Rhizophagy • The Soil Discovery Changing Agriculture | Soil Science | Professor James White Jr.

Full Transcript

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSQh81snqas

[00:00] plants don't absorb nutrients they eat
[00:04] plants don't absorb nutrients they eat them they actually eat
[00:07] them they actually eat bacteria fascinating right they eat
[00:10] bacteria fascinating right they eat bacteria through this process called
[00:13] bacteria through this process called ropy or rophages some people would say
[00:16] ropy or rophages some people would say Professor James White at ruers
[00:18] Professor James White at ruers University has been studying endites for
[00:21] University has been studying endites for 47 years for as long as he's been
[00:23] 47 years for as long as he's been married he started looking at them as an
[00:26] married he started looking at them as an undergraduate I'm really excited to
[00:29] undergraduate I'm really excited to share this conver ation with you about
[00:32] share this conver ation with you about rise of fagi we really simplify the
[00:35] rise of fagi we really simplify the process we take a deep dive into what it
[00:37] process we take a deep dive into what it is and why it's important how it works
[00:41] is and why it's important how it works how you can support the rise of fagy uh
[00:44] how you can support the rise of fagy uh process and interaction of plants and we
[00:48] process and interaction of plants and we go a little bit even deeper into talking
[00:52] go a little bit even deeper into talking about what bacteria is and talk about
[00:54] about what bacteria is and talk about what fungi is and the role they play and
[00:57] what fungi is and the role they play and how it all kind of fits together
[01:00] how it all kind of fits together Dr James White is an amazing human he is
[01:04] Dr James White is an amazing human he is easy to listen to and this conversation.
[01:09] easy to listen to and this conversation is awesome and I'm really excited to share it with you.
[01:11] I'm Natalie Force Bower founder and editor and chief of heart and soul magazine.
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[01:56] big love thank you for joining me.
[01:59] you're welcome it's my pleasure I'm happy to.
[02:01] we're talking endites and riseof fagy today and I'm really excited about it.
[02:05] today and I'm really excited about it because it sounds like it might be the way plants actually eat and feed themselves and so I'm wondering before we dive into what endites are and R riseof fagy is can you tell us what endites are and what role they play yes.
[02:20] yes yes yeah an endite is really a a very general term and uh all that it means is endo for internal fight means plant internal plant and it and it refers really to any kind of of usually they're microorganisms they could be bacteria and fungi that go into fungal tissues.
[02:43] but but the term indifi actually can be uh more extensive for example you have uh some uh it can actually refer to plants like mistletoes and related to that that go a plant that actually goes inside another plant you know so uh they it basically it's any organism that goes inside another plant that's that's an
[03:07] inside another plant that's that's an that's the term indite that's really cool.
[03:09] and so what role do indites play then if they are inside of a plant so plants use them okay they're they're they plants use them to do things that they need.
[03:23] uh for example there are some endites that will produce chemicals that will make the plant become more resistant to insect feeding certain types of fungal lyes uh other bacterial lyes will go into plants and uh the plant will interact with them to get these microbes to secrete nitrogen because they can fix the microb can fix nitrogen from the air but the plant can't get it you know so that it be if the plant has an endite that can fix nitrogen a microb a bacterium that can fix nitrogen then the plant but indirectly can get nitrogen from the air you know so it and and all plants all plants have these kind of endites in them.
[04:04] use that's really cool so what I'm
[04:10] use that's really cool so what I'm hearing is there can be nitrogen out here and if the plant can't access it then the Endy can take that Nitro nitrogen and be a carrier and go into the plant and then the plant goes oh there's nitrogen with that ight and then it yeah well so this is this is okay so the ropy cycle actually uh has microbes that are soil microbes that plants take into the roots and then they extract nutrients from them nitrogen plus uh you know Metals a lot of divalent metals micronutrients plus other macronutrients like phosphorus and potassium so uh uh the the endites and which is extension of what we were talking about with nitrogen fixation the indites can also carry other nutrients from the soil into the plant wow and so how do they do that exactly are they creating that themselves before they go into the plant or are they um picking that up as they go and then bringing it to the plant how does that
[05:10] bringing it to the plant how does that happen and work both both both they will happen and work both both both.
[05:14] they will pick some up like these metals like for pick some up like these metals like for example a bacterium in the soil uh they example a bacterium in the soil uh they they'll get these metals from the soil.
[05:19] they'll get these metals from the soil that just stick all over the wall the that just stick all over the wall the cell walls of the bacterium and uh and cell walls of the bacterium and uh and then and and also they will pick up.
[05:26] then and and also they will pick up these uh other other kinds of nutrients these uh other other kinds of nutrients uh potassium and phosphorus and uh uh potassium and phosphorus and uh calcium and nitrogen and so forth.
[05:34] calcium and nitrogen and so forth they'll pick those up or or either from they'll pick those up or or either from other in the soil nutrients or other.
[05:40] other in the soil nutrients or other from other microbes they'll get them and from other microbes they'll get them and then they'll carry those into the plant.
[05:45] then they'll carry those into the plant or I should say the plant will absorb or I should say the plant will absorb these they will attract these other.
[05:51] these they will attract these other bacteria to to its roots and then it bacteria to to its roots and then it will absorb them into the root cells and will absorb them into the root cells and then the plant will secrete reactive.
[05:57] then the plant will secrete reactive oxygen super oxide essentially super oxide which is a very highly highly.
[06:04] oxide which is a very highly highly potent form of reactive oxygen so the.
[06:10] potent form of reactive oxygen so the plant secretes super oxide onto these bacteria that it has absorbed into the roots actually into the root cells and then that that exposure to Super oxide will essentially oxidize off the cell walls off of the microbes off of the bacteria and and then the and then the plant cells can absorb those nutrients that were on the cell walls and also the the bacteria will some of them will be fully degraded and so the plant then can absorb some of those nutrients from the bacteria that are fully degraded yeah that's really cool so it's not like because I think the way we used to think about plants and growing and correct me if I'm wrong the way I think we used to think about it and I wish I had um I wish I had a fresh rot here um I I have an old I have an old Route here so okay the way we used to think about it is um we used to think that the the root of
[07:10] um we used to think that the the root of the plant would just absorb things and the plant would just absorb things and it would go into like absorb nitrogen.
[07:15] it would go into like absorb nitrogen and absorb um phosphorus and all the things that it needs and then the plant would use it and it would do what it does it would grow if it was getting everything that it needed and so what I'm hearing you say is something a little bit different than that is that right.
[07:31] it is very it's very different really it's an add it's a piece that we didn't know was happening and uh what what we thought before as as you said Natalie is that plants you sit basically they're immobilized in the soil and you uh they simply absorb dissolved nutrients from the soil and it goes into the goes into the roots and then it spreads throughout the plant but that's an incomplete story it's it's not that that's wrong that is that is correct but it's not it's not 100% correct it's it's partially correct uh what plants do is they actually have a much more
[08:12] they actually have a much more active uh uh mechanism we way much more active uh uh mechanism we way much more active they're much more involved in in active they're much more involved in in getting those nutrients so it's not just getting those nutrients so it's not just passively absorbing nutrients in the water instead what the plants actually do uh and this is extremely important because this is how plants get a lot of these nutrients that are hard to get what they do is they cultivate bacteria around the roots by putting sugars out there something exudates exudates plants will make exudates and push them out of the roots those exudates are actually uh to feed the microbes and to attract the microbes to the roots so they put these exudates out the sugars sugars are cheap by the way for a plant because it does photosynthesis so it's and and that's from the you know sunlight it can make energy and sugars and and it pushes those out cheap cheap for the plant and then the microbes are attracted to that and they come to the root and then the plant actually will absorb those microbes those
[09:14] will absorb those microbes those bacteria into the root cells right at the root tip really and uh and then and then it will hit them with super oxide to extract the nutrients so it is it's an active process so plants are doing this you know and they can actually uh depending on what they need they can change what their exudates are you know change the composition of the exudates to for example if they if they need uh Nitro if they need nitrogen fixing microbes because there's not enough nitrogen uh what what they will do is they will uh they will make sure they will they will their exudates will not have any nitrogen in it or will have very limited amounts of nitrogen and that will force the microbes around the roots to start fixing nitrogen they'll cultivate the ones specifically that are able to get nitrogen from the air and then they'll take those in so this is a plants actually are in control of the
[10:14] plants actually are in control of the RIS ofy cycle it's not they're just not
[10:16] RIS ofy cycle it's not they're just not sitting there waiting for us to squirt
[10:18] sitting there waiting for us to squirt fertilizer on them this is what wild
[10:20] fertilizer on them this is what wild plants do this is how they work you know
[10:23] plants do this is how they work you know this this is the the actual functioning
[10:27] this this is the the actual functioning of the plants in nature right our Fields
[10:30] of the plants in nature right our Fields if we do hydroponic or something like
[10:32] if we do hydroponic or something like that you know we expect or in in our in
[10:35] that you know we expect or in in our in our our mindset for agriculture is we
[10:38] our our mindset for agriculture is we have to fertilize the plants but when
[10:40] have to fertilize the plants but when you consider plants in in the wild they
[10:43] you consider plants in in the wild they don't need any of that they don't need
[10:45] don't need any of that they don't need any of our fertilizers we mess them up
[10:47] any of our fertilizers we mess them up when we put them on because they have
[10:49] when we put them on because they have these systems already going in them they
[10:51] these systems already going in them they do RI ropas and then they have other
[10:54] do RI ropas and then they have other endites that are fixing nitrogen in
[10:56] endites that are fixing nitrogen in their
[10:57] their tissues so we discovering a whole new
[11:01] tissues so we discovering a whole new level of
[11:03] level of intelligence that plants it is it is
[11:07] intelligence that plants it is it is plants are much more plants are I mean I
[11:11] plants are much more plants are I mean I I have a yeah it's exactly right I mean
[11:13] I have a yeah it's exactly right I mean you're not the only one to talk about
[11:15] you're not the only one to talk about plant intelligence here it comes
[11:18] plant intelligence here it comes up friend a friend of mine uh owns a
[11:22] up friend a friend of mine uh owns a owns a a a regenerative agriculture
[11:25] owns a a a regenerative agriculture company Plant management company
[11:28] company Plant management company actually said that almost the same thing
[11:31] actually said that almost the same thing and that is that uh that she didn't
[11:35] and that is that uh that she didn't realize how smart plants were and uh
[11:38] realize how smart plants were and uh that's that is exactly what
[11:41] that's that is exactly what you're conveying here that these plants
[11:44] you're conveying here that these plants are showing a type of intelligence of
[11:47] are showing a type of intelligence of plant intelligence that we didn't
[11:49] plant intelligence that we didn't realize they had well it's actually a
[11:53] realize they had well it's actually a profound intelligence
[11:55] profound intelligence because um it's so far beyond
[12:00] because um it's so far beyond what our scope of understanding was
[12:03] what our scope of understanding was James in terms of how plants grow and
[12:05] James in terms of how plants grow and what they need to grow and to be healthy
[12:06] what they need to grow and to be healthy and to be strong strong and to be
[12:09] and to be strong strong and to be productive to actually giving
[12:12] productive to actually giving agency
[12:14] agency to uh a plant having the innate knowing
[12:17] to uh a plant having the innate knowing of what it needs and saying oh like this.
[12:20] of what it needs and saying oh like this little plant this little route here.
[12:22] little plant this little route here saying oh I need nitrogen so I'm not.
[12:24] saying oh I need nitrogen so I'm not going to give you as much exid dates.
[12:27] going to give you as much exid dates which is um I guess you could say.
[12:30] which is um I guess you could say stuff that the.
[12:31] stuff that the plant ex extract uh lets go of into the.
[12:36] plant ex extract uh lets go of into the soil so that the bacteria around it can.
[12:38] soil so that the bacteria around it can go oh I'm GNA make more nitrogen I'm.
[12:41] go oh I'm GNA make more nitrogen I'm gonna like fixate nitrogen and so that.
[12:45] gonna like fixate nitrogen and so that and then the plant is like well thanks.
[12:46] and then the plant is like well thanks for doing your job and I'm gonna yes dig.
[12:49] for doing your job and I'm gonna yes dig you back in.
[12:50] you back in and break you down and use that like.
[12:53] and break you down and use that like that's mind-blowing when you think about.
[12:55] that's mind-blowing when you think about it it it really is and and the the.
[12:58] it it it really is and and the the reason you know why when we first.
[13:00] reason you know why when we first discovered this process when we worked.
[13:02] discovered this process when we worked it out ropy or rophy people pronounce it.
[13:07] it out ropy or rophy people pronounce it differently we refer to it as a cycle.
[13:10] differently we refer to it as a cycle because actually the microbes the plant.
[13:13] because actually the microbes the plant is internalizing the microbes and there.
[13:15] is internalizing the microbes and there it's it's extracting nutrients and then.
[13:17] it's it's extracting nutrients and then it's putting out survivors and even.
[13:20] it's putting out survivors and even cloning those surviving bacteria inside.
[13:23] cloning those surviving bacteria inside putting them out to go get more nutrients out of the out of the root.
[13:26] nutrients out of the out of the root hair tips so it's kind of a fantastic process when you think about it.
[13:28] it's kind of a fantastic process when you think about it it's this rophages cycle where they microbes are attracted to the root.
[13:33] they microbes are attracted to the root they internalize them they extract nutrients and then they eject them back out at the root hair tips.
[13:37] internalize them they extract nutrients and then they eject them back out at the root hair tips you know and that that's that is that is wow.
[13:40] and then they eject them back out at the root hair tips you know and that that's that is that is wow you mean root hairs are ejecting microbes out processing microbes internally and ejecting them back out to the soil.
