# How I Got Prince Andrew To Do THAT Interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTw4pNEqWew

[00:00] Oh my god.
[00:04] Did the Duke of York just say he has an alibi at Pizza Express in Woking?
[00:08] Did he just mention that he has a medical condition where he doesn't swear?
[00:12] Did he just talk about being aroused in a kind of princely way?
[00:15] Did he just say he doesn't regret being friends with someone who's a convicted pedophile?
[00:20] What?
[00:21] Hello and welcome to Crisis of Crisis, the podcast that shows you how to navigate life's toughest moments.
[00:25] I'm Andy Coulson and my guest today is Sam Mallister.
[00:29] For over a decade at BBC News Night, Sam secured interviews that others just couldn't.
[00:33] President Bill Clinton, Elon Musk, Stormmy Daniels, and many, many others.
[00:36] But it was one conversation in 2019 that would ultimately change the course of Sam's life.
[00:41] After 6 months of negotiation, she convinced Prince Andrew to be interviewed by Emily Mateless.
[00:47] And in that interview, he discussed his ties to Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:51] Uh the interview became a global news event, and it resulted, of course, in Andrew stepping back from royal duties.
[00:56] It was one of the most significant moments in modern British journalism.
[01:00] And of course, we
[01:02] know what followed.
[01:03] It is not relevant, you know, that you went to speak to him in person.
[01:07] It is not relevant uh whether or not you were in a Pizza Express in Woking.
[01:11] It really doesn't feel relevant to a normal person whether you were sweating or not.
[01:15] When you're accused of raping someone, these are all red herrings.
[01:19] and every red herring um became more and more kind of like suffocating in terms of being in the room listening to those offkey, off-kilter bad answers.
[01:31] Yet Sam's central role in this piece of history was underplayed, the invisible work largely uh of a producer.
[01:38] Not long after Sam left the BBC to take a gamble and write a book, and it paid off.
[01:44] Her brilliant memoir, Scoops, became a bestseller and a Netflix film.
[01:49] You walk away from a job thinking you might end up in penury.
[01:53] Could it be a terrible mistake?
[01:54] Should you have taken that job with Piers Morgan?
[01:55] And now here you are with 130 people on payroll, Billy Piper dressed in your, you know, kind of cheapest chips
[02:02] outfit, strutting, pretending to be you.
[02:04] in a blonde wig and huge sunglasses that you used to wear every day at the office.
[02:07] and people used to take the Mickey out of you for.
[02:09] And wow.
[02:13] I mean, if you're not going to cry at that, you know, you must have a heart of stone.
[02:16] And today, Sam, who before the BBC worked as a criminal barrista, is a visiting senior fellow teaching negotiation at the London School of Economics and is a sought-after keynote speaker.
[02:26] What fascinates me, among other things, is just how Sam built something so many people struggle with.
[02:31] the ability to make powerful people trust her, like her, and respect her enough to say yes when they said no to everyone else.
[02:38] Sam is a master not of manipulation but of trust building and she is now one of Britain's most compelling storytellers on the subjects of persuasion, power and resilience.
[02:48] Sam Mallister, welcome to Crisis.
[02:51] What crisis and how are you?
[02:54] I'm very good. Thank you for the very nice introduction.
[02:57] Well, it's great to have you with us, Sam.
[02:58] Thanks for joining us. Um, let's um
[03:02] Let's start with that sort of moment of risk that I touched on in that intro there of what I suppose was professional crisis.
[03:08] July 2021, you took voluntary redundancy from the from the BBC after 17 years.
[03:14] Um, you're a single mother.
[03:16] You're in the middle of the pandemic.
[03:18] You're suffering, I think, actually, from a pretty serious bout of COVID.
[03:22] Uh, and you decided to give it all up, you know, that pension, that security, that steady income to write your book.
[03:28] You threw the dice as you uh as you put it.
[03:30] Um, just sort of take me to that moment.
[03:33] Take me to the decision making uh and what led to it.
[03:38] Yeah, absolutely.
[03:40] I mean, I never want to sound like a sort of bitter ex-girlfriend when it comes to the BBC.
[03:44] It was obviously a corporation I loved.
[03:46] I loved working there.
[03:48] I had some amazing opportunities opportunities and some amazing colleagues.
[03:52] So, just to preface it by saying I don't want to just kind of, you know, slag off what was an incredible professional and personal journey with extraordinary people and amazing experiences.
[04:02] However, I wasn't really quite as associated with the work that I'd done on this interview.
[04:07] um as I wanted to be.
[04:10] And so you really have a decision to make.
[04:11] The decision you make as someone like myself who's a pragmatist and who doesn't like to whine or [ __ ] or be difficult is you suck it up and you move on or you do something.
[04:21] So those to me were the decisions that I needed to make.
[04:25] Am I going to just go, do you know what?
[04:27] This is just how the media works.
[04:29] I am just a junior producer.
[04:31] You know, it's not that big a deal not to have my name attached to it that much.
[04:34] I know what I did. it's fine or will I say actually this does matter to me and so I'm going to take proactive steps to do something about it.
[04:45] So clearly I chose the latter and I decided I wanted to write a book.
[04:50] I didn't think particularly anyone would want to read it other than my mom.
[04:53] Uh she kindly bought 10 copies.
[04:55] Thanks mom.
[04:58] But it was really just more I just wanted to put my name on it.
[05:01] not in a bitter way, just in
[05:03] a sort of this was a big deal.
[05:05] And I just wanted people to know that I had been part of it, even if it was just 10 people.
[05:09] So I went to the BEB and I kind of felt out the proposition of writing a book and kind of like talking about the interviews I'd worked on over the years and it became apparent quite quickly that that probably was not going to be an option that was compatible with me continuing working there.
[05:25] So now I have a new decision and and am I going to throw the dice?
[05:31] So I'm a nobody with no book agent, with no book deal, with no book proposal and a single income, it's a big risk.
[05:40] But if I don't take that risk, if I don't try and find a book agent, a book deal, write a book, take the risk, will I always regret it?
[05:48] I thought I would.
[05:51] So lucky to get a book agent.
[05:54] lucky to get a book deal, lucky to get voluntary redundancy, and super lucky to get a little bit of cash from the publishers.
[06:00] And so I leapt.
[06:05] What about the anxiety though of of of the the idea of it not working out, right?
[06:11] And as you say, on balance, there was no there wasn't there wasn't clear evidence that it was going to go the go the way it went, you know.
[06:17] How did you how did you manage that sort of that decision-m?
[06:23] You know what what what was what was the what was the sort of balance in your mind of of risk versus reward and how did you how did you kind of get to the point of of taking the plunge?
[06:35] Yeah.
[06:35] Yeah.
[06:35] So, I had a very pragmatic view on it and my poor mom who used to listen to me pontificate about taking this risk.
[06:41] You know, I talked about ducks in a row and if my mom Neta had a quid for every time I said that phrase, she would be worth more than Elon Musk.
[06:48] But I had literally in notes on my iPhone, other phones are available of course, a list of three outcomes.
[06:56] Outcome one being an optimistic one, a mid one, and then a depressing one where it all went wrong.
[07:01] And you know, the optimistic outcome was I get the book deal, I get the voluntary redundancy
[07:07] because that was actually not certain.
[07:10] Ironically, I was deemed business essential.
[07:12] So, I couldn't get voluntary redundancy um when everyone else was walking away with with huge huge settlements.
[07:19] And I didn't I didn't walk away with a huge settlement, but if I got that, that was life-changing money for me, right?
[07:25] And then it was like, you know, getting a speaking agent, getting a bit of speaking income.
[07:29] What did like an optimistic outcome look like?
[07:34] And then I had what does a pessimistic outcome look like?
[07:36] And to be brutally honest, what it looked like was I could survive for two years without taking up a traditional media role again.
