# The Collapse of Islam Is Closer Than You Think (Michael Jones) | Ep. 580

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sh_FgAMxKE

[00:00] What do you think people find attractive about Islam?
[00:02] A lot of people that want a lot of structure go to Islam.
[00:04] I pray five times a day, I do this.
[00:07] The other aspect is the brotherhood mentality of Islam.
[00:10] Muslims will defend other Muslims to the death.
[00:12] Is it the case that Muslims are dreaming of Christ?
[00:14] I've heard stories, man.
[00:16] People in those culture are really affected by dreams.
[00:19] Islam is just not a religion compatible with the West.
[00:21] They are coming here to conquer, to spread their world, and if they take over, you would see things like child marriage.
[00:28] You'd see things like polygamy.
[00:30] Isn't it true that Muslims are taught to lie to infidels?
[00:33] Taqiya.
[00:33] They will lie to us, tell us what we want to hear.
[00:36] So, you're saying that when you're in an interaction with a Muslim, they may have that as a tactic.
[00:41] Oh, they do.
[00:41] I see it all the time.
[00:42] What would you say to Muhammad?
[00:45] Prophet, liar, or lunatic?
[00:47] This is an evil evil religion, and if it takes over the world, we are doomed.
[00:52] Have you ever kind of sat back and honestly went, "Am I not giving this a fair shake?
[00:56] Like, is it possible that they're right?"
[01:10] I first came across one of your videos.
[01:12] Maybe 15 Cali, couldn't be that long ago.
[01:14] Many moons ago.
[01:14] How long?
[01:16] When did you publish that uh the one on the contingency argument?
[01:20] 2013.
[01:22] Yeah, it wasn't soon after that I watched it.
[01:23] It was like, "Wow."
[01:25] It was right.
[01:26] That's what I I like making those little graphic animated videos.
[01:30] Cuz the original goal of what I was doing was, man, there's a lot of dumb stuff online.
[01:34] I just want to put out a bunch of videos just sort of like showing the intellectual side of Christianity.
[01:38] Mhm.
[01:41] And just giving people some firepower to use.
[01:43] But, I mean, like I don't want to be a talking head.
[01:45] I want to give people I can use the screen to say more than what I'm saying.
[01:49] And so, just, you know, making all those kind of like little videos easy for people.
[01:54] Is it a podcast or no?
[01:54] You just release things when you release them and you I know you have a big presence on TikTok and Instagram, too.
[01:59] You're very good at those sort of short-form things.
[02:02] Yeah.
[02:02] Well, no.
[02:04] Now Now I'm doing a whole ton.
[02:04] I still do the graphic
[02:05] Videos. We release them, but we do live streams now and we do the shorts.
[02:09] And we're getting into some skits now.
[02:11] So, I've been posting some myself dressed as a Muslim.
[02:12] Been fun.
[02:15] Those have been going kind of viral on Instagram, so.
[02:16] Are you getting any response from our Muslim friends?
[02:18] They are very upset.
[02:18] Are they?
[02:20] How are they upset?
[02:22] Because they think I'm misrepresenting Islam by reading their own sources.
[02:24] Uh-huh.
[02:27] So, what does that tell you?
[02:27] So, did you get into Christian apologetics by way of atheism?
[02:31] Yeah.
[02:33] So, if you go back to like 2011.
[02:36] Oh my goodness.
[02:36] There just was all I would find online was fundamentalist Baptist ranting about stuff they were not experts on.
[02:42] And then if atheists, they were just dominating YouTube.
[02:45] Yeah.
[02:47] And I'm like, there's got to be some Christians that can do stuff to do this.
[02:50] As I said, sitting in a trailer all night working as a security yard with 8 hours of free time on my hand.
[02:58] And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get the message, God.
[02:59] All right, I'll do something.
[03:00] And so, I just started making videos and and it just snowballed into what it is.
[03:04] And so, when did you start
[03:06] doing debates?
[03:07] I was kind of forced into that.
[03:10] I People just started asking me, "K, come on and do a debate."
[03:13] You know, Cameron Toozu of Capturing Christianity.
[03:16] He asked me to come on and do a debate early on.
[03:17] That was when I was still hiding my face and name.
[03:19] So, I wasn't telling anybody who I was.
[03:21] I didn't see that.
[03:23] Yeah.
[03:23] So, what did you just put up an image?
[03:25] Yeah.
[03:27] I would I would hot buff guy.
[03:30] No.
[03:30] But I was terrified to show who I was cuz I You know, my goal in 2011 was not to be this.
[03:34] Yeah.
[03:34] My goal was to be the editor of this.
[03:36] Yeah.
[03:36] Uh like hiding in editing bay far away from the stage and the camera.
[03:41] And yeah.
[03:42] Why?
[03:42] Cuz I
[03:46] My parents were kind of like theater nerds.
[03:48] I They kind of like made me do a lot of the stuff as a kid.
[03:49] I hated it, honestly, growing up.
[03:51] It was not my thing.
[03:53] I like and I liked editing.
[03:55] I still do.
[03:55] I think it's just fun and I just I'm an introvert.
[03:57] I'm like, yeah, just put me in front of a computer, I'll be happy.
[04:00] And God said, nope, I have a I have another plan.
[04:02] So, this is what you're doing now.
[04:04] Mhm.
[04:06] what bad things have resulted, if any, since showing your face?
[04:11] Like, what has Do you wish you had have stayed anonymous sometimes?
[04:13] Yeah. Yeah, there's parts.
[04:15] I mean, I we do get death threats from Muslims. Yeah.
[04:18] Uh they they tried to dox my me and my family.
[04:21] They There were some Muslims that were doing that with my you know, myself, David Wood, God Logic.
[04:28] They were all up They were, you know, trying to dox us.
[04:30] They put what they thought was my cell phone number on the screen and it wasn't.
[04:33] It was an older number that I had.
[04:35] So, it's kind of funny like but Everyone's calling some poor guy called Jeff who's like, I don't know who he is.
[04:42] I feel bad if that happened.
[04:44] It's it's funny though, but it's it's also sad.
[04:46] But, it's like Okay, they're looking.
[04:48] So, you know, now we're we're we have to move just for our own safety.
[04:52] You did that? You had to move?
[04:53] We're we're looking at it.
[04:55] Just So, I hear about people like that who get death threats and I'm I'm I'm a little jealous because I don't think anyone's ever offered to kill me.
[05:01] So, all right.
[05:03] So, Maybe. But, maybe you didn't check your social media.
[05:05] Well, we now have like a
[05:07] full team of ex-Navy SEALs here at DailyWire.
[05:10] constantly checking the web and the dark web.
[05:12] So, they're like, we're on it.
[05:13] I'm like, all right, I don't think anyone's The Mormons are upset with me, but.
[05:17] they come at me with a sort of and they're not as violent.
[05:20] Yeah, you got to go If you want to go for a tougher challenge, go after the Muslims because they don't take kindly to that.
[05:26] So, what So, what The other thing I wanted to know is like, when you say death threat, what does what does it actually mean?
[05:31] Because if I'm honest, and I'm not accusing you or David Wood of this.
[05:33] I know that y'all are being sincere.
[05:36] But, sometimes I wonder if it's just things people say to look cool than they actually are.
[05:38] So, what is it What do you mean by death threats?
[05:39] Yeah, so I got a I got a message on Twitter once where some guy was like, just remember your blood is halal.
[05:44] Which means what?
[05:47] That means it's you know it halal is mean it's it's good.
[05:50] It's not haram which is bad in Islam or so that means spilling my blood would be approved of by Allah.
[05:58] So you know you get stuff like that.
[06:01] What do you do when you get that?
[06:02] Do you screenshot it and Screenshot it, send it to the FBI FBI or DHS, you know, I we we
[06:07] we've had people contact us.
[06:10] Hey if you get anything just send it over to us.
[06:12] Okay, yeah here here's another screenshot.
[06:13] Uh I don't make a big fuss about it.
[06:15] Maybe if I I don't really post it on social media because that's what they want.
[06:19] They want the attention.
[06:21] Mhm. So I just put that I just send it to DHS or FBI contacts I have.
[06:27] In your work on in against Muslims have you ever kind of sat back and honestly went all right.
[06:33] Cuz sometimes we can get into conflict reaction mode and we love it.
[06:38] Mhm. But then sometimes you pause and go hang on.
[06:42] All right. May am I not giving this a fair shake?
[06:44] Like is it possible that they're right and I just need to examine this with an open mind?
[06:48] Did you ever go through that, do it again and decide immediately no?
[06:51] Do you know what I mean? Or thousand times?
[06:54] Really? Yeah. Yeah, of course.
[06:56] I mean like you're not you're not being honest if you don't go well wait a minute maybe they have something here.
[07:01] I mean there's a ton of people that believe this and then you read the Quran again and you go wait there's nothing here.
[07:05] This is insane. This is nonsense. This doesn't make any sense and
[07:09] you know you the what I always remember.
[07:10] the verse Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is wicked and deceitful above all else who can understand it.
[07:15] Because you know we have those fleeting emotions and what always brings me back to Christianity is this is where all the evidence is.
[07:21] This is I mean Jesus was publicly executed buried in a public tomb, rose leaving behind an empty tomb for the public to examine and appeared to multiple people in public.
[07:31] That's different than Mormonism or Islam where it's one guy getting I have received a revelation today and you got to trust him.
[07:38] Jesus left behind a case that could made, which we call the resurrection argument for the truth of Christianity.
[07:46] We have that, and all the evidence points to Jesus actually rising from the dead.
[07:50] It's not like other religions where it's just one guy getting private revelations.
[07:53] So, at the end of the day, when I have those fleeting emotions like maybe the Muslims have something, maybe the Mormons have something, maybe the Hindus have something, I go, 'Let me examine it.'
[08:03] And then my head keeps me on the keeps me on track.
[08:05] If you had to make the best case for Islam, what would you say?
[08:11] That's hard to do.
[08:13] Do you think you Do you think a better case could be made for?
[08:16] Yes.
[08:17] If If you could debunk Christianity, I wouldn't be a a Muslim.
[08:21] There's just Think of Think about what the Quran.
[08:23] Think about the history here.
[08:25] So, like the Quran was written at a time before Islam became what it is, really.
[08:31] So, this is stuff that scholars like, you know, Gabriel Reynolds, Fred Donner have pointed out.
[08:36] The earliest Muslims and Muhammad were more inclusive in how they thought.
[08:40] Jews and Christians can be saved.
[08:42] We're all on the same page.
[08:44] Muhammad thought he was a prophet, probably.
[08:48] And but he thought what he was preaching was going to be in line with what the Bible, the prior scriptures taught.
[08:55] So, he was an illiterate guy, but he goes around saying, "Hey, you should believe in me because I'm confirming your scriptures.
[08:59] I'm teaching exactly the same stuff your prophets of old taught.
[09:01] So, just believe in me, too."
[09:06] And of course, the Jews and Christians went and then looked at their scriptures.
[09:08] They're like, "No, you're not.
[09:09] You're contradicting everything our
[09:11] prophet said.
[09:13] Well, he You'll see it in the Quran like Sura 3 and Sura 5 where it's like, they're twisting it with their tongues.
[09:19] They know I'm prophesied in there.
[09:22] They know I'm preaching the same stuff.
[09:25] But that created what we call the Islamic dilemma, because Muhammad was so ignorant.
[09:28] He said over and over again, "I'm confirming the Jewish and the Christian scriptures.
[09:33] I'm confirming them.
[09:34] So, that's why you should believe in me.
[09:36] Believe in those scriptures and believe in me also as a prophet.
[09:40] Okay, well that creates an Islamic dilemma because he was ignorant ignorant.
[09:43] We know he contradicts the Bible, Jewish and the Christian scriptures.
[09:47] So either this is the dilemma.
[09:49] The dilemma is either our scriptures have been corrupted or they haven't been.
[09:54] If our scriptures have not been corrupted, Islam is false because teaches Jesus is the son of God.
[09:58] He died and rose from the dead, has a contradictory history, you know, and the Quran says the golden calf was made by a Samaritan.
[10:07] We know it was made by Aaron.
[10:09] Like that kind of stuff.
[10:10] The other horn of the dilemma is if our
[10:12] scriptures have been corrupted, Islam is false because why is Allah confirming corrupted scriptures?
[10:18] So either way, Islam is false.
[10:20] And so when you ask me make the best case for Islam, I don't know.
[10:23] I mean like I guess you could say
[10:26] Muhammad I mean you could say look at how big Islam has become.
[10:31] Yeah. I mean maybe that's the argument.
[10:32] I mean Didn't you say he was illiterate?
[10:33] He was illiterate, yeah.
[10:35] So do we have any good reason to think he wrote the Quran and
[10:38] No, no, no, no.
[10:39] He he's he preached this stuff and people memorized surahs and then they wrote them down later.
[10:45] Uh cuz you know, it it's rhythmic in Arabic and that's one of the weird arguments they will use, but even one of their own scholars, al-Tabari, said some parts of the Quran are not elegant speech for the Arabs.
[10:54] So that kind of ruins the whole miracle, the Quran being the most beautiful book ever ever.
[11:01] It isn't.
[11:03] What do you think people find attractive about Islam then?
[11:05] Because I think most many people, maybe most of us, we're attracted to things before we're open to the truth claims about them.
[11:13] I would say that's even true today as Christianity is seeing a resurgence.
[11:16] Mhm.
[11:16] It's like we live in this banal two-dimensional culture and people look at orthodoxy or with the beards and the icons and the incense or Catholicism with the same and they go I want that.
[11:28] And it's like fair enough, you know, like being attracted by beauty is not a bad thing.
[11:31] But it doesn't mean it's a true thing, right?
[11:34] So, what is it about Islam that attracts people?
[11:38] Is it its simplicity?
[11:40] Is it its culture that appears to be less infected by wokeism, etc.?
[11:43] I think it's two things.
[11:46] Like, a lot of people that go to prison end up converting to Islam, unfortunately.
[11:50] Uh, it's because Islam provides that structure.
[11:53] You know, you you go through pri- you're in prison for several years, you get up at this time, you do this thing at this day.
[11:58] You get out and Islam has that kind of structure.
[12:00] So, a lot of people that want a lot of structure go to Islam.
[12:02] I pray five times a day, I do this.
[12:08] The other as- aspect is the brotherhood mentality of Islam.
[12:10] Like, Muslims will defend other Muslims to the death.
[12:15] To the point where it's like you'll see them like Muslims siding with like Islamic countries against their home country, like America or some European country.
[12:24] So, people get attracted to that loyalty.
[12:26] The problem is once you get into Islam, that whole loyalty thing's a myth.
[12:31] They're they're they're at each other's throats all the time.
[12:33] Right? Cuz I would agree with you.
[12:35] Like, from the outside, I see that and that is attractive.
[12:38] Especially from the inside of Christianity, I see a bunch of us YouTubers just sort of picking on each other and getting upset about.
[12:43] Well, compare that to the Muslim YouTubers.
[12:45] Okay.
[12:45] They they are always at each other's throats.
[12:48] They record each other's each other's conversations to use on each other.
[12:51] They have dirt on each other.
[12:53] Be like, if any of them you talk about me, I'll throw this out.
[12:56] Oh, but if you talk about me, I'll throw that.
[12:57] It's wild.
[12:57] And like, every now and then that'll leak out.
[13:00] They try to hide it, but we we get the hints and we get the clips.
[13:04] Myself, David Wood.
[13:08] I mean, you know, Apostate Prophet, God Logic.
[13:10] Well, we see it.
[13:13] So, they're at each other's throats.
[13:14] And Islam is very divided on the inside.
[13:16] I mean, like, you know, we have Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestants in Christianity.
[13:19] We're like, okay, we're all Christian.
[13:22] We we disagree about this or that, but we're all Christian.
[13:24] The two major branches of Islam, Sunni and Shia, call each other heretics all the time.
[13:28] Mhm. Uh you know, you have four schools in Sunni Islam.
[13:32] They're always fighting.
[13:34] You have Salafis fighting, which is like a revivalist movement in Islam, trying to get make it back to what make it more traditional and hardcore.
[13:43] They're fighting with non-Salafis.
[13:44] You'll see people fighting with the Wahhabis.
[13:47] I mean, there's all these different factions in there and they're fighting.
[13:50] And then they're fighting in terms of countries they support.
[13:51] Oh, you support UAE, why support Saudi Arabia?
[13:56] It's very And but this is the thing though, Islam in the Qur- in the Quran, it's kind of opposite of what the Bible does.
[14:02] The Bible teaches us to defend the faith.
[14:05] Islam teaches them to be on the offensive.
[14:06] Muhammad was going around challenging the pagans of his day, the Jews of his day.
[14:13] So, it builds this mentality that I need to be on the attack mode.
[14:15] I need to attack the
[14:17] pagans, the Jews.
[14:19] But that boils over into them now, and they're fighting amongst themselves cuz they feel like they always have to be on the attack mode.
[14:24] It's like when you train a a dog to be on the attack mode, you got to keep it away from small children because it could just go off and you'll see this with the the Dawah bros, the the defenders of Islam.
[14:35] They start fighting with each other over little things.
[14:39] I mean, there was a 8-hour live stream between Jake Brancatella, Daniel Haqiqatjou, and sometimes this guy named Dean would pop in and out.
[14:47] But they were fighting for like 8 hours on the stream over little things.
[14:51] Like, can you sacrifice to the jinn in the name of Allah?
[14:55] Can you do this?
[14:57] Like, really like stuff that I didn't even care about.
[14:59] But it that was that was eye-opening to a lot of non-Muslims about, 'Wow, they're really at each other's throats.
[15:04] This brotherhood thing is an illusion.'
[15:05] And it is.
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[16:49] So, they're fighting [snorts] over doctrine.
[16:50] Mhm.
[16:50] A lot of doctrine.
[16:53] You're not You know, remember Islam is a works-based religion.
[16:56] Okay.
[16:56] It's not like Christianity.
[16:58] You're saved by grace through faith, not of works, so that no man may boast.
[17:02] Like, we we all agree on that, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant.
[17:04] Uh even though we may bicker over little things, but in Islam, it's a work-based.
[17:08] So, you do this little thing, you mess up.
[17:11] Like, there's a clip of Sneako who converted to Islam finding out he can't wear red in Islam, or maybe his understanding of it.
[17:18] And he's like, "Whoa, I didn't know
[17:20] This.
[17:21] Or there's a clip of him interviewing a shake in Saudi Arabia.
[17:25] And the shake is telling him, "If you doubt Muhammad at all, you're a kafir, which means you've left Islam."
[17:30] And it's like A sk- It's a religion where you're walking on eggshells all the time.
[17:34] You can't do this, you can't eat that, you can't say this, you have to wear this, you have to dress this way.
[17:37] Why can't you wear red?
[17:40] I don't remember the reason.
[17:42] It was I It was weird.
[17:44] It's like So, you know, in Catholicism, we have a magisterium, right?
[17:46] In Islam, is there something like that?
[17:49] Oh, yeah, there's there's there's different schools, there's imams, yeah.
[17:52] then is there more of a forgive the analogy, but more of a Protestant type group of those who say we don't need a magisterium, we have the word of God here, and
[18:01] They're called Quran- they're called Quran-only Muslims.
[18:05] Uh so, they're kind of like the Protestants of Islam.
[18:07] KJV-only, but Quran-only.
[18:07] K-only, okay.
[18:10] Mainstream Sunni and Shia consider them heretics.
[18:11] Like, that's the thing.
[18:15] Like, you know, disagreements between Catholics and Baptists, okay, you you believe in the Trinity, you believe
[18:21] Jesus is coming back, the inspiration of scripture, great, okay.
[18:25] We believe on core doctrines.
[18:26] I'm not going to call you a heretic.
[18:27] Not going to apply the same to Mormon or Jehovah's Witness because they're breaking essential doctrines.
[18:32] But in the Sunnis will declare the Quran-onlyists Muslims heretics because they're not holding to the traditions of the prophet and the later teachings of fiqh and the schools of thought.
[18:43] So, I wonder if that's not a part of the attraction, right?
[18:45] Like, let's say you're a Christian in North America, and you're you're dissatisfied with your particular branch of it, and so maybe you go hardcore, you become like a Calvinist bro or a rad trad or an ortho bro.
[18:56] And then if that's not doing it enough for you, you look over the fence and you see what appears to be a masculine, united, simple religion, and you go, "I'm going to give that a shot."
[19:07] And what you're saying is when people do that, that's when you see how divided and They they they have it Islam is like the Wizard of Oz.
[19:16] Okay. Okay, he he looks big, scary, and powerful.
[19:19] You pull back the curtain and it's just a little man.
[19:20] Okay.
[19:20] It they
[19:22] put up this giant show that we have a simple religion.
[19:24] Just believe in one God and we're all Yeah.
[19:26] this amazing brotherhood and got each other's backs and it's so great.
[19:30] And then you get in and people are like, "I didn't know how bad this was."
[19:33] I mean, there's some data out there.
[19:36] I forget where, but shows it like 50 to like 70% I think of converts to Islam leave within 5 to 10 years.
[19:43] Mhm.
[19:46] And we do call-in shows with Muslims.
[19:49] Uh we had a guy call in.
[19:51] His name was Khalid.
[19:53] Mhm.
[19:53] He was a white convert to Islam and he left because he just it was so racist, he said, like towards him and it was there was always this infighting and he just felt like he was what?
[20:01] Yeah, he said he the way he explained it was is that they want white converts.
[20:06] Yeah, but then once you're in, you're not really.
[20:08] They get mad if you start learning too much because then they feel inferior again.
[20:11] Huh.
[20:11] They look at the West as a superior cuz the West is a superior culture to the Islamic culture.
[20:18] So, they want to bring in Westerners in.
[20:19] Yes, bring more of them them them in.
[20:22] But when they get them in,
[20:24] they want them to be, you know, they
[20:25] want them to be good dimmies, good
[20:27] little boys. Have you seen that blonde
[20:29] Australian Sheila who does TikToks and
[20:31] talks about how great Islam is? How much
[20:33] money is she getting paid? I don't know.
[20:35] Yeah. Well, I don't know because the
[20:37] other thing I think is if you just sort
[20:39] of just assume that most of us are
[20:40] narcissists and just desperately want
[20:42] attention.
[20:42] >> That's true. Then it's like you start
[20:45] you're a blonde young woman who's
[20:47] decent, attractive, I guess. Like you do
[20:49] a little video and you have a lot of men
[20:51] all around the world cheering for you.
[20:53] But I wonder what would Is she a Muslim?
[20:55] She's a Muslim, isn't she?
[20:56] >> She's a Muslim. She's taken her shahada
[20:58] in several videos because
[20:59] >> What does that mean? That's where you
[21:00] declare that Muhammad's the prophet. You
[21:02] It's like the
[21:03] what you say to become a Muslim. You
[21:05] take the shahada. But I mean, we know
[21:07] the Muslims are paying influencers.
