# Passive Income Expert: How To Make $10k Per Month In 90 Days!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QLWlcneJig
Translation: th

[00:00] A lot of people are looking for passive

[00:02] income from side hustles. Yeah, it's the

[00:04] financial ompic and it's more accessible

[00:06] than ever. Like 90% of the ideas I talk

[00:08] about can be launched with $500 or less.

[00:10] And there's [music] enough time in the

[00:12] day to do these on the nights and

[00:13] weekends. So in these three suitcases in

[00:15] front of me, I have three different

[00:16] amounts of money. And during this

[00:18] conversation, I'm going to pass you a

[00:19] box at random. And your job is to tell

[00:21] me what kind of business you would start

[00:23] with that amount of money. Sounds good.

[00:24] Let's do this. Known as the king of side

[00:26] hustles, Chris Kerner has launched over

[00:28] 80 businesses, earning millions in the

[00:31] process. [music]

[00:32] And now, the serial entrepreneur is

[00:34] going to teach us how to adopt a

[00:35] business mindset

[00:36] >> and launch simple, overlooked, but

[00:38] profitable ventures with little money.

[00:40] >> Many of us struggle financially and they

[00:42] see a side hustle as a solution to that.

[00:44] Like for me, growing up kind of poor,

[00:45] business allowed me to take hold of my

[00:47] life and make it what I wanted it to be.

[00:48] And it started when I was 9 years old

[00:50] and wanting a Red Schwin bicycle. My

[00:52] friends had a bicycle. My neighbors had

[00:53] a bicycle and my parents didn't have

[00:55] money for it. But I lived across the

[00:56] street from a golf course and these golf

[00:57] balls would fly in my yard and I would

[00:59] go to my neighbor's yard and go across

[01:00] the street, dig through the ditches and

[01:01] I'd pull out all these golf balls and I

[01:03] started selling them. That was my first

[01:04] business. That taught me that business

[01:06] is approachable and we all have ideas,

[01:08] but we usually don't do anything about

[01:10] it. Why? I think number one, they're

[01:11] afraid of what people think. Number two

[01:13] is they don't have the tools or they're

[01:14] not connecting the tools with the ideas.

[01:16] If we can get over those, the world is

[01:18] our oyster at that point. I have $1,000.

[01:21] What side hustle would you start?

[01:22] >> The first thing that comes to mind is my

[01:24] favorite business idea of all right now.

[01:25] This is a zero employee business. It's

[01:27] highly profitable and that would be so

[01:30] how important is it for you to love the

[01:31] thing to be successful at it? Ignore

[01:33] passion. [music]

[01:34] Follow the profit until you can afford

[01:36] to follow your passion. Do they need a

[01:38] business partner? No. If you look at the

[01:39] stats on business failure rates with

[01:41] companies that have co-founders, it's

[01:43] significantly higher than companies that

[01:45] have solo founders. And how does someone

[01:46] validate a business idea? If I had to

[01:48] pick one tool, it's one that one in four

[01:50] humans use every day.

[01:53] That's everything you need right there.

[01:58] I see messages all the time in the

[02:00] comments section that some of you didn't

[02:01] realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

[02:03] could do me a favor and double check if

[02:05] you're a subscriber to this channel,

[02:06] that would be tremendously appreciated.

[02:07] It's the simple, it's the free thing

[02:09] that anybody that watches this show

[02:11] frequently can do to help us here to

[02:12] keep everything going in this show in

[02:14] the trajectory it's on. So, please do

[02:16] double check if you've subscribed and uh

[02:18] thank you so much because in a strange

[02:19] way you are you're part of our history

[02:22] and you're on this journey with us and I

[02:23] appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank

[02:25] you. [music]

[02:33] Chris,

[02:34] >> who are you and what is the mission that

[02:37] you're [clears throat] on?

[02:39] >> I am a father. I am a husband and I'm a

[02:43] serial entrepreneur and I love talking

[02:46] about business and starting businesses

[02:48] and inspiring other people to do the

[02:50] same.

[02:51] >> Why business has given me everything.

[02:54] Um, growing up kind of poor, it was my

[02:57] outlet. It was my way of just kind of

[02:59] taking hold of my life and making it

[03:01] what I wanted it to be. And I have

[03:04] immense gratitude for that. Um, and I

[03:06] love I just love talking about it. I

[03:09] it's the only thing I know you I can't

[03:11] talk to you about history or nutrition

[03:12] or anything, but when it comes to

[03:14] business, I just love it and I want

[03:15] other people to love it as well. How

[03:18] have you made your name in the world of

[03:20] business? Because I've heard your name a

[03:21] lot recently. People call you the king

[03:23] of side hustles.

[03:25] Where has this come from? I think I just

[03:28] published my life on the internet now.

[03:30] Um, I I'm always testing and launching

[03:33] and starting businesses, but only over

[03:36] the last couple years have I started

[03:37] publishing that. And

[03:40] I didn't try to be like the king of side

[03:42] hustles. That's not something that I've

[03:43] ever like intentionally tried to brand

[03:45] myself as, but I think people see what I

[03:47] do as a side hustle and they call it

[03:50] that. But I think that anything is

[03:52] scalable. Any side hustle could could be

[03:54] a multi-million dollar business. Um, I

[03:56] mean, we we live on a planet with eight

[03:58] billion people and we're all connected

[03:59] and anything can be scaled.

[04:01] >> And you make a lot of content now, so

[04:02] you've probably had a bit of a feedback

[04:05] loop in terms of understanding what it

[04:08] is that you say and do and create that's

[04:10] resonant with people and also why it's

[04:12] resonant like what is the crux of what

[04:14] people like my audiences are are looking

[04:16] for. As humans, we all want a silver

[04:20] bullet. We want a solution to our

[04:22] problems and many of us struggle

[04:25] financially um and they see a side

[04:27] hustle as as an outlet to that or as a

[04:30] solution to that. I think everyone has

[04:32] ideas. um most people are very hesitant

[04:36] to execute on those ideas. And so when

[04:39] they see someone like me freely

[04:40] executing on all the ideas, it hopefully

[04:44] it opens their mind and helps them look

[04:46] at their ideas in a different way or a

[04:48] more approachable way and maybe gives

[04:51] them confidence to do the same. In the

[04:53] boxes in front of me here, I have three

[04:55] different amounts of money. $500, I

[04:58] think I have $1,000, and $5,000. And

[05:01] during this conversation, I'm going to

[05:03] pass you a box at random. And your job

[05:05] is to tell me what kind of business you

[05:07] would start with that amount of money

[05:08] because I know my audience, you know,

[05:10] they're many of them are interested in

[05:11] starting their own business one day. And

[05:13] I use specifically sort of low amounts

[05:15] of money just to make it as accessible

[05:17] to them as possible. So, we will do that

[05:18] at some point. I'll pass you the boxes.

[05:20] You give me three business ideas. You'll

[05:21] start with $500, $1,000, and $5,000. Um,

[05:25] but I want to get a view on on you and

[05:28] the businesses that you've started and

[05:30] the sort of the variety of success

[05:31] you've had. So, can you give me an

[05:32] overview?

[05:33] >> Yeah. So, I was 9 years old living in

[05:36] Utah and I lived across the street from

[05:38] a golf course and these golf balls would

[05:40] fly in my yard and I don't know what

[05:42] gave me the idea, but I started selling

[05:45] them. Um, I just wanted money for a

[05:46] bike. I wanted this Schwin bicycle and

[05:49] it was red and my friends had a bicycle,

[05:51] my neighbors had a bicycle and my

[05:52] parents didn't have money for it. And so

[05:54] for whatever reason, I connected that

[05:55] white golf ball in my grass with money.

[05:58] And I would go to my neighbor's yards,

[06:01] I'd go across the street, I'd dig

[06:02] through the ditches, and I'd pull out

[06:03] all these golf balls. I'd wash them. And

[06:04] then I put up this huge piece of plywood

[06:06] in front of my house that said golf

[06:08] balls three for a dollar. And that was

[06:10] my first business. And at the time, it

[06:13] was just normal. It was natural. Uh I

[06:15] didn't know any different. And now I

[06:17] have a 9-year-old, and I was nine when I

[06:19] did that. And we live on a busy road

[06:21] today. I lived on a busy road then. And

[06:23] the thought of him like negotiating,

[06:26] haggling with grown-ups wearing polo

[06:28] shirts on our doorstep is unfathomable.

[06:31] But that's what I was doing. And that

[06:33] planted the seed that kind of taught me

[06:35] that business is approachable. Um,

[06:38] preferably it's approachable.

[06:40] Approachable and scalable can be the

[06:41] same thing. They don't have to be at

[06:42] odds with one another. So, and how many

[06:44] businesses have you started since then?

[06:46] >> I lose count. I have a spreadsheet. Um,

[06:48] but it's at least 80.

[06:51] And what's the what have the outcomes

[06:53] been? How much money have you made? What

[06:54] kind of how has that changed your life?

[06:56] What freedom has that given you?

[06:57] >> Yeah. So, cumulatively uh all of the

[07:00] businesses have generated low hundreds

[07:02] of millions of revenue. Um low tens of

[07:05] millions of profit. Um but on a real

[07:08] number basis,

[07:10] the majority of them have been abandoned

[07:13] or fizzled out or failed or there was

[07:16] too much opportunity cost so I pivoted

[07:18] to something else. Um, it's just a

[07:20] numbers game.

[07:22] >> And how has that changed your life? What

[07:24] does your lifestyle look like?

[07:26] >> My life is awesome. Um, we built our

[07:28] dream house in our 20s. Uh, we had all

[07:30] four of our kids in our 20s. We travel a

[07:33] lot. Uh, we're I've been married for 17

[07:35] years. We're a very close family. We

[07:37] take a lot of trips. Um, we live in a

[07:40] good school district, but my kids go to

[07:42] public school and, um, we have

[07:44] everything we need and more, and we're

[07:46] very grateful for that.

[07:47] What is the overt sort of underpinning

[07:50] mentality that's required for someone to

[07:53] be successful at starting businesses in

[07:55] the way that you started them? Starting

[07:56] these side hustles at volume and seeing

[08:00] success. Is there like a foundational

[08:01] mentality or personality or character

[08:04] trait required before we get into the

[08:06] tactics? Yeah, the

[08:09] I should say that the the pain of your

[08:13] problem needs to be greater than how

[08:16] much you care about what people think

[08:17] about you. It needs to get to that point

[08:20] because by far that is the biggest

[08:22] roadblock to success is people caring

[08:24] too much about what people think about

[08:26] them. And so they don't want to do the

[08:28] thing or they don't want to talk about

[08:30] doing the thing because some random

[08:32] person from high school follows them on

[08:34] Facebook and might comment something,

[08:36] right? Which is really silly, but I I've

[08:38] been there. I get it. Right? If we can

[08:40] get over that, if we can just flip the

[08:42] switch in our brain that says people are

[08:44] thinking about me, people are caring

[08:45] about me and just switch that to off.

[08:48] Right? Because the world is our oyster

[08:50] at that point. And in terms of where we

[08:53] sit at this moment of time with

[08:54] technology, with AI, with in fast

[08:57] internet, with mobile phones, do you

[08:59] think this is the best time for people

[09:01] to start something to to start a side

[09:04] hustle or to try? Every day that goes

[09:06] by, the timing gets better for people,

[09:09] right? Things are getting more

[09:10] competitive, but there are more tools

[09:12] than ever. Um, 10 years ago, if I wanted

[09:16] to start a business, and this is like

[09:17] the internet's in full swing, social

[09:19] media is in full swing, I probably had

[09:20] to spend a lot of money or move to San

[09:22] Francisco or raise venture capital.

[09:24] That's like I I would love for you to

[09:28] try to convince me. Try to give me an

[09:29] idea where you have to raise money or

[09:31] where you have to go allin or where you

[09:33] you have to quit your job. It doesn't

[09:35] exist. With all these AI tools, software

[09:38] tools, you can make a website with one

[09:39] prompt. You can make an app with one

[09:41] prompt. You could post to Facebook

[09:43] Marketplace and have hundreds of

[09:44] inquiries within an hour. You could post

[09:46] Facebook ads. You could go to

[09:47] Craigslist. Like, you could put a sign

[09:49] up in front of your house. You could go

[09:51] launch a survey to people. Like, there

[09:53] are so many tools for testing and

[09:55] validating and experimenting with these

[09:57] concepts that it is more accessible than

[10:00] ever. Why don't people?

[10:04] I think number one is they're afraid of

[10:06] what people think. Number two is they

[10:08] don't have the tools or at least they're

[10:10] not connecting the tools with the ideas,

[10:12] right? They'll use Facebook Marketplace

[10:14] to sell a sectional, but then they won't

[10:17] think to use it when validating their

[10:20] woodworking idea, right? They're just

[10:23] not connecting the dots. There's too

[10:24] many tools in a sense, so we don't know

[10:26] how to tie them all together. Um,

[10:30] they also probably don't know

[10:33] like how much the law of abundance is a

[10:35] real thing, right? People think business

[10:38] is a zero sum game. What does that mean?

[10:40] >> Well, they think that things are

[10:41] oversaturated. They'll have an idea for

[10:43] a product or a service and then they'll

[10:45] get really excited and then they'll go

[10:47] Google it and then we'll see it exists

[10:48] and they'll move on. And when I do that

[10:50] and I see it exists, I'm like, "Yes,

[10:52] this is it. Someone someone went to the

[10:55] front lines of the battlefield and

[10:56] validated this for me." And then I'll go

[10:58] to the web archive. I'll go to who is

[11:01] and I'll go look at what their website

[11:03] has looked like over the last decade.

[11:05] See where they started. Maybe their

[11:06] product was $99. Now it's like 49 every

[11:10] 2 months. Interesting. Okay. I'll look

[11:13] at the the copy of their headline. I'll

[11:15] look at like how many tabs they have on

[11:18] their website. Do they post their

[11:19] Instagram feed on? I'll look at all

[11:21] these things and see how it's evolved

[11:22] over time and think awesome. I'm going

[11:26] to start where he's at today. like this

[11:27] guy already proved it out for me. He

[11:29] took all the risk. This is amazing. This

[11:31] exists. I don't need to like do it

[11:33] better. I don't need to do it

[11:34] differently. I just need to do the same

[11:36] thing. Um and the market is big enough,

[11:39] the world is big enough to where I can

[11:41] win as well.

[11:42] >> You said um web archive. What role does

[11:44] web archive play? What is that for

[11:46] anyone that isn't familiar? And how do

[11:47] you use that?

[11:48] >> Yeah, it's just a tool that shows

[11:50] snapshots uh over time of what a website

[11:52] looks like, right? So, it's a great way

[11:54] of kind of reverse engineering what

[11:56] businesses have done to be successful.

[11:59] And then there's another tool called

[12:00] Similar Web where you can see what their

[12:02] traffic has been over time. And you can

[12:04] kind of overlay the two and you can say,

[12:06] "Oh, interesting. When they when they

[12:08] redesigned their website to be more

[12:09] mobile friendly, their traffic went from

[12:12] 3,000 a month to 4500 a month.

[12:15] Interesting. I'm just going to make it

[12:16] mobile friendly from day one." Right? So

[12:18] we are at a great advantage when we

[12:20] start where our competitors or our

[12:23] future competitors already are instead

[12:25] of starting where we think we need to be

[12:27] starting like trying to be different or

[12:29] innovative or unique. In my experience,

[12:31] that's more of like a signal of our

[12:33] pride or our ego. We feel kind of like

[12:36] weird or odd or even dirty or unethical

[12:39] if we're just like copying and pasting a

[12:41] business. Even if we had the original

[12:43] idea ourselves when really there's

[12:45] nothing to be ashamed of. We don't want

[12:47] to steal their intellectual property or

[12:49] their logo or anything, but copy what's

[12:51] already working.

[12:53] >> People think, you know, people don't

[12:54] think that that's a thing because they

[12:56] think if I copy a business that's

[12:58] already working, then I'm not going to

[12:59] get any customers because that this

[13:01] existing business has all the customers.

[13:04] >> But it's interesting. I had someone on

[13:05] the show where they talked about how

[13:07] some of the greatest entrepreneurs in

[13:08] the world basically just copy 95% of the

[13:10] blueprint. I think it was Walmart. I

[13:11] think he was talking about Walmart, but

[13:13] yeah, they copied other like regional

[13:15] grocery chains. Mhm. [clears throat]

[13:17] Copying as a strategy.

[13:18] >> Yeah.

[13:20] Have you done that?

[13:21] >> Oh, absolutely.

[13:22] >> Give me an example.

[13:24] >> Okay. Well, I I had a phone repair

[13:27] business in when I was in college, 2010,

[13:31] and I got a call one day from someone

[13:34] that said, "Hey, Chris, I want to buy

[13:36] all of your broken iPhone screens." Do

[13:38] you have any broken iPhone screens?

[13:39] Sure. We don't throw them away cuz we

[13:41] think it's bad for the environment. We

[13:42] just have a box of them. How much will

[13:44] you pay me? three bucks a piece. Why?

[13:47] Why? Why will you pay me $3? It's just

[13:49] broken glass. And they said, "Well,

[13:51] there's actually a way of

[13:52] remanufacturing these. We can send them

[13:54] to China. We can remove the broken

[13:55] glass, put new glass on them, and then

[13:57] we can resell them as a remanufactured

[13:59] unit." And that was just like a light

[14:01] bulb, right? So, most people, I think,

[14:03] at this point, would say, "Yeah, like,

[14:05] yeah, where do I ship these?" You know,

[14:07] but I was like, "Oh, I need to be in

[14:09] that business. I want to copy that guy

[14:11] who called me." right now. I don't know

[14:13] what his website was. I don't know. I

[14:15] don't know what the name of his business

[14:16] was. There was no web archive at the

[14:18] time to look at. I just wanted to copy

[14:20] the business model cuz I thought this is

[14:22] going to be a thing. I'm in the

[14:24] industry. I know the industry. I'm going

[14:26] to do this as well. We did 2 million the

[14:28] first year, then five, and then nine,

[14:30] and then we exited a few years after

[14:32] that.

[14:33] >> It's interesting, but you know, you

[14:34] often don't think that

[14:36] everyone's in search of a new idea.

[14:38] >> Mhm.

[14:40] >> And it's tough to find new ideas. Yeah,

[14:42] like I think was it Einstein that said

[14:44] there's no such thing as a new idea?

[14:45] Sounds right. But you have an

[14:47] orientation just to look at existing

[14:48] models and to replicate them. Do you put

[14:50] a spin on it at all? I'll develop my own

[14:54] spins over time. Right. Because we're

[14:56] all a product of our environment. And so

[14:58] in in the case of this business, I

[15:01] started copying. Exactly. Right. Um I

[15:03] went and found people in China. I just

[15:05] went to Alibaba. I messaged a ton of

[15:08] people that sold iPhone screens and I

[15:09] said, "Do you recycle? Do you recycle?

[15:11] did you recycle? And like five or 10% of

[15:13] them said yes. So then I shipped them

[15:15] samples and then they shipped me some

[15:17] back and and then over time I started

[15:20] like taking some marketing principles

[15:22] principles from previous businesses like

[15:24] Facebook ads, cold calling and I started

[15:26] applying them just cuz I didn't know how

[15:28] this other competitor was finding

[15:30] success. I knew he was cold calling and

[15:32] that was working. That's all I knew.

[15:33] Remember I didn't even know the name of

[15:34] his business. And so over time, you

[15:37] start using your previous experiences to

[15:39] apply these tweaks to the business and

[15:41] to make it your own. But if you do that

[15:43] right at the outset, right? Like if I

[15:46] got a call and he said, "I want to buy

[15:47] your broken iPhone screens." And I said,

[15:48] "Okay, I'm going to do that, but I don't

[15:50] want to just sell iPhone screens. That's

[15:51] lame. I'm going to do Samsung." Right?

[15:54] Pretty good chance there's not even a

[15:55] market for that or there's not even a

[15:56] method for that. And because of my my

[15:58] ego, my pride, my unwillingness to just

[16:01] copy what's already working, I wouldn't

[16:03] that I wouldn't have that successful

[16:05] business in my back pocket. Right?

[16:08] [clears throat]

[16:08] >> So, if you do twists in the beginning,

[16:10] it's kind of like your um I'm kind of

[16:13] thinking of an analogy like if you're on

[16:14] a long road trip and you start taking

[16:16] detours early on or if a flight is on a

[16:19] flight path and he starts like getting

[16:21] off track just a little bit at the

[16:22] beginning, he's going to end off he's

[16:24] going to end up hundreds of miles away

[16:25] from his destination. But if he starts

[16:27] making tweaks along the way, then he'll

[16:30] be much closer to where he would have

[16:31] been anyway.

[16:32] >> Mhm. And you [clears throat] might reach

[16:34] a better destination with some of those

[16:36] >> tweaks because you're blending it with

[16:38] your your experience, what you know

[16:40] better than the person that you're

[16:41] copying.

[16:42] >> And so it's important to to copy the

[16:44] model exactly at the beginning because

[16:46] you're also going to learn what it is

[16:48] about that existing model that works.

[16:50] Yeah.

[16:51] >> And therefore what you can iterate on,

[16:52] change, expand. If you if you didn't,

[16:54] then you might miss something. Exactly.

