# The $2.4M/Yr Business You Can Start Tomorrow ($300 Startup)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEwO__X9FTI

[00:00] So, you went from bankrupt to 2.4
[00:02] million of revenue. And roughly, what do
[00:05] you take home of that 2.4 million?
[00:07] >> $610.
[00:08] >> John went from bankruptcy to building a
[00:11] business doing $2.4 million a year and
[00:14] $600,000 a year in profit. His story
[00:17] will shock you.
[00:17] >> I'm in the throws of severe financial
[00:20] strain. I mean, towards the end of this
[00:22] time, I'm on unemployment. I'm on food
[00:24] stamps. I went from six figures to food
[00:26] stamps in the course of like a year
[00:28] >> with two kids.
[00:29] >> Four kids at this time.
[00:30] >> Four kids. The best part about John's
[00:32] story is his first lesson. If you pay
[00:34] attention, it's practically idiot proof.
[00:37] >> He kind of leans over or he looks over
[00:39] at me and says, "Hey, I noticed you're
[00:41] into business and stuff. I used to own a
[00:43] business." I look over at him. I'm like,
[00:44] "Yeah, sure." I'm thinking to myself,
[00:46] "Did he just say what I think he just
[00:48] said?" This light bulb went in my head,
[00:49] "If this guy can make 30 grand a month
[00:51] in cleaning, I for sure can do it. John
[00:55] from Club Clean. Thank you for joining
[00:56] me on Boring Money.
[00:57] >> Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.
[00:59] >> So, you played professional baseball
[01:01] before you became an entrepreneur. Why
[01:02] don't you tell me a bit about that?
[01:04] >> Sure. So, as you said, I'm John Torres.
[01:07] I started club clean, but long before
[01:08] that, I was a failed professional
[01:10] athlete and um and then I went on to the
[01:13] professional world and and after years
[01:16] of climbing a ladder, uh I ended up
[01:18] losing um or getting laid off from two
[01:21] middle management jobs in 9 months. and
[01:23] and so it kind of forced me into
[01:25] entrepreneurship
[01:26] and um a couple of failed ventures there
[01:30] including bankruptcy I finally like out
[01:33] of the ashes um I I club clean was born
[01:37] so to speak um and now you know we like
[01:39] you mentioned we'll probably get into
[01:41] this but now that's a multi-million
[01:43] dollar a year company
[01:44] >> yeah let's actually talk about the
[01:45] bankruptcy because I think that's an
[01:47] interesting story so you went from you
[01:49] you went from working went into real
[01:51] estate
[01:52] >> Mhm. So, why don't you tell me about the
[01:54] real estate venture?
[01:55] >> Yeah. So, you know, my my initial dream
[01:57] was to become a major league baseball
[01:59] player one day and when my wife was
[02:01] pregnant with our second kid, I got
[02:03] released for my second pro team and I
[02:05] realized the writing wasn't on the wall
[02:07] for that cuz I was making 600 700 bucks
[02:09] a month before taxes and and so getting
[02:12] a second kid during with that kind of a
[02:14] salary um isn't exactly sustainable. And
[02:18] and it was just such a a hard-fought
[02:19] road to even compete uh at that level.
[02:22] Um, so I I saw the writing on the wall
[02:24] and I went into the professional world.
[02:26] Um, and and once, you know, once I got
[02:29] laid off for my second job and and
[02:32] despite on paper performing really well,
[02:35] I
[02:35] >> And what was the industry you were in?
[02:37] >> I was in facility services um,
[02:39] specifically related to to parking
[02:41] management. So, I I was in um hotels and
[02:44] and commercial buildings throughout DC
[02:47] and Chicago and and overseeing a bunch
[02:49] of buildings for a really large like the
[02:51] largest um parking company in in the
[02:54] world. And it was interesting is is I
[02:58] realized how how little control I had
[03:00] over my future even if I performed well.
[03:03] And and so when I when I saw that that
[03:05] was coming to a close, I I I started to
[03:09] um really grow in my hunger and and
[03:12] desire to to have something that I could
[03:14] call my own and and to tap into that
[03:17] 13-year-old version of me that was was
[03:19] selling candy out of my backpack from
[03:21] Costco uh for a profit. and and when I
[03:24] was in high school, I was, you know,
[03:26] running running lawns and I had a
[03:28] handful of of monthly accounts uh that
[03:30] throw my dad's lawn mower in the in the
[03:32] pickup truck and and you kind of forget
[03:35] about those things you're doing when
[03:36] you're, you know, pursuing something
[03:38] like baseball. But once I saw that um in
[03:42] the professional world, you you're your
[03:44] success can in at times really be tied
[03:47] to somebody else's perception of you.
[03:49] >> Yeah. Um, then I started to remember
[03:53] that that middle school or high schooler
[03:55] version of me that was quite
[03:56] entrepreneurial. And so I started
[03:58] reading books and listening to podcasts
[04:00] and going to to meetup groups about real
[04:03] estate and finance and and
[04:04] entrepreneurship.
[04:06] And so about 2015, I bought my first
[04:08] property. Um, and that at that time I
[04:11] was in the DC metropolitan area. And so
[04:13] I started buying houses in Baltimore
[04:15] just because they were cheaper than DC.
[04:16] >> So what type of properties were you
[04:18] targeting? What was your strategy?
[04:19] >> It was all residential. So, my my
[04:21] initial goal was to um was to flip
[04:25] houses so that I can build up capital to
[04:27] then buy uh rental properties and and
[04:29] the goal was to build a a large rental
[04:32] portfolio. What made you decide to lock
[04:34] in on that? I mean, I think it's I think
[04:36] a lot of entrepreneurs
[04:38] um especially that watch YouTube get
[04:40] sucked into real estate. It's actually
[04:42] not something I'm a huge fan of, but
[04:44] it's something I've I've gotten sucked
[04:46] into before. like what what was it about
[04:48] real estate that attracted you to it in
[04:51] 2015?
[04:51] >> I I think you kind of named it. It's a
[04:54] big topic of conversation um in podcast
[04:57] at that time. I mean, YouTube wasn't
[04:58] quite
[04:59] >> quite as big. Um but yeah, it's it's
[05:02] just a it was part of the the
[05:05] entrepreneurial easy cash passive cash
[05:08] flow conversation. I quickly realized
[05:11] how not passive real estate is um in in
[05:15] >> what makes it not passive
[05:16] >> because there will always be tenant
[05:18] issues. There's always going to be a
[05:20] contractor issue. There's always going
[05:21] to be something that draws you into
[05:24] actively having to work in that
[05:27] business. So, can you actually walk me
[05:29] through a like a investment you made in
[05:32] real estate and what what you
[05:35] forecasting the business model aka the
[05:37] cash flow from that to look like and
[05:39] then what you were having to do for that
[05:40] cash flow. I think that would be useful.
[05:43] >> Yeah, that's interesting. So, um
[05:45] probably the best example I could give
[05:47] that really put the nail in the coffin
[05:49] for me in that I'm probably close to 10
[05:53] properties in at this point. Uh it was
[05:55] 2018 2017 and and I had bought a
[06:00] three-unit property in Chicago and um I
[06:03] had a friend who was a real estate agent
[06:05] and he was buying houses and fixing them
[06:07] up in that same neighborhood and so I
[06:10] kind of trusted his judgment cuz he had
[06:11] been an agent for a while. he was
[06:13] personally investing in that that
[06:14] neighborhood and it was close enough to
[06:17] the city that I felt like there was a
[06:19] future there um and that I but I was
[06:22] early enough that I could get the
[06:24] property for a good price. But I didn't
[06:26] do um despite having done a bunch of
[06:29] projects already, I didn't do the proper
[06:30] due diligence on that and and I trusted
[06:33] more his judgment than what the numbers
[06:35] actually said. And so I I bought this
[06:37] property for about 300,000. And the idea
[06:41] was um cuz the one of the units was
[06:44] vacant, I was going to renovate the
[06:46] vacant unit. It had two other tenants in
[06:48] there and I was going to sell it to an
[06:49] owner occupant who who wanted a a you
[06:53] were going to do a flip. It wasn't a
[06:54] cash flow. Was that always your model?
[06:57] Was you were you always intending to
[06:58] flip?
[06:58] >> I was intending to flip for the first
[07:00] couple years cuz I wanted to build a
[07:02] large uh chest, war chest that I could
[07:05] just use to start buying rental
[07:06] properties. Um, and that was kind of
[07:08] phase two was build up a rental property
[07:11] portfolio. And so I was still very much
[07:13] in the throws of of trying to um to get
[07:16] enough cash in the bank so that I could
[07:18] have that freedom and flexibility on the
[07:20] rental side. And so we get the the place
[07:23] renovated
[07:24] um and then it's sitting on the market
[07:26] for about a month and we get an offer
[07:29] that was about 50 grand less than what I
[07:33] was hoping to get for it and and was
[07:36] recommended by by the agent. Um and
[07:38] again I should have known better because
[07:41] this wasn't my first property but I was
[07:42] kind of trusting his judgment. So it sat
[07:45] on the market for another eight months.
[07:47] I didn't get another offer as big as
[07:49] that first one during that whole time.
[07:52] And unfortunately, I didn't have great
[07:54] tenants. And so, um, during those nine
[07:57] months, both of them stopped paying the
[07:59] rent. And the property management h
[08:01] company that was overseeing it wasn't
[08:03] helping me collect the rents on time or
[08:05] do much about it. And so, back back
[08:08] again to passive versus active, I had to
[08:11] literally take over that because the the
[08:13] property management company just wasn't
[08:14] doing it. and I I needed the cash from
[08:16] from those tenants to help shoulder the
[08:18] load or the carrying cost. And um and
[08:21] then towards the end of that nine
[08:23] months, the second tenant I have to
[08:25] evict um from the top floor. So now I
[08:28] have a second unit I now need to
[08:29] renovate that I wasn't uh considering in
[08:32] my my budget to to have to renovate. So
[08:34] I renovate that one. Then the um the
[08:38] bottom floor tenant steals all of the
[08:42] appliances from the second and third
[08:43] floor unit. And so now I have to replace
[08:46] all the the units there and evict that
[08:50] tenant now. And so now I had to renovate
[08:52] passive.
