# THE MOST BAD FAITH DEBATE I'VE EVER HAD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oONEtgbf0Sw

[00:00] Foreign.
[00:02] [Music]
[00:07] This is going to be actually very, very, I think, intense intellectual discussion.
[00:12] We got two people who are both extremely good at debating competing against each other and where they're going to be talking about, well, say the prompt again, Andrew.
[00:18] This was a Christian nationalism against libertarian communism.
[00:23] Uh, all right, so anyway, for anyone who's new to the channel, I'm going to explain what I'm gonna do.
[00:26] I'm modding, so that means that I am not getting involved in debate.
[00:29] Doesn't mean I agree or disagree with someone.
[00:31] I will only get involved under three circumstances.
[00:33] Number one, someone's being interrupted so much that they can't get a word out, and I'm going to use my discretion when it comes to that whether I should or should not.
[00:42] Number two, someone refuses to answer a direct question.
[00:44] And number three, someone is directly in the conversation to such an extent that I feel like it's not relevant to the initial problem.
[00:52] Those are only times I'll get involved.
[00:53] Hopefully I won't even have to talk much during this debate.
[00:54] And debaters will have added so Andrew kindly asked to do seven minute opening statements and I.
[01:00] I think that's fair, so we'll start off with some opening statements.
[01:04] I think Andrew, since you were the initiator, you should do opening statements first.
[01:08] I appreciate Fosh taking the time to have this debate with me, the audience of both Alex PWF and the audience of The Crucible for coming out tonight as we have this debate.
[01:17] The topic tonight is Christian nationalism versus libertarian communism.
[01:20] I understand Vosh likely has many criticisms of Christian nationalism, though I think most of them will be directed at other people's advocation of it rather than my own.
[01:31] To define Christian nationalism simply, it is the operation of a synergy between the church and the state.
[01:36] Such a synergy can be operated either under the confines of the church acting as the state or as the church being a division of it in some way.
[01:46] This could operate as an advisory role, which in many ways it does now anyway, or as a division of the state itself with separate guidelines from that of the secular nation, or it could have similarities to the secular nation.
[01:59] This idea is in no way radical to this.
[02:02] Day there are many nations who operate under these guidelines through religion.
[02:06] Though I would argue with the wrong religion.
[02:08] And historically such Christian nations and Empires withstood the test of time.
[02:13] Though ultimately buckling, some of them lasted well over a thousand years.
[02:20] No current product of any Western nation is going to do that.
[02:22] Remember in the course of this debate that Vosh is at the mercy of the same criticisms he may levy at the idea of Christian nationalism.
[02:28] In many ways he is more at the mercy of his own criticisms than I am.
[02:33] As the examples of Communism we have are less than ideal, and he envisions a radical parting from those systems.
[02:38] Yet historically those systems are all we can point to.
[02:45] Under my own system, however, we can point to nations which have prospered, persevered, and ultimately created mostly happy and healthy populations.
[02:53] A return to patriarchy is the order of the day.
[02:57] The way that we would achieve this is the same way the Communist and feminists achieved their subversive goal.
[03:03] Of their attempted annihilation of Christianity, which is still ongoing.
[03:08] And that key is through the demographic shift via birth rates.
[03:10] The religious have a lot of children; the non-religious don't.
[03:14] The future essentially is ours.
[03:18] My plan for such a system is no different than Vosh's, and execution over the next hundred years.
[03:22] We Christians establish our values into our children and direct them to begin to take over the institutions.
[03:29] This seems like a laughable proposition, except that's exactly what the Marxists and feminists did.
[03:34] It took them about 150 years or so to accomplish it.
[03:39] We can do exactly the same thing.
[03:42] In fact, we can probably do it in about a hundred years.
[03:44] Our job external to that is just to slow the progressive machine down any way we can, until age claims its advocates.
[03:53] Obviously, I have a lot more to say on this topic, and as we get into the debate, just remember that theology informs culture, and culture informs politics.
[04:01] And with that, I'll see the rest of my time over to Vosh, and hopefully we can get.
[04:04] Into this thing cool wash you got seven minutes.
[04:07] You can use as much of that as you want.
[04:08] I've had it, buddy.
[04:09] Gotcha.
[04:10] Yeah.
[04:12] I noted absent of that opening from Andrew was either a description of what the problems are with modern society or how his proposed solutions would fix any of it.
[04:23] The problem that I have is that ultimately it feels like this is always a vibes thing, which is ironically very feminine and not an all uh representation of patriarchal logic.
[04:31] Um, the idea that there's something wrong with society and the best way to address it is to return with a vague just gesturing it well civilization lasted, ignoring the fact of course that Christian civilization and history has been a non-stop pit uh where countries obliterate each other.
[04:48] Uh, ethnic and ideological and linguistic and religious divide shifts constantly, just non-stop war.
[04:55] I mean, if you want to point towards longevity of civilization, I mean go look at China, you know, that's probably the best example we have of real longevity.
[05:00] Uh, Christianity of course not being a primary force in its.
[05:05] Stability except for the extent to which it destabilized it in the 1800s.
[05:09] In truth, what makes a last or does not is a complicated in b not of interest to Andrew.
[05:15] His interest in these subjects, patriarchy, uh, blah blah fight, progressivism, is for entirely separate reasons.
[05:23] In reality, the idea of preserving civilization is altogether kind of a psyop.
[05:24] It's not a real thing.
[05:26] Everything changes.
[05:29] No civilization is as it was 50 or 100 years ago.
[05:33] You can preserve names, I guess.
[05:36] You can point towards official longevity, but none of this really means anything.
[05:40] What matters is how do we build the best life possible for the greatest number of people?
[05:46] Uh, and I think of course the libertarian socialism proposes many excellent solutions when it comes to the problems we have with modern life.
[05:51] Religion does not, uh, religion does not improve anything.
[05:55] It does not fix our problems.
[05:57] It does not make our cities more walkable.
[05:59] It does not address income inequality.
[06:02] It doesn't do anything except give people a feeling, uh, that there is.
[06:07] Meaning where there is none, I think we should construct our own meaning in a willful manner, rather than seeing it entirely to imagined higher forces.
[06:16] All right, open — oh, this is an open segment part, so you guys have added, yeah.
[06:21] So, boss, let's start with your religion doesn't improve anything.
[06:24] And yet, as we look at the happiness indexes of the people who are the most religious, they seem to be the most happy.
[06:28] They're also having the most children.
[06:31] They're also divorcing the least.
[06:33] They seem to, out of all the metrics, have the least amount of mental illness.
[06:35] How could you possibly, with a straight face, make the claim that religion doesn't improve anything?
[06:38] All of your positions are material in nature, and they don't seem to work that well.
[06:43] They're trying to answer greater questions right off the bat.
[06:47] We see the analytical issues first of all, tracking this onto number of babies had.
[06:51] Historically, the most babies humans have had have been during pre-modern medieval periods, where women were pumping out 11 kids, half of them would die in the fields.
[06:56] The number of children you have has nothing to do with how happy you are, likewise with divorces and...
[07:08] Marriages again, we would have to argue then that the happiest marriages must have necessarily been in the ones, uh, in I don't know, England prior to Henry VIII.
[07:16] You would point back to some time where it was illegal to divorce.
[07:19] These aren't real metrics of happiness.
[07:21] People in general are getting less happy, that is absolutely the case.
[07:24] Why not? Yeah, but the religious seem to be less so via self-reporting, and the religious are having the most amount of children, and I have the stats here if you'd like to review them.
[07:31] I can show this to you, and it demonstrates EP research has been following this very closely for a number of years, and their indexes seem to be quite good.
[07:41] And yet your materialist outlook seems to claim that libertarian socialism, materialism will shave you, and yet we're closer to that worldview than ever, and yet mental illness in all these factors which lead to unhappiness is higher than ever.
[07:54] We've only been best of all with the religions.
[07:56] So first of all, as I established, birth rates are irrelevant to this discussion if we're talking about happiness.
[08:01] Second of all, mental illness as well.
[08:03] We've only started tracking mental illness in a meaningful way in the past couple of decades, so this is another factor which...
[08:09] You can't reasonably tie to a lack of religiosity.
[08:11] In fact, if you go to our sane asylums and people with severe mental illness issues, you'll find plenty of people there who are deeply religious.
[08:18] The idea that mental illness tracks perfectly onto, um, or even remotely onto a lack of religiosity, just absolutely not the case.
[08:26] Well, how can you make that claim?
[08:28] That actually makes no sense.
[08:29] You say birth rates can't be tied to happiness, and yet if you have children, you are happier.
[08:33] How is — how — I'm sorry, wait, do you think — could you possibly say that birth rates wouldn't track onto that?
[08:38] Of course they would.
[08:40] Do you think people were like at their happiest in India in like 1880, when the average number of children had by every mother was like eight or nine at the time?
[08:49] I'm asking — this is a red herring, it has nothing to do with answer.
[08:51] Answer the question.
[08:53] If you think — I have no idea.
[08:55] I don't think it's relevant.
[08:57] Okay, I think that birth rates do not track perfectly onto happiness.
[08:59] In fact, I don't think there's any relationship.
[09:00] But that wasn't my claim.
[09:02] Oh bro, your birth rates are indicative of greater happiness.
[09:05] I know — my — no, no, my claim, just so that you don't straw man.
[09:10] It is that women who have children seem to be happier than women who do not have children.
[09:16] That when you look at the birth rate of course that's going to map onto that as women are the ones who have the children.
[09:23] So obviously if they're happier, uh, they're going to have more children, and as mothers they're going to have more children.
[09:30] This is what the few research shows.
[09:33] Do you think there might be a confounding variable there, like maybe the economic stability which allows people to have children might, uh, make people, you know, happier?
[09:43] Then why are the poorest people having the most of them?
[09:45] Because poorer people sometimes are happier, and sometimes they have more children.
[09:51] Or maybe there isn't a strong relationship between how many children you're having right now.
[09:54] So, so what?
[09:56] So what would make poorer people happier than people with all of this materialism?
[10:00] That's really weird, Vosh.
[10:02] I didn't say that.
[10:04] I was indicating that I think this is an argument in favor of my point.
[10:05] I just don't think these two statistics crack onto each other very well, and I don't know.
[10:08] I don't think you do either, frankly.
[10:11] Um, I think that the reality that when we talk about like what makes people unhappy or what problems we can solve socially, the actual like fabric of a person's mental wellness is so complicated and so multivariate that I would immediately distrust anyone who tried to reduce it to a single variable.
[10:27] I'm more interested in — we're not really — hang on, hang on, we're not reducing anything to a single variable.
[10:31] That's one, okay.
[10:33] Nobody said the issue is not multifaceted.
[10:34] However, for you to make kind of this bold claim and gloss it over when you're pinned down on the fact that the people who are the poorest, they seem to be the happiest — at least that's what your claim just was a second ago — no, if that's true, then obviously it must be something other than materialism which is causing them to be happier.
[10:56] What would you say that that is?
[10:57] Bosh, I didn't make that claim.
[10:59] I said that there are plenty of — no, I said maybe it's this, maybe it's that, maybe it's this, as ways of indicating that I don't feel there's a strong track between birth rates and happiness.
[11:06] Birth rates are higher in many parts of the world that are a lot poorer and less.
[11:13] Happy than the United States in the United States it is absolutely the case that poor people tend to have more children.
[11:17] There's also a racial or ethnic element to that as well, but this isn't a perfect one-to-one track.
[11:24] For instance, rural areas where these cities are drying up and dying, there are people who have lots of kids, sure, but they're not happy.
[11:30] I mean, we make, you know, uh, I guess sort of reductive comments about white trash families, and I don't think that's fair, but it is certainly the case that, you know, there are plenty of households out there where you have both many children and not a lot of happiness.
[11:42] I just, this is another problem with the materialist worldview, Vosh.
[11:46] When you claim, make this kind of bold claim, don't you think that economics really has a lot to do with whether or not people are having children, and then you cite that the poorest people are having the most amount of children, right?
[11:54] This is a very strange argument from you, so I'm hoping that you can qualify this and make this make sense to me.
[12:00] I don't, I don't think anything that I said there doesn't make sense.
[12:03] The characteristics that might lead a person to have a lot of children are incredibly complicated.
[12:08] I mean, if you want a full rundown, it correlates more often to people who are poorer, I imagine.
[12:14] Because people who are poorer often have a harder time with regards to family planning and management.
[12:19] They also have less strict, uh, life plans when it comes to their own career.
[12:23] Poor also more religious, uh, sometimes, but most of the time, but they're not the happiest.
[12:28] In fact, there's a very large degree of opioid addiction and unhappiness in highly religious rural communities with lots of children.
[12:37] So it's almost like your attempt to reduce these variables to some kind of simple correlative line — it doesn't actually work when you look at the material reality.
[12:46] Okay, well first of all, first of all, backing up, you and I have both agreed already that it's multifaceted, right?
[12:53] I'll agree that that's true, but that doesn't mean that some variables aren't far more important than others, which is why you cited an economic variable to begin with, moving into this.
[13:03] When you're talking about, uh, this, this portion of the topic, which is, uh, birth rates, which have become absolutely disastrous everywhere — not just in the west, but globally — this was...
[13:14] All due to anti-natalist campaigning.
[13:16] From what's disastrous about our birth rates, they're in free fall collapse.
[13:18] Bosh, they've lowered as they have in every industrialized country.
[13:23] Sure, no, in all countries, almost all countries.
[13:27] Everywhere with the exception of a few African nations and Middle Eastern nations, and those are dropping off quickly too.
[13:33] Industrialized countries produce fewer children because you no longer need eight little tykes to run the farm, of course.
[13:38] Uh, well, no, that's not the only reason that we have a collapse in birth rate.
[13:42] It's because women are getting married older instead of younger.
[13:47] Now you couldn't make the argument — well, you could make the argument that this is due to, uh, you know, better family planning or, uh, something like this, I suppose.
[13:57] Uh, but still, ultimately, if you want to keep your population high, thus keeping your economy good, uh, in all nations on planet Earth, you can't just shift around people who don't exist because the birth rate's lower everywhere.
[14:09] No, well, no, they're actually plateauing quickly, and the last U.N. report...
[14:15] Showed that but the most modern U.N report on population demographics which I have in front of me show that it's much more catastrophic than the U.N previously predicted, citing that China and this this came in from a study from um sorry it's on Forbes specific to the the one child policy.
[14:36] I don't I think that was very dumb of the they're talking about a 500 million 500 million reduction in the Chinese population potentially by 2050 2060.
[14:50] That's right around the corner, okay.
[14:51] That's a massive population reduction.
[14:53] In Japan within 200 years is actually slated to not exist.
[14:59] It's not slated to not exist through it's a population so is the world population growing or decreasing right now?
[15:05] Right now it's plateauing.
[15:07] The world population as I understand it is still growing at a decent yes.
[15:11] But it's plateauing just yes sure that's fine.
[15:14] We have a finite and then it free.
[15:17] Falls and then it's projected to free fall by every U.N. analyst and by every uh scientific metric that you can possibly look at who has looked at this.
[15:25] It's expected to free fall and possibly stabilize at 6 billion in the next 150 years uh to 200 years.
[15:31] But I estimates what U.N. analysts yeah I'd like to see that also assuming that's the case.
[15:37] Um okay I mean it can't grow forever like let's just say let's presume that information is accurate uh that seems fine.
[15:45] I mean what what should we have 10 12 15 well so here's why here's why this is problematic vosh because uh the population bomb which was a book that was dropped all over the African nations and India in order to reduce the populations of those nation significantly it turns out that was very problematic because as it turns out the more people you have the more work gets done and the more people get fed right.
[16:14] Now due to the increase in population there's more global food production the
[16:19] Ability to deliver this food globally to people who need it than there ever has been in human history.
[16:25] That's what happens with pronatalist policies versus anti-natalists.
[16:27] Okay wait, you just answer the what population do you think it should stop at?
[16:32] So okay, it might stop at 6 billion.
[16:35] What meaningfully is the difference between I think that the earth can easily according to analysis have up to 25, 30 billion people with pretty, pretty you know, it's pretty, pretty regular ease?
[16:46] Is that within that confines of those numbers ideal?
[16:50] How is that better than what we have?
[16:53] Because more people equals more work, less starvation for populations, more work for infrastructure building, more work for I mean even look at the U.S. labor force now.
[17:05] One of the biggest problems to cater to this is this is very, very silly.
[17:10] The idea that everything gets better the more people are on earth is just not the case.
[17:13] First of all, like people, the number of humans that are going to end up on the planet and like sort of plateau out at that's not the same as.
[17:20] Our maximum carrying capacity, you don't want to hit the maximum carrying capacity for the same reason we're nowhere near it.
[17:27] Yeah, I'm saying you don't want a problem, and the reason for that is the same reason you don't want to hit the maximum carrying capacity of an elevator or a restaurant.
[17:33] You know maximum, but we don't even know what the maximum carrying capacity is.
[17:37] But we do, we're nowhere near it, and we're also declining.
[17:39] Understand what the issue is with these broader trends.
[17:43] Um, well, I just explained it to you.
[17:45] You don't want populations in free fall collapse.
[17:47] No, you don't even have enough hands to do the work.
[17:48] You don't have that now in the United States.
[17:51] The amount of work, first of all, we do get plenty of work done in this country, and second of all, the idea that sure, you have less people doing work, but you also have less people for whom to do the work.
[18:02] Like the idea that you would be doing the same amount of labor if there were 30 billion people on Earth as you have to now with 8 billion people on Earth, no man, no, no.
[18:10] Labor's scalable, you need to understand.
[18:12] So I don't, I don't, so like when you combine two people together to do a job, it doesn't get done twice as fast, it gets done four or five times.
[18:20] That's highly reductive and not the case for.
[18:22] All things there are plenty of things like Regional economic limits or non-scalability or lacking in land area or climate change changing the available land.
[18:32] Give me a type of job or occupation were that true of.
[18:34] There's not any.
[18:36] I don't have to provide any argument here because the premise of arguing against is nonsensical.
[18:41] Let me construct and I have no argument.
[18:43] Well you have to provide an idea first.
[18:45] I did and the idea you're providing is what if we had an ideology that made everyone have as much babies as possible.
[18:51] But you need to sell me on this being a good idea because I don't care.
[18:55] I'm not sold on this.
[18:57] I want people who are alive to be happy.
[18:59] I want the human species to do well.
[19:01] I think that the human species did pretty well at 6 billion.
[19:05] I'm sure it would do pretty well at eight or 10 or whatever.
[19:07] But the idea of orienting all of my political beliefs around hitting okay kind of Maximum.
[19:11] So I'll try a different angle for you then.
[19:13] If that's your approach you do agree that you do want some people on planet Earth right?
[19:17] At least some number of them.
[19:19] Yeah sure, I mean I want okay what number?
[19:22] Would that be from your perspective I don't I don't care that's the thing that okay well then then what's the argument here?
[19:32] And if the birth rate if the birth rate reduces so a population collapses there's no people that bad you have to explain to me how shifting our entire like um the political mindset to accommodate some arbitrary goal that you've just made up in front of me is necessary at all.
[19:47] I think that if we build can't be arbitrary if you agree we need Humanity no the endpoint is still let me jump in and bridge the gap really quick really really quickly.
[19:54] I just want to ask like or I just want to put forward like the point here really really quickly okay I think that we should build good political systems that make people happy and encourage growth in economic ability and all those wonderful things.
[20:05] I do not think we need to orient everything about some kind of psychotic pronatalist perspective where we try to keep women out of colleges and in the home so every single one of them has like seven children.
[20:16] I don't know nobody okay first of all you're doing there all you're doing there is framing I never made the.
