Oxford Scholar Dr. Joshua Little Gives 21 REASONS Why Historians are SKEPTICAL of Hadith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz4vMUUxhag

[00:01] you're about to watch a controversial interview with Dr Joshua little of Oxford University.
[00:05] he's a historian of early Islam and a Hadith specialist.
[00:10] but I wanted to start off with this disclaimer.
[00:13] Hadith is one of the most controversial issues in modern Islamic thought.
[00:18] one extreme held by many conservative traditionalists considers the Hadith as a second scripture alongside or really above the Quran.
[00:30] another extreme held by quranists categorically rejects the Hadith.
[00:33] in between however there are all sorts of middle positions including the one I take which is close to that of the late fuzzler Rahman.
[00:41] on the one hand Rahman agreed with Western Scholars that it cannot be maintained that the Hadith go back to the prophet Muhammad at least not from the historical critical perspective.
[00:51] on the other hand he understood that Hadith was useful to discern the competing views of the early Muslim Community and could thus be useful in reconstructing the Sunnah here Rahman.
[01:01] reconstructing the Sunnah here Rahman sought to resurrect the early usage of the word Sunnah as denoting the lived tradition of Islam.
[01:11] overall this video was intended to educate the audience about the state of Hadith studies in Western scholarship.
[01:14] Hadith studies in Western scholarship agree or disagree this is important information to know in order to formulate a proper Islamic response.
[01:21] formulate a proper Islamic response alright welcome back to the impactful scholar.
[01:23] this is part two of my interview with Dr Joshua little we're going to go into some controversial Waters now.
[01:30] we're going to be talking about Hadith from the historical critical perspective and the assessment that Dr little is going to give I think is going to be pretty less than optimistic about our ability to actually find out what the prophet Muhammad said from the Hadith literature.
[01:45] but what it's it's important to keep in mind though that um even if the historical critical method has this negative assessments that doesn't mean that from a religious perspective we can't use certain hadiths using certain methodologies.
[01:58] so I just want to make that clear before I bring on Dr little.
[02:01] okay and we will do a separate uh video.
[02:05] okay and we will do a separate uh video on religious perspectives when it comes on religious perspectives when it comes to Hadith.
[02:09] all right welcome back Dr little how are all right welcome back Dr little how are you doing Joshua.
[02:14] you doing Joshua can you hear me okay I'm sweltering in can you hear me okay I'm sweltering in the summer heat but otherwise I'm good.
[02:19] the summer heat but otherwise I'm good yeah it's the winter for us so that yeah it's the winter for us so that makes sense we probably have a slightly.
[02:24] makes sense we probably have a slightly better internet this time and the better internet this time and the audience was very clear they want to.
[02:28] audience was very clear they want to hear less of me and more of you so we'll hear less of me and more of you so we'll try to make that happen.
[02:33] try to make that happen anything you'd like to add about uh the anything you'd like to add about uh the previous part one I see that some people.
[02:38] previous part one I see that some people have identified you uh things to add have identified you uh things to add.
[02:43] well if people want more detail for the well if people want more detail for the augmentation they can go to my blog also.
[02:50] augmentation they can go to my blog also if people want to sort of understand if people want to sort of understand more what we mean by islamophobia again.
[02:55] more what we mean by islamophobia again there's an article in my blog there's an article in my blog I think it's actually the first article.
[02:58] I think it's actually the first article on my blog on my blog which is the.
[03:01] which is the resources on a phobia article and I resources on a phobia article and I clarify what is meant by islamophobia.
[03:06] clarify what is meant by Islamophobia there so if people sort of wanted a little bit more elaboration on those topics I recommend just going and having a look at my blog because I think it's sort of outlined pretty well there so I guess that's maybe that's uh all right.
[03:19] sounds good so let's move on then to our part two we're going to be talking about Hadith in general.
[03:26] so I think you had some 21 reasons or so as to why historical critical scholars are what would be the right word suspicious towards the Hadith genre.
[03:37] I'll let you take it away what you can introduce the subject if you'd like.
[03:41] sure well so I guess we could look at this as like first we're going to look at Hadith in general why there would be a reason to doubt while there is reason to be skeptical of Hadith and then we can move after that into the specific example of the Aisha Hadith.
[03:59] so this is like a general framework or a general background if that makes sense uh so the way that I would sort of describe this is what does Secular critical.
[04:09] Is what does secular critical scholarships say about the reliability or authenticity of Hadith?
[04:13] Maybe that's the sort of phrasing that I would use.
[04:16] And so maybe a um a preface to this or a sort of a something to keep in mind as maybe a contrast to this is it's often I've had it said times uh in a number of contexts.
[04:32] That and this is by religious traditional suddenly usually so many traditionalists although there will be analogs obviously there she really traditionalists and so on.
[04:43] Um so I've heard it said that Hadith are the most reliable historical source that exists.
[04:52] Right it's like Hadith is far and beyond any other kind of historical source that we have.
[04:57] And if you reject Hadith or if you're skeptical of Hadith you sort of have to reject all history you know a fortiori because Hadith is the most reliable to reject Hadith anything else is inferior.
[05:09] reject Hadith anything else is inferior you have to reject everything else as well right so I sort of want to keep
[05:14] well right so I sort of want to keep that in mind so or to put it another way
[05:16] that in mind so or to put it another way if if
[05:18] if if is so reliable them going on with those
[05:21] is so reliable them going on with those secular critical scholarship why do they
[05:24] secular critical scholarship why do they actually doubt Hadith or be skeptical
[05:26] actually doubt Hadith or be skeptical towards Hadith you know if if Hadith are
[05:29] towards Hadith you know if if Hadith are indeed so reliable so this is sort of
[05:30] indeed so reliable so this is sort of maybe the a contrast that we could set
[05:32] maybe the a contrast that we could set up there's this common sort of narrative
[05:35] up there's this common sort of narrative that you hear uh on in sort of like
[05:38] that you hear uh on in sort of like traditional settings about how sort of
[05:41] traditional settings about how sort of uh immensely reliable haditha and now
[05:44] uh immensely reliable haditha and now we're going to look at the competing
[05:47] we're going to look at the competing view or an alternative view sort of
[05:48] view or an alternative view sort of almost a stark contrast which is what
[05:51] almost a stark contrast which is what the secular critical scholarships say
[05:52] the secular critical scholarships say and why are they saying it why does
[05:55] and why are they saying it why does their Scholars say but they say
[05:57] their Scholars say but they say peace
[05:58] peace so you mentioned the the now numbers
[06:03] so you mentioned the the now numbers approximately 21 problems that have been
[06:08] approximately 21 problems that have been expressed with Hadith reasons to doubt
[06:11] expressed with Hadith reasons to doubt Hadith reasons to be skeptical of Hadith.
[06:14] Hadith reasons to be skeptical of Hadith uh that have been expressed let's say over the last 150 years last century or so in secular critical scholarship.
[06:19] so in secular critical scholarship so we're going to go through those and give a little bit of an explanation you know what's going on and um you know so to speak.
[06:33] um so overall assessment wise then how would you respond if somebody said exactly because I actually was listening to someone just right before we met right now uh who said exactly that that all of the major works of literature in the western tradition um are less reliable less reliably go back to their authors than compared to Hadith.
[06:56] so if you if Western Scholars wanted to take this perspective they're undermining their entire tradition this is what now of course it was a certain traditionalist who was claiming this how would you respond to that is that an accurate assessment or is it the case that we simply uh don't have reliable
[07:12] that we simply uh don't have reliable sources when it comes to people in the pre-modern period or is the Hadith really better than all of these other sources or is it that the Hadith we have specific reasons to doubt Hadith that that problematizes that statement to begin with that it's the most reliably preserved.
[07:33] I it'll become clear by the end but I my view actually is not only our Hadith in general unreliable I would actually say that Hadith are unusually like I think that the list of problems with Hadith is kind of staggering and that uh Hadith are actually much less reliable than other kinds of historical sources and that has to do with the specific conditions in which they emerge in the specific regime of pressures in which they were operating uh but yeah I think not only is it not true but it's like it's like radically false actually this idea that
[08:13] radically false actually this idea that Hadith is the most reliable.
[08:14] I actually Hadith is the most reliable.
[08:16] I actually think that Hadith are unusually unreliable.
[08:17] um to put another if you had a series of like you know like a dial and you could turn but up to like more problems or less problems right.
[08:21] Hadith almost have every dial turned up to Max you know the only thing that could maybe make the situation worse.
[08:23] I mean I'm sure there are several things but one one thing would be like if there was a much longer time Gap but absent that like if pretty much any other problem you can think of you know we have with Hadith.
[08:24] So I I actually think that Hadith are unusually unreliable actually.
[08:26] But that'll I think that'll become clear when we go through these these problems.
[08:29] um so yeah I I don't think that um uh I don't think that other kinds of sources are necessary.
[08:31] There will be other historical sources that are also very unreliable but I think that there are plenty of historical sources that are can be used maybe to a much greater extent to reconstruct the relevant.
[09:15] extent to reconstruct the relevant history than for example Hadith can.
[09:17] history than for example Hadith can so yeah I just think it's not true and I think that'll become clear so a way of comparing is if when we go through these problems right these 21 problems.
[09:27] um you can just pick another text and just compare and see does this text have the same number of problems and I think that usually there won't be as many problems and that is just a simple step establishing simply either actually I think in my opinion unusually unreliable.
[09:44] does that make sense.
[09:46] yeah that makes a lot of sense I have one follow-up question but I realized that I'm a terrible host and I should have introduced you once again to the audience who may not have watched part one so I'll do that right now way out of order maybe we can in post we can fix this but um so this is Dr Joshua little that we're speaking to who recently completed his uh defale or PhD at Oxford University in the faculty of Oriental studies is that correct.
[10:14] yes things going going in name change be
[10:17] yes things going going in name change be the faculty of the faculty of Western studies now okay and Western studies now okay and um you are a historian of early Islam as well as primarily a Hadith specialist a Hadith studies specialist obviously studied in the western Academy so that will be different than someone who goes the traditional or traditionalist route and so that's why we've had you on and most recently for those people who are living under a rock although I think everyone who's watching this will know uh you published um or you submitted your dissertation it's been accepted on the marital age of Aisha and everyone is desperately trying to get their hands on this and when will that finally come out by the way because people are emailing me all the time I want this dissertation so when do you anticipate that that will come out actually available to the public that is I I'm so sorry I just don't know I I don't know when I'll get the final bureaucratic finalization on that I don't know how long it takes so I'm just waiting you along with everyone else and and when you put it out there will it likely be in the book Forum or will it
[11:19] likely be in the book Forum or will it be the dissertation that you'll put out?
[11:20] be the dissertation that you'll put out itself?
[11:22] itself or is that something to be determined?
[11:25] or is that something to be determined I assume the dissertation should appear on some kind of database or something.
[11:30] that's that's my assumption I I will also publish it as a book but that will be that would presumably occur within a year or two like that there's going to be a much more of a delay but a preliminary version which is to say the thesis version should be available I should be available soon but I again I actually just don't know I don't know what the bureaucratic timetable.
[11:52] fantastic sorry all right so now my question since I'm doing this all out of order and and I'm sure the comments they're gonna tell me how bad of a host I am I'm getting used to it guys this is the first time for me all right so my second.
[12:07] second and when we are dealing with the lag as always so that does complicate things um but okay my second question for you is uh so we've made that I've I've often seen that comparison with other pieces.
[12:19] seen that comparison with other pieces of literature or history for example his
[12:22] of literature or history for example his Western works of literature history so
[12:26] Western works of literature history so you already talked about that what about
[12:28] you already talked about that what about the comparison is also made with the
[12:30] the comparison is also made with the Quran itself the argument is often if
[12:33] Quran itself the argument is often if you doubt and this is usually geared
[12:34] you doubt and this is usually geared more towards Islamic modernists but
[12:36] more towards Islamic modernists but maybe you've heard this argument as well
[12:38] maybe you've heard this argument as well which is uh and and just for the
[12:40] which is uh and and just for the audience sake Dr little is not a Muslim
[12:43] audience sake Dr little is not a Muslim so he's a Western Historical critical
[12:45] so he's a Western Historical critical scholar you know you can be a Muslim but
[12:47] scholar you know you can be a Muslim but he just doesn't happen to be one
[12:49] he just doesn't happen to be one um but my question is how does it
[12:52] um but my question is how does it compare to the Quran so if you impugn
[12:54] compare to the Quran so if you impugn the Hadith in this way are you also
[12:56] the Hadith in this way are you also impugning the Quran that's that's off
[12:59] impugning the Quran that's that's off because the argument is made the same
[13:01] because the argument is made the same people who carried one carried the other
[13:02] people who carried one carried the other now I don't find this very convincing
[13:04] now I don't find this very convincing but I'd love to hear what you have to
[13:05] but I'd love to hear what you have to say
[13:06] say foreign
[13:10] so firstly the Quran is transmitted at
[13:14] so firstly the Quran is transmitted at least
[13:15] least from the time of Earthman from Rothman
[13:17] from the time of Earthman from Rothman back I think things are a little bit
[13:19] back I think things are a little bit more
[13:20] more uncertain but let's taking it from the canonization onwards uh the Quran was transmitted continuously in writing and not only in writing but in really precise government-affiliated or government orchestrated you know Scrabble transmission and of course Marine fan Putin has a great article on this studying the different spellings of and so on and and even the sort of idiosyncratic spellings were preserved across different different manuscripts that's how precise the the transmission was of course there are some areas that occur along the way but but basically the Quran this arithmetic Quran has been really really well preserved through continuous precise written transmission um also we can just look at whether or not it contains anachronisms and I agree with Fred Donner I just think you know there there are no obvious later anachronisms it's a completely different situation from Hadith actually it's real is it like minimal variation nice to preserved
[14:22] like minimal variation nice to preserved continuously in writing there are no
[14:24] continuously in writing there are no obvious anachronisms from later on it's
[14:26] obvious anachronisms from later on it's just a completely different situation so
[14:28] just a completely different situation so I think actually the Quran is a perfect
[14:29] I think actually the Quran is a perfect comparison here Quran is obviously at
[14:32] comparison here Quran is obviously at least from Earthman onwards very
[14:33] least from Earthman onwards very reliably preserved uh you know it's and
[14:36] reliably preserved uh you know it's and on many points it's just you know and we
[14:39] on many points it's just you know and we have very early manuscripts as well by
[14:41] have very early manuscripts as well by the way so it's like you know but you
[14:44] the way so it's like you know but you know and we can do stomatics on it and
[14:46] know and we can do stomatics on it and again with very minimal variation but
[14:47] again with very minimal variation but there is
[14:53] you know so on on many points the Quran
[14:56] you know so on on many points the Quran is clearly a a a very different text
[15:00] is clearly a a a very different text with a very different kind of
[15:02] with a very different kind of transmission history to that of Hadith
[15:04] transmission history to that of Hadith so I think it's a pretty starkist in my
[15:06] so I think it's a pretty starkist in my opinion
[15:07] opinion yeah that's great I'll add my two cents
[15:10] yeah that's great I'll add my two cents um I I agree with you and also I would
[15:12] um I I agree with you and also I would say that very early on there was this
[15:15] say that very early on there was this large Khalifa project at least with the
[15:17] large Khalifa project at least with the third caliph onward if not before that
[15:19] third caliph onward if not before that uh to preserve the Quran in writing
[15:22] uh to preserve the Quran in writing whereas it is it there are some sources.
[15:25] whereas it is it there are some sources that indicate the exact opposite when it that indicate the exact opposite when it comes to the Hadith.
[15:29] comes to the Hadith um that there were bans on writing it.
[15:31] um that there were bans on writing it compiling it perhaps even transmitting.
[15:34] compiling it perhaps even transmitting Hadith now whether those are historical.
[15:35] Hadith now whether those are historical or not that's Up For Debate but um so I.
[15:37] or not that's Up For Debate but um so I do think that it's actually the polar.
[15:39] do think that it's actually the polar opposite situation.
[15:40] opposite situation um okay so let's get into oh yeah before.
[15:45] um okay so let's get into oh yeah before we get into your 21 reasons which I love.
[15:47] we get into your 21 reasons which I love that it's 21.
[15:50] um how about we deal with that it's 21.
[15:53] um how about we deal with that uh Trope as well which is the idea that uh Trope as well which is the idea that preservation is best when it's oral.
[15:57] that preservation is best when it's oral even though when they're talking about.
[15:58] even though when they're talking about the Quran they're saying that the reason.
[15:59] the Quran they're saying that the reason why the Quran is so reliable is because.
[16:02] why the Quran is so reliable is because so many people have memorized it in.
[16:04] so many people have memorized it in their hearts you know in their in the.
[16:06] their hearts you know in their in the chests as they say.
[16:07] chests as they say um but this doesn't seem to track with.
[16:09] um but this doesn't seem to track with common sense in my opinion what about.
[16:10] common sense in my opinion what about from a historian's perspective is it.
[16:12] from a historian's perspective is it true that.
[16:13] true that is Preservation better when stuff goes.
[16:16] is Preservation better when stuff goes into writing or is it better when it's.
[16:18] into writing or is it better when it's oral orally transmitted or is it.
[16:20] oral orally transmitted or is it something that you want to get into once.
[16:21] something that you want to get into once we get into your 21 reasons.
[16:23] we get into your 21 reasons firstly secular critical scholarship but
[16:26] firstly secular critical scholarship but this I just mean the tradition of
[16:28] this I just mean the tradition of scholarship that comes out of Europe in
[16:30] scholarship that comes out of Europe in the 19th century and has since spread
[16:32] the 19th century and has since spread around the world thanks in no small part
[16:34] around the world thanks in no small part to you know Western imperialism of
[16:36] to you know Western imperialism of course and this tradition
[16:39] course and this tradition basically I mean either way you define
[16:41] basically I mean either way you define it but what key characteristics that I
[16:44] it but what key characteristics that I discern in this tradition this is the
[16:46] discern in this tradition this is the tradition that I'm working in is that
[16:47] tradition that I'm working in is that there is an attempt to systematically
[16:50] there is an attempt to systematically apply established background knowledge
[16:53] apply established background knowledge from for example science and from other
[16:57] from for example science and from other kinds of disciplines like that in
[16:59] kinds of disciplines like that in understanding and appraising history and
[17:02] understanding and appraising history and that includes for example things like
[17:03] that includes for example things like Logistics and
[17:06] Logistics and um you know just general established
[17:07] um you know just general established historical background knowledge you know
[17:09] historical background knowledge you know these sorts of things and so you can
[17:12] these sorts of things and so you can actually find this by the way in
[17:15] actually find this by the way in traditional Islamic scholarship
[17:16] traditional Islamic scholarship sometimes and actually Jonathan Brown I
[17:19] sometimes and actually Jonathan Brown I cite examples of this for example with
[17:22] cite examples of this for example with some classical Scholars to analyzing the
[17:24] some classical Scholars to analyzing the Hadith about Adam being a giant in Hadith about Adam being a giant in ancient times and then there's a world.
[17:29] ancient times and then there's a world but look at ancient rule you know and then people used to be Giants and they've got smaller.
[17:33] they've got smaller they looked at ancient ruins and people seemed basically the same height in the past as they were now and this is the classical speaking.
[17:41] so that's actually this is basically the same thing the difference though is the deck critical Scholars this does that systematically whereas traditional scholarship generally does that very radically or or only like so this is the tradition I mean this is it's this sort of um you know science it's kind of like a science informed uh a kind of uh you know tradition of scholarship that attempts to sort of draw upon all this kind of sort of established background knowledge uh so this is just what I mean when I say secular critical scholarship.
[18:18] it's that tradition of scholarship hopefully that makes sense and we'll get more into this subsequently when we talk about things like Miracles and so on and
[18:26] about things like Miracles and so on and this will be even clearer this sort of.
[18:28] this will be even clearer this sort of difference in in the the kind of.
[18:30] difference in in the the kind of scholarship here because for example.
[18:32] scholarship here because for example traditional religious scholarship so.
[18:33] traditional religious scholarship so first of all that's the traditional.
[18:35] first of all that's the traditional scholarship I'm talking about what does.
[18:37] scholarship I'm talking about what does that tradition the tradition that I'm in.
[18:39] that tradition the tradition that I'm in what does this tradition have to say.
[18:40] what does this tradition have to say about Hadith and so on is there anything.
[18:43] about Hadith and so on is there anything else you'd like to say before we jump.
[18:45] else you'd like to say before we jump into the 21 reasons we are skeptical of.
[18:49] into the 21 reasons we are skeptical of the Hadith.
[18:52] yeah so there's other.
[18:55] yeah so there's other uh.
[18:57] uh conceptual points I want to make before.
[18:59] conceptual points I want to make before we before we dive in so one is about the.
[19:02] we before we dive in so one is about the positions that people hold in field this.
[19:05] positions that people hold in field this is now the secular critical field of.
[19:08] is now the secular critical field of Hadith studies.
[19:10] Hadith studies so.
[19:12] so you're doubtless very familiar with.
[19:15] you're doubtless very familiar with these terms like revisionist.
[19:18] these terms like revisionist and traditionalists and so on like we.
[19:20] and traditionalists and so on like we all know these terms but people often.
[19:23] all know these terms but people often conflate several different kinds of.
[19:25] conflate several different kinds of positions and I want to disentangle them.
[19:28] positions and I want to disentangle them so there are skept and there are sanguine scholars.
[19:34] there are also traditionalists and revisionists and these are points so you can actually sort of make four different quadrants.
[19:42] there isn't it isn't like there's a spectrum with two points.
[19:50] there's actually four points and you can play scholars in actually four different quadrants so I just wanted to clarify that.
[19:58] so there's revisionism and traditionalism this is the position that you you have early Islamic history reconstructing early Islamic history.
[20:09] are you going with broadly speaking the traditional narrative or are you creating an alternative reconstruction that you know notably deviates from it.
[20:17] if you're going with the traditional view then you know if you're historical reconstruction it here is more or less to the traditional loot then that would be traditionalist.
[20:24] but if your reconstruction you know noticeably deviates from it then you're
[20:28] noticeably deviates from it then you're a revisionist
[20:29] a revisionist and then separate from that there is how
[20:34] and then separate from that there is how do you approach the sources do you think
[20:36] do you approach the sources do you think that any given report or reports in
[20:38] that any given report or reports in general are reliable or are you
[20:40] general are reliable or are you skeptical of them and this tracks
[20:43] skeptical of them and this tracks angular approach the sources versus
[20:45] angular approach the sources versus skeptical approach to the sources and so
[20:48] skeptical approach to the sources and so I want to disentangle those because what
[20:49] I want to disentangle those because what we're primarily talking about here is
[20:51] we're primarily talking about here is skepticism towards Hadith
[20:54] skepticism towards Hadith and not necessarily revisionism although
[20:57] and not necessarily revisionism although there is also revisionist element here
[20:59] there is also revisionist element here and I'll get to that in a moment
[21:00] and I'll get to that in a moment so so just to give some examples
[21:05] well uh no I'm going to get caught up
[21:07] well uh no I'm going to get caught up for cutting you off I thought you would
[21:08] for cutting you off I thought you would stop um
[21:11] so uh you know these terms are very
[21:14] so uh you know these terms are very contentious and what I often get is when
[21:17] contentious and what I often get is when I'm talking to
[21:19] I'm talking to um fellow Sunni traditionalists they
[21:21] um fellow Sunni traditionalists they lump everyone and anyone into the camp
[21:24] lump everyone and anyone into the camp of revisionism and when they talk about
[21:26] of revisionism and when they talk about any revisionism it's always extreme
[21:28] any revisionism it's always extreme revisionism like that's that's how it's
[21:30] revisionism like that's that's how it's almost portrayed and then there's kind
[21:32] almost portrayed and then there's kind of a rolling of the eyes and saying uh
[21:35] of a rolling of the eyes and saying uh well do we really need this kind of
[21:37] well do we really need this kind of revisionism it's not very uh you know
[21:40] revisionism it's not very uh you know realistic and that this revisionism has
[21:44] realistic and that this revisionism has been beaten back and no one really
[21:45] been beaten back and no one really follows it anymore
[21:47] follows it anymore I so I agree with you that it's really a
[21:49] I so I agree with you that it's really a spectrum
[21:50] spectrum and Scholars fall on the Spectrum and
[21:53] and Scholars fall on the Spectrum and you're saying quadrants so that's even
[21:55] you're saying quadrants so that's even more complex than a spectrum like where
[21:58] more complex than a spectrum like where would you place somebody like Nikolai
[22:00] would you place somebody like Nikolai Sinai on this like revisionist
[22:03] Sinai on this like revisionist traditionalist
[22:05] traditionalist uh Spectrum or or quadrants whatever
[22:07] uh Spectrum or or quadrants whatever you're calling it because to me he I
[22:10] you're calling it because to me he I feel like in our field in quranic
[22:12] feel like in our field in quranic studies
[22:13] studies he's actually more on the side of
[22:15] he's actually more on the side of the closer you'll get to the traditional
[22:18] the closer you'll get to the traditional narrative now but if you're a
[22:20] narrative now but if you're a traditionalist you'll probably see him
[22:21] traditionalist you'll probably see him as a revisionist even an extreme
[22:23] as a revisionist even an extreme recently I saw someone saying he's an
[22:24] recently I saw someone saying he's an extreme revisionist
[22:26] extreme revisionist I think there's just a disconnect
[22:27] I think there's just a disconnect there's like traditionalists and Western
[22:31] there's like traditionalists and Western academics who are operating in the
[22:33] academics who are operating in the mainstream of Western Academia in
[22:35] mainstream of Western Academia in quranic studies
[22:37] quranic studies and Hadith studies it seems like they're
[22:39] and Hadith studies it seems like they're just operating on a different planet
[22:41] just operating on a different planet altogether can you um clarify this a
[22:44] altogether can you um clarify this a little bit
[22:45] little bit sure there are several points there so
[22:47] sure there are several points there so one is whether revisionism is being
[22:49] one is whether revisionism is being beaten back some forms of revisionism
[22:53] beaten back some forms of revisionism uh have definitely sort of been
[22:56] uh have definitely sort of been eliminated shall we say or have been
[22:58] eliminated shall we say or have been marginalized that's certainly true other
[23:00] marginalized that's certainly true other forms remain you know quite
[23:03] forms remain you know quite mainstream so for actually I have an
[23:05] mainstream so for actually I have an article I I always have an article so I
[23:08] article I I always have an article so I have an article that talks about this
[23:10] have an article that talks about this this is my article on the new
[23:12] this is my article on the new historiography of early Islamic history
[23:15] historiography of early Islamic history or early Islam something like that and
[23:17] or early Islam something like that and so I go through and show that you know
[23:20] so I go through and show that you know the a certain set of ideas that you can
[23:22] the a certain set of ideas that you can trace back to hagerism are actually
[23:24] trace back to hagerism are actually quite mainstream and you know a number
[23:27] quite mainstream and you know a number of notable leading Scholars continue to
[23:29] of notable leading Scholars continue to adhere to some of these ideas you know
[23:31] adhere to some of these ideas you know for example this um idea was sort of a
[23:34] for example this um idea was sort of a pan abrahamic or pan abrahamatic
[23:37] pan abrahamic or pan abrahamatic Coalition or or character of earlier
[23:41] Coalition or or character of earlier slam for example and I recently in the
[23:45] slam for example and I recently in the Donna the medical community of Believers
[23:48] Donna the medical community of Believers and you know Juan Cole for example is
[23:51] and you know Juan Cole for example is continues to support that view as well
[23:53] continues to support that view as well um so you have to be careful some
[23:56] um so you have to be careful some revisionist ideas have been marginalized
[23:58] revisionist ideas have been marginalized but others continue to to to be quite
[24:01] but others continue to to to be quite mainstream in my opinion so we have to
[24:04] mainstream in my opinion so we have to be very careful about the specifics here
[24:06] be very careful about the specifics here you know we want to try not to
[24:07] you know we want to try not to generalize so that's the first thing uh
[24:10] generalize so that's the first thing uh the second thing is with Nikolai so
[24:14] the second thing is with Nikolai so I've said this to him that he has sort
[24:17] I've said this to him that he has sort of gotten by
[24:19] of gotten by as some sort of traditionalist or as
[24:22] as some sort of traditionalist or as seen as like a non-revisionist scholar
[24:24] seen as like a non-revisionist scholar when he's actually quite revisionist
[24:26] when he's actually quite revisionist he's just not a revisionist to someone
[24:28] he's just not a revisionist to someone like Crona so then he gets sort of put
[24:31] like Crona so then he gets sort of put in a non-revision but he's actually very
[24:33] in a non-revision but he's actually very revisionist so there are several
[24:35] revisionist so there are several different revisionist camps uh there's
[24:37] different revisionist camps uh there's we might say like this sort of uh
[24:39] we might say like this sort of uh extreme in our Fringe you see earlier
[24:43] extreme in our Fringe you see earlier Islam is basically just a form of
[24:44] Islam is basically just a form of Christianity maybe even as late as the
[24:47] Christianity maybe even as late as the ambassad period and Muhammad didn't
[24:49] ambassad period and Muhammad didn't exist and okay that's the inara people
[24:51] exist and okay that's the inara people uh they have almost no representation as
[24:54] uh they have almost no representation as far as I can tell within this sort of
[24:56] far as I can tell within this sort of you know serious you know major you know
[24:59] you know serious you know major you know scholarship Brothers you know the major
[25:01] scholarship Brothers you know the major Academy so that's but that's one one
[25:04] Academy so that's but that's one one grouping okay so that's inara
[25:07] grouping okay so that's inara and then you have sort of you might
[25:09] and then you have sort of you might select the hegerism
[25:12] select the hegerism influence variety of revisionism which
[25:15] influence variety of revisionism which is the tendency or set of tendencies
[25:16] is the tendency or set of tendencies that I track in my article on um the new
[25:20] that I track in my article on um the new historiography and so this is another
[25:23] historiography and so this is another tendency or set of Tendencies and this
[25:24] tendency or set of Tendencies and this is a cluster of ideas about
[25:26] is a cluster of ideas about um you know this sort of apocalyptic and
[25:30] um you know this sort of apocalyptic and Pan abrahamatic character of earlier
[25:32] Pan abrahamatic character of earlier slam early Muslims didn't call
[25:34] slam early Muslims didn't call themselves Muslims you know per se
[25:35] themselves Muslims you know per se that's sort of a later designation
[25:38] that's sort of a later designation uh it's sort of this set of ideas
[25:41] uh it's sort of this set of ideas um of course apocalyptic system is not
[25:42] um of course apocalyptic system is not restricted to this school of thought
[25:44] restricted to this school of thought there are others who also accept that
[25:46] there are others who also accept that sort of idea but that's a that
[25:48] sort of idea but that's a that particular cluster is another
[25:51] particular cluster is another uh revisionist tenancy we might say
[25:53] uh revisionist tenancy we might say another
[25:55] another tendency oh and some of the people
[25:58] tendency oh and some of the people within that especially Corona and cook
[26:00] within that especially Corona and cook obviously most notably also and
[26:03] obviously most notably also and Shoemaker as well
[26:04] Shoemaker as well they also think that there's something
[26:06] they also think that there's something going on
[26:08] going on with uranic sacred geography some kind
[26:11] with uranic sacred geography some kind of shift occurs there's some sort of
[26:13] of shift occurs there's some sort of Northwestern or Jerusalem at Qibla going
[26:16] Northwestern or Jerusalem at Qibla going on in the early period as well so this
[26:18] on in the early period as well so this is this is another
[26:20] is this is another revisionist school we might call it the
[26:22] revisionist school we might call it the hagerism influenced tendency maybe
[26:24] hagerism influenced tendency maybe school's too strong of a word tendency
[26:26] school's too strong of a word tendency okay there's another revisionist
[26:29] okay there's another revisionist tendency and this is the group of
[26:32] tendency and this is the group of Scholars
[26:33] Scholars that Nikolai is part of Angelica noivert
[26:36] that Nikolai is part of Angelica noivert is another
[26:38] is another and what they do is they accept the
[26:41] and what they do is they accept the additional skeleton
[26:44] additional skeleton they accept the basic outline of the
[26:48] they accept the basic outline of the traditional sources the basic skeleton
[26:49] traditional sources the basic skeleton the traditional geography they accept
[26:51] the traditional geography they accept that and then they take all the content
[26:54] that and then they take all the content and they basically throw it out and they
[26:56] and they basically throw it out and they replace it with this so the traditional
[26:58] replace it with this so the traditional depiction overwhelmingly is this
[27:01] depiction overwhelmingly is this thoroughly you know pager overwhelmingly
[27:03] thoroughly you know pager overwhelmingly Pagan with some Jewish presence in the
[27:06] Pagan with some Jewish presence in the north you know but Mucka in particular
[27:08] north you know but Mucka in particular overwhelmingly Pagan you know uh uh
[27:11] overwhelmingly Pagan you know uh uh setting with only a tiny handful of
[27:14] setting with only a tiny handful of Christians and Jews passing through
[27:17] Christians and Jews passing through um you know it's you know you know one
[27:20] um you know it's you know you know one monk here one traveling Merchant there
[27:22] monk here one traveling Merchant there right overwhelmingly Pagan and then in
[27:26] right overwhelmingly Pagan and then in in youth rib there's pagans and and uh
[27:30] in youth rib there's pagans and and uh and Jews now what this revisionist
[27:34] and Jews now what this revisionist school does is they
[27:37] school does is they take that out and they instead create
[27:40] take that out and they instead create this or posit I should say and they may
[27:42] this or posit I should say and they may be right
[27:43] be right deposit this
[27:46] deposit this extremely
[27:49] extremely um
[27:50] um sort of
[27:51] sort of linked to the main centers of the Middle
[27:54] linked to the main centers of the Middle East
[27:55] East flourishing late antique extremely
[27:58] flourishing late antique extremely Jewish influenced
[28:00] Jewish influenced extremely Christian fluenced milia this
[28:03] extremely Christian fluenced milia this is not at all what the traditional
[28:05] is not at all what the traditional sources depict and I know people try and
[28:07] sources depict and I know people try and say oh look at this one
[28:09] say oh look at this one Trope about a Christian traveler or a
[28:11] Trope about a Christian traveler or a Christian monk right there you know it's
[28:13] Christian monk right there you know it's like literally a handful there's almost
[28:15] like literally a handful there's almost nothing people are really scraping the
[28:16] nothing people are really scraping the bottle of the barrel when they try and
[28:18] bottle of the barrel when they try and find this late antique flourishing
[28:21] find this late antique flourishing Syriac you know Traditions influence
[28:23] Syriac you know Traditions influence Jewish Christian etc etc in the hijaz
[28:26] Jewish Christian etc etc in the hijaz this is just revisionism this this is a
[28:29] this is just revisionism this this is a revisionist duel of thought but because
[28:32] revisionist duel of thought but because it's not as
[28:33] it's not as sort of extreme so to speak as for
[28:35] sort of extreme so to speak as for example the sort of hydrism influence
[28:37] example the sort of hydrism influence school it's sort of often depicted as
[28:39] school it's sort of often depicted as not revisionist but I think that's just
[28:41] not revisionist but I think that's just you know it's just obviously not true if
[28:43] you know it's just obviously not true if they're doing this making this very
[28:45] they're doing this making this very substantial revisions to the cultural
[28:48] substantial revisions to the cultural and you know societal and and
[28:51] and you know societal and and demographic situation that they're
[28:53] demographic situation that they're positing for the hijaz in the time of
[28:55] positing for the hijaz in the time of the Prophet this is clearly a form of
[28:57] the Prophet this is clearly a form of revisionism so in opinion they are
[29:00] revisionism so in opinion they are revisionists even if they don't call
[29:01] revisionists even if they don't call themselves that but that's just my
[29:02] themselves that but that's just my opinion
[29:04] opinion okay that's great but would you say that
[29:08] okay that's great but would you say that there's another group as well who's like
[29:10] there's another group as well who's like in the more traditional Camp neo
[29:13] in the more traditional Camp neo traditional that are not
[29:15] traditional that are not with faith commitments
[29:17] with faith commitments do you feel like because for the way I
[29:20] do you feel like because for the way I see this field
[29:21] see this field as somebody in quranic studies is this
[29:24] as somebody in quranic studies is this last group that you've talked about
[29:25] last group that you've talked about technically everyone is revisionist if
[29:28] technically everyone is revisionist if you question the traditional sources I
[29:31] you question the traditional sources I mean that's what historical critical
[29:33] mean that's what historical critical scholarship its perspective
[29:35] scholarship its perspective from out of the gate is one that is
[29:39] from out of the gate is one that is skeptical of traditional narratives
[29:41] skeptical of traditional narratives dogmas
[29:43] dogmas um they don't take them at face value
[29:44] um they don't take them at face value that is what the historical critical
[29:46] that is what the historical critical perspective is so in that sense everyone
