# Malcolm, historiani që i tregoi botës historinë e Kosovës | PRESSING | T7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41-0WUAdf5A

[00:00] Gip
[00:29] albal
[00:58] spe
[01:28] Mal.
[01:46] You come to studio?
[01:53] Um, interview.
[01:58] Um, interview.
[02:28] Fore.
[02:55] Um, I have to confess, I was not aware of this.
[02:58] Um, I have to confess, I was not aware of this, uh, but I'm very interested to hear this.
[03:02] Uh, but I'm very interested to hear it.
[03:07] Uh, the Roman remains in this whole area are very important witness of the deeply uh European origins of this whole civilization.
[03:12] Uh, the Roman remains in this whole area are very important witness of the deeply uh European origins of this whole civilization.
[03:17] Uh, it was through the Roman Empire that um the Albanian lands acquired Christianity at a very early stage.
[03:20] Uh, it was through the Roman Empire that um the Albanian lands acquired Christianity at a very early stage.
[03:22] Uh, the Albanian language acquired so many elements of vocabulary that come from the Latin.
[03:24] Uh, the Albanian language acquired so many elements of vocabulary that come from the Latin.
[03:27] Um, this is of of huge symbolic significance.
[03:30] Um, this is of of huge symbolic significance.
[03:34] Um, and of course, you know, I am not an archaeologist.
[03:37] Um, and of course, you know, I am not an archaeologist.
[03:38] My interest in history really starts after the Roman Empire with the Middle Ages, the Ottoman period.
[03:40] My interest in history really starts after the Roman Empire with the Middle Ages, the Ottoman period.
[03:43] Um, but I think it is very important for every society to know about its origins as far back as possible.
[03:46] Um, but I think it is very important for every society to know about its origins as far back as possible.
[03:49] And of course, in the case of the
[03:52] And of course, in the case of the
[03:54] And of course, in the case of the
[03:56] the case of the albanians uh these are apart from from albanians uh these are apart from from the Greeks the only people of the balans
[04:03] the Greeks the only people of the balans who have a clear origin in the pre-roman uh civilization the pre-roman societies
[04:10] uh in this case as you say dardanians uh who were a branch of the yans um so this is an extremely important important matter and I'm sure
[04:17] important important matter and I'm sure that archaeologists and and ancient historians will be looking at the implications of this very
[04:25] implications of this very carefully are you
[04:58] for for in my mind the balance of probabilities is strongly in favor of that explanation.
[05:19] uh I have studied the evidence of the modern scholarship as I say I'm not a specialist in the ancient period and I'm not a specialist in ancient ient Linguistics but basically for these questions you need two kinds of evidence.
[05:35] if possible one is archaeological evidence of objects preferably with inscriptions in the original language and the other is the evidence of linguistics which comes from analyzing place names uh particularly and some personal names where we have records for example in Roman history of the names of yian leaders.
[06:00] yian leaders and the studies that have analyzed very
[06:03] and the studies that have analyzed very carefully the place name evidence which
[06:05] carefully the place name evidence which is probably the strongest form of
[06:07] is probably the strongest form of evidence have found clear connections
[06:11] evidence have found clear connections between these ancient yyan place names
[06:14] between these ancient yyan place names uh preserved through Latin and uh the
[06:18] uh preserved through Latin and uh the modern Albanian
[06:20] modern Albanian language now on the archaeological side
[06:24] language now on the archaeological side we do not have direct evidence that can
[06:26] we do not have direct evidence that can prove that some physical remains were
[06:29] prove that some physical remains were yian how would we prove that ideally we
[06:32] yian how would we prove that ideally we would have inscriptions in the Yan
[06:35] would have inscriptions in the Yan language but these do not exist so the
[06:38] language but these do not exist so the archaeological evidence can never be
[06:40] archaeological evidence can never be conclusive about the yyan dimension but
[06:44] conclusive about the yyan dimension but I think the linguistic evidence is very
[06:46] I think the linguistic evidence is very strong uh and I've seen attempts by
[06:50] strong uh and I've seen attempts by other Scholars to pose different origin
[06:53] other Scholars to pose different origin stories for the albanians these seem to
[06:55] stories for the albanians these seem to be not convincing uh and to raise more
[06:58] be not convincing uh and to raise more problems
[07:10] M well as I said every society needs
[07:13] M well as I said every society needs to understand its Origins history is
[07:17] to understand its Origins history is history it it it it consists of facts
[07:19] history it it it it consists of facts which are there waiting to be understood
[07:21] which are there waiting to be understood waiting to be interpreted so this just
[07:25] waiting to be interpreted so this just in a general cultural sense is is good
[07:28] in a general cultural sense is is good and important to gain knowledge and
[07:31] and important to gain knowledge and understanding personally I would say
[07:34] understanding personally I would say this is not something to use in a
[07:38] this is not something to use in a political way um you know I have seen so
[07:41] political way um you know I have seen so many cases in different countries where
[07:44] many cases in different countries where people say oh we were here first and
[07:47] people say oh we were here first and therefore the other people are somehow
[07:49] therefore the other people are somehow in the wrong uh I've seen this in
[07:51] in the wrong uh I've seen this in Romania a country where I SP spent much
[07:55] Romania a country where I SP spent much time and done research uh
[07:58] time and done research uh Romanians clinging to a myth which I
[08:01] Romanians clinging to a myth which I think has been disproved that they are
[08:03] think has been disproved that they are all descended from Roman soldiers or
[08:05] all descended from Roman soldiers or ancient daans because they are obsessed
[08:08] ancient daans because they are obsessed with an argument about the Hungarian
[08:10] with an argument about the Hungarian minority in Romania and they want to say
[08:13] minority in Romania and they want to say we were here first these hungarians came
[08:15] we were here first these hungarians came only in the 9th century so they are new
[08:18] only in the 9th century so they are new boys they are just sort of recent
[08:21] boys they are just sort of recent arrivals to be honest I think that whole
[08:25] arrivals to be honest I think that whole political ideology is is is pointless uh
[08:29] political ideology is is is pointless uh we live in the present we live with
[08:31] we live in the present we live with people who live around us in the present
[08:34] people who live around us in the present so I would never apply these arguments
[08:36] so I would never apply these arguments to present day politics but I think just
[08:39] to present day politics but I think just as a
[08:40] as a historian I do feel strongly that it's
[08:43] historian I do feel strongly that it's important to understand everything about
[08:45] important to understand everything about the
[08:58] past
[09:09] well every society every culture is sort
[09:13] well every society every culture is sort of inside its myths to some extent you
[09:17] of inside its myths to some extent you know the French have myths about Jean D
[09:21] know the French have myths about Jean D Jon of AR um Americans have their own
[09:25] myths of their hero Founders um this is normal it is part of normal cultural
[09:28] normal it is part of normal cultural life and equally normal I hope is the
[09:32] life and equally normal I hope is the fact that the job of historians is to
[09:36] fact that the job of historians is to challenge these myths and always to push
[09:39] challenge these myths and always to push people back towards the evidence so do
[09:41] people back towards the evidence so do albanians have
[09:45] albanians have myths uh yes I have addressed some in my
[09:47] myths uh yes I have addressed some in my book um I
[09:51] think well well I
[09:58] think well well I think probably the most General
[10:00] think probably the most General myth is that always albanians were
[10:03] myth is that always albanians were fighting for
[10:07] fighting for Independence uh in some cases this is
[10:09] Independence uh in some cases this is true but as I've argued in my book The
[10:15] true but as I've argued in my book The League of prisen at the beginning was
[10:17] League of prisen at the beginning was not an independence movement it was a
[10:20] not an independence movement it was a movement to preserve a status quo which
[10:24] movement to preserve a status quo which the albanians of the Mali uh and the
[10:27] the albanians of the Mali uh and the kovo region enjoyed under the Ottoman
[10:30] kovo region enjoyed under the Ottoman Empire a status quo of de facto autonomy
[10:35] Empire a status quo of de facto autonomy because they were very difficult to
[10:37] because they were very difficult to govern difficult to tax difficult to
[10:40] govern difficult to tax difficult to recruit soldiers from and so they
[10:42] recruit soldiers from and so they enjoyed a level of local Freedom under
[10:45] enjoyed a level of local Freedom under the ottoman system and that essentially
[10:48] the ottoman system and that essentially is what they were defending at that
[10:50] is what they were defending at that point plus the important question of uh
[10:54] point plus the important question of uh giving some territory to Montenegro but
[10:57] giving some territory to Montenegro but at the beginning I think the Le pris was
[10:59] at the beginning I think the Le pris was not a campaign for an independent nation
[11:03] not a campaign for an independent nation and it was the reaction of the Ottoman
[11:05] and it was the reaction of the Ottoman authorities and the gradual growth of
[11:09] authorities and the gradual growth of influence of some of the more
[11:12] influence of some of the more intellectual members of The League the
[11:14] intellectual members of The League the frery brothers in particular this
[11:17] frery brothers in particular this gradually gradually moved the aims and the nature of the league in the direction of Independence.
[11:25] but at the beginning I think it it has been misrepresented so that that is a classic example because the league of prisen has a sort of foundational character uh when we look at modern Albanian Independence but I think often historians have looked at small rebellions sometimes big rebellions before that uh particularly in in Northern the northern part of Albania the Mal sea and every time they see albanians fighting against Ottomans they say aha this is National Liberation but National Liberation is a phrase that comes to us well from from nationalist modern historiography from communist modern historiography sometimes people were reacting against a new tax or a new attempt to to recruit soldiers um so I'm
[12:19] attempt to to recruit soldiers um so I'm not saying that no albanians wanted an
[12:21] not saying that no albanians wanted an Al an independent state there are
[12:23] Al an independent state there are examples of that and they go back
[12:25] examples of that and they go back further but I'm just saying the general
[12:27] further but I'm just saying the general tendency to attribute everything to a
[12:31] tendency to attribute everything to a sort of
[12:32] sort of single uh
[12:34] single uh Universal Timeless desire to campaign
[12:37] Universal Timeless desire to campaign for Independence this is unhistorical so
[12:41] for Independence this is unhistorical so you asked me to specify Albanian myths I
[12:43] you asked me to specify Albanian myths I think that is probably the primary one
[12:46] think that is probably the primary one that has shaped quite a lot of the
[12:48] that has shaped quite a lot of the writing of of Albanian
[12:57] history
[13:27] Fore.
[13:44] Well, let me emphasize first what I just said about modern historiography misinterpreting everything in the past as one simple uh struggle.
[13:55] I would say exactly the same thing about the historiography of the Serbs, the Bulgarians, uh, the Greeks.
[14:03] Um, my point was not specific to Albanians at all; it was a general point about how retrospectively there is this tendency to simplify everything to to one theme.
[14:18] Uh, but you ask about Albanians fighting.
[14:21] I mean, the case of Scanderbeg, uh, was perhaps the most famous in the whole of Europe of.
[14:28] famous in the whole of Europe of resistance to the ottoman State um and resistance to the ottoman State um and scanderbeg it.
