# Tuesday Talks 2026 - Research, Résumés, and What Colleges Actually Care About

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1l_Ac8wmcg
Translation: zh-CN

[00:00] Cool.

[00:00] If for some reason your Zoom pops out,

[00:03] which it does sometimes,

[00:04] you can find us on our YouTube channel

[00:06] and also on WeChat. So,

[00:08] um and on WeChat,

[00:10] uh there should be

[00:12] um Chinese translation.

[00:21] Um okay, I think those are the nuts and

[00:24] bolts. Um I am very, very honored to

[00:27] have these wonderful friends and guests

[00:30] with me. Um they're willing to wake up

[00:33] early

[00:34] and be ready in their offices

[00:37] um to talk about all sorts of topics.

[00:39] And today's topic we're talking about

[00:42] research, but also some other things

[00:44] that you might have on your application

[00:46] or want to have on your application. Or

[00:48] if you're not actually applying yet, the

[00:49] things that you're doing right now in

[00:51] your life.

[00:52] Um

[00:53] uh so,

[00:54] but before we dive into the actual

[00:56] topic, we're going to introduce

[00:57] ourselves. So,

[00:59] um Justin, why don't you start off?

[01:02] Sure thing. Uh thanks for having me this

[01:03] morning. Uh my name is Justin Moni. I'm

[01:06] the deputy director of admission at

[01:08] Carnegie Mellon University in

[01:09] Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Um I've been

[01:12] with the office of admission uh for 17

[01:14] years now. Uh and a fun fact is that

[01:16] while I work in the city of Pittsburgh,

[01:18] I live about 35 mi outside of the city.

[01:20] So, I actually live on a family farm uh

[01:22] of about 200 acres. Uh I'm in my home

[01:25] office right now and I can see a couple

[01:27] of horses out that window. So, it's a a

[01:29] very uh a very different place than than

[01:32] than my campus, my professional life.

[01:36] Amazing.

[01:37] Um I did not know that you lived on a

[01:39] farm. And I've known you for a while.

[01:41] See, this is why I do the fun facts,

[01:42] guys.

[01:44] Okay, Istiar.

[01:47] Hello everyone. My name's Istiar, easy

[01:49] him pronounce. I'm at Swarthmore College

[01:51] uh right by Philadelphia in

[01:53] Pennsylvania.

[01:55] Uh

[01:56] I've been in the office for a few years,

[01:58] but I've been in admissions for for over

[02:00] a decade. My fun fact is that I was

[02:02] denied from Swarthmore when I applied

[02:04] here for college.

[02:05] And now I get to decide who comes here.

[02:07] So, be careful. But no,

[02:11] really my my shout-out is to folks, you

[02:13] know, there's so much to do and explore

[02:16] in this process. So, take it easy.

[02:18] You'll end up where you need to be in

[02:19] the end.

[02:20] Awesome.

[02:21] And John.

[02:24] Hi everyone. I'm John Lee and I'm with

[02:27] Caltech. You can read my long title.

[02:29] Basically what it boils down to is that

[02:31] I oversee marketing communications for

[02:33] Caltech. So,

[02:35] everything like the spam emails that you

[02:37] eventually get when you sign up to be on

[02:39] our mailing mailing list through our

[02:41] website to just like any print

[02:44] brochures and stuff. Fun fact about me

[02:46] is I am the territory manager for New

[02:49] York and East Asia and I have been to

[02:51] every single country that I'm a

[02:53] territory manager for. So, that includes

[02:55] China,

[02:57] Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore is

[03:00] actually a part of my territory as well.

[03:01] So, very well versed with

[03:04] with that population.

[03:06] Amazing. Um well, great. Uh and again,

[03:10] my name is Gloria. If you don't know me,

[03:12] I am one of the co-founders of Initial

[03:13] View

[03:15] and every time we get to this part, I

[03:17] say, "Oh, no." because I really shared

[03:20] all of my fun facts. I can't just be

[03:22] that fun. So,

[03:24] but um if I have to share one today,

[03:26] let's see. Today, I'm going to say that

[03:29] my fun fact is um I am relearning AP

[03:34] Macroeconomics because my daughter is

[03:36] taking that class.

[03:38] And there were a few things that she

[03:40] didn't understand. So, I I used AI to

[03:45] like re-teach myself some key concepts

[03:48] of AP AP Macroeconomics. So,

[03:51] um so, you can learn anything at any

[03:53] age.

[03:55] Um,

[03:56] fun. Well, I have launched a poll if you

[03:58] didn't see it already and I'm really

[04:00] excited because usually when I launch a

[04:03] poll, only 30% of you are responding and

[04:05] we already have 43%. So, if you don't

[04:07] see it on your screen, find it. Curious

[04:10] to see who is here today. Um, and so

[04:13] far, um, for my panelists benefit, we're

[04:16] looking at 44% students. So, students

[04:20] and then the next group is parents and

[04:21] then we've got a good chunk of

[04:22] counselors as well.

[04:24] And the majority of those are class of

[04:26] 2027. So, juniors ready to to figure out

[04:30] the next steps. So, um, so that Thank

[04:34] you for taking that poll. It gives us a

[04:36] little bit of

[04:37] um, framework as we begin talking

[04:40] um, about what we're going to talk about

[04:42] today. And here we go with the slides.

[04:46] We're going to start with just having

[04:48] you hear from each school because you'll

[04:51] learn a little bit about them and also

[04:52] that'll give you a little bit of context

[04:54] on how they look at the application. So,

[04:56] John's going to start us off.

[04:59] Yeah, um, again, I'm with Caltech. We

[05:02] are a small STEM research institute

[05:05] located in Pasadena, California, just

[05:08] right south right outside of Los

[05:09] Angeles, so about 20 minutes to downtown

[05:12] core. Our mission really is uh,

[05:14] research. So, that's the primary reason

[05:16] why students will choose Caltech over a

[05:18] lot of the other uh, institutions that

[05:20] they get it's because they do have that

[05:22] access to it due to the small

[05:24] three-to-one student faculty ratio as

[05:26] well as just being able to get into labs

[05:29] uh, as early as their first year. Uh,

[05:31] we're also known for our academic rigor,

[05:33] so students here really want to continue

[05:36] pushing themselves when they get to

[05:37] Caltech. All students have to go through

[05:39] the first year core of calculus,

[05:41] chemistry, physics, and biology with

[05:43] regards to like whatever major you

[05:45] decide to pursue uh, afterwards. So, you

[05:48] know, I highly recommend that if you're

[05:49] like, I really want to major in

[05:50] philosophy, which we do have one, that

[05:53] you should probably really really enjoy

[05:55] calculus and physics cuz you're going to

[05:56] see that throughout your time at

[05:58] Caltech. And

[06:00] really those are just some of the the

[06:02] big highlights. I'm happy to kind of go

[06:04] deeper once we get into the Q&A and

[06:07] panelist portion of it.

[06:14] All right. So, I'm up next. So, Carnegie

[06:16] Mellon University is a medium-sized

[06:18] research university.

[06:20] We have about 7,800 undergraduate

[06:23] students and we're located in the city

[06:25] of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We are an

[06:27] urban campus located just a few miles

[06:29] from the metropolitan area, but as you

[06:32] can see from the this slide, the campus

[06:34] itself has a lot of green space. There's

[06:36] three main lawns, about 200 acres.

[06:39] So, it feels very much like a campus

[06:41] environment with the easy access to the

[06:43] city. Academically, Carnegie Mellon is a

[06:47] a very interdisciplinary and

[06:48] well-rounded place. We're probably

[06:50] equally well-known for our pursuits in

[06:52] technical and creative fields. We have

[06:54] six different undergraduate colleges and

[06:57] in no particular order, those colleges

[06:58] are the School of Computer Science, the

[07:00] College of Engineering, the Mellon

[07:02] College of Science, the Tepper School of

[07:04] Business, the Dietrich College of

[07:06] Humanities and Social Sciences, and our

[07:08] College of Fine Arts, which includes

[07:10] programs in art, architecture, design,

[07:12] drama, and music. Our student body is a

[07:15] a very diverse student body. We bring

[07:17] together students from all 50 states as

[07:19] well as over 70 different countries.

[07:21] About 17% of our undergraduate

[07:24] population are international students

[07:26] that are studying here at CMU on a visa.

[07:29] I'm happy to to tell you a little bit

[07:30] more about the institution and our

[07:32] process as we get into the panel

[07:33] conversation.

[07:40] Hello, I'm back. Talk about Swarthmore

[07:42] College. We're on the other side of

[07:43] Pennsylvania. So, CMU is in Pittsburgh.

[07:46] We're right outside Philadelphia.

