# No.1 Brain Scientist: Billionaire Brain, Anxiety & Addictions | Vidita Vaidya | FO518 Raj Shamani

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lacFcgcHx6I

[00:00] You've got an actual brain.
[00:02] Yes.
[00:03] That's what you imagine when you see a human brain.
[00:06] But this is a coat brain.
[00:08] Is my brain like this?
[00:09] Your brain is bigger than this.
[00:11] It's about 1 and 1/2 kilogram.
[00:13] If I gave you a rat brain.
[00:13] Okay.
[00:13] So now rat brain.
[00:16] That's a rat brain.
[00:18] What can this preserved brain tell you about a living brain which is inside?
[00:22] Okay.
[00:22] So you can cut this into sections.
[00:26] Yeah.
[00:26] Hold on.
[00:26] Oh, you just cut you just cut it.
[00:33] Vidita Veda, one of India's leading neuroscientists, has spent decades studying the most complex organ in the human body, the brain.
[00:39] If you've ever wondered why your mind works the way it does, then this conversation will completely change the way you understand yourself.
[00:46] If somebody is watching this and they want to find out that what kind of winner they can be,
[00:50] go for the most sustainable and the most sustainable is when you fall in love with doing something.
[00:56] that is the single most sustainable way of the long-term
[01:01] likelihood that you will achieve something.
[01:05] Can you tell me like a framework or a question or an exercise so that we can find out which process will work for us?
[01:11] I would first say find out what you thoroughly have enjoyed doing.
[01:13] Two, you find out whether you're willing to do the work.
[01:17] That's the sustainability.
[01:20] And three, I think you have to ask that if you didn't get the outcome that you wanted, would the process have given you enough joy?
[01:25] That's the hardest question to answer, but that's the question that's worth answering.
[01:32] Why are some people are so good with their memory and they remember everything versus some individuals are not?
[01:37] The brain is much more plastic and much more open to change in a younger nervous system.
[01:43] So your first 25 years of your life, that's a window in which there's much more plasticity than in the second 25 and the last 25.
[01:49] It's down in after that first 25.
[01:52] So when I say plasticity it means the ability of your brain to change in response to environment to be able to adapt better to the world.
[02:01] The word which is now I'm going to say is very loosely used these days.
[02:06] It's called anxiety.
[02:06] So explain me simply like what is anxiety?
[02:10] Anxiety is when there is no obvious threat.
[02:12] You can't see a threat.
[02:14] Nobody else can see a threat.
[02:14] But your body is responding like there is an immediate threat.
[02:18] Which means what?
[02:18] My palms will sweat.
[02:20] My mouth will dry.
[02:20] my heart rate goes up.
[02:23] It's literally as bad as a heart attack.
[02:26] If you open up, let's say, a billionaire's brain, Elon Musk, and you open up a brain of a 25year-old feeling stuck, will their brains be identical or different?
[02:54] experience.
[02:58] Enjoy the show.
[03:03] So, you've got an actual brain.
[03:05] Yes. These are your gloves.
[03:08] Okay.
[03:08] And that's my set. And we'll wear them because we have to wear them because these brains have paraphformaldahhide in them.
[03:16] And so, for safety reasons, we have to have our gloves on.
[03:19] What do they have again?
[03:22] Paraphoraldahhide. That's what keeps the uh the brain tissue fixed.
[03:26] Okay.
[03:27] Okay. So, shall we take this this particular brain out and take a look?
[03:31] So, if I touch it from my bare hands, what will happen?
[03:33] Uh probably not a great idea because you might have a situation in which you might get some rash.
[03:41] Okay?
[03:42] Because there's paraponaldahhide in it.
[03:44] But I can give you some now in your hand now. I can give you the brain.
[03:45] This is a goat brain. And it does in many ways resemble our brain as you can clearly see it has a lot of these folds right because most of this tissue is folded now.
[03:58] So that's the guy and sulkai of the brain. That's what you imagine when you see a human brain. But this is a goat
[04:06] brain.
[04:06] But is it like is my brain like this?
[04:09] Your brain is bigger than this.
[04:11] It's about 1 and 1/2 kilog.
[04:13] This is clearly not 1 and 1/2 kilogram.
[04:15] This must be about 200.
[04:15] But does it feel the same?
[04:17] It feels the same.
[04:20] If it is fixed, the human brain would feel the same if it was fixed.
[04:23] Okay?
[04:23] And so if you were looking at a fixed human brain, it would be larger.
[04:27] It would be about this much.
[04:29] Mhm.
[04:29] And this is much smaller.
[04:31] But many of the structures are shared between the goat brain and our brain.
[04:35] Tell me one major difference between our brain and goat brain.
[04:38] And one similarity.
[04:39] Okay.
[04:39] One big difference is if it was a human brain, the cortex, which is this part, would be much bigger.
[04:43] you wouldn't be able to see the cerebellum because the cortex would have expanded and flowed over the cerebellum tucking the cerebellum underneath.
[04:51] So this would not be visible in a human brain as easily because this has become so large in evolution.
[04:58] This has grown so big that it has flowed over it on either sides and this has got tucked in.
[05:05] Okay.
[05:05] Okay.
[05:05] The other big thing is you
[05:07] remember we stand on two feet, right?
[05:09] So we pedal.
[05:12] So this imagine if this was a goat this is its head and it has four legs.
[05:15] This has also moved like this.
[05:17] So you would see the human brain this would be tucked underneath.
[05:19] This would be much bigger and flowing on either side.
[05:23] The spinal cord going down like this rather than the spinal cord coming out.
[05:26] Oh.
[05:28] So this is like this is the beginnings of the spinal cord.
[05:29] From here would come out the long spinal cord with nerves coming out on either sides that control the limbs the rest of the body.
[05:38] That's one obvious difference.
[05:41] Obviously the size is a big obvious difference.
[05:42] But where does let's say do you the part which let's say in humans because we are more desirous.
[05:49] So where the desire and ambition and all of that plays out in the human brain versus an animal brain.
[05:54] So goats have the ambition of also finding effective grass to eat.
[05:57] Okay.
[06:00] We have that ambition and we don't consider it the kind of ambition that we think of.
[06:03] But if a goat doesn't have the motivation to find grass, to find food,
[06:08] to have drink enough water, it won't survive either.
[06:10] So the motivation circuits are actually fairly similar.
[06:14] The same things that make you want to go and eat are the same things that make you ambitious to want to land on the moon.
[06:21] It's the same underlying circuitry.
[06:23] It's just that it's doing very different things in humans from goats.
[06:26] Okay?
[06:26] But goats have motivation circuitry.
[06:28] Without motivation circuitry, the animal will not survive.
[06:32] And physically, where is it?
[06:33] If if you can point there's a structure called the ventral tegmental area, which will be right underneath this.
[06:37] So if you go underneath that, there's a structure there called the ventral tegmental area.
[06:42] And then there are nerves that go all the way underneath here is a region called the striatum.
[06:46] If I opened it up, you would see it.
[06:48] At the base of the stratum is a structure called the nucleus accumbance.
[06:54] That's where motivation resides.
[06:57] Can I just turn it around?
[06:58] Yeah.
[06:58] Yeah, turn it around.
[07:02] So, this is where
[07:04] And in humans also it's similar.
[07:06] It's very similar.
[07:08] That's there whether you are a rat,
[07:10] you're a mouse, you're a squirrel, you're a goat, you're a human.
[07:13] We all have that baseline circuitry in our brain.
[07:16] It's the same circuitry that makes you feel thirst and motivated to go drink water, eat food, have sex.
[07:23] These are all the same underlying building blocks under the brain.
[07:26] It's inside.
[07:26] It's embedded underneath here.
[07:30] And what is protecting like what's the outside?
[07:32] So this stuff right here in coming out of here would be your pituitary.
[07:36] What does the magic which makes all the hormones of your body?
[07:39] the testosterone, the estrogen, the thyroid hormone, all of those hormones that go everywhere in the rest of the body and do the job of, you know, hormonal control and metabolism come out from a little stock which has now gotten chopped off.
[07:53] But here's the hypothalamus and the pituitary would emerge from here.
[07:57] You can also see it in the you would see the same thing if I gave you a rat brain.
[08:03] Okay?
[08:03] So now a rat brain that's a rat brain.
[08:05] Now what is obvious to you first and foremost is this is smooth
[08:10] and this is curly and wrinkled and that is absolutely smooth.
[08:14] And why is like that?
[08:15] That's because the cortex is relatively less in size and in the skull it fits without having to fold fold.
[08:23] Whereas in the good brain the cortex is already expanded and for it to fit it has to fold.
[08:28] So if you take out this cortex and flatten it right like if you flatten it out it would be a one rupee coin.
[08:35] if you take this out and flatten it out, it'll be like a small puri.
[08:39] If you take out a monkey brain and you do the same thing and flatten it out, it'll be a large chapati.
[08:45] And if you take a human brain, human being brain and flatten it out, it'll be a pizza.
[08:49] It'll be that big.
[08:50] It's big.
[08:50] So now, but the skull hasn't commensurately expanded.
[08:53] We are not walking around with skulls that are this big, right?
[08:56] Like Megamind, we have small skulls.
[08:59] So now the stuff has to still fit.
[09:00] So to fit it has to fold and fold and fold.
[09:03] And that's why you have these folds which are called gy and sulkai.
[09:07] And here you don't need to fold a smooth
[09:10] brain. It's called a listen phallic brain which is a smooth brain.
[09:14] But here's a question. So these brains are preserved brains.
[09:18] Yes.
[09:18] Right.
[09:18] Yes.
[09:19] What's the difference between a live brain which is probably right now in my head or in some living animal versus a dead brain and versus a preserved brain?
[09:28] Yeah. So a a dead brain suppose we just took the brain out of the body then there would be a lot more blood that would be immediately visible.
[09:37] The brain receives a large amount of your blood supply supply. So you would see blood which you don't see here at all because the blood has been removed and cleared out.
[09:44] Okay. Also it's significantly softer because when the tissue dies the cells start dying and as they die they literally dissolve away.
[09:53] There are all these enzymes that are chewing up stuff. It will fall apart.
[09:55] If I give you a live brain in a few minutes, it'll start falling apart.
[10:00] Okay, here this is preserved because it's had formalin or you a lot of people would have seen this in school when you go into the laboratories and you see things in these long long long long jars and
[10:11] you see one snake or you see some body part.
[10:13] It's been preserved.
[10:15] It's been preserved by using formulin or formaldahhide which preserves the brain and now this will stay like this for actually years.
[10:22] Interesting. But does it change anything in while you're researching or doing anything?
[10:27] It does change things which we can't easily test in this. So for example, if I want to look at RNA or DNA or look at the genes that are being switched on, I can't do it in a preserved brain. I have to do it in a live brain.
[10:39] And does it shrink in size?
[10:40] It does shrink a little bit because this sort of formulins, you know, once you cross link proteins, things become tighter.
[10:47] And because they become tighter, things become more tightly connected. It does shrink it a little bit. So it is a little bit smaller but not a lot.
[10:54] And now that this is preserved with all these things, what can this preserved brain tell you about a living brain which is inside my mind?
[11:02] So you can cut this into sections.
[11:05] So let's put this fellow back right here and let's take that and let me show you its younger or rather other evolutionary
[11:13] relative. That's the mouse.
[11:16] So you get a sense of how the mouse play.
[11:17] Wait, mouse and rat are different.
[11:19] They're two different things.
[11:20] Cuz I know we all say chua and we think that the chua is just a cha.
[11:23] Is it a genuine thing or am I like really dumb?
[11:26] You would not be the first person who's asked this question.
[11:30] So people are like rat and mouse. Isn't that just the same thing?
[11:32] You've seen a big rat, right?
[11:34] And you also seen these little but they're not baby rats.
[11:35] They're actually mice which is a totally different species.
[11:39] So that is a mouse brain and that is a rat brain.
[11:41] And so the mouse is significantly smaller.
[11:43] It's like about 25 g an adult mouse and a rat, adult rat would be about 250 g.
[11:51] Significantly bigger. Right.
[11:53] The one you see on train stations and that's the one you see on train stations is this.
[11:56] The one that's probably wandering around in your in your house in the corner which is eating up the food is more likely to be a house mouse.
[12:04] Okay.
[12:05] Yeah. But that's you can see that it's very similar.
[12:08] Even though these animals have very different sizes, they have very similar lifestyles.
[12:13] They're also, you know,
[12:15] nocturnal.
[12:15] They like to spend, they come out at night.
[12:17] A lot of their there's a lot of biology that's very similar even though they are different species.
[12:22] And you can study a lot by studying these animals because the rules are common many times across this, this, and what's here.
[12:31] What are common rules?
[12:32] The neurons that do all the processing in the brain, they're similar here, here, and in our nervous system.
[12:38] The way they're connected and the way they areworked is different.
[12:39] But a lot of the basic building blocks are very similar.
[12:43] It's like with a Lego box, you can make a simple thing.
[12:45] You can make a complicated thing.
[12:47] You can also make something that's very very.
[12:50] So the building blocks tend to be very very similar.
[12:52] But as the complexity goes up, you get different function which emerges from these networks.
[12:59] But you so you were telling me this that when you study these brains, what do you find out about human brains?
[13:05] Yeah.
[13:05] So let's take a look at the microscope and then you'll see what is actually inside the brain and you'll realize that the rules are really really quite so.
[13:14] So so let's say I want to see how neurons
[13:16] function.
[13:18] Okay, we can move this microscope to us.
[13:20] So let's take our gloves off.
[13:20] Oh, maybe we can just finish this.
[13:21] Is it's done?
[13:21] Oh, you were going to cut.
[13:23] I wanted to cut.
[13:25] So let me cut then maybe and show you that and then
[13:27] and then we can go to Okay.
[13:30] So I'm going to section
[13:31] actually cut it.
[13:32] Yeah.
[13:36] I'm going to take a brain here and put it into what is called a mold.
[13:38] Okay.
[13:38] So, this is a mold.
[13:40] So, I'm just slicing the brain.
[13:42] Now, I'm just going to put it in a mold like this.
[13:43] Fit it.
[13:43] Okay.
[13:45] So, this mold is for this mouse bra.
[13:45] This mold is for a rat brain.
[13:47] I have a mold mold for a mouse brain, which is right here, which is a smaller mold.
[13:50] Okay.
[13:51] Right.
[13:51] But we'll use the rat brain mold.
[13:53] And I'm going to cut right here.
[14:00] Okay.
[14:00] That's what
[14:01] how difficult it is or easy it is for you to cut.
[14:04] This is easy.
[14:06] When we want to cut really thin, you need machines.
[14:09] So we cut down to like fractions of a millimeter.
[14:13] And when we do that, then you need machines to cut at really thin
[14:17] levels, right?
[14:18] So right now here I'm just slicing it with this is like a regular razor blade, right?
[14:22] So that's all it is.
[14:22] So I'm just size slicing.
[14:24] I'll slice.
[14:33] Yeah, this is proving to be tricky because his blade is not as strong as the other one.
[14:39] Okay.
[14:39] Okay, let me just cut with this instead.
[14:49] All right.
[14:49] Yeah, let's just put that.
[14:53] All right, let's take a look now.
[14:55] And what's this?
[14:56] All right.
[14:56] So now you asked me about the motivational circuitry in the brain right at the base of this sitting right here.
[15:04] I don't know if you can see it with this.
[15:06] We can try.
[15:06] But sitting at the base of this this structure right here is something called the nucleus encumbent.
[15:12] Doesn't matter what the name is.
[15:14] We all have this tendency to make very complicated names for everything in
[15:18] The brain.
[15:18] Unnecessarily complicated.
[15:20] We could have made it a lot simpler.
[15:22] But you know there were so many different structures they got called many things.
[15:25] There's a little region right here at the base which is the region that has produces and receives a lot of dopamine.
[15:32] Okay.
[15:32] And that's the part of your brain that's involved with motivation.
[15:34] So it's right here at the base.
[15:36] And so show show me like just point it out.
[15:40] Where would it be?
[15:41] That I will have to cut this fellow.
[15:43] If we want to see it.
[15:45] Because on the bigger brain I'll be able to.
[15:47] Yeah.
[15:47] Hold on.
[15:47] Oh, you just cut.
[15:47] Oh, you just cut it.
[15:51] Hold on.
[15:53] All right.
[16:03] It's I don't know how you're doing it.
[16:05] So yeah.
[16:12] So this here is this this the base of this is actually the basil ganglia.
[16:17] This whole region is
[16:22] This base region is the same region that I'm showing you here.
[16:25] These are all the fibers that are coming that are collecting information from all over the cortex.
[16:31] This region is the cortex.
[16:31] Okay?
[16:32] This white structure that is running down here.
[16:34] Can you see this white line?
[16:36] Yeah.
[16:36] That's called the internal capsule and it carries fibers from the brain all the way down to your spinal cord.
[16:43] So this single neuron that projects from here could sometimes in the case of a human being be 1 m long.
[16:47] It's one cell but its projections could be right from here all the way to your spinal cord.
[16:52] It controls your ability to sit, walk, move, etc.
[16:57] Right.
[16:57] So this this region is that area.
[17:01] You can actually see it here as well there.
[17:05] Right there at the base.
[17:06] This white thing.
[17:07] Yeah.
[17:07] And the white thing running through it is the internal capsule.
[17:10] This is the base.
[17:11] So this is responsible for motivation.
[17:12] Motivation.
[17:12] This receives innovation from the base of the brain which is this area which I can show.
[17:17] So what is different in people who are not
[17:21] motivated versus people who are?
[17:23] So pretty much everyone is motivated for at least baseline level rewards otherwise you won't survive.
[17:29] But does the brain like look different of high achievers versus drastically so not drastically so but possibly in the neurochemical transmission?
[17:38] Yes. Because in the detail of what gives you your dopamine hit possibly.
[17:43] I mean the dopamine hit that someone who's willing to go and do the work to climb to the top of Mount Everest will likely be very different from the dopamine hit of someone who's saying I'm a couch potato and I will eat the potato chips while watching someone climb Mount Everest.
[17:56] It's likely to be different but not in the it'll be in the minor detail not in the large scale.
[18:00] So in principle that couch potato is also capable of absolutely getting up doing the work and achieving that.
[18:08] So inherently the the building blocks are there in every individual.
[18:12] Got it. So it's mostly the neurotransmitters which actually makes difference.
[18:15] Neurotransmitters the strength of signal between one neuron and another. The receptors that respond to the
[18:21] neurotransmitters that level of detail.
[18:23] changes based on what you do.
[18:26] So for example let's say someone actually trains to go to base scan.
[18:27] They are training and really training every single day.
[18:31] That training does something to your brain.
[18:34] True.
[18:35] Right.
[18:37] Is a difference between in principle seeing it and in practice doing it.
[18:39] Yeah.
[18:41] It's like saying I want to be a concert pianist but I will listen to a concert pianist.
[18:43] They're not enough to become a concert pianist.
[18:47] Yeah,
[18:47] it's a good example.
[18:49] I'll come back to that.
[18:51] Okay.
[18:51] Because the pianist I have something nuance for it.
[18:54] But so you're selling that brain of a couch potato of somebody who's not an achiever is exactly same more or less is same like an high achiever.
[19:03] and it's broad structure 101% and it's but is it like heavier because I heard that Einstein's brain weighs more than like a normal human being.
[19:11] So Einstein's brain is thought to have had more guy and sulkai.
[19:13] So more folds.
[19:16] Now in its detail no one sits and counts every neuron in the brain.
[19:18] Right?
[19:20] We know that we have some x number of
[19:22] neurons some close to like close to just about you know in the billion range neurons.
[19:28] But the thing is that you're not going to sit and count every neuron and see whether one individual's brain versus another differs in the numbers.
[19:35] Numbers can differ though because we know that even in rats and mice when you put them through life experiences especially animals that have a lot of not challenge but stimulating environments tend to end up with more neurons in their brain.
[19:48] So we do know that that stimulation and the quality of environment can change the number of neurons in the brain.
[19:55] So there is that possibility.
[19:57] So the theories and like what people say that because Einstein brain was heavier, it has nothing to do with his intelligence a little unlikely to have been just that that it's probably what he did with that brain and how he trained it and how he used it that made all the differences.
[20:14] Not to say that there aren't inherent differences in ability.
[20:16] There are always some inherent differences in ability, but a lot of it is what you do with those inherent differences and that is
[20:23] training. There's no question about it.
[20:25] You can train the brain to do a whole
[20:27] bunch of things that you didn't
[20:28] anticipate that you could do.
[20:30] >> And is bigger brain better?
[20:32] >> Not necessarily because I mean you can
[20:34] have a camel brain. It's pretty huge. So
[20:36] now I mean for a camel it works
[20:38] beautifully. But if you and I so just
[20:41] bigger doesn't necessarily mean better,
[20:43] right? Like you can have a bigger brain.
[20:44] So a goat has a significantly bigger
[20:46] brain than a rat, but it can't do some
[20:48] of the things that a rat can do. And a
[20:50] rat cannot do some things that a goat
[20:51] can do. So these brains have been
[20:54] evolutionally adapted to be ideally
[20:56] suited for that particular species.
[20:59] >> Got it?
[20:59] >> For a rat, it has this huge alactory
[21:02] bul. Can you see that at the front?
[21:04] >> This structure,
[21:05] >> this is what is involved in its sense of
[21:07] smell.
[21:09] >> And now you know that rats are super
[21:11] smellers and mice are super smellers.
[21:13] They can smell stuff that you and I can
[21:15] never smell. We will not even be able to
[21:16] detect the odor.
[21:18] >> So will dogs have the similar thing?
[21:19] Will they have bigger?
[21:20] >> Absolutely. So their alfactory system is
[21:22] way more complicated than ours. So if I
[21:25] was to say that we'll give an award for
[21:27] the best smeller, hands down the rat
[21:29] will win over you and me. Right? So
[21:32] essentially depending on the function we
[21:33] are looking at species evolve to make
[21:36] the function most suitable for it. So
[21:38] dogs especially blood hounds etc that do
[21:41] a great job of smelling things they have
[21:43] complex alactory systems. Ours has
[21:45] become rudimentary
[21:47] >> and that's because we went bipedal. So
[21:49] our dependence on smell is less. Our
[21:52] dependence on vision is a lot more.
[21:55] >> We use sight to do a lot of our
[21:57] discrimination of the universe.
[21:59] >> Interesting. And I I have a very good
[22:02] smell. That's what I would like to
[22:03] think.
[22:05] >> Yeah. But hands down between you and a
[22:07] rat, a rat hands down smell better than
[22:10] you.
[22:10] >> I am only comparing with my 10 humans.
[22:14] >> Sure.
[22:15] >> No. Fair. Okay. So you and Okay. There's
[22:18] this one word which I've heard a lot.
[22:21] >> Mhm.
[22:21] >> Okay. Which is called gray matter.
[22:22] >> Yeah.
[22:23] >> What is gray matter in this?
[22:24] >> Okay. This was great that you just asked
[22:26] me that is exactly this is gray matter
[22:29] and this is white matter.
[22:31] >> What do they do?
[22:31] >> First of all, it's obvious that they
[22:33] look different in gray and white. I mean
[22:35] it's kind of pinkish because it has a
[22:37] little bit of fixed blood left in it.
[22:39] But this is gray matter and this is
[22:40] white. Gray matter is where your cells
[22:42] are.
[22:43] >> Your neurons, your ga, all the different
[22:45] kinds of cells that are there in the
[22:46] brain. White matter is all the fibers
[22:49] coming out of them and going long
[22:51] distances. So for example, if there are
[22:53] neurons here and there are neurons here,
[22:55] you're collecting all of their fibers
[22:58] forming this big bundle and then this
[23:00] big bundle is going and that's the white
[23:02] matter. Most dramatically you see it in
[23:04] the spinal cord which looks almost all
[23:07] white
[23:08] >> because it has collected all these
[23:10] fibers from the brain and it's now going
[23:12] to carry all that signal down to your
[23:14] spinal cord. That's what's going to
[23:15] allow you to move your hands. That's
[23:17] going to allow you to dance. It's going
[23:19] to allow you to, you know, play
[23:20] football. All of that is information
[23:23] coming from your brain through those
[23:24] white matter white matter tracts all the
[23:27] way to your spinal cord and then going
[23:29] out through nerves to your peripheral.
[23:31] >> So this white thing, white matter,
[23:33] >> Yeah.
[23:33] >> is my let's say signal carrier.
[23:36] >> It's your signal carrier.
[23:37] >> Okay.
[23:37] >> Exactly.
[23:38] >> And what is my gray matter?
[23:39] >> Your gray matter is the the thing that
[23:41] produces the signal. It's the cell that
[23:42] makes the signal. that signal has to it
[23:45] is useless if it stays in the brain and
[23:47] doesn't go anywhere.
[23:48] >> So when they say that because we you
[23:52] know we addicted to a screens and we
[23:54] keep watching endlessly. So there's a
[23:57] fog in the brain and that affects gray
[24:00] matter.
[24:01] >> So what do they mean by that? Like does
[24:02] it do you can you see like the white
[24:04] kind of thing or any fog around it when
[24:06] you have
[24:07] >> No, you can't you can't see anything
[24:09] changing just from chronic screen use.
[24:11] >> Okay. So what is brain fog? Where does
[24:13] it like does it change anything? Does it
[24:14] look like
[24:14] >> No, it doesn't. Brain fog essentially is
[24:17] referring to your inability to have
[24:19] clear thought,
[24:21] clear categorical thought where you are
[24:23] just, you know, all kinds of random
[24:25] thoughts are just emerging at random and
[24:28] that, you know, you're not really able
[24:29] to clearly articulate whatever it is
[24:32] that you're thinking about.
[24:33] >> So that's brain fog. Brain fog can also
[24:36] happen when you come out of anesthesia.
[24:37] M
[24:38] >> so you know when you're coming out of
[24:38] anesthesia it's taking a while for you
[24:41] to first of all be aware that you're
[24:42] awake then you you're mumbling something
[24:45] in the morning when you wake up and you
[24:47] haven't had a good night's sleep for a
[24:49] little while it's almost as though the
[24:50] system isn't kicking you know you know
[24:52] the old TVs used to have this flicker
[24:54] like pattern on the it's almost like
[24:56] your brain is coming back on fully so
[24:59] it's that it's and if you're
[25:00] continuously mindlessly consuming stuff
[25:04] >> and now you expect your brain to produce
[25:06] the most coherent thought it's not going
[25:08] to do that until you kick in and have
[25:10] your full attention on board. So in a
[25:12] sense it's that it's like that flicker
[25:14] that happens when things are not yet
[25:16] fully on.