[13:46] are ejecting microbes out processing microbes internally and ejecting them back out to the soil we always thought that the root hair the only function of a root hair was to extend the surface surf area of the root so you could absorb more dissolved nutrients but that's not correct.
[13:51] back out to the soil we always thought that the root hair the only function of a root hair was to extend the surface surf area of the root so you could absorb more dissolved nutrients but that's not correct.
[13:54] that the root hair the only function of a root hair was to extend the surface surf area of the root so you could absorb more dissolved nutrients but that's not correct.
[13:55] that the root hair the only function of a root hair was to extend the surface surf area of the root so you could absorb more dissolved nutrients but that's not correct.
[13:59] a root hair was to extend the surface surf area of the root so you could absorb more dissolved nutrients but that's not correct.
[14:00] surf area of the root so you could absorb more dissolved nutrients but that's not correct.
[14:03] absorb more dissolved nutrients but that's not correct this is a that's a that's based on a a misunderstanding of how plants actually work.
[14:07] that's not correct this is a that's a that's based on a a misunderstanding of how plants actually work.
[14:10] that's based on a a misunderstanding of how plants actually work yeah that's really powerful and I love the way you named it as a misunderstanding because it's not right or wrong it's just where understanding.
[14:13] how plants actually work yeah that's really powerful and I love the way you named it as a misunderstanding because it's not right or wrong it's just where understanding.
[14:16] work yeah that's really powerful and I love the way you named it as a misunderstanding because it's not right or wrong it's just where understanding.
[14:17] love the way you named it as a misunderstanding because it's not right or wrong it's just where understanding.
[14:19] misunderstanding because it's not right or wrong it's just where understanding.
[14:20] or wrong it's just where understanding is today right and so we are always.
[14:23] is today right and so we are always learning and I love that so we used to.
[14:25] learning and I love that so we used to think that these little root hairs right.
[14:27] think that these little root hairs right here hopefully you can see it these.
[14:28] here hopefully you can see it these little root hair we used to think that.
[14:29] little root hair we used to think that they would grow out from the root to to.
[14:32] they would grow out from the root to to absorb more nutrients and what we're.
[14:34] absorb more nutrients and what we're learning is these little root hairs.
[14:36] learning is these little root hairs actually are letting go and putting that.
[14:40] actually are letting go and putting that bacteria back into the Natalie the yeah.
[14:43] bacteria back into the Natalie the yeah that's right if that what you touched.
[14:46] that's right if that what you touched was a root hair that actually is a.
[14:47] was a root hair that actually is a branch root or a main Ro and the root.
[14:50] branch root or a main Ro and the root hairs would be on that you could see you.
[14:53] hairs would be on that you could see you oh they even tinier ones they're tinier.
[14:55] oh they even tinier ones they're tinier ones those are the ones the little tin.
[14:57] ones those are the ones the little tin can you see them I can't see here yeah.
[14:59] can you see them I can't see here yeah can you see that if I hold it right.
[15:01] can you see that if I hold it right there yeah I can't a little bit Yeah I.
[15:03] there yeah I can't a little bit Yeah I can see a little bit up there I could.
[15:04] can see a little bit up there I could see them up a little bit yeah I could.
[15:06] see them up a little bit yeah I could see them yeah yeah I do see those are.
[15:08] see them yeah yeah I do see those are the root hairs yeah those are the root.
[15:09] the root hairs yeah those are the root hairs there I can't barely see them yeah.
[15:12] hairs there I can't barely see them yeah they're tiny right they're tiny tiny.
[15:14] they're tiny right they're tiny tiny tiny tiny they're tiny tiny tiny yeah.
[15:17] tiny tiny they're tiny tiny tiny yeah that's really fascinating so before we.
[15:20] that's really fascinating so before we talk more about that cycle tell me what.
[15:22] talk more about that cycle tell me what that moment was
[15:24] that moment was like when you that was that was it was
[15:27] like when you that was that was it was it was my jaw
[15:30] it was my jaw fell just it fell we were at a
[15:33] fell just it fell we were at a microscope uh one of my someone one of
[15:35] microscope uh one of my someone one of my um uh the the the lady young lady but
[15:41] my um uh the the the lady young lady but she's she's uh Katherine Kingsley she's
[15:44] she's she's uh Katherine Kingsley she's my one my laboratory M main laboratory
[15:47] my one my laboratory M main laboratory person she man shees manages my lab we
[15:51] person she man shees manages my lab we were sitting at a microscope and we were
[15:53] were sitting at a microscope and we were looking at the these roots trying to
[15:57] looking at the these roots trying to figure out you know what the heck is
[15:58] figure out you know what the heck is going on because we could see the the ox
[16:01] going on because we could see the the ox the reactive oxygen around the microbes
[16:03] the reactive oxygen around the microbes in but then we started noticing they
[16:06] in but then we started noticing they were coming out of the root hair tips
[16:08] were coming out of the root hair tips and when we saw that then that's when my
[16:11] and when we saw that then that's when my jaw fell it's a cycle they go in at the
[16:15] jaw fell it's a cycle they go in at the root tip and they go out at the root
[16:17] root tip and they go out at the root hair tip and it just oh my gosh oh my
[16:22] hair tip and it just oh my gosh oh my gosh and that's when I started to you we
[16:24] Gosh, and that's when I started to you, we started really to look at it and uh try to figure out, you know, what nutrients are involved and uh and the details.
[16:32] Exactly what's happening in, in, inside the plant and what forms of reactive oxygen were important.
[16:39] You know, it really took, took us years to develop the techniques and the kind of histochemical stains that it, it was necessary to actually look at the chemicals that were being produced around these microbes to sort out this process.
[16:55] Uh, but it was, it was, it was astonishing and since that time, time, you know, I said, I said, you know, this is something really to myself.
[17:03] This is something really, really important and um, I promised, I promised myself that I would uh talk about this process uh to whoever wanted to know about it to try to spread the word because I thought this is so important.
[17:25] because I thought this is so important that plants are doing this it's that plants are doing this it's necessary to get the word out and normal.
[17:30] necessary to get the word out and normal science is very glacial right it goes science is very glacial right it goes very very slowly uh you write an article publish it and maybe no one sees that article.
[17:41] it and maybe no one sees that article and uh maybe you know 30 years 20 30 years down the road someone might discover it and then they bring it out.
[17:48] Discover it and then they bring it out and then they start you know working on it and someone else might Discover it.
[17:52] it and someone else might Discover it you see it's very slow but this process uh is so radical and I think so important for plants and how we cultivate plants and you know Agriculture and developing clean agriculture using you know using the bi the soil biology and the plant biology uh to cultivate plants you know to clean the environment right to uh make us have a cleaner agriculture I this was so important that I thought I need to talk about I need to tell everybody about this and so that's
[18:25] tell everybody about this and so that's what I've been doing so I I always I what I've been doing so I I always I always agree to do a agree to do a presentation if anyone wants to wants it.
[18:35] presentation if anyone wants to wants it and uh you know so basically I've been doing that for years now that's awesome.
[18:42] and James why is it so important to have a deeper understanding of Rise of fagi well it because it you know right now we have the concept that um most of us you know have the idea that the way you grow plants is you you put them in the soil you put fungicides and insecticides around and you put fertilizer on them right and the problems we have is that those chemicals are bad for the Environ okay about everything almost everything there is bad for the environment uh what what the rophy cycle and the role of
[19:26] rophy cycle and the role of endites tell us is that in fact plants.
[19:30] endites tell us is that in fact plants that's not how plants work in fact.
[19:32] that's not how plants work in fact plants are much more active in in using.
[19:37] plants are much more active in in using microbes in the soil to get the.
[19:39] microbes in the soil to get the nutrients they need and so we can if we.
[19:43] nutrients they need and so we can if we work on it and people are already trying.
[19:46] work on it and people are already trying to do this in organic Agriculture and.
[19:49] to do this in organic Agriculture and and organic farming and in regenerative.
[19:51] and organic farming and in regenerative agriculture they're already trying to.
[19:53] agriculture they're already trying to use this they they call it soil biology.
[19:56] use this they they call it soil biology right to try to use the soil biology to.
[19:58] right to try to use the soil biology to grow plants rather than all the.
[20:01] grow plants rather than all the chemistry and the the fact that plants.
[20:05] chemistry and the the fact that plants are actually getting much of their.
[20:07] are actually getting much of their nutrients uh at least a key part of.
[20:09] nutrients uh at least a key part of their nutrients by oxidizing microbes in.
[20:12] their nutrients by oxidizing microbes in their roots and in other parts of their.
[20:14] their roots and in other parts of their tissues in other parts of the plant uh.
[20:17] tissues in other parts of the plant uh because they're doing that that opens.
[20:19] because they're doing that that opens this other Avenue to say we can now.
[20:21] this other Avenue to say we can now explore and develop this the.
[20:24] explore and develop this the biology uh approach to growing our crops.
[20:30] biology uh approach to growing our crops and and and reduce all the contamination
[20:33] and and and reduce all the contamination in the environment and the the problems
[20:35] in the environment and the the problems with human health and so
[20:37] with human health and so forth wow so you're seeing this having a
[20:40] forth wow so you're seeing this having a really big impact on the way that we
[20:43] really big impact on the way that we grow food
[20:45] grow food and it can it can it can have a big
[20:49] and it can it can it can have a big impact uh if we have a deep
[20:52] impact uh if we have a deep understanding of it do you think or like
[20:54] understanding of it do you think or like start if we yeah if we
[20:57] start if we yeah if we start we use if we just the fact that
[21:00] start we use if we just the fact that plants do this opens the door to people
[21:03] plants do this opens the door to people exploring ways to say for example
[21:06] exploring ways to say for example fertilized plants using only the
[21:07] fertilized plants using only the microbes right how do you then for
[21:09] microbes right how do you then for example let's say you have a a soil that
[21:12] example let's say you have a a soil that doesn't have a lot of microbes in it you
[21:14] doesn't have a lot of microbes in it you know you can build up the soil to get a
[21:16] know you can build up the soil to get a better a better you know put more
[21:18] better a better you know put more organic material in it grow get a better
[21:20] organic material in it grow get a better soil and then plants will have more
[21:21] soil and then plants will have more microbes that they can then uh take in
[21:24] microbes that they can then uh take in and get more nutrients okay so that's
[21:26] and get more nutrients okay so that's kind of a you know soil building your
[21:28] kind of a you know soil building your soil organic material and your microbial
[21:30] soil organic material and your microbial diversity in the soil that's important
[21:33] diversity in the soil that's important um the uh the other thing is okay so you
[21:36] um the uh the other thing is okay so you could fertilize plants with microbes we
[21:39] could fertilize plants with microbes we know also that many of these microbes uh
[21:42] know also that many of these microbes uh will interact with fungi and uh and they
[21:46] will interact with fungi and uh and they will colonize fungi many of the
[21:49] will colonize fungi many of the bacteria will colonize the fungi and
[21:52] bacteria will colonize the fungi and they will change the behavior of the
[21:54] they will change the behavior of the fungi uh they will for example if you if
[21:57] fungi uh they will for example if you if we remove all microbes from plants uh
[21:59] we remove all microbes from plants uh and we we don't have good good bacterial
[22:02] and we we don't have good good bacterial concentrations in the soil then you have
[22:04] concentrations in the soil then you have fungi in the soil or on the plant things
[22:07] fungi in the soil or on the plant things like fusarium that will cause disease
[22:09] like fusarium that will cause disease and kill the plants but when the
[22:11] and kill the plants but when the microbes are there they colonize the the
[22:14] microbes are there they colonize the the highy of the fungus and they alter the
[22:17] highy of the fungus and they alter the behavior of the fungus they make the
[22:19] behavior of the fungus they make the fungus uh less destructive less
[22:22] fungus uh less destructive less pathogenic in fact in some cases with
[22:24] pathogenic in fact in some cases with the bacteria there fungi will become an
[22:27] the bacteria there fungi will become an indify totally non-harmful indify and
[22:29] indify totally non-harmful indify and grow in the plant grow around the plant
[22:32] grow in the plant grow around the plant and and and benefit the plant in
[22:34] and and and benefit the plant in acquisition of
[22:36] acquisition of nutrients uh but uh uh so you can
[22:40] nutrients uh but uh uh so you can control we can control diseases with
[22:43] control we can control diseases with bacteria with
[22:45] bacteria with endites and uh we can also in some cases
[22:49] endites and uh we can also in some cases control competitor plants because some
[22:51] control competitor plants because some of the bacteria will go and go into
[22:54] of the bacteria will go and go into competitors weeds for example and reduce
[22:57] competitors weeds for example and reduce their growth so you can have this you
[22:59] their growth so you can have this you have this you know where the where the
[23:02] have this you know where the where the microb promotes the growth of a toast
[23:05] microb promotes the growth of a toast species toast plant crop plant whatever
[23:07] species toast plant crop plant whatever it is right and then it will go into the
[23:10] it is right and then it will go into the soil colonize as an indify this other
[23:13] soil colonize as an indify this other competitor plant but reduce its growth
[23:16] competitor plant but reduce its growth and that is you know that has to do with
[23:19] and that is you know that has to do with just just an ad adaptation right on the
[23:22] just just an ad adaptation right on the on the host plant and not on these other
[23:24] on the host plant and not on these other plants so so you have
[23:27] plants so so you have these uh
[23:29] these uh uses uh in cultivation it it really
[23:33] uses uh in cultivation it it really could in fact we think we think that it