[07:48] We're a small liberal arts college of

[07:50] about 1,700 students. Also coming from

[07:53] all around the country, all around the

[07:54] world. Uh you know, three things I like

[07:57] to highlight. One is Philadelphia, the

[07:59] sixth largest city in the country. Just

[08:01] so much on offer.

[08:02] If you love Philly sports teams, if you

[08:04] hate Philly sports teams, they're all

[08:06] here for you to enjoy and watch along

[08:07] with the museums, the history, the

[08:09] culture.

[08:10] And so there's always something to do

[08:12] out there. But here on campus, we keep

[08:14] pretty busy as well. We have a cash-free

[08:16] campus and something we highlight is

[08:18] getting students access and and sort of

[08:20] the same experience regardless of your

[08:22] socioeconomic background. So there's no

[08:23] extra cost to attend programs, buy your

[08:26] textbooks,

[08:28] get go to the food trucks that we bring

[08:29] to campus. And so that really adds to

[08:32] the dynamism of the campus life. And we

[08:35] like to talk about our research and our

[08:37] academic experience where in we're top

[08:40] three in the country in terms of the

[08:41] number of students we send into PhD

[08:43] programs. After they graduate at some

[08:45] point and so

[08:46] it is a place where research is valued,

[08:48] emphasized across all fields,

[08:51] humanities, natural sciences, and social

[08:52] sciences.

[08:53] And you know, we spend almost a million

[08:55] dollars every year

[08:57] funding our research for students and

[08:59] faculty across our campus. So, happy to

[09:02] chat today.

[09:06] Awesome. Okay, so before we start

[09:09] talking about the topic at hand,

[09:13] there's always a question at the Tuesday

[09:14] talks for each of these institutions of

[09:17] like what kind of student would do well

[09:21] at your campus. So, and I know lots of

[09:24] types of students could potentially do

[09:25] well at your campuses. But like is there

[09:28] like a type or a something that you're

[09:31] some value or that you're looking for

[09:34] that feels like this person would be

[09:36] really successful on our campus.

[09:41] I I can start. Um in reverse order, we

[09:45] we do actually have eight qualities and

[09:47] characteristics listed on our website,

[09:48] and I always caution students you don't

[09:50] need all eight

[09:52] uh because if you are perfect, you

[09:53] wouldn't need to come here, right? Uh

[09:55] but I think those that rise to the top

[09:57] most often, it's a pretty nerdy campus,

[09:59] so intellectual curiosity

[10:01] uh is is high on the list for for what

[10:03] we see and look for amongst our

[10:04] students. Uh empathy, you know, the

[10:07] ability to connect with others and see

[10:08] different perspectives, and

[10:11] uh sense of civic engagement. Uh I think

[10:13] we're here to learn, but also apply what

[10:14] we're learning for the betterment of of

[10:16] the world beyond Swarthmore. So, those

[10:18] are some a few of the things we look

[10:19] for.

[10:23] Yeah, I I'll go next.

[10:24] Um

[10:25] another fun fact, we're testing out some

[10:27] new marketing language. So, I guess I'll

[10:29] try it on you all. So, I guess

[10:32] uh you know, we we in the past had these

[10:35] also some type of frameworks that we use

[10:36] for students. Curiosity, uh

[10:39] collaboration, um creativity, things of

[10:41] that nature, and that is still something

[10:43] that we really want to look for, but you

[10:46] know, I think we want to drive the point

[10:48] home, so we're rolling out STEM

[10:51] obsessed. This is going to be a new

[10:53] webpage where we're going to just talk

[10:54] about wanting to see students who are

[10:56] just all in on it, right? And that and

[10:58] that I think actually think will touch

[11:00] upon um this talk in terms of research

[11:03] resumes. What how you talk and write

[11:05] about it is really important. And I and

[11:07] I say that because um the typical

[11:10] Caltech student is engaging in STEM with

[11:13] the average of 60 hours a week. That's

[11:14] 45 hours in academics, so class,

[11:18] homework, studying, and then typically

[11:20] 15 hours in a research lab, right? So,

[11:23] it's it's kind of hard if you're not

[11:25] obsessed uh in in that kind of way just

[11:27] because all your classmates are, and

[11:29] that's what everyone else is doing, so

[11:31] it leaves very little room. I mean, you

[11:33] can still do other stuff, but it does

[11:34] leave very little room to kind of engage

[11:37] in other activities. It's usually seen

[11:39] more as an outlet than your main driver

[11:42] of being at Caltech, so we want to make

[11:43] sure that

[11:45] students coming here know what they're

[11:46] getting into and and are going to be

[11:48] happy in such a niche type of

[11:50] environment.

[11:54] For Carnegie Mellon, we're we're very

[11:56] well known as a place where where

[11:57] students learn by doing, where you're

[11:58] going to roll up your sleeves and you're

[12:00] going to do work that matters. Apply

[12:02] what you're learning in the classroom

[12:04] in real-world settings, whether that

[12:06] means getting on the stage as a

[12:07] musician, out in the community as a

[12:09] social scientist, or spending time in

[12:11] the research lab as as a chemist. So, we

[12:14] look for a lot of underlying

[12:15] characteristics for for students to be

[12:18] able to apply what what they're

[12:21] learning. So, an ability to collaborate,

[12:23] to persist to goal completion, students

[12:26] that exhibit pro-social motivations that

[12:28] are going to take what they're learning

[12:30] and and apply it to society for the

[12:31] betterment of others. These are are all

[12:34] characteristics that that we value and

[12:36] we think are really pay off in the kind

[12:38] of work that our students do.

[12:44] Awesome. Well, we're going to talk about

[12:46] research because that was the kind of

[12:48] main

[12:49] um main topic

[12:52] of choice this week and the word

[12:55] research is

[12:57] means many things actually.

[13:00] Um but I think in this context, a lot of

[13:02] people have been asking one, there's two

[13:05] questions. One, pre-college research,

[13:08] like

[13:09] should I be doing research, quote

[13:11] unquote, and then there is the

[13:13] research-based university. Like, what

[13:15] does that mean? So, we're going to touch

[13:17] on both, um but for the first question,

[13:20] I mean, just a general question, like,

[13:21] what is it What is research when a

[13:24] student says, like, should I be doing

[13:26] research? What is going on in your brain

[13:28] as an admissions officer or recruiter?

[13:34] Yeah, I think I'll I'll take that one

[13:35] for ours just cuz we've really had to

[13:38] operationalize it the past year.

[13:40] So, we have two when we think of

[13:43] research or is all first of all you

[13:44] don't need to do research to get into

[13:45] Caltech. I want to and I'm sure for all

[13:46] schools too, right? We want to make that

[13:48] very clear for our students who actually

[13:50] have formal engagement. That's less than

[13:52] 35% of of our admitted students in the

[13:54] current class. And we all can probably

[13:56] understand how students get these

[13:58] research opportunities, you know, it's

[13:59] it's really rare and hard to come by.

[14:02] So, but for Caltech, we do want to see

[14:05] if you have done it, we want to make

[14:07] sure that you're able to present it in a

[14:08] way that's meaningful and impactful to

[14:11] your application. So, in the past year,

[14:13] we've actually split research into two

[14:16] types of definitions in terms of our

[14:18] portfolio. So, you have a pure research,

[14:22] which in order for you to count that as

[14:24] research, it has to have been done

[14:27] at a lab setting, right? So, university,

[14:29] hospital.

[14:30] It has to be done through a primary

[14:33] investigator. So, whoever that research

[14:35] PI is that's sponsoring you and

[14:38] hopefully paying you.

[14:39] You know, we really believe in paid

[14:40] work. And then also

[14:43] it leads to a publication, right? Or a

[14:45] research paper. So, that is how we

[14:47] decided to define research. And then

[14:51] also you have to then do a viva, which

[14:54] we I can go into later when we when we

[14:55] talk more about what that process is

[14:57] like and and then for the non-stem for

[15:00] the STEM portfolio that's non-research,

[15:02] you can still have research, but that's

[15:04] where it's all the other stuff, right?

[15:06] So, that's where it's through summer

[15:08] programs like summer science program and

[15:10] it's through like the one at Oberlin,

[15:13] Pioneer for example, that would also or

[15:15] laser research programs or you know,

[15:17] you're doing something that you're

[15:18] really interested and you found your own

[15:20] mentor and you're doing this

[15:21] self-research. Um another one would be

[15:24] uh just your AP research, IB so like,

[15:27] you know, theory of knowledge. So,

[15:28] that's what we count as

[15:30] um STEM portfolio versus research. And I

[15:33] think both are equally important. Both

[15:35] will be reviewed by faculty. We just

[15:37] look at them in different lenses.

[15:41] I'm glad you started, John, because you

[15:42] all have a very niche uh specific way to

[15:45] look at them.

