# John Gotti’s Hitman Exposes The Dark Side of Mafia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBvKTO-VyK4
Translation: zh-CN

[00:00] There's a lot of people out there that think they know the mob.
  很多人认为他们了解黑手党。

[00:04] So you've killed all these guys.
  所以你杀了所有这些人。

[00:06] I mean it's not a short list of people.
  我是说，这名单上的人可不少。

[00:07] It's easy for me to hurt somebody or kill somebody.
  对我来说，伤害别人或杀人很容易。

[00:09] That's the easy part.
  那是容易的部分。

[00:11] Did somebody say did you kill Johnny Gebert, Bruce Cutler, Paul G, Nicky Pasquale, Kenny Nicole?
  有人问你是否杀了Johnny Gebert、Bruce Cutler、Paul G、Nicky Pasquale、Kenny Nicole吗？

[00:15] Yes, I did.
  是的，我杀了。

[00:18] I was loyal to the mob.
  我曾忠于黑手党。

[00:20] They betrayed me.
  他们背叛了我。

[00:22] When you can't trust somebody, you don't say it.
  当你不能信任某人时，你不会说出来。

[00:24] They shut these people up that don't know what they're talking about.
  他们让那些不知道自己在说什么的人闭嘴。

[00:25] John, you're saying you were bigger than Gotti Sr. and Jr.?
  约翰，你是说你比Gotti Sr.和Jr.还厉害吗？

[00:30] He doesn't belong in this life.
  他不属于这种生活。

[00:32] There is no honor.
  没有荣誉。

[00:32] It's treachery.
  这是背叛。

[00:34] There is no love.
  没有爱。

[00:34] It's only about money.
  这只关乎金钱。

[00:36] It's only about an individual surviving.
  这只关乎个人生存。

[00:37] It happened the police just stumbled on us.
  碰巧警察发现了我们。

[00:39] They were coming in that direction of shooting.
  他们正朝着那个方向射击过来。

[00:41] And I start hopping on my feet and I leave the car so the cops can't go by.
  我开始跑起来，离开车子，这样警察就无法通过。

[00:45] I get cross Atlantic Avenue.
  我穿过大西洋大道。

[00:47] I start jumping fences in backyards and I'm taking the gun apart and dropping it in the sewers as I'm running.
  我开始跳过院子里的篱笆，一边跑一边拆卸枪支并将其扔进下水道。

[00:52] Do you still miss any of it?
  你还怀念其中的任何一部分吗？

[00:53] Anybody that says they don't miss the life is a liar.
  任何说他们不怀念这种生活的人都是骗子。

[01:33] So today I have John Alite with me as a guest.
  今天我和约翰·阿里特一起作为嘉宾。

[01:37] John Alite was part of the Gambino family as an associate.
  约翰·阿里特曾是甘比诺家族的联络人。

[01:39] He was working directly with John Gotti Jr.
  他直接与小约翰·戈蒂共事。

[01:41] They were good friends from early on, teenagers, and he's been known as one of the main hitman of the Gambino family, if not the main hitman.
  他们从很早就认识了，还是十几岁的时候，他就被认为是甘比诺家族的主要杀手之一，如果不是主要杀手的话。

[01:50] And so today's conversation is going to be more the mafia series.
  所以今天的谈话将更多地围绕黑手党系列展开。

[01:53] Having said that, here's John Alite.
  话虽如此，约翰·阿里特来了。

[01:55] John, thanks for coming out.
  约翰，谢谢你来。

[01:56] Thank you for having me.
  谢谢你邀请我。

[01:57] I appreciate it.
  我很感激。

[01:57] So you know, one of the questions before we get into uh uh uh everything that we got, how did you even get into having a relationship with John Gotti Jr.?
  所以你知道，在我们深入探讨我们所拥有的一切之前，有一个问题是，你是如何与小约翰·戈蒂建立关系的？

[02:05] How did that connection connection take place with the two of you?
  你们两个是如何建立联系的？

[02:07] Uh I grew up back in Woodhaven, Queens, Jamaica Avenue.
  呃，我在皇后区的伍德海文，牙买加大道长大。

[02:10] And I grew up around the mob.
  我在黑手党周围长大。

[02:12] So before Gotti Sr. Jr.'s father took over the mob in in our area as the boss, Andy, Fat Andy Ruggiano, was the boss, who I was close with the family, with the sons.
  所以在戈蒂父子接管我们地区的黑手党成为老大之前，安迪，胖安迪·鲁吉亚诺是老大，我和他的家人，他的儿子们关系很好。

[02:22] They played baseball with them.
  他们和他们一起打棒球。

[02:24] I used to box at the same gym.
  我曾经在同一个健身房拳击。

[02:25] And uh he was the captain of Gambino family that ran our area.
  呃，他是甘比诺家族管理我们地区的队长。

[02:30] When he went to prison, uh Sr. took over and stepped in his
  当他入狱时，呃，老戈蒂接管并介入了他的

[02:34] shoes and that's who you start reporting to is whoever takes over that position.
  鞋子，而你开始向接任该职位的人汇报。

[02:39] So the introduction was made through what was it? Local community? Did you kind of meet him? Were you guys friends?
  那么介绍是通过什么进行的呢？当地社区？你算是认识他吗？你们是朋友吗？

[02:44] At what age did you meet John Gotti Jr.?
  你几岁认识小约翰·戈蒂？

[02:46] Well, Jr. and me were became uh we knew each other when Jr. was about 16 years old.
  嗯，小约翰和我认识是在小约翰大约16岁的时候。

[02:52] Uh I was a year older than him at 17.
  嗯，我17岁，比他大一岁。

[02:54] We were introduced through mutual friends.
  我们是通过共同的朋友介绍认识的。

[02:56] Said hello, goodbye.
  打了招呼，说了再见。

[02:59] And he would come up to Jamaica Avenue once in a while seeing a guy named Johnny Gebert.
  他偶尔会来牙买加大道看一个叫约翰尼·格伯特的人。

[03:03] Actually, he's one of the guys I ordered his murder the first week I went to prison.
  实际上，他是我进监狱的第一周就下令谋杀的人之一。

[03:06] I told him to hit this guy when I go to prison.
  我告诉他，我进监狱的时候去干掉这个人。

[03:08] So that was his introduction uh to me and and him.
  所以这就是他和我以及他之间的介绍。

[03:12] And uh later on uh that ended up being I guess me and Jr. had that love hate relationship since we children.
  嗯，后来我想我和小约翰从小就有一种爱恨交织的关系。

[03:20] Oh, since since him 16, you 17, so right off the bat you guys had a love hate relationship.
  哦，自从他16岁，你17岁，所以你们一开始就有爱恨交织的关系。

[03:22] Yeah, it was uh on his end, you know, he needed us guys from Jamaica Avenue because he wanted to become He had uh aspirations to be like his father.
  是的，从他那边来说，你知道，他需要我们牙买加大道的人，因为他想成为，他有成为像他父亲一样的抱负。

[03:33] So he
  所以他

[03:35] I wanted to to meet some tough guys.
  我想认识一些硬汉。

[03:37] And Jamaica Avenue is where we grew up were guys that didn't have money.
  牙买加大道是我们长大的地方，那里的人都没钱。

[03:41] We come from a a poverty-stricken area.
  我们来自一个贫困的地区。

[03:44] Where he grew up was a rich area.
  他长大的地方是一个富裕的地区。

[03:46] So for in order for him to feel that he was being uh getting his feet wet in the street, he had to come up to Jamaica Avenue and meet me and some of my friends.
  所以，为了让他觉得自己开始接触街头生活，他不得不来到牙买加大道，和我的一些朋友见面。

[03:54] So his initial friend was Johnny Gebert, who was a street guy.
  所以他最初的朋友是约翰尼·吉伯特，他是一个街头人物。

[03:56] I mean uh So at that age 17, was John Was his father already the boss of the Gambino family?
  我的意思是，嗯，所以在那17岁的时候，约翰，他的父亲已经是甘比诺家族的老大了吗？

[04:02] Has it did happen yet?
  这发生过了吗？

[04:04] Or Paul Paul Castellano's event hasn't taken place yet?
  还是保罗·卡斯特拉诺的事件还没有发生？

[04:07] Hasn't taken place.
  还没有发生。

[04:08] Okay.
  好的。

[04:10] So at this point of where you're at, the community, are you in high school at 17 or you've already been out of school?
  所以，在你17岁的时候，你是在上高中，还是已经辍学了？

[04:15] No, I'm at high I'm in high school still.
  不，我还在上高中。

[04:16] And who are you in high school?
  你在高中有谁？

[04:18] If I went to school with you, who's who who's John Alite?
  如果我和你一起上学，谁是约翰·阿里特？

[04:21] Uh I was a guy that was known to be at the in the gyms boxing all the time.
  嗯，我是一个一直都在健身房打拳击的人。

[04:24] Most Italian Hall was the gym.
  大部分时间都在意大利大厅的健身房。

[04:26] Big names at that time were at the gym was David Sears and he fought Spinks.
  当时健身房里的大人物是戴维·西尔斯，他曾与斯平克斯交手。

[04:28] He got knocked out very quick, but he was a great fighter actually.
  他很快就被击倒了，但他实际上是一位伟大的拳击手。

[04:32] Burt Young from Rocky owned him and managed him.
  来自《洛奇》的伯特·扬拥有并管理他。

[04:37] Jerry Cooney.
  杰里·库尼。

[04:39] I did some shows with Jerry Cooney on his radio show.
  我曾在杰里·库尼的广播节目中做过一些节目。

[04:41] So Jerry Cooney was in that gym, same gym as me.
  所以杰里·库尼在那家健身房，和我同一家健身房。

[04:44] And Andy's Fat Andy Ruggiano's kids, Albert Ruggiano, great athlete and a fighter.
  还有安迪的胖子安迪·鲁吉亚诺的孩子们，阿尔伯特·鲁吉亚诺，伟大的运动员和斗士。

[04:48] So we all were in those gyms.
  所以我们都在那些健身房里。

[04:50] Billy Streame ends up getting killed also.
  比利·斯特里姆也最终被杀害了。

[04:52] Good friend of mine.
  我的好朋友。

[04:54] So this is like the place.
  所以这里就像是那个地方。

[04:54] This is the place.
  就是这里。

[04:56] This is the tough guys place where you're growing up at.
  这是你们成长起来的硬汉聚集的地方。

[04:58] Oh, no doubt.
  哦，毫无疑问。

[05:01] We nicknamed our area Death Haven because most of these guys that we're going to speak about are dead.
  我们将我们的区域昵称为“死亡避难所”，因为我们即将谈论的大多数人都死了。

[05:04] Uh they all got killed.
  呃，他们都死了。

[05:06] So you know, I'm one of the lone survivors I guess over the years.
  所以你知道，我想我算是多年来少数的幸存者之一。

[05:08] And there's uh close to 100 guys that grow grow up with us in that neighborhood that lost their lives.
  而且大约有100个和我们一起在那附近长大的家伙失去了生命。

[05:14] Now Now let me ask you You said close to 100 guys that grew
  现在，让我问你，你说大约有100个一起长大的家伙

[05:18] So growing up as a kid, at what age were you forced to be tough to survive in that area?
  所以，作为一个孩子成长起来，你多大年纪被迫变得坚强才能在那里生存？

[05:20] Is it right like 5 6 7?
  是像5、6、7岁那样吗？

[05:22] How soon does it start?
  它多久开始？

[05:24] My father was uh a fanatic about fighting and not getting bullied.
  我父亲非常热衷于格斗，不被欺负。

[05:28] So at an early age of 3 years old, we were actually working out doing push-ups and learning to jump rope.
  所以从3岁开始，我们就开始锻炼，做俯卧撑，学习跳绳。

[05:36] 3 years old?
  3岁？

[05:37] 3 years old.
  3岁。

[05:38] And we had a regiment of routines in baseball and boxing.
  我们有常规的棒球和拳击训练。

[05:42] Those were his two sports for us.
  那是他为我们选择的两项运动。

[05:44] So we were known and my father was known in the area as king of the kids.
  所以我们很有名，我父亲在这个地区被称为孩子王。

[05:48] He would bring kids down and learn how to box with us.
  他会带孩子们下来和我们一起学习拳击。

[05:50] And so some of my childhood friends like Timmy Donahue, he's passed away also, was also learning to fight with us.
  所以我的一些童年朋友，比如蒂米·多纳休，他也已经去世了，也和我们一起学习格斗。

[05:57] My father brought us in and didn't want us to grow up in a neighborhood that was tough without being able to be tough.
  我父亲让我们加入，他不想让我们在一个艰难的社区里长大，却无法变得坚强。

[06:02] So right off the bat you're learning how to box.
  所以一开始你就学会了如何打拳。

[06:04] Right off the bat.
  一开始就如此。

[06:05] Now your dad, who was your dad personality-wise?
  现在，你的父亲，从性格上来说，你的父亲是怎样一个人？

[06:07] Was he a gangster?
  他是个黑帮分子吗？

[06:09] Was he connected to anybody?
  他与任何人有联系吗？

[06:11] Was he just a respected guy?
  他只是一个受人尊敬的人吗？

[06:11] Was he a money guy?
  他是个有钱人吗？

[06:13] Was he a worker?
  他是个劳动者吗？

[06:13] Who was your pops?
  你的父亲是谁？

[06:15] My dad grew up in Rivington and Delancey Street, which is a known hub, especially back when he grew up in the you know, in the '40s and '50s with the gangsters like Vito Genovese were down there and guys like that, famous gangsters in those days.
  我父亲在里文顿和德兰西街长大，那里是一个众所周知的地方，尤其是在他成长的年代，你知道的，在四五十年代，像维托·吉诺维斯这样的黑帮分子就在那里，还有像那样的人，那些日子里著名的黑帮分子。

[06:30] So if he was a hang around guy, he wasn't a shooter, he was a gambler, but he stood with all gangsters and he was very friendly with Lucky Luciano's cousin, Charlie Luciano, who used to call him
  所以如果他是个喜欢到处晃悠的人，他不是个杀手，他是个赌徒，但他和所有黑帮分子都站在一起，而且他和幸运·卢西亚诺的表弟查理·卢西亚诺关系很好，查理·卢西亚诺过去常叫他

[06:39] Blackie.
  布莱基。

[06:41] So I was introduced to him as a young kid.
  所以我被介绍给他时，还是个小毛孩。

[06:43] So my father uh was uh very familiar with the the world of mob guys.
  我父亲呢，非常熟悉黑帮的世界。

[06:50] Was he trying to get you to stay away from the world?
  他是不是想让你远离那个世界？

[06:51] Like what's the link?
  像是，有什么联系？

[06:53] Was he kind of like, "Hey, you got to go out there and figure out a way to make money at all cost?"
  他是不是有点像在说：“嘿，你得出去想办法不惜一切代价赚钱？”

[06:57] What was the conversation like between you and your pops?
  你和你爸的谈话是怎样的？

[06:58] No, my dad was completely opposite.
  不，我爸完全相反。

[07:00] He was uh a gambler, a hustler, and didn't want me with the mob world.
  他是个赌徒，是个骗子，不想让我跟黑帮扯上关系。

[07:04] But at the same time, he was bringing me around these guys.
  但同时，他又把我带到这些人身边。

[07:08] So as he's telling me stay away, as I'm getting older, I'm getting attracted to the money and I see my my father struggling.
  所以，当他告诉我远离时，我年纪渐长，被金钱吸引，我看到我父亲在挣扎。

[07:18] And I see some of these guys and they treat me well.
  我看到这些人，他们对我很好。

[07:19] And you know, I'm getting attracted to that life and I want I want that life.
  你知道，我被那种生活吸引，我想要那种生活。

[07:23] You wanted that life.
  你想要那种生活。

[07:24] I wanted that life.
  我想要那种生活。

[07:25] My father wanted me to be a pro fighter or a pro ball player, you know, a baseball player.
  我父亲希望我成为一名职业拳击手或职业球类运动员，你知道，一名棒球运动员。

[07:30] So he had a different outlook on on things and he didn't think
  所以他对事情有不同的看法，他没想过

[07:34] In my father's mind, I'm very close to my dad, is uh to teach me to survive, to to un- for me
  在我父亲看来，我离他很近，是……教我生存，教我……对我来说

[07:40] to understand the mob world, but to be like him.
  为了了解黑手党世界，但要像他一样。

[07:41] Don't go dive into that world.
  不要涉足那个世界。

[07:45] And I guess he thought that I would never dive in.
  我想他认为我永远不会涉足。

[07:46] I'd be like him.
  我会像他一样。

[07:48] But it was the opposite.
  但事实恰恰相反。

[07:50] I went to the extreme the other way.
  我走向了另一个极端。

[07:52] You went to the extreme the other way.
  你走向了另一个极端。

[07:53] Mom and dad both Albanian?
  父母都是阿尔巴尼亚人？

[07:55] Both Albanian.
  都是阿尔巴尼亚人。

[07:56] Okay, got it.
  好的，明白了。

[07:59] And so he's trying to, you know, encouraging you not to get in, but at the same time you're on the environment, you know, gambling, you're on.
  所以他试图，你知道，鼓励你不要卷入，但同时你身处那个环境，你知道，赌博，你身处其中。

[08:04] And at what age are you on these folks by the way?
  顺便问一下，你多大开始接触这些人？

[08:06] Is it very like early early?
  是很早很早的时候吗？

[08:07] Early.
  很早。

[08:08] Very early.
  非常早。

[08:10] Very early.
  非常早。

[08:10] And are they taking a liking to you?
  他们开始喜欢你了吗？

[08:12] Like look, you know, we like you, you know, we like.
  就像，你看，你知道，我们喜欢你，你知道，我们喜欢。

[08:13] Is there a name?
  有名字吗？

[08:13] Hey, little Johnny.
  嘿，小约翰尼。

[08:15] Is John.
  是约翰。

[08:15] Were you like somebody that was liked?
  你是不是一个受欢迎的人？

[08:17] Yeah, I was a skinny little kid, but I was muscular because I was always doing push-ups and pull-ups.
  是的，我是一个瘦小的孩子，但我很健壮，因为我总是做俯卧撑和引体向上。

[08:21] And so they used to joke, "Johnny, walk on your hands."
  所以他们以前开玩笑说，“约翰尼，用手走路。”

[08:23] cuz I could stand on my hands.
  因为我能用手站立。

[08:24] "Johnny, show us to do pull-ups."
  “约翰尼，给我们表演一下引体向上。”

[08:26] And I was like a a good dog doing tricks, right?
  我就像一只会表演技巧的好狗，对吧？

[08:28] I liked the attention that they kept saying I was tough.
  我喜欢他们一直说我强壮的关注。

[08:29] They showed me to tell me to put their hands up, hit your hand.
  他们让我把手举起来，打你的手。

[08:32] And then I'd hit their hands boxing a little bit.
  然后我会打他们的手，稍微练练拳击。

[08:35] And they'd get a kick out of me.
  他们觉得我很有趣。

[08:37] And I got a kick out of them getting a kick out of me.
  而我从他们觉得我有趣中也获得了乐趣。

[08:39] So I
  所以我

[08:41] continued with it.
  继续了它。

[08:42] of entertainment.
  娱乐的。

[08:45] Form of acceptance.
  接受的形式。

[08:45] So at What was the first experience of making money illegally or legally for you?
  那么，你第一次非法或合法赚钱的经历是什么？

[08:51] At what age?
  在什么年龄？

[08:51] Again, I was in a in an environment that it was constant trouble.
  再说一遍，我身处一个麻烦不断的环境中。

[08:57] And it was constant gang related back in those days.
  而且在那个时候，它一直与帮派有关。

[09:00] You know, back in those days it was a lot of racial tension because of uh the times.
  你知道，在那个年代，由于时代的原因，有很多种族紧张关系。

[09:04] It was the '60s.
  那是60年代。

[09:07] So I worked in a deli.
  所以我曾在一家熟食店工作。

[09:09] And I spoke about this.
  我曾谈到过这件事。

[09:11] It's called Dick's Deli.
  它叫迪克熟食店。

[09:13] And it was a legitimate job.
  这是一份正当的工作。

[09:13] And in between going to box and playing baseball, I became the captain of baseball team in high school.
  在打拳击和打棒球的间隙，我成为了高中棒球队的队长。

[09:17] Uh I was working in this deli, but that deli introduced me to a couple things.
  嗯，我在这家熟食店工作，但那家熟食店让我接触了几件事。

[09:21] A lot of my friends that were involved with a gang called 7 and 9.
  我的许多朋友都卷入了一个叫7和9的帮派。

[09:25] They were very dangerous.
  他们非常危险。

[09:25] And it was basically it became a huge gang throughout all New York, not just our area.
  基本上它成为了遍布纽约的庞大帮派，不仅仅是我们那个区域。

[09:31] And it introduced me to the corner shop, the the car service.
  它让我接触到了街角的小店，汽车服务。

[09:34] It happened to be my girlfriend's father.
  碰巧是我女朋友的父亲。

[09:37] And he was a gangster with the Lucchese family.
  他曾是卢凯塞家族的黑帮分子。

[09:39] And around the corner was a bookmaker, which
  拐角处有一个赌博庄家，他

[09:42] was his brother, Louis Gotti, and George Gotti.
  是他的兄弟，路易斯·戈蒂，还有乔治·戈蒂。

[09:47] And he ran the local bookmaking area when car service.
  他经营当地的博彩业务，当时有叫车服务。

