑声]

[19:26] But so that the policy makers they want to get to some version of America where they want to be more consumer services led but they're not willing to see you know a massive slowdown in growth meaning you know winding down exports in order to achieve that rebalancing in the economy to be more like the American model.
  但政策制定者希望实现某个版本的美国，他们希望更多地以消费者服务为主导，但他们不愿意看到经济增长大幅放缓，也就是说，为了实现经济再平衡，使之更像美国模式，而减少出口。

[19:44] So it's a very difficult balancing act for the policy makers.
  因此，对于政策制定者来说，这是一个非常困难的平衡举动。

[19:48] And then the third one is one of the I think most challenging issues is aging population demography.
  然后第三个，我认为是最具挑战性的问题之一是人口老龄化的人口结构。

[19:53] The third D is demography.
  第三个D是人口结构。

[19:55] The fact that you know now we have uh the lowest birth rate since 1949 since record on record since the communists came to power.
  事实上，你知道现在我们的出生率是自1949年以来，自共产党掌权以来有记录以来的最低水平。

[20:05] That's why I think you moving back home will be good to have fertility increase.
  这就是为什么我认为你搬回家将有助于提高生育率。

[20:08] Nice young man settle down.
  好青年，安定下来。

[20:10] Leave the 40s alone.
  别管四十多岁的人了。

[20:17] I didn't know this was going to be this kind of podcast.
  我不知道这会是这样的播客。

[20:22] There's too many tech bros that are talking about proatalist policies.
  有太多科技界的哥们在谈论生育政策。

[20:27] Speaking of, there is this one guy in in

[20:29] China who's fascinating.

[20:31] Just a side side note and talk about

[20:35] is a side note.

[20:36] It's a side note.

[20:36] Yes, feel free. Good. So there's a

[20:39] demography um professor who is also the

[20:42] chairman and founder of SERIP which is

[20:44] China's big uh trip booking platform.

[20:46] Okay. And he um uh is now paying his

[20:49] employees $50,000 per baby because he's

[20:52] so worried about the demographic issue

[20:54] in China.

[20:55] Uh you know China's u you know uh

[20:58] replacement rate is now about one

[21:00] meaning that the population is shrinking

[21:02] by 2040 one in three people will be

[21:04] above 60. Just think about

[21:06] because Germany's Germany's is currently

[21:08] like 1.4

[21:09] slightly higher than China.

[21:10] Yeah. And then like and then like Japan

[21:12] is lower

[21:15] below

[21:15] one. Yeah.

[21:16] Yeah. So Japan is not replacing not

[21:19] replacing.

[21:19] So China is at one

[21:20] at about close to one. Exactly. And that

[21:24] uh that's a huge implication for growth

[21:27] because if you have an increasing number

[21:30] of of the economy above 60 1 and three

[21:33] by 2040 then who's going to pay for

[21:36] social services falls apart and yeah

[21:37] exactly and who's going to drive

[21:39] productivity when you have um you know

[21:41] ever shrinking labor force and ever

[21:44] shrinking uh youth population. So that's

[21:46] the demographic challenge and they try

[21:47] they're trying to subsidize it by giving

[21:49] people more money to have babies. But

[21:51] but women this is the thing that's

[21:53] understated I think in Western media and

[21:56] this is why it's actually uh if you uh

[21:59] watch um

[22:00] videos on Chinese Tik Tok there's a lot

[22:02] of

[22:03] is that way or is it just

[22:05] it's it's doing like which is red note

[22:09] that last part.

[22:10] Yeah. It's a

[22:13] Sometimes I feel like you like you are

[22:16] [laughter]

[22:16] I can I can roll like that.

[22:20] Oh my god. You have a good accent.

[22:22] Oh, thank you very much.

[22:23] Yeah. No, seriously. Seriously, you

[22:25] could you could go on to Chinese TV.

[22:27] Okay. Oh, damn. Damn. Oh, no. Eugene,

[22:29] excuse me. A wise man once said,

[22:32] "Compiments are best when they are

[22:34] shared with [laughter] others." So,

[22:36] please, Ellis, please carry on. Carry

[22:37] on.

[22:41] Uh [snorts] what was I saying? It was

[22:42] demography.

[22:43] Yeah, you're talking about demography

[22:44] and you're talking about on Chinese

[22:45] Tik Tok. Oh, so girl bossing is a it's a

[22:48] huge trend on Chinese Tik Tok. Okay.

[22:50] So women telling other women don't go

[22:52] and get married and have kids. Find a

[22:55] younger man and just enjoy your life and

[22:57] be focused in your career.

[22:58] Really

[23:00] this you know you you know this is the

[23:02] funny thing about like

[23:04] the world you got excited.

[23:07] No it is. You know why second system

[23:08] effects, you know, I love them, right?

[23:10] The concept that we we never know what

[23:13] the effect of something will be, the

[23:15] second effect of something will be.

[23:17] Okay? So, we know that we're going to

[23:19] make a computer.

[23:21] We don't know that the computer will

[23:22] lead to the internet. We know that we'll

[23:23] have the internet. We don't know that

[23:24] the internet will lead to e-commerce. We

[23:26] don't know that e-commerce will lead to

[23:27] We don't know. We don't know. We don't

[23:29] You can do anything in life, but you

[23:30] don't know what the second system effect

[23:31] will be. You can't always predict it.

[23:34] One of the things I think we've taken

[23:35] for granted with choice in general for

[23:39] men and women, contraception, all of

[23:42] these things that we've we've come up in

[23:43] society is people now can choose whether

[23:46] or not they want to have kids. And we're

[23:48] we're basically living in like the first

[23:50] sort of generation where that that's a

[23:51] possibility.

[23:52] If you think about like the the last

[23:54] maybe 100 years, maybe even less, it's

[23:56] the first time where people can like

[23:58] choose how they want to live their

[23:59] lives. before life just happened to you

[24:02] and now if people choose how they live

[24:03] their lives it might not go well is what

[24:07] we are learning but we don't know how

[24:09] it's going to end

[24:12] do you know what I mean

[24:15] [laughter]

[24:15] thank you what how do you how do you say

[24:19] uh how do you say like I get it

[24:25] so but you are part of the

[24:30] [laughter]

[24:31] Or you could say that men may be a part

[24:32] of

[24:34] take some ownership. [laughter]

[24:36] You're at your prime. You're doing this

[24:39] incredible work. Eugene was sent here by

[24:40] your parents, by the way. But the

[24:42] [laughter]

[24:43] the thought of settling down here now.

[24:45] Where are we at with it? Because I'm

[24:47] sure if they see someone who's in your

[24:49] position doing what you're doing doing

[24:51] it, you can influence some people into

[24:53] having kids for $50,000.

[24:54] You be an Asian tried wife.

[24:57] Well,

[24:58] the Asian version of Secret Life of

[25:00] Mormons. [laughter]

[25:02] But why why why is it not fashionable

[25:04] anymore for young women who are

[25:06] successful and professional in China to

[25:08] aspire to having a partner and having

[25:10] children?

[25:12] There's a couple of reasons. You see

[25:13] this as a global phenomenon once you get

[25:15] to a certain degree of you know per

[25:18] capita GDP or economic outcomes in a

[25:20] country and that translates to education

[25:22] outcomes for women. they they decide

[25:23] that the trade-off of having babies

[25:25] versus increment until a growth in their

[25:28] career becomes uh you know uh not an

[25:31] attractive prospect. So they focus in

[25:33] their career as opposed to having more

[25:34] babies. But in the China context, I have

[25:37] a hypothesis which is that

[25:39] you the one child policy back to your

[25:42] point about unintended consequences.

[25:44] Yeah.

[25:44] Meant that you had for the first time in

[25:48] Chinese history uh because China is a

[25:50] country I'm sure you guys are familiar

[25:53] with this concept of of having many

[25:56] children is is is a fertuitous thing

[25:58] especially boys. George the door which

[26:00] is a Chinese expression. The more boys

[26:02] you have, the more lucky the family is.

[26:04] Yes. Change. They changed that with the

[26:06] one child policy, which is government

[26:07] intervention. And then I think I don't

[26:09] think of any other country in history

[26:11] where you have mass concentration of uh

[26:15] parental time, energy, and resources on

[26:17] one kid. And if that's a if that's a

[26:19] girl,

[26:20] then you were expecting that girl to go

[26:22] out and conquer and, you know, get a

[26:24] PhD, run companies, do incredible

[26:27] things.

[26:29] She's incentivized. Yeah. She's

[26:30] incentivized to be successful

[26:32] financially.

[26:32] The one child,

[26:33] all resources are pulled towards her

[26:35] towards towards her as opposed to a

[26:36] brother. You know,

[26:38] that's something we we take for granted

[26:39] as well is when we live in a world where

[26:42] everything has become hyper competitive,

[26:44] getting into a school, getting a job,

[26:46] etc., etc., etc. It means that

[26:50] it's safer for you to put all your

[26:53] resources into one child than to

[26:55] disperse your resources amongst many.

[26:56] Cuz if you have one child, you can

[26:57] afford their tutor. You can afford their

[26:59] extracurricular activities. You can

[27:01] afford their piano lessons. You can

[27:02] But if you have many children, you now

[27:05] risk having a wonderful Brady Bunch who

[27:08] just like plays with toys and has fun,

[27:10] but they may not be elite. You can't

[27:13] afford to make them all elite.

[27:14] Yeah. You know what I mean?

[27:15] I I see it happening in South Africa.

[27:17] And if you look at

[27:19] mostly female users of Tik Tok and

[27:21] Instagram and not not [clears throat]

[27:23] Twitter that much on in South Africa is

[27:26] it's usually professional women

[27:29] um in their late 20s or early 30s who do

[27:32] not have children.

[27:33] Yeah. who are maybe on weekends are

[27:35] running um doing some cooking content

[27:38] and decorating. And you think to

[27:39] yourself, this was a generation that was

[27:41] raised by two parents working government

[27:44] job or maybe sometimes even in retail in

[27:47] the township. And they mostly are the

[27:49] first generation to leave the township,

[27:51] be in the suburbs, become an accountant,

[27:52] a doctor. But it's so rare that they use

[27:56] five times of what their parents used to

[27:58] earn combined

[27:59] to just facilitate their lifestyle of

[28:01] hobbies.

[28:01] Oh, interesting. So I usually do this

[28:04] experiment when my daughter was younger.

[28:05] I would look at race. I would go

[28:07] Africans people versus black people. So

[28:10] black people in a private school, you'd

[28:11] see them driving one child in a fancy

[28:13] car. Africans people, Africans women

[28:16] would drive four kids in a crappier car.

[28:20] So they would spend most of their money

[28:22] educating the kids that they have. And

[28:24] then the black people on the other end,

[28:26] you would see spending most of their

[28:27] money in a lifestyle for one child. So

[28:30] we're seeing that happening over and

[28:31] over again. there's more single affluent

[28:33] black women than there are in the other

[28:35] way around. And it's becoming more and

[28:37] more trendy for people to climb the

[28:39] corporate ladder instead of prioritizing

[28:41] families. And I find it weird in our

[28:42] country because I'm like us in our early

[28:45] 40s, we are products of those women.

[28:48] Yeah, we are

[28:49] who were earning very little but managed

[28:51] to have more than one child

[28:53] that went to a public school and managed

[28:55] to find their way in the world. And I'm

[28:57] thinking to myself, where did it all go

[28:58] wrong? actually what what is what is the

[29:01] the breakdown while we still talking

[29:02] about demographics in China?

