# If You Think Prayer Actually Works, You NEED To See This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hmCgiDOr3g

[00:00] of the 18% of people that say they don't
[00:03] of the 18% of people that say they don't believe in a god, they are almost
[00:05] believe in a god, they are almost certainly going tell according to
[00:07] certainly going tell according to scripture.
[00:08] scripture.
[00:08] Well, so James, the book of James in the Bible, who's actually the um the uh halfb brotherther of Jesus, um he writes a book and he says,
[00:18] "You believe that God is one."
[00:20] He says, "Great. So do the demons."
[00:23] So the point is like if anybody knows and believes in God, it's the demons.
[00:29] It's a Satan, right?
[00:31] So, so what's the difference there?
[00:32] The difference is there is that
[00:35] there's a relational component of when we in in sort of the Christianes Christian terminology when I say Jesus is your Lord and your Savior, what I mean is that he has rescued you.
[00:46] He has saved you from the penalties of sin and death.
[00:48] But then the Lord component is that now you have submitted your life to him in obedience and repentance.
[00:53] Now, repentance is kind of another religious word that maybe is not always fully
[01:01] word that maybe is not always fully understood.
[01:04] Repentance is the changing and understanding of the way you live.
[01:06] You understand that the things that you used to do that are wrong are not the things that are either what you should do or are going to give you fulfillment.
[01:20] And you stop doing those not because God is a cosmic killjoy and he doesn't want you to feel the goodness of those things but because those things are actually harmful to you.
[01:33] They are hurting you and they are creating a separation of the relationship between you and God.
[01:38] There's going to be a very small number of people that actually live in such a way that are fully repented and have accepted the Lord as their savior.
[01:45] Right?
[01:46] There's only rough I think it was 30% of people actually go to church.
[01:49] somewhat frequently and uh the other sort of 56% seldom will never go that they're not really really active in their belief.
[01:57] They probably haven't repented.
[02:00] So it would appear to me that a very small percentage of people are
[02:02] a very small percentage of people are actually qualifying for the kingdom of heaven as it's described in the Bible.
[02:05] The miracle of this is that your salvation is received, not achieved.
[02:11] And so once again, it's it's not about like brownie points.
[02:14] It's not about checking off, you know, I read the Bible as many times.
[02:16] because I went to church as many times.
[02:18] I, you know, I didn't lie.
[02:19] I didn't steal.
[02:21] I didn't cheat.
[02:23] I didn't um because we still exist in this beautiful yet broken world and because we live in a world that is marred by the brokenness of the fall of our first parents, Adam and Eve, making that decision to rebel against God.
[02:26] And because of that, now the the creation itself has been affected.
[02:30] It's not about trying to earn my way into heaven.
[02:33] So is it a very small percentage of people who are actually repenting?
[02:35] Maybe.
[02:36] But what of those what of that percentage is attempt who fully understands?
[02:39] It's interesting the word that we translate as repentance is the
[03:02] that we translate as repentance is the Greek word metaninoia.
[03:04] It means change your mind.
[03:07] And so there's an aspect of it's not just about the doing.
[03:10] It's an understanding.
[03:11] It's a component of I don't want to do these things even when I do them.
[03:16] I I don't I don't want to lie anymore.
[03:19] Like I see the harm that that causes and the brokenness that it creates.
[03:24] And so even if I'm still breaking the law of God, right?
[03:26] So in the book of James that I mentioned, uh there's this part where James says if you break one rule in the law, you it's as if you've broken them all.
[03:39] And I've sometimes used this illustration of it's like you're hanging off a cliff uh on a linked chain, right?
[03:45] If you cut any of those links, you're going to fall, right?
[03:48] It's no longer holding you.
[03:50] That's kind of the the thinking that I think James is getting at when he writes that.
[03:54] So, you reference the original sin, which is Adam and Eve taking the apple.
[03:58] Mhm.
[03:59] Or fruit or the fruit, whatever it might be.
[04:01] God made Adam and Eve.
[04:02] He's omnipotent, omnisient.
[04:02] When he made them, he knew
[04:04] omnisient.
[04:04] When he made them, he knew they were going to take the apple.
[04:05] they were going to take the apple.
[04:05] But he made them anyway.
[04:07] But he made them anyway.