[14:34] scanderbeg it is a matter still of discussion among scholars what the long-term political purpose was but this I think is a strong example of someone who did want independence from the Ottoman Empire um.
[14:52] whether he wanted it in the terms that we would think of now as a a modern nation state I'm not so sure but it was certainly a major Revolt uh over many decades against the Ottoman Empire and this created a reputation around the whole of Europe for the albanians as Heroes of uh fighting against the Ottomans and there were many subsequent cases um so I don't think there's any lack of of of Honor when one looks at the record in those terms.
[15:27] okay
[15:57] For fore well it was certainly fore well it was certainly uh an external invader at the uh an external invader at the beginning um it was an occupying power.
[16:36] Beginning um it was an occupying power at the at the beginning but it became a stable beginning but it became a stable administration uh and this just set the administration uh and this just set the framework for the existence of not only the Albanian people but other Balan peoples for many hundreds of years.
[16:54] So again as a historian I say we
[16:59] years so again as a historian I say we must accept the past it happened uh it's
[17:02] must accept the past it happened uh it's our job to understand it but I'm aware
[17:05] our job to understand it but I'm aware there have been some Modern political
[17:09] there have been some Modern political disputes um about
[17:12] disputes um about uh whether the ottoman Heritage and of
[17:16] uh whether the ottoman Heritage and of course especially the conversion to
[17:19] course especially the conversion to Islam of many people whether this
[17:21] Islam of many people whether this remains somehow alien I think this is a
[17:24] remains somehow alien I think this is a false a false approach um we are what we
[17:29] false a false approach um we are what we are and that is shaped by many hundreds
[17:32] of years of History um I remember years
[17:36] of years of History um I remember years ago a debate among Albanian
[17:39] ago a debate among Albanian intellectuals here and in
[17:41] intellectuals here and in Albania uh trying to one side trying to
[17:45] Albania uh trying to one side trying to argue that um the whole Ottoman and
[17:49] argue that um the whole Ottoman and Muslim Heritage was alien to the real
[17:52] Muslim Heritage was alien to the real Spirit of the Albanian people well you
[17:55] Spirit of the Albanian people well you could understand this then in political
[17:57] could understand this then in political cultural terms people wanted to reunite
[18:01] cultural terms people wanted to reunite with uh Western European civilization.
[18:04] with uh Western European civilization which they saw as Christian civilization.
[18:06] which they saw as Christian civilization they said we were a typical medieval.
[18:08] they said we were a typical medieval Christian.
[18:10] Christian Society um and everything went wrong.
[18:13] Society um and everything went wrong when we were conquered by these alien.
[18:15] when we were conquered by these alien Turks and so and now we want to forget.
[18:18] Turks and so and now we want to forget all that and start again as if it never.
[18:20] all that and start again as if it never happened I'm exaggerating a little but.
[18:22] happened I'm exaggerating a little but but that was the.
[18:24] but that was the mentality and my honest feeling about.
[18:27] mentality and my honest feeling about that is this is not realistic imagine if.
[18:31] that is this is not realistic imagine if you went to a country in South America.
[18:35] you went to a country in South America and you said well this terrible thing.
[18:37] and you said well this terrible thing happened Christopher Columbus arrived.
[18:39] happened Christopher Columbus arrived and then Spanish soldiers and this is.
[18:42] and then Spanish soldiers and this is why we speak Spanish and this is why we.
[18:44] why we speak Spanish and this is why we go to a Christian Church you know would.
[18:47] go to a Christian Church you know would it be serious politics to say oh well.
[18:49] it be serious politics to say oh well all of this is wrong and alien and we.
[18:51] all of this is wrong and alien and we must just you know pretend it never.
[18:54] must just you know pretend it never happened and just eliminate 500 years of.
[18:56] happened and just eliminate 500 years of our culture it's it's it it's not.
[18:59] our culture it's it's it it's not realistic we are what we are so the to.
[19:02] realistic we are what we are so the to go back to your question the ottoman
[19:05] go back to your question the ottoman state was in some ways um an
[19:09] state was in some ways um an administrative machine which did not
[19:12] administrative machine which did not make very strong demands on the people
[19:16] make very strong demands on the people that it ruled basically it wanted money
[19:21] that it ruled basically it wanted money uh from rent and taxes and it wanted men
[19:25] uh from rent and taxes and it wanted men for its Army beyond that it was not
[19:29] for its Army beyond that it was not trying to turn everyone into Turks it
[19:32] trying to turn everyone into Turks it was not even trying to turn everyone
[19:34] was not even trying to turn everyone into Muslims conversion was not a state
[19:38] into Muslims conversion was not a state policy um as you know Christians both
[19:41] policy um as you know Christians both Catholic and Orthodox and Jews were
[19:44] Catholic and Orthodox and Jews were allowed to continue to administer their
[19:46] allowed to continue to administer their own uh Church communities even in
[19:49] own uh Church communities even in matters of law some matters of law to
[19:52] matters of law some matters of law to administer those for themselves so it
[19:54] administer those for themselves so it was not a a a heavy burden uh it did
[19:59] was not a a a heavy burden uh it did what it did and over time it did it less
[20:03] what it did and over time it did it less efficiently and so there was more corruption and more abuse of power.
[20:09] and it's understandable particularly in the Albanian lands uh that some of this was resented especially where the treatment of Education was concerned um for reasons that are still a little obscure there was a policy of not promoting education in the Albanian language and I think that was a significant difference between the treatment of the Albanian lands and the treatment of for example Serbia or Greece um so yes there were definitely negatives.
[20:53] yeah this is a strange a strange fact and I've never never seen a detailed analysis of it um I
[21:05] detailed analysis of it um I mean it it it it may be partly because
[21:08] mean it it it it may be partly because the the churches well the churches were
[21:11] the the churches well the churches were relatively weak the Catholic Church did
[21:15] relatively weak the Catholic Church did have some schools but of course it it
[21:17] have some schools but of course it it wanted to teach in Italian because most
[21:19] wanted to teach in Italian because most of the priests came in uh from from
[21:22] of the priests came in uh from from Italy uh the in the South the Orthodox
[21:26] Italy uh the in the South the Orthodox schools wanted to teach in Gree
[21:29] schools wanted to teach in Gree um the the ulma the the the educated
[21:33] um the the ulma the the the educated class of Albanian Muslims uh had their
[21:36] class of Albanian Muslims uh had their own culture which they had acquired
[21:38] own culture which they had acquired which was uh in in ottoman Turkish and
[21:42] which was uh in in ottoman Turkish and for the elite also reading in
[21:44] for the elite also reading in Arabic and I think there was not a dense
[21:48] Arabic and I think there was not a dense enough network of urban Society in
[21:51] enough network of urban Society in certainly not in Albania to support the
[21:55] certainly not in Albania to support the sort of educated middle class that was
[21:59] sort of educated middle class that was developing in towns in places like
[22:02] developing in towns in places like Serbia Bulgaria and Greece um and you
[22:07] Serbia Bulgaria and Greece um and you know education was not itself
[22:10] know education was not itself um a serious business of the Ottoman
[22:13] um a serious business of the Ottoman State the ottoman state was not
[22:16] State the ottoman state was not responsible for setting up schools and
[22:18] responsible for setting up schools and making education happen it depended on
[22:21] making education happen it depended on other factors um but I think there was a
[22:25] other factors um but I think there was a sort of cultural prejudice against
[22:28] sort of cultural prejudice against against albanians uh using their
[22:30] against albanians uh using their language and this is a a somewhat
[22:32] language and this is a a somewhat mysterious factor which I I I I cannot
[22:56] explain
[23:26] for
[23:42] for yes as I said I think ottoman the
[23:46] for yes as I said I think ottoman the principles of Ottoman rule were in some
[23:49] principles of Ottoman rule were in some ways quite light they wanted to extract
[23:53] ways quite light they wanted to extract some money and some men and beyond that
[23:56] some money and some men and beyond that they did not have strong
[23:58] they did not have strong interests in creating a new Imperial
[24:02] interests in creating a new Imperial Society they were not very good at uh
[24:06] Society they were not very good at uh promoting Economic Development they
[24:08] promoting Economic Development they understood trade and um there were some
[24:14] understood trade and um there were some uh some uh improvements to some of the
[24:17] uh some uh improvements to some of the cities on the coast that did uh that did
[24:21] cities on the coast that did uh that did trade and produced Customs revenues for
[24:24] trade and produced Customs revenues for the state but in land they were much
[24:26] the state but in land they were much less interested uh as I said also in
[24:29] less interested uh as I said also in Albania itself um there was not a great
[24:32] Albania itself um there was not a great network of significant towns uh covo
[24:36] network of significant towns uh covo actually was more urban in the
[24:38] actually was more urban in the concentration of towns um but the trade
[24:42] concentration of towns um but the trade was mainly just passing Commodities down
[24:45] was mainly just passing Commodities down to the coast um and the revenue
[24:48] to the coast um and the revenue collection was was more likely to happen
[24:50] collection was was more likely to happen at the coast um I don't see a a sort of
[24:55] at the coast um I don't see a a sort of deliberate hostile policy there
[24:58] deliberate hostile policy there I just see the light touch of a rather
[25:00] I just see the light touch of a rather neglectful
[25:02] neglectful Empire um but I would say there are
[25:04] Empire um but I would say there are other parts of Eastern Europe not under
[25:07] other parts of Eastern Europe not under ottoman control where conditions in the
[25:11] ottoman control where conditions in the countryside probably had not improved a
[25:13] countryside probably had not improved a lot over the same period um we should
[25:16] lot over the same period um we should not make comparisons with you know the
[25:19] not make comparisons with you know the modern imperial history of uh you know
[25:23] modern imperial history of uh you know the British Empire or the French Empire
[25:25] the British Empire or the French Empire uh and perhaps not with the Roman Empire
[25:27] uh and perhaps not with the Roman Empire either um every Empire is of its own
[25:31] either um every Empire is of its own kind and in some ways the albanians
[25:35] kind and in some ways the albanians benefited from that lightness of policy
[25:38] benefited from that lightness of policy uh imagine if the Ottomans had had a
[25:41] uh imagine if the Ottomans had had a much more positive program of
[25:46] otomize today it's possible they would
[25:49] otomize today it's possible they would over 500 years have lost their language
[25:52] over 500 years have lost their language so it's very difficult to make these
[25:54] so it's very difficult to make these judgments going back over half a
[25:56] judgments going back over half a millennium um there's a kind of
[25:59] millennium um there's a kind of hypothetical speculation and after a
[26:02] hypothetical speculation and after a certain point it's it's very difficult
[26:04] certain point it's it's very difficult to to to be certain of what one says on
[26:08] to to to be certain of what one says on that
[26:10] that basis
[26:26] okay
[26:56] well the first question about
[26:58] well the first question about Force the general answer I think is
[27:01] Force the general answer I think is clear from a lot of good historical
[27:04] clear from a lot of good historical analysis based on documents in the