[29:05] We're seeing this trend around the

[29:07] world. Is it the same in China where the

[29:09] men are now becoming less favored in the

[29:12] workplace or are finding themselves in a

[29:15] hyperco competitive world where they're

[29:16] actually like losing a bit of the race?

[29:18] Is that also seen in China or is it or

[29:19] is it different?

[29:20] Not to the same degree and it's not

[29:22] talked about as much as it is in the

[29:23] West.

[29:24] Okay. But there and certainly not as

[29:27] much as as as Korea where I know there

[29:29] is a right-wing incel movement that is

[29:31] anti-women because to your point they

[29:33] they feel as though the deck is

[29:35] increasingly stacked against them. That

[29:36] quite hasn't quite happened as of yet.

[29:39] Uh but I think more importantly is this

[29:42] kind of um you know constonnation

[29:46] especially amongst men that they can't

[29:48] find women because one one of the other

[29:50] unintended consequences although you

[29:52] could have easily predicted this based

[29:53] on human nature is we've got a massive

[29:56] um uh skewed towards the male population

[29:59] as opposed to females. So there way more

[30:01] men

[30:02] in my generation in China than there are

[30:04] women

[30:04] because of the one child policy.

[30:05] Because the one child policy and people

[30:06] favored they would rather have one one

[30:08] one son rather than a daughter.

[30:10] Oh boy.

[30:11] And and as a result dating is just

[30:13] really tough. The the the barrier to

[30:15] entry to date

[30:16] as a Chinese man historically uh and

[30:19] still is present today is you've got to

[30:22] have your own apartment, your own car, a

[30:24] really stable job. [clears throat]

[30:25] Uh and it's really really tough. And

[30:28] that's why we were talking about this

[30:29] earlier. There's been a trend um on um

[30:32] social media in terms of vloggers, but

[30:34] it's been happening really since Russia

[30:36] Ukraine of of um Chinese men going out

[30:39] and finding Ukrainian women and bringing

[30:40] them back to China. And the Ukrainian

[30:42] women have really popular vlogs saying

[30:44] how great China is compared to Russia or

[30:48] Ukraine and how great Chinese men are

[30:50] compared to Russian men because they

[30:51] they're responsible financially. They

[30:53] take care of the kids. They they take

[30:55] care of their women. It's it's it's a

[30:57] fascinating thing. One last data point.

[30:59] I was in Shanghai a couple weeks ago uh

[31:01] and in uh Tomorrow Square, which is

[31:04] right in the central of Shanghai, there

[31:06] are now um these matchmakers that just

[31:09] sit out there and I literally saw

[31:11] hundreds of them in the square

[31:13] in the park. I've seen this. Yes, of

[31:17] 70 men.

[31:18] I like this.

[31:18] You know, [laughter] this I've seen

[31:20] this.

[31:21] Yeah, but not even a picture of them.

[31:23] It's just their little data.

[31:25] The data.

[31:26] Wait, so they said I saw this and I

[31:28] thought they're bering that people are

[31:29] like

[31:30] comes in and goes, I've got a

[31:32] Yeah, I've got this guy.

[31:32] It's sort of like an auction as well,

[31:34] right? Like people are like, I'll pay

[31:35] you this for this. No, I'll give you

[31:36] this much. I'll give you this much. And

[31:37] it's like a whole I didn't know there

[31:39] was a real thing, but now you made me

[31:40] realize maybe maybe the the solution to

[31:42] the world's problems is

[31:44] we just need to figure out yes that. But

[31:46] also

[31:47] we just need to figure out where

[31:49] everybody's um polar opposite answer

[31:52] lies

[31:53] in arranged marriages

[31:55] maybe. But what I mean is this. Who

[31:57] would have thought the perfect companion

[31:59] for Ukrainian women was Chinese men?

[32:01] Yeah, that's what I'm saying all along.

[32:03] So I'm saying wherever you are out

[32:05] there,

[32:06] you are a Chinese man or whatever you

[32:10] are, [snorts]

[32:11] you are a Ukrainian woman or whatever

[32:13] you are

[32:14] and you might be struggling in your

[32:16] market as you say.

[32:18] Little do you know there's a market out

[32:20] there that is pining for you [laughter]

[32:22] and is more perfect for you.

[32:23] What a business opportunity.

[32:24] Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, 100%.

[32:26] We could stop this. The three of us.

[32:27] What? Where would South Africans go?

[32:29] What would you pair with?

[32:30] I leave those ones. [laughter]

[32:33] They've done enough.

[32:36] What we need to FOCUS ON [laughter] IS

[32:39] THE AUNTIE IN THE PARK AUCTION.

[32:40] NO, but you know, you know, well, you

[32:41] know what's actually funny is I actually

[32:43] think South Africans are lucky in this

[32:44] regard because we have such a melting

[32:46] pot. So, if you look at South Africans

[32:47] now, I would argue our generation more

[32:49] than our parents' generation has

[32:51] intermingled. So like our parents

[32:54] generation was more likely to be your

[32:56] mother what ksa your father whatso your

[32:58] mother and there were a few outliers

[32:59] here and there but I think over the

[33:01] years it's become more common for people

[33:03] to cross-pollinate and say oh I like

[33:07] those men from that culture because

[33:08] they're actually more like this and I

[33:10] like those women from that culture

[33:11] because they're more like that and so

[33:13] people will find themselves you know

[33:15] zulu tonga wherever they just find

[33:17] themselves mixing in a different way

[33:18] phenomena that happened when apartate

[33:20] ended and the world opened up a little

[33:22] is when South African white men started

[33:24] traveling to Eastern Europe

[33:26] like Bosnia and after the war and then

[33:29] they would be in hotels and then this

[33:30] hot blonde would just come in and they

[33:33] were like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait,

[33:34] wait, wait. You work here?" And the

[33:36] person would be like, "Yeah, that's what

[33:37] I do." They didn't they didn't know that

[33:38] was

[33:39] you coming home with me.

[33:39] Yeah. They didn't know that was a thing.

[33:41] And then they would be now most of them

[33:42] are the owners of these BNBs and these

[33:44] fancy neighborhoods that obviously got

[33:46] gentrified and acquired so much value.

[33:48] Yeah.

[33:48] And when you ask most of them where they

[33:49] came from, they're like, I met my

[33:50] husband on a business trip when South

[33:52] Africa opened up and they came to South

[33:54] Africa. They were like, I appreciate all

[33:56] of what you're doing. You work hard, but

[33:58] women from here would have never seen

[33:59] your value. But I think that's what's

[34:01] happening now in China, right? When

[34:03] Chinese men go out there, they're like,

[34:04] yo, you don't know how hot I am in in

[34:07] Ukraine.

[34:08] [laughter]

[34:09] I'm Shong.

[34:11] Good for them. I love that.

[34:14] We're going to continue this

[34:15] conversation [music]

[34:16] right after this short break.

[34:25] [music]

[34:26] How easy is it to um to move to China?

[34:28] Cuz from what I've read, China is not

[34:30] necessarily like an like an immigration

[34:32] country.

[34:33] No. No. But I think Japan is less of

[34:35] Well, Japan's starting to change now.

[34:37] When I was in Japan, sorry to cut you

[34:38] off. When I was in Japan, there were

[34:40] newspaper articles. It was interesting

[34:41] cuz the the our tour guide was

[34:43] translating it for us. But there were

[34:45] whole

[34:46] You made your tour guide translate

[34:47] newspaper article.

[34:48] Make please I didn't make anyone do

[34:51] anything. Eugene he as the tour guide

[34:53] was I was just saying what's in the news

[34:55] today and then he was telling me some of

[34:57] the stories

[34:57] and he said not much. He said no really

[35:00] [laughter]

[35:01] what's in the news today.

[35:02] Yeah. I was just asking cuz I I'm

[35:03] curious. I wanted to know what's

[35:05] happening in Tokyo while we're there.

[35:07] Right. And one of the big stories in the

[35:09] newspaper was a continuing discussion

[35:12] where they would essentially the

[35:14] headline was should Japanese people be

[35:17] less um xenophobic

[35:20] because they're fully they're fully like

[35:23] we don't want anyone who's not Japanese

[35:25] here. Don't bring them into our country.

[35:27] We're not mixing cultures. We're not.

[35:29] But then the article is like, it was

[35:32] weird because the article was basically

[35:33] like, we agree we shouldn't let anyone

[35:35] in, but it's not working. [laughter] But

[35:37] we agree we shouldn't let anyone in, but

[35:39] what are we going to do about this?

[35:40] Should we maybe bring maybe we should

[35:42] start bringing people in who want to

[35:44] learn Japanese and want to learn

[35:45] Japanese culture and they want to become

[35:47] Japanese. Maybe we start with them. And

[35:49] then we we were we were out having sushi

[35:52] at a you know those tiny tiny tiny

[35:54] little place like like beautiful sushi

[35:56] places can only [clears throat] see six

[35:58] and I was there with a Japanese man and

[36:00] his wife who had offered to take me with

[36:02] them.

[36:03] Wait

[36:04] and while we were there

[36:05] wait

[36:05] wait what?

[36:07] You you were there in a six-seater

[36:10] Japanese restaurant in Japan cuz just a

[36:12] restaurant. It's not a Japanese

[36:13] restaurant

[36:13] cuz you were in Japan.

[36:14] You're right. Yes.

[36:15] And you this couple wanted to take you

[36:17] out for dinner. Yes. Yes. And where did

[36:18] you meet this couple?

[36:19] I'd met the husband in San Francisco.

[36:23] And so he said, "If you ever come to

[36:24] Japan, look me up."

[36:25] You did?

[36:26] I don't think he meant it, but I looked

[36:27] him up. [laughter]

[36:30] And then he was like, "Wow, you're

[36:31] here." And I was like, "Yes, I would

[36:32] love to go and have sushi." So he took

[36:34] me.

[36:34] We went to this place.

[36:36] The chef is making the food. It's

[36:38] amazing. Some of the best sushi I've

[36:39] ever had. And then um I think they were

[36:42] Americans. Yeah. But the an American

[36:44] couple walked in

[36:46] and then the chef was like, "No, we're

[36:48] closed." And then they were like, "Oh."

[36:50] And they looked at us and we're guilty

[36:52] with our chopsticks. You know, you're

[36:53] like mid and they're like, "We're

[36:55] closed." And they looked at us like,

[36:57] "You can't be closed." And we I was

[36:58] like, "Yo, I'm not trying to not get the

[37:00] sushi, so I'm not going to [laughter] I

[37:01] was like, yeah, I mean, whatever's

[37:03] happening here." They left. And then the

[37:07] the chef said to them, "Uh, yeah, I I

[37:10] don't allow nonJapanese

[37:13] people into the restaurant."

[37:15] But it was interesting why. He said,

[37:16] "Because I do not believe that I can

[37:18] provide the best level of service to

[37:20] people who do not understand me and I

[37:21] don't understand them."

[37:22] Yeah.

[37:23] And so if I don't speak their language,

[37:25] this is not going to be the the the

[37:27] experience it needs to be.

[37:29] And so they I don't allow them in here.

[37:30] And there were many places like that in

[37:32] Japan. But then I asked I was like,

[37:35] "Yeah, but how does that do for

[37:36] business?" And he said, "Well, we're

[37:37] actually struggling because of that

[37:39] because there are many sushi spots that

[37:42] are allowing foreigners in and I can

[37:45] only rely on the locals and and we're

[37:47] struggling." And so it's interesting to

[37:48] see how this thing is like

[37:50] all over the world like how how much

[37:51] immigration do you allow because without

[37:53] it you can't replace your population.

[37:55] Maybe robots, but I think this is where

[37:58] really cultures table robots in a

[38:00] second.