[20:23] argument that women must do anything
[20:25] what I told you is that we have a birth
[20:27] rate that's in free fall you agree that
[20:29] we need to at least have some Humanity
[20:30] which means you have to at least replace
[20:32] the people who are in existence so you
[20:35] and I can at least agree that every
[20:37] human being should probably have at
[20:38] least one other human being to replace
[20:41] them right or if not uh there needs to
[20:44] be some number of humans on planet Earth
[20:46] so if that's true and you and I agree
[20:48] that that's true then having a declining
[20:50] birth rate that would be catastrophic
[20:52] for both of our World Views if it levels
[20:55] I'm gonna step in for one second and
[20:57] just kind of bridge the gap a little bit
[20:59] so you guys both agree that there needs
[21:01] to be humans on Earth but the difference
[21:04] is is that is saying hey I don't
[21:06] understand why it's important for us to
[21:08] increase the amount of people that we
[21:10] have on the plan now Andrew's saying hey
[21:12] I think that would actually be better so
[21:14] that's that's what Vash is asking the
[21:16] problem that's that's actually incorrect
[21:17] so what I'm saying to you is that the
[21:19] amount of people are on planet Earth
[21:21] right now are the slated to
[21:23] significantly decrease down to maybe
[21:25] half or below I have not said what's the
[21:29] current status is right now okay well
[21:30] I've just linked the article over to
[21:33] China's population right here what about
[21:36] world yeah world population this is this
[21:37] is the projection now the world
[21:38] population the UN projection was at 6
[21:41] billion however the trend is very very
[21:44] quickly going the other direction I can
[21:46] send you an article on this as well as
[21:47] the World Industries so they're saying
[21:49] that it could be reduced to as as little
[21:51] as three and a half billion to four
[21:52] billion speculative numbers that don't
[21:55] actually tie in with like the broader
[21:56] consensus looks not speculative though
[21:59] is the number of or what the birth rate
[22:01] is after the percentage of the
[22:02] population invariably no matter what
[22:04] point you hit you will hit it periods of
[22:06] general like population decline because
[22:09] it's not possible to perpetually
[22:11] maintain growth or stagnation there will
[22:14] be waves up and down this is inevitable
[22:16] I think that what's the problem here is
[22:18] that this is all fake policy there is no
[22:20] such thing as like Global pronatalism or
[22:23] anti-natalism you said earlier the left
[22:25] does Anthony this is nonsense let me get
[22:27] an example people have children and are
[22:30] able to have children in line with the
[22:32] material circumstances they live in are
[22:33] they educated do they have the money do
[22:35] they have the space in their household
[22:36] are there cultural values that incline
[22:38] them towards having more children or not
[22:40] these are the things that we can do in
[22:42] control now if we're to have a
[22:43] discussion on what we should promote you
[22:45] know
[22:46] um here's something I think we could do
[22:48] okay I think no no let me respond to
[22:50] these two points because the first one
[22:52] is the two points that you struggled in
[22:55] the first point that you smuggled in was
[22:57] that people can only have children based
[22:59] on material conditions not true they
[23:01] have children outside of the scope of
[23:02] their material conditions all the time
[23:04] and that's why why you see some of the
[23:06] poorest nations in the World breeding
[23:08] more than any other nations
[23:16] described those are the material
[23:18] conditions material conditions doesn't
[23:19] mean if you're rich enough it means that
[23:21] the circumstances that surround you give
[23:24] you the ability and inclination to do
[23:26] something poverty inclines people
[23:28] towards having lots of children that is
[23:29] a material oh man okay fine even if I
[23:32] grant this okay this kind of second
[23:35] thing uh which you smuggled in is that
[23:37] the left has no anti-natalist policy but
[23:39] they do they're the by far the largest
[23:42] Advocates of abortion everywhere on
[23:45] planet Earth that will that's a
[23:46] left-wing socialist policy for sure even
[23:50] back to its roots it was a socialist
[23:52] policy there's no doubt that that's true
[23:54] they're the ones who dropped the
[23:56] population bomb all over planet Earth
[23:58] via helicopter in order to get people to
[24:00] stop breeding yes they have had
[24:02] significant anti-natalist policies it's
[24:04] absurd day otherwise so you're saying
[24:06] that giving people the choice as to
[24:08] whether or not they want to have
[24:09] children it leads to a decrease in how
[24:10] many children people have first well
[24:12] again this is a smuggled in premise
[24:14] that's not right you're not giving them
[24:16] the choice you're saying you can't kill
[24:19] your Offspring there's a distinction no
[24:21] the legality of abortion is giving
[24:22] people the choice to have or to not have
[24:25] children it leaves out the possibility
[24:27] of accidentally now this is your battery
[24:29] no no no no please keep making the
[24:31] Assumption stop complaining that
[24:33] literally anything that doesn't
[24:34] immediately like pre-pack your framing
[24:36] into it is some kind of biased question
[24:37] okay well then don't complain
[24:39] immediately that I accept your framing
[24:40] as being true I want well my framing is
[24:42] that if people have the option to abort
[24:44] a fetus that they will have less
[24:46] children I think that people should want
[24:48] to have the children they have so I want
[24:50] to build a society in which maybe people
[24:52] have more children but they're amped
[24:54] about it and what that means is
[24:55] supporting material policies like for
[24:57] example free child care or better tax
[25:00] credits or uh legal mandates for
[25:03] corporations to provide maternity and
[25:05] eternity leave those are examples of
[25:07] things that socialists tend to support
[25:08] and would massively increase the
[25:10] viability of having children even in an
[25:12] industrialized country that's real power
[25:14] and if that's true then how come in the
[25:17] Nations where these things are
[25:18] implemented you have not seen the birth
[25:20] rate make a recovery vosh uh well I
[25:22] think that there's more to it than that
[25:24] so then why are you giving me policies
[25:26] that don't work I don't care they do
[25:28] give me policies that work they do work
[25:30] uh well then show me how they work okay
[25:33] and where they were wait do you need me
[25:35] to explain to you how like State
[25:36] subsidized daycare makes it easier for
[25:38] people to have kids why it has not done
[25:40] any reversal to the birth rate in the
[25:42] Nations which have implemented do you
[25:44] have data that demonstrates it as
[25:45] absolutely yes the birth rate of which
[25:47] which nation would you like to cite and
[25:49] I'll give you the birth rates and that
[25:50] they're on the decline absolutely what
[25:52] specific policies wait hold on they're
[25:54] on the decline is it possible they would
[25:56] be more on the decline if it wasn't for
[25:58] those policies
[26:09] you say that these are the policies
[26:11] which would reverse the trend they want
[26:13] they don't reverse the trash I can give
[26:14] more so a lot and give more sure a lot
[26:16] of it also has to do with work culture
[26:18] even in a society in which people are uh
[26:20] given the opportunity to have children
[26:22] with State mandates and subsidies what
[26:23] have you
[26:24] um there's a huge issue of like people
[26:26] lose out economically on a lot by having
[26:28] children
[26:29] um a lot of this also has to do with
[26:31] like keeping dads in the home right like
[26:32] if a dad takes six months off work even
[26:34] if it's part of fraternity leave that is
[26:36] a rough sell economically and a
[26:38] condition incentivize their future
[26:40] promotions I think that we should have a
[26:42] culture that is much more permissive
[26:45] towards people not being non-stop 24 7
[26:47] Workaholics because that kills
[26:49] families not only does it prevent people
[26:51] from having kids it also up the
[26:53] kids if they are born this is a
[26:55] restatement of the same exact claim
[26:57] you're giving a material position to
[26:59] this and yet in the places where you
[27:01] have these material positions like
[27:02] France for instance where you have a
[27:04] reduction in the work week and you do
[27:06] have these types of child care programs
[27:08] you still see the collapse in free fall
[27:11] of their birth rates this is not reverse
[27:13] flying these Trends wait hold on
[27:14] whatsoever France birth rate over time
[27:18] you use very scary words like collapse
[27:21] and free fall and I just want to make
[27:22] yeah free fall
[27:23] um it looks like it up yourself it looks
[27:26] like um hold on one second
[27:28] it looks like it's been holding a
[27:30] roughly steady for decades
[27:35] yeah let's let's take let's take yeah
[27:37] wait I have it I have it shown here so
[27:38] it looks like in percentage increase and
[27:40] decrease there's been like a two percent
[27:42] aggregate decrease since wait hold on so
[27:45] it's uh in the year of Our Lord what
[27:48] year is this wait hold on sorry
[27:50] 2023 right now I mean
[27:53] 2012.7 and then right here you had down
[27:57] to one so I guess it's right 2020 France
[28:00] was at 1.83 bursts per woman that's not
[28:03] even replacement rate vosh you have
[28:05] nothing here with it okay but what's the
[28:07] rate over the past few decades also you
[28:09] need to have at least you need to have
[28:10] at least 2.2 but even if that were true
[28:13] and the rate were still decreasing past
[28:15] your policy implementation it hasn't
[28:17] done it hasn't reversed it wait it
[28:19] hasn't done what you wanted to do so
[28:21] again you you don't seem to understand
[28:22] how this data works the whole point of
[28:25] like inferring causality and why it's
[28:27] bad is that you don't know whether or
[28:29] not these would have been worse
[28:30] otherwise so I'm looking at
[28:32] macrotrends.net on the France fertility
[28:34] rate where it seems like back in 1978
[28:37] they had 1.86 births per women and right
[28:40] now they have 1.86 births per women
[28:41] there's been about a bunch of like
[28:43] fluctuation but over the past 45 years
[28:45] the French birth rate has stayed
[28:47] basically the same so I don't like it
[28:49] when you hear you're talking about
[28:50] negligible difference right right now
[28:53] stability 40 years in the year to in the
[28:57] year 2020 the United States that 1.64
[29:00] birth rate and France is only negligibly
[29:03] at 1.8 this is a negligible distinction
[29:06] we were utilizing the same policies that
[29:08] you advocate for we were talking about
[29:10] France and I just don't like you using
[29:13] terms like collapse and Free Fall when
[29:15] what we actually see is total stability
[29:17] over the past 40 years I mean that's not
[29:19] no we don't in fact I'm I'm pulling it
[29:22] looks exactly like bro their birth rate
[29:25] looks exactly like ours it has been
[29:27] collapsing since World War II okay
[29:29] there's no doubt that I'm looking at the
[29:31] data okay wait I'm gonna link you this
[29:32] really quickly so you can see what I'm
[29:34] seeing because I feel like we're talking
[29:35] past each other a little bit uh if you
[29:37] want to share the screen just added I
[29:39] can share the screen right here well
[29:40] I've just linked it you can well no just
[29:42] put it in the private chat and I'll I'll
[29:44] get a look at it here I have linked it
[29:46] uh I have linked it right there and as
[29:47] you can see the French birth rate has
[29:49] remained stable for nearly 4 45 years
[29:51] now which is pretty significant I feel
[29:54] unless I'm misreading this data but it
[29:56] was at 1.86 per woman back in 1978 and
[30:02] it's the same today
[30:04] so I again like free fall and stability
[30:06] 1.5 so okay so we see a historical
[30:11] collapse we see in the U.N projections
[30:15] and yet another collapse so wait no wait
[30:18] no listen wait I'm listening
[30:21] wait what claps I'm looking at a
[30:24] horizontal line what is your definition
[30:26] of collapse where's the claps yeah so
[30:28] I'm going to send you over the counter
[30:30] data no no because this is not correct
[30:32] in the data okay okay so you're
[30:33] contesting the data but in the data that
[30:35] I'm looking at that I just sent you the
[30:37] macro Trends link you would agree that
[30:39] this is not a collapse this is stability
[30:40] right
[30:42] according to this particular projection
[30:45] what I see is a massive Free Fall which
[30:47] happened you would agree that that's a
[30:48] free fall right well it decreased Free
[30:51] Fall implies like a lack of stability
[30:53] when in fact our countries are the most
[30:55] I mean so it goes down okay so it starts
[30:57] it's 2.8 and it goes all the way down to
[30:59] 1.8
[31:00] it's like Panic language it's like woman
[31:03] stuff you know and then it goes down
[31:05] okay fine whatever the language it's
[31:09] like it's like saying like the number of
[31:10] horses used in public travel free fell
[31:13] after 1920 and it's like okay they
[31:15] didn't really free fall it decreased but
[31:18] I don't like because if all implies some
[31:20] kind of like catastrophic event you know
[31:23] and do you see on your line graph that
[31:25] you gave me where it says the word
[31:27] current yeah if you hover your mouse
[31:29] over there do you see in the 2023 boxed
[31:32] into the red what does that say minus
[31:36] 0.05 yes right so it's still on a slight
[31:40] negative Trend down even according to
[31:42] your data however I'll give you data
[31:44] from the UN which still predicts this
[31:46] free fall at that rate in a hundred
[31:48] years it would not have even reduced by
[31:51] 0.1 Earths per woman
[31:54] yeah so this is Francis fell by seven
[31:58] percent seven percent and continues to
[32:01] decline according to the French National
[32:03] Institute for statistics and economic
[32:05] studies 24 000 fewer yeah I'll send it
[32:09] over to you via the uh private chat so
[32:12] this I would have to dig into your
[32:15] fertility rates uh to understand if
[32:17] maybe there was an office uh I just I
[32:20] just Googled something it just I know
[32:21] that there was a significant decrease in
[32:24] the um in the western world's birth
[32:26] rates as we moved into modernity post
[32:28] World War II such and such for sure but
[32:30] since then I feel like the numbers have
[32:31] been more or less stable though there is
[32:33] some variety they're not stable wait
[32:34] hold on okay so the problem here is that
[32:37] this is a panic article why on Earth
[32:41] would you ever try to assess a nation's
[32:43] just get the numbers but with a single
[32:46] year of data this be it the numbers so
[32:49] okay so the way numbers work is if you
[32:52] want to analyze trends of stuff like
[32:54] birth rates in a nation that go out
[32:56] forward and backward decades you try to
[32:58] use like larger aggregate data rather
[33:01] than like global data sure like over
[33:04] decades and decades so let me give you
[33:06] the global global data shows the
[33:07] population is increasing but again what
[33:10] is the global data show about birth
[33:12] rates though the birth rates are
[33:14] decreasing the population is right so
[33:16] can you perpetually have a birth rate
[33:18] which decreases in a population which
[33:20] increases Bosh no but I don't want to
[33:22] apologize no you can't yeah I don't
[33:25] that's that's not an own because I
[33:27] oh my god did I just accidentally close
[33:29] the steam stream yard oh my God I'm
[33:31] so sorry I I accidentally closed this I
[33:33] thought I was closing a random link
[33:36] no ah we were mid thingy okay hold on
[33:39] click click click it in
[33:41] okay there he is I'm sorry I hit the
[33:44] wrong button I thought I was closing a
[33:45] link but it turns out I was closing
[33:47] another link hi sorry okay yes I heard
[33:49] you you said uh we were talking about
[33:52] um the birth rate falling even if the
[33:54] population increases sorry that was my
[33:55] that was my debate tactic yeah the birth
[33:57] rate the birth rate is still falling
[33:58] even if the population isolated for uh
[34:01] for an increase temporarily that's fine
[34:02] with that yeah but we don't actually
[34:04] know that the population is slated for
[34:06] the kind of increase
[34:08] um weren't we talking about France I'm
[34:10] going to show this like yeah I'm going
[34:11] to show this to you that you you could
[34:13] so that you understand the reason well
[34:15] France was actually a sideline to this
[34:17] however you asked me for an argument for
[34:20] why it is that Christians want our
[34:22] pronatalists essentially and why we see
[34:25] that as a massive and why we see that as
[34:27] a massive problem you can see this
[34:29] competes and there is data linked within
[34:32] that link which is competitive to the UN
[34:35] models which shows that the U.N models
[34:38] could be vastly incorrect with their
[34:40] projection I can't really engage with a
[34:44] random foresight patient article that
[34:47] says hey maybe the UN and all that data
[34:49] is wrong and there are millions of
[34:50] calculations and predictions okay would
[34:52] you like it from Forbes no I know I just
[34:54] you are not going to convince me that
[34:56] the population is about to engage in
[34:58] erratic free fall I think we should just
[34:59] talk about what it's already there I
[35:00] want to put forward well it's not
[35:02] objectively not happening
[35:04] um it is practically happening globally
[35:06] Earth rates decreasing and population
[35:08] decreasing are different things you
[35:10] can't have a Non-Stop birth rate of six
[35:12] children per women that's not a
[35:13] sustainable birth rate
[35:15] first of all why why isn't that a
[35:17] sustainable birth rate you know how Okay
[35:19] do you are you familiar with the concept
[35:21] of thermodynamics if you have six
[35:23] children per women assuming a modern day
[35:25] uh survivability rate into childhood you
[35:28] would eventually over the course of like
[35:30] a century multiply the human species
[35:32] into a sustainable hey Bosch Bosh do me
[35:35] a favor close your eyes for a second
[35:37] just a second and tell me what the first
[35:40] law of thermodynamics is right what does
[35:43] that have to do with the mass birth you
[35:44] don't even know why would you ask me I
[35:46] don't remember which ones
[35:49] the opposite reaction so wait what is
[35:53] what does that to have to do with like
[35:54] the um what does that have to do with
[35:56] with like so you don't understand how an
[35:58] exponential growth in the human body
[36:00] can't tell me I don't understand
[36:01] something Dynamics
[36:04] you can't you can't uh smoke a cigarette
[36:07] and like sip whiskey out of a skull
[36:08] glass and then at like pretend that we
[36:11] have an Arisen like a problem here you
[36:13] need to explain to me how you don't
[36:16] think it's an issue to exponentially
[36:19] increase the human population in death
[36:21] no my um I ask of you was you made the
[36:23] claim that this would be a problem if
[36:25] every woman on planet Earth had six
[36:27] children I asked you why that would be a
[36:29] problem because that's your claim and I
[36:31] said and you might recall this I said
[36:33] because we have a finite amount of space
[36:35] and if we do that we would bring the
[36:37] human population Beyond a sustainable
[36:39] level okay so I could agree with you and
[36:42] this is such a silly conversation so I
[36:45] can agree with you I can agree with you
[36:47] in theory that that would be true if it
[36:49] was Perpetual with like
[36:51] um you know if this was for every single
[36:53] woman forever
[36:56] I can't have a six children per woman
[37:00] birth rate forever and you asked why not
[37:02] now don't pretend you didn't say that
[37:04] yeah but do you know why I did that I
[37:06] asked you this because I wanted you to
[37:07] land on the number which is sustainable
[37:11] which is
[37:12] I don't know I'm asking you what I don't
[37:15] because you say that you say sex is not
[37:16] sustainable I can agree to that but what
[37:18] number is sustainable so your argument
[37:20] then is that we should magically make
[37:22] women produce a uh exponentially larger
[37:25] number of children until we just
[37:27] eventually happen to hit the maximum
[37:29] possible amount of children or like
[37:31] people we can have on the planet and
[37:33] then we have what a bunch of like war
[37:34] and resource conflicts we're running out
[37:36] of drinkable water as it is in many
[37:38] places I haven't even put forward a
[37:39] policy why are you I know because you
[37:41] have nothing you're arguing no I'm
[37:44] already dead and I'll ask you for one
[37:46] I've asked you for policies multiple
[37:47] times so if you want a specific
[37:51] pronatalist policy which I have would be
[37:53] eliminating abortion okay that's why I
[37:55] donate this policy phenomenal I don't
[37:57] care I think that if people are going to
[37:58] happen oh you don't care but I haven't
[38:00] given anything policies it's been like
[38:02] 40 minutes and it's all been vibes from
[38:04] you it's all been like well I think it
[38:06] should be like this tell me why argument
[38:08] infinite number of humans I've given you
[38:10] are a good idea
[38:11] um but you you haven't even provided an
[38:13] argument for why we should just catapult
[38:15] the human population to the maximum
[38:16] possible level this planet can hold like
[38:18] morally first of all I didn't tell you I
[38:22] didn't tell you to
[38:24] push it to the maximum limit what I said
[38:26] to you is that what we have seen as a
[38:28] trend and I'd love to see you disagree
[38:30] with this is that more people equals
[38:32] less starvation as opposed to when there
[38:34] was less people and more starvation and
[38:36] every single scientific study I've seen
[38:38] on this proves that this is true
[38:40] relationship even the vegans know that
[38:43] this is true is this a causative
[38:44] relationship or do you think that
[38:46] changes yes it's a causative
[38:47] relationship so you're saying so you're
[38:49] saying that even though we already have
[38:51] enough food to feed all humans on Earth
[38:52] right now we need more people to make
[38:55] more food to feed More Humans so we have
[38:57] less starvation than the theoretically
[38:59] none we could be having right now well
[39:01] first of all there's a lot of loaded
[39:03] presuppositions the first loaded
[39:05] presupposition don't cut me off when I
[39:07] answer your question
[39:09] which is I'm answering it so first of
[39:12] all your loaded presupposition there is
[39:13] nobody said that we even have enough
[39:15] food right now for the entirety of the
[39:17] population you just smuggle that in
[39:19] second I think the ginormous cost of
[39:23] human labor which is what allows that
[39:26] food to go all over the world the United
[39:28] States for instance massive exporter of
[39:31] food we do we are an importer of food as
[39:33] well other nations are but it's due to
[39:36] the fact that we can export and import
[39:37] you can get things like salt and pepper
[39:39] and all these other different things so
[39:40] how do you think how do you think salt
[39:42] mines work how do you think so food is
[39:44] gathered we already have food you're
[39:47] arguing that we need 30 billion people
[39:49] on Earth in order to get things that we
[39:51] are well we would at least need to
[39:52] sustain the current population
[39:54] we can we have enough to well then why
[39:57] is the birthright going down genius
[40:02] I sincerely want to know what on God's
[40:05] green earth are you arguing right now I
[40:07] genuinely have no idea you said you said
[40:10] to me why is it already
[40:13] so I tell you why we should keep it
[40:15] sustained you say we have enough workers
[40:17] and food right now however if the birth
[40:18] rate's too low and the population goes
[40:20] down
[40:23] the population is not only increasing
[40:25] and it's hang on and it's slated to do
[40:29] what soon
[40:31] um go Which Way some people say that
[40:34] it's going to decrease which would
[40:35] happen if we hit some people's
[40:37] population as well you realize that if
[40:39] we had a gigantic wait wait please
[40:41] please I can't listen to your your
[40:43] irrational rambling for that much longer
[40:45] without arriving at something that even
[40:46] you mean completely rational arguments
[40:48] you can't refuse no uh not even remote
[40:50] yes so you realize even if we had a
[40:53] gigantic population boom and we hit and
[40:55] we plateaued a what 35 million there
[40:57] would still be constant fluctuations in
[40:59] the overall population which would have
[41:01] their own economic Cycles crises and
[41:03] regions stop trying to shift the topic
[41:05] we were exactly
[41:07] so you asked me about lowering you said
[41:10] we have enough people now yes
[41:17] you're cutting me off Andrew let me
[41:20] finish and then you can talk you cut me
[41:21] off you're saying that okay
[41:23] you give me the signal for when you're
[41:26] done talking and then I will go ahead
[41:27] and refute it all right it will be a
[41:29] while
[41:30] um so you're saying all of this needs to
[41:32] be done to avoid the problems associated
[41:34] with population decrease but that would
[41:36] also happen even if we hit the maximum
[41:38] carrying capacity of the planet because
[41:39] population fluctuations are an
[41:41] inevitable part of all human
[41:43] civilization depending on a variety of
[41:44] internal factors so we would never even
[41:46] be fully rid of the problem of the
[41:48] population occasionally decreasing
[41:50] that's one for two you've made the
[41:52] argument that we need more people to
[41:55] feed more people this makes absolutely
[41:57] no sense we have enough resources on the
[41:59] planet as it is and we're going to run
[42:00] into more resource issues the more
[42:01] people we have because in addition to
[42:03] climate change literally eating up
[42:05] millions and millions of square miles of
[42:07] like arable population-filled land uh we
[42:10] also have the broader problem uh that
[42:13] these are not like problems we need to
[42:15] solve right now uh we already have the
[42:17] resources necessary to feed as many
[42:20] people as we want within our own
[42:22] population if you want to increase the
[42:23] the population again this isn't like a
[42:26] policy first issue if you want there are
[42:28] policies that you can promote and if
[42:30] people are happy and feel like they can
[42:31] maybe they can have more children but
[42:33] the idea of like we need to drop
[42:35] everything right now and change
[42:37] everything no no no no no I was I said
[42:39] I'd tell you
[42:40] um the idea that we need to drop all
[42:41] sensible policy making and forget about
[42:43] socioeconomics as a concept just so we
[42:45] can pursue this arbitrary goal of
[42:47] inflating the population creating by the
[42:49] way massive resource conflicts because
[42:50] quadrupling the human population within
[42:52] a century or two would inevitably lead
[42:54] to massive conflict because those gains
[42:56] would not be distributed evenly across
[42:57] populations people with different
[42:58] territories that wouldn't be fully
[42:59] settled so we're causing all these
[43:01] problems for what if you want to ban
[43:03] abortion just say man abortion like
[43:04] don't it's like it's already half but
[43:07] now back that's my argument say wait
[43:09] wait you said
[43:11] discipline oh I told you take discipline
[43:13] is being a man making promises and
[43:15] filling to those promises okay so you
[43:17] have to wait a bit longer earlier on in
[43:19] your opening statement you wind up at
[43:21] the left and feminism let me respond
[43:23] your point well so listen this is
[43:26] ridiculous
[43:28] person conservatism
[43:31] what you said was this you said we
[43:34] already have enough people to just you
[43:36] just made the argument Again by the way
[43:37] we already have enough people to sustain
[43:39] this and we can deliver Global Food
[43:41] because there's plenty of food right now
[43:42] with the current population we have but
[43:44] you also agree that the population is
[43:47] slated to go significantly down
[43:50] by the birth rate you know this you've
[43:52] conceded that each two things cannot
[43:55] make sense together you can't say why
[43:57] are you advocating a pro-natalist policy
[44:00] when we already have all the people that
[44:01] are required in order to deliver all
[44:03] this food there will well in the future
[44:05] don't cut me off didn't cut you off in
[44:08] the future in the future we're not going
