# THE ISLAMIC DILEMMA Has Officially Been Destroyed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESdNcteG2e0

[00:14] All right.
[00:16] Assalam Alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh to everybody that's watching.
[00:18] Alhamdulillah, today I am joined by the Orthodox Muslim.
[00:22] Assalam Alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, brother.
[00:25] Wa Alaykum Assalam warahmatullahi.
[00:27] Thank you for having me, how are you?
[00:28] I'm doing well.
[00:30] Alhamdulillah. How are you doing?
[00:31] I'm doing good. Ready to get into it, the Islamic dilemma.
[00:37] Indeed.
[00:38] We've talked about this intensively on my channel.
[00:42] And um yeah, just looking to cover it even a bit more.
[00:48] It's something that the Christians have unfortunately made a serious argument.
[00:54] It's really not a serious argument.
[00:56] And the only reason we cover it is because they've made it such a serious argument that we're we're just kind of forced to engage with it, but it's it's really Hold on.
[01:09] What the heck happened?
[01:14] Oh, sorry.
[01:16] My I unplugged my light.
[01:19] But yeah, so it's we're just we're forced to engage with it.
[01:22] It's stupid.
[01:22] It's dumb.
[01:23] It's absurd.
[01:24] But I mean, we're going to refute it once again, like we have been for a really long time now.
[01:32] All right.
[01:32] In sha'a Allah.
[01:33] So, the first thing that I want to ask is just for the Muslims who aren't really familiar with the Islamic dilemma, what is the Islamic dilemma?
[01:43] So, the Islamic dilemma is that the Quran confirms the Bible.
[01:51] If the Bible is true then the Quran is false because it contradicts it.
[01:59] If the Bible is false, then the Quran is also false because it confirms something that is false.
[02:06] Either way, the Quran is false.
[02:06] So, this is This is the Islamic dilemma steel manned.
[02:14] Um and it has hidden pre-assumptions, but we'll get into that later.
[02:20] That's simply what the Islamic dilemma is.
[02:26] All right.
[02:26] Be it in the light of Allah.
[02:27] So, why do you think the Islamic dilemma has become one of, if not the most popular argument against Islam within the past couple of years?
[02:40] Uh well, it's been around for a long time.
[02:42] Why it became popular, uh simply because they they had a campaign last year to push it heavy.
[02:54] So, they were all pushing it heavy and they all decided to make videos about it and uh go from panel to panel from Muslim die to another.
[03:07] And with the videos coming out, um it just became popular simply because
[03:14] some people are not were not able to to deal with the Islamic dilemma properly because they misunderstand the hidden pre-assumptions that come with it.
[03:23] And so, it becomes attractive to a Christian audience because of its simplicity.
[03:30] Um that is that it's, you know, that your Quran confirms my Bible.
[03:35] I don't have to We don't have to talk about uh the transmission of the text.
[03:42] We don't have to talk about the contradictions of the text because your Quran confirms my Bible.
[03:48] So, it's kind of a uh a get out of jail free card.
[03:50] And it's uh a very attractive way to argue with the Muslim uh, in the eyes of the Christian audience.
[03:58] Unfortunately, it doesn't work.
[04:00] It's an absurd argument.
[04:04] Um, it has no precedence in academia.
[04:07] And like I said, it's hidden it has hidden pre-assumptions.
[04:09] So, that's I think that's why it became popular.
[04:13] All right, so you you mentioned hidden
[04:15] pre-assumptions within the Islamic dilemma.
[04:16] So, can you give us an example of a hidden pre-assumption or the hidden pre-assumptions within this argument?
[04:25] Yeah, so it rests on the pre-assumption that the confirmation is an absolute and total confirmation, which must be substantiated.
[04:38] So, when they say, "Well, the Quran confirms the Bible."
[04:39] We would actually agree.
[04:43] Well, not the Bible, but the Torah it's more specifically the Torah and the Gospel.
[04:47] The Quran confirms the Torah and the Gospel.
[04:48] We agree.
[04:50] It's not controversial.
[04:51] Says it all over the Quran.
[04:52] But, what does that mean?
[04:54] Right?
[04:57] So, the assumption is the confirmation is a total and absolute confirmation of every single uh, letter and every single uh, book in in their canon.
[05:06] And it's it's ran differently.
[05:08] Sometimes they would concede that it's not referring to every single book.
[05:10] Sometimes they say, "Oh, it's just the Torah and the Gospel."
[05:12] Different ways that they approach it.
[05:14] But, it assumes a
[05:17] Total and absolute confirmation.
[05:20] Now, we could demonstrate from the Quran that this is not the case.
[05:25] Uh, according to the Quran, uh, this is something we call conscious editing or when the author is engaging with the text polemically, where the author seems to Well, you know, the author is Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala, but you know, looking at it from the outside, where the author seems to be engaging polemically with these biblical traditions.
[05:51] So, there is awareness of these biblical traditions, that can't be denied.
[05:55] I mean, not not even academics deny that.
[05:58] The Quran knows what the text says.
[05:59] And knowing what the text says, the Quran directly chooses to consciously and intentionally go against it and consciously edit it.
[06:09] So, when it comes to the story of Moses or comes to the story of Sodom and and so on and so forth, the Quran acknowledges that this is what Christians say, this is what the text
[06:19] says for them,
[06:21] but the Quran is disagreeing.
[06:22] It's wrong.
[06:24] So, uh a good example would be
[06:27] I think the best example is uh when
[06:29] Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is retelling
[06:31] the story of Moses,
[06:33] and the story parallels the story in
[06:36] Exodus almost identically.
[06:38] So, he tells him, "Moses, pick up the staff."
[06:40] He picks it up.
[06:42] Uh Moses, throw the staff.
[06:44] He throws it, it turns into a snake.
[06:46] He tells him, "Moses, pick it back up."
[06:48] It turns back into a staff.
[06:50] Then he tells him, "Moses, put your hand under your cloak."
[06:52] Moses does that.
[06:55] So, up until here, the Quran and the Exodus account are almost identical.