[16:56] Cuz so often I made the mistake of

[16:59] looking at another business and saying,

[17:01] "Oh man, why are they doing that? Why

[17:03] are they charging like that? Why? Like

[17:04] they're charging all these different

[17:06] things. That's so confusing." I made

[17:07] this mistake. I had a an e-commerce

[17:09] fulfillment business where brands would

[17:11] send us all their products. We had this

[17:13] big warehouse and we would ship all all

[17:15] of their stuff out, right? And I was

[17:18] like, "Why do they have storage fees,

[17:20] pick pack, and ship fees? They they

[17:22] charge fees for tracking their

[17:24] expiration dates. They charge extra fees

[17:27] if there's five items in a box versus

[17:28] four. Like there's so much friction

[17:30] there. That's so messy. Like we're going

[17:32] to make this simple. We're going to just

[17:34] one flat fee, no storage fee, and that's

[17:36] going to be our differentiator, right?

[17:38] And then over time, over the course of

[17:39] months and years, we learned, oh,

[17:42] storage fees. It's because sometimes

[17:44] your customers go out of business and

[17:46] then you're left holding the bill and

[17:48] like your storage costs are actually

[17:49] very high but there's nothing to pass

[17:51] on. Oh, pick back and ship fees because

[17:54] you learn all these things and you're

[17:56] like, "Okay, I wasn't like this genius

[17:58] that had an MBA. I was just like trying

[18:00] to put my own spin on it cuz I thought I

[18:01] was smarter than that business owner."

[18:03] Turns out someone that's been doing this

[18:04] for 15 years versus 15 days knows a lot

[18:07] more about the industry than me. And I'm

[18:09] much better off just copying his

[18:10] pricing, copying the layout of his

[18:12] website, copying the size of the

[18:14] warehouse he has, copying the same niche

[18:16] that he's going after, cuz that's

[18:18] clearly working for him. So, I don't

[18:20] make that mistake anymore. I don't I

[18:22] don't assume that other competitors are

[18:24] idiots, right? Yeah.

[18:26] >> I've been proven wrong too many times. I

[18:27] assume that they're doing that because

[18:31] they've learned the hard way. Yeah.

[18:33] >> And if I copy them, then I won't have to

[18:34] learn the hard way.

[18:35] >> I had um several of our executives over

[18:37] at my house over the last couple of days

[18:39] and we were looking at different models

[18:41] of so basically we're looking at other

[18:43] companies that do similar things to us

[18:45] that have been around for a long time.

[18:46] And the question that I ended up asking

[18:48] at one moment when I was had the exact

[18:50] same epiphany. I was like why do they do

[18:51] it that way? Isn't that shitty?

[18:53] >> And there was a second where I think we

[18:55] were tempted to try and reinvent the

[18:57] wheel. But the question I ask myself now

[18:59] with the wisdom of like many years of

[19:01] business is like why did it end up that

[19:03] way?

[19:05] >> Which is why did our competitor who's

[19:06] been doing this for 50 years end up

[19:09] there?

[19:10] >> Because that as you said there's clearly

[19:12] a set of things that have happened that

[19:15] have made them conclude whether it's at

[19:17] scale or some other factor that's made

[19:19] them conclude that this is the best way

[19:20] of doing it. And just like you I've been

[19:22] wrong so many times where I've thought

[19:24] they're just idiots. That's why they

[19:25] they they can't see this obvious thing.

[19:27] But actually their model is stress

[19:28] tested in the market much more than mine

[19:31] is. So maybe I should

[19:33] >> I should put my ego aside and at least

[19:35] start how they start as you said which I

[19:37] think is really important advice.

[19:38] >> Yeah. Well, there are times when a

[19:40] company just keeps doing something

[19:41] because it works.

[19:42] >> Yeah.

[19:42] >> And so they don't take the time to test

[19:44] something that works better,

[19:46] >> right?

[19:46] >> But it's almost impossible to guess what

[19:48] that is, right? Like if a if a clothing

[19:51] brand is growing their business entirely

[19:52] through Facebook ads um and they've just

[19:55] never tried Google ads, maybe Google ads

[19:57] could convert twice as better. Twice

[19:59] twice better, right? But I don't want to

[20:01] guess that. I just want to start with

[20:02] Facebook ads and then I'll still take 5%

[20:04] of my budget and start testing other

[20:06] concepts. But nine times out of 10, I

[20:08] ended up just coming right back to

[20:10] Facebook ads. It got me thinking about

[20:12] how in business basically everything,

[20:14] again speaking broadly here, can be put

[20:16] into one of two categories. either like

[20:18] old problems where thousands of people

[20:20] have come before you and the same

[20:22] solutions and same thinking is still

[20:25] relevant and then new problems you know

[20:27] things like AI have created a set of new

[20:29] problems new opportunities as well and

[20:32] what I tend to find is that like 95% of

[20:34] the things in business are like old

[20:35] problems like hiring cash flow how

[20:37] finance is done legal all those kinds of

[20:39] things

[20:40] >> and the and when when you're dealing

[20:42] with a new an old problem expertise is

[20:44] usually the answer which is like find

[20:46] someone who knows hire someone or mentor

[20:48] or whatever and then you have these new

[20:50] problems where

[20:51] >> there is no blueprint in our industry.

[20:53] It's a new new challenge. So

[20:55] experimentation is the answer. Does that

[20:57] like broadly hold in your in your mind?

[20:59] >> Oh 100%. Yeah. I I like to say test

[21:01] everything except drugs.

[21:03] >> Like we're always testing. Um it's the

[21:06] basis to everything we do.

[21:08] >> But do you test when it's an old

[21:09] problem?

[21:10] >> Can you give me an example? So

[21:13] like things like cash flow management um

[21:17] >> hiring principles around like probation

[21:20] and uh notice periods

[21:24] um a lot of legal structuring and deals

[21:27] things with like a wellestablished

[21:28] president

[21:29] >> well established presidents where like

[21:30] nothing has fundamentally changed in the

[21:32] world that makes that invalid. Yeah, I

[21:36] think if it's an old problem, I look to

[21:38] an example of someone within the last

[21:40] decade that's solved it in an

[21:42] interesting way and I'm more likely to

[21:44] copy that. Like in hiring, traditionally

[21:47] companies will they'll spend hours and

[21:49] weeks or days hiring, going from round

[21:51] to round to round, person. And if you

[21:53] look at Y Combinator, arguably the

[21:55] greatest, you know, startup incubator in

[21:57] the world, they have seven-minute

[21:58] interviews. Um, and they said they would

[22:00] make it five minutes, but it just felt

[22:02] rude, right? and in their interviews,

[22:05] they really know in the first three

[22:06] minutes if it's a fit or not, and then

[22:08] the interview's done. Like, they're

[22:09] either in or they're not. I I approach

[22:11] hiring the same way. Um, I would much

[22:13] rather um take a like a a law of large

[22:17] numbers approach to it and give five

[22:20] people 30 days to show what their skills

[22:24] are as opposed to spending 30 days going

[22:26] all in on one person. Because in my

[22:28] experience, that one person that I spent

[22:30] 30 days on is not any more likely to

[22:32] succeed than those those other five

[22:34] people that I might be testing.

[22:36] >> Okay.

[22:38] And your example of that storage company

[22:40] you started.

[22:40] >> Mhm.

[22:41] >> It sounds like you hit an old problem.

[22:43] >> Yes, very much so.

[22:44] >> And you tried to innovate and

[22:46] experiment, but this was an old problem

[22:47] where the laws of human beings and how

[22:48] they behave and businesses going bust

[22:50] was still pertinent.

[22:51] >> Yeah. And at the end of our our 2-year

[22:53] experiment, like we look just like all

[22:55] of our competitors, right? So, if we

[22:57] would have started there, we could have

[22:59] saved two years.

[23:00] >> And this is what I find is founders

[23:03] waste years trying to experiment where

[23:06] old problems are still um strong and

[23:09] still hold.

[23:10] >> Yeah.

[23:10] >> And this is what I the mistake several

[23:11] of the mistakes I made in my company was

[23:13] I should have spent all of my time

[23:14] experimenting on the new problems.

[23:15] >> Uhhuh. and should have hired people to

[23:18] tell me um how to navigate the old

[23:21] problems.

[23:21] >> Yeah.

[23:22] >> What what was your um I think one of the

[23:24] videos that made you go pretty viral was

[23:26] your story of

[23:28] >> BIES. We don't know what BIES is around

[23:30] the world. I think it's a US brand.

[23:32] >> Yeah.

[23:32] >> But this shows I think how you've always

[23:34] had an orientation to think slightly

[23:36] differently or in innovatively.

[23:37] >> Yeah.

[23:38] >> What happened with BIES?

[23:39] >> So this was during the time when I was

[23:41] running that business shipping products

[23:42] for other companies. Right. Bies is a

[23:45] gas station brand uh with only 50

[23:47] locations. And from those 50 locations,

[23:49] they do billions of dollars of revenue.

[23:52] I say gas station, they're between

[23:54] 40,000 and 80,000 square feet. Wow.

[23:56] >> They're massive. They have an amazing

[23:58] brand, an amazing logo, and they just

[24:01] have a lot of trust from their

[24:03] customers. But these gas stations are

[24:05] like they're on the way out to these

[24:06] road trip destinations. They're out in

[24:08] the middle of nowhere. And so if you're

[24:09] if you live in Dallas and you're driving

[24:11] down to the beach, you're going to stop

[24:12] by Bies on the way there and on the way

[24:13] back, and you're probably going to spend

[24:15] hundreds of dollars, right? You're going

[24:16] to fill up the tank, then you're going

[24:17] to buy shirts and snacks and all that

[24:19] stuff. So, at the time we were running

[24:21] this e-commerce fulfillment business, we

[24:23] went to Buckies. I brought my cousin, my

[24:25] business partner, um, just to kind of

[24:27] show him the experience. And we were

[24:30] just having a conversation. I remember

[24:31] exactly where I was. I was like under

[24:33] this underpass, this huge under pass in

[24:35] DFW. We were driving home and I said,

[24:37] "Man, these guys must kill it online.

[24:39] They must sell so much stuff." Um,

[24:42] >> why?

[24:43] >> Because I knew that Disney sells like

[24:45] billions of dollars of t-shirts on their

[24:47] website, right? I read a stat recently.

[24:49] So, I kind of just took that data point,

[24:51] connected it to Bies, and said, "All

[24:52] right, Bies is a fraction of the size of

[24:54] Disney, but they have the same amount of

[24:56] brand loyalty. People love their shirts.

[24:58] You'll see their shirts all over the

[24:59] world, even though they only have 50

[25:01] locations like in the Southeast, right?"

[25:03] And so we went to their website and

[25:05] there was no shop button. There was no

[25:07] place to buy their stuff and I was just

[25:09] like like all the light bulbs were going

[25:12] off at once, right? It was like, "Oh my

[25:14] gosh, okay, we need to reach out to

[25:16] them. Like we need to bring them

[25:17] online." I just had all these ideas and

[25:19] my cousin is is much more balanced than

[25:22] I am. He's like the the operator and I'm

[25:25] like the ADHD crazy guy, right? So his

[25:27] role is to like calm me down and he's

[25:29] very good at that. But I just couldn't

[25:31] be calmed down from this. I'm like, "No,

[25:33] no, no. We got to do something here.

[25:35] We're going to buy one of everything.

[25:37] We're going to hire a photographer to

[25:39] take pictures of it. We're going to

[25:40] launch our own BIES online store, and

[25:43] we're going to try to go viral." Like,

[25:45] it's viral or bust, right? If we don't

[25:46] go viral, then I'll just be eating these

[25:49] unhealthy snacks for the next 3 years of

[25:51] my life. And so, we did. We bought one

[25:53] of everything. Uh, it cost thousands of

[25:55] dollars. I brought all four of my kids.

[25:57] And, uh, we brought it back to our

[25:58] warehouse. We took pictures of it. We

[26:00] launched a website. Um, and I emailed

[26:03] all the reporters I could find. Uh, and

[26:06] one of them just loved the idea. He ran

[26:09] with it. And so he reached out to BIES

[26:11] for comment cuz they wouldn't respond to

[26:12] my cold emails. I wanted to launch this

[26:14] like with them in tandem, but who am I?

[26:16] They didn't care about me. And I don't

[26:17] blame them. And so he wrote this big

[26:20] article about me. Millions of people

[26:22] read it. All these other news outlets uh

[26:24] wrote about it. And we did hundreds of

[26:26] thousands of of dollars in our first 30

[26:28] days organically from that.

[26:30] How did Bies feel about that?

[26:32] >> They wanted us to make some key changes

[26:34] to the website. They wanted us to like

[26:37] basically put disclaimers everywhere

[26:39] that said we are not Bies. We're not

[26:41] affiliated with Bies. They wanted us to

[26:43] change the name. It had the word beaver

[26:44] in the name. That's their mascot. They

[26:47] just they didn't want it to be confusing

[26:48] at all. So, we made all those changes

[26:51] and then we got like the unofficial

[26:53] thumbs up from them. They said, "We're

[26:54] not going to sign anything, but like you

[26:56] have our blessing. Um, have fun." And

[26:59] did that website make you a lot of

[27:00] money?

[27:01] >> Yeah, it still is. It's been 5 years. We

[27:03] still own it, 100% of it, and it's going

[27:05] great.

[27:05] >> And it's made you millions.

[27:06] >> Uh-huh.

[27:09] >> What can someone listening take from

[27:11] that in terms of applying that to their

[27:14] own life, finding opportunities like

[27:16] that out in the world, or is that just a

[27:17] oneandone? Is there only one opportunity

[27:19] like that? Okay. So, specific, I get

[27:22] asked that question a lot. How could

[27:23] someone do that with another brand?

[27:26] I don't know. If if there was another

[27:28] brand out there like that, I would be

[27:30] doing it, right? Trader Joe's is

[27:32] similar, but they're very ligious. Um I

[27:35] think that was kind of lightning in a

[27:36] bottle for that particular experiment as

[27:39] in launching an online brand for an

[27:41] in-person business. Okay. But people

[27:43] should not be disheartened hearing that

[27:45] because on a macro level like people

[27:49] should take their curious ideas very

[27:52] seriously. [snorts] They need to shorten

[27:54] the amount of time spent between having

[27:56] the idea and doing something about that

[27:59] idea

[28:00] >> because that will strengthen their bias

[28:03] for action muscle, right? We all have

[28:06] ideas, some of them good, some of them

[28:07] bad on a regular basis. We usually don't

[28:10] do anything about it. It's just a

[28:11] passing thought, right? Whether it's a

[28:13] business idea or a hard conversation I

[28:15] need to have with something, any idea,

[28:17] right? But the the the more we shrink

[28:20] the amount of time between doing

[28:22] something about that idea and having the

[28:24] idea that that idea, the more often

[28:26] we'll do that. And it becomes this

[28:27] self-perpetuating snowball that just

[28:30] compounds. And then before we know it,

[28:32] we'll get more ideas. We'll do more

[28:34] about those ideas. We'll be testing

[28:35] things. We'll be learning tools. We'll

[28:37] be experimenting. And we'll have a whole

[28:40] portfolio of businesses. Is there

[28:42] something in your mentality or

[28:44] perspective though where you walk into a

[28:45] Buckies and you even think about how you

[28:47] could do something whereas most people

[28:48] walk into a Bies and buy their stuff and

[28:50] leave? Like is there something

[28:51] foundational in the way that you're

[28:52] looking at the world? Yeah. But I don't

[28:54] think I'm any different. I think um I

[28:58] think a lot of people have ideas like

[28:59] that. Like you walk into a BIES and you

[29:02] see something about something that could

[29:04] be improved and people have these

[29:06] passing thoughts and they move on. I

[29:08] think that you become an expert at doing

[29:12] something about those ideas. When you do

[29:14] something about those ideas, you just

[29:15] you get better at at what you do, at

[29:17] what you test,

[29:18] >> cuz you've built up some kind of muscle,

[29:20] which means that you don't really care

[29:22] about it seems failure as much as the

[29:24] average person. And also in that

[29:27] particular case,

[29:28] >> the average person might think, well,

[29:29] I've got no experience in doing that.

[29:30] >> Mhm. No, no one has any experience in

[29:33] anything until they do it, right? Like

[29:35] every every expert started out as a

[29:37] beginner, right?

[29:40] Sometimes though, people try this and

[29:43] they learn h doesn't give them energy.

[29:46] It's not for them. That's okay. Now,

[29:48] when they have ideas, they can know, all

[29:50] right, box checked. That's not really

[29:52] for me. That entrepreneurship thinks

[29:54] someone else needs to do that. And

[29:55] great, good. All the power to them. I

[29:58] just want people to answer that question

[30:00] for themselves. I hate seeing regret in

[30:03] people's faces. Like I have friends that

[30:06] want to start a business. They've always

[30:07] talked about it and I know they would be

[30:09] good at it and I know it just eats them

[30:10] up and they have really really good

[30:12] ideas objectively and I I just hate

[30:16] seeing them have that question for the

[30:18] rest of their lives. I just want them to

[30:20] to taste entrepreneurship.

[30:23] Is it for everybody though? You know,

[30:25] you can think think of all your friends.

[30:27] >> Yeah.

[30:27] >> You can probably put them in groups of

[30:29] this person should, this person

[30:30] shouldn't. Mhm. And what defines who

[30:32] goes in which group?

[30:35] >> To me, it's how far they go in doing

[30:39] something about that idea because I will

[30:42] have friends that will text me ideas or

[30:45] talk to me about ideas and then I never

[30:46] hear from them again about that thing. I

[30:49] don't worry about them. Right? I I feel

[30:52] like there's a selection bias at play.

[30:54] Like if they really wanted to do

[30:56] something about it, they would get a

[30:57] little further down the line. They'd

[30:59] follow up with me. that's, hey, I did

[31:00] this thing. Cuz I'll always give them

[31:02] tips and feedback. You should do this.

[31:03] You should try this. And they'll follow

[31:04] up. And then, you know, at some point

[31:07] along the line, it'll die, right? But if

[31:10] they don't get any further than just

[31:11] telling me their idea, then

[31:14] I don't I don't lose sleep over them.

[31:16] >> So, it's kind of surviv. It's kind of

[31:18] sort of self- selecting itself anyway.

[31:19] >> It is entrepreneurship.

[31:21] >> Yeah. Absolutely. But then I have other

[31:22] friends that are like they'll follow up,

[31:23] they'll follow up, they'll follow up,

[31:25] and then and then it dies, which is

[31:27] okay. A lot of my ideas die, too. And to

[31:29] me, that's a signal that it was supposed

[31:30] to die, right? I'll just move on to the

[31:32] next thing. Um, so it's those people

[31:34] that maybe I'm just biased and they look

[31:36] more like me, you know? Um, maybe that's

[31:39] not an accurate signal or not, but if

[31:41] they look more like me, then that's a

[31:42] signal that they they should get further

[31:45] down the line and actually launch

[31:46] something that gets to revenue. Yeah.

[31:48] >> In your head, think of one person you

[31:50] know that should never start a business.

[31:52] >> Okay.

[31:53] >> Why did you think of that person without

[31:56] telling me who they are? because they

[32:00] make a lot of money at their job and

[32:03] they like their job well enough. They're

[32:05] not miserable. Um, and they're in their

[32:09] late 40s and they probably feel like it

[32:11] would be too big of a risk to start

[32:13] something.

[32:13] >> And do you objectively agree that it

[32:15] would be too big of a risk for them?

[32:16] >> I do.

[32:17] >> So, you're looking at that on a

[32:18] risk-reward basis thinking the reward

[32:20] doesn't out outweigh the risk here for

[32:22] you?

[32:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz people come to me like

[32:25] hoping that I'll encourage them to quit

[32:26] their job, right? Like begging me to do

[32:28] that without actually begging me. And I

[32:30] don't want to do that. Like I I've never

[32:33] had to quit a job. Like I I started with

[32:35] entrepreneurship, right? So the thought

[32:37] of being 48 with four kids and quitting

[32:41] my $400,000 a year job to test

[32:44] something. It just sounds crazy to me.

[32:46] >> On the other hand, think of one person

[32:47] you know that isn't an entrepreneur, but

[32:49] definitely should be, but you always

[32:51] think, "Why don't they do it?"

[32:52] >> Yeah. Why did you think of that person?

[32:55] >> Because it's a person that comes to me

[32:58] the most often with ideas and they're

[33:00] really, really good ideas. He's an

[33:02] engineer. Um, and so he sees the world

[33:05] in that way. Engineers make great

[33:07] entrepreneurs. Um,

[33:09] and he has a great work ethic and he's

[33:12] like mid-career but not not so far

[33:14] along. And I know objectively that he's

[33:17] not

[33:19] he's actually quite miserable in his

[33:20] job. And I hate that for him because I

[33:23] see the talent that's there. And I want

[33:26] him like I think he would excel and I

[33:28] want to see that dream come true for

[33:31] him.

[33:31] >> Why isn't he doing it?

[33:33] >> I think it it's insecurity.

[33:36] >> Fear.

[33:37] >> Yeah. fear of

[33:42] probably fear of just letting go of

[33:45] something certain that's provided his

[33:46] family a nice lifestyle and not getting

[33:50] that back again ever. Um

[33:53] I think that insecurities are at the

[33:55] root of our best and our worst selves

[33:58] and it can drive us to be our best or

[34:00] worst selves um depending on how

[34:02] self-aware we are about those

[34:04] insecurities.

