# Paul Singer | Podcast | In Good Company | Norges Bank Investment Management

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKRNT_h9n5E

[00:01] Hi everybody, I'm Nicola Tangan of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund and today we are hosting an investor legend, Paul Singer, who founded Elliot Asset Management and probably the most important activist investor in the world.
[00:16] A warm welcome, thank you.
[00:19] What is activist investing?
[00:22] Activist investing is taking a position largely in an equity security of a company and trying to engage with the company to improve outcomes, control or influence outcomes, better outcomes to unlock value.
[00:40] It could be management changes that are requested, it could be capital structure changes, finance strategies and tactics, anything that will make the company earn more money, be better, better positioned.
[01:01] more rationally deploy assets.
[01:05] Why do you have to do this?
[01:06] Don't companies do this themselves?
[01:08] Well, as you know, the U.S. trend away from active investing.
[01:13] And by active investing, I don't necessarily mean activist active investing, just means, um, you open the mail from the company that you invest in.
[01:24] You try to figure it out.
[01:26] You try to understand the company strategy and maybe you'll call the company up and lend in some suggestions.
[01:34] But U.S. active investing is next to passive investing or index investing.
[01:40] Index investing now accounts for a plurality of money, uh, money that's managed, particularly equity money, uh, around the world.
[01:49] What kind of steps do you take?
[01:51] Some of the steps are very, um, um, praiseworthy.
[01:58] We develop ideas from a variety of sources given our position in the marketplace.
[02:00] Um, sometimes, uh, people
[02:03] Bring us ideas.
[02:06] Sometimes the street brings us ideas.
[02:10] Um, uh, sometimes we ferret out ideas ourselves.
[02:13] The first thing we do is in an iterative process.
[02:18] Um, we develop a set of questions different from every, uh, in every industry and run down the questions.
[02:25] Uh, we talk to a lot of people, former employees, uh, uh, customers, uh, Wall Street analysts.
[02:34] Um, uh, a consequence, parenthetically, of, uh, the trend towards index investing is that there's less coverage, research coverage from Wall Street.
[02:43] And when I say Wall Street, I mean the global, uh, uh, investment banking firms, uh, in firms that supply research.
[02:52] But we try to become as informed as possible.
[02:54] We try to ascertain the, uh, local, um, uh, landscape in terms of culture, in terms of, uh, the
[03:03] culture of capitalism uh and U the culture of corporate uh control.
[03:10] corporate change um we try to understand the board of directors and the management.
[03:16] how do how how they got there um um what their strategies are what why they're failing.
[03:24] um I mean we don't get involved with highly successful companies that can't be improved really.
[03:30] so what is your perfect what's your perfect situation.
[03:34] the perfect situation is a u company and this exists um you may be surprised to hear it but uh it exists a company which has an open door and by Open Door what I mean is something's been going on for a long time.
[03:52] um uh the founder or one generation from the founder um feels a u a moral obligation to um the local shareholders.
[04:05] or the uh the original shareholders or the family doesn't want to give up.
[04:10] doesn't want to give up the longstanding strategy or Corp uh capital structure or alignment or location of headquarters um.
[04:20] uh any one of a number of uh reasons why when we come knocking um we not infrequently find a what we what I am accurately calling a an open door and in an open door it's a different discussion but if we're right.
[04:39] I mean we're we're not always right of course on on the details of our strategies and sometimes we're just plain wrong um.
[04:45] but um if we're right and there's um a segment an important segment of the uh the um leadership the board of directors the management um who actually agree with that then it's a then it's a u fairly smooth path to um getting things done how many smooth ones.
[05:07] do you have for for the ones who are not so smooth?
[05:10] I mean generally speaking how do companies react when pulsing or knocks on the door?
[05:14] Yeah yeah it's a very interesting question because um one thing that is um that is just crystal clear and um and endemic hardly anyone tries to stiff arm us hardly anyone.
[05:28] There's the occasional and there's a playbook for that you know we have one firm One Fund and it's large yeah uh and we obvious like $70 billion like 72 right now 72 billion um and we have the wherewithal to to back our uh thesis and pursue our approach um so everyone almost everyone sorry picks up the phone.
