# REGIONAL CONSULTATION ONPRISON OVERCROWDING 08 DEC SESSION 02

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUVbGgUOUkM

[00:05] I now uh invite you to the technical session one understanding prison overcrowding.
[00:09] First begins with a presentation by Madura Rago sir to moderate this session.
[00:13] Uh sir over to you.
[00:16] Okay thank you uh Nanika uh thank you for asking me to moderate this session.
[00:25] uh I think this is going to be a very very important session uh because all the speakers are people who have loads and loads of experience in this field.
[00:37] so uh basically this uh session the aim of the session is to identify reasons uh for prison overcrowding from a stakeholder perspective and also the responsibilities of various stakeholders.
[00:52] uh I've been given this uh three uh guidelines in terms of what the presentations should be focused around.
[01:00] We have three uh speakers uh after a presentation uh by Madurima.
[01:04] So Madurima
[01:08] will make the presentation first.
[01:10] Yes, I will be making the presentation.
[01:13] Okay.
[01:13] So after Madur Mima makes the presentation, uh there will be three presenters.
[01:18] Uh the Dr. Murli Karnnam from NALSR,
[01:23] Siccilia Davis from the Justice Initiative and
[01:27] Mr. Yasur Raj from the Prison Ministry uh of India Foundation.
[01:34] So these are the three speakers who will be speaking for today.
[01:36] Uh we have how much time do we have?
[01:40] 1 hour.
[01:41] Yeah, we have around an hour.
[01:44] 1 1 hour.
[01:44] So it's 2:50 now.
[01:44] So we are hoping to wind up by 3:50 around aroundish.
[01:50] Yes.
[01:51] 50ish.
[01:52] So which means that since we have four presentations uh we should try and limit it to around uh 10 to 12 minutes so that we have little time for participation.
[02:04] Yes, that should work.
[02:04] Yeah.
[02:04] And I won't take more than 10 minutes I'm sure.
[02:08] Yeah.
[02:08] Yeah.
[02:08] Fine.
[02:08] So we'll start with
[02:10] You Madurima.
[02:11] All right. Thank you Dr. Ragawan.
[02:13] Uh so as sir said uh we are uh we are starting the technical sessions.
[02:16] So of course in the morning we've talked about the problems the solutions etc but it was done in a more broadbrush manner.
[02:22] We've gen you know generally we've discussed.
[02:27] So now in the next three technical sessions we are going to do a bit more pinpointed conversation around um prison overcrowding the reasons the challenges and the uh solutions.
[02:38] So um I'm going to talk about in order to understand where the problems or the reasons for overcrowding I have some slides on some data uh which kind of link to a problem.
[02:49] So I'm just going to throw those out um for everybody.
[02:58] Okay. So first of all when we talk about prisons it's not about the admissions to prisons that's a problem.
[03:03] It starts very early on at the very first instance which is uh next please on arrests and
[03:14] this is a data which is very less talked about.
[03:16] it's the number of arrests that are translating into your detentions.
[03:21] right and if you see over the years now what you'll see here is from 2020 NCB started recording the CRPC arrests now.
[03:29] it is a little bit we not sure whether they're overlapping arrests with the SLL an IPC arrest or are they you know standalone arrests themselves but if you look at the 2022 data then collectively it means that nearly 1.4 4 K people were arrested and that's like 10% of the population 1% of India's population which is a huge number.
[03:54] Now this could be one of the problems is because you know the number of arrests is obviously also consistently been on the rise.
[04:00] So that's one issue is of course it is to do with the police uh if you're identifying the stakeholder on what eventually leads to prison overcrowding.
[04:09] Now another figure here to remember is so whereas this the crime in India indicates that there were 5.4 uh cr
[04:17] arrests only 18 lakh prisoners actually were admitted to prison.
[04:20] Now there could be a gap in the data we don't know but this this is a huge gap in terms of especially when we say you know bail is the rule uh you know jail is is exception and we say it's not followed but if you look at the data it's 1.4 cr and 18 lakhs.
[04:37] So this is uh uh has always been a question mark.
[04:40] Data is wrong.
[04:46] This is crime in India.
[04:53] I think no but uh the number of people uh admissions so admissions over a period of a year is 18 lakhs.
[05:02] Over a period of 1 year 18 lakh.
[05:04] Yeah.
[05:07] Yeah.
[05:07] 18 yeah 18 lakh prisoners are admitted to prison in a span of one year but at the crime in India says that nearly 1.4 24 k people were arrested.
[05:18] Now where did this entire chunk are they all on bail?
[05:20] Did they never get uh you know to the court?
[05:22] That is a uh thing which has not yet been around 60 people arrested ICC crime in India.
[05:37] So uh so earlier mi yes this is crime in India only.
[05:40] So earlier they never used to report the CRPC arrests.
[05:42] So if you include the CPC arrest so IPC and SLL offenses are 70 lakh but the CPC arrest if you also include and if there other then it the figure becomes 1.4 K which is the question mark we don't know.
[05:57] Yeah.
[05:58] Yes.
[05:58] So even otherwise if we remove CRPC also otherwise also it is 70 lakh arrests but 18 lakh admissions.
[06:07] So this gap we don't know uh what it means but I'm just flagging it out as something on police.
[06:17] Yeah.
[06:20] Yes.
[06:21] Yeah.
[06:21] The rest are on bail.
[06:21] Yes.
[06:21] Agreed.
[06:23] But uh the
[06:25] Yeah.
[06:25] Station bail.
[06:25] Yes.
[06:27] But station bail also is a concept misheard of in many states like people it's not something station bail police station bail doesn't really happen like it's always from the court only most of the places.
[06:37] Anyways this is one figure is of course looking at the arrest.
[06:40] This is where the problem starts.
[06:41] Of course, some may say the problem starts when crime is committed.
[06:45] But then this is where the problem starts is when the number of arrests are so high.
[06:48] Uh next please.
[06:52] No, no, it's fine.
[06:52] Uh the next is quotes again pendency.
[06:56] So if you this is the data from the India justice report on cases share of cases pending in subordinate court for over 5 years.
[07:03] So if you look at it you'll find that barring seven states all subordinate course in large and midsize states have at least 20%.
[07:11] Of one in every five cases pending for over five years in Bihar this is one out of two cases
[07:21] right so again pendency so now when we look at the quotes what's leading to overcrowding pendency here because this pendency results to higher uh percentage of people next I I just go back one second let me look at the specific states here so if you see you have um where are you all is uh 13.0 and 16.9.
[07:45] Uh, what does this mean?
[07:47] Oh, this is IGR4. So, Andhra Pradesh has uh 16.9 is it?
[07:52] This is 16.9. This is Andhra Pradesh. Yeah. Telangana is 17. Then we have Karnataka at 21. And this means uh what does this figure mean? Percentage is it?
[08:05] This is pendency pending cases in the court.
[08:10] Yes. So that means Telangana has 17% cases pending for over 5 years. Andra has 16.9, Karnataka is 21.1, Tamil Nadu again 21.6 and Kerala you have 23.6.
[08:24] Yeah.
[08:27] So this is uh your figures for your respective states.
[08:28] So pendency is of course also leading to prison overcrowding.
[08:30] Next.
[08:33] Now what does pendency mean?
[08:35] It means this under trials are spending more time in prison because of course bail is not liberal blah blah blah but the what the data has been indicating to us over the past uh so many years.
[08:45] So we looked at data from 2012 2017 and 2022 this is all prisons uh prison statistics India data.
[08:54] We realized that slowly what you see is whereas most of the people used to be most of the undertrial population used to be only detained up to a year but now you slowly see that the trend is shifting and there are more people uh so people are spending uh the share of under trials in detention for 3 to 5 years has almost doubled over the last 10 years.
[09:16] So that pendency is has resulted in this in this doubling of that 3 to 5 year period.
[09:21] So where are they in this 3 to five year?
[09:23] We are
[09:24] there in the prison which means adding to the overcrowding already we were overcrowded.
[09:28] this has also added in Telangana the 5.3% of undertrial population had spent between 1 to 3 years in prison detention which is quite high.
[09:38] and in 2023 nationally 22% or nearly 1 in four under trials was spending at least 1 to 3 years.
[09:43] So that entire one year you have to keep him in the prison right so that is adding to the overcrowding.
[09:49] Uh next please.
[09:54] Now the next thing um that is there is the prison budgets and utilization right.
[09:59] So budgets in a sense that of course what happens when you have more people.
[10:03] Uh can you go back to the first slide please?
[10:05] Uh back back.
[10:12] Yes.
[10:12] So this data uh Nyaneka has shared which tells you the gap between capacity and the prisoners right and what impacts this is the budget.
[10:20] So we we see that there is a gap and we saw the prediction
[10:24] also that right now there is a gap of nearly 1.4 lakh spaces um and then the predictions say there's going to be a gap of nearly two lakh spaces in the next uh coming years.
[10:33] Now this gap what reflects uh can you go to that screen the next one?
[10:38] So what's important here is the budget.
[10:41] So if there are budgets to boost capacity so boosting infrastructure, boosting capacity.
[10:45] So we look we look at prison budgets and utilization as well.
[10:49] Now what we find here uh in the budgets is of course spend per inmates but we also have prison budgets utilized and uh if you look at these figures you have uh Andhra Pradesh stands at 84.9% of budget utilized.
[11:08] That means you did did have the budget to make some infrastructural improvement could have been done.
[11:11] Karnataka is at 91.4.
[11:15] Kerala is sorry Kataka is 98.2.
[11:18] Kerala is 91.4.
[11:18] Now Karnataka at 98.2 has actually done a lot of work on on infrastructure as during the period that this is reported
[11:26] that time a lot of boost was there.
[11:28] So they have been utilizing Tamil Nadu is at 100%, overcrowding is pretty less in Tamil Nadu.
[11:34] So you can see there is a link there is a link between your budgets your utilization and how you are tackling the problem of overcrowding and then you have Telangana is at 89.6.
[11:44] So what this these figures mean there is always un unspent budgets.
[11:49] So when you say oh we don't have money to build a jail that may not be true.
[11:53] It actually is there it has to be rationalized how the budgets are being spent.
[11:58] Uh next please.
[12:01] Next.
[12:03] Now the next thing is release of prisoners.
[12:07] So when we look at the releases on premature release or we look at uh parles.
[12:09] So parole is come back to the jail.
[12:11] So I wouldn't call it uh too much of an involvement.
[12:14] But yes at some time for instance parole was a very important thing during covid.
[12:18] So when you were looking at reducing populations in covid parole was a solution.
[12:22] So why not in a more longer basis right?
[12:25] Why
[12:28] not look at these releases as a solution to ensuring that people are not living in overcrowded spaces?
[12:32] So, uh if you look at that data again, you will see that premature release.
[12:36] Now, the the figures in red are the national figures.
[12:38] So, only 4,000 prisoners out of nearly two lakh prisoners who are convicts are being released on premature release, which is a very minor number.
[12:48] Parole again uh they were 25,000 pardons were 114 transfer to other states is 1237 now transfers to other states it's a very state level policy uh could be done for varied reasons can also be done when there are multiple cases and all as a policy to transfer within states for overcrowding hasn't really been developed or evolved as much but again I I kept that data because that data is there now if you look at the numbers from the your states as well you will find that Andhra Pradesh 31 premature release.
[13:21] Karnataka is still better at 349.
[13:23] But still it's a very small part of the population who gets premature release.
[13:25] You have Kerala at 21.
[13:27] You have
[13:29] Tamil Nadu 230. And you have Telangana is at only three.
[13:32] Now I don't know.
[13:35] Did you tell the Telangana people to join here?
[13:40] Okay.
[13:43] Yeah. So uh B will note that the data says that only three people were released on prematurity in the entire state.
[13:45] Then again parole figures are still better.
[13:48] Pardons seem to be only there in Andhra Pradesh uh at 31 and then transfers are also Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.
[13:51] So release of prisoners seems to be one area which um uh can be looked at more closely.
[14:03] Uh next please.
[14:05] And then we have legal aid to prisoners which we all talked about um as much as uh we could.
[14:11] However, what we need to understand about legal aids and its role is also that the demand for legal aid in prisons is relatively low.
[14:18] So, data has time and again showed like for instance uh NALSA's data uh on prison legal aid clinics between July to October uh 2024.
[14:29] is indicating that only 8.5% of prisoners were availing legal aid.
[14:35] So, they were so it could be because of lack of legal services also.
[14:40] But then still at the same time it's not that 90% of prisoners are wearing legal aid and then when legal aid doesn't function overcrowding exists.
[14:45] So legal aid has a role but it has a limited role when it comes to uh reducing prison overcrowding in this sense as a UTRC process.
[14:52] Yes.
[14:54] But the UTRC process also is limited to only those people who are in fall into under those now those 16 categories that are there.
[15:03] Uh again this is the data uh from the report that NALSA did on prison legal aid clinics and as per that the total uh applications forwarded to LSIs were 32,000 uh again here of five nearly six lakh prisoners only 32,000 and lawyers were appointed in 29,000 cases.
[15:21] Next
[15:23] so that brings us down now to the discussion points uh what we want all of us to understand the primary drivers of
[15:29] prison overcrowding.
[15:31] So we spoke about arrest, we spoke about case pendencies,
[15:35] we spoke about prison budgets and lack of uh capacity uh uh boosting and we looked at uh the duration of uh stay for an undertrial prisoner.
[15:46] We looked at the lack of legal aid services for a certain part of them and we will now discuss uh through our discussions we would discuss what other uh drivers are there what stakeholders influence where and then identify where is the role of the prison administrator so if it is leazing with the legal services then what roles could you play if it's leazing with say on parole or premature release with the uh the SRBs uh what uh can be done there so on that note I hand it over to you Dr. Ragavan to moderate the rest of the discussion.
[16:16] Thank you.
[16:18] It gives them a kind of a sense of direction in terms of how to take the discussion forward.
[16:22] So I now request uh Dr. Murli Karna to speak.
[16:28] Uh no hardened criminals.
[16:28] So prison
[16:31] officers have a lot of especially one.
[16:34] more thing I tell you.
[16:36] come into the prison only on your uh no permission.
[16:40] Therefore you have every right to ask.
[16:45] this is the date of arrest this is the date of giving a case to you.
[16:47] when are you producing bail you have to tell.
[16:50] once you get the bail you can't keep quiet.
[16:52] you have to inform to the prison officer.
[16:54] prison officer should demand but prison officers are not asking.
[16:56] we we don't want to take panga with lcs.
[17:05] now we are telling this to state legal service authority also.
[17:07] they your employees they have a duty to inform.
[17:09] private advocates may not be you know demanding it.
[17:11] Actually judiciary has to send the all the orders but prison officers can ask ls can ask.
[17:13] This will definitely marginally increase the chances of prisoners getting out.
[17:25] Let us not encourage especially jail because jail is a
[17:34] solution which is retrospectively actually recriminalizing the prisoners which is a wrong thing.
[17:41] So that will have a spiraling effect in the long long run and they will come back again to the prison.
[17:48] So we have to avoid.
[17:48] So now if we don't find solutions is okay.
[17:53] But if we are creating more troubles, if we are trying to see that they come back again.
[17:57] So only one solution that you know one uh uh big solution I can tell you prison officers is please open up the the personal liberty or accountability dies in the darkness.
[18:13] if you have nothing to hide I think chances of a lot of people getting released and making everybody accountable is more but it is always seen as know it's only you know offense and draconian therefore we have to close it that is not going to work at all.