[21:09] There was a There's a Viking historian
[21:11] on YouTube who
[21:13] uh says he put up a video, says, "I was
[21:15] approached by these guys from the Middle
[21:17] East, and they uh
[21:19] they had a They had a blank check,
[21:20] basically, and they said they wanted me
[21:22] to do a documentary series based on his
[21:24] books
[21:25] on Viking history, but he had to include
[21:28] that some of the earliest Vikings were
[21:29] Muslim.
[21:30] And he was like, "I can't do that.
[21:31] That's a lie."
[21:32] >> Oh.
[21:33] But, they were willing to pay. We've
[21:35] heard from uh like certain pastors in
[21:37] the UK that have been approached saying,
[21:39] "Convert to Islam, we'll give you
[21:40] whatever you want." And uh just write a
[21:42] book saying you you became a Muslim for
[21:44] all the amazing proof of Islam, which
[21:45] there isn't any, but, you know.
[21:48] I'm also seeing a sort of softening
[21:49] towards Islam from
[21:52] people who are considered conservative.
[21:54] I've seen video clips with both Tucker
[21:56] and Candace and others are basically
[21:59] softening. It's like they're softening
[22:01] towards Yeah, or yeah. Islam as they're
[22:04] hardening against Israel.
[22:07] Thoughts? Yeah, that's terrifying. The
[22:10] biggest threat to the West for the past
[22:11] 1,400 years has been Islam. It's been
[22:13] the Islamic world. And Christians have
[22:16] fought tooth and nail to defend our
[22:18] civilization for centuries, and now the
[22:20] secularists are here, and they're
[22:21] opening the door letting them flood in,
[22:24] and they have no idea what they've done.
[22:26] This is not a culture like ours. Muslims
[22:30] are not coming here to assimilate. If
[22:33] they do assimilate, it's because they
[22:34] deconverted.
[22:36] Islam is not a religion that can
[22:38] assimilate. It's a religion based on
[22:39] conquest. It's a religion based on
[22:42] authoritarian regimes. It's a religion
[22:44] that promotes and encourages slavery,
[22:46] even sexual slavery.
[22:48] How does it do that? How does it promote
[22:50] sexual slavery?
[22:51] >> and Muhammad said that if you were at
[22:53] war with the infidel, and you attack and
[22:55] kill all the men, those women in those
[22:56] villages,
[22:57] you've captured them in war, you can
[22:58] take them as your sex slaves.
[23:00] >> It says that in the Quran? It's in Yeah,
[23:02] it says the women It says those that
[23:04] your right hand possesses. They are you
[23:06] and that there's no there's no limit on
[23:08] that. You can have four wives in Islam,
[23:10] but you can there's no limit on as many
[23:11] sex slaves. So, slavery is a good to go
[23:15] good to go in Islam. How would a Muslim
[23:18] respond to that?
[23:19] That depends on the Muslim. Some of them
[23:20] will hide it. Some of them will just be
[23:23] like, "Yeah, and that's a good thing."
[23:24] Really?
[23:25] >> Yeah, I've seen it done.
[23:26] Am I right in thinking that a Muslim
[23:28] contacted you and said they wanted to
[23:30] debate you on child marriage?
[23:32] >> Yeah, his name is Daniel Haqiqatjou.
[23:33] He's the world's leading defender of
[23:35] child marriage and uh I watched the
[23:37] debate, David First of all, what was it
[23:39] like when someone challenged you to a
[23:41] de- Sorry, I should not laugh.
[23:43] But I would think it's so I was being
[23:45] punked if someone challenged me to a
[23:46] debate on child marriage. I think the
[23:48] first thing I'd do is like, "Wait, you
[23:49] don't think I believe that, do you? I
[23:50] don't believe that. Oh, wait, you
[23:52] believe that? You want to say that?"
[23:54] That's kind of what happened, but yeah,
[23:56] so the build-up to that is I watched a
[23:58] debate between David Wood on the topic
[24:00] and I just sort of made some tweets
[24:01] about how horrible it was. Well, then he
[24:03] found the tweets and got mad and so he
[24:05] challenged me. I challenge you to debate
[24:07] child marriage.
[24:08] And I was like, and you know, I I have a
[24:10] daughter. She was like six or seven at
[24:12] the time. So, Aisha's age? Yeah, it's
[24:14] >> Wasn't Aisha six?
[24:15] >> She was six when she was married to
[24:16] Muhammad and then consummated when she
[24:18] was nine.
[24:20] But something when when he challenged
[24:21] me, something like ticked in my father
[24:23] brain. Like something primal urge came
[24:26] up. And I like stopped what I was doing
[24:28] and I just started researching this the
[24:31] child marriage cuz I'm like, "Yeah, I'm
[24:32] doing this. He's going down. This is we
[24:34] can't stand for this." And
[24:37] I was like, "Yeah, this That's when I
[24:38] realized like I knew Islam was a
[24:40] problem, but that's when I knew Islam
[24:41] was a problem." This is a guy raised in
[24:43] the West
[24:45] who's a Muslim who's saying the world
[24:47] will be better if we could children now.
[24:49] Just as long as we put a marriage
[24:51] contract on it. But that's what a lot of
[24:52] Muslims will say. It's we can rape all
[24:54] the children we want as long as they're
[24:56] nine or older, and we put a marriage
[24:58] contract on it, right?
[25:00] And that's what we're up against.
[25:01] >> Then they also say, not that it makes it
[25:03] better, but I'm just trying to do what I
[25:05] can here for them. Wouldn't they say
[25:07] that they have to have been of the age
[25:08] of puberty?
[25:09] Some will say that. The Quran doesn't
[25:11] say that. Sura 65:4 basically says you
[25:14] Women who haven't menstruated, you
[25:16] they're they're free game, you know. It
[25:17] does say that. It's talking about the
[25:19] iddah, the period you wait between If
[25:22] you divorce a woman when she get re-
[25:23] remarried. And so they ask him, "Well,
[25:25] what about don't menstruate?" And
[25:27] Muhammad's like, "Well, if they've not
[25:28] menstruated," and all the tough suras
[25:29] say it refers to women of any age, you
[25:31] know, young that haven't menstruated
[25:33] yet.
[25:33] >> referring to post-menopausal women.
[25:34] >> Yeah, they got to wait 3 months before
[25:36] they So, if you So, basically what that
[25:38] that that that verse of the Quran is
[25:39] saying, Sura 65:4 is like a 6-year-old
[25:43] can be married off, the guy can sleep
[25:44] with her, and then he can divorce her,
[25:46] and then they have to wait 3 months to
[25:47] repeat the process.
[25:49] Okay. Yeah.
[25:51] It's horrible. It's evil. But I mean,
[25:52] are there not Muslim academics who would
[25:56] go, "You're picking a crazy person on
[25:59] the internet called Daniel whatever,
[26:01] who's pushing an interpretation of the
[26:02] scripture that we actually don't hold
[26:04] to, and therefore you're attacking a
[26:05] straw man."
[26:07] He's got hundreds of thousands of
[26:09] followers. I'm not attacking a straw
[26:10] man, I'm attacking mainstream thought in
[26:12] Islam. Sure, there are some
[26:14] intellectuals, some academics, that take
[26:16] a more moderate view. Uh they're not the
[26:20] they These are not the spokesmen for
[26:22] Islam. The people that I'm debating the
[26:25] people that I'm trying to the people
[26:26] that I'm attacking
[26:28] uh like Muhammad Hijab, Ali Dawah,
[26:30] Daniel Haqiqatju. These are the
[26:31] spokespeople for mainstream Islam.
[26:33] >> basically to this what you're saying.
[26:35] >> They do, yeah.
[26:35] >> agree with the sex slavery, and they
[26:37] would agree with child marriage.
[26:38] Absolutely.
[26:39] >> This is really hard for my brain to wrap
[26:41] around. But think about how
[26:42] >> Sounds insane. And we are opening the
[26:44] door and letting them flood into our
[26:46] civilization, acting like, "Well, they
[26:48] can just they'll just fit right in." No,
[26:50] they won't. They're They're here to
[26:51] dominate. They're here to
[26:53] >> [sighs]
[26:54] >> take over and turn these into Islamic
[26:58] countries where you
[26:59] >> what's taken place in London with the
[27:01] with the
[27:02] that's been taking place?
[27:03] >> Yeah, it's absolutely horrible. Yeah.
[27:05] And this is a result of Islam, you'd
[27:07] say?
[27:07] >> It's It's definitely Islam is definitely
[27:09] influencing their thought. Absolutely. I
[27:12] mean, it the the the Quran says the
[27:14] pattern of conduct for Muslims is
[27:16] Muhammad. It's in Sura 33, for example.
[27:19] Yeah, you have to submit to all of his
[27:21] decisions. That's in Sura 4.
[27:23] So, what he says, you have to you can't
[27:25] question it.
[27:27] He said it was okay to consummate a
[27:29] marriage to a 9-year-old.
[27:30] He That's statutory He raped a
[27:32] 9-year-old. He's a pedophile. There
[27:33] there So, therefore, in the Muslim
[27:35] brain, having sex with a 9-year-old is
[27:37] okay because the prophet did it. And
[27:39] now,
[27:40] sure, there 5 1% of Muslims maybe don't
[27:44] think that happened, but like 85% round
[27:47] that figure are Sunni Muslims that
[27:49] accept the Hadith. And there are
[27:51] numerous, I mean, dozens of Hadith that
[27:52] say that that's what Muhammad did. So,
[27:54] the overwhelming majority are going to
[27:57] be
[27:58] people that are going to be okay with
[28:00] child marriage. Even if they're not
[28:01] engaging with it, if they saw another
[28:03] Muslim doing it, they can't say anything
[28:04] about it.
[28:07] Are there women influences in Islam
[28:10] other than that blonde lady? Yeah, there
[28:12] there there are some, yeah. And and how
[28:14] do they
[28:15] interact with these texts?
[28:16] >> They just have to defend it. It's It's
[28:18] terrifying to watch. You'll see them.
[28:20] Really? They'll try to justify it.
[28:22] I I don't know how you can justify this.
[28:25] It you You know, we're Christians. We'd
[28:27] be like, "Okay, listen, yeah.
[28:29] Moses did some bad things.
[28:31] That doesn't mean we Mhm. Okay, cancel.
[28:34] David. Yeah. David.
[28:35] >> Peter. Yeah. Yeah. Moses did something
[28:37] horrible in Numbers 31. I agree.
[28:39] We don't We don't We just say, "Yeah, he
[28:41] They messed up. All have sinned and
[28:42] fallen short of the glory of God." Yeah.
[28:44] Only Jesus is perfect. Mhm. Okay.
[28:48] For For Muslims, they can't do that.
[28:49] They have a They have a doctrine that
[28:51] prophets can't commit major sins.
[28:53] So, they have to defend whatever
[28:54] Muhammad did as if it's moral. Mhm. So,
[28:57] it's different for us.
[28:58] >> if you were to condemn
[29:00] marital relations with a 9-year-old,
[29:02] you'd be condemning Muhammad.
[29:04] Absolutely. Is there anyone with a
[29:06] significant platform that condemns? Not
[29:08] that I've seen. I wish. That's That's
[29:10] ridiculous. Yeah. So, okay, then why is
[29:12] it that you think
[29:14] most people watching us right now, many
[29:16] will be like, "This is I don't believe
[29:18] you because I encounter Muslims and they
[29:20] don't say these things that you're
[29:21] saying. They just seem like decent
[29:23] people. They say their prayers. They
[29:25] seem more faithful to their prayers than
[29:26] Christians.
[29:27] This is hate-mongering. You're You're
[29:29] just trying to stir up animosity towards
[29:31] a minority group." My My first question
[29:34] is is where are you talking to? Where
[29:36] Where are you when you're talking to
[29:37] them? The Uber.
[29:39] The Uber?
[29:39] >> giving it an Uber. I'm just giving you
[29:41] an example like
[29:42] They're not going to say this stuff out
[29:44] loud because they know it's going to
[29:46] upset Westerners.
[29:48] That's what we have to remember. Okay,
[29:50] the Look at we have Muhammad as the
[29:52] pattern of conduct. Look at what
[29:54] Muhammad did when he was in Mecca, when
[29:56] he was a small persecuted minority, the
[29:58] Muslim community.
[29:59] You know, he tried to assimilate. He
[30:00] tried to be peaceful. He tried to say,
[30:01] "We're just not going to do anything."
[30:03] Then he moved to Medina and he got more
[30:04] power and then he started waging wars.
[30:07] He started flexing his muscles a little
[30:08] bit. And then when they became the
[30:10] overwhelming majority, then it was like,
[30:12] "No more Jews and Christians allowed in
[30:13] Arabia. Let's kill all the pagans."
[30:16] It's It's a It's a It's a three-stage
[30:17] plan. When you're the minority, just you
[30:19] know, pretend to be peaceful. Ibn
[30:21] Kathir, one of their one of their famous
[30:23] scholars, talked about this. You can
[30:24] make temporary treaties with them. Then
[30:27] when you become more of a substantial
[30:28] minority, start flexing your muscles a
[30:30] little bit. Start saying, "Well, we want
[30:32] to We want to blast the Islamic prayer
[30:34] five times a day, even at 5:30 in the
[30:35] morning," which we're seeing in places
[30:36] like Dearborn now. Godly.
[30:40] Then when they become the majority,
[30:41] okay, now we're in charge, Sharia is the
[30:43] law, you can either convert, you can be
[30:45] our dimmies, which means you're a Jew or
[30:47] Christian, you pay a humiliating tax,
[30:50] uh or you or you um fight us and we kill
[30:52] you. Like, you get those options,
[30:54] basically. Uh you can you can either
[30:56] convert, be our dimmy,
[30:58] where you're not going to have freedom
[30:59] of speech, not have freedom of religion.
[31:01] You're not And I mean, you see this, you
[31:03] know, in you Islamic countries now. Or,
[31:06] you know, or the third option is you
[31:07] fight them. But, um Christians in like,
[31:09] you know, Egypt, they can't proselytize,
[31:11] they can't evangelize. Sharia law says,
[31:14] you know, you can't proselytize as a
[31:15] Christian, you can't evangelize.
[31:17] You can't even carry weapons, so second
[31:19] amendment gone under Islam, absolutely.
[31:21] No
[31:23] no weapons for the Jews and Christians,
[31:24] absolutely under Islam.
[31:26] Uh you can't build or repair new
[31:28] churches under Sharia.
[31:30] You just have to let them because the
[31:31] goal is to eventually take over. So,
[31:34] they're not going to force you to be
[31:35] Muslim, but they're going to make it
[31:37] very, very hard for you to be a
[31:39] non-Muslim.
[31:40] So, we have tried a lot of different
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[34:35] I was in the Middle East
[34:37] giving some talks a while back and I met
[34:40] a group of Christians from Saudi Arabia.
[34:42] It was amazing to hear their story. Have
[34:44] I told you this? Mhm. The problem with
[34:46] [clears throat] having a podcast is you
[34:47] forget how much you've said to people.
[34:49] And we've you've been on the show
[34:50] before, but yeah, I said there's this
[34:52] guy who's a driver and he drives around
[34:54] and picks up the Christians in secret
[34:56] and brings them to this house
[34:58] and it's the priest's house and um they
[35:00] have a couple of people around the
[35:02] perimeter with cell phones to call if
[35:04] the police are coming.
[35:06] They always have a birthday cake in the
[35:07] fridge so they can quickly turn the Holy
[35:10] Mass celebration into someone's birthday
[35:13] if they have to. And this I'm sitting
[35:14] across from them and I just feel
[35:16] so ashamed at how cowardly I sometimes
[35:19] am about my faith and I look at these
[35:20] people and really proud of them. They're
[35:22] like, "Would you like to come and talk?"
[35:24] And I'm like, "I don't I mean, yes, but
[35:26] also no."
[35:28] They talked about this conference they
[35:30] tried to have and it was in a barn. In
[35:33] Saudi Arabia?
[35:34] >> Yeah, I don't Okay, conference might be
[35:36] too strong a word, but it was some
[35:37] gathering at a barn
[35:39] and the police pulled over because there
[35:40] was a bunch of shoes outside of the barn
[35:43] and Mhm. they said to me, "You wouldn't
[35:45] be executed. They're just
[35:47] That's great, yeah. Go I'll tell my
[35:48] wife. You'll just be uh deported, but
[35:51] but if you but if you if you lived there
[35:54] um you'd be beheaded." Yeah. Send me,
[35:56] I'll go. Uh Yeah? Yeah, we got to do
[35:59] something about this. It's bad.
[36:01] Uh there you know, that that's what they
[36:03] will do in the UK.
[36:04] >> Pilgrimage, let's do it. Who's with me
[36:07] in the comments? No, maybe maybe you and
[36:09] I can go. I'll do it. Yeah, I'll
[36:10] definitely go and help them. I mean like
[36:12] we need to. And uh well, the worst they
[36:14] can do is kill us.
[36:16] Yeah.
[36:17] >> It's not bad. We're going to get a new
[36:18] body anyway and then
[36:20] the way I the way you know, the worst
[36:22] they can do is make me into a martyr and
[36:24] as Tertullian said, "The blood of the
[36:25] martyrs is the seed of the new church."
[36:27] And that's Well, you might not need to
[36:28] go there cuz aren't you going to
[36:29] Dearborn, Michigan soon? I would love
[36:31] to, yeah. I'm going to go You might. So,
[36:34] tell me about what's going on in
[36:35] Dearborn, Michigan. Are you following
[36:36] it?
[36:36] >> It's awful, yeah. They It's so this
[36:38] Muslims are brought in
[36:40] long time ago to work in Henry Ford's
[36:42] factories and they've just taken over
[36:43] that specific area and they've turned it
[36:45] into like a satellite Islamic, you know,
[36:48] culture, civilization and
[36:51] Yeah. So, yeah, it's that they're
[36:52] blasting the adhan, the prayer the
[36:54] Muslim prayer five times a day. They're
[36:56] It's like their schools are like 99%
[36:58] Muslim. I mean, like this is
[37:01] They're they'll have, [snorts] you know,
[37:02] rallies there chanting death to America.
[37:04] I mean, like you're Americans, I
[37:06] thought. Like What do you I mean, it's
[37:08] easy to point to Islam and point out the
[37:10] errors and fair enough, we should always
[37:12] do that. But also like what does that
[37:13] say about
[37:15] us
[37:16] that we have apostatized as a nation and
[37:18] abandoned Christ and the faith? Yeah,
[37:20] it's it's terrifying.
[37:21] >> We've said that men can have periods,
[37:23] that fornication is okay, that
[37:25] prostitution is sex work.
[37:27] That's the other kind of part of this
[37:29] argument for Islam that I can see. Like
[37:31] someone go Okay, it's simple, the
[37:33] brotherhood thing, it's masculine. Also,
[37:35] I don't know. Like are there
[37:37] Are there queers for Palestine in
[37:39] Palestine? Like are there No, they throw
[37:40] them all off of buildings. No. Is that
[37:42] right? Oh, yeah, you can't be
[37:44] you can't be publicly queer in Islam.
[37:48] You can be privately, I mean, because
[37:50] they don't want to bring shame to the
[37:51] community.
[37:52] Uh
[37:53] that's that's a problem happening. But I
[37:55] mean, like
[37:57] you're not going to get rid of all that
[37:58] sin just by going to Islam. They just
[38:00] sanction it. Again, you can have four
[38:02] wives, you can have as many
[38:04] sex slaves as you want. You can have
[38:06] child marriage. I mean, like
[38:09] marriage is not a sacrament in Islam.
[38:11] It's a contract.
[38:13] So, if a husband decides he wants to
[38:15] divorce his wife and get a new one, he
[38:16] can just do that. It's uh It's a lot
[38:18] harder in Christianity to do that
[38:21] because it's a you're violating a
[38:22] sacrament.
[38:24] Uh this is know, this is something this
[38:26] is a holy matrimony
[38:28] set up by God. I wonder if the reason
[38:31] you see people like Tucker Carlson going
[38:33] against the kind of main
[38:36] I don't know the kind of understanding
[38:37] that you and I would have against Islam
[38:38] is um
[38:40] he rightly looks at the state of America
[38:43] and the state of morals within our
[38:44] country and despairs over it. Yeah, I I
[38:47] I criticize
[38:48] >> the argument isn't Islam or or American
[38:51] culture as it currently exists. That's
[38:53] not what we're saying. No, no, yeah.
[38:55] >> As it currently exists is absolutely
[38:56] depraved and damnable and America
[38:58] doesn't exist to We don't deserve to
[39:00] exist as a country. Like when you're
[39:01] offering free sex changes {quote}
[39:03] {unquote} to prisoners,
[39:05] I don't know
[39:08] I don't think you deserve to exist at
[39:09] all as a country, but I definitely don't
[39:11] think you deserve to exist as a country
[39:13] when you're allowing pornography on
[39:15] airplanes.
[39:16] Delta flights, they allow sex scenes in
[39:18] front of children cuz they apparently
[39:19] hate children. So I get the outrage
[39:22] against the depravity of where we are.
[39:25] So anyway, that's it. I just wanted to
[39:27] say that. Well, I mean like it's it's
[39:28] not going to fix anything. I mean that
[39:30] Take something in Islam like polygamy.
[39:32] You may think, "Well, what's wrong with
[39:33] having four wives?"
[39:35] Well, humans have produced roughly
[39:37] 50/50% men and women. What happens when
[39:41] you have a society that has polygamy?
[39:42] Just do the math. If the top 10% each
[39:44] have four wives,
[39:46] okay, that means like the bottom 30% of
[39:48] men
[39:50] will be single. What do they do? They
[39:52] join terrorist organizations. They join
[39:54] gangs. They get more violent. People say
[39:56] that most terrorism happens in the
[39:58] Islamic world. Yeah,
[39:59] I I believe you because again, you have
[40:02] a bunch of violent young men with no
[40:03] hope of a future.
[40:05] Uh this is what the ancient societies
[40:07] did when they had large harems for the
[40:09] elites. They sent all their men to die
[40:10] and fight in wars.
[40:12] So we're not now the West sort of
[40:14] controls everything. They can't really
[40:15] do that. So, this is why they either
[40:19] there's so many Islamic terrorist
[40:20] organizations. I mean, you're not going
[40:22] to fix anything by going to Islam.
[40:25] You're going to have different problems.
[40:28] And they're in many ways they're going
[40:29] to be worse problems. Like cutting off
[40:31] your head to stop a nosebleed. Yeah,
[40:33] it's that's a good analogy, yeah. You've
[40:35] just made it way worse. Mhm. Tell me
[40:37] about this debate you had recently with
[40:38] the fellow who tried to argue that since
[40:41] Islam means submission to God
[40:43] and Jesus submitted to God, therefore
[40:46] Jesus was a Muslim. Is am I getting that
[40:47] right?