[15:48] Um Justin, do you want to talk a little

[15:51] bit about what research means to you?

[15:53] >> Yeah, absolutely. So,

[15:55] I I think for me, when I I hear about

[15:58] students doing research, I want to hear

[16:00] uh about the experience. Uh

[16:02] you know, certainly the the act of doing

[16:04] research, I think, is going to require a

[16:06] lot of those characteristics that I

[16:08] mentioned that we we value. As as John

[16:10] was talking to, if you're working under

[16:11] a PI, you've got to be able to

[16:13] communicate and collaborate. These are

[16:16] our core competencies for success at at

[16:18] Carnegie Mellon. Uh if you're going to

[16:21] to ultimately publish a paper, that's a

[16:23] long-term goal. You're you're showing an

[16:25] an ability to persist. You're showing a

[16:27] growth mindset.

[16:29] A lot of research uh is on topics that

[16:32] that uh can benefit social good. You're

[16:35] showing that pro-social motivation.

[16:36] There's all these underlying

[16:37] characteristics that that we can really

[16:39] really value. And I always encourage

[16:42] students think about research through

[16:45] that lens. And as you're presenting it

[16:47] in your application, be sure to present

[16:50] that that experience of doing research.

[16:52] Because sometimes, I think students view

[16:55] research simply as uh a credential, as a

[16:58] box to check off. If I can list I

[17:01] published something,

[17:03] I'm I'm more competitive. And that's not

[17:05] always always the case. We we want to

[17:07] peel back those layers. We

[17:09] want to understand the why, whether it's

[17:11] through your writing, it's through a a

[17:14] recommendation.

[17:15] Uh but but hearing a little bit more

[17:17] about that experiential piece can can be

[17:19] incredibly important in our process.

[17:25] How about you this year?

[17:28] I'll I'll echo and and you know

[17:32] elaborate a little more but to to both

[17:34] John and Justin's points most of our

[17:36] students don't have research when they

[17:38] come in

[17:39] and that's just the reality.

[17:40] Like

[17:41] those those opportunities are

[17:43] privileged, you know, it's labs require

[17:46] resources

[17:48] connections whether it's in the social

[17:49] sciences or humanities.

[17:51] And research is about

[17:54] how you learn and how you explore and so

[17:57] there

[17:58] let's be

[18:00] let's set the base on we don't expect a

[18:01] high school student to have discovered

[18:03] new knowledge, right? And and you know,

[18:06] develop a new groundbreaking theory high

[18:08] school doesn't often even allow for for

[18:10] that space like for maybe an IB program

[18:12] and you're working on extended essay and

[18:13] you really gone in depth but

[18:16] um

[18:17] the communication skills and and really

[18:19] being able to push the envelope

[18:21] I think how research helps differentiate

[18:23] an applicant. I always simply define

[18:24] research as the discovery of new

[18:26] knowledge. You know, you're asking

[18:27] questions that someone

[18:29] hasn't been able to answer before

[18:30] haven't maybe even asked before and and

[18:32] you can't Google the answer. You know,

[18:33] it's not on Wikipedia. We get so many

[18:35] essays are like I went down this

[18:37] Wikipedia rabbit hole and it's like okay

[18:38] well that's

[18:40] you know, some people might call that

[18:41] research but that's really learning,

[18:42] right? You are learning you're absorbing

[18:44] these facts

[18:46] but you're not necessarily creating

[18:48] output or or discovering something that

[18:50] isn't known to our world yet. Whereas

[18:52] research is

[18:54] your ability to take that learning and

[18:56] and start asking questions and pushing

[18:58] the envelope beyond what people can even

[19:01] teach you. So

[19:02] uh

[19:04] whether that's through a project or just

[19:05] sort of your style of learning and

[19:07] engaging in the classroom, you know,

[19:08] there are different ways to exhibit

[19:09] these characteristics in a learning

[19:11] environment um, the high school level,

[19:13] even in the college level. And I think

[19:15] research is one of those ways, right, to

[19:17] demonstrate your curiosity and ability

[19:18] to explore. So,

[19:20] uh, going back to the question, you

[19:21] know, what is research? That's

[19:23] whether it's in a lab, whether it's in a

[19:25] library, uh, whether you're traveling

[19:26] for an archaeological dig, like you're

[19:29] trying to discover something people do

[19:31] not know and and haven't known, or solve

[19:33] a problem that that hasn't been solved

[19:34] before.

[19:37] So, um, so for those

[19:40] I'm just going to talk about the

[19:41] elephant in the room. There are a lot of

[19:43] people that say, well, like, in order

[19:46] for you to stand out in the process, you

[19:49] need to do something like that. Um, so

[19:53] that's one, which you kind of have

[19:55] already addressed a little bit, but two,

[19:58] if I do it, what like, how do I tell you

[20:02] other than like people are sending

[20:04] abstracts, people are sending links,

[20:06] people are sending whole papers, people

[20:08] are like, you know,

[20:10] are you reading those? Do you want

[20:12] those? Like,

[20:14] um, does that really help?

[20:18] Yeah, I I guess I'll kind of kick it off

[20:20] again, since we do have a process, and

[20:23] I've I talk about the process way too

[20:25] much, whatever whatever those questions

[20:27] are. So, for us, um, your research or

[20:30] your STEM portfolio does get read. So,

[20:32] one of the really unique things about

[20:34] Caltech is that faculty are also part of

[20:36] the admissions process. So, in order for

[20:38] any student to be admitted, they have to

[20:39] have a positive vote by a faculty

[20:41] member. So, what that means is,

[20:43] uh, we're in a big room during

[20:44] committee. It looks exactly like the

[20:46] movies. There's 20 of us, maybe 30 of

[20:48] us. We're fighting and screaming and

[20:49] kicking, shouting for our students to

[20:51] get in.

[20:52] Uh, and you know, even if like three of

[20:55] the admissions officers are like, yeah,

[20:56] we love this student, if a faculty says

[20:59] no, it's over. There's no There's

[21:01] nothing that we can do, because they are

[21:03] the expert, right, in the end of the

[21:04] day. So, if you're applying,

[21:07] uh, to major in physics, just note and

[21:09] you give us physics research, just note

[21:11] that a Nobel laureate in physics will be

[21:13] reading your work, right? So, I think

[21:14] that's one of the things you really have

[21:16] to think about is, okay, if I'm going to

[21:19] submit something that you think it's

[21:20] groundbreaking, just realize that the

[21:23] bar that's being set right now is a

[21:25] Caltech physics professor reading and

[21:28] deciding if what you're if your research

[21:30] is actually like really good or just,

[21:33] you know, hogwash, right? Like, I have

[21:34] other words I want to use, but that's

[21:36] essentially what's going to what's going

[21:37] to happen uh, to to your research. So, I

[21:40] really and I also want to help you

[21:42] understand that just because you submit

[21:44] more does not make you a better

[21:45] applicant because in the end of the day,

[21:47] a lot of us do holistic review and it's

[21:49] one part of your it's one part of your

[21:51] application, right? So, everything has

[21:53] to kind of connect the dots and help us

[21:55] tell a narrative about what you do and

[21:58] your passions. And for a school like

[22:00] ours where it's so like again STEM

[22:01] obsessed, the passion has to be there.

[22:04] There is nothing that drives the faculty

[22:05] crazier than someone saying they're

[22:08] obsessed with uh, with physics and all

[22:10] of a sudden they have marine science

[22:11] research. It's like, what and then and

[22:13] they've actually said in the committee

[22:14] room like, I don't get it. She's doing

[22:15] all this physics stuff, why did she

[22:17] spend her summer doing marine science

[22:19] research, right? Like, it's and I think

[22:21] that's because

[22:22] it's just kind of like keeping up with

[22:23] the Joneses, right? Like, you think

[22:24] that's something that you have to do, so

[22:26] then you go and get this Stony Brook

[22:28] Garcia or Simons program, which is

[22:30] great. Those those if I'm going to

[22:31] recommend a program, you know, that's

[22:33] it, right? And that's not because I

[22:34] like, you know, I'm from New York City

[22:36] and almost went to Stony Brook, but it's

[22:37] it's because, you know, those are

[22:38] actually quality research programs. Um,

[22:41] but they're very like niche, right? So,

[22:43] it's like don't do it just because

[22:44] you're going to

[22:46] um, have that expertise. So, uh, and

[22:49] then, you know, it also gives you a

[22:50] chance on what really makes it good is

[22:53] your passion. So, it goes back to we

[22:55] have this viva where, you know, you put

[22:57] you put your research in and it really

[22:59] asks you questions about your research.

[23:00] And I think I think that's one thing

[23:01] that um, I really recommend students to

[23:04] do if they are submitting research and

[23:05] it's actually kind of a requirement so

[23:06] it's not really just a recommendation.

[23:09] You know, it's then it becomes

[23:10] non-research. It becomes you know, at

[23:12] Stanford if you don't do it is that then

[23:14] you really it asks you technical

[23:16] questions and also just what how did you

[23:20] come about this? Why did you do it?

[23:22] Right? Like if you were to do things

[23:23] differently, what would So it really

[23:25] kind of helps the research professor

[23:28] really understand do you know your

[23:30] knowledge and also like the the passion

[23:32] that comes out and our faculty this past

[23:35] review cycle has really enjoyed it

[23:36] because

[23:37] it used to be research with one sided

[23:39] thing where the student provided their

[23:40] research paper, the faculty read it and

[23:42] decided whether it was good or not. But

[23:44] now the student is able to bring their

[23:46] voice into the fold. So

[23:49] just

[23:50] Yeah. Yeah.

[23:51] Yeah. Great.

[23:53] Um

[23:54] Yeah, again, Caltech is a very unique

[23:56] place and has faculty reading these. So

[23:59] in that case, if you are going to submit

[24:01] research, it should really

[24:03] you know,

[24:04] there is someone really who understands

[24:06] it reading it. But I think in most

[24:08] offices, you're not having faculty read.

[24:12] And so let's hear from the admissions

[24:14] officers who don't have the faculty

[24:16] reading.

[24:17] Are you reading any of it?

[24:20] So personally

[24:22] yeah, my background is in engineering.

[24:24] So I I'm always excited to read

[24:26] something but that's not for purposes of

[24:28] evaluating your application for

[24:29] admission.

[24:30] And you know, what at a Swarthmore, I

[24:32] love having the the different

[24:34] institutions here because it's really

[24:35] important to research your colleges and

[24:38] understand what their process is and

[24:40] what kind of place you want to go to.

[24:42] Um I think at the vast majority of

[24:44] places faculty are not going to be

[24:46] reading. And and frankly, you know, not

[24:47] just faculty, an expert in what you've

[24:49] done researching is rarely going to be

[24:51] reading your research. You know, and if

[24:52] you proceed all the way through grad

[24:54] school, you become one of five experts

[24:56] in the world on the on the topic that

[24:59] you've done research on, right? So, you

[25:00] really need to cultivate this ability to

[25:03] explain it to lay people who who aren't

[25:05] who may not understand anything about

[25:07] physics, right? You know, how do you

[25:08] even illustrate that with analogies? And

[25:10] so,

[25:10] the you know,

[25:12] there's the there's expertise, but

[25:13] there's also time. We we don't have time

[25:16] to to browse through 40-page research

[25:19] papers. You know, folks may glimpse at

[25:21] an abstract and you know, quotes from

[25:23] the committee room is like, "This

[25:24] student sounds really smart." You know,

[25:26] by virtue of the fact that I have no

[25:27] idea what they're talking about. But,

[25:30] um

[25:31] if we have no idea what we're you're

[25:32] talking about, that that doesn't really

[25:34] help us understand the impact um or the

[25:36] potential impact and importance of that

[25:38] work.

[25:39] And I think what, you know, the reason

[25:42] communication is so important to us, the

[25:44] ability to articulate your research,

[25:46] is it's just like any other

[25:48] extracurricular activity, whether it's

[25:49] research or something else.

[25:51] I'm interested in two things, you know,

[25:52] how has this impacted the people, the

[25:55] community, the world around you? You

[25:58] know, how have you shared this with

[26:00] other people? Not just I nerded out on

[26:02] Wikipedia and you know, derived some new

[26:05] equations or um explored some new

[26:07] literature for for my own enjoyment.

[26:10] But but how do you intend for this to

[26:12] impact and how do you bring others into

[26:14] the fold? You know, how do you how do

[26:15] you We're educational institutions and a

[26:18] big part of research is also mentoring

[26:19] and teaching future researchers, right?

[26:21] And so,

[26:22] you may not just be operating in a silo.

[26:24] You're going to be part of a team.

[26:25] You're going to be working with faculty

[26:26] and other students um as you come to

[26:28] engage in research on our campus as

[26:29] well. So,

[26:32] yeah, I'll stop there in terms of I'll

[26:35] pause there.

[26:38] A lot of similarities for Carnegie

[26:40] Mellon. You know, in in our office, uh

[26:42] it's being reviewed by an admission

[26:44] committee. That committee's made up of

[26:46] of folks that are are, you know, very

[26:48] intelligent, very highly educated. We're

[26:50] all bachelor's degree holders, uh but we

[26:53] are likely not content experts in your

[26:55] your field. Every once in a while you

[26:57] might get lucky and and your work

[26:59] happens onto the desk of

[27:01] someone who shares your background, but

[27:03] you should be prepared to present your

[27:04] research.

[27:06] Esther, I think you used the word

[27:07] laypeople, that's the word I use as

[27:09] well, to to a layperson that that is is

[27:12] highly educated but not sharing in in

[27:14] your specialty. So, we don't actually

[27:17] accept full research papers as a part of

[27:19] our our application process to review.

[27:22] If you send us a link,

[27:24] we're not clicking on it. We're we're

[27:25] not going in. So, we want to hear about

[27:27] your experience through activities list,

[27:30] through your essays, through your

[27:31] recommendations.

[27:32] And and it's very much being able to

[27:34] speak to that that experience side of it

[27:37] that is important in our process. Every

[27:40] once in a while we'll we'll see some

[27:42] information that that's really

[27:44] compelling that we want to understand a

[27:46] little bit further and we might go talk

[27:48] to one of our associate deans to chat

[27:50] with a faculty member. But if I took

[27:52] every project that I saw in computer

[27:53] science to to my friend Tom, I'm pretty

[27:56] sure that that Tom would put out a cease

[27:58] and desist letter on me

[28:00] to make sure I didn't show up at his

[28:01] office anymore. So, our our capacity to

[28:04] do that is limited. Our faculty don't

[28:06] have the bandwidth to to look at every

[28:08] every one of our applications.

[28:10] Yeah.

[28:11] Um got it. Great. Well, so you mentioned

[28:14] you know, put it on your activities list

[28:16] and

[28:17] our second little thing of the topic was

[28:19] resumes. So, let's pivot a little bit

[28:22] because we're kind of thinking about we

[28:25] would like to know

[28:27] if a student has done really cool things

[28:29] and great things in that effort to be

[28:32] passionate, to be learning um but they

[28:36] just don't know where to put it on the

[28:38] application and they feel like, "Oh, I

[28:40] already filled out my activities and I

[28:42] still have some things to say. So, can I

[28:44] give you my resume?"

[28:48] Thoughts on that?

[28:49] >> Yeah, I'll start and I'll say no.

[28:51] Resumes fall into that supplemental

[28:53] material category for us the same way

[28:55] that a research abstract does where

[28:57] where we're going to say we're we're not

[28:58] going to look at it. Uh so, assuming

[29:01] you're applying on the common

[29:03] application where where exclusive on the

[29:05] common app.

[29:06] The instructions on the activities list

[29:08] tell you to to think about the relative

[29:11] importance of your activities and to

[29:13] list them in descending order of their

[29:15] impact or their importance. So, my

[29:18] advice would be if you have filled that

[29:20] activities list out,

[29:22] whatever is remaining should be

[29:25] relatively low impact. Uh the the you

[29:28] need to do some prioritization there in

[29:30] how much you're you're presenting, what

[29:32] you're highlighting, what you're

[29:33] presenting.

[29:35] You certainly still got opportunities

[29:36] through your essay, through your

[29:37] recommendations to to work in some

[29:40] narratives that that dig deeper into

[29:42] those topics or maybe highlight the the

[29:44] things that that didn't make the list.

[29:47] But at the end of the day, I think the

[29:50] students that end up shining the

[29:52] brightest in the process are the ones

[29:53] that have had incredibly high quality

[29:55] experiences, not necessarily the ones

[29:58] that have had the highest quantity of

[30:00] experiences.

[30:03] Yeah. Um

[30:05] the

[30:06] we don't regularly review resumes when

[30:09] they're submitted. You know, they're

[30:10] there in the reader.

[30:12] And the times I've found the resumes to

[30:14] be most helpful are when the student has

[30:16] done a bad job filling out their

[30:18] activities list. Right? So,

[30:21] I

[30:21] and it's just oh, you know, they're not

[30:23] doing anything. It's like oh, wait, they

[30:25] submitted their resume and expected us

[30:26] to read that. And so, I mean, don't

[30:28] count on that happening. Um because you

[30:31] that's what the application is built to

[30:33] do. It's really it gives you so much

[30:35] space. And like Justin said,

[30:38] you should be deciding what's important.

[30:40] You know, if it matters

[30:43] if it doesn't matter enough for you to

[30:44] go on to your application, it's probably

[30:46] not significant enough to be sharing

[30:48] with the the committee, right? In in the

[30:49] admissions process.

[30:51] Um but there are so many opportunities

[30:52] frankly through the activities list,

[30:54] through um

[30:56] optional channels that we will look at.

[30:58] You know, there's interviews and and

[30:59] other conversations, recommendations,

[31:01] the essays

[31:02] for your passion to come through that I

[31:06] can't remember a single time where a

[31:08] resume has added to what's already a

[31:10] strong application.

[31:13] Yeah.

[31:15] Yeah, likewise, there is a

[31:17] nothing that drives me crazier and

[31:19] off-the-wall than seeing a student with

[31:21] a three-page to a six-page resume. It

[31:23] just it's it's nonsensical.

[31:27] I've had three careers

[31:29] and 20 years of work experience and I

[31:31] feel like I maybe just got to page two,

[31:33] you know? Like maybe. So, uh it drives

[31:36] it I I think you're don't expect that'll

[31:38] be read. Again, everything's on the

[31:40] activities list. Uh but I will say, take

[31:44] some advice as if you do plan on

[31:46] submitting it, that is uh and I get deep

[31:49] into your application, that is where I

[31:51] start to verify everything. So, your if

[31:53] you're going to give me a resume, that

[31:55] is fair game for me to make sure that

[31:57] what you said in your resume is what

[31:58] your recommender said about your

[31:59] recommendation, which is what you said

[32:01] you did in your activities, and what you

[32:02] said about research, and what you said

[32:04] about um something else. And that's

[32:07] usually where lies, you know, maybe or

[32:10] fabrications start to happen, right? So,

[32:12] the more information you give us,

[32:14] perhaps the more scrutiny you And that's

[32:17] just a fact, right? The more you give,

[32:18] the more um will be analyzed during the

[32:21] process when we are able to dig into

[32:23] your application a little bit more.

[32:27] So, then let's talk about the activities

[32:29] list a little bit in terms of, you know,

[32:31] how to maximize it. There is a question

[32:34] here of like so, sometimes because

[32:37] there's only 150 characters, there's

[32:39] some confusion on how to focus in those

[32:42] words, you know, like, am I supposed to

[32:44] be staying the professor that I worked

[32:47] with or or is it or should I just be

[32:49] saying the skills that I learned? Like,

[32:52] how would you any

[32:54] um

[32:55] any advice on how to use those 150

[32:57] characters well?

[33:01] Impact and growth.

[33:03] Right?

[33:04] Um and you know, not everything will

[33:07] have like a world-changing impact. I

[33:08] think very few things will be global in

[33:10] scale. So, you don't have to win the

[33:12] Pulitzer Prize, right? Like, but impact

[33:14] is like how did you affect, you know,

[33:16] how did your participation affect the

[33:18] group, affect the activity, you know,

[33:19] did you

[33:20] did you start a group? Did you need to

[33:22] fundraise, you know? Like, and then how

[33:24] did you grow, you know, how did you

[33:26] learn? And it it could be either or. It

[33:28] could be both of those things.

[33:30] Um but you know, in 150 words to really

[33:33] distill it, it's it's how are you

[33:34] growing and learning and contributing.

[33:36] So, that's my summary.

[33:41] I'm I'm going to be cautious about how I

[33:43] word this because I don't want the

[33:44] takeaway to be be the incorrect one, but

[33:46] when you only have 150 words,

[33:49] your language

[33:50] >> it's characters. Here it's characters,

[33:52] right? This is

[33:52] >> Right. I'm sorry, 150 characters.

[33:55] Goodness. Yeah, when you only have 150

[33:57] characters, you want to be direct. Uh

[34:00] this isn't the place to try to impress

[34:03] me with your vocabulary or the

[34:04] complexity of your grammatical

[34:06] structure. Like, get to the point. Uh

[34:09] so, some just a very quick listing of

[34:13] the the highest impact, highest growth

[34:16] moments, the characteristics exhibited

[34:19] are are the the best way to go. I still

[34:22] want good clean writing. We're still

[34:23] comparing that writing to your essays,

[34:26] trying to make sure that everything is

[34:27] consistent.

[34:29] But the way you're going to write in 150

[34:30] characters versus the way you're going

[34:32] to write in a 300-word short answer

[34:35] response versus the way you're going to

[34:36] write in a 650-word personal statement.

[34:40] It's different tasks, right? And it

[34:43] shouldn't be the exact same approach to

[34:46] an exercise of writing. And that's

[34:48] sometimes where I see students and they

[34:50] trip themselves up is they're trying to

[34:52] write with with such a degree of

[34:54] complexity in those 150 characters that

[34:58] they end up telling me nothing at at the

[35:00] end.

[35:01] Yeah.

[35:03] Thank you John. Yeah, I would say

[35:07] you know, treat it if I love that we're

[35:09] talking about resumes now.

[35:10] Treat it like a resume bullet point and

[35:12] I'm going to give you an acronym to

[35:13] remember our star. The star method is

[35:15] the way to go situation task action

[35:17] results. If you're able to put that into

[35:19] those four things, you can easily knock

[35:22] out 150 characters and show high impact

[35:25] and the value of your work. So,

[35:26] situation tell us what what's the tell

[35:29] us what the environment was, task what

[35:32] were you tasked to do, action one or two

[35:33] things that you did and results what was

[35:35] the outcome of that. And generally

[35:36] speaking, you can get 150 characters in.

[35:40] Right. Thank you for that advice.

[35:43] Um

[35:44] Awesome. Okay, so we're going to talk a

[35:46] little bit about

[35:48] it's already been mentioned a few times.

[35:51] Um but you're you are kind of looking

[35:53] for a thread. You're looking for a

[35:54] story. You're looking you know, the the

[35:56] physics marine science story. You're

[35:58] like if there's something that kind of

[36:00] doesn't fit in the puzzle.

[36:01] So, um

[36:03] I think students get really focused on

[36:06] like does this fit? Does this fit? Um

[36:09] how

[36:11] Yeah, any words of advice on how to like

[36:14] make your story cohesive or how to be

[36:16] reflective about that? And as because of

[36:19] majority of these people are juniors,

[36:21] they probably have done a fair amount in

[36:23] their high school already. So,

[36:26] um just any advice on how they should be

[36:28] thinking about this summer and how to

[36:31] put that story together.

[36:37] I think

[36:39] uh, your task is a lot easier if you

[36:42] have done things out of your own

[36:44] interest and curiosity.

[36:47] Um, because

[36:50] right, if you have upfront chosen things

[36:52] based on

[36:55] this grand ambition to to later on

[36:58] assemble them into a narrative that

[37:00] colleges will find compelling,

[37:02] that's

[37:03] the wrong reason to go about it to begin

[37:05] with, you know? And and so,

[37:08] um,

[37:10] carry that sense of of

[37:13] genuineness, being genuine, you know,

[37:16] through throughout the whole process in

[37:18] your time as a high school student in

[37:19] choosing activities and building a

[37:20] college application. Um, even if you do

[37:23] come to this realization of, you know, I

[37:25] was doing things because I thought I

[37:28] needed to build a resume and and 20

[37:30] things and then I realized at this

[37:31] point, oh, I didn't, you know? And and

[37:33] maybe this is why there's a turn or this

[37:34] is how

[37:35] I pursued something different in the

[37:37] summer or this is

[37:38] why I'm now applying to the colleges I'm

[37:40] applying to, but my activities, you

[37:42] know, student activities might look like

[37:43] this. Um,

[37:44] it it's just as important

[37:47] to also learn about what you aren't

[37:48] interested in through your activities,

[37:50] you know? And and it's okay to share

[37:52] that. Not everything you do has to be

[37:55] something you're the most excited about,

[37:57] right? And and

[37:59] half the half the students we see going

[38:01] through undergrad will change their

[38:02] major when they're here. And so, we also

[38:04] like to see that form of exploration and

[38:07] and growth uh, through your high school

[38:09] time. So,

[38:10] um,

[38:11] sit down and be honest with yourselves

[38:13] and

[38:15] don't try to make up reasons for why you

[38:17] did things that that weren't really

[38:19] there in the first place. What you've

[38:20] done is done, what you're you're doing

[38:23] is going to happen, right? But, um

[38:26] I think where you start to fail is if

[38:28] you try to build an artificial construct

[38:30] around all of this that isn't meant to

[38:32] be there.

[38:33] Yeah.

[38:36] And I would say, you know, put put your

[38:39] energy in in the college search into

[38:41] looking for campuses

[38:44] that are going to be a good fit for who

[38:45] you are. Sometimes, I think students get

[38:48] too caught up in trying to mold

[38:50] themselves

[38:52] into a good fit for a college or a

[38:55] campus instead of the other way around.

