The idea of communism. Debate Callinicos Zizek and Holloway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfZkfCA5YKU

[00:10] Okay.
[00:12] Um, I'd like to get the meeting started.
[00:15] Um, I'd like to welcome everyone to this session of Marxism 2010.
[00:19] Um, this evening we'll be discussing the idea of communism.
[00:22] Uh, my name is Sally Campbell.
[00:24] I work for Bookmarks Publications and I'll be chairing the session.
[00:29] Um, we've got three excellent speakers uh on the panel tonight.
[00:33] Uh, first of all, we've got Alex Kolinos.
[00:35] He's a leading member of the Socialist Workers College.
[00:46] He's um he's a professor of European studies at King's College London.
[00:49] He's also the author of lots of books, the most recent of which is Bonfire of Illusions.
[00:52] And there's also a new edition of his classic revolutionary ideas of KL Marx.
[00:58] We also have um John Holay.
[01:08] Um he's a professor at the Institute of Social Sciences and Humanities at the Autonomous University
[01:11] Humanities at the Autonomous University in Pueblo, Mexico.
[01:14] He's the author um in Pueblo, Mexico.
[01:16] He's the author um probably most famously of Change the World Without Taking Power.
[01:17] of which there's a new edition coming in September.
[01:21] And also his most recent book is Crack Capitalism.
[01:23] Um and finally, we have Slavo Xek.
[01:31] Um he's uh cultural critic and philosopher, author of dozens of books.
[01:35] and the latest is Living in the End Times.
[01:40] Um I'm going to introduce each of the speakers um to to put their case.
[01:43] Um while they're doing that, members of the team in the red t-shirts will be going around with speaker slips.
[01:47] So for the thousand people in this room who want to contribute or ask a question or or put a point to any of our speakers um please take a slip fill it in and hand it in.
[01:56] So after they've all introduced um the topic we'll open it up then to the discussion from the floor.
[02:00] So first of all I'll introduce Alex Kenos.
[02:11] Thanks very much.
[02:14] Uh a couple of months ago I was visiting South Africa and I I went to the the museum of aparate in Johannesburg which is a fantastic record of the whole system of racial oppression in South Africa.
[02:27] And halfway through going round to the museum, I burst into tears.
[02:34] And the reason why I did was because I realized that a partate this whole institutionalized system of oppression had been reduced to items in a museum.
[02:43] I for the first few decades of my life, I was brought up uh on the assumption that a a partate was part of the permanent furniture of the world.
[02:56] And suddenly I was brought up with something that I'd known intellectually but was experiencing emotionally that apartate this dense system of oppression had gone.
[03:10] Of course that leaves many other evils in the world but that
[03:12] other evils in the world but that particular form of oppression had gone
[03:14] particular form of oppression had gone and it was a wonderful moment.
[03:16] Now, what I'd like to do one day, and it may be in a few decades time, and I'm rather bent
[03:21] and on a stick, is to go to a museum of [Applause]
[03:26] [Applause] [Music]
[03:31] [Music] capitalism.
[03:34] I want capitalism to be reduced to the same status as a as a party.
[03:37] But that poses the question, what where would I be uh if if I went to uh a museum of of capitalism?
[03:45] And the answer is in communism in a communist society.
[03:48] Now, because more than anything else, communism is the name of the alternative
[03:54] to to to to capitalism.
[03:56] I want to say something about the classical Marxist understanding of of communism, but it's an idea that has been ret returned at least to intellectual debate in the past few years, particularly as a result of
[04:12] few years, particularly as a result of the interventions by Slavoy over there.
[04:14] the interventions by Slavoy over there and by the uh French uh philosopher Alan Badu.
[04:18] And I think this is a very useful thing to have happened because we're confronted with an extremely serious and I think protracted crisis of capitalism.
[04:25] And therefore we need to be talking not about regulating capitalism, not about reforming capitalism but by replacing it with something completely different.
[04:36] And communism is about the alternative.
[04:38] The idea of communism is about the idea of the alternative to to to capitalism.
[04:42] So what is communism now?
[04:46] Marks and Engles gave a classic definition of of communism in the communist manifesto and they said for us communism is the real movement that abolishes the present state of things.
[05:01] And I think that that's a very important idea there that communism uh isn't for marks at least primarily an
[05:12] uh isn't for marks at least primarily an an idea.
[05:15] Communism is the actual an idea.
[05:19] Communism is the actual revolutionary process that abolishes capitalism and implied in that is a
[05:22] capitalism and implied in that is a degree of skepticism about too much
[05:24] degree of skepticism about too much discussion of the idea of communis
[05:27] discussion of the idea of communis communism as opposed to the development
[05:29] communism as opposed to the development as Markx and Engles put it of real
[05:31] as Markx and Engles put it of real movements that can begin to destroy it
[05:34] movements that can begin to destroy it as a system.
[05:36] But of course that isn't all that Markx says about communism.
[05:38] He call in capital he calls communism the
[05:41] call in capital he calls communism the rule of the associated producers.
[05:44] In other words, those who who perform the
[05:46] other words, those who who perform the labor, those who produce the wealth
[05:49] labor, those who produce the wealth collectively taking control of the
[05:51] collectively taking control of the productive resources of society.
[05:54] productive resources of society. And in the critique of the GA program, he um
[05:57] the critique of the GA program, he um talks about the kind of principle that
[06:00] talks about the kind of principle that would govern a communist society.
[06:02] would govern a communist society. And this he says would be the principle of
[06:05] this he says would be the principle of from each according to his abilities and
[06:07] from each according to his abilities and to to each according to his his needs
[06:11] to to each according to his his needs which is if you think think about it a
[06:14] which is if you think think about it a radi radically egalitarian principle.
[06:17] radi radically egalitarian principle.
[06:19] You distribute on the basis of what people need and you demand from people not what you're prepared to pay them.
[06:24] Not in other words you don't get people to participate in production on the basis of material incentives.
[06:31] you get them to participate on the basis of what abilities they can bring to the whole process of producing things.
[06:40] Now, I don't think Marx's very limited discussions of communism are the end of the story by any means, apart from anything else because of Marx's critique of utopian socialism.
[06:52] in other words, of constructing ideal schemes of a um of a of a communist communist society.
[06:59] He says, I think just too little about what a communist society would be like.
[07:04] And that's a discussion that we need to need to continue.
[07:09] But it seems to me that fundamentally in those relatively brief intuitions that we find in Marx, we get
[07:15] intuitions that we find in Marx, we get the basis of of a good understanding of the basis of of a good understanding of communism.
[07:20] communism.
[07:22] And it seems to me better than some of the things that have been put around in the the current debates like Badu in his writings on communism vacasillates between a very abstract notion of communism as the essentially the ideal of equality which seems to be much too abstract because it says nothing about how production is organized.
[07:44] Alternatively, he's very he's much too concrete because he talks he moves from talking about communism with a small C, the alternative to capitalism to talking about communism with a capital C.
[07:57] In other words, actually existing communist parties who who more often than not are Stalinist parties compromised by all sorts of very fundamental failings.
[08:08] And I think there are two things that are missing from Badu's discussion.
[08:09] First of all, the critique of political economy
[08:15] all, the critique of political economy because when Markx talks about the real
[08:18] because when Markx talks about the real movement for the abolition of the
[08:21] movement for the abolition of the present state of things, the soil from
[08:24] present state of things, the soil from which that real movement grows, the
[08:27] which that real movement grows, the grounding for any any real movement
[08:30] grounding for any any real movement towards communism is provided by
[08:32] towards communism is provided by capitalist society and its
[08:33] capitalist society and its contradictions. And Badu says nothing
[08:35] contradictions. And Badu says nothing about that. Secondly, what's missing
[08:38] about that. Secondly, what's missing from Badu's discussion of communism is
[08:41] from Badu's discussion of communism is self-emancipation. The self-emancipation
[08:43] self-emancipation. The self-emancipation of the working class that was central to
[08:46] of the working class that was central to Marx's conception of how society would
[08:48] Marx's conception of how society would be transformed. In other words, the
[08:50] be transformed. In other words, the achievement of communism is the act of
[08:53] achievement of communism is the act of the oppressed and exploited themselves.
[08:55] the oppressed and exploited themselves. No one else can do it for them. Now
[08:58] No one else can do it for them. Now turning to Slavoi and and John, I think
[09:02] turning to Slavoi and and John, I think that they both certainly agree about the
[09:04] that they both certainly agree about the necessity of the critique of political
[09:06] necessity of the critique of political economy. Um I'm sure that John agrees
[09:09] economy. Um I'm sure that John agrees about self-emancipation, although I
[09:12] about self-emancipation, although I think we have different understandings
[09:13] think we have different understandings of self-emancipation. I'd be interested
[09:15] of self-emancipation. I'd be interested to know what Slavoy thought thought
[09:18] to know what Slavoy thought thought thought about that because it seems to me critical to any notion notion of a genuine communist transformation or the actuality of a communist transformation.
[09:27] But I think there is a point on which we do disagree and I want to spend the last um time that I have.
[09:32] How much have I got left?
[09:34] Uh seven minutes.
[09:36] Seven minutes.
[09:38] Good.
[09:38] That should be enough.
[09:38] talking about something that where I think we will will disagree which is that contemporary discussions of communism tend to focus on the idea of the commons which is a very widespread idea on the radical radical left around the world
[09:54] and very often people talk uh so powerful is the idea of the commons that people talk about communism as opposed to communism now what's the idea here
[10:04] the idea is that there's lots of good stuff in the world.
[10:07] Um either natural resources or human creativity in its fruits and these this good stuff is essentially in some sense collectively
[10:20] Essentially in some sense collectively owned.
[10:23] And the problem is that capitalism comes along and pinches all this good stuff and turns it to its own purposes.
[10:31] And that's fundamentally what's not simply what's wrong with capitalism, but what drives capitalism.
[10:36] Now, of course, it's true that there is lots of good stuff in the world that is a product of collective action or is collectively appropriated in some sort of way.
[10:45] And it's absolutely true that capitalism is coming along all the time and pinching pinching it.
[10:50] Marx talks about the primitive accumulation of capital, the original seizure of key productive resources that makes capitalism possible as a system.
[11:01] But John and David Harvey and other people have stressed that this this uh appropriation of what's commonly owned is a continuing reality of capitalism.
[11:13] It's not just something that happened in the past.
[11:16] It's something that goes on all the time.
[11:20] But I think it's a mistake simply to reduce what capitalism does to
[11:23] simply to reduce what capitalism does to that.
[11:23] And there are people who do that.
[11:24] that.
[11:24] And there are people who do that.
[11:26] I'm not saying that either Savvoy or John does, but for example, Hart and Negri do.
[11:28] for example, in their most recent book, Commonwealth, and the effect um what they essentially do is reduce capitalism to the appropriation of the of of the commons.
[11:37] And what that means is capitalism is essentially an external and parasitic force that comes along and seizes things and you turns it to its own per purposes.
[11:50] This I think is a profound misunderstanding of Markx and more importantly a profound misunderstanding of of capitalism because for Markx capital he insists on this is a social relation and it's a social relation defined by fundamentally all sorts of other things the exploitive relationship between capital and wage labor and the relationship between capital and wage labor is an internal it's an intrinsic one each of the parties to the relationship.
[12:22] The workers
[12:24] parties to the relationship.
[12:26] The workers who are exploited and the capitalists who are exploited and the capitalists who are exploit who exploit them are defined socially by the the connection um uh with with each other.
[12:33] Why do why does it matter?
[12:37] I mean this may sound like a a weird bit of kind of philosophical abstraction that I'm engaging in.
[12:43] It matters because it helps us to understand what's happening in capitalism today.
[12:45] Let's look at China.
[12:51] the the kind of fantasy world of the apologists of of capitalism.
[12:54] If we look at what's happening in China today, of course it's true that commons have been appropriated that in all sorts of ways the newly developing private capitalist class uh establishes itself as a social and economic force by grabbing collectively owned land, stealing all sorts of stuff and so on.
[13:15] But that's not what's critical to what's happening in China.
[13:18] What we see in China is a process of very rapid capital capitalist development that involves an enormous
[13:27] development that involves an enormous creation and expansion of human
[13:29] creation and expansion of human productive capabilities by bringing
[13:32] productive capabilities by bringing workers together in conditions where
[13:34] workers together in conditions where they're collectively exploited.
[13:36] There's this place called Foxcon um which is an extraordinary company which produces an awful lot of the iPads and iPods and iPhones and so on that everyone desires so so much which involves one complex in the southeast of China where 300,000 workers are employed in the same factory factory t factory town.
[14:01] that's crucial to the kind of capitalist development that is is is is taking place in China.
[14:07] Um and and what it involves is a vast expansion in human productive capabilities but on the basis of the most intensive ex exploitation.
[14:19] What this means is, and this is something that com Marx is very insistent on, that communism isn't just um um about taking
[14:28] Communism isn't just um um about taking back what capital stole, what those collectively owned resources that pre-existed the the the the formation of the cap capital relation.
[14:40] What communism much more importantly is is about is seizing the productive capacities that are created within the framework of the cap capital relation.
[14:54] marks as this marvelously contradictory view of capitalism as a disastrous and destructive force but also an enormous expansion in human productive powers which revolution is about taking taking control of.
[15:09] Why does this matter politically?
[15:11] It matters politically because ultimately it comes down to the question of of power.
[15:18] As I said, the relationship between capital and wage labor is an internal one.
[15:25] Exploiter and exploiter are bound together in this intimate relationship of
[15:29] intimate relationship of interdependence.
[15:32] Interdependence, that's interdependence.
[15:32] Interdependence, that's critical.
[15:36] In other words, the worker depends upon the capitalist because the worker only owns his or her labor power.
[15:41] The worker has to go and work for a capitalist and be exploited and all that sort of thing.
[15:46] But there's another side to that.
[15:48] The capitalist depends on the worker.
[15:51] The worker's labor is the source of the capitalist profits.
[15:56] When the worker's labor stops, then capitalism stops.
[15:59] And this isn't just an abstract proposition.
[16:01] Because again, let's go back to the case of China, the so-called future of capitalism.
[16:06] What we've seen in recent weeks are explosions of strikes by this new working class, bringing to a halt processes of production, extracting massive pay pay increases, shifting the whole relation of power between capital and wage labor.
[16:26] And that's the bottom line about communism.
[16:26] And actually it's
[16:30] line about communism.
[16:32] And actually it's an idea that pre-exists Marx that goes back to Blanke and the radical French communists.
[16:38] that what the force that is going to achieve communism is precisely that mass of wage labors who are expressed who are oppressed and exploited by capitalism.
[16:49] But precisely because they're exploited have the capacity to carry through this revolution that can take us out of capitalism to communism.
[16:57] capitalism to communism.
[17:05] [Applause]
[17:08] [Music]
[17:10] Okay, thanks Alex. Our next speaker is Slavo.
[17:14] Uh, it's so nice that we can immediately uh enter into a dialogue because strangely that you first let me make a bad taste remark when you said you were down there in South Africa and then you started burst into cry uh uh crying.
[17:25] I thought because England lost to Germany and Okay, but I laughed.
[17:30] to Germany and Okay, but I laughed.
[17:30] I laughed when England Okay.
[17:34] I also did so to share our opposition to cheap patriotism.
[17:39] When Slovenia lost to England, my son was almost beaten by his peers because he was for England.
[17:44] So, we are all here.
[17:46] But let me go to more serious work.
[17:51] Uh uh uh yes, I share deeply your wonderful idea.
[17:55] is looking at ourselves from the future museum of capitalism.
[18:00] But the first bad news we have today, I was in a couple of them is that you know unfortunately museums of communism already exist in practically all postistn European countries.
[18:11] I visited one in Budapest for example when I bought a wonderful thing a candle as a figure of Stalin and then you light a candle and Stalin melts down.
[18:24] This is as effective anti-talionist critique as you can get.
[18:26] Okay, let's go on where I also what I also share with you is uh at least the
[18:32] also share with you is uh at least the first part of your critique of Badu that
[18:35] first part of your critique of Badu that is to say his
[18:38] is to say his total conscious you cannot accuse him
[18:41] total conscious you cannot accuse him that he didn't see it.
[18:43] that he didn't see it.
[18:43] He is absolutely consciously opposed to it of the very
[18:46] consciously opposed to it of the very notion that critique of political
[18:49] notion that critique of political economy has a place a direct place in
[18:52] economy has a place a direct place in what he calls idea of communism.
[18:56] what he calls idea of communism.
[18:56] My point here would have been simply that
[18:59] point here would have been simply that one should what one should do with
[19:02] one should what one should do with regard to Badu is because Badu is here
[19:05] regard to Badu is because Badu is here although he denies it obviously canan.
[19:07] although he denies it obviously canan.
[19:07] He even calls in his communist hypothesis the idea of communism a kind
[19:09] He even calls in his communist hypothesis the idea of communism a kind of canan regulative idea and he
[19:12] of canan regulative idea and he absolutely opposes any too narrow
[19:16] absolutely opposes any too narrow mediation between this idea and uh actual social life.
[19:18] mediation between this idea and uh actual social life.
[19:21] actual social life.
[19:21] For him this is already historicism.
[19:24] For him this is already historicism.
[19:24] You fall into the historicist trap.
[19:27] historicist trap.
[19:27] What I think is that we should pass here from K to Hegel.
[19:29] What I think is that we should pass here from K to Hegel.
[19:29] we should pass here from K to Hegel.
[19:31] we should pass here from K to Hegel.
[19:31] Hegel for Hegel idea is something which
[19:34] Hegel for Hegel idea is something which is not just an ideal opposed to reality
[19:37] is not just an ideal opposed to reality but something which has in itself the
[19:40] but something which has in itself the power of its own actualization which may
[19:43] power of its own actualization which may sound ultra idealist but it's exactly
[19:46] sound ultra idealist but it's exactly what Markx says in what you refer to him
[19:49] what Markx says in what you refer to him that that is to say to conceive the idea
[19:52] that that is to say to conceive the idea of communism as a real movement maybe
[19:55] of communism as a real movement maybe our small differences begin with where
[19:59] our small differences begin with where to locate
[20:01] to locate this real movements. Uh let me begin
[20:05] this real movements. Uh let me begin with some quite empirical remarks. You
[20:08] with some quite empirical remarks. You know I was in China when this happened
[20:11] know I was in China when this happened three four weeks ago when this strikes
[20:14] three four weeks ago when this strikes started. And maybe this is a
[20:16] started. And maybe this is a manipulation what I was told there but I
[20:19] manipulation what I was told there but I wasn't told by official representatives.
[20:21] wasn't told by official representatives. I was told by this maybe you know them
[20:23] I was told by this maybe you know them one quay and other critical
[20:24] one quay and other critical intellectuals. They told me that these
[20:27] intellectuals. They told me that these strikes were strictly tolerated even up
[20:30] strikes were strictly tolerated even up to a point how do you call it incited by
[20:34] to a point how do you call it incited by the communist party as part they think
[20:37] the communist party as part they think that the only way to cut a long story
[20:39] that the only way to cut a long story short for China to retain its economic
[20:43] short for China to retain its economic momentum in a situation of worldwide
[20:46] momentum in a situation of worldwide crisis is to insist the purchase power
[20:50] crisis is to insist the purchase power of the local working class. So for them
[20:54] of the local working class. So for them they are maybe a little bit too cynical.
[20:56] they are maybe a little bit too cynical. They say of course this discontent with
[20:58] They say of course this discontent with strikes was all the time there. The
[21:01] strikes was all the time there. The mystery for them is why all of a sudden
[21:03] mystery for them is why all of a sudden were strikes not only tolerated but even
[21:07] were strikes not only tolerated but even pos that was for them the big sign
[21:09] pos that was for them the big sign positively reported in the media. You
[21:12] positively reported in the media. You know till now if you mentioned the word
[21:14] know till now if you mentioned the word independent trade unions before you
[21:17] independent trade unions before you finished the sentence to put it in bad
[21:20] finished the sentence to put it in bad taste ironic way you already had a
[21:22] taste ironic way you already had a one-way ticket train to Mongolia to some
[21:25] one-way ticket train to Mongolia to some camp all of a sudden now my god strikes
[21:27] camp all of a sudden now my god strikes get positive mention in the official
[21:30] get positive mention in the official media but my modest counter example to
[21:34] media but my modest counter example to you would have been precisely China what
[21:37] you would have been precisely China what my friends there are trying to convince
[21:39] my friends there are trying to convince me is that exploited as they are and I
[21:41] me is that exploited as they are and I Totally agree with you. This Foxcon
[21:44] Totally agree with you. This Foxcon story is ridiculous. The nicest part of
[21:46] story is ridiculous. The nicest part of the story is this one. It was reported,
[21:48] the story is this one. It was reported, I hope you know it probably better than
[21:50] I hope you know it probably better than me in the media. You know how Foxcon
[21:53] me in the media. You know how Foxcon reacted? It's ridiculous. It's the best
[21:56] reacted? It's ridiculous. It's the best of the brutal cynicism of what we call
[21:59] of the brutal cynicism of what we call patriarchal, caring, charity, human
[22:02] patriarchal, caring, charity, human relations, capitalism. You know how
[22:04] relations, capitalism. You know how Foxcon reacted to this wave of suicides?
[22:08] Foxcon reacted to this wave of suicides? Three things. First, all people who work
[22:10] Three things. First, all people who work for Foxcon had to sign anti-suicidal
[22:14] for Foxcon had to sign anti-suicidal pact. It's a bad joke. Promising that
[22:17] pact. It's a bad joke. Promising that they will not kill
[22:19] they will not kill themselves. Second, this is not a joke.
[22:21] themselves. Second, this is not a joke. That's so crazy about it. Second point,
[22:24] That's so crazy about it. Second point, now this we got more into Orwellian
[22:26] now this we got more into Orwellian Omino's waters. They had also to sign a
[22:30] Omino's waters. They had also to sign a legal obligation that if they see their
[22:33] legal obligation that if they see their fellow worker like depressed in a
[22:35] fellow worker like depressed in a suicidal mood that they will denounce
[22:37] suicidal mood that they will denounce him to the factory authorities so that
[22:40] him to the factory authorities so that they can call up psychiatrist and the
[22:41] they can call up psychiatrist and the last measure it's not a joke because as
[22:44] last measure it's not a joke because as you said these are gigantic factories
[22:46] you said these are gigantic factories they don't have enough space. Most of
[22:48] they don't have enough space. Most of the work happens in high buildings which
[22:50] the work happens in high buildings which is why the suicides are mostly done by
[22:52] is why the suicides are mostly done by jumping through windows. This is not a
[22:55] jumping through windows. This is not a joke. They are putting large nets nets
[22:58] joke. They are putting large nets nets were around the building. No. So I am
[23:02] were around the building. No. So I am the first one to agree with you. But
[23:04] the first one to agree with you. But what nonetheless they told me is that
[23:06] what nonetheless they told me is that and that's the tragedy of the situation
[23:08] and that's the tragedy of the situation that in spite of all of this those who
[23:12] that in spite of all of this those who can move to these big industrial cities
[23:15] can move to these big industrial cities like Shanghai and others consider
[23:18] like Shanghai and others consider themselves up to a point even the lucky
[23:21] themselves up to a point even the lucky ones. The true problem is background and
[23:24] ones. The true problem is background and there there we have a totally different
[23:27] there there we have a totally different situation of this half unemployed
[23:29] situation of this half unemployed farmers and maybe this is at least as
[23:32] farmers and maybe this is at least as important a movement. This is why I
[23:35] important a movement. This is why I think maybe we should show a little bit
[23:37] think maybe we should show a little bit more mercy towards China. Namely, I was
[23:40] more mercy towards China. Namely, I was told that these poor farmers who are
[23:42] told that these poor farmers who are left behind by this capitalist closure
[23:45] left behind by this capitalist closure are starting to organize themselves and
[23:48] are starting to organize themselves and organize themselves in Chinese numbers.
[23:50] organize themselves in Chinese numbers. a kind of a self-created network. We are
[23:53] a kind of a self-created network. We are talking about tens according to some uh
[23:56] talking about tens according to some uh sources even 100 200 of millions of
[23:59] sources even 100 200 of millions of people. autonomous farmer
[24:02] people. autonomous farmer self-organization and the communist
[24:05] self-organization and the communist party not for any good democratic
[24:07] party not for any good democratic reasons but because they think that if
[24:08] reasons but because they think that if they oppress this they risk an even
[24:11] they oppress this they risk an even stronger explosion at a certain point is
[24:15] stronger explosion at a certain point is seriously considering the possibility of
[24:18] seriously considering the possibility of allowing them of recognizing them at
[24:21] allowing them of recognizing them at least as some kind of a partner maybe
[24:24] least as some kind of a partner maybe this is just an old fascist formula
[24:27] this is just an old fascist formula corporate organization maybe it's
[24:29] corporate organization maybe it's something more but where I maybe don't
[24:33] something more but where I maybe don't quite agree now I come to basically
[24:35] quite agree now I come to basically first I think uh you were a little bit
[24:37] first I think uh you were a little bit unfair although I criticized him all the
[24:39] unfair although I criticized him all the time I'm ready to take the blame for the
[24:40] time I'm ready to take the blame for the commons to work Tony naggery because he
[24:43] commons to work Tony naggery because he would concede all this you know
[24:45] would concede all this you know exploitation new subjectivity exploited
[24:48] exploitation new subjectivity exploited by capital what I am claiming is
[24:51] by capital what I am claiming is something and I will try to put it as
[24:52] something and I will try to put it as brutally and openly as possible so that
[24:55] brutally and openly as possible so that I expose myself to the counterattack
[24:57] I expose myself to the counterattack what I am claiming is that to grasp I
[25:00] what I am claiming is that to grasp I repeat what I the claim I made here the
[25:02] repeat what I the claim I made here the last year that to grasp today cap
[25:05] last year that to grasp today cap today's capitalist dynamics this logic
[25:08] today's capitalist dynamics this logic of exploitation is no longer enough that
[25:12] of exploitation is no longer enough that again to grasp the capitalist dynamic
[25:16] again to grasp the capitalist dynamic you need to take into account first the
[25:19] you need to take into account first the new role important role as a source of
[25:22] new role important role as a source of wealth of raw materials which for marks
[25:25] wealth of raw materials which for marks were basically out of the equation you
[25:28] were basically out of the equation you Know the irony is that when Markx check
[25:30] Know the irony is that when Markx check it up in capital wants to demonstrate
[25:34] it up in capital wants to demonstrate that raw materials cannot be a source of
[25:37] that raw materials cannot be a source of wealth in the sense of value of course
[25:40] wealth in the sense of value of course he you know what he gives as an example
[25:42] he you know what he gives as an example oil so to provoke you I already was
[25:45] oil so to provoke you I already was interrupted a year ago I like to repeat
[25:47] interrupted a year ago I like to repeat the provocation I claim something very
[25:49] the provocation I claim something very simple if you apply dogmatically marks
[25:53] simple if you apply dogmatically marks to today's Venezuela you cannot but say
[25:55] to today's Venezuela you cannot but say that Chavez is exploiting the United
[25:58] that Chavez is exploiting the United He is not. But that's why we have to
[26:01] He is not. But that's why we have to rethink it. One thing are raw materials
[26:04] rethink it. One thing are raw materials which are an important part of the
[26:06] which are an important part of the struggle. Who will confront them?
[26:07] struggle. Who will confront them? Another one is so-called intellectual
[26:10] Another one is so-called intellectual property. And there for me, the problem
[26:12] property. And there for me, the problem of commons is crucial. Again, my vulgar
[26:15] of commons is crucial. Again, my vulgar example which I used a year ago, how did
[26:17] example which I used a year ago, how did that creep who is now happily on the way
[26:19] that creep who is now happily on the way down uh Bill Gates, how did he become at
[26:23] down uh Bill Gates, how did he become at least at some point the the wealthiest
[26:25] least at some point the the wealthiest man in the world? I don't believe in the
[26:27] man in the world? I don't believe in the classical Marxist explanation of you
[26:30] classical Marxist explanation of you know extreme extra extra superprofit
[26:33] know extreme extra extra superprofit exploitation. I think we should return
[26:36] exploitation. I think we should return to the category of rent which is still
[26:39] to the category of rent which is still some kind of exploitation but different.
[26:41] some kind of exploitation but different. I think uh Bill Gates is not so rich
[26:44] I think uh Bill Gates is not so rich because he especially has exploited his
[26:47] because he especially has exploited his workers or whatever but because again he
[26:51] workers or whatever but because again he appropriated part of what should be and
[26:54] appropriated part of what should be and in a way even is our commons. Each of us
[26:58] in a way even is our commons. Each of us when we want to be in touch in a shared
[27:00] when we want to be in touch in a shared public space you have to pay to him the
[27:04] public space you have to pay to him the price just so that we can share the same
[27:07] price just so that we can share the same field through internet social space and
[27:08] field through internet social space and so on and so on. This is for me the
[27:11] so on and so on. This is for me the logic of the privatization of the
[27:13] logic of the privatization of the commons. It has something to do
[27:16] commons. It has something to do uh okay okay I will overcome this quick
[27:20] uh okay okay I will overcome this quick heart attack and go on. Yes it has
[27:22] heart attack and go on. Yes it has something I think to do with the big
[27:25] something I think to do with the big problem of what Markx called general
[27:28] problem of what Markx called general intellect where I think Marx is at his
[27:31] intellect where I think Marx is at his best. You remember in Grund where Markx
[27:34] best. You remember in Grund where Markx says how uh how uh the moment the
[27:39] says how uh how uh the moment the knowledge collective practical knowledge
[27:40] knowledge collective practical knowledge will become the main source of wealth
[27:43] will become the main source of wealth capitalism will dissolve. He comes very
[27:45] capitalism will dissolve. He comes very close to some kind of almost economic
[27:47] close to some kind of almost economic determinism. I think what Markx didn't
[27:50] determinism. I think what Markx didn't take into account is the possibility of
[27:52] take into account is the possibility of this general knowledge, collective
[27:54] this general knowledge, collective practical
[27:56] practical knowledge, productive knowledge being
[27:59] knowledge, productive knowledge being reprivatized again. This is why I think
[28:02] reprivatized again. This is why I think that although I agree with you, commons
[28:04] that although I agree with you, commons were enclosed all the time. I
[28:06] were enclosed all the time. I nonetheless agree with those who claim
[28:08] nonetheless agree with those who claim that today we have a new much more
[28:11] that today we have a new much more radical maybe even uh unthinkable for
[28:15] radical maybe even uh unthinkable for Mark's twist in this story. So this was
[28:17] Mark's twist in this story. So this was the introduction. Now the shorter part
[28:19] the introduction. Now the shorter part the main part what I okay I will just
[28:22] the main part what I okay I will just enumerate points for you since I'm again
[28:25] enumerate points for you since I'm again as I always emphasize the victim of a
[28:27] as I always emphasize the victim of a brutal metaphysical linear notion of
[28:30] brutal metaphysical linear notion of time person okay sorry quickly quickly
[28:34] time person okay sorry quickly quickly first thing you know museum of communism
[28:37] first thing you know museum of communism I'm still absolutely for communism but
[28:39] I'm still absolutely for communism but what this means is that we the left
[28:41] what this means is that we the left really have to take into account the
[28:44] really have to take into account the amount of the failure of 1990 what I
[28:47] amount of the failure of 1990 what I claim is that not only did a certain
[28:49] claim is that not only did a certain Stalinist state socialism disintegrate.
[28:52] Stalinist state socialism disintegrate. Now with a 20 years delay, we are
[28:54] Now with a 20 years delay, we are getting that also welfare state social
[28:57] getting that also welfare state social democracy lost is slowly disappearing.
[29:00] democracy lost is slowly disappearing. And I would add to provoke you something
[29:03] And I would add to provoke you something which probably you will not agree but
[29:06] which probably you will not agree but it's my crucial point that you know all
[29:09] it's my crucial point that you know all those who were criticizing these twin
[29:11] those who were criticizing these twin brothers of two versions of state
[29:12] brothers of two versions of state socialism western democratic welfare
[29:14] socialism western democratic welfare state and Stalinist uh usually do it
[29:18] state and Stalinist uh usually do it from a position of a dream of council
[29:20] from a position of a dream of council Soviets immediate democracy and so on
[29:22] Soviets immediate democracy and so on and so on. I claim that that one also
[29:25] and so on. I claim that that one also has to be abandoned that this was the
[29:27] has to be abandoned that this was the big dream which died different deaths
[29:30] big dream which died different deaths Chinese cultural revolution 68 and so on
[29:34] Chinese cultural revolution 68 and so on and so on. I claim this is an illusion
[29:37] and so on. I claim this is an illusion the idea that somehow the authentic
[29:40] the idea that somehow the authentic working class will awaken in some kind
[29:42] working class will awaken in some kind of direct democracy and so on. Second
[29:44] of direct democracy and so on. Second point when we are anti- capitalists here
[29:47] point when we are anti- capitalists here now I hope here at least we will all
[29:49] now I hope here at least we will all agree did you notice how today we even
[29:52] agree did you notice how today we even have as my Indian friend Saro Giri
[29:54] have as my Indian friend Saro Giri recently told me wonderful expression an
[29:57] recently told me wonderful expression an overload of the critique of the horrors
[29:59] overload of the critique of the horrors of capitalism nothing is easier than to
[30:02] of capitalism nothing is easier than to be anti- capitalist today in all the
[30:04] be anti- capitalist today in all the media you are bombarded that corrupted
[30:07] media you are bombarded that corrupted banker that that that company which is
[30:10] banker that that that company which is polluting the environment that company
[30:12] polluting the environment that company which is using child slave labor and so
[30:14] which is using child slave labor and so on and so on. It's elementary to say
[30:17] on and so on. It's elementary to say what is wrong here. You can be as much
[30:20] what is wrong here. You can be as much anti- capitalism as you want but this
[30:22] anti- capitalism as you want but this ethical anti- capitalism always
[30:25] ethical anti- capitalism always personifies it with you know that
[30:26] personifies it with you know that corrupted that corrupted they obuscate
[30:29] corrupted that corrupted they obuscate that the question is the question of the
[30:30] that the question is the question of the system. Even Obama to whom I still have
[30:33] system. Even Obama to whom I still have at least a certain minimal respect
[30:36] at least a certain minimal respect deeply disappointed me here. How did
[30:38] deeply disappointed me here. How did Obama react to BP oil spill? I'm not
[30:40] Obama react to BP oil spill? I'm not paid by British Petroleum. I also think
[30:43] paid by British Petroleum. I also think they are disgusting. All I'm saying is
[30:45] they are disgusting. All I'm saying is that it's you see we have a great
[30:48] that it's you see we have a great natural catastrophe with unpredictable
[30:51] natural catastrophe with unpredictable consequences instead of approaching it
[30:53] consequences instead of approaching it in a radical way mobilizing all the
[30:57] in a radical way mobilizing all the people. Maybe even the army at least the
[30:59] people. Maybe even the army at least the the US army in this way would have been
[31:01] the US army in this way would have been doing something more meaningful than
[31:03] doing something more meaningful than killing than killing the Afghanist. No.
[31:05] killing than killing the Afghanist. No. Uh what is he doing? He changed it into
[31:08] Uh what is he doing? He changed it into a typical legal private immoral culprit
[31:13] a typical legal private immoral culprit uh problem as it I will kick the BP in
[31:16] uh problem as it I will kick the BP in the ass and I will make them pay which
[31:19] the ass and I will make them pay which is totally ridiculous. You can see here
[31:21] is totally ridiculous. You can see here how we cannot do with e
[31:24] how we cannot do with e ecology the amount of crisis which are
[31:27] ecology the amount of crisis which are definitely ahead of us. They absolutely
[31:31] definitely ahead of us. They absolutely need something that I cannot by call but
[31:33] need something that I cannot by call but call a communist approach. that is to
[31:36] call a communist approach. that is to say a large mobilization outside the
[31:39] say a large mobilization outside the market and outside this legal state
[31:42] market and outside this legal state form. So uh uh again uh the problem for
[31:46] form. So uh uh again uh the problem for me is the following one of communism. I
[31:48] me is the following one of communism. I hope we also here we all agree this
[31:51] hope we also here we all agree this basic insight of marks that the problem
[31:53] basic insight of marks that the problem of
[31:54] of freedom the true sight of the problem of
[31:57] freedom the true sight of the problem of freedom is not the political system you
[32:00] freedom is not the political system you know all this measurement done by
[32:03] know all this measurement done by western agencies who in a patternizing
[32:06] western agencies who in a patternizing way measure third world countries. Do
[32:08] way measure third world countries. Do you have free elections? Do you have
[32:10] you have free elections? Do you have independent judges and so on? The true
[32:13] independent judges and so on? The true measure of freedom is what goes on in
[32:16] measure of freedom is what goes on in what superficially appears as an uh
[32:20] what superficially appears as an uh apolitical set of civil society,
[32:23] apolitical set of civil society, relations, production, exploitation,
[32:25] relations, production, exploitation, even family and so on and so on. there
[32:28] even family and so on and so on. there in this not directly of course they are
[32:30] in this not directly of course they are in reality political political their
[32:33] in reality political political their freedom is decided which is why I think
[32:35] freedom is decided which is why I think that this cheap anti- capitalism oh how
[32:38] that this cheap anti- capitalism oh how corrupted they are BP this company that
[32:41] corrupted they are BP this company that still implicitly yes remains within the
[32:44] still implicitly yes remains within the scope of this legal approach we need to
[32:47] scope of this legal approach we need to expand political democracy to cover it
[32:49] expand political democracy to cover it up and so on and so on it cannot be done
[32:52] up and so on and so on it cannot be done okay I will now really sum it up because
[32:54] okay I will now really sum it up because I would like maybe to engage in a debate
[32:56] I would like maybe to engage in a debate with you John with your legendary
[32:58] with you John with your legendary statement which I hope maybe I
[33:01] statement which I hope maybe I misunderstood about you know like let's
[33:03] misunderstood about you know like let's do our job properly at this local level
[33:06] do our job properly at this local level and somehow now I am not sure I got you
[33:10] and somehow now I am not sure I got you correctly the way you all radically
[33:12] correctly the way you all radically interpreted is you know it's like this
[33:14] interpreted is you know it's like this what Hegel would have called uh
[33:17] what Hegel would have called uh subterranean uh work of
[33:20] subterranean uh work of uh slow work so that you don't have to
[33:23] uh slow work so that you don't have to confront the power directly you just do
[33:25] confront the power directly you just do this local work We don't need to take
[33:28] this local work We don't need to take power but some well to be very brutal
[33:32] power but some well to be very brutal and really to sum it up my problem is
[33:34] and really to sum it up my problem is one that I read your work no the KGB did
[33:37] one that I read your work no the KGB did it I have it in black book all the
[33:39] it I have it in black book all the quotes and all the examples that you
[33:42] quotes and all the examples that you this is an empirical claim please I
[33:44] this is an empirical claim please I would like to be refuted this is not a
[33:46] would like to be refuted this is not a rhetorical stupidity all all examples
[33:49] rhetorical stupidity all all examples that you enumerate I claim still
[33:53] that you enumerate I claim still presuppose not only a relatively strong
[33:56] presuppose not only a relatively strong but even a relatively efficient state I
[33:59] but even a relatively efficient state I claim. Yes, I claim. Show me an that you
[34:02] claim. Yes, I claim. Show me an that you know you can have all these local
[34:04] know you can have all these local communities doing their work is always
[34:07] communities doing their work is always in the background the state remains.
[34:10] in the background the state remains. Second point what to do then when to put
[34:14] Second point what to do then when to put it in very naive terms how literally am
[34:16] it in very naive terms how literally am I to take Yes. Stop. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[34:19] I to take Yes. Stop. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm stopping. It's a
[34:20] Yeah. Yeah. I'm stopping. It's a dialectical process. Yeah. Yeah.
[34:23] dialectical process. Yeah. Yeah. How how literally do you take this not
[34:26] How how literally do you take this not power like now I'm consciously uh to
[34:30] power like now I'm consciously uh to provoke you as an aggressive among
[34:32] provoke you as an aggressive among comrades we are contradictions within
[34:34] comrades we are contradictions within the people blah blah uh how what would
[34:37] the people blah blah uh how what would you say to Morales no step down rather
[34:40] you say to Morales no step down rather do your work down and my idea is not
[34:42] do your work down and my idea is not Chavez I have my idea is Morales here we
[34:45] Chavez I have my idea is Morales here we can grab power why not we can in
[34:48] can grab power why not we can in collaboration with all those local
[34:50] collaboration with all those local movements that you like so much we can
[34:52] movements that you like so much we can do the work and if okay I could go on
[34:55] do the work and if okay I could go on for 1 hour but just to conclude another
[34:57] for 1 hour but just to conclude another point which I think we share people when
[35:00] point which I think we share people when we dream about society to come people
[35:03] we dream about society to come people usually tell us oh this is utopia this
[35:05] usually tell us oh this is utopia this is impossible just to conclude really
[35:07] is impossible just to conclude really don't uh yeah yeah yeah I see your evil
[35:09] don't uh yeah yeah yeah I see your evil eye yeah I mean through my ideological
[35:13] eye yeah I mean through my ideological eyes I see the red leather and you are
[35:15] eyes I see the red leather and you are whipping me okay sorry uh sorry you know
[35:19] whipping me okay sorry uh sorry you know that you know that uh It's typical when
[35:22] that you know that uh It's typical when people tell us
[35:23] people tell us impossible. Did you notice how in what a
[35:26] impossible. Did you notice how in what a strange way the signifier impossible
[35:29] strange way the signifier impossible functions in our ideological space? On
[35:33] functions in our ideological space? On the one hand, the official ideology is
[35:36] the one hand, the official ideology is telling us everything is becoming almost
[35:38] telling us everything is becoming almost possible. You know, in the field of
[35:41] possible. You know, in the field of private pleasure, science and so on, we
[35:44] private pleasure, science and so on, we will be able to change our character. We
[35:46] will be able to change our character. We will be able not to mention what
[35:47] will be able not to mention what horrible things in sexuality doing. We
[35:50] horrible things in sexuality doing. We will be able to travel to the moon.
[35:52] will be able to travel to the moon. Everything is possible there. But the
[35:55] Everything is possible there. But the moment you approach social relations,
[35:58] moment you approach social relations, there are more and more things which are
[36:00] there are more and more things which are impossible. You know, as if the message
[36:02] impossible. You know, as if the message of the ruining ideology, we be able to
[36:05] of the ruining ideology, we be able to travel to the moon to Venus. We will be
[36:08] travel to the moon to Venus. We will be able to become immortals. Of course, why
[36:10] able to become immortals. Of course, why not? But will it be possible to change a
[36:13] not? But will it be possible to change a little bit the healthcare care
[36:15] little bit the healthcare care legislation? No. No way. That's
[36:17] legislation? No. No way. That's impossible. No. So you know the what is
[36:20] impossible. No. So you know the what is possible what is impossible is maybe the
[36:24] possible what is impossible is maybe the crucial ideological opposition today and
[36:28] crucial ideological opposition today and our message should be of course not in
[36:30] our message should be of course not in an irrational sense but in the sense of
[36:32] an irrational sense but in the sense of what appears as impossible within a
[36:36] what appears as impossible within a certain ideological social space. It's
[36:40] certain ideological social space. It's yes you are right it is impossible but
[36:44] yes you are right it is impossible but look see look at us and claren we will
[36:47] look see look at us and claren we will do the impossible thank you very
[37:03] okay um thanks and our final speaker is
[37:06] okay um thanks and our final speaker is John Holay
[37:07] John Holay [Applause]
[37:07] [Applause] [Music]
[37:11] [Applause]
[37:13] [Applause] [Music]
[37:16] [Music] Thank Thank you very much. It It's
[37:19] Thank Thank you very much. It It's lovely to be back again. It's lovely and
[37:23] lovely to be back again. It's lovely and it's a little bit frightening. It's a
[37:25] it's a little bit frightening. It's a little bit frightening to see so many
[37:27] little bit frightening to see so many people and to see the big queue
[37:28] people and to see the big queue beforehand, all those people waiting and
[37:31] beforehand, all those people waiting and you think, "My
[37:33] you think, "My goodness, my goodness, my goodness. What
[37:36] goodness, my goodness, my goodness. What are you all doing here? You
[37:39] are you all doing here? You know, my goodness, why why do you all
[37:42] know, my goodness, why why do you all want to talk about the idea of
[37:44] want to talk about the idea of communism? And can it be perhaps that we
[37:48] communism? And can it be perhaps that we are all here because we are all
[37:53] [Applause]
[37:56] [Applause] [Music]
[37:59] [Music] communists? And of course, that's only
[38:02] communists? And of course, that's only the beginning because the question is,
[38:03] the beginning because the question is, what do we mean by that?
[38:06] what do we mean by that? And I loved I loved Alex's museum, the
[38:10] And I loved I loved Alex's museum, the idea of a museum of capitalism. That
[38:12] idea of a museum of capitalism. That that's really lovely. The only problem
[38:14] that's really lovely. The only problem is where is it? And I think he says,
[38:18] is where is it? And I think he says, "Well, it's in communism, of course. But
[38:21] "Well, it's in communism, of course. But where where is this communism?" And I
[38:23] where where is this communism?" And I think my fear my really my fear is that
[38:26] think my fear my really my fear is that communism becomes a kind of land of Oz,
[38:30] communism becomes a kind of land of Oz, you know, somewhere over the rainbow.
[38:33] you know, somewhere over the rainbow. And it's not like that. It can't be like
[38:36] And it's not like that. It can't be like that. It seems to me that no that
[38:39] that. It seems to me that no that communism is very much here and now. And
[38:44] communism is very much here and now. And we have to start from that. If we want
[38:47] we have to start from that. If we want communism, if we are communists, then we
[38:50] communism, if we are communists, then we must start from the idea that communism
[38:52] must start from the idea that communism is already here, here, and now.
[38:56] is already here, here, and now. And
[39:01] I I suppose partly why I say that is
[39:05] I I suppose partly why I say that is because I've just come from a very
[39:07] because I've just come from a very striking example of that. That about 10
[39:10] striking example of that. That about 10 days ago I was I had the pleasure of
[39:13] days ago I was I had the pleasure of giving a talk in Navarino Park in
[39:17] giving a talk in Navarino Park in Athens. And Navarino Park is very
[39:20] Athens. And Navarino Park is very interesting because it's a it's a really
[39:22] interesting because it's a it's a really a garden created a community garden
[39:25] a garden created a community garden created in the middle of the city and
[39:27] created in the middle of the city and it's just around the corner from where
[39:29] it's just around the corner from where the police shot Alexis Griggeropouloolis
[39:32] the police shot Alexis Griggeropouloolis the 15year-old in December 2008. And
[39:37] the 15year-old in December 2008. And with all the huge riots that followed
[39:39] with all the huge riots that followed that shooting, one of the things that
[39:42] that shooting, one of the things that happened was that people occupied a a
[39:45] happened was that people occupied a a car park in just around the corner from
[39:48] car park in just around the corner from where it happened in near the center of
[39:50] where it happened in near the center of Athens and they tore down the walls of
[39:52] Athens and they tore down the walls of the car park and they transformed it
[39:55] the car park and they transformed it into a garden and it's a beautiful
[39:57] into a garden and it's a beautiful garden and it's used by all the people
[39:59] garden and it's used by all the people in the neighborhood and it's used by
[40:01] in the neighborhood and it's used by children and they hold meetings there
[40:03] children and they hold meetings there and it's fantastic. And the first time I
[40:06] and it's fantastic. And the first time I went, I felt, wow, this is
[40:09] went, I felt, wow, this is communism. This is
[40:14] [Applause]
[40:18] [Applause] revolution. And I still feel that
[40:21] revolution. And I still feel that strongly. I still feel very much that
[40:23] strongly. I still feel very much that that is where communism is. That is what
[40:25] that is where communism is. That is what communism
[40:27] communism means. Why? I think firstly because it
[40:31] means. Why? I think firstly because it the garden grew out of a no grew out of
[40:36] the garden grew out of a no grew out of a yabasta. Yeah. We can't go on we can't
[40:40] a yabasta. Yeah. We can't go on we can't go on living in this capitalist world.
[40:43] go on living in this capitalist world. We can't go on creating and recreating
[40:47] We can't go on creating and recreating capitalism because it is destroying us
[40:50] capitalism because it is destroying us and it is destroying us very quickly. We
[40:53] and it is destroying us very quickly. We have to break the logic. We have to
[40:56] have to break the logic. We have to break the logic of capitalism and we
[40:58] break the logic of capitalism and we have to do it now, not in some far off
[41:03] have to do it now, not in some far off day in the
[41:07] [Music]
[41:10] [Music] future. And that was the starting point
[41:13] future. And that was the starting point of the garden. It was just a refusal
[41:16] of the garden. It was just a refusal like the enough no we can't go on. But
[41:20] like the enough no we can't go on. But that refusal, that rage became
[41:23] that refusal, that rage became transformed into a process of creation.
[41:26] transformed into a process of creation. In other words, it's not just a
[41:27] In other words, it's not just a negation. It's a negation and creation.
[41:30] negation. It's a negation and creation. Not just an against, it's an against and
[41:32] Not just an against, it's an against and beyond. The transformation of rage into
[41:37] beyond. The transformation of rage into a into a change here and now in the city
[41:42] a into a change here and now in the city of Athens. And this change seems to be
[41:45] of Athens. And this change seems to be crucial in two respects. Firstly, by
[41:47] crucial in two respects. Firstly, by being a garden, it announces that what
[41:51] being a garden, it announces that what we need is not just a change in our own
[41:54] we need is not just a change in our own social relations, but also a change in
[41:57] social relations, but also a change in our relation with other forms of life,
[41:59] our relation with other forms of life, with nonhuman forms of life. In other
[42:02] with nonhuman forms of life. In other words, a garden has the special feature
[42:04] words, a garden has the special feature of
[42:07] saying of saying that any anti-
[42:09] saying of saying that any anti- capitalism, any communism must be based
[42:12] capitalism, any communism must be based on the different relation with the
[42:14] on the different relation with the plants and animals that surround us. And
[42:18] plants and animals that surround us. And secondly, I think it's crucial in this
[42:21] secondly, I think it's crucial in this garden that the the the whole process is
[42:25] garden that the the the whole process is create creates a different set of social
[42:28] create creates a different set of social relations. It's a process of creating a
[42:32] relations. It's a process of creating a nogo area, if you like, creating a crack
[42:36] nogo area, if you like, creating a crack in the logic of capitalist social
[42:42] cohesion that the people involved in the
[42:45] cohesion that the people involved in the park put up. They don't in fact, but
[42:49] park put up. They don't in fact, but symbolically you can imagine them
[42:51] symbolically you can imagine them putting up signs around the garden
[42:53] putting up signs around the garden saying capital keep out. Here we are
[42:56] saying capital keep out. Here we are going to create something different.
[42:58] going to create something different. Here we are creating something according
[43:00] Here we are creating something according to a different logic. Here we are not
[43:03] to a different logic. Here we are not going to measure land according to the
[43:05] going to measure land according to the price per square meter. Here we are
[43:08] price per square meter. Here we are going to appreciate land by the pleasure
[43:10] going to appreciate land by the pleasure it gives to us and our children.
[43:20] So these non- capitalist, it seems to me
[43:22] So these non- capitalist, it seems to me that they are non- capitalist social
[43:24] that they are non- capitalist social relations, non- capitalist in the sense
[43:26] relations, non- capitalist in the sense that they break with the logic of
[43:28] that they break with the logic of capital that they consciously
[43:32] capital that they consciously create relations that are asymmetrical
[43:36] create relations that are asymmetrical in relation to capitalism. relations of
[43:39] in relation to capitalism. relations of horizontality, relations of
[43:42] horizontality, relations of cooperation, relations of friendship, of
[43:46] cooperation, relations of friendship, of love, if you like, relations that do not
[43:50] love, if you like, relations that do not fit in to the logic of capital.
[43:55] fit in to the logic of capital. So you've
[43:56] So you've got the creation then in this area of a
[44:02] got the creation then in this area of a communal structure, something that
[44:05] communal structure, something that develops and take takes up and develops
[44:07] develops and take takes up and develops the whole communal tradition of anti-
[44:09] the whole communal tradition of anti- capitalism. the whole way in which the
[44:12] capitalism. the whole way in which the movement has always tried to develop to
[44:15] movement has always tried to develop to to to to organize itself to um find
[44:19] to to to organize itself to um find forms of taking decisions that are
[44:22] forms of taking decisions that are horizontal that involve everybody in the
[44:26] horizontal that involve everybody in the struggle of capitalism. So you could
[44:28] struggle of capitalism. So you could think of the garden as a
[44:31] think of the garden as a space of
[44:34] space of communism that communism then exists. It
[44:38] communism that communism then exists. It is not in the far off future because we
[44:40] is not in the far off future because we don't know if there's going to be a
[44:42] don't know if there's going to be a faroff
[44:44] faroff future. Communism exists and it
[44:47] future. Communism exists and it exists in the
[44:49] exists in the interstases of capitalism. That's where
[44:53] interstases of capitalism. That's where it exists. And it exists in the
[44:57] it exists. And it exists in the interstases of capital as an
[44:59] interstases of capital as an interstitial growth in against and
[45:02] interstitial growth in against and beyond capital.
[45:04] beyond capital. And it is always difficult and it is
[45:07] And it is always difficult and it is always contradictory. And of course
[45:09] always contradictory. And of course there are problems and of course there
[45:11] there are problems and of course there are conflicts and of course the people
[45:13] are conflicts and of course the people who run the garden have the problem of
[45:15] who run the garden have the problem of how do they keep out the police? How do
[45:17] how do they keep out the police? How do they deal with drug addicts? How do they
[45:19] they deal with drug addicts? How do they deal with drug pushers? How do they
[45:21] deal with drug pushers? How do they actually create and maintain it as a
[45:25] actually create and maintain it as a real communal
[45:27] real communal space? But it seems to me that there is
[45:29] space? But it seems to me that there is no other way we can think about
[45:32] no other way we can think about revolution. that the only possible way
[45:34] revolution. that the only possible way we can think about revolution is as the
[45:38] we can think about revolution is as the creation, expansion, multiplication and
[45:42] creation, expansion, multiplication and confluence of such communist spaces of
[45:46] confluence of such communist spaces of such cracks in the texture of capitalist
[45:51] such cracks in the texture of capitalist domination.
[45:57] And and it seems ridiculous. It seems
[46:00] And and it seems ridiculous. It seems ridiculous until you begin to think that
[46:02] ridiculous until you begin to think that in fact this Navarino park isn't just a
[46:05] in fact this Navarino park isn't just a kind of tiny local example as Slavoy
[46:09] kind of tiny local example as Slavoy would probably like me to say or might
[46:12] would probably like me to say or might but it is actually something that exists
[46:15] but it is actually something that exists all over the place that all over the
[46:18] all over the place that all over the place we people create spaces they
[46:21] place we people create spaces they create no go areas they create areas in
[46:25] create no go areas they create areas in which they say no here capital will not
[46:28] which they say no here capital will not come In here we are going to develop our
[46:31] come In here we are going to develop our lives according to a different logic.
[46:34] lives according to a different logic. And if you go to the southeast of Mexico
[46:37] And if you go to the southeast of Mexico where if you go to Chapas to the
[46:39] where if you go to Chapas to the Sapatist area all around the Sapatist
[46:41] Sapatist area all around the Sapatist area there are signs saying bad
[46:44] area there are signs saying bad government stay out here the people
[46:47] government stay out here the people rule. But it's something that you can
[46:50] rule. But it's something that you can imagine in Navarino Park as I said it's
[46:52] imagine in Navarino Park as I said it's something that exists around occupied
[46:55] something that exists around occupied factories. It's something that exists
[46:58] factories. It's something that exists say in the free software movement. It's
[47:01] say in the free software movement. It's something that we all do. It's something
[47:03] something that we all do. It's something that we all do in our relations with our
[47:05] that we all do in our relations with our children in our relations with our loved
[47:07] children in our relations with our loved ones. We say capital keep out. Here we
[47:11] ones. We say capital keep out. Here we are doing something else. Here we are
[47:13] are doing something else. Here we are developing different social
[47:16] developing different social relations. And when you begin to think
[47:19] relations. And when you begin to think of like that, you begin to see that the
[47:21] of like that, you begin to see that the world is not simply a world of
[47:23] world is not simply a world of domination. that the world is actually a
[47:27] domination. that the world is actually a world of cracks, a world of interstitial
[47:31] world of cracks, a world of interstitial communism. So perhaps communism isn't
[47:33] communism. So perhaps communism isn't the word. It isn't in fact communism.
[47:36] the word. It isn't in fact communism. What you have is perhaps not communism,
[47:37] What you have is perhaps not communism, but communizing, a process of
[47:40] but communizing, a process of communizing in which people are trying
[47:44] communizing in which people are trying to communize the society in many
[47:47] to communize the society in many different ways. The only communism that
[47:50] different ways. The only communism that we could really talk about I suppose in
[47:52] we could really talk about I suppose in any full sense would be a world system
[47:54] any full sense would be a world system in which we all participated in
[47:57] in which we all participated in determining our own lives. But for the
[47:59] determining our own lives. But for the moment and at least in for the moment
[48:02] moment and at least in for the moment all we have is these movings these
[48:04] all we have is these movings these movements from the particular these
[48:07] movements from the particular these movements of communizing of
[48:09] movements of communizing of communization if you like. And to talk
[48:13] communization if you like. And to talk of experiences like that to talk about
[48:17] of experiences like that to talk about in terms of communizing I hope makes it
[48:20] in terms of communizing I hope makes it clear this I am not thinking of
[48:21] clear this I am not thinking of micropolitics. It is not just a local.
[48:24] micropolitics. It is not just a local. It is not just a garden. But if you
[48:26] It is not just a garden. But if you think, it seems to me that it doesn't
[48:29] think, it seems to me that it doesn't help to think of those spaces as
[48:30] help to think of those spaces as autonomous spaces because autonomous
[48:33] autonomous spaces because autonomous spaces imply something self-contained.
[48:36] spaces imply something self-contained. That they are cracks and cracks move,
[48:38] That they are cracks and cracks move, cracks run, cracks shoot out in all
[48:41] cracks run, cracks shoot out in all directions. Cracks come together and
[48:44] directions. Cracks come together and they come together in ways that we can
[48:46] they come together in ways that we can often not um not anticipate and not
[48:51] often not um not anticipate and not organize.
[48:52] organize. So to think of radical social change,
[48:55] So to think of radical social change, thoroughgoing change, we need to think
[48:57] thoroughgoing change, we need to think of a confluence of cracks. But the
[49:00] of a confluence of cracks. But the question is the problem is that we don't
[49:02] question is the problem is that we don't have any model for talking about this
[49:06] have any model for talking about this confluence. We can say obviously that
[49:09] confluence. We can say obviously that the confluence of the cracks, the coming
[49:11] the confluence of the cracks, the coming together of the cracks requires some for
[49:14] together of the cracks requires some for sort of organization. But this sort of
[49:16] sort of organization. But this sort of organization is not
[49:19] organization is not institutionalization because
[49:20] institutionalization because institutionalization doesn't work. And
[49:23] institutionalization doesn't work. And institutionalization doesn't work
[49:26] institutionalization doesn't work because um the cracks by their nature
[49:30] because um the cracks by their nature are the are thresholds are opening to
[49:33] are the are thresholds are opening to different to to a different sort of
[49:36] different to to a different sort of society to different sorts of social
[49:39] society to different sorts of social relations. And an
[49:41] relations. And an institutionalization is always the
[49:43] institutionalization is always the imposition of the present upon the
[49:46] imposition of the present upon the future. And that is why in fact
[49:48] future. And that is why in fact institutions never work it seemed to me
[49:51] institutions never work it seemed to me as a way of promoting the confluence of
[49:56] as a way of promoting the confluence of cracks. How do we organize a revolution?
[50:00] cracks. How do we organize a revolution? I think as Raul Cbecki
[50:03] I think as Raul Cbecki says we can't organize a revolution. In
[50:06] says we can't organize a revolution. In fact, we can't organize a rebellion.
[50:08] fact, we can't organize a rebellion. Rebellion is a movement that nobody
[50:10] Rebellion is a movement that nobody controls. What we can do is try and
[50:13] controls. What we can do is try and strengthen it. What we can do is try and
[50:16] strengthen it. What we can do is try and promote these cracks, try and create and
[50:18] promote these cracks, try and create and expand these cracks, but we can't
[50:20] expand these cracks, but we can't actually we can't institutionalize them.
[50:23] actually we can't institutionalize them. We can't organize them. And that is the
[50:25] We can't organize them. And that is the answer to Slavo's question about Ava
[50:28] answer to Slavo's question about Ava Morales in Olivia between 2000 and 2005
[50:32] Morales in Olivia between 2000 and 2005 with a huge explosion of cracks, a huge
[50:36] with a huge explosion of cracks, a huge explosion of communizing. And what the
[50:39] explosion of communizing. And what the election of Morales did was to channel
[50:43] election of Morales did was to channel that communizing process into its
[50:47] that communizing process into its logical opposite. In other words, into
[50:49] logical opposite. In other words, into state forms of organization and in many
[50:52] state forms of organization and in many ways to to to to bring that that process
[50:55] ways to to to to bring that that process to a closure. Not completely, of course,
[50:58] to a closure. Not completely, of course, because it's very contradictory, but
[51:00] because it's very contradictory, but that is what
[51:01] that is what institutionalization does. It kills
[51:04] institutionalization does. It kills cracks. Communism, communizing and
[51:08] cracks. Communism, communizing and statification are processes that move in
[51:11] statification are processes that move in opposite directions.
[51:14] opposite directions. So then what how do we promote the how
[51:17] So then what how do we promote the how do we think about the confluence of
[51:19] do we think about the confluence of cracks? How do we think about
[51:21] cracks? How do we think about strengthening the communizing process? I
[51:24] strengthening the communizing process? I think that the only way perhaps or the
[51:26] think that the only way perhaps or the best way is to think in terms of
[51:29] best way is to think in terms of resonances in terms of radiations in
[51:32] resonances in terms of radiations in terms of light shining in the dark. For
[51:35] terms of light shining in the dark. For me, Natalino Park is a light that shines
[51:38] me, Natalino Park is a light that shines in the dark. And the dark is a very,
[51:41] in the dark. And the dark is a very, very, very dark
[51:43] very, very dark dark. But it's a light that shines into
[51:46] dark. But it's a light that shines into the light that that lights up the dark.
[51:49] the light that that lights up the dark. And look around. Look around and you
[51:51] And look around. Look around and you begin to see those other lights. And
[51:54] begin to see those other lights. And that is what we have to do. That is what
[51:56] that is what we have to do. That is what we have to do. We have to strengthen
[51:58] we have to do. We have to strengthen those lights and create those lights.
[52:00] those lights and create those lights. And that for me is communism. Thank you
[52:04] And that for me is communism. Thank you very
[52:14] [Music]
[52:19] [Music] much. Okay. Um, we've had lots and lots
[52:22] much. Okay. Um, we've had lots and lots of of um, slips put in for contributions
[52:25] of of um, slips put in for contributions and also a lot of questions to read out.
[52:28] and also a lot of questions to read out. Um, I'll fit in as many as I can in the
[52:30] Um, I'll fit in as many as I can in the next 20 minutes. The first speaker will
[52:32] next 20 minutes. The first speaker will be Basamchit from Lebanon followed by
[52:36] be Basamchit from Lebanon followed by Dushko Bolafovich from Montenegro. Um
[52:40] Dushko Bolafovich from Montenegro. Um there's a microphone in the middle and
[52:41] there's a microphone in the middle and one at the front. So please come and use
[52:43] one at the front. So please come and use a a microphone. And just while the
[52:45] a a microphone. And just while the speakers are coming up, I'll read the
[52:46] speakers are coming up, I'll read the first couple of questions. We have quiet
[52:48] first couple of questions. We have quiet please. Do we answer one by one or uh
[52:51] please. Do we answer one by one or uh I'll bring you bring you all back at the
[52:52] I'll bring you bring you all back at the end. Um the first question is from Chris
[52:55] end. Um the first question is from Chris Rayburn. Bayurn, sorry. Uh bearing in
[52:57] Rayburn. Bayurn, sorry. Uh bearing in mind that there have been no communist
[52:59] mind that there have been no communist regimes that have survived more than 30
[53:00] regimes that have survived more than 30 years, why should I believe that
[53:02] years, why should I believe that communism has a real chance of becoming
[53:04] communism has a real chance of becoming reality. Uh the second is from Alice
[53:08] reality. Uh the second is from Alice Randomson from Communism for Dummies
[53:10] Randomson from Communism for Dummies magazine. This is directed to Slavoy. Uh
[53:12] magazine. This is directed to Slavoy. Uh Slavoy, do you do drugs? What is your
[53:15] Slavoy, do you do drugs? What is your attitude towards drugs? Drugs. Do you do
[53:18] attitude towards drugs? Drugs. Do you do drugs? What is your attitude to drugs?
[53:20] drugs? What is your attitude to drugs? What would be the role of drugs in a
[53:21] What would be the role of drugs in a communist society?
[53:25] communist society? [Applause]
[53:26] [Applause] [Music]
[53:27] [Music] Uh and the third question is from
[53:31] Uh and the third question is from Pauline Wheat Bowen from Unison. Would
[53:34] Pauline Wheat Bowen from Unison. Would you say that communism is not only
[53:36] you say that communism is not only possible but inevitable? Okay. So the
[53:38] possible but inevitable? Okay. So the first speaker is Basm and then Dushko.
[53:41] first speaker is Basm and then Dushko. Yeah. You've got three minutes to speak
[53:42] Yeah. You've got three minutes to speak and I'll tap on the mic after two. I
[53:44] and I'll tap on the mic after two. I speak less. Uh the f the first thing
[53:46] speak less. Uh the f the first thing that really hit me that the issue of
[53:49] that really hit me that the issue of communizing and the appropriation of
[53:51] communizing and the appropriation of spaces and all of these things.
[53:53] spaces and all of these things. Honestly, I only see it happening in
[53:55] Honestly, I only see it happening in places where it can happen. In in
[53:57] places where it can happen. In in places, for example, in the Middle East,
[53:59] places, for example, in the Middle East, it's impossible. You'll have tanks in a
[54:01] it's impossible. You'll have tanks in a few minutes in front of you and what do
[54:02] few minutes in front of you and what do you do with that? This is where you have
[54:04] you do with that? This is where you have to organize resistance. And when you
[54:06] to organize resistance. And when you look at at the the at the at the issue
[54:08] look at at the the at the at the issue of resistance and how you deal with all
[54:09] of resistance and how you deal with all of these things, one of the one of one
[54:11] of these things, one of the one of one of the trials that happened for example
[54:13] of the trials that happened for example in the two 2002 and 2003 in Lebanon,
[54:17] in the two 2002 and 2003 in Lebanon, some some people decide to start up a
[54:19] some some people decide to start up a commune and if they want to break
[54:20] commune and if they want to break totally with capital, one question was
[54:23] totally with capital, one question was asked to them in a meeting and nobody
[54:24] asked to them in a meeting and nobody answered. How do you get in a bus from
[54:26] answered. How do you get in a bus from one place to another? Who creates the
[54:27] one place to another? Who creates the bus? Who drives the bus? Who organized
[54:29] bus? Who drives the bus? Who organized the process of transportation? Who
[54:31] the process of transportation? Who organized all of these things that
[54:33] organized all of these things that actually makes us live?
[54:38] uh talking about spaces and
[54:39] uh talking about spaces and appropriation of of different commun
[54:42] appropriation of of different commun it's it's for me it's more of romantic
[54:44] it's it's for me it's more of romantic luxury than actually because the real
[54:46] luxury than actually because the real thing is how do you organize the
[54:47] thing is how do you organize the production process which we all survive
[54:50] production process which we all survive on we cannot survive without organizing
[54:53] on we cannot survive without organizing how we live on a daily basis and another
[54:55] how we live on a daily basis and another thing is one park does not does not it
[54:59] thing is one park does not does not it it brings hope because they won a battle
[55:02] it brings hope because they won a battle they did not comm they did not create
[55:04] they did not comm they did not create communism because communism is on the
[55:06] communism because communism is on the picket line is in demonstrations is when
[55:08] picket line is in demonstrations is when you go into fight with the police is all
[55:10] you go into fight with the police is all of these things. When all of society is
[55:12] of these things. When all of society is free then we can talk about communism.
[55:14] free then we can talk about communism. It's not it doesn't start in bits and
[55:16] It's not it doesn't start in bits and pieces. It starts when the struggles
[55:18] pieces. It starts when the struggles when the struggle hit hit a peak and
[55:20] when the struggle hit hit a peak and then you start seeing the future because
[55:22] then you start seeing the future because you start seeing the potential of the
[55:24] you start seeing the potential of the population in organizing itself in its
[55:26] population in organizing itself in its totality not in bits of pieces because
[55:29] totality not in bits of pieces because organizing tens of people or hundreds of
[55:32] organizing tens of people or hundreds of people is not enough. That's what
[55:33] people is not enough. That's what happened for example in 2006 when the is
[55:36] happened for example in 2006 when the is we Beirut was organized by different
[55:38] we Beirut was organized by different grassroots group it was not organized by
[55:40] grassroots group it was not organized by the state the state did not exist one
[55:42] the state the state did not exist one week after the state intervened in every
[55:44] week after the state intervened in every single locality and then then they
[55:46] single locality and then then they banned aid from different space what do
[55:48] banned aid from different space what do you do in these space you cannot even
[55:50] you do in these space you cannot even keep the space and leave the other
[55:52] keep the space and leave the other spaces being attacked by the state you
[55:54] spaces being attacked by the state you have to go there and fight them as well
[55:55] have to go there and fight them as well this is how you spread it and you don't
[55:57] this is how you spread it and you don't spread it by spaces you spread it by by
[55:59] spread it by spaces you spread it by by struggle thank
[56:00] struggle thank [Applause]
[56:11] Okay. Um, so the next speaker is Dushko
[56:13] Okay. Um, so the next speaker is Dushko and he'll be followed by Rachel Eil from
[56:16] and he'll be followed by Rachel Eil from um, Wolf and Forest.
[56:21] Hello to everyone. Uh, I'm British
[56:24] Hello to everyone. Uh, I'm British Shamodgrian. I used to live here for 21
[56:27] Shamodgrian. I used to live here for 21 years. uh and uh I arrived 1987 I moved
[56:31] years. uh and uh I arrived 1987 I moved back to 2008 to Montenegro and this uh
[56:36] back to 2008 to Montenegro and this uh spring I was chosen vice president of
[56:38] spring I was chosen vice president of communist party Montenegro
[56:40] communist party Montenegro uh this this party used to be leading
[56:44] uh this this party used to be leading party in all Yugoslavia but with this
[56:46] party in all Yugoslavia but with this creation
[56:48] creation Yugoslavia contra revolution 1989 we
[56:51] Yugoslavia contra revolution 1989 we lost almost everything we don't have
[56:53] lost almost everything we don't have anything we don't have any property
[56:55] anything we don't have any property because was taken over by by contra
[56:58] because was taken over by by contra revolution
[56:59] revolution 1989 when was actually uh made
[57:03] 1989 when was actually uh made um uh dictatorship and uh we uh there
[57:08] um uh dictatorship and uh we uh there was change of completely change of local
[57:12] was change of completely change of local government in Montenegro. A communist
[57:14] government in Montenegro. A communist party changed the name to uh democratic
[57:17] party changed the name to uh democratic socialist party. What is not democratic
[57:20] socialist party. What is not democratic at all not what is not so socialist what
[57:23] at all not what is not so socialist what they privatize everything they destroy
[57:26] they privatize everything they destroy everything. got three generation uh our
[57:29] everything. got three generation uh our grandparents and parents and my
[57:31] grandparents and parents and my generation built in Yugoslavia they
[57:33] generation built in Yugoslavia they destroy in 10 years. what we was
[57:35] destroy in 10 years. what we was building since uh in all 20th century
[57:38] building since uh in all 20th century they completely destroyed this mean what
[57:41] they completely destroyed this mean what they done they uh first they legally
[57:46] they done they uh first they legally uh take all property property was a
[57:49] uh take all property property was a government all all factory it was
[57:52] government all all factory it was property of
[57:54] property of workers and uh it wasn't actually
[57:58] workers and uh it wasn't actually property of government they legally uh
[58:01] property of government they legally uh what they done they legally uh just
[58:04] what they done they legally uh just privatized all this property and now
[58:07] privatized all this property and now there is no even work workers anymore
[58:09] there is no even work workers anymore because they lost all factory they
[58:12] because they lost all factory they privatized and they they close this is
[58:15] privatized and they they close this is what is happening and uh communist party
[58:19] what is happening and uh communist party this moment is completely uh without any
[58:23] this moment is completely uh without any power I'm from 30 member of uh communist
[58:27] power I'm from 30 member of uh communist party I'm youngest member that's why
[58:30] party I'm youngest member that's why probably they chose me most of them are
[58:33] probably they chose me most of them are really old people over 75, 80 years old,
[58:37] really old people over 75, 80 years old, young people, they don't know much about
[58:40] young people, they don't know much about that and it's very difficult for me and
[58:45] that and it's very difficult for me and little younger member to organize and
[58:49] little younger member to organize and prove them and show them what was
[58:52] prove them and show them what was actually 25 30 years ago and many people
[58:56] actually 25 30 years ago and many people don't know what's actually you know all
[58:59] don't know what's actually you know all this what's happening Serbia Bosnia but
[59:02] this what's happening Serbia Bosnia but you don't know How was economic status
[59:05] you don't know How was economic status inform Yugoslavia? Uh 1989 when you need
[59:08] inform Yugoslavia? Uh 1989 when you need to start summing up please. So sorry
[59:10] to start summing up please. So sorry when international monetary fund wanted
[59:12] when international monetary fund wanted to destroy Yugoslavia. They asked to
[59:15] to destroy Yugoslavia. They asked to close banks because bank wasn't even
[59:18] close banks because bank wasn't even government. It was controlled by
[59:21] government. It was controlled by workers. You
[59:22] workers. You knows that very well. And uh no I
[59:27] knows that very well. And uh no I definitely don't know that at any point
[59:30] definitely don't know that at any point banks were controlled by workers. No,
[59:33] banks were controlled by workers. No, I'm sorry that Yugoslavia missed me
[59:35] I'm sorry that Yugoslavia missed me totally. Sorry. Sorry, comrade. Um, you
[59:38] totally. Sorry. Sorry, comrade. Um, you have to wind up. All right. Okay. Sorry.
[59:40] have to wind up. All right. Okay. Sorry. No, you have to stop.
[59:42] No, you have to stop. They wanted to dismount. Sorry, comrade.
[59:45] They wanted to dismount. Sorry, comrade. You have to stop. All right.
[59:48] You have to stop. All right. Yeah. We've only got a few minutes.
[59:52] Yeah. We've only got a few minutes. [Music]
[59:54] [Music] Okay. All right. This is what what I
[59:59] Okay. All right. This is what what I wanted to say there is big trouble
[01:00:01] wanted to say there is big trouble Montenegrian government they want to
[01:00:03] Montenegrian government they want to join NATO only way to stop them it's uh
[01:00:07] join NATO only way to stop them it's uh to to take out this government into make
[01:00:11] to to take out this government into make some kind of demonstration against
[01:00:13] some kind of demonstration against joining NATO and I mean this is only way
[01:00:17] joining NATO and I mean this is only way what I just asking what I will ask from
[01:00:20] what I just asking what I will ask from British people to help us organize
[01:00:22] British people to help us organize referendum what is not legally obliged
[01:00:26] referendum what is not legally obliged by our government to be done. Okay.
[01:00:27] by our government to be done. Okay. Thank you.
[01:00:30] Thank you. Um just before Rachel speaks, I've got a
[01:00:34] Um just before Rachel speaks, I've got a couple more questions to read out. This
[01:00:35] couple more questions to read out. This is from Tauros. Is there a possibility
[01:00:38] is from Tauros. Is there a possibility for Marxists and anarchists to work
[01:00:39] for Marxists and anarchists to work together in the aim of reaching a
[01:00:41] together in the aim of reaching a communist world since their
[01:00:42] communist world since their conceptualization of communism is
[01:00:44] conceptualization of communism is generally the same? And secondly from
[01:00:46] generally the same? And secondly from Mark uh from LSSE is democracy the
[01:00:50] Mark uh from LSSE is democracy the biggest obstacle to stopping
[01:00:51] biggest obstacle to stopping irreversible climate change before it
[01:00:53] irreversible climate change before it becomes irreversible uh in in 15 years
[01:00:56] becomes irreversible uh in in 15 years he says okay the speaker after Rachel
[01:00:59] he says okay the speaker after Rachel will be Paul Hullbra from Brixham. Hi I
[01:01:02] will be Paul Hullbra from Brixham. Hi I want to take issue with um John Holay
[01:01:04] want to take issue with um John Holay really because I think listening to him
[01:01:06] really because I think listening to him it seems to me that he underestimates
[01:01:08] it seems to me that he underestimates what capitalism does to the human
[01:01:10] what capitalism does to the human condition. Capitalism makes us
[01:01:13] condition. Capitalism makes us alienated. Markx described the process
[01:01:15] alienated. Markx described the process where what is human becomes animal and
[01:01:18] where what is human becomes animal and we can only feel ourselves when we are
[01:01:20] we can only feel ourselves when we are doing the animal and it's through our
[01:01:21] doing the animal and it's through our labor which is what actually creates us
[01:01:23] labor which is what actually creates us as something special that take that gets
[01:01:26] as something special that take that gets taken away from us and completely
[01:01:28] taken away from us and completely perverts our lives. It means that we
[01:01:30] perverts our lives. It means that we can't imagine all our capabilities
[01:01:32] can't imagine all our capabilities because of the world that we live in and
[01:01:35] because of the world that we live in and that relationship doesn't just stop at
[01:01:37] that relationship doesn't just stop at work. So we don't get rid of alienation
[01:01:39] work. So we don't get rid of alienation when we leave work. It carries carries
[01:01:41] when we leave work. It carries carries all through our lives which is partly
[01:01:43] all through our lives which is partly why so many people feel that they can't
[01:01:45] why so many people feel that they can't think that they feel that they can't
[01:01:47] think that they feel that they can't dream and it's through resistance that
[01:01:49] dream and it's through resistance that you do see well partly you have to dream
[01:01:52] you do see well partly you have to dream if you're um a Marxist and want to
[01:01:54] if you're um a Marxist and want to imagine a better world part of keeping
[01:01:56] imagine a better world part of keeping you going is thinking about different
[01:01:58] you going is thinking about different possibilities but it's important to
[01:02:00] possibilities but it's important to think also realize that your dreams are
[01:02:04] think also realize that your dreams are are based in the world that we live in.
[01:02:06] are based in the world that we live in. So if you just think about I'm a
[01:02:08] So if you just think about I'm a healthare worker and as far as I can get
[01:02:10] healthare worker and as far as I can get when thinking about health work is
[01:02:13] when thinking about health work is better hospitals because that's what
[01:02:15] better hospitals because that's what I've known that's what health care is
[01:02:17] I've known that's what health care is nicer drugs more research on drugs and
[01:02:19] nicer drugs more research on drugs and better hospitals but actually in a in a
[01:02:22] better hospitals but actually in a in a whole change a revolutionary change
[01:02:24] whole change a revolutionary change everything gets up and played for grabs
[01:02:27] everything gets up and played for grabs and in that all our ideas change and
[01:02:30] and in that all our ideas change and what's exciting about within resistance
[01:02:33] what's exciting about within resistance is that dreams and dreamers are created
[01:02:36] is that dreams and dreamers are created And those dreams, some have contingency,
[01:02:39] And those dreams, some have contingency, you know, when you think about from the
[01:02:41] you know, when you think about from the early chartists and their sort of dreams
[01:02:44] early chartists and their sort of dreams about wanting land and wanting more. But
[01:02:46] about wanting land and wanting more. But one of the the main things that con that
[01:02:48] one of the the main things that con that people want is to be in the driving
[01:02:50] people want is to be in the driving street of their driving seat of their
[01:02:52] street of their driving seat of their own lives. And I think that's what John
[01:02:54] own lives. And I think that's what John Holay doesn't see. If all we can have is
[01:02:56] Holay doesn't see. If all we can have is a park or a series of parks, then we're
[01:03:00] a park or a series of parks, then we're not fundamentally changing. It's it's
[01:03:02] not fundamentally changing. It's it's it's a funny thing because it's like we
[01:03:04] it's a funny thing because it's like we need to realize we need to dream but we
[01:03:07] need to realize we need to dream but we also need to realize that our alienation
[01:03:09] also need to realize that our alienation perverts our dreams and it's only in
[01:03:11] perverts our dreams and it's only in acting and changing the world that we
[01:03:12] acting and changing the world that we can unpervert our dreams and really
[01:03:15] can unpervert our dreams and really relie our own imagination and dream the
[01:03:18] relie our own imagination and dream the dreams we need to
[01:03:20] dreams we need to [Applause]
[01:03:24] [Applause] dream. And um before Paul speaks I've
[01:03:27] dream. And um before Paul speaks I've got a couple more questions. Um this is
[01:03:29] got a couple more questions. Um this is from Rifat. Does it not signify that the
[01:03:32] from Rifat. Does it not signify that the horizon of capitalism has not been
[01:03:34] horizon of capitalism has not been transcended if if communism is still
[01:03:36] transcended if if communism is still defined within the framework of the
[01:03:38] defined within the framework of the terms of economic production? And
[01:03:40] terms of economic production? And secondly, from Oliver from Germany,
[01:03:42] secondly, from Oliver from Germany, don't we need socialism first and only
[01:03:44] don't we need socialism first and only then communism? Um, after Paul will be
[01:03:47] then communism? Um, after Paul will be Thomas Franker from the Czech Republic.
[01:03:50] Thomas Franker from the Czech Republic. Comrades, these debates are
[01:03:52] Comrades, these debates are fantastically important because they are
[01:03:55] fantastically important because they are a real uh repost to those who argue that
[01:03:59] a real uh repost to those who argue that Marxism is a dead dogma. It is not. It
[01:04:02] Marxism is a dead dogma. It is not. It is a tool to try to explain the world.
[01:04:06] is a tool to try to explain the world. But I must say that both to Savoy and to
[01:04:09] But I must say that both to Savoy and to John that my perception of the world
[01:04:13] John that my perception of the world differs radically from theirs. John
[01:04:16] differs radically from theirs. John mentions Navarino Park. Slavoy mentions
[01:04:20] mentions Navarino Park. Slavoy mentions the anti- capitalist overload. Now, I
[01:04:23] the anti- capitalist overload. Now, I think it's very difficult to explain to
[01:04:26] think it's very difficult to explain to Greek workers that there is an anti-
[01:04:29] Greek workers that there is an anti- capitalist overload in Greece when
[01:04:32] capitalist overload in Greece when they're being asked to take a 20% cut in
[01:04:35] they're being asked to take a 20% cut in their wages.
[01:04:38] their wages. I think it is also I think it is also
[01:04:42] I think it is also I think it is also quite frankly unbelievable to point to
[01:04:45] quite frankly unbelievable to point to Navarino Park as a way of resisting the
[01:04:48] Navarino Park as a way of resisting the vicious attacks of the Greek government
[01:04:51] vicious attacks of the Greek government and indeed followed by other European
[01:04:54] and indeed followed by other European governments across the continent. And it
[01:04:57] governments across the continent. And it seems to me therefore that where we in
[01:05:00] seems to me therefore that where we in the socialist workers party differ from
[01:05:03] the socialist workers party differ from those other people on the platform is
[01:05:07] those other people on the platform is that we believe that our tradition looks
[01:05:11] that we believe that our tradition looks at the democracy of workers in struggle.
[01:05:15] at the democracy of workers in struggle. So that of course there is a perception
[01:05:18] So that of course there is a perception in China that Foxcon is going to herald
[01:05:22] in China that Foxcon is going to herald a more tolerant Chinese working class.
[01:05:26] a more tolerant Chinese working class. But comrades, I do not believe that for
[01:05:29] But comrades, I do not believe that for one moment. The Chinese ruling class is
[01:05:33] one moment. The Chinese ruling class is a vicious ruling class that will use any
[01:05:37] a vicious ruling class that will use any means possible in order to hold down the
[01:05:41] means possible in order to hold down the Chinese workers. And what Foxcon have
[01:05:44] Chinese workers. And what Foxcon have done is to frighten the Chinese ruling
[01:05:47] done is to frighten the Chinese ruling class into trying to to hide their
[01:05:52] class into trying to to hide their weakness. And therefore I believe that
[01:05:55] weakness. And therefore I believe that revolutionary Marxists say that the
[01:05:58] revolutionary Marxists say that the question of workers struggle and I don't
[01:06:01] question of workers struggle and I don't agree with Slavoi the question of
[01:06:04] agree with Slavoi the question of workers councils of councils of trade
[01:06:07] workers councils of councils of trade unionists and neighborhoods. They are
[01:06:10] unionists and neighborhoods. They are not an imposition from revolutionary
[01:06:12] not an imposition from revolutionary Marxists. They are an imposition from
[01:06:15] Marxists. They are an imposition from the experience of workers in struggle.
[01:06:18] the experience of workers in struggle. What I believe we've heard tonight from
[01:06:21] What I believe we've heard tonight from those two is very interesting, very
[01:06:24] those two is very interesting, very entertaining, but in no way points a way
[01:06:27] entertaining, but in no way points a way forward to change this rotten world.
[01:06:30] forward to change this rotten world. [Applause]
[01:06:32] [Applause] Okay. Um before Thomas speaks, uh I said
[01:06:37] Okay. Um before Thomas speaks, uh I said I have a couple more questions to read
