# Prince Andrew gives up his royal titles | Sky News coverage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IljU4-zqEwU

[00:02] Breaking news at 7:00 and Prince Andrew has announced that he is relinquishing his royal titles.
[00:07] He says accusations about him have become a distraction from the royal family.
[00:13] In a statement, Prince Andrew wrote, "In discussion with the king and my immediate and wider family, we have concluded, "The continued accusations about me distract from the work of his majesty and the royal family.
[00:27] I have decided, as I always have, to put my duty to my family and country first.
[00:37] I stand by my decision five years ago to stand back from public life.
[00:43] With his majesty's agreement, we feel I must now go a step further.
[00:45] I will therefore no longer use my title or the honors which have been conferred upon me.
[00:51] As I have said previously, I vigorously deny the accusations against me.
[00:57] That statement coming into us from
[01:03] Prince Andrew.
[01:06] Let's go straight to our royal correspondent Rianan Mills who joins us now.
[01:09] Rian, and what else do we know about this decision?
[01:19] Prince Andrew giving up his titles um or being forced to give up his titles.
[01:25] Um but but this is quite an extraordinary move and I think it shows that actually things had gone too far.
[01:29] Prince Andrew and allegations about him and Virginia Frey were continuing to be too much of a distraction for the royal family.
[01:40] Um a few more details that I can tell you.
[01:43] Um this decision um basically was taken in conjunction with the king.
[01:47] Yes, it was the prince's decision but with very close consultation with the king involved.
[01:53] Um and we understand that the king is glad of this outcome.
[01:56] um this change comes into effect immediately.
[01:59] So from this moment, he no longer holds
[02:04] those titles.
[02:08] Um the decision was taken in recognition of the fact that the prince's personal issues have continued to be um what has been described as an unwelcome distraction from the wider work of the royal family.
[02:18] And we've seen that consistently, I think, over well, I first started reporting on this around 10 years ago.
[02:25] And it really has kind of punctuated and been there in the background.
[02:27] Um, ever since um, of course there there was continuing discussions about what could the king do in terms of of Prince Andrew and one thing that people have pointed to is the fact that he continues to live on the Windsor Estate at Royal Lodge.
[02:41] We understand that he will continue to to live there.
[02:44] He has got a private teny agreement with the Crown Estate, so we don't believe that that will change.
[02:48] Um, is he still a duke?
[02:51] No.
[02:54] All his titles, including the Duke of York, will not be used anymore.
[02:56] However, he will still be known as Prince Andrew because he remains the son of Queen Elizabeth II.
[03:01] Um, so in accordance with the letters patents um
[03:07] that were updated by Queen Elizabeth the second in 2012, he will still stay as as prince.
[03:11] Um, the title of HR is already inactive.
[03:16] That was that was taken away some time ago.
[03:18] What does this mean for other members of his family?
[03:20] So, for example, the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson.
[03:22] Um for many years we're told that in a professional capacity she hasn't really used that that Duchess of York title.
[03:27] Um but she will no longer be known at all as the Duchess of York.
[03:30] Um Princess Beatatrice and Princess Eujenei um their position is as princesses is entirely unaffected by this in terms of Prince Andrew being a counselor of state.
[03:33] Now, a council of the state act on behalf of the king in um a limited defined capacity um if they have to step in on behalf of the king.
[03:46] It's already been made clear though in the past that non- workinging members of the royal family.
[03:50] So, for example, Prince Andrew, Prince Harry don't act as um counselors of state.
[03:58] Um in terms of of course we
[04:10] have increasingly seen Prince Andrew appear at some family occasions, most recently um the funeral for the Duchess of Kent.
[04:17] Um what will happen for other family occasions we're not sure um but he isn't going to attend royal family Christmas celebrations um so yeah just to confirm in the last well few minutes we have received that statement which in Prince Andrew's own words he says I stand by my decision five years ago to stand back from public life and with his majesty's agreement we feel I must now go a step further I'll therefore no longer use my title or the honors which been conferred upon me.
[04:48] But what he does very clearly say in that statement as we've continued to hear those allegations against him, he says, "I vigorously deny the accusations against me."
[05:04] Rian, you hinted at this at the beginning, but just remind us what the main issues are around Prince Andrew's
[05:10] personal life that may have led to this decision.
[05:14] So it was it was 10 years ago that we first started reporting on the name of Virginia Dupra who made those allegations um sexual abuse allegations against uh Prince Andrew.
[05:28] Of course we then fast forward to 2019 when he gave that Newsight interview when he vehemently denied those allegations against him.
[05:38] Of course, there has of course been the spectre of Jeffrey Epstein that's continued to to hang over him as well.
[05:45] Only in in the last week, uh, a newspaper reported on an email that was sent to Jeffrey Epstein from Prince Andrew.
[05:54] Um, despite it being a time in which Prince Andrew said that he had cut ties with the convicted pedophile.
[06:02] And also I think with that News Night interview, Prince Andrew always refused to apologize for being friends with Jeffrey Epstein and that continued to also hang over him.
[06:10] Um, as
[06:14] Well, also this week on Tuesday, we're due to see published a book by Virginia Duprey.
[06:20] Um, she took her own life uh in the last year and and yet her book is still going to be released and so we wait to see exactly what is likely to come out um of that book.
[06:33] So, it has been a very unwelcome distraction for the royal family that has continued to to hang over them.
[06:38] Of course, also in recent weeks, we've had Sarah Ferguson again also being being pulled into to the situation as well with an email that she sent to Jeffrey Epstein.
[06:47] It seemed apologizing to him, although she at the time and her advisers said it was because she was being um blackmailed by him.
[06:56] Um, but yeah, it is still extraordinary that it's come to a stage where actually Prince Andrew has has now in some ways fallen on his sword and I think probably heavily leaned on by the king has decided that he would give up those final vestigages if you like um of
[07:15] of those royal titles um which we've consistently seen being chipped away uh over over recent years.
[07:24] Marian and in the statement that we've received by Prince Andrew, he says that he's concluded the continued accusations about me distract from the work of his majesty and the royal family and that's what led to his decision.
[07:37] Just how big were these distractions to to the work of the royal family?
[07:45] I think the problem is for example this week coming up we have the king is going to pray alongside the pope for the very first time since the reformation for 500 years.
[07:56] That is going to be a huge historic moment.
[07:58] And yet we also knew that the book by the junior dupra was going to be released on Tuesday.
[08:02] So this was just one example of how members of the royal family would have really big occasions coming up and then we would have a story about Virginia Duprey or Jeffrey Epstein would appear in the newspapers.
[08:15] Also remember around this
[08:17] time last year there were there were the stories about Prince Andrew and his links um with the alleged Chinese spy Yang Tang Bo as well.
[08:26] And and so for the royal family, despite the fact that the way they work is to kind of put the blinkers on and and keep going consistently within the newspapers, people were reporting on Prince Andrew and that simply was not going away.
[08:41] Now, the fact that he's no longer going to be Duke of York, the fact that he's no longer going to be a member of the Order of the Garter, is that really going to change things?
[08:48] Is that going to stop people talking about these stories?
[08:53] I doubt it.
[08:53] Um but I think at least it feels like everything that has been done in terms of separating him off from I suppose the privileges and the titles of that that royal life um has now been done and actually his brother the king has not had to make that final decision.
[09:14] Prince Andrew has made that final decision, but I think the king has, I
[09:18] would say, heavily leaned on him.
[09:20] And we also understand that Prince William has been um there have been discussions with Prince William about this.
[09:24] There have been discussions with other members of the royal family about this.
[09:26] You have to remember Queen Camila is heavily invested in her work around domestic violence, sexual abuse.
[09:33] So, you wonder how much she may have also been leaning on the king and saying, "Look, this is not right.
[09:40] we cannot have these accusations against the member of the royal family um being just looked over and and not responded to.
[09:47] Um so the conversations I suspect within the royal family would have been very complex.
[09:52] Um also at the Duchess of Kent's funeral very recently, there were some very embarrassing pictures really of Prince Andrew trying to talk to to Prince William and Prince William it seemed ignoring him.
[10:06] So it it's been very difficult for the royal family and I think they will be hoping that that now that he has decided to relinquish those titles this can in some ways draw a line
[10:19] under under those questions about what more can the royal family do about the problem that is Prince Andrew and Rian we have of course heard that he is no longer a duke but still a prince.
[10:33] but how does this affect his closest family members saw for his do daughters and of course uh Sarah Ferguson.
[10:42] You do have to feel for for his daughters.
[10:44] Um it must be be so difficult for them whenever these stories emerge.
[10:51] An awful distraction for them.
[10:53] He is still ultimately their father.
[10:57] Um in terms of what it means for their titles, they will still be princesses.
[11:02] They are really unaffected.
[11:04] Um I mentioned earlier that of course there's been the recent story about Sarah Ferguson, the Duchess of York, her links um with with Jeffrey Epstein.
[11:11] Um we understand that she has not we're told used the Duchess of York title in a professional capacity.
[11:20] um for some time and and she will no longer use that that Duchess of York title at all um anymore.
[11:29] So yeah, so it is a huge announcement this evening.
[11:32] Um, but I think the royal family will be hoping that at least it it shows that that action has been has been taken.
[11:39] And I think what is particularly telling is that yes, we've had a statement from Prince Andrew, the first statement we've had from him in many years.
[11:51] Um, but also the guidance that we're getting is it may have been the prince's decision, but it was taken in very close consultation with the king.
[11:58] And this is particularly telling.
[12:00] His majesty is glad of this outcome.
[12:05] And Brianna, how surprising is is this statement and had people been expecting the royal family to distance themselves even further from Prince Andrew?
[12:18] It's always been really interesting when we have seen um Prince Andrew appearing
[12:22] at um at family occasions because it's shown that he's still been part of that family unit.
[12:27] he hasn't entirely been cast out into the cold.
[12:29] Um we've seen him on numerous occasions um walking to church at Sandringham.
[12:35] Um and and and that in a way has been has been quite um especially when we've heard stories about him and the Chinese spy or Jeffrey Epstein, it it's been quite striking to see him still there, still there with um with members of his family.
[12:52] Um, but I think for them they'll be hoping that they can now they can now move on a little bit from this.
[12:57] Um, yeah, we we wait to see, but I I think the stories are still so so salacious.
[13:04] We still have Virginia Du Fray um her book due out um on Tuesday.
[13:09] Um, of course, she she took her own life um some time ago.
[13:13] Um, but we still see her book um coming out soon.
[13:20] The prince had been uh scandalprone for
[13:24] quite a while, but would you say it's fair to say that it was the links to Jeffrey Epstein that proved to be the most damaging to his reputation and to his links to the royal family?
[13:36] They they've certainly been the the longest running um scandal really when it came to to Prince Andrew.
[13:42] O over many years he was um a figure of fun, wasn't he?
[13:47] Air Miles Andy um kind of splitting image puppets of him.
[13:50] Um but also don't forget when he came back from the Falklands really seen as as a a forces sweetheart.
[13:58] Um so but I think Jeffrey Epstein was was the issue that continued to to hang over him.
[14:07] And what was always interesting is in that Newsight interview he he never apologized.
[14:11] He never apologized for being friends with Jeffrey Epstein.
[14:13] He never said any kind of apology um for the victims, but ultimately he today vehemently denies any of these allegations against him.
[14:23] Um and in some
[14:27] ways you do wonder whether that is because what may come out in the book um that's due to be released on Tuesday,
[14:33] but also because regularly over the last few weeks the Sunday newspapers have had stories about him and Epstein, about the Duchess of York and Jeffrey Epstein.
[14:42] Um it just has not gone away.
[14:47] Brianna Mills, our royal correspondent for the moment.
[14:50] Riannan, thank you.
[14:54] And just a reminder of our breaking news story that Prince Andrew will relinquish his titles.
[15:02] Let me read a statement that's coming to us from him.
[15:05] The statement reads, "In discussion with the king and my immediate and wider family, we have concluded the continued accusations about me distract from the work of his majesty and the royal family.
[15:21] I have decided, as I always have, to put my duty to my family and
[15:27] country first.
[15:29] I stand by my decision five years ago to stand back from public life.
[15:35] With his majesty's agreement, we feel I must now go a step further.
[15:38] I will therefore no longer use my title or the honors which have been conferred upon me.
[15:46] As I have said previously, I vigorously deny the accusations against me.
[15:53] That statement coming into us from Prince Andrew.
[15:55] And now we can speak to Jack Royston, chief royal correspondent at Newsweek.
[16:01] Jack Rristston, thank you so much for joining us.
[16:03] First of all, your reaction to this news.
[16:05] Well, I think actually this does not go far enough because what the British public actually really need here is an acknowledgement from the royal family that irrespective of whether Prince Andrew denies the substantive allegations against him, it was morally wrong for him to grovel to Jeffrey Epstein and thorn over Jeffrey Epstein
[16:28] and also Sarah Ferguson too, saying that, you know, she thanked him from her heart and that he was a supreme friend to them.
[16:37] Um, I think there needs to be some kind of an acknowledgement ideally that Andrew misled the public.
[16:41] They would not want to go so far as to say that he lied, but it he misled Emily Matelets when he said to her in that interview in 2019 and that he had no further contact with Epstein after December 2010 when we now know from the emails that have been um published that he did.
[16:59] Um, and so the the wording of this statement is still very much couched in terms that Andrew is doing this because otherwise it distracts from the good work that the monarchy does.
[17:09] And the problem is that that's not how the public see it.
[17:10] What the public see here is a a figure in public life who has acted in a way that is morally unforgivable.
[17:19] That go that is beyond the pale.
[17:21] The problem here for the monarchy that is causing huge reputational damage, particularly among young people, um is that there's never been an
[17:29] acknowledgement from the royal family that Andrew has actually done something morally wrong.
[17:34] And we're at a point now where you can unequivocally make draw that conclusion without having to rule in any way on whether Virginia Jeffrey's allegations are true or not because it is uh very straightforwardly morally objectionable to um you know everyone in Britain effectively that you don't go and form to people who are convicted pedophiles.
[17:56] And Andrew knew that Epstein was a convicted pedophile when he sent the email in February 2011.
[18:00] that was um recently published in which he said, you know, we're in this together and we'll just have to rise above it.
[18:10] Um you've just said that you don't think this goes far enough.
[18:13] If we look at the statement from Prince Andrew, he says specifically that he wants this to to stop uh for him to stop being a distraction from the work uh of the royal family and and the king.
[18:26] Do you think that this action will fail to achieve that?
[18:30] I think it's it has a benefit which is it shows that the king wants to go further than than he's gone before.
[18:38] So that's a positive thing and it sounds like we're not going to see Andrew at Christmas.
[18:41] Hopefully that means ever again.
[18:43] I mean, you know, I think I think you know the understanding is that he certainly won't be there at Christmas this year.
[18:49] There's still Easter to think about.
[18:51] Um we don't know for sure whether he's going to appear then.
[18:53] But if this does uh mean effectively that we will never see Andrew photographed with Charles and William and senior royals ever again, then that will certainly help.
[19:04] But I do think that there is a major missing piece of the puzzle here for the royal family, which is that um you know they are they have been photographed and filmed on camera very recently um being you know standing with Andrew at the Duchess of Ken's funeral.
[19:19] Charles was, you know, William blanked Andrew, but Charles seemed to be chatting with him and they seem to be laughing together.
[19:24] Um, now from the public's point of view, Andrew is completely radioactive.
[19:28] He has uh his
[19:32] reputation is is down there in the pit of where Vladimir Putin is in terms of the polling.
[19:39] Um but the you know the other bit of this um is that the documentary evidence that has come out recently does get us to a point where even if you can't say for sure that Virginia Jeffrey's allegations are true, it is still objectively to you the overwhelming majority of British people morally reprehensible um to speak to Jeffrey Epstein in the way that Andrew did in an email.
[20:08] Um and uh there's been no acknowledgement that he has definitively done something wrong.
[20:12] I mean I think that is the big mismatch between how the public sees this now and how it's still being discussed in this statement.
[20:20] The statement is very much this is all a great big distraction.
[20:24] I still think I'm innocent but it's you know let's focus on the good work the royals do.
[20:26] That is not where the public are with this.
[20:29] where the public are with this is that we now have incontrovertible
[20:34] documentary written evidence that nobody
[20:37] can dispute or deny that Andrew was um
[20:41] quite happy to continue having
[20:43] conversations with Epstein when he knew
[20:45] he must have known that Epstein was a
[20:48] convicted pedophile. Um, and you know,
[20:51] even if you don't engage at all with
[20:53] Virginia's allegations, which obviously
[20:55] we have to, but even if you didn't, that
[20:57] is still morally wrong. And there has
[20:59] been no acknowledgement from Andrew or
[21:01] from the wider royal family that that is
[21:04] morally wrong.
[21:07] Jack Royston, chief royal correspondent
[21:11] at Newsweek. Jack, thank you so much for
[21:13] your time. We appreciate your views on
[21:15] this breaking news story.
[21:18] Thank you.
[21:19] And just to remind uh the viewers uh the
[21:22] breaking news story is that Prince
[21:24] Andrew has uh will no longer use this
[21:27] title or honors. Let's speak now to
[21:29] former royal correspondent Jenny Bond.
[21:32] Jenny, thank you so much for joining us.
[21:34] First of all, your reaction to this?
[21:37] Well, I think a great relief that uh
[21:40] this has finally happened. It had become
[21:42] become quite untenable that the
[21:43] situation could go on as it was day
[21:45] after day of headlines distracting as
[21:48] Andrew himself says um in his statement
[21:50] from the work that the royal family are
[21:52] doing. I'm I'm struck by the use of the
[21:55] pronoun we the king my immediate family
[21:58] and wider family we have concluded that
[22:01] the continued accusations against me uh
[22:04] distract from the work of his majesty
[22:06] and he uses we against later. This is a
[22:08] clear indication that extreme pressure
[22:11] has been put on Prince Andrew to do if
[22:14] you like the decent thing to fall on his
[22:16] sword. I think if he hadn't fallen on
[22:18] his sword, he would have been pushed uh
[22:20] very firmly onto it. Uh he could not go
[22:24] on all these headlines which are indeed
[22:26] distracting from the work of the family.
[22:28] Um, and I think there have been some
[22:31] very uh pointed words obviously between
[22:34] Charles and I think William very much in
[22:37] the background putting the pressure on
[22:39] Andrew to do what most of us would see
[22:42] as the decent thing. I'm also struck by
[22:44] the fact he says I I will give up my
[22:46] title. Um uh I won't use my title. He's
[22:50] not actually giving it up. He's he's not
[22:51] not going to use his title. uh by which
[22:54] he must refer to the duked I suppose
[22:57] which was conferred on him by uh his
[22:59] mother in 1986 when he married Sarah
[23:01] Ferguson who will no longer be a
[23:03] duchess. I mean he's also Baron Kille
[23:06] and the Earl of Invenesse and I have no
[23:08] doubt that he won't be using those
[23:10] either. Um so I think it is uh what we
[23:14] the public really wanted to see happen.
[23:18] Um and I think there'd be relief at the
[23:20] palace that this has finally taken
[23:22] place.
[23:23] Uh Jenny, Prince Andrew has obviously
[23:26] been a problematic figure for the royal
[23:28] family for a long time. He stood back
[23:30] from public life uh five years ago. What
[23:33] would you say, if you think there was
[23:35] one, was the tipping point that has led
[23:38] us here?
[23:39] Yeah. You say he stood back 5 years ago.
[23:41] He makes reference to that in his
[23:43] statement that I stand by my decision to
[23:46] stand back from public duties. Well,
[23:48] that was not his decision. that was his
[23:51] late mother's decision who reluctantly
[23:53] albeit reluctantly she sacked her son
[23:56] because of his news disastrous news um
[23:59] interview. Um and I I think that uh from
[24:03] now on I I don't know what role he's
[24:06] going to have um in in well he'll have
[24:09] no role in public life. Whether we will
[24:11] see him privately I really really don't
[24:14] know. Um, I think the tipping point has
[24:17] been this uh culmination of headline
[24:20] after headline and today photographs of
[24:22] him uh with uh a man associated with the
[24:27] possible Chinese spy scandal that really
[24:30] I think has been the last straw. Uh but
[24:33] day after day, in fact, year after year,
[24:36] you could even say decade after decade
[24:38] these rumors have swirled around Andrew.
[24:41] I reported uh back in 2001 on the rumors
[24:46] about his friendship with the now we
[24:49] know convicted pedophile, the late
[24:51] Jeffrey Epstein. Um and it has just been
[24:55] drip drip drip of scandal after scandal.
[24:58] And when we discovered uh a few days ago
[25:01] that he had actually lied in his News
[25:03] night interview that he had not broken
[25:06] off his uh association with Jeffrey
[25:08] Epstein. And we now know that Sarah
[25:11] Ferguson also lied. She said she'd had
[25:14] no further contact and then wrote him a
[25:16] gushing letter. You cannot have two
[25:18] members of the royal family in any kind
[25:21] of public arena who are mendacious.
[25:26] And Jenny, do you think that this will
[25:28] be enough now for the public to stop the
[25:31] continued distractions from the work of
[25:33] the royal family?
[25:35] Well, it depends whether he pops his
[25:37] head above the parapit even at um
[25:41] private family occasions. Um and if he
[25:44] if he does go and you can't really stop
[25:46] a man going to for example a funeral of
[25:49] a relative or something like that. Um he
[25:52] needs not to stand at the front as he
[25:54] did with the Duchess of Kent's funeral.
[25:56] The pictures there we're seeing. He
[25:58] needs not to cidle up to his uh his
[26:02] nephew William and and try and make what
[26:04] appear to be joial comments. He needs to
[26:05] have a low profile, a very very low pro
[26:09] profile. And that might be enough. Um I
[26:14] mean he has been humiliated uh 5 years
[26:16] ago by being sacked by his mother. He's
[26:18] now been further humiliated by being uh
[26:22] persuaded, shall we say, by his his
[26:25] brother to uh give up his title.