[29:49] perspective is so in that sense everyone is a revisionist or do you feel
[29:51] is a revisionist or do you feel that there are others who are operating
[29:53] that there are others who are operating in the
[29:54] in the kind of mainstream of Western Academy
[29:57] kind of mainstream of Western Academy that don't have faith commitments but
[29:59] that don't have faith commitments but who
[30:01] who kind of are much closer to the tradition
[30:03] kind of are much closer to the tradition you would call them traditional in that
[30:05] you would call them traditional in that sense
[30:07] so maybe the closest you would get I'm
[30:12] so maybe the closest you would get I'm sorry go ahead
[30:13] sorry go ahead and I'm saying specifically in quranic
[30:15] and I'm saying specifically in quranic studies in early Islamic history and
[30:17] studies in early Islamic history and Origins because there are plenty of
[30:18] Origins because there are plenty of people who are operating in the academy
[30:20] people who are operating in the academy who study other periods and don't really
[30:23] who study other periods and don't really look into these issues but I'm talking
[30:25] look into these issues but I'm talking about the specialists in the field
[30:27] about the specialists in the field itself
[30:29] itself sure
[30:30] sure um
[30:31] um I would say that in general there's been
[30:33] I would say that in general there's been a a
[30:35] a a very sizable retreat of traditionalism
[30:40] very sizable retreat of traditionalism um
[30:41] um the closest you'll really get is people
[30:44] the closest you'll really get is people like matsky and Sean Anthony for example
[30:48] like matsky and Sean Anthony for example but they're quite skeptical so the sort
[30:51] but they're quite skeptical so the sort of closest you get is people who will
[30:53] of closest you get is people who will accept the traditional outline but
[30:55] accept the traditional outline but usually don't commit to any details so
[30:58] usually don't commit to any details so they they're like minimal
[30:59] they they're like minimal traditionalists maybe that's a way of
[31:01] traditionalists maybe that's a way of putting it
[31:06] I will actually
[31:09] I would have put Sean Anthony in the
[31:11] I would have put Sean Anthony in the same camp of like accepting the basic
[31:13] same camp of like accepting the basic skeleton of the Sierra but not more than
[31:16] skeleton of the Sierra but not more than that really what you can call a low
[31:18] that really what you can call a low definition not a high definition
[31:20] definition not a high definition version of the Sierra
[31:22] version of the Sierra I feel like cyano is in the same area
[31:24] I feel like cyano is in the same area Gorka is the same like this seems to me
[31:27] Gorka is the same like this seems to me the almost the mainstream of chronic
[31:30] the almost the mainstream of chronic studies to me at least yeah this is
[31:34] studies to me at least yeah this is deadly mainstream that's for sure this
[31:36] deadly mainstream that's for sure this idea of like you accept the basic
[31:39] idea of like you accept the basic basic skeleton uh but usually not
[31:43] basic skeleton uh but usually not details and the details they are putting
[31:45] details and the details they are putting in are you know ones that are being
[31:48] in are you know ones that are being inferred from the Quran and you know
[31:50] inferred from the Quran and you know it's this sort of late antique Syriac
[31:53] it's this sort of late antique Syriac influenced Jewish and Christian kind of
[31:55] influenced Jewish and Christian kind of milia right
[31:57] milia right um
[31:58] um so yeah I
[32:00] so yeah I yeah I I don't know
[32:05] to be well maybe this is a way of
[32:07] to be well maybe this is a way of answering maybe this is a way of
[32:09] answering maybe this is a way of answering the question
[32:13] how many biographies of the Prophet are
[32:15] how many biographies of the Prophet are there now
[32:17] there now by serious mainstream Scholars that go
[32:20] by serious mainstream Scholars that go into any kind of detail
[32:23] into any kind of detail there are very very few I mean just look
[32:26] there are very very few I mean just look for example at Sean Anthony's book on
[32:28] for example at Sean Anthony's book on Muhammad most of that book is not even
[32:30] Muhammad most of that book is not even about Muhammad it's really about
[32:32] about Muhammad it's really about umayyad intellectual culture and courtly
[32:35] umayyad intellectual culture and courtly culture for example you know I think
[32:37] culture for example you know I think that's really telling that that's I
[32:41] that's really telling that that's I think this is basically symptomatic of
[32:42] think this is basically symptomatic of the of the current set of Affairs
[32:45] the of the current set of Affairs um
[32:46] um it the the mo the best you'll get is
[32:49] it the the mo the best you'll get is this kind of minimal historicity this
[32:52] this kind of minimal historicity this kind of as you said this sort of
[32:54] kind of as you said this sort of extremely low resolution image of of you
[32:57] extremely low resolution image of of you know the prophet and his life and times
[32:59] know the prophet and his life and times the skeleton essentially uh but with
[33:03] the skeleton essentially uh but with missing most of the details and usually
[33:07] missing most of the details and usually adding in all of this sort of you know
[33:09] adding in all of this sort of you know late antique Jewish Christian
[33:12] late antique Jewish Christian you know Syriac and philosophilia all
[33:14] you know Syriac and philosophilia all this sort of thing I think that's
[33:15] this sort of thing I think that's probably yeah they're you know the
[33:18] probably yeah they're you know the basically to be blunt
[33:21] basically to be blunt the the era of people like Willie
[33:23] the the era of people like Willie Montgomery watch is just totally over
[33:25] Montgomery watch is just totally over you know this is this is that is not
[33:28] you know this is this is that is not mainstream anymore that is absolutely
[33:30] mainstream anymore that is absolutely the exception that is absolutely Fringe
[33:33] the exception that is absolutely Fringe um
[33:34] um and so yeah so then what we're saying
[33:37] and so yeah so then what we're saying what we're agreeing then is that
[33:39] what we're agreeing then is that really everyone in the western Academy
[33:43] really everyone in the western Academy specializing in these subjects without
[33:45] specializing in these subjects without faith commitments
[33:47] faith commitments is in the revisionist camp of some sort
[33:50] is in the revisionist camp of some sort now it's just a relative thing about how
[33:52] now it's just a relative thing about how revisionist they are Sean Anthony would
[33:54] revisionist they are Sean Anthony would also be considered a revisionist I mean
[33:56] also be considered a revisionist I mean like you said he I mean there are
[33:58] like you said he I mean there are certain things that he doubts in his
[34:00] certain things that he doubts in his book
[34:01] book um but I think it's a relative thing
[34:04] um but I think it's a relative thing in the sense that and I agree with uh
[34:07] in the sense that and I agree with uh Professor Anthony that
[34:09] Professor Anthony that okay it's not going to get to the point
[34:11] okay it's not going to get to the point of the traditional biographies but we
[34:13] of the traditional biographies but we can still know quite a lot about the
[34:16] can still know quite a lot about the figure of the historical Muhammad
[34:18] figure of the historical Muhammad um that can help us understand the Quran
[34:22] um that can help us understand the Quran um
[34:22] um it's not a completely hopeless Endeavor
[34:24] it's not a completely hopeless Endeavor in that sense and we might know
[34:27] in that sense and we might know as much for example as we do like when
[34:29] as much for example as we do like when it comes to the historical Jesus which
[34:31] it comes to the historical Jesus which is not going to be any detailed
[34:33] is not going to be any detailed day-to-day kind of thing
[34:41] basically and if you lower your
[34:43] basically and if you lower your expectations what you get is what you
[34:45] expectations what you get is what you probably get for any historical figure
[34:47] probably get for any historical figure of that time
[34:49] of that time yeah so I would say that this the
[34:52] yeah so I would say that this the basically the spectrum is
[34:54] basically the spectrum is from
[34:56] from um Sean Anthony
[34:58] um Sean Anthony to Patricia Corona I would say that that
[35:02] to Patricia Corona I would say that that is the current mainstream Spectrum
[35:05] is the current mainstream Spectrum that makes sense so it's interesting
[35:07] that makes sense so it's interesting because I follow more on the Sean
[35:09] because I follow more on the Sean Anthony side uh even though to my
[35:11] Anthony side uh even though to my traditionalist colleagues they feel like
[35:13] traditionalist colleagues they feel like I'm on the extreme revisionist side but
[35:15] I'm on the extreme revisionist side but that's what I try to harp in my classes
[35:19] that's what I try to harp in my classes is that really the discourse in the
[35:22] is that really the discourse in the academic setting is quite different than
[35:23] academic setting is quite different than in the public uh discourse when it comes
[35:27] in the public uh discourse when it comes to Islam sure that's that's how I see it
[35:30] to Islam sure that's that's how I see it um all right any other we're already
[35:32] um all right any other we're already almost at 40 minutes uh or we're past 40
[35:36] almost at 40 minutes uh or we're past 40 minutes do you have any other remarks
[35:37] minutes do you have any other remarks before we jump into the 21 reasons or
[35:39] before we jump into the 21 reasons or shall we start with the first reason
[35:43] well there is
[35:46] well there is I want to quickly mention and this is
[35:48] I want to quickly mention and this is what we're just talking about before
[35:50] what we're just talking about before which is that there is this meta that
[35:53] which is that there is this meta that you'll find among
[35:56] you'll find among um
[35:57] um let's say
[35:58] let's say like some Muslim academics for example
[36:01] like some Muslim academics for example like academics who have personal faith
[36:04] like academics who have personal faith commitments I mean
[36:07] commitments I mean um and let's say like maybe like popular
[36:10] um and let's say like maybe like popular apologists the these kinds of people
[36:12] apologists the these kinds of people right there is this narrative and it's a
[36:15] right there is this narrative and it's a very popular narrative so I see this a
[36:16] very popular narrative so I see this a lot that sort of
[36:18] lot that sort of the sort of skeptical
[36:21] the sort of skeptical approach or a skeptical revisionist
[36:24] approach or a skeptical revisionist ideas and so on are you know completely
[36:26] ideas and so on are you know completely outdated and and so forth I think this
[36:30] outdated and and so forth I think this is
[36:31] is basically untrue and what I wanna
[36:34] basically untrue and what I wanna show as you go through the problems with
[36:36] show as you go through the problems with Hadith is that most of these problems
[36:39] Hadith is that most of these problems continue to be advocated by Leading
[36:42] continue to be advocated by Leading Scholars
[36:44] Scholars the other thing I want to
[36:46] the other thing I want to sort of emphasize there is
[36:49] sort of emphasize there is what really matters here because what's
[36:52] what really matters here because what's going on why is there that matter right
[36:54] going on why is there that matter right I mean let's be frank right let's let's
[36:57] I mean let's be frank right let's let's be straightforward about it
[36:59] be straightforward about it the critical some of the critical set
[37:02] the critical some of the critical set some of the critical skeptical
[37:04] some of the critical skeptical scholarship
[37:05] scholarship is coming to conclusions that clash with
[37:09] is coming to conclusions that clash with traditional religious narratives of
[37:11] traditional religious narratives of course
[37:12] course and so there is an attempt
[37:15] and so there is an attempt to sort of discuss
[37:17] to sort of discuss the matter of the field in order to try
[37:20] the matter of the field in order to try and mitigate that threat right so this
[37:23] and mitigate that threat right so this is totally standard this happens with
[37:25] is totally standard this happens with debates about early Christianity for
[37:27] debates about early Christianity for example and the scholarship and the
[37:29] example and the scholarship and the Christianity it's exactly the same this
[37:30] Christianity it's exactly the same this is a totally normal kind of debate that
[37:33] is a totally normal kind of debate that goes on in the meta so you have the
[37:36] goes on in the meta so you have the historical event right then you have
[37:38] historical event right then you have what the scholars say about the event
[37:40] what the scholars say about the event and then you have what people say the
[37:42] and then you have what people say the scholars are saying and so the this sort
[37:44] scholars are saying and so the this sort of meta there's like a meta so you have
[37:46] of meta there's like a meta so you have the history the historiography and
[37:47] the history the historiography and there's like a meta historiography so
[37:49] there's like a meta historiography so what I'm talking about now is the matter
[37:50] what I'm talking about now is the matter historiography and this is the
[37:52] historiography and this is the narratives about what is the dominant
[37:54] narratives about what is the dominant view in the scholarship what's the
[37:55] view in the scholarship what's the majority of you on the scholarship that
[37:57] majority of you on the scholarship that sort of thing and so
[38:00] sort of thing and so the problem with that number one is I
[38:02] the problem with that number one is I think it's not true and I think we've
[38:03] think it's not true and I think we've we've already covered this you know that
[38:05] we've already covered this you know that they're you know very certain kinds of
[38:08] they're you know very certain kinds of revisionism I think remain extremely
[38:09] revisionism I think remain extremely mainstream for example and I think as
[38:11] mainstream for example and I think as we're about to see skepticism is also
[38:14] we're about to see skepticism is also pretty ubiquitous actually uh um not
[38:17] pretty ubiquitous actually uh um not total skepticism most people think we
[38:19] total skepticism most people think we can do something with Hadith but a
[38:21] can do something with Hadith but a general skepticism I think is pretty
[38:23] general skepticism I think is pretty ubiquitous in sort of secular critical
[38:26] ubiquitous in sort of secular critical scholarship on Hadith even now
[38:29] scholarship on Hadith even now um but
[38:30] um but I think one problem with this kind of
[38:32] I think one problem with this kind of meta
[38:33] meta is that it's basically a way of avoiding
[38:36] is that it's basically a way of avoiding actually dealing with the evidence and
[38:39] actually dealing with the evidence and the arguments it's not enough just to
[38:41] the arguments it's not enough just to sort of vaguely say oh this is a fringe
[38:43] sort of vaguely say oh this is a fringe view or something this is a an outdated
[38:45] view or something this is a an outdated view you have to all engage
[38:50] with like hand waving that's what I
[38:53] with like hand waving that's what I that's what I call it it's hand waving
[38:55] that's what I call it it's hand waving away that oh this is fringe oh is this
[38:58] away that oh this is fringe oh is this like the the common that I get is oh
[39:00] like the the common that I get is oh this is this really likely this is very
[39:03] this is this really likely this is very hard to believe but this is where our
[39:05] hard to believe but this is where our field is and I feel like they're
[39:07] field is and I feel like they're misrepresenting the field to the public
[39:09] misrepresenting the field to the public and they're doing that to reassure
[39:11] and they're doing that to reassure themselves and reassure the public now
[39:13] themselves and reassure the public now to be fair I think it's perfectly fine
[39:16] to be fair I think it's perfectly fine to
[39:18] to have criticisms of the historical
[39:20] have criticisms of the historical critical method and come from the
[39:21] critical method and come from the outside and that's valuable and you can
[39:25] outside and that's valuable and you can take that perspective uh I think Dr
[39:27] take that perspective uh I think Dr Brown Jonathan Brown has written an
[39:30] Brown Jonathan Brown has written an article on that that's perfectly fair
[39:32] article on that that's perfectly fair game and that's useful to even
[39:34] game and that's useful to even historical critical scholarship to have
[39:35] historical critical scholarship to have that but then you have to be clear that
[39:37] that but then you have to be clear that you're coming as a Critic of the
[39:38] you're coming as a Critic of the historical critical scholarship in that
[39:39] historical critical scholarship in that mode now I do think Professor Brown can
[39:42] mode now I do think Professor Brown can write in both modes and as you know I'm
[39:44] write in both modes and as you know I'm a believer I'm a Muslim academic as well
[39:46] a believer I'm a Muslim academic as well so that you know you you as a Believer
[39:48] so that you know you you as a Believer you write in two modes one you put your
[39:50] you write in two modes one you put your academic hat on and it's just pure
[39:51] academic hat on and it's just pure academic uh scholarship and you're going
[39:53] academic uh scholarship and you're going to do the historical critical method
[39:55] to do the historical critical method and then when you have faith commitments
[39:57] and then when you have faith commitments you write in a different style and
[40:00] you write in a different style and different rules
[40:01] different rules um so I think that's perfectly Fair
[40:02] um so I think that's perfectly Fair grain and it's not a knock but I just
[40:04] grain and it's not a knock but I just think you have to be clear that this is
[40:05] think you have to be clear that this is what you're doing at this time and not
[40:07] what you're doing at this time and not misrepresent the field and I don't think
[40:09] misrepresent the field and I don't think um I think some people are trying to
[40:12] um I think some people are trying to reassure themselves and everyone else um
[40:13] reassure themselves and everyone else um but yeah sorry for interrupting you know
[40:15] but yeah sorry for interrupting you know uh I got this is
[40:19] no worries but but the key thing is this
[40:21] no worries but but the key thing is this let's just say that it was French let's
[40:24] let's just say that it was French let's just say all the problems I'm about to
[40:25] just say all the problems I'm about to outline let's just say they are Fringe
[40:27] outline let's just say they are Fringe somehow there's been a shift in the
[40:28] somehow there's been a shift in the field whatever
[40:29] field whatever at the end of the day you have to do
[40:32] at the end of the day you have to do each with the evidence and the arguments
[40:34] each with the evidence and the arguments and this is the problem is is that I
[40:37] and this is the problem is is that I think most of the time people are not
[40:40] think most of the time people are not engaging with the actual arguments and
[40:43] engaging with the actual arguments and all of the actual evidence and I I have
[40:46] all of the actual evidence and I I have a problem with that I don't mind people
[40:47] a problem with that I don't mind people disagreeing I've got no problem with
[40:48] disagreeing I've got no problem with that but I want people to actually
[40:50] that but I want people to actually understand what they're disagreeing with
[40:53] understand what they're disagreeing with I'll actually give you an example I have
[40:56] I'll actually give you an example I have a friend I have a salafi friend who who
[40:58] a friend I have a salafi friend who who just did a degree in an Algerian
[41:01] just did a degree in an Algerian University
[41:03] University and his thesis was you know it was you
[41:07] and his thesis was you know it was you know
[41:09] know he's it's a refutation of the you know
[41:14] he's it's a refutation of the you know orientalists the secular critical
[41:16] orientalists the secular critical scholars in regards to Hadith right so
[41:20] scholars in regards to Hadith right so it's like a it's like a more recent
[41:22] it's like a it's like a more recent attempt to engage with
[41:24] attempt to engage with more recent secular critical scholarship
[41:27] more recent secular critical scholarship on Hadith and so I helped him
[41:30] on Hadith and so I helped him sort of understand all of these like you
[41:33] sort of understand all of these like you know what exactly what is shakt actually
[41:35] know what exactly what is shakt actually saying what is his what are his actual
[41:36] saying what is his what are his actual arguments what is Crona actually saying
[41:39] arguments what is Crona actually saying what is motsky actually saying so that
[41:42] what is motsky actually saying so that he could have the strongest possible
[41:45] he could have the strongest possible articulation of these views to try and
[41:47] articulation of these views to try and debunk them so I'm totally happy for
[41:50] debunk them so I'm totally happy for people to come up with criticisms but
[41:52] people to come up with criticisms but what I really want is for people to
[41:53] what I really want is for people to understand what are the actual positions
[41:56] understand what are the actual positions here what is the evidence and what what
[41:58] here what is the evidence and what what are the actual arguments and so that's
[42:01] are the actual arguments and so that's what I'm going to try and provide here
[42:03] what I'm going to try and provide here you know it's no problem at all if you
[42:05] you know it's no problem at all if you want to disagree have a different view
[42:07] want to disagree have a different view no worries but I want people to
[42:10] no worries but I want people to understand the arguments and the
[42:12] understand the arguments and the evidence does that make sense
[42:14] evidence does that make sense yeah that makes a lot of sense so let's
[42:17] yeah that makes a lot of sense so let's start with reason number one Shall We
[42:19] start with reason number one Shall We Begin
[42:21] Begin so give us argument number one Dr little
[42:25] so give us argument number one Dr little so these are approximately
[42:30] so these are approximately listed from the least powerful to the
[42:34] listed from the least powerful to the most or the most trivial to the most
[42:37] most or the most trivial to the most substantial
[42:39] substantial so just keep that in mind and so we're
[42:41] so just keep that in mind and so we're starting with the first sort of wave of
[42:44] starting with the first sort of wave of problems as I see it and that what I
[42:46] problems as I see it and that what I mean by that will become clear as we go
[42:47] mean by that will become clear as we go so the first one is about prior
[42:50] so the first one is about prior probability so the basic Point here is
[42:52] probability so the basic Point here is just that fabrication interpolation
[42:55] just that fabrication interpolation pseudopigraphy are pretty ubiquitous in
[42:59] pseudopigraphy are pretty ubiquitous in late antique and early medieval Pagan
[43:03] late antique and early medieval Pagan Jewish and Christian religiohistorical
[43:06] Jewish and Christian religiohistorical ascriptions and so since false
[43:10] ascriptions and so since false description of various kinds is the norm
[43:12] description of various kinds is the norm in these sort of you know religious you
[43:16] in these sort of you know religious you know religious historical material for
[43:18] know religious historical material for this sort of time period that creates a
[43:21] this sort of time period that creates a reason to
[43:23] reason to be suspicious of the Islamic analogs to
[43:28] be suspicious of the Islamic analogs to that material in this case Hadith so
[43:30] that material in this case Hadith so it's sort of like a general prior
[43:32] it's sort of like a general prior probability that sort of makes sense
[43:36] yeah that makes a lot of sense uh you
[43:39] yeah that makes a lot of sense uh you used a lot of complicated words so for
[43:41] used a lot of complicated words so for our audience can you dumb that down for
[43:43] our audience can you dumb that down for and just give it sorry a couple
[43:45] and just give it sorry a couple sentences
[43:47] sentences yeah so uh pagans Jews and Christians
[43:50] yeah so uh pagans Jews and Christians falsely ascribed their religious
[43:52] falsely ascribed their religious historical material
[43:54] historical material so that just creates a reason to suspect
[43:56] so that just creates a reason to suspect that the same thing may have happened
[43:57] that the same thing may have happened for Muslims with their material
[44:00] for Muslims with their material in other words at that time this thing
[44:02] in other words at that time this thing was common so it's not out of the new
[44:05] was common so it's not out of the new out of the usual that okay perfect okay
[44:08] out of the usual that okay perfect okay let's go with uh but yeah go ahead
[44:11] let's go with uh but yeah go ahead there's there's a bit more to add
[44:13] there's there's a bit more to add because
[44:14] because obviously
[44:16] obviously this is a just an induction and you
[44:18] this is a just an induction and you might say this is a weak induction it's
[44:19] might say this is a weak induction it's possible of course that Muslims were
[44:22] possible of course that Muslims were different maybe the conditions were
[44:24] different maybe the conditions were different right it's possible the
[44:26] different right it's possible the problem though is that the conditions
[44:28] problem though is that the conditions are actually the same so it isn't just
[44:30] are actually the same so it isn't just that all Christians did this Jews did
[44:32] that all Christians did this Jews did this pagans did this so Muslims probably
[44:34] this pagans did this so Muslims probably did this it's stronger than that the
[44:37] did this it's stronger than that the specific kinds of motives and pressures
[44:39] specific kinds of motives and pressures and incentives and conditions that
[44:42] and incentives and conditions that resulted in false description in the
[44:44] resulted in false description in the other cases are equally present for
[44:46] other cases are equally present for early Muslims and this is early intense
[44:49] early Muslims and this is early intense sectarian Conflict for example and
[44:53] sectarian Conflict for example and competing theologies for example
[44:55] competing theologies for example competing dynastic claims competing
[44:57] competing dynastic claims competing families tribes all kinds of factions
[45:00] families tribes all kinds of factions for example
[45:01] for example um and we'll get a bit more into that
[45:03] um and we'll get a bit more into that you know later on but so the point is is
[45:05] you know later on but so the point is is that actually on top of that
[45:09] that actually on top of that material that there's another mechanism
[45:11] material that there's another mechanism that I actually mentioned in the
[45:13] that I actually mentioned in the previous show which is when
[45:16] previous show which is when um when you don't yet have
[45:19] um when you don't yet have a rigorous
[45:21] a rigorous well-established tradition of
[45:24] well-established tradition of scholarship that's evaluating and
[45:26] scholarship that's evaluating and checking and transmitting the material
[45:28] checking and transmitting the material you can just create material so you have
[45:30] you can just create material so you have all the and life is constantly changing
[45:33] all the and life is constantly changing conditions are constantly changing so
[45:35] conditions are constantly changing so people's needs are constantly changing
[45:36] people's needs are constantly changing that's going to generate a pressure an
[45:39] that's going to generate a pressure an incentive a mechanism that is going to
[45:42] incentive a mechanism that is going to be a mechanism for people to just you
[45:45] be a mechanism for people to just you know
[45:46] know assume or infer or lie whatever the
[45:49] assume or infer or lie whatever the motivation is psychologically to create
[45:51] motivation is psychologically to create new material right so you know to
[45:53] new material right so you know to ascribe new things to the problem but
[45:57] ascribe new things to the problem but they believe in the authorities they put
[46:00] they believe in the authorities they put and without their being the control of a
[46:04] and without their being the control of a you know a strong literary tradition and
[46:07] you know a strong literary tradition and uh you know a a robust tradition of
[46:10] uh you know a a robust tradition of scholarship there's just free reign for
[46:11] scholarship there's just free reign for this to sort of to to to occur and so
[46:15] this to sort of to to to occur and so and of course what we see you know and
[46:17] and of course what we see you know and we'll come to this letter but we see
[46:18] we'll come to this letter but we see that yes there is a delay for the rise
[46:21] that yes there is a delay for the rise of systematic scholarship yes there is a
[46:23] of systematic scholarship yes there is a delay for the rise of system and written
[46:25] delay for the rise of system and written transmission so mechanisms are there so
[46:28] transmission so mechanisms are there so it isn't just that Christians and Jews
[46:30] it isn't just that Christians and Jews and pagans did it therefore
[46:32] and pagans did it therefore Muslims did it it's that they were under
[46:34] Muslims did it it's that they were under a specific regime of pressures it's
[46:36] a specific regime of pressures it's exactly exactly also with early Muslims
[46:40] exactly exactly also with early Muslims that
[46:41] that creates already from the get-go a reason
[46:45] creates already from the get-go a reason to be skeptical of the material
[46:47] to be skeptical of the material does that make sense
[46:48] does that make sense yeah that makes a lot of sense and sorry
[46:51] yeah that makes a lot of sense and sorry I'll be uh I got a little tickle in the
[46:53] I'll be uh I got a little tickle in the back of my throat so I have these cough
[46:55] back of my throat so I have these cough drops okay so that's really you've laid
[46:57] drops okay so that's really you've laid out that no worries there's a there was
[47:00] out that no worries there's a there was a motive
[47:01] a motive it was commonly done so we already got
[47:04] it was commonly done so we already got our kind of antennas up and we're gonna
[47:06] our kind of antennas up and we're gonna be very suspicious already from the
[47:08] be very suspicious already from the get-go all right so what's your second
[47:10] get-go all right so what's your second second I don't think that that's a
[47:11] second I don't think that that's a Smoking Gun at all so what's your what's
[47:13] Smoking Gun at all so what's your what's your number two exactly so haditha
[47:17] your number two exactly so haditha recorded in collections right
[47:20] recorded in collections right collections of Hadith also certain kinds
[47:22] collections of Hadith also certain kinds of legal collections for example
[47:25] of legal collections for example and the earliest almost all of the
[47:29] and the earliest almost all of the earliest extant collections that we have
[47:32] earliest extant collections that we have were composed from around 800 onwards
[47:36] were composed from around 800 onwards which is more than a century and a half
[47:38] which is more than a century and a half after the time of the prophet and the
[47:41] after the time of the prophet and the other sort of events of early Islamic
[47:42] other sort of events of early Islamic history so for example
[47:45] history so for example what's the major early biography of the
[47:49] what's the major early biography of the profit that we have right this is the
[47:50] profit that we have right this is the you know the the Surah
[47:52] you know the the Surah uh that's attributed to IBN ishak but we
[47:55] uh that's attributed to IBN ishak but we don't actually have the sir which is
[47:58] don't actually have the sir which is actually called the guitar
[47:59] actually called the guitar what we have is
[48:02] what we have is even hesham's reception
[48:06] even hesham's reception of a transmission
[48:08] of a transmission via El bakari from IBN ishak of his
[48:14] via El bakari from IBN ishak of his and this is pretty common like we don't
[48:16] and this is pretty common like we don't have actually the most of the razak what
[48:19] have actually the most of the razak what we have is the recession
[48:22] we have is the recession by his student is
[48:25] by his student is and he's the speaker the person
[48:28] and he's the speaker the person mediating the material the person who is
[48:30] mediating the material the person who is sort of talking to you in the text you
[48:32] sort of talking to you in the text you know because between you and the
[48:34] know because between you and the material for example in the Musa is
[48:37] material for example in the Musa is actually a dubbery and he's citing in
[48:39] actually a dubbery and he's citing in every instance of the razak that he's
[48:41] every instance of the razak that he's saying
[48:44] um and yet the same thing with
[48:47] um and yet the same thing with for example the same thing with ibnes
[48:49] for example the same thing with ibnes hap and so on and so forth so what we
[48:52] hap and so on and so forth so what we actually have is recensions that are
[48:54] actually have is recensions that are from the 9th century onwards right now
[48:56] from the 9th century onwards right now of course
[48:57] of course some most of that material
[49:00] some most of that material would go back I would say probably most
[49:03] would go back I would say probably most of the material would go back for
[49:04] of the material would go back for example to ibn's haq except where IBN
[49:06] example to ibn's haq except where IBN Hisham will explicitly say you know that
[49:09] Hisham will explicitly say you know that I I've added this and and the same from
[49:11] I I've added this and and the same from Malik and so on but even then even
[49:14] Malik and so on but even then even been accepting the material back to for
[49:16] been accepting the material back to for example people
[49:18] example people things change even between ibnishap for
[49:21] things change even between ibnishap for example and the latest sources things
[49:23] example and the latest sources things may change even in minor ways from
[49:25] may change even in minor ways from Abdullah to adabari and we can actually
[49:27] Abdullah to adabari and we can actually show this with the isnacular analysis
[49:29] show this with the isnacular analysis but let's not get ahead of ourselves
[49:31] but let's not get ahead of ourselves even if we accept it back to ibn's HUB I
[49:33] even if we accept it back to ibn's HUB I mean IBN died between 767 and 770. so
[49:38] mean IBN died between 767 and 770. so we're still more than a century after
[49:41] we're still more than a century after the time of the Prophet so this is the
[49:43] the time of the Prophet so this is the first problem is that the the extant
[49:45] first problem is that the the extant texts in which the material is preserved
[49:48] texts in which the material is preserved is quite a distance
[49:50] is quite a distance from the events that the reports that
[49:54] from the events that the reports that they record that these texts record
[49:56] they record that these texts record purport to describe does that make sense
[49:59] purport to describe does that make sense yeah that makes a lot of sense so to
[50:00] yeah that makes a lot of sense so to summarize and you tell me if I got this
[50:03] summarize and you tell me if I got this right or wrong historical critical
[50:05] right or wrong historical critical Scholars want sources that are
[50:07] Scholars want sources that are contemporaneous to the events that they
[50:09] contemporaneous to the events that they describe or as much as as close as
[50:11] describe or as much as as close as possible you're saying that there's a
[50:13] possible you're saying that there's a distance between those events and the
[50:16] distance between those events and the extant uh material that we have now of
[50:20] extant uh material that we have now of course the traditionalist will counter
[50:21] course the traditionalist will counter and say yes but that's material that's
[50:24] and say yes but that's material that's taken up from previous sources which
[50:27] taken up from previous sources which some might be written some might be oral
[50:29] some might be written some might be oral so again it's not a Smoking Gun yet but
[50:32] so again it's not a Smoking Gun yet but you're kind of building the case I see
[50:33] you're kind of building the case I see is that right
[50:35] is that right yeah that's right okay and by the way
[50:38] yeah that's right okay and by the way the reason why we care about getting as
[50:41] the reason why we care about getting as close as possible
[50:43] close as possible to the events in question is that the
[50:46] to the events in question is that the more time of the more sort of time Gap
[50:48] more time of the more sort of time Gap you have between an event and the you
[50:51] you have between an event and the you know writing down of the account about
[50:52] know writing down of the account about the event the more time there is for
[50:54] the event the more time there is for things to go wrong errors are creep in
[50:55] things to go wrong errors are creep in Distortion to creep in you know uh full
[50:58] Distortion to creep in you know uh full you know contamination interpolation etc
[51:01] you know contamination interpolation etc etc so you want to be you know so now
[51:03] etc so you want to be you know so now this is not you know doesn't always
[51:04] this is not you know doesn't always happen of course but this is a very
[51:07] happen of course but this is a very common problem and so again when there's
[51:10] common problem and so again when there's a long quite a long gap between the
[51:12] a long quite a long gap between the sources recording the you know the the
[51:14] sources recording the you know the the reports and the actual events that the
[51:16] reports and the actual events that the reports are about
[51:19] reports are about the again a reason to be suspicious a
[51:22] the again a reason to be suspicious a reason to doubt
[51:24] reason to doubt so let me ask you uh quranists uh and
[51:28] so let me ask you uh quranists uh and I'm not a quranist but quranists will
[51:30] I'm not a quranist but quranists will often make the argument that look
[51:33] often make the argument that look bukhari and actually just average
[51:34] bukhari and actually just average Muslims will make this argument because
[51:36] Muslims will make this argument because Hadith skepticism contrary to what they
[51:39] Hadith skepticism contrary to what they try to portray online are these
[51:41] try to portray online are these skepticism is an endemic or pandemic
[51:43] skepticism is an endemic or pandemic whatever you want to call it amongst
[51:45] whatever you want to call it amongst Muslims at General average Muslims
[51:46] Muslims at General average Muslims especially the educated ones
[51:48] especially the educated ones um but one of the common things that
[51:50] um but one of the common things that you'll hear is someone say look buhari
[51:53] you'll hear is someone say look buhari wrote this thing 300 years afterward
[51:55] wrote this thing 300 years afterward this is kind of an extreme way of
[51:57] this is kind of an extreme way of putting the point in a very simplistic
[51:59] putting the point in a very simplistic way of putting the point now obviously
[52:01] way of putting the point now obviously this is not exactly correct but is there
[52:04] this is not exactly correct but is there any truth value to that kind is this
[52:06] any truth value to that kind is this similar to what you're saying that okay
[52:09] similar to what you're saying that okay we're not saying that
[52:10] we're not saying that it just was created whole cloth 300
[52:12] it just was created whole cloth 300 years later but we are saying that when
[52:16] years later but we are saying that when what you have the extent material
[52:19] what you have the extent material is at a distance from the events that it
[52:21] is at a distance from the events that it describes this means that you should be
[52:23] describes this means that you should be even more skeptical toward the sources
[52:24] even more skeptical toward the sources is that about right
[52:27] is that about right yeah something like that I actually
[52:28] yeah something like that I actually think that the overwhelming majority of
[52:31] think that the overwhelming majority of the material in the extent sources can
[52:34] the material in the extent sources can be traced back at least to for example
[52:36] be traced back at least to for example the second Islamic Century so let's say
[52:38] the second Islamic Century so let's say the 8th Century more or less and I and
[52:40] the 8th Century more or less and I and you know I'm a practitioner of the
[52:42] you know I'm a practitioner of the Islamic analysis so I think you know in
[52:45] Islamic analysis so I think you know in many cases we can reach back even
[52:47] many cases we can reach back even earlier than let's say for example even
[52:49] earlier than let's say for example even if we can reach back even earlier to you
[52:52] if we can reach back even earlier to you know usually to even
[52:54] know usually to even for example who's operating in the sort
[52:58] for example who's operating in the sort of middle to Mid 8th century and in some
[53:01] of middle to Mid 8th century and in some cases we can go back even further for
[53:03] cases we can go back even further for example to Ottawa who's you know
[53:05] example to Ottawa who's you know operating you know uh let's say half a
[53:09] operating you know uh let's say half a century or a bit more after the time of
[53:12] century or a bit more after the time of the Prophet which is not too far off so
[53:14] the Prophet which is not too far off so there are times we can get closer even
[53:17] there are times we can get closer even well as we'll see I think even half a
[53:19] well as we'll see I think even half a century is ample time for things to go
[53:21] century is ample time for things to go pretty badly wrong in terms of the
[53:23] pretty badly wrong in terms of the transmission of material but you know
[53:25] transmission of material but you know there are ways there are time times when
[53:27] there are ways there are time times when we can reach back earlier than the
[53:29] we can reach back earlier than the extent sources but I would say usually
[53:32] extent sources but I would say usually we're still pretty far off and so we
[53:34] we're still pretty far off and so we still have a problem of you know that
[53:37] still have a problem of you know that there's a gap of you know where there's
[53:39] there's a gap of you know where there's a big question mark between the and then
[53:42] a big question mark between the and then when how far back we can actually
[53:44] when how far back we can actually positively uh you know it's positively
[53:46] positively uh you know it's positively recorded shall we say so again not the
[53:50] recorded shall we say so again not the most damning of reasons so we're still
[53:52] most damning of reasons so we're still early in the list but again it's another
[53:54] early in the list but again it's another reason to be cautious is to be
[53:57] reason to be cautious is to be suspicious
[53:59] suspicious now are you going to speak about uh ikma
