# Palantir CEO Alex Karp: AI Fears, Rise of the Far Right & Germany's Crisis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm0rGvvxVOM

[00:04] [music]
[00:23] Good morning Alex.
[00:25] We are sitting here in the middle of the mountains of Idaho.
[00:29] Near you in your beautiful house.
[00:32] I remember very well when we met for the first time.
[00:36] It was in 2003.
[00:39] It was at a party in southern France.
[00:43] And somebody introduced you to me preparing me by saying Alex Karpis is a super interesting guy.
[00:51] He studied at the Goethe University in Frankfurt.
[00:54] Jürgen Habermas was his professor.
[00:56] He's an intellectual.
[00:58] Unfortunately, he has no job.
[01:00] Uh penniless, but an interesting guy.
[01:03] We met.
[01:03] We got along very well and I had
[01:05] The feeling this is a guy who is rather on the left side of the political spectrum.
[01:10] A very intellectual personality.
[01:13] Cares a lot about the state of democracy, about individual rights.
[01:17] And [clears throat] today this guy has launched one of the most successful companies of recent business since history, Palantir.
[01:28] Market cap currently north of 300 billion.
[01:34] And suddenly people are describing you like a kind of Darth Vader.
[01:39] Uh a sinister figure of far right-wing ideologies and almost like a warmonger.
[01:50] Please tell me what happened?
[01:52] Did you change?
[01:54] Well, first of all, that that that the thing is Palantir is a hundred more ex-fans and and and people who describe me that way.
[02:03] In fact, my personal experience,
[02:06] Including in Germany,
[02:07] Including and especially in Germany, is
[02:10] You you
[02:11] The media version, and I'll get to that,
[02:13] Is yeah, something like, you know,
[02:16] Bringing war to peace times or
[02:18] Something.
[02:19] [laughter]
[02:20] Um
[02:21] But the actual
[02:23] Rational human being on the street is a Palantir fan.
[02:27] Uh part of our success
[02:30] There's the product side,
[02:32] Um which we could talk about.
[02:34] There's also like plus wait, every single person in Silicon Valley who finances things would cut off their right arm to have the fans we have.
[02:43] And their and your left arm.
[02:45] So, but there there there there there's many many things in your question, and I remember meeting you too and thinking, oh, this is a really interesting person.
[02:53] Um and you know, well, how does somebody who studies music end up running
[03:00] What I mean, for those who are not in the German-speaking world,
[03:04] It's funny, outside the German-speaking
[03:06] World, people do not understand the impact of Axel Springer.
[03:10] Um, and it which Axel Springer Verlag, which you it's you know, it's easy to say you run, but it's it's different, you know, in Germany, there really aren't that many I can't think of any other Eigentümer someone who owns a significant stake in the company that's also running it.
[03:30] So, it's a very very unusual setup.
[03:32] It's it's more similar to America, but then we don't have essentially a second-generation business run by uh an owner.
[03:43] So, even in America, that the whole setup is very very unusual.
[03:46] Uh and then, you know, yeah, I mean, what I think uh bound us together from beginning is you're your it it it doesn't translate well to English but a music scientist.
[03:57] So we don't really have science and music and I guess in America but it sounds kind of fake even though I'm sure there is a faculty that but in any case um uh.
[04:06] That's a very unusual setup on your end.
[04:09] Yeah, we are both outsiders.
[04:11] That's absolutely true.
[04:13] And we both are polarizing.
[04:14] That's also fair to say.
[04:16] I just tried to get it why a person that I met almost a quarter century ago and whom I've met during that time very regularly and I did not observe any change in your worldview or in your personality.
[04:33] And now the description of you, the outside picture of you, is in sharp contrast.
[04:37] Yeah, let me let me let me ask answer the question and it's the exact right framing, but I still want to push back on uh it there's almost no one else in tech, maybe one or two, that were who has anything like the fans I have.
[04:54] So it's there's this both the outside kind of I would say especially in your much less so here version of me Palantir Peter which is exactly what you described, but I I just want to also highlight the dynamic that
[05:07] These people also create fans.
[05:10] Like whenever I do something I'm basically only talk to Germany through you now.
[05:14] And I get hate but I would say a hundred times more fans writing hey could you please thank you for helping Germany.
[05:22] Especially young people who are want to do things in Germany as an example.
[05:26] So any case but let me get to let me answer your question directly without the caveat.
[05:33] Um but I do think there's a European and American difference here but our products PG um changed the course of history by reducing basically.
[05:44] I mean there have been minor terror attacks, and terror attacks can always happen.
[05:50] But, since we launched the product, you have it has stopped hundreds and hundreds of terror attacks.
[05:56] But, Alex, would you then simply describe the mission of Palantir, what you think Palantir is to doing to society?
[06:03] What is the mission in order to help people to decide whether they
[06:08] Should feel safe or not?
[06:09] Well, again, but I let me just answer the I'm trying to get to the question you're asking, which is a really deep question.
[06:15] Why would people want to portray us so inaccurately?
[06:18] Is my version of the question.
[06:20] And I think there's a functional reason for that.
[06:24] And the function there it's really twofold, and I here I'm going to use Europe as an example.
[06:29] One, the products works too well, so people can afford it.
[06:31] The terror attacks in Europe have basically been reduced to something that's not something people are afraid of, even though there are way too many attacks on the streets, especially of Germany, and that but people view it as an immigration problem, not as a terror problem, right or wrong.
[06:44] And two, our products play a significant role in Ukraine.
[06:47] So, Russia and Russia doesn't appear to be winning.
[06:50] So, I I think the setup to to to answer the Palantir attack thing, especially in Europe, you also have to say, why can Europe Why does Europe believe they can afford to attack Palantir?
[07:02] And I'm telling you, the primary reason is cuz And this is a Palantir problem.
[07:06] Our products were well
[07:08] Were powerful enough that people believe they can afford it, which is again, okay.
[07:14] So, then what it what?
[07:18] And so, like so, then you the so, that's I think the backdrop.
[07:20] Then, why would you want to perceive us that way?
[07:22] And then I do think there's a European and American difference, and it basically comes down to America is hyper-charging AI and tech, and has these phenomenal.
[07:32] And that that's where I do think the reason why you're kind of a bridge between America and Europe.
[07:36] There are lots of reasons, but one of them is you look more like an an business person, like you own the company.
[07:43] This is a big like that's a banality, but it's also true.
[07:48] And if you are saying like essentially just take a neutral example, American businesses versus European businesses.
[07:55] American businesses believe they're at war all the time.
[07:58] So if you show up with a product that is demonstrably better on all scores in America and in Europe, you're going to have a very different reception.
[08:09] America, it's going to.
[08:10] It's not going to be I like or do not like the person.
[08:13] Although most your American businesses love pound you.
[08:17] But it's going to be how does it work?
[08:19] Why does it work?
[08:21] Does it transform my business?
[08:24] Does the technology work?
[08:26] Is the technology stealing my IP?
[08:29] And in Europe, you can't really afford to ask these questions or they're not being asked correctly because the answer to the question will be some significant part of that infrastructure is going to have to be imported from America.
[08:41] I mean you have described me many times that your main goal, your mission is to protect democracy.
[08:48] And that's what you are doing, I think quite efficiently.
[08:52] Nevertheless, the debate in Europe is mainly these guys are collaborating with the American secret service.
[08:59] That's bad.
[09:02] That's dangerous.
[09:05] What do we get wrong?
[09:07] I mean to work with the secret service of democracy to protect democracy, I think is a good thing.
[09:09] But why why is that perceived?
[09:11] Problematic?
[09:14] Boycotting Palantir and portray you as a force of evil, although you are obviously on the side of democracies.
[09:24] I just — but nobody sees it that way outside of you.
[09:27] I mean, we have Europe that's a widespread sentiment in Europe.
[09:31] And if the point — the point I would say to especially Germany, where I care, is that really the wide sentiment is that — that is, I think that's way downstream of very bad decision-making.
[09:45] So, they perceive Palantir — by the way, again, I really, really deeply believe that they — here are the professional media, left-of-center politicians, people who equate Peter and me with an old version of Germany, which they do not want.
[10:01] And that the vast majority of Germans — the vast majority of Germans would prefer a world where the decision-making was rational enough so you could evaluate Palantir in a rational way.