[23:36] could in fact we think we think that it it's possible it may be possible to
[23:40] it's possible it may be possible to cultivate crops using only microbes
[23:43] cultivate crops using only microbes right rather than other chemical
[23:44] right rather than other chemical applications but but there's also other
[23:46] applications but but there's also other things that one can do for example if if
[23:48] things that one can do for example if if you want to increase the soil
[23:51] you want to increase the soil microbiology uh besides organic material
[23:53] microbiology uh besides organic material you could for example put something else
[23:55] you could for example put something else some other organic in the soil and then
[23:58] some other organic in the soil and then that would increase the growth of the
[24:00] that would increase the growth of the microbes and then those would then be
[24:02] microbes and then those would then be available to move into the plant so
[24:04] available to move into the plant so there's you could essentially fertilize
[24:06] there's you could essentially fertilize the plant you know that way just by
[24:08] the plant you know that way just by manipulating the microbiology so that's
[24:11] manipulating the microbiology so that's the that's the door we have that's
[24:14] the that's the door we have that's really cool so when you say
[24:17] really cool so when you say um using organic like build building the
[24:20] um using organic like build building the soil with organic material and
[24:22] soil with organic material and microbes what types of material would
[24:26] microbes what types of material would that be that we're putting into the soil
[24:28] that be that we're putting into the soil so how do we get organic material into
[24:30] so how do we get organic material into the soil and how do we uh put how would
[24:32] the soil and how do we uh put how would we put microbes into the soil well the
[24:35] we put microbes into the soil well the best the best way is to use a cover crop
[24:39] best the best way is to use a cover crop and uh with a cover crop you know you
[24:41] and uh with a cover crop you know you get a whole bunch of different cover
[24:42] get a whole bunch of different cover crops but you essentially you know you
[24:44] crops but you essentially you know you keep you keep living roots in soil and
[24:47] keep you keep living roots in soil and that cultivates the microbes uh uh when
[24:50] that cultivates the microbes uh uh when the when the crop dies that will be
[24:52] the when the crop dies that will be incorporated in to increase the organic
[24:54] incorporated in to increase the organic material into the soil so you do that
[24:57] material into the soil so you do that you know for a few years you build up
[24:58] you know for a few years you build up that organic material and at the same
[25:00] that organic material and at the same time you're building up the microbial
[25:02] time you're building up the microbial diversity there there are ways to tweak
[25:05] diversity there there are ways to tweak it and and uh I mean essentially what do
[25:08] it and and uh I mean essentially what do we do in agriculture with you know we
[25:11] we do in agriculture with you know we are we are normally just squirting
[25:15] are we are normally just squirting nutrients out there right and put it in
[25:17] nutrients out there right and put it in okay that's that's a way to push a plant
[25:19] okay that's that's a way to push a plant but you're not using the microbiological
[25:22] but you're not using the microbiological aspect you could do a similar uh pushing
[25:27] aspect you could do a similar uh pushing of a plant by for example incorporating
[25:30] of a plant by for example incorporating some nutrients and some people will do a
[25:34] some nutrients and some people will do a little bit of molasses or they'll do uh
[25:37] little bit of molasses or they'll do uh they'll do um uh Al algae alal extracts
[25:42] they'll do um uh Al algae alal extracts you know with a little bit of sugar
[25:43] you know with a little bit of sugar mixed in and they'll put that into the
[25:45] mixed in and they'll put that into the soils and that'll encourage the microbes
[25:48] soils and that'll encourage the microbes to you know like a bloom of microbes
[25:50] to you know like a bloom of microbes you'll get a lot a shortterm increase in
[25:54] you'll get a lot a shortterm increase in microbial populations and then those
[25:56] microbial populations and then those microbes will be there that the plant
[25:58] microbes will be there that the plant can and take to then get to the for the
[26:01] can and take to then get to the for the nutrients so it's possible to push
[26:04] nutrients so it's possible to push plants using the microbiology if you're
[26:06] plants using the microbiology if you're thinking about uh if you start thinking
[26:09] thinking about uh if you start thinking about this mechanism you know where the
[26:11] about this mechanism you know where the plants are absorbing the microbes to get
[26:13] plants are absorbing the microbes to get nutrients so you could you could
[26:15] nutrients so you could you could actually manage a crop and plant growth
[26:18] actually manage a crop and plant growth by then managing the microbiology so if
[26:22] by then managing the microbiology so if there's a creative ways there's a
[26:23] there's a creative ways there's a there's a lot of people who are out
[26:25] there's a lot of people who are out there trying to think of ways to do this
[26:28] there trying to think of ways to do this you
[26:29] you know so I have a question about paron me
[26:33] know so I have a question about paron me yeah so so these are this is the
[26:35] yeah so so these are this is the experimentation that people are doing
[26:37] experimentation that people are doing you know and if they know that okay the
[26:40] you know and if they know that okay the plant is absorbing the microbes then it
[26:42] plant is absorbing the microbes then it gives a confirmation that at this this
[26:45] gives a confirmation that at this this kind of microbial stimulation approach
[26:48] kind of microbial stimulation approach for stimulating uh pushing crop growth
[26:51] for stimulating uh pushing crop growth for facilitating or supporting crop
[26:55] for facilitating or supporting crop growth right and so what I'm hearing
[26:57] growth right and so what I'm hearing from you is um the it it it brings
[27:01] from you is um the it it it brings the conversation of cover crops to a
[27:04] the conversation of cover crops to a whole different place when we think
[27:06] whole different place when we think about what types of cover crops we're
[27:08] about what types of cover crops we're using if we're going to use legumes
[27:11] using if we're going to use legumes versus Rye versus vetch would that be
[27:15] versus Rye versus vetch would that be true it is true and there are experts on
[27:18] true it is true and there are experts on cover crops but all of these kind of
[27:20] cover crops but all of these kind of cover crops will still stimulate
[27:22] cover crops will still stimulate microbes in the soil because they're all
[27:24] microbes in the soil because they're all going to be you know cultivate
[27:26] going to be you know cultivate essentially cultivate and absorb
[27:28] essentially cultivate and absorb microbes so yeah it does make a
[27:30] microbes so yeah it does make a difference there are you know there are
[27:32] difference there are you know there are there are experts on cover crops and so
[27:34] there are experts on cover crops and so if you go for a cover crop you know you
[27:36] if you go for a cover crop you know you could uh you could talk to one of those
[27:38] could uh you could talk to one of those people that about uh uh about which one
[27:42] people that about uh uh about which one would be optimal for your conditions but
[27:45] would be optimal for your conditions but the important but the important thing is
[27:46] the important but the important thing is you have a cover crop you know that's
[27:48] you have a cover crop you know that's that's an important thing yeah because
[27:50] that's an important thing yeah because that helps a lot yeah and that I I
[27:53] that helps a lot yeah and that I I thanks for presencing that because a
[27:54] thanks for presencing that because a cover crop is the first place to start
[27:56] cover crop is the first place to start and I'm just curious about
[27:58] and I'm just curious about where this can go and what we can learn
[28:00] where this can go and what we can learn from like because we have a certain
[28:02] from like because we have a certain understanding about the benefits of
[28:03] understanding about the benefits of different types of cover crops and
[28:04] different types of cover crops and imagine where the understanding could go
[28:07] imagine where the understanding could go even further with this understanding of
[28:09] even further with this understanding of the rise of
[28:10] the rise of fagi what is the most important aspect
[28:14] fagi what is the most important aspect of riseof fagy to have a deeper
[28:18] of riseof fagy to have a deeper understanding
[28:21] of oh that's a good question uh the most
[28:24] of oh that's a good question uh the most important
[28:26] important aspects I I will I will tell you yeah uh
[28:30] aspects I I will I will tell you yeah uh I mean I don't know if this is the right
[28:32] I mean I don't know if this is the right answer to to your particular question
[28:34] answer to to your particular question but uh what is important to understand
[28:37] but uh what is important to understand is that the plants need those microbes
[28:40] is that the plants need those microbes those soil microbes that's a key element
[28:43] those soil microbes that's a key element and then and then the other aspect is
[28:46] and then and then the other aspect is that the plants are really in charge of
[28:49] that the plants are really in charge of the rophy cycle that is they are the
[28:52] the rophy cycle that is they are the plant is is in control of that whole
[28:55] plant is is in control of that whole process this is not a case where you
[28:58] process this is not a case where you know it's like a pathogen you know gets
[29:00] know it's like a pathogen you know gets a plant and causes gets into a plant
[29:03] a plant and causes gets into a plant gets into a wound or whatever it is it
[29:04] gets into a wound or whatever it is it causes disease it's not an arbitrary
[29:06] causes disease it's not an arbitrary process this is actually a very active
[29:08] process this is actually a very active process that plants are doing and uh
[29:12] process that plants are doing and uh they're manipulating these microbes and
[29:14] they're manipulating these microbes and extracting nutrients from them and
[29:15] extracting nutrients from them and they're also putting them back out into
[29:17] they're also putting them back out into the soil in higher numbers so the plant
[29:21] the soil in higher numbers so the plant is fortifying its rizosphere or soil
[29:24] is fortifying its rizosphere or soil around the roots with these good
[29:26] around the roots with these good microbes that it uses
[29:28] microbes that it uses okay those are three points I think it's
[29:30] okay those are three points I think it's three that but also uh what happens
[29:34] three that but also uh what happens because uh plants when these bacteria
[29:38] because uh plants when these bacteria absorbed into root cells plants are
[29:41] absorbed into root cells plants are interacting with the microbes using
[29:43] interacting with the microbes using reactive oxygen you know this
[29:46] reactive oxygen you know this interaction to get the nutrients to come
[29:47] interaction to get the nutrients to come out but what that makes the plant do
[29:50] out but what that makes the plant do that makes the plant upregulate its
[29:54] that makes the plant upregulate its antio its own antioxidants and uh and
[29:58] antio its own antioxidants and uh and and traits that make it resistant to its
[30:02] and traits that make it resistant to its own reactive oxygen its own and its own
[30:06] own reactive oxygen its own and its own reactive oxygen its own superoxide and
[30:08] reactive oxygen its own superoxide and the hydrogen peroxide and and other
[30:10] the hydrogen peroxide and and other forms of reactive oxygen that develop
[30:12] forms of reactive oxygen that develop because of that but the plant becomes
[30:14] because of that but the plant becomes resistant to that and what that means is
[30:16] resistant to that and what that means is the plant is also resistant to stress
[30:19] the plant is also resistant to stress because all stress is oxidative stress
[30:23] because all stress is oxidative stress it all converts into reactive oxygen and
[30:28] it all converts into reactive oxygen and some way and if you get this reactive
[30:29] some way and if you get this reactive oxygen all over the plant then plants
[30:32] oxygen all over the plant then plants become stressed out but if they're doing
[30:34] become stressed out but if they're doing rophy ropy cycle you're going to have
[30:38] rophy ropy cycle you're going to have more resistance to that stress that it
[30:42] more resistance to that stress that it could and stress could be for example
[30:44] could and stress could be for example high salt in the soil it could be heat
[30:46] high salt in the soil it could be heat heat stress you know uh wounding stress
[30:50] heat stress you know uh wounding stress if it's a yard or something that you're
[30:52] if it's a yard or something that you're that someone is uh doing a lot of uh I
[30:55] that someone is uh doing a lot of uh I don't know damage to this turf or soil
[30:58] don't know damage to this turf or soil the turf right the plants there that uh
[31:01] the turf right the plants there that uh any other kind of stress plants during
[31:03] any other kind of stress plants during rophy are more resistant than plants
[31:07] rophy are more resistant than plants that you just feed with fertilizer those
[31:09] that you just feed with fertilizer those are those plants that are just fed with
[31:11] are those plants that are just fed with fertilizer are not going to show the
[31:13] fertilizer are not going to show the same level of hardiness as plants uh
[31:17] same level of hardiness as plants uh with uh doing rophy to get the nutrients
[31:21] with uh doing rophy to get the nutrients and you can also mess this up you know
[31:22] and you can also mess this up you know if you put if you put fertilizers on on
[31:26] if you put if you put fertilizers on on Plants what it what it what it will do
[31:28] Plants what it what it what it will do is it will shut down the the the
[31:31] is it will shut down the the the microbes that are fixing nitrogen it
[31:33] microbes that are fixing nitrogen it will shut down that nitrogen fixing
[31:35] will shut down that nitrogen fixing process and so if that happens plants
[31:39] process and so if that happens plants plants may lose the
[31:41] plants may lose the microbes uh because the well I won't go
[31:44] microbes uh because the well I won't go into details there but they but
[31:46] into details there but they but essentially you're you're short you're
[31:49] essentially you're you're short you're truncating the the normal
[31:52] truncating the the normal system uh that plants use to get the
[31:54] system uh that plants use to get the nutrients from these idic bacteria
[31:58] nutrients from these idic bacteria and then the other thing then the other
[32:00] and then the other thing then the other thing is with more rophy cycle you're
[32:02] thing is with more rophy cycle you're going to have more disease less disease
[32:05] going to have more disease less disease and it's because those same microbes
[32:07] and it's because those same microbes that are involved in rophy cycle uh
[32:10] that are involved in rophy cycle uh change the
[32:11] change the behavior of pathogens you normally
[32:14] behavior of pathogens you normally pathogenic fungi we we don't think of
[32:16] pathogenic fungi we we don't think of fungi is having behavior but they do
