The 14 Rules of Discernment by St. Ignatius of Loyola (with Fr. Timothy Gallagher)

Full Transcript

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhBDA49xD-s

[00:01] Hello everybody.
[00:04] I am thrilled to have on our show today Father Timothy Gallagher.
[00:09] He is in town teaching our Theology of the Body and the Interior Life course.
[00:14] And I snagged him to come over here to the studio today so that we could have a conversation so that we could expose his beautiful work to our YouTube audience.
[00:24] Father Timothy Gallagher, such a gift to have you on the show today.
[00:26] Really happy to be here.
[00:27] Thank you.
[00:29] Thanks so much for all that you do.
[00:31] You have blessed so many of our students over the years here at the Theology of the Body Institute.
[00:35] We were trying to figure out the other day if this is your fourth or fifth time you've taught this course.
[00:39] Doesn't matter, but every time it's sold out.
[00:42] People love what you bring to the table.
[00:45] I have a few of your books here.
[00:47] The first book that I was introduced to of your work was the Discernment of Spirits, and this is what you're really known for.
[00:53] You take what I do with John Paul II, taking his Theology of the Body and making it accessible to the normal person in the
[01:01] accessible to the normal person in the pew.
[01:04] This is what you've done with Ignatius of Loyola.
[01:06] You have probably more than anybody, certainly in the United States, you have made the person in the pew aware of the great gift and heritage we have from Saint Ignatius of Loyola and the Discernment of Spirits.
[01:20] Can you speak just into that for our audience who may not know, what is the Discernment of Spirits?
[01:26] Why is this important for our Christian lives?
[01:30] You know, kind of the funny thing is that I was just trying to teach this as clearly as I could in simple retreat talks.
[01:37] I didn't know I was developing what became a pedagogy that I think really does what you've said, and that is hitherto you would think of Discernment of Spirits as an attractive but somewhat mysterious term.
[01:49] And you'd think of maybe a Jesuit retreat master somewhere in a retreat center.
[01:53] But you wouldn't think that this is part of my daily life, you know, daily life as a Catholic as I live my Christian faith.
[02:00] So, what discernment of spirits really
[02:02] So, what discernment of spirits really is, it's about the daily spiritual experience that everyone goes through.
[02:08] experience that everyone goes through.
[02:09] One thing I'll always say when I share this with a group and I've said it here is I've never yet met a person when we go through this who says, "I don't know what you're talking about."
[02:17] Everybody does.
[02:18] So, there are times, ups and downs.
[02:21] There are times when there's spiritual energy, when God feels close, uh when we look forward to prayer, getting to daily mass, adoration, new steps in living our vocation.
[02:32] But, then if we're honest, we'll also recognize that there are times when and often for reasons we don't even understand, the bottom seems to drop out of that energy.
[02:40] Yes.
[02:42] And then if I can say this reverently, you know, maybe we don't want to pray at all and maybe don't or we're not happy with the quality of our prayer.
[02:49] All that energy for new steps and prayer and new ways and reaching out and so forth seems to wane.
[02:55] So, these ups and downs are going on all the time in the spiritual life.
[03:00] Now, Ignatius is not the only one who has described this kind of experience,
[03:04] has described this kind of experience, but no one has described it as clearly,
[03:07] but no one has described it as clearly, as useably, and as practically as Ignatius does.
[03:10] as useably, and as practically as Ignatius does.
[03:12] And that's what he does in his 14 rules, which is what we share when we go through this teaching.
[03:14] in his 14 rules, which is what we share when we go through this teaching.
[03:17] when we go through this teaching.
[03:19] Do you have a a sense as to why it took 1,500 years to have such a clearly articulated vision of this these rules of discernment?
[03:22] 1,500 years to have such a clearly articulated vision of this these rules of discernment?
[03:26] these rules of discernment?
[03:28] I suppose it's a parallel question uh that you could ask of the writings of John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila in a different area, you know, in the higher states of prayer.
[03:31] I suppose it's a parallel question uh that you could ask of the writings of
[03:32] that you could ask of the writings of John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila
[03:35] John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila in a different area, you know, in the higher states of prayer.
[03:36] in a different area, you know, in the higher states of prayer.
[03:38] higher states of prayer.
[03:40] It's just the development of the church's spiritual tradition and Ignatius, like others, he depends on that tradition.
[03:44] tradition and Ignatius, like others, he depends on that tradition.
[03:46] What he does is he formulates it in a way that is so clear and so useable that we speak of as Ignatian, but it's really universal spiritual experience.
[03:48] is he formulates it in a way that is so clear
[03:50] that is so clear and so useable that we speak of as Ignatian, but it's really universal spiritual experience.
[03:52] and so useable that we speak of as Ignatian, but it's really universal spiritual experience.
[03:54] Ignatian, but it's really universal spiritual experience.
[03:56] spiritual experience.
[03:58] So just somewhere in God's providence, he sends the right Thomas Aquinas or John of the Cross or Ignatius at the time that he knows, you know, is good
[04:00] he sends the right Thomas Aquinas or John of the Cross or Ignatius at the time that he knows, you know, is good
[04:03] John of the Cross or Ignatius at the time that he knows, you know, is good
[04:05] time that he knows, you know, is good for the church.
[04:05] for the church. Right.
[04:08] Right. I remember we have a common friend, Father John Horn, and when I was developing the curriculum for the Theology of the Body Institute, this is back in 2004.
[04:17] 2004. Uh I was in close contact with Father John Horn cuz we were having our courses credited through the Institute for Priestly Formation at Creighton.
[04:25] So he was helping me to build our curriculum and he said, "You have to have a course on the discernment of spirits and you have to have Father Timothy Gallagher teach it."
[04:37] And I'll just expose my own ignorance at the time.
[04:40] I was I I wasn't sold on it.
[04:43] I wasn't I wasn't quite seeing the connection.
[04:45] I I I said, "Okay, Father Horn, I love you. I trust you, but you got to sell me on this.
[04:50] What Why is it and he and he just started walking me through some of the basic rules of discernment and I started to see, "Ah, this is a map for living the interior journey.
[05:03] It shows us the pitfalls. It shows us
[05:06] It shows us the pitfalls.
[05:06] It shows us what to be aware of, how to recognize what to be aware of, how to recognize
[05:09] Okay, what voice am I hearing here?
[05:12] Is this Is this my father my heavenly father?
[05:14] Is he speaking this to me?
[05:16] Uh is this the enemy who's getting in there to try to throw me off track?
[05:21] And it became very clear to me very quickly when I first read your book.
[05:25] He said, "Read Father Gallagher's book and you'll understand why."
[05:28] And I remember reading it and thinking, "Yeah, this is this is absolutely critical."
[05:32] He's And this is what I like about the connection with John Paul's Theology of the Body.
[05:36] Yeah, my mic went out.
[05:39] Bring my mic up to my mouth, my producer says.
[05:41] Okay.
[05:43] The Theology of the Body um he John Paul when it when it's put in in that the average person in the pew can understand,
[05:47] it resonates so profoundly.
[05:48] He's putting words to experiences we've already had, but maybe we didn't have the language for.
[05:54] That's right.
[05:54] I've taken your course at least four or five times here at the Institute, and every time I'm just renewed in my conviction, oh my gosh,
[05:58] that he's putting words to what I already know inside, but I didn't have a
[06:07] already know inside, but I didn't have a language for.
[06:09] And when you have a language for.
[06:10] And when you have a language for something, when you put a language for something, when you put a word to something,
[06:12] now it becomes more
[06:14] now it becomes more a reality in your life that you can you
[06:16] a reality in your life that you can you can look at and and understand more deeply,
[06:19] and you realize I'm not alone here.
[06:21] I thought I was the only one who experienced this.
[06:23] I thought And then you beat yourself up cuz you think you're failing at it.
[06:25] And something you have said over and over again to our students,
[06:26] there's no shame in this.
[06:28] That's right.
[06:29] Can you speak into that?
[06:31] Those those ups and downs that we go into periods of consolation,
[06:33] desolation, and then that period of tranquility.
[06:35] Can you speak of those three states, and can you speak of why we're in desolation
[06:37] that we shouldn't think there's something wrong with us?
[06:39] Because it's universal spiritual experience, and that's why people get so excited about this teaching.
[06:42] You know, I'll I'll say, Christopher, I never set out to be full-time in teaching this.
[06:44] What happened was, as people learned about it, they just kept wanting more and more and more.
[07:08] and more.
[07:10] I remember the first time I spoke about it in a retreat.
[07:12] It was a small group of people.
[07:12] What year would this be?
[07:15] Oh, that would have been in the 1990s somewhere, I think.
[07:19] And you were ordained a priest in what year?
[07:20] Uh 1979.
[07:22] 1979? You don't look that old, Father.
[07:25] I was 10 years old in 1979.
[07:28] Well, I was there as a serving as a deacon for John Paul II, and you know, I was actually present for some of the talks of the Of the Theology of the Body.
[07:37] Okay, okay, that's You have to remember to come back to this.
[07:40] Well, but want to get sidetracked from this initial question, but it would it would it would be wrong of me not to ask you questions about that, too.
[07:49] So, we'll put that to the side for now, but we will get back to it.
[07:53] So, you're you were ordained in '79.
[07:54] Uh you're a member of the Oblates of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
[07:58] And that's not clearly that's not I mean not that you would not read Ignatius, but that's not your focus.
[08:05] It actually is the focus of our community.
[08:07] To sum up uh an awful lot.
[08:10] To sum up uh an awful lot.
[08:12] Our founder um had a really saintly Jesuit as a spiritual director when he when he was a seminarian.
[08:17] seminarian.
[08:17] Fell in love with the Ignatian spiritual exercises.
[08:23] Found that these were the most powerful instrument he he felt the church has that people can practically um approach whether in retreat centers or you can go into a parish and preach this and so forth.
[08:35] forth.
[08:35] To create uh desires for holiness and to serve in the apostolate of the church.
[08:42] At the same time, the Jesuits who have it are not strictly speaking for this.
[08:47] Therefore, whatever the church needs and in practice that has become largely education.
[08:51] education.
[08:51] So, that the church needed a group of men who are trained in this and don't do other things.
[08:57] other things.
[08:57] Interesting.
[08:57] Yeah, so that's how an Oblate of the Virgin Mary uh is so focused on this Ignatian spirituality.
[09:03] spirituality.
[09:03] I did not I was not aware of that.
[09:07] when I did my doctoral thesis, it took me 500 pages to say that.
[09:11] Yeah.
[09:12] Yeah.
[09:15] So, uh you were asking then how do how do we get into desolation?
[09:18] how do we get into desolation desolation, the time of tranquility.
[09:21] desolation, the time of tranquility.
[09:23] These three different states that we it's it's never a straight line from
[09:26] from a life of sin to the life of virtue.
[09:27] We're we're we're doing this as you've said throughout the the week that you've been teaching here.
[09:33] Why Can you explain those terms?
[09:35] Consolation, desolation, the time of tranquility.
[09:39] We We all know that once we hear what it means, but maybe some of our listeners aren't familiar or don't use those words.
[09:45] So, spiritual consolation, like as the word consolation indicates, it's a happy experience.
[09:50] It's a heart level experience and it's uplifting.
[09:54] Uh you have a sense, let's say, as you pray on a certain day or receive communion or something works out well in the life of one of your children, you have a sense of God's love and closeness and there's a warmth uh in it and that's a beautiful experience.
[10:08] It's a grace that God gives and that we need from
[10:11] that God gives and that we need from time to time at least, you know, to time to time at least, you know, to strengthen us.
[10:15] strengthen us.
[10:15] The opposite is when uh the enemy, by that Ignatius means Satan and the fallen angels, uh our own concupiscence, harmful influences around us, just the classic triad, the world, the flesh and the devil.
[10:28] Uh will try to bring discouragement into the spiritual life and then that those are the times that I called the downs a bit earlier when we don't have energy for prayer, we don't feel God's closeness, and we can start uh pulling back from some of our spiritual growth if we're not discerning.
[10:43] Right.
[10:43] And uh maybe even expose ourselves to some things that are not the best for us.
[10:49] And then Well, actually, the the whole focus of what Ignatius does in these 14 rules is to clarify this for us and then to give us all the tools that we need to reject spiritual desolation.
[11:03] Um one more thing to say about that, but let's mention the tranquil time.
[11:04] We're not always either in the joy of spiritual consolation or the discouragement of spiritual desolation.
[11:14] discouragement of spiritual desolation.
[11:16] We may just find ourselves kind of, as Ignatius says, in a tranquil condition,
[11:18] Ignatius says, in a tranquil condition, neither really discouraged nor feeling uh a great joy,
[11:21] uh a great joy, but in a peaceful, serene way we live the spiritual life and that's a rich time when we can love and serve the Lord.
[11:23] but in a peaceful, serene way we live the spiritual life and that's a rich time when we can love and serve the Lord.
[11:25] the spiritual life and that's a rich time when we can love and serve the Lord.
[11:26] time when we can love and serve the Lord.
[11:28] Lord.
[11:29] So, those are are the uh the three.
[11:33] So, those are are the uh the three.
[11:35] Now, what Ignatius does is to above all to help us be aware of, understand, name spiritual desolation when it's there, and then provides the tools that we need to reject it.
[11:37] to help us be aware of, understand, name spiritual desolation when it's there, and then provides the tools that we need to reject it.
[11:39] be aware of, understand, name spiritual desolation when it's there, and then provides the tools that we need to reject it.
[11:41] understand, name spiritual desolation when it's there, and then provides the tools that we need to reject it.
[11:44] when it's there, and then provides the tools that we need to reject it.
[11:46] tools that we need to reject it.
[11:47] And you know, I published that first book.
[11:49] I published that first book.
[11:53] It was published I was writing it in uh 2003.
[11:56] So, that's almost 20 years ago.
[11:58] And I could not have foreseen then how extremely timely that teaching would be because there's a lot of spiritual desolation around right now, as we all know.
[12:02] extremely timely that teaching would be because there's a lot of spiritual desolation around right now, as we all know.
[12:04] because there's a lot of spiritual desolation around right now, as we all know.
[12:05] desolation around right now, as we all know.
[12:06] know.
[12:08] Yes. And there are vulnerabilities to it, politics, the culture, uh sufferings of our church, and just what's happening in the world.
[12:11] it, politics, the culture, uh sufferings of our church, and just what's happening in the world.
[12:13] sufferings of our church, and just what's happening in the world.
[12:15] what's happening in the world.
[12:17] So, this teaching becomes increasingly important.
[12:19] And I'd say for another reason, too.