[38:57] And what I mean by that, you've got

[38:59] three great institutions here today. If

[39:01] you really interrogated our processes

[39:04] and you created a Venn diagram of what

[39:07] makes a great Caltech student, what

[39:08] makes a great Carnegie Mellon student,

[39:10] and what makes a great Swarthmore

[39:11] student, there's going to be a little

[39:13] bit of overlap, but we're distinct

[39:15] places. We're different communities.

[39:19] So, being genuine and thoughtful in this

[39:22] process, presenting yourself

[39:23] authentically, but making sure that that

[39:26] you're looking for campuses that are a

[39:27] good fit for you are a really, really

[39:29] important. You know, so John, you raised

[39:31] the example of that student that wants

[39:32] to be a physicist, but has done research

[39:34] completely unrelated to physics. That

[39:37] would land differently at CMU.

[39:39] Uh I don't think that that would concern

[39:41] our our committee, but we're a much

[39:43] larger community than Caltech, right?

[39:46] So, we maybe have the space in our

[39:49] freshman class to say, "Yeah, we we want

[39:50] some students that are interested in

[39:52] physics that they really been deep with

[39:55] physics."

[39:57] But, I bet if we pull in that student

[39:58] with this broad background of biology,

[40:01] maybe they're going to ask some

[40:01] different questions. Maybe that's going

[40:04] to make the research in that community

[40:05] land a little differently.

[40:08] But, the size of our community affords

[40:10] me the opportunity to make that decision

[40:12] in in different ways, right? So,

[40:15] don't get too caught up in trying to to

[40:18] mold yourself into the perfect

[40:20] applicant. Look for the the college

[40:22] that's the right fit. I know that was

[40:24] kind of spinning your question there a

[40:26] little bit, Gloria, but

[40:27] >> No, no, that's great. I mean, it is a

[40:29] lot of why I invite different types of

[40:33] institutions to be on a similar, I mean,

[40:35] to be on one topic panel because I think

[40:39] as we've learned in two say talks, the

[40:41] answer is always it depends.

[40:44] And but that's why we want you to do the

[40:46] research. We want you to hear a little

[40:47] bit from each of these schools and then

[40:50] go learn a little bit more about their

[40:51] institutions and their communities to

[40:53] see like, well, is this somewhere that I

[40:55] could see myself and would want to be

[40:57] at.

[40:58] Um I know that there are a lot of people

[41:00] who are looking to this summer as a way

[41:03] to

[41:04] um you know, boost

[41:07] boost their experiences.

[41:09] So, um

[41:11] um any recommendations on how to make

[41:13] the most um your junior summer?

[41:17] You know, quote unquote make the most.

[41:21] And I you guys have touched on some of

[41:23] this already of like, find the thing

[41:24] that you love to do. Like I think that

[41:26] is that is probably the biggest level of

[41:29] advice, but any other things to add?

[41:37] That 100%. I think find your passion,

[41:40] find something you're interested in.

[41:43] I'm also going to say to be be where

[41:45] your feet are. I mean, if if it's the

[41:47] summer before your junior year, you're

[41:49] probably 16, 17 years old. I mean, how

[41:52] many totally unscheduled summers are you

[41:55] going to have left in your life?

[41:58] Not many, right? So, if you want to do

[42:00] that that commitment with a summer camp

[42:03] as a counselor, that's going to be a few

[42:05] weeks or or spend a couple of weeks in a

[42:07] college campus or whatever it is, but

[42:11] then you also just want to spend a month

[42:13] in your hometown, spend some time with

[42:15] your friends, with family.

[42:17] You don't need to schedule every waking

[42:20] minute of of that summer. Uh take it

[42:22] from someone that's staring down the

[42:23] barrel of my 40th birthday. I would love

[42:27] to have a summer with no commitments,

[42:29] and I know I don't have one of those

[42:30] coming until I retire. So also be be

[42:33] where your feet are. Uh

[42:35] find the things you're passionate about.

[42:37] You should do something productive in

[42:38] your summer,

[42:40] but don't get so caught up in it that

[42:42] you you lose uh one of those last free

[42:46] free summers of your life.

[42:51] I I think it's also fine to just do

[42:53] something like a summer job, you know,

[42:54] like

[42:55] go go work at an ice cream shop. I

[42:57] really resonate with Justin's response.

[43:00] Like

[43:01] you know, most of the students we have

[43:03] aren't again

[43:05] paid research, you know, opportunities

[43:07] like like they require resources. You

[43:09] know, there's a lot of privilege

[43:10] involved as well, and and again, most

[43:13] students don't have it. And most

[43:14] students coming in have just spent their

[43:16] summer, you know, enjoying it a little

[43:18] bit. And and there's

[43:19] so much stress in the process already.

[43:21] We're trying to to really dial it back.

[43:23] So

[43:24] I'll I'll just second, you know, enjoy

[43:26] yourself. Um

[43:28] take some time to be thoughtful,

[43:30] explore, you know,

[43:32] if nerding out is how you have fun, go

[43:34] and nerd out. If

[43:36] being a lifeguard is is your jam, go do

[43:40] that. If just hanging out with your

[43:41] friends for the summer's fine, that's

[43:42] fine. We're not going to

[43:44] you know, see your application and be

[43:45] like

[43:46] why wasn't there eight weeks of research

[43:48] here, you know?

[43:52] Yeah, I echo all the same sentiments. Uh

[43:55] I just anytime I give I give the same

[43:57] advice. Just have fun, enjoy your

[43:59] summer. You know, I would say still be

[44:02] productive, but not be productive in

[44:03] terms of go get a research opportunity

[44:05] or go get a summer job. I mean, you

[44:07] should have one because, you know,

[44:08] money, you want money, money's good.

[44:11] But, I also think it's a good time for

[44:12] you to kind of slowly work on those

[44:15] college like research, right? Like

[44:17] really start Maybe you're just going to

[44:19] give yourself 1 hour a day to browse a

[44:22] website, see if an essay's update essay

[44:25] prompts updated, maybe browse another

[44:27] website. Like really kind of start

[44:28] taking that time to slowly piece

[44:30] together cuz and it's true, you really

[44:32] should relax the summer of junior

[44:34] because there's nothing going to be more

[44:35] stressful and hectic than like

[44:37] September, October

[44:38] of your senior year. It's going to be

[44:40] crazy. It's going If you're applying

[44:43] early action, that's going to happen,

[44:45] you know, shortly after getting back.

[44:47] You're going to need to get all your

[44:47] essays done. You're going to have to

[44:49] chase down recommenders. So, really

[44:51] start thinking about, okay, who do I

[44:53] want my recommenders recommenders to be?

[44:55] Let me reach out to them. What Did the

[44:58] essay prompts come out yet for this

[44:59] school and that school? Let me start

[45:01] thinking about that. Let me start

[45:02] thinking about my activities and really

[45:04] kind of work on those small things. And

[45:06] in that way, once the time comes for you

[45:08] to submit the application, you're pretty

[45:10] much 95% there.

[45:13] Yeah. Yeah.

[45:15] Great advice. Okay, so we have a little

[45:17] bit of time left and I just want to make

[45:18] sure we get to questions. So, if you

[45:20] haven't asked your question yet, now is

[45:21] the time

[45:22] to go ahead and ask your question.

[45:25] Um,

[45:25] we have, of course, because I think the

[45:27] topic because the topic was research, we

[45:29] have a lot of STEM people on this call.

[45:31] Um, and

[45:32] it is uh

[45:34] There was some question about like

[45:37] if you're interested in engineering,

[45:39] like do you need to have things in like

[45:43] in your experience that point to that?

[45:45] Or what if you just kind of know that

[45:48] you are interested in that field, but

[45:49] you haven't had opportunities like that?

[45:51] What How do you see that?

[45:56] Do you have to have access to

[45:58] practical hands-on stuff?

[46:00] Yeah, this will probably be another one

[46:01] of those it depends, right? Like every

[46:03] institution might look at it a bit

[46:04] differently. For me

[46:07] uh

[46:08] we're going to have, you know, 450

[46:10] or so engineers in our freshman class.

[46:12] And I'm going to want to group of

[46:14] students that are at tackling

[46:17] engineering from different levels of

[46:18] experience, uh different uh backgrounds,

[46:22] different interests because that's when

[46:24] the most interesting things are

[46:25] happening. So, uh we're going to look

[46:28] for some students that have that really

[46:30] pointy profile. They've done engineering

[46:32] work. They've been a part of the clubs.

[46:34] They've done research.

[46:36] Uh they know, I want to be a material

[46:39] science engineer.