[08:53] >> Not passive at all.
[08:54] >> Um and so then I had to evict them and
[08:56] then I had to renovate a third unit. And
[08:59] so just imagine you you have on paper a
[09:02] $300,000 house that you think you can
[09:04] sell for four and you're counting 30
[09:06] grand to renovate one unit. There's a
[09:09] there's a decent spread there if you can
[09:10] sell it in a reasonable amount of time.
[09:12] Well, I just tripled the cost of my
[09:15] renovation because of all of the
[09:17] activity happening in the building and I
[09:19] had to redo a bunch of work because of
[09:21] the the theft happening. Um and to boot
[09:25] even this if that wasn't enough um
[09:27] during the time I owned it someone was
[09:29] literally shot in on the steps of that
[09:32] um on the steps of of that building. And
[09:34] so it was one thing after another um in
[09:37] this property and eventually I ended up
[09:39] selling it for 20,000 less than my a
[09:42] year later for 20,000 less than the
[09:44] offer I got in the first month of the
[09:46] house.
[09:47] >> And did you end up making any money on
[09:49] it or
[09:50] >> No. U I ended up paying um out of pocket
[09:54] probably about 50 grand to sell that
[09:56] property. Um and then all the headaches
[09:57] I had for you did all that all that work
[09:59] >> For negative 50 grand. Um and so that
[10:04] was um I wish I wish I could say that
[10:06] was the the you know the last or first
[10:08] or you know the worst thing I
[10:10] experienced but but it wasn't.
[10:12] >> What actually ultimately led to your
[10:13] bankruptcy? Yeah, it was a combination
[10:15] of um of situations like that and um and
[10:19] when I left the
[10:20] >> Baltimore So you had multiple situations
[10:23] like that happen to you?
[10:24] >> Yeah. Where where I did take a loss on a
[10:26] couple other properties. Some I I I made
[10:29] some money on. Um couple I ended up just
[10:31] holding because the I could tell I
[10:34] wasn't going to get what I needed and so
[10:35] so we ended up getting a couple rentals
[10:37] there. But um what really was the straw
[10:40] that that broke the camel's back was uh
[10:42] I relocated to the Chicago market after
[10:44] buying a couple properties there and
[10:46] after the layoff from the job and and
[10:49] the goal at that time was to open a
[10:52] franchise with my wife and and we were
[10:54] going to do like a a fudge and ice cream
[10:56] shop that we were working in with some
[10:59] friends in in Maryland and and there was
[11:02] opportunity right across from Wrigley
[11:03] Field. So what made you think because I
[11:05] think this is a mistake a lot of
[11:06] entrepreneurs make or some a lot of you
[11:09] know people make. So you're in real
[11:10] estate you're focusing on real estate
[11:12] it's not working so well so you decide
[11:14] you're going to you're you decide you're
[11:16] going to diversify and try to do both.
[11:19] Walk me through that mindset.
[11:20] >> Well at when we decided to do that real
[11:23] estate was still going okay. So that was
[11:26] pre
[11:26] >> So things are going well and you decide
[11:29] rather than doing more of something
[11:30] that's going well, you're going to
[11:32] you're going to split your energy and do
[11:34] something else.
[11:34] >> Yeah. Which is, you know, which as you
[11:36] know works extremely well all the time
[11:38] without fail. Um yeah, that that was um
[11:41] that was probably more a distraction
[11:43] than anything else. And I think my
[11:45] assumption was um my wife loved working
[11:47] at the shop. So, I I I kind of figured
[11:50] she would be the main presence
[11:52] managerially within within the franchise
[11:55] and I would be more the back-end
[11:57] support. Um, and I would focus more of
[12:00] my energy on continuing the real estate
[12:02] uh portfolio I was trying to build and
[12:05] and we relocate to Chicago during this
[12:07] time because we were going to open that
[12:09] franchise within the Chicago market and
[12:12] I started buying some multifamilies in
[12:13] Chicago. Um, so we were making that
[12:16] transition and while I did that, uh, I
[12:19] found a contractor to take over. There
[12:21] was probably four projects that were
[12:23] still being renovated in Baltimore at
[12:25] the time. And so I found an experienced
[12:27] contractor. I walked his current
[12:29] properties just to see what his work was
[12:31] like. I put him under contract. I got
[12:34] copy of his license and insurance. And
[12:36] um, and I put him, you know, we ended up
[12:38] signing a a draw order and um, and we
[12:42] had a very well- definfined scope. I
[12:44] felt pretty good about it. And like two
[12:46] months after leaving, I I noticed while
[12:49] I'm starting to have issues with this
[12:51] property that I just described was a
[12:53] nightmare property. In the midst of
[12:55] that, I stopped getting updates from him
[12:58] like I had been. And I knew something
[13:00] was off. And so I fly back to Baltimore
[13:02] to check on the projects and just see
[13:04] what's going on. And sure enough, the I
[13:07] mean, this is months later and all the
[13:09] houses look exactly as they did after I
[13:11] left. But the problem is I had given
[13:13] them over 55 grand in draws across these
[13:16] properties to get work going. And so
[13:19] while I'm getting hit on this side with
[13:21] the Chicago property, I'm also getting
[13:23] hit with with um all of the the loss of
[13:26] this these draws. I had to fire him
[13:28] because he told me he was filing for
[13:30] bankruptcy and then start all over
[13:32] without the 55 grand I had given him in
[13:34] initial draws with new contractors.
[13:38] Um, and being, you know, at the time,
[13:39] like when I first got these properties,
[13:41] I still had a six-f figureure job in
[13:43] management job. So, that was helping me
[13:46] shoulder the load of a lot of the
[13:48] carrying cost and it was just too much
[13:50] at that point. So, I no longer had that
[13:52] salary. I'm taking these huge losses on
[13:55] rent out. They're they're pure flipping.
[13:57] >> These are these are houses I'm still
[13:59] renovating. I haven't even gotten to the
[14:01] point to decide how I'm going to divest
[14:02] it. Although the initial um initial plan
[14:05] was to flip them. And so before I could
[14:08] even get to that point um the the losses
[14:10] became pretty insurmountable at that
[14:12] time. And so um I quickly and this is
[14:16] 2018 um um towards towards the
[14:19] summertime. And I quickly realized I
[14:22] need to completely get out of real
[14:25] estate because I'm I'm starting to drown
[14:27] with um with just the losses and on both
[14:30] ends. Yeah.
[14:31] >> So, just for a bit of context here, you
[14:34] >> had a six-f figureure management job and
[14:37] you just started flipping real estate on
[14:39] the side. Um, and
[14:42] >> that did not work out well because you
[14:46] were effectively doing fix and flips but
[14:48] getting, you know, not managing them
[14:50] maybe in the the way that they need to
[14:52] be managed. probably taking on a little
[14:54] bit more trying to do too many projects
[14:56] at once and kind of finding that, you
[15:00] know, you were not managing the
[15:01] contractors in the way that maybe they
[15:03] need to be managed.
[15:04] >> For sure. And and
[15:06] >> and at the same time, you're setting up
[15:07] a franch you have a franchise that
[15:09] you're that you're also trying to run in
[15:12] Chicago.
[15:13] >> Yeah, we were we were working part-time
[15:15] to get experience in the store. My wife
[15:17] and I were.
[15:17] >> So, you're working So, you never
[15:18] actually bought the franchise. You were
[15:20] just training for the franchise. We were
[15:21] getting set up for that. Yeah. We never
[15:23] um and so we we relocated for for that
[15:26] plus the real estate I was buying. Um
[15:28] and before that could we could even
[15:30] break ground on that negotiations with
[15:32] the landlord broke down. And so we were
[15:34] we were already approved by the
[15:36] franchiseor. Um we we had the the money
[15:40] portion set up already. uh we were ready
[15:42] to break ground, but about 3 months
[15:44] before we were supposed to um we just
[15:47] couldn't see eye to eye with the
[15:48] landlord and all the other options for
[15:50] the store just didn't make sense given
[15:52] what we were selling.
[15:53] >> So, you never ended up doing it.
[15:54] >> We never ended up doing it.
[15:55] >> We were on the road. We're on the path.
[15:57] Um that ended up um stalling.
[16:00] >> But what what's interesting is is I
[16:03] >> and you're kind of highlighting it a
[16:04] little bit. Um but the idea and the way
[16:07] it's talked about in real estate is how
[16:09] passive it is. And I found out firsthand
[16:11] how not passive it is. And so it gives
[16:13] you this this perception you can do it
[16:15] on weekends. You can do it in your in
[16:17] the in your free time during the week
[16:19] because it's passive, but it's not. It
[16:21] it really is.
[16:22] >> But but it's not passive. And then the
[16:24] other thing like we didn't I I was
[16:26] curious about how did you finance all of
[16:28] this? Like what was the what was the
[16:29] mechanism you were using to to pay for
[16:32] >> sure
[16:32] >> all these transactions?
[16:33] >> Well, I had great credit. I mean, my at
[16:35] that time I started my credit was in the
[16:36] 800s and um and I had some cash because
[16:40] I we were living below our means, but um
[16:43] I I leveraged those two things to get
[16:46] hard money loans for flips.
[16:48] >> So, non-bank loans, you were just going
[16:49] to to lenders and like what kind of
[16:51] interest rates were you paying?
[16:52] >> It was it wasn't terrible. It but it was
[16:55] it wasn't good. It was between like 10
[16:56] and 14% depending on the property. But
[16:59] this is when this is at the you know
[17:01] >> this when it was 3%
[17:03] >> 3% bank loan. So today it's probably be
[17:05] 15% for the equivalent
[17:06] >> at least
[17:07] >> for for the equivalent.
[17:09] >> You know what I say about real estate is
[17:10] not only is it not passive um it's also
[17:14] very levered and the the the kind of net
[17:17] income I as I like to think about it or
[17:19] the cash flow at the end of the day is
[17:21] very small relative to the amount of
[17:22] leverage risk that you're taking.
[17:24] >> For sure and I unfortunately learned
[17:26] that firsthand.