[10:11] That that's what I believe.
[10:13] Are you rather
[10:14] Let me let me just get to the but
[10:17] But the the the technical point that I think is very important is the decision-making is objectively wrong.
[10:25] From the perspective of how would you protect the data?
[10:30] You need an application layer.
[10:33] And so the crazy thing about what's happening in Europe is we have the only industrial industrial user application layer in the world.
[10:39] That application layer protects your data from being essentially abused by law large language model providers.
[10:46] So, what you have in Europe are technically illiterate bureaucrats that in the name of protecting their people from a company they don't like because they don't like basically what Peter and I represent, which in my view is actually old-school European values.
[11:03] Old-school European values mean the products are the best in the world and they actually are morally superior because of the competence involved.
[11:11] And every single one of our products is like
[11:12] That. Those products cannot touch.
[11:16] So, you're framing it as a moral thing.
[11:18] I'm saying the moral thing is way downstream of the competence problem.
[11:22] And if you were to solve the if you were to solve the competence problem in tech in Europe, which is the bigger problem.
[11:29] Europe is It's a relevant market for Palantir except for that I care.
[11:33] But the main accusation is data surveillance.
[11:38] Palantir is a form of espionage, and the most aggressive term was you are techno-fascists.
[11:45] You are rather on the side of data surveillance, or are you rather on the side of Well, first of all, data protection The most interesting, like, fascinating thing, if it wasn't said, and and very very childish, is the products we provide.
[12:08] PG, for which is what she used in the police forces and intel services in Europe.
[12:12] Foundry.
[12:16] Ontology, which is used in the Ukraine, and ontology is essentially a application layer.
[12:23] These products are the products you will need, and the only ones available at scale that I'm aware of, to stop what people mean by surveillance.
[12:31] What do we mean by what what what should Europe mean by surveillance?
[12:36] What it should mean is the IP, the indigenous know-how that still powers Europe, gets migrated to a different company in a company that's not European, that has no interest in Europe, that is not going to protect you to the rights, meaning your right to privacy, your right to that data being purged.
[12:55] Also, your right to have I mean, in Europe, one of the things I've always embraced is in America, we have rights that are basically moral rights.
[13:03] In Europe, you have economic rights, and they're intertwined, which is always the vexing discussion.
[13:08] So, the vexing discussion between America and Europe is, from the American perspective, you don't protect rights enough vis-a-vis your government.
[13:14] So, Europe No European
[13:16] country has anything like a First or Second Amendment.
[13:20] That's vexing.
[13:20] And the Fourth Amendment in Europe is probably the closest in America's closest to what you have, meaning the right to privacy.
[13:27] But even there, without going into technical details, we have widely divergent ideas of how to do that.
[13:33] Basic and so and then the vexing thing from a European perspective is Americans have all these rights vis-a-vis the government, but you have no right of protection vis-a-vis companies and there are basically you have a right to succeed or fail here.
[13:45] You don't have a right to economic justice.
[13:49] I mean, that's maybe something people want politically, but in the Constitution that is not enshrined.
[13:55] So, you have a completely different idea of rights.
[13:58] I actually am a classic progressive.
[14:00] I'm more I'm I'm still American in that I I like my first, second, and fourth amendment, but I would like to see a better treatment for poor.
[14:10] Okay, so still describe yourself as a progressive, correct?
[14:12] Oh, I I would describe myself as one of the few last standing actual progressives in that I believe Well,
[14:19] First of all, I'm willing to defend the rights of someone I don't like.
[14:22] Okay, that somehow has gone and again, it's particularly gone in Europe.
[14:27] Like, they frame this as I don't like you.
[14:28] That — how is that relevant?
[14:30] Like, why do we moralize everything?
[14:32] Also, it is about Germans who have been very successful in America in the Silicon Valley, Peter Thiel, uh, Tobi Lütke, Schindler, Philip Schindler.
[14:45] So, there are a couple of Germans who made impressive careers in the Silicon Valley and we in Europe and in Germany do so far not really take advantage of it, but first we moralize.
[14:54] We say, "Well, there must be something — well, there's, there's, there's, there's a difference in like — I mean, as a generalization, Germany is a very Lutheran culture and we're a Calvinist culture.
[15:09] So, that like we equate success with being — like the Swiss are Calvinist, the Dutch are Calvinist, but as a generalization, I would say Europe in general and Germany, obviously in particular, is.
[15:20] A Lutheran culture where Lutheran culture tends to view massive success you've acquired during your lifetime with great skepticism.
[15:31] Calvinist, we're like peak Calvinism.
[15:33] Maybe we even take it too far where we ascribe financial success to moral success.
[15:40] Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
[15:44] The way I tend to want to frame the question is but the excess in Europe immoralizing more moralizing is clearly in my view downstream from not wanting to solve the problems.
[15:58] And then I think Palantir is the archetypical example.
[16:03] You can say basically against all technical evidence that Palantir are techno-fascist.
[16:08] What would that mean and that we're engaged in surveillance when our products are actually the ones that stopped that?
[16:14] Or you can ask the more serious question, what has gone wrong in our culture that we have no other application layer that would allow us to?
[16:21] Do this.
[16:22] Probably the most impactful and successful German of recent decades is Peter Thiel.
[16:26] You know him well.
[16:29] He was the co-founder of Palantir.
[16:30] Is he an anti-democrat?
[16:33] Is he a religious fanatic?
[16:34] Could you — No, I mean, I so actually the way I would reframe the beginning of the question is I think my treatment in Germany is it's not what it should be, but it's honestly, given that how much money I've made, fairer than you could think.
[16:52] I think the treatment of Peter is atrocious.
[16:54] Um.
[16:55] Why?
[16:55] Well, first of all, again, it's one of the things I really — you're, you're — I would start with again, and it's a very German concept.
[17:05] See, again, I think what is happening, what, what scares me a lot in Germany is it's an importation of a version of America on top of German ideals that are of kind of are attenuated, um, and uh, and so.
[17:22] The real question to ask is, I think, the question historically one would have asked in Germany is, can we afford this?
[17:31] Can we afford not to learn from this person?
[17:33] And I think that's the right question Germany has asked.
[17:35] Well, I make a point and could say, well, it depends on where the person stands with regard to values.
[17:43] So, if somebody is intrinsically anti-democratic or has a leaning towards authoritarian, first of all, it's a different thing than this person, I think, should go, should not be a role model.
[17:52] A question is here, is it a misunderstanding of the person or is there a point?
[17:55] No, no.
[17:56] I'm going to, first of all, it is a misunderstanding, it's not true, but I'm sure I'm going to push back on that.
[18:01] Mhm.
[18:01] I don't, I, you can, I am reading books on Deng Xiaoping.
[18:06] I read a book on, I'm reading books on Mao.
[18:09] I've read a lot of books on, I learn, I've, I'm learning a lot from Mao and Deng Xiaoping.
[18:16] I don't agree with Mao on anything.
[18:18] Like so, like I don't believe anyone can afford not to learn.
[18:21] And I, and if you're in a very bad
[18:22] Situation, let's just take an obvious example, the German tech scene.
[18:27] The German tech scene should be the number two in the world.
[18:30] By any historical standard, honestly, the German tech scene was the number one in the world.
[18:35] So, number two is already like maybe shouldn't be the aspiration.
[18:37] It's on no one's list.
[18:39] You're one of the more successful investors in Germany.
[18:41] You know that you probably know successful companies in Germany, but the most largest company in Germany by market cap I think is Siemens and Palantir is significantly larger, even where we're obviously undervalued.
[18:55] So, currently.
[18:57] So, my first cut and you see this in this like where you, you know, you and I have been friends and we actually agree on the moral stuff pretty much one-to-one on pro-democracy, what does democracy mean, pro-data protection, alignment with the West.
[19:11] We should have an alliance that is those of us who don't agree, that alliance should be Western Europe, America, the Five Eyes, and Israel, and Japan, and Korea.
[19:20] So, we agree on those things.
[19:24] And many other things almost deckungsgleich, meaning with almost but where I think there is distance would be my approach, which is I would the first question I would ask is can can Germany afford not to learn from Peter, even if all those things were true.
[19:40] Now, you're right.