[40:48] >> Yeah, his name is Hassan Shibly.
[40:50] He's a he's a attorney in the US.
[40:53] Uh very nice guy. One of the one of the
[40:54] Muslims I wish would be more it's like
[40:57] this, you know, it's
[40:58] >> Does he disagree with child marriage? I
[41:00] hope so. I didn't ask him that, but I
[41:01] he's
[41:02] I think he would. I I think he would. I
[41:04] wish he was more of the spokesman for
[41:06] Islam, not people like Muhammad Hijab.
[41:09] Uh
[41:10] you know, and then Hassan will debate.
[41:12] Muhammad Hijab will never debate me.
[41:14] Uh but I mean, Hassan will.
[41:16] So, but we debated is Jesus a Muslim?
[41:18] And yeah, it's the silliest position
[41:20] ever. Uh they
[41:22] I just basically pointed out, okay, then
[41:24] I'm a Muslim. I submit to God. Well, you
[41:26] don't submit the right way. Well, okay,
[41:27] well, define what that is.
[41:29] Basically, the Quran says Jesus was a
[41:31] Muslim, so they have to say Jesus was a
[41:33] Muslim
[41:34] and then they have to have the most ad
[41:37] hoc definition,
[41:38] the most convoluted responses where
[41:41] okay, to be a Muslim means you submit to
[41:43] God, but as long as you submit to God
[41:45] the way I want and I think Jesus did,
[41:46] therefore Jesus was a Muslim. Mhm. And
[41:49] you just bring up stuff like, well,
[41:50] Jesus said that he's the son of God.
[41:52] Jesus said he's going to die and atone
[41:54] for sins.
[41:55] Jesus claimed to be divine. He claimed
[41:56] to be God.
[41:58] Now what? And so I started bringing that
[41:59] stuff up to him, and of course he had no
[42:00] response. Wouldn't the response be that
[42:03] the scriptures that you read have been
[42:04] corrupted? And I simply asked, well, why
[42:06] does your scriptures confirm mine?
[42:09] Maybe they weren't corrupted in the 10th
[42:10] century, 11th century.
[42:11] >> The 7th century?
[42:12] >> Sorry, 7th century. I'm thinking of
[42:13] orthodoxy, sorry. 7th century, yeah.
[42:15] Yeah, so false. We have Codex
[42:17] Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex
[42:19] Alexandrinus,
[42:21] I think that's how it's pronounced.
[42:22] Uh all these codices from prior to Islam
[42:25] that show the same message.
[42:26] >> that they were corrupted at the time of
[42:27] Islam,
[42:29] you would expect these, yeah, documents
[42:31] from that time period to be corrupted,
[42:33] and yet they're not. Yeah, and again,
[42:35] the Quran in Surah 2:41, 4:47,
[42:39] 5:43 to 5
[42:42] 48, 5:68, 10:94, 29:46 confirms our
[42:46] scriptures. Tells us to believe Tells
[42:48] Jews and Christians to believe in the
[42:50] scriptures you have. Use those
[42:52] scriptures as
[42:53] over and over again, like a beating
[42:55] drum, the Quran is confirming our
[42:56] scriptures. So, if they start attacking
[42:59] our scriptures, they they're debunking
[43:00] Islam. There's no debate a Muslim can
[43:02] have with a Christian
[43:04] on the topic of Islam versus
[43:05] Christianity, which is true, which they
[43:07] can win. Okay. Because I can just say
[43:09] the best you can do is lose or come out
[43:11] tie. Cuz if you attack my scriptures,
[43:13] I'm going to just point out your
[43:14] scriptures confirm mine. So, what are
[43:16] you doing? So, what's the tie? How would
[43:17] they tie? Because they could say that
[43:19] they're both false. Oh. I mean, because
[43:21] >> seem like a tie. It seems like they
[43:23] would lose. Exactly. So,
[43:25] this is the conundrum the Quran gives
[43:27] them, because the Quran over and over
[43:29] again confirms our scriptures.
[43:31] And the Quran says we can find Muhammad
[43:33] in our Bible.
[43:34] Now, Where? Surah 7:157. Yeah, but I
[43:37] mean, where in the Bible? Oh, that says
[43:39] that somewhere in the Torah or in the
[43:40] Gospel. The snake. That that might be
[43:42] it, yeah. Maybe it's the the talking
[43:44] donkey that that spoke to Balaam, I
[43:46] don't know.
[43:47] But think about this, that creates a
[43:48] paradox for Muslims, because the Quran
[43:50] says they have to find Muhammad in our
[43:52] scriptures.
[43:53] But our scriptures, the prophecies in
[43:55] our book
[43:56] are theologically indexed. They teach
[43:59] Christian theology.
[44:01] So, [snorts] any prophet our scriptures
[44:03] predict would have to be in line
[44:06] with what the Bible teaches.
[44:08] So, this is another dilemma for Muslims.
[44:10] If there's a future prophet in the
[44:13] Bible,
[44:14] Islam is false because he'd have to
[44:16] preach Christianity. But if there is no
[44:19] future prophet in the Bible, then Islam
[44:22] is also false because Islam says there's
[44:24] supposed to be. So, that's another
[44:25] dilemma. I call it the biblical prophet
[44:27] dilemma. Either way, Islam is false. So,
[44:29] this is a paradox the Quran creates for
[44:31] Muslims. Find Muhammad in their
[44:33] scriptures. But if they find a future
[44:35] prophet, Islam is false. If they don't,
[44:37] Islam is false.
[44:41] So, even though maybe in the West, it
[44:43] appears to us that Islam is on the rise.
[44:46] And maybe that just is the fact of the
[44:47] matter. Mhm. But what's taken place in
[44:49] traditionally Muslim countries? Are they
[44:51] thriving? Are they seeing a resurgence,
[44:53] a return to Islam? Is it No. Internet is
[44:56] killing Islam.
[44:57] >> How so?
[44:58] >> [sighs and gasps]
[44:59] >> People are getting the People are
[44:59] getting this information out.
[45:00] >> Minds of the Quranist. This show. This
[45:02] show right here.
[45:03] >> Wood and you and yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't
[45:05] God logic in the world?
[45:06] >> Really? So, what do you mean it's
[45:06] killing Islam? I mean,
[45:08] you have this you have this these
[45:10] arguments being presented. Is that the
[45:12] basic point that
[45:12] >> That's part of it. But think of the
[45:13] psychology. So, the the more of it Islam
[45:16] teaches they're meant to be a
[45:17] dominating, conquesting religion.
[45:20] They're meant to go out and take over
[45:21] the world. It's theirs. They can't right
[45:23] now. They're They're They're being
[45:24] dominated by the West. We have turned
[45:26] Islamic countries into our dimmies, so
[45:29] to speak. They work for the United
[45:31] States. I mean, look at like
[45:33] Saudi Arabia. They They just you know,
[45:35] when when we start attacking Iran, they
[45:37] do our bidding.
[45:38] Uh
[45:40] That's just And so, to them, they this
[45:42] they have this inferiority complex
[45:43] because their their holy book says
[45:45] they're supposed to be dominating the
[45:47] world.
[45:48] So, they're supposed to be dominating.
[45:50] Okay.
[45:50] >> They're not.
[45:52] So, they're going, "Well, okay. I can't
[45:53] drink alcohol. I can't eat pork. I can't
[45:55] dance. I can't listen to music.
[45:57] What am Like it it it's psychologically
[45:59] upsetting them because they're supposed
[46:00] to be dominating. The West is dominating
[46:02] them. So, it bothers them.
[46:04] So, people are worried about Islam
[46:05] taking over. I am, too. I think we need
[46:08] to fight this and do something about it,
[46:10] but let's let's there's a a brighter
[46:12] picture also in this as well. So,
[46:14] I looked up the numbers. The non- the
[46:16] non-Muslim birth rate, global non-Muslim
[46:18] birth rate, is 2.2. Okay. The Muslim
[46:21] birth rate is 2.9. So, you go, "Oh, no."
[46:24] Hold up. There's also some Muslim imams
[46:27] will admit 24 to 26% of youth are
[46:30] leaving Islam. Mhm. There's clips online
[46:32] of them these different imams saying,
[46:34] "We're having We're dealing with an
[46:35] avalanche of apostasy."
[46:36] >> Really? So, I'm going to go, "24% of
[46:39] Muslim youth are leaving Islam."
[46:41] Now, do the numbers. Now, is that
[46:43] because of hedonism and all sorts of
[46:45] >> It's secularism.
[46:46] >> The point is it doesn't matter. They're
[46:47] leaving. They're leaving, yeah. It's
[46:48] It's It's a little bit People are
[46:50] wrestling with the contradictions in the
[46:52] Quran, like the Islamic dilemma. They're
[46:54] wrestling with the inferiority of their
[46:56] civilization, the superiority of the
[46:58] West, the moral problems of Muhammad do
[47:01] does bother them a lot. The fact that he
[47:03] did that, yeah. So, but do the math. If
[47:05] you take 75%
[47:07] of 2.9, it's going to get you to around
[47:10] 2.2. But, if you add that 25% to the
[47:13] 2.2, the non-Muslim birth rate, that's
[47:15] going to make it a little bit higher.
[47:17] So, based on those projections, if 24 to
[47:19] 26% of youth are leaving Islam,
[47:24] they're not going to take over. There
[47:26] There just isn't. Now, we as Christians
[47:28] need to get our birth rates up, for
[47:29] sure. We need to combat secularism, for
[47:31] sure. That's a problem.
[47:33] But, at least on this, not They're not
[47:35] projected to take over like they
[47:37] thought. But, it's almost like we're
[47:38] talking about four different things.
[47:40] We're talking about Christianity per se,
[47:42] and then the cultures that are
[47:44] traditionally Christian, which have
[47:45] become depraved.
[47:46] >> Yeah. And then we're talking about Islam
[47:48] per se, and then the culture that that
[47:51] inculcates in people. So, even if people
[47:54] are apostatizing from Islam,
[47:58] that doesn't mean they're not bringing
[47:59] in their their particular culture into
[48:02] Western countries when they migrate,
[48:03] right? Well, you would think that. But,
[48:06] I mean again, what's the superior
[48:07] culture right now? It's It's Western
[48:08] civilization.
[48:10] As far as force is concerned, yes. As
[48:12] far as we've seen, I've not seen a
[48:14] an ex-Muslim that is like, "Yeah, I'm
[48:16] I'm still as
[48:17] culturally Muslim." No, they want to
[48:19] become Westerners. Yeah, but what I mean
[48:21] is it's not like
[48:23] they're leaving aside their
[48:25] violent passions necessarily when they
[48:28] leave Islam, are they?
[48:29] I mean, some might if there's like a
[48:31] virtual virtue revolution.
[48:33] That's a good question.
[48:35] Yeah, I I don't I don't actually know.
[48:37] I've I've I've not seen that though,
[48:38] that's what I'll say. A lot of the
[48:39] people that I I deal with, a lot of the
[48:41] ex-Muslims I talk to, they just they
[48:43] become Christian or they're atheist, and
[48:46] they they just they're more Westernized
[48:48] than anything else. I I think one of the
[48:50] good things we need to remember is what
[48:52] what what we know is that Christianity
[48:53] really has saturated the world and its
[48:56] culture. People think like Christians
[48:58] even if they don't realize it. Whether
[49:00] you're Muslim or not, I mean, like this
[49:02] is why people are so bothered by the
[49:04] moral problems of Muhammad today, and
[49:06] they weren't a thousand years ago.
[49:08] Because Christianity has saturated our
[49:10] culture and made it made it implemented
[49:13] in our brains that having sex with
[49:15] children is wrong. The ancients didn't
[49:17] think like that. The Greeks, the Romans,
[49:19] uh the scholar John Martins notes that
[49:21] early Christians like coined a new term
[49:23] that meant child corruptor. Cuz they
[49:25] didn't want to use the traditional term
[49:26] that meant child lover. So, they coined
[49:28] a new Greek term that meant child
[49:30] corruptor, and they really started
[49:31] pushing this culture that having sex
[49:34] with children is wrong, which wasn't the
[49:35] norm in the ancient pagan culture. In
[49:38] in Islam, it was normal as well to have
[49:40] sex with children. And what is Why do we
[49:42] now think that's all evil? Has
[49:44] everything to do with Christianity
[49:46] changing the culture? So, even this
[49:47] dying culture in which we live is
[49:49] running on on fumes of Christianity when
[49:51] it condemns things like slavery and
[49:53] child sex and racism and
[49:55] >> only reason slavery's gone is because of
[49:57] Christianity.
[49:58] You know, like when missionaries went
[50:00] off to Morocco, they went to
[50:02] abolitionists went there. They went to
[50:04] one of the governors there and they were
[50:05] like, "We're here to like campaign
[50:06] against slavery." And the guy the
[50:08] governor in there in Morocco said,
[50:10] "Well, we can't. That's against our
[50:11] religion."
[50:12] Because, you know, Islam is
[50:15] all pro-slavery and Christianity is the
[50:18] is what gave
[50:19] the
[50:20] uh the fuel to the abolitionist movement
[50:21] that ended it. I mean, that's just
[50:23] that's just a fact. I mean, if you
[50:25] if you actually study the New Testament,
[50:27] you'll come away with the idea that
[50:28] slavery cannot exist alongside the
[50:31] teachings of the New Testament. I can do
[50:32] it three easy steps. Go for it.
[50:33] >> Yeah. So, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7,
[50:36] you cannot sell yourself into slavery.
[50:38] You cannot voluntarily become a slave.
[50:39] All right. Uh
[50:41] 1 Timothy 2 list enslavers as a sin. So,
[50:45] you cannot force anyone to be a slave.
[50:48] So, right then and there, if the early
[50:50] church had followed those teachings
[50:52] perfectly, no new slaves would have been
[50:54] ever been made. They obviously didn't.
[50:55] >> So, you can't make yourself a slave, nor
[50:57] can you be made a slave.
[50:59] >> Exactly. What about those that were
[51:00] already slaves? Well, even on that
[51:03] alone, slavery should have died out if
[51:05] they followed it perfectly. They didn't.
[51:07] But, go to Ephesians 6. Slaves obey your
[51:09] masters. But, notice what Paul says
[51:11] right after that. Masters do likewise
[51:13] also.
[51:14] And scholars like Andrew Lincoln will
[51:16] point out, yeah, he's saying basically
[51:18] this is
[51:19] presenting equality.
[51:20] You're not going to have real slavery
[51:22] can't thrive in this if masters have to
[51:24] treat their slaves the way slaves treat
[51:25] their masters. Everyone serve each
[51:26] other.
[51:27] So, it's a radical take on the position.
[51:30] But, that would have that that's the
[51:33] fuel that
[51:34] uh
[51:35] gave rise to the abolitionist movement
[51:36] later on. And
[51:38] yeah, it didn't happen right away. But,
[51:40] if you actually study European history,
[51:42] they were doing so many things to end
[51:44] slavery. You'll see this pope be like,
[51:45] "All right, no more
[51:47] uh owning slaves in this area.
[51:49] We're going to ban the Venetian slave
[51:50] trade here. And then you see, you know,
[51:52] so eventually they were making these
[51:54] incremental steps towards ending
[51:56] slavery. People don't realize it. I did
[51:57] a video called how Christianity ended
[51:59] slavery when to when to huge detail on
[52:01] that. So by the time you get to like the
[52:03] 1500s, there's no more slaves in Europe.
[52:06] So what do they do? They go to Africa to
[52:08] get their slaves.
[52:09] And then there's a book called by
[52:12] Catherine Gerbner.
[52:15] She points out that when they brought
[52:16] slaves to the sugar islands, missionary
[52:18] showed up and they were like, we want to
[52:20] convert the slaves. And the slave
[52:21] masters were like, no, because if you
[52:23] convert them, we'll have to free them.
[52:26] So what could be more evil than
[52:28] preventing missionaries to try to
[52:29] convert slaves? Try to convert slaves,
[52:31] but but you got to think about it
[52:33] though, like
[52:34] Christianity didn't just wake up one day
[52:35] and decide to end slavery. If you study
[52:37] the history, you go through it,
[52:39] you know, you see them making small
[52:41] incremental steps to get rid of slavery.
[52:43] Like St. Anselm for example was
[52:44] campaigning against slavery.
[52:46] There were various, you know, like popes
[52:48] that would like ban like the Venetian
[52:50] slave trade or no more Jews owning
[52:52] slaves. Okay, no more Christians owning
[52:54] each other Christians as slaves. So
[52:57] yeah, Christianity gave rise to the
[52:59] abolitionist movement. It ended slavery.
[53:02] I wish it would have happened faster,
[53:03] but it did slowly end it because it took
[53:05] a while for Christianity to saturate and
[53:07] slowly change the culture.
[53:10] So you, David Wood, Apostate Prophet and
[53:13] other fellows out there are doing really
[53:15] great work.
[53:16] >> Thank you. I was so honored to have both
[53:17] David and Apostate Prophet. I don't know
[53:18] why I keep calling him that. That's his
[53:21] Yeah. We just call him AP. AP.
[53:24] It was great to see the kind of work you
[53:26] all are doing. What kind of messages do
[53:28] you get from Muslims other than death
[53:30] threats? Are you getting people write to
[53:31] you who are genuinely questioning
[53:33] whether they should leave Islam? Mhm.
[53:36] We'll get we'll do we do call-in
[53:37] streams. Okay. Come in and debate us,
[53:39] show us Islam is true. Do those a lot.
[53:42] Couple weeks ago we had a kid call in
[53:44] named Liam. Call in stream is still up.
[53:47] Liam? Liam. Yeah, he was a convert
[53:48] Convert to Islam?
[53:49] >> traditional Islamic name there? Yeah,
[53:51] no. He He converted when he was 18. He
[53:53] was 20 years old, but within an hour of
[53:55] talking to him he was broke down in
[53:56] tears and left Islam. Bless him. How did
[53:59] that conversation go? I mean, people can
[54:01] go look it up. Maybe you can send me the
[54:02] link, please. We'll put it below for
[54:04] people to check out, but sum it up.
[54:05] >> Yeah, it's I We just started showing
[54:07] them problems in Islam.
[54:09] Then he was He was very open to it. So,
[54:11] like we can kind of tell. And so, then
[54:12] we just started presenting the gospel
[54:13] and he
[54:14] I just It just
[54:16] I don't I I don't think we did anything.
[54:18] It was the spirit.
[54:19] The Holy Spirit did that.
[54:21] >> came on
[54:22] to question or to be aggressive with
[54:24] you? How
[54:24] >> No, he just wanted to have a
[54:25] conversation. He was not being
[54:26] aggressive. Sometimes you'll get the
[54:27] macho man Muslim coming I'm going to
[54:29] refute you and show off to my boys.
[54:31] >> Where does he live, this Liam? I don't
[54:32] know. We didn't He didn't say. We He
[54:33] sounded English though, speaking.
[54:34] >> He was American, yeah.
[54:36] Yeah.
[54:37] >> And he called and you just sort of It
[54:40] sound I mean, do you think he called
[54:41] wanting to get out? Wanting for a
[54:43] reason? I don't think he he realized it.
[54:45] I think again the spirit moved. Wow. I
[54:47] He just when we started just talking
[54:49] about it and uh
[54:51] you know, he's like, you know, he
[54:52] somehow we got on the topic of, you
[54:54] know,
[54:54] the God of Islam really doesn't love us,
[54:56] but you know, he's just he you you can
[54:58] only be his slaves. Right. You can't be
[55:01] a son in Islam. And And like, but you
[55:04] know, God does love you. That's why he
[55:06] died for you. And I just it started to
[55:08] break things down and he broke into
[55:10] tears. He says, "I feel like I'm Judas
[55:12] because I betrayed Christ." And I said,
[55:14] "You're not Judas, man. You're Peter.
[55:16] Peter betrayed Christ, too."
[55:18] And but
[55:19] Christ called him back. He didn't kill
[55:21] himself and Christ called him back. So,
[55:23] that's you now. You now go out and be
[55:25] like Peter.
[55:26] And that's that's cuz you got to think
[55:28] in the ancient world what Peter did
[55:30] to the ancient mindset, him betraying
[55:33] Jesus, that was a that was a death
[55:35] sentence
[55:36] to the ancient mind. You betrayed your
[55:39] lord. You should either be killed or
[55:41] never return to him.
[55:43] And Jesus shows up and says, "Peter, do
[55:45] you love me?" And he goes, "Yes. Go feed
[55:47] my sheep."
[55:48] So, that's the beauty of Christianity,
[55:50] and that's
[55:51] what we're saying. Like, listen, all
[55:53] Muslims, you can be have that same
[55:55] experience as well.
[55:56] But, [snorts] don't
[55:58] isn't isn't Allah referred to as the
[56:00] most merciful and compassionate?
[56:03] Like, he the
[56:04] Like, you make all the claims you want.
[56:05] If you're not actually that, you're not.
[56:08] Listen, there's a difference between
[56:10] Christianity and all the world
[56:11] religions. I mean, look at Allah. He's
[56:12] up on his throne throwing down commands.
[56:14] Do this or I'll send you to hell. Do
[56:16] that or I'll torture you forever.
[56:18] Only in Christianity did does God get
[56:20] off his throne and come down to us
[56:22] and say, "I'll live the way you should
[56:24] live, and I'll die the death you deserve
[56:26] and so that I can take you to my
[56:28] father."
[56:29] It's vastly different because Jesus is
[56:31] not a god who says, "Go and do as I say
[56:33] or else."
[56:34] But, a god who says, "Come and follow
[56:35] me. You do as I do, and we'll change
[56:37] this world washing one sinner at a
[56:39] time."
[56:41] And so, which is really the most
[56:43] compassionate and loving? Which is the
[56:46] most merciful? Well, it's clearly the
[56:47] god who's on the cross, not the god
[56:49] who's on his throne and never leaves it.
[56:51] Yeah.
[56:52] What suggestions do you have for those
[56:55] engaged in either online apologetics or
[56:58] in-person apologetics to try to point
[57:01] out the errors of Islam and to convert
[57:02] people?
[57:03] Use the Islamic dilemma. Yeah.
[57:05] >> It's It's
[57:06] Man, that's that's their kryptonite.
[57:07] They don't like that. Show them the
[57:10] biblical prophet dilemma that I've
[57:11] talked about.
[57:12] Start showing that stuff. Show them the
[57:14] moral problems of Muhammad. Show them
[57:16] the moral problems of Islam. I mean,
[57:18] there's research that shows Islam leads
[57:19] to violence.
[57:21] Uh leads to wife beating.