[44:11] to have this population we can see it in
[44:12] all the trends including the UN forecast
[44:14] that's why we need a pronatalist policy
[44:16] and you the materialist is still arguing
[44:18] against it even knowing that that's true
[44:20] well I don't think you have pro-natalist
[44:22] positions I think that what you're
[44:23] talking about would actually wreak
[44:24] Devastation and mass death on an
[44:26] unprecedented scale which thankfully
[44:28] thankfully it doesn't matter because
[44:29] what you're saying is gobbledygook it's
[44:31] nonsense the idea of like what's my
[44:32] first policy position make more babies
[44:35] um how about this take an average
[44:37] American man good old Earnest man okay
[44:40] how are your policies going to make his
[44:43] life better okay we're talking about
[44:44] voter uh a good good old boy how how is
[44:48] he benefiting from this scheme to if we
[44:50] had 30 billion people then we could feed
[44:53] 30 billion people that was not my scheme
[44:55] you just again one more time you're
[44:57] completely mischaracterizing and straw
[44:59] Manning my position I never made the
[45:01] affirmative statement that we needed 30
[45:02] billion people on planet Earth you made
[45:05] it up out of the blue so that you could
[45:07] argue with the straw man's bad faith
[45:09] tactics by the way vosh but they won't
[45:11] work you you aren't making any
[45:12] affirmative so again I'll go ahead and
[45:14] make the affirmative statement for the
[45:15] policies that I would want to see you're
[45:17] talking to an average absolutely be
[45:18] against against abortion uh that would
[45:21] be a number one and that would be a
[45:23] pro-natalist policy not an anti-natalist
[45:25] policy you haven't made an argument for
[45:27] how that would be anti-natalist that's
[45:28] insane and then how this would benefit
[45:31] uh streamline America is we need to have
[45:34] workers ourselves here we need to have a
[45:36] replacement rate for our own for our own
[45:39] population in order to sustain itself
[45:41] other populations which we recruit
[45:44] immigrants from they're also in free
[45:46] fall collapse you cannot and you might
[45:48] take issue with the language but they're
[45:50] in at least a birth rate collapse you
[45:52] can't endlessly take from other
[45:54] populations which are also in collapse
[45:56] this is a serious and significant Global
[45:59] problem that needs to be addressed it's
[46:00] beneficial to everybody to address it
[46:03] also if you're just looking at the
[46:04] simple metrics for women women are
[46:06] happier with children across the board
[46:09] this is true they are happier and Report
[46:11] their happiness level as being higher
[46:13] with children there's no study that
[46:15] shows otherwise excuse again a bit of
[46:18] research there or is it just women with
[46:20] children tend to be happier is it
[46:21] positive or correlative do you know the
[46:23] difference between the two yeah what are
[46:25] you talking about is it positive or
[46:26] correlative in this particular case
[46:28] according to Pew anyway it looks like
[46:31] it's both it's positive and there's a
[46:33] correlation okay can you tell me what
[46:34] the difference is between a causative
[46:35] and a correlation yeah one causes and
[46:37] one's a correlatory there's lots of
[46:38] correlatories but correlatories can be
[46:40] part of a cause too vosh okay so what in
[46:42] the study indicates that they in Pew
[46:44] research polling this is extraordinary
[46:45] I've never heard the Pew research
[46:47] because they ask them because they asked
[46:48] them before you had kids were you happy
[46:50] and they went no and then they say well
[46:52] after you had the kids were you happier
[46:54] and it wasn't due to the kids and they
[46:55] said yes
[46:56] that's how Okay so a quick question do
[47:00] you think it might be beneficial to the
[47:01] happiness of those mothers that they
[47:03] actually chose to have those kids like
[47:05] do you think that a mother who is forced
[47:06] to have a child might be less happy with
[47:08] that child because the abortion was
[47:09] outlawed when we well that's not force
[47:12] that is forced to have a child right now
[47:14] no that's not mother stop complaining
[47:16] about the framing do you not understand
[47:18] stop lying about the framing it's not
[47:21] force
[47:21] I listen I live in a world of facts and
[47:24] not feelings and the idea that these
[47:26] State preventing a woman from having an
[47:28] abortion is not forcing them to have the
[47:29] child it's just lunacy I'm sorry I don't
[47:31] I don't subscribe to your feminine
[47:33] Christian then you need to explain how
[47:35] it is no because that is force it's a
[47:37] reframing because you want to argue
[47:38] about abortion and the God's honest
[47:40] truth is that I just don't care what
[47:41] your opinion is on it I want you to
[47:43] answer the question do you already
[47:45] answered your questions
[47:46] that's not the question do you not
[47:49] understand who a woman who has been
[47:50] forced to have a child as opposed to
[47:52] choosing to have a child might be less
[47:54] happy with having that child I've
[47:55] already I've already answered this twice
[47:57] it's not force that's not answering the
[47:59] question yeah it is
[48:07] everyone be quiet I'm just gonna go
[48:09] right ahead Alex so the um the actual
[48:12] question he's just you don't like his uh
[48:14] framing of using the word Force which is
[48:16] fine but the porn boss is trying to make
[48:18] don't you feel that babies who whose
[48:21] parents you know didn't really want to
[48:23] have them are going to be more
[48:25] suboptimal to parents whose babies did
[48:27] want to have that's actually a larger
[48:28] Point that's the question he's trying to
[48:30] ask you
[48:31] okay if you're if you're making the the
[48:34] correlatory there that um there could be
[48:37] some uh increase in women who are
[48:39] unhappy because they weren't allowed to
[48:42] have an abortion I can accept that
[48:43] framing that was the question sure yes
[48:46] yeah sure I can accept that but who
[48:48] cares oh well that's interesting because
[48:51] this whole time you've been
[48:52] disingenuously pretending you care about
[48:54] increasing the happiness of women and
[48:56] now we get that so yeah I I well it's
[48:58] tangential my point I know you don't
[49:00] care about the happiness the people
[49:01] involved you just want Christian
[49:03] nationalism because it's the preferred
[49:04] brand of fascism no I'm saying that this
[49:06] particular argument is tangential
[49:08] whatever whatever it would be for a
[49:11] reduction in happiness would be
[49:12] negligible in comparison to what Society
[49:15] gains by outlawing oh wait compared to
[49:18] what Society gains oh so you were not
[49:20] actually talking Christian ethics is a
[49:22] holistic approach yes I open this whole
[49:25] thing by talking about what would make
[49:26] people happier and now when we're on a
[49:28] topic that well you're like oh well
[49:29] actually would make people less happy
[49:30] but who cares society would gain yeah
[49:32] I'm not a utilitarian happiness is not
[49:34] my ultimate anything what you are your
[49:37] worldview what you are then is a liar
[49:39] because initially you frame this as a
[49:41] way of increasing people's happiness
[49:42] what could we do to make people happier
[49:43] well I know they don't know
[49:51] and then when after much prying you
[49:54] acknowledge that there is an element of
[49:55] forcing birth that would make people
[49:56] less happy no there's no element of
[49:58] forcing you're like ah well actually I
[50:00] didn't really care about that I know
[50:01] this is why your ethics are ungrounded
[50:03] you're actually no my ethics are the
[50:05] only ones which are grounded tell me
[50:06] what's a util what hold on what do you
[50:08] want to maximize for
[50:10] I'm not a utilitarian so wait what what
[50:12] do you want
[50:13] uh for me for Christian ethics that
[50:16] would be a sequence of Duties sequence
[50:18] of Duties and overlapping virtues okay
[50:21] and making people happy is not one of
[50:23] those duties and virtues I just said
[50:24] there's overlap overlap okay so um what
[50:28] what are they uh like all ethical
[50:29] systems have overlap like a utilitarian
[50:31] such as you there's overlap with Duty
[50:33] correct there's it's not a matter of
[50:35] overlapping making no it's a matter of
[50:36] axiomatic value
[50:38] uh wait wait wait it's an axiomatic
[50:41] value that there's no Duty for
[50:43] utilitarianism I don't know what you're
[50:44] referring to when you talk about dude
[50:45] utilitarianism isn't very like
[50:47] prerogatory when it comes to stuff like
[50:48] that Duty it's oh oh it's maximized then
[50:51] tell me what a util is then tell me what
[50:53] a util is it's about maximizing for the
[50:55] values that you have an axiomatic
[50:57] preference towards and if people have it
[50:59] earlier people have a duty to fulfill
[51:01] those utils that's a very complicated
[51:03] question I don't know
[51:06] it's philosophy there's not exactly a
[51:08] right or wrong answer you have beliefs
[51:10] there's no duty to fulfill your utils
[51:12] well it really genuinely depends yeah
[51:14] could you dedicate like 19 hours of your
[51:16] day every single day to converting one
[51:18] single person and saving them for the
[51:20] fires of hell you could that might in
[51:21] fact be a responsibility depending on
[51:23] your sect of Christianity to save those
[51:25] from Oblivion from whether or not you
[51:27] believe in purgatory or damnation or
[51:28] whatever
[51:29] Duty for people to enforce the utils now
[51:32] you're avoiding my questions you wait I
[51:35] I asked you a question
[51:37] I answered yours and asked you want to
[51:39] answer mine what do you do you have a
[51:40] duty you said there's no overlap there's
[51:42] no they're over I don't know what's
[51:43] happening it's just silly to say is
[51:45] there overlap with duties and
[51:46] utilitarianism or not I don't understand
[51:48] what you like you're asking uh like you
[51:51] know what time is the plane you you the
[51:53] the question that you're asking no I'm
[51:55] asking you if if you believe that the
[51:57] thing people should do should maximize
[52:00] utility do they have a duty then to
[52:02] maximize utility or not that really
[52:05] depends on which subset of utility that
[52:07] depends on what you mean by the thing
[52:09] you're asking me and I asked you to
[52:11] explain what you mean if you asked so
[52:12] let me explain to you what like the
[52:14] concept of Ethics is if you ask me how I
[52:17] root my ethics and what I think people
[52:18] should do I can answer that I don't know
[52:20] why you screeching about Duty and
[52:22] overlap your ethics I don't think you
[52:24] know what these terms mean oh no I know
[52:27] what they mean root your ethics for me
[52:28] then ground on I can't let you run away
[52:30] from what I asked you what do you want
[52:33] what what outcomes do you want I don't
[52:38] I've already told you that my worldview
[52:41] is not based solely on outcomes that
[52:44] would be utility and consequentialism
[52:46] there's a high highly um masculine logic
[52:49] here it's my my ethics are not tied to
[52:52] reality so what do you mean they're not
[52:54] tied to reality I said they're not
[52:56] solely tied to outcomes so what are you
[52:59] trying so here's a here's an example of
[53:01] this I'll give you an example
[53:07] I'll ask you this directly is it I'm
[53:10] asking you a question is it immoral for
[53:12] somebody to have sex with a dead body is
[53:15] that a moral to you do you think it is
[53:17] yes okay so explain to me why I think
[53:20] you have a duty not to do so where does
[53:22] that Duty come from it's divine command
[53:24] now back to where I was answer divide I
[53:27] just answered four of your questions
[53:38] is it immoral to have sex with a dead
[53:41] body or not Bosh um yeah probably
[53:42] shouldn't do that seems bad okay why
[53:45] um because I think that if nothing else
[53:47] like leaving aside the biological
[53:48] answers for that I think we have very
[53:50] strong cultural precepts of uh right for
[53:52] the dead I think that this is a really
[53:54] like touchy ground because rights of the
[53:56] Dead is complicated because they're not
[53:57] like living people but there are things
[53:59] even in a utilitarian framework where
[54:00] you can acknowledge that there is a kind
[54:02] of broader cultural respect that we have
[54:04] for subjects that go outside the purview
[54:06] of pure human behavior so last question
[54:09] last question and then I'll answer yeah
[54:11] I just want to know what you want oh my
[54:13] God I'm almost done
[54:14] but then it's like it doesn't matter all
[54:17] things if all things were equal
[54:19] and a person having sex with a dead body
[54:21] did not negatively affect anybody
[54:24] through utility uh there was no negative
[54:27] utils that you could point to would you
[54:29] be for it uh for it I wouldn't be
[54:31] foreign
[54:37] utilitarianism now if you could stop
[54:39] projecting your Kink onto the discussion
[54:41] I would like why would this be against
[54:42] rural utilitarianism
[54:44] I I can't explain all ethical philosophy
[54:48] to you because I know what a really
[54:50] utilitarian is so then why are you
[54:52] asking me because a rule utilitarian
[54:54] would still have to follow utils in this
[54:56] particular case had all thing equal
[54:57] there is no there is no negative utils
[55:00] which are applied your answer should be
[55:03] as a utilitarian to say that that's fine
[55:05] I don't see how you could get away
[55:06] because the point of regardless of
[55:08] otherwise everything would just be act
[55:09] utilitarianism the point of real
[55:11] utilitarianism is that you have
[55:13] um a sort of social boundaries and
[55:15] guidelines and ethical expectations that
[55:18] exceed individual assessments of the
[55:20] utility unless they give because those
[55:21] give negative utilities equal there's no
[55:24] negative no you so I can't explain if
[55:27] you don't understand okay here's a good
[55:28] example okay imagine so it is unethical
[55:30] to punch somebody like out of nowhere
[55:32] that's generally not good you shouldn't
[55:33] do that however imagine a person had
[55:35] like Divine precog and they could know
[55:37] for an absolute fact that if they punch
[55:39] this one random dude on the street it
[55:41] will actually be good for them because
[55:43] when they go to the hospital for for the
[55:45] broken nose it'll be discovered that
[55:46] they have a um relatively benign brain
[55:49] cancer tumor so in reality punching them
[55:52] will be a way to help them get treatment
[55:54] early and will actually save 30 years of
[55:55] their life now right even under those
[55:57] circumstances if we could know for an
[55:59] absolute fact that the consequence of
[56:00] punching that person would be morally
[56:02] good I still think it would be morally
[56:04] right for them to be arrested the reason
[56:06] you think that is because there would be
[56:08] societal negative utils so that's why I
[56:10] said all things equal there's no
[56:12] societal negative utils why would it not
[56:15] be okay from your worldview for people
[56:17] to have sex with dead body if you're
[56:19] detaching this from ethics so much to
[56:21] the point where even ruling
[56:22] militarianism doesn't have any
[56:23] consideration you might as well be
[56:24] asking if it's ethical to a corpse and a
[56:27] dream like you're asking about something
[56:28] that can't happen in reality in reality
[56:30] the the consequences of rule utilitarian
[56:33] analysis would always apply because
[56:34] you're always subject to the broad you
[56:36] know what a hypothetical is a
[56:37] hypothetical
[56:41] can you please just tell me what outcome
[56:44] comes or what anything you want to do to
[56:48] reality I already told you multiple
[56:50] times first thing I would do is stop
[56:52] abortion second thing I would do is put
[56:54] a halt on underage on underage people
[56:56] being able to uh be allowed to have
[56:58] unfettered access to pornography okay
[57:00] thank you so no wait wait the ethics I
[57:01] wanted to know so you said device this
[57:03] would be Christian ethics Christian
[57:05] ethics Okay Christian okay so make those
[57:07] down for you so Chris don't well yes
[57:09] please I want to know what you're trying
[57:11] to do here so Christian so Christian
[57:13] ethics work around virtues and they work
[57:15] around duties okay virtue there is an
[57:18] overlap with outcomes sometimes because
[57:20] duties sometimes lead to outcomes which
[57:22] can be negative and so you're just
[57:24] duties accordingly what tells you what a
[57:26] duty is
[57:27] this is divine command for us Christians
[57:30] yeah so what tells you how do you know
[57:32] uh we would know this through church
[57:34] Authority through church
[57:36] Authority yes so just any old Pastor
[57:40] like your whole ethical system would
[57:41] change no churches are a whole holistic
[57:43] system there's only two churches which
[57:45] exist the Catholic church and the
[57:47] Orthodox Church there's a series of
[57:50] there's a series or Orthodox out of
[57:53] curiosity I'm Orthodox there's a series
[57:54] when did you convert
[57:56] two years ago oh I bet I'm sure
[58:00] okay right does this have to stay with
[58:02] anything do you have a reputation or not
[58:04] a refutation of what of what argument of
[58:06] what logic that there's only two
[58:08] holistic a whole holistic Church uh yeah
[58:10] I'd say that there are like a million
[58:12] Protestant churches yeah
[58:15] how can they how can a Protestant Church
[58:16] operate as a holistic church if they
[58:19] don't recognize Church Authority what is
[58:21] that they are their Church Authority
[58:23] that's the point they can't be their
[58:24] Church Authority because they believe in
[58:25] Solo scriptura they get all of their
[58:27] ethical commands Through the Bible alone
[58:30] okay so hold on really quick so um do
[58:33] you think so hold on which is correct
[58:34] then the Catholic or the Orthodox
[58:36] um uh Church Authority the Orthodox
[58:38] Church Authority is correct yeah okay so
[58:40] not the Catholic so even the cat well
[58:42] the Catholics recognize that the church
[58:43] authority of the Orthodox is also
[58:45] correct
[58:46] um okay so you agree then with the
[58:48] precepts of the current pope and all the
[58:49] statements that he's made no no no they
[58:51] agree with us we don't agree with that
[58:53] hold on he was chosen by God was he not
[58:55] no who uh then where in the Orthodox
[58:59] church we okay one more time you're not
[59:01] listening so just listen and you'll get
[59:03] this the Catholics agree with us in our
[59:07] church doctrine we don't agree with
[59:09] theirs so your doctrines are different
[59:13] uh yes we don't have popes but they they
[59:16] but they concede that we have correct
[59:18] Theology and church Authority yes
[59:21] um even though you disagree with them
[59:22] how does that work
[59:24] we don't agree with them they agree with
[59:27] us I just said this four times so right
[59:31] you've said it but it doesn't make sense
[59:38] this is Rel this is like I just said
[59:40] this part time so you've said it but it
[59:43] doesn't make sense so I'm asking does it
[59:44] that makes sense I'm trying to explain
[59:46] to you Ash agrees with me but I don't
[59:47] agree with fosh what's wrong with that
[59:49] statement so considering the fact that
[59:51] churches no no what's wrong with that
[59:52] statement I'm trying to answer my
[59:54] question
[59:55] every question I ask you I just answered
[59:57] all of you come on if you get so
[59:59] triggered we can't even talk there's no
[01:00:00] point in talking bro you just pivot stop
[01:00:02] pivoting yeah
[01:00:10] force him answering mine now I really
[01:00:13] did that like I didn't ask a question
[01:00:16] let's just let him ask this question I
[01:00:19] promise you after that if he doesn't
[01:00:21] answer your question I will force that
[01:00:22] as well why doesn't make no sense sure
[01:00:25] yeah um because churches and it's I know
[01:00:27] this for a fact with the Catholic church
[01:00:29] not only are there like different groups
[01:00:31] of Catholics right it's not just one
[01:00:32] group and there are groups of the
[01:00:33] Catholics who don't agree with the Pope
[01:00:34] and this not the other but also
[01:00:35] considering the fact that churches tend
[01:00:37] to have pretty holistic World Views when
[01:00:38] it comes to all of the precepts of the
[01:00:40] religious texts and authority and all
[01:00:41] the ways in which they should act and
[01:00:42] all their ethical precepts the idea that
[01:00:44] the Catholic Church could just wholesale
[01:00:46] endorse the Orthodox Church uh while the
[01:00:49] other way around doesn't really work if
[01:00:51] the Orthodox Church believes things that
[01:00:53] are contradictory to the Catholic Church
[01:00:54] the Catholic Church couldn't endorse
[01:00:55] those contradictory practices that
[01:00:57] doesn't help me understand I'm curious
[01:00:59] they agree with us on what and they
[01:01:02] agree with our Doctrine we do not agree
[01:01:04] with their Doctrine so it's like vah
[01:01:07] saying I agree with everything Andrew
[01:01:09] says okay but I'm still going to live my
[01:01:12] life and I would never say that
[01:01:13] differently than how Andrew does okay
[01:01:16] what do you do you can still both of
[01:01:18] both of these things can be true at the
[01:01:20] same time without any problem now back
[01:01:22] to my question
[01:01:31] I have to catch up on my religious
[01:01:34] history before I can challenge these big
[01:01:36] brain points but yeah so now kind of
[01:01:38] back to my question yes there's only two
[01:01:41] churches which have actual holistic
[01:01:44] views so Protestants generally speaking
[01:01:47] do not and they actually concede that
[01:01:49] they don't because they can't now when
[01:01:50] you're talking about Christian
[01:01:52] nationalism in and of itself of course I
[01:01:54] would always advocate for my church to
[01:01:57] be the church that was you know uh
[01:01:59] cooperating with the the government or
[01:02:01] even in some cases being the government
[01:02:03] if necessary but you yourself would
[01:02:05] advocate for the same thing with your
[01:02:07] communism you don't want Maga communism
[01:02:09] you don't want tanky communism you want
[01:02:13] vosh brand communism so the criticism
[01:02:16] applies to you as much as it applies to
[01:02:18] me
[01:02:23] okay so the question becomes is not is
[01:02:26] that not true okay
[01:02:28] that different people of different ideas
[01:02:30] yes I've noticed that happens sometimes
[01:02:31] in my day yeah so you would advocate for
[01:02:33] your brand of this so whatever criticism
[01:02:35] you want to give me for the fact that
[01:02:37] there's tons of sex of Christianity this
[01:02:39] also is true of Communism you have to
[01:02:41] contend with that as much as I do well
[01:02:42] there aren't any sects of Communism
[01:02:45] um there are different ideas sure uh but
[01:02:47] I guess like my curiosity would be what
[01:02:49] do you mean they're not sex what's a
[01:02:51] sect I think that sect is a religious
[01:02:53] term is it not does it just refer
[01:02:54] broadly to like different groups of
[01:02:56] people because if that's the case sure
[01:02:57] there are plenty of sects of Communism
[01:02:59] okay yeah gotcha assumed it was like a
[01:03:01] religious conversation
[01:03:03] um I don't know what this was in
[01:03:05] response to uh I guess I guess the issue
[01:03:07] is that I still have no idea what your
[01:03:09] like fundamental ethical basis is I
[01:03:10] think that the human what is Christian
[01:03:12] then tell me what Christian ethics are
[01:03:13] how the should I know you all of
[01:03:15] you I just explained it completely
[01:03:17] incoherent every time I talk to a
[01:03:18] Christian so I have no idea I will never
[01:03:20] know I I don't think I asked you when
[01:03:22] you got mad at me so I feel like I don't
[01:03:24] get mad at you I explained them to you
[01:03:26] so okay where does Your Divine command
[01:03:30] Theory come from God okay how do you
[01:03:33] know your God is the correct one
[01:03:34] and well that regardless even if I was
[01:03:37] wrong let's just assume for a second I
[01:03:39] was completely wrong and my God was not
[01:03:41] the correct one this really doesn't
[01:03:43] change the question of Christian
[01:03:45] nationalism and whether I think that
[01:03:47] both the results and the things that I
[01:03:49] want to see in society would be correct
[01:03:51] so regardless if even if all of the
[01:03:54] beliefs from which I derived the vine
[01:03:56] command would be false the in the
[01:03:59] integration with the state would still
[01:04:00] be what I would advocate for just like
[01:04:02] you the Communists even if your beliefs
[01:04:05] are fundamentally false based on nothing
[01:04:07] more than your ideas uh you still want
[01:04:09] to integrate them and see them in
[01:04:11] society so we're not here to have a
[01:04:13] religious debate over whether God is
[01:04:15] real we're here to have a debate over
[01:04:16] whether or not Christian or Christian
[01:04:18] nationalism is something that uh can
[01:04:21] even be done I propose that it is and I
[01:04:24] propose that the ideas are better than
[01:04:25] your communist Outlook which we're much
[01:04:27] closer to than we are a Christian
[01:04:29] Outlook God willing inshallah yes of
[01:04:32] course so um again how do you know that
[01:04:34] your God is real like how do you know
[01:04:35] that you have the right set of morals
[01:04:37] why does that what is that if you can
[01:04:38] tell me what this has to do with the
[01:04:40] topic of the debate I'll engage with it
[01:04:41] it's literally the foundational position
[01:04:44] of your entire ethical system okay well
[01:04:47] then why how do you know communism is
[01:04:48] true
[01:04:50] okay sure I mean we can talk about my
[01:04:51] ethical system so as a utilitarian I
[01:04:54] believe in maximizing a set of axioms
[01:04:56] that I've arbitrarily determined to be
[01:04:58] um things that I prioritize I think that
[01:05:00] you could use so you don't know it's
[01:05:01] true
[01:05:01] I don't think you can make metaphysical
[01:05:03] assessments well then then why are you
[01:05:04] asking me that's true because I'm not
[01:05:06] making a determinative statement about
[01:05:08] my medicine can you okay is anything
[01:05:10] ever true no wait hold well I mean that
[01:05:12] really depends on what you mean by true
[01:05:14] but you're the one okay no objective
[01:05:17] truth can you know something is 100 true
[01:05:19] then you know that that's it really
[01:05:21] depends on the definitions you'd have to
[01:05:22] Define all of your terms but also you're
[01:05:24] the one the legitimacy of your claims
[01:05:27] sort of rests upon the idea that your
[01:05:29] your moral beliefs your duties your
[01:05:31] precepts your obligations or whatever
[01:05:33] are ones that I should respect whereas
[01:05:35] my axioms are things like human
[01:05:37] happiness which I challenge you if you
[01:05:39] don't respect things like human
[01:05:40] happiness I would argue that you don't
[01:05:42] even have a right to be dictating policy
[01:05:44] for anybody because based on what you
[01:05:46] just said that your system is arbitrary
[01:05:48] so why should I respect an arbitrary
[01:05:50] system that doesn't even claim to have
[01:05:51] any sort of command other than what you
[01:05:53] come up with out of your own brain is
[01:05:55] your preference this is like you getting
[01:05:57] upset with somebody else because you're
[01:05:58] arguing that their decisions aren't even
[01:06:00] made by the invisible friend that you
[01:06:01] you have like this isn't a battle well
[01:06:04] who are your decisions made by you do
[01:06:06] you believe that human happiness is a
[01:06:08] worthwhile goal in terms of maximization
[01:06:10] I think that happiness happiness is
[01:06:12] something that should be adjusted for
[01:06:13] but it's not the primary duty of people
[01:06:15] to make other people happy adjusted for
[01:06:17] okay so do you think that a world in
[01:06:20] which people are happier is a better
[01:06:21] world than a world in which people are
[01:06:23] less happy all other things being equal
[01:06:25] if all things were equal I would say
[01:06:27] that uh if you had a happier population
[01:06:30] that would be better than not having a
[01:06:32] happier population yes than a less happy
[01:06:34] population with all things equal now let
[01:06:36] me ask that question back to you okay if
[01:06:39] all things were equal and people
[01:06:40] prospered but they were less happy than
[01:06:43] a nation that prospered less and that
[01:06:44] nation was happier which nation would
[01:06:46] you prefer to the to uh uh Prosper which
[01:06:49] one would you prefer to live it what do