[12:21] As the culture supports our faith less and less, and maybe even attacks it,
[12:26] it becomes more and more important from within to have a kind of formation that
[12:31] allows us to understand our spiritual experience and know how to respond to it.
[12:36] And no one has done that better than Ignatius.
[12:39] Yeah. So, I would say to anyone listening,
[12:42] if you don't know these 14 rules of St. Ignatius, please learn them.
[12:49] Uh you will be I can promise you that you'll be very happy that you've done it because it will make all the difference.
[12:55] Yeah, we'll put a link to your book in the uh not I was going to call it the show notes, Thomas.
[12:59] It's not the show the description. Thank you. Podcast world, YouTube world, in the description, we will put a link to this book.
[13:06] This is a great starter for just getting introduced to what these rules are and how important they are for our day-to-day lives.
[13:16] day-to-day lives.
[13:18] Father, this thing that you keep repeating to the students, there's no shame
[13:22] when we're in a time of desolation. Can you speak into that?
[13:26] Because I know from my own experience, I'm so prone when I'm in that place to to beat myself up, but I'm kind of falling right into the enemy's trap when I do that.
[13:35] Yeah, you know, what's difficult is when we don't even have a language for it.
[13:40] Right. So, we feel the burden.
[13:42] We know it while we wouldn't want it to be that way and somehow we have a sense that this isn't where God wants us to be,
[13:50] but we don't even know how to approach it.
[13:51] Once you get that vocabulary, so that spiritual desolation, when in your spiritual life, as you're living your life of faith, you feel a sense of discouragement and you feel you don't feel God's closeness, you don't feel God's love, there's maybe some anxiety in there somewhere as we live the spiritual life.
[14:10] What we need to know is that this is universal spiritual experience. Yeah.
[14:15] You can describe this and I can
[14:17] You can describe this and I can confidently have even a large crowd in front of me and I'll never find a person who says I don't know what you're talking about.
[14:24] But because we don't even have a language for it, we never do talk about it and then a lot of heavy things can creep in.
[14:33] We can feel ashamed, you know, that I shouldn't be experiencing this.
[14:37] I must be failing the Lord somewhere.
[14:39] No, you're not.
[14:41] This is not Look, read the writings of any saint, you'll find it there.
[14:45] Um the Lord is permitting this, permitting the enemy to bring this for reasons of of a love that Ignatius also describes in the rule because when we resist it, well, we grow a lot in the spiritual life.
[14:58] So, there's absolutely no shame in it.
[15:01] And that's really important as you're saying.
[15:03] You are not the only one who experiences this, everyone does and there is a path to freedom from that.
[15:11] And that's why I love teaching these rules.
[15:12] I think that's what's really driven all of this.
[15:14] As I say, I never planned any of this,
[15:18] never planned any of this, but what happens, like you said earlier.
[15:20] but what happens, like you said earlier, once you learn these rules.
[15:23] once you learn these rules, you say everybody should know this.
[15:25] you say everybody should know this.
[15:25] Everybody must know this.
[15:26] This is the way I would um maybe as an illustration.
[15:29] way I would um maybe as an illustration.
[15:29] Yeah, please.
[15:30] So, let's say there's somebody who's never played baseball.
[15:33] somebody who's never played baseball, but he's watched it occasionally on television.
[15:34] but he's watched it occasionally on television, and maybe there's been some conversation about it.
[15:36] television, and maybe there's been some conversation about it.
[15:38] conversation about it.
[15:38] And then he is asked to go play, I don't know, center field, we'll call it.
[15:41] And then he is asked to go play, I don't know, center field, we'll call it.
[15:45] But he doesn't know the rules.
[15:48] But he doesn't know the rules.
[15:48] Let's take the same person and the coach sits him down and walks him through all of the rules.
[15:50] Let's take the same person and the coach sits him down and walks him through all of the rules.
[15:52] sits him down and walks him through all of the rules.
[15:52] Now he knows the rules of the game.
[15:53] of the rules. Now he knows the rules of the game.
[15:55] the game. Now you can go out and play it.
[15:55] it.
[15:55] Yeah.
[15:56] Yeah.
[15:56] And that's the difference that Ignatius' 14 rules can make in the spiritual life.
[15:58] And that's the difference that Ignatius' 14 rules can make in the spiritual life.
[16:00] 14 rules can make in the spiritual life.
[16:00] Can you walk us through the 14 rules, summaries of them?
[16:03] Can you walk us through the 14 rules, summaries of them?
[16:04] summaries of them?
[16:04] Sure.
[16:05] Sure.
[16:05] Yeah, I'll just do that very rapidly.
[16:07] Yeah, I'll just do that very rapidly.
[16:07] Yeah.
[16:07] Yeah.
[16:07] So, in the first two rules, Ignatius looks at two fundamental spiritual situations.
[16:09] So, in the first two rules, Ignatius looks at two fundamental spiritual situations.
[16:11] looks at two fundamental spiritual situations.
[16:11] He starts with the person far from God, and he keeps getting closer as the rules unfold.
[16:14] situations. He starts with the person far from God, and he keeps getting closer as the rules unfold.
[16:16] far from God, and he keeps getting closer as the rules unfold.
[16:18] closer as the rules unfold.
[16:20] So, in a person who is far from God, he asks, "How will the enemy,
[16:23] the evil one, uh work in that person,
[16:25] and how will the good spirit,
[16:27] by good spirit he means the Holy Spirit,
[16:29] the good angels, the work of grace in
[16:31] us, that whole spiritual richness that we receive through baptism,
[16:36] God and all of those influences that are
[16:37] from God and directed to God?
[16:40] So, when a person is in that unhappy spiritual situation, the enemy will try
[16:45] to fill the imagination with sensual images of sensual delights and
[16:49] pleasures, because as long as the imagination is filled in this way, the
[16:53] person is likely to continue.
[16:56] Whereas the good spirit will sting and bite, Ignatius says.
[17:00] Uh you can think of Augustine during those 20 years when he's so far from
[17:03] God, and he just can't find peace.
[17:05] Restlessness and which is the loving action of God never
[17:09] leaving him in peace, and that action finally makes him decide I've got to
[17:13] change.
[17:13] So, in this direction, when our our lives are
[17:16] in a
[17:17] kind of general way moving away from
[17:19] kind of general way moving away from God,
[17:21] God, the good spirit, meaning God's movement
[17:24] the good spirit, meaning God's movement in our lives, is going to sting.
[17:26] in our lives, is going to sting.
[17:28] Because it's it's we're experiencing it as
[17:30] it's it's we're experiencing it as contrary to our general disposition.
[17:32] Is that a good way to put it?
[17:34] Yes, the good spirit is doing exactly the opposite of what the enemy is doing.
[17:37] the opposite of what the enemy is doing.
[17:39] The enemy is making this comfortable and inviting until, you know,
[17:41] inviting until, you know, the disaster happens at some point as he hopes.
[17:44] the disaster happens at some point as he hopes.
[17:46] And the good spirit is troubling this movement because it's contrary,
[17:49] this movement because it's contrary, directly contrary to our humanity as God intended us to be.
[17:51] directly contrary to our humanity as God intended us to be.
[17:54] intended us to be.
[17:56] Then when the person's direction changes, so Augustine after his confession, or my guess would be it's going to be most of the people who are listening to this conversation, with all of our human fragilities, the just one fall seven times a day, all of that, but sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[17:58] Then when the person's direction changes, so Augustine after his confession, or my guess would be it's going to be most of the people who are listening to this conversation, with all of our human fragilities, the just one fall seven times a day, all of that, but sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[18:00] confession, or my guess would be it's going to be most of the people who are listening to this conversation, with all of our human fragilities, the just one fall seven times a day, all of that, but sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[18:01] going to be most of the people who are listening to this conversation, with all of our human fragilities, the just one fall seven times a day, all of that, but sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[18:03] listening to this conversation, with all of our human fragilities, the just one fall seven times a day, all of that, but sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[18:06] of our human fragilities, the just one fall seven times a day, all of that, but sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[18:08] fall seven times a day, all of that, but sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[18:10] sincerely don't want sin and want to love the Lord,
[18:12] love the Lord,
[18:14] then because the person's direction has reversed now, the action of the two spirits will reverse.
[18:16] then because the person's direction has reversed now, the action of the two spirits will reverse.
[18:18] reversed now, the action of the two spirits will reverse.
[18:19] spirits will reverse.
[18:21] Now it's the enemy who's going to try to hinder that and discourage, bite,
[18:23] hinder that and discourage, bite, Ignatius says, trouble the person with false understandings of things.
[18:29] false understandings of things.
[18:31] And the good spirit is going to give courage and give strength and inspirations, consolations, warmth of heart, uh taking away the obstacles that the enemy tries to put in in the way.
[18:35] inspirations, consolations, warmth of heart, uh taking away the obstacles that the enemy tries to put in in the way.
[18:40] the enemy tries to put in in the way.
[18:43] So, maybe I can give an example of this.
[18:47] So, here is um let's see a woman who has been sort of lackadaisical in her faith,
[18:49] been sort of lackadaisical in her faith, but 6 months ago um decided to return to regular Sunday Mass, and she loves what's happening in her life.
[18:51] but 6 months ago um decided to return to regular Sunday Mass, and she loves what's happening in her life.
[18:54] decided to return to regular Sunday Mass, and she loves what's happening in her life.
[18:56] Mass, and she loves what's happening in her life.
[18:58] her life.
[19:01] She has a new peace, uh her marriage is stronger, um and she decides at a certain point, let's say she hears a homily, and she decides that she's going to start praying with scripture every morning, with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:03] uh her marriage is stronger, um and she decides at a certain point, let's say she hears a homily, and she decides that she's going to start praying with scripture every morning, with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:04] um and she decides at a certain point, let's say she hears a homily, and she decides that she's going to start praying with scripture every morning, with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:06] and she decides at a certain point, let's say she hears a homily, and she decides that she's going to start praying with scripture every morning, with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:08] let's say she hears a homily, and she decides that she's going to start praying with scripture every morning, with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:10] decides that she's going to start praying with scripture every morning, with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:12] praying with scripture every morning, with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:15] with the daily readings, we'll say.
[19:16] Um but then you know, um at work things become
[19:18] but then you know, um at work things become
[19:21] you know, um at work things become difficult and it's kind of discouraging.
[19:23] difficult and it's kind of discouraging.
[19:25] Maybe there's a tension with a family member that doesn't resolve too well and she gets kind of discouraged.
[19:29] So, that's just a natural response, you know, to the situations like that.
[19:33] But then the enemy comes in into that vulnerability with his spiritual desolation.
[19:39] And she finds herself thinking you know, you get these enthusiasms, they never last.
[19:46] You've never prayed with scripture ever.
[19:48] What makes you think you're even going to be able to do this, you know?
[19:52] Why get your hopes up think anything's ever going to change?
[19:53] Now, I know as I'm saying that we've all heard those kinds of voices at times.
[19:59] If we believe them, if she believes them, she won't take the new step in prayer.
[20:05] A door will close.
[20:07] But if she can be discerning in the way that Ignatius is inviting us to be discerning.
[20:11] You know, to be aware of something here I got to look at, you know what, this isn't right.
[20:15] I'm staying with what I had planned and she does start the prayer the next morning, a door opens, a beautiful door that can
[20:22] door opens, a beautiful door that can lead to all kind of grace.
[20:23] lead to all kind of grace. So, it takes an interior kind of
[20:25] So, it takes an interior kind of awareness of that I'm even hearing the
[20:28] awareness of that I'm even hearing the voices cuz sometimes we're just so
[20:31] voices cuz sometimes we're just so rapidly moving along with our day. There
[20:33] rapidly moving along with our day. There are voices that are influencing our
[20:35] are voices that are influencing our choices, but we're not maybe even aware
[20:37] choices, but we're not maybe even aware that that's happening. So, all of this
[20:39] that that's happening. So, all of this begins with a certain spiritual
[20:41] begins with a certain spiritual awareness where I can even Okay, I'm
[20:43] awareness where I can even Okay, I'm hearing a voice. I'm hearing some
[20:46] hearing a voice. I'm hearing some push in this direction. Whose voice is
[20:48] push in this direction. Whose voice is that? We have to have the wherewithal to
[20:50] that? We have to have the wherewithal to stop, pause, and and reflect.
[20:53] stop, pause, and and reflect. Absolutely. That's that's the
[20:55] Absolutely. That's that's the indispensable
[20:56] indispensable gateway to discernment. So, Ignatius
[20:58] gateway to discernment. So, Ignatius says there are three different kinds of
[21:00] says there are three different kinds of thoughts within us.
[21:03] thoughts within us. There is the good spirit.
[21:05] There is the good spirit. You know, that's God's voice speaking to
[21:06] You know, that's God's voice speaking to our hearts when we get inspirations or
[21:09] our hearts when we get inspirations or a new understandings and so forth. There
[21:12] a new understandings and so forth. There is the voice of the enemy that is trying
[21:14] is the voice of the enemy that is trying to discourage us and lead us away from
[21:16] to discourage us and lead us away from that kind of growth in the spiritual
[21:18] that kind of growth in the spiritual life. And then there's our own personal
[21:20] life. And then there's our own personal individual human voice. So, discernment
[21:22] individual human voice. So, discernment does require a certain uh as St.
[21:25] does require a certain uh as St. Augustine would say, being within enough
[21:27] Augustine would say, being within enough to notice. Mhm. Now, I think what makes
[21:30] to notice. Mhm. Now, I think what makes that possible is to learn this teaching
[21:33] that possible is to learn this teaching from Ignatius.
[21:35] from Ignatius. Without that, we don't really even know
[21:37] Without that, we don't really even know what we're looking for.
[21:39] what we're looking for. Uh and now, I don't want to say Ignatius
[21:40] Uh and now, I don't want to say Ignatius is the only one who describes this
[21:42] is the only one who describes this experience, but unquestionably his
[21:45] experience, but unquestionably his teaching is the clearest, most usable,
[21:48] teaching is the clearest, most usable, most practical, succinct teaching that
[21:51] most practical, succinct teaching that thou will find. So,
[21:53] thou will find. So, I would I think the invitation there is,
[21:55] I would I think the invitation there is, would you consider learning this
[21:57] would you consider learning this teaching from Ignatius?
[21:59] teaching from Ignatius? And once you do, you'll be on the road
[22:01] And once you do, you'll be on the road toward that kind of awareness.
[22:04] toward that kind of awareness. So, rules rule one and two are a pair.
[22:07] So, rules rule one and two are a pair. They are a pair.
[22:08] They are a pair. Right. Mhm.