[09:50] How old are you at this time when you're saying I get maybe 15 when I start getting involved running slips for them.
  你在这个时候多大了，你说我开始参与给他们跑单子的时候大概15岁。

[09:56] Innocently.
  天真无邪地。

[09:58] yeah, I'm working in the in Dick's Deli and they asked me do me a favor and run it across the street.
  是的，我在迪克熟食店工作，他们请我帮个忙，把东西送到街对面。

[10:01] So, I innocently I'm not looking to to get involved to that extent.
  所以，我天真地，我不想卷入到那个程度。

[10:06] They just guys told me, "Hey, bookmakers and and some tough guys and a couple killers that later on at that age I still don't realize they're killers.
  他们只是告诉我，“嘿，有赌徒和一些硬汉，还有几个杀手，后来我才意识到他们是杀手。”

[10:14] They were humble guys and uh people have the idea the loudest man in the room is the toughest and it's the complete opposite.
  他们是谦虚的人，人们认为房间里最吵闹的人是最强硬的，这完全是错误的。

[10:20] The guys I've learned to look up to were guys like uh Charlie Luciano that were humble and quiet and gentlemen.
  我曾敬佩的人是像查理·卢西安诺那样谦虚、安静、有绅士风度的人。

[10:29] And those are the guys when they could turn that switch on and kill.
  那些人可以在需要时变得冷酷无情，杀人如麻。

[10:31] And I tried to mimic those guys as I got older.
  随着年龄的增长，我试图模仿那些人。

[10:34] It's funny, John Russo also said in New York he would run.
  有趣的是，约翰·鲁索也说他在纽约会跑腿。

[10:37] He was a runner at 14, 15 years old for Frank Costello is what he was doing that for when he was doing the certain favors.
  他14、15岁时为弗兰克·科斯特洛跑腿，当时他做这些事是为了完成某些恩惠。

[10:43] For.
  是的。

[10:44] Uh so, at what point were you kind of like, "Well, you know, I'm running, I'm doing this, but I'm seeing the lifestyle.
  嗯，那么，在什么程度上你觉得，“嗯，你知道，我在跑步，我在做这件事，但我看到了这种生活方式。

[10:48] Maybe there's a bigger opportunity here.
  也许这里有更大的机会。

[10:49] Where was that opening?
  那个机会在哪里？

[10:51] Was there anything that was, you know, was it accidental?
  有什么是，你知道，是偶然的吗？

[10:53] Was it intentional?
  是故意的吗？

[10:55] How did it happen?
  它是如何发生的？

[10:56] Well, I didn't have to really.
  嗯，我真的不必。

[10:59] After doing that, I didn't have to get any further introduction because I'm working and I'm making $75 a week in the deli, basically working full-time for the you know, whatever minimum wage was back then.
  做完那件事后，我无需进一步介绍，因为我在德利工作，每周赚75美元，基本上是全职工作，你知道，当时是最低工资。

[11:10] And uh if if uh George or Louie had a a good week and their runner Zito, he was also a professional boxer.
  嗯，如果乔治或路易过得好，他们的跑腿佐托，他也是个职业拳击手。

[11:16] Zito is a gangster and Mousey, another guy.
  佐托是个黑帮分子，还有另一个叫老鼠的家伙。

[11:18] When they were having a good week, they tipped me 20, 50, 100.
  当他们过得好时，他们给了我20、50、100的小费。

[11:22] So, at the end of the week I'm getting 75 from the deli and these guys maybe on a good week are giving me 300.
  所以，一周结束时，我从德利那里得到75美元，而这些人可能在一周内给了我300美元。

[11:28] And you're talking about when I'm a kid when 300's like 3,000.
  你说的是我还是个孩子的时候，300美元就像3000美元。

[11:33] What year is this?
  这是哪一年？

[11:35] Uh this is uh 19 uh 75, 76, 77.
  嗯，这是嗯19嗯75、76、77年。

[11:39] of money right there.
  就在那里的钱。

[11:40] of money.
  钱。

[11:41] Yeah.
  是的。

[11:41] For a 14, 15-year-old kid making 300
  对于一个14、15岁的孩子来说，赚300美元

[11:44] bucks a week on top of the 75.
  每周额外支付75美元。

[11:46] So, okay.
  所以，好的。

[11:46] So, now you meet Gotti.
  所以，现在你遇到了Gotti。

[11:48] You're 17, he's 16.
  你17岁，他16岁。

[11:51] Where Where does the relation cut relationship go to, you know, come on and let's do some more work together?
  关系会走向何方，你知道的，来吧，我们一起做更多的工作吧？

[11:55] How did that happen?
  那是什么时候发生的？

[11:56] How does that happen?
  那是什么时候发生的？

[11:57] Well, I'm nickel-and-diming in the drug business.
  嗯，我在毒品生意里斤斤计较。

[12:00] Albert Ruotolo was my you know, what you would say umbrella and he's a couple years older than me.
  Albert Ruotolo是我的，你知道的，你可以说是我的保护伞，他比我大几岁。

[12:05] And if I had any issues, I would bring it to Albert.
  如果我有什么问题，我会找Albert。

[12:07] At the time his dad was still the boss.
  当时他爸爸还是老大。

[12:10] And as when his dad leaves, I'm also dabbling in the bookmaking business.
  在他爸爸离开后，我也涉足了赌博生意。

[12:16] And uh Gabbet has a problem with Gotti on the street with some Jamaicans.
  然后，Gabbet在街上和一些牙买加人遇到了Gotti的麻烦。

[12:19] They rob uh uh uh I think about 2 or 300 pounds at that time.
  他们抢劫了，我想当时大概有200到300英镑。

[12:25] Uh Gabbet was moving weed at that time, what we call weed back then.
  当时Gabbet在贩卖大麻，就是我们那时称之为weed的东西。

[12:29] Uh and Gotti was his partner.
  然后Gotti是他的搭档。

[12:30] They asked me to take a ride and be the shooter with Gabbet.
  他们让我一起去，和Gabbet一起当枪手。

[12:34] Actually, I was the driver, Gabbet was the shooter.
  实际上，我是司机，Gabbet是枪手。

[12:36] And that was the first time they asked me to do a favor and it was really Gabbet that was asking me to favor because he lived around the corner from me and he was friends with
  那是他们第一次让我帮忙，实际上是Gabbet让我帮忙，因为他住在我家拐角处，而且他是我朋友。

[12:45] Gotti and friends with me.
  戈蒂和他的朋友们和我在一起。

[12:47] So, he said, "Will you do me a favor and take the ride?"
  所以，他说，“你能帮我个忙，载我一程吗？”

[12:48] I said, "Yeah."
  我说，“嗯。”

[12:50] And we met Gotti to discuss how we were going to do it.
  我们和戈蒂见面，讨论我们该怎么做。

[12:52] And that was probably the the the first major step into becoming later on involved in setting up uh multiple killing shootings and and beatings around the city.
  而这可能是我后来参与策划全市多起杀人、枪击和殴打事件的第一步。

[13:03] What was the first time the request was made?
  第一次提出请求是什么时候？

[13:06] Like How did they know you were the guy to go to?
  比如，他们怎么知道你是可以找的人？

[13:07] Had you already killed people before or it had never happened before?
  你以前杀过人吗，还是以前从未发生过？

[13:11] No, I you know, most of my friends, unlike what people think because they know my history now, they think I was a wild kid with guns and knives and bats.
  不，你知道，我的大多数朋友，不像人们现在因为知道我的过去而认为的那样，他们认为我是一个玩枪、玩刀、玩棍棒的野孩子。

[13:19] It was actually the complete opposite.
  实际上是完全相反的。

[13:20] All my friends are in 79 gang.
  我所有的朋友都在79帮。

[13:23] Uh my first friend, Michael Stratton, ends up killing a kid at 16, going to prison.
  呃，我的第一个朋友，迈克尔·斯特拉顿，16岁时杀了一个孩子，进了监狱。

[13:28] Another young guy, Tommy Turner, kills another guy uh that works at Dick's Deli with us.
  另一个年轻人，汤米·特纳，杀了一个和我们一起在迪克熟食店工作的人。

[13:31] Uh and they try to jump him, he stabbed the guy up.
  呃，他们试图袭击他，他把那个人捅死了。

[13:35] Uh he went to jail.
  呃，他进了监狱。

[13:38] So, these guys that were growing up with me, the Bonner brothers, they're using guns.
  所以，这些和我一起长大的家伙，邦纳兄弟，他们在使用枪。

[13:41] Everybody's using guns.
  每个人都在用枪。

[13:43] My friend Mikey uh Merl gets shot in the head with a shotgun uh chasing a guy that had the
  我的朋友迈基·呃·梅尔在追赶一个持有枪的人时，头部被霰弹枪击中。

[13:47] gun.
  枪。

[13:49] So, it'll tell you the mentality of us.
  所以，这会告诉你我们的心态。

[13:49] He's He's chasing a guy that actually has the shotgun with no gun and he loses his life there.
  他，他正在追赶一个实际上拿着霰弹枪但没有枪的人，然后他在那里丢了性命。

[13:53] So, I was kind of innocent compared to them.
  所以，和他们相比，我算是天真无邪的。

[13:56] I wasn't running around with guns.
  我没有拿着枪到处跑。

[13:57] I was fighting with my hands.
  我用拳头打架。

[14:00] As I'm getting uh acclimated with all my friends and all surrounding uh people that are surround around my life, I start slowly picking up knives, bats, and then I go into the guns.
  当我逐渐适应了我的所有朋友以及我周围的所有人，我开始慢慢拿起刀、棍棒，然后我开始接触枪。

[14:13] So, after that shooting with Gabbet, I think that opened the door for people say, "Oh, this kid'll do anything."
  所以，在和Gabbet那次枪击之后，我认为这为人们说“哦，这孩子什么都做得出来”打开了方便之门。

[14:18] Mhm.
  嗯。

[14:19] Got it.
  明白了。

[14:19] So, what was your first experience with knives and bats?
  那么，你第一次使用刀和棍棒的经历是什么？

[14:23] Was it still in your teens?
  那还在你的青少年时期吗？

[14:25] Oh, yeah, it was in my teens.
  哦，是的，那是在我的青少年时期。

[14:26] Oh, it was in your teens.
  哦，那是在你的青少年时期。

[14:26] Yeah.
  是的。

[14:28] By the time I'm 17, uh I start using a bat like crazy, too.
  到我17岁的时候，呃，我也开始疯狂地使用棍棒。

[14:33] At 17?
  17岁？

[14:33] 17.
  17岁。

[14:35] By the time I'm 19, I've stabbed a couple guys, batted a couple guys.
  到我19岁的时候，我捅了几个家伙，也用棍棒打过几个家伙。

[14:39] I got stabbed up and batted myself at 19.
  我19岁时被捅伤，也被打伤过。

[14:42] I almost lost my life that year.
  那一年我差点丢了性命。

[14:45] I was in and out of hospitals for about a year.
  我进出医院大约一年。

[14:46] And uh now I really
  然后，呃，现在我真的

[14:48] Understood the life.
  明白了生活。

[14:51] And I started to understand as I'm climbing up the ladder,
  我开始明白，当我爬上阶梯时，

[14:54] I'm losing my cousin, Patsy Adriano Sr.
  我失去了我的表亲，帕特西·阿德里亚诺·高级。

[14:57] Gets killed, then Mikey Merl gets killed, and Billy Aestreme gets killed,
  被杀了，然后迈克·梅尔被杀了，比利·埃斯特雷姆被杀了，

[15:02] and uh What is this doing to you?
  然后，呃，这对你有什么影响？

[15:04] When when this is happening and you're seeing people that are friends, family getting killed, are you getting the retaliatory
  当这种情况发生时，你看到朋友、家人被杀，你是否会受到报复

[15:11] Are you getting the retaliation blood in you or no, you're just kind of seeing what's going on, you got to protect yourself?
  你是否会受到报复性的血液在你体内涌动，还是你只是在观察正在发生的事情，你需要保护自己？

[15:14] No, I I I'm getting like you're doing as a journalist and as as an interview person and you you develop and you become top in your field, right?
  不，我我我正在像你一样，作为一个记者，作为一个采访者，你不断进步，成为你所在领域的顶尖人物，对吧？

[15:21] You become somebody that's going to be the best and you're going to do your homework and you're going to study and you're going to make sure that uh you don't make mistakes and you're going to go as as close as you can as 100% to be an expert in your business.
  你将成为最优秀的人，你会做好你的功课，你会去学习，你会确保你不会犯错误，你会尽你所能，百分之百地成为你所在行业的专家。

[15:35] So, I decided I'm not going to be the next victim like all my friends.
  所以，我决定我不会像我所有的朋友那样成为下一个受害者。

[15:38] They were all getting killed out of stupidity, out of trust, uh trusting
  他们都因为愚蠢、因为信任、呃，信任而丧生，

[15:40] So, you got to cut those odds down.
  所以，你必须降低这些风险。

[15:43] And I said to myself, "I'm going to be very aggressive and I'm going to understand I'm not 14 or 15 or
  我对自己说：“我要非常积极主动，我要明白我不是14岁或15岁或

[15:50] 16 anymore.
  16了。

[15:52] When someone comes after me, they know I'm dangerous now, they're going to come to kill me.
  当有人找我麻烦时，他们知道我现在很危险，他们会来杀我。

[15:55] So, who who are you trusting at that time?
  那么，你当时信任谁？

[15:58] Do you have people that you trust 100%?
  你有百分之百信任的人吗？

[16:00] Oh, yeah, I had I had a ton of guys.
  哦，是的，我有很多哥们。

[16:02] As I'm getting older and I'm moving in the drug business, bookmaking business, I have dozens of guys that work for me and it goes into hundreds later on as I keep getting older and I'm and I start my own crews and with the okay of the Gambino family.
  随着我年龄增长，我涉足毒品生意、赌博生意，我有几十个人为我工作，后来随着我年龄增长，我开始组建自己的团队，并得到甘比诺家族的认可，人数增加到几百人。

[16:15] So, I become a big earner on the street and I become a guy that's well-known with different crews and and I'm trusting my guys and I'm also trusting the mob almost blindly, you know, believing that there's loyalty and there's honor and there's no treachery.
  所以，我成了街头的大赚家，成了与其他团队都熟识的人，我信任我的手下，我也几乎盲目地信任黑手党，你知道，相信那里有忠诚、有荣誉、没有背叛。

[16:31] And I'm still naive, right?
  我仍然很天真，对吧？

[16:33] I'm a young kid that loves this life, believes in it.
  我是一个热爱这种生活、相信这种生活的年轻人。

[16:38] And as I start seeing some things as I'm getting older and understanding there is no honor.
  随着我开始看到一些事情，随着我年龄增长，我明白没有荣誉。

[16:42] It's treachery. There is no love.
  那是背叛。没有爱。

[16:45] It's only about money.
  只有钱。

[16:47] It's only about an individual surviving.
  只有个人生存。

[16:48] And I'm watching as I'm going through the life
  我看着我经历着这种生活

[16:51] and getting bigger and and stronger in this life and being more successful, Mhm.
  并且在这个生活中变得更大更强，更成功，嗯。

[16:55] that I'm watching gangster made guy after made guy, you know, cooperating, ratting, breaking the oath, uh our laws, our rules that I live by, although I'm Albanian.
  我看着一个又一个黑帮分子，你知道，合作，告密，违背誓言，呃，我们遵守的法律，我们生活的规则，尽管我是阿尔巴尼亚人。

[17:06] But what was the first request that made by maybe, you know, John Jr.'s father that came down?
  但是，也许是小约翰的父亲提出的第一个要求是什么？

[17:14] Did you have a meeting with John Sr.?
  你和老约翰开过会吗？

[17:15] Did Have you had multiple meetings with them?
  你和他们开过多次会吗？

[17:17] Oh, at this point I've met Gotti Sr., Angelo Ruggiero.
  哦，到目前为止，我见过老戈蒂，安杰洛·鲁杰罗。

[17:19] I got to report to the club uh 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
  我必须一天24小时，一周7天向俱乐部汇报。

[17:24] When I'm called, I have to be there early in the morning like a job.
  当我被叫到时，我必须像上班一样一大早就到那里。

[17:28] How old were you at the time?
  那时你多大了？

[17:29] 18 plus?
  18岁以上？

[17:32] Yeah, about uh 19 more so, 19.
  是的，大约19岁，更确切地说，19岁。

[17:35] Uh it's about the time I get stabbed up and everything.
  呃，这差不多是我被捅伤的时候。

[17:38] And uh I don't come a couple times and I think Gotti Sr. at this time thinks I'm just one of his son's friends and I don't need to be there.
  然后，呃，我没来几次，我想当时老戈蒂认为我只是他儿子朋友中的一个，我不需要在那里。

[17:46] And uh I get a knock on my door and it's my grandmother upstairs, we're living in the same house, and she says, "Johnny,
  然后，呃，我听到敲门声，是我楼上的祖母，我们住在一起，她说：“约翰尼，

[17:53] There's a big black car outside and there's somebody out there.
  外面有一辆黑色的汽车，有人在那里。

[17:57] So, I go out there and it's Gotti Sr.'s brothers.
  所以，我出去，是戈蒂先生的兄弟们。

[17:59] It's Pete Gotti and Richie Gotti.
  是皮特·戈蒂和里奇·戈蒂。

[18:01] At the time both guys aren't made guys.
  当时这两个人都不是正式成员。

[18:05] And they said to me, "Where the [ __ ] are you?"
  他们对我说：“你他妈的在哪儿？”

[18:07] And his brother he says, "What are you talking about?"
  他哥哥说：“你在说什么？”

[18:10] He says, "My brother's looking for you."
  他说：“我哥哥在找你。”

[18:12] And I look at him funny like and then I start realizing, "Wait a second."
  我奇怪地看着他，然后我开始意识到，“等一下。”

[18:16] You know, to myself a split second and I go back upstairs and I come down and I says, "No, let's go."
  你知道，我心里想了一瞬间，然后我回到楼上，又下来，我说，“不，我们走吧。”

[18:21] And they said, you know, "He wants to talk to you."
  他们说，你知道，“他想和你谈谈。”

[18:25] That's when I realized that I'm just not some kid to him.
  那时我才意识到，我对他来说不仅仅是个孩子。

[18:27] I'm not his son's friend.
  我不是他儿子的朋友。

[18:29] Uh we're not in a gang.
  呃，我们不是在帮派里。

[18:31] This is not a you know, a school trip.
  这不是，你知道，一次学校旅行。

[18:33] Now I'm starting to really realize this guy's noticing me and he's watching what I'm doing.
  现在我开始真正意识到这个人注意到我了，他在看我做什么。

[18:36] And I'm still not understanding it that these orders I'm getting, collect money, go baseball bat this guy, go pick up this, is actually coming from the father.
  我仍然不明白，我收到的这些命令，收钱，去用棒球棒打这个人，去接这个，实际上是来自父亲。

[18:45] You know, I just think it's us doing our own business on our own.
  你知道，我只是认为我们是在自己做自己的事。

[18:46] Genie Gotti still alive still around at the time.
  吉尼·戈蒂当时还活着，还在外面。

[18:50] He's not locked up yet. And uh I just
  他还没有被关起来。呃，我只是

[18:53] believe it's that.
  我相信就是那样。

[18:55] And then I start It.
  然后我开始。

[18:55] It opens my eyes and said, "This guy is
  它让我大开眼界，说道：“这家伙

[18:58] he's very aware of what we're doing.
  他非常清楚我们在做什么。

[19:00] He's very aware that we're moving
  他非常清楚我们在运送

[19:02] drugs."
  毒品。”

[19:04] Just says he isn't because I'm not schooled fully yet.
  只是说他不是，因为我还不够成熟。

[19:06] I'm still a kid not understanding the intricacies of
  我还只是个孩子，不理解其中的复杂性

[19:09] the the mafia.
  黑手党。

[19:09] I'm not understanding I'm
  我不明白，我

[19:12] not slick enough yet to understand how
  还不够老练，无法理解

[19:14] things
  事情

[19:15] operating.
  是如何运作的。

[19:17] You say something, but you might mean something else.
  你说一件事，但你可能意味着另一件事。

[19:19] You're doing something and they're telling you they
  你正在做某事，他们却告诉你他们

[19:20] had no knowledge of it, but they're the
  对此一无所知，但他们却是

[19:21] ones that sent you.
  派你来的人。

[19:23] I start understanding all the double-dealings
  我开始理解所有的欺骗

[19:25] and the treachery in the life.
  和生活中的背叛。

[19:27] Who's teaching you?
  谁在教你？

[19:27] Like who is your Lefty to
  比如你的莱弗蒂对

[19:30] Donnie Brasco or your Sonny?
  唐尼·布拉斯科或者你的桑尼？

[19:30] Who's playing that role in your life?
  谁在你生活中扮演那个角色？

[19:32] That is kind of mentoring you say like, "Here's
  那种指导，你说就像，“这是

[19:34] what it is.
  它是什么。

[19:36] Here's what omerta is.
  这是什么叫“沉默法则”。

[19:37] Here's the code of this.
  这是它的规则。

[19:37] Here's this."
  这是这个。”

[19:39] Who is Who is doing that with you?
  谁在和你一起做这件事？

[19:40] Well, there was a guy Ronnie Martino who
  嗯，有个叫罗尼·马蒂诺的人

[19:42] was a a known killer back in Dick's Deli
  是迪克熟食店里一个有名的杀手

[19:45] and uh Gambino family?
  呃，甘比诺家族的？

[19:45] No, outside of
  不，不是

[19:47] the Gambino family.
  甘比诺家族。

[19:47] He had a
  他有一个

[19:48] brother-in-law that was involved with
  姐夫，他与

[19:50] the Gambino family, but he was involved
  甘比诺家族有牵连，但他却与

[19:53] with the Lucchese family.
  卢切塞家族有牵连。

[19:53] And I had a
  而我有一个

[19:55] lot of Lucchese.
  很多卢凯塞。

[19:57] He had a brother Gambino and he's Lucchese.
  他有个兄弟甘比诺，他是卢凯塞的。

[19:59] Not a brother, a brother-in-law.
  不是兄弟，是姐夫。

[20:00] A brother-in-law, got it.
  是姐夫，明白了。

[20:03] And you know, it's not what everybody thinks.
  而且你知道，这不像大家想的那样。

[20:04] It's not, you know, most there's five families in New York, there's the outfit in Chicago, there's the Philadelphia mob, there's the Cavalcante family in North Jersey.
  不是，你知道，纽约有五个家族，芝加哥有那个组织，费城有黑帮，北新泽西有卡瓦尔坎特家族。

[20:12] We all mingle intermingle with each other.
  我们都互相交往。

[20:14] We do business with each other.
  我们互相做生意。

[20:16] We're friends with each other, but we also kill each other on orders.
  我们是朋友，但我们也奉命互相残杀。

[20:19] So it it's it's not as simple and cut and dry that people There's a lot of people out there that think they know the mob and they think they understand it and there's people that are so naive and there's people that think they're experts in this world and this life.
  所以它不像人们认为的那么简单明了，有很多人认为他们了解黑帮，认为他们理解它，也有人如此天真，也有人认为他们是这个世界和这种生活的专家。

[20:33] There's guys like Sammy Gravano who's a friend of mine and other guys that there are ex-skippers and bosses and underbosses that we're all in touch with and we lived that life.
  有像萨米·格拉瓦诺这样的人，他是我的朋友，还有其他一些前船长、头目和副头目，我们都与他们保持联系，我们都过那种生活。

[20:43] And even us, we have daily problems understanding the life and the treachery.
  即使是我们，在理解这种生活和背叛方面也有日常的困扰。

[20:47] And as we all got out of the life and moved on with our lives or our friends died or got killed.
  当我们都脱离那种生活，继续我们的生活，或者我们的朋友去世或被杀。

[20:54] You know, there's people that challenge
  你知道，有些人会挑战

[20:55] us and these days you know, you could

[20:57] challenge anybody through a computer.