[05:53] The advisers all tell them Elliot you should pick up the phone you should engage with these people um they're deal makers we're dealmakers um uh uh and you will hear them out um and they do and so
[06:09] some of the approaches are under the radar screen.
[06:12] some of the approaches um we will file a disclose a position uh.
[06:21] others we don't disclose to the public.
[06:24] um we disclose to the to the company that we have a position um it depends on the rules.
[06:29] it depends on what what our strategy might be but um a a discussion a detailed discussion of and and a deck.
[06:36] um my guys like writing decks like piles of paper large piles of paper yeah with graphs and terrible.
[06:47] what does it mean to be a dealmaker.
[06:49] well in other words we're not we're not Crusaders we're not we're not just speaking to hear ourselves speak.
[06:56] we're not um engaged to read about ourselves in the Ft tomorrow morning.
[07:02] um we have a we have a goal we have a thesis.
[07:06] if our thesis is right and the company takes steps which is not
[07:11] always um I would say getting all of our requests is not rare but it's not dominant as the dominant outcome but um we're generally pretty right and uh uh and um the things we suggest generally are creative to u to value and so the company that engages with us it's a minority of those companies um which stiff arm us and knock down drag out proxy fights or lengthy litigations doesn't really help anybody but sometimes it happens.
[07:53] what's the ratio of of success successful outcomes versus not so successful outcomes well since I'm going to Define successful as um we get a meaningful percentage of what we asked for and the stock reflects it not just in 20 minutes but I mean you know over a
[08:13] period of time that we actually our ideas actually add value.
[08:16] Yeah, it's the only way we can maintain our reputation.
[08:18] That gets the stock to to say, 'Oh, Elliot's in this, here's their the is nobody else has been able to unlock that key.'
[08:27] The stock is worth more.
[08:30] And of course, um, it's it's not a question of short-termism because, um, actual short-termism doesn't add value to anyone really.
[08:35] Um, but, um, it's it's not short-termism when the market instantly overnight or in a couple of days or a few days understands that you are adding long-term value.
[08:57] Yeah, you're you're adding Enterprise Value.
[09:00] The strategy is better, your ability to compete is better.
[09:02] And in in what proportion of the cases do you think you are adding value if you measure it in that way?
[09:06] Well, the proportion of cases in which we're adding value is, I believe.
[09:15] close to 100 the proportion of cases in which it's reflected in uh action movement of structure capital structure uh Etc uh me directors um is probably this is just a guess but it's a majority it's like 70% right something something like that it's not 90 it's not 80 I think so for instance last year you uh took action against Starbucks I don't want to be a word Smith here okay let's let's phrase it differently you didn't take but it's important because you made an investment in Starbucks it's important to to to at least get this right in our minds uh because um the street sorry the media loves battle and they love to take down successful uh investors rich people whatever um so the colorful way that it's generally um um
[10:16] Framed is attack okay but let's cycle back to near the beginning of our conversation this morning.
[10:25] Fewer and fewer, literally fewer and fewer people are um acting like owners.
[10:32] Yeah, and fewer and fewer companies are accepting the notion that the owners have anything to say um to to the management and the board.
[10:43] It's it's kind of shocking and therefore we are among with with certainly in terms of numbers among the very a short list of people who do call uh for accountability.
[10:57] So we and when we win um the shareholders win.
[11:05] The the days of green mail are uh longer.
[11:10] So you so you make an investment in Starbucks and you initiated an um a change in strategy right.
[11:15] So they changed.
[11:17] the CEO uh change strategy and you made uh you made money do you think you're doing do you think you're making Society a better place it's not the um um I mean I have a variety of political and philosophical and philanthropic uh outlets for my um uh compensation um but um and I do think we do make the world a better place not in every single situation but um um this style of investing um is uh it enhances the possibility and the probability that enterprises can Service uh their their customers competition is good having multiple Outlets is uh uh is um useful we happen to I mean I'll tell you the most basic answer to your question there are layers of answer um uh to your question but at
[12:19] the most basic level we have like a hundred universities.