[22:09] Right. Mhm. And then we go
[22:10] And then we go Rules three and four are the next pair.
[22:13] Rules three and four are the next pair. In rule three, Ignatius describes
[22:15] In rule three, Ignatius describes spiritual consolation. The uplifting,
[22:18] spiritual consolation. The uplifting, happy movements of the heart in our
[22:20] happy movements of the heart in our relationship with God. So, let's say a
[22:22] relationship with God. So, let's say a woman is praying with Mark chapter five,
[22:24] woman is praying with Mark chapter five, the woman with the hemorrhage. And she
[22:27] the woman with the hemorrhage. And she she enters into the scene, and she sees
[22:30] she enters into the scene, and she sees the moment when Jesus says, "Who touched
[22:32] the moment when Jesus says, "Who touched me?"
[22:33] me?" And the woman with fear and trembling
[22:35] And the woman with fear and trembling falls at
[22:36] falls at down at his feet, and she tells him
[22:38] down at his feet, and she tells him everything.
[22:39] everything. And he calls her daughter.
[22:41] And he calls her daughter. And as the woman is praying with this,
[22:43] And as the woman is praying with this, her heart is warmed because she knows
[22:45] her heart is warmed because she knows that the Lord says daughter to her as
[22:47] that the Lord says daughter to her as well.
[22:48] well. These would be experiences of spiritual
[22:50] These would be experiences of spiritual consolation. And then in rule four,
[22:52] consolation. And then in rule four, spiritual desolation, which is exactly
[22:55] spiritual desolation, which is exactly the opposite. Of course, spiritual
[22:56] the opposite. Of course, spiritual consolation is a grace, it's a gift of
[22:59] consolation is a grace, it's a gift of God, a work of God. Spiritual desolation
[23:01] God, a work of God. Spiritual desolation is a tactic of the enemy to try to
[23:03] is a tactic of the enemy to try to discourage us. So,
[23:05] discourage us. So, um
[23:06] um let's say the the woman plans to pray,
[23:09] let's say the the woman plans to pray, you know, with the 10 minutes for with
[23:11] you know, with the 10 minutes for with scripture every morning, but then as I
[23:13] scripture every morning, but then as I say,
[23:14] say, some difficult things happen at work or
[23:16] some difficult things happen at work or maybe a tense conversation
[23:18] maybe a tense conversation with her teenage daughter,
[23:19] with her teenage daughter, and that's kind of discouraging. And uh
[23:22] and that's kind of discouraging. And uh now she doesn't feel and
[23:25] now she doesn't feel and now the enemy gets in there with the
[23:26] now the enemy gets in there with the specifically spiritual desolation. She
[23:29] specifically spiritual desolation. She doesn't feel God's closeness. All that
[23:31] doesn't feel God's closeness. All that energy for new steps in the spiritual
[23:33] energy for new steps in the spiritual life has waned.
[23:34] life has waned. And she's on the verge of just letting
[23:36] And she's on the verge of just letting all this new prayer go, okay?
[23:38] all this new prayer go, okay? If she can be aware,
[23:41] If she can be aware, this is the way I say it. I love this.
[23:43] this is the way I say it. I love this. Wait a minute.
[23:43] Wait a minute. Yep. Which is perfect because that's the
[23:46] Yep. Which is perfect because that's the movement from being unaware to being
[23:48] movement from being unaware to being aware.
[23:49] aware. You know what? This isn't right. That's
[23:50] You know what? This isn't right. That's the understanding Ignatius is saying,
[23:53] the understanding Ignatius is saying, however consciously what she's saying is
[23:55] however consciously what she's saying is this is the enemy.
[23:56] this is the enemy. And you know what? I'm sticking right to
[23:58] And you know what? I'm sticking right to what I planned and I'm starting that
[24:00] what I planned and I'm starting that prayer tomorrow morning. So, she rejects
[24:02] prayer tomorrow morning. So, she rejects the enemy's spiritual desolations.
[24:05] the enemy's spiritual desolations. And spiritual consolations and spiritual
[24:07] And spiritual consolations and spiritual desolations are frequent experiences in
[24:10] desolations are frequent experiences in the daily spiritual life.
[24:12] the daily spiritual life. So, to be aware of them as you're
[24:13] So, to be aware of them as you're saying, to be able to name them and
[24:16] saying, to be able to name them and respond appropriately accepting God's
[24:18] respond appropriately accepting God's work in spiritual consolation, rejecting
[24:20] work in spiritual consolation, rejecting the enemy's lies in desolation, that can
[24:23] the enemy's lies in desolation, that can change so much in the spiritual life.
[24:25] change so much in the spiritual life. just today in class. And this I'm
[24:27] just today in class. And this I'm getting ahead of myself to a future
[24:29] getting ahead of myself to a future rule, but this whole snowball effect
[24:31] rule, but this whole snowball effect that if we and it may not
[24:34] that if we and it may not be a big deal that one little thing
[24:37] be a big deal that one little thing to well, what's that voice saying? Am I
[24:39] to well, what's that voice saying? Am I going to go down this road? I'm going to
[24:41] going to go down this road? I'm going to you know, I was supposed to pray, but
[24:42] you know, I was supposed to pray, but let me check that that email right now
[24:44] let me check that that email right now or let me check that text or let me just
[24:47] or let me check that text or let me just watch a YouTube video or something.
[24:49] watch a YouTube video or something. It's not a big deal in and of itself,
[24:51] It's not a big deal in and of itself, but that can get a snowball rolling
[24:55] but that can get a snowball rolling that can
[24:56] that can eventually be a very big deal.
[24:58] eventually be a very big deal. And and this is where rule five
[25:01] And and this is where rule five comes into play. Which I've heard you
[25:04] comes into play. Which I've heard you say it enough. It's this is this takes
[25:07] say it enough. It's this is this takes us to
[25:08] us to one of the most important of all the 14
[25:10] one of the most important of all the 14 rules.
[25:11] rules. If um
[25:13] If um if any of us listening in this
[25:15] if any of us listening in this conversation I'll say it this way. Uh if
[25:18] conversation I'll say it this way. Uh if you were to forget everything else that
[25:20] you were to forget everything else that Christopher and I are saying here, you
[25:22] Christopher and I are saying here, you won't. But if you were I would and this
[25:24] won't. But if you were I would and this from the heart I would beg if you please
[25:26] from the heart I would beg if you please never forget rule five. Because rule
[25:29] never forget rule five. Because rule five will get you safely through almost
[25:31] five will get you safely through almost any spiritual darkness you may ever
[25:33] any spiritual darkness you may ever experience. And we can sum it up in
[25:35] experience. And we can sum it up in eight words as Ignatius says it. In time
[25:38] eight words as Ignatius says it. In time of desolation when you know you're in
[25:40] of desolation when you know you're in that discouraging place in the spiritual
[25:42] that discouraging place in the spiritual life, no shame, no surprise. But be
[25:45] life, no shame, no surprise. But be aware, understand it, in this case
[25:47] aware, understand it, in this case reject it. Can I just interject? I just
[25:49] reject it. Can I just interject? I just have to say it. Every time you say that,
[25:51] have to say it. Every time you say that, no shame, no surprise I I I take a a a
[25:55] no shame, no surprise I I I take a a a sigh of relief. Cuz there's there's this
[25:57] sigh of relief. Cuz there's there's this tendency to think
[25:59] tendency to think I'm I'm screwing up. I've I'm and it can
[26:03] I'm I'm screwing up. I've I'm and it can be the case that our faults can bring us
[26:05] be the case that our faults can bring us into a desolation. But even there we can
[26:07] into a desolation. But even there we can have this trust that there is sufficient
[26:09] have this trust that there is sufficient grace to pull me out of that desolation
[26:12] grace to pull me out of that desolation and the Lord is allowing it to teach me
[26:14] and the Lord is allowing it to teach me something even when it is my fault. But
[26:16] something even when it is my fault. But again, even that is par for the course.
[26:18] again, even that is par for the course. We're going to have these faults.
[26:21] We're going to have these faults. But in rule five, when we're in a state
[26:23] But in rule five, when we're in a state of desolation
[26:25] of desolation we can be tempted to think, well, I'm
[26:27] we can be tempted to think, well, I'm not going to I I had this commitment to
[26:29] not going to I I had this commitment to pray or I had this commitment to go to
[26:30] pray or I had this commitment to go to that retreat or I had this commitment to
[26:32] that retreat or I had this commitment to We experience this all the time. People
[26:34] We experience this all the time. People who have committed to come to our
[26:35] who have committed to come to our courses. And then in the days preceding
[26:39] courses. And then in the days preceding they're they're
[26:41] they're they're caught up with all kinds of distractions
[26:43] caught up with all kinds of distractions and diversions and temptations not to
[26:45] and diversions and temptations not to come.
[26:46] come. But the principle of rule number five
[26:49] But the principle of rule number five when When in a state of desolation, do
[26:51] when When in a state of desolation, do not make a change of the spiritual
[26:54] not make a change of the spiritual commitments you've made when you're in a
[26:57] commitments you've made when you're in a state of consolation or
[26:59] state of consolation or is it right to say even in that time of
[27:01] is it right to say even in that time of That tranquil time. Tranquil time,
[27:03] That tranquil time. Tranquil time, right. Yes, and the beauty of that rule
[27:05] right. Yes, and the beauty of that rule is that it's very simple.
[27:07] is that it's very simple. It's very clear.
[27:09] It's very clear. And there are no exceptions. So, you ask
[27:12] And there are no exceptions. So, you ask yourself, I plan to go to confession at
[27:14] yourself, I plan to go to confession at 4:00 this afternoon,
[27:16] 4:00 this afternoon, Saturday.
[27:18] Saturday. And then I'm thinking of not doing it.
[27:19] And then I'm thinking of not doing it. Maybe I just wait till next week. Okay,
[27:22] Maybe I just wait till next week. Okay, first question, am I in a time of
[27:23] first question, am I in a time of spiritual desolation?
[27:25] spiritual desolation? And if I can recognize, yeah, I'm in the
[27:27] And if I can recognize, yeah, I'm in the discouragement of desolation and maybe
[27:30] discouragement of desolation and maybe some difficult things have happened and
[27:31] some difficult things have happened and prayer has been slipping and so forth.
[27:34] prayer has been slipping and so forth. And then secondly, I ask myself, am I
[27:36] And then secondly, I ask myself, am I thinking of changing a spiritual plan
[27:38] thinking of changing a spiritual plan that I had in place
[27:40] that I had in place before the desolation began and I have
[27:42] before the desolation began and I have to say yes to that, too.
[27:44] to say yes to that, too. Then I have all the clarity that I need
[27:46] Then I have all the clarity that I need to know.
[27:47] to know. discernment is needed. None.
[27:48] discernment is needed. None. to stick to the plan. Get yourself there
[27:50] to stick to the plan. Get yourself there at 4:00.
[27:51] at 4:00. enemy has good reason not to want me to
[27:54] enemy has good reason not to want me to go to confession at 4:00 when I had
[27:56] go to confession at 4:00 when I had planned to do so. Because very likely
[27:58] planned to do so. Because very likely that confession will break the power of
[28:00] that confession will break the power of the spiritual desolation.
[28:02] the spiritual desolation. So, that single You know, I can't tell
[28:04] So, that single You know, I can't tell you, Christopher, how many bad decisions
[28:06] you, Christopher, how many bad decisions I have not made
[28:08] I have not made because because of rule five. And so, I
[28:11] because because of rule five. And so, I I just wish the whole world knew it.
[28:13] I just wish the whole world knew it. Well, I can tell you a lot of bad
[28:14] Well, I can tell you a lot of bad decisions I did make cuz I didn't follow
[28:16] decisions I did make cuz I didn't follow rule five.
[28:17] rule five. Well,
[28:18] Well, that too can serve in a beautiful way
[28:21] that too can serve in a beautiful way because most of the time I think when
[28:23] because most of the time I think when people learn rule five, and I'll include
[28:24] people learn rule five, and I'll include myself in this, we can all look back
[28:27] myself in this, we can all look back over our lives and see ways in which we
[28:30] over our lives and see ways in which we would have done something differently uh
[28:32] would have done something differently uh had we known rule five.
[28:34] had we known rule five. But the richness of that is that
[28:36] But the richness of that is that now we really get it because we've seen
[28:39] now we really get it because we've seen it in our experience and the memory of
[28:41] it in our experience and the memory of those decisions in the past can really
[28:43] those decisions in the past can really enforce in us the the readiness not to
[28:46] enforce in us the the readiness not to let that happen again. So, I'm so glad
[28:48] let that happen again. So, I'm so glad that we're focusing for a moment on rule
[28:50] that we're focusing for a moment on rule five because of itself that can change
[28:53] five because of itself that can change so much in life. And what we're really
[28:55] so much in life. And what we're really saying here is is putting on the
[28:57] saying here is is putting on the spiritual armor to fight the battle and
[28:59] spiritual armor to fight the battle and win. Like Ignatius teaches us how to
[29:02] win. Like Ignatius teaches us how to sniff out the enemy and he's crafty. The
[29:05] sniff out the enemy and he's crafty. The enemy is crafty, but he's he's like
[29:08] enemy is crafty, but he's he's like given us the inside information on how
[29:10] given us the inside information on how to recognize where he's slithering
[29:12] to recognize where he's slithering around and to be done with him and
[29:16] around and to be done with him and recognize that's that's not the voice of
[29:17] recognize that's that's not the voice of my father. Reject, which opens me to
[29:20] my father. Reject, which opens me to hear the voice of my father. Which
[29:23] hear the voice of my father. Which that's discernment. Is that not
[29:24] that's discernment. Is that not discernment in a in a nutshell?
[29:26] discernment in a in a nutshell? Very much so. You know, the image that's
[29:29] Very much so. You know, the image that's coming to my mind as you say this it's
[29:30] coming to my mind as you say this it's like during World War when they tried to
[29:33] like during World War when they tried to crack the Yep. Yep. The code of the
[29:34] crack the Yep. Yep. The code of the enemies. That's exactly Yes. So, that
[29:36] enemies. That's exactly Yes. So, that they knew in advance what the enemy was
[29:39] they knew in advance what the enemy was going to do and that's that's what these
[29:41] going to do and that's that's what these rules equip you to do.
[29:42] rules equip you to do. want that? Yeah. We all need that.