[32:19] fungi is having behavior but they do anything they do right one Behavior can
[32:21] anything they do right one Behavior can be bad we could call it virulence and
[32:23] be bad we could call it virulence and one could be good we could call it
[32:26] one could be good we could call it symbiosis or nonvalence right we could
[32:29] symbiosis or nonvalence right we could call it that non-valence and so these
[32:32] call it that non-valence and so these these bacteria will actually uh push the
[32:35] these bacteria will actually uh push the fungus to non virulence to
[32:40] fungus to non virulence to non-pathogenicity and uh you know we've
[32:42] non-pathogenicity and uh you know we've done many many experiments where when
[32:44] done many many experiments where when you remove the microbes from the seeds
[32:48] you remove the microbes from the seeds and seedlings they become uh highly
[32:51] and seedlings they become uh highly vulnerable to fungal diseases their
[32:54] vulnerable to fungal diseases their resistance basically breaks down
[32:55] resistance basically breaks down completely without those bacteria the
[32:58] completely without those bacteria the the bacteria are actually part of the
[33:02] the bacteria are actually part of the immune system of the plant just just
[33:05] immune system of the plant just just like we know that our gut microbes have
[33:08] like we know that our gut microbes have big effects on us and we have to have a
[33:10] big effects on us and we have to have a good mixed uh Community there so that we
[33:13] good mixed uh Community there so that we don't have gut disease and other kinds
[33:14] don't have gut disease and other kinds of diseases right so the same thing with
[33:17] of diseases right so the same thing with plants they need their microbes their
[33:20] plants they need their microbes their endites uh in order to give them that uh
[33:24] endites uh in order to give them that uh protection so what I'm hearing is there
[33:26] protection so what I'm hearing is there is a huge cost the cost of
[33:29] is a huge cost the cost of using chemical fertilizers and there is
[33:33] using chemical fertilizers and there is inputs yeah there is cost it's it's a
[33:36] inputs yeah there is cost it's it's a big cost it's a big cost and we pay it
[33:38] big cost it's a big cost and we pay it you know
[33:39] you know because you know because uh we have to
[33:42] because you know because uh we have to you know we're we pay that cost right I
[33:45] you know we're we pay that cost right I mean that's the bottom line uh we have
[33:47] mean that's the bottom line uh we have to eat so H but all that's based on
[33:52] to eat so H but all that's based on really the idea that that it's all about
[33:54] really the idea that that it's all about the chemistry and it it really that
[33:57] the chemistry and it it really that really is not correct yes it's not it's
[34:01] really is not correct yes it's not it's part it's only partially correct right
[34:03] part it's only partially correct right it's only partially corre yes we can
[34:05] it's only partially corre yes we can manage plants with chemistry but there
[34:07] manage plants with chemistry but there are some other problems then we have
[34:09] are some other problems then we have then we have diseases that become more
[34:11] then we have diseases that become more significant we have more fertilizer we
[34:13] significant we have more fertilizer we have to put on diseases are there then
[34:15] have to put on diseases are there then we've got to put more uh fungicides
[34:18] we've got to put more uh fungicides there uh and plants are not as
[34:22] there uh and plants are not as as well I mean it goes right down to to
[34:26] as well I mean it goes right down to to to uh herban bdes you know even
[34:28] to uh herban bdes you know even herbicides you know herbicides become
[34:31] herbicides you know herbicides become become a problem too that's
[34:35] become a problem too that's yeah that's interesting the image that's
[34:38] yeah that's interesting the image that's coming to my to to me is plants arrive
[34:41] coming to my to to me is plants arrive the seedling arrives or the seed awakes
[34:44] the seedling arrives or the seed awakes and it has this massive amount of in
[34:47] and it has this massive amount of in intelligence and given the right
[34:49] intelligence and given the right environment and the microbes and all the
[34:52] environment and the microbes and all the things it actually has the ability to
[34:55] things it actually has the ability to grow and flourish and every single time
[34:57] grow and flourish and every single time we
[34:59] we um put in something like a chemical or
[35:04] um put in something like a chemical or fertilizer then we're actually taking
[35:06] fertilizer then we're actually taking away the agency so it's not it's almost
[35:08] away the agency so it's not it's almost like not just that a plant is getting
[35:13] like not just that a plant is getting artificial intelligence and artificial
[35:16] artificial intelligence and artificial uh support to grow we're actually
[35:18] uh support to grow we're actually shutting down its intelligence to know
[35:21] shutting down its intelligence to know what to do
[35:22] what to do to provide for itself it's like teaching
[35:26] to provide for itself it's like teaching a teaching somebody had to fish rather
[35:28] a teaching somebody had to fish rather than giving them a fish right we uh we
[35:33] than giving them a fish right we uh we what we do I like to put it a different
[35:35] what we do I like to put it a different way I put it what we what we do is we um
[35:40] way I put it what we what we do is we um we in a sense invalidate the systems
[35:44] we in a sense invalidate the systems that plants are are naturally using to
[35:48] that plants are are naturally using to get nutrients when we put chemicals on
[35:50] get nutrients when we put chemicals on we yeah they can get those nutrients
[35:53] we yeah they can get those nutrients there's no doubt about it but what we do
[35:55] there's no doubt about it but what we do to the plant is we we uh take away its
[36:02] to the plant is we we uh take away its capability to get nutrients from the
[36:06] capability to get nutrients from the bacteria that it normally how they
[36:08] bacteria that it normally how they normally get microbes and nutrients you
[36:11] normally get microbes and nutrients you know use by oxidizing these
[36:14] know use by oxidizing these bacteria now some of these bacteria I
[36:16] bacteria now some of these bacteria I should say there's two sources for those
[36:18] should say there's two sources for those microbes and one source is in the seed
[36:21] microbes and one source is in the seed and we know that some of these bacteria
[36:23] and we know that some of these bacteria Vector on and within the seed itself and
[36:28] Vector on and within the seed itself and uh other bacteria are absorbed directly
[36:31] uh other bacteria are absorbed directly out of the soil so you have multiple
[36:33] out of the soil so you have multiple sources for microbes right and plants
[36:36] sources for microbes right and plants plants are taking in both sources to get
[36:41] plants are taking in both sources to get their their the ones they go through the
[36:43] their their the ones they go through the seed you know some will stay in the
[36:44] seed you know some will stay in the plant some will then go into the roots
[36:46] plant some will then go into the roots and go out into the soil and increase in
[36:48] and go out into the soil and increase in the soil so that when the plant when a
[36:51] the soil so that when the plant when a seed is formed it in ideally if it's in
[36:54] seed is formed it in ideally if it's in a a healthy plant that has all its
[36:56] a a healthy plant that has all its microbes uh you'll have bacteria inside
[37:00] microbes uh you'll have bacteria inside the seed and on the surface of the seed
[37:02] the seed and on the surface of the seed they'll be on tissues that stick on the
[37:05] they'll be on tissues that stick on the seed they'll be there and and and so
[37:07] seed they'll be there and and and so wherever that seed
[37:08] wherever that seed goes H it is already invested with the
[37:13] goes H it is already invested with the microbes that it will need to get a
[37:15] microbes that it will need to get a start right to start growing there of
[37:18] start right to start growing there of course it can then attract other
[37:20] course it can then attract other microbes that go into it but there but
[37:22] microbes that go into it but there but they really have these uh one set of
[37:26] they really have these uh one set of microbes that they car that they carry
[37:29] microbes that they car that they carry with
[37:30] with them that's all that's super
[37:32] them that's all that's super powerful so so with the seeds are are
[37:36] powerful so so with the seeds are are literally formed with the microbes that
[37:38] literally formed with the microbes that they need to get us get a start so what
[37:40] they need to get us get a start so what does
[37:41] does that
[37:44] um so one of the things that we do a lot
[37:49] um so one of the things that we do a lot or some people do more often in organic
[37:51] or some people do more often in organic farming and biodynamic farming is some
[37:54] farming and biodynamic farming is some times we'll do seed soaks and crean
[37:56] times we'll do seed soaks and crean natural farming does seed soaks as well
[37:57] natural farming does seed soaks as well in different in different ways and so is
[38:00] in different in different ways and so is that something that helps or inhibits
[38:05] that something that helps or inhibits the seed or do you know it depends on
[38:07] the seed or do you know it depends on what you soak it in right if you're
[38:09] what you soak it in right if you're soaking it if you soak it in
[38:11] soaking it if you soak it in Clorox or something that would that
[38:13] Clorox or something that would that would kill microbes it would this is a
[38:16] would kill microbes it would this is a very bad thing to do so that is actually
[38:19] very bad thing to do so that is actually a practice because i' had never heard
[38:20] a practice because i' had never heard about that before and I was listening to
[38:22] about that before and I was listening to a podcast the other day and they're
[38:24] a podcast the other day and they're talking about sterilizing seeds and
[38:25] talking about sterilizing seeds and maybe I'm sheltered because I grew up
[38:28] maybe I'm sheltered because I grew up more in an organic farming environment
[38:31] more in an organic farming environment so I'd never come across that before but
[38:32] so I'd never come across that before but that is actually a practice Yeah that's
[38:35] that is actually a practice Yeah that's a bad
[38:36] a bad practice it's a bad pratice it's a bad
[38:38] practice it's a bad pratice it's a bad practice it's a bad practice Yeah you
[38:41] practice it's a bad practice Yeah you know if you put it if you put your seeds
[38:45] know if you put it if you put your seeds then in a very clean environment in a
[38:48] then in a very clean environment in a very organic microbial Rich environment
[38:51] very organic microbial Rich environment they can recapture those microbes or at
[38:54] they can recapture those microbes or at least some of the microbes but right
[38:57] least some of the microbes but right away you know they may not be able to
[38:59] away you know they may not be able to get exact ones you know right away
[39:01] get exact ones you know right away you've put the seedling at a
[39:04] you've put the seedling at a disadvantage now I mean I I people may
[39:07] disadvantage now I mean I I people may have you well I mean here's here's the
[39:09] have you well I mean here's here's the other here's the other another
[39:13] other here's the other another issue with many of our
[39:18] um uh well crops many of our crops the
[39:23] um uh well crops many of our crops the way that we've
[39:25] way that we've domesticated plants uh has
[39:30] domesticated plants uh has has uh tended to uh to cause the loss of
[39:36] has uh tended to uh to cause the loss of part of the microbiome on seeds I mean
[39:39] part of the microbiome on seeds I mean I'll give you an example uh what what
[39:41] I'll give you an example uh what what happens normally with seeds uh is that
[39:46] happens normally with seeds uh is that uh uh the the plant will oftentimes with
[39:51] uh uh the the plant will oftentimes with many seeds will either hold those seeds
[39:53] many seeds will either hold those seeds in the environment where they're going
[39:54] in the environment where they're going to get some moisture I mean consider
[39:56] to get some moisture I mean consider something like corn you know you got a
[39:57] something like corn you know you got a corn cob there the wild corn right that
[40:01] corn cob there the wild corn right that would would stay on the cob and it would
[40:03] would would stay on the cob and it would stay in the weather and they would stay
[40:06] stay in the weather and they would stay there for a a long you know for months
[40:10] there for a a long you know for months before they fall to the ground and then
[40:12] before they fall to the ground and then start to grow in the next Spring right
[40:16] start to grow in the next Spring right uh but what people do and we do this
[40:19] uh but what people do and we do this with all our seeds and it causes a
[40:22] with all our seeds and it causes a problem it but it seems natural to do if
[40:24] problem it but it seems natural to do if you're not thinking about the microbiome
[40:26] you're not thinking about the microbiome of the seed
[40:27] of the seed uh you you gather them soon as they're
[40:30] uh you you gather them soon as they're rip the seeds and then you put them in a
[40:33] rip the seeds and then you put them in a cool dry place and what that does is
[40:37] cool dry place and what that does is that uh that prevents the microbiome of
[40:41] that uh that prevents the microbiome of the seed from fully developing so it
[40:43] the seed from fully developing so it doesn't develop right so it would need
[40:47] doesn't develop right so it would need this moisture you know moisture
[40:49] this moisture you know moisture conditions it would need maybe to fall
[40:51] conditions it would need maybe to fall to the ground and to lay in the dirt you
[40:54] to the ground and to lay in the dirt you know in on the earth on the soil and
[40:56] know in on the earth on the soil and collect microbes so you see the
[40:59] collect microbes so you see the microbiome takes development or takes
[41:02] microbiome takes development or takes ripening the microbes if there's enough
[41:04] ripening the microbes if there's enough moisture around the microbes can divide
[41:07] moisture around the microbes can divide and the tissues that the plant has on
[41:08] and the tissues that the plant has on the seed for them they could divide and
[41:11] the seed for them they could divide and uh then they're they're uh ready to they
[41:14] uh then they're they're uh ready to they have full microbiome they're ready to
[41:16] have full microbiome they're ready to grow and you won't have disease but
[41:18] grow and you won't have disease but because we've removed part of the
[41:21] because we've removed part of the microbes that makes plant seeds more
[41:25] microbes that makes plant seeds more vulnerable so you have to like fungi
[41:28] vulnerable so you have to like fungi then that can colonize a Seedling and
[41:30] then that can colonize a Seedling and knock it out real easy because the
[41:32] knock it out real easy because the microbes aren't there the the bacteria
[41:34] microbes aren't there the the bacteria in specific antifungal right they're not
[41:37] in specific antifungal right they're not they're not really
[41:40] they're not really there the now uh we you we of course use
[41:44] there the now uh we you we of course use chemicals to control that all of the all
[41:47] chemicals to control that all of the all of that you know for growth stimulation
[41:50] of that you know for growth stimulation and everything for corn but the
[41:52] and everything for corn but the indigenous Americans you know they they
[41:55] indigenous Americans you know they they were the ones who
[41:58] were the ones who um who actually in Mexico and the areas
[42:03] um who actually in Mexico and the areas who actually uh domesticated corn and
[42:06] who actually uh domesticated corn and they had the indigenous Americans had
[42:09] they had the indigenous Americans had their own way of using biology to grow
[42:12] their own way of using biology to grow the plant and what they would do
[42:14] the plant and what they would do actually is they would they would like I
[42:16] actually is they would they would like I said they would they would store their
[42:17] said they would they would store their seed they would collect their seed and
[42:19] seed they would collect their seed and they would store their seed in a place
[42:22] they would store their seed in a place that was dry and
[42:23] that was dry and cool uh if at all possible to find a dry
[42:26] cool uh if at all possible to find a dry cool place Place sometimes this wasn't
[42:28] cool place Place sometimes this wasn't possible but typically they would and
[42:30] possible but typically they would and then they would take the seed uh and and
[42:34] then they would take the seed uh and and they would they would then inoculate
[42:36] they would they would then inoculate with bacteria from wild plants and the
[42:39] with bacteria from wild plants and the way that they would do that is they
[42:41] way that they would do that is they would go out into the woodlands North
[42:44] would go out into the woodlands North America this is called iroy corn
[42:47] America this is called iroy corn medicine is what they called it iroy
[42:49] medicine is what they called it iroy corn medicine but they would go out and
[42:50] corn medicine but they would go out and get these wild grasses things like
[42:54] get these wild grasses things like elus uh or hisis the comet common
[42:57] elus uh or hisis the comet common grasses in the area these are uh uh and
[43:01] grasses in the area these are uh uh and fragm mites too this is another another
[43:03] fragm mites too this is another another genus of of grass but these are all wild
[43:06] genus of of grass but these are all wild grasses that are common in North America
[43:09] grasses that are common in North America and and they would take these take the
[43:12] and and they would take these take the roots and they put in water and they
[43:14] roots and they put in water and they would beat up the roots get the microbes
[43:16] would beat up the roots get the microbes off of them and they would even heat
[43:17] off of them and they would even heat that a little bit warm it up a little
[43:19] that a little bit warm it up a little bit and then they would take their seeds
[43:23] bit and then they would take their seeds uh or the corn seeds they corn kernels
[43:25] uh or the corn seeds they corn kernels and they would put it in the water a
[43:26] and they would put it in the water a little bit of water and they would let
[43:28] little bit of water and they would let it germinate a little bit till the root
[43:30] it germinate a little bit till the root came out and got colonized because they
[43:32] came out and got colonized because they didn't know there was any microbes there
[43:34] didn't know there was any microbes there at all they didn't know anything about
[43:35] at all they didn't know anything about that they thought this was magic okay
[43:38] that they thought this was magic okay this was this was magic for them iroy
[43:41] this was this was magic for them iroy corn medicine but then they would take
[43:43] corn medicine but then they would take the horn that partially germinated and
[43:45] the horn that partially germinated and they would plant it in their
[43:47] they would plant it in their Rose uh in their field or in their
[43:49] Rose uh in their field or in their Mounds however they were doing if they
[43:51] Mounds however they were doing if they were doing three sister agriculture
[43:53] were doing three sister agriculture whatever they were doing they would put
[43:54] whatever they were doing they would put them there and then that and then that
[43:57] them there and then that and then that would recover some of the microbes that
[44:00] would recover some of the microbes that had been lost uh in the the way that
[44:03] had been lost uh in the the way that we're handling our our seeds and so to
[44:07] we're handling our our seeds and so to go back to the problem of people
[44:10] go back to the problem of people sterilizing what the reason they're
[44:12] sterilizing what the reason they're sterilizing is because they lost a lot
[44:15] sterilizing is because they lost a lot of the bacteria on those seeds that
[44:17] of the bacteria on those seeds that would actually cover that would control
[44:20] would actually cover that would control the fun fungi that they have there so
[44:22] the fun fungi that they have there so they're left trying to kill the fungi
[44:25] they're left trying to kill the fungi you know this is kind of a H it seems
[44:28] you know this is kind of a H it seems counterintuitive right seems
[44:29] counterintuitive right seems counterintuitive one microbe is a
[44:31] counterintuitive one microbe is a problem so you put other microbes on but
[44:33] problem so you put other microbes on but that's what needs to happen is you the
[44:36] that's what needs to happen is you the the seed needs to have more more
[44:39] the seed needs to have more more microbes that would actually control the
[44:42] microbes that would actually control the the the pathogen rather than doing
[44:45] the the pathogen rather than doing something like uh sterilizing seeds
[44:48] something like uh sterilizing seeds which kills everything it's a it's a
[44:50] which kills everything it's a it's a kind of it's almost like if we took a
[44:52] kind of it's almost like if we took a bunch of antibiotic right killed our gut
[44:54] bunch of antibiotic right killed our gut microbiome that's not a good thing to do
[44:57] microbiome that's not a good thing to do right so what I'm hearing and
[45:00] right so what I'm hearing and understanding is the the riseof fagy
[45:03] understanding is the the riseof fagy might happen and
[45:05] might happen and start under like in the soil the
[45:09] start under like in the soil the beginning of the cycle or maybe just
[45:12] beginning of the cycle or maybe just part of the cycle is actually in the
[45:14] part of the cycle is actually in the seed itself so the seed needs to be in
[45:18] seed itself so the seed needs to be in good integrity and have a healthy
[45:19] good integrity and have a healthy microbiome and have all the microbes
[45:24] microbiome and have all the microbes heading into not not all of them but but
[45:27] heading into not not all of them but but there are is a certain a certain
[45:31] there are is a certain a certain number that a a certain Community that's
[45:35] number that a a certain Community that's vectored inside the seed near the embryo
[45:39] vectored inside the seed near the embryo just around actually around the embryo
[45:41] just around actually around the embryo we can see them in there and sections
[45:43] we can see them in there and sections like tomato you know we've done sections
[45:45] like tomato you know we've done sections of some of these I think mints and
[45:47] of some of these I think mints and tomatoes and we could see the bacteria
[45:49] tomatoes and we could see the bacteria in there in the
[45:51] in there in the sections also some of them you can't
[45:53] sections also some of them you can't remove from sterilizing that way we
[45:56] remove from sterilizing that way we that's how we know they're in there but
[45:58] that's how we know they're in there but others are vectored right on the seed
[46:00] others are vectored right on the seed surface and so you have tissues like
[46:01] surface and so you have tissues like some grasses uh that have little uh
[46:04] some grasses uh that have little uh Limas and uh uh tissues little little
[46:08] Limas and uh uh tissues little little leaf tissues that stick on the seed and
[46:10] leaf tissues that stick on the seed and those actually carry microbes on them
[46:13] those actually carry microbes on them that's so cool so James is a hot water
[46:16] that's so cool so James is a hot water bath because some people soak their
[46:18] bath because some people soak their seeds in a hot water bath which is
[46:19] seeds in a hot water bath which is different than Clorox or sterilizing
[46:21] different than Clorox or sterilizing from what I understand is is that
[46:24] from what I understand is is that something that will damage the
[46:25] something that will damage the microbiology of the seed a warm water
[46:27] microbiology of the seed a warm water bath or or is like should we avoid that
[46:30] bath or or is like should we avoid that or warm water bath is not going to hurt
[46:32] or warm water bath is not going to hurt no it's not going to hurt that's not
[46:33] no it's not going to hurt that's not going to hurt these these microbes many
[46:35] going to hurt these these microbes many of the microbes on the seeds are uh in a
[46:39] of the microbes on the seeds are uh in a bofilm form right and they're pretty
[46:41] bofilm form right and they're pretty resistant you know they'll last dry
[46:44] resistant you know they'll last dry they'll last I mean we've had seed of
[46:47] they'll last I mean we've had seed of grasses like tall fescue that are still
[46:51] grasses like tall fescue that are still viable with their microbiome stored in
[46:53] viable with their microbiome stored in the
[46:54] the refrigerator uh for a long period
[46:57] refrigerator uh for a long period time uh uh I mean I think we're going on
[47:01] time uh uh I mean I think we're going on at least 10 years or 12 years for some
[47:03] at least 10 years or 12 years for some of our seed supply the the the
[47:05] of our seed supply the the the microbiomes will last a good amount of
[47:07] microbiomes will last a good amount of time so long as the seed is is dormant
[47:10] time so long as the seed is is dormant now there is an issue with uh the death
[47:13] now there is an issue with uh the death of the microbiome and uh uh for example
[47:17] of the microbiome and uh uh for example some of the decline that happens in
[47:20] some of the decline that happens in seeds as the germination percentage goes
[47:22] seeds as the germination percentage goes down you know people figure well the
[47:24] down you know people figure well the embryos dying in there and so the not
[47:28] embryos dying in there and so the not the germination percent is going down
[47:31] the germination percent is going down but but it's been shown that you can put
[47:33] but but it's been shown that you can put indites IND the fiic bacteria back on
[47:36] indites IND the fiic bacteria back on those seeds and recover the the the
[47:41] those seeds and recover the the the germination percent so you bring them
[47:43] germination percent so you bring them back up in fact wow A friend of mine at
[47:48] back up in fact wow A friend of mine at another
[47:49] another University uh um uh actually did a
[47:53] University uh um uh actually did a patent using one of the indites that he
[47:56] patent using one of the indites that he did as a as a means to uh to rejuvenate
[48:00] did as a as a means to uh to rejuvenate old wheat seeds and other other seeds
[48:04] old wheat seeds and other other seeds so that's neat yeah that's really cool
[48:09] so that's neat yeah that's really cool so if you were to
[48:11] so if you were to describe rise aagy or
[48:16] rophy
[48:18] rophy to a five-year-old how would you explain
[48:21] to a five-year-old how would you explain it to them plants eating bacteria
[48:26] it to them plants eating bacteria [Music]
[48:27] [Music] that's what I would say that's what I
[48:30] that's what I would say that's what I say R Riso Fiji Riso root
[48:33] say R Riso Fiji Riso root Fiji means eating Fiji means eating uh
[48:37] Fiji means eating Fiji means eating uh Riso root so it's root eating and this
[48:39] Riso root so it's root eating and this is the this is named by an Australian
[48:42] is the this is named by an Australian group Queensland Australia who who
[48:46] group Queensland Australia who who really uh identified the process and
[48:49] really uh identified the process and then they gave it the name
[48:51] then they gave it the name rophy uh and then we we took it from
[48:54] rophy uh and then we we took it from there and started to uh understand the
[48:57] there and started to uh understand the biology and how it worked so uh this
[49:00] biology and how it worked so uh this Australian group really gets the credit
[49:03] Australian group really gets the credit for first pointing that out in a paper
[49:06] for first pointing that out in a paper in 2010 we were actually working on this
[49:10] in 2010 we were actually working on this around that around that time working on
[49:12] around that around that time working on this oxidative extraction of nutrients
[49:14] this oxidative extraction of nutrients in Roots and on Roots but uh they they
[49:17] in Roots and on Roots but uh they they get the credit and hence when we
[49:19] get the credit and hence when we understood it was a cycle you know the
[49:22] understood it was a cycle you know the only thing to do is then to take rophy
[49:26] only thing to do is then to take rophy and tag the cycle on it right right put
[49:29] and tag the cycle on it right right put the cycle in the term and then ex to in
[49:32] the cycle in the term and then ex to in order to explain what's going on uh in
[49:35] order to explain what's going on uh in more
[49:37] more detail so it's root eating root eating
[49:40] detail so it's root eating root eating Roots eating soil microbes that's that's
[49:43] Roots eating soil microbes that's that's it I mean that's simple that's simply
[49:46] it I mean that's simple that's simply what it is and they they digest them uh
[49:49] what it is and they they digest them uh using reactive oxygen using super oxide
[49:52] using reactive oxygen using super oxide which is also cheap for the plant
[49:54] which is also cheap for the plant because it gets oxygen right out of the
[49:55] because it gets oxygen right out of the air it uses the oxygen to get the super
[49:59] air it uses the oxygen to get the super oxide that it can zap these microbes
[50:00] oxide that it can zap these microbes with it's really cool right so does that
[50:03] with it's really cool right so does that mean that so where does that leave a
[50:06] mean that so where does that leave a plant on the like vegan
[50:09] plant on the like vegan carnivore scale question well I think
[50:12] carnivore scale question well I think it's a I think they are well they're not
[50:15] it's a I think they are well they're not eating animals unless you consider
[50:17] eating animals unless you consider bacteria animals or you know they also
[50:21] bacteria animals or you know they also will take in yeasts into their cells too
[50:23] will take in yeasts into their cells too so yeasts can be part of the riseof
[50:26] so yeasts can be part of the riseof process they can be they can be absorbed
[50:28] process they can be they can be absorbed in there we can see them and we've used
[50:30] in there we can see them and we've used them we've done lots of experiments uh
[50:33] them we've done lots of experiments uh so uh they're eating fungi I guess
[50:36] so uh they're eating fungi I guess vegans can eat fungi they're eating
[50:38] vegans can eat fungi they're eating bacteria I guess that would be like I
[50:40] bacteria I guess that would be like I don't know Pro eating uh if we eat
[50:44] don't know Pro eating uh if we eat yogurt can we be uh I guess we're not
[50:48] yogurt can we be uh I guess we're not truly a you're vegetarian but not vegan
[50:50] truly a you're vegetarian but not vegan not a vegan we could be a vegetarian
[50:52] not a vegan we could be a vegetarian right if we're eating yogurt yeah right
[50:54] right if we're eating yogurt yeah right so if we're a vegetarian so plant would
[50:57] so if we're a vegetarian so plant would be would it be
[50:59] be would it be vegetarians yeah but you know it's also
[51:02] vegetarians yeah but you know it's also possible and we don't know we don't know
[51:04] possible and we don't know we don't know I've never seen it but it could be
[51:06] I've never seen it but it could be possible that plants are absorbing more
[51:09] possible that plants are absorbing more microbes than just bacteria and fungi
[51:12] microbes than just bacteria and fungi and that we don't know that we don't
[51:13] and that we don't know that we don't know you know we don't in my lab we
[51:15] know you know we don't in my lab we don't work with the protozoans as
[51:18] don't work with the protozoans as much but I mean they could who knows you
[51:21] much but I mean they could who knows you know I don't know what they could be
[51:23] know I don't know what they could be absorbing and if they're if they start
[51:26] absorbing and if they're if they start eating
[51:27] eating protozoans then you're something right
[51:29] protozoans then you're something right at the foot of the animal line right
[51:31] at the foot of the animal line right that goes to animals and then you say
[51:33] that goes to animals and then you say Well they're eating animals right if
[51:35] Well they're eating animals right if they're if they're doing that we don't
[51:37] they're if they're doing that we don't know if they're doing that yeah we don't
[51:38] know if they're doing that yeah we don't know yet yeah then they would beers
[51:40] know yet yeah then they would beers carnivores then they'd be carnivores oh
[51:42] carnivores then they'd be carnivores oh that's fascinating so just to help um
[51:45] that's fascinating so just to help um pull things a little bit apart so um
[51:48] pull things a little bit apart so um just if again I'm a 5-year-old can you
[51:51] just if again I'm a 5-year-old can you please tell me what bacteria are fungi
[51:55] please tell me what bacteria are fungi are micro and yeah just pull apart the
[51:59] are micro and yeah just pull apart the big parts for me I will
[52:01] big parts for me I will bacteria are the some of the simplest
[52:06] bacteria are the some of the simplest organisms that exist they are simple
[52:10] organisms that exist they are simple simple organization and they're tiny you
[52:12] simple organization and they're tiny you know you don't get giant bacteria
[52:14] know you don't get giant bacteria because they're they're kind of simple
[52:17] because they're they're kind of simple so uh they're they're the simplest organ
[52:20] so uh they're they're the simplest organ really among the simplest organisms
[52:22] really among the simplest organisms these BAC the bacteria but there also
[52:24] these BAC the bacteria but there also may be other groups when I say bacteria
[52:28] may be other groups when I say bacteria I'm technically I'm not I'm not parsing
[52:30] I'm technically I'm not I'm not parsing out different groups but it could be
[52:32] out different groups but it could be more complicated if we did that so
[52:33] more complicated if we did that so they're the simplist organisms they've
[52:36] they're the simplist organisms they've always been on Earth you know before
[52:39] always been on Earth you know before before the plants developed came about
[52:43] before the plants developed came about uh and the Animals came about we had
[52:45] uh and the Animals came about we had bacteria so more than likely the early
[52:48] bacteria so more than likely the early early
[52:49] early developing uh plants and animals uh were
[52:53] developing uh plants and animals uh were s they were certainly they came from
[52:55] s they were certainly they came from these m mes right they came from
[52:57] these m mes right they came from essentially bacteria Ora these Pro these
[52:59] essentially bacteria Ora these Pro these simple simple organisms right they came
[53:03] simple simple organisms right they came uh and they were using bacteria we know
[53:06] uh and they were using bacteria we know that because plants use bacteria now on
[53:09] that because plants use bacteria now on their roots and we could look at the
[53:10] their roots and we could look at the very primitive ones like mosses you know
[53:13] very primitive ones like mosses you know some of the simplest plants right they
[53:15] some of the simplest plants right they have bacteria all in their tissues uh so
[53:18] have bacteria all in their tissues uh so very likely plants have always had the
[53:21] very likely plants have always had the animals it's the same deal you know they
[53:24] animals it's the same deal you know they evolved they developed
[53:26] evolved they developed in a like a primordial soup right with
[53:30] in a like a primordial soup right with all this stuff in them that they could
[53:31] all this stuff in them that they could feed on with bacteria and everything
[53:33] feed on with bacteria and everything else but when they left that primordial
[53:37] else but when they left that primordial soup we carried that primordial soup
[53:39] soup we carried that primordial soup with us in our bodies in our guts right
[53:41] with us in our bodies in our guts right that's the primordial soup all those
[53:43] that's the primordial soup all those microbes in there you know that is that
[53:46] microbes in there you know that is that is this is where plants and animals came
[53:49] is this is where plants and animals came from initially so they had them there
[53:52] from initially so they had them there okay but now fungi that's another microb
[53:55] okay but now fungi that's another microb you know it's more complex than the
[53:58] you know it's more complex than the bacteria though they have typically
[54:01] bacteria though they have typically they're the ones like your mushrooms
[54:03] they're the ones like your mushrooms right mushrooms but they have this this
[54:05] right mushrooms but they have this this smaller phase of highl melal phase that
[54:09] smaller phase of highl melal phase that uh which is just tubular growth in the
[54:12] uh which is just tubular growth in the soil or in the plant or in whatever it's
[54:15] soil or in the plant or in whatever it's degrading in wood that it's breaking
[54:16] degrading in wood that it's breaking down you know it'll that is the fungus
[54:18] down you know it'll that is the fungus and they'll that's fungal so they're
[54:20] and they'll that's fungal so they're completely different group more
[54:22] completely different group more advanced uh but still small enough that
[54:25] advanced uh but still small enough that plants can can suck them in and get
[54:28] plants can can suck them in and get nutrients out of them and so okay so
[54:31] nutrients out of them and so okay so those two fungi fungi bacteria what else
[54:34] those two fungi fungi bacteria what else did you say Natalie I can't remember
[54:35] did you say Natalie I can't remember what else um the main players in the
[54:38] what else um the main players in the soil like that's happening with that the
[54:40] soil like that's happening with that the plants are interacting
[54:42] plants are interacting with that's them thank you yeah and then
[54:46] with that's them thank you yeah and then to help people understand like my Kiza
[54:48] to help people understand like my Kiza fungi fall into the fungi so then and
[54:50] fungi fall into the fungi so then and the protozoa like where do they where do
[54:52] the protozoa like where do they where do they fall I will I will I will tell you
[54:55] they fall I will I will I will tell you uh it's a good question
[54:58] uh it's a good question uh so so
[55:01] uh so so plants get their nutrients in multiple
[55:04] plants get their nutrients in multiple ways right we know we've always believed
[55:08] ways right we know we've always believed that plants were getting nutrients uh
[55:11] that plants were getting nutrients uh dissolved in soil water you know just
[55:14] dissolved in soil water you know just we've always known that that's why our
[55:16] we've always known that that's why our fertilizers work because you know it
[55:19] fertilizers work because you know it goes right into soil water and they can
[55:21] goes right into soil water and they can absorb them from the soil water uh we a
[55:25] absorb them from the soil water uh we a few years ago
[55:27] few years ago uh maybe a uh maybe a century ago or so
[55:30] uh maybe a uh maybe a century ago or so uh it became clear that plants were also
[55:34] uh it became clear that plants were also connecting with fungi and there are
[55:36] connecting with fungi and there are certain types of fungi called micis that
[55:38] certain types of fungi called micis that will go into the roots this is what
[55:42] will go into the roots this is what plants do this is how another way that
[55:44] plants do this is how another way that plant get nutrients is they'll hook up
[55:46] plant get nutrients is they'll hook up with micro risal fungi and then those
[55:49] with micro risal fungi and then those highi will go out into the soil and then
[55:52] highi will go out into the soil and then they the the fungi then absorb nutrients
[55:57] they the the fungi then absorb nutrients uh interact with bacteria in the soil uh
[56:01] uh interact with bacteria in the soil uh and get nutrients from them and so
[56:03] and get nutrients from them and so there's this they in essentially they
[56:06] there's this they in essentially they the micro the micro them will get those
[56:08] the micro the micro them will get those nutrients and bring them back to the
[56:09] nutrients and bring them back to the plant because that's another way plants
[56:11] plant because that's another way plants are getting nutrients right the third
[56:13] are getting nutrients right the third way is that they're absorbing bacteria
[56:17] way is that they're absorbing bacteria directly and oxidizing them so that's
[56:19] directly and oxidizing them so that's the third the third main route of
[56:22] the third the third main route of nutrient absorption in Plants that's the
[56:24] nutrient absorption in Plants that's the part that wasn't known at all is the
[56:26] part that wasn't known at all is the riseof fagy which we've R riseof fagy
[56:29] riseof fagy which we've R riseof fagy cycle that's the riseof fagy that we're
[56:30] cycle that's the riseof fagy that we're talking about yeah that's the new that's
[56:32] talking about yeah that's the new that's the new thing awesome and so knowing
[56:35] the new thing awesome and so knowing what we know now knowing what we're
[56:37] what we know now knowing what we're discovering now what are what are the
[56:40] discovering now what are what are the next questions and what are the
[56:43] next questions and what are the next
[56:45] next um conversations we might want to be
[56:48] um conversations we might want to be having with ourselves and with our
[56:50] having with ourselves and with our colleagues and with our friends and our
[56:52] colleagues and with our friends and our family as we are deepening into
[56:55] family as we are deepening into understanding the int intelligence of
[56:57] understanding the int intelligence of these plants that we well I that's a
[57:01] these plants that we well I that's a good that's a good question
[57:04] good that's a good question uh what I
[57:06] uh what I think is the next thing I mean we're
[57:08] think is the next thing I mean we're obviously looking at details in my lab
[57:10] obviously looking at details in my lab trying to figure out you know how
[57:12] trying to figure out you know how everything works right and and trying to
[57:15] everything works right and and trying to measure precisely what nutrients are are
[57:17] measure precisely what nutrients are are being oxidized from these microbes right
[57:20] being oxidized from these microbes right and it turns out every microb gives
[57:22] and it turns out every microb gives different nutrients there's not the same
[57:24] different nutrients there's not the same one for any microbe so they have
[57:26] one for any microbe so they have different capabilities in terms of so
[57:28] different capabilities in terms of so plants are getting different ones right
[57:30] plants are getting different ones right I mean that's the case there's a lot of
[57:31] I mean that's the case there's a lot of details that have to be figured out and
[57:33] details that have to be figured out and a lot of this is on a a SC a science lab
[57:37] a lot of this is on a a SC a science lab level right that that most of us who are
[57:40] level right that that most of us who are not don't have labs and aren't wouldn't
[57:43] not don't have labs and aren't wouldn't be able to do there's a lot of that but
[57:45] be able to do there's a lot of that but there is sub there are aspects that are
[57:47] there is sub there are aspects that are not on that level that really
[57:51] not on that level that really require people to experiment and figure
[57:56] require people to experiment and figure out how they can use the uh they can
[58:00] out how they can use the uh they can manipulate the
[58:02] manipulate the microbiome manage the microbiome of the
[58:05] microbiome manage the microbiome of the soil and the plant in order to cultivate
[58:08] soil and the plant in order to cultivate crops and doing doing techniques like
[58:11] crops and doing doing techniques like for example there are there are people
[58:13] for example there are there are people who uh do ferments and you get you get
[58:16] who uh do ferments and you get you get you pro products or some products or
[58:18] you pro products or some products or people do ferments on their own or
[58:20] people do ferments on their own or they'll do uh they'll get microbes
[58:22] they'll do uh they'll get microbes they'll get a uh what compost water
[58:26] they'll get a uh what compost water wases and those things that are bunch of
[58:28] wases and those things that are bunch of microbes together and they'll put those
[58:31] microbes together and they'll put those around the plant or on the
[58:33] around the plant or on the plant maybe even on the leaves right
[58:36] plant maybe even on the leaves right because that actually will stimulate the
[58:39] because that actually will stimulate the you know microbial entry into plants and
[58:42] you know microbial entry into plants and we didn't talk about that but the plants
[58:44] we didn't talk about that but the plants can get in on the surface of the leaves
[58:46] can get in on the surface of the leaves around the marish stem and so forth so
[58:47] around the marish stem and so forth so they can get those microbes in but into
[58:49] they can get those microbes in but into the you put those things onto the soil
[58:51] the you put those things onto the soil you know putting for example different
[58:53] you know putting for example different types of uh uh microbial
[58:57] types of uh uh microbial either nutrient solution to stimulate
[58:58] either nutrient solution to stimulate the microbes or or a a solu a suspension
[59:04] the microbes or or a a solu a suspension of microbes from any of those kind of
[59:06] of microbes from any of those kind of ferments or or compost washes or
[59:09] ferments or or compost washes or whatever to put the microbes there so
[59:11] whatever to put the microbes there so these and and also the ways that you uh
[59:14] these and and also the ways that you uh treat the plant for example the seeds
[59:16] treat the plant for example the seeds you know to get those microbes
[59:18] you know to get those microbes functioning uh ways to restore
[59:21] functioning uh ways to restore microbiomes you know I mean all of this
[59:24] microbiomes you know I mean all of this you know there's a lot that has to be
[59:25] you know there's a lot that has to be done that scientists in their
[59:29] done that scientists in their Laboratories are not going to be able to
[59:31] Laboratories are not going to be able to do this is going to really require a
[59:34] do this is going to really require a broad base of human
[59:38] broad base of human exploration uh individuals and companies
[59:42] exploration uh individuals and companies there are a lot of companies that are
[59:43] there are a lot of companies that are trying to do this they're regenerative
[59:45] trying to do this they're regenerative agriculture companies so they're trying
[59:47] agriculture companies so they're trying to find new ways to stimulate the