[26:29] I don't know what happens next. I don't
[26:31] know how an ex duke conducts himself. I
[26:35] think it would be rather odd if he and
[26:38] Sarah Ferguson, that's who she is now,
[26:40] continue to live in this huge mansion,
[26:43] royal lodge that the king has been
[26:45] trying to dislodge him from for some
[26:47] time. Um that could be a further
[26:49] development. We shall have to wait and
[26:50] see.
[26:51] And Jenny, what's been the impact of all
[26:54] of this on the royal family itself?
[26:56] Well, I think absolute despair really um
[26:59] time and you know they are out and about
[27:02] all over the place. Uh trying to do what
[27:05] the royal family do uh bring attention
[27:08] to causes and campaigns to issues and
[27:11] the people they visit. Um and it's all
[27:14] getting overshadowed by this lurid
[27:16] headlines day after day um of Andrew. I
[27:19] think that they are royally peed off by
[27:22] it all quite frankly. Um and I think now
[27:25] they just want to draw a line line under
[27:28] this um and get on with what they are
[27:32] really quite good at doing.
[27:35] And Jenny, as you were mentioning, it's
[27:36] a culmination of factors that have led
[27:38] us here. So the continued links to
[27:40] Jeffrey Epstein, also to the Chinese spy
[27:43] scandal. Uh but also we do have a new
[27:45] monarch. So how crucial do you think it
[27:48] is that it was King Charles that was
[27:50] obviously involved in this decision?
[27:54] Well, as I say, his mother took a a very
[27:58] uh big decision uh when she sacked him
[28:02] from his role. That's when he stepped
[28:04] back from all royal duties and stopped
[28:06] using his HR. Um and I I think probably
[28:10] his older brother Charles to him is not
[28:12] particularly close hoped that that might
[28:14] be sufficient but it it became quite um
[28:18] inexcusable and untenable the number of
[28:21] headlines that were coming out. Um, and
[28:24] so obviously he had to do do the deed.
[28:26] Though I think there was uh a lot of
[28:28] pressure coming from William as well who
[28:31] you know hasn't got those brotherly ties
[28:34] to Andrew and I think perhaps was uh
[28:38] slightly more ruthless in his attitude
[28:40] to what had to be done to protect the
[28:42] monarchy.
[28:44] And Jenny, what do you make of the
[28:45] impact that this will have on his
[28:47] closest relatives? So, um, well, his
[28:49] ex-wife Sarah Ferguson, but especially
[28:52] his daughters, Princesses Beatatrice and
[28:54] Eugenie.
[28:55] Well, Sarah and Andrew are very much in
[28:57] this together. Um, and whatever else you
[29:00] say about it, they are they have made a
[29:03] tremendous success of being a divorced
[29:05] couple and, uh, bringing up two very
[29:08] lovely young women. My heart goes out to
[29:11] Beatric and Eujenei. Clearly, it must be
[29:14] it must be heartbreaking for them to see
[29:17] their parents uh humiliated publicly in
[29:20] this way again because uh their young
[29:22] lives have been punctuated by scandals
[29:25] brought about by either Sarah or Andrew.
[29:28] But through thick and thin, they have
[29:30] stood by their parents and I've no doubt
[29:32] they will do so again. But it must be
[29:35] deeply distressing for them. Um, and as
[29:38] I say, what whatever you say about that
[29:40] couple, they they have remained close as
[29:42] a family and I'm sure they will uh
[29:44] hunker down now and uh comfort one
[29:46] another.
[29:49] Okay. And uh just I mean you know we we
[29:52] found out or at least it was announced
[29:54] what about half an hour ago. How
[29:56] surprising was the statement to you?
[30:00] Well, I think it well I I along with
[30:03] other columnists have been writing in
[30:05] newspapers this week that something had
[30:08] to happen. I mean, one particularly
[30:10] untenable part of of his role was that
[30:13] he remained um and I assume he will no
[30:17] longer remain a counselor of state. I
[30:20] think actually that does need
[30:21] clarifying. councilors of state are uh a
[30:24] very small number of senior members of
[30:26] the royal family who can deputize for
[30:28] the monarch um if needs be. Um and
[30:32] although Charles has taken steps to
[30:33] slightly increase that number, thus uh
[30:36] reducing the likelihood of Andrew ever
[30:39] being called to do so um I think that is
[30:42] quite an untenable situation now. So I
[30:46] don't know if he will be uh actually
[30:48] removed as councelor of state. Um but
[30:52] beyond that um we shall have to wait and
[30:54] see what happens with an ex Duke.
[30:59] Jenny Bond, former royal correspondent.
[31:01] Jenny, thank you so much for sharing
[31:03] your insights with us. Thank you.
[31:08] And let's remind you of the breaking
[31:10] news this evening. Prince Andrew has
[31:12] announced that he's giving up his royal
[31:14] titles. He says accusations about him
[31:17] have become a distraction from the royal
[31:19] family. In a statement, Prince Andrew
[31:22] wrote, "In discussion with the king and
[31:24] my immediate and wider family, we have
[31:27] concluded the continued accusations
[31:29] about me distract from the work of his
[31:32] majesty and the royal family. I have
[31:35] decided, as I always have, to put my
[31:37] duty to my family and country first. I
[31:41] stand by my decision five years ago to
[31:44] stand back from public life. With his
[31:46] majesty's agreement, we feel I must now
[31:48] go a step further. I will therefore no
[31:51] longer use my title or the honors which
[31:54] have been conferred upon me. As I have
[31:56] said previously, I vigorously deny the
[31:59] accusations against me.
[32:02] That statement coming in from Prince
[32:04] Andrew. And let's go to Alice Porter who
[32:06] joins us now uh in the studio. a lot of
[32:09] I guess you know now details also coming
[32:12] out about what this actually means uh
[32:15] but certainly something that many felt
[32:16] had to be done just to protect the royal
[32:19] family and its work.
[32:20] Absolutely. I mean we think of the royal
[32:22] family as a family but it is also very
[32:24] much a business and it is an institution
[32:26] and we understand from the palace today
[32:29] that this uh situation with uh Prince
[32:33] Andrew giving up his royal titles is
[32:35] effective immediately. Now, some people
[32:37] watching this may be thinking, well, why
[32:39] now? And the timing of this is really
[32:41] crucial because we've got on Tuesday
[32:44] Virginia Dryy's uh memoirs that is
[32:47] coming out where we understand some
[32:49] incredibly damning quotes when it comes
[32:51] to Prince Andrew are in the book already
[32:54] where she says uh she called Prince
[32:56] Andrew entitled and believed having sex
[32:59] with me with was his birthright. I mean,
[33:02] these are scandalous, shocking
[33:04] statements to be said about a member of
[33:08] the royal family. We have that book
[33:09] coming out on Tuesday, but we've also
[33:12] heard from recent newspapers of
[33:15] suggestions that Prince Andrew continued
[33:18] his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein far
[33:21] longer than he initially said. He
[33:24] initially said in his Newsight interview
[33:26] that the last time he spoke to Epstein,
[33:29] the a convicted pedophile was back in
[33:32] 2010 when they were photographed
[33:34] together. But these emails suggest that
[33:37] their friendship continued for at least
[33:39] another year. Uh where he apparently
[33:42] said we are in this together which is
[33:44] again suggest they had a a continued
[33:47] friendship there. So people watching is
[33:50] thinking well why now? This is very much
[33:52] I think people who understand about the
[33:55] gossip within the palace uh and and and
[33:58] such like this is not coming out of the
[34:00] blue at all and the timing of this is is
[34:03] very significant given what is going to
[34:06] happen next week. But we understand this
[34:07] will happen this is happening
[34:09] immediately in terms of his
[34:11] relinquishing his royal title.
[34:14] Interestingly though, how it's going to
[34:15] play out in his family, his ex-wife
[34:18] Sarah Ferguson, who has sometimes been
[34:21] going by Duchess of York. We understand
[34:23] from the palace that she will no longer
[34:25] officially be able to go by that at all.
[34:28] Again, she has also in the past couple
[34:30] of weeks or so been caught up in the
[34:32] Epstein scandals where emails that she
[34:36] is alleged to have sent to Jeffrey
[34:38] Epstein where she called him her supreme
[34:40] friend. And again, this is just a
[34:43] salacious scandal that's just continuing
[34:45] to be a distraction to the royal family.
[34:49] But interesting that their two
[34:51] daughters, both princesses, p Princess
[34:54] Beatric and Eugene, they're able to
[34:57] continue to keep their titles and will
[35:00] continue to be still known as
[35:01] princesses, as will Prince Andrew
[35:03] because he continues to be uh the son of
[35:06] the late Queen Elizabeth II.
[35:08] Looking at the statement, the wording is
[35:10] interesting. There's a lot of times
[35:11] where he speaks about I have decided as
[35:14] I always have so saying I but then it's
[35:16] with his majesty's agreement we feel I
[35:19] must now go a step further. How much can
[35:22] we infer about how the decision was
[35:24] actually made?
[35:25] A decision like that is certainly not
[35:27] going to be made without really the
[35:30] king's full authority behind it. I mean
[35:33] was he pushed or did he jump? I mean you
[35:35] can really kind of infer from that. It's
[35:37] certainly a very wellthoughtout
[35:39] statement trying to keep it as civil as
[35:43] one could possibly be. But there's no
[35:45] doubt about it. Again, when you look at
[35:46] the timing of this with uh the king
[35:49] going to be praying with the pope, the
[35:51] first British monarch uh in 500 years to
[35:54] be praying with the pope. This is and
[35:56] and and uh the king has always sort of
[35:58] seen himself more as a defender of all
[36:00] faith. So again, that's something that's
[36:02] been very important uh to King Charles.
[36:04] This continues to be more than a
[36:07] distraction, this continues to be really
[36:09] damaging to the reputation of the royal
[36:11] family. So, it's therefore no surprise
[36:13] that whilst this may appear on the
[36:15] outset, again, it's it's a good uh PR
[36:18] strategy I for Prince Andrew to appear
[36:21] that is something that he's, you know,
[36:22] voluntarily done and he's done it with
[36:24] in accordance with the king. But there's
[36:26] no doubt really that you can infer that
[36:28] certainly the king and those around him
[36:30] would have continued to say that you
[36:32] know Prince Andrew continues to be an
[36:34] unwelcome liability for the royal family
[36:36] and a liability of course because of the
[36:38] links to Jeffrey Epstein but also the
[36:40] whole issue around his links with China
[36:44] and Chinese spying.
[36:45] Exactly. I mean, we think, for example,
[36:47] he was he wasn't at Sandringham last
[36:49] year because of his alleged links to a
[36:54] Chinese spy, a scandal that has
[36:56] continued to be growing and was very
[36:58] much in the media this week. So, it's
[37:00] not that it's just one particular
[37:02] scandal. There are a number of them that
[37:04] him, his ex-wife
[37:07] continued to be kind of embroiled in and
[37:09] also not just the scandal, but also his
[37:12] reaction to it. and he has never
[37:14] publicly apologized for his friendship
[37:17] with Jeffrey Epstein in that interview
[37:19] that he did with News Night. And many
[37:21] will have said that that's that is a
[37:23] huge mistake to not have done that
[37:25] bearing in mind that Jeffrey Epstein was
[37:27] a convicted pedophile. So when he's
[37:29] never apologized for his friendship with
[37:31] Jeffrey Epste, there will be some people
[37:33] today watching this thinking this this
[37:36] doesn't go far enough. But of course,
[37:38] it's difficult for the royal family
[37:39] because he's still a member of their
[37:42] family and we saw him at uh the funeral
[37:45] recently a couple of weeks ago um of the
[37:48] Duchess of Kent's funeral in September
[37:49] and there he was because of course he is
[37:51] a member of their family. His daughters
[37:54] are cousins to uh William and Harry. It
[37:57] becomes very difficult how do you
[37:59] negotiate family events when one person
[38:01] there is persona non grata. um what do
[38:04] we understand are some of the details
[38:07] behind it? So for example, when does it
[38:09] take effect? Where is he going to live?
[38:11] Because you just mentioned for example
[38:13] that he does remain a prince because he
[38:15] is the son of the late queen. But some
[38:18] of the other details, what do we
[38:19] understand them to be? Well, there's
[38:22] certainly been repeated calls for Prince
[38:24] Andrew to be removed from Royal Lodge.
[38:27] That's his 30 room mansion in Windsor.
[38:30] But we understand that he has his own
[38:32] independent lease with the crown estate.
[38:34] Um that will last for quite some time.
[38:37] Um so it seems unlikely they'll be he'll
[38:39] be removed from there. Although of
[38:41] course there will be many calls from
[38:43] people to uh for him not to continue
[38:46] there. We understand though he will not
[38:48] be attending any royal family
[38:51] celebrations at Christmas most notably
[38:54] Sandringham where of course every year
[38:56] the royal family are always photographed
[38:58] together. It's a very important display
[39:01] of unity for the royal family. As I say,
[39:04] he wasn't there last year because of
[39:07] being embroiled in the Chinese spy
[39:09] scandal. Uh but we know certainly from
[39:12] the palace he will not be there this
[39:14] year as well. Where that leaves other
[39:17] events, Easter and and so forth, we're
[39:19] not quite sure yet. I guess another
[39:21] thing we're not really sure of is what
[39:23] impact this is going to have because the
[39:25] royal family will definitely hope that
[39:27] this will sort of move the scandal away
[39:28] from them and stop distracting them uh
[39:31] from many other things that they're
[39:32] involved in. You mentioned that the king
[39:34] uh will pray with the pope, the first
[39:36] time that's happened in half a
[39:38] millennium, but I guess we don't yet
[39:40] know whether this will be enough.
[39:43] No, we don't. And he will. There's no
[39:45] doubt about it. They can try and remove
[39:47] him his his titles and remove him. I
[39:49] mean he's already not been a working
[39:51] royal for for some years now and he has
[39:53] already been taking a a step back. But
[39:56] it is unavoidable when somebody is a
[39:57] part of a family and such a a famous
[40:00] family as the royal family and to have a
[40:02] situation where your daughters are still
[40:04] working royals and and princesses. It's
[40:07] going to be very very challenging. But I
[40:09] think certainly it is a way in which the
[40:11] royal family can certainly be shown from
[40:14] their point of view we're doing our
[40:16] best. we're doing our best to try and
[40:18] manage a really really difficult
[40:20] situation, but some people may feel it
[40:22] doesn't go far enough.
[40:23] I mean, the news broke 40 minutes ago,
[40:24] so it'll be interesting to see what the
[40:26] wider reaction to it is for the moment.
[40:28] Alice Porter, thank you so much.
[40:31] And a short time ago, I spoke to Jack
[40:33] Royston, chief royal correspondent at
[40:35] Newsweek for his reaction.
[40:39] Well, I think actually this does not go
[40:41] far enough because what the British
[40:43] public actually really need here is an
[40:45] acknowledgement from the royal family
[40:47] that irrespective of whether Prince
[40:50] Andrew denies the substantive
[40:51] allegations against him, it was morally
[40:54] wrong for him to grovel to Jeffrey
[40:57] Epstein and thorn over Jeffrey Epstein
[40:59] and also Sarah Ferguson too, saying
[41:01] that, you know, she thanked him from her
[41:03] heart and that he was a supreme friend
[41:05] to them. Um, I think there needs to be
[41:07] some kind of an acknowledgement, ideally
[41:09] that Andrew misled the public. They
[41:11] would not want to go so far as to say
[41:13] that he lied, but it he misled Emily
[41:15] Matelets when he said to her in that
[41:17] interview in 2019 and that he had no
[41:20] further contact with Epstein after
[41:22] December 2010 when we now know from the
[41:25] emails that have been um published that
[41:27] he did. Um, and so the the wording of
[41:30] this statement is still very much
[41:32] couched in terms that Andrew is doing
[41:34] this because otherwise it distracts from
[41:37] the good work that the monarchy does.
[41:39] And the problem is that that's not how
[41:41] the public see it. What the public see
[41:43] here is a a figure in public life who
[41:47] has acted in a way that is morally
[41:49] unforgivable. That go that is beyond the
[41:51] pale. The problem here for the monarchy
[41:54] that is causing huge reputational
[41:55] damage, particularly among young people,
[41:58] um is that there's never been an
[42:00] acknowledgement from the royal family
[42:02] that Andrew has actually done something
[42:04] morally wrong. And we're at a point now
[42:07] where you can unequivocally make draw
[42:09] that conclusion without having to rule
[42:12] in any way on whether Virginia Jeffy's
[42:15] allegations are true or not because it
[42:17] is uh very straightforwardly morally
[42:19] objectionable to um you know everyone in
[42:23] Britain effectively that you don't go
[42:25] and form to people who are convicted
[42:27] pedophiles. And Andrew knew that Epstein
[42:29] was a convicted pedophile when he sent
[42:31] the email in February 2011. that was um
[42:35] recently published in which he said, you
[42:37] know, we're in this together and we'll
[42:38] just have to rise above it.
[42:41] Um you've just said that you don't think
[42:43] this goes far enough. If we look at the
[42:45] statement from Prince Andrew, he says
[42:47] specifically that he wants this to to
[42:50] stop uh for him to stop being a
[42:52] distraction from the work uh of the
[42:54] royal family and and the king. Do you
[42:56] think that this action will fail to
[42:59] achieve that?
[43:01] I think it's it has a benefit which is
[43:04] it shows that the king wants to go
[43:06] further than than he's gone before. So
[43:08] that's a positive thing and it sounds
[43:10] like we're not going to see Andrew at
[43:12] Christmas. Hopefully that means ever
[43:14] again. I mean, you know, I think I think
[43:17] you know the understanding is that he
[43:18] certainly won't be there at Christmas
[43:20] this year. There's still Easter to think
[43:22] about. Um we don't know for sure whether
[43:24] he's going to appear then. But if this
[43:25] does uh mean effectively that we will
[43:28] never see Andrew photographed with
[43:31] Charles and William and senior royals
[43:32] ever again, then that will certainly
[43:34] help. But I do think that there is a
[43:36] major missing piece of the puzzle here
[43:38] for the royal family, which is that um
[43:40] you know they are they have been
[43:41] photographed and filmed on camera very
[43:44] recently um being you know standing with
[43:47] Andrew at the Duchess of Kent's funeral.
[43:50] Charles was, you know, William blanked
[43:52] Andrew, but Charles seemed to be
[43:53] chatting with him and they seemed to be
[43:54] laughing together. Um, now from the
[43:57] public's point of view, Andrew is
[43:59] completely radioactive. He has uh his
[44:02] reputation is is down there in the pit
[44:05] of where Vladimir Putin is in terms of
[44:07] the polling. Um but the you know the
[44:09] other bit of this um is that the
[44:12] documentary evidence that has come out
[44:14] recently does get us to a point where
[44:18] even if you can't say for sure that
[44:21] Virginia Jeffy's allegations are true,
[44:23] it is still objectively to the
[44:27] overwhelming majority of British people
[44:29] morally reprehensible
[44:31] um to speak to Jeffrey Epstein in the
[44:34] way that Andrew did in an email. Um and
[44:38] uh there's been no acknowledgement that
[44:40] he has definitively done something
[44:43] wrong. I mean I think that is the big
[44:45] mismatch between how the public sees
[44:46] this now and how it's still being
[44:49] discussed in this statement. The
[44:50] statement is very much this is all a
[44:53] great big distraction. I still think I'm
[44:55] innocent but it's you know let's focus
[44:57] on the good work the royals do. That is
[44:59] not where the public are with this.
[45:00] where the public are with this is that
[45:02] we now have incontrovertible
[45:05] documentary written evidence that nobody
[45:08] can dispute or deny that Andrew was um
[45:12] quite happy to continue having
[45:14] conversations with Epstein when he knew
[45:16] he must have known that Epstein was a
[45:19] convicted pedophile. Um, and you know,
[45:22] even if you don't engage at all with
[45:24] Virginia's allegations, which obviously
[45:25] we have to, but even if you didn't, that
[45:28] is still morally wrong. And there has
[45:29] been no acknowledgement from Andrew or
[45:32] from the White Royal family that that is
[45:34] morally wrong.
[45:37] If you're just joining us, the breaking
[45:40] news this evening is that Prince Andrew
[45:42] has announced that he's giving up his
[45:44] royal titles. He says accusations about
[45:47] him have become a distraction from the
[45:50] royal family. In a statement, Prince
[45:53] Andrew wrote, "In discussion with the
[45:55] king and my immediate and wider family,
[45:58] we have concluded, the continued
[46:00] accusations about me distract from the
[46:03] work of his majesty and the royal
[46:05] family. I have decided, as I always
[46:08] have, to put my duty to my family and
[46:10] country first.
[46:12] I stand by my decision five years ago to
[46:15] stand back from public life. With His
[46:18] Majesty's agreement, we feel I must now
[46:20] go a step further. I will therefore no
[46:23] longer use my title or the honors which
[46:26] have been conferred upon me. As I have
[46:28] said previously, I vigorously deny the
[46:31] accusations against me. That statement
[46:34] coming in to us from Prince Andrew.
[46:37] Well, let's bring in Sky Alice Porter
[46:39] who is with me now. and he mentions the
[46:41] accusations against him. Of course, the
[46:44] most damaging ones linked to Jeffrey
[46:47] Epstein, the late financier and
[46:48] convicted uh pedophile. Just talk us
[46:50] through the latest developments on on
[46:52] those and why some of that may have been
[46:54] the tipping point that led us here.