[18:33] Thank you. Thank you Dr. Mli. uh I think
[18:36] you've raised some very very basic issues rather than you know uh just touch the surface and the main issue that you have raised is the issue of injustice and unless we feel that there is injustice happening I think uh we will not be able to take uh steps to you know remedy that situation uh and I think you have also highlighted the role that prison officers can play in uh you know in trying to kind of create a disturbance uh in the equ you know in a situation which looks like an equilibrium where everybody is doing what they're supposed to be doing uh but nothing seems to be changing and so the disruption has to happen.
[19:19] somebody has to play the role of the disruptor and uh possibly he's asking prison officers to play that role by you know some coming up with some very innovative ideas you know in terms of for example when you find a young boy in or a young girl in prison and you feel that she he or she's below 18 what
[19:39] steps can you take uh to make sure that this person is immediately produced before uh JJB juvenile justice.
[19:47] just one point.
[19:49] Last point about this premature release that was discussed earlier.
[19:55] Yes.
[19:57] When conviction and impre imprisonment is continuous process, why premature release is not a continuous process?
[20:07] No.
[20:08] Right.
[20:10] Sir, just let me complete.
[20:13] Prison manual says 3 months before somebody is eligible for consideration for premature release the district level advisory board has to meet and it is the social worker probation officer who has to give the report whether there is any change.
[20:29] Prisoner officer has a lot of role in saying I have seen this boy or guy guy for 10 15 years he has changed.
[20:35] Therefore, he is
[20:42] eligible for release.
[20:45] One second. Now, this is happening once
[20:48] in 3 years, not in 3 months. On 26th,
[20:52] 26th January, 15th, no August. This
[20:58] entire thing is decided at the level of
[21:00] state level committee, principal
[21:02] secretary,
[21:04] law secretary who has nothing to do with
[21:06] the entire personal knowledge. Prison
[21:08] officer is the right person to decide
[21:10] that power prison department has to
[21:12] assert that is not happening at all. Now
[21:17] 25 years back prisoners
[21:21] involved in five kinds of offenses were
[21:23] only exempted from premature release.
[21:26] Now 29 offenses
[21:29] which means more and more offenses are
[21:33] included for excluding the prisoners
[21:36] from becoming eligible for release. This
[21:39] is one of the reasons even convicts
[21:42] numbers are growing. If you go to north
[21:45] India you will see especially convict
[21:48] prisons they all look like old age
[21:50] homes.
[21:51] >> Yes correct especially Uttar Pradesh.
[21:54] >> Thank you.
[21:56] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. We'll ask
[21:59] now uh Siccilia to uh be the next
[22:03] speaker. Cecilia Davis.
[22:09] Since we're talking so much about uh you
[22:12] know a very strongly databased report
[22:16] I'll start first start with that in
[22:18] terms of uh you know like Moody was
[22:20] saying you know so far till the India
[22:23] justice report came into the picture at
[22:24] least we've come I think reasonably a
[22:28] long way in terms of how we are looking
[22:29] at inter and interpreting data but if we
[22:31] look at the NCB report uh it is one of
[22:35] the most flawed statistical reports
[22:38] surprisingly ly issued by the government
[22:40] of the country because uh I'll just give
[22:43] a very small example. I'm not going to
[22:45] get into details of it but also why that
[22:48] data becomes very important is because
[22:50] behind every number that we see on that
[22:52] data is the life is a name and the life
[22:56] of a person of a human being and it's
[22:59] very sad to see the way um the the those
[23:03] numbers are represented in in the NCB
[23:05] data when we come to the education
[23:07] profile of prisoners it says uh primary
[23:10] middle school high school but if we
[23:13] actually talk to prisoners know somebody
[23:14] would say I went to school up to first
[23:18] standard but NCB data says they've
[23:21] completed primary level but they don't
[23:23] know how to write even a single alphabet
[23:26] right so the misrepresentation of data
[23:29] or skewed data which is not based on
[23:33] realities in the field yeah and where
[23:36] that leads us in terms of overcrowding
[23:38] is every year when the NCB releases data
[23:42] the one and Only thing that comes into
[23:44] the picture is overcrowding. Yes. And
[23:47] again the onus comes back to the prisons
[23:50] department. Overcrowding.
[23:52] It's not the prisons per se who are
[23:54] responsible. The first onus of
[23:56] responsibility like Muri said begins
[23:58] with the police and then goes to the
[24:01] judiciary. The prisons become the
[24:03] receiving. They are at the receiving end
[24:05] of what goes wrong at the police
[24:07] station. What goes wrong at the
[24:09] judiciary. Yeah. The second thing is
[24:13] lack of accountability from the
[24:15] judiciary. In our country, the judiciary
[24:17] is one of the least accountable
[24:20] systems. Yeah, we've been sitting and
[24:23] talking about, you know, bail, how many
[24:24] people have gotten bail, uh how many are
[24:27] not able to furnish shity, but there's a
[24:29] very important missing link between
[24:31] both. When a bail application is
[24:33] presented in court and the public
[24:36] prosecutor has to raise an objection,
[24:39] it's a very open secret that until and
[24:42] unless the public prosecutor is paid,
[24:44] he's not going to raise objections. And
[24:47] the judge does not raise any concerns
[24:49] about the fact that the public
[24:51] prosecutor is not raising objections and
[24:54] allowing for that bail application to
[24:57] move forward for arguments.
[25:00] Yeah. And um in terms of accountability
[25:04] from lawyers, I understand we have the
[25:06] bar association, we have all the other
[25:08] mechanisms in place, but definitely it's
[25:11] not an accountability system that can be
[25:15] activated by the clients themselves
[25:18] which leaves a judiciary absolutely
[25:20] unaccountable at multiple levels and the
[25:22] repercussions are felt at prison because
[25:25] with the with the delay in I mean
[25:27] prisoners don't understand what what the
[25:30] process of the judiciary is and what are
[25:32] the actual realities. Yes, according to
[25:35] the BNSS and all of that, we can say
[25:37] yes, these are the procedures, these are
[25:38] the laws, but the reality that you know
[25:41] your bail application is not moving
[25:42] forward because the PP is not raising
[25:44] objections, right? Or your lawyer is not
[25:46] being present in the court on the day
[25:49] that the application has to be argued.
[25:51] None of it is a reality for the
[25:54] prisoners and they are not in a position
[25:56] to do anything about it. The third
[26:00] is um lack of professional
[26:02] interventions. Yes, we do not have an
[26:06] adequate support system either in the
[26:08] prison or in the entire criminal justice
[26:11] system that can support e any accused or
[26:14] even a convict prisoner with the kind of
[26:17] lening that is needed with families with
[26:20] any other form of support system. Say
[26:23] for example um there is a prisoner who
[26:26] is from out of the state. Until and
[26:29] unless the prison department uh puts a
[26:32] mechanism in place and gets it going to
[26:34] say okay he's from out of the state the
[26:36] judiciary does not take the
[26:38] responsibility to explore options even
[26:41] in terms of getting bail when they are
[26:43] not from from that particular state they
[26:45] are doicile they are from some other
[26:47] state to have a social worker who can do
[26:50] the ground work contact the family get
[26:52] the relevant shity or say that they are
[26:55] unable to get the shity release him on
[26:57] PR are bond we do not have professional
[26:59] support interventions which only adds to
[27:02] the burden within the prison. Um and
[27:06] most importantly what we also lack in
[27:09] our country again which has a direct
[27:11] repercussion on the prison is the lack
[27:13] of a policy for reform and
[27:15] rehabilitation.
[27:17] Right? Technically I do have an issue
[27:19] with the pro with this entire idea of
[27:21] reform. But let's just say whether it is
[27:23] for undertrials or for convicts just to
[27:27] be able to have a consistent
[27:29] rehabilitation policy that will come
[27:31] into effect not when a prisoner gets
[27:33] released. That is not the time to
[27:35] prepare for rehabilitation.
[27:37] Rehabilitation needs to begin from the
[27:40] moment he steps into the prison or even
[27:42] before right when he comes in conflict
[27:44] with the law. That is something that we
[27:45] find missing which only keeps adding to
[27:48] the number of people inside. And um of
[27:51] course most importantly I think as the
[27:54] criminal justice system in our country
[27:56] we lack a vision for the kind of um
[28:00] future we want to be able to have with
[28:03] people who come in conflict with the
[28:05] law. Be it juveniles be it adults. We
[28:08] absolutely lack a solid vision that we
[28:11] can say that okay this is not the kind
[28:14] of alternative we want to have. Prisons
[28:16] are not the one-stop solution. Whether
[28:19] it is domestic issues, whether it is
[28:21] maintenance issues, deaddiction,
[28:24] somebody's caught in a drug offense,
[28:26] prisons are like a one-stop solution.
[28:28] The the there's some magic that people
[28:30] expect to happen. the people come into
[28:32] the prison, they should go out and they
[28:34] should be perfectly fine with no support
[28:36] systems available internally to work
[28:39] towards any form of um rehabilitation,
[28:43] any form of deaddiction or any other
[28:46] long-term solutions because of I mean
[28:50] coming in conflict with the law by
[28:51] itself is such a complex issue but then
[28:54] to say okay they get into the prison
[28:56] they should come out perfect I think
[28:58] that's a very unrealistic expectation
[29:01] But um I think where we also lack is um
[29:06] support in terms of public opinion. Uh
[29:09] and with the existing media narratives
[29:12] that we have even before people come
[29:15] into the prison they are a lost case and
[29:18] unfortunately we still haven't reached a
[29:20] point where we are able to direct public
[29:24] opinion in a way where we they would
[29:26] rethink what the media is talking about.
[29:29] Right? Right? We we talk about
[29:30] overcrowding but we are unable to even
[29:33] as civil society we are unable to be
[29:36] able to build a different narratives. We
[29:38] are unable to tell the stories that go
[29:41] behind these numbers because unless
[29:43] these numbers translate into human
[29:46] stories which I think um is something
[29:49] that is missing in the IGR report.
[29:51] Excellent data but how does a data
[29:54] affect who you are talking about? What
[29:56] do those numbers mean in terms of the
[29:59] lives that you know that are involved
[30:02] there? Because they just they're not
[30:03] just numbers. They are lives of people
[30:05] multiplied by their families,
[30:08] communities, the society at large.
[30:10] Unless we are able to build a different
[30:12] public opinion. I don't think we will be
[30:15] able to push for the kind of policy for
[30:18] the kind of advocacy and change that we
[30:20] want to be able to see in the prison. So
[30:23] yes in terms of premature release I just
[30:25] have a clarification to make sir to what
[30:27] Moody said. So premature release uh
[30:31] becomes a state discretion in the sense
[30:34] every state has its own policy and yes
[30:38] Karnataka has been very high on numbers
[30:40] but that's only one side of the story. I
[30:43] know for a fact because this is an issue
[30:44] that I have been personally involved
[30:46] with for a very long time in Karnataka
[30:48] and the challenge is clearances come
[30:51] from the department repeatedly. prison
[30:54] officers have been saying please release
[30:56] this person but the kind of process we
[30:59] have is so cumbersome in Karnataka that
[31:02] the list will ultimately go to the
[31:04] governor but come rejected from uh from
[31:07] the governor's office and or the
[31:09] governor will ask for clarifications
[31:11] which means that person is left out of
[31:13] that final list and has to wait for the
[31:16] next list to come before that
[31:18] clarification can be done and it can be
[31:20] processed so now the high court of
[31:23] Karnataka of has taken cognizance and
[31:25] they are working on it but otherwise it
[31:28] becomes very it's not a it's not an
[31:30] automatically regulated process across
[31:32] states I think some states like
[31:34] Maharashtra do have it but it's not
[31:36] common in in all the states yeah
[31:41] >> thank you thank you Sicilia for uh you
[31:44] know sticking to your time limit and as
[31:46] a just like Muri has you also have
[31:49] raised some very very important issues
[31:51] uh particularly the issue of how what
[31:54] kind of data should be uh we should be
[31:57] having at our disposal and the data
[31:59] which is not only quantitative but also
[32:01] qualitative. the lack of professional
[32:04] social work or other kinds of
[32:06] interventions which are required if we
[32:08] want to create a better prison system
[32:11] and how the judiciary is also one of the
[32:13] pillars which is not accountable in the
[32:17] same way as the other wings of the
[32:18] criminal justice just justice system are
[32:20] made to uh at least seem accountable and
[32:23] also the issue of alternatives to
[32:25] incarceration. what are the ways that we
[32:28] can do? I just remembered uh a very very
[32:32] uh uh interesting and uh convincing
[32:35] argument that I read somewhere from a
[32:39] academic from America from the Arizona
[32:42] State University someone called uh Kevin
[32:45] Wright who has come up with this idea
[32:48] called better than arrival corrections.
[32:51] It's a very simple uh term which means
[32:55] uh he's saying that any person who
[32:57] enters the prison system when the person
[33:00] is going out his or her situation should
[33:03] be better than what it was when he
[33:05] entered. Physical health mental uh
[33:09] mentally livelihood whatever it may be
[33:11] it is the job of the corrections
[33:13] department to make sure that when he or
[33:15] she leaves the prison system he is a
[33:18] better person what he was when he
[33:20] entered. I think this is really captures
[33:23] uh what kind of correctional system we
[33:25] want you know better than arrival
[33:26] corrections. I thought it was really an
[33:28] interesting way to put it. Uh I now uh
[33:31] request Mr. Yasu Raja to please uh
[33:36] speak. Thank you.
[33:40] >> Hello.
[33:42] So actually thanks a lot.
[33:45] Really the prison department first
[33:48] priority is security because that is
[33:51] what they need because uh for them the
[33:54] reformation regitation and all all
[33:56] things are second because for them they
[33:59] want the priority is security morning
[34:02] they they are getting out,400 prisoner
[34:06] evening they must be,400 suppose if one
[34:09] is not there two is not there then their
[34:12] job will be go that is So always I have
[34:15] seen last 32 years. This is what because
[34:18] for them that is more important that is
[34:20] count is more important. If I am saying
[34:23] wrong please tell me this is more
[34:26] important because for them that is more
[34:27] important. We people are going and one
[34:30] day going and spending few time it is
[34:32] not there for them because morning so
[34:34] many people are there evening because
[34:36] that is the custodian of them because
[34:38] they have not put them the prisoners
[34:41] because the government that is court has
[34:43] directed them to keep they are only the
[34:45] custodians they can see this is a person
[34:48] so many people are there evening this is
[34:50] what that's first thing second thing
[34:53] actually out of the total prison
[34:56] population according to Tamil Nad I'm
[34:59] saying suppose in Tamil Nad there is not
[35:01] over population one or two places 24,000
[35:04] is accommodation 21,000 or 22,000 only
[35:08] the present out of these 6,000 only
[35:12] convict 6,000 people are only convict
[35:16] next says only under trials we keep
[35:19] under trials and remain prisons so under
[35:22] trials we have 4,000
[35:25] but there are remain prisoners 12,000
[35:28] prisoners according to my understanding
[35:31] I'm not a law graduate as so according
[35:33] to my understanding that's remain
[35:35] prisoners remain prisoners are just put
[35:38] them in the prison due to security
[35:41] reasons or anything that is what I
[35:43] understand because trial prisoners means
[35:45] they are already filed the case court
[35:47] case is going on that is what trial
[35:49] prisoners but these remand prisoners
[35:52] that FR is not filed or anything that is
[35:55] a different case these people Suppose if
[35:58] a prime minister is coming or some cycle
[36:00] immediately they will put 500 people
[36:03] inside the prison the number will be
[36:05] increasing after 2 weeks or 3 weeks they
[36:08] will be going away sending them away.
[36:10] What is the reason? Three weeks who they
[36:11] are in the prison. So whose
[36:14] responsibility is there? The so remand
[36:16] prisoners are 12,000 prisoners. That is
[36:18] why I always say to my volunteers,
[36:21] please concentrate on the remand
[36:22] prisoners because they will be going and
[36:24] learning from the other people and
[36:26] getting to do the crime in a way which
[36:31] is not achieved by them. So this is a
[36:33] remand prisoners or more. So we have to
[36:36] concentrate as a department what we can
[36:38] do because why we are putting them in
[36:40] the prison they have done nothing after
[36:43] one week see I have seen the women
[36:45] prisoner for 2 three years in the prison
[36:47] because the people are there they will
[36:49] be for me because 2 years there's no
[36:52] case he doesn't know when where why he
[36:54] is in the prison because he is
[36:56] illiterate he doesn't know why he is in
[36:58] the prison so like that so next thing is
[37:01] this actually the prisoners this NGO
[37:05] popular because he doesn't know that
[37:07] they are these as I told you prison
[37:09] officials cannot meet the prisoner
[37:12] families so only as a NGO or any NGO we
[37:16] go to the prison families their families
[37:19] and meet them because they will not
[37:21] accept also I remember that he is one of
[37:24] the principal he was waiting in the
[37:27] front of the gate because the family
[37:29] does not accept them in the school that
[37:32] principal that ministers are waiting for
[37:35] the to meet the principal but this
[37:37] principal is going and waiting for the
[37:39] in front of the gate of the prisoner I
[37:41] know I went with them so but they not
[37:43] accepting after few times he accepted
[37:46] and bring them to the family so because
[37:48] of that only then only they can come and
[37:50] take them out they can we can make them
[37:53] understand that reunion with the family
[37:56] that is what otherwise that will not be
[37:58] happen what happen is many a times that
[38:00] this fellow who is with them they will
[38:03] arrange with the lawyer they will go
[38:05] with with the gundas and doing this is
[38:07] what happening so many times when we are
[38:09] saying
[38:11] he will take the bail why he is taking
[38:13] the bail he wanted to take advantage of
[38:15] that b that is what he putting in the so
[38:18] many times because that man is taking
[38:20] advantage of that man the same thing is
[38:22] happening for the ladies I have seen
[38:24] that so many adates are the taking
[38:26] paying one lakh rupee for that and
[38:28] taking one lakh rupee he is paying for
[38:30] that lady means how much money you must
[38:32] have taken from that
[38:33] Who is responsible for that? Because
[38:35] that directly if the if the family
[38:38] members father or mother, wife or
[38:40] children if he is coming he will not do
[38:42] that. Maybe because of the money. So as
[38:45] government is saying that we are having
[38:47] money but we can send we we must bring
[38:50] the family only bring the family then
[38:52] that we can do something. Last but not
[38:55] actually as it is said many when they
[38:59] are arrested itself arrested in the
[39:02] police station itself many will get bail
[39:05] or if they go court they will get the
[39:08] bail but who is in the prison 90% more
[39:12] than 90% are the poor and innocent they
[39:14] do not know how to write you know that
[39:17] they put the that uh
[39:21] thumb impression doing that how because
[39:24] they do not know why they are there. So
[39:27] only poor people are there and without
[39:30] getting bail and other things. This is
[39:31] what I would like to s
[39:36] Thank you sir. Thank you uh so much for
[39:38] your uh comments and you have really
[39:41] focused on uh the profile the background
[39:44] of people who end up in prison and what
[39:46] happens to them, how they get uh you
[39:48] know slowly criminalized by habitual and
[39:52] gang elements and how there is a
[39:55] difficulty in terms of family acceptance
[39:58] and the uh you know vested interests
[40:01] pushing them in the path of crime. Uh
[40:03] this is these are some very important
[40:05] issues. Uh if uh the house is now open
[40:10] for any uh questions or even uh your own
[40:16] comments or suggestions with regard to
[40:19] uh what the topic of today's uh
[40:21] technical session one was about which is
[40:23] looking at what are the reasons why
[40:25] there is overcrowding in prison and what
[40:27] are the responses how do we find a
[40:30] solution uh to these problems. So if
[40:32] anybody wants to uh say something uh the
[40:36] mic can go around.
[40:37] >> Good afternoon sir. Uh sir uh as sir
[40:41] said Mr. Misa said uh many prisoners are
[40:45] uh
[40:47] incarcerated prisoners are there more
[40:49] than 3 to 5 years. Uh other cases only
[40:52] one percentages are there.
[40:57] >> Okay.
[40:59] commercial because those who comes under
[41:03] folks so
[41:06] not much like NDPS cases uh commercial
[41:09] quantity NDPS process they don't get
[41:11] bailed uh earlier okay so they has to be
[41:16] under incarceration for more years
[41:20] >> right
[41:25] >> okay anybody else would like to say
[41:47] Maduruma. Should I wind up?
[41:58] U maybe a little bit uh Dr. Raun if you
[42:01] can only identify uh in terms of we've
[42:04] looked at the different stakeholders but
[42:07] for every stakeholder where would the
[42:09] prison administrator come in that would
[42:11] wrap up the session properly.
[42:13] >> Okay. So uh you know for me the crucial
[42:17] point is the absence of uh effective
[42:21] interdep departmental coordination
[42:23] forums. Uh I think that is at the root
[42:26] of uh the fact that the systems are all
[42:29] working in their own independent silos
[42:32] and uh mostly the co coordination is
[42:34] happening through paperwork. So for
[42:37] example, if I uh as a prison officer or
[42:40] superintendent uh want police escorts,
[42:43] all I can do is write to the police and
[42:46] ask for the number of escorts that are
[42:48] required on the next date or the you
[42:51] know particular dates and how many
[42:52] prisoners. But if they don't provide
[42:54] those numbers, I have no mechanism to go
[42:57] back and talk about it. Similarly, if we
[43:00] are talking about the fact that video
[43:03] conferencing facilities are available
[43:05] but magistrates are sometimes not coming
[43:07] for those video conferencing sessions, I
[43:10] have no forum to go and talk about it.
[43:12] Uh so myriad number of issues the
[43:15] question of premature release uh with
[43:18] the fact that superintendents are
[43:20] recommending cases but they don't get uh
[43:22] you know finally decided at the uh
[43:25] higher levels that's again another
[43:27] issue. So uh I have uh a suggestion
[43:31] which we have tried out in Maharashtra
[43:33] and it has shown partial results. I
[43:36] won't say it has been very successful is
[43:38] that uh through a Bombay high court PIL
[43:42] uh uh two forums were created. One is
[43:45] called the state interdep departmental
[43:47] committee on prisoners. This committee
[43:49] is chaired by the secretary law and
[43:52] judiciary and it has its members. The
[43:55] home se uh prisons is the secretary
[43:58] prisons home department is the member
[44:00] secretary and the other members include
[44:02] the member secretary of DLSA SLSA sorry
[44:05] uh the department of women and child
[44:07] development department of health and uh
[44:10] also police and uh Prias is one of the
[44:13] members of this committee. Now it is
[44:16] very difficult to organize these
[44:18] meetings but we are successful in
[44:20] organizing at least one meeting a year
[44:22] when all these top secretary level
[44:24] officers are present. If they are not
[44:26] there then their immediate junior joint
[44:29] secretary or deputy secretary is present
[44:32] and in these meetings number of issues
[44:34] are discussed and certain policy level
[44:36] decisions are taken. So it's like a
[44:39] forum where things can go uh up to the
[44:41] highest level and some immediate
[44:44] decisions uh can get taken which are
[44:46] again need to be uh followed up. Uh
[44:49] similarly at the district level there is
[44:52] something called a district interdep
[44:53] departmental subcommittee on prisoners.
[44:56] This subcommittee is chaired by the
[44:57] principal district judge and the members
[45:00] include the secretary DLSA SP nominee of
[45:03] the SP, the district women and child
[45:06] development officer, the civil surgeon
[45:08] and the pro district probation officer
[45:10] and one recognized NGO which is working
[45:13] in prisons in that particular district.
[45:15] Now here also the experience has been
[45:17] that they are supposed to meet once in 3
[45:19] months every quarter and this forum has
[45:22] actually helped in people coming
[45:25] together and discussing issues and
[45:27] problems face to face where you know if
[45:30] there is a problem that is being faced
[45:32] for example the post of doctors are not
[45:35] being filled up they can at least bring
[45:36] it up before that committee and that
[45:38] committee in turn can recommend to the
[45:40] state level committee that this is a
[45:42] problem that needs to be looked into.
[45:44] the issue of police escort when the SP
[45:47] is also present and the district judge
[45:49] is there then the prison officer can say
[45:51] that this is the data regarding the last
[45:53] three months where escorts have not been
[45:56] provided and the district judge talks to
[45:58] the SP and that has an impact so it is
[46:00] like an interdep departmental regular
[46:02] forum where people are coming together
[46:05] they're discussing things creating some
[46:07] kind of uh I would say trust with each
[46:10] other that problems can be solved
[46:12] because generally I find that in the
[46:14] criminal justice system there is a there
[46:17] is too much of cynicism and lack of
[46:20] trust on each other and all of them have
[46:22] their own uh problems. Nobody is free of
[46:26] problems. If you talk to each of them
[46:27] independently today we are talking to
[46:29] prison officers and we are getting a
[46:31] certain picture. Tomorrow if we have a
[46:33] meeting of all the legal aid authorities
[46:36] we'll get a different picture. The
[46:38] problem I think is one of not coming
[46:40] together and discussing in a uh forum. I
[46:43] mean that's one of the problems that we
[46:45] are talking about. Of course there are
[46:47] very basic issues and problems which
[46:49] people like uh Dr. Burli and Siccilia
[46:52] have pointed out. Uh but the question is
[46:54] how do we move forward and this is one
[46:57] suggestion from my side. If in your at
[47:00] your state level you could discuss this
[47:02] with your prison heads of department and
[47:04] they in turn could kind of move
[47:06] something like this both at the district
[47:09] and the state level. I think it would
[47:11] have some impact in terms of decision
[47:14] making when it comes to uh problems
[47:16] faced in the criminal justice system. I
[47:18] think with that uh I have nothing more
[47:20] to add in particular uh from the three
[47:24] presentations that we had. I think what
[47:27] I take away uh is one is the role of the
[47:30] prison officer which Dr. Murli Kurnam
[47:33] has rightfully highlighted that how a
[47:35] good prison officer or a person a prison
[47:38] officer is committed can make a
[47:39] difference to the situation of
[47:41] prisoners. the issue of uh absence of
[47:44] professionally trained staff and how
[47:46] that is really important when we are
[47:48] talking about uh bringing in some kind
[47:51] of reforms in the system and also the
[47:54] ability to produce and maintain good
[47:56] data uh is another issue that came out
[47:59] from Ciccilia's presentation and Mr.
[48:01] Yesuraja talked about you know issues of
[48:04] uh how the priorities of the prison
[48:07] department lie somewhere else and
[48:09] whereas the requirements when if we are
[48:11] talking about creating a more humane
[48:13] justice system uh they lie somewhere
[48:15] else. So these are some of the points
[48:17] that came up. Thank you all the speakers
[48:20] for uh very very important uh
[48:23] presentations that you have made and I
[48:25] hope this uh session has had some uh
[48:28] positive outcome impact at least in your
[48:31] mind. I think the purpose of these kind
[48:34] of discussions is at least to get the
[48:36] mind thinking uh that there is some
[48:38] scope uh to try and change things. uh
[48:41] otherwise uh you know many of these uh
[48:44] kind of meetings uh one goes away
[48:46] thinking that all this discussion happen
[48:49] but what is it what is it that one can
[48:50] do actually I have to go back and do the
[48:53] same thing that I've been doing all
[48:54] these years that applies to all of us
[48:56] including us in the academia uh we must
[49:00] not lose hope and we must continue to do
[49:03] what we think can be done thank you
[49:06] >> thank you so much sir for this um if I
[49:10] may take the liberty of asking you all
[49:12] to have a working tea then we can simply
[49:15] move on to the next set.
[49:16] >> Thank you. Thank you Siccilia for uh you
[49:19] know sticking to your time limit and as
[49:21] a just like Muri has you also have
[49:24] raised some very very important issues
[49:27] uh particularly the issue of how what
[49:29] kind of data should be uh we should be
[49:32] having at our disposal and the data
[49:34] which is not only quantitative but also
[49:37] qualitative. the lack of professional
[49:39] social work or other kinds of
[49:41] interventions which are required if we
[49:43] want to create a better prison system
[49:46] and how the judiciary is also one of the
[49:49] pillars which is not accountable in the
[49:52] same way as the other wings of the
[49:53] criminal justice just justice system are
[49:55] made to uh at least seem accountable and
[49:59] also the issue of alternatives to
[50:01] incarceration. what are the ways that we
[50:03] can do? I just remembered uh a very very
[50:07] uh uh interesting and uh convincing
[50:11] argument that I read somewhere from a
[50:14] academic from America from the Arizona
[50:17] State University someone called uh Kevin
[50:20] Wright who has come up with this idea
[50:23] called better than arrival corrections.
[50:26] It's a very simple uh term which means
[50:30] uh he's saying that any person who
[50:33] enters the prison system when the person
[50:35] is going out his or her situation should
[50:39] be better than what it was when he
[50:40] entered. Physical health mental uh
[50:44] mentally livelihood whatever it may be
[50:47] it is the job of the corrections
[50:48] department to make sure that when he or
[50:50] she leaves the prison system he is a
[50:53] better person what he was when he
[50:55] entered. I think this is really captures
[50:58] uh what kind of correctional system we
[51:00] want you know better than arrival
[51:01] corrections. I thought it was really an
[51:03] interesting way to put it. Uh I now uh
[51:07] request Mr. Yeshu Raja to please uh
[51:11] speak. Thank you.
[51:12] >> So actually thanks a lot.
[51:15] Really the prison department first
[51:19] priority is security because that is
[51:21] what they need because uh for them the
[51:24] reformation regalitation and all all
[51:26] things are second because for them they
[51:29] want the priority is security morning
[51:32] they they are getting out,400
[51:36] prisoner evening they must be,400
[51:39] suppose if one is not there two is not
[51:41] there then their job will be go that is
[51:45] So always I have seen last 32 years.
[51:48] This is what because for them that is
[51:49] more important that is count is more
[51:52] important. If I am saying wrong please
[51:54] tell me this is more important because
[51:57] for them that is more important. We
[51:59] people are going and one day going and
[52:01] spending few time it is not there for
[52:03] them because morning so many people are
[52:05] there evening because that is the
[52:07] custodian of them because they have not
[52:09] put them the prisoners because the
[52:12] government that is court has directed
[52:14] them to keep they are only the
[52:15] custodians they can see this is a person
[52:19] so many people are there evening so this
[52:21] is what that's first thing second thing
[52:23] actually out of the total prison
[52:27] population according to Tamil Nad I'm
[52:29] saying suppose glo in Tamil Nad that is
[52:32] not over population one or two places
[52:34] 24,000 is accommodation 21,000 or 22,000
[52:37] only at the present out of these 6,000
[52:42] only convict 6,000 people are only
[52:45] convict next says only under trials we
[52:49] keep under trials and remain prisons so
[52:52] under trials we have 4,000
[52:55] but there are remain prisoners 12,000
[52:58] prisoners according to my understanding
[53:01] I'm not a law graduate as so according
[53:04] to my understanding that's remain
[53:06] prisoners remain prisoners are just put
[53:09] them in the prison due to security
[53:11] reasons or anything that is what I
[53:13] understand because trial prisoners means
[53:15] they are already filed the case court
[53:18] case is going on that is what trial
[53:20] prisoners but these remand prisoners
[53:22] that F is not filed or anything that is
[53:25] a different case these people Suppose if
[53:28] prime minister is coming or some secular
[53:31] immediately they will put 500 people
[53:33] inside the prison the number will be
[53:35] increasing after 2 weeks or 3 weeks they
[53:38] will be going away sending them away.