[20:59] Well, they talk and they just talk such

[21:01] nonsense cuz they have no idea or clue

[21:04] of the treachery that involves when you

[21:05] get to the level that we were playing

[21:07] at.

[21:08] And so so at So what's the next place?

[21:10] So now they're coming the brothers are

[21:11] coming, you're in the car, you're like

[21:13] I got to go. These guys He knows what's

[21:15] going on. The orders are coming from the

[21:16] top. You go in.

[21:18] So now there's almost a level of

[21:19] accountability from his end and the son

[21:22] is a friend, but it's not You're not yet

[21:24] reporting to anybody or are you? Well,

[21:26] now I start reporting. It's about close

[21:29] to Paul Castellano getting killed. So

[21:31] it's the end of '84 about prior to Paul

[21:34] getting killed. I start reporting and

[21:37] having conversations

[21:38] more with Sammy Gotti.

[21:40] Prior to that, I was involved with uh

[21:44] Genie Gotti, Johnny Caniglia. Anybody

[21:47] that was around Willie Boy Johnson was

[21:49] on the half sheet with him and Gotti

[21:51] senior sent me to him. So I understood

[21:53] that Gotti was my partner, the father.

[21:56] And we had the New York Mets gambling

[21:58] with me. So

[22:00] So when I

[22:02] I moved to a different level. We used to

[22:04] play at We used to hang out a place

[22:06] called Channel 80 and it was a known

[22:08] spot for all the gangsters. You'd pull

[22:10] up with a boat. We all had cigarette

[22:12] boats in those days. I had a 280 Baja

[22:14] with Gotti junior. And we'd pull up to

[22:16] those places and Roger Basileo owned it.

[22:19] He was around Jimmy Burke from

[22:21] Goodfellas. His son Frankie was a good

[22:23] friend of mine. He gets killed also.

[22:25] And uh

[22:27] I start understanding that uh

[22:29] we're all living a pretty dangerous life

[22:32] now. Any moment, anybody could get

[22:34] killed. Didn't matter who it was, where

[22:36] it was. In your house, in a business.

[22:39] And it's not like these days where guys

[22:41] aren't shooting. When we were growing

[22:42] up, '70s, '80s, '90s there was killing

[22:46] was rampant, shootings were rampant and

[22:48] battings were rampant. So when I'm doing

[22:51] business and I'm talking to

[22:53] Willie Boy Johnson, I understand where

[22:55] it's coming from now. And Gotti had his

[22:58] conversations with me. So I and the

[22:59] senior had his conversations with me. So

[23:01] I understand the orders are coming from.

[23:03] Did you know were you involved in in the

[23:05] Castellano before it happened with Sammy

[23:07] and and and the team? Was there anything

[23:09] that you know about or that wasn't at

[23:10] your level yet? No, it was at my level.

[23:12] It was but it was through his son.

[23:14] Junior loved to talk to me and brag to

[23:16] me.

[23:17] So privately Junior told me

[23:21] I knew I'm involved with Angelo

[23:22] Ruggiero. So I was close with them. I'm

[23:24] close with Johnny Carneglia. At this

[23:26] time, I gave a beating to Patty

[23:28] Catalano's kid Jeff who was in the

[23:30] heroin business. Genie Gotti and Johnny

[23:33] Carneglia asked me to hurt him. I gave a

[23:34] beating to a guy Frankie.

[23:36] You know, these beatings are serious

[23:37] beatings, not with your hands.

[23:39] Bat. Bats,

[23:40] blackjacks. A guy Frankie that strayed

[23:42] away from Johnny Carneglia. And they

[23:44] asked me to hurt him. Another guy Mitch

[23:46] Sanders, they asked me to hurt him over

[23:49] some sort of rape with his girlfriend's

[23:52] sister. They accused him. They go ask

[23:54] him They asked the Gambino family to do

[23:55] the work. Johnny comes to me. So I start

[23:58] understanding. I hurt Jean Forrester on

[23:59] the beach and I start hurting guys and

[24:02] batting guys and piping guys. And it's

[24:05] coming from At that time, I didn't

[24:07] really understand it was coming from

[24:08] Gotti senior until

[24:11] until he didn't like that I didn't jump

[24:13] on a situation fast enough and he called

[24:15] me in his office. And he said, "Did my

[24:17] son tell you to do something?"

[24:19] And then the next conversation I had

[24:21] was, "If it's not done,

[24:23] you're going to have a problem." So I

[24:25] took care of business.

[24:26] Senior told you this.

[24:27] Yeah.

[24:28] And then I went through that on a

[24:29] regular basis. No, these are beatings

[24:32] still. Oh, you still haven't You still

[24:33] haven't I'm doing shootings, but I I

[24:35] haven't killed anybody besides the

[24:38] Gebbet and he was actual shooter. So I

[24:40] don't know how many guys died on that

[24:41] shooting. But you know, we hit I believe

[24:44] three guys and maybe a girl actually was

[24:47] there. So

[24:48] you know, you don't stand back there and

[24:49] count how many guys are going down. You

[24:51] know they're going down. They're

[24:52] screaming and he's shooting like crazy.

[24:53] So that's your first one? Yeah, that was

[24:55] my first shot. I was young. I was 19

[24:56] years old. What happened when that

[24:57] happened to you?

[24:59] Were were you like, "I cannot believe I

[25:01] just did this. What What the hell just

[25:02] happened?" Or were you I was mad because

[25:05] I talk about this. Gotti and a kid Jerry

[25:08] were following us in a cake car, junior,

[25:10] and they were supposed to be our

[25:11] blockers.

[25:12] And they took off and made a left when

[25:14] the police were chasing us. Happened the

[25:15] police just stumbled on us. They were

[25:16] coming in the direction of the shooting.

[25:18] It wasn't We weren't far from the

[25:20] precincts from 102nd Precinct. So

[25:22] there's a lot of police cars there. I

[25:24] mean, for them to be coming down the

[25:25] block at that time, you got some bad

[25:27] luck. So after we do the shooting, I

[25:29] would think, you know, I wasn't sure how

[25:31] I would react either, like you're

[25:32] saying. Naturally, you're not sure. Are

[25:34] you going to hold your mud or are you

[25:36] going to panic or you going to It became

[25:38] very natural to me. It was very easy. I

[25:40] pulled away. The cops were chasing us.

[25:42] Gebbet left the gun in my car and he

[25:44] jumped out while it was moving. I was

[25:46] going slow down a a one-way street, not

[25:48] slow, but I was coming up to the stop

[25:50] sign and he jumped out. He said, "Let me

[25:52] out." As he jumped out, he left the gun

[25:55] and the cops started chasing me and my

[25:57] my follow car my backup car was supposed

[26:01] to be Gotti and his kid Jerry and they

[26:03] had an excuse why they jumped out. So

[26:04] really I'm the only guy holding the mud

[26:07] and I was heading down towards Atlantic

[26:08] Avenue. It was a one I know the streets

[26:10] there cuz we live there. And I know it's

[26:12] a one-way. I open up the passenger door.

[26:15] I open up the other door. I take the gun

[26:17] and I start huffing on my feet and I

[26:19] leave the cars so the cops can't go by.

[26:21] I get across Atlantic Avenue. I start

[26:23] jumping fences in backyards and I'm

[26:25] taking the gun apart and dropping it in

[26:27] sewers as I'm running. And I get myself

[26:29] back to our club on 113th Street. And

[26:32] I'm steaming and I says, "Now I want

[26:34] Gebbet." This is the first time I'm

[26:35] saying, "Okay, I'm going to get Gebbet."

[26:37] So

[26:38] Gebbet came to the shooting high. He was

[26:40] smoking dust.

[26:42] And he's a wild guy.

[26:44] You know, no doubt I know Gebbet since

[26:45] he's a kid. He's a shooter. He shot a

[26:47] lot of guys, but he's a you know, he's a

[26:48] guy that's smoking angel dust.

[26:50] So I I look at him in a different light

[26:52] now. You're weak. You can't do work

[26:55] without doing that. You left me and I'm

[26:56] looking at Gotti and I'm thinking

[27:00] That's all I'm thinking. And why I stick

[27:03] around is because I have a bigger plan

[27:05] for myself because everybody asked me

[27:07] that question, "Why do you stick

[27:08] around?"

[27:09] I says, "Because Junior wasn't my

[27:11] direction. His father was the direction

[27:13] I was trying to go." And Angelo Ruggiero

[27:16] at the time is moving heroin with Genie

[27:19] Gotti, Johnny Carneglia. They all get

[27:20] pinched, Walk Right In. And uh

[27:23] I'm very friendly with them and I'm

[27:24] moving some I I start moving packages,

[27:27] not in that level, in small levels, but

[27:29] I'm moving it through Rikers Island

[27:31] through another guy that's at Rikers

[27:33] Island uh

[27:34] a guy Chrissy, Pete Chrissy. He's dead.

[27:36] He died also, but his brothers are still

[27:38] around. There His brothers work for me.

[27:40] Actually, one of his brothers, Tommy

[27:41] Chrissy shot Gebbet up before we killed

[27:44] him on while we was on a kill and when

[27:46] we see him.

[27:47] Which he lived, but uh

[27:50] I'm in a different circle and I

[27:52] understand what

[27:54] what I'm involved with now with Angelo,

[27:56] with Johnny and the shooting start, the

[27:58] drug business starts. So I understand

[28:00] and I know where I want to go. I got the

[28:02] New York Mets gambling with me. And

[28:04] actually

[28:05] somebody questioned that.

[28:07] I don't remember who and they came out

[28:09] with a check from Keith Hernandez of

[28:10] $5,000 to show

[28:12] they were paying. They found the $5,000

[28:14] check from Keith Hernandez.

[28:15] in the papers. It was in the New York

[28:16] papers. So that's documented.

[28:18] It's documented. Got it. You know, a lot

[28:20] of this stuff I'm I'm speaking about

[28:22] there's a new book I'm I'm coming out

[28:23] with, Dark Dark Shadow, too.

[28:25] And uh

[28:26] I'm going to come back this time

[28:29] you know, cuz I'm going to talk about

[28:30] shooting after shooting, stabbing after

[28:32] stabbing. But this time I told my author

[28:34] I want the witnesses and their names

[28:37] besides the victims in that book and I'm

[28:40] going to do a scorecard inside. So I'm

[28:42] going to show it step by step for the

[28:44] people that don't understand the life.

[28:45] So at that moment when that event

[28:48] happened with Gotti junior

[28:51] is your level of trust in him

[28:54] at a good score and then after that it's

[28:56] a scar where you kind of keep in the

[28:58] back of your mind saying I can never

[28:59] trust this guy? Like

[29:00] What Where are you with him? Because

[29:02] there are certain things where you see

[29:04] somebody do something in the back of

[29:05] your mind like, "Okay, it's done. I can

[29:06] never trust this guy, but I have to act

[29:08] like I do." Is that kind of what

[29:10] happened between the two of you? 100%

[29:12] because people ask you this you know,

[29:14] during the trials. They would There's a

[29:16] lot of questions from lawyers and

[29:18] journalists and you know, and I said to

[29:20] them, "Listen, I tell everybody the same

[29:22] thing.

[29:23] You had other positions before this. As

[29:25] a kid, you're growing up and there's

[29:27] bosses you don't respect, you don't

[29:29] trust and you keep it there in the back

[29:31] of your head. It's just a lesson learned

[29:32] that you know that you can't trust them.

[29:34] You know that he's not He doesn't belong

[29:36] in this life.

[29:38] As the years are moving on and not even

[29:40] years, as the months and weeks are going

[29:42] on

[29:43] I just named probably half a dozen of

[29:44] our friends that are already dead. By

[29:46] the time the next year comes around, I

[29:48] can name another six, seven guys that

[29:51] are are dead. So,

[29:51] Peers. Peers, good friends. And some of

[29:54] these friends of of mine are guys later

[29:57] on that I killed

[29:58] or I have killed. You know, I had like

[30:01] Johnny Gebert, I had him killed. At one

[30:03] time he was my friend as a kid. He lived

[30:05] around the corner from me. But you're

[30:06] starting to understand the life and you

[30:08] start to understand the treachery and

[30:09] you're understanding, just like at war,

[30:12] that this is you're you're not at

[30:14] playing a game no more. You're not in

[30:15] the schoolyard. You're not going to

[30:17] punch a guy in the face and it's going

[30:18] to end. So, you start really

[30:20] understanding when you can't trust

[30:22] somebody, you don't say it. You don't

[30:24] talk. Only the guys that talk end up

[30:26] dead. So, you know, I always use the

[30:28] armed force. I got a lot of respect for

[30:30] these guys and I've talked about it on a

[30:32] regular basis, armed forces, because

[30:33] these guys every day

[30:36] uh put on a uniform, whether they see

[30:38] action, no action, they have the

[30:40] possibility to lose their life. So, when

[30:42] people sit in their comfortable homes

[30:44] and they don't salute our flag or they

[30:46] don't get up and respect on people in

[30:49] armed forces around the world, not just

[30:50] this country,

[30:51] I says I despise them. They're cowards.

[30:54] And I have strong feelings against them

[30:56] because these men, they lost their

[30:57] mothers, fathers, kids, children and we

[31:00] have no right and no matter what. And I

[31:02] lived a a rough life on the street. And

[31:05] no matter what this country has done to

[31:07] me

[31:08] as far as prisons,

[31:09] I will never disrespect the flag or or

[31:12] the people that fight for our country.

[31:14] So, it's very important. And I think

[31:15] that the message of somebody's uh

[31:18] people leave out in the street about

[31:20] something they don't understand is uh

[31:22] it's important to get the right message

[31:23] out there. John, at that moment when

[31:25] you're when you're seeing what happened

[31:27] with uh

[31:28] uh uh you and Gotti Jr.,

[31:30] uh was there a moment where the next

[31:32] time you saw him where he couldn't look

[31:33] at you in your eyes? Was there anything

[31:35] like that where the tension was felt or

[31:37] no, you acted like everything was okay?

[31:39] Like even a smile like you just made

[31:41] right now, that smile tells 50 stories,

[31:42] right? So, you know what I'm saying when

[31:44] you see somebody and there's a smirk or

[31:46] smile or squint or angle of looking at

[31:48] him, is there any of that felt between

[31:51] the two of you or nothing at all? Yeah,

[31:53] I asked him what happened. He gave me an

[31:55] answer. I knew it was [ __ ]

[31:57] And I didn't question him anymore. I

[31:59] just put it in the bank and said, "Okay,

[32:00] I know what he's made of now."

[32:02] So, I understood at that moment that

[32:04] he'll sell me out any second, anytime.

[32:07] And later on he does.

[32:09] So, so, so then this leads me to the

[32:11] next question. Now, you're saying in

[32:12] that moment you're you have bigger

[32:14] ambitions on what you want to do, right?

[32:16] You're saying I want to have bigger

[32:17] ambitions.

[32:18] But you're Albanian, right? It's there's

[32:20] you can't be a made man in the Gambino

[32:23] family and be Albanian. You got to be

[32:26] Italian, right? I mean, that's one of

[32:27] the things that they had themselves,

[32:28] especially to go be a boss.

[32:30] To be the boss it's a complete different

[32:32] story. So,

[32:33] as much as you're motivated and

[32:35] ambitious to do it, what was your

[32:37] formula on how to get to the top? No, I

[32:39] understood technically I couldn't be

[32:41] officially made, technically.

[32:44] But

[32:45] otherwise in every other aspect of that

[32:47] street world,

[32:48] I'm considered being made guy. I'm

[32:50] considered being almost a boss on the

[32:52] street. I'm considered by anybody in the

[32:54] mob because you know what runs runs the

[32:56] world of the mafia is violence, violence

[32:59] and money. So, if you can I had the

[33:01] qualities that other guys did. I was

[33:03] intelligent, so I know how to make

[33:05] money. I knew how to operate businesses

[33:07] and I was vicious. So, those qualities

[33:10] make me become another

[33:12] Jimmy Burke, who was

[33:14] uh Robert De Niro in Goodfellas. No, of

[33:16] course. Yeah. His son was my good

[33:18] friend. So, I looked at Jimmy Burke, I

[33:19] don't see I don't think there was

[33:21] anybody ever when he was in jail, on the

[33:23] streets, whatever, say, "Oh, you're

[33:25] Irish, we're not respecting you as a

[33:28] gangster or as a mob guy." Well, Joe

[33:30] Watts, who was a very personal friend

[33:32] and a and a known killer in our family

[33:34] and John Gotti Sr.'s main guy and he was

[33:38] German. So, there's guys that I looked

[33:40] at and said, "I'm going to be them."

[33:41] And uh

[33:43] I did become them. Guys testified in in

[33:45] trials in court that I had my own crew

[33:48] and it was very unusual for an Albanian,

[33:50] a non-Italian to be able to run their

[33:53] own crews on the street and nobody's

[33:54] challenged. But there's guys and there's

[33:56] groups outside of, you know, you see

[33:58] some of these mob sites and the guys,

[34:00] they don't even know what they're

[34:00] speaking about. There's There was, you

[34:02] know, the Westies, an Irish group out of

[34:04] New York, Manhattan. I would laugh if

[34:07] somebody ever typed something to them

[34:08] back in the '80s that they're they're

[34:10] not respected because they're Irish. And

[34:13] even we'll talk about these days, the

[34:15] last four hits in in the American

[34:18] Italian mafia were done by black guys.

[34:21] So, I want to see those same guys

[34:24] telling them, "Well, we're not going to

[34:25] respect them." People in the street, and

[34:28] this is anybody in the street, whether

[34:30] you're the Hells Angels, my friend was

[34:32] he just passed away,

[34:34] was grew up with me since we were kids,

[34:36] was president of Hells Angels. I don't

[34:37] want to see I don't think there's

[34:39] anybody from the street that is really a

[34:41] legitimate tough guy that doesn't

[34:43] understand the street. We under

[34:44] understand to respect somebody with

[34:47] intelligence and somebody that is on the

[34:49] street that's that's tough. So,

[34:51] regardless, no one says to you, "Well,

[34:53] what's your nationality? I'm going to

[34:54] respect you for your nationality."

[34:55] No, no doubt about it. But but there's a

[34:57] there like, you know, Mira, you you you

[34:58] know, Tony Mira,

[35:00] uh uh you know, there were certain guys

[35:01] that were known for being earners, there

[35:04] were certain guys for being known for

[35:06] being soldiers, right? There were guys

[35:08] that knew how to go make the money and

[35:11] some of them that knew how to take the

[35:13] hits. One of the things Sammy was known

[35:14] for, the guy, the reason why he got so

[35:16] much

[35:16] street credit is and this is this comes

[35:19] from everybody I talk to. Whoever I talk

[35:21] to for whatever reason,

[35:23] they all

[35:24] either respect Sammy and validate what

[35:26] he did and even the whole story with him

[35:28] and Gotti, him going and testifying,

[35:31] immunity, whatever you want to call it

[35:32] for the 19 counts,

[35:34] they say he ran a legitimate

[35:36] construction company, was making money

[35:38] and at the same time when it came down

[35:40] to doing the job, he did it as well. So,

[35:43] but because he was Italian, he could

[35:45] eventually end up being a boss. What was

[35:48] your, you know, end of, you know, my

[35:50] vision is one day John Alite's going to

[35:52] be XYZ. What was your vision?