[34:06] Is there a little bit of a flaw in his

[34:09] thinking in your perspective? Like why

[34:12] is it you you still even though what

[34:14] he's saying there about you know what

[34:15] you think he believes there about the

[34:17] security for his family is true you

[34:19] still think he should

[34:20] >> which suggests that there's some kind of

[34:22] flaw you see in the way he's thinking

[34:24] about it.

[34:24] >> Yeah.

[34:26] Because he doesn't have to quit his job.

[34:29] um there's enough time in the day to do

[34:32] this on the nights and weekends to to do

[34:34] enough of it to really prove itself out.

[34:37] Often times like

[34:41] whatever our side hustle is, uh it has a

[34:45] very low ceiling if we're only working

[34:46] on it um after hours, right? Let's say

[34:51] we're spending 20 hours a week on a side

[34:53] hustle and it makes us $50,000 a year,

[34:56] but our job pays us $200,000 a year and

[34:58] we spend 40 hours a week on that. One

[35:00] thing that I've noticed, which is kind

[35:02] of contradictory to how I feel about

[35:04] quitting something, um, is when we go

[35:08] from 20 hours a week on our the $50,000

[35:11] a year side hustle to 40 hours a week

[35:12] and we quit the full-time thing, that

[35:15] $50,000 a year goes to 500,000, right?

[35:18] We double the amount of hours, but we 10

[35:20] times the amount of money that comes

[35:22] from it because of the fact that we burn

[35:24] the boats that it has to work. I just I

[35:27] don't want people to burn the boats too

[35:29] soon, right? Like there has to be a

[35:31] pathway. Like let's say our Facebook ads

[35:33] are converting really well. We've tested

[35:35] scaling it and they're profitable and we

[35:38] know what that would look like. But if

[35:39] we scale it, then we're going to have

[35:40] more customer service complaints. We're

[35:42] going to have to do more architecture of

[35:43] the website. But we like we see a path

[35:45] to scaling and it's already profitable

[35:48] and we know that like probably my boss

[35:50] will take me back like we have kind of

[35:52] these uh safety nets. That's like the

[35:55] perfect time to really burn the boats.

[35:57] Not when like we have an idea or we've

[35:59] tested it a little bit but not

[36:00] thoroughly. Um that's too soon in my

[36:02] opinion.

[36:03] >> And but by burn the boats you mean the

[36:04] analogy of I guess some of the the

[36:06] wartime leaders who would pull up on an

[36:08] island that they were invading and burn

[36:09] the boat so that they had no plan B.

[36:11] >> Mhm. Exactly. Yeah. to quit.

[36:14] >> Do you think that really matters? The

[36:15] whole idea of a plan B. Do you think

[36:17] people should have a plan B when they

[36:19] embark on entrepreneurship?

[36:22] Can I contradict myself 100%. All right.

[36:24] So, the rational Chris, the Chris with

[36:27] four kids says absolutely like you got

[36:30] to be a dad, you got to be a husband,

[36:32] you got to provide for your family,

[36:33] right? Um, and again, there's so many

[36:36] tools out there for testing, for

[36:38] scaling, for outsourcing. We could find

[36:40] a business partner to help pick up the

[36:41] slack. We could use our kids, we could

[36:42] use our spouse, whatever. There's so

[36:44] many ways to really vet something out

[36:45] before quitting that we don't have to

[36:47] quit.

[36:48] But

[36:50] the other side of my mouth, there's been

[36:52] um two times in my entrepreneurial

[36:55] career when someone burned the boats for

[36:58] me, right? I pull up to an island and

[37:00] it's I've got my plan B. I'm testing

[37:02] this business. This business is

[37:04] profitable. It's paying the bills. And

[37:06] then someone else in the middle of the

[37:08] night, they snuck out. They burn my

[37:10] boats and I wake up and I'm like, whoa,

[37:12] where's my plan B? I wasn't ready to

[37:14] burn those boats yet. Um, and plan A

[37:18] just freaking thrives, right? And it's

[37:22] not so much because of the fact that I

[37:24] don't have a safety net anymore, but

[37:26] it's because that event put a chip on my

[37:28] shoulder that makes me want to to prove

[37:31] those bad guys wrong. Right. To

[37:33] oversimplify, those guys that burn my

[37:35] boat.

[37:36] >> Toxic motivation.

[37:37] >> Exactly. That's a that's a good way to

[37:38] put it to show them I didn't need those

[37:41] boats. I'm not going back, right? This

[37:43] island is better than where I came from.

[37:45] >> I remember reading about a study on Plan

[37:47] B's where they got a group of students,

[37:49] two groups, and then they told them to

[37:51] do a puzzle to win a treat. And then in

[37:54] one of the groups, they told them that

[37:55] they could get this treat at a vending

[37:57] machine down the hallway if they if they

[37:59] wanted it after. And the group that

[38:01] didn't understand they could get the

[38:03] same reward from a plan B

[38:06] >> worked significantly harder to complete

[38:08] that puzzle.

[38:09] >> So there's something in the human psyche

[38:10] of know when you know that you could

[38:14] >> get the reward in another way. When you

[38:15] have a plan B, we work less hard at the

[38:18] plan A.

[38:20] >> Logically, maybe we should, you know,

[38:23] practical and

[38:24] >> unresponsible

[38:26] remove the plan B from our mind.

[38:28] >> Yeah.

[38:29] >> Yeah. Yeah, I just like I I can't think

[38:32] of any stories from people in my sphere

[38:34] of influence that have tested something,

[38:38] quit the plan A, and then plan B just

[38:41] failed and like they just lost

[38:43] everything. Like surely that's happened,

[38:45] right? That does happen when people like

[38:47] prematurely quit, but in my experience,

[38:50] it just it doesn't happen. Like it it

[38:53] has the opposite effect. It becomes this

[38:55] huge motivating factor. And when they

[38:57] quit, I ask them like, "How do you feel?

[38:59] Are you freaking out?" And it's always

[39:02] always, "I'm so excited right now. Like,

[39:05] I'm going to go all in on this. Like,

[39:07] this has to work." And it does. It just

[39:09] does.

[39:10] >> A lot of people are looking for passive

[39:12] income from side hustles. And I wondered

[39:14] what your your op opinion was on passive

[39:16] income because it's a word that comes up

[39:18] so often in the comment section of this

[39:20] channel, but when we're doing sort of

[39:21] sentiment analysis and what people are

[39:23] what they're interested in. Passive

[39:24] income seems to be a bit of a buzz word.

[39:26] >> Yeah, it's the silver bullet, right?

[39:29] It's like it's the uh it's the financial

[39:32] oic you could say.

[39:33] >> What is passive income? How would how

[39:35] would one define that? I would define it

[39:36] as income that you receive um that you

[39:40] don't have to continually put effort

[39:42] towards like uh buying treasuries,

[39:45] earning 4% on on your money and you

[39:47] don't do anything and you just get paid.

[39:50] And it's it's very hard to find

[39:52] especially early on. Like we have to be

[39:54] willing to create active income, sweaty

[39:56] income, ugly income, like by whatever

[39:59] means necessary. And the more we do

[40:01] that, the longer we do that, the more um

[40:05] realistic true passive income actually

[40:07] is.

[40:09] Sweaty, ugly income.

[40:10] >> Yeah. Give me an example of some sweaty,

[40:13] ugly income that anyone listening right

[40:15] now could could create. What are your

[40:17] favorite examples of non-obvious

[40:19] businesses that people have started that

[40:20] have resulted in passive, sweaty, ugly

[40:22] income?

[40:22] >> Yeah,

[40:24] I mean, most things that I've started

[40:26] have been just that. I had a uh a

[40:30] concierge car buying business. Um

[40:32] >> a concierge car buying business.

[40:34] >> Yeah. What's that?

[40:34] >> So, picture a traditional car

[40:36] dealership, a used car dealership. You

[40:38] got to get your dealer's permit. That uh

[40:40] enables you legally to go to the

[40:42] auctions and buy cars at wholesale, put

[40:44] them on your lot, and sell them. So, I

[40:45] did all the regulatory stuff. I got my

[40:48] my dealer's permit, but then I would go

[40:50] to individuals and they would say, "I

[40:52] want a 2024 Seoia. I want it to be blue,

[40:55] under 30,000 mi." and I would just go to

[40:56] the auction and buy it for them for like

[40:59] $700 fee. So, they get wholesale, they

[41:01] save money, I make money, I don't have

[41:03] to bear the inventory risk and I can buy

[41:05] exactly what they want. Um, that sounds

[41:08] great, right? On paper. People do that

[41:10] business successfully. I didn't invent

[41:11] it. I copied it, right? I hated it. Uh,

[41:15] I was breaking down on the side of the

[41:16] road driving these things back from the

[41:17] auction. I'm not a car guy. I don't care

[41:19] about cars. I don't work on cars. It's

[41:21] not my passion. That was ugly. It was

[41:24] hot in Texas. I was standing out on the

[41:26] black top. I was making money. It was

[41:28] profitable. And I got to the point where

[41:30] I just like quit it. I just shut it

[41:32] down. Moved on to something else. Um

[41:35] that was very active. It was not

[41:38] scalable on the surface. It was ugly. I

[41:39] hated it. And so I pivoted because I had

[41:42] a plan B. I didn't have to do that,

[41:44] right? Um that's one example. Uh if

[41:47] someone likes cars, it's it's a actually

[41:49] a great business. Like I know a

[41:50] gentleman in Alabama that makes a lot of

[41:52] money doing that, right? For me it was

[41:54] it was not great.

[41:55] >> So how important then is passion in this

[41:57] equation? Like how important it is for

[41:59] for you to love the thing to be

[42:00] successful at it in your view? I think

[42:02] you need to fall in love with business

[42:04] with commerce and if you can love

[42:06] entrepreneurship turning $1 into two and

[42:09] that like if you could focus on that

[42:11] being your passion then anything that

[42:13] falls underneath that you should win at,

[42:16] right? But I I like to say

[42:20] follow the profit. pro fit T. Um, until

[42:24] you can afford to follow your passion,

[42:26] right? Because if we're trying to follow

[42:28] our passion from day one, we're probably

[42:30] not ever going to get there because the

[42:32] statistical likelihood that what we love

[42:34] and what makes us money overlaps in the

[42:37] beginning is almost zero. So, ignore

[42:40] passion for a time. Try to build your

[42:43] passion around commerce. Um, and then

[42:46] start anything. And then once you're

[42:49] able to have more passive income, then

[42:51] start things that you're passionate

[42:52] about like in the in the actual industry

[42:54] that you're passionate about.

[42:56] >> Persistence.

[42:58] Persistence is obviously going to create

[43:00] repetitions to like understand the

[43:01] problem to learn more to, you know, so I

[43:04] wonder as it relates to passion and

[43:06] persistence, they seem

[43:08] >> sort of inextricably linked. Something

[43:10] I'm more passionate about, I'm more

[43:11] likely to continue at even when the

[43:13] rewards don't show up. Yeah, like my car

[43:15] my car business, right? I had no passion

[43:17] for cars and I had another business that

[43:19] was doing great. So, so I abandoned

[43:22] that. Um, but people think that like

[43:26] people sometimes look at themselves as

[43:28] lazy or they're not a hard worker. And

[43:30] so they're just they're not confident

[43:32] that they could do this. But there's

[43:34] like everyone is a hard worker. Everyone

[43:37] on this planet has the same DNA that

[43:39] enables them to work hard. But the

[43:42] problem is what they're working on

[43:43] probably gives them no energy, right?

[43:45] They're probably not passionate about

[43:46] it. So, what am I passionate about?

[43:49] Well, we got to we got to test

[43:50] everything. We have to try new things.

[43:51] We have to take that curious question

[43:53] and turn it into a business. Maybe

[43:55] that's fun. Maybe it's not. Right? We

[43:57] need more surface area for finding what

[43:59] our passions actually are. Cuz we might

[44:00] think that like like I love woodworking,

[44:02] right? I don't have to build a business

[44:04] around that cuz I love business, right?

[44:06] So, I can build a business around

[44:07] anything. But if I got super hung up on

[44:09] like I cannot make a profit from this

[44:11] woodworking business um then I would

[44:14] fail at entrepreneurship if I started

[44:16] there, right? Whereas if I approached

[44:17] this from um the angle of all right, I

[44:20] like woodworking. What else do I like?

[44:22] Maybe I like running, maybe I like

[44:24] cooking, maybe I like short form videos,

[44:27] and I just start trying all those new

[44:28] things. Then eventually I'm going to

[44:30] have enough surface area for testing

[44:32] that I'm going to find things where um

[44:35] you've heard of the eeky guy principle.

[44:36] >> Mhm.

[44:37] >> Right. So what you love, what you're

[44:40] good at, what the world needs, and what

[44:43] you can charge for, right? The overlap

[44:46] of that is the sweet spot. That's what's

[44:48] scalable. That's what you can do until

[44:49] you die. But if you get super hung up on

[44:51] that on day one, like I'm just not

[44:53] passionate about that, like you're never

[44:54] going to find it. Like you're going to

[44:55] be in that job forever. My career

[44:57] follows the same same arc which is I

[44:59] tried tons of things and then I built

[45:02] this marketing business and then that

[45:03] became more of a product business and

[45:05] grew and I didn't love it. Like it

[45:07] wasn't my passion to do um to help like

[45:10] Coca-Cola sell more cans of Coke or like

[45:12] you know Uber sell more Ubers

[45:14] necessarily. That wasn't like my passion

[45:15] in life. However, it taught me a bunch

[45:17] of skills

[45:18] >> which then in when I quit that business

[45:20] and I spent some time in psychedelics,

[45:22] DJing, building software, web 3, you

[45:24] name it. Um I came out on the other side

[45:26] and could ask myself that guy question

[45:28] which is of all the things that I have

[45:29] tried what is the thing that I would do

[45:31] like really irrespective of money. Now I

[45:33] had that luxury to do that and actually

[45:35] in 2020 the answer was this.

[45:37] >> Mhm.

[45:38] >> Like this was the answer. This answer

[45:39] was I I literally moved to London from

[45:41] New York and found a place without

[45:43] viewing it properly that looked like

[45:46] this because I thought this would be a

[45:47] good podcast set and moved into that

[45:49] place called Jack and then we started

[45:51] about five five years ago um doing doing

[45:54] this weekly

[45:55] >> and it's become a business off the back

[45:57] of it.

[45:58] >> But I didn't have that luxury at the

[46:00] start. If I tried that from day one, I

[46:01] wouldn't have had a the skills to know

[46:03] how to scale an audience. Mhm.

[46:04] >> I wouldn't have had the flexibility to

[46:07] buy all these cameras which cost like 50

[46:09] grand or whatever at the start. Um so

[46:12] and I do think some people sometimes get

[46:13] that inverted.

[46:14] >> Yeah. And you you're not distracted

[46:16] anymore, right? You're not looking for

[46:17] the next DJ thing or like you found it.

[46:19] [clears throat] You're here right now.

[46:21] You're focused on scaling. It's like

[46:22] people get so hung up on focus or lack

[46:25] thereof and they just beat themselves up

[46:27] over it. But in my experience, like a

[46:29] lack of focus is a signal that there's

[46:32] something else out there, right? right?

[46:34] Then maybe we shouldn't be focusing on

[46:35] that thing cuz you've probably worked on

[46:37] things that had perfect product market

[46:39] fit and were just crushing and you

[46:42] weren't thinking about starting a DJing

[46:43] business at that point,

[46:44] >> right? You were all in on this one

[46:46] thing.

[46:47] >> But in the times when you were working

[46:48] on something, you're like, "Maybe I'll

[46:49] try this. Maybe I'll try this." And you

[46:50] beat yourself up. You're like, "Oh, and

[46:52] focus, focus, focus." Like, "Let's

[46:53] actually pay attention to those signals.

[46:56] Why am I distracted from this thing?" So

[46:58] that's I don't know if that's just me

[47:00] coping with my own ADHD or if that's

[47:03] actually a true principle, but I I try

[47:05] to lend some credence to those signals

[47:07] of distraction that I get on a regular

[47:09] basis.

[47:10] >> Yeah, I have a a Sunday shelf,

[47:12] >> which is just a digital board on my

[47:15] Monday board where when I have ideas

[47:18] that like captivate me at 11:00 p.m. at

[47:20] night one night, instead of trying to

[47:21] act on them immediately, cuz I think I'm

[47:23] in some respects like you, I put it on

[47:24] the Sunday shelf.

[47:25] >> Mhm. And um I wait and see.

[47:28] >> Yeah.

[47:28] >> I wait and see how much it pulls at me

[47:30] to come off the shelf.

[47:32] >> And then sometimes it comes off the

[47:33] shelf. I get a little bit of the way

[47:34] down. I discover that actually there's

[47:36] something I didn't realize. And then I

[47:37] quit. But then there's this, you know,

[47:38] when you think about the like the

[47:40] excitement arc of a new idea. You have

[47:42] the like initial surge of excitement

[47:44] like this is the best thing ever. I'm

[47:45] going to become a billionaire. Why has

[47:46] no one ever thought of this before? And

[47:48] then you kind of get into it and you get

[47:49] into that sort of valley of oh this

[47:51] is a terrible idea. I'm an idiot. Yep.

[47:54] >> If I can come out of that valley, if if

[47:56] something pulls me up out of that

[47:57] valley, then I think it's worth

[47:58] pursuing.

[47:59] >> Yeah, that's a good way of looking at

[48:00] it. The the valley of despair or

[48:02] something that's what they call it.

[48:03] >> Yeah.

[48:04] >> Yeah.

[48:05] >> Do you follow a similar sort of path

[48:07] with idea your ideas? It's funny cuz I

[48:10] my kind of framework is

[48:14] if I have an idea, am I thinking about

[48:16] it still two weeks later? For whatever

[48:19] reason, that's just my timeline. Two

[48:20] weeks. I had an idea yesterday and I was

[48:23] at the airport. I was excited about it

[48:25] and I was doing research. I like forgot

[48:27] about it, right? Who cares, you know?

[48:30] But I have ideas where I just cannot get

[48:32] it out of my head and I'll see something

[48:33] out there in the world that adds to the

[48:35] idea and I tell my friend about it and I

[48:37] I send these manic voicemails or these

[48:40] manic voice notes to my friends about it

[48:42] and I'm still thinking about it 2 weeks

[48:44] later. That's my signal that there's

[48:46] actually something here. Um,

[48:49] >> you used the word validating earlier on

[48:51] when you're talking about these ideas

[48:53] and I I think this is something that

[48:56] could really really help a lot of people

[48:57] who have a lot of ideas is this idea of

[48:59] trying to validate your ideas as fast as

[49:00] possible.

[49:01] >> Mhm.

[49:01] >> How might one validate an idea and can

[49:03] you give me an example of an idea that

[49:04] you have validated? What does validation

[49:06] mean?

[49:07] >> Mhm. [clears throat]

[49:08] Yeah. So, I like to see people get joy

[49:12] from my product or service, right? Not

[49:15] just like, well, it's good. Like let's

[49:16] say I'm selling a food product. It

[49:18] tastes good. It's good. [clears throat]

[49:20] Okay, people might buy this, but I'm not

[49:23] going to have product market fit. I'm

[49:24] going to be pushing a boulder up the

[49:25] hill, right? But if people are like, "Oh

[49:28] my gosh, this is the best thing I've

[49:30] ever had. Where did you make this? How

[49:32] did you make this?" It lights up in

[49:33] their face. That's an example of a

[49:36] validation in my case, right? Same

[49:39] industry, food product, completely

[49:42] different reactions, right? So, one

[49:45] specific example is um my wife has a

[49:49] cookie bar business, right? Square

[49:52] cookies, and they're amazing. And we're

[49:55] not trying to scale it. We don't want to

[49:56] scale it. It's a way to teach our kids

[49:57] entrepreneurship, and we love it. But

[49:59] the best way to validate this was going

[50:02] to our local farmers market and just

[50:05] posting up and just giving people

[50:07] samples and just watching them, right?

[50:09] What do they say versus how do they

[50:11] react? And is it the same?

[50:13] >> What do you mean by that?

[50:14] >> Well, sometimes we try to use the

[50:16] internet in places where it's it's not

[50:18] needful, right? She sold these online,

[50:21] right? She shipped them to friends and

[50:22] family across the country. Like, they're

[50:23] great. We love them. Okay. I didn't see

[50:25] you eat it. I don't know how you

[50:26] actually love it. Are you saying that

[50:28] because you're my mom, right? Or you're

[50:30] my friend. But when you solicit feedback

[50:33] on your product or service in person,

[50:35] even if it's like an internet tool or an

[50:37] app, in person makes all the difference.

[50:39] You want to take note of what they say

[50:41] and take note of their body language and

[50:44] how they react when they experience your

[50:46] product or service, right? And if all

[50:49] three of those things overlap, then

[50:51] either they're a psychopath and they're

[50:54] just lying for no good reason or you

[50:56] have something really special on your

[50:57] hands. Uh, and so that's what we did

[50:59] with her cookie bar business. And um,

[51:01] and they loved it. And you can do that

[51:03] with any business. It doesn't have to be

[51:04] food.