[53:40] What is the reason 3 weeks who they are
[53:42] there in the prison? So whose
[53:44] responsibility is there that so remand
[53:46] prisoners are 12,000 prisoners. That is
[53:48] why I always say to my volunteers please
[53:52] concentrate on the remand prisoners
[53:53] because they will be going and learning
[53:55] from the other people and getting to do
[53:58] the crime in a way which is not achieved
[54:02] by the so this is a remand prisoners or
[54:04] more. So we have to concentrate as a
[54:08] department what we can do because why we
[54:10] are putting them in the prison they have
[54:12] done nothing after one week see I have
[54:14] seen the remain prisoner for 2 three
[54:16] years in the prison because the people
[54:18] are there they will be out for me
[54:20] because 2 years there's no case he
[54:23] doesn't know when where why he is in the
[54:25] prison because he is illiterate he
[54:28] doesn't know why he is in the prison so
[54:30] like that so next thing is this actually
[54:33] the prisoners this NGO popular because
[54:36] he doesn't know that they are these as I
[54:39] told you prison officials cannot meet
[54:41] the prisoners families so only as a NGO
[54:45] or any NGO we go to the prison families
[54:49] their families and meet them because
[54:51] they will not accept al also I remember
[54:53] that he is one of the principal he was
[54:56] waiting in the front of the gate because
[54:58] the family does not accept them in the
[55:01] school that principal that ministers are
[55:04] waiting for the to meet the principal
[55:06] but this principal is going and waiting
[55:09] for the in front of the gate of the
[55:10] prisoner I know I went with them so but
[55:13] they not accepting after few times he
[55:16] accepted and bring them to the family so
[55:19] because of that only then only they can
[55:20] come and take them out they can we can
[55:23] make them understand that reunion with
[55:25] the family that is what otherwise that
[55:28] will not be happen what happen is many a
[55:30] times that this fellow who is with them
[55:33] they will arrange with the lawyer they
[55:35] will go with with the gundas and doing
[55:37] this is what happening so many times
[55:39] when we are saying sir he will take the
[55:42] bail why he is taking the bail he wanted
[55:44] to take advantage of that boy that is
[55:47] what he putting in the so many times
[55:49] because that man is taking advantage of
[55:51] that man the same thing is happening for
[55:53] the ladies I have seen that so many
[55:55] adulates are the taking paying one lakh
[55:57] rupee for that and taking one lakh rupee
[55:59] he is paying for that lady means how
[56:01] much money he must have taken from that
[56:04] Who is responsible for that? Because
[56:06] that directly if the if the family
[56:08] members father or mother, wife or
[56:11] children if he is coming he will not do
[56:13] that. Maybe because of the money. So as
[56:16] government is saying that we are having
[56:17] money but we can send we we must bring
[56:20] the family only bring the family then
[56:22] that we can do something. Last but not
[56:26] actually as it is said many when they
[56:29] are arrested itself arrested in the
[56:33] police station itself many will get bail
[56:35] or if they go court they will get the
[56:38] bail but who is in the prison 90% more
[56:42] than 90% are the poor and innocent they
[56:44] do not know how to write you know that
[56:47] they put the that uh
[56:51] thumb impression doing that how because
[56:54] they do not know why they are there. So
[56:57] only poor people are there and without
[57:00] getting bail and other things. This is
[57:02] what I would like to thank.
[57:04] >> Thank you sir. Thank you uh so much for
[57:07] your uh comments and you have really
[57:10] focused on uh the profile the background
[57:12] of people who end up in prison and what
[57:15] happens to them how they get uh you know
[57:17] slowly criminalized by habitual and gang
[57:21] elements and how there is a difficulty
[57:24] in terms of family acceptance and the uh
[57:28] you know vested interests pushing them
[57:30] in the path of crime. Uh this is these
[57:33] are some very important issues. Uh if uh
[57:36] the house is now open for any uh
[57:42] questions or even uh your own comments
[57:45] or suggestions with regard to uh what
[57:48] the topic of today's uh technical
[57:50] session one was about which is looking
[57:52] at what are the reasons why there is
[57:54] overcrowding in prison and what are the
[57:56] responses how do we find a solution uh
[57:59] to these problems. So if anybody wants
[58:02] to uh say something uh the mic can go
[58:05] around.
[58:06] >> Good afternoon sir. Uh sir uh as sir
[58:10] said Mr. Misa said uh many prisoners are
[58:14] uh
[58:16] incarcerated uh more than 3 to 5 years.
[58:19] Uh in my experience uh 99%age of NDPS
[58:24] cases prisoners are there more than 3 to
[58:27] 5 years. uh other cases only one
[58:30] percentages are there.
[58:35] >> Okay.
[58:37] commercial who comes under
[58:40] folks so
[58:43] not much like NDPS cases uh commercial
[58:46] quantity NDPS process they don't get
[58:49] bail uh earlier okay so they has to be
[58:53] under incarceration for more years
[58:58] right
[59:02] >> okay anybody else would like to say One
[59:04] thing
[59:05] >> Maduruma should I wind up?
[59:08] >> Uh maybe a little bit. Uh Dr. Raun if
[59:10] you can only identify uh in terms of
[59:13] we've looked at the different
[59:15] stakeholders but for every stakeholder
[59:18] where would the prison administrator
[59:19] come in that would wrap up the session
[59:21] properly.
[59:23] >> Okay. So uh you know for me the crucial
[59:27] point is the absence of uh effective
[59:31] interdep departmental coordination
[59:32] forums.
[59:34] uh I think that is at the root of uh the
[59:36] fact that the systems are all working in
[59:39] their own independent silos and uh
[59:42] mostly the coordination is happening
[59:44] through paperwork. So for example, if I
[59:48] uh as a prison officer or superintendent
[59:51] uh want police escorts, all I can do is
[59:54] write to the police and ask for the
[59:57] number of escorts that are required on
[59:59] the next date or the you know particular
[01:00:01] dates and how many prisoners but if they
[01:00:03] don't provide those numbers I have no
[01:00:06] mechanism to go back and talk about it.
[01:00:09] Similarly, if we are talking about the
[01:00:11] fact that video conferencing facilities
[01:00:14] are available but magistrates are
[01:00:15] sometimes not coming for those video
[01:00:17] conferencing sessions, I have no forum
[01:00:20] to go and talk about it. Uh so myriad
[01:00:23] number of issues the question of
[01:00:25] premature release uh with the fact that
[01:00:28] superintendents are recommending cases
[01:00:30] but they don't get uh you know finally
[01:00:32] decided at the uh higher levels that's
[01:00:35] again another issue. So uh I have uh a
[01:00:40] suggestion which we have tried out in
[01:00:42] Maharashtra and it has shown partial
[01:00:45] results. I won't say it has been very
[01:00:47] successful is that uh through a Bombay
[01:00:49] High Court PIL uh uh two forums were
[01:00:53] created. One is called the state
[01:00:55] interdep departmental committee on
[01:00:57] prisoners. This committee is chaired by
[01:01:00] the secretary law and judiciary and it
[01:01:03] has its members. The home se uh prisons
[01:01:06] is the secretary prisons home department
[01:01:08] is the member secretary and the other
[01:01:11] members include the member secretary of
[01:01:12] DLSA SLSA sorry uh the department of
[01:01:16] women and child development department
[01:01:18] of health and uh also police and uh
[01:01:21] Prias is one of the members of this
[01:01:24] committee. Now it is very difficult to
[01:01:26] organize these meetings but we are
[01:01:28] successful in organizing at least one
[01:01:31] meeting a year when all these top
[01:01:33] secretary level officers are present. If
[01:01:35] they are not there then their immediate
[01:01:38] junior joint secretary or deputy
[01:01:40] secretary is present and in these
[01:01:42] meetings number of issues are discussed
[01:01:44] and certain policy level decisions are
[01:01:47] taken. So it's like a forum where things
[01:01:49] can go uh up to the highest level and
[01:01:52] some immediate decisions uh can get
[01:01:54] taken which are again need to be uh
[01:01:57] followed up. Uh similarly at the
[01:02:00] district level there is something called
[01:02:02] a district interdep departmental
[01:02:03] subcommittee on prisoners. This
[01:02:05] subcommittee is chaired by the principal
[01:02:07] district judge and the members include
[01:02:10] the secretary DLSA, SP nominee of the
[01:02:13] SP, the district women and child
[01:02:15] development officer, the civil surgeon
[01:02:18] and the pro district probation officer
[01:02:20] and one recognized NGO which is working
[01:02:22] in prisons in that particular district.
[01:02:25] Now here also the experience has been
[01:02:27] that they are supposed to meet once in 3
[01:02:29] months every quarter and this forum has
[01:02:32] actually helped in people coming
[01:02:34] together and discussing issues and
[01:02:37] problems face to face where you know if
[01:02:40] there is a problem that is being faced
[01:02:42] for example the post of doctors are not
[01:02:44] being filled up they can at least bring
[01:02:46] it up before that committee and that
[01:02:48] committee in turn can recommend to the
[01:02:50] state level committee that this is a
[01:02:51] problem that needs to be looked into.
[01:02:53] the issue of police escort when the SP
[01:02:56] is also present and the district judge
[01:02:58] is there then the prison officer can say
[01:03:01] that this is the data regarding the last
[01:03:03] three months where escorts have not been
[01:03:05] provided and the district judge talks to
[01:03:07] the SP and that has an impact so it is
[01:03:10] like an interdep departmental regular
[01:03:12] forum where people are coming together
[01:03:14] they're discussing things creating some
[01:03:17] kind of uh I would say trust with each
[01:03:20] other that problems can be solved
[01:03:22] because generally I find that in the
[01:03:24] criminal justice system there is a there
[01:03:27] is too much of cynicism and lack of
[01:03:29] trust on each other and all of them have
[01:03:32] their own uh problems. Nobody is free of
[01:03:35] problems. If you talk to each of them
[01:03:37] independently today we are talking to
[01:03:39] prison officers and we are getting a
[01:03:41] certain picture. Tomorrow if we have a
[01:03:43] meeting of all the legal aid authorities
[01:03:45] we'll get a different picture. The
[01:03:47] problem I think is one of not coming
[01:03:50] together and discussing in a uh forum. I
[01:03:53] mean that's one of the problems that we
[01:03:55] are talking about. Of course there are
[01:03:56] very basic issues and problems which
[01:03:59] people like uh Dr. Burli and Sicilia
[01:04:02] have pointed out. Uh but the question is
[01:04:04] how do we move forward and this is one
[01:04:07] suggestion from my side. If in your at
[01:04:09] your state level you could discuss this
[01:04:12] with your prison heads of department and
[01:04:14] they in turn could kind of move
[01:04:16] something like this both at the district
[01:04:18] and the state level. I think it would
[01:04:20] have some impact in terms of decision
[01:04:23] making when it comes to uh problems
[01:04:26] faced in the criminal justice system. I
[01:04:28] think with that uh I have nothing more
[01:04:30] to add in particular uh from the three
[01:04:34] presentations that we had. I think what
[01:04:36] I take away uh is one is the role of the
[01:04:40] prison officer which Dr. Murli Kuram has
[01:04:43] rightfully highlighted that how a good
[01:04:45] prison officer or a person a prison
[01:04:47] officer is committed can make a
[01:04:49] difference to the situation of
[01:04:50] prisoners. the issue of uh absence of
[01:04:54] professionally trained staff and how
[01:04:56] that is really important when we are
[01:04:58] talking about uh bringing in some kind
[01:05:00] of reforms in the system and also the
[01:05:03] ability to produce and maintain good
[01:05:06] data uh is another issue that came out
[01:05:08] from Cecilia's presentation and Mr.
[01:05:11] Yesuraja talked about you know issues of
[01:05:14] uh how the priorities of the prison
[01:05:16] department lie somewhere else and
[01:05:19] whereas the requirements when if you're
[01:05:21] talking about creating a more humane
[01:05:23] justice system uh they lie somewhere
[01:05:25] else. So these are some of the points
[01:05:27] that came up. Thank you all the speakers
[01:05:29] for uh very very important uh
[01:05:33] presentations that you have made and I
[01:05:35] hope this uh session has had some uh
[01:05:38] positive outcome impact at least in your
[01:05:40] mind. I think the purpose of these kind
[01:05:43] of discussions is at least to get the
[01:05:45] mind thinking uh that there is some
[01:05:48] scope uh to try and change things. uh
[01:05:51] otherwise uh you know many of these uh
[01:05:53] kind of meetings uh one goes away
[01:05:56] thinking that all this discussion
[01:05:58] happened but what is it what is it that
[01:06:00] one can do actually I have to go back
[01:06:02] and do the same thing that I've been
[01:06:03] doing all these years that applies to
[01:06:05] all of us including us in the academia
[01:06:08] uh we must not lose hope and we must
[01:06:12] continue to do what we think can be done
[01:06:14] thank you
[01:06:16] >> thank you so much sir
[01:06:17] >> uh good evening all um Uh this is a
[01:06:21] session on operational challenges and
[01:06:24] ground realities. Since morning we have
[01:06:26] been uh listening uh to uh you know
[01:06:30] representatives of academia uh civil
[01:06:32] society members and now the the the core
[01:06:37] uh you know idea of uh this consultation
[01:06:40] uh we are entering into that. Uh we have
[01:06:42] four uh speakers uh uh in this session.
[01:06:46] Uh it is a group of uh officers like we
[01:06:50] have Wenger Ready who was put in service
[01:06:52] for more than 30 years in prisons. We
[01:06:55] have uh oh yes going yeah and uh we have
[01:07:00] Datranita Nikila about 15 to 20 years of
[01:07:04] service and Barat say around some 10
[01:07:06] years of service. So it's a it's a mixed
[01:07:08] group of officers uh who have been
[01:07:10] experiencing a different uh era of uh
[01:07:14] prison system in our country. I think
[01:07:16] this is a very good combination of
[01:07:18] officers who would be sharing their
[01:07:20] experiences. Uh welcome uh to all the
[01:07:23] speakers since it is my uh session I'm
[01:07:26] welcoming you. And uh before uh yeah uh
[01:07:31] before I invite uh the speakers uh I was
[01:07:35] just doing some homework on the JR 2025.
[01:07:39] Uh of course uh these numbers we are we
[01:07:42] are bored with the numbers since
[01:07:43] morning. uh since uh
[01:07:47] uh matrix that matter uh I would like to
[01:07:50] highlight a few important uh data which
[01:07:52] I have uh taken from um IGR of course
[01:07:56] the IGR data or uh purely drawn from the
[01:08:00] government records uh nationally prison
[01:08:03] overcrowding has continued to worsen
[01:08:06] over the last decade occupancy level
[01:08:09] rose from 112% in 2012 to3 31 in 2022
[01:08:16] and our undertrails now form about 76%
[01:08:20] of the total prison population. This uh
[01:08:24] continues to place uh enormous pressure
[01:08:28] on space staffing health service
[01:08:32] segregation and rehabilitation
[01:08:34] activities. This is what the core uh
[01:08:37] issues we are going to discuss now. To
[01:08:40] understand the extent of this problem,
[01:08:42] let me highlight a few important uh uh
[01:08:45] statistics from India justice report
[01:08:47] 2025. It's of course from not from South
[01:08:49] India just to you know have uh the
[01:08:52] impact of uh this uh overcrowding.