[12:21] we have hospitals.
[12:23] we have um U charity charitable trusts.
[12:27] and among the um uh among the elements of what I just uh told you is um because of our we we're not a an activist fund and everything else is uh is window dressing.
[12:45] we are an absolute return fund which means that you want to make money whatever the market does right.
[12:49] and so what the meaning of that to your La latest question is um uh in the infrequent and now a distant memory um uh in the infrequent so seriously adverse uh uh Financial Market environments these people have very few investment Outlets that actually perform on that.
[13:17] sometimes things don't go your
[13:19] Way right what are the characteristics of the investments which don't go the way you want?
[13:24] Do they have something in common?
[13:27] Sometimes it's bad luck uh but um um more frequently it's we missed something.
[13:34] We missed uh or or the hedges weren't um they weren't the right hedges.
[13:40] They the tracking error was much more than we uhu uh than we uh expected at the beginning of my career.
[13:48] 77 1977 to like 1987 um uh hedging was much more simple.
[13:53] Because we were long a convertible bond and short the stock into which the convertible was convertible.
[14:02] So that's that's very straightforward um um and um tracking error wasn't really a u a factor.
[14:12] We've become um much more sophisticated in uh hedging in creating.
[14:21] Bespoke hedges for different kinds of trades.
[14:28] And but even those don't you don't work out exactly you know all the time.
[14:36] Um but sometimes you know the the worst trades and I don't mind um mentioning them it's a kind of a form of therapy and pedagogical exercise.
[14:46] The worst trades are the trades that you you misunderstand the risk you you put it into the wrong category.
[14:54] I'll give you two brief examples um one moderately horrifying and the other done really really bad.
[15:07] Um a uh a peer who will remain nameless um sold us a late stage bankruptcy in a deinking.
[15:23] plant somewhere in the northern United States.
[15:26] late stage denotes the ri discs are Mo mostly gone in a complicated workout bankruptcy process.
[15:32] um uh and the deinking was their business you know waste paper and you're going to deink it and use it again and that's good for the environment it's good for the human race it's good for the Galaxy suffices to say that it wasn't late stage.
[15:49] there were important bankruptcy elements that hadn't been settled and the deinking plant didn't really work.
[15:59] so aside from hating the person that sold it to me um um that's just it's just a just a mistake um and we lost it.
[16:05] wasn't that big a position but we were much smaller um and the really bad one which was that that was an Arbitrage position in Japanese index link bonds inflation link.
[16:24] bonds now this Arbitrage was perfect.
[16:29] um jgbs Japanese government bonds full.
[16:33] faith in credit um uh.
[16:36] against jgbs that had the as I recall.
[16:41] the um the principal amount adjusted for.
[16:44] actual CPI uh uh.
[16:48] movements the Japanese CPI Consumer.
[16:51] Price Index um never moved much it it.
[16:55] was bouncing around zero for decades U.
[17:01] Back Then we're talking about.
[17:03] 20078 2006 78 um be hardly ever dipped.
[17:10] tiny bit below zero for a month or.
[17:13] something but it was running plus a.
[17:16] little okay when we got involved in that.
[17:19] horrible trade a dealer showed it to us.
[17:23] and the dealer had several other people.
[17:25] um in the trade um the price was minus 2% inflation per year for 7 years.
[17:36] minus 2%.
[17:38] it's the kind of thing where you look around the trading room and ship it in right okay.
[17:46] so to make a long story short a long painful story short that thing went from and implied in the prices um minus 2% per year at the worst minus 4 and a half% per year.
[18:06] to to make this very very uh straightforward in terms of arithmetic the jgb uh I the inflation Linker went down 30% in price.
[18:13] MH that that trip to where we still held it we lost Gob of money um and it was going to.
[18:29] mature just six years or so in the future.
[18:32] but we had lost like 30% of the of the principle and it's these things.
[18:39] are Mark to Market every day um.
[18:43] so that calls to um CA to um action uh a different um um a different set of skills for money managers.
