# The Mindset Doctor: The Secret Man Behind The World's Top Performers | Professor Steve Peters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1hqsr5mkzA
Translation: zh-CN

[00:00] we have beliefs within us that are just

[00:02] too hard to remove and they may have

[00:04] come from traumatic experiences let's

[00:06] learn how to put it in a box Professor

[00:09] Steve Peters he's a world leading

[00:12] psychiatrist the author of a number of

[00:13] very influential books including the

[00:15] chimp Paradox a man who has helped

[00:17] multiple British athletes I've been

[00:19] seeing Steve for three years now look

[00:20] just any psychologist that's Dr Steve

[00:22] Peters and the person who wants to help

[00:24] people I started working with Chris Hoy

[00:26] I went undercover to the Athens Olympics

[00:28] so we could make sure that he got his

[00:30] gold medal and running a Solomon the

[00:32] emotion that that guy was getting at

[00:34] that point was to being so unpleasant

[00:36] that part way through a world

[00:37] championship shook hands and walked out

[00:40] so in Ronnie's case what do you do so

[00:42] the very first step is oh really and

[00:44] that is what winners do for people to

[00:47] shift they've got to have psychological

[00:49] mindedness which means they've got to

[00:50] understand that it's not about what

[00:52] happens to us in life it's how we deal

[00:54] with it what role does Early Childhood

[00:56] trauma play in how we respond in

[00:58] situations and well now we're really

[01:00] getting deep before we're even born the

[01:02] emotional memory is starting to react to

[01:04] that trauma your parent might suddenly

[01:05] say are you just an idiot but something

[01:07] might have happened just before that

[01:09] where you've got one out of ten and you

[01:10] were bottom of the spelling test and the

[01:12] two together get emotionally Tangled and

[01:15] that then damages the circus so you get

[01:18] people often who are very low

[01:19] self-esteem how does one go about

[01:21] working with someone who's got serious

[01:23] self-esteem issues I'm gonna be

[01:25] controversially I'd say

[01:28] whenever there's a podcast episode that

[01:30] I record that really has a profound

[01:32] impact on me I always want to provide a

[01:34] little bit of a disclaimer at the start

[01:36] to make sure that you give it a chance

[01:38] and this is one of those episodes that

[01:39] comes along once in a while which I

[01:41] absolutely absolutely adore because of

[01:43] the depth of wisdom and the potential it

[01:46] offers to change your life so what I'm

[01:47] going to ask you to do

[01:48] is to listen to this episode to give it

[01:51] a chance and to try and get to the end

[01:52] because this is one of the rare ones

[01:54] that once in a while I think will

[01:55] genuinely change your life it'll be one

[01:57] of those episodes that you pass around

[01:58] to your friends

[02:00] foreign

[02:02] [Music]