[07:44] If I got to the end of that two years and this had not panned out, at least I'd given it a shot.
[07:50] And if it did pan out, then I had no clue what the future would really look like other than book deal, possibly more speaking and other options, TBC.
[07:58] So there was a lot of volatility, but I knew I had enough income to survive for
[08:07] 2 years, me and my son, keeping the lights on, keeping my son fed, um not living a bougie lifestyle, no holidays, no cars, that's not my lifestyle at all.
[08:17] And I thought, well, that's okay.
[08:19] We're not going to be in penury but it was still a big risk particularly with a single income.
[08:24] Yeah.
[08:24] Um let's go back a bit Sam because I I I I think to understand how you're able to make the decision in that moment you know I I think there are clues in uh you know early earlier in your life because it's certainly not this the first time that you'd rolled the dice professionally.
[08:42] Um um but let's let's just go a a little bit further back because I'm I'm interested to understand, you know, kind of how that decision- making or how how you were able to get to the point of of making that decision, what kind of came before.
[08:56] Um you've said you've said before that, you know, that that colleagues at the BBC had remarked that you weren't very BBC.
[09:03] Um uh uh tell tell us a bit about your childhood then and the and and the
[09:09] path actually that led that led you first to to law.
[09:11] Just give us a just give us a flavor of what came before.
[09:16] Yeah, absolutely.
[09:16] I think probably not very BBC.
[09:17] I don't whether it was meant as an insult or a compliment.
[09:19] Is it neutral?
[09:21] I'm not sure.
[09:22] Probably an insult.
[09:22] Well, there's a debate to be had these days whether or not it's it's necessarily seen as a negative.
[09:27] It's a compliment.
[09:27] Yeah, exactly.
[09:27] I think just really that my background was very different to lots of my colleagues.
[09:34] And look, I'm not saying I grew up on a council estate and I was living in poverty, but my parents left school at 14.
[09:41] My mom had been brought up on a council estate, East End market people.
[09:46] My dad was kind of like a, you know, lower middle class guy.
[09:47] Um, he left school at 142.
[09:50] He was a serial entrepreneur.
[09:50] And so I grew up with two parents who actually were not working by the time I was born, but they had worked my dad for 30ome years before I was born and my mom since she was 14 as well.
[10:02] So by the time I arrived they basically sold their business and we then became
[10:10] instead of you know market people.
[10:13] suddenly my mom and dad are living in.
[10:15] Gernzie in the aisle of man sort of like.
[10:17] you know with a BMW and this sort of bougie weird island lifestyle.
[10:19] So I had this wonderful mix in a sense of the privilege of financial security from the hard work my parents had done.
[10:28] but with that really kind of like pervasive understanding that money comes and goes.
[10:33] you know they had been in poverty they understood.
[10:38] and my mom's still with us thank god they understood what that was.
[10:40] so I had a very healthy upbringing and relationship with money in the sense that they would tell me you know you need to like yourself and get education.
[10:49] Because money comes and goes with money but also with work.
[10:55] 100%.
[10:56] The work ethic was very alive in your the work ethic.
[11:00] Exactly.
[11:02] And ironically for parents who didn't work uh they had such a hugely strong work ethic and that was put into me very early and if there was an emergency of course they would.
[11:12] Support me but it was clear to me that I wanted to be financially independent as soon as I could be given you know that I'd been a burden on them as any child is on their parents.
[11:20] As we both know cuz we have kids.
[11:22] Yes, indeed.
[11:23] So at university, you know, to get to university was such an achievement first in my family.
[11:30] So already I feel like queen of the world.
[11:32] And I think that's really the key to my resilience and happiness is that things that other people take for granted going to university, you know, getting their first bit of income, like having the privilege of a university education, to me, they were a really big deal.
[11:47] So I already felt like an absolute winner in just the education that I achieved.
[11:52] Yeah.
[11:52] And then I'm at university.
[11:56] Uh you know I'm doing debating and all this kind of stuff.
[11:58] I love an argument, love public speaking.
[11:59] And at the end of that period I did not know what to do with my life.
[12:06] And I'd watched all these law programs.
[12:08] I'd never met a lawyer but I'd seen a lot of them on the telly.
[12:10] And it looked
[12:12] quite fun.
[12:14] you know, Ali Mciel, you know, great outfits, great dating, bit of intellect along the way.
[12:16] It was really fun.
[12:17] And I just kind of thought, well, that seems like an interesting thing, but I didn't realize you could do it postgraduate.
[12:24] And uh one of the other kids on the on the course, he was doing post-graduate law where you do three years in nine months.
[12:32] He mentioned this to me.
[12:34] I thought, "Oh, that sounds great.
[12:35] I didn't realize I messed up and did an English degree.
[12:37] I could still be a lawyer.
[12:39] And he's like, "Well, I don't think people like you would get on the course."
[12:43] And that is not a red rag to a bull.
[12:45] It doesn't make me want to do it more, but I'm like, I disagree.
[12:48] Let's give it a shot.
[12:50] So, I applied the next day and I and I got on that course and I did become a barristister, which I felt was a massive achievement.
[12:57] And I practiced only for two years.
[12:59] But it was a dream come true to have the opportunity to have gone from my grandma working on the market who left school at 13, my mom super clever but had to leave school to get a job to me like practicing in a court of law.
[13:14] Yeah.
[13:16] So the social mobility and the achievement that was personal was so huge to me in comparison to the kids around me.
[13:22] And that foundation of confidence and pride I suppose makes me um as resilient and happy as I am despite the the difficulties that sometimes I face professionally and personally.
[13:33] Yeah.
[13:35] And so the the the role as a as as a barristister, a a stunning achievement as you say, but over time became very stressful uh and and and professionally very difficult for you.
[13:46] Just talk us just talk us through that.
[13:48] Tell us what happened.
[13:49] Yeah, I've got to be honest, I hated it.
[13:51] Uh I hated it with a visceral passion.
[13:53] It was just not the right fit.
[13:55] But I was thrilled to have tried it.
[13:57] I did it for two years.
[13:59] It's a massive privilege to hold someone's liberty in your hands.
[14:01] you know, people are in their darkest moments of crisis and they're stuck with some 25-year-old, you know, and you're a you're a defense barristister dealing with people who are absolutely plunged into the, you know, their lives are unraveling.
[14:14] Exactly.
[14:14] Exactly.
[14:14] I know you understand, right?
[14:17] And to be in the privileged position of having someone's future, their, you know, their liberty, their life, their family, everything in your hands, it's an incredible responsibility and it's a very burdensome one when you're 25 years old and you take it very seriously and you're a fish out of water in the company that you're keeping.
[14:39] M so the combination really of the the burden um and I don't want to sound like a big narcissist but you're only 25 26 you know it's a it's a very big burden on someone like me who takes it so seriously.
[14:53] So, I got to the stage where despite my love for the clients, I loved being with clients, despite my love for the clients, and I had a good stream of work, you know, my hair was falling out.
[15:04] Um, I had insomnia.
[15:04] I was having, I suppose, what we would now call panic attacks, but I didn't know what they were, but I just had this constant sort of feeling of anxiety.
[15:12] Um, and I knew
[15:15] that couldn't continue because I can't do that for 40 years, you know?
[15:19] I'm going to I'm going to drop dead.
[15:21] I mean it felt it felt like some kind of impossible thing to continue.
[15:26] So what was what was the root of the anxiety Sam?
[15:27] I mean obviously it's a job that you were you know in in a way you loved but but but but you were also struggling with.
[15:35] So what was the what was the struggle?
[15:39] The struggle was not being able to do a good job.
[15:42] I I'd put it this way.
[15:44] It's a bit like someone starts medical school and on day one they're asked to perform neurosurgery.