[46:56] Well, of course, there was the
[46:57] disastrous interview that Prince Andrew
[47:00] did on News Night, which kind of laid
[47:02] bare their friendship really. Now,
[47:05] according to that interview, he stopped
[47:07] his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein back
[47:10] in 2010 when they were photographed
[47:12] together. I mean, again, at the time, it
[47:14] was seen as more than strange that he'd
[47:17] gone all the way to see Jeffrey Epstein
[47:19] in person in order to end their
[47:21] friendship. It was and then we what we
[47:24] have is emails suggesting that he
[47:28] continued a friendship with him much
[47:30] longer, at least a year beyond that.
[47:33] that was reported in a number of
[47:35] newspapers over the last week or so
[47:37] which really then cast out over his
[47:39] timeline of events but also in this
[47:42] alleged email he said we are in this
[47:45] together. I mean this is a member of the
[47:47] royal family saying we are in this
[47:49] together with a convicted pedophile. I
[47:50] mean this is just extraordinary
[47:53] revelation and the timing of this is
[47:56] significant because on Tuesday we have
[47:59] the memoirs that of course being
[48:02] published postumously of Virginia Grey
[48:05] who always alleged that Prince Andrew
[48:08] and her had a sexual relationship but
[48:11] she was 17 years old. Now, he's always
[48:14] denied those accusations, but he there
[48:17] was still a civil uh case that was
[48:20] settled for millions and millions of
[48:22] pounds. Now, she tragically took her own
[48:24] life, and her memoirs are being
[48:27] published on Tuesday. And again, we can
[48:30] expect to hear more scandal and
[48:33] salacious detail. We understand that she
[48:36] has said that of Andrew that he was
[48:38] entitled and that he believed having sex
[48:40] with me was his birthright. Now, when
[48:43] you have a book like that coming out on
[48:45] Tuesday and then the king going to the
[48:48] Vatican City to pray with the Pope the
[48:51] next day on a visit there, the first
[48:54] time we've had a British monarch pray
[48:56] alongside the Pope for 500 years since,
[49:01] you know, we broke from Rome under Henry
[49:03] VII. You have the the gravity of that
[49:06] moment at the Vatican. and King Charles
[49:10] who's often seen himself he said as
[49:12] defender of all faiths that's sort of a
[49:14] message he's often tried to get out and
[49:16] to have a British monarch there side by
[49:17] side with the pope at the Vatican in
[49:20] this really significant uh moment of
[49:22] somnity and to have that happen when
[49:25] you've got all this scandal uh that's
[49:27] engulfing the royal family you can sort
[49:30] of see why this timing now is just so
[49:32] significant
[49:32] absolutely and he sort of mentions it in
[49:35] his own statement he said you know the
[49:37] continued accusations about me distract
[49:39] from the work of his majesty and the
[49:41] royal family and I suppose that's what
[49:43] the royal family is going to want to
[49:45] hope that this is actually enough but
[49:47] what details do we understand about you
[49:50] know what this actually take the shape
[49:51] that this takes where is he going to
[49:53] live is he going to be present at some
[49:55] key moments of the royal family's uh
[49:57] private life
[49:58] well we understand that he will continue
[50:01] to live in the house that he's been in
[50:04] for some time the royal lodge but there
[50:07] have been repeated the calls for him to
[50:08] be removed from this 30 room mansion in
[50:11] Windsor, but he has his own independent
[50:14] lease with the Crown estate that lasts
[50:16] until 2078. So, we can assume he will
[50:20] continue to stay in that property, but
[50:21] of course there will be numerous people
[50:24] uh clamoring for him to be removed from
[50:27] that property uh given how embroiled he
[50:31] has been within this scandal and also
[50:33] because of the fact that he has never
[50:34] apologized for his friendship with
[50:36] Epstein. And I think there will be many
[50:38] people who are not only critical of that
[50:40] but critical of of of the royal family
[50:42] in this regard as well is that um whilst
[50:46] they have done over the last few years
[50:48] they've slowly removed various titles
[50:50] from him. I mean certainly when Queen
[50:52] Elizabeth II was on the throne uh
[50:55] various other titles removed. So there's
[50:56] been a a process in removing his public
[51:00] significance. Uh he hasn't been a
[51:02] working royal for some time. uh he
[51:04] stopped using his his royal highness or
[51:07] HR in 2022.
[51:10] Um all his military affiliations, royal
[51:12] patroners were returned by his mother.
[51:15] But so there's been this kind of
[51:17] continued process of trying to remove
[51:20] him from public life, from royal
[51:23] service. But what do they do with him
[51:26] now? Because he is still ultimately he
[51:28] has two daughters who continue to keep
[51:30] their titles. We understand that from
[51:32] the palace when we've heard from them
[51:33] this evening that while Prince Andrew
[51:36] and what was the Duchess of York, both
[51:39] of them will no longer have their titles
[51:41] at all, but their daughters will
[51:42] continue to be princesses and working
[51:45] royals. That is a really complex and
[51:47] difficult situation and we really don't
[51:49] know how it's going to play out at
[51:50] certain private events, let alone public
[51:54] ones.
[51:54] Yeah, Alice Porter, uh, thank you so
[51:57] much for that. And now we're joined by
[52:01] Steven Bates, former royal correspondent
[52:04] at the Guardian. Steven Bates, thank you
[52:05] so much for joining us here on Sky News.
[52:08] Uh your reaction and also do you think
[52:10] that this will be enough uh to stop
[52:13] Prince Andrew being a distraction to the
[52:15] work of the royal family?
[52:17] I think uh the distraction continues. Um
[52:21] uh it is a surprise that um he's uh
[52:24] given up his titles. although he'll
[52:26] still be a prince, he can't give that up
[52:29] because he's a a a son of the late
[52:32] queen. Um I think the constant drip drip
[52:36] drip of revelations about his relations
[52:40] with Epstein and um Virginia Guay are um
[52:45] uh inevitable. It it means it's
[52:48] inevitable that um something had to be
[52:51] done. I suppose the next step will be to
[52:54] try and squeeze him out of the royal
[52:56] lodge. Um but that may be a step too
[53:00] far. Uh he's shown no sign of any sort
[53:03] of contrition. He continues to deny all
[53:07] the allegations against him. Um and um
[53:10] he speaks of his duty to the family. Uh
[53:14] well, it's a bit late to be thinking
[53:16] about that, I think, and I'm sure people
[53:18] will uh expect something further from
[53:21] him. Maybe moving out of the Royal Lodge
[53:24] would be a help as well.
[53:28] And uh when it comes to the way that
[53:31] this decision was reached, you said it
[53:34] was a bit of a drip drip effect, but do
[53:36] you think that there was one particular
[53:38] issue, one particular revelation? We
[53:40] have Regina Duffy's book coming out on
[53:42] Tuesday, for example. Do you think there
[53:45] was any one thing that turned into a
[53:46] tipping point?
[53:48] Well, I I think the level of detail in
[53:52] Virginia's book together with Andrew
[53:54] Looney's book a few weeks ago. Um the
[53:58] details are are so strong in those in
[54:02] those books. It's uh very difficult for
[54:05] him to maintain his denial of all this.
[54:08] Uh the circumstantial detail is um
[54:11] overwhelming I would suggest and uh uh
[54:14] it leaves very little option for the
[54:17] royal family to to but to cast him off
[54:20] as far as it possibly can. And uh we
[54:23] know that the king and uh Prince William
[54:26] have wanted to do this and have been
[54:28] trying to do this uh for quite a while
[54:30] now.
[54:33] We don't of course yet know. I mean the
[54:35] news broke 54 minutes ago. We don't yet
[54:37] know what the public reaction is going
[54:39] to be. We don't yet know whether this
[54:41] will manage to take away the
[54:43] distractions from the royal family. But
[54:45] do you think there's anything else that
[54:47] the royal family could do?
[54:50] Uh I don't know. Um in so long as he
[54:54] maintains um a sort of obstinate
[54:58] presence uh in the royal family, uh I'm
[55:02] not sure that there is very much that he
[55:04] can do uh or that the royals can do. Um,
[55:07] I think the public reaction is pretty
[55:10] well baked in. Um, he he has virtually
[55:14] no public sympathy at all and hasn't had
[55:17] for a number of years now since the
[55:20] revelations about his relationship with
[55:23] Epstein and uh, Gileain Maxwell came
[55:26] out. Um, can't see anyone standing up
[55:30] for the for the prince. um he hasn't
[55:32] made it easy for himself and um I think
[55:35] this was an inevitable development.
[55:39] He does end his statement where he says
[55:43] that he's decided to put duty to family
[55:45] and country first. He does end it though
[55:48] by saying as I have said previously, I
[55:50] vigorously deny the accusations against
[55:53] me.
[55:55] Yes. Well, that's been his position all
[55:56] the way through. um even while um his
[56:00] mother was paying compensation of about
[56:03] 12 million pounds. Um
[56:06] I think it's beyond deniability now.
[56:08] He's never been able to give a
[56:10] convincing explanation least of all in
[56:13] that famous BBC interview um for his
[56:16] actions. and um that remains a great
[56:20] hole a void in um his uh defense against
[56:24] uh all these uh claims against him.
[56:28] Um it'll be a test I guess just in the
[56:31] coming week as we were mentioning
[56:32] Virginia Grey's book comes out on
[56:35] Tuesday and then later on in the week
[56:38] the king and queen will be in Rome at
[56:40] the Vatican to to visit the pope and
[56:43] it'll be the first time in half a
[56:45] millennia that a British monarch and the
[56:47] pope sit down to pray together. So I
[56:50] guess it'll be a real test to see
[56:52] whether this story and the events around
[56:55] Prince Andrew detract from that event.
[56:57] How do you think it will go?
[56:59] Uh I think that's an entirely separate
[57:01] uh event. Um that is uh uh much more
[57:06] significant in many ways or at least the
[57:07] king will hope it's a more significant
[57:09] event and it is extremely historic for
[57:14] uh the king and the pope to pray in
[57:17] public together. I mean uh it's only 500
[57:20] and whatever it is nearly 600 years
[57:23] since um uh the reformation. 500 years
[57:26] since the reformation and um from
[57:29] several of those centuries in between um
[57:33] uh the king and the uh a succession of
[57:37] kings have regarded the pope as an
[57:39] absolute anathema. So uh and that
[57:42] feeling has been pretty mutual. Um, so I
[57:45] think that is a more significant event
[57:47] in the overall picture of uh uh of uh
[57:52] the modern monarchy and I'm sure the
[57:54] king hopes that will be the case.
[57:58] The Jeffrey Epstein links are perhaps
[58:00] the most aborant uh you know things he's
[58:03] accused of. But there's also the fact
[58:06] that he held meetings with top Chinese
[58:08] officials at the center of a spy case.
[58:11] How damaging do you think that was?
[58:14] Well, that's more collateral damage for
[58:16] him, isn't it? Um, he was a trade
[58:20] ambassador uh although opinions are
[58:23] divided about um how much trade he
[58:26] actually did on the country's behalf as
[58:29] opposed to his own behalf. Um yeah, it
[58:32] all adds to a picture of a feckless um a
[58:36] feckless prince and uh one who uh
[58:39] despite his statement tonight um wasn't
[58:42] terribly public-spirited or notable for
[58:45] his sense of duty as opposed to his
[58:47] sense of entitlement.
[58:49] Were you surprised by this statement?
[58:51] Did you feel that something had to be
[58:53] done?
[58:54] Well, it it was growing increasingly
[58:57] likely that something more would be
[58:59] needed. And uh clearly he's been called
[59:02] in and uh carpeted by uh by the king.
[59:06] And um this week's revelations in the
[59:09] forthcoming book um only adds adds to
[59:14] the difficulty. And um if the prince
[59:16] didn't see that coming, then um he was
[59:19] uh even uh less astute and pspeatious
[59:23] than uh we thought he was.
[59:26] Steven Bates, former royal correspondent
[59:29] at the Guardian. Steven, thank you so
[59:31] much for sharing your thoughts with us.
[59:32] We're going to have to leave it there.
[59:37] And a short time ago, I spoke to the
[59:39] former royal correspondent Jenny Bond to
[59:41] get her reaction Andrew's announcement.
[59:44] It had become become quite untenable
[59:46] that the situation could go on as it was
[59:48] day after day of headlines distracting
[59:51] as Andrew himself says um in his
[59:53] statement from the work that the royal
[59:55] family are doing. I'm struck by the use
[59:58] of the pronoun we the king my immediate
[01:00:01] family and wider family we have
[01:00:03] concluded that the continued accusations
[01:00:06] against me uh distract from the work of
[01:00:08] his majesty and he uses we against
[01:00:10] later. This is a clear indication that
[01:00:13] extreme pressure has been put on Prince
[01:00:16] Andrew to do if you like the decent
[01:00:19] thing to fall on his sword. I think if
[01:00:20] he hadn't fallen on his sword, he would
[01:00:22] have been pushed uh very firmly onto it.
[01:00:26] Uh it could not go on all these
[01:00:28] headlines which are indeed distracting
[01:00:30] from the work of the family. Um, and I
[01:00:33] think there have been some very uh
[01:00:36] pointed words obviously between Charles
[01:00:38] and I think William very much in the
[01:00:40] background putting the pressure on
[01:00:43] Andrew to do what most of us would see
[01:00:46] as the decent thing. I'm also struck by
[01:00:48] the fact he says I I will give up my
[01:00:50] title. Um, uh, I won't use my title.
[01:00:54] Actually giving it up. He's he's not not
[01:00:55] going to use his title. uh by which he
[01:00:58] must refer to the duked I suppose which
[01:01:00] was conferred on him by uh his mother in
[01:01:03] 1986 when he married Sarah Ferguson who
[01:01:06] will no longer be a duchess. I mean he's
[01:01:08] also Baron Kille and the Earl of
[01:01:10] Invenesse and I have no doubt that he
[01:01:12] won't be using those either. Um so I
[01:01:16] think it is uh what we the public really
[01:01:20] wanted to see happen. Um and I think
[01:01:22] there'd be relief at the palace that
[01:01:24] this has finally taken place.
[01:01:27] Uh Jenny, Prince Andrew has obviously
[01:01:29] been a problematic figure for the royal
[01:01:31] family for a long time. He stood back
[01:01:34] from public life uh five years ago. What
[01:01:37] would you say if you think there was one
[01:01:39] was the tipping point that has led us
[01:01:42] here?
[01:01:43] Yeah. You say he stood back five years
[01:01:44] ago. He makes reference to that in his
[01:01:46] statement that I stand by my decision to
[01:01:49] stand back from public duties. Well,
[01:01:52] that was not his decision. That was his
[01:01:54] late mother's decision. who reluctantly,
[01:01:57] albeit reluctantly, she sacked her son
[01:01:59] because of his news disastrous news um
[01:02:03] interview. Um and I I think that uh from
[01:02:07] now on I I don't know what role he's
[01:02:10] going to have um in in well he'll have
[01:02:13] no role in public life. Whether we will
[01:02:14] see him privately, I really really don't
[01:02:17] know. Um, I think the tipping point has
[01:02:20] been this uh culmination of headline
[01:02:23] after headline and today photographs of
[01:02:25] him uh with uh a man associated with the
[01:02:30] possible Chinese spy scandal that really
[01:02:33] I think has been the last straw. Uh but
[01:02:36] day after day, in fact, year after year,
[01:02:39] you could even say decade after decade
[01:02:42] these rumors have swirled around Andrew.
[01:02:44] I reported uh back in 2001 on the rumors
[01:02:49] about his friendship with the now we
[01:02:52] know convicted pedophile, the late
[01:02:54] Jeffrey Epstein. Um and it has just been
[01:02:58] drip drip drip of scandal after scandal.
[01:03:01] And when we discovered uh a few days ago
[01:03:04] that he had actually lied in his News
[01:03:06] night interview that he had not broken
[01:03:09] off his uh association with Jeffrey
[01:03:12] Epstein. And we now know that Sarah
[01:03:14] Ferguson also lied. She said she'd had
[01:03:17] no further contact and then wrote him a
[01:03:19] gushing letter. You cannot have two
[01:03:22] members of the royal family in any kind
[01:03:25] of public arena who are mendacious.
[01:03:29] And Jenny, do you think that this will
[01:03:31] be enough now for the public to stop the
[01:03:34] continued distractions from the work of
[01:03:36] the royal family?
[01:03:38] Well, it depends whether he pops his
[01:03:41] head above the parapit even at um
[01:03:44] private family occasions. Um and if he
[01:03:48] if he does go and you can't really stop
[01:03:49] a man going to for example a funeral of
[01:03:52] a relative or something like that. Um he
[01:03:55] needs not to stand at the front as he
[01:03:57] did with the Duchess of Kent's funeral.
[01:04:00] The pictures there we're seeing. He
[01:04:01] needs not to cidle up to his uh his
[01:04:05] nephew William and and try and make what
[01:04:07] appear to be joial comments. He needs to
[01:04:09] have a low profile, a very very low pro
[01:04:12] profile. And that might be enough. Um I
[01:04:17] mean he has been humiliated uh 5 years
[01:04:20] ago by being sacked by his mother. He's
[01:04:22] now been further humiliated by being uh
[01:04:26] persuaded, shall we say, by his his
[01:04:28] brother to uh give up his title.
[01:04:32] I don't know what happens next. I don't
[01:04:34] know how an ex duke conducts himself. I
[01:04:38] think it would be rather odd if he and
[01:04:41] Sarah Ferguson, that's who she is now,
[01:04:44] continue to live in this huge mansion,
[01:04:46] royal lodge that the king has been
[01:04:48] trying to dislodge him from for some
[01:04:50] time.
[01:04:51] um that could be a further development.
[01:04:53] We shall have to wait and see.
[01:04:55] And Jenny, what's been the impact of all
[01:04:57] of this on the royal family itself?
[01:05:00] Well, I think absolute despair really.
[01:05:02] Um time and you know, they are out and
[01:05:05] about all over the place. Uh trying to
[01:05:07] do what the royal family do uh bring
[01:05:11] attention to causes and campaigns, to
[01:05:13] issues and the people they visit. Um and
[01:05:16] it's all getting overshadowed by this
[01:05:19] lurid headlines day after day um of
[01:05:22] Andrew. I think that they are royally
[01:05:24] peed off by it all quite frankly. Um and
[01:05:28] I think now they just want to draw a
[01:05:30] line under this um and get on with what
[01:05:35] they are really quite good at doing.
[01:05:38] And Jenny, as you were mentioning, it's
[01:05:39] a combination of factors that have led
[01:05:42] us here. So the continued links to
[01:05:44] Jeffrey Epste and also to the Chinese
[01:05:45] spy scandal. Uh but also we do have a
[01:05:49] new monarch. So how crucial do you think
[01:05:51] it is that it was King Charles that was
[01:05:54] obviously involved in this decision?
[01:05:58] Well, as I say, his mother took a a very
[01:06:02] uh big decision uh when she sacked him
[01:06:05] from his role. That's when he stepped
[01:06:07] back from all the royal duties and
[01:06:09] stopped using his HR. Um and I I think
[01:06:13] probably his older brother Charles to
[01:06:15] whom is not particularly close hoped
[01:06:16] that that might be sufficient but it it
[01:06:19] became quite um inexcusable and
[01:06:23] untenable the number of headlines that
[01:06:25] were coming out. Um, and so obviously he
[01:06:28] had to do do the deed. Though I think
[01:06:30] there was uh a lot of pressure coming
[01:06:32] from William as well who you know hasn't
[01:06:35] got those brotherly ties to Andrew and I
[01:06:38] think perhaps was uh slightly more
[01:06:42] ruthless in his attitude to what had to
[01:06:44] be done to protect the monarchy.
[01:06:47] And Jenny, what do you make of the
[01:06:49] impact that this will have on his
[01:06:50] closest relatives? So, um, well, his
[01:06:53] ex-wife Sarah Ferguson, but especially
[01:06:55] his daughters, Princesses Beatatrice and
[01:06:57] Eugenie.
[01:06:58] Well, Sarah and Andrew are very much in
[01:07:00] this together. Um, and whatever else you
[01:07:04] say about it, they are they have made a
[01:07:06] tremendous success of being a divorced
[01:07:09] couple and, uh, bringing up two very
[01:07:12] lovely young women. My heart goes out to
[01:07:15] Beatric and Eujenei. Really, it must be
[01:07:18] it must be heartbreaking for them to see
[01:07:20] their parents uh humiliated publicly in
[01:07:23] this way again because uh their young
[01:07:26] lives have been punctuated by scandals
[01:07:28] brought about by either Sarah or Andrew.
[01:07:31] But through thick and thin they have
[01:07:33] stood by their parents and I've no doubt
[01:07:36] they will do so again. But it must be
[01:07:38] deeply distressing for them. Um, and as
[01:07:41] I say, what whatever you say about that
[01:07:43] couple, they they have remained close as
[01:07:45] a family and I'm sure they will uh
[01:07:47] hunker down now and uh comfort one
[01:07:50] another.
[01:07:52] Okay. And uh just I mean you know we we
[01:07:55] found out or at least it was announced
[01:07:57] what about half an hour ago. How
[01:08:00] surprising was the statement to you?
[01:08:03] Well, I think it well I I along with
[01:08:07] other columnists have been writing in
[01:08:08] newspapers this week that something had
[01:08:11] to happen. I mean, one particularly
[01:08:14] untenable part of of his role was that
[01:08:16] he remained um and I assume he will no
[01:08:21] longer remain a counselor of state. I
[01:08:23] think actually that does need
[01:08:24] clarifying. councilors of state are uh a
[01:08:27] very small number of senior members of
[01:08:29] the royal family who can deputize for
[01:08:31] the monarch um if needs be. Um and
[01:08:35] although Charles has taken steps to
[01:08:37] slightly increase that number thus uh
[01:08:40] reducing the likelihood of Andrew ever
[01:08:42] being called to do so um I think that is
[01:08:46] quite an untenable situation now. So I
[01:08:49] don't know if he will be uh actually
[01:08:51] removed as counselor of state. Um but
[01:08:55] beyond that um we shall have to wait and
[01:08:58] see what happens with an ex Duke.