[01:06:51] you mean by prosper
[01:06:52] so their health is better their Dynamics
[01:06:54] are better almost everything is better
[01:06:56] they're just a little bit less happy
[01:06:57] than the other Nation a little bit less
[01:07:00] happy yeah just a little bit less well I
[01:07:02] feel like those things have kind of be
[01:07:03] factored into the happiness but if
[01:07:05] you're arguing like people I just said
[01:07:07] all things equal vosh I answered your
[01:07:09] question good faith answered minding
[01:07:11] good faith if all things are equal one
[01:07:14] population is just slightly less happy
[01:07:16] but the other population by every other
[01:07:18] metric is doing better than the
[01:07:20] population that's just slightly less
[01:07:22] happy that's not all other things it's
[01:07:23] your moral imperative to go to the to
[01:07:25] the population Which is less happy you
[01:07:27] can't yeah
[01:07:28] hypothetical all things you can't say
[01:07:30] all things equal and then say every
[01:07:32] other thing is different you can't ask
[01:07:34] me the same question wait hold on I'm
[01:07:37] answering your questions this is the
[01:07:38] most used
[01:07:39] oh my God I'm answering your question
[01:07:42] you're so like right off the cuff you're
[01:07:43] so ready to be treated I was just
[01:07:45] pointing out it's funny that you would
[01:07:46] say all things be equal but then you
[01:07:48] would say everything is different
[01:07:50] um the uh I guess that would I guess I'm
[01:07:52] just struggling to imagine but if it's
[01:07:54] like they're much healthier and more
[01:07:55] prosperous I guess I think it would
[01:07:57] really depend on other circumstances
[01:07:58] because there are other axiomatic values
[01:08:00] that I think you could adjust for so
[01:08:01] then happiness is not the primary value
[01:08:03] so then your argument's stupid your
[01:08:06] argument's stupid
[01:08:08] so no it's um one of them that's why I
[01:08:11] said axioms with an S there are multiple
[01:08:13] things that you would try to adjust so
[01:08:15] why tell me why tell me Andrew we can't
[01:08:17] accept your system because it doesn't
[01:08:19] make happiness the primary thing and
[01:08:22] then when I give you the same exact
[01:08:23] example back you also claim happiness
[01:08:26] can't be the primary thing I didn't say
[01:08:28] that multitudes of things that you have
[01:08:29] to adjust for vosh okay so what are the
[01:08:32] multitudes of things for you what divine
[01:08:33] so I would look at virtues I would look
[01:08:36] at dude I would look at outcomes I would
[01:08:38] look at all of these things
[01:08:40] that's a holistic so you notice how
[01:08:43] every time I ask you for specific
[01:08:44] questions about what it is you're trying
[01:08:45] to do or what changes you're trying to
[01:08:47] make you sort of generalize by waving
[01:08:49] your hands at this broad vague
[01:08:50] indeterminable like group of Virtues
[01:08:53] that you probably don't actually
[01:08:54] subscribe to or believe in early on in
[01:08:56] this debate you pointed which virtues do
[01:08:57] you think I don't subscribe to you
[01:08:58] haven't listed anymore so I can't even
[01:09:00] asked me what they are I have I've been
[01:09:03] asking dude you can't be like bro you
[01:09:05] have it you didn't even ask I've been
[01:09:07] asking for like half an hour for you
[01:09:10] you say give me a broad overview when I
[01:09:12] do you say no why didn't you give me
[01:09:14] anything more specifically
[01:09:16] fair to be fair Andrew did say about uh
[01:09:20] Banning abortion that's one he gave and
[01:09:22] the second one he gave is
[01:09:24] um I I know there was one more or
[01:09:25] something about so those are policy
[01:09:27] positions but why for those two I've
[01:09:30] answered every question you've had and
[01:09:31] you've been as evasive as possible so
[01:09:34] why are these things virtues what is a
[01:09:37] virtue give me an example policies to
[01:09:39] maximize what
[01:09:41] so uh if you're talking about virtues
[01:09:44] themselves when you were talking about
[01:09:46] um virtue as morality virtues are the
[01:09:49] building blocks of what makes a person a
[01:09:51] person so we're looking at the actual
[01:09:53] behaviors of the person to judge whether
[01:09:55] or not the person is moral that would be
[01:09:57] a virtue okay so I can give you many of
[01:10:00] those types of Virtues I think you would
[01:10:01] likely agree with them but with the
[01:10:03] virtue in Christian ethics comes Duty so
[01:10:06] you have a duty for instance to obey uh
[01:10:08] Lord Jesus Christ teachings you have
[01:10:10] duties to do these things as well so
[01:10:12] these things work together the church
[01:10:15] itself has given virtues which are
[01:10:17] passed down from Christ Lord who
[01:10:19] explains what these virtues are supposed
[01:10:20] to be and how you are supposed to act
[01:10:23] and behave in society and how you're
[01:10:25] supposed to act and behave towards other
[01:10:26] people or untowards to other people and
[01:10:28] why should under your system why should
[01:10:31] I listen to yours it's the same
[01:10:32] criticism I keep answering this and I
[01:10:35] don't think no no please please you
[01:10:37] can't keep misunderstanding same answer
[01:10:39] because it's axiomatic so
[01:10:41] that's not what I was going to say you
[01:10:43] don't even understand what your answer
[01:10:44] was your answer was just a taxi matter
[01:10:46] you have to earn the right to be blase
[01:10:48] and dismissive about another person's
[01:10:49] ideas you have to know what they are
[01:10:51] first so the difference is I don't think
[01:10:54] you can make determinative claims about
[01:10:57] the metaphysical I think that in order
[01:10:59] to have any ethical system you have to
[01:11:02] admit that there is a degree of
[01:11:04] arbitrarity and bias and you have to
[01:11:06] work from that the problem that I have
[01:11:08] with Divine command theory is not that
[01:11:10] it's metaphysical in nature because so
[01:11:12] is mine the difference is that I
[01:11:14] acknowledge the arbitrary something I
[01:11:16] think everyone has to why would that
[01:11:18] make it better so you have to let me
[01:11:19] finish because you make it up so it's
[01:11:22] like you so no there's a huge it's the
[01:11:25] same criticism applies you are so ready
[01:11:28] to interrupt okay so there is a huge
[01:11:30] difference well otherwise you're gonna
[01:11:31] die every time for the next year you
[01:11:33] could learn from it there is a huge
[01:11:34] difference between
[01:11:36] um saying I don't think we can make
[01:11:38] determinative metaphysical statements
[01:11:40] however I
[01:11:46] go ahead however if we decide to
[01:11:50] prioritize these things I think it's
[01:11:52] good for people so for example I don't
[01:11:54] think it's possible to objectively yes
[01:11:56] that's the point the difference is I'm
[01:11:59] the one I'm the one 10 000 years ago who
[01:12:01] says I don't know why the lightning
[01:12:03] strikes and you're the one who says that
[01:12:04] it must be because the gods are angry
[01:12:06] you make fun of me for not being willing
[01:12:08] to make a statement you can't justify
[01:12:10] but that's your weakness and my logic so
[01:12:12] I can acknowledge you don't have any
[01:12:14] logic weakness of metaphysical arguments
[01:12:17] and I think it's a necessary
[01:12:18] presupposition when discussing ethics
[01:12:19] your arguments rely on a presumptive
[01:12:22] statement about the metaphysical God
[01:12:24] that you can't justify and that is the
[01:12:27] critical difference if you ask me how do
[01:12:29] you know that human happiness is good to
[01:12:32] prioritize for I would answer you know
[01:12:34] what I don't think I can objectively
[01:12:35] prove that I think I can gesture in what
[01:12:38] human happiness has done for the world
[01:12:39] then you have now and I think that it
[01:12:41] makes people people better I think that
[01:12:42] so then you whereas
[01:12:45] you keep trying to like jump in okay so
[01:12:48] when you're almost done how much longer
[01:12:50] does that mean do you want me to give
[01:12:51] you a timer
[01:12:54] yeah so um what the difference with you
[01:12:57] is that for your positions to make sense
[01:12:59] you're referring to like the word of God
[01:13:01] you have to explain why that should be
[01:13:03] listened to my argument for why my
[01:13:05] axioms are relevant is to gesture at the
[01:13:07] world and say is happiness not good
[01:13:09] that's the most I can do yours is to say
[01:13:12] well well
[01:13:15] you you you you also can't prove your
[01:13:18] axioms which I I know that's the point
[01:13:21] but you have to prove yours because
[01:13:23] otherwise you're essentially engaging in
[01:13:26] like a post-modernist defense of not
[01:13:28] believing in God while repeating his
[01:13:30] suppositions it makes no sense as stated
[01:13:33] before and you just demonstrated any
[01:13:37] criticism you move towards me is equally
[01:13:40] applied to you you just got done stating
[01:13:42] that your system
[01:13:43] let me finish that your system is
[01:13:46] arbitrary that your system is not
[01:13:48] grounded that you yourself and your
[01:13:50] axioms cannot be demonstrated while
[01:13:52] demanding that I demonstrate mine
[01:13:54] however if I'm going from your world
[01:13:56] view which I'm just trying to do I'm
[01:13:58] just even just trying to go from your
[01:14:00] world view the utilitarian worldview I
[01:14:02] still can make a better case for why
[01:14:04] Christian ethics in society is far
[01:14:08] superior to your libertarian communism
[01:14:10] and have made good Arguments for why
[01:14:13] that is the case even just using birth
[01:14:15] rates and you have refuted none of it
[01:14:17] this is a joke by the way you say that
[01:14:20] you can't make a deterministic statement
[01:14:22] which is a deterministic statement how
[01:14:25] again how dumb are you posh
[01:14:29] again I refer to my anecdote about 10
[01:14:31] 000 years ago watching Lightning crash
[01:14:33] in the sky where you're like dude yeah I
[01:14:36] think it's the angry man in the sky you
[01:14:38] don't you don't even know what it is you
[01:14:39] admit you don't know so now you're
[01:14:41] saying that I'm wrong when I say it's
[01:14:42] angry men in the sky it's like it's like
[01:14:45] returning to like primeval logical
[01:14:47] fallacies I I feel like you're in like I
[01:14:49] could the shadow puppets could dance on
[01:14:51] the walls in front of you and you could
[01:14:52] like have your entire ethical well vosh
[01:14:55] do you agree with me that you would not
[01:14:57] actually have to demonstrate the
[01:14:58] existence of God in order to have a
[01:15:00] nation which was governed by a church or
[01:15:04] who had a synergistic relationship with
[01:15:06] a church even if they couldn't prove God
[01:15:08] because if they wanted to make it you
[01:15:10] agree to that then that has nothing to
[01:15:11] do with the debate me proving God is
[01:15:13] real debash uh oh if you want to make an
[01:15:15] argument for the existence of that state
[01:15:17] then yeah you kind of would need to
[01:15:18] because why else would I care about the
[01:15:20] responsibilities laid out by Christ why
[01:15:22] would we care about the responsibilities
[01:15:23] laid out by utilitarians which are
[01:15:25] arbitrary and can't be demonstrated by
[01:15:27] the utilitarian's own mouth so again I I
[01:15:30] don't know how many times I can keep
[01:15:31] explaining this to you but you seem to
[01:15:33] have a fundamental misunderstanding of
[01:15:34] what a prescriptive meta-ethical
[01:15:36] statement is you know what I think hold
[01:15:38] on because this could go on forever and
[01:15:39] like the whining of of Christians is fun
[01:15:41] up to a point I don't think you actually
[01:15:43] believe in any of this including the the
[01:15:44] religion I think that we saw this at the
[01:15:47] very beginning of the debate pretended
[01:15:49] that human happiness nothing is a
[01:15:51] declarative statement is true according
[01:15:52] to you sound like a nagging wife don't
[01:15:55] you the way you keep talking over other
[01:15:56] people but your voice will never be as
[01:15:58] deep as well
[01:15:59] you can't hit my base I agree in
[01:16:03] sociology
[01:16:06] of Sociology are you threatened by my
[01:16:09] education did you know that liberals
[01:16:11] tend to be better well at some point
[01:16:12] maybe you would use it to make an
[01:16:14] argument it's like I'm trying to explain
[01:16:16] sociology to like a monkey and it is
[01:16:20] failing me somewhat
[01:16:22] um so I can't convince you that you're
[01:16:24] meta-ethically uh let me try
[01:16:26] this okay that's because uh you don't
[01:16:28] know what you don't know what meta
[01:16:29] ethics are right I agree so it's like
[01:16:30] you'd have to do too much work to begin
[01:16:32] with the problem ultimately is that you
[01:16:33] don't believe in anything you're saying
[01:16:35] uh if a personally believed in Christian
[01:16:38] ethics there are a trillion things you
[01:16:39] would care to fix about the world the
[01:16:41] cruelty and graft advice and sin the
[01:16:44] hate trade and misery but you are
[01:16:46] largely fine I would require people hold
[01:16:48] on hold on he made a very strong
[01:16:51] statement let's let him try to explain
[01:16:53] what his uh reasoning is go ahead see I
[01:16:56] know Christians a lot of my extended
[01:16:57] family are Christians and I know
[01:16:59] Communists oh you literally cannot help
[01:17:00] yourself
[01:17:02] um go ahead and uh and a lot of them you
[01:17:04] know uh when you talk about what is sin
[01:17:06] you know what is what is uh of concern
[01:17:07] of Christ you know there is so much
[01:17:09] misery in this world but I've seen your
[01:17:12] politics and I know what you believe and
[01:17:13] you just believe the same that like
[01:17:15] regular fascists believe more or less
[01:17:16] like the Christian conservatism thing is
[01:17:18] often like promoted by people with a
[01:17:21] very low investment of Christianity it's
[01:17:22] the same way that fascists wrapped
[01:17:24] themselves in the flag before now I'm a
[01:17:26] fascist
[01:17:27] your name was big papa fascist yeah but
[01:17:29] you also know that that was a debate
[01:17:31] handle that was explained to you okay
[01:17:32] that was right yeah okay
[01:17:34] um wait wait can you tell me what
[01:17:37] policies I want the Christian
[01:17:39] nationalism angle no you can't make the
[01:17:41] claim I'm a fascist and you claimed I'm
[01:17:43] a fascist oh my god dude you is this
[01:17:45] gonna be every time I talk more than
[01:17:47] five seconds like I can let you talk for
[01:17:49] a while I admit I'm talkative too but
[01:17:52] like holy
[01:17:53] um the like I I don't think anyone who
[01:17:55] was genuinely motivated by the word of
[01:17:57] Christ could ever have a conversation
[01:17:59] like this and be like oh you know what I
[01:18:00] would change uh abortion like there are
[01:18:03] so many trillions of things a real
[01:18:05] Christian would be outraged at like
[01:18:06] Donald Trump's presidency for example
[01:18:08] because he's one of the most flagrant
[01:18:09] grifters and most openly anti-human
[01:18:11] individuals to ever occupy the office
[01:18:13] but it's always like oh so what what
[01:18:16] angle are you gonna bring what Christian
[01:18:18] angle are you going to bring to
[01:18:19] governance oh the exact same stuff every
[01:18:21] other right winger does with very little
[01:18:22] emphasis on what Israel Christianity
[01:18:50] do he made the qualifier he claimed I
[01:18:53] was a fascist I would like you to give
[01:18:55] me the list of fascism that you go by
[01:18:58] and then what we'll do is we'll go one
[01:18:59] by one and see which one of us is more
[01:19:01] fast notice how how um he wants to well
[01:19:04] hold on notice how like he gets
[01:19:06] triggered by one notice
[01:19:09] he can't do it
[01:19:11] um he like in a broader point about the
[01:19:14] um political positions
[01:19:18] for a while yeah well I'm trying to move
[01:19:20] the argument for you
[01:19:23] I know and I'm gonna move it right after
[01:19:26] we get through the
[01:19:35] answer again
[01:19:46] you often do this during debates where
[01:19:49] you make these I'm muting both okay I'm
[01:19:51] sorry I hate doing this but okay so boss
[01:19:53] you did make that claim it's a pretty
[01:19:54] strong statement so I think Andrew is
[01:19:57] within his rice to ask for clarification
[01:19:59] and why you want that and after that I
[01:20:01] promise you we can move the conversation
[01:20:02] forward okay I'm meeting both of you
[01:20:07] go ahead boss am I back
[01:20:10] yeah yeah it's good to be back
[01:20:12] um
[01:20:14] what was the question Andrew is asking
[01:20:17] why do you think I'm a fascist what are
[01:20:19] the things that make me oh well
[01:20:21] literally he called himself big papa
[01:20:22] fascist but if you want like an actual
[01:20:24] like I don't know reasoning beliefs I
[01:20:25] would say that being like a political
[01:20:26] advocate for Donald Trump the Republican
[01:20:28] Party would count towards one
[01:20:29] um I think also I'm pretty sure like I I
[01:20:31] didn't I didn't expect he would like
[01:20:33] pretend to be offended over this because
[01:20:34] we both know perfectly well he fits my
[01:20:36] definition but I'm pretty sure that
[01:20:37] literally every time I've seen him make
[01:20:38] any prescriptive statement about
[01:20:39] politics it perfectly lines up with what
[01:20:41] a fascist would believe in so he's like
[01:20:43] anti-immigration he makes statements
[01:20:45] about like the like Western nationalism
[01:20:46] and like the white birth rates declining
[01:20:48] he talks about like a need to uh get rid
[01:20:50] of um degeneracy and imposition of like
[01:20:53] far-right conservative Politics as a way
[01:20:55] of getting saying he's like nodding
[01:20:56] along with all this this was just a
[01:20:57] waste of time he just wants to like
[01:20:59] filibuster before we get into the actual
[01:21:01] why are those fascists uh oh my god dude
[01:21:08] what I want you to do because you've do
[01:21:10] you've done this I've seen you do this
[01:21:12] how is this a policy what is why I just
[01:21:15] let you flash my turn uh really quick
[01:21:17] Alex it's my turn not really quick after
[01:21:20] I answered his question didn't we move
[01:21:22] on did I not just no it's my turn
[01:21:26] mask one or two follow-up questions it
[01:21:28] is it is a fair question because you did
[01:21:30] make a yeah I answered it so those all
[01:21:33] meet my standards for what he doesn't
[01:21:34] want to allow me to he doesn't want me
[01:21:37] to speak what's going on Andrew asked
[01:21:38] one or two qualifying questions and then
[01:21:40] we can move on I think you go by a list
[01:21:43] for what you consider to be fascist
[01:21:45] would you be willing to pull up that
[01:21:47] list and compare them with me 1v1 so
[01:21:50] that we can determine which of us
[01:21:51] actually follows more fascist policies
[01:21:53] than the other dude the whole point was
[01:21:56] moving this is like the hardest anyone
[01:21:58] has ever filibustered while talking to
[01:21:59] me um I'm sorry in that broader point
[01:22:02] you made you call me a fascist um here
[01:22:03] are 17 examples of you being fascist I'm
[01:22:05] you explain to me how every single one
[01:22:07] of those fascists if you want to like
[01:22:09] indefinitely hand pack back and forth I
[01:22:11] guess we can but I consider this a
[01:22:13] concession on everything regarding
[01:22:14] Christianity I don't give a what do
[01:22:16] you consider a concession are you
[01:22:17] willing to do that or not just say no
[01:22:19] I'm not willing to do I just think it's
[01:22:20] funny that you get very I just said I
[01:22:22] think it's funny that you can make
[01:22:23] accusations and then you won't back them
[01:22:25] like because you get really angry uh
[01:22:28] whenever whenever I've already actually
[01:22:31] I've already set up the argument I've
[01:22:33] already I've already said then do it do
[01:22:34] it then do it
[01:22:38] he's like trying to Alpha mail me he's
[01:22:40] like uh after an hour and a half of
[01:22:42] being talked over time for me to bring
[01:22:43] out my big Tate pants uh are you gonna
[01:22:46] do it you want to not be a coward you're
[01:22:47] still not doing it for uh can you um
[01:22:51] it is a fair qualifying question well so
[01:22:55] so Alex the problem is so Alex so Alex
[01:22:58] just to be clear what he's suggesting is
[01:23:01] uh that forever so in a broader point
[01:23:03] that I was making about him not
[01:23:04] believing in Christianity which he
[01:23:06] doesn't uh he gets upset that I call him
[01:23:08] a fascist when he literally self-labels
[01:23:10] a fascist where's that list hold on he
[01:23:12] asks hey can you qualify that I then
[01:23:14] list like 12 things that I say are
[01:23:17] Fascist of him which he nods along to
[01:23:19] always and now what he's saying is let's
[01:23:22] go over an exact 14 point definition of
[01:23:25] fascism so that on every single one we
[01:23:27] can Inc like check off every point on
[01:23:30] every claim Aid now Alex
[01:23:33] we can do this us but I did want to
[01:23:37] debate Christian nationalism and I will
[01:23:39] admit this does just seem like a pivot
[01:23:40] away from the subject because he knows
[01:23:42] you called me the fascist I didn't call
[01:23:43] you anything you called yourself the
[01:23:45] fascist actually Andrew okay no you
[01:23:47] called me the fact yeah I'm gonna make a
[01:23:49] reasonable compromise we'll spend two to
[01:23:53] three minutes uh Andrew can ask us
[01:23:56] questions qualifying questions after
[01:23:57] that we will move on to conversation but
[01:24:00] for those two minutes uh vosh I do want
[01:24:02] you to answer the questions that he
[01:24:03] asked and then we're gonna ask me direct
[01:24:05] questions Andrew not like crosstalk
[01:24:08] where do you get your definition of
[01:24:10] fascism from
[01:24:11] um I think that like most broader
[01:24:13] socio-political definitions you kind of
[01:24:15] pull from a wide varieties of texts but
[01:24:17] for the most part I referred to Umberto
[01:24:19] echo's 14 points yes I agree that you do
[01:24:22] and I've seen you do it can you pull up
[01:24:24] those 14 points and we'll go through
[01:24:26] them Point by point and I will see if
[01:24:29] they apply more to you or more to me do
[01:24:31] you think we can do that in the
[01:24:32] remaining one to two minutes there was a
[01:24:33] lot let's just pick you know what just
[01:24:35] pick your favorite too my favorite two
[01:24:37] let's just do two yeah sure
[01:24:47] fascists
[01:24:51] do hold on let me find the one that
[01:24:53] actually there we go not the one that
[01:24:54] just lists like the uh the simplified
[01:24:56] version
[01:24:58] okay so let me read these all out loud
[01:25:01] in the spirit and the well I need to
[01:25:04] pick your two well I don't remember
[01:25:05] everything from that I've only read this
[01:25:07] a couple so you can't pick you can't
[01:25:09] pick two even though you just agreed to
[01:25:10] do that
[01:25:11] let's let's tell him go through the list
[01:25:14] yeah
[01:25:17] um okay
[01:25:18] so number one is the cult of tradition
[01:25:21] one has only to look at the syllabus of
[01:25:24] every fascist movement in order to find
[01:25:25] the major traditionalist thinkers the
[01:25:28] Nazi gnosis was nourished by
[01:25:30] traditionalists and credicists and
[01:25:31] occult elements number two the rejection
[01:25:34] of modernism quote the enlightenment the
[01:25:36] Age of Reason is seen as the beginning
[01:25:38] of modern depravity in this sense Aura
[01:25:41] fascism can be defined as irrationalism
[01:25:44] number three The Cult of action for
[01:25:46] action's sake action being beautiful in
[01:25:48] itself it must be taken before or
[01:25:50] without any previous reflection thinking
[01:25:52] is a form of emasculation number four
[01:25:54] disagreement is treason
[01:25:57] the critical spirit makes distinctions
[01:25:59] and it distinguishes a sign of modernism
[01:26:01] just give me two options we don't need
[01:26:02] the whole list
[01:26:03] why are you letting him go through the
[01:26:05] whole list Alex he agreed to two yeah
[01:26:07] he's filibustering the entire debate
[01:26:09] okay listen Marsh gave like four or five
[01:26:12] let's just work with what he gave you
[01:26:14] yeah which of those two which two do you
[01:26:16] want to pick vosh and see let's see how
[01:26:17] they apply only to me and not to you
[01:26:20] um sure okay how about number two the
[01:26:23] rejection of modernism do you want me to
[01:26:25] reread the quote associated with it
[01:26:27] the the quote associated with it from
[01:26:29] whom I I believe it's a quote from
[01:26:32] Umberto Echo when he make sure that it
[01:26:33] is and not from a third party Source
[01:26:35] okay
[01:26:37] um pretty sure I've seen this one before
[01:26:38] but sure let me see well Echo is Herman
[01:26:41] claiming there's one yeah I've seen this
[01:26:42] before in other websites as well so it's
[01:26:44] definitely not just openculture.com
[01:26:45] that's uh referring to it but if you
[01:26:47] want sure uh let me Google search the
[01:26:50] quote uh yes a practical list for
[01:26:53] identifying fascists from Umberto Echo
[01:26:55] it is directly quoted from him yes
[01:26:57] okay okay let's let Andrew address that
[01:27:00] so first let's go with the rejection of
[01:27:03] modernism does this in your world view
[01:27:06] mean a rejection of Ethics which built
[01:27:09] the society or a rejection of modernity
[01:27:12] when it comes to how Society is acting
[01:27:14] the enlightenment when he talks about
[01:27:16] modernism he's talking about modernity
[01:27:18] and the geopolitical sense so just
[01:27:20] Enlightenment Enlightenment principles
[01:27:22] are anti-communist Bosh in his words the
[01:27:25] enlightenment the Age of Reason is seen
[01:27:27] as the beginning of modern deprivity yes
[01:27:29] but in communism is anti-enlightenment
[01:27:32] uh no not at all yes absolutely Karl
[01:27:35] Marx has literally described as a
[01:27:38] modernist uh philosopher and economist
[01:27:41] by who
[01:27:43] literally everyone who describes him he
[01:27:46] objectively fits he is literally not no
[01:27:48] no listen sure when you're talking about
[01:27:51] modernity specifically modernity
[01:27:55] when you're talking about modernity Carl
[01:27:57] I need you to explain how it is that I
[01:28:00] reject modernity I don't reject
[01:28:02] modernity I reject an uh ethical system
[01:28:06] which I'm contrary to so just a moment
[01:28:08] okay so I Googled is Karl Marx a
[01:28:09] modernist I I hadn't seen this brought
[01:28:11] up before in my many classes on the
[01:28:13] subject Marx and Engels offered a
[01:28:15] profoundly modernistic critique of
[01:28:17] capitalism and then it's from a
[01:28:18] university of Warwick page called
[01:28:20] modernism and Marxism you said
[01:28:22] post-modernist no I said modernist he's
[01:28:24] not postmodernist
[01:28:25] um okay but that's what you said just so
[01:28:27] you know okay let's let's finish good uh
[01:28:30] it says is Marxism a part of modernism
[01:28:32] this is from Marx and philosophy Society
[01:28:35] um dot org dot UK uh part one in some
[01:28:37] situation marks as a leading figure of
[01:28:39] modernism so uh the thing is Marx and
[01:28:43] communist thinkers in general or at the
[01:28:45] very least Marx because some Communists
[01:28:46] you know you know you can't deal with
[01:28:47] these guys certainly with me uh are very
[01:28:49] much post Enlightenment thinkers uh born
[01:28:51] of the Age of Reason
[01:28:53] um and a a Believers in Liberal social
[01:28:57] values I mean Karl Marx was a
[01:28:59] progressive of his day wrote to Abraham
[01:29:01] Lincoln to convince him to help to free
[01:29:02] the slaves
[01:29:03] um his writings were an attempt to hold
[01:29:06] capitalism to account for not fulfilling
[01:29:09] the promises of modernism of liberalism
[01:29:12] and what about his critique that he
[01:29:14] wrote about Enlightenment humanism and
[01:29:17] from a revolutionary ecological
[01:29:19] perspective where he seemed to argue
[01:29:21] against these post-enlightenment
[01:29:22] principles which you are so adamant that
[01:29:25] only fascists hold uh no anyone can
[01:29:28] criticize things and what about the fact
[01:29:30] that Marx himself was very anti-jewish
[01:29:33] there's no doubt that that's true either
[01:29:34] so all of these things yeah all of these
[01:29:37] things these unfortunately have been
[01:29:39] popular in both pre and post
[01:29:41] Enlightenment Europe yeah but the thing
[01:29:43] is vosh is that no I don't think that
[01:29:45] number two does not apply to you you
[01:29:48] seem to reject the modernist principles
[01:29:50] as well at least postmodernists and you
[01:29:53] seem to want to move towards your