[54:02] now are you going to speak about uh ikma is not an analysis later on or would you
[54:06] is not an analysis later on or would you like to because some in the audience
[54:07] like to because some in the audience won't have any idea what that is so
[54:10] won't have any idea what that is so um would you want to speak about that
[54:11] um would you want to speak about that right now
[54:13] right now I wonder if it's bad and also
[54:16] I wonder if it's bad and also for later
[54:18] for later okay when I talk about myself
[54:22] I see all I would say is that based on
[54:25] I see all I would say is that based on the fact that you actually do use this
[54:28] the fact that you actually do use this methodology and refine it yourself
[54:31] methodology and refine it yourself you're actually not on the extreme
[54:33] you're actually not on the extreme skeptic side because the extreme skeptic
[54:36] skeptic side because the extreme skeptic side would be suspicious of the change
[54:39] side would be suspicious of the change of transmission to such an extent that
[54:42] of transmission to such an extent that they would not use ikma at all so you do
[54:46] they would not use ikma at all so you do think that it is possible to use the
[54:48] think that it is possible to use the information in the in both obviously
[54:50] information in the in both obviously it's not identical as the content
[54:52] it's not identical as the content um to date a Hadith when it went into
[54:57] um to date a Hadith when it went into circulation
[54:58] circulation now one of the criticisms that I've
[55:00] now one of the criticisms that I've heard about ikma
[55:03] heard about ikma it seemed a fair criticism
[55:05] it seemed a fair criticism but then there's a counter to that so I
[55:07] but then there's a counter to that so I wanted to see what you think about this
[55:08] wanted to see what you think about this is that the methodology itself
[55:12] is that the methodology itself cannot ever go back to the prophet is
[55:15] cannot ever go back to the prophet is that correct or is that am I getting
[55:16] that correct or is that am I getting that wrong
[55:18] that wrong and if it can't get back to the prophet
[55:21] and if it can't get back to the prophet it's not really a method to figure out
[55:23] it's not really a method to figure out because some people think that I think
[55:26] because some people think that I think what I'm or they think that I'm
[55:27] what I'm or they think that I'm advocating that we use this method
[55:30] advocating that we use this method to winnow down the Hadith to those that
[55:32] to winnow down the Hadith to those that can actually go back to the prophet but
[55:34] can actually go back to the prophet but I feel like the methodology itself
[55:36] I feel like the methodology itself almost presupposes that it doesn't go
[55:38] almost presupposes that it doesn't go back and then that could be a criticism
[55:40] back and then that could be a criticism by the traditionalist to say your very
[55:42] by the traditionalist to say your very method that you use is a priori assuming
[55:45] method that you use is a priori assuming that it doesn't go back to the profit is
[55:46] that it doesn't go back to the profit is that have I misrepresented anything here
[55:49] that have I misrepresented anything here or do you have any thoughts on this so I
[55:52] or do you have any thoughts on this so I wonder if it would be better to save
[55:55] wonder if it would be better to save this to the end as some sort of final
[55:58] this to the end as some sort of final point about well given all the
[56:00] point about well given all the skepticism
[56:01] skepticism can we use Hadith can we go back and so
[56:04] can we use Hadith can we go back and so maybe we can summarize istanical Mass
[56:06] maybe we can summarize istanical Mass analysis then and also address that that
[56:09] analysis then and also address that that point about you know can we ever reach
[56:12] point about you know can we ever reach the profit Etc and so let's let's do
[56:15] the profit Etc and so let's let's do that at the end of this part though
[56:17] that at the end of this part though because I think we should put this out
[56:18] because I think we should put this out with that okay so now we are at Point
[56:21] with that okay so now we are at Point number three point number three is very
[56:23] number three point number three is very straightforward Hadith are absolutely
[56:25] straightforward Hadith are absolutely full of contradictions uh I mean if this
[56:28] full of contradictions uh I mean if this is like very well known I would say even
[56:30] is like very well known I would say even traditionalists you know are pretty well
[56:32] traditionalists you know are pretty well aware of this problem uh obviously they
[56:34] aware of this problem uh obviously they try and get around it we'll maybe come
[56:36] try and get around it we'll maybe come back to that later about whether their
[56:38] back to that later about whether their methods are effective but the basic
[56:40] methods are effective but the basic problem is Hadith are absolutely full of
[56:42] problem is Hadith are absolutely full of contradictions I'll just give you some
[56:43] contradictions I'll just give you some examples
[56:45] examples so
[56:46] so um
[56:47] um concerning the life of the product
[56:50] concerning the life of the product um and this is mostly from the Isles of
[56:53] um and this is mostly from the Isles of this is just what's mentioned by kiss
[56:55] this is just what's mentioned by kiss the
[56:56] the uh and Jones for the most part for
[56:59] uh and Jones for the most part for example in their entries to do with the
[57:01] example in their entries to do with the Sierra literature and the Sierra
[57:02] Sierra literature and the Sierra maharazi literature
[57:04] maharazi literature um
[57:04] um uh in the uh Cambridge history of Arabic
[57:08] uh in the uh Cambridge history of Arabic literature
[57:09] literature um so there are contradictions or there
[57:11] um so there are contradictions or there are conflicting accounts regarding
[57:13] are conflicting accounts regarding uh the identity of Muhammad's first male
[57:16] uh the identity of Muhammad's first male follower the identity of Muhammad's
[57:18] follower the identity of Muhammad's designated Heir the quantity and
[57:20] designated Heir the quantity and identity of Muhammad's wives the
[57:22] identity of Muhammad's wives the quantity and identity of Muhammad's
[57:24] quantity and identity of Muhammad's children the date of Muhammad's birth
[57:28] children the date of Muhammad's birth and the deaths the age of Muhammad's
[57:30] and the deaths the age of Muhammad's first wife upon their marriage the date
[57:32] first wife upon their marriage the date of the change of the direction of the
[57:33] of the change of the direction of the Qibla the date of the Hijra the identity
[57:36] Qibla the date of the Hijra the identity of those who are present at the meeting
[57:38] of those who are present at the meeting and at Aqaba the length of him spent by
[57:42] and at Aqaba the length of him spent by muhammadu Mecca and Medina respectively
[57:44] muhammadu Mecca and Medina respectively the chronological order of Muhammad's
[57:46] the chronological order of Muhammad's raids and battles the identity of those
[57:48] raids and battles the identity of those who participated in said raids and
[57:49] who participated in said raids and battles the scribal author of the Treaty
[57:51] battles the scribal author of the Treaty of al-hudabiya the identity of those who
[57:53] of al-hudabiya the identity of those who were present at the signing of that
[57:55] were present at the signing of that treaty the governor of Medina uh during
[57:58] treaty the governor of Medina uh during Muhammad's absence of the battle of Badr
[57:59] Muhammad's absence of the battle of Badr uh now I want to the reason why I'm
[58:02] uh now I want to the reason why I'm listening this off is there really is a
[58:05] listening this off is there really is a lot like there is really a staggering
[58:07] lot like there is really a staggering amount of contradictions in the real
[58:08] amount of contradictions in the real really want to convey that and we have
[58:10] really want to convey that and we have barely scratched the surface we could go
[58:12] barely scratched the surface we could go on and on so that's in the sort of
[58:14] on and on so that's in the sort of historical material what about exegesis
[58:16] historical material what about exegesis I would say that exegesis is maybe even
[58:18] I would say that exegesis is maybe even worse so let's just take it that I've
[58:20] worse so let's just take it that I've actually looked at which is the um the
[58:23] actually looked at which is the um the exegetical reports about Surah 5 verse
[58:27] exegetical reports about Surah 5 verse 3. so this is the the passage or it's
[58:29] 3. so this is the the passage or it's actually the the particular line where
[58:32] actually the the particular line where God says or you know the speaker says in
[58:35] God says or you know the speaker says in the voice of God
[58:36] the voice of God um today I have perfected or completed
[58:41] um today I have perfected or completed I have perfected or completed for you
[58:45] I have perfected or completed for you your so the question is what was that
[58:47] your so the question is what was that about what's that day
[58:49] about what's that day and so in various replace an unknown day
[58:53] and so in various replace an unknown day no one knows the day or it was a Friday
[58:55] no one knows the day or it was a Friday or it was a Monday and the event was
[58:57] or it was a Monday and the event was unknown or it was the day of immolation
[58:59] unknown or it was the day of immolation which is sort of part of the the
[59:03] which is sort of part of the the um part of the you know uh the month of
[59:05] um part of the you know uh the month of pager or it was the day of artifa or it
[59:09] pager or it was the day of artifa or it was the and the location was unknown or
[59:12] was the and the location was unknown or it was a road or path between Medina and
[59:15] it was a road or path between Medina and Makkah or it was
[59:21] or it was no prophet
[59:24] no prophet the time he was riding a she cat on his
[59:27] the time he was riding a she cat on his she camel out at Mount arafa or he was
[59:29] she camel out at Mount arafa or he was standing on Mount
[59:32] standing on Mount Jerusalem I.E
[59:35] Jerusalem I.E bler shifted and he'll tell us that
[59:37] bler shifted and he'll tell us that unspecified people were chastising the
[59:39] unspecified people were chastising the Arabs for not having memorized the day
[59:42] Arabs for not having memorized the day of this verse being revealed or it was a
[59:45] of this verse being revealed or it was a katabi posing a hypothetical to Omar or
[59:49] katabi posing a hypothetical to Omar or it was specifically a Christian posing a
[59:50] it was specifically a Christian posing a hypothetical Teresa or it was some Jews
[59:53] hypothetical Teresa or it was some Jews chastising Arabs for not having
[59:55] chastising Arabs for not having memorized the day or it was a Jew posing
[59:57] memorized the day or it was a Jew posing a hypothetical dip in Abbas or it was a
[59:59] a hypothetical dip in Abbas or it was a Jew posing hypothetical to Omar or it
[01:00:01] Jew posing hypothetical to Omar or it was a Jewish convert to Islam uh posing
[01:00:05] was a Jewish convert to Islam uh posing the hypothetical to Amar so you know and
[01:00:08] the hypothetical to Amar so you know and this is this is one example when you go
[01:00:11] this is this is one example when you go through the exegetical material these
[01:00:13] through the exegetical material these kinds of contradictions are totally
[01:00:15] kinds of contradictions are totally ubiquitous and for example Herbert Berg
[01:00:18] ubiquitous and for example Herbert Berg in discussing Authority's Corpus of
[01:00:21] in discussing Authority's Corpus of exegetical hadiths specifically from IBN
[01:00:24] exegetical hadiths specifically from IBN Abbas
[01:00:25] Abbas he says and I quote it is not uncommon
[01:00:27] he says and I quote it is not uncommon for IL Abbas hadiths to present three or
[01:00:30] for IL Abbas hadiths to present three or even four contradictory interpretations
[01:00:32] even four contradictory interpretations of the same verse so this is totally
[01:00:35] of the same verse so this is totally normal and you find similar problems in
[01:00:39] normal and you find similar problems in for example legal Hadith as well see if
[01:00:41] for example legal Hadith as well see if you just open up like a a fun enough
[01:00:43] you just open up like a a fun enough collection before you find the same
[01:00:47] collection before you find the same thing okay before you get to the legal
[01:00:50] thing okay before you get to the legal hoodies
[01:00:51] hoodies um I just wanted to talk about the uh
[01:00:54] um I just wanted to talk about the uh exegetical reports which really we're
[01:00:57] exegetical reports which really we're talking about the material from which as
[01:00:59] talking about the material from which as Baba nazool or the occasions of
[01:01:00] Baba nazool or the occasions of Revelation it basically amounts to the
[01:01:03] Revelation it basically amounts to the same thing that when did so and so verse
[01:01:06] same thing that when did so and so verse what was the context of so-and-so verse
[01:01:09] what was the context of so-and-so verse um my own experience because that's what
[01:01:10] um my own experience because that's what I work with exegesis
[01:01:13] I work with exegesis um is exactly the same that I have come
[01:01:15] um is exactly the same that I have come to the conclusion that this is just
[01:01:18] to the conclusion that this is just speculation and it's exegetical
[01:01:21] speculation and it's exegetical speculation that is
[01:01:24] speculation that is uh you know pretending to be history and
[01:01:27] uh you know pretending to be history and it's honestly a lot of the reports seem
[01:01:31] it's honestly a lot of the reports seem very tendentious unlikely they don't
[01:01:33] very tendentious unlikely they don't even look at
[01:01:35] even look at what came right before it the verse
[01:01:38] what came right before it the verse right before the verse right after it
[01:01:40] right before the verse right after it sometimes they don't even look what's in
[01:01:42] sometimes they don't even look what's in that verse itself I mean I have lost all
[01:01:45] that verse itself I mean I have lost all like Reliance on the classical exeges
[01:01:49] like Reliance on the classical exeges honestly when it comes to these kind of
[01:01:51] honestly when it comes to these kind of matters I mean it's just all over the
[01:01:53] matters I mean it's just all over the place and
[01:01:55] place and um yeah so I I very much Concur and I
[01:01:58] um yeah so I I very much Concur and I think that's the state of our field
[01:01:59] think that's the state of our field where
[01:02:00] where um you can't just rely on the sbab and
[01:02:02] um you can't just rely on the sbab and Azul literature and and use that in your
[01:02:04] Azul literature and and use that in your argument I think uh you wouldn't you
[01:02:07] argument I think uh you wouldn't you would you would not be greeted very
[01:02:08] would you would not be greeted very favorably for that and that I agree is
[01:02:11] favorably for that and that I agree is one of the one of the questions that I
[01:02:12] one of the one of the questions that I get from students is that we're all told
[01:02:15] get from students is that we're all told that we need to contextualize the Quran
[01:02:18] that we need to contextualize the Quran um and otherwise we could misunderstand
[01:02:21] um and otherwise we could misunderstand it misinterpret it and especially people
[01:02:23] it misinterpret it and especially people who are more on the reformist side are
[01:02:25] who are more on the reformist side are all about contextualizing the verses not
[01:02:28] all about contextualizing the verses not taking them out of context and using
[01:02:29] taking them out of context and using them in nefarious ways so the question I
[01:02:31] them in nefarious ways so the question I get as well you're taking away the
[01:02:33] get as well you're taking away the Isabella nazool
[01:02:34] Isabella nazool so how are you contextualizing it this
[01:02:36] so how are you contextualizing it this is another question altogether what I
[01:02:38] is another question altogether what I tell them is that you you really have to
[01:02:39] tell them is that you you really have to try to understand the context from the
[01:02:42] try to understand the context from the quranic passage itself and what's
[01:02:43] quranic passage itself and what's surrounding it and before it now of
[01:02:46] surrounding it and before it now of course you do have to rely on a basic
[01:02:47] course you do have to rely on a basic skeleton of the Sira otherwise you have
[01:02:50] skeleton of the Sira otherwise you have very little to work with um but this is
[01:02:52] very little to work with um but this is a long and complicated topic and kind of
[01:02:54] a long and complicated topic and kind of in chronic studies as opposed to Hadith
[01:02:55] in chronic studies as opposed to Hadith but all right so now you're talking
[01:02:57] but all right so now you're talking about the legal Hadith uh can you talk
[01:02:59] about the legal Hadith uh can you talk about that and and by the way the I I do
[01:03:03] about that and and by the way the I I do have like a
[01:03:04] have like a uh you know it's for what I say is for
[01:03:07] uh you know it's for what I say is for every Hadith there is an equal and
[01:03:08] every Hadith there is an equal and opposite Hadith that's really what it
[01:03:10] opposite Hadith that's really what it amounts to you know it's a it's a law I
[01:03:13] amounts to you know it's a it's a law I mean that's absolutely right
[01:03:15] mean that's absolutely right um this issue of exegetical hadiths
[01:03:18] um this issue of exegetical hadiths being exegesis in Disguise this is
[01:03:21] being exegesis in Disguise this is actually a more fundamental problem that
[01:03:22] actually a more fundamental problem that we'll come back to right now I'm just
[01:03:24] we'll come back to right now I'm just citing actually hadith's in the capacity
[01:03:27] citing actually hadith's in the capacity of just direct contradictions but you
[01:03:29] of just direct contradictions but you can infer from this a deeper set of
[01:03:31] can infer from this a deeper set of problems and we'll come back to that but
[01:03:33] problems and we'll come back to that but I think that's that's an excellent point
[01:03:34] I think that's that's an excellent point uh and then finally of course you find
[01:03:36] uh and then finally of course you find similar things with the legal Hadith I
[01:03:38] similar things with the legal Hadith I mean for any topic you'll find
[01:03:40] mean for any topic you'll find conflicting hadiths often ascribed to
[01:03:43] conflicting hadiths often ascribed to the same authorities the same companions
[01:03:45] the same authorities the same companions get invoked for both sides of the debate
[01:03:46] get invoked for both sides of the debate the prophet is frequently you know
[01:03:48] the prophet is frequently you know invoked by both sides of the debate so
[01:03:50] invoked by both sides of the debate so Point number four is pretty
[01:03:51] Point number four is pretty straightforward uh a large number of
[01:03:53] straightforward uh a large number of Hadith like obvious I.E suspiciously
[01:03:57] Hadith like obvious I.E suspiciously look exactly like later religious
[01:04:00] look exactly like later religious sectarian political tribal familial and
[01:04:05] sectarian political tribal familial and other partisan polemical and
[01:04:07] other partisan polemical and apologetical Creations of the kind that
[01:04:09] apologetical Creations of the kind that we would expect to have been created
[01:04:10] we would expect to have been created given the immense conflicts of early
[01:04:13] given the immense conflicts of early Islam uh so this is this is just when
[01:04:16] Islam uh so this is this is just when the you know the prophet is made to say
[01:04:18] the you know the prophet is made to say you know things against group or in
[01:04:20] you know things against group or in favor of a group I mean they're sort of
[01:04:22] favor of a group I mean they're sort of famous example and so the the initial
[01:04:25] famous example and so the the initial Point here is just that it's the sort of
[01:04:27] Point here is just that it's the sort of thing that we would sort of expect most
[01:04:29] thing that we would sort of expect most to be to be created so when we see in
[01:04:32] to be to be created so when we see in the material this thing that was on on a
[01:04:35] the material this thing that was on on a false create hypothesis again it's a
[01:04:37] false create hypothesis again it's a it's an alarm it's a it's a red flag and
[01:04:41] it's an alarm it's a it's a red flag and it becomes more acute when we realize
[01:04:43] it becomes more acute when we realize that often this is coupled with
[01:04:45] that often this is coupled with contradictions right
[01:04:47] contradictions right so the contradictions often will not
[01:04:50] so the contradictions often will not just be like random contradictions
[01:04:51] just be like random contradictions they'll also track like these kinds of
[01:04:55] they'll also track like these kinds of sectarian and other divisions so things
[01:04:57] sectarian and other divisions so things like for example who's the first male
[01:05:00] like for example who's the first male convert you know
[01:05:05] Ali or someone else and
[01:05:08] Ali or someone else and um you know Ali was it othman and so on
[01:05:11] um you know Ali was it othman and so on and so forth so um
[01:05:14] and so forth so um uh yeah this is the the fourth problem
[01:05:16] uh yeah this is the the fourth problem it's just that you know there is a lot
[01:05:18] it's just that you know there is a lot of what looks like what looks exactly
[01:05:21] of what looks like what looks exactly like you know sectarian and other sort
[01:05:24] like you know sectarian and other sort of propaganda in the form of Hadith and
[01:05:27] of propaganda in the form of Hadith and that's often coupled with contradictions
[01:05:29] that's often coupled with contradictions as well which then makes it seem even
[01:05:31] as well which then makes it seem even more likely that what we're dealing with
[01:05:32] more likely that what we're dealing with is some kind of ideologically driven
[01:05:35] is some kind of ideologically driven false creations and this is you know I
[01:05:37] false creations and this is you know I think you know another recurring problem
[01:05:39] think you know another recurring problem across Hadith
[01:05:42] okay but a traditionalist might ask you
[01:05:45] okay but a traditionalist might ask you and it's a it's a fair question are
[01:05:48] and it's a it's a fair question are these problems the one that you
[01:05:49] these problems the one that you mentioned here which is
[01:05:51] mentioned here which is hey these look suspicious the prophet is
[01:05:54] hey these look suspicious the prophet is mentioning a group there's a later
[01:05:55] mentioning a group there's a later theological issue that's being back
[01:05:57] theological issue that's being back projected onto the prophet or the third
[01:06:00] projected onto the prophet or the third uh argument that you raised about
[01:06:01] uh argument that you raised about contradictions is this the case if we
[01:06:04] contradictions is this the case if we just limit our analysis to the sahih
[01:06:08] just limit our analysis to the sahih collections or or so he reports or is it
[01:06:12] collections or or so he reports or is it if we're looking at because one of the
[01:06:14] if we're looking at because one of the criticisms about certain Western
[01:06:16] criticisms about certain Western Scholars is that they looked at
[01:06:18] Scholars is that they looked at unreliable reports and then raised their
[01:06:21] unreliable reports and then raised their arguments based on that so
[01:06:23] arguments based on that so what about what's already been winnowed
[01:06:26] what about what's already been winnowed away by the
[01:06:27] away by the uh traditional Scholars and what's left
[01:06:31] uh traditional Scholars and what's left is that susceptible to point number
[01:06:33] is that susceptible to point number three and four that you've raised
[01:06:36] three and four that you've raised uh yeah of course so okay the
[01:06:39] uh yeah of course so okay the traditional Scholars were actually
[01:06:40] traditional Scholars were actually pretty good
[01:06:42] pretty good at eliminating contradictions and we'll
[01:06:45] at eliminating contradictions and we'll maybe we'll come back to this but they
[01:06:46] maybe we'll come back to this but they actually part of their sort of modus
[01:06:48] actually part of their sort of modus operandi was to adjudicate between
[01:06:50] operandi was to adjudicate between conflicting Hadith so there aren't that
[01:06:53] conflicting Hadith so there aren't that many contradictions within the sahih
[01:06:55] many contradictions within the sahih material so to speak there are some uh
[01:06:57] material so to speak there are some uh and you can find lists if you're
[01:06:59] and you can find lists if you're interested you know obviously and this
[01:07:01] interested you know obviously and this is talking about
[01:07:02] is talking about material of course so for example you
[01:07:04] material of course so for example you can find you know lists of
[01:07:06] can find you know lists of contradictions in Sunni Hadith of course
[01:07:08] contradictions in Sunni Hadith of course um so uh there are some but generally uh
[01:07:13] um so uh there are some but generally uh you know not so much but what you will
[01:07:15] you know not so much but what you will find is these kinds of you know sort of
[01:07:20] find is these kinds of you know sort of partisan material you will find this in
[01:07:22] partisan material you will find this in in sahi Hadith as well you know hadiths
[01:07:25] in sahi Hadith as well you know hadiths that are taking sides in in debates I
[01:07:27] that are taking sides in in debates I mean even just things like saying the
[01:07:29] mean even just things like saying the caliphate should belong to the Croatian
[01:07:31] caliphate should belong to the Croatian and these kinds of ideas I mean it's
[01:07:33] and these kinds of ideas I mean it's just you know I mean that's that's in
[01:07:35] just you know I mean that's that's in the sahih material for example so uh now
[01:07:39] the sahih material for example so uh now I'm distinguishing this though from
[01:07:40] I'm distinguishing this though from anachronisms which is the next problem
[01:07:43] anachronisms which is the next problem these kinds of problems aren't
[01:07:45] these kinds of problems aren't necessarily inherently anachronistic
[01:07:47] necessarily inherently anachronistic right like you know if the prophet could
[01:07:49] right like you know if the prophet could have you know taken sides between you
[01:07:52] have you know taken sides between you know sectarian squabbles you could I
[01:07:54] know sectarian squabbles you could I mean like different like tribal groups
[01:07:56] mean like different like tribal groups for example and so on possible so they I
[01:07:59] for example and so on possible so they I want to I'm trying to distinguish this
[01:08:01] want to I'm trying to distinguish this kind or like you know Ali could have
[01:08:03] kind or like you know Ali could have been the Scribe or Earthman could have
[01:08:05] been the Scribe or Earthman could have been describe you see what I'm saying
[01:08:06] been describe you see what I'm saying like so I'm trying to distinguish that
[01:08:08] like so I'm trying to distinguish that from the next problem which is one of
[01:08:10] from the next problem which is one of anachronisms shall we jump straight to
[01:08:12] anachronisms shall we jump straight to that
[01:08:13] that sure yeah and then if with the
[01:08:15] sure yeah and then if with the anachronisms if you could also answer
[01:08:17] anachronisms if you could also answer why would it be problematic that
[01:08:20] why would it be problematic that the Hadith says that the caliphate
[01:08:23] the Hadith says that the caliphate should remain with the qurish like why
[01:08:25] should remain with the qurish like why would that be a problem uh
[01:08:26] would that be a problem uh traditionalists wouldn't have a charm
[01:08:27] traditionalists wouldn't have a charm with that
[01:08:32] um
[01:08:33] um this is problem number five and this one
[01:08:36] this is problem number five and this one is another sort of classic problem you
[01:08:39] is another sort of classic problem you know Gold Series you know talks about
[01:08:41] know Gold Series you know talks about this a lot for example Fred Donna also
[01:08:44] this a lot for example Fred Donna also uh devotes some time to this in his book
[01:08:47] uh devotes some time to this in his book on narratives of Islamic Origins
[01:08:53] quickly
[01:08:57] talking about or in later terms later
[01:09:01] talking about or in later terms later institutions later events later
[01:09:04] institutions later events later phenomena
[01:09:06] phenomena and so this is things like the cat for
[01:09:08] and so this is things like the cat for example or certain kind of sex like the
[01:09:12] example or certain kind of sex like the Hawaii or the tyranny of the Umayyads or
[01:09:16] Hawaii or the tyranny of the Umayyads or the you know the rebellion of the isawea
[01:09:20] the you know the rebellion of the isawea or you know the Abbasid Revolution so I
[01:09:23] or you know the Abbasid Revolution so I think these are sort of you know pretty
[01:09:24] think these are sort of you know pretty famous and well known uh so this is the
[01:09:27] famous and well known uh so this is the the problem number five is that Hadith
[01:09:29] the problem number five is that Hadith are referencing all of these later
[01:09:31] are referencing all of these later events and so it looks like Hadith were
[01:09:34] events and so it looks like Hadith were created leader in response to and in
[01:09:37] created leader in response to and in relation to these later events these
[01:09:39] relation to these later events these later sex these later institutions and
[01:09:41] later sex these later institutions and so on and so forth so here is where you
[01:09:44] so on and so forth so here is where you could say that the historical critical
[01:09:45] could say that the historical critical perspective comes with its
[01:09:48] perspective comes with its presuppositions one of them so Dr Brown
[01:09:51] presuppositions one of them so Dr Brown talks about this that look if you think
[01:09:53] talks about this that look if you think the prophet is a prophet then he
[01:09:56] the prophet is a prophet then he prophesizes and so your a priori ruling
[01:09:59] prophesizes and so your a priori ruling that out which is a problem uh on their
[01:10:02] that out which is a problem uh on their perspective
[01:10:03] perspective um I personally
[01:10:05] um I personally don't think that that's what even though
[01:10:08] don't think that that's what even though the word prophet and prophecy but really
[01:10:10] the word prophet and prophecy but really the prophecies that seem to be in the
[01:10:12] the prophecies that seem to be in the Quran
[01:10:14] Quran and thus go back to the prophet Muhammad
[01:10:16] and thus go back to the prophet Muhammad they're related to the end of I mean the
[01:10:20] they're related to the end of I mean the next life the end of the world that kind
[01:10:22] next life the end of the world that kind of thing as opposed to
[01:10:24] of thing as opposed to fortune telling kind of thing as I see
[01:10:26] fortune telling kind of thing as I see it but uh how would you respond to that
[01:10:28] it but uh how would you respond to that accusation and or did you just take that
[01:10:30] accusation and or did you just take that and yeah yeah that's the problem with
[01:10:33] and yeah yeah that's the problem with the historical critical method or it
[01:10:34] the historical critical method or it might be a problem with you it might not
[01:10:36] might be a problem with you it might not be no
[01:10:38] be no I totally disagree I think that's it's
[01:10:39] I totally disagree I think that's it's not a problem at all and I think that
[01:10:41] not a problem at all and I think that when people are saying this they're not
[01:10:43] when people are saying this they're not engaging this is a classic example they
[01:10:46] engaging this is a classic example they are not engaging with the arguments or
[01:10:47] are not engaging with the arguments or at least
[01:10:49] at least they're not engaging with the stickman
[01:10:51] they're not engaging with the stickman arguments they're not engaging with the
[01:10:53] arguments they're not engaging with the stronger arguments they're engaging with
[01:10:54] stronger arguments they're engaging with yeah what would you say to someone who
[01:10:56] yeah what would you say to someone who says that's it you've a priority ruled
[01:10:58] says that's it you've a priority ruled out the very thing that we believe in
[01:11:00] out the very thing that we believe in which is it's a prophet that can
[01:11:01] which is it's a prophet that can prophesize how would you respond to that
[01:11:03] prophesize how would you respond to that right right I think that's completely
[01:11:06] right right I think that's completely false I think this is this is a really
[01:11:09] false I think this is this is a really good example of the problem I mentioned
[01:11:12] good example of the problem I mentioned at the beginning in The Meta problem
[01:11:14] at the beginning in The Meta problem shall we say of people not engaging
[01:11:17] shall we say of people not engaging ligaments and they're or in this case
[01:11:20] ligaments and they're or in this case people are not engaging with the steel
[01:11:23] people are not engaging with the steel man version of the yeah argument the
[01:11:28] man version of the yeah argument the stronger version of the argument which
[01:11:29] stronger version of the argument which can in the literature especially
[01:11:31] can in the literature especially philosophical literature it's out there
[01:11:32] philosophical literature it's out there it's not like this is hidden you can
[01:11:34] it's not like this is hidden you can find it in lectures on YouTube as well
[01:11:35] find it in lectures on YouTube as well and so on and so forth this material is
[01:11:37] and so on and so forth this material is totally available so I this really
[01:11:39] totally available so I this really bothers me actually that people say this
[01:11:41] bothers me actually that people say this and they're not engaging with the
[01:11:43] and they're not engaging with the arguments I don't think this has got
[01:11:44] arguments I don't think this has got anything to do with axioms you could
[01:11:46] anything to do with axioms you could build you know this has nothing to do
[01:11:47] build you know this has nothing to do with whether or not you believe that
[01:11:48] with whether or not you believe that like let me put it a different way I'm
[01:11:51] like let me put it a different way I'm not ruling out Miracles I'm not ruling
[01:11:53] not ruling out Miracles I'm not ruling out guard I'm not ruling out prophecy
[01:11:55] out guard I'm not ruling out prophecy I'm not ruling out any of that I I'm
[01:11:57] I'm not ruling out any of that I I'm happy at least you know maybe there are
[01:12:00] happy at least you know maybe there are some well whatever I'm happy to concede
[01:12:03] some well whatever I'm happy to concede for the sake of argument that prophecy
[01:12:06] for the sake of argument that prophecy is possible Miracles are possible other
[01:12:09] is possible Miracles are possible other kinds of Supernatural things are
[01:12:11] kinds of Supernatural things are possible or Grant at all the argument
[01:12:14] possible or Grant at all the argument still stands because it's not based on
[01:12:16] still stands because it's not based on an a priori rejection of those things
[01:12:18] an a priori rejection of those things this is completely untrue at least the
[01:12:21] this is completely untrue at least the steel man version the strong version the
[01:12:22] steel man version the strong version the version that I agree with is not based
[01:12:24] version that I agree with is not based on that at all so the first is in
[01:12:27] on that at all so the first is in general this is appealing to Prior
[01:12:29] general this is appealing to Prior probability just a stable knowledge
[01:12:34] what normally explains things like this
[01:12:37] what normally explains things like this when describing history is
[01:12:39] when describing history is that EX
[01:12:41] that EX claimed by genuine prophecy or most of
[01:12:44] claimed by genuine prophecy or most of the time is that explained by
[01:12:46] the time is that explained by post-factor creation well there are
[01:12:48] post-factor creation well there are times when we can actually test it
[01:12:49] times when we can actually test it because the prophecies will
[01:12:52] because the prophecies will be really accurate up to a point and
[01:12:54] be really accurate up to a point and then suddenly they were totally wrong a
[01:12:57] then suddenly they were totally wrong a simple explanation for that which is
[01:12:59] simple explanation for that which is quite common for extended pieces of
[01:13:01] quite common for extended pieces of Prophecy right so like this is what
[01:13:04] Prophecy right so like this is what won't necessarily apply to Hadith
[01:13:05] won't necessarily apply to Hadith because Hadith are often kind of you
[01:13:07] because Hadith are often kind of you know short or limited but for extended
[01:13:09] know short or limited but for extended pieces of Prophecy uh the simple
[01:13:12] pieces of Prophecy uh the simple explanation you can hear when you can
[01:13:14] explanation you can hear when you can see this sort of feature is
[01:13:16] see this sort of feature is the text was written at the juncture
[01:13:18] the text was written at the juncture between
[01:13:20] between like after it was accurately
[01:13:21] like after it was accurately prophesizing the events and before it
[01:13:23] prophesizing the events and before it suddenly loses its prophetical ability
[01:13:25] suddenly loses its prophetical ability that's the point at which the text was
[01:13:27] that's the point at which the text was written so it was actually written after
[01:13:29] written so it was actually written after all the events it got right that's why
[01:13:30] all the events it got right that's why it gets them right and then at the point
[01:13:32] it gets them right and then at the point which suddenly gets everything wrong
[01:13:33] which suddenly gets everything wrong that's when the person was actually
[01:13:35] that's when the person was actually making predictions and of course did not
[01:13:37] making predictions and of course did not have access to anywhere near the
[01:13:38] have access to anywhere near the sufficient sort of you know incredible
[01:13:40] sufficient sort of you know incredible amount of data you would need to make
[01:13:42] amount of data you would need to make accurate predictions about the future so
[01:13:44] accurate predictions about the future so and that's common this is a common sort
[01:13:47] and that's common this is a common sort of dating method in the already creates
[01:13:50] of dating method in the already creates a a reason to doubt with this kind of
[01:13:52] a a reason to doubt with this kind of material in general a lot of it is just
[01:13:54] material in general a lot of it is just obviously demonstrably false that's the
[01:13:56] obviously demonstrably false that's the first problem the second problem just in
[01:13:58] first problem the second problem just in general
[01:13:59] general is that supernatural phenomena Miracles
[01:14:03] is that supernatural phenomena Miracles magic etc etc all these kinds of
[01:14:05] magic etc etc all these kinds of phenomena have a vanishingly low prior
[01:14:08] phenomena have a vanishingly low prior probability of explaining a report or a
[01:14:11] probability of explaining a report or a text or anything like that right or
[01:14:13] text or anything like that right or almost never right and most people
[01:14:16] almost never right and most people understand this and get this
[01:14:18] understand this and get this um actually what would be let me give
[01:14:22] um actually what would be let me give you an example if I said to you that I
[01:14:25] you an example if I said to you that I went down the street to buy some
[01:14:28] went down the street to buy some groceries
[01:14:29] groceries would you believe me
[01:14:34] yeah I would
[01:14:40] why would you believe me
[01:14:44] that's within the realm of possibility I
[01:14:46] that's within the realm of possibility I I don't uh suspect any motivation here
[01:14:51] I don't uh suspect any motivation here um
[01:14:52] um it's a mundane thing and there's nothing
[01:14:55] it's a mundane thing and there's nothing there's nothing to make me suspicious
[01:14:58] there's nothing to make me suspicious yeah what that's
[01:15:00] yeah what that's true there that people go down the
[01:15:03] true there that people go down the street all the time and what normally
[01:15:05] street all the time and what normally explains someone saying I went down the
[01:15:06] explains someone saying I went down the street to get groceries is that they
[01:15:08] street to get groceries is that they went down the street to get groceries
[01:15:10] went down the street to get groceries right there's so there's like an
[01:15:11] right there's so there's like an overwhelming prior probability at play
[01:15:13] overwhelming prior probability at play there that allows us to accept that as
[01:15:15] there that allows us to accept that as sufficient evidence for that to
[01:15:17] sufficient evidence for that to establish that kind of probably that
[01:15:18] establish that kind of probably that kind of uh proposition with a fair
[01:15:21] kind of uh proposition with a fair degree of confidence right so this is
[01:15:23] degree of confidence right so this is this is using established background
[01:15:25] this is using established background knowledge now what if I said to you I
[01:15:27] knowledge now what if I said to you I have a nuclear bomb hidden under my bed
[01:15:30] have a nuclear bomb hidden under my bed would you believe it I'd say probably
[01:15:33] would you believe it I'd say probably not no
[01:15:35] not no and what if like 10 people like 10 of my
[01:15:37] and what if like 10 people like 10 of my friends family members were like oh yeah
[01:15:39] friends family members were like oh yeah he's got nuclear bomb under his bed
[01:15:40] he's got nuclear bomb under his bed would you believe I have an actual
[01:15:42] would you believe I have an actual nuclear bombing in my bed
[01:15:44] nuclear bombing in my bed probably not I think he might have a
[01:15:46] probably not I think he might have a another bomb under your bed right so
[01:15:49] another bomb under your bed right so sure for sure if 10 other people go out
[01:15:51] sure for sure if 10 other people go out then I might you know want to call the
[01:15:53] then I might you know want to call the cops on you
[01:15:55] cops on you sure they may be it's not necessarily
[01:15:58] sure they may be it's not necessarily distant falsification it could be
[01:16:00] distant falsification it could be something has been seen and you know I
[01:16:03] something has been seen and you know I mean there's there's room there but the
[01:16:04] mean there's there's room there but the point is it's very or use almost rule
[01:16:08] point is it's very or use almost rule out it's not actually a prior but you
[01:16:10] out it's not actually a prior but you basically rule out
[01:16:11] basically rule out actually have a nuclear because
[01:16:14] actually have a nuclear because those are really rare and hard to obtain
[01:16:16] those are really rare and hard to obtain and so on and so forth so it just seems
[01:16:18] and so on and so forth so it just seems inherently improbable right like people
[01:16:20] inherently improbable right like people don't normally have access to something
[01:16:21] don't normally have access to something like this some normal person just
[01:16:22] like this some normal person just wouldn't have access to something like
[01:16:24] wouldn't have access to something like this so therefore it just seems
[01:16:25] this so therefore it just seems inherently improbable as a claim right