[38:01] We're definitely not going to forget

[38:02] robots. Especially [laughter] not sex

[38:04] robots IN JAPAN. [screaming]

[38:06] WHY DON'T YOU just lead with that?

[38:08] [laughter]

[38:10] Economist sex robot [laughter]

[38:14] advocate. Naz

[38:17] loop. [laughter]

[38:18] WE'RE GOING TO CHINA, my friend.

[38:21] It produces the most robots in the

[38:23] world. Okay. [laughter] So, so sorry

[38:26] guys.

[38:28] So, this is where culture is really

[38:29] important. So Japan historically, you

[38:31] know, you had the major restoration,

[38:33] this closing off of Western influence

[38:35] because they feel very fearful of that

[38:37] and very strong and convicted and they

[38:39] should in their traditions and culture.

[38:41] Uh but I think if I compare it to China,

[38:43] which is by no means perfect,

[38:45] there's China has culturally a more

[38:48] curiosity and open-mindedness towards

[38:50] the West. This is why it was able to

[38:53] invite a lot of foreign investment in

[38:54] the 80s and 90s. obviously copycat it,

[38:57] imitate it and then iterate on it and

[38:59] make it better. Um, but you also see it

[39:01] at a um in terms of an anecdotal level

[39:05] like I go to a bookstore in China and I

[39:07] see Elon Musk and his mother's face

[39:09] everywhere. May Musk like she's a

[39:11] freaking star in China. They are

[39:14] obsessed with the family. Uh but that

[39:16] goes to show you the reason I cite that

[39:18] and he apparently he was offered a green

[39:20] card by the then premier a couple years

[39:22] ago before co because they just loved

[39:24] him so much in China when he started

[39:26] building the Shanghai Gigafactory right

[39:28] but that shows you that that Chinese

[39:30] culturally have a very pragmatic

[39:32] utilitarian approach to foreigners which

[39:34] is like oh you're going to bring me

[39:35] money and business

[39:37] you can come I'll serve you and oh by

[39:39] the way I'm going to try to make it

[39:40] better than you so that in a couple

[39:42] years from you in a couple years time I

[39:44] won't need you but please come so we can

[39:46] you know learn from what you're doing

[39:47] and then build EVs. China now builds 70%

[39:50] of the world's EV production and this is

[39:53] only in the last 5 years which is insane

[39:56] that they've really ramped up that level

[39:58] of production but

[40:00] so that was wait so I'm just trying to

[40:01] make sure we don't it was the so the the

[40:03] I think we're on the third D right

[40:05] oh this is the third D and then the

[40:06] fourth D actually really quickly before

[40:08] the fourth D is the robot question

[40:10] yes

[40:10] is whether or not robots can fill up

[40:14] some of the gaps in productivity that

[40:16] will be caused by aging we can discuss

[40:18] that later. But that that's a that's a

[40:20] huge question. China is the biggest

[40:22] producer of robots in the world. 80% of

[40:25] robotic installations are made in China.

[40:27] 80% 80% [clears throat] that's bigger

[40:28] than the next four countries combined.

[40:30] Damn.

[40:31] It's so that's really dominating. And I

[40:33] just heard recently in China that they

[40:35] have over 100,000 robotics companies in

[40:38] China. That's again that uh

[40:41] misconception people have is that China

[40:42] is not super competitive. It is a super

[40:44] competitive ecosystem where companies

[40:47] are very cutthroat. They scale very

[40:50] quickly because there's a huge market.

[40:52] You know, this is 1.4 trillion people

[40:54] compared to the 300 billion or so in say

[40:56] the US. It's like a huge market that

[40:58] they can service. So maybe robots. I'm a

[41:00] little bit doubtful, but that's another

[41:02] kind of

[41:02] Oh, we'll get to okay, we'll table

[41:04] robots.

[41:05] And then D fourth D is destruction,

[41:07] which is the other challenge. It's

[41:09] related to Taiwan. Are we gonna have in

[41:11] the next couple years a big showdown

[41:14] over Taiwan?

[41:15] How real is that though? Because it

[41:17] feels like that's been on everyone's

[41:19] lips for the long time. It's in the same

[41:21] way and you know, not to flatten these

[41:24] these topics down, but like

[41:25] in the same way the world has been

[41:27] warned about Iranian missiles

[41:30] like for decades. People Iran, Iran's

[41:32] going to make a nuke. Iran's going to

[41:33] make a nuke. Iran. And it's like here we

[41:35] are decades later and they still haven't

[41:36] made a nuke. How real is the threat of

[41:40] China invi invading Taiwan? Because to

[41:42] me it seems imminent, but I remember

[41:44] even when I was like on the Daily Show

[41:46] and we were covering it, it felt like it

[41:47] was weeks away and then weeks later it

[41:48] felt like weeks away and then it was

[41:50] weeks. And then I was like, "Oh, it's

[41:51] been years and it's still weeks away."

[41:52] And then even now when I read the news,

[41:53] they're like, "I think it's happening. I

[41:55] think it's happening next week. I think

[41:56] it's happening next week. I think it's

[41:58] happening next week." And then I

[42:00] remember watching videos of people who

[42:01] live in Taiwan.

[42:03] And then they were just like chilled.

[42:05] Yeah. But the media that I was consuming

[42:08] in America was going, "Oh man, it's very

[42:10] stressful. It's about to happen. It's

[42:11] about to happen." So like, how how real

[42:14] is the threat?

[42:15] I certainly don't think it's real in the

[42:16] next two years. There's a lot of

[42:19] internal politics that I can get into in

[42:20] just a bit in China.

[42:21] Two years though,

[42:22] in the next two years, I think it's

[42:23] highly unlikely.

[42:24] Okay.

[42:25] But of fast forward 10 years or more, I

[42:28] think the probabilities go up. uh mainly

[42:30] because uh you know the Chinese will

[42:33] start to have superiority in terms of

[42:35] the military balance of power. Okay.

[42:37] Uh especially if the US doesn't do more

[42:39] to really invest in military defense

[42:41] capabilities. Uh and and certainly

[42:44] you've seen in the last couple years

[42:45] that uh the spending on debt has

[42:48] outpaced the spending on the military.

[42:50] This is a law in history by coined by my

[42:53] boss Neil Ferguson called Ferguson Law.

[42:55] So, shout out to him, which is that he

[42:57] looked at um empires through history.

[42:58] Yeah. And whenever an empire was

[43:01] spending more on repaying its debt, its

[43:02] debt interest payment growth was

[43:04] outpacing how much it was spending on

[43:06] the military. That was the number one

[43:09] signal, red light uh red signal that

[43:12] they were in decline. And this happened

[43:13] in the British Empire, the Dutch Empire,

[43:15] the the

[43:16] So, you can go back and trace it back in

[43:18] time.

[43:19] As soon as they're paying more

[43:20] on this paying their debt

[43:22] than they are for their military,

[43:23] they're in decline. What is what is the

[43:24] correlation? What why are they in

[43:26] decline?

[43:27] Because they are spending more on

[43:28] repaying how much they owe to their

[43:31] creditors instead of building up their

[43:33] military capabilities.

[43:34] What what I forgive me I don't

[43:35] understand why the military is the key

[43:37] signifier like why why the military why

[43:40] not like they're spending more on their

[43:41] debt versus more on I don't know

[43:43] infrastructure and manufacturing or why

[43:45] military specifically? So in in

[43:48] historical periods and it's questionable

[43:50] whether or not it's relevant today, you

[43:52] know, empires were overtaken by other

[43:54] powers through military campaigns. Okay.

[43:57] So see things like the Brit the British

[43:59] win against the Spanish and the Spanish

[44:01] uh sorry the Spanish Amada in 1588. um

[44:05] you know these military campaigns often

[44:07] times spell a decline in the milit uh in

[44:10] the the economic power of a country

[44:13] because if if Britain has more ships and

[44:16] is more powerful than Spain then Spain's

[44:18] not able to get more control of the seas

[44:20] and trade goes down not enough they

[44:23] can't get uh the same amount of silver

[44:25] from Latin America

[44:27] um and meanwhile Britain because it has

[44:30] more ships out there um it can develop

[44:32] trade routes and control these trade

[44:34] routes via the British and East India

[44:36] Company for instance, you know, uh so

[44:38] there you have the the mix of both the

[44:40] military and the commerce, right? So the

[44:43] question is, is that relevant today? I I

[44:45] do think it is because ultimately the

[44:48] Taiwan question is both a political and

[44:50] a military question. The military

[44:52] question is will the balance of power

[44:53] shift in uh the region in Asia-Pacific

[44:57] in favor of the Chinese? Right now, the

[44:59] Americans still have supremacy when it

[45:01] comes to naval um equipment, um you

[45:05] know, nuclear submarines, um uh you

[45:08] know, uh air air denial systems as well.

[45:11] China's massively catching up though,

[45:12] and the next couple years may have more

[45:14] PLA ships than the Americans.

[45:16] Uh but also related to that, America has

[45:19] more operational experience doing

[45:21] combat.

[45:23] It's been fighting. China

[45:24] has been fighting. America stays in the

[45:25] gym, bro. Don't play with America.

[45:27] It does.

[45:27] Don't play. You know what I learn? I saw

[45:29] this with Russia, Ukraine.

[45:30] Russia has just been talking and then

[45:32] when it came down to it, you're like,

[45:33] "Ah, uh,

[45:35] you haven't been, yo, America stays

[45:37] match ready all the time. You want to go

[45:39] to war. America's fighting one right now

[45:41] where doesn't matter. It's

[45:43] ready, baby."

[45:44] Yeah. But then the guys we meet,

[45:47] elevator going down, always.

[45:49] But it's like those guys on steroids

[45:51] because because then you question

[45:52] whether or not they have the will to

[45:53] keep fighting. That's the BIG [laughter]

[45:56] THAT'S WHY YOU'RE SINGLE. YOU QUESTION

[45:58] TOO MUCH.

[45:59] THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE USA.

[46:00] [laughter]

[46:05] I love your brain. [laughter] Oh man,

[46:06] that was so funny to the world to keep

[46:09] fighting.

[46:11] It's like it's like wrestling where it's

[46:13] a lot of show. Yes.

[46:14] But then then can you know the question

[46:17] is you know why did they lose Vietnam?

[46:18] Because they didn't have the political

[46:19] will to keep fighting.

[46:20] Oh damn.

[46:21] And that's the second domain which is

[46:23] the politics.

[46:25] Like Taiwan is way more important to

[46:26] China than it is to the media and US

[46:29] voter. Most Americans don't know what it

[46:32] is or why it's important.

[46:33] In fact, they can't even separate.

[46:34] Exactly.

[46:35] Yeah. Yeah. Because to your point, you

[46:37] even see it like now with Iran,

[46:40] the appetite that the American, the

[46:42] average American person has for the war

[46:43] in Iran. First of all, even before it

[46:46] started, they didn't want it. But people

[46:47] are like, I don't know what why we're

[46:49] doing this, and I I don't want us to be

[46:51] doing this. All right. But to your

[46:53] point, they have more leverage in

[46:55] America's politics than the Chinese

[46:58] media would in China's um expansion if

[47:01] they went into China into Taiwan.

[47:03] Taiwan.

[47:04] Yeah,

[47:05] that's Oh, that's an interesting way to

[47:06] think about it.

[47:07] Yeah. And then she she has time, Xi

[47:08] Jinping, the president, has time on his

[47:10] side. He's 72 this year. He's he's still

[47:13] young.

[47:14] He's still relatively young.

[47:15] Still a young man compared to American

[47:16] fresh young lotus. That's what he is.