[15:50] I felt that the space between what we had been taught and then we're on our feet even in a magistrate's court and it's quite a simple crime you know that is someone's criminal record like it's a responsibility they bear for life if you mess up.
[16:03] and so the thing I found hard one of my colleagues said I took it too seriously and he had a point but I couldn't dissociate myself from how serious I felt the job was you know so I was working seven days a week there wasn't
[16:16] much money coming in um I was basically you know up every night.
[16:19] Every morning I was anxious about what the case was going to be because you often only got it a couple of hours before and you might have someone's entire life in your hands with 30 minutes of prep.
[16:28] I could not live with that and that made me ineffective for the job.
[16:35] It made me passionate about it, sure, but it meant I wasn't the right match because I couldn't live with a glib treatment of something so serious and I was illquipped um being so young and with so little experience to take on the incredible responsibility and burden and and it started to break me.
[16:54] So, I had to walk away.
[16:56] Brave decision though.
[16:58] Can't have been can't have been straightforward.
[17:00] I mean, we've talked about the decision that came later.
[17:03] Here's a here's here's another much earlier in your life.
[17:04] You're 25 years old, just getting started in life, and you're and you're you're self-aware enough.
[17:12] Obviously, it's manifesting in a pretty visceral way.
[17:13] Um, clearly
[17:18] something had to change, but to say,
[17:20] No, I'm going to this is it.
[17:22] I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to change direction completely.
[17:26] Quite brave.
[17:27] Yeah.
[17:27] I I I have a certain fearlessness or full hardiness.
[17:31] I mean, it's, you know, it's the side of the same coin, right?
[17:34] one side is kind of brave and the other side is foolish.
[17:35] I had no plan.
[17:38] It wasn't like the later decision where I had a really good plan, you know, when I was like 40some.
[17:44] This was a young woman with zero plan and zero source of income.
[17:47] I just knew I couldn't go another day.
[17:50] I literally within 24 hours I walked out.
[17:53] And so it was Yeah, it was hard to begin with.
[17:57] I was sitting on my sofa just thinking well you know gez like what now?
[18:01] And there was no what now.
[18:04] I had I had nothing in place.
[18:06] So I was just kind of like you know struggling around looking for income.
[18:09] Some friends were doing some teaching and public speaking.
[18:11] I ended up in some training session in Cuddon and then I was randomly in schools teaching
[18:19] kids uh who really didn't want to be there how to do public speaking and then at the end of that I did some work experience with a friend at the BBC which led to everything that followed
[18:31] but that was probably like a year in right
[18:34] um so there was a year of quite hand-to-mouth and everyone saying what not my parents to be clear who was 100% supportive
[18:43] Happiness was the only thing that they were looking for for me
[18:47] They didn't want me to be unhappy
[18:49] But everyone else, you know, what have you done
[18:50] It was so high status, wasting that education, all of that
[18:53] So, you have to really drown that chatter out and just concentrate on getting enough income to keep the lights on and then trying to work out what the hell are you going to do with the rest of your life
[19:05] So, this opportunity comes with the BBC
[19:09] Yes
[19:09] Was that was that a sort of switch that flipped on
[19:11] I mean, or was that a slow build towards ah hang on a second, I know exactly what what I can do here
[19:18] I know exactly what my role could be here
[19:20] Or did you just sort of fall in love with it?
[19:23] A bit a bit of both to be honest.
[19:25] I mean, to be brutally honest, when I first started working, I worked on Law and Action, an amazing program on Radio 4 and I just did two days work experience, but I treat any work experience or interaction with any corporation like it's a job interview.
[19:40] So I kind of like you know was on very good behavior for 48 hours and none of them were lawyers but what they were were an incredibly intellectually like adept, clever, interesting, agile uh thoughtful group of people
[19:56] and having gone from this very high octane environment where lives were on the line to be somewhere where you know you might have a 15-minute conversation about the role of the Supreme Court or a House of Lords judgment or a meeting, you know, kind of like pontificating about the future of, you know, kind of legislation in the house in housing or something.
[20:16] It felt like, oh my gosh, what a relief.
[20:19] And it felt like the kind
[20:22] of place where I could learn and grow.
[20:25] So, I enjoyed the lack of fear and the
[20:29] lack of terror. And, you know, my mom
[20:32] always says, "No babies are dead." I
[20:33] mean, in broadcasting, I never really
[20:35] took it as seriously as some of my
[20:36] colleagues. you know, as long as you're
[20:37] not getting sued. Really, we're not
[20:39] curing cancer, you know, we're not kind
[20:41] of like splitting the atom, no babies
[20:43] are dead. So, I just really enjoyed the
[20:46] process of learning stuff about places I
[20:48] didn't know anything about because my
[20:49] education was not as, you know, kind of
[20:51] posh as lots of the people I was working
[20:53] with. And I kind of I just really loved
[20:56] the vibe. And so, you know, I just tried
[20:58] to stay and six weeks became six months.
[21:01] And so, it continued. But it was just a
[21:03] feeling of peace that I hadn't had after
[21:07] all that chaos. And that was the feeling
[21:09] I was chasing.
[21:10] Yeah. And you recognize what you could
[21:13] bring to it all.
[21:14] Right. You you understood in those in
[21:17] those rooms that you found yourself in
[21:19] with, you know, I suspect a fair few
[21:21] egos, let's put more kindly, people with
[21:24] an awful lot of experience.
[21:26] Yes.
[21:26] You worked out, hang on, I can be
[21:28] properly useful here. Was there also a
[21:31] bit of kind of imposter syndrome at that
[21:34] stage as well? Were you also trying to
[21:36] convince yourself I can do this? I'm
[21:37] capable of this. This is Was there were
[21:40] there doubts?
[21:41] No. I've got to be honest, no. I
[21:43] remember a colleague saying to me, it
[21:44] was the first time I'd heard of imposter
[21:45] syndrome. And I hope you'll forgive me
[21:47] because I know it's a massive industry,
[21:48] but I think it's mostly a croc.
[21:50] And I remember her saying to me, "Oh,
[21:51] you must feel like, you know, an
[21:52] imposter, but don't don't feel like an
[21:54] imposter. You know, you you you're here
[21:55] on merit. You deserve to be here." And I
[21:57] was like, "Yeah, babe. I know." Like
[22:00] I think that's that's the antithesis of
[22:02] imposter syndrome when you have got
[22:04] somewhere on merit.
[22:06] Yeah.
[22:06] And you've worked your butt off and you
[22:08] know the price of an education or you
[22:10] know the opportunity to sit in a in a
[22:13] room with people pontificating about the
[22:15] future of the Middle East. I took it all
[22:18] with kind of like a pinch of salt. I
[22:19] don't take myself seriously despite
[22:21] appearances. I do not have an ego at
[22:24] all. I have a lot of confidence. Um so I
[22:26] never saw myself as an imposter. Sure, I
[22:29] didn't have any journalistic training.
[22:31] Sure, I'd not been formally taught, but
[22:33] I'm a quick learner. I had to learn how
[22:35] to edit and record. Um, I didn't think
[22:38] that learning these things put me at a
[22:41] huge disadvantage from the people around
[22:43] me. I was a bit rubbish at it to begin
[22:45] with, but, you know, I was learning and
[22:47] I was getting there and my pay and, you
[22:49] know, my kind of like juniority
[22:51] reflected my lack of experience on that
[22:52] front. I was willing to put in the time
[22:54] to learn, but I never felt like an
[22:56] imposter. Um, and I think that it's an
[22:59] unhelpful description for most people
[23:01] because it creates an extra layer of
[23:04] distance from the question which is am I
[23:07] here on merit? Did I work hard? And I
[23:11] could answer yes to both those
[23:12] questions. So I felt I was less
[23:14] experienced but I never felt that I
[23:16] didn't deserve to be there.
[23:18] I like that. you know it is you know
[23:21] where's where's the positivity I suppose
[23:23] and certainly not in your case but where
[23:24] is the positivity in sort of the
[23:26] discussion around imposter syndrome
[23:30] you know is it something that should be
[23:31] looked at and talked about in a
[23:33] different way
[23:34] yeah I'm not a fan I have to be honest
[23:36] and I was actually thinking about
[23:37] writing a book about it as my next book
[23:39] I just you know when you find out how it
[23:41] started it was two female psychologists
[23:43] and they had a lot of women particularly
[23:45] coming in you know kind of like
[23:46] presenting with this I don't think I
[23:49] deserve to have this job. Now, had they
[23:51] come to me as an unqualified non-
[23:53] psychologist, I would have said,
[23:55] "Listen, mate, like you've worked your
[23:56] ads off. You deserve to be there. Come
[23:58] on, you know, put yourself together and
[24:00] go out there and, you know, chase your
[24:02] dream." But instead this massive
[24:04] industry and this massive psychological
[24:06] barrier has been created where everyone
[24:09] understandably who's feeling insecure
[24:11] worried about their position which most
[24:13] people do some of the time have now got
[24:16] this kind of you know smorggas board of
[24:19] conversation around being an imposter
[24:21] and I think most of the time it's either
[24:23] a little bit fake cuz they know they're
[24:25] really good but they want to sound that
[24:27] they kind of have humility
[24:28] there's a bit of that
[24:29] bit of that no I'm an imposter no I've
[24:32] done this for 30 years and I know I'm
[24:33] brilliant but no I'm no I know I'm an
[24:36] imposter too.
[24:36] Humble humble imposttor syndrome. Yeah.
[24:39] Exactly. Or it's actually damaging
[24:42] because instead of people going actually
[24:44] do you know what we're not being like a
[24:46] like a dick about it but I work hard and
[24:48] I try to be good and that that should be
[24:50] good enough.
[24:51] Yeah. You know
[24:52] if we get the if we get the conversation
[24:54] right early enough around confidence and
[24:56] around resilience we should be able to
[24:58] do away with imposter syndrome shouldn't
[25:00] we? No, I'm ambitious about that. 2026,
[25:03] that's I'll be trying to do away with
[25:04] imposter syndrome.
[25:06] Yeah. Nice. Good mission. Good mission.
[25:08] Okay, let's go to 2019. The interview
[25:10] with um with uh Prince Andrew as he was
[25:13] then. Um uh came in November, but after
[25:18] 6 months of negotiation between you and
[25:22] his and his representatives,
[25:24] just tell us Sam about that process.
[25:27] just give us the sort of you know the
[25:29] the the steps that you were feeling uh
[25:33] as you moved quite slowly towards that
[25:36] massive moment.
[25:38] Yeah, absolutely. I mean you know from
[25:40] working in news you know stories are
[25:42] important and unimportant. It it moves
[25:45] with the wind. So the first stage
[25:47] actually was 13 months prior to the
[25:49] interview with a with an email from a PR
[25:52] that I'd done some work with whose name
[25:54] I've never put in the public domain. Um
[25:56] because integrity and trust as you were
[25:58] saying earlier on that that's actually
[26:00] the skill set building trust and showing
[26:03] integrity towards people where possible.
[26:05] Yeah.
[26:06] But it all started with Yeah. just like
[26:07] an email inviting us to have a
[26:09] conversation uh with Prince Andrew. And
[26:11] that was turned down very quickly by me
[26:13] because it was an offering of a puff
[26:15] piece, you know, where you go and meet
[26:17] him and he says he's incredible and
[26:19] amazing and he talks about his
[26:20] charitable work and then the second of
[26:22] which you go, "Oh yes, by the way, what
[26:23] about your friendship with the convicted
[26:25] sex offender Jeffrey Epstein?" You know,
[26:27] it's off with your head and you're
[26:28] pushed out of the door. So,
[26:30] we declined in October and most of my
[26:33] team didn't even know that I was talking
[26:35] to the palace. Um, and then
[26:38] that was a news that was a news night
[26:39] offer that that was being put to you,
[26:41] right? That PR obviously fundamentally
[26:43] misunderstood what news what news night
[26:45] is.
[26:46] Well, God bless that PR. Well,
[26:48] [laughter] the PR had worked with me
[26:49] before, right?
[26:50] So, she knew I was a good girl as uh as
[26:53] they might say in the trade. And so,
[26:55] we'd never had an interview with a
[26:57] member of the royal family. Yeah.
[26:59] And we never will again on News Night.
[27:01] But it was in a sense a gesture of
[27:03] generosity because it was a new client,
[27:05] you know, it was exploratory. It wasn't
[27:07] 100% this can definitely happen, but it
[27:10] was, you know, sort of like a firm
[27:11] offer. So, it was turned down and at
[27:14] that stage he was kind of a forgotten
[27:16] prince and being a forgotten prince
[27:17] would have been a good place to stay for
[27:18] him.
[27:19] Um, but things change, you know, so you
[27:22] go from being sort of, you know, your
[27:24] team are like, we don't want this guy
[27:25] on. He's boring. We're not interested.
[27:27] And then the story moves. And so you
[27:29] find yourself increasingly in a
[27:31] situation where you have the possibility
[27:34] of something or you had and now the
[27:36] story's moved. You know, Epstein's
[27:38] arrested, he's indicted, you know, he's
[27:40] going to be incarcerated. So, in the May
[27:43] of the next year, unbelievably, cuz I
[27:45] thought that would be the end of things,
[27:47] I get invited to Buckingham Palace. And
[27:49] that's the first time I've had any
[27:52] contact with Amanda Thursk, um, who was
[27:54] his chief of staff, played by Keely
[27:56] Horses, in my movie. Sorry, had to be
[27:58] done. [snorts] And that was the moment I
[28:01] went to the palace for the first time.
[28:02] And I didn't even tell my boss for three
[28:05] reasons. Reason one, he's not going to
[28:08] agree to the conditions that we would
[28:11] have, which is that there will be no
[28:12] conditions. He's going to talk about his
[28:14] friendship with the pedophile. That
[28:15] ain't going to happen. Two, at that
[28:18] stage, News Night was in crisis. It had
[28:21] been because of the Savile situation and
[28:23] we'd had three or four editors. There
[28:25] was a new editor coming. I'd had three
[28:27] deputy editors that year. I was dealing
[28:29] with lots of different people. And the
[28:31] the third reason was that 99% of my job
[28:34] was rejection. So it was very unlikely
[28:36] he would say yes. So why give the false
[28:38] impression to your boss that you might
[28:40] get, you know, this interview with a
[28:42] member of the royal family when you're
[28:43] pretty certain it ain't going to happen.
[28:45] So I just kind of went on my own and
[28:47] that was the first time I met Amanda and
[28:50] over the next 6 months that relationship
[28:54] and that foundation and that honest
[28:56] conversation that we had on that first
[28:58] day as strangers who then became, I
[29:01] would dare to say, friends. um by the by
[29:05] the end of things. Although obviously
[29:06] when things went so arai that friendship
[29:08] was hard to sustain but I think we would
[29:10] have called each other friends for sure.
[29:12] That relationship was what propelled us
[29:14] from a position of a place that had no
[29:18] chance of having an interview with a
[29:20] member of the royal family talking about
[29:21] allegations of rape against him which of
[29:23] course he denies to being the place in
[29:26] which that interview occurred. it would
[29:28] have
[29:28] tell us about tell us about how you how
[29:30] you how you built that that trust
[29:33] because of course it's it's easy now
[29:34] from this distance to say he should
[29:36] never have considered it he should never
[29:37] have done it he should never have gone
[29:38] anywhere near it right which is the sort
[29:40] of you know sort of popular
[29:43] um kind of you know view of uh of that
[29:46] moment from his perspective but actually
[29:50] the issue the the issue is not that he
[29:51] necessarily should have done it it's
[29:53] what he said when he when he did it he
[29:54] could actually have used it which I'm
[29:56] sure was the basis of your argument to
[29:58] him. He could have used it
[29:59] in a completely different way. Now
[30:01] whether or not he's cap he was capable
[30:03] of doing that, you know, I think we're
[30:04] all, you know, reasonably clear that he
[30:06] wasn't.