[01:16:27] inherently improbable as a claim right so now what about if I said oh I have I
[01:16:31] so now what about if I said oh I have I have a flying saucer an actual working
[01:16:33] have a flying saucer an actual working functioning flying saucer from Mars in
[01:16:37] functioning flying saucer from Mars in my garage would you would you believe me
[01:16:40] my garage would you would you believe me no I would not
[01:16:42] no I would not right and so the reason is is that now
[01:16:46] right and so the reason is is that now we're appealing to things that are
[01:16:49] we're appealing to things that are totally beyond our established
[01:16:51] totally beyond our established background they're not actually totally
[01:16:52] background they're not actually totally because in principle we do have things
[01:16:53] because in principle we do have things like we do have aircrafts and so on but
[01:16:56] like we do have aircrafts and so on but it's like now I'm appealing to something
[01:16:57] it's like now I'm appealing to something that's pretty like almost beyond our
[01:16:59] that's pretty like almost beyond our established background knowledge
[01:17:02] established background knowledge and something that has never been
[01:17:04] and something that has never been independently confirmed and you see
[01:17:06] independently confirmed and you see where I'm going with this it's like this
[01:17:08] where I'm going with this it's like this is actually the kind of reasoning that
[01:17:09] is actually the kind of reasoning that we're applying here to dealing with
[01:17:10] we're applying here to dealing with fugitive Supernatural explanations for
[01:17:14] fugitive Supernatural explanations for texts is actually just the same kind of
[01:17:16] texts is actually just the same kind of pro like process the same kind of
[01:17:17] pro like process the same kind of reasoning process the same kind of
[01:17:18] reasoning process the same kind of appeals to Prior probability Reliance
[01:17:20] appeals to Prior probability Reliance and establish background knowledge that
[01:17:21] and establish background knowledge that we use all the time everyone gets this
[01:17:24] we use all the time everyone gets this in pretty much any other context we're
[01:17:26] in pretty much any other context we're just being consistent and applying that
[01:17:27] just being consistent and applying that in these contexts as well what normally
[01:17:30] in these contexts as well what normally explains fugitively Supernatural things
[01:17:32] explains fugitively Supernatural things is going to be anything other than that
[01:17:35] is going to be anything other than that the supernatural thing actually occurred
[01:17:37] the supernatural thing actually occurred this is just overwhelming established
[01:17:39] this is just overwhelming established background knowledge you know so if I
[01:17:40] background knowledge you know so if I told you I levitated you pretty much
[01:17:42] told you I levitated you pretty much never believe it right not never
[01:17:44] never believe it right not never obviously there are some conditions
[01:17:45] obviously there are some conditions extreme conditions or very rigorous
[01:17:47] extreme conditions or very rigorous verification but generally if I just
[01:17:49] verification but generally if I just said oh you know I levitated you
[01:17:51] said oh you know I levitated you wouldn't believe it you know if I said
[01:17:53] wouldn't believe it you know if I said that I
[01:17:54] that I um Ed came off and then it reattached
[01:17:57] um Ed came off and then it reattached again and again again you wouldn't
[01:17:58] again and again again you wouldn't believe I said I shot laser beams out of
[01:18:00] believe I said I shot laser beams out of my eyes you would not believe it because
[01:18:02] my eyes you would not believe it because these things have a vanishingly low
[01:18:06] these things have a vanishingly low prior probability of actually explaining
[01:18:08] prior probability of actually explaining a claim like that a story like that you
[01:18:11] a claim like that a story like that you know a report like that so we just apply
[01:18:13] know a report like that so we just apply exactly the same reasoning to reports of
[01:18:18] exactly the same reasoning to reports of for example you know prophecy coming
[01:18:21] for example you know prophecy coming true and so on and so forth it just
[01:18:22] true and so on and so forth it just seems inherently more likely that what
[01:18:25] seems inherently more likely that what explains hadith's seemingly prophesying
[01:18:28] explains hadith's seemingly prophesying uh accurately various events is that the
[01:18:32] uh accurately various events is that the hadiths were created after in response
[01:18:34] hadiths were created after in response to and engaging with and at those
[01:18:37] to and engaging with and at those Institute at terminology
[01:18:39] Institute at terminology etc etc
[01:18:41] etc etc great and I would add and I think you've
[01:18:44] great and I would add and I think you've made this point before that we could
[01:18:46] made this point before that we could compare the Quran with the Hadith
[01:18:48] compare the Quran with the Hadith literature when it comes to these this
[01:18:50] literature when it comes to these this kind of phenomenon
[01:18:51] kind of phenomenon and we could even so in the Quran there
[01:18:54] and we could even so in the Quran there are really no prophecies like that
[01:18:56] are really no prophecies like that there's only one about the Romans versus
[01:18:58] there's only one about the Romans versus the Persians and even that is debatable
[01:19:01] the Persians and even that is debatable um
[01:19:02] um and then also there's and I don't know
[01:19:04] and then also there's and I don't know if this is one of your points maybe it's
[01:19:06] if this is one of your points maybe it's a separate point but there seems to be a
[01:19:08] a separate point but there seems to be a disjuncture between the Quran which
[01:19:10] disjuncture between the Quran which we've agreed goes back pretty far back
[01:19:13] we've agreed goes back pretty far back and the Hadith
[01:19:16] and the Hadith so even when it comes to a simple so
[01:19:19] so even when it comes to a simple so what I was thinking of when you were
[01:19:20] what I was thinking of when you were saying all of this were those kind of
[01:19:21] saying all of this were those kind of reports that talk about well after I die
[01:19:24] reports that talk about well after I die there will be
[01:19:26] there will be rightly guided caliphs and then there'll
[01:19:27] rightly guided caliphs and then there'll be Kings after that Etc it's using
[01:19:30] be Kings after that Etc it's using terminology in a way that's not used in
[01:19:33] terminology in a way that's not used in the same way in the Quran so Caleb
[01:19:35] the same way in the Quran so Caleb Khalifa is used in the Quran but it's
[01:19:37] Khalifa is used in the Quran but it's used in a totally different context even
[01:19:39] used in a totally different context even the word very appropriate to this I
[01:19:41] the word very appropriate to this I think is the word Sunnah Sunnah in the
[01:19:44] think is the word Sunnah Sunnah in the Quran is used in a very different way
[01:19:45] Quran is used in a very different way than Sunnah as used later which to me is
[01:19:48] than Sunnah as used later which to me is very interesting it the Quran seems to
[01:19:50] very interesting it the Quran seems to be
[01:19:51] be quote unquote oblivious to the way it
[01:19:54] quote unquote oblivious to the way it will later become used the term
[01:19:57] will later become used the term um and so that's something that we
[01:19:58] um and so that's something that we should think about I think
[01:20:00] should think about I think um but maybe this is another one yes I
[01:20:02] um but maybe this is another one yes I don't know
[01:20:03] don't know this is this is right and so the the
[01:20:05] this is this is right and so the the point about the linguistic difference is
[01:20:08] point about the linguistic difference is um Fred Donna the terminological Gap and
[01:20:11] um Fred Donna the terminological Gap and the way that Hadith are sort of
[01:20:12] the way that Hadith are sort of basically have a later terminology and
[01:20:15] basically have a later terminology and uses and so on and the Quran is more
[01:20:17] uses and so on and the Quran is more archaic in comparison to that and then
[01:20:19] archaic in comparison to that and then the point about just the difference in
[01:20:21] the point about just the difference in the kinds of
[01:20:22] the kinds of prophecies that you would find in Hadith
[01:20:25] prophecies that you would find in Hadith this is the Quran
[01:20:27] this is the Quran makes that point uh another mix and I
[01:20:31] makes that point uh another mix and I think this is a really clever argument
[01:20:33] think this is a really clever argument and this for me is the nail in the
[01:20:34] and this for me is the nail in the coffin on this issue right
[01:20:37] coffin on this issue right there are different kinds of prophecies
[01:20:38] there are different kinds of prophecies in Hadith
[01:20:40] in Hadith different kinds of anachronisms in
[01:20:41] different kinds of anachronisms in Hadith
[01:20:43] Hadith some of them
[01:20:44] some of them are unambiguously references to things
[01:20:48] are unambiguously references to things in later Islamic history which pretty
[01:20:50] in later Islamic history which pretty much I think all reasonable interpreters
[01:20:54] much I think all reasonable interpreters would agree like for example the Hadith
[01:20:56] would agree like for example the Hadith talking about 70 000 Jews from Isfahan
[01:20:58] talking about 70 000 Jews from Isfahan who follow at the jail and so on this is
[01:21:01] who follow at the jail and so on this is clearly a reference to their isawia
[01:21:03] clearly a reference to their isawia right this Messianic Jewish movement
[01:21:06] right this Messianic Jewish movement that rebelled from Isfahan following a
[01:21:10] that rebelled from Isfahan following a you know from the outside of perspective
[01:21:12] you know from the outside of perspective a false Messiah right this is that's
[01:21:14] a false Messiah right this is that's like a really specific match so the
[01:21:16] like a really specific match so the Hadith that's talking about it is
[01:21:17] Hadith that's talking about it is clearly addressing that event and there
[01:21:21] clearly addressing that event and there are others like this whether it's using
[01:21:22] are others like this whether it's using the specific terminology for example or
[01:21:24] the specific terminology for example or whether there's just like a clear set of
[01:21:26] whether there's just like a clear set of matches between the prophecy on the one
[01:21:29] matches between the prophecy on the one hand and the event on the other right so
[01:21:33] hand and the event on the other right so that's one kind of Prophecy so let's
[01:21:35] that's one kind of Prophecy so let's call that the
[01:21:38] call that the unambiguous prophecies okay I'm just
[01:21:40] unambiguous prophecies okay I'm just gonna that's what I mean when I say I'm
[01:21:41] gonna that's what I mean when I say I'm ambiguous I'm referring to that set of
[01:21:43] ambiguous I'm referring to that set of prophecies there are other prophecies
[01:21:45] prophecies there are other prophecies there that are really vague and we don't
[01:21:47] there that are really vague and we don't know what they're referring to
[01:21:50] know what they're referring to um so and ambiguous prophecies
[01:21:53] um so and ambiguous prophecies here's the Striking thing
[01:21:55] here's the Striking thing when you look at the
[01:21:57] when you look at the unambiguous prophecies ones that most
[01:22:01] unambiguous prophecies ones that most people would agree on not just
[01:22:03] people would agree on not just traditionalists but pretty much everyone
[01:22:04] traditionalists but pretty much everyone else would agree on right that this is
[01:22:06] else would agree on right that this is clearly you know very specifically
[01:22:10] all of those
[01:22:13] all of those are things that occurred or arose or
[01:22:16] are things that occurred or arose or it's a reference to something that
[01:22:17] it's a reference to something that happened basically before the year 800
[01:22:20] happened basically before the year 800 approximately
[01:22:21] approximately which is exactly around the time when
[01:22:25] which is exactly around the time when Hadith criticism arose
[01:22:27] Hadith criticism arose and around the time when systematic
[01:22:30] and around the time when systematic written transmission and around the time
[01:22:33] written transmission and around the time when at that announcement haditha put
[01:22:35] when at that announcement haditha put into text that we then that are then
[01:22:38] into text that we then that are then transmitted
[01:22:39] transmitted as collection of copies of
[01:22:41] as collection of copies of so in other words essentially to put it
[01:22:44] so in other words essentially to put it simply Hadith basically get codified
[01:22:46] simply Hadith basically get codified around the year 800 and it would be much
[01:22:49] around the year 800 and it would be much more difficult be quite
[01:22:51] more difficult be quite difficult from that point onwards to
[01:22:54] difficult from that point onwards to successfully Fab a deep and add it to
[01:22:56] successfully Fab a deep and add it to that material right because now it's
[01:22:59] that material right because now it's like much more rigorous transmission and
[01:23:00] like much more rigorous transmission and so on and so forth
[01:23:02] so on and so forth and so if that was the case
[01:23:05] and so if that was the case this is exactly what we would expect to
[01:23:08] this is exactly what we would expect to see on a post-facto hypothesis
[01:23:11] see on a post-facto hypothesis explaining these kinds of prophecies the
[01:23:13] explaining these kinds of prophecies the prophecies are only able to the Hadith
[01:23:16] prophecies are only able to the Hadith are only able to accurately predict
[01:23:18] are only able to accurately predict things for the time period in which
[01:23:19] things for the time period in which Hadith
[01:23:20] Hadith we're much more able to be fabricated
[01:23:23] we're much more able to be fabricated and then from the time when it's now
[01:23:25] and then from the time when it's now really difficult to fabricate Hadith
[01:23:26] really difficult to fabricate Hadith that's when Hadith no longer accurately
[01:23:28] that's when Hadith no longer accurately closely predicting in anything like a
[01:23:32] closely predicting in anything like a staunch traditionalist is going to agree
[01:23:33] staunch traditionalist is going to agree with right obviously there are people
[01:23:35] with right obviously there are people who are going to insist what about the
[01:23:36] who are going to insist what about the towers the better ones and so on and so
[01:23:38] towers the better ones and so on and so forth these are things every all these
[01:23:40] forth these are things every all these things are really really vague this is
[01:23:42] things are really really vague this is these are all these later alleged later
[01:23:44] these are all these later alleged later prophecies are totally unlike what I'm
[01:23:47] prophecies are totally unlike what I'm calling the unambiguous ones which
[01:23:49] calling the unambiguous ones which everyone will agree on and so there's no
[01:23:52] everyone will agree on and so there's no reason if genuine prophecy explains
[01:23:55] reason if genuine prophecy explains these Hadith the unambiguous cities
[01:23:57] these Hadith the unambiguous cities there's absolutely no reason why the
[01:24:00] there's absolutely no reason why the prophecy should suddenly because
[01:24:02] prophecy should suddenly because suddenly stop around the 800. there's no
[01:24:04] suddenly stop around the 800. there's no reason for that that the prophecy is the
[01:24:07] reason for that that the prophecy is the explanation hypothesis does not make
[01:24:09] explanation hypothesis does not make that prediction but what does make that
[01:24:11] that prediction but what does make that prediction is the ex post you know the
[01:24:13] prediction is the ex post you know the ex post facto hypothesis in conjunction
[01:24:16] ex post facto hypothesis in conjunction with this established background
[01:24:17] with this established background knowledge on when Hadith were codified
[01:24:19] knowledge on when Hadith were codified this is exactly what we would expect to
[01:24:21] this is exactly what we would expect to see so that is clearly the superior
[01:24:23] see so that is clearly the superior explanation for all of these
[01:24:25] explanation for all of these anachronisms and someone in Hadith and
[01:24:28] anachronisms and someone in Hadith and this is behnam his argument or credit
[01:24:30] this is behnam his argument or credit goes to him for this I think it's a very
[01:24:31] goes to him for this I think it's a very clever argument
[01:24:33] clever argument um
[01:24:35] um sort of
[01:24:37] sort of uh there's a really nice he says
[01:24:41] uh there's a really nice he says because he talks about how occasionally
[01:24:45] Hadith critics did
[01:24:48] Hadith critics did anachronisms in Hadith and they would
[01:24:50] anachronisms in Hadith and they would reject the Hadith accordingly it did
[01:24:51] reject the Hadith accordingly it did happen occasionally but then Brown says
[01:24:54] happen occasionally but then Brown says I am not suggesting that Hadith critics
[01:24:57] I am not suggesting that Hadith critics were forerunners of the historical
[01:24:59] were forerunners of the historical critical method as generations of
[01:25:02] critical method as generations of Western Scholars have demonstrated even
[01:25:04] Western Scholars have demonstrated even the revered sahihane a replete with
[01:25:07] the revered sahihane a replete with anachronistic reports that grew out of
[01:25:08] anachronistic reports that grew out of the political legal and sectarian feuds
[01:25:11] the political legal and sectarian feuds of the first two centuries of Islam so I
[01:25:13] of the first two centuries of Islam so I think I I completely agree
[01:25:16] think I I completely agree with that and I think that's you know
[01:25:19] with that and I think that's you know pretty unambiguous so yeah and that
[01:25:21] pretty unambiguous so yeah and that quote that's from Professor Brown
[01:25:22] quote that's from Professor Brown correct
[01:25:24] correct this is in that's from Jonathan Brown's
[01:25:27] this is in that's from Jonathan Brown's article how we know early did matter and
[01:25:30] article how we know early did matter and criticism and why it's so hard to find
[01:25:33] criticism and why it's so hard to find okay great
[01:25:35] okay great um let's move on although I would say
[01:25:38] um let's move on although I would say that I keep getting like people keep
[01:25:42] that I keep getting like people keep sending me the same Hadith about the the
[01:25:44] sending me the same Hadith about the the tall trees and that one seems to impress
[01:25:46] tall trees and that one seems to impress a lot of people about these barefooted
[01:25:48] a lot of people about these barefooted people in Arabia will Iraq to large
[01:25:52] people in Arabia will Iraq to large buildings
[01:25:53] buildings um and then they will have Graphics
[01:25:56] um and then they will have Graphics showing the large uh skyscrapers but I
[01:25:59] showing the large uh skyscrapers but I guess even now you consider that to be
[01:26:01] guess even now you consider that to be very vague and not it doesn't fit in the
[01:26:04] very vague and not it doesn't fit in the same camp I I suspect that if you have
[01:26:07] same camp I I suspect that if you have enough prophecies some of them are going
[01:26:10] enough prophecies some of them are going to come somewhat closer especially if
[01:26:12] to come somewhat closer especially if they're a little bit vague
[01:26:13] they're a little bit vague um and that's what you see with like
[01:26:14] um and that's what you see with like Nostradamus right some of the some of
[01:26:17] Nostradamus right some of the some of the prophecies are oh yeah this this is
[01:26:19] the prophecies are oh yeah this this is actually real
[01:26:20] actually real um or at least people will think it's
[01:26:22] um or at least people will think it's real okay uh let's move on to are we at
[01:26:25] real okay uh let's move on to are we at number six now we've actually pretty
[01:26:26] number six now we've actually pretty much done number six we started into it
[01:26:28] much done number six we started into it because number six is just general
[01:26:31] because number six is just general sort of depictions natural Miracles
[01:26:33] sort of depictions natural Miracles miraculous elements and so on
[01:26:35] miraculous elements and so on um magic and all these other things gin
[01:26:38] um magic and all these other things gin and so on so we've actually that's what
[01:26:40] and so on so we've actually that's what about just in the gym we'll just
[01:26:42] about just in the gym we'll just summarize that so you're saying that
[01:26:43] summarize that so you're saying that that's your a priori probability is low
[01:26:47] that's your a priori probability is low on those things is that what you're
[01:26:48] on those things is that what you're saying yeah yeah prior probability prior
[01:26:51] saying yeah yeah prior probability prior probability oh sorry okay uh yeah so the
[01:26:55] probability oh sorry okay uh yeah so the prior probability of
[01:26:57] prior probability of they're being genuine sort of miraculous
[01:26:59] they're being genuine sort of miraculous Supernatural and magical events
[01:27:02] Supernatural and magical events the probability of those explaining the
[01:27:05] the probability of those explaining the existence of these reports is extremely
[01:27:09] existence of these reports is extremely vanishingly low and what is what is
[01:27:12] vanishingly low and what is what is going to be far far more likely is any
[01:27:15] going to be far far more likely is any other scenario that doesn't involve
[01:27:17] other scenario that doesn't involve those any other scenario is going to be
[01:27:19] those any other scenario is going to be more likely lying delusion uh um error
[01:27:24] more likely lying delusion uh um error irony you know joking any of those any
[01:27:27] irony you know joking any of those any of those is going to be far far more
[01:27:29] of those is going to be far far more likely than that there actually was you
[01:27:31] likely than that there actually was you know a a you know kahin who was
[01:27:34] know a a you know kahin who was successfully wielding the powers of the
[01:27:36] successfully wielding the powers of the Gin to do X Y and Z so yeah this is um
[01:27:40] Gin to do X Y and Z so yeah this is um this is just the same point we're making
[01:27:42] this is just the same point we're making before all right uh can we go on to the
[01:27:44] before all right uh can we go on to the next uh reason go through the Sunni
[01:27:47] next uh reason go through the Sunni Hadith critical literature for example
[01:27:49] Hadith critical literature for example you'll often find you know for example
[01:27:52] you'll often find you know for example at the beginning of the
[01:27:55] at the beginning of the ayat of ibno jealousy uh he discusses
[01:27:59] ayat of ibno jealousy uh he discusses you know all the different kinds of
[01:28:00] you know all the different kinds of people who would fabricate Hadith and
[01:28:02] people who would fabricate Hadith and and in those kinds of works you'll often
[01:28:04] and in those kinds of works you'll often find these reports or anecdotes or
[01:28:05] find these reports or anecdotes or statements from people about the
[01:28:08] statements from people about the fabrication and interpolation and
[01:28:10] fabrication and interpolation and Distortion of Hadith and if you put all
[01:28:12] Distortion of Hadith and if you put all those together this picture emerges that
[01:28:15] those together this picture emerges that Hadith will being Mass fabricated
[01:28:19] Hadith will being Mass fabricated and this is the traditionalist view the
[01:28:21] and this is the traditionalist view the Hadith for being Mass fabricated so
[01:28:24] Hadith for being Mass fabricated so oh for example there's a famous report
[01:28:27] oh for example there's a famous report from
[01:28:29] from who's a arguably the founder of Proto
[01:28:34] who's a arguably the founder of Proto Sunni Hadith criticism this is something
[01:28:35] Sunni Hadith criticism this is something I'm sort of exploring at the moment in a
[01:28:37] I'm sort of exploring at the moment in a series of articles on my blog and so
[01:28:39] series of articles on my blog and so sharabah said and I'm I'm this is my
[01:28:42] sharabah said and I'm I'm this is my translation uh
[01:28:44] translation uh verily you can barely find anyone before
[01:28:46] verily you can barely find anyone before me scrutinizing these Hadith whose
[01:28:49] me scrutinizing these Hadith whose investigation was comparable to my
[01:28:52] investigation was comparable to my investigation nor anyone whose search
[01:28:54] investigation nor anyone whose search for Hadith was comparable to my search I
[01:28:58] for Hadith was comparable to my search I have examined it I.E Hadith in general
[01:29:00] have examined it I.E Hadith in general and discovered that not even a third
[01:29:03] and discovered that not even a third thereof is sound now there's a little
[01:29:06] thereof is sound now there's a little bit of ambiguity in the wording but
[01:29:09] bit of ambiguity in the wording but another version from Shabba and this one
[01:29:12] another version from Shabba and this one is cited by
[01:29:14] is cited by this version is way less ambiguous in
[01:29:18] this version is way less ambiguous in this version Sharma says I do not know
[01:29:20] this version Sharma says I do not know of anyone who scrutinized Hadith whose
[01:29:23] of anyone who scrutinized Hadith whose investigation was comparable to my
[01:29:26] investigation was comparable to my investigation I discovered that three
[01:29:28] investigation I discovered that three quarters thereof are false
[01:29:31] quarters thereof are false three quarters of Hadith are they saying
[01:29:34] three quarters of Hadith are they saying are kevib or false which is a huge
[01:29:37] are kevib or false which is a huge proportion of Hadith we also have for
[01:29:40] proportion of Hadith we also have for example there's a series of reports
[01:29:42] example there's a series of reports about a heretic and there are variations
[01:29:44] about a heretic and there are variations in the report
[01:29:45] in the report uh but one of them is from or attributed
[01:29:49] uh but one of them is from or attributed to Abdullah who is a uh uh Egyptian uh
[01:29:55] to Abdullah who is a uh uh Egyptian uh Hadith scholar and he said that a
[01:29:57] Hadith scholar and he said that a heretic who had repented of his false
[01:29:59] heretic who had repented of his false doctrines spoke to me and he said
[01:30:02] doctrines spoke to me and he said examine carefully from whom you have
[01:30:04] examine carefully from whom you have taken in these Hadith proverably
[01:30:06] taken in these Hadith proverably whenever we reasoned our way to a
[01:30:08] whenever we reasoned our way to a Doctrine we would turn it into a Hadith
[01:30:10] Doctrine we would turn it into a Hadith so what's being depicted here is these
[01:30:13] so what's being depicted here is these Heretics whenever they sort of came to a
[01:30:16] Heretics whenever they sort of came to a conclusion they would just turn that
[01:30:17] conclusion they would just turn that into a Hadith right it's just customary
[01:30:20] into a Hadith right it's just customary for that
[01:30:22] for that we also have
[01:30:25] we also have I mean there are many many others I'll
[01:30:26] I mean there are many many others I'll just give one one more actually because
[01:30:28] just give one one more actually because I don't want to spend too much time on
[01:30:29] I don't want to spend too much time on this but uh yeah yeah
[01:30:31] this but uh yeah yeah who is a student of Shabba famous early
[01:30:34] who is a student of Shabba famous early uh bastron Hadith critic he said I have
[01:30:38] uh bastron Hadith critic he said I have not seen the pious or Sally Hain I've
[01:30:41] not seen the pious or Sally Hain I've not seen the pious in any regard being
[01:30:43] not seen the pious in any regard being more dishonest than they are in regards
[01:30:46] more dishonest than they are in regards to Hadith and I have an article on my
[01:30:48] to Hadith and I have an article on my blog sort of reconstructing this
[01:30:50] blog sort of reconstructing this statement back to him for those who are
[01:30:51] statement back to him for those who are interested so and this is just a
[01:30:54] interested so and this is just a fraction by the way there are many many
[01:30:56] fraction by the way there are many many reports like this that depict
[01:30:58] reports like this that depict fabrication interpolation Distortion
[01:31:00] fabrication interpolation Distortion occurring all over the place in pretty
[01:31:02] occurring all over the place in pretty much all groups and so the picture you
[01:31:05] much all groups and so the picture you get even from the traditional sources is
[01:31:07] get even from the traditional sources is that the fabrication and interpolation
[01:31:09] that the fabrication and interpolation and Distortion of Hadith was totally
[01:31:11] and Distortion of Hadith was totally ubiquitous now of course the
[01:31:13] ubiquitous now of course the traditionalists will say in this case
[01:31:15] traditionalists will say in this case we're looking at some Sunni sources so
[01:31:16] we're looking at some Sunni sources so Sunni traditionalists will say you know
[01:31:19] Sunni traditionalists will say you know there was this methodology this Hadith
[01:31:21] there was this methodology this Hadith this Hadith criticism which they were
[01:31:24] this Hadith criticism which they were you know the Hadith critics were able to
[01:31:26] you know the Hadith critics were able to use you know
[01:31:28] use you know they were able to
[01:31:31] they were able to you know detect which ones were actually
[01:31:33] you know detect which ones were actually true which ones were false but if there
[01:31:36] true which ones were false but if there were problems that we can show with the
[01:31:37] were problems that we can show with the methodology that it wasn't effective
[01:31:39] methodology that it wasn't effective then all of these problems suddenly
[01:31:41] then all of these problems suddenly gained full force do you see what I'm
[01:31:43] gained full force do you see what I'm saying like if it's the case that Hadith
[01:31:45] saying like if it's the case that Hadith were being ubiquitously fabricated and
[01:31:47] were being ubiquitously fabricated and if they also didn't have a a an
[01:31:49] if they also didn't have a a an effective method then we're actually in
[01:31:51] effective method then we're actually in serious trouble does that make sense
[01:31:55] yes I think that makes sense so what
[01:31:58] yes I think that makes sense so what number are we at now
[01:32:00] number are we at now seven
[01:32:02] seven nine number seven
[01:32:05] nine number seven all right let's have it
[01:32:07] all right let's have it yeah
[01:32:11] the problems that we just covered
[01:32:13] the problems that we just covered are the most trivial of the problems
[01:32:16] are the most trivial of the problems these are the least substantive
[01:32:20] these are the least substantive if these were the only problems we would
[01:32:22] if these were the only problems we would be in a really strong position
[01:32:25] be in a really strong position these are the proper perspective to put
[01:32:27] these are the proper perspective to put this into into perspective these are the
[01:32:30] this into into perspective these are the problems that people like William
[01:32:31] problems that people like William Montgomery what
[01:32:33] Montgomery what would acknowledge and was freely aware
[01:32:35] would acknowledge and was freely aware of right this is that level of problems
[01:32:39] of right this is that level of problems this is nothing these are the the the
[01:32:41] this is nothing these are the the the the the preliminary problems and I think
[01:32:45] the the preliminary problems and I think it's a problem it's another problem it's
[01:32:47] it's a problem it's another problem it's a matter problem that when people talk
[01:32:49] a matter problem that when people talk about the unreliability of Hadith they
[01:32:51] about the unreliability of Hadith they normally only talk about these sorts of
[01:32:53] normally only talk about these sorts of problems and this is nothing this this
[01:32:56] problems and this is nothing this this is just the starting problems this is
[01:32:57] is just the starting problems this is they're they're far more devastating or
[01:33:00] they're they're far more devastating or impactful problems than these and and
[01:33:02] impactful problems than these and and you can actually I mean people can
[01:33:04] you can actually I mean people can actually go through grad school and
[01:33:06] actually go through grad school and never come across the more substantial
[01:33:09] never come across the more substantial problems or only come across one or two
[01:33:11] problems or only come across one or two of them so hopefully you know my aim
[01:33:13] of them so hopefully you know my aim here is to to make this material more
[01:33:15] here is to to make this material more accessible again so that people can
[01:33:16] accessible again so that people can actually understand what are the
[01:33:18] actually understand what are the arguments and also what are the stronger
[01:33:19] arguments and also what are the stronger arguments so even if you disagree you
[01:33:22] arguments so even if you disagree you actually know what it is that you have
[01:33:23] actually know what it is that you have to refute or respond to or and so on and
[01:33:25] to refute or respond to or and so on and so forth okay so these
[01:33:27] so forth okay so these are the the most trivial problems out of
[01:33:30] are the the most trivial problems out of the way now we move to a second wave of
[01:33:33] the way now we move to a second wave of problems which I think are a bit more
[01:33:34] problems which I think are a bit more sub
[01:33:38] and these that were articulated Above
[01:33:41] and these that were articulated Above All by beginning with Joseph in the
[01:33:44] All by beginning with Joseph in the 1950s right so this is approximately the
[01:33:46] 1950s right so this is approximately the the second wave of problems
[01:33:49] the second wave of problems so the first problem is that is a rose
[01:33:54] so the first problem is that is a rose quite relatively late so it's basically
[01:33:57] quite relatively late so it's basically now a consensus as far as I can tell
[01:33:59] now a consensus as far as I can tell within the secular critical scholarship
[01:34:02] within the secular critical scholarship that is first arose during the second
[01:34:05] that is first arose during the second fitna especially during or in reaction
[01:34:09] fitna especially during or in reaction to the rebellion
[01:34:11] to the rebellion in kufa and
[01:34:14] in kufa and then subsequent to that decades after
[01:34:17] then subsequent to that decades after that
[01:34:18] that they spread and became widespread and
[01:34:21] they spread and became widespread and systematic so we have to distinguish
[01:34:23] systematic so we have to distinguish between the origin of the Assad and the
[01:34:25] between the origin of the Assad and the generalization of the isnad the origin
[01:34:28] generalization of the isnad the origin lies in the second fitna but the
[01:34:30] lies in the second fitna but the generalization actually lies
[01:34:32] generalization actually lies sort of around or soon after the the
[01:34:34] sort of around or soon after the the year 100 of the hitra or in other words
[01:34:37] year 100 of the hitra or in other words in the early to mid 8th Century CE
[01:34:41] in the early to mid 8th Century CE and I again I want to emphasize this is
[01:34:44] and I again I want to emphasize this is basically as far as I can tell like
[01:34:45] basically as far as I can tell like consensus
[01:34:46] consensus so this is a view that you variously
[01:34:48] so this is a view that you variously find articulated by
[01:34:51] find articulated by um for the first one about
[01:34:52] um for the first one about um the origins of this nerd Joseph
[01:34:55] um the origins of this nerd Joseph Horowitz
[01:34:58] Horowitz um James Robson
[01:35:00] um James Robson uh even uh nabia Abbott agreed to this
[01:35:04] uh even uh nabia Abbott agreed to this uh Gautier yonball agreed to this
[01:35:07] uh Gautier yonball agreed to this uh Harold motsky agreed to this uh
[01:35:11] uh Harold motsky agreed to this uh pavlovich Pavel pavlovich agrees with
[01:35:13] pavlovich Pavel pavlovich agrees with this
[01:35:14] this uh this is like
[01:35:16] uh this is like you know and you can already see if
[01:35:18] you know and you can already see if you're familiar with the field that this
[01:35:20] you're familiar with the field that this is a spectrum this is the set of
[01:35:21] is a spectrum this is the set of Scholars from across the Spectrum and
[01:35:23] Scholars from across the Spectrum and there's widespread agreement here and
[01:35:25] there's widespread agreement here and then on the issue of when did isnads
[01:35:28] then on the issue of when did isnads become systematic widespread
[01:35:32] become systematic widespread uh you know and that having been the
[01:35:34] uh you know and that having been the case that occurring in the um
[01:35:37] case that occurring in the um uh around you know the the early to mid
[01:35:40] uh around you know the the early to mid 8th century
[01:35:42] 8th century uh this view is expressed by Joseph
[01:35:44] uh this view is expressed by Joseph Gautier yomball Harold motsky Scott
[01:35:47] Gautier yomball Harold motsky Scott Lucas uh Pavel pavlovich
[01:35:51] Lucas uh Pavel pavlovich and maybe it's also implied by
[01:35:55] and maybe it's also implied by um
[01:35:56] um um Stein ayats
[01:35:58] um Stein ayats so
[01:35:59] so again
[01:36:01] again Scholars from across the Spectrum all
[01:36:03] Scholars from across the Spectrum all converging on the same basic chronology
[01:36:06] converging on the same basic chronology here so what's the actual evidence that
[01:36:08] here so what's the actual evidence that people are going off here why are people
[01:36:09] people are going off here why are people why are Scholars saying this why is
[01:36:11] why are Scholars saying this why is shock saying this why is Your Own Boss
[01:36:12] shock saying this why is Your Own Boss saying this
[01:36:14] saying this so forth so when it comes to the origins
[01:36:17] so forth so when it comes to the origins of this now there's several points of
[01:36:18] of this now there's several points of evidence so one is the famous report of
[01:36:21] evidence so one is the famous report of IBN Syrian right IBN Cyrene said uh they
[01:36:25] IBN Syrian right IBN Cyrene said uh they did not used to ask for the Assad but
[01:36:27] did not used to ask for the Assad but when the fitna occurred they said name
[01:36:31] when the fitna occurred they said name for us your tridents your fridge
[01:36:36] there are Hadith would be taken and
[01:36:39] there are Hadith would be taken and whoever did that their Hadith would not
[01:36:42] whoever did that their Hadith would not be taken so this is a very famous report
[01:36:44] be taken so this is a very famous report about the origins of the esnad
[01:36:46] about the origins of the esnad attributed to IBN Serene and so
[01:36:48] attributed to IBN Serene and so basically secular Scholars will argue
[01:36:51] basically secular Scholars will argue because traditionalists will argue this
[01:36:52] because traditionalists will argue this refers to the first Fitness but what
[01:36:55] refers to the first Fitness but what secular Scholars usually argue is that
[01:36:57] secular Scholars usually argue is that this refers to the second fitna and
[01:37:00] this refers to the second fitna and basically the second fitna is referred
[01:37:02] basically the second fitna is referred to as simply the fitna that's the first
[01:37:04] to as simply the fitna that's the first point the second point is that this
[01:37:07] point the second point is that this report is mentioned for example by
[01:37:09] report is mentioned for example by al-juza Journey in the same contextar
[01:37:13] al-juza Journey in the same contextar which is the second Fitness right so it
[01:37:16] which is the second Fitness right so it looks like he even he and some of these
[01:37:17] looks like he even he and some of these Scholars are interpreting it even later
[01:37:19] Scholars are interpreting it even later on as a reference to the second fitna
[01:37:21] on as a reference to the second fitna and the third and the most obvious point
[01:37:23] and the third and the most obvious point is
[01:37:24] is which event would IBN Cyrene without
[01:37:27] which event would IBN Cyrene without qualification naturally be referring to
[01:37:30] qualification naturally be referring to right I'm not saying this Hadith is
[01:37:31] right I'm not saying this Hadith is actually authentic I'm not I'm not
[01:37:33] actually authentic I'm not I'm not committed here to it actually going back
[01:37:35] committed here to it actually going back to him right it doesn't matter if he's
[01:37:36] to him right it doesn't matter if he's the one saying this or if it's someone
[01:37:38] the one saying this or if it's someone putting this in his mouth right but
[01:37:39] putting this in his mouth right but whatever it's meant to be which would be
[01:37:41] whatever it's meant to be which would be the most intelligible and obvious
[01:37:44] the most intelligible and obvious referent for IBN cedrin when he says the
[01:37:48] referent for IBN cedrin when he says the it's obviously going to be the fit now
[01:37:50] it's obviously going to be the fit now that occurred during his adult life and
[01:37:52] that occurred during his adult life and not the one that occurred when he was a
[01:37:54] not the one that occurred when he was a like an infant it's sort of the same as
[01:37:57] like an infant it's sort of the same as if I was born or you know if I was an
[01:38:00] if I was born or you know if I was an infant during the first world war but
[01:38:02] infant during the first world war but then I lived through the second world
[01:38:04] then I lived through the second world war as an adult and then after that I
[01:38:06] war as an adult and then after that I refer to the war which war do I mean and
[01:38:08] refer to the war which war do I mean and we all know immediately the second right
[01:38:11] we all know immediately the second right it's the more immediate one it's that's
[01:38:12] it's the more immediate one it's that's the default referent is going to be the
[01:38:15] the default referent is going to be the more immediate recent one that I was
[01:38:17] more immediate recent one that I was involved in or lived through as an adult
[01:38:20] involved in or lived through as an adult relatively recently so this is just
[01:38:23] relatively recently so this is just clearly the much stronger interpretation
[01:38:25] clearly the much stronger interpretation and there's a bunch of work on this
[01:38:27] and there's a bunch of work on this especially join ball has several works
[01:38:29] especially join ball has several works on this they're dealing with this go
[01:38:30] on this they're dealing with this go ahead
[01:38:31] ahead so you you pretty much answered the
[01:38:34] so you you pretty much answered the question that I was going to have which
[01:38:35] question that I was going to have which is how does this differ from what the
[01:38:38] is how does this differ from what the traditionalist narrative is so it's
[01:38:40] traditionalist narrative is so it's between the first fitna and the second
[01:38:42] between the first fitna and the second fitna can you tell us what is the time
[01:38:45] fitna can you tell us what is the time difference and what is the implication
[01:38:48] difference and what is the implication of that conclusion
[01:38:50] of that conclusion sure so the the first fitna is
[01:38:55] sure so the the first fitna is uh from the murder of man
[01:38:59] uh from the murder of man which is 656 to the uh murder of Ali and
[01:39:05] which is 656 to the uh murder of Ali and the Ascension of Maria which is uh 661.