[59:51] to find new ways to stimulate the microbiome uh and then thus stimulate
[59:54] microbiome uh and then thus stimulate microbial growth it so it is but it's
[59:57] microbial growth it so it is but it's not something it's not something that
[01:00:01] not something it's not something that I'm for example going to be able to do
[01:00:03] I'm for example going to be able to do for us the best thing that that I can do
[01:00:08] for us the best thing that that I can do is to you know keep studying the details
[01:00:11] is to you know keep studying the details and to let everybody know what we're
[01:00:14] and to let everybody know what we're finding that that's and but it's going
[01:00:16] finding that that's and but it's going to take all of us you know to create a
[01:00:18] to take all of us you know to create a new agriculture right a new biological
[01:00:21] new agriculture right a new biological agriculture it's going to take all of us
[01:00:24] agriculture it's going to take all of us we don't know what the we don't know
[01:00:26] we don't know what the we don't know what the you know what the limitations
[01:00:28] what the you know what the limitations are you know can we do it in all kinds
[01:00:31] are you know can we do it in all kinds of soils you know there may be some
[01:00:32] of soils you know there may be some soils deserts for example we're trying
[01:00:34] soils deserts for example we're trying to bloom a desert uh it may be hard to
[01:00:38] to bloom a desert uh it may be hard to to do this because there's nothing in
[01:00:40] to do this because there's nothing in the soil uh you know it's almost but but
[01:00:43] the soil uh you know it's almost but but you get my point you know we don't know
[01:00:45] you get my point you know we don't know where the limits are we don't know
[01:00:47] where the limits are we don't know exactly what are the techniques that are
[01:00:49] exactly what are the techniques that are going to be use useful we know some
[01:00:52] going to be use useful we know some things that people have done that seem
[01:00:54] things that people have done that seem to be working and the reason they seem
[01:00:56] to be working and the reason they seem to be working is because plants get
[01:00:58] to be working is because plants get nutrients from those microbes and other
[01:01:01] nutrients from those microbes and other benefits from those microbes but you
[01:01:03] benefits from those microbes but you know
[01:01:04] know it's it it it opens a
[01:01:08] it's it it it opens a door it sure does it opens the door wide
[01:01:10] door it sure does it opens the door wide open and I love that because I mean the
[01:01:13] open and I love that because I mean the gardener can do it at home just by doing
[01:01:16] gardener can do it at home just by doing compost washes and it leads right into
[01:01:20] compost washes and it leads right into big egg that can be doing it with just
[01:01:22] big egg that can be doing it with just changing the way they do things even
[01:01:24] changing the way they do things even introducing cover crop or yeah um
[01:01:28] introducing cover crop or yeah um there's a book also Natalie that
[01:01:31] there's a book also Natalie that uh um I don't know if you're familiar
[01:01:33] uh um I don't know if you're familiar with Jeff lowenfels you know I just
[01:01:35] with Jeff lowenfels you know I just interviewed Jeff this week just
[01:01:37] interviewed Jeff this week just interviewed Jeff did he talk about
[01:01:39] interviewed Jeff did he talk about teaming with bacteria yeah that's why I
[01:01:42] teaming with bacteria yeah that's why I yeah and um I yeah that's why I wanted I
[01:01:45] yeah and um I yeah that's why I wanted I wanted to have you guys in the next
[01:01:47] wanted to have you guys in the next magazine together yeah so yeah it'd be
[01:01:50] magazine together yeah so yeah it'd be good Jeff Jeff did a really good job on
[01:01:52] good Jeff Jeff did a really good job on his book with the biology you know it's
[01:01:55] his book with the biology you know it's reachable right he did he did I mean
[01:01:58] reachable right he did he did I mean your guests already your watch people
[01:02:01] your guests already your watch people who are your audience already knows you
[01:02:03] who are your audience already knows you know he because you did it last week but
[01:02:06] know he because you did it last week but uh uh he you know the the basic biology
[01:02:10] uh uh he you know the the basic biology he did a great job on that explaining it
[01:02:13] he did a great job on that explaining it he writes very well it's and it's a book
[01:02:15] he writes very well it's and it's a book it's a it's not a thick book you know so
[01:02:17] it's a it's not a thick book you know so it's it's easily
[01:02:19] it's it's easily read and the teeming with bacteria is
[01:02:23] read and the teeming with bacteria is what it's called and I think it's not
[01:02:24] what it's called and I think it's not expensive no it's not you know Jeff I I
[01:02:28] expensive no it's not you know Jeff I I I have such a deep appreciation for Jeff
[01:02:30] I have such a deep appreciation for Jeff because his books are easy to read
[01:02:32] because his books are easy to read they're easy to understand and they can
[01:02:34] they're easy to understand and they can be they can meet um a kindergarten
[01:02:37] be they can meet um a kindergarten teacher all the way to a farmer who has
[01:02:39] teacher all the way to a farmer who has been farming for decades or his fifth
[01:02:41] been farming for decades or his fifth generation
[01:02:42] generation and to a person who absolutely knows
[01:02:45] and to a person who absolutely knows nothing and so this is his book teaming
[01:02:47] nothing and so this is his book teaming with microbes which I have and so this
[01:02:48] with microbes which I have and so this is the thickness of it and it's just
[01:02:52] is the thickness of it and it's just like you said it has it has pictures and
[01:02:54] like you said it has it has pictures and it's simple and it's easy to understand
[01:02:55] it's simple and it's easy to understand so thanks for presenting that you're
[01:02:57] so thanks for presenting that you're welcome that's the teaming with microbes
[01:02:59] welcome that's the teaming with microbes right but this mic the one that's out is
[01:03:03] right but this mic the one that's out is teaming with bacteria that's coming out
[01:03:05] teaming with bacteria that's coming out he to it's already in Australia he said
[01:03:07] he to it's already in Australia he said I think he told me it was the 26th or
[01:03:10] I think he told me it was the 26th or something like that it's supposed to be
[01:03:11] something like that it's supposed to be out of 27th of this month yeah team with
[01:03:14] out of 27th of this month yeah team with bacteria brand new bacteria brand new
[01:03:16] bacteria brand new bacteria brand new brand new yeah and it has all your
[01:03:19] brand new yeah and it has all your groundbreaking work in it so that's
[01:03:21] groundbreaking work in it so that's really
[01:03:22] really exciting it is it what's most important
[01:03:25] exciting it is it what's most important to you about the work you're
[01:03:27] to you about the work you're doing why is it so important uh because
[01:03:30] doing why is it so important uh because I think it changes the way we think
[01:03:32] I think it changes the way we think about plants and plant cultivation I
[01:03:34] about plants and plant cultivation I think it changes things it changes
[01:03:36] think it changes things it changes things it opens like I said I said it
[01:03:39] things it opens like I said I said it opens a door for everybody now it takes
[01:03:42] opens a door for everybody now it takes people you know it's a it's hard for
[01:03:45] people you know it's a it's hard for people to you know it seems so radical I
[01:03:48] people to you know it seems so radical I mean when you think about it what we're
[01:03:49] mean when you think about it what we're saying is something that is really hard
[01:03:53] saying is something that is really hard for a lot of people and that is that
[01:03:55] for a lot of people and that is that plants are absorbing bacteria into their
[01:04:00] plants are absorbing bacteria into their cells right that's a that's a that's
[01:04:04] cells right that's a that's a that's a that's a
[01:04:06] a that's a door uh that a lot of people is so new
[01:04:10] door uh that a lot of people is so new to a lot of people they they can't
[01:04:11] to a lot of people they they can't conceive of it I I've looked at you know
[01:04:14] conceive of it I I've looked at you know people before
[01:04:16] people before we described it before the Australian
[01:04:18] we described it before the Australian group discussed it uh before we
[01:04:21] group discussed it uh before we described it to the extent that we
[01:04:24] described it to the extent that we described it also and many different
[01:04:26] described it also and many different plants uh uh there wasn't much known
[01:04:30] plants uh uh there wasn't much known about you know absorbing into the cells
[01:04:33] about you know absorbing into the cells actually into the root cells I mean that
[01:04:35] actually into the root cells I mean that is that is radically different and so uh
[01:04:39] is that is radically different and so uh people just have not there's like a
[01:04:41] people just have not there's like a barrier there's a it's like uh blocks on
[01:04:46] barrier there's a it's like uh blocks on eyes you know and we I can look for
[01:04:48] eyes you know and we I can look for example many many
[01:04:50] example many many papers and uh you could see these things
[01:04:52] papers and uh you could see these things very easily in root hairs as they're
[01:04:54] very easily in root hairs as they're ejected and we can watch them being
[01:04:56] ejected and we can watch them being ejected from the root hairs uh but uh in
[01:04:59] ejected from the root hairs uh but uh in the in the photographs in the literature
[01:05:02] the in the photographs in the literature people will point to them inside the
[01:05:04] people will point to them inside the root cells and they call them bices
[01:05:06] root cells and they call them bices bices and we could see those PCT from
[01:05:09] bices and we could see those PCT from the pictures we could see the bacteria
[01:05:11] the pictures we could see the bacteria also accumulating at the tips where they
[01:05:13] also accumulating at the tips where they were being ejected and they never
[01:05:15] were being ejected and they never noticed them they never they never
[01:05:17] noticed them they never they never called these bacteria they only call
[01:05:20] called these bacteria they only call them vesicles vesicles vesicles and then
[01:05:22] them vesicles vesicles vesicles and then they ignore what happens onto the root
[01:05:24] they ignore what happens onto the root tip surface it's because we're blind
[01:05:27] tip surface it's because we're blind until you see it the first time you know
[01:05:30] until you see it the first time you know we're
[01:05:32] we're blind this this is this is like nature
[01:05:34] blind this this is this is like nature you know we think we have everything
[01:05:36] you know we think we have everything figured out but we really don't in fact
[01:05:38] figured out but we really don't in fact we don't even see what we don't
[01:05:41] we don't even see what we don't understand we don't see it we're blind
[01:05:43] understand we don't see it we're blind to it and and that's that's the
[01:05:46] to it and and that's that's the phenomenon but you can look in the
[01:05:47] phenomenon but you can look in the literature and you can see that they
[01:05:49] literature and you can see that they were there all along people just didn't
[01:05:51] were there all along people just didn't recognize didn't recognize them
[01:05:56] and when you think about the work that
[01:05:58] and when you think about the work that you're doing and
[01:05:59] you're doing and how
[01:06:02] how um meaningful and important it is to you
[01:06:05] um meaningful and important it is to you and to what we're
[01:06:07] and to what we're discovering in the way
[01:06:11] discovering in the way that plants interact with their
[01:06:15] that plants interact with their surroundings and how we interact with
[01:06:17] surroundings and how we interact with each other what is the most exciting
[01:06:20] each other what is the most exciting part of that and most meaningful part of
[01:06:22] part of that and most meaningful part of that when you think about your friends
[01:06:23] that when you think about your friends and your family and the impact that has
[01:06:25] and your family and the impact that has on the people you most deeply care
[01:06:31] about that's a deep question Natalie can
[01:06:34] about that's a deep question Natalie can you rephrase that can you rephrase that
[01:06:37] you rephrase that can you rephrase that in another way so that I can yeah I
[01:06:39] in another way so that I can yeah I can't quite I can't quite I can't quite
[01:06:43] can't quite I can't quite I can't quite yeah well I'm curious you you clearly
[01:06:46] yeah well I'm curious you you clearly have a deep passion about an excitement
[01:06:49] have a deep passion about an excitement you have a deep excitement
[01:06:51] you have a deep excitement about the intelligence of plants and
[01:06:54] about the intelligence of plants and what we're learning about them and I'm
[01:06:56] what we're learning about them and I'm curious when you think
[01:06:58] curious when you think about that understanding and it going
[01:07:03] about that understanding and it going beyond the lab beyond the microscope
[01:07:07] beyond the lab beyond the microscope into the ethos of your friends and your
[01:07:10] into the ethos of your friends and your family and humanity and community and
[01:07:12] family and humanity and community and the
[01:07:15] Earth what what is that about for you
[01:07:18] Earth what what is that about for you what what drives you it it does not you
[01:07:21] what what drives you it it does not you know I am the same person I was I mean a
[01:07:28] know I am the same person I was I mean a derivative of the same person I was when
[01:07:30] derivative of the same person I was when I started as a young Professor right or
[01:07:33] I started as a young Professor right or as a graduate student doing the same
[01:07:35] as a graduate student doing the same thing this is merely an extension of
[01:07:41] thing this is merely an extension of my role in life right is to you know
[01:07:44] my role in life right is to you know I've always worked on end of fights my
[01:07:46] I've always worked on end of fights my entire career you know I've done some
[01:07:48] entire career you know I've done some fossil work but they were still microbes
[01:07:50] fossil work but they were still microbes in Plants right from early evolution of
[01:07:53] in Plants right from early evolution of life and on the planet but
[01:07:56] life and on the planet but uh this is merely an extension of what
[01:08:00] uh this is merely an extension of what I've been doing all along I can tell you
[01:08:03] I've been doing all along I can tell you that nobody notices my family and
[01:08:06] that nobody notices my family and friends they don't it's it's the same
[01:08:08] friends they don't it's it's the same right look in
[01:08:11] right look in science it's ho hum because it's just
[01:08:15] science it's ho hum because it's just another Discovery but but it so happens
[01:08:18] another Discovery but but it so happens that I think it's so important that I
[01:08:20] that I think it's so important that I keep talking about it because because I
[01:08:23] keep talking about it because because I do think that it's important important
[01:08:25] do think that it's important important for how we grow plants and for the
[01:08:28] for how we grow plants and for the sustainability of Agriculture and so
[01:08:30] sustainability of Agriculture and so forth uh so but it is it is you know I
[01:08:35] forth uh so but it is it is you know I mean this is a standard thing that a you