[51:05] >> And what does validation mean? is it's

[51:07] checking if the market gives a

[51:08] about the thing you're making as fast as

[51:10] you can. Yeah. Yeah. Um I like to kind

[51:14] of picture a you know a boulder up a

[51:17] hill, right? And most people in their

[51:20] businesses, even businesses that are

[51:21] working, there are two steps forward,

[51:23] one step back. Two steps forward, one

[51:25] step back. And that's okay. Like that's

[51:27] not a bad thing. But in my experience,

[51:30] 5% of the time I'll have a business

[51:32] where the boulder is chasing me. Like

[51:34] I'm trying to not die because this

[51:36] boulder's chasing me down a hill. And

[51:38] that boulder in this case represents

[51:39] customers demand, right? Like I can't

[51:42] sleep because I'm fulfilling orders. I'm

[51:44] answering emails like I'm not getting

[51:46] distracted by the next shiny object.

[51:49] That is validation. That's product

[51:51] market fit in my experience. You don't

[51:53] have to have that to launch. I don't

[51:55] want people to misunderstand. Um but if

[51:57] you have that, like you have something

[51:59] very special and you need to go all in

[52:00] on that thing. There was a book

[52:02] published uh several years ago called

[52:05] the lean startup which talks about this

[52:07] idea of just like testing an MVP as

[52:09] quick quick quickly as you possibly can.

[52:11] >> Can you explain that to the audience who

[52:13] probably have ideas but in their head

[52:14] are thinking I've got to quit my job.

[52:16] I'm going to have to raise money. I'm

[52:18] going to have to spend two to three

[52:19] years building something to figure out

[52:20] if this is a good idea or not. What is

[52:22] the alternative approach that you adopt

[52:24] when you're trying to stress test an

[52:25] idea quickly?

[52:26] >> Yeah. So, if I had to pick one tool, I

[52:29] mean, it's one that one in four humans

[52:31] use every day, and it's Facebook, right?

[52:34] You've got Facebook groups, you got

[52:36] WhatsApp, um, Instagram, Facebook

[52:39] Marketplace, Facebook pages, uh,

[52:42] Facebook ads, right? Let's just say

[52:44] there's six different meta products,

[52:45] Facebook products. That's everything you

[52:47] need right there, right? Why why don't

[52:49] you give me an example of just a random

[52:51] business and I'll I'll tell you or the

[52:54] the audience how they could validate

[52:56] that with a Facebook product.

[52:58] >> Okay. Um

[53:01] I'm thinking of starting a

[53:07] creatine brand for women that has makes

[53:12] creatine taste good. Okay. All right.

[53:16] Are we talking powder gummy? What form

[53:18] factor?

[53:18] >> I don't know.

[53:19] >> Okay. Well, let's let's try both. Okay.

[53:22] So, I'm going to do something that seems

[53:24] very non-obvious and probably won't

[53:25] work, but it's the lowest amount of

[53:27] friction. I'm going to take a

[53:28] description for that and I'm going to

[53:30] use Nano Banana, Chad GBT, any of the AI

[53:33] image generators to come up with what

[53:35] the product could look like, right? In

[53:37] both a gummy form and a powder form.

[53:39] Okay. Then I'm going to go to Facebook

[53:41] Marketplace. You You're just going to

[53:42] post a photo.

[53:43] >> Yeah. I'm just going to say like women's

[53:45] creatine brand actually tastes good.

[53:47] tastes good, right? Like, did you know

[53:48] that creatine and improves cognitive

[53:50] function or whatever? Just your standard

[53:52] pitch. I could even use AI to generate

[53:53] it. It doesn't really matter at this

[53:55] point and I'm gonna post it to Facebook

[53:57] marketplace simply because that's the

[53:59] lowest amount of friction to get some

[54:01] level of validation or not, right?

[54:03] Because in my experience, focus is

[54:06] overrated and momentum is underrated,

[54:09] right? And so you could have told me any

[54:12] idea and my first step that I tell you

[54:14] to do is going to be something very very

[54:16] low friction because I want you to get

[54:19] something back from the world, right?

[54:21] Cuz the most likely way to sell that

[54:23] product is with meta ads, right? But

[54:24] there's a lot of friction there. Like

[54:26] it's it's hard to use. So you're going

[54:28] to be like, "Okay, you're going to go

[54:29] choose met ads and you're going to burn

[54:32] out and you're going to have be on to

[54:33] something else by tomorrow." But that

[54:34] might be an amazing idea, right? So, I'm

[54:36] going to tell you to go to Facebook

[54:37] Marketplace, even though people don't

[54:39] sell creatine on Facebook Marketplace.

[54:41] And then we're going to see, you know,

[54:43] Facebook gives us like three stats when

[54:45] you post something to Facebook

[54:46] Marketplace clicks and then how many

[54:49] people that reach out and then how many

[54:50] views. Okay, so I'm going to post one

[54:53] Facebook Marketplace ad for the gummies.

[54:57] Different picture. It'll look like

[54:58] gummies. Um, basically same headline,

[55:00] same benefit, same description. post to

[55:03] Facebook in the same local market with

[55:05] the same radius. Don't want to change

[55:06] any variables. And then I'm going to

[55:08] open a Google sheet and I'm going to say

[55:10] how many views, how many clicks, how

[55:13] many messages for that ad. Then I'm

[55:15] going to do the same thing. Take the

[55:16] same features, the same benefits,

[55:18] different picture cuz this one's powder.

[55:20] Post it in the same market with the same

[55:21] radius to Facebook Marketplace and have

[55:23] a new column um views, reachouts, and um

[55:28] clicks, right? And then I'm going to

[55:30] watch and I'm going to see what's

[55:32] getting more clicks and I'm going to

[55:33] know within two hours where there's more

[55:36] demand. Now, does that little sample

[55:38] size indicate like what form factor I

[55:41] should go all in on? Not necessarily,

[55:43] but it's something. It's a relevant data

[55:44] point, right? There's not very likely to

[55:46] be a large amount of people searching

[55:48] for creatine gummies on Facebook

[55:49] Marketplace, but it doesn't matter

[55:51] because there's two billion people using

[55:52] it, right? So, we're just trying to

[55:54] capture some of that traffic. So, I'm

[55:57] going to do that with two ads. And then

[55:59] after a day or two, I'm going to boost

[56:01] those two ads, put $10 behind each of

[56:04] them to see how my results differ. Does

[56:07] it make any difference? Do I get a lot

[56:08] more clicks, a lot more views, or is it

[56:10] just wasted? And then I'm going to um

[56:13] I'm going to probably post like 10 more

[56:15] ads of like different photos, different

[56:17] headings, different descriptions,

[56:19] different price points, and then put all

[56:21] those in a Google sheet and track it.

[56:23] All right. Now, I have a lot of data.

[56:25] Now, concurrently, so while I'm doing

[56:28] all these things, I'm going to go to

[56:29] Facebook groups and I'm going to join

[56:32] Facebook groups like moms who work out,

[56:34] moms who love creatine, moms who love

[56:36] rucking, ultrarunner moms, like healthy

[56:39] moms, whatever. I'm going to join all

[56:41] these groups and just start doing

[56:42] searches for creatine, gummies, powders,

[56:45] price points, vendors, websites, and

[56:48] just start like pulling pieces of data

[56:51] out of out of the atmosphere, right? and

[56:53] I'm gonna put that in my spreadsheet and

[56:55] I want to wait till the Facebook

[56:56] marketplace tests are done. I want to do

[56:57] that at the same time. Then I'm going to

[56:59] start learning Facebook ads because

[57:01] everything I've told you to do so far

[57:03] takes like 2 hours. Let's say we have an

[57:04] afternoon to dedicate to this, right?

[57:06] Then I'm going to learn Facebook ads and

[57:08] I'm going to watch a YouTube video

[57:09] about, you know, how to get Facebook ads

[57:11] up in 10 minutes. How important is it to

[57:13] understand Facebook ads and how long

[57:15] would it take me to get a sufficient

[57:16] understanding of Facebook ads? you could

[57:19] be proficient in a couple days if if you

[57:23] had like one thing to sell and you just

[57:25] wanted to go all in on that thing. Um,

[57:27] and you actually learned by launching

[57:29] ads and not just learning, not just

[57:31] endlessly watching YouTube videos, you

[57:33] could be fairly proficient uh within a

[57:35] couple days easily. Do you think that's

[57:37] the skill everybody should have?

[57:39] >> Absolutely. I mean, Facebook ads are

[57:42] like the infinite money glitch. It's

[57:43] just like a a magic money machine. It's

[57:46] the reason they're a trillion dollar

[57:47] company. Um, it's like a cheat code.

[57:50] Yeah. It's a We should know Facebook ads

[57:52] like we know how to write emails. Like

[57:54] we should know Facebook ads like we know

[57:56] how to build websites or to do anything.

[57:58] It should be foundational.

[58:01] H

[58:02] I wonder how many people actually have

[58:04] that skill. Very few. That's why there

[58:06] are so many ad agencies charging a lot

[58:08] of money.

[58:10] >> And then so you've got the data back

[58:11] into your spreadsheet on this creatine

[58:14] situation. How do you then make a

[58:15] decision whether this is something worth

[58:16] pursuing?

[58:17] >> Yeah. Then I would go find like a a

[58:20] c-acker that could

[58:22] >> it's a company that will take my idea

[58:24] and put it into a physical form, right?

[58:27] Um I'd find like a supplement company

[58:29] that could actually make this and I

[58:31] would tell it roughly like what I'm

[58:33] thinking and then ask for samples and

[58:35] then I would use those samples to go get

[58:37] feedback from people in person, right?

[58:40] But I wouldn't get those samples until I

[58:41] got feedback from all these Facebook

[58:43] tests telling me what form factor, what

[58:44] price point, what color, what flavor,

[58:47] um, etc. And then I would go to a

[58:49] farmers market and actually have people

[58:51] try it. I've had so many founders speak

[58:53] to me and say, "Why didn't this

[58:55] particular ad that I ran on this

[58:56] platform work for me?" Maybe the copy

[58:58] wasn't good, the creative wasn't strong,

[59:00] but usually the problem is they're not

[59:01] having the right conversation because

[59:03] that ad never reached the right person.

[59:05] And if you're in B2B marketing, that is

[59:07] much of the game. And this is where

[59:09] LinkedIn ads solves that problem for

[59:11] you. Their targeting is ridiculously

[59:13] specific. You can target by job title,

[59:15] seniority, company size, industry, and

[59:18] even someone's skill set. And their

[59:20] network includes over a billion

[59:22] professionals, about 130 million of them

[59:25] are decision makers. So when you use

[59:26] LinkedIn ads, you're putting your brand

[59:28] in front of the right people. And

[59:30] LinkedIn ads also drive the highest B2B

[59:32] return on ad spend across all ad

[59:34] networks in my experience. If you want

[59:36] to give them a try, head over to

[59:38] linkedin.com/diary.

[59:40] And when you spend $250 on your first

[59:43] LinkedIn ads campaign, you'll get an

[59:45] extra $250 credit from me for the next

[59:48] one. That's linkedin.com/diary.

[59:51] Terms and conditions apply.

[59:54] >> I've heard you say that there's various

[59:55] types of entrepreneurs. There's the sort

[59:57] of zero to one entrepreneur who's good

[59:59] at starting things. There's the

[01:00:00] maintainer. And then there's the

[01:00:01] finisher.

[01:00:02] >> Which one are you?

[01:00:03] >> I'm a starter. Yeah. Through and

[01:00:05] through. I

[01:00:08] if I stay in a business too long, it all

[01:00:11] falls apart, right? Just objectively.

[01:00:14] So, I need to hand off the reigns at a

[01:00:16] very specific point or I need to have a

[01:00:18] partner from the outset that knows me,

[01:00:21] my strengths and my weaknesses um that

[01:00:24] just takes over at a certain point. So,

[01:00:26] I like to say there are starters,

[01:00:28] maintainers, and finishers. A starter

[01:00:31] could be called like a visionary and not

[01:00:33] as like a backhanded compliment way, but

[01:00:35] someone an idea guy, right? Not just a

[01:00:38] business idea guy, but like a marketing

[01:00:39] idea guy. Uh, let's change the subject

[01:00:41] line to this idea guy. Like a an idea

[01:00:44] machine, right? That's a visionary. And

[01:00:47] then you have the maintainer, which

[01:00:49] would be an operator. That's a guy that

[01:00:51] just wakes up every day and loves

[01:00:53] tweaking little things, making small

[01:00:55] improvements. uh process oriented,

[01:00:58] someone that loves growing something and

[01:01:00] just fixing little problems all day,

[01:01:02] right? And then you have a finisher,

[01:01:04] which is like a deal guy, right? That's

[01:01:07] the guy that's a super connector. Uh he

[01:01:09] likes to, oh, you need to talk to Barry.

[01:01:11] And then he calls him, he connects them,

[01:01:12] and like he just gets a lot of energy

[01:01:14] from connecting deals, coming up with

[01:01:16] creative deals for an exit, for a sale,

[01:01:19] putting people together, hiring the

[01:01:21] right people, um seeing something to its

[01:01:24] completion. Um, but I'm definitely in

[01:01:26] the first camp.

[01:01:27] >> Is it possible to be all three?

[01:01:29] >> Yeah. When you're all three, you're Mark

[01:01:31] Zuckerberg. I mean, truly, like you

[01:01:34] start something from scratch and you see

[01:01:35] it to a trillion dollars. Um, there's

[01:01:37] been like I think there have been three

[01:01:39] people on the planet that have brought

[01:01:41] something from zero to a trillion.

[01:01:43] Jensen Wang, Nvidia, um, Elon Musk, and

[01:01:48] Mark Zuckerberg. I think like even Bill

[01:01:50] Gates, even Steve Jobs, I might be

[01:01:53] wrong. Yeah. But even Steve Jobs got out

[01:01:54] long before they hit a trillion market

[01:01:56] cap.

[01:01:56] >> But a billion, a lot of [clears throat]

[01:01:57] people get zero to a billion.

[01:01:59] >> That's not nothing. Also very

[01:02:02] impressive. But when you get all three,

[01:02:04] that's what you get.

[01:02:05] >> One of the things that I find really

[01:02:07] interesting about your story is you

[01:02:08] you've started what is it 75 80

[01:02:10] businesses.

[01:02:10] >> Mhm. When I speak to people like Kevin

[01:02:14] Olirri who have worked with some of the

[01:02:15] greatest entrepreneurs to ever live like

[01:02:17] Steve Jobs and he's [clears throat] very

[01:02:19] familiar with Elon Musk, they talk to me

[01:02:22] about focus.

[01:02:23] >> Mhm.

[01:02:24] >> And he says to me that the great thing

[01:02:26] about Steve Jobs is he was 80% signal

[01:02:29] and 20% noise. I.e. 80% of his time he

[01:02:32] was focused on the most important thing

[01:02:34] and he was brutal about not entertaining

[01:02:36] anything else. M

[01:02:37] >> Johnny Ives has famously said that the

[01:02:39] one thing Steve Jobs was most known for

[01:02:41] is his remarkable ability to focus. He

[01:02:43] would literally ask you what have you

[01:02:44] said no to in order to focus on the most

[01:02:47] important thing.

[01:02:48] >> Uh I think about Mark Zuckerberg and his

[01:02:50] unbelievable ability to focus. I

[01:02:52] remember uh several people at Meta but

[01:02:54] also I think it's a public story telling

[01:02:55] me that when he realized he was late to

[01:02:57] mobile he refused to take any meetings

[01:02:59] about anything other than mobile like

[01:03:01] extreme levels of focus.

[01:03:03] >> And then Kevin Olirri from Shark Tank

[01:03:05] said the same to me about Elon Musk. He

[01:03:06] says Elon Musk is the only person that I

[01:03:07] think operates close to 100% signal

[01:03:09] which is he and I interviewed Walter

[01:03:11] Isaac and his biographer and he said

[01:03:12] Elon will sit in a meeting and if people

[01:03:15] aren't talking about something that is

[01:03:16] the most important thing he'll

[01:03:18] completely zone out and then the minute

[01:03:19] he hears something that he considers to

[01:03:21] be the most important thing it's like he

[01:03:22] snaps into reality and he takes control

[01:03:24] and he's deep into the detail and I it

[01:03:27] sits in contradiction to a lot of the

[01:03:28] the narrative of like lots of side

[01:03:31] hustles, lots of businesses, do as many

[01:03:33] things as you can. How do you but you've

[01:03:35] both kind of you know you've managed to

[01:03:37] create a life for yourself where you're

[01:03:38] you're a millionaire and you're free in

[01:03:40] that regard

[01:03:41] >> but when I look at the biggest companies

[01:03:43] in the world there's this like there

[01:03:45] appears to be obsessive focus.

[01:03:46] >> Yeah.

[01:03:48] >> I love that question. I I think that all

[01:03:51] else equal the guy who focuses more is

[01:03:54] more likely to be a billionaire. But

[01:03:57] back to momentum, right? The person that

[01:04:00] keeps and has and mo maintains momentum

[01:04:02] and has gets energy from what they do,

[01:04:05] they're more likely to be a millionaire

[01:04:06] by the average than the average person,

[01:04:08] right? I I genuinely have no desire to

[01:04:11] be a billionaire. Genuinely, if I get

[01:04:14] there, cool. But I don't want to leave

[01:04:16] my kids tens of millions of dollars

[01:04:17] anyway. I know where I get most of my

[01:04:20] energy from. I have a lot of surface

[01:04:22] area for this. I've tried the focus.

[01:04:23] I've tried having a board. I don't want

[01:04:26] any of that. Genuinely, I don't. Right.

[01:04:29] So, if my life with hyperfocused Chris

[01:04:32] looks like billion-dollar exits, uh,

[01:04:35] reporting to a board, uh, being chairman

[01:04:38] of the board, being CEO, um, sitting in

[01:04:40] meetings all day, that's miserable

[01:04:42] Chris, right? And if I'm not going to,

[01:04:44] if I don't want to leave a ton of money

[01:04:45] to my kids anyway, then why am I making

[01:04:48] Chris miserable so my fourth great

[01:04:51] grandkids can be rich instead of just my

[01:04:53] second great grandkids? Like that's

[01:04:55] that's genuinely how I look at it. I'm

[01:04:57] one of my superpowers is my my long-term

[01:04:59] perspective, right? I think of things on

[01:05:01] an eternal scale. And if I have to have

[01:05:03] a miserable life so my kids in year 2300

[01:05:08] can still be wealthy, forget that. Like

[01:05:11] I don't I don't I don't want them to

[01:05:13] have all that money anyway, you know? So

[01:05:14] I want to live an awesome life where I'm

[01:05:16] a good and present father. And to me

[01:05:18] that looks like focusing less, not more.

[01:05:21] What if you focused for the next 10

[01:05:23] years? You made it to a billion dollars

[01:05:25] on one thing

[01:05:26] >> and then because you've done that you

[01:05:28] can take even more sort of experimental

[01:05:32] bets

[01:05:33] >> with higher risk and more enjoyment and

[01:05:35] more sort of pleasure ccentric bets over

[01:05:36] the next 40 50 60 years of the rest of

[01:05:39] your life.

[01:05:40] >> Yeah, I just don't think that that juice

[01:05:42] would be worth the squeeze. I think that

[01:05:44] those bigger bets that I take will just

[01:05:46] amount to more meetings and more travel

[01:05:50] and more time away from my kids. And I

[01:05:54] don't like it might sound controversial

[01:05:56] like I'm I'm not trying to change the

[01:05:57] world. Like I want to help people start

[01:06:00] businesses and I can do that with my

[01:06:01] iPhone. Uh and that will change the

[01:06:03] world, right? But I'm not trying to

[01:06:04] solve world hunger. I think that's

[01:06:06] someone else's problem to solve. And so

[01:06:08] I I just want to be a good dad and work

[01:06:09] on really cool things. And it's been a

[01:06:12] it's been a grind to get here, right?

[01:06:14] Like I've had more years with zero

[01:06:17] income than I've had up years, right?

[01:06:20] But my up years have more than

[01:06:22] compensated for my down years. So what

[01:06:24] you're looking at today is the end

[01:06:26] result of 17 years of a lot of testing.

[01:06:29] Like a very patient wife that was

[01:06:31] unquestioning and unwavering and

[01:06:34] extremely loyal, which I could not have

[01:06:36] done it without. Um, and so there were a

[01:06:38] lot of periods in my life where I beat

[01:06:40] myself up over that lack of focus. I

[01:06:42] went and got my MBA because of my lack

[01:06:44] of focus. I finished my undergrad

[01:06:45] because of my lack of focus. Like how

[01:06:47] getting a full-time job has never really

[01:06:49] been off the table until the last five

[01:06:51] or so years. So I've I've never been

[01:06:53] unwilling to get a job or to focus. U

[01:06:56] and I probably did it the hard way,

[01:06:57] honestly. Um, but I'm to the point now

[01:07:00] where I don't feel the need to focus all

[01:07:03] on one thing. Did you ever feel guilty

[01:07:06] because of the situation you put your

[01:07:08] family or your partner in?

[01:07:10] >> Yeah.

[01:07:12] More than once. Yeah. More than many

[01:07:14] times.

[01:07:17] Give me an example. I spent

[01:07:21] I spent 18 months working on a project

[01:07:24] um

[01:07:26] that had no cash flow along the way with

[01:07:29] the hope of a big payout. Um, and we

[01:07:32] were making no income, right? And I was

[01:07:35] focused on this one thing. And that is

[01:07:36] kind of the downside of focus is if you

[01:07:38] focus on the wrong thing, it can really

[01:07:40] come back to bite you, right? But to me,

[01:07:42] this was objectively the right thing. It

[01:07:43] was showing all the signals it was

[01:07:44] growing. Um, we we had like a few rental

[01:07:48] homes, we had some assets, and I was

[01:07:50] selling those things so my family could

[01:07:53] maintain their quality of life, right?