[47:18] Huh. Living his dream. Xi Jinping. Is it

[47:21] are we saying it right when we say Xi

[47:23] Jinping or is it like is it is it

[47:24] backwards? Is it

[47:25] um Oh no, it's right. Xi Jinping. So

[47:27] it's the last name first and then

[47:29] because I remember we when we found out

[47:30] like Shinszo Abbe it was Abbe Shinszo

[47:32] and we were saying

[47:33] we were basically saying his name

[47:34] backwards the whole time

[47:36] and then all of a sudden someone was

[47:38] like no it's wrong.

[47:39] No he he's got it right. Yeah exactly.

[47:43] What is what has made him so successful?

[47:45] Like it seems like again when you read

[47:48] Western media and this is something by

[47:50] the way that I I think is interesting to

[47:52] your point

[47:54] I only realized the other day

[47:57] China is one of the few like major

[48:00] countries where its news is also being

[48:03] written in its language. M

[48:05] so if you cannot read Chinese or

[48:08] Mandarin Cantonese whichever one is

[48:10] being written in you are missing out on

[48:12] a lot of the nuance and the actual

[48:15] reporting and storytelling that's

[48:16] happening in the does that make sense so

[48:18] you're just going like oh we're looking

[48:19] at numbers we're looking at data we're

[48:21] looking at numbers but we don't go there

[48:22] physically and we also don't read or

[48:25] listen to what the people are actually

[48:26] saying

[48:27] like that's that's another thing that I

[48:28] that I was thinking about but

[48:30] again from what I read that is in

[48:33] English they'll say like Xi Jinping is

[48:35] he's just leagues ahead of his

[48:37] predecessors and he's he's got like a an

[48:40] iron grip on the country and a focus

[48:42] that no one has ever really had in the

[48:44] in the modern age at least. How true is

[48:46] that and and why is it that he's being

[48:48] so successful in implementing his vision

[48:50] of what the party is trying to do?

[48:53] [snorts]

[48:53] I well the fastest way to answer that is

[48:56] that he has elements of Mao and I and I

[49:00] don't say there's a form of criticism.

[49:02] If you look back in history, what Mao

[49:04] understood and part of the reason why he

[49:06] was successful, even though he had a

[49:07] wilderness period in the ' 50s where he

[49:09] was out of the party for a bit,

[49:10] well, he's still in the party, but he

[49:12] was not in the elite uh party

[49:14] leadership, he came back because he

[49:15] understood that power lived not in the

[49:18] elite

[49:20] uh policy makers, the elite um CCP

[49:23] apparachics, but in the people. So he

[49:26] had this concept of the mass line where

[49:27] it's like from the people to the people

[49:30] that that if you if you um and this

[49:33] obviously led to some of the bad parts

[49:36] of history like the red uh the red

[49:38] guard, the cultural revolution because

[49:40] you wanted to stir up political fervor

[49:42] and nationalism. He understood that if

[49:44] the people love you

[49:45] and they see you as this charismatic

[49:47] leader, that's the only thing that

[49:49] matters. and and part of what she has

[49:51] been successful in doing relative to his

[49:54] two previous successes

[49:56] is to build up this sort of cult of

[49:58] personality

[49:59] uh and to build up this nationalist

[50:01] favor. He calls it the the great Chinese

[50:02] dream and he even said it in the in the

[50:04] in the summit that state banquet when

[50:06] Trump was there

[50:08] that he said uh America make America

[50:10] great again can coexist with his own

[50:13] slogan which is the great rejuvenation

[50:15] of the Chinese nation. M

[50:16] so he has these very uh patriotic

[50:19] jingoistic language which you know to to

[50:22] some extent other authoritarian leaders

[50:25] like Putin and Modi have as well but

[50:28] he's been able to leverage that um to

[50:30] have a mass appeal and obviously what's

[50:32] helped him is that he has now this

[50:34] external aggressor

[50:36] you know this this you know in in

[50:38] traditional Chinese communist terms this

[50:41] this paper tiger or imperialist power

[50:43] which is America and only a strong man

[50:46] like she who has the will of the people

[50:49] uh who can see the future. He calls

[50:50] himself the great helmsman. He can he

[50:52] can uh help course uh chart the course

[50:55] in these very choppy difficult

[50:58] geopolitical waters. And then the last

[51:00] bit which I think has has made him

[51:02] successful is that like Deng Xiaoing he

[51:06] understood he understands politics

[51:10] uh the game of politics and he has been

[51:13] leading these anti-corruption campaigns

[51:15] and promoting his own people uh in order

[51:18] to again consolidate his power through

[51:20] all arms whether it's the it's not just

[51:22] the party it's also the PLA it's the

[51:25] intelligence system uh it's it's really

[51:28] all levels of of the party. He he he has

[51:30] been raising a lot of loyalists and that

[51:32] again consolidates his power within the

[51:35] party. So in in certain respects he's a

[51:37] combination of both leaders but I think

[51:39] he's been uh very successful in building

[51:43] himself up ultimately as a charismatic

[51:45] leader. Do do

[51:48] I mean I wouldn't say do they see it

[51:49] because I guess they do but like it

[51:52] feels like America is withdrawing from

[51:54] the world and in that withdrawal it

[51:56] feels like China is filling in the void.

[51:59] So

[52:00] many Americans I think sometimes will

[52:02] take for granted that part of the reason

[52:04] America is as powerful as it is and has

[52:05] been as powerful as it has been is

[52:08] primarily because of its soft power.

[52:10] America didn't go around the world

[52:12] blowing up the world to get the power it

[52:13] had. It went to Africa with things like

[52:16] US aid, you know, it helped um European

[52:19] governments build themselves up after

[52:21] World War II. It gave low interest

[52:22] loans. It really became the the

[52:25] benefactor of the world.

[52:27] It helped with trade. It inspired Yeah.

[52:29] It was it was really the sugar daddy of

[52:31] the world

[52:32] and that made the world like America and

[52:34] aspired to to America.

[52:36] Over the past few years, we've seen

[52:37] America take a step back and go, "Hey,

[52:40] America is America. We don't want

[52:41] anything to do with the rest of the

[52:42] world. Don't involve us." and and that's

[52:44] that. And then you see it in Africa like

[52:47] China's gone in and you know has built

[52:49] ports and built roads and railways and

[52:52] airports and created these interesting

[52:54] agreements where like the Chinese will

[52:56] never lose in the deal, you know. So

[52:57] it's like either they get their money

[52:58] back or they now own infrastructure in

[53:00] Africa.

[53:02] Um we've seen the the Chinese reach out

[53:04] to like Brazil and create new deals that

[53:06] never existed for like soy exports, etc.

[53:09] M

[53:11] within China, what do you think they are

[53:13] seeing with America pulling back and

[53:16] what do you think they're trying to do?

[53:18] Like is there a concerted effort to fill

[53:20] the gap or is it just them

[53:23] creating another version of a silk road?

[53:25] Yeah. Uh lots of people talk about

[53:28] policy makers in China as being majority

[53:30] engineers in the in the way that uh is

[53:32] different from the US where they're

[53:33] majority lawyers. But I the the other

[53:36] thing that I think is interesting about

[53:37] policy makers is that they are very keen

[53:39] historians. A lot of them read history

[53:42] and they have looked at American history

[53:43] and gone actually it's not that great to

[53:45] be everyone's enabler and sugar daddy.

[53:48] You know there's just a lot of these

[53:49] commitments that you have to make

[53:51] obligations

[53:52] on obligations.

[53:54] um you know it's far better if you know

[53:56] actually we have uh trade with all these

[53:58] different countries and we help them

[54:00] build infrastructure that it actually

[54:02] accelerates trade so they buy more of

[54:04] our products

[54:05] and we can have get more commodities

[54:07] like cobalt and lithium from Africa so

[54:10] that we don't have any supply chain

[54:11] problems like the Americans eur and

[54:13] Europeans have had so we can really

[54:15] dominate across technologies and supply

[54:17] chains that is the the thinking which is

[54:19] let's have more influence globally but

[54:22] maybe more preeminence regionally in

[54:24] Asia where we're looked to as

[54:26] uh within a tributary system we're

[54:28] looked to as the center

[54:29] but I I don't think policy makers have

[54:31] this view that it's worthwhile or worth

[54:33] their while to become the next global

[54:36] policeman uh the next sugar daddy

[54:38] because they've seen what that means you

[54:40] know costly battles uh increasing

[54:43] deficit spending in the American context

[54:46] and they increasingly look at the model

[54:48] in America and see a lot of problems but

[54:50] one last thing I'll say which I think is

[54:52] under appreciated. So in the 1990s the

[54:56] G7 countries comprised about 70% of

[54:58] global GDP.

[55:00] Okay.

[55:01] Today the global uh today that's only

[55:03] 40% G7 countries.

[55:06] And the global south now represents

[55:08] about 40% of global GDP and rising the

[55:12] global south. So countries like South

[55:14] Africa, Brazil,

[55:16] India,

[55:16] right? China. Um, and by uh the

[55:21] population is in 85%. Which is crazy.

[55:24] 85% of the world lives in the global

[55:26] south.

[55:26] The global south

[55:27] and China's big bet is the global south.

[55:30] Back to the demographic thing.

[55:33] That is where there's a young labor

[55:35] force. That's where economies are still

[55:37] growing and that's where you have

[55:39] markets that could still grow to buy to

[55:41] buy your goods. So I don't think that's

[55:43] understood enough in in the west where

[55:45] we have a very naval gazing approach

[55:47] which is like the only game in town is

[55:49] is a G7.

[55:51] It's increasingly not not true. The the

[55:53] balance of power is shifting.

[55:55] Don't press [music] anything. We've got

[55:58] more what now after this.

[56:06] [music]

[56:07] How do people on the ground feel in

[56:09] China? Because again, that that's

[56:11] another one of those things where if you

[56:13] just like read the media, they'll

[56:15] they'll always make it seem like Western

[56:17] media makes it seem like people in China

[56:19] are clamoring to get out.

[56:20] Yeah. Not having a good time.

[56:21] Clamoring. They're like, "You thank your

[56:23] lucky stars that you don't live in China

[56:25] because, oh, they would dream to live in

[56:28] a country where there's 600 TV channels

[56:30] and 15 kinds of nutmilk. You don't

[56:33] understand how it is." You don't

[56:35] understand.

[56:36] That exists already in China. Just so

[56:37] that's hilarious. [laughter]

[56:38] But that but that's yeah

[56:39] there's more variety actually in certain

[56:41] foods in China. Just just so you know.

[56:43] You but this so so what is the average

[56:46] Chinese I know you're not speaking for

[56:48] everyone but like what is the average

[56:50] Chinese person experiencing of China and

[56:53] what are they like do do you know what I

[56:55] mean? How how are they viewing China?

[56:57] So there's a good side and a bad side.

[56:58] The good side is you know everyone

[57:02] everyone else is having a worse time.

[57:03] Look at they have this narrative. Okay,

[57:05] there's just so much crime and guns in

[57:07] America and racism increasingly. They

[57:09] don't want people like us, you know, and

[57:11] and you know, Trump has just put in this

[57:13] new um green card policy that makes it

[57:16] harder for people to stay while they're

[57:17] getting their green cards.

[57:18] Oh, yes. Now you have to go you have to

[57:19] leave the country. Seems like a trap.

[57:22] Yeah, exactly. And and then and but the

[57:24] flip side of it is um you know, people

[57:27] do feel like the economy is slowing

[57:29] down. There's this concept you always

[57:31] hear in the media in the West, this

[57:33] concept of lying flat. tongping, which

[57:35] is, you know, why would you be in the

[57:38] rat race and work super hard when you

[57:40] can only get so much money and, you

[57:42] know, deflation is happening in the

[57:43] economy and there's not as many jobs.