[01:06:38] I have a couple more questions to read out and I'll just point out I've had
[01:06:40] out and I'll just point out I've had this many questions so we won't get
[01:06:42] this many questions so we won't get through them all. Um the first question
[01:06:44] through them all. Um the first question is from Richard from the CWU.
[01:06:47] is from Richard from the CWU. Yep. Um to Slavoy, we now have the new
[01:06:51] Yep. Um to Slavoy, we now have the new international philanthropists like Bill
[01:06:53] international philanthropists like Bill Gates throwing money at good causes. I
[01:06:55] Gates throwing money at good causes. I wonder if you could say a few words
[01:06:57] wonder if you could say a few words about these good people or neocomunists
[01:06:59] about these good people or neocomunists or neopernnalists or whatever name you
[01:07:01] or neopernnalists or whatever name you care to give them. Um and the other
[01:07:03] care to give them. Um and the other question is please justify Slavoy's view
[01:07:06] question is please justify Slavoy's view about direct democracy that it is an
[01:07:08] about direct democracy that it is an illusion especially if you take into
[01:07:10] illusion especially if you take into consideration uh the huge capabilities
[01:07:12] consideration uh the huge capabilities of computer networking
[01:07:15] of computer networking computer networking and after Thomas
[01:07:17] computer networking and after Thomas will be Judith or
[01:07:19] will be Judith or um comrade Gjek I want to thank you for
[01:07:23] um comrade Gjek I want to thank you for three things I want to thank you for as
[01:07:25] three things I want to thank you for as you that you as an Eastern European as
[01:07:27] you that you as an Eastern European as an anti-stalonist and a former dissident
[01:07:30] an anti-stalonist and a former dissident have uh have put Lanni back on the map
[01:07:33] have uh have put Lanni back on the map to get landing into the financial times.
[01:07:35] to get landing into the financial times. That's a bond uh wonderful feat. I want
[01:07:38] That's a bond uh wonderful feat. I want to thank you for coming to our
[01:07:40] to thank you for coming to our demonstration in Prague against the
[01:07:41] demonstration in Prague against the missile defense shield that the US
[01:07:44] missile defense shield that the US wanted to to establish in the Czech
[01:07:45] wanted to to establish in the Czech Republic. And uh as a third, I want to
[01:07:49] Republic. And uh as a third, I want to uh thank you for being frank in uh in
[01:07:51] uh thank you for being frank in uh in your last interview for for the Guardian
[01:07:54] your last interview for for the Guardian where you where you admit to bluffs and
[01:07:56] where you where you admit to bluffs and and uh because some people have taken
[01:07:59] and uh because some people have taken all of your writing at face value and it
[01:08:01] all of your writing at face value and it has done some damage. I
[01:08:03] has done some damage. I think I I'm also a bit uh a bit baffled
[01:08:07] think I I'm also a bit uh a bit baffled that uh you still hang on to Bill Gates
[01:08:11] that uh you still hang on to Bill Gates and oil in Venezuela as being in
[01:08:13] and oil in Venezuela as being in contradiction to Markx. That's a one of
[01:08:16] contradiction to Markx. That's a one of the first things I I think that uh the
[01:08:18] the first things I I think that uh the value theory of labor actually only
[01:08:20] value theory of labor actually only applies to products that uh are um
[01:08:25] applies to products that uh are um produced in perfect markets. Bill Gates
[01:08:28] produced in perfect markets. Bill Gates and oil in Venezuela are are very much
[01:08:30] and oil in Venezuela are are very much about monopoly and therefore the labor
[01:08:32] about monopoly and therefore the labor theory of value um doesn't apply
[01:08:35] theory of value um doesn't apply directly. Um the uh did you read marks?
[01:08:39] directly. Um the uh did you read marks? Did you read marks? How can you say this
[01:08:41] Did you read marks? How can you say this if you claim that you read marks?
[01:08:44] if you claim that you read marks? I mean now you are sorry. Okay. Sorry.
[01:08:46] I mean now you are sorry. Okay. Sorry. Go on. Go on. But I mean it just beats
[01:08:49] Go on. Go on. But I mean it just beats me. Two people today. Yes. But not I
[01:08:54] me. Two people today. Yes. But not I think what in in the same interview in
[01:08:56] think what in in the same interview in in the Guardian you said that you are
[01:08:57] in the Guardian you said that you are baffled by by uh by your by your
[01:09:00] baffled by by uh by your by your popularity. I think what your popularity
[01:09:03] popularity. I think what your popularity is about is an expression of the
[01:09:05] is about is an expression of the zeitgeist. But when we when we follow
[01:09:08] zeitgeist. But when we when we follow what have been the icons of the left
[01:09:10] what have been the icons of the left over the last years then I think that
[01:09:12] over the last years then I think that has been quite quite a development that
[01:09:15] has been quite quite a development that you are talking about the polarization
[01:09:17] you are talking about the polarization of uh uh that it's easier to imagine the
[01:09:20] of uh uh that it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of
[01:09:21] end of the world than the end of capitalism. You think that you you talk
[01:09:24] capitalism. You think that you you talk about um like thinking globally acting
[01:09:28] about um like thinking globally acting locally but as part of humanity not as
[01:09:31] locally but as part of humanity not as part only of of of a local struggle. And
[01:09:35] part only of of of a local struggle. And you bring to the for the the immediacy
[01:09:37] you bring to the for the the immediacy the the the the importance of Lenny in
[01:09:39] the the the the importance of Lenny in that that looking at the actuality of
[01:09:43] that that looking at the actuality of revolution in the here and now uh the
[01:09:46] revolution in the here and now uh the cracks in the system not as a locale in
[01:09:49] cracks in the system not as a locale in the center of Athens but in the in the
[01:09:51] the center of Athens but in the in the uh social relations um in in in in
[01:09:56] uh social relations um in in in in Eastern Europe we actually have uh the
[01:10:01] Eastern Europe we actually have uh the the anti- capitalism of corruption or or
[01:10:03] the anti- capitalism of corruption or or corruption is
[01:10:04] corruption is capitalism can can solve this. Okay. And
[01:10:07] capitalism can can solve this. Okay. And uh what we have in the Czech Republic, I
[01:10:10] uh what we have in the Czech Republic, I think, is that the whole we in a sense
[01:10:13] think, is that the whole we in a sense made the whole Czech Republic a garden
[01:10:15] made the whole Czech Republic a garden and especially the place where the the
[01:10:17] and especially the place where the the the the United States wanted to put
[01:10:19] the the United States wanted to put their missile base because we showed
[01:10:21] their missile base because we showed them the door. We were able to uh defeat
[01:10:24] them the door. We were able to uh defeat their plans. Thank you.
[01:10:28] their plans. Thank you. [Music]
[01:10:31] [Music] Okay. again. Um, I'd like to apologize
[01:10:32] Okay. again. Um, I'd like to apologize to all of these people who I haven't
[01:10:34] to all of these people who I haven't been able to either read their question
[01:10:35] been able to either read their question or call them. Um, Judith will have to be
[01:10:37] or call them. Um, Judith will have to be the last speaker so that I've got time
[01:10:39] the last speaker so that I've got time to bring all three back. Um, so thanks
[01:10:41] to bring all three back. Um, so thanks again for everyone who contributed. I
[01:10:44] again for everyone who contributed. I think I think that when John Holloway
[01:10:45] think I think that when John Holloway asked, you know, why why is everybody
[01:10:47] asked, you know, why why is everybody queuing and it really was incredible to
[01:10:48] queuing and it really was incredible to see that queue and incredible to see the
[01:10:50] see that queue and incredible to see the size of all these meetings at Marxism
[01:10:52] size of all these meetings at Marxism and I'm I think it's what the speaker
[01:10:54] and I'm I think it's what the speaker said is that, you know, we can all agree
[01:10:55] said is that, you know, we can all agree that we hate capitalism, can't we? I
[01:10:57] that we hate capitalism, can't we? I mean, it's it's clear to us all what is
[01:10:59] mean, it's it's clear to us all what is wrong with capitalism. what it's doing
[01:11:01] wrong with capitalism. what it's doing to ordinary people around the world and
[01:11:04] to ordinary people around the world and maybe now more clear to more millions of
[01:11:06] maybe now more clear to more millions of people than really we've seen in some
[01:11:08] people than really we've seen in some generations in terms of what's happened
[01:11:10] generations in terms of what's happened with the crisis. But of course what
[01:11:11] with the crisis. But of course what we're debating tonight is what is the
[01:11:14] we're debating tonight is what is the alternative and then how are we going to
[01:11:16] alternative and then how are we going to get there isn't it? Those are those are
[01:11:17] get there isn't it? Those are those are the things that we can disagree on or
[01:11:19] the things that we can disagree on or debate if you like if we're all agreed
[01:11:21] debate if you like if we're all agreed that what's happening right now we don't
[01:11:22] that what's happening right now we don't like and I mean absolutely clearly we're
[01:11:25] like and I mean absolutely clearly we're looking at well if we look at Eastern
[01:11:26] looking at well if we look at Eastern Europe if we look at China if we look at
[01:11:28] Europe if we look at China if we look at other countries that claim in some way
[01:11:30] other countries that claim in some way to be an alternative to capitalism
[01:11:31] to be an alternative to capitalism they're not they are another form of
[01:11:33] they're not they are another form of capitalism aren't they that's proved by
[01:11:35] capitalism aren't they that's proved by what's happening to the Chinese workers
[01:11:36] what's happening to the Chinese workers who are fighting back and who knows if
[01:11:38] who are fighting back and who knows if some of them are being wind up but I to
[01:11:40] some of them are being wind up but I to me this is people who are exploited
[01:11:42] me this is people who are exploited fighting back even under the most
[01:11:44] fighting back even under the most repressive repressive conditions and I
[01:11:46] repressive repressive conditions and I think so Even in those countries that
[01:11:47] think so Even in those countries that claim to be something different, there
[01:11:48] claim to be something different, there is a social force being created that can
[01:11:51] is a social force being created that can challenge those societies in the way
[01:11:53] challenge those societies in the way they're run. And that's the the working
[01:11:54] they're run. And that's the the working class. And I think the thing is about
[01:11:55] class. And I think the thing is about the working class that is so unique is
[01:11:57] the working class that is so unique is the the ruling class and the capitalists
[01:11:59] the the ruling class and the capitalists need it because how else do they create
[01:12:01] need it because how else do they create their surplus? How else is the wealth
[01:12:03] their surplus? How else is the wealth created if if they don't have workers?
[01:12:05] created if if they don't have workers? And therefore, we have a force that is
[01:12:07] And therefore, we have a force that is created within the belly of the beast
[01:12:09] created within the belly of the beast that can actually challenge the system.
[01:12:11] that can actually challenge the system. I don't think we can all we can just
[01:12:12] I don't think we can all we can just create lots of little bits of socialism
[01:12:14] create lots of little bits of socialism until they don't notice that we've taken
[01:12:15] until they don't notice that we've taken over the world. I think we have to
[01:12:16] over the world. I think we have to create a force that can actually smash
[01:12:19] create a force that can actually smash it and change it for that. But I
[01:12:25] it and change it for that. But I think my point is that Mark said that
[01:12:28] think my point is that Mark said that the history of all class societies with
[01:12:29] the history of all class societies with the history of class struggle struggle
[01:12:30] the history of class struggle struggle will happen whatever we decide in the
[01:12:32] will happen whatever we decide in the room tonight there will be struggles
[01:12:34] room tonight there will be struggles whether here or China or everywhere
[01:12:36] whether here or China or everywhere around the world struggle will happen.
[01:12:38] around the world struggle will happen. It's a it's a product of capitalism of a
[01:12:40] It's a it's a product of capitalism of a minority exploiting majority. What isn't
[01:12:43] minority exploiting majority. What isn't predestined is of course whether our
[01:12:45] predestined is of course whether our side will win. And that's the
[01:12:47] side will win. And that's the difference, isn't it? What sort of
[01:12:48] difference, isn't it? What sort of political leadership will the movements
[01:12:50] political leadership will the movements have, will the workers have, will people
[01:12:51] have, will the workers have, will people who come behind? And that's actually
[01:12:53] who come behind? And that's actually what Marxism is all about. I think we do
[01:12:55] what Marxism is all about. I think we do need political leadership of the the
[01:12:57] need political leadership of the the real force that can change the world.
[01:12:58] real force that can change the world. And that is socialist politics and the
[01:13:01] And that is socialist politics and the idea that actually we can smash this and
[01:13:03] idea that actually we can smash this and replace it with, as the old anti-
[01:13:04] replace it with, as the old anti- capitalist slogan said, something nicer,
[01:13:06] capitalist slogan said, something nicer, something a lot nicer, something a lot
[01:13:08] something a lot nicer, something a lot different where there really is true
[01:13:09] different where there really is true liberation for the whole of humanity.
[01:13:12] liberation for the whole of humanity. [Applause]
[01:13:18] [Applause] [Music]
[01:13:19] [Music] Okay, just before I'll bring this um the
[01:13:21] Okay, just before I'll bring this um the speakers back in the same order they
[01:13:23] speakers back in the same order they spoke. Um just to let you know um they
[01:13:25] spoke. Um just to let you know um they they'll all be signing copies of their
[01:13:27] they'll all be signing copies of their books if you want to buy them on the
[01:13:28] books if you want to buy them on the stall outside just just outside these
[01:13:30] stall outside just just outside these doors in the foyer. We do have to leave
[01:13:32] doors in the foyer. We do have to leave the room because there's a play in here
[01:13:34] the room because there's a play in here straight after this meeting. So first of
[01:13:36] straight after this meeting. So first of all, I'll bring back Alex.
[01:13:40] Well, it's frustrating because there's
[01:13:42] Well, it's frustrating because there's so many different points that have come
[01:13:44] so many different points that have come up come up and I'm just going to deal
[01:13:46] up come up and I'm just going to deal with three three questions. First of
[01:13:48] with three three questions. First of all, Dushko, I'm absolutely with you in
[01:13:51] all, Dushko, I'm absolutely with you in demonstrating against NATO. I'm
[01:13:53] demonstrating against NATO. I'm absolutely not with you when it comes to
[01:13:55] absolutely not with you when it comes to defending the old Stalinist regime
[01:13:58] defending the old Stalinist regime before 1989. The worst for people who
[01:14:00] before 1989. The worst for people who are real communists, communists like us
[01:14:03] are real communists, communists like us to quote a a book uh by Negri and
[01:14:07] to quote a a book uh by Negri and Delers, the biggest problem that
[01:14:10] Delers, the biggest problem that communists like us have is the the
[01:14:13] communists like us have is the the heritage of the Stalin Stalinist
[01:14:15] heritage of the Stalin Stalinist regimes. And we have to insist there's
[01:14:17] regimes. And we have to insist there's an absolute
[01:14:20] difference what we're fighting for and
[01:14:23] difference what we're fighting for and the old regimes. That's one point.
[01:14:25] the old regimes. That's one point. Secondly,
[01:14:26] Secondly, Slavoi, you really all this stuff about
[01:14:29] Slavoi, you really all this stuff about intellectual property and immaterial
[01:14:31] intellectual property and immaterial labor. Honestly, it's a total dead end.
[01:14:35] labor. Honestly, it's a total dead end. Go don't don't go near it. Honestly, I
[01:14:39] Go don't don't go near it. Honestly, I mean, stop Bill
[01:14:41] mean, stop Bill Gates at the minute. Um, Apple has
[01:14:45] Gates at the minute. Um, Apple has overtaken Microsoft uh in terms of of
[01:14:49] overtaken Microsoft uh in terms of of stock market value. What does Apple uh
[01:14:51] stock market value. What does Apple uh sell? It doesn't sell software. It does.
[01:14:54] sell? It doesn't sell software. It does. It's crucially isn't to do with
[01:14:55] It's crucially isn't to do with intellectual property. It sells things.
[01:14:58] intellectual property. It sells things. It sells very nice things, computers and
[01:15:01] It sells very nice things, computers and iPhones and and thing things like that.
[01:15:03] iPhones and and thing things like that. It produces material goods that are made
[01:15:07] It produces material goods that are made by those workers in in in
[01:15:10] by those workers in in in Foxcon. All all this stuff about
[01:15:12] Foxcon. All all this stuff about immaterial labor. What Mark shows is
[01:15:15] immaterial labor. What Mark shows is that under capitalism all labor is
[01:15:18] that under capitalism all labor is immaterial because the and John is very
[01:15:21] immaterial because the and John is very good about this in his his new book
[01:15:23] good about this in his his new book capitalism because all the work that we
[01:15:26] capitalism because all the work that we do is subject to the imperative logic of
[01:15:29] do is subject to the imperative logic of competition. That means that our work
[01:15:33] competition. That means that our work our productivity is constantly being
[01:15:35] our productivity is constantly being compared with the productivity of and
[01:15:37] compared with the productivity of and work of workers in other other
[01:15:39] work of workers in other other workplaces where subject in other words
[01:15:41] workplaces where subject in other words our actual our concrete labor is
[01:15:44] our actual our concrete labor is transformed into the abstract labor
[01:15:46] transformed into the abstract labor which is the source of the profits that
[01:15:48] which is the source of the profits that drive the system. That's the critical
[01:15:50] drive the system. That's the critical thing about Marx's theory of value. and
[01:15:52] thing about Marx's theory of value. and all this stuff about services and uh you
[01:15:55] all this stuff about services and uh you know uh immaterial goods and immaterial
[01:15:58] know uh immaterial goods and immaterial labor is a total waste waste of time and
[01:16:00] labor is a total waste waste of time and you you should just get away from that
[01:16:02] you you should just get away from that Slavoy because it's a big a big mistake.
[01:16:05] Slavoy because it's a big a big mistake. Final point. Final p point to do with
[01:16:08] Final point. Final p point to do with what what what John said. The pro I mean
[01:16:11] what what what John said. The pro I mean the the picture that you paint John is
[01:16:14] the the picture that you paint John is incredibly inspiring. But the problem is
[01:16:16] incredibly inspiring. But the problem is that logic that remorse remorseless
[01:16:19] that logic that remorse remorseless logic of c capitalist competition. The
[01:16:23] logic of c capitalist competition. The logic of abstract labor constantly seeks
[01:16:27] logic of abstract labor constantly seeks to crush and to close those those
[01:16:29] to crush and to close those those cracks. And the only way we can keep
[01:16:32] cracks. And the only way we can keep those cracks open and widen them is to
[01:16:35] those cracks open and widen them is to establish a different social logic. And
[01:16:37] establish a different social logic. And to do that, we need power. And the thing
[01:16:41] to do that, we need power. And the thing that I really I think I disagree with
[01:16:42] that I really I think I disagree with both of you about this. I don't think
[01:16:44] both of you about this. I don't think that power is reduced to what we can do
[01:16:48] that power is reduced to what we can do when we can make a garden or form some
[01:16:50] when we can make a garden or form some better way of living, which people do do
[01:16:52] better way of living, which people do do all the time. And I don't think power
[01:16:55] all the time. And I don't think power alternatively is just a matter of the
[01:16:58] alternatively is just a matter of the existing state. I think there's a third
[01:17:00] existing state. I think there's a third form of power that comes when people
[01:17:03] form of power that comes when people organize collectively to resist their
[01:17:06] organize collectively to resist their exploitation and out of that power we
[01:17:08] exploitation and out of that power we can get a different way of running the
[01:17:10] can get a different way of running the world and that's what will produce
[01:17:13] world and that's what will produce [Applause]
[01:17:21] [Applause] communism with me now okay again like
[01:17:24] communism with me now okay again like you I'm sorry I mean there was such an
[01:17:27] you I'm sorry I mean there was such an if not overload of anti- capitalism at
[01:17:29] if not overload of anti- capitalism at least overload of questions and one
[01:17:31] least overload of questions and one cannot answer them all. So at least I
[01:17:33] cannot answer them all. So at least I would like to limit myself at least to
[01:17:36] would like to limit myself at least to answer your the two of you main point.
[01:17:38] answer your the two of you main point. First as it was already noted that
[01:17:40] First as it was already noted that metaphor of the garden keep capital out.
[01:17:43] metaphor of the garden keep capital out. I would also say there is nothing new
[01:17:46] I would also say there is nothing new every capitalist system needs as it
[01:17:48] every capitalist system needs as it inherent component something like this.
[01:17:51] inherent component something like this. In traditional capitalism we get capital
[01:17:53] In traditional capitalism we get capital stay out of the family capital stay out
[01:17:56] stay out of the family capital stay out of the church and so on. a kind of a
[01:17:58] of the church and so on. a kind of a space outside I think. Uh so for me okay
[01:18:02] space outside I think. Uh so for me okay let me develop that to the problem is
[01:18:05] let me develop that to the problem is okay garden everything nice okay let's
[01:18:08] okay garden everything nice okay let's say there are drug deals in that garden
[01:18:11] say there are drug deals in that garden there are women beaten and so on what
[01:18:13] there are women beaten and so on what would you have done sorry to tell you I
[01:18:15] would you have done sorry to tell you I would have called the police if not I
[01:18:18] would have called the police if not I would have organized very brutal ths to
[01:18:21] would have organized very brutal ths to keep violent people out I'm sorry to
[01:18:24] keep violent people out I'm sorry to tell you or let me go a step further uh
[01:18:27] tell you or let me go a step further uh we have not only a gardener but a group
[01:18:30] we have not only a gardener but a group of farmers putting together uh an
[01:18:34] of farmers putting together uh an efficient cooperative. Then of course
[01:18:38] efficient cooperative. Then of course the capitalist farmers don't just look
[01:18:40] the capitalist farmers don't just look and send us a telegram with best wishes.
[01:18:43] and send us a telegram with best wishes. They organized a sabotage here and there
[01:18:46] They organized a sabotage here and there to prove how a thing like this cannot
[01:18:48] to prove how a thing like this cannot function. What would you have done? I
[01:18:50] function. What would you have done? I would have organized a counter terror.
[01:18:53] would have organized a counter terror. I'm sorry to tell you. Scaring a couple
[01:18:55] I'm sorry to tell you. Scaring a couple of them burning there. Maybe if they
[01:18:58] of them burning there. Maybe if they killed one of us, kill three of us and
[01:19:00] killed one of us, kill three of us and so on. I'm sorry to tell you this like
[01:19:03] so on. I'm sorry to tell you this like Chavez. Now I have great problems with
[01:19:05] Chavez. Now I have great problems with Chavez. But as it is clear now, I was
[01:19:09] Chavez. But as it is clear now, I was convinced by statement by Lawrence
[01:19:11] convinced by statement by Lawrence Eagleberger and so on that this lack of
[01:19:14] Eagleberger and so on that this lack of food temporary in Venezuela. Again, I'm
[01:19:17] food temporary in Venezuela. Again, I'm not totally defending Chavis. I'm
[01:19:19] not totally defending Chavis. I'm referring to a very specific phenomenon
[01:19:22] referring to a very specific phenomenon of it can be proven beyond reasonable
[01:19:25] of it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the lack of food in this
[01:19:27] doubt that the lack of food in this state transors in Venezuela. It's not
[01:19:29] state transors in Venezuela. It's not just the spontaneity of the market where
[01:19:32] just the spontaneity of the market where out of self-interest uh uh merchants uh
[01:19:36] out of self-interest uh uh merchants uh or or distributors operate like this.
[01:19:38] or or distributors operate like this. It's part of an orchestrated
[01:19:41] It's part of an orchestrated uh nature of the United States connected
[01:19:44] uh nature of the United States connected with local saboturs. What do you do
[01:19:46] with local saboturs. What do you do here? I'm sorry to tell you a limited
[01:19:49] here? I'm sorry to tell you a limited amount of state terror is totally
[01:19:52] amount of state terror is totally justified to me. You put police on them,
[01:19:54] justified to me. You put police on them, you use secret police, you smash them
[01:19:56] you use secret police, you smash them and so on. Otherwise, sorry. Then step
[01:20:00] and so on. Otherwise, sorry. Then step down from power because you know you use
[01:20:02] down from power because you know you use this wonderful poetic expression that
[01:20:06] this wonderful poetic expression that you had all these gardens, gardens went
[01:20:08] you had all these gardens, gardens went wider, wider and then Morales you used
[01:20:11] wider, wider and then Morales you used the nice term brought this to a logical
[01:20:14] the nice term brought this to a logical conclusion. What is the logical
[01:20:16] conclusion. What is the logical conclusion? All Bolivia didn't become a
[01:20:18] conclusion? All Bolivia didn't become a garden, but the logical conclusion was
[01:20:21] garden, but the logical conclusion was that the left took power, controls
[01:20:23] that the left took power, controls police, controls up to a point. I know
[01:20:26] police, controls up to a point. I know of the tension the army and so on. Which
[01:20:28] of the tension the army and so on. Which why? Which is why to refer to your
[01:20:32] why? Which is why to refer to your example, the gardens, if I don't take
[01:20:34] example, the gardens, if I don't take the term garden in this isolated sense
[01:20:36] the term garden in this isolated sense of where you go, but the gardens, let's
[01:20:39] of where you go, but the gardens, let's call them cracks, liberate the
[01:20:41] call them cracks, liberate the territories are, I hope, much safer
[01:20:43] territories are, I hope, much safer because of this. because you can count
[01:20:45] because of this. because you can count on the police that it that instead of
[01:20:47] on the police that it that instead of annoying you it will maybe even protect
[01:20:50] annoying you it will maybe even protect you. So I absolutely agree with both of
[01:20:53] you. So I absolutely agree with both of you that power no that because you
[01:20:56] you that power no that because you nonetheless we all share I hope
[01:20:58] nonetheless we all share I hope something that power is not just state
[01:21:01] something that power is not just state power what really matters is local
[01:21:04] power what really matters is local self-organization or rather productive
[01:21:06] self-organization or rather productive selfarnation and so on and so on I just
[01:21:09] selfarnation and so on and so on I just have my doubts and this is the problem
[01:21:11] have my doubts and this is the problem of councils and so on to what extent can
[01:21:15] of councils and so on to what extent can this local
[01:21:17] this local self-organization model be be
[01:21:21] self-organization model be be universalized. I think that we simply
[01:21:24] universalized. I think that we simply have to confront the problem of the
[01:21:27] have to confront the problem of the problem of power. This is one thing. The
[01:21:30] problem of power. This is one thing. The second thing very uh very quickly as to
[01:21:33] second thing very uh very quickly as to this uh
[01:21:34] this uh uh Marxist because they call it
[01:21:36] uh Marxist because they call it counteratt attack. Greek make cynical my
[01:21:39] counteratt attack. Greek make cynical my idea of overload. No, I was talking
[01:21:42] idea of overload. No, I was talking about propaganda in the wealthiest
[01:21:46] about propaganda in the wealthiest western countries where my god, listen,
[01:21:49] western countries where my god, listen, look at Hollywood. It's almost difficult
[01:21:52] look at Hollywood. It's almost difficult to find a movie having anything to do
[01:21:55] to find a movie having anything to do with business which doesn't in a
[01:21:57] with business which doesn't in a ridiculous way portray a bad egotist
[01:22:00] ridiculous way portray a bad egotist capitalist. And there are no limits
[01:22:02] capitalist. And there are no limits here. Remember that stupid second John
[01:22:04] here. Remember that stupid second John Gisham movie Pelican Brief where even
[01:22:07] Gisham movie Pelican Brief where even the evil capitalist is connected with
[01:22:09] the evil capitalist is connected with the president of United States. My
[01:22:12] the president of United States. My problem is not oh you see we are only in
[01:22:15] problem is not oh you see we are only in anti- capitalism. No my problem is why
[01:22:18] anti- capitalism. No my problem is why even such ideological topics which
[01:22:21] even such ideological topics which appear very radical really threaten no
[01:22:24] appear very radical really threaten no one only make the system more efficient.
[01:22:26] one only make the system more efficient. That was my point of anti- capitalist
[01:22:28] That was my point of anti- capitalist overload that it's not radical enough
[01:22:30] overload that it's not radical enough that there is something false in it. Now
[01:22:33] that there is something false in it. Now a more sensible question with which I
[01:22:36] a more sensible question with which I will don't be afraid conclude uh this
[01:22:39] will don't be afraid conclude uh this point first about uh workingass
[01:22:43] point first about uh workingass exploitation all that complex and so on
[01:22:46] exploitation all that complex and so on and so on. Sorry but uh I definitely
[01:22:50] and so on. Sorry but uh I definitely think that today it's much first let me
[01:22:54] think that today it's much first let me say something. I it's so easy, you know,
[01:22:58] say something. I it's so easy, you know, to play the old card. No, the working
[01:23:00] to play the old card. No, the working class will arise against exploiters. But
[01:23:03] class will arise against exploiters. But I take very seriously communism. And
[01:23:06] I take very seriously communism. And this is why I for me really, as you both
[01:23:09] this is why I for me really, as you both emphasize, it should be a real movement,
[01:23:13] emphasize, it should be a real movement, not as my good friend. But you is saying
[01:23:16] not as my good friend. But you is saying an idea of communism which then as he
[01:23:18] an idea of communism which then as he concedes from time to time it explodes
[01:23:21] concedes from time to time it explodes like under Spartacus, Rosa Luxembourg
[01:23:24] like under Spartacus, Rosa Luxembourg and so on. That's not enough. What
[01:23:26] and so on. That's not enough. What interests me to put it in very naive
[01:23:28] interests me to put it in very naive terms is where today do we see if not
[01:23:33] terms is where today do we see if not already elements of communism at least
[01:23:37] already elements of communism at least to be very brutal but in the authentic
[01:23:39] to be very brutal but in the authentic Marxist sense where do we see
[01:23:42] Marxist sense where do we see contradictions antagonisms? This is for
[01:23:44] contradictions antagonisms? This is for me the only real question my God for
[01:23:47] me the only real question my God for which it is clear that even in the long
[01:23:50] which it is clear that even in the long term it will not be possible for no
[01:23:53] term it will not be possible for no matter how reformed, democratic,
[01:23:55] matter how reformed, democratic, multicultural, tolerant, liberal,
[01:23:57] multicultural, tolerant, liberal, democratic, capitalism will not be able
[01:23:59] democratic, capitalism will not be able to not even not resolve but even keep in
[01:24:03] to not even not resolve but even keep in check this antagonisms and in a very
[01:24:06] check this antagonisms and in a very modest way I try precisely because I'm
[01:24:09] modest way I try precisely because I'm also like you guided by the problem.
[01:24:11] also like you guided by the problem. Let's not dream about abstract
[01:24:12] Let's not dream about abstract communism. Where do see do we see traces
[01:24:15] communism. Where do see do we see traces today? I claim ecology. I claim
[01:24:19] today? I claim ecology. I claim intellectual property. I claim I claim
[01:24:23] intellectual property. I claim I claim biogenetics. Maybe the list is I claim
[01:24:26] biogenetics. Maybe the list is I claim of course and this is for me crucial
[01:24:28] of course and this is for me crucial here. For example, I claim we should
[01:24:30] here. For example, I claim we should make a step further from marks. Let's be
[01:24:33] make a step further from marks. Let's be very clear. For Marks, the ideal radical
[01:24:36] very clear. For Marks, the ideal radical pure form of capitalism was one in which
[01:24:39] pure form of capitalism was one in which legal equality we are all citizens. I
[01:24:42] legal equality we are all citizens. I know you start to you want to stop the
[01:24:44] know you start to you want to stop the voice of truth and so
[01:24:46] voice of truth and so on because there was okay but the whole
[01:24:49] on because there was okay but the whole point of Marx is that legal equality we
[01:24:53] point of Marx is that legal equality we are all free citizens is the very forum
[01:24:55] are all free citizens is the very forum of in the civil society as legal free
[01:24:58] of in the civil society as legal free subject we uh we assume being exploited
[01:25:01] subject we uh we assume being exploited and so on and so on what they claim it's
[01:25:04] and so on and so on what they claim it's a very common sensical claim empirically
[01:25:07] a very common sensical claim empirically in the best British empiricism sense is
[01:25:10] in the best British empiricism sense is that obviously today's capitalism This
[01:25:12] that obviously today's capitalism This is for me the big meaning of things like
[01:25:15] is for me the big meaning of things like which I agree with you in a mystified
[01:25:17] which I agree with you in a mystified way are described by a gambos sucker and
[01:25:20] way are described by a gambos sucker and all that is that capitalism in order to
[01:25:23] all that is that capitalism in order to function no longer can even afford this
[01:25:27] function no longer can even afford this universal equality. It is receding from
[01:25:31] universal equality. It is receding from it. You have immigrants, you have
[01:25:33] it. You have immigrants, you have leapier, you know what I mean? It has to
[01:25:36] leapier, you know what I mean? It has to create new and new de facto excluded
[01:25:39] create new and new de facto excluded secondass citizens and so on and so on.
[01:25:42] secondass citizens and so on and so on. Uh that's that's that's again another my
[01:25:45] Uh that's that's that's again another my god I'm very practical here. Isn't this
[01:25:47] god I'm very practical here. Isn't this another site when we can where we can
[01:25:50] another site when we can where we can start the struggle as to Apple you know
[01:25:53] start the struggle as to Apple you know I don't agree respectfully with your
[01:25:55] I don't agree respectfully with your example. Yes, I know uh Apple is saying
[01:25:59] example. Yes, I know uh Apple is saying selling products, Microsoft also you buy
[01:26:01] selling products, Microsoft also you buy a disc and so on. But I claim and it was
[01:26:06] a disc and so on. But I claim and it was proven that again the price of
[01:26:09] proven that again the price of iPad is for me intellectual labor in
[01:26:12] iPad is for me intellectual labor in what precise sense? In the sense that it
[01:26:16] what precise sense? In the sense that it in the price of iPad $400 and so on the
[01:26:19] in the price of iPad $400 and so on the part of material production of it is
[01:26:22] part of material production of it is practically negligible. It's not that
[01:26:25] practically negligible. It's not that you know Steve Jobs puts together the
[01:26:27] you know Steve Jobs puts together the production cost and they say let's screw
[01:26:29] production cost and they say let's screw it with extra exploitation when we
[01:26:31] it with extra exploitation when we arrive at a price. It's it's a totally
[01:26:34] arrive at a price. It's it's a totally different it's a totally different logic
[01:26:37] different it's a totally different logic but again what makes me a little bit
[01:26:39] but again what makes me a little bit depressed and I will get boost from this
[01:26:41] depressed and I will get boost from this not a plot I want to be finished as the
[01:26:43] not a plot I want to be finished as the Jesus Christ excommunicated and so on is
[01:26:46] Jesus Christ excommunicated and so on is that uh it depresses me a little bit you
[01:26:48] that uh it depresses me a little bit you know this rhetoric of no view
[01:26:51] know this rhetoric of no view revisionist intellectual labor blah blah
[01:26:53] revisionist intellectual labor blah blah nothing working class and so on I don't
[01:26:57] nothing working class and so on I don't see I think no this is bad news but no
[01:27:00] see I think no this is bad news but no matter how long you will wait you will
[01:27:02] matter how long you will wait you will not at a moment when this authentic
[01:27:05] not at a moment when this authentic working class the way we knew it will
[01:27:07] working class the way we knew it will reappear and so on and so on. I claim
[01:27:10] reappear and so on and so on. I claim that working class is today structurally
[01:27:13] that working class is today structurally being split. You know like where do they
[01:27:16] being split. You know like where do they fit the definition of working if there
[01:27:18] fit the definition of working if there is an absolute human tragedy today and
[01:27:21] is an absolute human tragedy today and typically those who speak all the time
[01:27:23] typically those who speak all the time about human rights never mention it is
[01:27:25] about human rights never mention it is today's Congo you cannot say this is
[01:27:27] today's Congo you cannot say this is working class you know all these
[01:27:30] working class you know all these excluded exploited in different ways the
[01:27:33] excluded exploited in different ways the problem is to bring all of them together
[01:27:35] problem is to bring all of them together and stop Yeah. Yeah.
[01:27:37] and stop Yeah. Yeah. [Applause]
[01:27:43] [Applause] [Music]
[01:27:44] [Music] [Applause]
[01:27:51] [Applause] Yeah. We our problem our problem is
[01:27:54] Yeah. We our problem our problem is surely that we all live in a we live in
[01:27:57] surely that we all live in a we live in a society dominated by a suicidal
[01:28:00] a society dominated by a suicidal dynamic. The dynamic which Markx
[01:28:04] dynamic. The dynamic which Markx analyzed in the law of value. The
[01:28:06] analyzed in the law of value. The dynamic which structures production
[01:28:10] dynamic which structures production according to faster faster faster.
[01:28:13] according to faster faster faster. Produce things. Produce things that will
[01:28:15] Produce things. Produce things that will sell. Produce them as fast as possible
[01:28:18] sell. Produce them as fast as possible as quickly as possible. We know that we
[01:28:22] as quickly as possible. We know that we repro produce and reproduce this dynamic
[01:28:25] repro produce and reproduce this dynamic every time we produce value. We know
[01:28:28] every time we produce value. We know that we do produce this dynamic every
[01:28:31] that we do produce this dynamic every time we perform abstract or alienated
[01:28:35] time we perform abstract or alienated labor. The question is how can we break
[01:28:37] labor. The question is how can we break that dynamic? Because if we don't break
[01:28:39] that dynamic? Because if we don't break it then it is very likely that we will
[01:28:42] it then it is very likely that we will destroy humanity in a reasonably short
[01:28:45] destroy humanity in a reasonably short time. Destroy humanity completely. Yeah.
[01:28:49] time. Destroy humanity completely. Yeah. Okay. How can we break that
[01:28:52] Okay. How can we break that dynamic? It seems to me that we cannot
[01:28:55] dynamic? It seems to me that we cannot break that dynamic by calling Tories
[01:28:58] break that dynamic by calling Tories scum. It doesn't help it.
[01:29:06] We know that they're scum. We know that
[01:29:08] We know that they're scum. We know that the labor politicians are scum. Why
[01:29:11] the labor politicians are scum. Why waste our time saying it?
[01:29:14] waste our time saying it? We cannot do it either calling for
[01:29:16] We cannot do it either calling for socialist policies because any a state
[01:29:21] socialist policies because any a state does states are forms of organization so
[01:29:24] does states are forms of organization so integrated into the reproduction of
[01:29:26] integrated into the reproduction of capital that they cannot break that
[01:29:28] capital that they cannot break that dynamic. And if you look at what's
[01:29:30] dynamic. And if you look at what's happening in Bolivia, Bolivia is not
[01:29:33] happening in Bolivia, Bolivia is not trying to break that dynamic. What is
[01:29:35] trying to break that dynamic. What is happening in Bolivia, what is happening
[01:29:36] happening in Bolivia, what is happening in Venezuela is very exciting indeed.
[01:29:41] in Venezuela is very exciting indeed. But the re but the dynamic of capitalist
[01:29:44] But the re but the dynamic of capitalist production is being reproduced in both
[01:29:49] places. We cannot break that dynamic by
[01:29:53] places. We cannot break that dynamic by thinking we are going to create
[01:29:55] thinking we are going to create communism in 50 years time because we
[01:29:59] communism in 50 years time because we may not be around in 50 years time. It
[01:30:02] may not be around in 50 years time. It is ridiculous. It is absurd. I'm sorry
[01:30:04] is ridiculous. It is absurd. I'm sorry Alex. Your example of the museum was
[01:30:06] Alex. Your example of the museum was lovely, but it's really absurd to think
[01:30:09] lovely, but it's really absurd to think of communism as a postc capitalist
[01:30:12] of communism as a postc capitalist society someday. We cannot
[01:30:21] wait. How do we break the dynamic? The
[01:30:24] wait. How do we break the dynamic? The only way we can break the dynamic is by
[01:30:27] only way we can break the dynamic is by refusing and by doing things in a
[01:30:31] refusing and by doing things in a different way. By create producing in a
[01:30:33] different way. By create producing in a different way. by creating other social
[01:30:36] different way. by creating other social relations. And if we think of that, then
[01:30:39] relations. And if we think of that, then we can see that there are millions and
[01:30:41] we can see that there are millions and millions of examples in the world of
[01:30:44] millions of examples in the world of people dedicating their lives to doing
[01:30:47] people dedicating their lives to doing just that. And sometimes these examples
[01:30:50] just that. And sometimes these examples are pathetic. And sometimes these
[01:30:53] are pathetic. And sometimes these examples are so small that we can think
[01:30:55] examples are so small that we can think we can just laugh at them. And sometimes
[01:30:57] we can just laugh at them. And sometimes we think of them as a tiny garden. But
[01:30:59] we think of them as a tiny garden. But if you look at what's happened in Cuba
[01:31:01] if you look at what's happened in Cuba for example, there's been an explosion
[01:31:03] for example, there's been an explosion of tiny gardens by the people themselves
[01:31:07] of tiny gardens by the people themselves so that they now produce 60% of the food
[01:31:10] so that they now produce 60% of the food required for Havana within the city
[01:31:19] itself. And Alex says we need if we want
[01:31:22] itself. And Alex says we need if we want to build these cracks, if we want to
[01:31:24] to build these cracks, if we want to expand these cracks, we need power. Yes,
[01:31:27] expand these cracks, we need power. Yes, but we don't need their power. We need
[01:31:29] but we don't need their power. We need our power. We need our coming
[01:31:37] together. We need to do things in a
[01:31:40] together. We need to do things in a different way. And if we create a
[01:31:42] different way. And if we create a community garden, of course we'll have
[01:31:44] community garden, of course we'll have problems because drug addict addicts go
[01:31:47] problems because drug addict addicts go in, because drug pushers go in, because
[01:31:49] in, because drug pushers go in, because of course people will beat women. And do
[01:31:52] of course people will beat women. And do we call the police then? Like hell we
[01:31:55] we call the police then? Like hell we do.
[01:31:58] do. What do you do then? We don't call the
[01:32:00] What do you do then? We don't call the police because if the Greek police are
[01:32:03] police because if the Greek police are like the Greek police are supposed to
[01:32:05] like the Greek police are supposed to be, if the Greek police are like the
[01:32:07] be, if the Greek police are like the Mexican police, then they will abuse
[01:32:10] Mexican police, then they will abuse those women systematically. They will
[01:32:12] those women systematically. They will not solve the problem. I agree. But then
[01:32:16] not solve the problem. I agree. But then you organize your own police. Okay. We
[01:32:18] you organize your own police. Okay. We do not. If we call in a power that is
[01:32:22] do not. If we call in a power that is alien to us, then we are reproducing
[01:32:24] alien to us, then we are reproducing their power. What we need, of course, is
[01:32:27] their power. What we need, of course, is forms of community control over behavior
[01:32:31] forms of community control over behavior in the garden. Not our own police, but
[01:32:34] in the garden. Not our own police, but certainly our own forms of vigilance,
[01:32:36] certainly our own forms of vigilance, our own forms of control of behavior.
[01:32:39] our own forms of control of behavior. And that ex is exactly what the the the
[01:32:42] And that ex is exactly what the the the the the gardens are the garden is doing
[01:32:45] the the gardens are the garden is doing in Greece and many other community
[01:32:47] in Greece and many other community gardens.
[01:32:50] gardens. Okay. So, we need power, but we need our
[01:32:53] Okay. So, we need power, but we need our own power, not a power that we can take.
[01:32:55] own power, not a power that we can take. A real movement, communism. And that's
[01:32:58] A real movement, communism. And that's what we have all said, the three of us,
[01:33:00] what we have all said, the three of us, is communism. Is the real movement of
[01:33:03] is communism. Is the real movement of anti- capitalist struggle. But that real
[01:33:05] anti- capitalist struggle. But that real movement of anti- capitalist struggle,
[01:33:07] movement of anti- capitalist struggle, where do we find it? Where do we find
[01:33:10] where do we find it? Where do we find the antagonism? We don't have to look to
[01:33:13] the antagonism? We don't have to look to intellectual property or or to China or
[01:33:16] intellectual property or or to China or to Greece or to Mexico or to Venezuela.
[01:33:21] to Greece or to Mexico or to Venezuela. The antagonism of capitalism is part of
[01:33:23] The antagonism of capitalism is part of our everyday lives. And the struggle
[01:33:26] our everyday lives. And the struggle against capital is part of our everyday
[01:33:29] against capital is part of our everyday lives and not only of people who come to
[01:33:31] lives and not only of people who come to Marxism 2010, but it is part of the
[01:33:36] Marxism 2010, but it is part of the everyday life of all of us who live in
[01:33:38] everyday life of all of us who live in capitalism. And that is why
[01:33:42] capitalism. And that is why communism is a real possibility. It is a
[01:33:45] communism is a real possibility. It is a real possibility because it is a real
[01:33:48] real possibility because it is a real actuality. And that's where we have to
[01:33:51] actuality. And that's where we have to start from. Thank
[01:34:04] you. Okay.