[01:08:55] Overcrowding has become a near universal
[01:08:58] feature of Indian prisons as my mamm
[01:09:00] mentioned today morning and it is
[01:09:03] steadily increasing. In 2020, 48%age of
[01:09:07] the country's prisons were overcrowded.
[01:09:09] By 2022, this had risen to 55%.
[01:09:14] In fact, 12 prisons across India
[01:09:17] recorded occupancy levels above 400%.
[01:09:20] Uttar Pradesh, Muradabad district prison
[01:09:23] recorded the highest at 497 percentage.
[01:09:28] followed by Kandi Subjel in West Bengal
[01:09:31] at 477%age
[01:09:34] and Maharashtra Tani central prison at
[01:09:37] 401%.
[01:09:40] Nationwide 91 prisons recorded occupancy
[01:09:43] rates of 250%age
[01:09:45] and above while 259 prisons had
[01:09:49] occupancy levels between 150%
[01:09:52] to 250%.
[01:09:55] However,
[01:09:56] even uh in southern states with
[01:09:59] manageable overall occupancy, short-term
[01:10:01] congestions, high undertrail inflow and
[01:10:05] staff shortages continue to create daily
[01:10:07] operational strain. So with this
[01:10:09] background u I think uh we will listen
[01:10:12] to the speakers. Uh maybe I'll invite
[01:10:16] how long we'll have me we can have about
[01:10:18] 10 to 10 minutes for each speaker. And
[01:10:22] uh at last I have developed four
[01:10:25] questions after making this homework and
[01:10:27] at the end of uh this session I'll uh
[01:10:30] share those four questions to all the
[01:10:32] participants. Maybe for tomorrow's uh uh
[01:10:35] activity action plan I think if you are
[01:10:38] able to collect some uh you know answers
[01:10:42] uh we can uh make uh you know these
[01:10:44] things can be part of our
[01:10:46] recommendation. Yeah. So uh may now
[01:10:48] request Dr. Anita to make a
[01:10:51] presentation.
[01:10:54] >> Good evening everyone.
[01:10:57] >> Good evening sir. Um the slides will be
[01:11:01] on or I just talk. Yeah we will come
[01:11:04] down uh we'll go to the current
[01:11:05] situation of overcrowding the next
[01:11:09] few things or we need to look on that
[01:11:11] aspect also where it needs to be
[01:11:13] specific to that region. I believe we
[01:11:16] come up with some solutions that will be
[01:11:17] more effective. Thank you very much.
[01:11:20] >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
[01:11:22] And now you are reminding us of the
[01:11:24] UTRC's list. No Madrima when she was in
[01:11:27] CHI. I think this there
[01:11:29] >> no this revisions and all happened when
[01:11:31] I was with NALSA.
[01:11:32] >> When she was there in CH no when I was
[01:11:34] with Nalsa I for one and a half years I
[01:11:36] was working as a research consultant
[01:11:38] with NALSA. So the revisions uh the
[01:11:41] fixing so UTRC's now function four times
[01:11:44] a year on a fixed date.
[01:11:46] >> So that the formats 16
[01:11:49] >> with these 16 categories. Yes.
[01:11:51] >> So it was because of the Kalaborgi case
[01:11:54] is why I devised the the campaign. No,
[01:11:58] why I devised the campaign for because
[01:12:00] of that I used that to deise the
[01:12:03] campaign to release senior and
[01:12:05] terminally ill prisoners. The campaign
[01:12:07] that had happened it was because of this
[01:12:09] case at Kaleri only. Yes. I used that to
[01:12:12] convince at NALSA that see there are so
[01:12:15] many such people we should release them.
[01:12:17] they are suffering in prison. Yes.
[01:12:18] >> Thank you. Thank you Dr. Anita. Thank
[01:12:20] you so much for making a wonderful
[01:12:22] presentation. I mean it is in detail. Uh
[01:12:24] you have taken liberally taken extra 10
[01:12:26] minutes time. Since other speakers were
[01:12:29] telling that they have they they don't
[01:12:30] want more time. I thought okay let her
[01:12:32] take uh the time
[01:12:37] thank you Dr. Nita. I mean uh actually
[01:12:39] as per this IGR Karnataka is among the
[01:12:42] better FMA performing states in in our
[01:12:45] country next to you know Tamil Nadu and
[01:12:48] uh of course uh like all these
[01:12:51] difficulties which you have mentioned uh
[01:12:54] uh and the sign significant improvements
[01:12:56] that that are made um for reducing uh
[01:13:01] overcrowding in the prisons. Yes, thank
[01:13:04] you Dr. Anita. I mean anyway we'll have
[01:13:06] our discussion last. Uh before that
[01:13:09] Barat
[01:13:11] Barat are you online?
[01:13:13] >> Yes sir.
[01:13:14] >> Yeah I may I request uh Barat to make
[01:13:17] his presentation.
[01:13:19] >> Yes.
[01:13:20] Um good afternoon everyone and I thank
[01:13:23] uh India justice report team and
[01:13:26] director Afka and faculty uh for
[01:13:28] providing uh this opportunity
[01:13:31] uh to present uh the case repres
[01:13:34] presentation. So as this session is
[01:13:37] specific to challenges part uh
[01:13:40] operational challenges of prisons
[01:13:42] overcrowding and I believe there is a
[01:13:45] session tomorrow for addressing the
[01:13:48] issues uh for these challenges. So I'll
[01:13:50] limit myself to my personal experiences.
[01:13:53] Uh where I was in a jail superintendent
[01:13:56] um in prison. So I work in a place
[01:14:01] district prison Sarad earlier. It was
[01:14:03] upgraded to central prison sangari.
[01:14:06] So this uh prison was meant to be for
[01:14:09] 340 plus 40 380 authorized
[01:14:12] accommodation. But uh since past 4 years
[01:14:15] the jail is running uh anywhere lock up
[01:14:17] between 550 to 650. Uh so there is
[01:14:20] overcrowding from 130% to 170%. And sh
[01:14:25] is severely understaffed 25 guarding
[01:14:28] staff and uh uh three of the officers
[01:14:30] and myself. Um so uh there are various
[01:14:34] operational challenges uh comes with
[01:14:36] this uh overcrowding. So uh when it
[01:14:40] comes to shortage of space uh the the
[01:14:44] Sangari prison is inside the the prison
[01:14:47] it is very big area 13 acres it's a
[01:14:50] model prison but the barracks and blocks
[01:14:52] are very limited so in order to keep the
[01:14:54] prisoners so there is a shortage of
[01:14:57] blocks and I mean barracks especially
[01:14:59] barracks and uh there is a issue with
[01:15:03] the segregation aspect we cannot keep
[01:15:05] segregate the uh inmates hardcore
[01:15:09] inmates to the young offenders and any
[01:15:12] uh persons with infectious diseases and
[01:15:16] adolescent offenders. So it is very
[01:15:18] difficult to segregate them when it is
[01:15:20] overcrowding
[01:15:22] and uh uh very hard to focus uh and
[01:15:26] provide uh individual specific
[01:15:28] reformation activities. So group
[01:15:30] specific activities we can implement but
[01:15:33] individual specific uh it is very
[01:15:36] difficult to implement as the staff are
[01:15:38] overburdened and fortunately the prison
[01:15:41] is very big there are very good open
[01:15:42] spaces and barracks are spacious and
[01:15:45] sufficient lighting and ventilation no
[01:15:48] uh health issues or any uh major
[01:15:50] security issues are happened but uh the
[01:15:53] overcrowding took toll on many things
[01:15:57] along it it creates some kind of stress
[01:15:59] on prisoners as well as on the staff
[01:16:01] also including the superintendent.
[01:16:05] So uh and when it comes to the resources
[01:16:08] part uh we are less staff so obviously
[01:16:12] uh and uh um there is overcrowding there
[01:16:15] is big strain on resources especially
[01:16:18] the gate it was earlier a district jail
[01:16:22] the gate movement is very heavy when the
[01:16:24] prisoners are more the gate movement is
[01:16:26] very heavy prisoners come to Mulakat to
[01:16:28] the gate prisoners the main telephone
[01:16:31] section is in near the gate and all
[01:16:33] video conferences occur near the gate
[01:16:35] and in and out movements, video
[01:16:36] productions, bail releases. So there is
[01:16:38] a heavy strain on gate. So it includ
[01:16:43] uh issues also. And uh the kitchen a
[01:16:46] kitchen designed for the uh food
[01:16:49] preparation and distribution of the
[01:16:50] prisoners also. Uh it it uh the strain
[01:16:55] on this this kind of resources also and
[01:16:59] uh the open spaces, lawns, maintenance
[01:17:01] of space uh and these these kind of
[01:17:04] issues also existing and uh interview
[01:17:07] especially uh the interviews we have to
[01:17:10] provide 20 minutes for each inmate. So
[01:17:13] there are if suppose there are six
[01:17:14] chambers interviews. So every day around
[01:17:17] 50 members in 50 inmate interviews uh so
[01:17:20] it is very difficult to allot the time
[01:17:22] uh to freely speak with the legal
[01:17:25] counselor family members if there is
[01:17:26] very huge overcrowding. We cannot uh we
[01:17:29] have to cartel the timing interview
[01:17:31] timings in order to cater the every all
[01:17:34] the interviews and similarly the
[01:17:37] telephone system provided by the prison
[01:17:39] uh prison telephone systems uh to the
[01:17:42] inmates. So either we have to increase
[01:17:45] the capacity but uh given given the
[01:17:47] limited space and infrastructure we have
[01:17:49] to uh uh limit the timings. So uh and
[01:17:53] there is strain on clothing bedding
[01:17:55] especially in winters. So in prison
[01:17:57] clothing bedding uh all wear and tear
[01:18:00] happens and uh the timely uh procurement
[01:18:04] and some minor issues will uh are there
[01:18:08] and uh when it comes to security aspect
[01:18:11] uh so there is a security aspect uh the
[01:18:14] segregation aspect there there is a big
[01:18:16] big effect on security uh the hardcore
[01:18:20] inmates cannot be kept in cells but even
[01:18:22] if we have to keep in cells we cannot
[01:18:24] allot one cell for one inmate so we have
[01:18:26] keep a three members in a medium-sized
[01:18:29] cell. uh and u uh so segregation is a
[01:18:33] little difficult and as I said earlier
[01:18:36] uh people with uh some kind of
[01:18:38] infectious diseases TB or some kind of
[01:18:41] diseases comes uh it uh affect the
[01:18:44] prison population and
[01:18:48] more number of people in cells and
[01:18:50] barracks we need to keep and multiple
[01:18:52] cases if we have to send in an
[01:18:54] emergencies and even it it takes impact
[01:18:57] on uh the hospital uh prison doctor and
[01:19:01] the medical staff. Uh and if in case of
[01:19:04] emergencies if you want to send to out
[01:19:06] hospital the prisoners at a time one or
[01:19:09] two members we have to send so in
[01:19:11] emergency cases generally we send the
[01:19:13] our jail staff jail orders to the
[01:19:15] hospital. So the the existing staff the
[01:19:18] functioning staff uh has to go and the
[01:19:21] there is very limited staff present in
[01:19:23] the prison at any time. So it it creates
[01:19:25] some security constraints.
[01:19:29] Similar similarly and space limitations.
[01:19:31] One thing I observed is uh uh in prison
[01:19:35] especially some programs conducted uh
[01:19:37] judicial related uh prison
[01:19:40] uh jails especially jails when
[01:19:43] magistrates come and conduct adalat
[01:19:44] there and TI parades so especially the
[01:19:47] Saturday is their day they three or four
[01:19:50] magistrates come at a time and conduct
[01:19:52] we don't have many many chambers or
[01:19:54] rooms to keep and people come many
[01:19:57] people we have to call the many inmates
[01:19:59] to the gate so uh there is uh uh uh the
[01:20:03] security uh concerns in in that uh
[01:20:06] especially in such kind of times.
[01:20:08] >> Yeah, actually Kaluri concerned uh the
[01:20:10] slide uh maybe uh not only to Kaluri, it
[01:20:14] is also to the state uh we find there
[01:20:17] nearly 3 years ago we were having around
[01:20:20] 1,200 uh inmates but now we are reduced
[01:20:24] to 548. The actual capacity is 545.
[01:20:28] Current population is 548 prisoners. The
[01:20:32] population is almost equal to the
[01:20:33] sanction strength. In this significant
[01:20:36] improvement over last 3 years, earlier
[01:20:38] the prisoners population was around
[01:20:40] thousand leading to severe overcrowding.
[01:20:42] Over the past 3 years the population has
[01:20:44] steadily reduced and is now almost equal
[01:20:47] to capacity. This improvement is due to
[01:20:50] uh combination of administrative,
[01:20:52] judicial and legal aid measures. We can
[01:20:55] come down. Yeah. services and technology
[01:20:58] adoption like Kalugi central prison has
[01:21:00] successfully brought down its inmates.
[01:21:02] What we are they're trying to say is uh
[01:21:04] like premature release conducted
[01:21:06] regularly uh speedier bail processing
[01:21:10] and relaxation of bail shy conditions.
[01:21:12] Active UTRC undertrial review committee
[01:21:15] meetings held at regular intervals.
[01:21:17] Release of eligible undertrial
[01:21:18] prisoners. High court interventions like
[01:21:21] read petitions and orders enabling
[01:21:23] release body war uh release on body
[01:21:25] warrant where uh applicable directions
[01:21:29] implemented promptly and uh effective
[01:21:32] legal aid services. Well functioning
[01:21:34] legal aid services easy access for
[01:21:37] prisoners to legal aid services.
[01:21:39] Technology enabled efficiency like CCMS
[01:21:41] e prisons and kiosk machines provided uh
[01:21:44] case details uh instantly. automated
[01:21:47] alerts uh under uh section 436 CRPC,
[01:21:50] BNSS and other provisions uh 95
[01:21:53] production 95% production through video
[01:21:56] conferencing ensures no delays and
[01:21:59] timely LCRC and other release process
[01:22:01] completed without uh backlog
[01:22:04] that is state level uh release committee
[01:22:07] live convex committee after uh uh the
[01:22:10] advisory board at the prison level which
[01:22:12] goes to the LCRC there it goes to the
[01:22:15] cabinet and then to the Governor. Yeah,
[01:22:18] that is the committee. And here uh
[01:22:20] Karnataka actually has three uh advisory
[01:22:23] board meetings. In this uh we place the
[01:22:26] prisoners in front of the advisory board
[01:22:29] and uh from prison level it goes to the
[01:22:31] LCRC then to the cabinet and then to the
[01:22:34] governor and then we release the
[01:22:36] prisoners but which which is happening
[01:22:38] uh very effectively. I mean there is no
[01:22:41] delay as Cecilia. I don't know what was
[01:22:44] your uh stake on that uh whether uh uh
[01:22:48] premature releases we were doing
[01:22:50] regularly or effectively or not
[01:22:52] happening. You were saying something on
[01:22:53] that.
[01:22:54] >> Yeah, recently the numbers are reduced.
[01:22:57] uh usually we don't we what we recommend
[01:22:59] uh they usually may not be coming back
[01:23:02] uh rejected and uh the cases which need
[01:23:05] to be referred to MHA for uh like
[01:23:08] central government act like SCST act or
[01:23:11] DIY DP prohibition acts and all they go
[01:23:14] to MHA and there the delays that is also
[01:23:17] a very lesser percentage and most
[01:23:20] recently say at least from 2 years we
[01:23:22] are not having uh single rejections from
[01:23:25] LCRC's
[01:23:27] from in this prison where I'm working
[01:23:29] now. I don't know about the rest of the
[01:23:31] prisons. Those who are getting back from
[01:23:34] court also uh more than uh 400 500 to
[01:23:39] 600 police staff are waiting outside the
[01:23:42] gate and they are in insisting us please
[01:23:45] take our prisoners inside first. So, so
[01:23:48] we have headache and sometimes we
[01:23:51] receive call from uh DCs and ACS why you
[01:23:55] are keeping our person our staff long
[01:23:57] very long time they are asking us um so
[01:24:02] they are under pressure always and also
[01:24:04] we use executive staff for uh control
[01:24:08] room remission and also interview ebook
[01:24:11] e-booking and prison buser activities.
[01:24:14] So we are we have very less staff for
[01:24:17] security purpose. So we depute one staff
[01:24:20] one wer for one block with in which more
[01:24:24] than 500 to 600 prisoners are kept and
[01:24:28] two off one officer for two blocks. So
[01:24:31] that one wer he has to open all uh
[01:24:35] dormatory blocks uh for sending the
[01:24:38] prisoners for court mulakat all those
[01:24:41] things and also uh he has to distribute
[01:24:44] the meals for three times uh one uh yeah
[01:24:49] same water uh one so meals uh regarding
[01:24:52] meals one water has to provide one meal
[01:24:56] morning shift water uh for breakfast uh
[01:24:59] second shift order for lunch sorry
[01:25:02] morning uh order he will serve two two
[01:25:04] two food uh 500 people 500 to 750 people
[01:25:11] so he he uh automatically he under
[01:25:15] pressure
[01:25:16] even though he is doing all this work if
[01:25:19] any word incidents happen like uh
[01:25:21] suicide escape means we will definitely
[01:25:24] take discipline actions against him and
[01:25:27] uh also we have to raise human rights
[01:25:31] commission also and sometimes uh that
[01:25:35] person will uh give his own money as
[01:25:39] compensation also
[01:25:42] and the shortage of space uh already I
[01:25:45] said uh the prison uh the block it has
[01:25:49] only capacity of 200 prisoners but we uh
[01:25:53] keep more than 500 prisoners in that
[01:25:56] block so it is congested uh prisoners
[01:25:59] will always uh complaining us uh ma sir
[01:26:04] he will hit me while we are sleeping he
[01:26:06] will put my put his hand on me because
[01:26:09] due to congestion they are not able to
[01:26:12] move freely also so it keeps them under
[01:26:15] pressure mentally also they keep them uh
[01:26:18] we keep them under pressure and also
[01:26:21] medicine uh quarterly in this prison uh
[01:26:25] we receive 1 lak 50,000 rupees
[01:26:29] for medicine but we have uh 3,500 people
[01:26:33] are there. So that we have to spend um
[01:26:36] money for purchasing medicines. Through
[01:26:39] local purchase also we are spending
[01:26:41] money
[01:26:42] and hygiene and sanitation we are
[01:26:45] compromised because uh uh for one block
[01:26:49] we have uh 60 outer toilets but uh for
[01:26:53] one block uh inner and outer toilets are
[01:26:56] 60 but we have 750 prisoners. So that uh
[01:27:00] we are not uh we are compromised with
[01:27:02] this and then uh
[01:27:06] every Saturday our uh we are sending
[01:27:09] prisoners to the ill prisoners to the
[01:27:11] out hospital. We have three doctors and
[01:27:14] uh for further treatment uh we'll send
[01:27:16] the prisoners uh to the out hospital for
[01:27:19] for uh we depend on air armed reserve
[01:27:23] police escorts. If we request for uh
[01:27:27] escorts for 100 prisoners means we'll
[01:27:30] get only escorts for 20 to 30 prisoners.
[01:27:34] So we'll uh we'll face lot of problems.
[01:27:37] So in case of emergency we'll send the
[01:27:40] prisoners through our escorts. Uh if we
[01:27:44] send our uh staff to the out hospital
[01:27:47] also we are waiting for air people to
[01:27:51] hand over the prisoners. Sometimes uh it
[01:27:54] will take two to three days also. So
[01:27:56] that we have a shortage of uh staff uh
[01:27:59] for our security
[01:28:02] and then uh there is a problem in uh for
[01:28:06] cooking and distribution of uh meals
[01:28:08] also because we have limited uh source
[01:28:11] of vessels and uh distribution vessels.
[01:28:15] So we have problems. Uh it will take
[01:28:17] more time
[01:28:22] and also uh when at the time of uh after
[01:28:26] the admission we will send the uh
[01:28:30] intimation information to the closest
[01:28:33] relatives of the prisoner. Uh we'll
[01:28:36] mention we'll send message to through
[01:28:39] WhatsApp. will mention uh this
[01:28:41] prisoner's P number is so and so and you
[01:28:44] can contact uh this number to book for
[01:28:48] interview we have sent it uh we'll send
[01:28:50] it if that prisoner doesn't know the
[01:28:53] number of anyone we'll ask we'll get the
[01:28:56] number from the uh police station
[01:28:58] concern police station and we'll inform
[01:29:01] the uh closest relative of that prisoner
[01:29:04] so uh there is no issue uh about uh uh
[01:29:09] No prisoners can tell that um our uh
[01:29:13] family members doesn't know uh that I am
[01:29:15] here. So that there is no problem
[01:29:20] and transferring of the madam said that
[01:29:24] uh
[01:29:24] >> and now you are reminding us of the
[01:29:26] UTRC's list. No madima when she was in
[01:29:29] CH I think this year that
[01:29:32] >> no this revisions and all happened when
[01:29:34] I was with NLAs.
[01:29:35] >> When she was there in CH no when I was
[01:29:36] in NALSA I for one and a half years I
[01:29:39] was working as a research consultant
[01:29:40] with NALSA. So the revisions uh the
[01:29:43] fixing so UTRC's now function four times
[01:29:47] a year on a fixed date. So that the
[01:29:50] formats
[01:29:50] >> 16
[01:29:51] >> with these 16 categories. Yes.
[01:29:54] >> So it was because of the Kalaborgi case
[01:29:57] is why I devised the the campaign. No
[01:30:00] why I devised the campaign for because
[01:30:03] of that I used that to deise the
[01:30:05] campaign to release senior and
[01:30:08] terminally ill prisoners. the campaign
[01:30:10] that had happened it was because of this
[01:30:12] case at caliberi only. Yes, I used that
[01:30:15] to convince at NASA that see there are
[01:30:17] so many such people we should release
[01:30:19] them they are suffering in prison. Yes.
[01:30:21] >> Thank you. Thank you Dr. Anita. Thank
[01:30:22] you so much for making a wonderful
[01:30:24] presentation. I mean it is in detail uh
[01:30:27] you have taken liberally taken extra 10
[01:30:29] minutes time since other speakers were
[01:30:31] telling that they have they they don't
[01:30:33] want more time. I thought okay let her
[01:30:34] take uh the time.
[01:30:39] Uh thank you Dr. Nita. I mean uh
[01:30:42] actually as per this IGR Karnataka is
[01:30:44] among the better FMA performing states
[01:30:47] uh in in our country next to you know
[01:30:49] Tamil Nadu and uh of course uh like all
[01:30:54] these difficulties which you have
[01:30:55] mentioned uh uh and the sign significant
[01:30:58] improvements that that are made um for
[01:31:02] reducing uh overcrowding in the prisons.
[01:31:05] Yes, thank you Dr. Anita. I mean anyway
[01:31:07] we'll have our discussion last. Uh
[01:31:10] before that Barat
[01:31:14] Barat are you online?
[01:31:16] >> Yes sir.
[01:31:16] >> Yeah I may and I request uh Barat to
[01:31:20] make his presentation. The presence in
[01:31:22] South India is far better. Of course
[01:31:23] that is true also. uh and when we visit
[01:31:27] north Indian prisons this overcrowding
[01:31:29] it'll be visible the it is evident the
[01:31:32] moment you enter the prison you'll be
[01:31:34] able to uh see that uh and here it is
[01:31:38] not the case you know like we are
[01:31:39] entirely different but now when you are
[01:31:41] detailing all these things it's really
[01:31:43] surprising that we always feel that you
[01:31:45] have pressure we know the other pressure
[01:31:47] you you face but amidst all these
[01:31:50] pressures you are also you know working
[01:31:52] and treating us whenever we come to your
[01:31:54] prison you talk to us. You talk to us
[01:31:57] very nicely. You know like though these
[01:32:01] uh problems the reality ground reality
[01:32:04] which you have mentioned all the three
[01:32:05] speakers though it looks similar but it
[01:32:08] varies state to state it it may look
[01:32:11] yeah prison to prison it varies and uh
[01:32:14] now we have listened to the young
[01:32:15] officers uh we have the experienced
[01:32:18] officer Mr. Wenger ready uh we'll listen
[01:32:20] to him and then I'll finally wrap up.
[01:32:22] I'll wrapping up I have a few points to
[01:32:24] add.
[01:32:25] Yeah,
[01:32:27] >> but your experience speaks much more.
[01:32:34] >> Thank you. Regarding our presence
[01:32:37] actually
[01:32:39] they have covered all the
[01:32:42] topic. So
[01:32:46] I will tell
[01:32:48] justice s told that author is
[01:32:51] accommodation actually actual other
[01:32:53] accommodation as per the NHRC norms we
[01:32:56] are not following the NHRC norms if we
[01:32:58] follow the NHR norms the war coding will
[01:33:00] be 2,000%. Any prison? Any prison?
[01:33:04] Living conditions. Living space. Living
[01:33:06] space or prison.
[01:33:08] >> Yes. As for the model prison manual.
[01:33:11] >> Any prison. Take it. Take take it for
[01:33:12] granted. Any prison it will 2,000 to
[01:33:14] 5,000%.
[01:33:16] Over coding.
[01:33:19] In my experience,
[01:33:23] we are keeping the prisoners. Just
[01:33:27] previously they decided the other
[01:33:29] accommodation. So we are following the
[01:33:31] other compression that's all but we are
[01:33:33] not taking any measurements or any
[01:33:36] living space in taking living place or
[01:33:38] like that.
[01:33:40] So war coding is un inevitable.
[01:33:44] We have to face it. We have to face it
[01:33:46] and we have to live with that overing
[01:33:49] problem
[01:33:52] and the shortage of space is very much
[01:33:56] we are very fortunate at that in the
[01:33:58] central present district prisons we are
[01:34:00] unlocking the prison at 5:30 nearly 6
[01:34:02] and lock up at 6:00 a.m. 6 p.m. So in
[01:34:05] between that that period they are
[01:34:07] wandering in the open area that's why
[01:34:10] prisoners are not getting any infections
[01:34:11] or any diseases otherwise the subjects
[01:34:14] you take it take it granted in subjects
[01:34:17] subjects they will keep keep they will
[01:34:20] outside for morning one 1 hour for
[01:34:24] breakfast and natural calls lunch 1 hour
[01:34:27] and evening for dinner one three 3 hours
[01:34:29] only they will be outside so they will
[01:34:31] get contaminated diseases and all
[01:34:33] diseases and death row also So more in
[01:34:36] sub jails. Why? Because they are not
[01:34:39] allowed to wander in the outside because
[01:34:43] they they are very minim minimized
[01:34:44] security jails. Medium sec minimum
[01:34:47] security medium security they they can't
[01:34:50] keep the prisoners
[01:34:52] throughout the day like 5:30 to evening
[01:34:54] 5:30.
[01:34:55] So uh the space some somehow we are
[01:35:00] overcoming the problem by keeping the
[01:35:03] presence outside the present in the
[01:35:05] daytime.
[01:35:07] limited sources you all know nearly 30
[01:35:10] to 60%
[01:35:13] staff staff is staffer uh shortage
[01:35:18] security concerns are you know
[01:35:19] production as far as production we are
[01:35:22] very much producing prisoner through
[01:35:25] video in case EC only 99% we are
[01:35:29] producing prisoners through video case
[01:35:31] 99% only 1% just the s told that isra's
[01:35:37] were told that the difference between RP
[01:35:39] and UTS remand prisoners are only
[01:35:42] prisoners we are waiting for their
[01:35:44] adjournment but UT prisoners are after
[01:35:48] charge sheet filed they'll be treated as
[01:35:51] duty prisoners under trail it means they
[01:35:52] are in under trail so undertrails are
[01:35:56] less
[01:35:57] when compared with remand prisoners and
[01:36:00] also remand prisoners will that is in a
[01:36:02] floating population they will come and
[01:36:04] go they will come and
[01:36:06] only NDPS act m case and post act and
[01:36:09] some other persons
[01:36:12] um madam told that they don't doesn't
[01:36:15] want to go outside that's why even
[01:36:18] though they got the bail some persons
[01:36:20] are also there in winter
[01:36:23] asthma patients and these patients they
[01:36:25] come came for uh for six 3 months four
[01:36:28] months they will accept the crime and
[01:36:30] they go to the police station come to
[01:36:32] the jail and they will u Um they will be
[01:36:36] there in for this entire
[01:36:39] winter and they they will take the
[01:36:41] medicine they will take the medical date
[01:36:43] and they will accept the crime and
[01:36:46] afterwards 3 months, four months, 6
[01:36:48] months. S told that sir told that I
[01:36:53] completely
[01:36:54] um support accept his contention that
[01:37:00] sir very that is very very
[01:37:04] wrong
[01:37:07] they have to accept the crime even
[01:37:09] though he is innocent they have to
[01:37:11] accept plea bargaining is the totally
[01:37:15] failure thing in my opinion why because
[01:37:18] He was branded as a convict prisoner and
[01:37:20] afterwards then second time he will be
[01:37:22] decided as a second time or third he
[01:37:24] will be habitual prisoners even though
[01:37:26] he was innocent. He has to
[01:37:30] forcefully
[01:37:32] accept that he he done the crime and
[01:37:35] that is one of the reason for these
[01:37:37] things.
[01:37:39] Actually actually
[01:37:44] this is a problem of criminal justice
[01:37:46] system.
[01:37:48] presence first police judiciary and
[01:37:51] presence
[01:37:56] if the boundary lines and the SOP stand
[01:38:00] operating processes should be defined to
[01:38:03] the each of the organization if each of
[01:38:06] the institution
[01:38:08] pol what have to do by done by the
[01:38:10] police what what what should done by the
[01:38:12] judiciary and what should done by
[01:38:17] presence
[01:38:19] but they they con constituting commies
[01:38:22] UTR committee this committee that
[01:38:24] committee they will give the uh
[01:38:28] designations chairman so and so so but
[01:38:31] they don't give the timeline timeline or
[01:38:35] uh responsibilities or work this should
[01:38:39] this this should the this thing should
[01:38:40] be done in 3 months and time work frame.
[01:38:44] Um and also due to
[01:38:48] war coding is due to only long pendance
[01:38:51] of the case. Investigation officers are
[01:38:54] not attending for the trial
[01:38:58] and the judiciary also not insisting the
[01:39:00] investing officers for attending trial.
[01:39:03] They will when the someone's go gone to
[01:39:07] the IO they will told that CM program is
[01:39:10] there uh district some other program is
[01:39:13] there I am not able to come. So and also
[01:39:17] the next adjustment will be 14 days not
[01:39:20] on the 3 days 2 days not allowed that
[01:39:22] even though he was in 9 years
[01:39:24] incarceration prison but
[01:39:28] due to lack of witnesses
[01:39:32] the next date of hearing was after 14
[01:39:34] days after 14 days after 14 days
[01:39:36] sometimes it is 1 month also that's why
[01:39:41] um war coding is much more in presence
[01:39:45] I witnessed these all these things
[01:39:51] and also to reduce the war coding of
[01:39:54] prisoners transfer of prisoners should
[01:39:56] be in the unit heads authority. He knows
[01:40:00] very well where where in prison was war
[01:40:04] coding is not there. Where is where the
[01:40:06] prison is war coded? Judicial officers
[01:40:08] are very hesitated to give the transfer
[01:40:12] or address as they it is not our
[01:40:14] jurisdiction and do whatever you do but
[01:40:16] produce the president before me they are
[01:40:18] telling like that. So this authority if
[01:40:23] given to the at the institution or
[01:40:26] coding will be
[01:40:26] >> Thank you Barat. Thank you so much. May
[01:40:28] I now request uh Sadi Nikilana Gendran
[01:40:31] from superintendent from Tamil Nadu to
[01:40:34] make a presentation.