[19:42] It has It should be clarified.
[19:46] I I've known Peter since we were poor students at Stanford.
[19:49] Um we had conversations as like just poor students fighting about intellectual things.
[19:53] He was always heterodox right.
[19:55] I was always heterodox left.
[19:57] I don't think much has changed.
[19:59] He's still heterodox right, meaning he's very frustrating to classic Republicans.
[20:03] I he I He's never been a neocon.
[20:06] Like a lot of the thing He He He does He's never He actually does not really believe in classic uh Republican economic theory.
[20:16] Uh he was the first person to flag and so will always flag like in conversations you tend to have people on the right basically explaining all problems as the
[20:26] result of capitalism not being driven
[20:28] far enough. That's just not Peter's
[20:30] view. Uh he he's not he's not a
[20:33] simplistic or caricatured thinker on the
[20:35] right.
[20:36] Meaning and he's definitely not the
[20:38] caricature that the left wants to
[20:40] present. But what's fascinating to me is
[20:43] why is it so important to spend so much
[20:45] time
[20:47] uh blocking Peter from the German
[20:50] market. Forget Palantir. Like forget
[20:52] It's not like I want to help Germany cuz
[20:53] I care about Europe and because I have a
[20:56] I mean because of historical fa- family
[21:00] and also I just felt at home in Germany
[21:01] for a long time.
[21:03] Uh but
[21:04] but for me that's cuz like let me just
[21:07] reframe the moral thing.
[21:09] It's so obviously thin.
[21:11] What they're saying about him, what they
[21:13] say about Palantir, so obviously doesn't
[21:15] make sense on the merits. You only need
[21:16] 10 minutes, 5 minutes on Google to see
[21:18] this isn't true.
[21:20] Why do people want to and need to
[21:23] believe that truth? Was the question
[21:25] that I believe. And by the way, it's not
[21:27] that different. I mean, you're talking
[21:28] about Peter and me, I could ask you the
[21:30] same question. Like, I've known you for
[21:33] not as long as I've known Peter, but and
[21:34] you were very successful before I was.
[21:38] Um, I I mean, I don't the German
[21:40] non-German audience may not realize how
[21:42] Axel Springer is discussed. Okay, so
[21:45] like
[21:46] there I think there are very important
[21:48] political figures in Germany without
[21:50] naming names that see no difference
[21:52] between you and the right side of the
[21:55] AfD.
[21:56] Okay, it's absurd.
[21:58] I I I believe most of my left-wing
[22:01] friends in Germany think Axel Springer
[22:03] wakes up in the morning
[22:05] and tries to make the world worse and
[22:06] goes to bed with a smile when the world
[22:08] is worse. This obviously not true.
[22:11] What is your take actually on the rise
[22:12] of the AfD in Germany as somebody who
[22:14] has studied in Germany, speaks German,
[22:16] cares very much about the well-being of
[22:18] the country. We see now
[22:20] this kind of polarization of society,
[22:22] the very left and the far right are on
[22:24] the rise and the AfD, what is it for
[22:27] you? Is it a normal party or is it
[22:30] I I think the AfD is very complex and
[22:32] I'm not reading all the news all the
[22:34] time. I I I I give you
[22:36] um
[22:37] I I think first of all, the rise of the
[22:40] of extreme parties was super predictable
[22:43] and I may have been talk shouting about
[22:45] this for the last 10 years.
[22:47] You can't If you're going to bring in
[22:50] uh a doing wide square
[22:52] very deep and large migration into
[22:55] Germany without the buy-in of the German
[22:58] people and what without an honest
[23:00] discussion of the consequences. Again,
[23:03] I understand
[23:05] why this is hard to do in Germany and
[23:06] it's completely about history, which you
[23:09] know, if my family hadn't left Germany,
[23:12] I would be a lampshade. I mean, they
[23:14] left before the Holocaust. I'm very
[23:16] Everybody understands that and is
[23:18] sympathetic. But we haven't You have in
[23:20] Europe, but especially in Germany, just
[23:22] an impossibly
[23:25] difficult
[23:27] painful
[23:28] inability to talk about obvious facts.
[23:31] But the average person on the street is
[23:33] living with these facts, okay?
[23:34] You're avoiding my question. What do you
[23:35] think about the AfD?
[23:36] I was going to say keep
[23:37] No, no, as Palantir is
[23:39] No, no, I was going
[23:40] in Ukraine against Russia, the AfD is
[23:42] asking
[23:43] Ukraine and just recently one of the
[23:46] leaders said, "We have to force Ukraine
[23:48] at the table to negotiate with Russia."
[23:49] That is turning history and perpetrator
[23:52] and
[23:53] No, no, I I no, no, I totally I totally
[23:56] I I'm going to get to the point where I
[23:57] agree with you. I just I I I Again,
[24:00] we're we're like you're starting with
[24:02] the moral thing, I'm starting with the
[24:03] economic reason and cultural reason why
[24:05] this thing exists. So the question you
[24:07] asked is, "Why have they Why are they in
[24:09] ascendancy?" And they're much AfD is
[24:11] much stronger than they appear because I
[24:13] have friends who 5 years ago were
[24:15] telling me they would never vote for the
[24:17] AfD, who are voting for the AfD. Well,
[24:19] like people who are Social Democrats.
[24:21] And And then, when the AfD is polling at
[24:23] 40%, there's another 10 points above
[24:26] that that would vote for them if they
[24:28] weren't the AfD.
[24:29] And so
[24:29] I think the AfD is just the consequence
[24:31] of a weak leadership in the center of
[24:35] political spectrum.
[24:37] Uh but that does not necessarily mean
[24:39] that that disruption
[24:41] is done by a force by a political force
[24:44] that has a concept that will be good for
[24:47] Germany. And I personally think that the
[24:49] AfD is just not an alternative because
[24:52] it is intrinsically in large parts of
[24:54] the party pro-Russia, pro-China, even
[24:57] with a certain tolerance to uh
[25:00] Well, I mean I have
[25:00] authoritarian forces in the Middle East.
[25:02] It is in large parts intrinsically
[25:04] anti-capitalist. It is in large parts
[25:06] anti-American. Just recently we heard
[25:08] that Germany is divided in two parts. We
[25:10] have East Germany where are the German
[25:11] Germans and then we have West Germany
[25:13] where are the American Germans. Okay, so
[25:15] this is
[25:16] just not a alternative.
[25:19] No.
[25:19] Uh and I just would like to
[25:21] a bone to pick with you because
[25:21] some people are accusing Peter or you or
[25:24] that you have a certain leaning or
[25:27] understanding for that
[25:28] No, no, no, okay, then I see.
[25:29] Well,
[25:30] this is again, I basically agree with
[25:33] everything you said, but the point I
[25:34] would push back on I have a deep
[25:36] understanding for why they're
[25:37] succeeding.
[25:38] So, it's like I would not vote for the
[25:40] AfD if I were able to vote and were
[25:42] voting in Germany. And um but that's
[25:45] different from I think part of the
[25:47] reason they're successful is that first
[25:50] of all, no one actually believes like
[25:53] let's just say the parties the classic
[25:56] parties are actually going to take
[25:57] migration seriously, but no one believes
[25:59] they're going to do it. So, you get
[26:01] people voting for AfD basically because
[26:04] you know it's a protest vote. And you
[26:08] know, you know, you're
[26:10] Germans and people who care about
[26:12] Germany like me have been screaming and
[26:15] been right and no one listens. And not
[26:17] only does no one listen and you are a
[26:20] great example of this.
[26:21] You are honestly
[26:24] pretty left wing on most issues as far
[26:26] as I can tell.
[26:28] And I've known you for 20 years. And and
[26:30] and you're kind of classically, if I
[26:32] were to describe you, classically
[26:34] left-leaning person who's a little bit
[26:37] more
[26:38] bought into the capitalist narrative
[26:40] than I am. That that's how I would
[26:41] describe and if I would describe you
[26:42] probably so okay.
[26:44] You get pilloried and and and you tell
[26:48] everybody I'm against the AfD. God knows
[26:51] you have no sympathy for anyone who's
[26:53] pro-Russia. I mean, like you believe for
[26:55] that? Like we're on the front line.
[26:57] Pro-Putin.