[25:18] >> Got it. So it doesn't affect the gray
[25:19] matter.
[25:20] >> No, it doesn't.
[25:20] >> But then if you let's say because
[25:23] >> I mean it doesn't and maybe I should
[25:25] should say one more thing like when we
[25:27] say in rats and mice that an enriched
[25:30] environment makes for more neurons in
[25:32] the brain. Watching mindless television
[25:35] is not an enriched environment by any
[25:37] stretch of imagination, right? So what
[25:39] you do consume has an impact on your
[25:41] brain for sure. So if you're reading
[25:43] something interesting or even if you're
[25:44] in a social conversation with someone
[25:46] who's enriching your mind, 101% that has
[25:50] a different effect on your brain than
[25:51] when you mindlessly consume stuff
[25:54] scrolling without really spending time
[25:57] to, you know, absorb the content of what
[25:59] you're looking at.
[26:00] >> True. True. So you said white matter is
[26:04] a signal carrier. Gray matter is the
[26:07] place where signal gets correct. Right.
[26:09] So if if somebody drinks alcohol does
[26:11] that affect gray matter?
[26:12] >> It actually affects the whole signal
[26:14] transmission and also affects gray
[26:16] matter and affects white matter.
[26:17] >> So what happens? Let's say this is
[26:18] brain. Okay.
[26:20] >> And in that you put a drop of
[26:22] >> so alcohol.
[26:24] >> Yeah. So let's say there's chronic
[26:25] alcohol consumption. One of the things
[26:27] that alcohol does is it inhibits
[26:29] neurons. So people think of of it as oh
[26:31] I'm having the high from alcohol but
[26:33] actually alcohol is a CNS depressant it
[26:36] reduces the firing of neurons which is
[26:39] why over time one of the things that you
[26:41] do is you notice that people find it
[26:42] hard to walk a straight line we find it
[26:45] hard to have a clear speech that
[26:47] articulation of clear speech goes right
[26:49] then once it gets worse you start seeing
[26:52] motor abnormalities you're not able to
[26:54] like balance yourself that's because the
[26:56] neurons are actually shutting off
[26:58] >> and because one by on they start
[27:00] shutting off in different parts of the
[27:01] brain. Most times people fall asleep
[27:04] before they have reached a really severe
[27:06] state
[27:07] >> but it is chronic exposure to alcohol is
[27:10] damaging to the nervous system. There's
[27:12] no question about it. I mean the science
[27:14] on this is very very clear right that
[27:16] you do kill neurons when you expose them
[27:18] to alcohol.
[27:19] >> So now so if this is our brain okay
[27:22] >> Mhm.
[27:24] >> on this when the alcohol goes what
[27:26] happen? Does does it change something?
[27:28] Does the white thing get something like
[27:29] or nothing changes?
[27:31] >> So is so the alcohol would enter the
[27:33] nervous system through your bloodstream,
[27:35] right? Normally you're not going to have
[27:37] direct alcohol exposure. It's going to
[27:38] go through the bloodstream and then get
[27:40] to the brain. Once it gets to the brain,
[27:42] you get it. It goes to
[27:44] >> all over the nervous system. A blood
[27:45] supply goes everywhere in the brain. So
[27:47] there's not a part of your brain that is
[27:48] not going to see alcohol. A lot of how
[27:51] much alcohol will get then depends on
[27:53] how well your liver metabolizes the
[27:54] alcohol. So there are people who get
[27:56] drunk very quickly and there are people
[27:58] who will have a larger amount of alcohol
[28:00] and not see the effects. It depends on
[28:02] the enzymes in their liver and how much
[28:04] alcohol you clear in your liver before
[28:06] it enters your bloodstream in full
[28:08] content. Right? So individuals will have
[28:11] different levels of alcohol that their
[28:13] brain sees as a consequence. For
[28:14] example, the Japanese do very badly at
[28:16] metabolizing alcohol. So they tend to
[28:18] have a higher blood alcohol level when
[28:20] they have the same amount of alcohol
[28:22] exposure. So when you have that kind of
[28:24] alcohol exposure once a neuron sees
[28:26] alcohol the GABA there's a
[28:28] neurotransmitter channel called a GABA
[28:31] channel that gets affected and that
[28:33] actually starts showing increased signal
[28:36] >> neurons start reducing their firing as
[28:39] in so let's say I had a signal that I
[28:40] needed to convey from here to my hand
[28:42] >> this hand wants to touch this right so
[28:45] I'm I have a neuron that's carrying the
[28:46] signal to my spinal cord and now I want
[28:48] to move this I want to do the same
[28:50] action but there is alcohol in the
[28:52] nervous nervous system I will struggle
[28:54] first of all I might get somewhere there
[28:56] but I may not be able to precisely touch
[28:58] and then over time my ability to even
[29:00] move effectively is going to get
[29:02] hampered because the signal itself will
[29:04] decay since the signal producing neuron
[29:07] is not working as well
[29:08] >> interesting but does any of my brain
[29:11] part swell get strong get bigger get
[29:14] smaller
[29:14] >> smaller
[29:15] >> which one
[29:16] >> your hippocampus will shrink your
[29:18] prefrontal cortex over time will shrink
[29:20] >> what what like show me where So in this
[29:22] part of the brain right here is your
[29:24] prefrontal cortex. So if I turn this
[29:26] over, I think I should be able to show
[29:28] you the prefrontal cortex on the other
[29:29] side. Let's see.
[29:33] >> No. Okay. Here I can see the hippocampus
[29:35] in this section.
[29:36] >> Right here is a structure called the
[29:38] hippocampus.
[29:39] >> That structure has been beautifully
[29:41] named after a seahorse, but let's forget
[29:43] why it was called that. But the
[29:45] hippocampus is involved in learning.
[29:47] It's involved in memory formation. It's
[29:49] responsible for all the memories you
[29:52] build which are explicit memories where
[29:54] you grew up, where you live, things that
[29:56] have happened in your life. All these
[29:57] events get recorded in your hypoc campus
[29:59] and then passed on to your cortex. Those
[30:02] neurons are very vulnerable. They tend
[30:04] to die more easily and they are
[30:07] definitely impacted by alcohol and you
[30:08] get shrinkage. First of the way the
[30:10] neuron looks it shrinks. Then neurons
[30:13] die. After they shrink, they die. So you
[30:15] lose neurons and so eventually if there
[30:17] is chronic and large scale usage
[30:20] >> then over time you do tend to kill those
[30:22] neurons.
[30:23] >> So that hippocampus which is responsible
[30:25] for your memory largely
[30:27] >> yes
[30:28] >> shrinken shrinken shrinkens and you
[30:30] start forgetting that's what alcohol
[30:31] does
[30:32] >> strong alcohol use and alcohol use
[30:35] disorder will definitely take you down
[30:37] that way. Yeah.
[30:37] >> So another question little slightly
[30:40] unrelated but I'll come back because you
[30:41] spoke about hippocampus. Do women have
[30:44] bigger hippoc campus than men?
[30:45] >> They have. No, actually they don't have
[30:47] >> Why do they remember things better? Like
[30:49] there there's a whole
[30:50] >> Interesting that you're saying this.
[30:51] Well, I mean, are there obvious and
[30:54] overt sex differences between the male
[30:56] and female brain? Not in the large
[30:58] scale, but in the detail in specific
[31:00] parts of the brain, there are
[31:01] differences. The hypothalamus has clear
[31:03] differences between the male and female
[31:05] brain. Um, but it's like a distribution
[31:08] and the distributions tend to overlap.
[31:10] So if you have a male distribution and
[31:11] you have a female distrib there will be
[31:13] people who are who look identical to
[31:14] each other. You can't say this is very
[31:15] different but there are individuals if
[31:17] you look at the means there are some
[31:18] differences. I think what happens is the
[31:21] way women are socialized we are
[31:23] socialized to remember details. We're
[31:26] socialized to remember birthdays. We're
[31:29] socialized to remember events because we
[31:31] become the memory keepers of our
[31:33] families.
[31:34] >> So if you just look at the home who's
[31:36] the memory keeper? It's usually the mom.
[31:38] >> Yeah. She's the one who's remembering
[31:40] everyone's birthday. She's the one who's
[31:42] remembering special dates. She's the one
[31:43] who's doing everything to make that day
[31:45] special. I don't think that's biological
[31:47] as much as that it is social. It has
[31:49] been strongly socially conditioned. And
[31:52] I think if you took a bunch of men and
[31:54] made it incentivized for them to also
[31:56] remember all they would remember it
[31:58] because they remember, you know, they
[31:59] remember something about their work
[32:02] situation,
[32:02] >> stock market numbers and stuff like
[32:04] that.
[32:04] >> It's not like you inherently. It's just
[32:06] that what you are remembering tends to
[32:08] be different because of what has been
[32:09] put as an emphasis socially but
[32:12] eventually the nervous system is
[32:14] remembering remembering stuff.
[32:15] >> So it's not the biology it's psychology
[32:17] mostly.
[32:18] >> It's a combination of biology overlaid
[32:20] by social.
[32:22] >> Got it. Interesting. Okay. So you were
[32:25] showing something.
[32:25] >> I want to show you what you want.
[32:27] >> Yeah. So that in this you can really see
[32:30] the white matter and the gray matter
[32:33] >> really distinct. There's the white
[32:34] matter. So now it's obvious
[32:39] as simple saw it, you know, microscope
[32:42] in their hand and they're like, "Okay,
[32:44] let's call this gray and let's call this
[32:45] white." It's as simple.
[32:46] >> But why not pink matter? Why?
[32:48] >> So if I leave this brain for long enough
[32:51] and if all the blood is fully cleared
[32:53] from it, it starts looking a bit gray.
[32:55] So here on this one, it might look a
[32:58] little bit more than than that. Let's
[33:00] take this one. And in this also, you'll
[33:02] be able to see the white matter and the
[33:03] gray matter. You should be able to see
[33:04] the
[33:05] >> white and the gray. I can
[33:06] >> Yeah. So that's that's what it was. It
[33:09] was just fixed and you saw it as white
[33:10] and gray and that's why it's called
[33:12] white matter.
[33:13] >> The blood like starts drying up.
[33:15] >> Yeah. The blood is taken out because if
[33:16] the blood is there you can't see very
[33:18] clearly and study it very well. So you
[33:20] clear out the blood which is what you do
[33:22] to fix the brain and then you take a
[33:24] look at it.
[33:24] >> Yeah.
[33:25] >> Okay. And the way I'm again going back
[33:27] to because I'm just curious to know more
[33:29] uh what alcohol does to like what you
[33:33] explained me about the alcohol right
[33:35] does sugar have similar impact
[33:37] >> so sugar is an addictive substance like
[33:41] alcohol so it hits the same motivational
[33:43] pathway the nucleus cumbence or VTA to
[33:46] nucleus cumbance pathway that's the
[33:47] dopamine producing pathway in your brain
[33:50] same circuit also gets hit by sugar so
[33:52] it's not your addiction to sugar is also
[33:55] happening happening through the same
[33:56] circuit that your alcohol addiction,
[33:58] nicotine addiction, same circuits,
[34:00] gambling addiction, same circuit.
[34:02] >> Now the circuit is vital because without
[34:05] that circuit you will not survive.
[34:06] Without that circuit you not remember
[34:08] that you're thirsty and you need to
[34:09] drink, that you're hungry and you need
[34:11] to eat. So that circuit is absolutely
[34:13] vital for survival. But it's also a
[34:15] circuit that is very prone to getting
[34:17] hijacked.
[34:18] So it gets hijacked. It gets hijacked by
[34:20] alcohol. It gets hijacked by drugs of
[34:22] abuse. It gets hijacked by sugar. It
[34:25] gets hijacked by gambling. And it can
[34:27] get hijacked by addictive conditions.
[34:30] >> Interesting. And then they all first
[34:32] affect hippocampus and then the ability
[34:35] to actually perform
[34:36] >> multiple parts of the brain including
[34:38] the hippocampus, prefrontal cortex,
[34:40] acumbance, multiple circuits to
[34:42] different degrees.
[34:43] >> The first thing they do is shrinken.
[34:45] >> They shrink very often the dendrites.
[34:47] Sometimes they cause a overgrowth of the
[34:50] branches in areas where you don't want
[34:52] an overgrowth.
[34:53] >> Give me an example.
[34:54] >> So for example, one of the things that
[34:56] they do is actually they cause an
[34:57] overgrowth in the area of the brain that
[35:00] is called the nucleus circumbent where
[35:02] you now are hyper prone to responding to
[35:04] the same addictive substance which
[35:06] >> it gets bigger.
[35:07] >> Yeah. So the it's not just always that
[35:10] it's causing a a breakdown of the
[35:12] structure. Sometimes it's causing it to
[35:14] expand and become hyper sensitive.
[35:16] hyperensitive it becomes hyper sensitive
[35:18] to the drug. So the same it can become
[35:21] hyperensitive it can also become
[35:22] tolerant such that the same dose of the
[35:25] drug doesn't give you the same response
[35:26] and so now you need to take twice as
[35:28] much to get the same effect
[35:30] >> which happens most of the time. Okay. So
[35:32] we we clear this and we'll get the mic.
[35:34] >> Let's get the microscope. Yeah. So you
[35:35] know the question you asked me which is
[35:37] look it's a rat brain it's a mouse brain
[35:39] it's a goat brain it's a human brain.
[35:40] How can you study a human brain when
[35:42] you're using a rat or a mouse or a goat?
[35:44] Because the building blocks like I said
[35:46] are the same. Like if you build a Lego,
[35:47] you can build a small little house with
[35:49] a Lego. You can build a huge plane with
[35:51] a Lego. So in here is the building
[35:53] blocks that I want to show you. So in
[35:55] here is actually a section through the
[35:57] rat brain
[35:58] >> in which we have stained the neurons. So
[36:00] you can actually see the individual
[36:02] neurons. So I have zoomed in for you. So
[36:05] if you take a look through this, bring
[36:07] your eyes there. You should be able to
[36:08] see these cells. Keep both eyes open and
[36:11] just relax and look.
[36:13] Okay.
[36:14] >> Can you see these blacklike dots with
[36:16] these large trees? Almost looks like a
[36:18] forest of trees, right?
[36:21] >> Just branches.
[36:22] >> Branches.
[36:23] >> That's actually a neuron. Those are
[36:25] neurons in the rat cortex.
[36:27] >> Okay.
[36:28] >> Our neurons are remarkably similar.
[36:31] >> They're bigger. Okay. So, if you say
[36:34] this is like a 100 micron, which is like
[36:37] a for a millimeter, it's significantly
[36:40] smaller. Okay. So like if you have 100
[36:43] micron neuron these these cells will be
[36:45] a little bit bigger our neurons but
[36:47] they're not drastically different and it
[36:49] doesn't matter if it's a goat brain
[36:51] human brain
[36:51] >> just the dots will be bigger.
[36:53] >> Yeah the trees actually might be a
[36:55] little larger as well but in its there's
[36:58] a there's a real common architecture to
[37:01] these neurons. It's they look very
[37:03] similar. Okay. So if you want to study
[37:05] how a neuron works or how a neuron
[37:07] functions you can't study it easily in
[37:09] the human brain. So we study it in
[37:11] animals where we have the chance to
[37:13] study it well and you can study it in a
[37:15] rat and mouse brain with great detail
[37:17] and great understanding. But when you
[37:21] when you study the effect of something
[37:23] let's say some medicine some drug some
[37:26] psychedelic some inducing chemicals
[37:30] >> a rat's brain does it show similar kind
[37:34] of
[37:35] >> yes like things that as a human brain
[37:37] >> it does because
[37:38] >> so let's say if you put like a depressed
[37:40] human brain and a depressed rat brain
[37:42] >> correct
[37:42] >> and then you put one medicine which is
[37:44] making both of them happy
[37:45] >> correct
[37:46] >> they give you the same similar
[37:47] >> they give you similar responses I will
[37:49] not say same because the complexity of
[37:51] this brain, the human brain is
[37:52] definitely more than the complexity of
[37:54] the rat brain.
[37:55] >> Interesting. So and and would you say
[37:57] that rat's brain is the closest thing?
[38:00] >> The closest thing to us is the non-human
[38:02] primates. So the gorillas and the chimps
[38:04] and the monkeys are the closest because
[38:06] they are our cousins.
[38:08] >> They are first cousins. Okay? In the
[38:10] family of life, they are our first
[38:12] cousins. And it's very obvious. If you
[38:14] look at a bunch of monkeys, you'll begin
[38:16] to realize that actually in principle
[38:17] this could be humans as well. You know,
[38:20] there's like relationships. You remember
[38:22] who's whose ar then they remove the, you
[38:24] know, they remove the the lice. That's
[38:26] the way they have. So, we also have our
[38:27] ways of grooming each other. A lot of
[38:29] like when you see a family together,
[38:31] people will line up and do chumpy to
[38:33] each other. It's because it's a way of
[38:34] indicating care.
[38:36] >> It's our language of care. And you see
[38:38] very similar things in non-human
[38:40] primates as well. So they are the
[38:41] closest to us but they are much more
[38:43] complex species and they're not the
[38:45] ideal species in which to do research.
[38:47] First of all
[38:48] >> they feel a lot. They're like us with a
[38:51] much broader emotional spectrum and so
[38:53] they come with the challenges that when
[38:55] you when to go inside the brain and look
[38:57] it's not ethically viable to do these
[39:00] experiments in non-human primates as
[39:02] easily. That's not to say that nobody
[39:03] has. People do some critical work is
[39:06] done in non-human primates, but they're
[39:08] not the species of choice to study.
[39:12] >> But why? If monkey is the closest to
[39:14] human,
[39:16] >> right? Why are we
[39:17] >> because they also they're also the
[39:19] closest to human and we identify deeply
[39:21] with them. It's the same way as what
[39:23] when we look at the hierarchies of
[39:25] species. Species that exhibit large
[39:27] amount of care and a large amount of
[39:30] nurture are the species that better now
[39:32] if we do it
[39:33] >> I understand but then we probably do it
[39:35] via imaging where we don't have to take
[39:36] the life of the animal we will not do
[39:38] something that takes the life of the
[39:40] animal right so this is where this is
[39:42] where the boundaries of what one
[39:44] ethically can do a lot of this can also
[39:46] be studied in the human brain you can
[39:47] image the human brain you can image the
[39:50] monkey brain but you will not take the
[39:52] life when you go in because you're using
[39:54] that animal to study but you have an
[39:57] ethical framework in which you are using
[39:59] those animals
[39:59] >> but here's my little complicated
[40:01] question more philosophical rather right
[40:06] >> who set this boundary that taking a life
[40:08] of a rat is ethical versus
[40:09] >> I completely agree
[40:10] >> taking a life of monkey is not ethical
[40:12] so if it's animal it's it has to be
[40:14] animal
[40:14] >> we tend to apply this based on sensience
[40:18] and understanding of consciousness we
[40:20] know that we are conscious right we now
[40:23] are attributing an understanding of
[40:25] consciousness to other species species
[40:27] that are closer to us in the complexity
[40:30] of their brains whales
[40:31] Dolphins, monkeys, gyms, gorillas, their
[40:36] complexity of their nervous system is
[40:38] much closer to us. And so we attribute
[40:41] to them greater understanding of complex
[40:44] emotions and consciousness like states
[40:47] which we do not attribute so much to a
[40:49] rat. Now that may be a little bit of an
[40:51] unfair categorization because rats also
[40:54] show empathy. They can also show
[40:56] altruistic behavior and they do feel.
[40:58] It's not like they don't feel, right? So
[41:00] there is this awareness that we have.
[41:03] However, somewhere in the history of
[41:05] time. We could have also said let's just
[41:06] study flies which also have complex
[41:08] nervous systems. They fly etc. They have
[41:10] a much shorter lifespan and people do a
[41:12] lot of things. We do we study in worm.
[41:15] We study and fly but we can't study the
[41:17] mamalian brain in worm and fly. And the
[41:20] mamalian brain is much more closer to us
[41:23] because we are mammals. So to it was a
[41:25] via media. Is it the best solution? No.
[41:28] But it is a via media solution that the
[41:30] community has come up with. At the same
[41:32] time saying that there will still be
[41:34] strict ethical oversight over all
[41:36] experiments. All experiments have like
[41:38] ethical clearances that have they have
[41:40] to go through. But it's a very fair
[41:42] question and it's one which is difficult
[41:43] to deal with and a difficult one to
[41:45] answer because in a sense you're saying
[41:48] we are putting human life as a higher
[41:50] value than the life of the animal that
[41:52] we are taking to be able to study.
[41:54] Right? So there is there is that sort of
[41:56] a thing that we So let's say we have put
[41:57] in human as because every species is
[42:01] selfish and they think their species is
[42:03] the top level specy, right? You could
[42:05] see that in multiple other species and
[42:06] animals as well. Correct.
[42:07] >> They would even their totally unrelated
[42:09] animals, they'll save their other
[42:11] animals similarly and attack humans,
[42:12] right? Absolutely.
[42:13] >> So let's say we put humans at the top
[42:15] because we are humans. We're biased. But
[42:17] how do we decide hierarchy of what are
[42:19] the animals who are going to be
[42:22] >> worth taking life versus not taking
[42:23] >> probably in terms of the complexity of
[42:26] their nervous system and the tendency of
[42:29] those species to do a great deal of
[42:31] nurture and care. Right? So when you
[42:34] look at monkeys and non-human primates,
[42:36] there's a lot of community social
[42:38] architecture where they exhibit a lot.
[42:41] They also mourn very visibly mourn.
[42:44] Elephants very visibly moan. That is not
[42:47] to say that a rodent doesn't feel that
[42:50] kind of pain and suffering, but it's not
[42:52] as visible perhaps.
[42:53] >> But do they do they feel?
[42:55] >> They definitely feel they definitely
[42:57] feel
[42:58] >> like if a rat
[42:59] >> watches another animal go through pain,
[43:01] it feels it. There's something called
[43:03] witness element and there's witness
[43:05] stress and that is experienced even by
[43:07] rodents. So two unrelated rats,
[43:10] >> you put both of them in a lab and one
[43:12] rat sees another rat going through
[43:14] extreme pain and torture. This rat will
[43:16] feel
[43:16] >> it will feel it.
[43:18] >> Interesting. Very just I don't know
[43:21] which angle we've taken the podcast but
[43:22] I find it very interesting. And
[43:24] >> so goat brain you said you study goat
[43:26] brain because it's the closest
[43:29] >> I mean you can study
[43:29] >> in terms of shape and size.
[43:31] >> We study the rat and the mouse most in
[43:33] my labor.
[43:33] >> Absolutely. No. So you got today rat,
[43:35] mouse and goat. Why goat? Good. Because
[43:38] it'll look most to someone who has never
[43:41] seen a brain like something that they
[43:43] imagine the human brain to look like.
[43:46] >> Right? So if I have to say here Raj,
[43:48] here's a brain. I'm showing you a brain
[43:50] and can you see this and immediately
[43:51] think of something you remember from
[43:53] when you were in school, then the goat
[43:54] brain immediately evokes that memory.
[43:57] But if I show you a rat and mouse brain,
[43:58] you'll say that's interesting, but it
[44:00] doesn't look like anything. That's why I
[44:01] got the goat brain also so that you may
[44:03] see that
[44:05] >> the building blocks are similar. It
[44:07] doesn't matter which species you're
[44:09] studying. The building blocks are very
[44:10] very similar and by studying the
[44:12] building blocks you can understand much
[44:14] about what is happening in our brain.
[44:16] >> Okay. You were showing me this. What
[44:18] what is this?
[44:18] >> So now I showed you so I showed you what
[44:20] the cortex looks like. Okay. And with a
[44:23] very old kind of technique called Golgi
[44:25] staining. And what I'm going to do now
[44:27] is show you what I think I should have
[44:29] in this the the Wow, you did a good job.
[44:33] You did that automatically almost.
[44:35] >> Okay. Let me just see if I can zoom and
[44:37] show you. Yeah.
[44:38] >> So, you know, we were talking about gray
[44:40] matter and white white matter, right?
[44:42] So, gray matter I told you is the place
[44:43] where all the cells are. So, now if I
[44:45] want to see the cells, is there a way I
[44:47] can stain the cells? So, in this there's
[44:49] a Nissle stain which allows you to stain
[44:52] the cell body.
[44:53] >> What is nissell stain?
[44:54] >> It's just a stain that binds to RNA
[44:56] granules inside cells.
[44:58] >> I still didn't get it. Explain it
[45:00] simply. It's it's a chemical that will
[45:02] go and bind to a certain kind of a
[45:04] molecule within your cell and because of
[45:06] that it'll stain all these cells and so
[45:08] they end up staining a nice blue.
[45:10] >> Okay.
[45:10] >> So you can see them they'll be dark blue
[45:12] and they look circular because these
[45:13] cells are largely either circular
[45:15] parameal or oval or elliptical. So
[45:17] >> so this is how you find out cells.
[45:20] >> Yeah. This is in the hypo campus.
[45:21] >> You study these.
[45:24] >> So So there is like one purple thingy I
[45:27] do I see and then there's a blue thing.
[45:29] The blue thingy is what you're looking
[45:30] at. Those blue cells, can you see them
[45:32] all like next to each other? They look
[45:34] like grapes almost next to each other.
[45:38] They're all next to each other. And
[45:40] that's the hypoc campus.
[45:41] >> This is this sort
[45:42] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like blue blue dots
[45:44] next.
[45:44] >> Yeah. But then I see like this one sort
[45:46] of like one thing coming out as well.
[45:48] >> Yeah. That that's an air bubble that has
[45:50] happened. That is not a good slice. It's
[45:53] a bubble. So ignore the ignore.
[45:54] >> Okay. I'm just supposed to see the blue
[45:56] thing which is
[45:57] >> which almost looks like freckles.
[45:59] >> Yeah, it looks like freckles. It's
[46:00] exactly that. But those are the cells in
[46:02] the hippocampus. That's your memory
[46:04] making structure in the brain.
[46:06] >> So these like these thousands or maybe
[46:08] millions of
[46:08] >> So in a rat is memory
[46:11] >> memory. That's where your memories made.
[46:15] >> So you need the hypocampus to make new
[46:17] memories.
[46:18] >> So do like each one of them actually
[46:20] form a memory in my head.
[46:21] >> So that's a interesting question. And
[46:23] there's a hypothesis called the
[46:24] formation of engrams. Okay? And I'll
[46:27] tell you what this engram formation is.