[17:27] >> Yeah. Okay. So, walk me through the
[17:28] bankruptcy. I think that's that's where
[17:29] we need to to
[17:31] >> Yeah. Yeah. That was tough. I mean, um,
[17:33] we moved to Chicago with all these hopes
[17:35] and dreams of this real estate empire
[17:37] and franchise empire. Um, and I want to
[17:40] say 4 months into the move, we realize
[17:42] neither are happening. And and so, as
[17:45] I'm literally talking to bankruptcy
[17:48] lawyers to get from under the hundreds
[17:50] and hundreds of thousands of dollars of
[17:52] debt that I acquired and and wasn't able
[17:54] to pay back. um and and stopping the
[17:58] journey and the road to the franchise.
[18:01] I'm all we've also relocated to a new
[18:03] city and and it's like what do we do
[18:06] now? Like we came here for these things
[18:08] and now these things are not happening.
[18:11] Um and so interestingly enough like a as
[18:13] I'm in the throws of of like severe
[18:16] financial strain. I mean towards the end
[18:18] of this time I'm on unemployment. I'm on
[18:21] food stamps. Like we're we're we're
[18:23] barely I went from six figures to food
[18:25] stamps in the course of like a year
[18:27] >> with two kids.
[18:28] >> Four kids at this time. We're living in
[18:29] >> Four kids.
[18:31] a temporary apartment or not apartment,
[18:33] it was a house, but tiny house. Uh we
[18:36] had moved from a a really a really nice
[18:38] prop property for our family to this
[18:40] tiny house that was meant to be
[18:41] temporary um as we were set getting
[18:44] settled in Chicago market. And and so my
[18:47] wife is is really just needing to get
[18:50] out of that house right as uh right as
[18:53] things are starting to close in on me.
[18:55] And so I had like some serious moments
[18:59] of like reflection and prayer and I'm
[19:01] I'm trying to figure out what move to
[19:03] make next because we we almost felt
[19:06] called to the area. So for everything to
[19:09] then not work out was very a very
[19:11] confusing thing. also when you feel like
[19:14] you know you made the right move um
[19:16] directionally but then all the things
[19:18] you're trying aren't landing. Um and so
[19:22] I kind of went back to the drawing board
[19:24] and and I I looked in my life for what
[19:27] what actually did work over the last
[19:29] year and and funny enough it goes back
[19:31] to that first house I bought in 2015.
[19:34] The contractor who who renovated that
[19:36] for me his his uh construction company
[19:39] was his second business. The first one
[19:41] he had started years prior was a
[19:43] janitorial business. And I knew that
[19:47] while I was still working in facility
[19:49] management and I had some in um and
[19:53] relationships and pool with about 10 or
[19:55] so buildings in uh in the DC market and
[19:58] so I I started an LLC and I subbed him
[20:02] to do all these all this work. And so he
[20:04] was doing all the work, but I was still
[20:06] getting like a $1,1200 check a month p
[20:10] like completely passively because of of
[20:13] that relationship. And so even after
[20:15] relocating to Chicago, he was still
[20:17] doing the work. And I remember right
[20:20] when we were needing it, too, we got a
[20:22] check for probably $6,500, something
[20:24] like that. And at the time, that felt
[20:26] like a fortune because of how everything
[20:28] was going in the opposite direction.
[20:31] and and fast forward a couple months as
[20:33] I'm dealing with the fact that that
[20:36] multif family is going south, the
[20:38] contractor stealing my money, the
[20:41] franchise is is coming to a dead end, um
[20:44] that opportunity. Um I'm I'm like, well,
[20:46] what did work? And I I thought of that
[20:49] check I got from a couple months prior.
[20:51] And I said, well, that actually worked.
[20:53] Maybe there's something there. And and
[20:55] so I pick up the phone and mind you, I
[20:58] don't even have an LLC yet. I've never
[21:00] bid on a job in cleaning in my life. Um,
[21:03] but I have some cold calling experience.
[21:05] Um, and it was funny as I'm at work and
[21:08] I'm I'm trying to teach myself on
[21:10] YouTube how to bid.
[21:11] >> Let's say you're at work. Where are you
[21:12] actually working at this point?
[21:13] >> So, I had to get a temporary job because
[21:15] of all this, another management job. Um,
[21:18] working nights and weekends to kind of
[21:20] keep my days free for the other things I
[21:22] was trying to make make work. And so,
[21:25] um, I'm, you know, I forget if it was a
[21:27] weekend or night, but there was a lot of
[21:28] free time. So, I'm I'm YouTubing how to
[21:31] big cleaning jobs. And there's a guy in
[21:33] the office with me who's sitting over
[21:35] there and and he was one of my employees
[21:37] who um union worker very I don't know
[21:42] how to describe him other than to say
[21:45] you could tell he was doing just enough
[21:47] not to get fired or get in trouble.
[21:49] >> Um but generally speaking, he didn't
[21:52] have a ton of respect in the office as a
[21:53] whole. And he looks and I'm kind of
[21:55] wondering why he's in the office. just
[21:57] for my for my um knowledge like what
[21:59] type of job what type of management job
[22:01] like what type of company was it?
[22:02] >> It was a parking industry again.
[22:04] >> So you're you're back in the parking
[22:05] >> back in the parking industry. Which
[22:06] definitely felt like another step
[22:08] backwards cuz I just left that.
[22:10] >> Um but he he kind of leans over or he
[22:13] looks over at me and says, "Hey, I
[22:15] noticed you're into business and stuff.
[22:17] Um I used to own a business." I look
[22:19] over at him. I'm like, "Yeah, sure."
[22:21] Like, "Of course you did, buddy." Um,
[22:23] and I get back to like learning and and
[22:25] trying to figure out how to bid cleaning
[22:27] jobs. And he goes and he knows nothing
[22:29] about what I'm doing. He just sees that
[22:31] I I happen to be in in business um
[22:34] related things. And he says, "Yeah, me
[22:36] and my uh me and my fiance owned a
[22:38] cleaning company." And I said, "What did
[22:42] you just say?" He goes, "Yeah, we had
[22:44] like 30 banks. We were making like 30
[22:46] something thousand a month. We I almost
[22:49] quit this job to do that full-time." And
[22:52] then I got hurt on the job and could no
[22:54] longer clean. And I'm thinking to
[22:55] myself, did he just say what I think he
[22:57] just said? And and so this light bulb
[22:59] went on my head, if this guy can make 30
[23:01] grand a month in cleaning, I for sure
[23:03] can do it. Um, and so that gave me like
[23:06] this this conviction that I'm on the
[23:09] right road and I can certainly make this
[23:11] work. And so I learned what I need to
[23:13] learn. And then that week I pick up the
[23:15] phone and start cold calling companies
[23:17] um banks because he said he did banks
[23:20] and and seeing if they needed cleaning.
[23:22] And I get to the last name on the list.
[23:25] Everyone else was no no or not yet or
[23:27] whatever. The last bank she said I
[23:30] actually was just thinking we need to
[23:31] hire a cleaning company. I was about to
[23:33] call some. And so I go to her property
[23:35] that day. Um, she allowed me to come
[23:39] that afternoon and I bid on this strip
[23:41] and wax job with her floors and I win
[23:43] it. And so I'm kind of excited like,
[23:46] wow, one day of cold calling.
[23:47] >> So, did you have any tools at this
[23:49] point? Had you bought any of the
[23:50] equipment? You bought nothing?
[23:51] >> I I had no idea how to even strip and
[23:53] wax a floor.
[23:55] >> So,
[23:55] >> so you sold So, so you sold something
[23:58] and you didn't even know how to You
[23:59] didn't even know how you were going to
[24:00] actually do it yet.
[24:01] >> No, I I didn't know the tools I would
[24:03] need. I didn't know the process. I knew
[24:05] nothing. So, I literally leave there and
[24:06] I hop on YouTube, how do you prep and
[24:09] wax floors? And so, I I find out like
[24:12] the process and the equipment and then I
[24:14] go to the janitorial supply house in
[24:16] town. Uh, and I booked the job a week
[24:18] out knowing I was going to need some
[24:20] buffer to figure out how to do this.
[24:22] >> What was your strategy for how you
[24:23] priced it and then walk me through how
[24:25] much it actually cost you to deliver it?
[24:27] >> Honestly, that was kind of a a lucky
[24:29] shot in the dark. I I I sort of assumed
[24:33] based on the floor it can't take longer
[24:36] than this was kind of my thinking. And
[24:38] so then I bid a number per hour based on
[24:41] that which was probably around 40 bucks
[24:43] an hour or something like that. And so I
[24:46] think it was like $1,000 or $900 or
[24:48] something. I knew it would be a one day
[24:50] job for sure because of the size of the
[24:52] the building. And so I thought $900
[24:54] could certainly be worth doing this. And
[24:58] and so I I go to the supply house that I
[25:00] now now that I know the equipment I need
[25:02] to get and I rent this machine. The guy
[25:05] sells me the the chemicals. I don't know
[25:08] how to use this machine.
[25:09] >> And how how much did it cost you
[25:11] >> um for all of that? It was about $100
[25:15] for the the machine and then it was
[25:18] about $100 for this the chemicals and
[25:21] pads and things like that. And so it's
[25:23] roughly 200 bucks. Um, and the problem
[25:27] is I I don't know how to use this stuff.
[25:29] And so the GM of the janitorial supply
[25:31] house literally taught me to use this
[25:33] machine in the warehouse in the back and
[25:35] then help me load it in my car. And so I
[25:39] end up going on Craigslist cuz I'm like
[25:41] maybe I can get some help and get this
[25:43] done faster. And so I I look for um
[25:47] somebody who has floor care experience.
[25:49] Two people. I'm like, let me just get
[25:50] two people in case one doesn't show up.
[25:52] Told them where to meet me. I'm there.
[25:55] If you've ever tried to hire someone off
[25:57] of Craigslist, you probably know what
[25:58] happened. Nobody showed up. And so I go
[26:02] in and I was like, I guess I'm doing
[26:03] this myself. And about 7 hours, I got it
[26:06] done. It looked pretty good. And and I
[26:09] made about 900 bucks, 1,000 bucks for
[26:11] one day's work. And I leave that job and
[26:13] I thought to myself, I think there's
[26:15] something here.