[04:07] So, that sounds like a setup.
[04:09] So, that sounds like a setup.
[04:09] You could read it as a setup.
[04:11] I think more so what's going on I think what what's what's the what strikes me as more amazing is that God did it anyways
[04:15] more amazing is that God did it anyways and he didn't hit the restart button
[04:17] and he didn't hit the restart button
[04:20] and then he knew that when he made them that it would result in this thousands and thousands of year years of people worshiping him
[04:22] and then he knew that when he made them
[04:24] that it would result in this thousands and thousands of year years of people
[04:26] and thousands of year years of people worshiping him
[04:27] worshiping him
[04:28] Mhm.
[04:28] I think you'd think I was a bad person like if I made something knowing that it was going to make a mistake and that mistake would result in people worshiping me for the next forever.
[04:29] I think you'd think I was a bad person
[04:31] like if I made something knowing that it was going to make a mistake and that
[04:32] was going to make a mistake and that mistake would result in people
[04:34] mistake would result in people worshiping me for the next forever.
[04:36] worshiping me for the next forever.
[04:36] Sure.
[04:36] You you would say I did this to get you to worship me.
[04:39] You you would say I did this to get you to worship me.
[04:41] Sure.
[04:41] And to basically make you live in guilt
[04:44] that I create like logically that's like hold like what's wrong with that logically?
[04:47] that I create like logically that's like hold like what's wrong with that
[04:48] hold like what's wrong with that logically?
[04:49] logically?
[04:49] Well, I think I think you could read it like that.
[04:51] Uh I think ultimately and this might sound like a copout to some, but maybe God knows something we don't.
[04:54] like that. Uh I think ultimately and this might sound like a copout to some,
[04:55] this might sound like a copout to some, but maybe God knows something we don't.
[04:57] but maybe God knows something we don't.
[04:58] Yeah, maybe.
[04:58] Yeah.
[04:58] And uh that he has reasons for allowing evil that maybe we don't understand and can't comprehend because he is God.
[05:01] And uh that he has reasons for allowing
[05:03] evil that maybe we don't understand and can't comprehend because he is God.
[05:05] can't comprehend because he is God.
[05:07] There's an interesting thing in both the book of revelation and in one of the letters of Peter where it basically says from uh before the foundation of the world was laid the lamb was slain.
[05:17] So Jesus was crucified that the cross that whole bringing back people in unity and relationship with God via this act of the only innocent person who ever lived being murdered on a cross.
[05:30] Right?
[05:31] a great act of evil accomplishing a lot of good.
[05:34] Once again, not the way I would do it if I was God, right?
[05:38] There's all sorts of things that we think, you know, if I was God, I'd do it like this.
[05:43] Um, thank goodness I'm not God.
[05:44] Uh, I would get a whole lot of things wrong.
[05:46] You wouldn't want to live in that world.
[05:48] But I think what's interesting is that the cross was not a contingency plan.
[05:52] The cross was the plan all the way along.
[05:55] And so God is glorified in that act.
[05:59] And I think part of it is what I was saying before.
[06:01] If God is love, if love is the greatest ethic and the greatest ethic is
[06:07] greatest ethic and the greatest ethic is expressed in the greatest example which is self-sacrifice, then God is actually communicating the greatest ethic in the greatest possible way in what we see in the gospel message of how he accomplishes the unification with his people for the goodness and glory of who he is.
[06:29] And do I understand all the complexities and mysteries that go in conjunction with that?
[06:34] No.
[06:37] But I'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the historical and the philosophical case for the existence of God and then that God specifically being the God that is articulated in the Bible is true.
[06:52] And on that basis, I am willing to submit my life because of both the evidence and because I have actually seen my own life change radically.
[07:03] So you're you're a friend, right?
[07:06] You say like you've seen an actual
[07:08] actual experiential change in that person's life.
[07:10] life.
[07:10] Oh, yeah.
[07:10] No, my so my friend um I talked about him anonymously on here, but he then clipped it, posted on his Instagram, and said, "Stephen's talking about me."
[07:19] Okay.
[07:19] And he's he's like doing some interviews and stuff now.
[07:22] So I feel more comfortable talking about him more publicly.