[57:46] You know, youth unemployment's still

[57:48] close to 20%.

[57:50] So, young people in China feel a little

[57:51] bit depressed about the economy and

[57:53] where it's heading relative to their

[57:55] parents' generation, which was in the

[57:56] boom years. Uh but they still look at

[57:59] the rest of the world and go, "Well, I'd

[58:00] rather this than unsafe

[58:03] uh unstable

[58:05] systems where you don't know if you

[58:07] could have you have a very right-wing

[58:09] government that comes in or a leftwing

[58:11] government that changes all the policies

[58:13] and trains don't work on run on time."

[58:15] You know that's the social contract

[58:16] which is they'd much rather an efficient

[58:19] stable safe system

[58:21] than just to put it very simply the

[58:24] kinds of democratic liberal freedoms

[58:26] that people in the west say are you know

[58:28] of prime importance.

[58:29] I mean yeah look a simple example is you

[58:31] look at California has been saying

[58:34] they're going to build a highspeed rail

[58:36] system for more than a decade now. They

[58:39] still haven't gotten it done. Hyperoop.

[58:40] Yeah. Not even the Hyperloop was Elon.

[58:43] They were saying they're going to build

[58:44] one. I guess it was going like all the

[58:46] way up to like San Francisco. So, it was

[58:47] supposed to

[58:48] and this project was supposed to happen

[58:51] and it's just money and nothing's going

[58:53] on. And then in the meantime, China has

[58:56] interconnected like all of its cities

[58:58] with insanely fast mag rail. That's But

[59:02] but again, is that is that an accurate

[59:04] cuz I haven't been there. Is this an

[59:06] accurate depiction of it?

[59:07] Yeah. Then the gigantic structures in

[59:09] Chongqing. They just had the world's

[59:11] biggest elevator. It's the longest

[59:13] elevator in the world. It takes Sorry,

[59:16] escalator. Not elevator. Escalator. It

[59:18] takes about 20 25 minutes to go from

[59:20] bottom to

[59:21] 25 minutes on an escalator. [laughter]

[59:23] Yo, bro. Imagine you imagine you drop

[59:25] your bag on that. Have you ever dropped

[59:27] a bag?

[59:28] DROP YOURSELF.

[59:29] [laughter]

[59:32] 15 MINUTES later

[59:37] goes up and you go down and you go

[59:38] nowhere.

[59:39] You know, [laughter] you know, you fall

[59:40] for so long that people have time to

[59:42] process their grief. Eugene,

[59:45] [laughter]

[59:46] I mean, we lived a good life with Eugene

[59:47] if we're honest. I mean, it was a good

[59:48] one. It was a He was a great guy. He was

[59:51] a Yeah, man. It was a

[59:53] Where's [laughter]

[59:54] 20 minutes on an

[59:57] 30, right? No, 20 to 25 minutes. I can't

[01:00:00] remember the exact distance, but you

[01:00:02] should look it up. It goes from the base

[01:00:03] to to [laughter] the top of the

[01:00:05] mountain.

[01:00:09] Oh my god.

[01:00:10] It really does. Yeah, it feels like it

[01:00:11] feels like China's just doing like

[01:00:13] impossible things most of the time. Like

[01:00:15] in in every I was reading about BYD the

[01:00:17] other day. Oh, maybe this is Yeah, this

[01:00:19] is you're the perfect person to ask

[01:00:20] this.

[01:00:20] Why?

[01:00:21] Why was I reading about BYD?

[01:00:22] No. Why is she the perfect person to

[01:00:23] ask? because she knows about China and

[01:00:25] she knows about economics and you know

[01:00:27] none of these things even though I ask

[01:00:29] you about them every day.

[01:00:31] You don't try and learn [ __ ] [laughter]

[01:00:34] out here telling me about beard oil.

[01:00:38] That's the real BYD. [laughter]

[01:00:42] So beard your dreams. [laughter] So, um,

[01:00:47] BYD for a long time was considered the

[01:00:50] laughing stock of car manufacturers,

[01:00:53] right? There's like one video of Elon

[01:00:55] Musk in particular like laughing in an

[01:00:56] interview. They go, "What about BYD?"

[01:00:58] And he's like, "Well, [laughter]

[01:00:59] have you seen their cars?"

[01:01:01] And then you you fast forward a few

[01:01:03] decades and BYD, you see, not only do

[01:01:07] they have one of the most successful

[01:01:09] cars, one of the best electric cars,

[01:01:12] they've got superior battery technology.

[01:01:14] in terms of range, in terms of charging

[01:01:16] speed, in terms of like how they use it

[01:01:19] in the car. You then you see even the

[01:01:20] the pipeline they've created where

[01:01:22] they've got their own ships shipping the

[01:01:24] cars to Brazil, to Canada, etc., etc.

[01:01:28] And and [snorts] then I was I was

[01:01:29] reading this really interesting story

[01:01:30] about like how they're saying, "Oh, it's

[01:01:31] not going to last. BYD is not going to

[01:01:33] last like this because right now they're

[01:01:34] being subsidized by the government and

[01:01:36] the Chinese government is doing a good

[01:01:39] job of propping up many of its

[01:01:40] industries to make it seem like they're

[01:01:43] doing better than they actually are.

[01:01:45] Now, I'm not an economist, but the first

[01:01:47] thought that came to my mind was like,

[01:01:48] yeah, but

[01:01:49] many countries subsidize their

[01:01:50] industries. So, I I I couldn't really

[01:01:53] understand what the issue was,

[01:01:54] but I I I wondered if there's any truth

[01:01:57] to the house of cardsness in China's

[01:01:59] economy or if this is being overblown.

[01:02:02] So to unpack that, you can't deny the

[01:02:04] fact that BYD is now the biggest

[01:02:06] producer and exporter of EVs. It's

[01:02:08] overtaken Tesla in the last couple

[01:02:10] months.

[01:02:11] Uh and if you've been in one, you

[01:02:13] understand why it's so appealing. It's

[01:02:15] cheaper.

[01:02:15] My first one was in like Singapore. It's

[01:02:17] insane.

[01:02:17] It it's a great user experience both as

[01:02:19] a driver and and a passenger.

[01:02:21] Uh yes, there were huge subsidies that

[01:02:24] been put in place to support the EV

[01:02:26] sector. that has been part of the

[01:02:28] ability for the EV sector and in

[01:02:30] particular BYD to scale so quickly.

[01:02:32] Okay.

[01:02:33] But they are starting to walk that back.

[01:02:35] So in the last couple of uh months in

[01:02:38] particular, they're trying to get rid of

[01:02:39] some of the subsidies, the export tax

[01:02:41] rebates.

[01:02:42] Yeah.

[01:02:42] They're again trying to make it a bit

[01:02:44] more uh competitive domestically and

[01:02:46] globally because they now understand,

[01:02:48] hey, you know, the Europeans and

[01:02:50] Brazilians don't don't like the fact

[01:02:52] that we're, you know, giving them cheap

[01:02:54] EVs. we would have thought they would

[01:02:55] like it cuz this is great for green

[01:02:57] technology. But now they're starting to

[01:02:58] understand it's not just about um green

[01:03:02] technology and and market competition.

[01:03:04] It's also about a lot of these countries

[01:03:06] fearing the the flooding of Chinese

[01:03:09] goods. And so now you're starting to see

[01:03:10] them get unwind some of these subsidies

[01:03:13] for but for the sector. But in general I

[01:03:17] think the the problem is that the

[01:03:18] subsidies are so large. These are the

[01:03:21] subsidies that China puts on whether

[01:03:22] it's solar panels, wind turbines,

[01:03:24] electric vehicles, batteries. Yeah.

[01:03:27] Uh much larger than say even the

[01:03:28] Europeans or other countries put on on

[01:03:31] to support the sector. Um that it is no

[01:03:34] longer seen as fair competition by a lot

[01:03:37] of these other countries and because

[01:03:39] China you is still acting in the

[01:03:41] framework of a developing economy even

[01:03:44] though in many respects because of its

[01:03:46] technology boom it's no longer a

[01:03:48] developing economy. It uses that as an

[01:03:50] excuse to have the massive subsidies

[01:03:52] that it has for the green technology

[01:03:54] sector. Okay. Got it. And that's the big

[01:03:56] that's a problem that the Europeans and

[01:03:57] Brussels have or say the Brazilians or

[01:04:00] the G7 countries like Canada or

[01:04:02] Australia have about sort of the flood

[01:04:04] of of cheap uh electric vehicles is that

[01:04:07] the government um has historically done

[01:04:10] huge, you know, amounts of subsidies to

[01:04:12] support its local industry.

[01:04:15] It's a it's a it's such a fascinating

[01:04:18] time because

[01:04:21] China always seems to be looming, but

[01:04:23] you never know when the threat will ever

[01:04:25] be realized or if it is even a threat

[01:04:28] because

[01:04:30] what you know sometimes people talk

[01:04:33] about China as if it is waiting to take

[01:04:35] over the world.

[01:04:36] But then whenever I listen to what

[01:04:38] Chinese politicians will say publicly at

[01:04:40] least, they're like, "China has no

[01:04:42] interest in taking over the world.

[01:04:43] China's interest is in making China the

[01:04:45] best in China. And they'll always say

[01:04:47] like, "We've been around for 5,000

[01:04:48] years. We have no interest in going

[01:04:50] anywhere. Look at how big we are. Our

[01:04:53] goal is just to make this the shining

[01:04:54] beacon in the world." And and it's it's

[01:04:57] interesting to see how different those

[01:04:58] two viewpoints are.

[01:05:01] You know, the one viewpoint from most of

[01:05:02] the West is when a country is that big

[01:05:04] and that powerful, it's inevitable that

[01:05:05] it goes out.

[01:05:06] Yeah.

[01:05:07] And then the Chinese leaders will be

[01:05:08] like, "No, no, no. You go out. We don't

[01:05:10] go out. We we are going in and we're

[01:05:12] trying to extend our tentacles to grow

[01:05:14] this thing as big as possible. Where

[01:05:16] does where does the truth lie as you see

[01:05:17] it

[01:05:18] historically it's

[01:05:20] control the home base.

[01:05:22] Yeah.

[01:05:22] Um and now more in in the last couple

[01:05:26] decades it's about having influence

[01:05:27] globally. You know we talked about

[01:05:29] commodities supply chains even to some

[01:05:31] extent geopolitics but I I look to

[01:05:34] history. So the last time China um you

[01:05:37] know went out to Africa uh in imperial

[01:05:40] history was in the Ming dynasty in the

[01:05:41] 1500s. There was this um Muslim unic uh

[01:05:45] captain who was you know an amazing

[01:05:48] figure in Chinese history who went out

[01:05:49] all the way to Africa and brought back a

[01:05:51] giraffe to the the uh the emperor's

[01:05:53] [clears throat] emperor's court. And

[01:05:54] that was the last time after that they

[01:05:56] decided hey why are we going to Africa?