[26:58] I should always clarify we have nothing
[27:00] against the Russians. We have nothing
[27:01] against the Chinese, but we have a lot
[27:03] against
[27:04] I'm I'm I'm just kidding. Yeah,
[27:05] I I I'm a Tai Chi I'm an expert in one
[27:08] of the four great treasures in China.
[27:10] I'm reading all these things about I I I
[27:12] have a deep appreciation of Russian
[27:14] culture, Russian math. I have a So, we
[27:16] agree on that, but shorthand
[27:19] if I were to say what I think motivates
[27:21] you
[27:22] after watching you for 20 years is you
[27:25] are deeply pro-democratic.
[27:27] You're kind of progressive on most
[27:29] issues except for you do not like you
[27:32] don't want anything that's stupid and
[27:33] won't work. And if I had to say where
[27:36] you're kind of a zealot
[27:39] it's on the you know, anti-Putin,
[27:42] anti-China stuff. And actually on
[27:46] no tolerance for anti-Semitism. So,
[27:47] that's your those are those those are
[27:49] your
[27:52] Those positions are
[27:56] I mean, they're solidly mainstream. And
[27:59] I can tell people who are listening and
[28:01] want to hear this like if like even in
[28:04] private discussions they're like I'm
[28:05] much more on like yeah, I want to
[28:07] understand why still I of course I'm not
[28:09] going to I'm not interested in voting
[28:10] for them, but I understand why and
[28:11] you're more on the they're wrong,
[28:14] they're wrong, they're wrong, which is
[28:15] why our dialogues are fun. This is
[28:17] basically like it would be in private.
[28:18] Okay. So, the
[28:21] I how much you're we
[28:25] something I am actually frustrated with
[28:27] in Europe is again, the anti-terror
[28:29] things would be very different and
[28:31] Ukraine would not have been able to
[28:33] succeed they're Okay, let me just finish
[28:35] this. But so, obviously I'm not
[28:38] interested in supporting a party that is
[28:40] deeply sympathetic with Putin, is
[28:42] interested in like I think I think
[28:44] Europe made a like the season that is
[28:47] sympathetic with the CCP and and quite
[28:49] frankly these parties are complex but
[28:51] they're you know they have to it does
[28:53] contain people that I kind of would
[28:56] suspect would not like me very much. Um
[28:58] Okay.
[28:59] But
[29:00] Alex, I think the frustration of people
[29:02] is very much driven by a failed
[29:05] migration policy, a failed energy
[29:07] policy, and the journey in Europe is
[29:09] completely
[29:11] And the GDP decline.
[29:12] exactly. It's not delivering on economic
[29:14] growth. And that has to do with a lack
[29:17] of
[29:19] startup culture, of risk culture. In
[29:21] America, people deploy millions to a new
[29:25] idea
[29:26] and just believe that the impossible is
[29:29] possible. Whereas in Europe and in
[29:30] Germany, we have to a large degree a
[29:31] very risk-focused culture.
[29:33] Yeah, but but here we are entering the
[29:35] era of AI and whether it's an
[29:38] opportunity or a threat
[29:40] and I think we should also discuss the
[29:44] culture differences between America and
[29:46] Europe and Germany in the context of
[29:48] these developments. I I think we could
[29:51] turn it around and we could say this is
[29:53] an opportunity because I see a lot of AI
[29:55] skepticism in America. I see in America
[29:57] almost more AI skepticism at this moment
[30:00] than in Europe among normal people. If
[30:04] we have an all hands in America, people
[30:06] are raising posters and saying AI is
[30:08] killing our jobs. If we do the same in
[30:10] Germany or in Europe, people are saying,
[30:12] "Well, we want to learn. We want to
[30:13] understand. We want to take advantage of
[30:14] it."
[30:15] Do you think that there could be
[30:17] Well, yeah, but not without
[30:19] acknowledging that there's a crisis for
[30:21] the very simple reason. First of all,
[30:23] the the debate is different. Europe is
[30:25] partly not skeptical of AI because you
[30:27] are not like for example take the
[30:29] Palantir example. We are the only
[30:32] product available that makes AI useful
[30:35] on the battlefield and safe and useful
[30:37] and safe and commercial. It It's very
[30:39] hard to discuss AI when what they mean
[30:42] are largely companies
[30:45] being slightly unfair that would not be
[30:47] able to compete in America. So,
[30:49] you're talking about AI light, but the
[30:52] thing is
[30:52] But at least talk also about the
[30:53] opportunity.
[30:54] Yeah, I get it and we agree that Germany
[30:56] has not delivered Europe has not
[30:57] delivered.
[30:57] Let me finish Let me just finish this.
[30:59] It you It is nothing's going to work
[31:02] before
[31:03] the Chancellor gets up and says, "We
[31:06] have an a crisis."
[31:08] Because who fix the problem? Again, you
[31:12] are going Who's going to fix the
[31:13] problem? The problem is you are going to
[31:15] have to bring in a Tobias or a Schindler
[31:18] or a Thiel
[31:20] as in a very significant role. You can't
[31:23] rebuild with people who've never done
[31:25] this before. And so, and then who's
[31:27] going to build under what conditions?
[31:29] What are the working conditions? How do
[31:30] you bring the whole society along? How
[31:32] how How much can someone work per day?
[31:35] Tech works because people work are
[31:38] dedicated like doggedly dedicated around
[31:41] the clock for years. And by the way, if
[31:44] somebody doesn't belong on the team, you
[31:45] can move them out of the team or out of
[31:47] the company. By the way, the the for
[31:49] tech people again, I'm wildly I think
[31:51] people I got along with best when I was
[31:53] on boards in Germany were the unions.
[31:55] So, I'm not saying but you don't need
[31:57] worker protection for someone who isn't
[32:00] a software engineer that could work at
[32:01] an LLM lab. So, but
[32:04] to get this to work,
[32:06] you
[32:07] have to have someone saying, "This is a
[32:09] crisis."
[32:11] I think you're also going to have to
[32:12] say, "This is an economic zone. We are
[32:15] going to create an economic zone in
[32:16] Germany and in that economic zone
[32:19] competition is going to look exactly
[32:21] like it looks in America or does in
[32:23] China or does in Israel."
[32:25] Why are people in America more afraid of
[32:27] AI than in Europe at the moment? Do they
[32:28] know more?
[32:30] Or is it
[32:31] Well, first of all, yeah, I mean, really
[32:33] honestly, yes. And so, like again, I
[32:36] think So, do think the fear is
[32:37] appropriate?
[32:38] Of course. It's a These are It's like
[32:41] the simple metaphor that is simple but
[32:44] works is the the large language models
[32:46] are like uranium.
[32:48] Okay.
[32:49] You can use it for a good cause or for a
[32:51] bad cause. No, no, they have to be
[32:52] processed. And in the processing, they
[32:55] become First of all, just touching them
[32:57] probably is not a good idea. But so,
[33:00] using them Like again, Yeah, but if you
[33:02] use the metaphor of uranium, I think
[33:04] it's very appropriate because you can
[33:05] use it for bad or for good causes. And
[33:07] here again, people start to
[33:10] have a moral discussion or discuss
[33:13] whether it's good or bad instead of
[33:14] saying, "Let's make sure that we use it
[33:16] for for good causes." I mean, it's
[33:19] Again, there is this comparison to a
[33:21] knife. You can use a knife in order to
[33:23] prepare food, and you can use a knife in
[33:25] order to kill people. So, we should not
[33:28] But the the reason why
[33:30] But but it it is both true and Again,
[33:32] this is why I think these things are
[33:33] actually economic and technical first.
[33:36] It is
[33:37] you have to understand what the
[33:39] technologies do.
[33:41] You have to have people who are working
[33:43] natively with these technologies.
[33:45] And those people have to be involved.
[33:48] And again, here it's like you basically
[33:50] have different parts of the stack. You
[33:51] have the GPU part of the stack, so
[33:53] that's chips.
[33:54] You have essentially an You can in an
[33:56] enterprise you can have a data
[33:57] integration part of the stack.
[33:59] You can do that by hand. If you want
[34:01] civil liberties, you're going to We do
[34:03] that. You have an application part of
[34:04] the stack, so ontology. What does it
[34:07] mean? How does it mean? How is it
[34:08] deployed? How is it safely deployed? How
[34:09] do you process? How do you use? And you
[34:11] have the large language models, both
[34:12] closed and open models.