[26:16] >> Yeah. Well, I I love this for a few
[26:18] reasons. First of all, um you know, you
[26:22] just gone bankrupt. You've got four kids
[26:24] at home. You went you were on, you know,
[26:27] you know, food stamps as you as you said
[26:30] in unemployment. You find a job. Um,
[26:33] start doing your day job, but you still
[26:36] know that you want to do something more.
[26:38] And so, you're spending your extra time
[26:41] to figure out a new business and to test
[26:44] it. you decide to sell something that
[26:47] you don't even know how to do yet, but
[26:48] you know that you're gonna find but you
[26:50] commit to finding a way to to making it
[26:52] work. Um, if you get a customer and you
[26:56] call, you know, 10 people, they all say
[26:58] no. And the 11th person, whatever, says
[27:01] says, "Sure. Um, I'm looking for this."
[27:04] And then
[27:06] >> you go and you figure out how to how to
[27:08] deliver.
[27:08] >> Pretty much it was actually 30 people on
[27:10] the list. So, I had 29 nos before I got
[27:13] to the first.
[27:14] >> 29 before you go to yes. So, um now and
[27:17] then you you see the spark. You know
[27:19] you're on to something because you've
[27:20] proven it that somebody's willing to pay
[27:22] you money for this. Um so, now walk me
[27:25] through the next 12 months. What does
[27:26] the next 12 months look like?
[27:28] >> Man, that that was tough. Like I got
[27:31] that immediate fruit from some effort.
[27:34] The next three months was crickets. I
[27:36] mean, I went on multiple walkthroughs. I
[27:39] I submitted bids. I I joined a
[27:42] mastermind to like learn more about the
[27:44] business and help keep me accountable
[27:46] with money I didn't have to spend. Um,
[27:49] and it is probably a solid 3 months of
[27:52] just hitting my head against the wall.
[27:53] And and I'm still working this temporary
[27:55] job that turned into a a what was
[27:59] looking like it was going to be a a
[28:01] long-term job, which only made me hate
[28:03] the job more. Because it's one thing
[28:07] when you go into it thinking it's
[28:08] temporary. I can just hold my breath
[28:10] till we're done. But when it turns into
[28:12] no, you can't leave it. It's it becomes
[28:15] almost impossible to to feel settled and
[28:17] stay. And that's kind of where where I
[28:18] was starting to feel what I was starting
[28:20] to feel. And um and I'm like 3 months
[28:24] into really getting no traction beyond
[28:27] that first job. And I'm about to quit
[28:30] honestly cuz it it felt like I was
[28:33] wasting my time going down a road that
[28:35] had nothing. Um all the while like I
[28:38] need to find a new place for my family
[28:39] to live and and we need to figure
[28:41] something out. And so I remember like
[28:43] driving down this road um and and just
[28:46] like throwing up this prayer like God,
[28:48] I'm going to throw in this towel. I
[28:50] don't think this is for me. I'm just
[28:51] going to go find another management job
[28:53] that that I can stomach more than this
[28:55] and I I'm think I'm going to quit. And
[28:57] it was a one of those passing just
[28:59] frustrated frustrated prayers, you know.
[29:03] And then and then next day I get a call
[29:05] from this 90,000 foot facility that I
[29:08] had talked to two weeks prior and they
[29:10] said, "No thanks." And so I'm like, "Uh,
[29:13] I see what's happening here." And they
[29:15] basically said, "We want you to come and
[29:17] give us a quote." And so I don't know
[29:19] why they decided to change their mind,
[29:22] but um that's the prayers a Monday, the
[29:25] call's a Tuesday. I get laid off from
[29:27] this job on Wednesday like out of the
[29:29] blue. No, no reason even given to me. I
[29:32] just I now lose the job that I hate but
[29:34] was helping bridge the gap. So now I
[29:37] feel pressure like I have never felt
[29:39] before. Thursday I go on the walkth
[29:42] through. Friday I bid on the job. I'm
[29:45] still going to work. I I didn't tell my
[29:47] wife I was laid off um because this
[29:49] would have been number two in nine
[29:51] months. And and it was funny. I I spent
[29:53] seven years succeeding in the corporate
[29:55] world, never having been fired my from a
[29:58] job in my life. And in 9 months, I got
[29:59] laid off of two jobs. And so it was a
[30:02] new experience even just for that. But
[30:05] um you know, my night and weekend job, I
[30:06] would leave home the normal time I I go
[30:09] to work and I would go find a cafe to
[30:11] just like work on this business that I
[30:13] was trying to to launch. you know,
[30:15] building a website, you know, creating
[30:17] copy for marketing, um, sharpening my
[30:20] proposals and just trying to prepare in
[30:23] every way I could for, you know, the the
[30:25] next proposal or the next opportunity.
[30:27] And so I do that all weekend and and I'm
[30:30] thinking to myself, if I don't hear back
[30:31] from this account Monday, like, I got to
[30:34] tell my wife and I got to figure
[30:35] something else out. Well, it's it's
[30:37] about lunchtime on that Monday and I get
[30:39] a call from this facility. The guy says,
[30:42] "John, um, we've decided to award you
[30:46] the account. You'll see the the email in
[30:48] your inbox shortly." And I hang up the
[30:50] phone and I'm like, "Yes, I did it." And
[30:53] what's crazy is that one job, it was 7
[30:56] days a week, 90,000t facility. It paid
[30:59] more per month than that part-time
[31:01] temporary or that temporary job I hated.
[31:04] And I was driving over an hour to get
[31:05] to. And this this facility, I could walk
[31:08] to it. And so it was a complete 180 in
[31:11] my personal situation and it was big
[31:14] enough that I was able to hire a team
[31:16] right away to do the cleaning so that I
[31:18] could find the next
[31:19] >> So what were the actual economics of
[31:20] that first contract?
[31:22] >> Yeah, it was uh um yeah, you'll never
[31:24] forget that one. It was $5,000 a month
[31:27] uh for 7 days a week of cleaning and and
[31:30] we were doing all kinds of stuff. I
[31:31] mean, we were pressure washing, auto
[31:34] scrubbing, doing daily um you daily
[31:37] janitorial maintenance and um and so I I
[31:40] ended up hiring uh three people that
[31:44] alternated shifts throughout the seven
[31:46] days. And then of course early on,
[31:48] you're still doing a lot of the stuff
[31:49] yourself. And so I would I would train
[31:52] people. I would stock the closets. I'
[31:54] I'd check on things and just create more
[31:57] efficient ways to do the stuff we were
[31:59] doing. And one thing I will say that
[32:01] that I I cultivated and I honed when I
[32:04] was still working in middle management
[32:06] was the approach of of how can I take
[32:09] repeatable tasks and and turn it into a
[32:12] process that I can then train somebody
[32:14] else to do so I'm not left with this
[32:16] laundry list of things to do every day.
[32:18] >> And I was able to do that really well in
[32:20] my job. And so I I kind of used that
[32:24] skill that I honed of step 1 2 3 4 let
[32:27] me train you on this and now you're
[32:29] doing that task and I took that into
[32:31] this business. Um and shortly you know
[32:34] kind of back to real estate I used that
[32:37] same approach in in uh finding analyzing
[32:41] and then putting offers on properties.
[32:43] The problem is that it worked way too
[32:45] well. I I before I had fully built out
[32:48] the the structure for supervising
[32:52] contractors and the moving parts of
[32:55] buying materials, supervising work and
[32:58] and then um checking on the work done. I
[33:01] I created this process in in Excel
[33:05] formulas, video trainings, and I gave it
[33:08] to virtual assistants and said, "Use my
[33:10] access to the MLS, plug these numbers in
[33:13] here, and then it would spit out my
[33:15] maximum allowable offers, and then
[33:17] here's the email to send to all these
[33:19] agents."
[33:19] >> So, you're basically too good at at um
[33:21] closing sales, but not good enough at
[33:23] delivering the the product. Way too
[33:25] good.
[33:26] >> You were sell you were selling selling
[33:27] too quickly. Um, but you went from zero
[33:30] to seven figures in about two and a half
[33:32] years. Walk me quickly through that
[33:34] process. Like what what does that um
[33:37] >> how how did that
[33:38] >> Sure. Sure. Like part of that part of
[33:41] why that was possible was because I took
[33:43] this very systemized processoriented
[33:46] approach to the cleaning. And so because
[33:48] I did that, it made it so that I didn't
[33:50] have to be there physically cleaning
[33:52] from literally the first account. And so
[33:55] I created a Google form checklist and
[33:58] and walk them through the building with
[34:00] pictures and everything so that I could
[34:03] train someone else and they have this
[34:05] like I I called it a supervisor in the
[34:07] pocket. And if they had a question, they
[34:09] would refer back to the thing I had
[34:11] created for them to know where things
[34:13] were, how to work through the space. And
[34:16] then I I put a couple other things in
[34:17] there to just help um me know that they
[34:20] had completed the work properly like um
[34:22] how to upload and create pictures of
[34:24] before and after and things like that.
[34:26] And so because I did that though and
[34:28] that was one example of many it allowed
[34:31] me to to not only train people that
[34:34] could do the cleaning but then train
[34:35] people on how to train other people. And
[34:38] so I I would say within the first four
[34:41] or five months um I started backing off
[34:44] from even training cleaners. And it was
[34:46] and and I was able to spend the bulk of
[34:48] my time finding new opportunities to bid
[34:51] um you know to put bids in for. And so a
[34:54] month later um I got another commercial
[34:56] account and then a month later another
[34:58] commercial account. And and I would say
[35:01] th those that first $100,000 of annual
[35:04] revenue is probably the hardest because
[35:06] you're fighting not just other people in
[35:08] the market and timing and you know all
[35:11] those things, but you're fighting your
[35:13] own um your own demons that that are
[35:17] trying to tell you that you're on the
[35:18] wrong path. You can't do this. And it's
[35:20] and once you pass like six figures in
[35:23] revenue that you generated by yourself,
[35:26] there's something that happens I think
[35:27] psychologically that's like I could do
[35:29] this.
[35:30] >> Yep.