[01:39:09] the Ascension of Maria which is uh 661. and so uh you know that's quite early so
[01:39:13] and so uh you know that's quite early so this senior most of the senior
[01:39:16] this senior most of the senior companions would still be alive at that
[01:39:18] companions would still be alive at that point for example whereas the second
[01:39:20] point for example whereas the second Fitness breaks out following the death
[01:39:23] Fitness breaks out following the death of morawia in 680 and basically rages on
[01:39:27] of morawia in 680 and basically rages on for a decade or two
[01:39:30] for a decade or two I mean sort of the fighting doesn't
[01:39:32] I mean sort of the fighting doesn't actually end when it when Abdullah IBN
[01:39:34] actually end when it when Abdullah IBN as a bear is killed so it seems to be a
[01:39:36] as a bear is killed so it seems to be a bit odd that that's usually given us the
[01:39:38] bit odd that that's usually given us the end of the second fitna when the haraju
[01:39:41] end of the second fitna when the haraju fights sort of continue to to flare on
[01:39:43] fights sort of continue to to flare on but whatever it's normally then put the
[01:39:45] but whatever it's normally then put the end of the second figure is normally
[01:39:46] end of the second figure is normally given
[01:39:47] given uh I think it's 692.
[01:39:51] uh I think it's 692. so
[01:39:52] so uh
[01:39:54] uh yeah so and
[01:39:56] yeah so and if indeed it's linked with specifically
[01:39:58] if indeed it's linked with specifically with El mukhtar
[01:40:00] with El mukhtar uh
[01:40:02] his rebellion occurred between 685 and
[01:40:06] his rebellion occurred between 685 and 687. so in other words the 20 decades
[01:40:10] 687. so in other words the 20 decades did the isnada
[01:40:12] did the isnada rise when the senior companions were
[01:40:15] rise when the senior companions were still alive like almost you know very
[01:40:17] still alive like almost you know very very soon after the death of the Prophet
[01:40:18] very soon after the death of the Prophet uh or was it you know
[01:40:21] uh or was it you know uh half a century later
[01:40:24] uh half a century later um when most of the senior companions
[01:40:26] um when most of the senior companions were dead and even many of the older
[01:40:29] were dead and even many of the older companions were dying out uh you know so
[01:40:33] companions were dying out uh you know so that you're far more removed and there's
[01:40:35] that you're far more removed and there's far more you know for example sectarian
[01:40:38] far more you know for example sectarian development that that has occurred and
[01:40:40] development that that has occurred and there are far more sort of entrenched
[01:40:41] there are far more sort of entrenched Computing interests and so on and so
[01:40:43] Computing interests and so on and so forth so it's clearly a worse situation
[01:40:45] forth so it's clearly a worse situation and then and remember this is the very
[01:40:48] and then and remember this is the very beginnings of this node
[01:40:50] beginnings of this node and just is relevant to this there's a
[01:40:54] and just is relevant to this there's a report attributed who says the issnard
[01:40:57] report attributed who says the issnard was only asked for beginning in the days
[01:41:00] was only asked for beginning in the days of el mukhtar
[01:41:02] of el mukhtar so this is another report that is is
[01:41:05] so this is another report that is is directly relevant and there are others
[01:41:07] directly relevant and there are others as well so this is the origins of this
[01:41:10] as well so this is the origins of this nerd but it becoming widespread and
[01:41:13] nerd but it becoming widespread and systematic there are several points of
[01:41:15] systematic there are several points of evidence for this so there are reports
[01:41:18] evidence for this so there are reports so for example there's a report of said
[01:41:20] so for example there's a report of said getting angry when someone asked him for
[01:41:23] getting angry when someone asked him for a snout which
[01:41:26] a snout which is consistent with isnad's not yet being
[01:41:30] is consistent with isnad's not yet being customary at that time right it doesn't
[01:41:32] customary at that time right it doesn't entail it but it's consistent with right
[01:41:34] entail it but it's consistent with right so I just want to get around so no
[01:41:36] so I just want to get around so no matsuki criticized shaft reciting this
[01:41:38] matsuki criticized shaft reciting this you know but I think that the point is
[01:41:39] you know but I think that the point is that the evidence is consistent with the
[01:41:40] that the evidence is consistent with the hypothesis when you add it with the
[01:41:41] hypothesis when you add it with the other evidence it all adds up so that's
[01:41:44] other evidence it all adds up so that's one piece of evidence there's also for
[01:41:46] one piece of evidence there's also for example this report from Hamad bin
[01:41:48] example this report from Hamad bin Salama who's talking about his teacher
[01:41:50] Salama who's talking about his teacher khatada who died
[01:41:52] khatada who died 735 736 CE and Qatar is one of the major
[01:41:57] 735 736 CE and Qatar is one of the major sources of Hadith six figures around
[01:42:00] sources of Hadith six figures around whom the isnab revolves there's a famous
[01:42:02] whom the isnab revolves there's a famous you know he's sort of like a a um a
[01:42:04] you know he's sort of like a a um a super common link maybe is a way of
[01:42:06] super common link maybe is a way of thinking about it like a really common
[01:42:07] thinking about it like a really common someone who recurs very frequently as a
[01:42:09] someone who recurs very frequently as a comment link
[01:42:10] comment link um and in this report it basically says
[01:42:15] um and in this report it basically says almost never cited his snout he was
[01:42:17] almost never cited his snout he was almost never citing his Nads until Hamad
[01:42:21] almost never citing his Nads until Hamad IBN ABI Suleiman came and visited Basra
[01:42:24] IBN ABI Suleiman came and visited Basra which is where Qatar was located and
[01:42:26] which is where Qatar was located and then you know Hamad started using uh uh
[01:42:30] then you know Hamad started using uh uh you know citing is and so then Qatar
[01:42:32] you know citing is and so then Qatar started
[01:42:33] started makes it seem like uh it was late in
[01:42:37] makes it seem like uh it was late in qatar's career when he finally starts
[01:42:39] qatar's career when he finally starts systematically citing sources
[01:42:43] and again particularly in the city of
[01:42:45] and again particularly in the city of Boston
[01:42:46] Boston and another point of evidence oh sorry
[01:42:48] and another point of evidence oh sorry go ahead
[01:42:50] go ahead well I think that's getting pretty deep
[01:42:52] well I think that's getting pretty deep in the woods I think you've made your
[01:42:53] in the woods I think you've made your point let's move on to the next uh the
[01:42:56] point let's move on to the next uh the next point the idealist what number are
[01:42:57] next point the idealist what number are we at now
[01:42:59] we at now wait is there's one thing I want to
[01:43:00] wait is there's one thing I want to quickly add to that one final sure uh
[01:43:03] quickly add to that one final sure uh that another point of evidence that
[01:43:04] that another point of evidence that Scholars site is uh for example
[01:43:09] Scholars site is uh for example um
[01:43:10] um most common fees operating across the
[01:43:12] most common fees operating across the 8th century and this for example most of
[01:43:15] 8th century and this for example most of the common links we find and had
[01:43:17] the common links we find and had literature belonged to the first three
[01:43:19] literature belonged to the first three generations active during the second
[01:43:21] generations active during the second century I.E the time between roughly 100
[01:43:23] century I.E the time between roughly 100 and 175 ah and the point is the
[01:43:26] and 175 ah and the point is the precondition for us to even be able to
[01:43:28] precondition for us to even be able to see a common link in retrospect is that
[01:43:30] see a common link in retrospect is that there is dense transmission thus we have
[01:43:32] there is dense transmission thus we have many strands thus they converge and we
[01:43:34] many strands thus they converge and we have this sort of densely corroborated
[01:43:35] have this sort of densely corroborated figure and so it's telling that the
[01:43:38] figure and so it's telling that the common links are largely from the 8th
[01:43:40] common links are largely from the 8th Century across the 8th Century that's
[01:43:41] Century across the 8th Century that's consistent with the onset of systematic
[01:43:44] consistent with the onset of systematic uh estimate usage in the 8th century and
[01:43:48] uh estimate usage in the 8th century and and then uh so then and there's another
[01:43:51] and then uh so then and there's another method actually that he uses which I
[01:43:52] method actually that he uses which I don't fully agree with but he he comes
[01:43:54] don't fully agree with but he he comes with the same conclusion via another
[01:43:56] with the same conclusion via another means but he Montague summarizes this as
[01:43:58] means but he Montague summarizes this as he says Studies have shown that the
[01:44:00] he says Studies have shown that the customer of asking one's teachers about
[01:44:02] customer of asking one's teachers about their informants arose at the end of the
[01:44:04] their informants arose at the end of the first century history then slowly spread
[01:44:08] first century history then slowly spread in the course of the second century
[01:44:10] in the course of the second century history in Mecca asking about an issnar
[01:44:13] history in Mecca asking about an issnar didn't in
[01:44:14] didn't in didn't begin until the start of the
[01:44:17] didn't begin until the start of the second century in Iraq even later
[01:44:20] second century in Iraq even later so you know this is motsky summarizing
[01:44:23] so you know this is motsky summarizing this situation okay great
[01:44:26] this situation okay great um let's move on to are we at eight or
[01:44:28] um let's move on to are we at eight or nine now
[01:44:30] nine now now we're up to number nine which is
[01:44:33] now we're up to number nine which is that we have all of these dissonant yeah
[01:44:36] that we have all of these dissonant yeah so we have all of these dissonant
[01:44:38] so we have all of these dissonant reports ascriptions and compositions
[01:44:41] reports ascriptions and compositions that a test or imply that Muslims
[01:44:45] that a test or imply that Muslims basically up until the middle of the 8th
[01:44:46] basically up until the middle of the 8th Century CE largely adhered to a vague or
[01:44:51] Century CE largely adhered to a vague or generic notion of Sunnah as
[01:44:54] generic notion of Sunnah as good custom
[01:44:56] good custom which was
[01:44:58] which was specifically and there are also
[01:45:00] specifically and there are also instances when
[01:45:02] instances when they're actually some figures and even
[01:45:06] they're actually some figures and even when there are early instances of the
[01:45:09] when there are early instances of the Prophet son of being cited it's
[01:45:11] Prophet son of being cited it's virtually always notional it's
[01:45:14] virtually always notional it's unconnected to concrete precedence let
[01:45:16] unconnected to concrete precedence let alone in the form of Hadith and so
[01:45:18] alone in the form of Hadith and so obviously this would in turn strongly
[01:45:21] obviously this would in turn strongly implies an early General absence of
[01:45:22] implies an early General absence of Hadith because if you know there were
[01:45:25] Hadith because if you know there were all these you know vast amount of
[01:45:27] all these you know vast amount of concrete prophetical precedence
[01:45:28] concrete prophetical precedence available from the get-go you would
[01:45:30] available from the get-go you would think that people mention it but instead
[01:45:31] think that people mention it but instead early notion of Sunnah seems to be
[01:45:34] early notion of Sunnah seems to be independent of Hadith innocent of Hadith
[01:45:37] independent of Hadith innocent of Hadith you know
[01:45:39] you know any sort of con Crete
[01:45:44] so that's great um this is really
[01:45:46] so that's great um this is really important from the reformist perspective
[01:45:49] important from the reformist perspective or the modernist perspective is to
[01:45:52] or the modernist perspective is to resuscitate the early usage of the word
[01:45:54] resuscitate the early usage of the word Sunnah which seems to be used in a very
[01:45:57] Sunnah which seems to be used in a very different way than it is now now Sunnah
[01:45:59] different way than it is now now Sunnah is almost synonymous with Hadith in the
[01:46:03] is almost synonymous with Hadith in the sense that the only carrier of the
[01:46:05] sense that the only carrier of the Sunnah is the Hadith whereas in the
[01:46:08] Sunnah is the Hadith whereas in the early period as you said Sunnah seems to
[01:46:11] early period as you said Sunnah seems to be used in a more generalized fashion as
[01:46:13] be used in a more generalized fashion as almost like you said good practice in
[01:46:15] almost like you said good practice in the sense of perhaps channeling the
[01:46:17] the sense of perhaps channeling the prophet but it wasn't even real it
[01:46:19] prophet but it wasn't even real it wasn't even restricted to prophetics
[01:46:22] wasn't even restricted to prophetics of the prophet and the caliphs the
[01:46:25] of the prophet and the caliphs the rightly guided caliphs after
[01:46:27] rightly guided caliphs after um so it was more like a lived practice
[01:46:28] um so it was more like a lived practice as opposed to mapping on to Hadith
[01:46:32] as opposed to mapping on to Hadith reports and I think
[01:46:34] reports and I think um this is a promising route for Muslims
[01:46:38] um this is a promising route for Muslims now to kind of resuscitate and
[01:46:39] now to kind of resuscitate and definitely that's what many reformist
[01:46:41] definitely that's what many reformist Muslims are doing so okay great so
[01:46:43] Muslims are doing so okay great so you're saying based on that there
[01:46:45] you're saying based on that there doesn't seem to be the same conception
[01:46:47] doesn't seem to be the same conception of Sunnah or of Hadith in that early
[01:46:50] of Sunnah or of Hadith in that early period now would this be an argument
[01:46:53] period now would this be an argument from Silence that
[01:46:55] from Silence that can you talk about arguments of silence
[01:46:57] can you talk about arguments of silence is this an argument from silence and
[01:46:58] is this an argument from silence and also our arguments from Silence always
[01:47:00] also our arguments from Silence always problematic because that's what many
[01:47:02] problematic because that's what many traditionalists will say is that you
[01:47:04] traditionalists will say is that you can't make arguments from Silence
[01:47:07] can't make arguments from Silence well it's
[01:47:09] well it's it's foremost an appeal to the Criterion
[01:47:11] it's foremost an appeal to the Criterion of dissimilarity so the point is just
[01:47:14] of dissimilarity so the point is just that we have all of these reports so we
[01:47:16] that we have all of these reports so we have some many reports that depict the
[01:47:18] have some many reports that depict the Sunnah as being the classical notion
[01:47:20] Sunnah as being the classical notion those are that's represented in some
[01:47:22] those are that's represented in some reports these are reports that depict
[01:47:25] reports these are reports that depict this let's call it pre-classical or
[01:47:28] this let's call it pre-classical or archaic notion of Sunnah now based on
[01:47:30] archaic notion of Sunnah now based on it's given that the classical notion you
[01:47:33] it's given that the classical notion you know predominates and thus we call it
[01:47:34] know predominates and thus we call it the classical notion in the sources and
[01:47:36] the classical notion in the sources and among sort of the people who preserve
[01:47:38] among sort of the people who preserve transmit and preserve Hadith you know
[01:47:40] transmit and preserve Hadith you know from let's say the end of the uh 8th
[01:47:44] from let's say the end of the uh 8th Century onwards
[01:47:46] Century onwards um
[01:47:46] um uh it's very unlikely that they would
[01:47:49] uh it's very unlikely that they would have altered the archaic material to
[01:47:51] have altered the archaic material to make it look archaic right why would
[01:47:53] make it look archaic right why would they take classical expressions of
[01:47:55] they take classical expressions of Sunnah and make them generic
[01:47:58] Sunnah and make them generic doesn't make any it does make sense that
[01:48:00] doesn't make any it does make sense that people would take generic expressions
[01:48:01] people would take generic expressions and make them look classic
[01:48:03] and make them look classic cool so the pro one way for
[01:48:06] cool so the pro one way for falsification whereas we would not
[01:48:08] falsification whereas we would not expect the archaic the depictions of the
[01:48:10] expect the archaic the depictions of the what we're calling the archaic so now to
[01:48:12] what we're calling the archaic so now to have been created later on so it's got
[01:48:15] have been created later on so it's got to be earlier so the the conception that
[01:48:17] to be earlier so the the conception that we can push back earlier is what I'm now
[01:48:19] we can push back earlier is what I'm now then calling this this archaic
[01:48:21] then calling this this archaic conception which is this generic
[01:48:23] conception which is this generic non-concrete and and some vague notional
[01:48:26] non-concrete and and some vague notional kind of Sunnah so that's the basic
[01:48:28] kind of Sunnah so that's the basic argument this is just a totally standard
[01:48:29] argument this is just a totally standard kind of bit of historical reasoning we
[01:48:31] kind of bit of historical reasoning we do exactly the same thing for example in
[01:48:33] do exactly the same thing for example in early Christian Studies exactly the same
[01:48:35] early Christian Studies exactly the same kind of principle using similar kinds of
[01:48:37] kind of principle using similar kinds of evidence when you have or if they're
[01:48:39] evidence when you have or if they're sort of classical and what I'm gonna you
[01:48:40] sort of classical and what I'm gonna you know I don't want to beg the question
[01:48:41] know I don't want to beg the question but what I'm going to call the classical
[01:48:43] but what I'm going to call the classical an archaic material they're both
[01:48:45] an archaic material they're both preserved we can infer they have what
[01:48:46] preserved we can infer they have what we're calling the archaic one is the
[01:48:48] we're calling the archaic one is the earlier one based on the Criterion
[01:48:49] earlier one based on the Criterion dissimilarity
[01:48:51] dissimilarity now now did that earlier notion of
[01:48:54] now now did that earlier notion of Sunnah coexist with this other notion of
[01:48:58] Sunnah coexist with this other notion of Sunnah that later became dominant or you
[01:49:01] Sunnah that later became dominant or you think it preceded it in a sense
[01:49:04] think it preceded it in a sense at that time it makes sense preceding it
[01:49:07] at that time it makes sense preceding it interesting okay you can sort of see a
[01:49:10] interesting okay you can sort of see a progression what do we do about those
[01:49:15] progression what do we do about those reports like that the first four caliphs
[01:49:18] reports like that the first four caliphs or the first three caliphs burned a
[01:49:22] or the first three caliphs burned a collections of Hadith do you think those
[01:49:23] collections of Hadith do you think those are Fabrications then those are later
[01:49:25] are Fabrications then those are later those are historical anachronisms or how
[01:49:27] those are historical anachronisms or how do you deal with those
[01:49:29] do you deal with those I do I would see those as a product of a
[01:49:32] I do I would see those as a product of a different very different issue which is
[01:49:33] different very different issue which is the debate about whether or not you can
[01:49:34] the debate about whether or not you can write down Hadith
[01:49:36] write down Hadith and so you think those are back
[01:49:37] and so you think those are back projections onto them
[01:49:40] projections onto them yeah I would say that most of these
[01:49:41] yeah I would say that most of these hadiths about with whether or not you
[01:49:44] hadiths about with whether or not you can't write Hadith are just sort of in
[01:49:46] can't write Hadith are just sort of in dialogue these are these sort of equal
[01:49:48] dialogue these are these sort of equal in a place we mentioned before we have
[01:49:50] in a place we mentioned before we have these sort of you know contradictory
[01:49:51] these sort of you know contradictory headies so there are there's this debate
[01:49:53] headies so there are there's this debate raging across the you know uh eighth and
[01:49:55] raging across the you know uh eighth and 9th up until the basically the beginning
[01:49:58] 9th up until the basically the beginning of the 9th century uh about whether an
[01:50:00] of the 9th century uh about whether an it can write down Hadith and I would I
[01:50:02] it can write down Hadith and I would I would explain those sorts of hadiths as
[01:50:03] would explain those sorts of hadiths as a product of that debate
[01:50:06] a product of that debate um but the Chrono and Heinz in their
[01:50:09] um but the Chrono and Heinz in their book God's caliph I think it's chapter
[01:50:11] book God's caliph I think it's chapter five uh give a really nice sort of
[01:50:14] five uh give a really nice sort of summary of this material and of the
[01:50:18] summary of this material and of the progression
[01:50:20] progression that we can detect next that are um that
[01:50:24] that we can detect next that are um that or ascriptions that on Independent
[01:50:28] or ascriptions that on Independent grounds you know putting aside the issue
[01:50:30] grounds you know putting aside the issue of Hadith and just looking at the
[01:50:31] of Hadith and just looking at the content don't have any obvious
[01:50:33] content don't have any obvious anachronisms or have positive archaeisms
[01:50:37] anachronisms or have positive archaeisms within them or whatever the case may be
[01:50:39] within them or whatever the case may be when we put those kinds of ascriptions
[01:50:42] when we put those kinds of ascriptions in order what we find is first people
[01:50:46] in order what we find is first people are citing generic Sunnah then they
[01:50:48] are citing generic Sunnah then they start to cite more and more sort of a
[01:50:50] start to cite more and more sort of a specifically prophetical Sunnah and then
[01:50:52] specifically prophetical Sunnah and then they start to cite Hadith there's a
[01:50:54] they start to cite Hadith there's a clear progression there if Hadi Heath
[01:50:57] clear progression there if Hadi Heath existed belongs in order for that if
[01:50:59] existed belongs in order for that if the classical Notions in any way common
[01:51:02] the classical Notions in any way common or widespread early on there's no reason
[01:51:04] or widespread early on there's no reason that we should see that pattern the best
[01:51:05] that we should see that pattern the best explanation is just simply a development
[01:51:07] explanation is just simply a development from generics which actually comes out
[01:51:09] from generics which actually comes out of probably pre-sonic Arabia because
[01:51:11] of probably pre-sonic Arabia because it's a reported for the for any sort of
[01:51:13] it's a reported for the for any sort of authoritative figure could become a sort
[01:51:15] authoritative figure could become a sort of Target of sunder and so on and so
[01:51:16] of Target of sunder and so on and so forth and then and so there would have
[01:51:19] forth and then and so there would have been a sooner or the prophet but also
[01:51:21] been a sooner or the prophet but also you know Sooners of many others and the
[01:51:23] you know Sooners of many others and the center of the Prophet was eclipsed early
[01:51:24] center of the Prophet was eclipsed early on by all these other sunnahs and then
[01:51:26] on by all these other sunnahs and then over time more and more it gets you know
[01:51:28] over time more and more it gets you know there's an increasing emphasis on the
[01:51:30] there's an increasing emphasis on the profit over the course of the Ahmed
[01:51:31] profit over the course of the Ahmed period and we also see this in the
[01:51:32] period and we also see this in the inscriptional record and so on and so
[01:51:34] inscriptional record and so on and so forth
[01:51:34] forth and then eventually it becomes all
[01:51:37] and then eventually it becomes all focused specifically in the form of
[01:51:38] focused specifically in the form of Hadith
[01:51:40] Hadith um interestingly Harold murky actually
[01:51:42] um interestingly Harold murky actually says free
[01:51:44] says free he's
[01:51:46] he's and he says use of the word Sunnah
[01:51:50] and he says use of the word Sunnah uh which for him designates custom in
[01:51:54] uh which for him designates custom in the sense of the recognized social
[01:51:56] the sense of the recognized social practice in Makkah this is the same view
[01:51:58] practice in Makkah this is the same view as Joseph
[01:52:00] as Joseph uh and so there are very and again if
[01:52:02] uh and so there are very and again if you want reports here
[01:52:04] you want reports here you know the the whether it's poetry
[01:52:07] you know the the whether it's poetry whether it's Khalifa egyptics whether
[01:52:09] whether it's Khalifa egyptics whether it's other ports that all depict these
[01:52:11] it's other ports that all depict these these archaic Notions of Sunnah I mean
[01:52:14] these archaic Notions of Sunnah I mean it's discussed by
[01:52:16] it's discussed by shocked it's discussed by join ball
[01:52:18] shocked it's discussed by join ball Scott crenner and Hines discussed by
[01:52:20] Scott crenner and Hines discussed by bravman and of course matsky addresses
[01:52:22] bravman and of course matsky addresses it as well so I think I think it's this
[01:52:25] it as well so I think I think it's this is again one of those questions that's
[01:52:27] is again one of those questions that's actually very widespread in the field
[01:52:29] actually very widespread in the field there are a lot of major Scholars who
[01:52:31] there are a lot of major Scholars who have sort of argued for this and and
[01:52:33] have sort of argued for this and and hold to this so that's
[01:52:36] hold to this so that's problem number nine
[01:52:38] problem number nine all right let's move on to problem
[01:52:39] all right let's move on to problem number 10 shall we
[01:52:43] yep so problem number 10 is pretty
[01:52:46] yep so problem number 10 is pretty straightforward
[01:52:47] straightforward there are various ways whether it's
[01:52:49] there are various ways whether it's explicit reports
[01:52:51] explicit reports or reports that imply this or comparing
[01:52:56] or reports that imply this or comparing um
[01:52:57] um uh early reports to later collections
[01:53:00] uh early reports to later collections what we can observe is a rapid
[01:53:03] what we can observe is a rapid numerical growth in Hadith
[01:53:06] numerical growth in Hadith so
[01:53:07] so um
[01:53:08] um so for example there's a report
[01:53:10] so for example there's a report from
[01:53:13] who says I never heard Jaber
[01:53:18] who says I never heard Jaber say the messenger of God said
[01:53:21] say the messenger of God said yet the young men around here are seeing
[01:53:24] yet the young men around here are seeing the messenger of God said 20 times an
[01:53:26] the messenger of God said 20 times an hour and I never knew of jabber having
[01:53:28] hour and I never knew of jabber having narrated from the messenger of God more
[01:53:30] narrated from the messenger of God more than 15 or 16 hadiths or thereabouts
[01:53:33] than 15 or 16 hadiths or thereabouts so this is a report that is explicitly
[01:53:36] so this is a report that is explicitly attesting to the sudden and Rapid
[01:53:39] attesting to the sudden and Rapid appearance and proliferation of
[01:53:40] appearance and proliferation of prophetical hadiths now the report
[01:53:43] prophetical hadiths now the report doesn't have to be authentic right it
[01:53:44] doesn't have to be authentic right it works either way whether a report
[01:53:46] works either way whether a report actually goes back to Salah or whether
[01:53:48] actually goes back to Salah or whether this report is a slightly later contact
[01:53:51] this report is a slightly later contact for example the point is someone is
[01:53:54] for example the point is someone is observing and pointing out the rapid
[01:53:56] observing and pointing out the rapid collection and appearance of prophetical
[01:53:58] collection and appearance of prophetical Hadith where none were known previously
[01:54:02] Hadith where none were known previously and so what we also have for example
[01:54:04] and so what we also have for example there's a lot that IBN Abbas only heard
[01:54:07] there's a lot that IBN Abbas only heard nine or ten Hadith about the prop het
[01:54:10] nine or ten Hadith about the prop het now we'll try and rationalize this and
[01:54:12] now we'll try and rationalize this and they'll say well
[01:54:14] they'll say well even Abbas himself only directly heard
[01:54:16] even Abbas himself only directly heard Nano 10 from the prophet whereas all the
[01:54:19] Nano 10 from the prophet whereas all the other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
[01:54:22] other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds thousands of hadiths that he is
[01:54:24] thousands of hadiths that he is attributed is transmitting from the
[01:54:25] attributed is transmitting from the prophet he he got those indirectly from
[01:54:28] prophet he he got those indirectly from companions whom he hasn't named right
[01:54:31] companions whom he hasn't named right so is this is possible you've got to
[01:54:36] so is this is possible you've got to wonder though if the people who
[01:54:38] wonder though if the people who said IBN Abbas heard Donaldson Hadith
[01:54:41] said IBN Abbas heard Donaldson Hadith for the prophet these early years are
[01:54:44] for the prophet these early years are they really do they really have in mind
[01:54:45] they really do they really have in mind this sort of subtle distinction between
[01:54:47] this sort of subtle distinction between direct versus indirect I I seems kind of
[01:54:49] direct versus indirect I I seems kind of questionable to me but maybe they do
[01:54:51] questionable to me but maybe they do right but there's another problem which
[01:54:53] right but there's another problem which is that as Harold motsky points out
[01:54:57] is that as Harold motsky points out if you study business
[01:54:59] if you study business to um
[01:55:01] to um uh even Abbas in the corpora of again
[01:55:08] in in the material that he restructures
[01:55:12] in in the material that he restructures in his method I am actually skeptical of
[01:55:13] in his method I am actually skeptical of his method but if you use this method
[01:55:15] his method but if you use this method this is the method in his article on the
[01:55:17] this is the method in his article on the musana from and in his monograph on the
[01:55:19] musana from and in his monograph on the origins of Islamic jurisprudence
[01:55:21] origins of Islamic jurisprudence um musky argues what you actually find
[01:55:24] um musky argues what you actually find is that the those who are citing IBN
[01:55:26] is that the those who are citing IBN Abbas almost never virtually never cite
[01:55:30] Abbas almost never virtually never cite prophetical hadiths from IBN Abbas and
[01:55:33] prophetical hadiths from IBN Abbas and these are IBN abbasa's major local
[01:55:35] these are IBN abbasa's major local students in Mecca so this is really
[01:55:37] students in Mecca so this is really bizarre that later on we have thousands
[01:55:40] bizarre that later on we have thousands upon thousands of Hadith in Abbas
[01:55:43] upon thousands of Hadith in Abbas but whether it's that
[01:55:46] but whether it's that report you know this this is a
[01:55:48] report you know this this is a reconstruction of these early corpora
[01:55:50] reconstruction of these early corpora from people transmitting from Abbas
[01:55:52] from people transmitting from Abbas there's this you know vast disparity
[01:55:56] there's this you know vast disparity between tiny numbers or general absence
[01:55:59] between tiny numbers or general absence and then the vast later numbers so this
[01:56:02] and then the vast later numbers so this is another problem
[01:56:03] is another problem hello
[01:56:06] hello that we find in Hadith is that we can
[01:56:08] that we find in Hadith is that we can wrap a numerical
[01:56:14] okay great now how would you respond
[01:56:16] okay great now how would you respond well let me ask you this question uh
[01:56:19] well let me ask you this question uh sometimes are you are there okay you are
[01:56:21] sometimes are you are there okay you are you kind of cut out for a second
[01:56:23] you kind of cut out for a second um Abu Herrera gets kind of a lot a bad
[01:56:27] um Abu Herrera gets kind of a lot a bad end of the stick as a you know people
[01:56:29] end of the stick as a you know people criticize him saying that he just Mass
[01:56:32] criticize him saying that he just Mass fabricated Hadith
[01:56:34] fabricated Hadith our critics of the Sunni traditionalist
[01:56:36] our critics of the Sunni traditionalist Paradigm this is raised by quranis by
[01:56:39] Paradigm this is raised by quranis by modernist Muslims as well as by shias
[01:56:42] modernist Muslims as well as by shias now and feminists as well because a lot
[01:56:45] now and feminists as well because a lot of misogynistic hadiths are attributed
[01:56:47] of misogynistic hadiths are attributed to him
[01:56:48] to him I kind of feel that maybe Abu Pereira is
[01:56:50] I kind of feel that maybe Abu Pereira is innocent in all of this because he's
[01:56:52] innocent in all of this because he's just an inscriptional figure here
[01:56:55] just an inscriptional figure here um what's your take on that
[01:56:59] uh that's my sense as well with number
[01:57:01] uh that's my sense as well with number 11 this is um related to the point about
[01:57:05] 11 this is um related to the point about early so not but this is more direct
[01:57:06] early so not but this is more direct right so what we mentioned before about
[01:57:08] right so what we mentioned before about archaic notion of Sunnah is that people
[01:57:10] archaic notion of Sunnah is that people seem to be citing there seems to be this
[01:57:13] seem to be citing there seems to be this widespread adherence across the board to
[01:57:16] widespread adherence across the board to this sort of generic or sort of um
[01:57:21] this sort of generic or sort of um vague non-concrete notion of Sunnah
[01:57:24] vague non-concrete notion of Sunnah early on what you also find in all these
[01:57:27] early on what you also find in all these sort of early uh ascriptions that we can
[01:57:29] sort of early uh ascriptions that we can independently date back to you know for
[01:57:33] independently date back to you know for example you know across the eighth
[01:57:36] example you know across the eighth Century entry maybe even slightly
[01:57:40] Century entry maybe even slightly earlier in some cases in the material
[01:57:42] earlier in some cases in the material that we can push back independently of
[01:57:44] that we can push back independently of Hadith and independently of Hadith
[01:57:45] Hadith and independently of Hadith considerations is a near total absence
[01:57:50] considerations is a near total absence of Hadith peace
[01:57:53] of Hadith peace prophetical or otherwise
[01:57:55] prophetical or otherwise and so the probably the the best work on
[01:57:59] and so the probably the the best work on this is is Michael cook uh early Muslim
[01:58:02] this is is Michael cook uh early Muslim dogma and he just sort of goes through
[01:58:03] dogma and he just sort of goes through and and I can just I mean I don't want
[01:58:05] and and I can just I mean I don't want to spend too much time giving too many
[01:58:06] to spend too much time giving too many details because I know we're sort of
[01:58:07] details because I know we're sort of taking a bit of time here but if you
[01:58:09] taking a bit of time here but if you just go from like the first haraji
[01:58:12] just go from like the first haraji rasala ascribed to IBN ebald to the uh
[01:58:16] rasala ascribed to IBN ebald to the uh risala ascribed to Hassan Muhammad to
[01:58:20] risala ascribed to Hassan Muhammad to the haraji Corpus uh subscribe to Jabra
[01:58:24] the haraji Corpus uh subscribe to Jabra ibin Zay you know you just go through
[01:58:26] ibin Zay you know you just go through all these kinds of texts the kitabel
[01:58:28] all these kinds of texts the kitabel is the jar
[01:58:31] is the jar um and so on and so forth what you find
[01:58:33] um and so on and so forth what you find is other than one or two really obvious
[01:58:36] is other than one or two really obvious interpolations and then finally
[01:58:40] interpolations and then finally when you hit the uh resale is
[01:58:45] when you hit the uh resale is which is by Abu hanifa now it doesn't
[01:58:49] which is by Abu hanifa now it doesn't contain any prophetical hits but it does
[01:58:51] contain any prophetical hits but it does contain numerous non-prophetical hadiths
[01:58:53] contain numerous non-prophetical hadiths and then as you go to anything
[01:58:56] and then as you go to anything subsequent to that we now find more and
[01:58:59] subsequent to that we now find more and more or hadiths are being success say
[01:59:03] more or hadiths are being success say sort of their Spirit situation
[01:59:06] sort of their Spirit situation practically no
[01:59:08] practically no Traditions are cited in letters or
[01:59:10] Traditions are cited in letters or speeches by umayyad caliphs Governors or
[01:59:13] speeches by umayyad caliphs Governors or secretaries none seem to be induced by
[01:59:16] secretaries none seem to be induced by rebels scarcely any appear in
[01:59:19] rebels scarcely any appear in theological Epistles hardly any are
[01:59:21] theological Epistles hardly any are cited in accounts about or mayor judges
[01:59:24] cited in accounts about or mayor judges judges being required to know the Quran
[01:59:26] judges being required to know the Quran not tradition if thou records of Islamic
[01:59:29] not tradition if thou records of Islamic civilization had stopped at the year 150
[01:59:32] civilization had stopped at the year 150 Hadith would have appeared to us as a
[01:59:35] Hadith would have appeared to us as a marginal phenomenon unquote
[01:59:39] marginal phenomenon unquote so that I feel like is huge so basically
[01:59:42] so that I feel like is huge so basically if we look at the early sources they're
[01:59:45] if we look at the early sources they're very scanty when it comes to Hadith is
[01:59:47] very scanty when it comes to Hadith is that right we're up to number 12. all
[01:59:50] that right we're up to number 12. all right and this is
[01:59:52] right and this is the retrojection or raising of Hadith
[01:59:56] the retrojection or raising of Hadith so this is where you find that specific
[01:59:58] so this is where you find that specific doctrines precedents wordings and even
[02:00:01] doctrines precedents wordings and even parallel versions of the same Rapport
[02:00:04] parallel versions of the same Rapport simultaneously
[02:00:07] as an inscription to a follower
[02:00:10] as an inscription to a follower and the description to a companion and
[02:00:12] and the description to a companion and or
[02:00:13] or also an inscription to the prophet
[02:00:16] also an inscription to the prophet and so uh and in addition to that
[02:00:19] and so uh and in addition to that the ratio of cited Hadith types
[02:00:24] the ratio of cited Hadith types you know to followers versus companions
[02:00:26] you know to followers versus companions versus the prophet it changes
[02:00:29] versus the prophet it changes across early collections over the course
[02:00:32] across early collections over the course of the 8th and 9th centuries from Mostly
[02:00:35] of the 8th and 9th centuries from Mostly follower hadiths in the mid to late 8th
[02:00:37] follower hadiths in the mid to late 8th Century to mostly companion hadiths at
[02:00:39] Century to mostly companion hadiths at the turn of the 9th century
[02:00:41] the turn of the 9th century to mostly prophetical hadiths although
[02:00:44] to mostly prophetical hadiths although that companion phase is very short but
[02:00:46] that companion phase is very short but um
[02:00:48] um uh you basically have this progression
[02:00:51] uh you basically have this progression in the ratio of cider material in the
[02:00:54] in the ratio of cider material in the earliest you know early extent Hadith
[02:00:56] earliest you know early extent Hadith Collections and then to top all of this
[02:00:58] Collections and then to top all of this off we have reports in the Hadith
[02:01:01] off we have reports in the Hadith critical literature
[02:01:03] critical literature the explicit records numerous instances
[02:01:06] the explicit records numerous instances discussed of
[02:01:08] discussed of raising
[02:01:10] raising this sort of bath projection from being
[02:01:13] this sort of bath projection from being an inscription to a companion for
[02:01:15] an inscription to a companion for example back to being a description to
[02:01:17] example back to being a description to the prophet and so all of this evidence
[02:01:20] the prophet and so all of this evidence the simplest and the best explanation
[02:01:21] the simplest and the best explanation for all of this evidence is that there
[02:01:24] for all of this evidence is that there was a general process of progressive
