# The SHOCKING Truth About DMT Nobody Talks About

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCDntV81Q8A

[00:00] For anyone that hasn't experienced DMT, how would you describe the experience?
[00:03] I know that's going to be hard to do cuz of some of my friends have done it and when you ask them to describe it, it seems to be quite abstract.
[00:11] Yeah, it's like if you if we had some two-dimensional creatures that were living on this piece of paper right here on the table and one of those creatures figured out that he can smoke some DMT and that somehow enabled us to peel this two-dimensional creature to where it could see in three dimensions and see everything in this room.
[00:32] That's the DMT.
[00:34] You're getting peeled out of reality into some other realm.
[00:39] And the the weird thing is every scientist that I know that's studying DMT not one of them thinks it's a hallucination.
[00:46] What do they think it is?
[00:48] I think the the more someone the more familiar someone is with DMT, the less certain they are about what the hell's going on.
[00:55] But everyone everyone literally everyone who uses DMT pretty much goes to the same exact places.
[01:01] And they all meet the same entities, the same seven or eight different types of entities and it's been the same for 4,500 years of of recorded history with DMT.
[01:10] And DMT is something we make in our own body.
[01:12] It's it's an endogenous chemical.
[01:15] Has it changed your perception of what reality really is?
[01:17] 100%.
[01:17] Yeah.
[01:17] It's so much more real than this reality.
[01:23] It's like it's it's so ineffable.
[01:27] There are no words that that can describe it.
[01:32] But it's a thousand maybe a million times more real than this in such a way that just coming back to this feels like everything is kind of claymation for a little while.
[01:43] Claymation?
[01:43] Or just fake like a cartoon uh of some kind.
[01:47] It's just really low resolution.
[01:50] And it I I come back with no certainty about anything.
[01:54] And I think everybody comes back with that lack of certainty.
[01:57] You're not coming back and be like, I saw this exact thing and here's what it means and here's how the universe is
[02:01] created and and all of that.
[02:04] But you go up there and you come back and you're like, something about this plane doesn't feel real anymore.
[02:10] And that is a permanent shift that's hard for some people to make.
[02:12] And you can't unsee that you were kind of able to poke your head out of the out of the side door of the Truman Show and and look out backstage for a little while.
[02:25] So has it made you believe that this isn't real?
[02:28] This reality that we're living in now is not real.
[02:32] We'd have to define real.
[02:37] Um the only How would you define real?
[02:39] Yeah, that's a good question.
[02:39] So that's my point.
[02:41] you can touch it, you can measure it, you can taste it, smell it.
[02:44] Would that be real?
[02:45] Do you think we're living in a simulation?
[02:48] Then we'd have to define simulation.
[02:50] Because I think every society has this hubris of the universe is whatever's cool to us right now.
[02:55] Electricity came out, the universe was energy.
[02:58] Industrial revolution came out, the whole universe
[03:02] was a giant machine.
[03:03] And right now everybody says, oh, we we just discovered computers, the universe must be a computer.
[03:10] It's like that the hubris of of every generation.
[03:13] What I mean by simulation, I I think like is it rendered in some way by something?
[03:19] Uh I I I study this stuff all day every day of my life.
[03:25] And I think that the more we the more discoveries we have in particle physics and quantum mechanics, the more they're proving the hermetic principles right.
[03:35] What's that? These are the seven ancient principles of this guy named Hermes Trismegistus, also known as Thoth, like an an Egyptian guy.
[03:45] They're confused about his name.
[03:47] But he's like uh he wrote these like these first two principles are the most important.
[03:52] The first one is all is mind.
[03:56] The all is mind. The universe is mental.
[03:59] And then the second one is as above, so below.
[04:02] And here's how I explained this to my son a couple of days ago.
[04:06] I said, "Have you ever had a dream where there's like a building in the dream?
[04:10] Maybe there's a house in front of you.
[04:13] "And what are you looking at the house with?"
[04:17] And he said, "Well, my eyes."
[04:17] I said, "Why?"