[46:28] It's a an idea that's not that new but
[46:30] it's been something people have been
[46:32] working on very closely in the last 10
[46:34] years. So let's say I come to this room
[46:36] right now. I have this this room in
[46:38] which I see Raj Shamani opposite me. I
[46:40] see it says figuring out. I have this
[46:41] bottle of water. I'm creating a memory
[46:44] of this moment of this time of this
[46:47] individual. And I will now walk away
[46:49] from here. The next time I come back
[46:50] here, if that memory has been strongly
[46:53] made, it will activate certain cells in
[46:57] my brain that have encoded this memory.
[46:59] Right? So, let's say I have cells A, B,
[47:01] C, D, E, F, G in that part of the brain
[47:03] that encode this memory. Then I go away.
[47:05] I'm not coming back here immediately.
[47:07] One week later, you happen to say, why
[47:09] don't you come over to the studio? And I
[47:11] come over and then those same cells get
[47:13] reactivated because that memory has
[47:15] stopped. So, that's a that's called an
[47:17] engram. the physical map of the where
[47:20] the memory is stored in my brain.
[47:23] >> Now let's imagine I go to somebody
[47:25] else's studio. Now that studio happens
[47:27] to have the exact same table, the exact
[47:30] same whatever maybe doesn't have Raja
[47:33] has something but very similar.
[47:34] >> Similar okay same color very similar and
[47:37] I get a partial activation of the engram
[47:39] and then I think oh maybe I've been here
[47:40] before which is actually not true. I
[47:43] haven't been there. But because it over
[47:45] overlapped so much with something that I
[47:47] already had a memory of, I get this
[47:49] weird feeling of deja vu where I'm like,
[47:52] I think I've been here before, but I
[47:53] actually haven't. It's just that my
[47:55] brain thinks I've been here because
[47:57] there's this reactivation of this
[48:00] engram. So this partial activation of
[48:02] the engram is enough to bring back the
[48:04] whole thing.
[48:04] >> So our brain is something it's it's a
[48:07] pattern completer. It wants to take
[48:09] partial information and finish the
[48:10] information. M
[48:11] >> so it takes a little bit of information
[48:12] says ah I think I've seen this and now
[48:15] let me finish the whole story in my head
[48:16] it's like how we don't have the patience
[48:18] to hear the whole story you start
[48:19] telling me a story and I'm like but I
[48:21] know where you're going with this don't
[48:22] finish the story I understood what
[48:23] you're saying right so that tendency of
[48:26] our brain is to take shortcuts where a
[48:29] shortcut making we want to finish
[48:31] quickly quickly like let's get this done
[48:34] and let me get all the information out
[48:36] partially and complete the whole picture
[48:38] because I think
[48:39] >> motor moti I exactly I will get it
[48:43] mostly right and 95% of the time you'll
[48:46] get away with it also because you may
[48:47] get it broadly but sometimes in the
[48:50] detail you will get it wrong
[48:52] >> and when you get it wrong in the detail
[48:54] the only way to correct that is by
[48:55] slowing it down
[48:57] >> you have to slow it down to take the
[48:59] time to learn it so for example let's
[49:02] say you take an exam let's say you have
[49:03] an exam to do tomorrow and you decide
[49:05] you're going to mug everything that is
[49:07] there today
[49:08] >> and broadly you may get some part of it
[49:11] correct the next day. 2 weeks later I
[49:13] ask you to remember anything. You have
[49:14] forgotten everything because it was
[49:16] shortterm short-term memory and you have
[49:19] not really learned it. You have just
[49:21] memorized it enough to produce something
[49:23] the next day and vomit it out and then
[49:25] your brain says now I'm not wasting any
[49:27] space on all this because you have not
[49:29] taken the time to properly learn it. M
[49:33] >> so what you remember as short-term
[49:36] quickly done shortcut associated doesn't
[49:39] last
[49:40] >> the brain is not wasting too much so
[49:42] even when you go back into school
[49:45] >> the few subjects that you really love
[49:47] and you really learned you learned well
[49:49] you'll feel comfortable with a lot of
[49:51] other stuff you've just memorized
[49:53] >> I have no idea
[49:54] >> forgotten you've just vomited it out and
[49:57] it's now blank like if somebody asks you
[49:59] say I did I ever really study that I
[50:01] don't remember studying But do they get
[50:02] stored in these these blue dots?
[50:04] >> They do get stored in the strength of
[50:07] the connections between these two dots.
[50:08] So those right now you're seeing only
[50:10] the blue dots.
[50:11] >> You're not seeing the nerve connections
[50:13] between the dots. For that you need a
[50:15] different kind of stain. The stain I
[50:16] showed you before showed all these
[50:17] fibers coming out. Right? So those are
[50:19] the axons and the dendrites. That's
[50:21] where all the connections are made
[50:23] between these cells. Now if I take my
[50:25] skin cells, they don't have these kinds
[50:26] of branches. They're just cells stuck
[50:28] next to each other. They're epithelial
[50:30] cells. But cells in the brain produce
[50:32] their functions by talking to each
[50:34] other. It's all communication. It's a
[50:37] signal that I send to you and you
[50:38] receive the signal. I send the signal
[50:40] through my axon if I was a cell. And if
[50:42] you were a neuron also, you were
[50:44] receiving it through your dendrites. So
[50:46] this is how we are communicating. It is
[50:48] in the communication that the memory is
[50:50] eventually strengthened and maintained.
[50:53] >> Very interesting. So explain me in
[50:55] simple terms as if I have no clue and
[50:58] you're telling me for the first time in
[51:00] the most layman terms. Okay. Don't don't
[51:01] be scientific.
[51:02] >> I won't be scientific.
[51:03] >> So it's like tell me how memor is
[51:05] formed.
[51:06] >> Okay.
[51:08] >> And where is it formed? Like what
[51:09] happens?
[51:10] >> Okay. So there are different kinds of
[51:12] memories.
[51:13] >> There's a memory of you learning how to
[51:14] ride a bicycle,
[51:16] >> right? You learned how to ride a
[51:17] bicycle. That is done. That's a
[51:19] procedural memory.
[51:21] >> That's a part of your brain. a different
[51:23] part of your brain that processes
[51:24] procedural memories. When you learned
[51:26] how to walk, when you learned how to
[51:27] bicycle, when you learned how to swim,
[51:29] >> that's one kind of memory. How you
[51:31] learned how to dance, maybe a beautiful
[51:33] sequence. These are all procedural
[51:35] memories.
[51:36] >> They're not memories that you consider
[51:39] the explicit memories. Explicit memories
[51:41] are memories where you and I can
[51:42] describe something. You can tell me
[51:44] yesterday I went out for a meal with
[51:46] this person. This is what I ate. That's
[51:48] your memory of what happened yesterday.
[51:49] You can also tell me that 20 years ago
[51:52] this was what I ate in the gali outside
[51:54] my school and this was how the vada
[51:56] tasted or whatever. Right? Those are
[51:58] explicit memories. Now these are two
[52:00] different classes of memories. They also
[52:02] tend to be processed by different parts
[52:03] of the brain.
[52:04] >> Right?
[52:05] >> Now one memory the learning how to ride
[52:08] a bicycle once you learned how to ride a
[52:09] bicycle you're not remembering every
[52:10] single time how did I ride the bus
[52:12] bicycle. You just get on and you ride.
[52:13] Yeah, it's
[52:14] >> the same way as you learned how to walk
[52:15] every time you're not remembering to
[52:17] walk I need to move my foot like this
[52:19] etc. Right, you just do it and that's
[52:20] all procedure. But explicit memories are
[52:24] in the retelling of the memory that the
[52:26] memory becomes actually relevant.
[52:29] >> Okay,
[52:29] >> if I have a memory and I never talk
[52:31] about it ever over time the memories
[52:33] will fade. Right? It is in my
[52:36] description of the memories that they
[52:38] get alive
[52:40] >> either openly by my talking about it or
[52:43] by my thinking about it. I can think
[52:46] about it and keep that memory alive as
[52:48] well. So sometimes you close your eyes
[52:49] and you imagine someone you loved, a
[52:52] parent, a family member who's no more,
[52:53] but you can almost imagine their face
[52:56] and it comes back up because it's a
[52:58] visual memory that you're recreating.
[53:00] And some people are very visual and they
[53:02] can actually close their eyes and bring
[53:04] back the memory of the person.
[53:06] >> But those memories are kept alive by
[53:08] your brain or when you talk about
[53:10] something
[53:10] >> explicit.
[53:11] >> Yeah, those are explicit memories. They
[53:13] are actually formed all explicit
[53:15] memories appear to be formed involving
[53:17] the hippocampus. So we need the
[53:18] hippocampus for explicit memories. And
[53:21] the way we understood this was actually
[53:24] um because of a person called HM. Okay,
[53:27] HM was a guy called Henry Molasan. He
[53:30] had severe seizures. He just was seizing
[53:34] so badly and there was no medication or
[53:35] treatment for it. So the surgeon went in
[53:37] and took out the part of the brain that
[53:39] was producing the seizures because the
[53:41] seizures were so severe he couldn't
[53:43] function.
[53:44] >> But in the process, the part of the
[53:45] brain that was producing it was the
[53:46] hippocampus. So they took out the
[53:49] hypocampus bilaterally. And now Henry
[53:51] could not make any new memories. Old
[53:54] memories which had distributed out of
[53:55] the hypocampus were still there. But all
[53:58] the new memories nothing new could be
[54:00] formed. So let's say I was a doctor and
[54:02] you are Henry. I come and say hi Henry
[54:04] how are you today? Shall we talk about
[54:06] something? Then tomorrow I come again I
[54:07] have to introduce myself cuz you have no
[54:09] idea who I am. You have made no memory
[54:10] of either me or this interaction. But if
[54:13] I try teach you to draw something,
[54:16] >> you learn it and you get better and
[54:18] better at drawing it because pro
[54:19] procedural memory is still okay.
[54:21] >> So that's when we first learned that the
[54:23] hippoc campus is so important for
[54:26] forming memories. So our idea of
[54:28] location and space and people and events
[54:32] is encoded first in the hypoc campus.
[54:34] >> Interesting.
[54:35] >> Then from there it goes to being
[54:36] distributed in many different it's like
[54:38] almost a bank teller machine. You need
[54:40] to have the hypoc campus to get the
[54:42] memory. After that you don't keep
[54:43] everything in the hypoc, you distribute
[54:45] it. So you send it to many other parts
[54:46] of the cortex. So now it lives in many
[54:48] different distributed places. And that's
[54:50] why old memories which are distributed
[54:53] to many locations tend to be the last to
[54:56] go.
[54:58] So when you have someone who's much
[54:59] older in your family who has Alzheimer's
[55:01] or is has cognitive impairments or
[55:04] dementia, they will sometimes remember
[55:06] the most excruciatingly small detail
[55:09] about some old memory, but they don't
[55:11] remember who you are
[55:12] >> as recent as what has happened
[55:14] yesterday. They don't remember. It's
[55:16] because that memory is relatively fresh
[55:17] and hasn't had a chance to become an old
[55:20] stable consolidated memory that's
[55:22] distributed to many locations in the
[55:25] brain.
[55:25] >> True. True. I've I've seen this live in
[55:28] one of my family members. they they went
[55:32] through an episode for about 6 7 days
[55:35] where they for like they had this
[55:39] like very I I wouldn't I don't know if
[55:40] you call it stroke or like some some
[55:43] sort of episode where
[55:45] >> they forgot who the family members were
[55:48] and they were like who's this person
[55:50] >> but next morning they just and everybody
[55:55] in the family was very shocked that oh
[55:56] maybe they've forgotten everything and
[55:58] now this is end and you know how family
[56:00] reacts first time.
[56:01] >> Next morning that person woke up at the
[56:04] exact same time when they wake up. They
[56:06] got up, they started cooking in an exact
[56:09] proper way as if everything was normal
[56:12] and they served it to the five people
[56:13] who they remembered.
[56:14] >> Yeah,
[56:15] >> that's interesting. Yeah, the brain is a
[56:17] very complex. It's like brain like that
[56:20] person's brain remembered how to cook,
[56:22] >> where the food is,
[56:24] >> where the salt is, like all of that
[56:26] thing, but they couldn't remember who
[56:28] was this person muscle memory.
[56:30] >> Then you dance or you sing or you
[56:32] sometimes even produce some piece which
[56:34] involves movement. You're not thinking
[56:36] that nowaday
[56:38] then I have to do this. Let's say
[56:40] someone who's been doing bat natam for
[56:41] multiple years. There are so many
[56:43] different dances. Do you remember which
[56:45] is the next step? It's become muscle
[56:46] memory, right? When we call something
[56:48] becoming muscle memory, it's because
[56:50] it's almost as though it's produced
[56:51] automatically. So for many people who
[56:54] would be going to the kitchen every day
[56:56] doing the same ritual, you know, putying
[56:58] something, doing something, that
[57:00] repeated action is almost muscle memory.
[57:03] It's not now I have to remember that I
[57:05] have to take this out and then do this.
[57:07] >> So when does this normal explicit memory
[57:10] become muscle memory?
[57:12] >> So procedural memories become muscle
[57:15] memories very easily. That's the ones
[57:16] that involve movement.
[57:19] >> Explicit memories get distributed and
[57:22] don't become muscle memories, but they
[57:24] get distributed to multiple parts of
[57:25] your cortex. So, they become, how to put
[57:28] it? They're more stable because they've
[57:29] had time to marinate and distribute to
[57:33] many parts of the brain. So, very old
[57:36] memories which are very strong memories
[57:38] tend to get distributed like this. But
[57:39] let me ask you a question. You went to
[57:42] school in Mumbai. I don't know where you
[57:44] went to school. Indor.
[57:45] >> Indor. You had a favorite teacher?
[57:47] >> Yeah.
[57:47] >> You remember your favorite teacher?
[57:49] >> Do you remember the person you hated the
[57:50] most in school who didn't was a bad
[57:52] teacher?
[57:53] >> Do you remember all the people who you
[57:54] were neutral towards?
[57:55] >> No, I don't remember half of their name.
[57:58] I don't I'm finding it hard like who
[58:00] were the apart from five teachers who
[58:01] are new, I don't even know who were the
[58:02] other teachers
[58:03] >> precisely. So this is a good exercise
[58:05] which one can easily do that if you go
[58:07] back 20 years 20 25 years sometimes 10
[58:09] years. Who do you remember from a large
[58:12] setting where there were many people you
[58:14] tend to remember the people you really
[58:15] liked tend to remember the people you
[58:17] really disliked the people you're
[58:19] neutral to you just forget
[58:20] >> so emotionally charged memories
[58:22] >> you remember anything that has emotion
[58:24] charged good charged bad doesn't matter
[58:27] negative charge or positive charge
[58:28] >> you basically need meaning to remember
[58:31] the memory it has to matter things that
[58:33] don't matter your brain is not so for
[58:35] example you're not going to remember
[58:36] formula and maths if if they're not
[58:39] changing your life every Yeah,
[58:40] >> if they're changing your life every day,
[58:42] you will remember it. But otherwise, why
[58:43] are you going to just go out of your
[58:45] brain?
[58:46] >> Interesting. So, but then why are some
[58:48] people or some kids or some individuals
[58:51] are so good with their memory and they
[58:53] remember everything versus some
[58:55] individuals are not.
[58:57] >> So, you know, there's there things where
[58:59] people talk aboutactic memory or
[59:01] photographic memory where you actually
[59:03] look at a page and now you remember it
[59:04] and the next day you just remember the
[59:06] page.
[59:07] That's some of it is training, some of
[59:11] it is inherent capabilities also. Like
[59:14] for example, someone is a really good
[59:16] dancer versus not. Someone's really good
[59:18] at having hand eye coordination and
[59:20] that's why they can play. So there will
[59:21] be some inherent differences but a lot
[59:23] of it is once you discover talent, you
[59:26] tend to hone it. You tend to hone it.
[59:29] When you are good at something and you
[59:30] realize, you know, this is I'm something
[59:32] that this is actually a positive reward
[59:34] for me because I feel good at it. Mhm.
[59:36] >> It's a selfperpetuating thing. The
[59:39] minute you find something you're good at
[59:41] and it gives you a sense of pleasure and
[59:43] a sense of reward that you have done
[59:46] well at it, you tend to go and repeat
[59:48] it. So are you telling me that if there
[59:50] is a kid okay in a family
[59:54] and let's say two kids who have exactly
[59:56] same
[59:58] identical biology and brain okay two
[01:00:00] kids
[01:00:01] >> one kid you tell that kid again again
[01:00:04] you're dumb you can't remember
[01:00:05] everything again and again every day for
[01:00:07] a year and one kid you keep telling
[01:00:10] every day that you're intelligent you
[01:00:12] remember everything okay you're you're
[01:00:14] such a brilliant kid you have sharp
[01:00:16] memory and you remember everything
[01:00:18] regardless of what they do. If you keep
[01:00:19] telling them, you think the one you're
[01:00:21] telling nice things will end up becoming
[01:00:23] better at memory than versus 1%. There's
[01:00:26] no doubt about it because the stress
[01:00:29] associated with continuously being
[01:00:31] negated and continuously being told
[01:00:33] you're incapable has a clear impact. I'm
[01:00:36] not saying it would be black or white,
[01:00:38] but there's no question that if you
[01:00:40] started with two individuals with
[01:00:41] identical capability and then the
[01:00:43] environment pushed one to have positive
[01:00:46] reinforcement and the other to have
[01:00:47] continuous negative reinforcement,
[01:00:49] there's no doubt that you will drive a
[01:00:51] different
[01:00:54] >> and can they do that in adults as well?
[01:00:56] >> To a lesser extent, but absolutely to a
[01:00:58] lesser extent because the brain is much
[01:01:00] more plastic and much more open to
[01:01:03] change in a younger nervous system. So
[01:01:06] your first 25 years of your life, that's
[01:01:08] a window in which there's much more
[01:01:10] plasticity than in the second 25 and the
[01:01:12] last 25. It's downhill after that first
[01:01:15] 25. It moves in the other direction. So
[01:01:17] plasticity is reducing in the range of
[01:01:19] what it can do. So when I say
[01:01:21] plasticity, it means the ability of your
[01:01:23] brain to change to effectively change in
[01:01:26] response to environment. Our brain is a
[01:01:28] like I said its job is to take in
[01:01:30] information from the environment and
[01:01:32] make change to be able to adapt better
[01:01:35] to the world. That's what it does.
[01:01:37] >> Interest very interest. But tell me how
[01:01:40] Okay. Coming to high achievers. Okay.
[01:01:43] And this is the most fascinating thing
[01:01:44] which I
[01:01:46] which I love doing. Right. So I I
[01:01:48] observe a lot of athletes and just for
[01:01:51] the fun of it like how do they perform
[01:01:53] how do they come to the show court what
[01:01:55] do they do in practice and all the
[01:01:56] videos I can find out right there's one
[01:01:58] identical thing you will find out in I
[01:02:00] think thousands of Olympic athletes okay
[01:02:04] and you'll see that probably you know it
[01:02:05] already is when like you you look at all
[01:02:08] the runners or anyone the moment there
[01:02:11] is like this
[01:02:12] >> the gun right the body moves have you
[01:02:14] seen it like
[01:02:15] >> it's a prep
[01:02:16] >> yeah it's a prep right an internal prep
[01:02:18] of the brain before the anything
[01:02:20] actually happens.
[01:02:21] >> So what I was seeing I was I was looking
[01:02:23] at this one runner who whose race was
[01:02:27] next. Okay. And he was in the stands and
[01:02:29] he was watching. This is Olympic going
[01:02:31] on and I think it was like a 400 meter
[01:02:33] race and next was 100 m something like
[01:02:35] that. Okay. This guy was standing here.
[01:02:39] The race was there and they put a gun
[01:02:42] trigger for that race. But this guy in
[01:02:45] the stand, he was like in a resting
[01:02:47] mode. His body moved.
[01:02:48] >> Totally understand.
[01:02:49] >> And like just his body took a reaction.
[01:02:51] So why why did that like what is going
[01:02:53] on? How how has it become muscle memory
[01:02:55] that a gunshot which will probably
[01:02:59] scare some people or make them nervous
[01:03:01] or make them prep? This guy is just
[01:03:03] can't think of anything and just moving
[01:03:04] like this. That's because that that
[01:03:06] entire sequence has probably been
[01:03:08] practiced in his mind over and over and
[01:03:12] over again. It's the same with someone
[01:03:14] like a concert pianist which is if
[01:03:16] you're hearing so I'll give you this is
[01:03:19] a good example because a concert pianist
[01:03:21] is actually a good way of so you know
[01:03:23] when you move your fingers in a
[01:03:24] particular way those individual fingers
[01:03:27] have representations in the brain and so
[01:03:29] that part of the brain is getting active
[01:03:30] as you're moving that finger and even
[01:03:32] before you move the finger there's
[01:03:34] something called the preoter which is
[01:03:35] before the sequence starts you imagine
[01:03:38] it and you start playing it now let's
[01:03:41] say I'm a concert pianist and you are
[01:03:43] playing the same sequence. I'm not even
[01:03:45] moving my fingers. I'm listening in the
[01:03:47] audience. I'm playing out the whole
[01:03:49] sequence in my preoter cortex because I
[01:03:52] know how the sequence will be played. I
[01:03:55] have practiced it so much that you're
[01:03:57] playing the music even before you hit
[01:03:59] the key will activate my brain to start
[01:04:02] producing the exact same sequence. And
[01:04:04] this is something called mirror neurons.
[01:04:06] We have the capability of imagining
[01:04:09] another's actions and before they
[01:04:12] perform the action we predict what
[01:04:14] they're going to do. So this is the
[01:04:16] prediction system that we have which is
[01:04:18] rather unique and special to primates.
[01:04:21] >> So primates tend to have this mirror
[01:04:23] neuron system really developed where we
[01:04:25] actually predict the other's action
[01:04:28] which helps you right it's a shortcut.
[01:04:29] Let's say you are sitting
[01:04:40] what you're going to do. And that's what
[01:04:41] we're doing in all social interactions.
[01:04:44] >> Yeah.
[01:04:44] >> We're mimicking the other person's
[01:04:47] potential action by imagining what they
[01:04:49] likely will do. And we tend to do this
[01:04:52] better with those whom we understand
[01:04:54] better. So you're Indian. I'm Indian. We
[01:04:56] have a common shared shared vocabulary
[01:04:59] of an understanding of our country, our
[01:05:01] culture. So it's an ease. Let's say you
[01:05:03] stick me with someone from like
[01:05:05] Indonesia and they don't speak English
[01:05:08] or they don't speak Hindi or they don't
[01:05:09] speak whatever common we will struggle
[01:05:11] initially because our ability to predict
[01:05:13] the other person's actions has gone cuz
[01:05:15] cultural context has moved away.
[01:05:18] >> This is why we find it easier to hang
[01:05:20] out with our own. M
[01:05:22] >> the problem with that is it also comes
[01:05:24] with a negative of that which is that we
[01:05:26] have an implicit bias to preferring
[01:05:28] people who sound like us look like us
[01:05:31] behave like us and we find it harder to
[01:05:34] deal with individuals who don't sound at
[01:05:36] all like us who behave very differently
[01:05:38] from us and that sometimes can create a
[01:05:40] bias
[01:05:42] >> interesting I'll tell you three
[01:05:43] processes okay of ultra high achievers
[01:05:46] tell me what's going on in their brain
[01:05:48] because all three of them have won
[01:05:50] >> tremendously thousands of times in their
[01:05:52] life. Okay. One is Michael Jordan,
[01:05:54] >> one is Michael Phelps and the third is
[01:05:56] Napoleon.
[01:05:57] >> Okay. All three they have different
[01:05:59] process because
[01:06:00] >> you said that things that we experience
[01:06:03] and things that we do
[01:06:06] >> they either become procedure memory or
[01:06:08] explicit memory and when they when we
[01:06:10] keep repeating it again again the
[01:06:12] stories in our brain again again it ends
[01:06:14] up becoming a very strong memory. Right?
[01:06:17] That's how
[01:06:17] >> we end up winning or losing in some
[01:06:20] sort. Okay. performing that affects our
[01:06:22] ability to perform a task.
[01:06:24] >> Yeah. So all three people. So Michael
[01:06:26] Jordan what he does he would imagine in
[01:06:30] his brain throwing a basket. Right. So
[01:06:33] he he says this that everything in life
[01:06:35] happens twice. One inside your brain and
[01:06:37] then in reality. So it has already
[01:06:39] happened in your so he would practice
[01:06:41] the whole match.
[01:06:42] >> Yeah.
[01:06:43] >> That I'm throwing this. He would
[01:06:44] visualize it. Right. So that's one
[01:06:46] process.
[01:06:47] >> Second is Michael Phelps. what he used
[01:06:50] to do for years since the time he
[01:06:53] started training till he actually ended
[01:06:55] up winning almost every race in the
[01:06:57] world right every night before sleeping
[01:07:01] he used to see himself winning
[01:07:04] >> not the process so Michael Jordan is
[01:07:05] looking at process I'm getting the pass
[01:07:07] from here I'm doing this Phelps is only
[01:07:10] seeing himself winning
[01:07:12] >> like this is what I've won
[01:07:14] >> after winning I've done this after like
[01:07:16] right before winning I'm like my this is
[01:07:18] how my water is and he would see himself
[01:07:20] winning in different situations like
[01:07:22] >> if my water broke like if my goggles
[01:07:26] broke and water got in how do I win
[01:07:29] >> if let's say I get stuck if my latest
[01:07:31] like start is late I'm a win it's just
[01:07:33] winning
[01:07:34] >> and the third process is Napoleon before
[01:07:37] every big battle he would sit down and
[01:07:40] he would imagine himself losing
[01:07:43] >> that what are the ways that I can die
[01:07:45] today
[01:07:46] >> yeah it's a survival
[01:07:47] >> right It's a it's it's a thing that
[01:07:50] >> so he would just see himself dying from
[01:07:52] all the ways and that's why he will
[01:07:53] never die
[01:07:55] >> like he would win almost because he is
[01:07:57] eliminated in his head these are the
[01:07:59] maybe 23 ways today I'm going to die
[01:08:01] >> and I won't
[01:08:02] >> protect myself
[01:08:03] >> I'm going to protect from those 23
[01:08:04] >> all three different ways all three are
[01:08:07] somehow actually practicing memory in
[01:08:09] your head
[01:08:10] >> to end up winning what is going on in
[01:08:12] their brains is it all three different
[01:08:14] things they're activating different
[01:08:16] things or same
[01:08:17] >> likely activating different things. The
[01:08:19] one that you could the first example of
[01:08:20] Michael Jordan, he's activating every
[01:08:24] single circuit of practice,
[01:08:26] >> either the real practice or the created
[01:08:28] practice in his nervous system. So, he's
[01:08:30] highly process driven. It's like, I'm
[01:08:32] going to remember how it feels to shoot
[01:08:34] the three-pointer, etc. How am I going
[01:08:36] to do this over and over and over again?
[01:08:38] And clearly, the love of the game is
[01:08:40] obvious in him. He has inspired multiple
[01:08:41] people to fall in love with the game as
[01:08:43] well, right? So, I think that is very
[01:08:45] processoriented. Michael Phelps has also
[01:08:47] got insane bodily advantages that span I
[01:08:50] mean there's a reason he was the
[01:08:51] albatross. There's a there's the span
[01:08:53] itself. So there's a physical advantage
[01:08:55] but it's interesting that he's imagining
[01:08:57] the so it's almost like a positive
[01:08:59] reinforcement. His goal is that I want
[01:09:01] to win that race and he's reinforcing
[01:09:04] that positivity in him over and over
[01:09:06] again but clearly not simultaneously
[01:09:09] saying that if I don't win this I give
[01:09:11] up. That doesn't seem to be part of the
[01:09:13] dialogue. It's I'm going after this and
[01:09:15] I'm going to go after this no matter
[01:09:16] what the circumstance. My goggles break,
[01:09:19] you know, something isn't working
[01:09:20] perfectly, I'm still going to give it
[01:09:22] everything I've got.
[01:09:23] >> So the thought of losing doesn't occur.
[01:09:25] What is going on is
[01:09:26] >> absolutely. So in a sense he's just
[01:09:29] ideating the outcome for himself, right?
[01:09:31] This is like I'm convinced I'm going to
[01:09:32] do this. Largely it turned out to be
[01:09:35] correct. I mean someone can ideate this
[01:09:36] and it may not work out because they
[01:09:38] have not done the work. It's also
[01:09:39] Michael Ferris, right? I mean I could
[01:09:41] sit here and say I also want to win the
[01:09:43] Olympics but if I get to the pool I will
[01:09:45] not even cross the so that that's there
[01:09:47] there is a realistic element to it his
[01:09:50] ideation it's not just a pipe dream it's
[01:09:52] someone who's performing at the top of
[01:09:54] their game and then he's saying I'm
[01:09:55] going to ideate the best outcome
[01:09:57] possible so that's very realistically
[01:09:59] based it's not a it's not a total pipe
[01:10:04] dream but human beings have done this
[01:10:06] over and over again I mean there are
[01:10:08] examples of saying I want to go to the
[01:10:09] moon. We wouldn't have believed we could
[01:10:11] have gone to the moon or gone to the
[01:10:13] other side of the moon and even seen
[01:10:14] anything. And we've done that right as a
[01:10:16] species. So clearly pushing yourself
[01:10:19] that it is possible to do what feels
[01:10:21] like the impossible
[01:10:23] >> is one way of motivating yourself to get
[01:10:25] to that goal. In the case of Napoleon, I
[01:10:27] think he's
[01:10:29] based on this description would be
[01:10:31] performing out of fear.
[01:10:33] >> It's a how do I survive? And those were
[01:10:36] survival circumstances. If you don't
[01:10:37] have that instinct, you are going to be
[01:10:39] dead on a battlefield, especially a
[01:10:41] battlefield unlike the ones of today and
[01:10:43] of that era. So I think that's operating
[01:10:46] out of of a fear mentality. And
[01:10:48] certainly every description of him in
[01:10:50] history indicates that it was a man who
[01:10:52] was who would use every possible
[01:10:55] manipulative tool available to him in
[01:10:57] his arsenal to ensure that he survives.
[01:11:00] >> Right? So it was one who was a
[01:11:02] pragmatist almost in a sense. Right? How
[01:11:05] do I not be the one who's taken out on
[01:11:08] this battlefield? It's that approach.
[01:11:11] >> They're very different. I don't think
[01:11:12] the first two are operating from fear.
[01:11:14] The last one, I think, is operating from
[01:11:16] fear, but is still successful despite
[01:11:18] that because of the kind of situation
[01:11:20] it's in.
[01:11:21] >> But which one is the one that gets the
[01:11:23] sustained admiration is also interesting
[01:11:25] from our species.
[01:11:27] It's also interesting, right?
[01:11:29] >> No one. After 50 years, no one.
[01:11:30] >> After 50 years, no one. But Napoleon is
[01:11:32] more than 50 years. Hm.
[01:11:34] >> So it's interesting because
[01:11:35] >> No, it's also because they had influence
[01:11:37] on writings. These guys don't have an
[01:11:39] influence on writings. So we can't
[01:11:40] >> History is always written by the
[01:11:42] winners. That's always unfortunately the
[01:11:44] case. History is also written by
[01:11:46] dominant voices.
[01:11:48] >> You know, culturally it's always been
[01:11:49] written by dominant voices.
[01:11:51] >> So So one is operating out of process,
[01:11:54] one is operated operating out of
[01:11:57] ideiating
[01:11:58] a situation for himself and one is out
[01:12:01] operating out of fear. Mhm.
[01:12:03] >> Are they operating from different parts
[01:12:05] of their brain?
[01:12:06] >> Likely
[01:12:07] >> what what is activating in in case of
[01:12:09] Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps and
[01:12:10] Napoleon?
[01:12:11] >> So I I would imagine that in the
[01:12:12] procedural situation, you're activating
[01:12:15] the circuits that control that action.
[01:12:17] Let's say you're imagining a
[01:12:18] three-pointer over and over and over
[01:12:20] again. You have a sequence, a muscle
[01:12:22] sequence that gets activated, your motor
[01:12:24] cortex gets activated, then your spinal
[01:12:25] column, then you have to get your
[01:12:27] position of your body just right. And
[01:12:29] you've practiced it so many times that
[01:12:31] you can probably think that sequence out
[01:12:34] without doing it. And if you keep
[01:12:36] activating that and then you practice it
[01:12:38] multiple times, it is eventually when
[01:12:40] you are in that situation, it's almost
[01:12:42] automatic. It feels almost automatic. So
[01:12:46] you're actually driving probably the
[01:12:48] procedural memories I was telling you.
[01:12:50] >> So is it like
[01:12:51] >> it's
[01:12:53] this part of the brain. So there is a in
[01:12:55] this it is invisible but there's a
[01:12:57] region here which underneath this. So
[01:12:59] like if you were you're now cutting
[01:13:00] through half the brain like this
[01:13:02] underneath this there's a region called
[01:13:03] the strriatum.
[01:13:05] >> The striatum and the basil ganglia
[01:13:07] circuitry are what do the procedural
[01:13:09] learning that's the circuit that's
[01:13:10] activated in
[01:13:12] >> Michael Jordan's brain when he's doing
[01:13:14] that. Yeah. And that activates a
[01:13:16] cerebral cortex preoter and motor from
[01:13:19] the motor cortex. It goes all the way
[01:13:21] down through the spinal column all the
[01:13:23] way to the muscles of his arms and back
[01:13:25] eventually driving the release. Right?
[01:13:28] So it's that sequence and the sequence
[01:13:30] is multiple neurons connected with each
[01:13:33] other that get activated that now you're
[01:13:35] doing it without shooting the ball and
[01:13:36] you're doing it repeatedly
[01:13:38] >> over and over again.
[01:13:39] >> That's how eventually also you improve
[01:13:43] that circuit. So you can drive a circuit
[01:13:45] by thinking it through over and over
[01:13:47] again. And so in some sense that's also
[01:13:49] how you memorize something.
[01:13:51] >> That's also how you learn something over
[01:13:53] a period of time. So you can also do it
[01:13:55] for procedural memory as well. So just
[01:13:57] by thinking about it, he's actually
[01:13:59] getting better. Okay. And with Phelps,
[01:14:02] what is he activating?
[01:14:03] >> With Phelps, he's likely activating his
[01:14:06] prefrontal cortex to override negative
[01:14:10] outcomes. So his liyic cortex would say,
[01:14:12] "What the heck would happen if my
[01:14:13] goggles broke halfway through and I have
[01:14:15] water in my eyes?" Right? So now that's
[01:14:18] a negative outcome. he's activating
[01:14:21] probably the prefrontal cortex which
[01:14:23] would then say despite that negative
[01:14:25] outcome you are going to be able to do
[01:14:27] this. So you're driving circuits in the
[01:14:29] brain that are giving you control over
[01:14:32] the responses that would happen if an
[01:14:33] emergency should happen in the water.
[01:14:35] Let's say your goggles do break.
[01:14:36] Everybody else has goggles and they're
[01:14:38] they're getting to their goal. You now
[01:14:40] have to function with something that has
[01:14:41] given you a handicap in that situation.
[01:14:44] How do you not let that handicap become
[01:14:47] a serious handicap? So you've ideiated
[01:14:50] and imagined that handicap already
[01:14:52] before it occurs and you've allowed
[01:14:54] yourself to say if this were to happen
[01:14:56] this is how I will handle it. Right? So
[01:15:00] in some sense think about it like let's
[01:15:02] say you I mean like now let's think of a
[01:15:04] simple exam. Let's say you're going for
[01:15:05] an exam and you have an exam for which
[01:15:07] you've studied but you're now convinced
[01:15:10] yourself you'll forget everything you've
[01:15:11] studied and when you go into the room
[01:15:13] everything will come out of your brain
[01:15:14] and you will not be able to write a
[01:15:15] single word because you're so nervous.
[01:15:18] How do you prepare yourself for that
[01:15:20] possibility that you tell yourself that
[01:15:22] if that was to arise, how am I going to
[01:15:24] calm myself down so that I can at least
[01:15:27] handle one or two. So if you practice
[01:15:28] this to yourself, you would say in my
[01:15:30] entire paper, there'll be at least one
[01:15:31] question I can answer. I say 100 mark
[01:15:33] paper, I can't answer all 100. I'll find
[01:15:35] one question I can answer. Should I feel
[01:15:37] so nervous, I will find the one question
[01:15:39] I can answer and answer it. And you've
[01:15:41] prepared yourself before that situation
[01:15:43] to tackle that. Hopefully, then you say,
[01:15:46] okay, I answered one question. Maybe the
[01:15:48] second question I'll find in my 100
[01:15:49] which I can still answer. Even if I
[01:15:51] can't answer it very well, I can answer.
[01:15:53] That should have brought your calmness
[01:15:54] in enough that it will give you some
[01:15:57] room to tackle what would have been
[01:15:58] impossible otherwise. You've been
[01:16:00] paralyzed by the hardest question and
[01:16:01] not even attempted one. So it's in a
[01:16:04] sense preparing yourself for the worst
[01:16:06] possible outcome that I forgot
[01:16:08] everything. How will I handle such a
[01:16:10] situation? It's like when you go on
[01:16:12] stage and you have a fear of public
[01:16:14] speaking and a paralytic fear of public
[01:16:16] speaking. You will never be able to get
[01:16:18] over that unless somewhere you calm
[01:16:20] yourself by saying if I have to do this
[01:16:22] I will look at the one friendly face in
[01:16:24] the audience that is smiling back at me
[01:16:26] and I will talk like I'm having a
[01:16:27] conversation with that one person.
[01:16:28] Imagine the rest of the room there's
[01:16:30] nobody.
[01:16:31] >> So you tell yourself what you will do
[01:16:33] should that situation arise. And I think
[01:16:35] that is that is Michael Fel's strategy
[01:16:39] which is that should something go wrong
[01:16:41] this is how I'm going to handle it.
[01:16:42] >> So if in every brain in every human
[01:16:45] being largely there's a voice which is
[01:16:49] saying that you are going to win there's
[01:16:51] a voice which is saying this is not for
[01:16:53] you. You will up you will mess up. You
[01:16:55] will forget everything. And there's
[01:16:57] you're not born for it. Look at your
[01:16:59] situation. And there's this voice which
[01:17:00] is actually killing you down like the
[01:17:01] little voice right? So just by thinking
[01:17:05] about winning again and again with 20
[01:17:08] different bad situations in your brain
[01:17:11] >> can actually kill this voice.
[01:17:14] >> I think it can help control it. I don't
[01:17:17] think it can kill the voice. If that
[01:17:19] voice is there and it has been nurtured
[01:17:21] and believe me many people nurture the
[01:17:24] voice. Either you nurture it or other
[01:17:26] people in your life nurture that voice.
[01:17:28] which is to say that something isn't
[01:17:30] doable, something isn't possible, it's
[01:17:32] improbable, why are you even bothering
[01:17:34] to try so either you will do it or
[01:17:37] someone in your circle will do it. It
[01:17:40] may exist, but if you tell yourself that
[01:17:42] I'm going to give it the best possible
[01:17:44] shot that I can, then in principle you
[01:17:47] can control that voice. I don't think
[01:17:49] you can get rid of it completely because
[01:17:52] it's likely a little bit inherent and
[01:17:55] it's some of it is also survival. Like
[01:17:56] let's say tomorrow I want to climb Mount
[01:17:58] Everest but I'm scared of heights
[01:18:01] >> then I may not necessarily be the best
[01:18:03] person to climb Mount Everest. So it is
[01:18:05] also protecting me that that little
[01:18:07] voice is also telling me you know maybe
[01:18:09] this you just watch somebody climb Mount
[01:18:11] Everest and maybe you don't attempt to
[01:18:13] do it right this is not your cup of tea
[01:18:15] but it is also the same voice that's
[01:18:17] telling me don't take on this research
[01:18:19] problem because this is too difficult
[01:18:20] for you to ask and that then I have to
[01:18:23] silence
[01:18:24] >> because I that then harms my ability to
[01:18:27] ask that research question I want to
[01:18:29] push that boundary of knowledge I want
[01:18:31] to try that even if it's going to be
[01:18:33] possibly a failure here. I don't want to
[01:18:35] not try. I want to give it the shot that
[01:18:37] I have. Then I have to silence that
[01:18:39] voice. So that voice sometimes is
[01:18:42] protective and sometimes is saving you
[01:18:44] from doing something you shouldn't do
[01:18:45] and sometimes it's just a deterrent and
[01:18:48] it's not letting you move forward. So
[01:18:49] you have to have the ability to control
[01:18:51] it to that degree. Yeah.
[01:18:54] >> Interesting. And in the last case which
[01:18:56] was Napoleon's case,
[01:18:57] >> where is he operating from?
[01:18:58] >> I think he's operating from the
[01:19:00] amygdala. So there's the this is the
[01:19:02] hippocampus. Right in front of the
[01:19:04] hippocampus is this arament shaped
[01:19:06] structure called the amydala which is
[01:19:08] your fear threat safety emotion
[01:19:12] processing center. It's a vital center.
[01:19:15] Without this you don't survive because
[01:19:16] you won't
[01:19:17] >> fight or flight.
[01:19:18] >> Yeah. Absolute fight or flight. Like if
[01:19:19] if you're in a in the middle of some
[01:19:21] prairie and some lion comes to eat you
[01:19:24] up, you need to run and or hide, right?
[01:19:26] One of the two. So the amydala is vital
[01:19:28] for processing threats. It's also a
[01:19:30] structure that is critical for you to
[01:19:32] detect safety.
[01:19:34] It's not just a threat processing
[01:19:35] center. It also does safety detection,
[01:19:38] emotional detection, emotional veilance
[01:19:40] of memories, importance of memories. I
[01:19:43] think he's operating from there because
[01:19:45] using that he's saying I'm going to
[01:19:47] eliminate everything that might
[01:19:48] potentially
[01:19:50] allow me to not survive and I'm going to
[01:19:53] find all the safety things that are
[01:19:55] going to help me survive this. So it is
[01:19:58] operating from your lyic nervous system.
[01:20:00] this part of your what people like to
[01:20:02] call the reptilian brain but basically
[01:20:04] it's your survival processing emotion
[01:20:06] threat detection system which evolution
[01:20:09] has maintained in all mammals because
[01:20:11] without that you don't you don't live to
[01:20:13] tell the tale
[01:20:14] >> but then you also have been given this
[01:20:16] massive cerebral cortex which you can
[01:20:18] see the size of the cerebral cortex in
[01:20:20] the rat brain
[01:20:21] >> that was that smooth structure I showed
[01:20:23] you
[01:20:23] >> and you can see this huge cerebral
[01:20:26] cortex in the human what that has done
[01:20:28] is it's given you ability to do top-
[01:20:30] down control of all these circuits.
[01:20:32] That's your positive voice that's going
[01:20:34] to tell you, I'm not going to be a
[01:20:36] victim to this set of circumstances as
[01:20:38] well. It's the same circuit that's
[01:20:40] telling you 10 people told me I'm
[01:20:43] incapable of doing this. I'm going to
[01:20:44] tell myself I'm going to try,
[01:20:46] >> right? It's still that very circuit. So,
[01:20:48] this huge expansion has come with some
[01:20:50] massive benefits for us as a species.
[01:20:52] So, we should use it.
[01:20:54] >> You know, this is where poetry,
[01:20:55] philosophy, creativity,
[01:20:58] etc. emerges.
[01:20:59] >> So now explain me if somebody is
[01:21:02] watching this, okay, and they want to
[01:21:05] find out that what kind of winner they
[01:21:07] can be because in theory all three
[01:21:12] winners activated a different part of
[01:21:14] their brain and kept telling them that
[01:21:16] story based on probably their
[01:21:18] personality or their biology or the
[01:21:21] structure of their brain or social
[01:21:22] environment. Right.
[01:21:23] >> Right.
[01:21:24] >> How can I find out which one will work
[01:21:26] for me? I would say go for the most
[01:21:28] sustainable and the most sustainable is
[01:21:31] when you fall in love with doing
[01:21:32] something. You have to like what you do.
[01:21:35] That is the single most sustainable way
[01:21:39] of the long-term likelihood that you
[01:21:41] will achieve something.
[01:21:42] >> But can I find out?
[01:21:44] >> You can.
[01:21:45] >> Can I find out that do I love
[01:21:48] >> Yeah.
[01:21:50] Like like what do I mean? Like you know
[01:21:52] can I find out as an individual that do
[01:21:54] I love fighting my fears? Do I love
[01:21:59] being process driven because I love the
[01:22:01] process or do I just love being
[01:22:04] delusional about just winning because
[01:22:06] all three processes.
[01:22:08] I think you can figure it out if you
[01:22:10] watch your patterns of behavior and look
[01:22:13] back at what you did and what were your
[01:22:15] moments where you really felt that you
[01:22:18] got to some goal. Let's say you set some
[01:22:20] goal and you achieved it and over I mean
[01:22:22] a life of 20 30 years. You'll be able to
[01:22:24] figure out where that goal was achieved
[01:22:26] in a way that you felt hey I not only
[01:22:29] enjoyed the process I also loved the
[01:22:30] goal that I eventually got to and what
[01:22:32] was it that took me to getting there and
[01:22:34] what's the pattern of behavior I have
[01:22:37] used my suggestion is not to function
[01:22:40] from fear the last in my opinion is the
[01:22:43] worst of that those three examples
[01:22:45] you're going to get paranoid
[01:22:46] >> because you will just you will get to
[01:22:48] set goal but you will make you will fry
[01:22:50] your brain in the process and I'm not so
[01:22:52] sure that that's worth it because the
[01:22:54] cost of that eventually catch up and
[01:22:56] they tend to catch up as you age.
[01:22:58] Because if you continuously drive your
[01:23:00] fear circuit and your stress response
[01:23:02] pathways, you will eventually drive your
[01:23:05] brain towards a state which is not a
[01:23:07] very healthy state. The the Jordan and
[01:23:10] Phelps examples are far better examples
[01:23:13] because they're not operating from fear.
[01:23:15] They are different styles, no question
[01:23:17] about it, but they're not operating from
[01:23:18] fear. So I would say long-term sustained
[01:23:23] success cannot come from fear. This
[01:23:25] would be my general view that fear is
[01:23:28] not a good driver of that.
[01:23:30] >> Can you tell me like a framework or a
[01:23:32] question or an exercise for me and my
[01:23:35] viewers to ask ourselves right now so
[01:23:37] that we can find out at least largely or
[01:23:40] closely which process will work for us.
[01:23:42] >> Okay. I would first say find out what
[01:23:45] you thoroughly have enjoyed doing. Okay.
[01:23:48] first. So, first you have to find out
[01:23:49] what you really enjoy doing. And when
[01:23:51] you enjoy doing it, sometimes you um it
[01:23:54] leaves you feeling happy enough to want
[01:23:56] to share it with other people and to
[01:23:57] talk about it. Let's say you read
[01:23:59] something and you were so excited by it
[01:24:02] because you read it that you had to
[01:24:03] share it with three four people
[01:24:05] immediately and say, you know, I read
[01:24:06] something so interesting or I did
[01:24:08] something that was so interesting and I
[01:24:10] want to share it with people I care
[01:24:12] about. So that's one good way to start
[01:24:14] pinpointing at least five things that
[01:24:16] you really genuinely enjoy doing and
[01:24:19] sustainably can want to share it with
[01:24:21] other people.
[01:24:21] >> What do you love pontificating about?
[01:24:23] >> Pontificating is a good Yeah. I mean
[01:24:25] like I love pontificating about the
[01:24:27] brain. So clearly I love I love the
[01:24:28] brain. Right. Exactly. So you So this is
[01:24:30] it. You like like talking about
[01:24:32] something. So you find out what that is.
[01:24:34] Two,
[01:24:35] >> you find out
[01:24:37] you find out whether you're willing to
[01:24:39] do the work. That's the sustainability.
[01:24:43] >> Are you willing to do the work? Because
[01:24:45] you can enjoy something transiently, but
[01:24:47] if you're not willing to put in the
[01:24:48] effort, no, it's not going to sustain.
[01:24:51] It doesn't matter whether you're a
[01:24:52] Michael Phelps or you're a Michael
[01:24:54] Jordan. In both those cases, those
[01:24:56] examples do not work without a ton of
[01:24:58] effort. So effort and process is
[01:25:01] eventually the long-term way of
[01:25:04] sustained achievement. So I would say,
[01:25:07] are you willing to put in the work? What
[01:25:08] will you put in the work for? If you
[01:25:10] have to do this over and over again, day
[01:25:13] in and day out for hours at a time, will
[01:25:15] you be able to do this and will you be
[01:25:16] able to sustain it or are you going to
[01:25:18] get so bored and so put off that you're
[01:25:20] going to quit?
[01:25:21] >> That's the second question that you have
[01:25:23] to ask. And three, I think you have to
[01:25:26] ask that if you didn't get the outcome
[01:25:28] that you wanted, would the process have
[01:25:30] given you enough joy?
[01:25:32] M
[01:25:34] >> that's the hardest question to answer
[01:25:36] but that's the question that's worth
[01:25:38] answering
[01:25:39] >> because very difficult to answer
[01:25:40] >> it's a very difficult one but it's the
[01:25:42] one that will sustain you because the
[01:25:45] outcome is a byproduct the process is
[01:25:48] eventually what you have to do
[01:25:50] >> when you started did you know you were
[01:25:51] going to be successful
[01:25:53] >> I knew I would
[01:25:54] >> you knew you were su you knew you when
[01:25:56] your first podcast did you know you
[01:25:57] would be successful
[01:25:58] >> I'll make it perhaps
[01:25:59] >> because that's cuz you were convincing
[01:26:00] yourself but did you like the process
[01:26:02] independent of the outcome. Exactly. So
[01:26:03] that answers the question, right? You
[01:26:05] were happy to talk to all kinds of
[01:26:07] people over and over again because you
[01:26:09] enjoyed that process.
[01:26:11] >> It was
[01:26:12] >> the question I asked myself that if
[01:26:16] I knew that I will win and will be able
[01:26:19] to make something out of it. The
[01:26:21] question was if I'm not able to do it
[01:26:23] for 10 years, will I still be happy? And
[01:26:25] the answer was yes. So that's a great
[01:26:28] question because you just answered that
[01:26:30] question which was if I did the process
[01:26:31] for 10 years and at 10 year point I had
[01:26:33] still not hit the outcome I wanted I'd
[01:26:36] have been happy those 10 years was spent
[01:26:38] doing that because I enjoyed those 10
[01:26:40] years enough
[01:26:41] >> that that answers it that's precisely it
[01:26:44] can you if independent of the outcome
[01:26:46] will you be able to sustain what is
[01:26:48] required of the process if you are able
[01:26:50] to do that you'll do the hard work it'll
[01:26:52] also get to the goal because if you do
[01:26:53] this well enough eventually you'll get
[01:26:55] to the goal you eventually get to the
[01:26:57] goal. I think what happens is people
[01:26:59] become supremely outcome focused
[01:27:02] very quickly are not willing to do the
[01:27:05] process and want the results yesterday
[01:27:07] where yesterday I want to win yesterday
[01:27:11] but I'm not willing to do any of the
[01:27:12] work that is required to be Michael
[01:27:14] Jordan and Michael Felts you have to do
[01:27:17] a lot of work a lot of work you can't
[01:27:19] become just Michael Jordan Michael felt
[01:27:21] by saying today morning I'm going to
[01:27:23] wake up and I will be able to do that
[01:27:24] and I have to put in the work of course
[01:27:26] in those cases because you're looking at
[01:27:28] athletic ability there are skills that
[01:27:30] are required but in many things skills
[01:27:32] are required and you need the skills but
[01:27:34] without the process and without doing
[01:27:36] the work there is no
[01:27:37] >> no way fair okay so if you open up let's
[01:27:42] say a billionaire's brain of let's say I
[01:27:45] don't know Elon Musk okay
[01:27:47] >> and you open up a brain of a 25year-old
[01:27:52] or a 35year-old who's here
[01:27:55] at his home feeling stuck. It's like I'm
[01:27:59] not able to do something. I don't like
[01:28:00] my life. Will their brains be identical
[01:28:04] or different?
[01:28:05] >> So no brain is identical to any other
[01:28:08] brain. So let's start with that. Even if
[01:28:09] you take identical twins who have the
[01:28:12] same genetic makeup, their brains are
[01:28:14] not identical.
[01:28:15] >> Partly because your brain is continuing.
[01:28:21] Okay? Now I have all of these rooms one
[01:28:24] above each other. They're all identical
[01:28:25] in terms of the shape of the room.