[57:23] There's a meta-ethnography was done
[57:25] showing, yeah, that we see that there's
[57:27] higher rates of domestic violence from
[57:29] Islamic families. Is this really a
[57:30] culture that God made? Is this really
[57:33] what the world that God wants?
[57:35] Uh I mean there was this great study
[57:37] done by David Brown. He looked at
[57:38] Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism. Yeah.
[57:40] And he found Christianity was negative
[57:42] is negatively associated with more war
[57:44] and violence.
[57:45] Buddhism was non-significant. Islam was
[57:47] positively associated with it.
[57:50] So, show them that kind of stuff.
[57:52] Start breaking down the the again, Islam
[57:54] is like the Wizard of Oz.
[57:56] When you start to break down those
[57:57] barriers,
[57:59] then you can present them the gospel.
[58:01] It to witness to Muslims, which we got
[58:03] to do, you got to first break down the
[58:05] Islamic
[58:07] illusion of superiority of truth. And
[58:10] then when you do that, then you can
[58:11] present the gospel to them. And that's
[58:12] the going to be the best way. So, use
[58:15] the Islamic dilemma, show them the Quran
[58:17] is contradicting itself through and
[58:19] through, show them that the Muhammad's
[58:21] not in our Bible, even if he was that
[58:22] means Islam is false.
[58:24] Show them that Muhammad the 9-year-old
[58:26] and all these immoral things.
[58:28] Show them the Quran Surah 65:4 allows
[58:31] you to have sex with pre-pubescent
[58:32] girls.
[58:34] This is an evil evil religion, and if it
[58:37] takes over the world, we are doomed.
[58:39] Brothers, [snorts] summer's fast
[58:41] approaching, a season we all need for
[58:43] rest and a bit of breathing room. But if
[58:45] we're honest, it's also a time when
[58:46] faith can quietly take the back seat.
[58:48] That's why I'm really excited about what
[58:50] Exodus 90 is doing with the Kings of
[58:51] Summer Challenge. It's a beautiful
[58:53] invitation for men to slow down, pray,
[58:55] and reflect on Christ's kingship over
[58:57] our lives and the astonishing truth that
[59:00] through baptism, we actually share in
[59:02] that kingship ourselves. This year's
[59:04] theme is the return of the king led by
[59:06] one of my favorite people, Joseph
[59:08] Pierce. If you've ever heard Joseph
[59:10] speak or read his work, you know how
[59:11] deeply he ties Tolkien's universe to the
[59:14] heart of our faith. I've had Joseph on
[59:16] the show a couple of times to talk about
[59:18] Tolkien, and he is truly a knowledgeable
[59:21] and inspiring guy.
[59:23] Through the challenge, we'll journey not
[59:24] just through the biblical books of
[59:26] Kings, but through Tolkien's world
[59:28] itself, seeing how the kingship of
[59:30] Christ calls us to order, joy, and
[59:32] renewed purpose.
[59:34] So, if you are longing for a summer
[59:36] that's deeper, uh more centered on
[59:38] Christ, more full of meaning, this is
[59:40] for you. Join the Exodus 90 brotherhood
[59:42] today and sign up for the Kings of
[59:44] Summer Challenge starting May 25th.
[59:46] Download the Exodus 90 app to start your
[59:48] 14-day free trial or visit
[59:50] exodus90.com/matt
[59:52] to learn more. That's exodus90.com/matt.
[59:55] Download the app today and become the
[59:57] man God created you to be.
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[01:01:09] >> [snorts]
[01:01:09] >> Yeah. Who um
[01:01:11] I'm I've heard and I've heard so many
[01:01:13] times that I think there must be
[01:01:15] something to it, but I also am on guard
[01:01:17] against Christians
[01:01:19] um
[01:01:20] you know, just hallucinating this. That
[01:01:22] is it the case that Muslims are dreaming
[01:01:24] of Christ?
[01:01:25] Is it the case that there is a wave of
[01:01:28] Muslims coming to Christ through
[01:01:29] >> I've heard stories, man. I mean, it's
[01:01:31] like you keep hearing it so much, you're
[01:01:32] like
[01:01:33] >> You get this I even heard it from a
[01:01:35] Muslim who didn't convert. He convinced
[01:01:37] himself it was a jinn.
[01:01:39] A jinn meaning for those at home.
[01:01:41] They're they're
[01:01:43] The closest analog is demon, but they're
[01:01:45] not exactly the same in Islam. I had to
[01:01:47] learn that. Uh so, jinn, it's like these
[01:01:49] spiritual things that live on another
[01:01:51] plane of existence. But he said he had a
[01:01:53] dream of Jesus and he convinced himself
[01:01:55] it was a jinn.
[01:01:58] So, you know, that
[01:01:59] >> Yeah.
[01:01:59] Well, who was David's friend who Nabeel
[01:02:01] Qureshi. Yeah, like those dreams. If
[01:02:03] people want to go watch my interview
[01:02:04] with David Wood, he goes into that. Like
[01:02:06] those dreams he had. Didn't he have like
[01:02:07] three of them that were increasingly
[01:02:09] wild? Yeah. That was amazing.
[01:02:11] >> I mean, you know, people in those
[01:02:13] culture are really affected by dreams
[01:02:15] and Jesus is out there still getting
[01:02:18] ready to save people.
[01:02:19] And he still is saving people. He will
[01:02:21] use what works in various cultures.
[01:02:23] Dreams works in Islamic culture.
[01:02:25] I got a I got a friend of mine named Ish
[01:02:27] of Arabia. You've had him on.
[01:02:28] >> Yeah. Uh yeah, he had dreams as well. He
[01:02:30] ignored He said he ignored them for
[01:02:31] several years.
[01:02:33] But that that should tell you something
[01:02:34] right there that sometimes people get
[01:02:37] what they need to convert and they still
[01:02:38] don't do it.
[01:02:40] So, it just it really speaks to what
[01:02:41] Jesus says in the gospels that that they
[01:02:43] had Moses and the prophets, they're
[01:02:44] still not going to believe if someone
[01:02:45] were to rise from the dead.
[01:02:46] >> Yeah, but I mean, think about if you
[01:02:48] tonight had a dream of Muhammad
[01:02:49] proclaiming the truth to you and telling
[01:02:51] you to convert. You would be like, "All
[01:02:52] right."
[01:02:54] No, I you're you're you're exactly
[01:02:55] right, but I would be like, "That is
[01:02:56] some serious evidence. Now I got to
[01:02:59] rethink things."
[01:02:59] >> that's that was the the first time you
[01:03:01] had it, you'd be like, "That was weird."
[01:03:03] So, dreams alone aren't enough, but it
[01:03:06] might open you to the evidence of
[01:03:08] Christianity.
[01:03:08] >> It should. Yeah, it should. Absolutely
[01:03:10] should. And people keep having them.
[01:03:12] I've talked to ex-Muslims who say,
[01:03:13] "Yeah, I had that."
[01:03:14] So,
[01:03:15] God is doing something. Who's the most
[01:03:17] if there is one, formidable Islamic
[01:03:19] debater out there right now?
[01:03:21] Man. Is there one that you're like, "Ah,
[01:03:23] no, I can't debate him.
[01:03:25] He's too good." Man, I want to debate
[01:03:26] them all. It's hard to think.
[01:03:28] >> Really?
[01:03:29] I'll just say Muhammad Hijab so he
[01:03:31] agrees to debate me. But didn't you say
[01:03:32] he didn't want to? What? Didn't you say
[01:03:34] he doesn't want to? Yeah, I don't think
[01:03:35] he wants to. Muhammad Hijab, is that his
[01:03:37] name? Yeah. We I'd love to host a debate
[01:03:40] between him and you, if you want to, on
[01:03:41] the show.
[01:03:42] >> I would do it, yeah. In a heartbeat.
[01:03:43] Okay. We could do it on his Islam is
[01:03:45] true, which is true, Islam or
[01:03:46] Christianity? I don't think he'll do it,
[01:03:48] though.
[01:03:49] Uh
[01:03:50] but yeah, I would debate him.
[01:03:52] Um
[01:03:53] of the Muslims I have debated, I'm
[01:03:55] trying to think who was actually a
[01:03:57] challenge.
[01:03:59] Man,
[01:04:00] I can't It's
[01:04:02] >> And you're not being cocky. You just
[01:04:03] think they It's not Is it that you're so
[01:04:05] good, or is it that they're so bad and
[01:04:07] you're good? I think it's just they're
[01:04:09] just so bad at it. I mean, I like I
[01:04:10] debated Alex O'Connor, he's an atheist,
[01:04:12] tough debater.
[01:04:14] So, I mean, I can I know when I'm
[01:04:15] debating someone who's he knows what
[01:04:17] he's doing.
[01:04:17] >> Right. Uh but in terms of list like
[01:04:19] people, it's hard for me to say cuz
[01:04:22] every Muslim I debated I just it's a
[01:04:23] facepalm after a facepalm.
[01:04:25] >> [sighs]
[01:04:26] >> So, yeah.
[01:04:27] >> And do you chat with Muslims after these
[01:04:29] debates? Sometimes, sometimes no.
[01:04:31] >> "My guy crushed you."
[01:04:34] Yeah, sometimes they'll admit it. But
[01:04:35] then they'll they'll never never on
[01:04:38] camera, I guess you could say.
[01:04:40] Uh but yeah, I don't I don't know, it's
[01:04:41] hard to think right now
[01:04:43] because
[01:04:45] I've not I've I've not debated as many
[01:04:46] Muslims as I want to
[01:04:48] cuz a lot of them turn me down or give
[01:04:50] me some lame excuse or, you know,
[01:04:53] I gave a big list of Muslims to debate
[01:04:56] in the UK to some podcast over there for
[01:04:58] when I go. I heard from them and they're
[01:05:00] like, "We're having a hard time getting
[01:05:01] any of them agree to agree." Do you
[01:05:03] think they're profitable
[01:05:05] debates? Oh, absolutely. Yeah? People
[01:05:08] peo-
[01:05:09] The reason why debates are profitable
[01:05:11] is because you get to talk to an
[01:05:13] audience you're not normally going to
[01:05:14] get to talk to.
[01:05:16] When I debated an atheist in 2017, there
[01:05:19] was people who watched that debate that
[01:05:20] were atheists and they're Christian now.
[01:05:22] Because and that was their first
[01:05:23] introduction to my own ministry and my
[01:05:26] work.
[01:05:27] And so
[01:05:29] yeah, [snorts] absolutely. That's why I
[01:05:30] keep doing them because you get to talk
[01:05:32] to people that are going to watch for
[01:05:33] the other person and some of them
[01:05:36] you want to shake. You want to get them
[01:05:38] to realize, okay, maybe that guy
[01:05:39] actually has something and I should
[01:05:40] consider it and so Well, especially if
[01:05:42] you have the impression that your
[01:05:44] religion is the dominant, advancing,
[01:05:47] aggressive
[01:05:48] right? Religion.
[01:05:50] Um, bringing Christians into submission.
[01:05:53] Right.
[01:05:53] >> that's how you think Islam should work
[01:05:56] and then you watch a debate where you or
[01:05:57] these other fellows school your guy,
[01:06:00] that can't be
[01:06:02] that's got to be embarrassing. Oh yeah,
[01:06:03] absolutely. Yeah. And I've cuz I've
[01:06:05] heard from David that that's why he
[01:06:06] takes more of the aggressive approach.
[01:06:09] That us Christians are like uh Well,
[01:06:11] he's right. There's a reason we hold to
[01:06:13] what we call Judeo-Christian values. We
[01:06:15] don't call them Judeo-Christian-Islamic.
[01:06:17] Why why don't we do that if it's the
[01:06:19] other Abrahamic religion out there?
[01:06:21] Because their values are completely
[01:06:22] different to us. Whereas we, you know,
[01:06:25] having us good casual conversation might
[01:06:27] work better here in the West.
[01:06:29] To them, it's about projecting
[01:06:31] confidence, order, authority, power. And
[01:06:35] you show that and that's going to be
[01:06:36] more appealing to people coming from
[01:06:38] that background, that way of thinking.
[01:06:40] That's why you see them constantly
[01:06:41] thumping their chest for their audience.
[01:06:43] That's kind of their mentality. So, you
[01:06:45] have to come in and sort of show
[01:06:47] you can't come in and be like, "Hey,
[01:06:48] let's just have a nice little
[01:06:49] conversation." No, you got to come in
[01:06:51] and be like, "You're wrong. You're
[01:06:52] holding to a stupid religion. Here's the
[01:06:54] truth. Let me tell you why. Otherwise,
[01:06:56] you're going to go to hell."
[01:06:57] >> Trent Horn released a video yesterday
[01:06:59] where he praised you for your debating
[01:07:00] tactics. Don't know if you saw it or
[01:07:02] not. I did, yeah. I appreciate that.
[01:07:03] >> Yeah, well, his point was uh,
[01:07:05] attacking ideas, attacking stupid faiths
[01:07:09] like Mormonism or Islam.
[01:07:11] Um,
[01:07:12] or modern day Judaism. I'm all I'm all
[01:07:14] for that as well.
[01:07:15] But, um,
[01:07:17] but to attack people like as he says a
[01:07:20] 12-year-old screaming into the Xbox
[01:07:22] headset is not at all what we're called
[01:07:24] to do. Yeah.
[01:07:26] >> So. Well, you got to do you got to you
[01:07:27] got to learn how to do it tactfully.
[01:07:29] Yeah. Yeah, you know, you can't be like
[01:07:31] the 12-year-old screaming, but you also
[01:07:33] have to
[01:07:34] you also have to still sort of project
[01:07:37] that Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's the
[01:07:39] it's kind of like authority, right? Like
[01:07:41] the man who has authority and knows he
[01:07:43] has it,
[01:07:45] he doesn't get worked up.
[01:07:46] >> Exactly.
[01:07:46] >> And, um, he can speak forcefully, but he
[01:07:49] doesn't kind of get shrill. Mhm. It's
[01:07:52] like the times in my own life when I've
[01:07:54] got shrill or have acted out of emotion,
[01:07:57] even if that when that emotion was like
[01:07:58] anger, it's precisely because I don't
[01:08:01] think I have authority or I'm afraid I
[01:08:03] don't have the authority I wish I had.
[01:08:06] Um, and so I think that's right. I mean,
[01:08:08] you just look at those old William Lane
[01:08:09] Craig debates.
[01:08:10] I mean, the way he would turn
[01:08:13] Hitchens into a pretzel.
[01:08:15] And just so calm and he's like, I know
[01:08:17] exactly what I'm saying and I know
[01:08:19] exactly what you don't know and I'm
[01:08:20] going to show you. Exactly, yeah.
[01:08:22] >> God bless Craig, hey? I mean, Mhm. I
[01:08:24] know it's like a human thing to
[01:08:28] follow someone for a while until you
[01:08:29] kind of get over them and then you start
[01:08:30] getting critical of them, but he did so
[01:08:32] much for Christian apologetics.
[01:08:33] >> Oh, absolutely.
[01:08:33] >> So all of us guys were were listening to
[01:08:36] him. He showed us that he you can
[01:08:38] actually do this and do it well. You can
[01:08:40] get up there and do those debates and
[01:08:41] you can stand against these new atheists
[01:08:43] and you can we can take them down and
[01:08:45] then we've sort of carried that same
[01:08:47] confidence over into the Islamic
[01:08:49] apologetic battle. And so he sort of
[01:08:51] like he set the he gave us the road map
[01:08:53] to follow.
[01:08:55] Yeah, well, let's let's talk about
[01:08:56] atheism for a little bit since this is
[01:08:58] kind of how you cut your teeth as an
[01:08:59] apologist. Were you an atheist growing
[01:09:01] up? No, I I through a period where I was
[01:09:03] kind of like a deist, maybe. Yeah. But,
[01:09:05] I mean, like atheism never made sense to
[01:09:07] me. There's got to be a creator, I
[01:09:09] guess.
[01:09:11] It's weird, isn't it, how public opinion
[01:09:13] influences people? And by people, I
[01:09:15] mean, me.
[01:09:16] Um
[01:09:17] you just think of the different waves of
[01:09:21] isms that roll through culture and make
[01:09:24] them seem maybe okay.
[01:09:27] You know how they say people usually
[01:09:28] vote the way their neighbors vote? Mhm.
[01:09:30] I mean, you see why that's the case. I
[01:09:31] mean,
[01:09:32] gay marriage thing, the LGBTQ stuff.
[01:09:35] Like, right now, for many people, they
[01:09:37] go, "Whoa, that seems insane." Or like,
[01:09:39] "Whoa, two dudes getting married? How is
[01:09:42] that ever a thing?" Right. But, if you
[01:09:44] lived during those decisions, man, the
[01:09:47] pressure was so strong. I remember
[01:09:49] seeing adverts like, "Don't be on the
[01:09:51] wrong side of history." Like, I don't
[01:09:52] want to be. I I don't want to I want to
[01:09:54] be on the in-crowd, you know?
[01:09:56] And then the new atheism thing. That was
[01:09:58] just so pervasive. I don't know if a lot
[01:10:00] of younger people appreciate how
[01:10:02] pervasive that was. You just felt like
[01:10:04] an idiot. Dawkins
[01:10:06] was telling us outright that we were
[01:10:07] abusing our children if we taught them
[01:10:11] about Christianity. Oh. And who the hell
[01:10:13] wants to be an abuser of children? And
[01:10:15] and
[01:10:16] again, when that stuff's in the air,
[01:10:19] it can Unless you're intelligent,
[01:10:22] like there are people like I'm sure like
[01:10:24] yourself or other people I've had on the
[01:10:26] show like Dr. Ed Feser, you know, like
[01:10:27] who was a philosopher. So, when like a
[01:10:29] new atheist came in, he's like, he
[01:10:32] actually said that Dawkins wouldn't know
[01:10:34] metaphysics from Metamucil. And he said
[01:10:36] that during the height of it, you know?
[01:10:38] And it's just
[01:10:39] Anyway, it's it's bizarre. But, here's
[01:10:42] my point. It feels like the fog of the
[01:10:45] new atheism has rolled on by. And I'm
[01:10:48] looking around the landscape, and I see,
[01:10:50] you know, thoughtful, intelligent people
[01:10:52] who have what feel like or seem to be
[01:10:55] coherent, compelling, even arguments
[01:10:58] against the existence of God and
[01:11:00] Christianity. But they're not blowhards.
[01:11:03] They see I don't know are they probably
[01:11:05] probably are blowhards out there are
[01:11:06] they I don't know but the popular ones
[01:11:08] seem like they're nuanced and thoughtful
[01:11:10] and careful in a way that the new
[01:11:11] atheists weren't. So is it simply that
[01:11:14] the new atheists overplayed their hand
[01:11:16] and we all eventually saw it or
[01:11:19] if not what is responsible for this
[01:11:21] resurgence of Christianity in the face
[01:11:24] of what seems to be a retreating atheism
[01:11:26] in culture?
[01:11:27] I think it's that they promised
[01:11:29] paradise and delivered nothing.
[01:11:32] I mean they had promised that if we just
[01:11:34] all became atheists we'd enter an age of
[01:11:36] science and reason and leave
[01:11:37] superstition behind and it would all be
[01:11:39] great and wonderful and
[01:11:41] that that doesn't work for humans. They
[01:11:44] they never replaced Christianity
[01:11:47] with anything
[01:11:49] to like build culture to build society
[01:11:51] to build you know groups and friendship
[01:11:54] circles cuz we go to church every week.
[01:11:56] We have the we go to Bible study once a
[01:11:58] week in a lot of churches. You build
[01:12:00] culture. Atheism didn't offer that it
[01:12:02] just it's basically just offered people
[01:12:04] a hammer to walk around and hit everyone
[01:12:06] else's worldview. Which is fun. It could
[01:12:08] be fun for a while but eventually
[01:12:09] >> people did it. Eventually your arm gets
[01:12:11] tired and you're like well now what do I
[01:12:12] do?
[01:12:13] I mean what think about though what
[01:12:14] atheism really offers the the average
[01:12:16] person. If you're a
[01:12:19] academic professor, if you're a media
[01:12:21] spokesperson, if you're the influencer,
[01:12:24] you have purpose and meaning.
[01:12:26] What does the uh the
[01:12:28] the stock boy have in atheism? What is
[01:12:30] Trolling. He gets to go online and say
[01:12:32] snarky things to stupid Christians and
[01:12:35] get thumbs up on his comment. If he gets
[01:12:37] a couple yeah he's lucky. Like what does
[01:12:38] the average Joe get from this? Nothing.
[01:12:40] He gets hedonism. Yeah, there you go. He
[01:12:43] gets that's that's something.
[01:12:44] >> get watch your porn, play your video
[01:12:45] games, get in your fights and then go
[01:12:47] home and die in a couple years. Humans
[01:12:49] were not made to live like that. We get
[01:12:52] really depressed after a while. Sure,
[01:12:53] you can be angry and enjoy the pleasure
[01:12:55] for a little while, but eventually
[01:12:56] you're like, "What's all this for?"
[01:12:59] So, atheism doesn't offer the average
[01:13:00] man anything. Whereas Christianity, you
[01:13:03] know, you tell them that, you know, the
[01:13:04] creator of the universe died for you.
[01:13:06] And he's got a plan for your life. Plan
[01:13:08] for your life. Your suffering means
[01:13:10] something. It's redemptive. It's making
[01:13:12] you a better, deeper human being. Yeah.
[01:13:15] I think all these young
[01:13:16] >> All will be made well. Sorry. I think
[01:13:18] all these young people raised by secular
[01:13:20] parents are asking that. What are we
[01:13:21] here for? And that's why a lot of them
[01:13:23] are gravitating towards Catholicism or
[01:13:25] Orthodoxy or even high church
[01:13:27] Protestants. Shout out to Redeem Zummer.
[01:13:29] Like, you get that kind of stuff.
[01:13:31] Uh so, what I think is hap- And so,
[01:13:33] people are like, these young people are
[01:13:34] like, "I need something firm to hold
[01:13:36] onto." And they're going to the ancient
[01:13:38] traditions of Christianity cuz they want
[01:13:40] something that is real. I think that's
[01:13:43] right. I think that's a good assessment
[01:13:45] of how things are. It nothing was
[01:13:47] ushered in and it was like, "You will be
[01:13:49] more rational. Also, men need tampons in
[01:13:52] certain instances." You're like, "I
[01:13:54] don't know what happened." Or even
[01:13:56] [laughter] some of the new atheists were
[01:13:57] like, "That's not what we meant." Like,
[01:13:59] "You went too far."
[01:14:00] >> funny is
[01:14:02] as as atheism was beginning to morph
[01:14:05] into what
[01:14:06] the dictionary would call a religion.