[04:19] "Which eyes are they?"
[04:20] "Are they your eyes that you're seeing the house with?"
[04:23] And he said, "No, cuz you're imagining your own set of eyes to see the house with in your dream.
[04:27] Your eyes don't aren't there.
[04:29] Your body isn't there.
[04:31] So, you're imagining the whole body and the world."
[04:33] And I said, "What's the distance between you and that house in your dream?"
[04:37] He said, "30 ft."
[04:38] I said, "What is the air made out of between you and the house?"
[04:42] And he said, "Air."
[04:43] And I said, "You have air in your dreams? Is it real air?"
[04:45] He said, "No, it's just it's my brain."
[04:49] I said, "So, is there distance between you and the house?"
[04:50] He said, "No."
[04:52] "What's the house made out of? Me.
[04:54] What's the air made out of? Me."
[04:57] The entire thing is me.
[04:58] The ground I'm standing on, the house, the the clouds in the sky.
[05:01] So, in a dream,
[05:04] you can verifiably prove that something is real.
[05:07] You can test it, you can touch it, and all that, and the perception of it is is very much real.
[05:14] So, the theory now, and I don't I don't have any certainty about this, but one interesting theory that I've heard from many different neuroscientists is that if we look at as above, so below, like a universe spins like a DNA double helix.
[05:25] You can zoom in on a human eyeball, and it looks the same as a nebula.
[05:33] What if dreams are this level level one, and this is like level two of that?
[05:40] Where we're hallucinating distance.
[05:42] We're hallucinating and I think whatever the case is, I have no idea.
[05:46] I have no theories about it myself.
[05:49] But whatever the case is, I do think that separation is the greatest lie ever told to the entire world.
[05:57] Of like the you are separate from that person.
[05:59] Like this you are separate from this.
[06:02] And how people say I need to go spend time in nature.
[06:04] Like you are nature.
[06:07] Like that's that's part of who you are.
[06:08] You're made out of that stuff.
[06:10] You're made out of that dirt.
[06:13] So I think the illusion of separation is the one thing that I think will help a lot of people.
[06:17] And that's why psychedelics can really just rewire somebody's brain so so fast.
[06:23] It just deletes that separation.
[06:28] Feel like I just did had some DMT.
[06:31] I'm cuz you said, you know, level one is dreams, level two is maybe this reality.
[06:35] So the question in my mind was what's level three?
[06:39] Yeah, and that would maybe be what you see on DMT.
[06:43] You said that world was more real than this one.
[06:46] Oh yeah, exponentially, immeasurably.
[06:50] Why? How How do you quantify realness?
[06:52] Like what's this the measuring stick there?
[06:58] There it there are no words for it.
[07:01] Has this changed your view on religion?
[07:04] Yeah.
[07:05] How has it changed your view?
[07:06] I wasn't really a religious person.
[07:07] I think it
[07:08] made me a much more spiritual person.
[07:11] And I think before any psychedelic therapy that I went through, I was I was performing spirituality.
[07:19] So spirituality was kind of something I I did to show people.
[07:23] Yeah, about you about you to signal virtue.
[07:25] And now spirituality, you kind of see it like it's not a big deal.
[07:30] It doesn't you don't have to go buy linen yoga pants and and wooden beads and bathe in essential oils to be spiritual.
[07:37] Like you can just maybe have a hand up there and be less certain.
[07:42] I think the certainty is the is the enemy.
[07:45] Like we haven't been here very long.
[07:47] We're very very newborn creatures on this planet.
[07:49] Has it made you more empathetic?
[07:51] Unbelievably so.
[07:56] At the end of the day, it everybody wants to.
[08:01] Like after your first or second time going to psychedelic therapy, you're like, "Oh, I need to understand the secrets of the universe now."
[08:08] Which you go in there with this like
[08:09] very egoic uh egocentric uh desires.
[08:14] And then they're like, "Okay, you want to understand the universe."