[01:07:55] So I felt guilty but I was also

[01:07:57] insulating them from feeling the the

[01:08:01] pinch that I was feeling in the office,

[01:08:02] right? And then at the end of that

[01:08:04] experiment it all went to zero. I was

[01:08:07] out money, I was out time, I was out

[01:08:10] everything. And I felt I felt very

[01:08:12] guilty. That was one one example. Um

[01:08:16] but thankfully like we we didn't have to

[01:08:18] sell our house. We didn't have to do

[01:08:19] anything drastic. And what that looked

[01:08:21] like at home was dad was quiet more

[01:08:23] often than not. Dad was grumpy more

[01:08:25] often than not, but dad wasn't really

[01:08:28] talking freely and openly about the

[01:08:30] things he was going through because he

[01:08:32] was trying to, you know, put on a brave

[01:08:34] face and insulate um the family from

[01:08:36] that. Even when my wife was begging to

[01:08:38] know more to get more out of me, I just

[01:08:41] if I talk about stressors, then it

[01:08:42] becomes more stressful to me often

[01:08:44] times. So, I just keep it in.

[01:08:46] >> I find the same. I think my partner

[01:08:49] understands this of me and I tried to

[01:08:50] explain to her that I don't like talking

[01:08:52] about the stress because

[01:08:53] >> in this environment you're it's actually

[01:08:55] d-stressing me from not having to

[01:08:56] explain and conversate about it.

[01:08:58] >> Mhm.

[01:08:59] >> So, which is a bit of a paradox because

[01:09:01] then they don't really understand.

[01:09:02] >> Yeah.

[01:09:03] >> And if they don't understand, they might

[01:09:05] misunderstand. Misunderstandments might

[01:09:07] lead to arguments and the arguments

[01:09:08] create stress and then you're going to

[01:09:10] have to tell them in some sort of like

[01:09:12] argument what's going on.

[01:09:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. I've lived that for sure. I

[01:09:16] don't know how to navigate that, but but

[01:09:18] it's definitely true that me going

[01:09:20] through something in work and then

[01:09:21] having to come home and like go through

[01:09:23] it for another hour to someone else and

[01:09:25] stress them out potentially.

[01:09:27] >> Yeah.

[01:09:28] >> Doesn't feel like the right approach.

[01:09:29] >> No, but I don't know what the right

[01:09:31] approach is because they they have a

[01:09:32] right to know about it as well, right?

[01:09:34] >> I think we just need an outlet whether

[01:09:36] it's a friend that kind of understands

[01:09:38] or someone else that,

[01:09:39] >> you know, is in our space that we can

[01:09:42] just talk to about the situation. I

[01:09:43] think having no outlet is also bad.

[01:09:45] >> Yeah. And I'm I'm guilty of that. I I

[01:09:48] find a lot of joy in my work and so I I

[01:09:51] don't look at it as work often, but it's

[01:09:53] still work, right? Like it's still

[01:09:55] taxing. Um so I need to be better about

[01:09:58] having an outlet.

[01:10:00] >> Have you developed a new relationship

[01:10:01] with rejection and failure because, you

[01:10:04] know, starting 80 odd businesses, you

[01:10:06] must have dealt with a lot of failure.

[01:10:08] >> Mhm.

[01:10:08] >> And and how does that feed into

[01:10:10] everything we're talking about today?

[01:10:12] Oh man, [sighs] I would I don't know

[01:10:14] where I'd be without rejection and

[01:10:16] failure. Um I'm not good at sales. So if

[01:10:19] anyone's watching this and like I can't

[01:10:21] start a business, business is all sales.

[01:10:22] Like you don't have to be good at sales.

[01:10:24] I'm not good at sales. I I can't think

[01:10:26] of a business that where I had to rely

[01:10:28] on like early customers coming from

[01:10:30] friends and family cuz I cared a lot

[01:10:32] about what people thought. I didn't want

[01:10:34] to post my side hustle number 37 to

[01:10:36] Facebook cuz I just thought my friends

[01:10:38] would roll their eyes. So I created this

[01:10:40] stupid constraint for me where like I

[01:10:42] had to launch things without the help of

[01:10:43] my ever willing friends and family

[01:10:45] because I was too prideful, right? So I

[01:10:47] I advise against that first of all.

[01:10:49] Second [snorts] of all, um I served a

[01:10:52] mission for my church. I went to Eastern

[01:10:54] Europe for two years and I knocked doors

[01:10:57] in Hungarian for two years straight. I

[01:11:00] approached people on the street in

[01:11:02] freezing weather wearing a big Russian

[01:11:05] hat. Like I got rejected tens of

[01:11:09] thousands of times over the course of

[01:11:11] two years being an introvert, staying an

[01:11:13] introvert, still an introvert, still bad

[01:11:15] at sales, still hating sales today at

[01:11:16] age 38, right? But that like changed me

[01:11:20] as a man, as a person, right? That

[01:11:23] rewired my brain to just realize that

[01:11:26] every no is closer to a yes. If my

[01:11:29] conversion rate is 0.1%, I got to talk

[01:11:31] to a thousand people and I will surely

[01:11:34] get a conversion. If I talk to a

[01:11:35] thousand and I don't get a conversion,

[01:11:36] then I'm going to get two conversions by

[01:11:38] the time I get to 2,000, statistically

[01:11:40] speaking. So, I just need to keep

[01:11:41] getting rejected. Um, and that changed

[01:11:44] everything for me. I think it's super

[01:11:47] underrated to give kids a job in like

[01:11:49] cold sales.

[01:11:50] >> Mhm. It's what I did when I was 16 till

[01:11:53] 19. Sounds like it's what you did

[01:11:55] >> as a young man. Are your kids going to

[01:11:58] do that? Yeah, hopefully. And two of my

[01:12:01] kids are introverts, two are

[01:12:02] extroverted, but uh they will they are

[01:12:05] selling like they already have

[01:12:06] businesses, little side hustles here and

[01:12:08] there. Um but I am encouraging them to

[01:12:10] go on missions and to do selling because

[01:12:12] it's it's the fastest way to learn. Like

[01:12:14] it's the fastest way to test. If I talk

[01:12:16] to a thousand people, then I can have a

[01:12:18] thousand different approaches and if my

[01:12:20] conversion rate is 0.1%. Um, I'm going

[01:12:23] to get that to 5% over time because I'm

[01:12:25] able to test and iterate and and pivot

[01:12:28] based on all that feedback I get.

[01:12:30] >> What have you learned about team

[01:12:31] building and business partners through

[01:12:33] this process? What advice would you give

[01:12:35] to someone who's sat there alone

[01:12:37] listening to this right now? Do they

[01:12:38] need a business partner? If they do,

[01:12:40] who, how, what? Oh [sighs] man. Um,

[01:12:45] usually people don't need a business

[01:12:47] partner. Um, if you look at the stats on

[01:12:50] like business failure rates with

[01:12:54] companies that have co-founders, it's

[01:12:56] significantly higher than companies that

[01:12:57] have solo founders. We see the

[01:13:00] survivorship bias examples, right? The

[01:13:02] the Apples and the a lot of companies we

[01:13:05] can look at that had two co-founders

[01:13:06] that that won, but nobody talks about or

[01:13:09] writes about the 90 60 80% of companies

[01:13:13] that fail with co-founders. Think about

[01:13:15] it this way. When we get married, we'll

[01:13:17] spend years talking about our potential

[01:13:20] plans, like big goals, like where do we

[01:13:22] want to live? How many kids do we have?

[01:13:24] My wife and I wanted seven kids when we

[01:13:25] got married. We settled on four, right?

[01:13:27] It changed over time. It took years to

[01:13:29] change. We realized kids are actually

[01:13:30] freaking hard, right? And we So then

[01:13:32] we're like, where do we live? What kind

[01:13:33] of a house do we want? We spend all this

[01:13:35] time, maybe while we're engaged, maybe

[01:13:37] while we're dating, maybe after we're

[01:13:39] married. But those are big decisions,

[01:13:42] right? But when we choose a business

[01:13:43] partner, we go get avocado toast

[01:13:46] together and we're like, "50-50, cool,

[01:13:48] sounds good. Let's do this." You know,

[01:13:49] I'll get the doc signed. It's like, who

[01:13:51] is that guy? You might have even known

[01:13:53] him your whole life, but who is he as a

[01:13:55] business partner or as a business

[01:13:56] person? I just I feel like business

[01:13:59] partnerships are significantly harder

[01:14:01] than marriages even. But we put 99% less

[01:14:06] thought into like the structure of

[01:14:08] things. And that's a giant failure that

[01:14:10] I've made over and over again. What do

[01:14:12] you wish someone had said to you in the

[01:14:14] situations where it didn't work out with

[01:14:16] business partners or really like across

[01:14:17] the board? Because I I read that you'd

[01:14:18] had what, seven business partners? It

[01:14:20] says that I've had like 15.

[01:14:22] >> Okay. So, in those 15 occasions, what is

[01:14:25] the advice you wish someone had given

[01:14:26] you before you engaged in those business

[01:14:28] relationships? Yeah. Well, what do they

[01:14:30] say about dating? It's like be a be a

[01:14:32] good like the best way to find a good

[01:14:34] spouse is to be a good spouse. Best way

[01:14:36] to find a good girlfriend. You know what

[01:14:38] I'm saying? You've got to learn more

[01:14:39] about yourself before you partner with

[01:14:41] someone else. Most people have no idea

[01:14:43] like who they are as a business person

[01:14:45] or as an entrepreneur when they partner.

[01:14:46] They don't know what their strengths are

[01:14:47] or their weaknesses are. They sure don't

[01:14:49] know what the other guys strengths or

[01:14:50] weaknesses are. So, I suggest people

[01:14:53] solo found things to start to learn more

[01:14:56] about themselves. Are they a visionary?

[01:14:58] Are they an integrator, starter,

[01:14:59] maintainer, finisher? Who are they? And

[01:15:02] then when they want to jump into another

[01:15:04] thing, because inevitably if we launch

[01:15:05] one thing, we're going to launch more.

[01:15:07] they know more about what to look for in

[01:15:09] a partner. Um, and they can optimize for

[01:15:12] that. What about equity?

[01:15:15] Yeah. I mean, 50/50 is the old standby,

[01:15:18] right? Um, could you imagine if you like

[01:15:22] you go on a first date and it's like,

[01:15:25] how many kids do you want? Four. Okay,

[01:15:28] we'll have four. We'll get married and

[01:15:30] that's how many we will have. Uh, no

[01:15:32] matter what. That's a 50/50 partnership,

[01:15:35] right? It's making an incredibly

[01:15:37] important decision based on they both

[01:15:40] equal 100. Numbers sound clean to me,

[01:15:43] but like what is the statistical chance?

[01:15:45] This is what needs to be true for a

[01:15:46] 50/50 partnership to work. Okay, they

[01:15:49] both have to be allin. They both have to

[01:15:52] always be allin for the whole lifespan

[01:15:54] of the business. Maybe years, maybe

[01:15:56] decades. They have to put in the same

[01:15:57] amount of money, same amount of effort,

[01:15:59] same amount of connections, value,

[01:16:01] history, background. Also, both of them

[01:16:04] should be completely selfless, right?

[01:16:06] And not care if the other one's not

[01:16:08] pulling his weight. I'm taking a

[01:16:10] month-long vacation. Cool. You'll make

[01:16:11] up for it later. They have to be like

[01:16:13] that chill of a human being. And of

[01:16:15] course, like they have to be the same as

[01:16:17] the other person. If all those things

[01:16:19] are true, 50/50 works great.

[01:16:21] >> And they need to develop going forward

[01:16:23] in the same way because for the next 10

[01:16:25] future,

[01:16:25] >> they need to grow at the same rate.

[01:16:26] >> Yeah.

[01:16:27] >> Yeah. Which will never never ever be the

[01:16:29] case. So, I like to say like you don't

[01:16:31] want to uh DTR, define the relationship

[01:16:34] too early or too late. If you sit down

[01:16:37] at brunch and you're like, "Let's do

[01:16:38] 50/50. Cool." Big mistake. If you you're

[01:16:41] 2 years down the line and you've got all

[01:16:43] this revenue and customers and you're

[01:16:45] like, "All right, we should probably

[01:16:45] formalize this." Too late. Cuz like that

[01:16:48] only works if the business just stays at

[01:16:50] like a steady state forever, which it

[01:16:53] won't. It's going to go up or it's going

[01:16:54] to go down, right? And like things get

[01:16:57] really ugly when either one of those two

[01:16:59] scenarios happen. So the sweet spot in

[01:17:02] my experience is listen, this is how

[01:17:04] this conversation would would work.

[01:17:05] We're going to partner together. Hey, um

[01:17:08] I think you're going to be great for

[01:17:09] this business because you have a sales

[01:17:11] background. You're great at sales. You

[01:17:12] have a lot of contacts in the industry.

[01:17:14] I don't have any of that. I don't even

[01:17:15] like sales. I don't know anything about

[01:17:17] sales. But I'm an amazing engineer. Like

[01:17:19] I know I can build this thing. You've

[01:17:20] seen me build other websites, other apps

[01:17:23] in the past. I already have like a

[01:17:24] wireframe in mind. Like, we're going to

[01:17:26] be great for this, right? So, let's just

[01:17:29] do this. I don't know how this is going

[01:17:31] to go. I don't know how much time you

[01:17:32] have. We both have full-time jobs. Um,

[01:17:35] why don't we just get to $10,000 in

[01:17:38] revenue? Um, let's get product market

[01:17:40] fit. Let's get some good traction. Maybe

[01:17:42] we'll get like you really have to set a

[01:17:44] a defined metric around it. Not like

[01:17:46] let's see how this goes in 30 days, but

[01:17:48] something like a revenue number, number

[01:17:50] of customers, or something. at that

[01:17:52] point, let's sit down. Let's just like

[01:17:54] put it in the calendar today and let's

[01:17:55] have a conversation about what our

[01:17:57] equity looks like. Uh because almost

[01:18:00] every time they're going to be remote

[01:18:03] just based on the world we live in or

[01:18:05] one person will put in more money or one

[01:18:07] person has more experience. Um and all

[01:18:10] those things are are relevant, but

[01:18:12] >> you're going to get resentment

[01:18:14] >> 100%. And you're probably not going to

[01:18:16] talk about that resentment and it's only

[01:18:18] going to get worse. um it'll only get

[01:18:21] worse if you know things either go up or

[01:18:24] down. So they they will always get

[01:18:25] worse. Um but it's it's hard to define

[01:18:28] because one person might have 30 years

[01:18:30] of industry experience and contacts and

[01:18:32] expertise and he can make one phone call

[01:18:34] that changes everything and the other

[01:18:36] person might be 18 years old and just a

[01:18:38] hustler and willing to put in 80 hours a

[01:18:40] week. So is the level of value the same

[01:18:42] if the level of hours put into the

[01:18:44] business not the same?

[01:18:47] It's hard. Like it's it's really hard to

[01:18:49] say, "Hey, my one phone call made us 10

[01:18:51] millions of dollars, tens of millions of

[01:18:53] dollars, but you've done all the work.

[01:18:55] You're the operator, so we should be

[01:18:57] 50/50." They're both going to take issue

[01:18:59] with that. The only instance I was

[01:19:02] thinking about all the business

[01:19:03] partnerships that I'm aware of. So

[01:19:05] companies I've invested in. There's

[01:19:06] about 60 or 70 companies I've invested

[01:19:08] in and then businesses I've started

[01:19:10] myself. And the one time I've seen it

[01:19:13] work to split equally, the two people

[01:19:16] had known each other for a long long

[01:19:18] time and they were both late in their

[01:19:22] career. M

[01:19:23] >> so they're like you know when we think

[01:19:24] about rate of development and potential

[01:19:28] not only did they have a strong

[01:19:29] relationship they'd known each other a

[01:19:31] long time they'd worked together for

[01:19:33] more than 5 years together and they're

[01:19:35] sort of later in a more mature phase of

[01:19:38] their career

[01:19:39] >> where you know like the kids situation's

[01:19:41] figured itself out are they going to

[01:19:42] have kids or not and there hasn't been

[01:19:45] some of the big life disruptors that

[01:19:47] sometimes can come along and change

[01:19:48] things and then I can think of another

[01:19:50] example where um two people knew each

[01:19:53] other. They were very, very young.

[01:19:54] They'd worked together before. The

[01:19:56] contract went in 50/50, although it was

[01:19:58] never really equal. And then their rate

[01:20:01] of growth changed wildly where one

[01:20:03] person

[01:20:05] >> really just like became a superstar. And

[01:20:08] they look back at the contract and it

[01:20:09] was 50/50. And I remember being privy to

[01:20:11] the conversation where that person

[01:20:12] turned around to their business partner

[01:20:14] was like, "This is not fair."

[01:20:15] >> Yeah.

[01:20:16] >> This company without me goes to zero.

[01:20:18] Without you, it keeps growing.

[01:20:20] >> Yeah. And there was an adjustment made

[01:20:22] to the equity at that point, which is

[01:20:23] hard to do because of tax reasons and

[01:20:24] stuff. But

[01:20:25] >> yeah, the one thing I will say about a

[01:20:27] 50/50 and going in with someone that

[01:20:29] you've known for a long time, or going

[01:20:30] in with your best friend, that can be

[01:20:32] really freaking fun. Like, it can just

[01:20:34] be the most enjoyable life ever. So,

[01:20:37] it's just very high risk and very high

[01:20:39] reward. And if you can make it work,

[01:20:41] like often times the biggest and the

[01:20:43] best and the most well-ran companies you

[01:20:45] see were 50/50 partners that knew each

[01:20:48] other for a long time for that reason.

[01:20:50] Um, but the rate of failure is higher

[01:20:52] than average. So, in these uh three

[01:20:54] suitcases in front of me, I have

[01:20:57] different amounts of money.

[01:20:59] >> Mhm.

[01:20:59] >> And all I want you to do is to let me

[01:21:02] know if I was giving you this amount of

[01:21:04] money, what business you would start.

[01:21:10] Okay, so the first one

[01:21:14] has

[01:21:16] $500 here.

[01:21:19] Awesome. So, most people would look at

[01:21:20] this and think, "What am I going to do

[01:21:22] with $500?" That's a lot of money,

[01:21:24] right? In in the age of today with

[01:21:26] 30-day free trials and uh a lot of

[01:21:29] Silicon Valley funded companies willing

[01:21:32] to give you a lot of money to test your

[01:21:33] product, this goes a long way. So the

[01:21:35] first thing to come to mind that comes

[01:21:37] to mind is probably my favorite business

[01:21:39] idea of all right now and thankfully you

[01:21:42] can start it with even less than this

[01:21:43] and that would be a business that helps

[01:21:45] implement AI into small businesses small

[01:21:48] to mediumsiz businesses. So some facts

[01:21:50] for you there's 400 million small

[01:21:52] businesses on the planet. They've

[01:21:54] surveyed some of these business owners

[01:21:57] um and 77% of them have admitted that

[01:22:01] like AI would be transformational to

[01:22:03] their business. They need AI. It's not a

[01:22:05] fad. It's not going away. 5% of them

[01:22:08] have claimed they're using AI in a

[01:22:10] meaningful way, right? And define that

[01:22:12] as you will. So, basically, we have this

[01:22:14] knowledge gap, right? We know it's like

[01:22:17] a it's like a business cognitive

[01:22:18] dissonance, if you will. We know we need

[01:22:20] to do something and we're not doing it.

[01:22:22] Doesn't matter how easy the tools are.

[01:22:24] Doesn't matter how much you can create a

[01:22:26] new website or an app with one prompt.

[01:22:27] Um, they need someone to do it, right? I

[01:22:30] know how to vacuum my floor. I know how

[01:22:32] to clean my house. I still would rather

[01:22:34] just pay someone to do it. Okay. And so

[01:22:36] with a fifth of the money, call it a

[01:22:38] $100, I would start learning some vibe

[01:22:40] coding tools. Um, Replet, Lindy, there's

[01:22:43] a ton of them out there.

[01:22:44] >> What is vibe coding for anyone that

[01:22:46] doesn't?

[01:22:46] >> Vibe coding is the non-technical person,

[01:22:49] the non-coder such as myself using their

[01:22:52] natural language to just say, "Hey,

[01:22:54] build me an app that manages customers

[01:22:57] for dog trainers." You'll have an app,

[01:23:00] right? Is it fully functional? Is

[01:23:02] workable yet? Not quite, but 10 to 20

[01:23:04] more prompts and you're good to go.

[01:23:06] >> And for anyone that doesn't know, I I

[01:23:07] would suggest I'm an investor in both

[01:23:08] Lovable and Replet. So, disclaimer, but

[01:23:10] I would recommend going on Replet or

[01:23:12] Lovable and um typing in any website ID

[01:23:17] you have just to have that sort of

[01:23:18] eureka moment of watching it be made in

[01:23:20] front of you. I think that Eureka moment

[01:23:22] is the moment your mind expands to the

[01:23:24] possibilities that are currently right

[01:23:25] in front of all of us.