[02:06] how would you summarize your

[02:09] professional academic

[02:12] bio and experience

[02:15] okay that's a tough starter uh I would

[02:19] say that I'm a person who wants to help

[02:21] people

[02:22] so what I've done throughout life is in

[02:24] order to help people what do I need so

[02:27] one of the things I felt I needed when I

[02:29] was a young man is I needed a medical

[02:30] background

[02:32] so all of the work I've done like in

[02:34] Psychiatry and particularly becoming

[02:35] consult psychiatrist it wasn't that I

[02:37] wanted to be that it was I needed that

[02:39] in order to be able to help people

[02:41] effectively

[02:43] so my experience in life has always been

[02:45] the more people I can help and the more

[02:47] circumstances the better equipped I'll

[02:50] be to deal with whatever comes through

[02:52] the door so I think of it slightly

[02:54] different to be about a career it's more

[02:56] of an approach and an objective in life

[02:59] and then what I need to do is learn in

[03:02] order to be good at that in terms of

[03:03] your academic qualifications yeah what

[03:06] are those

[03:07] and pick my friends I'll laugh at this

[03:09] because I've got five degrees so it

[03:11] effectively

[03:12] um I started off doing mathematics but

[03:15] um and teaching but then I went back

[03:16] into medicine and then from there their

[03:18] scientific qualifications I've got

[03:20] medical degree and then I went through

[03:21] the Royal College so you specialize in

[03:23] Psychiatry and get your membership exams

[03:25] and then I've specialized again in

[03:27] looking at things like um because I got

[03:29] involved with sports people

[03:31] um I did an MSC so that we look at

[03:34] Sports Medicine itself again and brush

[03:36] up on my medical background because I'm

[03:37] still a doctor at heart and then because

[03:39] I teach at University I did an MSC in a

[03:42] medical education so I I sort of again

[03:45] following what I've said as a theme I I

[03:47] think what do I need and what would help

[03:49] me to do this and then so that's why

[03:51] I've collected these degrees

[03:54] um so that that was my academic

[03:55] background and then in terms of

[03:57] experience what give me um an overview

[04:00] of the sort of plethora of experience

[04:02] you've had practically working with

[04:04] people

[04:05] um in different contexts in Industries

[04:07] yeah I mean I went through a medical

[04:08] training and then you do your routine

[04:10] job so you mentioned surgery and so on

[04:12] and our Trend in general practice and

[04:14] then went into Psychiatry when I hit a

[04:16] psychiatrist one of my disciplines

[04:17] during training for GP from there in

[04:20] Psychiatry you look across a vast

[04:22] Spectrum you select your job so I

[04:24] covered General adult psychiatry then I

[04:27] covered old age Psychiatry a child

[04:29] psychiatry learning disability and

[04:32] adding into forensics so when you've

[04:34] done all that kind of training

[04:36] experience then you start to really

[04:37] specialize and initially I was going

[04:39] into specializing in old age Psychiatry

[04:42] um I felt the the

[04:44] um what the service at that time was a

[04:46] long time ago was quite poor for old age

[04:48] and there was very little research it's

[04:50] before I received it so the

[04:52] anti-dementia drug came out and uh I

[04:55] wanted to go into that field but by

[04:57] virtue of the fact I'm a teacher I got a

[04:59] post in sort of teaching and University

[05:01] alongside clinical work and that meant

[05:04] really I need to do General adults so I

[05:06] then set off in general adult psychiatry

[05:08] I did a lot of clinical work 20 years in

[05:11] the NHS but progressed because the

[05:13] difficult cases are often personality

[05:15] disorders and and how we manage them and

[05:18] particularly forensic style so

[05:19] Psychopathic clocally cold we'd call

[05:22] them dysocial personality disorders how

[05:25] do you manage these people so I ended up

[05:26] becoming by default a specialist in this

[05:29] field and then ended up working in a

[05:31] secure Hospital working with people

[05:33] under the mental health act to a

[05:35] detained of transgressed the law so then

[05:37] you go into the legal aspects of how we

[05:40] deal with people who have transgressed

[05:42] the law and are now held under the

[05:43] mental Health act almost indefinitely

[05:45] and you try and obviously get people

[05:48] back out of these secure hospitals if

[05:50] they're safe to come into the community

[05:51] so that in a nutshell is how my career

[05:54] develops so you end up with a vast

[05:56] experience over the last 40 years and

[05:59] then hopefully you can pull on that

[06:01] experience when you're working with

[06:02] working with everyday people

[06:05] um you ended up working in the field of

[06:07] sports yes which seems less

[06:10] obvious as a path for you to take based

[06:14] on your um you know based on your

[06:17] experience before that didn't seem like

[06:19] you're really aiming intentionally at

[06:20] working in Sports no not at all uh I'm

[06:23] not a sports fan I'm a people fan which

[06:26] means where people choose to work then I

[06:28] follow them and I've got to learn their

[06:30] world so

[06:32] um obviously you've got Sports

[06:33] Specialists Sports psychologists the

[06:34] Specialists I come in a bit left field I

[06:37] was in forensics at the time but I was

[06:39] still teaching at University one of my

[06:41] previous medical students I teach

[06:43] medicine went as a doctor

[06:46] um with a a cycling team that was

[06:49] working for the Olympics so I knew

[06:50] nothing about this and he called him

[06:52] he's an excellent student but he wanted

[06:54] an opinion on somebody who is a

[06:57] professional who was struggling mentally

[06:59] so I came in just to give an opinion and

[07:02] work with this guy now I can only name

[07:03] people who've you know gone public so I

[07:06] can't give names and

[07:08] um he excelled and then I can name the

[07:12] next person at that point I was

[07:14] introduced to Chris high and Chris an

[07:17] amazing guy absolutely amazing so really

[07:19] it wasn't easy I need a bit of work to

[07:21] do to help him to get his mind to do

[07:23] what he wanted to do with his mind uh he

[07:25] went off I went undercover to the Athens

[07:27] Olympics he asked me to go with him so

[07:29] we could make sure that he got his gold

[07:31] if I could contribute he got his gold

[07:33] medal and then said really I want you in

[07:36] the team so I didn't go off for a year

[07:38] and after a year I was convinced I was

[07:41] working Vicki Pendleton and I knew that

[07:43] needed a bit more work and she's again

[07:45] an amazing person a great people to work

[07:48] with and so I then took the leap

[07:51] um I mean at that point I said in

[07:53] towards retirement then so that's well

[07:55] over 20 years ago now and then from

[07:58] there when I worked with them the

[08:00] swimming team came in British swimming

[08:01] and then it was just a I don't know a

[08:03] Cascade of all the teams and sire

[08:05] started working across the Olympic teams

[08:07] and then went off to Beijing Olympics

[08:09] and it just I don't know again momentum

[08:12] and I I just got this reputation well

[08:14] this guy can help you mentally

[08:16] um you know so I work alongside the

[08:18] cultures obviously they're the people

[08:19] who take them to the front and I do the

[08:21] mental side of it so it wasn't a planned

[08:23] routine and I still do all my other work

[08:25] I still work with the public I still

[08:28] work in other areas with doctors with in

[08:31] the NHS with the the police I've done a

[08:33] lot of work with uh business people so

[08:35] it it just became generic at that point

[08:37] sir David brailsford who's been on this

[08:39] podcast

[08:41] um who was the performance director I

[08:42] believe of the British cycling team took

[08:44] over a time when it was struggling and

[08:46] led it to become maybe the greatest

[08:48] cycling team of all time he he says that

[08:51] your appointment was the I quote the

[08:54] best appointment

[08:56] he's ever made

[08:58] now when I think about

[09:00] you know you getting that first call

[09:01] from that first athlete the one you said

[09:03] were struggling

[09:04] um and then working with Chris hoy

[09:08] what exactly are you doing for them

[09:11] I think this is like no matter who comes

[09:13] in the door say you come to me what I've

[09:15] got says I'm not I'm not a sports

[09:17] psychologist I'm not the specialist what

[09:19] I am is a specialist in the human mind

[09:21] so I've made that my career and so I

[09:24] look at how the mind thinks how it

[09:26] functions and I ask you to First be a

[09:28] student really and I want you to learn

[09:30] your unique mind I'm going to give you

[09:32] the blueprint then together we're going

[09:34] to work out how you perceive the world

[09:36] perceive yourself perceive others what

[09:38] do you want to do with your life when

[09:41] we've done all of that then an only then

[09:44] would ask to go into your world so then

[09:46] we can apply what you've learned so it

[09:48] was interesting that two people I work

[09:50] with the public again were Vicki

[09:52] Pendleton

[09:54] um it was probably still the world's

[09:56] most successful female Sprint on the

[09:57] bike and then running a Solomon in snoka

[10:00] and both were interviewed and they both

[10:02] said that to the Press they said you

[10:03] know he did not take us to sport he took

[10:06] us to ourself and work with us as people

[10:08] and so that we've gone in a good place

[10:11] then we went to sport then he said right

[10:13] what is it you're choosing to do with

[10:15] your life and then I have to learn then

[10:17] because obviously if you take me to your

[10:19] world I don't know your world so I've

[10:22] got to go in there and learn what it is

[10:24] you're experiencing how you're

[10:25] interpreting it it's a teamwork and then

[10:28] I have to test things out so that's

[10:30] basically what I did when I started

[10:31] working with Chris hoy he asked him what

[10:34] he was in wanting to do what was he

[10:36] finding easy what was he finding

[10:37] difficult and then try and work out what

[10:39] I felt he needed to do and how he

[10:41] managed his mind and then it keeps

[10:44] pushing this point it is a skill you've

[10:46] got to acquire it so I I don't have

[10:49] other people might be able to do a

[10:50] process I can't do that what I do is ask

[10:52] you to work with me and try things out

[10:55] where you're gaining a skill for example

[10:57] a skill of recognizing where the emotion

[10:59] is actually helpful or unhelpful whether

[11:01] you can remove the emotion or need to

[11:03] work with it or whether you can actually

[11:04] just dismiss it and learn how to move

[11:07] yourself on and so it's a skill to be

[11:09] able to recognize things and then know

[11:11] how to deal with that particular thing

[11:13] that you're experiencing could you give

[11:15] me a case study from one athlete you've

[11:16] worked with

[11:17] so that that will allow me to work

[11:19] through that process so first

[11:21] identifying the emotion potentially

[11:23] working on whether it's positive or

[11:24] negative how it's serving me and then

[11:26] how you might with your process lead me

[11:28] to a positive outcome productive well

[11:31] I'm going to pick um Chris Hyatt and

[11:32] Ronnie Sullivan on the grounds that both

[11:34] of them are very public about working

[11:35] with me and and they put out what I'm

[11:38] about to talk about so when I was Chris

[11:40] what he was saying he was doing the kilo

[11:42] at the time which is four Laps on a bike

[11:44] but it's very similar to doing 400

[11:45] meters where you know you've got to get

[11:48] the Judgment right if you go off too

[11:50] fast you burn out and you won't finish

[11:52] if you go off too slow you'll never get

[11:53] the ground back so it's a really tough

[11:55] really tough event

[11:58] um so in the key law I had to learn that

[12:00] um which wasn't too hard because I'm

[12:02] familiar with 400 meters so and then

[12:04] when I did that I have to test out what

[12:06] his beliefs are you know when he sets

[12:08] off on a bike where is he pulling his

[12:10] focus and that's what Chris was saying

[12:11] is when I set up on the bike my focus

[12:15] can be distracted and it will drift off

[12:17] and I might start thinking about what

[12:19] other people have just done when I'm

[12:20] watching my competitors or am I going

[12:22] fast enough or and you start to do an

[12:25] analysis now in his particular event

[12:28] what I said to him is it's not going to

[12:29] help you to do an analysis in this event

[12:32] some sport it is because you have a

[12:34] breathing space where you can analyze

[12:35] and then get back into what I call

[12:37] computer mode so he needs to program his

[12:40] mind to have a fixed leg speed a fixed

[12:43] markers on the track so that he's not

[12:45] thinking at all there's no analysis that

[12:48] was my summary of it so we tried that

[12:50] out so when he went to the Olympics

[12:53] everything was completely learning to

[12:55] switch off any thinking and Analysis and

[12:57] that's not easy easy said than done but

[12:59] we practice this so on the holding Camp

[13:02] which there's like a three-week camp

[13:03] before the Olympics I went to the

[13:05] holding camp in Newport Within and every

[13:07] day we practice this so we do 20 minutes

[13:10] of him learning to focus and then we had

[13:12] specifics on the bike for when he got on

[13:14] it to do this kilo

[13:16] um and to me he was an excellent student

[13:18] clearly he committed to it and he would

[13:21] say then that when he got on the bike

[13:23] and he went round the day of the

[13:24] Olympics he forgot where he was until he

[13:27] passed the line so to me that's like

[13:29] even complete Focus mode so again credit

[13:32] to Chris why is switching off his

[13:37] mind in such a way or focusing his mind

[13:39] in such a way okay why is that the

[13:41] Neuroscience is complex so I'm going to

[13:44] cut corners and do it very black and

[13:45] white and simplified it's complex but in

[13:48] a nutshell if you there are three

[13:50] systems in your head keeping it very

[13:52] simple it's much more complex than that

[13:54] but simplifying it one of the systems

[13:57] will hopefully to think very logically

[14:00] and I call that the human system it

[14:01] thinks logically but it's very slow

[14:04] which means if you operate with a human

[14:07] your body and your reflexes will slow

[14:10] down because you're analyzing as you go

[14:12] along and it slows the system so you're

[14:14] more pensive so that's really good in

[14:17] certain circumstances but it's awful in

[14:19] fast-moving Sports

[14:21] so if it goes into that it's very likely

[14:23] he's slow down it's not going to help

[14:26] him

[14:26] if he goes into the second system which

[14:29] will probably come back to the chimp

[14:31] system this is a primitive system which

[14:33] thinks it's more than just a reaction an

[14:36] impulsive system it thinks when it moves

[14:38] it can move at speed

[14:40] but it thinks emotionally so this is the

[14:43] part of his brain that will think

[14:44] thoughts that are not helpful such as

[14:47] should I go faster at this point and

[14:49] then it may make a decision to go faster

[14:51] and burn out so that would be crazy

[14:55] um final the third system is a computer

[14:57] it just needs programming the key to the

[15:00] computer particularly in sports is it

[15:02] moves so fast it's approximately 20

[15:05] times quicker than the human system so

[15:07] execute and it's about four times

[15:10] quicker than the chimp system so if you

[15:12] get into computer mode particularly fast

[15:13] moving sports it doesn't analyze or

[15:16] think it's automatic thinking so it

[15:19] works with keys like a computer is that

[15:22] the autopilot exactly it's an autopilot

[15:24] you're programmed it's a behavior that's

[15:27] programmed in but so when I came down

[15:29] the stairs to see you today I I know the

[15:31] route I've done it 100 times so I was I

[15:34] was holding my iPad but I was on

[15:36] autopilot yeah because I came down the

[15:37] stairs and your body knows what to do

[15:39] you don't need to think whereas if we

[15:40] put an obstacle in there then it will

[15:42] stop okay because it doesn't know what

[15:44] to do it's not programmed okay but

[15:46] you'll have to think man is is is the

[15:49] computer where our habit

[15:51] this habit formation yes all three do

[15:54] work together yeah but the computer is

[15:56] one that just blots out the other two or

[15:58] if they go silent it can operate and

[16:00] it's the computer that drives us to work

[16:02] or like you say it goes on a familiar

[16:04] track but it can also generate automatic

[16:07] thinking okay so when you meet somebody

[16:10] your chimp may start to think is this

[16:13] person going to like me am I going to

[16:14] come across okay it could give you

[16:16] anything

[16:17] um whereas the computer system is

[16:19] automatic so if you've programmed a

[16:22] belief that everybody loves me then it's

[16:24] much more likely when you meet people

[16:25] you're going to be very open

[16:28] um and your body language will be

[16:29] positive if you have I'm being severe

[16:31] obviously if you ever believe nobody

[16:33] likes me or I'm not as good as everyone

[16:34] else which unfortunately a lot of

[16:36] computers are programmed without then

[16:38] whenever you meet someone you're on edge

[16:40] and you're very conscious about what

[16:42] you're saying and doing because you

[16:43] figured that it's going to be the truth

[16:45] that they don't like and you're trying

[16:46] to overcome that belief which is so

[16:48] unhelpful now that I call the gremlin

[16:51] but these beliefs are programmed into us

[16:53] and we hold thousands of beliefs often

[16:55] without knowing what they are hmm

[16:59] okay we're going to come back to that

[17:00] because I want to talk about the gremlin

[17:01] the trauma and where all of those

[17:03] beliefs come from and how which ones we

[17:04] can resolve but to your point then about

[17:06] Chris Hoyle now so Chris was asking to

[17:08] how do in in my world he was saying how

[17:10] do I silence my human and chimp systems

[17:12] from analyzing and thinking which is

[17:14] their job and how do I go into computer

[17:16] mode so I forget where I am and just get

[17:18] on with the process and he did this

[17:20] nicely Ronnie Sullivan wasn't in that

[17:22] place and again Ronnie's giving me

[17:24] permission he keeps saying tell

[17:25] everybody everything but I won't tell

[17:27] you everything a lot of stuff is behind

[17:29] Nocturnals so he's a great guy I love

[17:31] running Sullivan we've been friends now

[17:33] for over 10 years so it's a privilege to

[17:34] work with him it's one of the hardest

[17:36] working of my students and and he's

[17:39] saying to me all the time he Rings

[17:40] regularly so I've spoken to him already

[17:41] yesterday uh so we talk but the key to

[17:44] Ronnie was his chimp was so active

[17:47] in being anxious about how he came

[17:50] across whether he'd perform well

[17:52] um what people would say how well his

[17:55] Rivals might be doing it was just giving

[17:56] him what is natural and healthy but

[17:59] extremely unhelpful and that was

[18:01] creating very anxious moments so before

[18:04] I met him I had a look because I didn't

[18:06] know anything about Ronnie and or

[18:08] snooker and I went online to say can I

[18:10] see some YouTubes of him and I saw him

[18:12] hitting uh the white ball with acoustic

[18:15] and I thought well obviously that's not

[18:16] the right thing to be doing and I saw

[18:18] him walk out of a competition which

[18:19] distressed me you know I didn't know the

[18:21] guy but I thought wow the emotion that

[18:24] that guy was getting at that point was

[18:25] to being so unpleasant that part way

[18:28] through a World Championships

[18:30] competition he just suddenly stopped for

[18:32] all the shook hands and walked out and I

[18:34] just thought you know when I saw that I

[18:36] definitely want to help this man and we

[18:38] went back and actually looked at that

[18:39] incident and I said what was it and I

[18:41] love this

[18:43] um and he challenged me at the beginning

[18:44] but after about an hour of chatting he

[18:46] said I get this because on that incident

[18:49] he said to me there was this voice

[18:51] sort of saying just go out of it you

[18:53] don't have to be I don't want to be here

[18:54] and he said and I'm saying to myself I

[18:57] want to play snooker I just want to

[18:59] enjoy the game and this voice got more

[19:01] strong sin right hit the queue and he

[19:03] said I hit the queue ball and he said

[19:05] I'm walking out and the voice is still

[19:06] going right just keep walking we're not

[19:09] we're out of here I can't deal with this

[19:12] um and he said now I get it there were

[19:14] two of me

[19:15] there was me trying to do what I want

[19:17] and there's this voice which I couldn't

[19:19] manage at all and I couldn't stop it

[19:22] doing what I wanted to do so once I

[19:24] explained the model to him

[19:27] um and the model isn't everyone it's for

[19:29] those who can relate to it he said I get

[19:31] this because my human system my chimp

[19:34] system are so different their poles

[19:36] apart so he's worked for 10 years saying

[19:38] how do I recognize and manage this chimp

[19:40] system so when he came to me it wasn't

[19:43] just in snow career his whole life

[19:45] he could say that his emotions were

[19:47] getting the better of him and it was a

[19:49] whole system that was emotionally driven

[19:50] and it was almost paranoid about things

[19:53] it was Defensive it was making him feel

[19:56] vulnerable it was giving him anxiety and

[19:59] it's a really powerful system

[20:01] so it varies in person to person some

[20:03] people are very simple chimp systems

[20:06] which are not that strong and others

[20:08] most of us have chimp systems we we

[20:10] really recognize they're there and they

[20:12] they mean business and they give us

[20:14] emotions which drive us to to do things

[20:16] make decisions have behaviors that often

[20:19] are destructive not just unconstructive

[20:21] so in Ronnie's case what what do you do

[20:23] right we started the game to recognize

[20:25] the systems and say right let's just

[20:28] start because again I try to take people

[20:30] through a series of steps rather than

[20:32] just throw things at them and so the

[20:34] very first step is let's define Who You

[20:36] Are and let's define what your chimp is

[20:39] like so we recognize because you're

[20:40] everyone's unique so I can't tell you

[20:43] who you are know what your system is

[20:45] I'll give you General things like this

[20:47] system is impulsive it doesn't think

[20:49] consequence it's quite emotionally

[20:51] driven when we're tired it takes over

[20:53] and people generally start I get that so

[20:56] neuroscientifically that's what happens

[20:57] in the brain so how do we start to

[21:00] recognize the difference and then when

[21:02] we do let's start simply to say what is

[21:04] it that's prodding my chimp into action

[21:07] and this is where it gets a little more

[21:09] complex the chimp system can just react

[21:12] so if I for example your friends with me

[21:14] and one day I just shout at you for some

[21:16] reason and get annoyed and your chimp

[21:18] system is most likely going to show it

[21:20] back but if it believes I'm not as good

[21:23] as other people or I can't Co-op it's

[21:25] likely to go quiet and feel very

[21:26] intimidated and hurt

[21:28] so again we have to work out what your

[21:30] chimp system is doing but on the other

[21:33] hand the chimp system the newer Sciences

[21:36] it always turns to the computer and says

[21:38] what beliefs do I hold before I make my

[21:40] decision and this happens in a fifth of

[21:42] a second so let's say you're about to

[21:44] shout back at me and your chimp looks

[21:46] into the computer and one of your

[21:48] beliefs I don't know what they are might

[21:50] be if you shout back up people it makes

[21:52] you look foolish yeah well I can tell

[21:54] you what my beliefs are right and I can

[21:55] tell you where they came from so my my

[21:57] parents shout where my my parents had a

[21:59] very loud shouting relationship I've

[22:01] never shouted in my life because of that

[22:03] because I learned firsthand so whilst

[22:05] you believe my belief is that

[22:07] um shouting achieves nothing

[22:09] um it's it's harmful for both parties

[22:11] you lose when you do it you're not heard

[22:13] when you do it

[22:15] um uh no stop there so I can do that's

[22:18] brilliant yeah so just to try and do the

[22:20] steady with this is what you're saying

[22:22] to me is I absolutely resonate with

[22:24] these beliefs they're not something I've

[22:26] given you which is a danger so if I said

[22:29] to you uh where we want to try and stop

[22:30] you shouting it never gets you anywhere

[22:33] you have to resonate with that that's

[22:35] why I can't do it you have to assist to

[22:37] me Steve that really resonates I've got

[22:39] to have evidence yes yeah and you have

[22:41] to believe this and you can't brainwash

[22:44] your Brit at seven to believing you've

[22:46] got to experience it and say this Rings

[22:48] true to me so once you've worked that

[22:51] out and you reinforced it which it

[22:52] sounds like you've done through your

[22:53] life oh God yeah then you you don't

[22:55] shout and it's not that you can't it's

[22:58] your computer's stopping you because the

[23:00] chimp has to listen to those beliefs so

[23:03] before it does anything it can't move

[23:06] so let's look at the opposite then if

[23:08] someone had you know if someone grew up

[23:10] in a household where they were shouting

[23:11] and they and they for whatever reason

[23:12] gained the evidence that it was an

[23:14] effective way to communicate or whatever

[23:16] um how does someone go about

[23:17] unprogramming that belief well it's not

[23:20] my job to do that and try to explain

[23:22] what I mean I I agree with you to me

[23:24] shouting is it's not very helpful you

[23:27] know at all however if somebody that's

[23:30] not my job to tell people I said to them

[23:32] why why would you hold that belief and I

[23:34] do have people who say it because people

[23:35] don't listen unless you shout some

[23:38] people you have to shout at them and so

[23:41] I draw breath because obviously I'm not

[23:43] agreeing but I'm not going to try and

[23:44] change the mind I'm going to challenge

[23:45] them and say can we challenge that to

[23:48] make sure that's what you believe but if

[23:50] they are insistent there are certain

[23:51] people in my life that shouting works

[23:53] for it's not for me to say that what I

[23:55] would do then is say right let's say it

[23:57] does work what that's in the short term

[24:00] so now we're in the devil in the detail

[24:01] our chimp system is working in the short

[24:04] term it does not look at long-term

[24:06] consequence

[24:07] so when your human now comes in your

[24:09] human system will look at rationality

[24:11] what's the long-term consequence of

[24:13] shouting now it may be with Personnel

[24:15] there's no long-term consequence and you

[24:18] think it doesn't make any difference I'm

[24:19] going to shout right they get it and

[24:21] we're okay with that and I'm not saying

[24:23] that's wrong I'm saying it's what they

[24:25] want to do however they might suddenly

[24:27] say with me actually you're right with

[24:29] person B when I shout there is

[24:31] repercussion on the person and I'm

[24:33] actually hurting them and also in their

[24:35] eyes it's not it's demeaning they see me

[24:38] as demeaning myself so it's not actually

[24:40] working in the long term it's not

[24:42] building a relationship that I want so

[24:45] it can be you tease the devil in the

[24:47] detail out you have a blanket by the

[24:49] sound of it belief that it doesn't

[24:51] matter who it is you don't shout yeah I

[24:53] would agree with that however I'm going

[24:56] to give you more devil in detail you

[24:58] have to be careful because if you add on

[25:00] to that that shouting

[25:02] is something that's a failure and then

[25:05] now I've I have a challenge on you

[25:07] because if you think about it if you

[25:09] then suddenly out of the blue did Shout

[25:12] and you're going to now start beating

[25:14] yourself up potentially and thinking

[25:16] yeah I would yeah so that's not that

[25:18] helpful so what a better belief I would

[25:21] suggest and see if you resonate is to

[25:22] say if you shout even though you don't

[25:26] agree with it because all your beliefs

[25:27] in my opinion are right uh if you shall

[25:30] forgive yourself and say you know that

[25:32] is a chimp system and maybe I need to

[25:34] reinforce my computer system because my

[25:37] chimp got out there and I'm not proud of

[25:39] that because actually I don't think that

[25:41] helped but I'd like people to understand

[25:43] that we can only manage the chimp system

[25:46] we do not control it and if it wants to

[25:48] get the better of us it can

[25:51] so all we can do is keep reinforcing the

[25:53] computer beliefs and strengthen them and

[25:55] you've done it beautifully by having a

[25:57] number of beliefs and then you've almost

[25:59] got this gang of autopilots yeah so if

[26:02] one gets shaken the others come in and

[26:04] that's how the brain will work so I like

[26:06] more than one belief but on the other

[26:08] hand if under circumstances your chimp

[26:11] gets out and you shout I want you to

[26:13] understand that your chimp got out it

[26:15] wasn't you that's not an excuse model

[26:18] you have to apologize if you think

[26:20] you've done wrong but I am saying it's a

[26:22] skill model which means you says to me

[26:25] now I do not want to shout so you didn't

[26:28] do it however you're responsible

[26:31] you can't just absolve yourself so I

[26:33] always liken it to having a dog I'm a

[26:35] great dog lover if one of my dogs comes

[26:37] in here and bites you I can't just go

[26:39] with my dog the answer is I have to

[26:41] manage this system I have to manage my

[26:43] dog

[26:44] and it's my responsibility 100.

[26:47] so I work with people to say be kind to

[26:50] yourself because this system means

[26:52] business and whatever your system is

[26:54] like it will break through there will be

[26:56] does you do not manage it

[26:58] Let's Pretend today has been a day where

[26:59] I didn't manage it the dog got off the

[27:01] lead and bit somebody whatever you know

[27:03] my I I lost my temp or whatever and I

[27:05] I'm reflecting on it thinking oh God you

[27:07] know and I was passed and I'm thinking

[27:09] God I wish I hadn't done that yeah what

[27:11] what can I actively do to

[27:15] prevent it happening again how do I

[27:17] reinforce that computer let me go back

[27:19] to the to the Dom because it's probably

[27:21] the best example uh what you wouldn't do

[27:23] I hope is kick the dog the dog's doing

[27:26] what the dog does you know the dogs the

[27:28] dog doesn't no so your job is to say

[27:31] first I'm going to apologize to the

[27:33] person

[27:33] because that should not have happened I

[27:36] know whatever I need to do or compensate

[27:37] I do whatever and apologize the second

[27:40] thing is naturally I assume you're going

[27:42] to say well I need to work on the dog

[27:44] I need to learn to train the dog and

[27:47] manage it so I know exactly how to stop

[27:49] that happening again but what I'm not

[27:51] gonna do is beat myself up

[27:53] for not being able to manage the dog why

[27:56] is that a bad idea we're dating yourself

[27:58] up yeah just like you know oh God I'm

[28:00] such an idiot I shouldn't have done that

[28:02] and it's sort of self-evident I mean

[28:04] again this is the devil in the detail if

[28:07] you said to me you know when I do that

[28:09] it it makes me feel better just to think

[28:12] right I've I've got to go up myself here

[28:14] and there's nothing wrong with that but

[28:15] what I'm going to do is draw a line

[28:17] after a certain time

[28:18] and then I'm going to say right you've

[28:20] had to go at yourself get over it yeah

[28:22] let's put that into action now

[28:24] right then I'm not disapproving I think

[28:27] it's self-evident that I'm not going to

[28:29] prove for somebody beating themselves

[28:30] and going back to the same thing over

[28:32] and over and over and then escalating

[28:34] that so it doesn't just become I can't

[28:36] manage the dog I'm an incompetent person

[28:38] you know and I get things wrong and

[28:41] everyone else seems to do this what's

[28:43] wrong with me that's the problem it's

[28:45] now going down a very dangerous route is

[28:47] that depositing certain evidence into

[28:49] the computer about you not being

[28:50] self-worthy which then is going to make

[28:53] your chimp recipe yeah well the chimp's

[28:55] gonna be irrational so when the chimp

[28:57] brain takes over because it puts our

[28:58] beliefs in as well as we do so it for

[29:01] example the dog one it will expand on

[29:03] that so there's something wrong with me

[29:04] so let's go to you you shouted and then

[29:07] you start saying you know I'm not a

[29:09] great person

[29:10] you know because my belief is great

[29:12] people shouldn't be doing that and it's

[29:13] okay giving an excuse and that's my

[29:15] chimp but it's not good enough

[29:16] and I can't allow it to happen again and

[29:18] I've done damage to this person

[29:19] irreparably and and now you can see how

[29:22] it's starting to escalate and you're

[29:23] putting all these beliefs inside your

[29:25] system so they're going to be

[29:27] unconscious beliefs that you're carrying

[29:28] with you so then you go and meet some

[29:31] friend and those beliefs might come

[29:33] straight in am I going to damage this

[29:35] person am I going to say something

[29:36] stupid again I'm gonna lose it again

[29:38] this is all really destructive and

[29:41] unhelpful you know sometimes I find it

[29:42] difficult to apologize

[29:44] specifically you know when you're like

[29:46] in the heat of a situation you might

[29:47] have had a an argument with your partner

[29:49] or whatever else about something tiny

[29:51] yeah in that moment sometimes I find it

[29:54] difficult to follow this I think I've

[29:55] gotten 10x better I'm thinking about the

[29:57] last sort of Confrontation I had with my

[29:59] with my girlfriend and in fact all I did

[30:01] was listen and then apologized after you

[30:02] should finish speaking because I

[30:03] genuinely was like I completely

[30:04] understand

[30:05] um but I think sometimes over the last

[30:07] 10 years I just think why didn't you

[30:08] just what is it that's preventing you

[30:10] from just saying especially when you

[30:12] know you've you've done something which

[30:14] is which isn't in line with who you want

[30:16] to be or how you want to behave why

[30:18] didn't I just apologize straight away

[30:19] what is it I've got to make a guess

[30:21] because I was like I said everyone's

[30:22] unique so if I work in the or say well

[30:24] again we're looking at what beliefs

[30:25] you're holding is do you think

[30:27] apologizing is something that's strong

[30:29] or weak

[30:32] good question

[30:34] um

[30:39] it's a good question and I think I'm

[30:41] going to say that my belief on that has

[30:43] changed okay so I think for the first

[30:48] over the last 10 years the first eight

[30:49] years I would have seen it as a weakness

[30:52] and then in the context of my

[30:54] relationship I see it as our biggest

[30:55] strength that I can both now listen in

[30:57] total silence make someone feel heard

[30:59] and understood and then apologize to

[31:00] them I think I see it as this like real

[31:02] superpower that I have that I've

[31:03] developed but in the in the eight years

[31:05] where I didn't I don't feel like I was

[31:07] apologizing enough I definitely saw it

[31:09] as a a weakness I saw it as admitting

[31:11] defeat and that's where I'm going so I'm

[31:13] saying to you uh it's a shame it took

[31:15] eight years yeah and that's why I like

[31:17] to do this work because you look back

[31:18] thinking if I'd learned this eight years

[31:20] ago it would have made a big difference

[31:22] but it that may not resonate some might

[31:24] say well I don't get I don't see it as

[31:26] weakness or strength so what difference

[31:28] so I would try a different attack

[31:29] consider that how important is it that

[31:31] you're happy or that your partner's

[31:33] Happy who would you put first

[31:38] in the situations where I didn't

[31:39] apologize I put myself first but what do

[31:42] you want

[31:43] I think in those situations I

[31:46] I don't even know I want it to be right

[31:48] I don't know I don't oh good good this

[31:50] but I'll leave just finished on that bit

[31:52] and I'll come back to the next one which

[31:53] is where I think you're coming from

[31:55] um I'll give you a surprise coming here

[31:57] so if somebody said

[32:00] my girlfriend's more important than me

[32:02] I love this girl I don't want to lose

[32:04] this girl and the last thing one is

[32:05] upsetting her to it's easy to make an

[32:07] apology yeah and it's easy to recognize

[32:09] I don't want to hurt this person and

[32:11] even if I'm in the right and she's in

[32:13] the wrong it doesn't matter I'm not it's

[32:14] not about winning which is what the

[32:16] chimp brain does it wants to win okay

[32:18] the human wants to resolve the situation

[32:20] so saying I'm really sorry that you're

[32:22] upset and I didn't mean to upset you

[32:23] doesn't mean you're admitting fault or

[32:25] whatever it just means you're trying to

[32:27] say that you're more important than this

[32:28] this is trivial

[32:30] that's so true and so that might

[32:33] resonate with people but you might get

[32:35] somebody which is where you're going

[32:36] where you say well of course I love it

[32:39] but hang on that's not right because if

[32:40] she's done something that's wrong and

[32:43] I've reacted to that she created that

[32:45] problem I know I'm wrong to react but

[32:47] hang on I want an apology

[32:49] right so that's common this is the

[32:51] surprise when you look at the

[32:53] Neuroscience behind this you think oh

[32:55] that must be my human being rational

[32:57] logical but actually isn't

[32:59] when we look at this why a girl called

[33:01] it the chimp system when we look at

[33:03] chimpanzees they operate with the chimp

[33:06] system they do have a human system but

[33:07] it's quite primitive which is where I

[33:09] got the analogy so I looked at the gray

[33:11] tips back in the 1990s and the

[33:13] publication came out in 2018 for the

[33:15] people academic to show the chimpanzee

[33:18] and human think very differently to the

[33:20] other greater Apes we're very different

[33:22] there's a different way of approaching

[33:24] things and interpreting so we do have

[33:26] the same system with chimps so that

[33:28] chimp system is the same and the way it

[33:31] works is unfairness so experiments with

[33:34] chimpanzees I'm sure you find them on

[33:35] YouTube where they do unfairness to

[33:38] chimpanzees and even

[33:40] um basic like capuchin monkeys

[33:42] demonstrate the same thing they must

[33:44] have fairness so never we demand

[33:47] fairness we're actually operating from

[33:49] the chimp system which is emotionally

[33:50] based the human can accept unfairness

[33:54] the human gets over and says get a life

[33:57] you know stop trying to deal with trivia

[33:59] and get fairness

[34:01] but our chimp system demands fairness

[34:04] I bought your book for uh one of my best

[34:07] friends recently

[34:08] when I say recently I mean in the last

[34:10] seven days and I said make sure you read

[34:11] that over the Christmas break and they

[34:13] said they came to me and said do you

[34:14] know the best part of the book for me

[34:16] she absolutely loved the book she said

[34:18] there was one sentence in it in the book

[34:19] which made her go which is where you say

[34:22] in the chin Paradox that life isn't fair

[34:24] yeah and you actually I wrote it down

[34:27] earlier on because because she said that

[34:29] to me you you've referenced it as an

[34:31] obvious thing you you say um

[34:33] have realistic expectations and remind

[34:36] yourself of the obvious life is not fair

[34:38] stress will happen things will go wrong

[34:39] for some reason that sentence resonated

[34:41] with her really profoundly because

[34:44] I think the friction she'd had in her

[34:45] life was expecting fairness yeah and

[34:49] that I'll pushed this I'm pushing the

[34:51] next book now oh this is I mean this

[34:52] one's a pass through the jungle is to me

[34:54] is is a step up no it is the reason I

[34:56] did that one was to try and this exactly

[34:58] what I'm saying I threw all that lot out

[35:00] as a chimp Paradox to say these are

[35:02] Concepts and she's giving what I've

[35:04] experienced doing talks over the last 20

[35:06] years now to the public and and various

[35:09] organizations is people come out of that

[35:11] and everybody picks something different

[35:13] it's what resonates with you so had I

[35:15] been working one-to-one with her I do

[35:17] this like fishing expedition to see

[35:19] what's resonating and then we expand on

[35:21] that so that's why I've gone into much

[35:24] more detail on this next book to say

[35:25] right if these bits resonate he's the

[35:27] science behind at this time when

[35:29] references you're gonna read it up but

[35:31] if you don't he's the practicalities so

[35:33] that's much more of an investigative how

[35:35] do you use this now and what she's

[35:38] really doing and I've tried to push this

[35:39] in the next book is to say what she's

[35:41] saying there is you know what my first

[35:43] step is acceptance

[35:45] and that is what winners do successful

[35:48] people go you know it doesn't mean

[35:50] acceptance roll over it means let me

[35:52] start from what's in front of me and

[35:54] stop fighting it and then work with it

[35:57] and then see what I can do with it

[35:59] whereas when you look at the chimp brain

[36:01] which generally is not as successful can

[36:04] be what it does is it says I don't want

[36:07] what's in front of me I want it

[36:09] different this is not what should happen

[36:11] so it spends its time getting aggravated

[36:14] rather than accepting and moving

[36:16] straight into plan of action so we often

[36:18] spend a lot of time agitating about

[36:21] what's happened or what's in front of us

[36:22] instead of saying it's happened one of

[36:25] my favorite podcast episodes that I

[36:26] recorded with a guy called Mo gauda he

[36:28] said to me

[36:29] um we're we're unhappy when our

[36:31] expectations of how life should be going

[36:33] are unmet hmm

[36:35] well that's why when I've gone in that's

[36:37] in the new book I've tried to say how do

[36:38] these systems approach life

[36:40] um what I've explained in that is the

[36:42] chimp system writes the script first

[36:44] before we leave the house so it will say

[36:47] things like I'm going to drive to work

[36:48] today and I'm going to get there in 30

[36:50] minutes there'll be no hold UPS to be so

[36:52] you can imagine the second there's

[36:53] something in the way it explodes because

[36:55] that's what it does it reacts whereas

[36:58] the human system doesn't what the human

[37:01] system goes out with zero expectation

[37:03] but as hopes I hope to get them 30

[37:05] minutes that's a world of difference and

[37:07] then when I find there's a traffic jam

[37:09] it doesn't react it responds so the two

[37:12] systems are very different and if we can

[37:14] learn how to go into human mode then we

[37:16] set off for work there's a hold up we

[37:18] don't have an emotional reaction we have

[37:20] a response which is accept

[37:23] there's the word accept what's in front

[37:25] of me but then follow through with a

[37:28] plan so in the book I always say first

[37:31] step is accept but immediately say right

[37:33] what's the plan because that's what

[37:34] humans do the human system wants

[37:36] Solutions it wants resolution it wants

[37:39] to move on the chimp system wants to

[37:41] express emulsion

[37:43] and then remove the problem not solve it

[37:45] there's a difference just remove it

[37:47] ignore it displace it pretend it hasn't

[37:51] happened that's not ideal because it

[37:54] tends to come back and bite us how much

[37:56] does what role does trauma play like

[37:58] early childhood trauma play in how we

[38:00] respond in situations and well now we're

[38:03] really getting deep

[38:05] um it depends on if again I'm being

[38:08] black and white if someone has a really

[38:09] bad trauma at childhood it can have

[38:11] repercussions throughout life because

[38:13] now the circuits in your brain are

[38:15] developing so if you have a really

[38:17] traumatic event and and not necessarily

[38:20] how what we would Define as traumatic

[38:23] it's what the child defines so I'm being

[38:25] a bit facetious here for example if it's

[38:28] got its favorite sweets and somebody

[38:29] steals them

[38:30] that could be a traumatic childhood

[38:32] event at that moment in time the impact

[38:34] was so significant that it has

[38:36] repercussions it's damaging the circuits

[38:39] it might for example perceive that as

[38:41] nothing in life is safe anything I have

[38:44] can be removed however most children get

[38:47] over it in seconds you know but it

[38:49] depends on the child and what stage

[38:51] they're at and what the circumstances

[38:52] are at that point somebody else might

[38:55] have child abuse for example which is

[38:58] much more likely to have repercussion

[38:59] throughout life so but we'd still get

[39:02] children who get child abuse and have no

[39:03] repercussions so it isn't a definite

[39:06] black and white it's probabilities

[39:08] is it the way that I've come to

[39:10] understand it is almost like we're

[39:11] wearing our own sunglasses which is

[39:14] a metaphor for like interpretation yeah

[39:17] so me and my brother we could be

[39:18] identical twins we go through the same

[39:19] experience but we're wearing different

[39:20] sunglasses so we interpret that

[39:22] experience differently we deposit

[39:23] evidence about what that experience

[39:24] means into our computer yeah

[39:27] um you're absolutely right and and it

[39:30] all hangs on for example somebody like

[39:33] your parent might suddenly say oh you're

[39:34] just an idiot you know but something

[39:36] might have happened just before that

[39:38] where you've gone to school and you've

[39:39] got one out of ten and you were bottom

[39:41] of the spelling test and you've come

[39:42] home and then your father you've done

[39:44] something at home and made a mistake and

[39:45] he says you're an idiot and the two

[39:48] together get emotionally Tangled

[39:50] and that then damages the circuits

[39:53] whereas normally if you come home you

[39:55] just got 9 out of 10 for the spelling

[39:57] come top of the class and he says you

[39:58] need you just bat it off and think well

[40:00] I got 9 to 10. so therefore the brain

[40:02] doesn't pick it up so again I'm trying

[40:04] to give example it's so complicated what

[40:07] I would say is it's hard to find these

[40:09] because they happen often very young in

[40:11] life and the emotional aspects and our

[40:13] memories emotionally and how we

[40:15] formulate things have about a three-year

[40:17] start on the human circuit which doesn't

[40:19] come in for three years approximately so

[40:21] that's why we have no memories of

[40:23] childhood we can't remember before the

[40:25] age of two because it's not working so

[40:28] our emotional memory begins in fatal

[40:30] life so before we're even born the

[40:32] emotional memory is starting to work out

[40:34] what trauma is and react to that trauma

[40:37] so we react to the mother's heartbeat

[40:40] for example

[40:41] um and again every fetus is different

[40:43] it's on Spectrum and then we follow that

[40:45] through and therefore the machine can be

[40:47] damaged early in life it can be damaged

[40:49] at any point and then we have something

[40:51] which I've then tried to determine um

[40:54] give a terminology of gram a goblin to

[40:56] so Gremlin is a belief or an experience

[40:58] you can process and actually get rid of

[41:00] whereas a goblin is something which is

[41:03] really damaged the circuits so you get

[41:05] people often who have very low

[41:06] self-esteem and that's going to continue

[41:08] throughout life now I'm certainly not

[41:10] saying we shouldn't try and get rid of

[41:12] that generally we can but it could be

[41:14] they always have moments of low

[41:16] self-esteem and what they need to do is

[41:18] accept they're always going to appear

[41:19] but I'm going to have a way of dealing

[41:21] with them and then going back onto a

[41:23] much more positive footing so sometimes

[41:26] we have beliefs within us that are just

[41:28] too hard to remove and and they may have

[41:30] come from traumatic experiences what I'm

[41:33] saying is I'm not rolling over and

[41:34] saying oh well this is damaged goods I'm

[41:36] saying let's learn if they do raise

[41:38] their heads let's learn how to put them

[41:40] in a box stop them from having impact in

[41:42] my life today and then work forward from

[41:45] that and again that's a skill to do and

[41:47] it just needs people to learn how to do

[41:50] that so we can we can take down

[41:51] gremlin's Gremlins but we can't goblins

[41:54] you have to accept the reason I brought

[41:56] that terminology is uh sadly I've seen

[41:59] over the years when I've been in an

[42:00] educational role as a doctor I've

[42:03] trained doctors and clinical

[42:04] psychologists nursing staff to how we

[42:07] deal with emotions and what I've seen

[42:09] distressed is when you get well-meaning

[42:11] therapist of any kind

[42:13] um and you they're trying to change

[42:15] something that can't be changed and you

[42:18] have to say you know the circuit's

[42:19] damaged and rather than try and change

[42:22] it let's learn to deal with it in a very

[42:24] constructive way but not put that

[42:26] pressure on the person to do something

[42:28] which we're probably never going to

[42:29] achieve so I'd always say try I'd always

[42:32] say let's try and process an event and

[42:34] let's try moving on so they remove it so

[42:36] great if you can get rid of low

[42:37] self-esteem but if it keeps raising its

[42:40] head let's so stop putting pressure on

[42:42] that person and work with it you still

[42:46] try and remove it so but but there's a

[42:48] point you said and look let's accept it

[42:50] but let's not let it take over let's

[42:52] learn how to put it in a box

[42:55] so it's a bit like a virus in a computer

[42:57] system exactly the same we accept its

[42:59] damage but we can box it in

[43:01] and if it does raise its head we mop it

[43:03] up again

[43:04] it's interesting because I from doing

[43:06] this podcast I used to believe that your

[43:07] traumas

[43:09] um you know those early experiences that

[43:10] Define you and the evidence it creates

[43:11] could be all of them could be eradicated

[43:14] with like some form of therapy or

[43:17] treatment

[43:18] The more I've done this podcast and sat

[43:20] with exceptional people who have you

[43:22] know have exceptional stories and some

[43:24] in many cases have exceptional traumas

[43:26] I've gone the other way and realized

[43:27] that even if they've had all the therapy

[43:30] they've gone and done Ayahuasca they've

[43:32] had whatever they've had it's still the

[43:34] some traumas some of the the deeper

[43:36] earlier traumas never seem to disappear

[43:39] and so my stance has changed and in

[43:41] recent podcasts I've been saying that

[43:42] there are instances where some things

[43:44] just it seems like people just can't

[43:46] overcome certain things is there a age

[43:51] um

[43:52] group where Goblins the traumas that we

[43:55] can't seem to overcome the evidence or

[43:57] whatever it is the the damage to the

[43:58] circuitry is there a does it tend to

[44:00] happen earlier yeah the younger we are

[44:03] when we're developing the brain the

[44:05] brain keeps developing up to the age of

[44:06] around 30. so it's young to me at my age

[44:10] as anyone under 30. okay so I'm 30 now

[44:12] right you're you're just I'm still

[44:14] you're just about done okay right so

[44:16] some people finish we know that mature

[44:18] is the final sort of like bits to the

[44:19] brim mature which is actually the

[44:21] rationality uh of the brain it matures

[44:24] around 25 to 30 but there are quite a

[44:27] lot of particularly more men who keep

[44:29] going to around 32 but by then you're

[44:32] out to the oven so wherever you've got

[44:34] you finished I agree with what you're

[44:36] saying is then you accept this is the

[44:38] where my system is so let me manage my

[44:40] system instead of trying to make my

[44:42] system do something it can't do so I

[44:44] hope I'm not coming across saying let's

[44:46] roll over I'm not saying that but the

[44:48] reason that I did it was it's they're

[44:50] also the therapist it's really hard for

[44:52] the doctor the nurse the psychologist

[44:55] it's really hard to see them struggling

[44:57] to try and change something or help

[44:58] someone and it's not working and that

[45:01] can damage them to think what's wrong

[45:03] with me I've seen it yeah oh right there

[45:05] you go and that's a therapist and I've

[45:06] seen her crying yeah because she

[45:08] couldn't change something right and

[45:10] that's why I brought this out and said

[45:12] to the therapist look stop you know

[45:14] let's you review what you're doing uh

[45:16] there are their own professionals but as

[45:18] someone who tries to teach a therapists

[45:21] and and people are working this field to

[45:23] say neuroscientifically there are

[45:25] damages to the Circuit so rather than

[45:27] say we're going to change it you've

[45:29] tried and you've probably done a great

[45:31] job because again most people are really

[45:33] good more therapists I've worked

[45:35] alongside have been excellent you know

[45:37] whatever the profession is is but don't

[45:39] beat yourself up if you're struggling

[45:40] with someone it may be you are hitting

[45:42] the nail on the head but exactly what

[45:44] you've just said we're not going to move

[45:46] this person so stop worrying about it

[45:48] and say let's try managing it first

[45:50] whatever's raising its head and then if

[45:53] we manage it then we might still try

[45:55] processing but now we're not defeated I

[45:58] have to say that that's that's great

[45:59] advice for therapists but it's also just

[46:00] great advice for someone in a family

[46:02] unit or in a relationship who has a

[46:05] partner or a loved one who is struggling

[46:07] with something where the circuitry might

[46:09] be irreparably damaged and they're

[46:12] destroying the relationship with that

[46:13] person because they're trying to change

[46:14] them exactly and the devil is in the

[46:16] detail again because there are other

[46:18] elements to this because in other factor

[46:20] is time we know that the brain will try

[46:22] and repair itself even if emotional

[46:24] scars it will try and do that so there

[46:27] can sometimes just be time so we're not

[46:29] liking growth reactions it you have to

[46:31] allow the Britain time and the Brain

[46:33] will process things in its own time and

[46:36] that's a piece of string generally in a

[46:38] serious loss or change of job or

[46:40] relationship gone or you've lost someone

[46:42] because they've passed on it usually we

[46:44] say around three months is intense then

[46:47] the 12 months is still bad but some

[46:49] people it can be 10 years and and there

[46:51] is no normal grief there's just normal

[46:54] grief for you

[46:55] and then if it gets stuck then again

[46:57] this way the clinicians will come in if

[46:59] you have pathological grief and this can

[47:01] be due to anything it's often a belief

[47:04] system again in the computer that's

[47:06] stopping you being able to process

[47:07] something

[47:09] and on that point of low self-esteem

[47:10] seems to be incredibly common yeah um

[47:13] confidence issues low self-esteem people

[47:15] believing like they are not enough I

[47:18] remember I sat with a therapist called

[47:20] Marissa pipia

[47:24] do you know what Steve have I don't

[47:27] think I've had a patient come to me that

[47:28] believed they were enough whether

[47:30] they're an Olympic star or they're a

[47:32] business person at the heart of them

[47:33] there was some kind of sort of deeper

[47:35] self-esteem issue how does one go about

[47:37] working with someone who's got you know

[47:40] clearly

[47:41] serious self-esteem issues confidence

[47:43] issues I'm gonna be uh

[47:46] almost paradoxical here and um

[47:48] controversially almost so you know if

[47:51] you look at the newer science of our

[47:53] brain and what it's trying to do uh the

[47:56] chimp system

[47:57] is naturally and healthily low

[48:00] self-esteemed that is the natural chimp

[48:03] system and we see this not just in our

[48:05] system and humans in chimpanzees so the

[48:08] fear that they're not up to it is

[48:10] inbuilt so if you have a fear that

[48:12] you're not as good as other people and

[48:13] you've got low self-esteem and then you

[48:15] start searching for evidence and you'll

[48:17] find it you'll find it because if you

[48:19] compare yourself to anyone who's

[48:20] excelling you've found it that is the

[48:23] chimp system trying to help you it

[48:25] sounds paradoxical what it's saying is

[48:28] don't put yourself in a vulnerable place

[48:30] where you beat your chest and say look

[48:31] I'm strong because you could get

[48:32] attacked it's better to keep your head

[48:34] down wear a 10 helmet and hope it goes

[48:37] away so that's how the chimp system

[48:38] works nice if someone comes in with low

[48:40] self-esteem the first step to me is

[48:42] accept this is absolutely healthy and

[48:46] natural but it's unhelpful

[48:48] so it's it's natural and healthy so

[48:50] celebrate you've got this amazingly

[48:52] healthy machine but what it's giving you

[48:54] is unhealthy

[48:55] so what you say is well why would it

[48:57] give me this and the answer is so that

[48:59] you don't get shot down you don't put

[49:01] your head up but that doesn't mean you

[49:03] can't start saying right well what can I

[49:05] do to gain self-esteem where it's

[49:07] reasonable self-esteem

[49:09] and then you start saying for example

[49:11] don't compare yourself to others it's

[49:14] not a healthy thing to do even wild

[49:16] chimpanzees do this they have a

[49:18] hierarchy in there they will compare and

[49:20] they'll jostle for position so we're

[49:22] built to do similar we jostled for

[49:24] position and sport is one where we see

[49:26] it blatant all right and we enjoy that

[49:28] provided we retain a sport and not start

[49:31] going self-esteem on it so we muddle the

[49:33] two up and again instead the typical

[49:35] everyday person social media yeah oh

[49:38] that's a disaster area because again

[49:40] what our chimps do is they want to be

[49:42] loved by everybody oh gosh and and the

[49:44] evidence is quite strong that if I am

[49:47] your friend and I like you okay and then

[49:50] you've got another friend who is not

[49:52] keen on you at times and you'll actually

[49:54] give more attention to the person who's

[49:56] not keen on using me

[49:58] and and that's what we do because our

[50:00] chimp is best to say I've got beloved by

[50:02] everyone so you just say well Steve

[50:03] likes I'm not going to bother with him

[50:05] but if it's Brian or whatever I'll I'll

[50:07] try and Curry favor and you try and

[50:08] please these people yeah and if you look

[50:10] it's really unhealthy to do that and

[50:12] it's not rational instead of saying let

[50:15] me create a world uh because I'm not

[50:17] going to work with my chimpses no I'm a

[50:19] human which says I value my friends who

[50:21] I want to invest in who do respect and

[50:23] love me they're the people I'm getting

[50:25] my time to and people who find me a bit

[50:27] you know maybe not so good or don't like

[50:28] me well that's up to them you know

[50:31] they're not in my world they're outside

[50:33] my world so if we look at that that's

[50:36] how the human system works it builds its

[50:38] own inner world and says this is how I'm

[50:40] going to survive the world but social

[50:42] media can be a disaster because then we

[50:45] look to say well who doesn't like me and

[50:47] what comments and we give them undue

[50:49] attention

[50:50] and that's a natural healthy thing for

[50:52] your chimp to do when it's trying to get

[50:54] everyone inside but it's a ridiculous

[50:56] thing to do and it's unhealthy is that

[50:58] because the chimp cares about status

[51:00] yeah because in a troop a natural and

[51:03] again not everything that chimpanzees in

[51:04] the Wilder refer to us but some things

[51:06] do overlap and we've found that a

[51:09] chimpanzee will always try and Curry

[51:10] favor with the powerful chimps because

[51:12] it doesn't want excluding excluded chimp

[51:14] is in trouble I mean it is going to die

[51:16] because it's unlikely another troop will

[51:18] take it

[51:19] and it's a likely a leopard will get it

[51:22] it's got to sleep sometime so but if you

[51:25] think of us as humans we tend to see

[51:27] this so he's particularly seeing

[51:29] teenagers they try and make everybody

[51:31] their Troop

[51:33] so anyone who's rejecting is fearful and

[51:35] to the chimp it's life and death so to

[51:38] our inner system which is chimp driven

[51:40] in the same way emotionally if we get

[51:42] rejected it potentially we could be

[51:44] kicked out and we know that if you look

[51:46] at the Neuroscience of the brain

[51:47] particularly in teenagers it's extremely

[51:50] sensitive to peer pressure it's built at

[51:53] that point to start forming peer groups

[51:55] so if somebody says I don't like your

[51:57] hairstyle I don't like your socks or

[51:58] even worse that are like you then that

[52:01] can be extremely damaging to the

[52:02] circuits that can create damage so we

[52:06] have to try and get to young children

[52:07] and say right we need to teach them you

[52:10] don't have to please everybody you

[52:11] please people on your terms with your

[52:13] morals and your values but you

[52:15] self-assess you decide whether you're

[52:17] good enough you decide what's important

[52:19] to you but if we don't teach them at

[52:21] young stage as a teenager we go outside

[52:23] that and then social media becomes

[52:25] extremely extremely dangerous you see

[52:28] that in schools I went undercover in a

[52:29] school and it was funny I was on the

[52:30] playground and I was looking out and I

[52:32] could I saw all of the boys had the same

[52:34] haircut this kind of weird mullet thing

[52:36] and all of them had the Under Armor

[52:39] backpack yeah it was I couldn't believe

[52:40] it I was like they are they they're

[52:42] identical this group of 20 lads who are

[52:45] all together perfect mullets and this

[52:47] this under armor backpack I think at the

[52:49] time when Anthony Joshua who was the the

[52:51] great boxer

[52:53] um was was an Under Armor Ambassador I

[52:55] think the brand was becoming really cool

[52:56] so

[52:57] um and that made me think about how we

[52:59] seek to conform so much at that age and

[53:01] how much I did I was wearing the skinny

[53:03] jeans if that was in the Fred Perry top

[53:04] then I was listening to rap music and

[53:06] then but I think that's that's really

[53:08] important to do isn't it because again

[53:10] if we got a child who under the age of

[53:12] 10 wandered away from parents and didn't

[53:14] really care that's very disconcerting

[53:17] will be able to build the community

[53:18] right the child should be dependent on

[53:20] the pair current right you know if

[53:22] you've got a teenagers outside the peer

[53:24] group we start getting concerned it

[53:25] doesn't mean there's something

[53:26] desperately wrong some people are more

[53:28] isolate than others it's on a spectrum

[53:30] but it is worrying so you like to see

[53:32] teenagers together but in order to be

[53:34] accepted you do have common ground

[53:37] so we we all our chimps always look for

[53:39] common ground or common experiences so

[53:42] if I wear orange socks and now I'm the

[53:43] gang leader then you wear orange socks

[53:45] and now we're all on our own socks and

[53:47] if I can decide they're out then

[53:48] everyone starts wearing them that is

[53:50] pretty healthy as a teenager because

[53:52] they're peer group bonding we hope they

[53:55] go through that stage into what we call

[53:56] individualization so around 17

[53:59] neuroscientific the brain does change

[54:01] almost to the day for most people so by

[54:04] 1890 and we're starting to individualize

[54:06] and that means we decide whether I want

[54:09] to really wear orange socks we get

[54:11] individual identities however again a

[54:15] lot of research obviously it's

[54:16] contradictory at times but most of it

[54:17] shows that around that age we have the

[54:20] leaders come out which is about one in

[54:21] four people genetically are going to

[54:24] individualize and decide I'm just going

[54:26] to set my own agendas and I like what

[54:28] music I like do what I like but about

[54:30] three and four are semi-dependent

[54:32] throughout their lives so they'll always

[54:34] look to some strong figure to bond with

[54:37] them and that tends to be a bit insecure

[54:40] the people that have this low

[54:42] self-esteem we talked about a second ago

[54:43] are they more likely to become what we

[54:45] call people Pleasers

[54:47] yes because again they're trying to

[54:48] Curry further so that's one way of

[54:50] coping with low self-esteem so ever

[54:52] again everyone's different so some

[54:55] people might close themselves down and

[54:57] they'll go into their own little world

[54:58] and just not engage and they don't go

[55:00] and join a new club or form a new hobby

[55:03] or make new friends because they just

[55:04] haven't got that confidence so they deal

[55:06] the coping strategy is to just close

[55:08] down and my my answer is if as long as

[55:11] you're happy with that I'm not going to

[55:13] dispute it but if you're not and you

[55:15] want to get out let's get you out there

[55:17] but everyone has different coping

[55:19] strategies the next one you've mentioned

[55:21] commonly is to try and please people

[55:23] never say no always say yes

[55:26] um make sure it doesn't matter how much

[55:28] it puts you out never speak up don't be

[55:30] assertive

[55:31] is critical not to be assertive so this

[55:33] is their chimp system saying if you do

[55:35] all this people will like you more sadly

[55:38] the reality is they don't people like

[55:40] assertive confident people they don't

[55:42] like people who suck up to them tends to

[55:45] be then there's a real danger now I'm

[55:47] going into forensics somebody's in that

[55:49] position where they're desperate time to

[55:50] plays is really vulnerable to abuse

[55:53] so they're going to get someone who

[55:55] finds them and then they'll use this

[55:57] against them and then it really is

[55:59] dangerous so so when you look at that my

[56:02] gut feel is as well as logic would be to

[56:06] get them out of that and say look be

[56:08] very careful if you're gonna lean on

[56:10] someone don't lean on them by trying to

[56:12] please them lean on them as a friend

[56:14] who's there to look after you that's

[56:16] building you up not controlling you is

[56:20] that what you tend to find in abusive

[56:21] relationships yeah there's usually very

[56:24] little self-esteem I mean years ago uh

[56:27] when I did a lot of work in general

[56:28] adult psychiatry in hospital medicine I

[56:30] would see quite a lot not just women but

[56:33] mainly women who would be have such low

[56:35] self-esteem that they would subject

[56:37] themselves to someone who was really

[56:38] abusing them and there was a book out at

[56:41] the time which I used to recommend I

[56:43] just think Saxon written by a woman and

[56:46] it was to entitle women who loved too

[56:47] much I read through this book and I

[56:49] thought she'd written it in my opinion

[56:51] it was excellent so I used to hand them

[56:52] that and say I think this is better than

[56:54] me as a man trying to help you to get

[56:56] self-esteem I can do this but I think if

[56:59] you understand where she's coming from

[57:00] and she said exactly what you're saying

[57:02] she's saying you know the reason you're

[57:04] clinging to these guys is because you

[57:06] have so such low self-esteem you're

[57:08] actually saying to them give me my

[57:10] self-esteem and they're abusing you

[57:12] so you've got to build your self-esteem

[57:16] that's so you're right but there are

[57:18] lots of ways people do some of them are

[57:20] not so blatant so some people don't

[57:22] recognize they've got low self-esteem

[57:24] until you point out for example they

[57:26] just don't know how to be assertive and

[57:28] if you think about it if you've got

[57:30] reasonable self-esteem then you would

[57:32] say have the right to speak my mind and

[57:34] also to say to people please don't do

[57:36] that it offends mirror to upsets me and

[57:38] this is what I'd like you to do which is

[57:40] what assertiveness is

[57:41] so again sometimes it's subtle that you

[57:44] think oh wow low self-esteem presents

[57:47] with different faces and again that's my

[57:48] job to to help people to tease out and

[57:51] think ah this is low self-esteem or it

[57:53] isn't I want to figure out how to build

[57:55] self-esteem but can self low self-esteem

[57:58] also manifest as the

[58:00] very apparently successful guy or girl

[58:04] who has got a mansion and a Lamborghini

[58:07] and his head to toe in designer Brands

[58:09] because I know those people as well I

[58:11] think at one point I was one of those

[58:12] people if I'm being full disclosure but

[58:14] um is that a form of low self-esteem

[58:16] again it's what I put under was a public

[58:18] coping strategy and what you're trying

[58:20] to say is look if I keep elevating

[58:22] myself then I'll suddenly feel good

[58:24] because people see me as being this

[58:26] wealthy person or this successful person

[58:28] and it's interesting even within sport

[58:29] one of the questions asked is why are

[58:31] you doing this because it's great to do

[58:33] sport I'm not a great sport

[58:35] um but why are you doing it and and

[58:36] often the answers which do lead to

[58:39] success but can have consequence uh I

[58:41] need to prove to myself that I can do

[58:43] something and that's probably I would

[58:45] have said not an ideal reason to do it

[58:47] I'm not saying it doesn't work but I

[58:49] think the long-term consequence is you

[58:51] won't stop at the end of spot you'll

[58:52] keep doing that

[58:54] that's my the risk or someone who says I

[58:57] need to demonstrate to other people how

[58:58] good I am again these can be very

[59:01] successful beliefs while you're in sport

[59:03] but coming out of it it can lead to

[59:05] Danger

[59:06] so again it's not for me to say change

[59:08] it's me to question it and say is there

[59:11] an alternative way to succeeding Sport

[59:13] and I've met plenty of people who say

[59:15] it's only sport but I love it commit to

[59:18] process and get on with it and succeed

[59:21] fantastic and really great players

[59:23] so again it's not for me to say it's for

[59:26] me to try and tease it out to people I

[59:29] think sometimes I think even with myself

[59:30] I've wondered and worried that if the

[59:33] the insecurities I had from being a

[59:36] child you know with the only black

[59:38] family in the neighborhood we were the

[59:39] poor family with the smashed up house

[59:41] um though that insecurity I think has

[59:43] been a driving force for me I think it

[59:45] was much the reason that I cared so much

[59:46] about getting money and status and

[59:48] material material success and then I

[59:51] think there was a point I think I read

[59:52] about this in my book where I pondered

[59:54] that if I lose that do I lose my

[59:55] ambition in my drive

[59:57] well that's a good point it's

[59:58] interesting that um

[01:00:00] I'm sorry you experienced that oh no

[01:00:02] because I don't sound great and again it

[01:00:05] was a driving force that eventually LED

[01:00:07] you to being successful in some sense

[01:00:09] and so it's not all together negative

[01:00:11] but there's a really key Point here it's

[01:00:13] like when people have a driving force in

[01:00:15] sport

[01:00:16] I think it's great to have a driving

[01:00:18] force where it is provided you can stop

[01:00:21] in your tracks and look at perspective

[01:00:23] and say you know what without this I'm

[01:00:25] still a decent person and have good

[01:00:27] self-esteem within yourself so I think

[01:00:30] I'm not against these driving force as

[01:00:32] long as you can contain them and they

[01:00:34] don't continue yeah there's a difference

[01:00:36] so I think if you said right I want to

[01:00:39] try and prove that I commit this because

[01:00:40] I'm from a poor family I'm black I'm the

[01:00:42] only one in the neighborhood I'm going

[01:00:43] to show you we can succeed here as

[01:00:45] people in this position and that's true

[01:00:47] of a lot of minor minority groups

[01:00:50] I don't think it's ideal

[01:00:52] I'd much rather if I'd met you then say

[01:00:55] can you see yourself as being you yeah

[01:00:57] and who cares what the rest of the world

[01:00:58] thinks let's make you and your values

[01:01:00] and that could have driven you but if

[01:01:02] you say well what if I suddenly see

[01:01:04] myself as being me and I don't see this

[01:01:06] as me being poor and I need to prove

[01:01:08] myself will not not lose my Force the

[01:01:10] answer is not really your force is

[01:01:12] driven by emotion at that point so

[01:01:14] that's your trip driving you all right

[01:01:16] which I'm not saying is right or wrong

[01:01:17] I'm just saying that's what it's doing

[01:01:19] but is there a way the human can drive

[01:01:21] you and the answer is yes by your values

[01:01:23] and saying I'd like to do things that I

[01:01:25] think are really valuable to me and it

[01:01:27] could be I want to earn money and I want

[01:01:28] to help other people and I want a good

[01:01:30] life there's nothing wrong with that I

[01:01:32] don't think there's anything wrong but

[01:01:34] that's for you to decide but then you

[01:01:35] can have a driving force and you won't

[01:01:37] lose it in sport I deal with people who

[01:01:41] I try and get them to put sport in

[01:01:43] perspective so my phrase is always is

[01:01:45] tiddlywinks you know life is Tiddly

[01:01:47] wings but let's do it with a passion

[01:01:50] but at any point if we're not doing well

[01:01:52] and we make a a bad move let's be able

[01:01:55] to laugh and say it's totally Winks are

[01:01:57] you doing that to detach it from their

[01:01:58] self-esteem it doesn't yeah it doesn't

[01:02:00] have to be with self-esteem that's

[01:02:01] completely different to me you've chosen

[01:02:03] to put your self-esteem on what you can

[01:02:05] achieve which is what the chimp does or

[01:02:07] who it is or how people perceive it or

[01:02:09] what it's got what values valuables it's

[01:02:12] got you know money that's and we're

[01:02:15] dealing with it but it's not a very

[01:02:16] sound one because what happens is you

[01:02:18] still keep going

[01:02:19] Because deep down what I've experienced

[01:02:21] I don't know whether you'd resonate if I

[01:02:23] met you at Heart to Heart behind locked

[01:02:25] doors at that point you say I'm not

[01:02:27] happy because I'm aware of what I'm

[01:02:29] doing and I know it's superficial

[01:02:32] and that's what I've experienced I've

[01:02:35] worked with with the extremes of each

[01:02:37] Spectrum with people who are struggling

[01:02:38] with finances and people who are

[01:02:40] extraordinarily wealthy but the bottom

[01:02:42] line is at the end of the day when

[01:02:43] you're back in your own house in your

[01:02:45] own room you're living with yourself

[01:02:48] and that's why I say do you want to look

[01:02:50] at that because if you can live with

[01:02:51] yourself comfortably and be at peace of

[01:02:54] mind then nothing's going to get to you

[01:02:57] the world will be a much better place

[01:02:59] so when I think back to that time when I

[01:03:01] feel like I was most driven by that

[01:03:03] Pursuit which was

[01:03:04] full

[01:03:05] um before I had attained the things that

[01:03:07] I was aiming to attain because I think

[01:03:09] sometimes when you attain those things

[01:03:10] they they act as pretty profound

[01:03:11] evidence that you were you were aiming

[01:03:13] for the wrong thing at some time but if

[01:03:14] I look through the thing I think would

[01:03:16] would make me unhappy was that all the

[01:03:19] things I sacrificed because of my

[01:03:22] Pursuit for like materials for money or

[01:03:25] material success so not having

[01:03:27] relationships or friendships or social

[01:03:29] connection

[01:03:30] sacrificing all of those things created

[01:03:32] like an emptiness yeah you know just

[01:03:34] working seven days a week in an office

[01:03:36] not and then thinking that you know this

[01:03:39] was the a noble cause because it would

[01:03:41] make me Rich

[01:03:42] it was actually the things that I well I

[01:03:43] think it was the things that I

[01:03:44] sacrificed that led me to feeling a

[01:03:46] little bit empty inside I wouldn't

[01:03:47] necessarily say I was unhappy but I was

[01:03:49] definitely it was unsustainable for sure

[01:03:52] I was definitely heading to a bad place

[01:03:54] like I could see that coming I'd seen a

[01:03:57] couple of my friends actually who were

[01:03:58] doing the same thing at the time end up

[01:04:00] in bad places on medication having panic

[01:04:02] attacks

[01:04:03] um drinking a lot of alcohol too much

[01:04:04] alcohol

[01:04:05] so I could see myself heading to a bad

[01:04:06] place but um but I think again I don't

[01:04:09] think we should see this black and white

[01:04:10] things should agree again I'm not it

[01:04:13] makes clear I'm not against people

[01:04:15] earning money and I've been great

[01:04:16] possessions and holidays and because

[01:04:18] that will obviously give them some

[01:04:19] pleasure and happiness I'm not because

[01:04:21] I'm just saying alongside that let's

[01:04:23] look at the other aspects which you're

[01:04:25] neglecting yeah so do both

[01:04:28] just get a perspective that that's going

[01:04:30] to help me on my chimp to feel happy but

[01:04:32] actually what's going to make me feel

[01:04:33] good now some people will say I'm happy

[01:04:36] I've got my money and I've got my car

[01:04:37] and it's not for me to say oh wow what

[01:04:40] about your values that's I'm not who am

[01:04:42] I to do that what I'm saying is my

[01:04:44] experience has been with a lot of people

[01:04:45] I work with you're resonating with what

[01:04:48] I find that behind locked dolls they're

[01:04:50] saying there's an emptiness there's

[01:04:51] something like saying I'm sacrificing

[01:04:53] things that mean a lot to me and I want

[01:04:55] these great friends and I want to have a

[01:04:57] meaning in my life I want purpose I want

[01:04:59] my values defining I want to be able to

[01:05:01] live with my values and so I said to

[01:05:04] people you just get a balance just tell

[01:05:06] me what do you need what do you want and

[01:05:08] let's get both of these things in

[01:05:10] position you come to learn like I think

[01:05:12] I thought that I didn't need those

[01:05:13] things because I thought I was some

[01:05:15] anomaly yeah I didn't think I needed the

[01:05:18] like fundamentals of human needs so I

[01:05:20] didn't think I needed connection I

[01:05:21] thought all of these things but you

[01:05:22] could take it or leave it but the longer

[01:05:24] you run that experiment the this sooner

[01:05:27] you'll find out that you two are human

[01:05:28] but again if you try and give some

[01:05:31] context to this when you're sort of 19

[01:05:33] to 25 roughly you're generally searching

[01:05:36] for a partner and your brain is telling

[01:05:39] you look at your best yeah you know

[01:05:41] otherwise you're not going to get

[01:05:42] anybody so therefore you're wanting this

[01:05:44] admiration you're wanting this status

[01:05:46] and and that's because that's nature

[01:05:48] driving you say if you're the best

[01:05:50] that's who they'll pick they're not

[01:05:51] going to pick someone who's not the best

[01:05:52] right so we're driven and then we do

[01:05:55] this comparison with other people uh

[01:05:58] which can drive us on or it can cause

[01:06:00] incredible depressive feelings and then

[01:06:02] low self-esteem so again I think if we

[01:06:05] can help people to understand that's

[01:06:06] normal and healthy but it's unhealthy if

[01:06:09] you do an address the rest so in saying

[01:06:11] that we're not all going to look like

[01:06:13] Tarzan on this world you know that's

[01:06:16] what you're aiming to do then you're

[01:06:17] going to fail because you'll obviously a

[01:06:18] bigger thousand or a better Miss World

[01:06:20] it doesn't matter and I think that can

[01:06:22] be a faulty stance in life but it at

[01:06:25] that age group you're meant to be doing

[01:06:26] that whereas once you start going beyond

[01:06:29] that either you've got a partner or you

[01:06:31] start to realize it's a bit superficial

[01:06:33] and so what you're doing is maturing

[01:06:36] into the 30s not everyone most people

[01:06:39] mature to thinking this is empty this is

[01:06:42] not a good place to be and it's not

[01:06:45] going to last and also you remember your

[01:06:47] aging

[01:06:49] so you know you look in the mirror and

[01:06:50] suddenly think wow that wasn't what I

[01:06:52] used to see and then if you're not wise

[01:06:55] you start trying to be something you're

[01:06:57] not so you're trying to get yourself 10

[01:06:59] years younger and that can become an

[01:07:00] embarrassment so again but it's up to

[01:07:03] people what they want to do but I'm

[01:07:04] saying the natural development of the

[01:07:06] brain in the 30s is to mature you as

[01:07:09] I've said it finishes now it really

[01:07:10] matures and then in your 40s you do see

[01:07:13] life differently so as you develop your

[01:07:16] brain matures and it will see things

[01:07:18] differently I always joke with people

[01:07:21] and say you know when you're getting

[01:07:22] middle-aged because you buy a bird table

[01:07:24] and and you can't believe many people

[01:07:27] resonate or you've got the garden center

[01:07:28] on a Sunday but that doesn't mean you

[01:07:30] can't do that at 19 and it doesn't mean

[01:07:32] you have to do it at 40. I'm just saying

[01:07:34] we recognize that what it's symbolizing

[01:07:37] is I'm starting to look at more

[01:07:39] Aesthetics in my life now and not

[01:07:41] chasing after a mega career I'm not

[01:07:44] chasing after wealth I'm saying look

[01:07:46] there's a point where you've got enough

[01:07:47] and there are other things is quality of

[01:07:50] life now and for a lot of people they

[01:07:52] start tuning into things like nature so

[01:07:54] it's not that surprising they've got the

[01:07:56] garden center you know I'm not saying

[01:07:58] that negatively at all right I've got my

[01:08:01] bird tail yeah we just put my

[01:08:03] girlfriend's dad a bird there you go box

[01:08:05] with a camera in it there you go but the

[01:08:07] point is at this age more people are

[01:08:10] more likely to appreciate that than when

[01:08:12] you're 18. of course yeah but we're not

[01:08:14] saying that you know I'm not trying to

[01:08:16] put people in boxes I'm trying to say

[01:08:17] let's look at how the brain develops but

[01:08:19] learn what works for you but it's good

[01:08:21] to know that your brain is maturing all

[01:08:22] the time and you will move you will move

[01:08:24] ground whether you like not your brain

[01:08:26] will mature as well as your physical

[01:08:27] body I've always I've always wondered

[01:08:30] why at 23 24 years old I would go to

[01:08:33] nightclubs and spend a ridiculous amount

[01:08:35] of money on champagne bottles with

[01:08:37] sparklers on them to try and impress

[01:08:39] people whereas now in my 30 year old

[01:08:41] mind I look at that behavior and go I

[01:08:43] wouldn't even go like I don't even want

[01:08:44] to go to nightclubs at all period

[01:08:45] anymore but 23 24 year old Steve which

[01:08:48] isn't that long ago it's only like six

[01:08:49] years ago that's all I look forward to

[01:08:51] that's all I wanted to do and it's funny

[01:08:53] in just six years how my interest can

[01:08:55] seem to be so profoundly different and

[01:08:58] you know when I was 23 24 25 I always

[01:09:00] thought about like older people like 30

[01:09:03] 40 50 year olds get why aren't they

[01:09:04] coming to nightclubs like why aren't

[01:09:06] they here that they don't know how to

[01:09:07] have any fun that'll never happen to me

[01:09:09] I will be in this club when I'm 45. and

[01:09:13] I guess looking at the brain kind of

[01:09:14] explains why that yeah and and there are

[01:09:17] exceptions don't forget there are of

[01:09:18] course yeah but it's even like with

[01:09:20] music you know when you're taking a

[01:09:23] generally it's a big feature in most

[01:09:25] people's lives and in the 20s it is but

[01:09:26] it starts to diminish yeah so you don't

[01:09:29] find people in the 40s and 50s you can

[01:09:32] but most people have moved on uh and

[01:09:35] they say you think you're going to be

[01:09:36] into music forever and then you suddenly

[01:09:39] realize actually it's loud

[01:09:41] and that's when you think oh my goodness

[01:09:44] what's happening here

[01:09:46] um but no I mean this is a natural

[01:09:47] progression you know but then again I

[01:09:50] love it if you get somebody who's in

[01:09:52] their 60s 70s and still into pop music

[01:09:54] that's great yeah you know I'm not

[01:09:57] saying that's something wrong but I'm

[01:09:58] saying there is a general Trend then

[01:10:00] you're experiencing this so I think

[01:10:02] pulling it back to where my world is

[01:10:04] that's why I say the brain's doing the

[01:10:06] same thing

[01:10:07] so we go through these stages and we

[01:10:09] mentioned about self-esteem which is

[01:10:11] really important in the peer group

[01:10:12] really important Unfortunately they get

[01:10:14] self-esteem by comparison generally and

[01:10:17] by admiration and possessions and then

[01:10:20] as you get into your 20s we start to

[01:10:21] change

[01:10:22] and hopefully if people mature and start

[01:10:25] tuning into their mind by the 30s and

[01:10:27] 40s we're matured enough to start

[01:10:29] looking at our values and what's

[01:10:31] important to us in our life such as

[01:10:33] friendships

[01:10:34] so if I'm 30 odd you know and I've got

[01:10:37] low self-esteem I'm you know I'm 33 got

[01:10:40] low self-esteem and I came to you where

[01:10:43] would you begin with trying to help and

[01:10:45] that low self-esteem was manifesting in

[01:10:46] abusive relationships bad work

[01:10:48] relationships

[01:10:49] very negative sort of feelings about

[01:10:52] myself and maybe even some impulsive

[01:10:54] behaviors you know I'm I'm eating too

[01:10:56] much around I don't know whatever where

[01:10:59] would you start with me

[01:11:00] okay the first I mean just so people say

[01:11:04] oh wow that's a strange start but I'm a

[01:11:06] doctor so the first is make sure you're

[01:11:07] actually okay I'm okay because if

[01:11:09] someone were uh presenting with this it

[01:11:11] could be in depression if and that can

[01:11:13] present in many ways typically it's low

[01:11:16] mood and um loss of pleasure and

[01:11:18] everything and loss of energy but that

[01:11:20] doesn't have to be so I mustn't miss

[01:11:22] that so I would make sure your mind is

[01:11:24] not ill but I need treatment now we

[01:11:26] assume that this is long-standing and

[01:11:28] what you've done is you what you

[01:11:29] describing is a lot of maladaptive

[01:11:31] coping strategies so I eat too much uh

[01:11:35] which is probably Comfort eating or it's

[01:11:36] just habitual stuff that you're just not

[01:11:38] you know or it could be got so low

[01:11:40] self-esteem I've seen this you're almost

[01:11:42] punishing yourself you know I don't

[01:11:44] deserve to to eat well and I don't

[01:11:46] deserve to eat the right things so I

[01:11:48] deserve to be overweight or I deserve to

[01:11:49] look like this so that could be the

[01:11:52] bottom it so I have to start my starting

[01:11:53] point is an exploration

[01:11:55] but the key to this would be to move all

[01:11:57] that to one side

[01:11:59] if you're in a reasonable place where

[01:12:01] you can actually communicate if not I'll

[01:12:02] let you express it all it's important

[01:12:04] you get it off your chest if you've got

[01:12:06] it you say I don't need to do that what

[01:12:08] I do is what I've seen the book here in

[01:12:10] a passage jungle I explained the

[01:12:12] starting point is get a blank piece of

[01:12:14] paper and write down who you want to be

[01:12:17] what behaviors do you want to have let's

[01:12:19] define what you want not what you don't

[01:12:20] want not what you're experiencing don't

[01:12:22] start with a treacle I call that the

[01:12:24] treacle start with a blank piece of

[01:12:27] paper

[01:12:28] and then write down the person you want

[01:12:30] to be

[01:12:31] do you want to be I want to be really

[01:12:33] confident I want to have a a girlfriend

[01:12:35] or a boyfriend I want to get married I

[01:12:36] want to have kids I want to work out

[01:12:38] every day I want to eat really good food

[01:12:40] right so what you're describing now is

[01:12:42] the human system the great news is when

[01:12:44] I ask you the characteristics you've got

[01:12:46] so I want to be calm I want to be happy

[01:12:49] I want to be confident that is you

[01:12:53] how do you know it's me right because if

[01:12:56] we were we can't surgically remove

[01:12:58] interference neuroscientific glitch we

[01:13:00] can see unfunctional Marie scanners if

[01:13:02] we remove the chimp and computer system

[01:13:03] then you're completing control of

[01:13:05] yourself so you would choose to be calm

[01:13:08] you would choose to be confident so

[01:13:11] therefore that's you the human system

[01:13:12] can choose

[01:13:14] what happens is when you choose to

[01:13:15] become the chimp system interferes or

[01:13:18] the computer interferes and throws shows

[01:13:21] to the world someone who's not calm so

[01:13:23] it's very important to recognize who you

[01:13:25] are before we start so now we've got a

[01:13:27] guy you're not going to write no one

[01:13:29] ever acts anxious no no one they say no

[01:13:32] what I want to be is calm collected a

[01:13:35] good friend of Integrity that is you if

[01:13:38] if we didn't have interference in the

[01:13:40] machine so it's very crucial this is the

[01:13:43] biggest point in the book the biggest

[01:13:45] point is to Define yourself because now

[01:13:47] you've got self-esteem can rise just on

[01:13:49] that alone once you've grasped like you

[01:13:51] say wow when I'm presenting the world is

[01:13:54] interference it's not me if I didn't

[01:13:57] have this machine I would not have

[01:13:59] anxiety because that's a system that you

[01:14:01] say in the human system can't do anxiety

[01:14:04] it's not built to do that it's built to

[01:14:07] be rational and calm but what it wants

[01:14:09] to do and how I want to present is a

[01:14:11] choice the chimp has no choice the

[01:14:13] computer has no choice the computer is

[01:14:16] programmed but these are interfering and

[01:14:19] presenting to the world someone who is

[01:14:21] not you

[01:14:22] so it's very important to grasp that

[01:14:24] concept that's my starting point now

[01:14:26] we've grasped that we build on that

[01:14:28] so now we I know who you are I'll say

[01:14:31] this sometimes when you're with a friend

[01:14:33] and you've been chatting a while and

[01:14:34] maybe it's got late in the evening and

[01:14:36] you've got a lot off your chest and

[01:14:38] you've discussed you calm down

[01:14:40] and sometimes the real you presents

[01:14:43] and sudden you feel at peace people

[01:14:45] often say I don't know it's just now

[01:14:47] felt relaxed and thought I've got

[01:14:49] perspective

[01:14:50] I'll get gather the world to the way it

[01:14:52] is I accept things are and I've calmed

[01:14:54] down and then suddenly you see the real

[01:14:56] person

[01:14:57] and they've got morals and values and

[01:15:00] not every human has sometimes The Chimps

[01:15:02] the good guy some you know sometimes the

[01:15:05] human's not nice so I do get people who

[01:15:07] do not write for example who you are

[01:15:09] they don't write compassion the don't

[01:15:11] write Integrity they don't care

[01:15:14] and if I challenge you you didn't put

[01:15:15] compassion they say Adam not bother

[01:15:17] about that

[01:15:18] so I have to work out who you are

[01:15:21] okay so not everyone is going to write

[01:15:23] the same things that's why I know it's

[01:15:24] you we're not just a generic list

[01:15:26] because someone could just be virtually

[01:15:28] signaling because you're asking me to do

[01:15:29] it or because I want to be these people

[01:15:31] but really I'm a I'm a burglar I'm a bad

[01:15:33] guy you know I want to hurt people yeah

[01:15:35] I'll tease that out how that's my job

[01:15:38] because again then you look at evidence

[01:15:40] base and you look at remorse you look at

[01:15:42] whether somebody compensates for

[01:15:43] mistakes there's a lot of things I want

[01:15:45] to see the history here okay and then

[01:15:48] I'll challenge that and challenge it so

[01:15:49] that's a series of talks so often we

[01:15:52] have a long time when we determine

[01:15:53] someone to to explore this so we don't

[01:15:55] get fooled is this you talk referencing

[01:15:58] much of your psychiatric work here

[01:15:59] within psych hospitals yeah

[01:16:01] so somebody is psychopathic we generally

[01:16:05] everyone's different version of what it

[01:16:06] is for me a newer scientific we know

[01:16:08] there's certain tracks in the brain that

[01:16:10] are not really fully developed or don't

[01:16:11] function uh and this produces someone

[01:16:14] without empathy without remorse without

[01:16:15] any conscience uh these are classic and

[01:16:19] so I don't know that I'm not a mind

[01:16:21] reader I can't tell until people talk

[01:16:23] you know so yes they could deceive me

[01:16:25] yeah I I have to just go on what they

[01:16:27] tell me but I can listen carefully to

[01:16:29] the words they use I can listen to what

[01:16:30] they're saying and look at their past

[01:16:32] life events and it starts to unravel

[01:16:34] So eventually you think okay I know what

[01:16:36] I'm dealing with now so but to be honest

[01:16:39] people don't do that with me uh what you

[01:16:41] tend is because I I would hopefully set

[01:16:43] to scene where I don't care what you're

[01:16:45] right I don't care what you want to do

[01:16:47] with your life it's not for me I'm not a

[01:16:48] judge I'm here as a doctor to explore

[01:16:51] this with you and get insights for

[01:16:53] yourself

[01:16:54] so the most people are not Psychopathic

[01:16:56] we're decent people who've just got lost

[01:16:59] in the the word the new science of our

[01:17:00] mind just tumbled us so what I stop my

[01:17:03] starting point when you give me all this

[01:17:04] was to say let's write out the real you

[01:17:06] and let's start building ourselves on

[01:17:08] that and recognizing what is not us and

[01:17:10] let's start unpicking it so let's just

[01:17:13] start saying right why would you have

[01:17:14] and we went early about low self-esteem

[01:17:16] let's look at why you have that first

[01:17:18] it's natural and healthy that can help

[01:17:20] people sometimes just saying that to go

[01:17:22] that's amazing I feel better for knowing

[01:17:25] it's natural and healthy maybe rubbish

[01:17:27] and unhelpful but at least I know it's

[01:17:29] healthy and there's not something wrong

[01:17:31] with me

[01:17:32] because the second you start saying oh

[01:17:35] I'm trying to please people and I can't

[01:17:37] say no and you see that as being a

[01:17:39] weakness or a fault we're in trouble

[01:17:41] again because you're muddling yourself

[01:17:42] up with a machine

[01:17:44] so that's my starting point who are you

[01:17:47] what's the machine doing all of this

[01:17:49] anything the chimp does anything it does

[01:17:52] is natural there's nothing you're going

[01:17:54] to give me even if it murders someone

[01:17:56] that's what chimps do they're violent so

[01:18:00] it it's still illegal and not acceptable

[01:18:02] but I'm saying everything's natural so

[01:18:05] that puts us on a different way of

[01:18:06] looking at it

[01:18:08] again to try and give context to that

[01:18:10] natural isn't always good

[01:18:13] um so overeating is natural but it's not

[01:18:15] good and even like the classic one I

[01:18:17] always use the parents and teenagers I

[01:18:19] always say if you've got said it this

[01:18:21] morning with someone if you've got a

[01:18:22] teenager who's got a tidy bedroom that's

[01:18:24] where I want to meet

[01:18:25] if they're messy bedroom great that's

[01:18:28] normal you know so you're more concerned

[01:18:30] with teenagers that aren't being

[01:18:32] teenagers so if this you've got a

[01:18:34] teenager who never lies then it's a bit

[01:18:37] worrying maybe they're good at deceit

[01:18:39] because teenagers are learning to lie

[01:18:42] and they're learning to defend

[01:18:43] themselves and it's unnatural doing it

[01:18:44] it's not health and the hope to the

[01:18:46] grounds of it but you've got to say

[01:18:48] what's natural and let's work with that

[01:18:51] to minimize risk or whatever we want to

[01:18:53] do

[01:18:54] so there's a long-winded way of saying

[01:18:56] you know get you to be yourself get your

[01:18:58] machine Let's see what the machine's

[01:19:00] doing and let's change the coping

[01:19:01] strategies but accept the machine is the

[01:19:04] machine quick one as some of you know

[01:19:05] Intel are sponsoring this podcast and

[01:19:08] for me Intel has made the search for a

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[01:19:54] it is that time of year again when my

[01:19:55] life becomes incredibly reliant on Hill

[01:19:58] I'm busier than ever I'm trying to be

[01:20:00] nutritionally complete in all that I do

[01:20:01] I'm trying to make sure I get all of the

[01:20:03] vitamins and minerals that I need in my

[01:20:04] diet and heal has been for the last

[01:20:07] three and a half years the primary

[01:20:09] reason as it relates to my diet that

[01:20:10] I've been able to be nutritionally

[01:20:12] complete while also being incredibly

[01:20:13] productive I always find that when I'm

[01:20:16] most busy when I'm most sort of sucked

[01:20:17] into my work my diet Falls by the

[01:20:20] wayside that's the trend that I've seen

[01:20:21] in all of my life especially when I'm

[01:20:22] stressed that's when I I end up

[01:20:24] resorting to foods that aren't

[01:20:25] nutritionally complete or healthy for me

[01:20:27] having fuel on hand has been a game

[01:20:29] changer not just for me I see it in my

[01:20:30] team we have two heel fridges in this

[01:20:32] building that we record the podcast in

[01:20:35] um and it's become a crutch I guess a

[01:20:37] health crutch a positive Health crutch

[01:20:39] for all of our team thank you huel for

[01:20:41] creating a product that has helped me

[01:20:42] and help my health stay intact in my

[01:20:44] busiest days over the last couple of

[01:20:46] years

[01:20:47] to the episode

[01:20:48] do we do we choose what we believe could

[01:20:52] I choose could I genuinely choose a

[01:20:54] belief you know we talked to everyone

[01:20:55] about how you can't just lie to yourself

[01:20:56] and brainwash yourself to think of

[01:20:58] something could I genuinely make myself

[01:21:00] believe something if could I choose to

[01:21:03] so could I choose to believe that you're

[01:21:04] a spaghetti monster if the if my whole

[01:21:07] life or my family was on the line could

[01:21:10] I choose that belief no

[01:21:11] no well others might argue no because

[01:21:14] clearly you've given a good example it's

[01:21:17] so ridiculous that you're brainwashing

[01:21:19] yourself whereas when you look at

[01:21:20] beliefs we have to look at

[01:21:22] evidence-based so say what's your

[01:21:25] experience in life and that will

[01:21:26] formulate our belief or what's your

[01:21:28] education so then with that said then I

[01:21:30] can't use my I can't choose a belief

[01:21:32] because my experience my evidence my

[01:21:33] education but I couldn't you couldn't no

[01:21:36] what you if we don't choose beliefs we

[01:21:37] develop beliefs yeah we develop them but

[01:21:40] we develop them on what we experience or

[01:21:42] what education tells us if I say to your

[01:21:44] research shows one in 200 people have

[01:21:46] got Psychopathic brains then you look at

[01:21:48] the research and go okay that's I

[01:21:50] believe that research no you may dispute

[01:21:52] it but if you have experience that blind

[01:21:55] me about one in 200 people hurt me then

[01:21:58] you've worked that out yourself so your

[01:22:00] experience but you might get someone

[01:22:01] who's really oblivious and lack of

[01:22:03] insight and say I believe one in two

[01:22:05] people hurt me and now you know you

[01:22:07] think well can we challenge that and

[01:22:09] let's see your experience but if it

[01:22:11] reson nets for them it's not for me to

[01:22:13] say well that's just rubbish that's

[01:22:16] their experience

[01:22:17] I'm really compelled by this idea of

[01:22:19] whether we choose our beliefs or not

[01:22:20] because I think that's this is at the

[01:22:21] heart of a lot of these topics like

[01:22:23] confidence and self-esteem you know

[01:22:24] there's a lot of people out there that

[01:22:25] say go look in the mirror and say nice

[01:22:27] things to yourself in the mirror and

[01:22:29] that will help you believe in yourself

[01:22:30] okay I'm glad you're laughing I'm glad

[01:22:33] you're laughing yeah it is silly isn't

[01:22:35] it I think if you look in the mirror and

[01:22:36] you say uh something that you don't

[01:22:39] really like looking back uh I think then

[01:22:42] you have to go down the road to say

[01:22:43] right is it really that important what I

[01:22:46] look like I can give you a good example

[01:22:48] years and years and years ago I worked

[01:22:50] with a young lady who didn't like what

[01:22:51] she looked like she really didn't and

[01:22:54] she was attractive in my opinion but I

[01:22:56] think everyone's attractive and I could

[01:22:59] there was no point me trying to convince

[01:23:01] her I was a young doctor then and this

[01:23:03] taught me and I couldn't get anywhere so

[01:23:06] I was struggling and I eventually she

[01:23:09] was in an inpatient we were worried

[01:23:11] about self-harm and so on and that was a

[01:23:13] coping strategy for having very low

[01:23:14] self-esteem and I was lost

[01:23:16] so as a junior doctor by chance I asked

[01:23:19] her just chatting to try and get us to

[01:23:21] see some value in her I said what'd you

[01:23:23] like doing she said I love animals and

[01:23:26] by chance we did have a bird table which

[01:23:28] was neglected and we also had a cat on

[01:23:31] the ward and no one really bothered with

[01:23:33] a cat and I said can I ask you to do

[01:23:34] something for me and this wasn't planned

[01:23:36] it was I just thought can you look after

[01:23:38] the bird table and can you look after

[01:23:40] the cat and without a word a lie a

[01:23:42] different person emerged and I sat there

[01:23:45] and I thought why is that changed

[01:23:47] because this isn't what you learned at

[01:23:48] Medical School you learn antidepressants

[01:23:50] and you know therapies and talk and I

[01:23:54] thought what have I just done and I'm

[01:23:55] young at that point to read around and I

[01:23:57] like to read outside of medicine and I

[01:23:59] thought I'd give her a purpose and that

[01:24:02] was her self-esteem she took it out of

[01:24:04] herself she then said doesn't matter

[01:24:05] what I look like I want to help the

[01:24:07] animals

[01:24:08] and this is a true story that she got

[01:24:11] discharged and went to work at an animal

[01:24:13] center on a veteran outpatient's

[01:24:15] follow-up and she was as happy as could

[01:24:17] be and I said we've got to broach the

[01:24:19] subject what about you know your

[01:24:20] self-esteem and where you look and she

[01:24:22] said well my self-esteem doesn't matter

[01:24:24] because she actually did have it but it

[01:24:26] was on I am a carer and these animals

[01:24:28] need me so you could argue

[01:24:30] psychodynamically she was looking after

[01:24:32] herself by looking after the animals she

[01:24:34] needed love so she gave love so I could

[01:24:36] see psycho and I was saying there you go

[01:24:38] I don't mind how it's interpreted it

[01:24:40] worked for me it worked so I suddenly

[01:24:43] thought wow sometimes people just need

[01:24:45] to have a purpose in life and feel

[01:24:47] valued and rather than what they look

[01:24:49] like so that was the start of me really

[01:24:52] starting to think as a young doctor you

[01:24:54] know don't go down one route trying to

[01:24:57] say things as being like a spectrum

[01:24:59] another toolbox to say well hang on

[01:25:01] let's stop looking in the mirror and

[01:25:03] let's start looking outside yourself

[01:25:05] because that could be the turning point

[01:25:07] for you

[01:25:08] so again that won't work for everyone

[01:25:11] so I have to when you say about this I

[01:25:13] probably get an idea now whenever

[01:25:15] someone comes in I have to really work

[01:25:17] hard to understand their mind what

[01:25:20] beliefs they're holding what's going to

[01:25:21] turn them around what's not helping what

[01:25:23] are the long-term consequences what

[01:25:25] hidden beliefs have they got that

[01:25:27] they're not aware of I've got to get

[01:25:28] them out and when I've done all that I

[01:25:31] then go to work on it to help them to

[01:25:33] challenge what we can both see has been

[01:25:35] unhelpful and replace them in that

[01:25:38] example of giving that young lady a a

[01:25:41] bird box and the cat and then I heard

[01:25:42] going working with animals and that

[01:25:44] making her feel a sense of sort of

[01:25:46] worthiness I guess yeah

[01:25:48] I was thinking about that

[01:25:50] if that job becomes gives her that sense

[01:25:54] of worthiness just like the relationship

[01:25:56] we've talked about and all these other

[01:25:57] stimulants can that then become a

[01:26:01] negative thing exactly any anything can

[01:26:04] count it and this is why I'm saying that

[01:26:06] when people say uh write me a book and I

[01:26:09] think I'm always reluctant to do it and

[01:26:11] it's took me 10 years to write this one

[01:26:12] as in 10 years later after the first one

[01:26:15] because I don't want to go in there with

[01:26:17] a process but I feel I've got to because

[01:26:19] you know so many people it's very

[01:26:21] humbling have said this is so helped you

[01:26:23] know it really makes sense to me that I

[01:26:25] thought I've got to expand on it and

[01:26:26] give it more details so people have

[01:26:27] really can do it themselves but the

[01:26:30] problem is it it's very individual so I

[01:26:33] have to work with the individual and yes

[01:26:34] that could become more positive for the

[01:26:36] rest of her life

[01:26:38] but as long as we can give a perspective

[01:26:39] as well

[01:26:40] that she's worthy as an individual but

[01:26:43] if your value is I believe the value I

[01:26:46] have is I want to be altruistic if that

[01:26:48] is a value you hold and you're living

[01:26:50] that value out by helping animals for

[01:26:52] example then we know that that will give

[01:26:55] you peace of mind

[01:26:57] what I was what I'm alluding to there as

[01:26:59] well is this workaholism yeah yes do I

[01:27:02] keep helping more and more and that do I

[01:27:04] work seven days a week and I can't leave

[01:27:05] the bloody Animal Sanctuary exactly and

[01:27:07] that's where you've got to get this

[01:27:08] tiddlywinks but come out and get

[01:27:10] perspective so say it right it's great

[01:27:12] you're doing that but don't start making

[01:27:14] it the more I do the better I am instead

[01:27:16] of saying no I have to look after myself

[01:27:18] too so again it isn't just one thing

[01:27:21] we're giving it very sort of linear here

[01:27:23] I'm just giving an example of one angle

[01:27:25] but then I would work on the girl in

[01:27:28] other areas of a life so it isn't just

[01:27:30] that angle but the bottom line is if you

[01:27:33] and I guess most people think this if

[01:27:36] you live if you've defined your values

[01:27:38] and you live by your values then you

[01:27:41] become a wholesome person so it's it's

[01:27:43] most people don't even know what their

[01:27:44] values are so I pushed this point that I

[01:27:47] think this is the only thing that I've

[01:27:49] ever seen that gives peace of mind and

[01:27:52] that's to live out your values but you

[01:27:53] have to find them first and people

[01:27:55] muddle up uh what's valuable and what's

[01:27:58] value

[01:27:59] they muddle them up so I tried to Define

[01:28:01] that clearly so people know like let's

[01:28:03] find your values and then let's start

[01:28:05] measuring how you live those values out

[01:28:07] because that it's not as easy as you

[01:28:09] think so I give this as exercise in a

[01:28:11] book to try and say work out your values

[01:28:13] and then live them out but measure them

[01:28:16] so again as an example let's say most

[01:28:18] people put down respect respect for

[01:28:21] others they like that that's a value I

[01:28:23] really hold to and then when you say to

[01:28:25] them well how would how would you

[01:28:26] demonstrate that

[01:28:27] people I don't know you know so I said

[01:28:31] well let's look there are many ways you

[01:28:32] can so for example one way you could

[01:28:34] demonstrate respect is by listening to

[01:28:36] someone

[01:28:37] by thinking I want to get their point of

[01:28:39] view because that's respectful not

[01:28:40] judging them just listening I may not

[01:28:42] agree but I'm going to listen

[01:28:44] that is one thing you could do by

[01:28:46] testing it weekly to say let me start

[01:28:49] listening to people because that then at

[01:28:51] the end of the day I think that was

[01:28:52] respectful

[01:28:53] I may not agree and I would be polite in

[01:28:56] saying beer said if I don't agree but

[01:28:58] I'm listening and I respect your view

[01:29:00] so if that resonates if then that's one

[01:29:03] way of measuring them being respectful

[01:29:05] so I like people to do work with me

[01:29:07] where we work on things like this

[01:29:10] and then they get high self-esteem so

[01:29:12] going back to the young lady if I did

[01:29:13] that was her then she would say right so

[01:29:16] caring for Animals is great it's

[01:29:18] altruistic but actually I've got

[01:29:20] something else now as well so exactly

[01:29:21] what he said it doesn't become the devil

[01:29:23] where I've gotta I've got to do this

[01:29:25] every day otherwise I'm failing again uh

[01:29:28] you get get it into context

[01:29:31] has working with a patient ever made you

[01:29:33] cry

[01:29:34] yes

[01:29:36] yeah I mean can you tell me about an

[01:29:38] instance

[01:29:39] I don't think I've ever cried in front

[01:29:41] of a patient I'm pretty sure I haven't

[01:29:43] but I think obviously I deal with

[01:29:45] tragedies in life and they're painful so

[01:29:48] in the room I I have to contain him or

[01:29:50] if you look at the psych falling apart

[01:29:51] but on the other hand you know I'm a

[01:29:53] human being and you go away and you

[01:29:54] think uh somebody for example horror

[01:29:57] stories like some parents who's lost

[01:29:58] their child that there's no way back you

[01:30:01] know and my view which may be wrong is

[01:30:03] that I say to people can we start by

[01:30:05] your emotionally scarred this isn't

[01:30:07] going to go away this is for life but

[01:30:09] we're going to learn how we can cope

[01:30:10] with it but you're not going to be the

[01:30:13] same you cannot get over this so you

[01:30:15] won't come to terms with it at all

[01:30:16] you'll learn to manage it there's a

[01:30:18] difference because I think yeah I'd love

[01:30:20] it to you from parents to say I've come

[01:30:22] to terms with it but that's really hard

[01:30:24] my experience has been adorned so when I

[01:30:26] leave the room and I think how am I

[01:30:27] going to work for this man and woman

[01:30:30] um and and get them to come to terms

[01:30:32] with it I have to sort of this is only

[01:30:34] where I work get inside the head and

[01:30:36] that's so painful that it distresses me

[01:30:39] I feel it then you think gee you know so

[01:30:43] I do that with everyone I do it with

[01:30:44] sports people I do it with the police I

[01:30:46] do it with doctors I'll try and get in

[01:30:47] their head and think what is their world

[01:30:49] hopefully it's not that tragic but when

[01:30:51] it's tragic tragic yeah it's painful so

[01:30:54] it brings tears to me how do you deal

[01:30:56] with that

[01:30:58] um learn to recognize and talk to myself

[01:31:00] you know which I do and so at the end of

[01:31:03] the day I can't change life I can't

[01:31:05] change things you know tragedies happen

[01:31:07] uh and it's not going to be helpful for

[01:31:09] me to dwell on it what is helpful is to

[01:31:11] me to get inside the head and experience

[01:31:12] the pain experience the feelings and

[01:31:15] hopefully even the thoughts so that I

[01:31:17] can then get outside of my head which I

[01:31:19] think is a skill to do and actually then

[01:31:22] say right what can I do about it because

[01:31:24] then if it resonates with me it's

[01:31:26] possibly going to resonate with the

[01:31:27] person I'm working with so I go about

[01:31:29] feeling it I know what I can say here

[01:31:31] and try it but then I don't have this

[01:31:33] approach where actually I'm not feeling

[01:31:35] or experiencing what they've got this is

[01:31:37] not for everyone I can hear a lot of

[01:31:39] therapists going this is everything

[01:31:40] you're taught not to do uh good on you

[01:31:42] uh it's how I work and it works for me

[01:31:46] I I've heard you in a path through the

[01:31:49] jungle talk talk about what you just

[01:31:50] said there which is you actually talk to

[01:31:52] yourself yeah in the past through the

[01:31:55] jungle you talk about talking to the

[01:31:56] chimp yeah

[01:31:58] yeah I mean again to lighten the mood

[01:32:00] because it's quite heavy

[01:32:02] um there's lots of great things I've had

[01:32:03] and lots of great experience and not

[01:32:05] success and and I said to people I was

[01:32:07] packed yourself in the back when you do

[01:32:08] this but one of the things my chimp

[01:32:10] responds to it I don't know why he

[01:32:11] responds to this uh is sarcasm that I've

[01:32:15] worked that out so and ever something

[01:32:16] upsets my chimp and I just think oh come

[01:32:18] on get a life and I can't my chips going

[01:32:21] for me I say to the chimp very quickly

[01:32:24] right can I just ask do you want to be

[01:32:26] upset for a minute an hour the rest of

[01:32:28] our lives just give me a give me a help

[01:32:30] I don't know why it makes me laugh so it

[01:32:33] disowns my chimp and we know that if you

[01:32:36] can laugh at yourself or a circumstance

[01:32:38] you can't always but if you can uh we

[01:32:42] know that's the only time the brain

[01:32:44] seems to default into human mode

[01:32:46] because what you're really doing if you

[01:32:48] think the chimp's job is to alert us to

[01:32:50] danger and worry where you start

[01:32:52] laughing genuinely particularly yourself

[01:32:54] The Chimps disarmed it has no job so it

[01:32:56] goes silence it literally will silence

[01:32:59] and you'll see the blood supply and

[01:33:00] oxygen uptake in the human circuits and

[01:33:02] so I come back to me and think okay

[01:33:05] May Witter again but you know I'll deal

[01:33:08] with it so yeah I talked to my chimp and

[01:33:11] that I know what it what can bring me

[01:33:13] around when you say talk dude you mean

[01:33:15] out loud I wouldn't do that without

[01:33:17] people around uh because I tried

[01:33:20] upstairs all right yeah I felt like my

[01:33:22] chimp had a little bit of a hold of me

[01:33:24] about something and so I tried just

[01:33:26] having a conversation with myself out

[01:33:28] loud then it works and it works tell you

[01:33:31] why this and again I'll both go through

[01:33:33] this in detail for those of what the

[01:33:34] science behind it is reference when

[01:33:38] um when we talked ourselves

[01:33:40] we talk often from the chimp we can talk

[01:33:43] from the human but when we listen the

[01:33:45] human process is what we hear which is

[01:33:47] why often you know we talk to a friend

[01:33:49] and we say I feel a lot better it's not

[01:33:51] just getting it off your chest you're

[01:33:52] listening so often in a team meeting and

[01:33:55] business for example I'll sit and I'll

[01:33:56] say just talk from your chimp and

[01:33:58] they'll talk and talk and I say right

[01:34:00] when you've got off your chest how much

[01:34:01] do you believe without no go nothing is

[01:34:04] rubbish because you're actually

[01:34:05] processing what you're saying so the

[01:34:08] more we talk out loud the more we

[01:34:09] process from our human and bring

[01:34:11] perspective in which the chimp can't do

[01:34:14] we bring perspective and reality to the

[01:34:16] table and that can bring us back to

[01:34:18] Earth

[01:34:19] so it does work so behind locked doors

[01:34:22] yes I mean when I worked

[01:34:25] um with British cycling which was great

[01:34:28] at the time and my many Fantastic people

[01:34:30] there great achievements when I used to

[01:34:33] drive in for I live in the peak

[01:34:34] districts it was an hour's drive and I

[01:34:36] would literally on the morning say to my

[01:34:38] chimp right before we get there don't

[01:34:40] want your opinion don't want you to

[01:34:42] interfere but when we come home I'll let

[01:34:45] you talk don't ask me why it works

[01:34:47] probably think I'm nuts but it worked my

[01:34:49] brain almost went into computer mode

[01:34:50] saying not the right time yet not the

[01:34:52] right time so I would do with a lot of

[01:34:54] upsets you can imagine working with

[01:34:55] people you get a lot of all kinds of

[01:34:57] things and then I would come home and at

[01:35:00] a particularly Point entering the Peaks

[01:35:01] where I'd say okay to your time and my

[01:35:03] chip would come out and then I would let

[01:35:05] it say well that was so unreasonable of

[01:35:07] that person that was and once I've done

[01:35:09] that as our chimps do you can't keep

[01:35:11] going it used to get bored of its own

[01:35:13] voice and until you're finished and it's

[01:35:15] Yayo it's fine now so that won't work

[01:35:19] for everyone you know but I'm just

[01:35:21] saying sometimes it does work

[01:35:23] uh I would just like to add because I

[01:35:26] think I'm fairly resilient

[01:35:28] um when we're not resilient sometimes

[01:35:30] you got give TLC

[01:35:32] so I'm not always phone with the chimps

[01:35:34] sometimes I go you got a point

[01:35:36] sometimes I agree with it and again this

[01:35:38] is learning how to deal with you your

[01:35:40] own emotions what works for you so I try

[01:35:43] this with people and say what what

[01:35:44] resonates with you you've got to try it

[01:35:46] but sometimes after saving to my own gym

[01:35:48] you've got good reason to be upset

[01:35:50] you've got good reason to be distressed

[01:35:53] you know I get it and that giving

[01:35:55] yourself reassurance and TLC can be very

[01:35:59] powerful

[01:36:00] is that what you refer to as exercising

[01:36:02] your chimp exercising the chimp is when

[01:36:04] you let out emotion express yourself so

[01:36:06] it doesn't have to be high emotion

[01:36:08] expression can just be can I just say I

[01:36:10] think what's just happened was

[01:36:11] unreasonable I think this person was way

[01:36:13] out of order or it can be without

[01:36:16] emotion saying this person's just

[01:36:17] damaged me you know or particularly

[01:36:20] reputations of people are in other

[01:36:22] people's hands and you see I see a lot

[01:36:25] of this where you you've got

[01:36:26] reputational damage and you can't do

[01:36:28] anything about that because it's not in

[01:36:29] your hands the more you try and defend

[01:36:31] your reputation the worse it gets so you

[01:36:33] have to just suck it up so there's where

[01:36:35] I'd said be reasonable with your chimp

[01:36:37] you know don't down it and say come on

[01:36:39] get over it because it needs TLC

[01:36:41] and there's lots of times lots of

[01:36:43] circumstances TLC is appropriate

[01:36:46] but you have to learn when to go enough

[01:36:48] because it tips to self-pity

[01:36:50] so we we exercise the chimp we let it

[01:36:52] out let it out express emotion or

[01:36:55] express feelings or express it in words

[01:36:57] step two is as I read in the book is

[01:36:59] then we figure out if it can be

[01:37:01] addressed yeah

[01:37:02] and say in the case of reputational

[01:37:04] damage someone said something it's not

[01:37:05] true it's out in the Press I can't

[01:37:06] whatever you know I can't respond

[01:37:08] whatever it might be then step three is

[01:37:10] we make a plan to move forward yeah and

[01:37:13] that can often be let's look at reality

[01:37:14] here in the facts of the situation that

[01:37:16] no but nobody is immune to attacks

[01:37:19] nobody it doesn't matter you know I

[01:37:20] often say if an angel from heaven fell

[01:37:22] to Earth it would be attacked you know

[01:37:24] and so you've got to get reality that

[01:37:26] and then the reality is if you're not

[01:37:29] going to please everyone uh and

[01:37:31] something has terrible happened go to

[01:37:33] your friends because that's all that

[01:37:34] counts at the end

[01:37:36] you know it took you with at the end of

[01:37:38] the day and these are your friends your

[01:37:39] partner potentially your family the

[01:37:41] people that's done with that's why I

[01:37:42] said the truth this is your fall back we

[01:37:44] talked about earlier you turn to them

[01:37:46] and they're then the ones who go we

[01:37:47] don't care we know you who you are we

[01:37:50] love you and even if you've made a

[01:37:52] mistake they're forgiving

[01:37:54] you know at the end of the day we're not

[01:37:56] perfect human beings nobody's an angel

[01:37:58] We're Not Angels we're human beings with

[01:38:00] machines that can run as a right and

[01:38:03] even though humans can get it wrong

[01:38:05] sometimes it would be in the chimp it's

[01:38:07] not it's the human you know that circuit

[01:38:09] can do it irrationally you know it's not

[01:38:11] always rational when it comes in you

[01:38:13] must have dealt with this a lot dealing

[01:38:14] with high performance athletes and

[01:38:16] people in the public eye yeah yeah a lot

[01:38:19] of teenagers because again that's a

[01:38:21] vulnerable time but a lot of people so

[01:38:23] it's a privilege to deal with it's

[01:38:25] uncomfortable you know you deal with

[01:38:27] actors actresses and deal with um Sports

[01:38:30] people what about footballers have you

[01:38:31] ever dealt with any footballers yeah I

[01:38:33] worked at England football for three

[01:38:34] years and I worked with Liverpool

[01:38:36] for three years so I know a lot of the

[01:38:38] lads went very public which was great

[01:38:40] and again they were not in a bad place

[01:38:42] when I met them what they were saying is

[01:38:43] how to optimize performance and and

[01:38:45] again they might deal with some really

[01:38:47] bad comments in the press and which you

[01:38:50] know behind locked doors I'm thinking

[01:38:51] this isn't right that I don't think

[01:38:54] they've got the right end of the stick

[01:38:55] here you know and so all I can do is

[01:38:57] stand with them and say look you know I

[01:38:59] know the real person

[01:39:00] you know I don't know what you're going

[01:39:02] through and I can only give them my

[01:39:03] support and sometimes that's all people

[01:39:05] need they need somebody who's there for

[01:39:07] them to say you know you're struggling

[01:39:09] here but I'm here

[01:39:10] and I know the truth we can't change a

[01:39:13] falsehood or so otherwise someone

[01:39:15] interprets you know we can't

[01:39:17] so we have to recognize when we can't

[01:39:19] change it we fall back to the troop and

[01:39:21] say just give me some TLC or support

[01:39:25] habits

[01:39:26] a lot of people are thinking about

[01:39:27] habits it's January

[01:39:30] um I made a video on habits a couple of

[01:39:31] couple of weeks ago um

[01:39:34] in in a path through the jungle you talk

[01:39:37] about how

[01:39:39] our habits are influenced by our

[01:39:41] self-image yeah that was a curious

[01:39:44] sentence to read and not something I'd

[01:39:46] heard before what do you mean by okay

[01:39:48] there's lots of ways we form habits

[01:39:50] um whether they're helpful or

[01:39:52] destructive

[01:39:53] um and I'm giving examples so that's one

[01:39:55] you picked out that's quite powerfully

[01:39:56] if you grasp it so for example

[01:39:59] um I'll take the simple example which I

[01:40:01] may have put in the book I don't

[01:40:02] remember uh if I wrote down I'd say to

[01:40:05] someone do you see yourself as someone

[01:40:06] who is a tidy person who gets on with

[01:40:08] things immediately or do you see

[01:40:10] yourself as someone who procrastinates

[01:40:11] and it's pretty untidy I'm untidy right

[01:40:14] so if you've got that self-image and you

[01:40:16] go home and your room is untidy I'm

[01:40:18] being very black and white here then

[01:40:20] there's no feelings at all because

[01:40:21] that's who you are you're untidy that's

[01:40:23] true so that if you don't do anything

[01:40:24] that's true was if you say right change

[01:40:27] your image and say actually my chimp

[01:40:29] being tied I'm a tidy person

[01:40:31] in some cases you're now programming the

[01:40:35] computer you now go home and say wow

[01:40:36] this isn't me

[01:40:38] and that can change so if your

[01:40:40] self-image is I'm not my chimp that's an

[01:40:42] untidy little beggar I am actually a

[01:40:45] tidy person how do I change that so far

[01:40:47] well you've got to sit down and reflect

[01:40:49] on this

[01:40:50] um I mean a lot of the things in the

[01:40:51] book I've done as a young doctor when I

[01:40:53] became a psychiatrist I decided I didn't

[01:40:55] want to be a psychiatrist didn't

[01:40:57] actually manage themselves and that's no

[01:40:59] detriment to psykes who struggle because

[01:41:01] it's not an easy career or any any

[01:41:03] therapist it's a tough career but I

[01:41:05] decided look I'm going to work on me

[01:41:07] because I can't keep doing this which is

[01:41:09] where the chip model came from and it

[01:41:11] was one of my light bulb moments many

[01:41:13] many years ago where I would I would be

[01:41:15] procrastinating and and then I suddenly

[01:41:18] thought you know what that isn't who I

[01:41:20] want to be

[01:41:21] so I thought that isn't me I'm actually

[01:41:24] similar gets on with things and I used

[01:41:26] to get in and I'd just go right get on

[01:41:27] with it and it's never left me I just

[01:41:29] don't know that is who I am so I become

[01:41:31] uncomfortable now if things were untidy

[01:41:33] I agitate and think no get it tidied up

[01:41:36] uh so I start perceiving myself as this

[01:41:39] energized guy who's going to get up and

[01:41:41] do stuff so if you define yourself image

[01:41:43] you're actually programming your

[01:41:44] computer say this is normal anything

[01:41:47] else isn't and that will actually help

[01:41:50] your chimp to agitate which will then

[01:41:52] join forces and tidy the room

[01:41:54] so instead of your chimp going oh I

[01:41:56] can't be bothered suddenly it's saying

[01:41:57] wow I'm being told we're not untidy so

[01:42:00] this is unacceptable not normal

[01:42:03] and that's what I did and I found that

[01:42:05] very powerful in my life

[01:42:07] so I get I get lots and lots of emails

[01:42:09] the other thing I found really curious

[01:42:10] in this section about habits in chapter

[01:42:11] in stage four of the book is

[01:42:14] um when people think about habit Loops

[01:42:15] they often have a reward at the end of

[01:42:18] it yeah you reference suffering now

[01:42:21] there's this quote I heard many years

[01:42:22] ago I think it was just over 10 years

[01:42:25] ago it must have been God I'm getting

[01:42:26] old

[01:42:27] um where I heard this YouTuber say

[01:42:28] change happens when the pain of staying

[01:42:30] the same becomes greater than the pain

[01:42:32] of making a change and when I'm thinking

[01:42:34] about friends that I have in my life all

[01:42:36] myself where there's habits or there's

[01:42:38] Behavior patterns that that I want to

[01:42:39] break sometimes I'm thinking about one

[01:42:42] particular person who's um who's uh

[01:42:44] who's a musician sometimes they have to

[01:42:46] get to that Rock Bottom place before you

[01:42:49] see change happen yeah is that because

[01:42:51] of that is that because sometimes the

[01:42:52] suffering has to yeah I mean it's just a

[01:42:55] self-evident you know if you're for

[01:42:57] example in a bad relationship and it's

[01:42:58] really not doing any favors and it's not

[01:43:00] doing them any favors but it's not bad

[01:43:03] enough then you struggle along and

[01:43:05] struggle along but if suddenly something

[01:43:06] happens where it becomes untenable and

[01:43:09] it's painful now then you move you think

[01:43:11] stop the relationship and then you look

[01:43:13] back thinking why didn't I move earlier

[01:43:15] and the answer was because it wasn't

[01:43:16] painful enough

[01:43:18] and the same would like untied in US you

[01:43:21] leave it and leave it and leave it and

[01:43:22] then somebody comes in and says a

[01:43:25] partner yeah fly me I can't live with

[01:43:28] this and suddenly you think wow suddenly

[01:43:30] it's painful is there a way to get there

[01:43:33] without the person needing to point out

[01:43:35] yeah there is I mean when I talk about

[01:43:37] relationships are critical to us now I

[01:43:39] say to people the way we move is we've

[01:43:41] got to I have the triangle of change

[01:43:44] which is really the three key things

[01:43:46] that cause us to move and with the one

[01:43:47] you've highlighted is either it's got a

[01:43:50] massive reward or there's going to be

[01:43:52] massive pain and suffering so if you're

[01:43:53] trying to you want it you're courting

[01:43:55] someone you want to form a permanent

[01:43:57] relationship when they say I can't stand

[01:43:58] untidiness you'll guarantee your Flat's

[01:44:00] perfect when they come in right because

[01:44:02] you're thinking if I don't I'm going to

[01:44:03] lose this person so that the reward is

[01:44:05] so big however that then they marry you

[01:44:08] and for some reason we've tipped them

[01:44:09] for granted and we forget that bit now

[01:44:11] and then the flat becomes untidy and

[01:44:15] then she starts saying to you you know

[01:44:16] I'm struggling with this I'm struggling

[01:44:17] but there's no right yeah so now it's

[01:44:20] not painful enough so she's struggling

[01:44:22] with it now I love the guy but this is

[01:44:24] this is now what I do so I'll say let's

[01:44:26] increase the pain I want you to sit down

[01:44:29] and imagine

[01:44:30] she can't call up and she's had a bad

[01:44:32] day and someone at work says oh come

[01:44:35] over and chat and this young man has a

[01:44:37] tidy flat naturally and she goes oh wow

[01:44:40] and I warn people how are you going to

[01:44:42] feel if she walks because once they've

[01:44:44] gone they've very rarely come back and

[01:44:46] if you don't look after them someone

[01:44:48] else will if you reflect on that that

[01:44:51] can suddenly make reality come to life

[01:44:54] to say I'm not there yet but blindly

[01:44:57] this would be painful so I'm suddenly

[01:44:59] gonna stop and think let me look after

[01:45:01] them because if I don't somebody will

[01:45:03] and we know unfortunately that happens a

[01:45:05] lot and when you do ask interview people

[01:45:07] say well why did you leave him or her

[01:45:09] and they say I just got fed up with it

[01:45:12] and there was no love or affection left

[01:45:14] they didn't pay any attention they used

[01:45:16] to

[01:45:17] that's so common that's so common so you

[01:45:19] can increase the concept of suffering by

[01:45:22] reflecting and thinking what would like

[01:45:24] be like if she left

[01:45:27] so anyway I don't know you might say

[01:45:29] it'd be better no no I was thinking

[01:45:31] about how I need to tell you my my room

[01:45:33] well no that's that's what I'm saying

[01:45:35] now again it may not work for you you

[01:45:37] might say to me I did that and he didn't

[01:45:39] make any impact no it does I can

[01:45:41] remember the last time my girlfriend I

[01:45:43] saw her upset about something and I care

[01:45:44] about this is I wanted to add in from

[01:45:46] earlier on the reason why I think in the

[01:45:48] last two years as I said I am I've been

[01:45:51] able to listen to when we have

[01:45:53] conversations and apologize straight

[01:45:55] away is because I just love I love her

[01:45:57] so much and I think about the last time

[01:45:59] she raised an issue with me and she was

[01:46:01] upset and she was talking to me she

[01:46:03] never shouts like me I I was so scared

[01:46:06] about like

[01:46:07] losing her that there you go I I part of

[01:46:11] my head she'll listen to this because

[01:46:12] she's a big fan of yours she loves this

[01:46:13] book by the way okay I I got it for her

[01:46:16] after last time we spoke and she

[01:46:17] absolutely loves it um

[01:46:19] part of me was like

[01:46:21] she was telling me how she feels I was

[01:46:22] like oh my God she's gonna dump me oh my

[01:46:24] God exactly I thought I was gonna lose

[01:46:25] her I know it's not the case and it's

[01:46:28] just just this irrational part of my

[01:46:30] brain I think she's finished with you

[01:46:32] and that really makes me go [ __ ] I

[01:46:35] need to immediately change it it was

[01:46:37] we're having a conversation about

[01:46:38] quality time and I hadn't given I hadn't

[01:46:40] give spent much quality time with her

[01:46:42] because I was so caught up in my work

[01:46:44] so the minute she said that I was like

[01:46:46] looking at my calendar and canceling

[01:46:47] things yeah but I needed the warning it

[01:46:49] seemed and that's what I'm trying to say

[01:46:51] now there's there's this like the

[01:46:54] devil's in the detail let's say that you

[01:46:55] go home and you really make an effort

[01:46:57] you tidy the house and you really clean

[01:46:58] it up and she comes home and she doesn't

[01:47:00] notice

[01:47:01] there's a danger now and I do Advocate

[01:47:04] that sometimes you say it to them

[01:47:05] because your chimp needs to that get

[01:47:07] that Accolade so it's no good not

[01:47:09] helping it you don't need that but your

[01:47:11] chimp does so it's worth saying can I

[01:47:13] just say because I love you I've tied at

[01:47:14] the flat because then your chimp goes

[01:47:17] right good I get the Accolade now so I'm

[01:47:19] not saying you should not jump out I'm

[01:47:22] saying you should be getting the chimp

[01:47:23] so it feels good and then hopefully

[01:47:25] she'll say wow I love you too and I

[01:47:27] appreciate that and then that's nicely

[01:47:29] rounded up but you get you do get

[01:47:31] circumstances where I'll work with

[01:47:32] people say I tied to fly I didn't she

[01:47:34] doesn't even recognize me a concert for

[01:47:36] my dad she didn't recognize it and I

[01:47:38] think well you know I'm not saying I'm a

[01:47:40] goody goody but I'm saying let them know

[01:47:42] because your trip saying please make

[01:47:43] sure they know and they've recognized it

[01:47:46] and again I don't know that maybe

[01:47:48] couples where they say if I say that

[01:47:50] she'll lose it so I said well don't do

[01:47:51] it then tell me and I as a therapist

[01:47:53] I'll say to you well done and that might

[01:47:55] be enough for your chimp so again it's

[01:47:57] that thing which I keep saying just Dave

[01:47:58] I've got to work with the person in

[01:48:00] front of me and the potentially their

[01:48:02] partner or family and say well what

[01:48:05] would they do before we make a plan

[01:48:08] that was step one in your triangle which

[01:48:10] is one yeah one of the points the other

[01:48:12] two

[01:48:13] um for people to shift they've got to

[01:48:16] have psychological mindedness which

[01:48:17] means they've got to understand that

[01:48:19] it's not about what happens to us in

[01:48:21] life it's how we deal with it that's

[01:48:23] basically what we mean so we understand

[01:48:25] that just because you've got certain

[01:48:27] emotions don't doesn't mean you can't

[01:48:29] change them and things have to change

[01:48:30] our people have to change for you to

[01:48:32] change it's within your power to be

[01:48:35] responsible for the things you believe

[01:48:36] and change so psychological mindedness

[01:48:39] means you get up and start working on

[01:48:41] this it's within your power to shift

[01:48:43] things that's that personal

[01:48:44] responsibility yes and also if you can't

[01:48:46] shift them you know like say go back

[01:48:48] let's say life hadn't been grit for you

[01:48:50] and I'm sure you worked hard to get

[01:48:52] where you've got but let's say you still

[01:48:54] were in that poverty situation you

[01:48:55] thought I didn't have the skill to do

[01:48:57] what I'm doing I didn't use that skill

[01:48:59] because it was never there so a lot of

[01:49:02] people are trapped and they say well I'm

[01:49:03] still living in a pretty bad place I'm

[01:49:05] struggling financially and that's a lot

[01:49:06] of people it's painful but again

[01:49:09] psychological mindedness tough as it is

[01:49:11] is to say well let me deal with that

[01:49:13] I can't change it but I can change my

[01:49:16] approach to it

[01:49:17] and that's not easy I'm not saying

[01:49:19] that's easy and then you have to work at

[01:49:21] how do you do that and it'll be

[01:49:22] different for different people

[01:49:24] so psychological mindedness means take

[01:49:26] responsibility accept what's in front of

[01:49:29] you and then move forward

[01:49:31] um so other than that what you do

[01:49:33] non-psychological mind is where you

[01:49:34] blame everybody else or Bloom

[01:49:36] circumstances I said this happened to me

[01:49:38] in childhood or these may all be genuine

[01:49:40] but they're not actually helpful

[01:49:42] disempowering right yeah yeah you're

[01:49:45] using them as an excuse not to take

[01:49:46] responsibility and turn them over and

[01:49:48] whatever your power to something else

[01:49:50] right yes

[01:49:51] and you've got to get the power back and

[01:49:53] say it's within my power why do people

[01:49:55] like doing that why do people like

[01:49:57] making excuses

[01:49:59] um including me I have to say again it's

[01:50:01] really difficult to I mean a lot of

[01:50:03] people when they're in not a great place

[01:50:05] find it very easy to be the victim

[01:50:08] they don't want to be a victim but they

[01:50:10] find it easy so they'll use an illness

[01:50:13] as an example so that it gives them that

[01:50:16] remit say well I'm not well I'm not well

[01:50:18] when the reality is they don't know how

[01:50:21] to move forward so it's easier to just

[01:50:22] go not well and people then go well and

[01:50:24] not well and there'll be some truth in

[01:50:26] it but actually not fully the truth so

[01:50:29] people often use as a defense mechanism

[01:50:31] the victim role

[01:50:34] sometimes they I have been a victim and

[01:50:36] then they need to work through that and

[01:50:37] process it but there's a danger you

[01:50:39] start to use it or you start blooming

[01:50:41] circumstance like you might have said to

[01:50:43] me I didn't make it because my parents

[01:50:45] never helped me well you know there are

[01:50:48] people his parents don't help them but

[01:50:49] they do make it so you have to say well

[01:50:51] hang on don't use that because it'll

[01:50:53] keep you in this not great place there

[01:50:54] will be truth in it potentially and then

[01:50:57] I will give the TLC and the recognition

[01:50:58] that that didn't help but on the other

[01:51:00] hand let's look at what he can do

[01:51:01] regardless of the background I was

[01:51:03] reading and I talked about something in

[01:51:05] my my episode about habits that

[01:51:08] there's something called the question

[01:51:09] Behavior effect

[01:51:11] where if someone is asked about

[01:51:13] something they want to do so like let's

[01:51:15] say I want to go to the gym if I'm asked

[01:51:17] verbally by a friend they say you you

[01:51:18] know are you going to go to the gym

[01:51:19] people might say

[01:51:21] um whatever they might say yes no they

[01:51:22] might come up with an excuse as to why

[01:51:23] they can't go today but when they're

[01:51:25] asked on pen and paper or on a computer

[01:51:27] and it's a yes or no answer if they

[01:51:29] answer yes they are more likely to then

[01:51:31] go to the gym and when I was reading

[01:51:33] around the science as to where that is

[01:51:34] they talked a lot about this this idea

[01:51:36] of cognitive dissonance and we want to

[01:51:39] right kind of interrupt you because what

[01:51:40] you're giving me is exactly what you

[01:51:42] said earlier about self-image right so

[01:51:44] what you've affected on is the same

[01:51:45] thing is when I take yes it means that's

[01:51:47] the norm I go to the gym so the

[01:51:50] cognitive distance if I don't go to the

[01:51:52] gym that's not normal yeah that's

[01:51:54] exactly the same as saying when I'm a

[01:51:57] tidy person I come home I don't expect a

[01:51:59] mess I tidy up immediately that the

[01:52:01] cognitive dissonances I'm doing

[01:52:03] something which doesn't tally with my

[01:52:05] belief for people that don't understand

[01:52:07] the term cognitive dissonance

[01:52:10] it's doing something against your belief

[01:52:13] system so if I say I'm a vegetarian and

[01:52:15] then I eat meat

[01:52:17] I'm now in turmoil it's like it's like a

[01:52:20] mental friction because yes you're not

[01:52:22] like your behavior doesn't align to who

[01:52:24] you think the dissonance is doing one

[01:52:25] thing which is opposed to what you're

[01:52:27] saying or believing so I might say I'm

[01:52:29] not someone who lies and then you come

[01:52:31] to see me and I tell you a lie I go home

[01:52:33] I'll have cognitive dissonance it's very

[01:52:35] likely if I have a conscience uh which

[01:52:37] most of us have that that will prey on

[01:52:39] me and I think oh I don't like myself

[01:52:41] for doing this this is wrong and then

[01:52:43] I'll hopefully ring and say can I just

[01:52:45] clear it so I'm not living out my values

[01:52:47] so this is cognitive dissonance so I can

[01:52:49] get why if you said are you going to go

[01:52:51] to the gym and you take yes it's the

[01:52:53] same principle I need to go because if I

[01:52:55] don't I'm going to be in trouble I've

[01:52:57] ticked yes interestingly when it's not

[01:52:59] on pen and paper and when it's not a

[01:53:00] binary choice of yes or no

[01:53:03] um people are then less likely to go to

[01:53:05] the gym because there's room for excuse

[01:53:06] exactly exactly so I can go I'm gonna go

[01:53:09] on Monday yeah and then like there's no

[01:53:11] cognitive dissonance because I feel like

[01:53:13] I've satisfied myself with an excuse

[01:53:14] yeah and I'm nice and aligned

[01:53:17] um

[01:53:17] but yeah I found that really interesting

[01:53:19] and I was talking to to in the episode

[01:53:22] about how when you do want to set an

[01:53:24] intention a great way of doing it is by

[01:53:26] asking yourself a yes or no question and

[01:53:27] doing it in some kind of binary way well

[01:53:30] again it's why and again I recommend

[01:53:32] this in not everyone but most people if

[01:53:34] you're putting up something on a piece

[01:53:35] of paper and measure things our chimp

[01:53:39] Gets behind us now so it drives us to do

[01:53:41] things so if we can see something being

[01:53:43] measured and it's getting worse we tend

[01:53:46] to do something about it

[01:53:47] um and that's because the chimp doesn't

[01:53:49] like to fail because it's ego is at risk

[01:53:51] and as I said earlier when you we're

[01:53:52] back in our conversation the chimp has

[01:53:54] it it's about achievement it's about

[01:53:57] self-esteem it's so it doesn't want to

[01:53:59] fail

[01:54:00] so the chimp Jones forces with us so one

[01:54:02] way is to help yourselves get it on

[01:54:04] board instead of seeing it negative is

[01:54:06] the best friend your life is my best

[01:54:07] friend my chimp is my best friend he

[01:54:10] just needs a bit of help at times and he

[01:54:12] does things different to me and I

[01:54:13] usually say he's inept uh but that

[01:54:15] doesn't mean I don't love him so I don't

[01:54:18] dislike my chimp I just need to learn to

[01:54:20] understand him and get him to help me

[01:54:22] use his energy goals and I guess Health

[01:54:24] trackers and those kind of things really

[01:54:26] help to keep us because the chimp will

[01:54:27] join forces with you and then that last

[01:54:29] point in the in the Triangle right The

[01:54:31] Habit triangle commitment yeah what I'm

[01:54:33] saying with this is again teasing up the

[01:54:36] Neuroscience if we go on motivation and

[01:54:39] and again if people use it great right

[01:54:41] but the evidence is that it doesn't

[01:54:43] really help it doesn't really work it's

[01:54:45] very hard to maintain

[01:54:47] whereas if that's the chimp system so it

[01:54:49] can work if your chimp is motivated

[01:54:51] because the reward is so big their

[01:54:53] motivation will follow that and be high

[01:54:54] but we all know that I get a lot of

[01:54:57] talks can you help motivate and I say no

[01:54:58] not at all I don't want to do that

[01:55:00] because you're constantly propping it up

[01:55:03] um my Approach which is not as I said

[01:55:06] not everyone will agree is if you look

[01:55:07] at the site Neuroscience if you use

[01:55:09] commitment that means I remove my

[01:55:12] emotion and I plan on what I have to do

[01:55:14] and I get on with it so commitment

[01:55:16] there's a lot of evidence that that

[01:55:18] makes us succeed so for example if I've

[01:55:21] got to go and weed the garden it's not

[01:55:22] my favorite pastime but I think right

[01:55:24] you know the neighbors might complain I

[01:55:26] don't have any neighbors but they might

[01:55:28] so but and my Chip's gonna leave it who

[01:55:31] cares there's any weeds and it's going

[01:55:32] to kill you back and it but I would then

[01:55:34] say it this I will right you stay in

[01:55:36] here

[01:55:37] I'm going out and if you want to join me

[01:55:39] great but I'm I'm doing the garden

[01:55:41] I remove emotion and I say what has to

[01:55:44] be done is getting done and he's getting

[01:55:45] done now we're not discussing it and I

[01:55:48] will start motivation will follow

[01:55:50] commitment and that means the chimp room

[01:55:52] will then get behind me because by the

[01:55:53] time we've done half the garden it'll

[01:55:55] say I can't believe we've left it this

[01:55:57] long that's a typical approach by the

[01:55:59] chimp and then it tries to make me

[01:56:01] finish now I might have to stop and say

[01:56:02] let's respect my back now we'll stop now

[01:56:05] so I manage my emotions by using

[01:56:08] commitment and if they don't marry I

[01:56:10] move them to one side so I don't really

[01:56:13] work with emotion to drive me to do

[01:56:15] something I think if people can use that

[01:56:17] and they use motivation that's great my

[01:56:19] experience has been it doesn't actually

[01:56:21] hold the last point I want to talk to

[01:56:23] you about is relationships we talked a

[01:56:25] little bit about it there in the context

[01:56:27] of my own relationship but one of the

[01:56:28] sentences in a path through the jungle

[01:56:30] is that

[01:56:32] um I'm paraphrasing a little bit here is

[01:56:33] that you need to have a good

[01:56:34] relationship with yourself before you

[01:56:35] try and have a relationship with someone

[01:56:36] someone else now a lot of people that I

[01:56:38] know and we talked a little bit about

[01:56:39] abusive relationships will see another

[01:56:43] party's being able to fix them in some

[01:56:45] way

[01:56:46] again this is shared degree so I'm not

[01:56:48] saying definitively but as a golden rule

[01:56:51] it's it's self-evident again if if

[01:56:53] you're in a great place then you become

[01:56:55] attractive to most people because you're

[01:56:57] exuding this positive positivity and

[01:57:00] energy and so if you can get yourself

[01:57:02] where you respect and love yourself then

[01:57:05] you've got a much better chance that

[01:57:06] people are attracted to you and think

[01:57:08] that's great however however

[01:57:11] um I'm going to give you a bizarre

[01:57:13] example many years ago I'll simplify

[01:57:15] this

[01:57:16] um I worked with a lady who had

[01:57:18] um an overpowering desire to help others

[01:57:21] and and I tried to say to her let's stop

[01:57:23] and just get yourself and she couldn't

[01:57:24] do this couldn't get in good place I

[01:57:26] have to help others and it damaged all

[01:57:29] the relationships you had because he was

[01:57:31] overpowering and eventually

[01:57:33] um I thought this is a great successes

[01:57:35] many years ago and I I went really out

[01:57:38] the box which is not recommended all

[01:57:40] right but I just got to the point I

[01:57:42] thought I can't see a way forward and I

[01:57:44] said you know what why don't I help you

[01:57:45] to pick the right person all right

[01:57:48] because I thought this is more practical

[01:57:50] Psychiatry and she laughed and said okay

[01:57:52] let's try that because she said why do I

[01:57:54] do it and she she went off to one of

[01:57:57] these like this is a long time ago where

[01:57:59] you wrought in it's not before the

[01:58:00] internet and uh she got a group of guys

[01:58:03] wrought to her and we picked one out I

[01:58:05] said try him and she was in a great

[01:58:08] place to work with me and said I must

[01:58:09] stop doing this overpowering and learn

[01:58:11] to manage myself uh and then she picked

[01:58:14] this guy an absolutely worked fantastic

[01:58:15] and I brought her in and I said I'd love

[01:58:18] to meet him before I discharge from the

[01:58:19] clinic because her steam was good then

[01:58:21] it was more tragic than that she wasn't

[01:58:23] in a great place at all because of this

[01:58:25] so she was she I met this guy and I said

[01:58:27] what's the best thing about and he said

[01:58:29] because she mothers me and again it

[01:58:32] taught me something to say you know

[01:58:34] sometimes there's a positive

[01:58:36] dysfunctional relationship and they were

[01:58:39] very happy that he wanted this mothering

[01:58:41] figure she was that both fulfilled what

[01:58:43] they wanted to do so I felt at the time

[01:58:45] was a amazing failure but looking back I

[01:58:48] think yeah they were happy so it's not

[01:58:50] for me to say what kind of relationships

[01:58:52] people want I've given that as a bizarre

[01:58:54] example the golden rule is I like people

[01:58:56] to get in a good place within themselves

[01:58:58] because otherwise what you do is you

[01:59:00] start trying to use your partner to help

[01:59:03] you to compensate for your deficiencies

[01:59:06] or you start getting very dependent on

[01:59:08] them or you start getting controlling of

[01:59:10] them because you're not actually in a

[01:59:12] good place yourself so that's the danger

[01:59:14] with that kind of situation so I'm not

[01:59:16] recommending what I thought was an

[01:59:17] amusing though it taught me something

[01:59:19] story I'm saying ideally in

[01:59:21] relationships get to respect and love

[01:59:24] yourself first and then when you've got

[01:59:26] to that position then go out and find

[01:59:28] someone because then they don't affect

[01:59:30] you as much you can enjoy the

[01:59:32] relationship rather than looking for

[01:59:34] something out of them

[01:59:37] so interesting

[01:59:38] so interesting

[01:59:40] Steve

[01:59:42] um thank you thank you so much you know

[01:59:43] I I said this to you last time we spoke

[01:59:45] but um you've helped several people that

[01:59:48] are the closest people in my life of the

[01:59:49] of the seven closest people in my life

[01:59:52] you've profoundly helped two of them

[01:59:54] with your work

[01:59:55] um one of them who we talked about last

[01:59:56] time was my business partner who's very

[01:59:57] open about his relationship with um he

[02:00:00] went through some difficulties and ended

[02:00:01] up being in his words a functional

[02:00:03] alcoholic and reading your book in his

[02:00:06] own words was the changing the turning

[02:00:08] point for him helped him to finally

[02:00:10] understand his behavior pattern and in

[02:00:12] fact he is the one my friend um Dom he's

[02:00:15] the one who put me onto your work

[02:00:16] because that book was so profound in his

[02:00:19] life and then also I've got another

[02:00:20] friend who um

[02:00:22] who's the one that I gave your book to

[02:00:24] recently who um reported to quote that

[02:00:27] book really really really helped me and

[02:00:29] I highlighted one of the sentences but

[02:00:31] she managed to get through the whole

[02:00:32] book so thank you for that because your

[02:00:34] work helps so many people

[02:00:36] um this is one of my top three favorite

[02:00:37] books of all time because it's practical

[02:00:39] because it's um because of the way that

[02:00:42] it has these images which again I'm the

[02:00:44] type of person that really loves imagery

[02:00:46] in the way that I learn but also has the

[02:00:49] robust sort of scientific knowledge from

[02:00:51] your experience and I'm obsessed with

[02:00:54] books that are centered in

[02:00:55] human behavior in the human mind that

[02:00:57] help us to understand it because as far

[02:00:59] as I'm concerned that is all there is in

[02:01:01] the world really that's everything that

[02:01:02] stands in my way it's my troubles every

[02:01:03] single day is is the human mind either

[02:01:05] my own or someone else's so it's I feel

[02:01:08] like this is a central reading for

[02:01:09] everybody

[02:01:10] um and that's why it's so great that

[02:01:11] you're doing so much work in schools as

[02:01:12] well

[02:01:14] um thank you thank you thank you and

[02:01:16] again you tell the two guys you've got

[02:01:19] on your team that have done this you

[02:01:21] know all I'm doing is presenting the

[02:01:23] Neuroscience in what I think is an

[02:01:24] accessible word that is is entertaining

[02:01:26] but quite serious uh to try and get

[02:01:29] people to get the newer science simplify

[02:01:31] because it's out there but it's so

[02:01:32] complex to me it's complex and I'd like

[02:01:34] to present in a way that's practical and

[02:01:37] that's what I've done but at the bottom

[02:01:38] line is let them Pat themselves on the

[02:01:40] back because

[02:01:42] um I I work with lots of people those

[02:01:44] who succeed have done it themselves all

[02:01:46] I am is a catalyst so again anyone who's

[02:01:49] really benefited they need to compliment

[02:01:51] themselves because it means they've

[02:01:53] worked and they've succeeded and it is a

[02:01:55] skills for those who say well I didn't I

[02:01:57] couldn't do it don't give up because uh

[02:01:59] it is a skill and if this doesn't

[02:02:00] resonate there's loads of stuff out

[02:02:02] there I'm sure you've had a lot of

[02:02:03] people in your program we're all in the

[02:02:05] same boat we're trying to help people so

[02:02:07] find something that does resonate so

[02:02:09] that we have a nation with a much better

[02:02:10] psychological Health that that would be

[02:02:13] my dream

[02:02:14] we've got a closing tradition where the

[02:02:15] last guest leaves a question for the

[02:02:17] next guest and the question that's been

[02:02:19] left for you okay

[02:02:24] if you were on your deathbed and could

[02:02:27] leave only one lesson behind what would

[02:02:31] it be

[02:02:36] I would in the context of my scientific

[02:02:40] background never

[02:02:42] forget who you are

[02:02:46] because that means you've removed the

[02:02:47] Chimp on the computer and you found

[02:02:49] yourself

[02:02:50] so never forget who you are remember the

[02:02:52] blank piece of paper

[02:02:54] because that's going to give you the

[02:02:56] self-esteem you deserve

[02:02:59] Steve thank you

[02:03:03] quick one as you might know crafted are

[02:03:06] one of the sponsors of this podcast and

[02:03:07] crafted are a jewelry brand and they

[02:03:10] make really meaningful pieces of jewelry

[02:03:13] and this piece by crafted when I put it

[02:03:15] on for me it represents courage it

[02:03:17] represents ambition it represents being

[02:03:20] calm and loving and respectful and

[02:03:22] nurturing while also being the

[02:03:24] antithesis of that seemingly the

[02:03:26] antithesis of that which is

[02:03:28] um sometimes a little bit aggressive

[02:03:30] with my goals and determined and

[02:03:31] courageous and brave the really

[02:03:33] wonderful thing about crafted jewelry is

[02:03:35] it's super affordable it looks amazing

[02:03:37] the pieces hold tremendous meaning and

[02:03:40] they are really well made

[02:03:42] hahaha

[02:03:44] [Music]