[01:14:08] Mhm. You know, like, okay, so we have a
[01:14:10] set of beliefs and these set of beliefs
[01:14:12] pertain to things like the afterlife,
[01:14:14] the existence of God, how human beings
[01:14:17] should live, but it's not a religion.
[01:14:18] You're like, okay, but it feels like a
[01:14:20] religion. Like, also, we should meet in
[01:14:22] groups, right? They even had atheist
[01:14:24] church. Do you remember they were trying
[01:14:25] that?
[01:14:25] >> Tried it. Didn't work, yeah. That's
[01:14:27] really funny. And so, what would have
[01:14:29] happened, man? Imagine that. And then
[01:14:30] what happened, I guess, was even though
[01:14:32] they weren't able to usher anything in,
[01:14:34] there was enough of a thing that had to
[01:14:36] ushered in that then started to
[01:14:37] splinter, right? Yeah. Who's that Matt
[01:14:40] Dillahunty who married that dude who
[01:14:41] thought it was a he was a woman or
[01:14:43] something? Oh, yeah, I know, man, yeah.
[01:14:44] He has me blocked now.
[01:14:46] Bless Matt. Gosh, this is why the
[01:14:49] the opinions of the world are sand. They
[01:14:52] are nothing. They are dust. Cuz there
[01:14:55] are There was a time when Matt
[01:14:56] Dillahunty seemed like the smartest guy
[01:14:58] in the room.
[01:14:59] Really? No, I take that back.
[01:15:02] I wouldn't say he's an idiot.
[01:15:04] >> No, he's definitely not an idiot, but
[01:15:05] like he he would swing a punch and you
[01:15:07] you didn't want to get in the way of it.
[01:15:09] But then the more debates he did, the
[01:15:11] more everyone was like, "Hang on, all
[01:15:12] he's saying is I'm not convinced."
[01:15:14] >> Exactly. He sounds aggressive, but And
[01:15:17] when I debated him, you know I responded
[01:15:18] with What did you say when he said
[01:15:20] >> I don't care. That's good.
[01:15:21] >> I don't care if you're convinced. I'm
[01:15:23] right, you know? Oh, I got to watch that
[01:15:24] debate. I forgot that you debated him.
[01:15:26] >> him twice, yeah.
[01:15:27] >> I just remember Andrew Wilson
[01:15:29] Yeah. ripping him, as we say in
[01:15:32] Australia. And you a-hole, that's an
[01:15:33] Australian saying. And Matt
[01:15:35] >> I'd like to apologize to everybody, but
[01:15:37] that is
[01:15:39] >> [laughter]
[01:15:39] >> But I mean Matt Dillahunty, I mean he he
[01:15:42] he rage quitted.
[01:15:43] >> Yeah, and that if he would have just
[01:15:44] stayed there and had a conversation
[01:15:46] 10% of the people that watched that
[01:15:48] would have
[01:15:50] The fact that he rage quit made more
[01:15:51] people watch.
[01:15:52] >> That's right.
[01:15:53] >> He should have just did the
[01:15:55] conversation, dealt with the minor
[01:15:57] backlash from whatever happened in it,
[01:15:59] and then just went on with his life, and
[01:16:00] that would never have blown up. You got
[01:16:02] to be careful with that kind of stuff.
[01:16:04] Cali. Yeah, that's insane.
[01:16:07] But yeah. You [clears throat] ever rage
[01:16:08] quit anything? No, not that I remember.
[01:16:10] >> Have I done that?
[01:16:11] >> [snorts]
[01:16:12] >> I don't know. I would
[01:16:14] It's always better that you sit there,
[01:16:15] go through it, whatever.
[01:16:16] >> open to rage quitting. I just don't know
[01:16:18] if I've done it.
[01:16:19] I may have. I just have I got up and
[01:16:22] left?
[01:16:24] I don't think so. Mhm. But see, I've
[01:16:26] always said from the get-go that I'm not
[01:16:28] good at debates, cuz I'm not smart
[01:16:30] enough to think on my feet.
[01:16:33] That's not a So, I know that sounds
[01:16:35] self-deprecating, and it's not meant to
[01:16:36] be. I don't think I'm stupid. I just I'm
[01:16:38] not good at thinking on my feet, and I'm
[01:16:40] not good in high-pressure,
[01:16:42] high-intensity
[01:16:43] you know? So, I'm happy to have like a
[01:16:45] publicized debate with like Betooji back
[01:16:47] when he was Protestant, right? Because
[01:16:49] like I I trust him and we're actually
[01:16:51] trying but I'm not good at that.
[01:16:53] Mhm. So, anyway, maybe that's why I've
[01:16:55] never stormed off cuz I've never
[01:16:57] been in a situation where I needed it.
[01:16:59] Uh you know, you got to be careful. Like
[01:17:00] don't don't ever do that. You rage quit,
[01:17:02] you're going to make your opponent
[01:17:03] famous. Who is the guy that got so and
[01:17:05] so to rage quit, you know?
[01:17:07] >> Yeah.
[01:17:09] Yeah. I hope someone rage quits debating
[01:17:10] me, but
[01:17:12] Yeah.
[01:17:12] >> [clears throat]
[01:17:13] >> Yeah, well, maybe we could pay him.
[01:17:15] >> [laughter]
[01:17:16] >> Or maybe you'll get an offer from a
[01:17:17] Muslim about how to Yeah. if you rage
[01:17:20] quit. Yeah. Oh, I thought of a a Muslim
[01:17:22] that I I I think the the best Muslim
[01:17:24] debater I had was a guy named Suleman
[01:17:25] Ahkmed. He's quick on his feet. I'll
[01:17:27] give him that. He didn't know what a
[01:17:29] genetic fallacy was. So, his in his
[01:17:31] informa- He said Iran is not executing
[01:17:33] people that apostasize from Islam. So,
[01:17:36] not a not the brightest guy, but
[01:17:37] definitely quick on his feet,
[01:17:39] rhetorical.
[01:17:40] >> It's some good rhetorical skills, but
[01:17:41] yeah. Yeah.
[01:17:43] I mean, what do you what's your opinion
[01:17:44] of the state of modern debates? Because
[01:17:47] it's almost like
[01:17:50] I don't know. I I feel like a lot of
[01:17:51] debates that take place. I'm not saying
[01:17:53] there's no value to the whatever podcast
[01:17:55] debates, but a lot of those things just
[01:17:57] feel like train wrecks on purpose.
[01:17:59] >> They are to be, yeah.
[01:18:00] >> Right, they're on purpose. Like let's
[01:18:01] make this the most disgusting
[01:18:04] down in the dirt, down in the mud uh
[01:18:06] debate we can cuz that's what people
[01:18:08] want. Like they don't want the old
[01:18:09] William Lane Craig debates where
[01:18:10] everyone had a lot of time and could
[01:18:12] have the time to lay out their position,
[01:18:14] you know? Well, here's my here's my
[01:18:15] take. I think they've become
[01:18:16] performative performative in a lot of
[01:18:18] ways.
[01:18:19] Like people like who just sort of go to
[01:18:21] root for their own team. Yeah. And
[01:18:22] you're like, oh, that's not what a
[01:18:23] debate is for. But on the flip side,
[01:18:25] Okay, yeah. In in defense of dirty
[01:18:27] debates,
[01:18:28] >> Listen, people need
[01:18:30] perform- performances. If they're not
[01:18:32] going to watch a debate, they're going
[01:18:34] to go watch a football football match.
[01:18:36] They're going to go watch
[01:18:37] hockey.
[01:18:39] So, if they're watching me debate
[01:18:40] someone and it's performative in some
[01:18:42] way, at least they might be learning
[01:18:43] something in the process.
[01:18:45] >> this stoic demeanor where like that
[01:18:48] fellow you debated who sounded like a
[01:18:49] prosperity preacher who was Muslim.
[01:18:51] Assam Shibli.
[01:18:51] >> Who I honestly think advice to him if
[01:18:54] he's willing to take it, you seem like a
[01:18:56] nice person but the way you speak it's
[01:18:58] like it's too performative. He would
[01:18:59] just speak normally. I think you seem
[01:19:02] great cuz there was a few times he would
[01:19:03] speak normally. I thought he sounds like
[01:19:05] a lovely fellow like I'd listen to him.
[01:19:07] But when he would talk like this, I'm
[01:19:09] like what are you doing? Anyway, you've
[01:19:11] got like this death stare like this
[01:19:13] death psychotic no offense to David Wood
[01:19:15] stare at your opponent where
[01:19:18] I wouldn't debate you about my middle
[01:19:20] name, dude.
[01:19:21] >> [laughter]
[01:19:21] >> Yeah. It's my poker face, I guess. I
[01:19:24] don't know. Do you ever get rattled
[01:19:26] before or during a debate? I don't I
[01:19:29] don't know. I'm trying to think. I mean,
[01:19:30] I've done so many debates.
[01:19:33] I mean, when I was debating Daniel
[01:19:34] Haqiqatjou on child marriage, I was
[01:19:36] trying so hard not to lose my cool
[01:19:38] because I study my opponents before I
[01:19:40] debate them.
[01:19:41] >> Yeah. Figure out what makes them tick.
[01:19:42] >> Oh, yeah.
[01:19:43] >> And I studied Daniel and he likes to set
[01:19:45] people off. He likes to cuz he uses and
[01:19:47] he's really good at using it against his
[01:19:49] opponent. So, I was like, I got to be
[01:19:51] stoic poker face the whole time. Yeah.
[01:19:53] >> to try to set me off.
[01:19:55] >> hard when you're trying to tell someone
[01:19:56] not to children.
[01:19:57] >> And he's during the debate, I got him to
[01:19:59] admit that in Islam it would be okay to
[01:20:01] have sex with a
[01:20:03] three-year-old and then a girl as young
[01:20:05] as 11 months in Islam. And then he also
[01:20:08] admitted that yes, in Islam it'd be
[01:20:10] perfectly fine for him to take a
[01:20:12] seven-year-old as a sex slave.
[01:20:15] So, and I'm like hearing all this and
[01:20:17] I'm like, how do I not jump over and
[01:20:19] choke the guy?
[01:20:20] >> [laughter]
[01:20:20] >> Like
[01:20:22] and I just kept thinking, oh judgment
[01:20:23] day is coming. I uh That's when you pull
[01:20:25] a trendoidy. I will box you. And maybe
[01:20:28] in that situation it's okay.
[01:20:29] >> Maybe. [laughter] I that I I'm I would
[01:20:31] allow that, but I'm just thinking like
[01:20:34] God, I hope he converts to Christianity
[01:20:35] and repents of this or judgement day I
[01:20:38] will be there. I'm just because He's a
[01:20:40] white fella. Is he another one of these
[01:20:41] white guys?
[01:20:43] >> Oh, okay. Yeah. But is he American? He
[01:20:45] was raised in America, yeah. Was he
[01:20:46] raised Muslim though? That's my point.
[01:20:48] >> says he was raised like secular Shia if
[01:20:50] I remember. Then he converted like
[01:20:51] hardcore traditional Sunni.
[01:20:54] You know, but I mean like it's it's evil
[01:20:56] no matter what. I mean
[01:20:58] Mhm. You know, it's It Islam is just not
[01:21:01] a religion compatible with the West.
[01:21:03] They are coming
[01:21:05] here to conquer, to spread their world,
[01:21:07] and if they take over, you would see
[01:21:08] things like child marriage. You'd see
[01:21:10] things like polygamy. I would I even
[01:21:12] will go so far as to say you'd see some
[01:21:13] form of slavery come back. They won't
[01:21:15] call it slavery, but it would be.
[01:21:17] >> you what's funny, if secularism takes
[01:21:19] over, I think you'll see the same thing.
[01:21:21] That's because secularism can't doesn't
[01:21:23] have the birth rates.
[01:21:25] To like that would say if when people
[01:21:27] become secular, they have almost no
[01:21:28] children. So they don't pass on their
[01:21:30] culture to anybody. This is the biggest
[01:21:32] problem with secularism. It It does
[01:21:34] that.
[01:21:35] The good news is is that No, but I mean
[01:21:37] what you would see like if if hedonistic
[01:21:39] secularism takes over, which it seems to
[01:21:42] be doing a good job of,
[01:21:44] I think you'd see pedophilia
[01:21:45] mainstreamed. Oh, yeah. For sure you
[01:21:47] would.
[01:21:48] For sure. Yeah, also perversions. I
[01:21:50] think you'd see some secularists push
[01:21:52] back because Christianity, the way we is
[01:21:54] so imbued in the way people think Yeah.
[01:21:56] that even there's many secularists that
[01:21:57] are like no, none of that. Mhm. But
[01:22:00] that's but
[01:22:01] just to be a little optimistic Okay.
[01:22:03] Let's give it a shot. Go on. Think about
[01:22:05] that though, that even the secularists
[01:22:07] can't get away from their the their
[01:22:09] Christian ethics in the way they think.
[01:22:11] This is
[01:22:12] This is what I I just I just think
[01:22:13] Christianity's going to keep growing.
[01:22:15] Yeah, we have setbacks. We go through
[01:22:17] like these cycles where we have a little
[01:22:19] setback, but then we grow. We have
[01:22:20] revivals. We have these great
[01:22:21] awakenings. I think you know, we're just
[01:22:24] going through one of those cycles again.
[01:22:25] I think God knows what he's doing. So,
[01:22:28] you know, I I'm a little optimistic. I
[01:22:29] >> Good. That's nice. I needed a bit of
[01:22:31] that. I I I'm optimistic as long as we
[01:22:33] do our work. Yeah. You know, I remember
[01:22:35] in go to Acts, Paul on the ship, the
[01:22:37] angel shows up and says
[01:22:39] everyone's going to live.
[01:22:41] Did Paul sit back and go, "Great"? No,
[01:22:43] he went up and told the ship captain
[01:22:45] when people were trying to get over the
[01:22:46] side, he's like, "Unless those people
[01:22:47] stay in the boat, you know,
[01:22:50] you will not live." So, he go He knows
[01:22:52] he's going to He knows he's going to get
[01:22:53] through it all, but he still goes out
[01:22:55] and acts and does what he his part to
[01:22:57] get through it all. We just got to do
[01:22:58] that. So, I'm optimistic,
[01:23:00] but we still got to get our hands dirty.
[01:23:01] Get Get to work.
[01:23:02] All right. Talk to me about the state of
[01:23:04] atheistic apologetics and the apparent
[01:23:06] Christian revival that we may
[01:23:09] be seeing or may wish to be seeing. I
[01:23:10] can't tell. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot
[01:23:13] of atheists have sort of given up on
[01:23:15] that. They realized that they can't
[01:23:16] build a culture
[01:23:18] that can compete with Christianity.
[01:23:21] Uh I had a guy on my my YouTube channel
[01:23:23] about a uh year I can't remember his
[01:23:24] name. He's He's Jewish, atheist, and
[01:23:27] gay.
[01:23:29] Okay.
[01:23:29] >> And he works for the Brookings
[01:23:30] Institute. Trying to remember his name.
[01:23:31] He wrote a book.
[01:23:33] Uh it's it's um
[01:23:35] He wrote a really good book where he
[01:23:36] just said, "Look, listen. We need a
[01:23:38] Christian culture."
[01:23:39] Yeah. We we
[01:23:40] >> Even Dawkins came out and said something
[01:23:41] like that, didn't he? He's culturally
[01:23:43] Christian.
[01:23:43] >> Yeah, we we need we need more Christians
[01:23:45] >> Right. As he got it out and then turned
[01:23:47] around and went, "No, but I actually
[01:23:48] like the culture. I don't like what's
[01:23:49] happening now." Like, "Well, thanks,
[01:23:50] dude, cuz you're kind of responsible for
[01:23:52] what happened."
[01:23:53] >> Yeah. The book The name of his book was
[01:23:54] Cross Purposes. Okay. I can't remember
[01:23:56] his name. I feel apologize, but he was
[01:23:58] super nice, super great guy. But, he's
[01:24:00] basically saying I've I've thrown the
[01:24:01] towel in on a secular culture. We can't
[01:24:03] build it. We need Christians to be
[01:24:05] actual Christians and build a good
[01:24:07] culture because they gave us the West,
[01:24:09] they gave us the United States, and I
[01:24:11] don't want to see this go away.
[01:24:12] This is a gay Jewish atheist saying this
[01:24:15] stuff. That should make you So, I think
[01:24:17] that's happened to a lot of the
[01:24:18] atheists. They sort of realized, "All
[01:24:20] right. We were kind of bringing in too
[01:24:22] many Muslims. We don't want any We don't
[01:24:24] want Sharia law. It was kind of good
[01:24:26] with what Christianity gave us. We want
[01:24:28] this. So, they've kind of backed down
[01:24:31] and a lot of young people are seeing
[01:24:33] that and they're going to church.
[01:24:35] When I was in Nashville last, Apostate
[01:24:37] Prophet took me to a church with him,
[01:24:39] the Greek Orthodox Church. Great time.
[01:24:41] I love going to those churches.
[01:24:44] I can either confirm or deny if I go to
[01:24:46] them regularly, if you know what I mean.
[01:24:49] I was just so happy to see so many young
[01:24:51] men there. I mean, there were entire
[01:24:52] pews with just young men there.
[01:24:55] I I you know, I am hoping the young
[01:24:57] women show up first. Maybe it's a Maybe
[01:24:59] God's repeating a cycle. Adam was formed
[01:25:01] first, then Eve. So, hopefully the women
[01:25:03] come in soon.
[01:25:05] Because I just like I think a lot of
[01:25:07] these young people are like they've
[01:25:08] grown up with secular parents, they've
[01:25:10] grown up in a secular culture and
[01:25:11] they're like
[01:25:12] what is all this for?
[01:25:14] Atheism offers us nothing. This can't
[01:25:16] all be all it is. I'm
[01:25:17] I just can't live as this guy that works
[01:25:19] at McDonald's or this guy that works at
[01:25:22] Chick-fil-A or something. I There's got
[01:25:24] to be more and Christianity actually
[01:25:25] does that. Gives you a reason to live
[01:25:27] and a reason to build a better world.
[01:25:30] You know, I mean, like some historians
[01:25:31] of science will talk about how
[01:25:32] Christianity really gave us a culture of
[01:25:35] progress.
[01:25:36] You know, the ancients
[01:25:38] they looked at
[01:25:39] time backwards. So, like we say the
[01:25:42] future is before us.
[01:25:44] The ancients said the opposite. They
[01:25:45] said the past is before us.
[01:25:47] They would say that kind of stuff
[01:25:48] because to them the past you can
[01:25:50] actually see the past. You can't see the
[01:25:52] future. Right. But when Christianity
[01:25:54] comes on the scene, it gives us a
[01:25:55] culture of progress. Jesus is going to
[01:25:57] come back. We're marching towards that.
[01:25:59] Let's build a better world until he gets
[01:26:01] here kind of thing.
[01:26:02] And so, really the way it's it's hard to
[01:26:06] think about, but take take a look at a
[01:26:07] book by like Sacha Stern called Time and
[01:26:09] Process in Ancient Judaism. I did a
[01:26:11] video on it a while back. But, yeah, the
[01:26:13] way they thought about time was so
[01:26:15] different than the way we think about
[01:26:16] time. We're all excited about the
[01:26:17] future. We're marching forward. The
[01:26:19] ancients were like,
[01:26:20] "We're moving further away from the
[01:26:22] ideal past and our great kings. It's
[01:26:24] just going to get worse."
[01:26:26] So, I mean like the way we think even
[01:26:28] about time comes from our Christian our
[01:26:30] Christian background. Mhm.
[01:26:32] Uh what do you think of the resurrection
[01:26:35] of Jesus Christ being an argument for
[01:26:37] the existence of God and Christianity?
[01:26:40] Yeah.
[01:26:40] >> Think it's strong enough or do you think
[01:26:41] Christians just wish it was that strong?
[01:26:43] >> It's absolutely strong. It's It's very
[01:26:45] Here Here's the way I sort of present
[01:26:47] it.
[01:26:47] >> Please, yeah. So, the way historians
[01:26:49] wrestle about this is a huge conundrum
[01:26:51] of history.
[01:26:52] Some Jesus was crucified in 33 AD.
[01:26:55] Couple months later his followers are
[01:26:57] proclaiming he rose from the dead.
[01:26:59] This proves he's the Messiah. It proves
[01:27:01] he's the son of God.
[01:27:03] How do you get there? This is what
[01:27:05] secular non-Christian historians wrestle
[01:27:07] with. How do you go from a guy being
[01:27:09] crucified
[01:27:10] to his followers proclaiming he's a
[01:27:12] Messiah and even skeptics converting
[01:27:14] like Paul and James? They scratch their
[01:27:17] heads and like, "W- Okay." They come up
[01:27:18] with these really convoluted theories to
[01:27:21] explain all the data.
[01:27:22] And uh when you go through all the data,
[01:27:24] the best explanation of all the
[01:27:26] available data is that Jesus rose from
[01:27:27] the dead.
[01:27:29] So, think about it. So, the disciples
[01:27:30] were proclaiming he rose from the dead.
[01:27:32] Our earliest reports like the creed of 1
[01:27:34] Corinthians 15 say Jesus appeared to
[01:27:36] multiple people
[01:27:37] including groups. He appeared to Paul
[01:27:40] who was a skeptic. He appeared to James
[01:27:42] who was a skeptic, not a believer during
[01:27:43] Jesus's life.
[01:27:45] So, you have Jesus appearing to groups.
[01:27:48] Okay? Like the disciples. Okay? Well,
[01:27:49] group hallucinations don't happen.
[01:27:51] Even Paula Fredrickson will be like,
[01:27:52] "They must have seen something, but I'm
[01:27:54] not going to say what it was, but they
[01:27:55] saw something that convinced them Jesus
[01:27:57] rose." This is a non-Christian saying
[01:27:59] this.
[01:28:00] So, She's a Jew, isn't she? Paula? You
[01:28:03] said
[01:28:03] >> Yeah, she's a Jewish convert, yeah. But
[01:28:04] to Christianity? No, to um to Judaism,
[01:28:07] yeah. Uh but then even like, you know,
[01:28:09] in like atheists like Gerd Lüdemann will
[01:28:10] say, "This creed was formulated within 2
[01:28:13] years of the crucifixion."
[01:28:15] So, very early on they believed Jesus
[01:28:17] physically rose.
[01:28:18] Then you have to deal with the fact that
[01:28:19] the tomb was discovered by women.
[01:28:21] Okay, 3 days later.
[01:28:24] Okay, in the ancient world they would
[01:28:25] never make up a story like that because
[01:28:27] no one believed the testimony of women.
[01:28:29] They were very sexist, unlike today, you
[01:28:31] know, in comparison.
