# The War Inside Women: How Hormones Influence Psychology - Dr Sarah Hill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83YP1tpOWvk
Translation: zh-CN

[00:00] two books on the vagina.
  两本关于阴道的书。

[00:02] Congratulations.
  恭喜。

[00:04] I think it's a little bit more complex than that.
  我认为这比那要复杂一点。

[00:05] I think it's a little more complex than that, but thank you.
  我认为这比那要复杂一点，但谢谢你。

[00:09] Why this one?
  为什么是这个？

[00:10] Well, you know, actually, you know, it it was the biologist in me that kind of led me to this one.
  嗯，你知道，实际上，你知道，是我内心的生物学家引导我选择了这个。

[00:15] Um, so the first book was really more about my I ended up in a rabbit hole because of my personal experiences with the pill.
  嗯，所以第一本书更多的是关于我的，我因为个人服用避孕药的经历而陷入了一个兔子洞。

[00:21] And this one I ended up in a rabbit hole because I couldn't understand why women feel so terrible during the last two weeks of their cycle.
  而这本书我陷入了一个兔子洞，因为我无法理解为什么女性在月经周期的最后两周会感觉如此糟糕。

[00:30] Um, you know, and from an evolutionary perspective, like it doesn't make a lot of sense for women like to all have a disorder, right?
  嗯，你知道，从进化的角度来看，女性 all 患有某种疾病似乎说不通，对吧？

[00:37] It just doesn't make any sense because generally if there's some sort of a trait and it's causing problems, it'll get selected out of the population.
  这根本说不通，因为通常如果存在某种特征并且它引起了问题，它就会在种群中被淘汰。

[00:44] And there's been all this really wonderful work that's been done in our field looking at, you know, the impact of estrogen and how when estrogen is high and rising across the cycle that it does all these really amazing functional things within the human, you know, within the within women's brains and
  而且在我们的领域里，已经做了很多非常出色的工作，研究雌激素的影响，以及当雌激素在整个周期中升高时，它会在人体内，你知道，在女性大脑内发挥所有这些非常惊人的功能性作用，

[01:02] then with their behavior and everything else.
  然后是他们的行为和所有其他事情。

[01:06] But like there's nothing like that about what goes on in the second half of the cycle.
  但就像在周期的后半段发生的事情中没有类似之处一样。

[01:09] Instead, it just seems like women feel terrible.
  相反，这似乎只是让女性感觉糟糕。

[01:11] And so I was trying to understand why that is.
  所以我想了解为什么会这样。

[01:14] So like what is the deep evolutionary wisdom behind self-loathing you know that that tends to go on during the second half of the cycle and you know so like why does it happen and and is it supposed to and is there some way that we can all feel better.
  那么，你知道的，在周期的后半段，这种自我憎恨背后有什么深刻的进化智慧呢？你知道，它为什么会发生，它应该发生吗？有没有什么方法能让我们都感觉好点呢？

[01:29] So it was really sort of an evolutionary puzzle for me that I wanted to solve.
  所以对我来说，这真是一个我想解决的进化之谜。

[01:33] like crazy to think that that's for some maybe even most women 50% of their life.
  疯狂地认为，这对于一些，甚至可能是大多数女性来说，占她们生命的50%。

[01:39] Yeah, it is.
  是的，确实如此。

[01:39] It's like 50% of your life.
  这就像你生命中的50%。

[01:41] And it seems kind of crazy that, you know, that we would be designed in a way that we're supposed to be intentionally feeling bad.
  而且，你知道的，我们被设计成这样，故意让我们感觉糟糕，这似乎有点疯狂。

[01:48] And so I thought there had to be something else going on, right?
  所以我想，一定还有别的原因，对吧？

[01:49] That it probably didn't make sense that we're just supposed to feel terrible.
  我们只是 supposed to 感觉糟糕，这可能说不通。

[01:54] What actually happens in the brain across the month?
  整个月里大脑里到底发生了什么？

[01:58] Well, so to introduce you to the cycle, we just have to understand that, you
  嗯，所以要向你介绍这个周期，我们只需要理解，你

[02:03] Know, the whole purpose of having a cycle in the first place is reproduction.
  知道，首先要有一个周期，其目的就是繁殖。

[02:08] And for a male to reproduce, all you have to do is one thing, right?
  而男性要繁殖，你只需要做一件事，对吧？

[02:10] And that one thing is have sex.
  而这件事就是发生性行为。

[02:12] Uh, and for a female, it's a little bit more complicated that than that because we're mammals.
  呃，而对女性来说，这要复杂得多，因为我们是哺乳动物。

[02:16] And that means that we need to do two things in order to successfully reproduce, right?
  这意味着我们需要做两件事才能成功繁殖，对吧？

[02:20] One is have sex, and that means doing things like attracting partners, being able to tell the difference between high quality and low quality partners, wanting to have sex, looking sexy, you know, smelling sexy, finding men sexy, etc., etc., etc.
  一是发生性行为，这意味着要做诸如吸引伴侣、能够区分高质量和低质量的伴侣、想要发生性行为、看起来性感、闻起来性感、觉得男人性感等等。

[02:35] And there's a whole bunch of research that finds that in fact that that's true, right?
  有大量的研究发现，事实上确实如此，对吧？

[02:38] And that all of those things tend to um correlate to times in the cycle when estrogen is high and rising, an egg is about to be released, and sex can lead to conception, right?
  而所有这些事情往往与周期中雌激素高且正在上升、卵子即将排出、性行为可能导致怀孕的时间相关，对吧？

[02:49] So that's job one for reproduction if you're a human female.
  所以，如果你是人类女性，这就是繁殖的第一项任务。

[02:51] Job two is implantation and pregnancy, right?
  第二项任务是着床和怀孕，对吧？

[02:54] And so this is where a female body has to allow this, you know, foreign genetic material, you know, half foreign genetic material on this this embryo implant um
  所以，这就是女性身体必须允许的，你知道，外来遗传物质，你知道，一半外来遗传物质在这个胚胎着床上嗯

[03:06] And then of course um be able to carry it to term for 9 months.
  然后当然，嗯，能够将其维持9个月。

[03:10] And this is the set of activities that's coordinated by our other sex hormone progesterone.
  而这一系列活动是由我们的另一种性激素孕激素协调的。

[03:15] And this is the sex hormone nobody talks about, right?
  而这是没人谈论的性激素，对吧？

[03:17] It's like we think like estrogen and then with guys we think testosterone.
  就像我们想到雌激素，然后男性想到睾酮。

[03:22] And there's really not a whole lot of talk about progesterone.
  而关于孕激素的讨论真的不多。

[03:24] And so I was kind of curious about like what actually goes on during the point in the cycle when progesterone is the dominant hormone, right?
  所以我有点好奇，在孕激素占主导地位的周期中到底发生了什么，对吧？

[03:33] Are these things actually trying to guide our our brain and behavior in a way that will help to facilitate pregnancy, right?
  这些事情实际上是在试图以一种有助于怀孕的方式来引导我们的大脑和行为吗，对吧？

[03:40] Because we find that you know human like women are become very much oriented toward men and towards sex um in the first half of the cycle when estrogen is high and rising.
  因为我们发现，你知道，像人类女性在周期前半段雌激素高且上升时，会非常倾向于男性和性，嗯。

[03:50] And so I was really trying to figure out like is there some method to our madness right during the second half of the cycle um when progesterone is dominant and might it be um creating shifts in the way that we feel and experience the world that might be functional and might they feel a
  所以我想弄清楚，在我们疯狂的第二周期，嗯，当孕激素占主导地位时，是不是有什么方法，它是否会创造我们感受和体验世界的方式的转变，这些转变可能是有功能的，而且它们可能感觉有点

[04:06] little bit dysfunctional just simply because we don't really give voice to them.
  有点功能失调，仅仅是因为我们没有真正地给她们发声。

[04:09] And by giving voice to them I don't mean that we all need to sit around and talk about how we feel during the second half of the cycle.
  而通过给她们发声，我并不是说我们都需要坐在一起谈论在周期的后半段我们的感受。

[04:16] But instead it's this idea that you know the way that women have been handled by science and by medicine is that we're just like small less hairy versions of men.
  但相反，这个想法是，你知道，科学和医学对待女性的方式就是我们只是男性体毛较少的小号版本。

[04:25] And so nobody's really given too much paid too much attention to the fact that our hormones cycle and that what our bodies need and and the way that we experience the world and even the way that we experience symptoms of chronic diseases or chronic conditions like ADHD and um and things like diabetes and autoimmune disease.
  因此，没有人真正给予太多关注，没有太关注我们的荷尔蒙会周期性变化，以及我们的身体需要什么，以及我们体验世界的方式，甚至我们体验像多动症、糖尿病和自身免疫性疾病等慢性疾病或慢性病症状的方式。

[04:44] And that all of this might actually shift across the cycle with our shifting hormones.
  而所有这些都可能随着我们变化的荷尔蒙在周期中发生变化。

[04:48] Um, and as it turns out, and as I talk a lot about in the new book, The Period Brain, is these things do change across the cycle, right?
  嗯，事实证明，正如我在新书《经期大脑》中经常谈到的，这些事情确实会随着周期的变化而变化，对吧？

[04:56] And it turns out that women are a somewhat different version of themselves during the last two weeks of the cycle than they are during the first two weeks of the cycle.
  事实证明，女性在周期的最后两周与在周期的前两周相比，是某种程度上不同的版本。

[05:04] And that a lot of the misery that we experience is the result
  而我们经历的许多痛苦是结果

[05:08] of the fact that we've totally ignored that, right?
  我们完全忽略了这一点，对吧？

[05:11] It's just like nobody wants to acknowledge that biological sex matters when it does.
  就好像没有人想承认生物性别确实很重要一样。

[05:16] And the results of this is that women have been absolutely mishandled by science and by medicine.
  其结果是，女性在科学和医学方面受到了绝对的错误对待。

[05:21] And one of the results of that is PMS.
  其中一个结果就是经前综合征。

[05:24] Right. Yes. A damning indictment of the medical industry and modern culture as well.
  没错。是的。这是对医疗行业和现代文化的一个严厉的控诉。

[05:28] All in all in one go there.
  总而言之，一次性说完了。

[05:30] So categorize for me the these multiple phases across the month.
  那么，请为我分类一下这个月里的多个阶段。

[05:33] What's it what's it like to be the female brain going through this?
  女性大脑经历这一切是什么样的？

[05:36] What's happening inside of the female brain?
  女性大脑里面发生了什么？

[05:39] Yeah. Well, so during the first half of the cycle, which you know, starts on day one, which is the day that you get your period, and at that point, hormones are pretty low, and you know, women are generally feeling a little bit um rung out because they just got through this big hormonal shift in the ludal phase.
  是的。嗯，所以在周期的前半部分，你知道，从第一天开始，也就是你来月经的那一天，那时，荷尔蒙水平相当低，而且你知道，女性通常会感到有点筋疲力尽，因为她们刚刚经历完黄体期的这个大的荷尔蒙转变。

[05:54] And during the first couple of days of the cycle, um women tend to be relatively tired.
  而在周期的最初几天，嗯，女性往往会相对疲倦。

[05:58] They're bleeding, they don't feel their best.
  她们在流血，她们感觉不是最好的状态。

[06:01] Um but usually after a couple of days um est because estrogen starts to rise um egg follicles are being stimulated and as they get stimulated estrogen gets released and it
  嗯，但通常几天后，嗯，雌激素开始上升，嗯，卵泡受到刺激，随着它们受到刺激，雌激素被释放出来，然后它

[06:10] Makes women feel amazing, right?
  让女性感觉很棒，对吧？

[06:12] They generally have more energy.
  她们通常精力更充沛。

[06:13] They have higher sexual desire.
  她们性欲更高。

[06:13] They have more sex.
  她们性生活更多。

[06:16] They're more drawn to men.
  她们更被男性吸引。

[06:20] Um, you know, there's just a whole lot of fun things that go on during that point in the cycle.
  嗯，你知道，在周期的那个阶段会发生很多有趣的事情。

[06:23] And it's just orienting women to do the thing that their brains and bodies need to do in order to reproduce.
  它只是引导女性去做她们的大脑和身体为了繁殖需要做的事情。

[06:27] Um, at that point, and that is have sex, right?
  嗯，在那个时候，那就是发生性行为，对吧？

[06:31] Because that's going to get, um, an egg in proximity with some sperm.
  因为这将使卵子靠近精子。

[06:33] And then, voila, you know, magic can happen.
  然后，瞧，你知道，奇迹就会发生。

[06:38] Um, after ovulation occurs, and that usually happens about two weeks in.
  嗯，排卵发生后，这通常发生在两周左右。

[06:41] So right around day 14 is when we see ovulation happen.
  所以大约在第14天，我们看到排卵发生。

[06:47] Um, that empty egg follicle actually becomes a temporary endocrine structure.
  嗯，那个空的卵泡实际上变成了一个临时的内分泌结构。

[06:49] And it's called the corpus luteum.
  它被称为黄体。

[06:51] And it releases women's other sex hormone, progesterone.
  它释放女性的另一种性激素，孕激素。

[06:56] And progesterone, like the experience of being in the state of this hormone is one where we tend to be more emotionally sensitive.
  而孕激素，就像处于这种激素状态下的体验一样，是我们往往会变得更加情绪敏感的。

[07:04] So it actually changes the connections with the amygdala in the brain, which is our fear
  所以它实际上改变了大脑中杏仁核的连接，而杏仁核是我们恐惧的

[07:10] center and it makes it more interconnected with a greater variety of areas of our brain and it makes it more sensitive to threat.
  中心，它使我们的大脑与更多样化的区域相互连接，并使其对威胁更加敏感。

[07:17] And so what we find um in research is that during uh the ludal phase of the cycle, so again these last two weeks of the cycle that it actually lowers the threshold that women's brains need to consider something a threat.
  因此，我们在研究中发现，在排卵周期的黄体期，也就是周期的最后两周，它实际上降低了女性大脑需要将某事视为威胁的阈值。

[07:30] You know, sort of like a smoke detector, right?
  你知道，有点像烟雾探测器，对吧？

[07:32] Like you can have a really sensitive smoke detector where every time that you so much as like make a pizza, it goes off and goes crazy.
  就像你可以有一个非常灵敏的烟雾探测器，每次你像做披萨一样的时候，它就会响起并失控。

[07:39] Or you can have one that's really insensitive, right?
  或者你可以有一个非常不灵敏的，对吧？

[07:41] Where your whole house would have to be on fire before it goes off.
  在那里，你的整个房子都得着火了它才会响起。

[07:44] And what the ludal phase does is it kind of makes you have a more finely tuned smoke detector.
  而黄体期所做的是，它会让你拥有一个更精细调整的烟雾探测器。

[07:48] And again, this is a period in the cycle when women are incredibly vulnerable, right?
  再说一遍，这是周期中女性极其脆弱的一个时期，对吧？

[07:53] Um progesterone is the the hormone of pregnancy, right?
  孕酮是孕激素，对吧？

[07:57] And this is true whether or not we ever want to get pregnant or whether our sex life would even allow us to get pregnant at a given point in our lives, right?
  无论我们是否想怀孕，或者我们的性生活是否允许我们在生命中的某个特定时刻怀孕，这都是真的，对吧？

[08:04] But our body is preparing for that.
  但我们的身体正在为此做准备。

[08:06] And part of that is that it does lower the threshold on
  其中一部分是它确实降低了阈值

[08:10] What is considered threatening, right?
  什么被认为是威胁，对吧？

[08:12] So women do become sort of more socially astute to signs of potential threat.
  所以女性在识别潜在威胁的迹象方面确实变得更加社会化和敏锐。

[08:18] Um you also tend to be sleepier and less motivated to go out and do things.
  嗯，你也倾向于更困倦，并且不太有动力出去做事。

[08:23] And again this is part of the fact that um progesterone is ushering in this you know state that is optimized for pregnancy.
  再说一次，这也是因为孕酮正在带来一种你知道的、为怀孕优化的状态。

[08:30] And this is a time that's really vulnerable for women.
  而这是一个对女性来说非常脆弱的时期。

[08:34] And especially you know throughout most of our evolutionary history we were very much dependent on our male partners for provisioning.
  尤其你知道，在我们的大部分进化史中，我们非常依赖我们的男性伴侣来提供生活所需。

[08:39] you know, if we were living out in the wilderness, um, and we were being chased by a, you know, a mountain lion, it'd be more difficult to get away.
  你知道，如果我们生活在荒野中，嗯，并且被一只你知道的，一只美洲狮追赶，逃脱会更困难。