[35:54] I'll I'll tell you something cuz you

[35:55] mentioned Sammy.

[35:57] Sammy Gravano, and this is the first

[35:58] time I'll mention it anyway. Sammy

[36:00] Gravano did an interview, his first one

[36:02] since he's been home from his 15 years

[36:04] he just did. And his interview was about

[36:07] John Alite. He does a audio interview

[36:11] with a guy named Andy Delian, who did

[36:13] Perfect Gangster one.

[36:15] Uh that interview is going to be in

[36:16] Europe shortly. And he discusses

[36:19] what I am.

[36:21] And

[36:22] what's a thug, what's a mafioso, what's

[36:24] a gangster.

[36:25] And he says most people, this is his

[36:28] words,

[36:29] are uh

[36:30] either like a Michael Franzese, who's a

[36:33] mafia mafioso earner, but not a killer.

[36:36] He doesn't put a gun in his hand. He's

[36:37] very intelligent man. I like him. I

[36:39] respect him. He's speaks well. He turned

[36:41] his life around. He's doing the right

[36:43] thing. And then there's guys like Frank

[36:45] Cullotta, who's

[36:47] a thug, gangster, killer. So, there's

[36:49] two types.

[36:49] Mhm. Sammy gave me in that interview or

[36:53] he said about me that I'm both. I'm an

[36:55] earner, I'm a thug.

[36:57] And I'm a mafioso and I'm an Albanian

[36:59] mafioso

[37:00] that has total respect from the mob

[37:03] world.

[37:04] And that uh

[37:06] I'm a professional hitman and I'm a

[37:08] killer and I'm the Gambino's family's

[37:09] hitman. And And unfortunately, I was

[37:12] around the wrong guys, the Gottis. Those

[37:14] are his words, not mine. Those Those are

[37:16] recorded words from Sammy.

[37:17] How How many total people have you done

[37:19] a

[37:20] How many hits did you do total?

[37:22] I hear different numbers. I hear 15,

[37:24] dozens, 19.

[37:26] Here's the thing.

[37:27] You know, you go play baseball and I've

[37:30] tried to say this is, you know, so many

[37:32] different times when I'm talking to you.

[37:34] You will play baseball and a guy plays

[37:35] one game and he gets a base hit.

[37:37] He's going to remember that for the rest

[37:38] of his life. It's the only game he

[37:39] played.

[37:40] I did this day in and day out. So, when

[37:43] someone said, "Did you kill Georgie

[37:44] Grasso?" I'll give you names. "Did you

[37:46] shoot him in the head?" Yes, I did.

[37:48] Did somebody say, "Did you kill Johnny

[37:50] Gebert?" Yes, I did. I ordered him dead.

[37:53] Did you kill Bruce Cutler?

[37:55] Unfortunately, I'm friends with his

[37:56] family now. Yes, I did. I ordered him

[37:58] dead.

[37:59] Did you shoot Mike Lavigne in the chest

[38:01] in Port Authority testified against you

[38:03] 25 years? Yes, I did.

[38:05] Did you shoot Ricky Stratton in the head

[38:06] on the Belt Parkway? John Alite, did you

[38:09] shoot him? Yes, I did.

[38:11] Did you shoot Paul G in front of John

[38:13] Gotti Sr.'s house in your in care was in

[38:15] front of his house? Yes, I did.

[38:17] Did you shoot Nicky Pasquale five times

[38:19] on his porch and he lose his leg and he

[38:21] almost died? Yes, I did. Did you stab a

[38:24] guy in front of Vinnie Butch

[38:27] in Fort Lauderdale in the neck and the

[38:28] stomach

[38:29] and he was operated twice and almost

[38:32] died? Yes, I did.

[38:34] Did you shoot Sal Nodles' brother-in-law

[38:36] in

[38:37] uh

[38:38] Bulkhead Bar? Yes, I did. I shot his

[38:40] friend outside the Bulkhead Bar. Yes, I

[38:42] did. I can go on with these names.

[38:44] And if you I Did I shoot two guys in

[38:46] front of Mondello's for Michael

[38:48] Catapano, we call Catman, still alive?

[38:50] Yes, I did. Witnesses.

[38:52] Did I baseball bat three bikers and

[38:54] baseball bat Nicky uh

[38:57] uh Kenny Nicole on 78th Street in front

[38:59] of the old brother-in-law by accident?

[39:01] Yes, I did. He's alive. Joey Matthews is

[39:02] dead. I went to protect him.

[39:04] Did I pipe three guys and hit them with

[39:06] bottles in front of Princeton Diner in

[39:08] front of Lisa Matriano? Her best

[39:10] friend's married to Joe Pungitore, a

[39:12] captain in the Philadelphia mob. She was

[39:14] there. Still alive. Yes, I did.

[39:17] Did I stab a biker in Forest Hills

[39:21] and let die and tell my shoot him in the

[39:22] head they never come looking for me

[39:23] again after I baseball bat the other

[39:25] three bikers? Yes, I did. Michael Finney

[39:27] testified against it for it. Uh about

[39:30] what I did. Did I shoot Mike Pip and two

[39:32] other guys in front of 116th and 101st

[39:35] Avenue? Yes, I did. So, the difference

[39:37] between what I do and I can go on. We

[39:39] could keep talking. I don't know how

[39:41] many guys I shot. I killed two guys for

[39:43] sure on my property, maybe three.

[39:45] Uh Danny Mauro

[39:48] unlike some of the stories that said it

[39:49] never happened, testified and he's on

[39:52] tape. It'll be out in Perfect Gangster

[39:54] 2.

[39:55] Dino Fanelli helped me get rid of the

[39:57] guns afterwards, seen tons of blood all

[39:59] over. These are regular guys. Dumped the

[40:01] guns for me. Testified also and did an

[40:04] interview on tape. Carmine Rone

[40:07] multi-millionaire, legitimate guy owns

[40:09] the Marios restaurant testified I did.

[40:12] He was on the property. Steve

[40:14] Laquertondo, insurance man, regular guy

[40:18] testified I did.

[40:20] So, you know, when guys are talking out

[40:21] of line or out of school, I hear it all

[40:23] the time. So, why is Sammy Gravano, the

[40:25] underboss of family, talking about me in

[40:27] that in that way? Why did Ronnie One

[40:29] Arm, captain in the Gambino family, I

[40:31] robbed all his bookmakers, he was a

[40:33] one-time friend of mine. I robbed Jojo

[40:35] Corozzo, at one time consigliere of the

[40:37] family, robbed his bookmakers. Why ain't

[40:39] anybody

[40:40] getting retaliation against me? I robbed

[40:42] two of them. I put my name in his mouth

[40:44] and I taped it. Uh Steve Catalano was

[40:46] there, he's still alive. Johnny Burke's

[40:48] in jail, even though I don't like the

[40:49] kid, he was there. He didn't want to

[40:51] come near the guy cuz the guy was too

[40:52] big. So, these guys are alive, I can go

[40:55] on. Why did Ronnie One Arm, in his own

[40:56] words, in his opening statement say if I

[40:58] ain't nice to the Johnny Alite, he'll

[40:59] kill me like he killed everybody else?

[41:02] Why did he say it a dozen times? Get his

[41:04] paperwork in his opening statement. It's

[41:06] out all over the internet that I'm John

[41:08] Gotti Jr.'s partner, I'm in the drug

[41:10] business, over and over and over again

[41:11] he repeated it.

[41:13] Why did Stevie Noel, a guy I shot, who

[41:15] I'm personally friends with now, and we

[41:17] had a disagreement, the guy he said they

[41:19] would protect him, I shot him. Did he

[41:21] say on tape you don't know Johnny Alite,

[41:23] he'll shoot anybody anywhere. And did

[41:25] And John Gotti Jr. ratted on him, ratted

[41:27] on me. Well, he became a rat, he called

[41:29] Stevie a rat. Wasn't true.

[41:31] Why did Stevie Noel say that he sees

[41:32] captains in the Gambino family answer to

[41:34] me? He grew up in our neighborhood.

[41:36] So, when guys talk and I hear these

[41:38] tough guys on the internet and you got

[41:41] guys like Vito Guzzo, who's doing

[41:43] 30-something years. He's been my enemy

[41:45] for years. Did I have him shot? Yes. Did

[41:47] he kill the guy I had him shot?

[41:49] Yes, he did. Do I like him? No, not

[41:52] particularly. Do I know him since he's 5

[41:53] 6 years old? Yes.

[41:55] Does he have the right to talk about me?

[41:56] He does cuz he was a legitimate

[41:58] gangster, whether I like it or not. And

[42:00] he knows I'm a legitimate gangster. They

[42:01] tried to kill me 7 8 10 times, I don't

[42:03] know how many times. These guys were on

[42:05] the FBI's most wanted, Anthony Tabita,

[42:07] Frankie Foridello. These are serious

[42:09] guys, killers.

[42:10] But when you get guys like Big Mouth,

[42:12] there's a kid from my neighbor, Frankie

[42:14] JeDece, who's a punk with a big mouth,

[42:16] never did anything, and they talk like

[42:18] they ever did anything. He never loaded

[42:20] a gun. He's another guy. Only guys that

[42:22] talk like that, you know they're in

[42:23] about nothing. But when at least if

[42:25] they're in the mix and you know, when

[42:27] his friend was getting hurt or we were

[42:29] collecting money off him, he ran, he hid

[42:31] in front of 106 Precinct. These same

[42:34] guys that talk where they talk about my

[42:35] children my children ain't gangsters.

[42:38] You got children, too.

[42:40] So, when they talk out of school

[42:41] they're you know they're not about

[42:43] anything because guys that run their

[42:44] mouth, they're nothing. The guys that

[42:46] Frito Guzzo, who was a legitimate killer

[42:50] I didn't particularly like their crimes.

[42:51] I didn't like what a lot of those guys

[42:52] in that crew did. Some of them didn't

[42:53] like it, either, with any Vito was

[42:55] doing. But you can say to yourself, this

[42:57] guy is a gangster, he can't talk.

[42:59] There's a guy out of Brooklyn that's in

[43:01] the street still, I know him since we

[43:02] were kids. I won't say his whole name,

[43:03] his name Danny. He was a killer, tough

[43:05] guy. So, he has the legitimate right to

[43:08] talk about the street. But these guys

[43:09] that don't know what they're talking

[43:10] about because I can run those lists on

[43:13] and on and on of guys I shot baseball

[43:15] batted. I said I baseball batted over

[43:17] 100 guys and stabbed. Did I do it? Well

[43:20] people say I did. There's a guy, Johnny,

[43:21] that testified for John Gotti Jr. I

[43:23] baseball batted him by myself.

[43:26] The three guys I just talked about, by

[43:28] myself. The Kryzanowski brothers, I

[43:30] baseball batted, too, by myself. The

[43:32] Keegan brothers I baseball batted one of

[43:34] them by myself. I could go on. That's

[43:36] why I said I may I'm going to say names

[43:38] this time to shut these people up that

[43:40] don't know what they're talking about or

[43:41] what disrespect me because my life's

[43:43] different now.

[43:44] The hard part for me is not to kill

[43:46] these guys that talk. The easy part for

[43:48] me was killing guys and hurting guys.

[43:50] Why was it easy? That's part of my life.

[43:53] It's like putting on a uniform and going

[43:54] to the army. Whether I it's a crazy way

[43:56] of thinking. When I signed up for this

[43:58] life, I believed in it. I don't believe

[44:00] in it anymore.

[44:01] There's two things that ruined this life

[44:03] that people don't understand.

[44:06] Structure

[44:07] right?

[44:08] And fear. There is no more fear because

[44:10] they're they're asking people outside of

[44:12] the mob to do that killing for them, to

[44:14] do that [ __ ] shooting for them. Wait,

[44:16] structure and fear is what made it work

[44:18] or structure and fear is what it's it's

[44:20] what made it

[44:21] it work. Why it doesn't work now is

[44:23] because

[44:25] I can name and I can see how I just

[44:27] named all the guys I shot and stabbed

[44:28] and I could have kept going, right? You

[44:30] you could see I could keep rambling

[44:31] these names.

[44:33] That same guy, the same the way I did

[44:34] that, I can name family after family.

[44:37] Joe Massino, acting boss boss, excuse

[44:39] me, of the Bonanno family became a rat.

[44:42] John Gotti Jr. became a rat. Al D'Arco,

[44:45] Lucchese family, a rat. Philadelphia

[44:48] mob, Ralph Natale, rat. Leonetti, rat.

[44:52] But how you going to have structure when

[44:54] all your bosses are rats?

[44:57] Not only the bosses, I can go down the

[44:58] line of captains. I can go to Mikey

[45:00] Scars, became a cooperator. I won't call

[45:03] him a rat, he cooperated. He was John

[45:04] Gotti Jr.'s best friend. He made

[45:06] statements, I was there when we were

[45:08] setting up juries for Gotti senior. Why

[45:10] is he making that statement if I'm a

[45:11] nobody? If I'm not this guy everybody

[45:14] says. Why is he saying that Johnny Alite

[45:16] we he was there when we were going to

[45:17] hit uh Curtis Sliwa night denied it. I I

[45:20] said I'm not hitting a journalist. We

[45:22] got enough guys we can hit and kill.

[45:24] So, why am I at weddings? Why am at

[45:27] Gotti's wedding? Why am at sister's? So,

[45:29] when people talk out of line that they

[45:31] don't have a clue what they're talking,

[45:32] they have no idea the violence that we

[45:34] were living and what I personally did

[45:36] for the Gambino family, in jails, out of

[45:38] jails. John, let me ask you. I'm

[45:40] listening to the way you say it.

[45:42] You're saying it a way

[45:45] a baseball player would say you know,

[45:48] game three playoffs round, you know such

[45:51] and such I hit the

[45:53] double and it scored a winning run, you

[45:55] know. Uh game one opener against the

[45:58] Yankees, I hit a, you know, home run and

[46:01] we ended up winning that one three for

[46:02] four. The way you're saying it is just

[46:04] so nonchalant. Is that a part of it

[46:07] where in your world there is it almost

[46:10] sounds that it's like uh

[46:12] uh

[46:12] uh I don't want to say bragging rights,

[46:14] but it's like, listen, I'm a real

[46:15] soldier. Here's what I really did.

[46:17] Because you lived in that I feel the

[46:19] competitive spirit that you have. I feel

[46:21] the the the spirit of look, I'm legit,

[46:24] here's what I did. I was a driven guy, I

[46:27] was committed to the life and I wanted

[46:28] to come through and I'm not one of these

[46:30] guys that didn't that were afraid to be

[46:31] soldiers. I did this part as well.

[46:34] That's that's the that's the way it

[46:35] comes across. Are these things where for

[46:38] you during that part of the world you

[46:39] look at and you say I chose to live this

[46:41] life and I'm proud of the job I did. Is

[46:43] that kind of how you're processing it or

[46:44] no? My father, let me go back to my

[46:46] father. My father taught me to be best

[46:48] at whatever I did. So, when I played

[46:50] baseball

[46:52] you have to beat me for me to back away

[46:55] from a guy coming to home plate when I

[46:56] was a little kid and a catcher. There's

[46:58] no way I'm going to step away and side

[47:00] tag him. When I was in the ring

[47:02] whether win or lose, they put me in a

[47:04] ring one time with a kid that was

[47:05] destroying me and my trainer wasn't

[47:07] there and it was, you know, just

[47:08] sparring. Mhm. And I would I refuse not

[47:11] to go in the ring.

[47:12] And he beat me all over the ring.

[47:14] And then when I got involved with the

[47:16] mob I believe Here's the thing that why

[47:19] I'm so adamant the way I talk and what I

[47:20] say and is because I believed in the mob

[47:23] more than anybody.

[47:25] I went against my family. I went on the

[47:27] run because I didn't want to give up

[47:29] anybody in the mob. I left all my money,

[47:32] millions. I left my children. I stayed

[47:34] in a Brazilian penitentiary and I was

[47:37] going to rot there. I was willing to

[47:38] face the death sentence. I lived in

[47:40] every country you could think of.

[47:42] Meanwhile

[47:43] my enemies and my friends like Gotti Jr.

[47:46] were already cooperating. So, what I'm

[47:49] trying to do and it's so important for

[47:50] me to say, I am the real deal. I am the

[47:53] guy that did this. It's not bragging.

[47:55] And you know, maybe sometimes it comes

[47:57] off that way cuz I'm angry because I go

[47:59] around now. I don't know if you know

[48:01] what I changed. Because I go around and

[48:02] I teach kids don't follow. That's why

[48:04] I'm angry. Because I don't want kids to

[48:06] follow this life. I don't want kids to

[48:08] understand and think that these guys are

[48:10] tough guys because in my book that I'm

[48:13] going to do with Susan Pike

[48:15] I'm going to come out with the next

[48:17] book. This is Darkest Hour 1. I'm coming

[48:19] out with Darkest Hour 2 and 3.

[48:21] And in Darkest Hour 2 that's coming out

[48:23] in February, I'm going to put a

[48:24] scorecard

[48:26] like we do in sports. When somebody gets

[48:28] Just what you said, how many hits or how

[48:30] many tackles. I'm going to go through

[48:31] how many of these guys never touched a

[48:33] gun in their life.

[48:34] Never did a killing. Pete Gotti, say.

[48:38] Never touched a gun. He didn't kill

[48:39] anybody.

[48:40] It's easy for to ask this kid to do the

[48:42] killing from. It was easy to ask me to

[48:44] do the killing and the shooting and then

[48:46] when it's finished and all the trouble

[48:47] starts, say he was nobody. Because

[48:49] they're going to do it to the next kid.

[48:51] That's why I'm so Who was saying you

[48:52] were nobody?

[48:53] Whoever says it. I'm saying it doesn't

[48:55] matter who's saying What I'm trying to

[48:56] teach these kids is don't follow this

[48:58] life. I'm here to tell you I lived this

[49:01] life. I was a guy that was in this life

[49:03] making a ton of money. This is a dead

[49:05] end way to live. So, it's very important

[49:08] to be very strong about the way I'm

[49:09] talking and what I've done. And it's

[49:11] very important to let these kids know,

[49:13] listen, do not follow this. This is a

[49:15] one-way street to nowhere. And and

[49:18] It's very tough to live that life today,

[49:19] though.

[49:20] You know, to to to have the mob life

[49:22] today, it's very tough to live the life

[49:24] today. It's not not as it was in the

[49:26] '80s. No, it's not as the '80s because

[49:28] they're not killing and they're not

[49:30] shooting and they're not baseball

[49:31] batting

[49:33] Well, this is why I was talking about

[49:34] structure and fear. Right. But you have

[49:36] guys all over the street selling powder

[49:38] and pills, and they think they're

[49:40] gangsters. They put on a suit and tie,

[49:42] they put on a cigar they put a cigar in

[49:44] their mouth, and they think they're

[49:45] gangsters, and they're teaching these

[49:46] kids they could still do this and you

[49:48] can have a future, but there is no

[49:50] future in this life. There is no future

[49:52] in selling drugs, there's no future in

[49:54] selling

[49:55] killing or hurting.

[49:56] It's This is why I said it's very easy

[49:58] to kill and hurt, but it's the hard part

[50:00] is not to.

[50:00] John, what's your falling out? What

[50:02] caused the fall I've read many different

[50:05] things, and I've read both sides of the

[50:07] story, you know, and I called around

[50:09] just to kind of see what they're going

[50:10] to tell me.

[50:11] People that don't believe a single word

[50:13] that comes out of your mouth. People

[50:15] that say this guy's legit, and I've

[50:17] called names that you know. Some of the

[50:18] names you've mentioned just to kind of

[50:20] give that, but they've asked me to not

[50:21] disclose the names for obvious reasons.

[50:23] So, if I were to call you and say, "Hey,

[50:25] what do you think about this?" This is

[50:26] what I'm sitting with you is what's the

[50:27] case with this guy.

[50:29] What what caused the falling out with

[50:31] you, John, and senior? What what caused

[50:34] the falling out while you're coming up?

[50:36] Well, it's very simple. I mean, anybody

[50:38] with an education can decipher what I'm

[50:40] saying and check, right? Because I'm

[50:42] making statements with names. I'm making

[50:44] statements of made guys. Okay. Here's

[50:46] the falling out.

[50:48] Frankie DeCicco was killed.

[50:51] Did you see anybody get killed after

[50:52] Frankie got blown up? No.

[50:54] Eddie Lino was killed

[50:56] by the Lucchese family, by the rogue

[50:57] cops, Epilato. See anybody retaliate

[51:00] that? No.

[51:01] Bobby Boriello was killed in front of

[51:03] his house. See anybody retaliate that?

[51:04] No. Joey Scopo that was put in position

[51:07] to be an acting boss of the Colombo

[51:08] family by Gotti when he was murdered in

[51:10] front of his house. Any retaliation? No.

[51:13] My good friend Greg Rider was chopped up

[51:16] and left somewhere. Nobody ever found

[51:18] his body. While his father did life,

[51:20] didn't give up. Gotti senior couldn't

[51:22] never spent one day Mark Rider in

[51:24] prison, and nobody did anything about

[51:26] it. And in my belief, they ordered it.

[51:28] They okayed it. They didn't order the

[51:30] murder of Greg Rider, but they okayed

[51:31] it.

[51:32] And I could go on with that list. Little

[51:34] Anthony Maccuspie was killed over a a

[51:37] dispute in in uh

[51:39] I'm trying to think of Bedrock's with

[51:41] the owner.

[51:42] Did anybody kill the guy that killed

[51:44] him? Regardless if the guy was wrong or

[51:45] right. Our laws, you can't put your hand

[51:47] on a made guy. He killed him.

[51:49] Gotti didn't do anything about it.

[51:51] Nobody did anything about it. Why not?

[51:53] So, we believe in nothing. We believe in

[51:57] money.

[51:58] And these kids think that there's

[52:00] loyalty. I just named every boss that's

[52:01] ratting. I just named Sammy Gravano.

[52:04] Let's put it at somebody in his shoes.

[52:06] He was quiet. He never got caught on

[52:09] tapes. He didn't brag. He didn't talk

[52:11] about murders that we committed in the

[52:13] past that it's it's our law if you do

[52:15] bring it up, you're killed for it.

[52:17] He didn't go against his boss. He was a

[52:19] big money maker. He was a family man. He

[52:21] didn't run around like a lot of us did

[52:23] with women. He was a perfect gangster.

[52:25] That guy was a perfect gangster, and he

[52:28] was quiet.

[52:30] Now, he's known to be a rat, right?

[52:32] That's what the the

[52:33] journalists around the world projected

[52:35] him as. That's what the gangsters did.

[52:38] But, who's really the rat? This guy did

[52:40] everything from Gotti gave him up every

[52:42] which way. And he didn't get a chance to

[52:44] kill Gotti. Maybe if he got a chance to,

[52:46] he would have never spoke, but instead

[52:48] he was in handcuffs going to go do 10

[52:49] life sentences because of Gotti's big

[52:52] mouth, because he betrayed Sammy

[52:54] Gravano. Sammy didn't betray anybody.

[52:56] Wait wait, did you just say if Sammy had

[52:57] the chance to kill Gotti, he would have?

[52:59] Of course. He would have.

[53:00] 100%.

[53:01] Do you think Sammy was a threat to Gotti

[53:04] because the street saw Sammy more as the

[53:06] power guy than Gotti because Sammy was

[53:07] getting all the contacts and the relay

[53:09] like he could eventually be a boss or

[53:10] not at all?

[53:10] No, because Sammy didn't have an ego. He

[53:12] had no aspirations to take over. He

[53:14] didn't care to John wanted to be a

[53:15] front.

[53:16] No, Sammy had no ego.

[53:17] Was that known? Yeah, it was known

[53:19] because Sammy didn't have the ego. Sammy

[53:21] stood back. Sammy only cared about

[53:22] making money, staying with his family.

[53:24] time did you spend with Sammy? Over the

[53:25] years, I was He was always around like I

[53:27] was around. I you know, you're watching

[53:29] you buddies? Were you friends with him?

[53:30] buddies with him at all. I was loyal to

[53:32] the Gottis. So, for me to say this, I

[53:34] was a Gotti loyalist. I wasn't a Sammy

[53:36] Gravano loyalist. But, you know, if

[53:38] you're going to speak about the mob and

[53:39] honestly in history, history needs to be

[53:42] correct, right? It can't be somebody

[53:44] that's in love with the the romance of

[53:47] the Gotti story. I mean, you said

[53:49] something about the Gottis, which is

[53:51] which is quite interesting. You said

[53:53] anything that preserves Gotti junior's

[53:55] image is glorifying the mob. If you're

[53:58] glorifying the mob, you're killing kids,

[54:00] you're teaching kids to respect the

[54:02] coward.

[54:04] You're you're calling John Gotti junior

[54:07] and senior a coward. Is that is that

[54:09] what you're saying? Like they were

[54:10] cowards? Listen, I'm calling all of them

[54:12] cowards, the Gottis. I'm calling Genie

[54:14] Gotti a coward. He was in jail with me.

[54:16] He was my cellmate. I slapped him around

[54:18] in jail. I didn't slap him around just

[54:20] to talk. Here, Teddy Persico was there,

[54:22] Carmine Persico's brother. Mikey

[54:24] Spinelli, a known killer, was there.

[54:26] Patty DeLaRosa, all made guys. They're

[54:28] all there. Let somebody ask them, "Did I

[54:30] do it? Did I have Louis Andino from GQ

[54:33] we used to call him, Rob Genie Gotti?

[54:35] Did I have James Perry slap him and

[54:37] throw a chair at him? Did I have Mark

[54:38] Giuliani do it? Did we beat up and hurt

[54:41] Ali Calabrese in jail?" You see him in

[54:43] the Irishman, they talk about he's a

[54:45] gangster's gangster. Nobody did nothing

[54:46] about it. Why not? These guys were all

[54:48] there with me. Everybody knows the

[54:50] story. So, when people say when they

[54:52] talk when they don't have knowledge of

[54:54] what they're speaking about, but I'm

[54:56] speaking from facts.

[54:59] And I ask people look it up. Pete Gotti

[55:01] never used a gun. Never. John Gotti

[55:03] senior never killed anybody with his own

[55:05] hand. John Gotti senior never killed

[55:07] anybody.

[55:07] Never with his own hand. It's easy to

[55:08] ask somebody else to do it. Here, I'll

[55:09] give you a gun, so you kill him.

[55:10] Zero. He's never killed anybody. How

[55:12] would you know that though?

[55:12] I know everything about him. Where's

[55:14] He's dead. Where's everybody that have

[55:16] it?

[55:16] that's the part somebody may say he

[55:18] doesn't have You're going after a guy

[55:20] that's dead. He can't defend himself.

[55:22] son can.

[55:23] Right? He's dead. Let him come out. This

[55:25] FBI alive Let There's so many rats out

[55:27] there. Joe Massino is a rat, knows him

[55:29] his whole life. Right? Why isn't he

[55:31] talking about Al D'Arco? Why isn't he

[55:33] talking about There's a million guys out

[55:35] there that hung around. All the guys

[55:37] that cooperated around the Gambino

[55:39] family, nobody put a gun in Gotti's hand

[55:41] ever. I was friendly with Willie Boy

[55:43] Johnson before he cooperated, while he

[55:46] was cooperating. We all were.

[55:47] And when he spouted off or Angelo

[55:50] Ruggiero spouted off, they all said the

[55:51] same thing. But, I'm not I'm talking

[55:53] about facts because you have FBI

[55:55] information. You have guys that ratted.

[55:57] You have guys that stayed with them. You

[55:59] have You you have Carmine Agnello. Never

[56:01] used a gun. His brother-in-law. He ran

[56:03] to Cleveland, he had a 16-count

[56:05] indictment. They closed the courtroom.

[56:07] What did he do to get out of it?

[56:09] He got guns in his house. I mean, these

[56:11] are facts. These aren't you know, so

[56:13] when kids are looking up at these guys,

[56:15] I'm telling them, "Don't you open your

[56:16] eyes cuz I never opened my eyes until

[56:18] now. And now that I have a voice, I can

[56:20] save kids' lives." But but why why is

[56:23] the story being told otherwise? Why why

[56:26] is uh

[56:28] Why is the story being told? Because

[56:30] isn't one of the criteria of being a

[56:32] made man, you have to kill somebody?

[56:34] Isn't that one of the criteria or it's

[56:35] not?

[56:36] all.

[56:36] can be a made man and a boss, and you've

[56:38] never killed anybody. Correct. Okay, the

[56:40] second thing. Isn't one of the codes of

[56:42] being a mobster, you can never talk to a

[56:44] government official, FBI You can never

[56:47] do that. I did that.

[56:49] do that. What is Gotti junior sitting

[56:50] with the FBI making 302s when I'm

[56:52] sitting in Brazil penitentiary? And he

[56:55] could give me 20 life sentences. So,

[56:57] tell me who betrayed who. I'm in the

[56:59] jail. I'm in a dungeon. I'm getting beat

[57:01] up.

[57:01] saying he didn't say anything, and

[57:02] nobody got arrested afterwards. That's

[57:04] what he says that nothing happened.

[57:05] That's what I'm I'm repeating what he

[57:06] said. You know you know it yourself.

[57:08] Okay. You find me one gangster

[57:10] because he could tell that to the public

[57:12] cuz they don't know any better. We know

[57:13] our laws.

[57:14] He sat with them. He gave information

[57:16] against us. He was an informant just

[57:18] like Willie Boy Johnson.

[57:20] And we all

[57:21] copped pleas.

[57:23] Joe Watts had to cop to a murder. Danny

[57:25] Marino had to cop to a murder because of

[57:27] John's

[57:28] testimony, and he refused to get on the

[57:30] stand against him. He only wanted to

[57:32] feed information. That's the truth of

[57:34] it. He was locked up for the Silver Fox.

[57:36] He stabbed the kid from behind his

[57:37] children. It's an open murder. He can

[57:39] never get locked up for it. Why not?

[57:41] Kevin Bonner testified against all of

[57:43] us. Great witness. His girlfriend, great

[57:44] witness. They were all there. There was

[57:46] How many testimonies if they said they

[57:48] seen him stab him, and he admitted and

[57:49] to me, too, he admitted he did it. He

[57:51] stabbed him, and he killed him. So, why

[57:53] isn't he getting arrested for that

[57:54] murder? What

[57:56] Ask law enforcement. Get an explanation,

[57:58] but I have his 302s. We put it in the

[58:00] book. Documents of what he was saying.

[58:03] People he was giving up. Politicians he

[58:05] was giving up. Other guys he was giving

[58:07] up. He gave up his friends. He put other

[58:09] friends in a murder investigation that's

[58:11] still open that can is never closed. And

[58:14] he put them all at that location. So,

[58:16] for him to say to the media First of he

[58:18] did say he did rat, actually, on video.

[58:21] Said he ratted. Then he said he only

[58:23] ratted a little. Then he said he only

[58:24] ratted against his enemies. And then he

[58:26] went back and said, "I was just trying

[58:27] to trick the FBI."

[58:29] It it's it's It's

[58:31] not even a conversation to have. He

[58:33] ratted. It's stupid. He sat with the

[58:35] government. He made a deal. He backed up

[58:37] on the deal five different times. But,

[58:39] that's really not the the issue is not

[58:41] what he just did at that time of

[58:43] ratting. The issue is one after another

[58:45] these guys aren't using guns. One after

[58:47] another these guys' bosses, and not just

[58:49] the Gottis, bosses around each family

[58:52] are ratting.

[58:53] And they're trying to take guys like me

[58:56] to do the killing, to do the shooting,

[58:58] to do the beating, and say he's nobody.

[59:01] And then use those kids to get life

[59:03] sentences for them. And these guys walk

[59:05] away, and they they make deals on the

[59:06] side like Gotti did.

[59:07] John, how many years did you do? How

[59:09] many how much time did you do?

[59:10] I I I went away the Somebody put in

[59:13] there 6 years for this, 3 years for

[59:14] this. Not true. I went away for 3 and

[59:16] 1/2 years for a gun. I went away in

[59:19] Brazil for 2 and 1/2 years. I came home.

[59:21] I did 10 years here for this case. I

[59:23] went in and out of jail for an assault

[59:26] in '90 '91. I went back in 2001. I went

[59:29] out again in 2002, back in jail. So,

[59:31] when these guys talk How much total

[59:34] time?

[59:34] Total time about 18 years in and out.

[59:36] How come it's 18 years if you've killed

[59:37] so many people? Why are you not doing

[59:39] life?

[59:40] Because I'm the first guy to say, when

[59:41] Gotti ratted they came when I came back

[59:44] to the United States

[59:45] and whatever happened with

[59:46] when Brazil extradited you?

[59:48] extradited me back and I got the

[59:49] paperwork of Gotti ratting. When I was

[59:52] in Brazil, they flew to me. They showed

[59:53] it to you? They showed the the

[59:55] uh the consulate the excuse me, the

[59:58] consulate of the family, Joseph Corrao

[01:00:00] his son, Joe Corrao, was a lawyer

[01:00:02] defending Ronnie Trucchio

[01:00:04] at the trial in Tampa. I was absentee.

[01:00:08] Ronnie Wanum's opening statement was

[01:00:09] giving Junior up because Junior was rat.

[01:00:12] He gave me up on a drug end because I

[01:00:14] gave permission to give me up. But I

[01:00:16] didn't give him permission to give me up

[01:00:17] on murders.

[01:00:18] And he started giving me up on murders.

[01:00:20] But that information the whole family

[01:00:23] knows he's a rat. He's been shelved,

[01:00:24] he's been chased.

[01:00:26] Did people want to kill him? Of course

[01:00:27] they wanted to kill him. Will they kill

[01:00:28] him? Who know They don't know what

[01:00:29] information he gave. Will they kill who?

[01:00:32] Junior?

[01:00:32] Junior. Because people ask, why is he

[01:00:34] alive? Today? Today, always. He he he's

[01:00:36] always going to have some

[01:00:37] Who's going to kill him today?

[01:00:38] Well, you listen, it's like

[01:00:39] Persico died, Cali died. I mean, it's

[01:00:41] it's calmed down.

[01:00:42] not a killer, but and unfortunately, he

[01:00:43] died cuz I really thought he was a he

[01:00:45] was a decent guy.

[01:00:46] That's what a lot of people tell me.

[01:00:47] They say he's a really decent guy. I

[01:00:48] think I I think the whole Gambino

[01:00:50] faction

[01:00:50] to turn it around and he

[01:00:51] Well, I I I speak openly, honestly. The

[01:00:53] Gambino faction are gentlemen. They're

[01:00:55] quiet. They don't bother nobody. What

[01:00:56] they do for a living, I can't judge

[01:00:58] them. All I'm judging is when guys are

[01:01:01] telling guys put a pistol in your hair

[01:01:02] and and tell a kid to kill, I'm telling

[01:01:04] the kids don't go into life. I'm not

[01:01:06] telling an adult don't stay in that

[01:01:08] life. I'm not. How are you alive? So,

[01:01:10] you've killed all these guys. I mean,

[01:01:12] it's not a short list of people. If

[01:01:14] you've hit

[01:01:15] a baseball bat 100 people, you know, if

[01:01:17] you do something to my family and I'm in

[01:01:19] that world, I don't know how long, you

[01:01:21] know, so how come nobody has retaliated

[01:01:24] to you? If you have this many numbers of

[01:01:27] hits, how come you're still around?

[01:01:29] You're probably figure. You live in a

[01:01:30] New York. It's not like you're living in

[01:01:32] Montana. Listen, because I'm not Pete

[01:01:34] Gotti. People know I'm vicious. And if

[01:01:36] you come after me and you don't kill me,

[01:01:38] they know that I'm going to probably do

[01:01:39] something. I understand, but that's a

[01:01:40] that's a pretty quick fix though, right?

[01:01:42] If somebody says, "So, just make sure he

[01:01:43] doesn't live." Well, so why are you

[01:01:45] alive? Well, who's going to kill me?

[01:01:46] Pete Gotti? No, he's I mean, if he was

[01:01:48] out. He's in jail. No. Who? Jackie Nose?

[01:01:50] He never used a gun, either. Who? Mikey

[01:01:52] Scars? No, he never used a gun. Carmine

[01:01:53] Nello? He never used a gun. Right. You

[01:01:55] got to go find somebody who used a gun

[01:01:56] in the first

[01:01:57] this to try to create an event. I'm

[01:01:58] asking this question to But if I was

[01:02:01] worried about that, honestly, I wouldn't

[01:02:02] live in New York. You wouldn't live in

[01:02:03] New York.

[01:02:04] I think I

[01:02:05] I give you a lot of credit for that

[01:02:07] because

[01:02:08] and not that others who go and live in

[01:02:09] another place, it's, you know, it's to

[01:02:11] to each his own, but you decide to stay

[01:02:13] in a place like that. You know, one of

[01:02:15] one of the things I was thinking about

[01:02:16] when I was looking at this, I got a

[01:02:17] couple other questions we'll go through

[01:02:18] here.

[01:02:19] But one of the things I was thinking

[01:02:20] about when I was looking at this

[01:02:22] is sometimes

[01:02:25] um

[01:02:28] the the the the person to be the most

[01:02:30] careful with and I and I want to preface

[01:02:32] it in a way and you can

[01:02:34] come back and answer it in any way you

[01:02:36] want. I I just want to I just want to

[01:02:37] hear your thoughts on this.

[01:02:39] Sometimes

[01:02:41] um

[01:02:42] say there's a kid

[01:02:44] who, you know, he's got a brother and

[01:02:46] the brother's born in America and he's

[01:02:48] not born in America, but this kid's more

[01:02:51] driven to be a president and this

[01:02:53] family, the father is pressuring them to

[01:02:55] be a president one day and this brother

[01:02:58] knows no matter what he does, he can't

[01:03:00] ever become a president even though he

[01:03:01] wants to become a president more than he

[01:03:03] wants to become a president, but he

[01:03:04] can't because he was born here, this guy

[01:03:05] wasn't. It's a law. You can't do nothing

[01:03:07] about it, right? Okay.

[01:03:09] And sometimes this guy on this side

[01:03:12] who maybe have more qualities to be

[01:03:16] a president that his father wants him to

[01:03:17] be. They want to make father proud,

[01:03:18] right? Yeah, I want to be the guy that

[01:03:19] become comes through and leaves a legacy

[01:03:21] for your last name, Pops. You came here

[01:03:22] from another country. I'm going to do my

[01:03:24] part, Germany, whatever you want to talk

[01:03:25] about it.

[01:03:28] In the book 48 Laws of Power, I don't

[01:03:29] know if you read the book 48 Laws of

[01:03:30] Power, Robert Greene. Law number one,

[01:03:32] never outshine the master, right?

[01:03:35] Do you think there was a little bit of

[01:03:36] that spirit felt about you or no? That

[01:03:39] wasn't at all because did they kind of

[01:03:41] get a feeling of tension to say this

[01:03:42] guy's a little too ambitious?

[01:03:44] You know, and was that kind of your

[01:03:46] frustration to say

[01:03:47] you know, if I can't go out there and,

[01:03:49] you know,

[01:03:50] get all the way to the top, screw it.

[01:03:51] I'm going to go out there and throw

[01:03:52] everybody under the bus. How much of it

[01:03:54] was that? And again, if you completely

[01:03:56] disagree, I'd love to hear your views on

[01:03:58] this.

[01:03:58] here's the thing.

[01:03:59] You know what I'm saying with this part,

[01:04:01] right?

[01:04:01] You got to understand, in any aspect of

[01:04:03] life, envious people and jealous people

[01:04:06] are dangerous people, right? So, when

[01:04:07] they see that I was successful, they see

[01:04:09] I was making money, they see I was

[01:04:10] dangerous, they see that I had a big

[01:04:13] crew of people. More than Gotti's?

[01:04:15] Gotti's didn't have it. John Gotti Jr.,

[01:04:17] if you can find me a killer that was

[01:04:19] around him besides Bobby Boriello

[01:04:21] because Bobby was killed, but he Bobby

[01:04:23] wasn't a kid that could go on the street

[01:04:24] and baseball

[01:04:25] John, you're saying you were bigger than

[01:04:26] Gotti Sr. and Jr.?

[01:04:27] No. No, no, I'm not saying that. You

[01:04:29] Senior had a ton of guys. Junior didn't

[01:04:31] have guys. Junior had not a shooter

[01:04:33] around him. But are you making more

[01:04:34] money than Senior? No, no, of course

[01:04:36] Okay. So, so what I'm what I the

[01:04:38] question I'm asking is was there a level

[01:04:40] of envy from you towards them?

[01:04:42] No, not at Listen. Senior All I used The

[01:04:45] only The respect level is this. As you

[01:04:48] getting older, you're intelligent unless

[01:04:50] you're a a dummy and you just follow

[01:04:51] blindly.

[01:04:53] But you start seeing.

[01:04:54] I was betrayed by them. So, yeah, there

[01:04:57] is I was loyal to the mob. They betrayed

[01:04:59] me. There's no way you can turn around

[01:05:01] the fact that John Gotti Jr. met with

[01:05:04] the government in 2000 and three or four

[01:05:07] and then he signed papers a year later,

[01:05:08] 2005. He can't change that. That's a

[01:05:11] fact. That's when he was in and that's

[01:05:13] when I was in the penitentiaries in

[01:05:14] Brazil. You can't correlate He can't try

[01:05:17] He can try till he's dead. You can't

[01:05:19] correlate whatever I did for what you

[01:05:21] did. You did this five years earlier.

[01:05:24] So, I don't know how he's even trying to

[01:05:25] correlate whatever he did, his actions.

[01:05:27] The rest of the mob knows he's a rat.

[01:05:29] Okay. Now, did I come in after that?

[01:05:32] Yes. Did Ronnie Wanum cooperate? No. But

[01:05:35] did he give a statement said he was

[01:05:36] afraid I'd kill him like everybody else?

[01:05:39] Of course he did. What kind of statement

[01:05:40] is that? So, that's okay? Or the guy

[01:05:42] that comes in

[01:05:44] and he's not the only guy. Mikey Scars

[01:05:46] cooperated, captain. And I'll go I just

[01:05:48] said I went through a list. I can go

[01:05:49] through more.

[01:05:49] Sure. So, why am I loyal to a life of

[01:05:52] Italians when I'm Albanian

[01:05:54] and they're not loyal to their own life?

[01:05:56] So, this is and they're giving me up at

[01:05:58] the same time. And all my guys are

[01:06:01] giving me up and other guys who Who am I

[01:06:02] being loyal to? Because they're not

[01:06:04] being loyal to themselves.

[01:06:06] So, what do I owe them? They owe me

[01:06:08] nothing when I left my family. They owed

[01:06:10] me nothing when I stood in those

[01:06:11] penitentiaries and I wouldn't rat on my

[01:06:13] enemies. I wouldn't rat on anybody. I

[01:06:15] left everything to to to be true to that

[01:06:18] life that I believed in. But one after

[01:06:20] another, made guy after a made guy are

[01:06:23] giving me up and giving information

[01:06:25] against other made guys and bosses. I'm

[01:06:27] not just talking about just underlings

[01:06:29] or made guys. I'm talking about who's

[01:06:31] Who's going to deny the fact that these

[01:06:33] guys are ratting like crazy? Was it

[01:06:35] public when you retired in '99 or no?

[01:06:37] Like, did you tell them I'm retired cuz

[01:06:38] you've said you retired in '99.

[01:06:41] '99. '90

[01:06:43] In '99 did you retire or In '99 I got

[01:06:46] out of jail, 2000. Right. In 2000, I

[01:06:49] don't know if I said I'd retired or

[01:06:51] didn't retire. I was still in the mob.

[01:06:52] You were still in the mob. Yeah. So, in

[01:06:54] 2001 when you was there a recording you

[01:06:56] heard with you and your uncle where they

[01:06:57] said, you know, he's he's not a made

[01:06:59] man, he's a skipper, or something like

[01:07:01] that? Is there is there something with

[01:07:02] that recording you heard with your uncle

[01:07:04] or no?

[01:07:05] There was a recording. You're talking

[01:07:06] about Stevie Knowles incident.

[01:07:08] Yes. And I there there was a meeting

[01:07:10] with John Gotti Jr., Stevie Knowles

[01:07:14] uh John Gotti Jr., excuse me, stayed

[01:07:16] across the street with sending messages

[01:07:17] back and forth to Carmine Agnello. Pete

[01:07:19] Gotti was involved. They're talking

[01:07:20] about hitting me.

[01:07:22] I shot Stevie Knowles. The guy they're

[01:07:24] supposed to be protecting and they asked

[01:07:26] Stevie Knowles, "Can you kill Johnny

[01:07:27] Alite?" It's it's a joke. You're asking

[01:07:30] the guy I just shot that you're supposed

[01:07:31] to be protecting to kill me. Why don't

[01:07:33] you kill me? You just said you're going

[01:07:34] to protect this guy and I told you go

[01:07:36] [ __ ] yourself and I shot him. How did

[01:07:37] you hear about that they wanted to put a

[01:07:39] hit on you?

[01:07:39] about that. I said that to them because

[01:07:42] the FBI came to my house and said there

[01:07:43] was a death threat on you and we have to

[01:07:45] report it. So, instead, they said, "Are

[01:07:47] you going to tell them?" And this was in

[01:07:49] about '94. But they said, "Are you going

[01:07:52] to tell the guys?" I said, "Yeah, I am."

[01:07:53] And I went and I and I switched the

[01:07:55] story to them and I said I heard a

[01:07:57] recording, "You guys were going to kill

[01:07:58] me."

[01:08:00] So, at that same story, I says, "Well, I

[01:08:03] just

[01:08:04] robbed Joe Cain that you're supposed to

[01:08:06] be protecting and I stabbed him a second

[01:08:08] time. He's did nothing. I took Richie

[01:08:10] Gotti Sr.'s brother's son-in-law. I beat

[01:08:13] him to death on the street. He lived

[01:08:14] because the guy the skipper from Bonanno

[01:08:17] family saved his life, the same guy

[01:08:18] that's bringing him to me, set him up

[01:08:20] for me, brought him to the hospital,

[01:08:21] Ronnie G. Lorenzo.

[01:08:23] They did nothing. I shot my cousin that

[01:08:26] was Gotti said, "Don't pay the cop for

[01:08:28] payoff fee." He did nothing. I robbed

[01:08:31] two book bookmakers around him. They did

[01:08:33] nothing. I beat his uncle up in jail.

[01:08:35] They did nothing. I beat up Ali

[01:08:37] Calabrese in prison with other guys and

[01:08:40] these were they did nothing. They don't

[01:08:42] do nothing, but then they went ratted on

[01:08:43] me.

[01:08:44] So, you had your chance to kill me over

[01:08:46] and over again. How many things can I do

[01:08:48] to these? I says, "But when they change

[01:08:50] that story, so when when Charles came to

[01:08:53] me and we can go on story after story.

[01:08:55] And if you're so loyal to Gotti right?

[01:08:58] Why is he robbing Papavero Funeral Home

[01:09:00] with me?

[01:09:01] Charles Carneglia. Why are you robbing

[01:09:02] it with me? In 2000 and whatever year we

[01:09:05] did it, one, two, three, something like

[01:09:06] that. We robbed the funeral home of John

[01:09:09] Gotti's main guy. He was buried there.

[01:09:12] He had his funeral there. I didn't give

[01:09:14] a [ __ ] He was alive. Actually, we

[01:09:16] robbed it in '94, excuse me. Gotti just

[01:09:18] went to jail. So, if I'm this guy that

[01:09:20] don't care about anything, then why is a

[01:09:21] made guy running around with me robbing

[01:09:23] things?

[01:09:24] If he doesn't answer to me. If he

[01:09:26] doesn't respect me, if he's that they

[01:09:28] don't think I'm nothing. Why you

[01:09:30] robbing? Why you have no respect for the

[01:09:32] guy he's doing that with me? Why you

[01:09:34] helping me giving me guns to shoot my

[01:09:36] cousin that's around Ross from the

[01:09:38] Genovese family and and he's running a

[01:09:40] bread union with him. Why why you coming

[01:09:43] giving me a machine gun and a 9 mm to

[01:09:45] kill John Gotti Jr., Pete Gotti and

[01:09:47] Carmine Agnello?

[01:09:49] And if that's not true,

[01:09:50] get the guys that testified against me.

[01:09:52] One of them was my cousin and knows

[01:09:54] about it. And well, uh Cubo Cubanelli

[01:09:57] has I put the guns in his safe. He's a

[01:09:59] tattoo guy in the neighborhood. He's

[01:10:00] still around.

[01:10:01] If it ain't true, well, Andrew D'Onofrio

[01:10:03] that wrote a book about it said Nicky

[01:10:04] Corozzo told him, yeah. That but he

[01:10:06] didn't mention it. He didn't know it was

[01:10:07] me that was going to do it. And I

[01:10:08] wouldn't give the guns back. So, why

[01:10:12] why are they so afraid of me if I'm this

[01:10:14] junkie nobody?

[01:10:15] Right? So, this is the the the point is

[01:10:17] I went ran through these guys and they

[01:10:19] never did anything.

[01:10:21] And my message is still the same.

[01:10:23] That's the past. I'm a different guy

[01:10:26] now. If I wasn't, I would be retaliating

[01:10:28] against guys when they talk so much the

[01:10:30] way I used to. Now, I send the message.

[01:10:33] My life has changed. I'm the same guy.

[01:10:36] I mean, don't get me wrong. If somebody

[01:10:38] tries to hurt me, I'm going to protect

[01:10:39] myself. But, my message to the kids day

[01:10:42] and night is going to be the kids to

[01:10:44] stay away from this life.

[01:10:46] When did you cooperate? Was it '05 when

[01:10:48] you cooperated? No, I cooperated when I

[01:10:50] came back about '07. '07 is when you

[01:10:53] cooperated?

[01:10:54] It was uh '07, yeah. It was uh

[01:10:57] '07 towards '08.

[01:10:59] Articles say 2005. You were in '07 was

[01:11:01] it '07?

[01:11:01] Brazil Penitentiary.

[01:11:03] Okay. Guys cooperated 2004 and '05.

[01:11:05] Four 2004 and '05, yeah.

[01:11:07] like three or four late years later and

[01:11:09] I sign officially about five years

[01:11:11] later. What what's the story with when

[01:11:12] you went to court to testify this one

[01:11:15] one of the jury members Paul

[01:11:17] Peragine Peragine however you want to

[01:11:19] pronounce I want to hear your views from

[01:11:21] this. Almost the entire jury didn't

[01:11:22] believe the star witness yourself. He

[01:11:25] wasn't credible at all. What what is

[01:11:27] this all about? It's written about in

[01:11:28] different places.

[01:11:30] Well, first of all, this guy's you know,

[01:11:32] we use terminologies in mob hump.

[01:11:34] So, he's a mob

[01:11:35] Paulie's Yeah, why would you go out to

[01:11:37] dinner with Gotti after the trial? Why

[01:11:39] did you go socialize with him for?

[01:11:41] That's first off. Second, I can't

[01:11:43] control what other witnesses stay on say

[01:11:45] on the stand. You know, if somebody says

[01:11:47] something different that didn't even

[01:11:49] hang around us like Peter Zaccaro.

[01:11:51] He's you know, he's a big mouth. He

[01:11:53] worked with me. He stayed with me.

[01:11:55] He was going to set up the murder of of

[01:11:57] of Pete Gotti, Junior Gotti and Carmine

[01:11:59] Agnello.

[01:12:00] But his brother was his dad his

[01:12:02] brother's a tough guy. These guys used

[01:12:03] to come visit me in prison or whatever.

[01:12:05] So, when he says something

[01:12:07] at that on the stand, I can't control

[01:12:09] what he says. I he never came to our

[01:12:11] clubs.

[01:12:12] Actually, Johnny King sent me to hurt

[01:12:14] him too when he first came home.

[01:12:15] And

[01:12:16] what's his name? Provate was there. Dave

[01:12:18] Provate owns a junkyard by Shea Stadium

[01:12:20] the old Shea Stadium. He was there when

[01:12:22] I went for him.

[01:12:23] So, when these guys are talking, I can't

[01:12:24] change but here's one of the reasons why

[01:12:26] this jury didn't believe me. Because

[01:12:28] there's guys witness after witness

[01:12:30] saying I'm too dangerous on all the

[01:12:32] trials. Get the paperwork that this guy

[01:12:34] can't control me.

[01:12:35] Partially, they all right. He can't

[01:12:37] control me on everything but I do work

[01:12:38] for the Gambino family. So, the their

[01:12:40] view is I'm lying because no one's

[01:12:42] controlling me because Joe King got on

[01:12:44] the stand saying one thing. Uh Johnny

[01:12:47] another kid gets on the stand saying

[01:12:49] Gotti never did anything. A-alike's

[01:12:50] crazy. He baseball batted me. Stevie

[01:12:52] Knowles getting on the stand saying

[01:12:53] Johnny A-alike chopped me. Ronnie One

[01:12:55] I'm saying I'm scared Johnny A-alike's

[01:12:57] going to kill me. I'm a captain in

[01:12:58] Gambino family. So, what is the jury

[01:13:00] going to say?

[01:13:01] They say this guy's a maniac out of

[01:13:03] control. Since I came home,

[01:13:05] the Gotti family

[01:13:07] uh this is a fact. The Gotti family

[01:13:09] wrote my parole the whole family wrote I

[01:13:12] don't know how many letters to my parole

[01:13:13] wrote to my parole's boss wrote to my

[01:13:15] judge

[01:13:16] 2013 '14. Yeah. Gotti had his right to

[01:13:20] write them and say I'm a killer and I'm

[01:13:22] going to kill somebody in the Gotti

[01:13:23] family. They need to lock me up. You're

[01:13:25] going to kill somebody in the Gotti

[01:13:26] family?

[01:13:27] And I'm going to kill the brother or

[01:13:28] somebody in their family. They need to

[01:13:29] lock me up. I violated my parole. Every

[01:13:32] gangster around the streets active and

[01:13:34] not active still in touch with me. I'm

[01:13:35] in the drug business. I'm still in the

[01:13:37] construction business and I'm a nobody

[01:13:39] but everybody from every crew is getting

[01:13:41] in touch with me. So,

[01:13:42] what are these letters?

[01:13:44] And Gotti himself and his lawyers wrote

[01:13:46] a letter into the judge saying that he

[01:13:48] feared for his life. And his sister

[01:13:50] wrote a letter in 1992 he doesn't have

[01:13:52] the stomach

[01:13:53] for the mob world.

[01:13:55] So,

[01:13:56] but my thing with the Gottis is it's not

[01:13:58] about the Gottis. It's about the Gambino

[01:14:00] family. The thing about correlating John

[01:14:02] Gotti Jr. becoming a rat in 2004 2005

[01:14:06] has completely nothing to do with me

[01:14:08] while I'm in the Penitentiary in Brazil.

[01:14:10] I'm just curious how they keep trying to

[01:14:12] correlate him ratting and me coming in

[01:14:14] after the fact for three four five years

[01:14:16] later. The correlation doesn't even make

[01:14:19] a little sense. Who's behind the

[01:14:20] website? Who's behind the website?

[01:14:22] John Gotti Jr. How certain are you of

[01:14:24] that? 100% The guy Chris Carparosa said

[01:14:26] he works for John Gotti Jr. The guy who

[01:14:28] runs the website

[01:14:29] says he works for John Gotti Jr.

[01:14:32] This is very similar to what the

[01:14:34] Scientology Church does.

[01:14:36] I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off.

[01:14:37] Go on my Google

[01:14:39] and read my Wikipedia. He controls it.

[01:14:42] He locked it. He changed the the the

[01:14:44] writing of what was on Wikipedia. Who

[01:14:46] did? John Gotti Jr. Chris Carparosa. You

[01:14:49] can't even rewrite on it if you want.

[01:14:51] When's the last time you were in contact

[01:14:52] with John Gotti Jr.?

[01:14:54] I was in Long Island at a diner when I

[01:14:56] first came home. '13? Uh '13. I had a

[01:14:59] meeting there with a couple guys and six

[01:15:01] police cars came and they informed me

[01:15:04] that Gotti called up and said that he

[01:15:06] had fear that I was going to kill him

[01:15:07] that he lives around the corner

[01:15:08] somewhere.

[01:15:09] I don't know if that's true or not.

[01:15:10] him or no? No, I didn't see him. And

[01:15:12] then the letters started coming into my

[01:15:14] parole that I left my area and I've been

[01:15:16] in different areas in New York and I did

[01:15:18] not allowed to leave New Jersey

[01:15:20] Philadelphia area. So,

[01:15:22] the the thing that's is is mind-boggling

[01:15:25] to me is the way he

[01:15:27] won't let this go. I even gave up social

[01:15:29] media years ago because I'm not going to

[01:15:32] play these kid games with him forever,

[01:15:33] you know? So, but the the answer is

[01:15:36] still back to the same thing. How you

[01:15:38] correlating if you became a rat

[01:15:41] anything to do with me?

[01:15:43] Would you like to face off with him? Not

[01:15:45] not fight face off and have a

[01:15:46] conversation with him. Would you want to

[01:15:47] sit down I'll sit here tomorrow with

[01:15:49] you. We get him on the air and we're

[01:15:50] going to talk him about and we'll start

[01:15:52] with his father so we don't have to talk

[01:15:53] about him. We'll talk about his father.

[01:15:55] I want to know what when did he ever use

[01:15:57] a gun?

[01:15:58] I want to know when a gun was in his

[01:15:59] hand besides that in fantasy story he

[01:16:01] told in his book that his father left

[01:16:03] Green Haven or one of the prisons and

[01:16:05] his two marshals with him. They went to

[01:16:07] a dentist office. He went out the back

[01:16:09] door. So, he had about 30 people that

[01:16:11] were witnesses that he was brought to a

[01:16:12] dentist so he went out the door and he

[01:16:13] did a murder.

[01:16:14] That's the best he could come to a

[01:16:16] murder for his father.

[01:16:17] It's

[01:16:18] the kids got to know.

[01:16:20] The kids got to know. Was his father

[01:16:22] Now, let me straighten some out. Was his

[01:16:23] father a gangster? 100%.

[01:16:26] Was he from the street? 100%.

[01:16:29] Did he have a lot of guys killed? 100%.

[01:16:32] Was he a big earner? No. Was he a

[01:16:34] degenerate gambler? Yes.

[01:16:36] Was he a tough guy? Yeah, he was a

[01:16:38] street guy. He was a tough Was he a

[01:16:39] killer with his own hand? No.

[01:16:42] Did he have killers around him? Yes. He

[01:16:44] had a ton of killers around him. Bobby

[01:16:45] Boriello was one of them. Johnny

[01:16:47] Carneglia was one of them. Eddie Lino

[01:16:49] was one of them. Joe Watts was a big

[01:16:51] one. Sammy? Sammy without a doubt. These

[01:16:54] are guys that

[01:16:54] most feared out of all of those guys?

[01:16:57] Uh Sammy and Joe Watts without a doubt.

[01:16:59] Without a doubt? Without a doubt.

[01:17:01] Johnny's was tough for him too but

[01:17:03] without a doubt.

[01:17:03] At the peak when you were on Sammy, what

[01:17:05] was the different energy you felt from

[01:17:07] Sammy than you felt about the senior?

[01:17:09] Senior even as a kid senior wanted to

[01:17:11] intimidate you.

[01:17:13] Right? So, I grew up in the street. He

[01:17:16] wanted to fear you

[01:17:17] you know, and as a kid I wasn't

[01:17:18] intimidated. I would be a liar to say I

[01:17:19] was.

[01:17:20] Sure. You know, I wasn't intimidated. I

[01:17:22] wasn't impressed by him.

[01:17:23] But then as you're growing and you you

[01:17:25] understand the world is like going to

[01:17:27] kindergarten you you work your way up to

[01:17:28] college. When I looked at Sammy, you

[01:17:30] seen complete confidence.

[01:17:33] He walked

[01:17:36] with confidence. He didn't try to stare

[01:17:38] you down. He said hello. He didn't try

[01:17:39] to intimidate you. Hey kid. And even to

[01:17:41] today if you ask him when he met me, he

[01:17:43] doesn't know. And of course he doesn't

[01:17:44] know I He said hello but he doesn't

[01:17:46] specifically remember conversations cuz

[01:17:48] I'm a nobody. I'm a kid growing up and

[01:17:50] he's

[01:17:51] and you know, he's on the boss.

[01:17:53] So, why would he pay attention to just

[01:17:55] like guys that say they know me and I

[01:17:56] don't remember them because I'm in a

[01:17:58] different level. You're not going to

[01:17:59] remember these guys

[01:18:01] but he was always a gentleman. And as

[01:18:03] time went on, yes, he seen me more and

[01:18:06] he said hello more. But if you ask him

[01:18:07] specifically what did we talk about, he

[01:18:09] won't remember but I remember because to

[01:18:11] me it was a big deal just like it was a

[01:18:12] big deal talking to Gotti senior. But

[01:18:14] then you learn and you decipher, hey, is

[01:18:17] this guy a good leader? When you start

[01:18:19] watching people that are good leaders

[01:18:21] through history whether it's in law

[01:18:22] enforcement like we talk about Rudy

[01:18:24] Giuliani, right? Highly intelligent guy,

[01:18:27] good leader. He he decimated the the

[01:18:31] mafia but he made a statement. I did an

[01:18:34] interview down in Albania about the five

[01:18:36] families and the interviewer was

[01:18:39] very famous guy down there in the

[01:18:40] Balkans Blendy

[01:18:42] said that Gotti senior had a gun on him

[01:18:44] and I left. I says, you're wrong.

[01:18:47] And he says, well, that's what Rudy

[01:18:48] Giuliani did. I says, all due respect to

[01:18:51] Rudy Giuliani and I have a lot of

[01:18:52] respect for him.

[01:18:53] Is he wasn't in the car but Sammy

[01:18:56] Gravano was.

[01:18:57] And there was no gun in Gotti's lap or

[01:18:59] hand or jacket. He had no intention of

[01:19:01] getting out of that car no matter what.

[01:19:03] He was just going to send Sammy out.

[01:19:04] Sammy had the gun. So, it depends on

[01:19:07] where this information's coming from.

[01:19:08] Phil Baroni, right? And I'm going to

[01:19:11] slide back for a second was one of the

[01:19:13] guys who was an ex-detective that

[01:19:15] testified in Gotti's trials and he

[01:19:19] and this is the reason maybe I have

[01:19:20] problems with some of these juries. And

[01:19:21] he said he didn't know when we were

[01:19:23] going to kill Georgie Grasso.

[01:19:26] This is the detective that lived up the

[01:19:28] block from me. This is the detective

[01:19:31] that when I moved to Cherry Hill, New

[01:19:32] Jersey, 2 hours away, he moved next door

[01:19:34] to me. This is the detective that went

[01:19:36] to Mexico with me. He's my bookmaking

[01:19:38] partner with me. He's selling drugs with

[01:19:40] me. He's doing arm robberies with me.

[01:19:43] But he didn't know I was going to shoot

[01:19:45] this guy in the head.

[01:19:46] Who the [ __ ] going to believe that?

[01:19:47] Who's stupid enough to believe that? So

[01:19:49] if a jury thinks because he's saying he

[01:19:52] didn't know

[01:19:53] and Peter Secaira, the other guy is

[01:19:55] saying I he met me in the McDonald's

[01:19:58] somewhere and I said I don't even know

[01:19:59] where this McDonald's. We met in Burger

[01:20:01] King for a different occasion. Whatever

[01:20:03] stories these guys are telling, the only

[01:20:05] difference between my stories and them

[01:20:07] and is mine's a truth and I don't say I

[01:20:10] didn't kill these guys. I don't say I

[01:20:11] didn't shoot these guys. I don't say I'm

[01:20:13] involved in baseball batting these guys.

[01:20:15] But when these guys want to insult

[01:20:16] somebody and say you're only on vacation

[01:20:18] with me, Phil Baroni couldn't get any

[01:20:20] further up my ass. You're a detective

[01:20:23] that ran around with that badge with me

[01:20:24] and we did everything together for 20

[01:20:26] something years. You were giving us

[01:20:28] information

[01:20:30] when Genie Gotti and Johnny Carneglia

[01:20:31] had a problem.

[01:20:33] You giving information that

[01:20:36] John Gotti Sr. and Sammy were going to

[01:20:37] get pinched when they got pinched in

[01:20:39] '90.

[01:20:40] Where was that information come from? It

[01:20:41] was come from Phil Baroni. Where did he

[01:20:43] get it from?

[01:20:44] So when these guys are talking on

[01:20:46] Morgenthau's driver

[01:20:48] the district attorney's driver, Jimmy.

[01:20:50] I'm in his house. Why am I able to

[01:20:52] describe your whole house if you're not

[01:20:54] involved with me? What the [ __ ] was I

[01:20:55] doing in your house? These are you know,

[01:20:58] did his lawyers do a good job? Yeah, his

[01:21:00] lawyers did a good job. He had a lawyer,

[01:21:02] John Marigliano, was a fantastic

[01:21:05] attorney. Every time he walked in I

[01:21:07] said, "Oh, this guy again."

[01:21:08] Not because you're lying, because you

[01:21:10] know they're going to pick you apart.

[01:21:12] They're intelligent. So when you're on a

[01:21:13] stand and we can't have these

[01:21:14] conversations. Of course they're going

[01:21:16] to pick you apart. They're They're going

[01:21:18] and they're getting paperwork. And I'll

[01:21:20] give you an example.

[01:21:22] I had tons of paperwork from Brazil

[01:21:23] extradition and I was fighting my case.

[01:21:27] Marco, this guy, I sent him 750,000, he

[01:21:30] stole it.

[01:21:32] He denied it. A buddy of mine put all

[01:21:34] the documents with the money transfers

[01:21:35] to Brazil and they showed he stole the

[01:21:37] money. Gotti was friends with him.

[01:21:39] Gotti had him do a video.

[01:21:41] But Gotti doesn't tell everybody this

[01:21:42] guy, when I was locked up facing life in

[01:21:44] a death sentence, took all my paperwork

[01:21:47] and sent it back to the United States

[01:21:48] government to give me a life sentence on

[01:21:50] Gotti's behalf.

[01:21:52] So when

[01:21:54] I'm on the stand, they said they got all

[01:21:56] my papers.

[01:21:57] Did you say this? Yes. Is this part

[01:22:00] true? No. Is that part true? No. Is that

[01:22:02] part true? No, I'm lying. Because back

[01:22:04] then I wasn't cooperating. So I says

[01:22:06] that's when I was a gangster. This is

[01:22:08] how I was going to beat my cases. Yeah,

[01:22:09] I did order a murder from Brazil. Where

[01:22:12] you going to kill this guy from Brazil?

[01:22:13] This is all in the sweep. But I'm trying

[01:22:15] to say, yeah, you could take that

[01:22:17] paperwork, some of it's real, some of

[01:22:18] it's fake. I'm trying to save my life.

[01:22:20] Now I'm on the stand testifying against

[01:22:23] the guy who I called Whitey Bulger. You

[01:22:25] gave me up.

[01:22:27] Would you think it was I a fool? I was

[01:22:28] going to say I'm going to go to jail and

[01:22:29] do 10 life sentences for a guy that had

[01:22:32] my best friend from college, Timmy

[01:22:34] Donovan, testify against me cuz you said

[01:22:36] to? So he did and he testified for you?

[01:22:40] When you have the Accardi brothers, the

[01:22:41] the famous Trafficante family, John and

[01:22:43] Jason and the father testified against

[01:22:45] me because Gotti said they could?

[01:22:48] Or you have Robert Lamedolla testify

[01:22:50] against me because Gotti said he could?

[01:22:52] Or Joe Cain give fake information on the

[01:22:54] stand cuz he said so? Or Johnny, the car

[01:22:57] thief that I baseball batted cuz John

[01:22:59] Gotti said so?

[01:23:00] I could go through some more names that

[01:23:02] he told everybody to testify against me.

[01:23:04] They couldn't kill me, so this was the

[01:23:06] way they were going to kill me. He was

[01:23:07] ratting on me. So when I came back

[01:23:09] and I got all the paperwork and I found

[01:23:11] out everybody's testifying against and

[01:23:12] giving me up then yes, I did come in and

[01:23:15] I never hid the fact. I'm not like

[01:23:17] everybody else.

[01:23:18] I said you they betrayed me. I didn't

[01:23:20] betray anybody.

[01:23:21] So when I came in, it was years after

[01:23:23] John was in. It was years after Mikey

[01:23:25] Scars was in. It was years in captain.

[01:23:28] It was years in if a fat Dom was giving

[01:23:31] giving people up. It was made guy. These

[01:23:32] are all Gotti's guys.

[01:23:34] They're all talking. I'm not talking. I

[01:23:35] left my family.

[01:23:37] I left my money. I went penniless. I

[01:23:39] lived in Cuba. I lived in Colombia. I

[01:23:41] lived in Africa

[01:23:43] not to rat. So when these guys switching

[01:23:45] this, dates can't lie. Paperwork can't

[01:23:48] lie. The only difference is I've always

[01:23:50] been a man. I stand on my two feet. So

[01:23:52] when I came in, I come in and I don't

[01:23:54] hide the fact. You betrayed me. I owe

[01:23:55] you nothing.

[01:24:00] It's interesting listening to these

[01:24:02] stories. You know, for me, um

[01:24:04] I I I've interviewed a few CIA agents.

[01:24:07] One of the one we interviewed, she was

[01:24:08] the chief disguise officer of the US

[01:24:10] government. So she would disguise faces

[01:24:12] and she went to Bush one time. She

[01:24:14] disguised the face Bush couldn't

[01:24:15] recognize and she took the mask off

[01:24:17] saying how great of a disguise this was.

[01:24:19] She married another CIA agent because

[01:24:22] they met each other in the business.

[01:24:24] I said, "Let me ask you a question."

[01:24:27] How do you How do you believe each

[01:24:29] other?

[01:24:30] She says, "Uh it's a very good

[01:24:31] question." I said, "Because both of you

[01:24:33] are trained to lie for good reason,

[01:24:36] right? Because you lie

[01:24:38] to protect your country. So if you sit

[01:24:40] down with a Russian operative, you're

[01:24:42] not going to tell every story. You're

[01:24:43] going to lie as much as you can, right?

[01:24:46] So So how does one when when sitting and

[01:24:49] you hear all these stories

[01:24:52] um

[01:24:53] somebody who's not in the world, you

[01:24:55] just listen to the stories.

[01:24:57] You hear so many different sides and

[01:24:59] everybody sounds convincing.

[01:25:01] Well, you have to take, like I just

[01:25:03] said, you have to take Ronnie One-Arm's

[01:25:04] opening statement. Why did he say that?

[01:25:07] Why did he say he fears I'm going to

[01:25:08] kill him? You're a captain.

[01:25:10] Why would the guy I shoot say he's seen

[01:25:13] guys from the Gambino family, skip his

[01:25:14] answers to me? Why would you have the

[01:25:17] underboss of the Gambino family say

[01:25:19] he was our hitman for the Gambino

[01:25:21] family, specifically for the Gottis. He

[01:25:23] was their strong arm. Why would you have

[01:25:25] Mikey Scars, his skipper John Gotti

[01:25:28] Jr.'s best friend, right hand man, say

[01:25:30] I'm there during these conversations.

[01:25:32] Why would I be in Gotti's wedding? Why

[01:25:35] am I on a list giving him 5,000 at the

[01:25:37] Helmsley Palace when there's only a

[01:25:38] handful of gangsters around the world

[01:25:40] there?

[01:25:41] Why am I in sister's wedding? I mean,

[01:25:42] this is very simple. It's not my word.

[01:25:45] Why am I saying he's a rat? I have the

[01:25:47] paperwork.

[01:25:48] Why come in years later after they

[01:25:50] already [ __ ] me? So this is not This

[01:25:53] is step It's not my my word. This is

[01:25:55] step by step. When I was on the stand, I

[01:25:57] couldn't show pictures of Phil Baroni

[01:25:59] cuz they were in my house. The detective

[01:26:01] that claimed all this nonsense. So

[01:26:04] explain to me Is it What do you think

[01:26:06] the odds are? A billion to one? 5

[01:26:08] billion to one that this detective's

[01:26:10] selling drugs with me, robbing with me,

[01:26:12] bookmaking with me, moves next door to

[01:26:14] me in Cherry Hill? All the real estate

[01:26:16] in the world, you came to Cherry Hill to

[01:26:18] sit next to me? What are you doing at my

[01:26:20] house every day? How many pictures you

[01:26:21] want cuz after this week I can give you

[01:26:23] pictures.

[01:26:24] What is Carmine Agnello, right? Never

[01:26:27] shot a gun in his life.

[01:26:29] 16 count indictment disappears in the

[01:26:32] courtroom closes.

[01:26:33] Do we have to be geniuses to understand

[01:26:35] what he did? So you know, I'm not asking

[01:26:38] anybody to believe what I'm saying. Just

[01:26:40] look at the facts. Why are these guys

[01:26:41] talking like this?

[01:26:42] Yeah.

[01:26:43] Who Who do you trust today? Do you Do

[01:26:44] you Are you easy to trust people today

[01:26:46] or after a life like this? I mean,

[01:26:47] you're you're 57 years old. How do you

[01:26:49] trust anybody today? You know, do you

[01:26:51] see people and you say I think you're 56

[01:26:53] to be exact. September 30th is your

[01:26:54] birthday. So who do you trust yourself

[01:26:56] today? Listen, you know

[01:26:58] You've lived a Like you said,

[01:26:59] treacherous life. So who do you trust?

[01:27:00] Very simple. Guys like you, legitimate

[01:27:03] guys that have no agendas, that are

[01:27:05] respectful.

[01:27:06] Purely agenda.

[01:27:06] And

[01:27:07] Got it. friends like my friends, these

[01:27:08] friends of mine that I grew up since I

[01:27:10] was a kid, that are attorneys, court

[01:27:11] stenographers, was 5 years old and my

[01:27:13] friend. My friend Michael Jacobs, I know

[01:27:15] him since he's 5 years old. These guys

[01:27:17] have no agendas but friendship. They're

[01:27:19] not weasels with money. They're not

[01:27:21] calling somebody trying to set me up

[01:27:23] from behind my back. They're not guys

[01:27:25] that are dying to make their name

[01:27:26] themselves off me. And you got guys that

[01:27:29] I'll call up and I'll give you an

[01:27:30] example.

[01:27:31] A guy calls me out of nowhere, fake

[01:27:33] number, and he tells me he's part of a

[01:27:34] crew.

[01:27:36] Albanians. I don't talk against

[01:27:38] Albanians. I try not to kill Albanians.

[01:27:40] I hurt Albanians in my life.

[01:27:42] And he claims he's involved in a crew of

[01:27:44] Albanians that went to jail.

[01:27:46] And he said some choice words for me. So

[01:27:49] I told him "You know why? I says I'm

[01:27:51] going to give you 15 seconds. This is

[01:27:52] what I'm going to do for you." I says,

[01:27:54] "First, if you are who you are, I know

[01:27:56] you're a dog."

[01:27:58] I says, "Because while your friends are

[01:27:59] all in prison, what are you doing home?"

[01:28:02] I says, "Second, if they had no evidence

[01:28:03] against you, when all your friends got

[01:28:05] went to prison because they challenged

[01:28:07] the Gambino family why didn't you go

[01:28:09] kill anybody for them?"

[01:28:10] I says, "So you You're talking like a

[01:28:12] killer, but you're not a killer cuz

[01:28:13] you're not in jail with them. You didn't

[01:28:15] get revenge with them. And any of those

[01:28:16] guys on that case, as much as I

[01:28:19] don't want to disrespect them, they

[01:28:21] didn't kill anybody."

[01:28:23] So when do these guys get off talking or

[01:28:26] even questioning me on my life when they

[01:28:28] have no knowledge of it? So I have no

[01:28:30] business questioning your life or

[01:28:32] disrespecting you in any which way

[01:28:35] unless I was involved with you or unless

[01:28:38] I told you I used the name earlier of

[01:28:39] Vito Guzzo because like him or leave him

[01:28:42] or like or disagree with his crew of

[01:28:44] crimes and they tried to kill me and in

[01:28:46] reports all the guys that cooperated

[01:28:48] said they tried to kill me 10 times.

[01:28:51] So

[01:28:52] they have the right to talk about me

[01:28:53] because we were in throwing back and

[01:28:55] forth trying to kill each other,

[01:28:56] shooting each other, robbing each other.

[01:28:59] So they do have the right. Even if I

[01:29:01] disagree. I personally give them

[01:29:03] respect either way. If I like them or

[01:29:06] disagree, but I respect them. There's a

[01:29:07] difference. Like in sports, like

[01:29:08] anything. But when guys are talking out

[01:29:10] of school that don't even understand

[01:29:12] this life and they get on a chat and

[01:29:14] they want to feel important with

[01:29:15] especially when guys reach out to me and

[01:29:17] talk. They're only talking because this

[01:29:19] is a night this isn't 1985 or 86 or 87

[01:29:23] or 90 or 95. We all know that.

[01:29:25] Okay. So, the biggest mistake anybody

[01:29:28] ever made in life is when they challenge

[01:29:31] and threaten somebody because that's

[01:29:32] usually when you you talk to a serious

[01:29:35] guy that uh

[01:29:37] you can have an issue. Now,

[01:29:39] with me, I don't take them serious cuz

[01:29:40] if they were if there there's enemies

[01:29:42] out there there's a lot of guys out

[01:29:43] there that don't like me. All right? A

[01:29:45] lot of guys out there want to kill me,

[01:29:47] but they're not on the internet talking

[01:29:48] about it. Those are the guys I got to

[01:29:50] worry about, not these idiots that get

[01:29:52] in touch with trying to get attention.

[01:29:54] So, you got a guy like Johnny Burke, I'm

[01:29:56] going to use him. He's got a life

[01:29:57] sentence.

[01:29:58] This is a guy that was around the

[01:30:00] Rugiano family.

[01:30:01] He was a drug addict. Got baseball

[01:30:03] batted by Carmine and John Gotti Jr. Did

[01:30:05] nothing about it.

[01:30:07] This is a guy that let his family sit in

[01:30:08] the street with no money. Didn't buy him

[01:30:10] a house. I had to give him 60,000 to buy

[01:30:12] a house. This is a guy that left Citrus

[01:30:15] County jail twice to go meet with the

[01:30:17] prosecutors. He didn't go to Disney

[01:30:18] World

[01:30:19] and try to make a deal.

[01:30:21] This is a guy whose mother threatened us

[01:30:23] in 2001 if we didn't give him money he

[01:30:25] was going to rat.

[01:30:26] This is a guy that got run over by

[01:30:28] Brendan Gabbett and did nothing about

[01:30:30] it. Sat in the hospital and they came

[01:30:31] running to me, "Can you help me?" This

[01:30:33] is a guy that was with me at the robbery

[01:30:35] in Valley Stream when I robbed Jojo

[01:30:37] Corozzo and Ronnie One-Arm's bookmaker

[01:30:39] that refused to come. He was scared.

[01:30:41] This is a guy whose brother married a

[01:30:42] police officer but calls everybody a

[01:30:44] rat. This is a guy who they did the

[01:30:46] whole house of an FBI agent for free.

[01:30:49] Him and his brother were meeting with

[01:30:50] him, but he calls everybody a rat. This

[01:30:52] is a guy who teaches his kids to talk

[01:30:54] just like him and this is the problem

[01:30:56] why I keep doing these shows for kids

[01:30:58] because don't follow these guys. They're

[01:31:00] full of [ __ ] They ain't about nothing.

[01:31:03] And this is a guy that Matty I won't say

[01:31:05] his last name shot him in the throat

[01:31:06] because he talked too much, Johnny

[01:31:08] Burke. This is a guy in jail that was

[01:31:10] getting shaken down. And in Citrus

[01:31:12] County when he came to the jail I was

[01:31:14] at, I got him in the solitary port and I

[01:31:15] told him I know you're a rat and he

[01:31:16] cried.

[01:31:17] This is the same guy that's talking on

[01:31:19] internets and and cuz they can Google

[01:31:21] they can use the internet now from

[01:31:23] prison. This is a guy that if I told him

[01:31:25] to do anything I wanted he would have

[01:31:27] did it and said please can I do it

[01:31:28] again?

[01:31:29] So, when they're able to talk on

[01:31:31] internets and computers because it's a

[01:31:33] different world, but no one's talking

[01:31:36] about this and his family doesn't know

[01:31:37] all this stuff, but his mother knows

[01:31:38] that's you and I made guys that are

[01:31:40] cooperating, Patsy Andriano, Dave

[01:31:43] D'Apino,

[01:31:44] Peter Zuccaro, and made every one of

[01:31:46] them before all these cases come go pay

[01:31:48] his mother before he snitches and he

[01:31:50] rats on us. And this is a guy in 1994

[01:31:52] got out of trouble for a state case and

[01:31:55] I got out of jail that we were

[01:31:56] questioning how he got out. And I can go

[01:31:58] on, you know, with more stories about

[01:32:00] him. So,

[01:32:02] when these guys talk, the problem is

[01:32:05] their mouth's not you know, they're not

[01:32:07] sewed shut. You can't stop them from

[01:32:08] talking. So, they want to change the

[01:32:10] storyline what happened. This is the

[01:32:12] first guy that rolled out all these

[01:32:13] guys.

[01:32:15] All right? So, when his sister or

[01:32:16] somebody's talking, I don't even blame

[01:32:18] them cuz they're hearing it from him.

[01:32:20] Or when Gotti's kids are talking cuz I

[01:32:23] tell my kids shut your mouth and mind

[01:32:24] your business about my life. You're just

[01:32:25] a regular kids. If any gangster wants to

[01:32:28] be a gangster still with me, I'm very

[01:32:30] accessible. I don't leave New York. So,

[01:32:32] if you're still thinking you're that

[01:32:33] killer, then you're allowed to take a

[01:32:35] shot. Jump. Like we used to stay in the

[01:32:37] street, right? You froggy, take a jump.

[01:32:39] Leap.

[01:32:40] So, what are you talking about kids for?

[01:32:42] I don't want to talk about anybody's

[01:32:43] kids.

[01:32:44] So, you know, I make this very easy for

[01:32:46] anybody that still says they're a

[01:32:48] gangster. It's just what you said. It's

[01:32:49] over. But if they wanted to be a

[01:32:51] gangster, go ahead. You know where

[01:32:52] you're going to end up. You're going to

[01:32:54] end up in the life. If that's you trying

[01:32:55] to get a name off yourself for talking

[01:32:57] about me or somebody else.

[01:32:58] today. Like you said, fear and structure

[01:32:59] was the key and those two things

[01:33:02] when you lose those two things it's

[01:33:03] tough to

[01:33:05] uh

[01:33:06] tough to control. So,

[01:33:08] you know, the whole part you said

[01:33:09] something you said

[01:33:10] I'm trying to change my life, but you

[01:33:12] also don't believe certain things change

[01:33:14] about a person, right? Like you

[01:33:15] commented something about change.

[01:33:17] You've lived this life for a while.

[01:33:21] How do you I know you said something you

[01:33:22] had a hard time going to sleep at night.

[01:33:24] You're still having to see a therapist

[01:33:25] sometimes talking to some people, you

[01:33:27] know, to kind of be able to flush it

[01:33:28] out.

[01:33:29] It's not like you only did it for a year

[01:33:31] or 2 years 3 years. You you lived this

[01:33:32] life for some time. How are you keeping

[01:33:34] up to stay changed?

[01:33:36] Because I was diagnosed with PTSD. I

[01:33:38] don't hide that fact because I try to

[01:33:39] help soldiers and other people that have

[01:33:41] been diagnosed with it. I don't hide the

[01:33:43] fact that I see a therapist. I don't

[01:33:45] hide the fact I'm like an alcoholic. I

[01:33:47] said it over and over again. It's easy

[01:33:48] for me to hurt somebody or kill

[01:33:50] somebody. That's the easy part. For me

[01:33:52] it's easy. I don't say anything

[01:33:53] different. The hard part is not doing it

[01:33:55] when they talk crazy and talk

[01:33:56] stupidness. So, you have to work at

[01:33:59] things, right? So, I get through it day

[01:34:01] each day. So, today I get through today.

[01:34:03] I worry about tomorrow tomorrow, but I'm

[01:34:05] not going to change who I am. So, who I

[01:34:08] am is this. I don't need to call 10

[01:34:09] guys. And the reason why I said when I

[01:34:11] baseball batted this guy and I say who's

[01:34:14] there, I'm by myself. When I shot these

[01:34:16] guys, I'm by myself. I because I want

[01:34:18] people to understand. I don't need 20

[01:34:20] guys to feel strong. And I didn't need

[01:34:22] 100 guys to say I'm cooperating now

[01:34:24] because they betrayed me. I just ran

[01:34:27] through this. The mob betrayed me. I

[01:34:28] didn't betray them. So, don't try to

[01:34:30] switch that on me. I'm not one of these

[01:34:32] dumb guys. I was educated, college

[01:34:33] educated, street educated. College

[01:34:36] educated?

[01:34:36] Yeah, I went to college also. So, I I

[01:34:38] didn't graduate the 4 years, but I went

[01:34:40] to college 3 years.

[01:34:42] So, I'm educated and I understand life,

[01:34:44] right? And I understand if John Gotti

[01:34:46] Jr. ever turned around and and learned

[01:34:48] to be a gentleman, shook my hand and

[01:34:49] said, "Let's forget about the past." Cuz

[01:34:51] there's a ton of guys out there that

[01:34:52] tried to kill me

[01:34:54] that I'm friends with now. The guy

[01:34:56] Stevie Noel that he planned on killing

[01:34:58] me and I shot him, we're friends.

[01:35:00] Because there's a level of respect.

[01:35:01] Again, I'm going to go back to level of

[01:35:03] respect. But when you want to [ __ ]

[01:35:05] the public and yourself and throw your

[01:35:07] garbage on me and you're not man enough

[01:35:09] to say, "This is what I did." I'll never

[01:35:11] be your friend. I'll never respect you.

[01:35:13] So, when you turn around and you be a

[01:35:15] gentleman and say, "Okay, this is what

[01:35:16] happened. I couldn't take the life

[01:35:18] anymore. Yeah, I did cooperate. I'm good

[01:35:20] with it. I don't care. I'm not going to

[01:35:22] hold nothing against you cuz I moved on.

[01:35:23] There's guys that robbed my money, big

[01:35:25] big money. Like that kid in

[01:35:27] Marco, 750,000. I don't go looking to

[01:35:30] kill him. He's not in the streets.

[01:35:31] Do you still miss any of it?

[01:35:33] Anybody that says they don't miss the

[01:35:35] life at my opinion that's been in the

[01:35:36] life that we were is a liar. I think we

[01:35:39] all miss the life, but the only

[01:35:40] difference is we get older, we get

[01:35:42] smarter, we understand there is no

[01:35:44] loyalty. And I think you miss like we

[01:35:47] all say, camaraderie and all that. And I

[01:35:49] joke about it. I said, "Well, join a

[01:35:50] bowling team."

[01:35:51] So, if you miss the camaraderie, but I

[01:35:54] know

[01:35:55] that this life of what I thought it was

[01:35:58] as a young man as a kid does not exist.

[01:36:01] So, you know, my friends that I when I

[01:36:03] am together with my friends that the

[01:36:05] guys I grew up with and we go to the

[01:36:06] beach or we go as families,

[01:36:09] I don't miss the mob when I'm with them

[01:36:10] because again, now you're with real

[01:36:12] friends and you don't got to look over

[01:36:14] your shoulder. And I don't got to worry

[01:36:15] about getting in the car and I don't got

[01:36:17] to worry about anything with them. And

[01:36:19] you know, there's no treachery. There's

[01:36:20] only true friendship and love for each

[01:36:22] other and our families. And this is the

[01:36:24] part that kids really got to understand

[01:36:26] because I know I was there. I know

[01:36:28] that's it's enticing.

[01:36:30] Right? And all this is enticing. But

[01:36:32] just what you said, I'll be a liar to

[01:36:34] tell you, you know, Ralph Natale from

[01:36:36] Philly said I sleep like a baby. And do

[01:36:39] I like Ralph? He's all right guy, but I

[01:36:41] said he's full of [ __ ]

[01:36:43] Because I don't I think if you talk to

[01:36:44] anybody that's been in the armed forces,

[01:36:46] seen action, or anybody from the

[01:36:47] streets, or a police officer that did

[01:36:49] shootings, you're not sleeping. You're a

[01:36:51] liar. It's just not possible. You just

[01:36:54] you know, because subconsciously there's

[01:36:55] guilt and you know, you asked me it

[01:36:57] seems like I don't care earlier. I do

[01:36:59] care. That's why I go to therapy all the

[01:37:00] time. I did get in touch with so you

[01:37:02] just for information you and the public,

[01:37:04] I got in touch with tons of my victims.

[01:37:07] Some would talk to me, some wouldn't. I

[01:37:09] cried with some and some I didn't, but

[01:37:10] this show is not about how I feel. This

[01:37:13] is not about my personality of you know,

[01:37:16] regret. Nobody wants to hear that

[01:37:18] because

[01:37:19] it and at that point it doesn't mean

[01:37:20] anything if they do or don't. It does to

[01:37:23] me of of the families I need to speak to

[01:37:25] and the and the families I need to

[01:37:26] apologize or the families.

[01:37:28] But again,

[01:37:29] and I'll be a liar if I say anything

[01:37:31] different, I'm still the same guy.

[01:37:33] So, that means if somebody busted in

[01:37:35] this room right now and would try to

[01:37:36] hurt us, you're still capable.

[01:37:38] I'm of course I am. I'll be a liar if I

[01:37:39] said I wasn't. What's the story that GQ

[01:37:41] did on you? GQ magazine did a story on

[01:37:43] you. What what was it about?

[01:37:44] GQ talked me about I did a Netflix

[01:37:46] series on And this was just a month ago.

[01:37:47] Just a couple months ago, yeah.

[01:37:49] I did a Netflix thing that's coming out

[01:37:50] and they spoke to me about that. It's

[01:37:52] about the five families. And this is

[01:37:54] also about uh Is it Five Families with

[01:37:57] the author? The the the the same guy

[01:37:59] that wrote the book Five Families? No.

[01:38:01] No, okay. Got it.

[01:38:02] And it's just the the history of the

[01:38:04] mob. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a new

[01:38:05] book out now actually, Gotti's boys with

[01:38:08] Tony DeStefano. Actually, he you know, I

[01:38:10] talked to him and I was skimming through

[01:38:12] the book. I haven't read it all and it's

[01:38:14] pretty good book. So, you know,

[01:38:16] it's a different perspective. He speaks

[01:38:18] about me in some of the book.

[01:38:19] Pretty accurate? Is it some accurate

[01:38:20] stories?

[01:38:21] I read is is some of it's accurate, some

[01:38:23] of it's not. You know, I I called him on

[01:38:25] one of them and it's uh I you know, he

[01:38:27] was talking about Mark Reiter and I was

[01:38:29] you know, somebody said because of my

[01:38:30] age, you know, he doesn't believe I was

[01:38:32] with him doing it. And I says to him,

[01:38:33] "You know what's funny?" I says and I

[01:38:35] says listen, you're never going to get a

[01:38:36] book completely factual. I says Mark

[01:38:39] Reiter, I took him on a run when he went

[01:38:41] to Disney World. I took him.

[01:38:42] Mhm. When he went to

[01:38:44] California, I took him with a woman,

[01:38:46] Rosemary Fennell. And we helped him get

[01:38:48] apartments and he went other places. So,

[01:38:50] when they talk, they don't really have

[01:38:52] the facts. And you know,

[01:38:54] I love that family and I I feel terrible

[01:38:57] for whatever happened to his life and he

[01:38:59] lost his son.

[01:39:00] And his son was a great friend of mine

[01:39:02] and you know, they never found the body.

[01:39:04] And you get guys like my other friend

[01:39:06] and this is the treachery of life, Keith

[01:39:07] Pellegrino. Since he's a kid, he was one

[01:39:10] of my drug partners. I know him. I got

[01:39:12] him guys wanted to hurt him. I saved

[01:39:13] him. This same guy that stayed with us,

[01:39:15] knew about Greg's murder, and never told

[01:39:18] us and hid it from us and was involved

[01:39:19] with one of the guys that was involved

[01:39:20] in his murder. That's the treachery of

[01:39:22] the life, and he's not a tough guy,

[01:39:24] Keith. Actually, he was a punk. You

[01:39:26] know, so if it wasn't for me protecting

[01:39:28] him, he would end up dead. So, how do

[01:39:29] you do that to one of our friends?

[01:39:31] Right? So, this is why I'm saying to

[01:39:34] kids, get away from this life. Go play

[01:39:36] baseball, go to school, go become a

[01:39:38] lawyer, go become a truck driver, do

[01:39:41] something legitimately, do what you're

[01:39:42] doing, journalism, but don't end up on

[01:39:45] the street because there is no true

[01:39:47] friendships there.

[01:39:49] And and and I would say, you know, a lot

[01:39:51] of times people ask me, they say, "Why

[01:39:52] do you Why do you interview people uh in

[01:39:55] this world?" And I said, you know, first

[01:39:57] of all, I the the the the interview

[01:39:59] community, the mobster community came

[01:40:02] purely accidental. Obviously, I grew up

[01:40:03] with a lot of uh uh

[01:40:05] the history of it, studying it, you

[01:40:07] know, the whole Godfathers, you know,

[01:40:09] it's a very If you ask any CEO

[01:40:10] entrepreneur, a lot of people will say

[01:40:12] one of the most powerful movies you can

[01:40:13] watch to learn about business, The

[01:40:14] Godfather. One and two, maybe not three,

[01:40:16] but you can learn a lot about business.

[01:40:18] And it gives different perspectives on

[01:40:21] what you can do with business. But But

[01:40:22] if there's one thing about it is hearing

[01:40:25] all these different stories

[01:40:26] and knowing there's always a power play

[01:40:29] to be done.

[01:40:31] And if you are too naive, like you said

[01:40:33] earlier, and you're not antici-

[01:40:34] anticipating next move and making notes

[01:40:37] of certain people's behavior in some

[01:40:39] strange moments, it could catch up to

[01:40:41] you. That could happen in business

[01:40:42] just like it is in your world. The

[01:40:44] difference is in your world, you could

[01:40:45] get killed. In the business world,

[01:40:47] you're put out of business.

[01:40:48] Well, you know, I talked earlier about

[01:40:49] this kid, Frankie, big guy I hurt,

[01:40:51] right? We'll use him as an example. I

[01:40:52] like the guy. It wasn't personal. The

[01:40:55] Johnny Carneglia and the Johnny Genie at

[01:40:56] the time asked me to hurt him over the

[01:40:58] drug business.

[01:40:59] But, the thing is, I liked him, I

[01:41:01] respected him, he and he was

[01:41:03] legitimately a tough kid. He was a big

[01:41:04] kid, 6'5", whatever.

[01:41:06] His friends,

[01:41:08] tough guys, left him.

[01:41:10] Left him. And they didn't retaliate with

[01:41:12] him afterwards. And they didn't try to

[01:41:14] Now they're talking. These same guys had

[01:41:16] the opportunity, and this is why I'm

[01:41:18] telling kids not even just one end, the

[01:41:20] other end. The guys I even hurt, well,

[01:41:22] guys, you know, I I respect.

[01:41:24] I'm trying to say even the guys like

[01:41:27] that,

[01:41:28] look what's going on on to them. Where's

[01:41:30] their friends when they needed them?

[01:41:32] There was a made guy at the time, Jerry

[01:41:34] Asaro was with him, standing with him,

[01:41:35] and I told him get lost or I'll hurt

[01:41:37] you, too.

[01:41:38] And he walked.

[01:41:39] His father just got a basically a life

[01:41:41] sentence. Vinnie Asaro, they accused him

[01:41:42] of being involved

[01:41:44] with the Latanzas Latanzas stuff and so

[01:41:46] But, his son So, and his other friend,

[01:41:48] Frankie, now is in the neighborhood with

[01:41:50] a big mouth. Where were you when he

[01:41:51] needed you? Where were you coming out 30

[01:41:53] years later when we're all retired?

[01:41:55] Where were you when we were all loading

[01:41:56] guns?

[01:41:57] And I say that, forget about shooting a

[01:41:59] gun. These guys never loaded a gun

[01:42:00] unless it was a water pistol. So,

[01:42:03] I'm trying to say the same thing over

[01:42:04] and over and over again as much as I

[01:42:06] can.

[01:42:07] These kids need to understand stay away

[01:42:10] from this life because they don't They

[01:42:12] think just like I did as a kid, and it's

[01:42:14] very hard to make them understand.

[01:42:16] you know, the whole nine, you know, the

[01:42:19] movie Goodfellas, and you go out and the

[01:42:21] ladies and, you know, the cars and all

[01:42:23] that stuff, which a part of it is true.

[01:42:25] I mean, when I talk to a lot of these

[01:42:26] guys, you guys have partied hard, you

[01:42:28] guys have had a lot of fun.

[01:42:29] the hottest nightclubs around. I had

[01:42:31] everything. But, I'm going to tell you,

[01:42:32] when I sat in that cell alone and it was

[01:42:35] all over,

[01:42:36] every one of my friends in that life

[01:42:38] started ratting on me, all of them. Like

[01:42:40] 50 guys, 50-something, actually. They

[01:42:43] all went to the grand juries on me. You

[01:42:44] can check with Florida Prosecu- Middle

[01:42:46] District of Florida and ask them.

[01:42:48] Because when these conversations

[01:42:49] started, I think it was 54 was the

[01:42:51] number, actually, that ratted on me. All

[01:42:53] these mob made guys ratting on me. When

[01:42:55] all the money was gone, so was all the

[01:42:57] women, so was all everybody else, and so

[01:43:00] was my even my other friends that were

[01:43:02] from the street that weren't killers,

[01:43:03] but they were, you know, playing around

[01:43:05] on the street with drugs and everything.

[01:43:06] There was nobody near me. I was alone in

[01:43:08] a cell.

[01:43:09] And I'm going to tell you like I tell

[01:43:11] everybody, cuz if you're going to be

[01:43:12] fake, you can't talk to kids. And you're

[01:43:15] sitting in that cell and you're crying.

[01:43:17] And I like when somebody said, "Did you

[01:43:18] cry?" Yeah, I'm a man, I'm not a robot.

[01:43:19] Of course I cried. And they said, "Well,

[01:43:21] you did this, you did that." I'm not

[01:43:22] asking anybody to feel bad for me.

[01:43:24] I says, "That's not why I'm saying it.

[01:43:26] I'm saying it to kids so they understand

[01:43:28] that this ain't all about that." And And

[01:43:30] when your kids aren't seeing you, and I

[01:43:32] didn't see some of my I have four kids.

[01:43:33] I didn't see two of them for 10 years.

[01:43:36] Uh you know, so I had disagreements with

[01:43:38] the mom, and the mom didn't I'm friends

[01:43:39] with her now with the reconciliation.

[01:43:41] She's remarried. But,

[01:43:43] this is the reality of the life that the

[01:43:45] kids got to understand. And when my

[01:43:47] uncle died, he was like my father. I

[01:43:49] lived with him in California.

[01:43:52] I didn't see him. I never get to say

[01:43:53] goodbye to him. And you know, you're

[01:43:55] sitting in that cell and you're crying

[01:43:56] your eyes out. And there's times when

[01:43:57] you're crying. So, no one is saying to

[01:43:59] me, "Well, poor you." Well, [ __ ] you,

[01:44:01] you know, cuz I know people out there.

[01:44:02] And I'm not asking anybody to say [ __ ]

[01:44:04] poor me. I'm not asking anybody. This is

[01:44:06] my life. I stood on my two feet, and I

[01:44:08] got to accept everything. But, the

[01:44:10] reality of a kid that wants to go on the

[01:44:11] street is I need to tell you,

[01:44:14] you're going to cry. And if you say

[01:44:15] you're not, I know tough guys, killers.

[01:44:18] I mean, killers that ain't never getting

[01:44:20] out of jail. And I got a ton of friends

[01:44:21] that are on the streets, still in jail,

[01:44:23] and and off the street. So, people will

[01:44:25] say, "Well, I seen him with this guy." I

[01:44:26] don't lie and say I don't know them

[01:44:28] anymore. A lot of them are my friends

[01:44:29] still. I just ain't involved with them

[01:44:31] anymore. I'll have lunch with them

[01:44:33] around the world. I'm talking about

[01:44:34] gangsters in and out of jails. I got a

[01:44:36] ton of friends in jails. I got fan guys

[01:44:38] that that write me on a constant basis.

[01:44:40] I says, "I shouldn't use the word fan."

[01:44:42] I says, "Cuz I respect them for writing

[01:44:43] me from jail, and they tell me we wish

[01:44:45] we could be man enough to do what you're

[01:44:47] doing." And I said, "Took me a long time

[01:44:49] to be a man like this. It's easy doing

[01:44:51] the other stuff." I'll say it over

[01:44:52] again, easy to shoot and kill. This is

[01:44:54] the hard part,

[01:44:56] to admit all this stuff and try to get

[01:44:57] convince some kids if you could save one

[01:44:59] or two.

[01:45:00] This is a terrible time to want to live

[01:45:01] that life because you got 300 million

[01:45:04] cameras everywhere.

[01:45:06] You got 300 million cameras. Everybody's

[01:45:08] doing live. Everything is recorded.

[01:45:10] Everybody's walking over the recorder.

[01:45:12] It's a terrible time to do it. But,

[01:45:13] watch the news, right? And I'm not even

[01:45:15] talking about gangsters, just criminals.

[01:45:17] Doing dumb [ __ ] and they know there's a

[01:45:18] camera there, and they still do it. And

[01:45:20] they're almost saying cheese on the

[01:45:21] camera, and they're walking down the

[01:45:22] I'm saying to you. The Obviously,

[01:45:24] there's a lot of fools, but one of the

[01:45:25] great equalizers, I believe, of getting

[01:45:29] people to not want to go in that

[01:45:31] direction of a life is social media. I

[01:45:33] think that's That's done. Social media

[01:45:34] and smartphones have changed the game.

[01:45:35] John, what book are you currently

[01:45:38] working on that we can share with our

[01:45:39] audience? If there was one book we could

[01:45:41] share, which one would it be?

[01:45:42] Well, it's This is Susan Pike with me.

[01:45:44] It's uh called Darkest Hour. There's

[01:45:47] going to be a series, Darkest Hour two

[01:45:49] and three. Okay. Uh this was a setup

[01:45:51] book after Gotti's Rules cuz I did

[01:45:53] Gotti's Rules with George Anastasia. And

[01:45:55] the setup book, we don't really talk

[01:45:57] about my childhood. This is a setup book

[01:45:58] for two and three. In two and three, I'm

[01:46:00] going to really get into all these

[01:46:02] things I'm talking about, shootings. I'm

[01:46:03] going to get into more. But, this book,

[01:46:06] different than the first, Gotti's Rules,

[01:46:08] is I'm going to list just like I did

[01:46:10] names, like I just did now.

[01:46:12] And I'm going to make sure that there's

[01:46:14] going to be people that were there,

[01:46:15] witnesses. So, somebody wants to contact

[01:46:17] and see the truthfulness, I guess they

[01:46:18] could contact them. And then I'm going

[01:46:20] to do a scorecard of every gangster I

[01:46:22] mention in that book.

[01:46:23] How many armed robberies they did, how

[01:46:25] many actual shootings they did

[01:46:26] themselves, what are they about.

[01:46:27] You're going to piss off a lot of people

[01:46:29] if they're alive. You're going to piss

[01:46:30] off a lot of those. Well, It's going to

[01:46:32] be interesting for them to come back and

[01:46:33] say that's not true. I did this many, I

[01:46:35] had this many numbers.

[01:46:36] If I say Carmine Agnello, I'm going to

[01:46:38] use him because he had a big mouth,

[01:46:39] whatever he is. Right? The

[01:46:41] brother-in-law. Yeah. And he ran to

[01:46:42] Cleveland, and his courtroom got shut

[01:46:44] down in a 16-count indictment that does

[01:46:46] not go away, and I guess somebody could

[01:46:47] talk to

[01:46:48] uh Giuliani or something.

[01:46:51] Yeah.

[01:46:51] Yeah.

[01:46:52] Never used a gun in his life. So, was he

[01:46:54] going to all of a sudden get balls up

[01:46:56] and get a gun and come looking for me?

[01:46:58] So,

[01:46:58] you know, to me,

[01:47:00] I'm just going to bring out and let

[01:47:01] these guys And if you want to do the

[01:47:03] right thing, maybe you should talk to

[01:47:04] your kids and tell them the same thing

[01:47:06] and other kids, let's not follow this

[01:47:08] life because

[01:47:10] I got nothing against any of the kids. I

[01:47:12] You know, I hope the kids don't ever

[01:47:13] follow us. And I hope my kids do the

[01:47:15] same. And I've had problems with one of

[01:47:18] my sons. So, you know, the the the

[01:47:19] reality is,

[01:47:21] break the cycle. This is a terrible time

[01:47:23] to want to go that life. Terrible time

[01:47:26] to want to go that route. Uh John, uh

[01:47:29] again, thank you for flying out to

[01:47:30] Dallas to do this sit-down. We're going

[01:47:32] to put the links to both of the books as

[01:47:33] well as the GQ article. And if you want

[01:47:36] to find out more about his books or the

[01:47:37] article, uh go to the link below. We're

[01:47:40] going to put every single one of the

[01:47:41] links on how to find out more about John

[01:47:43] A. Alite's book, uh both The Gotti Rules

[01:47:46] as well as The Darkest Hour. Once again,

[01:47:49] thanks for coming out.

[01:47:49] Thank you, too, Pat. Appreciate you.