The idea of communism. Debate Callinicos Zizek and Holloway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfZkfCA5YKU
Translation: es

[00:10] De acuerdo.
[00:12] Um, me gustaría empezar la reunión.
[00:15] Um, me gustaría dar la bienvenida a todos a esta sesión de Marxismo 2010.
[00:19] Um, esta noche discutiremos la idea del comunismo.
[00:22] Uh, mi nombre es Sally Campbell.
[00:24] Trabajo para Bookmarks Publications y presidiré la sesión.
[00:29] Um, tenemos tres excelentes ponentes uh en el panel esta noche.
[00:33] Uh, en primer lugar, tenemos a Alex Kolinos.
[00:35] Es un miembro destacado del Socialist Workers College.
[00:46] Él es um es profesor de estudios europeos en el King's College de Londres.
[00:49] También es autor de muchos libros, el más reciente de los cuales es Bonfire of Illusions.
[00:52] Y también hay una nueva edición de sus clásicas ideas revolucionarias de KL Marx.
[00:58] También tenemos um John Holay.
[01:08] Um es profesor en el Instituto de Ciencias Sociales y Humanidades de la Universidad Autónoma
[01:11] Humanidades en la Universidad Autónoma de Puebla, México.
[01:14] Él es el autor um en Puebla, México.
[01:16] Él es el autor um probablemente más famoso de Change the World Without Taking Power.
[01:17] del cual hay una nueva edición que saldrá en septiembre.
[01:21] Y también su libro más reciente es Crack Capitalism.
[01:23] Um y finalmente, tenemos a Slavo Xek.
[01:31] Um él es uh crítico cultural y filósofo, autor de docenas de libros.
[01:35] y el último es Living in the End Times.
[01:40] Um voy a presentar a cada uno de los ponentes um para exponer su caso.
[01:43] Um mientras ellos lo hacen, los miembros del equipo con las camisetas rojas estarán repartiendo hojas para los ponentes.
[01:47] Así que para las mil personas en esta sala que quieran contribuir o hacer una pregunta o plantear un punto a cualquiera de nuestros ponentes um por favor tomen una hoja, rellénenla y entréguenla.
[01:56] Así que después de que todos hayan presentado um el tema, lo abriremos entonces a la discusión del público.
[02:00] Así que primero presentaré a Alex Kenos.
[02:11] Muchas gracias.
[02:14] Eh, hace un par de meses visité Sudáfrica y fui al museo del apartheid en Johannesburgo, que es un registro fantástico de todo el sistema de opresión racial en Sudáfrica.
[02:27] Y a mitad de camino recorriendo el museo, rompí a llorar.
[02:34] Y la razón por la que lo hice fue porque me di cuenta de que el apartheid, este sistema institucionalizado de opresión, se había reducido a objetos en un museo.
[02:43] Durante las primeras décadas de mi vida, me crié con la suposición de que el apartheid era parte del mobiliario permanente del mundo.
[02:56] Y de repente me encontré con algo que había sabido intelectualmente pero estaba experimentando emocionalmente: que el apartheid, este denso sistema de opresión, había desaparecido.
[03:10] Por supuesto, eso deja muchos otros males en el mundo, pero eso
[03:12] dünyada başka kötülükler var ama o özel baskı biçimi ortadan kalkmıştı
[03:14] özel baskı biçimi ortadan kalkmıştı ve bu harika bir andı.
[03:16] Şimdi, bir gün yapmak istediğim şey, belki de birkaç on yıl sonra, ve oldukça eğilmiş durumdayım
[03:21] ve bir sopanın üzerinde, bir müzeye gitmek [Alkış]
[03:26] [Alkış] [Müzik]
[03:31] [Müzik] kapitalizm.
[03:34] Kapitalizmin aynı statüye indirgenmesini istiyorum, bir parti gibi.
[03:37] Ama bu şu soruyu ortaya çıkarıyor, eğer bir kapitalizm müzesine gitseydim nerede olurdum?
[03:45] Ve cevap komünizmde, komünist bir toplumda.
[03:48] Şimdi, her şeyden çok, çünkü komünizm alternatifin adıdır
[03:54] kapitalizme.
[03:56] Klasik Marksist komünizm anlayışı hakkında bir şeyler söylemek istiyorum, ancak bu, özellikle geçmiş birkaç yılda entelektüel tartışmalara en azından yeniden dönmüş bir fikirdir
[04:12] birkaç yıl, özellikle oradaki Slavoy'un müdahaleleri sonucunda.
[04:14] oradaki Slavoy'un ve Fransız uh filozof Alan Badu'nun müdahaleleri.
[04:18] Ve bunun yaşanmış olmasının çok faydalı olduğunu düşünüyorum çünkü kapitalizmin son derece ciddi ve bence uzayan bir kriziyle karşı karşıyayız.
[04:25] Ve bu nedenle kapitalizmi düzenlemekten, kapitalizmi reforme etmekten değil, onu tamamen farklı bir şeyle değiştirmekten bahsetmemiz gerekiyor.
[04:36] Ve komünizm alternatifle ilgilidir.
[04:38] Komünizm fikri, kapitalizme alternatif fikriyle ilgilidir.
[04:42] Peki şimdi komünizm nedir?
[04:46] Marks ve Engels, komünist manifestoda komünizmin klasik bir tanımını verdiler ve bizim için komünizmin mevcut durumu ortadan kaldıran gerçek hareket olduğunu söylediler.
[05:01] Ve bence oradaki komünizmin, en azından marks için öncelikli olarak bir olmadığını düşünmemiz çok önemli bir fikir.
[05:12] uh no es para marcas al menos principalmente una idea.
[05:15] El comunismo es la idea real.
[05:19] El comunismo es el proceso revolucionario real que abole el capitalismo y en ello está implícito un
[05:22] capitalismo y en ello está implícito un grado de escepticismo sobre demasiada
[05:24] grado de escepticismo sobre demasiada discusión de la idea de comunismo
[05:27] discusión de la idea de comunismo comunismo en oposición al desarrollo
[05:29] comunismo en oposición al desarrollo como lo pusieron Marx y Engels de movimientos reales
[05:31] como lo pusieron Marx y Engels de movimientos reales que pueden empezar a destruirlo
[05:34] movimientos que pueden empezar a destruirlo como sistema.
[05:36] Pero por supuesto eso no es todo lo que Marx dice sobre el comunismo.
[05:38] Él llama en el capital él llama al comunismo la
[05:41] llama en el capital él llama al comunismo la regla de los productores asociados.
[05:44] En otras palabras, aquellos que realizan el
[05:46] otras palabras, aquellos que realizan el trabajo, aquellos que producen la riqueza
[05:49] trabajo, aquellos que producen la riqueza tomando colectivamente el control de la
[05:51] tomando colectivamente el control de los recursos productivos de la sociedad.
[05:54] recursos productivos de la sociedad. Y en la crítica del programa GA, él um
[05:57] la crítica del programa GA, él um habla sobre el tipo de principio que
[06:00] habla sobre el tipo de principio que gobernaría una sociedad comunista.
[06:02] gobernaría una sociedad comunista. Y este dice que sería el principio de
[06:05] este dice que sería el principio de de cada uno según sus capacidades y
[06:07] de cada uno según sus capacidades y a cada uno según sus necesidades
[06:11] a cada uno según sus necesidades que es si lo piensas bien un
[06:14] lo cual es si lo piensas es un principio radicalmente igualitario.
[06:17] principio radicalmente igualitario.
[06:19] Distribuyes en función de lo que la gente necesita y exiges a la gente no lo que estás preparado para pagarles.
[06:24] En otras palabras, no consigues que la gente participe en la producción sobre la base de incentivos materiales.
[06:31] los consigues para que participen en función de las habilidades que puedan aportar a todo el proceso de producción de cosas.
[06:40] Ahora, no creo que las discusiones muy limitadas de Marx sobre el comunismo sean el fin de la historia de ninguna manera, entre otras cosas por la crítica de Marx al socialismo utópico.
[06:52] en otras palabras, de construir esquemas ideales de una uh de una de una sociedad comunista comunista.
[06:59] Dice, creo, muy poco sobre cómo sería una sociedad comunista.
[07:04] Y esa es una discusión que necesitamos continuar.
[07:09] Pero me parece que fundamentalmente en esas intuiciones relativamente breves que encontramos en Marx, obtenemos
[07:15] intuiciones que encontramos en Marx, obtenemos la base de una buena comprensión de la base de una buena comprensión del comunismo.
[07:20] comunismo.
[07:22] Y me parece mejor que algunas de las cosas que se han planteado en los debates actuales como Badu en sus escritos sobre el comunismo vacila entre una noción muy abstracta del comunismo como esencialmente el ideal de igualdad que parece ser demasiado abstracto porque no dice nada sobre cómo se organiza la producción.
[07:44] Alternativamente, es muy es demasiado concreto porque habla, pasa de hablar del comunismo con c minúscula, la alternativa al capitalismo a hablar del comunismo con C mayúscula.
[07:57] En otras palabras, los partidos comunistas realmente existentes que, más a menudo que no, son partidos estalinistas comprometidos por todo tipo de fallos muy fundamentales.
[08:08] Y creo que hay dos cosas que faltan en la discusión de Badu.
[08:09] En primer lugar, la crítica de la economía política
[08:15] todo, la crítica de la economía política porque cuando Marx habla de lo real
[08:18] porque cuando Marx habla del movimiento real para la abolición de la
[08:21] movimiento real para la abolición del estado de cosas presente, el suelo del que
[08:24] estado de cosas presente, el suelo del que ese movimiento real crece, el
[08:27] que ese movimiento real crece, la base para cualquier movimiento real
[08:30] base para cualquier movimiento real hacia el comunismo es proporcionada por
[08:32] hacia el comunismo es proporcionada por la sociedad capitalista y sus
[08:33] sociedad capitalista y sus contradicciones. Y Badu no dice nada
[08:35] contradicciones. Y Badu no dice nada sobre eso. En segundo lugar, lo que falta
[08:38] sobre eso. En segundo lugar, lo que falta en la discusión de Badu sobre el comunismo es
[08:41] en la discusión de Badu sobre el comunismo es la autoemancipación. La autoemancipación
[08:43] autoemancipación. La autoemancipación de la clase trabajadora que fue central para
[08:46] de la clase trabajadora que fue central para la concepción de Marx de cómo la sociedad sería
[08:48] la concepción de Marx de cómo la sociedad sería transformada. En otras palabras, el
[08:50] sería transformada. En otras palabras, el logro del comunismo es el acto de
[08:53] logro del comunismo es el acto de los oprimidos y explotados mismos.
[08:55] los oprimidos y explotados mismos. Nadie más puede hacerlo por ellos. Ahora
[08:58] Nadie más puede hacerlo por ellos. Ahora, volviendo a Slavoi y John, creo
[09:02] volviendo a Slavoi y John, creo que ambos ciertamente están de acuerdo sobre la
[09:04] que ambos ciertamente están de acuerdo sobre la necesidad de la crítica de la economía
[09:06] necesidad de la crítica de la economía política. Um, estoy seguro de que John está de acuerdo
[09:09] economía. Um, estoy seguro de que John está de acuerdo sobre la autoemancipación, aunque yo
[09:12] sobre la autoemancipación, aunque creo que tenemos diferentes entendimientos
[09:13] creo que tenemos diferentes entendimientos de la autoemancipación. Me interesaría
[09:15] de la autoemancipación. Me interesaría saber qué pensó Slavoy
[09:18] saber lo que Slavoy pensó pensó pensó sobre eso porque me parece crítico para cualquier noción noción de una transformación comunista genuina o la actualidad de una transformación comunista.
[09:27] Pero creo que hay un punto en el que sí estamos en desacuerdo y quiero pasar el último tiempo que tengo.
[09:32] ¿Cuánto me queda?
[09:34] Eh siete minutos.
[09:36] Siete minutos.
[09:38] Bien.
[09:38] Eso debería ser suficiente.
[09:38] hablando de algo en lo que creo que estaremos en desacuerdo, y es que las discusiones contemporáneas sobre el comunismo tienden a centrarse en la idea de los bienes comunes, que es una idea muy extendida en la izquierda radical radical de todo el mundo
[09:54] y muy a menudo la gente habla, tan poderosa es la idea de los bienes comunes que la gente habla del comunismo como opuesto al comunismo, ahora, ¿cuál es la idea aquí?
[10:04] la idea es que hay muchas cosas buenas en el mundo.
[10:07] Ya sean recursos naturales o la creatividad humana en sus frutos, y estas cosas buenas son esencialmente, en cierto sentido, colectivas
[10:20] Esencialmente, en cierto sentido, de propiedad colectiva.
[10:23] Y el problema es que el capitalismo llega y se apropia de todas estas cosas buenas y las convierte para sus propios fines.
[10:31] Y eso es fundamentalmente no solo lo que está mal en el capitalismo, sino lo que impulsa el capitalismo.
[10:36] Ahora bien, por supuesto, es cierto que hay muchas cosas buenas en el mundo que son producto de la acción colectiva o que se apropian colectivamente de alguna manera.
[10:45] Y es absolutamente cierto que el capitalismo llega todo el tiempo y se apropia de ello.
[10:50] Marx habla de la acumulación primitiva de capital, la apropiación original de los recursos productivos clave que hace posible el capitalismo como sistema.
[11:01] Pero John y David Harvey y otras personas han enfatizado que esta esta uh apropiación de lo que es de propiedad común es una realidad continua del capitalismo.
[11:13] No es solo algo que sucedió en el pasado.
[11:16] Es algo que sucede todo el tiempo.
[11:20] Pero creo que es un error simplemente reducir lo que hace el capitalismo a
[11:23] simplemente para reducir lo que hace el capitalismo con eso.
[11:23] Y hay gente que hace eso.
[11:24] eso.
[11:24] Y hay gente que hace eso.
[11:26] No digo que ni Savvoy ni John lo hagan, pero por ejemplo, Hart y Negri sí.
[11:28] por ejemplo, en su libro más reciente, Commonwealth, y el efecto um lo que esencialmente hacen es reducir el capitalismo a la apropiación de los comunes.
[11:37] Y lo que eso significa es que el capitalismo es esencialmente una fuerza externa y parasitaria que llega, se apodera de las cosas y las convierte para sus propios fines.
[11:50] Creo que esto es una profunda incomprensión de Marx y, lo que es más importante, una profunda incomprensión del capitalismo porque para Marx, el capital, insiste en que esta es una relación social y es una relación social definida fundamentalmente por todo tipo de otras cosas, la relación explotadora entre el capital y el trabajo asalariado y la relación entre el capital y el trabajo asalariado es una interna, es una intrínseca para cada una de las partes de la relación.
[12:22] Los trabajadores
[12:24] partes de la relación.
[12:26] Los trabajadores que son explotados y los capitalistas que son explotados y los capitalistas que explotan a quienes explotan se definen socialmente por la conexión um uh entre sí.
[12:33] ¿Por qué importa?
[12:37] Quiero decir, esto puede sonar como un extraño poco de abstracción filosófica en la que estoy participando.
[12:43] Importa porque nos ayuda a entender lo que está sucediendo en el capitalismo hoy.
[12:45] Miremos a China.
[12:51] el tipo de mundo de fantasía de los apologistas del capitalismo.
[12:54] Si miramos lo que está sucediendo en China hoy, por supuesto que es cierto que los bienes comunes han sido apropiados, que de todas formas la nueva clase capitalista privada en desarrollo se establece como una fuerza social y económica al apoderarse de tierras de propiedad colectiva, robar todo tipo de cosas y así sucesivamente.
[13:15] Pero eso no es lo crítico de lo que está sucediendo en China.
[13:18] Lo que vemos en China es un proceso de desarrollo capitalista muy rápido que implica una enorme
[13:27] desarrollo que implica una enorme creación y expansión de lo humano
[13:29] creación y expansión de las capacidades productivas humanas al traer
[13:32] capacidades productivas al reunir a los trabajadores en condiciones donde
[13:34] los trabajadores juntos en condiciones donde son explotados colectivamente.
[13:36] Existe este lugar llamado Foxcon um, que es una empresa extraordinaria que produce una gran cantidad de los iPads, iPods y iPhones y demás que todo el mundo desea tanto, que involucra un complejo en el sureste de China donde 300.000 trabajadores están empleados en la misma fábrica, ciudad fábrica.
[14:01] eso es crucial para el tipo de desarrollo capitalista que está teniendo lugar en China.
[14:07] Um y y lo que implica es una vasta expansión de las capacidades productivas humanas pero sobre la base de la explotación más intensiva.
[14:19] Lo que esto significa es, y esto es algo en lo que Marx insiste mucho, que el comunismo no se trata solo de um um de tomar
[14:28] El comunismo no se trata solo de recuperar lo que el capital robó, los recursos de propiedad colectiva que preexistían a la formación de la relación capitalista.
[14:40] Lo que el comunismo, de manera mucho más importante, se trata de es apoderarse de las capacidades productivas que se crean dentro del marco de la relación capitalista.
[14:54] marca como esta visión maravillosamente contradictoria del capitalismo como una fuerza desastrosa y destructiva, pero también una enorme expansión de los poderes productivos humanos de la que la revolución se trata de tomar el control.
[15:09] ¿Por qué importa esto políticamente?
[15:11] Importa políticamente porque en última instancia se reduce a la cuestión del poder.
[15:18] Como dije, la relación entre capital y trabajo asalariado es interna.
[15:25] Explotador y explotado están unidos en esta relación íntima de
[15:29] relación íntima de interdependencia.
[15:32] Interdependencia, eso es interdependencia.
[15:32] La interdependencia es crítica.
[15:36] En otras palabras, el trabajador depende del capitalista porque el trabajador solo posee su fuerza de trabajo.
[15:41] El trabajador tiene que ir a trabajar para un capitalista y ser explotado y todo eso.
[15:46] Pero hay otro lado en eso.
[15:48] El capitalista depende del trabajador.
[15:51] La mano de obra del trabajador es la fuente de las ganancias del capitalista.
[15:56] Cuando la mano de obra del trabajador se detiene, entonces el capitalismo se detiene.
[15:59] Y esto no es solo una proposición abstracta.
[16:01] Porque de nuevo, volvamos al caso de China, el llamado futuro del capitalismo.
[16:06] Lo que hemos visto en las últimas semanas son explosiones de huelgas de esta nueva clase trabajadora, paralizando los procesos de producción, obteniendo enormes aumentos salariales, cambiando toda la relación de poder entre el capital y el trabajo asalariado.
[16:26] Y esa es la conclusión sobre el comunismo.
[16:26] Y de hecho es
[16:30] línea sobre el comunismo.
[16:32] Y en realidad es una idea que preexiste a Marx, que se remonta a Blanke y a los comunistas radicales franceses.
[16:38] que la fuerza que va a lograr el comunismo es precisamente esa masa de trabajadores asalariados que están expresados, que están oprimidos y explotados por el capitalismo.
[16:49] Pero precisamente porque están explotados tienen la capacidad de llevar a cabo esta revolución que puede sacarnos del capitalismo al comunismo.
[16:57] del capitalismo al comunismo.
[17:05] [Aplausos]
[17:08] [Música]
[17:10] Okay, gracias Alex. Nuestro próximo orador es Slavo.
[17:14] Uh, es tan agradable que podamos entrar inmediatamente en un diálogo porque extrañamente me dejaste hacer un comentario de mal gusto cuando dijiste que estabas allí en Sudáfrica y luego empezaste a llorar, uh, uh, llorando.
[17:25] Pensé que era porque Inglaterra perdió contra Alemania y Okay, pero me reí.
[17:30] a Alemania y Vale, pero me reí.
[17:30] Me reí cuando Inglaterra Vale.
[17:34] Yo también lo hice para compartir nuestra oposición al patriotismo barato.
[17:39] Cuando Eslovenia perdió contra Inglaterra, mi hijo casi fue golpeado por sus compañeros porque era de Inglaterra.
[17:44] Así que, estamos todos aquí.
[17:46] Pero déjenme pasar a un trabajo más serio.
[17:51] Uh uh uh sí, comparto profundamente tu maravillosa idea.
[17:55] nos estamos mirando a nosotros mismos desde el futuro museo del capitalismo.
[18:00] Pero la primera mala noticia que tenemos hoy, estuve en un par de ellas es que, desafortunadamente, los museos del comunismo ya existen en prácticamente todos los países post-comunistas europeos.
[18:11] Visité uno en Budapest, por ejemplo, cuando compré una cosa maravillosa, una vela con la figura de Stalin, y luego enciendes una vela y Stalin se derrite.
[18:24] Esta es la crítica antitalionista más efectiva que se puede obtener.
[18:26] Vale, sigamos, donde también lo que también comparto contigo es uh al menos el
[18:32] También compartir con usted es eh al menos la primera parte de su crítica a Badu que
[18:35] primera parte de su crítica a Badu, es decir, su
[18:38] es decir, su total consciente no se le puede acusar
[18:41] total consciente no se le puede acusar de que no lo viera.
[18:43] de que no lo viera.
[18:43] Él está absolutamente conscientemente opuesto a ello de la propia
[18:46] conscientemente opuesto a ello de la propia noción de que la crítica de lo político
[18:49] noción de que la crítica de la economía política tiene un lugar, un lugar directo en
[18:52] economía tiene un lugar, un lugar directo en lo que él llama la idea de comunismo.
[18:56] lo que él llama la idea de comunismo.
[18:56] Mi punto aquí habría sido simplemente que
[18:59] punto aquí habría sido simplemente que uno debería lo que uno debería hacer con
[19:02] uno debería lo que uno debería hacer con respecto a Badu es porque Badu está aquí
[19:05] respecto a Badu es porque Badu está aquí aunque él lo niegue, obviamente canan.
[19:07] aunque él lo niegue, obviamente canan.
[19:07] Incluso llama en su hipótesis comunista a la idea de comunismo un tipo
[19:09] Incluso llama en su hipótesis comunista a la idea de comunismo un tipo de idea regulativa canan y él
[19:12] de idea regulativa canan y él se opone absolutamente a cualquier demasiado estrecha
[19:16] se opone absolutamente a cualquier demasiado estrecha mediación entre esta idea y eh la vida social real.
[19:18] mediación entre esta idea y eh la vida social real.
[19:21] la vida social real.
[19:21] Para él esto ya es historicismo.
[19:24] Para él esto ya es historicismo.
[19:24] Caes en la trampa historicista.
[19:27] trampa historicista.
[19:27] Lo que creo es que deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.
[19:29] Lo que creo es que deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.
[19:29] deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.
[19:31] deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.
[19:31] Hegel para Hegel la idea es algo que
[19:34] Hegel için fikir, gerçekliğe karşıt bir idealden ibaret değildir
[19:37] gerçekliğe karşıt bir idealden ibaret değildir, ancak kendi içinde kendi gerçekleştirme gücüne sahip bir şeydir
[19:40] ancak kendi içinde kendi gerçekleştirme gücüne sahip bir şeydir ki bu
[19:43] aşırı idealist gelebilir ancak tam da budur
[19:46] aşırı idealist gelebilir ancak tam da Marx'ın ona atıfta bulunduğunuzda söylediği şeydir
[19:49] Marx'ın ona atıfta bulunduğunuzda söylediği şeydir, yani fikri tasavvur etmek
[19:52] yani komünizm fikrini gerçek bir hareket olarak tasavvur etmek belki de
[19:55] komünizm fikrini gerçek bir hareket olarak tasavvur etmek belki de küçük farklılıklarımız nerede başladığıyla ilgilidir
[19:59] küçük farklılıklarımız nerede konumlandırılacağıyla ilgilidir
[20:01] bu gerçek hareketleri konumlandırmak. Eee, başlayayım
[20:05] bu gerçek hareketleri. Eee, oldukça ampirik bazı gözlemlerle başlayayım. Biliyor musunuz
[20:08] oldukça ampirik bazı gözlemlerle. Biliyor musunuz, bu olduğunda Çin'deydim
[20:11] biliyor musunuz, bu olduğunda Çin'deydim, üç dört hafta önce bu grevler
[20:14] üç dört hafta önce bu grevler başladığında. Ve belki bu bir
[20:16] başladı. Ve belki bu bir manipülasyon, bana orada söylenenler ama ben
[20:19] manipülasyon, bana orada söylenenler ama bana resmi temsilciler tarafından söylenmedi.
[20:21] bana resmi temsilciler tarafından söylenmedi. Bana belki tanırsınız diye bu kişiler tarafından söylendi
[20:23] belki tanırsınız diye bu kişiler tarafından söylendi, biri Quay ve diğer eleştirel
[20:24] biri Quay ve diğer eleştirel entelektüeller. Bana bu
[20:27] entellektüeller. Bana bu grevlerin kesinlikle hoşgörüldüğünü, hatta bir noktaya kadar
[20:30] grevlerin kesinlikle hoşgörüldüğünü, hatta bir noktaya kadar nasıl denir, teşvik edildiğini söylediler