[02:01:27] was a general process of progressive retrojection over the course of the you
[02:01:31] retrojection over the course of the you know the second and third Islamic
[02:01:32] know the second and third Islamic centuries as religious Authority is
[02:01:35] centuries as religious Authority is increased interestingly shifted you know
[02:01:37] increased interestingly shifted you know to from leader figures to earlier
[02:01:39] to from leader figures to earlier figures and so things are being
[02:01:41] figures and so things are being retributed precedence reports so on and
[02:01:44] retributed precedence reports so on and so forth so there is an argument that
[02:01:47] so forth so there is an argument that the reason why they get retrojected back
[02:01:50] the reason why they get retrojected back is because later the standard is raised
[02:01:52] is because later the standard is raised and so they seek out
[02:01:54] and so they seek out those chains and fill them up does that
[02:01:57] those chains and fill them up does that make sense this is what I've heard
[02:01:58] make sense this is what I've heard truthful say sure so how can you respond
[02:02:01] truthful say sure so how can you respond to that
[02:02:03] to that there's always a way out so we can
[02:02:04] there's always a way out so we can always build an auxiliary hypothesis
[02:02:06] always build an auxiliary hypothesis basically
[02:02:07] basically sure
[02:02:08] sure that this is not going to work so the
[02:02:11] that this is not going to work so the first problem is that raising is widely
[02:02:15] first problem is that raising is widely acknowledged so that automatically
[02:02:18] acknowledged so that automatically sort of creates a reason to suspect that
[02:02:21] sort of creates a reason to suspect that is just raising because it's white
[02:02:24] is just raising because it's white watches the thing that was going on all
[02:02:25] watches the thing that was going on all the time thing it's just like an
[02:02:27] the time thing it's just like an established you know point of
[02:02:28] established you know point of established background knowledge the
[02:02:30] established background knowledge the second thing
[02:02:31] second thing is that in the case of specific like
[02:02:34] is that in the case of specific like competing versions of the same Hadith
[02:02:36] competing versions of the same Hadith this is definitely not going to work
[02:02:38] this is definitely not going to work because it's the same Hadith just one
[02:02:40] because it's the same Hadith just one version is attributed to a like a a a
[02:02:44] version is attributed to a like a a a companion and one version is attributed
[02:02:45] companion and one version is attributed profit for example there can only be one
[02:02:47] profit for example there can only be one original version of the specific Hadith
[02:02:49] original version of the specific Hadith in question
[02:02:50] in question right they like they they have the same
[02:02:52] right they like they they have the same words in the same order and so on and so
[02:02:54] words in the same order and so on and so forth It's a variance of the same Hadith
[02:02:55] forth It's a variance of the same Hadith there's one original you know
[02:02:57] there's one original you know formulation and then there's a secondary
[02:03:00] formulation and then there's a secondary formulation right so it's just a simple
[02:03:01] formulation right so it's just a simple question which one is more likely to
[02:03:03] question which one is more likely to represent the original and the Criterion
[02:03:06] represent the original and the Criterion of the similarity is absolutely clear
[02:03:08] of the similarity is absolutely clear here it's much more likely given that
[02:03:11] here it's much more likely given that you know the material is transmitted
[02:03:12] you know the material is transmitted through and preserved by people who are
[02:03:17] through and preserved by people who are um you know prioritize the authority of
[02:03:19] um you know prioritize the authority of the Prophet over Companions and so on
[02:03:21] the Prophet over Companions and so on and so forth It's My much more likely
[02:03:24] and so forth It's My much more likely than a description to a companion was
[02:03:26] than a description to a companion was changed into a description to the
[02:03:27] changed into a description to the prophet rather than vice versa it's just
[02:03:30] prophet rather than vice versa it's just straightforward
[02:03:31] straightforward so another problem
[02:03:32] so another problem is
[02:03:35] is if all of these prophetical precedents
[02:03:38] if all of these prophetical precedents this is putting aside the direct when
[02:03:40] this is putting aside the direct when you have two different versions of the
[02:03:41] you have two different versions of the same report that's just unambiguous
[02:03:43] same report that's just unambiguous clearly raising is the best explanation
[02:03:45] clearly raising is the best explanation right and even for example matsuki ended
[02:03:47] right and even for example matsuki ended up you know initially Muskie was sort of
[02:03:49] up you know initially Muskie was sort of critical of shocked on this but even he
[02:03:51] critical of shocked on this but even he ended up identifying numerous instances
[02:03:53] ended up identifying numerous instances of raising for example in exeterical
[02:03:54] of raising for example in exeterical Hadith for example back to IBN Abbas
[02:03:56] Hadith for example back to IBN Abbas right so this is a pretty widely
[02:03:58] right so this is a pretty widely accepted phenomenon but even so putting
[02:04:00] accepted phenomenon but even so putting aside those ones and just looking more
[02:04:01] aside those ones and just looking more generally at when a or a Doctrine is
[02:04:06] generally at when a or a Doctrine is attributed to both let's say a prophet
[02:04:08] attributed to both let's say a prophet and a companion and a follower for
[02:04:10] and a companion and a follower for example
[02:04:11] example um
[02:04:13] why would if all those prophetical
[02:04:17] why would if all those prophetical versions
[02:04:18] versions existed all along
[02:04:20] existed all along why are the early collections just
[02:04:22] why are the early collections just mostly preserving the follower and
[02:04:24] mostly preserving the follower and companion versions
[02:04:25] companion versions it seems really weird right like
[02:04:28] it seems really weird right like remember there are thousands and
[02:04:30] remember there are thousands and thousands and thousands of prophetical
[02:04:32] thousands and thousands of prophetical hadiths so what's the idea that they
[02:04:35] hadiths so what's the idea that they were all just floating along in parallel
[02:04:37] were all just floating along in parallel and just no for what reason
[02:04:39] and just no for what reason no one was citing them no one was
[02:04:41] no one was citing them no one was deducing them they only get sort of come
[02:04:44] deducing them they only get sort of come into play later on
[02:04:46] into play later on it's really weird it's really important
[02:04:48] it's really weird it's really important to take to posit that you know these
[02:04:51] to take to posit that you know these hadiths aren't being cited in early on
[02:04:53] hadiths aren't being cited in early on in doctrinal contexts right
[02:04:56] in doctrinal contexts right um
[02:04:57] um they aren't being used in ritual because
[02:05:00] they aren't being used in ritual because you use the Quran for that and they also
[02:05:03] you use the Quran for that and they also aren't being I mean for like liturgical
[02:05:05] aren't being I mean for like liturgical purposes I mean you know recitational
[02:05:06] purposes I mean you know recitational purposes and they also aren't being you
[02:05:09] purposes and they also aren't being you know this these are not historical these
[02:05:11] know this these are not historical these are doctrinal right this is generally a
[02:05:13] are doctrinal right this is generally a different material from the historical
[02:05:15] different material from the historical so what is what are all these thousands
[02:05:17] so what is what are all these thousands of thou what were they doing where were
[02:05:19] of thou what were they doing where were they what were they they're just like
[02:05:21] they what were they they're just like people just keep them stashed if they're
[02:05:23] people just keep them stashed if they're making us right the the much simpler
[02:05:26] making us right the the much simpler explanation here is just that
[02:05:27] explanation here is just that prophetical versions are being created
[02:05:30] prophetical versions are being created over time that's just you know that's
[02:05:32] over time that's just you know that's just this much simpler explanation for
[02:05:33] just this much simpler explanation for the evidence and again it conforms with
[02:05:36] the evidence and again it conforms with the fact that in general it was
[02:05:37] the fact that in general it was acknowledged that things were being
[02:05:38] acknowledged that things were being retrojected and it also just met you
[02:05:40] retrojected and it also just met you know it means just directly explains why
[02:05:42] know it means just directly explains why early on overwhelmingly non-prophetical
[02:05:45] early on overwhelmingly non-prophetical things the precedents are being cited
[02:05:46] things the precedents are being cited and then over time as the collections go
[02:05:48] and then over time as the collections go on more and more prophetical versions
[02:05:50] on more and more prophetical versions are appearing now not all look there are
[02:05:52] are appearing now not all look there are going to be some archaic prophetical
[02:05:54] going to be some archaic prophetical Hadith right even said this but as a
[02:05:57] Hadith right even said this but as a General explanation from Material it
[02:06:00] General explanation from Material it makes sense to posit that the
[02:06:01] makes sense to posit that the prophetical versions are secondary or
[02:06:04] prophetical versions are secondary or even tertiary in the development of
[02:06:07] even tertiary in the development of material if that makes sense
[02:06:11] yeah that's great this is awesome so
[02:06:13] yeah that's great this is awesome so let's uh move on to the next
[02:06:16] let's uh move on to the next what number are we on now
[02:06:18] what number are we on now oh one other thing I just want to
[02:06:20] oh one other thing I just want to quickly add to that by the way is
[02:06:23] quickly add to that by the way is it's not like they didn't have access to
[02:06:25] it's not like they didn't have access to the prophetical versions if they existed
[02:06:27] the prophetical versions if they existed they must have if they exist in their
[02:06:29] they must have if they exist in their early they must have had access to them
[02:06:30] early they must have had access to them because the prophetical hadiths and the
[02:06:33] because the prophetical hadiths and the non-pritical hadiths are largely coming
[02:06:34] non-pritical hadiths are largely coming from the same people when you go back to
[02:06:36] from the same people when you go back to the earlier segments of this nads it's
[02:06:38] the earlier segments of this nads it's usually it's there's a heavy overlap
[02:06:40] usually it's there's a heavy overlap it's often just the same people and the
[02:06:42] it's often just the same people and the geography is Mecca Medina kufa Basra
[02:06:47] geography is Mecca Medina kufa Basra right and then some things also in in
[02:06:49] right and then some things also in in Syria but you know overwhelmingly it's
[02:06:52] Syria but you know overwhelmingly it's Michael Medina kufur and Buster
[02:06:53] Michael Medina kufur and Buster overwhelmingly almost all Hadith come
[02:06:56] overwhelmingly almost all Hadith come from these four centers overwhelmingly
[02:06:58] from these four centers overwhelmingly so it's the same circles of people more
[02:07:00] so it's the same circles of people more or less in the same regions right so you
[02:07:03] or less in the same regions right so you know I think you can't pause it like oh
[02:07:04] know I think you can't pause it like oh they just didn't know well the Medina's
[02:07:07] they just didn't know well the Medina's surely would have had access to the
[02:07:10] surely would have had access to the median inversions right the Medina
[02:07:12] median inversions right the Medina versions you know and the crew friends
[02:07:15] versions you know and the crew friends for the coupon version and so on and so
[02:07:16] for the coupon version and so on and so forth so I also just want to clarify
[02:07:18] forth so I also just want to clarify that because some people might positive
[02:07:19] that because some people might positive access I don't think that works for the
[02:07:21] access I don't think that works for the most part you you know the Medina's
[02:07:24] most part you you know the Medina's ought to have had access to the
[02:07:26] ought to have had access to the prophetical versions allegedly from uh
[02:07:28] prophetical versions allegedly from uh Medina and the kufence for the Cooper
[02:07:30] Medina and the kufence for the Cooper ones and so on and so forth so I just
[02:07:31] ones and so on and so forth so I just wanted to also preempt that
[02:07:33] wanted to also preempt that because I know people want to argue that
[02:07:35] because I know people want to argue that well companion precedence or the
[02:07:37] well companion precedence or the follower precedence they're actually
[02:07:39] follower precedence they're actually they would just actually just citing The
[02:07:41] they would just actually just citing The Profit that's what's going on there this
[02:07:43] Profit that's what's going on there this again doesn't make any sense number one
[02:07:47] again doesn't make any sense number one if
[02:07:49] if they were so obsessed
[02:07:52] they were so obsessed with
[02:07:53] with the sooner of the profit so they will
[02:07:55] the sooner of the profit so they will always following his precedence
[02:07:57] always following his precedence why wouldn't they cite him do you see
[02:07:59] why wouldn't they cite him do you see what I'm saying it's like it seems kind
[02:08:01] what I'm saying it's like it seems kind of weird right that what's being
[02:08:02] of weird right that what's being positive to explain oh they're all just
[02:08:04] positive to explain oh they're all just always following the prophet you know
[02:08:06] always following the prophet you know well then why aren't they actually
[02:08:06] well then why aren't they actually citing him first thing second thing
[02:08:09] citing him first thing second thing there are early prophetical hadiths even
[02:08:12] there are early prophetical hadiths even in the early like you know collections
[02:08:14] in the early like you know collections that are mostly hadiths you you usually
[02:08:16] that are mostly hadiths you you usually from radicals they're explicitly
[02:08:18] from radicals they're explicitly prophetical
[02:08:20] prophetical so I could always be prophetical see
[02:08:22] so I could always be prophetical see what I'm saying it's like it doesn't
[02:08:22] what I'm saying it's like it doesn't make any sense if some are being
[02:08:24] make any sense if some are being specified as prophetical that would
[02:08:25] specified as prophetical that would imply that the rest are not right
[02:08:27] imply that the rest are not right otherwise why make that sort of
[02:08:28] otherwise why make that sort of Distinction so this that response
[02:08:30] Distinction so this that response doesn't make any sense in my opinion so
[02:08:32] doesn't make any sense in my opinion so yeah I
[02:08:33] yeah I just think this
[02:08:35] just think this simple explanation here the best
[02:08:37] simple explanation here the best explanation
[02:08:38] explanation that's of in general
[02:08:40] that's of in general this sort of progressive retrojection of
[02:08:42] this sort of progressive retrojection of material from the followers to the
[02:08:44] material from the followers to the companions to the prophet allowing of
[02:08:47] companions to the prophet allowing of course that there are some exceptions
[02:08:48] course that there are some exceptions you know there are some early you know
[02:08:50] you know there are some early you know sometimes a prisoner was just you know
[02:08:52] sometimes a prisoner was just you know projected straight back to the prophet
[02:08:53] projected straight back to the prophet and there were no intermediaries Etc
[02:08:55] and there were no intermediaries Etc problem number 13
[02:08:57] problem number 13 is the way in which that there are
[02:08:59] is the way in which that there are various peculiar patterns correlations
[02:09:01] various peculiar patterns correlations and relationships in Hadith and in
[02:09:04] and relationships in Hadith and in between there is nards and descriptions
[02:09:07] between there is nards and descriptions and content that don't really make sense
[02:09:09] and content that don't really make sense or don't really make any sense as a
[02:09:12] or don't really make any sense as a product of genuine history and
[02:09:13] product of genuine history and historical transmission but that only
[02:09:15] historical transmission but that only makes sense or that make more sense as a
[02:09:18] makes sense or that make more sense as a product of later debates and later
[02:09:20] product of later debates and later ascription preferences now that's a
[02:09:22] ascription preferences now that's a little you know what does that mean
[02:09:23] little you know what does that mean that's maybe that's a little sort of
[02:09:24] that's maybe that's a little sort of abstract
[02:09:25] abstract after you know so let me give you the
[02:09:28] after you know so let me give you the some amp of this kind and hopefully
[02:09:31] some amp of this kind and hopefully then it'll it'll make more sense
[02:09:34] then it'll it'll make more sense so one example of this is the fact that
[02:09:37] so one example of this is the fact that you can often form legal hadiths
[02:09:41] you can often form legal hadiths especially not just other kinds of
[02:09:43] especially not just other kinds of Hadith as well but especially legal
[02:09:44] Hadith as well but especially legal hadiths into a dialectic into a back and
[02:09:49] hadiths into a dialectic into a back and forth sort of argumentation or a
[02:09:51] forth sort of argumentation or a progression of argumentation like a
[02:09:54] progression of argumentation like a series they look like a series of
[02:09:55] series they look like a series of counter hadiths each one responding to
[02:09:58] counter hadiths each one responding to the next and you can do this on many
[02:10:00] the next and you can do this on many issues and if these hadiths are just
[02:10:03] issues and if these hadiths are just genuine memories of things people
[02:10:05] genuine memories of things people actually said and did it's really weird
[02:10:07] actually said and did it's really weird that in terms of the content they would
[02:10:10] that in terms of the content they would just so happen to form all of these
[02:10:11] just so happen to form all of these debates these progressions and debates
[02:10:13] debates these progressions and debates over and over do you see what I'm saying
[02:10:15] over and over do you see what I'm saying it's like it's weird that people's
[02:10:16] it's like it's weird that people's historical statements and what and
[02:10:18] historical statements and what and events of their lives sort of often just
[02:10:20] events of their lives sort of often just happen to line up into a legal debate
[02:10:24] happen to line up into a legal debate do you see what I'm saying so like
[02:10:26] do you see what I'm saying so like so for example uh
[02:10:29] so for example uh uh an example is that the alleged events
[02:10:32] uh an example is that the alleged events and statements of the prophet and the
[02:10:34] and statements of the prophet and the companions
[02:10:35] companions about whether or not you can marry
[02:10:38] about whether or not you can marry whilst you're in a state of real
[02:10:41] whilst you're in a state of real consecration right
[02:10:45] these uh defendants about
[02:10:50] these uh defendants about marrying as a muhrim in that state or
[02:10:53] marrying as a muhrim in that state or rescinding the marriage of a mushroom or
[02:10:55] rescinding the marriage of a mushroom or allowing marriage as a or forbidding
[02:10:58] allowing marriage as a or forbidding marriage as a mushroom these reports and
[02:11:01] marriage as a mushroom these reports and events and and statements just so happen
[02:11:04] events and and statements just so happen to line up with Medina and meccan legal
[02:11:08] to line up with Medina and meccan legal debates
[02:11:09] debates and sometimes with the same people the
[02:11:12] and sometimes with the same people the same people being invoked in opposing
[02:11:14] same people being invoked in opposing ways right so if all this is just the
[02:11:16] ways right so if all this is just the product of genuine transmission it's
[02:11:19] product of genuine transmission it's really we would all sort of line up for
[02:11:21] really we would all sort of line up for this in meccan debate if you start
[02:11:23] this in meccan debate if you start saying but if if these are being created
[02:11:25] saying but if if these are being created one after the other in response to each
[02:11:26] one after the other in response to each other it makes perfect sense or another
[02:11:29] other it makes perfect sense or another example this is what I look at the dean
[02:11:32] example this is what I look at the dean and cite their local follower
[02:11:36] and cite their local follower as having the position that you do not
[02:11:38] as having the position that you do not have to consult wins when arranging
[02:11:41] have to consult wins when arranging marriages for them
[02:11:42] marriages for them right sort of force marriage Doctrine
[02:11:44] right sort of force marriage Doctrine but the cuffins site
[02:11:48] but the cuffins site saying that the prophet said that no you
[02:11:50] saying that the prophet said that no you have to consult virgins
[02:11:52] have to consult virgins so this is like this would be very odd
[02:11:55] so this is like this would be very odd as a genuine hit right but as a product
[02:11:58] as a genuine hit right but as a product of a debate it makes perfect sense right
[02:12:00] of a debate it makes perfect sense right the kufins are responding and they're
[02:12:03] the kufins are responding and they're invoking the authority of the medinans
[02:12:05] invoking the authority of the medinans to make the coup in position and using
[02:12:07] to make the coup in position and using him to cite a higher authority of the
[02:12:09] him to cite a higher authority of the profit you see what I'm saying like the
[02:12:10] profit you see what I'm saying like the as genuine history these all seem kind
[02:12:13] as genuine history these all seem kind of odd don't really make sense but when
[02:12:14] of odd don't really make sense but when you actually like it's like a sort of a
[02:12:16] you actually like it's like a sort of a weird coincidence right but when you
[02:12:18] weird coincidence right but when you actually
[02:12:19] actually uh uh think of it in terms of
[02:12:21] uh uh think of it in terms of description it makes perfect sense
[02:12:22] description it makes perfect sense because these are counter traditions did
[02:12:25] because these are counter traditions did you sort of see what I'm saying
[02:12:28] yes I do and even in my own experience
[02:12:31] yes I do and even in my own experience I've seen that many of the opinions that
[02:12:35] I've seen that many of the opinions that they report of the salaf will be
[02:12:38] they report of the salaf will be contradictory so one opinion will be
[02:12:41] contradictory so one opinion will be attributed to the same person two
[02:12:42] attributed to the same person two opinions will be attributed to the same
[02:12:44] opinions will be attributed to the same person by different people and that's
[02:12:46] person by different people and that's why I've lost trust in this as being a
[02:12:48] why I've lost trust in this as being a genuine memory at all which is why that
[02:12:51] genuine memory at all which is why that really complication the view of the
[02:12:53] really complication the view of the cellophys that we're following the views
[02:12:55] cellophys that we're following the views of the salaf well I think this is a
[02:12:56] of the salaf well I think this is a later back projection obviously at least
[02:12:58] later back projection obviously at least in my research even just going through
[02:13:00] in my research even just going through the classical commentaries this is what
[02:13:02] the classical commentaries this is what I've noticed sure but okay great uh
[02:13:04] I've noticed sure but okay great uh let's uh move on what number are we and
[02:13:07] let's uh move on what number are we and then there's a final example ish of fact
[02:13:10] then there's a final example ish of fact that they're disproportionately
[02:13:11] that they're disproportionately long-lived people at the level of
[02:13:14] long-lived people at the level of Companions and followers in is not this
[02:13:17] Companions and followers in is not this makes sense an attempts to breach the
[02:13:18] makes sense an attempts to breach the Gap in the proceed sort of from the era
[02:13:21] Gap in the proceed sort of from the era of isnab's back into the pre-isnar era
[02:13:23] of isnab's back into the pre-isnar era and sort of the simplest way to bridge
[02:13:25] and sort of the simplest way to bridge that Gap is just to sort of cite really
[02:13:27] that Gap is just to sort of cite really long-lived people and that would explain
[02:13:29] long-lived people and that would explain why there are so many really long lived
[02:13:31] why there are so many really long lived people in the earliest segments of these
[02:13:33] people in the earliest segments of these nuts now of course the traditionalist
[02:13:35] nuts now of course the traditionalist called and you know couldn't it just be
[02:13:37] called and you know couldn't it just be that the longer you know they like
[02:13:39] that the longer you know they like survived longer so they acquired more
[02:13:40] survived longer so they acquired more students and I think that's fine except
[02:13:43] students and I think that's fine except it seems odd that this is overwhelming
[02:13:46] it seems odd that this is overwhelming the case for the earliest generations
[02:13:48] the case for the earliest generations and especially it seems odd that this is
[02:13:52] and especially it seems odd that this is the case and this is what joinball
[02:13:53] the case and this is what joinball argues for kufa the kufins in particular
[02:13:56] argues for kufa the kufins in particular are disproportionately citing really
[02:13:59] are disproportionately citing really long-lived figures especially at the
[02:14:02] long-lived figures especially at the level of followers and that makes sense
[02:14:03] level of followers and that makes sense because they were Shackled with quite a
[02:14:05] because they were Shackled with quite a short-lived
[02:14:07] short-lived companion and quite a short-lived
[02:14:09] companion and quite a short-lived follow-up
[02:14:11] follow-up so it makes a comment for that
[02:14:14] so it makes a comment for that and that would condition it sort of uh
[02:14:17] and that would condition it sort of uh um number of these sort of long-lived
[02:14:21] um number of these sort of long-lived people in their isnabis so this is this
[02:14:24] people in their isnabis so this is this is your own boss argument so James
[02:14:28] is your own boss argument so James um
[02:14:29] um you know especially that that fact
[02:14:31] you know especially that that fact proportionate number of maroon it seems
[02:14:34] proportionate number of maroon it seems simpler to explain that as a product of
[02:14:36] simpler to explain that as a product of description and not as genuine history
[02:14:38] description and not as genuine history why would what can you if they be
[02:14:40] why would what can you if they be disproportional what
[02:14:42] disproportional what can you explain that from the beginning
[02:14:44] can you explain that from the beginning so explain this long-lived widest
[02:14:47] so explain this long-lived widest generation of long-lived trade-ins
[02:14:49] generation of long-lived trade-ins because that's super interesting I would
[02:14:51] because that's super interesting I would say
[02:14:53] say sure so
[02:14:55] sure so um if you look at the issnads in the
[02:14:58] um if you look at the issnads in the earliest segment of this NAD which is
[02:15:01] earliest segment of this NAD which is the Companions and the followers
[02:15:04] the Companions and the followers uh disproportionately you find really
[02:15:08] uh disproportionately you find really long-lived people
[02:15:10] long-lived people in at that point in this land
[02:15:13] in at that point in this land um and especially in kufiness notes this
[02:15:16] um and especially in kufiness notes this is join Ball's argument and so
[02:15:19] is join Ball's argument and so it seems odd that that would be the
[02:15:22] it seems odd that that would be the product of genuine history because you
[02:15:24] product of genuine history because you might well look longer lift ball they
[02:15:27] might well look longer lift ball they last longer and they are able to accrue
[02:15:30] last longer and they are able to accrue more students and that's why they're
[02:15:31] more students and that's why they're disproportionately would appear but that
[02:15:34] disproportionately would appear but that why would that be the case
[02:15:35] why would that be the case overwhelmingly at the very beginning of
[02:15:37] overwhelmingly at the very beginning of the system you know that they're still
[02:15:39] the system you know that they're still if yoin bowl is correct there's
[02:15:42] if yoin bowl is correct there's something odd there that doesn't really
[02:15:43] something odd there that doesn't really seem explained as a historical
[02:15:45] seem explained as a historical occurrence but is perfectly explained by
[02:15:48] occurrence but is perfectly explained by uh pattern of inscription which is the
[02:15:51] uh pattern of inscription which is the attempt to reach back as easily or
[02:15:53] attempt to reach back as easily or quickly as possible
[02:15:55] quickly as possible from the 8th Century back to the prophet
[02:15:59] from the 8th Century back to the prophet so you're trying to bridge the
[02:16:01] so you're trying to bridge the preistinal gaps to established you know
[02:16:04] preistinal gaps to established you know earlier on and so this would explain
[02:16:06] earlier on and so this would explain that and the kufen the fact that they
[02:16:10] that and the kufen the fact that they tended again according to joinball but
[02:16:12] tended again according to joinball but the fact that they tend to
[02:16:13] the fact that they tend to disproportionately appear in kufanis
[02:16:15] disproportionately appear in kufanis nads would be explained by the fact that
[02:16:18] nads would be explained by the fact that the kufans had an un they were Shackled
[02:16:20] the kufans had an un they were Shackled with an unusually
[02:16:22] with an unusually short-lived companion who they really
[02:16:24] short-lived companion who they really venerated which is abdullivan mass Road
[02:16:27] venerated which is abdullivan mass Road and an unusually short-lived follower
[02:16:31] and an unusually short-lived follower Ibrahim so they need more long-lived
[02:16:35] Ibrahim so they need more long-lived people to bridge those kind of gaps if
[02:16:36] people to bridge those kind of gaps if they want sort of shortest nouns but
[02:16:39] they want sort of shortest nouns but other regions don't need that as much
[02:16:40] other regions don't need that as much they have much longer winds for example
[02:16:44] they have much longer winds for example um Anderson Abu Herrera and so on
[02:16:48] um Anderson Abu Herrera and so on so uh
[02:16:50] so uh yeah but just to clarify it's what's
[02:16:52] yeah but just to clarify it's what's quite I found it a little comical that
[02:16:55] quite I found it a little comical that basically in this generation there are a
[02:16:56] basically in this generation there are a bunch of people who live what do they
[02:16:58] bunch of people who live what do they call Centenary centenarian like live
[02:17:01] call Centenary centenarian like live past 100 years so I mean it really
[02:17:04] past 100 years so I mean it really strains credibility I would say
[02:17:09] to be very uh very interesting
[02:17:12] to be very uh very interesting sure and so but not I'm not the people
[02:17:15] sure and so but not I'm not the people I'm talking about unnecessarily live to
[02:17:17] I'm talking about unnecessarily live to a hundred it's just disproportionately
[02:17:18] a hundred it's just disproportionately having all these really long-lived
[02:17:20] having all these really long-lived people in the earliest registers of
[02:17:22] people in the earliest registers of their studs is the simplest explanation
[02:17:24] their studs is the simplest explanation for that is surely just as a product of
[02:17:27] for that is surely just as a product of description
[02:17:28] description um if yoinball is right about that so
[02:17:31] um if yoinball is right about that so this this that that point is that sub
[02:17:33] this this that that point is that sub Point within this broader set of points
[02:17:35] Point within this broader set of points is particularly dependent on the uh
[02:17:40] is particularly dependent on the uh uh scholarship stencil falls on his his
[02:17:43] uh scholarship stencil falls on his his research there
[02:17:45] research there so let's move on hit the end of the
[02:17:47] so let's move on hit the end of the second wave yeah we've hit the end of
[02:17:50] second wave yeah we've hit the end of the second wave of problem we've reached
[02:17:53] the second wave of problem we've reached the third wave and these are problems
[02:17:55] the third wave and these are problems that were mostly or largely uh
[02:17:58] that were mostly or largely uh articulated or at least uh um focused
[02:18:01] articulated or at least uh um focused upon in that from the 1970s onwards and
[02:18:04] upon in that from the 1970s onwards and these are the most Maybe
[02:18:06] these are the most Maybe those are the most important problems
[02:18:09] those are the most important problems the most substantial problems so number
[02:18:11] the most substantial problems so number 14
[02:18:13] 14 Hadith
[02:18:14] Hadith in many instances contradict
[02:18:17] in many instances contradict earlier sources so earlier non-muslim
[02:18:21] earlier sources so earlier non-muslim literary sources that on the basis of
[02:18:23] literary sources that on the basis of their content
[02:18:24] their content Scholars you know push back
[02:18:27] Scholars you know push back material in the
[02:18:29] material in the um 7th Century CE
[02:18:32] um 7th Century CE and also Islamic and pre-islamic
[02:18:36] and also Islamic and pre-islamic archaeological remains so a simple
[02:18:39] archaeological remains so a simple example would be Hadith depict Makkah as
[02:18:42] example would be Hadith depict Makkah as this completely Pagan idolatrous
[02:18:47] this completely Pagan idolatrous um
[02:18:47] um amply theistic environment but when we
[02:18:50] amply theistic environment but when we look at the archaeological record and
[02:18:52] look at the archaeological record and now I'm sort of drawing upon uh the the
[02:18:55] now I'm sort of drawing upon uh the the forthcoming researcher for example Ahmad
[02:18:57] forthcoming researcher for example Ahmad gilad what we actually find is that
[02:19:01] gilad what we actually find is that the adherent all of these idols and
[02:19:04] the adherent all of these idols and pagan gods
[02:19:06] pagan gods banishes in the centuries immediately
[02:19:09] banishes in the centuries immediately preceding the rise of Islam and instead
[02:19:11] preceding the rise of Islam and instead what we have is some kind of monotheism
[02:19:15] what we have is some kind of monotheism what is depicted in Hadith does not
[02:19:18] what is depicted in Hadith does not match the archaeological record
[02:19:20] match the archaeological record just straightforwardly but
[02:19:24] just straightforwardly but it is reconciled the Quran and here what
[02:19:26] it is reconciled the Quran and here what you know if you want to see more about
[02:19:27] you know if you want to see more about this uh Gerald Horton croner they sort
[02:19:31] this uh Gerald Horton croner they sort of you know elaborate on this point
[02:19:34] of you know elaborate on this point um also an interesting
[02:19:37] um also an interesting on uh Gabriel's side Reynolds YouTube
[02:19:41] on uh Gabriel's side Reynolds YouTube channel where he directly talks about
[02:19:43] channel where he directly talks about this as well the archaeological
[02:19:45] this as well the archaeological evidence and
[02:19:48] evidence and and what it shows so that's one example
[02:19:50] and what it shows so that's one example and there are other so for example
[02:19:52] and there are other so for example um uh uh in the earliest
[02:19:56] um uh uh in the earliest um Islamic or let's shall we say
[02:19:58] um Islamic or let's shall we say proto-islamic Declarations of faith in
[02:20:01] proto-islamic Declarations of faith in in the archaeological record up until
[02:20:02] in the archaeological record up until basically the the second fitna uh
[02:20:05] basically the the second fitna uh Muhammad is never mentioned and it seems
[02:20:08] Muhammad is never mentioned and it seems odd if Hadith are generally accurate and
[02:20:10] odd if Hadith are generally accurate and which would mean that early Muslims were
[02:20:13] which would mean that early Muslims were absolutely blessed with the prophet and
[02:20:14] absolutely blessed with the prophet and were scrupulously and systematically
[02:20:16] were scrupulously and systematically preserving everything he seems really
[02:20:18] preserving everything he seems really odd so they wouldn't mention the prophet
[02:20:21] odd so they wouldn't mention the prophet in all descriptions especially in these
[02:20:23] in all descriptions especially in these religious contexts so that's another
[02:20:26] religious contexts so that's another example where there's attention
[02:20:27] example where there's attention between the archaeological evidence and
[02:20:29] between the archaeological evidence and the Hadith material and there are others
[02:20:31] the Hadith material and there are others as well you know this is a uh um you
[02:20:34] as well you know this is a uh um you know there's a lot of Scholars who talk
[02:20:35] know there's a lot of Scholars who talk about this sort of disconnect
[02:20:38] about this sort of disconnect or contradictions between the early and
[02:20:41] or contradictions between the early and the later sources you know they're not
[02:20:42] the later sources you know they're not always contradictory there are you know
[02:20:43] always contradictory there are you know some basic points about early Islamic
[02:20:45] some basic points about early Islamic history are confirmed by early so I want
[02:20:48] history are confirmed by early so I want to acknowledge that but there are also
[02:20:50] to acknowledge that but there are also some notable contradictions
[02:20:53] some notable contradictions so we just gave some examples of them
[02:20:59] all right great
[02:21:01] all right great what number now all right
[02:21:06] all right number 15 and this is about
[02:21:12] all right number 15 and this is about our tradition
[02:21:13] our tradition the problem here is that early Islamic
[02:21:16] the problem here is that early Islamic reports you know and historical memory
[02:21:18] reports you know and historical memory so Hadith or what will become Hadith
[02:21:20] so Hadith or what will become Hadith are transmitted
[02:21:23] are transmitted orally paraphractically
[02:21:26] orally paraphractically and atomistically admits extremely
[02:21:29] and atomistically admits extremely chaotic and rapidly changing conditions
[02:21:32] chaotic and rapidly changing conditions the religious sectarian political social
[02:21:37] the religious sectarian political social economic and so on rapidly changing
[02:21:40] economic and so on rapidly changing conditions of early Islamic Society
[02:21:41] conditions of early Islamic Society including massive conquests Civil Wars
[02:21:45] including massive conquests Civil Wars mass migrations
[02:21:48] mass migrations for at least or around a century
[02:21:52] for at least or around a century and this
[02:21:55] and this drastically rape Billy that material
[02:21:57] drastically rape Billy that material would be
[02:21:59] would be distorted and falsely created even just
[02:22:02] distorted and falsely created even just by accident
[02:22:03] by accident so the point here
[02:22:05] so the point here the mechanism here is
[02:22:07] the mechanism here is people's needs and interests are rapidly
[02:22:10] people's needs and interests are rapidly changing right so new sector really
[02:22:14] changing right so new sector really forming dynasties are coming into being
[02:22:19] forming dynasties are coming into being um you know tribal conflicts and so on
[02:22:21] um you know tribal conflicts and so on and so forth so there's a very intense
[02:22:22] and so forth so there's a very intense regime of pressures
[02:22:24] regime of pressures to either fabricate or just to
[02:22:27] to either fabricate or just to reinterpret and re-remember to motivate
[02:22:30] reinterpret and re-remember to motivate you to re-remember I think a huge part
[02:22:33] you to re-remember I think a huge part of this is just motivated reasoning
[02:22:35] of this is just motivated reasoning right
[02:22:37] right and P people re-remembering things in
[02:22:39] and P people re-remembering things in sleep but in ways that are expedient or
[02:22:42] sleep but in ways that are expedient or useful and so on and so forth right
[02:22:46] useful and so on and so forth right um so but if everything is paraphractic
[02:22:49] um so but if everything is paraphractic like an oral then it's really it's just
[02:22:52] like an oral then it's really it's just the memory to just change for the story