[08:48] And so, we tend to be more, um, sort of oriented toward being home bodies.
  所以，我们往往更倾向于，嗯，更倾向于成为居家型的人。

[08:54] So, you actually find that women's, um, motivation to like do outward- facing approach type motivation where you like want to go out and do things and the idea of pursuing goals feels really good.
  所以，你实际上会发现女性的，嗯，去做外向型的方法类型的动力，你喜欢出去做事，追求目标的感觉非常好。

[09:04] that area, those um neurotransmitters get tap, the brakes get tapped on them a little bit to make
  那个区域，那些嗯神经递质被触及，刹车被稍微踩了一下，以至于

[09:11] women a little bit more introspective, wanting to stay home, wanting to stay safe.
  女性会更内省一些，想要待在家里，想要保持安全。

[09:17] Again, having a heightened um tendency to understand danger signals in the environment.
  再次，对环境中的危险信号有更强的理解倾向。

[09:20] You also get hungrier and sleepier um because progesterone actually intentionally um causes the brain to uh have an increase in what's called gabaurgic activity.
  你还会变得更饿、更困，因为孕酮实际上会故意导致大脑出现所谓的伽马氨基丁酸活动增加。

[09:31] So it's just like activating the calming centers of our it's this calming form of neurotransmission that slows the brain down and chills it out and it makes you again it sort of keeps you at home, right?
  所以这就像激活我们的大脑镇静中心，这种镇静形式的神经传递会减慢大脑的速度并使其平静下来，它会让你再次，它会让你待在家里，对吧？

[09:42] It's a very sort of relaxing type of a hormonal state.
  这是一种非常放松的荷尔蒙状态。

[09:44] It makes it so you don't go out and expend a bunch of energy unnecessarily.
  它让你不必出去不必要地消耗大量能量。

[09:52] And throughout most of our evolutionary history, you know, there wasn't a fast food place on every corner and it was really difficult to get calories.
  在我们进化史的大部分时间里，你知道，街角没有快餐店，获取卡路里非常困难。

[09:57] And so maintaining sufficient calorie stores for pregnancy um was a very important thing for the female body to do.
  因此，为怀孕维持足够的卡路里储备对女性身体来说是一件非常重要的事情。

[10:04] So you're sleepier, you're hungrier, your basil metabolic rate increases.
  所以你更困，更饿，你的基础代谢率增加了。

[10:06] So um a
  所以，嗯，一个

[10:12] A lot of times women report feeling hungrier during the second half of the cycle and that they're having these food cravings.
  很多时候，女性会报告在周期的后半段感觉更饿，并且有食物渴望。

[10:19] Um and it turns out that we're hungrier and have food cravings because we're probably not eating enough.
  嗯，结果发现我们之所以更饿并且有食物渴望，是因为我们可能吃得不够。

[10:23] Um because even though we've all been given sort of like one-size-fits-all nutritional guidelines about like, you know, hey Sarah, you with your activity level and you know your height, you should have about 2,000 calories a day.
  嗯，因为尽管我们都被告知了差不多是“一刀切”的营养指南，比如，你知道，嘿，莎拉，根据你的活动水平和你的身高，你每天应该摄入大约2000卡路里。

[10:36] And so if I'm a woman and I believe this to be true of every day of my cycle, I'm going to end up feeling kind of miserable in the second half because research finds that basil metabolic rate increases by anywhere between 8 and 11%.
  所以，如果我是一个女人，并且我相信这在我的周期的每一天都是真的，我最终会在后半段感觉有点痛苦，因为研究发现基础代谢率会增加8%到11%。

[10:51] So, like if you need 2,000 calories a day during the follicular phase or during the first two weeks of the cycle, you can need an extra almost like 150 calories close to 200 calories a day in the second half of the cycle.
  所以，就像如果你在卵泡期或周期的前两周每天需要2000卡路里，你在周期的后半段可能需要额外增加近150到200卡路里。

[11:03] And of course, women aren't told this, right?
  当然，女性并不知道这一点，对吧？

[11:04] And instead, they're just like, why am I so hungry?
  相反，她们只是想，为什么我这么饿？

[11:06] And why am I having why am I craving food even though I already ate?
  为什么我会有，为什么我会有食物渴望，即使我已经吃过了？

[11:11] Um, and so that changes.
  嗯，所以情况就变了。

[11:11] We shift from a
  我们从一个

[11:14] pro-inflammatory type of an immune response to an anti-inflammatory type of immune response.
  一种促炎性免疫反应，对一种抗炎性免疫反应。

[11:19] And that changes the way that our bodies respond to everything ranging from medication that we might be taking for chronic condition or even the symptoms that we have from chronic condition.
  这改变了我们的身体对从我们可能正在服用的慢性病药物到我们患有的慢性病症状的各种情况的反应方式。

[11:29] Um so there's a lot of research showing that women um that women frequently experience uh premenstrual they call it premenstrual worsening of symptoms like asthma and uh different types of autoimmune disease.
  嗯，所以有很多研究表明，女性经常会经历所谓的经前症状加重，比如哮喘和各种自身免疫性疾病。

[11:41] Um many women report that their ADHD medication stops working um at at this time in the cycle as well.
  嗯，许多女性报告说，她们的ADHD药物在这个周期的这个时候也会失效。

[11:46] and and it appears um from the research that the way that we even metabolize drugs is different during this phase in the cycle.
  研究表明，我们甚至代谢药物的方式在这个周期的这个阶段也不同。

[11:53] And so there's all these changes that go on um and because we're not told about them and we don't know what we're supposed to be looking out for and we're not told things for example like oh you know you need to eat more um your calorie needs actually change as your body temperature increases.
  所以有所有这些变化发生，因为我们没有被告知这些变化，我们不知道我们应该注意什么，而且我们没有被告知例如“哦，你知道你需要多吃点，你的卡路里需求实际上会随着体温升高而变化”。

[12:11] Um, a lot of times women walk around feeling pretty miserable and a lot of that misery is
  嗯，很多时候女性会感到非常痛苦，而这种痛苦很大一部分是

[12:15] kind of unnecessary because if we actually knew what was going on and what we needed to do to optimize and and feel our best.
  有点不必要，因为如果我们真的知道发生了什么，以及我们需要做什么来优化并感觉最好。

[12:24] Um, I think that for a lot of women PMS wouldn't be a thing.
  嗯，我认为对于很多女性来说，经前综合征就不会存在。

[12:27] So that's I guess what's happening inside of the brain and body.
  所以我想这就是大脑和身体内部正在发生的事情。

[12:29] Can you just dig into the adaptive reasons for that on both sides especially I mean you know the obvious question here is how is PMS adaptive if it makes women so miserable but across the entire cycle why are women predisposed to behave and feel all of the different ways that they do
  你能深入探讨一下这两种情况的适应性原因吗？尤其是我知道这里有个显而易见的问题，那就是经前综合征如何具有适应性，如果它让女性如此痛苦，但在整个周期中，为什么女性会倾向于以各种不同的方式行事和感受呢？

[12:49] right and again it's you know it's because reproduction for us requires two different jobs I mean when you consider the fact that our body has to in the course of and let's just assume a 28 day menstrual cycle um ac across the course of a 28 day cycle, a woman's body has to completely shift it gears from first being optimized for attraction and sex, right?
  是的，再说一遍，你知道，这是因为对我们来说，繁殖需要两项不同的工作，我的意思是，当你考虑到我们的身体必须在，假设一个28天的月经周期中，嗯，在一个28天的周期中，女性的身体必须完全改变它的齿轮，从首先优化吸引力和性行为，对吧？

[13:12] And so that's what estrogen does is it like pulls out all the stops to
  所以雌激素的作用就是它会全力以赴地去

[13:16] make us our sexiest, most energetic version of ourselves.
  让我们成为自己最性感、最有活力的版本。

[13:22] um and and you know sort of at the top of our game of being able to tell the difference between you know a really high quality mate and like a slightly less higher quality mate.
  嗯，而且你知道，在我们能够区分一个真正高质量的伴侣和一个质量稍差的伴侣方面，我们处于顶峰状态。

[13:30] Like what's some of the uh what's some of the research that you've looked at around this that sort of proves that this is to be the case?
  比如，你研究过哪些关于这方面的研究，能够证明这一点是真的？

[13:35] There's there's some really great research that finds that women's ability to pick up on on the different uh thresholds of a testosterone metabolite actually differs across the cycle and that um when estrogen is high and fertility is high and conception is possible, women can actually distinguish between very fine tuned differences in levels of of testosterone based on scentbased cues of this metabolite that it releases when it's broken down in the body.
  有一些非常棒的研究发现，女性对睾酮代谢物不同阈值的感知能力实际上在周期中是不同的，而且当雌激素水平高、生育能力强、可能怀孕时，女性实际上可以根据这种代谢物在体内分解时释放的基于气味线索来区分睾酮水平的细微差别。

[14:02] And at other points in the cycle, women aren't able to tell those differences, right?
  而在周期的其他时间点，女性却无法分辨这些差异，对吧？

[14:06] It's kind of like the difference between like you're drinking wine with somebody who's like a really, you know, like a like a wine connoisseur, right?
  这有点像你和一个真正的、你知道的、像品酒师一样的人一起品酒的区别，对吧？

[14:11] They can tell the difference between a, you know, 2020 and a 2021 Cabernet, right?
  他们能分辨出2020年和2021年的赤霞珠的区别，对吧？

[14:16] Whereas somebody
  而有些人

[14:19] who doesn't have a lot of experience with with wine, you know, might not be able to tell the difference at all.
  对于那些对葡萄酒没有太多经验的人来说，你可能根本无法分辨出区别。

[14:23] It all kind of tastes the same.
  它们尝起来都差不多。

[14:25] The same is true for a woman in the estrogenic versus progesteric phase of the cycle.
  对于女性在月经周期的雌激素期与孕激素期的不同阶段，情况也是如此。

[14:29] When you're in the estrogenic phase of the cycle, it's like women can tell clear differences between very fine-tuned differences in testosterone levels based on scent and also based on physical appearance of facial features.
  当你处于月经周期的雌激素期时，女性可以根据气味以及面部特征的物理外观，清楚地区分睾酮水平的非常细微的差异。

[14:41] So, they've done um some research.
  所以，他们做了一些研究。

[14:43] This was actually uh some research that was done by one of my uh honor students where we looked at women's ability.
  这实际上是我的一位荣誉学生做的一些研究，我们研究了女性的能力。

[14:47] We just like morphed faces by little tiny minute differences.
  我们只是通过微小的差异来变形面孔。

[14:52] Um and then we ask women, tell us when you start to notice that these faces are changing.
  然后我们问女性，告诉我们你什么时候开始注意到这些面孔在变化。

[14:59] And what we find is that near high fertility, when estrogen is high, women it lowers their threshold for where they're able to see the differences, right?
  我们发现，在接近高生育期时，当雌激素水平高时，女性能够看到差异的阈值会降低，对吧？

[15:06] It's like they're more attuned to the fine-tuned differences in testosterone levels in male faces.
  就好像她们更能察觉到男性面孔中睾酮水平的细微差异。

[15:13] And you don't see this going on in the second half of the cycle because being able, you know, keeping
  而在月经周期的后半段，你就看不到这种情况了，因为能够，你知道，保持

[15:19] All of that, um, cognitive architecture sharp is really metabolically expensive.
  所有那些，嗯，认知架构的敏锐度实际上是代谢成本很高的。

[15:24] And and and what we tend to see in the cycle, I mean, just at the level of the brain is that at high fertility when you have high levels of estrogen that it causes our our neurons to sprout new dendritic spines and actually makes our brain more sensitive to the environment, right?
  而且，而且，而且我们在周期中往往会看到，我的意思是，仅仅在大脑层面，就是在生育高峰期，当你雌激素水平很高时，它会导致我们的神经元长出新的树突棘，并使我们的大脑对环境更敏感，对吧？

[15:39] And it's because our brain, you know, it's in in our eyeballs and our noses.
  这是因为我们的大脑，你知道，它在我们眼球和鼻子里。

[15:43] I mean, that's like the the communication pathway between our brain and the rest of the world, right?
  我的意思是，那就像我们的大脑与世界其他地方之间的通信路径，对吧？

[15:47] And so our brain becomes very sharp on the ability to be able to distinguish these fine-tuned differences in the quality of partners when estrogen is high because this is the time in the cycle when uh sex can lead to conception.
  所以，当雌激素水平高时，我们的大脑会非常敏锐地分辨出伴侣质量的这些细微差别，因为这是周期中性行为可能导致怀孕的时候。

[15:59] Then during the later phases in the cycle, it's like having that ability is is a waste because sex can no longer lead to conception in the second half of the cycle.
  然后在周期的后期，拥有这种能力就好像是浪费，因为在周期的后半部分，性行为不再可能导致怀孕。

[16:09] Why would distinguishing levels of testosterone through smell or through face be something useful or important at all?
  通过气味或面部来区分睾酮水平，为什么会有任何用处或重要性呢？

[16:19] Yeah. Well, it's important because it's
  是的。嗯，这很重要，因为它是

[16:20] A hypothesized good genes marker, right?
  一个假设的优良基因标记，对吧？

[16:23] And so the idea here is that um testosterone provides a proxy cue to a man's genetic quality.
  所以这里的想法是，睾酮提供了男性基因质量的代理线索。

[16:29] And and usually when people are making this argument and and the evidence that's been uh proposed um in support of this general idea um is has to do specifically with um immunological uh immunological quality.
  通常，当人们提出这个论点时，支持这一普遍观点的证据，具体来说，与免疫学上的免疫质量有关。

[16:44] And the idea is this um we know that testosterone is imunosuppressive, right?
  想法是这样的，我们知道睾酮是免疫抑制的，对吧？

[16:50] It actually tamps the breaks down on the immune system.
  它实际上会抑制免疫系统。

[16:52] And the reason for this is because testosterone like shifts the body toward all things sex and mating, right?
  原因是因为睾酮会使身体倾向于性行为和繁殖，对吧？

[16:59] Right? And that takes energy away from being able to fuel your immune response.
  对吧？这会消耗能量，使其无法支持你的免疫反应。

[17:02] And so if a person has a lot of testosterone markers, it indicates the fact that their immune system is well enough put together that their body allowed high levels of testosterone to be released during development leading to the masculineization of these features like masculineized facial features, masculineized vocal cords and
  所以，如果一个人有很多睾酮标记，这表明他们的免疫系统足够强大，以至于他们的身体在发育过程中允许释放高水平的睾酮，从而导致了这些特征的男性化，例如男性化的面部特征、男性化的声带等。

[17:23] So on. A masculinized brain um that you know that their bodies were in sufficiently good shape that they were allowed to release this high level of testosterone despite the fact that they were also having to manage you know whatever types of um pathogens and parasites were in their environment.
  所以，一个男性化的大脑，你知道他们的身体状况足够好，以至于他们能够释放高水平的睾酮，尽管他们还必须应对你知道的他们环境中的任何类型的病原体和寄生虫。

[17:39] So interesting. So testosterone is not necessarily the marker that women are looking for itself.
  所以很有趣。所以睾酮不一定是女性寻找的标志本身。

[17:44] Testosterone is an indication that the physiology of this particular man is sufficiently robust that he has surplus immune system capacity.
  睾酮表明这个特定男性的生理机能足够强健，以至于他拥有过剩的免疫系统能力。

[17:55] So much so that his body could suppress some of it with this additional testosterone and he would still survive and still not be sick.
  以至于他的身体可以用这种额外的睾酮抑制一部分，而他仍然能够生存并且不会生病。

[18:03] Therefore, high tea equals good immune system.
  因此，高茶等于良好的免疫系统。

[18:06] Not necessarily high tea is what we're after directly.
  不一定直接追求高茶。

[18:12] Right. Exactly.
  对。没错。

[18:13] Yeah. No, I think that is both things honestly.
  是的。不，老实说，我认为那是两件事。

[18:15] But yeah, so you you hit the nail on the head and then obviously there's some other benefits from high tea directly.
  但是是的，你一语中的，然后显然高茶本身还有一些其他的好处。

[18:19] I mean just in terms of somebody being able to be a good
  我的意思是，仅仅从某人能够成为一个好的角度来说

[18:24] protector and a good you know um provider of resources because we know that those things are correlated but in terms of the developmental markers I mean it's like whether somebody has a masculinized face or masculinized voice or masculineized build or a masculinized personality.
  保护者和良好的资源提供者，因为我们知道这些事情是相关的，但在发育标志方面，我的意思是，这就像某人是否拥有男性化的面孔、男性化的声音、男性化的体格或男性化的个性。