[07:25] But yeah, my friend who was going through a little bit of a crisis of meaning in his life was living in Dubai in this penthouse apartment, single, kind of alone, remote working, all those kinds of, you know, very individualistic lifestyle, successful in a material sense, all of a sudden turned to Christianity, flew to America, got baptized, and is now Christian.
[07:44] Christian.
[07:44] Yeah.
[07:44] And would I say he is happier than before?
[07:50] 100%.
[07:50] Would I say I am very glad he became Christian?
[07:54] 100%.
[07:54] Would I say that I believe his future's going to be better because he's now a Christian?
[07:57] 100%.
[07:57] 100%.
[07:58] That's a lot of 100%.
[07:59] No, but it's true.
[07:59] It's objectively true.
[08:01] Like I even speak to we've been friends for decades and all of us feel the same way, right?
[08:05] We don't even have to agree with what he believes to think actually he's it's helped him.
[08:07] Well, and in that I don't
[08:10] helped him.
[08:10] Well, and in that I don't think that I think there's an think that I think there's an objectivity to the actual evidence that objectivity to the actual evidence that I evaluate in terms of the historical I evaluate in terms of the historical reliability of the Bible and the reliability of the Bible and the philosophical explanations for meaning philosophical explanations for meaning and purpose and morality, how we ground and purpose and morality, how we ground those, the scientific data of a universe those, the scientific data of a universe that looks like it's fine-tuned and has that looks like it's fine-tuned and has intelligence designed into it.
[08:33] But the subjectivity of how I understand my life and have seen it change radically and and have seen it change radically and what what you see in your friend is not what what you see in your friend is not inconsequential.
[08:42] inconsequential.
[08:43] No, it's not.
[08:43] And it it it testifies to something.
[08:46] It testifies to a hope that even in scripture in 1 Peter 3, scripture in 1 Peter 3, Peter writing to the dispersed church in Peter writing to the dispersed church in the ancient world has this in the the ancient world has this in the context of persecution says, "But in context of persecution says, "But in your hearts rever Christ as Lord.
[09:01] Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that you have, but do so for the hope that you have, but do so with gentleness and respect, keeping a with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience so that those who speak
[09:10] clear conscience so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior
[09:11] maliciously against your good behavior in Christ will be ashamed of their
[09:12] in Christ will be ashamed of their slander.
[09:15] slander." And there's this implication that always be prepared to give an
[09:17] that always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you for an
[09:19] answer to everyone who asks you for an argument for the existence of God. No,
[09:21] argument for the existence of God. No, that's not what he says. He says to give
[09:23] that's not what he says. He says to give the reason for the hope that you have.
[09:25] the reason for the hope that you have. Your friend is communicating a hope that
[09:28] Your friend is communicating a hope that you took notice of. And I think that is
[09:33] you took notice of. And I think that is literally the word to give an answer
[09:35] literally the word to give an answer that we translate as to give an answer,
[09:36] that we translate as to give an answer, defense, or reason in many English Bible
[09:38] defense, or reason in many English Bible translations is the Greek word apologia.
[09:41] translations is the Greek word apologia. to give an apologetic to give a defense
[09:44] to give an apologetic to give a defense and scripturally
[09:46] and scripturally scripture does call us to love the Lord
[09:49] scripture does call us to love the Lord our God with all of our mind and I think
[09:51] our God with all of our mind and I think there's an aspect of God if I my friend
[09:53] there's an aspect of God if I my friend Tim Barnett works for actually stand to
[09:55] Tim Barnett works for actually stand to reason which is Greg Kok's organization
[09:57] reason which is Greg Kok's organization you had Greg Greg in in in your uh panel
[10:00] you had Greg Greg in in in your uh panel discussion recently my friend Tim says
[10:02] discussion recently my friend Tim says if you want to know the mind of God you
[10:03] if you want to know the mind of God you better start by using your own and so in
[10:06] better start by using your own and so in that way I think we can worship God
[10:08] that way I think we can worship God through that you know there's a
[10:09] through that you know there's a component of God has endowed us with
[10:12] component of God has endowed us with intelligence and we can use that to intelligence and we can use that to speak to the things that he has actually created and the evidence for that.
[10:22] But at the exact same time the hope of the life changed of to use you know Jesus's own language in John 3 being born again I think also communicates something that is genuinely profound.