[27:09] analysis based on documents in the Istanbul archives and other kinds of
[27:11] Istanbul archives and other kinds of evidence the answer is no force was not
[27:15] evidence the answer is no force was not a significant
[27:17] a significant factor very exceptionally in some cases
[27:21] factor very exceptionally in some cases after a
[27:23] after a Revolt an area might have sort of
[27:26] Revolt an area might have sort of pacification
[27:28] pacification measures which could include at least on
[27:32] measures which could include at least on paper um making people convert but these
[27:36] paper um making people convert but these were absolute exceptions this was not
[27:39] were absolute exceptions this was not the normal
[27:40] the normal thing there are many studies of
[27:44] thing there are many studies of islamicization um in the early ottoman
[27:47] islamicization um in the early ottoman period it's a very complicated subject
[27:50] period it's a very complicated subject the general impression is that it
[27:53] the general impression is that it was almost always voluntary that the
[27:58] was almost always voluntary that the reasons the motives for individuals may
[28:02] reasons the motives for individuals may have been more uh social and financial
[28:06] have been more uh social and financial to some extent because non-muslims paid
[28:09] to some extent because non-muslims paid another tax the famous famous harach or
[28:12] another tax the famous famous harach or J but don't forget that when you became
[28:15] J but don't forget that when you became a Muslim you paid zakat the the arms tax
[28:19] a Muslim you paid zakat the the arms tax which was formalized um and Christians
[28:22] which was formalized um and Christians did not pay that um I think
[28:26] did not pay that um I think social uh uh I won't say pressures but
[28:29] social uh uh I won't say pressures but social incentives sometimes if a member
[28:32] social incentives sometimes if a member of your family had become a Muslim and
[28:36] of your family had become a Muslim and uh had had a good career and had
[28:39] uh had had a good career and had influence you might want to join him to
[28:42] influence you might want to join him to benefit more from his um his his help
[28:46] benefit more from his um his his help and his support um when a group of
[28:50] and his support um when a group of people in a village had converted some
[28:52] people in a village had converted some of the others might want to to join them
[28:54] of the others might want to to join them if they were the dominant group um
[28:57] if they were the dominant group um certainly the tax question at sometimes
[29:01] certainly the tax question at sometimes became a kind of financial pressure
[29:03] became a kind of financial pressure because although I think the general
[29:04] because although I think the general system was not heavily against
[29:07] system was not heavily against Christians um at times of War for
[29:10] Christians um at times of War for example they introduced special taxes
[29:12] example they introduced special taxes these would fall mostly on the the the
[29:16] these would fall mostly on the the the the non-muslim people so there are
[29:19] the non-muslim people so there are various factors now the one factor that
[29:21] various factors now the one factor that I'm not including very much is what we
[29:25] I'm not including very much is what we would think of as a religious native um
[29:29] would think of as a religious native um we when we think of people converting
[29:32] we when we think of people converting today we think almost entirely about
[29:36] today we think almost entirely about religious
[29:37] religious belief and this I think is anachronistic
[29:41] belief and this I think is anachronistic if we try to analyze the period of
[29:44] if we try to analyze the period of Ottoman
[29:45] Ottoman islamicization we know very little about
[29:47] islamicization we know very little about what people believed but religion
[29:50] what people believed but religion generally was it was a kind of uh social
[29:55] generally was it was a kind of uh social loyalty to your community and it was a
[29:58] loyalty to your community and it was a kind of magic you wanted to have prayers
[30:02] kind of magic you wanted to have prayers from a priest if your crops were failing
[30:05] from a priest if your crops were failing in a dry summer you wanted prayers uh
[30:09] in a dry summer you wanted prayers uh when your your father was sick in bed no
[30:14] when your your father was sick in bed no Islam could Supply that magic too um any
[30:18] Islam could Supply that magic too um any religion at that period depended very
[30:21] religion at that period depended very heavily on people wanting these kinds of
[30:25] heavily on people wanting these kinds of I say magic it's a simple word but you
[30:27] I say magic it's a simple word but you know these kinds of benefits which they
[30:30] know these kinds of benefits which they perceived so it was not such a huge
[30:33] perceived so it was not such a huge change in Practical terms and I don't
[30:35] change in Practical terms and I don't think it required people to have beliefs
[30:39] think it required people to have beliefs about you know do I believe in the
[30:41] about you know do I believe in the Trinity or not this is a very modern
[30:43] Trinity or not this is a very modern attitude so I'm sorry that's a long
[30:45] attitude so I'm sorry that's a long answer to your first question Force
[30:48] answer to your first question Force no conversions in of albanians in Kosovo
[30:52] no conversions in of albanians in Kosovo yes I think they came from both
[30:54] yes I think they came from both Catholics and uh orthodox um there were
[30:58] Catholics and uh orthodox um there were more Catholics generally but there were
[31:00] more Catholics generally but there were Orthodox albanians in parts of of of of
[31:03] Orthodox albanians in parts of of of of kosa as well and in some cases the
[31:06] kosa as well and in some cases the reasons involv
[31:20] another Well broadly speaking the
[31:22] another Well broadly speaking the Catholic element is stronger in the west
[31:25] Catholic element is stronger in the west um the area of of um well from prisin
[31:30] um the area of of um well from prisin going up to P um the the the Catholic
[31:34] going up to P um the the the Catholic element is stronger there people think
[31:36] element is stronger there people think of paa perhaps now as a sort of Orthodox
[31:38] of paa perhaps now as a sort of Orthodox Center because of the the Serb patriarch
[31:41] Center because of the the Serb patriarch but in fact you look at the population
[31:44] but in fact you look at the population returns um the Orthodox were a small
[31:47] returns um the Orthodox were a small minority in payer it was much more a
[31:49] minority in payer it was much more a Catholic a Catholic city um but the
[31:53] Catholic a Catholic city um but the other factor which I didn't mention
[31:55] other factor which I didn't mention before if people lack
[31:57] before if people lack Christian
[31:59] Christian priests that was a major reason for
[32:02] priests that was a major reason for changing religion because the priests
[32:05] changing religion because the priests were the people who did the magic I put
[32:07] were the people who did the magic I put it crudely but it was like that and it
[32:09] it crudely but it was like that and it was very difficult for the Catholic
[32:12] was very difficult for the Catholic Church to keep up the supply of priests
[32:16] Church to keep up the supply of priests to these places that for them organizing
[32:19] to these places that for them organizing this in Rome were very remote and
[32:22] this in Rome were very remote and difficult conditions were not good uh
[32:24] difficult conditions were not good uh these were very poor places and quite
[32:27] these were very poor places and quite often I've worked in the archives in the
[32:29] often I've worked in the archives in the Vatican and in Rome you see complaints
[32:32] Vatican and in Rome you see complaints we are not getting priests we cannot
[32:35] we are not getting priests we cannot survive without priests our people are
[32:37] survive without priests our people are going over to Islam because they are not
[32:39] going over to Islam because they are not receiving priests uh so that was quite
[32:42] receiving priests uh so that was quite an important factor at times um and to a
[32:45] an important factor at times um and to a lesser extent I think that was also true
[32:47] lesser extent I think that was also true among orthodox
[32:56] albanians
[33:13] [Music]
[33:22] yes that's an interesting question I
[33:25] yes that's an interesting question I mean there are some cases some villages
[33:28] mean there are some cases some villages in
[33:29] in Albania where there were crypto Orthodox
[33:34] Albania where there were crypto Orthodox albanians but the crypto Christians in
[33:38] albanians but the crypto Christians in Kosovo were all from the Catholic side
[33:42] Kosovo were all from the Catholic side um and again I think the main reason is
[33:46] um and again I think the main reason is the lack of
[33:47] the lack of priests in an important period which
[33:50] priests in an important period which also involved periods of very active
[33:53] also involved periods of very active warfare revolt against the Ottomans but
[33:57] warfare revolt against the Ottomans but Warfare the ottoman State against
[33:59] Warfare the ottoman State against Catholic Powers um the increase in taxes
[34:03] Catholic Powers um the increase in taxes at that time and think particularly of
[34:05] at that time and think particularly of the um 17th century and I think these
[34:08] the um 17th century and I think these factors
[34:10] factors led to a significant shift towards um
[34:14] led to a significant shift towards um crypto
[34:15] crypto Catholicism uh in parts of Western
[34:18] Catholicism uh in parts of Western Kosovo and some parts in the South yanev
[34:21] Kosovo and some parts in the South yanev that that that
[34:24] that that that area now it's a very interesting
[34:27] area now it's a very interesting phenomenon at the beginning it's clear
[34:31] phenomenon at the beginning it's clear that it involves a very interesting
[34:35] that it involves a very interesting gender
[34:36] gender divide the men who go outside the house
[34:39] divide the men who go outside the house have the public life um they convert on
[34:43] have the public life um they convert on the surface to Islam they have Muslim
[34:46] the surface to Islam they have Muslim names they go to the
[34:48] names they go to the mosque the women do not and the
[34:51] mosque the women do not and the continuity of the crypto Christianity
[34:55] continuity of the crypto Christianity depends on the women in the home they
[34:57] depends on the women in the home they are the ones who pass it on to their
[35:01] are the ones who pass it on to their children uh and their daughters will
[35:03] children uh and their daughters will remain non-muslim now this is made
[35:06] remain non-muslim now this is made possible by Muslim law which where it's
[35:10] possible by Muslim law which where it's perfectly legal for a Muslim man to have
[35:13] perfectly legal for a Muslim man to have a non-muslim wife but not the opposite
[35:17] a non-muslim wife but not the opposite um so in a curious way this phenomenon
[35:19] um so in a curious way this phenomenon is made possible its continuity over
[35:22] is made possible its continuity over Generations is made possible by by
[35:25] Generations is made possible by by Islamic law the difficult question to
[35:28] Islamic law the difficult question to answer is down many
[35:31] answer is down many generations when the Catholic Church
[35:34] generations when the Catholic Church eventually stopped visiting these houses
[35:37] eventually stopped visiting these houses because in the early 18th century the
[35:39] because in the early 18th century the pope issued a decree saying this is all
[35:42] pope issued a decree saying this is all wrong you know they must be proper
[35:44] wrong you know they must be proper Christians priests are forbidden to give
[35:46] Christians priests are forbidden to give them the sacraments and so on after that
[35:48] them the sacraments and so on after that point the interesting question is what
[35:51] point the interesting question is what was the nature of this Christianity that
[35:53] was the nature of this Christianity that they were practicing they were following
[35:56] they were practicing they were following Christian Catholic Christianity without
[35:59] Christian Catholic Christianity without the sacraments without priests without
[36:01] the sacraments without priests without the
[36:02] the mass is very difficult without
[36:04] mass is very difficult without instruction from priests as to what they
[36:06] instruction from priests as to what they were meant to believe I think it became
[36:10] were meant to believe I think it became eventually a sort of formula a