[01:23:26] >> Yes. You know, we think of building

[01:23:28] websites or apps as exclusive to those

[01:23:30] that have spent 5 years learning to

[01:23:31] code. That has now changed.

[01:23:33] >> Yeah, we can all do it. Yeah. And

[01:23:35] everyone should, like you said, one

[01:23:37] prompt, develop an app. Oh, what do I

[01:23:39] prompt? What do I build? Ask Chad GBT

[01:23:40] what to build. Copy paste one of those.

[01:23:43] Ask Chad to prompt it. Take it over to

[01:23:45] repletter lovable, paste it, and see

[01:23:47] what it builds. So, I would use this as

[01:23:49] my education and also to build a

[01:23:51] website, right? Chris's automations.com,

[01:23:54] whatever, anything.

[01:23:55] >> [snorts]

[01:23:55] >> And then I would take the rest of the

[01:23:57] money and I would put it into ads,

[01:24:00] right? Um, preferably meta ads, Facebook

[01:24:02] ads, and I would target local

[01:24:05] businesses. Even though this is a global

[01:24:06] thing, if I live in Omaha, Nebraska, I

[01:24:08] could sell this to people in Tokyo.

[01:24:10] Doesn't matter. I'm going to put a

[01:24:11] radius around Omaha and my ads are going

[01:24:14] to say, "I'm Chris and I can help put AI

[01:24:17] into your business." I'm going to use

[01:24:18] fifth grade words. I'm not going to use

[01:24:21] LLM. I'm not even going to say Chad GPT.

[01:24:23] I'm just going to say, I will make your

[01:24:25] business more money or save your

[01:24:27] business money with AI, just a service

[01:24:30] business. And then I'll get on discovery

[01:24:32] calls with these business owners and

[01:24:33] I'll just start peppering them with

[01:24:35] questions about their business. And over

[01:24:37] time, I'm going to learn based on their

[01:24:39] answers what their problems are, what

[01:24:41] they're struggling with. Is it hiring?

[01:24:43] Is it payroll? Is it sales? Usually,

[01:24:44] it's going to be sales, right? And then

[01:24:46] I'm going to take this money over here,

[01:24:48] this $100, and go back to those apps and

[01:24:51] start building solutions for them for

[01:24:52] free. just to kind of implement myself

[01:24:54] as an expert.

[01:24:55] >> And what are you going to charge them?

[01:24:57] >> I'm going to charge them between $500

[01:24:59] and $5,000 upfront one time to implement

[01:25:03] it. And then I'm going to charge them

[01:25:04] 20% of that amount in an ongoing basis

[01:25:07] to maintain it and fix it as it breaks.

[01:25:10] Let's say there's a gutter cleaning

[01:25:12] business in Omaha, Nebraska that doesn't

[01:25:16] want to take calls after hours. He's

[01:25:18] with his wife watching Netflix and he

[01:25:19] knows that's a $3,000 job. he doesn't

[01:25:22] want to take it. So, it's going to

[01:25:23] voicemail and they're calling someone

[01:25:25] else that is taking it, right? So, I'm

[01:25:27] going to build an AI voice agent for

[01:25:29] him, which sounds really intimidating.

[01:25:31] It feels like we have to have all these

[01:25:32] skills. You don't. You just need to

[01:25:33] prompt a couple tools a couple times.

[01:25:35] I'm going to build a voice agent for him

[01:25:37] and then I'm going to tell him to call

[01:25:38] that agent as if he were a customer and

[01:25:41] say, "Hey, pretend you're a customer

[01:25:42] that needs uh gutter cleaning. You're

[01:25:43] calling at 9:30 p.m. and just see how it

[01:25:45] reacts." He's expecting there to be a

[01:25:48] delay. There's really not. He's

[01:25:49] expecting it to be dumb. It's not. He's

[01:25:52] expecting it to need to know all about

[01:25:53] his business. It doesn't, right? The AI

[01:25:56] knows about gutter cleaning businesses.

[01:25:58] Then he's sold, right? Charge him $3,000

[01:26:01] for that. You build it and then you

[01:26:03] charge them, call it 500 or 600 a month

[01:26:05] to maintain it over time. And then the

[01:26:07] beautiful thing is you can go to every

[01:26:08] other gutter cleaning business in Omaha

[01:26:10] or anywhere and copy and paste that same

[01:26:12] app and sell it to them.

[01:26:14] >> Gotcha. So selling AI to small business

[01:26:17] owners who are in huge demand but don't

[01:26:19] have the time or think they need some

[01:26:22] sort of incredible

[01:26:24] expensive time and resource expensive

[01:26:27] competence to understand AI when

[01:26:29] actually AI is really really simple.

[01:26:31] >> Yes.

[01:26:31] >> And we see this play out over history

[01:26:33] where there's an initial arbitrage when

[01:26:35] a new technology comes into play. Mhm.

[01:26:37] >> In fact, one of the call center jobs

[01:26:40] that I had when I was very very broke

[01:26:41] many many years ago when I was like 18

[01:26:43] um or [clears throat] 19 was calling

[01:26:47] businesses from the yellow pages and

[01:26:49] selling them Facebook ads.

[01:26:51] >> I would call a builder on a building

[01:26:53] site. I'd speak to Dave who's the owner

[01:26:55] of the building company and I'd explain

[01:26:57] Facebook ads to him over the phone and

[01:26:59] then I'd set them up for him and manage

[01:27:01] them for him on an ongoing basis and

[01:27:03] just send him the leads

[01:27:04] >> because he didn't understand Facebook

[01:27:06] ads. And these opportunities seem to

[01:27:07] exist

[01:27:09] >> for years when there's a new technology

[01:27:11] as as we're seeing with AI.

[01:27:13] >> But the thing is with that idea and with

[01:27:14] most ideas in my experience, we think

[01:27:16] there's a very limited time span. But if

[01:27:19] I were to start that business today and

[01:27:20] just start calling, it would work.

[01:27:21] >> Yeah, you could still do it. Yeah, I

[01:27:23] might have more competitors, but like it

[01:27:24] it doesn't matter. It would still work.

[01:27:26] Interestingly, the the issue back then

[01:27:28] was people didn't even know what

[01:27:29] Facebook ads were. So maybe it works to

[01:27:31] some degree better now. People have

[01:27:34] heard the word.

[01:27:34] >> Yeah. You were pretty early. Yeah, it

[01:27:36] was 2015 or something.

[01:27:38] >> So, it was it was quite rough, but it

[01:27:40] was a business nonetheless. Yeah.

[01:27:41] >> And there was 40 other people in the

[01:27:42] room with me in that call center doing

[01:27:44] it.

[01:27:44] >> Wow.

[01:27:45] >> So, that's the first idea you have.

[01:27:46] >> Yeah.

[01:27:47] >> What else? $500. What else could you do?

[01:27:49] >> Okay. Do you want a uh you want a

[01:27:51] physical business or an online business?

[01:27:52] Or does it not matter?

[01:27:53] >> What about a physical one?

[01:27:55] >> All right. For a physical one, I would

[01:27:58] um have you heard of dropervicing?

[01:28:00] >> No. So the phrase drop shipping has kind

[01:28:03] of has a bad rap and some of it for good

[01:28:05] reason which is basically buying a

[01:28:08] product in China uh having a website for

[01:28:10] it and basically having the Chinese

[01:28:13] manufacturer or the supplier ship it

[01:28:14] directly to your customer so you don't

[01:28:15] have to take possession of the inventory

[01:28:17] right drop servicing is doing something

[01:28:19] similar with a service call it a let's

[01:28:21] call it a home service business right so

[01:28:23] in this case it would look like um a

[01:28:26] garage repair company that has a website

[01:28:28] that looks like they have a physical

[01:28:30] presence in a market, but is really just

[01:28:32] a lead genen factory, right? And so what

[01:28:34] you're doing is you're using Facebook or

[01:28:36] Google ads to generate leads, kind of

[01:28:38] like what you were doing on Facebook um

[01:28:40] for a local business, and then you're

[01:28:42] you're instead of just selling the leads

[01:28:45] for $20, you're actually doing more of

[01:28:48] the work. You're you're subcontracting

[01:28:50] out the work to a local business that

[01:28:52] actually repairs garage doors. They're

[01:28:54] the fulfillment arm of the business.

[01:28:56] You're the marketing arm of the

[01:28:57] business. So, in essence, you have a

[01:28:59] garage repair um business without

[01:29:02] actually having one. Like, you don't

[01:29:04] know anything about garage doors. You've

[01:29:05] never been on site. You're just drop

[01:29:07] servicing. You're you're sending all the

[01:29:08] work to a local company to do it.

[01:29:10] >> So, I a car repair company. I I put up a

[01:29:14] car repair website. I use Facebook ads

[01:29:16] to drive people towards it. When they

[01:29:18] click to buy my my car repair, I call a

[01:29:22] local car repair person and say, "Hey,

[01:29:24] I've got a customer here for you. Um can

[01:29:26] you take them?" I book the customer in.

[01:29:29] >> They handle the car repair. I take the

[01:29:31] payment and pay the garage. Yep. Great

[01:29:33] question. So, let's just say in your

[01:29:35] example, um, an oil change at at some at

[01:29:38] Bob's car repair that doesn't have a

[01:29:40] website is 40 bucks, which is a great

[01:29:41] price. Your website is clean, it's nice,

[01:29:44] they can pay with a few clicks and it's

[01:29:46] 80 bucks, right? So, you call Bob one

[01:29:48] day and say, "Hey, congratulations. I

[01:29:51] have a lead. I don't have a lead. I have

[01:29:52] a customer. I want to send you $40. Her

[01:29:54] name is Mary. She's going to be coming

[01:29:56] in. She has a sequoia. She needs an oil

[01:29:58] change, right? And so Mary just

[01:30:00] interacts with you. She's trusting you

[01:30:02] with the money. You don't have to trust

[01:30:03] Bob with the money. Uh you just send Bob

[01:30:05] the money. You make even more margin

[01:30:07] than Bob makes. Right? It's a higher

[01:30:10] price service, but what you're charging

[01:30:11] for is the better UI, the better user

[01:30:14] experience, and having a a cleaner

[01:30:16] checkout method. And is there particular

[01:30:19] types of businesses you would target

[01:30:20] with that approach? Are you targeting

[01:30:21] ones that have a shitty customer

[01:30:23] experience, bad website, etc. in the

[01:30:25] home services, like take your pick. Um,

[01:30:28] they pretty much all do, right? Um,

[01:30:30] there are some more established

[01:30:31] industries like roofing that don't have

[01:30:33] those issues, uh, because they have

[01:30:35] higher margins, so they can afford

[01:30:36] better websites, but um, they pretty

[01:30:38] much all have a bad experience.

[01:30:40] >> Any others at that $500 level that stand

[01:30:42] out to you?

[01:30:44] >> Yeah, I love um, directory websites.

[01:30:46] What's that?

[01:30:47] >> So, Travel Velocity is a directory

[01:30:49] website. Yelp is a directory website.

[01:30:50] It's a website with a list of things

[01:30:53] that helps people find answers to their

[01:30:55] questions more easily. So, another

[01:30:58] example of a website could be like

[01:31:00] Wisconsin um ice suppliers.com. I don't

[01:31:03] know if that's a website, right? Where

[01:31:05] if I need to go buy ice for my party,

[01:31:07] I'm going to Google ice near me. Um some

[01:31:10] categories are so niche or so unevenly

[01:31:13] distributed that Google Maps is not a

[01:31:14] good solution for it. Right? So, you're

[01:31:16] directed to these random directory

[01:31:18] websites that are just lists of other

[01:31:20] businesses. Um, and what people are

[01:31:22] doing is they're proactively creating

[01:31:24] their own directories by scraping uh

[01:31:26] let's say every dog park in Seattle,

[01:31:29] Washington, and putting them on a

[01:31:30] website and then they don't they don't

[01:31:32] even drive traffic to it. There's no

[01:31:34] paid ads. They just wait for Google and

[01:31:36] for SEO to do its trick. And it's very

[01:31:39] much an 8020 rule. you could kind of

[01:31:41] build the architecture for a directory

[01:31:43] website with replet or lovable and then

[01:31:45] you just copy and paste it right in

[01:31:47] different markets. Uh so the play here

[01:31:49] is to have dozens of directory websites

[01:31:51] and some of them make $0 a month, some

[01:31:53] make a few hundred, some make a few

[01:31:55] thousand, but it's very passive. It's

[01:31:57] like one of those rare things that's

[01:31:58] passive yet also doesn't need a ton of

[01:32:01] money to get to get started.

[01:32:03] >> Where's the money coming from? Where's

[01:32:04] the revenue?

[01:32:06] >> Great question. You can either do like

[01:32:07] display ads.

[01:32:08] >> What's a display ad? just a banner ad on

[01:32:10] a website.

[01:32:11] >> And are you having to go and sell that

[01:32:13] ad to someone that wants to buy it?

[01:32:14] >> You would just take Google's like ad

[01:32:16] network and just put it on your website.

[01:32:18] So you don't have to do anything.

[01:32:19] >> So you can just click a button and it'll

[01:32:21] add adverts to your website which you'll

[01:32:23] you'll then paid for.

[01:32:24] >> Yep. Or you could um you could just

[01:32:27] aggregate those leads. Like if we had

[01:32:28] dog parks in Seattle and you know we see

[01:32:31] on our Google Analytics that we're

[01:32:32] driving traffic to this one dog park,

[01:32:34] then we reach out to them proactively

[01:32:36] and say, "Hey, you notice all these

[01:32:38] customers you've been getting?" That's

[01:32:39] because I put you on my website. Would

[01:32:41] you like to pay $300 a year or a month

[01:32:43] or whatever for priority placement?

[01:32:45] Right? So, I like to call this

[01:32:47] permissionless marketing. Um, you're

[01:32:49] just proactively adding these businesses

[01:32:51] to a website. They have nothing to lose.

[01:32:52] You have nothing to lose. And then once

[01:32:54] you see traffic, then you reach out to

[01:32:56] them and say, "Hey, I've been bringing

[01:32:57] you more business. Would you like to

[01:32:58] start paying for that?"

[01:33:00] >> Interesting.

[01:33:02] And how much money can someone hope to

[01:33:03] make if they execute that strategy well

[01:33:05] in your view? What's realistic

[01:33:07] >> with a directory website? It could be

[01:33:09] tens of dollars a month and it could be

[01:33:11] tens of thousands of dollars a month,

[01:33:12] but we're not talking about building

[01:33:14] another Yelp or Travel Velocity. This is

[01:33:15] a zero employee business with that cost

[01:33:18] almost nothing, less than $100 to start.

[01:33:22] Um, but it's just a numbers game. You're

[01:33:24] not really going to know what directory

[01:33:25] really hits until months have passed and

[01:33:28] until you have a lot of surface area for

[01:33:30] these experiments.

[01:33:32] I hear a lot of people talking about

[01:33:34] vending machines online and I've always

[01:33:37] been really curious about that. People

[01:33:38] say you can make money from vending

[01:33:39] machines.

[01:33:40] >> Yeah. Could you do that with $500?

[01:33:42] >> Absolutely. So, if we were doing another

[01:33:43] physical business, um I would go to

[01:33:46] Facebook Marketplace and I would find an

[01:33:49] existing vending machine uh for $3 to

[01:33:52] $400, right? That could be a snack or a

[01:33:55] drink vending machine. Um often times

[01:33:57] the expensive part of a vending machine

[01:33:59] is the credit card reader. It can often

[01:34:01] cost more or as much as the whole

[01:34:03] machine itself. And then I would use a

[01:34:04] $100 to stock the machine um with

[01:34:07] Costco. Costco Sam's Club is where all

[01:34:09] of these operators buy their snacks,

[01:34:11] believe it or not. And then I just need

[01:34:12] one business owner to give me a chance

[01:34:15] um to allow me to put the vending

[01:34:16] machine in his lobby. Let's say it's a

[01:34:17] car repair business. I can say, "Hey,

[01:34:19] I'll pay you 100 bucks a month or hey,

[01:34:21] I'll split the revenue with you. I'll

[01:34:23] give you 30% of the revenue." And then

[01:34:24] once I have one, that's the hardest

[01:34:26] part. Now you have a track record. Now,

[01:34:28] you can say, "Hey, Bob's Auto Repair

[01:34:30] makes $700 a month passively cuz he let

[01:34:32] me put uh this vending machine there."

[01:34:34] This is a business that can be passive

[01:34:36] if you have an employee to restock it.

[01:34:38] That is the active part of the business

[01:34:39] is the restocking and the selling of new

[01:34:41] locations. Um, but if you have an ATM,

[01:34:44] then that becomes even easier because

[01:34:46] you can outsource all of the restocking

[01:34:48] to a cash management company.

[01:34:50] >> How much money could one person hope to

[01:34:52] make from a vending machine business?

[01:34:53] And have you ever run this business

[01:34:55] yourself?

[01:34:55] >> I have. I've actually been in a

[01:34:57] different part of the vertical. I've

[01:34:58] sold vending machines. I posted a a

[01:35:01] video to Instagram that got tens of

[01:35:02] millions of views and we started just

[01:35:04] importing those vending machines that I

[01:35:06] was talking about in the video uh and

[01:35:08] then selling them to entrepreneurs. But

[01:35:10] the level of revenue is I mean it's as

[01:35:13] much as you want to scale it. I have a

[01:35:14] friend in San Diego that makes seven

[01:35:16] figures a year uh on vending machines,

[01:35:19] just snacks and drinks. Is there an art

[01:35:21] to good vending machine placement or the

[01:35:23] right things to sell in the vending

[01:35:24] machine or anything else?

[01:35:26] >> Yeah, it's funny that you asked that

[01:35:27] because he said, you know, I'm in San

[01:35:30] Diego, people are health consscious here

[01:35:31] and he tested all these healthy concepts

[01:35:33] and they all failed. Like people want

[01:35:35] Doritos and Coke and Diet Coke, right?

[01:35:38] So that's all they have now. That's

[01:35:39] where the demand is. But the biggest

[01:35:42] needle mover on this is the location.

[01:35:44] And it's a matter of testing. Back to

[01:35:46] testing, right? Testing what types of

[01:35:48] locations he landed on. um apartment

[01:35:50] complexes, like apartment lobbies. He

[01:35:52] tried auto repair shops and they just

[01:35:54] weren't high volume. But it's the type

[01:35:57] of business kind of like directories

[01:35:58] where if you have a 100 vending

[01:36:00] machines, um you're going to have 20 of

[01:36:02] them that make $3,000 a month each and

[01:36:05] then you're going to have 80 of them

[01:36:06] that make $400 a month each. But once

[01:36:09] you find out what types of locations are

[01:36:11] the most profitable, then you just start

[01:36:13] directly reaching out to those types of

[01:36:15] locations.

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[01:37:22] product that has such a huge impact on

[01:37:24] your life that you'd probably describe

[01:37:26] as a gamecher. And I would say for about

[01:37:30] 35 to 40% of my team, they would

[01:37:34] currently describe this product that I

[01:37:36] have in front of me called Ketone IQ,

[01:37:38] which you can get at ketone.com

[01:37:40] as a game changer. But the reason I

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[01:38:24] has slightly more money in double. Okay.

[01:38:27] $1,000. What would you do with $1,000?

[01:38:31] All right. So,

[01:38:34] for whatever reason, when I see $1,000,

[01:38:37] I think um about the wedding rental

[01:38:40] business. Do you know anything about

[01:38:42] that?

[01:38:42] >> No.

[01:38:43] >> So,

[01:38:45] believe it or not, um weddings are

[01:38:47] increasing in popularity. People are

[01:38:48] getting out uh getting married outside

[01:38:51] more than ever. I think like 75% of

[01:38:53] weddings are outside now, which is

[01:38:55] increasing every year. Um and that

[01:38:57] increases the market for these random

[01:38:59] one-off rentals, right? I read an

[01:39:02] article on Reddit about a guy that built

[01:39:04] a wedding arch from his garage with some

[01:39:07] 2x4s, some lumber. I think he spent like

[01:39:11] 200 or $300 to build it. And he rents it

[01:39:14] out to weddings for like $1,000 per

[01:39:16] wedding. And it's just a a piece of wood

[01:39:18] for the couples to stand under as they

[01:39:20] say, "I do." Right. And so he works with

[01:39:23] event organizers or wedding organizers

[01:39:24] to continually rent it to the wedding

[01:39:26] organizer.

[01:39:27] >> Exactly. He doesn't go through the

[01:39:29] brides. He goes through the wedding

[01:39:30] planners because surface area they have

[01:39:32] they're touching all kinds of weddings

[01:39:34] on a regular basis. To find these

[01:39:36] wedding planners, you go to the knot,

[01:39:38] you go to zola, wedding wire, you scrape

[01:39:41] them and all of their phone numbers and

[01:39:43] emails and names and businesses are on

[01:39:45] the website for everyone to see and you

[01:39:47] just start reaching out. And one contact

[01:39:49] could be one wedding a week. So that

[01:39:52] could be started that could be in the

[01:39:53] $500 box, right?

[01:39:55] >> You could [clears throat] spend $300 on

[01:39:58] supplies. You could spend $100 on

[01:40:02] scraping all the emails quite cheaply.

[01:40:05] Um, and then you could spend $100 on gas

[01:40:09] and then or let's say another $100 on

[01:40:12] renting a truck and trailer from Home

[01:40:14] Depot. Say you have a car. Say you don't

[01:40:15] have a car, right? You've got $400 left

[01:40:18] over to go to a nice meal or to uh or

[01:40:21] for Facebook ads.

[01:40:23] So, photo walls are very popular.

[01:40:26] shakuerie carts where wedding uh patrons

[01:40:30] can make their own shakuderie board. Um

[01:40:33] you can do like custom pizzas at

[01:40:35] weddings. You could do wedding arches.

[01:40:37] Um there's a lot of different

[01:40:39] opportunities there.

[01:40:41] >> Weddings and funerals.

[01:40:43] >> Yeah, cuz everything you said there

[01:40:45] could also apply to funerals.

[01:40:47] >> That's true.

[01:40:47] >> They don't seem to be stopping either.

[01:40:50] >> Guess funerals are going to get more

[01:40:51] popular with the population.

[01:40:53] >> Yep.

[01:40:53] >> Continuing to increase.

[01:40:56] What else? So, wedding rentals is the

[01:40:58] first one you do with $1,000. Anything

[01:40:59] else?

[01:41:00] >> Yeah. Should we do a an online one?

[01:41:02] >> Sure.

[01:41:03] >> So, there's a lot of people nowadays

[01:41:05] making money with local email

[01:41:07] newsletters.

[01:41:08] >> Are you very familiar with that?

[01:41:10] >> No.

[01:41:10] >> So, basically what you do, we keep

[01:41:13] coming back to this is like a big ad for

[01:41:14] Facebook, right? I swear it's not.

[01:41:16] >> But, um, people are using local Facebook

[01:41:19] ads. Um, let's say you live in Boise,

[01:41:21] Idaho. There's 200,000 people there. You

[01:41:23] post a Facebook ad that says, "Hey, find

[01:41:25] out what's happening in Boise, Idaho.

[01:41:27] One email per week in your inbox. You

[01:41:30] can acquire a subscriber for about 50

[01:41:33] cents from Facebook or Instagram." Okay,

[01:41:37] let's call it a dollar to be to be more

[01:41:39] conservative. Acquire a subscriber for a

[01:41:41] dollar. If you sell ads inside that

[01:41:44] email newsletter, you can charge about

[01:41:46] 50 cents per month um per subscriber.

[01:41:51] So, if we had $1,000,

[01:41:55] I would use a free trial for an email

[01:41:57] newsletter software like Beehive or

[01:41:59] ConvertKit or any of those. And so, I've

[01:42:02] already spent $0. And I would give all

[01:42:05] $1,000 to Meta. I would set a defined

[01:42:08] radius in a local area. Preferably, it's

[01:42:10] where you live, but it doesn't have to

[01:42:11] be. It could be on the other side of the

[01:42:12] world. I've launched this. I tested this

[01:42:14] in New Mexico, and it worked. I'd spend

[01:42:16] $1,000 to acquire a,000 subscribers. Um,

[01:42:19] and then I would start sending them

[01:42:21] weekly newsletters. What's happening in

[01:42:22] Boise, Idaho? Um, discounts in Boise,

[01:42:25] Idaho. News in Boise, Idaho. I would not

[01:42:28] use Chad GPT to write it. I would write

[01:42:29] it myself in my own natural language,

[01:42:31] whether I'm a good writer or not.

[01:42:33] >> Why?

[01:42:33] >> Cuz it needs to feel personal. It needs

[01:42:35] to feel like a local is writing it. Not

[01:42:38] like an author, not like Chad GBT. Um,

[01:42:40] and then I would use those same

[01:42:42] subscribers to source sponsors.

[01:42:45] So Bob's car repair owner is potentially

[01:42:49] in your list. There are 10% of all

[01:42:51] adults are business owners, right? So if

[01:42:53] I have a thousand email subscribers, 100

[01:42:55] of them are going to be business owners

[01:42:56] are going to be potential sponsors to my

[01:42:58] newsletter. So after a month or so, I'm

[01:43:00] going to put send out an email that

[01:43:02] says, "Hey, your ad here. I'd love to

[01:43:04] sponsor your business. It's a very

[01:43:06] relevant market. It costs $500 uh per

[01:43:09] send to send your email." Um, so then if

[01:43:12] I spend $1,000 to acquire these

[01:43:14] customers, I will get that money back

[01:43:17] within two months because I'm I'm making

[01:43:20] $500 a month. 50 cents per subscriber

[01:43:23] from a,000 newsletter subscribers. And

[01:43:26] that can scale um as much as you want.

[01:43:28] If Boise, Idaho is only so big, you copy

[01:43:30] and paste the template in another city

[01:43:32] or a bigger city. Okay, let's move up

[01:43:35] then. This

[01:43:37] This briefcase has a lot more money in

[01:43:41] it.

[01:43:41] >> Mhm.

[01:43:43] $5,000. What side hustle do you start if

[01:43:47] you've got $5,000?

[01:43:49] Okay. So, if we've got a sliding scale

[01:43:53] of active to passive income, the closer

[01:43:55] you get to this to $5,000, the more

[01:43:58] realistic the passive income becomes.

[01:44:00] Okay. So, I'm going to go closer to

[01:44:02] that. Um,

[01:44:05] I love RV parks.

[01:44:07] >> What's an RV park?

[01:44:09] >> An RV park is one of two things. It's a

[01:44:13] place for someone to live in full-time

[01:44:14] for months or years at a time where they

[01:44:16] live in an recreational vehicle in an

[01:44:18] RV.

[01:44:19] >> A camper van.

[01:44:19] >> A camper van. It could be a fixed income

[01:44:22] uh retired person. It could be a

[01:44:24] bluecollar worker. It could be a a

[01:44:27] digital nomad. Right? That's kind of the

[01:44:28] three categories. Um, the other type of

[01:44:31] RV park is a a recreational, like a more

[01:44:34] short-term RV park that might be right

[01:44:36] outside of the Grand Canyon or, you

[01:44:38] know, a popular tourist destination

[01:44:40] where people are staying one to four

[01:44:41] nights at a time, right? This is a

[01:44:44] business I've been in for about 7 years

[01:44:46] now. They have very small RV parks out

[01:44:48] there that are 3 to 10 pad sites that

[01:44:53] are about 3 to 10 times more profitable

[01:44:55] than buying a single family home as a

[01:44:57] rental. Okay. So, I genuinely I don't

[01:45:00] understand why people buy single family

[01:45:02] homes because like buying a small RV

[01:45:05] park costs the same but is significantly

[01:45:08] more profitable and more flexible

[01:45:11] because you have your your risk is more

[01:45:13] distributed amongst five to 10 tenants

[01:45:15] as opposed to one tenant that could go

[01:45:17] bankrupt or disappear in the middle of

[01:45:18] the night. So, with this $5,000,

[01:45:21] um, I would call every small RV park in

[01:45:26] my area, preferably within a three-hour

[01:45:28] drive. I would just find them on Google

[01:45:30] Maps. This would take a little more time

[01:45:31] because we can't allocate any of this

[01:45:33] budget to the finding of the park. We've

[01:45:36] got to do that very manually with the

[01:45:37] our iPhone and our internet connection.

[01:45:39] Okay. I'm going to find, in my

[01:45:42] experience, for every 100 parks I find,

[01:45:45] about two or three of them can be a

[01:45:46] really good deal. Okay. So, if I get a

[01:45:49] 100 people on the phone, I I know I can

[01:45:50] find one good deal from that with seller

[01:45:52] financing because we can't use any of

[01:45:54] this to buy the park either. Got a lot

[01:45:56] of constraints. I'm going to use uh

[01:45:59] let's say

[01:46:01] 2,000 of these dollars um for my due

[01:46:04] diligence. I've got to get inspections

[01:46:06] on the park. I've got to get a title

[01:46:08] policy on the park to make sure it's not

[01:46:10] a scam to make sure that the owner who

[01:46:12] says they own it actually owns it. Um,

[01:46:15] and then with the remainder of the

[01:46:17] money, I need some operating capital. I

[01:46:21] need to be able to pay the power bill to

[01:46:22] maybe trim some trees to get the park

[01:46:25] looking nice on day one. And then to

[01:46:27] actually buy the park, I need to set up

[01:46:29] creative financing with the seller. And

[01:46:31] the best way you can do that is by

[01:46:32] building a relationship with the seller,

[01:46:34] building some trust with them, um,

[01:46:36] showing them that you're going to take

[01:46:37] good care of the park. Now, the unit

[01:46:39] economics on this, let's say you buy a

[01:46:41] park for $200,000.

[01:46:43] In the real estate world, they're valued

[01:46:45] on a cap rate basis, which is the profit

[01:46:48] of the park divided by the asking price

[01:46:51] of the park. So, if I buy a park for a

[01:46:55] 10% cap rate, that means it's going to

[01:46:58] make $20,000 a year of profit and it's

[01:47:01] going to cost me $200,000. Okay? So,

[01:47:04] that park probably has no website. It

[01:47:08] probably has way undermarket rents. It

[01:47:10] probably has occupancy issues because

[01:47:12] they're it has no website. They're not

[01:47:14] doing anything. So, I'm going to get the

[01:47:17] park to perform by literally posting ads

[01:47:22] on Facebook Marketplace, free ads,

[01:47:23] making a free website with a vibe coding

[01:47:26] app and um and increasing the occupancy.

[01:47:29] And that $20,000 a year goes to $30,000

[01:47:33] a year and the park is worth an 8% cap

[01:47:36] rate. You bought it undervalued at 10%.

[01:47:39] So it's now at $3, I don't know, $60,000

[01:47:43] park that you paid $200,000 for. So you

[01:47:45] can either sell it or you can just

[01:47:48] manage it um and enjoy the profits.

[01:47:50] >> When you said seller financing, what

[01:47:52] what does that mean?

[01:47:53] >> That means the seller is holding the

[01:47:56] note. They are bearing the risk of you

[01:47:58] buying the park, but what's in it for

[01:48:00] them is a they can get the park back if

[01:48:04] you default.

[01:48:05] >> Okay. So, they're not actually giving

[01:48:06] you the park up front. They're letting

[01:48:08] you have it today on the basis that

[01:48:10] you'll pay them in the future with

[01:48:11] profits you make.

[01:48:13] >> Exactly. So, you're making monthly

[01:48:14] payments to them. Um because often times

[01:48:17] they're going to take that money that

[01:48:18] you give them and they're going to have

[01:48:20] to invest it in something else,

[01:48:21] something they don't understand. So,

[01:48:22] your pitch to them is, "Hey, you know

[01:48:24] this park better than anyone, right? you

[01:48:26] know what I can do to fix it. You know

[01:48:28] what the deficiencies are. If for some

[01:48:30] reason I'm not who I say I am, you just

[01:48:32] get it back. You take it back and you

[01:48:33] where you started and you keep all the

[01:48:35] money that I've paid you some so far.

[01:48:36] >> How much money have you made from doing

[01:48:38] this?

[01:48:39] >> I've made net profit

[01:48:43] probably 4 to $600,000

[01:48:45] >> revenue.

[01:48:46] >> I would say between 3 and 4 million a

[01:48:48] year

[01:48:50] >> with these RV parks

[01:48:51] >> and mobile home parks as well. Yeah. How

[01:48:53] many of them?

[01:48:54] >> I've been involved with 35 or so over

[01:48:57] the last seven years.

[01:49:01] >> What a bad business.

[01:49:02] >> No, I mean, you're capitalizing on baby

[01:49:04] boomers retiring and on millennials

[01:49:06] traveling and on Yeah, it's just it's a

[01:49:09] growing market. People are getting

[01:49:10] outside more.

[01:49:11] >> Yeah. What What are the macro things you

[01:49:13] you think about at the moment when

[01:49:15] you're trying to decide on a new side

[01:49:16] hustle or a new business to start? Are

[01:49:18] there like obvious macro things that

[01:49:20] happening that we should all be thinking

[01:49:21] about? you just can't ignore AI. Like

[01:49:23] whatever you're doing, AI has to be part

[01:49:25] of it. So I like the the framework of

[01:49:28] implementing new AI tools into old

[01:49:30] businesses. And I like the framework

[01:49:34] that 10,000 um baby boomers are retiring

[01:49:38] every single day and that will be the

[01:49:39] case for the next 5 to 10 years. What's

[01:49:41] the opportunity there

[01:49:42] >> to either buy the businesses or to

[01:49:45] implement AI into the businesses? Um

[01:49:48] those are the two biggest opportunities

[01:49:49] I see. That's true.

[01:49:50] >> Get them to give you the business. So,

[01:49:51] and you run it better in a more digital

[01:49:53] way.

[01:49:54] >> Yeah. And you pay them off for that

[01:49:56] business when you've made profit from

[01:49:58] it. If you don't make the profit, they

[01:49:59] get their business back.

[01:50:00] >> Yes. Now, I will say finding seller

[01:50:02] financing on a business is harder than

[01:50:05] on a piece of real estate. Um, but it is

[01:50:08] possible.

[01:50:09] >> Of all the businesses you you've

[01:50:11] started, which one has been most

[01:50:12] profitable?

[01:50:14] >> And was the easiest?

[01:50:16] >> Oh, man. So, like what is the winner?

[01:50:19] >> I would say either um [clears throat] my

[01:50:22] RV parks business or my my Texas snacks

[01:50:26] business, my e-commerce business. Um and

[01:50:30] they weren't easy because they're easy

[01:50:31] businesses or industry industries.

[01:50:33] They're easy because I had matured

[01:50:37] enough to a point to find

[01:50:40] good operators to run those businesses

[01:50:42] where I had little to no involvement in

[01:50:44] them. Does that make sense?

[01:50:45] >> Yeah. You found people to run them for

[01:50:47] you so that as a starter they didn't die

[01:50:50] the minute you got bored.

[01:50:51] >> Exactly. Whereas

[01:50:52] >> they carried on growing and evolving.

[01:50:54] >> Right. Whereas those are both quite hard

[01:50:55] industries. E-commerce is quite hard and

[01:50:57] uh and real estate is as well. But I had

[01:51:00] good operators.

[01:51:01] >> What have you learned about finding good

[01:51:03] operators?

[01:51:06] H.

[01:51:07] Oh man,

[01:51:10] it all comes down to

[01:51:14] trust. How much trust am I able to put

[01:51:17] in them? How much trust do I have them?

[01:51:19] I've found a um a direct correlation

[01:51:22] between people I know really well um and

[01:51:25] people that have made really good

[01:51:26] operators.

[01:51:27] >> How do you incentivize them?

[01:51:29] >> Directly from the profits of the

[01:51:31] business

[01:51:32] >> so that they feel more like a

[01:51:34] entrepreneur. they've got more of a of a

[01:51:35] piece of the pie.

[01:51:36] >> Yeah, I made the mistake in my 20s of

[01:51:40] dangling a carrot of equity too often.

[01:51:42] Genuinely meaning it like but it most

[01:51:45] equity goes to zero period. Um I put a

[01:51:49] lot more emphasis on cash flow now in my

[01:51:51] 30s than I do on equity. I think equity

[01:51:54] is overrated. And so nowadays, I'm less

[01:51:57] likely to give an operating partner

[01:51:58] equity, not because I don't think they

[01:52:00] deserve it, but because it's more likely

[01:52:02] to go to zero, and I'm more likely to

[01:52:04] cut them in on the profits so they can

[01:52:06] get paid ongoing

[01:52:08] >> on an annual basis or quarterly basis,

[01:52:10] etc.

[01:52:10] >> Quarterly. Yeah.

[01:52:11] >> Interesting. H [clears throat] is there

[01:52:14] any side hustles that you've heard about

[01:52:15] that you wish you'd started?

[01:52:18] >> It's funny because a lot of the ones

[01:52:20] that I wish I started, I started. Like a

[01:52:21] lot of the 80 that I've done, I just

[01:52:23] it's something that I thought about for

[01:52:25] 2 weeks. I can't get it out of my head.

[01:52:26] And I just I have to get it out of my

[01:52:28] head. And so if I start something and it

[01:52:30] fails,

[01:52:31] I don't really care because I don't

[01:52:32] invest a lot of money into it. And I

[01:52:34] answered the question. I don't have to

[01:52:35] like stay up at night wondering if that

[01:52:37] thing would have worked anymore.

[01:52:38] Sometimes I'll like run these tests on

[01:52:40] Facebook that show me such amazing

[01:52:42] results that just kind of unlock an

[01:52:46] opportunity for me. Can I give you an

[01:52:47] analogy?

[01:52:48] >> Yeah.

[01:52:48] >> Have you ever been deep sea fishing? Uh,

[01:52:50] not deep sea fishing. No.

[01:52:52] >> Okay, so here's a real story. I was out

[01:52:54] deep deep sea fishing and we were just

[01:52:57] throwing lures and we weren't getting

[01:52:58] any any uh bites and the captain reaches

[01:53:02] in under the seat and he pulls out

[01:53:04] straws from McDonald's, McDonald's

[01:53:06] straws specifically because they have

[01:53:08] red and yellow stripes along the side of

[01:53:10] them and he pulled out scissors and he

[01:53:12] started cutting them into fourths. And

[01:53:14] then he he took the hook off the line

[01:53:16] and he he put the string through the

[01:53:18] straw and then he tied the hook back on.

[01:53:21] He's like, "I know, seems crazy. Just

[01:53:23] stick with me." And we casted it out and

[01:53:24] we started getting bites. And I'm like,

[01:53:26] "What is it was the same place with the

[01:53:29] same lure, same hook with just a straw."

[01:53:32] And I'm like, "What? Why does this

[01:53:33] work?" And he's like, "It's the colors.

[01:53:36] It's like the white and the red and and

[01:53:39] it just spins as you reel it in and it

[01:53:41] it mimics a fish." And I was like, "How

[01:53:43] did you learn this? Like what made you

[01:53:45] think to try this?" He's like, "I don't

[01:53:46] know. Uh maybe alcohol was involved. I

[01:53:49] don't know." But like that worked and we

[01:53:51] started catching fish the rest of the

[01:53:52] day. So it just got me thinking like

[01:53:55] entrepreneurship is this massive ocean

[01:53:57] with millions of varieties of fish,

[01:53:59] billions of fish, some sharks, some

[01:54:01] minnows. And so many of us go out there

[01:54:04] and we cast a few times and we just go

[01:54:05] back home. We're like, "Entreneurship

[01:54:06] doesn't work. It's not for me. Back to

[01:54:08] the 9 to5." But we're not testing enough

[01:54:10] stuff. There's different depths. There's

[01:54:12] different baits. We could spray

[01:54:14] something on it to make it smell

[01:54:15] different. We could put a McDonald's

[01:54:16] straw on it. And occasionally we'll find

[01:54:18] something. We'll get a bite. And maybe

[01:54:20] we won't get another bite for another

[01:54:22] hour, but the bite is a signal. And it's

[01:54:23] like, oh, there's something there. Okay,

[01:54:26] let's try that again, but try this. Or

[01:54:27] maybe let's just cast a 100 more times.

[01:54:29] And then you get a fish. And then you

[01:54:30] get a bigger fish. And like the more

[01:54:32] you're out there, not just focusing on

[01:54:34] one type of fishing, but increasing your

[01:54:37] surface area and trying all kinds of

[01:54:38] different things, the more you learn.

[01:54:41] Like the more you you test and like now

[01:54:43] you have a bunch of sharks in the boat

[01:54:44] and you have this and you have this and

[01:54:45] you have all these options at your

[01:54:47] disposal. We're eating shark tonight.

[01:54:48] We're eating grouper. We're eating

[01:54:49] snapper. You have this amazing life

[01:54:52] that's dynamic and full of color and all

[01:54:53] these other awesome things are coming

[01:54:55] into play because you stayed out there

[01:54:57] and you didn't just do one thing, you

[01:54:59] tried all these other things. So that's

[01:55:01] how I look at business. Like I'm out

[01:55:02] there on the ocean testing other things

[01:55:04] and even if I don't catch anything, it's

[01:55:06] fun. And uh I think other people should

[01:55:08] try that too.

[01:55:10] A lot of people want sexy stuff, don't

[01:55:11] they? They want to build the next

[01:55:13] Facebook or they want to do the a chat

[01:55:15] GPT or the AI app that does this, that,

[01:55:17] and the other. Do you think that's in

[01:55:20] part a trap for for the average person

[01:55:22] to be aiming at sexy? Yeah. Because the

[01:55:25] fact that everyone wants sexy means the

[01:55:27] fact that the sexy things are the most

[01:55:28] competitive. It's the exact reason why

[01:55:31] we should go as unsexy as possible

[01:55:33] because no one's looking at it.

[01:55:37] And looking forward, Chris, what is um

[01:55:39] is there anything that you're mulling

[01:55:41] over now in terms of new business ideas

[01:55:42] that you could give me?

[01:55:44] >> Man, I lately it's been about like stuff

[01:55:47] I can launch with my content. Um I like

[01:55:50] I love the phrase unfair advantage,

[01:55:53] right? I will only start businesses

[01:55:55] today where I have an unfair advantage.