[01:28:27] Everything is in the same place. But
[01:28:29] then I decorate each room completely
[01:28:31] differently. The interior decorators
[01:28:32] come in room. It doesn't look like each
[01:28:34] other. Even though the kitchen is always
[01:28:36] in the same place, the bathroom is in
[01:28:38] the same place, the bedroom is in the
[01:28:39] same. So if I look at your brain, my
[01:28:41] brain, Elon Musk's brain, anyone's
[01:28:43] brain, the prefrontal cortex is always
[01:28:46] here. It's not not going to be in this
[01:28:48] part. Your temporal loes are always
[01:28:49] going to be here. Your cerebilum is
[01:28:51] always going. So the locations will be
[01:28:53] the same but in the detail they will
[01:28:55] vary quite a bit because experience is
[01:28:59] educating the blueprint. So like the
[01:29:00] interior decorator is decorating the
[01:29:03] rooms differently. Life experiences are
[01:29:06] teaching the brain to readjust the way
[01:29:08] it looks in its detail. So the neurons
[01:29:11] dendrites the strength of the
[01:29:13] connections what pathway is particularly
[01:29:15] strong in one individual versus another
[01:29:17] is continuously being educated by life.
[01:29:20] >> Okay. No one lives the same life. Even
[01:29:23] two identical twins growing up in the
[01:29:25] same household don't live the same life
[01:29:26] because right from inutro when they're
[01:29:29] in their mother's tummy their
[01:29:31] nutritional access is not identical.
[01:29:33] >> Okay.
[01:29:34] >> So even though genetically they they're
[01:29:37] clones of each other
[01:29:38] >> they're not getting the same nutritional
[01:29:40] access. They will not have the same life
[01:29:42] experiences. So already there is that
[01:29:44] much difference. Okay. Right. So
[01:29:46] certainly from someone who is perhaps at
[01:29:48] the lowest point in their life where
[01:29:50] they feel they have no hope their brain
[01:29:53] is going to show certain structural
[01:29:55] changes that are associ es especially if
[01:29:57] they have a condition like major
[01:29:59] depression or anxiety or any of these
[01:30:01] there are some structural changes that
[01:30:03] are happening. There are biochemical
[01:30:04] changes happening in the brain. So there
[01:30:06] is a different neurochemistry in this
[01:30:07] brain from someone who is perhaps at the
[01:30:11] top end of their game where they're
[01:30:12] continuously challenging their nervous
[01:30:14] system etc.
[01:30:17] >> Also what histories of food you have
[01:30:18] eaten, what histories of drugs you've
[01:30:20] taken, what histories of life
[01:30:22] experiences you've had are going to
[01:30:24] change your brain. So it's not going to
[01:30:25] be identical. No.
[01:30:27] >> But you won't be able to tell like at
[01:30:29] the
[01:30:30] >> which one's a billionaire brain versus
[01:30:31] which one. But is it like some part of
[01:30:33] the brain will be bigger or smaller just
[01:30:36] because I get dopamine by winning sure
[01:30:40] winning or versus I get dopamine by just
[01:30:42] losing or maybe I don't get dopamine at
[01:30:45] all?
[01:30:45] >> No, it's not going to drastically vary
[01:30:47] unless there's for example I mean where
[01:30:49] the variation comes which is very
[01:30:50] visibly obvious is if you look at an
[01:30:52] addict's brain 101% you'll be able to
[01:30:54] tell that there is a history of
[01:30:56] addiction. If you look at an individual
[01:30:58] that has gone to severe trauma like a
[01:31:00] post-traumatic stress disorder, etc.
[01:31:02] There are physical architectural
[01:31:04] changes, volume shrinks, the hypocampus
[01:31:06] shows a shrinkage. So you can see that
[01:31:08] someone who has chonic alcoholism, yes,
[01:31:11] you can tell that that brain has had
[01:31:12] that kind of alcohol or cocaine or
[01:31:14] heroin abuse. There are clear obvious
[01:31:17] structural changes that I think you can
[01:31:19] make up. But in the detail of whether
[01:31:22] someone is terribly motivated versus
[01:31:24] not, you're not going to necessarily
[01:31:26] pick that up very easily from looking at
[01:31:29] just an MRI.
[01:31:30] >> Yeah, you may pick it up if you start
[01:31:32] looking at the intensity of specific
[01:31:34] receptors. So for example, people have
[01:31:37] done these studies in in animals that
[01:31:39] have a social dominance hierarchy. So
[01:31:41] there is the alpha at the top of the
[01:31:43] hierarchy. Then there are individuals at
[01:31:45] the lower end of the hierarchy. When you
[01:31:47] look at individuals on that hierarchy,
[01:31:49] their dopamine receptor and the stratum
[01:31:51] looks slightly different from each
[01:31:53] other. So yes, once you move to that
[01:31:56] level of detail, you might pick up
[01:31:58] subtle differences in the broad. No, but
[01:32:00] in subtlety, yes.
[01:32:02] >> Interesting. So explain me what is going
[01:32:05] on in someone's brain. Okay. when they
[01:32:10] are probably 25 or 35, okay? And every
[01:32:15] day they go do their work, they come
[01:32:17] back home and before bed they are
[01:32:20] feeling like something's missing.
[01:32:23] Is there some thing which is going wrong
[01:32:26] in my brain or is it like what's going
[01:32:28] on? Why do I feel like
[01:32:31] am I not living up to my potential? I'm
[01:32:34] stuck. I'm not living the life that I
[01:32:36] want to live or maybe there's something
[01:32:37] missing like I'm not enjoying that.
[01:32:40] >> That's a common feeling. It's not an
[01:32:42] unusual feeling. I mean, a lot of people
[01:32:44] feel um feel like they're stuck in a rut
[01:32:49] >> where this doesn't feel right. Now,
[01:32:51] let's take away the requirements of
[01:32:54] food, shelter, clothing for which when
[01:32:56] those are your essential requirements,
[01:32:57] you don't have the luxury to quit or
[01:33:00] luxury to switch gear sometimes, right?
[01:33:02] Sometimes those become so important that
[01:33:04] you don't have the chance to say I'm
[01:33:05] quitting this and doing something else.
[01:33:07] But if you repeatedly feel this way,
[01:33:10] >> you're feeling that you're stuck in a
[01:33:11] rut and this is not where you should be.
[01:33:14] Then it's probably your system telling
[01:33:16] you that this may not be the right fit,
[01:33:18] either the right fit of a job or the
[01:33:19] right fit of a situation or the right
[01:33:21] fit of a relationship even. It can be
[01:33:23] all of these situations that can make
[01:33:25] you feel like this doesn't feel right.
[01:33:27] Our body has any number of ways of
[01:33:30] telling us when we feel even when we are
[01:33:32] not feeling well your body has a way of
[01:33:33] telling you I'm my god so I'm going to
[01:33:35] catch a bug as in you already know
[01:33:37] you're feeling tired and you're going to
[01:33:38] fall sick
[01:33:39] >> so I think these are signals that your
[01:33:42] body gives you um some of them are worth
[01:33:44] responding to some of them are are not
[01:33:46] worth responding to let's say you have a
[01:33:48] situation where food on the table is
[01:33:49] vital you can or don't have the luxury
[01:33:50] of responding to this till the next day
[01:33:52] meal will not come so you have no choice
[01:33:54] in that moment these are you know it's
[01:33:57] it's like you can't philosophize when
[01:33:58] you're when you don't have the
[01:34:00] opportunity right so from that
[01:34:01] perspective let's put that aside but
[01:34:03] otherwise in a 25 35 year old who says
[01:34:06] let's say roti kapra macakan is largely
[01:34:08] sorted as in you will survive
[01:34:10] >> then this is a signal your body is
[01:34:12] telling you that this is not the right
[01:34:14] fit of something not being right
[01:34:16] >> because I I know so many individuals
[01:34:18] probably some of some of them watching
[01:34:20] right now is everything in their life is
[01:34:22] going great
[01:34:23] >> yes
[01:34:23] >> okay it's they have a great job or they
[01:34:26] have great work
[01:34:27] >> and they have great relationships like
[01:34:29] with their family. Everything's good.
[01:34:31] They're they're in shape. They go to
[01:34:32] exercise. Once they come back home, they
[01:34:36] still feel like there's something
[01:34:37] missing. Maybe they don't have a hobby.
[01:34:39] Maybe they don't have nice work or
[01:34:41] meaningful. I don't know. They'll find
[01:34:43] out some way to tell themselves that
[01:34:46] there is something missing. And it's a
[01:34:48] large field like there are in fact I
[01:34:51] would go ahead to an extent and tell you
[01:34:53] that
[01:34:55] in last one year if I've met 100 friends
[01:34:58] of mine 95 of them have been feeling
[01:35:02] this way and it has nothing to do with
[01:35:04] their achievement level.
[01:35:06] >> Yeah because like I said achievement is
[01:35:08] only going to fill this much of your
[01:35:11] >> but all 95 like how this entire
[01:35:13] generation is feeling. I'm surprised. I
[01:35:15] think part of it
[01:35:16] >> we can do this like right now outside
[01:35:18] and people will say that they're missing
[01:35:19] something.
[01:35:19] >> I totally get it. It's partly it's
[01:35:21] because the world that your generation
[01:35:25] occupies and I consider myself an older
[01:35:27] generation is a more complex social
[01:35:30] world. It's a way more complicated
[01:35:32] social universe than the one we had. Our
[01:35:34] worlds were narrower, smaller, easier to
[01:35:37] manage, easier to navigate, and there
[01:35:40] was much more room for heterogeneity. I
[01:35:42] like the word heterogeneity because all
[01:35:44] outcomes are possible. You could live
[01:35:46] life broadly and
[01:35:48] >> there was also a much more ability to
[01:35:50] make peace with one's circumstances and
[01:35:52] circumstances sometimes are in one's
[01:35:54] control, sometimes they're not in one's
[01:35:56] control. I think the present generation
[01:35:58] feels scales of pressure that are
[01:36:01] significantly harder than our generation
[01:36:04] felt. The see we are a mean we try to
[01:36:08] find meaning in our life or purpose in
[01:36:10] our life and if you don't feel meaning
[01:36:12] and you don't feel purpose and it comes
[01:36:14] from many different things but if you
[01:36:16] don't feel it that can create a massive
[01:36:18] sense of vacuum right and it's not
[01:36:22] obvious what is going to make meaning
[01:36:24] and what is going to make purpose it's
[01:36:25] very individual and for each person
[01:36:27] where their sense of meaning and purpose
[01:36:29] will come from is very very different
[01:36:31] one of my all-time favorite books is
[01:36:33] Victor Frankl's is a man's search for
[01:36:35] meaning. Alltime favorite, right?
[01:36:37] Because it tells you when everything is
[01:36:39] stripped away and that is literally what
[01:36:41] happened in the Holocaust for him.
[01:36:42] Everything was stripped away. Where do
[01:36:44] you find meaning when everything is
[01:36:46] gone? When everything has been removed.
[01:36:48] It's a very profound book. But in a
[01:36:50] sense, it's coming back to the deep
[01:36:52] existential questions that people like
[01:36:54] to shove underneath a carpet because
[01:36:57] life and its productivity will go on.
[01:36:59] But the existential questions as a
[01:37:00] species we have always grappled with and
[01:37:03] you can only shove them under the carpet
[01:37:05] to a certain degree and extent at some
[01:37:07] point they do come up
[01:37:10] >> and so it's like if the lack of meaning
[01:37:14] in the things that you do or I would
[01:37:17] rather say lack of intentional meaning
[01:37:20] in things that you do is causing you to
[01:37:24] feel that there's something missing.
[01:37:25] There's another thing which our
[01:37:28] generation does a lot and it's probably
[01:37:30] have become one of the biggest problems
[01:37:31] that we are going through at this point.
[01:37:33] Like right now every single person who's
[01:37:36] watching this
[01:37:39] must have checked their phone 20 times
[01:37:41] even during the conversation before
[01:37:44] after it also they're going to scroll
[01:37:46] through it maybe 225 times in the day
[01:37:49] and yet when they go to bed they're
[01:37:52] going to regret it. They're going to
[01:37:55] regret they scrolled. Yes. They're going
[01:37:57] to regret the fact that they had to
[01:37:59] check their phones probably 150 times a
[01:38:01] day and
[01:38:04] and they do do the same thing again
[01:38:06] tomorrow.
[01:38:06] >> Mhm.
[01:38:07] >> So tomorrow they'll say they'll tell
[01:38:08] themselves that
[01:38:09] >> I don't want to use my phone this much,
[01:38:11] but they'll end up using it again.
[01:38:13] >> And at night when they are with their
[01:38:15] phone, they're like, "Okay, tonight I'm
[01:38:17] not going to use it. 5 minutes in, 20
[01:38:19] minutes in, 30 minutes in." And then
[01:38:21] when they're putting it, they're still
[01:38:22] going to regret and they're going to
[01:38:23] feel sad about it. What's happening to
[01:38:26] my willpower that I tell myself that I'm
[01:38:29] going to put that phone and not touch it
[01:38:31] and yet I go there and touch it again
[01:38:33] and again.
[01:38:34] >> Is this something in my brain or
[01:38:36] willpower? Like what is going on?
[01:38:37] >> It's not even that. It's your habit
[01:38:38] formation. It's habits. Like our brain
[01:38:41] also forms habits. Habits are good. Some
[01:38:43] habits are very good. They're vital.
[01:38:45] >> Your brain is designed to form habits.
[01:38:47] it in fact many habits help you
[01:38:50] >> okay
[01:38:50] >> to get to whatever goal you want to
[01:38:53] >> but like I told you the habits also
[01:38:55] involve that same basil ganglia dopamine
[01:38:58] pathway circuit and it's the same
[01:39:00] circuit that's involved in habit
[01:39:02] formation the underlying part of that
[01:39:03] circuit is involved in addiction and
[01:39:05] motivation and reward okay so habits
[01:39:07] form many times because they're
[01:39:09] rewarding some of them are horrible like
[01:39:11] there are people who will take out one
[01:39:12] hair and pull it out while they're
[01:39:13] studying and then they end up with one
[01:39:15] bald patch in the middle of the head
[01:39:16] because they literally literally pulled
[01:39:17] out all the hair from that one spot, but
[01:39:19] it's a habit that they're finding hard
[01:39:21] to break. Much the same way
[01:39:25] is a habit
[01:39:26] >> and it's a reinforced habit because it's
[01:39:28] also giving you a dopamine hit, right?
[01:39:30] One, it gives you a social reward many
[01:39:34] times. It can also give you social
[01:39:35] punishment, but let's say the social
[01:39:37] reward is a larger fraction than the
[01:39:39] social punishment. Uh because you're
[01:39:42] getting that social reward of a sense of
[01:39:44] intimacy, a sense of connection to
[01:39:47] something. You're following someone. You
[01:39:49] have an intimate understanding of their
[01:39:51] lives which you should not have if you
[01:39:53] were not a part of their life
[01:39:54] >> because it's now publicly available.
[01:39:58] You follow, then you get interested,
[01:40:00] then you follow even more. Then you want
[01:40:01] to know even more. And then you have
[01:40:03] this illusion of intimacy that has now
[01:40:05] been created. It's also rewarding that
[01:40:08] same dopamine reward circuit, that same
[01:40:12] pathway. It's the same circuit that gets
[01:40:13] activated by gambling. So, it's not as
[01:40:15] though that pathway is only activated by
[01:40:17] alcohol, heroin, nicotine, and sugar.
[01:40:20] It's activated by gambling. It's also
[01:40:22] activated by this kind of inviterate
[01:40:25] addiction to social media, right? So,
[01:40:27] it's the same thing. And what do you say
[01:40:29] when you say this is the last time I'm
[01:40:31] going to smoke? It's the same breaking
[01:40:33] of a habit, right? Why do they always
[01:40:35] say once an addict always an addict or a
[01:40:38] recovering addict? They're saying that
[01:40:39] because you are a recovering addict.
[01:40:41] You're consciously breaking a habit. But
[01:40:43] it's not an easy habit to break. Much
[01:40:46] the same way this is also not an easy
[01:40:48] it's an easier habit than nicotine and
[01:40:50] alcohol. So let's be clear about that.
[01:40:51] It's an easier habit in some ways than
[01:40:53] gambling. And the number of people
[01:40:54] playing poker now with like large
[01:40:56] amounts of money is not small, right? So
[01:40:59] gambling is clearly an addiction. But
[01:41:01] social media while on the scale may not
[01:41:04] activate the circuit to the same extent
[01:41:06] is in the same family.
[01:41:08] >> Okay,
[01:41:08] >> it's in the so breaking that habit is
[01:41:10] hard.
[01:41:12] >> But what is the exact mechanism which is
[01:41:14] defeating my willpower because I want to
[01:41:16] quit. A lot of people say that they want
[01:41:18] to quit.
[01:41:19] >> It's the same thing that's defeating
[01:41:20] your willpower when you find it hard to
[01:41:22] quit smoking. It's the same thing that's
[01:41:23] defeating your willpower when you decide
[01:41:25] this is the last drink I have. Even
[01:41:26] though you're an alcoholic and you know
[01:41:28] it's ruining your liver, you still
[01:41:30] can't, right? It's not because it's a
[01:41:32] moral failing in your you have decided
[01:41:34] I'm not going to do this but that is
[01:41:37] hard to override the circuit. So let me
[01:41:39] put a
[01:41:39] >> and what is that?
[01:41:40] >> I'll give you a sense of it. So this
[01:41:42] pathway which goes from the VTA to the
[01:41:44] nucleus circumbance produces dopamine.
[01:41:46] Okay. So dopamine comes out from the VTA
[01:41:48] is dumped out on the nucleus. The level
[01:41:51] of dopamine that happens with a natural
[01:41:53] reward and I will give you food, sex,
[01:41:56] all social interaction are all natural
[01:41:59] rewards. they produce a certain amount
[01:42:00] of dopamine. This is the range where you
[01:42:02] will be with something like cocaine and
[01:42:04] heroin. This is the range you will be in
[01:42:05] with something with alcohol and nicotine
[01:42:07] and this is the range you will be with
[01:42:08] gambling itself. You're in a factor
[01:42:11] difference. Now once you get used to
[01:42:13] that level, this level ceases to be
[01:42:17] pleasurable in the same way because
[01:42:19] you're now gain has been adjusted to
[01:42:21] some extremely high level.
[01:42:23] This is one of the hard things it is to
[01:42:25] take yourself and wean yourself off
[01:42:27] that. And the relapse rates are very
[01:42:29] very high. Much the same way you can
[01:42:31] have a relapse rate for this also. You
[01:42:33] can say I'm going to block my phone for
[01:42:35] one week. I'll not touch it. You might
[01:42:37] get antsy and literally jittery and want
[01:42:40] to use your phone. You could try that.
[01:42:42] But then over a period of time, you will
[01:42:44] find yourself going back to it. You
[01:42:45] slide back into that old habit because
[01:42:48] it is providing a hit. It's providing a
[01:42:51] certain degree of a reward and in that
[01:42:54] sense it's pleasurable.
[01:42:56] So our brain would find it hard to give
[01:42:59] up repetitive activities that provide a
[01:43:02] certain degree of pleasure.
[01:43:04] >> You control that by using your cortices
[01:43:08] in particular your prefrontal cortex.
[01:43:10] It's this part of your brain that does
[01:43:12] the decision making that says I am not
[01:43:15] going to doom scroll in the middle of
[01:43:17] the night. That's the part of your
[01:43:19] circuit that's telling you I'm
[01:43:20] overriding this. Now, how well that
[01:43:23] circuit is working, how good. So, this
[01:43:25] is variable. Not every person is going
[01:43:27] to be like impossible to break the
[01:43:29] habit.
[01:43:30] >> But unless you train that circuit early
[01:43:32] on to postpone gratification,
[01:43:36] >> to postpone e fast and quick rewards,
[01:43:39] continuous addiction to fast and quick
[01:43:41] rewards.
[01:43:43] It's going to be hard to be able to
[01:43:44] postpone gratification. There was a
[01:43:46] reason why in the old days they made you
[01:43:48] do certain exercises of postponing
[01:43:51] gratification.
[01:43:53] Fasting for example, not an easy thing
[01:43:55] for most people to do.
[01:43:56] >> Yeah,
[01:43:56] >> not an easy thing. If you have to fast
[01:43:58] for 24 hours is not an easy thing.
[01:44:00] You'll thirst, hunger, ABCD
[01:44:03] requirements, right? But when you fast
[01:44:06] for a few hours, it's more not about the
[01:44:08] fasting. It's more about do you have the
[01:44:10] mental willpower to do that fast? It's
[01:44:13] training your brain. You're just
[01:44:15] training your brain to say I can go
[01:44:16] without food for the next 12 hours. And
[01:44:19] most cases in 12 hours unless you have a
[01:44:21] serious underlying health condition, 12
[01:44:23] hours of fasting is not it's doable,
[01:44:25] right? It's doable.
[01:44:27] >> It was a training exercise for the brain
[01:44:30] in a sense.
[01:44:31] >> We don't have too many training
[01:44:33] exercises for the brain that allow us to
[01:44:35] postpone gratification.
[01:44:38] So it's like a muscle that you need to
[01:44:41] grow in a sense. When you go to the gym
[01:44:43] and do an exercise, you're growing a
[01:44:45] muscle. Much the same way, if you're
[01:44:46] training your brain to do certain
[01:44:48] things, you need to do them repeatedly.
[01:44:50] >> So tell me top three exercises which I
[01:44:53] can do to improve my willpower.
[01:44:57] I think one of the things that you can
[01:44:59] do is tell yourself that there will you
[01:45:01] take a task and if that task is has a
[01:45:04] little bit of a challenge and it
[01:45:05] requires you to complete it and I give
[01:45:07] you a challenge which is a hard one like
[01:45:09] one of the challenges for the brain
[01:45:11] which is hard to do is learning a new
[01:45:12] language
[01:45:14] >> most people will quit
[01:45:16] very quickly because it's a hard ask
[01:45:19] >> been there done that
[01:45:20] >> very hard to learn a new language but
[01:45:22] it's a skill set that will demand a
[01:45:25] certain amount ount of discipline from
[01:45:26] your brain. The second one is learning a
[01:45:28] new instrument like learning a musical
[01:45:30] instrument. Again, hard ask because you
[01:45:33] will suck at it in the beginning. You
[01:45:35] will not produce anything. It'll sound
[01:45:36] like a you know a cat that is being
[01:45:38] killed or something. But if you do this
[01:45:40] repeatedly, it builds. So it's
[01:45:42] essentially discipline requiring
[01:45:44] activities that are the things that help
[01:45:47] with will talk. Things that force you to
[01:45:50] do something which you don't really love
[01:45:51] to do but you're doing it to get to a
[01:45:53] certain goal are great ways of driving
[01:45:57] up your willpower because they're
[01:45:59] basically m teaching you the discipline
[01:46:00] of postponing gratification. You're not
[01:46:02] going to get a reward right away. You're
[01:46:04] still doing it, right? You're still
[01:46:05] telling yourself I will go and study for
[01:46:06] that one hour, learn the language, do
[01:46:09] whatever it is. But it's pushing your
[01:46:11] brain to be more plastic. Willpower is
[01:46:14] what it's essentially saying. Can I
[01:46:15] override a circuit that is so dependent
[01:46:19] on this cue by using surely my mind to
[01:46:22] say I'm not going to do this?
[01:46:25] >> But is there any other one more exercise
[01:46:27] which can be like easier thing to do?
[01:46:30] >> Okay. So not learning a new
[01:46:32] >> language,
[01:46:32] >> language, learning a new instrument that
[01:46:34] can be two. That's the third.
[01:46:36] >> I think learning anything new which is
[01:46:38] hard for you. M
[01:46:40] >> it needs hard.
[01:46:41] >> It cannot be easy
[01:46:43] >> because this is not easy. No.
[01:46:45] >> So you're training your brain to take on
[01:46:47] harder tasks, tasks that require a
[01:46:50] little bit of a demand. In any case,
[01:46:53] that is singularly the best thing you
[01:46:55] can do for your brain. Pushing your
[01:46:57] brain to learn new things and try new
[01:46:59] things is the best way we know currently
[01:47:02] of getting the brain to work much more
[01:47:05] optimally. And also that helps
[01:47:07] significantly with the aging associated
[01:47:10] degenerative changes that kick in post
[01:47:13] 3540 right everything is going into
[01:47:16] decline after that. So the best way we
[01:47:19] know currently from everything that we
[01:47:21] understand is using our brain for harder
[01:47:23] tasks not for simple tasks.
[01:47:25] >> Interesting. So
[01:47:28] would you say because so I read I have
[01:47:30] this habit that
[01:47:33] even if I'm not reading or learning
[01:47:36] something today which I mostly make up a
[01:47:38] point that at least 30 minutes or 1 hour
[01:47:40] I I'll read something or learn something
[01:47:42] new but on the days when I'm absolutely
[01:47:44] tired or not feeling like I'll make a
[01:47:48] point that I will at least learn one new
[01:47:50] word. So I have this dictionary right
[01:47:51] next to my bed and I'll open randomly
[01:47:54] and read some word like I will make it a
[01:47:56] point. So does that does doing that on
[01:47:59] an everyday basis actually is improving
[01:48:01] my willpower just that
[01:48:03] >> yeah because it's an ask and it's a task
[01:48:05] and you've set yourself that and you
[01:48:07] telling your whole
[01:48:08] >> but it's just one word
[01:48:08] >> but you're holding yourself accountable.
[01:48:10] >> It's the accountability also right it's
[01:48:13] if it's it is one word now the thing is
[01:48:15] if you learn that one word and never use
[01:48:16] it ever again in your life then it's not
[01:48:18] much value. But you learn a word and
[01:48:20] then you say, "How do I employ that word
[01:48:22] in my vocabulary? How do I utilize this?