[46:40] And then we're also going to take in

[46:42] some students that they've done a lot of

[46:44] STEM-y things. They know they want to be

[46:46] an engineer. They frankly don't yet know

[46:48] what material science engineering is. Uh

[46:51] but they have been the lead in every

[46:54] school musical in in their high school,

[46:56] right? When you get those people in a

[46:58] room together, interesting things are

[47:00] are going to happen. So, I'm I'm a big

[47:02] baseball fan and I always compare

[47:04] my job to being a general manager in

[47:06] this space, right? The best baseball

[47:08] teams have players with different

[47:09] talents and it's the way those talents

[47:11] complement each other. You need great

[47:13] starting pitchers. You need a a closer

[47:15] with an elite pitch. Uh you need uh

[47:18] speedy guys that will get on base and

[47:20] steal bases. You need power hitters that

[47:22] will drive them in. And unless you're a

[47:24] Dodgers fan, you're not going to find

[47:26] all of these player all these skills in

[47:28] one player. If you're a Dodgers fan,

[47:30] Shohei Ohtani is a unicorn. There's no

[47:32] one else like him. So, your job as a GM

[47:35] is to get all these different players.

[47:37] My job as an admission officer is to get

[47:39] students with different different

[47:40] backgrounds, different talents,

[47:41] different lenses.

[47:43] So, there's not one right or or wrong

[47:46] answer there in terms of do you have to

[47:48] have a deep bench of engineering

[47:50] experiences to be an engineer at at CMU?

[47:53] Um but again, I I acknowledge that

[47:55] answer might be different on on some

[47:57] other campuses.

[47:59] I I love this group because I think

[48:01] we're all very distinct in in terms of

[48:03] our approach, right? Um

[48:04] the

[48:06] the We're a liberal arts campus and we

[48:08] have, you know, our engineering is fully

[48:10] accredited. You're going to graduate

[48:11] from here as an engineer, but you don't

[48:13] apply even to a department or program.

[48:16] You're going to apply to Swarthmore. You

[48:18] could tell us you're an English

[48:20] interested person and then come to

[48:22] campus and take engineering, right? So

[48:24] There's There's really no way even for

[48:26] us to to necessarily restrict you or

[48:29] constrain your application

[48:31] um based on a certain major interest.

[48:34] Um

[48:35] that being said, don't say you're

[48:36] interested in English if you're really

[48:37] interested in engineering cuz then your

[48:39] app won't make sense, right? Like that

[48:41] going back to that genuine narrative. Um

[48:44] we we don't admit by by major in that

[48:46] way. So so don't try that.

[48:48] The the thing that we really value here

[48:51] and and um I think Justin alluded to

[48:53] this earlier in a way, but we really

[48:55] push at Swarthmore. We're looking for

[48:56] the engineers who actually want to do

[48:58] things outside of engineering.

[49:00] Um because cuz that's the nature of

[49:02] learning here at Swarthmore. It's

[49:03] interdepartmental. It's

[49:04] cross-disciplinary.

[49:06] Um we want engineers who will understand

[49:08] the humanistic side of engineering, you

[49:10] know, who are going to be able to

[49:12] be those great communicators as well as

[49:13] understanding the technical side. So

[49:16] um the We do find the term pointy, you

[49:19] know, that that student that's really

[49:21] single-mindedly focused on something.

[49:23] They do exist at Swarthmore, um but

[49:25] they're they're not as common and and

[49:27] there are spaces for those students, but

[49:29] we really lean into and almost get

[49:31] excited by the engineer who's going to

[49:33] do dance or uh you know, the comp lit

[49:36] major who wants to explore a little bit

[49:38] of engineering, you know, so So that

[49:40] interdisciplinary interest is is

[49:42] something we are looking for in our

[49:43] process.

[49:49] Yeah, so you know, we we take a

[49:50] different approach at Caltech. We are

[49:53] definitely like way like very

[49:55] theoretical in the way we think about

[49:57] all about sciences, right? It goes back

[49:59] to our core calculus and physics being

[50:02] seen pretty much throughout. So, our

[50:04] mechanical engineering is going to be

[50:05] very different. I always say you can do

[50:06] ME at Caltech and you can do ME at UCLA.

[50:10] You're likely going to have very good

[50:12] education. You're going to have probably

[50:13] very similar outcomes, but why do you

[50:15] want to put yourself through this

[50:17] environment where things are a little

[50:19] bit more theoretical in that sense. I

[50:21] always say, you know, for us we're the

[50:23] person who we're looking for a person

[50:25] who wants to like invent the tire, not

[50:28] necessarily think, "Okay, we're going to

[50:30] put the four tires and turn into a car,

[50:31] right?" Like that's that that there is

[50:33] many other schools that are great for

[50:35] that, but you know, we're really

[50:37] in that in that kind of space. Like we

[50:40] want to send people to space and you

[50:42] know, think of like new how to live in

[50:44] Mars, right? So, like that's kind of

[50:46] where we look at even when we look at it

[50:48] from a mechanical engineering

[50:49] standpoint.

[50:51] Yeah, and that's a good I mean, I love

[50:53] that it's the three of you. Just so so

[50:55] different. So, like yes, there on the

[50:57] Venn diagram probably there are a few

[51:00] people that would fit all of three, but

[51:02] mostly not.

[51:04] Um

[51:04] and uh but there was a question here,

[51:07] you know, about like um

[51:09] uh if I wanted to do a startup, you

[51:11] know, which of you three

[51:13] could could that be a better place to

[51:15] be? And I I John, I think of you because

[51:18] I remember just thinking about like is

[51:20] this person wanting to do academia or is

[51:22] this person wanting to be in industry

[51:24] was sort of a question in the room,

[51:26] right? So, um if each of you could kind

[51:29] of weigh in like if I wanted to do a

[51:30] startup, would would this

[51:32] would this be a good place for me and

[51:34] why?

[51:36] Yeah, so I we started a we just had our

[51:39] mid-student event last 2 weeks ago and

[51:41] we've we have I was the lead for the

[51:43] startup session and it was the first

[51:45] time ever we did one

[51:46] uh it was because a lot of students were

[51:48] wondering if Caltech is a great place

[51:50] for a startup. And the answer is yes,

[51:52] shockingly enough, I this is a fun stat

[51:54] that I got from that office uh of tech

[51:57] transfer and corporate partnerships is

[51:59] that we actually have the most startups

[52:00] per capita. So, we're a small school,

[52:02] but we actually have a lot of people who

[52:04] go into it relative to our size. Now, I

[52:07] do want to put a caveat on what our

[52:09] startup looks like though. Our startup

[52:11] is driven through research and innov-

[52:14] innovation. That's how we look at

[52:16] startups. So, if you're coming in and

[52:17] you're like, "I want to be a software

[52:19] developer." or "I want to create the

[52:21] next like, you know, dating app." That's

[52:23] not you know, that's not where we are,

[52:25] right? Like, we're looking at figuring

[52:28] out how to cure cancer, you know, and

[52:30] like those type of startups. Like, using

[52:31] using research to really drive that. Uh

[52:34] and that's that's what our startup is

[52:36] like. And so, if you're just looking to

[52:37] found a company, you know, for the you

[52:39] know, just out there which is everyday

[52:41] use, it's probably you know, maybe, but

[52:44] it's it might might not be the best fit

[52:46] for you. Um but, startup culture it does

[52:48] exist on campus.

[52:53] Yeah, we have an entrepreneurship center

[52:55] called the Swartz Center here at CMU.

[52:57] It's co-located with our Tepper School

[52:59] of Business, but it it serves students,

[53:01] faculty, and staff from all of our

[53:03] programs. And and I think that's one of

[53:05] the the places where our our

[53:07] intersection of technical expertise,

[53:09] design thinking, and and business can

[53:12] can set up our our students quite well.

[53:14] So, uh there are are

[53:17] hundreds of companies in the city of

[53:18] Pittsburgh that that have spun off from

[53:20] ideas at at Carnegie Mellon. Probably

[53:22] the most prominent of them is Duolingo,

[53:24] the language learning app, but there are

[53:27] are plenty of other examples you'll

[53:29] you'll find in Pittsburgh. So, we have

[53:31] an entrepreneur in residence in the

[53:32] Swartz Center. We offer a a full uh

[53:36] curriculum as a minor in

[53:37] entrepreneurship.

[53:39] Uh I think it's it's a pretty pretty

[53:41] good culture.

[53:42] Very generous IP uh rights in in terms

[53:46] of students maintaining their

[53:47] intellectual property in in the

[53:50] overwhelming majority of cases. Uh

[53:53] the I'd say the biggest thing to be

[53:54] realistic about is you really have to

[53:57] have a developed idea to get to the

[54:00] point that like you're getting financial

[54:02] support. You're actually taking an idea

[54:04] to

[54:05] uh to market. It's usually a process

[54:08] that takes years. And I think sometimes

[54:10] I talk to students that think it's going

[54:12] to be a process that'll take weeks or

[54:13] months.