[36:13] eventually a sort of formula a formulaic kind of identity which made
[36:16] formulaic kind of identity which made them special which made them a little
[36:18] them special which made them a little Community among themselves but I think
[36:21] Community among themselves but I think it's probably anachronistic to say that
[36:23] it's probably anachronistic to say that when they came back and announced
[36:25] when they came back and announced themselves as Catholics in the 19th
[36:27] themselves as Catholics in the 19th century or even the 20th that they had
[36:30] century or even the 20th that they had been sort of so to speak normal
[36:33] been sort of so to speak normal Catholics all through those centuries I
[36:35] Catholics all through those centuries I think everything changes over
[36:55] time
[37:25] for
[37:38] well on the first point um there is
[37:41] well on the first point um there is clear evidence that albanians were
[37:43] clear evidence that albanians were present uh on the anti-ottoman side at
[37:48] present uh on the anti-ottoman side at the Battle of
[37:49] the Battle of Kosovo um however again I have
[37:53] Kosovo um however again I have to warn against
[37:56] to warn against M we're not talking about sort of
[38:00] M we're not talking about sort of national contingence representing
[38:02] national contingence representing something like a modern nation state um
[38:05] something like a modern nation state um the way armies were assembled in that
[38:07] the way armies were assembled in that period was very different there were
[38:09] period was very different there were Lords who could command so many hundred
[38:11] Lords who could command so many hundred men so many thousand men their personal
[38:15] men so many thousand men their personal interests loyalties could be decisive in
[38:18] interests loyalties could be decisive in whether they took their men to a battle
[38:20] whether they took their men to a battle or not um so yes there were there were
[38:23] or not um so yes there were there were Orthodox um slaves fighting against the
[38:26] Orthodox um slaves fighting against the otoman
[38:27] otoman there were Orthodox slaves fighting for
[38:29] there were Orthodox slaves fighting for the Ottomans this we also know um and so
[38:33] the Ottomans this we also know um and so it was a rather mixed picture but um
[38:36] it was a rather mixed picture but um it's clear that there were albanians uh
[38:38] it's clear that there were albanians uh on the anti- ottoman side as for the
[38:42] on the anti- ottoman side as for the person who killed the
[38:45] sultan I think in the end we don't have
[38:49] sultan I think in the end we don't have enough solid evidence to make a definite
[38:53] enough solid evidence to make a definite conclusion here um
[38:57] conclusion here um I I'm not convinced we have enough
[39:00] I I'm not convinced we have enough evidence to make a particular
[39:02] evidence to make a particular identification with an individual from
[39:05] identification with an individual from scander um the name itself is suggestive
[39:10] scander um the name itself is suggestive and it's been pointed out that um this
[39:14] and it's been pointed out that um this kobil element in the name is probably
[39:16] kobil element in the name is probably the word
[39:17] the word copil um uh which is a sort of VL or Al
[39:22] copil um uh which is a sort of VL or Al Albano VL word that is also very uh
[39:26] Albano VL word that is also very uh potentially
[39:27] potentially significant um but in the end you know a
[39:31] significant um but in the end you know a battle is a battle things happen if one
[39:33] battle is a battle things happen if one man didn't kill him perhaps another one
[39:35] man didn't kill him perhaps another one would have I cannot see that it it
[39:39] would have I cannot see that it it matters hugely to to you know have a
[39:43] matters hugely to to you know have a great National argument about the
[39:45] great National argument about the national or ethnic origin of this of
[39:48] national or ethnic origin of this of this
[39:49] this individual um it's a decisive moment for
[39:51] individual um it's a decisive moment for the history of Kosovo of course so it
[39:54] the history of Kosovo of course so it matters everything in the past matters
[39:57] matters everything in the past matters um but even if that battle had never
[40:00] um but even if that battle had never happened there would have been other
[40:02] happened there would have been other battles or other methods of long-term
[40:04] battles or other methods of long-term Conquest the idea that if if the
[40:08] Conquest the idea that if if the Christian side had had a victory a
[40:11] Christian side had had a victory a decisive Victory the idea that you know
[40:14] decisive Victory the idea that you know kosova would never have been conquered
[40:16] kosova would never have been conquered by the Ottomans I think is absurd you
[40:18] by the Ottomans I think is absurd you know this was a superpower on the Move
[40:21] know this was a superpower on the Move westwards northwards It would have
[40:24] westwards northwards It would have extended its power sooner or later
[40:26] extended its power sooner or later and of course the battle itself was was
[40:28] and of course the battle itself was was not decisive either way uh but it's just
[40:32] not decisive either way uh but it's just it's very important in symbolic terms uh
[40:36] it's very important in symbolic terms uh but it it it was a kind of draw between
[40:40] but it it it was a kind of draw between two exhausted sides and it's only the
[40:43] two exhausted sides and it's only the long-term strategic consequences that
[40:45] long-term strategic consequences that make us interpret it as as an ottoman
[40:55] victory
[41:20] foree
[41:25] Serv
[41:27] Serv well I have done some research on this
[41:32] well I have done some research on this and I think it's
[41:34] and I think it's clear that this Cult of vidovdan cult of
[41:39] clear that this Cult of vidovdan cult of Lazar The Cult of the sort of martyrdom
[41:43] Lazar The Cult of the sort of martyrdom of of of Serbia and um his famous speech
[41:47] of of of Serbia and um his famous speech in the poem about better to sort of die
[41:51] in the poem about better to sort of die in a glorious you know Die With Honor
[41:54] in a glorious you know Die With Honor and so that this is a much later
[41:58] and so that this is a much later invention um yes there were some popular
[42:02] invention um yes there were some popular songs about the Battle and about uh the
[42:06] songs about the Battle and about uh the death of tar Lazar and so on there were
[42:08] death of tar Lazar and so on there were popular songs about almost every major
[42:11] popular songs about almost every major event after they happened but if you
[42:14] event after they happened but if you look at the earliest versions of those
[42:16] look at the earliest versions of those songs they do not have this this
[42:19] songs they do not have this this National significance they do not they
[42:21] National significance they do not they do not present it um as a sort of
[42:24] do not present it um as a sort of national tragedy they're talking about
[42:25] national tragedy they're talking about the heroism of an individual uh fighter
[42:29] the heroism of an individual uh fighter in a in a
[42:30] in a in a battle vofan this
[42:33] battle vofan this saint uh is um now associated with the
[42:38] saint uh is um now associated with the the date of the battle but the day of
[42:40] the date of the battle but the day of the battle but the saint was added to
[42:42] the battle but the saint was added to the Orthodox calendar in Serbia in the
[42:45] the Orthodox calendar in Serbia in the 19th century nobody was celebrating
[42:47] 19th century nobody was celebrating vidovdan until then um the uh the the
[42:54] vidovdan until then um the uh the the the other uh claims about about a sort
[42:56] the other uh claims about about a sort of continuous tradition of celebration
[42:58] of continuous tradition of celebration of this day these fall away when you
[43:01] of this day these fall away when you look at them in detail so yes this was
[43:05] look at them in detail so yes this was an ideological development of the 19th
[43:08] an ideological development of the 19th century in a specific political context
[43:12] century in a specific political context when Serbian intellectuals were
[43:15] when Serbian intellectuals were developing their national case for
[43:18] developing their national case for freedom from ottoman Rule and building
[43:20] freedom from ottoman Rule and building up their own retrospective account of
[43:24] up their own retrospective account of battles against the Ottomans and their
[43:26] battles against the Ottomans and their own account of permanent National
[43:28] own account of permanent National Liberation struggles um and I think the
[43:31] Liberation struggles um and I think the evidence is clear that the when serbs
[43:34] evidence is clear that the when serbs say oh you know this has been essential
[43:37] say oh you know this has been essential fundamental to our identity for 600
[43:40] fundamental to our identity for 600 years and more um historically that is
[43:43] years and more um historically that is simply not
[43:55] true
[44:21] [Music]
[44:25] dict
[44:33] fig well he
[44:36] fig well he is an absolutely major figure in the
[44:40] is an absolutely major figure in the history of the early ottoman period in
[44:43] history of the early ottoman period in the Balkans there is no doubt about this
[44:45] the Balkans there is no doubt about this as I said he became the most famous
[44:48] as I said he became the most famous anti-ottoman fighter in the whole of of
[44:51] anti-ottoman fighter in the whole of of Europe was referred to and books written
[44:53] Europe was referred to and books written about him as far away as France
[44:58] so he's a figure of great historical
[45:02] significance I cannot see a
[45:05] significance I cannot see a justification for attacking him on
[45:08] justification for attacking him on Modern sort of Islamic grounds I think
[45:12] Modern sort of Islamic grounds I think this is massively
[45:25] about his
[45:27] about his motives about his his um his
[45:32] motives about his his um his interests um his
[45:34] interests um his aims um as I'm sure you know there was a
[45:38] aims um as I'm sure you know there was a a big debate in Albania some years ago
[45:40] a big debate in Albania some years ago when Oliver
[45:42] when Oliver Schmid uh published his big biography of
[45:45] Schmid uh published his big biography of of
[45:46] of scander uh Professor Schmidt is a real
[45:50] scander uh Professor Schmidt is a real expert on medieval Albanian history he
[45:52] expert on medieval Albanian history he had studied the original documents and
[45:55] had studied the original documents and and he said well there is a particular
[45:58] and he said well there is a particular political background to his Revolt to do
[46:01] political background to his Revolt to do with the position of his father who had
[46:04] with the position of his father who had been sort of losing his his traditional
[46:08] been sort of losing his his traditional power in the territories where he had
[46:10] power in the territories where he had been the major land owner and the major
[46:13] been the major land owner and the major political figure this is part of the
[46:15] political figure this is part of the background and um he said some other
[46:18] background and um he said some other things about gander's family background
[46:21] things about gander's family background as well that it was partly Orthodox and
[46:23] as well that it was partly Orthodox and I mean all of that was known by all ser
[46:26] I mean all of that was known by all ser historians had been known for for
[46:28] historians had been known for for generations and there was a rather
[46:30] generations and there was a rather absurd reaction of people uh saying oh
[46:34] absurd reaction of people uh saying oh this is a terrible attack on on scander
[46:36] this is a terrible attack on on scander no it's not an attack this is new
[46:39] no it's not an attack this is new interpretation of the kind that that
[46:41] interpretation of the kind that that happens all the time with in in serious
[46:44] happens all the time with in in serious history um and it doesn't change the
[46:46] history um and it doesn't change the fundamentals which is that this man
[46:48] fundamentals which is that this man fought Wars against the ottoman ruler
[46:51] fought Wars against the ottoman ruler for decades um so I think I you know I
[46:55] for decades um so I think I you know I don't see there's any reason to doubt
[46:58] don't see there's any reason to doubt the essential nature of our
[47:01] the essential nature of our understanding of scanderbeg as a leader
[47:04] understanding of scanderbeg as a leader of major revolts against ottoman
[47:22] [Music]
[47:24] [Music] power
[47:35] well I mean the
[47:37] well I mean the Albanian culture and sort of