[01:28:33] I mean, people think we're sexist. Go
[01:28:35] back to the ancient world, it's thousand
[01:28:36] times, you know. So, but so you're you
[01:28:39] have this story in all four Gospels that
[01:28:40] women discovered this empty tomb 3 days
[01:28:42] later. Yeah. You would never make up a
[01:28:44] story like that.
[01:28:45] >> You'd have Peter and Paul, maybe or
[01:28:46] Peter rather than Paul yet, but Yeah,
[01:28:48] well, that's what we see in later
[01:28:49] apocryphal Gospels like the the Gospel
[01:28:51] of Peter. It's like everyone's there to
[01:28:53] see it.
[01:28:53] >> Yeah. Uh so, you have that kind of
[01:28:55] stuff. Then you have can you have
[01:28:56] skeptics converting like if you would
[01:28:58] like well, they they hallucinated Jesus
[01:29:01] because they were grieving him. Well,
[01:29:03] Paul wasn't. What was going on with him?
[01:29:05] Yeah. You know, so start to Here's the
[01:29:07] thing. You when you bring all this data
[01:29:09] up to skeptics,
[01:29:11] they are very they get very magical in
[01:29:13] how they come up with well, maybe this
[01:29:14] happened to Paul or maybe this happened
[01:29:16] to the disciples or maybe they invented
[01:29:18] the story of the women discovering the
[01:29:20] empty tomb this way or that way or
[01:29:21] something.
[01:29:23] You make a theory that is so ad hoc it
[01:29:25] it's it is itself a miracle. You're
[01:29:27] positing group hallucinations,
[01:29:29] hallucinations that convince skeptics.
[01:29:31] And by the way, when people have
[01:29:32] hallucinations,
[01:29:33] like if a dead one who died, they don't
[01:29:35] think, "Oh, he rose from the dead." They
[01:29:37] think, "His spirit came in the room and
[01:29:39] I felt his presence and he's in heaven."
[01:29:41] That kind of thing. You don't think he
[01:29:42] physically got out of the grave.
[01:29:44] So, they'd have experiences so vivid, so
[01:29:47] real, they were convinced a body rose
[01:29:50] from the grave. Okay, that doesn't
[01:29:52] happen from hallucinations.
[01:29:55] So, that also happened to skeptics, that
[01:29:57] happened to groups. Yeah. Then you have
[01:30:00] other aspects like
[01:30:01] no Jew at the time was expecting a
[01:30:03] Messiah to rise from the dead. That just
[01:30:06] the the the resurrection was supposed to
[01:30:08] happen at the end of time. The Messiah
[01:30:09] was supposed to be a conquering war
[01:30:11] warlord basically. So, now you have a
[01:30:13] belief the Christian belief which is
[01:30:15] unlike the culture. So, it's not like it
[01:30:16] just came out of that culture. No one
[01:30:18] was saying the Messiah was going to die
[01:30:20] and rise. Like they were expecting it to
[01:30:22] happen.
[01:30:23] So, you have something unlike the
[01:30:25] cultural background, have these weird
[01:30:28] facts you got to explain away. At the
[01:30:29] end of the day, what is the simplest
[01:30:32] explanation? The most parsimonious?
[01:30:34] Jesus rose from the dead.
[01:30:36] Anything you going to compete with that
[01:30:37] is going to itself become a miracle
[01:30:40] because you have to posit all these
[01:30:41] convoluted
[01:30:42] once in a lifetime once in a several
[01:30:45] generation things to happen and they all
[01:30:47] just happen at the right time.
[01:30:49] And that's the difference between
[01:30:50] Christianity and other religions. We
[01:30:51] have the resurrection argument. Again,
[01:30:54] with other religions it's one guy got
[01:30:56] revelations and you just got to trust
[01:30:58] him basically.
[01:30:59] I think what's difficult for the
[01:31:00] Christian is it's a lot easier to tear
[01:31:03] down an argument or pick it apart than
[01:31:05] to build it. It is. I mean, if you were
[01:31:07] to ask me what am I most certain of, you
[01:31:10] know, I might say my own existence or
[01:31:11] something.
[01:31:12] Um and then human nature come along and
[01:31:14] say I can't know the self. Anyway, but
[01:31:16] if I said something else like you know
[01:31:17] like I would say, "Oh, my producer Maria
[01:31:19] exists." That's what I think. Yeah. You
[01:31:22] could pick that apart. You could 100% do
[01:31:25] that, right? Do it. Like she was a
[01:31:27] dream. She was a vision. Or you thought
[01:31:29] you were seeing her or she actually I
[01:31:31] didn't see her. Like why you know, it's
[01:31:33] actually kind of easy to pull apart. I
[01:31:34] think that's part of why it was so
[01:31:36] difficult for Christians to argue with
[01:31:38] atheists is because here we are trying
[01:31:40] to build up this thing and all they got
[01:31:42] to do is go
[01:31:43] It's
[01:31:44] much easier to take a hammer to a statue
[01:31:46] than it is to build the statue. And
[01:31:48] that's all new atheism does. It's just
[01:31:50] they have a hammer and they go around
[01:31:51] smashing everyone else's statue which is
[01:31:53] an analogy for worldview. That's all
[01:31:55] they do. So, I mean yeah, that that's
[01:31:57] the problem. They it's it's hard to
[01:32:00] build up a good worldview like it is to
[01:32:02] make a statue.
[01:32:02] >> Yeah. It's easy to knock something over.
[01:32:05] You just You just sit there and say,
[01:32:07] "I'm a skeptic and I'm not convinced, so
[01:32:08] convince me."
[01:32:09] >> Yes. Yes. Yes.
[01:32:11] >> No. I'm going to And that's why when I
[01:32:12] debate atheists, I'm going to go, "I'm
[01:32:14] going to present the best explanation of
[01:32:15] the data."
[01:32:16] If I'm going to debate God's existence,
[01:32:18] okay.
[01:32:19] What gave rise to the universe? I'm
[01:32:20] going to say the best explanation would
[01:32:22] be a conscious agent. What gave rise to
[01:32:24] objective moral values? The best
[01:32:26] explanation
[01:32:28] is a mind, an objective necessary mind.
[01:32:31] What gave rise to consciousness? I'd say
[01:32:33] it's a necessary source of
[01:32:34] consciousness. I can present all of that
[01:32:37] and say, "Well, look, I I can explain
[01:32:39] all of this data with one explanation,
[01:32:41] God exists."
[01:32:42] Your turn.
[01:32:43] Offer something better. Yeah. If you
[01:32:45] can't, then I have the best explanation,
[01:32:47] and until you offer something better, I
[01:32:49] am justified in believing this as the
[01:32:51] best explanation. You're free to believe
[01:32:53] in whatever you want. You can have your
[01:32:54] faith in whatever. Yeah. I'm going to
[01:32:56] believe in what the evidence is showing
[01:32:58] me. I think this is why there was a
[01:33:00] redefinition of atheism over the last 20
[01:33:02] so years.
[01:33:02] >> Mhm. Um cuz it seems Okay, if you ask
[01:33:05] the question, "Does God exist?" There
[01:33:07] seems to be three basic answers to that
[01:33:08] question. Yes, no, or maybe. Therefore,
[01:33:11] it seems that there it'd be most
[01:33:13] appropriate to have three terms that
[01:33:16] would then be attributed to the
[01:33:18] possessors of each view. You have
[01:33:19] theism,
[01:33:21] atheism, agnosticism.
[01:33:23] Um the agnostic has nothing to defend
[01:33:25] cuz he holds no view. Right.
[01:33:27] >> And that's why in those debates with
[01:33:30] William Lane Craig, to circle back to
[01:33:31] that, um they would get pretty upset
[01:33:34] when he would try to go, "Present
[01:33:35] something. Like, give me your reason for
[01:33:37] thinking God doesn't exist." And they
[01:33:38] would always say the same thing. No, no,
[01:33:40] no, no, no. An atheist isn't someone who
[01:33:42] affirms the nonexistence of God.
[01:33:44] Yeah.
[01:33:45] Yeah, it it's it's But if atheism can
[01:33:48] just mean agnosticism, then it's very
[01:33:50] easy to win cuz you get to smash down
[01:33:52] things and have nothing to defend.
[01:33:54] Right. And I always say
[01:33:55] >> Yeah. I I give an analogy sometimes.
[01:33:57] Like, okay, so if if my arguments for
[01:33:59] God's existence are like a boat that
[01:34:00] will get get us across the river. Like,
[01:34:02] let's get in the boat. All the atheists
[01:34:04] is doing is saying, "Well, there's a
[01:34:05] hole there. I don't trust that one plank
[01:34:07] of wood." And I'm like, "Oh, do you have
[01:34:09] a better option?"
[01:34:10] Oh, no, you don't. Great. I'm going to
[01:34:12] get in my boat. Until you come up with a
[01:34:13] better option, this is the option I'm
[01:34:14] taking. Sure, it's not the it's not
[01:34:17] perfect. I don't have the best arguments
[01:34:19] ever. I'm sure, you know, That's good,
[01:34:22] yeah.
[01:34:22] >> So, but I mean, it's still the best
[01:34:23] explanation right now. I do the same
[01:34:25] thing with like
[01:34:26] you quantum mechanics. What do you have
[01:34:28] to replace quantum mechanics with? Oh,
[01:34:30] you don't have a better explanation?
[01:34:31] Well, that's why the scientific
[01:34:32] community believes in quantum mechanics.
[01:34:34] The same applies to God's existence. All
[01:34:36] the data points to God existing. You've
[01:34:38] not replaced all of this data with a
[01:34:40] better explanation that it can account
[01:34:42] for all of it. Consciousness, morality,
[01:34:44] fine-tuning, the contingency of the
[01:34:46] universe. All of that can be explained
[01:34:48] with one thing, God.
[01:34:50] Yeah, and then
[01:34:52] the genetic fallacy, right?
[01:34:54] Uh can can often be applied to people
[01:34:56] like us.
[01:34:57] Um but there is something to be said
[01:35:00] about, "Well, my choices are
[01:35:04] there being a world that has meaning and
[01:35:06] life after death and purpose
[01:35:09] or none of that.
[01:35:11] So, yeah. Like, I'll I'll bite the
[01:35:13] bullet and admit that I am I would like
[01:35:15] to I would like to think that my life
[01:35:17] has purpose and that there is something
[01:35:18] good awaiting me after death. So, yes,
[01:35:20] you're right. Congratulations. That is
[01:35:22] part of the what I'm factoring in here.
[01:35:24] But again, there's still this plank and
[01:35:25] even if it's not perfect, it's
[01:35:26] something. So, why would I
[01:35:29] What are you asking me to do? Exactly.
[01:35:32] You ask just Just just believe uh just
[01:35:34] uh believe in nothing, give up, and just
[01:35:36] live a hedonistic life for another 30
[01:35:38] years. I mean, like But then again,
[01:35:40] there's Did you as you know, the genetic
[01:35:42] fallacy cuts both ways. It's like,
[01:35:43] "Well, I can come up with the reasons
[01:35:44] why you want to believe that." Well,
[01:35:46] yeah, of course you can. I absolutely. I
[01:35:47] mean, it's it's as John Milton said when
[01:35:49] he puts these words in the Satan's
[01:35:51] mouth, it's better to reign in hell than
[01:35:53] serve in heaven. Some people actually
[01:35:55] think that way. Sure, I don't have to
[01:35:57] Sure, there's no meaning in
[01:36:00] purpose in my worldview, but at least I
[01:36:02] get to reign there in this chaos of
[01:36:05] misery.
[01:36:06] versus serving your God in your
[01:36:08] worldview. It's wow, that sounds
[01:36:11] miserable, but that's the way some
[01:36:13] people think. They'd rather die on their
[01:36:14] empire of dirt
[01:36:16] than ever bow the knee to Jesus.
[01:36:19] What would your advice be to someone who
[01:36:20] says, "Listen, Mike, I really want to
[01:36:23] believe in God, but I'm looking at the
[01:36:24] arguments for and against and for the
[01:36:26] life of me, I can't decide and I feel
[01:36:28] paralyzed.
[01:36:29] And I also think that whatever
[01:36:31] conclusion I might arrive at,
[01:36:34] there's someone out there who could
[01:36:35] argue me under the table, so I don't
[01:36:37] feel safe
[01:36:39] to actually commit to anything.
[01:36:41] But I want to Believe me, I want to, but
[01:36:43] I just I can't. So, I've got God up on
[01:36:45] the chalkboard and he's been there for
[01:36:47] years. What do I do?
[01:36:50] Yeah, so I did I talked about this in a
[01:36:51] video I did on secularism a while back.
[01:36:54] I said, "First thing you should do is go
[01:36:55] to church. Just just start going.
[01:36:58] Listen, you don't have You don't make
[01:36:59] yourself perfect and then go to church.
[01:37:02] That's That's the exact opposite of what
[01:37:04] we're called to do in Christianity.
[01:37:05] Like just start going. Like
[01:37:08] Remember Remember Remember the man that
[01:37:09] brought his son to Jesus that needed
[01:37:12] that was demon-possessed and he said,
[01:37:13] "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief."
[01:37:15] That sounds exactly like these people. I
[01:37:16] want to believe, but I can't. Okay, then
[01:37:19] just go. We're We're saved by grace
[01:37:21] through faith. Is the point in saying
[01:37:23] that that like Okay, if God doesn't
[01:37:25] exist, you can still come. Yeah, like
[01:37:27] >> We'd love to have you. Do you think
[01:37:28] Jesus is going to like reject someone
[01:37:29] because they're down here and they're
[01:37:30] saying like I believe I really want to
[01:37:32] You believe you exist, but I can't.
[01:37:34] Okay. Just start going through the
[01:37:36] motions then. But what if I'm wrong,
[01:37:38] they'll say. Okay, then then then
[01:37:39] [clears throat] then you die and you rot
[01:37:41] in the grave because there is no God.
[01:37:43] I mean like
[01:37:45] Do you really want to live
[01:37:46] your life by the motto, "What if I'm
[01:37:48] wrong?" and never actually believe in
[01:37:50] anything? Do you want to live like a
[01:37:52] scaredy-cat? Cuz that's what that is.
[01:37:54] You're going to live like a paranoid
[01:37:56] cat. Afraid to go here, afraid to go
[01:37:57] there. Eventually, sometimes you just
[01:37:59] got to go into the nice old lady's house
[01:38:02] and go, "Actually, the cushions are kind
[01:38:03] of nice in here." That's what it's like
[01:38:05] coming into Christianity. You can either
[01:38:07] live in constant fear and worry and
[01:38:09] anxiety, or you can go, "Okay, I will
[01:38:10] try this and I will see if I find
[01:38:13] community, if I find something here, if
[01:38:15] I find hope, purpose, and meaning."
[01:38:17] So, just start going to church.
[01:38:19] Give your life to Christ, even if you
[01:38:20] don't know he exists. Just do it. Like,
[01:38:23] what is holding you back? Absolute
[01:38:25] certainty? You're never going to have
[01:38:26] that anyway.
[01:38:27] So, you're not We're not asking you to
[01:38:29] give anything up. We're We're
[01:38:31] We're offering you eternity if if this
[01:38:32] turns out to be right.
[01:38:34] That's just
[01:38:35] uh you know, a layman's understanding of
[01:38:37] Pascal's Wager. Yeah, that's right. And
[01:38:38] then but someone will say, "But I'm
[01:38:40] afraid of being a hypocrite."
[01:38:42] How are you a hypocrite? Like
[01:38:44] >> Well, I'm afraid of saying I believe
[01:38:46] something I don't believe.
[01:38:48] Um
[01:38:49] and I'm afraid of being mercenary. Like,
[01:38:51] I'm afraid of only believing in Jesus so
[01:38:53] I escape hell. That doesn't seem like a
[01:38:54] very righteous, virtuous thing to do.
[01:38:56] And I I So, I wouldn't commit to it
[01:38:58] until I can be quite convinced.
[01:38:59] >> Well, I mean, you're not actually saying
[01:39:01] that. You're not saying I'm doing this
[01:39:02] cuz I'm afraid of hell. You're saying
[01:39:04] you want this to be the worldview that
[01:39:06] is true. You're saying this is what I
[01:39:07] really do want. So, I would like this to
[01:39:11] be better. What's wrong with that? Like,
[01:39:14] you're not No one's asking you to lie.
[01:39:16] No one's saying come to Christianity and
[01:39:17] also say, "Yes, you
[01:39:19] completely believe God exists." If
[01:39:21] you're still stuck in that that
[01:39:22] mentality, just come anyway. Like, you
[01:39:25] really think Jesus is going to reject
[01:39:27] somebody who says, "I can't believe in
[01:39:29] God. I wish God exists, but God, if
[01:39:31] you're out there, please save me. Please
[01:39:34] be who you say you are in the gospel."
[01:39:37] No, I don't think he's
[01:39:39] I don't think God is going to reject
[01:39:40] anyone in that situation. As again, then
[01:39:43] what did the man say that came to Jesus?
[01:39:44] Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. I
[01:39:46] think if atheists prayed that, Lord, I
[01:39:48] believe, help my unbelief, and they
[01:39:50] started going to church, they got
[01:39:52] baptized, they they started partaking of
[01:39:55] the Eucharist, I think they're in. We're
[01:39:58] not saved by our own works. We're saved
[01:40:00] by what he did for us.
[01:40:02] And I think we need to remember that.
[01:40:03] So, he's going to bring anyone he wants
[01:40:05] to the Father.
[01:40:07] So, if you want to be one of those
[01:40:08] people, just be there. And then yeah,
[01:40:10] you may not believe right away, but
[01:40:12] Jesus is not going to condemn you
[01:40:13] because you didn't have the right
[01:40:15] theology. Could you imagine if that was
[01:40:16] the case? I'd be buggered. We'd be
[01:40:19] screwed. Everyone would be screwed cuz
[01:40:20] we all have like what variations, you
[01:40:22] know. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to get
[01:40:24] to heaven and Jesus is going to be like,
[01:40:25] well, you know,
[01:40:27] you were Calvinist or you were Arminian.
[01:40:29] >> read this one document from the 14th
[01:40:31] century.
[01:40:32] >> No, you're kind of
[01:40:33] >> language in which it was written. Yeah,
[01:40:35] so if that's the case for us that do
[01:40:36] believe God exists, why can't that be
[01:40:38] this someone for who is an atheist but
[01:40:40] wants to be a Christian?
[01:40:42] Yeah. What do you say about the argument
[01:40:45] uh of, you know, the the non-believer
[01:40:47] who wants to believe in God, but God he
[01:40:50] just can't.
[01:40:51] This I mean, I heard Alex O'Connor talk
[01:40:53] to Father Gregory Pine about this in a a
[01:40:55] recent back and forth. There are
[01:40:57] atheists who claim that they want to
[01:40:59] believe in God, but they just can't. And
[01:41:01] so, this is somehow an argument against
[01:41:03] God's existence because if God does
[01:41:05] exist and wants them to be saved, he
[01:41:08] would need to make his existence plain
[01:41:10] enough to them so that they could go
[01:41:12] ahead and believe. The fact that he
[01:41:14] hasn't done that is an argument from the
[01:41:16] hiddenness of God, which I think would
[01:41:18] be like a subset of the problem of evil.
[01:41:20] Yeah. Feel free to state that better
[01:41:22] than I just did because I think it's
[01:41:23] important that we still man the
[01:41:24] argument.
[01:41:24] >> Yeah, that that's called non-resistant
[01:41:26] non-believers. They say they are
[01:41:28] non-believers, but if they got enough
[01:41:30] evidence, they would believe.
[01:41:32] Uh my first response is
[01:41:34] you You actually know that. People often
[01:41:37] will say, you know, we'll watch a movie
[01:41:39] and they're like, "Psh, if I was in the
[01:41:40] movie, I would do X, Y, and Z and do
[01:41:41] this." You're like, "Well, that's what
[01:41:43] we often do. We're great Monday
[01:41:44] >> Totally. Great Monday
[01:41:46] >> morning quarterback. If I had lived in
[01:41:47] Nazi Germany, I would have resisted
[01:41:49] Hitler. Exactly. We all think that about
[01:41:51] ourselves. And then we get in situations
[01:41:54] like you see young men go off to war and
[01:41:56] they're cowering Yeah. as the bullets
[01:41:58] are flying. And you know, I I get it.
[01:42:00] But stop stop pretending you know your
[01:42:02] entire psychology. Okay.
[01:42:04] >> Like people spend years in therapy
[01:42:06] trying to understand their own
[01:42:07] psychology
[01:42:09] and learning stuff about themselves they
[01:42:10] never knew. You might be surprised. So,
[01:42:13] when people say that, okay, you're
[01:42:15] saying that, but I don't know if that's
[01:42:17] true. I don't even know if you know
[01:42:18] that's true.
[01:42:20] So,
[01:42:21] we got to we got to first think about
[01:42:22] >> Hang on. Okay, let me push back cuz
[01:42:24] can't this be the case? Can't it be true
[01:42:26] that
[01:42:27] say you're God, you want me to believe
[01:42:29] in you,
[01:42:30] then isn't the onus on you to make your
[01:42:33] existence at least obvious to me? Maybe
[01:42:35] I'll reject you. Mhm.
[01:42:37] But if you haven't made it plain to me,
[01:42:39] I don't even have that choice to begin
[01:42:40] with.
[01:42:41] So,
[01:42:43] we have to remember that God's moral
[01:42:44] obligations are going to be different
[01:42:46] for him.
[01:42:47] So, maybe he does know that, but he also
[01:42:51] sees all possible futures. Maybe if he
[01:42:53] knows he gives you some evidence of some
[01:42:54] sort, you're going to reject him, but
[01:42:56] it's also going to make your life worse
[01:42:58] or it's going to make you into a worse
[01:42:59] person. Like let's say there's some
[01:43:01] atheist out there and God
[01:43:03] gives him evidence. And he doesn't
[01:43:05] convert to Christianity. Instead, he use
[01:43:07] he becomes a prosperity preacher and
[01:43:10] does all sorts of horrible things. Well,
[01:43:12] maybe it's better that God doesn't
[01:43:13] actually give evidence to him cuz he's
[01:43:15] not actually going to become a real
[01:43:16] Christian. He's just going to become a
[01:43:17] swindler, a snake oil salesman, and use
[01:43:20] it to take advantage of people. We have
[01:43:22] to remember God is omniscient. He knows
[01:43:23] all these possible futures. He knows
[01:43:25] when it's right to put in evidence.
[01:43:27] Maybe God also knows if I convert that
[01:43:29] guy now,
[01:43:31] he's just going to be a Christian and
[01:43:33] live in France or something. But if I
[01:43:34] wait 14 years, he's going to open a
[01:43:36] orphanage in Africa.
[01:43:38] So God knows all those possible futures.