[18:40] I mean all that's you know determined during childhood.
  我的意思是，所有这些都是在童年时期决定的。

[18:41] And so that's the story of their immune system being able to withstand, you know, reliably being able to withstand all these threats while also releasing high levels of testosterone leading to this masculinized phenotype.
  所以这就是他们的免疫系统能够抵御，你知道，能够可靠地抵御所有这些威胁，同时又释放高水平的睾酮，从而导致这种男性化表型的故事。

[18:54] Right?
  对吗？

[18:54] Okay.
  好的。

[18:58] And then so the argument here is women are more discerning of these sorts of traits.
  然后，这里的论点是女性对这类特征更有辨别力。

[19:02] They're able to see with kind of a higher resolution during the first during the first two weeks.
  她们在最初的两周内能够以更高的分辨率看到。

[19:06] um they are being more gregarious, being more outgoing, being more sort of socially uh adept, I would guess, and and and more out there.
  嗯，她们变得更合群，更外向，更善于社交，我猜，而且更活跃。

[19:17] What was that?
  那是什么？

[19:17] Wasn't there a study about strippers make more money during the first two weeks of their cycle as well?
  是不是也有研究表明脱衣舞娘在她们周期的前两周赚得更多？

[19:23] Yeah.
  是的。

[19:23] No.
  不。

[19:23] So, yes, there's this really
  所以，是的，有这个真的

[19:25] great study that was done where they had women keeping diaries and they they would just like indicate, did you get your period today?
  一项很棒的研究，他们让女性写日记，然后她们只是像指示一样，你今天来月经了吗？

[19:31] Yes or no.
  是或否。

[19:34] um they you know obviously put down how much time they spent at work and then how much money they earned.
  嗯，她们，你知道，很明显地记录了她们花了多少时间在工作上，以及赚了多少钱。

[19:39] And what they found was that even after you control for the number of hours they worked and so on and so forth.
  她们发现的是，即使在控制了她们工作的小时数等等之后。

[19:44] What you found was that those strippers who were naturally cycling, so meaning that they were not on birth control and they were able to enjoy uh the nice estrogen rise that you get prior to ovulation, that those women earned significantly more money at high fertility in the cycle when estrogen was high relative to what they earned at other points in the cycle when estrogen is low.
  你发现的是，那些自然周期排卵的脱衣舞女，也就是说她们没有服用避孕药，并且能够享受排卵前雌激素升高的好处，那些女性在雌激素高的排卵期赚的钱明显比在雌激素低的周期其他时间赚的钱要多。

[20:03] And they also earn more than women who are on the pill because women who were on the pill of course don't ovulate.
  而且她们比服用避孕药的女性赚得更多，因为服用避孕药的女性当然不会排卵。

[20:08] And so they never got that big earning bump um per ovulatory, right?
  所以她们从来没有获得过排卵期，对吧？

[20:11] Or right before um ovulation.
  或者在排卵前。

[20:17] Um and so they were sort of missing out on on that like free of cost um hotness surge uh that women are able to get from estrogen.
  嗯，所以她们有点错过了那种免费的，嗯，女性可以通过雌激素获得的性感激增。

[20:25] Wow. Okay. So,
  哇。好的。所以，

[20:30] what's I want to dig into. I want to

[20:32] know what's happening with the ovulatory

[20:33] shift hypothesis stuff because it seem

[20:35] it seems like this is suggesting women

[20:39] would almost certainly have different

[20:41] partner choices across the month that if

[20:44] you're able to detect cues of

[20:46] testosterone during the first half, then

[20:48] you're able to discern. And if you're

[20:50] unable to detect them in the second

[20:52] half, then that's definitely going to

[20:53] have some sort of an impact on you. But

[20:55] it seems to me looking at different

[20:58] things that come across my Twitter feed

[21:01] and my Substack feed uh that every week

[21:03] there's some replication crisis around

[21:06] ovulatory shift too. So given that

[21:08] you've been me in this, where do you

[21:11] come to sort of sit? I know this is kind

[21:13] of a spicy topic in the world of EP at

[21:14] the moment. It's it's always a spicy

[21:16] topic and I mean and I think one of the

[21:18] reasons that it's the spicy topic

[21:19] honestly is because um

[21:23] I I think that any research that's done

[21:25] on things that are related to women

[21:27] specifically I think get unduly

[21:29] scrutinized um in a way that I I don't

[21:32] really think is fair. But that being

[21:34] said um yeah it is it is a spicy topic

[21:37] and there's definitely been some um

[21:39] issues like with replication. And I mean

[21:41] there's just no question about it where

[21:43] some research will some researchers will

[21:45] find for example that near high

[21:47] fertility in the cycle that women do

[21:49] exhibit a heightened preference for

[21:51] masculineized male faces voices and

[21:53] behaviors. Other um research finding

[21:56] using maybe different methods or you

[21:58] know different types of um ways of

[22:01] assessing whether you're at high or low

[22:02] fertility um finding that they don't

[22:05] find this effect or they find it for

[22:07] some traits but not other traits. Um,

[22:10] and so I think when you look at the to

[22:12] like the totality of the evidence, I

[22:14] think for sure, um, there's something

[22:16] there, right? So, like one thing that I

[22:18] can I can say for absolute certain that

[22:20] I know is true because it's just been

[22:22] replicated a zillion times is that yes,

[22:25] women have an increase in sexual

[22:27] motivation at this time, right? So,

[22:28] women feel sexier, they smell sexier,

[22:31] um, you know, etc., etc. And, and

[22:33] there's pretty robust evidence on that.

[22:36] In terms of women's partner preferences,

[22:38] the best studies that I've ever seen

[22:40] looking at this topic, so looking at how

[22:42] women's hormones change across the cycle

[22:44] and looking at this within women

[22:47] longitudinally, find that there is a

[22:49] preference shift and in that women do

[22:52] have a heightened preference for these

[22:54] um cues related to testosterone. And so

[22:57] to me, I think that I mean, and some of

[23:00] the stuff like like you know, whether

[23:01] it's also symmetry, that one's a little

[23:04] bit up in the air. I'm not really sure

[23:05] about that one. Um, and but but with the

[23:09] um masculineization and testosterone, I

[23:12] feel confident that there's something

[23:13] there. Um, and like I said, there's

[23:15] there's been, you know, there have been

[23:17] some failures to replicate, but oftent

[23:19] times when I've seen those failures to

[23:21] replicate. The methods are a little bit

[23:23] of a mess. And I think that this is

[23:25] definitely something that you have to

[23:26] look at longitudinally within individual

[23:28] women because trying to make comparisons

[23:30] between women. I mean when you look at

[23:32] like levels of hormones and and I mean

[23:34] this is something that frustrates women

[23:36] no matter where they are like if they're

[23:38] trying to get pregnant or they're think

[23:39] that they're going into menopause or

[23:41] whatever. But when you look at the range

[23:43] of like what's normal for estrogen, it's

[23:46] almost like the difference between like

[23:48] if I were to say what's normal for a

[23:50] range of earning is like between $30,000

[23:53] a year and about a million and a half.

[23:55] >> Mhm.

[23:55] >> You know, and you're like, well, so then

[23:57] you get a test result back and it says

[23:59] you're normal, right? And it's like,

[24:00] well, what the [ __ ] does that mean?

[24:02] Yeah. Plus receptor receptor sensitivity

[24:05] and your psychological profiles

[24:07] predisposition which gets enhanced or

[24:09] tuned down based on where your hormone.

[24:11] Yeah, I I I can I can totally see how

[24:14] that would be the case. What you

[24:15] mentioned there um women have high

[24:18] libido uh feel more sexy, smell more

[24:21] sexy. How's that been tested?

[24:25] >> So that's really interesting. That's

[24:26] been tested in a variety of different

[24:28] ways. um one of So they've done t-shirt

[24:30] studies and with the t-shirt studies

[24:32] they of course have women wearing

[24:34] t-shirts that they wear at night that

[24:36] they sleep in and they can't wear any

[24:38] scented soap and no perfume and no

[24:40] deodorant, right? And then they have men

[24:42] um smell the t-shirts and what research

[24:45] tends to find is that um when men smell

[24:47] the t-shirt of women near high

[24:49] fertility, so when estrogen is high

[24:51] across the cycle, that they prefer the

[24:53] scent of women at that time relative to

[24:55] the exact same women. um in in the later

[24:58] phases of the cycle when conception is

[25:00] not possible. Um they've also studied

[25:03] this looking at um panty liners. So in

[25:06] one particularly provocative study they

[25:09] had women wearing panty liners across

[25:12] the cycle, right? So they would wear

[25:13] this panty liner for a full day and um

[25:16] and what the researchers did is they

[25:18] actually put the the panty liners and

[25:21] they they had them in groups, right? So

[25:22] they had one group that was a high

[25:24] fertility panty liners. So, these were

[25:26] panty liners worn by women um right near

[25:28] ovulation when conception is possible.

[25:30] And then they had another group uh then

[25:32] they had another group of panty liners

[25:33] that were worn by the exact same women

[25:35] during the ludal phase. And then they

[25:37] put them in a nebulizer and a nebulizer.

[25:40] No, I'm not. No. And they did this in

[25:42] South America because I don't think that

[25:44] we could get away with this in the US.

[25:45] >> You the ethics board wouldn't be keen on

[25:47] that.

[25:47] >> Yeah. They'd be like, I don't know. You

[25:50] want me to vaporize the smell of a

[25:52] woman's panty liner and get men to

[25:55] breathe it in so that you can look up,

[25:57] right? Okay.

[25:58] >> Yeah. They'd be like, "So, let me

[25:59] understand where the panty liner is

[26:01] going." Yeah. No, our ethics board would

[26:03] not like it. Um, but so they did this

[26:05] really wonderful it was it was a

[26:06] wonderful study. It was a wonderful

[26:07] study

[26:08] >> and they had these men come in and they

[26:10] didn't know what they were smelling

[26:12] >> and so they just

[26:13] >> Oh my god.

[26:14] >> Wow. They they just sniffed they sniffed

[26:17] this thing. They nebulize this thing and

[26:18] breathe it in not knowing what it was.

[26:19] >> Yeah. So, like breathing this this scent

[26:21] in and um and this is probably going to

[26:23] surprise you to learn. Um but men

[26:25] preferred the scent, they preferred the

[26:28] scent of the women's secretions at high

[26:31] fertility compared to low fertility. And

[26:33] the best part was in addition to just

[26:36] like the liking score, it increased

[26:38] men's testosterone and cortisol to be

[26:41] exposed to that scent of high fertility.

[26:44] And you know, and and it just really,

[26:46] you know, goes to show you that if

[26:48] there's like a little bit there's like a

[26:49] whiff of mating in the air, right? And

[26:52] and and and with, you know, estrogen and

[26:55] and ovulation, I mean, this is the time

[26:57] when a woman can get pregnant from sex,

[27:00] you know, and if you have men whose like

[27:02] bodies are able to just kind of pick up

[27:03] on that, they don't know what's going

[27:04] on. They're just like, "Wow, there's

[27:06] just something about this woman, right?

[27:08] And that's going to be something that's

[27:10] very inheritable."

[27:13] Was did that study replicate or has it

[27:16] been done again the one where they got

[27:17] silhouettes of women walking and showed

[27:20] them to men?

[27:21] >> Yeah. No, that was a great study and you

[27:24] know I have not seen any replication

[27:25] attempt on that if there like and and if

[27:28] it's not already in the works I'm sure

[27:29] that somebody is working on it um

[27:31] because there seems to be a whole group

[27:33] of researchers who's um seem to be

[27:36] building their careers on

[27:37] >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to like I'm

[27:39] trying to um say that women's hormones

[27:41] actually somehow magically don't matter

[27:44] and that um and that they we just

[27:46] they're just an extra

[27:48] >> that that was a really cool study. So

[27:49] for the people that that didn't hear I

[27:51] think we may even spoke about this on

[27:52] our last episode. Um

[27:54] >> there was a study done of women's

[27:56] silhouettes walking. So they completely

[27:58] kind of gotten rid of any of the the

[27:59] features of the women and they just

[28:01] asked men well which of these women do

[28:04] you find most attractive? And even the

[28:06] way that they moved was the women that

[28:09] they chose were the ones who were

[28:11] highest in fertility. It was that point

[28:12] in their cycle. So yeah, I you know,

[28:16] I find it fascinating. I'm glad that I'm

[28:18] not in the industry, so to speak. I get

[28:21] to be a sort of

[28:22] >> willing cheerleader on the sidelines.

[28:24] And I my my career is not at the mercy

[28:27] of the waxes and waines of whether or

[28:28] not ovulatory shift is is in vogue or

[28:31] out of vogue or cancelled or brought

[28:32] back in or whatever, resurrected. Um,

[28:35] but okay, so that's the first half. To

[28:38] summarize, women are more outgoing. Uh,

[28:41] they're more likely to have sex, uh, sex

[28:44] drive. They are more attractive to men.

[28:46] So, they're both more discerning of men

[28:48] and also found more attractive by men.

[28:51] So, that's an interesting one. I also

[28:52] haven't seen anybody

[28:55] I haven't seen any evidence suggesting

[28:57] that men's interpretation of female

[29:01] ovulation stage doesn't replicate. So

[29:05] yeah, there's there's there's uh

[29:06] criticism around

[29:08] >> do women's hormones do anything to

[29:09] women, but there's no criticism around

[29:11] do women's hormones do anything to men,

[29:13] which is actually pretty pretty funny

[29:16] when you think about it like that. Um uh

[29:19] and then we get into the second half and

[29:21] all of this is you are able to get

[29:23] pregnant. Now's the time. Come on, get

[29:24] cracking, lady. Um and then you pivot

[29:27] into the second half. You have the

[29:30] follicle release, the egg follicle

[29:32] release, which does a thing. And then

[29:35] what I'm interested in is the behavior

[29:37] in that second half.

[29:38] >> How is that how is that adaptive? How is

[29:41] it being miserable and and being low

[29:45] energy and needing more calories? Like

[29:47] what is that um engendering? What is

[29:50] that encouraging um in like an ultimate

[29:53] uh outcome uh way?

[29:56] >> Yeah. I know it's implantation and

[29:57] pregnancy, you know, and and so the

[29:59] first half is really about attraction,

[30:02] right? So we talked about all those

[30:03] things, sex, attraction, attraction,

[30:05] sex. And then the second half is about

[30:08] creating a space where you where an

[30:10] embryo can safely implant, right? And is

[30:13] gearing your body up for the possibility

[30:15] of pregnancy. And you know even the

[30:18] process of building and fortifying the

[30:20] endometrial layer which is this you know

[30:23] layer inside the uterus it's very unsexy

[30:26] but it's um it's a lot of tissue that

[30:28] gets built during this the second half

[30:30] of the cycle where all of this tissue is

[30:31] differentiating and it it's a really

[30:34] metabolically expensive time. Right? So

[30:37] women's body temperature increases

[30:38] almost a full degree during the second

[30:40] half of the cycle compared to the first.

[30:42] And the reason for this is because our

[30:44] body is like working very hard to get

[30:46] all of the pieces in place that are

[30:48] necessary for pregnancy to occur. And

[30:51] so, you know, we see these shifts in

[30:53] hunger, right? Where we become hungrier.

[30:56] We become less outward facing, right?

[30:58] Like we don't feel like going out and

[31:00] like going out dancing all night with

[31:01] our friends and, you know, going out and

[31:03] seeing a bunch of people because all of

[31:04] that is very energy expendit

[31:07] energy expenditure.

[31:08] >> Energy. Yeah.

[31:09] >> Like that's not a word. Um, but it's it

[31:11] it expends a lot of energy. Um, and so

[31:14] it's like our bodies go into an energy

[31:16] conservation mode, right? So we tend to

[31:18] want to eat more, we want to sleep more,

[31:20] we don't have as much energy for things

[31:22] because our body is using a lot of fuel

[31:24] to create all this new tissue and

[31:26] differentiate this tissue to prepare for

[31:28] the possibility of pregnancy. We're also

[31:30] again like we're we're more cautious

[31:33] during this time because our our

[31:35] threshold for what is considered

[31:36] threatening and not threatening changes,

[31:39] right? as you said, it's it's it's

[31:40] almost like the the resolution

[31:41] increases. And this is why, you know, at

[31:44] at one, you know, you could have

[31:45] something happen during the first two

[31:47] weeks of your cycle and it kind of rolls

[31:49] off your back. So, let's say your

[31:50] partner is like staying late at work a

[31:52] couple nights a week that week and

[31:53] you're like, "Oh, okay. All right. That

[31:55] means I'll, you know, hang out and watch

[31:57] um Netflix, the show I like that he

[31:59] doesn't like or whatever." But, you

[32:01] know, two weeks later, that can make it

[32:03] can sound your alarm bells, right?

[32:04] because what we consider what our brain

[32:06] is willing to entertain or what the

[32:08] alarm bells are kind of tuned to the the

[32:11] amount of information that's needed to

[32:13] cue it as a threat decreases.

[32:16] >> Um and it's because our brain is in this

[32:18] safety, you know, mode um during the

[32:21] second half of the cycle in a way that

[32:22] it's not during the first half of the

[32:24] cycle. And so we also get greater social

[32:27] sensitivity to threat. And this is true

[32:30] both like with external threats but also

[32:32] relationship threats. And again, you

[32:34] know, when we think about the things

[32:35] that are important for women and

[32:37] especially historically in order to

[32:38] promote a successful pregnancy, it is

[32:41] having your village, right? It's having

[32:43] a partner who's investing in you because

[32:45] throughout most of history, single moms

[32:47] didn't do very well, right? And it's

[32:49] also having a community around you

[32:50] that's investing in you because people

[32:52] without a community didn't do very well

[32:54] in terms of survival um outcomes of

[32:56] themselves and their offspring either.

[32:58] And so women become very dialed into

[33:00] those things and get dialed into threats

[33:02] so that way they can be able to

[33:04] remediate, you know, and and and

[33:07] >> Oh, it's that's an interesting it's an

[33:09] interesting contrast with being more

[33:12] extroverted, outgoing, party mode in the

[33:15] first two weeks with still being

[33:17] pro-social, but it's more sort of

[33:19] aloparenty.

[33:21] It's what's my place within the sort of

[33:23] female hierarchy, hidden, who's who's

[33:26] leaving me behind, who's not leaving me

[33:27] behind. It's kind of similar, but also

[33:29] superbly different.

[33:31] >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. And and women

[33:32] oftentimes feel more of a desire to to

[33:35] stay sort of withdraw, a little bit

[33:37] socially withdrawn, right? So, their

[33:39] relationships are important, but they

[33:41] don't want to be going out and hanging

[33:42] out with their friends, right? And like

[33:43] spending a bunch of time doing outward-

[33:45] facing activities. it it is sort of more

[33:47] of a internal time where we're in an

[33:50] energy conservation mode. And what's

[33:52] really funny is that um you know this

[33:54] isn't something that is just specific to

[33:56] humans because even there's been

[33:58] research done on um on baboons and they

[34:01] find that female baboons when they're in

[34:03] like after ovulation and they're in the

[34:06] sort of baboon equivalent of the ludal

[34:08] phase rather than being on the ground

[34:10] and grooming one another they sit up in

[34:11] a tree

[34:13] and like I identify with that baboon

[34:15] sitting in the tree during the second

[34:17] half of the cycle.

[34:18] >> Screw everybody. I don't want to hang

[34:19] out. like, "Yeah, I just don't want to

[34:21] hang out. I just like need I just need a

[34:23] moment, you know, and and it's really

[34:25] interesting because even sex and and the

[34:28] nature of the sex that we have tends to

[34:30] shift in the across the cycle."

[34:32] >> How so?

[34:33] >> And so, well, so you know, it's it's

[34:35] really interesting because humans are

[34:36] are kind of cool because most species

[34:39] like a mammal uh females don't have sex

[34:42] across the cycle. They just have sex in

[34:43] estrus, right? So during this time when

[34:46] uh sex can lead to conception and when

[34:48] you look at most mammals that's the only

[34:49] time that they have sex and the reason

[34:51] for this is that it's sex is costly. I

[34:54] mean it's metabolically costly just from

[34:55] the act of it all but it's also

[34:57] physiologically costly in terms of the

[34:59] fact that you're going to have an

[35:00] immunological event that occurs in your

[35:02] vagina um because there's going to be

[35:05] genetic material that enters there that

[35:07] does not belong to you. Right? So this

[35:09] creates inflammatory activity which is

[35:11] imunologically I mean it's

[35:12] physiologically costly and it also can

[35:14] create um you know unnecessary

[35:16] inflammation which can be not the best

[35:20] thing to experience when you're getting

[35:21] ready for the possibility of

[35:23] implantation of an embryo. Right? So all

[35:26] of these things make sex pretty costly

[35:28] during the ludial phase. But nonetheless

[35:31] human women have have sex during the

[35:34] ludial phase. So even though we see that

[35:36] sexual desire decreases um and women do

[35:39] tend to have sex less frequently in the

[35:41] second half of the cycle than they do in

[35:42] the first half of the cycle, when women

[35:44] do have sex is more often motivated by

[35:47] the desire to connect with their partner

[35:49] and and sort of pair bond than it is

[35:52] from just like you know need to have it

[35:55] right now sexual desire. And so they've

[35:58] done some really interesting studies

[35:59] where they've looked at um sex as a form

[36:02] as sort of a mechanism of pair bonding

[36:05] um in you know in in humans and in other

[36:08] species like prairie bowls also have sex

[36:10] across the cycle. And so they're oftent

[36:12] times studied to better understand like

[36:14] what is the function of a nonconceptive

[36:18] sex that's had in the ludal phase. And

[36:20] what they tend to find is that it it it

[36:22] activates all these great brain regions

[36:24] that are um related to pair bonding.

[36:26] Right? So oxytocin and you know and it

[36:29] helps to um uh seal the bond which again

[36:33] you know for women who are in a state

[36:34] when they could potentially become or

[36:36] could be pregnant. this is something

[36:38] that you need to do is like really work

[36:40] on the relationship um and help to

[36:42] ensure that you're going to have a good

[36:44] relationship with your partner who

[36:45] throughout most of our history we we

[36:47] would have been very much dependent on

[36:49] um during a state of pregnancy because

[36:51] um you know women as hunter gatherers

[36:53] when they're very pregnant um are not

[36:55] usually able to get enough enough

[36:57] calories to be able to feed themselves.

[36:59] So um they're very reliant on men. It

[37:01] helps to facilitate pair bonding.

[37:03] They've done cool studies in humans just

[37:05] even looking at um you know how women's

[37:08] uh sexual motivation changes across the

[37:10] cycle and um and what they find is that

[37:14] for women who are feeling the greatest

[37:16] need to connect with their partner. So

[37:18] women who feel sort of

[37:21] relationally insecure with their partner

[37:24] and and report that that they care for

[37:27] their partner more than they feel like

[37:28] their partner cares for them. So people

[37:30] who have the biggest gap in what we can

[37:32] think of as like you know perceived um

[37:35] care for one another in the

[37:36] relationship. It's women who have the

[37:39] biggest gap between how much they feel

[37:41] like they care for their partner and how

[37:42] much they feel like their partner cares

[37:43] for them who have the most sex and are

[37:46] most motivated for sex and have the

[37:47] highest sexual desire in the ludial

[37:49] phase suggesting that it it it you know

[37:52] serves this totally other type of a

[37:54] purpose um in the second half of the

[37:56] cycle. And and what's interesting about

[37:58] that I mean there's a lot of things that

[37:59] are kind of interesting about this but

[38:00] one of the things I think that this is

[38:02] really useful for um especially I mean

[38:04] well one it's useful for women to know

[38:06] about themselves because I think a lot

[38:08] of times you know our beliefs about like

[38:10] sex sex drive and sexual desire and sex

[38:12] and sex and sex is all very much based

[38:15] on sort of a male understanding of

[38:16] sexuality which is just that we should

[38:18] be 100% you know super turnonable all of

[38:21] the time and that any failure to

[38:24] experience that is like there's

[38:25] something wrong with us and that's just

[38:27] not how female sexuality works. Um, and

[38:29] that it is cyclical and that you do see

[38:31] these big peaks and valleys with it

[38:33] tending to peak um near high fertility

[38:36] and it tending to valley during the mid

[38:38] ludal phase. So about 3 weeks into your

[38:40] cycle. But it's also really good for

[38:42] communication, you know, and being able

[38:44] to understand in yourself that

[38:46] ludalphase sex is probably different.

[38:48] Um, being able to con like explain to

[38:50] your partner like, "Yeah, you know, last

[38:52] week a really hot quickie right before

[38:54] my afternoon meeting is exactly what I

[38:57] needed." That would hit me the wrong way

[38:58] right now, right? Cuz right now sex is

[39:00] about connection. It's not about just,

[39:02] you know, like let's have sex and then

[39:04] get get out of here. Um, because that's

[39:06] not going to feel right. Um, and

[39:08] understanding these things and being

[39:09] able to communicate these things, um,

[39:11] especially to women who have male

[39:12] partners, um, super helpful. Um and it

[39:15] really can uh make the relationship a

[39:17] lot better because women are be better

[39:19] able to articulate their needs to their

[39:21] partner and then of course their partner

[39:22] is better able to meet their needs.

[39:25] >> It does make sense. You know the

[39:26] concealed ovulation thing for women. Why

[39:29] is it that we have sex outside of the

[39:31] time when you can conceive babies? Well,

[39:33] it's that human babies are really

[39:35] effortful to raise which means that you

[39:37] need to have both partners very heavily

[39:39] invested. Male parental investment is

[39:41] relatively rare even in great apes. let

[39:44] alone in mammals across the board. Most

[39:47] dads are deadbeat dads. In fact, human

[39:49] even the most deadbeat human dad was

[39:51] probably more present than almost every

[39:53] other mammal dad. Um, and okay, so we

[39:56] need the bonding. That's why you got to

[39:57] it's kind of hard to have sex. That's

[39:59] potentially why ovulation is concealed.

[40:01] Also, maybe so that your female

[40:04] introsexual rivals can't [ __ ] with you

[40:06] and mess with your like uh release of

[40:09] eggs. And there's a bunch of different

[40:10] reasons, right? Um, but

[40:14] as soon as you accept the fact that sex

[40:16] is not just for procreation in humans,

[40:18] >> then this you don't even need really the

[40:20] studies to be able to tell you that this

[40:22] would be the case. You can just induce

[40:24] it from that fact. Okay? Sex is not just

[40:26] for procreation. Okay? So at least sex

[40:28] is for two things, right? It's for the

[40:30] procreation because if it wasn't for

[40:31] that, you wouldn't get any future

[40:33] generations. And it's for the for the

[40:34] pair bonding. So all that you're saying

[40:36] here is here are the building blocks of

[40:38] how that looks what that looks like.

[40:40] This is where and when this tends to

[40:43] happen overall. Not that procreation sex

[40:46] isn't bonding and not that maybe you

[40:48] mistimed your cycle and h like an egg

[40:50] did get released and like we got

[40:52] pregnant in week three or whatever,

[40:54] >> right? Yeah. No, absolutely. And and and

[40:56] it's just more about like unconsciously

[40:58] like what are the processes that's

[40:59] guiding the behavior which I think can

[41:01] be really helpful. So just to you know

[41:04] give an example of this um you know if

[41:06] we know that sort of ultimately right

[41:09] and so we're just talking about like

[41:10] ultim ultimate evolutionary reason that

[41:12] women have sex outside of high fertility

[41:15] is that it's pro it's promoting this

[41:17] pair bonding function right and it's and

[41:19] it is increasing connection. Um that's

[41:23] probably not a really great time if

[41:25] you're a woman who wants to just have

[41:27] casual sex to just like have casual sex,

[41:29] right? like if you're going to be having

[41:30] casual sex and obviously you don't want

[41:32] to have a lot of casual sex when you're

[41:33] ovulating if you're not using some form

[41:35] of birth control. But like if if if

[41:38] that's true, it might impact the timing

[41:41] of your decisions because I'm willing to

[41:42] bet I have not seen this study. So

[41:45] that's my caveat right there, but I

[41:47] would be willing to place a bet on the

[41:49] fact that it is more difficult for women

[41:51] to avoid emotional entanglements of sex

[41:55] as had specifically in the ludial phase

[41:56] compared to outside of it. um just

[41:58] because of that

[42:00] >> pair bonding. If you if you have a one

[42:02] night stand in the second two weeks of

[42:04] your cycle, your brain is going to be

[42:07] tricked into thinking this is someone

[42:09] that you should be bonded with more

[42:11] closely. So the sleep with him and not

[42:13] catch feels may be able to work. I think

[42:16] that's still pretty up for debate as

[42:17] well. But if it can work, it may be more

[42:19] likely to be able to work during the

[42:21] first two weeks than in the second two

[42:23] weeks.

[42:23] >> Yeah, that would be my guess. And again,

[42:25] it's like you're saying, it's not like

[42:26] the the sex that we have in the first

[42:27] two weeks of the cycle isn't also about

[42:29] connecting. It it it is right. And and

[42:31] and what our approximate level

[42:33] motivations are aren't always

[42:35] necessarily in step with the ultimate

[42:37] reason why we inherited a trait in the

[42:38] first place. Um but nonetheless, you

[42:41] know, given that we know that especially

[42:43] from the work in the prairie bowl that

[42:45] this non-conceptive sex is serving this

[42:47] like, you know, relationship cement

[42:49] function by releasing all these

[42:51] neurotransmitters that are related to

[42:52] pair bonding. It just seems to me like

[42:54] it would be a little bit more of a

[42:55] catching feels high-risk um type in time

[42:59] in the cycle. Um

[43:00] >> I suppose one thing I was thinking as

[43:02] you were talking there was what's the

[43:04] likelihood of extrammarital extra

[43:06] partner sex occurring. Um maybe it would

[43:11] be the sort of good genes whatever

[43:14] protective provider type mate switching

[43:17] hypothesis thing. Um,

[43:20] but then I also think how are you

[43:21] supposed to separate out just I have

[43:23] more sex drive in the first 2 weeks,

[43:25] therefore I was more likely to do the

[43:27] sex.

[43:28] >> Um, you would somehow have to be able to

[43:30] control for sex drive and adjust that

[43:32] across the cycle and then be like, okay,

[43:34] given same levels of libido, are women

[43:37] more likely to sleep with another man

[43:39] that isn't their main partner? That it

[43:41] seems like a little bit of a difficult

[43:42] one to arrive at.

[43:44] >> Yeah, I think that one would be

[43:45] difficult to arrive at. I know that

[43:46] they've done the studies where they say

[43:48] that, you know, lo and behold, women are

[43:49] more likely to have sex with their

[43:51] affair partners at high fertility in the

[43:53] cycle, but as you noted, you know, women

[43:55] are just more likely to have sex in

[43:56] general. And so, you know, I don't know

[43:59] that that anybody has found a really

[44:01] smart way to tease those two things

[44:02] apart.

[44:03] >> So,

[44:05] it doesn't sound to me, yeah, there's,

[44:07] you know, you need more calories and you

[44:09] don't want to hang with your friends and

[44:10] go to brunch with the girlies and put

[44:12] put heels on or whatever. Yeah, maybe

[44:13] you're a little bit more sensitive to

[44:15] your partner staying late at work or not

[44:17] giving you a cuddle before he wakes up

[44:18] in the morning. But, you know, largely

[44:21] this just feels like a a sort of

[44:22] relatively gentle swing between two

[44:25] different types of womanhood.

[44:27] >> Uh, and yet

[44:28] >> PMS reliably makes lots of women

[44:30] miserable. So, what's the disconnect

[44:33] here? Is this just my male brain? Am I

[44:34] unable to see it? or or is there is

[44:37] there more when you put this sort of

[44:39] suite of traits together that makes for

[44:41] a particular type of existence?

[44:43] >> Well, so I think it's a combination of

[44:44] things. So I think one of the reasons

[44:46] that it feels worse than it needs to is

[44:49] just simply because women haven't been

[44:51] given a blueprint for themselves that's

[44:53] anything other than just a smaller, you

[44:56] know, sort of pinker, you know, ver like

[44:59] less hairy version of a male way of

[45:02] being, right? And so I think that like

[45:03] we've kind of downplayed the impact that

[45:05] our hormones have on creating different

[45:07] types of physical and psychological

[45:09] states. And so I think that you know the

[45:11] things that we do aren't necessarily

[45:13] going to be optimizing ourselves during

[45:15] that time and that can make us feel

[45:16] worse. And just to give the example

[45:18] again, you know, we need more calories.

[45:21] Um if we're not eating those calories,

[45:22] we're going to have food cravings. We're

[45:23] going to be hungry and we're going to be

[45:24] cranky, right? Another example is that,

[45:28] you know, our recovery needs change

[45:30] during the ludal phase. And if you're

[45:32] just expecting that you're going to go

[45:34] and do like a really hard hit workout

[45:36] and then you're going to go for a run

[45:38] and then you're going to get, you know,

[45:39] x amount of sleep, um, and you're going

[45:41] to feel great the next day, um, that's

[45:43] not necessarily going to be as true in

[45:45] the second half of the cycle as it is in

[45:47] the first because your HRV gets lower

[45:50] because your heart rate increases, your

[45:51] body temperature is higher, your

[45:53] respiration is faster. It's like so it's

[45:55] harder for us to get, you know, calm

[45:58] down during that time. And um and and so

[46:01] that that too it's like a lot of women

[46:04] are, you know, by doing like a one-size

[46:06] one cycle phase like fits all like set

[46:09] of like workout activities or, you know,

[46:11] their their self-care routine. If all of

[46:13] that is treating themselves as the same

[46:15] version of themselves every day of the

[46:16] cycle, it can make them feel pretty

[46:18] terrible in the second half of the cycle

[46:19] because it does require more care,

[46:22] right? It requires more food. It

[46:23] requires more rest. It's harder to work

[46:25] out. You build less muscle from

[46:28] resistance training during that time

[46:29] because progesterone is catabolic and

[46:32] estrogen is anabolic and so is

[46:34] testosterone which tends to get

[46:36] co-released at the same time that um

[46:38] estrogen does in the cycle. And so it's

[46:41] like we have all of these changes and

[46:43] the fact that we aren't acknowledging

[46:45] them, right, is culturally it's just

[46:47] like oh hormones don't matter, you know,

[46:49] whatever. Like men and women are the

[46:50] same. Women are just small men. Um, so

[46:52] these don't matter. And so I think part

[46:54] of the reason that we feel bad is

[46:55] because if we just made small

[46:57] adjustments in the way that we treat

[46:59] ourselves and understand what our body

[47:01] is trying to do, I think that we can

[47:02] feel a whole lot better. And the other

[47:04] thing is that, you know, there's a lot

[47:06] of things just because of an

[47:07] evolutionary mismatch between the

[47:10] environments we spent most of our

[47:11] history and the ones that we live in now

[47:13] that can really erode at our um ability

[47:16] to be able to sort of w uh ride the wave

[47:19] of hormonal change in a smooth

[47:21] comfortable way. Um because being able

[47:24] to as a woman who cycles be able to go

[47:27] through these wild hormonal swings that

[47:30] happen especially in the ludial phase

[47:32] because the rise and fall of

[47:34] progesterone um peaks at levels that are

[47:36] 10 times higher than the peak levels of

[47:39] estrogen rising and falling in the first

[47:41] half of the cycle. So, you have these

[47:42] huge hormonal swings and being able to

[47:46] um have all the cells in your body that

[47:48] um pick up on sex hormones, be able to

[47:50] adjust to those things in in a sort of

[47:53] rapid fire way that allows you to kind

[47:55] of smoothly transition through the

[47:57] cycle. Those things get eroded by things

[47:59] like bad diets, not enough sleep, not

[48:02] enough sunlight, you know, um not

[48:04] getting exercise. All of these things

[48:06] that increase um and cause inflammation

[48:09] in the body erode at our resilience to

[48:11] hormonal changes and that also has the

[48:14] tendency of making these things feel a

[48:16] whole lot worse than what they need to.

[48:18] >> Is it right to say that women are more

[48:20] hormonal than men? Like whose behavior

[48:23] is more hormonally mediated?

[48:26] >> No, I mean it's not. You know, it's like

[48:28] our hormones are different but we both

[48:30] have hormones. Um and our hormones

[48:33] cycle, right? So for a man, you know,

[48:35] testosterone uh lives um on a 24-hour

[48:38] cycle. So testosterone peaks in the

[48:40] morning hours and then it decreases over

[48:43] the course of the day and then of course

[48:45] uh testosterone unlike women's two

[48:48] primary sex hormones changes dynamically

[48:50] in response to things in the

[48:51] environment, right? It's a reactive

[48:53] hormone. So if you see a beautiful woman

[48:56] or you smell a panty liner that somebody

[48:59] that somebody

[49:00] >> nebulizing by a South American

[49:02] researcher

[49:03] >> yes it's a nebulizer um your

[49:06] testosterone will increase but men's

[49:07] testosterone levels um I mean they they

[49:10] change and and you know and and that

[49:12] affects men's behavior. Women's sex

[49:14] hormones change in very predictable ways

[49:16] across the cycle and that changes

[49:17] women's behavior. Um and they're

[49:19] supposed to do these things. You know,

[49:21] it's like women's bodies, we have two

[49:23] jobs to do to reproduce. Sex, pregnancy.

[49:26] And so a cycle is just orienting our

[49:29] brain and our body toward those goals,

[49:31] right? And so for a man, you just have,

[49:34] you know, they have the primary sex

[49:35] hormone testosterone. And it has that,

[49:38] you know, nice circadian rhythmicity

[49:39] where again it peaks in the morning and

[49:41] then is lower at night. But then it also

[49:43] changes in response to anything in the

[49:45] environment that changes the benefits

[49:47] from sex, you know. So if a man wins a

[49:49] competition, it's like, "Oh yeah, no, I

[49:51] just won a competition. So I'm at the

[49:52] top of the heap, so now is a good time

[49:54] to go find a girl cuz you know, women

[49:56] like winners and so this is a great time

[49:58] to mate." Or you see a beautiful woman,

[49:59] like testosterone will go up like, "Oh

[50:01] yeah, I know it's a good time to make."

[50:02] >> It's also the same if if you were in a

[50:04] room with weapons and then it goes up

[50:06] even more if you pick the weapons up.

[50:08] So, I I I I've already kind of swallowed

[50:13] the uncomfortable like real maybe this

[50:16] this is like the testosterone pill,

[50:18] which is that men's behavior is

[50:21] hormonally maybe even less predictable

[50:24] than women's in that it responds to the

[50:27] environment in ways that you can't. At

[50:29] the start of the day, I don't know if

[50:30] I'm going to be in a room with a ton of

[50:31] axes, right? I don't know if I'm going

[50:33] to get to wield one and pretend that I'm

[50:35] a a mage for a small amount of time.

[50:37] Whereas at least women have got this

[50:39] idea across a cycle, I think I know

[50:40] where I'm going to end up. Uh at least

[50:42] in my experience, it's easier to lay it

[50:46] at the feet of hormones because it is

[50:48] more predictable. Like, but why was that

[50:50] guy cranky that day? Why was I why was I

[50:52] cranky today? Or why was I aggressive

[50:54] today? Or why was I feeling a little bit

[50:55] passive today? I don't know. Um, and you

[50:58] know, if I I would have to guess though

[51:01] that given women have got multiple

[51:03] hormones acting on them uh more so than

[51:05] men, that means that the swings in

[51:08] behavior, I would expect to be more

[51:10] progesterone is not going to be

[51:11] impacting men in the same way as it does

[51:13] for women. But I don't know, maybe

[51:15] testosterone is so powerful that it it

[51:17] causes swings in behavior that are

[51:19] greater than simply estrogen,

[51:20] progesterone. I'm not sure. I just um

[51:23] >> I so I don't know. So, I'll say this,

[51:25] you know, it's like like we have these

[51:27] and as you noted, I mean, women's

[51:29] hormones, they change in this incredibly

[51:31] predictable way. And the thing I always

[51:33] say is that if you tell me a woman's age

[51:35] and when she had her the first day of

[51:36] her last period, I can tell you with a

[51:39] pretty decent degree of accuracy what's

[51:41] happening with her primary sex hormones.

[51:43] Whereas with men, I couldn't do the same

[51:45] thing at all. You know, because I have

[51:46] no idea. It's like, did you just see a

[51:48] beautiful woman? Yeah. Were you in a

[51:49] room with a bunch of axes? Like, I have

[51:51] no idea. And so you get a lot more

[51:53] volatility in male hormones just meaning

[51:56] that they're less predictable than than

[51:58] women's, right? Just because our primary

[52:00] sex hormones change in a predictable

[52:02] way. Men's primary sex hormone changes

[52:04] in a relatively unpredictable way. But

[52:06] yes, we do have two primary sex hormones

[52:08] and men have one, right? And so this

[52:11] does mean that we that we cycle, you

[52:13] know, and it's because again, we've got

[52:14] two jobs our bodies need to do in order

[52:16] to reproduce instead of just one. and

[52:18] you know and and and that's been used to

[52:21] argue that there's something wrong with

[52:22] us, right? Like, oh well, you know,

[52:24] women are just more hormonal and you

[52:26] don't know what you're going to get.

[52:28] But, you know, the fact of the matter is

[52:29] the only reason that we have that

[52:30] narrative is because men came first, you

[52:33] know, just in terms of understanding

[52:34] what it means to be a human. And it's

[52:36] like we could very quickly imagine a

[52:38] world where women's biology was

[52:40] understood first, right? And then we

[52:42] would look at men and we'd say, "This is

[52:43] too simple." like these guys, like how

[52:46] can we know that he can make a good

[52:47] decision when he only has one hormone,

[52:50] you know, he can't even look at

[52:52] something from two different angles

[52:53] because he's just got this one primary

[52:55] hormone. I mean, it's it's it's the idea

[52:57] that we think that there's something

[52:58] wrong with our way of being is just an

[53:00] artifact of the fact that men were

[53:02] studied first. And so that was like all

[53:04] of our assumptions about what it means

[53:05] to be normal and that for things to be

[53:08] done right are are based on a male

[53:10] standard. And it just doesn't work for

[53:11] women. How many women understand what

[53:13] their cycle does to them, do you think?

[53:16] >> Not enough. You know, it's like we I

[53:18] didn't I didn't learn about any of this

[53:20] stuff until I was in graduate school,

[53:22] you know. And at that point, I mean, I

[53:23] guess I got my period when I was like 12

[53:25] and a half. And so, I'd had it for a

[53:27] really long time. And I had no idea what

[53:29] was going on except that I knew that it

[53:31] was, you know, related to the ability to

[53:33] reproduce. And I know that it meant that

[53:34] I had to buy tampons. But other than

[53:36] that, I spent zero time thinking about

[53:38] it. Most women aren't taught anything

[53:40] about any of this stuff. And the result

[53:42] is that um a lot of people are feeling,

[53:45] you know, either confused um or, you

[53:48] know, feeling bad.

[53:50] >> Can we really expect men to understand

[53:52] it if most women don't?

[53:54] >> I think well so I think two things. I

[53:56] think one I think that it's very

[53:58] possible for us to do a better job of

[54:00] educating women about what's going on

[54:01] with their bodies. Um, and you know,

[54:04] part of the reason I wrote my first book

[54:06] was of, you know, with the birth control

[54:07] pill was talking and and providing that

[54:09] information because that's information

[54:10] women oftent times aren't told. And the

[54:13] reason I wrote the new book, the period

[54:14] brain, is the same thing. It's just like

[54:15] trying to educate women about here's

[54:18] your biology because um, no, you know,

[54:20] the public school system is not going to

[54:22] teach it to you. So, I think that we can

[54:24] do better in terms of um, educating

[54:26] women. And in terms of educating men, I

[54:28] mean, I would hope that if you're a man

[54:30] that you'd want to know this information

[54:32] and not only just in a like, oh, you

[54:34] know, I love women and you know, want to

[54:37] be supportive of women.

[54:40] >> I'm a menstrual ally.

[54:41] >> Yes, I'm a menstrual ally. You know what

[54:44] I mean? like and it's so not just in

[54:46] that way but it's like as my husband

[54:48] says he is the most dangerous man in the

[54:51] western hemisphere because of all of the

[54:54] information that he has about the cycle.

[54:56] >> Um because he I mean it's like when you

[54:58] understand how women work it really does

[55:02] I mean and obviously you could use that

[55:03] to exploit women and that's not what I

[55:05] would like to recommend to anyone but it

[55:07] really helps you be a better partner. It

[55:09] helps you be a better friend. It helps

[55:10] you be a better father. I mean just

[55:12] understanding how women's biology work.

[55:14] Um I can't you know most men want to

[55:17] understand women and this is this is the

[55:20] key right here. It's like understand our

[55:23] hormones, understand how those shape our

[55:25] reality. Um and then I I really think

[55:27] that it makes for better relationships.

[55:29] >> A California jury found Meta in

[55:31] violation of state privacy laws for

[55:33] collecting health data from the users of

[55:35] the Flow period tracking app without

[55:37] consent. The class action lawsuit

[55:38] claimed Meta used data such as menstrual

[55:40] cycles, sexual activity, and fertility

[55:42] goals to support its advertising tools,

[55:44] internal communications presented in

[55:46] court showed Meta employees, allegedly

[55:48] discussing the collected data which

[55:49] included information users entered into

[55:51] the app from 2016 to 2019. So yes, you

[55:54] may want men to better be able to

[55:57] understand your cycle, but perhaps not

[55:59] to be able to target you with that. That

[56:01] literally happened yesterday. That

[56:02] happened yesterday.

[56:03] >> Yeah. No. Yeah. No, I had heard about

[56:05] that. I didn't hear why. Like I I had

[56:07] heard that there was a breach. I didn't

[56:08] hear the details. So that I'm sure that

[56:11] that they were trying to, you know,

[56:13] >> they're pinning you with pink lace

[56:15] doilies and [ __ ] cuddly toys when Oh,

[56:19] she's in her she's in the second half of

[56:21] her period. We can get her with all of

[56:23] the fluffy stuff like tea cozies. She'll

[56:25] love that. Um you you mentioned that the

[56:28] pill. Um, talk to me about how the pill

[56:31] impacts the period brain like tying

[56:34] together book one and book two.

[56:36] >> Yeah. So, the pill essentially takes,

[56:38] you know, we've been talking about the

[56:40] fact that women have our bodies have

[56:41] these two jobs we have to do to

[56:43] reproduce. And the result of this is

[56:45] that we wax and wayne between these two

[56:47] hormonal states, right? the estrogenic

[56:49] state, which is like the wild sex kitten

[56:51] version of ourselves, and then, you

[56:53] know, progesterone and the ludal phase,

[56:55] which shifts us into kind of our earth

[56:57] mother, you know, mom jeans uh side of

[56:59] ourselves. And so, for a naturally

[57:01] cycling woman, you're kind of waxing and

[57:02] waning between these two um these two

[57:05] different but complimentary states. Uh

[57:07] and when when you take the birth control

[57:08] pill, it shuts all of that down. So

[57:10] essentially what it does is um the

[57:13] progesterine which is the money maker I

[57:15] mean just in terms of the action that

[57:18] prevents um pregnancy in uh different

[57:21] types of hormonal birth control but that

[57:23] progesterine is mimicking the acts of

[57:25] progesterone which again is that hormone

[57:28] that's released during the second half

[57:29] of the cycle. Um, and it it activates

[57:32] progesterone receptors in the brain. And

[57:34] when the brain is reading when the

[57:36] progesterone receptors are reading a

[57:38] signal, so they're getting signal, that

[57:40] tells the brain not to stimulate the

[57:42] ovaries to not produce an egg. And then

[57:45] of course, you don't produce estrogen.

[57:47] And then if you don't ovulate, you don't

[57:49] produce progesterone. And so, um, by

[57:51] virtue of these synthetic, uh,

[57:55] progesterines, which are very different

[57:56] from progesterone, by the way, so I

[57:58] don't, we don't need to get into the

[57:59] weeds on all of that, but just, um, for

[58:01] listeners to understand that the way

[58:03] that you feel on a progesterine, which

[58:05] most women feel pretty awful, is not the

[58:07] same as the way that you feel on

[58:09] progesterone. They actually are

[58:11] completely different molecules and they

[58:12] act very differently in the brain and

[58:14] very differently in the body. But the

[58:16] progesterines do get picked up by the

[58:18] progesterone receptors in the brain

[58:20] sufficiently enough to, you know,

[58:22] inhibit um the brain from telling the

[58:24] ovaries to release an egg. And so what

[58:27] this does is it flatlines women's

[58:28] hormone production. So women are no

[58:30] longer producing high levels of their

[58:32] own indogenous or internal sex hormones

[58:35] and instead they're getting the same

[58:37] daily dose of a relatively high level of

[58:39] synthetic progesterone known as the

[58:41] progesterine and then a relatively low

[58:43] level of estrogen. And what this means,

[58:45] of course, is that when you're on the

[58:46] pill, you don't get that nice big

[58:48] beautiful bump in estrogen that makes

[58:50] women feel so sexy and alive. Um, and

[58:52] instead, you're living in the state of

[58:54] hormonal deja vu where you have a

[58:56] relatively high level of progesterine

[58:58] and a low level of estrogen. And this of

[59:01] course, you know, it it has all kinds of

[59:04] sweeping effects on the way that we

[59:06] think and feel and experience the world

[59:08] because our hormones of course um play a

[59:10] really integral role in in what that

[59:13] means for women.

[59:14] >> So, is it kind of like permanently being

[59:16] in the final two weeks?

[59:18] >> It's kind of like being in the final two

[59:20] weeks um but with a caveat. And so I'm

[59:22] I'll just quickly without getting into

[59:25] the weeds too much um just say that you

[59:28] know on the one hand it's like the last

[59:30] two weeks of the cycle because you do

[59:31] see a decreased sexual desire for

[59:33] example and you do see less of a

[59:35] preference for masculineized male faces,

[59:38] voices and behaviors, right? And so you

[59:40] do tend to see some of those um changes

[59:42] in sexual psychology that are similar to

[59:44] the second half of the cycle. But you

[59:46] also get a bunch of other stuff that's

[59:49] um that nobody's really bargaining for

[59:51] when they're taking hormonal birth

[59:52] control. And and the reason for this is

[59:54] that the synthetic uh progesterone that

[59:57] um is used in most commercially

[59:59] available uh birth control is not

[01:00:01] synthesized from progesterone. And in

[01:00:03] fact, no progesterines that are used um

[01:00:06] on the market are synthesized from

[01:00:07] progesterone. They're um they're all

[01:00:09] either synthesized from um from

[01:00:12] testosterone. Most of them are

[01:00:13] synthesized from testosterone or they're

[01:00:15] synthesized from um spiralactylone which

[01:00:18] is a diuretic. Um and this is important

[01:00:21] this distinction between something you

[01:00:23] know this progesterine which is

[01:00:25] synthesized from not progesterone right

[01:00:27] either testosterone or spiralone um and

[01:00:30] progesterone ends up being really

[01:00:31] important because when the body is

[01:00:33] breaking down actual progesterone it

[01:00:36] releases this um really calming uh

[01:00:39] metabolite. is a neuroststereroid called

[01:00:40] alop pregnanolone that's really good at

[01:00:43] promoting mental health and um mood

[01:00:46] stability and a bunch of other things

[01:00:48] that um help women function and feel

[01:00:50] pretty good. Um whereas these

[01:00:53] progesterines

[01:00:55] when they're being broken down in the

[01:00:56] body because they are not made out of

[01:00:58] progesterone you don't get the release

[01:01:00] of alopregenolone. And so women who are

[01:01:03] on the pill actually have a a really low

[01:01:06] levels of this really calming

[01:01:08] neurosteroid that does help to promote

[01:01:11] um mood balance, mental health and other

[01:01:14] things like that. And and it's actually

[01:01:15] been argued that, you know, this is

[01:01:17] probably one of the primary mechanisms

[01:01:20] um by which hormonal birth control has

[01:01:22] been linked with mood disorders and

[01:01:23] anxiety disorders.

[01:01:25] >> Contraceptives raise depression risk by

[01:01:28] 40% in teens and women.

[01:01:31] >> Yes. Yeah. It's pretty it's pretty s uh

[01:01:34] pretty substantial. It's a pretty

[01:01:35] substantial increase. And it's something

[01:01:37] that you know until recently and and

[01:01:39] it's even now it's like only the

[01:01:41] Europeans are actually stating this like

[01:01:43] like their their um their group that you

[01:01:47] know uh does the licensing for OBGYNS

[01:01:51] finally you know acknowledge that yes

[01:01:53] you can get mood related side effects

[01:01:54] from hormonal birth control. The

[01:01:57] American group is less to um less quick

[01:02:00] to um accept that and like make that

[01:02:03] something that they communicate to their

[01:02:04] patients. But yeah, it's it's a real

[01:02:06] issue for a lot of women, especially

[01:02:08] teenagers. Um, teens are the ones who

[01:02:10] are asymmetrically hit with the mental

[01:02:13] health side effects from the pill. And

[01:02:14] so, it's likely the result of those

[01:02:17] funky progesterines and the fact that

[01:02:19] they don't metabolize like a regular

[01:02:20] progesterone.

[01:02:22] >> Interesting. Okay.

[01:02:25] Women on the pill show 10 to 20% lower

[01:02:29] relationship satisfaction.

[01:02:31] Where's that coming from?

[01:02:33] >> Yeah, that's really interesting. So um

[01:02:36] my guess is that what's happening with

[01:02:38] that is is twofold is that one anytime

[01:02:41] that you have some sort of a mental

[01:02:43] health related thing like something like

[01:02:44] depression or anxiety that might be

[01:02:46] caused as a result of the the lack of

[01:02:49] alop pregnanolone of pill users um that

[01:02:52] can just decrease your satisfaction with

[01:02:53] everything right so it might not

[01:02:55] necessarily just be about your partner

[01:02:57] it just might be that you're more

[01:02:58] critical about everything and so that's

[01:03:00] one possibility and another possibility

[01:03:03] is that I I think that when you aren't

[01:03:06] able to experience yourself as a

[01:03:09] naturally cycling woman who's going

[01:03:11] between these phases, you know, of

[01:03:13] estrogen being high and then

[01:03:14] progesterone being high, um it's like

[01:03:17] when you're naturally cycling, you get

[01:03:19] the full bandwidth of like what's good

[01:03:22] in relationships, right? like you're

[01:03:24] able to like really, you know, feel

[01:03:27] sexual satisfaction and desire and

[01:03:29] you're able to feel, you know, this like

[01:03:31] emotional closeness and and desire and

[01:03:34] um and I think that that is part of what

[01:03:36] creates within us like the feeling that

[01:03:38] we have a satisfying relationship. And

[01:03:40] for women on the pill who generally have

[01:03:42] lower levels of sexual desire, right?

[01:03:44] And they've also tend to report lower

[01:03:46] sexual satisfaction, less attraction in

[01:03:49] their relationships, and not necessarily

[01:03:51] because they chose the wrong partner,

[01:03:52] right? Although there's some research

[01:03:53] that indicates that that might be a risk

[01:03:55] too, but instead because they're not

[01:03:57] experiencing sexual desire, it's just

[01:03:59] like turning the volume down on what is

[01:04:01] a like a really important aspect of a

[01:04:03] romantic relationship and so not to

[01:04:05] really have much of a libido and then

[01:04:08] not to really feel that much attraction

[01:04:09] to your partner just because you know

[01:04:12] attraction and sexual desire is all

[01:04:14] fueled by estrogen you know suppressing.

[01:04:17] >> Yeah. And it's suppressing that and so

[01:04:19] it's like women are missing out. But

[01:04:20] it's almost like you have a jigsaw

[01:04:22] puzzle and you take out like half of the

[01:04:23] pieces and then you're like, "How do you

[01:04:25] like the puzzle?"

[01:04:26] >> You're like, "I don't know. I guess it's

[01:04:27] okay."

[01:04:29] >> Is it right to say women on the pill

[01:04:30] lose an authentic part of themselves?

[01:04:33] >> Yeah, I do. I I do. I think that is

[01:04:35] masking an authentic part of yourself,

[01:04:37] you know, and this could be for better

[01:04:38] or for worse, right? The same way that

[01:04:40] we could say, you know, that taking an

[01:04:42] SSRI or an anti-depressant is masking,

[01:04:45] you know, a person like a real essence

[01:04:48] of a person as well. um which I think is

[01:04:50] true, but you know, some people prefer

[01:04:52] the way that they feel on it and so they

[01:04:54] want that to be masked, but it is

[01:04:55] nonetheless masked, right? And the same

[01:04:57] with the birth control pill. It's like

[01:04:59] it's not, you know, you're not really

[01:05:01] yourself when you're on the pill. And

[01:05:04] and like I said, and that could be for

[01:05:05] better or for worse. Some women feel

[01:05:07] better when they're on it and and they

[01:05:09] like that version of themselves. And and

[01:05:10] you know, and if that's if that's how

[01:05:12] they feel, God speed, you know, you can

[01:05:15] be on it safely and it is um and it's

[01:05:18] effective. So,

[01:05:19] >> could oral contraceptives be the biggest

[01:05:22] unexamined mental health experiment

[01:05:23] that's ever happened?

[01:05:25] >> Yeah. No, I think so. I do. I think that

[01:05:27] and uh teenage anti-depressant use. I

[01:05:30] think that both of those things are

[01:05:31] >> and a lot of those are going to be

[01:05:32] happening in collaboration with each

[01:05:35] other as well.

[01:05:36] >> Yeah. No, they are because the risk of

[01:05:37] being prescribed an anti-depressant goes

[01:05:39] up significantly after you start

[01:05:41] hormonal birth control.

[01:05:42] >> Oh, man. Well, look, I remember the

[01:05:44] first conversation that we had when you

[01:05:46] came out. It was at episode 550,

[01:05:48] remembering that episode 1,000 comes out

[01:05:50] next month, right? So,

[01:05:52] >> oh my gosh,

[01:05:52] >> I know. I was early. I was early to the

[01:05:54] Dr. Sarah Hill party. Um,

[01:05:56] >> I love it.

[01:05:58] >> A bunch of things have sort of come to

[01:05:59] mind as you've been talking. First one,

[01:06:02] you mentioned, we both spoken about how

[01:06:04] men's hormone levels are environmentally

[01:06:07] mediated. Uh, so local ecology, wherever

[01:06:11] you are that day, what's going on? Did

[01:06:12] you just win the lottery? Did you win

[01:06:13] the sports game? Did you get to touch an

[01:06:15] axe? Was there a hot girl? Like, how big

[01:06:17] were her boobs? That big or bigger? Wow.

[01:06:19] Like more testosterone. Um, and one of

[01:06:23] the things that we came up with, which

[01:06:25] I've still never heard anybody actually

[01:06:27] put forward as a theory, but I still

[01:06:30] talk about this all the time, there is

[01:06:31] an X factor that appears to be missing

[01:06:33] from the decline in men's testosterone.

[01:06:36] That it's the microplastics, it's the

[01:06:38] fatness and obesity, it's the lack of

[01:06:41] sunlight, it's the all the way down. And

[01:06:44] still a lot of testosterone researchers

[01:06:46] are going this can't be the whole

[01:06:49] picture. What we said last time was well

[01:06:52] given that men's testosterone levels are

[01:06:55] mediated by the fertility of the women

[01:06:57] around them. If men who smell panties

[01:07:01] during the fertile phase get more

[01:07:03] testosterone than men who smell the

[01:07:04] panties from the second half phase. That

[01:07:08] means that if you chronically globally

[01:07:11] suppress female fertility signaling,

[01:07:15] whether it's through smell or touch or

[01:07:17] the way that they walk down the street

[01:07:19] or the size of their boobs or how much

[01:07:20] makeup they put on or how outgoing they

[01:07:22] are, whether they come up and talk to

[01:07:24] you in the B, all of these things,

[01:07:25] right? This big suite. Um,

[01:07:27] >> there is absolute it is I I would put

[01:07:30] all of my money on the line that it is a

[01:07:32] nonzero effect on men's testosterone.

[01:07:35] So, not only

[01:07:37] is birth control impacting female

[01:07:41] hormone levels, but it is 100% impacting

[01:07:44] male hormone levels as well.

[01:07:46] >> Yeah. No, I totally think so. I I think

[01:07:48] so. And actually, in two ways. So, it's

[01:07:49] so funny that you say that because I

[01:07:51] talk about this all the time, too. And

[01:07:52] no, and and and there's still no

[01:07:54] research on it and I talk about it. I

[01:07:55] talk about it constantly.

[01:07:56] >> It's our secret little I mean, not that

[01:07:58] secret that we've spoken about it tons

[01:07:59] of times.

[01:07:59] >> I was going to say, yeah. No, I think

[01:08:01] that I think that we need to like we

[01:08:02] just need to put this to to bed and we

[01:08:04] need to have a study. we need to do the

[01:08:05] we need to do the research and and get

[01:08:07] it done so we can um we can work on

[01:08:09] collaborating on a project on this. I'm

[01:08:11] actually fascinated by this. So, and

[01:08:13] here's another piece of that, right? So,

[01:08:15] one piece being that um and this was

[01:08:17] something that just occurred to me last

[01:08:18] year. So, I don't think that this made

[01:08:20] it into our last our last conversation,

[01:08:22] but with the um as you were noting, it's

[01:08:24] like yes, we know that men are sensitive

[01:08:26] to fertility cues, right? And and that

[01:08:28] men's testosterone responds to fertility

[01:08:30] cues. And so there is like almost no way

[01:08:33] like I can't imagine a universe in which

[01:08:35] men's testosterone levels are not being

[01:08:37] impacted by the fact that so many women

[01:08:39] are on the pill, right? Because you have

[01:08:40] all this supp like suppressed fertility.

[01:08:43] Of course, of course men's hormones are

[01:08:45] going to respond to that. And of course

[01:08:46] that has to be contributing to the

[01:08:48] decrease in testosterone that we see in

[01:08:50] men. Another piece of it is, and I think

[01:08:52] this is interesting, and it's also

[01:08:53] related to birth control, but

[01:08:55] indirectly, and that is, you know,

[01:08:57] there's this really great research that

[01:08:59] has been done now for a couple of

[01:09:01] decades now, looking at um looking at

[01:09:04] male parental investment and

[01:09:06] testosterone levels. Are you familiar

[01:09:07] with this work?

[01:09:08] >> Oh, no. Teach me. Teach me.

[01:09:10] >> Okay. So, you ready? You ready for the

[01:09:11] depressing facts? So, it's actually not.

[01:09:13] No, it's actually brilliant. Like, this

[01:09:15] is like brilliant design of the human.

[01:09:17] This is how brilliant our our bodies

[01:09:19] are. So, when men have like get into

[01:09:22] long-term relationships, for example,

[01:09:24] their testosterone goes down a little

[01:09:25] bit,

[01:09:26] >> right? And it does this because it's

[01:09:27] obviously very adaptive to stop paying

[01:09:30] attention to the next door neighbor

[01:09:31] every time she's out watering the lawn,

[01:09:33] right? If you're trying to maintain your

[01:09:35] pair bond, right? And so, you get this

[01:09:37] little bit of break tapping that goes on

[01:09:39] with testosterone levels. Well, when men

[01:09:41] have children, break gets tapped a

[01:09:44] little bit more, right? And again, it's

[01:09:45] counterproductive if you're a man who's

[01:09:47] trying to, you know, who's in a

[01:09:49] long-term pair bond that you care about

[01:09:50] and you have children that you care

[01:09:51] about. It's counterproductive to have

[01:09:53] all of your energy focused on looking at

[01:09:55] beautiful women, right? You should

[01:09:57] instead, you know, have your energy

[01:09:59] focused elsewhere. There's also research

[01:10:01] showing that the more time you spend

[01:10:03] caregiving, the more the break gets

[01:10:06] tapped. Okay? So, your break just keeps

[01:10:09] getting tapped. And um so they've done

[01:10:10] these really great longitudinal studies

[01:10:12] on fathers and they find that you know

[01:10:14] over time men who become father like you

[01:10:16] get this decrease in testosterone that

[01:10:18] corresponds with fatherhood. It's the

[01:10:20] greatest for men who do the greatest

[01:10:21] amount of caregiving. And so one of the

[01:10:23] things that the birth control pill has

[01:10:25] done has allowed women to enter the

[01:10:26] workforce and mass. Right? So women are

[01:10:29] into the workforce and mass working

[01:10:31] working. What are women doing if they

[01:10:33] have children with their partners? Are

[01:10:35] they saying well I'm also going to do

[01:10:36] all of the mothering? No. Right?

[01:10:38] Instead, we've become more egalitarian

[01:10:40] with parenting. And now, even though

[01:10:42] women still do the majority of child

[01:10:45] care, um, and even though, you know, men

[01:10:47] have kind of come a long way in terms of

[01:10:49] being willing to chip in, women are

[01:10:50] still shouldering most of it, but men

[01:10:52] are doing more than they used to.

[01:10:55] >> And with greater male child care, tap

[01:10:58] tap tap goes testosterone.

[01:11:00] And so, um, I think that,

[01:11:02] >> god damn it, ladies, come on. We just

[01:11:05] want to be able to gain some muscle.

[01:11:06] Leave us to it. Stop making us get into

[01:11:08] relationships and stop [ __ ] tamping

[01:11:11] your fertility down and work walking in

[01:11:14] unsexy ways and making us hold babies.

[01:11:16] Yeah, it's

[01:11:17] >> terrible. Yeah, we're we're a really

[01:11:18] we're a terrible group.