[34:14] And the closed and open models have
[34:16] different advantages to the world. Here,
[34:19] to have a tech scene in Europe,
[34:22] you need world-leading components in all
[34:25] those parts. That's not realistic. So,
[34:27] you're going to have to figure out which
[34:28] components are actually the ones that
[34:31] can advance European industry, European
[34:33] sovereignty. The The sovereignty issue
[34:36] is a completely technical issue. And in
[34:40] in it It's not just Germany, honestly.
[34:43] It The what's really happening in Europe
[34:45] is you have bureaucrats whose primary
[34:47] idea is how do I protect the market
[34:49] against American companies? And And
[34:51] everything else is downstream.
[34:52] Let me again try to twist it towards an
[34:56] opportunity.
[34:57] If this kind of
[34:59] anti-AI sentiment is ongoing in America,
[35:01] and I fear that Americans could see an
[35:03] election campaign where the two parties
[35:05] are basically competing in order to
[35:08] explain that their party is protecting
[35:10] their people better against AI. I think
[35:13] that's a very dangerous place, but
[35:14] that's what what's
[35:15] Yeah, that's happening and has already
[35:16] started.
[35:17] So, if that's ongoing, and every kind of
[35:20] new data center is a big
[35:22] issue and
[35:24] raises a lot of protest and so on,
[35:26] wouldn't that be an opportunity for
[35:28] Europe and say, "Okay, Europe, welcome.
[35:30] Keep building the data centers here.
[35:32] I I Matthias, I feel like I'm more
[35:34] German than you. I'm just going to put
[35:35] that out there. You're playing the
[35:37] American. I'm playing it Like, okay.
[35:40] Of course it's an opportunity, but it's
[35:41] only an opportunity if it's technically
[35:44] credible. So, like, if you ask me, I'm
[35:46] in charge of Germany or in charge of
[35:48] France or some great nation,
[35:50] you have to say, "First, we have a
[35:52] crisis. We We are going to get the best
[35:55] people in the world to come.
[35:58] We're going to call the best people in
[35:59] the world and say, "What
[36:00] Wait, what?
[36:01] would stop you from By the way, I told I
[36:03] haven't told this to this Chancellor,
[36:04] but I've literally told directly or
[36:06] indirectly to every Chancellor and every
[36:09] important politician that you can think
[36:11] of for the last 10-15 years. You got to
[36:14] do what Israel does, what China does,
[36:18] what America would do, what what we did
[36:20] after World War II. Do you Do you Like,
[36:22] we built our industry on German
[36:24] scientists.
[36:26] Like,
[36:26] it's like and the people who built the
[36:29] bomb, like when we built the bomb,
[36:32] like Einstein writes the president,
[36:35] the massive opportunity begins with
[36:39] I know we have a problem that is
[36:41] dangerous for the present and future of
[36:44] our society and has to be solved.
[36:46] There's only a political leader in
[36:48] Europe has to make that statement.
[36:51] It would be best if that was Germany for
[36:55] the leaving all of our
[36:57] emotional attachments to Germany simply
[37:00] because Germany once had the best tech
[37:02] scene and still is the driving economic
[37:04] motor of Europe and there is no Europe
[37:06] without Germany. Okay, but then sorry,
[37:08] let me just
[37:09] then the question is
[37:12] you're going to have to bring those
[37:14] people over and they're going to have to
[37:16] be the ones distributing the capital,
[37:18] hiring the people, saying how you do
[37:21] this.
[37:22] Of course, what happens is the local
[37:24] people I mean, Germany has more talent
[37:27] and France is the same thing that any
[37:28] other country per per square Okay, those
[37:31] people learn how to do it and then build
[37:34] their things themselves and that's and
[37:36] by the way, another thing, it's talent
[37:40] not money. It's like it it is
[37:43] part of the problem here.
[37:45] Let me give you a different version.
[37:46] Part of the reason it's hard to do the
[37:47] optimistic thing is every day Europe
[37:50] makes another decision
[37:52] that makes it harder to fix the problem.
[37:55] Okay, Alex,
[37:57] I I agree absolutely on the opportunity
[37:59] and on the necessity to bring back to
[38:02] Germany the best talent. Unfortunately,
[38:03] we have a lot of people who made their
[38:05] careers, who know how things are working
[38:07] and who still feel a certain degree of
[38:10] patriotism or in any case want that
[38:12] Europe and that Germany succeeds. So,
[38:14] let's bring them back, let's take
[38:16] advantage of them or let's use them
[38:18] where they are. We agree on that. But, a
[38:20] fundamental for would be that people
[38:22] believe in the opportunity and believe
[38:25] in the necessity to embrace AI to be at
[38:27] the forefront of these developments.
[38:29] Could you briefly explain why AI is more
[38:32] of an opportunity than a threat if you
[38:33] think if you think
[38:34] Well, I mean again, it's I'm just going
[38:36] to start at the battlefield is not where
[38:37] you want me to start maybe, but without
[38:41] AI systems
[38:42] Russia would have won.
[38:45] And by the way, without pre-AI, but
[38:47] things that can almost do that, you the
[38:50] parties that, you know, you're very
[38:51] focused on would be running Europe
[38:52] because you would have terror attacks
[38:54] that are rampant. So, Europe is already
[38:56] completely existing because of these
[38:59] technologies. Europe, as we know it now
[39:01] with all its problems, would not exist
[39:03] without these technologies being used
[39:06] actively. So, that's like the baseline.
[39:08] Then you get to okay,
[39:10] Germany has now has to compete with
[39:13] China.
[39:14] And to do that it's going to have to
[39:16] rebuild how it builds cars, how it
[39:17] processes chemicals, how it re- changes
[39:21] its historically dominant industries
[39:24] into industries that can compete against
[39:26] America and China.
[39:27] Uh and it has a limited workforce and in
[39:30] migration is failing.
[39:32] Okay, how would you get how would you
[39:34] raise GDP where you have very strict
[39:37] laws, but some of which may have to
[39:39] change. You have energy things which
[39:41] probably will change, but it's going to
[39:43] take a long time where it where
[39:45] migration has not worked.
[39:47] There is only one technology that can do
[39:49] this. And by the way, I tend to think
[39:51] these things should be always asked and
[39:53] answered in the empirical. There are two
[39:56] and a half countries that are embracing
[39:57] these technologies. America, which has
[40:00] GDP growth that part of the problem we
[40:02] have politically is it works almost too
[40:05] well. It's just not widely distributed.
[40:07] China seems to be working and Israel
[40:09] seems to be working. Where have people
[40:11] not embraced these technologies? And so,
[40:14] that that's like it but again, if you
[40:17] just start with the core problem Germany
[40:19] has, it's an export culture. Its
[40:21] products have to be better than everyone
[40:22] else's or no one's going to buy them.
[40:25] And
[40:26] you can basically ask Germans do you
[40:28] think your products are going to be
[40:30] responsible for your for your
[40:33] economic health, bullstand, or is it
[40:35] going to be your diplomatic service
[40:37] that's going to deliver that? You're
[40:38] going to you're going to rely on German
[40:40] popularity. And so the opportunity is
[40:43] it's I tend to think like the
[40:45] opportunity is that if you want to
[40:48] succeed and thrive, there's only one set
[40:50] of technologies that can do this. How
[40:52] are you going to rebuild your car
[40:53] industry so it's as good as China's?
[40:55] Just start there.
[40:56] Like again, that
[40:58] and people are doing that. We have
[40:59] partners. How are you going to rebuild
[41:01] these industries so you can compete and
[41:02] win?
[41:03] There there is no other way.
[41:06] Alex, I think we are living
[41:09] in one of the most exciting times of
[41:11] civilization. There is so much change.
[41:13] There is so much progress. There is
[41:15] progress on so many levels in highest in
[41:19] accelerated speed. It is
[41:21] the case for space. It is the case for
[41:25] health. It is the case for computing and
[41:27] robotics.
[41:28] It is the case also for defense.
[41:31] Unfortunately, we need that. So my
[41:35] question is although we are
[41:38] at the eve of an incredible accelerated
[41:42] productivity gain and uh
[41:45] potentially
[41:46] a better form
[41:48] of
[41:49] living in civilization.