[01:43:40] He knows what he's doing. He knows
[01:43:42] hey, maybe if I do actually try to
[01:43:44] convert this atheist, it's not actually
[01:43:46] going to convert him, but it is going to
[01:43:47] turn him into some radical, you know,
[01:43:49] prosperity preacher or radical Satanist
[01:43:51] or something bad.
[01:43:53] So, no, the onus
[01:43:55] is this doesn't make God guilty of
[01:43:57] something because again, we don't have
[01:43:59] the knowledge he would have in this kind
[01:44:00] of situation to know that kind of stuff.
[01:44:02] >> under no obligation to make his
[01:44:04] existence apparent to somebody, you're
[01:44:06] saying. Yeah, but I also agree
[01:44:07] >> Overwhelmingly apparent.
[01:44:08] >> Overwhelmingly apparent. I think there's
[01:44:09] plenty of evidence there. I think it's I
[01:44:11] think Pascal said it, there's enough
[01:44:12] evidence there for anybody who wants to
[01:44:14] be convinced and enough that's not going
[01:44:16] to be forced upon us. It is interesting
[01:44:18] when you look in the book of Exodus and
[01:44:19] you've got, you know, the Red Sea
[01:44:20] parting and pillars of fire Well, think
[01:44:23] about that.
[01:44:23] >> and yet people have rejected him, yeah.
[01:44:25] Well, yeah, think about that. I mean,
[01:44:27] like God made himself
[01:44:28] obvious to the Israelites. And what did
[01:44:30] they do? They demanded quail. They
[01:44:32] demanded to go back to Egypt.
[01:44:34] So I mean, we have this idea that
[01:44:36] if they just got more evidence, they'd
[01:44:38] be convinced. But Jesus says in the
[01:44:39] parable of the rich man and Lazarus, no,
[01:44:41] that's not going to work. So here's my
[01:44:43] challenge to those who are watching
[01:44:44] right now, who might be skeptics or
[01:44:45] atheists or just seekers.
[01:44:47] Pray that prayer. Like right now, pause
[01:44:50] this video and pray that prayer and tell
[01:44:51] us that you prayed it in the comments
[01:44:53] section.
[01:44:54] Lord,
[01:44:55] I believe, help my unbelief.
[01:44:57] >> Mhm.
[01:44:57] You know, and what could that mean? That
[01:44:59] means something different to different
[01:45:00] people. It might be
[01:45:02] I believe that there's something,
[01:45:03] but I don't believe that you're it or
[01:45:06] I don't know. I believe that I want to
[01:45:08] believe, but I don't know how to. Right.
[01:45:10] >> Reveal yourself to me in a way that I
[01:45:11] would understand. Pray that prayer.
[01:45:13] Yeah. I prayed that prayer when I was
[01:45:14] 17.
[01:45:15] I came home so happy
[01:45:18] from Rome. I don't know if you know that
[01:45:20] story. I was obnoxiously happy. I became
[01:45:22] one of those people.
[01:45:24] >> [laughter]
[01:45:24] >> Dude, I was so on fire. That's good.
[01:45:26] >> Oh, man. I was so in love with Jesus.
[01:45:28] It's like everything became colorful and
[01:45:30] I didn't understand what was happening.
[01:45:32] And trying to explain that newfound
[01:45:34] faith to my friends was like trying to
[01:45:36] explain color to people who only knew
[01:45:37] black and white. It
[01:45:38] >> Mhm.
[01:45:39] That sounds maybe I don't know how that
[01:45:41] sounds. Maybe that sounds
[01:45:43] like I think I'm better than them or
[01:45:44] something. I hope that's not it. It's
[01:45:45] just that I didn't know how to
[01:45:46] communicate it. I actually came home
[01:45:48] thinking, this is actually my thought
[01:45:50] process. This is bananas. This is how
[01:45:52] real it was to me. I really thought that
[01:45:55] all I would have to say to my friends
[01:45:57] is, "I know I thought it was just a
[01:45:59] story that people invented to be happy
[01:46:01] as well, but it's not." Mhm. I really
[01:46:04] thought it was that apparent to me that
[01:46:05] I thought if I just say that they'll
[01:46:07] come along with me.
[01:46:09] Got a bit of a shock.
[01:46:10] >> [laughter]
[01:46:11] >> Wasn't exactly what happened. Some
[01:46:13] people came along with me, but yeah,
[01:46:15] golly. Mhm. Yeah. It's like it's like
[01:46:18] Plato said, you know, people are in the
[01:46:20] cave looking at the shadows and you've
[01:46:22] come out to the light and it's like,
[01:46:23] "Guys, there's really something out
[01:46:24] there." And Yeah.
[01:46:25] >> no one wants to turn around. Yeah. You
[01:46:27] know, we just got to keep praying. But I
[01:46:29] mean like, you know,
[01:46:31] >> [sighs]
[01:46:32] >> uh
[01:46:33] God knows what he's doing. There's a
[01:46:34] reason he chose Jacob and not Esau. I
[01:46:36] mean, there's a reason that he acted in
[01:46:38] the time that he did. I mean, think
[01:46:40] about when he came in the flesh.
[01:46:43] It's actually the perfect time. 98 I
[01:46:44] think 95 98% of people that have lived
[01:46:46] on this planet have lived after Jesus.
[01:46:50] He came when there was a universal
[01:46:51] language spreading around Rome, Greek uh
[01:46:53] for example. They built roads, easy to
[01:46:56] move from place to place a lot more
[01:46:58] efficiently. Making evangelization more
[01:47:00] possible and easier. It's perfect time
[01:47:02] for the gospel to start. I mean,
[01:47:03] sometimes, you know, it's hard to see
[01:47:05] this stuff
[01:47:07] in the present, but when you we look
[01:47:08] back at the past, we go, "Okay, now I
[01:47:09] just kind of see the plan unfolding. I
[01:47:11] see where it's going." Mhm.
[01:47:15] Well, let's talk about the moral life
[01:47:16] and the and the prayer life. Are you
[01:47:17] able to talk a bit about that? Cuz I
[01:47:19] mean, you you you're quite smart,
[01:47:20] intelligent. You talk abstractly about
[01:47:22] things very convincingly, but how is
[01:47:24] your own Christian journey going?
[01:47:26] >> [laughter]
[01:47:26] >> I mean, I'm kind of
[01:47:28] my brain has always been very
[01:47:29] analytical. Yeah. I don't get too caught
[01:47:31] up in emotions. It's just the way I am,
[01:47:33] I guess. Uh
[01:47:34] my I think I'm pretty emotional.
[01:47:37] I feel like I feel like the Lord speak
[01:47:39] to me and I I I hear him and I'm moved
[01:47:42] by beauty a lot and I cry in prayer and
[01:47:44] things like that. But I also have that
[01:47:45] other side to me, too, like yourself,
[01:47:47] where I get very analytical about
[01:47:48] things.
[01:47:49] >> I was sitting with a lunch with John
[01:47:51] McCrae of What Do You Meme and David
[01:47:53] Wood
[01:47:54] >> Yeah, David
[01:47:55] >> John from What Do You Meme? I mean, he's
[01:47:56] terrific. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. David
[01:47:58] Wood is a is a diagnosed psychopath. So,
[01:48:00] he has like no emotions. He was on my
[01:48:02] show telling me he doesn't know what
[01:48:04] guilt means.
[01:48:05] >> Yeah.
[01:48:05] >> [laughter]
[01:48:06] >> John McCrae looked at me and says,
[01:48:07] "You're like half psychopath."
[01:48:09] >> Yeah, I was going to say.
[01:48:10] >> You're like half.
[01:48:11] >> That's what I meant earlier when I said
[01:48:12] you're staring with that like Yeah. You
[01:48:14] remind me of Trent. You have something
[01:48:16] like that Trent has. There's something
[01:48:18] going on. You're similar to Trent, like
[01:48:20] That's cool. I'll take that as a com No,
[01:48:21] it is a compliment.
[01:48:22] >> Yeah. Cuz Trent in his book answering
[01:48:24] atheism talks about how jealous he has
[01:48:27] been in the past of people who have
[01:48:29] these profound experiences, like these
[01:48:30] profound heart experiences of God. He
[01:48:32] said the closest he's ever had is when
[01:48:34] he was at Gethsemane.
[01:48:36] Uh no, Golgotha, where he put his hand
[01:48:38] on the rock that Christ apparently died
[01:48:40] near or
[01:48:41] he said he had something of an emotional
[01:48:43] experience then, but that's very rare.
[01:48:45] Yeah. Is that like you? I guess so,
[01:48:46] yeah. I The more older I get, the more
[01:48:48] I'm like that. I think maybe when I was
[01:48:49] a teen, I had more emotions, but the
[01:48:51] older I get, the more they just sort of
[01:48:53] fade into the background. I don't know.
[01:48:54] I I think I'm slowly turning into my
[01:48:56] grandpa, who is so
[01:48:59] grumpy all the time. [laughter]
[01:49:01] No, you've been the optimist in this
[01:49:02] conversation, so. Well, I I I'm just
[01:49:05] thinking of the data and the numbers,
[01:49:06] and that keeps me optimistic, which
[01:49:08] sounds Yeah. not true, but I mean, like
[01:49:11] when I can see the numbers on the page,
[01:49:12] I'm like, "Okay, we'll be fine." Yeah.
[01:49:14] You know, but I mean, I'm just I don't
[01:49:16] know. I'm just very analytical. Show me
[01:49:18] the facts and I'll I'll be I'll I'll go
[01:49:19] do it. Like I've changed my views on
[01:49:21] stuff. Yeah? You know.
[01:49:22] >> Like what? Well, I used to hold to the
[01:49:23] that the Exodus happened in the 15th
[01:49:25] century BC and then I released this huge
[01:49:28] documentary on it and then a week later
[01:49:30] I took it down cuz I talked to an
[01:49:31] Egyptologist. He's like, "Actually, he
[01:49:33] convinced me it's 13th century BC."
[01:49:36] That's where the data is. I got to
[01:49:37] follow it. So, I worked for months on
[01:49:39] this documentary, take it down. It's not
[01:49:41] It's not true.
[01:49:43] Pissed off a lot of people. Don't care.
[01:49:45] It's not It's That's That's where the
[01:49:46] facts are and I redid it a year later
[01:49:48] with the 13th century date.
[01:49:49] >> Really? Yeah, I think the last time you
[01:49:51] were on you were about to release it for
[01:49:52] the first time, if memory serves. Maybe.
[01:49:55] Maybe it was I may have been the second
[01:49:56] time. My memory often doesn't serve, so
[01:49:58] sure, maybe it was the second time. So,
[01:49:59] yeah. Yeah, it's uh
[01:50:01] What's going to So, I mean, I've done
[01:50:02] that kind of stuff. I've pulled other
[01:50:04] videos and taken them down because
[01:50:05] someone contacted me and said, "Hey,
[01:50:06] this is wrong. Fix it." Like, "Oh, yeah,
[01:50:08] you're right. I will fix it." What would
[01:50:09] you like to see happen
[01:50:12] um
[01:50:12] in Christian apologetics online?
[01:50:15] More. Uh-huh. More of them. I want so
[01:50:18] many Christian apologists online that
[01:50:20] I'm out of business. Yeah. I think there
[01:50:22] should be so many on there that there's
[01:50:25] just not enough donations to go around
[01:50:27] and I have to retire and stock shelves.
[01:50:29] What would you like to stop seeing among
[01:50:31] Christian apologists online? Fighting
[01:50:33] with each other. Just like, come on. I
[01:50:35] don't care about Protestants versus
[01:50:36] Catholics versus Orthodox versus I mean,
[01:50:38] come on.
[01:50:39] Is your point like Lewis, like have
[01:50:42] those conversations and have them
[01:50:43] vigorously, but realize that you have a
[01:50:45] public platform and everyone's watching
[01:50:47] and you do a disservice, something like
[01:50:48] that?
[01:50:48] >> Exactly. Yeah. Cuz I'm not I don't I'm
[01:50:50] not against
[01:50:51] interfaith back and forth because as a
[01:50:54] Catholic, I want everyone to be
[01:50:55] Catholic, obviously. Mhm. Um and so I
[01:50:57] think there's a place for it, but I
[01:51:00] don't like seeing the nasty stuff.
[01:51:03] You know what I agree. Trent Horn says
[01:51:05] like if St. Paul was around today, he's
[01:51:07] pretty sure that some of these people
[01:51:08] would accuse him of being a
[01:51:10] tone-policing feminist.
[01:51:11] >> [laughter]
[01:51:12] >> Yeah.
[01:51:14] I I people to be yeah, kind kind to each
[01:51:17] other as they Listen, there's a there's
[01:51:18] a time to not be kind, there's a time to
[01:51:20] be kind.
[01:51:21] You got to know how to do it right. A
[01:51:22] lot of people don't unfortunately.
[01:51:25] And but I'm I'm just staying out of a
[01:51:26] lot of that. We have we have a bigger
[01:51:28] fight.
[01:51:29] And if we can get there That's what I'm
[01:51:32] trying to do. Like honestly, I'm trying
[01:51:34] to stay out of the drama.
[01:51:35] The drama keeps trying to get me. I got
[01:51:37] these people coming I had this woman
[01:51:39] recently on Twitter I won't even say her
[01:51:40] name because that's me being out of the
[01:51:41] drama. A while back she's like, why are
[01:51:44] only like 13% of your most recent
[01:51:46] interviews women? What does that say?
[01:51:48] Just asking questions.
[01:51:51] >> [laughter]
[01:51:51] >> Yeah, we did it is ridiculous. We did a
[01:51:53] big like been 2019 a bunch of us
[01:51:55] apologists got together at a house in
[01:51:56] South Carolina to just sort of like
[01:51:59] network and talk and do videos together
[01:52:00] and then people were like, why are there
[01:52:01] no women there? Because it's a house of
[01:52:03] men.
[01:52:04] >> Yes, and also women are baking the
[01:52:05] cookies. So how [laughter] why would you
[01:52:07] expect them to be in two places at once?
[01:52:10] But that's sort of like sarcastic reply.
[01:52:12] On it's unfortunate but it seems like
[01:52:14] the best response at times because I
[01:52:16] know that that question isn't asked in
[01:52:17] good faith. I know I can see that you're
[01:52:19] pretending to ask it in good faith but I
[01:52:21] I don't believe you. No, they're not no.
[01:52:23] They're just trying to stir up stuff but
[01:52:25] I stay out of that. I get attacked by
[01:52:26] other Christians sometimes and my
[01:52:27] response is going to be silence for
[01:52:29] probably nine times out of 10 because I
[01:52:32] have more important work to do.
[01:52:34] I need what I'm trying to build the
[01:52:35] church and it'd be a lot easier if we
[01:52:37] stopped giving each other black eyes
[01:52:39] while we do that.
[01:52:39] >> Yeah. Listen.
[01:52:41] We may not agree, the Catholics will
[01:52:42] fight the Orthodox Orthodox Catholic,
[01:52:44] Protestants will
[01:52:46] fight as well. If we stop that and we
[01:52:47] just focus on getting people in, we will
[01:52:49] do so much better and people will see
[01:52:51] that we're working together, they'll be
[01:52:53] happier, they'll realize there's
[01:52:54] something here.
[01:52:56] Can you just guys can you just stop for
[01:52:58] a minute
[01:52:59] >> Five minutes. work together like you
[01:53:01] know, and then so I want to see more
[01:53:03] Christian apologists online and I want
[01:53:04] to see them working together
[01:53:06] regardless of their background and if we
[01:53:07] do that, some magical things will
[01:53:10] happen. Some great things will happen. I
[01:53:12] was talking to
[01:53:13] Shane Smith recently and he was talking
[01:53:15] about one of the pieces of advice he was
[01:53:17] given as a new comic is like, "Don't
[01:53:19] criticize other comics."
[01:53:21] And you know, there's something to that.
[01:53:23] Like I I think of Jerry Seinfeld whose
[01:53:24] interviews I like to watch. I find him
[01:53:26] really insightful and articulate about
[01:53:28] these.
[01:53:29] And
[01:53:30] I don't ever hear him criticizing other
[01:53:31] comics and um that says a lot.
[01:53:35] Might be cool if we took just a little
[01:53:37] bit out of that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm
[01:53:39] trying right now to promote and build up
[01:53:41] other apologists. Yeah. Who's on the
[01:53:43] rise that you're excited about? Uh
[01:53:45] there's a guy named Fearless Truth. His
[01:53:47] name is Nick. He's an Orthodox
[01:53:49] Christian, super smart. A lot of good
[01:53:50] ex-Muslims. There's a guy There's a
[01:53:52] Turkish ex-Muslim from
[01:53:54] Australia. His name is Enes, e n e s.
[01:53:57] Okay. He's doing some good stuff.
[01:53:59] Ish of Arabia is doing some good stuff.
[01:54:01] >> Great guy. Yeah.
[01:54:02] I mean, there's lots lots of good Tik
[01:54:04] Tok stars growing up. A guy named Coley
[01:54:06] is growing. Uh you got Thea's Brooks as
[01:54:09] well on Tik Tok. So You were telling me
[01:54:11] about a debate between God Logic and
[01:54:12] Jacob Jacob Hansen. You were there. How
[01:54:14] did that go? Man,
[01:54:16] I God Logic is doing some great stuff.
[01:54:18] Yeah. He's He's new to the scene. He's
[01:54:20] growing like crazy. He's already, you
[01:54:22] know, gone viral, but he's one of our
[01:54:23] best debaters, if not our best debater.
[01:54:26] I just he's he's got the rhetorical the
[01:54:29] rhetorical edge on everybody and he
[01:54:31] knows his stuff. The more he does, the
[01:54:32] more he learns. So he's just getting
[01:54:34] really good. All right. I got to watch
[01:54:36] him. You've You've convinced me. You We
[01:54:37] were talking before this show aired,
[01:54:39] right, about watching that interview
[01:54:40] with uh sorry, debate he did with Jacob.
[01:54:42] I've had Jacob on the show. I like
[01:54:43] Jacob. Um
[01:54:45] but who got the better Who won? God
[01:54:47] Logic won.
[01:54:48] But there because God
[01:54:50] Here's the thing.
[01:54:51] >> You're only saying that cuz you're a
[01:54:52] Christian. Listen, I God Logic won
[01:54:54] because A, he stayed on topic. Jacob
[01:54:57] went off and just tried to show the
[01:54:58] Trinity was illogical. That wasn't the
[01:54:59] debate the debate. The debate was does
[01:55:01] the Bible teach the Trinity? Okay? God
[01:55:03] Logic stayed on topic. He got He went on
[01:55:07] rhetoric. I would think that
[01:55:09] is does the Bible teach the Trinity in
[01:55:11] some ways could be more difficult to
[01:55:13] prove than is the
[01:55:15] Trinity logical?
[01:55:17] Not sure. Well, yeah. But God Logic did.
[01:55:19] He got Jacob to admit, "Yeah, there's
[01:55:21] the Bible speaks of one God who's three
[01:55:23] persons." He He did not get Jacob to
[01:55:26] Watch the debate and then watch when he
[01:55:27] does cuz you'll you'll know when it
[01:55:28] happens. God Logic gets up and walks off
[01:55:30] the stage.
[01:55:33] Wow. Now,
[01:55:34] to be fair to Jacob, he didn't mean
[01:55:37] that. But the way it plays out, it
[01:55:39] definitely looks like that cuz that's
[01:55:41] what I mean. God Logic is good with his
[01:55:43] rhetoric. He knows how to get people
[01:55:44] where he wants to get him to say what he
[01:55:46] wants. And then Jacob tried to rescue
[01:55:48] himself after, but it didn't sound well.
[01:55:50] And then he's playing with semantics and
[01:55:52] ambiguity.
[01:55:53] And then again, Jacob just kept trying
[01:55:56] to argue the Trinity was illogical or
[01:55:58] that God Logic
[01:56:00] didn't fully understand what the
[01:56:02] Ecumenical Councils taught, which is
[01:56:04] fair, but that's not the debate. Uh-huh.
[01:56:07] You can You can have those minor punches
[01:56:09] in a debate, but if you don't win the
[01:56:10] topic, I don't care. Yeah.
[01:56:12] And God Logic won the topic. God Logic,
[01:56:15] God bless. And that That's his name of
[01:56:16] his channel. God Logic, yeah. His name
[01:56:18] is Avery. God bless you, Avery, you
[01:56:20] beautiful bugger who I've never met or
[01:56:21] seen, but can't wait to watch your
[01:56:23] debate tonight now that I've been told
[01:56:24] about it.
[01:56:25] >> Mhm. It's It's It's great, yeah. Yeah.
[01:56:29] Good stuff, man.
[01:56:30] >> Yeah, it's a definitely a definitely one
[01:56:32] to watch. I will tell you that.
[01:56:33] >> So, listen, you're prolific in your
[01:56:35] YouTube channel, but have you
[01:56:37] written a book? Man, when I get the
[01:56:39] time, I will. Yeah? I feel like you've
[01:56:41] probably written so many scripts that
[01:56:43] you could have someone throw it together
[01:56:45] in a book. I know. The way The way I
[01:56:46] think of it is like this. It's like I'm
[01:56:48] trying to build the church, trying to
[01:56:50] get more people Christian.
[01:56:51] >> Yeah. I can make a book which maybe a
[01:56:53] thousand people will
[01:56:54] >> point. The book has cred, right? Because
[01:56:58] it just
[01:56:59] >> [laughter]
[01:56:59] >> I don't know. It's got cred, but how do
[01:57:00] I make a video
[01:57:01] >> you can reach more people through a
[01:57:03] video that's well put together. Exactly.
[01:57:05] Do you remember that video that Cameron
[01:57:06] Bettencourt put together? I think it was
[01:57:08] 10 hours of arguments. [laughter]
[01:57:10] Yeah. For God's existence. God bless
[01:57:12] Cameron. What a guy.
[01:57:13] >> Yeah, that's I mean so I'm like yeah,
[01:57:15] I'd like to write a book. It gets you
[01:57:16] gets you cred.
[01:57:17] But at the same time I'm focusing on
[01:57:19] more important things right now than my
[01:57:21] own [clears throat] What are you working
[01:57:22] on now? on legacy. I'm still making
[01:57:25] videos.
[01:57:26] Uh
[01:57:26] I'm going to working on a big long
[01:57:28] series on the resurrection, making some
[01:57:30] more videos debunking Islam. Do you do
[01:57:32] but do you still do debates? You want Oh
[01:57:33] yeah. Dude, come on this show. I'd love
[01:57:35] to host a debate with you if you ever
[01:57:36] wanted. You
[01:57:38] anyone? Yeah, I'll do
[01:57:39] >> Hey, just tell them. Right, tell the
[01:57:41] Muslims. Go. Muslims, come on this show.