[30:07] But but your your argument was what in a
[30:10] nutshell? U
[30:13] you put your finger on it. The the
[30:15] argument in a sense was just a
[30:17] completely honest one. You know, you had
[30:19] an amazing life. At the moment, your
[30:21] life is kind of on hold because of this
[30:24] relationship with this guy Epstein. the
[30:26] country doesn't believe you, you know,
[30:29] uh they've ne not seen the white of your
[30:31] eyes, they haven't seen the cut of your
[30:32] jib, they haven't heard from you. You've
[30:34] sent out this tiny statement, you know,
[30:36] and it's always written up at the end of
[30:38] 8,000 words about Virginia Roberts who
[30:41] made the accusations. You know, there's
[30:43] there's nothing out there that is going
[30:44] to convince anyone that you didn't do
[30:46] it. And you want the lifestyle you used
[30:49] to have. You want to be able to walk
[30:50] your daughter down the aisle. He was 59.
[30:52] He wanted a birthday party. you know he
[30:55] wasn't a complete pariah but he was
[30:56] certainly a bit of persona non grata so
[30:59] it was the two elements element one is
[31:01] the personal if he does an interview
[31:03] like this will it basically clear his
[31:05] name I was neutral on that I don't know
[31:08] how good are the answers going to be
[31:09] that's a matter for him
[31:10] but what we could offer was a fair
[31:14] opportunity to be given a platform for
[31:17] as long as he wanted it was a very long
[31:19] interview um to talk about everything
[31:22] nothing off the table no conditions and
[31:25] crucially with a woman and not only a
[31:28] woman but you know one of the most
[31:30] impressive presenters in the country
[31:32] Emily Maitless who if people saw him
[31:35] speaking to her they would know this was
[31:36] not some stitchup interview they would
[31:38] know that this was like a proper you
[31:40] know hard hard questions asked
[31:42] interview. So the offer was people don't
[31:46] believe you. They think you're guilty of
[31:47] sin. Here's an opportunity for you to
[31:50] persuade them otherwise. Are you going
[31:51] to do well with that? That's not our
[31:53] responsibility. That's on you. But this
[31:56] is a profound way to communicate with
[31:58] the nation about these allegations and
[32:01] possibly, you know, change your
[32:03] situation to a more positive situation.
[32:06] That's basically the offering.
[32:08] Yeah. I mean, we talk about this a lot
[32:09] on the pod with with various guests that
[32:11] we've had who have some have decided to
[32:14] go public, some have decided to kind of,
[32:16] you know, [snorts] handle it the way
[32:17] they wanted to, you know, they wanted to
[32:19] they wanted they wanted to handle it and
[32:21] by, you know, by sort of staying by
[32:24] staying quiet. Um, I mean, where when
[32:27] you reflect back on the interview now,
[32:31] where do you where do you sort of land
[32:34] on it in terms of his decision making?
[32:38] I mean, what do you I mean, the the the
[32:41] criticism obviously or the or the or the
[32:43] analysis is, you know, he just he just
[32:46] made a total pig's ear of it.
[32:48] Do was it a missed opportunity for him?
[32:50] Could he have used that interview in a
[32:52] different way? Could he have changed the
[32:53] course of of of what's come
[32:55] subsequently? I mean, is there or was it
[32:59] was he always on not because of you
[33:00] guys, right? But was he always on a
[33:02] hiding nothing with it?
[33:04] Yeah. I mean, I I think it would be hard
[33:06] to be exposed to that level of risk for
[33:08] 50 minutes as he was and not, you know,
[33:11] mess up a bit, but my expectation uh
[33:15] coming to it neutally was that he would
[33:17] just be really boring. And boring would
[33:19] have been a really good result here. if
[33:21] he had come in been extremely boring, um
[33:24] basically apologized without kind of
[33:26] showing liability, um been circumspect,
[33:30] been kind of like reflective, been, you
[33:33] know, somber. If he had done a boring
[33:36] interview explaining how he refuted the
[33:39] allegations and he was terribly sad
[33:41] about this awful man and his association
[33:44] with him and he regretted that,
[33:46] I think it could have been neutral or
[33:48] positive for him. Yeah, it was the
[33:50] absence of empathy, wasn't it?
[33:52] Correct. The absence of empathy and even
[33:54] the absence of fake empathy, you know,
[33:56] to at least pretend that you care or at
[33:59] least pretend to say sorry or at least
[34:02] have some words that give the impression
[34:05] that you have any understanding that
[34:06] this isn't really about you. It's about
[34:08] this awful network of, you know,
[34:11] oppression and, you know, kind of like
[34:13] terrible behavior towards young women,
[34:14] particularly, you know, Virginia
[34:16] Roberts, who sadly is no longer with us.
[34:18] to not show a glimpse of that was really
[34:20] the most fatal part and then obviously
[34:22] some of the answers uh appeared
[34:24] far-fetched to add to that. So the lack
[34:28] of empathy, the lack of contrition, the
[34:30] lack of somberness, the lack of
[34:32] self-reflection, those were the fatal
[34:34] elements in my view. It could have gone
[34:36] the other way, but knowing perhaps a
[34:38] little bit more about him than I do now,
[34:41] I think it was unlikely to have gone the
[34:43] right way.
[34:44] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if we just sort of
[34:45] look at it purely from a sort of comm's
[34:47] prof crisis management sort of because
[34:49] it's become such a you know a case study
[34:51] for all the wrong reasons.
[34:53] Yes.
[34:53] Um he it struck me also that he really
[34:57] prepared for it but in all the wrong
[34:59] ways. [laughter]
[35:01] Exactly.
[35:02] You know the some of the answers he gave
[35:04] you just knew had been practiced had
[35:06] been rehearsed and and were just in in
[35:09] entirely the wrong answers to the wrong
[35:11] questions if you know what I mean. He
[35:12] just put all his prep in the wrong in
[35:15] the wrong in the wrong direction.
[35:17] You're which was revealing.
[35:19] Totally agree with you. Every answer was
[35:21] it it's not having kind of like an
[35:22] understanding of how the world works.
[35:24] You know, you're so dissociated. It's
[35:25] not just Prince Andrew. It's lots of
[35:26] powerful people, you know, surrounded by
[35:28] people telling them they're amazing and
[35:30] they come up with ideas in a very small
[35:32] world that seem profoundly brilliant,
[35:35] like saying it was the honorable thing
[35:36] to do to go and end the friendship with,
[35:39] you know, a convicted sex offender and
[35:41] and that that's going to that's going to
[35:42] cut the mustard with a normal person or
[35:44] indeed with me. And it kind of reminded
[35:46] me, I had a client one time that was
[35:47] accused of shoplifting and he was doing
[35:49] really well on the stand and they were
[35:51] like, "So, you know, did you go in with
[35:52] the intention to kind of like steal
[35:53] these trainers?" Disney went I
[35:54] absolutely did not blah blah blah and it
[35:56] was you know it was going all well and
[35:57] they didn't have CCTV and we kind of got
[36:00] to the last question and I said you know
[36:01] is there anything else you wanted to say
[36:02] or something I basically screwed up
[36:05] myself and he was like yes absolutely I
[36:06] did not go in the intention with
[36:07] stealing trainers I went in with the
[36:09] intention of stealing a backpack and
[36:11] [laughter]
[36:12] you're like oh and it was a bit it was
[36:15] [laughter] a bit like that it's like it
[36:17] is not relevant you know that you went
[36:20] to speak to him in person it is not
[36:22] relevant uh whether or not you were in a
[36:24] Pizza Express in Woking. It it really
[36:26] doesn't feel relevant to a normal person
[36:28] whether you were sweating or not when
[36:30] you're accused of raping someone. These
[36:32] are all red herrings. And every red
[36:35] herring um became more and more kind of
[36:38] like suffocating in terms of being in
[36:40] the room listening to those offkey,
[36:43] off-kilter bad answers.