[01:48:24] How do I put this into usage when you're
[01:48:27] using that word and that actually is is
[01:48:30] an ask? It's a smaller ask than learning
[01:48:32] a language or whatever. But it's a good
[01:48:35] ask. Every every building block step is
[01:48:38] a way in that direction. It's it's like
[01:48:41] if you had to play some game on on, you
[01:48:45] know, on your phone. Sudoku is a good
[01:48:47] game to play for a reason because it
[01:48:49] requires you to do a little bit of
[01:48:51] analytic thought right there. Crosswords
[01:48:54] are great ways to stretch your brain a
[01:48:56] little bit. So there are there's no
[01:48:58] question there are games on things which
[01:49:00] are going to push you a little bit more
[01:49:02] than Candy Crush, right? So no harm. If
[01:49:06] you're going to have to be on that
[01:49:08] object, then pick something that
[01:49:09] stretches
[01:49:11] >> a little bit, right? There's this app
[01:49:13] that was actually set up by these guys
[01:49:15] at um in California a bunch of
[01:49:17] neuroscientists called Lumosity but they
[01:49:19] did it for this reason to see that okay
[01:49:21] now if people are anywhere going to be
[01:49:22] on their phone right now you can't stop
[01:49:24] them then on the phone can we give them
[01:49:26] something that is like a neuroscience
[01:49:28] gaming ask which forces your brain to
[01:49:31] utilize things like set shifting you
[01:49:35] know rapid rapid quick adjustment of the
[01:49:38] brain which is a training exercise. Can
[01:49:41] you put the brain through this? If
[01:49:43] nothing else, at least you will push
[01:49:44] your brain to being slightly more
[01:49:46] effective at certain tasks.
[01:49:48] >> Interesting. What's the name of that?
[01:49:49] >> It's called Lumosity.
[01:49:50] >> Lumosity.
[01:49:50] >> It was generated by a bunch of
[01:49:52] neuroscientists. But they did this for
[01:49:54] this reason because like people are
[01:49:55] anyway on their phone. We are not going
[01:49:56] to be able to get them to a book or you
[01:49:58] know out into nature very easily.
[01:50:01] >> If they're there, how do we utilize this
[01:50:03] time?
[01:50:03] >> Yeah. I found out about these concepts
[01:50:07] like couple of years ago. The concept
[01:50:09] called neurobics. Mhm.
[01:50:11] >> And I found it very fascinating just
[01:50:13] like doing little things.
[01:50:15] >> Exercising your brain.
[01:50:16] >> Exactly. Like just doing little things
[01:50:18] which are not my general way of doing
[01:50:20] things. It's
[01:50:21] >> it's great. Like I think it's been 2
[01:50:23] years that now I've been doing like so
[01:50:26] morning I do brush with my right. I'm
[01:50:28] right-handed. Evening I do it like from
[01:50:30] the left hand. Then now I was like I
[01:50:32] want to add another layer.
[01:50:34] >> So in my 45 minute of walking, 10
[01:50:37] minutes I do back walk. That's actually
[01:50:39] very interesting.
[01:50:40] >> So like I try to find some way
[01:50:41] >> totally different muscle set than you're
[01:50:43] used to when you walk forward compared
[01:50:45] to what you use when you're walking
[01:50:46] backward.
[01:50:48] >> So yeah, I mean it's it's certain. So
[01:50:49] that's procedural, right? So now you'd
[01:50:51] be using a set of of pathways that are
[01:50:54] involved in procedural learning, but
[01:50:55] you're doing it in a very different way
[01:50:57] and it's training definitely different
[01:50:59] circuits in your body. M
[01:51:00] >> so there's the brain like I said is an
[01:51:04] experience incorporating organ what you
[01:51:07] so garbage in is garbage out
[01:51:09] >> there is a reason why we often use that
[01:51:12] term like if you are really feeding your
[01:51:14] brain with just absolute nonsense then
[01:51:17] over time you should not be surprised if
[01:51:19] the what emerges out is not of very high
[01:51:22] caliber
[01:51:23] >> it's an opportunity that's not to say
[01:51:24] that isn't there isn't room for absolute
[01:51:26] relaxation and whatever there is but
[01:51:29] there is room also So for trying to do
[01:51:31] things which really do enrich your
[01:51:34] brain, there is room and and it is true.
[01:51:36] You're using the term neurobix, but
[01:51:38] basically that's what it is. You're
[01:51:39] using exercises
[01:51:41] that stimulate your brain
[01:51:43] >> and cause it to expand beyond its normal
[01:51:46] working range.
[01:51:48] >> So the more you do it, the better you'll
[01:51:50] get with controlling
[01:51:52] >> and the more control you have, the
[01:51:53] better willpower you will have.
[01:51:54] >> Yeah. And I think doing harder things is
[01:51:57] the way to do it. Too easy doesn't
[01:52:01] really give you
[01:52:02] >> I agree.
[01:52:03] >> Yeah. The hard things are the ones that
[01:52:05] push you to say do I can I really now
[01:52:07] push my push my limits a little.
[01:52:09] >> Yeah. Like I had severe phone re
[01:52:13] addiction
[01:52:14] >> like or not even forget re like just
[01:52:16] checking notification. there's some even
[01:52:18] if there's no notification I'll check up
[01:52:20] like 50 times to see if there's
[01:52:21] notification or no
[01:52:23] >> and I think one thing which definitely
[01:52:25] helps because here I don't have any
[01:52:26] phone
[01:52:27] >> so I just switch it off
[01:52:29] >> but then I found out that after the
[01:52:31] podcast or before the podcast I would
[01:52:33] like constantly be on my phone
[01:52:35] >> so I stopped I started engaging that on
[01:52:38] my activities which I do every day
[01:52:41] during those activities I won't use my
[01:52:43] phone and like slowly now it has become
[01:52:46] like
[01:52:46] >> I don't You're setting up setting up
[01:52:48] rules. Exactly. Like my environment is
[01:52:50] setting up.
[01:52:51] >> Like the moment I enter gym,
[01:52:53] >> I used to be on my phone like all the
[01:52:54] time, even in the gym. Now my phone is
[01:52:56] with my trainer. He doesn't give me
[01:52:58] until the session gets over.
[01:52:59] >> See, see this is this is good because
[01:53:01] you're creating rules, but then you have
[01:53:03] to follow said rules, right? So that's
[01:53:04] what it is. And sometimes people don't
[01:53:06] follow rules. You can follow rules and
[01:53:08] reward yourself. There that's another
[01:53:09] way of like getting yourself over that
[01:53:12] initial hump. You set a rule and you say
[01:53:14] if I have achieved the rule today then I
[01:53:16] have room for a specific reward. Of
[01:53:18] course your reward can't be some
[01:53:19] crackpot like 20 hours of scrolling. It
[01:53:21] has to be nothing to do with the thing
[01:53:23] that you're trying to fix. But it can be
[01:53:24] something very specific. It could be
[01:53:26] like I will buy myself a new book. I
[01:53:29] will buy myself something something that
[01:53:31] you want as a little reward for yourself
[01:53:33] for having followed that rule in the
[01:53:36] beginning. Over time the rules will
[01:53:38] become easier to follow and then you
[01:53:40] just get better at. So just environment
[01:53:43] and rules. Okay, there's there's another
[01:53:46] thing. Okay, because we're talking about
[01:53:48] phone scrolling. There's one more thing
[01:53:51] which is very interesting for me to
[01:53:52] understand is the word which is now I'm
[01:53:56] going to say is very loosely used these
[01:53:59] days. It's called anxiety,
[01:54:01] >> right? It's like
[01:54:05] >> everybody
[01:54:06] there are two people there two types of
[01:54:08] people. Okay. So one is like everybody
[01:54:11] has anxiety no matter what they're going
[01:54:13] through they they say that they have
[01:54:14] anxiety and then there's another set of
[01:54:17] people who like oh it's just in your
[01:54:18] head
[01:54:18] >> correct
[01:54:19] >> you know so dismissive of it
[01:54:20] >> yeah so one is dismissive of it other is
[01:54:24] fulltime every emotion is anxiety so
[01:54:26] there are two completely different
[01:54:27] people now it's it has become polarized
[01:54:29] situation
[01:54:30] >> so explain me simply like
[01:54:33] >> what is anxiety and what is anxiety
[01:54:35] attack where in body is anxiety what do
[01:54:37] I go through And what is not anxiety?
[01:54:40] >> Right? So
[01:54:42] anxiety, so there's fear, right? Which
[01:54:45] is the underlying basis eventually for
[01:54:48] why people develop anxiety. Fear is an
[01:54:50] essential emotion for any species. It
[01:54:53] teaches you how to survive. It's like
[01:54:55] the very basic thing of knowing that
[01:54:57] when you go into a park and there
[01:54:59] happens to be a tiger loose, you should
[01:55:01] not be wandering around otherwise you
[01:55:03] will be tiger, you know, whatever meal
[01:55:04] of the tiger. So that fear is a genuine
[01:55:08] fear in response to some survival
[01:55:10] evoking threat. Anxiety is when there is
[01:55:13] no obvious threat. You can't see a
[01:55:15] threat. Nobody else can see a threat.
[01:55:18] Your body is responding like there is a
[01:55:20] tiger.
[01:55:21] >> Okay? So in this room right now, there
[01:55:23] is no tiger. So you and I should not be
[01:55:25] having a full-fledged fear response. But
[01:55:28] if we are anxious, we respond in the
[01:55:32] same way we would if there was a real
[01:55:34] big threat in the room. Right? Which
[01:55:36] means what? My palms will sweat. So I
[01:55:38] get a galvanic stress response. My mouth
[01:55:42] will dry. So all the saliva will drive
[01:55:44] up. My sympathetic nervous system
[01:55:46] increases which means my heart rate goes
[01:55:48] up. So I can clearly see a shift in my
[01:55:50] pulse rate. So it's going up. I can feel
[01:55:52] palpitations. Sometimes this is a milder
[01:55:55] end of things. But your body is
[01:55:56] responding like there is an immediate
[01:55:58] threat. So your threat perception system
[01:56:01] and your threat response system is
[01:56:03] responding inappropriately to the cues.
[01:56:07] >> That system is vital for your survival.
[01:56:10] You don't have it, you don't survive.
[01:56:12] >> But now there is no need for me to freak
[01:56:14] out in this room. There is no tiger. Why
[01:56:16] am I responding this way? It's because
[01:56:18] my body perceives threats which are not
[01:56:21] overtly obvious to anyone else. But for
[01:56:23] my body, it feels like a complete
[01:56:25] threat. So when a person says, "I'm
[01:56:28] feeling anxious."
[01:56:30] They're feeling anxious about some event
[01:56:33] or something which you or I may not
[01:56:35] agree is an anxietyprovoking event. So
[01:56:37] all the people who are the ones who are
[01:56:39] saying, "Why are you feeling anxious?"
[01:56:40] are the ones who saying, "But what is
[01:56:42] there to be anxious about this? There's
[01:56:43] nothing to be anxious about." They're
[01:56:45] dismissing that threat because it's not
[01:56:47] an obvious threat
[01:56:49] >> for that person. And it feels like a
[01:56:51] profoundly obvious threat
[01:56:53] right now. You can't deny that it feels
[01:56:56] like that for the person because if they
[01:56:58] are actually having a panic attack, they
[01:57:00] will feel like they're having a heart
[01:57:01] attack. It's literally as bad as a heart
[01:57:05] attack, a severe panic attack. Your body
[01:57:07] is going through literally that feeling
[01:57:08] of massive catacolamine release. Your
[01:57:11] heart is literally in your throat. You
[01:57:13] feel your throat begin to clench. You
[01:57:15] have full hands sweating. It's a full
[01:57:18] physiological reaction which will likely
[01:57:20] get you into the emergency room because
[01:57:22] you need feel like you're having a heart
[01:57:23] attack. Then you go in there and the
[01:57:25] person says but the no cardiac issues.
[01:57:27] It is a fullfledged panic attack. So
[01:57:30] your body has reacted like there is a
[01:57:32] crisis. Now you can't tell that person
[01:57:35] you imagined it because every parameter
[01:57:37] shows that they have not imagined it.
[01:57:40] But there is no obvious threat.
[01:57:43] Right? So now this becomes a question
[01:57:45] about how do you and when you get this
[01:57:48] chronic form of anxiety. It may or may
[01:57:50] not come with panic attacks. In some
[01:57:52] cases it may have panic attacks. In some
[01:57:54] case it just may be chronic anxiety
[01:57:56] where you chronically are feeling
[01:57:58] anxious. No panic attack but chronic
[01:58:00] anxiety about not obvious threats.
[01:58:03] Obvious threats are easy.
[01:58:05] >> Someone has had a familiar loss. Someone
[01:58:07] is going through a real major divorce.
[01:58:09] Something you can see the thing that is
[01:58:11] driving the anxiety. no obvious external
[01:58:14] threat and yet the person is severely
[01:58:16] anxious.
[01:58:18] Denying it would not be right because
[01:58:20] that person feels it. But also the
[01:58:22] question of now how do you handle
[01:58:25] imaginary or perceived threats?
[01:58:29] How do you scale back threats which are
[01:58:31] not really a crisis to a manageable
[01:58:34] level? Some of it is medication. So
[01:58:37] people would give an anti-anxiety
[01:58:39] treatment and there are plenty but
[01:58:40] they're not very good ones. They're all
[01:58:42] symptomatic. They handle the symptoms,
[01:58:44] but they don't handle the underlying
[01:58:46] condition.
[01:58:48] >> Often takes therapy,
[01:58:49] >> a combination of medication, and the
[01:58:52] ability to detect what are your triggers
[01:58:54] to be able to watch for what is
[01:58:56] happening. But yes, we live in a much
[01:58:59] more complex world in which perceived
[01:59:01] threats are much larger than what they
[01:59:03] were in the past. Partly because we you
[01:59:07] know our body was beautifully dressed to
[01:59:10] you know designed to deal with acute
[01:59:13] stress. It does very well with acute
[01:59:15] stress. It doesn't do well with chronic
[01:59:17] social stress. And currently all threats
[01:59:20] almost 90% of them will fall into the
[01:59:22] category of chronic social stress.
[01:59:26] That's the category that is a category
[01:59:28] that tends to cause these sorts of it's
[01:59:31] social and it's chronic. It could be
[01:59:34] something as simple as having a bad
[01:59:36] relationship with your boss. You walk
[01:59:38] into work, they've not even said
[01:59:40] anything to you. Their eyebrow has moved
[01:59:43] a little bit and there has been a little
[01:59:45] bit of a displeasure on their face and
[01:59:47] it has totally thrown your day off, your
[01:59:50] week off, your month off, and that's all
[01:59:52] it was. You have not been fired, nothing
[01:59:55] has happened, but it's such a bad
[01:59:57] relationship that you feel such a sense
[02:00:00] of impending doom almost. And so yes,
[02:00:03] you have the full-fledged anxiety
[02:00:05] reaction
[02:00:06] >> where in brain it reacts when a boss
[02:00:09] yells at me and I feel I don't know what
[02:00:14] I feel but when whenever a boss yells at
[02:00:17] an employee where do they feel it in the
[02:00:18] brain and what goes on in the brain?
[02:00:20] >> Well, one if you're feeling strong
[02:00:21] stress the first place will be the
[02:00:23] hypothalamus. This part of the brain the
[02:00:25] hypothalamus that gets activated as a
[02:00:27] stress circuit. It activates your
[02:00:29] pituitary
[02:00:30] >> which is this organ which releases
[02:00:32] cortic essentially releases the hormone
[02:00:35] that will drive releases something
[02:00:36] called act. Don't worry about the name
[02:00:39] that goes to your adrenal glands which
[02:00:41] sit on either side of your kidney and
[02:00:42] they secrete cortisol. Now cortisol is
[02:00:45] your stress hormone that goes all over
[02:00:47] your body. The job of cortisol is
[02:00:50] actually very clear. It's supposed to
[02:00:52] shut down your digestion, shut down your
[02:00:53] reproduction, reorient your glucose to
[02:00:56] your muscles. And this makes sense
[02:00:57] because if I had the tiger in front of
[02:00:59] me, I will have to run away or I would
[02:01:00] have to hide. I have to do two things
[02:01:02] which means my glucose cannot be going
[02:01:04] everywhere. It needs to go to my
[02:01:05] muscles. I need to get out of here. I
[02:01:07] need to hide or run away.
[02:01:09] >> So this system is beautifully
[02:01:11] evolutionary designed to give you fast
[02:01:13] quick escape. Fight or flight. Fight is
[02:01:16] useless with a tiger. So you fight.
[02:01:18] >> So you escape and that cortisol is vital
[02:01:21] in that. In addition, you will release
[02:01:23] from the adrenal glands adrenaline which
[02:01:25] causes your heart rate to go up,
[02:01:27] >> causes your full sympathy, your pupils
[02:01:29] will shift in size. You know, tongue
[02:01:32] saliva will dry up. All this is good
[02:01:34] because right now you're not worrying
[02:01:35] about digestion or production.
[02:01:37] >> But now imagine this is happening when
[02:01:39] the boss shouts at you. And if your boss
[02:01:41] shouts at you every day in the week,
[02:01:43] every day in the week your body is
[02:01:44] responding like there is a tiger in the
[02:01:46] room. Same response, right? But no
[02:01:49] control over the situation. you can't
[02:01:51] run away from it. You're stuck with this
[02:01:53] person. So, you have a fullfledged
[02:01:56] immune response plus a hormonal response
[02:02:00] to the extent that your immune there is
[02:02:02] a reason why we see so many immune
[02:02:04] reactions, disrupted immune reactions as
[02:02:07] well because your stress pathways have
[02:02:08] gone haywire. Now, this individual if
[02:02:12] they don't get irritable bowel syndrome
[02:02:14] and they don't get gut dysfunction, it's
[02:02:17] inevitable. You know, if you keep doing
[02:02:19] this day in and day out, day in and day
[02:02:21] out, then your systems are going to be
[02:02:22] like, "What is going on? My digestion is
[02:02:25] shut down. My reproductive pathways are
[02:02:27] shut down. All this is shut down because
[02:02:29] I'm having this huge fight orflight
[02:02:31] response to this one individual who I
[02:02:33] don't have control over." So, either you
[02:02:35] have to create some boundary and tell
[02:02:37] the person that I do not appreciate the
[02:02:38] way you're communicating to me. go to
[02:02:40] HR, find a way to manage that or find a
[02:02:42] way to manage your own responses where
[02:02:44] you don't react that way where you say,
[02:02:46] "Okay, yeah, he's shouting, but that's
[02:02:48] his problem. I'm not going to have a
[02:02:50] full-fledged body reaction to this." So,
[02:02:53] yes, we are driving our pathways like
[02:02:55] this. And now imagine that that happens
[02:02:57] with how many likes you get on social
[02:02:59] media.
[02:03:00] >> That is chronic social stress.
[02:03:02] >> Give me two three examples. So, one was
[02:03:04] boss.
[02:03:04] >> One was boss. Another chronic social
[02:03:07] stress is let's say your world is you're
[02:03:10] a teenager your world is right now your
[02:03:13] crew of people who are your age who
[02:03:15] currently mainly you interact with on
[02:03:17] whatever Instagram etc etc etc
[02:03:20] >> you are being socially bullied
[02:03:24] by the popular kids in the class or in
[02:03:27] the whatever right you are now being
[02:03:29] ostracized socially chronically so
[02:03:32] socially ostracized it's not overt
[02:03:34] nobody's saying anything, but they're
[02:03:36] just not including you in anything. And
[02:03:38] you've been pushed out and pushed out
[02:03:39] and pushed out till you feel isolated.
[02:03:42] And let's say you post a picture of
[02:03:43] yourself or something having a good day.
[02:03:46] It's your birthday. Some nobody in your
[02:03:48] classroom likes it.
[02:03:51] >> That's a social.
[02:03:53] Yeah,
[02:03:54] >> that's a social attack. So, someone just
[02:03:56] basically made you feel bullied on
[02:03:58] social media that produces the same
[02:04:02] biological response. you will have the
[02:04:04] same underlying biochemistry happening
[02:04:06] in your body. Now, that's happening
[02:04:07] through for something you can't control.
[02:04:09] >> Yeah,
[02:04:10] >> it's a threat that is not in your hands
[02:04:12] that you have no control over unless you
[02:04:14] can get yourself out of that situation.
[02:04:16] Hopefully, find a bunch of people who
[02:04:18] genuinely care about you and invest in
[02:04:20] them and forget about these bullies. But
[02:04:22] that's not easy to tell a teenager to do
[02:04:23] who's suffering through that, right? You
[02:04:25] have to first acknowledge what they
[02:04:27] feel. You have to and that's where I say
[02:04:28] to naysayers who dismiss someone, don't
[02:04:32] start with the dismissal cuz you may you
[02:04:34] have not walked their shoes.
[02:04:35] >> True.
[02:04:35] >> Right. You haven't walked their shoes.
[02:04:37] And before you tell them, oh, why are
[02:04:39] you even reacting? You're overreacting.
[02:04:41] Take the time to consider the
[02:04:42] possibility that for them it's a huge
[02:04:44] response.
[02:04:46] Panic attacks get people into the ER for
[02:04:49] a reason because it literally feels like
[02:04:52] a heart attack.
[02:04:54] And can this happen inside a family as
[02:04:57] well?
[02:04:58] >> Of course, it can happen.
[02:04:58] >> Chronic social stress can be caused by
[02:05:00] family members. How? Give me a
[02:05:02] situation. Most common situation.
[02:05:04] >> Most common is emotional abuse and
[02:05:05] emotional uh invalidation of another
[02:05:08] individual. Let's say every single day
[02:05:11] someone is told that you're incapable.
[02:05:14] You will never achieve anything. Look
[02:05:16] again, you've disappointed me. Look,
[02:05:18] this is all you're capable of doing. Why
[02:05:21] should I expect any better of you? I'm
[02:05:22] just saying these words, not raised
[02:05:24] voice, not anything. But if this happens
[02:05:26] 24/7, day in and day out, that's
[02:05:28] emotional abuse. That's essentially
[02:05:30] telling and denigrating another person
[02:05:32] of their inherent identity and
[02:05:34] chronically attacking them on anything.
[02:05:37] So that is absolutely a strong stress.
[02:05:41] So we look at physical abuse and we see
[02:05:43] it. So we view this as a obvious form of
[02:05:46] abuse, domestic abuse, but emotional
[02:05:49] sustained emotional abuse where you
[02:05:52] denigrate the other person's inherent
[02:05:54] identity and capability day in and day
[02:05:56] out is also a form of abuse. And that is
[02:05:59] a massive social stress. It happens in
[02:06:01] families all the time. Unfortunately,
[02:06:05] >> the very people you expect to be your
[02:06:08] cheerleaders saying you can go achieve
[02:06:11] everything that you want that you are
[02:06:12] capable of, you know, climbing to the
[02:06:15] top of whatever Mount Everest, doing
[02:06:17] whatever you need to do. Are the people
[02:06:18] who are telling you you're not capable
[02:06:20] of doing it? That's that's a hard thing
[02:06:23] for anybody to swallow. And that is is
[02:06:25] something that happens early. In
[02:06:27] particular, those kinds of stresses when
[02:06:29] they happen to children
[02:06:31] change their life histories forever. And
[02:06:33] that's scary. So that first 101 15 years
[02:06:36] of life, if this happens in that first
[02:06:39] decade and a half of life, that has very
[02:06:42] longlasting consequences. In fact, the
[02:06:44] damaging consequences of that are often
[02:06:46] across the whole lifespan.
[02:06:49] >> So does this anxiety like where does it
[02:06:52] happen? Does it happen inside my body or
[02:06:54] brain?
[02:06:54] >> Both. So the
[02:06:56] >> where does it attack first?
[02:06:57] >> So the first place you will feel it is
[02:06:59] actually in your hypothalamus which
[02:07:01] activates the release. But the other
[02:07:03] place you'll feel it is in your heart
[02:07:05] and in your gut. The two places you
[02:07:08] first feel it and you say my I don't
[02:07:09] feel okay here. So one of the things
[02:07:11] that people often feel is that they have
[02:07:12] to go to the loop because they have to
[02:07:14] use the restroom because they literally
[02:07:16] have to take it all out. That's a fear
[02:07:18] response. That was a classic old fear
[02:07:20] response which is a sympathetic nervous
[02:07:22] system getting activated. You dump out
[02:07:24] everything that is in your digestive
[02:07:26] tract or you may feel like puking or you
[02:07:28] may feel like taking it out. Right? So
[02:07:30] these two things happen. Your heart rate
[02:07:31] goes up. Your palm starts sweating. Your
[02:07:33] mouth dries. By then the cortisol has
[02:07:36] nicely peaked in the first 15 20 minutes
[02:07:39] and that's going everywhere in your body
[02:07:42] saying muscles come on get the glucose
[02:07:44] do but you you have nothing to run away
[02:07:46] from. You're sitting in your office
[02:07:47] quietly having this full response but
[02:07:50] you don't have anything to do with you
[02:07:51] shut down your reproduction immune
[02:07:53] system. All your immune cells start
[02:07:56] surveillance underneath the skin
[02:07:57] imagining that you will be
[02:08:01] eaten. So if you were to like if you
[02:08:03] were really out in the savana or
[02:08:05] wherever where one tiger was going to
[02:08:07] come and bite you or a lion was going to
[02:08:08] come and attack you, you would need to
[02:08:10] repair the wounds, right? So you send
[02:08:11] all your immune system into hyper
[02:08:13] vigilance mode saying let me see if
[02:08:15] there's a cut or anything anywhere so
[02:08:17] that I can protect this person.
[02:08:19] >> No cut.
[02:08:20] >> The cuts are only like invisible.
[02:08:22] >> So first is brain then is heart. Why
[02:08:24] heart? Because the first thing you have
[02:08:27] to do is get everything to every part of
[02:08:29] your body. What's going to get the stuff
[02:08:31] to your body? Even your hormones to get
[02:08:32] to your body, it's your heart pumps it
[02:08:35] to every part of your body. Glucose, if
[02:08:37] you need to get to every part, you need
[02:08:38] to increase the rate at which the stuff
[02:08:40] is pumping this information everywhere.
[02:08:43] So your heart rate going up is the
[02:08:44] biggest indicator of first indicator of
[02:08:47] stress. In fact, you can just do that.
[02:08:49] If you do a small mental ma math test,
[02:08:52] which is for most people mildly
[02:08:53] stressful and you just follow your heart
[02:08:55] rate, you will see a clear bump up.
[02:08:58] >> Interesting.
[02:08:59] >> Yeah. Most people, so if you do this
[02:09:01] tiny experiment, you can take somebody
[02:09:03] in front of you and you say, I'm going
[02:09:04] to give you mental math. You have to
[02:09:06] solve these things. I will throw a
[02:09:08] question at you in 5 minutes. You have
[02:09:09] to solve them. I'm just going to watch
[02:09:10] your heart rate.