[01:55:58] Everyone has an unfair advantage in

[01:56:00] something, right? Even a a 13-year-old

[01:56:02] has an unfair advantage. they might know

[01:56:04] roadblocks better than anyone, right? So

[01:56:07] unfair advantage is not, you know, only

[01:56:09] for the rich or the wealthy or the elite

[01:56:10] or the most experienced or the PhDs,

[01:56:12] right? So I try to start businesses

[01:56:15] where I have an unfair advantage and

[01:56:16] that might be because I can grow it with

[01:56:18] my content. It might be because I have a

[01:56:20] bunch of friends in that space or I have

[01:56:21] a unique knowledge or insight into that

[01:56:23] space. So if I have a zillion ideas and

[01:56:26] a spreadsheet a mile long with a bunch

[01:56:28] of business ideas, the ones I'm most

[01:56:30] likely to start are the ones where I

[01:56:31] have an unfair advantage. a right to

[01:56:33] win.

[01:56:33] >> Yeah.

[01:56:35] >> I have this phrase called mirage

[01:56:36] opportunity

[01:56:38] >> which um which I use when I look at an

[01:56:42] industry that never seems to work for

[01:56:45] anybody but seems so obvious.

[01:56:47] >> Mhm.

[01:56:48] >> Do you know what I'm saying?

[01:56:48] >> Yeah, I do. I'm thinking of something.

[01:56:50] Yeah. And I this has been a bit of a a

[01:56:52] way for me to know what not to work on

[01:56:54] is if I see everybody trying to solve

[01:56:56] this particular problem and nobody's

[01:56:58] been successful yet more and more people

[01:56:59] are plowing in and yet it seems obvious

[01:57:00] to me I just stay away from it

[01:57:02] >> because there's something in my

[01:57:05] understanding of consumer behavior or

[01:57:08] current alternatives that I'm like

[01:57:10] misunderstanding.

[01:57:11] >> Mhm. An example I'll give you.

[01:57:14] Everyone at the moment is trying to

[01:57:16] start a So this is the first the sort of

[01:57:19] first principles they're reasoning up

[01:57:20] from. They're saying people are more

[01:57:21] lonely than ever before. They're saying

[01:57:25] there's no clear place to organize a

[01:57:28] group of people. WhatsApp has its um has

[01:57:31] its limitations, its restrictions,

[01:57:33] doesn't have the feature set one would

[01:57:34] like. Facebook groups aren't working for

[01:57:36] a certain generation of people anymore

[01:57:38] for for sort of Gen Z's and younger

[01:57:39] generations, millennials. So, what I'm

[01:57:41] going to do is I'm going to make an app

[01:57:43] for groups. Mhm. Your run club, your

[01:57:46] friends, your piano recital group, your

[01:57:49] your entrepreneurs. We're going to build

[01:57:50] all the group features into this app and

[01:57:52] it's going to be dedicated to that. I've

[01:57:54] heard this pitch over and over again.

[01:57:55] I've seen all of them. None of them seem

[01:57:57] to have any traction or work.

[01:57:58] >> It's a mirage. Something fundamental

[01:58:00] about your assumptions is off.

[01:58:02] >> Yeah. When I said mirage opportunities,

[01:58:05] did you think of anything in particular?

[01:58:06] >> I stay away Yeah. Just I stay away from

[01:58:09] businesses where where I I don't know

[01:58:11] why it's not working, but clearly it's

[01:58:12] not working.

[01:58:13] >> Yeah. I think of banking or healthcare,

[01:58:15] right? Like banking is terrible. Like

[01:58:17] look at the UI at Bank of America. It's

[01:58:18] why is it it's like h it's probably like

[01:58:21] that for a reason, right? Or like

[01:58:23] Amazon's UI is terrible. It's like what

[01:58:24] is it? It's like they probably know why

[01:58:26] it looks like that, right? I assume

[01:58:28] they're smarter than I am. One idea that

[01:58:29] I thought of is like everyone hates

[01:58:31] typing in their password a zillion times

[01:58:32] a day. So you have like these password

[01:58:34] managers, but I've seen a dozen

[01:58:36] companies that are like going to fix the

[01:58:37] password, right? Some like replacement

[01:58:40] to a password and they've all failed and

[01:58:42] it's probably because it's it's a really

[01:58:43] hard problem to solve and I don't want

[01:58:45] to try to invest in a person that's

[01:58:46] trying to solve it cuz statistics are

[01:58:48] not on their side. Another one that

[01:58:50] comes to mind for me is at university

[01:58:52] every entrepreneurial college kid

[01:58:54] decides that they're going to build a

[01:58:55] onampus what's going on app to let

[01:58:58] everybody know what's going on on

[01:58:59] campus.

[01:59:00] >> Yeah.

[01:59:00] >> And they never seem to work.

[01:59:02] >> Yeah. And I think the reason why they

[01:59:04] don't work is because both you're losing

[01:59:06] 33% of your potential customers every

[01:59:08] year and gaining 33% new customers every

[01:59:10] year. So you have a bit of an

[01:59:11] acquisition problem, but then also

[01:59:12] people don't decide what they're going

[01:59:14] to do based on some notice board. They

[01:59:15] decide based on their dorm room friends

[01:59:18] and where they're going and where the

[01:59:19] girl they like is going.

[01:59:20] >> And you and so it's not really about

[01:59:22] what's going on. It's like what does my

[01:59:24] group of people want to do. I think

[01:59:25] that's I think that's the mirage in

[01:59:28] that. Well, I thought of another example

[01:59:30] that's like building apps around

[01:59:32] podcasting.

[01:59:33] >> Oh my god. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:59:34] >> I have a friend that he had a podcast.

[01:59:36] >> It's a great one.

[01:59:37] >> That helped podcasters, right? And it

[01:59:39] was great. Like really I listen to it

[01:59:42] and he he realized over time like I'm

[01:59:44] selling to a market that quits, right?

[01:59:47] I'm asking for customers to pay for my

[01:59:49] thing that are statistically like 95% of

[01:59:51] them are going to quit within 6 months.

[01:59:53] So it's just a broken market to sell to.

[01:59:56] And then the 5% that are successful,

[01:59:58] what percentage of them are actually

[01:59:59] profitable? What percentage of them can

[02:00:01] afford to pay for an expensive agency or

[02:00:03] software? Very few

[02:00:07] mirage opportunities. I like that. I I

[02:00:10] would Yeah, it's a it's been a really

[02:00:11] useful framework because it's the

[02:00:13] obvious ones that no one's doing, but

[02:00:14] there's clearly a huge opportunity that

[02:00:16] I think pulls people in the most. But

[02:00:19] for me now with the with the amount of

[02:00:21] time I've spent starting businesses,

[02:00:23] those are the ones that push me away the

[02:00:25] most.

[02:00:25] >> Yeah. Well, it all comes back to the

[02:00:27] value of just copying what's already

[02:00:29] working.

[02:00:30] >> Amen. Is there anything we haven't

[02:00:32] talked about that we should have talked

[02:00:32] about, Chris? For young and old people

[02:00:35] that are considering starting their own

[02:00:37] business, their own side hustle,

[02:00:39] building passive income.

[02:00:42] Many of the people that think they want

[02:00:43] to be an entrepreneur, they just like

[02:00:45] the idea of it and they think there's

[02:00:47] freedom in entrepreneurship when

[02:00:49] oftentimes it's even more of a prison

[02:00:50] than their 9 to5. [laughter]

[02:00:52] >> It can be at least in the first years,

[02:00:54] not months, not years, sometimes

[02:00:56] decades, right? And so I want people to

[02:00:59] answer the question for themselves. Is

[02:01:01] this for me? So they don't regret.

[02:01:05] They need to find out if they love the

[02:01:06] idea of it or they like the actual

[02:01:08] day-to-day grind of it. um because they

[02:01:11] they probably won't, but I want them to

[02:01:14] find out.

[02:01:15] >> Such an important point because the

[02:01:17] narrative online at the moment is, you

[02:01:18] know, be your own boss, etc., etc. And I

[02:01:21] I just I don't think people I'm speaking

[02:01:24] for myself here. I don't want to speak

[02:01:25] for you, but I don't think people

[02:01:26] realize how many people I have to answer

[02:01:28] to.

[02:01:28] >> Oh, yeah.

[02:01:28] >> I have all of my team members, which is

[02:01:30] hundreds of people. Then I have my

[02:01:31] investors. I have my suppliers, my

[02:01:33] clients. So, it's not like I'm living as

[02:01:36] a free man.

[02:01:37] >> Yeah. I'm less free now than I was

[02:01:40] before.

[02:01:41] >> Yeah.

[02:01:42] >> When I started all this stuff,

[02:01:43] >> isn't it nice when someone just also

[02:01:45] just tells you what to do and exactly

[02:01:47] what path to take?

[02:01:48] >> Yeah.

[02:01:48] >> Like my wife does that. She's like,

[02:01:50] "Hey, I need you to do this." It's like,

[02:01:52] "Oh, it's so nice. I don't have to like

[02:01:54] think like thank you." You know, so I

[02:01:56] have bosses in other areas of my life

[02:01:58] and it's really nice. Like there's

[02:01:59] something to be said for a 9 to5. And

[02:02:01] some people have no desire to even test

[02:02:03] an entrepreneurship. Great. All power to

[02:02:04] you, but I want people to test it. And I

[02:02:07] think, you know, people would look at

[02:02:08] someone like me or you and think, oh,

[02:02:10] you know, they've got total freedom. But

[02:02:12] this is just not the case. Even for me

[02:02:13] as a podcaster, you know, I'm now kind

[02:02:15] of somewhat

[02:02:17] constrained by the fact that I need to

[02:02:19] publish on a Monday and I need to

[02:02:20] publish on a Thursday and that means

[02:02:21] lots of other work takes place

[02:02:23] throughout the week and

[02:02:24] >> um I can't just go to Hawaii and chill

[02:02:26] out and spend a month off and then I've

[02:02:28] got all my clients now and the team

[02:02:29] members, etc. So, I'm I'm I think I'm

[02:02:32] starting a bit of a war against this

[02:02:33] idea that

[02:02:35] >> independence and total freedom.

[02:02:37] >> Yeah.

[02:02:38] >> Is both something to aim for but also

[02:02:40] like realistic

[02:02:42] >> when you're pursuing something you love.

[02:02:43] >> Yeah.

[02:02:44] >> I think a generation have been sold this

[02:02:45] idea of independence. And I don't think

[02:02:46] it's gotten us anywhere. Yeah.

[02:02:47] >> Like that. That's the goal. Freedom,

[02:02:49] independence. Don't depend on anybody.

[02:02:50] >> Right. But when I look on your your

[02:02:52] life, you've got four kids, you've got

[02:02:55] lots of responsibility, you've got

[02:02:56] employees, you've got businesses, you've

[02:02:59] got so much dependency

[02:03:02] and that's probably the source of much

[02:03:03] of your happiness.

[02:03:04] >> Yeah, exactly. My quote of this year is

[02:03:07] there are no solutions, only trade-offs.

[02:03:10] >> Entrepreneurship is not a solution.

[02:03:12] You're trading something for it. The

[02:03:13] question is, is that trade-off worth it

[02:03:15] or not? And we won't know until we try

[02:03:17] it.

[02:03:18] >> And what's the trade-off you're making?

[02:03:20] stability, um, lack of volatility. Um,

[02:03:25] yeah, predictability. My life has been

[02:03:27] volatile and unpredictable. Um, but the

[02:03:29] more I do it, the more predictable it

[02:03:31] becomes in a good way. Uh, but that's

[02:03:33] been the trade-off is the mental load of

[02:03:36] not knowing where my paycheck's coming

[02:03:39] from or if it's coming at all.

[02:03:42] >> It's not for the faint-hearted.

[02:03:44] >> No.

[02:03:46] Chris, we have a closing tradition where

[02:03:48] the last guest leaves a question for the

[02:03:49] next not knowing who they're leaving it

[02:03:50] for. And the question left for you, I

[02:03:52] love this question for obvious reasons,

[02:03:53] is during your interview with Steven

[02:03:55] today, what is one thing he did that you

[02:03:57] genuinely appreciated.

[02:04:04] I would say that I

[02:04:10] I appreciate that the questions you

[02:04:12] asked me got me to look at the things

[02:04:17] I've been looking at in one way

[02:04:18] completely differently. I came into this

[02:04:20] conversation,

[02:04:23] you know, looking at things in a

[02:04:25] specific way in in ways that I always

[02:04:26] have, but your questions got me to

[02:04:28] approach it from a different angle. um

[02:04:31] that made me learn something more about

[02:04:34] my own story, if you will.

[02:04:37] >> And what was that in particular? Was

[02:04:39] there a specific thing you're you're

[02:04:41] thinking about?

[02:04:42] >> Maybe just the overall framework that

[02:04:47] maybe it's just recency biased, but

[02:04:52] just that it's it's not for everyone.

[02:04:55] It's not for everyone. Um, and that we

[02:04:59] just need to learn if the trade-offs are

[02:05:00] worth it.

[02:05:02] >> There's an element of your personal

[02:05:04] trauma, experiences, upbringing,

[02:05:07] insecurities, toxic fuel that makes the

[02:05:10] trade-offs worth it makes you in some

[02:05:13] respect unreasonable,

[02:05:14] >> unrealistic, willing to take the risk.

[02:05:17] And we don't talk about that enough

[02:05:18] because we're not able to go into

[02:05:19] people's trauma and the nuance of their

[02:05:21] life and childhood and what their dad

[02:05:22] said to them and what the how they were

[02:05:24] bullied

[02:05:24] >> to be able to like

[02:05:27] trans transmit into their mind to make

[02:05:29] that to figure that out for themselves.

[02:05:31] But I think probably is in both your

[02:05:33] life and my life. I mean you we both I

[02:05:35] think have ADHD to some degree and we

[02:05:38] have a brainwire in a certain way. So

[02:05:40] it's not it can seem like we're making a

[02:05:43] choice but I it often doesn't feel like

[02:05:46] that for me.

[02:05:47] >> Doesn't feel like I'm making a choice.

[02:05:48] It feels like there is no other choice.

[02:05:50] >> Yeah.

[02:05:50] >> In the same way that one might make a

[02:05:52] choice to get a 9 toive job.

[02:05:55] >> I have I I I think for me that would be

[02:05:58] a terrible thing.

[02:05:59] >> Yeah.

[02:05:59] >> And vice versa probably.

[02:06:01] >> Yeah. Well, what you just said just

[02:06:03] brought up a memory. I don't know if

[02:06:04] it's relevant to this or not, but you

[02:06:06] said ADHD. When I was in undergrad, I

[02:06:08] got tested for ADHD. And the

[02:06:11] psychiatrist said, um, it was a big

[02:06:14] report. I'm summarizing it to the only

[02:06:16] sentence that I remember, but she said

[02:06:18] that I just had delusions of grandeur,

[02:06:21] right? Uh, it wasn't like an official

[02:06:23] diagnosis. It was one line in like an

[02:06:25] eight-page document, but I saw that just

[02:06:27] like bounce off the page and I was like,

[02:06:30] how do you know that's a delusion?

[02:06:32] Right? Like it's only a delusion if

[02:06:34] enough time has passed so we could look

[02:06:35] back and say, "Yeah, he was wrong. He

[02:06:37] was way off base."

[02:06:38] >> By delusions of grandeur, what does she

[02:06:41] mean?

[02:06:41] >> She means like I had unrealist

[02:06:44] unrealistic expectations about how my

[02:06:46] life would turn out. Um, and that that

[02:06:49] was causing strife in my personal

[02:06:51] relationships.

[02:06:53] And I thought it was wrong. I still

[02:06:55] think it was wrong. But it it put a chip

[02:06:57] on my shoulder. It planted a seed that I

[02:06:59] never forgot. I have that printed. It's

[02:07:01] in my my drawer at work. Um,

[02:07:03] >> what does he say?

[02:07:05] >> Just I just have like literally the

[02:07:07] report that she gave me back in 2009.

[02:07:10] Uh, it's like highlighted and drawn up

[02:07:12] in in my in my drawer at work and I just

[02:07:14] look at it sometimes for motivation

[02:07:15] because what what is a delusion of

[02:07:18] grandeur? Like I have plans of grandeur.

[02:07:20] This is a plan. Um, and so I think about

[02:07:23] her sometimes. She probably has no idea

[02:07:24] who I am. She probably forgot all about

[02:07:26] me. Uh

[02:07:29] >> if people want to learn more, where's

[02:07:31] the best place they should go to to

[02:07:34] check your work out? You've got your

[02:07:35] podcast on YouTube.

[02:07:36] >> Mhm.

[02:07:37] >> Um it's not necessarily a podcast in the

[02:07:38] same way that this is a podcast. It's

[02:07:40] much more sort of practical and specific

[02:07:42] around specific subject matter. So I

[02:07:43] highly recommend people go check that

[02:07:44] out. I'm going to link it below and put

[02:07:46] it on the screen. But where else?

[02:07:47] Where's a good place to get in touch

[02:07:48] with you or to consume your work?

[02:07:50] >> Probably tkopod.com

[02:07:53] as in

[02:07:53] >> tkopod.com. The kerner office. It's just

[02:07:55] like my main website.

[02:07:58] >> And people can sign up here for your

[02:08:00] newsletter.

[02:08:00] >> A newsletter. Yep.

[02:08:02] >> One email per week.

[02:08:03] >> What do you send out?

[02:08:05] >> Like a very tactical guide on how to

[02:08:07] start X, Y, or Z business. And I ask my

[02:08:10] audience like what they want to learn

[02:08:11] about. So they tell me and then I dive

[02:08:13] deep and then break it all down for

[02:08:15] them. I'll link that as well below for

[02:08:16] anyone that's interested. What is the

[02:08:18] most popular, most frequent request you

[02:08:21] get through that website

[02:08:22] >> on business ideas to talk about? Yeah,

[02:08:25] >> probably the AI agency, the AI

[02:08:29] implementation agency idea that I talked

[02:08:31] about.

[02:08:31] >> And what is the most viral video you've

[02:08:33] ever made?

[02:08:34] >> Oh man, that was about a um just this

[02:08:38] Chinese street vendor that sold ice

[02:08:41] cream. She had this little uh

[02:08:43] contraption. It was like a frozen

[02:08:45] cylinder that she poured cream over and

[02:08:47] it would scrape off ice cream in this

[02:08:50] really visually appealing way. And so I

[02:08:52] I basically broke down in 30 seconds

[02:08:54] like you could pay $200 for this, you

[02:08:57] could post it at any given street corner

[02:08:59] and you could make $1,000 by the end of

[02:09:00] the day. So it's like A B C here's how

[02:09:03] to get to this revenue. Um and like 30

[02:09:06] or 40 million people saw it.

[02:09:07] >> I'll put the uh the video on the screen

[02:09:09] for anyone that's interested in that as

[02:09:10] well, just so you know what this ice

[02:09:12] cream contraption is.

[02:09:13] >> Yeah.

[02:09:14] >> Chris, thank you so much.

[02:09:15] >> Thank you so much for for being yourself

[02:09:16] in every respect. You teach me that

[02:09:19] there's many ways to skin a cat. As the

[02:09:20] saying goes, there's many ways to become

[02:09:22] successful, to be happy, to be motivated

[02:09:23] in your life. There's many ways to

[02:09:24] become a millionaire. Some of it bucks

[02:09:26] sort of conventional wisdom of how to

[02:09:27] grow a business. I think that is

[02:09:29] actually liberating to know that your

[02:09:31] own unique wiring and your own unique

[02:09:33] perspective and a guy can drive you to

[02:09:36] the same outcome of financial freedom if

[02:09:38] you do have the self-awareness, if

[02:09:40] you're willing to work hard and if you

[02:09:41] can cope with the opinions of others.

[02:09:44] Um, and also if you're willing to

[02:09:46] sacrifice tremendously, because you have

[02:09:47] sacrificed tremendously, and especially

[02:09:48] as someone as a man that has a young man

[02:09:51] that has four kids, you've taken on your

[02:09:53] shoulders a huge amount of risk. And I

[02:09:55] applaud you for both simplifying and

[02:09:57] demystifying the pursuit of side hustles

[02:10:00] and business and entrepreneurship for so

[02:10:01] many people because I think um, in the

[02:10:04] world we live in, it's probably going to

[02:10:05] become more and more important that

[02:10:06] people have more options. Agreed. um in

[02:10:09] a world of AI and if Elon Musk is to be

[02:10:11] successful in creating the age of

[02:10:13] abundance that he's describing, then uh

[02:10:15] maybe we're all going to end up as

[02:10:16] entrepreneurs. Who knows? Who knows?

[02:10:18] Thanks. Thank you. Thank you as well.

[02:10:21] [music]

[02:10:24] >> Make sure you keep what I'm about to say

[02:10:25] to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you

[02:10:28] to come even deeper into the D of a CEO.

[02:10:30] Welcome to my inner circle. This is a

[02:10:33] brand new private community that I'm

[02:10:35] launching to the world. We have so many

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[02:10:41] are on my iPad when I'm recording the

[02:10:43] conversation. We have clips we've never

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[02:10:55] You can tell us what you want this show

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[02:11:00] love us to have. But remember, for now,

[02:11:02] we're only inviting the first 10,000

[02:11:04] people that join before it closes. So,

[02:11:07] if you want to join our private closed

[02:11:08] community, head to the link in the

[02:11:09] description below or go to

[02:11:10] daccircle.com.

[02:11:14] I will speak to you then.

[02:11:19] [music]

[02:11:28] Heat. Heat.

[02:11:31] [music]

[02:11:38] >> [music]

[02:11:39] [singing]