[01:09:02] Good evening. If you're just joining us,
[01:09:04] let me remind you of the breaking news
[01:09:06] this evening. Prince Andrew has
[01:09:08] announced that he's giving up his royal
[01:09:10] titles. He says accusations about him
[01:09:12] have become a distraction from the royal
[01:09:15] family. In a statement, Prince Andrew
[01:09:18] wrote, "In discussion with the king and
[01:09:20] my immediate and wider family, we have
[01:09:22] concluded the continued accusations
[01:09:24] about me distract from the work of his
[01:09:26] majesty and the royal family. I have
[01:09:29] decided, as I always have, to put my
[01:09:32] duty to my family and country first.
[01:09:36] I stand by my decision five years ago to
[01:09:39] stand back from public life. With his
[01:09:41] majesty's agreement, we feel I must now
[01:09:43] go a step further. I will therefore no
[01:09:46] longer use my title or the honors which
[01:09:49] have been conferred upon me. As I have
[01:09:51] said previously, I vigorously deny the
[01:09:53] accusations against me.
[01:09:56] Let's speak now to Andrew Looney, author
[01:09:59] of The Rise and Fall of the House of
[01:10:01] York. Good evening to you. Um were you
[01:10:03] surprised by this announcement today?
[01:10:07] Uh well, I'm surprised it's come as soon
[01:10:08] as it has. I mean, the the royal the
[01:10:10] palace is trying to get ahead of the
[01:10:12] story now. Uh, as Jenny says, there have
[01:10:14] been a lot of people saying that this
[01:10:16] wasn't a tenable position. I think
[01:10:18] particularly after the leaked email um
[01:10:21] uh at the weekend of his links with with
[01:10:23] Epstein going on longer than people
[01:10:25] thought uh and also the Chinese spy
[01:10:27] allegations. Uh and you know, people
[01:10:29] were beginning to say that the king is
[01:10:31] weak uh and this was uh undermining the
[01:10:33] reputation of the monarchy. So something
[01:10:35] had to be done. Uh I mean this is an
[01:10:37] easy solution. He's only just standing
[01:10:39] down from these titles. Uh I I think
[01:10:42] that it's perfectly clear from my book
[01:10:44] and and and plenty of other research
[01:10:45] that the accusations against him are
[01:10:48] pretty valid. Uh and this is about the
[01:10:50] first thing that he's done in terms of
[01:10:52] putting his family first. I mean, we
[01:10:54] think of the Royal Lodge fiasco where he
[01:10:56] had hung in there even though the optics
[01:10:58] look bad. So I think that the palace may
[01:11:00] be hoping that this will lay to rest
[01:11:02] some of the concerns, but I I suspect
[01:11:04] this is only the first of of many things
[01:11:07] that are going to happen. Now
[01:11:09] you suggested that that people were
[01:11:11] beginning to say that the king is is
[01:11:13] weak. Who who do you speak of?
[01:11:16] Well, I mean comments in in articles uh
[01:11:18] uh even the commentators were saying
[01:11:20] this. I mean Wilson uh writing about the
[01:11:22] biggest crisis since the abdication. So
[01:11:25] I mean that there were plenty of people
[01:11:26] saying that this was just getting worse
[01:11:28] and worse. It was infecting the body
[01:11:30] politic and and that this limb needed to
[01:11:32] be cut off.
[01:11:34] Why do you think that the tipping point
[01:11:35] has come now? because as you say this
[01:11:38] has been simmering for many years now.
[01:11:41] Well, I mean though I wrote in my book
[01:11:43] about the the the lies being told about
[01:11:45] the links with Epstein. Uh I think it
[01:11:47] was the the leaked emails in the mail on
[01:11:49] Sunday both for Sarah Ferguson a month
[01:11:51] ago and for him uh this Sunday which I
[01:11:54] think showed that he hadn't told the
[01:11:57] truth in that News Night interview. It
[01:11:59] put into question everything he had
[01:12:01] said. I think the royal family realized
[01:12:02] that they'd perhaps been sold a pap uh
[01:12:05] and um I think the commentary mixture of
[01:12:08] the commentary and the worry that there
[01:12:10] would be further disclosures to come uh
[01:12:12] made them realize that they had to do
[01:12:14] something decisive.
[01:12:16] And what about this book to be released
[01:12:19] uh by Virginia Duffrey who uh is no
[01:12:23] longer anymore took her her own life.
[01:12:26] Are there revelations in this book that
[01:12:28] that could be even more detrimental?
[01:12:32] Well, I mean, we've seen some serialized
[01:12:34] we know what's in the book. It's been
[01:12:35] serialized. So, come Tuesday. It's
[01:12:37] actually a rewrite of a book that she
[01:12:39] wrote many years ago called The
[01:12:40] Billionaires Playboy Club. So, there's
[01:12:42] nothing new there, but of course, it
[01:12:43] just brought everything back in detail.
[01:12:45] Uh, the sleaziness of the whole thing.
[01:12:48] Uh, there is a more damaging book up
[01:12:50] next month called Blue Butterfly. Uh but
[01:12:53] we had also the the risk of more Epstein
[01:12:55] uh revelations uh victims speaking out
[01:12:58] on Capitol Hill uh depositions that were
[01:13:00] going to be unsealed. So uh I think that
[01:13:03] the the feeling was that this could only
[01:13:05] get worse and best to address it now
[01:13:07] rather than this drip drip feed which
[01:13:09] was undermining everyone's uh everyone's
[01:13:12] uh role in the monarchy.
[01:13:14] But from what you've said before that
[01:13:15] this won't draw a line under it.
[01:13:19] No, I I I don't think it will. Uh I I
[01:13:21] think we we may well see more pressure
[01:13:24] to get him out of Royal Lodge. The
[01:13:25] optics don't look very good for a
[01:13:26] non-working royal. He has a ironclad
[01:13:28] lease there and he's hanging in there as
[01:13:30] his last bit of royal status. But you
[01:13:32] know, I suspect pressure will be put on
[01:13:34] him. The pressure comes uh on what will
[01:13:37] happen to his daughters and and and
[01:13:38] their future within the royal family. I
[01:13:40] think that's that's how it's happening.
[01:13:42] Uh I I don't share Jenny Bond's um
[01:13:45] worries about the the daughters. I mean,
[01:13:47] the daughters have been involved in a
[01:13:48] lot of the money-making activities of
[01:13:50] the parents. Uh, and I think there are a
[01:13:52] lot of skeletons there still to come
[01:13:54] out. So, I don't see them taking a very
[01:13:56] active role in in the royal family in
[01:13:58] the near future.
[01:14:00] And Sarah Ferguson presumably will no
[01:14:02] longer be Duchess.
[01:14:05] Yes. I think we're no longer going to
[01:14:06] get her Duchess brand of biscuits or or
[01:14:08] or anything else. So, uh I and this, you
[01:14:11] know, she's been doing this for about 40
[01:14:13] years. Poor Megan has been trying to
[01:14:15] emulate her. were not very successfully.
[01:14:17] Uh, and I think this should be the end
[01:14:19] of Sarah Ferguson, but she has a habit
[01:14:20] of popping back. I mean, we think back
[01:14:22] to 2010, she was caught selling access
[01:14:25] to Andrew on film and still managed to
[01:14:27] come back. Uh, and even a few months
[01:14:29] ago, she was back in the royal box at
[01:14:31] Wimbledon, uh, and at Ascuit and and at
[01:14:34] Sandringham. So, uh, never say never
[01:14:36] with Sarah.
[01:14:38] And what material difference will this
[01:14:41] make to Prince Andrew giving up his his
[01:14:44] titles to his everyday life? Will it
[01:14:46] make a difference?
[01:14:47] Well, he he he he lives for his titles.
[01:14:49] It's what gives him his status. I mean,
[01:14:51] he signs off as a knight of the garter.
[01:14:52] He loves dressing up. Uh um but you
[01:14:55] know, he's Prince Andrew. He's a retired
[01:14:57] man. He can still go riding and and uh
[01:15:00] uh play golf and go shooting. Uh so in
[01:15:02] some ways his day-to-day life isn't
[01:15:04] going to change but you know clearly his
[01:15:06] reputation now is in tatins uh um and
[01:15:10] you know a lot of people are no longer
[01:15:12] wanting to be associated with him. So
[01:15:15] you know it is a it is a real fall from
[01:15:17] grace. I mean when we think that he was
[01:15:18] once the poster boy of the monarchy
[01:15:22] his actual statement says I will
[01:15:24] therefore no longer use my title or the
[01:15:27] honors which have been conferred upon
[01:15:29] me. Can we take it as read that that
[01:15:32] those titles have been taken away from
[01:15:35] him or he will just decide not to use
[01:15:38] them?
[01:15:39] Yes, I think it's the latter. I think
[01:15:40] it's a little bit of a fudge here. You
[01:15:42] know, he he hasn't had them removed. He
[01:15:43] hasn't really given them up. He's just
[01:15:45] saying he's not going to use them.
[01:15:49] Right. And I've in the letter also uh
[01:15:51] the statement he's given out, I always
[01:15:53] have uh and I will put my duty to my
[01:15:56] family and country first. and he says
[01:15:58] that he stands by his decision five
[01:15:59] years ago to stand back from um public
[01:16:02] life and also the the denials of the
[01:16:05] accusations against him.
[01:16:08] Well, I'm afraid, you know, I've learned
[01:16:10] in four years of research on this book
[01:16:11] not to believe a word he says. So, I
[01:16:13] mean that the evidence against him, his
[01:16:15] links with Virginia Jeffrey and others
[01:16:17] are pretty overwhelming. So, I mean, I
[01:16:19] don't know why he continues to deny
[01:16:20] those. Uh, and I think the problem is if
[01:16:22] he had actually put his family and the
[01:16:24] monarchy first many, many years ago, we
[01:16:27] wouldn't be in the crisis we're in now.
[01:16:31] Do you think at any point we might see
[01:16:33] an admission from Prince Andrew?
[01:16:36] No, I don't think it's in his nature.
[01:16:38] Uh, I mean, he's very stubborn. Uh, he's
[01:16:40] he's been he's leared through his life
[01:16:43] he could get away with things. Uh I mean
[01:16:45] the news light interview would have been
[01:16:46] an opportunity for example to for some
[01:16:49] sort of admission of at least sorrow
[01:16:51] about what had happened. Uh I don't
[01:16:53] think we're ever going to get that from
[01:16:54] him.
[01:16:55] Okay. Andrew Aloney, author of the rise
[01:16:57] and fall of the house of York. Thank you
[01:16:59] very much for speaking to us this
[01:17:00] evening.
[01:17:01] Thank you.
[01:17:04] Let's bring in Sky Alice Porter now
[01:17:06] who's uh with me in the the studio. Uh
[01:17:08] and Alice, any more uh development this
[01:17:11] evening since we've had the statement
[01:17:12] from Prince Andrew? Are we likely to
[01:17:14] hear at all from the royal family this
[01:17:16] evening?
[01:17:16] No. I think we've heard we've got a
[01:17:19] statement from the royal family that's
[01:17:20] been shared with the press giving
[01:17:22] details of this new arrangement really
[01:17:25] and making it very clear that this comes
[01:17:27] with immediate effect. Uh what's also
[01:17:30] interesting is what we understand from
[01:17:33] uh what the palace have told us is that
[01:17:35] the prince of Wales was also consulted
[01:17:38] on this decision as was other members of
[01:17:41] the royal family as well. It certainly
[01:17:44] is trying to give an impression that
[01:17:45] this is that the royal family is unified
[01:17:48] on this but clearly uh they they can't
[01:17:52] be really. I mean, the royal family is
[01:17:54] both a family and an institution and and
[01:17:57] Prince Andrew has been able to continue
[01:17:59] to be a Duke of York for some time now.
[01:18:02] Of course, it was back in 2022 that he
[01:18:06] relinquished his Royal Highness or HR
[01:18:08] amid the civil case revolving around
[01:18:12] Virginia Jaffrey uh which he was
[01:18:14] eventually settled without admitting any
[01:18:16] wrongdoing but of course spent millions
[01:18:19] of pounds in that settlement. Now at the
[01:18:23] all his military honors and patronage
[01:18:25] they were all taken off him by his late
[01:18:29] mother mother Queen Elizabeth. though he
[01:18:31] has been a sort of persona nongrata
[01:18:34] really for the royal family for a number
[01:18:36] of years now but we've now got it this
[01:18:38] sort of official statement really from
[01:18:42] Prince Andrew and certainly for the
[01:18:44] royal family a sense that they're trying
[01:18:45] to be very clear and trying to really
[01:18:48] almost draw a line under the issue the
[01:18:50] question is will it
[01:18:52] that is the the question and one that
[01:18:54] that as you heard I raised with the uh
[01:18:56] previous guest who who seem to think
[01:18:58] that there potentially will be more
[01:19:00] revelation that that that come out and
[01:19:02] this will not be the the end of the the
[01:19:04] entire affair.
[01:19:04] Well, certainly we've got Virginia
[01:19:06] Grey's book coming out on Tuesday. I
[01:19:09] mean, Virginia Def Fray who who took her
[01:19:11] own life. Of course, she's had always uh
[01:19:15] alleged that she'd had sex with Prince
[01:19:18] Andrew having been trafficked by
[01:19:19] Epstein. Now, Prince Andrew always
[01:19:22] denied those allegations and and will
[01:19:25] continue to do so. But to have her book
[01:19:28] coming out on Tuesday where we
[01:19:30] understand excerpts from it said that
[01:19:32] Prince Andrew believed having sex with
[01:19:34] me was his birthright. I mean to have
[01:19:37] that sort of language used to describe a
[01:19:39] me member of the royal family the day
[01:19:42] before the king is going to be going to
[01:19:45] the Vatican city and going to be praying
[01:19:47] alongside the pope for the first time a
[01:19:50] British monarch has done that in over
[01:19:53] 500 years since Henry VII broke from
[01:19:56] Rome. I mean, that is a a huge contrast
[01:19:59] there and not a a very uh happy contrast
[01:20:02] for the royal family to have this
[01:20:04] continued scandal that just keeps on
[01:20:06] going each week. There's more details.
[01:20:09] So, for some people watching this, they
[01:20:10] may feel this has come a little out the
[01:20:12] blue. But I think anyone who's got their
[01:20:13] ears tuned to gossip and whispers in
[01:20:17] relation to the royal family, this isn't
[01:20:18] that surprising because of course we've
[01:20:20] heard over the last couple of weeks both
[01:20:23] his ex-wife uh Sarah Ferguson embroiled
[01:20:26] in issues to do with her friendship with
[01:20:29] Jeffrey Epstein with emails calling him
[01:20:32] her supreme friend. And then again we
[01:20:35] have another emails that suggest that
[01:20:38] Prince Andrew continued his friendship
[01:20:40] with Jeffrey Epstein longer than he
[01:20:44] initially said. He initially said he
[01:20:45] broke off the friendship back in 2010.
[01:20:48] These emails suggest he continued up
[01:20:50] until 2011 and continued suggested there
[01:20:52] was a friendship and saying we're in
[01:20:55] this together. Again, this is this is
[01:20:57] extraordinary for a member of the royal
[01:20:59] family to be saying that about a
[01:21:01] convicted pedophile. He was absolutely a
[01:21:03] convicted pedophile at the time. So you
[01:21:05] certainly get a sense that the the worry
[01:21:07] is that maybe more uh revelations to
[01:21:11] come to to come out and we know
[01:21:13] certainly Peter Mandlesson has said that
[01:21:14] that he's concerned that there could be
[01:21:16] more uh details emerging about emails
[01:21:20] that are coming out certainly from the
[01:21:21] US. So you get a sense that the royal
[01:21:22] family are trying to perhaps stop that
[01:21:25] in its tracks any further.
[01:21:27] And certainly the infamous interview
[01:21:29] that he gave to the BBC in which he he
[01:21:32] said that he no longer had contact with
[01:21:35] Jeffrey Epstein which was proved
[01:21:37] incorrect once these emails came to
[01:21:40] light. I mean that's shown him to be not
[01:21:42] truthful.
[01:21:43] Yes. And I I think it was also I mean
[01:21:45] that interview was so extraordinary in
[01:21:47] in so many ways. The way in which he's
[01:21:50] said he flew to New York to break up his
[01:21:52] friendship with Jeffrey Epstein in the
[01:21:54] first place. I mean that was always
[01:21:55] something I think anyone watching it you
[01:21:56] think well if somebody who's a convicted
[01:21:59] pedophile you to to go and go to that
[01:22:02] efforts it I don't think anyone ever
[01:22:04] really bought that. There was so many
[01:22:05] aspects of that interview that didn't
[01:22:06] really seem convincing and so therefore
[01:22:08] to then find out from these emails that
[01:22:10] they continue to stay in contact. I
[01:22:12] think the problem is it's maybe not
[01:22:13] really that surprising to people who
[01:22:15] watch the interview and have been
[01:22:16] closely following events. Okay, Alice,
[01:22:18] for the moment, thank you. Let's speak
[01:22:21] now to royal writer Ian Lloyd. Good
[01:22:24] evening to you. Welcome.
[01:22:25] Hello, Jillian. Hi.
[01:22:27] Your your thoughts on uh the uh
[01:22:29] revelations this evening and the the
[01:22:32] news that the Duke Well, I was going to
[01:22:34] say the Duke of York, but I think it's
[01:22:35] it's with immediate effect
[01:22:37] the former Duke of York was uh giving up
[01:22:40] his titles. Yeah, I mean most of us in
[01:22:42] life would like an upward trajectory.
[01:22:44] We'd like to start as nobody and end up
[01:22:46] as Sir David Atenburgh or Judy Dench.
[01:22:48] You know, he's gone the other way. I
[01:22:50] mean, I'm old I'm his age and I I'm old
[01:22:52] enough to remember the Randy Andy years
[01:22:54] when he was the the pinup of the royal
[01:22:56] family. And then in the 80s, his service
[01:22:59] in the Faullands. My late dad wasn't a
[01:23:02] great royalist, but he adored Andrew. He
[01:23:04] thought Andrew was the greatest because
[01:23:06] of that service to his country, you
[01:23:08] know. And um it's just gone downhill
[01:23:11] rapidly and it's uh you know a great
[01:23:15] shame for him that he can't he he didn't
[01:23:17] he he got involved in this way because
[01:23:19] if he was a working royal now he would
[01:23:21] be invaluable because of um it's they're
[01:23:24] limited in numbers and he could have
[01:23:27] done things like the anniversary of the
[01:23:28] Falklands in 2022 the 40th anniversary
[01:23:31] and things like that. So he he's um it's
[01:23:34] a huge fall from grace and it's
[01:23:37] difficult to know what he's going to do
[01:23:38] because you or I could pack our bags and
[01:23:40] go off to you know Alaska or somewhere
[01:23:42] but he can't because wherever he goes
[01:23:45] he'll be found and and um and dogged by
[01:23:48] the press you know so it's um it's his c
[01:23:52] his future is very uncertain I would
[01:23:54] say.
[01:23:55] Did did you see it coming though?
[01:23:58] What the the the title? Um well, yes, it
[01:24:01] was building up and and um I think the
[01:24:04] people of York had said that they didn't
[01:24:05] want him as their duke. Um again,
[01:24:08] unfortunately, it's got a great history,
[01:24:10] you know, because the second son of the
[01:24:12] monarch has been Duke of York. I mean,
[01:24:14] Henry VIII was the second son and he was
[01:24:16] Duke of York. The late Queen's father
[01:24:19] was the Duke of York and her
[01:24:20] grandfather, George V, was Duke of York.
[01:24:22] All second sons, you know. Um so, it's
[01:24:24] got an impressive history. So, uh, I
[01:24:27] think it would be more difficult if the
[01:24:29] late queen was around. I think she would
[01:24:30] be heartbroken about having to do it.
[01:24:33] But, but but both she and Charles are
[01:24:35] very, um, keen to overall to protect the
[01:24:38] monarchy. So, they've got to, uh,
[01:24:40] they've got to do this kind of thing,
[01:24:42] no matter how much it hurts.
[01:24:44] And in your estimation, do you believe
[01:24:46] that this was the king's decision rather
[01:24:48] than a a voluntary decision made by
[01:24:51] Andrew himself?
[01:24:52] Certainly, it wasn't voluntary. I would
[01:24:54] think it's the king and possibly with
[01:24:56] the help of Prince Ed beggy pardon
[01:24:59] Prince William because the two of them
[01:25:01] met at Bal Moral I think last month and
[01:25:03] um for one of their regular meetings
[01:25:05] that they have in the summer and um
[01:25:07] William in 2022 um said that he wouldn't
[01:25:11] take part in the procession of the
[01:25:13] garter knights if if Andrew was taking
[01:25:17] part. So at the last minute the late
[01:25:18] queen in her last year of her life was
[01:25:21] forced to make Andrew stand down. So he
[01:25:23] attended the lunch but he didn't go in
[01:25:25] the procession because William said if
[01:25:26] he did then he wouldn't attend you know
[01:25:29] so I I think he's probably had a an
[01:25:32] input as well and I think the Duke
[01:25:34] mentioned the Prince Andrew rather
[01:25:36] mentions in the statement the wider
[01:25:37] family in consultation with the wider
[01:25:40] family. So I think I take it to be
[01:25:43] William myself with with the king.
[01:25:46] Yes. He says I've decided as I always
[01:25:48] have to put my duty to my family and
[01:25:50] country first. I stand by my decision 5
[01:25:52] years ago to stand back from public life
[01:25:55] with his majesty's agreement. We feel I
[01:25:58] must now go a step further. I will
[01:26:00] therefore no longer use my title or the
[01:26:02] honors which have been conferred upon
[01:26:04] me. As I have said previously, I
[01:26:06] vigorously deny the accusations
[01:26:09] against me. So uh no apology still as
[01:26:13] was marked upon in that infamous BBC
[01:26:15] interview. Uh still no apology and still
[01:26:18] a denial. No, I mean there's no remorse
[01:26:20] at all. There never has been. And that's
[01:26:22] the only way you can ever come back. I
[01:26:24] mean, the most famous case that I can
[01:26:26] remember is is John Proffumo after the
[01:26:28] um the Profumo scandal in the 60s, spent
[01:26:31] the next 30 years doing charity work and
[01:26:33] and getting so rehabilitated that uh he
[01:26:37] was at Mrs. Thatch's uh 70th birthday
[01:26:40] party and sat next to the queen. Um so
[01:26:43] he he got back into favor by doing that
[01:26:45] after a huge disgrace in the 60s. you.
[01:26:48] It's the only way you can do it is to
[01:26:49] show total remorse. I mean, in his
[01:26:51] statement, if he'd mentioned, you know,
[01:26:53] the sex trafficking and Epstein again
[01:26:55] and said how he wished it had never
[01:26:58] happened or something, but, you know, he
[01:27:00] just didn't. And that's that that's the
[01:27:02] man. I mean, he's he's arrogant and
[01:27:04] entitled as as everybody's been saying
[01:27:07] in the last few hours.
[01:27:10] Apart from showing remorse, is there
[01:27:12] anything that that he could do now to
[01:27:15] redeem himself, do you think?
[01:27:17] I think just that I mean quietly get on
[01:27:20] with um some sort of charity work or
[01:27:22] something. But I mean I I oddly enough
[01:27:25] last saw him at the Duchess of Kent's
[01:27:27] funeral. I was outside the Westminster
[01:27:29] Cathedral. She was fantastic because she
[01:27:32] dropped very quietly dropped her HR and
[01:27:35] she became a music teacher in Hull um
[01:27:38] and got on with a very quiet life. But
[01:27:40] before that she worked for the um
[01:27:42] Samaritans and um very quietly in an
[01:27:45] understated way. And then suddenly you
[01:27:47] look back and think, "Wow, she's been
[01:27:49] doing it for years." I mean, Princess
[01:27:50] Anne was the is the great example in the
[01:27:52] 70s, early '7s. She was had a terrible
[01:27:55] reputation. She was Princess Sourpus in
[01:27:57] a tour of America. She was a dead loss.
[01:28:01] But she got her invaluable reputation by
[01:28:05] just hard work. And you look back and
[01:28:07] you think, my god, she's been going to
[01:28:09] Africa for 10 years. She's been doing
[01:28:10] this, that, and the other, you know. But
[01:28:12] you have to put in that effort and you
[01:28:15] have to be um sort of humble enough to
[01:28:18] do it and he's just not really I don't
[01:28:20] think.
[01:28:22] How do you think Prince Andrew's life
[01:28:24] will will change as of tomorrow? Then
[01:28:26] this takes effect immediately. But but
[01:28:29] how will his his practical day-to-day
[01:28:31] life changed, do you think?
[01:28:33] I don't know. I mean, he's in Royal
[01:28:34] Lodge. that that seems to be where he's
[01:28:36] staying because he's got this agreement
[01:28:38] with the um with the um crown estate and
[01:28:43] providing he can afford it then he can
[01:28:45] stay there but I mean to be honest it's
[01:28:47] the most glorious open prison that you
[01:28:49] can imagine because he can't do anything
[01:28:51] else. I mean, he's um the only thing he
[01:28:54] does at the moment is occasionally go
[01:28:56] riding in Windsor Great Park once or
[01:28:59] twice a week and the rest of the time
[01:29:01] apparently he's at Royal Lodge watching
[01:29:04] TV or something. But um it's very very
[01:29:06] difficult because to know how he can
[01:29:08] come back and and what he can do because
[01:29:11] um I say he's sort of trapped in that
[01:29:13] area and the same with with Sarah you
[01:29:16] know I mean the it's very difficult one
[01:29:19] suggestion is he could write a book but
[01:29:21] then would that help him I don't know I
[01:29:24] mean it'll earn some money but would it
[01:29:26] it certainly wouldn't help the royal
[01:29:27] family so he would probably want to
[01:29:29] avoid that but that that's the only
[01:29:31] solution I can see
[01:29:34] he's spoken statement about not wanting
[01:29:36] to be a distraction from the the work of
[01:29:38] of the royal family. But but how do you
[01:29:40] think this will affect his own children?
[01:29:44] Well, I mean, your heart goes out to
[01:29:45] them. Jenny Bond was saying that. I
[01:29:47] mean, you feel so sorry. I I know people
[01:29:49] who know the the the daughters and they
[01:29:53] say that they're, you know, great but
[01:29:55] really nice girls and um and
[01:29:58] unblenmished and very loyal to their
[01:30:00] parents, but it puts them in a terrible
[01:30:02] position as well. So um and as I said
[01:30:07] earlier at a time when the royal family
[01:30:08] is very depleted that people could be
[01:30:10] looking to Beatric and Euenei for help
[01:30:12] as as working royals and uh
[01:30:15] grandchildren of Elizabeth II. So um it
[01:30:18] puts them in a terrible position and and
[01:30:21] um the divided loyalty because of course
[01:30:23] they must love their parents as we all
[01:30:25] do and uh at the same time are terribly
[01:30:29] embarrassed by this this whole
[01:30:30] situation.
[01:30:33] Ian Lloyd Royal writer, thank you very
[01:30:35] much for speaking to us this evening.
[01:30:37] Thank you.
[01:30:39] It's 8:30. If you're just joining us,
[01:30:42] let me remind you of the breaking news
[01:30:43] this evening. Prince Andrew has
[01:30:45] announced that he's giving up his royal
[01:30:47] titles. He says accusations about him
[01:30:50] have become a distraction from the royal
[01:30:52] family. In a statement, Prince Andrew
[01:30:55] wrote, "In discussion with the king and
[01:30:57] my immediate and wider family, we have
[01:30:59] concluded the continued accusations
[01:31:01] about me distract from the work of his
[01:31:04] majesty and the royal family. I have
[01:31:07] decided, as I always have, to put my
[01:31:09] duty to my family and country first.
[01:31:13] I stand by my decision five years ago to
[01:31:16] stand back from public life. With His
[01:31:18] Majesty's agreement, we feel I must now
[01:31:21] go a step further. I will therefore no
[01:31:23] longer use my title or the honors which
[01:31:25] have been conferred upon me. As I have
[01:31:28] said previously, I vigorously deny the
[01:31:30] accusations against me.
[01:31:34] A little earlier, my colleague Barbara
[01:31:35] Sarah spoke to our royal correspondent
[01:31:37] Rihanna Mills.
[01:31:44] This is quite an extraordinary move and
[01:31:46] I think it shows that actually things
[01:31:48] had gone too far. Prince Andrew and
[01:31:51] allegations about him and Virginia Frey
[01:31:54] were continuing to be too much of a
[01:31:56] distraction for the royal family. Um a
[01:31:59] few more details that I can tell you. Um
[01:32:02] this decision um basically was taken in
[01:32:06] conjunction with the king. Yes, it was
[01:32:08] the prince's decision, but with very
[01:32:10] close consultation with the king
[01:32:12] involved. Um, and we understand that the
[01:32:15] king is glad of this outcome. Um, this
[01:32:18] change comes into effect immediately.
[01:32:21] So, from this moment, he no longer holds
[01:32:23] those titles. Um, the decision was taken
[01:32:26] in recognition of the fact that the
[01:32:28] prince's personal issues have continued
[01:32:30] to be um what has been described as an
[01:32:33] unwelcome distraction from the wider
[01:32:35] work of the royal family. And we've seen
[01:32:37] that consistently I think over well I
[01:32:40] first started reporting on this around
[01:32:41] 10 years ago and it really has kind of
[01:32:44] punctuated and been there in the
[01:32:46] background um ever since. Um of course
[01:32:49] there there was continuing discussions
[01:32:50] about what could the king do in terms of
[01:32:52] of Prince Andrew and one thing that
[01:32:54] people have pointed to is the fact that
[01:32:55] he continues to live on the Windsor
[01:32:57] estate at Royal Lodge. We understand
[01:33:00] that he will continue to to live there.
[01:33:03] He has got a private teny agreement with
[01:33:05] the crown estate. So, we don't believe
[01:33:07] that that will change. Um, is he still a
[01:33:10] duke? No. All his titles, including the
[01:33:12] Duke of York, will not be used anymore.
[01:33:15] However, he will still be known as
[01:33:17] Prince Andrew because he remains the son
[01:33:20] of Queen Elizabeth II. Um, so in
[01:33:23] accordance with the letters patents um
[01:33:26] that were updated by Queen Elizabeth the
[01:33:27] second in 2012, he will still stay as of
[01:33:30] as of Prince. um the title of HR is
[01:33:34] already inactive. That was that was
[01:33:36] taken away some time ago. What does this
[01:33:38] mean for other members of his family?
[01:33:40] So, for example, the Duchess of York,
[01:33:43] Sarah Ferguson. Um for many years, we're
[01:33:46] told that in a professional capacity,
[01:33:47] she hasn't really used that that Duchess
[01:33:49] of York title. Um but she will no longer
[01:33:52] be known at all as the Duchess of York.
[01:33:55] um Princess Beatatrice and Princess
[01:33:57] Eujenei um their position is as
[01:34:01] princesses is entirely unaffected by
[01:34:04] this in terms of Prince Andrew being a
[01:34:06] counselor of state. Now a counselor of
[01:34:08] state act on behalf of the king in um a
[01:34:11] limited defined capacity um if they have
[01:34:15] to step in on behalf of the king. It's
[01:34:16] already been made clear though in the
[01:34:18] past that non- workinging members of the
[01:34:20] royal family. So for example, Prince
[01:34:21] Andrew, Prince Harry don't act as um
[01:34:24] counselors of state. Um in terms of of
[01:34:28] course we have increasingly seen Prince
[01:34:30] Andrew appear at some family occasions,
[01:34:33] most recently um the funeral for the
[01:34:35] Duchess of Kent. Um what will happen for
[01:34:38] other family occasions, we're not sure.
[01:34:40] Um but he isn't going to attend royal
[01:34:42] family Christmas celebrations. Um, so
[01:34:45] yeah, just to confirm in Prince Andrew's
[01:34:48] own words, he says, "I stand by my
[01:34:50] decision five years ago to stand back
[01:34:52] from public life and with his majesty's
[01:34:56] agreement, we feel I must now go a step
[01:34:58] further. I'll therefore no longer use my
[01:35:00] title or the honors which been conferred
[01:35:03] upon me." But what he does very clearly
[01:35:05] say in that statement as we've continued
[01:35:09] to hear those allegations against him,
[01:35:11] he says, "I vigorously deny the
[01:35:13] accusations against me."
[01:35:17] Rian, you hinted at this at the
[01:35:19] beginning, but just remind us what the
[01:35:21] main issues are around Prince Andrew's
[01:35:24] personal life that may have led to this
[01:35:26] decision.
[01:35:28] So it was it was 10 years ago that we
[01:35:31] start first started reporting on the
[01:35:33] name of Virginia Dupra who made those
[01:35:36] allegations
[01:35:38] um sexual abuse allegations against uh
[01:35:41] Prince Andrew. Of course we then fast
[01:35:44] forward to 2019 when he gave that news
[01:35:47] interview when he
[01:35:50] vehemently denied those allegations
[01:35:52] against him. Of course, there has of
[01:35:55] course been the spectre of Jeffrey
[01:35:57] Epstein that's continued to to hang over
[01:35:59] him as well. Only in in the last week,
[01:36:02] uh, a newspaper reported on an email
[01:36:05] that was sent to Jeffrey Epstein from
[01:36:08] Prince Andrew. Um, despite it being a
[01:36:11] time in which Prince Andrew said that he
[01:36:13] had cut ties with the convicted
[01:36:16] pedophile. And also I think with that
[01:36:18] News Night interview, Prince Andrew
[01:36:20] always refused to apologize for being
[01:36:22] friends with Jeffrey Epstein and that
[01:36:24] continued to also hang over him. Um, as
[01:36:27] well also this week on Tuesday, we're
[01:36:31] due to see published a book by Virginia
[01:36:34] Dupra. Um, she took her own life uh in
[01:36:37] the last year and and yet her book is
[01:36:40] still going to be released and so we
[01:36:42] wait to see exactly what is likely to
[01:36:44] come out um of that book. So, it has
[01:36:47] been a very unwelcome distraction for
[01:36:50] the royal family that has continued to
[01:36:52] to hang over them. Of course, also in
[01:36:54] recent weeks, we've had Sarah Ferguson
[01:36:56] again also being being pulled into to
[01:36:58] the situation as well with an email that
[01:37:01] she sent to Jeffrey Epstein. It seemed
[01:37:02] apologizing to him, although she at the
[01:37:05] time and her advisers said it was
[01:37:06] because she was being
[01:37:09] um blackmailed by him. Um but yeah, it
[01:37:11] is still extraordinary that it's come to
[01:37:13] a stage where actually Prince Andrew has
[01:37:16] has now in some ways fallen on his sword
[01:37:19] and I think probably heavily leaned on
[01:37:23] by the king has decided that he would
[01:37:25] give up those final vestigages if you
[01:37:28] like um of of those royal titles um
[01:37:31] which we've consistently seen being
[01:37:33] chipped away uh over over recent years.
[01:37:41] Well, Barbara also spoke to the former
[01:37:43] royal correspondent Jenny Bond to get
[01:37:44] her reaction to Andrew's announcement.
[01:37:48] It had become become quite untenable
[01:37:50] that the situation could go on as it was
[01:37:51] day after day of headlines distracting
[01:37:54] as Andrew himself says um in his
[01:37:56] statement from the work that the royal
[01:37:58] family are doing. I'm I'm struck by the
[01:38:01] use of the pronoun we, the king, my
[01:38:04] immediate family and wider family. We
[01:38:06] have concluded that the continued
[01:38:08] accusations against me uh distract from
[01:38:11] the work of his majesty and he uses we
[01:38:13] against later. This is a clear
[01:38:15] indication that extreme pressure has
[01:38:18] been put on Prince Andrew to do if you
[01:38:21] like the decent thing to fall on his
[01:38:23] sword. I think if he hadn't fallen on
[01:38:25] his sword, he would have been pushed uh
[01:38:27] very firmly onto it. Uh it could not go
[01:38:30] on all these headlines which are indeed
[01:38:33] distracting from the work of the family.
[01:38:35] Um, and I think there have been some
[01:38:38] very uh pointed words obviously between
[01:38:41] Charles and I think William very much in
[01:38:43] the background putting the pressure on
[01:38:46] Andrew to do what most of us would see
[01:38:49] as the decent thing. I'm also struck by
[01:38:51] the fact he says I I will give up my
[01:38:53] title. Um uh I won't use my title. He's
[01:38:56] not actually giving it up. He's he's not
[01:38:58] not going to use his title. uh by which
[01:39:01] he must refer to the duked I suppose
[01:39:03] which was conferred on him by uh his
[01:39:06] mother in 1986 when he married Sarah
[01:39:08] Ferguson who will no longer be a
[01:39:10] duchess. I mean he's also Baron Kille
[01:39:13] and the Earl of Invenesse and I have no
[01:39:14] doubt that he won't be using those
[01:39:16] either. Um so I think it is uh what we
[01:39:21] the public really wanted to see happen.
[01:39:24] Um and I think there'd be relief at the
[01:39:26] palace that this has finally taken
[01:39:28] place.
[01:39:30] Uh Jenny, Prince Andrew has obviously
[01:39:32] been a problematic figure for the royal
[01:39:34] family for a long time. He stood back
[01:39:37] from public life uh five years ago. What
[01:39:40] would you say, if you think there was
[01:39:42] one, was the tipping point that has led
[01:39:44] us here?
[01:39:46] Yeah. You say he stood back five years
[01:39:47] ago. He makes reference to that in his
[01:39:49] statement that I stand by my decision to
[01:39:52] stand back from public duties. Well,
[01:39:54] that was not his decision. That was his
[01:39:57] late mother's decision. who reluctantly,
[01:40:00] albeit reluctantly, she sacked her son
[01:40:02] because of his news disastrous news um
[01:40:06] interview. Um and I I think that uh from
[01:40:10] now on I I don't know what role he's
[01:40:13] going to have um in in well he'll have
[01:40:16] no role in public life. Whether we will
[01:40:17] see him privately, I really really don't
[01:40:20] know. Um, I think the tipping point has
[01:40:23] been this uh culmination of headline
[01:40:26] after headline and today photographs of
[01:40:28] him uh with uh a man associated with the
[01:40:33] possible Chinese spy scandal that really
[01:40:36] I think has been the last straw. Uh but
[01:40:39] day after day, in fact, year after year,
[01:40:42] you could even say decade after decade
[01:40:44] these rumors have swirled around Andrew.
[01:40:47] I reported uh back in 2001 on the rumors
[01:40:52] about his friendship with the now we
[01:40:55] know convicted pedophile, the late
[01:40:57] Jeffrey Epstein. Um and it has just been
[01:41:01] drip drip drip of scandal after scandal.
[01:41:04] And when we discovered uh a few days ago
[01:41:07] that he had actually lied in his News
[01:41:10] night interview that he had not broken
[01:41:12] off his uh association with Jeffrey
[01:41:15] Epstein. And we now know that Sarah
[01:41:17] Ferguson also lied. She said she'd had
[01:41:20] no further contact and then wrote him a
[01:41:22] gushing letter. You cannot have two
[01:41:25] members of the royal family in any kind
[01:41:28] of public arena who are mendacious.
[01:41:32] And Jenny, do you think that this will
[01:41:34] be enough now for the public to stop the
[01:41:37] continued distractions from the work of
[01:41:39] the royal family?
[01:41:41] Well, it depends whether he pops his
[01:41:44] head above the parapit even at um
[01:41:47] private family occasions. Um and if he
[01:41:51] if he does go and you can't really stop
[01:41:52] a man going to for example a funeral of
[01:41:55] a relative or something like that. Um he
[01:41:58] needs not to stand at the front as he
[01:42:00] did with the Duchess of Kent's funeral.
[01:42:02] The pictures there we're seeing. He
[01:42:04] needs not to cidle up to his uh his
[01:42:08] nephew William and and try and make what
[01:42:10] appear to be joial comments. He needs to
[01:42:12] have a low profile, a very very low pro
[01:42:15] profile. And that might be enough. Um I
[01:42:20] mean he has been humiliated uh 5 years
[01:42:23] ago by being sacked by his mother. He's
[01:42:25] now been further humiliated by being uh
[01:42:29] persuaded, shall we say, by his his
[01:42:31] brother to uh give up his title.
[01:42:35] I don't know what happens next. I don't
[01:42:37] know how an ex duke conducts himself. I
[01:42:41] think it would be rather odd if he and
[01:42:44] Sarah Ferguson, that's who she is now,
[01:42:46] continue to live in this huge mansion,
[01:42:49] royal lodge that the king has been
[01:42:51] trying to dislodge him from for some
[01:42:53] time. Um, that could be a further
[01:42:56] development. We shall have to wait and
[01:42:57] see.
[01:42:58] And Jenny, what's been the impact of all
[01:43:00] of this on the royal family itself?
[01:43:03] Well, I think absolute despair really.
[01:43:05] Um, time and you know, they are out and
[01:43:08] about all over the place. Uh, trying to
[01:43:10] do what the royal family do, uh, bring
[01:43:14] attention to causes and campaigns, to
[01:43:16] issues and the people they visit. Um and
[01:43:19] it's all getting overshadowed by this
[01:43:22] lurid headlines day after day um of
[01:43:24] Andrew. I think that they are royally
[01:43:27] peed off by it all quite frankly. Um and
[01:43:31] I think now they just want to draw a
[01:43:33] line line under this um and get on with
[01:43:37] what they are really quite good at
[01:43:39] doing.
[01:43:41] And Jenny, as you were mentioning, it's
[01:43:42] a combination of factors that have led
[01:43:45] us here. So the continued links to
[01:43:47] Jeffrey Epstein, also to the Chinese spy
[01:43:49] scandal. Uh but also we do have a new
[01:43:52] monarch. So how crucial do you think it
[01:43:55] is that it was King Charles that was
[01:43:57] obviously involved in this decision?
[01:44:01] Well, as I say, his mother took a a very
[01:44:05] uh big decision uh when she sacked him
[01:44:08] from his role. That's when he stepped
[01:44:10] back from all royal duties and stopped
[01:44:12] using his HR. Um and I I think probably
[01:44:16] his older brother Charles to him is not
[01:44:18] particularly close hoped that that might
[01:44:20] be sufficient but it it became quite um
[01:44:24] inexcusable and untenable the number of
[01:44:28] headlines that were coming out. Um and
[01:44:30] so obviously he had to do do the deed.
[01:44:32] Though I think there was uh a lot of
[01:44:35] pressure coming from William as well who
[01:44:37] you know hasn't got those brotherly ties
[01:44:40] to Andrew and I think perhaps was uh
[01:44:44] slightly more ruthless in his attitude
[01:44:46] to what had to be done to protect the
[01:44:48] monarchy.
[01:44:50] And Jenny, what do you make of the
[01:44:52] impact that this will have on his
[01:44:53] closest relatives? So, um, well, his
[01:44:56] ex-wife Sarah Ferguson, but especially
[01:44:58] his daughters, Princesses Beatatrice and
[01:45:00] Eugenie.
[01:45:01] Well, Sarah and Andrew are very much in
[01:45:03] this together. Um, and whatever else you
[01:45:07] say about it, they are they have made a
[01:45:09] tremendous success of being a divorced
[01:45:12] couple and, uh, bringing up two very
[01:45:15] lovely young women. My heart goes out to
[01:45:18] Beatric and Eujenei. Clearly, it must be
[01:45:21] it must be heartbreaking for them to see
[01:45:23] their parents uh humiliated publicly in
[01:45:26] this way again because uh their young
[01:45:29] lives have been punctuated by scandals
[01:45:31] brought about by either Sarah or Andrew.