[02:22:54] the memory to just change for the story to just change according to these
[02:22:57] to just change according to these changing needs that's the first point
[02:22:59] changing needs that's the first point and the second point is because the
[02:23:02] and the second point is because the society's change not just people aren't
[02:23:04] society's change not just people aren't just moving geographically from one
[02:23:05] just moving geographically from one location to another but even when people
[02:23:07] location to another but even when people stay for example in Makkah they're
[02:23:09] stay for example in Makkah they're staying in Medina those environments
[02:23:11] staying in Medina those environments radically change very quickly they
[02:23:13] radically change very quickly they acquire vast amounts of wealth they
[02:23:15] acquire vast amounts of wealth they acquire vast amounts of slaves they you
[02:23:18] acquire vast amounts of slaves they you know the whole you know culture shifts
[02:23:19] know the whole you know culture shifts because there's a new religion there's a
[02:23:21] because there's a new religion there's a new Empire people Ascend the class
[02:23:24] new Empire people Ascend the class hierarchy and go from being you know
[02:23:27] hierarchy and go from being you know whether to bedwinds in some cases or or
[02:23:29] whether to bedwinds in some cases or or others or you know farmers in other
[02:23:32] others or you know farmers in other cases to being essentially members of a
[02:23:34] cases to being essentially members of a new ruling class a new Elite layout
[02:23:36] new ruling class a new Elite layout right this is extremely radical
[02:23:38] right this is extremely radical transformation of the environment
[02:23:40] transformation of the environment which really badly affects people's
[02:23:43] which really badly affects people's memories memories and stories are really
[02:23:46] memories memories and stories are really sensitive to environment and when you
[02:23:48] sensitive to environment and when you change the environment memories will
[02:23:51] change the environment memories will change as well and stories will change
[02:23:52] change as well and stories will change as well Things become decontextualized
[02:23:55] as well Things become decontextualized and when you have short reports of
[02:23:57] and when you have short reports of Hadith are mostly very short it's really
[02:23:59] Hadith are mostly very short it's really easy for the whole meaning to change
[02:24:01] easy for the whole meaning to change with only pretty small alterations so
[02:24:04] with only pretty small alterations so there's a big problem here and by the
[02:24:06] there's a big problem here and by the way
[02:24:06] way this is a really well studied subject
[02:24:09] this is a really well studied subject right people will say our Traditions are
[02:24:12] right people will say our Traditions are really reliable this is generally not
[02:24:14] really reliable this is generally not true our Traditions are generally pretty
[02:24:16] true our Traditions are generally pretty unreliable and especially in conditions
[02:24:19] unreliable and especially in conditions like this they are incredibly unreliable
[02:24:21] like this they are incredibly unreliable right when you think of the examples of
[02:24:23] right when you think of the examples of really Reliable Auto Transmissions like
[02:24:24] really Reliable Auto Transmissions like look at modern Islamic oral tradition
[02:24:27] look at modern Islamic oral tradition people memorize the Quran perfectly
[02:24:28] people memorize the Quran perfectly people memorize all these hadiths this
[02:24:30] people memorize all these hadiths this is in the era of systematic scholarship
[02:24:32] is in the era of systematic scholarship and systematic writing right but it's a
[02:24:35] and systematic writing right but it's a different situation in rapidly changing
[02:24:38] different situation in rapidly changing systemic scholarship and without writing
[02:24:40] systemic scholarship and without writing another thing is just powerful being
[02:24:42] another thing is just powerful being paraphrased and transmitted you know
[02:24:44] paraphrased and transmitted you know optimistically and so on it's a totally
[02:24:46] optimistically and so on it's a totally different situation and what we would
[02:24:48] different situation and what we would expect to see is pretty radical shifts
[02:24:51] expect to see is pretty radical shifts in memory and mutations of reports and
[02:24:53] in memory and mutations of reports and stories and so on and so forth
[02:24:55] stories and so on and so forth just based on those conditions make
[02:24:57] just based on those conditions make sense
[02:24:59] sense yeah so I think now we're getting to the
[02:25:02] yeah so I think now we're getting to the really exciting reasons or the things
[02:25:04] really exciting reasons or the things that I I don't think are often talked
[02:25:06] that I I don't think are often talked about which is
[02:25:08] about which is the paraphrastic nature of these Hadith
[02:25:10] the paraphrastic nature of these Hadith reports
[02:25:11] reports and an atomistic so it's atomistic and
[02:25:15] and an atomistic so it's atomistic and paraphroastic and changing context so
[02:25:17] paraphroastic and changing context so you have these three things that will
[02:25:19] you have these three things that will result in drastic shift in the meanings
[02:25:22] result in drastic shift in the meanings and how they're deployed so each person
[02:25:24] and how they're deployed so each person that's narrating them is redeploying it
[02:25:27] that's narrating them is redeploying it for a specific purpose in a changed
[02:25:29] for a specific purpose in a changed context and because they are small
[02:25:31] context and because they are small reports they're already amenable to that
[02:25:34] reports they're already amenable to that they're smaller building blocks so you
[02:25:36] they're smaller building blocks so you can use them for different purposes and
[02:25:38] can use them for different purposes and interestingly enough exactly I think I
[02:25:41] interestingly enough exactly I think I think Sinai mentioned this for the Quran
[02:25:43] think Sinai mentioned this for the Quran as well as far as
[02:25:46] as well as far as how
[02:25:47] how when this hidden scripture model how the
[02:25:50] when this hidden scripture model how the quranic verses were initially used but
[02:25:53] quranic verses were initially used but this is a different topic altogether
[02:25:54] this is a different topic altogether it's different but
[02:25:56] it's different but um in any case I found this very
[02:25:57] um in any case I found this very interesting and the other the other
[02:25:59] interesting and the other the other second point is
[02:26:00] second point is that we've done studies on oral
[02:26:03] that we've done studies on oral societies now and
[02:26:06] societies now and memory how faulty people's memory is and
[02:26:10] memory how faulty people's memory is and um and so there's this idea that okay
[02:26:12] um and so there's this idea that okay like before you had self this is the
[02:26:14] like before you had self this is the thing that I'd always heard from
[02:26:15] thing that I'd always heard from traditionalists is that
[02:26:17] traditionalists is that before you had cell phones you had to
[02:26:19] before you had cell phones you had to memorize like 50 60 phone numbers and
[02:26:22] memorize like 50 60 phone numbers and now we're not able to do that anymore
[02:26:24] now we're not able to do that anymore because we're not used to it and so
[02:26:27] because we're not used to it and so people back then had super memories
[02:26:28] people back then had super memories because they had to but what now Studies
[02:26:31] because they had to but what now Studies have shown is that oral societies
[02:26:34] have shown is that oral societies they think that they have memorized it
[02:26:35] they think that they have memorized it exactly but really they have a different
[02:26:37] exactly but really they have a different even understanding of what that means so
[02:26:39] even understanding of what that means so yes we recite the same thing but it will
[02:26:42] yes we recite the same thing but it will come out slightly different but to them
[02:26:43] come out slightly different but to them that'll be the same thing because they
[02:26:45] that'll be the same thing because they don't have a control which is the
[02:26:47] don't have a control which is the written text that's why
[02:26:50] written text that's why it's very different now when people say
[02:26:52] it's very different now when people say well you can go anywhere across the
[02:26:54] well you can go anywhere across the globe and listen to someone recite the
[02:26:56] globe and listen to someone recite the Quran and it'll be the exact same that's
[02:26:58] Quran and it'll be the exact same that's because they have something that they're
[02:26:59] because they have something that they're continuously comparing it with so they
[02:27:01] continuously comparing it with so they have the control which is the written
[02:27:02] have the control which is the written text
[02:27:03] text um so it's a little bit different than
[02:27:06] um so it's a little bit different than if you didn't have a control written
[02:27:07] if you didn't have a control written text so I think our Common Sense
[02:27:09] text so I think our Common Sense intuition Bears out that once something
[02:27:13] intuition Bears out that once something gets into writing then it becomes more
[02:27:16] gets into writing then it becomes more and more precise and before that point
[02:27:18] and more precise and before that point in time uh you might think that you're
[02:27:21] in time uh you might think that you're reciting the same thing but there's a
[02:27:22] reciting the same thing but there's a lot more variability that's available to
[02:27:24] lot more variability that's available to and that's how they're able to propagate
[02:27:27] and that's how they're able to propagate this tradition because if you didn't
[02:27:29] this tradition because if you didn't have that inbuilt flexibility well you
[02:27:31] have that inbuilt flexibility well you you simply couldn't transmit such an
[02:27:33] you simply couldn't transmit such an oral tradition
[02:27:34] oral tradition because if you had such a high measure
[02:27:37] because if you had such a high measure of precision that was required you
[02:27:40] of precision that was required you simply wouldn't be able to do that
[02:27:41] simply wouldn't be able to do that without writing
[02:27:43] without writing did I understand that correctly you
[02:27:45] did I understand that correctly you think
[02:27:47] think so we can actually measure this very
[02:27:49] so we can actually measure this very precisely this is what I do in this
[02:27:51] precisely this is what I do in this analysis all the time we can measure the
[02:27:54] analysis all the time we can measure the rate of variation the hadiths the
[02:27:57] rate of variation the hadiths the transmission from the partial common
[02:27:58] transmission from the partial common links so sort of later common sources to
[02:28:01] links so sort of later common sources to the accent sources is is sort of much
[02:28:04] the accent sources is is sort of much sort of lower and then the transmission
[02:28:06] sort of lower and then the transmission from the common link to those you know
[02:28:08] from the common link to those you know let me do that in Reverse actually so
[02:28:10] let me do that in Reverse actually so the transmission from the common link to
[02:28:12] the transmission from the common link to the patch common links is significant at
[02:28:15] the patch common links is significant at the variation the level of variation and
[02:28:17] the variation the level of variation and the level of the transmission from the
[02:28:19] the level of the transmission from the from those partial common links to the
[02:28:20] from those partial common links to the extent sources is much lower like we can
[02:28:23] extent sources is much lower like we can sort of see the variation going down in
[02:28:25] sort of see the variation going down in real time and
[02:28:27] real time and uh in the further the greater and
[02:28:30] uh in the further the greater and greater
[02:28:31] greater is getting the more like you know even
[02:28:33] is getting the more like you know even like the gist is sort of being changed
[02:28:34] like the gist is sort of being changed you know elements are being added you
[02:28:37] you know elements are being added you know the the meaning is being changed
[02:28:39] know the the meaning is being changed and so on and so forth right and it's
[02:28:40] and so on and so forth right and it's sort of easy to demonstrate this using
[02:28:42] sort of easy to demonstrate this using istanical meta-analysis and this
[02:28:44] istanical meta-analysis and this correlates with the you know what we can
[02:28:46] correlates with the you know what we can reconstruct just using the Criterion of
[02:28:47] reconstruct just using the Criterion of dissimilarity for example the chronology
[02:28:49] dissimilarity for example the chronology of the rise of
[02:28:53] of the rise of writing eighth and this is you know uh
[02:28:57] writing eighth and this is you know uh Michael cook through
[02:29:00] Michael cook through uh is is a relevant Source there and so
[02:29:02] uh is is a relevant Source there and so is for example uh Gregor Schuler and
[02:29:05] is for example uh Gregor Schuler and both of them have a pretty similar
[02:29:06] both of them have a pretty similar chronology of in the first century
[02:29:07] chronology of in the first century people are almost never writing things
[02:29:09] people are almost never writing things down and then personal notes begin to
[02:29:12] down and then personal notes begin to arise over the course of the second
[02:29:13] arise over the course of the second century and by the time you hit
[02:29:14] century and by the time you hit basically the beginning of the third
[02:29:16] basically the beginning of the third Century the the transmission of Hadith
[02:29:18] Century the the transmission of Hadith in writing has become just completely
[02:29:20] in writing has become just completely normal
[02:29:21] normal um and this lines up with the rate of
[02:29:23] um and this lines up with the rate of variation that we can track using the
[02:29:24] variation that we can track using the it's not comata analysis the earlier you
[02:29:26] it's not comata analysis the earlier you go the greater the level of variation
[02:29:30] go the greater the level of variation um this is It's just straightforward
[02:29:32] um this is It's just straightforward it's like the thing you have the more
[02:29:33] it's like the thing you have the more reliable it is that's just you can just
[02:29:35] reliable it is that's just you can just see that concretely very very easily
[02:29:39] see that concretely very very easily also in general for the uh uh the sort
[02:29:41] also in general for the uh uh the sort of chaotic conditions of early Islamic
[02:29:43] of chaotic conditions of early Islamic Society uh krona uh slaves on horses
[02:29:47] Society uh krona uh slaves on horses chapter one is a really nice summary of
[02:29:49] chapter one is a really nice summary of those conditions and if you want a
[02:29:51] those conditions and if you want a compilation made to be accessible to a
[02:29:53] compilation made to be accessible to a general audience of the last century of
[02:29:57] general audience of the last century of scholarship on oral Traditions
[02:29:59] scholarship on oral Traditions storytelling uh memory a really
[02:30:03] storytelling uh memory a really excellent book in my opinion is Bob
[02:30:05] excellent book in my opinion is Bob ehrmann's book Jesus but the gospels
[02:30:07] ehrmann's book Jesus but the gospels um and also something that is also
[02:30:09] um and also something that is also discussed in there is how eyewitness
[02:30:12] discussed in there is how eyewitness memory is really unreliable and also
[02:30:15] memory is really unreliable and also communal memory is quite unreliable as
[02:30:18] communal memory is quite unreliable as well there's also this sort of idea that
[02:30:20] well there's also this sort of idea that oh but there's a whole group of people
[02:30:21] oh but there's a whole group of people together and so they'll this has been
[02:30:24] together and so they'll this has been shown to be wrong time after time
[02:30:26] shown to be wrong time after time communal memory is not reliable
[02:30:28] communal memory is not reliable inherently uh you know having a multiple
[02:30:31] inherently uh you know having a multiple people what actually will often happen
[02:30:33] people what actually will often happen is that in people's memories contaminate
[02:30:35] is that in people's memories contaminate each other so rather than preserving
[02:30:37] each other so rather than preserving everyone can just Converge on a false
[02:30:39] everyone can just Converge on a false memory
[02:30:40] memory um and they you know this is just
[02:30:42] um and they you know this is just disgusting as well so uh yeah this is uh
[02:30:46] disgusting as well so uh yeah this is uh uh problem number four
[02:30:50] uh problem number four in
[02:30:51] in all right let's move on to and and also
[02:30:54] all right let's move on to and and also I think Irma Bart ehrman's book and I've
[02:30:57] I think Irma Bart ehrman's book and I've also read shoemaker's book on this
[02:30:59] also read shoemaker's book on this um
[02:31:00] um they have they recollect some really
[02:31:03] they have they recollect some really kind of interesting laboratory
[02:31:05] kind of interesting laboratory experiments or experiments that have
[02:31:08] experiments or experiments that have been done on students and Etc on false
[02:31:10] been done on students and Etc on false memories and it's just fascinating stuff
[02:31:12] memories and it's just fascinating stuff but all right let's move on to the next
[02:31:14] but all right let's move on to the next uh reason
[02:31:16] uh reason and if you could give us the number okay
[02:31:18] and if you could give us the number okay as well now I'm probably number 16. yeah
[02:31:21] as well now I'm probably number 16. yeah and this is problem number 16 is Extreme
[02:31:25] and this is problem number 16 is Extreme variation an early rapid mutation and
[02:31:27] variation an early rapid mutation and Distortion so
[02:31:29] Distortion so problem number 15 which is what we just
[02:31:31] problem number 15 which is what we just discussed this is setting out the
[02:31:34] discussed this is setting out the conditions that we would expect
[02:31:37] conditions that we would expect to cause Distortion in Hadith
[02:31:40] to cause Distortion in Hadith but with problem number 16
[02:31:43] but with problem number 16 this is the actual direct evidence of
[02:31:46] this is the actual direct evidence of massive Distortion in Hadith so we have
[02:31:48] massive Distortion in Hadith so we have both the conditions that make it likely
[02:31:51] both the conditions that make it likely and then the actual direct evidence
[02:31:53] and then the actual direct evidence itself so I'm counting these as two
[02:31:54] itself so I'm counting these as two different points
[02:31:55] different points and so
[02:31:57] and so um
[02:31:58] um I mean
[02:31:59] I mean the basic Point here is just that there
[02:32:01] the basic Point here is just that there is a lot of evidence in the form of like
[02:32:03] is a lot of evidence in the form of like extreme variation across Hadith coppus
[02:32:06] extreme variation across Hadith coppus the sort of the way that you can find
[02:32:09] the sort of the way that you can find um you know same sort of material appear
[02:32:11] um you know same sort of material appear appearing in different iterations and
[02:32:14] appearing in different iterations and one version will open another which
[02:32:15] one version will open another which overlaps with another with circle of
[02:32:17] overlaps with another with circle of life with another at the end of the day
[02:32:18] life with another at the end of the day the basic gist is just you know differs
[02:32:21] the basic gist is just you know differs across the the different reports right
[02:32:24] across the the different reports right so in other words it's extreme variation
[02:32:27] so in other words it's extreme variation um the evidence of this is pretty
[02:32:29] um the evidence of this is pretty ubiquitous and so there's a like a
[02:32:31] ubiquitous and so there's a like a famous example of this you know Corona
[02:32:34] famous example of this you know Corona argues for the constitution of Medina so
[02:32:36] argues for the constitution of Medina so basically using that as a control we can
[02:32:38] basically using that as a control we can see how this paraphrastic drastic
[02:32:41] see how this paraphrastic drastic mutation took place and so this is
[02:32:44] mutation took place and so this is interesting because in addition to the
[02:32:46] interesting because in addition to the Quran the constitution of Medina is one
[02:32:48] Quran the constitution of Medina is one of the things that we think is very very
[02:32:50] of the things that we think is very very early exactly yeah okay let's uh move on
[02:32:52] early exactly yeah okay let's uh move on to the next point now
[02:32:56] the evidence for this is overwhelming
[02:32:58] the evidence for this is overwhelming there are other forms of evidence as
[02:33:00] there are other forms of evidence as well which is just finding extreme
[02:33:01] well which is just finding extreme variation like you'll find a report and
[02:33:04] variation like you'll find a report and then you'll find an overlapping report
[02:33:05] then you'll find an overlapping report and then you'll find an overlapping
[02:33:07] and then you'll find an overlapping report and by the time you've gone a
[02:33:08] report and by the time you've gone a couple of reports over
[02:33:10] couple of reports over it no longer has anything in common with
[02:33:12] it no longer has anything in common with the one that you started with right so
[02:33:14] the one that you started with right so you can actually see the extreme
[02:33:16] you can actually see the extreme variation
[02:33:18] variation and so and and this sort of pattern is
[02:33:21] and so and and this sort of pattern is pretty widespread in the historical
[02:33:23] pretty widespread in the historical material and I've sort of you know some
[02:33:26] material and I've sort of you know some much of my work is just sort of
[02:33:27] much of my work is just sort of collecting and documenting these kinds
[02:33:28] collecting and documenting these kinds of examples it actually what it's really
[02:33:31] of examples it actually what it's really like
[02:33:33] it really does look like it really is
[02:33:35] it really does look like it really is that extreme and people will sort of
[02:33:38] that extreme and people will sort of complain and say or people will often
[02:33:40] complain and say or people will often object to this and say the transmission
[02:33:42] object to this and say the transmission of Hadith was not like a game of
[02:33:44] of Hadith was not like a game of telephone right so sort of or you know
[02:33:47] telephone right so sort of or you know sort of um let's say like I don't know
[02:33:50] sort of um let's say like I don't know lay critics of Hadith will compare
[02:33:54] lay critics of Hadith will compare Hadith to again transportation and then
[02:33:57] Hadith to again transportation and then you know uh um more you know
[02:34:00] you know uh um more you know sophisticated you know traditional
[02:34:01] sophisticated you know traditional traditional Scholars will respond and
[02:34:03] traditional Scholars will respond and say this is ridiculous it's nothing like
[02:34:05] say this is ridiculous it's nothing like a game telephone but actually
[02:34:07] a game telephone but actually if you look really closely and you
[02:34:09] if you look really closely and you actually look you measure rates of
[02:34:11] actually look you measure rates of variation and you don't gerrymander the
[02:34:13] variation and you don't gerrymander the evidence and you actually find you know
[02:34:15] evidence and you actually find you know all of the available material on a given
[02:34:17] all of the available material on a given topic and you actually compare it
[02:34:19] topic and you actually compare it systematically you find that it actually
[02:34:21] systematically you find that it actually is at the level of a game of telephone
[02:34:23] is at the level of a game of telephone it is actually that extreme all right
[02:34:26] it is actually that extreme all right Point number team is that you frequently
[02:34:31] Point number team is that you frequently find that hadith's will comprise or
[02:34:35] find that hadith's will comprise or contain artificial
[02:34:37] contain artificial literary or narrative elements and
[02:34:40] literary or narrative elements and structures such as archetypes schema
[02:34:44] structures such as archetypes schema Mata
[02:34:45] Mata probes motifs and other kinds of topoi
[02:34:49] probes motifs and other kinds of topoi so these are things like um
[02:34:52] so these are things like um you know the age of 40 is the sort of
[02:34:56] you know the age of 40 is the sort of great Vena like stat the the ideal age
[02:34:59] great Vena like stat the the ideal age in
[02:35:00] in ancient literature for becoming
[02:35:03] ancient literature for becoming full adult and that's the age at which
[02:35:06] full adult and that's the age at which Muhammad is depicted as having his
[02:35:09] Muhammad is depicted as having his Revelation right which is extremely
[02:35:11] Revelation right which is extremely suspicious
[02:35:13] suspicious or other examples would be you know
[02:35:16] or other examples would be you know reaches the edge of the Holy Land he he
[02:35:18] reaches the edge of the Holy Land he he doesn't actually make it to the Holy
[02:35:20] doesn't actually make it to the Holy Land but he you know strikes or strikes
[02:35:23] Land but he you know strikes or strikes a rock and water flows forth Muhammad
[02:35:25] a rock and water flows forth Muhammad when he goes on a raid up to the north
[02:35:28] when he goes on a raid up to the north to the border of the Holy Land doesn't
[02:35:30] to the border of the Holy Land doesn't actually go to the Holy Land in the
[02:35:32] actually go to the Holy Land in the course of that story he also strikes a
[02:35:33] course of that story he also strikes a rock and water miraculously comes forth
[02:35:35] rock and water miraculously comes forth right so he's like a mosaic template
[02:35:38] right so he's like a mosaic template that seems to be operating in the
[02:35:40] that seems to be operating in the depictions of the Prophet or the fact
[02:35:42] depictions of the Prophet or the fact that all of these major events in the
[02:35:44] that all of these major events in the prophet's life keep happening on a
[02:35:46] prophet's life keep happening on a Monday you know and and
[02:35:49] Monday you know and and um or um
[02:35:51] um or um another example would be there are all
[02:35:53] another example would be there are all these stories where a pre-islamic
[02:35:55] these stories where a pre-islamic representative writes the prophet
[02:35:58] representative writes the prophet It's usually the same as a special bark
[02:36:01] It's usually the same as a special bark especially following him and all the
[02:36:03] especially following him and all the stories are different but these this
[02:36:05] stories are different but these this particular Dynamic this basic template
[02:36:07] particular Dynamic this basic template recurs in all these different forms for
[02:36:09] recurs in all these different forms for example or
[02:36:11] example or um you know there are other examples as
[02:36:14] um you know there are other examples as well I mean uh you know Christopher
[02:36:16] well I mean uh you know Christopher croner is is documents many examples
[02:36:18] croner is is documents many examples like this you know in Mecca trade
[02:36:22] like this you know in Mecca trade um uh this sort of extremely formulaican
[02:36:26] um uh this sort of extremely formulaican construction is also noted for example
[02:36:28] construction is also noted for example by Albert note in his study of battle
[02:36:32] by Albert note in his study of battle stories
[02:36:33] stories is also known this in the case of uh
[02:36:37] is also known this in the case of uh assassination stories how they're
[02:36:38] assassination stories how they're extremely formulaic they generally
[02:36:40] extremely formulaic they generally follow the same sorts of templates they
[02:36:41] follow the same sorts of templates they have similar kinds of you know sequences
[02:36:44] have similar kinds of you know sequences and statements and so on and so forth
[02:36:46] and statements and so on and so forth so this is really really unlikely
[02:36:49] so this is really really unlikely as genuine history it's really weird
[02:36:52] as genuine history it's really weird that all the same things would keep
[02:36:53] that all the same things would keep happening over and over this therefore
[02:36:56] happening over and over this therefore seeing this the same sorts of you know
[02:36:57] seeing this the same sorts of you know quotes over and over the same sort of
[02:36:59] quotes over and over the same sort of scenarios keep occurring this really
[02:37:01] scenarios keep occurring this really specific scenarios it's always like
[02:37:03] specific scenarios it's always like amazing coincidences but as a product of
[02:37:05] amazing coincidences but as a product of literary or narrative construction it
[02:37:08] literary or narrative construction it makes perfect sense right
[02:37:10] makes perfect sense right the SE
[02:37:12] the SE are much more likely just to be true
[02:37:15] are much more likely just to be true these are just Standard Building Blocks
[02:37:17] these are just Standard Building Blocks that are being used to construct history
[02:37:19] that are being used to construct history right so they're very unlikely to be
[02:37:22] right so they're very unlikely to be genuine history which means either that
[02:37:24] genuine history which means either that the historical reports are being
[02:37:25] the historical reports are being constructed
[02:37:26] constructed whole cloth out of these building blocks
[02:37:29] whole cloth out of these building blocks or that real history is being distorted
[02:37:33] or that real history is being distorted to
[02:37:34] to these archives and ideals and so on and
[02:37:37] these archives and ideals and so on and so forth does that make sense
[02:37:41] yes that makes perfect sense so that
[02:37:44] yes that makes perfect sense so that point is basically they have recurring
[02:37:46] point is basically they have recurring topoi as they say and this raises the
[02:37:50] topoi as they say and this raises the suspicion that they're literary fictions
[02:37:52] suspicion that they're literary fictions um okay let's move on to the next uh
[02:37:54] um okay let's move on to the next uh point exactly
[02:37:56] point exactly so when you add together
[02:37:59] so when you add together the oral transmission
[02:38:02] the oral transmission the higher rates of variation
[02:38:04] the higher rates of variation and the artificial composition all of
[02:38:07] and the artificial composition all of these points in One Direction where all
[02:38:10] these points in One Direction where all of this is extremely
[02:38:15] predictive of what all of this points to
[02:38:17] predictive of what all of this points to what what is the the best explanation
[02:38:20] what what is the the best explanation for this sort of thing what we find in
[02:38:22] for this sort of thing what we find in analogous situations in other oral
[02:38:23] analogous situations in other oral cultures
[02:38:24] cultures this sort of thing is typically the
[02:38:27] this sort of thing is typically the product of popular oral storytelling
[02:38:30] product of popular oral storytelling storytellers will you know create
[02:38:33] storytellers will you know create stories using a common stock of material
[02:38:36] stories using a common stock of material and they'll remix stories they'll create
[02:38:38] and they'll remix stories they'll create and remix stories according to the given
[02:38:40] and remix stories according to the given needs of a given audience and they have
[02:38:43] needs of a given audience and they have no commitment to like historical
[02:38:47] no commitment to like historical accuracy what they typically prioritize
[02:38:50] accuracy what they typically prioritize is you know inducing emotion in the
[02:38:53] is you know inducing emotion in the audience edifying the audience
[02:38:55] audience edifying the audience entertaining the audience or otherwise
[02:38:58] entertaining the audience or otherwise educating let's say morally the audience
[02:39:00] educating let's say morally the audience these are the priorities of the
[02:39:02] these are the priorities of the storytellers and uh Hadith exhibit
[02:39:06] storytellers and uh Hadith exhibit historical Hadith generally exhibit the
[02:39:08] historical Hadith generally exhibit the sort of the telltale signs of
[02:39:11] sort of the telltale signs of Storyteller Construction
[02:39:13] Storyteller Construction across the board this is like these are
[02:39:15] across the board this is like these are really common patterns in Hadith that we
[02:39:18] really common patterns in Hadith that we were just describing the variation and
[02:39:21] were just describing the variation and the the sort of the recurrence of tropes
[02:39:22] the the sort of the recurrence of tropes and things like which is evidence that
[02:39:25] and things like which is evidence that the material in general the historical
[02:39:27] the material in general the historical material in general largely derives from
[02:39:30] material in general largely derives from popular oral storytellers now I don't
[02:39:32] popular oral storytellers now I don't mean the poissons right later on the
[02:39:35] mean the poissons right later on the term pass becomes associated with
[02:39:38] term pass becomes associated with Storyteller but I'm not talking about
[02:39:40] Storyteller but I'm not talking about the passats and Armstrong argues anyway
[02:39:42] the passats and Armstrong argues anyway that in the early period a class did not
[02:39:45] that in the early period a class did not really mean a Storyteller just meant
[02:39:46] really mean a Storyteller just meant like a Pious teacher so I'm not I'm not
[02:39:49] like a Pious teacher so I'm not I'm not talking about the storytellers here you
[02:39:50] talking about the storytellers here you know whether or not the people
[02:39:52] know whether or not the people responsible were storytellers or whether
[02:39:54] responsible were storytellers or whether or not you know the closest whether or
[02:39:57] or not you know the closest whether or not it was other groups that makes no
[02:39:59] not it was other groups that makes no difference the point is
[02:40:00] difference the point is uh uh the historical material in general
[02:40:03] uh uh the historical material in general seems to derive from popular oral
[02:40:06] seems to derive from popular oral storytellers and storytellers just make
[02:40:09] storytellers and storytellers just make things up they have no commitment to the
[02:40:11] things up they have no commitment to the truth and this is a huge problem if
[02:40:13] truth and this is a huge problem if they're just willing to make pretty much
[02:40:14] they're just willing to make pretty much makeup and radically alter historical
[02:40:16] makeup and radically alter historical memory as it suits their needs does that
[02:40:19] memory as it suits their needs does that make sense
[02:40:22] yes that makes perfect sense
[02:40:25] yes that makes perfect sense um all right so now we have the
[02:40:27] um all right so now we have the storytelling issue we're raising yep the
[02:40:30] storytelling issue we're raising yep the critique all right what's the next
[02:40:32] critique all right what's the next critique
[02:40:34] critique so problem number 19. which you already
[02:40:37] so problem number 19. which you already touched upon
[02:40:39] touched upon is that
[02:40:40] is that usually
[02:40:42] usually exegesis of the Quran like these
[02:40:45] exegesis of the Quran like these exegetical reports about The the context
[02:40:49] exegetical reports about The the context of the Quran and even sometimes the
[02:40:51] of the Quran and even sometimes the meanings of words
[02:40:53] meanings of words are actually
[02:40:55] are actually exegesis in Disguise as in these claim
[02:40:58] exegesis in Disguise as in these claim to be historical reports from and about
[02:41:01] to be historical reports from and about what the you know the Quran
[02:41:03] what the you know the Quran I was saying and why it was revealed
[02:41:06] I was saying and why it was revealed but actually
[02:41:08] but actually this material was inferred
[02:41:12] and so the way
[02:41:16] and so the way it sort of establish this is pretty
[02:41:18] it sort of establish this is pretty straightforward so any given you know
[02:41:20] straightforward so any given you know verse or Surah in the Quran and you find
[02:41:23] verse or Surah in the Quran and you find all this variation it's really really
[02:41:25] all this variation it's really really common right it's typical that you find
[02:41:27] common right it's typical that you find all these contradictions but each
[02:41:30] all these contradictions but each contradictory report explains the verse
[02:41:34] contradictory report explains the verse by itself vaguely plausibly
[02:41:37] by itself vaguely plausibly the way to explain that is that the
[02:41:40] the way to explain that is that the material is being inferred from the
[02:41:42] material is being inferred from the Quran but different people are inferring
[02:41:45] Quran but different people are inferring elaborating and extrapolating in
[02:41:47] elaborating and extrapolating in different ways so you end up with all
[02:41:50] different ways so you end up with all this variation that each one by itself
[02:41:52] this variation that each one by itself would kind of explain the verse so a
[02:41:54] would kind of explain the verse so a simple example is
[02:41:57] simple example is um uh Surah 74 verses 49-51 talk about
[02:42:02] um uh Surah 74 verses 49-51 talk about how people are turning away from the
[02:42:05] how people are turning away from the reminder like frightened asses fleeing
[02:42:10] reminder like frightened asses fleeing from a password
[02:42:12] from a password so what does that mean what is it
[02:42:14] so what does that mean what is it well according to some reports it's a
[02:42:18] well according to some reports it's a lion or it's an Abyssinian lone worm oh
[02:42:21] lion or it's an Abyssinian lone worm oh sorry or specifically it's an Abyssinian
[02:42:25] sorry or specifically it's an Abyssinian me meaning party of men and not a lion
[02:42:30] me meaning party of men and not a lion alternatively it means hunters or it
[02:42:33] alternatively it means hunters or it means a party of hunters with bow and
[02:42:35] means a party of hunters with bow and arrow or it means archers or it means
[02:42:37] arrow or it means archers or it means arrows or it means human voices and by
[02:42:39] arrows or it means human voices and by the way most of these are attributed to
[02:42:41] the way most of these are attributed to IBN Abbas even Abbas is made to say like
[02:42:45] IBN Abbas even Abbas is made to say like a bunch of different conflicting
[02:42:46] a bunch of different conflicting opinions here
[02:42:48] opinions here um and others as well by the way so
[02:42:51] um and others as well by the way so what's going on why is there all this
[02:42:53] what's going on why is there all this variation each one by itself makes sense
[02:42:57] variation each one by itself makes sense in the context of the verse but they're
[02:42:59] in the context of the verse but they're all conflicting this simple explanation
[02:43:02] all conflicting this simple explanation is people the verse and
[02:43:05] is people the verse and they're coming up with an explanation
[02:43:06] they're coming up with an explanation that would seem to match the verse that
[02:43:08] that would seem to match the verse that sort of explains it is based on the
[02:43:10] sort of explains it is based on the context or what's being described but
[02:43:12] context or what's being described but different people come up with different
[02:43:14] different people come up with different explanations that's the contradictions
[02:43:16] explanations that's the contradictions and so exegesis is actually so these
[02:43:20] and so exegesis is actually so these reports about the Quran are actually
[02:43:22] reports about the Quran are actually just exegesis in Disguise being turned
[02:43:24] just exegesis in Disguise being turned into reports
[02:43:26] into reports and this is particularly clear when all
[02:43:28] and this is particularly clear when all of these conflicting explanations are
[02:43:31] of these conflicting explanations are put in narrative form well then people
[02:43:33] put in narrative form well then people are just creating narratives but in
[02:43:35] are just creating narratives but in Conflict but but most of them just have
[02:43:37] Conflict but but most of them just have to be wrong anyway because they're all
[02:43:38] to be wrong anyway because they're all conflicting they're all giving different
[02:43:39] conflicting they're all giving different context for the revelation of the verse
[02:43:41] context for the revelation of the verse and a different meaning for the
[02:43:42] and a different meaning for the revelation of the verse
[02:43:44] revelation of the verse so these people are you know not only
[02:43:47] so these people are you know not only creating you know coming up with uh the
[02:43:50] creating you know coming up with uh the meanings just based on the text itself
[02:43:51] meanings just based on the text itself and creating scenarios but then they're
[02:43:53] and creating scenarios but then they're putting it into narrative form which
[02:43:54] putting it into narrative form which again brings us back to the storytellers
[02:43:58] great all right let's uh we're at 20 now
[02:44:01] great all right let's uh we're at 20 now or what are we at
[02:44:03] or what are we at we are at number 20.