[47:40] Albanian culture and sort of intellectual culture generally under
[47:43] intellectual culture generally under emoda suffered
[47:47] emoda suffered terribly uh for obvious reasons the the
[47:54] terribly uh for obvious reasons the the um elim mination of proper contacts with
[47:58] um elim mination of proper contacts with the rest of the world was made it almost
[48:01] the rest of the world was made it almost impossible for academic research very
[48:05] impossible for academic research very very rare for any historian to be
[48:07] very rare for any historian to be permitted to go to a foreign archive to
[48:10] permitted to go to a foreign archive to do work um this is fundamental having no
[48:14] do work um this is fundamental having no access to the latest books published in
[48:16] access to the latest books published in Western countries this was fundamental
[48:19] Western countries this was fundamental so the basic conditions were terrible to
[48:22] so the basic conditions were terrible to of of of all research but for historical
[48:25] of of of all research but for historical research of of course everything was
[48:28] research of of course everything was subjected to the demands of ideology and
[48:32] subjected to the demands of ideology and propaganda I think probably the further
[48:35] propaganda I think probably the further back you went from the present and this
[48:37] back you went from the present and this is true generally about communist uh his
[48:41] is true generally about communist uh his history the further back you went from
[48:43] history the further back you went from the present the easier it was to do sort
[48:47] the present the easier it was to do sort of serious objective
[48:49] of serious objective study um so it was probably easier to do
[48:52] study um so it was probably easier to do work on Roman archaeology under hoder
[48:56] work on Roman archaeology under hoder than it was to do serious work on 19th
[48:58] than it was to do serious work on 19th century or early 20th century political
[49:02] century or early 20th century political history but the ideology was plain it
[49:04] history but the ideology was plain it was dictated from you know principles of
[49:07] was dictated from you know principles of Marxism leninism um the and it's
[49:10] Marxism leninism um the and it's distorted understanding not just about
[49:13] distorted understanding not just about everything being a struggle for National
[49:15] everything being a struggle for National Liberation but also all this language of
[49:18] Liberation but also all this language of you know the feudal the feudal
[49:20] you know the feudal the feudal oppressors everything was both for
[49:22] oppressors everything was both for National Liberation and for social
[49:24] National Liberation and for social Liberation against the feudal
[49:26] Liberation against the feudal uh but you know this word feudal KL Marx
[49:28] uh but you know this word feudal KL Marx uses it because he's talking about
[49:30] uses it because he's talking about Northern Europe where you have a feudal
[49:32] Northern Europe where you have a feudal system it's very
[49:33] system it's very different with ottoman the the ottoman
[49:36] different with ottoman the the ottoman system um and so the it it was a
[49:40] system um and so the it it was a combination of two very powerful factors
[49:44] combination of two very powerful factors which do damage to um proper history um
[49:49] which do damage to um proper history um the Communist View and the Nationalist
[49:52] the Communist View and the Nationalist view uh and of course in some ways these
[49:55] view uh and of course in some ways these can diverge many anti-communists were
[49:58] can diverge many anti-communists were very strongly nationalist but communism
[50:01] very strongly nationalist but communism absorbed a nationalist ideology as well
[50:05] absorbed a nationalist ideology as well simplified it um and turned this into a
[50:09] simplified it um and turned this into a sort of fixed script which which every
[50:13] sort of fixed script which which every historian was obliged to follow so
[50:16] historian was obliged to follow so having said all of that I should say
[50:19] having said all of that I should say extraordinarily there were really good
[50:22] extraordinarily there were really good and serious Scholars who managed still
[50:24] and serious Scholars who managed still to do good research um publish important
[50:28] to do good research um publish important work the small number who were permitted
[50:30] work the small number who were permitted to go to Istanbul who could read Osman
[50:33] to go to Istanbul who could read Osman leer uh in the original manuscripts
[50:37] leer uh in the original manuscripts these people did some fundamental work
[50:39] these people did some fundamental work and there were others who who who were
[50:41] and there were others who who who were doing serious research but under
[50:43] doing serious research but under terrible terrible
[50:54] limitations
[51:22] well if I have to make a comparison I
[51:24] well if I have to make a comparison I would say that
[51:26] would say that uh Zogo was um clearly the better of the
[51:31] uh Zogo was um clearly the better of the two um but he was a
[51:35] two um but he was a flawed man uh with serious
[51:39] flawed man uh with serious weaknesses and uh his legacy is very
[51:43] weaknesses and uh his legacy is very mixed but zoru
[51:45] mixed but zoru was
[51:46] was [Music]
[51:49] [Music] um essentially he was trying to be a
[51:53] um essentially he was trying to be a modernizer he was trying to modernize
[51:56] modernizer he was trying to modernize a society which seemed very traditional
[51:58] a society which seemed very traditional very undeveloped economically in
[52:01] very undeveloped economically in mentalities and so on and he put a lot
[52:05] mentalities and so on and he put a lot of energy into social reforms um trying
[52:09] of energy into social reforms um trying to get investment trying to improve
[52:13] to get investment trying to improve infrastructure um trying to change um
[52:16] infrastructure um trying to change um Public Health
[52:17] Public Health policies um sending his sisters around
[52:21] policies um sending his sisters around the country uh Dressed in all their
[52:23] the country uh Dressed in all their western dress to persuade women it's not
[52:25] western dress to persuade women it's not necessary to wear a veil in the street
[52:28] necessary to wear a veil in the street you know we forget some of this because
[52:30] you know we forget some of this because we take it for granted now but um he was
[52:33] we take it for granted now but um he was a modernizer a little bit like atuk in
[52:36] a modernizer a little bit like atuk in Turkey but I think less um less
[52:41] Turkey but I think less um less oppressive I mean atuk really used his
[52:43] oppressive I mean atuk really used his power sometimes in quite ruthless ways
[52:46] power sometimes in quite ruthless ways zogu did not have that degree of power
[52:49] zogu did not have that degree of power but it's part of a generation of
[52:51] but it's part of a generation of politicians in that period of the 20th
[52:54] politicians in that period of the 20th century
[52:56] century um that this is what they saw their main
[52:59] um that this is what they saw their main program and fundamentally I think the
[53:02] program and fundamentally I think the intentions of that program were very
[53:04] intentions of that program were very good of course he wanted foreign
[53:07] good of course he wanted foreign investment for that and this Drew him
[53:11] investment for that and this Drew him into the uh the gravitational field of
[53:16] into the uh the gravitational field of musolini and musolini saw his
[53:18] musolini and musolini saw his opportunity and he saw some weakness in
[53:21] opportunity and he saw some weakness in Zog and uh he ended up by by taking over
[53:26] Zog and uh he ended up by by taking over much of the economy and then of course
[53:28] much of the economy and then of course invading um so the record is you know is
[53:31] invading um so the record is you know is not a happy one um but uh there it is
[53:37] not a happy one um but uh there it is it's it's a mixed record but I think a
[53:39] it's it's a mixed record but I think a very interesting one there have been
[53:40] very interesting one there have been good historical studies I'm sure there
[53:42] good historical studies I'm sure there will be
[53:43] will be more so it's not difficult to make a
[53:46] more so it's not difficult to make a comparison with a man like that and a
[53:49] comparison with a man like that and a man like en hoder um hoder was um a
[53:54] man like en hoder um hoder was um a creature of
[53:56] creature of Moscow uh he was not a great political
[53:59] Moscow uh he was not a great political thinker or activist in the first part of
[54:01] thinker or activist in the first part of his career he was a puppet of
[54:04] his career he was a puppet of Moscow uh I'm putting it rather strongly
[54:06] Moscow uh I'm putting it rather strongly but the documents prove this he was told
[54:09] but the documents prove this he was told what to do um he was told by by agents
[54:12] what to do um he was told by by agents sent to him from from Moscow Duan mugosa
[54:16] sent to him from from Moscow Duan mugosa and popovic these were were just agents
[54:20] and popovic these were were just agents who gave him his instructions and he
[54:23] who gave him his instructions and he used elements of nationalist Albanian
[54:26] used elements of nationalist Albanian nationalist rhetoric naturally against
[54:29] nationalist rhetoric naturally against an occupying force of Italians or
[54:32] an occupying force of Italians or Germans that was the obvious rhetoric to
[54:34] Germans that was the obvious rhetoric to use but at the end of the
[54:36] use but at the end of the war if Mo if Moscow had said now you
[54:39] war if Mo if Moscow had said now you must forget about an Albanian national
[54:42] must forget about an Albanian national state and you must just become part of
[54:44] state and you must just become part of some new sort of Balkan Soviet he would
[54:47] some new sort of Balkan Soviet he would have said yes because all through his
[54:50] have said yes because all through his career he had been promoted on the basis
[54:52] career he had been promoted on the basis of saying yes to what Stalin wanted
[54:55] of saying yes to what Stalin wanted um and then the rule that he actually
[54:58] um and then the rule that he actually had um well I don't need to repeat the
[55:01] had um well I don't need to repeat the obvious it um destroyed the freedom of
[55:05] obvious it um destroyed the freedom of the Albanian people they were held like
[55:07] the Albanian people they were held like prisoners in their own country they were
[55:09] prisoners in their own country they were prevented from contact with all sorts of
[55:12] prevented from contact with all sorts of positive developments in the rest of the
[55:13] positive developments in the rest of the world um it's it's it's it was a really
[55:16] world um it's it's it's it was a really terrible Legacy and it's impressive
[55:20] terrible Legacy and it's impressive that you know in the years since the end
[55:22] that you know in the years since the end of Communism albanians have changed so
[55:25] of Communism albanians have changed so much to free themselves from that
[55:28] much to free themselves from that [Music]
[55:54] Legacy
[56:08] [Music]
[56:19] well um I am often asked this question
[56:23] well um I am often asked this question and sometimes people say do do you have
[56:25] and sometimes people say do do you have an Albanian
[56:26] an Albanian grandmother um the answer is
[56:29] grandmother um the answer is unfortunately no um
[56:41] inter well anyway um uh I can't give a
[56:47] inter well anyway um uh I can't give a short answer to your question but I will
[56:48] short answer to your question but I will try
[56:50] try um you said I was a journalist before I
[56:53] um you said I was a journalist before I started my career as an acad academic at
[56:55] started my career as an acad academic at Cambridge University I taught there as a
[56:59] Cambridge University I taught there as a professor for for seven years and then I
[57:02] professor for for seven years and then I became a journalist in fact because I
[57:04] became a journalist in fact because I wanted more time to do my my research
[57:08] wanted more time to do my my research and the job the teaching job was very
[57:10] and the job the teaching job was very full-time teaching so I became a
[57:12] full-time teaching so I became a journalist in order to continue my
[57:14] journalist in order to continue my academic work no my academic work was
[57:16] academic work no my academic work was primarily on a completely different
[57:18] primarily on a completely different subject which was the history of
[57:20] subject which was the history of philosophy but I always had an interest