[01:29:55] communist worldview I don't I don't see
[01:29:57] how this doesn't apply to you you pick
[01:29:59] another one
[01:30:01] basically every definition you can find
[01:30:04] online is a modernist
[01:30:06] no I don't think that uh I don't think
[01:30:09] when we say modernists we're talking
[01:30:10] about post-modernists which is what you
[01:30:11] referenced and responded to no modernist
[01:30:14] he like he's he's a modernist okay well
[01:30:17] Christians are modernists too I don't
[01:30:19] know what your point is no Christianity
[01:30:21] is a pre-modernist system you but by
[01:30:26] what metric the ethics no the
[01:30:28] enlightenment a post or
[01:30:30] pre-enlightenment era
[01:30:35] Enlightenment ethics
[01:30:37] um well I did say two minutes for this
[01:30:40] we've been going off five minutes I do
[01:30:42] want to redirect of course of course uh
[01:30:44] yeah I don't want to linger on this too
[01:30:45] long it's it's about ethics and it's
[01:30:47] about political economy for Marx yeah so
[01:30:49] would you say it's the ethical
[01:30:51] distinction that makes you a modernist
[01:30:53] or is it a rejection of the material
[01:30:55] that makes you a modernist well that
[01:30:57] really depends on why you're rejecting
[01:30:59] it for example like Marx rejected
[01:31:01] hegelian thought on the ideological
[01:31:03] dialectic but Marx is still arguably a
[01:31:06] kind of alien his rejection is an
[01:31:08] iteration upon a pre-existing Trend like
[01:31:10] for example you know if if you uh if
[01:31:13] you're Adam Smith and you're writing
[01:31:14] like you know a systemic economic
[01:31:16] critique of private previous like
[01:31:18] economic forms which are themselves post
[01:31:20] Enlightenment you're not rejecting
[01:31:21] modernity what you're doing is trying to
[01:31:23] improve upon it but you know so is there
[01:31:25] any problem with holding Christian
[01:31:28] Ethics in modernity no you are literally
[01:31:32] a that is literally a pre-enlightenment
[01:31:34] belief why would that be a
[01:31:37] pre-enlightenment belief there are
[01:31:38] Christians who exist post Enlightenment
[01:31:40] and by the way just so you understand
[01:31:43] that actually doesn't make any sense on
[01:31:46] its face why what enlightenment is
[01:31:49] literally defending Divine command
[01:31:51] clearing and arguing that he's a post
[01:31:52] Enlightenment like you're gonna tell me
[01:31:54] audience Divine command Theory yeah why
[01:31:56] won't you tell why don't you answer the
[01:31:58] question Alex this is an infinite
[01:31:59] Wormhole
[01:32:01] wait Andrew to be fair I did say we're
[01:32:04] only going to talk about this for two
[01:32:05] minutes but what I will do is I will let
[01:32:07] you on this topic give you most
[01:32:09] Enlightenment thinkers most
[01:32:10] Enlightenment thinkers were Christians
[01:32:12] so that's why I'm making the distinction
[01:32:14] between ethics and what he considers
[01:32:16] materialism pick your second one vosh
[01:32:18] this one definitely applies to you
[01:32:23] Andrew I did say it was gonna be two
[01:32:25] minutes went off for five minutes what I
[01:32:27] will do is give you about 45 seconds to
[01:32:30] kind of defend yourself and explain why
[01:32:33] you disagree with Marsha's assessment
[01:32:34] that your fascist and then let's move
[01:32:36] back to the original conversation in the
[01:32:38] hand because it's gotten really really
[01:32:39] off track so good what matters is that
[01:32:42] we're having fun and having fun
[01:32:46] yeah yeah so when we're talking about
[01:32:49] kind of these distinctions first of all
[01:32:51] said post-modernist but fine I'll just
[01:32:53] give it into uh modernity itself when
[01:32:56] I'm asking about the ethical distinction
[01:32:58] I'm asking him which of these kind of
[01:33:01] modern practices he thinks are opposed
[01:33:04] to Christian ethics or why Christian
[01:33:06] ethics itself is opposed to what he
[01:33:09] considers modernity and I don't think he
[01:33:11] can actually do that which is very
[01:33:14] problematic from his worldview that's
[01:33:15] why you make the ethical distinction
[01:33:17] that he make the material distinction
[01:33:18] when these things are talked about so I
[01:33:21] would actually like to know the answer
[01:33:22] to this do you think that Christian
[01:33:25] ethics themselves are non-compatible
[01:33:27] with whatever you consider modernity to
[01:33:30] be and by the way just having Christian
[01:33:33] ethics does that make you a fascist by
[01:33:37] that metric
[01:33:43] first of all um this is very funny
[01:33:45] because you are literally an advocate
[01:33:48] for divine command Theory arguing that
[01:33:51] we need to challenge and reject
[01:33:52] liberalism you could not be more perfect
[01:33:55] a stereotype of an anti-modernist uh
[01:33:58] figure today or 250 years ago possible
[01:34:01] you are literally repping the same
[01:34:03] question no that is a direct answer you
[01:34:05] are not only anti-modernist this entire
[01:34:07] argument has been you proudly touting
[01:34:09] your anti-modernist beliefs you are
[01:34:11] literally arguing for divine demand
[01:34:13] Theory that's not my question my
[01:34:14] question is about ethics so well the F
[01:34:16] so the second question that you asked is
[01:34:18] being a Christian ethicist automatically
[01:34:19] make you a fascist the answer is for one
[01:34:21] you're not a Christian ethicist but for
[01:34:23] two a lot of people who claim to be are
[01:34:25] fascists but if you don't even know what
[01:34:26] Christian ethics are you just said and I
[01:34:28] never will uh the question is
[01:34:32] however if a by a Christian ethics a
[01:34:34] person just means like oh well the Bible
[01:34:36] says you should wash the feet of
[01:34:37] prostitutes or whatever then no of
[01:34:39] course that wouldn't make you a fascist
[01:34:40] however would people have very poor
[01:34:42] justifications for their empirical
[01:34:43] arguments they usually defer back to
[01:34:45] something they know they won't be able
[01:34:46] to metaphysically justify and then they
[01:34:48] can do the like well maybe I can't prove
[01:34:50] any of my ethics are real but like you
[01:34:53] you can't either and then it's like well
[01:34:54] you know why even talk about anything
[01:34:55] right so I never made the statement that
[01:34:57] I couldn't prove my ethics were real I
[01:34:58] just made this real criticism that the
[01:35:01] criticism applied moves back to you just
[01:35:04] as much as it does
[01:35:06] God is real
[01:35:09] are true and they're arbitrary no sense
[01:35:14] I'll let you guys have the option do you
[01:35:16] guys want to stay on this longer or do
[01:35:18] you want to move back to the original
[01:35:19] yeah we can move back I just want to
[01:35:21] talk about policy because yeah I want to
[01:35:23] talk about reality that's fine
[01:35:25] um
[01:35:26] I'm also going to say uh you know we're
[01:35:29] going now and a half we'll probably go
[01:35:30] for another half an hour unless of
[01:35:32] course there's something that's left
[01:35:33] unfinished so just so you guys have a
[01:35:35] mental idea okay go ahead
[01:35:38] oh I I I mean I would I guess I'd like
[01:35:41] to know how to prove God exists but like
[01:35:42] leaving that aside because I know I know
[01:35:43] what rabbit hole that goes down
[01:35:45] um yeah you want to have a debate over
[01:35:47] over that uh then I would suggest that
[01:35:50] you debate with Jay Dyer and we'll see
[01:35:53] if you're Logic for utilitarianism can
[01:35:55] hold up that would be my suggestion
[01:35:57] let's go back to policy yeah also you
[01:35:59] don't have to prove utilitarianism to
[01:36:01] disprove a person's assertions that
[01:36:03] they've proven God but
[01:36:04] um yeah yeah but the criticism refines
[01:36:06] back the other way you realize that
[01:36:07] right which is that even if I was unable
[01:36:09] to substantiate my world who's being
[01:36:11] true again you also can't beat bugs
[01:36:16] right policy policy uh okay back to
[01:36:19] policy okay so my argument is that I
[01:36:22] think it's good when things are good
[01:36:23] that's my sort of opening line I'm
[01:36:25] putting all my chips down to the table
[01:36:27] for this one
[01:36:30] no argument
[01:36:33] wait I what did you I'm sorry I must
[01:36:36] have missed what you said what did you
[01:36:37] say uh typical typical Weasley debate
[01:36:40] tactics no repeat what you just said I
[01:36:43] said I think it's good when things are
[01:36:45] good I think that's what I said I wasn't
[01:36:46] actually yeah but that doesn't mean
[01:36:48] anything what does good mean that's an
[01:36:50] excellent question
[01:36:51] um I think that we Face a lot of
[01:36:53] problems today in our country and in our
[01:36:54] world broadly and I think that it can
[01:36:56] seem very scary and very overwhelming
[01:36:58] and there's not really a simple way to
[01:37:00] fix any of it obviously if things could
[01:37:02] be fixed simply they would have been
[01:37:03] like it's not it's if there's never it's
[01:37:06] it's never that easy
[01:37:07] um I do think that the declining birth
[01:37:09] rate is a meaningful issue uh one day
[01:37:11] God willing every country will be up to
[01:37:13] economic par and if they are logically
[01:37:16] then it follows that they would have
[01:37:18] below replacement birth rates and that's
[01:37:19] not good I think that we can see what we
[01:37:22] need to do by looking at the country
[01:37:24] that did it worst Japan Japan has a
[01:37:27] ridiculously low birth rate in large
[01:37:29] part I think because of its tyrannical
[01:37:31] work culture It's Made It virtually
[01:37:33] impossible possible to start a family or
[01:37:35] to have children or anything like that
[01:37:37] because it's like you lose so much in
[01:37:39] your career I think that if we look at
[01:37:41] that and we think okay that's how to do
[01:37:43] it wrong so how can we make it right and
[01:37:47] I think we should hearken back to the
[01:37:49] last time we had a real population boom
[01:37:51] in this country I'm talking unions the
[01:37:54] 1950s the generation that produced the
[01:37:56] Baby Boomers didn't just come back home
[01:37:58] to Freshly built suburbs they came back
[01:37:59] to better jobs than most Americans can
[01:38:01] get today I think we need to reinvest in
[01:38:04] our society to make people happy to live
[01:38:06] and be alive give people hope in the
[01:38:08] future people are less likely to have
[01:38:09] kids if they don't hope for the future
[01:38:10] you know we got to address climate
[01:38:12] change not only for the million other
[01:38:13] reasons but also because it'll make
[01:38:15] people more willing to bring more life
[01:38:18] into this world which honestly at the
[01:38:19] moment is a pretty scary are you ever
[01:38:21] going to tell me what good means
[01:38:24] man you're really going to run right
[01:38:25] past all that aren't you you're really
[01:38:27] going to go right back to a specific
[01:38:29] question and I let you ramble for you
[01:38:31] know
[01:38:34] what you said I want things to be good
[01:38:37] man I want things to be awesome and good
[01:38:40] and we're all I don't know dope smoking
[01:38:41] hit but whatever the it is are you
[01:38:43] going to tell me what you mean by good
[01:38:45] I mean I just laid out a bunch of things
[01:38:47] that I think are yeah you laid up a
[01:38:48] bunch of things that you think are good
[01:38:50] but you haven't told me what the good is
[01:38:51] what is good do you think that people
[01:38:54] being don't ask me a question answer my
[01:38:56] question what is good don't ask me a
[01:38:58] question answer my question what is it
[01:38:59] maybe you can really quickly just
[01:39:01] explain what you mean by good sure
[01:39:03] though it's it's this seems like a
[01:39:05] willful uh disengagement from any of the
[01:39:07] material substance it was your argument
[01:39:12] afterwards
[01:39:14] yeah so going back to the topic we just
[01:39:17] painfully rested ourselves away from
[01:39:19] over the past hour when I say good I
[01:39:21] mean in line with my utilitarian ethics
[01:39:23] and when I say that what I mean is that
[01:39:24] it maximizes or at least improves a
[01:39:27] number of conditions that I think are
[01:39:28] associated with positive utility so in
[01:39:30] this case I'm arguing in favor of
[01:39:32] something we should both agree is
[01:39:34] morally good people being happy and
[01:39:36] people being fruitful literally people
[01:39:39] producing more children so what do you
[01:39:41] do so what do you do with all these vast
[01:39:44] population centers which don't follow
[01:39:46] utilitarianism and have a different
[01:39:48] version of what is good so do you the
[01:39:51] things that I just talked about about
[01:39:52] looking at Japan and learning what not
[01:39:54] to do do you think that's a good idea
[01:39:56] yeah no answer my question oh my Alex he
[01:39:59] he doesn't have anything so he'll do
[01:40:01] anything to keep the energy away to a
[01:40:04] very specific question so it's like it's
[01:40:06] not even related to what we're talking
[01:40:07] about
[01:40:08] your statement was this is all good all
[01:40:12] these things are good I ask you for the
[01:40:14] definition of dude
[01:40:15] utilitarian ethics okay
[01:40:18] so what do you want to do with all these
[01:40:21] massive advantages
[01:40:27] Point uh what was the end of that I
[01:40:30] missed it he claims vosh's claim was I
[01:40:33] want to do what's good man and then I
[01:40:35] said what's good and after his rambling
[01:40:37] diet tribe he finally said whatever
[01:40:38] gives positive utility is it okay so
[01:40:41] well as a policy prescription which is
[01:40:43] what we're talking about what do you
[01:40:44] want to do do with all of these nations
[01:40:46] which are vast and don't follow
[01:40:48] utilitarian ethics they follow religious
[01:40:50] ethics what are you going to do with
[01:40:52] those it is a fair question do you
[01:40:56] remember how we said policy a bunch a
[01:40:58] while ago and then that would be policy
[01:40:59] and then I laid out like a bunch of
[01:41:01] specific policies that I think would
[01:41:03] make people happier and produce more
[01:41:04] children and then he ignored all of it
[01:41:06] and because I said at the beginning of
[01:41:07] now the option two minutes ago I said I
[01:41:09] think good things are good he's
[01:41:11] disingenuously latching on to that so he
[01:41:13] can avoid acknowledging the fact that he
[01:41:14] has no real prescriptions
[01:41:20] ape in the corner man
[01:41:25] stop okay let's do this so uh wash if
[01:41:29] you can answer his question after that I
[01:41:31] will make sure that we go back to your
[01:41:33] initial question he answers uh that in
[01:41:36] detail
[01:41:38] let's see this would be Paul let's see
[01:41:41] what do you do with the fast populations
[01:41:43] that don't follow your stupid ass
[01:41:45] utilitarian ethic which almost no which
[01:41:48] almost no broad Nation who has religious
[01:41:51] undertones which are most of them follow
[01:41:54] they don't follow your utilitarian
[01:41:55] ethics so what's your policy in dealing
[01:41:57] with them so there's a couple of uh
[01:41:59] presuppositions here that below a low IQ
[01:42:01] and I'm hoping that the audience doesn't
[01:42:02] have to fall into the same pit Andrew
[01:42:04] has for one countries don't follow quote
[01:42:06] unquote utilitarian ethics that's
[01:42:08] nonsensical the fact that he would say
[01:42:09] that is you said that that was the
[01:42:11] greatest
[01:42:12] you asked the question he doesn't
[01:42:14] understand how ethics Works countries
[01:42:16] are ruled by and decisions within them
[01:42:18] are made by literally millions of people
[01:42:21] sometimes in autocracies it seems like
[01:42:23] it's one it's usually the influence of a
[01:42:25] huge number of people and most people
[01:42:27] don't have cohesive ethical systems for
[01:42:30] idea the example the idea that the house
[01:42:32] of sod these Saudi Arabian the
[01:42:34] bloodthirsty vicious Saudi Arabian royal
[01:42:37] family is making their decisions based
[01:42:39] on religious ethics like when they
[01:42:41] decide to build a giant Clock Tower over
[01:42:44] Mecca they're like well what does the
[01:42:46] what does the Quran say
[01:42:48] um notice how he muted himself he's
[01:42:49] talking to his own chat he literally
[01:42:50] like he has no intention to engage with
[01:42:53] anything yes you can repeat back
[01:42:56] everything you just said we're gonna go
[01:42:58] on another tangent would you expect me
[01:43:00] to repeat that question if you think I'm
[01:43:02] not listening keep holding it would you
[01:43:03] like me to repeat back what I just said
[01:43:05] what you just said keep holding it to
[01:43:06] your memory for life I want to give you
[01:43:09] a chance to finish that yeah I want to
[01:43:10] finish I'm going to direct your initial
[01:43:12] question to Andrew in a couple minutes
[01:43:13] he can repeat everything I've said
[01:43:14] backward for word it's the test of his
[01:43:15] memory it's like a fun game
[01:43:17] um the idea that like the house of sod
[01:43:19] is making religiously oriented decisions
[01:43:21] like they're looking in the Quran to
[01:43:23] decide what decision to make like is
[01:43:25] ridiculous in reality the decisions that
[01:43:28] countries make are almost always Guided
[01:43:30] by self-interest either for the nation
[01:43:32] or for the class of people in power or
[01:43:33] for the individual in power uh for the
[01:43:36] house of sod the decisions made are
[01:43:37] almost entirely to the benefit of the
[01:43:39] royal family for example in the United
[01:43:41] States of America the decisions made are
[01:43:43] ostensibly to the benefit bit of the
[01:43:45] majority of people because we live in a
[01:43:47] democracy but are really heavily slanted
[01:43:49] towards the ruling class the elites the
[01:43:51] the bourgeoisie
[01:43:52] um so the idea that this all falls on
[01:43:54] like well how are you going to convince
[01:43:56] their ethical systems well I do it the
[01:43:58] same way all countries have always
[01:43:59] managed to uh engage in diplomacy with
[01:44:02] each other I would try to find a way to
[01:44:04] make it in their best interest to adopt
[01:44:06] these systems so I actually think it's
[01:44:08] in everyone's best interest to adopt
[01:44:10] systems that prioritize the well-being
[01:44:12] of the average person because I think it
[01:44:14] leads to stable countries uh I guess I
[01:44:16] could make the argument like hey I think
[01:44:18] that it's best when people are healthy
[01:44:21] happy and able to raise families I think
[01:44:23] those are good arguments people make
[01:44:25] those pretty often so following from
[01:44:27] that you know what arguments could I
[01:44:29] make to France or to Germany or to
[01:44:31] Norway or Hell to Russia to Saudi Arabia
[01:44:33] to China to do this and um you know I
[01:44:37] don't think it'd be easy but I don't
[01:44:38] think there's any easy way to get all 8
[01:44:40] billion people on Earth to get along
[01:44:42] because that has literally never
[01:44:43] happened it's always going to be a an
[01:44:45] uphill battle so okay
[01:44:47] the question has been answered now let's
[01:44:51] redirect to vash's initial question that
[01:44:53] he was trying to ask you and then if you
[01:44:55] want to touch on this a little bit later
[01:44:56] we can do that but let's I promise
[01:44:58] Foster we're going to go back to his
[01:44:59] initial portion none of those are
[01:45:00] policies by the way just so you know
[01:45:02] they're named a single policy
[01:45:05] and by the way he also wants to
[01:45:07] Outsource his ethical system to other
[01:45:09] peoples what he just said but okay
[01:45:12] can you please repeat your initial
[01:45:14] question
[01:45:15] sure so I listed a bunch of policies I
[01:45:17] guess his memory is not as good as he
[01:45:19] remembers but um I guess a specific one
[01:45:21] would be
[01:45:22] given that Japan has a uniquely low
[01:45:25] birth rate and a very bad work culture
[01:45:28] wouldn't it be sensible to look at Japan
[01:45:31] for examples and what not to do like
[01:45:33] maybe if we see what they were doing has
[01:45:36] led to uh uh really bad outcomes when it
[01:45:40] comes to birth rates we could then try
[01:45:41] to prevent those things from happening
[01:45:43] in our place so for example there are
[01:45:45] because he doesn't seem to think it's
[01:45:47] policy there are lots of Japanese
[01:45:48] policies laws and cultural norms uh that
[01:45:53] dictate their extremely bad uh work
[01:45:56] culture so maybe we could look at that
[01:45:59] see the outcomes and go hey let's not do
[01:46:03] that like would that be sense of policy
[01:46:06] then
[01:46:08] watch I mean sorry Andrew it is a fair
[01:46:11] question you can follow up and ask him
[01:46:13] hey I don't see you know what the policy
[01:46:15] is it is a fair question it is related
[01:46:16] to the discussion so I you got to answer
[01:46:18] that
[01:46:21] what would the policy be
[01:46:24] Andrew this just just answer it doesn't
[01:46:26] know he wasn't listening
[01:46:28] you didn't give a policy bro you
[01:46:32] just said we shouldn't do X
[01:46:35] so what's the actual policy prescription
[01:46:38] here so okay fine Bosh what is that okay
[01:46:41] no don't worry I'll repeat it okay so
[01:46:43] yeah repeat it I didn't make a policy
[01:46:45] prescription there he wasn't listening
[01:46:46] right what I I asked you for the third
[01:46:48] time what's the policy I didn't I didn't
[01:46:50] give one your goal was to answer right I
[01:46:52] know yeah that it wasn't about the
[01:46:55] policy you weren't listening yeah but I
[01:46:57] asked you I mean what policy you were
[01:46:59] supposed to answer then and then ask me
[01:47:01] a question but you didn't answer yeah
[01:47:02] because you didn't listen there was no
[01:47:03] policy you're asking the wrong question
[01:47:05] so how can I ask the wrong question just
[01:47:09] answer my question the fact that you
[01:47:11] don't know the answer to that is
[01:47:13] I'm just trying to repeat it man I'm
[01:47:15] just trying to help him
[01:47:17] understanding you guys okay so listen
[01:47:19] I'm gonna repeat the question can I
[01:47:20] repeat the question aren't you ask the
[01:47:22] question sorry what may I repeat the
[01:47:23] question without any um flourish yeah
[01:47:27] but I think I think we got the question
[01:47:28] uh Andrew did we I personally got the
[01:47:32] question I know you do sir I think
[01:47:33] you're doing great uh well if Andrew
[01:47:35] needs it you can repeat but uh I think
[01:47:38] so vosh made a question that's not
[01:47:41] directly policy prescription Harvard is
[01:47:43] very much related to the topic yeah I
[01:47:45] know are you hang on Alex I understand
[01:47:47] but just so that you understand I asked
[01:47:50] him for a policy I have to be I'm sorry
[01:47:54] uh so just please answer his question
[01:47:56] and then afterwards uh I will horse wash
[01:47:59] to answer uh give you policy okay that's
[01:48:02] the that's the only fair way I think I'm
[01:48:04] doing this I'm trying to be as Fair as
[01:48:05] possible uh you know hopefully I'll do a
[01:48:07] good job but yeah so let's just do that
[01:48:09] what's the question yeah okay no happily
[01:48:12] so
[01:48:14] Japan has a uniquely low birth rate and
[01:48:17] that low birth rate is almost certainly
[01:48:20] caused by a set of laws and cultural
[01:48:22] norms
[01:48:23] mostly oriented around the work culture
[01:48:26] there but there's a lot of stuff you
[01:48:27] know do you think that it would be
[01:48:29] sensible for us to look at all of the
[01:48:31] things that are lowering Japan's
[01:48:32] Birthright and use those as uh teaching
[01:48:35] tools for what not to do over here like
[01:48:38] if we see over there sure there is a
[01:48:40] sure absolutely every day Sean Earth you
[01:48:42] can do that with now back to my question
[01:48:43] what would be your apology to correct
[01:48:45] that
[01:48:47] sure so considering the fact that very
[01:48:51] bad work culture in Japan
[01:48:53] correlates to and seems to be causative
[01:48:56] of I mean based on what I've seen I mean
[01:48:58] there's a lot of research on it lower
[01:48:59] birth rates
[01:49:01] so we're setting up like a mathematical
[01:49:03] proof If really bad work culture causes
[01:49:06] lower birth rates it follows logically
[01:49:08] that good work culture should make for
[01:49:11] better birth rights now it doesn't fix
[01:49:13] everything of course but it's one step
[01:49:15] in in a larger set right so what makes
[01:49:17] Japanese work culture bad well obviously
[01:49:20] the long hours are one but another big
[01:49:22] one is that workers are often expected
[01:49:24] to willfully work long hours after their
[01:49:28] shift is technically ended how are you
[01:49:30] supposed to go out and pick people up so
[01:49:32] what would be your policy prescription
[01:49:34] we have laws strong overtime laws that
[01:49:38] make it illegal for people to continue
[01:49:40] work like that after the official hours
[01:49:43] of encounters so your policy
[01:49:45] prescription in order to incentivize
[01:49:47] birth rates is to Outlaw overtime so I
[01:49:50] think that is the fact that we have wait
[01:49:52] wait wait I didn't say out overtime I
[01:49:53] said um that they would be paid for it'd
[01:49:55] be illegal to hold them without pay
[01:49:56] after the work you can still do overtime
[01:50:00] so then what I don't understand so if
[01:50:03] Japan has a law where you're paid for
[01:50:05] overtime right you just you just want
[01:50:07] the law in the U.S which it already is
[01:50:09] to be that you're paid for overtime yeah
[01:50:12] so one of the reasons why the Americans
[01:50:15] prescription
[01:50:17] what an answer yeah you have to build a
[01:50:21] castle one brick at a time
[01:50:23] um so the United States has a higher
[01:50:26] birth rate than Japan by a pretty
[01:50:27] significant margin depends Japan's
[01:50:29] pretty so maybe one of the reasons why
[01:50:32] it's is because they do things worse
[01:50:34] than us in some specific ways this would
[01:50:36] be an example of something that I think
[01:50:37] works to their detriment they do not
[01:50:40] have the same kind of worker protections
[01:50:41] and it's it is complicated in like the
[01:50:43] specifics obviously we have to simplify
[01:50:45] this because I'm not like an expert on
[01:50:46] the Japanese economy but I've read some
[01:50:48] articles where the expectation towards
[01:50:51] unpaid overtime and constant constant
[01:50:53] socializing with your boss like drinking
[01:50:55] after work and stuff like that I think
[01:50:57] things like this uh make it worse over
[01:50:59] there and I think that there is
[01:51:01] causative evidence that it makes it
[01:51:03] worse over there and we have it better
[01:51:04] over here and we don't have those same
[01:51:07] issues so maybe we can follow through
[01:51:09] with that and so we still do we have a
[01:51:11] 1.64 birth rate they have a 1.34 birth
[01:51:14] rate that is significantly lower so
[01:51:16] maybe well wait a second wait a second
[01:51:18] okay when you say significant when you
[01:51:21] say it's significantly lower they're
[01:51:23] really low in both areas if you're if
[01:51:26] all your policy prescription is to Japan
[01:51:28] is hey pay people for overtime and
[01:51:31] that's already the policy prescription
[01:51:32] inside of the United States how do you
[01:51:34] plan on Outsourcing this policy that's
[01:51:37] the whole question you want other
[01:51:39] country to do vosh ethics how does vosh
[01:51:42] want to make Japan start paying for
[01:51:44] overtime I'm just talking about learning
[01:51:45] what policies would be most effective to
[01:51:47] increasing the birth rate I think that
[01:51:48] the fact that we have that policy in the
[01:51:51] United States helps so that was one
[01:51:53] example there are like a thousand more
[01:51:55] that we could go over because obviously
[01:51:57] something is nebulous and complicated as
[01:51:59] improving the birth rate is going to
[01:52:00] involve I mean we could talk about
[01:52:02] criminology we could talk about
[01:52:03] economics we could talk about there are
[01:52:05] so many fields where you could influence
[01:52:08] the outcomes here I I mean no single
[01:52:10] human could know even a quarter of it
[01:52:13] like we're talking about a insane set of
[01:52:16] shifts but hey big Paradigm shifts are
[01:52:18] what socialists are supposed to be all
[01:52:21] about so I'm fine with it yeah so how
[01:52:23] would you move that big paradigm shift
[01:52:25] well we already have uh paid overtime in
[01:52:29] the United States no no externally
[01:52:31] externally fosh
[01:52:33] um you mean like to make Japan better
[01:52:35] about this yeah so you want to export
[01:52:37] your ethical system right uh no Japanese
[01:52:40] workers also want to be paid for