[01:57:43] Debate. This is a huge platform. I'm
[01:57:45] going to show up. Ali Dawah. Come on,
[01:57:47] let's do it. Do you prefer
[01:57:48] >> Take with mine. Do you prefer in person
[01:57:50] or virtual?
[01:57:51] >> In person. I will I will prioritize. I
[01:57:53] don't like virtual debates a lot. That's
[01:57:55] because there's a delay and so you're
[01:57:56] always talking over each other more. So
[01:57:58] if if you're going to if I'm going to do
[01:58:00] a debate, I'm in person. If it's
[01:58:01] virtual, I'm like I'm not I'll get to it
[01:58:04] when I get to it. I got other more
[01:58:05] important things to do.
[01:58:08] Yeah, I guess as a listener though,
[01:58:10] right? I like the in
[01:58:14] the in person debate. Do you remember I
[01:58:15] don't know if you saw that debate
[01:58:16] between Trent Horn and Destiny on the
[01:58:18] whatever podcast? That was wild on
[01:58:20] abortion.
[01:58:21] Man, Trent is very good at what he does.
[01:58:24] >> [laughter]
[01:58:26] >> But I like that as a consumer because
[01:58:28] I'm not I'm not getting distracted by
[01:58:30] the laughter and the claps and the
[01:58:32] applause. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I
[01:58:35] There's got to be a way to thread that
[01:58:36] needle where we have you in maybe we
[01:58:38] could make this work. Have you in
[01:58:40] studio. Maybe we could have some people
[01:58:42] around just to have some kind of life to
[01:58:44] it. Or do you think it would be just as
[01:58:45] good as if we had someone at the table
[01:58:47] doing the debate? Like when you say in
[01:58:48] person I guess are you talking about
[01:58:50] just two people at a table or are you
[01:58:51] talking about a crowd as well? I either
[01:58:53] or. It's It's I I I like the crowd, for
[01:58:55] sure. I guess if I had to pick, I'd want
[01:58:57] a crowd.
[01:58:57] >> Dude, let's stop doing it. Yeah.
[01:58:59] >> Maria, I hope you're listening right
[01:59:00] now. I Let's start. Yeah. Let's rent out
[01:59:03] a pub in Nashville. Okay, I'm in. Tell
[01:59:06] I've done debates in pubs. One of my
[01:59:07] famous debates was with a guy named Aron
[01:59:09] Ra, was in a pub in Fort Worth. What
[01:59:12] Yeah, what is that debate
[01:59:14] society called? Cuz it's not I saw that
[01:59:17] one debate you did has like the blue and
[01:59:18] white logo behind and do there's a big
[01:59:20] banner Modern Day Debate. But there's
[01:59:22] one they do in Texas. Yeah, there's like
[01:59:24] the Bible and Beer Con- Yeah, that's the
[01:59:25] one. Yeah, yeah. That looks cool. Yeah,
[01:59:27] that was fun, yeah. Uh so, yeah, I did
[01:59:29] debate in a pub, went really well, and
[01:59:31] that that's a debate where someone
[01:59:32] watched that was an atheist or a
[01:59:34] Christian today. That was their first
[01:59:36] step towards it. So,
[01:59:38] that kind of That's why I'd like doing
[01:59:39] those, you know, cuz you'll hopefully
[01:59:41] get people like that.
[01:59:42] >> We're going to do it. And then, what's
[01:59:43] your suggestion on how to make it
[01:59:46] produce both light and heat? Like, I
[01:59:47] appreciate your point. Like, people want
[01:59:49] performance, and that performance isn't
[01:59:51] bad.
[01:59:52] >> Mhm. No, it's not. But, we want to be
[01:59:53] pre- predominantly light.
[01:59:56] What What's your suggestion on how to
[01:59:57] make that happen?
[01:59:57] >> I mean, it's it's really depends on the
[01:59:59] debaters. You get the right people in
[02:00:01] there. You don't get somebody who's
[02:00:03] going to lose their temper easily. You
[02:00:04] get somebody who knows what they're
[02:00:05] doing. And, you know, I I've done this
[02:00:09] for years. I've tried to become a better
[02:00:11] debater with every debate and try to not
[02:00:13] I never want to be that guy that just
[02:00:15] becomes the 12-year-old that's going to
[02:00:16] rage quit on, you know, playing Halo
[02:00:18] live. So,
[02:00:19] it depends on the people mostly. And,
[02:00:22] you know, which also good for debates is
[02:00:23] this is you get them, you talk to them.
[02:00:26] You You You meet before. You say, "Hey,
[02:00:29] nice You recognize they're a person
[02:00:31] Yeah. across the table from you. So,
[02:00:33] it's really good when you're debating
[02:00:34] someone, you meet with them before, you
[02:00:36] shake their hand, you say, "Nice to meet
[02:00:37] you. Thank you for agreeing." It Even if
[02:00:40] you have dinner the night before, that's
[02:00:41] even better. That's one of the things I
[02:00:43] I kind of am disappointed when debating
[02:00:44] Muslims is they
[02:00:46] their religion says that they are to
[02:00:47] hate us. So, there's not a lot of that.
[02:00:49] >> That's unfortunate.
[02:00:50] >> You know, like I'll I'll see these guys
[02:00:51] these Muslims show up for the debate and
[02:00:53] then they leave right after. They don't
[02:00:54] want to talk to you. They don't want to
[02:00:55] be your friend.
[02:00:56] It's sad, really. It's really sad to see
[02:00:59] that. But that's just Islam. They They
[02:01:02] They are told that we are The Quran says
[02:01:04] we are the worst of creatures. It says
[02:01:06] they are the best of people Allah has
[02:01:07] raised up. That we are not They are not
[02:01:09] to be friends or allies with us.
[02:01:11] They are We are to be hated because we
[02:01:13] rejected Allah as messenger. It's really
[02:01:16] Compare that with Christianity. Pray for
[02:01:18] your enemies. Love those who persecute
[02:01:20] you. Pray Pray for them. Which is more
[02:01:22] likely to come from God and which is
[02:01:23] more likely to come from Satan? Mhm.
[02:01:27] Yes. I'll let that be a rhetorical
[02:01:28] question because I agree with where that
[02:01:30] was headed.
[02:01:32] Yeah.
[02:01:33] Yeah, and isn't it true that Muslims are
[02:01:34] taught to lie to infidels?
[02:01:36] >> Taqiya.
[02:01:37] What tell tell us about that? That's a
[02:01:38] great It's a great Mexican gift. No, I'm
[02:01:40] kidding.
[02:01:40] >> [laughter]
[02:01:40] >> No, it's um taqiya is like yeah, so if
[02:01:43] you're in war with the infidel, you can
[02:01:46] lie to deceive them.
[02:01:48] Here's the problem. A lot of Muslims
[02:01:50] point out that they are
[02:01:52] They're in a perpetual war with the
[02:01:54] non-Islamic world. The Muslims divide
[02:01:56] everything in the two houses, the house
[02:01:58] of Islam
[02:01:59] and the house of war.
[02:02:01] If you're not under the rule of Islam,
[02:02:02] you're in the house of war.
[02:02:04] Therefore, they can lie to us. They can
[02:02:07] do all sorts of things. And Muslims will
[02:02:09] kind of admit this occasionally.
[02:02:11] Sometimes they'll be like, "No, no,
[02:02:12] that's only for like in battles and
[02:02:13] fighting." They'll try to downplay it.
[02:02:16] No, it's it's real. They will lie to us,
[02:02:19] tell us what we want to hear to let
[02:02:21] us bring them into our culture. So,
[02:02:23] you're saying that when you're in an
[02:02:25] interaction with a Muslim, they may have
[02:02:27] that as a tactic.
[02:02:28] >> Oh, they do. I see it all the time.
[02:02:31] I I I mean, you'll see a Muslim
[02:02:33] debate and they'll be like, "Yeah, well,
[02:02:34] this philosopher said that." And you'll
[02:02:36] go check later and you're like, "He said
[02:02:37] the exact opposite."
[02:02:38] >> Woah. Yeah, you'll see that stuff all
[02:02:40] the time. It's really sad, but yeah.
[02:02:42] There it's
[02:02:44] Man, it's I I mean a lot of their top
[02:02:47] Muslim apologists are we we they're
[02:02:48] pathological liars. They will lie
[02:02:50] through their teeth about like
[02:02:52] you name it, anything about Muhammad and
[02:02:54] the stuff he did and then
[02:02:56] we have to we have to keep bringing up
[02:02:57] their own sources to show them what they
[02:02:59] actually teach.
[02:03:01] And so yeah, there it's part of Islam to
[02:03:03] lie, unfortunately. What's the
[02:03:04] motivation, right? Because as a
[02:03:06] Christian, if I get into an Uber with a
[02:03:07] Muslim, we start to talk, I hope that my
[02:03:10] motivation is that he would come to
[02:03:11] Christ and find salvation. Right. What's
[02:03:13] the motivation for the Muslim? Is it the
[02:03:15] same thing? The ends justifies the
[02:03:18] means. And what's the end that they're
[02:03:19] going for?
[02:03:20] >> That they get you into Islam and then
[02:03:22] Islam grows and gets a little bit more
[02:03:23] powerful.
[02:03:24] So Ali Dawah is a major Muslim
[02:03:26] apologist. He has admitted that there's
[02:03:29] an argument that he was convinced for
[02:03:30] Islam. It's called the scientific
[02:03:31] miracles in the Quran. That the Quran
[02:03:33] contains knowledge that no one in the
[02:03:35] 7th century could know. This is
[02:03:37] scientific miracles.
[02:03:38] >> I hear this. Embryology, etc. It's all a
[02:03:40] bunch of BS.
[02:03:41] >> Yeah. I mean, but he came out and said
[02:03:42] the scientific miracles argument has
[02:03:44] been debunked. But that's what convinced
[02:03:46] me that Islam is true, he said. But he's
[02:03:49] staying in Islam now. So in his mind, a
[02:03:52] lie got him to believe in Islam. And
[02:03:54] that's okay. That's a good thing cuz it
[02:03:56] got him into Islam. Yeah. So to them,
[02:03:58] they can lie to us if we become Muslim
[02:04:01] because ends justify the means. They'll
[02:04:03] get us into Islam. So who cares? That's
[02:04:05] the exact opposite we have in
[02:04:06] Christianity. So would this Muslim
[02:04:09] encourage people to use the scientific
[02:04:11] argument to get people into Islam or
[02:04:13] not? I think he would. I I hope I'm
[02:04:15] wrong, but I think he would. Like I
[02:04:18] because I've seen he was on another
[02:04:19] podcast with other Muslims, like this
[02:04:22] guy named Sonny Foss who's blocked me,
[02:04:24] won't debate me.
[02:04:25] Uh
[02:04:26] he was bringing up scientific miracles
[02:04:28] and no one was correcting him. Even
[02:04:30] though they knew it they know it's
[02:04:31] debunked.
[02:04:32] But that's that's that's Islam, man. If
[02:04:34] they can convince you to become a Muslim
[02:04:36] on a lie? That's a win for Islam. Could
[02:04:39] you imagine the same in Christianity?
[02:04:41] We'd be mortified. Like, yeah, if
[02:04:44] someone invented a story about Jesus
[02:04:45] appearing to George Washington or
[02:04:47] something, you'd be like, wait, no, that
[02:04:48] that didn't happen.
[02:04:49] >> did appear to the Native Americans,
[02:04:51] didn't he?
[02:04:51] Yeah, sure.
[02:04:52] >> wait. Sorry. No, no, that was
[02:04:55] that was the American Muhammad. Yeah.
[02:04:58] >> [laughter]
[02:04:58] >> Let me ask a final question to wrap this
[02:05:00] up. Tell me about why Joseph Smith could
[02:05:02] be thought of as the American Muhammad,
[02:05:05] if you even agree with that. Yeah, man.
[02:05:07] You think about it. I mean, both of them
[02:05:08] claim they had an angel appear to them
[02:05:11] and they're going to fix the world
[02:05:13] religions because they've gone astray.
[02:05:16] They had multiple wives, including a
[02:05:17] child bride.
[02:05:19] Uh Joseph Smith had a child bride?
[02:05:21] >> Probably a 14-year-old, you know. He had
[02:05:23] more wives than Muhammad. He was much
[02:05:24] more
[02:05:25] strong and
[02:05:26] >> more wives than Muhammad?
[02:05:28] >> Yeah.
[02:05:31] Okay. Yeah. I mean,
[02:05:33] gave his followers like certain laws,
[02:05:35] like can't have alcohol. I mean,
[02:05:38] you know, it's it's very similar in
[02:05:39] that, you know, okay, I'm the prophet.
[02:05:41] You should listen to me. I'm the
[02:05:42] greatest of these prophets.
[02:05:44] And I'm going to I have my own
[02:05:46] scriptures you need to follow and
[02:05:47] believe in. Very sim- Both Islam and
[02:05:50] Mormonism right there.
[02:05:51] Uh
[02:05:53] so I mean, yeah, there's differences,
[02:05:54] but there's also some just eerie
[02:05:56] similarities. It's like the same demon
[02:05:59] that choked Muhammad in the cave showed
[02:06:00] up to Joseph Smith years later or
[02:06:01] something.
[02:06:03] Let me ask a final question, right? So,
[02:06:05] Lewis,
[02:06:06] drawing from the church fathers,
[02:06:09] Christ is either who he claims to be or
[02:06:11] a bad man, right? So, lord, liar, or
[02:06:13] lunatic. Mhm.
[02:06:15] Um and I guess
[02:06:17] demonically possessed you could fit
[02:06:19] under
[02:06:20] lunatic, maybe, I don't know. But how
[02:06:21] would you What would you say of Joseph
[02:06:23] Smith and Muhammad? Prophet, liar, or
[02:06:25] lunatic?
[02:06:26] And it Or is there a fourth option? I
[02:06:28] mean, a third option. I guess the third
[02:06:29] option could be they're apocryphal, but
[02:06:30] >> If I had to pick, it'd be lunatic. Yeah.
[02:06:32] I mean, it it Lunatic for Muhammad?
[02:06:34] Yeah.
[02:06:35] >> Yeah. I think he I I honestly believe he
[02:06:38] really thought he was a prophet. I think
[02:06:40] something happened to him in that cave.
[02:06:43] I don't think it was an angel. I don't
[02:06:44] think it was
[02:06:45] something else. Yeah.
[02:06:47] >> But so in that case, maybe he was like
[02:06:49] demonically inspired. I think he was I
[02:06:51] thought I think that it got started, and
[02:06:52] then when he was thoroughly convinced,
[02:06:54] he started making up things that, you
[02:06:56] know, so I don't think the Quran is like
[02:06:57] written by Satan. I think some of it did
[02:07:00] start that way,
[02:07:01] but then he, Muhammad, was like, "All
[02:07:03] right, I'm going to run this ship now."
[02:07:04] And he started putting things in there
[02:07:05] that,
[02:07:06] you know, gave us the tools we need to
[02:07:08] debunk it today. Let me ask you a
[02:07:10] question that the Mormons are going to
[02:07:12] ask in the Mhm. in the comment section,
[02:07:14] cuz whenever I talk about them, they get
[02:07:15] really upset.
[02:07:16] >> [laughter]
[02:07:17] >> That's fine. I'm I'm fine with the Why
[02:07:18] not uh why be like this? I mean, you
[02:07:20] just got saying you got done saying that
[02:07:22] we should all like unite together and
[02:07:23] stop criticizing each other. Why would
[02:07:25] you criticize uh Joseph Smith? Because
[02:07:27] Mormons are not Christian.
[02:07:29] And I want them in the I want them in
[02:07:30] the kingdom. Dude, okay.
[02:07:33] Why?
[02:07:35] Uh because they deny essential Christian
[02:07:36] doctrines. They add a prophet and
[02:07:39] revelation that doesn't need to be added
[02:07:41] that changes fundamental doctrines.
[02:07:44] You're you're you're outside of the body
[02:07:46] of Christ at that point. You're
[02:07:46] believing in things that are heretical.
[02:07:48] You're believing in things that are
[02:07:49] false.
[02:07:50] I mean, like again, I'm fine with
[02:07:51] Christians working together, but we have
[02:07:53] to call out heresy. We cannot just open
[02:07:55] the the boundaries to include who we
[02:07:57] want. I wish I could say Mormons are
[02:07:59] Christian. I wish I could.
[02:08:00] >> Well, the way their doctrine seems to be
[02:08:02] morphing, you might be able to do that
[02:08:04] soon. I hope so. Maybe
[02:08:05] >> see what I mean by that? Like
[02:08:06] >> Maybe the next prophet will come along
[02:08:08] and go be like, "You know what?"
[02:08:09] >> Cuz they started practicing Lent.
[02:08:12] I believe on their website they
[02:08:13] >> Good. they dissuaded Mormons from
[02:08:15] practicing Lent. This last time I saw
[02:08:17] some people
[02:08:18] So, I don't know. I mean, they don't
[02:08:19] believe in biblical inerrancy, and they
[02:08:20] don't believe that their prophets are
[02:08:22] infallible.
[02:08:23] Mhm. And they're moving away from
[02:08:26] doctrines they once taught. Listen, so
[02:08:29] maybe they'll just get there eventually.
[02:08:31] >> Believe in the Trinity, reject the Book
[02:08:33] of Mormon, and
[02:08:34] >> Maybe after this debate with God Logic,
[02:08:35] maybe we'll see a swath of uh
[02:08:38] Mormons accepting the doctrine. I mean,
[02:08:40] I'd love to see Mormons are Christians.
[02:08:42] When they start believing correct
[02:08:43] doctrine, I will. And have a baptism
[02:08:45] that's valid. That's the reason we
[02:08:47] Catholics can't accept them as
[02:08:48] Christian. Cuz what they mean by Father,
[02:08:50] Son, and Holy Spirit are completely
[02:08:52] different.
[02:08:52] >> That's an argument I use to show that
[02:08:53] we're all Christian. Because I go to the
[02:08:55] Protestants and they're like, "The
[02:08:56] Catholics aren't Christian." Like, why?
[02:08:58] They believe in all the essential
[02:08:59] doctrines you believe in. They profess
[02:09:00] Jesus is Lord. They believe in the
[02:09:01] Trinity. And they go,
[02:09:03] "Okay."
[02:09:04] I go to the Catholics and the Orthodox.
[02:09:05] "Why aren't Protestants Christian?" Uh
[02:09:07] we don't say that. Catholics don't say
[02:09:08] that.
[02:09:09] >> Well, you're right. You're right. The
[02:09:10] church is still But someone like the the
[02:09:11] the you know, the Ortho Bros or the you
[02:09:13] know, the trolls online will say that.
[02:09:14] And I go, "Here's how I convince the
[02:09:16] trolls." The the the I get most
[02:09:17] Christians agree, but I'm talking about
[02:09:18] just the trolls here.
[02:09:20] Does baptism save?
[02:09:22] Does the Orthodox or the Catholic Church
[02:09:23] rebaptize Protestants? The Orthodox
[02:09:25] sometimes do. We don't.
[02:09:27] >> Yeah, the Catholics do not. Mo- The
[02:09:28] Ortho- I believe the official teaching
[02:09:30] of the Orthodox Church is
[02:09:31] "No, you don't need They don't need to
[02:09:32] be re- rebaptized. Sometimes they do
[02:09:34] just out of like
[02:09:35] >> it depends on which Orthodox we're
[02:09:36] talking about. Yeah, I mean, for us,
[02:09:38] it's like if you're bap- if you are
[02:09:39] baptized in the name of the Father and
[02:09:40] of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
[02:09:42] the person who did it intends to do what
[02:09:44] the church does when she baptizes,
[02:09:46] you're validly baptized. And to
[02:09:47] rebaptize would be
[02:09:50] like a wrong thing to do, you know, in a
[02:09:51] way.
[02:09:52] >> So, I mean, if baptism saves, and I I
[02:09:53] think it does, uh okay, then Protestants
[02:09:57] are saved. So, we're we're all one
[02:09:59] family. The problem is like Mormons,
[02:10:00] Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians,
[02:10:02] they're not baptizing properly either.
[02:10:04] They're not believing core doctrines. I
[02:10:06] mean, I just have to get it on record
[02:10:08] that I think there's more to it than
[02:10:09] that. Like, as a Catholic, we'd want we
[02:10:11] would think that you could lose your
[02:10:12] salvation.
[02:10:13] >> I I I've I've landed there.
[02:10:16] Uh I think I think that's that's that
[02:10:18] seems to be what the Church Fathers
[02:10:19] taught. And And the end of the day, I'm
[02:10:20] going to go with the Church fathers. If
[02:10:22] If I If I Unless I'm thoroughly
[02:10:24] convinced
[02:10:24] >> Yeah, like if there's a stalemate, you
[02:10:25] mean? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so So, I
[02:10:28] think that's that What I mean by
[02:10:29] stalemate is you've got the Protestant
[02:10:31] saying this, the Catholic saying this,
[02:10:33] and we're like, all right, we both know
[02:10:34] what the scripture teaches. What does it
[02:10:36] mean? That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, I
[02:10:37] mean, I'm not nailed to that. I mean,
[02:10:39] I'm not going to debate once saved,
[02:10:40] always saved. I hope that's true. I
[02:10:42] really do. So, I mean, like cuz I want
[02:10:44] people to be saved, but I mean, like
[02:10:47] I think that's what the traditional
[02:10:48] teaching is, is that you can't lose. You
[02:10:49] can reject the gift of God,
[02:10:51] unfortunately. And I think God wants
[02:10:53] that freedom there for a reason.
[02:10:55] All right, brother. Well, peace. Cheers
[02:10:57] to the Mormons
[02:10:59] to the Mormons. The Mormon-noons, as we
[02:11:01] say. The Mormon what?
[02:11:04] Oh.
[02:11:04] The Mormon-noons? Well, we would There's
[02:11:06] a Sometimes we call the Muslims the
[02:11:08] Mormon-noons. I didn't hear that. So,
[02:11:09] we've been calling them the
[02:11:10] Mormon-noons.
[02:11:11] >> [laughter]
[02:11:11] >> Good. Thanks for being on the show.
[02:11:13] Where can people find your stuff? We'll
[02:11:14] link to your channel below and
[02:11:15] everything. Is that's the main place?
[02:11:16] The main place is the YouTube channel,
[02:11:18] Inspiring Philosophy, but I'm under that
[02:11:21] name on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. So,
[02:11:24] if you want to see Mark dressed up as a
[02:11:27] Muslim, then go to his TikTok and
[02:11:30] Instagram now. Yeah. God bless. Thanks,
[02:11:32] brother. Thank you.
[02:11:35] >> [music]
[02:11:41] >> Thank you very much. I cannot believe
[02:11:42] you made it all the way to the end of
[02:11:44] this interview. The fact that you did
[02:11:46] shows me that you might enjoy a lot of
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