[18:54] a number of people were sold out of that position because when you misunderstand the risk and lever something up that you never should have levered up that way because you misunderstood the C the essential characteristic um you can have devastating losses.
[19:10] we I I had a lot of pressure to onewind the trade but I kept the trade and it's just it was in ' 08.
[19:20] there were a lot of you know do or die positions back uh back then.
[19:27] yeah tell me about about it I was there.
[19:29] why is it so important for you not
[19:32] to lose money where does the risk aversion come from it's a great question.
[19:38] um Elliot was formed in 77 when I was accepted after college to Harvard Law School.
[19:49] the greatest moment of my Dad's life um he was a retail pharmacist a chemist and he was sure I was going to be some really big shot and he was sure that I had to um learn how to invest because I was going to be a financial Big Shot.
[20:11] um I was a Psychology major in college and I had no idea why I was going to law school but Harvard Law School was sounds good might as well and I think my psychology background titilated the um admissions committee um.
[20:23] and so the way my father and I dealt with my training was and retail pharmacist he's he's in the drugstore every day 12 hours a day we traded.
[20:34] speculative mining stocks and tech
[20:37] stocks and I promise you you could not
[20:40] name a way to lose money the dad and I
[20:44] did not hone to the finest uh uh Edge
[20:48] Short Selling long puts short calls uh I
[20:52] was an early adopter of uh the CBO uh
[20:56] CBOE um the options Exchange
[20:59] um and that culminated in a catastrophic
[21:05] loss in the 74 bar
[21:09] Market um where I was long stocks that I
[21:12] was certain because of my intellect uh
[21:15] i' done the
[21:16] research um I certain they would go up
[21:19] and I held them on
[21:20] margin um at one point and I'm talking
[21:23] about $50,000 for my
[21:26] mom's special Dash in the bottom of the
[21:30] dress dresser draw drawers um uh at one
[21:35] point it was down
[21:36] 88% 88% um so um my desire never to lose
[21:42] money again was a combination of wanting
[21:44] to get my mother's my parents' money
[21:46] back um and and the feeling of uh
[21:51] real Devastation I mean losing B and my
[21:56] best friend's the $10,000 and
[21:59] $20,000 um so when we formed Elliot with
[22:03] when I realized that I could manage
[22:06] money and make money all the time the
[22:10] convertible hedging was was a a very
[22:13] good strategy very
[22:15] under underserviced uh you know High
[22:19] standstill rate of return um no real no
[22:24] really good uh valuation models um it
[22:27] was all on the Fly and all relationships
[22:29] with the street and along the way so
[22:34] what I just said is not the full answer
[22:36] to your question along the way what I
[22:39] observed was that when people have
[22:43] losses meaningful losses they tend to
[22:46] lose their minds they tend to lose their
[22:49] judgments their sloppiness in accepting
[22:53] the state of play of the world when the
[22:56] skies are blue um turns into a clutching
[23:01] darkness when uh when the headlines and
[23:05] the stories and the and their friends uh
[23:09] uh are uh in trouble and suffering
[23:12] terrible losses and so I knew that
[23:15] judgment is impaired um I also knew that
[23:20] if you could keep your not only your
[23:22] head and your judgment intact but your
[23:25] Capital intact these rare
[23:29] periods of time when there are special
[23:32] opportunities I mean those last few
[23:34] weeks in '
[23:36] 08 um unbelievable just they everything
[23:41] got cheap and then they collapsed I mean
[23:46] serious go back and look at it go back
[23:48] and look at it so if you had the the the
[23:52] Constitutional as well as uh as well as
[23:56] um um ability by permission as well as
[24:01] the um Capital the exess capital um to
[24:05] take advantage of those uh
[24:07] opportunities that's a pretty cool thing
[24:09] to do so if you don't lose large amounts
[24:13] of money so the capital is like a
[24:16] ratchet effect you make a buck you keep
[24:19] it you try to make another one my