[35:30] >> And so once that happened though, and I
[35:32] would say that probably took somewhere
[35:34] around 8 to n months to pass that
[35:37] number.
[35:38] >> How many contracts did you have at that
[35:39] point?
[35:40] >> That was about 10 that was about 10
[35:42] contracts. And the the amount per
[35:44] contract ranged from $500 a month to
[35:47] anywhere around 5,000 a month. Once that
[35:50] happened, it was like I I got a real
[35:51] business here. And and so the velocity
[35:55] you mentioned, escape velocity. From
[35:57] that point, it's almost like it
[35:58] compounded. And within a year, we went
[36:01] from from about a 100,000 a year to
[36:03] about 400,000 a year. And then really
[36:07] what what changed things forever uh co
[36:10] was interesting because it was both a
[36:13] blessing and a curse for my industry
[36:15] because cleaning cleanliness you know
[36:17] disinfecting things the awareness and
[36:20] the importance of it it rose
[36:21] dramatically as a result of co but also
[36:24] a lot of buildings were closed and so
[36:28] especially being in a Chicago market
[36:30] where they they were much more strict
[36:31] with that um Indiana was wasn't quite as
[36:35] much. We still got hit by some of that.
[36:38] And um once everything opened back up
[36:41] though, I I noticed that a a lot more
[36:44] calls were coming in than they used to.
[36:46] And so we really stayed about the same
[36:49] because we lost some that didn't come
[36:50] back after COVID for their own reasons.
[36:52] And then we got a bunch. So we stayed
[36:55] about the same between 4 or 500,000
[36:57] throughout that time. And um and then
[37:00] the next year I decided I was going to
[37:03] intentionally start going for business
[37:05] again. And I used that method I I used
[37:08] to get that first account and and we
[37:09] started cold calling. And and what's
[37:12] interesting is I um I realized that it
[37:14] wasn't going to be sustainable if I was
[37:16] having to call hundreds of of accounts a
[37:18] week. So I hired um I hired a contractor
[37:21] to do that. And within 2 months, um, we
[37:25] were we were getting walkthroughs every
[37:28] single week from that. And one of those
[37:30] walkthroughs ended up leading to a group
[37:34] account. So, we won that single account.
[37:36] They liked the work we did and they
[37:38] said, "Hey, we have 12 other buildings.
[37:40] Can you bid on those?" And of course, we
[37:42] said yes. So, while we're bidding on
[37:45] that, I get a request from another and
[37:47] that was a medical provider um in the
[37:49] area that had a bunch of buildings.
[37:51] While we're bidding on that, another
[37:54] large medical provider with about 10
[37:56] buildings reached out to us and said,
[37:58] "Can you bid on ours?" And so within six
[38:02] weeks, we went from about a $400
[38:04] $500,000 company to a million-doll
[38:07] company. And and so the it it forced
[38:10] growth in us very similar to how those
[38:12] initial contracts did, but now we had
[38:15] some systems in place. We had we had
[38:17] some team members in place and our our
[38:20] staff went from about 10 to 12 cleaners
[38:23] to um I want to say 35 during that time.
[38:28] Um and so there was some new processes I
[38:31] had to create to staff up that that
[38:34] quickly and then train people and then
[38:36] onboard them quickly. But what I've
[38:38] noticed is like when you have these
[38:40] these quantum leaps percentage-wise in
[38:42] your in your business, it forces a new
[38:45] kind of growth out of you that wasn't
[38:47] required in the last phase of your
[38:49] journey. Um, and so while it might feel
[38:53] um stressful at the time, it's actually
[38:56] really healthy for you because I
[38:58] wouldn't have learned how to strip and
[38:59] wax a floor had I not needed to learn to
[39:02] strip and wax a floor. Yeah,
[39:04] >> I wouldn't have learned how to create a
[39:07] repeatable, trainable, delegatable
[39:09] process for finding, training, and
[39:12] onboarding people had we not needed to
[39:14] to uh it was almost quadruple the size,
[39:17] but at a at a minimum um 3x the size of
[39:20] our team in a matter of 6 weeks. Um, and
[39:23] so after I did that though, it allowed
[39:25] me to hire someone else to now follow
[39:28] the process that I was forced to create
[39:30] for myself just to for my own sanity.
[39:34] Um, and still to this day, we still use
[39:36] that same exact process. Um, and then
[39:39] over the course of a couple of years, we
[39:40] we doubled our business again. Yeah, I
[39:43] think that being so processoriented from
[39:45] the beginning is a real lesson for a lot
[39:48] of people because I think that um you
[39:51] know the the reason why you were able to
[39:53] scale in this this business where I
[39:55] think a lot of other people aren't is is
[39:57] that process and I think a lot of people
[39:59] in cleaning probably get stuck doing too
[40:01] much of the work themselves and never
[40:04] level up by building a process that
[40:06] allows them to spend the time on running
[40:09] the business rather than working in it.
[40:11] >> For sure. And and I and there's lots of
[40:13] reasons why you can stay stuck doing
[40:15] what you're talking about. And and the
[40:17] excuse I hear a lot from other cleaning
[40:19] company owners, even people on my own
[40:21] team, and I have to I have to correct
[40:23] them, is that there's not enough good
[40:25] cleaners out there. Like you'll hear or
[40:27] or labor such an issue. You'll hear
[40:30] variations of that so often. And and I
[40:33] realized what we what we actually solve
[40:36] isn't cleaning cuz anybody can can mop.
[40:39] Anybody can sweep or take out trash.
[40:42] What what we actually solve is a
[40:44] staffing problem. If you can find,
[40:47] train, and supervise people, that is
[40:50] actually what you're hired to do.
[40:51] >> Yeah.
[40:52] >> It's so that they don't have to do that
[40:53] cuz they're not in the business of
[40:55] cleaning buildings. They're in the
[40:57] business of giving medical provision to
[41:01] people. They're in the business of
[41:02] manufacturing some product or or selling
[41:05] cars. and and so you're taking something
[41:08] that is not their core business off of
[41:10] their plate. And so when when I created
[41:14] that process for finding training and
[41:15] onboarding people, I I essentially
[41:18] solved the business because that then
[41:20] there was no resistance or hesitation to
[41:24] to grow, which you always kind of feel
[41:26] that you're about to put the pedal to
[41:28] the metal, but you're not sure if you're
[41:29] going to be able to get the cleaners you
[41:31] need to to handle that. So you let up.
[41:33] This is another lesson that in business
[41:35] it's it's important to understand the
[41:37] problem that you're solving. Yeah. Um or
[41:39] you know the reason that you're creating
[41:41] value and like how would you answer that
[41:42] in the cleaning business? I think you
[41:44] just did but I want you but how would
[41:45] you answer that for cleaning?
[41:47] >> For sure. Um it it is the first problem
[41:50] you're you're you're solving is is how
[41:53] do I find train and onboard people
[41:56] quickly and efficiently and well and
[41:59] then the I I say the other side of that
[42:01] coin is how do I now lead them well so
[42:04] that the the promises we are we're
[42:07] making to our clients we can actually
[42:09] fulfill on and I would say that is where
[42:11] our business is at right now. Um I
[42:13] there's always issues at times in
[42:16] various ways u um of like the people you
[42:19] need and and the quality of the people
[42:21] and all that. The process largely solves
[42:24] that. I'd say it gets us 80% of the way.
[42:26] There's other things there's always the
[42:28] 8020 rule. There's always other things
[42:30] you have to do to complement the core
[42:32] thing, but the core thing solved. The
[42:35] the other side of that though is how do
[42:38] we lead people well so that they they
[42:41] deliver a consistent service now because
[42:43] we've trained them on this but are they
[42:45] doing what we train them to do
[42:46] consistently and and do we find out in
[42:49] time that they didn't so that we can
[42:52] make adjustments before the client knows
[42:54] >> and so we're very much in the throws of
[42:56] that now and and I think we're forced
[42:59] into that because of some losses we've
[43:00] taken these last few years that I think
[43:02] were avoidable. So let's talk about the
[43:04] state of your business today. You
[43:05] started the business in 2018. So you've
[43:07] been in it for seven or eight years. How
[43:10] much revenue did you do in 2025?
[43:12] >> 2.4.
[43:14] >> So 2.4 million. So um so you went from
[43:17] from you know bankrupt to um 2.4 million
[43:21] of revenue in 7 years. And roughly what
[43:24] do you take home of that 2.4 million?
[43:26] >> The net um when you put admax back in is
[43:29] uh 610.
[43:31] So you're operating at about 20% 26%
[43:35] >> 26% net margins which is very healthy.
[43:36] So that that's a good um that's about
[43:39] what I would expect I would imagine in a
[43:41] in a business of that of that size. So
[43:43] how many employees do you have?
[43:44] >> Um it fluctuates but it's between 50 and
[43:47] 60 when you consider support staff and
[43:49] then all the cleaning staff
[43:51] >> and on the cleaning side you're mostly
[43:53] 1099ing on these are they're all too.
[43:55] Yeah, there there's one 1099 person that
[43:58] we uh employ for some periodic jobs or
[44:01] like project work, but all of our
[44:03] recurring business is W2. And
[44:05] >> so you mentioned a couple of losses in
[44:06] the last couple of years. Like what what
[44:08] is like if you did 2.4 million in 2025,
[44:11] what did 23 24 look like? How has it
[44:14] shifted?
[44:15] >> Yeah, so it's interesting the if we
[44:17] hadn't taken the losses we took in 23
[44:19] through 25, we'd probably be closer to a
[44:21] $5 million company, um to be honest. And
[44:25] and I I realized the second time that we
[44:28] we took on some losses
[44:30] and the reasons are usually
[44:32] >> when you say a loss, let's let's define
[44:34] what that means for you.
[44:35] >> You lose an account because somebody
[44:37] cancels your their contract with
[44:39] >> because you're really in a subscription
[44:40] business at the end of the day and and
[44:42] like retention retention is a big
[44:46] >> big part of your game.
[44:47] >> Yeah. A big part of it. And and there's
[44:49] accounts we've had for years and years
[44:51] and then there's some that don't last
[44:53] more than a year and and you look at why
[44:56] did this happen? Was this avoidable? Um
[44:59] what could we do differently moving
[45:00] forward?