[08:17] They'll show it all to you and your brain's not capable of understanding it, remembering it, or translating it once you once you come back anyway.
[08:25] And I think over time you learn that the more ego I have, it's like I'm performing.
[08:31] And then every time I go back in there or every time like I kind of reflect on that experience, it helps me to unzip this my little ego costume uh a little bit more.
[08:43] Did you know that you can get banned from DMT?
[08:46] Really? Dude, you got to look this up.
[08:49] There are thousands of people out there who are using DMT recreationally and the beings up there basically told them
[08:58] "You are done and you're you're banned from from DMT."
[09:00] And the journey stops right there in that moment and the guy can take hit after hit after hit after hit of DMT and nothing happens.
[09:10] You can be banned from that realm or whatever it is.
[09:13] I think they call it hyperspace now.
[09:16] In the culture culture surrounding DMT, there is a widely reported anecdote phenomenon called being locked out of hyperspace.
[09:24] Many frequent users report reaching a point where the drug simply stops working as expected regardless of the dose.
[09:31] The common descriptions include the waiting room wall, getting stuck in the initial onset phase, and being unable to break through.
[09:36] The grave room, seeing only flat, colorless, or dull visuals instead of the visual vibrant geometry.
[09:42] The hyper slap, a terrifying or deeply uncomfortable experience where entities appear to tell you that you aren't welcome or shouldn't be here anymore.
[09:53] The sudden blackout, smoking the substance and simply falling asleep or remembering nothing, effectively being denied entry.
[10:02] Hmm.
[10:03] I think there's 8,000 of people.
[10:06] One of the very, very random but persuasive thought experiments I
[10:11] sometimes um use to explain why I've started to believe that there's probably something more.
[10:18] is weirdly how much I've learned about the gut microbiome.
[10:22] And it sounds like a strange thing.
[10:23] And like not a connection one would expect to make.
[10:25] But when I sat here with these experts and they're like, "Oh, by the way, there's 38 trillion living organisms in your gut right now."
[10:33] I you know, you you're saying like, "What is below is above?"
[10:37] Whatever that phrase was.
[10:39] I was like, "Okay, so those 38 million creatures, I know that you could argue that maybe they're not conscious or whatever you want to say."
[10:44] Yeah.
[10:45] But they have no idea.
[10:48] Like if they were they have no idea that they're living inside another organism.
[10:52] Down there, if they could debate, they would be debating religion.
[10:55] They'd be saying, "Do you think we have a creator?"
[10:57] And they'd look around and they wouldn't see him.
[10:59] But because they don't realize that they're inside I guess their god, like their creator, the thing that's feeding them every day and keeping them alive and that kind of you could argue created them because I
[11:12] create the environment for them to reproduce.
[11:15] And when I thought about that, I thought about the oceans.
[11:16] I was like, the you know, the animals at the very bottom of the deepest ocean have no idea that there's anything above.
[11:20] They have no idea.
[11:22] And then I And then you got to ask yourself, am I like arrogant enough to believe or naive enough to believe that like this is it?
[11:27] That I am at the top of the mountain.
[11:29] nothing.
[11:31] It's so egotistical to think like there isn't there could be nothing above me.
[11:34] And then the other thing that's been really persuasive for me in my journey of like spirituality or religion or whatever you want to call it is I did a bunch of star talks and generally getting interested in the stars and sitting there with a star expert and him saying to me at night time in Joshua Tree, "Look over there."
[11:48] And he'd like get this big binocular out, this 1-m binocular.
[11:52] And he'd say, "What you're seeing there is" he'd say something crazy like 28 million light-years away.
[11:59] I'm looking at a whole other galaxy and it's just this speck and it's 28 million light-years away.
[12:05] I'm scratching my head going like, "What the"
[12:07] That is inconceivably far away and it's just this dot.
[12:09] And he goes, "Yeah, there's
[12:13] like trillions of those.
[12:15] And I'm thinking, "Oh, like the book on microbiome, there's like 38 trillion of those."
[12:18] Yeah.