[36:46] You were clear in the moment that this
[36:48] was going to become what it became. I
[36:50] mean to what and you never can be
[36:51] completely can you obviously but your
[36:53] instincts were uh this is this is deeply
[36:56] significant and this is this is this is
[36:59] going to be this is going to be a very
[37:01] significant moment.
[37:03] Yeah, absolutely. I mean by then you
[37:05] know I have what I would call a news
[37:06] brain. I mean I wasn't in the room with
[37:08] the highest level of knowledge about you
[37:11] know the under secretary of the
[37:13] department and what they did in 1864
[37:15] which many of my colleagues would be. I
[37:16] didn't have that kind of classic, you
[37:18] know, sort of education. But what I did
[37:20] have was an understanding of what the
[37:22] country thinks and feels cuz I am like
[37:24] the country. I appreciate I'm a bit
[37:25] bougie now, but I am just an ordinary
[37:28] girl in an extraordinary situation. And
[37:31] I know what ordinary people, which I am,
[37:34] um because I grew up on the Mail and the
[37:36] Sun and the Express, you know, I grew up
[37:38] in that world. I know. Sitting there. Oh
[37:43] my god. Did the Duke of York just say he
[37:47] has an alibi at pizza expressing woking?
[37:49] Did he just mention that he has a
[37:51] medical condition where he doesn't
[37:52] swear? Did he just talk about being
[37:55] aroused in a kind of princely way? Did
[37:57] he just say he doesn't regret being
[37:59] friends with someone who's a convicted
[38:01] pedophile? What? So my non-cultured,
[38:05] nonBBC, non-Phin is on fire and my ex-
[38:09] barristister brain is also on fire
[38:12] because he said nothing to help himself
[38:15] other than one sentence where he said,
[38:18] "I had that medical condition at the
[38:20] time."
[38:21] What was your reaction to the reaction
[38:23] if you like? You know, I mean, you you
[38:25] you knew this was big as you've just
[38:27] explained, but uh it exploded uh
[38:31] obviously.
[38:32] Yeah. Um,
[38:32] yeah, I I couldn't I mean, you know,
[38:34] even if I was the most sort of clever
[38:36] Mystic Meg in the world, I could never
[38:38] have envvisaged the impact that it has
[38:40] had and the fact that here we are six
[38:42] years later still talking about it. And
[38:44] the conversation is not even over. You
[38:46] know, the conversation is still ongoing
[38:48] because of the Epstein files and because
[38:49] of, you know, President Trump and, you
[38:52] know, it's just in the press virtually
[38:54] every day. So I think the thing that
[38:57] was, you know, shocking in a sense was
[39:00] the profound reach of this conversation
[39:03] and of course it was intergenerational
[39:05] because you might be watching Aunt and
[39:06] Deck the next day as I was and I'm a
[39:08] Celebrity mentioning it. You might see a
[39:10] meme about you know Pizza Express and
[39:12] Sweatiness or you might have watched the
[39:15] whole interview and kind of analyzed it
[39:17] and been shocked by it in its kind of
[39:19] full extent. So it touched much more
[39:22] than News Night usually touches. was the
[39:25] only conversation the country was
[39:26] having. It really was and as you say to
[39:28] a large extent you know continues to be
[39:31] and that's the other thing that that
[39:32] that that was achieved with the
[39:34] interview uh which is which is which is
[39:37] you know inadvertent I'm sure but he you
[39:40] know managed to take it was a obviously
[39:42] a big story with an awful lot of
[39:44] interest but the approach that he took
[39:47] meant that it as you just described it
[39:49] kind of became part of the fabric of the
[39:51] of the of the of the country across all
[39:54] areas all ages all groups groups, all
[39:57] demographics, everybody was talking
[39:59] about it
[40:00] totally. He kind of democratized it with
[40:02] his answers in a sense that, you know,
[40:04] something that could have been a boring
[40:06] thing for kind of, you know, an elite
[40:08] group of people who take an interest in
[40:09] such matters became the only
[40:12] conversation in town. I mean, you know,
[40:14] my son's friends knew about Pizza
[40:16] Express in Woking. I mean, they probably
[40:17] didn't even know Prince Andrew was, but,
[40:19] you know, they they'd seen a meme or
[40:21] something. So, it was the only time in
[40:23] my career that I ever experienced that.
[40:26] And it was not something the BBC was
[40:27] used to, of course. So it had that extra
[40:30] tension of the slight embarrassment
[40:32] almost that the BBC often feels when it
[40:34] has success.
[40:36] Yes. [laughter] Nicely put. Uh let's
[40:40] let's talk about, you know, how it the
[40:43] BBC's handling of it then. And you know,
[40:46] you've been you've been um uh um
[40:50] generous, I would say, in the in in in
[40:52] the in the way that you've characterized
[40:54] um the the the the way that the BBC
[40:57] failed to give you sufficient credit.
[41:00] Certainly, in my opinion. Um but you did
[41:03] feel it. You did, you know, that was
[41:05] what led in part to your decision
[41:08] making. Uh um we discussed right at the
[41:11] start of the conversation. How did that
[41:14] feel? I mean, was it was it was it um a
[41:17] kind of immediate feeling that hang on a
[41:19] second, I'm I'm I'm the person who
[41:21] brought this interview in, you know,
[41:23] I've been a significant part of this and
[41:25] I'm not getting sufficient credit for
[41:27] it. Was that a was that was that an
[41:29] immediate feeling or did that build over
[41:31] time? S.
[41:34] Yeah. No, I mean I'm not sure I ever
[41:36] really felt that way to be honest. I
[41:37] just felt that that is how it works. Um
[41:41] it's very clear when you work in
[41:42] production. This is nothing against any
[41:44] presenter or any individual, you know.
[41:46] Um,
[41:46] it just is the case that, you know, you
[41:49] do some work and then a presenter's name
[41:51] is on it or, you know, whoever does the
[41:53] on-screen thing, their name is on it.
[41:54] And that was just kind of accepted as
[41:56] how it worked. I'd pushed against that a
[41:59] little bit over the years because when
[42:01] for example, you know, I didn't I worked
[42:03] on an interview and then Jeremy or Emily
[42:05] or Kirsty Walk or whoever it was did it
[42:08] sufficiently well that there were, you
[42:09] know, six pages in the mail slagging it
[42:11] off which was like yes result, you know,
[42:13] I was proud of that. I would cut out all
[42:15] those cutings, you know, that was part
[42:17] of my work. It was like amazing to see
[42:19] it travel. So, I'd spent some years
[42:21] putting my name on my work in a not in a
[42:24] passive aggressive way, just in an
[42:26] aggressive way to my six followers on
[42:29] Twitter as it was called, you know, or
[42:30] LinkedIn, my seven followers. I just
[42:32] always tried to attach my name to my
[42:34] work because I knew that I existed
[42:36] outside the BBC at some stage and I
[42:39] needed to be able to show the body of
[42:40] work I'd done and some of this stuff was
[42:42] really high profile. So, I think that
[42:44] rubbed people up the wrong way
[42:45] sometimes, but I didn't really care cuz
[42:47] I felt it was important to put my name
[42:49] to the work. So, in a sense, my
[42:52] frustration didn't come from the BBC and
[42:55] the way it behaved. Um, I'm not some
[42:58] victim in this. You know, this is not a
[42:59] big deal in the scheme of things that
[43:01] happen to real people with real problems
[43:03] in the real world.