[45:01] >> And and honestly some of the losses u
[45:04] and there's been more, you know, more
[45:06] times than I'd like to to I care to
[45:08] admit where we we've we've lost a
[45:10] significant percentage of our revenue
[45:12] because of a cancellation. And sometimes
[45:15] it had nothing to do with the service we
[45:17] gave. it had to do with their
[45:19] circumstances. Um, other times it was
[45:22] 100% our fault and and we just failed
[45:25] them. And so you you have to try to
[45:27] determine which is which and was there
[45:29] anything you could have done? And if the
[45:31] answer is yes and and looking back, I
[45:34] would say we had healthy margins last
[45:36] year. I think they were too healthy to
[45:38] be honest. I don't think we had enough
[45:40] support staff to supervise the flow of
[45:44] information, the quality of the work, um
[45:47] things along those lines. And and we
[45:50] we're very low on the overhead, the
[45:53] fixed asset overhead side of things.
[45:54] Like we don't have a physical office. We
[45:56] have storage units for things. We do all
[45:59] of our meetings virtually. We have a
[46:00] very small fleet of cars. We try not to
[46:03] take on that kind of expense because we
[46:06] know labor is going to be our highest
[46:07] expense. And then we need to support
[46:09] that labor. And this year, the pivot we
[46:12] made kind of in response to some of the
[46:14] losses that we had last year, which was
[46:16] roughly 10%. Um, is is that we're
[46:19] reinvesting a lot of those profits into
[46:22] support staff that we haven't had in the
[46:23] past.
[46:24] >> Yeah. So, you did 2.4 million in in
[46:26] 2025. Like, if I'm looking out 10 years
[46:28] from now, what does success look like
[46:30] for John and for your business?
[46:33] >> Sure. In 10 years, I I I honestly would
[46:37] love to be knocking on the door of 50
[46:39] million a year.
[46:40] >> Wow.
[46:40] >> And I know I'm going to have to think
[46:42] differently to get there because you're
[46:44] not going to do it one account at a
[46:45] time. You're going to have to find
[46:46] effort that has um higher leverage and
[46:49] ability to fold um effort over, which
[46:52] I'm I'm hoping that you can provide some
[46:54] insight on on approaches to that. And
[46:57] one of the things that I I looked at in
[47:00] late 23 and I spend most of 24 trying to
[47:04] find um success here. But I realized if
[47:08] all of my effort is to just get another
[47:11] account, I will grow and I have. It's
[47:13] how we've gotten to where we are. But
[47:14] it's going to be very slow growth. And I
[47:17] was looking for something that that more
[47:19] was was not adding but multiplying our
[47:21] efforts. And so I thought of maybe I can
[47:24] buy smaller cleaning companies and that
[47:28] could help me enter a new market or that
[47:30] could just help me compound my efforts
[47:33] into into greater growth.
[47:34] >> Well, I guess before you even think
[47:37] about that, like what is keeping you
[47:40] from growing today?
[47:43] Like you know, I'm guessing like two 2.4
[47:46] four to to 50 over um you know 10 years
[47:50] is probably something like 40% if I just
[47:52] had to number I'd just doing you know
[47:55] 40% a year year type type growth I mean
[47:58] it would be a healthy a healthy growth
[47:59] rate
[48:00] >> so um
[48:02] >> you know what's keeping you from doing
[48:04] that today
[48:05] >> I think the strategy we've been
[48:07] employing to grow won't get us there
[48:09] like we'll we'll need a new growth
[48:11] strategy um because we I don't think
[48:13] we'll get to 50 million in 10 years, one
[48:17] account at a time. I think it it'll have
[48:19] to probably be done a little
[48:21] differently.
[48:21] >> Yeah. Let's think about the system to
[48:23] get you there, though, right? I mean,
[48:24] like you're you're a guy who likes to
[48:25] think in systems. I think that's that's
[48:26] the healthy way to think about it.
[48:28] >> Um, you know,
[48:31] you know, what is your strategy for
[48:33] acquiring customers today? What does
[48:35] that look like?
[48:35] >> Sure. Um, I would say the first lever I
[48:38] needed to pull, which I did last year,
[48:40] and we've seen some some good success
[48:42] from it, is I had to replace myself as
[48:45] the rain maker. I couldn't be the only
[48:47] person working leads, selling accounts,
[48:50] um, and and bringing in new business.
[48:53] And unlike the residential cleaning
[48:55] space, there aren't leads every day in a
[48:58] in a single market for janitorial that
[49:01] are worth working. Um, because typically
[49:04] that that's done in cycles. they're
[49:06] reviewing their budget, they're looking
[49:08] at options, they're making decisions
[49:10] around then or there's like a a huge
[49:13] service failure and they have to part
[49:15] ways with their and and
[49:16] >> so it's a long sales cycle is what
[49:18] you're saying.
[49:19] >> Yeah. And and so um I hesitated to hire
[49:22] salespeople early on which I think was a
[49:25] smart move because they wouldn't even
[49:27] have a full week of submitting bids in
[49:30] most cases. Um whereas in in residential
[49:33] and I I have more than a few uh friends
[49:36] who who own residential cleaning
[49:37] companies, they're getting dozens of
[49:39] leads a day because there's thousands of
[49:41] homes in their market,
[49:42] >> but their average order value is much
[49:44] lower and their probably retention rate
[49:46] is much lower.
[49:47] >> Yep, it is. Um and I and I realized too
[49:50] like even from my first uh recurring
[49:52] account, one decent commercial cleaning
[49:55] account can represent 20 houses very
[49:58] easily. So I I I saw that was the route
[50:00] for me. But um last year I ended up
[50:04] similar um to the the staffing side of
[50:07] things. I created and refined a process
[50:10] for for working leads and and submitting
[50:13] bids and presenting. And so I was able
[50:16] to to transition someone to a role that
[50:19] I call cleaning consultant. and they
[50:21] basically do all of the boots boots on
[50:23] the ground now of meeting with with
[50:25] clients who are ready for walkthroughs
[50:27] and presenting proposals. Um, and I'm
[50:30] more in just the review and and checking
[50:32] phase of things now. And so she started
[50:35] with us last year, late last year, and
[50:38] and has already brought in six figures
[50:40] of of annual revenue doing that. Yeah.
[50:43] But you say, so okay, you think think
[50:45] through that like how many like let's
[50:48] say you wanted to grow 50% a year. Um
[50:51] you know do you have do you know how
[50:54] many contracts on average that is and
[50:58] you know how many you need to be closing
[51:00] a week and like what the sales
[51:02] infrastructure it would take for you to
[51:04] actually do that.
[51:05] >> Uh sales infrastructure. No. Um I I do
[51:09] know that um part of you know part of
[51:13] making something like that happen we'd
[51:16] have to we'd have to be selling because
[51:18] the the average uh commercial cleaning
[51:21] account is about 2500 a month. Um and so
[51:24] you're looking at roughly 25,000 to
[51:26] 30,000 a year for I I would say an
[51:29] average commercial cleaning account. And
[51:31] that's if you're not being too picky.
[51:32] Um, I know some uh commercial cleaning
[51:34] companies that they won't take anything
[51:36] less than 50 to 75,000 a year on an
[51:39] account. Some some are even more. I'm
[51:42] not quite as picky as that. Um, I am
[51:45] okay with something that's
[51:46] >> but that means you need that means you
[51:48] need to be closing um you know 50 to 60
[51:51] accounts this year to basically
[51:54] >> to to have that kind of growth. Yeah.
[51:57] Which is no small task especially not in
[52:00] a single market. And so so what would it
[52:02] take?
[52:03] >> I think it would it would take opening
[52:06] another um another area so that you
[52:10] right now we're in northwest Indiana. Um
[52:14] I think it would be near impossible to
[52:15] have that many accounts in just that
[52:18] area. So I think
[52:20] >> geographically is the
[52:21] >> new geographical area um where where we
[52:25] can multiply the efforts that way
[52:28] geographically.
[52:29] Um, and and so right now what I what I'm
[52:33] doing is is I'm testing and proving that
[52:35] the model I have here works on the sales
[52:37] side and and once I'm once I'm convinced
[52:40] that it works through someone else who
[52:42] isn't me, then I can replicate that
[52:45] elsewhere. Um, and so I kind of come off
[52:48] of trying to acquire companies cuz I did
[52:50] realize too in that process that
[52:53] um, as I'm analyzing these other deals
[52:56] and there were hundreds of companies I
[52:57] looked at over the course of 18 months
[52:59] and and I spent a lot of money on
[53:01] consultants and education uh, learning
[53:04] how to evaluate u deals, how to close
[53:07] them um, all of that. It it highlighted
[53:10] something about my own business and and
[53:13] how unsellable I was and my own
[53:16] business. And so it was almost like what
[53:19] makes your business unsellable?
[53:21] >> Well, I think the fact like initially
[53:23] like it was it was the fact that I was
[53:25] the the only person who was truly
[53:27] closing sales. Um and nobody wants to
[53:30] buy a job. And so I realized
[53:34] >> I need to clean things out.
[53:36] >> Most cleaning companies are just jobs.
[53:38] >> Yeah. And I think because I was ahead of
[53:40] a lot of other cleaning company owners,
[53:43] I felt like I was further than I
[53:44] actually was. Um, but when I when I had
[53:48] to look at it from the vantage point of
[53:49] someone from the outside looking at my
[53:51] business and evaluating it as an asset,
[53:55] um, there were some things I needed to
[53:57] improve before I I got to that place.
[54:00] And so in a weird way, me trying to buy
[54:04] and evaluating all these other
[54:05] businesses caused me to indirectly
[54:08] evaluate my own business. And then it
[54:10] led me over the past year specifically
[54:12] to start making some real changes on how
[54:15] we were doing certain things and how we
[54:17] were structured. So not only
[54:19] >> what were the biggest changes that you
[54:21] made?
[54:21] >> Well, one was replacing myself. That was
[54:23] the biggest one. So sales are now
[54:25] happening and I'm I'm not really
[54:27] involved in the process. um nowhere I
[54:29] mean very l little about amount of
[54:32] involvement. Um, and then the other
[54:35] piece was on on the support side,
[54:37] reinvesting some of the profits and re
[54:40] we we really restructured our our
[54:44] management and support team this year in
[54:46] 2026 to help us avoid some of the
[54:49] inconsistencies on fulfillment that that
[54:52] I think we have had a hard time
[54:54] avoiding, especially as you grow. um the
[54:58] all it does is it it puts more stress on
[55:01] things that are not reinforced. And so I
[55:04] think we experienced some of that last
[55:05] year. We grew a ton. I mean we in in 24
[55:08] 25 we had a lot of growth and even
[55:11] though we were bigger than we had ever
[55:13] been um when we experienced that amount
[55:15] of growth that that quickly it it's
[55:18] going to expose you and expose where
[55:19] you're weak and it did and that was what
[55:21] it highlighted. And so those are the two
[55:23] biggest things. And and one thing I I
[55:26] I've had to learn the hard way is you
[55:28] don't want to hire um somebody like an
[55:30] operations manager as like this bucket
[55:32] of I'm just going to throw everything I
[55:34] don't want to do in that bucket and you
[55:36] got to do that. And I I have taken that
[55:38] approach. Um I I have found it's not
[55:41] sustainable.
[55:41] >> So what's the correct approach? The
[55:43] correct approach is to take that role um
[55:46] that that very v that varied role with
[55:50] many different hats, identify the
[55:53] specific hats they're wearing, and then
[55:55] each of those hats are are a role in and
[55:57] of themselves. Even if it's a part-time
[55:59] role, then just hire a part-time person
[56:01] for that for that thing. And so that's
[56:04] basically what we did. And at the at the
[56:06] end of the day, what what most
[56:08] companies, I think, in my industry are
[56:09] trying to have an operations manager do
[56:11] is manage the schedule, make sure all of
[56:14] the supplies and equipment that need to
[56:17] be on site for the the company to do
[56:19] their job are there. Um, audit the the
[56:22] work being done and report on the audits
[56:24] and train the people. And if and if all
[56:28] of those things are done, in theory,
[56:30] you're going to have a really well-run
[56:32] machine. The problem is is if you have
[56:34] dozens and dozens of accounts over the
[56:37] over, you know, multiple counties, you
[56:39] know, one person is going to have a very
[56:41] hard time doing something like that.
[56:42] >> The way I think about it and where I I
[56:44] think that a lot of entrepreneurs fail
[56:46] is that it's your job as the
[56:48] entrepreneur to create a system that
[56:50] does each of those things that then you
[56:52] can hire an operations manager to manage
[56:54] those systems. But it's but you're the
[56:56] one that has to has to put in place the
[56:58] system that makes each of those pieces
[57:01] happen.
[57:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I I definitely agree
[57:03] with that. Um and and I I kind of took
[57:06] it just a a step further and I was like,
[57:09] what if what if these individual systems
[57:11] were were owned by an individual? And so
[57:14] even if we lost a a person, it was one
[57:17] of the functions, not all of them, that
[57:19] are now need needing to be replaced with
[57:21] somebody. And I think that was the risk
[57:24] I felt when one person was over so many
[57:28] things was what I was I think trying to
[57:30] address with this. And so now we
[57:33] actually have that there's someone who
[57:34] their job is just to train people and we
[57:37] put every single new hire to them and
[57:40] they have to train them for multiple
[57:41] days before they get put on the
[57:43] schedule. We actually just have auler
[57:45] now. We we actually have a QA team and
[57:49] all they do is check locations all night
[57:51] long and fix things here and there. And
[57:54] so I I essentially replaced a one
[57:57] operations manager who was managing
[58:01] various systems that were some
[58:03] underbuilt, some not built, some built
[58:04] out um with and what what was
[58:07] interesting is when you have a specific
[58:11] hat that you're having somebody wear and
[58:12] that's the only hat, it at least for me,
[58:15] it forced me to to refine that system
[58:18] because I wasn't just expecting them to
[58:20] figure it out. this is exactly what I
[58:23] need from you in this area and this is
[58:25] what success looks like. This is what
[58:27] failure looks like.
[58:27] >> Yeah, you have to define it. Um, so I
[58:30] want to get I want to get back to Okay,
[58:31] you're at 2.4 million. You got a big
[58:33] goal, 50 million in 10 years. Um, which
[58:36] you know, let's say that would put you
[58:38] at making $10 million a year. Um, which
[58:41] is a lot of money, big ambitious goal.
[58:43] Um, how are we actually going to get
[58:44] there? What are we actually going to do?
[58:46] I've heard a lot of ideas, a lot of
[58:47] plans, but like what's what's the actual
[58:50] playbook?
[58:50] >> Yeah. So I I think the the playbook
[58:52] right now is to take what we've done
[58:54] here and we're going to replicate it
[58:57] within 2 hours of our current operations
[59:00] and there's a few cities that I have in
[59:01] mind, a few areas I have in mind to
[59:03] replicate that and then once that
[59:05] happens.
[59:06] >> So what does it require you to to
[59:08] replicate it? Like what act what steps
[59:10] are you going to have to take to
[59:11] actually do that?
[59:12] >> It's a great question. Um I don't think
[59:14] that I've fully thought through that
[59:15] part of it
[59:16] >> to be honest. I can tell.
[59:18] >> Yeah.
[59:19] Um let's let's talk through it. So like
[59:22] like what um
[59:24] >> you know I'm guessing this is this is
[59:26] aspirational right now. We have we don't
[59:28] we haven't actually started we haven't
[59:29] actually started expanding it.
[59:30] >> No.
[59:31] >> Um so
[59:33] >> you know what um a year from now if
[59:36] we're having this discussion um you know
[59:38] what have you done what have you done
[59:40] this year to be closer to that goal?
[59:43] >> What are the what are the actual steps
[59:44] you're going to take? Well, um I would
[59:47] say I need to identify the first area
[59:49] I'm going to replicate what we've done
[59:51] here. Like I need to decide.
[59:53] >> You haven't decided where yet?
[59:55] >> There's three cities I have in mind, but
[59:57] I haven't uh
[59:57] >> So, what's the what's the algorithm in
[01:00:00] your head that that's that that that
[01:00:02] that's going to make you choose? Um, I
[01:00:06] want I want to say um besides the three
[01:00:10] like decide between the three areas that
[01:00:12] I have in mind, what what's the the what
[01:00:15] is it that's going to make me decide one
[01:00:17] over the other? Is that that what you're
[01:00:19] asking?
[01:00:20] >> Well, I mean, let's even take a little
[01:00:21] bit of a step back. You know, um, seven
[01:00:24] years ago, you started this. Um, how did
[01:00:27] you start it? you sold something that
[01:00:30] you had no idea even how you were going
[01:00:32] to deliver the product. Yeah.
[01:00:34] >> And yet we're sitting here today and you
[01:00:37] don't know how to take the first step on
[01:00:39] trying a market to enter into. Um, you
[01:00:44] know, would it not be perhaps as simple
[01:00:46] as having your salesperson and their
[01:00:50] excess time, which it sounds like they
[01:00:51] have, start trying to sell in a
[01:00:54] neighboring
[01:00:55] >> area and then um, you know, once you
[01:00:58] actually get a contract figuring out how
[01:01:00] you're going to deliver it, would that
[01:01:01] not work? you know, as as you were
[01:01:03] highlighting that um when I was
[01:01:05] initially telling that story, the
[01:01:07] thought that came to my mind, even when
[01:01:09] I talked about when we got those two
[01:01:11] huge medical accounts, I didn't know how
[01:01:13] I was going to fulfill on that.
[01:01:15] >> Um I I've seen a common thread that
[01:01:19] >> when I just make a decision and commit
[01:01:21] to something, then I end up figuring it
[01:01:24] out.
[01:01:25] >> Do you think
[01:01:25] >> that's part of the equation? And I think
[01:01:27] >> do you think maybe that now you're
[01:01:28] making 600 grand a year and you're um
[01:01:33] you know fat and happy and also a little
[01:01:35] bit scared of screwing it up?
[01:01:37] >> Of course. Of course.
[01:01:39] >> How much of a driver do you think that
[01:01:41] is?
[01:01:41] >> Well, I think it's part of like um
[01:01:44] realizing like when you've reached a a
[01:01:46] new level you haven't been to before,
[01:01:49] it's what is the want to to keep going?
[01:01:52] >> Yeah. So, what is the younger?
[01:01:54] >> So, what what what is the want to? I
[01:01:56] mean, it's like, um, so you put out a
[01:01:59] number of $50 million in 10 years. Where
[01:02:01] does that come from? Like, why? Like,
[01:02:03] you know, why is that important to you?
[01:02:05] It's kind of shallow, but um there's
[01:02:09] actually a guy I met who's also named
[01:02:12] John Torres and also started in the
[01:02:14] cleaning industry. He lives in Florida.
[01:02:17] Um he does a different business now, but
[01:02:19] his his company is at 50 million a year.
[01:02:23] And I was part of a we'll call it a
[01:02:26] mastermind of people who introduced me
[01:02:28] to him. And there were people in that
[01:02:30] mastermind who said you could totally be
[01:02:33] like him when they saw me.
[01:02:34] >> You know interact with one of the worst
[01:02:36] mistakes people make in my opinion is
[01:02:38] >> what is it?
[01:02:39] >> Trying to chase somebody else's dream.
[01:02:41] You're never going to get out of bed for
[01:02:43] somebody else's dream. You got to figure
[01:02:44] out what your what this John Torres's
[01:02:47] dream is.
[01:02:47] >> Yeah.
[01:02:48] >> And rarely is it going to be attached to
[01:02:50] money or a number. Sure.
[01:02:52] >> It's got to be it's got to mean it's got
[01:02:53] to mean something deeper for you. Like
[01:02:55] like what is it that you're really
[01:02:57] working for?
[01:02:58] >> I think that's probably where I need to
[01:02:59] start then is is defining and and to be
[01:03:03] honest like when I started the company
[01:03:06] that I'm that I have now, it's it was
[01:03:08] out of survival cuz things were
[01:03:11] >> were going through the wall. You had no
[01:03:13] choice.