[41:52] I really see that opportunity.
[41:54] Nevertheless,
[41:55] it is one of the most skeptical times.
[41:57] There is a lot of fear. There is a lot
[41:59] of anger.
[42:01] How do you explain that? Is it simply
[42:03] the speed of change?
[42:05] it's too much and now let me just focus
[42:07] on America. I
[42:08] And by the way, that is not a European
[42:10] origin.
[42:12] And it is arguably bigger problem here?
[42:15] This is where I do think America might
[42:17] have like I think
[42:18] Okay. Europe has an obvious tech problem
[42:21] with political consequences that are
[42:24] really bad. America has a more of a
[42:26] political problem where left far left
[42:30] far right have just like
[42:33] they it's more hurt the people are
[42:36] successful than
[42:37] any solution. And they're very serious
[42:39] about that. And you know the the idea
[42:41] they couldn't win is
[42:43] not true unfortunately. Um the
[42:46] the the the the the central framing I'm
[42:48] skeptical of here with people so people
[42:51] I agree with probably you and definitely
[42:53] people in my tech world. Um it's always
[42:57] like this is going to be a bastion of
[43:01] plethora of good things that everyone's
[43:04] going to profit from
[43:06] and there are no dangers. Not saying you
[43:07] say this but but it is a commonly held
[43:09] view and the the tech people want
[43:12] everyone to like to stand up and say
[43:14] that and I think that is not credible.
[43:17] What but I what I think is actually just
[43:19] like the overselling of AI in this
[43:21] country is really really
[43:24] really
[43:26] somewhat disconcerting but it's also
[43:29] depressing because you don't have to do
[43:30] it. This is a natural resource
[43:34] that is net net excruciatingly valuable
[43:38] for
[43:39] the betterment of humanity.
[43:41] But it does have some negative
[43:42] externalities. First of all, we don't
[43:44] know where it's going to go.
[43:46] It's these things are not deployable
[43:48] without processing engines, application
[43:50] layers, ontology, etc. Um
[43:53] it
[43:54] And the biggest problem in this country
[43:56] is
[43:57] it does
[43:58] it while it will raise the standard of
[44:00] living of the average person the people
[44:02] involved are like going to get 10 100
[44:04] times wealthier than they already are.
[44:07] That's a problem for society. Like, you
[44:09] know, the the way I try to explain to my
[44:10] Silicon Valley colleagues is
[44:14] Do you think that the wealth I mean, if
[44:16] we go back to history, then innovation
[44:19] and new technologies have always led to
[44:22] uh growth, to prosperity, and to an
[44:25] improvement of the standard of living of
[44:27] all people.
[44:29] Particularly of the lower income income
[44:32] classes. That has started uh
[44:35] centuries ago. It was true when the
[44:37] wheel was invented. It was true when the
[44:39] steam engine was invented. It was true
[44:42] when
[44:43] computers were invented. It has, in the
[44:47] end, if we draw a line, contributed to
[44:50] the well-being of people, and it has
[44:52] improved the shape of society.
[44:54] Nevertheless, at the beginning, there's
[44:56] always the concern
[44:57] the
[44:58] steam engine is going to destroy
[45:00] Let me just Sorry.
[45:02] jobs.
[45:03] We are always here afraid
[45:05] So, my my point is that I think that
[45:07] life is not different Let me give you a
[45:08] different first. Let me give you a
[45:10] different the answer that I think sums
[45:12] up a lot of the problems
[45:14] in Europe and America. This is new
[45:15] playbook.
[45:16] Like, there or there is no playbook.
[45:18] Like
[45:19] why am I doing so well? Because this is
[45:21] a neuro diversion age. And what the
[45:24] people had skills
[45:26] So, so this is a different revolution.
[45:29] And even if that is true, and let's
[45:31] assume it is that everybody will do
[45:33] well, I think that's not I think most
[45:35] people will do better.
[45:35] You You think the society is going to
[45:37] divide into a very few with incredible
[45:40] wealth
[45:41] the mass that has nothing. No, no, I'm
[45:42] No, I'm not saying that. Again, I think
[45:44] that's like that's kind of the the It
[45:46] That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying
[45:48] most people who are middle and lower and
[45:49] little class will do better. Everybody
[45:52] People who are willing to change their
[45:53] jobs are likely to do better. But not
[45:55] everyone.
[45:57] But that's not the real political
[45:58] problem. We have a political problem in
[46:00] this country, not a tech problem.
[46:03] In past revolutions,
[46:05] uh the person at the bottom maybe their
[46:08] salary doubled and the person at the top
[46:11] became
[46:13] five times wealthier, but like it was
[46:15] very unusual to be a billionaire 40
[46:17] years ago,
[46:18] right?
[46:19] You now have a revolution where,
[46:22] you know, I could become 20 times
[46:23] wealthier than I am now. And the person
[46:26] who is working out here could become,
[46:29] you know, they could have their salary
[46:30] could go over certainly could go up
[46:32] significantly by any normal standard
[46:34] over a period of 10 years.
[46:36] Go up 50% or double, okay?
[46:39] It When you have a complete decoupling
[46:41] of like unimaginable wealth
[46:45] and normal and that unimaginable wealth
[46:48] and then this is where we're not really
[46:49] allowed to say this, but it's done by
[46:52] people that you don't really relate to.
[46:54] Like these are like very oddly shaped IQ
[46:57] specimens
[46:59] that, you know, you probably wouldn't
[47:01] want to have over for dinner. If they
[47:02] were over for dinner, you have nothing
[47:03] to talk to them about.
[47:05] And by the way, vice versa.
[47:07] And you know, and then our whole fabric
[47:10] is not like I got screamed at for like
[47:13] first of all, wasn't a draft. It was
[47:14] like we should have some kind of
[47:15] service. By the way, by that I meant
[47:17] hospital, taking care of old people.
[47:19] Our our fabric of our society's already
[47:21] strained.
[47:22] Wealthy people, it's not like in the
[47:24] '50s and '60s where people actually knew
[47:26] each other, went to the same schools.
[47:28] We're already totally separate
[47:30] societies. Right? It basically is. I
[47:32] mean, it's inflammatory, but we already
[47:34] live in a separate but non-equal
[47:35] society. And then you hypercharge it
[47:38] with like extreme economic wealth.
[47:42] Like like ex- egregiously extreme while
[47:45] everybody else is kind of growing and
[47:47] even if it's not true,
[47:50] people are afraid, even if it is true
[47:52] that most people are raised, the actual
[47:54] fear people have is I'm going to lose my
[47:56] job. Now,
[47:58] that fear, even if it's not true,
[48:00] the people running the lab companies,
[48:03] who are the leaders, told you it's true.
[48:06] They're telling you your life is going
[48:08] to suck, and they're also getting very
[48:10] wealthy, and you don't find them very
[48:11] likable.
[48:12] And people who used to be on the winning
[48:15] side of history are now suddenly very
[48:19] much afraid that they would lose their
[48:20] job. I traveled to the Silicon Valley
[48:23] three times over the last
[48:25] few weeks, and the the level of
[48:28] nervousness
[48:29] is really surprising. A lot of people
[48:31] think we have only 6 months until our
[48:33] jobs are going to be gone, and that is
[48:36] the tech community, that is developers,
[48:38] and they they work day and night in
[48:41] order to reinvent themselves because
[48:43] they are afraid that in a few months
[48:45] And and again, [clears throat] and then
[48:46] no income.
[48:46] And then and then the political version
[48:48] that scares me a lot, and I do think
[48:51] that I'm yelling at everyone in Silicon
[48:53] Valley in private and
[48:54] on public,
[48:55] I've been a Democrat, despite what you
[48:57] may be reading about me, most of my
[48:59] life. I'm still a '70s progressive,
[49:02] which is actually a real progressive,
[49:03] meaning I want to help the poor. I just
[49:05] don't want to burn the rich.
[49:07] The the Silicon Valley
[49:09] line basically is don't believe your
[49:12] lying eyes. Okay, this doesn't work
[49:14] politically. And by the way, it's the
[49:15] same problem Germany and Europe have
[49:17] about all these issues. And if you if
[49:19] you tell people don't believe your lying
[49:21] eyes, you know what they do? They
[49:22] protest vote.