[10:39] I agree and I I would assert that maybe if he had converted to pretty much any of the major religions, he would have experienced the same transformative upside.
[10:50] And when you look at people that do convert to other religions outside of Christianity, they do experience a greater sense of meaning and community and all the things that come with it that gives them that sense of belonging and maybe calms their anxieties and their worries and their nihilism to a point where they can live a bit more of a content life.
[11:08] So is it is that evidence of Christianity or is that just evidence that we're all in search of meaning in a world that's increasingly nihilistic and individualistic and says
[11:13] nihilistic and individualistic and says that there's nothing other than as you say like time space matter etc.
[11:18] No that's a great point.
[11:19] I don't think it's arbitrary.
[11:22] I think you know there's an aspect of religiosity that is always going to be a net positive for society no matter what that religion is because I think it's going to give an aspect of purpose and identity to people.
[11:33] At the exact same time, I don't think it's just the subjective point of view.
[11:35] Right?
[11:38] This is why I think it's very dangerous when I go out.
[11:40] So, I used to work for a a ministry organization that worked on university campuses and we would go and we would talk with students and uh I too many times to count would hear a student ask another student, why do you believe in Christianity?
[11:58] And they would then proceed in articulating how they became a Christian.
[12:00] Mhm.
[12:01] Well, that's not the answer, right?
[12:03] That's not the actually the question they asked.
[12:04] They asked, "Why do you believe it's true?"
[12:06] And you answered with how you kind of got into this group.
[12:08] If they had ran into a Buddhist,
[12:15] group. If they had ran into a Buddhist, they said, "Why do you believe Buddhism?
[12:17] they said, "Why do you believe Buddhism is true?" and you say, you know, well, I
[12:18] just met these really great people on campus and they invited me over for, you
[12:19] know, karma discussions and pizza and and it's radically changed my life and
[12:21] I, you know, follow the noble truths and the the the path of the Buddha and it
[12:23] it's changed my life when you give them that story.
[12:25] Now, I don't I don't want people to hear me saying that giving your testimony is not
[12:28] a good thing to do. I just think there's a time and a place where it could have
[12:30] been any situation. It sounds convenient. You could have run into a
[12:32] Muslim or a Mormon or a Buddhist or a Hindu and just stumbled into those
[12:34] conversations. And that's where I think answering why I believe it's true
[12:36] is more than just that. It's no less than that, but it's more than that
[12:39] because I believe that the multivalent argument for the truthfulness of the
[12:41] capital T of Christianity has a
[13:15] capital T of Christianity has a historical backing and a philosophical backing and a scientific backing and psychological backing and all of those things.
[13:20] And I bet your friend would say it, too.
[13:22] Oh, yeah.
[13:23] I bet he would.
[13:23] Yeah.
[13:27] And in one sense, my goal is to adhere to truth with a capital T even above my allegiance to Jesus.
[13:32] Now, I believe Jesus is the truth with a capital T.
[13:34] So, I I don't think that there's a conflict of interest there.
[13:36] But I I want to follow what's true because even if it's a convenient lie, it's still a lie and I don't want to live my life for a lie.
[13:49] New year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about their goals, fresh starts, and new habits.
[13:55] But the reality is that most people carry the same ideas they had last year into the new year.
[13:59] I'm guilty of that, too.
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[15:59] And on that point, one of the things that really convinced me when I was a uh when I was going through my little atheism phase was this this geography argument, which I'm sure you've heard a million times.
[16:06] If I'd been born in Saudi Arabia, I'd probably be a Muslim.
[16:10] If I'd been born in is India, I'd probably be Hindu.
[16:15] So it seems like the religion you believe entirely depends on where you were born,
[16:17] were born, not on necessarily what is true.
[16:20] And therefore, if we go back to this point about hell, I remember thinking at like 19 years old, oh my god, like actually where you're born is determining whether you go to this fiery eternal suffering or not.
[16:30] And that's not fair.
[16:33] So this must all be not true.
[16:33] Yeah.
[16:35] I mean, I was born in Pakistan.
[16:37] So I was born in a majority Muslim country and I'm not a Muslim.
[16:39] Now, you could argue my parents weren't Muslims, but I know tons of people who were.