[06:58] And then Moses takes out his hand, but in the Quran, it says by that I mean so in other words,
[07:03] that his hand comes out white, but not leprous, without leprosy, without any defect.
[07:12] The Torah says that his hand came out white and leprous.
[07:15] It had a defect.
[07:18] So, it's not that the Quran is saying,
[07:19] Well, his hand came out white.
[07:21] and completely ignores or doesn't mention the leprosy.
[07:26] It's that the Quran says it is not defected.
[07:30] It is not leprous.
[07:32] Which means that there must have been a claim out there that says it's leprous.
[07:36] Well, we know where that comes from.
[07:37] It comes from Exodus.
[07:39] That's the most parsimonious explanation.
[07:40] Exodus says that his hand was leprous.
[07:44] The Quran knows that and the Quran disagrees.
[07:48] Right?
[07:48] And there is many many many other examples, but this is the most straightforward and and easiest one.
[07:54] The Quran engages systematically with the Torah and the Gospel and edits the Torah and the Gospel in a way that it sees fit.
[08:03] Another example would be the systematic editing of um the major sins that the prophets commit.
[08:10] I mean, nobody can deny that the Quran systematically has a view uh of a level of infallibility when it comes to the messengers.
[08:19] That is, they don't commit major sins.
[08:22] And when we see that the Quran narrates a prophet's story every time it parallels the biblical tradition, but then you'd find that the Quran doesn't mention the major sin that a certain prophet does, like David.
[08:40] For example.
[08:40] Or Solomon.
[08:42] Or Moses.
[08:42] Or Zachariah.
[08:46] It is consciously editing their major sins.
[08:49] In the Gospel of Luke, Zachariah is punished by God because Zachariah disbelieves.
[08:55] In the Quran, it's the opposite.
[08:58] Uh in the in in the Book of Kings, Solomon disbelieves and apostates.
[09:02] You find that in apocryphal literature as well, where Solomon practices magic.
[09:07] The Quran says that Solomon did not disbelieve.
[09:12] He didn't commit He didn't do magic.
[09:14] You find Moses when he's uh in the Book of Exodus, Moses
[09:20] uh is uh arguing back and forth with God.
[09:22] He's not uh ob- submissive to God's command.
[09:25] In the Quran, Moses has an opposite attitude.
[09:28] He's submissive to God's command.
[09:32] And so on and so on and so forth.
[09:34] The Quran has a systematic view.
[09:36] Meaning, it is conscious of what the biblical tradition says directly disagrees with it.
[09:42] So then, if this is the case, then the Islamic dilemma doesn't follow because the Islamic dilemma necessitates that the Quran is confirming everything the Torah and the Gospel say.
[09:53] Well, the Quran doesn't confirm everything the Torah and the Gospel say, rather it confirms general themes and motifs found in the Torah and the Gospel.
[10:04] All right.
[10:07] So, obviously, amongst the apologetic scene, there are a lot of people that engage with the Islamic dilemma on a daily basis.
[10:12] So, what do you think are the biggest mistakes that people make when they take a look at the
[10:20] Islamic dilemma or when they engage with it?
[10:24] From the Muslim side?
[10:27] Uh yes, specifically from the Muslim side.
[10:30] Yeah, so I've I've pointed this out um a few times on my channel whenever I get the chance.
[10:38] When Muslims try to engage this uh line of argumentation, what they get caught up in, and this is both Muslims and Christians, what they get caught up in is trying to show some unambiguous passage that says, "I am confirming everything in the Torah."
[11:00] Or I am disagreeing here, or it's texturally corrupted.
[11:06] Now, there are some passages that imply textural corruption without a shadow of a doubt.
[11:11] Like chapter 2 verse 79, other passages that could be interpreted that way.
[11:16] You had a calima maldehi.
[11:19] That could certainly imply, according to
[11:24] some interpretations, textural corruption.
[11:25] The problem is it's not explicit enough.
[11:29] And it's not meant to be explicit enough anyway.
[11:33] So, then Muslims start going to these passages, the Christian's going to say, "Well, look, this tafsir says, 'Oh, this is talking about oral corruption.'"
[11:39] Then the Muslim brings another tafsir, "Oh, this is talking about textual corruption. This scholar said, that scholar said."
[11:46] Well, all this proves is that these verses have a variety of interpretation.
[11:53] So, you're not going to get anywhere with quoting this exegesis or that exegesis because this is an issue of that which, you know, there's there's definitely disagreement.
[12:06] Now, later scholars seems to be unanimous seem to be unanimous in what these passages mean.
[12:12] Earlier scholars were not so unanimous.
[12:15] Now, this view does exist of textual corruption early on.
[12:17] It's attested in even Syriac Christian documents
[12:22] where Muslims are claiming textual corruption.
[12:25] Um so, this is a view attested within 20 years of the prophet's uh life.
[12:33] but a more a a a better way to deal with this is to show that like I said, the Quran engages with the Torah and the Gospel in a way where the author doesn't think it's all preserved, inspired, and the uncorrupted word of God.
[12:50] And I I gave the examples, right?
[12:55] So, if we are to show that the Quranic author is intentionally changing or editing these texts, then we don't need to go to this passage or that ambiguous passage.
[13:08] It becomes clear enough with how the Quran engages with the text.
[13:13] So, all we have to show is one conscious edit.
[13:15] That's all that all we need.
[13:17] We show one conscious edit, that's it.
[13:20] The the Islamic dilemma falls apart.
[13:23] Okay?
[13:25] Now, there's other reasons why the Islamic dilemma falls apart.
[13:27] And something that uh that I was thinking about on my own is for example, we have early knowledgeable people of the book accept Islam like Abdullah ibn Salam uh Salman al-Farsi.
[13:42] Abdullah ibn Salam was a chief rabbi of the Jews in Medina.
[13:50] Uh Salman al-Farsi was a Christian.
[13:52] He was knowledgeable in the scripture.
[13:55] We [clears throat] have uh people from the later generations like uh Ka'b al-Ahbar.
[14:00] These people well, it wasn't later.
[14:02] Ka'b al-Ahbar lived in the time of the Sahaba.
[14:05] Um these people were knowledgeable in the Torah.
[14:11] You would think that if they if the if the prophet was telling them that he's confirming the Torah absolutely that this is a no-brainer that the first thing would come to mind for from a
[14:24] rabbi like Abdullah ibn Salam is but
[14:27] wait, why does the Quran narrate the
[14:30] story of the prophet this way when the
[14:31] Torah narrates in a different way?
[14:34] That's why it's a no-brainer.
[14:34] It's it's
[14:36] it's intuitive.
[14:36] It comes to mind right
[14:38] away.
[14:38] Does You don't even need to be a
[14:39] rabbi.
[14:41] Right?
[14:41] Like any Jew would That would be
[14:43] the first thing that comes to mind, but
[14:45] they don't do that.
[14:46] Rather, they seem to
[14:49] understand that
[14:50] um
[14:51] the the Quran has precedence in the
[14:53] stories that it tells over the Torah.
[14:57] So, the Torah can have things that are
[14:59] wrong in it.
[15:00] And this is a view that actually is not
[15:04] uh new with the Quran.
[15:07] that finds continuity with ancient Jews
[15:11] who lived even before Jesus.
[15:11] Uh
[15:13] Epiphanius
[15:15] um
[15:16] uh
[15:16] [clears throat] tells us in his book the Panarion.
[15:19] Uh he lived He's a church father lived
[15:21] in the 4th century.
[15:23] Epiphanius writes a book of refuting a
[15:26] bunch of heresies.
[15:27] He has a bunch of them.
[15:28] And in one chapter, he speaks about a group called the Nazareans.
[15:32] Not to be confused with the Nazarenes.
[15:35] The Nazarenes came later.
[15:37] They're Jesus followers.
[15:39] The Nazareans were a group of Jews who lived before Jesus,
[15:43] who believed in the Torah, practiced the Torah, but thought that the Torah was corrupted.
[15:50] Then you have the Jews after Jesus, like the um the Ebionites in the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies and the Recognitions.
[16:01] Those Jews believed in the Torah.
[16:03] They thought the Torah was authoritative.
[16:04] They quoted the Torah.
[16:06] But they thought it was still corrupted.
[16:08] They thought it was still corrupt.
[16:09] So, although it was authoritative, they still believed it was corrupted.
[16:14] Both can be true at the same time.
[16:16] A text can be authoritative.
[16:18] You could use it for evidence, but it could also be corrupted.
[16:20] And this is a view they held.
[16:22] This is a view that exists even before Jesus ever lived walked the earth.
[16:27] So, the Quran seems to be in continuity with that view.
[16:30] There's no issue here.
[16:32] And this seems to be recognized by the early communities, by the companions.
[16:37] So, these are These are reasons why I think that the Islamic dilemma doesn't work.
[16:45] All right.
[16:45] Um so, let's say somebody is in a discourse with a Christian or just uh an individual who wants to discuss the Islamic dilemma.
[16:56] What do you think the first thing a Muslim should do when responding to this argument?
[17:07] Well, uh so I I don't think the Islamic dilemma is that serious of an argument to give it that much thought anyway.
[17:16] I think uh, a Muslim needs to, before engaging in this in this argument, a Muslim needs to first understand what the Quran says about the Torah and the
[17:27] Gospel, and what the proof texts um, for it are, uh, which verses, um, and what the historical context is, how did the early generations understand it, and so on and so forth.
[17:41] Uh, but if somebody wants to engage with the with a Christian, not just on this topic, but on any topic, they need to be read up.
[17:50] It's It's not the the argument is strong, is that if if a Christian or any kafir brought a weak argument that somebody is hasn't heard of before, was not read up on, then it's obviously not going to go too well for them.
[18:03] So, uh, just just don't speak without knowledge, and if you feel like you're not equipped, then don't even put yourself in that position.
[18:13] Don't even speak about these things to begin with.
[18:18] Absolutely. Uh, brief pause.
[18:20] Everybody that's on the TikTok, all of you come to the YouTube right now if you want to hear the rest, cuz when we start
[18:28] bringing up interlocutors, Christians, or whatever it may be, it's going to be on the YouTube, not TikTok.
[18:34] So, everybody come over to the, uh, to the YouTube.
[18:35] Inshallah Ta'ala, I'm going to go ahead and end the live on TikTok.
[18:42] All right.
[18:45] So, does the Quran, and this is, uh, a question on my part, does the Quran confirming the previous scriptures necessarily mean that the Quran is saying that every single manuscript in circulation of the Old and New Testament is preserved?
[19:05] Okay, hold on.
[19:05] Uh, I think you know the answer.
[19:07] I think everybody knows the answer to that.
[19:10] So, no, uh, of course not.
[19:12] Uh, as a matter of fact, not even Christians think that every manuscript is preserved.
[19:18] I mean, there's uh as of recent estimations amongst the manuscript differences between the New Testament alone, there's half a million differences.
[19:26] 500,000
[19:31] variants amongst the uh manuscripts of the New Testament.
[19:37] Uh so we have a an To be fair, most of them are spelling mistakes, but a lot of them are mistakes that make a difference in the world.
[19:48] A lot of them are um uh scribes intentionally editing the text, scribes adding their theology into the text.
[19:54] Uh when it comes to the Old Testament, we have so many different recensions of the Old Testament.
[19:58] We have the Greek uh Septuagint recension, which dates back to the year 250, translated by 70 Jewish elders from the Hebrew.
[20:08] We have the Masoretic text, which uh comes after Islam, as a matter of fact, which the Jews view as authoritative.
[20:15] We have the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Samaritan Torah, which has massive differences between uh the Masoretic and the Septuagint.
[20:23] Uh we have the Dead Sea Scroll recension, which also differs massively from the rest of the recensions.
[20:30] So, uh I'm not even Christians believe the
[20:33] manuscripts are preserved, let alone the
[20:35] Quran or Muslims. So, this is absurd to
[20:38] say.