[02:44:05] we are at number 20. we're nearly there we're
[02:44:07] we're nearly there we're close
[02:44:09] close to the end
[02:44:12] this idea
[02:44:17] I should just quickly add this this idea
[02:44:19] I should just quickly add this this idea Jesus exegetical Hadith were inferred
[02:44:21] Jesus exegetical Hadith were inferred from
[02:44:22] from [Music]
[02:44:25] [Music] creative
[02:44:27] creative from the Quran
[02:44:29] from the Quran this is a really really widespread view
[02:44:32] this is a really really widespread view botsky gives examples of this goraka
[02:44:35] botsky gives examples of this goraka gives examples of this and there are
[02:44:37] gives examples of this and there are many others this is a really widespread
[02:44:38] many others this is a really widespread view I mean I mean you know you know
[02:44:40] view I mean I mean you know you know other examples of this sort of you know
[02:44:41] other examples of this sort of you know thing being documented Arthur Jeffrey
[02:44:44] thing being documented Arthur Jeffrey France Rosenthal
[02:44:46] France Rosenthal David Powers John Burton you know and
[02:44:49] David Powers John Burton you know and there are many others as well uh Gabriel
[02:44:51] there are many others as well uh Gabriel said Reynolds and so on and so forth so
[02:44:54] said Reynolds and so on and so forth so this is a really common phenomenon and
[02:44:56] this is a really common phenomenon and it's one that's widely recognized within
[02:44:58] it's one that's widely recognized within the scholarship I should also add by the
[02:45:01] the scholarship I should also add by the way that the problem of early wrapping
[02:45:02] way that the problem of early wrapping mutation this is also a really widely
[02:45:05] mutation this is also a really widely recognized problem you know this
[02:45:07] recognized problem you know this discussed by you know Kroner is
[02:45:09] discussed by you know Kroner is discussed by cook it's acknowledged by a
[02:45:13] discussed by cook it's acknowledged by a Gerald horting it's acknowledged by
[02:45:16] Gerald horting it's acknowledged by um actually quite a few Scholars who
[02:45:19] um actually quite a few Scholars who talk about this
[02:45:23] and just discuss this and recognize this
[02:45:27] and just discuss this and recognize this as a as sort of a big problem in the
[02:45:29] as a as sort of a big problem in the early material but open that okay so
[02:45:32] early material but open that okay so problem number 20.
[02:45:35] problem number 20. is there seems to be a recurring
[02:45:37] is there seems to be a recurring disconnect between Hadith and the Quran
[02:45:41] disconnect between Hadith and the Quran in terms of historical memory or to put
[02:45:44] in terms of historical memory or to put it bluntly the earliest layer of of
[02:45:48] it bluntly the earliest layer of of Islamic historical memory
[02:45:50] Islamic historical memory seems fundamentally and recurringly
[02:45:54] seems fundamentally and recurringly disconnected from the Quran
[02:45:56] disconnected from the Quran and so we can infer this just from the
[02:45:59] and so we can infer this just from the fact that
[02:46:01] fact that all this exegesis is being created or
[02:46:05] all this exegesis is being created or generated from the Quran itself
[02:46:07] generated from the Quran itself they wouldn't have to do this if there
[02:46:09] they wouldn't have to do this if there was a common memory about what the
[02:46:10] was a common memory about what the verses were about what the context was
[02:46:12] verses were about what the context was the very fact that this is happening so
[02:46:14] the very fact that this is happening so frequently just tells us that there's
[02:46:16] frequently just tells us that there's some sort of lack of memory right or
[02:46:18] some sort of lack of memory right or some sort of lack of
[02:46:20] some sort of lack of common memory about what the verses are
[02:46:24] common memory about what the verses are about
[02:46:26] and what the even some words mean oh
[02:46:29] and what the even some words mean oh James come back to historical critical
[02:46:31] James come back to historical critical scholarship looking at
[02:46:35] scholarship looking at now I'm going to come back to an example
[02:46:37] now I'm going to come back to an example of this there are times when we can
[02:46:40] of this there are times when we can independently know based on the close
[02:46:42] independently know based on the close match between the Quran and preceding
[02:46:45] match between the Quran and preceding texts and traditions we can know with
[02:46:47] texts and traditions we can know with confidence what the Quran was likely
[02:46:50] confidence what the Quran was likely talking about
[02:46:52] talking about and I'll give you an example so uh
[02:46:56] and I'll give you an example so uh a really nice example is uh Surah 112.
[02:47:00] a really nice example is uh Surah 112. this Surah is clearly a
[02:47:04] this Surah is clearly a remix and response to the Nicene Creed
[02:47:09] remix and response to the Nicene Creed that inverts and refutes the relevant
[02:47:13] that inverts and refutes the relevant propositions that it disagrees with
[02:47:15] propositions that it disagrees with whilst also alluding to the famous
[02:47:19] whilst also alluding to the famous Hebrew uh uh deuteronomic
[02:47:23] Hebrew uh uh deuteronomic Declaration of monotheism in its own
[02:47:26] Declaration of monotheism in its own line Clary monotheism and this is argued
[02:47:30] line Clary monotheism and this is argued I mean other Scholars have noted this as
[02:47:32] I mean other Scholars have noted this as well but
[02:47:32] well but most notably on Gaelic notes this right
[02:47:35] most notably on Gaelic notes this right so that this Surah is clearly a response
[02:47:39] so that this Surah is clearly a response to the Christian theology it's clearly a
[02:47:42] to the Christian theology it's clearly a very specific response a very clever and
[02:47:44] very specific response a very clever and well constructed response which are
[02:47:46] well constructed response which are alluding to the you know to the Old
[02:47:48] alluding to the you know to the Old Testament in the process you know it's
[02:47:50] Testament in the process you know it's the definitive quranic Declaration of
[02:47:52] the definitive quranic Declaration of monotheism responding to the definitive
[02:47:55] monotheism responding to the definitive Christian Declaration of monotheism and
[02:47:57] Christian Declaration of monotheism and in the process alluding to and citing
[02:48:00] in the process alluding to and citing against the Christian Declaration of
[02:48:01] against the Christian Declaration of theism the definitive Jewish Declaration
[02:48:04] theism the definitive Jewish Declaration of monotheism
[02:48:05] of monotheism clearly anti it's clearly critiquing the
[02:48:09] clearly anti it's clearly critiquing the Nicene it's focused on Christians
[02:48:11] Nicene it's focused on Christians Christianity right this is just
[02:48:13] Christianity right this is just absolutely straightforward you find line
[02:48:15] absolutely straightforward you find line by you know this sort of close
[02:48:17] by you know this sort of close correspondence between the material
[02:48:18] correspondence between the material again you can see Angelica noivert on
[02:48:20] again you can see Angelica noivert on this now but what do you find in the
[02:48:22] this now but what do you find in the exegetical material there isn't even a
[02:48:24] exegetical material there isn't even a hint of a memory of this that
[02:48:27] hint of a memory of this that overwhelmingly the uh context the the
[02:48:30] overwhelmingly the uh context the the the the trigger that's attributed to
[02:48:33] the the trigger that's attributed to this is
[02:48:34] this is Pagan beliefs
[02:48:36] Pagan beliefs and beliefs about sons of God
[02:48:39] and beliefs about sons of God and things like that it's only even one
[02:48:41] and things like that it's only even one that even mentions Christians and even
[02:48:43] that even mentions Christians and even them that just trusted in as a standard
[02:48:45] them that just trusted in as a standard sort of set piece to say the same things
[02:48:46] sort of set piece to say the same things that the Jews have made us and Hagans
[02:48:49] that the Jews have made us and Hagans are made to say in other contexts there
[02:48:50] are made to say in other contexts there is there's basically no memory at all of
[02:48:53] is there's basically no memory at all of this very specific sort of context what
[02:48:55] this very specific sort of context what the Quran is actually referring to well
[02:48:58] the Quran is actually referring to well the Quran is actually dialogue in any
[02:49:00] the Quran is actually dialogue in any case uh the the exodical material
[02:49:02] case uh the the exodical material actually loses the
[02:49:05] actually loses the sort of clever construction of the Quran
[02:49:08] sort of clever construction of the Quran right it's a very clever composition
[02:49:10] right it's a very clever composition here it's like you know it's like it's a
[02:49:12] here it's like you know it's like it's a remix of one text alluding to another
[02:49:13] remix of one text alluding to another text it's a very like this is a very
[02:49:15] text it's a very like this is a very well constructed
[02:49:16] well constructed it was like a very clever sort of uh you
[02:49:19] it was like a very clever sort of uh you know um
[02:49:20] know um uh uh you know composition that's going
[02:49:23] uh uh you know composition that's going on uh you just missed this if you go off
[02:49:25] on uh you just missed this if you go off the you know the exotical tradition the
[02:49:27] the you know the exotical tradition the extra tradition has no memory of this at
[02:49:29] extra tradition has no memory of this at all so this is just another example of
[02:49:30] all so this is just another example of that so okay that's problem number 20 is
[02:49:33] that so okay that's problem number 20 is the sort of
[02:49:36] the sort of new
[02:49:37] new Indonesia
[02:49:40] this is another by the way another
[02:49:42] this is another by the way another problem that is really widely
[02:49:44] problem that is really widely acknowledged in the scholarship a lot of
[02:49:46] acknowledged in the scholarship a lot of Scholars talk about this
[02:49:48] Scholars talk about this and also a sort of parallel legal
[02:49:52] and also a sort of parallel legal discontinuity as well like Arthur
[02:49:54] discontinuity as well like Arthur Jeffrey you know Patricia croner Michael
[02:49:56] Jeffrey you know Patricia croner Michael cook
[02:49:58] um Gerald horting then Chase Robinson uh
[02:50:02] um Gerald horting then Chase Robinson uh you know Christopher melchert
[02:50:04] you know Christopher melchert um uh Lawrence comrade there's a whole
[02:50:06] um uh Lawrence comrade there's a whole list of people Gabriel said Reynolds
[02:50:08] list of people Gabriel said Reynolds Nikolai cyan I acknowledged this uh you
[02:50:10] Nikolai cyan I acknowledged this uh you know there's there's a there's a whole
[02:50:12] know there's there's a there's a whole bunch of Scholars who acknowledge this
[02:50:14] bunch of Scholars who acknowledge this sort of recurring disconnect between the
[02:50:16] sort of recurring disconnect between the Hadith on the one hand and the Quran on
[02:50:18] Hadith on the one hand and the Quran on the other so
[02:50:20] the other so um
[02:50:21] um you know that's uh you know that's
[02:50:23] you know that's uh you know that's problem number 20.
[02:50:26] all right and let's move on to 21. the
[02:50:30] all right and let's move on to 21. the final one all right made it
[02:50:33] final one all right made it the final final problem is that there
[02:50:37] the final final problem is that there was no effective method
[02:50:40] was no effective method for distinguishing between
[02:50:43] for distinguishing between uh authentic and inauthentic Hadith the
[02:50:46] uh authentic and inauthentic Hadith the traditional methods of evaluating Hadith
[02:50:48] traditional methods of evaluating Hadith did not work and we can infer that they
[02:50:52] did not work and we can infer that they didn't work just from most of what we
[02:50:55] didn't work just from most of what we just covered right
[02:50:56] just covered right most of what we just covered will apply
[02:50:58] most of what we just covered will apply equally to sahih and Dave Hadith right
[02:51:02] equally to sahih and Dave Hadith right to the authentic and the weak equally
[02:51:04] to the authentic and the weak equally right
[02:51:07] right as I mentioned maybe
[02:51:09] as I mentioned maybe it's because
[02:51:10] it's because the the they
[02:51:14] the the they sorts of sort of picture was part of
[02:51:17] sorts of sort of picture was part of their murders way but
[02:51:19] their murders way but most to the other problems at least for
[02:51:21] most to the other problems at least for those later problems there's absolutely
[02:51:23] those later problems there's absolutely no difference when it comes to versus
[02:51:26] no difference when it comes to versus Hadith right so already we can just it
[02:51:29] Hadith right so already we can just it just follows from that that the method
[02:51:31] just follows from that that the method didn't work because it doesn't
[02:51:32] didn't work because it doesn't distinguish you know all this obviously
[02:51:34] distinguish you know all this obviously sort of false or problematic material
[02:51:37] sort of false or problematic material um
[02:51:38] um of distorted material for example
[02:51:40] of distorted material for example even putting that aside though if we
[02:51:42] even putting that aside though if we just look at the methodology of the
[02:51:45] just look at the methodology of the Hadith critics or the or and not just
[02:51:46] Hadith critics or the or and not just the Hadith critics proper the people who
[02:51:48] the Hadith critics proper the people who you know like El buhari and so on other
[02:51:49] you know like El buhari and so on other early methods as well none of them
[02:51:52] early methods as well none of them actually
[02:51:53] actually even just conceptually none of them
[02:51:55] even just conceptually none of them actually work to sort of
[02:51:58] actually work to sort of you know consistently distinguish
[02:51:59] you know consistently distinguish between authentic and I don't think
[02:52:00] between authentic and I don't think material so for example one approach was
[02:52:03] material so for example one approach was does the Hadith agree with my local
[02:52:05] does the Hadith agree with my local tradition or does it go against local
[02:52:07] tradition or does it go against local tradition this is totally ineffective
[02:52:09] tradition this is totally ineffective right a Hadith that conforms with your
[02:52:11] right a Hadith that conforms with your local tradition could be fabricated
[02:52:12] local tradition could be fabricated meanwhile that goes against your local
[02:52:14] meanwhile that goes against your local tradition could be genuine the local
[02:52:16] tradition could be genuine the local tradition could be wrong right so that's
[02:52:18] tradition could be wrong right so that's the first you know one
[02:52:20] the first you know one method totally
[02:52:24] another difference to those transmitted
[02:52:27] another difference to those transmitted by treatments who were known for their
[02:52:29] by treatments who were known for their piety or orthodox
[02:52:31] piety or orthodox y this was a you know another and
[02:52:34] y this was a you know another and totally ineffective people who are Pious
[02:52:36] totally ineffective people who are Pious and Orthodox lie all the time everyone
[02:52:39] and Orthodox lie all the time everyone knows this everyone knows this about
[02:52:40] knows this everyone knows this about every other sect everyone knows this
[02:52:42] every other sect everyone knows this about every other religion and even it's
[02:52:44] about every other religion and even it's you know it's em alleged internally
[02:52:46] you know it's em alleged internally right and we already saw this from for
[02:52:47] right and we already saw this from for example
[02:52:49] example when he was talking about
[02:52:52] when he was talking about uh the Sally hey the pious people
[02:52:54] uh the Sally hey the pious people presumably he means people who are in
[02:52:56] presumably he means people who are in his sort of fellow you know uh
[02:52:59] his sort of fellow you know uh proto-sunni sort of uh sir
[02:53:02] proto-sunni sort of uh sir um and well acknowledged people you know
[02:53:04] um and well acknowledged people you know we're fabricating Hadith for you know
[02:53:06] we're fabricating Hadith for you know Pious purposes and so on this is totally
[02:53:08] Pious purposes and so on this is totally acknowledged within the traditional
[02:53:10] acknowledged within the traditional literature so
[02:53:12] literature so this is completely you know uh
[02:53:15] this is completely you know uh ineffective also being Pious and being
[02:53:17] ineffective also being Pious and being Orthodox is actually totally irrelevant
[02:53:20] Orthodox is actually totally irrelevant to having a good memory or having good
[02:53:21] to having a good memory or having good retention for example so again you know
[02:53:23] retention for example so again you know restricting your your Transmissions to
[02:53:25] restricting your your Transmissions to people who are Pious and Orthodox
[02:53:26] people who are Pious and Orthodox completely an effective method another
[02:53:28] completely an effective method another early sort of approach was to restrict
[02:53:31] early sort of approach was to restrict Hadith to those with Orthodox content
[02:53:33] Hadith to those with Orthodox content which is slightly different than
[02:53:35] which is slightly different than restricting it to Orthodox sources again
[02:53:37] restricting it to Orthodox sources again totally ineffective prolodox Hadith
[02:53:40] totally ineffective prolodox Hadith could be fabricated and unorthodox
[02:53:43] could be fabricated and unorthodox cities could be genuine so this is not
[02:53:45] cities could be genuine so this is not at all you know just even conceptually
[02:53:47] at all you know just even conceptually there's no reason that would work
[02:53:49] there's no reason that would work uh another you know method was sort of
[02:53:52] uh another you know method was sort of relying upon all right there are various
[02:53:53] relying upon all right there are various reports that's depict how do you
[02:53:55] reports that's depict how do you Scholars using intuition to evaluate
[02:53:56] Scholars using intuition to evaluate Hadith again intuition is just allows
[02:53:59] Hadith again intuition is just allows for untrammeled whims biases invalid
[02:54:02] for untrammeled whims biases invalid inferences totally ineffective
[02:54:04] inferences totally ineffective um and then finally
[02:54:06] um and then finally the actual method that was mostly used
[02:54:08] the actual method that was mostly used by the proper Hadith critics by people
[02:54:12] by the proper Hadith critics by people like
[02:54:15] and so on this is relying upon
[02:54:18] and so on this is relying upon corroborating Transmissions to establish
[02:54:20] corroborating Transmissions to establish corroboratedness and Verity of trade-ins
[02:54:24] corroboratedness and Verity of trade-ins and I actually think this worked from
[02:54:27] and I actually think this worked from their time period onwards and already
[02:54:28] their time period onwards and already mentioned that you stopped seeing an act
[02:54:31] mentioned that you stopped seeing an act you know all these anachronistic Hadith
[02:54:32] you know all these anachronistic Hadith and so on from around 800 onwards when
[02:54:34] and so on from around 800 onwards when they sort of kick into action right and
[02:54:36] they sort of kick into action right and the famous example you know is
[02:54:39] the famous example you know is um there were no successful hadiths
[02:54:41] um there were no successful hadiths about the uh you know the Inquisition of
[02:54:45] about the uh you know the Inquisition of el magmoon there would have been a huge
[02:54:47] el magmoon there would have been a huge motive to fabricate those hadiths and
[02:54:48] motive to fabricate those hadiths and some Fabrications were attempted never
[02:54:50] some Fabrications were attempted never succeeded they weren't unaccepted and I
[02:54:53] succeeded they weren't unaccepted and I had youth critics are Opera so from
[02:54:55] had youth critics are Opera so from their time onwards it seems to work
[02:54:56] their time onwards it seems to work pretty well the problem is their ability
[02:54:59] pretty well the problem is their ability to apply their meth retroactively
[02:55:02] to apply their meth retroactively retrospectively back to earlier
[02:55:04] retrospectively back to earlier generations and the problem here is
[02:55:06] generations and the problem here is pretty simple
[02:55:08] pretty simple uh the Hadith critics only start to
[02:55:10] uh the Hadith critics only start to operate at the maybe at the end of the
[02:55:13] operate at the maybe at the end of the 9th century maybe as early as sure but
[02:55:15] 9th century maybe as early as sure but even that sort of iffy certainly from
[02:55:16] even that sort of iffy certainly from around 800 onwards right
[02:55:19] around 800 onwards right uh but that means that they're operating
[02:55:21] uh but that means that they're operating decades or even you know a century or
[02:55:24] decades or even you know a century or more before
[02:55:25] more before no sorry after these people that they
[02:55:28] no sorry after these people that they would be trying to evaluate
[02:55:30] would be trying to evaluate and so that's ample task corroboration
[02:55:33] and so that's ample task corroboration there were all of these driving the
[02:55:35] there were all of these driving the production of alternative or parallel
[02:55:37] production of alternative or parallel transmissions and it's nads and so on
[02:55:40] transmissions and it's nads and so on and so forth and so this was ample time
[02:55:42] and so forth and so this was ample time for false corroboration to arise and
[02:55:44] for false corroboration to arise and spread which means that their method
[02:55:46] spread which means that their method they would it would have been difficult
[02:55:47] they would it would have been difficult for them
[02:55:49] for them to adjudication and sorry genuine
[02:55:52] to adjudication and sorry genuine cooperation and false cooperation
[02:55:55] cooperation and false cooperation earlier on which would explain why they
[02:55:58] earlier on which would explain why they were not able to actually you know
[02:56:00] were not able to actually you know sort out you know the
[02:56:02] sort out you know the authentic from the unauthentic which
[02:56:04] authentic from the unauthentic which explains material we find all the
[02:56:07] explains material we find all the problems that were just outlined
[02:56:10] problems that were just outlined above and so secular Scholars pretty
[02:56:13] above and so secular Scholars pretty much universally almost practically
[02:56:15] much universally almost practically universally reject the judgments of
[02:56:19] universally reject the judgments of additional Scholars when it comes to
[02:56:21] additional Scholars when it comes to whether a Hadith is now there are some
[02:56:24] whether a Hadith is now there are some times when I think that they actually
[02:56:26] times when I think that they actually they make a good point or I agree with
[02:56:28] they make a good point or I agree with them but in general you know the you
[02:56:31] them but in general you know the you know secular critical scholarship I
[02:56:33] know secular critical scholarship I agree with the I share this perspective
[02:56:35] agree with the I share this perspective basically just
[02:56:37] basically just guard the Declaration that I had is
[02:56:41] guard the Declaration that I had is so when you sum up and because that was
[02:56:44] so when you sum up and because that was pretty long so can you sum up
[02:56:47] pretty long so can you sum up we're talking less than two minutes can
[02:56:49] we're talking less than two minutes can you sum up the last point
[02:56:52] you sum up the last point yep
[02:56:54] yep less than two minutes proper head yeah
[02:56:56] less than two minutes proper head yeah the proper Hadith critics people like El
[02:56:59] the proper Hadith critics people like El bukhare
[02:57:00] bukhare they relied upon corroboration I.E
[02:57:03] they relied upon corroboration I.E corroborating so try and determine that
[02:57:05] corroborating so try and determine that someone was reliable the problem is for
[02:57:08] someone was reliable the problem is for earlier people from before the Hadith
[02:57:10] earlier people from before the Hadith critics were operating
[02:57:11] critics were operating so back into the 8th century and 7th
[02:57:14] so back into the 8th century and 7th century
[02:57:15] century uh there's ample time for false
[02:57:18] uh there's ample time for false corroboration to arise there are all
[02:57:20] corroboration to arise there are all these pressures you know incentivizing
[02:57:22] these pressures you know incentivizing or producing parallel and alternative is
[02:57:26] or producing parallel and alternative is hadiths which means that all this false
[02:57:28] hadiths which means that all this false corroboration is just proliferating up
[02:57:31] corroboration is just proliferating up until the time of the Hadith critics so
[02:57:32] until the time of the Hadith critics so the metric that they were using someone
[02:57:35] the metric that they were using someone is normally corroborated when they
[02:57:36] is normally corroborated when they transmit something you can find a
[02:57:37] transmit something you can find a parallel version of the same Hadith
[02:57:38] parallel version of the same Hadith other people have it this is not going
[02:57:40] other people have it this is not going to work for the early period because of
[02:57:43] to work for the early period because of this confounding factor of the creation
[02:57:45] this confounding factor of the creation of false parallel Transmissions so the
[02:57:48] of false parallel Transmissions so the thing that they're relying upon to
[02:57:49] thing that they're relying upon to determine reliability is not actually
[02:57:52] determine reliability is not actually going to
[02:57:54] going to little principle
[02:57:56] little principle they have no response to they're gone
[02:57:59] they have no response to they're gone they're gone
[02:58:00] they're gone yeah that's so that's a great place to
[02:58:02] yeah that's so that's a great place to end this is that basically what you're
[02:58:05] end this is that basically what you're saying is that at some point in time
[02:58:09] saying is that at some point in time Hadith Sciences did get precise
[02:58:12] Hadith Sciences did get precise but the horse had already left the barn
[02:58:15] but the horse had already left the barn so it's the early period of
[02:58:17] so it's the early period of Hadith that's the problematic and that's
[02:58:20] Hadith that's the problematic and that's pretty much impossible to overcome at
[02:58:22] pretty much impossible to overcome at this point in time and that's the
[02:58:24] this point in time and that's the problem so the early period
[02:58:26] problem so the early period there was all this paraphrastic
[02:58:28] there was all this paraphrastic atomistic uh transmission along with you
[02:58:32] atomistic uh transmission along with you know drastic shifts in the meaning
[02:58:35] know drastic shifts in the meaning um you don't have that corroboration you
[02:58:37] um you don't have that corroboration you don't have the same standards
[02:58:39] don't have the same standards um in the early period you don't even
[02:58:40] um in the early period you don't even have isnods that are being called then
[02:58:43] have isnods that are being called then later on that you know those are back
[02:58:45] later on that you know those are back projected you have the raising issue
[02:58:47] projected you have the raising issue so I think we could sum up with the
[02:58:49] so I think we could sum up with the horse left the barn that's the problem
[02:58:50] horse left the barn that's the problem it seems to me
[02:58:53] it seems to me is also
[02:58:55] is also and then the proof is also in the
[02:58:56] and then the proof is also in the pudding
[02:58:57] pudding when you analyze the genre and you can
[02:59:00] when you analyze the genre and you can look at the sahih books as well
[02:59:03] look at the sahih books as well um it's you just compare it to the Quran
[02:59:06] um it's you just compare it to the Quran you'll see the historical anachronisms
[02:59:08] you'll see the historical anachronisms and all these issues so it's not just
[02:59:11] and all these issues so it's not just theoretical but we can see it in the
[02:59:13] theoretical but we can see it in the fruits as well that the product itself
[02:59:16] fruits as well that the product itself you know well this has been great uh we
[02:59:20] you know well this has been great uh we went way longer than expected but I
[02:59:22] went way longer than expected but I think this is something that will
[02:59:23] think this is something that will interest a lot of people so I really
[02:59:25] interest a lot of people so I really thank you for all your time we'll uh I I
[02:59:28] thank you for all your time we'll uh I I know people are dying to hear about your
[02:59:30] know people are dying to hear about your dissertation itself and that is what we
[02:59:32] dissertation itself and that is what we are going to talk about in part three
[02:59:35] are going to talk about in part three um but I think this gives a very good
[02:59:37] um but I think this gives a very good overview of Hadith studies in general so
[02:59:40] overview of Hadith studies in general so thank you so much anything uh any last
[02:59:42] thank you so much anything uh any last points you wanted to add one thing I
[02:59:44] points you wanted to add one thing I want to clarify is I think that um there
[02:59:48] want to clarify is I think that um there are ways to work with Hadith
[02:59:51] are ways to work with Hadith and you know there are ways to reach
[02:59:53] and you know there are ways to reach back to earlier versions of Hadith and
[02:59:55] back to earlier versions of Hadith and there are ways to recruit early common
[02:59:58] there are ways to recruit early common Doctrine you know that
[03:00:01] Doctrine you know that would go back complete autographed
[03:00:03] would go back complete autographed conquests actually
[03:00:06] um I think that Hadith are useless
[03:00:11] um I think that Hadith are useless shall we say but I do think and this now
[03:00:15] shall we say but I do think and this now to bring it all into basically one
[03:00:17] to bring it all into basically one single point
[03:00:21] any given Hadith just the consensus as
[03:00:23] any given Hadith just the consensus as far as I can tell this is the common
[03:00:25] far as I can tell this is the common view now among secular critical Scholars
[03:00:27] view now among secular critical Scholars any given Hadith should be presumed to
[03:00:31] any given Hadith should be presumed to be
[03:00:33] be unreliable or distorted or otherwise
[03:00:35] unreliable or distorted or otherwise suspect until the contrary can be
[03:00:39] suspect until the contrary can be demonstrated that
[03:00:41] demonstrated that basic skeptical principle is universal
[03:00:44] basic skeptical principle is universal is and this is the basic point so it's
[03:00:47] is and this is the basic point so it's not that we can't use Hadith it's not
[03:00:50] not that we can't use Hadith it's not that we can't reach back into earlier
[03:00:52] that we can't reach back into earlier Islamic history there are ways there are
[03:00:55] Islamic history there are ways there are some methods but
[03:00:56] some methods but in general skepticism a high degree of
[03:01:00] in general skepticism a high degree of skepticism is warranted with Hadith you
[03:01:04] skepticism is warranted with Hadith you know there are a lot of serious problems
[03:01:07] know there are a lot of serious problems and so to tag on to that
[03:01:10] and so to tag on to that what we could say is that the general
[03:01:13] what we could say is that the general consensus in Hadith studies
[03:01:15] consensus in Hadith studies unless you have you know Faith
[03:01:18] unless you have you know Faith commitments is that
[03:01:21] commitments is that there might be a kernel that goes back
[03:01:23] there might be a kernel that goes back to the prophet but it's almost
[03:01:24] to the prophet but it's almost impossible to identify that kernel that
[03:01:28] impossible to identify that kernel that seems to be an even matsuki was of the
[03:01:31] seems to be an even matsuki was of the Viewpoint that the Earl the problem is
[03:01:33] Viewpoint that the Earl the problem is in the early period
[03:01:34] in the early period um and that you can't necessarily take
[03:01:36] um and that you can't necessarily take it all the way back to the profit and
[03:01:38] it all the way back to the profit and that I think is misrepresented that
[03:01:40] that I think is misrepresented that ohmotsky just pushed back against all of
[03:01:42] ohmotsky just pushed back against all of this I wish we had had time to talk
[03:01:44] this I wish we had had time to talk about that maybe we can pick up part
[03:01:46] about that maybe we can pick up part three really quickly with talking about
[03:01:48] three really quickly with talking about that or maybe even we'll do that in part
[03:01:50] that or maybe even we'll do that in part four when we talk about the critics
[03:01:52] four when we talk about the critics because I think the critics will say the
[03:01:55] because I think the critics will say the traditionalist critics will say that
[03:01:57] traditionalist critics will say that matsuki beat all this back and you know
[03:01:59] matsuki beat all this back and you know we're back now to the near sure
[03:02:00] we're back now to the near sure traditional View
[03:02:03] traditional View um but yeah and I also want to reiterate
[03:02:05] um but yeah and I also want to reiterate the fact that
[03:02:07] the fact that um yes we're not saying that you can't
[03:02:09] um yes we're not saying that you can't use Hadith at all and I mean I quote
[03:02:12] use Hadith at all and I mean I quote Hadith from time to time in sermons and
[03:02:14] Hadith from time to time in sermons and that kind of thing and people might say
[03:02:15] that kind of thing and people might say that's inconsistent I don't think it is
[03:02:17] that's inconsistent I don't think it is I think Rahman had a very good solution
[03:02:21] I think Rahman had a very good solution to all of this
[03:02:23] to all of this um he basically said look the Hadith
[03:02:26] um he basically said look the Hadith tells us what some early Muslims what
[03:02:28] tells us what some early Muslims what their viewpoints were and that's
[03:02:30] their viewpoints were and that's valuable information for us and in some
[03:02:32] valuable information for us and in some way that can reflect the prophetic
[03:02:35] way that can reflect the prophetic Sunnah if we're talking about Sunnah in
[03:02:37] Sunnah if we're talking about Sunnah in that early way it was used as just
[03:02:40] that early way it was used as just general good practice and so from a
[03:02:42] general good practice and so from a religious perspective I don't think this
[03:02:44] religious perspective I don't think this is all devastating to our faith
[03:02:47] is all devastating to our faith um but in any case people are going to
[03:02:49] um but in any case people are going to take this in different directions I
[03:02:50] take this in different directions I think you have
[03:02:51] think you have different possibilities some Muslims
[03:02:53] different possibilities some Muslims will want to reject the historical
[03:02:54] will want to reject the historical critical method some will want to
[03:02:56] critical method some will want to problematize aspects of it I just don't
[03:02:58] problematize aspects of it I just don't think we should misrepresent the
[03:03:00] think we should misrepresent the consensus or the majority opinion in the
[03:03:02] consensus or the majority opinion in the field sure or the field itself
[03:03:05] field sure or the field itself um but you know that doesn't mean like
[03:03:07] um but you know that doesn't mean like you said you can't use Hadith so
[03:03:09] you said you can't use Hadith so um well this has been great Josh thank
[03:03:11] um well this has been great Josh thank you so much we will see you next time to
[03:03:14] you so much we will see you next time to discuss your dissertation itself so stay
[03:03:17] discuss your dissertation itself so stay tuned and I really want everyone to like
[03:03:20] tuned and I really want everyone to like And subscribe to the channel I really
[03:03:23] And subscribe to the channel I really need you to subscribe thank you so much
[03:03:24] need you to subscribe thank you so much and make sure to follow Dr little uh he
[03:03:27] and make sure to follow Dr little uh he has a Twitter can you tell him about
[03:03:29] has a Twitter can you tell him about your Twitter as well as your blog uh
[03:03:32] your Twitter as well as your blog uh website and we'll make sure to put it in
[03:03:33] website and we'll make sure to put it in the description as well and anything
[03:03:34] the description as well and anything else you might want them to follow sure
[03:03:37] else you might want them to follow sure if you want some so most of what I've
[03:03:40] if you want some so most of what I've said is actually based essentially on
[03:03:43] said is actually based essentially on chapter one of a book that I've written
[03:03:48] um things are there so not really
[03:03:50] um things are there so not really available but a lot of from what we're
[03:03:53] available but a lot of from what we're talking about you can find scattered
[03:03:54] talking about you can find scattered across my various threads which you can
[03:03:57] across my various threads which you can find pinned you know on the top page of
[03:03:58] find pinned you know on the top page of my Twitter Islamic Origins you know at
[03:04:01] my Twitter Islamic Origins you know at Twitter
[03:04:02] Twitter um or at Islamic Origins I should say uh
[03:04:05] um or at Islamic Origins I should say uh also on my blog Islamic or
[03:04:07] also on my blog Islamic or merchants.com a lot of this you know
[03:04:10] merchants.com a lot of this you know scattered throughout various blog
[03:04:12] scattered throughout various blog articles as well and also I also have a
[03:04:15] articles as well and also I also have a patreon where you and I also have like
[03:04:17] patreon where you and I also have like so for example I give sort of
[03:04:19] so for example I give sort of bibliographies and things like that
[03:04:21] bibliographies and things like that um and and diagrams and so on that sort
[03:04:23] um and and diagrams and so on that sort of address and cover some of what we've
[03:04:26] of address and cover some of what we've discussed with the patrons so you can
[03:04:27] discussed with the patrons so you can find me in those places and hopefully
[03:04:30] find me in those places and hopefully that's helpful so yeah
[03:04:32] that's helpful so yeah well thank you so much Dr little for
[03:04:34] well thank you so much Dr little for joining us and we'll see you again in
[03:04:36] joining us and we'll see you again in some time thank you so much