[01:08:39] mean this is a standard thing that a you know I do a lot more talking than most
[01:08:41] know I do a lot more talking than most professors but this is what we do and so
[01:08:45] professors but this is what we do and so uh you know as a university professor at
[01:08:48] uh you know as a university professor at ruter University this is my job right
[01:08:51] ruter University this is my job right this is my job and everybody around me
[01:08:53] this is my job and everybody around me knows that I'm the same person I was you
[01:08:55] knows that I'm the same person I was you know when I was a young Professor the
[01:08:57] know when I was a young Professor the same it's the same deal just now that I
[01:08:59] same it's the same deal just now that I I just talk a little bit more and a
[01:09:01] I just talk a little bit more and a little bit more excited about I was
[01:09:03] little bit more excited about I was excited Dan you know oh my gosh you know
[01:09:06] excited Dan you know oh my gosh you know I've had a wonderful life doing this you
[01:09:09] I've had a wonderful life doing this you know so and it is it is uh you know just
[01:09:13] know so and it is it is uh you know just just now I think I think I think we've
[01:09:16] just now I think I think I think we've hit on
[01:09:17] hit on something an area that is really
[01:09:20] something an area that is really important to for for everybody to
[01:09:25] important to for for everybody to understand that it's happening right
[01:09:27] understand that it's happening right it's happening yeah and why Endo fights
[01:09:30] it's happening yeah and why Endo fights what why did you decide to do Endo fight
[01:09:32] what why did you decide to do Endo fight the very beginning oh it's The Road Less
[01:09:35] the very beginning oh it's The Road Less Traveled right it's The Road Less
[01:09:36] Traveled right it's The Road Less Traveled right here's the here's the
[01:09:38] Traveled right here's the here's the thing when I was an undergraduate at
[01:09:41] thing when I was an undergraduate at Auburn University in Alabama right I had
[01:09:43] Auburn University in Alabama right I had a one of my one of my work study you
[01:09:47] a one of my one of my work study you know because my father was military we
[01:09:49] know because my father was military we been have a lot of money one of my work
[01:09:51] been have a lot of money one of my work study jobs was uh working uh with a a
[01:09:56] study jobs was uh working uh with a a scientist who was studying fungal a
[01:09:59] scientist who was studying fungal a fungal indify in forage in tall fescue
[01:10:03] fungal indify in forage in tall fescue because it was so important you know
[01:10:04] because it was so important you know cattle they do a lot of cattle out there
[01:10:06] cattle they do a lot of cattle out there and so so I started looking I worked
[01:10:10] and so so I started looking I worked with him and I started you know
[01:10:12] with him and I started you know screening grasses to find these indifit
[01:10:14] screening grasses to find these indifit using a microscope you know so and uh uh
[01:10:17] using a microscope you know so and uh uh just a undergraduate student a kid there
[01:10:20] just a undergraduate student a kid there sitting in the lab with a microscope
[01:10:22] sitting in the lab with a microscope looking at all this stuff and I came to
[01:10:26] looking at all this stuff and I came to realize that no one really is studying
[01:10:29] realize that no one really is studying this nobody really is studying this so
[01:10:33] this nobody really is studying this so when I went on to do my
[01:10:35] when I went on to do my PhD at the University of Texas I said
[01:10:39] PhD at the University of Texas I said okay I'm gonna extend this knowledge and
[01:10:42] okay I'm gonna extend this knowledge and I I started to then look at a lot of
[01:10:44] I I started to then look at a lot of different grasses for these fungal
[01:10:45] different grasses for these fungal indites and so that you know that first
[01:10:48] indites and so that you know that first paper that I did those first papers that
[01:10:50] paper that I did those first papers that I did as a graduate
[01:10:51] I did as a graduate student uh had a a you know really hard
[01:10:55] student uh had a a you know really hard to do that right had to ended up uh
[01:10:57] to do that right had to ended up uh going into debt to publish the article
[01:11:00] going into debt to publish the article on it and all that you know on our
[01:11:02] on it and all that you know on our family credit card and do field work and
[01:11:04] family credit card and do field work and all that but it paid off you know it was
[01:11:06] all that but it paid off you know it was an important article that paid off and
[01:11:09] an important article that paid off and so this whole fungal ight thing picked
[01:11:11] so this whole fungal ight thing picked up and the you know it was part of
[01:11:15] up and the you know it was part of creating all the interest and excitement
[01:11:18] creating all the interest and excitement around fungal indites right and then I
[01:11:20] around fungal indites right and then I then uh about 12 or 12 years or more ago
[01:11:26] then uh about 12 or 12 years or more ago I realized that uh fungal lyes they're
[01:11:30] I realized that uh fungal lyes they're there but there are many more bacterial
[01:11:32] there but there are many more bacterial lyes and we have to understand those so
[01:11:34] lyes and we have to understand those so we started working on these bacterial
[01:11:36] we started working on these bacterial lyes to figure figure that out all
[01:11:39] lyes to figure figure that out all plants have bacterial lyes only some
[01:11:41] plants have bacterial lyes only some plants will have fungal lyes too you
[01:11:44] plants will have fungal lyes too you know so we we wanted to then look at the
[01:11:46] know so we we wanted to then look at the bacterial lyes and and understand them
[01:11:49] bacterial lyes and and understand them so
[01:11:50] so basically basically that's how that's
[01:11:52] basically basically that's how that's how this developed and it just natural
[01:11:55] how this developed and it just natural but this is something that University
[01:11:57] but this is something that University professors do you know we that's why you
[01:12:00] professors do you know we that's why you that's why people keep us to do this
[01:12:04] that's why people keep us to do this right that's right I mean it's not it's
[01:12:06] right that's right I mean it's not it's not we appreciate you yeah well thank
[01:12:10] not we appreciate you yeah well thank you thank you thank you this is what we
[01:12:13] you thank you thank you this is what we do you know this is what we're supposed
[01:12:15] do you know this is what we're supposed to do this is why this is why you keep
[01:12:18] to do this is why this is why you keep us and everyone else keeps University
[01:12:20] us and everyone else keeps University professors that's the reason why you
[01:12:22] professors that's the reason why you keep a un have have a university because
[01:12:24] keep a un have have a university because you have these people who will do these
[01:12:26] you have these people who will do these crazy things you know and and develop
[01:12:29] crazy things you know and and develop some understandings that we don't
[01:12:30] some understandings that we don't already have yeah I hope is there
[01:12:33] already have yeah I hope is there anything we didn't talk about today that
[01:12:35] anything we didn't talk about today that was on your heart that was really
[01:12:37] was on your heart that was really important well we are I'm working with a
[01:12:40] important well we are I'm working with a a plant
[01:12:41] a plant breeder uh uh Walter Goldstein and he's
[01:12:45] breeder uh uh Walter Goldstein and he's he's got he's trying to trying to breed
[01:12:47] he's got he's trying to trying to breed corn actually that it has nitrogen
[01:12:49] corn actually that it has nitrogen fixing in the fights in it and so uh we
[01:12:53] fixing in the fights in it and so uh we are actually helping him to do that and
[01:12:55] are actually helping him to do that and there's some really cool stuff about
[01:12:57] there's some really cool stuff about those you know these land
[01:12:59] those you know these land races you know being seeing the microbes
[01:13:02] races you know being seeing the microbes in there and transferring them you know
[01:13:04] in there and transferring them you know so we're working to try to transfer them
[01:13:05] so we're working to try to transfer them into corn to try to develop lines of
[01:13:09] into corn to try to develop lines of corn that uh will fix their own nitrogen
[01:13:13] corn that uh will fix their own nitrogen uh but and how you have to develop how
[01:13:15] uh but and how you have to develop how you have to hand handle the seed you
[01:13:17] you have to hand handle the seed you know moving the microbes between the
[01:13:19] know moving the microbes between the lines of corn to get them you know
[01:13:21] lines of corn to get them you know because we've lost them in a lot of our
[01:13:24] because we've lost them in a lot of our our cultivars you know hybrids anything
[01:13:26] our cultivars you know hybrids anything tissue cultured you screw up the
[01:13:28] tissue cultured you screw up the microbes right away you know because
[01:13:30] microbes right away you know because that you us sterilize tissue to do
[01:13:31] that you us sterilize tissue to do tissue culture and uh those microbes get
[01:13:34] tissue culture and uh those microbes get lost so trying to replace those microbes
[01:13:38] lost so trying to replace those microbes back into our crops and this is a this
[01:13:41] back into our crops and this is a this is something I'm kind of excited about
[01:13:43] is something I'm kind of excited about that because that would be a direct way
[01:13:46] that because that would be a direct way that we could uh impact Agriculture and
[01:13:49] that we could uh impact Agriculture and not everybody can do it uh because you
[01:13:52] not everybody can do it uh because you know believe it takes some you know we
[01:13:54] know believe it takes some you know we use microscopy a lot of microscopy and
[01:13:57] use microscopy a lot of microscopy and hoch chemistry and very very few other
[01:13:59] hoch chemistry and very very few other people are doing that to to see these
[01:14:01] people are doing that to to see these microbes and to track the
[01:14:03] microbes and to track the microbes uh so um so I'm kind of excited
[01:14:07] microbes uh so um so I'm kind of excited about that maybe we can create some new
[01:14:09] about that maybe we can create some new cultivars that uh will be some corn and
[01:14:13] cultivars that uh will be some corn and corn is a big crop important crop that
[01:14:15] corn is a big crop important crop that people could grow wouldn't have to need
[01:14:17] people could grow wouldn't have to need any fertilizer on you know that would be
[01:14:19] any fertilizer on you know that would be the or at least no nitrogen fertilizer
[01:14:22] the or at least no nitrogen fertilizer yeah yeah that's I'm kind excited about
[01:14:26] yeah yeah that's I'm kind excited about that and just to clarify that's not
[01:14:27] that and just to clarify that's not genetically modified that's um just oh
[01:14:30] genetically modified that's um just oh no that's moving bacteria that's moving
[01:14:33] no that's moving bacteria that's moving bacteria between the plants so creating
[01:14:36] bacteria between the plants so creating I mean I say creating but we're re
[01:14:39] I mean I say creating but we're re recreating you know and standard
[01:14:42] recreating you know and standard breeding methods and then moving the
[01:14:44] breeding methods and then moving the bacteria from the land races you know
[01:14:47] bacteria from the land races you know that that are that are actually out of
[01:14:49] that that are that are actually out of places like Mexico and Peru Right Moving
[01:14:52] places like Mexico and Peru Right Moving those microbes and some of them you
[01:14:54] those microbes and some of them you can't even cultivate you know they may
[01:14:56] can't even cultivate you know they may be nonculturable so developing the
[01:14:58] be nonculturable so developing the techniques to move them into back into
[01:15:00] techniques to move them into back into our corn and then and then Walter would
[01:15:03] our corn and then and then Walter would have to do the uh Goldstein at The
[01:15:06] have to do the uh Goldstein at The mandam Institute you know where their
[01:15:08] mandam Institute you know where their breeding this corn they'd have to then
[01:15:10] breeding this corn they'd have to then make crosses to stabilize the microbi in
[01:15:13] make crosses to stabilize the microbi in and so forth and then develop the ways
[01:15:15] and so forth and then develop the ways to support that symbiosis right so that
[01:15:18] to support that symbiosis right so that you right it's really
[01:15:20] you right it's really exciting fascinating yeah yeah and
[01:15:24] exciting fascinating yeah yeah and nobody and nobody's doing it they don't
[01:15:26] nobody and nobody's doing it they don't know how they don't know how to do it
[01:15:28] know how they don't know how to do it but we we think we have our foot in the
[01:15:30] but we we think we have our foot in the door you know little toe right in the
[01:15:31] door you know little toe right in the door so uh we're trying to you're trying
[01:15:35] door so uh we're trying to you're trying to to do
[01:15:37] to to do that yeah well standing with you while
[01:15:39] that yeah well standing with you while you figure that
[01:15:41] you figure that out yeah thank you yeah well thank you
[01:15:44] out yeah thank you yeah well thank you so much James thank you for your time
[01:15:46] so much James thank you for your time and sharing just a small part of your
[01:15:49] and sharing just a small part of your story and what you've discovered which
[01:15:51] story and what you've discovered which is probably one of the most profound to
[01:15:53] is probably one of the most profound to date and I can't wait to
[01:15:55] date and I can't wait to see what you une Earth As you move
[01:15:58] see what you une Earth As you move forward you're so welcome Natalie it's
[01:16:00] forward you're so welcome Natalie it's my pleasure yeah thank you grateful you
[01:16:04] my pleasure yeah thank you grateful you joined us for that conversation and
[01:16:06] joined us for that conversation and interview if you haven't subscribed to
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSQh81snqas

Summary

TL;DR — Plants don't just absorb nutrients; they actively consume and process microbes, primarily bacteria and fungi, through a process called rhizophagy. This complex interaction, where plants cultivate and internalize microbes to extract essential nutrients, reveals a profound level of plant intelligence and offers a paradigm shift for agriculture away from chemical dependency towards biological solutions.

Key points

• Plants engage in rhizophagy, a process where they internalize soil microbes (bacteria and fungi) into their root cells.

• Inside the root cells, plants use reactive oxygen species (like superoxide) to break down the microbes, extracting nutrients such as nitrogen, phosphorus, and metals.

• This process is an active cultivation by plants, who strategically exude sugars to attract specific microbes and can alter exudate composition based on nutrient needs.

• Rhizophagy enhances plant resilience to stress (like drought, salinity, and disease) by upregulating the plant's own antioxidant systems.

• This biological approach to nutrient acquisition offers a sustainable alternative to chemical fertilizers, reducing environmental contamination and promoting healthier ecosystems.

• The discovery challenges the conventional understanding of plant nutrition, highlighting that plants possess innate intelligence to manage their nutrient uptake and defense mechanisms.

Takeaway — Understanding and supporting rhizophagy is crucial for developing a more sustainable and intelligent agricultural system that works in harmony with nature's biological processes.