[49:24] That's what happened, and they protest
[49:25] vote cuz what they're really saying is
[49:28] you are telling me not to believe
[49:29] everything I know to By the way, also,
[49:32] just overarching in Europe and in
[49:33] America, the political class has low
[49:36] legitimacy. So, what you know, what your
[49:39] version of reality is, they're always
[49:40] lying to me.
[49:42] I don't know why they're lying. That's
[49:44] hard to figure out, but you people
[49:45] believe they're always lying to me.
[49:47] And again, to just overly tie this in
[49:49] to, annoyingly, why I'll give you a
[49:52] different version. Why is Palantir the
[49:54] most popular brand in the world? People
[49:56] always frame it as the most unpopular.
[49:58] We have For every time you read someone,
[50:00] we have 100 times that. I'll tell you
[50:01] why we're the most popular brand in the
[50:03] world, and that's why they attack us
[50:04] often. We're the most popular brand in
[50:06] the world cuz I might be crazy. I am
[50:08] saying things you don't want to hear
[50:09] like the West is superior, national
[50:12] service, which means helping out old
[50:13] people. Doesn't mean no
[50:15] uh industry should be fully aligned with
[50:17] the country. Uh we have to fight for
[50:19] these things. We have real adversaries.
[50:21] If we're not competent, we'll lose.
[50:23] These things are Technologies are not
[50:25] perfect, and you have to listen to
[50:26] annoying people. And by the way, you
[50:28] can't blame everything on a country you
[50:30] hate, whatever. Okay. And you know why
[50:33] we're so popular? Because everybody else
[50:36] is telling you they're only trying to
[50:38] figure out what you want to hear so they
[50:40] can That's the felt version. And that's
[50:42] why when you when politicians in this
[50:44] country or anywhere else say, "Hey,
[50:46] don't believe your lying eyes on
[50:48] migration. Don't believe your lying eyes
[50:50] on nuclear.
[50:50] Don't believe your lying eyes on AI."
[50:52] They get up, and they vote for people
[50:53] like, "Screw these people. I'm going to
[50:55] burn down the house."
[50:56] What you are addressing is I think one
[50:57] of the most important topics. It is
[50:59] trust. It is about trust. Trust is lost,
[51:01] and trust has been lost in large parts
[51:03] of the political spectrum and the
[51:06] political scene, and trust has also been
[51:09] damaged with regard to media and their
[51:11] credibility. So, we could have a long
[51:13] discussion about that. Would be super
[51:14] interesting, but we have to come to an
[51:16] end sooner or later, Alexander. That's
[51:17] why I would like to touch upon
[51:18] geopolitics. And here the arms race
[51:22] mainly in AI, but not only also in
[51:25] conventional military
[51:28] aspects between America
[51:30] and China or perhaps even ideally
[51:32] between America and Europe on the one
[51:34] side and on the other side China and
[51:37] Russia and Iran and other
[51:41] evil forces. How do you see
[51:43] that thing going to develop?
[51:46] How is the chance
[51:48] that America is continuing to have the
[51:53] upper hand on AI and the developments
[51:55] and how likely is it that China, simply
[51:58] because there is no
[52:00] ethical limitation and there is more
[52:03] access to data of
[52:05] an incredibly
[52:07] large population. I mean, that China is
[52:10] going to win the race. Let me reframe
[52:12] annoyingly it as the inverse.
[52:15] That our moral standards, the advantage
[52:18] America has and Europe does have and I
[52:21] really hope and and Ukraine proves.
[52:24] Um, so it it's very deep in the European
[52:26] history and can be really exposed is
[52:28] that solving the moral issue often
[52:30] uncovers a technical issue about which
[52:33] you're not aware. So, again, Palantir is
[52:35] the data protection platform. It is the
[52:37] sovereign platform that drives our
[52:39] revenue. It is why Ukrainians did so
[52:41] well, why Israel against Iran over
[52:43] performed, why America over performed.
[52:45] And then in tech, there is an advantage
[52:48] if you've actually been on the
[52:49] battlefield that so that China has those
[52:51] they're actually disadvantages. Access
[52:53] to data, I
[52:54] I think actually honestly that might be
[52:56] roughly equal given signal collection on
[52:59] the battle but China has for example
[53:02] medical data of 700 million people.
[53:05] China has
[53:06] full
[53:07] You're talking transparency through
[53:09] complete surveillance with regard to
[53:10] behavioral data of their people. I think
[53:12] that's a different quality because
[53:14] there's simply no democratic
[53:16] Again, we we should have that's a longer
[53:18] technical and it depends what you mean
[53:20] by informatics, machinery, or
[53:23] battlefield. Battlefield I would push
[53:25] back on that. Um, and
[53:28] and I would also also there's not the
[53:31] correlation between
[53:33] too feel too much too much data can also
[53:35] be a problem. It really depends on their
[53:37] processing capabilities. Also, the
[53:40] depending on whether Europe and America
[53:42] changes, the the we there's a lot of
[53:45] complexity in that statement. It it is
[53:46] both true and not true. It depends on
[53:48] the thing. I I'll give you an advantage
[53:50] I think China really does have, which is
[53:53] these technologies pound chairs like
[53:55] 4,000 people
[53:56] 4,200 or something were were on every
[53:59] major battlefield. It
[54:01] The reality is there are very big
[54:03] hardware projects that are still about
[54:05] still valuable in in in in in
[54:08] if you look at Iran as opposed to
[54:09] Ukraine heavy hardware
[54:11] plane ships other things played a big
[54:14] role. Those things employ thousands
[54:17] millions of people.
[54:18] They they end up with a political
[54:20] constituency.
[54:21] One of the biggest problems we have in
[54:23] the West that China doesn't have is
[54:25] these technologies are clearly the
[54:27] future
[54:28] combined with others, but you just are
[54:30] feeding
[54:31] fewer families. And so it's much harder
[54:34] for us to shift the budget to exactly
[54:37] where it should go.
[54:39] Whereas in a like China and also China's
[54:41] run by more of an engineering class. So
[54:43] I think they they I would suspect they
[54:46] have a better like if you I I'm pretty
[54:47] sure if you went to the Chinese
[54:50] level like two levels below the person
[54:53] at the top and you did that in any
[54:54] European country, you would find
[54:56] somebody I could explain the technical
[54:58] issues to. I don't I don't know where
[55:00] that person is in Europe and it's harder
[55:02] in the West. So I think that that's the
[55:04] advantage. The disadvantage they have is
[55:06] one, people like you and me and the
[55:08] people that Europe could recruit
[55:11] really don't want to live in a country
[55:12] where they have no democratic rights or
[55:14] economic rights. Uh uh two, um the
[55:18] actual again, this is where I think the
[55:20] commercial and battlefield thing of
[55:22] American industry is at battle.
[55:24] These things are not theoretical. And
[55:27] China like America for again, I've been
[55:28] against I'm not pro-war despite what
[55:31] people think, but one of the advantages
[55:33] Ukraine Israel America has just quite
[55:35] frankly is we know a lot about war, what
[55:38] works, what doesn't, how it works, what
[55:40] products work, what products don't work.
[55:42] Um so, I would say knit knit, that
[55:45] again, the chief political the chief
[55:48] technological weakness we have in the
[55:50] West is kind of political. It's not
[55:51] technical.
[55:52] Okay, but if you had to
[55:54] take a bet now, would you rather bet
[55:56] that China is going to win the race in
[55:59] 10 years down the road, or will the US
[56:01] keep winning?
[56:02] Well, again, it it 10 years too far out.
[56:05] We don't know That's impossible to
[56:06] answer because also,
[56:07] again, I think the chief problem we have
[56:09] is political. Like would China win if
[56:12] you start banning the ability to pure
[56:14] procure like Look, again, I'm not saying
[56:16] all the anti-poverty stuff is fine
[56:18] funded by our adversaries, but it's also
[56:20] funded by the adversaries. What is the
[56:21] best thing that can happen to Russia and
[56:24] China and Iran? Is you don't buy the
[56:26] things that work. So, like that these
[56:29] things And you know who knows this? I
[56:31] mean, these people, again, they are
[56:33] excruciatingly intelligent and ruthless.