[12:21] And they're just specks with life on them that we understand at some granular level but maybe not the deepest granular level.
[12:28] So maybe I'm just another gut in the bug of some toddler in some other space.
[12:30] And I just don't know the answer.
[12:33] What do you do with that information?
[12:34] No idea.
[12:37] But the new theory is that this consciousness is external to our body.
[12:42] What does that mean?
[12:43] Like our brains act as a receiver and a filter for consciousness and not a creator of consciousness.
[12:51] So that hypothetically maybe DMT is something that just pops that filter off and allows us to experience full consciousness.
[13:01] Mhm.
[13:01] And then if the all is mind, so if everything in my dream is made up of me and we just copy-paste that up to this level, we're all maybe part of the one mind and there aren't any people.
[13:15] It's just a mind.
[13:17] So like the distance between us doesn't exist.
[13:19] It's just just like a dream except we're sharing a dream up here.
[13:24] And that's one of the I think that's a part of that that new consciousness theory.
[13:27] I don't subscribe to any of them any one of them in particular.
[13:31] You haven't got to believe any of this stuff.
[13:35] Um because it's hard to you're never going to know for sure, but even hearing it makes me feel a lot more empathetic for my fellow being.
[13:45] Yeah.
[13:45] Cuz it makes me you.
[13:47] It makes your enemy you.
[13:47] It makes your friend you.
[13:49] Makes the person you love, hate, whatever.
[13:51] It makes all of them you.
[13:53] And none of us would, I think I think we treat ourselves much better sometimes than we would treat someone a thousand miles away in a different country with a different color skin.
[14:02] Yeah.
[14:02] Um so, that's what I love about this conversation and actually every time I bring myself back to this point about consciousness being one, it does make me more empathetic to things.
[14:11] It does.
[14:13] And it's not because you're a moral person.
[14:16] Mhm.
[14:16] Like you don't have to have morals anymore.
[14:17] So, if I see you as me, Mhm.
[14:21] I'm just protecting myself.
[14:21] Yeah.
[14:23] Like it's just a natural.
[14:25] In the same way I would with my children.
[14:25] Yeah.
[14:28] Or yeah.
[14:29] Yeah.
[14:29] And I mean the the morality doesn't need to exist anymore.
[14:33] It's just the right thing.
[14:35] [snorts]
[14:35] Chase, what is the most important idea we didn't talk about that we should have talked about specifically as it relates to the most important skills people are going to need, whether it's body language or people skills or sales skills, in the world we're heading towards where they're positing that robots are going to take away lots of the manual labor jobs and artificial intelligence is going to take away a lot of the like cognitive work.
[14:57] And we might be rendered left with each other in the real world.
[14:59] Yeah.
[15:01] Number one is making people feel heard and seen and resonating with them when they're heard and not judging them when they're seen.
[15:12] That's the number one because AI
[15:18] you can mark my words, AI will never in a million years serve as a replacement for humans on the social level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs where we have survival, safety, belonging, that that third row of Maslow's pyramid cannot be fulfilled through electronic means as of yet anyway and maybe the they're going to start making sex robots and all that kind of stuff when these these things come out but we cannot fulfill that desire.
[15:50] We cannot fulfill that need.
[15:54] So what's above that?
[15:56] Then we have esteem.
[15:58] Our self-esteem and our our self-actualization.
[16:01] We can never move past level three because we're getting a placebo of connection from Twitter and Tik Tok and all these apps and these pseudo social apps, YouTube.
[16:12] We have these parasocial relationships on YouTube.
[16:17] And it's it cannot fulfill that level.
[16:17] Our
[16:19] brains were not wired to receive digital connection.
[16:24] We have our brains have not developed one more wrinkle in the last 200,000 years.
[16:29] Exactly the same brain.
[16:31] So we're not going to out science uh the lower part of the brain and you can't like meditate your way out of having good relationships and being around 3D people.
[16:40] You you need it in your life.
[16:42] And I genuinely think AI's never going to replace it.
[16:47] I would agree.