The idea of communism. Debate Callinicos Zizek and Holloway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfZkfCA5YKU
Translation: es

[00:10] Okay.
De acuerdo.

[00:12] Um, I'd like to get the meeting started.
Um, me gustaría empezar la reunión.

[00:15] Um, I'd like to welcome everyone to this session of Marxism 2010.
Um, me gustaría dar la bienvenida a todos a esta sesión de Marxismo 2010.

[00:19] Um, this evening we'll be discussing the idea of communism.
Um, esta noche discutiremos la idea del comunismo.

[00:22] Uh, my name is Sally Campbell.
Uh, mi nombre es Sally Campbell.

[00:24] I work for Bookmarks Publications and I'll be chairing the session.
Trabajo para Bookmarks Publications y presidiré la sesión.

[00:29] Um, we've got three excellent speakers uh on the panel tonight.
Um, tenemos tres excelentes ponentes uh en el panel esta noche.

[00:33] Uh, first of all, we've got Alex Kolinos.
Uh, en primer lugar, tenemos a Alex Kolinos.

[00:35] He's a leading member of the Socialist Workers College.
Es un miembro destacado del Socialist Workers College.

[00:46] He's um he's a professor of European studies at King's College London.
Él es um es profesor de estudios europeos en el King's College de Londres.

[00:49] He's also the author of lots of books, the most recent of which is Bonfire of Illusions.
También es autor de muchos libros, el más reciente de los cuales es Bonfire of Illusions.

[00:52] And there's also a new edition of his classic revolutionary ideas of KL Marx.
Y también hay una nueva edición de sus clásicas ideas revolucionarias de KL Marx.

[00:58] We also have um John Holay.
También tenemos um John Holay.

[01:08] Um he's a professor at the Institute of Social Sciences and Humanities at the Autonomous University
Um es profesor en el Instituto de Ciencias Sociales y Humanidades de la Universidad Autónoma

[01:11] Humanities at the Autonomous University in Pueblo, Mexico.
Humanidades en la Universidad Autónoma de Puebla, México.

[01:14] He's the author um in Pueblo, Mexico.
Él es el autor um en Puebla, México.

[01:16] He's the author um probably most famously of Change the World Without Taking Power.
Él es el autor um probablemente más famoso de Change the World Without Taking Power.

[01:17] of which there's a new edition coming in September.
del cual hay una nueva edición que saldrá en septiembre.

[01:21] And also his most recent book is Crack Capitalism.
Y también su libro más reciente es Crack Capitalism.

[01:23] Um and finally, we have Slavo Xek.
Um y finalmente, tenemos a Slavo Xek.

[01:31] Um he's uh cultural critic and philosopher, author of dozens of books.
Um él es uh crítico cultural y filósofo, autor de docenas de libros.

[01:35] and the latest is Living in the End Times.
y el último es Living in the End Times.

[01:40] Um I'm going to introduce each of the speakers um to to put their case.
Um voy a presentar a cada uno de los ponentes um para exponer su caso.

[01:43] Um while they're doing that, members of the team in the red t-shirts will be going around with speaker slips.
Um mientras ellos lo hacen, los miembros del equipo con las camisetas rojas estarán repartiendo hojas para los ponentes.

[01:47] So for the thousand people in this room who want to contribute or ask a question or or put a point to any of our speakers um please take a slip fill it in and hand it in.
Así que para las mil personas en esta sala que quieran contribuir o hacer una pregunta o plantear un punto a cualquiera de nuestros ponentes um por favor tomen una hoja, rellénenla y entréguenla.

[01:56] So after they've all introduced um the topic we'll open it up then to the discussion from the floor.
Así que después de que todos hayan presentado um el tema, lo abriremos entonces a la discusión del público.

[02:00] So first of all I'll introduce Alex Kenos.
Así que primero presentaré a Alex Kenos.

[02:11] Thanks very much.
Muchas gracias.

[02:14] Uh a couple of months ago I was visiting South Africa and I I went to the the museum of aparate in Johannesburg which is a fantastic record of the whole system of racial oppression in South Africa.
Eh, hace un par de meses visité Sudáfrica y fui al museo del apartheid en Johannesburgo, que es un registro fantástico de todo el sistema de opresión racial en Sudáfrica.

[02:27] And halfway through going round to the museum, I burst into tears.
Y a mitad de camino recorriendo el museo, rompí a llorar.

[02:34] And the reason why I did was because I realized that a partate this whole institutionalized system of oppression had been reduced to items in a museum.
Y la razón por la que lo hice fue porque me di cuenta de que el apartheid, este sistema institucionalizado de opresión, se había reducido a objetos en un museo.

[02:43] I for the first few decades of my life, I was brought up uh on the assumption that a a partate was part of the permanent furniture of the world.
Durante las primeras décadas de mi vida, me crié con la suposición de que el apartheid era parte del mobiliario permanente del mundo.

[02:56] And suddenly I was brought up with something that I'd known intellectually but was experiencing emotionally that apartate this dense system of oppression had gone.
Y de repente me encontré con algo que había sabido intelectualmente pero estaba experimentando emocionalmente: que el apartheid, este denso sistema de opresión, había desaparecido.

[03:10] Of course that leaves many other evils in the world but that
Por supuesto, eso deja muchos otros males en el mundo, pero eso

[03:12] other evils in the world but that particular form of oppression had gone
dünyada başka kötülükler var ama o özel baskı biçimi ortadan kalkmıştı

[03:14] particular form of oppression had gone and it was a wonderful moment.
özel baskı biçimi ortadan kalkmıştı ve bu harika bir andı.

[03:16] Now, what I'd like to do one day, and it may be in a few decades time, and I'm rather bent
Şimdi, bir gün yapmak istediğim şey, belki de birkaç on yıl sonra, ve oldukça eğilmiş durumdayım

[03:21] and on a stick, is to go to a museum of [Applause]
ve bir sopanın üzerinde, bir müzeye gitmek [Alkış]

[03:26] [Applause] [Music]
[Alkış] [Müzik]

[03:31] [Music] capitalism.
[Müzik] kapitalizm.

[03:34] I want capitalism to be reduced to the same status as a as a party.
Kapitalizmin aynı statüye indirgenmesini istiyorum, bir parti gibi.

[03:37] But that poses the question, what where would I be uh if if I went to uh a museum of of capitalism?
Ama bu şu soruyu ortaya çıkarıyor, eğer bir kapitalizm müzesine gitseydim nerede olurdum?

[03:45] And the answer is in communism in a communist society.
Ve cevap komünizmde, komünist bir toplumda.

[03:48] Now, because more than anything else, communism is the name of the alternative
Şimdi, her şeyden çok, çünkü komünizm alternatifin adıdır

[03:54] to to to to capitalism.
kapitalizme.

[03:56] I want to say something about the classical Marxist understanding of of communism, but it's an idea that has been ret returned at least to intellectual debate in the past few years, particularly as a result of
Klasik Marksist komünizm anlayışı hakkında bir şeyler söylemek istiyorum, ancak bu, özellikle geçmiş birkaç yılda entelektüel tartışmalara en azından yeniden dönmüş bir fikirdir

[04:12] few years, particularly as a result of the interventions by Slavoy over there.
birkaç yıl, özellikle oradaki Slavoy'un müdahaleleri sonucunda.

[04:14] the interventions by Slavoy over there and by the uh French uh philosopher Alan Badu.
oradaki Slavoy'un ve Fransız uh filozof Alan Badu'nun müdahaleleri.

[04:18] And I think this is a very useful thing to have happened because we're confronted with an extremely serious and I think protracted crisis of capitalism.
Ve bunun yaşanmış olmasının çok faydalı olduğunu düşünüyorum çünkü kapitalizmin son derece ciddi ve bence uzayan bir kriziyle karşı karşıyayız.

[04:25] And therefore we need to be talking not about regulating capitalism, not about reforming capitalism but by replacing it with something completely different.
Ve bu nedenle kapitalizmi düzenlemekten, kapitalizmi reforme etmekten değil, onu tamamen farklı bir şeyle değiştirmekten bahsetmemiz gerekiyor.

[04:36] And communism is about the alternative.
Ve komünizm alternatifle ilgilidir.

[04:38] The idea of communism is about the idea of the alternative to to to capitalism.
Komünizm fikri, kapitalizme alternatif fikriyle ilgilidir.

[04:42] So what is communism now?
Peki şimdi komünizm nedir?

[04:46] Marks and Engles gave a classic definition of of communism in the communist manifesto and they said for us communism is the real movement that abolishes the present state of things.
Marks ve Engels, komünist manifestoda komünizmin klasik bir tanımını verdiler ve bizim için komünizmin mevcut durumu ortadan kaldıran gerçek hareket olduğunu söylediler.

[05:01] And I think that that's a very important idea there that communism uh isn't for marks at least primarily an
Ve bence oradaki komünizmin, en azından marks için öncelikli olarak bir olmadığını düşünmemiz çok önemli bir fikir.

[05:12] uh isn't for marks at least primarily an an idea.
uh no es para marcas al menos principalmente una idea.

[05:15] Communism is the actual an idea.
El comunismo es la idea real.

[05:19] Communism is the actual revolutionary process that abolishes capitalism and implied in that is a
El comunismo es el proceso revolucionario real que abole el capitalismo y en ello está implícito un

[05:22] capitalism and implied in that is a degree of skepticism about too much
capitalismo y en ello está implícito un grado de escepticismo sobre demasiada

[05:24] degree of skepticism about too much discussion of the idea of communis
grado de escepticismo sobre demasiada discusión de la idea de comunismo

[05:27] discussion of the idea of communis communism as opposed to the development
discusión de la idea de comunismo comunismo en oposición al desarrollo

[05:29] communism as opposed to the development as Markx and Engles put it of real
comunismo en oposición al desarrollo como lo pusieron Marx y Engels de movimientos reales

[05:31] as Markx and Engles put it of real movements that can begin to destroy it
como lo pusieron Marx y Engels de movimientos reales que pueden empezar a destruirlo

[05:34] movements that can begin to destroy it as a system.
movimientos que pueden empezar a destruirlo como sistema.

[05:36] But of course that isn't all that Markx says about communism.
Pero por supuesto eso no es todo lo que Marx dice sobre el comunismo.

[05:38] He call in capital he calls communism the
Él llama en el capital él llama al comunismo la

[05:41] call in capital he calls communism the rule of the associated producers.
llama en el capital él llama al comunismo la regla de los productores asociados.

[05:44] In other words, those who who perform the
En otras palabras, aquellos que realizan el

[05:46] other words, those who who perform the labor, those who produce the wealth
otras palabras, aquellos que realizan el trabajo, aquellos que producen la riqueza

[05:49] labor, those who produce the wealth collectively taking control of the
trabajo, aquellos que producen la riqueza tomando colectivamente el control de la

[05:51] collectively taking control of the productive resources of society.
tomando colectivamente el control de los recursos productivos de la sociedad.

[05:54] productive resources of society. And in the critique of the GA program, he um
recursos productivos de la sociedad. Y en la crítica del programa GA, él um

[05:57] the critique of the GA program, he um talks about the kind of principle that
la crítica del programa GA, él um habla sobre el tipo de principio que

[06:00] talks about the kind of principle that would govern a communist society.
habla sobre el tipo de principio que gobernaría una sociedad comunista.

[06:02] would govern a communist society. And this he says would be the principle of
gobernaría una sociedad comunista. Y este dice que sería el principio de

[06:05] this he says would be the principle of from each according to his abilities and
este dice que sería el principio de de cada uno según sus capacidades y

[06:07] from each according to his abilities and to to each according to his his needs
de cada uno según sus capacidades y a cada uno según sus necesidades

[06:11] to to each according to his his needs which is if you think think about it a
a cada uno según sus necesidades que es si lo piensas bien un

[06:14] which is if you think think about it a radi radically egalitarian principle.
lo cual es si lo piensas es un principio radicalmente igualitario.

[06:17] radi radically egalitarian principle.
principio radicalmente igualitario.

[06:19] You distribute on the basis of what people need and you demand from people not what you're prepared to pay them.
Distribuyes en función de lo que la gente necesita y exiges a la gente no lo que estás preparado para pagarles.

[06:24] Not in other words you don't get people to participate in production on the basis of material incentives.
En otras palabras, no consigues que la gente participe en la producción sobre la base de incentivos materiales.

[06:31] you get them to participate on the basis of what abilities they can bring to the whole process of producing things.
los consigues para que participen en función de las habilidades que puedan aportar a todo el proceso de producción de cosas.

[06:40] Now, I don't think Marx's very limited discussions of communism are the end of the story by any means, apart from anything else because of Marx's critique of utopian socialism.
Ahora, no creo que las discusiones muy limitadas de Marx sobre el comunismo sean el fin de la historia de ninguna manera, entre otras cosas por la crítica de Marx al socialismo utópico.

[06:52] in other words, of constructing ideal schemes of a um of a of a communist communist society.
en otras palabras, de construir esquemas ideales de una uh de una de una sociedad comunista comunista.

[06:59] He says, I think just too little about what a communist society would be like.
Dice, creo, muy poco sobre cómo sería una sociedad comunista.

[07:04] And that's a discussion that we need to need to continue.
Y esa es una discusión que necesitamos continuar.

[07:09] But it seems to me that fundamentally in those relatively brief intuitions that we find in Marx, we get
Pero me parece que fundamentalmente en esas intuiciones relativamente breves que encontramos en Marx, obtenemos

[07:15] intuitions that we find in Marx, we get the basis of of a good understanding of the basis of of a good understanding of communism.
intuiciones que encontramos en Marx, obtenemos la base de una buena comprensión de la base de una buena comprensión del comunismo.

[07:20] communism.
comunismo.

[07:22] And it seems to me better than some of the things that have been put around in the the current debates like Badu in his writings on communism vacasillates between a very abstract notion of communism as the essentially the ideal of equality which seems to be much too abstract because it says nothing about how production is organized.
Y me parece mejor que algunas de las cosas que se han planteado en los debates actuales como Badu en sus escritos sobre el comunismo vacila entre una noción muy abstracta del comunismo como esencialmente el ideal de igualdad que parece ser demasiado abstracto porque no dice nada sobre cómo se organiza la producción.

[07:44] Alternatively, he's very he's much too concrete because he talks he moves from talking about communism with a small C, the alternative to capitalism to talking about communism with a capital C.
Alternativamente, es muy es demasiado concreto porque habla, pasa de hablar del comunismo con c minúscula, la alternativa al capitalismo a hablar del comunismo con C mayúscula.

[07:57] In other words, actually existing communist parties who who more often than not are Stalinist parties compromised by all sorts of very fundamental failings.
En otras palabras, los partidos comunistas realmente existentes que, más a menudo que no, son partidos estalinistas comprometidos por todo tipo de fallos muy fundamentales.

[08:08] And I think there are two things that are missing from Badu's discussion.
Y creo que hay dos cosas que faltan en la discusión de Badu.

[08:09] First of all, the critique of political economy
En primer lugar, la crítica de la economía política

[08:15] all, the critique of political economy because when Markx talks about the real
todo, la crítica de la economía política porque cuando Marx habla de lo real

[08:18] because when Markx talks about the real movement for the abolition of the
porque cuando Marx habla del movimiento real para la abolición de la

[08:21] movement for the abolition of the present state of things, the soil from
movimiento real para la abolición del estado de cosas presente, el suelo del que

[08:24] present state of things, the soil from which that real movement grows, the
estado de cosas presente, el suelo del que ese movimiento real crece, el

[08:27] which that real movement grows, the grounding for any any real movement
que ese movimiento real crece, la base para cualquier movimiento real

[08:30] grounding for any any real movement towards communism is provided by
base para cualquier movimiento real hacia el comunismo es proporcionada por

[08:32] towards communism is provided by capitalist society and its
hacia el comunismo es proporcionada por la sociedad capitalista y sus

[08:33] capitalist society and its contradictions. And Badu says nothing
sociedad capitalista y sus contradicciones. Y Badu no dice nada

[08:35] contradictions. And Badu says nothing about that. Secondly, what's missing
contradicciones. Y Badu no dice nada sobre eso. En segundo lugar, lo que falta

[08:38] about that. Secondly, what's missing from Badu's discussion of communism is
sobre eso. En segundo lugar, lo que falta en la discusión de Badu sobre el comunismo es

[08:41] from Badu's discussion of communism is self-emancipation. The self-emancipation
en la discusión de Badu sobre el comunismo es la autoemancipación. La autoemancipación

[08:43] self-emancipation. The self-emancipation of the working class that was central to
autoemancipación. La autoemancipación de la clase trabajadora que fue central para

[08:46] of the working class that was central to Marx's conception of how society would
de la clase trabajadora que fue central para la concepción de Marx de cómo la sociedad sería

[08:48] Marx's conception of how society would be transformed. In other words, the
la concepción de Marx de cómo la sociedad sería transformada. En otras palabras, el

[08:50] be transformed. In other words, the achievement of communism is the act of
sería transformada. En otras palabras, el logro del comunismo es el acto de

[08:53] achievement of communism is the act of the oppressed and exploited themselves.
logro del comunismo es el acto de los oprimidos y explotados mismos.

[08:55] the oppressed and exploited themselves. No one else can do it for them. Now
los oprimidos y explotados mismos. Nadie más puede hacerlo por ellos. Ahora

[08:58] No one else can do it for them. Now turning to Slavoi and and John, I think
Nadie más puede hacerlo por ellos. Ahora, volviendo a Slavoi y John, creo

[09:02] turning to Slavoi and and John, I think that they both certainly agree about the
volviendo a Slavoi y John, creo que ambos ciertamente están de acuerdo sobre la

[09:04] that they both certainly agree about the necessity of the critique of political
que ambos ciertamente están de acuerdo sobre la necesidad de la crítica de la economía

[09:06] necessity of the critique of political economy. Um I'm sure that John agrees
necesidad de la crítica de la economía política. Um, estoy seguro de que John está de acuerdo

[09:09] economy. Um I'm sure that John agrees about self-emancipation, although I
economía. Um, estoy seguro de que John está de acuerdo sobre la autoemancipación, aunque yo

[09:12] about self-emancipation, although I think we have different understandings
sobre la autoemancipación, aunque creo que tenemos diferentes entendimientos

[09:13] think we have different understandings of self-emancipation. I'd be interested
creo que tenemos diferentes entendimientos de la autoemancipación. Me interesaría

[09:15] of self-emancipation. I'd be interested to know what Slavoy thought thought
de la autoemancipación. Me interesaría saber qué pensó Slavoy

[09:18] to know what Slavoy thought thought thought about that because it seems to me critical to any notion notion of a genuine communist transformation or the actuality of a communist transformation.
saber lo que Slavoy pensó pensó pensó sobre eso porque me parece crítico para cualquier noción noción de una transformación comunista genuina o la actualidad de una transformación comunista.

[09:27] But I think there is a point on which we do disagree and I want to spend the last um time that I have.
Pero creo que hay un punto en el que sí estamos en desacuerdo y quiero pasar el último tiempo que tengo.

[09:32] How much have I got left?
¿Cuánto me queda?

[09:34] Uh seven minutes.
Eh siete minutos.

[09:36] Seven minutes.
Siete minutos.

[09:38] Good.
Bien.

[09:38] That should be enough.
Eso debería ser suficiente.

[09:38] talking about something that where I think we will will disagree which is that contemporary discussions of communism tend to focus on the idea of the commons which is a very widespread idea on the radical radical left around the world
hablando de algo en lo que creo que estaremos en desacuerdo, y es que las discusiones contemporáneas sobre el comunismo tienden a centrarse en la idea de los bienes comunes, que es una idea muy extendida en la izquierda radical radical de todo el mundo

[09:54] and very often people talk uh so powerful is the idea of the commons that people talk about communism as opposed to communism now what's the idea here
y muy a menudo la gente habla, tan poderosa es la idea de los bienes comunes que la gente habla del comunismo como opuesto al comunismo, ahora, ¿cuál es la idea aquí?

[10:04] the idea is that there's lots of good stuff in the world.
la idea es que hay muchas cosas buenas en el mundo.

[10:07] Um either natural resources or human creativity in its fruits and these this good stuff is essentially in some sense collectively
Ya sean recursos naturales o la creatividad humana en sus frutos, y estas cosas buenas son esencialmente, en cierto sentido, colectivas

[10:20] Essentially in some sense collectively owned.
Esencialmente, en cierto sentido, de propiedad colectiva.

[10:23] And the problem is that capitalism comes along and pinches all this good stuff and turns it to its own purposes.
Y el problema es que el capitalismo llega y se apropia de todas estas cosas buenas y las convierte para sus propios fines.

[10:31] And that's fundamentally what's not simply what's wrong with capitalism, but what drives capitalism.
Y eso es fundamentalmente no solo lo que está mal en el capitalismo, sino lo que impulsa el capitalismo.

[10:36] Now, of course, it's true that there is lots of good stuff in the world that is a product of collective action or is collectively appropriated in some sort of way.
Ahora bien, por supuesto, es cierto que hay muchas cosas buenas en el mundo que son producto de la acción colectiva o que se apropian colectivamente de alguna manera.

[10:45] And it's absolutely true that capitalism is coming along all the time and pinching pinching it.
Y es absolutamente cierto que el capitalismo llega todo el tiempo y se apropia de ello.

[10:50] Marx talks about the primitive accumulation of capital, the original seizure of key productive resources that makes capitalism possible as a system.
Marx habla de la acumulación primitiva de capital, la apropiación original de los recursos productivos clave que hace posible el capitalismo como sistema.

[11:01] But John and David Harvey and other people have stressed that this this uh appropriation of what's commonly owned is a continuing reality of capitalism.
Pero John y David Harvey y otras personas han enfatizado que esta esta uh apropiación de lo que es de propiedad común es una realidad continua del capitalismo.

[11:13] It's not just something that happened in the past.
No es solo algo que sucedió en el pasado.

[11:16] It's something that goes on all the time.
Es algo que sucede todo el tiempo.

[11:20] But I think it's a mistake simply to reduce what capitalism does to
Pero creo que es un error simplemente reducir lo que hace el capitalismo a

[11:23] simply to reduce what capitalism does to that.
simplemente para reducir lo que hace el capitalismo con eso.

[11:23] And there are people who do that.
Y hay gente que hace eso.

[11:24] that.
eso.

[11:24] And there are people who do that.
Y hay gente que hace eso.

[11:26] I'm not saying that either Savvoy or John does, but for example, Hart and Negri do.
No digo que ni Savvoy ni John lo hagan, pero por ejemplo, Hart y Negri sí.

[11:28] for example, in their most recent book, Commonwealth, and the effect um what they essentially do is reduce capitalism to the appropriation of the of of the commons.
por ejemplo, en su libro más reciente, Commonwealth, y el efecto um lo que esencialmente hacen es reducir el capitalismo a la apropiación de los comunes.

[11:37] And what that means is capitalism is essentially an external and parasitic force that comes along and seizes things and you turns it to its own per purposes.
Y lo que eso significa es que el capitalismo es esencialmente una fuerza externa y parasitaria que llega, se apodera de las cosas y las convierte para sus propios fines.