[57:22] philosophy but I always had an interest in the Balan regions and this started
[57:26] in the Balan regions and this started when I was a graduate student um I
[57:30] when I was a graduate student um I traveled to Balan countries um I found
[57:35] traveled to Balan countries um I found that at Cambridge my University there
[57:38] that at Cambridge my University there was what they called a language
[57:40] was what they called a language laboratory where you could just go there
[57:42] laboratory where you could just go there were courses with cassettes you put on
[57:44] were courses with cassettes you put on the headphones you you could take a
[57:46] the headphones you you could take a course just solo and learn a language so
[57:50] course just solo and learn a language so I started each Academic Year I would
[57:53] I started each Academic Year I would learn a Balan language and in the summer
[57:56] learn a Balan language and in the summer I would travel there for as long as
[57:57] I would travel there for as long as possible um I love Mountains mountain
[58:00] possible um I love Mountains mountain walking so I just found there was this
[58:02] walking so I just found there was this marvelous part of Europe with beautiful
[58:06] marvelous part of Europe with beautiful mountains
[58:11] and well uh I'm trying to remember um I
[58:16] and well uh I'm trying to remember um I did come to Kos before I learned Alban
[58:18] did come to Kos before I learned Alban so I mean I started with I think modern
[58:20] so I mean I started with I think modern Greek then Turkish then so then Romanian
[58:25] Greek then Turkish then so then Romanian um it was difficult to learn Albanian at
[58:27] um it was difficult to learn Albanian at that time in this wonderful language
[58:29] that time in this wonderful language laboratory there was no teach yourself
[58:32] laboratory there was no teach yourself Albanian course that did not exist and
[58:36] Albanian course that did not exist and so after I had learned other languages I
[58:39] so after I had learned other languages I began to be irritated there was this
[58:40] began to be irritated there was this very interesting part of the Bulan map
[58:44] very interesting part of the Bulan map and I cannot speak that language so I
[58:45] and I cannot speak that language so I went to a library I found a book just
[58:47] went to a library I found a book just teach yourself in the old-fashioned way
[58:50] teach yourself in the old-fashioned way so it was one of the later uh languages
[58:53] so it was one of the later uh languages I learned but but I did visit CA in the
[58:56] I learned but but I did visit CA in the late
[58:57] late 1970s um because then I had leared sooc
[59:01] 1970s um because then I had leared sooc cat um so I traveled around CA a few
[59:04] cat um so I traveled around CA a few times then when I was a journalist um I
[59:09] times then when I was a journalist um I started writing about events in the
[59:11] started writing about events in the Balkans I came to gazimestan in 1989 I
[59:15] Balkans I came to gazimestan in 1989 I wrote a big article about milosevic's
[59:18] wrote a big article about milosevic's speech there um and then when the war
[59:21] speech there um and then when the war started in Bosnia I was writing
[59:23] started in Bosnia I was writing commentaries analysis
[59:25] commentaries analysis there were many um propagandists for
[59:28] there were many um propagandists for Belgrade in the British media I got into
[59:30] Belgrade in the British media I got into many arguments with them and I decided I
[59:33] many arguments with them and I decided I would write a book because there were so
[59:35] would write a book because there were so many false claims and myths about Bosnia
[59:39] many false claims and myths about Bosnia and it was necessary to provide some
[59:42] and it was necessary to provide some objective history to to counter those
[59:45] objective history to to counter those and while I was writing the book about
[59:47] and while I was writing the book about the history of Bosnia which came out in
[59:49] the history of Bosnia which came out in the war in
[59:52] the war in 1994 while I was writing it I
[59:55] 1994 while I was writing it I thought when I finish this I really need
[59:58] thought when I finish this I really need to write a similar book for Kosovo
[01:00:02] to write a similar book for Kosovo because here are two cases okay the
[01:00:04] because here are two cases okay the details are different between Bosnia and
[01:00:06] details are different between Bosnia and Kosovo but the basic
[01:00:08] Kosovo but the basic similarity is that here are political
[01:00:11] similarity is that here are political disputes terrible disputes which will
[01:00:14] disputes terrible disputes which will lead to Warfare but almost every point
[01:00:18] lead to Warfare but almost every point that is made is a a claim about history
[01:00:22] that is made is a a claim about history it's not just a claim about some present
[01:00:24] it's not just a claim about some present day polic
[01:00:25] day polic so many of these claims go back to
[01:00:26] so many of these claims go back to history in the past and so I thought
[01:00:28] history in the past and so I thought it's very important so as soon as I
[01:00:30] it's very important so as soon as I finished the Bosnia book I went back to
[01:00:33] finished the Bosnia book I went back to the library and started doing research
[01:00:36] the library and started doing research on the history of Kosovo so and then
[01:00:39] on the history of Kosovo so and then luckily I I mean I was to be honest
[01:00:42] luckily I I mean I was to be honest don't tell my Bosnian friends this but
[01:00:43] don't tell my Bosnian friends this but to be honest the history of kov is a
[01:00:45] to be honest the history of kov is a much better book than the history of
[01:00:47] much better book than the history of Bosnia because I had more time the
[01:00:50] Bosnia because I had more time the Bosnia book it was in the middle of the
[01:00:52] Bosnia book it was in the middle of the war I had to work very fast and publish
[01:00:54] war I had to work very fast and publish it Bosnia was being destroyed for kosova
[01:00:57] it Bosnia was being destroyed for kosova I had more time I could go to many
[01:00:59] I had more time I could go to many archives do much more original research
[01:01:03] archives do much more original research read all the secondary literature so I
[01:01:06] read all the secondary literature so I felt much more confident of that book
[01:01:08] felt much more confident of that book and luckily it came out in
[01:01:11] and luckily it came out in 98 so just before the war in Kosovo and
[01:01:15] 98 so just before the war in Kosovo and I feel in
[01:01:17] I feel in retrospect that was very lucky because
[01:01:20] retrospect that was very lucky because you know politicians in the west they
[01:01:22] you know politicians in the west they then had a book what they could look at
[01:01:24] then had a book what they could look at as events were beginning to happen in
[01:01:27] as events were beginning to happen in the war in Kosovo they could take some
[01:01:30] the war in Kosovo they could take some book that was easily available in the
[01:01:32] book that was easily available in the English language and they could read
[01:01:34] English language and they could read about um these Serb claims from an
[01:01:37] about um these Serb claims from an objective point of
[01:01:38] objective point of view
[01:01:53] f
[01:02:23] fore
[01:02:49] [Music]
[01:02:53] me
[01:03:12] well uh difficult to say I mean when I
[01:03:16] well uh difficult to say I mean when I leared the languages of different Bulan
[01:03:19] leared the languages of different Bulan countries you know I am an academic
[01:03:22] countries you know I am an academic that's my Essential nature I suppose so
[01:03:25] that's my Essential nature I suppose so I didn't only learn them in order to
[01:03:27] I didn't only learn them in order to travel and to talk to people you know in
[01:03:32] travel and to talk to people you know in cafes or bus bus stations I learned also
[01:03:35] cafes or bus bus stations I learned also to read serious history books and so
[01:03:38] to read serious history books and so when I could read Serbian I went to the
[01:03:40] when I could read Serbian I went to the library I read books about history uh
[01:03:43] library I read books about history uh when I read learned Romanian I went to
[01:03:45] when I read learned Romanian I went to the library I read books about Romanian
[01:03:47] the library I read books about Romanian music which is one of my interests um so
[01:03:51] music which is one of my interests um so yes I became aware all through this
[01:03:53] yes I became aware all through this period um of the Tendencies of these uh
[01:04:00] period um of the Tendencies of these uh ideological historians in Belgrade but
[01:04:03] ideological historians in Belgrade but of course what made it an urgent matter
[01:04:05] of course what made it an urgent matter to examine closely if there was any
[01:04:08] to examine closely if there was any justification for what they
[01:04:10] justification for what they said this was was war war in Bosnia and
[01:04:14] said this was was war war in Bosnia and then the prospect of war in in Kosovo
[01:04:18] then the prospect of war in in Kosovo and the fact that these Serbian
[01:04:19] and the fact that these Serbian historical arguments had been
[01:04:23] historical arguments had been instrumentalized
[01:04:24] instrumentalized by milosevich um in his sort of
[01:04:28] by milosevich um in his sort of propaganda machine and a propaganda
[01:04:30] propaganda machine and a propaganda machine that was at first very
[01:04:33] machine that was at first very successful um because there was so
[01:04:36] successful um because there was so little knowledge of both Bosnia and
[01:04:38] little knowledge of both Bosnia and Kosovo uh in the world outside and some
[01:04:41] Kosovo uh in the world outside and some of the western academic Publications
[01:04:44] of the western academic Publications about the Balkans were written by
[01:04:48] about the Balkans were written by Western academics who were not
[01:04:51] Western academics who were not propagandists but they had trained in
[01:04:53] propagandists but they had trained in Bel Bel grade they their intellectual
[01:04:57] Bel Bel grade they their intellectual formation came from their teachers and
[01:04:59] formation came from their teachers and their friends in Belgrade they had read
[01:05:03] their friends in Belgrade they had read essentially Serbian history of course
[01:05:07] essentially Serbian history of course none of them had read Albanian history
[01:05:09] none of them had read Albanian history because they could not read the language
[01:05:11] because they could not read the language and very little Albanian work had been
[01:05:13] and very little Albanian work had been translated so there was a big sort of
[01:05:16] translated so there was a big sort of natural bias even among the Western
[01:05:19] natural bias even among the Western historians who were not consciously
[01:05:21] historians who were not consciously biased but it was just there so I became
[01:05:24] biased but it was just there so I became very conscious of this I mean finally I
[01:05:26] very conscious of this I mean finally I would just say you quote me as saying I
[01:05:28] would just say you quote me as saying I wanted to destroy Serbian myths yes but
[01:05:32] wanted to destroy Serbian myths yes but I did not actually write a history book
[01:05:35] I did not actually write a history book to be a propagandist myself um the job
[01:05:39] to be a propagandist myself um the job of a historian is to destroy all myths
[01:05:42] of a historian is to destroy all myths um and you asked me at the beginning
[01:05:44] um and you asked me at the beginning were there some Albanian myths and yes I
[01:05:47] were there some Albanian myths and yes I I've tried to show where I think the
[01:05:49] I've tried to show where I think the evidence does not support something that
[01:05:51] evidence does not support something that many albanians have believed I have said
[01:05:53] many albanians have believed I have said that too but I think it is a simple
[01:05:57] that too but I think it is a simple fact that uh statistically I could say
[01:06:02] fact that uh statistically I could say the great majority of myths relating to
[01:06:06] the great majority of myths relating to these countries are on the Serbian
[01:06:09] these countries are on the Serbian side um it it there's no symmetry there
[01:06:13] side um it it there's no symmetry there it is it is massively uh a question of
[01:06:16] it is it is massively uh a question of Serbian myth making uh in Serbian
[01:06:23] history
[01:06:53] transform
[01:07:15] well I have seen some of these claims
[01:07:18] well I have seen some of these claims and I have been puzzled by them um there
[01:07:23] and I have been puzzled by them um there may be some cases where an Orthodox