[20:40] I agree. So,
[20:41] [clears throat]
[20:41] I want to go back to something that you
[20:44] mentioned when you were talking about
[20:45] bringing unambiguous verses that display
[20:49] tahrif or uh corruption of the previous
[20:53] scriptures. So, I want to know when the
[20:56] scholars, especially classical scholars,
[20:58] speak about tahrif or corruption, what
[21:01] do they mean by this? Do they mean
[21:03] textual corruption? Do they mean
[21:05] corruption of interpretation? or is it
[21:06] both?
[21:09] So,
[21:11] they mean both.
[21:12] But, to be fair,
[21:14] the earlier you go,
[21:18] the more verses are interpreted to be
[21:21] about oral corruption.
[21:26] They're also interpreted to be about
[21:27] textual corruption. Don't get me wrong.
[21:30] From the earliest generation,
[21:32] right?
[21:33] But, it seems that
[21:36] the earliest generations believed that
[21:38] although the Torah was corrupted in some
[21:40] way,
[21:41] the corruption was not that major,
[21:45] and that it is still was authoritative
[21:47] in some way.
[21:48] Right?
[21:49] Now, as time went by,
[21:52] as generations went by, that view
[21:54] started changing,
[21:56] where
[21:58] now the Torah and the Gospel basically
[22:00] mean nothing.
[22:02] So, you know, that comes with the likes
[22:05] of Ibn Hazm and stuff, where
[22:08] the Torah and the Gospel just become
[22:09] kind of useless books that we have no
[22:11] need for.
[22:14] So, textual corruption has always been
[22:15] there. The scholars have always
[22:17] understood it.
[22:19] Um
[22:20] but there's definitely a significant
[22:23] view
[22:24] of how a Muslim ought to see
[22:27] the Torah and the Gospel.
[22:28] Uh that that that definitely went
[22:31] through
[22:32] development, you could say.
[22:36] Absolutely. [clears throat] So, earlier
[22:37] you mentioned uh
[22:39] the Islamic dilemma having no basis in
[22:42] academia or within scholarship. So, from
[22:46] a historical lens,
[22:48] would you say that Muslim scholars and
[22:51] early Muslim scholars all understand
[22:55] what the Islamic dilemma is or what
[22:57] they're trying to assert today?
[23:02] Sorry, say that one more time.
[23:04] Yeah, so from a historical lens like
[23:06] early Muslim scholars and whatnot, um
[23:09] the further we go back, do they or would
[23:11] you say that they acknowledge the
[23:14] Islamic dilemma quote unquote with
[23:15] regards to confirmation of the previous
[23:18] scriptures in the same exact way that
[23:19] Christians try to present it?
[23:22] Islamic scholars?
[23:24] Or Muslim scholars, I guess you could
[23:25] say.
[23:26] No.
[23:27] No. No, there's no there's no dilemma.
[23:29] Muslims Muslims have always understood
[23:32] what the Quran is saying, that the the
[23:34] Torah and the Gospel are textually
[23:35] corrupted. There is some level of
[23:38] confirmation. Some scholars held a high
[23:40] view. Some scholars said most of it is
[23:42] corrupted. Some of it is said a a lot of
[23:44] it is not, but everybody knew the Torah
[23:47] and the Gospel's corrupted from the
[23:48] beginning of Islam.
[23:50] Till now. The only difference is that
[23:53] like I mentioned, their view of the
[23:55] Torah and the Gospel and how
[23:57] authoritative they are.
[23:58] Right, so that change. It went from
[24:00] being held in a in a in a high station,
[24:04] you could say,
[24:06] uh to now kind of meaning nothing
[24:09] amongst Islamic scholarship today. It's
[24:11] just
[24:12] uh
[24:13] a corrupted text. Can't rely upon it for
[24:16] anything.
[24:17] And so on and so forth.
[24:20] All right, I'm going to like break it
[24:21] down a little bit more. So the Islamic
[24:23] dilemma hinges upon the confirmation of
[24:25] the Torah and the Injil. So when we say
[24:29] Injil, what does the Quran actually mean
[24:32] by the Injil? Is it talking about like
[24:35] the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke,
[24:36] and John today, or is it talking about
[24:38] something different?
[24:40] Oh, that's a good question.
[24:42] So uh
[24:43] many people
[24:44] uh would disagree with my view.
[24:47] Um I think most people agree with it,
[24:51] but there is disagreement. No problem.
[24:53] That's fine. It doesn't make the Islamic
[24:55] dilemma a better argument or not. this
[24:57] is just an internal
[24:58] uh disagreement, it's a personal view
[25:01] you can hold.
[25:02] But,
[25:03] uh if you see when the Quran engages
[25:06] with what Jesus said or what the Gospel
[25:08] is,
[25:09] or whenever Allah subhana wa ta'ala
[25:11] speaks about the Gospel in context,
[25:13] it always seems to be sayings and
[25:16] parables of Jesus.
[25:19] Okay? It's never biographical material.
[25:22] It's never anything like that.
[25:25] Whenever the Quran engages with Gospel
[25:27] or talks about Gospel,
[25:29] it always parallels
[25:32] um parables or sayings of Christ.
[25:36] Which seems to mean that the Quran sees
[25:40] the Gospel as the sayings, the deeds, or
[25:45] the sayings, the prophecies
[25:47] uh of Jesus. And those can be found in
[25:51] Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
[25:53] Um
[25:55] Uh why? Because this is what the
[25:57] Christians in the 7th century, that the
[26:00] Allah subhana wa ta'ala is responding
[26:01] to, would have been reading.
[26:03] As far as we know, this was the
[26:05] established
[26:07] um
[26:08] I wouldn't say canon, but the got these
[26:10] were the Gospels authoritative about
[26:13] Jesus that were established at the time.
[26:15] So, we have no reason to think
[26:17] maybe they were reading something else.
[26:18] And perhaps they were reading other
[26:21] things, but we have no reason or
[26:23] evidence to conclude that as far as I
[26:25] know.
[26:26] So, you'll find uh the Gospel,
[26:29] uh the sayings of Jesus, the prophecies,
[26:33] the
[26:34] the parables [clears throat] in Matthew,
[26:35] Mark, Luke, and John. And my friend Dean
[26:39] responds is actually writing a book on
[26:41] this, is almost published, showing
[26:45] be it's a project where
[26:47] he gives his methodology,
[26:50] then he shows
[26:51] he goes through each gospel and he shows
[26:54] the level of compatibility with Islam.
[26:59] And
[27:00] what he found is that
[27:03] the gospels
[27:05] especially Matthew
[27:07] and Luke have over a 90% compatib-
[27:11] compatibility with Islam.
[27:13] People A lot of people don't realize
[27:15] there's only a few sayings of Jesus in
[27:17] the gospels that don't align with Islam.
[27:20] There's only a couple.
[27:22] Most sayings of Jesus in the gospel have
[27:24] Islamic precedents, have intertextuality
[27:27] with the Quran, intertextuality with the
[27:29] Hadith,
[27:30] or a parallel of idea,
[27:32] right? So, yeah, we did most of the
[27:35] things that I'm not saying that most of
[27:37] the things in the in in the gospels are
[27:39] authentic, certainly not. We could I
[27:41] mean that we can't That's
[27:43] wouldn't be true if we said that.
[27:46] But
[27:47] is it compatible? Well, most of it is.
[27:50] Now, whether it's authentic or not is a
[27:52] different question. We have to use the
[27:54] proper historical rigorous criteria for
[27:57] that
[27:58] uh to establish whether the historical
[28:01] Jesus said something or did something.
[28:04] But when it comes to what the gospels
[28:05] say,
[28:06] yeah, most of it is is compatible. Over
[28:09] 90% of it is compatible with uh the
[28:13] words of Christ in there.
[28:17] All right, so obviously Christians when
[28:20] they see Injil, they immediately think
[28:22] that this is talking about the entirety
[28:25] of the New Testament or the four gospels
[28:27] to them according to their belief. So,
[28:30] from my perspective, this automatically
[28:32] assumes that the New Testament is a
[28:35] single text. So, you were mentioning
[28:38] scholarship earlier, so I want to know
[28:39] your take on this. From a textual
[28:41] critical standpoint,
[28:43] how would we go about discussing whether
[28:47] or not the New Testament is a text which
[28:49] is preserved or uniform and so on.
[28:54] I mean
[28:55] uh Christian scholars do that for us. Um
[28:59] critical scholars do that for us. I mean
[29:01] nobody disagrees
[29:03] that the
[29:05] uh that the New Testament has gone
[29:06] through corruption. Has uh gone through
[29:10] uh s- you know, scribal corruption. Uh a
[29:13] good book to read would be The Orthodox
[29:15] Corruption of Scripture by
[29:17] Bart Ehrman.
[29:19] Um Misquoting Jesus,
[29:22] uh so on and so forth. These are
[29:24] introductory books. They're good enough
[29:26] because they're written for a lay
[29:28] audience, so they're not uh written for
[29:30] other scholars to read.
[29:31] And they're easy to understand. Uh I can
[29:35] give you a quick example off the top of
[29:37] my head. I was speaking about this last
[29:38] night.
[29:39] Is that for example, if you go to the
[29:41] Gospel of Luke,
[29:43] uh the author of Luke also wrote Acts.
[29:46] So, both Acts and Luke have the same
[29:48] author. Acts is a continuation of the
[29:51] Gospel. So, the Gospel of Luke is about
[29:54] Jesus and his life.
[29:55] Acts is a continuation what happened
[29:57] after Jesus ascended with the apostles
[29:59] in Jerusalem and the preaching of the
[30:01] gospel message to the Jews and to
[30:03] Gentiles
[30:04] and Paul coming onto the scene.
[30:06] Anyway, if you compare
[30:08] uh Matthew's view of Jesus' death
[30:12] for sins and Mark's view and John's view
[30:16] and Paul's view,
[30:19] you will see that they are heavily in
[30:22] odds with Luke's view
[30:24] because we know Luke depends on Mark, so
[30:27] Luke is using Mark as a source.
[30:30] And every time Mar- Je- Mark has Jesus
[30:33] say, "I'm going to die for your sins."
[30:38] Luke is uncomfortable with that and he
[30:40] admits it and edits it out.
[30:42] As a matter of fact,
[30:45] in the ending of Luke where Jesus is
[30:47] having the um the
[30:50] uh the Passover meal with the apostles,
[30:53] and he says, "This is my body which is
[30:56] broken for you,
[30:57] and this is my blood which is poured out
[31:00] for you."
[31:02] That's what it says in Mark. It also
[31:04] says that in in Paul.
[31:07] But in Luke, he completely edits that
[31:09] out.
[31:10] Now, a lot of people will go and check
[31:12] Luke and they'll find it there and this
[31:14] Orthodox Muslim, it's there.
[31:16] But actually, according to the best
[31:18] manuscripts and the early manuscripts of
[31:20] Luke, it's not there.
[31:22] So, you can see that scribes felt
[31:24] uncomfortable with Luke not having this
[31:26] idea of Jesus dying for us in our place,
[31:32] right? Rather, Luke's view Luke-Acts has
[31:36] Jesus as a righteous Messiah. He becomes
[31:40] the son of God
[31:41] uh at his baptism.
[31:44] And he dies a gruesome and an unjust,
[31:48] unfair death.
[31:50] And because he died a gruesome, unjust,
[31:53] unfair death as a righteous, obedient
[31:56] man,
[31:57] if we are to believe in him,
[32:00] and his life will cause us to repent and
[32:03] then repent and ask God for forgiveness,
[32:05] God will forgive us. So, that's why if
[32:08] you go open up Acts or Luke, the message
[32:11] of Jesus is repent and God will forgive
[32:16] your sins.
[32:18] Repentance will be preached in the name
[32:20] of Jesus for sins. If you go look at the
[32:23] uh at Peter's preaching to the Jews,
[32:26] it doesn't sound like anything that
[32:29] Christians teach today or that Paul
[32:31] says. Rather, Peter's main message is
[32:34] that Jesus was a righteous man who was
[32:37] unjustly punished by the by the Jews.
[32:42] And
[32:43] if we believe that he was God's Messiah
[32:46] and repent, God will forgive us.