[01:40:36] >> Since Dr. Anita has covered more points
[01:40:39] of uh overcrow what are the challenges
[01:40:42] we are facing due to overcrowding uh
[01:40:46] I'll repeat it I think so
[01:40:49] in my way
[01:40:53] uh now I am talking about central prison
[01:40:55] to uh Chennai uh before that uh it's
[01:41:00] authorized accommodation was 1,250
[01:41:04] uh after that uh since the lockup has
[01:41:07] been increased we have constructed a new
[01:41:10] building and uh with the capacity of uh
[01:41:13] 750 prisoners now the authorized
[01:41:16] recommendation is 2,000 but the lockup
[01:41:18] is ex uh now 3,00 3,500
[01:41:23] so we are facing lot of challenges
[01:41:26] gate is always busy because uh
[01:41:29] approximately uh nearly 100 people 100
[01:41:33] prisoners are admitted and uh more than
[01:41:36] 100 to 150 prison 100 prisoners are uh
[01:41:39] going out of bail and uh 250 prisoners
[01:41:43] are sent to approximately 250 prisoners
[01:41:46] are sent to out court for uh their
[01:41:49] trial. So gate is always busy. So the
[01:41:52] jail staff or gates officer and uh staff
[01:41:56] are always under pressure and also um
[01:42:00] after lockup the prisoners those who are
[01:42:03] getting back from court also uh more
[01:42:06] than uh 400 500 to 600 police staff are
[01:42:11] waiting outside the gate and they are in
[01:42:14] insisting us please take our prisoners
[01:42:17] inside first. So, so we have headache
[01:42:20] and sometimes we receive call from uh
[01:42:23] DCs and ACS why you are keeping our
[01:42:26] person our staff long very long time
[01:42:29] they are asking us um so they are under
[01:42:32] pressure always and also we use
[01:42:35] executive staff for uh control room
[01:42:38] remission and also interview ebook
[01:42:42] ebooking and prison buser activities. So
[01:42:44] we are we have very less staff for
[01:42:47] security purpose. So we depute one staff
[01:42:51] one wer for one block with in which more
[01:42:54] than 500 to 600 prisoners are kept and
[01:42:58] two off one officer for two blocks. So
[01:43:01] that one wer he has to open all uh
[01:43:05] dormatory blocks uh for sending the
[01:43:08] prisoners for court mulakat all those
[01:43:11] things and also uh he has to distribute
[01:43:14] the meals for three times uh one uh yeah
[01:43:19] same water uh one so meals uh uh
[01:43:22] regarding meals one water has to provide
[01:43:25] one meal morning shift water uh for
[01:43:29] breakfast uh second shift water for
[01:43:31] lunch sorry morning uh water he will
[01:43:34] serve two two two two food uh 500 people
[01:43:38] 500 to 750 people
[01:43:41] so he he uh automatically he under
[01:43:45] pressure
[01:43:47] even though he's doing all this work if
[01:43:49] any word incidents happen like uh
[01:43:51] suicide escape means we will definitely
[01:43:55] take disciplinary actions against him
[01:43:57] and uh also we have to face human rights
[01:44:01] commission also and sometimes uh that
[01:44:05] person will uh give his own money as
[01:44:09] compensation also
[01:44:12] and the shortage of space uh already I
[01:44:15] said uh the prison uh the block it has
[01:44:19] only capacity of 200 prisoners but we uh
[01:44:24] keep more than 500 prisoners in that
[01:44:26] block so it is congested uh prisoners
[01:44:29] will always uh complaining as uh ma sir
[01:44:34] he will hit me while we are sleeping he
[01:44:36] will put my put his hand on me because
[01:44:40] due to congest they are not able to move
[01:44:43] freely also so it keeps them under
[01:44:46] pressure mentally also they keep them uh
[01:44:48] we keep them under pressure and also
[01:44:51] medicine uh quarterly in this prison uh
[01:44:55] we receive 1 lakh 50,000 rupees
[01:44:59] for medicine but we have uh 3,500 people
[01:45:03] are there. So that we have to spend um
[01:45:07] money for purchasing medicines. Through
[01:45:09] local purchase also we are spending
[01:45:11] money
[01:45:13] and hygiene and sanitation we are
[01:45:15] compromised because uh uh for one block
[01:45:19] we have uh 60 outer toilets but uh for
[01:45:24] one block uh inner and outer toilets are
[01:45:26] 60 but we have 750 prisoners. So that uh
[01:45:30] we are not uh we are compromised with
[01:45:33] this and then uh
[01:45:37] every Saturday our uh we are sending
[01:45:39] prisoners to the ill prisoners to the
[01:45:41] out hospital. We have three doctors and
[01:45:44] uh for further treatment uh we'll send
[01:45:46] the prisoners uh to the out hospital for
[01:45:49] for uh we depend on air armed reserve
[01:45:54] police escorts. If we request for uh
[01:45:57] escorts for 100 prisoners means we'll
[01:46:00] get only escorts for 20 to 30 prisoners.
[01:46:04] So we'll uh we'll face lot of problems.
[01:46:08] So in case of emergency we'll send the
[01:46:10] prisoners through our escorts. Uh if we
[01:46:14] send our uh staff to the out hospital
[01:46:17] also we are waiting for air people to
[01:46:21] hand over the prisoners. Sometimes uh it
[01:46:24] will take two to three days also. So
[01:46:26] that we have a shortage of uh staff uh
[01:46:29] for our security
[01:46:32] and then uh there is a problem in uh for
[01:46:36] cooking and distribution of uh meals
[01:46:38] also because we have limited uh source
[01:46:41] of vessels and uh uh distribution
[01:46:44] vessels. So we have problems uh it will
[01:46:47] take more time
[01:46:53] and also uh when at the time of uh after
[01:46:56] the admission we will send the uh
[01:47:01] intimation information to the closest
[01:47:03] relatives of the prisoner. Uh we'll
[01:47:07] mention we'll send message to through
[01:47:09] WhatsApp. will mention uh this
[01:47:11] prisoner's p number is so and so and you
[01:47:14] can contact uh this number to book for
[01:47:18] interview we have sent it uh we'll send
[01:47:20] it if that prisoner doesn't know the
[01:47:23] number of anyone we'll ask we'll get the
[01:47:26] number from the uh police station
[01:47:29] concern police station and we'll inform
[01:47:31] the uh closest relative of that prisoner
[01:47:34] so uh there is no issue uh about uh No
[01:47:39] prisoners can tell that um our uh family
[01:47:43] members doesn't know uh that I am here.
[01:47:46] So that there is no problem
[01:47:50] and transferring of the madam said that
[01:47:54] uh if we are a overcrowder we can uh uh
[01:47:59] we can refuse and tell the magistrates
[01:48:02] to keep the prisoner in the other uh
[01:48:05] station other prisons. But uh
[01:48:09] magistrates they don't send the
[01:48:11] prisoners uh to the other prison because
[01:48:16] they can I think uh uh they can uh have
[01:48:19] powers to keep the prisoner within the
[01:48:21] jurisdiction so that uh they are not
[01:48:23] able to give orders for keeping the
[01:48:26] prison that's why we are facing problems
[01:48:29] and u uh before that I told no uh we
[01:48:33] have prisoners uh NDP's prisoners NDP
[01:48:35] cases prisoners are there uh
[01:48:38] incarcerated for more years and very few
[01:48:41] cases uh three or two cases they in my
[01:48:44] prison now I am working at SPW Chennai
[01:48:48] in my prison in our prison uh only three
[01:48:51] cases were there uh two prisoners were
[01:48:55] uh under uh remand for 9 years they
[01:48:58] didn't get bait and uh 15 days or 20
[01:49:02] days back only they they they were
[01:49:04] convicted and one prisoner he she didn't
[01:49:07] also get bail for 6 years because she
[01:49:09] killed her own children so that they
[01:49:12] didn't give her bail. Uh after six years
[01:49:14] only she was convicted and one more
[01:49:17] prisoner she was a Bangladesh prisoner.
[01:49:20] Uh she was also have been there 7 years
[01:49:23] after that she was convicted for uh 10
[01:49:26] years. So that very few cases uh are
[01:49:29] there. Thank you very much.
[01:49:32] >> Thank you uh Miss Nikolana Kendra and
[01:49:35] before I call upon uh Mr. Mr. Wingert
[01:49:37] ready. I'm really surprised the way in
[01:49:40] which uh the challenges the ground
[01:49:43] realities are you know detailed to us.
[01:49:46] Uh whenever we visit North Indian
[01:49:48] prisons like you know visiting prisons
[01:49:50] is part of our work. We always have a
[01:49:53] feeling that uh the prisons in South
[01:49:55] India is far better. Of course that is
[01:49:58] true also. uh and when we visit north
[01:50:01] Indian prisons this overcrowding it'll
[01:50:02] be visible the it is evident the moment
[01:50:06] you enter the prison you'd be able to uh
[01:50:08] see that uh and here it is not the case
[01:50:12] you know like we are entirely different
[01:50:14] but now when you are detailing all these
[01:50:16] things it's really surprising that we
[01:50:18] always feel that you have pressure we
[01:50:20] know the other pressure you you face but
[01:50:22] amidst all these pressures you are also
[01:50:25] you know working and treating us
[01:50:27] whenever we come to your prison you talk
[01:50:29] to us. You talk to us very nicely.
[01:50:32] You know like though these uh problems
[01:50:36] the reality ground reality which you
[01:50:37] have mentioned all the three speakers
[01:50:40] though it looks similar but it varies
[01:50:43] state to state it it may look yeah
[01:50:45] prison to prison it varies and uh now we
[01:50:48] have listened to the young officers uh
[01:50:50] we have the experienced officer Mr.
[01:50:52] Wenger ready uh we'll listen to him and
[01:50:55] then I'll finally wrap up. I'll wrapping
[01:50:56] up I have a few points to add.
[01:50:59] Thank you. Recording our presence
[01:51:02] actually
[01:51:04] they have covered all the
[01:51:07] topic. So
[01:51:10] I will tell
[01:51:13] just s told that other recommendation
[01:51:16] actually actual author's recommendation
[01:51:18] as per the NHRC norms we are not
[01:51:21] following the NHRC norms. If we follow
[01:51:23] the NHR norms the war coding will be
[01:51:25] 2,000%. Any prison, any prison, living
[01:51:29] conditions, living space, living space
[01:51:31] or
[01:51:33] yes, as per the model prison manual,
[01:51:35] >> any prison, take it, take it for
[01:51:37] granted, any prison, it will 2,000 to
[01:51:39] 5,000%
[01:51:41] over coding.
[01:51:44] In my experience,
[01:51:47] we are keeping the prisoners just
[01:51:52] previously they decided the other
[01:51:54] accommodation. So we are following the
[01:51:56] other compression that's all but we are
[01:51:58] not taking any measurements or any
[01:52:01] living space in taking living place or
[01:52:03] like that.
[01:52:05] So war coding is un inevitable we have
[01:52:09] to face it. We have to face it and we
[01:52:11] have to live with that overing problem
[01:52:17] and the shortage of space is very much
[01:52:20] we are very fortunate that in central
[01:52:23] prison district presence we are
[01:52:25] unlocking the presence in 5:30 nearly 6
[01:52:27] and lock up at 6:00 a.m. 6 p.m. So in
[01:52:30] between that that period they are
[01:52:32] wandering in the open area that's why
[01:52:34] prisoners are not getting any infections
[01:52:36] or any diseases otherwise the subjects
[01:52:39] you take it take it granted in subj
[01:52:43] keep they will outside for morning one
[01:52:46] one hour for breakfast and natural calls
[01:52:51] lunch 1 hour and evening for dinner one
[01:52:53] three 3 hours only they will be outside
[01:52:55] so they will get the contaminated
[01:52:57] diseases and all diseases and death row
[01:52:59] also So more in sub jails. Why? Because
[01:53:03] they are not allowed to wander in the
[01:53:06] outside because they are very minimum
[01:53:09] minimized security jails. Medium minimum
[01:53:12] security medium security they they can't
[01:53:14] keep the prisoners
[01:53:16] throughout the day like 5:30 to evening
[01:53:18] 5:30.
[01:53:20] So uh the space some somehow we are
[01:53:25] overcoming the problem by keeping the
[01:53:28] presence outside the present in the
[01:53:30] daytime
[01:53:32] a limited sources you all know nearly 30
[01:53:35] to 60%
[01:53:38] staff staff is staff are uh shortage
[01:53:43] security concerns are you know
[01:53:44] production as far as production we are
[01:53:47] very much producing the prisoner through
[01:53:50] video case EC only 99% we are producing
[01:53:54] presence through video case 99% only 1%
[01:53:58] just the s told that is g told that the
[01:54:03] difference between RP and utis remand
[01:54:06] prisoners are only prisoners we are
[01:54:08] waiting for their adjournment but duty
[01:54:10] prisons are after charge sheet filed
[01:54:14] they'll be treated as duty prisoners
[01:54:16] under trial prison it means they are in
[01:54:18] under trial So undertrails are less
[01:54:22] when compared with remain prisoners and
[01:54:25] also remain prisoners will that is in a
[01:54:27] floating population they will come and
[01:54:29] go they will come and go only NDPS act
[01:54:32] murder case and post act and some other
[01:54:35] persons
[01:54:37] um madam told that they don't doesn't
[01:54:40] want to go outside that's why even
[01:54:42] though they got the bail some persons
[01:54:45] are also there in winter
[01:54:48] asthma patients And these patients they
[01:54:50] came came for uh for 6 3 months or four
[01:54:53] months they will accept the crime and
[01:54:55] they go to the police station come to
[01:54:56] the jail and they will um they will be
[01:55:00] there in for this entire
[01:55:04] winter and they they will take the
[01:55:06] medicine they will take the medical date
[01:55:08] and they will accept the crime and
[01:55:11] afterwards 3 months four months 6 months
[01:55:14] sir told that sir told that I completely
[01:55:19] um support accept his contention that
[01:55:25] sir very that is very very
[01:55:29] wrong
[01:55:32] they have to accept the crime even
[01:55:34] though he is innocent they have to
[01:55:36] accept plea bargaining is the totally
[01:55:40] failure thing in my opinion why because
[01:55:43] he was branded as a convict prisoner and
[01:55:45] afterwards then second time he will be
[01:55:47] decided as a second time he will present
[01:55:49] habitual prison even though he was
[01:55:51] innocent. He has to
[01:55:55] force
[01:55:56] accept that he he done the crime and
[01:56:00] that is one of the reason for these
[01:56:02] things.
[01:56:04] Actually actually
[01:56:09] this is the problem of criminal justice
[01:56:10] system.
[01:56:13] Prisons first police judiciary and
[01:56:16] prisons.