[01:52:42] overtime there are labor rights
[01:52:44] organizations that have been really
[01:52:45] active there for
[01:52:47] decades they have a lot of trouble
[01:52:48] because Japan is not that Democratic uh
[01:52:51] we don't talk about it that much because
[01:52:53] we mostly think of Japan as like anime
[01:52:54] and Pocky sticks but Japan is um not
[01:52:58] great politically in a lot of ways yeah
[01:53:00] great but you still want to export your
[01:53:03] brand of Ethics to Japan right I think
[01:53:06] that the labor workers over there have
[01:53:08] been fighting for overtime pay for a
[01:53:10] long time I mean are they would
[01:53:12] supporting them be exporting my ethics
[01:53:15] you can just say yes you know I don't
[01:53:17] even know why that's a problem
[01:53:20] you ask them a question unanswered yeah
[01:53:23] so I don't I I guess right now the
[01:53:26] current like setup like the current
[01:53:27] disingenuous setup for agacha is that I
[01:53:30] believe that it's good for good things
[01:53:33] to happen to people in other countries I
[01:53:35] think it's good to export your moral
[01:53:37] system so don't understand what your
[01:53:38] criticism is
[01:53:40] children children let's let vosh answer
[01:53:44] the original question
[01:53:45] so again the he frames this entirely in
[01:53:50] gotchas
[01:53:51] um the idea of I support labor rights
[01:53:54] organizations in Japan means I support
[01:53:57] exporting ethics means I should support
[01:53:58] exporting ethics in all cases the the
[01:54:01] functional argument that is being made
[01:54:02] here would be that me supporting
[01:54:04] overtime pay in Japan is equivalent to
[01:54:06] like Hitler invading neighboring
[01:54:08] countries it is a level of uh political
[01:54:11] reductionism that is genuinely so
[01:54:13] that I don't know how he put a
[01:54:14] shirt on before showing up to the debate
[01:54:16] uh I mean I don't know how you see me
[01:54:18] with those big coke bottle glasses but
[01:54:19] the truth is you haven't seen any
[01:54:21] arguments either
[01:54:22] but I am happy to see that you've
[01:54:24] finally been losing weight I think that
[01:54:26] worker rights are good everywhere they
[01:54:28] are practiced yeah I know you want to
[01:54:30] export your ethical system I don't know
[01:54:33] again right the criticism applied to me
[01:54:35] is the same criticism applied to you I
[01:54:38] know that you think that that's not big
[01:54:39] brain because I don't use enough
[01:54:40] adjectives but it is true vosh isn't it
[01:54:43] incredible how even after we chanted
[01:54:45] Paul let's see policy together
[01:54:48] um he still can't um
[01:54:50] I mean if if if supporting labor rights
[01:54:53] organizations in Japan is like uh Adolf
[01:54:55] Hitler and invading Poland or whatever
[01:54:57] then like okay sure I want to uh leap in
[01:55:00] surround Japan by promoting their
[01:55:02] happiness and higher birth rates by
[01:55:03] doing things that are democratically
[01:55:05] desirable to the population I believe
[01:55:07] that it's okay to make arguments because
[01:55:09] I believe in Freedom I will leave and
[01:55:11] surround the Mind space of people all
[01:55:13] around the world by doing hitler-esque
[01:55:15] things like saying that it's good to get
[01:55:19] along and sharing is caring
[01:55:21] um I mean you know we're talking like
[01:55:25] Sesame Street ethics here so now what do
[01:55:28] we even what are we pretending to care
[01:55:29] about right now
[01:55:31] you're pretending to care about Japanese
[01:55:33] workers or something I think if you want
[01:55:36] to talk about politics I think it'd be
[01:55:37] helpful if you ask Andrew very specific
[01:55:39] policy related questions
[01:55:41] you would have to actually defend his
[01:55:43] side of that so that's why he won't do
[01:55:45] it
[01:55:46] um sure do you think that we should um
[01:55:48] promote a better workplace culture in
[01:55:50] Japan if it raises the birth rate of
[01:55:52] that country
[01:55:53] uh if if if
[01:55:57] their culture was not in some way
[01:56:00] affected by it in a negative light I
[01:56:03] would say that the positives could
[01:56:04] overwhelm that and that if we had
[01:56:06] foreign policy it would be with inside
[01:56:09] of the Christian ethic to do so yeah
[01:56:10] what does that mean if it wouldn't be
[01:56:13] detrimental to their culture
[01:56:15] well there could be there could be other
[01:56:17] other factors for instance so you could
[01:56:19] try for instance to mess with whatever
[01:56:21] the cultural cohesion is and end up
[01:56:24] drastically having a reduction in the
[01:56:27] birth rates even further without
[01:56:29] recognizing the damage that you're doing
[01:56:31] hard to say but in that particular case
[01:56:34] and there's overlap in the consequence
[01:56:37] especially when it comes to duties so
[01:56:39] again back to Japan though I wouldn't
[01:56:41] have a problem with uh say
[01:56:44] oh the birth rate's going to Skyrocket
[01:56:46] if we start paying these people for
[01:56:48] overtime yes of course I would say you
[01:56:50] should probably pay them for overtime
[01:56:52] however I'm not going to disagree with
[01:56:55] the fact that I'm trying to export my
[01:56:57] own system of Ethics to Japan which
[01:56:59] Christians did successfully do by the
[01:57:02] way I don't know and uh why would that
[01:57:04] why would that be problematic you're
[01:57:05] doing the exact same thing so the
[01:57:07] criticism back is always the same that's
[01:57:09] the point I still haven't heard an
[01:57:11] actual criticism against Christian
[01:57:13] nationalism yet not Alex I genuinely
[01:57:15] don't know what he's talking about I
[01:57:17] don't know why it's like he had a list
[01:57:19] of gotchas that he wrote down before
[01:57:20] this and he realized it's two hours in
[01:57:22] and he hadn't tried to argue that all
[01:57:24] forms of advocating for another country
[01:57:26] to change are exactly the same yeah
[01:57:30] Andrew repeat your last question one
[01:57:33] more time please
[01:57:35] the I don't think there was a question
[01:57:36] yeah
[01:57:39] he was he was asking questions and I was
[01:57:42] answering them okay so now it's my turn
[01:57:46] well let's hang on you said you want
[01:57:48] Walsh to give specific policy
[01:57:50] prescription yeah so now I would like to
[01:57:52] follow up on my question
[01:57:54] okay oh you want more policy I love
[01:57:56] policies so moving back into uh the
[01:57:59] Japanese I think that that's a a pretty
[01:58:01] good place to start right now Japan is
[01:58:05] being drastically affected by the fact
[01:58:07] that uh they have such an elder care
[01:58:10] crisis and the Elder Care crisis is
[01:58:12] coming of course because of their birth
[01:58:13] rate crisis this is the the number one
[01:58:15] thing affecting them they've even
[01:58:17] considered opening up their borders for
[01:58:19] slight amounts of immigration in order
[01:58:20] to take care of this problem uh though
[01:58:23] the culture there it seems to be
[01:58:24] adamantly against it they are
[01:58:26] considering doing so do you think that
[01:58:29] the birth rate collapsed there then can
[01:58:31] we agree that that is a problem even for
[01:58:35] a utilitarian that their birth rate is
[01:58:38] collapsing to the point they can't take
[01:58:39] care of their elderly
[01:58:41] yeah of course I just said okay problem
[01:58:43] so then all over the world this is
[01:58:46] happening
[01:58:47] right and your solution and your
[01:58:50] solution to it is what
[01:58:53] so all over the world the Western world
[01:58:56] right now has a below replacement birth
[01:58:57] rate most countries that are not in the
[01:58:59] Western World we have the same problem
[01:59:00] are not quite older care but they're
[01:59:02] getting Elder Care is still a problem
[01:59:04] well Elder Care is always going to be an
[01:59:06] issue they're old uh Japan and China are
[01:59:08] going to have nothing to do with what I
[01:59:10] just said the problem is
[01:59:13] Elder Care here has to do with the fact
[01:59:16] that we have below replacement levels
[01:59:18] again and even with mass migration we
[01:59:21] can't get enough people into these jobs
[01:59:23] to take care of the elderly same issue
[01:59:25] you have in Japan
[01:59:27] answer that question so the the
[01:59:29] difference is first of all it actually
[01:59:31] isn't the same problem Japan doesn't
[01:59:33] have much in the way of immigration we
[01:59:35] actually have an above replacement birth
[01:59:37] rate in America factoring immigration in
[01:59:40] terms of just how many workers we have
[01:59:42] so well then we have a low replacement
[01:59:43] rate so we have um which means we're not
[01:59:47] suffering from a like population crisis
[01:59:50] in the same way Japan is Japan because
[01:59:52] they don't they allow for immigration in
[01:59:54] the same way that we do not only has
[01:59:56] below replacement birth rates they have
[01:59:58] like total below replacement population
[02:00:01] they're dipping so their problem is
[02:00:03] definitely a lot worse however obviously
[02:00:05] we want to avoid population dips ideally
[02:00:07] every country would level out at
[02:00:10] essentially replacement rate there's
[02:00:12] always going to be fluctuations of
[02:00:13] course I mean the thing we're below
[02:00:15] variable
[02:00:16] um but um yeah I think that the the goal
[02:00:18] eventually would be to get the world on
[02:00:20] board with that uh there's still
[02:00:22] countries that have a lot of room to
[02:00:24] grow like India for example is going to
[02:00:25] keep ballooning for a while Africa then
[02:00:27] the the continent of Africa is going to
[02:00:29] massively increase in population I mean
[02:00:31] it's so big Europe is so small and
[02:00:34] Africa and Asia are so so big and I feel
[02:00:37] like a lot of people are kind of
[02:00:38] freaking out at that but like
[02:00:39] that's this that's what the continents
[02:00:41] are sized as you can look at it from
[02:00:42] space that's how big they are there's a
[02:00:44] lot of land
[02:00:45] so the goal then I mean there's going to
[02:00:47] be a lot of um
[02:00:49] fluctuation as we reach that point I
[02:00:51] think that our main goal should be
[02:00:53] trying to find a point where we taper
[02:00:55] off at a healthy level and we can use
[02:00:57] immigration to supplement any below
[02:00:59] replacement birth rate problems to a
[02:01:02] point where we don't have a crisis of
[02:01:04] population
[02:01:05] um ideally every country or I guess
[02:01:07] every region of the world because
[02:01:09] there's always going to be some degree
[02:01:10] of immigration would be able to level
[02:01:12] its population and just stay strong and
[02:01:15] I think that would probably lead to the
[02:01:16] best economic
[02:01:18] um the best economic outcome for All
[02:01:19] Humans
[02:01:20] my question was oh you would solve the
[02:01:24] birth rate problem
[02:01:27] oh you said by bringing in immigrants
[02:01:29] that's going to solve the birth rate
[02:01:30] problems what that's what your argument
[02:01:34] was was that while population levels can
[02:01:36] still be maintained due to immigration
[02:01:38] so the birth rate problems essentially
[02:01:40] how would you solve the birth rate
[02:01:41] problem at the moment that does
[02:01:44] literally do that because the issue of
[02:01:46] course is the population when your
[02:01:48] population declines or when you have
[02:01:50] very like uneven population distribution
[02:01:52] in terms of age that's when the real
[02:01:54] problems show up but for now immigration
[02:01:57] does a pretty good job of supplementing
[02:01:58] that which is why Japan is collapsing
[02:02:00] and we aren't Japan's GDP has been
[02:02:03] stagnant for like 35 years ours has just
[02:02:05] been exploding so clearly the economic
[02:02:08] problem the like uh worker problem
[02:02:10] that's not it right but eventually you
[02:02:13] know Mexico and America both are going
[02:02:16] to level out and at that point
[02:02:17] immigration will no longer be a reliable
[02:02:19] solution immigration from where you know
[02:02:21] yeah maybe we can pull people from
[02:02:23] elsewhere but what about them you know
[02:02:24] they don't want to we don't want to dry
[02:02:25] them up so how are you going to solve
[02:02:27] the birth rate problem for the third
[02:02:29] time Andrew he did answer your question
[02:02:31] she actually at the end of his answer
[02:02:34] actually recognized he didn't so he said
[02:02:37] what are you going to do when all these
[02:02:38] countries have low replacement and you
[02:02:40] can't rely on immigration he actually
[02:02:42] worked himself to that which is great so
[02:02:45] now maybe we can get to the how we're
[02:02:46] going to solve the birth rate crisis
[02:02:48] thing
[02:02:49] um are you okay with me giving you a
[02:02:51] really really long answer of course Bosh
[02:02:54] why would I expect anything different
[02:02:56] nice concise answers would allow me to
[02:02:59] respond go ahead okay I'm glad we're uh
[02:03:01] we understand the point uh it's really
[02:03:04] complicated so um the big yes uh the big
[02:03:09] problem ultimately is that a lot of
[02:03:10] people don't want to have kids because
[02:03:12] they don't feel comfortable raising them
[02:03:14] people biologically want to have kids
[02:03:16] like literally like we're we're talking
[02:03:18] about a base Instinct here so how how do
[02:03:21] we cultivate that how do we make that
[02:03:24] happen you know
[02:03:25] um a lot of people feel hopeless a lot
[02:03:27] of people feel very economically
[02:03:29] um uh insecure there's a big difference
[02:03:31] between rural economic and security and
[02:03:33] urban rural insecurity as well cities
[02:03:36] have much lower birth rates on average
[02:03:38] in large part because like city houses
[02:03:40] are so small and if you run out of money
[02:03:42] even a little bit you get like kicked
[02:03:44] out of your place and if you have kids
[02:03:45] it's like oh my God but in a rural area
[02:03:47] maybe the issues are more like broader
[02:03:49] economic like uh destitution for the
[02:03:52] region but maybe you have like a house
[02:03:53] that's been in your family for
[02:03:54] Generations you know so it might be more
[02:03:56] easy to raise kids I think that fixing
[02:03:58] housing policy and economic inequality
[02:04:00] would help a bit I think that addressing
[02:04:02] climate change would make people feel
[02:04:03] more hopeful people tend to produce way
[02:04:05] more kids after uh when they feel
[02:04:07] hopeful towards the future we see this
[02:04:08] all over the world's constant you know
[02:04:10] after a big civil war ends when there's
[02:04:11] peace time like that's how it is
[02:04:13] um I think that uh there's lots of Civic
[02:04:15] policy that we could encourage I think
[02:04:17] that banning abortion would artificially
[02:04:19] inflate birth rates but it wouldn't make
[02:04:21] Society better first of all I think that
[02:04:23] uh women and in fact men with wombs as
[02:04:25] well have a right to have an abortion if
[02:04:28] they want to I don't believe that a
[02:04:29] fetus has an ethical personhood and
[02:04:31] neither did the founding fathers
[02:04:33] um but and neither does a Bible for that
[02:04:35] matter
[02:04:36] um considering the quickening liquid uh
[02:04:38] you know the bitter water that it gives
[02:04:40] you the recipe for but um leaving that
[02:04:43] aside
[02:04:44] I think um I think we want people to
[02:04:46] want to have kids right like the best
[02:04:47] world is the one in which a chick gets
[02:04:49] pregnant and she's like what abortion no
[02:04:52] I mean I know I could but I want to
[02:04:54] raise kids you know I think that's nice
[02:04:56] so we have to make people happy
[02:04:57] productive vibrant we have to make our
[02:04:59] cities safe for children which they are
[02:05:01] not currently because a bunch of people
[02:05:02] live in suburbs where you can't walk
[02:05:04] anywhere and also people live in like
[02:05:05] Urban jungles where it's like cars
[02:05:07] everywhere it's dangerous and stuff
[02:05:09] there's just so much stuff that we can
[02:05:10] do you know anyway I know that's long
[02:05:12] but like we're talking about a really
[02:05:14] really broad problem
[02:05:16] okay so I've been writing this down as
[02:05:18] you've gone
[02:05:20] that you said we should address global
[02:05:22] warming
[02:05:23] and that's it you actually didn't give
[02:05:25] any other solution you said that that
[02:05:26] City Homes are cramped that's true I
[02:05:28] didn't say anything can you give me some
[02:05:29] actual Solutions here or not I I it's I
[02:05:33] don't I don't get it can he give me some
[02:05:34] real solutions or are we just gonna do
[02:05:37] the endless I literally took notes live
[02:05:39] give me a solution vosh anything
[02:05:42] anything will work any solution other
[02:05:45] than address global warming unless you
[02:05:48] think that'll solve the birth break
[02:05:49] crisis do you think um is it like a is
[02:05:52] this like a medical thing like a
[02:05:53] deafness issue like genuine I don't know
[02:05:55] how to respond to this debate tactic
[02:05:57] this is this is very powerful I can
[02:05:59] repeat well I mean I'll repeat it all
[02:06:01] work I just wanted to take a solution so
[02:06:03] we did give the police one more in the
[02:06:05] beginning just a few you know
[02:06:08] um yeah people people should want to
[02:06:10] have kids uh and and people will want to
[02:06:12] have kids people do want to have kids
[02:06:13] for the most part not all humans but
[02:06:15] most of them it's a biological they're
[02:06:17] just not having them yes like for
[02:06:19] example there are lots of things people
[02:06:21] want to do that they don't necessarily
[02:06:22] do based on a variety of conditions yeah
[02:06:24] but they want to do that Bosh yeah but
[02:06:26] they want to have kids yes biology your
[02:06:29] policy of what is going to help them do
[02:06:31] that so do you not think we biologically
[02:06:34] want to have kids no I think we do I'm
[02:06:37] asking you a specific question I think
[02:06:40] one of the policies of the wash Mentor
[02:06:42] mentioned was uh uh daycare for the kids
[02:06:45] right I heard you say that yeah okay I
[02:06:47] can just list them like I was I was
[02:06:49] trying to get daycare for kids so uh
[02:06:51] yeah
[02:06:52] um obviously subsidizing Child Care May
[02:06:54] making it that it doesn't cost twenty
[02:06:56] thousand dollars to give birth to a
[02:06:57] hospital like whatever insane number it
[02:06:59] is in the average American Hospital
[02:07:00] these days uh making our cities more
[02:07:02] kid-friendly as in not dirty disgusting
[02:07:04] Urban jungles where if you step one foot
[02:07:05] in the wrong direction you get
[02:07:06] obliterated by a car going 50 miles per
[02:07:08] hour in a stroke you know
[02:07:10] um we need to uh level out the housing
[02:07:12] crisis that means more variety and mix
[02:07:13] zoning in cities because it is tough to
[02:07:16] raise a family in a city because being
[02:07:18] able to afford a place large enough for
[02:07:20] like three kids in a city holy I
[02:07:22] hope you're rich you know like there
[02:07:24] needs to be more up zoning so that it's
[02:07:26] possible for more people to live there
[02:07:27] without the prices going crazy oh
[02:07:28] there's a lot of housing policy stuff
[02:07:30] there that could work to that effect
[02:07:31] um more Parks more neighborhood friendly
[02:07:33] stuff you know uh Seattle's pretty good
[02:07:35] about this but not all American cities
[02:07:37] are like a lot could be done in that
[02:07:38] direction the climate change thing is
[02:07:39] real I think that would help giving
[02:07:41] people more time away from work would
[02:07:42] help uh a Ubi or some kind of basic
[02:07:45] economic provision so people don't feel
[02:07:46] like they're one day away from losing
[02:07:47] everything like constantly working
[02:07:49] paycheck to paycheck something that
[02:07:50] gives them the Comfort to spread their
[02:07:51] rings and fly and maybe have a couple of
[02:07:53] kids stuff like that you know also um uh
[02:07:56] high school and uh College like I think
[02:07:58] it would probably be good if there was a
[02:08:00] bit more of a gap between these two
[02:08:01] things most jobs that people work do not
[02:08:03] need immediate like college uh work and
[02:08:06] we we treat colleges like high school
[02:08:08] too but I think that it's kind of
[02:08:09] because like there's a weird Mis
[02:08:11] distribution of people's like attention
[02:08:13] and time and energy there maybe
[02:08:14] education like higher education isn't
[02:08:16] something everyone wants but it seems
[02:08:18] like people make mistakes sometimes when
[02:08:19] they go to high school and then just go
[02:08:21] right into a job I think leaving some
[02:08:23] Gap time there and maybe making colleges
[02:08:24] more accessible to older people like if
[02:08:26] you're 26 and you've already had two
[02:08:27] kids you want to go to college
[02:08:29] I don't know it's complicated okay so
[02:08:31] was that at least two policies
[02:08:35] no the thing is is that you gave kind of
[02:08:39] some descriptors of problems but not
[02:08:42] policy fixes so let me give you an
[02:08:44] example of this
[02:08:46] you seem to want to throw money at this
[02:08:48] situation I can agree with you on that
[02:08:50] at least you seem to want to throw a lot
[02:08:51] of money at it however other nations
[02:08:54] have thrown money at this problem and
[02:08:55] given Mass incentives for people to have
[02:08:57] children and they still aren't having
[02:08:59] them vosh
[02:09:01] they still aren't having them
[02:09:03] do you understand like so you're you say
[02:09:06] we need to subsidize daycare okay
[02:09:09] Nations have subsidized daycare you say
[02:09:11] we need to let have mothers have
[02:09:13] maternity leave okay we have Nations
[02:09:15] that have maternity leave they're still
[02:09:17] far under replacement rates and the
[02:09:19] trends not backing up can you explain to
[02:09:22] me how it is after all of your prattle
[02:09:24] after all of this money is thrown into
[02:09:26] this problem by even these nations who
[02:09:29] it seems you're modeling after they
[02:09:30] still have a below replacement rate now
[02:09:32] you say this is a stop Gap that reduces
[02:09:34] it slower great but how are we going to
[02:09:37] reverse the trend what's the policy vosh
[02:09:40] is going to do or even the collection of
[02:09:42] policies Bosch is going to do to help
[02:09:43] reverse this trend that you say have now
[02:09:46] uh acknowledged needs to be reversed so
[02:09:49] I just Googled effect of maternity leave
[02:09:52] on birth rate
[02:09:54] from the European Union Center of
[02:09:56] California the effective paternity leave
[02:09:58] paternity leave on fertility rates a
[02:10:01] segment from which says maternity leave
[02:10:03] tends to reduce or even reverse the rate
[02:10:05] of decline in fertility rates see
[02:10:07] figures two to five in the appendix
[02:10:09] I looked at another article the
[02:10:11] effective leave policies on increasing
[02:10:12] fertility a systemic review I haven't
[02:10:14] even scrolled down yet maybe when I
[02:10:16] scroll down I'll find a total defeater
[02:10:18] for my argument in which case I'd still
[02:10:19] argue that
[02:10:21] um fertility and maternity leave are
[02:10:23] still like good for people like because
[02:10:24] it makes them happy but you know
[02:10:25] whatever hold on we classify the 23
[02:10:27] studies in terms of the type identified
[02:10:29] revealing that all the negative or null
[02:10:31] studies identify the current child
[02:10:32] effect all the positive studies identify
[02:10:33] the future child a total effect since
[02:10:35] the future child in total effects are
[02:10:37] important more important for promoting
[02:10:39] aggregate fertility our findings show
[02:10:41] that leave paternal and maternal does in
[02:10:43] fact increase fertility when benefit
[02:10:45] increases are generous
[02:10:47] okay I'm also going to give a five
[02:10:49] minute warning go ahead and is that is
[02:10:52] that saying that it is reversing the
[02:10:55] trend or just slowing it down what I'm
[02:10:57] asking for is how we reverse this
[02:10:59] attorney leaves tend to reduce or even
[02:11:01] reverse the rate of then give me the
[02:11:03] examples of which nations have a
[02:11:05] reversal going on in their put in their
[02:11:08] uh fertility rates I would love to see
[02:11:10] them what contrary data do you have to
[02:11:12] what I've provided thus far
[02:11:13] I don't need listen I just ask you a
[02:11:16] specific question can you show me any
[02:11:19] Nation who has reversed their birth rate
[02:11:22] crisis via economic policy or can't you
[02:11:25] yeah sure so on page four fertility
[02:11:27] rates in the European Union in the
[02:11:29] appendix right here we see a list of
[02:11:31] countries in the European Union which
[02:11:33] have their fertility rates charted year
[02:11:35] by year and we can see which ones
[02:11:39] all of them every country
[02:11:42] and they're not trending down they're
[02:11:44] all reversing do you see how much you've
[02:11:47] moved the goal post you're like hey is
[02:11:49] this even I've asked you the question is
[02:11:51] this even have an effect and it's like
[02:11:53] yeah here's our here's study saying it
[02:11:55] has an effect and then it's like oh show
[02:11:56] me the effects oh here's the effect okay
[02:11:58] has it fixed every single one of them
[02:12:00] every country has the same policies when
[02:12:03] it comes to paternity and paternity I've
[02:12:05] asked you this even if it shows up
[02:12:09] for reversing this issue you have not
[02:12:12] given me any still and the data you pull
[02:12:15] up all the data shows it helps mitigate
[02:12:19] it it's crazy whoa wait hold on wait and
[02:12:21] so wait so you're saying several several
[02:12:24] policies that he recommends you disagree
[02:12:26] with really quickly I just went you
[02:12:28] realize what he just said some policies
[02:12:30] he he literally just said like oh
[02:12:33] maternity leave only stops the decline
[02:12:35] in birth rate you mean they were in free
[02:12:37] fall and passing that
[02:12:42] you can read all of it if you want here
[02:12:45] you go yeah send it over I'm very
[02:12:47] familiar with how birth rates work
[02:12:48] globally so just so you know I said I'm
[02:12:50] sorry wait wait are you familiaries can
[02:12:53] slightly slow the problem can you show
[02:12:55] me the trend of the problem being
[02:12:57] reversed it's literally said stop or
[02:12:59] even reverse you can read it yeah okay
[02:13:01] but so then all you have to do is show
[02:13:03] me the country where it's reversing let
[02:13:05] me okay yeah so in the thing that I just
[02:13:07] linked you we see over time the birth
[02:13:10] rates in Nordic and Eastern European
[02:13:12] countries that's what I'm looking at
[02:13:13] right here which one I own which ones
[02:13:16] they use the acronyms hold on there are
[02:13:18] uh 14 countries listed here so let me
[02:13:22] see that's Lithuania that's Hungary
[02:13:24] that's Sweden that's what you can open
[02:13:25] it up okay go to that it's page nine out
[02:13:28] of 27 on the EU
[02:13:30] center.scriptscollege.edu now you might
[02:13:32] notice that the lines were going down a
[02:13:35] lot but then at a point they stabilized
[02:13:37] and even started to climb upward
[02:13:40] isn't that interesting
[02:13:42] yeah but that actually doesn't mean
[02:13:44] anything
[02:13:45] close in 2016 paper found that a
[02:13:48] reduction in paternal working hours is
[02:13:50] linked to a quote sharp increase in
[02:13:53] fertility rates this is because much of
[02:13:55] the additional time off is used to care
[02:13:56] for children so live on l in a 2014
[02:13:59] paper compared the amount of time father
[02:14:00] spent with her children in two regions
[02:14:02] of Europe they found that Nordic
[02:14:04] countries were fathers value gender
[02:14:05] equality to a higher degree than those
[02:14:07] in Eastern Europe spend more time with
[02:14:09] children in Figure 6 I compare the
[02:14:11] fertility rates of these regions just
[02:14:13] give me a nation well hold on I'll just
[02:14:15] read the entire thing if you're
[02:14:16] insistent on not reading it I observe
[02:14:18] the problem
[02:14:20] in Union countries had fertility rates
[02:14:23] above the quote very low level some
[02:14:25] countries rates were even above
[02:14:26] replacement levels after 1990 it's 1.53
[02:14:30] for the EU right now 1.53 both the
[02:14:33] Eastern European uh countries and the
[02:14:35] Nordic States experienced a decline in
[02:14:36] fertility rates the Nordic countries
[02:14:38] were able to maintain or even increase
[02:14:40] their fertility rates partly because of
[02:14:42] their egalitarian attitudes and
[02:14:44] paternity leave policies which were
[02:14:46] implemented in between 1991 and 1998.