[01:11:19] >> Well, what it shows what it what it

[01:11:21] shows is kind of how um global this

[01:11:26] impact is, how sort of macro and it's

[01:11:28] lots of different things happening all

[01:11:30] at the same time. I guess

[01:11:34] something else which is kind of an

[01:11:36] implication here is that in the past the

[01:11:42] waxes and ways of how hard women worked

[01:11:45] and how much they did ancestrally that

[01:11:47] must have tracked more closely with or

[01:11:50] at least this is what I'm reading as

[01:11:51] your implication that women don't

[01:11:53] understand that they need to kind of

[01:11:54] have a different lifestyle setup in the

[01:11:56] final two weeks versus the first two

[01:11:57] weeks but by building a uh work

[01:12:01] environment 9 to5 5 days a week four

[01:12:04] weeks per month that that um doesn't

[01:12:08] exactly allow for the flexibility and we

[01:12:10] need to show like the meeting is

[01:12:12] happening next Thursday whether you're

[01:12:14] on your period or not whether you're

[01:12:15] fertile or not like these things are

[01:12:17] happening because

[01:12:18] >> again men's changes in hormones uh don't

[01:12:22] occur with the same sort of regular

[01:12:24] swings in that kind of a way and because

[01:12:28] maybe in that way you could argue

[01:12:29] they're predictable or at least sorry

[01:12:31] less subject to change like across a

[01:12:34] month uh less predictable within a day.

[01:12:37] Something like that would be an

[01:12:38] interesting way to put it. Um,

[01:12:41] I the I guess the rough question here is

[01:12:45] does this mean that the highpowered

[01:12:49] superw women boss [ __ ] career ladies

[01:12:52] who are chasing down something that they

[01:12:56] really want to do, are they going to be

[01:12:57] subject to burnout more quickly because

[01:13:01] they are pushing themselves and putting

[01:13:02] themselves into a world that they

[01:13:05] weren't designed for in that kind of a

[01:13:07] way. They're not designed for this uh

[01:13:10] like 2828

[01:13:12] always on uh workflow style in the same

[01:13:16] way that a man with his testosterone

[01:13:18] level might be.

[01:13:19] >> Right. Right. And I mean there's there's

[01:13:21] a lot of research evidence that suggests

[01:13:23] that women are suffering from burnout at

[01:13:25] a greater rate than men. Um and I I do

[01:13:28] think that that is part of the picture,

[01:13:30] right? is that is that um is that it

[01:13:33] it's easier physiologically for us to

[01:13:35] get burned out than it is for men just

[01:13:37] simply because we do have those um

[01:13:39] cycling hormones. Now, the good news is

[01:13:41] for women, you know, it's like you do at

[01:13:44] some point go into menopause, right? And

[01:13:46] then at that point,

[01:13:47] >> there's a finish line, ladies. It just

[01:13:48] happens to be menopause.

[01:13:49] >> Yeah. No. And well, no. And and and you

[01:13:51] know, and these things don't need to be

[01:13:53] like it doesn't need to be the sort of

[01:13:56] thing like when we're experiencing these

[01:13:58] changes across the cycle. It doesn't

[01:13:59] need to be the sort of thing where

[01:14:00] you're like having to have, you know,

[01:14:02] ask your boss to like schedule your

[01:14:03] meetings around your period or whatever

[01:14:05] because I mean that's like [ __ ] and

[01:14:07] totally, you know, not the way that the

[01:14:09] world works. And and it's not even

[01:14:11] necessary. I mean, instead, it's just

[01:14:12] about making sure that you're taking

[01:14:14] care of yourself, you know, and and

[01:14:16] especially during the second two weeks

[01:14:17] of the cycle. I mean, it's it is easy to

[01:14:19] get burned out during that time. I mean,

[01:14:21] it's your your heart rate is up, your

[01:14:24] HRV is low, your um it's harder to get

[01:14:27] into deep sleep. I mean, there's all of

[01:14:29] these

[01:14:30] >> Don't more women uh leave their jobs?

[01:14:33] They like resign from their jobs during

[01:14:35] the second half of their their cycle. Is

[01:14:38] that it? I have not seen that. But let

[01:14:41] me like I would speculate that if that

[01:14:43] is true that again it's because we I

[01:14:46] think that we become a little bit more

[01:14:47] exacting about um about our boundaries

[01:14:50] at that time because of our sensitivity

[01:14:54] to social related threats at that time.

[01:14:56] But no, I've never heard that before.

[01:14:58] >> An interesting one. But no, I I I think

[01:15:01] uh this injection of women into the

[01:15:03] workforce uh think about it this way.

[01:15:06] You know, you mentioned the menopause

[01:15:07] thing there. There can be a world if a

[01:15:11] woman wants to be sexually active but

[01:15:13] not have kids from the age of whatever

[01:15:16] 14, 15, 16, if she goes on hormonal

[01:15:18] birth control, she can have this sort of

[01:15:22] flattened

[01:15:24] um wave hormonally, a a reduction of her

[01:15:28] authentic self of being able to use the

[01:15:31] uh yes, changeable but also pretty

[01:15:33] insightful uh opportunities that those

[01:15:35] changes in hormones all the way up until

[01:15:37] menopause happened. Brilliant. Like at

[01:15:39] no point in your life really as an adult

[01:15:42] woman did you get to touch the sort of

[01:15:44] full breadth of experience that is

[01:15:47] available to you through this just as

[01:15:49] you then came into land and now all the

[01:15:51] hormones have stopped.

[01:15:52] >> Yeah. No, and and you know what I mean

[01:15:54] honestly you see that with some women

[01:15:57] and and that's the way they like it, you

[01:15:59] know? So I know women who have been on

[01:16:01] birth control forever. They have no

[01:16:03] children, right? And they're getting

[01:16:05] ready to go into menopause. they're just

[01:16:07] stay on birth control until they're in

[01:16:08] their 50s and know that they're never

[01:16:10] going to have to worry about a cycle

[01:16:12] again. And the reason for that is they

[01:16:13] like the predictability of it.

[01:16:15] >> And so I guess it's kind of cool to be

[01:16:17] alive at a time when that's an option,

[01:16:20] right? Because

[01:16:20] >> solution for Yeah.

[01:16:22] >> Right. I mean it's like if that's what

[01:16:23] you want to do then like I said, God

[01:16:25] speed and we know that you can do it

[01:16:26] safely as long as you don't, you know,

[01:16:28] sort of have all these other different

[01:16:29] types of contraindications. And so if

[01:16:31] that's kind of the way that you want to

[01:16:33] go, then you know, you can

[01:16:35] >> in that way. Would being on birth

[01:16:37] control

[01:16:39] make uh I was going to I was going to

[01:16:41] try and say something along the lines of

[01:16:42] birth control is kind of like a

[01:16:44] performance-enhancing drug for women

[01:16:45] that want to be in the workforce 28 days

[01:16:47] a month that it it is reducing the ways

[01:16:51] but the problem is it's not necessarily

[01:16:53] just reducing it's just shifting you

[01:16:54] permanently into the second one. Um, so

[01:16:57] yeah, maybe you're more predictable

[01:16:59] across the month, but it's not allowing

[01:17:01] you to have that, you know, hard

[01:17:03] charging gusto that you might do during

[01:17:05] the first two weeks. So, you don't

[01:17:08] actually it's not actually a performance

[01:17:09] enhancer in that regard, I don't guess.

[01:17:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's well, it's

[01:17:13] interesting because you also I mean in

[01:17:14] addition to the things that we talked

[01:17:15] about with estrogen just in terms of

[01:17:17] making you sexy and you smell good and

[01:17:18] you walk sexy and the whole thing is it

[01:17:21] also um it acts like miracle grow in the

[01:17:23] brain and we kind of talked about this

[01:17:24] with sensory thresholds and being able

[01:17:26] to sniff out a good mate. Um but you

[01:17:28] also get it um in other areas of the

[01:17:30] brain that are related to learning and

[01:17:31] memory. And um and so one could argue

[01:17:34] that you're also then if you're just you

[01:17:36] know flatlining your hormones with pill,

[01:17:38] they also then lose out on the nice

[01:17:40] benefits to learning and memory that you

[01:17:42] can get um near high fertility as

[01:17:44] estrogen you know causes the sprouting

[01:17:46] of these beautiful dendritic spines on

[01:17:49] our neurons.

[01:17:50] >> There's a big denial of sex differences

[01:17:53] happening at the moment uh in many

[01:17:55] versions. Um but certainly one of them

[01:17:58] is coming from women uh specifically

[01:18:01] typically women on the left that women

[01:18:03] are just the same as men uh but somehow

[01:18:05] better like they're the same as men but

[01:18:07] just better in some ways too. Yeah.

[01:18:09] >> Is this a self-defeating approach given

[01:18:12] what you're looking at now?

[01:18:13] >> 100%. I mean look it's we've all been

[01:18:16] led to believe anybody who believes that

[01:18:18] you know women should be in the

[01:18:19] workforce and you know and all this sort

[01:18:21] of thing which I 100% do. I obviously am

[01:18:22] in the workforce. I've been a scientist

[01:18:24] for the last 20 years. Um, so, you know,

[01:18:27] I obviously am a champion of women being

[01:18:30] able to hold down positions um of of

[01:18:33] authority. Um, but we've all been led to

[01:18:37] believe that sort of the path to our

[01:18:40] freedom, right, from the quote unquote

[01:18:42] patriarchy, which is its own thing,

[01:18:44] because the patriarchy a lot of times is

[01:18:45] women. It's other women, but

[01:18:47] >> it's not being enforced by men. It's

[01:18:48] logically.

[01:18:49] >> Yeah. No. Yeah. No, it's usually

[01:18:50] enforced by other women. So, that's a

[01:18:52] that's a that's a different podcast for

[01:18:54] a different day. Um, is about the

[01:18:56] patriarchy. But, um, but you know, we

[01:18:57] we've all been led to believe that the

[01:18:59] path to liberation is to deny that

[01:19:00] biological sex matters and that, you

[01:19:02] know, that hormones don't matter and

[01:19:04] that biological sex doesn't matter and

[01:19:05] that we're just the same. But the fact

[01:19:07] is when we deny that we're the same,

[01:19:09] then you know we have a bunch of medical

[01:19:12] research that has been tested on men and

[01:19:14] misapplied to women which has led to you

[01:19:16] know eight out of 10 prescription drugs

[01:19:18] are pulled from the market during the

[01:19:20] first year of use because of

[01:19:22] unanticipated side effects in women

[01:19:24] because we're not being tested enough.

[01:19:25] When when researchers actually include

[01:19:28] women as subjects in research in only

[01:19:30] about 20% of studies, this was a

[01:19:32] neuroscience uh review that was just

[01:19:35] done. when they include both men and

[01:19:37] women, only about 20% of the studies

[01:19:38] actually study them separately. They

[01:19:41] actually test for sex differences. The

[01:19:43] rest just lump males and females

[01:19:44] together and just assume that that

[01:19:47] they're going to be the same. And

[01:19:48] they're not. And of course, you know,

[01:19:49] and we know this because like when you

[01:19:51] look at the risk of like depression, for

[01:19:53] example, you know, the rates of

[01:19:55] depression are twice in women what what

[01:19:57] it is in men and then things like, you

[01:19:59] know, autism spectrum disorder is like

[01:20:01] twice in men what it is in women. And

[01:20:03] the idea that we can be studying things

[01:20:05] like depression and autis autism

[01:20:08] spectrum disorder in men and women

[01:20:10] together and not even looking for sex

[01:20:11] differences is completely absurd. And so

[01:20:14] no, I mean it's it's it's not the path

[01:20:16] to enlightenment. And instead it just

[01:20:18] really puts women at risk of everything

[01:20:20] ranging from, you know, side effects

[01:20:22] from medication to, you know, we just

[01:20:24] learned that seat belts were designed

[01:20:26] with a male in mind and they don't

[01:20:27] protect female bodies the same way that

[01:20:29] they protect male bodies. And so now

[01:20:32] there's a cry to put, you know, um, seat

[01:20:36] belts in place that are good are equally

[01:20:38] as good at protecting a female body as a

[01:20:40] male body.

[01:20:41] >> The reason

[01:20:42] >> Yeah. the reason seat belts that's

[01:20:45] needed. No, but like I mean even like

[01:20:49] the reasonable person standard in law

[01:20:51] and I'm sure that David Bus has talked

[01:20:53] with you about this if you've had

[01:20:54] conversations with him, but you know in

[01:20:56] the world of the law, there's this

[01:20:58] reasonable person standard for things

[01:21:00] like um for example sexual assault or or

[01:21:03] um sexual harassment and sexual

[01:21:05] harassment in particular. And the idea

[01:21:07] is would a reasonable person find this

[01:21:10] act harassing? Right? But the reasonable

[01:21:13] person that's used in the mind of the

[01:21:15] law is a reasonable man. And women and

[01:21:18] men see things differently when it comes

[01:21:19] to when it comes to whether or not

[01:21:21] something constitutes sexual harassment.

[01:21:23] So it's like all of these, you know,

[01:21:24] things where we just like try to pretend

[01:21:26] that biological sex doesn't matter. It

[01:21:28] usually ends up coming and biting women

[01:21:30] in the ass. And so I think that the

[01:21:32] thing that we need to do is really

[01:21:33] recognize sex matters, hormones matter,

[01:21:37] and that that the fact that they matter

[01:21:39] doesn't mean that, you know, one is

[01:21:41] necessarily better than the other. It

[01:21:42] just means that they're different. And I

[01:21:44] think that if we start with that as a

[01:21:45] starting point, it will actually get us

[01:21:47] a whole lot farther than where we are

[01:21:48] currently.

[01:21:49] >> Is modern feminism ignoring or

[01:21:52] overlooking biology by ignoring the

[01:21:54] cycle?

[01:21:55] >> I mean, I think that there's certain

[01:21:57] elements of it, right? Because I I feel

[01:21:58] like there's like a new new feminism,

[01:22:00] right?

[01:22:02] maternal feminists of the world,

[01:22:04] >> which is like, hey, you know what? Men

[01:22:06] and women are different, and that

[01:22:07] doesn't mean that we need to, you know,

[01:22:09] that one is better than the other, but

[01:22:11] there are differences. And um and it's

[01:22:13] okay. For example, if you're a woman and

[01:22:15] you want to stay home with your kids,

[01:22:16] like that's okay, right? Like whereas

[01:22:18] the old school feminism was like women

[01:22:20] and men are the same. And if you are a

[01:22:23] woman and you want to do any of these,

[01:22:25] you know, quote unquote stereotypically

[01:22:27] female things, it means that you somehow

[01:22:28] failed, right? or have been brainwashed

[01:22:30] by the patriarchy. Um, and and I do

[01:22:33] think that like true feminism is just

[01:22:35] embracing, you know, the idea that yes,

[01:22:38] biologically sex does matter. Um, but

[01:22:41] that doesn't need to be limiting, right?

[01:22:42] So sex is it matters, but it doesn't

[01:22:44] need to be defining. It doesn't need to

[01:22:46] be prescriptive. you know even you know

[01:22:48] gender is something that I think matters

[01:22:51] and and but it's different than sex you

[01:22:53] know and and and yeah

[01:22:56] >> there was a study that was done a set of

[01:23:01] research that you would have come across

[01:23:02] which was uh women female hunter

[01:23:07] gatherers did just as much big game

[01:23:08] hunting as men did and it was a

[01:23:10] reassessment of some old data that had

[01:23:13] already existed and this particular

[01:23:16] group decided that they were going to

[01:23:19] look at hunter gatherer data around how

[01:23:22] much women contributed to big game

[01:23:23] hunting and with their assessment of the

[01:23:26] data they did just as much and in some

[01:23:28] cases even more. And I always I always

[01:23:31] thought about this and I thought it was

[01:23:32] it was so interesting and it is similar

[01:23:36] to a lot of the denials of sex

[01:23:38] differences that we see in the modern

[01:23:40] world as well. uh and I came up with

[01:23:42] this name the soft bigotry of male

[01:23:43] expectations

[01:23:45] which is there is this assumption

[01:23:48] among sort of high-powered modern women

[01:23:51] especially sort of the of the boss [ __ ]

[01:23:54] type that whatever men do or can do or

[01:23:59] tend to do is the desirable thing or the

[01:24:03] um the set point and that women are

[01:24:05] somehow when you actually think about

[01:24:06] the subtext of what they're saying

[01:24:08] deficient by not doing that that it is

[01:24:11] desirable to do what the men did and the

[01:24:13] fact that we don't needs to be addressed

[01:24:15] so that women can do what the men did,

[01:24:17] not the other way round that what the

[01:24:19] women do is in some way superior. So for

[01:24:22] instance, this study that was done, they

[01:24:24] [ __ ] with the data for a very long

[01:24:26] time. It was one uh incident or one

[01:24:30] level, one contribution to a big game

[01:24:32] hunt was you are a big game hunter. It

[01:24:34] didn't account for the number of times

[01:24:36] that this happened. So men would go out

[01:24:38] on the hunt a lot. women would have gone

[01:24:40] out once and that would have been one

[01:24:41] for one. Uh also the size of the hunt

[01:24:44] and the size of the animal that was

[01:24:45] brought down wasn't brought into

[01:24:46] account. The total amount of calories

[01:24:48] that were expanded, whether it was done

[01:24:49] with small ra like women were typically

[01:24:52] getting small rabbits doing the

[01:24:53] gathering, men were still doing the

[01:24:55] hunter. It was there was a lot of

[01:24:56] [ __ ] that went on and it just made me

[01:24:58] think like who's to say that gathering

[01:25:01] the berries is less important than

[01:25:04] killing the wilderbeast. And it's this

[01:25:06] very strange kind of

[01:25:08] like sex seepuku reverse sexism, but the

[01:25:13] calls coming from inside of the house.