[01:05:58] It's too expensive. we should just focus

[01:06:00] on our own you know great culture and

[01:06:03] economy and and system and the other

[01:06:06] thing that I would say is that I don't

[01:06:08] think this is understood enough

[01:06:10] historically China has been

[01:06:13] controlled if you go to imperial history

[01:06:15] by non-hand people hand so the hand

[01:06:18] Chinese are the majority of the Chinese

[01:06:20] you know I think close to 90% of the

[01:06:22] population

[01:06:23] but you know if you look at theqing

[01:06:26] empire which is the last empire in China

[01:06:27] that was the manturian

[01:06:29] you know that area that is border is is

[01:06:31] the Korean peninsula um and northeast

[01:06:34] China

[01:06:35] they are not ethnically the same as the

[01:06:37] Han people they were basically

[01:06:39] foreigners who invaded and um you know

[01:06:42] took over the country

[01:06:44] uh and imposed things like the queue you

[01:06:46] know that in Chinese you've got the

[01:06:47] shaved head and the long braid that is

[01:06:49] not

[01:06:50] a hand Chinese that is not a that is a

[01:06:52] complete Ching Manurian

[01:06:54] your hand is still

[01:06:55] import [laughter]

[01:06:58] And then you also know that the Mongols

[01:06:59] took over course centuries before that

[01:07:02] and founded their own dynasty. So, so I

[01:07:05] China doesn't have that same historical

[01:07:07] legacy of going out and wanting to

[01:07:10] invade other countries and have an

[01:07:11] empire. In fact, it has more of a a

[01:07:13] historical experience of other countries

[01:07:14] wanting to try to

[01:07:16] take it,

[01:07:16] take it over. The British tried

[01:07:18] obviously and to some extent failed uh

[01:07:20] uh in the 1800s, but they did manage to

[01:07:22] take Hong Kong for instance. So it's

[01:07:24] just a different it's a different

[01:07:27] frameworking, a different historical

[01:07:29] legacy. But I think in the last two

[01:07:32] decades, the Chinese understand

[01:07:36] and I think this has really been borne

[01:07:37] out by the Iran crisis.

[01:07:38] Yeah.

[01:07:39] Is that you need to have influence a

[01:07:41] little bit everywhere. Yeah. like with

[01:07:42] the Gulfies, with the Africans, with the

[01:07:45] Russians, you know, have negotiations

[01:07:47] and deals everywhere so that if like

[01:07:49] there's a straight of home use crisis

[01:07:51] and 50% of hydrocarbons gets taken off

[01:07:55] the table for a period of time, then you

[01:07:57] can find resources to to replenish your

[01:08:00] stockpiles and import from other places

[01:08:02] around the world. So that's the that's

[01:08:04] the way that I look at it is it's less

[01:08:05] of an empire and it's more of a network

[01:08:08] of influence on trade, on geopolitics,

[01:08:11] on supply chains.

[01:08:13] So do do you think China is going to

[01:08:14] look to the robots? Is is that is that a

[01:08:17] conversation that they're having?

[01:08:18] Oh yeah, for sure. Is that robots are

[01:08:20] going to help with a demographic

[01:08:22] challenge and robots are going to be the

[01:08:24] next major export

[01:08:27] like EVs and solar panels and batteries

[01:08:29] were a decade ago? But help help me

[01:08:33] understand what solutions or what what

[01:08:36] problems the robots are actually going

[01:08:38] to be fixing

[01:08:40] because I understand okay there's

[01:08:42] there's the decline in terms of people's

[01:08:45] age and their ability to do things. So I

[01:08:47] guess robots taking care of people is

[01:08:48] that one aspect

[01:08:49] of elderly people.

[01:08:50] Okay. So robots taking care of elderly

[01:08:52] people.

[01:08:52] Yeah. And then you have more task

[01:08:54] specific you know uh robotic

[01:08:56] installations in already happening in

[01:08:58] factories. So dark factories that are

[01:09:00] completely uh devoid of humans basically

[01:09:03] and it's just machines

[01:09:06] uh uh robotic machines. Uh then you have

[01:09:08] certain hospitals and pharmaceutical

[01:09:11] uh uh companies that use again robotic

[01:09:14] arms to pick you know pick out

[01:09:16] somebody's orders or prescriptions

[01:09:18] without a human as well. Uh that's

[01:09:20] happening. Um and then some really

[01:09:23] interesting stuff that is more in in the

[01:09:25] brain chip interface that's happening

[01:09:28] both invasively and non-invasively. So

[01:09:30] on the non-invasively front, they have

[01:09:32] this um this device that sits on uh the

[01:09:35] skin that basically is able to control

[01:09:38] the brain um so that you can control uh

[01:09:41] an arm,

[01:09:43] a robotic arm, an external arm. So if

[01:09:44] you have an ampute, there's a company

[01:09:46] called Brain Co that's doing it. If

[01:09:48] you're an ampute, then your brain is

[01:09:50] able to it's able to pick up an electric

[01:09:52] electric signal through your brain. This

[01:09:54] chip device that sits on the skin and

[01:09:56] then and then move move your fingers and

[01:09:58] infer intention. And there's another one

[01:09:59] that's uh more invasive, which is a chip

[01:10:02] in interbedded into the brain that is

[01:10:04] helping people um who have spine

[01:10:07] injuries can't walk to to walk again. Um

[01:10:10] that's more in the kind of blended

[01:10:12] environment, not not purely robotics. Uh

[01:10:15] but I I I I suspect that we're going to

[01:10:17] see uh you know not just the humanoid

[01:10:21] robots that Elon wants to see but

[01:10:23] different you know task specific robotic

[01:10:26] installations you know the stuff that I

[01:10:27] mentioned that uh you know the arms that

[01:10:30] are picking up orders.

[01:10:31] Right. Right. Right. Just doing one

[01:10:32] specific task and just moving forward

[01:10:34] with that.

[01:10:35] Yeah. So for instance I was just in

[01:10:36] Beijing. I don't know if you guys have

[01:10:38] it here. Heidi which is the hot pot.

[01:10:40] It's the Chinese hot pot chain.

[01:10:42] No I don't know Hidilo.

[01:10:43] Okay. I highly recommend it if you guys

[01:10:45] go. A really really great um hot pot

[01:10:47] chain. Um the most successful hot pot

[01:10:49] chain in the world

[01:10:50] and um run by a Chinese woman as well.

[01:10:52] So it's you know it's a it's a great

[01:10:54] story.

[01:10:54] She single. [laughter]

[01:10:56] Sorry. Sorry.

[01:10:57] Asking for a friend.

[01:11:00] She might be too old for you.

[01:11:02] [laughter]

[01:11:04] This is not your Ukraine. relax

[01:11:09] Ukraine is they have um these robots

[01:11:12] that are picking up on people's orders.

[01:11:13] So whatever they know exactly what

[01:11:15] people's orders are and then they will

[01:11:16] put it on tray and deliver it. And then

[01:11:18] I was just touring Alibaba last year and

[01:11:21] they have this uh sort of logistics wing

[01:11:24] of their company because they started

[01:11:26] off as e-commerce,

[01:11:26] right?

[01:11:27] Where the robot is already able to sense

[01:11:30] the optimal and I wish I had the skill.

[01:11:33] The optimal way to arrange packing

[01:11:36] so that you use the least amount of

[01:11:38] paper, you use the least amount of

[01:11:39] product.

[01:11:40] Mh. So like like the robot has already

[01:11:42] figured out the machine and then the

[01:11:44] robot have figured out how do I like

[01:11:46] kind of like um

[01:11:47] so you can optimize your wastage

[01:11:50] minimize wastage essentially.

[01:11:52] Exactly. Cuz they can like 3D optimize

[01:11:54] space and figure out okay so this is how

[01:11:56] I put it all and this is the the

[01:11:58] smallest box that I can use for for this

[01:12:00] order. So you see everything you're

[01:12:02] saying there is what's terrifying most

[01:12:05] people around the world because they go

[01:12:06] I work in a factory where I pack boxes

[01:12:08] and I work in a pharmacy where I get

[01:12:10] people's medication and I work uh in in

[01:12:14] a you know logistics company and I and I

[01:12:16] and I and I

[01:12:17] and in America what they're being told

[01:12:19] is well look we'll figure it out in the

[01:12:22] future and uh the truth is the robots

[01:12:24] are taking your jobs and AI is taking

[01:12:26] your jobs and there's nothing you can do

[01:12:27] about it but hey man we'll figure it

[01:12:28] out. Let's let's let's do it and we'll

[01:12:30] figure it out. The other day I I read an

[01:12:32] article where they said the Chinese

[01:12:34] government

[01:12:35] put forward a law saying that companies

[01:12:38] cannot fire people only to replace them

[01:12:40] with AI

[01:12:42] which again now you want to talk about

[01:12:44] like the the the

[01:12:47] perspectives that people have or or um

[01:12:50] perceptions that they have of other

[01:12:51] I saw many Americans, British people who

[01:12:54] were going like oh my god yeah why is

[01:12:55] the Chinese government doing this for

[01:12:57] its people but our governments you can

[01:12:58] do this you can just make a law and the

[01:12:59] Chinese government's just like

[01:13:01] You cannot replace people. You cannot

[01:13:03] fire them just because of AI.

[01:13:05] Yeah. Because they know that they're

[01:13:06] going to be dead in 30 years anyway.

[01:13:07] Yeah. But what I'm saying is though,

[01:13:08] like

[01:13:09] I'm not trying to depress them while

[01:13:10] they're going after 25 minutes.

[01:13:12] Escalator [laughter]

[01:13:14] would have beyond.

[01:13:16] It would be crazy if the escalator just

[01:13:18] went to heaven and then you get there

[01:13:19] and you're like [laughter]

[01:13:21] it's like ah

[01:13:23] there are robots everywhere.

[01:13:24] Ah guys, you am the robot. I took

[01:13:26] [laughter] you there.

[01:13:28] Yeah. But you see like is that again to

[01:13:32] me seems like

[01:13:34] it seems like the Chinese government

[01:13:36] again

[01:13:38] pragmatically looking at a situation

[01:13:40] saying on the one hand we have to

[01:13:42] modernize but on the other hand if the

[01:13:44] people are completely left behind then

[01:13:46] this thing falls apart. Is is is that

[01:13:48] like how they think about everything? Is

[01:13:50] that even how they think about this

[01:13:51] situation?

[01:13:51] Mhm. Exactly. And there were two court

[01:13:53] rulings which you're also referencing uh

[01:13:55] in the last year or so. one in Beijing

[01:13:57] and one in Hjo in which they the court

[01:13:59] ruled on both accounts it was illegal to

[01:14:01] fire someone on the basis of AI right

[01:14:04] and um China in the last couple years

[01:14:07] has been at the forefront of AI

[01:14:08] regulation in terms of um data

[01:14:11] protection but also in terms of deep

[01:14:13] fake technologies where I don't think

[01:14:15] we're getting enough attention like you

[01:14:17] can't just copy somebody else's voice or

[01:14:21] or or use somebody else's image and

[01:14:24] impersonate them uh and monetize off of

[01:14:26] that there's regulations against that

[01:14:28] and I don't know if that's the case in

[01:14:29] the US as of yet but

[01:14:31] there's there's a few states that have

[01:14:33] imposed a few laws but they they

[01:14:35] obviously they apply to pornography and

[01:14:37] another one but they but it's not like a

[01:14:38] federal thing yet.

[01:14:39] Yeah. So the the Chinese government look

[01:14:41] at technology

[01:14:43] uh with a kind of I would say more

[01:14:46] balanced approach but also they have the

[01:14:48] power to do that in the way that I as I

[01:14:50] understand it in America they don't

[01:14:52] because there's a lot of you know vested

[01:14:54] interests

[01:14:56] get funded there's lobbying

[01:14:58] is that not a thing in China?

[01:14:59] No if you lobby the government uh if

[01:15:02] you're lobbying an official you will

[01:15:04] that official will probably be ousted

[01:15:06] for anti-corruption. Oh yeah. Yeah.

[01:15:08] That's because in most of the world what

[01:15:10] we call uh they call lobbying in

[01:15:11] America, we call it bribery.

[01:15:14] Yeah. Here it's legal. You you can

[01:15:16] lobby people with gifts and trips and

[01:15:19] everything. And that's just normal.

[01:15:21] And it's so funny cuz when I was growing

[01:15:23] up,

[01:15:23] I always used to think Africa was the

[01:15:25] most corrupt continent cuz that's what

[01:15:27] we were told.

[01:15:27] They would be like Africa the corrupt.

[01:15:29] So much corruption. So much corruption.

[01:15:30] And then when I moved to America, I was

[01:15:32] like, "Oh yes, you are right. There is

[01:15:35] way more corruption in Africa because we

[01:15:37] didn't think of calling it lobbying.

[01:15:39] Mhm.

[01:15:39] You are completely correct. You got us

[01:15:41] on that one. You got us. You know how

[01:15:43] you get rid of crime. You just stop

[01:15:45] saying it's a crime. That's the number

[01:15:46] one way to get rid of crime.

[01:15:48] You just say it's not a crime and then

[01:15:50] now your crime has gone down.

[01:15:51] I'm more interested in the future use of

[01:15:53] um

[01:15:55] robots to fill in the gaps. We've spoken

[01:15:57] about industry. We've spoken about how

[01:15:59] they can uh be useful in health. When

[01:16:01] one shoulder of Eugene goes up, it means

[01:16:03] sex is on his mind. [laughter]

[01:16:06] That's a That's a tip I'll treat I'll

[01:16:08] teach you about, my friend. As soon as

[01:16:10] one shoulder goes up like this, be like,

[01:16:12] "Oh, yeah. Eugene is stepping into the

[01:16:15] romantic [laughter] sphere." Oh, yeah.

[01:16:17] Here's Eugene. Sorry, my friend. Maybe I

[01:16:20] was wrong. Please ask your question.

[01:16:21] [laughter]

[01:16:22] Ask your question, Eugene.

[01:16:28] Let me not let me not [laughter]

[01:16:30] let me not punish you.

[01:16:31] You know what Trevor's like? He's like

[01:16:32] that friend at the bar. You're talking

[01:16:34] to a girl and he's like, "Oh, your wife

[01:16:36] TRIED TO CALL YOU." [laughter]

[01:16:38] HE'S the opposite of a wingman. The

[01:16:40] opposite.

[01:16:43] He's a tumor man. You [laughter] would

[01:16:50] YOU [laughter]

[01:16:56] Oh god.

[01:16:58] You going to tell us about um

[01:17:00] relationship robots?

[01:17:03] Is that a big It's not big in Japan is

[01:17:05] more big, right?

[01:17:06] Yeah, Japan is a big It's als So So AI

[01:17:08] ro uh so AI boyfriends

[01:17:10] companions. Yeah. AI companions.

[01:17:11] A big thing. It's happening in China.

[01:17:13] So, this is another thing that's

[01:17:14] stopping women from both sides, but

[01:17:16] women in particular, because now they

[01:17:18] have these amazing AI, thoughtful AI

[01:17:20] boyfriends.

[01:17:20] Damn it. Uh,

[01:17:21] we're being replaced.

[01:17:23] Yeah. Replaced by AI boyfriends that

[01:17:24] will check in with you and know exactly

[01:17:26] what to say. Damn.

[01:17:27] And make you feel good about yourself.

[01:17:29] Uh, that's already happening in China.

[01:17:31] Yeah.

[01:17:32] You know what? I I will say this. We We

[01:17:34] are quick to say that it's a bad thing.

[01:17:35] But maybe this is the future that we

[01:17:37] should be living in. a world where

[01:17:39] everyone has their AI perfect partner

[01:17:41] and then in order

[01:17:43] in order in order you speak for yourself

[01:17:46] and then all we do is we'll just create

[01:17:48] like sperm banks and like embryo banks

[01:17:50] and and then people can just have kids

[01:17:52] but your AI perfect partner is just

[01:17:54] there with you.

[01:17:55] No, men don't want an AI perfect.

[01:17:57] Why don't men want an AI perfect?

[01:17:58] You want to talk some more? [laughter]

[01:18:01] You think that's what we want to be?

[01:18:02] Yeah, but your AI partner won't won't

[01:18:04] make you talk more cuz it's a perfect

[01:18:06] partner. It'll do whatever you want it

[01:18:08] to do.

[01:18:08] Then it's not a partner.

[01:18:10] No, it will be the partner you want it

[01:18:12] to be. Think picture your perfect

[01:18:14] partner. That's how the AI will be.

[01:18:16] Yeah. But men want companionship, not

[01:18:18] partnership.

[01:18:18] It will also be

[01:18:19] partnership means we have an equal say

[01:18:20] in what we're doing, in what we're

[01:18:22] thinking, and what we're not doing.

[01:18:23] It can be that as well.

[01:18:24] Companionship means there's something or

[01:18:25] someone next to you.

[01:18:27] So, I'm glad you said a something

[01:18:29] because Alice and I would like to

[01:18:31] introduce you to a little robot that we

[01:18:33] call compan.

[01:18:35] [laughter]

[01:18:37] We'll be shipping it to your house,

[01:18:38] Eugene. And it's got a great great host

[01:18:41] of features. It's got a soft outer shell

[01:18:44] one,

[01:18:44] right? Uh it's it's got all the

[01:18:46] knowledge of you that you need.

[01:18:48] True.

[01:18:48] Uh and most importantly,

[01:18:50] uh it knows how to read your shoulder

[01:18:52] cues. [laughter]

[01:18:56] Let me let me ask you a question. um

[01:18:59] [laughter]

[01:19:01] because you know I I I realize this when

[01:19:03] talking to an expert like yourself

[01:19:05] sometimes we don't know what questions

[01:19:07] we should be asking because we don't

[01:19:09] have the expertise to know what the

[01:19:11] questions are. What are the questions

[01:19:12] you think people should be asking about

[01:19:14] China that they're not [clears throat]

[01:19:15] asking?

[01:19:16] I love that question and I think that

[01:19:18] people should do that more in general. I

[01:19:20] would say in especially in the AI realm

[01:19:24] talent flows really matter and I don't

[01:19:26] think people because there's such in

[01:19:28] such a haste to focus this is my other

[01:19:30] pet peeve on compute you know everyone's

[01:19:32] saying oh US compute is the biggest in

[01:19:34] the world we have an advantage and the

[01:19:36] frontier models

[01:19:37] but at the end of the day what really

[01:19:40] matters is having top tier AI talent and

[01:19:43] the fact that the plurality and actually

[01:19:46] in some respects the majority of top

[01:19:48] tier AI talent talent is Chinese

[01:19:50] nationals in the US

[01:19:52] is astounding. So 389%

[01:19:54] of top tier AI talent in Silicon Valley

[01:19:57] is Chinese nationals. They're not even

[01:19:59] Americanborn Chinese. There's Chinese

[01:20:01] nationals and 38% Americanborn

[01:20:04] uh engineers and then there's the rest

[01:20:05] of the world.

[01:20:06] Uh so if you think about that alone and

[01:20:09] then you couple that with the fact that

[01:20:10] China has uh 40% of graduates every year

[01:20:14] in STEM as opposed to in the US it's 20%

[01:20:17] of graduates every year is in STEM. uh

[01:20:19] five million of STEM graduates graduate

[01:20:21] almost every year in China and enter the

[01:20:24] workforce. I don't think people

[01:20:26] understand enough how important that

[01:20:28] just scale but also the talent of these

[01:20:31] top tier researchers are for for AI

[01:20:34] development for technological

[01:20:35] development. I think that's really

[01:20:36] understated and does not really captured

[01:20:38] in economic models but super important

[01:20:41] when we think about innovation in the

[01:20:42] next frontier. and and what do you think

[01:20:45] some of the questions are that we're not

[01:20:46] asking about like China's vision and its

[01:20:50] demographics and its sort of future

[01:20:53] plans as a whole beyond the space of AI

[01:20:55] and technology. So uh beyond AI and

[01:20:58] technology, I think the big question is

[01:21:02] what is going to happen to and again

[01:21:04] it's tied to to youths uh is like what

[01:21:08] is going to happen to the Gen Z in China

[01:21:10] because the boomers and the millennials

[01:21:13] kind of really got to write the cotell

[01:21:15] of China's economic rise

[01:21:17] and in the next couple years I believe

[01:21:19] there will be upwards to five trillion

[01:21:21] US dollars of intergenerational wealth

[01:21:24] transfer from the boomers to Gen Z in

[01:21:26] So that's a lot of change that is going

[01:21:28] to be transferred over and the question

[01:21:29] is how are they going to invest it? What

[01:21:32] are they going to do with the money? Um

[01:21:34] are they going to decide to work as hard

[01:21:35] as their parents?

[01:21:36] Yeah. Would it affect their work ethic?

[01:21:37] Yeah.

[01:21:37] Yeah. You know, are they going to be

[01:21:39] motivated to get married or not? You

[01:21:42] know, how are they going to think about

[01:21:44] um their economic development, you know,

[01:21:47] in a slowing China? I think that is the

[01:21:49] big question. and we haven't figured it

[01:21:51] out yet because both narratives of like

[01:21:53] the youth are checked out and mailing it

[01:21:55] in but also the youth are really

[01:21:57] hardworking and excited about AI both

[01:21:59] realities coexist and then the big

[01:22:02] question is which pathway do we take

[01:22:05] like will with will Chinese youths and

[01:22:07] the industry get super excited about AI

[01:22:09] and will China be uh not just a near

[01:22:12] peer competitor with the US but a leader

[01:22:14] because maybe it's not just LLMs that

[01:22:16] matter and maybe there are other

[01:22:18] innovations that that young Chinese

[01:22:20] people can design because they've

[01:22:21] already shown Chinese companies have

[01:22:23] already shown that they're not just good

[01:22:24] at iteration but also good at innovation

[01:22:27] and making very viral stuff. Like who

[01:22:29] would have thought a couple years ago

[01:22:31] that the most viral videos and content

[01:22:34] AI generated would come out of China.

[01:22:36] Yeah.

[01:22:36] From Tik Tok.

[01:22:38] No one [clears throat] would have

[01:22:38] thought that. And that gave birth to a

[01:22:40] whole rise of content creators and

[01:22:42] influencers.

[01:22:44] Damn. It really is going to be exciting.

[01:22:47] Very exciting. It's like a Yeah. I mean,

[01:22:50] we to see the China that we grew up

[01:22:52] with, the China that we're living with

[01:22:54] now,

[01:22:55] the China. Yeah. The China we've been

[01:22:57] told about, and the China that is.

[01:22:59] Uh, if we go to China, where should we

[01:23:01] go first?

[01:23:02] Well, I'm super biased cuz I'm from

[01:23:04] Shanghai.

[01:23:05] So, you have to go there. It's like the

[01:23:06] Paris of China.

[01:23:07] Oh, Shanghai is like the Paris. It's

[01:23:09] really

[01:23:09] People are irritated that you're there

[01:23:11] when you're not.

[01:23:11] Well, they're kind of arrog They're

[01:23:12] arrogant. They think they're the best

[01:23:14] people in China.

[01:23:15] Okay. I like that.

[01:23:16] They like look down at everyone else.

[01:23:17] Yeah, that's the pair of [laughter]

[01:23:18] people are just like what are you doing?

[01:23:19] They dress better. They they look down

[01:23:21] on everyone else in China.

[01:23:22] Okay.

[01:23:23] And they just think that they're

[01:23:24] culturally superior.

[01:23:25] Okay, cool.