[02:09:12] >> Most people will have a nice unless
[02:09:14] they're a mathematician who loves doing
[02:09:16] mental math. you will see this this
[02:09:18] quick bump up in heart rate and more
[02:09:21] often than not you will also see a
[02:09:22] galvanic skin response a mild amount of
[02:09:25] sweat which is what they're detecting
[02:09:27] with lie detectors and stuff right
[02:09:29] that's what you're looking at you're
[02:09:30] looking at whether galvanic skin
[02:09:32] response ability to conduct a signal is
[02:09:34] changed because sweat will be a better
[02:09:36] conductor
[02:09:37] >> interesting I didn't know that light
[02:09:40] detection was
[02:09:42] >> mostly done through sweat
[02:09:43] >> it's also done through the basically
[02:09:44] galvanic skin response to see if you
[02:09:46] sweat when you're asked a question that
[02:09:48] you have to then fib.
[02:09:50] >> Fascinating. Okay. You you touched
[02:09:53] something where you said uh in a kid
[02:09:56] when they're growing years, right? That
[02:09:58] if something like this happens, chronic
[02:10:00] social stress where they've been
[02:10:01] negated, they've been told incapable or
[02:10:03] whatever, childhood trauma, stuff like
[02:10:05] that, right? There is
[02:10:08] I was reading about something, right?
[02:10:10] that
[02:10:13] when when you go through a certain level
[02:10:15] of
[02:10:18] stress or let's say a trauma or some
[02:10:22] some problematic situation in your
[02:10:24] childhood
[02:10:26] there are chances that in your early
[02:10:28] years of growth let's say 20 25 when
[02:10:32] your career growth's happening it can
[02:10:34] actually be adaptive like it can be good
[02:10:36] for you right
[02:10:37] >> but then the same things actually become
[02:10:40] maladapt. Yeah. There's a Yeah. There's
[02:10:42] no free lunch. Eventually, it catches up
[02:10:44] with you.
[02:10:44] >> Exactly. So there at the at the age of
[02:10:46] 40, it becomes maladaptive. Right.
[02:10:48] >> Explain me this like what is happening
[02:10:50] that something today that is helping me
[02:10:53] become better
[02:10:54] >> is actually going to kill me at the age
[02:10:57] of 40 or someone who's at 40 or 35
[02:11:00] >> doesn't know doesn't looks fine and nice
[02:11:02] but there's something
[02:11:04] >> catches up. Yeah. So the thing about
[02:11:06] stress and the thing about cortisol is
[02:11:08] it's very interesting. It also has a
[02:11:11] sort of birectional relationship with
[02:11:13] the brain. So at the lower levels of
[02:11:15] cortisol like let's say there's a mild
[02:11:17] stress and mild acute stress and you
[02:11:19] make a little bit more cortisol. It
[02:11:21] actually improves your learning. It
[02:11:24] improves your attention. It improves a
[02:11:26] bunch of things. Now this is not
[02:11:27] surprising. Let's say you have to
[02:11:29] perform for something. A little boost of
[02:11:31] cortisol that's actually helping you. So
[02:11:33] there's something called ustress almost
[02:11:35] like a beneficial mild stress, right?
[02:11:38] It's in the working range of normal
[02:11:40] amount of little bit of stress.
[02:11:42] >> Preparing for an exam, preparing for a
[02:11:44] public speaking event, preparing for a
[02:11:45] performance, bit of cortisol leak. So
[02:11:48] that's the good you stress of things.
[02:11:50] Then there's a very high cortisol. Very
[02:11:53] high cortisol sends everything haywire
[02:11:55] including degradation of memory,
[02:11:57] hypocample damage, neurons die,
[02:11:59] dendrites atrophy, lots of damage in the
[02:12:01] brain. Now what happens in individuals
[02:12:04] that have had a history of early trauma
[02:12:07] is that that period of time is actually
[02:12:09] almost like a prediction device for what
[02:12:11] your future is likely to be. There's
[02:12:14] something in the early development. It's
[02:12:15] a period called critical period. It's
[02:12:17] almost as though your brain is saying
[02:12:18] aha. So this is what my world will feel
[02:12:21] like 20 years down the road. So the
[02:12:23] experiences that happen in that early
[02:12:25] window have a disproportionately larger
[02:12:28] impact on your brain than experiences in
[02:12:30] the adult brain. Okay.
[02:12:31] >> So in the young childhood adolescent
[02:12:34] window, an experience which is negative
[02:12:36] and a strong series of experiences that
[02:12:38] are ne negative, you are preparing for
[02:12:40] the likelihood that more negative
[02:12:42] experiences are going to come. So your
[02:12:44] entire HPA system is hyperactive.
[02:12:49] It's like it's like it's prepared with
[02:12:51] all alarm bells to go. It's so primed
[02:12:54] and at the same time the ability to shut
[02:12:56] off this pathway has gone down
[02:12:59] >> gone down. So you have this hyperp
[02:13:01] primed system and the ability to control
[02:13:03] it has become less. So now this
[02:13:05] individual has a survival advantage if
[02:13:08] they were really in the forest with a
[02:13:10] wild which you can see like it would
[02:13:13] almost benefit you because you'll be
[02:13:14] like there's a tiger even before the
[02:13:16] tiger comes you might be prepared and
[02:13:18] get out of there. So the system is
[02:13:20] prepping for the possibility that it has
[02:13:22] to be hypervigilant.
[02:13:24] The problem is so there's a beneficial
[02:13:27] effect of it. It will also give you
[02:13:28] boost in memory sometimes a little bit
[02:13:31] better performance in stressful
[02:13:32] situations. So more often than not when
[02:13:34] you see people who had early adversity
[02:13:37] they may handle adult adversity better
[02:13:39] because they have already had a series
[02:13:42] of experiences in which their body is
[02:13:44] prepped to handle stress in adult.
[02:13:46] >> The problem with this is chronically
[02:13:48] when you keep doing this to your brain
[02:13:50] >> over a lifespan your brain is seeing way
[02:13:53] more cortisol than it should see. M
[02:13:55] >> it's like bathing the brain with
[02:13:57] cortisol continuously no matter what
[02:13:59] happens right so now
[02:14:01] >> as you age and you hit middle age life
[02:14:03] your hypocampus start shrinking in
[02:14:05] volume all your inflammation markers in
[02:14:08] the periphery have gone haywire so they
[02:14:10] are much higher than they need to be so
[02:14:12] your CRP GDF 15 all your interlucans
[02:14:15] cytoines all high right
[02:14:17] >> you're basically aging faster
[02:14:21] now what evolutionarily you've protected
[02:14:24] the individual through their
[02:14:25] reproductive years, which is their young
[02:14:28] adulthood. You've protected them. Then
[02:14:30] your the body collapses later, collapses
[02:14:33] later. It's almost a it's like you've
[02:14:35] done everything you could to adapt, but
[02:14:38] adaptation is costly.
[02:14:42] >> So my and this is this is thing. So in
[02:14:45] almost all my blood tests, everything is
[02:14:48] great. My cortisol's higher.
[02:14:50] >> Yeah.
[02:14:51] >> But I don't feel any stress. I feel
[02:14:53] normal human being.
[02:14:54] >> How much higher though?
[02:14:55] >> Little bit. Not like a lot. Not like a
[02:14:57] lot. Not off the charts. It's It's
[02:14:59] there, but it's almost
[02:15:00] >> every time.
[02:15:02] >> It's slightly on the higher side.
[02:15:03] >> It's always on the higher side.
[02:15:04] >> But also, it matters when they're
[02:15:06] testing. I mean, whether it's morning or
[02:15:07] evening and you should just keep an eye
[02:15:09] on that because morning is when your
[02:15:10] cortisol peak would be.
[02:15:12] >> But if let's say 500 people are getting
[02:15:14] tested and on the benchmark, I'm getting
[02:15:16] higher. So, it's always higher.
[02:15:19] >> Yeah. In most
[02:15:19] >> But I don't feel stressed at all. But in
[02:15:21] most high performing individuals who are
[02:15:25] driving themselves inherently at the
[02:15:28] higher end of their capability, cortisol
[02:15:31] might be slightly higher. Now the
[02:15:33] question is what level of cortisol
[02:15:35] starts mattering and like I said at the
[02:15:39] lower end of a higher cortisol there's
[02:15:41] actually some beneficial effects and
[02:15:43] then it starts catching up on the body
[02:15:46] over a period of time. I think the thing
[02:15:48] one can do and this is what people are
[02:15:51] talking about is which how do you keep
[02:15:53] your how do you increase your
[02:15:54] parasympathetic nervous system and
[02:15:56] reduce your sympathetic tone. So your
[02:15:59] sympathetic nervous system is your fight
[02:16:01] or flight system. It's the let me go to
[02:16:04] war today so I can survive tomorrow.
[02:16:06] That's your sympathetic nervous system.
[02:16:07] Your parasympathetic nervous system is
[02:16:09] your rest and digest system. Right? So
[02:16:11] these are your two and they're two like
[02:16:13] literally in continuously working in
[02:16:16] concert but we spend a lot of time on
[02:16:19] the sympathetic nervous system because
[02:16:21] that drive also gives us the adrenaline.
[02:16:24] It gives us the rush. It also helps us
[02:16:26] become goal oriented etc. There's value
[02:16:28] to the sympathetic nervous system. We
[02:16:30] don't do enough for the parasympathetic
[02:16:33] at all. Slowing it down is this side
[02:16:37] right? Slowing down your brain, slowing
[02:16:39] down your body, slowing down your
[02:16:42] breath, slowing down everything is not a
[02:16:45] primary focus, especially in your young
[02:16:48] adult.
[02:16:48] >> It's the last thing you think. Even when
[02:16:50] you're thinking about exercise, it's
[02:16:51] always cardiovascular.
[02:16:53] >> It's always how do I increase my
[02:16:55] cardiovascular output and how do I get
[02:16:57] my V2 V2 max like okay, how am I GOING
[02:17:00] TO DO THIS? RIGHT. SO, you're so
[02:17:01] oriented towards
[02:17:02] >> I feel attacked. Okay.
[02:17:05] that part of the system getting so much
[02:17:07] attention. This part is ignored. It's
[02:17:10] never the focus. So who's sitting and
[02:17:12] saying let's do shavasan for like half
[02:17:14] an hour today. It's not a big deal. It's
[02:17:16] people if I do shavasan for 5 minutes I
[02:17:18] fall asleep. Nothing wrong with that.
[02:17:20] But to be able to bring this part of
[02:17:24] your system
[02:17:25] into good tune is a great thing. I
[02:17:29] struggle with it. I also have a
[02:17:30] hyperympathetic overdrive. My
[02:17:31] sympathetic nervous system is much
[02:17:33] higher in function because adrenaline
[02:17:36] drive they're good things but they come
[02:17:38] with their costs.
[02:17:40] >> So so because both of us is like like
[02:17:43] that our brain is aging faster than
[02:17:45] others
[02:17:45] >> possibly to a certain degree but we may
[02:17:48] also be doing other things to protect it
[02:17:50] because you're also continuously
[02:17:52] learning and you're also continuously
[02:17:53] using your brain to try different things
[02:17:55] and that's protective. So it's never
[02:17:57] unfortunately none of this is
[02:17:59] >> this and this is the automatic
[02:18:02] because you're compensated by other
[02:18:04] things. But certainly if somebody was to
[02:18:06] give you and me advice, they may say why
[02:18:08] don't you spend in your week at least 2
[02:18:11] three hours that are focused on your
[02:18:13] parasympathetic nervous system.
[02:18:15] >> So, so I my performance coach actually
[02:18:18] tells me that because my cortisol is
[02:18:21] high and it's like only on the border,
[02:18:22] it is actually a good thing. That's
[02:18:24] probably a thing which is helping you do
[02:18:26] what you're doing because
[02:18:28] >> so he works with a lot of other athletes
[02:18:30] as well.
[02:18:31] >> So he's like I've seen this across
[02:18:34] >> it's inevitable. He's like it's your
[02:18:36] body is being driven but there is room
[02:18:38] in that
[02:18:39] >> to work the other pathway so that you
[02:18:43] can find a quick way even if you have a
[02:18:45] cortisol. So the thing that a cortisol
[02:18:48] level doesn't tell you that means your
[02:18:49] baseline is higher doesn't tell you how
[02:18:51] quickly you come back to baseline going
[02:18:53] up and how quickly you come back that's
[02:18:54] a vital indicator because it's your
[02:18:57] quick ability to respond and come back
[02:18:59] to baseline quickly that gets messed up
[02:19:02] that becomes a problem because you go up
[02:19:04] and then you just stay up stay up stay
[02:19:06] up stay and don't come down then the
[02:19:07] body gets a lot more cortisol than it
[02:19:09] should be seen.
[02:19:10] >> Yeah. So he was I'll just I'll I'll tell
[02:19:12] you the full thing. Right. So he was and
[02:19:14] he was comparing it comparing mine with
[02:19:18] someone else and he was explaining me
[02:19:19] how he used to work with one of the
[02:19:21] football players and captains right from
[02:19:24] the part of Europe and I was like he was
[02:19:26] a world cup winning captain and he
[02:19:28] tracked there as well. So what they
[02:19:30] found out was his cortisol was always
[02:19:32] perpetually high as well and the
[02:19:35] fascinating thing was not only on the
[02:19:37] match days which is okay but on the
[02:19:39] practice day
[02:19:40] >> also up
[02:19:41] >> also it was up. So it worked great but
[02:19:45] then he was explaining me that after
[02:19:46] winning that one world cup his
[02:19:48] motivation died. So he couldn't actually
[02:19:51] like he suddenly broke or something
[02:19:53] happened where his cortisol and
[02:19:55] everything was normal. He was much
[02:19:56] calmer person but everything just
[02:19:58] collapsed and that that I I found it
[02:20:02] weird like how somebody who's always
[02:20:04] been high performing always high stress
[02:20:06] is high let's go run everything just
[02:20:09] falls apart. And then I showed this to a
[02:20:11] neuroscientist and neuroscience. So they
[02:20:14] gave me the same explanation that you
[02:20:16] need to learn how to be more calmer or
[02:20:18] else this certain collapse will come in
[02:20:20] your life where nothing will motivate
[02:20:22] you anymore.
[02:20:23] >> And I was like this is a fair thing. And
[02:20:25] that gets me to the next question is
[02:20:26] that
[02:20:28] >> this happens in day-to-day life as well
[02:20:30] with a lot of people that suddenly
[02:20:34] very high functioning individuals
[02:20:36] >> in their 30s or 40s they suddenly break.
[02:20:39] They burn out.
[02:20:40] >> They Why does it happen? They've been
[02:20:42] high functioning individuals
[02:20:44] >> because there's a cost. And I think if
[02:20:47] you've not learned the the there's a
[02:20:49] biology to this, right? That our systems
[02:20:51] are meant me meant not to be driven at
[02:20:54] 100% all the time. If you drive a system
[02:20:57] at 100 any car also driven at 100%, you
[02:21:00] will have to go and take it back to the
[02:21:01] mechanic to do some repair etc. We're
[02:21:04] not giving any time to ourselves for
[02:21:06] downtime. Genuine downtime where you
[02:21:09] switch off, you learn how to relax. You
[02:21:11] give yourself time to for genuine
[02:21:15] leisure. Genuine leisure. Even our
[02:21:17] holidays have become about achievements.
[02:21:19] It's like the next tick off this box,
[02:21:22] right? It can't be that. There has to be
[02:21:24] room for sitting in a room with a book
[02:21:27] relaxing or literally quieter
[02:21:29] activities. There's a reason why people
[02:21:31] talk about things like knitting and all
[02:21:33] coming back because it slows the nervous
[02:21:35] system down like the repetitive action
[02:21:38] of doing something like painting,
[02:21:40] pottery, stuff with your hands. Why are
[02:21:43] there people going towards these as
[02:21:44] hobbies now? Because it brings your
[02:21:46] heart rate down. It brings a certain
[02:21:49] semblance of regulation in and you
[02:21:52] realize that you can slow things down.
[02:21:54] Slowing it down, we are on hyperdrive
[02:21:57] all the time. That's a little dangerous.
[02:21:59] It does come with its cost because if
[02:22:02] you are a 24 even when you look at
[02:22:04] people who are
[02:22:06] looking at improving their health
[02:22:09] quality they're also doing it like a
[02:22:11] task which is like I'm going to have x
[02:22:13] number of supplements I'm going to do
[02:22:15] this this is what I'm going to do now I
[02:22:16] will run this much then I will do this
[02:22:18] marathon then I will do this then
[02:22:20] there's no room in this to breathe it's
[02:22:22] just let's go go go go go go how does
[02:22:24] this work the system will at some point
[02:22:26] say I'm done either it will say I'm done
[02:22:29] and you'll give you a signal and you
[02:22:30] should listen to the signal or it will
[02:22:32] say I'm done when you're not listening
[02:22:33] and then you'll have a collapse.
[02:22:34] >> So high functioning individuals because
[02:22:36] they're always on on on run run they
[02:22:40] will collapse at one point because
[02:22:41] they're not giving themselves time for
[02:22:43] leisure. They may. They may. They may.
[02:22:46] Because if you if you go non-stop with
[02:22:49] no room for downtime, I don't think any
[02:22:52] system is designed for that kind of
[02:22:54] sustained 24/7 productivity efficiency
[02:22:57] at all costs. It comes with it cost. It
[02:23:00] may not come with a burnout necessarily.
[02:23:01] It can come in other ways. It comes out
[02:23:03] as weird idiosyncrasies
[02:23:05] >> where you see people who behave and
[02:23:08] you're thinking why is this person
[02:23:09] behaving like this? They have lost their
[02:23:11] mind almost. why they behave or they
[02:23:13] will be you know really control freaks
[02:23:16] with other people etc. So it emerges in
[02:23:19] in aberant behavioral forms. It doesn't
[02:23:22] always have to result in a burnout but
[02:23:24] it does emerge.
[02:23:25] >> Yeah. In behavioral issues almost every
[02:23:28] high individ high performing individual
[02:23:31] I know of they've either gone through it
[02:23:34] or they're going through it and they
[02:23:35] don't even realize it.
[02:23:36] >> Yeah. It's a very common side effect of
[02:23:39] driving yourself 24/7.
[02:23:41] >> Yeah. like every it's it's almost funny
[02:23:44] that I always I'm a very reflective
[02:23:47] person. I reflect a lot, right? And uh
[02:23:51] every time I meet someone really
[02:23:53] remarkable and impressive, someone who's
[02:23:55] built billions of dollars, someone who's
[02:23:57] achieved gold medals after gold medal,
[02:23:59] someone who's just done like something
[02:24:00] remarkable in the world, right? You meet
[02:24:02] them and if you dig deeper for like 20
[02:24:06] 30 minutes and I tend to do that because
[02:24:08] of my podcast, right? Of course,
[02:24:10] >> after that I come back home like this is
[02:24:13] an abnormal behavior. I have never come
[02:24:16] back and be like this such a golden
[02:24:17] human being.
[02:24:19] >> I'm like I I respect them because
[02:24:20] they've achieved something and I come
[02:24:21] back with like this is an abnormal
[02:24:23] behavior and every one of them has some
[02:24:24] abnormal behavior.
[02:24:26] >> It's unfortunately a a side effect of
[02:24:29] being hyperfocused.
[02:24:32] I think hyperfocused on onedimensional
[02:24:35] uni-dimensional thing in life comes with
[02:24:37] the side effect that it will come with
[02:24:39] some of these things.
[02:24:40] >> Interesting.
[02:24:41] >> Yeah.
[02:24:42] >> So if I'm hyperfocused there there is
[02:24:45] some behavior that probably people who
[02:24:48] are close to me would be facing the cost
[02:24:50] of
[02:24:50] >> some aberration for sure because it's
[02:24:52] >> and I'm not even aware of it.
[02:24:53] >> Yeah, most often we are not aware of it.
[02:24:55] We all do it with in some way it shows
[02:24:57] up in some aberrant form. people
[02:25:00] tolerate it and largely it falls in the
[02:25:01] realm of tolerated you know
[02:25:03] idiosyncrasies and in fact
[02:25:04] eccentricities which you say indulgently
[02:25:07] oh this is not bad you know I understand
[02:25:09] where this is coming but sometimes it's
[02:25:12] not it results in people behaving really
[02:25:15] strange so that's where I think there is
[02:25:19] room for and that's why I was telling
[02:25:21] you about about this winning versus
[02:25:24] losing argument which we started with
[02:25:27] that I don't like the binary I don't
[02:25:29] like it being two bins only because the
[02:25:31] risk of two bins only means that
[02:25:33] everyone who falls in the bin that is
[02:25:34] not officially considered quote unquote
[02:25:36] winning is then defined as losing.
[02:25:40] >> And my worry with that sort of a binary
[02:25:42] outcome is that it comes with too high a
[02:25:44] cost on too much of humanity. And we
[02:25:46] have played into this idea. We played
[02:25:48] into it as cultures. We played into it
[02:25:50] as societies. We played into it as the
[02:25:52] level of individuals. And when we look
[02:25:54] across time in history, what is a winner
[02:25:58] and a loser in in large cultural
[02:26:00] landscape time? I mean one today to
[02:26:02] somebody's a winner. Tomorrow the same
[02:26:03] person is a loser. So you know I mean
[02:26:05] culturally if you look at
[02:26:06] civilizationally there's no civilization
[02:26:09] that hasn't gone through these troughs.
[02:26:11] >> Even individuals go through this all the
[02:26:13] time. I mean you're never going to be at
[02:26:15] you know all peak. Yeah.
[02:26:17] >> Exactly. So given that there has to be
[02:26:20] room for more diversity and there has to
[02:26:22] be more room for outcomes and perhaps
[02:26:25] one has to have reframe that
[02:26:27] understanding a little bit more broadly
[02:26:30] because when one does that I think one
[02:26:33] creates room for multiple outcomes
[02:26:38] multiple ways of existing in this world.
[02:26:41] Currently our tendency with people is to
[02:26:44] expect
[02:26:45] them to be the best version of
[02:26:48] themselves as many times as they can and
[02:26:51] that's a hard ask to sustain in a 70 80
[02:26:55] year lifespan. Let's say people live 80
[02:26:57] years it's not going to happen. It's
[02:26:58] just guaranteed not going to happen like
[02:27:01] it's a certainty. So now the question is
[02:27:03] how do you distribute this across at
[02:27:05] that 70 80
[02:27:07] >> nice
[02:27:08] >> how do you distribute it and what do you
[02:27:10] also prioritize
[02:27:12] do you the point you made which is how
[02:27:14] do I learn to be a great friend
[02:27:16] >> can I make that one of my priorities and
[02:27:19] one of my not winning bin one of my
[02:27:21] positive let's make it a positive versus
[02:27:23] not so positive not even negative you
[02:27:26] know something which is like something
[02:27:27] you can invest in
[02:27:29] >> we very rarely will somebody say that
[02:27:32] one of my ambitions and goals in life is
[02:27:34] to be a great friend to someone. That's
[02:27:36] not doubted as a great goal. Shouldn't
[02:27:39] it be one of the biggest goals we have?
[02:27:42] I mean, we were just talking about it.
[02:27:43] It is really a goal worth aspiring
[02:27:46] towards.
[02:27:46] >> True. True.
[02:27:47] >> But it's not our priority on our current
[02:27:50] list of achievements.
[02:27:53] >> Well, here are my last two questions.
[02:27:55] Okay. One is I didn't touch it and I
[02:27:58] don't know where I'm going to put it but
[02:27:59] I really wanted to know there's a lot of
[02:28:02] chatter around the world about
[02:28:04] psychedelics
[02:28:05] >> which is so drugs help your brain grow.
[02:28:10] >> Mhm.
[02:28:11] >> How?
[02:28:12] >> Okay. So drugs like life experiences
[02:28:15] interact with your brain and change your
[02:28:17] brain.
[02:28:18] >> Some drugs cause neurons to atrophy,
[02:28:21] dry, shrink. Some drugs, depending on
[02:28:23] what receptors they work on, can
[02:28:25] actually cause neurons to grow out new
[02:28:27] connections and grow new synapses.
[02:28:30] That's not very surprising because there
[02:28:32] are things in your own body,
[02:28:34] neurochemicals in your own body that can
[02:28:35] cause neurons to grow. And there are
[02:28:37] also neurochemicals that cause things to
[02:28:39] shrink. So if your body can have a
[02:28:41] cortisol that causes neurons many
[02:28:42] neurons to shrink and if your body can
[02:28:44] also have a growth factor that causes
[02:28:46] neurons to grow much the same way many
[02:28:49] of these substances several of which are
[02:28:51] plant derived and from the external
[02:28:53] world also have the capability of
[02:28:55] changing the brain both causing damage
[02:28:57] and promoting repair. So that idea is an
[02:29:00] old idea. As long as we as human beings
[02:29:03] have walked on this planet, we have used
[02:29:05] drugs from plants to treat ourselves,
[02:29:08] right? Something as simple as an
[02:29:10] aspirin, which is something that we all
[02:29:13] think about and take routinely starts
[02:29:16] with an origin which is a plant derived
[02:29:18] origin. In India, Ayurveda is inspired
[02:29:22] by a repository of traditional Indian
[02:29:25] knowledge that has come from plants,
[02:29:27] largely from plants, right? So the idea
[02:29:31] that something that comes from plants
[02:29:32] can have this. So these are also
[02:29:33] psychedelics are also molecules that
[02:29:35] come from either plants or fungi
[02:29:38] they happen to have the property of
[02:29:40] modulating a particular serotonin
[02:29:42] receptor in the brain and associated
[02:29:45] with that they also increase growth
[02:29:47] factors and that seems to have something
[02:29:49] called a psychoplastogenic effect which
[02:29:51] means that neurons grow new connections
[02:29:54] make new synapses etc. That may not
[02:29:56] necessarily always be good. It may come
[02:30:00] sometimes be good, sometimes not. Right
[02:30:02] now, traditionally people have used
[02:30:04] these for thousands of years in the
[02:30:06] Amazonian forest. The shamans have used
[02:30:08] them etc. Now we have a rediscovery and
[02:30:11] a red desire to explore them because we
[02:30:14] currently have genuinely a mental health
[02:30:16] crisis in the world. The number of
[02:30:19] patients who have anxiety disorders,
[02:30:21] depression, post-traumatic stress
[02:30:23] disorder is large and growing and the
[02:30:26] complexity of the world we are creating
[02:30:27] this is only going to go higher rather
[02:30:29] than in the other direction. So given
[02:30:31] that and because most drugs that are
[02:30:33] currently used anti-depressants etc they
[02:30:36] work only on 2/3 of the population one/3
[02:30:39] doesn't even respond to any of the drugs
[02:30:41] that are there out there. So and they
[02:30:43] work slowly. So when a patient starts on
[02:30:45] an anti-depressant, you don't know if
[02:30:47] it's going to work for at least six 3 to
[02:30:49] 6 weeks. So you have a patient, you're
[02:30:51] giving a drug, you don't know if it's
[02:30:52] going to work and 6 weeks later you'll
[02:30:54] find out if it has worked at all.
[02:30:55] Otherwise, you'll have to switch drugs.
[02:30:57] So it's a really not a good situation in
[02:30:59] terms of quality of available
[02:31:01] medication. So that's why there's been a
[02:31:04] desire to reinvestigate psychedelics.
[02:31:07] But we are in a very we're in a delicate
[02:31:10] juncture right now for two reasons. One,
[02:31:12] because recreationally these drugs have
[02:31:15] been abused
[02:31:16] >> and because they've been recreationally
[02:31:18] utilized. Uh there are a lots of
[02:31:20] recreational narratives which are often
[02:31:22] biased towards the positive without
[02:31:24] being aware of the complexity of these
[02:31:26] drugs and their challenges. And because
[02:31:28] of that that is moving faster. The
[02:31:31] recreational narrative is moving faster
[02:31:33] than the careful clinical research
[02:31:36] associated narrative.
[02:31:37] >> What kind of drugs you mean? Like give
[02:31:38] me one or two names. Iwasa, psilocybin
[02:31:41] from magic mushrooms, LSD from lysurgic
[02:31:44] acid diathylamide which is a synthetic
[02:31:46] psychedelic. These drugs have been
[02:31:49] utilized by for recreational abuse in a
[02:31:52] sense and that narrative of its quote
[02:31:54] unquote beneficial effects has moved
[02:31:56] faster than the clinical research has
[02:31:58] moved. So now the worry with this is you
[02:32:00] need to do the careful clinical
[02:32:02] research. You need to do the
[02:32:03] pre-clinical research. You need studies
[02:32:05] on rats, mice, monkeys, humans. You need
[02:32:08] all of that to understand both the
[02:32:11] usefulness, the potential harmful side
[02:32:14] effects, the potential beneficial
[02:32:17] effects carefully and systematically.
[02:32:19] You have to study this before you can
[02:32:20] rush into saying, "Hey, these may be
[02:32:22] potentially of use. If you don't do this
[02:32:25] and you rush fast in here, you will have
[02:32:27] negative reactions because these drugs
[02:32:29] are there are class of drugs called
[02:32:32] psychotoimetic drugs which means they
[02:32:34] produce hallucinations and they produce
[02:32:36] altered states of consciousness.
[02:32:38] >> The other thing that you know produces
[02:32:40] hallucinations are states like
[02:32:41] schizophrenia.
[02:32:43] >> Okay. So they are drugs that are that's
[02:32:45] why they call psychotomimetic. They
[02:32:47] mimic
[02:32:48] >> the psychosis like state. You can have
[02:32:51] negative reactions and you could have a
[02:32:53] psychotic break. Right? This is a worry.
[02:32:55] >> You can't do this without carefully
[02:32:57] doing this.
[02:32:58] >> And if you take your time to do it
[02:32:59] carefully, you may even be able to
[02:33:01] synthesize new drugs that don't have the
[02:33:04] trip and don't have the psychosis
[02:33:05] element or the, you know, the
[02:33:07] psychedelic part, but have the
[02:33:08] beneficial parts. But you have to take
[02:33:10] your time. This is a 10, 12 year, 15
[02:33:14] year investment of time. And part of the
[02:33:16] problem is because patients want drugs
[02:33:19] that work and they want them fast. They
[02:33:22] may be tempted to recreationally try
[02:33:25] something which may actually have a
[02:33:27] negative effect.
[02:33:28] >> So this is why we are at this very
[02:33:30] delicate juncture where
[02:33:32] >> it's important to study them. It's
[02:33:34] important to study them well and it's
[02:33:37] also equally important to not rush them
[02:33:40] into the clinic and have a situation
[02:33:42] where there is a problem. But then a lot
[02:33:44] of people who are taking let's say LSDs
[02:33:46] or mushrooms just for recreation and
[02:33:50] going for a trip they tend to take it
[02:33:52] and they come out very happy that oh I
[02:33:54] had a great trip etc etc and then they
[02:33:57] forget about it and probably 6 months
[02:33:58] later they do it again right so they're
[02:34:00] not even like probably addicted to it
[02:34:02] the way they are addicted to let's say
[02:34:04] some people would do maybe a weed or
[02:34:06] cocaine or some other stuff right so
[02:34:10] it doesn't look like that they're super
[02:34:13] addictive.
[02:34:13] >> No, they're not because
[02:34:14] >> So they're not addictive to so I've not
[02:34:16] met anyone who's like addicted to
[02:34:17] >> because they don't hit the mental
[02:34:19] temental area common pathway in the same
[02:34:21] way as a cocaine, heroin, nicotine or
[02:34:23] alcohol. So they're not on that scale
[02:34:26] addict.
[02:34:26] >> So let's say LSD and mushrooms are not
[02:34:28] on that scale but people are taking it
[02:34:31] without any care without any stuff
[02:34:33] >> really worry about first of all. What is
[02:34:34] happening like why majority of them tend
[02:34:38] to enjoy it even without the even when
[02:34:41] they take it without care so there's no
[02:34:43] side effect at least looks like
[02:34:44] >> is we tend to hear the narratives that
[02:34:46] are positive more than we hear the
[02:34:48] narratives that are negative also keep
[02:34:50] in mind that all of these retreats that
[02:34:53] give them have a financial interest in
[02:34:55] your hearing the positive narratives
[02:34:56] over the negative absolutely so there is
[02:34:58] a financial interest element here as
[02:35:01] well because obviously there for them
[02:35:02] they are making money from this
[02:35:05] There are negative narratives. Maybe
[02:35:07] their fraction is smaller, but the
[02:35:09] negative narratives are genuinely scary
[02:35:11] as well. And yes, there's no doubt that
[02:35:14] these molecules can induce states which
[02:35:18] are fairly powerful. And some of those
[02:35:21] come also with the beneficial effect of
[02:35:24] giving you a mood modulatory effect
[02:35:26] which could actually kick a person out
[02:35:28] of a state of PTSD or a state of chronic
[02:35:31] me, you know, major depression.
[02:35:34] But we cannot go based on anecdotal and
[02:35:37] right now that's where we are in the
[02:35:40] narrative recreational space. It's
[02:35:41] anecdotal. You need to do this carefully
[02:35:44] and you need to do this with large
[02:35:45] enough numbers. You need to have it in a
[02:35:47] cultural context like ours. One of the
[02:35:49] things that I've been doing is talking
[02:35:51] to people at Nimhan saying India needs
[02:35:52] its own policy.
[02:35:55] We can't not have our own policy of how
[02:35:57] we're going to do this. We currently
[02:35:59] they're banned because they're all
[02:36:00] substance. They're all, you know,
[02:36:02] schedule one substances, so they are
[02:36:03] banned. So, anyone accessing it, it's
[02:36:05] illegal.
[02:36:06] >> But we need a thought through policy of
[02:36:10] our own clinical trials. The US has
[02:36:12] moved fast with their clinical trials.
[02:36:13] So has Switzerland, so has Australia,
[02:36:15] Canada, many places across the world. We
[02:36:18] are yet to take a call on what we are
[02:36:20] going to do with our own clinical
[02:36:22] trials. And there is a set setting
[02:36:24] element where the cultural context will
[02:36:26] matter. So we have to find a way that it
[02:36:29] works in our society and culture and see
[02:36:32] if it's appropriate in our context the
[02:36:34] same way which we are not doing at the
[02:36:36] moment
[02:36:37] >> we are not but my question is only that
[02:36:41] more anecdotes come or more stories are
[02:36:44] that people have enjoyed it doing it
[02:36:46] >> people always
[02:36:47] >> and it doesn't look like they've gone
[02:36:49] through any negative
[02:36:51] >> you know experience
[02:36:52] >> that's not true though because there are
[02:36:54] >> so you would argue that there's enough
[02:36:56] >> there enough
[02:36:58] concern that I would not especially in
[02:37:01] individuals that have a family history
[02:37:02] of either schizophrenia or bipolar
[02:37:04] disorder. I would say this is
[02:37:05] contraindicated,
[02:37:07] >> right? It was absolutely contraindicated
[02:37:09] because there have been examples where
[02:37:11] it has caused a psychotic break and
[02:37:14] people have ended up with a
[02:37:15] psychosis-like event under the influence
[02:37:18] of these drugs. So anyone let's say
[02:37:20] right now listening to this is
[02:37:24] is hearing stories from their friends
[02:37:26] that Iaska is one of the best
[02:37:28] experiences or uh you know they did some
[02:37:31] mushrooms or they did some I don't know
[02:37:34] some random psychedelic drug like LSD or
[02:37:36] stuff like that and they are
[02:37:38] incentivized or motivated or maybe just
[02:37:41] lured towards trying it because some of
[02:37:43] their friends or some story or some
[02:37:45] social media influencer did it right.
[02:37:48] What would you tell them?
[02:37:49] >> I would say no. Plain and simply as
[02:37:51] simple as that. I would not I mean
[02:37:53] >> and why because the other side actually
[02:37:54] gives an explanation that you will reach
[02:37:57] an altered state and get clarity in life
[02:37:58] and all that.
[02:37:59] >> I would I so first I would say that I
[02:38:03] that that these are molecules that have
[02:38:05] potent effects on your brain and they
[02:38:07] don't only have short-lived potent
[02:38:09] effects they have longived potent
[02:38:10] effects on your brain.
[02:38:12] Very often these people are the same
[02:38:14] people who are worrying about eating
[02:38:15] organic vegetables and eating healthy
[02:38:17] food only etc. uh and they are very
[02:38:19] worried about what they put into their
[02:38:20] body that but they're not worried about
[02:38:22] it when it comes to a drug of this scale
[02:38:24] which has the potent ability to change
[02:38:26] networks in your brain right so I would
[02:38:29] say that if it was someone who had
[02:38:32] clinical depression and they really
[02:38:35] wanted to and they were not responding
[02:38:37] to any treatment then I would say see a
[02:38:40] psychiatrist and see if you can be part
[02:38:42] of a clinical trial that would be one
[02:38:44] way to do in India right now that's not
[02:38:45] a possibility but people abroad are
[02:38:47] doing
[02:38:48] anyone else I would say
[02:38:50] >> a normal human being there's nothing
[02:38:52] going on
[02:38:52] >> yeah I would say you know these are
[02:38:54] really potent drugs they rewire your
[02:38:57] brain not just for the short term but
[02:38:59] often for the long term and that
[02:39:01] direction in which it's exactly going to
[02:39:03] rewire is not obvious and it's not in
[02:39:05] your control
[02:39:07] it's a it's a risk that I'm not sure one
[02:39:09] should be so willingly signing up for
[02:39:12] >> so rewiring of brain will happen
[02:39:14] >> but you don't know if it's going to be
[02:39:15] negative or positive
[02:39:17] I don't know which way it will go.
[02:39:19] >> So rewiring of brain as possible with
[02:39:21] drugs. You decide which direction.
[02:39:24] >> I mean it's a it's a scary thought. It's
[02:39:27] a bit of a Russian roulette in that
[02:39:28] sense, right? So I would say why are you
[02:39:31] doing this? I mean you know is it we
[02:39:34] still far away from fully understanding
[02:39:36] the long-term consequences of these
[02:39:38] drugs. Everything that we have looked at
[02:39:40] indicates long-term effects
[02:39:43] >> in animals, in humans,
[02:39:46] longlasting rewiring of circuits,
[02:39:49] longlasting synaptic changes in neurons.
[02:39:52] I don't know if I would just be, you
[02:39:53] know, on a for the pure recreational
[02:39:56] value of trying something new. I mean,
[02:39:58] you could try many other things also,
[02:40:00] right? So, you could try for
[02:40:01] >> Would you try? Have you tried it?
[02:40:02] >> I have not. I have zero interest. But
[02:40:04] I'm like as I
[02:40:05] >> But because you're so curious about
[02:40:06] brain,
[02:40:07] >> have you ever has it not crossed your
[02:40:09] brain like you should maybe try Iaska?
[02:40:12] Maybe.
[02:40:12] >> What has crossed my mind is the
[02:40:14] following which is that if you can have
[02:40:16] altered states of consciousness that
[02:40:19] respond to a molecule like this and
[02:40:21] inherently your brain has the capability
[02:40:23] of experiencing altered states of
[02:40:25] consciousness.
[02:40:26] >> Yeah. And there are other ways to tap
[02:40:28] into it and those exercises I find
[02:40:30] particularly interesting. I've always
[02:40:33] found meditation an extremely
[02:40:35] interesting exercise to train your brain
[02:40:37] with.
[02:40:38] >> That's my chosen path because I think
[02:40:41] that there is much more room to direct
[02:40:44] where you will go then you do it
[02:40:46] molecularly with an external agent.
[02:40:49] >> So I would say that there are I mean
[02:40:52] it's opening your mind to the
[02:40:53] possibility of what all can happen with
[02:40:55] your nervous system. I would find other
[02:40:57] ways to do this. Not
[02:40:58] >> true
[02:40:59] >> not the drug. For me, this is my altered
[02:41:02] state of like like I love this. I'm on
[02:41:06] such a different high when every time
[02:41:07] I'm doing a podcast and conversation.
[02:41:09] >> I fully understand that and for me Z I
[02:41:11] mean I work with psychedelics. I work
[02:41:13] with giving psychedelics to rodents
[02:41:14] looking at the effects on the brain and
[02:41:17] I think they are very powerful molecules
[02:41:18] and they should be studied and
[02:41:20] potentially they may become relevant in
[02:41:22] the clinic either them or some
[02:41:24] downstream that comes from them. So they
[02:41:27] will move at some stage I think into the
[02:41:29] clinic but I think for a person who is
[02:41:31] just a regular human being who has no
[02:41:34] requirement at that moment for drugs
[02:41:35] that are treating a psychiatric
[02:41:37] condition perhaps these are very potent
[02:41:39] molecules and maybe you want to give
[02:41:41] them a bit of a wide birth.
[02:41:42] >> I was you know I was shamed for not
[02:41:44] doing it once
[02:41:45] >> really.
[02:41:46] >> Yeah. So I was in Colombia in Kartahena
[02:41:48] and I was there for one retreat like a
[02:41:50] conference sorts and after the
[02:41:53] conference the third day they had a
[02:41:55] beach day like that was half day the
[02:41:57] conference ended and they had like pool
[02:41:59] party or beach day and they were doing
[02:42:00] this gratitude practices etc. They made
[02:42:03] us stand in like four or five groups.
[02:42:05] Okay. Okay. So, one group, let's say 12
[02:42:07] people, 14 people group
[02:42:10] and there were the guy in the middle was
[02:42:12] an instructor who was apparently this uh
[02:42:15] >> retreat coach, therapist, whoever like
[02:42:18] some some healer kind of person, right?
[02:42:21] >> Was a very charismatic and charming
[02:42:23] personality by the way
[02:42:25] >> would hand over like shrooms to
[02:42:28] everybody with and chocolates which has
[02:42:30] something mixed in it. M
[02:42:32] >> they would give it in pairs. Ask people
[02:42:34] to stand in front of each other and then
[02:42:37] ask them to do like one two like some
[02:42:40] exercises like take it then do some
[02:42:42] exercises tap tap tap like for 5 minutes
[02:42:44] the whole ritual went in people stood
[02:42:47] said some gratitude something and then
[02:42:49] they they all went in water and came
[02:42:52] back running
[02:42:54] and then you would see like so many
[02:42:57] people were completely different who
[02:42:59] were loud they went shot. So in that I I
[02:43:02] backed out like I'm not doing it.
[02:43:05] >> So my partner was the one who was
[02:43:07] assigned like not my partner but like
[02:43:09] the one the random person who was
[02:43:11] supposed to be like who me and that
[02:43:14] person used was supposed to take Yeah.
[02:43:16] Like the pair we were supposed to take
[02:43:18] take it together was trending.
[02:43:19] >> Yeah.
[02:43:20] >> And they like shamed me like what why
[02:43:22] the hell are you here? Why this is like
[02:43:24] everybody just went in that direction.
[02:43:26] >> It has a little bit of the risk of
[02:43:28] becoming a cult. It looked it looked
[02:43:30] like we're starting a cult.
[02:43:32] >> This is my worry with it. This is my
[02:43:33] worry that when you are studying
[02:43:35] molecules of this nature that if you
[02:43:37] become cultlike in your view of whatever
[02:43:40] they do, then you're not giving it the
[02:43:42] respect that it deserves to find out
[02:43:45] what its positive negative all effects
[02:43:47] are. Right? I'm worried about that
[02:43:49] cultlike aspect of it. This is what
[02:43:51] worries me. It it looked like they had
[02:43:53] like a full ritual they were following
[02:43:55] and then
[02:43:56] >> the whole party I would see different
[02:43:58] phases of like 3 days I spent with those
[02:44:01] guys
[02:44:01] >> and I would see different personalities
[02:44:04] >> few were okay
[02:44:05] >> but few were on a different trip.
[02:44:07] >> Absolutely.
[02:44:08] >> Absolutely. They're very potent
[02:44:10] molecules as
[02:44:11] >> and I was heavily shamed for 3 days like
[02:44:12] next two days two more days I was
[02:44:14] >> I mean I have been asked this question
[02:44:16] by multiple people and my response was
[02:44:18] very straightforward. I have no desire
[02:44:20] to tweak with my nervous system
[02:44:22] unnecessarily. I I mean, you know, it's
[02:44:25] a complex enough organ. I have no need
[02:44:27] to unnecessarily go and yeah, tweak with
[02:44:30] it. Yeah. There's no need. I'm not going
[02:44:31] and tweaking my nervous system.
[02:44:32] >> And my in my head, the explanation was I
[02:44:35] don't drink alcohol because I don't want
[02:44:37] to get addicted. There's no way on earth
[02:44:39] I'm doing this.
[02:44:41] >> I don't drink alcohol either. And my
[02:44:43] point is precisely that I have no desire
[02:44:44] to kill. my neurons will die anyway
[02:44:47] because life is going to kill some
[02:44:48] neurons along. I have no desire to
[02:44:51] accelerate the process and cause
[02:44:53] additional neurons to unnecessarily die.
[02:44:55] There is no desire for that. And you
[02:44:57] know I what I find interesting though is
[02:44:59] that these molecules open the
[02:45:02] possibility of so the somebody did a
[02:45:03] really nice interesting study recently
[02:45:05] where they looked at deep breathing and
[02:45:09] whether the network activity in the
[02:45:10] brain with deep breathing is similar to
[02:45:12] what it is with psychedelics and it is.
[02:45:15] Now that tells you that essentially the
[02:45:17] network in the brain activity of the
[02:45:20] network in the brain goes to a
[02:45:21] particular state but there are many ways
[02:45:23] to also get to that state. The thing is
[02:45:26] all those other ways require work
[02:45:29] >> process right it it's not a fast
[02:45:32] solution like
[02:45:33] >> you induce and boom
[02:45:34] >> and that's transient right that that's
[02:45:37] transient so swami vivean said this
[02:45:39] actually someone had asked him saying if
[02:45:42] I can take this drug and I can see god
[02:45:44] then why do I have to do all these
[02:45:46] rituals or whatever meditation etc. So
[02:45:49] his point was actually very interesting.
[02:45:50] I might might not say it as well as he
[02:45:53] said it, but what the point was that
[02:45:55] okay, yes, you may take the drugs and
[02:45:58] have access to this mystical universe,
[02:46:00] but when you come back, you'll just be
[02:46:03] the same person you were, but it's when
[02:46:05] you do the work, it's the work that
[02:46:08] transforms you. Yes, you get that
[02:46:09] access, but it is the work that has
[02:46:11] transformed you. That process is not
[02:46:13] something you can eliminate and that is
[02:46:15] not to be sneezed at. Right? So the
[02:46:18] meditative work takes work.
[02:46:20] >> True.
[02:46:20] >> You have to sit.
[02:46:21] >> Breath work takes work. Yeah.
[02:46:22] >> It takes work. You have to sit with it.
[02:46:24] You can't just say I'll just get
[02:46:25] wherever you It will take time to get to
[02:46:28] that location. And that work is worth it
[02:46:30] for the brain.
[02:46:31] >> True.
[02:46:32] >> True. Here's the last question.
[02:46:35] How does a happy brain look like?
[02:46:38] >> You know, you're asking the hardest
[02:46:40] question ever for the two reasons. One,
[02:46:44] we have spent most of our time focusing
[02:46:47] on how a sad or a fearful or an anxious
[02:46:50] or an unhappy brain looks in animal
[02:46:53] models and in humans. We have a much
[02:46:56] better understanding of which part of
[02:46:58] the brain produces fear, which part
[02:47:00] responds to stress, where extinction of
[02:47:03] fear memories happens, where stress
[02:47:05] responses are controlled. We have far
[02:47:07] lesser understanding of which part of
[02:47:09] the bo brain is involved in the
[02:47:11] production of joy, contentment,
[02:47:14] happiness. If you ask me to point out
[02:47:17] now, show me the part of the brain where
[02:47:20] contentment
[02:47:22] or acceptance or resilience or joy
[02:47:26] reside. I will have I will struggle. And
[02:47:28] not just I will struggle, most other
[02:47:30] neuroscientists will struggle because we
[02:47:32] don't have a location. Much the same way
[02:47:33] if you tell me where does consciousness
[02:47:35] reside I will also struggle
[02:47:38] partly because those are things we still
[02:47:40] don't understand joy and happiness being
[02:47:42] an absolutely good example the closest
[02:47:46] we're coming is we beginning to
[02:47:47] understand where empathy may be
[02:47:49] regulated
[02:47:50] >> where
[02:47:50] >> so it's in the insula and those parts of
[02:47:52] the brain the insula is this this area
[02:47:55] so those emotions were beginning to
[02:47:58] explore but happiness contentment and
[02:48:00] joy you're asking the hardest questions.
[02:48:03] >> So you as a neuroscientist, you're
[02:48:05] telling me you have no clue how a
[02:48:07] completely happy brain looks like?
[02:48:09] >> No, because first of all to study
[02:48:11] happiness in a rodent is a a hard ask,
[02:48:15] right? It's a very hard ask. Even to
[02:48:17] study happiness in a non-human primate
[02:48:19] is a hard ask. What we do know is some
[02:48:22] parts of the brain that get activated
[02:48:24] when you are in a state of feeling
[02:48:25] happy. But those are many distributed
[02:48:28] circuits. There's not one location in
[02:48:30] the brain where you can say ah
[02:48:31] >> this circuit gets activated you will be
[02:48:34] happy.
[02:48:34] >> There are many distributed parts of the
[02:48:36] brain that are activated when you say
[02:48:38] you're experiencing joy or experiencing
[02:48:41] happiness. Happiness and joy are not the
[02:48:43] same but still
[02:48:44] >> but we have a much better if you tell me
[02:48:46] which circuit produces fear I can
[02:48:48] pinpoint it.
[02:48:48] >> Yeah you told me already it's right
[02:48:50] there right? If you tell me which part
[02:48:52] of the brain is involved in fear
[02:48:53] production or even motivation reward
[02:48:55] addiction I can point it out.
[02:48:58] We have disproportionately understood
[02:49:01] the negative emotions and where they sit
[02:49:04] and reside in the brain as compared to
[02:49:06] the positive emotions.
[02:49:09] >> Wow. I expected a very different answer.
[02:49:12] >> I wish it was a different answer.
[02:49:14] >> It's hopefully a motivation for all your
[02:49:16] podcast viewers. Maybe some amongst your
[02:49:19] gang of podcast viewers will be future
[02:49:21] neuroscientists and they'll say how is
[02:49:23] it that after so many years of studying
[02:49:25] the brain here's a person who can't
[02:49:27] answer this question.
[02:49:28] >> Is it more because of Freud's influence?
[02:49:31] >> No, it's just a consequence of the fact
[02:49:33] that negative emotions have been easier
[02:49:36] to study because they're easier to read
[02:49:39] out and there's an obvious readout that
[02:49:41] is evolutionarily conserved
[02:49:43] >> very strongly. Fear has been
[02:49:45] evolutionally conserved across species.
[02:49:48] >> It's easier to study.
[02:49:50] >> Interesting.
[02:49:50] >> Joy is a difficult one to study. First
[02:49:53] of all, it's hard to pinpoint any. Your
[02:49:56] fear, my fear, the responses are
[02:49:57] similar. Your joy, my joy are not
[02:50:00] identical and also very very different.
[02:50:02] >> Very difficult to figure out.
[02:50:05] >> Much more distributed, much more
[02:50:07] variant, much more heterogeneous, not
[02:50:09] conserved across species the same way.
[02:50:13] Hard hard question.
[02:50:14] >> Wow. What an end to the podcast.
[02:50:19] >> Very hard question.
[02:50:20] >> Wow. But thank you so much for spending
[02:50:21] time.
[02:50:22] >> So much fun.
[02:50:23] >> That was a lot of fun. I thoroughly
[02:50:25] enjoyed it. That was great fun.
[02:50:30] >> So yeah, go in there.
[02:50:32] >> Nice to see you.
[02:50:33] >> Hi.
[02:50:33] >> Hi.
[02:50:34] >> Hello.
[02:50:36] >> Pleasure meeting you.
[02:50:37] >> Can we get sanitizers as well?
[02:50:40] >> Yep.
[02:50:42] Is that the first time you've ever cut a
[02:50:44] >> Yeah, like first time I've seen a brain.
[02:50:46] What cut?
[02:50:48] >> You did very well. That was actually a
[02:50:49] very steady hand.
[02:50:50] >> It went smooth because I was expecting
[02:50:53] that I might end up puking.
[02:50:55] >> Are you serious?
[02:50:56] >> Ah, like for real. I was not able to
[02:50:58] take the I told you know my old factory
[02:51:00] my
[02:51:01] >> Yeah. You can smell the You can smell
[02:51:02] it. Yeah. It smells like how hospital
[02:51:04] smell. It smells
[02:51:05] >> you have a little bit of that
[02:51:07] formaldahhide kind of
[02:51:09] >> little bit of hospital but a little more
[02:51:10] than that like I don't know what it
[02:51:12] smells like. Thank you so much
[02:51:17] number one.
[02:51:24] Number two, please comment.
[02:51:34] And number three, episode.
[02:51:42] I'll see you next time. Until then, keep
[02:51:44] figuring out.