# Institutional Crypto is Here: J.P. Morgan’s MONY Fund Breakdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ilt1jL6MY Translation: zh-TW [00:00] Uh, we know that JP Morgan launched a JPM coin and you also just announced a can the network integration. 嗯，我們知道摩根大通推出了 JPM 幣，而你們也剛剛宣布了網路整合。 [00:04] How do you look at deposit tokens versus stable coins? 你如何看待存款代幣與穩定幣？ [00:09] In some ways, they could be competitive to stable coins. 在某些方面，它們可能與穩定幣競爭。 [00:10] In some ways, we think they could actually be complimentary. 在某些方面，我們認為它們實際上可以互補。 [00:13] When we think about this superpower of blockchain technology, it's really this ability to have multiple types of assets and cash sitting side by side. 當我們想到區塊鏈技術的這個超級能力時，它實際上是能夠讓多種類型的資產和現金並存的能力。 [00:22] What's actually stopping a wealth advisor today from offering tokenized P or hedge fund access through a private bank? 今天是什麼阻止了財富顧問透過私人銀行提供代幣化的 P 或對沖基金的管道？ [00:30] Is it technology? 是技術嗎？ [00:33] The technology I don't think is the bottleneck. 我認為技術不是瓶頸。 [00:35] I think, you know, we need to scale it up, expand it out to other types of alts as well. 我認為，我們需要擴大規模，並將其擴展到其他類型的另類投資。 [00:40] If we're sitting here in 5 years and tokenization has fully matured, what does the wealth management industry look like that doesn't exist today? 如果我們五年後在這裡，並且代幣化已經完全成熟，那麼財富管理行業將會是什麼樣子，而這在今天並不存在？ [00:48] Yeah, I think the biggest thing that doesn't exist today is Welcome to another episode of 51 Insights today with Dennis Crystalo. 是的，我認為今天不存在的最大事情是，歡迎收看今天的 51 Insights 節目，與 Dennis Crystalo 一起。 [01:00] Dennis, welcome to the show. 丹尼斯，歡迎來到節目。 [01:01] Thanks so much for having me, Mark. 謝謝你邀請我，馬克。 [01:03] Uh, big fan of your writing. 呃，我是你寫作的忠實粉絲。 [01:04] So excited to have this conversation. 非常興奮能有這次對話。 [01:05] Yeah, likewise, Dennis. 是的，彼此彼此，丹尼斯。 [01:07] I'm very excited to have you here. 我非常興奮你能來這裡。 [01:10] You are leading wealth management for Kexis digital assets at JP Morgan. 你在摩根大通領導 Kexis 的數位資產財富管理業務。 [01:14] You design and blockchain tokenization solutions for the private bank and its clients. 你為私人銀行及其客戶設計了區塊鏈代幣化解決方案。 [01:20] you did a lot in what JP Morgan Kexis their digital asset solution and I'm super excited to unpack this today. 你在摩根大通 Kexis 的數位資產解決方案方面做了很多工作，我今天非常興奮能深入探討。 [01:29] You also had a lot of recent announcements that are very exciting that we're going to unpack today. 你也有很多令人興奮的最新公告，我們今天將深入探討。 [01:32] Sounds good. Let's do it. 聽起來不錯。我們開始吧。 [01:33] So Dennis, first question. 那麼丹尼斯，第一個問題。 [01:37] Many banks talk about digital assets. 許多銀行談論數位資產。 [01:39] Few build at the depth like JP Morgan has been in the game since years and Kexis now has processed over 1 trillion in total. 很少有像摩根大通這樣深入投入的，他們已經在這個領域多年，而 Kexis 現在總共處理了超過 1 兆的資產。 [01:48] What gave the firm the confidence to commit capital talent and also stake their reputation this early while other players waited on the sidelines? 是什麼讓公司有信心在這個早期階段投入資本、人才，並承擔聲譽風險，而其他參與者卻在觀望？ [01:57] Yeah, sure. 是的，當然。 [02:00] So, uh, so we're we just surpassed three trillion in total 所以，呃，我們剛剛超過了三兆的總額 [02:01] tokenized notional value. 代幣化的名義價值。 [02:03] So, we're you know bit beyond the 1 trillion mark at this point. 所以，我們你知道已經超過了萬億大關。 [02:07] But uh to your question, I mean I think the approach and the investment in the space uh has really been enabled by just being incredibly relentless on trying to avoid complacency. 但是，關於你的問題，我的意思是，我認為這種方法和在這個領域的投資，確實是因為我們在努力避免自滿方面取得了令人難以置信的堅持。 [02:18] If you look at Jaime's recent CEO and and chairman letter, literally one of the first few sentences in there is about the emerging threat from fintex and tokenization uh related different initiatives in in the space. 如果你看 Jaime 最近的 CEO 和董事長信函，字面上來說，其中最先的幾句話之一就是關於來自金融科技和代幣化相關的、在這個領域的不同舉措所帶來的潛在威脅。 [02:29] So we definitely want to understand the different threats and the opportunities for all the different JP Morgan lines of business. 所以我們絕對想了解所有不同摩根大通業務線面臨的各種威脅和機會。 [02:34] In order to do that, you know, you could buy teams, you could partner with consultants, or you can try to build up those capabilities internally. 為了做到這一點，你知道，你可以收購團隊，你可以與顧問合作，或者你可以嘗試在內部建立這些能力。 [02:41] And we we chose the latter. 而我們選擇了後者。 [02:43] And as you mentioned, we were pretty early to the game. 正如你所說，我們在這個遊戲中算是相當早的。 [02:45] We started uh predecessor groups to Kaxis back in 2014 where there was a small group in the bank and the idea was, you know, do we need to defend against this technology? 我們在 2014 年開始了 Kaxis 的前身團隊，當時銀行裡有一個小團隊，想法是，你知道，我們是否需要防禦這項技術？ [02:54] Do we need to try to utilize this within our businesses? 我們是否需要嘗試在我們的業務中使用它？ [02:57] And so this group went away and they came back and they said resoundingly yes, we should be looking 所以這個團隊離開了，他們回來了，他們響亮地回答說，是的，我們應該關注 [03:03] into this technology because it's incredibly powerful for moving assets, for moving value, and for moving information. 進入這項技術，因為它在轉移資產、轉移價值和轉移資訊方面具有無比強大的能力。 [03:11] And when we think about this superpower of blockchain technology, it's really this ability to have multiple types of assets and cash sitting side by side. 當我們想到區塊鏈技術的這種超級能力時，它實際上是能夠讓多種類型的資產和現金並存的能力。 [03:20] And when we think about our businesses within JP Morgan, really all of them are are doing different variations of moving assets, value, and information. 當我們想到我們在摩根大通內的業務時，實際上它們都在進行轉移資產、價值和資訊的不同變體。 [03:27] So, we do think this could be incredibly valuable uh today, tomorrow, and and especially as this industry grows. 所以，我們確實認為這在今天、明天，尤其隨著這個行業的發展，將會具有無比的價值。 [03:33] Uh we think there's a lot of different use cases that that we could put this uh these tools to work within. 我們認為有很多不同的用例可以讓我們將這些工具投入使用。 [03:39] And so, you know, I think over time the focus for our group has evolved from being kind of this internal consultant for all things blockchain, crypto, digital assets within JP Morgan. 所以，你知道，我認為隨著時間的推移，我們團隊的重點已經從成為摩根大通內部關於區塊鏈、加密貨幣、數位資產的內部顧問轉變而來。 [03:47] And today we're more of a commercial business unit where we have some expertise and we have some skills and services and solutions that we're out there talking with, you know, other asset managers, other financial intermediaries to try to help bring them on chain whether that chain is public. 而今天我們更像是一個商業業務部門，我們擁有專業知識、技能、服務和解決方案，我們正在與其他資產管理公司、其他金融中介機構進行交流，試圖幫助他們上鏈，無論該鏈是公開的。 [04:00] Uh you've alluded to some of the recent 你已經提到了一些最近的 [04:03] announcements or if that's more of the private chain solution where we've built historically. 公告，或者說這是我們歷史上建立的私有鏈解決方案的更多內容。 [04:07] and you also co-authored the Bane paper that size the tokenization opportunity at $400 trillion US. 您還共同撰寫了 Bane 論文，該論文估計代幣化機會為 400 兆美元。 [04:13] So, and as you said, you've been building inside of JP Morgan since the Onyx days. 所以，正如您所說，自 Onyx 時代以來，您一直在摩根大通內部進行構建。 [04:20] That's how it was called before Kexis. 這是在 Kexis 之前它的稱呼。 [04:22] What was the moment when you realize that this is not some kind of internal, you know, science project play like this is not just Bitcoin. 是什麼時候讓您意識到這不是某種內部，你知道的，科學項目遊戲，這不只是比特幣。 [04:30] This is much bigger and this could potentially be transformational for banking and the financial industry. 這要大得多，並且可能對銀行和金融業產生變革性影響。 [04:37] Yeah, sure. 是的，當然。 [04:37] So I I've been on the team for about three and a half years and I spent prior to that about 10 years building portfolios of hedge funds, private credit funds, co-investments, things like that. 所以我在這個團隊工作了大約三年半，在此之前我花了大约十年時間建立對沖基金、私人信貸基金、共同投資等投資組合。 [04:45] I'm saying that because one like have the expertise and have felt the pain points associated with that that specific use case of delivering alts at scale but you know the team's been around for much longer and even before I joined they were you know very much at scale as far as delivering some of the core applications. 我這樣說是因為我擁有專業知識，並且感受到了在規模化交付另類資產的特定用例相關的痛點，但你知道，這個團隊已經存在了很長時間，甚至在我加入之前，他們在交付一些核心應用方面已經達到了很大的規模。 [05:04] uh to our client base and so our flagship one is called digital financing 呃，對我們的客戶群，所以我們的旗艦產品叫做數位金融 [05:08] or you know it's known as this intraday repo application and that's been at scale for for quite a time 或者你知道，它被稱為日內回購應用程式，而且這個應用程式已經規模化運行相當長一段時間了 [05:14] and what we're doing there is We're enabling wholesale intraday lending activity with the borrowing leg of the transaction and the cash leg of it also happening on on the same set of infrastructure. 我們在那裡所做的是，我們正在實現批發日內借貸活動，交易的借款部分和現金部分也發生在相同的基礎設施上。 [05:25] And really what that does is it allows us to give hyper precise intraday lending. 而這實際上使我們能夠提供超精確的日內借貸。 [05:30] And we're able to unwind these repos effectively instantly. 而且我們能夠有效地即時解除這些回購。 [05:33] And the benefit there is that you know clients they borrow for an hour they only pay an hour's worth of interest and there's no overnight capital charge because it's an intraday loan. 這樣的好處是，你知道客戶借款一小時，他們只支付一小時的利息，而且沒有隔夜資本費用，因為這是日內貸款。 [05:40] And so yeah, this idea has been at scale for for a while. 所以是的，這個想法已經規模化運行一段時間了。 [05:45] And you know, I think the approach historically has been very use case specific like the one I just mentioned. 而且你知道，我認為歷史上的方法一直是針對特定用例的，就像我剛剛提到的那一個。 [05:50] I think now we're at a at a place now where we're trying to think much bigger picture, especially as we're now able to deploy assets on public blockchains. 我認為現在我們正處於一個試圖思考更大格局的階段，特別是現在我們能夠在公共區塊鏈上部署資產。 [05:58] What is this overall, you know, industry and and idea start to look like when you have all those assets or many more 總體而言，你知道，當你擁有所有這些資產或更多資產時，這個行業和這個想法開始看起來像什麼 [06:04] assets sitting side by side with with each other? 資產並排放在一起？ [06:09] You know, for for us, every time we we do something meaningful, especially with the tokenized alternative investment platform that you mentioned, the outreach internally, externally from folks all around is pretty overwhelming in the sense that people want to understand it. 你知道，對我們來說，每次我們做有意義的事情，特別是關於你提到的代幣化另類投資平台，來自四面八方的內部和外部的聯繫是相當驚人的，因為人們想了解它。 [06:21] People think it's really cool. 人們認為這真的很酷。 [06:22] And I think it's also just a reflection that like the pain points that we're targeting really resonate with people and, you know, they're particularly acute in in specific industries. 而且我認為這也反映了我們所針對的痛點確實能引起人們的共鳴，而且，你知道，這些痛點在特定行業中尤其嚴重。 [06:30] If we take a step back, can you paint us that journey from where you started in the early days with Onyx and now what you call Kexis? 如果我們退一步看，你能為我們描繪一下你從早期創立 Onyx 到現在你稱之為 Kexis 的這段旅程嗎？ [06:41] How did that project looked at the very beginning? 這個項目在最初的時候是什麼樣子的？ [06:43] And as you just described, how did that evolve now into something much more broader and powerful? 正如你剛才描述的，它現在是如何發展成一個更廣泛、更有力的東西的？ [06:50] Yeah, so uh the team did do we did do a rebrand last November to change the name from Onyx to Kexus. 是的，所以嗯，團隊確實我們去年十一月進行了品牌重塑，將名稱從 Onyx 改為 Kexus。 [06:55] the uh main idea is that you know when we came up with the onyx name it was sounded cool it sounded mysterious people didn't really know what was going on and we were doing 嗯，主要想法是，你知道，當我們想到 Onyx 這個名字時，它聽起來很酷，聽起來很神秘，人們不知道到底發生了什麼，而我們正在做 [07:05] these really cutting edge interesting proof of concepts and and works of uh um you know using blockchain and tokenization. 這些真正尖端的有趣概念驗證和作品，你知道，使用區塊鏈和代幣化。 [07:12] uh over time like I mentioned this evolution towards being more of a commercial business unit we wanted to actually put something behind it that you know mean something. 呃，隨著時間的推移，就像我提到的，這種演變是朝著一個更商業化的業務單元發展，我們希望真正為它提供一些有意義的東西。 [07:21] and so you know just recently we and probably by the time this comes out we'll launch a new kind of vision for the group which is around this physics of finance. 所以，你知道，就在最近，我們，可能到時候就會發布一個新的願景，那就是關於金融物理學。 [07:27] And so for us, this Kexus name is about kinetic energy and meeting clients uh all around the world with more interesting ways to utilize their assets. 所以對我們來說，這個 Kexus 的名字代表著動能，以及以更有趣的方式與世界各地的客戶見面來利用他們的資產。 [07:40] So it's it's the same group. It's the same team. It was a marketing rebrand that we did, but it was really meant to kind of refocus the group on the mission right now, which is to uh tokenize the world's assets and to do so in a way that we're, you know, building commercial relationships. 所以，這是同一個團體。這是同一個團隊。這是我們做的一次市場品牌重塑，但它實際上是為了讓團隊重新聚焦於目前的使命，那就是，呃，代幣化世界的資產，並以一種，你知道，建立商業關係的方式來做到這一點。 [07:54] One of the reasons I love to have you here today, Dennis, is that at least in the crypto industry, banks are often painted as adversaries and they want to beat crypto and things like that. 我喜歡你今天在這裡的原因之一是，丹尼斯，至少在加密貨幣行業，銀行經常被描繪成對手，他們想擊敗加密貨幣等等。 [08:07] Talk to people like you, you realize how much thought is going into what you guys are actually building inside. 與像您這樣的人交談，您會意識到你們實際在內部構建的東西付出了多少心血。 [08:12] It's great to have you here today to talk about this. 很高興今天能邀請到您來談論這個話題。 [08:16] When you have these internal conversations with your colleague, how do you look at blockchain and crypto as a technology? 當您與同事進行這些內部對話時，您如何看待區塊鏈和加密貨幣作為一項技術？ [08:24] Is crypto still a thing or you mainly focused on blockchain as a technology to kind of improve the plumbing of financial services? 加密貨幣仍然是一個熱門話題，還是您主要關注區塊鏈作為一種技術來改善金融服務的基礎設施？ [08:35] I think we generally, at least the way I think about it, we separate the world into kind of the money crypto and the tech crypto piece. 我認為我們通常，至少以我思考的方式，將世界分為貨幣加密貨幣和技術加密貨幣兩部分。 [08:39] And there's a very big gray area in between. 而兩者之間存在一個非常大的灰色地帶。 [08:44] Um, we definitely sit like, you know, probably more on the the right side of that spectrum where we're looking more at the tech crypto aspect of things where we're trying to use this technology, bring real world assets on chain and create new kinds of utilities and new ways to distribute these assets and interact with them. 嗯，我們肯定更傾向於，你知道，可能更偏向於光譜的右側，我們更多地關注技術加密貨幣方面，我們試圖利用這項技術，將現實世界的資產鏈上化，並創造新的實用工具和新的分發和互動方式。 [08:59] And so for us, the focus is primarily on the technology side of this. 因此，對我們來說，重點主要在這方面。 [09:03] That said, now that we're doing things on public blockchain, you start 話雖如此，現在我們正在公共區塊鏈上進行操作，您開始 [09:08] to get into more of that money crypto 進入更多關於貨幣加密的領域 [09:10] or, you know, pure cryptocurrency side 或者，你知道，純粹的加密貨幣方面 [09:12] where, you know, now we need to be mindful of crypto wallets. 在那裡，你知道，現在我們需要注意加密貨幣錢包。 [09:14] We need to be mindful of, you know, paying gas to facilitate transactions on behalf of of our clients who are asset managers. 我們需要注意，你知道，支付燃氣費以代表我們的客戶，他們是資產管理人，來促進交易。 [09:21] That gray area that I mentioned definitely comes into play. 我提到的那個灰色地帶肯定會發揮作用。 [09:23] But the Kexus group, we're focused on more the traditional assets than the cryptocurrency side. 但 Kexus 集團，我們更關注傳統資產而非加密貨幣方面。 [09:29] For sure. 當然。 [09:31] You said you run Kexis processes about $5 billion daily. 您說您每天處理約 50 億美元的 Kexis 流程。 [09:33] Kexis runs on a private blockchain. Kexis 在私有區塊鏈上運行。 [09:37] Correct. 正確。 [09:39] That's right. 沒錯。 [09:41] Yeah. So most of our applications are on what we call Kexus digital assets and that is this private permission network. 是的。所以我們的大部分應用程序都在我們稱之為 Kexus 數字資產的平台上，這是一個私有的授權網絡。 [09:46] It's a fork of Ethereum that we stood up back in in 2014. 它是我們在 2014 年建立的以太坊的一個分支。 [09:49] Now uh and we alluded to this a couple times. 現在，呃，我們已經幾次提到這個了。 [09:52] I'm sure we'll dive in, but we've recently deployed a few different assets onto public blockchain networks as well. 我相信我們會深入探討，但我們最近也將一些不同的資產部署到了公共區塊鏈網絡上。 [09:56] And the way we got there and this is really the realization of a vision that we had a long time ago is you know we're building using the same tooling in a lot of cases you know 我們到達那裡的方式，這確實是我們很久以前的願景的實現，你知道，在很多情況下我們都使用相同的工具來構建，你知道 [10:08] we're building a solidity we're using similar type tech stacks and so the journey from private permissioned ethereum based chain to you know a public permissionless chain uh wasn't nominal by any sense but it was definitely eased by the fact that we've built and tested a lot of this stuff that we've done already. 我們正在構建一個 Solidity，我們正在使用類似的技術堆棧，因此從私有許可的以太坊鏈到公共無許可鏈的旅程，並沒有什麼名義上的，但確實因為我們已經構建和測試了許多我們已經完成的事情，所以變得容易了。 [10:24] And how do you look at that differentiation between permissionless and permission? 那麼，您如何看待無許可和許可之間的區別呢？ [10:29] Do you think that's going to be a setup where both worlds will collif or do you think it's going to eventually end up in a more like permissionless environment and lots of different blockchains, open blockchains connected with each other? 您認為這將是一個兩個世界都會碰撞的設置，還是您認為最終會演變成一個更像無許可的環境，以及許多不同的區塊鏈，相互連接的開放區塊鏈？ [10:43] There is space for both permission chains and permissionless chains. 許可鏈和無許可鏈都有空間。 [10:46] And and for us, we really think of it as uh pretty use case dependent. 對我們來說，我們真的認為這很大程度上取決於用例。 [10:50] So at this point, you know, we're agnostic. 所以現在，我們是中立的。 [10:53] You know, we could help clients, we could help asset issuers bring their assets onto public chain or onto the private chain network. 我們可以幫助客戶，我們可以幫助資產發行方將他們的資產帶到公共鏈或私有鏈網絡上。 [10:59] And for us, it becomes really more of a question of what do you what are you trying to do? 對我們來說，這更多地變成了一個問題，您想做什麼？ [11:02] Like everybody sees and hears the noise around tokenization. 就像每個人都看到和聽到圍繞代幣化的噪音一樣。 [11:04] It's going to change the world and all these different 它將改變世界以及所有這些不同的 [11:09] things and we agree, but not as many people truly appreciate why and you know why are they taking these assets and putting them on chain. 事情，我們也同意，但沒有多少人真正欣賞為什麼，你知道，為什麼他們要把這些資產放到鏈上。 [11:17] So for us the way we look at it is there are very uh distribution focused use cases where we're taking an asset and we're putting it on a public blockchain primarily today as a means of distributing that asset to this new and very fast growing user base. 所以對我們來說，我們看待它的方式是，有非常多以分發為重點的用例，我們將資產放到公共區塊鏈上，主要是為了將該資產分發給這個新興且快速增長的用戶群。 [11:31] Right? 對吧？ [11:31] So the cryptonatives, the stable coin holders, the stable coin issuers, these pools of capital that live on chain and that is a fine use case and that's working well. 所以加密貨幣原生者、穩定幣持有者、穩定幣發行者，這些鏈上的資金池，這是一個很好的用例，而且效果很好。 [11:40] On the other end of the spectrum, we have clients that want to say bring their assets on chain because it's incredibly painful to deal with these assets. 在光譜的另一端，我們有客戶希望將他們的資產放到鏈上，因為處理這些資產非常痛苦。 [11:45] It's very inefficient like in the case of of alternative investments. 這非常沒有效率，就像另類投資的情況一樣。 [11:49] You know, it's very labor intensive. 你知道，這非常耗費人力。 [11:51] It's very manual. 這非常手動。 [11:53] Cash and assets are uh completely divorced as it relates to capital calls and distributions. 現金和資產在與資本募集和分配相關方面，完全脫節。 [11:57] And so for those use cases, I think it makes more sense to use the private permission network because we don't have to require our clients to have crypto wallets. 所以對於那些用例，我認為使用私有許可網絡更有意義，因為我們不必要求我們的客戶擁有加密貨幣錢包。 [12:06] We don't have to do additional sanction screening 我們不必進行額外的制裁篩查 [12:09] and transaction monitoring because all of that happens today behind the same infrastructure that JP Morgan payments uses. 以及交易監控，因為這一切都發生在今天 JP Morgan 支付所使用的相同基礎設施的後台。 [12:15] And so it's an easier way to have that streamlined uh use case as opposed to you try to do that same thing on crypto rails on on public blockchains. 因此，這是一種更簡單的方式來實現 ذلك簡化的應用案例，而不是您嘗試在加密貨幣軌道上在公共區塊鏈上做同樣的事情。 [12:24] Now every user of it needs to get very smart on wallets very quickly and they're not necessarily there yet. 現在，它的每個用戶都需要很快地掌握錢包知識，而他們還不一定在那裡。 [12:29] Dennis, you just launched Kexis Fund Flow together with Sitco. Dennis，您剛剛與 Sitco 一起推出了 Kexis Fund Flow。 [12:32] Can you unpack a little bit for us what's that all about and how does this work? 您能為我們詳細解釋一下這是什麼以及它是如何運作的嗎？ [12:38] Sure. So, Kexus Fund Flow is an application that that we built. 當然。所以，Kexus Fund Flow 是我們構建的一個應用程式。 [12:40] Uh, and the idea is is getting at that inefficiency in delivering alternative investment use case. 嗯，這個想法是解決在提供另類投資應用案例中的效率低下問題。 [12:46] And so, today for anybody that's been around the alts industry, especially dealing with high netw worth individuals, you'll know it's quite painful. 所以，今天對於任何在另類行業中待過的人，特別是與高淨值人士打交道的人，您都會知道這非常痛苦。 [12:54] And it's really painful because there's no DTCC in the middle. 而且這真的很痛苦，因為中間沒有 DTCC。 [12:58] There's no standards around how data is shared, how capital calls are processed. 在數據如何共享、資金催缴如何處理方面沒有標準。 [13:02] And so what you end up with is you the three major participants in delivering alternatives. 所以，您最終會得到提供另類投資的三個主要參與者。 [13:06] You have your fund manager who builds the product and manages the 您有您的基金經理，他構建產品並管理 [13:11] money. 金錢。 [13:13] You have your fund administrator transfer agent usually the same in alts. 您有您的基金管理人、託管機構，在另類投資中通常是相同的。 [13:15] where they're the ones holding the pen on who actually uh owns this investment. 他們是掌握著誰實際擁有這項投資的關鍵人物。 [13:19] and processing capital calls and things like that on behalf of the fund manager. 並代表基金經理處理資本催繳等事宜。 [13:23] And then the third party is the distributor which can be a wealth manager, RAA or a private bank. 然後第三方是分銷商，可以是財富管理公司、註冊投資顧問或私人銀行。 [13:28] And so where you landed in this in this space is that all three parties have different systems. 因此，您在這個領域的處境是，這三方都有不同的系統。 [13:32] They have different definitions, different data schema, and they don't talk to each other very well. 他們有不同的定義、不同的數據結構，而且他們之間的溝通非常不順暢。 [13:38] And so the first thing that we wanted to do was to enable better data management amongst these parties. 因此，我們想做的第一件事是實現這些方之間更好的數據管理。 [13:43] And the way we did that is instead of going to them and saying, hey, here's a new template to use. 我們這樣做的方式是，而不是去找他們說，嘿，這是一個新的模板供您使用。 [13:47] Just fill this out and everything works. 填寫此表格即可一切正常。 [13:50] Uh that would be the easy thing for us, but we actually didn't do it that way. 呃，對我們來說那會是件容易的事，但我們實際上並沒有這樣做。 [13:51] What we did is we said, how do you consume data? 我們所做的是，我們問，您如何消耗數據？ [13:53] How do you output data? 您如何輸出數據？ [13:55] And we built a discrepancy surfacing tool that allows them to see where there are issues in that data. 我們建立了一個差異浮現工具，讓他們可以看到數據中存在問題的地方。 [14:02] And you know, honestly, you don't need a blockchain for that. 說實話，您不需要區塊鏈來做到這一點。 [14:05] It's helpful, but you don't need a blockchain for that. 它有幫助，但您不需要區塊鏈來做到這一點。 [14:06] You just need better data management. 您只需要更好的數據管理。 [14:08] Um, the more interesting thing though, and why we did that is because when we 嗯，更有趣的是，我們這樣做的原因是因為當我們 [14:13] start talking about capital calls, that's where things get really challenging. 開始談論資本募集，這就是事情變得真正具有挑戰性的地方。 [14:16] And so for a capital call on a private equity or a private credit fund, you know, the fund manager may say, "I need $10 million from these thousand investors, right?" 因此，對於私募股權或私人信貸基金的資本募集，你知道，基金經理可能會說，「我需要從這數千名投資者那裡獲得 1000 萬美元，對吧？」 [14:25] And so that thousand investors that gets bundled up by the fund administrator. 因此，那數千名投資者由基金管理人進行捆綁。 [14:29] They send over a file, individual statements to the the fund distributor or the wealth manager. 他們會發送一個文件，個別的報表給基金分銷商或財富經理。 [14:33] And the wealth manager does their best. 而財富經理會盡力而為。 [14:35] They pull together the $10 million, get on the phone, how do you want to fund this, all that stuff. 他們匯集 1000 萬美元，打電話，你希望如何為此注資，所有這些事情。 [14:40] And what happens is the 10 million that shows up is really like 9.5 million. 而發生的情況是，出現的 1000 萬美元實際上只有 950 萬美元。 [14:45] and nobody really has a great sense of why that's the case. 而且沒有人真正清楚為什麼會這樣。 [14:47] And so there's a lot of reconciliation that happens after the fact and nobody knows like who actually owns this thing. 因此，事後會進行大量的對帳，而且沒有人知道誰真正擁有這項資產。 [14:52] And so what we did is, you know, like I mentioned, we use that data management piece. 所以我們所做的，你知道，就像我提到的，我們使用了數據管理這一塊。 [14:56] And now when the capital call comes through, we consume that and we kick off a message that starts a transaction flow that begins in the end investor's brokerage account. 現在，當資本募集請求到來時，我們將其消耗掉，然後啟動一條消息，該消息啟動了一個交易流程，該流程始於最終投資者的經紀賬戶。 [15:08] So in that investor's brokerage account the money moves to this platform uh becomes tokenized effectively and that tokenized 因此，在那位投資者的經紀賬戶中，資金會轉移到這個平台，有效地被代幣化，而那個代幣化的 [15:15] cash gets settled against a fund token with you know basically what we call near instant settlement and so what happens there is the uh tokenized cash is in the investor's blockchain cash account that moves to the fund manager's ca blockchain cash account and at the same time the fund token moves from the manager to the uh to the investor and what that allows us to do is really two things. 現金與基金代幣結算，我們稱之為近乎即時的結算，所以發生的情況是，代幣化的現金在投資者的區塊鏈現金帳戶中，轉移到基金經理的區塊鏈現金帳戶，同時基金代幣從經理轉移到投資者，這讓我們能夠做兩件事。 [15:39] One is it automates the movement of money. 一是它自動化了資金的移動。 [15:41] So no need for manual wires. 所以不需要手動電匯。 [15:45] And two is it gives us what I'll call, you know, almost perfect transparency on who actually has paid for this and who hasn't paid for this. 二是它給了我們所謂的，幾乎完美的透明度，關於誰實際支付了這筆款項，誰沒有支付。 [15:53] And the way we wrap this all together is, you know, there's a nice application or user interface that everyone can see and login and it makes their lives easier. 我們將這一切結合在一起的方式是，有一個很好的應用程式或使用者介面，每個人都可以看到並登入，這讓他們的生活更輕鬆。 [16:01] That's effectively fun flow. 這就是有效的資金流動。 [16:02] The other things to mention there really quickly are that you know because this data management becomes a lot easier for the fund manager we've been able to successfully argue that the fund manager doesn't require a feeder fund in this case which you know some cases they're requiring feeder funds just for 另外要快速提到的是，因為這個數據管理對基金經理來說變得容易多了，我們能夠成功地爭辯說，在這種情況下，基金經理不需要設立一個轉投資基金，而你知道在某些情況下，他們需要設立轉投資基金只是為了 [16:16] convenience reasons they don't want to deal with the data management and that saves end investors you know 15 20 basis points in structured costs. 出於便利性原因，他們不想處理數據管理，這為最終投資者節省了您知道的 15 到 20 個基點的結構化成本。 [16:25] and then the last thing I'll mention is that you know this for us uh it's early days this was a pilot uh we are looking to continue to scale all this out. 然後我最後要提到的一點是，您知道，對我們來說，這還處於早期階段，這是一個試點項目，我們希望繼續將所有這些規模化。 [16:31] But where we see this going is a future going back to the beginning of this conversation where assets interact with each other where you could do something like say taking a money market fund that's tokenized and using that as a funding source for a private equity capital call and the benefit there is an operational benefit because you connected these two things intrinsically by having them in the same chain. 但我們看到它的發展方向是未來，回到我們這次對話的開頭，資產可以相互作用，您可以做一些事情，例如將一個代幣化的貨幣市場基金作為私人股權資本募集的資金來源，這樣做的好處是運營上的好處，因為您通過將這兩者放在同一個鏈上，本質上將它們連接起來了。 [16:51] But then it's also a monetary benefit for the client who you know effectively eliminates the cash drag that's endemic in their portfolio from funding these particular things. 但同時，這也為客戶帶來了貨幣上的好處，您知道，這有效地消除了他們投資組合中為這些特定事項提供資金所固有的現金拖累。 [16:59] So essentially you're saying this is predominantly an efficiency play like you basically just need better database structure in that case blockchain that handles these range of processes more efficiently. 所以本質上您是在說，這主要是為了提高效率，就像您基本上只需要更好的數據庫結構，在這種情況下，區塊鏈可以更有效地處理這些一系列流程。 [17:12] The second thing is okay you could now plug in a tokenized money 第二件事是，好的，您現在可以插入一個代幣化的貨幣 [17:17] Market fund then you would have to move to a public blockchain. 市場基金，那麼你就必須轉移到一個公開的區塊鏈上。 [17:20] Correct. 正確。 [17:21] Well not necessarily. 嗯，不一定。 [17:23] I mean we could also deploy the money market fund onto the private blockchain which would more seamlessly connect those two things. 我的意思是我們也可以將貨幣市場基金部署到私有區塊鏈上，這樣可以更無縫地連接這兩者。 [17:28] But you're correct. 但你是對的。 [17:28] This, as described, is primarily an efficiency play, which is compelling and interesting, but we do think it leads to better product development. 正如所描述的，這主要是為了提高效率，這很有吸引力也很令人感興趣，但我們確實認為這能帶來更好的產品開發。 [17:37] But the other cool thing about it is, you know, we're actually tokenizing these funds, right? 但關於它的另一個很酷的事情是，你知道，我們實際上正在將這些基金代幣化，對吧？ [17:39] Like we're tokenizing this private equity fund. 就像我們正在將這個私募股權基金代幣化一樣。 [17:42] We solved for capital calls and should the fund manager want to also deploy that fund token for a distribution use case, so selling it on public blockchains, we will be able to do that fairly easily. 我們解決了資本募集的問題，如果基金經理還想將該基金代幣用於分發用例，例如在公開區塊鏈上出售，我們將能夠相當容易地做到這一點。 [17:55] Dennis, in December 2025, you also launched JP Morgan's Mooney, that's publicly like tokenized fund on Ethereum seated with 100 million in capital. 丹尼斯，在 2025 年 12 月，您還推出了摩根大通的 Mooney，這是一個在以太坊上公開代幣化的基金，注入了 1 億美元的資本。 [18:07] Can you just explain us a little bit how did that get started? 您能稍微解釋一下它是如何開始的嗎？ [18:10] Why did you launch that? 您為什麼要推出它？ [18:10] How did this all work? 這一切是如何運作的？ [18:13] Yeah, sure. 是的，當然。 [18:13] So, um, pretty quickly on in 2025, we realized that we would have a, 所以，嗯，在 2025 年初，我們意識到我們將會... [18:19] uh, a clear lane to deploy on public blockchain. 嗯，有一個清晰的跑道可以在公共區塊鏈上部署。 [18:22] And so we started, you know, taking all the great work that we've done over the years and started building towards the first uh or the first couple of different public blockchain launches that we would uh endeavor to do. 於是我們開始，你知道，把我們多年來所做的所有偉大工作都付諸實踐，並開始為我們將要努力實現的，第一個或前幾個不同的公共區塊鏈發行版進行建設。 [18:34] And where we started is really kind of harnessing the power of the firm. 而我們開始的地方，實際上是利用公司的力量。 [18:36] So we started with JP Morgan Asset Management, who obviously has the expertise and the knowhow of structuring, building, distributing, and managing money market funds. 所以我們從摩根大通資產管理開始，他們顯然在結構化、構建、分發和管理貨幣市場基金方面擁有專業知識和技能。 [18:45] And so we worked with them to try to get to marketly quickly. 於是我們與他們合作，試圖快速進入市場。 [18:50] And what we did is in December we deployed a tokenized money market fund uh onto Ethereum. 我們所做的是，在十二月，我們將一個代幣化的貨幣市場基金部署到了以太坊上。 [18:55] It launched with about 100 million of seed capital and the team that runs that product now is is out there having a ton of conversations and raising capital for for that particular uh fund. 它以約一億美元的種子資本啟動，而現在負責該產品的團隊正在進行大量的對話，並為該特定基金籌集資金。 [19:06] And so what's cool about it for us is that on the on the Kexus digital assets team truly was the realization of a vision that we've had for a long time. 所以對我們來說，這很酷的一點是，在 Kexus 數字資產團隊，這真正實現了我們長久以來的願景。 [19:16] the team, you know, is filled with blockchain nerds and people that are like super into this space and, 你知道，這個團隊充滿了區塊鏈愛好者和對這個領域非常熱衷的人， [19:21] know, it had been something that we wanted to strive for for a long time. 我知道，這是我們長久以來一直努力爭取的目標。 [19:24] And so, again, realizing that vision was really important for the team that's in place today and the team that, you know, that we've had historically as well. 所以，再次強調，實現這個願景對於今天的團隊以及我們歷史上擁有的團隊來說，都非常重要。 [19:32] Um, and so getting there was was an important moment for for us on that front. 嗯，所以到達那裡對我們來說是一個重要的時刻。 [19:35] And I think from here it's about how do we take that product which is cool and it's it's targeting you know those pools of capital on on blockchain rails on public blockchains. 我認為從現在開始，問題是如何將這個很棒的產品，它正在瞄準區塊鏈上的公共區塊鏈上的資本池。 [19:46] Uh how do we take that product and make it better than the BAU version the the regular way money market fund? 呃，我們如何將該產品做得比日常的貨幣市場基金版本更好？ [19:52] And for us we have a very clear path and vision towards how we get there. 對我們來說，我們有一個非常清晰的道路和願景，知道如何到達那裡。 [19:56] And it involves really three main things. 它涉及三個主要方面。 [19:58] One is trying to get to 247 liquidity where an investor has options to get out of this fund any time of day. 一是努力實現 24/7 流動性，讓投資者可以在一天中的任何時間贖回該基金。 [20:06] Two is what I would call hyper precise or minutely interest acrruals which for individuals may not move the needle that much but for corporate treasurers that have big cash balances and are trying to optimize that uh that could be a very significant addition for them where when they hold the fund for 二是所謂的超精確或細微的利息累積，這對個人來說可能影響不大，但對於擁有大量現金餘額並試圖優化這一點的公司財務主管來說，這可能是一個非常重要的補充，當他們持有該基金時。 [20:22] half a day they get half a day's worth [20:23] of interest. And then lastly is this [20:25] collateral use case and you're seeing [20:28] more talk about this in the US. Uh [20:30] different regulators are very focused on [20:32] enabling tokenized collateral and it [20:34] makes a lot of sense. You know you can [20:35] move our money fund today 24/7 365 and [20:39] that makes it very suitable to be able [20:41] to pledge it very precisely and you get [20:44] rid of some of these issues around [20:45] double pledging of assets and things [20:46] like that in in certain types of [20:48] transactions. So all in, we're quite [20:50] excited about money in in the future of [20:52] money market funds. So we'll have uh you [20:55] know at least uh at least a few more [20:57] this year that we'll go live with and [20:59] we're also looking to expand to other [21:00] chains as well. [21:01] >> Yeah. To other chains that runs on [21:03] Ethereum. So excited about that as well. [21:05] So another big topic is deposit tokens [21:08] versus stable coins. And we know that JP [21:11] Morgan launched the JPM coin on base [21:14] back in November. And you also just [21:16] announced a caner network integration. [21:18] And when you look at that is right now [21:21] Genius Act explicitly exempts deposit [21:25] tokens from stable coin regulation. How [21:27] do you look at deposit tokens versus [21:29] stable coins? What's the strategic play [21:31] here for JP Morgan? [21:33] >> Yeah. So, so for us the idea is to [21:36] extend out this capability that we have. [21:38] Right. So, we we've had these this thing [21:40] called blockchain deposit accounts for [21:41] quite some time. It is basically a bank [21:44] account, a bank account on blockchain [21:46] which is on the private permission [21:47] network. And what we did here is we took [21:50] this concept and extended it by you know [21:52] putting these tokens uh onto onto base [21:55] and in the future will be other networks [21:57] as well as you mentioned. Uh but the [21:59] idea overall is that actually you know [22:01] in some ways they could be competitive [22:03] to stable coins in some ways we think [22:05] they could actually be complimentary. [22:07] And so, for example, you know, what [22:08] regardless where we land on the yield [22:10] debate for stable coins, the stable coin [22:12] issuers themselves, they're going to [22:14] hold treasuries, but they probably also [22:16] need a very liquid cash-like product in [22:18] their capital stack as well. And this [22:20] could play that role, right? So, this is [22:22] a very liquid type investment. It will [22:25] you eventually have some yield [22:26] associated with it. And we're going to [22:29] be connecting this directly to JP Morgan [22:31] bank accounts. And so you'll have the [22:33] ability to more easily on-ramp and [22:35] off-ramp from JP Morgan bank accounts to [22:37] this deposit token product. I'll mention [22:40] still relatively early there, but as far [22:42] as you know, stable coins versus deposit [22:44] tokens, I think more complimentary than [22:46] people recognize. And we'll see how the [22:48] market develops. You know, I think uh [22:51] ultimately, you know, wholesale money [22:53] will will likely move through deposit [22:54] tokens more likely than stable coins. [22:56] And we often have this debate with [22:59] guests on our podcasts. How will that [23:01] stable coin situation play out? Will we [23:04] have like an explosion of different [23:06] stable coins and every bank will have [23:07] their own stable coin or will we have [23:09] like a consolidation around certain [23:11] issuers like Circle and Tether and we'll [23:14] mostly move to um deposit tokens on the [23:17] banking side. How do you think this is [23:18] going to play out? Do do you have a [23:20] theory here? [23:20] >> I I don't have a particularly [23:22] interesting or insightful theory here. I [23:24] think you know ultimately stable coins [23:25] and deposit tokens are distribution game [23:28] and so you know the groups today that [23:29] have done really well at distribution [23:31] whether that's through exchanges or [23:32] through DeFi or otherwise um will [23:35] probably continue to dominate those [23:37] types of networks you'll start to see [23:39] and you're already starting to see [23:40] additional use cases non-crypto trading [23:43] related use cases start to proliferate [23:46] and I think the groups that solve those [23:48] problems the best will you know get the [23:50] best distribution and you'll probably [23:51] start to see similar monopoly or duop [23:54] like outcomes like you've seen already [23:57] in the stable coin space. You know, [23:58] liquidity is incredibly important. Um, [24:01] and so I think there will be somewhat [24:03] category killers depending on the use [24:05] case. [24:06] >> Dennis, your Bane research found that [24:08] individuals hold around $150 trillion in [24:11] global wealth, but only allocate about [24:13] 5% to alternatives. Now, you've built [24:15] the infrastructure to change that. [24:17] What's actually stopping a wealth [24:19] advisor today from offering tokenized PE [24:22] or hedge fund access through a private [24:24] bank? Is it technology, regulation, or [24:27] culture? [24:27] >> Yeah, I mean, I think um [24:29] >> or all of them. [24:29] >> Yeah, it's probably a combination. I [24:31] think it's actually less on on the [24:32] regulation side. I think, you know, the [24:34] way we did it was was pretty [24:36] straightforward as far as, you know, [24:37] what's actually being tokenized, how [24:39] it's all working. And so, nothing I [24:41] don't believe anything very [24:42] controversial there. Um, I think you [24:44] know with a lot of these ideas and the [24:47] hypothesis that we had going into this [24:49] is that alts is um, alts are hard to [24:53] distribute, right? And so the groups [24:54] that are are good at selling these [24:56] assets, we want to give them reasons to [24:59] want to buy tokenized funds on behalf of [25:02] their clients or enable their clients to [25:03] buy tokenized funds. And as we get those [25:06] reasons, which we think will be around, [25:08] you know, more efficient settlement and [25:11] being able to connect these to other [25:12] types of assets, like I mentioned, the [25:13] money market fund example, and then just [25:16] streamlining those distributors [25:17] operations, [25:19] we think that they will start to demand [25:20] these kinds of products. Um, and the [25:23] conversations that we've had with [25:24] different fund managers, you know, [25:26] there's a spectrum. Some fund managers, [25:29] they, you know, basically delegate a lot [25:31] of their work on the admin and transfer [25:33] agency side entirely to their TAs and [25:36] their fund admins and they're pretty [25:37] handsoff. And so for them, they don't [25:40] really, you know, care too much about [25:41] like how this gets done. Uh, for other [25:44] groups like JP Morgan asset management, [25:46] for example, they are incredibly [25:47] rigorous and diligent as far as, you [25:49] know, doing the same set of shadow [25:52] accounting that fund administrator and [25:54] fund and transfer agent does. And so [25:55] what that means is that this is actually [25:57] a benefit for them too. Making it easier [25:59] to reconcile, making it easy to know who [26:01] actually owns this investment benefits [26:03] them as well as the the distributor. And [26:06] so we haven't had challenges convincing [26:08] fund managers that this is a good idea. [26:10] And then on the fund administrator side, [26:12] you know, we're plugged into SIKO as you [26:13] mentioned. We do a lot with JP Morgan [26:15] security services and we have several [26:17] relationships with several other TAs in [26:18] the space as well. And it's not that [26:20] fragmented. So we think we could get [26:22] there. What I'm getting at here is you [26:24] need to build the network. It is a [26:25] network technology. It's early days, but [26:27] we need to start showing and [26:28] demonstrating these benefits more [26:30] completely. And I think we're getting [26:31] there. We just did our first set of [26:33] capital calls for the first private [26:34] equity fund we tokenized. And what we [26:37] found are two really interesting things. [26:39] One is that money moved from client [26:43] account to the fund manager 38 times [26:46] faster. Was a couple minutes versus like [26:48] several hours to get the dollars over [26:49] there, which is great. Uh and then on [26:51] the other side the actual labor that [26:54] went into processing the files and you [26:56] know uploading and mapping and [26:58] reconciling we were able to reduce that [27:01] by about 93%. And so for the distributor [27:04] it becomes a pretty powerful value prop [27:05] where you have a very large team that [27:07] all they do is reconciliations and [27:08] things like that. And so we we think [27:10] we're getting there. It's going to take [27:11] a little bit of time. The technology I [27:14] don't think is the bottleneck. I think [27:15] you know we need to scale it up expand [27:17] it out to other types of alts as well. [27:19] the rag piece uh I don't think is is is [27:22] the challenge here. [27:23] >> A question about your multi-chain [27:25] strategy. You're operating across Kexis [27:28] private chains, Ethereum base, and now [27:30] also Canton and each with different [27:32] tradeoffs and also privacy compliance [27:34] and composibility structures. Is the [27:36] future a network of networks where [27:39] assets flow across chains or does [27:41] institutional finance eventually [27:43] consolidate around one or two or or [27:46] three platforms? What's your thesis [27:47] here? Yeah, I mean like I mentioned a [27:50] bit ago, I think there are too many [27:51] chains, right? And so you will start to [27:53] see a consolidation. Uh we like others [27:57] share the view that interoperability is [27:59] is key to a lot of use case and [28:02] proliferation of this overall idea. But [28:05] ultimately today the way we look at [28:06] especially on the public chain side is [28:07] is we look at them as distribution [28:09] mechanisms. You have on Ethereum 60% of [28:12] all stable coins issued. You have a ton [28:14] of users. You have uh very deep [28:16] liquidity pools. you have all these, you [28:18] know, decentralized apps that that [28:19] people can access. And so for us, when [28:22] we're working with fund managers, like [28:23] we want to ultimately deploy tokens and [28:26] assets where people are there to buy [28:28] them. And so for Ethereum, that's kind [28:29] of been the default starting place given [28:32] the Lindy effect. It's been around for a [28:33] while. It's quite decentralized and and [28:35] resilient. But then we'll also see other [28:38] chains where there's more, you know, [28:40] fintech and B2B TOC kind of use cases uh [28:43] developing because maybe there's better [28:45] throughput, etc. And so we're looking [28:48] there as well. Uh so we need to be [28:49] everywhere. We recognize that and how we [28:52] pull it all together and whether we need [28:53] to pull it all together. We're we're [28:55] still in kind of wait and see mode. Um I [28:58] know there's there's a lot of discussion [28:59] around, [29:01] you know, with real world assets. [29:05] I haven't seen and haven't heard a [29:07] phenomenal use case around the need to [29:10] go crosschain. you know, like I think [29:12] being able to take your assets from [29:14] chain A to chain B can be accomplished [29:16] in a number of different ways. Whether [29:18] that needs to be done atomically or very [29:20] quickly, I think is is a bit TBD. So, [29:23] we're kind of waiting and seeing how [29:24] that develops a bit more. [29:25] >> And if we're sitting here in 5 years and [29:27] tokenization has fully matured, what [29:30] does the wealth management industry look [29:32] like that doesn't exist today? [29:34] >> Yeah, I think the biggest thing that [29:35] doesn't exist today is is is wallets, [29:37] you know? So for this idea to gain [29:40] traction uh and this idea being a future [29:43] where wealth is managed almost entirely [29:45] on chain like I'm a big believer that [29:47] that's the direction that we're heading. [29:49] Uh for that to happen you need a place [29:52] and a way for investors to scalably hold [29:56] these assets. That is going to require [29:58] some kind of wallet solution. I don't [30:01] know that you know investors are going [30:03] to want to self-custody assets. I [30:06] personally have never been like, "Oh, I [30:07] want to self-custody my JP Morgan stock, [30:09] but maybe somebody wants to do that." [30:11] But I think the point is that you need [30:15] integrated wallet solutions into broader [30:18] places where people hold their wealth, [30:20] whether that's a brokerage platform, [30:21] custody account, whatever. Um, and then [30:23] I think once you get there, once you get [30:24] a very, you know, significant breath of [30:26] assets, different types of assets, [30:28] different asset classes on chain, then I [30:30] think that's where the magic happens. [30:31] That's where you can start to really do [30:33] interesting things as far as deliver [30:36] managed portfolios at scale with [30:38] infinite levels of personalization and [30:41] potentially enabling instant settlement [30:43] which the benefit again there is that [30:45] when you have that now all of a sudden [30:47] your portfolio doesn't need to hold like [30:49] any cash on a meaningful basis which is [30:51] kind of a secret tax on a wealth managed [30:53] portfolio where you know there's some [30:54] level of cash for uh investments that [30:57] haven't settled yet or opportunistic [30:59] kind of trades and so I think when we [31:00] look back in the future, maybe 5 years [31:02] from now, this idea of idle cash is [31:05] going away. [31:06] >> Dennis, you've been building at JP [31:08] Morgan now for the last 3 years. If you [31:10] look back at your journey, what were [31:12] some of the top learnings or [31:15] realizations you had while building [31:17] this? [31:18] >> Yeah. I mean, so I joined the space, I [31:21] joined the Kexus team as a pure [31:23] hobbyist. You know, I was doing a a good [31:26] amount of of crypto related work, [31:28] digital asset related work on my prior [31:29] team. But from the technology [31:31] perspective, I came in as as purely a [31:33] hobbyist. And so, you know, when you [31:34] come in that way, there's a lot to [31:36] learn. You know, there's a ton to learn [31:38] as far as like how it all comes [31:39] together, what's achievable, what's not [31:41] achievable. And so, I think just overall [31:43] getting immersed in the technology side [31:45] of this industry has been um [31:47] tremendously powerful and enlightening [31:49] as far as, you know, the cool things [31:51] that that can happen and and some things [31:52] that that can happen. I mean, I can't [31:54] tell you like how many conversations we [31:56] we go into where we think that we have a [31:59] beat on like a really good interesting [32:01] use case and we get in there, we're [32:02] like, uh, actually, that's not really [32:03] like a blockchain solved or tokenization [32:06] solved. That's really just something [32:07] where you need better data or better [32:09] data management or cleaner information, [32:11] uh, that kind of stuff. So, I think it's [32:14] been very helpful as far as truly [32:16] understanding like which use cases make [32:18] sense, which ones don't necessarily make [32:19] sense. and we've had a tremendous team [32:22] from the time I got here and it's been [32:24] just uh awesome to to learn so much from [32:27] folks within the group around the bank [32:29] and in the broader industry. [32:30] >> Are there any use cases that you think [32:32] are massively overhyped? [32:34] >> Massively overhyped. [32:36] No, I mean I think there's there's [32:37] definitely use cases that still need to [32:39] prove it. Like when you when you look at [32:41] tokenized assets on public chains beyond [32:43] money market funds, I still think it's a [32:45] question of product market fit. I think [32:47] you're soon starting to see some [32:48] interesting things on the tokenized [32:50] equity side where it's a global access [32:51] play and that makes sense but you know [32:54] for for other types of assets like you [32:56] know alts that have been tok like [32:57] private equity private credit funds that [32:59] have been tokenized on public [33:00] blockchains [33:01] I don't think we're we're quite there [33:03] yet. I think you know some of the [33:04] earlier iterations had structural flaws [33:06] associated with them and you just [33:08] haven't seen a meaningful bid for some [33:10] of those assets yet. And are there any [33:12] other areas outside of tokenization and [33:14] banking that you look at that you are [33:17] excited about when you see what's [33:18] happening in that industry? [33:19] >> Yeah, I mean look like what's going on [33:21] in AI is absolutely mind-blowing. It's [33:23] become like a part of our everyday lives [33:25] very very quickly. And you know in some [33:28] ways that shift um and that kind of chat [33:31] GBT moment was [33:35] really interesting to watch from within [33:37] you know another you I'll say like niche [33:38] technology focused team within the bank [33:40] because a lot of attention gets pulled [33:43] away from from what we were doing which [33:45] in some ways you know is not the best [33:47] thing but in some ways actually allowed [33:49] us to really focus on the mission and [33:50] focus on like what what actually matters [33:52] but no doubt we watch and we collaborate [33:54] very closely with our uh friends that [33:57] are working on different AI projects [33:58] throughout the bank and there's really [33:59] interesting things happening there and [34:02] you know I think there's going to be [34:03] eventually interesting convergences [34:06] between AI and crypto besides you know [34:08] the obvious of using some of the LLM to [34:10] help you build different pieces of code [34:12] but you know maybe going back to your [34:13] last question I think a lot of the early [34:16] uh discussion on you know crypto x AI [34:20] was probably overhyped you know some of [34:22] those use cases didn't didn't make a ton [34:24] of sense I think it's becoming more [34:26] refined as we go along. That probably [34:27] would have been a better answer. [34:28] >> Yeah, definitely agree with you on that. [34:30] Dennis, we're almost at the end of the [34:32] show. We usually do a quick lightning [34:34] round. Those are short questions with [34:36] short answers. The first one is deposit [34:39] tokens or stable coins. Which dominates [34:41] institutional payments in 2030? [34:44] >> Uh for institutional payments, deposit [34:46] tokens. I think it's just more it's more [34:48] scalable model uh that makes more sense. [34:50] The biggest internal obstacle to [34:52] tokenization at a global systemically [34:54] important bank, compliance, technology, [34:56] or politics. [34:57] >> I think it's just the sheer number of [34:58] people that we have to bring these ideas [35:00] to. [35:01] >> A tokenized PE access for the mass [35:03] affluent 2027 or 2032. [35:06] >> 2027 for sure. [35:07] >> That's great. Dennis, thank you for [35:09] coming on the show. It was a pleasure to [35:10] have you on. Where can people learn more [35:12] about you, about what JP Morgan is [35:14] building? Yeah, as mentioned, uh, the [35:17] Kexus team, we're going through a [35:19] relaunch of our marketing vision, and [35:21] you'll see some cool content on [35:22] LinkedIn, on the website, uh, [35:24] jmorggan.com/conexus. [35:26] So, feel free to go there and feel free [35:28] to reach out. [35:28] >> Great. Thank you, Dennis, and all the [35:30] best and talk soon. [35:31] >> All right, thanks so much, Mark. [35:32] >> You obviously like this video enough [35:34] that you got to the end. Listen, do me a [35:36] favor. Hit that like and subscribe [35:38] button because I think you'll like it. [35:41] And if you want even more with more I [35:43] mean incredible alpha research and [35:46] digital asset market updates, subscribe [35:48] to our newsletter on 51, that's the [35:51] number 51s.xyc [35:54] and get the most actionable insights on [35:56] digital assets. See you next time.