[01:07:27] may be some cases where an Orthodox Church uh is a more recent building and
[01:07:30] Church uh is a more recent building and on the same site in the past there was
[01:07:33] on the same site in the past there was something that was say an Albanian
[01:07:35] something that was say an Albanian Catholic Church in some cases that is
[01:07:38] Catholic Church in some cases that is possible minor cases but if you look at
[01:07:40] possible minor cases but if you look at all the major Orthodox Serb
[01:07:44] all the major Orthodox Serb monasteries we know their histories we
[01:07:47] monasteries we know their histories we know when they were
[01:07:52] built uh you know we have the the the
[01:07:57] built uh you know we have the the the histories of these buildings I mean
[01:07:58] histories of these buildings I mean Greta needo you know we have detailed
[01:08:01] Greta needo you know we have detailed architectural studies of the you know
[01:08:03] architectural studies of the you know the style and how this was built when it
[01:08:06] the style and how this was built when it was built um so I'm I'm mystified by
[01:08:10] was built um so I'm I'm mystified by this claim that they're all somehow you
[01:08:12] this claim that they're all somehow you know just stolen from some pre-existing
[01:08:16] know just stolen from some pre-existing Albanian um religious Foundation it's
[01:08:19] Albanian um religious Foundation it's not necessary to adopt that sort of
[01:08:22] not necessary to adopt that sort of argument
[01:08:52] for
[01:09:00] yes um your first question is easy to
[01:09:04] yes um your first question is easy to answer there is nothing that I would
[01:09:07] answer there is nothing that I would take
[01:09:08] take out
[01:09:09] out um I hope this does not sound like like
[01:09:13] um I hope this does not sound like like a sort of a boast but although I had
[01:09:16] a sort of a boast but although I had some very hostile reviews from
[01:09:19] some very hostile reviews from particularly from
[01:09:20] particularly from serbs um and from one or two historians
[01:09:24] serbs um and from one or two historians who had been trained by
[01:09:26] who had been trained by serbs I have not seen a single
[01:09:30] serbs I have not seen a single significant fact or claim in my book
[01:09:34] significant fact or claim in my book that has been disproved by by by critics
[01:09:38] that has been disproved by by by critics so I'm satisfied that I can keep
[01:09:40] so I'm satisfied that I can keep everything that is in the book so
[01:09:42] everything that is in the book so there's nothing that I would
[01:09:44] there's nothing that I would Omid for adding things well there is new
[01:09:47] Omid for adding things well there is new research all the time um on many aspects
[01:09:50] research all the time um on many aspects of History I cannot write a sort of
[01:09:54] of History I cannot write a sort of continuous constantly changing text and
[01:09:57] continuous constantly changing text and you know I have many other books that I
[01:09:59] you know I have many other books that I am writing or will write the question
[01:10:02] am writing or will write the question about extending the end of the book up
[01:10:04] about extending the end of the book up to the present or at least to
[01:10:07] to the present or at least to 2008 Yes I have thought about this um
[01:10:11] 2008 Yes I have thought about this um many times in principle it would be a
[01:10:14] many times in principle it would be a good thing to do um the book as you said
[01:10:17] good thing to do um the book as you said was it appeared in
[01:10:19] was it appeared in 98 one year Well already terrible
[01:10:22] 98 one year Well already terrible fighting was happening but a year before
[01:10:25] fighting was happening but a year before the actual NATO War uh in in in
[01:10:30] the actual NATO War uh in in in Kosovo uh and about three years no a
[01:10:35] Kosovo uh and about three years no a little later two years later
[01:10:37] little later two years later maybe um I was a visiting professor at
[01:10:40] maybe um I was a visiting professor at Harvard and I was contacted by the
[01:10:43] Harvard and I was contacted by the editor of New York University press
[01:10:46] editor of New York University press which published the American edition of
[01:10:49] which published the American edition of of the book and he said you must write
[01:10:51] of the book and he said you must write an update you know we want a second
[01:10:54] an update you know we want a second edition but it was um no actually it was
[01:10:57] edition but it was um no actually it was just one year later it was before the
[01:10:59] just one year later it was before the end of the war I think so yes after
[01:11:02] end of the war I think so yes after about one year and I thought well this
[01:11:05] about one year and I thought well this is so important so I did write an update
[01:11:07] is so important so I did write an update so there is a second edition which takes
[01:11:09] so there is a second edition which takes the story a little further but it does
[01:11:11] the story a little further but it does not even go to the end of the war and
[01:11:13] not even go to the end of the war and certainly not to 2008 and
[01:11:17] certainly not to 2008 and Independence but then if I did that I
[01:11:19] Independence but then if I did that I would need to write much more probably
[01:11:21] would need to write much more probably bring it to the present or much closer
[01:11:24] bring it to the present or much closer why stop there when we know what has
[01:11:26] why stop there when we know what has happened for another um 15 years after
[01:11:29] happened for another um 15 years after that and there is one thing that holds
[01:11:32] that and there is one thing that holds me
[01:11:33] me back I try to write a general history
[01:11:37] back I try to write a general history from the Middle Ages
[01:11:39] from the Middle Ages to the end late 20th
[01:11:43] to the end late 20th century every time I add another chapter
[01:11:46] century every time I add another chapter at the end the proportion of sort of
[01:11:49] at the end the proportion of sort of modern political analysis to centuries
[01:11:53] modern political analysis to centuries of of sort of History changes and it
[01:11:57] of of sort of History changes and it looks more and more like some book
[01:11:59] looks more and more like some book published by a sort of modern analyst
[01:12:03] published by a sort of modern analyst where the earlier stuff can then be seen
[01:12:05] where the earlier stuff can then be seen just as background some sort of
[01:12:07] just as background some sort of background information before we get to
[01:12:09] background information before we get to the real subject which is an analysis of
[01:12:12] the real subject which is an analysis of modern politics and that was not the
[01:12:15] modern politics and that was not the type of book that I wanted to write I
[01:12:17] type of book that I wanted to write I wanted to write something that could
[01:12:19] wanted to write something that could last a long time could still be referred
[01:12:21] last a long time could still be referred to could still be useful for readers
[01:12:25] to could still be useful for readers after 10 20 30 years and I fear that if
[01:12:29] after 10 20 30 years and I fear that if it becomes more like just contemporary
[01:12:31] it becomes more like just contemporary analysis it it its character will
[01:12:52] change
[01:13:20] for well in the president
[01:13:24] for well in the president circumstances of the policies and the
[01:13:28] circumstances of the policies and the attitudes of the major Western
[01:13:32] attitudes of the major Western Powers
[01:13:34] Powers um I think unification of kosov and
[01:13:38] um I think unification of kosov and Albania is not a practical option um
[01:13:44] Albania is not a practical option um there is too much worry and fear some of
[01:13:48] there is too much worry and fear some of it founded on very false assumptions but
[01:13:53] it founded on very false assumptions but nevertheless it exists uh among Western
[01:13:56] nevertheless it exists uh among Western politicians and diplomats and it would
[01:13:59] politicians and diplomats and it would be seen as somehow a very um risky and
[01:14:04] be seen as somehow a very um risky and destabilizing measure um and What kosova
[01:14:07] destabilizing measure um and What kosova needs most of all what the Western
[01:14:09] needs most of all what the Western Balkans need most of all is
[01:14:12] Balkans need most of all is stability um and we know what the main
[01:14:15] stability um and we know what the main cause of instability is and that is um
[01:14:20] cause of instability is and that is um Belgrade uh so I think the policy for
[01:14:23] Belgrade uh so I think the policy for kova now must be just to insist on
[01:14:27] kova now must be just to insist on stability um on consolidating the
[01:14:30] stability um on consolidating the existing state of affairs which can
[01:14:32] existing state of affairs which can never be changed back um but is still it
[01:14:36] never be changed back um but is still it is threatened with instability from One
[01:14:38] is threatened with instability from One Direction and this is a message which
[01:14:40] Direction and this is a message which has to go primarily to the EU which I'm
[01:14:44] has to go primarily to the EU which I'm afraid is in some ways facilitating the
[01:14:47] afraid is in some ways facilitating the Belgrade project um I mean I think not
[01:14:51] Belgrade project um I mean I think not from a sort of
[01:14:54] from a sort of policy against Kosovo but just from uh a
[01:14:58] policy against Kosovo but just from uh a degree of
[01:15:01] degree of um political
[01:15:04] um political insensitivity uh taking advantage of
[01:15:06] insensitivity uh taking advantage of their friends um which is all these are
[01:15:09] their friends um which is all these are always the easiest people to take
[01:15:11] always the easiest people to take advantage of so there is a problem and I
[01:15:13] advantage of so there is a problem and I think the key for Kosovo is to to keep
[01:15:17] think the key for Kosovo is to to keep up a message of long-term stability
[01:15:19] up a message of long-term stability where other states in the western
[01:15:21] where other states in the western Balkans can agree and should also be
[01:15:24] Balkans can agree and should also be lobbying the EU and the US that anything
[01:15:28] lobbying the EU and the US that anything that destabilizes Kosovo destabilizes
[01:15:31] that destabilizes Kosovo destabilizes the whole region this is a regional
[01:15:33] the whole region this is a regional issue and the EU should be thinking of
[01:15:35] issue and the EU should be thinking of it like that and not just thinking oh
[01:15:37] it like that and not just thinking oh there's some little dialogue going on
[01:15:38] there's some little dialogue going on here and perhaps it will work if we just
[01:15:41] here and perhaps it will work if we just push Kosovo even harder I think that's a
[01:15:43] push Kosovo even harder I think that's a very mistaken policy but you ask about
[01:15:46] very mistaken policy but you ask about the future of Kosovo more
[01:15:50] generally well we're living in very very
[01:15:54] generally well we're living in very very difficult times now after the invasion
[01:15:56] difficult times now after the invasion of
[01:15:58] of Ukraine and I think what we're seeing is
[01:16:00] Ukraine and I think what we're seeing is that the world is
[01:16:03] that the world is becoming rapidly much more
[01:16:08] polarized Kosovo is very clearly has
[01:16:12] polarized Kosovo is very clearly has always been very clearly on one side
[01:16:15] always been very clearly on one side it's a very Pro Western State like
[01:16:18] it's a very Pro Western State like Albania and sort of just in the ordinary
[01:16:20] Albania and sort of just in the ordinary culture um positive feelings about
[01:16:23] culture um positive feelings about United States about um Britain I think
[01:16:27] United States about um Britain I think um about the West uh these are at very
[01:16:31] um about the West uh these are at very high levels much better than some other
[01:16:33] high levels much better than some other countries in southeast Europe
[01:16:37] countries in southeast Europe um as the world becomes more polarized
[01:16:40] um as the world becomes more polarized the West will start thinking more
[01:16:42] the West will start thinking more seriously about who are its
[01:16:45] seriously about who are its friends and who are not its friends I
[01:16:48] friends and who are not its friends I will not to avoid you know provocations
[01:16:51] will not to avoid you know provocations I will not quite say any enemies but
[01:16:54] I will not quite say any enemies but Belgrade has a very dubious position now
[01:16:58] Belgrade has a very dubious position now refusing to sanction Moscow um keeping
[01:17:02] refusing to sanction Moscow um keeping up close relations with Putin um uh VES
[01:17:07] up close relations with Putin um uh VES going off to to Beijing for the belon
[01:17:10] going off to to Beijing for the belon road conference the other day not to the
[01:17:12] road conference the other day not to the meeting of the western Balkans Leaders
[01:17:14] meeting of the western Balkans Leaders with with the EU there are clear
[01:17:17] with with the EU there are clear messages coming out of
[01:17:19] messages coming out of Belgrade which are that it seems almost
[01:17:22] Belgrade which are that it seems almost to prefer maintaining its good relations
[01:17:25] to prefer maintaining its good relations with with Putin and perhaps also with
[01:17:27] with with Putin and perhaps also with the G of China um in this increasing
[01:17:33] the G of China um in this increasing polarization uh one of the strengths of
[01:17:36] polarization uh one of the strengths of Koso is that it is known to be a very
[01:17:39] Koso is that it is known to be a very pro-western State and I think in the
[01:17:41] pro-western State and I think in the long term when when things change
[01:17:44] long term when when things change perhaps for the worse that will become
[01:17:46] perhaps for the worse that will become more and more
[01:17:52] important
[01:18:21] for
[01:18:43] well I don't think there is any
[01:18:44] well I don't think there is any fundamental hostility to
[01:18:47] fundamental hostility to cover but I think there is
[01:18:50] cover but I think there is just a seriously
[01:18:54] just a seriously mistaken policy
[01:18:57] mistaken policy strategy I say strategy I think it's
[01:18:59] strategy I say strategy I think it's more than just short-term tactic it is a
[01:19:03] more than just short-term tactic it is a policy
[01:19:05] policy strategy it's based on the idea that um
[01:19:09] strategy it's based on the idea that um Serbia is in some ways the most
[01:19:11] Serbia is in some ways the most important of the states in the
[01:19:14] important of the states in the Balkans uh I think that is very
[01:19:17] Balkans uh I think that is very questionable it's based partly on the
[01:19:19] questionable it's based partly on the idea that Serbia
[01:19:23] idea that Serbia is desperate to join the uh European
[01:19:26] is desperate to join the uh European union and that in the long term this
[01:19:29] union and that in the long term this incentive must have the effect and so in
[01:19:33] incentive must have the effect and so in some ways they take for granted the
[01:19:34] some ways they take for granted the long-term cooperation of Serbia I think
[01:19:37] long-term cooperation of Serbia I think that is very doubtful um and it's based
[01:19:41] that is very doubtful um and it's based on the idea that if they just try to
[01:19:44] on the idea that if they just try to push what they call these these
[01:19:46] push what they call these these technical agreements uh and what they
[01:19:49] technical agreements uh and what they think of as a sort of a number of
[01:19:52] think of as a sort of a number of technical dialogue issues between
[01:19:54] technical dialogue issues between Belgrade and Pisa that doing more and
[01:19:57] Belgrade and Pisa that doing more and more of this will bring with it a new
[01:20:01] more of this will bring with it a new spirit of cooperation a new spirit of
[01:20:03] spirit of cooperation a new spirit of normalization between the two and that
[01:20:06] normalization between the two and that by just keeping to these relatively
[01:20:09] by just keeping to these relatively lowlevel issues you build up a different
[01:20:12] lowlevel issues you build up a different psychology where Serbia will accept
[01:20:14] psychology where Serbia will accept Kosovo as an equal and that is
[01:20:16] Kosovo as an equal and that is completely mistaken and we see it's
[01:20:18] completely mistaken and we see it's mistaken because Serbia has its own
[01:20:20] mistaken because Serbia has its own agenda uh it has its own agenda on all
[01:20:23] agenda uh it has its own agenda on all three of those things plus as I said its
[01:20:26] three of those things plus as I said its strong connections with Moscow I think
[01:20:28] strong connections with Moscow I think there will come a point when the EU will
[01:20:33] there will come a point when the EU will need to say to
[01:20:35] need to say to Belgrade look you have a choice do you
[01:20:39] Belgrade look you have a choice do you want eventually to join the EU or do you
[01:20:44] want eventually to join the EU or do you want to maintain your claim over the
[01:20:47] want to maintain your claim over the territory of Kosovo you cannot have both
[01:20:50] territory of Kosovo you cannot have both you must choose between those two no I
[01:20:53] you must choose between those two no I don't believe they have put the question
[01:20:55] don't believe they have put the question as simply as that yet to Serbia but as
[01:20:59] as simply as that yet to Serbia but as their attempts to manipulate Serbia on
[01:21:01] their attempts to manipulate Serbia on these false
[01:21:02] these false assumptions continue to
[01:21:05] assumptions continue to fail and even after giving concession
[01:21:07] fail and even after giving concession and Concession one after another to
[01:21:10] and Concession one after another to Serbia they see that they fail they're
[01:21:12] Serbia they see that they fail they're not getting the result they
[01:21:14] not getting the result they want eventually they will have to ask
[01:21:17] want eventually they will have to ask that
[01:21:17] that question um and if Serbia says well we
[01:21:21] question um and if Serbia says well we would rather just must um maintain our
[01:21:23] would rather just must um maintain our claim to Kosovo at that point the EU can
[01:21:27] claim to Kosovo at that point the EU can stop trying to please Serbia because it
[01:21:30] stop trying to please Serbia because it knows it's getting nowhere with those
[01:21:32] knows it's getting nowhere with those tactics then it can try a completely
[01:21:34] tactics then it can try a completely different
[01:21:51] strategy
[01:22:04] I think in theory it is possible to have
[01:22:07] I think in theory it is possible to have peace without
[01:22:09] peace without recognition but that applies only in a
[01:22:12] recognition but that applies only in a situation where the political leadership
[01:22:15] situation where the political leadership in Serbia and perhaps the sort of
[01:22:18] in Serbia and perhaps the sort of political class more
[01:22:20] political class more generally in their hearts accept the
[01:22:24] generally in their hearts accept the reality accept the fact that a scenario
[01:22:28] reality accept the fact that a scenario where Kosovo becomes just a province of
[01:22:31] where Kosovo becomes just a province of Serbia again is completely impossible it
[01:22:35] Serbia again is completely impossible it will never happen you know that I know
[01:22:38] will never happen you know that I know that they know it in London in in
[01:22:41] that they know it in London in in Washington in Paris even in Brussels
[01:22:44] Washington in Paris even in Brussels they know that and even in the five uh
[01:22:47] they know that and even in the five uh EU countries that do not recognize
[01:22:49] EU countries that do not recognize Kosovo I think they know
[01:22:51] Kosovo I think they know that
[01:22:53] that if they really understood that in
[01:22:54] if they really understood that in Belgrade and accepted it and changed
[01:22:57] Belgrade and accepted it and changed their underlying
[01:22:58] their underlying psychology then it might be possible to
[01:23:01] psychology then it might be possible to have peaceful relations the kind of
[01:23:04] have peaceful relations the kind of situation that they aimed at when they
[01:23:06] situation that they aimed at when they tried to copy the old agreement between
[01:23:08] tried to copy the old agreement between West Germany and East Germany um these
[01:23:12] West Germany and East Germany um these things might be possible but I said that
[01:23:15] things might be possible but I said that is a theoretical situation it does not
[01:23:17] is a theoretical situation it does not apply to the the political leadership
[01:23:20] apply to the the political leadership now in Belgrade um so So my answer in
[01:23:24] now in Belgrade um so So my answer in relation to the real existing situation
[01:23:27] relation to the real existing situation is no I think you will not have full
[01:23:30] is no I think you will not have full piece between the two without the basic
[01:23:34] piece between the two without the basic recognition of the independence of covo
[01:23:36] recognition of the independence of covo and that is a very unfortunate fact but
[01:23:38] and that is a very unfortunate fact but the responsibility for it lies entirely
[01:23:41] the responsibility for it lies entirely on
[01:23:51] Belgrade
[01:24:08] [Music]
[01:24:21] I
[01:24:34] for well thank you
[01:24:38] for well thank you the the argument Hobbs was making when
[01:24:42] the the argument Hobbs was making when he gave his famous description of what
[01:24:45] he gave his famous description of what he called the state of
[01:24:47] he called the state of nature uh the natural state of
[01:24:50] nature uh the natural state of mankind uh War of all against all life
[01:24:54] mankind uh War of all against all life of man nasty poor brutish and
[01:24:59] of man nasty poor brutish and short he was describing a
[01:25:02] short he was describing a theoretical existence without a state
[01:25:05] theoretical existence without a state without laws uh without any political
[01:25:09] without laws uh without any political framework uh where people he was trying
[01:25:11] framework uh where people he was trying to illustrate how important it is to
[01:25:13] to illustrate how important it is to live within a stable state where you do
[01:25:16] live within a stable state where you do have laws you have Justice uh where
[01:25:19] have laws you have Justice uh where Society can grow in that in that phrase
[01:25:23] Society can grow in that in that phrase workk however he said this does not
[01:25:27] workk however he said this does not exist in the real world everywhere we
[01:25:29] exist in the real world everywhere we live in societies we have political
[01:25:31] live in societies we have political Authority but there is an approximate
[01:25:34] Authority but there is an approximate analogy to what I'm describing here and
[01:25:37] analogy to what I'm describing here and that is the relationship between states
[01:25:40] that is the relationship between states so international relations now he was
[01:25:43] so international relations now he was not saying international relations are
[01:25:46] not saying international relations are totally a state of War he wrote about
[01:25:49] totally a state of War he wrote about treaties and alliances about how it was
[01:25:52] treaties and alliances about how it was good practice to develop um a kind of
[01:25:56] good practice to develop um a kind of international law framework as well but
[01:25:58] international law framework as well but he said that in the end when one state
[01:26:01] he said that in the end when one state wants to fight another state well there
[01:26:04] wants to fight another state well there is no superstate over them to to tell
[01:26:08] is no superstate over them to to tell them to stop and it will come down to to
[01:26:11] them to stop and it will come down to to force in the final analysis so this is a
[01:26:14] force in the final analysis so this is a truth that has been with us for the
[01:26:17] truth that has been with us for the whole of human history and tragically
[01:26:19] whole of human history and tragically we're seeing it happen now in Ukraine
[01:26:23] we're seeing it happen now in Ukraine um and with slight variations of course
[01:26:26] um and with slight variations of course what what what um you know the very
[01:26:29] what what what um you know the very specific situation uh with Israel and
[01:26:34] specific situation uh with Israel and Palestine um but I don't think it's a
[01:26:37] Palestine um but I don't think it's a reason to feel that um you know we can
[01:26:41] reason to feel that um you know we can never have stability um European States
[01:26:45] never have stability um European States generally uh the states that we now call
[01:26:48] generally uh the states that we now call the West have had stability since the
[01:26:50] the West have had stability since the second world war there is no reason why
[01:26:52] second world war there is no reason why they should go to war among themselves
[01:26:56] they should go to war among themselves um the future of kosa lies in that
[01:26:58] um the future of kosa lies in that Western block of stable democracies um
[01:27:03] Western block of stable democracies um and I'm confident that the future of
[01:27:04] and I'm confident that the future of Kosovo will will be fulfilled
[01:27:14] there thank you thank
[01:27:18] you