[29:44] want that? Yeah. We all need that. Yeah. So, if you know the enemy's
[29:46] Yeah. So, if you know the enemy's playbook and you'll know it if you go
[29:49] playbook and you'll know it if you go through these 14 rules, then we're going
[29:51] through these 14 rules, then we're going to pick it up so much more quickly. And
[29:53] to pick it up so much more quickly. And you keep saying in the class this week
[29:55] you keep saying in the class this week you keep saying this is
[29:57] you keep saying this is these are exercises in hope.
[29:59] these are exercises in hope. Right? The thought to follow these rules
[30:01] Right? The thought to follow these rules is a is a lesson in hope and just as
[30:05] is a is a lesson in hope and just as you're saying it's the hope of being
[30:07] you're saying it's the hope of being able to recognize in advance how the
[30:09] able to recognize in advance how the enemy can try to trick me up and to
[30:11] enemy can try to trick me up and to avoid getting tripped up and to make
[30:13] avoid getting tripped up and to make great progress. Um I'm remembering some
[30:16] great progress. Um I'm remembering some example you gave was it uh
[30:18] example you gave was it uh Elizabeth Ann Seton who said she grew 10
[30:21] Elizabeth Ann Seton who said she grew 10 years in the spiritual life in a number
[30:23] years in the spiritual life in a number of just a couple hours.
[30:25] of just a couple hours. a couple hours. Yeah. What was that
[30:26] a couple hours. Yeah. What was that story? I don't remember.
[30:28] story? I don't remember. she's a 15-year-old girl with her heart
[30:30] she's a 15-year-old girl with her heart starved for a love of her father who was
[30:32] starved for a love of her father who was more absent than she wanted.
[30:34] more absent than she wanted. And she's out in the in the woods
[30:37] And she's out in the in the woods and she finds a chestnut tree and she
[30:39] and she finds a chestnut tree and she lies down underneath it and then God
[30:42] lies down underneath it and then God just floods her heart with a father's
[30:44] just floods her heart with a father's love and just pouring his father's love
[30:46] love and just pouring his father's love into her heart. So, with reverence cuz
[30:49] into her heart. So, with reverence cuz it's very it's a very holy ground here.
[30:51] it's very it's a very holy ground here. This would be a very rich and powerful
[30:53] This would be a very rich and powerful experience of spiritual consolation.
[30:56] experience of spiritual consolation. right. And then with the very sure
[30:57] right. And then with the very sure intuition of the saints, she says, "Then
[31:00] intuition of the saints, she says, "Then I laid back to enjoy the heavenly peace
[31:02] I laid back to enjoy the heavenly peace that came over my soul." So, that's
[31:04] that came over my soul." So, that's perfect. She's just receiving it.
[31:07] perfect. She's just receiving it. And I am sure in the 2 hours so enjoyed
[31:10] And I am sure in the 2 hours so enjoyed grew 10 years in the spiritual life. So,
[31:12] grew 10 years in the spiritual life. So, to be aware of understand and accept
[31:16] to be aware of understand and accept God's spiritual consolations, it brings
[31:19] God's spiritual consolations, it brings beautiful growth in the spiritual life.
[31:20] beautiful growth in the spiritual life. And my bet would be that most of us
[31:23] And my bet would be that most of us listening
[31:24] listening can easily look back over our lives and
[31:26] can easily look back over our lives and we can identify times of spiritual
[31:28] we can identify times of spiritual consolation and the fruits that come
[31:30] consolation and the fruits that come with them.
[31:32] with them. Ignatius will dedicate most of the
[31:34] Ignatius will dedicate most of the rules, however, to
[31:36] rules, however, to uh defending us against spiritual
[31:38] uh defending us against spiritual desolation.
[31:39] desolation. Mhm.
[31:39] Mhm. This is the way I'd say it.
[31:41] This is the way I'd say it. It's my own conviction. It's about 40
[31:43] It's my own conviction. It's about 40 years now I've been working with this.
[31:46] years now I've been working with this. Um
[31:47] Um that for most dedicated people, and
[31:49] that for most dedicated people, and again, I'm going to imagine that's most
[31:51] again, I'm going to imagine that's most of the people listening to this
[31:53] of the people listening to this conversation,
[31:54] conversation, for most dedicated people for most of
[31:56] for most dedicated people for most of the way on the spiritual journey,
[31:59] the way on the spiritual journey, the principal obstacle is really
[32:01] the principal obstacle is really spiritual desolation.
[32:02] spiritual desolation. Right.
[32:03] Right. When we get disheartened, discouraged,
[32:06] When we get disheartened, discouraged, can start regressing,
[32:08] can start regressing, uh opening ourselves to things that
[32:10] uh opening ourselves to things that aren't good spiritually and so forth.
[32:13] aren't good spiritually and so forth. So, this teaching, which better than
[32:15] So, this teaching, which better than anything else in the church's spiritual
[32:17] anything else in the church's spiritual tradition, equips us to be aware of
[32:19] tradition, equips us to be aware of understand and reject it is is
[32:22] understand and reject it is is I'd say it's an indispensable tool.
[32:24] I'd say it's an indispensable tool. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
[32:26] Yeah, I agree. Yeah. So, we go from rule five, make no change
[32:29] So, we go from rule five, make no change if you're in a state of desolation, to
[32:30] if you're in a state of desolation, to rule six. How would you summarize rule
[32:33] rule six. How would you summarize rule six? So, rule five, don't change
[32:35] six? So, rule five, don't change anything you'd planned spiritually if
[32:37] anything you'd planned spiritually if you know you're in a time of spiritual
[32:39] you know you're in a time of spiritual desolation.
[32:41] desolation. But don't be passive either in the face
[32:42] But don't be passive either in the face of the spiritual desolation. So, change
[32:44] of the spiritual desolation. So, change yourself. This is rule six. Change
[32:47] yourself. This is rule six. Change yourself with energy, with trust in God,
[32:49] yourself with energy, with trust in God, using the tools
[32:51] using the tools against the desolation itself. And
[32:53] against the desolation itself. And Ignatius mentions four of them. Prayer
[32:55] Ignatius mentions four of them. Prayer of petition.
[32:57] of petition. A kind of meditation that is directed
[32:59] A kind of meditation that is directed specifically to strengthen us against
[33:01] specifically to strengthen us against the desolation.
[33:03] the desolation. Uh examination. Take a look at it. What
[33:05] Uh examination. Take a look at it. What am I feeling?
[33:07] am I feeling? I'll get sidetracked if I give mention
[33:09] I'll get sidetracked if I give mention stories here, but I will share this one.
[33:11] stories here, but I will share this one. Um
[33:12] Um I was provincial in our community for 10
[33:15] I was provincial in our community for 10 years, and that involved uh
[33:16] years, and that involved uh international travel.
[33:19] international travel. And we would usually have these trips in
[33:20] And we would usually have these trips in the fall. And so, routinely what I would
[33:23] the fall. And so, routinely what I would do, I think a bit unwisely, I'd get back
[33:26] do, I think a bit unwisely, I'd get back exhausted, and there was a large retreat
[33:28] exhausted, and there was a large retreat house nearby Boston, and I'd go spend a
[33:31] house nearby Boston, and I'd go spend a few days there.
[33:32] few days there. Now, it was restful, but I was too alone
[33:34] Now, it was restful, but I was too alone with that kind of tiredness, which
[33:36] with that kind of tiredness, which wasn't really good.
[33:37] wasn't really good. And one of these years, uh I had planned
[33:40] And one of these years, uh I had planned to have dinner with a priest friend one
[33:42] to have dinner with a priest friend one of those evenings.
[33:43] of those evenings. And so, we met, and I was just sharing
[33:46] And so, we met, and I was just sharing with him what I was uh experiencing, and
[33:48] with him what I was uh experiencing, and he wasn't trying to be a spiritual
[33:49] he wasn't trying to be a spiritual director, just a friend.
[33:51] director, just a friend. And he said, "You know, it sounds like
[33:52] And he said, "You know, it sounds like you're in desolation."
[33:55] you're in desolation." That broke the whole thing.
[33:56] That broke the whole thing. Just just to be able to name it, because
[33:58] Just just to be able to name it, because that set me free to do Now I know what's
[34:00] that set me free to do Now I know what's going on,
[34:01] going on, and I can take the appropriate action in
[34:04] and I can take the appropriate action in dealing with it. So, that's the
[34:05] dealing with it. So, that's the examination. And finally, suitable
[34:08] examination. And finally, suitable penance. Instead of fleeing into
[34:10] penance. Instead of fleeing into gratification, which is our tendency,
[34:13] gratification, which is our tendency, desolation is awful, there's the
[34:15] desolation is awful, there's the refrigerator, there's the phone. Stand
[34:17] refrigerator, there's the phone. Stand your ground in small but courageous ways
[34:20] your ground in small but courageous ways in the face of that. So, those are the
[34:21] in the face of that. So, those are the tools.
[34:21] tools. You said something that really struck me
[34:23] You said something that really struck me this week to our students. You said
[34:25] this week to our students. You said small steps are beautiful.
[34:28] small steps are beautiful. Speaking to that a little bit.
[34:31] Speaking to that a little bit. Well, I'll quote Therese, Saint Therese,
[34:34] Well, I'll quote Therese, Saint Therese, who says that
[34:35] who says that she's speaking to one of the sisters who
[34:38] she's speaking to one of the sisters who was very discouraged
[34:40] was very discouraged and she says to her, "God always gives
[34:42] and she says to her, "God always gives the grace for the first step.
[34:44] the grace for the first step. You take that and then the grace will
[34:46] You take that and then the grace will will will follow you as you take more."
[34:49] will will follow you as you take more." We can look at a spiritual situation in
[34:52] We can look at a spiritual situation in which we find ourselves and feel very
[34:54] which we find ourselves and feel very small and very weak and very helpless.
[34:58] small and very weak and very helpless. And I'll even grant there's some truth
[35:00] And I'll even grant there's some truth to that. We can't go from one to a
[35:02] to that. We can't go from one to a thousand, you know, in in an hour.
[35:05] thousand, you know, in in an hour. But you can go from one to 1.1, you
[35:08] But you can go from one to 1.1, you know? Do it and the next step will open
[35:11] know? Do it and the next step will open up and the next and the next.
[35:13] up and the next and the next. One of the examples that I gave, I'll
[35:15] One of the examples that I gave, I'll just share here again, that
[35:17] just share here again, that when I know at times that I'm in
[35:19] when I know at times that I'm in spiritual desolation and I'm in my
[35:21] spiritual desolation and I'm in my office just working or whatever I'm
[35:23] office just working or whatever I'm doing,
[35:24] doing, I know this is not a time for me to be
[35:26] I know this is not a time for me to be alone. Yes. So, I'll get my water
[35:29] alone. Yes. So, I'll get my water bottle. I live in Colorado, we all have
[35:31] bottle. I live in Colorado, we all have them there because it's so dry.
[35:34] them there because it's so dry. And I'll walk down to the common area
[35:36] And I'll walk down to the common area where the water dispensary is and and
[35:38] where the water dispensary is and and refill it. And I do that because I know
[35:40] refill it. And I do that because I know I'm going to meet someone, we're going
[35:41] I'm going to meet someone, we're going to talk a bit and and so on.
[35:44] to talk a bit and and so on. So,
[35:46] So, as you do these things, now that's about
[35:48] as you do these things, now that's about us. Can you even call that penance? I
[35:50] us. Can you even call that penance? I don't think so.
[35:53] But it it's
[35:54] But it it's um
[35:55] um that's why I say I've become shameless
[35:57] that's why I say I've become shameless with this, too. It doesn't matter how
[35:58] with this, too. It doesn't matter how small the step is. But don't simply sit
[36:02] small the step is. But don't simply sit in the isolation and havingness of the
[36:03] in the isolation and havingness of the desolation. Maybe smile at that person
[36:06] desolation. Maybe smile at that person when you have no desire to smile at that
[36:08] when you have no desire to smile at that person.
[36:09] person. That book that person has needed from
[36:11] That book that person has needed from you for the past week, get out of your
[36:13] you for the past week, get out of your room and give it to what whatever it is,
[36:15] room and give it to what whatever it is, these small steps,
[36:16] these small steps, they have really great power. Yes.
[36:19] they have really great power. Yes. You know, I shared one story that was
[36:21] You know, I shared one story that was the most beautiful, I think, I've ever
[36:23] the most beautiful, I think, I've ever heard along these lines. Um
[36:26] heard along these lines. Um It was a retreatant
[36:27] It was a retreatant who at the end of the retreat wanted to
[36:31] who at the end of the retreat wanted to approach me and share something he was
[36:32] approach me and share something he was very happy about.
[36:34] very happy about. And so
[36:35] And so would you be willing I sure love to.
[36:37] would you be willing I sure love to. I didn't hit the snooze bar this
[36:39] I didn't hit the snooze bar this morning.
[36:40] morning. Mhm.
[36:41] Mhm. I didn't know what he meant. Um
[36:44] I didn't know what he meant. Um so he explained. He said for years now
[36:47] so he explained. He said for years now every morning when the alarm rings I hit
[36:49] every morning when the alarm rings I hit the snooze bar. Now there's a certain
[36:50] the snooze bar. Now there's a certain discouragement probably in that.
[36:52] discouragement probably in that. Right.
[36:53] Right. And there was a light in his eyes this
[36:54] And there was a light in his eyes this morning I didn't hit the snooze bar. It
[36:56] morning I didn't hit the snooze bar. It was like the first step of the opening
[36:59] was like the first step of the opening to a new way of life. So that these
[37:01] to a new way of life. So that these small steps can have very great power. I
[37:04] small steps can have very great power. I can tell a story on rule six that just
[37:06] can tell a story on rule six that just happened to me within the last month or
[37:07] happened to me within the last month or so. I I was in a place of real
[37:09] so. I I was in a place of real discouragement about an
[37:11] discouragement about an an old wound in my heart that was
[37:13] an old wound in my heart that was showing itself again.
[37:15] showing itself again. And my pattern is
[37:18] And my pattern is I beat myself up about it. Why is this
[37:21] I beat myself up about it. Why is this coming back again? Why is this coming
[37:23] coming back again? Why is this coming back again? I went to bed very
[37:25] back again? I went to bed very discouraged. Uh very down. And it was
[37:28] discouraged. Uh very down. And it was about 4:00 a.m. I woke up in just a I
[37:32] about 4:00 a.m. I woke up in just a I was my brain was all of a sudden wide
[37:34] was my brain was all of a sudden wide awake. I knew I wasn't going back to
[37:36] awake. I knew I wasn't going back to sleep but I was in a state of deep
[37:37] sleep but I was in a state of deep discouragement.
[37:39] discouragement. And I just heard pray.
[37:42] And I just heard pray. And it was a it was like like a
[37:45] And it was a it was like like a up man up pray. Like oh okay.