[01:56:21] If the boundary lines and the SOP stand
[01:56:25] operating processes should be defined to
[01:56:28] the each of the organization if each of
[01:56:30] the institution
[01:56:32] pol what have to do by done by the
[01:56:35] police what what what should done by the
[01:56:37] judiciary and what should done by the
[01:56:42] prisons
[01:56:43] but they they constituting committees
[01:56:47] UTR committee this committee that
[01:56:49] committee they will give the uh
[01:56:53] designations, chairman, so and so so but
[01:56:55] they don't give the timeline timeline or
[01:57:00] uh responsibilities or work. This should
[01:57:03] this should the this thing should be
[01:57:05] done in 3 months or time work frame. Um
[01:57:10] and also um due to
[01:57:13] war coding is due to only long pendance
[01:57:16] of the case. Investigating officers are
[01:57:19] not attending for the trial
[01:57:23] and judicial also not insisting the
[01:57:25] investing officers for attending the
[01:57:27] trial. They will when the someone's go
[01:57:32] gone to the IO they will told that CM
[01:57:35] program is there uh district some other
[01:57:38] program is there I am not able to come.
[01:57:40] So and also the next judgment will be 14
[01:57:44] days not on the 3 days 2 days not like
[01:57:46] that even though he was in 9 years
[01:57:49] incarceration prison but
[01:57:53] due to lack of witnesses
[01:57:56] the next date of hearing was after 14
[01:57:58] days after 14 days after 14 days
[01:58:01] sometimes it is 1 month also that's why
[01:58:05] um war coding is much more in presence
[01:58:10] I witnessed these all these things
[01:58:16] and also to reduce the war coding of
[01:58:19] prisoners. Transfer of prisoners should
[01:58:21] be in the unit heads authority. He knows
[01:58:25] very well where where in prison was war
[01:58:29] coding is not there. Where is where the
[01:58:31] president war coded? Judicial officers
[01:58:33] are very hesitated to give the transfer
[01:58:37] or address as they it is not our
[01:58:38] jurisdiction and do whatever you do but
[01:58:41] produce the president before me. They
[01:58:42] are telling like that. So this authority
[01:58:47] if given to the at the institution or
[01:58:50] coding will be
[01:58:53] >> no sir can't be okay sir but under
[01:58:56] trials it was not given under trials are
[01:58:58] subject to the we have to take the
[01:59:00] ratification of the court that is the
[01:59:02] problem sir
[01:59:07] >> okay sir but everybody everywhere they
[01:59:09] are not
[01:59:11] >> everywhere they are not
[01:59:14] No sir under 12 sick
[01:59:17] only only dangerous only can dangerous
[01:59:20] only can but waring cannot make
[01:59:23] problems. Yes, they they can they can
[01:59:27] but over
[01:59:29] >> sir you can't convince them saying that
[01:59:32] it is overcrowding
[01:59:39] as a problem.
[01:59:40] >> Yes sir.
[01:59:47] >> Time frame should be gi given to the
[01:59:49] trial.
[01:59:50] The this thing this case should be trial
[01:59:52] in between 3 months or 4 months 6 months
[01:59:54] or the time frame should be given to the
[01:59:57] judiciary. Judiciary.
[02:00:01] >> Definitely definitely that then then
[02:00:03] only then only and you may thought me as
[02:00:06] a terrorist but one thing one thing one
[02:00:09] thing is one thing is
[02:00:11] the entire criminal justice system.
[02:00:15] Police, judiciary and prison should be
[02:00:17] responsible for if a prisoner acquitted
[02:00:21] after a long incarceration.
[02:00:24] Compensation should be given by these
[02:00:25] these three three fellows.
[02:00:29] >> No
[02:00:31] the three three fellows then only the
[02:00:33] investigation officer s will dare not
[02:00:36] dare enough to put wrong cases. Wrong
[02:00:39] cases. Wrong cases.
[02:00:42] >> Yes. They take the investigation.
[02:00:43] >> Yes. They will take the investigation
[02:00:45] properly and the foots properly. If
[02:00:48] there is any ambiguity they will cut
[02:00:51] down the F and also we should give
[02:00:56] insurance to the prisoner. Whoever
[02:00:59] whoever
[02:01:01] got acquitted by the judiciary after
[02:01:04] long time even second day they should be
[02:01:07] given compensation and insurance for
[02:01:10] their incarceration in prison and
[02:01:12] they're suffering from suffering
[02:01:14] mentally physically in prison.
[02:01:17] Last week I I
[02:01:19] read in the newspaper that London some
[02:01:23] prisoners are equited after 17 years per
[02:01:26] day $140
[02:01:28] per day $140 they gave nearly 70,000
[02:01:33] in Indian currency it was nearly 80
[02:01:36] crores for each one they have given the
[02:01:40] given as compensation
[02:01:43] >> yes yes no not like that madam Innocence
[02:01:47] I am I am I'm talking for the innocence
[02:01:49] not for the convicted prisoners not for
[02:01:51] the convicted prisoners in innocent
[02:01:53] prisoners I I witnessed so many cases
[02:01:58] that s was just monetically
[02:02:02] um just take it as granted take him f
[02:02:06] put him in jail and forget even judicial
[02:02:08] also they will forget so many times I I
[02:02:12] will I have written so many letters to
[02:02:15] the judicial police and all the things
[02:02:18] but they just they take it to the letter
[02:02:20] and keep it in the dust bin.
[02:02:24] So many times if these things are happen
[02:02:28] if if these things are coming into
[02:02:30] picture they will shiver like anything
[02:02:33] shiver like anything the cases will be
[02:02:35] reduced over coding will be reduced it
[02:02:38] is my opinion sir
[02:02:40] remaining all the things are shortage
[02:02:42] and and all these things present over
[02:02:45] shortage of space limited resources
[02:02:48] security concerns production all these
[02:02:50] things are covered by my lands
[02:02:53] thank Thank you very much for this
[02:02:54] opportunity.
[02:02:56] >> Thank you Wingard Digaru. That's why I
[02:02:59] said you are an experienced officer. Now
[02:03:01] we see a difference between the other
[02:03:02] speakers and your presentation.
[02:03:07] Thank you. Thank you so much. uh from uh
[02:03:09] the presentation of all the speakers uh
[02:03:12] we understand uh that uh there are real
[02:03:15] problems existing in in in southern
[02:03:18] states also though we are uh not there
[02:03:21] in the over crowded list there are also
[02:03:24] problems here mainly the the problems
[02:03:27] which were focused by all the speakers
[02:03:29] were like uh difficulties in segregation
[02:03:32] and classification that is one of the
[02:03:33] core functionings of any prison system
[02:03:36] uh emergency medical response ES and
[02:03:38] Barat was telling medical supply uh to
[02:03:41] the prisoners Mahame Nigla was also
[02:03:43] telling and to deal with prisoners who
[02:03:46] are the special category prisoners you
[02:03:48] know aged prisoners mentally
[02:03:51] such prisoners and food supply food and
[02:03:53] supply chain management you know it's
[02:03:55] it's really a major problem and uh lack
[02:03:58] of access to legal aid is one of the
[02:04:01] major issues which we face privacy and
[02:04:04] conf confidentiality issues and you were
[02:04:07] saying Even you know they are not able
[02:04:09] to talk to their yes they are advocates
[02:04:11] also. Uh then the security problems uh
[02:04:15] one an important aspect of uh uh prison
[02:04:19] maintenance to maintain law and order in
[02:04:21] the prisons is uh one important uh
[02:04:24] issues is like uh contact with outside
[02:04:28] world. When you have overcrowding in the
[02:04:31] prisons you are not able to properly
[02:04:32] organize the interviews. No that is one
[02:04:35] of it's a very big challenge like if
[02:04:37] interviews are not properly organized if
[02:04:39] the contact with outside world is not
[02:04:41] properly done then naturally you won't
[02:04:44] be able to maintain order in the prison
[02:04:46] so it is really one of the biggest
[02:04:48] challenges uh which we face uh in the
[02:04:50] prisons due to overcrowding sanitation
[02:04:53] and hygiening hygiene is also uh highly
[02:04:56] compromised when prison is overcrowded
[02:04:59] uh and as she said the compensation to
[02:05:02] be paid by the criminal justice is you
[02:05:05] know insurance also like these are all
[02:05:07] the major challenges. Of course you have
[02:05:08] given us some solution and these are all
[02:05:10] the solutions you know like to solve a a
[02:05:13] problem um it is it is always you know
[02:05:16] you know solutions do not always require
[02:05:19] big infrastructure it only requires some
[02:05:23] ideas innovative ideas with that we can
[02:05:25] we can solve many of our problems as we
[02:05:29] know Talangana is doing better in VCs
[02:05:32] sorry Andra is doing better in VCs that
[02:05:34] you know they are the first state in the
[02:05:36] entire country to use uh maximum
[02:05:39] utilization of use VCs done uh in
[02:05:42] Telangana Andhra Pradesh Telangana is
[02:05:44] having very good medical facilities that
[02:05:46] is what the IGR reports Tamil Nadu is
[02:05:49] underutilizing open prisons though we
[02:05:51] have two big open prisons Tamil Nadu is
[02:05:54] underutilizing open prisons if these
[02:05:56] channels sorry if these things are
[02:05:57] opened up you know the it's it it
[02:06:00] doesn't require big infrastructure we
[02:06:01] have two big open prisons we have to
[02:06:03] only you know make slight changes in our
[02:06:05] procedures and send prison prisoners.
[02:06:07] Thereby even from this uh number of
[02:06:10] prisoners we can further reduce our
[02:06:13] prison population. So I think uh this
[02:06:15] session um by these four uh prison
[02:06:19] officers uh uh you know is really u
[02:06:23] useful um and I wish I mean DG should
[02:06:28] have attended this session you know like
[02:06:30] it could have given him more inputs on
[02:06:32] the ground realities uh uh what we face
[02:06:35] in the presence. Uh really thankful to
[02:06:38] all of you. We have opened up uh a new
[02:06:41] uh discussion. I think this will
[02:06:43] continue for tomorrow also. Uh you'll
[02:06:46] all think uh tonight uh so that we can
[02:06:49] deliberate more on uh these issues
[02:06:51] tomorrow. So with this I have uh four
[02:06:56] questions uh to the prison officers and
[02:06:59] uh to all the participants. Maybe if you
[02:07:02] are uh if you are able to think it over
[02:07:04] tonight and tomorrow if you are able to
[02:07:06] discuss um uh answers uh this can be our
[02:07:11] uh you know part of the recommendations
[02:07:14] of this consultation also like for the
[02:07:16] past first question uh Dr. Anita has
[02:07:19] already given some answers. Um it is
[02:07:23] very simple. Uh what is one practical
[02:07:26] step your state has taken recently
[02:07:31] that has helped reduce overcrowding
[02:07:34] inside prisons
[02:07:36] whether in living space medical care or
[02:07:40] court productions. I can also share
[02:07:42] these questions in the WhatsApp group.
[02:07:44] I'm just reading out the questions. The
[02:07:47] sec for which you were saying about Kal
[02:07:50] Kal Burki's prisons this you know body
[02:07:52] warrants thing of course it is the
[02:07:53] intervention of the high court it is one
[02:07:55] step that they have implemented this can
[02:07:58] be you know replicated in other states
[02:08:00] also if it is made as a recommendation
[02:08:02] and the second one is how are video
[02:08:05] conferencing facilities and undertrail
[02:08:08] review committees helping to reduce the
[02:08:11] need to produce prisoners in court. What
[02:08:15] challenges do you still face in using
[02:08:18] them? What challenges do you still face
[02:08:22] >> if it is contributing? What challenges
[02:08:24] you still face in using them? And the
[02:08:27] third question is
[02:08:30] uh open prisons are not fully utilized
[02:08:32] in many states. What simple policy or
[02:08:36] procedural change would help you
[02:08:39] transfer more eligible prisoners to open
[02:08:42] prisons safely?
[02:08:48] No, that we'll discuss. I mean like
[02:08:51] >> yeah.
[02:08:53] >> Fourth one. Since medical and health
[02:08:56] staff are limited, what small but
[02:08:59] effective measures have improved the
[02:09:02] health and well-being of prisoners in
[02:09:04] your state? Or what small step can be
[02:09:08] taken to improve the mental and physical
[02:09:11] health of our prisoners?
[02:09:14] Is that okay? Agreed. Feel sensible.
[02:09:17] >> Yes sir.
[02:09:18] >> And I think we can have Bula tomorrow if
[02:09:21] we if we get some answers we can make
[02:09:24] out.
[02:09:26] >> This session has been incredibly useful
[02:09:29] and um in terms of just outlining
[02:09:31] because that's what I kept saying when I
[02:09:33] was planning this consultation was um
[02:09:36] these ground realities don't get
[02:09:38] reported. They're not documented.
[02:09:40] They're not reported. Nobody talks about
[02:09:42] it. People say they will talk about the
[02:09:44] problem oh prisoners got diseases
[02:09:47] prisoners prisoners but how it difficult
[02:09:49] it is for the staff to manage a space is
[02:09:52] not really documented so I'm really glad
[02:09:54] that all of you have spoken about it
[02:09:55] candidly um and also as sir said that
[02:09:58] you know we sometimes you know we were
[02:10:00] always since morning we were saying oh
[02:10:02] southern states are not overcrowded
[02:10:03] southern states are not overcrowded and
[02:10:05] suddenly you have these experiences
[02:10:06] which kind of indicate that no they are
[02:10:08] equally overcrowded and uh they it is
[02:10:11] equally difficult
[02:10:12] um to maintain. So thank you everyone. I
[02:10:15] just wanted to make that comment and I
[02:10:17] think tomorrow we can we'll explore what
[02:10:19] has been done already. So Kalaburi seems
[02:10:21] to be a good example of some change and
[02:10:23] I know Tamil Nadu has done a lot of uh
[02:10:25] work though ma'am's jail is still
[02:10:27] overcrowded
[02:10:29] and uh but that's what I wanted to say
[02:10:31] for today is uh we're leaving on a good
[02:10:34] note in a sense that we have I think all
[02:10:36] of us have learned a lot uh today in
[02:10:38] terms of the practical realities uh and
[02:10:41] I hope tomorrow we'll be more hopeful
[02:10:43] about what we can do and I do want to
[02:10:46] commend the thoughts that sir has shared
[02:10:48] because I think some of them are really
[02:10:49] valuable uh and actionable as well. So
[02:10:53] tomorrow maybe some of the things we can
[02:10:55] talk about. So I was also thinking on
[02:10:56] the lines that uh like you said there
[02:10:58] should be a SOP on um how the
[02:11:02] coordination should be between the
[02:11:04] pillars of the justice system also
[02:11:07] something that the prison administrators
[02:11:08] can come together and prepare something
[02:11:11] can help but it could be the collective
[02:11:13] knowledge of this group that comes out
[02:11:16] with something like an SOP which you
[02:11:18] know then it it will always help the
[02:11:20] younger because younger people who are
[02:11:22] coming into this um when they become
[02:11:24] some superintendence because you started
[02:11:26] off by saying that you know their varied
[02:11:29] ages of experience so I'm sure you know
[02:11:31] what sir has to inform and what ma'am
[02:11:33] has to it it helps the generations down
[02:11:35] the line on what it is so that's my
[02:11:38] comment for today
[02:11:40] >> okay with this we'll wind up uh this
[02:11:42] technical session I profusely thank all
[02:11:45] the speakers and I thank uh JR for
[02:11:48] having given us this opportunity to meet
[02:11:50] and talk to all our offices it is really
[02:11:53] uh a brainstorming coming session uh
[02:11:56] we'll continue tomorrow and I think
[02:11:57] tomorrow when we leave uh this hotel
[02:12:00] we'll go with lot of bundles of you know
[02:12:03] information and knowledge and uh thank
[02:12:06] you
[02:12:07] >> thank you thank you so much Madima thank
[02:12:10] you call for the