[01:45:34] But through thick and thin, they have
[01:45:36] stood by their parents and I've no doubt
[01:45:38] they will do so again. But it must be
[01:45:41] deeply distressing for them. Um, and as
[01:45:44] I say, what whatever you say about that
[01:45:46] couple, they they have remained close as
[01:45:48] a family and I'm sure they will uh
[01:45:50] hunker down now and uh comfort one
[01:45:53] another.
[01:45:55] Okay. And uh just I mean you know we we
[01:45:58] found out or at least it was announced
[01:46:00] what about half an hour ago. How
[01:46:03] surprising was the statement to you?
[01:46:06] Well, I think it well I I along with
[01:46:10] other columnists have been writing in
[01:46:11] newspapers this week that something had
[01:46:14] to happen. I mean, one particularly
[01:46:17] untenable part of of his role was that
[01:46:19] he remained um and I assume he will no
[01:46:24] longer remain a counselor of state. I
[01:46:26] think actually that does need
[01:46:27] clarifying. Councilors of state are uh a
[01:46:30] very small number of senior members of
[01:46:32] the royal family who can deputize for
[01:46:34] the monarch um if needs be. Um and
[01:46:38] although Charles has taken steps to
[01:46:40] slightly increase that number, thus uh
[01:46:43] reducing the likelihood of Andrew ever
[01:46:45] being called to do so, um I think that
[01:46:48] is quite an untenable situation now. So
[01:46:52] I don't know if he will be uh actually
[01:46:54] removed as councelor of state. Um but
[01:46:58] beyond that um we shall have to wait and
[01:47:01] see what happens with an ex duke.
[01:47:06] Let's bring in Afia Hagen now.
[01:47:08] journalist and royal commentator. Aia,
[01:47:10] did you see this coming?
[01:47:13] I did. I did. Look, look, we had just
[01:47:16] got to the point where enough was enough
[01:47:18] this week. We had so much swirling when
[01:47:21] it came to Chinese spies, when it came
[01:47:23] to the Epstein emails, when it came to
[01:47:25] the latest data dump, and of course this
[01:47:28] memoir by Virginia Duy, which is out in
[01:47:31] the coming days when we had the exc that
[01:47:34] dropped over the past 24 hours.
[01:47:36] Something had to be done. And I think
[01:47:39] the king and particularly Prince William
[01:47:41] decided that they needed to draw a line
[01:47:43] under this. was getting far too
[01:47:46] distracting that literally every week
[01:47:48] there would be something else coming out
[01:47:50] about Prince Andrew's past. So I think
[01:47:52] got to the point where enough was
[01:47:54] enough.
[01:47:55] And do you believe that he's been made
[01:47:57] to to take this this action?
[01:48:00] This is not something that Prince Andrew
[01:48:02] would want to do. When he relinquished
[01:48:04] his royal duties, when he gave up being
[01:48:07] a working royal, that was at the behest
[01:48:09] of Queen Elizabeth II. That's not
[01:48:11] something that he would want to do at
[01:48:13] all. I definitely think he would have
[01:48:15] clung on to these titles with his
[01:48:18] fingernails, would be fighting tooth and
[01:48:20] nail to keep them. I think King Charles
[01:48:22] III and Prince William piled on the
[01:48:23] pressure and said, "Look, either we do
[01:48:26] it this way or we go through the very
[01:48:28] long convoluted route in Parliament
[01:48:30] where we remove your titles from you."
[01:48:33] And he wouldn't want further
[01:48:35] embarrassment to him. Yes, to the
[01:48:37] family, but to him, right? And so I
[01:48:40] think definitely this is not something
[01:48:42] he would want to do. But a proposition
[01:48:45] was put to him that this is what we're
[01:48:47] going to do. This is what's going to
[01:48:49] happen. We do it the easy way or we do
[01:48:50] it the hard way and he chose the easy
[01:48:52] way.
[01:48:53] You've alluded to the fact that the uh
[01:48:55] negative stories have been piling up um
[01:48:57] have been uh seeping out day after day.
[01:49:00] Why do you think though overall that the
[01:49:02] decision has been taken at this point in
[01:49:04] time?
[01:49:05] I think we're entering a busy period for
[01:49:08] the royals. We've got King Charles III
[01:49:10] going to the Vatican City on Thursday.
[01:49:12] He's going to be praying with the Pope
[01:49:14] and that's a hugely significant moment,
[01:49:17] something that hasn't been done for, you
[01:49:18] know, hundreds of years. We've also got
[01:49:21] Prince William with the Earthshot Prize
[01:49:23] and Cop 30 coming up at the beginning of
[01:49:25] November. We've got Christmas at
[01:49:27] Sandringham coming up as well. It's a
[01:49:29] busy period for the royal family and
[01:49:31] this distraction was taking away from
[01:49:33] the good work that they are doing from
[01:49:34] the important work that they were doing
[01:49:36] and also from those important headlines
[01:49:39] that you know the royal family want us
[01:49:41] to be looking at and talking about
[01:49:44] rather than the latest email that Prince
[01:49:46] Andrew sent to Jeffrey Epstein. So I
[01:49:48] think they thought that you know what we
[01:49:50] need to try and draw a line under this
[01:49:53] but I think naively they think that this
[01:49:55] maybe is over but it's absolutely not. I
[01:49:58] think this is going to get worse before
[01:50:00] it gets better. There's more revelations
[01:50:02] are going to come whether it's from
[01:50:04] another data dump of Epstein files or
[01:50:07] whether it's from Virginia Drey's memoir
[01:50:09] which is out in the coming days. There
[01:50:11] is still more revelations to come but
[01:50:13] they want to distance themselves from
[01:50:15] him um so that their good work can be
[01:50:18] acknowledged can be talked about and he
[01:50:21] is kind of separate and that's difficult
[01:50:23] because he's still the king's brother
[01:50:25] you know he's still or was a senior
[01:50:27] working royal he cannot be separated
[01:50:30] from the family they also want to be
[01:50:31] seen to be taking action and that they
[01:50:34] are accountable and that they have done
[01:50:36] something about this but this doesn't
[01:50:38] negate from the fact that Prince Andrew
[01:50:40] who essentially lied to the British
[01:50:42] public, lied to the BBC and I think that
[01:50:44] needs to be really acknowledged as well
[01:50:47] and an apology should be given on behalf
[01:50:49] of Prince Andrew. But I don't think that
[01:50:51] will happen.
[01:50:53] No, there there hasn't been an apology
[01:50:55] from Prince Andrew himself. In his
[01:50:57] statement, he he actually says that he
[01:50:59] vigorously denies the accusations
[01:51:01] against him. There's no hint of an
[01:51:04] apology. Do you think that's a mistake
[01:51:06] on his part?
[01:51:07] Absolutely not. Prince Andrew stands by
[01:51:09] the fact that he denies all the
[01:51:11] allegations against him. I don't think
[01:51:13] he's self-aware enough to realize that
[01:51:15] perhaps he should apologize for any part
[01:51:18] of his involvement in any of these
[01:51:20] scandals. But the common denominator in
[01:51:23] these scandals is himself. But I don't
[01:51:26] think he's self-aware enough to realize
[01:51:28] that perhaps that apology might go a
[01:51:30] little way.
[01:51:33] Might he be forced to make an apology?
[01:51:35] And could we potentially see a general
[01:51:38] apology from the the royal family
[01:51:39] themselves?
[01:51:40] I think he might be forced to make an
[01:51:42] apology. I think perhaps he might wake
[01:51:44] up and realize that that might do
[01:51:46] something for him. I mean, he is the
[01:51:48] least popular royal. I don't know if an
[01:51:50] an apology may gain him some popularity.
[01:51:53] But at least if he takes accountability,
[01:51:55] that would be something. I don't think
[01:51:57] we will see an apology from the royal
[01:51:59] family on his behalf. The statement that
[01:52:01] came out came from him, not from
[01:52:03] Buckingham Palace or Kensington Palace
[01:52:05] or from the royal family. It was from
[01:52:07] him. So I don't think we'll see an
[01:52:09] apology from them either. We might see
[01:52:12] an apology from him, but I think that
[01:52:14] will be hard one if we get it.
[01:52:18] What do you benefits do you think the
[01:52:19] royal family is hoping to gain from uh
[01:52:22] distancing themselves from Prince Andrew
[01:52:25] and this statement coming out and the
[01:52:26] fact that he will no longer have any of
[01:52:28] his titles? Is it public perception that
[01:52:31] they're trying to change? What are they
[01:52:33] hoping to gain?
[01:52:34] Absolutely, Jillian. It is public
[01:52:36] perception. They want to be seen that
[01:52:38] they have done something, that they have
[01:52:40] perhaps been harsh on a family member
[01:52:42] who has brought scandal and shame upon
[01:52:44] them, that they are taking
[01:52:46] accountability, that they are doing
[01:52:49] something, you know, actioning something
[01:52:51] against him. It is about saving face at
[01:52:54] this point. And they hope that by doing
[01:52:56] that people will focus on what they are
[01:52:59] doing on their good works instead of
[01:53:01] just all this stuff that's swirling
[01:53:03] around Prince Andrew. But like I said,
[01:53:05] it's just not that easy. They cannot
[01:53:07] disassociate themselves from him because
[01:53:10] he is still the king's brother. And like
[01:53:12] I said, because this is far from over,
[01:53:14] there's still going to be more
[01:53:16] revelations to come. And so, yes,
[01:53:18] perhaps this will go a little way in
[01:53:20] people thinking, okay, they've tried to
[01:53:22] do something. They have been harsh
[01:53:23] towards him. Um, but is it enough? I
[01:53:26] don't think so. Some people might say
[01:53:28] it's too little, too late. Also,
[01:53:31] as you allude to there, there might be
[01:53:33] more revelations to to come. How can he
[01:53:36] further be punished, though?
[01:53:39] Well, that's a really good question.
[01:53:40] Could he be kicked out of Royal Lodge?
[01:53:43] Well, no, because he is at least there
[01:53:45] until 2078, I think it is, and that's a
[01:53:48] private lease. um he can't really have
[01:53:50] the title of prince taken away from him
[01:53:52] because that's something that was given
[01:53:53] to him upon his birth. He hasn't been
[01:53:56] invited to Christmas at Sandringham. You
[01:53:58] know, he will not be front and center
[01:54:01] anymore at royal family events and
[01:54:03] actually hasn't been for a while. Yes,
[01:54:05] we did see him at the Duchess of Kent's
[01:54:07] funeral over the summer. Um but I don't
[01:54:10] think there is anything more really that
[01:54:13] the royal family could do. I mean, they
[01:54:15] could go through that long parliamentary
[01:54:17] process to have his titles taken away
[01:54:19] from him officially in that way, but
[01:54:21] that's not something that they want to
[01:54:23] do and that's not something that he
[01:54:24] wants to happen either. So, at this
[01:54:27] point, they kind of have done everything
[01:54:28] that they can do. He could potentially
[01:54:31] apologize like we've discussed, but I
[01:54:33] think that's probably it.
[01:54:36] Afia Hagen, thank you so much for your
[01:54:38] insight and expertise, journalist and
[01:54:40] royal commentator. Thank you.
[01:54:43] A little earlier, Barbara Sarah spoke to
[01:54:45] Jack Royston, chief royal correspondent
[01:54:48] at Newsweek.
[01:54:50] Well, I think actually this does not go
[01:54:52] far enough because what the British
[01:54:54] public actually really need here is an
[01:54:56] acknowledgement from the royal family
[01:54:58] that irrespective of whether Prince
[01:55:01] Andrew denies the substantive
[01:55:03] allegations against him, it was morally
[01:55:05] wrong for him to grovel to Jeffrey
[01:55:08] Epstein and thorn over Jeffrey Epstein
[01:55:10] and also Sarah Ferguson too, saying
[01:55:12] that, you know, she thanked him from her
[01:55:14] heart and that he was a supreme friend
[01:55:16] to them. Um, I think there needs to be
[01:55:19] some kind of an acknowledgement, ideally
[01:55:20] that Andrew misled the public. They
[01:55:22] would not want to go so far as to say
[01:55:24] that he lied, but it he misled Emily
[01:55:26] Matelets when he said to her in that
[01:55:28] interview in 2019 and that he had no
[01:55:31] further contact with Epstein after
[01:55:33] December 2010 when we now know from the
[01:55:36] emails that have been um published that
[01:55:38] he did. Um, and so the the wording of
[01:55:41] this statement is still very much
[01:55:43] couched in terms that Andrew is doing
[01:55:45] this because otherwise it distracts from
[01:55:48] the good work that the monarchy does.
[01:55:50] And the problem is that that's not how
[01:55:52] the public see it. What the public see
[01:55:54] here is a a figure in public life who
[01:55:58] has acted in a way that is morally
[01:56:00] unforgivable. That go that is beyond the
[01:56:03] pale. The problem here for the monarchy
[01:56:05] that is causing huge reputational
[01:56:07] damage, particularly among young people,
[01:56:10] um is that there's never been an
[01:56:11] acknowledgement from the royal family
[01:56:13] that Andrew has actually done something
[01:56:15] morally wrong. And we're at a point now
[01:56:18] where you can unequivocally make draw
[01:56:20] that conclusion without having to rule
[01:56:24] in any way on whether Virginia Jeffy's
[01:56:26] allegations are true or not because it
[01:56:28] is uh very straightforwardly morally
[01:56:31] objectionable to um you know everyone in
[01:56:34] Britain effectively that you don't go
[01:56:36] and form to people who are convicted
[01:56:38] pedophiles. Andrew knew that Epstein was
[01:56:40] a convicted pedophile when he sent the
[01:56:42] email in February 2011 that was um
[01:56:47] recently published in which he said, you
[01:56:48] know, we're in this together and we'll
[01:56:49] just have to rise above it.
[01:56:52] Um you've just said that you don't think
[01:56:55] this goes far enough. If we look at the
[01:56:57] statement from Prince Andrew, he says
[01:56:59] specifically that he wants this to to
[01:57:01] stop uh for him to stop being a
[01:57:03] distraction from the work uh of the
[01:57:06] royal family and and the king. Do you
[01:57:08] think that this action will fail to
[01:57:10] achieve that?
[01:57:12] I think it's it has a benefit which is
[01:57:16] it shows that the king wants to go
[01:57:18] further than than he's gone before. So
[01:57:20] that's a positive thing and it sounds
[01:57:21] like we're not going to see Andrew at
[01:57:24] Christmas. Hopefully that means ever
[01:57:26] again. I mean, you know, I think I think
[01:57:28] you know the understanding is that he
[01:57:30] certainly won't be there at Christmas
[01:57:31] this year. There's still Easter to think
[01:57:33] about. Um we don't know for sure whether
[01:57:35] he's going to appear then. But if this
[01:57:37] does uh mean effectively that we will
[01:57:40] never see Andrew photographed with
[01:57:42] Charles and William and senior royals
[01:57:44] ever again, then that will certainly
[01:57:46] help. But I do think that there is a
[01:57:48] major missing piece of the puzzle here
[01:57:49] for the royal family, which is that um
[01:57:52] you know they are they have been
[01:57:53] photographed and filmed on camera very
[01:57:55] recently um being you know standing with
[01:57:59] Andrew at the Duchess of Kent's funeral.
[01:58:01] Charles was, you know, William blanked
[01:58:03] Andrew, but Charles seemed to be
[01:58:04] chatting with him and they seemed to be
[01:58:06] laughing together. Um, now from the
[01:58:08] public's point of view, Andrew is
[01:58:10] completely radioactive. He has uh his
[01:58:14] reputation is is down there in the pit
[01:58:16] of where Vladimir Putin is in terms of
[01:58:18] the polling. Um but the you know the
[01:58:21] other bit of this um is that the
[01:58:24] documentary evidence that has come out
[01:58:26] recently does get us to a point where
[01:58:29] even if you can't say for sure that
[01:58:32] Virginia Jeffy's allegations are true,
[01:58:35] it is still objectively to the
[01:58:38] overwhelming majority of British people
[01:58:41] morally reprehensible
[01:58:43] um to speak to Jeffrey Epstein in the
[01:58:46] way that Andrew did in an email. Um and
[01:58:50] uh there's been no acknowledgement that
[01:58:52] he has definitively done something
[01:58:54] wrong. I mean I think that is the big
[01:58:56] mismatch between how the public sees
[01:58:58] this now and how it's still being
[01:59:00] discussed in this statement. The
[01:59:02] statement is very much this is all a
[01:59:04] great big distraction. I still think I'm
[01:59:06] innocent but it's you know let's focus
[01:59:08] on the good work the royals do. That is
[01:59:10] not where the public are with this.
[01:59:12] where the public are with this is that
[01:59:13] we now have incontrovertible
[01:59:16] documentary written evidence that nobody
[01:59:19] can dispute or deny that Andrew was um
[01:59:23] quite happy to continue having
[01:59:25] conversations with Epstein when he knew
[01:59:27] he must have known that Epstein was a
[01:59:30] convicted pedophile. Um, and you know,
[01:59:33] even if you don't engage at all with
[01:59:35] Virginia's allegations, which obviously
[01:59:37] we have to, but even if you didn't, that
[01:59:39] is still morally wrong. And there has
[01:59:41] been no acknowledgement from Andrew or
[01:59:44] from the wide royal family that that is
[01:59:46] morally wrong.
[01:59:49] Good evening. If you're just joining us,
[01:59:51] let me remind you of the breaking news.
[01:59:53] Prince Andrew has announced that he's
[01:59:55] giving up his royal titles. He says
[01:59:58] accusations about him have become a
[02:00:00] distraction from the royal family. In a
[02:00:03] statement, Prince Andrew wrote, "In
[02:00:05] discussion with the king and my
[02:00:06] immediate and wider family, we have
[02:00:09] concluded the continued accusations
[02:00:11] about me distract from the work of his
[02:00:13] majesty and the royal family. I've
[02:00:16] decided, as I always have, to put my
[02:00:18] duty to my family and country first. I
[02:00:22] stand by my decision five years ago to
[02:00:24] stand back from public life. With His
[02:00:27] Majesty's agreement, we feel I must now
[02:00:29] go a step further. I will therefore no
[02:00:31] longer use my title or the honors which
[02:00:34] have been conferred upon me. As I have
[02:00:36] said previously, I vigorously deny the
[02:00:38] accusations against me.
[02:00:43] Let's bring in Sker Alice Porter who's
[02:00:45] with me now in the studio. um talking to
[02:00:48] the the very many commentators this
[02:00:51] evening, this hasn't really come as a
[02:00:53] surprise, but the moment is significant.
[02:00:56] It is significant. It's also
[02:00:58] historically significant. This is the
[02:01:00] first time a duke has relinquished his
[02:01:02] titles in more than a century. So, you
[02:01:05] really get a sense there of the gravity
[02:01:07] of the situation that we're seeing
[02:01:09] today. But certainly for people who are
[02:01:12] attuned to the the whispers and and the
[02:01:14] rumors that sort of circulate around the
[02:01:16] royal family a and the palace, this
[02:01:18] isn't a surprise really. But the timing
[02:01:21] of it is certainly significant because
[02:01:23] of course on Tuesday we've got Virginia
[02:01:26] Du Fray who took her own life who was a
[02:01:29] a victim of Jeffrey Epstein. Now she is
[02:01:33] uh publishing her memoirs are being
[02:01:35] published postumously on Tuesday in
[02:01:37] which there is going to be some graphic
[02:01:39] detail about her sexual relationship.
[02:01:43] She understood had sex several times
[02:01:44] supposedly allegedly with Prince Andrew
[02:01:48] and we understand from this memoir it's
[02:01:50] going to say uh we are um saying about
[02:01:53] that he believed it was having sex with
[02:01:56] me was his birthright. I mean to be in a
[02:01:58] a situation where you have a member of
[02:02:00] the royal family being caught up in
[02:02:03] something so sorted um and sad of course
[02:02:06] with Virginia Duprey having taken her
[02:02:08] own life uh and campaign very uh very
[02:02:11] much in the public about being
[02:02:14] trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein. So to
[02:02:16] have those details coming out on
[02:02:17] Tuesday, uh some of which we've a lot of
[02:02:20] which we've heard before, but it keeps
[02:02:22] it in the spotlight, keeps it very much
[02:02:25] on the front pages on the same week that
[02:02:28] the king is going to be going to the
[02:02:30] Vatican. And for the first time in more
[02:02:33] than 500 years, a British monarch is
[02:02:36] going to be praying with the pope. I
[02:02:38] mean, you couldn't have a greater
[02:02:40] contrast. Therefore, it's perhaps no
[02:02:43] surprise that we have this announcement
[02:02:46] from Prince Andrew today. Certainly
[02:02:49] suggesting from his language that it's a
[02:02:51] decision he's taken in conjunction with
[02:02:54] the king and we've also heard from the
[02:02:56] palace that Prince William was also kind
[02:02:58] of consulted within this decision and
[02:03:00] members of the royal family. But you can
[02:03:02] certainly imagine there have been
[02:03:04] numerous conversations at the palace
[02:03:06] where pressure has been put on Prince
[02:03:08] Andrew to relinquish his royal titles
[02:03:11] and this takes effect immediately. But
[02:03:13] what material difference will there be
[02:03:16] in the way he lives his life? Well, in
[02:03:19] some ways there won't be a huge
[02:03:21] difference because of course back in
[02:03:23] 2022 whilst he was engulfed in a v
[02:03:26] Virginia Grey uh civil case which he
[02:03:29] ended up settling for for for millions
[02:03:31] and millions of pounds. Uh he then rem
[02:03:34] stopped using his HR title and his
[02:03:37] military patron patronages were uh
[02:03:40] removed off him by uh the late Queen
[02:03:42] Elizabeth. He's not been using the HR uh
[02:03:46] for a number of years now. Uh and we've
[02:03:49] certainly not seen him out and about in
[02:03:51] the way that he he used to be. And it
[02:03:53] used to be, you know, somebody it's
[02:03:55] really shown a real sort of fall from
[02:03:57] grace when he was somebody who was
[02:03:59] almost the the poster boy of the royal
[02:04:01] family. But there's been this sort of
[02:04:02] drip drip removing him from public life.
[02:04:05] But that's very difficult when as an
[02:04:07] institution as as the royal family that
[02:04:10] you are so public, but you also have
[02:04:12] private events. I mean, we saw him at uh
[02:04:14] the Duchess of Kent's funeral just last
[02:04:17] month uh when he was there very visible
[02:04:20] in the public eye. Now, he's obviously
[02:04:23] there's been because there's been he's
[02:04:24] been beset by so many different
[02:04:25] scandals. I mean, we focus quite rightly
[02:04:27] on Epstein and Virginia Dupra, but of
[02:04:29] course, he's been embroiled in uh the
[02:04:32] Chinese spy scandal, and that's why he
[02:04:34] wasn't at Sanderingham last Christmas
[02:04:37] because of his involvement with uh the
[02:04:40] alleged Chinese spy, Yang Tangbo, who's
[02:04:42] at the center of the collapse spy trial
[02:04:45] that's happening right now. I mean, he
[02:04:47] was supposedly uh Yang Tang Bo was
[02:04:50] invited to the prince's birthday party
[02:04:52] in 2020. and this man is uh barred from
[02:04:55] entering the country. So it's not just
[02:04:58] the scandal involving Epstein and V
[02:05:01] Virginia Du Fray, although
[02:05:02] understandably that's the sort of focus
[02:05:04] of it. There's been other scandals as
[02:05:06] well that's meant it's been very
[02:05:08] difficult for the royal family to have
[02:05:09] him play an integral part of it. So
[02:05:12] that's why he wasn't Sandingham last
[02:05:14] year. Of course, that's always a huge
[02:05:16] moment for the royal family to show a
[02:05:18] supposedly united front on, of course,
[02:05:20] the most important uh sort of Christian
[02:05:23] calendar date really. But we do know
[02:05:25] from the palace, having heard from them
[02:05:27] this evening, that he will not be at
[02:05:29] Sandringham this year, which then gives
[02:05:32] a a sense that this is going to be a
[02:05:34] long road ahead of Prince Andrew being
[02:05:36] removed from those very important public
[02:05:39] engagements for the royal family. In his
[02:05:41] statement, he says he'll no longer use
[02:05:44] his title or the honors which have been
[02:05:46] conferred upon me. Um, but he remains a
[02:05:50] prince. Is that correct?
[02:05:52] That's right. He remains a prince
[02:05:53] because he is the son of the late Queen
[02:05:57] Elizabeth and of course his daughters
[02:06:01] still are princesses and continue to
[02:06:03] have their titles. And this of course
[02:06:06] puts them in a incredibly difficult
[02:06:07] situation where both their parents have
[02:06:10] had their titles. It's not just Prince
[02:06:12] Andrew who's had his title removed
[02:06:14] today. It's also his ex-wife who's also
[02:06:16] been embroiled within the scandal with
[02:06:18] Epstein. So both parents have had their
[02:06:21] titles removed. But their daughters
[02:06:23] continue to be working royals and for
[02:06:25] them it puts them in an incredibly
[02:06:27] embarrassing and difficult situation.
[02:06:29] Alice, thank you very much for the
[02:06:30] moment. Alice Porter.
[02:06:33] Well, a little earlier I spoke to Andrew
[02:06:35] Lani, author of The Rise and Fall of the
[02:06:38] House of York.
[02:06:40] There have been a lot of people saying
[02:06:41] that this wasn't a tenable position. I
[02:06:43] think particularly after the leaked
[02:06:45] email um uh at the weekend of his links
[02:06:48] with with Epstein going on longer than
[02:06:50] people thought. Uh and also the Chinese
[02:06:52] spy allegations. Uh and you know, people
[02:06:55] were beginning to say that the king is
[02:06:56] weak. Uh and this was uh undermining the
[02:06:59] reputation of the monarchy. So something
[02:07:00] had to be done. Uh, I mean, this is an
[02:07:03] easy solution. He's only just standing
[02:07:05] down from these titles. Uh, I I think
[02:07:07] that it's perfectly clear from my book
[02:07:09] and and and plenty of other research
[02:07:11] that the accusations against him are
[02:07:13] pretty valid. Uh, and this is about the
[02:07:16] first thing that he's done in terms of
[02:07:17] putting his family first. I mean, we
[02:07:19] think of the Royal Lodge fiasco where he
[02:07:21] had hung in there even though the optics
[02:07:23] look bad. So I think that the palace may
[02:07:26] be hoping that this will lay to rest
[02:07:28] some of the concerns, but I I suspect
[02:07:30] this is only the first of of many things
[02:07:32] that are going to happen. Now
[02:07:35] you suggested that that people were
[02:07:37] beginning to say that the king is is
[02:07:38] weak. Who who do you speak of?
[02:07:42] Well, I mean comments in in articles uh
[02:07:44] uh even the commentators were saying
[02:07:46] this. I mean Wilson uh writing about the
[02:07:48] biggest crisis since the abdication. So,
[02:07:51] I mean that there were plenty of people
[02:07:52] saying that this was just getting worse
[02:07:54] and worse. It was infecting the body
[02:07:55] politic and and that this limb needed to
[02:07:57] be cut off.
[02:07:59] Why do you think that the tipping point
[02:08:01] has come now? Because, as you say, this
[02:08:03] has been simmering for many years now.
[02:08:06] Well, I mean, though I wrote in my book
[02:08:08] about the the the lies being told about
[02:08:10] the links with Epstein, uh I think it
[02:08:13] was the the leaked emails in the mail on
[02:08:15] Sunday, both for Sarah Ferguson a month
[02:08:17] ago and for him uh this Sunday, which I
[02:08:20] think showed that he hadn't told the
[02:08:22] truth in that Newsight interview. It put
[02:08:24] into question everything he had said. I
[02:08:27] think the royal family realized that
[02:08:28] they'd perhaps been sold a pap. uh and
[02:08:32] um I think the commentary mixture of the
[02:08:34] commentary and the worry that there
[02:08:35] would be further disclosures to come uh
[02:08:38] made them realize that they had to do
[02:08:40] something decisive.
[02:08:42] And what about this book to be released
[02:08:45] uh by Virginia Duffrey who uh is no
[02:08:48] longer anymore took her her own life.
[02:08:52] Are there revelations in this book that
[02:08:54] that could be even more detrimental?
[02:08:58] Well, I mean we've seen some serialized
[02:08:59] we know what's in the book. It's been
[02:09:00] serialized. So, come Tuesday. It's
[02:09:03] actually a rewrite of a book that she
[02:09:04] wrote many years ago called The
[02:09:05] Billionaire's Playboy Club. So, there's
[02:09:07] nothing new there, but of course, it
[02:09:09] just brought everything back in detail.
[02:09:11] Uh the sleaziness of the whole thing. Uh
[02:09:14] there is a more damaging booking up next
[02:09:16] month called Blue Butterfly. Uh but we
[02:09:18] had also the the risk of more Epstein uh
[02:09:21] revelations, uh victims speaking out on
[02:09:24] Capitol Hill, uh depositions that were
[02:09:26] going to be unsealed. So uh I think the
[02:09:29] the feeling was that this could only get
[02:09:31] worse and best to address it now rather
[02:09:33] than this drip drip feed which was
[02:09:35] undermining everyone's uh everyone's uh
[02:09:37] role in the monarchy.
[02:09:39] But from what you've said before that
[02:09:41] this won't draw a line under it.
[02:09:45] No, I I I don't think it will. Uh I
[02:09:47] think we we may well see more pressure
[02:09:49] to get him out of Royal Lodge. The
[02:09:50] optics don't look very good for a
[02:09:52] non-working royal. He has a ironclad
[02:09:54] lease there and he's hanging in there as
[02:09:56] his last bit of royal status. But you
[02:09:58] know I suspect pressure will be put on
[02:09:59] him. The pressure comes uh on what will
[02:10:02] happen to his daughters and and and
[02:10:04] their future within the royal family. I
[02:10:06] think that's that's how it's happening.
[02:10:08] Uh I I don't share Jenny Bond's um
[02:10:11] worries about the the daughters. I mean
[02:10:13] the daughters have been involved in a
[02:10:14] lot of the money-making activities of
[02:10:15] the parents. Uh and I think there are a
[02:10:18] lot of skeletons there still to come
[02:10:19] out. So I don't see them taking a very
[02:10:22] active role in in the royal family in
[02:10:24] the near future.
[02:10:26] And earlier my colleague Barbara Sarah
[02:10:28] spoke to our royal correspondent Ranon
[02:10:30] Mills.
[02:10:31] This is quite an extraordinary move and
[02:10:33] I think it shows that actually things
[02:10:35] had gone too far. Prince Andrew and
[02:10:38] allegations about him and Virginia Frey
[02:10:41] were continuing to be too much of a
[02:10:44] distraction for the royal family. Um a
[02:10:46] few more details that I can tell you. Um
[02:10:49] this decision um basically was taken in
[02:10:53] conjunction with the king. Yes, it was
[02:10:55] the prince's decision but with very
[02:10:57] close consultation with the king
[02:10:59] involved. Um and we understand that the
[02:11:02] king is glad of this outcome. Um this
[02:11:05] change comes into effect immediately. So
[02:11:08] from this moment he no longer holds
[02:11:10] those titles. Um the decision was taken
[02:11:14] in recognition of the fact that the
[02:11:15] prince's personal issues have continued
[02:11:17] to be um what has been described as an
[02:11:20] unwelcome distraction from the wider
[02:11:22] work of the royal family and we've seen
[02:11:24] that consistently I think over well I
[02:11:27] first started reporting on this around
[02:11:29] 10 years ago and it really has kind of
[02:11:31] punctuated and been there in the
[02:11:33] background um ever since. Um, of course
[02:11:36] there there was continuing discussions
[02:11:38] about what could the king do in terms of
[02:11:40] of Prince Andrew and one thing that
[02:11:41] people have pointed to is the fact that
[02:11:42] he continues to live on the Windsor
[02:11:44] estate at Royal Lodge. We understand
[02:11:47] that he will continue to to live there.
[02:11:50] He has got a private teny agreement with
[02:11:52] the crown estate. So we don't believe
[02:11:54] that that will change. Um, is he still a
[02:11:57] duke? No. All his titles, including the
[02:12:00] Duke of York, will not be used anymore.
[02:12:02] However, he will still be known as
[02:12:04] Prince Andrew because he remains the son
[02:12:07] of Queen Elizabeth II. Um, so in
[02:12:10] accordance with the letters patents um
[02:12:13] that were updated by Queen Elizabeth the
[02:12:14] second in 2012, he will still stay as as
[02:12:17] prince. Um, the title of HR is already
[02:12:22] inactive. That was that was taken away
[02:12:24] some time ago. What does this mean for
[02:12:26] other members of his family? So, for
[02:12:28] example, the Duchess of York, Sarah
[02:12:30] Ferguson. Um for many years we're told
[02:12:33] that in a professional capacity she
[02:12:35] hasn't really used that that Duchess of
[02:12:36] York title. Um but she will no longer be
[02:12:39] known at all as the Duchess of York. Um
[02:12:42] Princess Beatatrice and Princess Eujenei
[02:12:46] um their position is as princesses is
[02:12:49] entirely unaffected by this in terms of
[02:12:52] Prince Andrew being a counselor of
[02:12:54] state. Now, a council of the state act
[02:12:56] on behalf of the king in um a limited
[02:13:00] defined capacity um if they have to step
[02:13:02] in on behalf of the king. It's already
[02:13:04] been made clear though in the past that
[02:13:06] non- workinging members of the royal
[02:13:07] family. So, for example, Prince Andrew,
[02:13:09] Prince Harry don't act as um counselors
[02:13:12] of state. Um in terms of of course we
[02:13:16] have increasingly seen Prince Andrew
[02:13:18] appear at some family occasions, most
[02:13:20] recently um the funeral for the Duchess
[02:13:23] of Kent. Um what will happen for other
[02:13:26] family occasions, we're not sure. Um but
[02:13:28] he isn't going to attend royal family
[02:13:30] Christmas celebrations. Um so yeah, just
[02:13:33] to confirm in Prince Andrew's own words,
[02:13:36] he says, "I stand by my decision five
[02:13:38] years ago to stand back from public life
[02:13:41] and with his majesty's agreement, we
[02:13:44] feel I must now go a step further. I'll
[02:13:46] therefore no longer use my title or the
[02:13:49] honors which been conferred upon me."
[02:13:51] But what he does very clearly say in
[02:13:53] that statement as we've continued to
[02:13:56] hear those allegations against him, he
[02:13:59] says, "I vigorously deny the accusations
[02:14:01] against me."
[02:14:05] Rian, you hinted at this at the
[02:14:06] beginning, but just remind us what the
[02:14:08] main issues are around Prince Andrew's
[02:14:11] personal life that may have led to this
[02:14:13] decision.
[02:14:15] So it was it was 10 years ago that we
[02:14:18] start first started reporting on the
[02:14:20] name of Virginia Dupra who made those
[02:14:24] allegations
[02:14:25] um sexual abuse allegations against uh
[02:14:28] Prince Andrew. Of course we then fast
[02:14:31] forward to 2019 when he gave that
[02:14:34] newsight interview when he
[02:14:37] vehemently denied those allegations
[02:14:39] against him. Of course, there has of
[02:14:42] course been the spectre of Jeffrey
[02:14:44] Epstein that's continued to to hang over
[02:14:46] him as well. Only in in the last week,
[02:14:50] uh, a newspaper reported on an email
[02:14:52] that was sent to Jeffrey Epstein from
[02:14:55] Prince Andrew. Um, despite it being a
[02:14:58] time in which Prince Andrew said that he
[02:15:00] had cut ties with the convicted
[02:15:03] pedophile. And also I think with that
[02:15:05] News Night interview, Prince Andrew
[02:15:07] always refused to apologize for being
[02:15:09] friends with Jeffrey Epstein and that
[02:15:11] continued to also hang over him um as
[02:15:14] well. Also this week on Tuesday, we're
[02:15:18] due to see published a book by Virginia
[02:15:21] Dupra. Um she took her own life uh in
[02:15:24] the last year and and yet her book is
[02:15:28] still going to be released and so we
[02:15:29] wait to see exactly what is likely to
[02:15:31] come out um of that book. So, it has
[02:15:34] been a very unwelcome distraction for
[02:15:37] the royal family that has continued to
[02:15:39] to hang over them. Of course, also in
[02:15:41] recent weeks, we've had Sarah Ferguson
[02:15:43] again also being being pulled into to
[02:15:46] the situation as well with an email that
[02:15:48] she sent to Jeffrey Epstein. It seemed
[02:15:50] apologizing to him. Although she at the
[02:15:52] time and her advisers said it was
[02:15:54] because she was being
[02:15:56] um blackmailed by him. Um but yeah, it
[02:15:58] is still extraordinary that it's come to
[02:16:00] a stage where actually Prince Andrew has
[02:16:03] has now in some ways fallen on his sword
[02:16:06] and I think probably heavily leaned on
[02:16:10] by the king has decided that he would
[02:16:13] give up those final vestigages if you
[02:16:15] like um of of those royal titles um
[02:16:18] which we've consistently seen being
[02:16:20] chipped away uh over over recent
[02:16:27] Ba Mills there, our royal uh
[02:16:29] correspondent. I'm joined now by
[02:16:30] broadcaster and royal expert Caroline
[02:16:32] Aston. Good evening to you. Uh did you
[02:16:35] see this as an inevitability that the
[02:16:38] prince would be made to give up his
[02:16:40] titles at some point?
[02:16:42] Absolutely. Because of course the job of
[02:16:45] the director of the firm, that's the
[02:16:47] royal family, is to keep the reputation
[02:16:50] of the firm, the monarchy, as clean and
[02:16:52] untarnished as possible. And far too
[02:16:55] much had been going on. And so the king
[02:16:57] was left really with only one option.
[02:17:00] But we notice here that it is the the
[02:17:02] Duke of York, Prince Andrew as he now
[02:17:04] is, who chose to fall on his sword
[02:17:08] himself, which must have been a great
[02:17:10] relief to his brother because of course
[02:17:12] it saved him from having to push him. He
[02:17:15] jumped himself and hopefully now will
[02:17:18] retreat into a degree of obscurity that
[02:17:21] he certainly needs because the news
[02:17:24] lately lies revealed emails that had
[02:17:28] been denied and certainly the denial of
[02:17:30] some of the things he said in that not
[02:17:32] so much grilling by Emily Mateless as
[02:17:35] barbecuing that took place. Well, all of
[02:17:38] this now hopefully can be allowed to die
[02:17:41] a natural death. But make no mistake,
[02:17:44] this man is going to be deeply hurt and
[02:17:47] humiliated by this, particularly at
[02:17:49] losing his knighthood of the garter.
[02:17:52] Knight of the garter that meant an awful
[02:17:54] lot to him and how much he enjoyed his
[02:17:56] public appearances. But he is totally
[02:17:59] cancelled now. But of course, as he was
[02:18:01] saying, retains his title of prince
[02:18:04] because that's what he is, the son of
[02:18:07] our late queen, the brother of the king.
[02:18:09] Who knows what else will come out of the
[02:18:11] royal woodwork, but what was an elephant
[02:18:14] in the room then became a mammoth and
[02:18:17] now thankfully hopefully the door of
[02:18:19] that room will be shut.
[02:18:22] You seem to be suggesting that you
[02:18:24] believe that he jumped rather than be
[02:18:27] pushed. But in his statement he does say
[02:18:30] with his majesty's agreement we feel I
[02:18:33] must now go a step further and I will
[02:18:35] therefore no longer use my title or the
[02:18:37] honors which have been conferred upon
[02:18:39] me. So it seems as if it it's a a joint
[02:18:43] decision.
[02:18:44] Well I would say what he's saying is he
[02:18:46] had had conversations with his brother
[02:18:49] and had decided to do this putting of
[02:18:52] course as he says his duty to family and
[02:18:54] country first. So in other words,
[02:18:56] obviously pressure was put upon him, but
[02:18:59] at the end of the day, it is him who has
[02:19:01] decided to step down rather than the
[02:19:03] king being seen to say, "That's it.
[02:19:06] You're gone." And I think the way it's
[02:19:08] phrased and the way it's presented will
[02:19:10] make a difference both to what people
[02:19:12] feel perhaps about the king and about
[02:19:15] Prince Andrew. A lot of people were
[02:19:17] being very critical of King Charles for
[02:19:20] not being stronger about this, for not
[02:19:22] doing something before. But of course,
[02:19:24] we've gone long, haven't we? Beyond the
[02:19:26] days when you could bury someone under
[02:19:28] the stairs of the Tower of London or
[02:19:31] send them into exile, some of the rather
[02:19:33] grizzly fates of naughty royals of the
[02:19:35] past. No, this, I think, is possibly the
[02:19:38] most diplomatic end to what has
[02:19:41] undoubtedly been a very, very difficult
[02:19:43] chapter in recent royal history.
[02:19:47] And do you believe that this is the end?
[02:19:49] Speaking to other commentators this
[02:19:50] evening, they've suggested that this
[02:19:52] doesn't draw a line under the the whole
[02:19:54] saga and there'll be further
[02:19:55] revelations. Um, and this is not the
[02:19:57] end.
[02:19:58] No, I'm sure there will be because of
[02:20:00] course emails, don't they, have a rather
[02:20:02] nasty habit of popping up and causing
[02:20:04] great embarrassment. But what else can
[02:20:07] be done to neutralize Prince Andrew?
[02:20:10] There's nothing else really left to take
[02:20:12] away from him. But the story, I totally
[02:20:14] agree with everybody else that will
[02:20:16] rumble on. But what can be done
[02:20:18] officially to demote him, to neutralize
[02:20:21] him in a royal sense has now been done.
[02:20:24] But quite right, the story will run and
[02:20:27] run. It really is one of those stories
[02:20:28] that just keeps on giving and the things
[02:20:31] it gives are not always very pleasant.
[02:20:34] How do you think it's affected the
[02:20:36] reputation of the the royal family as a
[02:20:38] whole?
[02:20:39] Difficult to say, isn't it? Because he
[02:20:41] has long been seen as an unpopular
[02:20:43] member of the royal family. He has quite
[02:20:45] a reputation for being somewhat
[02:20:47] bumptious and arrogant, frequently using
[02:20:50] the term the queen my mother, sometimes
[02:20:53] forgetting that he owed his title, his
[02:20:56] status, his privilege to an accident of
[02:20:59] birth. Well, that's all gone now. And
[02:21:03] really, he just needs to be quiet to
[02:21:06] walk away from all this while the world
[02:21:08] waits to see what else can be laid on
[02:21:11] his doorstep. Difficult times for him.
[02:21:13] And you know, if he's inherited the
[02:21:15] genes of his parents fully, he could
[02:21:18] live a long, long time. And one wonders
[02:21:21] what these future years will hold for
[02:21:24] him now he's been so very firmly pushed
[02:21:27] to one side.
[02:21:28] That was exactly going to be my next
[02:21:30] question. What What does the future hold
[02:21:32] for Prince Andrew? What what will he do?
[02:21:35] How will his life be materially affected
[02:21:37] by the loss of his his titles? Well, I'm
[02:21:40] sure his feelings about himself have
[02:21:43] been incredibly bruised and deflated.
[02:21:46] What do you do? How do you feel the
[02:21:49] years? I'm minded thinking about John
[02:21:51] Profumo at the time of the Christine
[02:21:53] Keeler crisis in the 60s who just
[02:21:56] disappears from the public gaze and
[02:21:58] rebuilt a very quiet life of charitable
[02:22:02] work away from the cameras. But of
[02:22:04] course, that was a rather different kind
[02:22:06] of scandal, wasn't it? I think the taint
[02:22:09] of Jeffrey Epstein casts a very long
[02:22:12] shadow over the reputation of Prince
[02:22:14] Andrew and the public have a very long
[02:22:17] memory and particularly as Virginia
[02:22:20] Roberts Joffrey committed suicide in
[02:22:23] April this year, seemingly unable to
[02:22:25] carry the burden anymore of what had
[02:22:28] gone on. All of this mitigates against
[02:22:31] him really for the time being and
[02:22:33] certainly for a long time doing anything
[02:22:36] really much with his life apart from
[02:22:38] what he's already been doing. The
[02:22:40] pictures of him riding a lonely figure
[02:22:42] looking angry driving one of his many
[02:22:45] cars and playing golf. That's an awful
[02:22:48] lot of years, isn't it, ahead to fill
[02:22:50] with occupations like that, particularly
[02:22:52] as we have no idea what the next set of
[02:22:55] revelations will show. We've spoken
[02:22:58] about the the effects on the wider royal
[02:23:00] family, but in particular his um his
[02:23:02] daughters, princesses, Beatric and
[02:23:04] Euenei. Will they be affected in any
[02:23:07] way?
[02:23:08] Well, not in an official sense, no. But
[02:23:11] one can't help but feel sorry for these
[02:23:14] two girls. Um, Virginia Roberts Joffrey
[02:23:18] says in her recently published
[02:23:19] autobiography that at their meeting,
[02:23:22] which she maintains took place, he
[02:23:24] continues to deny everything, but she
[02:23:26] says no. He remarked to her. He he
[02:23:30] guessed how old she was and then said
[02:23:32] that she was round about the same age as
[02:23:34] his own daughters. And that's one of the
[02:23:37] most distasteful parts of this really,
[02:23:39] isn't it? how those two daughters of his
[02:23:41] must be feeling it as they watch well
[02:23:44] their father crumble into dust and ashes
[02:23:47] in public opinion. They have done their
[02:23:50] bit. They've done light royal duties,
[02:23:52] but their future too. What connection
[02:23:55] will they have? What will they be called
[02:23:57] upon to do? Because of course, what's
[02:23:59] the old saying? Lie down with a dog and
[02:24:01] you can get fleas. And maybe if your
[02:24:03] father is so humiliated and diminished,
[02:24:06] it can have very bad effects on you and
[02:24:08] the way that you two are viewed.
[02:24:10] Although they they've done nothing
[02:24:12] wrong, I feel great sorrow for them. It
[02:24:14] must be a hard hard piece of news for
[02:24:16] them to hear.
[02:24:18] Indeed. Caroline Aston, thank you very
[02:24:20] much for speaking to us, broadcaster and
[02:24:22] royal expert.
[02:24:25] Well, earlier my colleague Barbara Sarah
[02:24:27] spoke to Jack Royston, chief royal
[02:24:29] correspondent at Newsweek.
[02:24:33] Well, I think actually this does not go
[02:24:35] far enough because what the British
[02:24:37] public actually really need here is an
[02:24:39] acknowledgement from the royal family
[02:24:41] that irrespective of whether Prince
[02:24:44] Andrew denies the substantive
[02:24:45] allegations against him, it was morally
[02:24:48] wrong for him to gravel to Jeffrey
[02:24:51] Epstein and thorn over Jeffrey Epstein
[02:24:53] and also Sarah Ferguson too, saying
[02:24:55] that, you know, she thanked him from her
[02:24:57] heart and that he was a supreme friend
[02:24:59] to them. Um, I think there needs to be
[02:25:01] some kind of an acknowledgement, ideally
[02:25:03] that Andrew misled the public. They
[02:25:05] would not want to go so far as to say
[02:25:07] that he lied, but it he misled Emily
[02:25:09] Maitlets when he said to her in that
[02:25:11] interview in 2019 and that he had no
[02:25:14] further contact with Epstein after
[02:25:16] December 2010 when we now know from the
[02:25:19] emails that have been um published that
[02:25:21] he did. Um, and so the the wording of
[02:25:24] this statement is still very much
[02:25:26] couched in terms that Andrew is doing
[02:25:28] this because otherwise it distracts from
[02:25:31] the good work that the monarchy does.
[02:25:33] And the problem is that that's not how
[02:25:35] the public see it. What the public see
[02:25:37] here is a a figure in public life who
[02:25:41] has acted in a way that is morally
[02:25:43] unforgivable. That go that is beyond the
[02:25:45] pale. And the problem here for the
[02:25:47] monarchy that is causing huge
[02:25:49] reputational damage, particularly among
[02:25:51] young people, um is that there's never
[02:25:54] been an acknowledgement from the royal
[02:25:56] family that Andrew has actually done
[02:25:58] something morally wrong. And we're at a
[02:26:00] point now where you can unequivocally
[02:26:03] draw that conclusion without having to
[02:26:06] rule in any way on whether Virginia
[02:26:08] Jeffy's allegations are true or not
[02:26:10] because it is uh very straightforwardly
[02:26:13] morally objectionable to um you know
[02:26:16] everyone in Britain effectively that you
[02:26:19] don't go and for to people who are
[02:26:20] convicted pedophiles. And Andrew knew
[02:26:22] that Epstein was a convicted pedophile
[02:26:24] when he sent the email in February 2011.
[02:26:29] that was um recently published in which
[02:26:30] he said, you know, we're in this
[02:26:32] together and we'll just have to rise
[02:26:33] above it.
[02:26:35] Um you've just said that you don't think
[02:26:37] this goes far enough. If we look at the
[02:26:40] statement from Prince Andrew, he says
[02:26:41] specifically that he wants this to to
[02:26:44] stop uh for him to stop being a
[02:26:46] distraction from the work uh of the
[02:26:48] royal family and and the king. Do you
[02:26:51] think that this action will fail to
[02:26:53] achieve that?
[02:26:55] I think it's it has a benefit which is
[02:26:59] it shows that the king wants to go
[02:27:00] further than he's gone before. So that's
[02:27:02] a positive thing and it sounds like
[02:27:05] we're not going to see Andrew at
[02:27:06] Christmas. Hopefully that means ever
[02:27:08] again. I mean, you know, I think I think
[02:27:11] you know the understanding is that he
[02:27:12] certainly won't be there at Christmas
[02:27:14] this year. There's still Easter to think
[02:27:16] about. Um we don't know for sure whether
[02:27:18] he's going to appear then. But if this
[02:27:20] does uh mean effectively that we will
[02:27:23] never see Andrew photographed with
[02:27:25] Charles and William and senior royals
[02:27:27] ever again, then that will certainly
[02:27:28] help. But I do think that there is a
[02:27:30] major missing piece of the puzzle here
[02:27:32] for the royal family, which is that um
[02:27:34] you know they are they have been
[02:27:36] photographed and filmed on camera very
[02:27:38] recently um being you know standing with
[02:27:41] Andrew at the Duchess of Ken's funeral.
[02:27:44] Charles was, you know, William blanked
[02:27:46] Andrew, but Charles seemed to be
[02:27:47] chatting with him and they seem to be
[02:27:49] laughing together. Um, now from the
[02:27:51] public's point of view, Andrew is
[02:27:53] completely radioactive. He has uh his
[02:27:56] reputation is is down there in the pit
[02:27:59] of where Vladimir Putin is in terms of
[02:28:01] the polling. Um but the you know the
[02:28:03] other bit of this um is that the
[02:28:06] documentary evidence that has come out
[02:28:08] recently does get us to a point where
[02:28:12] even if you can't say for sure that
[02:28:15] Virginia Jeffrey's allegations are true,
[02:28:17] it is still objectively to you the
[02:28:21] overwhelming majority of British people
[02:28:23] morally reprehensible
[02:28:25] um to speak to Jeffrey Epstein in the
[02:28:28] way that Andrew did in an email. Um and
[02:28:32] uh there's been no acknowledgment that
[02:28:34] he has definitively done something
[02:28:37] wrong. I mean I think that is the big
[02:28:39] mismatch between how the public sees
[02:28:41] this now and how it's still being
[02:28:43] discussed in this statement. The
[02:28:45] statement is very much this is all a
[02:28:47] great big distraction. I still think I'm
[02:28:49] innocent but it's you know let's focus
[02:28:51] on the good work the royals do. That is
[02:28:53] not where the public are with this.
[02:28:54] where the public are with this is that
[02:28:56] we now have incontrovertible
[02:28:59] documentary written evidence that nobody
[02:29:02] can dispute or deny that Andrew was um
[02:29:06] quite happy to continue having
[02:29:08] conversations with Epstein when he knew
[02:29:10] he must have known that Epstein was a
[02:29:13] convicted pedophile. Um, and you know,
[02:29:16] even if you don't engage at all with
[02:29:18] Virginia's allegations, which obviously
[02:29:20] we have to, but even if you didn't, that
[02:29:22] is still morally wrong. And there has
[02:29:23] been no acknowledgement from Andrew or
[02:29:26] from the wide royal family that that is
[02:29:28] morally wrong.
[02:29:32] Let's speak now to Sarah Griswood, royal
[02:29:34] author and historian. Good evening to
[02:29:36] you. Um, how do you think first of all
[02:29:39] this has all been handled?
[02:29:41] I think
[02:29:44] we just heard that it may have been too
[02:29:46] little. I'm not so sure about that. It
[02:29:49] is perhaps rather late, but nonetheless,
[02:29:53] I think it is good and important that
[02:29:57] the royal family and there isn't much
[02:29:59] doubt that this is coming from the king
[02:30:02] and from Prince William rather than from
[02:30:04] Prince Andrew. Uh it's it's good that
[02:30:08] they have at last acted fairly
[02:30:11] decisively.
[02:30:13] Can I just remind you of the statement
[02:30:14] from Prince Andrew? Um and we we'll
[02:30:17] dissect it afterwards. He says, "In
[02:30:19] discussion with the king and my
[02:30:21] immediate and wider family, we have
[02:30:23] concluded the continued accusations
[02:30:24] about me distract from the work of his
[02:30:27] majesty and the royal family.
[02:30:29] I have decided, as I always have, to put
[02:30:32] my duty to my family and country first.
[02:30:34] I stand by my decision. 5 years ago to
[02:30:36] stand back from public life. With his
[02:30:38] majesty's agreement, we feel I must now
[02:30:41] go a step further. I will therefore no
[02:30:44] longer use my title or the honors which
[02:30:46] have been conferred upon me. As I've
[02:30:48] said previously, I vigorously deny the
[02:30:50] accusations against me.
[02:30:53] Is that the best statement that that he
[02:30:55] could have put out there?
[02:30:56] Well, it's rather a self aggrandizing
[02:30:59] statement. I feel I think the the theory
[02:31:02] that it was coming from him was
[02:31:04] inevitable. That's how they do things. I
[02:31:08] mean, almost a century ago, the then
[02:31:11] King Edward VII, uh the future Duke of
[02:31:15] Windsor went on the radio saying, you
[02:31:18] know, I could no longer do my duties as
[02:31:21] I would wish to do without Wallace
[02:31:23] Simpson's support. It was always going
[02:31:26] to be presented that way. After all, to
[02:31:28] have forcibly removed the title Duke of
[02:31:31] York would have required an act of
[02:31:34] parliament, and I can't imagine that the
[02:31:37] palace, there's nothing they'd want less
[02:31:39] than that kind of publicity.
[02:31:42] So, has the has the title or the titles
[02:31:45] have they been um technically removed?
[02:31:48] Because in the statement, he says he
[02:31:50] will therefore no longer use That's
[02:31:52] right.
[02:31:52] the title or the honors. So does he
[02:31:54] still maintain them?
[02:31:56] I think yes. That particular one, Duke
[02:31:59] of York, it would require an act of
[02:32:01] parliament to remove. And of course, he
[02:32:04] will remain prince for the rest of his
[02:32:07] life as Elizabeth II's son, but
[02:32:13] this this is still pretty momentous. Um,
[02:32:16] and I I think we're all very glad it's
[02:32:19] happened.
[02:32:23] What do you see in his future? I mean,
[02:32:26] we were talking to to other commentators
[02:32:28] previously and they were saying that,
[02:32:30] you know, nowadays he he can't well, I
[02:32:32] don't believe that he can be exiled, so
[02:32:34] he'll continue to reside in this
[02:32:37] country. But but what does his life look
[02:32:39] like now?
[02:32:40] Well, presumably the life of a retired
[02:32:43] man in which he will find what
[02:32:46] satisfactions he can, whether sport,
[02:32:49] whatever. But there there can be
[02:32:52] absolutely no question of him playing
[02:32:55] any kind of public role I think ever
[02:32:58] again. I mean the evidence now is
[02:33:01] overwhelming against him. And although
[02:33:05] he is saying that you know he's he's
[02:33:07] still saying in that statement isn't he
[02:33:10] that he has decided to put his duty
[02:33:13] first as he's always done. That is very
[02:33:16] far from being the public perception of
[02:33:19] Prince Andrew.
[02:33:21] Are there any further sanctions that
[02:33:23] could be taken against Prince Andrew?
[02:33:25] Because there's there's much speculation
[02:33:27] that there further revelations to to
[02:33:30] come.
[02:33:30] Yes. I'm not really sure in royal terms
[02:33:34] how many more there are. He can't be
[02:33:38] stripped of the fact that he is was born
[02:33:42] the son of Elizabeth II. So therefore
[02:33:46] prince he's lost all his military
[02:33:49] titles. You know the knight the knight
[02:33:52] of the garter that which is a very
[02:33:54] important one. Now the Duke of York
[02:33:57] the royal lodge. I believe the royal
[02:34:00] family have been trying to get him out
[02:34:03] of there for some time, but he has a
[02:34:06] lease that runs, I think, until 2078.
[02:34:10] So, that's not easy to do. Unless it
[02:34:14] would come to actual criminal
[02:34:16] prosecution, it's hard to see what else
[02:34:19] could be done.
[02:34:21] There had been some criticism of the the
[02:34:23] the king for not being uh stern enough
[02:34:27] and being, you know, quite soft in his
[02:34:29] handling of his his younger brother.
[02:34:33] Would you agree with that criticism? Do
[02:34:35] you think it it hasn't been handled
[02:34:36] firmly by the king? Not entirely. I
[02:34:41] think it's been a little unclear quite
[02:34:44] what they could do. I think they've been
[02:34:46] working towards this behind the scenes
[02:34:49] for some time. Of course, new evidence
[02:34:52] is coming out now even this week with
[02:34:55] the memoir of Virginia Ju being
[02:34:58] serialized in newspapers and so on and
[02:35:01] of course the Chinese uh allegations
[02:35:04] that connection. But I think the royal
[02:35:08] family had a bit of a juggling act to
[02:35:10] do. On the one hand, they had to be seen
[02:35:14] to preserve their own moral high ground
[02:35:17] in so far as is possible. On the other,
[02:35:22] blatant public divisions in the royal
[02:35:25] family. Well, they had that back in the
[02:35:28] 1990s between Prince Charles, as he was,
[02:35:32] and Princess Diana. They don't want to
[02:35:35] wash more of their dirty linen in public
[02:35:38] than they have to.
[02:35:40] Sarah Chriswood, royal author and
[02:35:42] historian. Thank you very much for uh
[02:35:43] sharing your expertise with us. Thank
[02:35:45] you.
[02:35:49] Now, if you're just joining us, let me
[02:35:51] remind you of the breaking news, and
[02:35:52] that is that Prince Andrew has announced
[02:35:54] that he's giving up his royal titles. He
[02:35:56] says, "Accusations about him have become
[02:35:59] a distraction from the royal family." In
[02:36:02] a statement, he wrote, "In discussion
[02:36:04] with the king and my immediate and wider
[02:36:06] family, we have concluded the continued
[02:36:08] accusations about me distract from the
[02:36:10] work of his majesty and the royal
[02:36:12] family. I have decided, as I always
[02:36:15] have, to put my duty to my family and
[02:36:18] country first. I stand by my decision
[02:36:21] five years ago, to stand back from
[02:36:23] public life. With His Majesty's
[02:36:25] agreement, we feel I must now go a step
[02:36:28] further. I will therefore no longer use
[02:36:30] my title or the honors which have been
[02:36:32] conferred upon me. As I have said
[02:36:34] previously, I vigorously deny the
[02:36:37] accusations against me. Let's bring in
[02:36:40] Sky Alice Porter who's with me now in
[02:36:43] the studio. And Alice, we've had that
[02:36:46] statement to pour over for some hours
[02:36:48] now. One of um the commentators that I
[02:36:50] spoke to previously was saying there's
[02:36:52] not a word of an apology, which is
[02:36:55] something that the statement might have
[02:36:57] benefited from. Yes. And that's
[02:36:59] something that I think that's haunted
[02:37:00] Prince Andrew for quite some time.
[02:37:02] Certainly since that interview that he
[02:37:05] did on News Night back in 2019. That was
[02:37:08] one of the the many remarkable parts of
[02:37:11] that interview was that he never said
[02:37:14] never regretted his friendship with
[02:37:16] Jeffrey Epstein. Never apologized for it
[02:37:18] for it. And there's been such a lot of
[02:37:21] legal pressure I suppose on him. He's
[02:37:23] been obviously there was the with
[02:37:25] Virginia Gup Fray there was the uh
[02:37:28] settlement that was eventually reached
[02:37:31] um which of course meant that he's
[02:37:33] always denied the allegations that he
[02:37:35] ever had sex with her or was that she
[02:37:38] was forced to have sex with him. So
[02:37:40] legally he's been in a position as has
[02:37:42] the palace to an extent that they've
[02:37:44] always had to hold the line that he's
[02:37:46] always denied any wrongdoing. He's
[02:37:48] denied ever sleeping with her. So to an
[02:37:50] extent he's he's had that narrative and
[02:37:52] he's got to kind of keep that going. But
[02:37:55] of course that's becomes harder and
[02:37:58] harder to sustain really when you have
[02:38:02] Virginia Duprey particularly the
[02:38:03] difficulty surrounding you know she took
[02:38:05] her own life very sadly and then of
[02:38:07] course we have have her memoirs coming
[02:38:09] out postumously on Tuesday where she
[02:38:13] talks about having sex with Prince
[02:38:15] Andrew where she says she believed he
[02:38:18] believed having sex with me was his
[02:38:20] birthright. I mean, this is horrendous
[02:38:23] sort of detail really for uh someone to
[02:38:25] be making about the royal family. And
[02:38:28] whilst he's always denied uh any
[02:38:31] wrongdoing in in regard to Virginia
[02:38:32] Dupra, he did settle the civil sexual uh
[02:38:36] assault case uh for millions, we
[02:38:38] understand, for millions of pounds. So,
[02:38:40] of course, it does put him and indeed
[02:38:43] the royal family, many would argue, in a
[02:38:45] situation where people have been calling
[02:38:47] for stronger language from the royal
[02:38:49] family and indeed Prince Andrew and
[02:38:51] doing more to not only distance himself
[02:38:54] more from uh Jeffrey Epstein, but to be
[02:38:58] uh uh more critical of his friendship
[02:39:01] with him.
[02:39:02] Will his day-to-day life change? Now,
[02:39:05] that's the question really, isn't it?
[02:39:07] because on the one hand it may not do
[02:39:10] because he gave up his HR title back in
[02:39:14] 2022 when he was embroiled in the in the
[02:39:16] scandal involving the uh settlement with
[02:39:19] Virginia Grey. So, and he's been uh he's
[02:39:22] had to give up his royal patronages and
[02:39:24] and and returned those to uh when it was
[02:39:27] Queen Elizabeth at the time. So, he's
[02:39:29] not been a working royal for some time.
[02:39:32] So, in that regard,
[02:39:34] his day-to-day life won't change. And
[02:39:36] he's still ultimately a member of a
[02:39:38] family. I mean, we saw him last month at
[02:39:41] the Duchess of Kent's funeral. He's
[02:39:44] still got two daughters who are uh
[02:39:47] princesses who are cousins to Prince
[02:39:51] William and Prince Andrew. And so whilst
[02:39:53] he may be effectively persona non grata
[02:39:56] from the institution of the royal
[02:39:58] family, he still continues to be related
[02:40:01] to he's still the brother of the king
[02:40:04] and so therefore it makes family
[02:40:05] engagements very very difficult. I mean
[02:40:08] we didn't see him at Sandringham last
[02:40:10] year because of his uh the way in which
[02:40:14] he was tied up to uh an alleged Chinese
[02:40:17] spy. We understand from the palace this
[02:40:19] evening that he will not be at
[02:40:21] Sandringham this year. The question is,
[02:40:23] is he going to be at other slightly less
[02:40:26] high-profile family events? We just
[02:40:29] don't know. But whether his dayto-day
[02:40:31] life will change that drastically from
[02:40:33] where it was a couple of weeks ago, it's
[02:40:35] hard to say. Uh he's clearly a man who
[02:40:38] still has is able to command a
[02:40:40] significant amount of money. I mean
[02:40:42] there'll be of course many people
[02:40:43] calling for him to be removed from the
[02:40:47] royal lodge his 30 room mansion in
[02:40:49] Windsor but he has his own independent
[02:40:52] lease with the crown estate on that
[02:40:54] property. So I think it's going to be
[02:40:55] very difficult for the royal family to
[02:40:57] get him to to budge from that property.
[02:40:59] So in some ways he will continue to lead
[02:41:01] the life that he's been living for for
[02:41:03] some time now. But there's no doubt that
[02:41:05] this is an embarrassing fall from grace
[02:41:08] for somebody who at one point was very
[02:41:09] much almost a poster child for the royal
[02:41:11] family.