[37:50] up man up pray. Like oh okay. So I I I got up. I put my little
[37:52] So I I I got up. I put my little headlamp on not to bother my wife in the
[37:54] headlamp on not to bother my wife in the bed. Uh she's still asleep and I I
[37:56] bed. Uh she's still asleep and I I grabbed my journal and I just started
[37:58] grabbed my journal and I just started writing out what I was feeling. And as I
[38:01] writing out what I was feeling. And as I was writing it out it became more and
[38:03] was writing it out it became more and more evident what I am going through
[38:05] more evident what I am going through right now is I'm I'm under some attack
[38:08] right now is I'm I'm under some attack here. This is a desolation I'm I'm in.
[38:11] here. This is a desolation I'm I'm in. And I was sinking quick.
[38:13] And I was sinking quick. And the image was Peter walking on the
[38:15] And the image was Peter walking on the water takes his eyes off the Lord and
[38:17] water takes his eyes off the Lord and he's down.
[38:19] he's down. And then there was I I when I realized
[38:21] And then there was I I when I realized oh I know where I am now. I'm in a time
[38:24] oh I know where I am now. I'm in a time of desolation. I am sinking.
[38:26] of desolation. I am sinking. Then there was the cry, "Lord, save me."
[38:28] Then there was the cry, "Lord, save me." It was that was Lord, save me. I'm
[38:30] It was that was Lord, save me. I'm sinking.
[38:31] sinking. And it was
[38:33] And it was it was immediate. There was a There was
[38:35] it was immediate. There was a There was a
[38:36] a He He It's like he reached in there and
[38:39] He He It's like he reached in there and pulled me out. And he said, "Let me show
[38:40] pulled me out. And he said, "Let me show you what's happening to you."
[38:42] you what's happening to you." And And I saw this wound in my heart
[38:45] And And I saw this wound in my heart that had been causing this pain in my
[38:47] that had been causing this pain in my life throughout the day.
[38:48] life throughout the day. And And
[38:50] And And he showed me how
[38:53] he showed me how how wounds get glorified.
[38:55] how wounds get glorified. He showed And he said, "This is the path
[38:56] He showed And he said, "This is the path you're on. This is the path you're
[38:58] you're on. This is the path you're opening this wound to me. This wound
[39:00] opening this wound to me. This wound will shine with glory." And it was as if
[39:03] will shine with glory." And it was as if as he reached in there to show me to
[39:04] as he reached in there to show me to pull me out with his hand, it was as if
[39:06] pull me out with his hand, it was as if he showed me his hand with the glorified
[39:09] he showed me his hand with the glorified wound. And with within it was a It was a
[39:12] wound. And with within it was a It was a change so quick It was one of the most
[39:13] change so quick It was one of the most rapid switches from desolation to
[39:16] rapid switches from desolation to consolation that I that I have in my
[39:18] consolation that I that I have in my memory.
[39:19] memory. And it just happened within the month.
[39:21] And it just happened within the month. And it was so evident that it was
[39:23] And it was so evident that it was desolation and in the crying out
[39:26] desolation and in the crying out uh it was so evident the switch was so
[39:28] uh it was so evident the switch was so quick from desolation to consolation. I
[39:30] quick from desolation to consolation. I felt so loved. I felt so known. I felt
[39:35] felt so loved. I felt so known. I felt so seen. And the word The proper word is
[39:39] so seen. And the word The proper word is consoled. I felt so consoled.
[39:41] consoled. I felt so consoled. Absolutely. And the enemy had just been
[39:43] Absolutely. And the enemy had just been after me with with vengeance to to make
[39:46] after me with with vengeance to to make me feel so horrible. And I thought there
[39:48] me feel so horrible. And I thought there was no way out. I'm sinking and there's
[39:50] was no way out. I'm sinking and there's no way out of this. And then I But I
[39:52] no way out of this. And then I But I have a savior. There is a way out. He
[39:53] have a savior. There is a way out. He came to undo the work of the enemy. I'm
[39:55] came to undo the work of the enemy. I'm crying out. I cried out.
[39:58] crying out. I cried out. It's real I felt the love of my savior
[40:00] It's real I felt the love of my savior so pointedly. Mhm. But it was It began
[40:03] so pointedly. Mhm. But it was It began with
[40:04] with up, man. Pray.
[40:06] up, man. Pray. Uh there were There was a voice that
[40:07] Uh there were There was a voice that broke through.
[40:09] broke through. Um and I would Isn't that rule six? It's
[40:12] Um and I would Isn't that rule six? It's very much rule six.
[40:13] very much rule six. The first thought that comes to me is,
[40:15] The first thought that comes to me is, imagine if you didn't know the rules.
[40:17] imagine if you didn't know the rules. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you could have
[40:19] Yeah. Yeah. You know, you could have believed that lie that
[40:20] believed that lie that I would have sank. It I would have sunk.
[40:23] I would have sank. It I would have sunk. So, that's that's
[40:24] So, that's that's sank and sunk.
[40:26] sank and sunk. That's it's a beautiful illustration of
[40:28] That's it's a beautiful illustration of what we're saying that the rules can
[40:30] what we're saying that the rules can make such a big change in our lives. I
[40:33] make such a big change in our lives. I want to address one thing and then I'd
[40:34] want to address one thing and then I'd like to share a story or two.
[40:35] like to share a story or two. Please.
[40:36] Please. Um
[40:38] Um And yes, that is exactly rule six. What
[40:40] And yes, that is exactly rule six. What you did was you did two of the things
[40:42] you did was you did two of the things that Ignatius disc um invites us to do
[40:46] that Ignatius disc um invites us to do in rule six, to reject the desolation.
[40:50] in rule six, to reject the desolation. The one is to pray. Simple prayer
[40:52] The one is to pray. Simple prayer petition, just ask for help.
[40:54] petition, just ask for help. And then the writing is a very rich way
[40:56] And then the writing is a very rich way to examine what's going on. And what you
[40:58] to examine what's going on. And what you described happening as I write as I
[41:00] described happening as I write as I wrote what I'm experiencing
[41:03] wrote what I'm experiencing I got understanding and clarity. That's
[41:06] I got understanding and clarity. That's I do that a lot, too. I mean, like you,
[41:08] I do that a lot, too. I mean, like you, I'm a writer and writing really helps
[41:09] I'm a writer and writing really helps me.
[41:11] me. The story I want to share though is um I
[41:13] The story I want to share though is um I had I shared the rules with uh a group.
[41:17] had I shared the rules with uh a group. And a woman wrote to me afterwards, and
[41:20] And a woman wrote to me afterwards, and um it was this is a rule two thing,
[41:21] um it was this is a rule two thing, really.
[41:23] really. But just to show the difference it can
[41:24] But just to show the difference it can make. So, she said, I would I would hear
[41:27] make. So, she said, I would I would hear this have these thoughts, you know, that
[41:30] this have these thoughts, you know, that you know, Lord, you want me to be here
[41:32] you know, Lord, you want me to be here and I'm here, whatever the nuance is. I
[41:34] and I'm here, whatever the nuance is. I I fritter time away. Um I'm too
[41:36] I fritter time away. Um I'm too self-indulgent. My prayer is not what it
[41:39] self-indulgent. My prayer is not what it ought to be.
[41:40] ought to be. I don't reach out to serve and love
[41:42] I don't reach out to serve and love others in the way that I should as I'm
[41:43] others in the way that I should as I'm living my vocation.
[41:46] living my vocation. And she said, I thought that that was
[41:47] And she said, I thought that that was God's voice. Mhm. That's what God was
[41:50] God's voice. Mhm. That's what God was saying. And you can hear the heaviness
[41:52] saying. And you can hear the heaviness of that. And for her to learn in the
[41:54] of that. And for her to learn in the light of rule two,
[41:55] light of rule two, Game changer. that yeah, it's not God's
[41:58] Game changer. that yeah, it's not God's voice. That's the enemy's voice and it
[42:00] voice. That's the enemy's voice and it is to be rejected. That just
[42:02] is to be rejected. That just revolutionized everything in her
[42:04] revolutionized everything in her spiritual life. So, we've just mentioned
[42:06] spiritual life. So, we've just mentioned a couple of the rules. You can imagine
[42:08] a couple of the rules. You can imagine if you know all 14 and how much they can
[42:10] if you know all 14 and how much they can do.
[42:11] do. Can
[42:11] Can can we summarize the remaining seven?
[42:14] can we summarize the remaining seven? Rule seven, Ignatius gives
[42:15] Rule seven, Ignatius gives eight. Ignatius gives us a set of
[42:17] eight. Ignatius gives us a set of thoughts that will help us reject
[42:19] thoughts that will help us reject spiritual desolation, to remember that
[42:21] spiritual desolation, to remember that this is within God's loving providence,
[42:24] this is within God's loving providence, and he permits it so that as we resist,
[42:26] and he permits it so that as we resist, we grow in the ability to resist, and
[42:28] we grow in the ability to resist, and that we can resist desolation, cuz God
[42:31] that we can resist desolation, cuz God always gives us the grace that we need.
[42:33] always gives us the grace that we need. Rule eight, the call to be patient, to
[42:36] Rule eight, the call to be patient, to stay the course in time of spiritual
[42:38] stay the course in time of spiritual desolation.
[42:40] desolation. Lord, I promised you 30 minutes of
[42:41] Lord, I promised you 30 minutes of prayer. I'm not ending at 29. I'm going
[42:44] prayer. I'm not ending at 29. I'm going to give you the full time, whatever.
[42:46] to give you the full time, whatever. Um and then the thought that helps us to
[42:48] Um and then the thought that helps us to do that, remember
[42:50] do that, remember the lie of desolation tells you, if
[42:52] the lie of desolation tells you, if we're not discerning,
[42:54] we're not discerning, this is just going to go on and on and
[42:56] this is just going to go on and on and on. And in the face of that, remember
[42:58] on. And in the face of that, remember that consolation will be coming back in
[43:00] that consolation will be coming back in a lot sooner than the desolation wants
[43:02] a lot sooner than the desolation wants us to believe.
[43:04] us to believe. Rule nine, Ignatius addresses the
[43:06] Rule nine, Ignatius addresses the question, why does a God who loves us
[43:07] question, why does a God who loves us and whom we're we love and are trying to
[43:10] and whom we're we love and are trying to serve, why does he permit us to go
[43:12] serve, why does he permit us to go through the darkness of desolation?
[43:13] through the darkness of desolation? Everybody faces that question. Why,
[43:15] Everybody faces that question. Why, Lord, why? Why? Why? Because and
[43:18] Lord, why? Why? Why? Because and Ignatius details three different kinds
[43:20] Ignatius details three different kinds of fruits that God will want to give.
[43:22] of fruits that God will want to give. The basic answer is that God permits
[43:25] The basic answer is that God permits this because if we reject reject it, we
[43:28] this because if we reject reject it, we we are discerning,
[43:30] we are discerning, and we don't give in to it, then we grow
[43:31] and we don't give in to it, then we grow in beautiful ways in the spiritual life.
[43:34] in beautiful ways in the spiritual life. Some growth in the spiritual life comes
[43:36] Some growth in the spiritual life comes through the joy of spiritual
[43:37] through the joy of spiritual consolation, but some growth normally
[43:40] consolation, but some growth normally will come through the struggle with
[43:42] will come through the struggle with spiritual desolation, and we're getting
[43:44] spiritual desolation, and we're getting stronger as we do that.
[43:46] stronger as we do that. Rule 10, you don't
[43:47] Rule 10, you don't Can can I pause there for a minute? I
[43:48] Can can I pause there for a minute? I think this is important for our audience
[43:50] think this is important for our audience to hear that God never causes the
[43:52] to hear that God never causes the desolation.
[43:54] desolation. He allows it, but does not cause it. Can
[43:56] He allows it, but does not cause it. Can you Can you just clarify that for us?
[43:59] you Can you just clarify that for us? Spiritual consolation is a grace.
[44:02] Spiritual consolation is a grace. So, all spiritual consolation is given
[44:05] So, all spiritual consolation is given by God.
[44:06] by God. Spiritual desolation, these discouraging
[44:09] Spiritual desolation, these discouraging lies, is always a tactic of the enemy,
[44:12] lies, is always a tactic of the enemy, like temptation. So, God never gives us
[44:14] like temptation. So, God never gives us spiritual desolation. That it this
[44:16] spiritual desolation. That it this discouragement in the spiritual lies,
[44:18] discouragement in the spiritual lies, heaviness of heart and so forth, that's
[44:21] heaviness of heart and so forth, that's always the work of the enemy. And
[44:22] always the work of the enemy. And therefore, there's only one appropriate
[44:24] therefore, there's only one appropriate response to that.
[44:25] response to that. Reject it. Which is to reject it.
[44:27] Reject it. Which is to reject it. Yeah.
[44:27] Yeah. In rule 10, Ignatius says you don't have
[44:30] In rule 10, Ignatius says you don't have to wait till desolation comes
[44:32] to wait till desolation comes to strengthen yourself against it. When
[44:34] to strengthen yourself against it. When you're in the joy of consolation,
[44:36] you're in the joy of consolation, you can live that in such a way that you
[44:38] you can live that in such a way that you prepare for it, and you store up
[44:40] prepare for it, and you store up strength, and you get your spiritual
[44:42] strength, and you get your spiritual arrows ready to hurl at it. You give the
[44:44] arrows ready to hurl at it. You give the great example of the guy on the bus
[44:47] great example of the guy on the bus and his stance.
[44:49] and his stance. So, here is a a man riding a bus,
[44:52] So, here is a a man riding a bus, and he has a loose hold on the rod, but
[44:55] and he has a loose hold on the rod, but that's all he needs, standing. And he's
[44:57] that's all he needs, standing. And he's on his phone, whatever he's doing on the
[44:59] on his phone, whatever he's doing on the phone.
[45:00] phone. And everything's fine,
[45:02] And everything's fine, except that up ahead is a sharp curve in
[45:05] except that up ahead is a sharp curve in the trajectory of the bus.
[45:07] the trajectory of the bus. When the bus goes into the curve, his
[45:09] When the bus goes into the curve, his loose hold is no longer enough. It
[45:11] loose hold is no longer enough. It slips, he goes sprawling, his surface of
[45:14] slips, he goes sprawling, his surface of the screen of his phone cracks, he rips
[45:17] the screen of his phone cracks, he rips the elbow of his sweat sweater.