[11:50] This I think is a profound misunderstanding of Markx and more importantly a profound misunderstanding of of capitalism because for Markx capital he insists on this is a social relation and it's a social relation defined by fundamentally all sorts of other things the exploitive relationship between capital and wage labor and the relationship between capital and wage labor is an internal it's an intrinsic one each of the parties to the relationship.
Creo que esto es una profunda incomprensión de Marx y, lo que es más importante, una profunda incomprensión del capitalismo porque para Marx, el capital, insiste en que esta es una relación social y es una relación social definida fundamentalmente por todo tipo de otras cosas, la relación explotadora entre el capital y el trabajo asalariado y la relación entre el capital y el trabajo asalariado es una interna, es una intrínseca para cada una de las partes de la relación.

[12:22] The workers
Los trabajadores

[12:24] parties to the relationship.
partes de la relación.

[12:26] The workers who are exploited and the capitalists who are exploited and the capitalists who are exploit who exploit them are defined socially by the the connection um uh with with each other.
Los trabajadores que son explotados y los capitalistas que son explotados y los capitalistas que explotan a quienes explotan se definen socialmente por la conexión um uh entre sí.

[12:33] Why do why does it matter?
¿Por qué importa?

[12:37] I mean this may sound like a a weird bit of kind of philosophical abstraction that I'm engaging in.
Quiero decir, esto puede sonar como un extraño poco de abstracción filosófica en la que estoy participando.

[12:43] It matters because it helps us to understand what's happening in capitalism today.
Importa porque nos ayuda a entender lo que está sucediendo en el capitalismo hoy.

[12:45] Let's look at China.
Miremos a China.

[12:51] the the kind of fantasy world of the apologists of of capitalism.
el tipo de mundo de fantasía de los apologistas del capitalismo.

[12:54] If we look at what's happening in China today, of course it's true that commons have been appropriated that in all sorts of ways the newly developing private capitalist class uh establishes itself as a social and economic force by grabbing collectively owned land, stealing all sorts of stuff and so on.
Si miramos lo que está sucediendo en China hoy, por supuesto que es cierto que los bienes comunes han sido apropiados, que de todas formas la nueva clase capitalista privada en desarrollo se establece como una fuerza social y económica al apoderarse de tierras de propiedad colectiva, robar todo tipo de cosas y así sucesivamente.

[13:15] But that's not what's critical to what's happening in China.
Pero eso no es lo crítico de lo que está sucediendo en China.

[13:18] What we see in China is a process of very rapid capital capitalist development that involves an enormous
Lo que vemos en China es un proceso de desarrollo capitalista muy rápido que implica una enorme

[13:27] development that involves an enormous creation and expansion of human
desarrollo que implica una enorme creación y expansión de lo humano

[13:29] creation and expansion of human productive capabilities by bringing
creación y expansión de las capacidades productivas humanas al traer

[13:32] productive capabilities by bringing workers together in conditions where
capacidades productivas al reunir a los trabajadores en condiciones donde

[13:34] workers together in conditions where they're collectively exploited.
los trabajadores juntos en condiciones donde son explotados colectivamente.

[13:36] There's this place called Foxcon um which is an extraordinary company which produces an awful lot of the iPads and iPods and iPhones and so on that everyone desires so so much which involves one complex in the southeast of China where 300,000 workers are employed in the same factory factory t factory town.
Existe este lugar llamado Foxcon um, que es una empresa extraordinaria que produce una gran cantidad de los iPads, iPods y iPhones y demás que todo el mundo desea tanto, que involucra un complejo en el sureste de China donde 300.000 trabajadores están empleados en la misma fábrica, ciudad fábrica.

[14:01] that's crucial to the kind of capitalist development that is is is is taking place in China.
eso es crucial para el tipo de desarrollo capitalista que está teniendo lugar en China.

[14:07] Um and and what it involves is a vast expansion in human productive capabilities but on the basis of the most intensive ex exploitation.
Um y y lo que implica es una vasta expansión de las capacidades productivas humanas pero sobre la base de la explotación más intensiva.

[14:19] What this means is, and this is something that com Marx is very insistent on, that communism isn't just um um about taking
Lo que esto significa es, y esto es algo en lo que Marx insiste mucho, que el comunismo no se trata solo de um um de tomar

[14:28] Communism isn't just um um about taking back what capital stole, what those collectively owned resources that pre-existed the the the the formation of the cap capital relation.
El comunismo no se trata solo de recuperar lo que el capital robó, los recursos de propiedad colectiva que preexistían a la formación de la relación capitalista.

[14:40] What communism much more importantly is is about is seizing the productive capacities that are created within the framework of the cap capital relation.
Lo que el comunismo, de manera mucho más importante, se trata de es apoderarse de las capacidades productivas que se crean dentro del marco de la relación capitalista.

[14:54] marks as this marvelously contradictory view of capitalism as a disastrous and destructive force but also an enormous expansion in human productive powers which revolution is about taking taking control of.
marca como esta visión maravillosamente contradictoria del capitalismo como una fuerza desastrosa y destructiva, pero también una enorme expansión de los poderes productivos humanos de la que la revolución se trata de tomar el control.

[15:09] Why does this matter politically?
¿Por qué importa esto políticamente?

[15:11] It matters politically because ultimately it comes down to the question of of power.
Importa políticamente porque en última instancia se reduce a la cuestión del poder.

[15:18] As I said, the relationship between capital and wage labor is an internal one.
Como dije, la relación entre capital y trabajo asalariado es interna.

[15:25] Exploiter and exploiter are bound together in this intimate relationship of
Explotador y explotado están unidos en esta relación íntima de

[15:29] intimate relationship of interdependence.
relación íntima de interdependencia.

[15:32] Interdependence, that's interdependence.
Interdependencia, eso es interdependencia.

[15:32] Interdependence, that's critical.
La interdependencia es crítica.

[15:36] In other words, the worker depends upon the capitalist because the worker only owns his or her labor power.
En otras palabras, el trabajador depende del capitalista porque el trabajador solo posee su fuerza de trabajo.

[15:41] The worker has to go and work for a capitalist and be exploited and all that sort of thing.
El trabajador tiene que ir a trabajar para un capitalista y ser explotado y todo eso.

[15:46] But there's another side to that.
Pero hay otro lado en eso.

[15:48] The capitalist depends on the worker.
El capitalista depende del trabajador.

[15:51] The worker's labor is the source of the capitalist profits.
La mano de obra del trabajador es la fuente de las ganancias del capitalista.

[15:56] When the worker's labor stops, then capitalism stops.
Cuando la mano de obra del trabajador se detiene, entonces el capitalismo se detiene.

[15:59] And this isn't just an abstract proposition.
Y esto no es solo una proposición abstracta.

[16:01] Because again, let's go back to the case of China, the so-called future of capitalism.
Porque de nuevo, volvamos al caso de China, el llamado futuro del capitalismo.

[16:06] What we've seen in recent weeks are explosions of strikes by this new working class, bringing to a halt processes of production, extracting massive pay pay increases, shifting the whole relation of power between capital and wage labor.
Lo que hemos visto en las últimas semanas son explosiones de huelgas de esta nueva clase trabajadora, paralizando los procesos de producción, obteniendo enormes aumentos salariales, cambiando toda la relación de poder entre el capital y el trabajo asalariado.

[16:26] And that's the bottom line about communism.
Y esa es la conclusión sobre el comunismo.

[16:26] And actually it's
Y de hecho es

[16:30] line about communism.
línea sobre el comunismo.

[16:32] And actually it's an idea that pre-exists Marx that goes back to Blanke and the radical French communists.
Y en realidad es una idea que preexiste a Marx, que se remonta a Blanke y a los comunistas radicales franceses.

[16:38] that what the force that is going to achieve communism is precisely that mass of wage labors who are expressed who are oppressed and exploited by capitalism.
que la fuerza que va a lograr el comunismo es precisamente esa masa de trabajadores asalariados que están expresados, que están oprimidos y explotados por el capitalismo.

[16:49] But precisely because they're exploited have the capacity to carry through this revolution that can take us out of capitalism to communism.
Pero precisamente porque están explotados tienen la capacidad de llevar a cabo esta revolución que puede sacarnos del capitalismo al comunismo.

[16:57] capitalism to communism.
del capitalismo al comunismo.

[17:05] [Applause]
[Aplausos]

[17:08] [Music]
[Música]

[17:10] Okay, thanks Alex. Our next speaker is Slavo.
Okay, gracias Alex. Nuestro próximo orador es Slavo.

[17:14] Uh, it's so nice that we can immediately uh enter into a dialogue because strangely that you first let me make a bad taste remark when you said you were down there in South Africa and then you started burst into cry uh uh crying.
Uh, es tan agradable que podamos entrar inmediatamente en un diálogo porque extrañamente me dejaste hacer un comentario de mal gusto cuando dijiste que estabas allí en Sudáfrica y luego empezaste a llorar, uh, uh, llorando.

[17:25] I thought because England lost to Germany and Okay, but I laughed.
Pensé que era porque Inglaterra perdió contra Alemania y Okay, pero me reí.

[17:30] to Germany and Okay, but I laughed.
a Alemania y Vale, pero me reí.

[17:30] I laughed when England Okay.
Me reí cuando Inglaterra Vale.

[17:34] I also did so to share our opposition to cheap patriotism.
Yo también lo hice para compartir nuestra oposición al patriotismo barato.

[17:39] When Slovenia lost to England, my son was almost beaten by his peers because he was for England.
Cuando Eslovenia perdió contra Inglaterra, mi hijo casi fue golpeado por sus compañeros porque era de Inglaterra.

[17:44] So, we are all here.
Así que, estamos todos aquí.

[17:46] But let me go to more serious work.
Pero déjenme pasar a un trabajo más serio.

[17:51] Uh uh uh yes, I share deeply your wonderful idea.
Uh uh uh sí, comparto profundamente tu maravillosa idea.

[17:55] is looking at ourselves from the future museum of capitalism.
nos estamos mirando a nosotros mismos desde el futuro museo del capitalismo.

[18:00] But the first bad news we have today, I was in a couple of them is that you know unfortunately museums of communism already exist in practically all postistn European countries.
Pero la primera mala noticia que tenemos hoy, estuve en un par de ellas es que, desafortunadamente, los museos del comunismo ya existen en prácticamente todos los países post-comunistas europeos.

[18:11] I visited one in Budapest for example when I bought a wonderful thing a candle as a figure of Stalin and then you light a candle and Stalin melts down.
Visité uno en Budapest, por ejemplo, cuando compré una cosa maravillosa, una vela con la figura de Stalin, y luego enciendes una vela y Stalin se derrite.

[18:24] This is as effective anti-talionist critique as you can get.
Esta es la crítica antitalionista más efectiva que se puede obtener.

[18:26] Okay, let's go on where I also what I also share with you is uh at least the
Vale, sigamos, donde también lo que también comparto contigo es uh al menos el

[18:32] also share with you is uh at least the first part of your critique of Badu that
También compartir con usted es eh al menos la primera parte de su crítica a Badu que

[18:35] first part of your critique of Badu that is to say his
primera parte de su crítica a Badu, es decir, su

[18:38] is to say his total conscious you cannot accuse him
es decir, su total consciente no se le puede acusar

[18:41] total conscious you cannot accuse him that he didn't see it.
total consciente no se le puede acusar de que no lo viera.

[18:43] that he didn't see it.
de que no lo viera.

[18:43] He is absolutely consciously opposed to it of the very
Él está absolutamente conscientemente opuesto a ello de la propia

[18:46] consciously opposed to it of the very notion that critique of political
conscientemente opuesto a ello de la propia noción de que la crítica de lo político

[18:49] notion that critique of political economy has a place a direct place in
noción de que la crítica de la economía política tiene un lugar, un lugar directo en

[18:52] economy has a place a direct place in what he calls idea of communism.
economía tiene un lugar, un lugar directo en lo que él llama la idea de comunismo.

[18:56] what he calls idea of communism.
lo que él llama la idea de comunismo.

[18:56] My point here would have been simply that
Mi punto aquí habría sido simplemente que

[18:59] point here would have been simply that one should what one should do with
punto aquí habría sido simplemente que uno debería lo que uno debería hacer con

[19:02] one should what one should do with regard to Badu is because Badu is here
uno debería lo que uno debería hacer con respecto a Badu es porque Badu está aquí

[19:05] regard to Badu is because Badu is here although he denies it obviously canan.
respecto a Badu es porque Badu está aquí aunque él lo niegue, obviamente canan.

[19:07] although he denies it obviously canan.
aunque él lo niegue, obviamente canan.

[19:07] He even calls in his communist hypothesis the idea of communism a kind
Incluso llama en su hipótesis comunista a la idea de comunismo un tipo

[19:09] He even calls in his communist hypothesis the idea of communism a kind of canan regulative idea and he
Incluso llama en su hipótesis comunista a la idea de comunismo un tipo de idea regulativa canan y él

[19:12] of canan regulative idea and he absolutely opposes any too narrow
de idea regulativa canan y él se opone absolutamente a cualquier demasiado estrecha

[19:16] absolutely opposes any too narrow mediation between this idea and uh actual social life.
se opone absolutamente a cualquier demasiado estrecha mediación entre esta idea y eh la vida social real.

[19:18] mediation between this idea and uh actual social life.
mediación entre esta idea y eh la vida social real.

[19:21] actual social life.
la vida social real.

[19:21] For him this is already historicism.
Para él esto ya es historicismo.

[19:24] For him this is already historicism.
Para él esto ya es historicismo.

[19:24] You fall into the historicist trap.
Caes en la trampa historicista.

[19:27] historicist trap.
trampa historicista.

[19:27] What I think is that we should pass here from K to Hegel.
Lo que creo es que deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.

[19:29] What I think is that we should pass here from K to Hegel.
Lo que creo es que deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.

[19:29] we should pass here from K to Hegel.
deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.

[19:31] we should pass here from K to Hegel.
deberíamos pasar aquí de K a Hegel.

[19:31] Hegel for Hegel idea is something which
Hegel para Hegel la idea es algo que

[19:34] Hegel for Hegel idea is something which is not just an ideal opposed to reality
Hegel için fikir, gerçekliğe karşıt bir idealden ibaret değildir

[19:37] is not just an ideal opposed to reality but something which has in itself the
gerçekliğe karşıt bir idealden ibaret değildir, ancak kendi içinde kendi gerçekleştirme gücüne sahip bir şeydir

[19:40] but something which has in itself the power of its own actualization which may
ancak kendi içinde kendi gerçekleştirme gücüne sahip bir şeydir ki bu

[19:43] power of its own actualization which may sound ultra idealist but it's exactly
aşırı idealist gelebilir ancak tam da budur

[19:46] sound ultra idealist but it's exactly what Markx says in what you refer to him
aşırı idealist gelebilir ancak tam da Marx'ın ona atıfta bulunduğunuzda söylediği şeydir

[19:49] what Markx says in what you refer to him that that is to say to conceive the idea
Marx'ın ona atıfta bulunduğunuzda söylediği şeydir, yani fikri tasavvur etmek

[19:52] that that is to say to conceive the idea of communism as a real movement maybe
yani komünizm fikrini gerçek bir hareket olarak tasavvur etmek belki de

[19:55] of communism as a real movement maybe our small differences begin with where
komünizm fikrini gerçek bir hareket olarak tasavvur etmek belki de küçük farklılıklarımız nerede başladığıyla ilgilidir

[19:59] our small differences begin with where to locate
küçük farklılıklarımız nerede konumlandırılacağıyla ilgilidir

[20:01] to locate this real movements. Uh let me begin
bu gerçek hareketleri konumlandırmak. Eee, başlayayım

[20:05] this real movements. Uh let me begin with some quite empirical remarks. You
bu gerçek hareketleri. Eee, oldukça ampirik bazı gözlemlerle başlayayım. Biliyor musunuz

[20:08] with some quite empirical remarks. You know I was in China when this happened
oldukça ampirik bazı gözlemlerle. Biliyor musunuz, bu olduğunda Çin'deydim

[20:11] know I was in China when this happened three four weeks ago when this strikes
biliyor musunuz, bu olduğunda Çin'deydim, üç dört hafta önce bu grevler

[20:14] three four weeks ago when this strikes started. And maybe this is a
üç dört hafta önce bu grevler başladığında. Ve belki bu bir

[20:16] started. And maybe this is a manipulation what I was told there but I
başladı. Ve belki bu bir manipülasyon, bana orada söylenenler ama ben

[20:19] manipulation what I was told there but I wasn't told by official representatives.
manipülasyon, bana orada söylenenler ama bana resmi temsilciler tarafından söylenmedi.

[20:21] wasn't told by official representatives. I was told by this maybe you know them
bana resmi temsilciler tarafından söylenmedi. Bana belki tanırsınız diye bu kişiler tarafından söylendi

[20:23] I was told by this maybe you know them one quay and other critical
belki tanırsınız diye bu kişiler tarafından söylendi, biri Quay ve diğer eleştirel

[20:24] one quay and other critical intellectuals. They told me that these
biri Quay ve diğer eleştirel entelektüeller. Bana bu

[20:27] intellectuals. They told me that these strikes were strictly tolerated even up
entellektüeller. Bana bu grevlerin kesinlikle hoşgörüldüğünü, hatta bir noktaya kadar

[20:30] strikes were strictly tolerated even up to a point how do you call it incited by
grevlerin kesinlikle hoşgörüldüğünü, hatta bir noktaya kadar nasıl denir, teşvik edildiğini söylediler

[20:34] to a point how do you call it incited by the communist party as part they think

[20:37] the communist party as part they think that the only way to cut a long story

[20:39] that the only way to cut a long story short for China to retain its economic

[20:43] short for China to retain its economic momentum in a situation of worldwide

[20:46] momentum in a situation of worldwide crisis is to insist the purchase power

[20:50] crisis is to insist the purchase power of the local working class. So for them

[20:54] of the local working class. So for them they are maybe a little bit too cynical.

[20:56] they are maybe a little bit too cynical. They say of course this discontent with

[20:58] They say of course this discontent with strikes was all the time there. The

[21:01] strikes was all the time there. The mystery for them is why all of a sudden

[21:03] mystery for them is why all of a sudden were strikes not only tolerated but even

[21:07] were strikes not only tolerated but even pos that was for them the big sign

[21:09] pos that was for them the big sign positively reported in the media. You

[21:12] positively reported in the media. You know till now if you mentioned the word

[21:14] know till now if you mentioned the word independent trade unions before you

[21:17] independent trade unions before you finished the sentence to put it in bad

[21:20] finished the sentence to put it in bad taste ironic way you already had a

[21:22] taste ironic way you already had a one-way ticket train to Mongolia to some

[21:25] one-way ticket train to Mongolia to some camp all of a sudden now my god strikes

[21:27] camp all of a sudden now my god strikes get positive mention in the official

[21:30] get positive mention in the official media but my modest counter example to

[21:34] media but my modest counter example to you would have been precisely China what

[21:37] you would have been precisely China what my friends there are trying to convince

[21:39] my friends there are trying to convince me is that exploited as they are and I

[21:41] me is that exploited as they are and I Totally agree with you. This Foxcon

[21:44] Totally agree with you. This Foxcon story is ridiculous. The nicest part of

[21:46] story is ridiculous. The nicest part of the story is this one. It was reported,

[21:48] the story is this one. It was reported, I hope you know it probably better than

[21:50] I hope you know it probably better than me in the media. You know how Foxcon

[21:53] me in the media. You know how Foxcon reacted? It's ridiculous. It's the best

[21:56] reacted? It's ridiculous. It's the best of the brutal cynicism of what we call

[21:59] of the brutal cynicism of what we call patriarchal, caring, charity, human

[22:02] patriarchal, caring, charity, human relations, capitalism. You know how

[22:04] relations, capitalism. You know how Foxcon reacted to this wave of suicides?

[22:08] Foxcon reacted to this wave of suicides? Three things. First, all people who work

[22:10] Three things. First, all people who work for Foxcon had to sign anti-suicidal

[22:14] for Foxcon had to sign anti-suicidal pact. It's a bad joke. Promising that

[22:17] pact. It's a bad joke. Promising that they will not kill

[22:19] they will not kill themselves. Second, this is not a joke.

[22:21] themselves. Second, this is not a joke. That's so crazy about it. Second point,

[22:24] That's so crazy about it. Second point, now this we got more into Orwellian

[22:26] now this we got more into Orwellian Omino's waters. They had also to sign a

[22:30] Omino's waters. They had also to sign a legal obligation that if they see their

[22:33] legal obligation that if they see their fellow worker like depressed in a

[22:35] fellow worker like depressed in a suicidal mood that they will denounce

[22:37] suicidal mood that they will denounce him to the factory authorities so that

[22:40] him to the factory authorities so that they can call up psychiatrist and the

[22:41] they can call up psychiatrist and the last measure it's not a joke because as

[22:44] last measure it's not a joke because as you said these are gigantic factories

[22:46] you said these are gigantic factories they don't have enough space. Most of

[22:48] they don't have enough space. Most of the work happens in high buildings which

[22:50] the work happens in high buildings which is why the suicides are mostly done by

[22:52] is why the suicides are mostly done by jumping through windows. This is not a

[22:55] jumping through windows. This is not a joke. They are putting large nets nets

[22:58] joke. They are putting large nets nets were around the building. No. So I am

[23:02] were around the building. No. So I am the first one to agree with you. But

[23:04] the first one to agree with you. But what nonetheless they told me is that

[23:06] what nonetheless they told me is that and that's the tragedy of the situation

[23:08] and that's the tragedy of the situation that in spite of all of this those who

[23:12] that in spite of all of this those who can move to these big industrial cities

[23:15] can move to these big industrial cities like Shanghai and others consider

[23:18] like Shanghai and others consider themselves up to a point even the lucky

[23:21] themselves up to a point even the lucky ones. The true problem is background and

[23:24] ones. The true problem is background and there there we have a totally different

[23:27] there there we have a totally different situation of this half unemployed

[23:29] situation of this half unemployed farmers and maybe this is at least as

[23:32] farmers and maybe this is at least as important a movement. This is why I

[23:35] important a movement. This is why I think maybe we should show a little bit

[23:37] think maybe we should show a little bit more mercy towards China. Namely, I was

[23:40] more mercy towards China. Namely, I was told that these poor farmers who are

[23:42] told that these poor farmers who are left behind by this capitalist closure

[23:45] left behind by this capitalist closure are starting to organize themselves and

[23:48] are starting to organize themselves and organize themselves in Chinese numbers.

[23:50] organize themselves in Chinese numbers. a kind of a self-created network. We are

[23:53] a kind of a self-created network. We are talking about tens according to some uh

[23:56] talking about tens according to some uh sources even 100 200 of millions of

[23:59] sources even 100 200 of millions of people. autonomous farmer

[24:02] people. autonomous farmer self-organization and the communist

[24:05] self-organization and the communist party not for any good democratic

[24:07] party not for any good democratic reasons but because they think that if

[24:08] reasons but because they think that if they oppress this they risk an even

[24:11] they oppress this they risk an even stronger explosion at a certain point is

[24:15] stronger explosion at a certain point is seriously considering the possibility of

[24:18] seriously considering the possibility of allowing them of recognizing them at

[24:21] allowing them of recognizing them at least as some kind of a partner maybe

[24:24] least as some kind of a partner maybe this is just an old fascist formula

[24:27] this is just an old fascist formula corporate organization maybe it's

[24:29] corporate organization maybe it's something more but where I maybe don't

[24:33] something more but where I maybe don't quite agree now I come to basically

[24:35] quite agree now I come to basically first I think uh you were a little bit

[24:37] first I think uh you were a little bit unfair although I criticized him all the

[24:39] unfair although I criticized him all the time I'm ready to take the blame for the

[24:40] time I'm ready to take the blame for the commons to work Tony naggery because he

[24:43] commons to work Tony naggery because he would concede all this you know

[24:45] would concede all this you know exploitation new subjectivity exploited

[24:48] exploitation new subjectivity exploited by capital what I am claiming is

[24:51] by capital what I am claiming is something and I will try to put it as

[24:52] something and I will try to put it as brutally and openly as possible so that

[24:55] brutally and openly as possible so that I expose myself to the counterattack

[24:57] I expose myself to the counterattack what I am claiming is that to grasp I

[25:00] what I am claiming is that to grasp I repeat what I the claim I made here the

[25:02] repeat what I the claim I made here the last year that to grasp today cap

[25:05] last year that to grasp today cap today's capitalist dynamics this logic

[25:08] today's capitalist dynamics this logic of exploitation is no longer enough that

[25:12] of exploitation is no longer enough that again to grasp the capitalist dynamic

[25:16] again to grasp the capitalist dynamic you need to take into account first the

[25:19] you need to take into account first the new role important role as a source of

[25:22] new role important role as a source of wealth of raw materials which for marks

[25:25] wealth of raw materials which for marks were basically out of the equation you

[25:28] were basically out of the equation you Know the irony is that when Markx check

[25:30] Know the irony is that when Markx check it up in capital wants to demonstrate

[25:34] it up in capital wants to demonstrate that raw materials cannot be a source of

[25:37] that raw materials cannot be a source of wealth in the sense of value of course

[25:40] wealth in the sense of value of course he you know what he gives as an example

[25:42] he you know what he gives as an example oil so to provoke you I already was

[25:45] oil so to provoke you I already was interrupted a year ago I like to repeat

[25:47] interrupted a year ago I like to repeat the provocation I claim something very

[25:49] the provocation I claim something very simple if you apply dogmatically marks

[25:53] simple if you apply dogmatically marks to today's Venezuela you cannot but say

[25:55] to today's Venezuela you cannot but say that Chavez is exploiting the United

[25:58] that Chavez is exploiting the United He is not. But that's why we have to

[26:01] He is not. But that's why we have to rethink it. One thing are raw materials

[26:04] rethink it. One thing are raw materials which are an important part of the

[26:06] which are an important part of the struggle. Who will confront them?

[26:07] struggle. Who will confront them? Another one is so-called intellectual

[26:10] Another one is so-called intellectual property. And there for me, the problem

[26:12] property. And there for me, the problem of commons is crucial. Again, my vulgar

[26:15] of commons is crucial. Again, my vulgar example which I used a year ago, how did

[26:17] example which I used a year ago, how did that creep who is now happily on the way

[26:19] that creep who is now happily on the way down uh Bill Gates, how did he become at

[26:23] down uh Bill Gates, how did he become at least at some point the the wealthiest

[26:25] least at some point the the wealthiest man in the world? I don't believe in the

[26:27] man in the world? I don't believe in the classical Marxist explanation of you

[26:30] classical Marxist explanation of you know extreme extra extra superprofit

[26:33] know extreme extra extra superprofit exploitation. I think we should return

[26:36] exploitation. I think we should return to the category of rent which is still

[26:39] to the category of rent which is still some kind of exploitation but different.

[26:41] some kind of exploitation but different. I think uh Bill Gates is not so rich

[26:44] I think uh Bill Gates is not so rich because he especially has exploited his

[26:47] because he especially has exploited his workers or whatever but because again he

[26:51] workers or whatever but because again he appropriated part of what should be and

[26:54] appropriated part of what should be and in a way even is our commons. Each of us

[26:58] in a way even is our commons. Each of us when we want to be in touch in a shared

[27:00] when we want to be in touch in a shared public space you have to pay to him the

[27:04] public space you have to pay to him the price just so that we can share the same

[27:07] price just so that we can share the same field through internet social space and

[27:08] field through internet social space and so on and so on. This is for me the

[27:11] so on and so on. This is for me the logic of the privatization of the

[27:13] logic of the privatization of the commons. It has something to do

[27:16] commons. It has something to do uh okay okay I will overcome this quick

[27:20] uh okay okay I will overcome this quick heart attack and go on. Yes it has

[27:22] heart attack and go on. Yes it has something I think to do with the big

[27:25] something I think to do with the big problem of what Markx called general

[27:28] problem of what Markx called general intellect where I think Marx is at his

[27:31] intellect where I think Marx is at his best. You remember in Grund where Markx

[27:34] best. You remember in Grund where Markx says how uh how uh the moment the

[27:39] says how uh how uh the moment the knowledge collective practical knowledge

[27:40] knowledge collective practical knowledge will become the main source of wealth

[27:43] will become the main source of wealth capitalism will dissolve. He comes very

[27:45] capitalism will dissolve. He comes very close to some kind of almost economic

[27:47] close to some kind of almost economic determinism. I think what Markx didn't

[27:50] determinism. I think what Markx didn't take into account is the possibility of

[27:52] take into account is the possibility of this general knowledge, collective

[27:54] this general knowledge, collective practical

[27:56] practical knowledge, productive knowledge being

[27:59] knowledge, productive knowledge being reprivatized again. This is why I think

[28:02] reprivatized again. This is why I think that although I agree with you, commons

[28:04] that although I agree with you, commons were enclosed all the time. I

[28:06] were enclosed all the time. I nonetheless agree with those who claim

[28:08] nonetheless agree with those who claim that today we have a new much more

[28:11] that today we have a new much more radical maybe even uh unthinkable for

[28:15] radical maybe even uh unthinkable for Mark's twist in this story. So this was

[28:17] Mark's twist in this story. So this was the introduction. Now the shorter part

[28:19] the introduction. Now the shorter part the main part what I okay I will just

[28:22] the main part what I okay I will just enumerate points for you since I'm again

[28:25] enumerate points for you since I'm again as I always emphasize the victim of a

[28:27] as I always emphasize the victim of a brutal metaphysical linear notion of

[28:30] brutal metaphysical linear notion of time person okay sorry quickly quickly

[28:34] time person okay sorry quickly quickly first thing you know museum of communism

[28:37] first thing you know museum of communism I'm still absolutely for communism but

[28:39] I'm still absolutely for communism but what this means is that we the left

[28:41] what this means is that we the left really have to take into account the

[28:44] really have to take into account the amount of the failure of 1990 what I

[28:47] amount of the failure of 1990 what I claim is that not only did a certain

[28:49] claim is that not only did a certain Stalinist state socialism disintegrate.

[28:52] Stalinist state socialism disintegrate. Now with a 20 years delay, we are

[28:54] Now with a 20 years delay, we are getting that also welfare state social

[28:57] getting that also welfare state social democracy lost is slowly disappearing.

[29:00] democracy lost is slowly disappearing. And I would add to provoke you something

[29:03] And I would add to provoke you something which probably you will not agree but

[29:06] which probably you will not agree but it's my crucial point that you know all

[29:09] it's my crucial point that you know all those who were criticizing these twin

[29:11] those who were criticizing these twin brothers of two versions of state

[29:12] brothers of two versions of state socialism western democratic welfare

[29:14] socialism western democratic welfare state and Stalinist uh usually do it

[29:18] state and Stalinist uh usually do it from a position of a dream of council

[29:20] from a position of a dream of council Soviets immediate democracy and so on

[29:22] Soviets immediate democracy and so on and so on. I claim that that one also

[29:25] and so on. I claim that that one also has to be abandoned that this was the

[29:27] has to be abandoned that this was the big dream which died different deaths

[29:30] big dream which died different deaths Chinese cultural revolution 68 and so on

[29:34] Chinese cultural revolution 68 and so on and so on. I claim this is an illusion

[29:37] and so on. I claim this is an illusion the idea that somehow the authentic

[29:40] the idea that somehow the authentic working class will awaken in some kind

[29:42] working class will awaken in some kind of direct democracy and so on. Second

[29:44] of direct democracy and so on. Second point when we are anti- capitalists here

[29:47] point when we are anti- capitalists here now I hope here at least we will all

[29:49] now I hope here at least we will all agree did you notice how today we even

[29:52] agree did you notice how today we even have as my Indian friend Saro Giri

[29:54] have as my Indian friend Saro Giri recently told me wonderful expression an

[29:57] recently told me wonderful expression an overload of the critique of the horrors

[29:59] overload of the critique of the horrors of capitalism nothing is easier than to

[30:02] of capitalism nothing is easier than to be anti- capitalist today in all the

[30:04] be anti- capitalist today in all the media you are bombarded that corrupted

[30:07] media you are bombarded that corrupted banker that that that company which is

[30:10] banker that that that company which is polluting the environment that company

[30:12] polluting the environment that company which is using child slave labor and so

[30:14] which is using child slave labor and so on and so on. It's elementary to say

[30:17] on and so on. It's elementary to say what is wrong here. You can be as much

[30:20] what is wrong here. You can be as much anti- capitalism as you want but this

[30:22] anti- capitalism as you want but this ethical anti- capitalism always

[30:25] ethical anti- capitalism always personifies it with you know that

[30:26] personifies it with you know that corrupted that corrupted they obuscate

[30:29] corrupted that corrupted they obuscate that the question is the question of the

[30:30] that the question is the question of the system. Even Obama to whom I still have

[30:33] system. Even Obama to whom I still have at least a certain minimal respect

[30:36] at least a certain minimal respect deeply disappointed me here. How did

[30:38] deeply disappointed me here. How did Obama react to BP oil spill? I'm not

[30:40] Obama react to BP oil spill? I'm not paid by British Petroleum. I also think

[30:43] paid by British Petroleum. I also think they are disgusting. All I'm saying is

[30:45] they are disgusting. All I'm saying is that it's you see we have a great

[30:48] that it's you see we have a great natural catastrophe with unpredictable

[30:51] natural catastrophe with unpredictable consequences instead of approaching it

[30:53] consequences instead of approaching it in a radical way mobilizing all the

[30:57] in a radical way mobilizing all the people. Maybe even the army at least the

[30:59] people. Maybe even the army at least the the US army in this way would have been

[31:01] the US army in this way would have been doing something more meaningful than

[31:03] doing something more meaningful than killing than killing the Afghanist. No.

[31:05] killing than killing the Afghanist. No. Uh what is he doing? He changed it into

[31:08] Uh what is he doing? He changed it into a typical legal private immoral culprit

[31:13] a typical legal private immoral culprit uh problem as it I will kick the BP in

[31:16] uh problem as it I will kick the BP in the ass and I will make them pay which

[31:19] the ass and I will make them pay which is totally ridiculous. You can see here

[31:21] is totally ridiculous. You can see here how we cannot do with e

[31:24] how we cannot do with e ecology the amount of crisis which are

[31:27] ecology the amount of crisis which are definitely ahead of us. They absolutely

[31:31] definitely ahead of us. They absolutely need something that I cannot by call but

[31:33] need something that I cannot by call but call a communist approach. that is to

[31:36] call a communist approach. that is to say a large mobilization outside the

[31:39] say a large mobilization outside the market and outside this legal state

[31:42] market and outside this legal state form. So uh uh again uh the problem for

[31:46] form. So uh uh again uh the problem for me is the following one of communism. I

[31:48] me is the following one of communism. I hope we also here we all agree this

[31:51] hope we also here we all agree this basic insight of marks that the problem

[31:53] basic insight of marks that the problem of

[31:54] of freedom the true sight of the problem of

[31:57] freedom the true sight of the problem of freedom is not the political system you

[32:00] freedom is not the political system you know all this measurement done by

[32:03] know all this measurement done by western agencies who in a patternizing

[32:06] western agencies who in a patternizing way measure third world countries. Do

[32:08] way measure third world countries. Do you have free elections? Do you have

[32:10] you have free elections? Do you have independent judges and so on? The true

[32:13] independent judges and so on? The true measure of freedom is what goes on in

[32:16] measure of freedom is what goes on in what superficially appears as an uh

[32:20] what superficially appears as an uh apolitical set of civil society,

[32:23] apolitical set of civil society, relations, production, exploitation,

[32:25] relations, production, exploitation, even family and so on and so on. there

[32:28] even family and so on and so on. there in this not directly of course they are

[32:30] in this not directly of course they are in reality political political their

[32:33] in reality political political their freedom is decided which is why I think

[32:35] freedom is decided which is why I think that this cheap anti- capitalism oh how

[32:38] that this cheap anti- capitalism oh how corrupted they are BP this company that

[32:41] corrupted they are BP this company that still implicitly yes remains within the

[32:44] still implicitly yes remains within the scope of this legal approach we need to

[32:47] scope of this legal approach we need to expand political democracy to cover it

[32:49] expand political democracy to cover it up and so on and so on it cannot be done

[32:52] up and so on and so on it cannot be done okay I will now really sum it up because

[32:54] okay I will now really sum it up because I would like maybe to engage in a debate

[32:56] I would like maybe to engage in a debate with you John with your legendary

[32:58] with you John with your legendary statement which I hope maybe I

[33:01] statement which I hope maybe I misunderstood about you know like let's

[33:03] misunderstood about you know like let's do our job properly at this local level

[33:06] do our job properly at this local level and somehow now I am not sure I got you

[33:10] and somehow now I am not sure I got you correctly the way you all radically

[33:12] correctly the way you all radically interpreted is you know it's like this

[33:14] interpreted is you know it's like this what Hegel would have called uh

[33:17] what Hegel would have called uh subterranean uh work of

[33:20] subterranean uh work of uh slow work so that you don't have to

[33:23] uh slow work so that you don't have to confront the power directly you just do

[33:25] confront the power directly you just do this local work We don't need to take

[33:28] this local work We don't need to take power but some well to be very brutal

[33:32] power but some well to be very brutal and really to sum it up my problem is

[33:34] and really to sum it up my problem is one that I read your work no the KGB did

[33:37] one that I read your work no the KGB did it I have it in black book all the

[33:39] it I have it in black book all the quotes and all the examples that you

[33:42] quotes and all the examples that you this is an empirical claim please I

[33:44] this is an empirical claim please I would like to be refuted this is not a

[33:46] would like to be refuted this is not a rhetorical stupidity all all examples

[33:49] rhetorical stupidity all all examples that you enumerate I claim still

[33:53] that you enumerate I claim still presuppose not only a relatively strong

[33:56] presuppose not only a relatively strong but even a relatively efficient state I

[33:59] but even a relatively efficient state I claim. Yes, I claim. Show me an that you

[34:02] claim. Yes, I claim. Show me an that you know you can have all these local

[34:04] know you can have all these local communities doing their work is always

[34:07] communities doing their work is always in the background the state remains.