[02:14:49] cecia and verloo 2012 quote why Swedish
[02:14:52] men study 2014 Finland study 2013. in
[02:14:56] recent years fertility rates have begun
[02:14:58] to converge how long are you going to
[02:15:00] let this go on for Alex are you just
[02:15:02] going to let him read in depth of almost
[02:15:05] he is answering your questions
[02:15:08] he looked the article this is ridiculous
[02:15:13] it's true he should be able to show you
[02:15:16] where anywhere
[02:15:26] Andrew he did answer a question he said
[02:15:30] Scandinavian countries right they're not
[02:15:32] reversed in the Scandinavian countries
[02:15:35] is lying the problem is that Andrew has
[02:15:38] literally nothing to offer and he keeps
[02:15:40] asking me like how would you sell how
[02:15:41] would you and now I'm literally reading
[02:15:42] out the exact goal posts according to
[02:15:45] the article it does sound like there was
[02:15:47] uh some reversal almost like all he has
[02:15:50] to do is give me the nation where I can
[02:15:53] look at the reversal in these birth
[02:15:55] rates
[02:15:59] name one country for the city yes okay
[02:16:02] the Nordic countries so like Sweden
[02:16:05] Sweden's birth rate you think is on the
[02:16:08] uh upward swing then let me Google
[02:16:10] Sweden birth rate wait yeah wait I
[02:16:13] thought you just said that you knew this
[02:16:15] was your evidence it's in the article
[02:16:18] that I just linked to you it's literally
[02:16:19] yeah it's on the downward Trend since
[02:16:22] 2020.20 I wonder if anything happened in
[02:16:26] 2020 that might be affecting the overall
[02:16:27] birth rate yeah but it was on the
[02:16:29] downward Trend even before that well
[02:16:31] interestingly it seems like these
[02:16:33] articles have found extremely effective
[02:16:34] positive correlations between uh
[02:16:36] fertility rates and these maternal
[02:16:38] internal policies yeah except all the
[02:16:40] countries that you name their fertility
[02:16:42] rates below replacement and still
[02:16:43] dropping except wait to be fair I think
[02:16:46] what vosh was saying is that this
[02:16:49] specific policy caused the positive
[02:16:52] increase in birth rate he's not saying
[02:16:54] the country itself is on an upward swing
[02:16:56] because there could be a multitude that
[02:16:58] defies the purpose of the question no it
[02:17:00] doesn't say so yes it does again like
[02:17:02] the problem is and I think this is again
[02:17:04] tantamount to the fact that not only
[02:17:05] does Andrew not care about Christianity
[02:17:06] he doesn't actually care about birth
[02:17:07] rates either he asks the very specific
[02:17:10] question What policies to increase it so
[02:17:12] I find studies that say these policies
[02:17:15] increased it and sometimes even reversed
[02:17:17] it and yeah but I already
[02:17:27] [Applause]
[02:17:33] where the birth rates are going up so
[02:17:36] due to the policies that you are
[02:17:39] proposing are is it actually reversing
[02:17:42] the trend or is it not so if you say to
[02:17:45] me Andrew this is a mitigation I've
[02:17:47] already said you can mitigate policies
[02:17:49] with Finance however it doesn't seem
[02:17:52] like any of these policies move it back
[02:17:54] upwards Alex really quickly I'm going to
[02:17:56] appeal to the moderator here what's the
[02:17:58] question not are we not discussing
[02:18:00] policies that improve birth rate was
[02:18:01] that not something we were talking about
[02:18:03] uh yeah okay and was the question not
[02:18:06] asked okay so after we find that
[02:18:08] policies improve birth rates
[02:18:12] like see man hysterical this guy don't
[02:18:16] don't make it worse oh sorry that just
[02:18:18] slipped out I apologize that wasn't
[02:18:19] civil for me um so at first it was which
[02:18:22] policies help but now it's which policy
[02:18:25] no you're just reframing reverses it and
[02:18:27] now it's okay this policy was found to
[02:18:30] have reversed it you're just running the
[02:18:31] door
[02:18:32] is the reverse to not continue
[02:18:34] indefinitely the problem is how long is
[02:18:37] this guy he literally he's hysterical
[02:18:43] and he's trying to reframe definitely
[02:18:45] and you're allowing him
[02:18:50] I will make sure you get equal time to
[02:18:52] refute this Andrew I promise you you
[02:18:55] will not be cut off you can ask all the
[02:18:56] follow-up questions I just want to talk
[02:18:58] I just want to talk to you to be fair so
[02:19:00] okay he's just rattling bro I don't know
[02:19:03] well we're in proud for like 30 seconds
[02:19:05] remember me well I have I want to talk
[02:19:07] to you Alex if I may so the problem
[02:19:09] we're at right now is that it literally
[02:19:12] progressed from which policies help too
[02:19:14] okay so this policy has proven to help
[02:19:16] does it fix the problem forever and
[02:19:18] eternally and then there's literally
[02:19:20] studies saying actually reverse the
[02:19:22] trend but now he's pretending that's not
[02:19:23] happening either we're two hours and 22
[02:19:25] minutes into this I might as well be
[02:19:27] talking to Iraq he doesn't care about
[02:19:29] Christianity or birth rates I think what
[02:19:31] he cares about his attention honestly
[02:19:32] it's very feminine okay well let's log
[02:19:34] into the first one so so what I'm so
[02:19:36] what I'm saying is I have to wrap it up
[02:19:38] now I'm at the point now where I'm
[02:19:39] reading a study that says the things and
[02:19:41] then he's like well what does it say
[02:19:43] this like okay this is a level of
[02:19:45] willful like reality
[02:19:54] can you hang in for 10 more minutes uh
[02:19:57] yeah well to clear out of the at the
[02:19:58] half hour sure yeah
[02:20:00] okay cool uh all right so I think this
[02:20:02] is what we should do so I don't remember
[02:20:04] exactly how vosh phrase did in the
[02:20:07] beginning so I'm gonna put your
[02:20:09] ignorance on that uh it does seem like
[02:20:11] Marsha's saying hey here are the things
[02:20:13] that help the problem but they don't fix
[02:20:16] the problem right so I don't even know
[02:20:18] if you guys are just agreeing on much
[02:20:20] but I'll give you guys like the last two
[02:20:23] three minutes just go at it I won't even
[02:20:25] talk wait wait wait so I don't so I'm
[02:20:28] not allowed to speak at all
[02:20:30] let's shut down the entirety of the
[02:20:32] debate one more time let me respond to
[02:20:35] something okay go ahead respond Andrew
[02:20:37] so first of all I told vosh earlier I'm
[02:20:41] not looking for policies which act as a
[02:20:43] mitigation but as a reversal and do you
[02:20:45] have specific policies which act as a
[02:20:47] reversal he does not I stated tavosh
[02:20:50] multiple times in the very beginning of
[02:20:52] this debate he claimed this wasn't even
[02:20:54] an issue this isn't even a problem
[02:20:56] there's nothing to even worry about and
[02:20:59] suddenly he's desperately Googling for a
[02:21:01] study which he just reads he doesn't
[02:21:03] understand what the study's even saying
[02:21:04] he just claims hey there's some
[02:21:06] mitigation effects on the birth rate
[02:21:08] however the downward Trends are in all
[02:21:10] the nations he cited when I actually got
[02:21:13] this uh literal did cite an actual
[02:21:18] Nation
[02:21:19] on the downward Trend and he knows it he
[02:21:21] pulled up the graph for himself complete
[02:21:23] and utter out of vash's mouth
[02:21:25] vosh do you specifically
[02:21:29] have any collection of policies which is
[02:21:32] going to help within your communist util
[02:21:35] model and actually reversing this trend
[02:21:37] of the declining birth rate which you
[02:21:39] have now described as being a problem or
[02:21:41] not help in reducing the lowering burden
[02:21:44] no that's not what I said
[02:21:46] repeat back what I said
[02:22:00] so he asked do I know of any policies
[02:22:03] that would help in reducing the trend so
[02:22:05] no one policy can single-handedly fix
[02:22:07] any giant uh political problem he
[02:22:10] literally said help and fix it because
[02:22:12] when he's not pretending to be this
[02:22:13] stupid and disingenuous he understands
[02:22:15] literally can't help himself that's the
[02:22:18] word reverse I linked uh I linked an
[02:22:20] article what does the word
[02:22:22] he understood let's let him answer he
[02:22:24] doesn't understand because he's still
[02:22:26] straw man in the argument and you're
[02:22:27] letting him
[02:22:28] first mean he understands what the word
[02:22:32] reverse mean let's let him try to answer
[02:22:34] the question if he doesn't do a good job
[02:22:36] answering the question I promise you I
[02:22:38] will personally press them and get him
[02:22:40] to answer the question sure so the
[02:22:41] question from Andrew is are there any
[02:22:43] policies that reverse the problem so
[02:22:46] that specific article we just looked at
[02:22:49] said some countries like Norway saw a
[02:22:53] reversal of the trend because of the
[02:22:56] causative impact of the parental leave
[02:22:58] now obviously when we're talking about
[02:23:01] how to fix a global problem one single
[02:23:05] policy is not like this is like arguing
[02:23:08] like you're fighting a war and it's like
[02:23:09] can you show me the one single gun that
[02:23:11] will defeat the enemy like it's
[02:23:12] nonsensical no uh however this seems
[02:23:16] well Andrew Andrew calm down Norway this
[02:23:19] seems to be um this seems to be so if
[02:23:23] you Google like uh maternal leave effect
[02:23:26] on fertility rates from what I say just
[02:23:28] literally scrolling through there are
[02:23:30] dozens of Articles it seems like a
[02:23:32] really clear-cut answer of course no one
[02:23:34] thing can fix everything you have to try
[02:23:36] multiple things and oftentimes these
[02:23:38] programs end up getting defunded too for
[02:23:41] example a whole bunch of the like
[02:23:43] paternity leave and like subsidy
[02:23:45] programs and a bunch of like healthcare
[02:23:47] stuff in like the UK and Sweden other
[02:23:48] countries countries has been defunded
[02:23:50] from right-wing governments so even if
[02:23:52] there is a short-term benefit it kind of
[02:23:55] gets cut out in the long term by the
[02:23:56] fact that there are people like Andrew
[02:23:58] who will gut those policies
[02:24:00] um I I think that if you care about
[02:24:02] preserving uh birth rights and making
[02:24:04] things better like it's literally like
[02:24:06] you Google the study this improves the
[02:24:08] thing so like yeah you know it's a
[02:24:10] pretty simple policy I don't know why
[02:24:11] Andrew wants to keep others away from
[02:24:13] their children but you know well let's
[02:24:14] uh what's the most interesting here is
[02:24:16] that this country that is cited Norway
[02:24:18] is on the decline in this birth rates
[02:24:20] there is no reversal he's lying to you
[02:24:22] again what he's trying to do is he's
[02:24:24] trying to say that there are some
[02:24:25] policies which can mitigate to the
[02:24:26] decline which was already conceded to 15
[02:24:28] times he has not given us even a
[02:24:30] collection and I said this word the word
[02:24:32] collection of policies even which would
[02:24:35] actually have a reversal effect because
[02:24:38] all he can come up with is materialist
[02:24:39] throw money at it but every place that
[02:24:42] we've thrown money at it there is no
[02:24:46] reversal they're still on the downward
[02:24:48] Trend the data shows this overwhelmingly
[02:24:51] what he's doing is a red herring typical
[02:24:53] red herring any filibustered for like
[02:24:55] five minutes
[02:24:57] and still never actually showed us a
[02:25:00] reversal look at Norway's stats for
[02:25:02] yourself they're on the downward Trend
[02:25:04] are they not Bosh
[02:25:06] huh
[02:25:07] eyes Norway's birth rates not on the
[02:25:10] downward Trend the example you just used
[02:25:12] the study said that it was improved
[02:25:15] because of the policy
[02:25:18] wait can I can I actually answer this
[02:25:20] question
[02:25:21] you do realize policies can be defunded
[02:25:24] and other things can change right like
[02:25:26] this is again like saying like oh man
[02:25:28] dude my health really improved when I
[02:25:30] took those antibiotics but now my health
[02:25:32] has gone down and it's been like a month
[02:25:33] what's happened and it's like whoa you
[02:25:35] only took antibiotics twice and you
[02:25:36] haven't taken them at all for the past
[02:25:38] year has the policy been removed so uh
[02:25:40] well in a lot of cases it has been
[02:25:41] defunded well in Norway
[02:25:43] about Norway specifically what about why
[02:25:46] would you use this as an example for
[02:25:47] your example because you don't seem to
[02:25:50] understand I I know you don't actually
[02:25:51] give me arguments I know you don't
[02:25:53] actually
[02:25:54] well wait can I get a closer of course
[02:25:57] you guys will both get closing
[02:25:58] statements
[02:26:00] what was that not as closer
[02:26:03] no watch I totally understand the point
[02:26:04] you're trying to make uh but uh he did
[02:26:07] ask you a direct question about whether
[02:26:10] currently uh Norway's uh and by the way
[02:26:14] paternity leave is still fully funded in
[02:26:16] Norway
[02:26:20] the problem here and he's aware of this
[02:26:22] which is why he's he sounds like a
[02:26:24] giggling psychopath whenever he makes
[02:26:25] the bad points is that no you can never
[02:26:28] look at the effects
[02:26:30] by looking at a policy that was passed
[02:26:34] in 1990 and then going oh well 30 years
[02:26:36] later things are down again what you try
[02:26:38] to do is check to see if there's an
[02:26:40] effect that can be correlated or better
[02:26:42] even yet like demonstrated to be
[02:26:44] causatively associated with the policy
[02:26:46] in particular for example imagine if you
[02:26:48] were to take a look at like um hey does
[02:26:51] having uh does does Biden's uh uh child
[02:26:54] tax credits lower child poverty if you
[02:26:56] go back to the covid pandemic right or
[02:26:58] the covet crisis and you'll ask hey did
[02:27:01] this policy lower child poverty the
[02:27:03] answer is yes it cut it in half but now
[02:27:05] that's not an effect and other things
[02:27:07] have happened so it's like oh well what
[02:27:09] happened I thought it fixed child
[02:27:10] poverty in reality the standards that
[02:27:13] Andrew is setting for analyzing policy
[02:27:15] would not work and don't apply anywhere
[02:27:17] which is why these are all these are all
[02:27:19] fair points but I still think you should
[02:27:21] answer his initial question he doesn't
[02:27:23] what is the what does it know how well
[02:27:25] you don't even know what the question is
[02:27:28] what is the question
[02:27:31] your answer question how do you know
[02:27:33] what it is
[02:27:34] the question is currently is Norway's
[02:27:38] birth rate going down do you agree
[02:27:40] without disagree with that
[02:27:42] um I think technically it's actually
[02:27:43] risen in the past couple of years the
[02:27:45] last data point was from 2023 where they
[02:27:47] had um uh birth rates per a thousand
[02:27:50] people on a downward Trend or not Trend
[02:27:53] based on what based on the fact that it
[02:27:55] keeps going down as part of a trend well
[02:27:57] over the past five years it's actually
[02:27:59] gone up curious but the trends
[02:28:03] show the cope well the trend of the past
[02:28:06] five years is that it's going up Curious
[02:28:08] well let's take a look and even see Alex
[02:28:10] this is literally never going to end I
[02:28:13] brought up an article that proves
[02:28:14] everyone no yeah it doesn't prove
[02:28:16] anything it's two and a half hours he
[02:28:19] doesn't care about kids he doesn't care
[02:28:21] about God stop stop we do have to get
[02:28:24] into closing statements we're two hours
[02:28:26] and a half in you Andrew said you want
[02:28:27] to keep it two more than two hours watch
[02:28:29] you said you want to wrap up but two
[02:28:31] hours and a half mark so both of you
[02:28:32] guys want to wrap up I promise you can
[02:28:34] make all the points you want your
[02:28:36] closing statements uh like I have to go
[02:28:39] it's two and a half hours in I thought
[02:28:40] it'd be two
[02:28:41] oh um do you have a minute or two
[02:28:44] to make posing stage yeah
[02:28:46] okay go ahead oh yeah um literally like
[02:28:50] you can Google policies to help
[02:28:51] fertility rates oh bambo there's
[02:28:53] Solutions
[02:28:54] um all of Andrew the reason why he does
[02:28:56] like The Psychotic laugh and the reason
[02:28:57] he's chained smoked like 26 throughout
[02:28:59] the entirety of this conversation is
[02:29:01] because his only actual like
[02:29:02] prescription is that he's a fascist and
[02:29:04] that's it um he doesn't give a
[02:29:05] about anything he doesn't care about God
[02:29:07] he's not an orthodox he has no real
[02:29:08] beliefs um like most fascists he
[02:29:10] believes that the world is
[02:29:11] anti-impericist that everyone else is
[02:29:13] just as slimy as he is in reality it's
[02:29:15] just him and he's alone he's severe
[02:29:17] interpersonal problems with others he
[02:29:19] clearly can't get along with me and I'm
[02:29:20] a very easy guy to like like I don't
[02:29:22] know what to do when you pull up a book
[02:29:23] that says this policy works and he's
[02:29:25] like well well well so like I think that
[02:29:28] if there's any resounding point to be
[02:29:30] made from him it's uh immense personal
[02:29:32] unlikability uh and for me it's a set of
[02:29:34] sensible policies that you can adopt if
[02:29:36] you care about uh producing more
[02:29:37] children
[02:29:39] okay uh thank you vosh that's my
[02:29:41] rational argument you want to really
[02:29:43] quickly plug your channel before you go
[02:29:44] uh I'm also Vash
[02:29:46] all right cool uh I appreciate you
[02:29:48] coming on I thought this was a really
[02:29:50] good discussion and I have my closer now
[02:29:52] yeah of course I understand that uh may
[02:29:54] not stick around for it but yeah as of
[02:29:57] as of 2022 there were a total of 51 480
[02:30:01] newborns in Norway
[02:30:03] that might sound like a lot but it
[02:30:04] actually marks a drastic drop in the
[02:30:06] fertility rate within the country and
[02:30:08] it's on the downward Trend this is
[02:30:10] according to Norway's own stats as much
[02:30:12] as the Gish Gallop goes but let's go go
[02:30:15] back into this Bosch was blowing out on
[02:30:17] ethics she had no argument there all
[02:30:19] criticisms directed at me were equally
[02:30:21] directed at him he said that I'm not an
[02:30:24] Orthodox Christian he has no nothing to
[02:30:26] back that up whatsoever it's just some
[02:30:28] declarative statement that he makes up
[02:30:29] he's called me a fascist but when we're
[02:30:31] trying to go through that he ran from as
[02:30:33] fast as he possibly could tried to fill
[02:30:35] the most of the time as much as he could
[02:30:36] he also at the start of this remember
[02:30:38] said the birth rate itself is no
[02:30:41] problems no issue it's not even anything
[02:30:43] you got to worry about by the end of the
[02:30:45] debate he's scrambling desperately
[02:30:47] because his logic led him to notate this
[02:30:50] one key point if the Immigrant countries
[02:30:53] also have a below average birth rate
[02:30:55] this is vashon's words
[02:30:57] you're not going to be able to migrate
[02:30:59] them anymore we have a big problem he
[02:31:01] said that himself
[02:31:02] so finally we get to the concession this
[02:31:04] is an issue when I ask him what is your
[02:31:07] solution to this which I would have been
[02:31:08] happy to give mine instead he says
[02:31:10] something mild like we'll throw some
[02:31:13] money at it and hopefully even though
[02:31:15] that does a small mitigation of the
[02:31:17] problem but does not reverse the trend
[02:31:19] we will continue on this ever more
[02:31:22] throwing materialism at this even though
[02:31:25] it has done absolutely nothing in any of
[02:31:27] these Western Nations to uh reverse the
[02:31:30] trend whatsoever uh in fact I would also
[02:31:34] say vosh is literally one of the most
[02:31:36] bad faith opponents I've ever debated
[02:31:38] with uh but I'm actually fine with that
[02:31:41] I don't I don't really care that much
[02:31:43] because his arguments weren't very good
[02:31:45] so ultimately all he had was your mean
[02:31:48] and a fascist and hard to get along with
[02:31:49] I've gone along with vosh fine for a
[02:31:51] year he's been on The Crucible multiple
[02:31:53] times never had a bad engagement with
[02:31:55] him behind the scenes total fabrication
[02:31:57] and there as well not a single
[02:32:00] problem with the guy behind the scenes
[02:32:02] means he says I have issues with
[02:32:04] interpersonal relationships yet he's
[02:32:06] come on my show multiple times without
[02:32:08] any of these interpersonal relationships
[02:32:10] what this is It's just typical over
[02:32:12] talkifying right the mod allowed way too
[02:32:14] much of that that's his show I can't say
[02:32:16] anything about that but my arguments
[02:32:19] were far better and he never did make an
[02:32:22] actual demonstration for why I was wrong
[02:32:24] about any singular point that I made
[02:32:27] and with that I'll close and I
[02:32:29] appreciate very much even the time of
[02:32:31] vosh uh who's more than welcome to come
[02:32:33] back on The Crucible and do debates in
[02:32:35] the future I take none of this
[02:32:36] personally and never have with any of
[02:32:39] the interlocutors that I've engaged with
[02:32:42] cool
[02:32:44] um yeah I know boss you got to go Andrew
[02:32:46] would you do you mind staying off for
[02:32:47] another 20 minutes of course all right
[02:32:50] cool yeah launch appreciate you I
[02:32:51] thought this was a really really
[02:32:53] interesting debate uh and I personally
[02:32:56] enjoyed watching it I had to step in way
[02:32:59] more than I usually do Andrew you've
[02:33:01] seen a lottery many times I never ever
[02:33:03] step in this much but I thought it was
[02:33:04] appropriate hopefully you guys both
[02:33:06] thought I did a fair job I was trying to
[02:33:07] be as Fair as possible Alex you were a
[02:33:10] dream and I appreciated your moderation
[02:33:11] very much Andrew I hope you find God
[02:33:14] I hope you do too have a good one and
[02:33:17] Jenny Craig
[02:33:21] Chad I didn't get that joke what was the
[02:33:23] joke yeah don't worry about it boss no
[02:33:25] biggie
[02:33:26] wait what's Jenny Craig a weight loss
[02:33:29] Pro is that like a boomer reference
[02:33:31] because I've never heard of that before
[02:33:32] yeah so anyway holy dude oh my God
[02:33:35] hello Benjamin yeah okay he that I think
[02:33:38] that actually might have been one of the
[02:33:40] most bad faith maybe the most bad faith
[02:33:42] conversation I think I've ever had
[02:33:44] actually unlike every level he never
[02:33:46] actually wanted to talk right like he
[02:33:48] would take every excuse he could to not
[02:33:50] talk about the thing we were talking
[02:33:52] about like the like remember what I said
[02:33:54] hey I think good things are good haha
[02:33:56] and like oh okay so here's some policies
[02:33:57] and then I talked for five minutes and
[02:33:59] he's like so you said good is good what
[02:34:01] do you mean by that no yeah incredible I
[02:34:04] mean I don't think I've ever reached a
[02:34:06] point in a conversation where Not only
[02:34:08] would they move the goal posts that
[02:34:10] flagrantly but also I have an article up
[02:34:12] describing the thing they're trying to
[02:34:14] press me on and and and he's just like
[02:34:17] like it's it's I genuinely think that's
[02:34:20] like you unique to him self-critical
[02:34:22] rhetorical analysis I don't think
[02:34:24] there's anything I can critique myself
[02:34:25] on there because it's not even really
[02:34:27] like a debate the whole thing was like I
[02:34:29] think that my um estimation of him at
[02:34:31] the end was completely correct he's not
[02:34:32] an Orthodox Christian he doesn't believe
[02:34:34] in anything he he has low self-esteem
[02:34:37] and he postures his masculine like
[02:34:39] remember in mid debate when he started
[02:34:40] trying to like alpha male make he does
[02:34:42] the masculine posturing and the like
[02:34:44] anti-emperism like deliberate argument
[02:34:46] flipping as a way of just like shifting
[02:34:48] around to try to like uh I don't know
[02:34:50] grab at some kind of like positive
[02:34:52] feeling or stimuli but I don't think
[02:34:54] there was like really a debate there
[02:34:56] like what what did we debate we couldn't
[02:34:58] debate metaethics because he was um he
[02:35:01] didn't understand the difference between
[02:35:02] making like a prescriptive Claim about
[02:35:06] something meta-ethical and acknowledging
[02:35:08] the meta-ethical arbitrarity the
[02:35:09] equivalent position from him would be to
[02:35:11] admit that he doesn't know if God exists
[02:35:12] and that he thinks that any God that
[02:35:14] existed would be arbitrarily defined but
[02:35:16] he can't say that of course he probably
[02:35:18] doesn't actually believe in God so it
[02:35:19] doesn't really matter that was supposed
[02:35:20] to be debating Christian nationalism he
[02:35:22] he still never listed a policy literally
[02:35:26] the only thing he wanted to talk about
[02:35:27] was like uh yeah I'd ban abortion yeah
[02:35:29] no dude you're a fashion like of
[02:35:31] course you bet I know you've been
[02:35:32] abortion but like what is that like but
[02:35:35] like he never gave anything I think he
[02:35:38] was trying to do like the modern version
[02:35:39] of that like Marcus or anything you know
[02:35:42] that guy that uh uh h-bomb made a video
[02:35:44] on ages ago the guy who would like drink
[02:35:46] out of the skull cup and have a cigar
[02:35:48] and he would like pretend to drink