[45:19] the elbow of his sweat sweater. He has a briefcase that goes spilling
[45:21] He has a briefcase that goes spilling and so forth. Okay, it's not life or
[45:23] and so forth. Okay, it's not life or death, but it takes a bit to get over
[45:25] death, but it takes a bit to get over it.
[45:25] it. Right. Same man is riding the bus,
[45:28] Right. Same man is riding the bus, on the phone, loose hold, but he looks
[45:30] on the phone, loose hold, but he looks ahead from time to time, sees the sharp
[45:33] ahead from time to time, sees the sharp curve coming,
[45:34] curve coming, widens his stance, tightens his grip on
[45:36] widens his stance, tightens his grip on the rod. The bus goes through the curve,
[45:38] the rod. The bus goes through the curve, and he just sways a little, and that's
[45:40] and he just sways a little, and that's all there is to it. So, rule 10,
[45:42] all there is to it. So, rule 10, spiritually speaking, is prepares us so
[45:45] spiritually speaking, is prepares us so that when desolation does come,
[45:47] that when desolation does come, it's not going to throw us in the way
[45:48] it's not going to throw us in the way that it would otherwise, yeah.
[45:50] that it would otherwise, yeah. Rule 11 puts it all together, the
[45:53] Rule 11 puts it all together, the portrait of the mature person of
[45:55] portrait of the mature person of discernment, humble in consolation,
[45:58] discernment, humble in consolation, uh not stretching ourselves beyond
[46:00] uh not stretching ourselves beyond things we can sustain,
[46:02] things we can sustain, and then trusting in desolation. So,
[46:04] and then trusting in desolation. So, we're neither naively, carelessly high
[46:06] we're neither naively, carelessly high in consolation
[46:08] in consolation nor hopelessly and blindly low in
[46:10] nor hopelessly and blindly low in desolation, but humble in consolation
[46:13] desolation, but humble in consolation trusting in desolation. That's how we go
[46:15] trusting in desolation. That's how we go forward in the spiritual life.
[46:17] forward in the spiritual life. And in the last three rules, Ignatius
[46:19] And in the last three rules, Ignatius shifts to the other tactic of the enemy,
[46:21] shifts to the other tactic of the enemy, which is temptation
[46:23] which is temptation and describes three qualities of how the
[46:25] and describes three qualities of how the enemy does this
[46:27] enemy does this so that knowing those will pick will
[46:29] so that knowing those will pick will pick it up and will do exactly the
[46:31] pick it up and will do exactly the opposite.
[46:32] opposite. Rule 12
[46:34] Rule 12 uh he points out that the enemy is
[46:36] uh he points out that the enemy is fundamentally weak certainly compared to
[46:38] fundamentally weak certainly compared to Christ and his grace in us
[46:40] Christ and his grace in us and the only strength of the enemy's
[46:42] and the only strength of the enemy's temptations
[46:44] temptations is in our weakness in responding to it.
[46:47] is in our weakness in responding to it. Why don't you let your prayer go till
[46:48] Why don't you let your prayer go till later? Yeah, maybe I could. Don't really
[46:50] later? Yeah, maybe I could. Don't really feel like it now. It'll get harder and
[46:52] feel like it now. It'll get harder and harder to pray.
[46:54] harder to pray. Why don't you let your prayer go till
[46:55] Why don't you let your prayer go till later? No, I pray at this time every
[46:57] later? No, I pray at this time every day. I'm praying right now. And the
[46:59] day. I'm praying right now. And the enemy is undone. So stand firm in the
[47:02] enemy is undone. So stand firm in the very beginning of temptation and you
[47:04] very beginning of temptation and you save yourself a lot of
[47:06] save yourself a lot of struggle. Rule 13, the enemy will when
[47:09] struggle. Rule 13, the enemy will when he brings his burdens and anxieties and
[47:11] he brings his burdens and anxieties and doubts and troubles our hearts, he wants
[47:14] doubts and troubles our hearts, he wants us not to say anything to anyone.
[47:16] us not to say anything to anyone. to keep it in the He wants us to keep
[47:17] to keep it in the He wants us to keep that in the dark.
[47:19] that in the dark. Because as long as we do, the game can
[47:22] Because as long as we do, the game can go on. Yeah. So, Ignatius counsel is
[47:25] go on. Yeah. So, Ignatius counsel is find a a wise and competent spiritual
[47:27] find a a wise and competent spiritual person and talk about this. Competent
[47:30] person and talk about this. Competent then that is somebody who's
[47:31] then that is somebody who's knowledgeable in the spiritual life. Can
[47:33] knowledgeable in the spiritual life. Can I give an example of this from my own
[47:35] I give an example of this from my own life? This is again this just very
[47:37] life? This is again this just very recently.
[47:38] recently. Um I've been looking with my spiritual
[47:40] Um I've been looking with my spiritual director at
[47:42] director at a pattern in my life of of thinking
[47:46] a pattern in my life of of thinking the name of the game in existence is
[47:48] the name of the game in existence is king of the mountain. Who's on top?
[47:50] king of the mountain. Who's on top? And it came from getting rather bullied
[47:53] And it came from getting rather bullied by my older brother when I was a boy.
[47:55] by my older brother when I was a boy. Like he was always two years older, he's
[47:57] Like he was always two years older, he's always on top, and and I was always the
[48:00] always on top, and and I was always the little brother, and he was always
[48:02] little brother, and he was always not always, but often not so
[48:05] not always, but often not so kind.
[48:05] kind. I know. So, the paradigm of my existence
[48:08] I know. So, the paradigm of my existence was king of the mountain.
[48:10] was king of the mountain. And
[48:11] And the way you cope with that when you're
[48:13] the way you cope with that when you're in so much pain and being in the bottom
[48:15] in so much pain and being in the bottom of the mountain is you eventually get to
[48:17] of the mountain is you eventually get to be king of the mountain for those who
[48:18] be king of the mountain for those who are younger and smaller and weaker than
[48:20] are younger and smaller and weaker than you.
[48:21] you. And I I just embrace It's not a
[48:22] And I I just embrace It's not a conscious thing, but when I was a boy, I
[48:24] conscious thing, but when I was a boy, I embraced that paradigm.
[48:26] embraced that paradigm. And
[48:28] And I see how because this still this
[48:30] I see how because this still this subconscious attitude is in me, it
[48:32] subconscious attitude is in me, it affects my relations day-to-day. Like,
[48:36] affects my relations day-to-day. Like, um
[48:37] um this was just a maybe 6 months ago, I
[48:38] this was just a maybe 6 months ago, I was in a conversation with someone I had
[48:40] was in a conversation with someone I had just met him,
[48:41] just met him, and
[48:43] and like under the radar, I'm thinking, I
[48:45] like under the radar, I'm thinking, I bet I'm older than he is.
[48:47] bet I'm older than he is. And there was like a
[48:48] And there was like a you know, there's
[48:49] you know, there's I'm on top.
[48:51] I'm on top. And then I found out later in the
[48:52] And then I found out later in the conversation he was 2 years older than I
[48:53] conversation he was 2 years older than I was, and I just went where I shrank.
[48:56] was, and I just went where I shrank. Sure. And I was paying attention to
[48:57] Sure. And I was paying attention to where is that What is that movement in
[48:59] where is that What is that movement in my heart? What is going on?
[49:02] my heart? What is going on? But there was as I'm been taking this to
[49:04] But there was as I'm been taking this to prayer with my spiritual director,
[49:07] prayer with my spiritual director, I had this image of You know, remember
[49:09] I had this image of You know, remember that when the orcs are born Sure. in
[49:11] that when the orcs are born Sure. in Lord of the Rings, they're coming out of
[49:13] Lord of the Rings, they're coming out of the the bowels of the earth?
[49:15] the the bowels of the earth? Like, there was this orc that had been
[49:17] Like, there was this orc that had been hidden way down in my soul,
[49:20] hidden way down in my soul, and I was starting to shine a light on
[49:22] and I was starting to shine a light on it, and he was squirming.
[49:24] it, and he was squirming. He did not want to be exposed.
[49:27] He did not want to be exposed. And knowing that he did not want to
[49:29] And knowing that he did not want to Like, I could
[49:30] Like, I could almost feel him in there. Like, don't
[49:32] almost feel him in there. Like, don't put the light on me. Don't put the light
[49:34] put the light on me. Don't put the light on me. And I'm like, I'm putting the
[49:35] on me. And I'm like, I'm putting the light on you. I'm putting a spotlight on
[49:37] light on you. I'm putting a spotlight on you, cuz I know you don't want to be
[49:39] you, cuz I know you don't want to be exposed, and that
[49:41] exposed, and that if I don't expose you, you'll keep
[49:43] if I don't expose you, you'll keep wreaking havoc in my life. So, the the
[49:46] wreaking havoc in my life. So, the the whole message here in rule Is it 13? 13,
[49:48] whole message here in rule Is it 13? 13, yeah. The light is our friend. The light
[49:51] yeah. The light is our friend. The light is our friend. Put it all in the light.
[49:53] is our friend. Put it all in the light. If you have the sense, "Oh, I'm not
[49:54] If you have the sense, "Oh, I'm not going to tell that to my spiritual
[49:55] going to tell that to my spiritual director." Tell it to your spiritual
[49:56] director." Tell it to your spiritual director.
[49:57] director. You know, um you've mentioned Father
[49:59] You know, um you've mentioned Father John Horn
[50:01] John Horn and there's one thing I've heard him say
[50:03] and there's one thing I've heard him say a a number of times.
[50:05] a a number of times. "Do you want your meeting of spiritual
[50:06] "Do you want your meeting of spiritual direction to be really really really
[50:09] direction to be really really really helpful?" And you can see his facial
[50:11] helpful?" And you can see his facial expressions as he says that.
[50:14] expressions as he says that. "Then talk about the thing you don't
[50:15] "Then talk about the thing you don't want to talk about." Yeah. And that
[50:18] want to talk about." Yeah. And that that's exactly what the Rule 13 is. So,
[50:21] that's exactly what the Rule 13 is. So, if our hearts are heavy and burdened in
[50:23] if our hearts are heavy and burdened in any way in the spiritual life, and if
[50:25] any way in the spiritual life, and if you can find access to somebody who is
[50:28] you can find access to somebody who is properly trained and competent in
[50:30] properly trained and competent in spiritual direction, uh speak with that
[50:32] spiritual direction, uh speak with that person and it can be enormously helpful.
[50:35] person and it can be enormously helpful. Basically, the point is you don't want
[50:37] Basically, the point is you don't want to be alone in trying to live this.
[50:39] to be alone in trying to live this. Yes. And there are many different ways
[50:41] Yes. And there are many different ways to be accompanied. Where spiritual
[50:42] to be accompanied. Where spiritual direction is possible, obviously,
[50:45] direction is possible, obviously, that's wonderful.
[50:46] that's wonderful. Um make a retreat every year. You'll get
[50:49] Um make a retreat every year. You'll get a chance to speak with someone.
[50:51] a chance to speak with someone. Confession is available to everyone. If
[50:53] Confession is available to everyone. If you can find a priest and regularly go
[50:55] you can find a priest and regularly go to that priest, gets to know you, that
[50:58] to that priest, gets to know you, that can be
[50:59] can be there's a big difference between being
[51:01] there's a big difference between being alone in your spiritual life and regular
[51:03] alone in your spiritual life and regular confession with a confessor who gets to
[51:05] confession with a confessor who gets to know you. And maybe even the
[51:07] know you. And maybe even the conversation is brief, but it can be
[51:09] conversation is brief, but it can be enormously helpful.
[51:10] enormously helpful. Spiritual friends.
[51:12] Spiritual friends. Woman told me that uh so, she was a
[51:14] Woman told me that uh so, she was a young mother
[51:16] young mother and she said that she and a group of her
[51:17] and she said that she and a group of her friends, they were all young mothers,
[51:19] friends, they were all young mothers, they would get together for brunch on
[51:21] they would get together for brunch on Saturday.
[51:22] Saturday. And it was just fun being together. But,
[51:24] And it was just fun being together. But, at a certain point, they all knew the
[51:26] at a certain point, they all knew the conversation was going to get to this
[51:28] conversation was going to get to this level. And it was very encouraging and
[51:30] level. And it was very encouraging and helpful uh for them to have that. There
[51:33] helpful uh for them to have that. There may be groups in the parish.
[51:35] may be groups in the parish. And then, husbands and wives.
[51:37] And then, husbands and wives. Where this is possible,
[51:39] Where this is possible, it's only in the married vocation that
[51:41] it's only in the married vocation that that kind of accompaniment is possible.
[51:44] that kind of accompaniment is possible. But, where husbands and wives can share
[51:46] But, where husbands and wives can share this journey together.
[51:48] this journey together. One uh couple told me that they'd both
[51:50] One uh couple told me that they'd both been through these rules
[51:53] been through these rules and they had an agreement that when one
[51:55] and they had an agreement that when one of them realized that he or she was in
[51:57] of them realized that he or she was in spiritual desolation,
[51:59] spiritual desolation, let's say he would text his wife and
[52:02] let's say he would text his wife and just say, "I'm struggling with
[52:03] just say, "I'm struggling with desolation." And she'd be praying with
[52:05] desolation." And she'd be praying with him.
[52:05] him. Beautiful. You know, it's a beautiful
[52:06] Beautiful. You know, it's a beautiful thing. You've written a whole book about
[52:09] thing. You've written a whole book about applying the rules to married life,
[52:11] applying the rules to married life, discernment of spirits in marriage.
[52:12] discernment of spirits in marriage. Wendy and I read this book
[52:14] Wendy and I read this book uh separately and had lots of fruitful
[52:16] uh separately and had lots of fruitful conversation about it. Um I want I want
[52:19] conversation about it. Um I want I want you to get to rule 14, a summary, but
[52:20] you to get to rule 14, a summary, but then could you
[52:21] then could you speak to the application of these rules
[52:23] speak to the application of these rules a little bit more in married life? Sure.
[52:26] a little bit more in married life? Sure. Yeah, sure. Rule 14 is the rule, the
[52:29] Yeah, sure. Rule 14 is the rule, the final rule, in which Ignatius, again, no
[52:31] final rule, in which Ignatius, again, no shame, no surprise, this is just
[52:34] shame, no surprise, this is just means living in a fallen but redeemed
[52:36] means living in a fallen but redeemed and loved world. All of us have some
[52:38] and loved world. All of us have some point of greatest vulnerability to the
[52:41] point of greatest vulnerability to the enemy's discouraging spiritual
[52:43] enemy's discouraging spiritual desolations and temptations. So, if we
[52:46] desolations and temptations. So, if we can learn what that is
[52:48] can learn what that is and then work to strengthen it, then
[52:50] and then work to strengthen it, then really beautiful things happen in the
[52:52] really beautiful things happen in the spiritual life. Well, how do I know what
[52:53] spiritual life. Well, how do I know what that is?
[52:54] that is? Well, if there's a struggle you find
[52:56] Well, if there's a struggle you find yourself saying, "I always get in this
[52:58] yourself saying, "I always get in this situation. Things are going well in my
[53:00] situation. Things are going well in my spiritual life, then this happens and
[53:02] spiritual life, then this happens and the energy just drains away." If you see
[53:05] the energy just drains away." If you see a repeating pattern of something, that's
[53:07] a repeating pattern of something, that's probably pretty close to that area of
[53:09] probably pretty close to that area of vulnerability. Identify it
[53:12] vulnerability. Identify it and then use the spiritual tools to
[53:14] and then use the spiritual tools to strengthen it, and great things happen
[53:16] strengthen it, and great things happen in the spiritual life. So,
[53:18] in the spiritual life. So, apply how how would a married couple
[53:21] apply how how would a married couple take the rules and help allow those
[53:25] take the rules and help allow those rules to help them grow in their own
[53:26] rules to help them grow in their own marital relationship?
[53:28] marital relationship? Well, if I may refer to the book, what I
[53:30] Well, if I may refer to the book, what I do in the book is to we I
[53:33] do in the book is to we I create as it were, but this is the fruit
[53:35] create as it were, but this is the fruit of many years,
[53:36] of many years, um Mark and Anne are a married couple
[53:39] um Mark and Anne are a married couple and they go through everything Ignatius
[53:41] and they go through everything Ignatius describes in the 14 rules. So, there's a
[53:43] describes in the 14 rules. So, there's a chapter for each rule.
[53:45] chapter for each rule. And as they go through it,
[53:49] what I'm doing in the second part of the
[53:50] what I'm doing in the second part of the chapter is to explain what they've just
[53:53] chapter is to explain what they've just been through in the light of the rule.
[53:56] been through in the light of the rule. If I
[53:57] If I you know, anybody, any wife or husband
[53:59] you know, anybody, any wife or husband can go through this. You're 50% of your
[54:01] can go through this. You're 50% of your marriage, and that's a lot of marriage,
[54:03] marriage, and that's a lot of marriage, and a lot of the marriage to get to know
[54:04] and a lot of the marriage to get to know this teaching.
[54:06] this teaching. Where it's possible for husbands and
[54:08] Where it's possible for husbands and wives to do what you and Wendy did,
[54:10] wives to do what you and Wendy did, and that is both go through it. What
[54:13] and that is both go through it. What will happen is what you've described. A
[54:15] will happen is what you've described. A woman told me that she and her husband
[54:16] woman told me that she and her husband were going through this,
[54:18] were going through this, and uh she said, "We're now speaking on
[54:20] and uh she said, "We're now speaking on a level we've never spoken before."
[54:22] a level we've never spoken before." Beautiful.
[54:23] Beautiful. Because now they have language for it,
[54:25] Because now they have language for it, and now they can talk to each other
[54:26] and now they can talk to each other about it.
[54:27] about it. And that will do beautiful things for a
[54:29] And that will do beautiful things for a marriage. Maybe you could describe uh
[54:31] marriage. Maybe you could describe uh what was it like for you and Wendy to do
[54:33] what was it like for you and Wendy to do this?
[54:34] this? Yeah, what what came, I'd say one of the
[54:36] Yeah, what what came, I'd say one of the beautiful fruits of understanding the
[54:38] beautiful fruits of understanding the rules and applying them in married life,
[54:41] rules and applying them in married life, is when Wendy and I are having some kind
[54:43] is when Wendy and I are having some kind of disagreement, and I can see that I'm
[54:46] of disagreement, and I can see that I'm maybe digging my heels in, that I think
[54:48] maybe digging my heels in, that I think I'm I'm right.
[54:52] I'll say, "Okay,
[54:54] I'll say, "Okay, stop, listen,
[54:56] stop, listen, be attentive.
[54:58] be attentive. Whose voice am I listening to right
[55:00] Whose voice am I listening to right now?"
[55:02] now?" And this has been an incredible light
[55:06] And this has been an incredible light in our married life,
[55:08] in our married life, where I have seen and and the language
[55:10] where I have seen and and the language that I've come to use, my spiritual
[55:11] that I've come to use, my spiritual director
[55:13] director probably used this once and I adopted
[55:15] probably used this once and I adopted it. He'll say, "Are you following old
[55:17] it. He'll say, "Are you following old Adam or new Adam?"
[55:19] Adam or new Adam?" Mhm.
[55:20] Mhm. And old Adam, that attitude,
[55:24] And old Adam, that attitude, it's the woman you put here with me.
[55:26] it's the woman you put here with me. It's like at the casting of blame.
[55:28] It's like at the casting of blame. That's classic old Adam.
[55:31] That's classic old Adam. I I don't want to be the one who's wrong
[55:34] I I don't want to be the one who's wrong here. So, I want it to be Wendy who's
[55:36] here. So, I want it to be Wendy who's wrong.
[55:37] wrong. And just to have the wherewithal in the
[55:40] And just to have the wherewithal in the moment, and I can say honestly in
[55:43] moment, and I can say honestly in the early years of my married life, I
[55:45] the early years of my married life, I did not have this wherewithal.
[55:47] did not have this wherewithal. And old Adam would show up
[55:50] And old Adam would show up and I would follow him insisting in my
[55:54] and I would follow him insisting in my rightness about this or that and
[55:56] rightness about this or that and mowing my wife over down like I'm right
[55:59] mowing my wife over down like I'm right and you're wrong.
[56:01] and you're wrong. Uh and and my real attitude, broken
[56:03] Uh and and my real attitude, broken Adam, fallen Adam's real attitude was
[56:05] Adam, fallen Adam's real attitude was I'm right and you're stupid. Mhm. Not
[56:07] I'm right and you're stupid. Mhm. Not that I would ever come out and say that,
[56:09] that I would ever come out and say that, sure, but that's Adam's attitude.
[56:12] sure, but that's Adam's attitude. The rules have given me the ability
[56:15] The rules have given me the ability to be attentive. Whose voice am I
[56:17] to be attentive. Whose voice am I listening to here?
[56:20] And when I when I can humble myself and
[56:23] And when I when I can humble myself and recognize that's old Adam,
[56:25] recognize that's old Adam, then I can invite new Adam.
[56:28] then I can invite new Adam. Okay, Lord. And some It's not often that
[56:30] Okay, Lord. And some It's not often that It's not I'm not there yet where often
[56:32] It's not I'm not there yet where often when I'm in the heat of a painful
[56:34] when I'm in the heat of a painful conversation that I can have the
[56:36] conversation that I can have the wherewithal, but I can say to Wendy,
[56:39] wherewithal, but I can say to Wendy, Wendy, I
[56:40] Wendy, I I I just need some time to to cool off a
[56:42] I I just need some time to to cool off a little bit, to to pray, to have some
[56:44] little bit, to to pray, to have some time to myself to discern what's really
[56:46] time to myself to discern what's really going on here. We're stuck in a pattern
[56:47] going on here. We're stuck in a pattern here. We're not breaking through. It's
[56:49] here. We're not breaking through. It's This is not going to be fruitful if we
[56:50] This is not going to be fruitful if we keep this conversation going.
[56:52] keep this conversation going. And she'll say that to me sometimes,
[56:54] And she'll say that to me sometimes, I'll say that to her sometimes, and we
[56:55] I'll say that to her sometimes, and we know what that means. It means we need
[56:57] know what that means. It means we need to have our own quiet time of prayerful
[57:00] to have our own quiet time of prayerful listening and discerning what's going
[57:03] listening and discerning what's going on.
[57:04] on. And again, language I got from my
[57:05] And again, language I got from my spiritual director, he'll say,
[57:07] spiritual director, he'll say, uh do the do the instant replay. Ask the
[57:10] uh do the do the instant replay. Ask the Lord to show you the instant replay of
[57:12] Lord to show you the instant replay of why that conversation was going down the
[57:14] why that conversation was going down the tubes.
[57:15] tubes. And when I take that to prayer, I say,
[57:16] And when I take that to prayer, I say, "Lord, show me the instant replay."
[57:19] "Lord, show me the instant replay." I can see where
[57:20] I can see where the enemy's voice comes in. Old Adam is
[57:23] the enemy's voice comes in. Old Adam is there and I followed him.
[57:26] there and I followed him. And I can come to Wendy and I can say,
[57:28] And I can come to Wendy and I can say, "Wendy, please forgive me. Here's what
[57:29] "Wendy, please forgive me. Here's what I'm seeing in prayer.
[57:31] I'm seeing in prayer. Uh this This is when old Adam came in
[57:34] Uh this This is when old Adam came in and I followed him. Please forgive me. I
[57:36] and I followed him. Please forgive me. I want to be new Adam to you and and I I I
[57:39] want to be new Adam to you and and I I I ask you please to
[57:40] ask you please to show me mercy and and and be patient
[57:43] show me mercy and and and be patient with me, but this is what I desire. And
[57:44] with me, but this is what I desire. And I have seen and and I am getting better
[57:47] I have seen and and I am getting better to the point where in the in a
[57:48] to the point where in the in a conversation that has been difficult, I
[57:50] conversation that has been difficult, I can just maybe hold Wendy's hand and
[57:52] can just maybe hold Wendy's hand and she'll know I just need 30 seconds to
[57:54] she'll know I just need 30 seconds to myself where I'll stop and I'll just try
[57:56] myself where I'll stop and I'll just try to listen.
[57:57] to listen. And that can change the entire tone and
[58:00] And that can change the entire tone and direction of a conversation.
[58:02] direction of a conversation. From one that's inspired by my
[58:04] From one that's inspired by my brokenness or her brokenness to one
[58:07] brokenness or her brokenness to one that's inspired by
[58:09] that's inspired by Christ in us.
[58:11] Christ in us. It's a beautiful thing and I can easily
[58:14] It's a beautiful thing and I can easily imagine what that does for a marriage.
[58:16] imagine what that does for a marriage. Oh. You know, any marriage actually,
[58:18] Oh. You know, any marriage actually, what it would do.
[58:19] what it would do. What you're actually describing there is
[58:22] What you're actually describing there is um
[58:23] um the peace that Ignatius adds to these
[58:26] the peace that Ignatius adds to these rules for discernment, which is the
[58:27] rules for discernment, which is the examine prayer.
[58:29] examine prayer. So that we are reviewing our spirit The
[58:31] So that we are reviewing our spirit The instant replay is great. That's a great
[58:33] instant replay is great. That's a great image for that. We're reviewing that
[58:35] image for that. We're reviewing that spiritual experience and then we see
[58:37] spiritual experience and then we see more deeply in it after the fact. And
[58:39] more deeply in it after the fact. And out of that we can make decisions for
[58:41] out of that we can make decisions for the future. So that's another piece that
[58:44] the future. So that's another piece that is really helpful in trying to live
[58:46] is really helpful in trying to live this. It's a lifesaver. Mhm. Um, it's a
[58:49] this. It's a lifesaver. Mhm. Um, it's a marriage saver. I mean, and and it's
[58:51] marriage saver. I mean, and and it's kind of a double-edged sword in that
[58:54] kind of a double-edged sword in that you're getting this light and you're
[58:55] you're getting this light and you're seeing the hope of coming out of a
[58:57] seeing the hope of coming out of a pattern that you never thought you could
[58:59] pattern that you never thought you could get out of. So liberating. But at the
[59:01] get out of. So liberating. But at the same time, with that light on,
[59:04] same time, with that light on, you're looking back at for us 27 years
[59:06] you're looking back at for us 27 years of marriage and you're like, "Oh my
[59:07] of marriage and you're like, "Oh my gosh, how many times I hurt you because
[59:11] gosh, how many times I hurt you because I didn't I was following that wrong
[59:13] I didn't I was following that wrong voice and I didn't have the wherewithal
[59:15] voice and I didn't have the wherewithal to know where that was coming from and I
[59:17] to know where that was coming from and I didn't have the wherewithal to open to
[59:19] didn't have the wherewithal to open to God's mercy."
[59:20] God's mercy." So you're actually you're making again
[59:22] So you're actually you're making again very powerfully
[59:24] very powerfully our initial point that learn the rules.
[59:27] our initial point that learn the rules. Yeah, learn the That's about as simply
[59:29] Yeah, learn the That's about as simply as I can say it. Please learn them. And
[59:32] as I can say it. Please learn them. And look at what Christopher is just sharing
[59:34] look at what Christopher is just sharing and you'll find things like this
[59:35] and you'll find things like this happening in your life as well.
[59:37] happening in your life as well. You know, we have the sense of the enemy
[59:39] You know, we have the sense of the enemy as being very powerful and ourselves as
[59:42] as being very powerful and ourselves as very weak.
[59:43] very weak. Uh we feel like I'm in the grip of this
[59:45] Uh we feel like I'm in the grip of this discouragement in my spiritual life and
[59:48] discouragement in my spiritual life and I don't know how to
[59:49] I don't know how to you know, can it be shaken even and
[59:51] you know, can it be shaken even and these temptations and we find out when
[59:54] these temptations and we find out when we apply this wisdom that the enemy is
[59:56] we apply this wisdom that the enemy is weaker than we think.
[59:58] weaker than we think. Because we have the power of Christ in
[59:59] Because we have the power of Christ in us, you know, the power of of his grace.
[01:00:02] us, you know, the power of of his grace. So, I'll say this to to anyone
[01:00:04] So, I'll say this to to anyone listening. If you find that you've been
[01:00:06] listening. If you find that you've been living in spiritual desolation for some
[01:00:09] living in spiritual desolation for some time,
[01:00:11] time, know for sure
[01:00:13] know for sure that God is calling you to freedom from
[01:00:15] that God is calling you to freedom from that.
[01:00:16] that. Mhm. Amen. And that there is a path
[01:00:18] Mhm. Amen. And that there is a path toward that freedom and you can find it
[01:00:20] toward that freedom and you can find it in these 14 rules.
[01:00:21] in these 14 rules. Please learn them.
[01:00:23] Please learn them. Can you say a word about you said in
[01:00:26] Can you say a word about you said in class the other day how you've seen a
[01:00:27] class the other day how you've seen a transformation over the time you've been
[01:00:29] transformation over the time you've been doing this from rules being something
[01:00:31] doing this from rules being something negatively perceived to rules being
[01:00:33] negatively perceived to rules being something positively perceived. And then
[01:00:35] something positively perceived. And then before we go, we have to talk about your
[01:00:37] before we go, we have to talk about your experiences with J- JP II. Then we have
[01:00:39] experiences with J- JP II. Then we have to wrap it up. Okay. Um
[01:00:42] to wrap it up. Okay. Um Okay, I got thinking about John Paul II.