[16:43] My colleague Steve, who is our Alberta director at Apologetics Canada, he was born in Korea and went to a school setting that was Buddhist.
[16:52] But, but I mean, the numbers are the numbers like you're like 95% I don't know what the numbers are, but I know it's over 90% likely to be the religion of that territory if you take a on a religion at all um just by where you were born.
[17:03] And that doesn't fit.
[17:04] I remember thinking very clearly at 19 years old, this doesn't feel fair.
[17:08] Sure.
[17:10] as a way to determine who gets into hell or heaven, which is like my parents and why they they conceived me or whatever.
[17:13] Sure.
[17:15] I mean, in one sense, you don't want fair because fair is you going to hell.
[17:15] Um, and the gospel message is not
[17:18] Hell. Um, and the gospel message is not fair, right?
[17:20] So, so the actual gospel message is not about fairness because fairness is I get the just penalty for what I do.
[17:29] Right? And that's where the whole concept of mercy and grace are so they're so central to the Christian message.
[17:36] Is Buddhism and Hinduism are based on fairness solely based on fairness right the cycle of samsara of life death birth and rebirth the karmic cycles that's fair uh in one sense what god does when he intervenes in humanity when he incarnates becomes flesh steps into humanity and actually experiences pain and hurt and suffering and death in a way that makes the God of the Bible unique and actually experiential to what you and I go through when we have those struggles and doubts.
[18:13] He then takes on the punishment that we deserve. And the fairness
[18:19] And the fairness is not actually what is then given.
[18:24] is not actually what is then given because the fairness is Wes Huff.
[18:27] because the fairness is Wes Huff.
[18:29] Wes Huff getting what he actually deserves for the weight and the penalty of his cosmic rebellion.
[18:31] getting what he actually deserves for the weight and the penalty of his cosmic rebellion.
[18:34] the weight and the penalty of his cosmic rebellion in choosing a life that is is against and away from God.
[18:35] rebellion in choosing a life that is is against and away from God.
[18:38] in choosing a life that is is against and away from God.
[18:41] and away from God. I'm unclear.
[18:41] Okay.
[18:43] So, if I was if I had Moroccan parents, my probability of being Muslim is like 99%.
[18:45] my probability of being Muslim is like 99%.
[18:46] 99%.
[18:46] Sure.
[18:48] Um, and if I was born in Morocco, that would that would kind of set me up to go to hell theoretically.
[18:50] would that would kind of set me up to go to hell theoretically.
[18:52] to hell theoretically.
[18:55] Yes. In so far as you're either you're taking on your sin.
[18:57] taking on your sin.
[18:57] Yeah.
[19:00] And that's the punishment. Or Christ is taking on your sin and then you are then covered in his intercession.
[19:06] taking on your sin and then you are then covered in his intercession.
[19:09] covered in his intercession.
[19:11] Okay. But it's not about believing or not believing.
[19:12] not believing.
[19:14] Yeah. Which you explained earlier. Yeah.
[19:15] Which was which was useful for me because that that that gave me a new understanding that I didn't have previously.
[19:17] because that that that gave me a new understanding that I didn't have previously.
[19:18] understanding that I didn't have previously.
[19:19] Previously.
[19:21] Um the other thing I think a lot about I thought a lot about was prayer.
[19:22] So this was really compelling to me when I was younger.
[19:23] Which was you know I would I would hear these stories of horrific things that had happened in the world.
[19:27] When you think about what happened in Nazi Germany.
[19:30] And I'd hear that the people there were you know very religious and praying and it didn't seem to change the odds of their fate.
[19:34] M.
[19:36] And when you look at hospital stats of Christians versus non-Christians, generally praying doesn't seem to be impacting outcome.
[19:44] So therefore, I concluded as like a 19-year-old that maybe prayer doesn't work and why are people doing it when it doesn't seem to historically have worked?
[19:52] What is the what is your perspective?
[19:55] Does praying work?
[19:57] If if my child is sick and I start praying, is is that going to help?
[20:00] I mean, it also kind of begs the question of what we think prayer is.
[20:05] Is prayer incantations to plate God?
[20:09] What does that mean?
[20:11] Like is God a genie?
[20:12] Right. So I say the right prayers and uh he gives me what I what I want.