[56:36] And if they find out that in your local
[56:37] culture, there people who view
[56:39] technology as witchcraft, you can bet
[56:40] your last dollar they're going to fund
[56:42] those people. And you see this in
[56:43] America on all sorts of issues. You see
[56:45] it vis-a-vis us everywhere. Like the
[56:47] most inane things that actually kind of
[56:49] work, but you know, so it's like does
[56:52] the Is the West able to continue to
[56:55] produce these things? By the way, but
[56:57] again, I think Silicon Valley in this
[56:59] country and your people who think
[57:01] they're advocating for sovereignty in
[57:02] Europe are, you know, could really have
[57:04] to do a better job. Um and so, but if
[57:07] you asked if we can mitigate that risk
[57:10] by by being more honest and more frontal
[57:12] and and more realistic both in America
[57:15] and Europe about our strengths and
[57:16] weaknesses,
[57:18] we have a very good chance of winning,
[57:19] but it is very good chance. Like it's
[57:21] like you can't Like just take the actual
[57:23] technical things. The best open models
[57:26] in the world now are Chinese. That's a
[57:28] problem also because the closed model
[57:31] some of the closed model providers are
[57:33] actually trying to monetize your data.
[57:36] And if you have China offering models
[57:39] that are where they're encouraging an
[57:41] application layer like ours,
[57:42] interestingly, and you can control the
[57:45] weights, and that's why we did this
[57:46] whole thing with with
[57:48] Nvidia, but it's like the the
[57:52] the openings here for China are very,
[57:54] very real. And again, I'm just repeating
[57:56] myself, but
[57:57] if they can control the political
[58:00] apparatus because it's one tribe, one
[58:02] person, one gender, and we somehow can't
[58:05] do that, that's a that's a problem.
[58:08] Alex, the very last question of our
[58:09] conversation. We are living in the world
[58:12] where most of the centrist
[58:15] countries and their leadership is
[58:19] stumbling or weak, where
[58:21] populists and autocrats are on the rise.
[58:26] We are
[58:28] challenged by
[58:31] opportunities, and there is a lot of
[58:33] fear, and anger,
[58:36] and at the time time,
[58:38] a lot of opportunity.
[58:40] We have
[58:41] an incredibly unpredictable geopolitical
[58:44] situation.
[58:46] Wars are part of daily reality.
[58:51] A couple of years down the road, do you
[58:54] think that what we're experiencing now,
[58:56] all these discussions, all these
[58:58] changes, are the beginning of the end of
[59:02] the open society model, and we will have
[59:04] in 5 to 10 years a more autocratic
[59:06] world, where strongmen
[59:09] and autocrats are dominant, or do you
[59:12] rather think that what we're
[59:14] experiencing now is
[59:16] the healthy wake-up call, is the
[59:19] beginning of a reinvention, of a
[59:22] rejuvenation, of the centrist,
[59:25] rules-based,
[59:27] open society model.
[59:29] Well, thank you. That's a great way to
[59:31] end. Like just if like when I'm saying
[59:34] China and our adversaries have an
[59:36] advantage in procurement because of like
[59:39] very narrow selection and
[59:43] like what I'm trying to say is we don't
[59:46] know the answer to this question, but we
[59:47] have to fight like hell to make sure we
[59:50] are not in societies where they're like
[59:52] the crazy thing is the functional allies
[59:55] of our adversaries now
[59:57] uh who claim to want these progressive
[01:00:00] things, both actually far right and far
[01:00:02] left, which are actually structurally
[01:00:04] very similar, are helping to fight for
[01:00:06] structures
[01:00:08] that would not include anyone like them.
[01:00:10] Like so I want a society where it is the
[01:00:14] best people succeed, those people every
[01:00:16] the inputs are very as as equal as they
[01:00:19] can be, the outputs depend on your
[01:00:22] aptitude and
[01:00:24] discipline and honestly and fortunately
[01:00:26] luck and other variables.
[01:00:27] Um where their rule of law is enforced,
[01:00:31] including if you do not like the person.
[01:00:33] So there's a right of free speech
[01:00:35] whether you like the person or not,
[01:00:37] there's a right of privacy whether you
[01:00:38] like the person or not, there's a right
[01:00:40] to put checks on the government whether
[01:00:42] you know they like you or not, where we
[01:00:45] are able to do creative things and the
[01:00:47] people who do them get to keep some
[01:00:49] portion of the proceeds, but where those
[01:00:51] proceeds are distributed enough so that
[01:00:54] everybody feels like they're
[01:00:55] participating, that we have an idea of
[01:00:57] national order, but that's actually
[01:00:59] national, but progressive. Like you
[01:01:02] know, you get to be Swiss if you're
[01:01:03] Swiss, but you also believe that people
[01:01:06] who aren't Swiss have a valuable
[01:01:07] culture.
[01:01:08] You get to be American if you're you
[01:01:10] know, the the the the people who are
[01:01:13] working the hardest to destroy that
[01:01:15] those concepts and are the most
[01:01:17] effective in destroying these concepts
[01:01:19] call themselves progressive. And they're
[01:01:22] not progressive. or they call
[01:01:23] themselves, you know, uh I don't know,
[01:01:26] super far right. They're not even
[01:01:28] right-wing. Like, you know, one of the
[01:01:30] one of the things I think is hilarious,
[01:01:32] though, on that score is, you know, I
[01:01:34] spent a lot of time in Germany uh
[01:01:36] talking to people who, you know, some of
[01:01:38] them regretted, some of them didn't
[01:01:39] regret their role in in history and dark
[01:01:42] times.
[01:01:43] I think they would be very amused to
[01:01:45] know that people who've taken up their
[01:01:47] mantle on the right are
[01:01:49] mostly uh
[01:01:51] uh people of color, gay, and or Jewish.
[01:01:54] So, we've had some progress in our
[01:01:56] societies.
[01:01:57] [laughter]
[01:01:59] We now people on the far right are very
[01:02:01] diverse
[01:02:02] on all fronts. And uh but um people on
[01:02:05] the uh and the people on the far left, I
[01:02:07] think in the people I hung out with in
[01:02:09] the Frankfurt School, which is
[01:02:11] a truly
[01:02:12] was left of center from where I was, but
[01:02:14] true progressives would be somewhat not
[01:02:16] amused to know that the the the actual
[01:02:19] philosophical background of most modern
[01:02:23] actual non-progressive progressive is
[01:02:24] not Marx, it's Heidegger.
[01:02:26] And it they're not actually left-wing.
[01:02:28] They're actually asking for things that
[01:02:30] are classically right-wing. What are
[01:02:31] those things?
[01:02:33] They're asking for we all get to be the
[01:02:35] same.
[01:02:36] We're all defined by who we are, by how
[01:02:38] we were born, or what we impute
[01:02:40] ourselves to be. There are only rights
[01:02:43] for a sect of people, the a sector of
[01:02:46] people. The rights do not apply to
[01:02:48] people who are not like us because of
[01:02:50] wealth or because they think
[01:02:52] differently. And that we want a society
[01:02:54] that is essentially looks communal and
[01:02:56] it is no way These These are like
[01:02:58] prototypical non-progressive
[01:03:01] classically right-wing thoughts, just
[01:03:03] reapplied to people who call themselves
[01:03:05] progressive.
[01:03:07] And that's the society that Palantir and
[01:03:09] I are effectively working against.
[01:03:13] By By How are we working against it? By
[01:03:15] by people giving people more
[01:03:16] sovereignty, whether they believe it or
[01:03:18] not, giving people,
[01:03:20] protecting people from terrorism with
[01:03:21] civil liberties,
[01:03:22] [music]
[01:03:23] by making businesses wealthier, better,
[01:03:25] where the businesses keep their actual
[01:03:27] alpha,
[01:03:28] by helping Ukraine, Israel, and America
[01:03:31] establish a dominant position.
[01:03:34] That's actually helping. [music]
[01:03:35] That's one of the most beautiful
[01:03:36] sentences
[01:03:38] of democracies. We agree to disagree. In
[01:03:40] that case, I have to say we agree. Thank
[01:03:43] you very much for the discussion.
[01:03:44] [music]
[01:03:44] Take care.