[01:03:13] >> And so it it kind of forced me into a
[01:03:15] certain kind of action that led
[01:03:17] somewhere. And and so the initial goal,
[01:03:19] I mean, I I could probably recite it. It
[01:03:21] was it was essentially to have enough
[01:03:24] time and financial freedom to do the
[01:03:26] things that were life-giving to me with
[01:03:28] my family, like coaching my son in
[01:03:30] baseball or,
[01:03:31] >> you know, taking my kids somewhere. And
[01:03:33] I have that now. I've had it for a
[01:03:34] couple years.
[01:03:35] >> And so it is wonderful. I mean, which is
[01:03:37] which is which is a huge huge win and a
[01:03:40] huge blessing. I mean, um, and and it's
[01:03:42] not easy. I have found though like even
[01:03:46] I I remember being on walks in the last
[01:03:48] couple years around you know my my
[01:03:51] neighborhood and and just thinking to
[01:03:53] myself
[01:03:54] I've actually surpassed all the goals
[01:03:56] that I had when I first started this
[01:03:58] company. Like what now? Because it I
[01:04:02] don't I can't say that I feel a lot
[01:04:04] different than I did when I was starting
[01:04:06] this other than just some of the
[01:04:08] financial and time relief that I have
[01:04:09] now. But people people always um
[01:04:12] underestimate what they can achieve and
[01:04:14] and and when when you get those when you
[01:04:17] when you aim too low and you get there
[01:04:19] it can be very dangerous.
[01:04:22] >> Yeah. What what motivated you when you
[01:04:25] know when you left um high finance and
[01:04:28] then you started this company? um what
[01:04:32] what was the motivating factor for you?
[01:04:35] Cuz obviously finances weren't uh an
[01:04:37] issue for you compared to the average,
[01:04:40] you know, person uh based on what I've
[01:04:42] heard you you made at the time. Um so
[01:04:45] why start a manufacturing business when
[01:04:49] when you were in that situation? What
[01:04:51] was your motivation? I mean, I think I
[01:04:53] look at the world quite differently
[01:04:54] maybe than than than you or perhaps some
[01:04:58] others, but um you know, my biggest fear
[01:05:01] in life is um being on my deathbed and
[01:05:06] um you know, thinking, "Wow, I think I
[01:05:10] could have done so much more if I if id
[01:05:12] only tried or if only put my energy into
[01:05:15] it." Um, and for me it's like the the
[01:05:18] fear of omission or the fear of things
[01:05:20] that I um, you know, didn't try because
[01:05:23] I was scared. Um, or you know, the
[01:05:26] impact I could have had, but um, I was
[01:05:29] maybe too comfortable or too lazy.
[01:05:32] >> Um, you know, I know that those are the
[01:05:34] things that will haunt me.
[01:05:36] >> Um, and so, you know, I wake up every
[01:05:38] day doing my best to avoid that feeling
[01:05:42] in that moment.
[01:05:43] >> Yeah. And um you know I think that you
[01:05:47] know when you when you real you realize
[01:05:49] that um you know this is a game that
[01:05:53] never ends like there is no end point.
[01:05:55] That's why getting to some number um is
[01:05:57] a um is a bad goal in my opinion because
[01:06:01] what happens when you get there? Is your
[01:06:03] life over? Like you're just going to um
[01:06:05] you know like no it's going to it keeps
[01:06:07] going. And so for me, it's about um you
[01:06:10] know, always chasing the endless horizon
[01:06:12] and and always improving and and
[01:06:14] challenging myself and and seeing what
[01:06:16] I'm capable of and how big of an impact
[01:06:19] I can have. Um and you know, so that
[01:06:22] that's what drives me. But I think
[01:06:24] ultimately um you know, you need to
[01:06:27] figure out what that looks like for you.
[01:06:29] Um and it's not and it's not going to be
[01:06:31] wrapped like the um money in and of
[01:06:33] itself is just a tool um that you know
[01:06:36] allows you know certain leverage certain
[01:06:39] impact um and it's important. tastes
[01:06:41] like oxygen, but um like you know it if
[01:06:44] you don't have it um as as you've as
[01:06:46] you've learned um
[01:06:48] >> but you know
[01:06:50] >> to to really achieve anything meaningful
[01:06:53] um you're going to have to have an
[01:06:54] emotional connection is it can't be a a
[01:06:56] kind of a rational money connection.
[01:06:59] >> Yeah. And I guess that number it felt
[01:07:01] like something that would stretch and
[01:07:03] challenge me. Um and so
[01:07:05] >> but it doesn't excite you. I can tell it
[01:07:08] doesn't excite you because you haven't
[01:07:09] even like um when you had to take
[01:07:12] action, you go out and take action. Now
[01:07:14] you don't have to. Um and if you're
[01:07:16] really emotionally attached to
[01:07:18] something, then you have to do it. You
[01:07:20] don't have a choice.
[01:07:21] >> Yeah.
[01:07:21] >> And so you need something that you're
[01:07:23] excited enough about that you don't have
[01:07:25] a choice but to go out and take that
[01:07:26] action.
[01:07:27] >> Yeah.
[01:07:27] >> That's what you're lacking.
[01:07:29] >> Yeah, I could see that. So, I need to
[01:07:31] just put myself in a situation where I'm
[01:07:33] forced to
[01:07:33] >> Well, you don't need to do anything. You
[01:07:35] don't need to do anything. And that's
[01:07:36] the beauty. I mean, like, you're in a
[01:07:37] place where you don't need to do
[01:07:39] anything. But, um, you know, I think
[01:07:42] having an empty an empty goal is only
[01:07:45] going to set yourself up for failure
[01:07:46] because you're never going to get there
[01:07:48] because you don't you're not emotionally
[01:07:50] attached to it.
[01:07:51] >> Yeah, that makes sense.
[01:07:53] >> And and and and there's no you're much
[01:07:56] better off being honest with yourself
[01:07:57] rather than chasing an empty goal.
[01:08:00] Yeah, it's good feedback.
[01:08:02] >> We can still end it there, but I guess
[01:08:03] the question my question for you is, you
[01:08:05] know, what what what would you like like
[01:08:09] is there anything that you would like to
[01:08:10] address or that you would like to talk
[01:08:12] about or talk through relating to your
[01:08:14] business cuz you're you're absolutely in
[01:08:15] a place where you you you can scale. Um,
[01:08:18] but you know, you also don't have to and
[01:08:22] you know, feeling like you have to is is
[01:08:25] I think also a trap.
[01:08:27] I do think like part of how you
[01:08:30] described um
[01:08:32] you don't you don't want to be at the
[01:08:34] end of your life and know you could have
[01:08:36] given more. Um there is some of that in
[01:08:39] me and although I haven't articulated it
[01:08:42] for myself fully, I do feel like
[01:08:46] I have potential to build something um
[01:08:52] more even more meaningful. you have the
[01:08:54] petition and I want to tap into it. I I
[01:08:57] don't want I don't want to leave an
[01:09:01] example for my kids or be at the end of
[01:09:04] my life and be like, man, I I I I let up
[01:09:07] before I saw what like what I was fully
[01:09:10] capable of doing. Um, and so I I do
[01:09:13] wrestle with that a bit because uh I I
[01:09:16] find that that I am I am pretty
[01:09:18] ambitious in in general and and I
[01:09:21] wrestle with this idea of I I don't h I
[01:09:25] don't have to anymore, but I I know I
[01:09:28] have more to give. And so I mean right
[01:09:31] now like what I've done with that energy
[01:09:34] and that tension um besides some of the
[01:09:37] the business things where where I'm just
[01:09:40] fine-tuning things and and making sure
[01:09:42] that it's a stronger business. Um you
[01:09:44] know I I started a YouTube channel this
[01:09:47] year and and part of why I did that was
[01:09:50] to keep me accountable to not be
[01:09:52] complacent. And it's because if um like
[01:09:56] two things. One, when you're having to
[01:09:58] to teach something or share lessons
[01:09:59] you're learning on a journey um you
[01:10:02] learn them deeper.
[01:10:04] >> Yeah.
[01:10:04] >> And so you you you get away from the
[01:10:06] surface. If I have to actually explain
[01:10:07] this to somebody else, I need to
[01:10:09] understand this a little bit more. Um
[01:10:11] which has been healthy for me over the
[01:10:12] years being in that environment. The
[01:10:14] other thing is um to keep me accountable
[01:10:17] to just keep growing. You know, I've
[01:10:19] I've heard the you know, I've heard the
[01:10:21] sentiment in various ways that, you
[01:10:22] know, if you stop growing, you start
[01:10:24] dying.
[01:10:25] >> I absolutely agree with you. I just
[01:10:26] think that the problem that I think you
[01:10:29] need that that you need just ultimately
[01:10:30] to answer is that um you need to to to
[01:10:36] really want
[01:10:39] whatever it is that you're chasing like
[01:10:40] be emotionally in invest invested in it.
[01:10:43] And you know, I think that you also need
[01:10:45] to accept that, you know, the cleaning
[01:10:48] can be your vessel for that. It
[01:10:49] absolutely can be. Um, but it's it's
[01:10:52] okay if you choose that it's really
[01:10:55] something else. I mean, and that can
[01:10:57] look like it can have nothing to do with
[01:11:00] business. It can be completely something
[01:11:01] unrelated. It can be anything, but but
[01:11:03] it's got to be something that you're
[01:11:05] really excited about.
[01:11:06] >> Yeah. Um, and you know, I I just think
[01:11:09] that's where you need to be honest with
[01:11:11] yourself about, you know, what it is
[01:11:13] that you really
[01:11:15] enjoy.
[01:11:16] >> Yeah.
[01:11:17] >> Um, and because that's where that's
[01:11:20] where you're going to find the most
[01:11:20] success and happiness ultimately.
[01:11:22] >> For sure.
[01:11:23] >> Yeah, that's fair.
[01:11:24] >> And I think that that's the, you know,
[01:11:26] that's the trick.
[01:11:27] >> I like it. Thank you.
[01:11:29] >> So, John, thank you so much. Uh really
[01:11:31] appreciate it.