[34:10] in the background the state remains. Second point what to do then when to put

[34:14] Second point what to do then when to put it in very naive terms how literally am

[34:16] it in very naive terms how literally am I to take Yes. Stop. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[34:19] I to take Yes. Stop. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm stopping. It's a

[34:20] Yeah. Yeah. I'm stopping. It's a dialectical process. Yeah. Yeah.

[34:23] dialectical process. Yeah. Yeah. How how literally do you take this not

[34:26] How how literally do you take this not power like now I'm consciously uh to

[34:30] power like now I'm consciously uh to provoke you as an aggressive among

[34:32] provoke you as an aggressive among comrades we are contradictions within

[34:34] comrades we are contradictions within the people blah blah uh how what would

[34:37] the people blah blah uh how what would you say to Morales no step down rather

[34:40] you say to Morales no step down rather do your work down and my idea is not

[34:42] do your work down and my idea is not Chavez I have my idea is Morales here we

[34:45] Chavez I have my idea is Morales here we can grab power why not we can in

[34:48] can grab power why not we can in collaboration with all those local

[34:50] collaboration with all those local movements that you like so much we can

[34:52] movements that you like so much we can do the work and if okay I could go on

[34:55] do the work and if okay I could go on for 1 hour but just to conclude another

[34:57] for 1 hour but just to conclude another point which I think we share people when

[35:00] point which I think we share people when we dream about society to come people

[35:03] we dream about society to come people usually tell us oh this is utopia this

[35:05] usually tell us oh this is utopia this is impossible just to conclude really

[35:07] is impossible just to conclude really don't uh yeah yeah yeah I see your evil

[35:09] don't uh yeah yeah yeah I see your evil eye yeah I mean through my ideological

[35:13] eye yeah I mean through my ideological eyes I see the red leather and you are

[35:15] eyes I see the red leather and you are whipping me okay sorry uh sorry you know

[35:19] whipping me okay sorry uh sorry you know that you know that uh It's typical when

[35:22] that you know that uh It's typical when people tell us

[35:23] people tell us impossible. Did you notice how in what a

[35:26] impossible. Did you notice how in what a strange way the signifier impossible

[35:29] strange way the signifier impossible functions in our ideological space? On

[35:33] functions in our ideological space? On the one hand, the official ideology is

[35:36] the one hand, the official ideology is telling us everything is becoming almost

[35:38] telling us everything is becoming almost possible. You know, in the field of

[35:41] possible. You know, in the field of private pleasure, science and so on, we

[35:44] private pleasure, science and so on, we will be able to change our character. We

[35:46] will be able to change our character. We will be able not to mention what

[35:47] will be able not to mention what horrible things in sexuality doing. We

[35:50] horrible things in sexuality doing. We will be able to travel to the moon.

[35:52] will be able to travel to the moon. Everything is possible there. But the

[35:55] Everything is possible there. But the moment you approach social relations,

[35:58] moment you approach social relations, there are more and more things which are

[36:00] there are more and more things which are impossible. You know, as if the message

[36:02] impossible. You know, as if the message of the ruining ideology, we be able to

[36:05] of the ruining ideology, we be able to travel to the moon to Venus. We will be

[36:08] travel to the moon to Venus. We will be able to become immortals. Of course, why

[36:10] able to become immortals. Of course, why not? But will it be possible to change a

[36:13] not? But will it be possible to change a little bit the healthcare care

[36:15] little bit the healthcare care legislation? No. No way. That's

[36:17] legislation? No. No way. That's impossible. No. So you know the what is

[36:20] impossible. No. So you know the what is possible what is impossible is maybe the

[36:24] possible what is impossible is maybe the crucial ideological opposition today and

[36:28] crucial ideological opposition today and our message should be of course not in

[36:30] our message should be of course not in an irrational sense but in the sense of

[36:32] an irrational sense but in the sense of what appears as impossible within a

[36:36] what appears as impossible within a certain ideological social space. It's

[36:40] certain ideological social space. It's yes you are right it is impossible but

[36:44] yes you are right it is impossible but look see look at us and claren we will

[36:47] look see look at us and claren we will do the impossible thank you very

[37:03] okay um thanks and our final speaker is

[37:06] okay um thanks and our final speaker is John Holay

[37:07] John Holay [Applause]

[37:07] [Applause] [Music]

[37:11] [Applause]

[37:13] [Applause] [Music]

[37:16] [Music] Thank Thank you very much. It It's

[37:19] Thank Thank you very much. It It's lovely to be back again. It's lovely and

[37:23] lovely to be back again. It's lovely and it's a little bit frightening. It's a

[37:25] it's a little bit frightening. It's a little bit frightening to see so many

[37:27] little bit frightening to see so many people and to see the big queue

[37:28] people and to see the big queue beforehand, all those people waiting and

[37:31] beforehand, all those people waiting and you think, "My

[37:33] you think, "My goodness, my goodness, my goodness. What

[37:36] goodness, my goodness, my goodness. What are you all doing here? You

[37:39] are you all doing here? You know, my goodness, why why do you all

[37:42] know, my goodness, why why do you all want to talk about the idea of

[37:44] want to talk about the idea of communism? And can it be perhaps that we

[37:48] communism? And can it be perhaps that we are all here because we are all

[37:53] [Applause]

[37:56] [Applause] [Music]

[37:59] [Music] communists? And of course, that's only

[38:02] communists? And of course, that's only the beginning because the question is,

[38:03] the beginning because the question is, what do we mean by that?

[38:06] what do we mean by that? And I loved I loved Alex's museum, the

[38:10] And I loved I loved Alex's museum, the idea of a museum of capitalism. That

[38:12] idea of a museum of capitalism. That that's really lovely. The only problem

[38:14] that's really lovely. The only problem is where is it? And I think he says,

[38:18] is where is it? And I think he says, "Well, it's in communism, of course. But

[38:21] "Well, it's in communism, of course. But where where is this communism?" And I

[38:23] where where is this communism?" And I think my fear my really my fear is that

[38:26] think my fear my really my fear is that communism becomes a kind of land of Oz,

[38:30] communism becomes a kind of land of Oz, you know, somewhere over the rainbow.

[38:33] you know, somewhere over the rainbow. And it's not like that. It can't be like

[38:36] And it's not like that. It can't be like that. It seems to me that no that

[38:39] that. It seems to me that no that communism is very much here and now. And

[38:44] communism is very much here and now. And we have to start from that. If we want

[38:47] we have to start from that. If we want communism, if we are communists, then we

[38:50] communism, if we are communists, then we must start from the idea that communism

[38:52] must start from the idea that communism is already here, here, and now.

[38:56] is already here, here, and now. And

[39:01] I I suppose partly why I say that is

[39:05] I I suppose partly why I say that is because I've just come from a very

[39:07] because I've just come from a very striking example of that. That about 10

[39:10] striking example of that. That about 10 days ago I was I had the pleasure of

[39:13] days ago I was I had the pleasure of giving a talk in Navarino Park in

[39:17] giving a talk in Navarino Park in Athens. And Navarino Park is very

[39:20] Athens. And Navarino Park is very interesting because it's a it's a really

[39:22] interesting because it's a it's a really a garden created a community garden

[39:25] a garden created a community garden created in the middle of the city and

[39:27] created in the middle of the city and it's just around the corner from where

[39:29] it's just around the corner from where the police shot Alexis Griggeropouloolis

[39:32] the police shot Alexis Griggeropouloolis the 15year-old in December 2008. And

[39:37] the 15year-old in December 2008. And with all the huge riots that followed

[39:39] with all the huge riots that followed that shooting, one of the things that

[39:42] that shooting, one of the things that happened was that people occupied a a

[39:45] happened was that people occupied a a car park in just around the corner from

[39:48] car park in just around the corner from where it happened in near the center of

[39:50] where it happened in near the center of Athens and they tore down the walls of

[39:52] Athens and they tore down the walls of the car park and they transformed it

[39:55] the car park and they transformed it into a garden and it's a beautiful

[39:57] into a garden and it's a beautiful garden and it's used by all the people

[39:59] garden and it's used by all the people in the neighborhood and it's used by

[40:01] in the neighborhood and it's used by children and they hold meetings there

[40:03] children and they hold meetings there and it's fantastic. And the first time I

[40:06] and it's fantastic. And the first time I went, I felt, wow, this is

[40:09] went, I felt, wow, this is communism. This is

[40:14] [Applause]

[40:18] [Applause] revolution. And I still feel that

[40:21] revolution. And I still feel that strongly. I still feel very much that

[40:23] strongly. I still feel very much that that is where communism is. That is what

[40:25] that is where communism is. That is what communism

[40:27] communism means. Why? I think firstly because it

[40:31] means. Why? I think firstly because it the garden grew out of a no grew out of

[40:36] the garden grew out of a no grew out of a yabasta. Yeah. We can't go on we can't

[40:40] a yabasta. Yeah. We can't go on we can't go on living in this capitalist world.

[40:43] go on living in this capitalist world. We can't go on creating and recreating

[40:47] We can't go on creating and recreating capitalism because it is destroying us

[40:50] capitalism because it is destroying us and it is destroying us very quickly. We

[40:53] and it is destroying us very quickly. We have to break the logic. We have to

[40:56] have to break the logic. We have to break the logic of capitalism and we

[40:58] break the logic of capitalism and we have to do it now, not in some far off

[41:03] have to do it now, not in some far off day in the

[41:07] [Music]

[41:10] [Music] future. And that was the starting point

[41:13] future. And that was the starting point of the garden. It was just a refusal

[41:16] of the garden. It was just a refusal like the enough no we can't go on. But

[41:20] like the enough no we can't go on. But that refusal, that rage became

[41:23] that refusal, that rage became transformed into a process of creation.

[41:26] transformed into a process of creation. In other words, it's not just a

[41:27] In other words, it's not just a negation. It's a negation and creation.

[41:30] negation. It's a negation and creation. Not just an against, it's an against and

[41:32] Not just an against, it's an against and beyond. The transformation of rage into

[41:37] beyond. The transformation of rage into a into a change here and now in the city

[41:42] a into a change here and now in the city of Athens. And this change seems to be

[41:45] of Athens. And this change seems to be crucial in two respects. Firstly, by

[41:47] crucial in two respects. Firstly, by being a garden, it announces that what

[41:51] being a garden, it announces that what we need is not just a change in our own

[41:54] we need is not just a change in our own social relations, but also a change in

[41:57] social relations, but also a change in our relation with other forms of life,

[41:59] our relation with other forms of life, with nonhuman forms of life. In other

[42:02] with nonhuman forms of life. In other words, a garden has the special feature

[42:04] words, a garden has the special feature of

[42:07] saying of saying that any anti-

[42:09] saying of saying that any anti- capitalism, any communism must be based

[42:12] capitalism, any communism must be based on the different relation with the

[42:14] on the different relation with the plants and animals that surround us. And

[42:18] plants and animals that surround us. And secondly, I think it's crucial in this

[42:21] secondly, I think it's crucial in this garden that the the the whole process is

[42:25] garden that the the the whole process is create creates a different set of social

[42:28] create creates a different set of social relations. It's a process of creating a

[42:32] relations. It's a process of creating a nogo area, if you like, creating a crack

[42:36] nogo area, if you like, creating a crack in the logic of capitalist social

[42:42] cohesion that the people involved in the

[42:45] cohesion that the people involved in the park put up. They don't in fact, but

[42:49] park put up. They don't in fact, but symbolically you can imagine them

[42:51] symbolically you can imagine them putting up signs around the garden

[42:53] putting up signs around the garden saying capital keep out. Here we are

[42:56] saying capital keep out. Here we are going to create something different.

[42:58] going to create something different. Here we are creating something according

[43:00] Here we are creating something according to a different logic. Here we are not

[43:03] to a different logic. Here we are not going to measure land according to the

[43:05] going to measure land according to the price per square meter. Here we are

[43:08] price per square meter. Here we are going to appreciate land by the pleasure

[43:10] going to appreciate land by the pleasure it gives to us and our children.

[43:20] So these non- capitalist, it seems to me

[43:22] So these non- capitalist, it seems to me that they are non- capitalist social

[43:24] that they are non- capitalist social relations, non- capitalist in the sense

[43:26] relations, non- capitalist in the sense that they break with the logic of

[43:28] that they break with the logic of capital that they consciously

[43:32] capital that they consciously create relations that are asymmetrical

[43:36] create relations that are asymmetrical in relation to capitalism. relations of

[43:39] in relation to capitalism. relations of horizontality, relations of

[43:42] horizontality, relations of cooperation, relations of friendship, of

[43:46] cooperation, relations of friendship, of love, if you like, relations that do not

[43:50] love, if you like, relations that do not fit in to the logic of capital.

[43:55] fit in to the logic of capital. So you've

[43:56] So you've got the creation then in this area of a

[44:02] got the creation then in this area of a communal structure, something that

[44:05] communal structure, something that develops and take takes up and develops

[44:07] develops and take takes up and develops the whole communal tradition of anti-

[44:09] the whole communal tradition of anti- capitalism. the whole way in which the

[44:12] capitalism. the whole way in which the movement has always tried to develop to

[44:15] movement has always tried to develop to to to to organize itself to um find

[44:19] to to to organize itself to um find forms of taking decisions that are

[44:22] forms of taking decisions that are horizontal that involve everybody in the

[44:26] horizontal that involve everybody in the struggle of capitalism. So you could

[44:28] struggle of capitalism. So you could think of the garden as a

[44:31] think of the garden as a space of

[44:34] space of communism that communism then exists. It

[44:38] communism that communism then exists. It is not in the far off future because we

[44:40] is not in the far off future because we don't know if there's going to be a

[44:42] don't know if there's going to be a faroff

[44:44] faroff future. Communism exists and it

[44:47] future. Communism exists and it exists in the

[44:49] exists in the interstases of capitalism. That's where

[44:53] interstases of capitalism. That's where it exists. And it exists in the

[44:57] it exists. And it exists in the interstases of capital as an

[44:59] interstases of capital as an interstitial growth in against and

[45:02] interstitial growth in against and beyond capital.

[45:04] beyond capital. And it is always difficult and it is

[45:07] And it is always difficult and it is always contradictory. And of course

[45:09] always contradictory. And of course there are problems and of course there

[45:11] there are problems and of course there are conflicts and of course the people

[45:13] are conflicts and of course the people who run the garden have the problem of

[45:15] who run the garden have the problem of how do they keep out the police? How do

[45:17] how do they keep out the police? How do they deal with drug addicts? How do they

[45:19] they deal with drug addicts? How do they deal with drug pushers? How do they

[45:21] deal with drug pushers? How do they actually create and maintain it as a

[45:25] actually create and maintain it as a real communal

[45:27] real communal space? But it seems to me that there is

[45:29] space? But it seems to me that there is no other way we can think about

[45:32] no other way we can think about revolution. that the only possible way

[45:34] revolution. that the only possible way we can think about revolution is as the

[45:38] we can think about revolution is as the creation, expansion, multiplication and

[45:42] creation, expansion, multiplication and confluence of such communist spaces of

[45:46] confluence of such communist spaces of such cracks in the texture of capitalist

[45:51] such cracks in the texture of capitalist domination.

[45:57] And and it seems ridiculous. It seems

[46:00] And and it seems ridiculous. It seems ridiculous until you begin to think that

[46:02] ridiculous until you begin to think that in fact this Navarino park isn't just a

[46:05] in fact this Navarino park isn't just a kind of tiny local example as Slavoy

[46:09] kind of tiny local example as Slavoy would probably like me to say or might

[46:12] would probably like me to say or might but it is actually something that exists

[46:15] but it is actually something that exists all over the place that all over the

[46:18] all over the place that all over the place we people create spaces they

[46:21] place we people create spaces they create no go areas they create areas in

[46:25] create no go areas they create areas in which they say no here capital will not

[46:28] which they say no here capital will not come In here we are going to develop our

[46:31] come In here we are going to develop our lives according to a different logic.

[46:34] lives according to a different logic. And if you go to the southeast of Mexico

[46:37] And if you go to the southeast of Mexico where if you go to Chapas to the

[46:39] where if you go to Chapas to the Sapatist area all around the Sapatist

[46:41] Sapatist area all around the Sapatist area there are signs saying bad

[46:44] area there are signs saying bad government stay out here the people

[46:47] government stay out here the people rule. But it's something that you can

[46:50] rule. But it's something that you can imagine in Navarino Park as I said it's

[46:52] imagine in Navarino Park as I said it's something that exists around occupied

[46:55] something that exists around occupied factories. It's something that exists

[46:58] factories. It's something that exists say in the free software movement. It's

[47:01] say in the free software movement. It's something that we all do. It's something

[47:03] something that we all do. It's something that we all do in our relations with our

[47:05] that we all do in our relations with our children in our relations with our loved

[47:07] children in our relations with our loved ones. We say capital keep out. Here we

[47:11] ones. We say capital keep out. Here we are doing something else. Here we are

[47:13] are doing something else. Here we are developing different social

[47:16] developing different social relations. And when you begin to think

[47:19] relations. And when you begin to think of like that, you begin to see that the

[47:21] of like that, you begin to see that the world is not simply a world of

[47:23] world is not simply a world of domination. that the world is actually a

[47:27] domination. that the world is actually a world of cracks, a world of interstitial

[47:31] world of cracks, a world of interstitial communism. So perhaps communism isn't

[47:33] communism. So perhaps communism isn't the word. It isn't in fact communism.

[47:36] the word. It isn't in fact communism. What you have is perhaps not communism,

[47:37] What you have is perhaps not communism, but communizing, a process of

[47:40] but communizing, a process of communizing in which people are trying

[47:44] communizing in which people are trying to communize the society in many

[47:47] to communize the society in many different ways. The only communism that

[47:50] different ways. The only communism that we could really talk about I suppose in

[47:52] we could really talk about I suppose in any full sense would be a world system

[47:54] any full sense would be a world system in which we all participated in

[47:57] in which we all participated in determining our own lives. But for the

[47:59] determining our own lives. But for the moment and at least in for the moment

[48:02] moment and at least in for the moment all we have is these movings these

[48:04] all we have is these movings these movements from the particular these

[48:07] movements from the particular these movements of communizing of

[48:09] movements of communizing of communization if you like. And to talk

[48:13] communization if you like. And to talk of experiences like that to talk about

[48:17] of experiences like that to talk about in terms of communizing I hope makes it

[48:20] in terms of communizing I hope makes it clear this I am not thinking of

[48:21] clear this I am not thinking of micropolitics. It is not just a local.

[48:24] micropolitics. It is not just a local. It is not just a garden. But if you

[48:26] It is not just a garden. But if you think, it seems to me that it doesn't

[48:29] think, it seems to me that it doesn't help to think of those spaces as

[48:30] help to think of those spaces as autonomous spaces because autonomous

[48:33] autonomous spaces because autonomous spaces imply something self-contained.

[48:36] spaces imply something self-contained. That they are cracks and cracks move,

[48:38] That they are cracks and cracks move, cracks run, cracks shoot out in all

[48:41] cracks run, cracks shoot out in all directions. Cracks come together and

[48:44] directions. Cracks come together and they come together in ways that we can

[48:46] they come together in ways that we can often not um not anticipate and not

[48:51] often not um not anticipate and not organize.

[48:52] organize. So to think of radical social change,

[48:55] So to think of radical social change, thoroughgoing change, we need to think

[48:57] thoroughgoing change, we need to think of a confluence of cracks. But the

[49:00] of a confluence of cracks. But the question is the problem is that we don't

[49:02] question is the problem is that we don't have any model for talking about this

[49:06] have any model for talking about this confluence. We can say obviously that

[49:09] confluence. We can say obviously that the confluence of the cracks, the coming

[49:11] the confluence of the cracks, the coming together of the cracks requires some for

[49:14] together of the cracks requires some for sort of organization. But this sort of

[49:16] sort of organization. But this sort of organization is not

[49:19] organization is not institutionalization because

[49:20] institutionalization because institutionalization doesn't work. And

[49:23] institutionalization doesn't work. And institutionalization doesn't work

[49:26] institutionalization doesn't work because um the cracks by their nature

[49:30] because um the cracks by their nature are the are thresholds are opening to

[49:33] are the are thresholds are opening to different to to a different sort of

[49:36] different to to a different sort of society to different sorts of social

[49:39] society to different sorts of social relations. And an

[49:41] relations. And an institutionalization is always the

[49:43] institutionalization is always the imposition of the present upon the

[49:46] imposition of the present upon the future. And that is why in fact

[49:48] future. And that is why in fact institutions never work it seemed to me

[49:51] institutions never work it seemed to me as a way of promoting the confluence of

[49:56] as a way of promoting the confluence of cracks. How do we organize a revolution?

[50:00] cracks. How do we organize a revolution? I think as Raul Cbecki

[50:03] I think as Raul Cbecki says we can't organize a revolution. In

[50:06] says we can't organize a revolution. In fact, we can't organize a rebellion.

[50:08] fact, we can't organize a rebellion. Rebellion is a movement that nobody

[50:10] Rebellion is a movement that nobody controls. What we can do is try and

[50:13] controls. What we can do is try and strengthen it. What we can do is try and

[50:16] strengthen it. What we can do is try and promote these cracks, try and create and

[50:18] promote these cracks, try and create and expand these cracks, but we can't

[50:20] expand these cracks, but we can't actually we can't institutionalize them.

[50:23] actually we can't institutionalize them. We can't organize them. And that is the

[50:25] We can't organize them. And that is the answer to Slavo's question about Ava

[50:28] answer to Slavo's question about Ava Morales in Olivia between 2000 and 2005

[50:32] Morales in Olivia between 2000 and 2005 with a huge explosion of cracks, a huge

[50:36] with a huge explosion of cracks, a huge explosion of communizing. And what the

[50:39] explosion of communizing. And what the election of Morales did was to channel

[50:43] election of Morales did was to channel that communizing process into its

[50:47] that communizing process into its logical opposite. In other words, into

[50:49] logical opposite. In other words, into state forms of organization and in many

[50:52] state forms of organization and in many ways to to to to bring that that process

[50:55] ways to to to to bring that that process to a closure. Not completely, of course,

[50:58] to a closure. Not completely, of course, because it's very contradictory, but

[51:00] because it's very contradictory, but that is what

[51:01] that is what institutionalization does. It kills

[51:04] institutionalization does. It kills cracks. Communism, communizing and

[51:08] cracks. Communism, communizing and statification are processes that move in

[51:11] statification are processes that move in opposite directions.

[51:14] opposite directions. So then what how do we promote the how

[51:17] So then what how do we promote the how do we think about the confluence of

[51:19] do we think about the confluence of cracks? How do we think about

[51:21] cracks? How do we think about strengthening the communizing process? I

[51:24] strengthening the communizing process? I think that the only way perhaps or the

[51:26] think that the only way perhaps or the best way is to think in terms of

[51:29] best way is to think in terms of resonances in terms of radiations in

[51:32] resonances in terms of radiations in terms of light shining in the dark. For

[51:35] terms of light shining in the dark. For me, Natalino Park is a light that shines

[51:38] me, Natalino Park is a light that shines in the dark. And the dark is a very,

[51:41] in the dark. And the dark is a very, very, very dark

[51:43] very, very dark dark. But it's a light that shines into

[51:46] dark. But it's a light that shines into the light that that lights up the dark.

[51:49] the light that that lights up the dark. And look around. Look around and you

[51:51] And look around. Look around and you begin to see those other lights. And

[51:54] begin to see those other lights. And that is what we have to do. That is what

[51:56] that is what we have to do. That is what we have to do. We have to strengthen

[51:58] we have to do. We have to strengthen those lights and create those lights.

[52:00] those lights and create those lights. And that for me is communism. Thank you

[52:04] And that for me is communism. Thank you very

[52:14] [Music]

[52:19] [Music] much. Okay. Um, we've had lots and lots

[52:22] much. Okay. Um, we've had lots and lots of of um, slips put in for contributions

[52:25] of of um, slips put in for contributions and also a lot of questions to read out.

[52:28] and also a lot of questions to read out. Um, I'll fit in as many as I can in the

[52:30] Um, I'll fit in as many as I can in the next 20 minutes. The first speaker will

[52:32] next 20 minutes. The first speaker will be Basamchit from Lebanon followed by

[52:36] be Basamchit from Lebanon followed by Dushko Bolafovich from Montenegro. Um

[52:40] Dushko Bolafovich from Montenegro. Um there's a microphone in the middle and

[52:41] there's a microphone in the middle and one at the front. So please come and use

[52:43] one at the front. So please come and use a a microphone. And just while the

[52:45] a a microphone. And just while the speakers are coming up, I'll read the

[52:46] speakers are coming up, I'll read the first couple of questions. We have quiet

[52:48] first couple of questions. We have quiet please. Do we answer one by one or uh

[52:51] please. Do we answer one by one or uh I'll bring you bring you all back at the

[52:52] I'll bring you bring you all back at the end. Um the first question is from Chris

[52:55] end. Um the first question is from Chris Rayburn. Bayurn, sorry. Uh bearing in

[52:57] Rayburn. Bayurn, sorry. Uh bearing in mind that there have been no communist

[52:59] mind that there have been no communist regimes that have survived more than 30

[53:00] regimes that have survived more than 30 years, why should I believe that

[53:02] years, why should I believe that communism has a real chance of becoming

[53:04] communism has a real chance of becoming reality. Uh the second is from Alice

[53:08] reality. Uh the second is from Alice Randomson from Communism for Dummies

[53:10] Randomson from Communism for Dummies magazine. This is directed to Slavoy. Uh

[53:12] magazine. This is directed to Slavoy. Uh Slavoy, do you do drugs? What is your

[53:15] Slavoy, do you do drugs? What is your attitude towards drugs? Drugs. Do you do

[53:18] attitude towards drugs? Drugs. Do you do drugs? What is your attitude to drugs?

[53:20] drugs? What is your attitude to drugs? What would be the role of drugs in a

[53:21] What would be the role of drugs in a communist society?

[53:25] communist society? [Applause]

[53:26] [Applause] [Music]

[53:27] [Music] Uh and the third question is from

[53:31] Uh and the third question is from Pauline Wheat Bowen from Unison. Would

[53:34] Pauline Wheat Bowen from Unison. Would you say that communism is not only

[53:36] you say that communism is not only possible but inevitable? Okay. So the

[53:38] possible but inevitable? Okay. So the first speaker is Basm and then Dushko.

[53:41] first speaker is Basm and then Dushko. Yeah. You've got three minutes to speak

[53:42] Yeah. You've got three minutes to speak and I'll tap on the mic after two. I

[53:44] and I'll tap on the mic after two. I speak less. Uh the f the first thing

[53:46] speak less. Uh the f the first thing that really hit me that the issue of

[53:49] that really hit me that the issue of communizing and the appropriation of

[53:51] communizing and the appropriation of spaces and all of these things.

[53:53] spaces and all of these things. Honestly, I only see it happening in

[53:55] Honestly, I only see it happening in places where it can happen. In in

[53:57] places where it can happen. In in places, for example, in the Middle East,

[53:59] places, for example, in the Middle East, it's impossible. You'll have tanks in a

[54:01] it's impossible. You'll have tanks in a few minutes in front of you and what do

[54:02] few minutes in front of you and what do you do with that? This is where you have

[54:04] you do with that? This is where you have to organize resistance. And when you

[54:06] to organize resistance. And when you look at at the the at the at the issue

[54:08] look at at the the at the at the issue of resistance and how you deal with all

[54:09] of resistance and how you deal with all of these things, one of the one of one

[54:11] of these things, one of the one of one of the trials that happened for example

[54:13] of the trials that happened for example in the two 2002 and 2003 in Lebanon,

[54:17] in the two 2002 and 2003 in Lebanon, some some people decide to start up a

[54:19] some some people decide to start up a commune and if they want to break

[54:20] commune and if they want to break totally with capital, one question was

[54:23] totally with capital, one question was asked to them in a meeting and nobody

[54:24] asked to them in a meeting and nobody answered. How do you get in a bus from

[54:26] answered. How do you get in a bus from one place to another? Who creates the

[54:27] one place to another? Who creates the bus? Who drives the bus? Who organized

[54:29] bus? Who drives the bus? Who organized the process of transportation? Who

[54:31] the process of transportation? Who organized all of these things that

[54:33] organized all of these things that actually makes us live?

[54:38] uh talking about spaces and

[54:39] uh talking about spaces and appropriation of of different commun

[54:42] appropriation of of different commun it's it's for me it's more of romantic

[54:44] it's it's for me it's more of romantic luxury than actually because the real

[54:46] luxury than actually because the real thing is how do you organize the

[54:47] thing is how do you organize the production process which we all survive

[54:50] production process which we all survive on we cannot survive without organizing

[54:53] on we cannot survive without organizing how we live on a daily basis and another

[54:55] how we live on a daily basis and another thing is one park does not does not it

[54:59] thing is one park does not does not it it brings hope because they won a battle

[55:02] it brings hope because they won a battle they did not comm they did not create

[55:04] they did not comm they did not create communism because communism is on the

[55:06] communism because communism is on the picket line is in demonstrations is when

[55:08] picket line is in demonstrations is when you go into fight with the police is all

[55:10] you go into fight with the police is all of these things. When all of society is

[55:12] of these things. When all of society is free then we can talk about communism.

[55:14] free then we can talk about communism. It's not it doesn't start in bits and

[55:16] It's not it doesn't start in bits and pieces. It starts when the struggles

[55:18] pieces. It starts when the struggles when the struggle hit hit a peak and

[55:20] when the struggle hit hit a peak and then you start seeing the future because

[55:22] then you start seeing the future because you start seeing the potential of the

[55:24] you start seeing the potential of the population in organizing itself in its

[55:26] population in organizing itself in its totality not in bits of pieces because

[55:29] totality not in bits of pieces because organizing tens of people or hundreds of

[55:32] organizing tens of people or hundreds of people is not enough. That's what

[55:33] people is not enough. That's what happened for example in 2006 when the is

[55:36] happened for example in 2006 when the is we Beirut was organized by different

[55:38] we Beirut was organized by different grassroots group it was not organized by

[55:40] grassroots group it was not organized by the state the state did not exist one

[55:42] the state the state did not exist one week after the state intervened in every

[55:44] week after the state intervened in every single locality and then then they

[55:46] single locality and then then they banned aid from different space what do

[55:48] banned aid from different space what do you do in these space you cannot even

[55:50] you do in these space you cannot even keep the space and leave the other

[55:52] keep the space and leave the other spaces being attacked by the state you

[55:54] spaces being attacked by the state you have to go there and fight them as well

[55:55] have to go there and fight them as well this is how you spread it and you don't

[55:57] this is how you spread it and you don't spread it by spaces you spread it by by

[55:59] spread it by spaces you spread it by by struggle thank

[56:00] struggle thank [Applause]

[56:11] Okay. Um, so the next speaker is Dushko

[56:13] Okay. Um, so the next speaker is Dushko and he'll be followed by Rachel Eil from

[56:16] and he'll be followed by Rachel Eil from um, Wolf and Forest.

[56:21] Hello to everyone. Uh, I'm British

[56:24] Hello to everyone. Uh, I'm British Shamodgrian. I used to live here for 21

[56:27] Shamodgrian. I used to live here for 21 years. uh and uh I arrived 1987 I moved

[56:31] years. uh and uh I arrived 1987 I moved back to 2008 to Montenegro and this uh

[56:36] back to 2008 to Montenegro and this uh spring I was chosen vice president of

[56:38] spring I was chosen vice president of communist party Montenegro

[56:40] communist party Montenegro uh this this party used to be leading

[56:44] uh this this party used to be leading party in all Yugoslavia but with this

[56:46] party in all Yugoslavia but with this creation

[56:48] creation Yugoslavia contra revolution 1989 we

[56:51] Yugoslavia contra revolution 1989 we lost almost everything we don't have

[56:53] lost almost everything we don't have anything we don't have any property

[56:55] anything we don't have any property because was taken over by by contra

[56:58] because was taken over by by contra revolution

[56:59] revolution 1989 when was actually uh made

[57:03] 1989 when was actually uh made um uh dictatorship and uh we uh there

[57:08] um uh dictatorship and uh we uh there was change of completely change of local

[57:12] was change of completely change of local government in Montenegro. A communist

[57:14] government in Montenegro. A communist party changed the name to uh democratic

[57:17] party changed the name to uh democratic socialist party. What is not democratic

[57:20] socialist party. What is not democratic at all not what is not so socialist what

[57:23] at all not what is not so socialist what they privatize everything they destroy

[57:26] they privatize everything they destroy everything. got three generation uh our

[57:29] everything. got three generation uh our grandparents and parents and my

[57:31] grandparents and parents and my generation built in Yugoslavia they

[57:33] generation built in Yugoslavia they destroy in 10 years. what we was

[57:35] destroy in 10 years. what we was building since uh in all 20th century

[57:38] building since uh in all 20th century they completely destroyed this mean what

[57:41] they completely destroyed this mean what they done they uh first they legally

[57:46] they done they uh first they legally uh take all property property was a

[57:49] uh take all property property was a government all all factory it was

[57:52] government all all factory it was property of

[57:54] property of workers and uh it wasn't actually

[57:58] workers and uh it wasn't actually property of government they legally uh

[58:01] property of government they legally uh what they done they legally uh just

[58:04] what they done they legally uh just privatized all this property and now

[58:07] privatized all this property and now there is no even work workers anymore

[58:09] there is no even work workers anymore because they lost all factory they

[58:12] because they lost all factory they privatized and they they close this is

[58:15] privatized and they they close this is what is happening and uh communist party

[58:19] what is happening and uh communist party this moment is completely uh without any

[58:23] this moment is completely uh without any power I'm from 30 member of uh communist

[58:27] power I'm from 30 member of uh communist party I'm youngest member that's why

[58:30] party I'm youngest member that's why probably they chose me most of them are

[58:33] probably they chose me most of them are really old people over 75, 80 years old,

[58:37] really old people over 75, 80 years old, young people, they don't know much about

[58:40] young people, they don't know much about that and it's very difficult for me and

[58:45] that and it's very difficult for me and little younger member to organize and

[58:49] little younger member to organize and prove them and show them what was

[58:52] prove them and show them what was actually 25 30 years ago and many people

[58:56] actually 25 30 years ago and many people don't know what's actually you know all

[58:59] don't know what's actually you know all this what's happening Serbia Bosnia but

[59:02] this what's happening Serbia Bosnia but you don't know How was economic status

[59:05] you don't know How was economic status inform Yugoslavia? Uh 1989 when you need

[59:08] inform Yugoslavia? Uh 1989 when you need to start summing up please. So sorry

[59:10] to start summing up please. So sorry when international monetary fund wanted

[59:12] when international monetary fund wanted to destroy Yugoslavia. They asked to

[59:15] to destroy Yugoslavia. They asked to close banks because bank wasn't even

[59:18] close banks because bank wasn't even government. It was controlled by

[59:21] government. It was controlled by workers. You

[59:22] workers. You knows that very well. And uh no I

[59:27] knows that very well. And uh no I definitely don't know that at any point

[59:30] definitely don't know that at any point banks were controlled by workers. No,

[59:33] banks were controlled by workers. No, I'm sorry that Yugoslavia missed me

[59:35] I'm sorry that Yugoslavia missed me totally. Sorry. Sorry, comrade. Um, you

[59:38] totally. Sorry. Sorry, comrade. Um, you have to wind up. All right. Okay. Sorry.