[32:49] This is this is clear. So, not only is
[32:51] the Quran consciously editing the
[32:52] Gospels, Luke is consciously editing the
[32:55] Gospels. Luke is doing conscious edits
[32:58] of Mark.
[32:59] So, this was a it's just a simple
[33:01] example out of thousands where scribes
[33:05] made
[33:07] additions to manuscripts to support a
[33:10] particular view that they had which
[33:12] doesn't exist in the original text.
[33:16] All right. I want to bring it back to
[33:18] the Islamic dilemma and when we were
[33:20] talking about, I guess you could say,
[33:22] false assumptions that are made within
[33:24] the Islamic dilemma. So, there are
[33:26] obviously verses that Christians bring
[33:28] up when they try to argue the Islamic
[33:30] dilemma. Can you give us an example of
[33:33] some verses that are both misunderstood
[33:36] to Christians and to Muslims?
[33:40] Yes, it's it's pretty much
[33:43] every verse that they use. So, all the
[33:45] verses that say musaddiqan lima ma'akum
[33:49] confirming that which is with you.
[33:51] All the verses that cuz there's a bunch
[33:53] of verses that say the same thing.
[33:55] Confirming that would that which is with
[33:56] them, confirming what came before it,
[33:59] confirming that which is with you. All
[34:01] of these passages
[34:04] they're misunderstood because there's a
[34:06] hidden presumption that the confirming
[34:08] what is with you or what is with them is
[34:10] an absolute and total confirmation. So,
[34:14] those are heavily misunderstood.
[34:17] Then there is the passages where
[34:20] atukminuna bibad al-kitabi watakfuruna
[34:22] bibad. Do you believe in some of the
[34:24] book and disbelieve in some? So, they
[34:26] say, "Oh, well, you know, you can't pick
[34:28] or choose. Allah tells you you can't
[34:29] pick or choose. The whole Torah is
[34:31] true." That's not what the verse is
[34:33] saying. The verse is uh pointing out
[34:36] Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is pointing out
[34:37] the hypocrisy of the Jews. If you read
[34:39] the context, the context is
[34:43] the Jews would
[34:45] uh kill each other, but then they
[34:47] wouldn't ransom
[34:49] uh they would kill each other, but then
[34:50] when one of them would be held hostage,
[34:52] they would go and try to ransom him.
[34:55] Okay?
[34:56] So, then Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and
[34:57] they claim to follow the laws of God and
[34:59] they're the chosen people and they have
[35:00] the Torah and so on and so forth. So,
[35:02] Allah is pointing out their hypocrisy.
[35:04] You guys believe in
[35:06] this is the Torah from God and all the
[35:07] laws, but you believe in some of it, you
[35:10] apply some of it, and you disbelieve in
[35:12] the in the rest. So, he's pointing out
[35:14] the hypocrisy. It's not saying that you
[35:16] have to you as a Muslim, you have to
[35:18] accept the Torah wholesale. It's not
[35:19] saying that. The context of the
[35:21] difference is the Jews believe the whole
[35:24] thing is from God,
[35:26] but then still believe in some and
[35:27] disbelieve in some.
[35:29] The Muslims don't believe the whole
[35:31] thing is from God.
[35:32] [snorts]
[35:33] So, we are obligated to believe in the
[35:36] sum that is from God and reject that
[35:38] which is not from God, which chapter
[35:40] 2:79
[35:42] chapter 2:79 says.
[35:44] He says, "Woe to those who write the
[35:45] book with their own hand and say this is
[35:46] from Allah."
[35:49] Woe to those who write the book with
[35:50] their own hand and say this is from
[35:52] Allah so they could profit from it.
[35:55] Woe to what they have written with their
[35:57] hands.
[35:58] Right? Allah tells you there the Jews
[36:01] wrote things and said it is from God.
[36:04] Are you telling me that that verse that
[36:05] says you believe in some and disbelieve
[36:07] in some
[36:09] is telling us to believe in the parts
[36:11] that the Jews wrote with their own
[36:12] hands? Oh, of course not. That'd be
[36:13] ridiculous to say that.
[36:16] So, that's misunderstood. Then you have
[36:18] chapter 4
[36:20] uh verses 40 to and
[36:22] you know, up until the end of the
[36:24] context
[36:25] where Allah says
[36:27] uh well, you have the incident of
[36:31] the Jews
[36:33] coming to the prophet asking for
[36:34] judgment."
[36:36] So,
[36:37] Allah
[36:38] says, "And how do they come to you for
[36:40] judgment while they have the Torah? In
[36:42] it is the
[36:47] So, how do they come to you when they
[36:48] have the Torah and it is the judgment of
[36:50] Allah? This is also pointing out their
[36:52] hypocrisy, meaning
[36:53] how do they come to you, oh prophet,
[36:56] while they have the Torah? They say it
[36:58] is everything is perfect in it. They
[37:00] disbelieve in you. They say you're a
[37:02] false prophet. You're a liar.
[37:04] Yet they come to you for judgment?
[37:08] Yet they come to you and want your
[37:10] judgment so they could ignore the
[37:13] judgment of the Torah for a more lenient
[37:15] judgment from you? He's pointing out the
[37:17] hypocrisy.
[37:19] Right?
[37:20] And then you have the rest of the
[37:23] context which says, "Inna anzalna
[37:24] tawrat."
[37:26] Was it anzalna or nazalna?
[37:28] Sorry, I forgot.
[37:30] Basically,
[37:31] "We have revealed the Torah. In it there
[37:34] is guidance and light.
[37:41] The
[37:43] the prophets who have submitted
[37:45] themselves to Allah use the Torah that
[37:48] was revealed to judge those who are Jews
[37:51] and also the rabbis and the monks use it
[37:55] to judge those who are Jews." Right? And
[37:58] so they say, "Oh, well, look, you have a
[38:01] line of prophets and they all use the
[38:05] Torah to judge."
[38:07] Well, when was it exactly corrupted?
[38:09] Well, this is ridiculous because
[38:12] the last
[38:15] book of the Old Testament is Malachi.
[38:18] Now, that's written just probably
[38:20] shortly after the Babylonian exile. The
[38:23] Torah that is in possession today, the
[38:27] Pentateuch, also comes from that time
[38:29] period.