[16:51] I think one of the things that's been really persuasive in this regard is I remember in psychology lessons when I was like maybe 16 years old, Mrs. Lownie.
[17:00] I've always missed Mrs. Lownie.
[17:00] Mrs. Lownie, if you're listening, please get in touch.
[17:03] My I shouldn't say my email.
[17:05] Um but just get in touch through Gareth.
[17:08] He knows you know me but I just wanted to say that cuz she she was a great teacher for me in psychology.
[17:10] I really only like two lessons in school, business and psychology.
[17:13] So Mr. Hughes and Mrs. Lownie Lownie's lessons.
[17:17] The others I found a bit tricky.
[17:17] But I thought those two teachers saw something
[17:21] in me.
[17:23] Miss Loundly was talking about the rhesus monkeys experiment where they got these like rhesus monkeys to um either they gave them a fake mother but had that had cloth on it or they gave them a wire mother.
[17:33] So, a mother made out of wires.
[17:38] And they looked at their psychological outcomes over time.
[17:41] I'm probably butchering this, so please community note me, Diver CEO team, so that the facts are on the screen.
[17:45] And what they found is if you want the monkeys that grew to be most psychologically stable and happy and weren't psychopaths were the ones that had a cloth mother.
[17:53] And the the monkeys that became erratic and clearly had deep psychological problems were the ones that just had a wire mother.
[17:59] So, uh that's always reminded me that even in a world of robots or AI or whatever, there's still something irreplaceably human about physical human connection and touch, yeah.
[18:10] Which I actually think is going to become is going to absolutely surge in a world where we do have robots and intelligence and retentive algorithms.
[18:15] I think there's going to be this bifurcation of society where many people flee back to the real world.
[18:21] Yeah.
[18:23] And the two biggest things that we have as a result of all of this is loneliness and division.
[18:27] And the division is manufactured then the loneliness is a byproduct.
[18:32] Is there anything else you wanted to share?
[18:34] Yeah, maybe some good news.
[18:36] That would be shitty.
[18:38] That'd be shitty to stop on that note.
[18:41] Give me some good news.
[18:41] I think one of the the number one thing that people need to know is that if you wrote down the biggest insecurities that you've ever had in your entire life, every crazy crazy thing about how you thought it was a big deal.
[18:54] You have to forget forgive yourself for that you did when you were 12.
[18:58] You have to uh stop doing this.
[19:00] You have to you have to stop hiding yourself from other people.
[19:04] If you just wrote down every one of your insecurities with a hundred people and then had someone type all of them out, all 100 people.
[19:15] You wouldn't be able to find your own.
[19:22] You You'd be very confused.
[19:25] You'd think that someone just paraphrased you 100 times if you're digging through that hat trying to find your insecurities.
[19:32] And it would shock you.
[19:32] Uh and it's one thing to hear it maybe on a podcast, but to see it in real life, if you see the depth of other people, we are so much the same.
[19:45] And all that we hide, cuz we don't want anybody else to see it, everyone else is hiding the exact same stuff.
[19:53] Everybody else is feeling the exact same way.
[19:54] The number one thing that people regret on their deathbed is like, I should have treated it more like a game.
[19:59] I should have figured out what was important in the game and done what was actually important.
[20:05] Uh and that's it.
[20:09] That means a lot to you, doesn't it?
[20:11] That particular point I've I've It's almost like you've changed since the last time we spoke, in a way.
[20:16] Yeah.
[20:16] there's been a bit of an evolution.
[20:18] Yeah.
[20:19] I think that level of empathy is super
[20:23] important to life and it helps slow
[20:24] things down.
[20:26] And no matter what you're going through,
[20:28] you put put make a poster and put this
[20:30] up on your wall.
[20:32] It's supposed to be fun.
[20:34] It's supposed to be a game.
[20:37] And I think Alan Watts had a quote that
[20:39] said, "Most of man's memory comes from
[20:42] taking very seriously what God made for
[20:45] fun."
[20:47] >> [laughter]
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