[01:23:25] But but you get the best I think you get

[01:23:27] some of the best restaurants. It's super

[01:23:28] cosmopolitan for a mainland city in

[01:23:31] China. And there are some areas

[01:23:32] historically where there's like

[01:23:34] beautiful

[01:23:35] um art deco Spanish revival buildings

[01:23:38] cuz remember in the Republican era, so

[01:23:40] the early 1900s in China, there were a

[01:23:42] lot of westerners who were living there.

[01:23:43] They had different concession areas or

[01:23:45] zones. So there's a French concession

[01:23:47] zone.

[01:23:47] Oh, so they could like build their own

[01:23:48] architecture and they did their own

[01:23:50] thing.

[01:23:50] It's the opposite of Chinatown,

[01:23:51] ironically. Yeah. French town. French

[01:23:53] town.

[01:23:53] European French town. American town.

[01:23:55] That's wild. That one go

[01:23:56] where they had their own laws. They had

[01:23:58] their own laws. So they they Chinese

[01:24:00] government couldn't interfere with them.

[01:24:02] Hanoi more French influence right

[01:24:04] in Vietnam. Yeah.

[01:24:06] That was the French and so all these

[01:24:07] like places in the world where Huh. They

[01:24:09] own laws.

[01:24:11] Yeah. Extra territorial laws in the

[01:24:13] 1900s which is crazy. Yeah. And then the

[01:24:15] other place I would definitely go, do

[01:24:17] you like spicy food?

[01:24:20] Do I like spicy food?

[01:24:22] Finish with your list. I've got my list

[01:24:23] for Alice.

[01:24:24] Do I like spicy food?

[01:24:26] Cosmopolitan snobs.

[01:24:27] He doesn't like spicy food.

[01:24:28] No, he does. Does he?

[01:24:30] I can't tell.

[01:24:31] You think you got those pink ears by

[01:24:32] mistake? [laughter]

[01:24:34] Do I like spicy? Let me tell you

[01:24:36] something. If you can find me.

[01:24:38] Yes.

[01:24:39] Eugene will always tell me not to call

[01:24:40] it this, but pig feet. I just call them

[01:24:42] pig feet. Pig trotters. Then gonna say

[01:24:45] pork trotters. I [laughter] call them

[01:24:47] pig feet.

[01:24:48] Pig feet.

[01:24:48] Yeah. Like is it is it how am I

[01:24:52] pronouncing it correctly? Is it Hananese

[01:24:53] Hunanese cuisine?

[01:24:54] Hunan. Yeah. Hunan spicy. Very spicy.

[01:24:58] The the pepper that like makes your

[01:25:00] mouth feel like it's flipped upside

[01:25:01] down.

[01:25:02] That's a good way of describing mala.

[01:25:03] That's that's like

[01:25:04] the Sichuan peppercornic.

[01:25:05] Yeah. the Sichuan peppercorn where it

[01:25:07] like flips everything and then you you

[01:25:08] hot is cold and cold is hot and and

[01:25:11] sweet is sour and like have you ever

[01:25:13] have you ever had it?

[01:25:14] Your mom your dating history

[01:25:17] as you can see I love spicy. [laughter]

[01:25:20] Well, you know in Chinese like if you to

[01:25:22] describe a sexy woman is she's spicy.

[01:25:24] Oh that okay

[01:25:27] and women in women in Sichuan are

[01:25:29] particularly spicy both in terms of what

[01:25:31] they eat. Yeah. So but it used to go the

[01:25:33] pand if you're not into women you've got

[01:25:34] pandas there. Uh uh uh. Eugene, I guess

[01:25:37] your list is now being dealt with.

[01:25:39] [laughter]

[01:25:39] As you see, my list my list with women

[01:25:43] was done. Alice moved on to

[01:25:44] You see what [laughter] YOU'VE DONE?

[01:25:46] ALICE MOVED on to the panda bears. So,

[01:25:48] sorry Eugene, you can go with your list.

[01:25:51] I'M MORE OF A KOALA GUY MYSELF.

[01:25:53] [laughter]

[01:25:54] F IS FAIR.

[01:26:00] [laughter]

[01:26:01] Oh man. Okay. Wait, wait. No, no. But my

[01:26:04] my cities okay Shanghai and then where

[01:26:05] else should I go?

[01:26:06] Um um Chongqing which is in Sichuan

[01:26:08] province.

[01:26:09] Okay now I'm there I'm going to get all

[01:26:10] my spicy food

[01:26:11] and then if you go very close to that is

[01:26:12] Chungdul which is also in the same

[01:26:13] province and that's where the pandas

[01:26:15] are.

[01:26:15] Okay.

[01:26:15] Um

[01:26:16] I do love pandas I can't confront.

[01:26:17] Amazing. And then I think that uh

[01:26:20] all pandas in the world are owned by

[01:26:21] China. Did you know that?

[01:26:22] All of them.

[01:26:22] All of them. There's no panda in the

[01:26:24] world that is not owned by China. They

[01:26:25] don't allow anyone to own a panda bear.

[01:26:28] they you can have it and look after it,

[01:26:30] sort of lease it from them, but the

[01:26:32] Chinese government goes, "This thing

[01:26:34] represents us and it is our animal.

[01:26:36] We're not going to let you you're not

[01:26:37] allowed to breed it anywhere. You're not

[01:26:38] allowed, not that you sort of can cuz

[01:26:40] you know they're notorious for not

[01:26:41] wanting to to smash, but um so but panda

[01:26:44] bears are all owned by the Chinese

[01:26:45] government." Just fun fact, I love panda

[01:26:46] bears.

[01:26:47] That's crazy xenophobia.

[01:26:48] I love panda bears. [laughter]

[01:26:50] I really really love panda. I'll show

[01:26:52] you my my WhatsApp. Um

[01:26:53] is it a panda bear?

[01:26:55] This is That's my See my WhatsApp. Oh,

[01:26:57] that's

[01:26:57] profile picture.

[01:26:59] That's

[01:26:59] so I love Panda Biz, but okay. So, and

[01:27:02] then one other city.

[01:27:03] Um, well, this is might be underrated

[01:27:06] because most people go to Shien,

[01:27:07] Beijing, but I love Yunan, which is the

[01:27:10] one I mentioned.

[01:27:11] Um, because

[01:27:12] they wear linen pants

[01:27:13] where they wear linen pants and they're

[01:27:14] super hippie. They have amazing cafes.

[01:27:16] It's like the it's like the hippie cafe

[01:27:19] central part of China where people

[01:27:21] people love just sitting out and having

[01:27:23] coffee. And

[01:27:24] how long does it take you to get around

[01:27:25] when you're in China? Like if if you if

[01:27:26] you're in Shanghai, how quick is it to

[01:27:28] go somewhere else? Are we taking the

[01:27:29] train?

[01:27:30] At the high speed. So Shanghai to

[01:27:31] Beijing high speed is around 4 and a

[01:27:32] half hours.

[01:27:33] Man, that's amazing. How

[01:27:34] And that's with a high speed.

[01:27:35] It's a high speed.

[01:27:36] Yeah. But what is that distance though?

[01:27:38] That's huge.

[01:27:38] How far was it before the high speed?

[01:27:40] Uh days, my brother.

[01:27:42] No wonder Genghaskhan gave up.

[01:27:44] [laughter]

[01:27:45] No, it's days, my man. But what what is

[01:27:47] the distance? It's um

[01:27:48] Yeah, it's it's hu I think I I don't

[01:27:51] want to butcher it, but it's like it's

[01:27:54] definitely bigger than New York to

[01:27:55] Boston.

[01:27:56] Yeah, it's way way more

[01:27:58] I'd need to look it up. I'm not really

[01:28:00] sure.

[01:28:01] H Okay, that's that's me.

[01:28:02] That's your list. And yeah, any

[01:28:03] questions you have? Alice, if you could

[01:28:06] for an intrepid traveler such as myself

[01:28:08] and a humanitarian at at most

[01:28:15] where I could assist the Chinese

[01:28:17] population

[01:28:20] the most

[01:28:22] given my

[01:28:24] you know acquired skills over time.

[01:28:27] Where would you [laughter]

[01:28:29] what are the acquired skills? Eugene

[01:28:30] wants to know. Eugene wants to know

[01:28:32] where he can earn $50,000. That's

[01:28:34] [laughter] that's what Eugene wants to

[01:28:35] know.

[01:28:35] Oh, you could be an you could be like

[01:28:37] there are a lot of African influences in

[01:28:38] China that that are doing really really

[01:28:41] well.

[01:28:42] No, no, no. Eugene specific. Remember

[01:28:43] you said someone pays $50,000 for a

[01:28:46] specific package. [laughter]

[01:28:49] Go and work for SERIP. He'll pay you

[01:28:51] $50,000 per baby.

[01:28:53] Yes.

[01:28:54] My resignation [laughter]

[01:28:57] has now officially been tended. See you

[01:29:00] Alice. This was amazing. Thank you very

[01:29:01] much. This was Yeah. I I think one of

[01:29:04] the biggest things you've left us with

[01:29:06] and I hope everyone will will walk away

[01:29:08] with this is

[01:29:10] take everything you get not with a grain

[01:29:13] of salt but with the understanding that

[01:29:15] it is limited by the fact that it's not

[01:29:19] made from the place or by the place.

[01:29:21] It's not the language of the country. It

[01:29:23] is not the news of the country. It's not

[01:29:25] the people of the country and you've

[01:29:26] never been there. I even say this as a

[01:29:27] South African. the amount of times I've

[01:29:28] had to like correct people's perceptions

[01:29:30] on South Africa because they have an

[01:29:31] idea from the media which most people

[01:29:33] will have.

[01:29:34] So, you know, I'm not saying it's a um a

[01:29:37] sinister thing that people form is uh is

[01:29:39] is a good reminder, but man, we've got

[01:29:42] to go to China and just see this for

[01:29:43] ourselves.

[01:29:44] Escalators, spicy food,

[01:29:47] be walking the talk by being there.

[01:29:49] Yeah, I know. For sure.

[01:29:49] We're living there now

[01:29:50] for sure.

[01:29:51] Oh, man. All the best.

[01:29:52] You guys really should go do a comedy

[01:29:54] show. It's getting popular again in

[01:29:56] China. Ah, you you spoke to the wrong

[01:29:58] guys. We're there. We're there like a

[01:30:00] panda bear in our underwear.

[01:30:02] Thought you forgot that rhyme.

[01:30:04] My friend, there's nothing panda bear

[01:30:06] related I've ever forgotten. Eugene

[01:30:07] [music]

[01:30:08] ever. But the one with the smear.

[01:30:11] [laughter]

[01:30:12] Alice, this was so much fun. Thank you.

[01:30:14] Oh, it's so fun to be here. Thanks,

[01:30:15] guys.

[01:30:15] No, this was great, man. Thank you very

[01:30:17] much.

[01:30:19] Thank you so much for watching the

[01:30:20] episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on

[01:30:23] to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it,

[01:30:24] pass it on to your friends still. Let

[01:30:27] them suffer for a change. And don't

[01:30:29] forget to engage with us in the

[01:30:30] comments. Uh if you want to suggest a

[01:30:32] guest, maybe there's questions you want,

[01:30:34] maybe there's ideas that you have, you

[01:30:36] can chat to us. [music] We will read

[01:30:37] through the comments and we'll get into

[01:30:39] it. Either way, I appreciate you taking

[01:30:41] the time. Thank you for hanging [music]

[01:30:42] out with us on What Now. And remember,

[01:30:44] we do this for you, so we would like to

[01:30:46] hear from you. [music] Till next time.

[01:30:48] Thank you.