[43:05] But in my little professional world,
[43:07] what I had established that if something
[43:09] cool happened that I had worked on, I
[43:12] liked people to know about it because
[43:14] that's the kind of brash gal I am. This
[43:16] was the biggest example in the history
[43:19] of journalism in my lifetime of
[43:22] something that the BBC had done. And not
[43:26] only that, it had been done with clean
[43:27] hands. This was not a Martin Basher,
[43:29] Princess Diana situation. I knew how I'd
[43:31] behaved and I knew my integrity. And
[43:34] yeah, you know, is that an arrogance? Is
[43:36] that
[43:37] it's confidence?
[43:39] It's a confidence. Yeah. I I wanted my
[43:41] name on it. So, it wasn't a kind of like
[43:44] damn you the BBC, damn you News Night
[43:46] vibe. It was more a okay, how do I have
[43:49] my name on this? And I realized that
[43:51] within an organization that has a
[43:53] million things to do and doesn't have
[43:55] time to worry about, you know, the
[43:56] confidence of a junior producer, the
[43:59] only person that was going to do that
[44:00] was me.
[44:01] I love that. I love that.
[44:02] I had to work out how to do it.
[44:03] I love that, Sam, because it's
[44:05] interesting because we've, you know,
[44:06] I've misinterpreted it, right? Because
[44:07] I've I've looked at it and kind of got
[44:08] angry on your behalf. No, I'm not.
[44:11] [laughter]
[44:11] And you're and you're you're actually
[44:13] what you did is is is not get bitter,
[44:16] not get angry. You just took control.
[44:18] Correct. And I wasn't even looking to
[44:19] get even. I mean, someone said this is
[44:20] like the best accidental revenge ever,
[44:23] you know, cuz I got a Netflix deal and
[44:24] now, you know, I was played by Billy
[44:26] Piper in an Emmy nominated Netflix movie
[44:28] that was watched by 30 million people.
[44:30] It is, you know, an accident.
[44:32] Not a bad sentence. That sounds
[44:33] not a bad sentence, right? [laughter]
[44:34] But but there was no element of revenge
[44:36] in this. There is no bitterness. There
[44:38] is no issue. There is no kind of like
[44:40] I've got no beef as as you know the kids
[44:42] say. Yeah. Um I have no beef, but I do
[44:45] have a very strong relationship with
[44:47] myself and I knew that I wanted my name
[44:50] on this and I had to find a way to do
[44:52] that without peeing off too many people,
[44:54] which I'm not sure I've succeeded in. Uh
[44:56] but, you know, I wasn't looking to to
[44:58] stir things up. I wasn't looking to be
[45:00] obnoxious. I wasn't looking to alienate
[45:02] people and be difficult and bitter. I
[45:04] just wanted to have, you know, something
[45:07] that reflected the work that I'd done.
[45:09] And nor was you nor was you looking to
[45:11] reduce the input and brilliant work of
[45:15] others, right? At any
[45:17] I relentlessly mention them. I mean,
[45:18] yeah, I've taken some flak for like, you
[45:20] know, being a big sort of like
[45:21] narcissist and I'm really not. I know
[45:23] it's hard to believe, but I'm really
[45:25] not. And I would try whenever I did
[45:27] media to mention the names, you know,
[45:28] I'll mention them now. Stuart McClean,
[45:30] he was the executive editor. Um, he was
[45:32] the deputy editor at the time. brilliant
[45:33] guy. He, you know, he ran News Night for
[45:35] a while. Jake Morris, who did all this
[45:38] amazing research that kind of like, you
[45:40] know, was the backbone of this
[45:41] interview. Emily Maitness, whose name
[45:43] you might have heard before, you know,
[45:44] an incredible presenter. So, there was
[45:47] so much here that had happened that I
[45:50] felt there was space for everyone, you
[45:52] know, everyone could have um a slice of
[45:55] the credit pie. And I did chase I chased
[45:57] my slice and I chased it relentlessly
[45:59] and it worked out really well for me.
[46:01] But it came from a position of uh
[46:04] confidence and wanting my name on this
[46:07] slice of pie, not for wanting the whole
[46:09] pie for myself.
[46:10] No, I love all that, Sam. There there'll
[46:12] be people listening to this, I'm sure,
[46:14] who are maybe pondering a career change.
[46:17] Maybe maybe it's not even related to
[46:19] their career, just a change in life,
[46:21] right?
[46:22] Um maybe some of them feel that they're
[46:23] not getting the credit that they
[46:25] deserve. Uh um what what advice what
[46:28] does all this boil down to? What advice
[46:30] would you would you would would you give
[46:31] to to someone who's sort of stuck if you
[46:33] like in that position?
[46:35] Yeah, I I think you know I do have quite
[46:38] a healthy sense of if it all ended
[46:40] tomorrow, am I happy with what I did
[46:41] today, but you have to have a financial
[46:43] bottom line. You know, most people in
[46:45] this country don't have a plan B or a
[46:48] trust fund or you know a rich partner
[46:50] like paying their bills. You know, it's
[46:51] on us. It's on me. That's how most
[46:53] people in this country are. So for all
[46:56] of my kind of like courage and my
[46:59] relentless pursuit of new things and my
[47:01] fearlessness, I have a financial bottom
[47:03] line. And that financial bottom line is
[47:05] paying the bills, keeping my son alive,
[47:07] keeping us clothed, you know, keeping
[47:09] the heating on. Beyond that, I don't
[47:12] really have financial aspirations. And I
[47:15] think that that has been my greatest
[47:16] gift that I didn't go on holiday for six
[47:19] years. I don't own a car. The paint is
[47:22] chipped. I don't care about those
[47:23] things. But I do care about the
[47:26] satisfaction of doing something that as
[47:28] we said in the movie, something that
[47:29] matters. Uh something that I feel has
[47:32] impact for me and is a tiny little
[47:35] legacy of happiness and satisfaction and
[47:38] self-respect and integrity. So I think
[47:41] chasing what matters to you and
[47:44] sometimes taking the financial
[47:45] consequences of that is a risk worth
[47:48] taking. But I know I'm in the fortunate
[47:50] position to be able to take that risk
[47:51] because my overheads are quite low and
[47:53] despite a love of bougie martinis, I
[47:56] really don't have any kind of like, you
[47:57] know, great aspirations to be rich. So I
[48:01] think that's probably my sweet spot. So,
[48:03] if you think you want to make a change,
[48:05] if you think it ended tomorrow and you
[48:07] would be regretful and rofal that your
[48:09] last thought would be, damn, I wish I'd
[48:12] left this job that I don't like, that
[48:13] I'm pension chasing and I'm miserable
[48:15] in, then please try and do something
[48:16] about it cuz I don't want you to have
[48:18] any regrets. Cuz I tell you, if it all
[48:20] ends today, I've got none.
[48:23] Superb. Uh, let's just talk briefly
[48:26] about the film. uh a hell of an
[48:28] experience for you as well and you were
[48:29] the exact producer of of of um of Scoop.
[48:33] You've said watching Billy Piper play
[48:35] you and sort of perform, you know,
[48:38] moments that you'd live through, you
[48:39] know, made you cry on set. So, it was a
[48:42] it was a pretty emotional as well as,
[48:45] you know, exciting but but emotional in
[48:48] a different way um experience for you.