[01:25:15] It's like you're doing this to yourself.

[01:25:17] Like you're dergating your own sex's

[01:25:19] innate tendency. And it's the same thing

[01:25:21] with the well you I mean it's you've

[01:25:23] been conned by the patriarchy into being

[01:25:25] a domestic servant then. It's like

[01:25:27] that's called being a mother. And and I

[01:25:29] quite like doing that thing for some

[01:25:31] women. But no, because men tend to go

[01:25:34] out and tend to work, it's seen that

[01:25:35] that is the sort of desirable uh thing

[01:25:38] to go toward. And it's just a a real

[01:25:40] interesting time where I can see why

[01:25:43] this would make it quite unpopular to

[01:25:45] talk about well women have these phases

[01:25:47] and women change because again the soft

[01:25:50] bigotry of male expectations. Men don't

[01:25:52] have these changes across the month.

[01:25:53] Maybe women maybe it's actually

[01:25:55] desirable for women to be on the pill so

[01:25:56] that they can be more predictable. they

[01:25:58] can flatten out that hormonal change and

[01:25:59] that means that they don't need to ride

[01:26:00] the wave. And uh I hope that changes. I

[01:26:04] think it's denying uh it's first off

[01:26:07] it's making women like insufficient and

[01:26:09] inferior just by the narrative. Like

[01:26:12] it's not exactly helping women to feel

[01:26:14] like oh I am a whole person. It's like

[01:26:16] oh I'm like a broken man whilst also

[01:26:19] being told in culture that I'm men but

[01:26:21] better. Um like square that circle for

[01:26:24] me. Uh yeah, it's just a real

[01:26:26] interesting thing and I I I don't think

[01:26:27] that it's particularly good.

[01:26:29] >> Yeah. No, I agree. And and you said it

[01:26:31] well. I mean, it's like we talked about

[01:26:32] with the hormones, right? It's this idea

[01:26:34] that having one primary sex hormone is

[01:26:36] the right way to be, right? And that

[01:26:38] there's something wrong with the fact

[01:26:39] that our cycle and that that's something

[01:26:41] that we need to be afraid of. And it all

[01:26:43] just assumes, as you said, that the that

[01:26:45] male is equals superior and that female

[01:26:49] equals Yeah. Yeah. And that female

[01:26:51] equals broken. And so part of the the

[01:26:53] book is really trying to change that

[01:26:54] narrative and and and say like this is

[01:26:57] this is what it means to be us. And I

[01:26:59] also spend a lot of time talking about

[01:27:00] why that's not a dangerous idea, you

[01:27:03] know, and and that that there is, you

[01:27:05] know, we need to we need to change the

[01:27:07] narrative around what it means to have

[01:27:08] cycling hormones because it's not

[01:27:11] lesser, right? And as I said before,

[01:27:13] there is very much you could make the

[01:27:14] case that it's better, you know? It's

[01:27:16] it's just like nobody even thought to

[01:27:18] make that case cuz everybody's just

[01:27:19] assumed that the male way of being is

[01:27:21] the way to be.

[01:27:22] >> It's time to stop that.

[01:27:26] >> Why

[01:27:28] or why is this area so

[01:27:32] underststudied? Like what is it? How why

[01:27:34] did you have to do all this research? It

[01:27:36] seems to me like given that pretty much

[01:27:38] every woman every female at some point

[01:27:40] will even if they start taking the pill

[01:27:42] after their first period, they've gone

[01:27:43] through one of them, right? to alert

[01:27:44] them, oh, hey, by the way, you've hit

[01:27:46] puberty. Um,

[01:27:50] why why you why why is this why does

[01:27:52] this not already exist?

[01:27:55] >> Right. Well, I mean, honestly, it a lot

[01:27:57] of it has to do with the history of

[01:27:58] science. And I'm not going to like give

[01:28:00] you a big long boring history lesson,

[01:28:02] but I'll say that, you know, when when

[01:28:04] science started as in in in medicine,

[01:28:06] you know, sort of in tandem. Um, the

[01:28:09] assumption was that, you know, the

[01:28:11] female body and the male body are

[01:28:13] essentially indistinguishable from one

[01:28:15] another minus the reproductive organs,

[01:28:17] right? So, it's this idea of like, you

[01:28:19] know, bikini medicine, right? This idea

[01:28:21] that everything else is the same except

[01:28:23] for boobs and and, you know, penises and

[01:28:25] vaginas, but then all the rest is the

[01:28:27] same.

[01:28:27] >> Okay? And um and so in science then you

[01:28:30] know researchers for a long time just

[01:28:32] studied men and it was easier to study

[01:28:34] men. They didn't have to worry about

[01:28:36] whether a man was pregnant. So you

[01:28:37] wouldn't have to worry if he was

[01:28:38] carrying you know a baby that could be

[01:28:40] affected by whatever the experiment was.

[01:28:42] And also because men don't cycle it

[01:28:44] meant that any man that you came you

[01:28:46] know had come in on a given day and you

[01:28:48] give him a drug and then if you have a

[01:28:50] different man come in on a different day

[01:28:51] that they're going to be more or less

[01:28:53] the same. Whereas, if you have two women

[01:28:55] come in, right, one might be in the

[01:28:56] first two weeks in her cycle, the other

[01:28:58] one might be in the second two weeks of

[01:28:59] her cycle, and God only knows what would

[01:29:00] happen next, right? They'd be they might

[01:29:02] be different from one another. So,

[01:29:04] everybody assumed, all right, women are

[01:29:06] just smaller, you know, smaller men with

[01:29:08] boobs, and so we'll just study men and

[01:29:11] then we'll apply what we learn to women.

[01:29:13] And um and of course you know that

[01:29:15] created some problems um and and it also

[01:29:18] created um not only problems in terms of

[01:29:20] you know research results not mapping on

[01:29:22] to women um it created political

[01:29:25] problems where people were saying you

[01:29:26] know we need to like women need to be in

[01:29:29] research. So researchers are like oh

[01:29:31] yeah you know yeah like we're you know

[01:29:33] we're feminists we want to include women

[01:29:34] in research so let's do that. And so

[01:29:37] rather than studying women like women,

[01:29:41] um, which would mean studying the fact

[01:29:43] that our hormones change and that as our

[01:29:45] hormones change that we change, what

[01:29:48] researchers decided to do is to try to

[01:29:50] fit female subjects into a way of doing

[01:29:53] science that was built around men,

[01:29:55] right? And so rather than including

[01:29:58] women as research subjects both in the

[01:30:00] follicular phase when estrogen is the

[01:30:02] dominant hormone and then also studying

[01:30:04] them later in the uh progesterrogenic in

[01:30:07] the in the lud in the ludal phase when

[01:30:09] progesterone is the dominant hormone.

[01:30:11] Instead researchers only study women um

[01:30:14] generally in biomedical research during

[01:30:16] the first nine days of the menstrual

[01:30:18] cycle when hormone levels are low. And

[01:30:20] so they only study women when hormones

[01:30:22] are low to make sure that women are

[01:30:24] maximally like men. All right? And when

[01:30:27] they study female mice, they overrect

[01:30:29] them. So they actually take out their

[01:30:31] ovaries so they won't produce hormones.

[01:30:34] So here scientists are patting

[01:30:36] themselves on the back for final look.

[01:30:38] We're including women and female

[01:30:39] subjects in research, right? But they're

[01:30:42] essentially removing our hormones from

[01:30:44] the research. And the result of that, I

[01:30:46] mean, and and so it's like we've

[01:30:48] downplayed hormonal influence on

[01:30:51] behavior for political reasons, right?

[01:30:53] For the reasons that we talked about, we

[01:30:54] just assume that men are superior and

[01:30:57] therefore, you know, if you cycle and

[01:30:59] have cycling hormones, there must be

[01:31:00] something wrong with that because it's,

[01:31:01] you know, it's not male, right? And so

[01:31:03] there's that. And then it just made

[01:31:06] things easier for scientists to assume

[01:31:07] that men and women are essentially the

[01:31:09] same. And so, you know, me since women

[01:31:11] are just men with some lady hormones,

[01:31:14] let's just statistically control for

[01:31:16] those lady hormones. So, that way

[01:31:18] everybody in our research study acts the

[01:31:20] same way.

[01:31:21] >> And so, the result of this is is that

[01:31:22] like we've had this mass, you know,

[01:31:25] delusion into believing that our

[01:31:27] hormones don't matter, right? And that

[01:31:29] they're not an integral part of who we

[01:31:30] are. And I mean, and the result of it is

[01:31:32] like women have been absolutely

[01:31:34] mismanaged in science and then also in

[01:31:36] medicine. It's like when when we're

[01:31:38] included at all as research subjects,

[01:31:40] it's either with our ovaries taken out

[01:31:42] if we're a female mouse or um or in the

[01:31:45] first couple of days of the menstrual

[01:31:47] cycle when hormone levels are low. So,

[01:31:48] we know very little about how women

[01:31:51] respond to anything during the second

[01:31:53] half of the menstrual cycle. And it's

[01:31:55] completely ridiculous because when you

[01:31:57] look at, and I've got a whole chapter on

[01:31:58] this in the book, when you look at the

[01:32:00] full cascade of changes that happen

[01:32:01] physiologically to the female body in

[01:32:03] the second half of the cycle, there's

[01:32:05] every reason to believe that everything

[01:32:07] ranging from, you know, to our responses

[01:32:09] to anesthesia, to our responses to

[01:32:12] surgery, to our responses to

[01:32:13] prescription drugs are going to be a

[01:32:15] little bit different in the last two

[01:32:16] weeks than they are in the first two

[01:32:17] weeks. And instead of studying it,

[01:32:19] researchers decided to ignore it. And so

[01:32:22] I guess that the short answer is

[01:32:23] convenience.

[01:32:25] >> What are the implications of this for

[01:32:27] women? What would you say to someone

[01:32:29] who's just had their mind blown about

[01:32:30] the way that their own hormones work?

[01:32:33] How should they show up in a different

[01:32:34] way to be more effective? I mean

[01:32:36] honestly I think that the first thing

[01:32:38] that they need to do is just get a

[01:32:39] better uh grasp of their own personal

[01:32:42] relationship to their hormonal changes

[01:32:44] because everybody you know even though

[01:32:46] the average response for example to the

[01:32:48] peak in estrogen that women experience

[01:32:50] near high fertility is to feel really

[01:32:52] good and have high energy and high

[01:32:54] sexual desire um there is about 8 to 10%

[01:32:56] of the population that feels terrible at

[01:32:59] that time and that's actually when they

[01:33:00] feel their worst. Um, and so if you're

[01:33:02] one of those women, and and nobody knows

[01:33:04] why, by the way. It's just it's it's

[01:33:05] interesting. There's a lot of

[01:33:06] idiosyncrasy in the way that we respond

[01:33:08] to our hormones. Um, and so just to

[01:33:10] start tracking your cycle and how you're

[01:33:12] feeling on things that are important to

[01:33:13] you. So things like energy level, sexual

[01:33:15] desire, just how good you feel about

[01:33:17] yourself, your appetite, your sleep,

[01:33:19] etc. Track tracking that over the course

[01:33:21] of a couple of cycles to start to

[01:33:22] understand your relationship with your

[01:33:24] hormones. And then being able to um and

[01:33:27] and you can use this with

[01:33:28] recommendations I make in the book

[01:33:29] because I talk about how our needs shift

[01:33:31] from one phase of the cycle to the

[01:33:33] other. And I do make some

[01:33:34] recommendations about things that you

[01:33:35] can do to try to if you're having, for

[01:33:37] example, low energy in the second half

[01:33:40] of the cycle. Some of the things that

[01:33:41] research supports can be really

[01:33:42] supportive in terms of maintaining um

[01:33:45] high energy levels during that time or

[01:33:47] the changes in sexual desire and so on

[01:33:49] and so forth. And so just like really

[01:33:51] getting dialed in with what your own

[01:33:53] body's relationship is with your

[01:33:55] hormonal changes so that way a you

[01:33:58] better understand yourself. Um b you can

[01:34:00] better communicate about what's going on

[01:34:02] with you with people who are important

[01:34:03] to you. And then lastly so that way you

[01:34:05] can take any steps necessary to make

[01:34:07] that transition more like sort of riding

[01:34:10] a wave instead of falling off a cliff.

[01:34:13] >> So good. I I'm going to be fascinated to

[01:34:15] see what happens with hormonal birth

[01:34:17] control use over the next decade or so.

[01:34:20] You know, how much of the research that

[01:34:22] you highlighted is going to be

[01:34:24] replicated and become even more popular.

[01:34:26] And I guess that means that this stuff

[01:34:31] is going to become ever more important

[01:34:34] because more women are going to be at

[01:34:36] the mercy of those monthly swings.

[01:34:39] >> Yeah. You know, it's funny because one

[01:34:41] of the things that really inspired me to

[01:34:43] write this book is is one, I'd been

[01:34:44] chewing on this question for a really

[01:34:46] long time just as a biologist. It's it's

[01:34:48] a really interesting question to ask

[01:34:50] why, you know, women should feel

[01:34:51] terrible half the time. But also, one of

[01:34:54] the things that I heard a lot from women

[01:34:55] who read my first book and decided that

[01:34:57] they were going to begin naturally

[01:34:59] cycling and living that way instead of

[01:35:01] on the pill is that they absolutely

[01:35:03] loved how they felt during the first

[01:35:05] half of the cycle when estrogen was

[01:35:06] high, but then during the second half of

[01:35:08] the cycle, they were feeling a little

[01:35:10] bit lost in the woods, right? And they

[01:35:12] were feeling like they fell off a cliff

[01:35:13] and that they couldn't understand like

[01:35:15] what, you know, what am I feeling now?

[01:35:16] Is this normal? Um, and so I, you know,

[01:35:19] the hope is that this book will help,

[01:35:21] uh, women have a guide book to the

[01:35:23] second half of the cycle because it just

[01:35:24] isn't something that's generally

[01:35:25] provided, um, either, you know, in the

[01:35:28] cultural conversation, right? Like if we

[01:35:30] if you and I go on TikTok and look at

[01:35:32] all the videos about hormones, it's all

[01:35:33] about estrogen. You know, it's like

[01:35:35] we've heard like we know so much about

[01:35:36] estrogen, estrogen this, estrogen that.

[01:35:38] And so this is really trying to provide

[01:35:40] that blueprint and that guide book to

[01:35:42] the second half of the cycle. Um, so

[01:35:44] that way women can have a like a really

[01:35:45] great like full 28 days of the cycle

[01:35:47] instead of just the first 14.

[01:35:50] >> Awesome. Dr. Sarah Hill, ladies and

[01:35:51] gentlemen. Sarah, where should people

[01:35:52] go? They're going to want to check out

[01:35:53] all of your stuff online.

[01:35:55] >> Um, my website is uh sarahehill.com and

[01:35:58] that's Sarah with an H as it always

[01:36:00] should be. Sorry, Sarah with an A. Um,

[01:36:03] and then Sarah Ehillphd um on all

[01:36:06] platforms. I'm most active on Instagram.

[01:36:09] >> Heck yeah. Sarah, I appreciate you.

[01:36:10] until the next time that you come and

[01:36:12] upend everybody's world with some more

[01:36:14] research.

[01:36:16] >> Thanks, Chris.

[01:36:17] >> Congratulations. You made it to the end

[01:36:19] of the episode. And if you want more,

[01:36:21] well, why don't you press right here?

[01:36:25] Come on.