[54:15] It's going to be a much longer runway

[54:17] than than that to to really get a

[54:19] startup off of the ground.

[54:24] Um and Swarthmore, it's it's an

[54:27] interesting dynamic at Swarthmore. I'm

[54:28] not going to say it's a bad place for

[54:30] entrepreneurship. Certainly folks can

[54:32] We just had Swat Tank a couple weeks

[54:34] ago. Sort of the the analog to Shark

[54:37] Tank where students presented their

[54:38] startup proposals and there is actual

[54:40] funding and awards to to go um to those

[54:43] students with the the best ideas.

[54:46] Um

[54:47] but there's a lot of sort of emphasis on

[54:49] the the academia side of of things here.

[54:51] So, students are going to graduate from

[54:53] here and get jobs and then go into all

[54:54] sorts of industry and go to grad school.

[54:57] Um but but I think the you know, the

[55:01] same kind of at other institutions, you

[55:03] know, you you've already just heard

[55:04] about like folks to focus on IP and you

[55:08] know, managing patents and and all that.

[55:10] Like

[55:12] those steps aren't necessarily as robust

[55:14] I think at at Swarthmore as they may be

[55:16] at other places. And that's not to say

[55:19] folks haven't started things up while

[55:21] they're here, you know. So,

[55:23] um it's it's a very well-resourced

[55:24] campus.

[55:26] I think it's the kind of student we we

[55:28] attract, right? On on whether they want

[55:30] to tap those resources or not.

[55:34] Amazing. Well, there's so many other

[55:36] questions and so I

[55:39] I want to make sure that if you heard

[55:41] something cool about each of these

[55:42] institutions that you're like, "Ooh, I

[55:45] that school might be the one for me or I

[55:48] would like to learn more."

[55:50] I want to put their contact information

[55:51] up. They have plenty of virtual

[55:53] sessions, I'm sure as well, where you

[55:56] can ask very very niche questions as

[55:58] well.

[56:00] But, just here's the information if you

[56:02] want it.

[56:04] We will have this recording on our

[56:08] website. So, if you missed you came in

[56:10] late and you missed some things, you

[56:12] feel free to listen there.

[56:14] I do want to ask one more question just

[56:15] because it came up several times and I

[56:18] feel like you all addressed it, but

[56:20] still it came up so many times on the

[56:22] multiple channels that I I just feel

[56:24] like I have to ask it again.

[56:26] Pay-to-play research is the People are

[56:28] actually using that term.

[56:31] Do you look at it

[56:33] with disdain or do you look at it with

[56:37] this is helpful information?

[56:41] So, our Dean of Admissions has been very

[56:44] open about wanting to burn down the

[56:46] pay-to-play apparatus. So, research

[56:49] apparatus.

[56:50] So, although we we don't look at it with

[56:53] disdain, I will say there are times when

[56:56] we see it and we're like,

[56:58] "Uh." But, you know, I'm going to say

[56:59] the caveat to this is that if you have

[57:02] the resources and this is something you

[57:04] want to pursue and this pay-to-play

[57:08] actually

[57:10] fits with your

[57:12] profile, then yes, right? Like if if

[57:14] you're like, "Okay, I was only able to

[57:16] get this. I'm really interested in this

[57:18] one aspect and this pay-to-play is this

[57:21] one aspect that I'm doing and it's

[57:23] really going to help me intellectually.

[57:25] It's going to help me in terms of really

[57:27] figuring things out."

[57:29] Then yeah, that that's a good thing

[57:30] because then that becomes that that's a

[57:32] positive narrative. But if all we see

[57:35] are just pay-to-play

[57:37] research in your profile and it has

[57:39] nothing to do with the rest of your

[57:41] story, then to be quite frank, it was a

[57:43] waste of money on your part, you know.

[57:47] Yeah, I'll I'll echo that. It's it's not

[57:49] a black and white situation.

[57:52] Uh there are a number of organizations

[57:54] out there that yeah, they'll they'll

[57:55] charge a a a fee

[57:58] uh from students that can afford it and

[58:00] they use those fees to subsidize the

[58:02] experience for students that have need.

[58:04] I mean, it's the same way we use our

[58:06] tuition dollars. It's the same way

[58:09] uh a lot of companies operate. Uh so, we

[58:11] don't want to take a black and white, if

[58:13] it's paid research, it doesn't count uh

[58:16] approach to this. But at the same time,

[58:18] by looking for the underlying

[58:20] characteristics,

[58:22] if you are paying to get your name on a

[58:24] paper that you did not significantly

[58:27] participate in the process of,

[58:30] you're not going to be able to

[58:31] demonstrate any of the characteristics

[58:33] we value.

[58:34] It is a frequent occurrence that we see

[58:37] applications that in the additional info

[58:39] section,

[58:40] they list half dozen publications.

[58:44] There's no other indication of research

[58:46] experience anywhere else in that

[58:47] application. I can tell you that

[58:49] additional info section might as well

[58:51] have been left blank at that point. It

[58:53] does not help us.

[58:55] Uh but if it's a a

[58:57] uh a program that it charged a fee but

[58:59] you're getting a high-quality experience

[59:02] and you can speak to that experience in

[59:04] your essays.

[59:06] Uh that that's not a a bad thing

[59:08] necessarily, but focus on experience. If

[59:12] you are planning on paying for a

[59:13] research uh opportunity, make sure that

[59:16] it's a high-quality one.

[59:21] Hey, it exists uh as you know, both

[59:24] Justin and John said like

[59:25] it's we're not going to penalize

[59:27] students who have paid to do research

[59:29] for sure, but it's about how you've

[59:31] engaged with it. We're not going to

[59:32] penalize students for not doing a paid

[59:34] to play experience, and I think that's

[59:35] the real question around equity, right?

[59:37] And privilege that comes up with paid to

[59:39] play opportunities

[59:40] is that you're not disadvantaged, and

[59:43] and so we're not driving students to

[59:46] fork up these these resources and and

[59:48] money to participate in a program that

[59:50] will make their college outlook better.

[59:52] Um so, you know, as you go through these

[59:54] as you enter college, whether it's

[59:56] a paid to play scheme, whether it's AI,

[59:58] you know, if you're not

[01:00:00] if you're being disingenuous about

[01:00:02] engaging in the learning process or

[01:00:04] whatever experience it is, it's going to

[01:00:06] come through, or rather it's not going

[01:00:08] to come through because you're not going

[01:00:09] to be able to talk about it in a really

[01:00:10] meaningful and substantive way. So,

[01:00:14] um

[01:00:15] there's all sorts of shortcuts you can

[01:00:17] take in life. Um if you're going to pay

[01:00:20] for something, you know, make the most

[01:00:22] of it um so that it'll actually add

[01:00:25] value to to yourself, right? Because

[01:00:28] ultimately

[01:00:29] you're the one who cares most about

[01:00:31] yourself and your outcomes. Um we're

[01:00:32] going to make assessments and things,

[01:00:34] but um

[01:00:35] if you're cheating, you're cheating

[01:00:36] yourself, and you're the only one who

[01:00:37] knows that.

[01:00:40] Well, thank you so much um all three of

[01:00:42] you. This has been really great, and we

[01:00:44] could talk for hours about this topic

[01:00:45] and multiple there are a lot of

[01:00:47] questions about a whole lot of other

[01:00:49] things. So,

[01:00:51] um keep tuning in to Tuesday talks

[01:00:53] because I'm keeping track of these

[01:00:55] questions so that we can kind of fold

[01:00:56] them into future talks. We're taking

[01:00:58] another um couple just a week of break,

[01:01:01] but then we'll be back for another

[01:01:02] holistic review session, which a lot of

[01:01:04] these questions that I'm seeing will

[01:01:07] touch on, and you'll get another look

[01:01:09] from a whole another group of schools.

[01:01:12] Um but I think the takeaway here is like

[01:01:15] you got to like take the you know, do

[01:01:19] the work of just kind of understanding

[01:01:20] who you are as a person and not worry so

[01:01:23] much about what other people think of

[01:01:25] you as a person because you'll see even

[01:01:28] in this if you use the same common app

[01:01:29] for these three schools it would have a

[01:01:31] very different effect

[01:01:33] on the three institutions. So really

[01:01:35] think about who you are as opposed to

[01:01:37] what you think other people want you to

[01:01:39] be. So enjoy the rest of your day your

[01:01:42] evening Justin and Stuart John thank you

[01:01:45] so much for taking time to spend with us

[01:01:48] and we'll see you next time. Bye.

[01:01:51] Yeah.