[01:00:44] Okay, I got thinking about John Paul II. The rules, the rules.
[01:00:45] The rules, the rules. So, what was it you wanted
[01:00:46] So, what was it you wanted You said
[01:00:47] You said when you started doing this work, rules
[01:00:49] when you started doing this work, rules were considered something negative.
[01:00:52] were considered something negative. Yeah, so, you know, this is our American
[01:00:54] Yeah, so, you know, this is our American ethos, you know, don't tread on me and
[01:00:56] ethos, you know, don't tread on me and live free or die and no taxation without
[01:00:59] live free or die and no taxation without representation.
[01:01:00] representation. Right. Right. And just do it and all the
[01:01:01] Right. Right. And just do it and all the rest of that. So, in the 1980s when I
[01:01:04] rest of that. So, in the 1980s when I was first giving talks on this,
[01:01:06] was first giving talks on this, uh I was a little shy of that word
[01:01:08] uh I was a little shy of that word rules. I tended maybe to call them
[01:01:10] rules. I tended maybe to call them practical guidelines and so forth.
[01:01:12] practical guidelines and so forth. But I really have watched that change.
[01:01:15] But I really have watched that change. Uh rules are becoming very attractive to
[01:01:17] Uh rules are becoming very attractive to people because there is such chaos
[01:01:19] people because there is such chaos around us
[01:01:21] around us that if somebody can say look, here are
[01:01:23] that if somebody can say look, here are some simple practical rules, follow
[01:01:25] some simple practical rules, follow these, you'll get where you want to get
[01:01:26] these, you'll get where you want to get in life.
[01:01:27] in life. Um I'll just give one instance of this.
[01:01:30] Um I'll just give one instance of this. If you
[01:01:31] If you uh go on Amazon books and just do a
[01:01:34] uh go on Amazon books and just do a search for the word rules,
[01:01:36] search for the word rules, the answer that will come up or what
[01:01:38] the answer that will come up or what will come up, it will say over 70,000
[01:01:41] will come up, it will say over 70,000 titles.
[01:01:41] titles. Wow. So Amazon at a certain point
[01:01:44] Wow. So Amazon at a certain point doesn't keep numbering things. When it
[01:01:45] doesn't keep numbering things. When it gets beyond that, it just says more than
[01:01:47] gets beyond that, it just says more than that. Rules, you know. We need There are
[01:01:50] that. Rules, you know. We need There are rules for dating, rules for dealing with
[01:01:53] rules for dating, rules for dealing with your boss, there are rules for
[01:01:54] your boss, there are rules for everything.
[01:01:55] everything. And 500 years ago, Ignatius came up with
[01:01:58] And 500 years ago, Ignatius came up with these 14 short, essential, practical,
[01:02:00] these 14 short, essential, practical, usable rules
[01:02:02] usable rules to navigate this daily up and down
[01:02:04] to navigate this daily up and down spiritual experience. Father, I'm so
[01:02:06] spiritual experience. Father, I'm so grateful to you for how you have broken
[01:02:08] grateful to you for how you have broken open these rules for me. That it's been
[01:02:10] open these rules for me. That it's been invaluable.
[01:02:11] invaluable. But uh we'd be remiss if we didn't talk
[01:02:14] But uh we'd be remiss if we didn't talk for our audience about your personal
[01:02:16] for our audience about your personal experience. When you were a deacon in
[01:02:17] experience. When you were a deacon in Rome, you served mass with the Holy
[01:02:19] Rome, you served mass with the Holy Father. I did. And I'm just learning
[01:02:21] Father. I did. And I'm just learning today that you also were in attendance
[01:02:23] today that you also were in attendance for some of the Wednesday audience
[01:02:25] for some of the Wednesday audience addresses on the Theology of the Body.
[01:02:27] addresses on the Theology of the Body. That's right.
[01:02:28] That's right. So I'll I'll mention that first. So uh I
[01:02:31] So I'll I'll mention that first. So uh I was there. I'm just remembering one time
[01:02:34] was there. I'm just remembering one time I was there.
[01:02:35] I was there. I had visitors. So of course you take
[01:02:37] I had visitors. So of course you take them to a papal audience. And they're
[01:02:38] them to a papal audience. And they're there with their cameras and
[01:02:40] there with their cameras and and everything. And just delighted to
[01:02:43] and everything. And just delighted to see the Pope.
[01:02:44] see the Pope. And then John Paul the Second gave this
[01:02:46] And then John Paul the Second gave this talk. It was one of the talks on the
[01:02:48] talk. It was one of the talks on the Theology of the Body. It went completely
[01:02:50] Theology of the Body. It went completely over the head of everyone who was
[01:02:52] over the head of everyone who was present. He was very obviously not
[01:02:54] present. He was very obviously not speaking to the people present there,
[01:02:56] speaking to the people present there, but
[01:02:57] but giving something to the entirety of the
[01:02:59] giving something to the entirety of the church. So from the perspective of the
[01:03:01] church. So from the perspective of the tourist, Yep. nothing
[01:03:04] tourist, Yep. nothing nothing went in. And it was only much
[01:03:06] nothing went in. And it was only much later that I realized finally when some
[01:03:08] later that I realized finally when some of these got published, you know, what
[01:03:09] of these got published, you know, what I'd actually heard when I was there. But
[01:03:11] I'd actually heard when I was there. But that's my memory. Has nobody Nobody
[01:03:13] that's my memory. Has nobody Nobody could follow this.
[01:03:15] could follow this. And then the other thing was yeah, I a
[01:03:17] And then the other thing was yeah, I a deacon in Rome when John Paul the
[01:03:20] deacon in Rome when John Paul the second. So I was ordained a deacon in um
[01:03:24] second. So I was ordained a deacon in um September of 1978.
[01:03:27] September of 1978. And John Paul was elected in October of
[01:03:29] And John Paul was elected in October of 1978. I was actually there in the square
[01:03:31] 1978. I was actually there in the square when he was
[01:03:32] when he was Oh, wow. Yeah.
[01:03:35] Oh, wow. Yeah. We were at the opening mass for the
[01:03:37] We were at the opening mass for the school year.
[01:03:37] school year. of history. Well
[01:03:39] of history. Well Amazing. It was the opening mass for the
[01:03:41] Amazing. It was the opening mass for the school year.
[01:03:43] school year. And um
[01:03:44] And um but word got around during the mass, the
[01:03:46] but word got around during the mass, the way things do in Rome, that the Pope had
[01:03:48] way things do in Rome, that the Pope had been elected. Suddenly everybody just
[01:03:50] been elected. Suddenly everybody just emptied the church. And we got onto
[01:03:52] emptied the church. And we got onto these crowded sagging buses and got down
[01:03:55] these crowded sagging buses and got down to St. Peter's Square. So I was there
[01:03:56] to St. Peter's Square. So I was there when he came out and
[01:03:58] when he came out and gosh. And then um
[01:04:00] gosh. And then um three times I served for him as deacon
[01:04:03] three times I served for him as deacon at mass, twice in St. Peter's and once
[01:04:06] at mass, twice in St. Peter's and once at the Jesuit church of the Gesù.
[01:04:09] at the Jesuit church of the Gesù. And just one memory of that, um I would
[01:04:11] And just one memory of that, um I would shamelessly
[01:04:13] shamelessly watch him. Just this the the sight of
[01:04:15] watch him. Just this the the sight of this man
[01:04:17] this man praying so deeply with, you know, people
[01:04:19] praying so deeply with, you know, people all around him.
[01:04:21] all around him. But he also had the custom or the the
[01:04:23] But he also had the custom or the the habit, he would at periodically suddenly
[01:04:25] habit, he would at periodically suddenly look up.
[01:04:27] look up. And you just uh with a gaze of just
[01:04:29] And you just uh with a gaze of just piercing awareness. He was just taking
[01:04:31] piercing awareness. He was just taking in everything around him and you knew
[01:04:33] in everything around him and you knew it.
[01:04:33] it. And when he'd do that, I'd just
[01:04:35] And when he'd do that, I'd just immediately drop drop my gaze.
[01:04:37] immediately drop drop my gaze. But as soon as he went back to his um
[01:04:40] But as soon as he went back to his um his his prayer, I'd immediately start
[01:04:41] his his prayer, I'd immediately start watching him again. It was just a
[01:04:43] watching him again. It was just a wonderful thing just to watch this man
[01:04:46] wonderful thing just to watch this man at prayer. It was very, very uplifting.
[01:04:48] at prayer. It was very, very uplifting. When he was elected, uh
[01:04:50] When he was elected, uh it was a powerful thing because
[01:04:53] it was a powerful thing because we we we had known Paul the sixth. I did
[01:04:55] we we we had known Paul the sixth. I did serve for Paul the sixth once, too, and
[01:04:57] serve for Paul the sixth once, too, and there's a beautiful experience there.
[01:05:00] there's a beautiful experience there. But uh in the last years of his
[01:05:02] But uh in the last years of his pontificate, he was very frail. And they
[01:05:05] pontificate, he was very frail. And they had kind of had to help him walk
[01:05:06] had kind of had to help him walk upstairs and things like that. And then
[01:05:08] upstairs and things like that. And then you had, I think he was 57 or 59, John
[01:05:11] you had, I think he was 57 or 59, John Paul the second, when he was an athletic
[01:05:13] Paul the second, when he was an athletic and you'd see him with energy just
[01:05:15] and you'd see him with energy just walking. It was electric. It just Oh,
[01:05:17] walking. It was electric. It just Oh, beautiful. And then his opening mass,
[01:05:19] beautiful. And then his opening mass, you know, with open wide the doors to
[01:05:21] you know, with open wide the doors to Christ. That that was a powerful thing,
[01:05:23] Christ. That that was a powerful thing, too.
[01:05:24] too. All the years of his pontificate
[01:05:26] All the years of his pontificate I watched as much of course in Rome I
[01:05:28] I watched as much of course in Rome I had a chance as you know to be there.
[01:05:30] had a chance as you know to be there. But later when I was back in this
[01:05:32] But later when I was back in this country I would watch as much as I could
[01:05:34] country I would watch as much as I could of his apostolic trips and things like
[01:05:36] of his apostolic trips and things like that
[01:05:37] that and it would often move me to tears. I
[01:05:39] and it would often move me to tears. I remember
[01:05:40] remember watching the World Youth Day in Denver
[01:05:43] watching the World Youth Day in Denver and I think it was the time in the
[01:05:44] and I think it was the time in the stadium
[01:05:45] stadium and just found myself repeatedly moved
[01:05:48] and just found myself repeatedly moved to tears and I said what what why is
[01:05:50] to tears and I said what what why is this touching me so deeply?
[01:05:52] this touching me so deeply? And I realized it was because
[01:05:55] And I realized it was because we felt even at a distance through the
[01:05:58] we felt even at a distance through the camera
[01:05:59] camera that we had a father. Yes. And uh
[01:06:03] that we had a father. Yes. And uh I think everybody felt that. So it was
[01:06:05] I think everybody felt that. So it was just I just couldn't get enough of him
[01:06:07] just I just couldn't get enough of him during the years of his pontificate.
[01:06:09] during the years of his pontificate. Father thank you for sharing those
[01:06:11] Father thank you for sharing those stories and thank you for so much Thank
[01:06:13] stories and thank you for so much Thank you so much for all the work you have
[01:06:14] you so much for all the work you have done over these decades in bringing the
[01:06:16] done over these decades in bringing the rules to the people in the pew. I have
[01:06:19] rules to the people in the pew. I have benefited. Our students here at the
[01:06:20] benefited. Our students here at the Theology of the Body Institute have
[01:06:21] Theology of the Body Institute have benefited so richly. So grateful to you.
[01:06:24] benefited so richly. So grateful to you. Please learn the rules. Learn the rules.
[01:06:28] Please learn the rules. Learn the rules. This is a great place to start. You will
[01:06:30] This is a great place to start. You will have an understanding of the plans of
[01:06:33] have an understanding of the plans of the enemy and you can thwart them and
[01:06:36] the enemy and you can thwart them and make great progress
[01:06:38] make great progress towards union with the Lord.
[01:06:40] towards union with the Lord. Bless you, everybody.
[01:06:41] Bless you, everybody. Keep posted on what we're doing here at
[01:06:43] Keep posted on what we're doing here at the Institute. In fact, I do want to
[01:06:44] the Institute. In fact, I do want to share share one more thing. Father
[01:06:45] share share one more thing. Father Gallagher and I did a personal retreat.
[01:06:48] Gallagher and I did a personal retreat. We led it together for our patrons. So
[01:06:51] We led it together for our patrons. So check out our patron website and how you
[01:06:54] check out our patron website and how you can get access to the retreat that
[01:06:55] can get access to the retreat that Father and I led there. God bless you
[01:06:57] Father and I led there. God bless you till next time. Peace. Thank you, Father
[01:06:59] till next time. Peace. Thank you, Father so much. So grateful. Thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhBDA49xD-s

Summary

TL;DR — Father Timothy Gallagher discusses St. Ignatius of Loyola's 14 Rules of Discernment, explaining that these rules are practical tools for navigating the daily ups and downs of the spiritual life, helping individuals understand and respond to spiritual consolations and desolations. He emphasizes that discernment is a universal human experience, and Ignatius's rules provide a clear, usable map for this interior journey, offering no shame in experiencing desolation but rather a path to freedom and growth.

Key points

• Discernment of Spirits is about understanding the daily spiritual experiences of consolation (uplifting feelings from God) and desolation (discouragement and lack of God's closeness).

• Ignatius's 14 Rules offer a practical, clear, and usable framework for discerning the movements of good and evil spirits in one's life.

• Experiencing spiritual desolation is normal and not a sign of failure; the rules provide tools to recognize, understand, and reject it.

• Rule 5 is crucial: in times of desolation, do not make significant changes to spiritual commitments made during times of consolation.

• The rules equip individuals to recognize the enemy's tactics, resist temptation, and actively engage in spiritual growth, transforming perceived weaknesses into strengths.

• The teaching is presented as exercises in hope, empowering individuals to navigate spiritual challenges with greater awareness and resilience.

Takeaway — Learning and applying St. Ignatius's 14 Rules of Discernment provides essential tools for navigating spiritual challenges, fostering growth, and deepening one's relationship with God.