[20:16] Yeah.
[20:17] Um now there are some religious systems
[20:20] >> Um now there are some religious systems that that is kind of what prayer is is
[20:22] that that is kind of what prayer is is is you know that's all the agricultural
[20:24] is you know that's all the agricultural deities of the ancient near east. like
[20:26] deities of the ancient near east. like you you say the right things and you
[20:28] you you say the right things and you give the right sacrifices and the the
[20:30] give the right sacrifices and the the the hope is that you know the gods would
[20:33] the hope is that you know the gods would accept that and then they then you know
[20:36] accept that and then they then you know in the reciprocal nature of that they
[20:38] in the reciprocal nature of that they give you good crops. I think prayer in
[20:41] give you good crops. I think prayer in Christianity is a give and take in that
[20:43] Christianity is a give and take in that it's a relational thing. It's God
[20:46] it's a relational thing. It's God desiring
[20:47] desiring to have communication with you. If you
[20:51] to have communication with you. If you read the psalms, a lot of which are
[20:52] read the psalms, a lot of which are prayers, uh even you know, I mentioned
[20:54] prayers, uh even you know, I mentioned the lament psalms, like it's David or
[20:56] the lament psalms, like it's David or whoever the psalmist coming to God and
[20:59] whoever the psalmist coming to God and saying, "I don't get it. I'm hurting.
[21:01] saying, "I don't get it. I'm hurting. I'm broken. I'm alone. I don't feel
[21:03] I'm broken. I'm alone. I don't feel you." There is an aspect of the
[21:06] you." There is an aspect of the relational component of prayer. Now,
[21:08] relational component of prayer. Now, prayer is not just that, right? prayer
[21:11] prayer is not just that, right? prayer is, you know, asking is is supplications
[21:14] is, you know, asking is is supplications is is
[21:17] is is committing your desires to God because
[21:19] committing your desires to God because you believe that God can actually work
[21:21] you believe that God can actually work in the universe and do things.
[21:22] in the universe and do things. >> And that's kind of what the Bible the
[21:24] >> And that's kind of what the Bible the Bible says. It says, "Pour out your
[21:25] Bible says. It says, "Pour out your hearts to him. Call him and and call to
[21:27] hearts to him. Call him and and call to me and I will answer you in in
[21:28] me and I will answer you in in Jeremiah."
[21:30] Jeremiah." >> And it also says, "Ask and it will be
[21:33] >> And it also says, "Ask and it will be given to you in Matthew."
[21:34] given to you in Matthew." >> Yeah. Seek and you will find. Knock and
[21:36] >> Yeah. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened unto you. I
[21:37] the door will be opened unto you. I mean, part of those is that the the
[21:39] mean, part of those is that the the there's a little bit of a trickiness in
[21:41] there's a little bit of a trickiness in quote mining because the context could
[21:43] quote mining because the context could mean prayer. The context could mean, you
[21:45] mean prayer. The context could mean, you know, the the salvific act of God, you
[21:48] know, the the salvific act of God, you know, uh, knock and the door shall be
[21:50] know, uh, knock and the door shall be opened unto you. Like, if if you're
[21:51] opened unto you. Like, if if you're actually seeking God and you're doing
[21:54] actually seeking God and you're doing that with an open heart and an open
[21:56] that with an open heart and an open mind, God is going to say, you know,
[21:58] mind, God is going to say, you know, yes, I'm I'm entering into your life.
[22:00] yes, I'm I'm entering into your life. I'm doing I'm revealing myself to you.
[22:03] I'm doing I'm revealing myself to you. Now, God can answer yes. God can answer
[22:05] Now, God can answer yes. God can answer no. and God can answer weight. Those are
[22:08] no. and God can answer weight. Those are all answers to prayer.
[22:09] all answers to prayer. >> If you love the Diver CEO brand and you
[22:11] >> If you love the Diver CEO brand and you watch this channel, please do me a huge
[22:13] watch this channel, please do me a huge favor. Become part of the 15% of the
[22:16] favor. Become part of the 15% of the viewers on this channel that have hit
[22:18] viewers on this channel that have hit the subscribe button. It helps us
[22:19] the subscribe button. It helps us tremendously and the bigger the channel
[22:21] tremendously and the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests.