# In-Conversation | Catherine De Zegher & Griselda Pollock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxTZp42_eYE Translation: es [00:00] good evening everyone thank you so much Buenas noches a todos, muchas gracias [00:01] for coming tonight for this very special evening por venir esta noche a esta velada tan especial [00:04] um my name is Sonia I work here at the gallery um and it is my absolute pleasure to introduce our two legendary speakers tonight mi nombre es Sonia, trabajo aquí en la galería y es un placer absoluto presentar a nuestros dos legendarios oradores esta noche [00:12] uh um firstly Katherine ziger brilliant art historian and curator who's also the curator of this exhibition that you can see all around you called them women's work has never done which is titled after Catherine's um Anthology published in 2014 en primer lugar, Katherine ziger, brillante historiadora del arte y curadora, quien también es la curadora de esta exposición que pueden ver a su alrededor, titulada 'Women's Work Has Never Done', que lleva el título de la antología de Catherine publicada en 2014 [00:30] it's a fabulous book that we have copies of at FR Des um and Catherine is joined tonight by Gisela poock um renowned art historian writer scholar thinker list goes on curator curator es un libro fabuloso del que tenemos copias en FR Des y Catherine está acompañada esta noche por Gisela poock, renombrada historiadora del arte, escritora, académica, pensadora, la lista continúa, curadora, curadora [00:45] yeah um just to join the club yeah um griselda's recent Publications include and I have a list um woman in art Helen rosano's little book of 1944 published by by Paul melon Center in sí, solo para unirse al club, sí, las publicaciones recientes de Griselda incluyen, y tengo una lista, 'Woman in Art', el pequeño libro de Helen Rosano de 1944 publicado por el Paul Mellon Center en [01:02] 2023 um killing men and dying women. 2023 um matando hombres y muriendo mujeres. [01:05] Imagining difference in 1950s New York. Imaginando la diferencia en el Nueva York de los años 50. [01:08] Painting published by published by Manchester University press in 2022 and Pintura publicada por publicada por Manchester University press en 2022 y [01:13] Charlotte Solomon and the theater of memory published in 2018 by Yale University press um and Charlotte Solomon y el teatro de la memoria publicado en 2018 por Yale University press um y [01:18] Gisela I wanted to mention was also recently awarded the CAA distinguished Lifetime Achievement Award for writing on Art in 2023 um amongst many other boards and publications um so yeah we're going to be starting to talk in a few minutes at the end there will be some time for questions as well um and it will also be recorded so it should be available on our website very soon as well um yeah without further Ado I will hand over thank you both so much for joining us it's really an honor So yeah thank you so thank you Gisela quería mencionar que también recibió recientemente el premio CAA distinguished Lifetime Achievement Award por escribir sobre arte en 2023 um entre muchas otras juntas y publicaciones um así que sí vamos a empezar a hablar en unos minutos al final habrá tiempo para preguntas también um y también se grabará así que debería estar disponible en nuestro sitio web muy pronto también um sí sin más preámbulos cederé la palabra gracias a ambos por unirse es un verdadero honor Así que sí gracias así que gracias [01:58] So given the shape of the room and given that women have very quiet voices Así que dada la forma de la sala y dado que las mujeres tienen voces muy silenciosas [02:04] and tend not to speak up could you please agitate from the back if you're not hearing well and then maybe certain people could exchange places with certain other people to of halfway through to allow some people to sit down you might cause a little bit things but we could sort of be very communal about this if you could so um I am going to just start because as the sort of chair of this person who's going to start the conversation first of all to thank Sonia for organizing it and doing such a beautiful and gentle job in managing several slightly crazy ladies myself being the leading one of them um who managed to buy the tickets to go back to leads rather than to come to Le to London or to which was a little she was very gentle about that but um secondly obviously to Richard salun for hosting this exhibition and enabling a kind of reunion of several of us artists who were in the original inside the visible show one of whom is braa Ettinger who's here but also particularly reunions with [03:06] Katherine DEA because we have been in conversation of different kinds um since the early 1990s and indeed in preparing for this I went back down memory lane which I won't bore you with but it was because of um a series of event because I I met braa Ettinger I was interested in her work I went to Paris and then on the way she said well you must go and see my work up in in um CRA or um and off my poor little daughter who was dragged everywhere with me and now doesn't like going to art galleries a great deal um she traveled with me very gently and we went to Katherine's house and sat and you know I'm sure you have that experience when you meet somebody and you think well we're just we're in tune this is going to be lovely as opposed to going to Knocking on somebody's door saying I'm very pleased to meet you and you know come to things so we've been conversation obviously since that date and we're going to kind Katherine DEA porque hemos estado en conversación de diferentes tipos um desde principios de los 90 y de hecho al prepararme para esto volví a la memoria que no te aburriré pero fue debido a um una serie de eventos porque conocí a braa Ettinger me interesaba su trabajo fui a París y luego de camino dijo bueno debes ir a ver mi trabajo en en um CRA o um y se fue mi pobre hijita que fue arrastrada a todas partes conmigo y ahora no le gusta mucho ir a galerías de arte um viajó conmigo muy amablemente y fuimos a casa de Katherine y nos sentamos y sabes estoy segura de que tienes esa experiencia cuando conoces a alguien y piensas bueno estamos en sintonía esto va a ser encantador en lugar de ir a llamar a la puerta de alguien diciendo estoy muy contento de conocerte y sabes ven a las cosas así que hemos estado en conversación obviamente desde esa fecha y vamos a tipo [04:08] of follow it through in certain kinds of ways because we're starting at the end. de seguirlo de ciertas maneras porque estamos empezando por el final. [04:12] and I'm very glad to see that Ken's book which are all beautifully designed if any of you in her book designs her book design is rather remarkable. y me alegra mucho ver que el libro de Ken, que están todos bellamente diseñados, si alguno de ustedes en sus diseños de libros, su diseño de libro es bastante notable. [04:22] I think it's thicker than any book I've ever written so it's more of a door stopper so she wins she definitely wins in this. Creo que es más grueso que cualquier libro que haya escrito, así que es más como un tapón de puerta, así que ella gana, ella definitivamente gana en esto. [04:30] but it's packed with years and years and years of research that she delivered in terms of artists who just happen to be women. pero está lleno de años y años y años de investigación que entregó en términos de artistas que resultan ser mujeres. [04:43] now we can I would like to say I do not talk about women artists because the minute you talk about women artists they cease to be artists. ahora podemos, me gustaría decir que no hablo de artistas mujeres porque en el momento en que hablas de artistas mujeres, dejan de ser artistas. [04:48] and I would been carrying around a beautiful bag by Patricia Conan who's an American Artist saying with lots and lots of portraits of artists and saying artists Crossing out the female which is what the Americans call. y he estado llevando un hermoso bolso de Patricia Conan, que es una artista estadounidense, diciendo con muchos, muchos retratos de artistas y diciendo artistas tachando lo femenino, que es lo que los estadounidenses llaman. [05:02] so we have to think about language here um and in some sense the whole history of the problematic that Kina and I have. así que tenemos que pensar en el lenguaje aquí, eh, y en cierto sentido, toda la historia del problema que Kina y yo tenemos. [05:09] been involved in is under what circumstances did artists of a certain sort in the middle of the 20th century at the height of modernism get written out. ha estado involucrado está bajo qué circunstancias los artistas de cierto tipo a mediados del siglo XX en el apogeo del modernismo fueron olvidados. [05:21] so it's very important to understand women have never been written out until the middle of the 20th century. así que es muy importante entender que las mujeres nunca han sido olvidadas hasta mediados del siglo XX. [05:25] they are traced in every AR you know everywhere you go you'll find somebody doing something in UN in ways that are suitable for their time. se les rastrea en cada AR, sabes, dondequiera que vayas encontrarás a alguien haciendo algo en UN de maneras que son adecuadas para su tiempo. [05:36] whether they're nuns in convents or whether they are ladies in waiting at the Spanish Court of the various filipes Phillips there or whether they are commissioned to work at the courts of the 16th and 17th century or in theems whatever they. ya sean monjas en conventos o damas de compañía en la corte española de los diversos Felipes, o si se les encarga trabajar en las cortes de los siglos XVI y XVII o en los temas lo que sea. [05:52] but something crucial happens and we are dealing with the Fallout of that which means everybody thinks we're rediscovering them right. pero sucede algo crucial y estamos lidiando con las consecuencias de eso, lo que significa que todos piensan que los estamos redescubriendo, ¿verdad? [05:57] and to be called a rediscovered artist is to insert into language there must have been a reason why somebody forgot you right. y ser llamado un artista redescubierto es insertar en el lenguaje que debe haber habido una razón por la que alguien te olvidó, ¿verdad? [06:05] so we want to work out that Etc so así que queremos resolver eso, etc., así que [06:11] we have worked with a number of artists Hemos trabajado con un número de artistas [06:15] whose ways of being in the world and ways of thinking bring something remarkable to the world cuyas formas de estar en el mundo y formas de pensar aportan algo extraordinario al mundo [06:21] that if you are on mass excluded as black artists or queer artists or women artists prevents the world from having by means by which the by means of art que si se excluye masivamente a artistas negros o artistas queer o artistas mujeres, impide que el mundo tenga por medios por los cuales el arte [06:31] so there's a crucial thing of not just adding artists to some Cannon but actually understanding why does it matter that all the artists in Katherine's book A Woman's Work has never done or in many of her collections have got um a form of of presence where you can see them where you can read about them así que hay algo crucial, no solo añadir artistas a algún canon, sino realmente entender por qué importa que todos los artistas en el libro de Katherine A Woman's Work nunca lo hayan hecho o en muchas de sus colecciones tengan una forma de presencia donde puedas verlos, donde puedas leer sobre ellos [06:55] but also where you could read certain ways of looking at that work that are not about producing a brand that somebody can sell sino también donde podrías leer ciertas formas de ver ese trabajo que no se tratan de producir una marca que alguien pueda vender [07:03] that are not about making a career by mentioning lots of names right que no se tratan de hacer una carrera mencionando muchos nombres, ¿verdad? [07:09] and this takes a lot of work because as you can see from the y esto lleva mucho trabajo porque, como puedes ver por el [07:11] Exhibition here you can walk in and say what's going on here I don't know right now. Exposición aquí puedes entrar y decir qué está pasando aquí ahora mismo no lo sé. [07:18] Krine originally was an archaeologist and that brings to the way she becomes an artist or in something very special which is archaeology is about finding the hitherto invisible or making sense of what you find when you start digging and looking. Krine originalmente era arqueóloga y eso lleva a la forma en que se convierte en artista o en algo muy especial que es la arqueología se trata de encontrar lo hasta ahora invisible o dar sentido a lo que encuentras cuando empiezas a excavar y mirar. [07:37] Having to interpret it because it may be in fragments it may be traces it may not come to you all nicely packaged with a big Yale University monograph to put as another door stopper if you want. Tener que interpretarlo porque puede estar en fragmentos puede ser rastros puede que no te llegue todo bien empaquetado con una gran monografía de la Universidad de Yale para poner como otro pisapapeles si quieres. [07:51] So the the question of feminist curation or writing or thinking has been and which is I think is in the title of the inside the visible that what is what has been made become invisible to us is not by virtue of simple forgetting or overlooking or being bad but because we didn't have Así que la cuestión de la curaduría o escritura o pensamiento feminista ha sido y que creo que está en el título de lo visible que lo que se ha hecho invisible para nosotros no es en virtud de un simple olvido o pasar por alto o ser malo sino porque no teníamos [08:13] through a certain kind of discourse a través de un cierto tipo de discurso [08:15] which I'd say a phallocentric que yo diría falocéntrico [08:17] patriarchal eurocentric all these other patriarcal eurocéntrico todos estos otros [08:19] kinds of we didn't have a language so i' tipos de no teníamos un lenguaje así que yo [08:23] I'd like us to think about this sense of me gustaría que pensáramos en este sentido de [08:25] Ken's cation as about um a really la "cation" de Ken como sobre um realmente [08:28] remarkable able notable capaz [08:30] mind finding through her researches mente encontrando a través de sus investigaciones [08:33] always with talking to artists that they siempre al hablar con artistas que ellos [08:36] are están [08:36] generating either through their work or generando ya sea a través de su trabajo o [08:39] through the supplementary activities of a través de las actividades complementarias de [08:42] their writings about their work or sus escritos sobre su trabajo o [08:44] around even theoretical developments alrededor incluso de desarrollos teóricos [08:47] bringing us to ways of thinking that are trayéndonos a formas de pensar que son [08:50] deeply countering the phallocentric profundamente contrarias a lo falocéntrico [08:53] structures of meaning that have so estructuras de significado que nos han [08:55] normalized us that we think that if we normalizado tanto que pensamos que si nosotros [08:58] will go going to use the word as I say vamos a usar la palabra como digo [09:02] inside the visible elliptical traverses dentro de las traverses elípticas visibles [09:04] in of and from the feminine a very large en de y desde lo femenino una muy grande [09:07] proportion of feminists are going to say proporción de feministas van a decir [09:11] oh my God not that word right and yet we oh Dios mío esa palabra no ¿verdad? y sin embargo nosotros [09:16] deprive ourselves of the sense that there may be ways of living ways of seeing ways of understanding ways of creating that have individual significance because each artist speaks only in a personal voice we that's one one of the few people in the world who are allowed to right and if artists speak in a collective voice we say oh you're being political now you're being ideological but in fact the question of the singular voice but when it becomes a cacophony of singular voices speaking a lot we have that's why we have an exhibition where we bring them together not so that they'll say oh there's another little oh there's a very feminine nose okay there's a feminine pointy bit or it's not that it's to do with what is something that is not yet written not yet inscribed not yet recognized but is there right has been happening has been being inscribed in various ways so the kind of framing I want so if women's work is never done is one frame it means privarnos de la sensación de que puede haber formas de vivir, formas de ver, formas de entender, formas de crear que tengan significado individual porque cada artista habla solo con una voz personal, nosotros, somos una de las pocas personas en el mundo a las que se les permite hacerlo bien y si los artistas hablan con una voz colectiva, decimos, oh, ahora estás siendo político, ahora estás siendo ideológico, pero de hecho, la cuestión de la voz singular, pero cuando se convierte en una cacofonía de voces singulares que hablan mucho, tenemos, por eso tenemos una exposición donde los reunimos, no para que digan, oh, hay otro pequeño, oh, hay una nariz muy femenina, está bien, hay una parte puntiaguda femenina o no es eso, se trata de algo que aún no está escrito, aún no está inscrito, aún no está reconocido, pero está ahí, ha estado sucediendo, ha estado inscribiéndose de diversas maneras, así que el tipo de encuadre que quiero, así que si el trabajo de las mujeres nunca se termina es un marco, significa [10:17] we still haven't finished this project todavía no hemos terminado este proyecto [10:19] you all can't red BLS and say oh it's fine no pueden decir oh está bien [10:21] you can go down the road anywhere around here and find somebody making millions out of some woman artist who they are now selling pueden ir por el camino a cualquier lugar por aquí y encontrar a alguien que gana millones de alguna artista que ahora venden [10:28] but who was no one until certain people went and looked for them pero que no era nadie hasta que ciertas personas fueron a buscarlas [10:32] and I know climbed mountains not virtually but up the steep hills of different cities in Latin America to find the studios of women y sé que escalé montañas no virtualmente sino por las empinadas colinas de diferentes ciudades de América Latina para encontrar los estudios de mujeres [10:42] and find them and speak to them and have conversations and make work y encontrarlas y hablar con ellas y tener conversaciones y hacer trabajo [10:48] so a woman's work is never done así que el trabajo de una mujer nunca termina [10:50] definitely feminism is an unfinished process definitivamente el feminismo es un proceso inacabado [10:52] and it is only unfinished because we don't have a full sense of what it is to do feminist scholarship y solo está inacabado porque no tenemos un sentido completo de lo que es hacer estudios feministas [11:01] I I was going to say this is going to sound really silly iba a decir que esto va a sonar realmente tonto [11:04] it's one thing but it's one of the lines that people say es una cosa pero es una de las frases que la gente dice [11:06] I've only been doing it so far for about 50 is that right 50 years now solo lo he estado haciendo hasta ahora durante unos 50, ¿es correcto? 50 años ahora [11:12] and I just think I'm just beginning right y creo que recién estoy empezando, ¿verdad? [11:15] I've just got myself oriented to acabo de orientarme a [11:19] actually see things but without krine en realidad ver cosas pero sin krine [11:21] and indeed without braa who also here I y de hecho sin braa que también aquí yo [11:23] would not have got where I'm going so no habría llegado a donde voy así que [11:26] one of the works at Katrina things now I una de las obras en cosas de Katrina ahora yo [11:28] did do PowerPoint which you were meant hice PowerPoint que se suponía que [11:30] to be able to pick up on your phones debías poder recoger en tus teléfonos [11:32] through a um thing but we didn't quite a través de una cosa um pero no lo logramos del todo [11:34] manage that technology so you'll see me gestionar esa tecnología así que me verás [11:36] thinking about this Etc pensando en esto etc. [11:39] um I the the number of the works of of um yo el el número de las obras de de [11:44] of of Ken are extraordinary the the the de de Ken son extraordinarias las las las [11:48] Publications from um inside the visible publicaciones de um dentro de lo visible [11:51] to stage of drawing did with with Avis a la etapa de dibujo hizo con con Avis [11:54] Newman is that right that's that's the Newman es correcto ese es ese es el [11:55] one I have to go back and see yeah um que tengo que volver a ver sí um [11:58] artist compassion which is a monograph compasión del artista que es una monografía [12:00] she did on braa Ettinger um people saw ella hizo sobre braa Ettinger um la gente vio [12:03] me holding up this uh wonderful que sostenía esta uh maravillosa [12:06] collection here which is um from three colección aquí que es um de hace tres [12:10] years ago yeah which is um a magazine años sí que es um una revista [12:14] called see all this which has just I llamada ver todo esto que tiene solo yo [12:16] think about 35 essays or something like creo que unos 35 ensayos o algo así [12:19] that it counts up of every artist Under the Sun little essays on that on abstraction on line um on uh particular named particular artists and amongst whom would be Eva Hessa Martha Rosler um Julie maretu the the everybody you would really would think about but what do they have in common not particularly as artists have in common but what Kine discerns is in one sense a kind of ethic but particularly a question of the um what I'm going to call the kind of drawing a thread and drawing a thread which will take us to to chilia vuna particularly um not threads drawings but works that are therefore not immediately declaring what they are to you you have to think with them you have to come in here and say what's going on do I like this do I not you need to sort of see a que cuenta de cada artista bajo el sol, pequeños ensayos sobre eso, sobre la abstracción en línea, um, sobre uh artistas particulares nombrados y entre quienes estarían Eva Hessa, Martha Rosler, um, Julie maretu, todos en quienes realmente pensarías, pero ¿qué tienen en común? No particularmente como artistas tienen en común, pero lo que Kine discierne es en cierto