[02:35:49] whiskey and he was like the masculine
[02:35:50] philosopher Warrior whatever I think
[02:35:52] he's trying to do that Davis Arena
[02:35:54] yeah yeah I think he was trying to like
[02:35:55] hit those
[02:35:57] points you're literally subhuman the way
[02:35:59] you have that much patience bro holy
[02:36:01] I've never been at a point where
[02:36:04] literally it's like tell me whether this
[02:36:06] policy would work and I Google an
[02:36:08] article and then link it to him and I'm
[02:36:09] like hey so here's the policy and then I
[02:36:11] read the part where it says how it would
[02:36:13] work and he's like what are you doing
[02:36:14] you're not even saying anything that's
[02:36:16] not even what I said you that I wanted
[02:36:18] you know oh and the fascism thing where
[02:36:21] he was like uh uh you called me a
[02:36:24] fascist yeah I used to be called Big
[02:36:25] Papa fascist but like let's argue in
[02:36:27] fascism I bet you're more fascist than I
[02:36:29] am and then then he's like pick any
[02:36:31] point I'm like okay modernism rejection
[02:36:33] of modernism and then he tried to argue
[02:36:35] that Marx was not a modernist and that
[02:36:39] in fact an anti-liberal Divine command
[02:36:43] Theory believer was the real modernist
[02:36:46] what the actual is going on like
[02:36:51] like how do you have a conversation in
[02:36:53] that car like how how do you in any
[02:36:56] world so this when I say that I wouldn't
[02:36:59] like I don't want to like talk to Nick
[02:37:00] Fuentes with a moderator or whatever
[02:37:02] that's an example of why because the
[02:37:04] only reasonable sensible intelligent
[02:37:06] rational logical thing to do with
[02:37:08] somebody like that is just to make fun
[02:37:09] of them a bunch like the pretense of a
[02:37:12] debate there was a was a formal
[02:37:14] constructs
[02:37:16] that was it was undeserving you know
[02:37:18] what I mean I'm convinced he considers
[02:37:20] himself as evil and you have to be have
[02:37:22] a hatred for Humanity to be that bad
[02:37:23] faith well I think a lot of fascists are
[02:37:26] like overtly anti-impericist in the
[02:37:28] sense that they like genuinely really do
[02:37:31] not believe in anything other than power
[02:37:32] but like it's it's pretty tough for him
[02:37:34] the weird thing is I feel like he could
[02:37:36] have played that a lot better too if he
[02:37:39] had truly no beliefs which he doesn't I
[02:37:41] feel like he could have navigated that a
[02:37:43] lot more sensibly you never said
[02:37:44] post-modernist he literally tried to
[02:37:46] Gaslight you the funniest element of
[02:37:48] gaslighting was at the end when Alex
[02:37:50] asked Andrew to list out what specific
[02:37:53] policy I wanted to describe and he said
[02:37:55] would help reverse the trend of lowering
[02:37:59] birth rates
[02:38:00] and then I said here's a policy that
[02:38:02] would help reverse the trend and he was
[02:38:04] like no no no what I actually said was
[02:38:06] would completely fix it on its own
[02:38:08] forever and he did that within like two
[02:38:11] seconds you know did you find open Nazis
[02:38:13] more or less bad faith when you debated
[02:38:15] them back in the day no um they were
[02:38:17] more good faith back in the day I think
[02:38:18] the Nazis that I talked to I don't know
[02:38:20] if he's a Nazi I know he's a fascist I
[02:38:21] don't know if he's a Nazi I think the
[02:38:23] problem is that a lot of the guys who
[02:38:25] are in like the super far right pipeline
[02:38:27] or whatever they want to be like logic
[02:38:29] Bros they want they want to do this
[02:38:31] whole like oh wow liberals think they're
[02:38:33] smart well I'm gonna outlogic them but
[02:38:35] the problem is there's no way to
[02:38:36] logically defend the things they believe
[02:38:38] so inevitably most of them turn over to
[02:38:40] like very open anti-empirical
[02:38:42] irrationalism you wish Alex did more to
[02:38:44] mod no no not really I wish there was
[02:38:46] like no mod at all because there was
[02:38:47] like no argument right there was no
[02:38:49] there was no like actual argument so
[02:38:51] there's no like there's nothing to
[02:38:52] moderate really and then and then when
[02:38:54] we talked about Japan and he was like
[02:38:55] hmm vosh it seems we really are the same
[02:38:58] vosh you say said that I inflict my
[02:39:02] ethics on others I never said this but
[02:39:05] you want to do the same by supporting
[02:39:07] paid overtime in Japan like what it's
[02:39:09] it's like he had a list of gotchas that
[02:39:13] he was ready but he didn't set that one
[02:39:15] up so like he he was at some point he
[02:39:18] was going to fend the idea of like
[02:39:19] forcibly support suppressing the world
[02:39:21] and making it Christian that's why he
[02:39:23] didn't challenge my framing when I said
[02:39:25] he was going to say that supporting
[02:39:26] another country's labor movement and
[02:39:28] invading Poland as Hitler are the same
[02:39:30] because that's basically what he was
[02:39:32] arguing like he was going to argue that
[02:39:34] any amount of death and destruction from
[02:39:35] his like ideology is fine because I
[02:39:38] believe that I can argue for my ethics
[02:39:40] too advice your ethics don't cause
[02:39:42] negative effects on others and apply to
[02:39:43] every human I correct the argument bro
[02:39:46] you want to force your ethics on others
[02:39:48] is completely meaningless the whole
[02:39:50] point of Ethics is to moderate Behavior
[02:39:53] if you have ethical positions but don't
[02:39:55] believe they apply to anyone other than
[02:39:57] yourself you don't actually have an
[02:39:59] ethical system you just have like self
[02:40:01] moderation you don't actually have like
[02:40:02] an ethical framework everyone who
[02:40:04] believes in ethics believes in like
[02:40:06] making an argument to others the
[02:40:07] question is are your ethics good will
[02:40:10] they help or hurt people that's one and
[02:40:12] two do you have good or bad ways of
[02:40:14] applying it to others so for example I
[02:40:16] think it's ethically wrong to do forced
[02:40:19] uh female gender mutilation I think
[02:40:21] that's morally wrong I think that my
[02:40:23] thinking that's bad is superior to
[02:40:27] people who think that's good I think
[02:40:30] that I'm better than them in that
[02:40:32] respect now one way that I could
[02:40:34] potentially apply my ethical belief to
[02:40:36] them would be doing the like British
[02:40:38] thing and like invading them and
[02:40:39] imposing my ethics I don't think this is
[02:40:41] an effective way of making ethical
[02:40:43] arguments sometimes it is for example
[02:40:45] when we took issue with what serbians
[02:40:48] were doing to uh uh kosovars albanians
[02:40:51] We've NATO bombed them okay sure when we
[02:40:54] take issue with the Holocaust we invade
[02:40:56] Germany okay
[02:40:58] sure you know all right that tracks but
[02:41:01] I think for the most part it's generally
[02:41:03] better to make an argument and get
[02:41:05] people on board with it as part of their
[02:41:07] own self-interest you know I would
[02:41:09] rather countries that practice female
[02:41:11] General mutilation do it because
[02:41:13] culturally they shift away from that due
[02:41:15] to like feminism or whatever then
[02:41:17] because the British Empire invaded them
[02:41:20] or whatever how does he understand rule
[02:41:21] utilitarianism though that's confused me
[02:41:23] he doesn't understand what
[02:41:24] utilitarianism is that he doesn't know I
[02:41:27] genuinely my my general position when I
[02:41:29] talk to people like that is there's not
[02:41:31] that much point in it outside
[02:41:32] galvanizing my own audience because my
[02:41:34] goal is hey all the people on my side
[02:41:36] look at this recording of a debate like
[02:41:38] look at this video isn't this guy insane
[02:41:41] like this is what the other side is like
[02:41:43] and I think that I'm effective in doing
[02:41:45] that for the most part but I don't think
[02:41:46] I can move over their audience not just
[02:41:48] because it's smaller well playing with
[02:41:50] fires audience isn't small but I don't
[02:41:51] think they have that much people in the
[02:41:52] live stream not only because of that but
[02:41:54] also because I feel like anybody who
[02:41:56] likes Andrew to begin with is is pretty
[02:41:58] tough to save you know what I mean it's
[02:42:01] it's kind of like the pronouns guy right
[02:42:04] like if you make arguments against him
[02:42:07] you're not really doing it to move his
[02:42:10] audience over you're doing it so that a
[02:42:14] lot of people can have like like an
[02:42:17] effigy to burn you know to have
[02:42:19] something to point at and go like that's
[02:42:21] what they're like
[02:42:22] so don't go over there because it's
[02:42:24] crazy you know so it's it's it's more
[02:42:27] like that I think the issue is his
[02:42:28] audience has fundamentally different
[02:42:29] axioms no no I I disagree so he has an
[02:42:33] incoherent ethical system he claims that
[02:42:35] it's divine command Theory but he's not
[02:42:37] he doesn't care uh in reality it's the
[02:42:40] same like incoherent fascist
[02:42:42] irrationalism that we've seen in many
[02:42:43] other places it's not that they have
[02:42:45] different axioms even if you take a
[02:42:47] fascist or a Nazi out of their Echo
[02:42:48] chamber and try to do like a one-off
[02:42:50] like ethics with them most of them will
[02:42:52] agree to the same basic axiomatic
[02:42:54] positions like seriously I I would know
[02:42:56] I mean I've talked to plenty of Nazis
[02:42:58] you talk to a Nazi and you're like hey
[02:42:59] do you think human well-being is good
[02:43:01] most of them will say yeah that's
[02:43:03] because the axioms that I think moral
[02:43:06] anti-realists have to subscribe to they
[02:43:09] are inter-subjectively believed in they
[02:43:11] they're they're inter subjectively true
[02:43:13] there's something that humans just tend
[02:43:15] to gravitate towards you know you could
[02:43:17] get people to agree with the idea of
[02:43:19] people generally should be good that is
[02:43:22] good Wellness is Good from like the
[02:43:24] Mongol Empire you could get you know you
[02:43:26] could get that everywhere why do
[02:43:28] essentially all your debate opponents
[02:43:29] have no ethical system well because the
[02:43:31] right has to be like that what was even
[02:43:33] his solution to the birth rate nothing
[02:43:36] like yeah there are countries that have
[02:43:38] abortion banned that are also Syria like
[02:43:40] suffering a falling birth rate like he
[02:43:41] did but he didn't have anything like he
[02:43:43] did yeah you know the more we we whine
[02:43:45] about fascist incoherence the uh you
[02:43:47] know the the more dignity we do it uh it
[02:43:50] was I was a it was a silly goofy goober
[02:43:52] debate so some hold on speaking of
[02:43:55] debate somebody said that um the
[02:43:57] wisecrack channel has me at the
[02:44:00] beginning of a video or like me or like
[02:44:02] this video is making fun of me or
[02:44:03] something hold on uh how debate got
[02:44:06] stupid that's true today we're going to
[02:44:08] talk about debate or the lack thereof
[02:44:11] and why people on the internet in
[02:44:13] particular this website love it so much
[02:44:15] debate is the oil coal and gas of the
[02:44:19] internet it ferments amongst the masses
[02:44:21] and Twitter threads and subreddits oops
[02:44:24] um we meant in HEX threads and
[02:44:26] subreddits it racks up viral views for
[02:44:29] streamers I'm covering Destiny here is
[02:44:31] like this I'm sorry this isn't true
[02:44:34] that water has not always been H2O yeah
[02:44:37] all you have to do is cross the Mexican
[02:44:38] border and over there it's aqua that's
[02:44:42] H2O it circulates via So based that clip
[02:44:45] you know what's funny people reference
[02:44:47] that nobody's actually said what was
[02:44:49] wrong with it still true still classic
[02:44:51] the whole the whole point of the
[02:44:53] discussion was he was arguing that trans
[02:44:55] women can't be women because women has a
[02:44:57] specific definition and I was arguing
[02:44:59] that definitions vary all the time
[02:45:01] between countries like like the like the
[02:45:04] definition of building like what is a
[02:45:06] building
[02:45:07] right like like is is like a something
[02:45:11] you've built like for a dog is that a
[02:45:13] building is like a whole dug in a wall
[02:45:14] with like a Little Rock in front a block
[02:45:16] at a building does it vary country to
[02:45:17] country do some countries have different
[02:45:19] definitions of building I bet you that
[02:45:21] most people wouldn't really consider
[02:45:22] like a mud hut to be a building but
[02:45:25] cultures that um historically built with
[02:45:27] more mud like in Mexico or whatever
[02:45:28] maybe would be more likely to say that
[02:45:30] and Civic definitions change as well
[02:45:32] I've still never seen anybody give an
[02:45:34] actual okay so like here's here's
[02:45:36] another big one right what is water like
[02:45:38] H2O right yeah cool okay so is heavy
[02:45:41] water water
[02:45:42] like it's not even H2O is that
[02:45:44] considered water well it's like oh well
[02:45:46] technically it's not water but maybe
[02:45:48] people call it water oh so one word
[02:45:50] could have multiple definitions right
[02:45:51] and even like a single term okay
[02:45:54] um is water that I have taken from a
[02:45:56] river water well yeah sure it's river
[02:45:58] water right so is it water so if I hold
[02:46:00] up a bucket and I say it's full of water
[02:46:02] would I be lying if I had just taken the
[02:46:06] water from the river and basically
[02:46:08] everyone would say no like no that's
[02:46:10] water and then I say oh but what about
[02:46:12] the fact that it has detritus in it it
[02:46:14] has a sediment look about two percent of
[02:46:17] the water that I've just scooped up is
[02:46:19] actually like dirt and stuff so is it
[02:46:20] still water and they're like yeah yeah
[02:46:23] it's water sure okay so what if I put
[02:46:26] what if the two percent of not water in
[02:46:28] in the water was actually cyanide that's
[02:46:31] a lethal dose by the way two percent of
[02:46:33] a bucket of water so now is it water so
[02:46:35] like if I gave you a bucket of water and
[02:46:38] I put two percent by mass cyanide in it
[02:46:42] and I said yeah dude it's just water
[02:46:44] what's the issue it's water check it out
[02:46:45] would I be lying most people would say
[02:46:48] yeah well why wait how am I telling the
[02:46:51] truth
[02:46:52] if it's water with two percent sediment
[02:46:55] from a river
[02:46:56] like people would agree that's water
[02:46:59] but I'm but I am lying if I say it's
[02:47:02] water
[02:47:03] and the two percent is cyanide I know
[02:47:06] this sounds dumb but I'm actually
[02:47:07] hitting on the basic
[02:47:10] linguistic truth of utility in reality
[02:47:14] whether or not it's water whether or not
[02:47:16] you're lying about whether or not it's
[02:47:18] water is a socially determined
[02:47:23] determination it's a social
[02:47:24] determination which is oriented around
[02:47:27] utility the reason people would say the
[02:47:29] river water even though it's also two
[02:47:31] percent not water is water you're not
[02:47:34] lying to say it's water when they
[02:47:35] wouldn't say the same with the cyanide
[02:47:36] is because the water with a bit of
[02:47:39] sediment in it is uh functionally water
[02:47:42] right
[02:47:43] like
[02:47:44] it's still water
[02:47:46] you know like it's a bucket of water
[02:47:48] it's got some crap at the bottom it's
[02:47:49] water right
[02:47:52] if you said this is water no one would
[02:47:54] challenge you but with the cyanide well
[02:47:56] now that has a very different utility
[02:47:58] doesn't it very very different extremely
[02:48:01] different one might say now sure it may
[02:48:04] be the same amount of water as the water
[02:48:07] with the river sediment but it has a
[02:48:09] very different use doesn't it here's
[02:48:11] another good example okay one more good
[02:48:14] example that we can also use for water
[02:48:15] all right let's say that you're in a
[02:48:18] laboratory and you use water as part of
[02:48:21] your laboratory process I don't know
[02:48:23] something to do with petri dish and
[02:48:24] bacteria whatever now the water they use
[02:48:26] in environments like that has to be very
[02:48:28] pure very very pure it has to be very
[02:48:33] specific in its uh a chemical
[02:48:36] composition it has to be very clean now
[02:48:38] imagine if somebody said like hey
[02:48:40] specimen 23 is looking a little dry can
[02:48:42] you bring me some water and you brought
[02:48:44] like tap water yeah dude got water and
[02:48:46] you like poured some tap water in you
[02:48:49] have brought them water but you still
[02:48:51] up right and not only did you
[02:48:53] up but if you knew that you were
[02:48:55] using tap water and you held it up and
[02:48:58] you said yeah it's water bro wouldn't
[02:49:00] you be lying how is it a lie to say yeah
[02:49:03] this is water when talking to a
[02:49:04] scientist but not a lie to say yeah this
[02:49:06] is water when holding the same water to
[02:49:09] talking when talking to anyone else
[02:49:11] it's all about utility the aqua thing is
[02:49:14] still pretty silly gato means cat just
[02:49:15] like your cat means cat okay so here's a
[02:49:18] question do you think that the
[02:49:20] comparable word in any other language
[02:49:22] for any given object always refers to
[02:49:25] the exact same thing do you think it's
[02:49:27] possible that a word that we might
[02:49:28] consider to be a rough translation a
[02:49:30] comparable translation might Encompass
[02:49:32] slightly different ideas different
[02:49:33] parameter I bet you by the way and I'm
[02:49:36] not an expert in Spanish obviously or
[02:49:38] Spain or Mexico but I bet you that there
[02:49:41] are different cultural connotations
[02:49:43] behind gato and Cat even though they
[02:49:46] mean and refer to exactly the same thing
[02:49:49] now I made all of this clear in the
[02:49:52] debate that I had here like people take
[02:49:55] this one clip this one clip of me saying
[02:49:57] agua which is admittedly hilarious but I
[02:49:59] was making this argument in the context
[02:50:01] of a broader one about the utility of
[02:50:03] language which fits in of course with
[02:50:05] transgender people right because you
[02:50:07] could argue like well the definition of
[02:50:08] woman is X chromosome okay well help we
[02:50:12] make definitions we choose definitions
[02:50:14] why is there perhaps more social utility
[02:50:16] and a definition of woman that isn't
[02:50:18] biologically determinative especially
[02:50:19] since we know for an absolute fact that
[02:50:21] we refer to people as women who do not
[02:50:23] have X X chromosomes maybe they have
[02:50:25] Androgen insensitivity while having X Y
[02:50:28] chromosomes maybe we just don't know
[02:50:29] maybe they have the X X Y that I don't
[02:50:31] know you know so anyway the point that
[02:50:33] I'm getting at here is that I'm always
[02:50:34] right I've never been wrong and I'm
[02:50:36] always right vosh in English you can use
[02:50:38] the word tired to say you are fatigued
[02:50:40] or sleep deprived this crossover of
[02:50:41] Concepts doesn't work in Spanish
[02:50:43] wait really
[02:50:45] in Spanish their word for tire doesn't
[02:50:47] imply fatigued or slave deprived how
[02:50:49] does that work what what else does tired
[02:50:51] I don't know Linguistics is very
[02:50:54] complicated very very complicated people
[02:50:56] in chat were saying I get mentioned
[02:50:57] multiple times here what's up is that me
[02:50:59] at prageru okay so let's try to figure
[02:51:01] this all out in today's video to debate
[02:51:04] me bro culture kill debate okay before
[02:51:08] we we dive well that was me but my words
[02:51:11] weren't really used there and I I like
[02:51:12] hearing myself talk was this for my
[02:51:15] convo desire for these qualities
[02:51:16] conversely makes them far less receptive
[02:51:19] to any challenges to their points of
[02:51:20] view which is sort of the whole point of
[02:51:23] debates in the first place right you
[02:51:25] should change your mind ready right or
[02:51:28] true while online debates aren't
[02:51:30] inherently bad the culture surrounding
[02:51:32] them is pretty toxic and doesn't promote
[02:51:35] greater learning or introspection as
[02:51:36] much as an increase in blood pressure I
[02:51:39] agree with that completely by the way I
[02:51:41] mean we literally just did that the
[02:51:43] online debate can be good at getting
[02:51:45] dunks in and it can be good for like
[02:51:47] entertainment or whatever and sometimes
[02:51:49] it can be good for explaining a concept
[02:51:51] but I mean let me put it this way right
[02:51:53] I talked to this dude for like two hours
[02:51:55] and a lot of people seemed really
[02:51:57] confused about how I was describing the
[02:51:59] social utility value of language but I
[02:52:03] just described it in five minutes and I
[02:52:04] think everyone watching gets it right
[02:52:05] the whole point you know is it's a lot
[02:52:08] easier to describe in a non-combative
[02:52:10] environment debates aren't really about
[02:52:11] learning they're about power and there
[02:52:14] are debates where learning can happen
[02:52:16] don't get me wrong I don't think that
[02:52:17] every debate has to be like an online
[02:52:19] debate bro bad faith whatever at least I
[02:52:21] hope not I hope there's more to life
[02:52:22] than that you know it does get a little
[02:52:24] tiring sometimes oh did he just say the
[02:52:26] point of debate is to change the mind of
[02:52:28] your opponent did he did he say that
[02:52:30] that's not true commit us to expanding
[02:52:32] our thinking to Encompass what's right
[02:52:34] or true but rather to double down on how
[02:52:37] we argue that our thinking is already
[02:52:40] right or true while online debates
[02:52:42] aren't inherently bad the culture
[02:52:45] surrounding them is pretty toxic and
[02:52:47] doesn't promote greater learning or
[02:52:48] introspection as much as an increase in
[02:52:50] blood pressure now part of the problem
[02:52:52] uh it kind of said that it it kind of
[02:52:55] said that yeah changing a person's mind
[02:52:57] by debating them is not only difficult
[02:52:59] it's like scientifically found to be
[02:53:02] difficult like research on interpersonal
[02:53:05] interactions with through disagreement
[02:53:07] have shown that debate is
[02:53:10] incredibly bad at like changing people's
[02:53:14] minds you can do it and usually it's
[02:53:17] because you know a person well enough
[02:53:18] that you can appeal to your respective
[02:53:20] emotional bond but for the most part
[02:53:22] it's about playing games with the
[02:53:24] audience it's about looking good to it
[02:53:26] to a broader Community but that's my
[02:53:28] thing right like not every person
[02:53:30] watching this right now has an audience
[02:53:32] for which debate and I still think that
[02:53:34] learning to debate is valuable it helps
[02:53:36] you communicate and express yourself and
[02:53:38] those are really important skills what
[02:53:41] do you think are the negative
[02:53:42] consequence of online debate that should
[02:53:43] be talked about well the debate bro
[02:53:45] thing is to an extended thing well I I
[02:53:47] would say that the uh the ultimate like
[02:53:49] incarnation of the problem with online
[02:53:50] debate is is actually Destiny Destiny is
[02:53:53] really smart I mean I don't think anyone
[02:53:56] can deny that but I think that he he's
[02:53:58] kind of gone down a path where in many
[02:54:00] cases the satiation of his feeling of
[02:54:02] intellectual superiority takes
[02:54:04] precedence over anything material in a
[02:54:07] debate whether that be what's actually
[02:54:09] true like I'll put it this way he's been
[02:54:11] known to do the thing where he doesn't
[02:54:13] believe something but will play Devil's
[02:54:14] Advocate because he's like hey I bet
[02:54:16] these stupid lefties don't even know how
[02:54:17] to debate against it yeah I bet let me
[02:54:19] take this position yeah you have no
[02:54:21] chance against me yeah and then
[02:54:22] afterwards he's like ah well I don't
[02:54:24] actually believe that but like they
[02:54:25] don't even believe this they're not even
[02:54:26] grounded I I think these would be
[02:54:28] examples of like a self history
[02:54:30] essentially right where where like truth
[02:54:33] and meaning and even purpose kind of
[02:54:35] takes second fiddle to using debate as a
[02:54:38] game to feel good which it often is and
[02:54:40] well I guess to an extent like everyone
[02:54:42] does this to an extent I do this to an
[02:54:43] extent too I think he does it a lot
[02:54:44] worse though ironically they were
[02:54:46] calling you esophage and Andrew's Chad
[02:54:47] the entire day yeah because people use
[02:54:48] that as like a go-to insole I try not to
[02:54:50] use it that much because conveying
[02:54:53] meaning is really difficult and I think
[02:54:56] that even very good faith very
[02:54:58] intelligent people will still sometimes
[02:55:00] kind of like get caught in the weeds or
[02:55:02] in an effort to defend themselves or
[02:55:04] their ego or they'll like realize that
[02:55:05] on a point they like slipped up a little
[02:55:07] blah blah you know I think that every
[02:55:09] human does that like you have to have
[02:55:10] incredible willpower to not do that so I
[02:55:14] I you know I I think it varies it varies
[02:55:17] do you think you could have done better
[02:55:18] in that debate wash that's like I mean
[02:55:20] that's like asking me if I could have
[02:55:21] done better in like
[02:55:22] naked mud wrestling I don't know I don't
[02:55:26] know what better means I don't know what
[02:55:28] we're trying to maximize for
[02:55:32] [Music]