[24:21] clients never held me to a benchmark
[24:24] obviously you have to make some money um
[24:27] um um the the Brilliance of our approach
[24:32] um uh uh is
[24:36] that we don't
[24:39] Benchmark
[24:41] ourselves it's it's what I just told you
[24:43] it's don't lose money and whatever's
[24:47] left hopefully it's a rate of return
[24:50] it's interesting how formative it is if
[24:51] you lose money early on in your career I
[24:53] mean as Steven schwarzman talks about
[24:55] the same thing right how you lose I
[24:57] don't know his story your client's money
[24:59] early on and you just decide you're
[25:00] never going to do it
[25:01] again um you talked about your father
[25:04] are you still trying to make your father
[25:06] proud I appreciate he probably is not
[25:08] alive anymore but you know he was proud
[25:10] of me no matter what to be perfectly
[25:12] candid about it um no I'm not doing it
[25:15] to make my father proud I U I keep doing
[25:18] it because it um I think we do it well
[25:21] and is it fun are you having fun no
[25:23] you're not having fun you don't think
[25:24] it's fun oh I don't think it's fun I
[25:26] think skiing is fun snowmobile dealing
[25:28] is great fun sailing is fun why do you
[25:32] why do you are you 80 you're 80 but what
[25:35] and so if you don't think it's fun why
[25:36] why you're 8 years old why why you
[25:38] you've done it for 50 years you're one
[25:39] of the most successful people ever why
[25:41] why do you continue to do it if you
[25:43] don't think it's fun I get this question
[25:45] I get this question and the reason I
[25:49] basically this is a little different
[25:51] this format but the reason I basically
[25:53] get this question is that I dig in
[25:58] I'm enthusiastic about it I get into it
[26:01] it can't be boring if you think about
[26:04] what you read about in the newspaper
[26:05] which is largely distorted pathetically
[26:09] um so wow they're doing all kinds of
[26:11] different things there's no cookie
[26:12] cutter thing at Elliot so there's
[26:15] challenges and sometimes it's it's uh
[26:19] you know we never have a a position
[26:21] profit celebration never you never
[26:24] celebrate
[26:25] success no I mean we you know hey well
[26:29] done in an email but no cake no
[26:31] champagne no cake no champagne no no no
[26:35] no um but um what I what I want to say
[26:38] on this topic of fun is you can't get
[26:42] bored by not losing serious money um the
[26:48] reason for
[26:49] Burnout is sharply diminished you know
[26:53] that's what happens I mean it's not just
[26:55] horrible divorce or terrible tragedy in
[26:59] the family it's you know burnout is you
[27:02] know I think largely um people just are
[27:06] drained of emotional
[27:08] energy by by adversity because and you
[27:11] can't predict markets so that's that's
[27:13] another a dominant uh cause of me
[27:17] seeking never to lose money because if I
[27:21] want to be risk averse I have to be risk
[27:24] averse all the time what does age and
[27:26] experience bring to to your investment
[27:28] process in our lines of business if
[27:32] someone is not burnt out or bored
[27:38] or fading in terms of
[27:42] capacity the experience and wisdom is so
[27:47] so needed um the in today's world
[27:52] especially um the the layer of
[27:56] understanding Beyond
[27:59] um the
[28:00] spreadsheet and the horrible lawyers
[28:04] telling you you have a 95% chance of
[28:07] winning that antitrust suit and then you
[28:09] lose and you get dark and hostile
[28:12] thoughts to all of your advisers um um
[28:17] so it's
[28:20] that I don't know I don't like this one
[28:25] why Paul why uh just don't like it
[28:29] talking of which you also uh took on
[28:32] Argentina what what happened there
[28:36] Argentina somewhere in the late 90s um
[28:41] early
[28:42] oos um the debt started trading down um
[28:46] into the uh uh 80s and then 70s it was
[28:50] still paying um and many people thought
[28:53] that they would go U default and uh we
[28:57] didn't we didn't uh we knew that they
[29:00] had a history of default um three four
[29:03] times in 150 years we also knew that
[29:06] they were coming out of World War II I
[29:09] think the seventh maybe the
[29:11] eighth largest economy in the world so
[29:15] you know lots of resources lots of
[29:17] capacity we didn't think it was a good
[29:20] idea and we didn't think they would uh
[29:22] default they defaulted and the bonds U
[29:26] and we bought performing bonds the bonds
[29:28] started
[29:29] collapsing um and it was a long time I I
[29:32] don't remember the exact time it was a
[29:34] long time before they um um gave their
[29:38] first offer okay now Sovereign
[29:41] restructurings come in different
[29:43] flavors and I don't want to oversimplify
[29:47] but I think my categories are broadly
[29:51] right um there's a category of
[29:54] countries that um have nothing and
[29:58] you're not going to get anything and
[30:01] you're just being annoying by
[30:04] um going after them so Argentina is a
[30:08] real country and after some period of
[30:11] time I think it was in years um an
[30:14] extraordinary an extraordinary period of
[30:16] time for a sovereign
[30:18] restructuring they came in with a 29
[30:20] Cent deal well maybe it was 30 30 cents
[30:24] now a 30 Cent recovery deal for
[30:28] Sovereign
[30:29] restructuring is a
[30:32] number that might be appropriate for a
[30:37] Guatemala or a Honduras or something
[30:40] Ecuador I don't know but Argentina um
[30:44] 25% of the holders and the the bonds
[30:48] kept the debt kept plunging uh 25% of
[30:53] the holders held out the country said um
[30:56] if you don't um if you don't um uh
[30:59] accept this offer you get nothing so
[31:02] they got a few perc more in a second try
[31:07] at the the same
[31:09] offer like three years
[31:12] later um at the end of the those two
[31:17] offers there were like 60,000 Bond
[31:20] holders including like five hedge funds
[31:23] of which Elliot was the largest and by
[31:26] that time our basis was down down into
[31:28] the I don't know teens or 20s whatever
[31:31] 30s I don't know um um it it had kept
[31:35] trading down and down and down um uh and
[31:39] it was just in litigation for how long
[31:42] time did this take this thing take you
[31:45] 15 years 15 years well that's pretty um
[31:49] that's pretty patient I would argue no
[31:51] it's not patient I tell you why they
[31:55] never accepted our
[31:59] offer to negotiate with them they never
[32:04] put a deal on the table um uh never sat
[32:08] down with us um they were they were an
[32:12] example and there have been some in the
[32:15] corporate area um they were an example
[32:18] of just
[32:20] stubborn um Hoy um entitled I mean the
[32:25] nerve of us no but I love the fact that
[32:29] you don't think he's patient because I'm
[32:32] 58 I make an investment I hope I'm going
[32:33] to get return before I'm 73 yeah but we
[32:36] weren't patient we had no place to go
[32:39] patience is not patience is not sitting
[32:42] you know metaphorically speaking
[32:44] Shackled to no no sure absolutely
[32:46] absolutely what are the state of stock
[32:48] markets today just about as risky as
[32:51] I've ever
[32:52] seen I think um the long period of time
[32:58] um since the last major Market event has
[33:03] led
[33:04] people into thinking that they'll always
[33:07] be bailed out that there'll never be
[33:10] another uh bare Market you know of a
[33:14] 1974
[33:16] 1987 um 2008
[33:20] 20078 um and uh Leverage is uh building
[33:25] and building um risk-taking is building
[33:28] and that those statements uh apply also
[33:32] to um um to governments it's absolutely
[33:37] astonishing this this nerp the negative
[33:42] interest rate policy in uh Europe and
[33:45] Japan and Switzerland um um and zerp for
[33:50] U uh what 10 years in the US it's crazy
[33:56] it's crazy and in
[33:58] pandemic you added to zerp you added
[34:03] these shockingly high spending deficits
[34:08] we're talking about deep recession type
[34:11] spending programs spending deficits
[34:14] support programs um at a time when there
[34:17] was no no real recession MH I'm talking
[34:22] about I'm actually talking about during
[34:24] covid also but after covid um you know
[34:29] this year this fiscal year over 6% uh in
[34:32] the US 6% um of GDP uh deficits so I
[34:38] think there's and and valuations this
[34:42] this AI is way over its skis in terms of
[34:46] uh um practical um value um um being
[34:52] brought to users I mean it the there are
[34:56] uses and there will be additional uses
[34:59] but it's it's way exaggerated how do you
[35:02] read the crypto markets a point that we
[35:04] have recently made is that um it is true
[35:09] that central bank money is conjured out
[35:12] of thin
[35:13] air doesn't
[35:16] exist but what also is true about
[35:19] central bank money is that it is
[35:23] Sovereign it has Sovereign support it's
[35:26] you pay the tax you you pay your army um
[35:31] in that money um to the extent that
[35:36] governments Embrace cryptos this crypto
[35:41] or that crypto or all the cryptos or
[35:44] several of the
[35:46] cryptos they are
[35:48] embracing alternatives to Sovereign
[35:52] money so what are and therefore and
[35:55] therefore is the money Supply going Hog
[35:59] Wild now because of all these cryptos
[36:02] and all of the support of governments so
[36:04] what are the potential implications for
[36:06] the the dollar as the world's Reserve
[36:08] currency that's the
[36:11] point if governments are supporting or
[36:14] endorsing cryptos it's an alternative to
[36:18] the dollar as the reserve currency and
[36:21] countries around the world are uh as you
[36:24] know um uh not happy with the privilege
[36:29] that the uh US Government um uh asserts
[36:34] as the central bank as the reserve
[36:36] currency country of the world they'd
[36:38] like Alternatives Now isn't that
[36:40] interesting they they'd like
[36:42] Alternatives the dollar sits there
[36:45] arride the world uh with all the abuses
[36:48] of that
[36:50] asess okay and the US itself is uh is um
[36:57] Conjuring or
[36:59] supporting an alternative to the dollar
[37:03] it makes my head
[37:06] spin how do you relax skiing
[37:09] snowmobiling
[37:11] sailing
[37:13] hiking
[37:18] biking music why is music important for
[37:21] you I like rock music and I have a
[37:25] couple of bands so you play in the bands
[37:27] mhm keyboards proper like proper rock
[37:30] and
[37:34] roll
[37:36] yes you mean it's distinguished from
[37:39] hip-hop no I'm just asking you it's
[37:42] distinguished from from Lonnie donagan
[37:46] or yes proper rock and roll cool what do
[37:49] you read I I used to read science
[37:53] fiction but I mostly read um trade um
[37:58] books
[37:59] research it's that's kind
[38:02] of um it's kind of overwhelming at this
[38:05] point given how complex markets are
[38:08] it's uh so
[38:11] I don't have time to read fiction
[38:15] anymore what is your advice to young
[38:17] people young people who are interested
[38:20] in Wall Street or young people in
[38:23] general or young people who would like
[38:25] to go into
[38:26] business my advice to those people has
[38:29] been and is
[38:31] um um
[38:34] unchanged uh over a long period of time
[38:38] um that I value a broad classic liberal
[38:46] education um they should not take
[38:48] business courses in college they should
[38:51] take as much history political science
[38:55] philosophy religion
[38:58] um uh as they can fit in so what I'm
[39:02] what I try to convey is you can
[39:05] specialize in business the tools of
[39:08] business and trading I mean now hedge
[39:11] funds private Equity Venture Capital you
[39:14] know Hightech whatever I mean that's the
[39:16] the Golden Goose but um in all of that
[39:20] um what comes out if you if you
[39:22] specialize uh uh too U too soon you get
[39:27] you get this narrow deep skill set and
[39:30] you're not equipped for the things that
[39:32] are actually happening in the world and
[39:34] so um I think um I think that stood me
[39:38] in good stead and being a lawyer has
[39:41] stood me in uh good stad although my my
[39:44] partner is is not a lawyer he thinks
[39:47] like a lawyer which is good well Paul I
[39:49] think these are great pieces of advice
[39:51] um stud liberat broaden out don't lose
[39:55] money and keep rocking and until you're
[39:57] 80 no not till you're 80 till you can't
[40:00] do it
[40:02] anymore it's been a great pleasure thank
[40:04] you thank you