sentido una especie de ética, pero particularmente una cuestión de, um, lo que voy a llamar el tipo de dibujo de un hilo y dibujo de un hilo que nos llevará a Chilia Vuna, particularmente, um, no hilos, dibujos, sino obras que por lo tanto no declaran inmediatamente lo que son para ti, tienes que pensar con ellas, tienes que venir aquí y decir, ¿qué está pasando? ¿Me gusta esto? ¿No me gusta? Necesitas ver una especie de [13:21] kind of subtlety and and quietude with which The Works will yield themselves to certain kind of longlook but looking in the framework in which um Kine has worked so this now sounds like too much of a one-sided conversation I'm going to but I want I want to bring this because I want to start talking to you about one of the places that your work as a curator started was in the light of everybody's decolonization at the moment was this wonderful exhibition called America Bride of the sun which was conceived by Paul Vanden Brook in uh in terms of the um national museum of Flanders is it the Royal Museum in antp mum Ro Museum of Fine Art the Royal Museum of Fine Art in antp and uh it was at the point of um we were celebrating or not celebrating um indeed questioning 1492 so this exhibition took place in 1992 and you were invited to um [14:25] Introduce to this story of the impact of the Spanish um world and the world that was the pre-colombian pre-spanish world of of Latin America on Europe through the eyes of Belgium um and its its colonies and things uh but to find out about women. Introducir a esta historia del impacto del mundo español y el mundo que era el mundo precolombino pre-español de América Latina en Europa a través de los ojos de Bélgica y sus colonias y cosas, pero para saber sobre las mujeres. [14:42] So maybe you could start there with how does this exhibition open the space that you've now been working in for so long. Así que tal vez podrías empezar ahí con cómo esta exposición abre el espacio en el que has estado trabajando durante tanto tiempo. [14:52] Well thank you g for such a beautiful introduction um. Bueno, gracias G por una hermosa introducción. [14:59] America Bride of the sun actually we never liked this title. América, Novia del Sol, en realidad nunca nos gustó este título. [15:02] We had proposed ver America which in Spanish means to see America and ver in flamish means far America. Habíamos propuesto ver América, que en español significa ver América, y ver en flamenco significa América lejana. [15:15] So we were looking with an exotic eye can you all hear back there. Así que estábamos mirando con un ojo exótico, ¿pueden oír todos ahí atrás? [15:17] We were looking with an exotic eye actually at South America and and I had Estábamos mirando con un ojo exótico, en realidad a Sudamérica y y yo tenía [15:28] suggested to Paul ven Brook why don't we um introduce the work of modern and contemporary artist so that they could actually criticize within the exhibition our looking at America South America and so we had a wonderful set of artists um uh sildo mereles um Gabriel Rosco Ana Maria Molin or Cecilia viun I think 25 artists who did big big projects inside the historical exhibition and um which led to um sometimes to conflict with the director who wanted it to be much quieter but they were so happy to be there and uh the staff was actually sugerido a Paul ven Brook, ¿por qué no presentamos el trabajo de artistas modernos y contemporáneos para que pudieran criticar dentro de la exposición, nuestra mirada a América del Sur, América, y así tuvimos un maravilloso conjunto de artistas, um uh sildo mereles, um Gabriel Rosco, Ana Maria Molin o Cecilia viun, creo que 25 artistas que hicieron grandes proyectos dentro de la exposición histórica y que a veces llevaron a conflictos con el director que quería que fuera mucho más tranquilo, pero estaban tan felices de estar allí y el personal estaba realmente [16:29] wonderful they were cooking for them. maravilloso estaban cocinando para ellos. [16:31] Every day was another meal, a Chilean meal, an Argentinian meal, and Cuban meal. Cada día era otra comida, una comida chilena, una comida argentina y una comida cubana. [16:37] And the atmosphere was very um was not it was not only tens but it was also um in a way very collaborative and so they felt that they really had to fulfill a task that you know 500 years of relationship between Latin America and the low countries. Y el ambiente era muy um no era no solo decenas sino que también era um en cierto modo muy colaborativo y entonces sintieron que realmente tenían que cumplir una tarea que sabes 500 años de relación entre América Latina y los países bajos. [17:02] Everybody can say what is that about? Todo el mundo puede decir ¿de qué se trata eso? [17:08] But because we had Yan van and were produced, he was producing all these works for the king of Spain. Pero porque teníamos a Yan van y se producían, él estaba produciendo todas estas obras para el rey de España. [17:19] And then these works went on ships to South America as a kind of conquista of the mind. Y luego estas obras fueron en barcos a América del Sur como una especie de conquista de la mente. [17:27] So the FL the Flemish Primitives in a way. Así que los FL los primitivos flamencos en cierto modo. [17:32] were part of the conquista of um um the mind of the eye because it was the first time that um perspective was um sent out in the world in such a way so for the native population it was very um well it was at the same time scary it was used in fact as our videos used now it was really um in French there is a writer I I can't remember his name now he speaks about o so it was really a battle of imagery it was who who has the strongest imagery who can conquer the mind because it was not enough to conquer the land and the and and to subject the people but they also wanted to conquer the mind and so the the paintings were used in that in [18:32] that way of course the politicians in flers were not very happy with that interpretation of of our role in South America so but the works went from Flanders through Spain to South America and we used in that way so we needed a kind of counterbalance how of Latin American voices speaking back to it to speak back to us and the best way to do that is to invite artists not to invite um historians or but to invite artists who look at us MH and who also look at their history and who can answer such a such a proposal because it's quite important because people who are not historians do not realize that until a very late point in well into the end of the seven wait 16th century and then into the 17th century that what is now what you call the low countries including Holland were under the hapsburg monarchy of Spain. [19:34] right Spain was the great monarchy of Europe getting richer and richer from the silver that it brought over and whenever you go to any European churches and you see all this beautiful kind of Catholic silver across every the where you know just your mind has to travel back to Peru to the Sy the mines and what we're going on there so I love the sense of reversing the gays yeah it was really reversing the gays and people probably not realizing that you know vanik that they might be looking up in the National Gallery is one of the you know instruments of this kind of ideological conversion um and um and also they were um superposing um the Virgin and the and um and the child on to the patcha mama you know so they were trying to um erase the imagery that existed and impose another imagery I mean it happens it still happens today it's the same technique it's you know you need and we [20:35] still need the critical eye of artist to [20:38] make us aware of that okay so that's a [20:40] very important aspect in sense that the [20:42] artists are not as it were counter [20:44] propaganda but they're engaging because [20:47] also the other thing about Latin America [20:48] which I think is important to bring in [20:50] which is they're some of the earliest [20:52] postcolonial societies so that I know [20:55] when I go to Argentina they say we got [20:56] independence in 18 28 so we've been [20:59] trying to negotiate [21:00] postcoloniality for you know a couple of [21:03] centuries so I think once you skew that [21:06] and bring in Latin America um and in [21:10] many other ways in many of the other um [21:13] artists you'll find also you're working [21:15] with countries that get put to the [21:17] margins even within Europe because [21:19] you're bringing in the for you home is [21:21] the low countries but in we said how [21:24] many you know Belgian and Dutch artists [21:26] can any of you name you know you'd still [21:29] find them [21:30] saying mandon but don't mention the one [21:33] with the beginning with v and second [21:35] name g we leave that one so any so [21:37] there's a number of different things [21:39] that are already going on which in your [21:41] practice then you keep that sense of [21:44] having to shift the [21:46] centers yes and at the same time you [21:49] also have to deal with the history there [21:52] there was a lot of um [21:55] dictatorships um at the time when these [21:58] artists were working starting to work in [22:01] in Chile in Argentina in Brazil so that [22:05] would that added another layer [22:08] onto uh when I was doing my research in [22:11] South America so I I met with artists [22:15] who really had to fight um and who were [22:18] still alive I mean we had a similar of [22:22] course the second world and the first [22:24] world the second world more than the [22:26] first world war we had similar um um [22:31] history but not in not in the way that [22:34] they had it but also they were living it [22:37] and they were telling me about it and [22:38] then they were telling me how how they [22:42] developed their practice to be able to [22:45] criticize a society at the same time not [22:47] being caught you know like one of the [22:51] artists would [22:52] make um on small leaflets of cigarette [22:57] paper would make drawings very [22:59] subversive drawings that he could hide [23:02] in his [23:03] pockets so that was also for me um [23:07] something that I tried to then develop [23:11] so sensitivity particularly to the the [23:14] the the living force of almost [23:17] contemporary and very deadly um and [23:20] indeed genocidal fascism which have run [23:23] through Latin American history post [23:26] 1950 uh For Whom the the the key victims [23:29] have been young people young thinkers [23:32] yeah right so this is I think also [23:34] another question of your [23:37] work being aware of kind of the [23:40] totalitarianisms and anti-fascism and [23:42] this is important because why would you [23:44] then turn to certain kinds of feminist [23:47] theories why would you need a feminist [23:49] theory that would be able to [23:52] identify some kind of deep imaginative [23:55] or imaginary symbolic system which is [23:57] isn't enough to say you know patriarchal [24:00] culture or we're fighting sexism we have [24:02] to get hold of something which is a [24:05] structure that captures the mind and [24:08] recurs in this so this is going to be my [24:10] segue into inside the visible because [24:14] inside the visible is one of the most [24:16] important exhibitions in my opinion ever [24:19] created that can continuously study [24:23] because you operate three radical things [24:25] first of all you rewrite the history of [24:28] the 20th [24:29] century centered on what we would call [24:33] both the feminine and the [24:36] anti-fascist even though when have to be [24:38] has to be fascism for you to be anti- it [24:40] Etc so we're dealing with the 20th [24:42] century which typical art history will [24:44] tell you that there were the movements [24:46] they did all of this and oh by the way [24:47] all these people had to suddenly leave [24:49] Europe and oh a whole bunch of them onto [24:51] there anymore they died you know [24:53] somewhere on Europe because of something [24:55] about them but we weren't going so all [24:57] of this sense of uh how art history [25:00] Smooths over and as a social historian [25:02] of art I was always told I couldn't be [25:04] an art historian because I brought in [25:06] this brutal nonsense like politics and [25:10] history and you shouldn't mention on [25:14] which side anybody was you shouldn't [25:17] locate it and but by thinking about the [25:21] 1930s and 40s the [25:24] 1960s and 70s and then the 1990s you [25:28] plotted out a different set of moments [25:30] of Crisis and of resistance and of in a [25:34] sense danger and uh providing us a way [25:37] of of thinking not of a of a continuous [25:40] flow but eruptions at which we can then [25:43] locate why artistic practices at certain [25:47] time became energized transformed [25:51] explosive you know regenerative and [25:55] resistant and but the same time your ex [25:57] exibition then found in each of these [26:00] three sort of temporal zones these [26:03] historical generational zones um you [26:07] discerned like an [26:08] archaeologist little Tendencies focuses [26:12] centers of Interest or centers of [26:16] gravity amongst the works that you chose [26:18] which were by women some to do with the [26:21] question of the body [26:23] sexuality others to do with language and [26:27] sort of breaking the smooth flow of [26:30] language years I kept every time you [26:33] have this thing in jant I would always [26:35] just go back thank this Google now which [26:37] is what is en Jam Etc because I'm not a [26:40] literary theorist so it means you break [26:42] the line when it shouldn't be broken is [26:44] that right and then ladona immobile [26:47] which means she's she's a bit she's a [26:49] bit flaky or risky Etc which was kind of [26:51] wildness and exalting and and and now [26:55] I'm going to forget number four which [26:56] was it had to do with space yeah yeah [27:00] yeah with Karina Cobo and and Veronica [27:04] okay so so that's that's already very [27:07] interesting model all of those you've [27:08] come through art school or history of [27:10] art you know where you've got ISM after [27:12] ISM after ISM you take it apart you just [27:15] say art is happening in different [27:17] constellations of crisis in different [27:20] places and what happens if we have [27:22] moments where we're going to go to [27:23] Poland as well as Venezuela that are [27:26] going to con coincide because then [27:28] you're also going to give this what I [27:30] came on later on to called the [27:31] generations and geographies how do you [27:33] hold this two set these two axes so [27:36] obviously I have to say thank you very [27:38] much because I probably derived it from [27:41] exactly from well I derived my title [27:43] from your Tex so okay we're going to be [27:45] very sweet about that in a minute I'm [27:47] sure but anyway now this is gone so [27:49] could you say a little bit more about [27:51] the history of the um uh of of um your [27:56] formation which comes from a previous [28:00] set of exhibitions that you produced [28:03] called begin the [28:05] begin so you'll have to explain Al you [28:07] it's a cold porter song begin the begin [28:10] so we can all sing along but it's [28:11] nothing to do with that well it's um [28:15] it's actually very simple um I had [28:18] developed the [28:19] exhibition and then I was presenting it [28:22] to several institutions in Belgium who [28:25] didn't want to show it so I was was a [28:27] bit [28:28] desperate and um I um on a trip I met [28:33] with s Stein in um in Los Angeles and [28:38] she said but why don't you do it in your [28:41] small City you find a place which is [28:46] where women were you know free and um [28:51] Unbound and I thought oh okay the beage [28:55] in corre [28:58] um which was a place in the um around [29:03] the beginning of the 13th century that [29:05] was created I think by johana of [29:08] Constantinople for women who were seen [29:12] actually as [29:13] unruly they were not religious and they [29:17] didn't want to get married so they were [29:19] a bit in between and they didn't really [29:21] know what to do with them but they were [29:26] caretakers um um they they soci workers [29:31] social workers in fact so they couldn't [29:33] really reject them although it is true [29:37] that um many many begins were burned [29:40] ended up on the steak on the steak yes [29:46] um so I thought okay that's that's maybe [29:49] a good place to begin and so we I [29:52] started in the space each time linking [29:54] two artists AIS was one of the artists [29:58] together with Anna Maria [30:00] Molino Mona was an artist together with [30:03] Diana Starbucks so I did the whole Braha [30:06] was there together with Nancy speiro so [30:09] there was um a whole group of artists um [30:13] I think 10 or was ITA Jona hatum and [30:16] Veronica jansen's Anamaria milino Avis [30:20] Newman Martha Rosler Nancy spir stach [30:23] Joel ter linkx and CH vun yes and um [30:28] what was very nice because they were [30:30] there for some time we had very long [30:33] conversations and I became more and more [30:36] aware that there was something [30:40] suing um that needed to really be [30:44] pronounced in a large scale exhibition [30:47] and the need for not only visual [30:49] language but also a textual language so [30:53] I also um was reading Julia stea I was [30:58] reading bra's work who came with this [31:01] very important theory of the [31:04] matrical and so we were more and more [31:07] all linked in a certain way and we were [31:10] really trying to put something in [31:13] language where that do that didn't exist [31:16] you know you have the [31:18] felic but you don't have anything else [31:21] like so I think that's was very [31:24] important what Braha did is just suppos [31:27] to the phic the metric [31:29] shell um bra can speak about this more [31:34] in length um but it's really yeah the [31:37] fellas next to the matrix it's not that [31:40] we wanted to eliminate the felic but we [31:43] wanted to be there as well so we're [31:46] alongside and when you have this group [31:50] of women who um you know we had a lot a [31:54] lot of talks together and so so I I was [31:58] trying actually to bring [32:01] my excitement to a larger public because [32:05] I thought this is really important it's [32:08] very important that there is a kind of [32:10] feminine [32:11] language um I must say I was never [32:14] attracted to art that was very violent [32:18] I'm more attracted to art that is caring [32:20] that is healing that is um domestic that [32:26] is really [32:27] you know um taking into account or using [32:31] other elements in life than competition [32:35] or destruction or you know for me the [32:39] radical is the [32:41] relational and I think that was the [32:45] difficulty of articulating that and so [32:48] that is actually at the basis of inside [32:51] to visible so I'm going to read a little [32:53] quotation which helps which is in the [32:56] documents that I I found in the Boston [32:58] Museum of um um was it the Boston Boston [33:03] yeah IA Boston the ICA The Institute of [33:05] Contemporary Art to which you proposed [33:07] it in which it says this exhibition [33:09] considers the impact of women artists on [33:12] Art produced in the 20th [33:14] century the exhibition title is derived [33:17] from the invisible axis of work done by [33:19] women that contributes to important art [33:21] movements but is itself never named or [33:25] categorized through the invest ation of [33:27] this invisible area parallel to the main [33:30] axis of established art history the [33:32] exhibition attempts to constitute a [33:35] counter memory so it's not an adding in [33:38] it's not oh here let's insert them in [33:41] but that there is another memory of the [33:44] history of the 20th century if you start [33:47] from that point of view and that's [33:49] obviously why in a sense um I think [33:52] we'll tell you a little bit about this [33:54] that um this is the point at which the [33:56] ax is so of braa Ettinger and cleen deer [34:00] and I intersected because having um met [34:04] braa in um because somebody told me to [34:07] look at an artist who was interested in [34:10] psychoanalysis so I did but what she [34:12] gave me was her paper Matrix and [34:14] metamorphosis and from that moment I [34:17] have never stopped believing that this [34:19] is one of the most radical interventions [34:22] that everybody needs to get their heads [34:24] around it's challenging it requires [34:26] quite a lot of engagement with [34:27] psychoanalysis that most of us don't [34:30] have because we haven't entered the [34:32] domain of this wonderful language that [34:35] deals with the psyche but what is [34:37] interesting to think of is how you [34:40] mobilize that [34:43] curator how you and so with the inside [34:46] the visible is another wonderful book [34:48] stopper the L about but it has this [34:52] beautiful essay by by braa not by kin a [34:56] beautiful essay by braa and then my role [34:59] sorry in a sense is to mediate between [35:03] the people who would never come across [35:07] either um approaches um because I try to [35:11] understand where people are where they [35:14] will find it difficult to make that [35:16] Crossing to the cross the bridge like I [35:18] was think of Venice you know there's a [35:19] little Bridge you have to cross to get [35:21] to a little other floating piece um and [35:25] the the history of [35:27] um feminism history of intellectual [35:29] trenes is there's people cluster on [35:31] certain Islands which they think at the [35:33] center of the universe and aren't [35:35] prepared to make that that various kinds [35:37] of Journey so I see that catalog as the [35:39] monument to a certain moment where [35:41] inance the three of us in different ways [35:44] came together an artist with this [35:47] wonderful sense of EX of how to shift [35:50] the fallace not to knock it out not to [35:52] put it away but in a sense to move [35:54] something which is already there but was [35:59] not theorized by the French feminists it [36:02] was not the feminine of Miss of Julia [36:04] christava or Lucy rer um but this is [36:08] where I came up with this idea which is [36:10] also owed something to Mary Kelly of [36:12] inscriptions in of and from the feminine [36:15] that something is inscribed from g into [36:18] art so you can see so she took a bit of [36:20] that and D took a bit of her and this so [36:23] this is another example of a a very [36:25] crucial moment and I just want to say [36:27] that it was in the visit when I came to [36:30] to cite to see bra's work and met you at [36:33] that point so the sounds that you also [36:35] showed me the book on charlot of zoman [36:38] yes that then captured me I thought I [36:40] saw this work and I thought which you [36:41] were showing in inside the [36:44] visible and I spent then 15 well no [36:49] actually more than that almost 20 years [36:51] so what you can add 19 I can't do 1992 [36:54] to 2018 obsessing about this till I [36:57] finally delivered this great lump of a [36:59] book but it's so a thanks to you it's [37:01] such a thinking about that but that of [37:03] required that's what it requires to work [37:05] out how to see works that everything in [37:08] your culture has made has invisibilized [37:12] because all the terms you've got are [37:14] blocking its its access to you so [37:16] another quotation I want to ask you to [37:18] comment which is this exhibition is [37:20] structured around three periods in the [37:21] 20th century and I've given you 30s 40s [37:24] 60s 7s and 90s so that [37:27] a different feminist temporality each of [37:30] these periods anticipated moments of [37:32] political turmoil and often stimulated [37:34] artistic production that redefined [37:36] artistic practice and historical [37:39] motivation of the exhibition is to [37:40] present the motion of recurrent Cycles [37:43] evidenced by similar work produced by [37:46] artists in different parts of the world [37:49] during different uh time [37:52] genealogies so this is kind of awesome [37:54] because you know we we clar you [37:56] Americans and French and you know [37:58] Venezuelans but how could something be [38:01] happening in these different Cycles with [38:03] IND difference that nonetheless we could [38:06] find this we could draw the threads [38:09] which would give us a different kind of [38:11] language so you say that rather than a [38:14] linear survey of estab um established [38:16] Genies the convergence revealed by the [38:19] exhibition the convergence revealed by [38:22] the exhibition so you haven't set it up [38:24] and said go from here to here here [38:27] something will happen and you have to do [38:29] some of that work you have to [38:32] discern something which is not carried [38:35] in your head because as what you were [38:37] taught is what you meant to do when you [38:39] see and our artists of course do this [38:41] all the time they are completely chaotic [38:43] put an artist in the gallery in an [38:45] artist story INR say we go from here to [38:47] here and then we'll see but no you know [38:49] kind of it's like a wonderful crisscross [38:51] of of understanding and no artist is [38:54] confined to her Century or his century [38:57] you know petition is as homely to [39:00] somebody making a mark on canvas today [39:03] like Helen Frank and tler you know got [39:06] TI in her mind uh in New York in the [39:08] 19570 but we would want to go on down [39:10] that one the convergence is revealed [39:13] that while situated within largely [39:15] patriarchal and imperialist cultures [39:17] Independent Women's voices have often [39:19] intervened to challenge the status quo [39:22] so the other aspect of the feminine that [39:26] we are trying to formulate here what you [39:28] were trying to for and braa is trying is [39:30] not just um abject and you know [39:34] oppressed and sneaking things but it [39:37] actually is um a critical challenge it's [39:41] a resource that we need and it's so [39:45] interesting how so anxious the world is [39:48] for anybody to say that that I think we [39:51] have been policed I think people have [39:54] not listened to the possibility [39:57] because we are so schooled into thinking [40:00] that any kind of claim of this kind and [40:04] this is the deadliest critique you can [40:06] make of any feminist it's [40:08] essentialist [40:10] yeah so whole you know generation whole [40:13] kind of bunch of us you know kind of 52% [40:16] of us have suddenly by virtue of trying [40:17] to say maybe we have something to say we [40:19] have fallen into a category of all [40:21] saying the same thing which is complete [40:24] nonsense so that one's out of the way [40:26] and then you say so women have often [40:28] intervened to challenge the status quo [40:31] inside the visible will feature the work [40:32] of international artists and you give [40:34] the list um the traditional methods of [40:37] museum display which aim to fix meanings [40:40] through ordered presentation and [40:42] didactics will be subverted in an effort [40:45] to heighten the visceral connections [40:48] explored throughout the exhibition so [40:52] we've talked about trying to find a [40:53] language in which to allow something to [40:56] become visible to Peak into the visible [41:00] but also this [41:03] requires not using certain languages [41:06] curatorial exhibitionary but [41:09] also allowing us to engage viser yeah so [41:14] maybe you could talk a little bit about [41:16] that PHA phrasing well I've um I [41:20] obviously traveled a lot but I was [41:23] always struck by convergences you know [41:28] like at certain [41:30] moments similar things happen in [41:34] different places in the world and you [41:36] can also see this in time so that's why [41:39] I'm thinking more I think we evolve more [41:43] in a cyclic way than in a linear way so [41:48] how can you make those convergences as a [41:51] curator [41:52] visible it's mostly through [41:56] um well you work with visual art so it's [42:00] it's lines it's color it's um content [42:04] it's um so so many things have to um fit [42:10] together in a way have to make [42:13] an I hope I have done this in this [42:16] exhibition too um when you can bring [42:20] these things together through time and [42:23] through space then you see um [42:27] a different story evolving a [42:31] different um way of seeing a different [42:34] way of [42:35] thinking and you know to to most um [42:40] existing systems it will look where it [42:42] will you know it will be seen as [42:45] irrational [42:47] or U chaotic or but once you immerse [42:51] yourself in it and you really it all [42:55] happens between you and the works and [42:57] then it also happens between the works [43:00] you create a space where it's [43:03] um where things can become apparent that [43:07] are not immediately [43:09] visible and I think that's art workking [43:12] you know that's how art Works um it [43:17] works of course we participate in a big [43:20] way and it's it's it works you know if [43:24] you go to the National Gallery which I [43:26] have just done we see things and we like [43:31] I think a lot of the paintings of the [43:33] Virgin and the child is like what we're [43:36] speaking about the matrical you know [43:39] it's trying to put um compassion in the [43:43] world love in the world [43:46] um other ways of seeing of perception in [43:51] the world and yeah the the way I worked [43:55] was I looked at a lot of work of [43:58] historical work by women in the early [44:01] 20th century and then for example I was [44:06] looking at the notion of the [44:09] object [44:10] so an artist like carama how was she [44:14] able to make that work in the 30s and [44:16] the 40s you know when fascism is [44:20] really um developing in a in an [44:23] incredible way how was she able to work [44:26] then you have um Louise bouris later on [44:30] all these artists who are working with [44:32] this which is very threatening for a [44:36] fascist Society so they were they were [44:39] using so I think the visceral is also [44:42] very [44:44] threatening and that's the way you [44:46] subvert things not by being very clear [44:48] and open and like let's go for that I [44:52] mean some women have been incredible [44:55] heroic [44:56] but I think art works on another level [44:59] and is more indirect but it goes very [45:03] deep I'm going to just take one more [45:05] point and then we'll have some some [45:07] questions which is one of the I call it [45:09] drawing a thread but you're obviously in [45:11] your work with Avis Newman on the [45:14] collections of drawings in the Tate and [45:16] in in some sense drawing and I I read [45:18] one comment by somebody about one of [45:20] your exhibitions which they went in and [45:23] they said oh there's just lots of marks [45:24] on pieces of paper and then then they [45:27] you know and they said but by the time [45:29] you actually spend time with it you see [45:31] what marks they are what you know that [45:33] that the time it takes to see work that [45:36] does not hit you in the face that has a [45:38] kind of understated but it requires um [45:43] which is a theme that I think I also [45:44] have derived from working with you and [45:47] with braa two things I'll pick up one is [45:49] the question of of paying attention to [45:53] what the legacies of the modern in art [45:56] was which [45:58] was suddenly realizing that the things [46:01] you used to make your art according to [46:04] something that had cultural significance [46:06] whether that was theology or history or [46:08] the real or socialism whatever that it [46:12] itself was sufficient so I'm really [46:15] interested in sort of not dismissing [46:17] this extraordinary [46:19] generativity of the moment when people [46:22] said your medium you know Fidelity to [46:25] your medium is a a way we break through [46:28] a sort of um a tutelage to something [46:32] else outside of art it doesn't mean you [46:35] escape from the world because increasing [46:37] of course we we read quite a lot of [46:38] abstract art but in a sense I think what [46:41] you also carry for from your study of [46:43] all these AR how line particularly which [46:48] is different from you know we think [46:49] about paint or we think about sculpture [46:51] you [46:53] get taught about all of those things Etc [46:56] but your particular thing is line and [46:58] Mark and gesture and a particular kind [47:02] of sensitivity to the more ephemeral [47:07] materialities of of paper or drawing you [47:10] know you see it in in in bra's work you [47:13] see it in even sort of work that's are [47:16] kind of prints where you still leave the [47:18] physicality and here um and I was [47:22] listening to a talk the other day about [47:24] Marlo Moss the Absolut spectacular early [47:27] 20th century [47:30] um was in but sort of [47:33] constructivist whose work has [47:35] disappeared in relation to somewhat I [47:38] mean okay mandre is fine but a bit [47:40] colorful for me um but she has this [47:43] correspondence with mandrian over months [47:45] and months about two lines just putting [47:49] two lines on a piece of paper right and [47:52] if you look up Marlo moss and you'll [47:54] find that extraordinary systematic [47:56] exploration over drawing after drawing [47:59] after drawing painting after painting [48:00] after painting of what happens just when [48:03] you put not just one line okay because [48:05] you get a vertical or a human being or a [48:07] bisection or a geometry Etc but two [48:09] lines okay which is [48:11] tuness right now what is the most [48:14] central figure of most compositions and [48:18] you know in our lives which is okay [48:20] this's the solty but what the Tunis [48:23] whether it's the mother child Tunis or [48:25] whether it's not just the mother and [48:27] child tunus but in something that BR has [48:29] tried to talk about that we never had [48:32] from the moments we had any sensation in [48:35] our beings registered as a sentient [48:38] being there was more than Oneness even [48:42] if it was unknown and so when you wrote [48:46] gave the title to the book that we both [48:48] edited on baha's work as an artist and [48:51] you said I think I remember this [48:54] conversation that you were going to braa [48:56] said she you were so touched but you had [48:58] said I think your art is about [49:00] compassion which of course is a theme [49:04] com hyen passion to be with and then [49:07] compassion uh which takes us back to [49:10] where we began which is what would it be [49:12] if we had had a whole history of art [49:16] written with the work of this part of [49:21] the universe that has been labeled women [49:25] with all the complexity diversity [49:28] historical specificity and the legacies [49:31] of what changed art in the 20th century [49:33] which was both un you know a way of [49:36] seeing it which enabled us to go back [49:38] and see the work that had served the [49:41] church or served Empire in SL in [49:44] slightly different ways Etc so I think [49:48] it's an interesting and important thing [49:50] that we end on that it matters that [49:52] we have these thoughts don't get get [49:55] caught up in debates about whether we [49:57] can use that word or we can't use that [49:59] word or the feminine is [50:01] absolutely the last word that be should [50:04] be used at the moment and you said [50:06] yourself how did it get that we would [50:08] find that that we would be so afraid of [50:11] just saying you know maybe there's [50:13] something there that might actually help [50:15] us counter [50:17] murderousness you know fascist [50:20] mentalities [50:21] militarism sexual [50:23] prediction planetary deficit [50:26] station so we got the answer here you [50:28] see for everything we need to sort out [50:30] no we don't but we need to think but you [50:32] have taught us to say we need to think [50:35] it in with the artists because they take [50:39] us to [50:40] places yeah it's um the same with [50:42] drawing I mean I got into the job of uh [50:47] being the director of the drawing Center [50:49] but I got more and more I think the [50:52] drawing chose me I didn't choose drawing [50:55] but it it's also it was also seen as a [50:59] subservient medium it wasn't considered [51:02] until recently it was really like [51:05] okay that's okay drawing and [51:11] um I when I spoke with a lot of artists [51:14] they and and AIS is definitely one of [51:17] them um you know she told me she [51:21] reminded me of this beautiful story [51:24] where is it the daughter the daughter of [51:27] bades who when her lover is leaving she [51:33] draws the shadow on the [51:37] wall so for me that was really yeah it [51:42] became clear that actually drawing is [51:45] about love and is about [51:48] um you know trying to find also the Lost [51:52] Duality like you say two lines um it's [51:56] trying to be at the same time attached [52:00] and detached you know it's it's the [52:03] moment of in of Independence still being [52:06] dependent but Independence so it's such [52:09] a beautiful [52:10] medium um that allows us to come into [52:14] being and I think that's where I got [52:17] more and more as you can see actually [52:20] Katie who worked with me at the drawing [52:23] Center uh worked on all these drawing [52:26] papers and we are all the time found [52:29] another way of you know describing [52:33] drawing or working with drawing and it's [52:36] um yes this desire to leave a mark but [52:40] also to leave it's about I [52:43] exist but it's even more about I exist [52:48] with I exist with the other I exist with [52:51] the surrounding world I it's again about [52:54] relation it's about a relational and and [52:57] I think drawing and I tried to to do [53:00] this in the exhibition [53:02] online where I could see that during the [53:06] 20th century the notion of the linear [53:09] which was very patriarchal felic [53:13] structure in fact was being very often [53:17] undermined by the work of women through [53:20] actually through weaving one of the uh [53:23] the ways they got to the the grid was [53:25] true [53:26] weaving um it's not always acknowledged [53:30] but like the work in Eva Hessa it's very [53:32] clear uh that she was working with [53:35] weaving and that but she would never say [53:38] that because you couldn't [53:40] say good modernist time yes you couldn't [53:43] she wanted to be in the world like all [53:45] the minimalist artists but she didn't [53:47] really want to use their language but [53:50] she also couldn't say that it was [53:53] weaving because it would be related to [53:55] craft so she was trying to transcend all [53:59] these categories and um so it's always [54:02] about how can we transcend this and how [54:05] can we bring another model into the [54:07] world another model of [54:09] coexistence and so that's how in online [54:12] I came to the web [54:14] actually um we had a big discussion at [54:18] MoMA about the title because they said [54:20] everybody will be confused I said yes [54:23] but candin [54:26] wrote the book online you know of course [54:30] he couldn't know what it would mean at [54:32] the end of the century but it's so [54:35] interesting to see how he's already [54:37] speaking of a point in movement so the [54:40] lot of the work I'm dealing with is [54:43] about movement is about um yeah changing [54:48] perception is about um yeah transcending [54:53] categories is yeah so drawing is a very [54:58] is a very good medium to do [55:01] that well thank you I'm going to leave [55:03] it there and see if we can have some [55:06] chance of you who sat so silently and [55:10] beautifully and enabled the sound of [55:12] Katherine to come isn't that interesting [55:14] that that almost your bodies have [55:16] silenced themselves so that her voice is [55:19] carried I hope enough because I have a [55:21] very low voice but would like to see if [55:23] people would like to join in and [55:26] ask questions to Kine or say [55:29] something so this is your chance anybody [55:32] wish to um join our conversation don't [55:36] feel your standing up and asking [55:37] question just [55:38] joining [55:46] yes thoughts [55:52] responses do you find [56:01] yes well I think yeah I think it's very [56:05] nice how Gela started the conversation [56:09] you know as an [56:11] archeologist you never know what you [56:13] will find you know it's um it's always [56:16] invisible it's under the ground it's um [56:20] um I guess I'm attracted by what is not [56:24] immediately commonly [56:27] accepted um I think there are other [56:29] things somewhere out there which are not [56:33] immediately visible and that's what I'm [56:35] attracted [56:38] to and come I just want to add that so [56:40] this I think thank you for that question [56:42] because it it is and what what is could [56:44] be inside the in inside the visible or [56:46] inside the invisible but we're aware [56:49] that the the the things that structure [56:52] Us in in our literally our [56:56] looking right I mean that there is a a [56:59] psychological dimension of what we want [57:01] to see what we see what we desire to see [57:04] what we do with seeing things Etc but [57:07] also it's clear you know that it is [57:10] possible not to see it can be always [57:13] right there but it is effectively [57:15] invisible it's [57:17] invisibilized by you know cultural [57:19] prejudices by racism by things and [57:22] that's this thing I think of working to [57:25] um challenge the the structures of [57:29] invisibilization and you you rais the [57:31] question and it comes up very early in [57:33] the catalog and inside the visible when [57:36] you invoke The matrixial Gaze which is a [57:39] lecture that braa gave actually in leads [57:43] um in [57:44] 1994 which I published as a little [57:47] booklet um because it's saying okay [57:51] there are you know in sense a phallic [57:54] gaze is you know looks to see an [57:59] something and is therefore in a [58:01] structure of inance control or power or [58:04] domination Etc but what would be if [58:07] there's another kind of gazing which of [58:10] course in one sense needs a [58:12] psychoanalytical theory to get us away [58:15] from ocularity and Optical and all of [58:18] those things but the same time is what [58:20] we already know because when you're [58:24] talking about you know even the sense [58:25] that you go into an exhibition and you [58:27] spend time with it with the works you [58:31] know what what what happens to you um [58:34] again bra has talk about this in sense [58:36] almost as you lay down your do I like [58:39] this what is this you know who's it by [58:41] you know where does it fit you know all [58:43] those kinds of armored anxieties when [58:46] you're confronted with what perplexes [58:48] you you can lay down your gaze like as [58:51] Lon said you lay down your weapons and [58:54] you to take time for you know not in [58:58] sense for it's not magically working [59:01] upon you Etc but you have [59:03] to look in a different way which is [59:06] allowing something that was invisible to [59:09] you this is a piece of paper or this is [59:11] just a line to actually work out this I [59:14] mean I suppose all of us who do art [59:16] history or teach art history is how to [59:18] work out how this is working you know [59:22] how does this do something in its its [59:26] activities on a piece of paper even if [59:27] it's just one line or two lines or you [59:30] know something that looks very [59:31] fragmentary it takes yeah and that's [59:34] also why I like working with artists [59:37] because they actually see things that we [59:40] don't see and not of the work you know [59:44] brings about things that we don't [59:46] immediately [59:48] see yeah I mean because often when I was [59:50] teaching Fine Art and you do you'd go [59:52] into the studios you just think think [59:55] where on Earth did that come from you [59:58] know two days ago there was somebody [01:00:00] messing around I there was one of my [01:00:02] remember one student who'd obviously [01:00:03] seen a Sarah Lucas exhibition and had [01:00:06] some of you know concrete blocks and I [01:00:08] thought oh dear you know somebody's told [01:00:11] him actually to go and see Sarah Luke [01:00:12] said and about three days later I tled [01:00:15] by because I had a a walkway went [01:00:17] through the studio to my office and I [01:00:19] thought wait a minute you know what's [01:00:22] happened because suddenly you think I'm [01:00:24] looking at a work there's some internal [01:00:28] economy that has happened here which is [01:00:31] no longer anything to do with s Sarah [01:00:32] Lucas and that sort of Stuff Etc but [01:00:35] what was that that then suddenly was [01:00:38] something that I thought where and I [01:00:40] frequently had that sense which is you [01:00:43] know the endless or how did that [01:00:46] suddenly configure in such a way that it [01:00:49] holds something that is going to hold my [01:00:52] gaze for a while to try and see what is [01:00:56] happening here right not what is this [01:00:59] but what is happening here what is it [01:01:01] doing it happened you know very often [01:01:03] when I was walking with Mara Rosler [01:01:06] through the streets in New York she [01:01:09] would absolutely see things I had passed [01:01:13] by so many times and she would see [01:01:16] things that I had never seen but all the [01:01:19] time not like once very often the same [01:01:23] with Nancy speo they they see [01:01:26] unremarkable things unremarkable things [01:01:30] but they yeah they see it and that it it [01:01:33] trains your eye it makes it's like an [01:01:36] exercise for your eyes then you see more [01:01:39] and more and of course you become more [01:01:41] and more critical at the same time [01:01:44] because like you said we're so fed with [01:01:47] and now day even more all this imagery [01:01:50] coming to us [01:01:53] constantly that we we really need art [01:01:55] and artist to undo this for us to to [01:02:01] look at it being able even to look at it [01:02:06] critically yeah so that's a long answer [01:02:09] a question [01:02:16] maret [01:02:17] [Music] [01:02:20] and rubbings and I ring [01:02:24] has a special place in your yes I think [01:02:29] um you know when I made um ocean flowers [01:02:33] there was a book about how the the [01:02:36] competition not the competition I don't [01:02:38] call it competition it was about the [01:02:41] interaction of all kinds of [01:02:44] mediums in the area of work on paper and [01:02:48] you have impression you have rubbing you [01:02:50] have all these you know possibilities of [01:02:54] um making work and then the photogram [01:02:58] and the uh so yes I think um frage [01:03:03] actually the work of Simon [01:03:06] Gil um she works a lot with frage is [01:03:10] um yeah it's you know how do we capture [01:03:14] reality how how can we deal with [01:03:17] something with memory the frage is s is [01:03:21] often used I mean the surrealist use [01:03:25] in a very creative way [01:03:29] yeah [01:03:31] okay yeah I I link to the question that [01:03:35] was asked there about the [01:03:38] invisible and I think that in in this [01:03:41] show and in inside the visible it's [01:03:44] quite clear also that you relate not [01:03:47] only to art history and not only to but [01:03:51] you relate deeply to a question that are [01:03:55] philosophical questioned all over 20th [01:03:57] century and even 9th 90th Century we [01:04:01] think that the invisible is not possible [01:04:03] it's either visible or or we cannot talk [01:04:07] about the invisible in the visible but [01:04:09] in [01:04:10] fact most of the things you work with [01:04:13] and then the artist you choose are [01:04:15] working with are about the [01:04:17] transformation from invisibility to a [01:04:20] visible because even idea idea is [01:04:23] something which is invisible there's a [01:04:26] lot of things that are invisible and [01:04:28] then they get some forms of visibility [01:04:32] they could have received other forms of [01:04:34] visibility but I I I'm saying that in [01:04:37] order to emphasize something that is [01:04:39] very important that you have been doing [01:04:42] and gelda have been doing for millions [01:04:45] of years is that art history is full of [01:04:51] political agendas and Marxist thinking [01:04:55] and political the German thinking of the [01:04:58] you know Frankfurt School and so on and [01:05:00] so on and you bring in philosophy in a [01:05:04] different way and [01:05:05] psychoanalysis and one of the [01:05:07] interesting thing was on the three [01:05:10] dimensions of the three periods of [01:05:13] psychoanalysis the period of John olier [01:05:17] the [01:05:18] feminine since we couldn't speak about [01:05:20] the feminine was not possible was the [01:05:23] masquerade what was femininity a [01:05:26] masquerade to the folic um body and [01:05:30] concept right this was very rooted in [01:05:35] psychoanalysis at that period because we [01:05:38] people were afraid to [01:05:40] think Essence we don't know what it is [01:05:43] by the way we don't know what it is but [01:05:47] so mascarin and when this uh faded out [01:05:52] cha and the object the reject the [01:05:55] Revolutionary moment we need that in [01:05:58] order to establish subjectivity the [01:06:02] other whatever I reject whatever rejects [01:06:05] me Etc and then the moment of [01:06:09] compassion which is then the [01:06:12] co-emergence which I think [01:06:15] is [01:06:17] um yeah I mean we we we have to continue [01:06:21] to think in that way what is the [01:06:25] feminine and why in psycho analysis the [01:06:27] feminine and the maternal were so [01:06:30] split so you either either a Madonna who [01:06:33] looks after a child or you are a sexual [01:06:36] being most of your artists reject that [01:06:40] partition without formulating it even [01:06:43] without saying we we reject it but if we [01:06:47] think about the feminine we look at [01:06:50] philosophy it's always either you are [01:06:53] mother or you are are a subject or you [01:06:55] are a woman Etc and all these [01:07:00] categories that both your proposition [01:07:03] refuse right from the beginning and the [01:07:06] way you use this three period in the [01:07:09] exhibition now and then was for [01:07:12] me wonderful because you didn't say the [01:07:16] artist of the 30s work in a way that [01:07:19] would resemble what John rier said in [01:07:22] the artist of the 70 you showed that all [01:07:25] of this is already invisible [01:07:29] Unthinkable before and it is AR thiss [01:07:33] were mixing these Trends unknowingly or [01:07:36] knowingly and not by and that's one of [01:07:39] the purposes I think or the res that [01:07:45] that it was nonlinear you you mixed [01:07:48] periods you you drew lines for the [01:07:52] viewer to look [01:07:54] and forget about those as if it's real [01:07:58] period in history so I think this is [01:08:02] yeah very corial Gest which is very [01:08:05] remarkable well I also if we consider [01:08:09] the last room you know now it's all over [01:08:12] Eco feminism but a lot of women artists [01:08:17] were working a long time ago on this [01:08:21] because and there they will say we are [01:08:25] essentialists because the Earth is [01:08:28] linked you know philosophically psych [01:08:31] with with woman but it's it's true that [01:08:36] artists a lot of artists have been [01:08:38] working since a long time which is now [01:08:41] only becoming visible in a way and I [01:08:44] would even say that they anticipated [01:08:48] they build they worked on the fact that [01:08:51] our society would finally see what is [01:08:55] necessary to to save the planet [01:08:58] basically so like Cecilia vuna so it's [01:09:02] that for me is also what the invisible [01:09:05] is you know like trying to understand [01:09:09] what is because often they they don't [01:09:13] know you [01:09:15] know Maria always said to me don't write [01:09:18] about my work because then I can't do [01:09:20] any work anymore because I don't know [01:09:22] how I do my work [01:09:25] so it's um and then it it needs um you [01:09:31] know it it needs this fact that you look [01:09:34] back and forward to understand what uh I [01:09:38] think the fact that now we're speaking [01:09:40] about Eco feminism and about the planet [01:09:43] is for a big deal to uh thanks to artist [01:09:47] who've been working on this for a very [01:09:49] very long [01:09:51] time before 70s when it was coined by [01:09:57] Fran name she wrote a book called The [01:10:00] feminism or Lor feminism or death yes [01:10:04] and we just didn't read it right somehow [01:10:07] it was I mean it wasn't translated but I [01:10:09] mean she was there in this and and she [01:10:11] was also writing a book in 74 called [01:10:16] um sex his history of Art and sex [01:10:20] struggle gender struggle um she don't [01:10:24] now yeah we know she I mean you know [01:10:26] that what that's where [01:10:27] someone was missed and then the moment [01:10:30] that of [01:10:31] our um their our [01:10:34] need may come that forward and I think [01:10:38] it's an interesting thing because Eco [01:10:39] feminism of all the feminisms is more [01:10:41] torn apart yeah by the fear that Evol [01:10:45] saying any proposition between something [01:10:48] called the feminine and and life is [01:10:50] going to fall into a particular hole and [01:10:53] I use that advisedly um but it is I [01:10:57] think significant that we are witnessing [01:11:00] such uh a sort of cultural increase in [01:11:03] violence against women such a r you know [01:11:06] risk to women and so lies such [01:11:08] dimensions of [01:11:11] this and the silencing of the [01:11:14] possibility that there is [01:11:16] something of a different [01:11:19] ordering of the sets of relationships [01:11:23] between life and subjects and the world [01:11:27] and it's not that there's something [01:11:29] growing inside women because women [01:11:31] because we don't know the whole point is [01:11:33] that's the invisible we don't know what [01:11:36] you know historically we talk about we [01:11:38] don't know if we don't study what women [01:11:41] people who think themselves women [01:11:42] inscribe into culture we won't know what [01:11:45] it is that that is because we've given [01:11:47] narratives which create this level of [01:11:51] anxiety so I think that's one of the [01:11:52] things about your show which was was to [01:11:54] dare to say inscriptions in of and [01:11:57] from which is yeah covering a large area [01:12:02] well it's it's that art writes something [01:12:06] into the script of culture but it may [01:12:09] not be legible unless we have other [01:12:13] processes by which we provide it with [01:12:16] the frame of its legibility now one of [01:12:18] them might be psychoanalysis another [01:12:20] might be [01:12:21] ecofeminism you know and other might be [01:12:24] theories of the object and things but [01:12:26] these are all [01:12:27] contributions to a 20th century [01:12:32] investigation into these key questions [01:12:36] and they correspond with major movements [01:12:38] in Philosophy from bonian materialism to [01:12:42] phenomenology to yes you know for [01:12:46] example uh there are two artists here [01:12:48] who are very involved urar and Natalie [01:12:52] Taylor with the with the soil and with [01:12:55] the Rocks you know how I mean I for me [01:13:00] it was like when when I met with Ura I [01:13:04] was thinking how can you record [01:13:07] rocks but it was to you know to bring in [01:13:11] the [01:13:12] nonhuman next to the [01:13:14] human and now I mean now for me a [01:13:18] landscape speaks more to me than it did [01:13:22] before because you become aware that [01:13:25] everything is living [01:13:27] basically and that I think is again a [01:13:30] contribution of artist definitely to my [01:13:33] life also there are two beautiful films [01:13:35] here and um Natalie works with the soil [01:13:41] you know [01:13:43] like I [01:13:46] mean they open our eyes basically and [01:13:49] they've been opening them for a very [01:13:51] very long time and now we we're all like [01:13:55] okay okay we have to save the planet but [01:13:57] I can it's it's it's I mean we we have [01:14:03] to thank these artists who worked for a [01:14:05] long time to that I mean the key [01:14:08] question is the planet is not going to [01:14:10] save us no you'll do quite well without [01:14:13] us I think that's a very important [01:14:17] element of this that we are not the [01:14:19] Guardians and gods exactly of an [01:14:22] environment but we are abusers in some [01:14:25] sense but abusing ourselves in the [01:14:27] process as well there was one speaking [01:14:29] to Jee Pon and I said well um that's the [01:14:34] end on of the world and he said no no [01:14:36] the world will go on we may not be there [01:14:40] but the Earth planet Earth is going the [01:14:42] Earth was you know the Dinosaurs Aren't [01:14:44] here but the Earth is still [01:14:46] here remember that but we won't end on [01:14:49] that to so we need another question now [01:14:53] is it is it now time oh there's there's [01:14:56] another question okay any I have one [01:14:59] question I just want to talk about the [01:15:01] body and I haven't seen the show yet so [01:15:04] I've been waiting to see but how you [01:15:06] feel [01:15:08] about I don't want to say the female [01:15:10] gays the male G but the idea that our [01:15:13] gays is built from all of the things you [01:15:16] talked about it's [01:15:18] constructed from a male gaze and how [01:15:21] artists can [01:15:23] not break it but change it um is there a [01:15:28] you know how do you feel about [01:15:30] that about the body well just the like [01:15:33] the female representation of the [01:15:35] body uh the idea of self-portraiture how [01:15:40] we express the [01:15:43] invisible what's below the body yeah it [01:15:46] was one of the important chapters and [01:15:48] inside [01:15:49] visible um like with clo kaha with uh [01:15:53] yay Kama with uh all these artists who [01:15:57] were of course extending our perception [01:16:01] of the female [01:16:02] body um yeah I I think I have you know I [01:16:07] see it more now in the relation to the [01:16:10] Earth and more than but it was a very [01:16:15] important step of course at that time [01:16:18] and it still remains an important step [01:16:20] because we should not forget that maybe [01:16:23] feminism is developing but if you think [01:16:27] of all the other countries [01:16:31] like visual culture it's in the world [01:16:34] there's still yeah I mean it's still not [01:16:37] where maybe art got to yes so it's it's [01:16:42] an it's definitely a subject that has to [01:16:45] be continued to to be developed but [01:16:49] that's some I mean it's different I mean [01:16:51] it's different probably in Saudi Arabia [01:16:54] and then in Pakistan and in India than [01:16:57] it is [01:17:00] here I'm going to just interview in a [01:17:02] very terrible Academic Way which is [01:17:05] there is no such thing as the male gaze [01:17:07] it was unfortunately used once by Laura [01:17:10] malvi in an essay which is all about [01:17:13] saying there is no such thing there can [01:17:16] be a certain [01:17:18] masculinization of I mean that's why I [01:17:20] want to use those words but yeah but [01:17:22] it's it's important because maleness and [01:17:25] femaleness then we we're all in a mess [01:17:27] about what that is at the moment which I [01:17:29] won't even go to my says do not talk [01:17:30] about that not okay but obviously in a [01:17:34] sense we we need that the psychoanalysis [01:17:37] gave us incredible tools to understand [01:17:40] how the investment W of vision as one of [01:17:46] the instruments by which we grasp the [01:17:49] world okay so you know gripping things [01:17:53] Etc take sucking things bitting things [01:17:55] out Etc and then this extraordinary [01:17:58] highly developed ocular system which we [01:18:00] have which becomes a way and that this [01:18:03] is then [01:18:04] invested psychically invested with a [01:18:08] number of interesting phenomenon of [01:18:11] which are either pleasurable or [01:18:14] unpleasurable Etc so there's a whole [01:18:17] structure there and I think that's where [01:18:19] one of the things I feel is that um [01:18:21] between psycho analysis and film culture [01:18:24] and I've always used to give a very long [01:18:26] seminar on Laura [01:18:28] malvy's very beautiful structuring of [01:18:31] and I can give you the reference I she [01:18:33] wrote this all out of her chapter which [01:18:36] is about how does it end [01:18:39] up that certain um investments in [01:18:46] Vision can become either [01:18:48] narcissistic or veristic or erotic [01:18:53] or um in a sense um negative I mean [01:18:58] murderous right so that's why we have to [01:19:00] break that down and what system sustains [01:19:03] and reproduces that in Us in so the an [01:19:07] apparatus of that in certain sense and [01:19:09] that's made huge problems precisely to [01:19:13] say what happens when we move then into [01:19:16] can I represent myself what is [01:19:19] this body um and I I suspect I I think [01:19:23] we have not solved that in in any sense [01:19:26] but we probably need not [01:19:30] to allow ourselves to slip in this new [01:19:34] age into saying we don't need to go [01:19:36] through that difficult work of plotting [01:19:39] this out through I mean as I mentioned [01:19:42] um bergon or phenomenology you know what [01:19:46] does it mean to say I'm I'm flesh with [01:19:48] the world and not to see I'm a [01:19:50] delineated thing you know where where is [01:19:53] my body right and so much artwork has [01:19:58] displaced that configured [01:20:01] body and yet there was a moment for for [01:20:04] M to claim I need to configure myself I [01:20:07] need to make myself visible but then you [01:20:10] run into all this other stuff that's [01:20:12] happening in gazing and so I think there [01:20:16] are these different theories of this of [01:20:19] the sort of from the classic Freudian [01:20:21] and leanian that even that is another [01:20:24] kind of gaze which I can't even begin to [01:20:26] tell you how complicated but BR [01:20:28] complicated yeah but but I I promise you [01:20:32] if you sit down and read the matrixial [01:20:34] Gaze you will get one of the coherent [01:20:36] accounts of what the Freud in and the [01:20:39] sanan Gaze and then since what might be [01:20:43] another [01:20:44] gazing which maybe is already happening [01:20:48] in the artworks that do not produce that [01:20:52] particular particular set of psychic [01:20:54] structures that Freud so clearly named [01:20:59] in his study of the sort of [01:21:01] eroticization of the Gaze and I think [01:21:04] that's where there's a lot more to be [01:21:06] said about this I don't know if you want [01:21:08] to say something I would only say that [01:21:11] it's [01:21:12] U it's incredible because [01:21:16] um the idea the phic gays the May [01:21:21] gaze I think it's time that we allow [01:21:24] ourselves to think other forms of gaze [01:21:28] without thinking that we have to reply [01:21:32] to the f g the matri G is around for 30 [01:21:36] years for example could be other forms [01:21:40] that are already there women's work is [01:21:43] never done cine likes to say but but [01:21:47] really the work there's enormous work on [01:21:51] trying to figure out about a dimension [01:21:54] of the matrixial Gaze which do not [01:21:57] reject not accept not promote not reply [01:22:01] to the [01:22:02] F but offering another field and this [01:22:07] was one of the the thing we I think all [01:22:09] of us try to to make visible another [01:22:14] field and from there and the language is [01:22:18] extremely important and that's why you [01:22:19] know look at these enormous books these [01:22:23] babies are [01:22:24] producing um because we need language [01:22:28] and the terms we have at a certain point [01:22:33] are not enough so artists are there to [01:22:35] invent other terms philosophers are [01:22:38] there and and and indeed artists artists [01:22:42] there to provoke Us by asking what is [01:22:45] that is that they have put into the [01:22:47] visible for the moment in material forms [01:22:50] that's one of the things I think about [01:22:52] why why the studying of art not I mean [01:22:55] in the manner that you're doing which is [01:22:56] enabling us to encounter it and puzzle [01:22:59] over what it's putting into the [01:23:03] visible which may not be what the artist [01:23:05] knows but I I certainly think yeah it's [01:23:08] collaborative collaborative endless web [01:23:11] of work yeah and one of the things about [01:23:15] that question which could not start even [01:23:19] from the fic or the male gaze because it [01:23:21] starts elsewhere and is very clear in [01:23:24] all the drawing uh work that that [01:23:28] Katherine likes to follow is that is it [01:23:31] is between this and this and this and [01:23:33] that it's not generalized that you have [01:23:36] to follow it you have to enter the line [01:23:38] move on see what happens to you to the [01:23:41] other and how one transforms itself and [01:23:44] like this kind of uh thinking about this [01:23:49] kind of sphere which is you know [01:23:52] pregnant but not with the whole universe [01:23:55] but with whatever it cares for at that [01:23:58] or carries at that moment and think how [01:24:02] words are important because the idea [01:24:05] that for example Earth was Associated to [01:24:08] the maternal right and the maternal was [01:24:12] the thing to reject in psychoanalysis in [01:24:15] order that subject will come the [01:24:17] maternal say the thrash being for just [01:24:21] anything so we could really pollute [01:24:24] whatever nourishes us and with the [01:24:27] matrical we say no you cannot pollute [01:24:30] what nourishes you you have to care for [01:24:33] whatever cares for you and so we have [01:24:36] another kind of possibility to address [01:24:40] ecology not to exploit the land not to [01:24:44] reject it and really pych analysis of [01:24:47] 20th century allowed a massive rejection [01:24:51] yeah of of the maternal and a magic an [01:24:55] annihilation of the [01:24:57] feminine and so we say okay let's not [01:25:00] start from that let's start from the [01:25:02] co-emergence in the matrixial sphere of [01:25:05] what could be taken care of and then [01:25:08] becoming responsible about and [01:25:10] witnessing about and we have a [01:25:14] whole conceptual [01:25:16] universe [01:25:18] that can be [01:25:21] used [01:25:23] thank you very much everybody very [01:25:27] patient thank [01:25:29] [Music] [01:25:29] [Applause] [01:25:45] you