[59:40] have to wind up. All right. Okay. Sorry. No, you have to stop.

[59:42] No, you have to stop. They wanted to dismount. Sorry, comrade.

[59:45] They wanted to dismount. Sorry, comrade. You have to stop. All right.

[59:48] You have to stop. All right. Yeah. We've only got a few minutes.

[59:52] Yeah. We've only got a few minutes. [Music]

[59:54] [Music] Okay. All right. This is what what I

[59:59] Okay. All right. This is what what I wanted to say there is big trouble

[01:00:01] wanted to say there is big trouble Montenegrian government they want to

[01:00:03] Montenegrian government they want to join NATO only way to stop them it's uh

[01:00:07] join NATO only way to stop them it's uh to to take out this government into make

[01:00:11] to to take out this government into make some kind of demonstration against

[01:00:13] some kind of demonstration against joining NATO and I mean this is only way

[01:00:17] joining NATO and I mean this is only way what I just asking what I will ask from

[01:00:20] what I just asking what I will ask from British people to help us organize

[01:00:22] British people to help us organize referendum what is not legally obliged

[01:00:26] referendum what is not legally obliged by our government to be done. Okay.

[01:00:27] by our government to be done. Okay. Thank you.

[01:00:30] Thank you. Um just before Rachel speaks, I've got a

[01:00:34] Um just before Rachel speaks, I've got a couple more questions to read out. This

[01:00:35] couple more questions to read out. This is from Tauros. Is there a possibility

[01:00:38] is from Tauros. Is there a possibility for Marxists and anarchists to work

[01:00:39] for Marxists and anarchists to work together in the aim of reaching a

[01:00:41] together in the aim of reaching a communist world since their

[01:00:42] communist world since their conceptualization of communism is

[01:00:44] conceptualization of communism is generally the same? And secondly from

[01:00:46] generally the same? And secondly from Mark uh from LSSE is democracy the

[01:00:50] Mark uh from LSSE is democracy the biggest obstacle to stopping

[01:00:51] biggest obstacle to stopping irreversible climate change before it

[01:00:53] irreversible climate change before it becomes irreversible uh in in 15 years

[01:00:56] becomes irreversible uh in in 15 years he says okay the speaker after Rachel

[01:00:59] he says okay the speaker after Rachel will be Paul Hullbra from Brixham. Hi I

[01:01:02] will be Paul Hullbra from Brixham. Hi I want to take issue with um John Holay

[01:01:04] want to take issue with um John Holay really because I think listening to him

[01:01:06] really because I think listening to him it seems to me that he underestimates

[01:01:08] it seems to me that he underestimates what capitalism does to the human

[01:01:10] what capitalism does to the human condition. Capitalism makes us

[01:01:13] condition. Capitalism makes us alienated. Markx described the process

[01:01:15] alienated. Markx described the process where what is human becomes animal and

[01:01:18] where what is human becomes animal and we can only feel ourselves when we are

[01:01:20] we can only feel ourselves when we are doing the animal and it's through our

[01:01:21] doing the animal and it's through our labor which is what actually creates us

[01:01:23] labor which is what actually creates us as something special that take that gets

[01:01:26] as something special that take that gets taken away from us and completely

[01:01:28] taken away from us and completely perverts our lives. It means that we

[01:01:30] perverts our lives. It means that we can't imagine all our capabilities

[01:01:32] can't imagine all our capabilities because of the world that we live in and

[01:01:35] because of the world that we live in and that relationship doesn't just stop at

[01:01:37] that relationship doesn't just stop at work. So we don't get rid of alienation

[01:01:39] work. So we don't get rid of alienation when we leave work. It carries carries

[01:01:41] when we leave work. It carries carries all through our lives which is partly

[01:01:43] all through our lives which is partly why so many people feel that they can't

[01:01:45] why so many people feel that they can't think that they feel that they can't

[01:01:47] think that they feel that they can't dream and it's through resistance that

[01:01:49] dream and it's through resistance that you do see well partly you have to dream

[01:01:52] you do see well partly you have to dream if you're um a Marxist and want to

[01:01:54] if you're um a Marxist and want to imagine a better world part of keeping

[01:01:56] imagine a better world part of keeping you going is thinking about different

[01:01:58] you going is thinking about different possibilities but it's important to

[01:02:00] possibilities but it's important to think also realize that your dreams are

[01:02:04] think also realize that your dreams are are based in the world that we live in.

[01:02:06] are based in the world that we live in. So if you just think about I'm a

[01:02:08] So if you just think about I'm a healthare worker and as far as I can get

[01:02:10] healthare worker and as far as I can get when thinking about health work is

[01:02:13] when thinking about health work is better hospitals because that's what

[01:02:15] better hospitals because that's what I've known that's what health care is

[01:02:17] I've known that's what health care is nicer drugs more research on drugs and

[01:02:19] nicer drugs more research on drugs and better hospitals but actually in a in a

[01:02:22] better hospitals but actually in a in a whole change a revolutionary change

[01:02:24] whole change a revolutionary change everything gets up and played for grabs

[01:02:27] everything gets up and played for grabs and in that all our ideas change and

[01:02:30] and in that all our ideas change and what's exciting about within resistance

[01:02:33] what's exciting about within resistance is that dreams and dreamers are created

[01:02:36] is that dreams and dreamers are created And those dreams, some have contingency,

[01:02:39] And those dreams, some have contingency, you know, when you think about from the

[01:02:41] you know, when you think about from the early chartists and their sort of dreams

[01:02:44] early chartists and their sort of dreams about wanting land and wanting more. But

[01:02:46] about wanting land and wanting more. But one of the the main things that con that

[01:02:48] one of the the main things that con that people want is to be in the driving

[01:02:50] people want is to be in the driving street of their driving seat of their

[01:02:52] street of their driving seat of their own lives. And I think that's what John

[01:02:54] own lives. And I think that's what John Holay doesn't see. If all we can have is

[01:02:56] Holay doesn't see. If all we can have is a park or a series of parks, then we're

[01:03:00] a park or a series of parks, then we're not fundamentally changing. It's it's

[01:03:02] not fundamentally changing. It's it's it's a funny thing because it's like we

[01:03:04] it's a funny thing because it's like we need to realize we need to dream but we

[01:03:07] need to realize we need to dream but we also need to realize that our alienation

[01:03:09] also need to realize that our alienation perverts our dreams and it's only in

[01:03:11] perverts our dreams and it's only in acting and changing the world that we

[01:03:12] acting and changing the world that we can unpervert our dreams and really

[01:03:15] can unpervert our dreams and really relie our own imagination and dream the

[01:03:18] relie our own imagination and dream the dreams we need to

[01:03:20] dreams we need to [Applause]

[01:03:24] [Applause] dream. And um before Paul speaks I've

[01:03:27] dream. And um before Paul speaks I've got a couple more questions. Um this is

[01:03:29] got a couple more questions. Um this is from Rifat. Does it not signify that the

[01:03:32] from Rifat. Does it not signify that the horizon of capitalism has not been

[01:03:34] horizon of capitalism has not been transcended if if communism is still

[01:03:36] transcended if if communism is still defined within the framework of the

[01:03:38] defined within the framework of the terms of economic production? And

[01:03:40] terms of economic production? And secondly, from Oliver from Germany,

[01:03:42] secondly, from Oliver from Germany, don't we need socialism first and only

[01:03:44] don't we need socialism first and only then communism? Um, after Paul will be

[01:03:47] then communism? Um, after Paul will be Thomas Franker from the Czech Republic.

[01:03:50] Thomas Franker from the Czech Republic. Comrades, these debates are

[01:03:52] Comrades, these debates are fantastically important because they are

[01:03:55] fantastically important because they are a real uh repost to those who argue that

[01:03:59] a real uh repost to those who argue that Marxism is a dead dogma. It is not. It

[01:04:02] Marxism is a dead dogma. It is not. It is a tool to try to explain the world.

[01:04:06] is a tool to try to explain the world. But I must say that both to Savoy and to

[01:04:09] But I must say that both to Savoy and to John that my perception of the world

[01:04:13] John that my perception of the world differs radically from theirs. John

[01:04:16] differs radically from theirs. John mentions Navarino Park. Slavoy mentions

[01:04:20] mentions Navarino Park. Slavoy mentions the anti- capitalist overload. Now, I

[01:04:23] the anti- capitalist overload. Now, I think it's very difficult to explain to

[01:04:26] think it's very difficult to explain to Greek workers that there is an anti-

[01:04:29] Greek workers that there is an anti- capitalist overload in Greece when

[01:04:32] capitalist overload in Greece when they're being asked to take a 20% cut in

[01:04:35] they're being asked to take a 20% cut in their wages.

[01:04:38] their wages. I think it is also I think it is also

[01:04:42] I think it is also I think it is also quite frankly unbelievable to point to

[01:04:45] quite frankly unbelievable to point to Navarino Park as a way of resisting the

[01:04:48] Navarino Park as a way of resisting the vicious attacks of the Greek government

[01:04:51] vicious attacks of the Greek government and indeed followed by other European

[01:04:54] and indeed followed by other European governments across the continent. And it

[01:04:57] governments across the continent. And it seems to me therefore that where we in

[01:05:00] seems to me therefore that where we in the socialist workers party differ from

[01:05:03] the socialist workers party differ from those other people on the platform is

[01:05:07] those other people on the platform is that we believe that our tradition looks

[01:05:11] that we believe that our tradition looks at the democracy of workers in struggle.

[01:05:15] at the democracy of workers in struggle. So that of course there is a perception

[01:05:18] So that of course there is a perception in China that Foxcon is going to herald

[01:05:22] in China that Foxcon is going to herald a more tolerant Chinese working class.

[01:05:26] a more tolerant Chinese working class. But comrades, I do not believe that for

[01:05:29] But comrades, I do not believe that for one moment. The Chinese ruling class is

[01:05:33] one moment. The Chinese ruling class is a vicious ruling class that will use any

[01:05:37] a vicious ruling class that will use any means possible in order to hold down the

[01:05:41] means possible in order to hold down the Chinese workers. And what Foxcon have

[01:05:44] Chinese workers. And what Foxcon have done is to frighten the Chinese ruling

[01:05:47] done is to frighten the Chinese ruling class into trying to to hide their

[01:05:52] class into trying to to hide their weakness. And therefore I believe that

[01:05:55] weakness. And therefore I believe that revolutionary Marxists say that the

[01:05:58] revolutionary Marxists say that the question of workers struggle and I don't

[01:06:01] question of workers struggle and I don't agree with Slavoi the question of

[01:06:04] agree with Slavoi the question of workers councils of councils of trade

[01:06:07] workers councils of councils of trade unionists and neighborhoods. They are

[01:06:10] unionists and neighborhoods. They are not an imposition from revolutionary

[01:06:12] not an imposition from revolutionary Marxists. They are an imposition from

[01:06:15] Marxists. They are an imposition from the experience of workers in struggle.

[01:06:18] the experience of workers in struggle. What I believe we've heard tonight from

[01:06:21] What I believe we've heard tonight from those two is very interesting, very

[01:06:24] those two is very interesting, very entertaining, but in no way points a way

[01:06:27] entertaining, but in no way points a way forward to change this rotten world.

[01:06:30] forward to change this rotten world. [Applause]

[01:06:32] [Applause] Okay. Um before Thomas speaks, uh I said

[01:06:37] Okay. Um before Thomas speaks, uh I said I have a couple more questions to read

[01:06:38] I have a couple more questions to read out and I'll just point out I've had

[01:06:40] out and I'll just point out I've had this many questions so we won't get

[01:06:42] this many questions so we won't get through them all. Um the first question

[01:06:44] through them all. Um the first question is from Richard from the CWU.

[01:06:47] is from Richard from the CWU. Yep. Um to Slavoy, we now have the new

[01:06:51] Yep. Um to Slavoy, we now have the new international philanthropists like Bill

[01:06:53] international philanthropists like Bill Gates throwing money at good causes. I

[01:06:55] Gates throwing money at good causes. I wonder if you could say a few words

[01:06:57] wonder if you could say a few words about these good people or neocomunists

[01:06:59] about these good people or neocomunists or neopernnalists or whatever name you

[01:07:01] or neopernnalists or whatever name you care to give them. Um and the other

[01:07:03] care to give them. Um and the other question is please justify Slavoy's view

[01:07:06] question is please justify Slavoy's view about direct democracy that it is an

[01:07:08] about direct democracy that it is an illusion especially if you take into

[01:07:10] illusion especially if you take into consideration uh the huge capabilities

[01:07:12] consideration uh the huge capabilities of computer networking

[01:07:15] of computer networking computer networking and after Thomas

[01:07:17] computer networking and after Thomas will be Judith or

[01:07:19] will be Judith or um comrade Gjek I want to thank you for

[01:07:23] um comrade Gjek I want to thank you for three things I want to thank you for as

[01:07:25] three things I want to thank you for as you that you as an Eastern European as

[01:07:27] you that you as an Eastern European as an anti-stalonist and a former dissident

[01:07:30] an anti-stalonist and a former dissident have uh have put Lanni back on the map

[01:07:33] have uh have put Lanni back on the map to get landing into the financial times.

[01:07:35] to get landing into the financial times. That's a bond uh wonderful feat. I want

[01:07:38] That's a bond uh wonderful feat. I want to thank you for coming to our

[01:07:40] to thank you for coming to our demonstration in Prague against the

[01:07:41] demonstration in Prague against the missile defense shield that the US

[01:07:44] missile defense shield that the US wanted to to establish in the Czech

[01:07:45] wanted to to establish in the Czech Republic. And uh as a third, I want to

[01:07:49] Republic. And uh as a third, I want to uh thank you for being frank in uh in

[01:07:51] uh thank you for being frank in uh in your last interview for for the Guardian

[01:07:54] your last interview for for the Guardian where you where you admit to bluffs and

[01:07:56] where you where you admit to bluffs and and uh because some people have taken

[01:07:59] and uh because some people have taken all of your writing at face value and it

[01:08:01] all of your writing at face value and it has done some damage. I

[01:08:03] has done some damage. I think I I'm also a bit uh a bit baffled

[01:08:07] think I I'm also a bit uh a bit baffled that uh you still hang on to Bill Gates

[01:08:11] that uh you still hang on to Bill Gates and oil in Venezuela as being in

[01:08:13] and oil in Venezuela as being in contradiction to Markx. That's a one of

[01:08:16] contradiction to Markx. That's a one of the first things I I think that uh the

[01:08:18] the first things I I think that uh the value theory of labor actually only

[01:08:20] value theory of labor actually only applies to products that uh are um

[01:08:25] applies to products that uh are um produced in perfect markets. Bill Gates

[01:08:28] produced in perfect markets. Bill Gates and oil in Venezuela are are very much

[01:08:30] and oil in Venezuela are are very much about monopoly and therefore the labor

[01:08:32] about monopoly and therefore the labor theory of value um doesn't apply

[01:08:35] theory of value um doesn't apply directly. Um the uh did you read marks?

[01:08:39] directly. Um the uh did you read marks? Did you read marks? How can you say this

[01:08:41] Did you read marks? How can you say this if you claim that you read marks?

[01:08:44] if you claim that you read marks? I mean now you are sorry. Okay. Sorry.

[01:08:46] I mean now you are sorry. Okay. Sorry. Go on. Go on. But I mean it just beats

[01:08:49] Go on. Go on. But I mean it just beats me. Two people today. Yes. But not I

[01:08:54] me. Two people today. Yes. But not I think what in in the same interview in

[01:08:56] think what in in the same interview in in the Guardian you said that you are

[01:08:57] in the Guardian you said that you are baffled by by uh by your by your

[01:09:00] baffled by by uh by your by your popularity. I think what your popularity

[01:09:03] popularity. I think what your popularity is about is an expression of the

[01:09:05] is about is an expression of the zeitgeist. But when we when we follow

[01:09:08] zeitgeist. But when we when we follow what have been the icons of the left

[01:09:10] what have been the icons of the left over the last years then I think that

[01:09:12] over the last years then I think that has been quite quite a development that

[01:09:15] has been quite quite a development that you are talking about the polarization

[01:09:17] you are talking about the polarization of uh uh that it's easier to imagine the

[01:09:20] of uh uh that it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of

[01:09:21] end of the world than the end of capitalism. You think that you you talk

[01:09:24] capitalism. You think that you you talk about um like thinking globally acting

[01:09:28] about um like thinking globally acting locally but as part of humanity not as

[01:09:31] locally but as part of humanity not as part only of of of a local struggle. And

[01:09:35] part only of of of a local struggle. And you bring to the for the the immediacy

[01:09:37] you bring to the for the the immediacy the the the the importance of Lenny in

[01:09:39] the the the the importance of Lenny in that that looking at the actuality of

[01:09:43] that that looking at the actuality of revolution in the here and now uh the

[01:09:46] revolution in the here and now uh the cracks in the system not as a locale in

[01:09:49] cracks in the system not as a locale in the center of Athens but in the in the

[01:09:51] the center of Athens but in the in the uh social relations um in in in in

[01:09:56] uh social relations um in in in in Eastern Europe we actually have uh the

[01:10:01] Eastern Europe we actually have uh the the anti- capitalism of corruption or or

[01:10:03] the anti- capitalism of corruption or or corruption is

[01:10:04] corruption is capitalism can can solve this. Okay. And

[01:10:07] capitalism can can solve this. Okay. And uh what we have in the Czech Republic, I

[01:10:10] uh what we have in the Czech Republic, I think, is that the whole we in a sense

[01:10:13] think, is that the whole we in a sense made the whole Czech Republic a garden

[01:10:15] made the whole Czech Republic a garden and especially the place where the the

[01:10:17] and especially the place where the the the the United States wanted to put

[01:10:19] the the United States wanted to put their missile base because we showed

[01:10:21] their missile base because we showed them the door. We were able to uh defeat

[01:10:24] them the door. We were able to uh defeat their plans. Thank you.

[01:10:28] their plans. Thank you. [Music]

[01:10:31] [Music] Okay. again. Um, I'd like to apologize

[01:10:32] Okay. again. Um, I'd like to apologize to all of these people who I haven't

[01:10:34] to all of these people who I haven't been able to either read their question

[01:10:35] been able to either read their question or call them. Um, Judith will have to be

[01:10:37] or call them. Um, Judith will have to be the last speaker so that I've got time

[01:10:39] the last speaker so that I've got time to bring all three back. Um, so thanks

[01:10:41] to bring all three back. Um, so thanks again for everyone who contributed. I

[01:10:44] again for everyone who contributed. I think I think that when John Holloway

[01:10:45] think I think that when John Holloway asked, you know, why why is everybody

[01:10:47] asked, you know, why why is everybody queuing and it really was incredible to

[01:10:48] queuing and it really was incredible to see that queue and incredible to see the

[01:10:50] see that queue and incredible to see the size of all these meetings at Marxism

[01:10:52] size of all these meetings at Marxism and I'm I think it's what the speaker

[01:10:54] and I'm I think it's what the speaker said is that, you know, we can all agree

[01:10:55] said is that, you know, we can all agree that we hate capitalism, can't we? I

[01:10:57] that we hate capitalism, can't we? I mean, it's it's clear to us all what is

[01:10:59] mean, it's it's clear to us all what is wrong with capitalism. what it's doing

[01:11:01] wrong with capitalism. what it's doing to ordinary people around the world and

[01:11:04] to ordinary people around the world and maybe now more clear to more millions of

[01:11:06] maybe now more clear to more millions of people than really we've seen in some

[01:11:08] people than really we've seen in some generations in terms of what's happened

[01:11:10] generations in terms of what's happened with the crisis. But of course what

[01:11:11] with the crisis. But of course what we're debating tonight is what is the

[01:11:14] we're debating tonight is what is the alternative and then how are we going to

[01:11:16] alternative and then how are we going to get there isn't it? Those are those are

[01:11:17] get there isn't it? Those are those are the things that we can disagree on or

[01:11:19] the things that we can disagree on or debate if you like if we're all agreed

[01:11:21] debate if you like if we're all agreed that what's happening right now we don't

[01:11:22] that what's happening right now we don't like and I mean absolutely clearly we're

[01:11:25] like and I mean absolutely clearly we're looking at well if we look at Eastern

[01:11:26] looking at well if we look at Eastern Europe if we look at China if we look at

[01:11:28] Europe if we look at China if we look at other countries that claim in some way

[01:11:30] other countries that claim in some way to be an alternative to capitalism

[01:11:31] to be an alternative to capitalism they're not they are another form of

[01:11:33] they're not they are another form of capitalism aren't they that's proved by

[01:11:35] capitalism aren't they that's proved by what's happening to the Chinese workers

[01:11:36] what's happening to the Chinese workers who are fighting back and who knows if

[01:11:38] who are fighting back and who knows if some of them are being wind up but I to

[01:11:40] some of them are being wind up but I to me this is people who are exploited

[01:11:42] me this is people who are exploited fighting back even under the most

[01:11:44] fighting back even under the most repressive repressive conditions and I

[01:11:46] repressive repressive conditions and I think so Even in those countries that

[01:11:47] think so Even in those countries that claim to be something different, there

[01:11:48] claim to be something different, there is a social force being created that can

[01:11:51] is a social force being created that can challenge those societies in the way

[01:11:53] challenge those societies in the way they're run. And that's the the working

[01:11:54] they're run. And that's the the working class. And I think the thing is about

[01:11:55] class. And I think the thing is about the working class that is so unique is

[01:11:57] the working class that is so unique is the the ruling class and the capitalists

[01:11:59] the the ruling class and the capitalists need it because how else do they create

[01:12:01] need it because how else do they create their surplus? How else is the wealth

[01:12:03] their surplus? How else is the wealth created if if they don't have workers?

[01:12:05] created if if they don't have workers? And therefore, we have a force that is

[01:12:07] And therefore, we have a force that is created within the belly of the beast

[01:12:09] created within the belly of the beast that can actually challenge the system.

[01:12:11] that can actually challenge the system. I don't think we can all we can just

[01:12:12] I don't think we can all we can just create lots of little bits of socialism

[01:12:14] create lots of little bits of socialism until they don't notice that we've taken

[01:12:15] until they don't notice that we've taken over the world. I think we have to

[01:12:16] over the world. I think we have to create a force that can actually smash

[01:12:19] create a force that can actually smash it and change it for that. But I

[01:12:25] it and change it for that. But I think my point is that Mark said that

[01:12:28] think my point is that Mark said that the history of all class societies with

[01:12:29] the history of all class societies with the history of class struggle struggle

[01:12:30] the history of class struggle struggle will happen whatever we decide in the

[01:12:32] will happen whatever we decide in the room tonight there will be struggles

[01:12:34] room tonight there will be struggles whether here or China or everywhere

[01:12:36] whether here or China or everywhere around the world struggle will happen.

[01:12:38] around the world struggle will happen. It's a it's a product of capitalism of a

[01:12:40] It's a it's a product of capitalism of a minority exploiting majority. What isn't

[01:12:43] minority exploiting majority. What isn't predestined is of course whether our

[01:12:45] predestined is of course whether our side will win. And that's the

[01:12:47] side will win. And that's the difference, isn't it? What sort of

[01:12:48] difference, isn't it? What sort of political leadership will the movements

[01:12:50] political leadership will the movements have, will the workers have, will people

[01:12:51] have, will the workers have, will people who come behind? And that's actually

[01:12:53] who come behind? And that's actually what Marxism is all about. I think we do

[01:12:55] what Marxism is all about. I think we do need political leadership of the the

[01:12:57] need political leadership of the the real force that can change the world.

[01:12:58] real force that can change the world. And that is socialist politics and the

[01:13:01] And that is socialist politics and the idea that actually we can smash this and

[01:13:03] idea that actually we can smash this and replace it with, as the old anti-

[01:13:04] replace it with, as the old anti- capitalist slogan said, something nicer,

[01:13:06] capitalist slogan said, something nicer, something a lot nicer, something a lot

[01:13:08] something a lot nicer, something a lot different where there really is true

[01:13:09] different where there really is true liberation for the whole of humanity.

[01:13:12] liberation for the whole of humanity. [Applause]

[01:13:18] [Applause] [Music]

[01:13:19] [Music] Okay, just before I'll bring this um the

[01:13:21] Okay, just before I'll bring this um the speakers back in the same order they

[01:13:23] speakers back in the same order they spoke. Um just to let you know um they

[01:13:25] spoke. Um just to let you know um they they'll all be signing copies of their

[01:13:27] they'll all be signing copies of their books if you want to buy them on the

[01:13:28] books if you want to buy them on the stall outside just just outside these

[01:13:30] stall outside just just outside these doors in the foyer. We do have to leave

[01:13:32] doors in the foyer. We do have to leave the room because there's a play in here

[01:13:34] the room because there's a play in here straight after this meeting. So first of

[01:13:36] straight after this meeting. So first of all, I'll bring back Alex.

[01:13:40] Well, it's frustrating because there's

[01:13:42] Well, it's frustrating because there's so many different points that have come

[01:13:44] so many different points that have come up come up and I'm just going to deal

[01:13:46] up come up and I'm just going to deal with three three questions. First of

[01:13:48] with three three questions. First of all, Dushko, I'm absolutely with you in

[01:13:51] all, Dushko, I'm absolutely with you in demonstrating against NATO. I'm

[01:13:53] demonstrating against NATO. I'm absolutely not with you when it comes to

[01:13:55] absolutely not with you when it comes to defending the old Stalinist regime

[01:13:58] defending the old Stalinist regime before 1989. The worst for people who

[01:14:00] before 1989. The worst for people who are real communists, communists like us

[01:14:03] are real communists, communists like us to quote a a book uh by Negri and

[01:14:07] to quote a a book uh by Negri and Delers, the biggest problem that

[01:14:10] Delers, the biggest problem that communists like us have is the the

[01:14:13] communists like us have is the the heritage of the Stalin Stalinist

[01:14:15] heritage of the Stalin Stalinist regimes. And we have to insist there's

[01:14:17] regimes. And we have to insist there's an absolute

[01:14:20] difference what we're fighting for and

[01:14:23] difference what we're fighting for and the old regimes. That's one point.

[01:14:25] the old regimes. That's one point. Secondly,

[01:14:26] Secondly, Slavoi, you really all this stuff about

[01:14:29] Slavoi, you really all this stuff about intellectual property and immaterial

[01:14:31] intellectual property and immaterial labor. Honestly, it's a total dead end.

[01:14:35] labor. Honestly, it's a total dead end. Go don't don't go near it. Honestly, I

[01:14:39] Go don't don't go near it. Honestly, I mean, stop Bill

[01:14:41] mean, stop Bill Gates at the minute. Um, Apple has

[01:14:45] Gates at the minute. Um, Apple has overtaken Microsoft uh in terms of of

[01:14:49] overtaken Microsoft uh in terms of of stock market value. What does Apple uh

[01:14:51] stock market value. What does Apple uh sell? It doesn't sell software. It does.

[01:14:54] sell? It doesn't sell software. It does. It's crucially isn't to do with

[01:14:55] It's crucially isn't to do with intellectual property. It sells things.

[01:14:58] intellectual property. It sells things. It sells very nice things, computers and

[01:15:01] It sells very nice things, computers and iPhones and and thing things like that.

[01:15:03] iPhones and and thing things like that. It produces material goods that are made

[01:15:07] It produces material goods that are made by those workers in in in

[01:15:10] by those workers in in in Foxcon. All all this stuff about

[01:15:12] Foxcon. All all this stuff about immaterial labor. What Mark shows is

[01:15:15] immaterial labor. What Mark shows is that under capitalism all labor is

[01:15:18] that under capitalism all labor is immaterial because the and John is very

[01:15:21] immaterial because the and John is very good about this in his his new book

[01:15:23] good about this in his his new book capitalism because all the work that we

[01:15:26] capitalism because all the work that we do is subject to the imperative logic of

[01:15:29] do is subject to the imperative logic of competition. That means that our work

[01:15:33] competition. That means that our work our productivity is constantly being

[01:15:35] our productivity is constantly being compared with the productivity of and

[01:15:37] compared with the productivity of and work of workers in other other

[01:15:39] work of workers in other other workplaces where subject in other words

[01:15:41] workplaces where subject in other words our actual our concrete labor is

[01:15:44] our actual our concrete labor is transformed into the abstract labor

[01:15:46] transformed into the abstract labor which is the source of the profits that

[01:15:48] which is the source of the profits that drive the system. That's the critical

[01:15:50] drive the system. That's the critical thing about Marx's theory of value. and

[01:15:52] thing about Marx's theory of value. and all this stuff about services and uh you

[01:15:55] all this stuff about services and uh you know uh immaterial goods and immaterial

[01:15:58] know uh immaterial goods and immaterial labor is a total waste waste of time and

[01:16:00] labor is a total waste waste of time and you you should just get away from that

[01:16:02] you you should just get away from that Slavoy because it's a big a big mistake.

[01:16:05] Slavoy because it's a big a big mistake. Final point. Final p point to do with

[01:16:08] Final point. Final p point to do with what what what John said. The pro I mean

[01:16:11] what what what John said. The pro I mean the the picture that you paint John is

[01:16:14] the the picture that you paint John is incredibly inspiring. But the problem is

[01:16:16] incredibly inspiring. But the problem is that logic that remorse remorseless

[01:16:19] that logic that remorse remorseless logic of c capitalist competition. The

[01:16:23] logic of c capitalist competition. The logic of abstract labor constantly seeks

[01:16:27] logic of abstract labor constantly seeks to crush and to close those those

[01:16:29] to crush and to close those those cracks. And the only way we can keep

[01:16:32] cracks. And the only way we can keep those cracks open and widen them is to

[01:16:35] those cracks open and widen them is to establish a different social logic. And

[01:16:37] establish a different social logic. And to do that, we need power. And the thing

[01:16:41] to do that, we need power. And the thing that I really I think I disagree with

[01:16:42] that I really I think I disagree with both of you about this. I don't think

[01:16:44] both of you about this. I don't think that power is reduced to what we can do

[01:16:48] that power is reduced to what we can do when we can make a garden or form some

[01:16:50] when we can make a garden or form some better way of living, which people do do

[01:16:52] better way of living, which people do do all the time. And I don't think power

[01:16:55] all the time. And I don't think power alternatively is just a matter of the

[01:16:58] alternatively is just a matter of the existing state. I think there's a third

[01:17:00] existing state. I think there's a third form of power that comes when people

[01:17:03] form of power that comes when people organize collectively to resist their

[01:17:06] organize collectively to resist their exploitation and out of that power we

[01:17:08] exploitation and out of that power we can get a different way of running the

[01:17:10] can get a different way of running the world and that's what will produce

[01:17:13] world and that's what will produce [Applause]

[01:17:21] [Applause] communism with me now okay again like

[01:17:24] communism with me now okay again like you I'm sorry I mean there was such an

[01:17:27] you I'm sorry I mean there was such an if not overload of anti- capitalism at

[01:17:29] if not overload of anti- capitalism at least overload of questions and one

[01:17:31] least overload of questions and one cannot answer them all. So at least I

[01:17:33] cannot answer them all. So at least I would like to limit myself at least to

[01:17:36] would like to limit myself at least to answer your the two of you main point.

[01:17:38] answer your the two of you main point. First as it was already noted that

[01:17:40] First as it was already noted that metaphor of the garden keep capital out.

[01:17:43] metaphor of the garden keep capital out. I would also say there is nothing new

[01:17:46] I would also say there is nothing new every capitalist system needs as it

[01:17:48] every capitalist system needs as it inherent component something like this.

[01:17:51] inherent component something like this. In traditional capitalism we get capital

[01:17:53] In traditional capitalism we get capital stay out of the family capital stay out

[01:17:56] stay out of the family capital stay out of the church and so on. a kind of a

[01:17:58] of the church and so on. a kind of a space outside I think. Uh so for me okay

[01:18:02] space outside I think. Uh so for me okay let me develop that to the problem is

[01:18:05] let me develop that to the problem is okay garden everything nice okay let's

[01:18:08] okay garden everything nice okay let's say there are drug deals in that garden

[01:18:11] say there are drug deals in that garden there are women beaten and so on what

[01:18:13] there are women beaten and so on what would you have done sorry to tell you I

[01:18:15] would you have done sorry to tell you I would have called the police if not I

[01:18:18] would have called the police if not I would have organized very brutal ths to

[01:18:21] would have organized very brutal ths to keep violent people out I'm sorry to

[01:18:24] keep violent people out I'm sorry to tell you or let me go a step further uh

[01:18:27] tell you or let me go a step further uh we have not only a gardener but a group

[01:18:30] we have not only a gardener but a group of farmers putting together uh an

[01:18:34] of farmers putting together uh an efficient cooperative. Then of course

[01:18:38] efficient cooperative. Then of course the capitalist farmers don't just look

[01:18:40] the capitalist farmers don't just look and send us a telegram with best wishes.

[01:18:43] and send us a telegram with best wishes. They organized a sabotage here and there

[01:18:46] They organized a sabotage here and there to prove how a thing like this cannot

[01:18:48] to prove how a thing like this cannot function. What would you have done? I

[01:18:50] function. What would you have done? I would have organized a counter terror.

[01:18:53] would have organized a counter terror. I'm sorry to tell you. Scaring a couple

[01:18:55] I'm sorry to tell you. Scaring a couple of them burning there. Maybe if they

[01:18:58] of them burning there. Maybe if they killed one of us, kill three of us and

[01:19:00] killed one of us, kill three of us and so on. I'm sorry to tell you this like

[01:19:03] so on. I'm sorry to tell you this like Chavez. Now I have great problems with

[01:19:05] Chavez. Now I have great problems with Chavez. But as it is clear now, I was

[01:19:09] Chavez. But as it is clear now, I was convinced by statement by Lawrence

[01:19:11] convinced by statement by Lawrence Eagleberger and so on that this lack of

[01:19:14] Eagleberger and so on that this lack of food temporary in Venezuela. Again, I'm

[01:19:17] food temporary in Venezuela. Again, I'm not totally defending Chavis. I'm

[01:19:19] not totally defending Chavis. I'm referring to a very specific phenomenon

[01:19:22] referring to a very specific phenomenon of it can be proven beyond reasonable