[38:31] Okay? So, yes, the prophets used it to
[38:34] judge.
[38:36] And
[38:37] um
[38:38] this you
[38:40] you think prophecy ends for the Jews,
[38:42] they think prophecy ends with Malachi.
[38:45] So, it's just it's right on time. That's
[38:47] this Pentateuch comes after the
[38:49] Babylonian exile, which is after they
[38:52] think prophecy sealed anyway. Okay? For
[38:55] the for the Christians, they believe and
[38:57] Isa Alayhis Salam, we also believe in
[38:59] Isa Alayhis Salam. It's not necessitated
[39:01] that Jesus must have in his time um an
[39:05] unpreserved Torah to confirm it or to
[39:08] know the laws that God revealed.
[39:11] So, it's not necessitated. So, yes,
[39:13] Jesus was taught the laws, the Torah and
[39:16] its application and its wisdom by God.
[39:19] And it's not necessitated that the text
[39:21] itself is fully preserved in his time.
[39:25] Just like it's not necessitated for the
[39:26] text to be fully preserved in the in the
[39:28] Prophet Muhammad's time. Yet, he
[39:30] confirms it. Yet, he uses it to judge.
[39:33] When he goes to the Jews, he says, "Who
[39:36] among you is most knowledgeable in the
[39:37] Torah?"
[39:38] He says, "Okay, go bring them. What does
[39:40] the Torah say about this ruling?" Okay,
[39:44] then they tried to hide it with their
[39:45] hand. Abdullah ibn Salam says, "Remove
[39:48] your hand." And he says the verse of
[39:49] stoning there.
[39:51] So, yes, although it is not preserved,
[39:53] it is corrupted to a certain extent,
[39:56] it's still authoritative.
[39:58] It's still authoritative in some way.
[40:00] Okay?
[40:01] Uh so, this is what Allah says. He says,
[40:03] uh to judge by the Torah and by the
[40:05] Gospel. They also misunderstand that to
[40:07] think that
[40:08] um this must mean the Quran is false
[40:11] because there's things in the Torah and
[40:12] the Gospel that contradicts uh the
[40:14] Quran. Well, judging by the Torah and
[40:16] the Gospel, it would necessitate that
[40:19] you find the discrepancies in the Torah
[40:21] and the Gospel, which lead you to Islam.
[40:24] So, actually, when I become a Muslim,
[40:26] I'm judging by the Torah and the Gospel.
[40:28] Because when I read the Torah, it tells
[40:30] me that there's a Gentile prophet coming
[40:32] at the end of times who will usher in
[40:34] God's kingdom.
[40:36] So, the Torah tells me to become a
[40:37] Muslim, the Gospel tells me to become a
[40:39] Muslim.
[40:40] So, if the if the people of the book
[40:42] judge by the Torah and the Gospel,
[40:44] they will become Muslim. And this is
[40:46] exactly what they did. Abdullah ibn
[40:47] Salam judged by the Torah and the
[40:49] Gospel. How did he do that? Well, he
[40:52] came to the prophet and he asked him
[40:54] some questions. He told him, "I'm going
[40:56] to give you some questions that nobody
[40:58] can answer except a prophet."
[41:01] Why? Because he knew the Prophet
[41:02] Muhammad was not a rabbi, he wasn't a
[41:04] Torah scholar.
[41:06] He was just an Arab Gentile.
[41:09] But, Abdullah ibn Salam is a Torah
[41:11] scholar.
[41:12] So, he's saying, "If you know this, you
[41:15] are you must be a prophet." So, what did
[41:17] he do? He judged by the Torah.
[41:21] He judged the prophet by the Torah.
[41:24] And when the prophet gave the answers,
[41:26] he gave his shahada. He says, "Ashhadu
[41:28] an la ilaha illallah wa ashhadu anna
[41:30] Muhammadan rasulullah."
[41:31] Salman al-Farsi judged by the Torah.
[41:35] When he looked at the prophet's shoulder
[41:37] and he found the mark of prophethood,
[41:39] that was judging by the Torah cuz he
[41:41] found that in the Torah. So, when he
[41:43] judged by the Torah, he became a Muslim.
[41:46] So, if we judge by the Torah and the
[41:48] Gospel, we will become Muslims. Any
[41:51] honest person will become a Muslim.
[41:56] All right, you actually mentioned a
[41:57] beautiful point. I wanted to ask a
[41:59] question pertaining to it as well. So,
[42:01] if we judge by the Torah or if we judge
[42:03] by the previous scriptures, we are going
[42:06] to accept that there is going to be a
[42:08] Gentile prophet that's going to be sent
[42:09] for mankind. And obviously, the Quran
[42:12] claims this in Sura 7:157 that we're
[42:14] going to find the description of the
[42:16] Gentile or unlettered prophet in the
[42:18] previous scriptures. So, what do you
[42:20] think are examples of some of the best
[42:23] prophecies that mention Muhammad
[42:25] Sallallahu alaihi wasallam in the Bible?
[42:29] Oh, yeah. So,
[42:30] uh Daniel 2, Daniel 7.
[42:33] I think by far
[42:35] is the clearest
[42:38] prophecy found
[42:40] in the Tanakh.
[42:42] I mean, it can't get more clear than
[42:44] that. It's not talking and it's not
[42:46] poetic. It's not poetry.
[42:48] It's not You don't have to, you know,
[42:50] get some kind of
[42:52] a midrashic interpretation.
[42:55] It's not Man, my light keeps turning
[42:57] off. What's going on? Uh hold on. Let me
[43:00] plug it in again properly.
[43:03] Okay.
[43:04] One sec.
[43:08] Sorry about that.
[43:10] Just plug it in.
[43:17] Okay. You can hear me, yeah?
[43:22] You can hear me?
[43:23] Yeah, I can hear you.
[43:24] Okay. So, yeah, it's clear. It's not
[43:26] poetic.
[43:27] Uh it's not some kind of uh Christian
[43:31] fulfillment where they have "And he will
[43:33] be called the Nazarene." And really, you
[43:35] know, Nazarene is close to the word
[43:37] netzar, which means branch. And you
[43:40] know, if you connect force enough dots,
[43:43] then maybe you could see it.
[43:46] Uh it's not it's not like that. It's
[43:47] clear. You have four kingdoms that will
[43:50] come one after the other. The kingdoms
[43:51] are named. You don't have to figure them
[43:53] out. They're They
[43:55] Daniel tells you what they are, except
[43:56] for the fourth one, which is obvious by
[43:58] the consensus of Jews and Christians.
[44:01] And then you have after that,
[44:03] the kingdom of God will come or will
[44:05] rise or will destroy the Roman Empire.
[44:08] Okay, all we have to do is just look who
[44:10] did this historically, it's the Muslims.
[44:12] It's over. It's done. And this is why
[44:15] um
[44:16] if we look at Jews from the 5th and 6th
[44:19] century, have hymns uh uh poetry from
[44:22] Jews
[44:24] uh in the 5th century in scriptures,
[44:26] prayers of Jews in the 5th and 6th
[44:28] century. They are waiting for somebody
[44:31] to come. The kingdom of God to come,
[44:33] crush the evil Roman Byzantine Empire.
[44:37] If we look at Christian sources,
[44:40] church fathers, they tell us that
[44:42] because they believe it's the Messiah,
[44:44] right?
[44:45] Jesus will come back and he will destroy
[44:47] the Byzant- uh the Roman Empire. He will
[44:49] destroy the Byzantine Roman Empire.
[44:52] Cuz they think it's the Messiah who will
[44:53] do it. But guess who does it? It's the
[44:55] Prophet Muhammad. He is his nation that
[44:57] destroyed the Byzantine Roman Empire.
[45:00] So, this is why it's a clear
[45:02] fulfillment. You can't you you could see
[45:05] it with your eyes closed. That's how
[45:06] obvious it is. Then you have other
[45:08] passages
[45:10] uh in Isaiah, like uh Isaiah 42.
[45:15] You have um
[45:17] uh Malachi chapter 3.
[45:20] You have Deuteronomy 18.
[45:22] Uh many many many prophecies and it's a
[45:25] cumulative case. It's a cumulative case.
[45:28] Right? If you look at all of these
[45:31] passages together, they form a
[45:33] storyline.
[45:34] There's a gentile prophet
[45:37] who will come from the line of Ishmael
[45:40] who will usher in God's kingdom,
[45:42] be a great nation,
[45:45] and he will spread worldwide monotheism
[45:47] on Earth.
[45:48] And his name is connected to the root
[45:51] het mem dalet in the Hebrew. Or ha mim
[45:57] dal, hamd.
[46:00] We find this in Haggai chapter 2 verse
[46:02] 7.
[46:04] We find this in Malachi.
[46:06] So, it's it's it's obvious. It's clear.
[46:09] There's no doubt about it.
[46:12] All right, absolutely. I have one last
[46:14] question and then inshallah if there are
[46:16] any Christians that want to come up, uh
[46:18] they can come and try and challenge the
[46:20] topic. So,
[46:21] this is more so just for like the
[46:23] benefit of the community. So, what
[46:25] resources, whether it be books, whether
[46:27] it be lectures, or whether it be
[46:29] scholars to listen to, would you
[46:32] recommend for the Muslims who want to
[46:34] study very seriously pertaining to any
[46:36] of these topics, whether it be just the
[46:38] Quran generally speaking, where the
[46:40] Prophet Muhammad alaihi wasallam is
[46:42] spoken about in the Bible, and so on?
[46:48] Um okay. Well,
[46:51] so if if people are interested in this
[46:53] kind of dialogue and discussion,
[46:56] polemics, apologetics,
[46:58] biblical stuff,
[47:00] uh and how it relates to Islam,
[47:02] then
[47:03] I recommend
[47:06] somebody called Dr. Ali Ataie.
[47:09] Um
[47:11] he's fantastic when it comes to this.
[47:14] He speaks Hebrew. He speaks Arabic. He
[47:17] speaks Greek. He speaks Persian.
[47:21] He is fantastic when it comes to this
[47:23] stuff.
[47:24] So, I I recommend he's academic.
[47:27] Uh he has he multiple qualifications.
[47:30] So, I recommend
[47:31] um
[47:32] uh listening to his material. Now, I do
[47:35] think he has some mistakes
[47:37] [snorts]
[47:38] uh in some views, um but, you know, you
[47:41] could overlook the mistakes for um
[47:45] his his general
[47:47] uh benefits
[47:49] in this space.
[47:50] Um
[47:52] if when it comes to
[47:55] uh just learning about this kind of
[47:58] stuff, just read books. Just just read.
[48:01] If you want to learn about Christian
[48:03] history or the transmission history, the
[48:06] Old Testament, there's a whole there's
[48:09] there's a never there's a never-ending
[48:11] list of books on the topic. Okay? So,
[48:15] there's it's just just read. Just
[48:19] pick up a book and read. I like uh,
[48:22] people like
[48:24] uh, James D. Tabor or I'll I'll mention
[48:26] him a lot. I've read all of his books.
[48:28] Uh, I've almost read all of Bart
[48:30] Ehrman's books.
[48:32] Um, there's other people who write on
[48:34] uh, the historical Jesus like Geza
[48:37] Vermes, like uh,
[48:39] uh,
[48:40] uh,
[48:41] uh, what's his uh, John Dominic Crossan.
[48:45] Uh,
[48:46] there's there's there's many. There's
[48:47] many. Uh, so, just pick up books and
[48:50] read. If you want to learn Islam,
[48:52] uh,
[48:52] that's I mean, you
[48:55] you probably don't want to get that
[48:56] information from me because
[48:58] my field is comparative religion, not
[49:02] Islamic sciences.
[49:03] So, if you want to learn Islamic
[49:04] sciences, then go consult the students
[49:07] of knowledge and the qualified scholars
[49:09] to help you with that. I'm not the right
[49:11] person to lead anybody towards that path
[49:13] cuz I'm not in it myself.
[49:16] All right, Tim. I'm inshallah.