[48:51] Yeah, absolutely. I think because you
[48:53] know when I did leave and because of all
[48:54] of the I look I'm not saying I'm famous
[48:57] of course I'm not but because I was a
[48:59] nobody one day and I'm kind of like a
[49:01] wist person the next day going to posh
[49:03] parties and you know the males writing
[49:05] about me and people are interested I
[49:07] mean no one's literally interested in my
[49:08] love life let's be honest but you know
[49:10] the son was interested in my love life
[49:11] you know I I'd gone from like literally
[49:13] zero to kind of wist and so going back
[49:16] to the BBC it was the first time I went
[49:18] back um I went back to do one interview
[49:20] with a friend of mine when the book came
[49:22] came out and since then the next time I
[49:24] go back is with Billy Piper dressed as
[49:28] me uh a Netflix crew and the immense
[49:33] privilege of the incredibly talented
[49:34] people of that team all of whom were
[49:38] like cheering me on. I just had suddenly
[49:40] I think that the the profoundness of it
[49:42] for me was a the return to the place
[49:44] where things had been a bit unhappy at
[49:47] the end. Let's be honest. Uh with this
[49:50] incredible group of people who were
[49:52] basically being hired off the back of
[49:53] the story that I was wanting to tell
[49:55] with this incredible actress who's been
[49:57] so kind to me and still is where, you
[49:59] know, we're we're friends. Um not that I
[50:01] expected that. She's kind of stuck with
[50:03] me. I'm stuck with her in a good way.
[50:05] And it was just a what a moment. You
[50:08] know, you walk away from a job thinking
[50:10] you might end up in penury. Could it be
[50:12] a terrible mistake? Should you have
[50:13] taken that job with Piers Morgan? Um,
[50:16] and [snorts] now here you are with 130
[50:18] people on payroll, Billy Piper dressed
[50:20] in your, you know, kind of cheapest
[50:22] chips outfit, strutting, pretending to
[50:24] be you in a blonde wig and huge
[50:27] sunglasses that you used to wear every
[50:28] day at the office and people used to
[50:29] take the Mickey out of you for. And wow.
[50:33] I mean, if you're not going to cry at
[50:34] that, you know, you must have a heart of
[50:36] stone. Well, it's just such a great kind
[50:38] of demonstration, the sort of
[50:40] manifestation of you having taken
[50:42] control.
[50:43] Yes.
[50:44] To see that happening in front of you.
[50:46] Yeah. [laughter] Of course, it could
[50:47] have gone horribly wrong, but it was the
[50:49] most incredible manifestation of how it
[50:52] had gone incredibly right.
[50:53] Yeah. Amazing. Look, I mean, we've we've
[50:56] talked a lot about Prince Andrew, but
[50:57] there are a tremendous amount of
[50:58] interviews that came before. We touched
[51:01] on some of them in the, you know, in the
[51:02] intro. All of them demonstrations of
[51:05] your abilities to persuade and to build
[51:08] trust. Let me just let me just ask you
[51:11] what what what is the what's the sort of
[51:13] operating system that you have for
[51:15] building trust, right? What's the what's
[51:18] the approach that you that you take uh
[51:21] to get to that point with with someone
[51:24] who is invariably either very well known
[51:27] either for the right or the wrong
[51:28] reasons, powerful and ego more often
[51:32] than not. What's what's the what's the
[51:34] Sam Mallister model for building trust?
[51:36] Well, look, I was really well verssed in
[51:38] dealing with ego. I worked at the BBC,
[51:40] so I mean, you know, [laughter] it's
[51:42] fine. I think I think the model is
[51:44] really I mean, I I hate the word
[51:46] authenticity, but I'm going to have to
[51:47] use it. I think my superpower was I
[51:50] don't know how to be any different. So,
[51:52] it's a combination of personality and
[51:54] preparation. The preparation is when
[51:57] you're dealing with anyone, you know, in
[52:00] this the process of trying to persuade
[52:02] someone powerful to take a risk which is
[52:05] generous of them to do. Yes.
[52:07] You know, understanding that they are
[52:09] doing you a favor. I had no sense of
[52:11] kind of like, oh, lucky you, you could
[52:12] be on News Night. Are you insane? I
[52:14] mean, what a risk, you know. So
[52:16] understanding it's a risk and coming at
[52:18] it from doing research into the
[52:20] individual as to the concerns they may
[52:22] or may not have, what they might think
[52:25] of the opportunity, what might motivate
[52:28] them to do it in terms of their bottom
[52:30] line or they're selling a book irony or
[52:33] you know they're putting forward a
[52:34] government proposal. what is the sweet
[52:37] spot between what I offer and the risk
[52:40] on the table and their offering and what
[52:43] they need, what their motivation is. But
[52:45] on top of that, because of the type of
[52:48] person I am, you know, take it or leave
[52:50] it. Uh you like it, you don't like it.
[52:53] Zero, you know what's given.
[52:55] Yeah.
[52:55] In a professional setting, but you know,
[52:58] you may not want to work with me, but
[53:00] you won't forget meeting me. And in a
[53:03] sea of people just kind of like, you
[53:05] know, sucking up to people and telling
[53:08] them what they want to hear, I never
[53:10] told people anything other than the
[53:12] truth. And the truth is doing these
[53:14] kinds of interviews is a risk and you
[53:16] might mess it up or you might be
[53:18] brilliant. I don't know. Um, but here
[53:20] are four reasons why you should do it in
[53:21] my view. And if you decide not to do it,
[53:24] never taking it personally, not being
[53:26] difficult about it, leaving a good taste
[53:28] in someone's mouth. And I think really
[53:30] the combination of integrity,
[53:33] authenticity, robustness, directness.
[53:36] Yes. And being actually pretty easy to
[53:39] work with
[53:40] made me quite unusual in journalism.
[53:43] That's I think if I would try to distill
[53:45] all that down to one word, I'd say
[53:46] respect. I think you you you that's how
[53:49] that's how you've built trust
[53:53] uh with with those people that you've
[53:54] worked with is that you've treated them
[53:55] with respect and you've demanded it of
[53:57] yourself
[53:58] always. Look, I'm no better than any
[54:00] that's how proper relationships are
[54:02] built, right?
[54:02] Totally. Yeah. I'm no better than anyone
[54:05] and no one is better than me. And my mom
[54:07] literally taught me to mix with princes
[54:08] and pulpers. didn't mean it literally,
[54:10] of course, but I've been brought up that
[54:12] I don't care if you're Elon Musk, you
[54:14] know, and you're worth whatever billion.
[54:15] Like, you know, are you like just talk,
[54:17] just just be normal. You're not better
[54:19] than me and I'm not better than you. So,
[54:21] that was a really good foundation for
[54:23] not being intimidated by wealthy,
[54:25] powerful people. And also not caring.
[54:27] You know, I'm not going to get an OB, a
[54:29] CBE, an MBE. I'm not going to be invited
[54:31] to the palace for parties and I don't
[54:33] care cuz I was going to be at home
[54:34] watching Love Island on Netflix anyway
[54:36] or whatever, you know, having some
[54:37] Pringles or minding my own business on a
[54:39] bus, which I still always travel on. You
[54:41] know, I wasn't looking for those things.
[54:43] I wasn't looking to be part of that
[54:45] club. And so, I'm not looking to annoy
[54:48] it, but I don't have any difference um
[54:51] or respect or reverence for people who
[54:54] have power and money. I'll treat them
[54:56] all right as long as they treat me all
[54:58] right, but that's it. Superb. I also
[55:01] love that line that you just um that you
[55:02] just uttered that you might not want to
[55:04] work with me, but you'll remember me.
[55:06] That is that's that's priceless. Now,
[55:09] look, I can't not ask while I've got
[55:11] you. Uh BBC is where it is today. Um you
[55:14] know, you explained, you know, right at
[55:16] the start of this interview just just
[55:17] how much you I think still, you know,
[55:20] care about that organization and and and
[55:23] and the people that a lot of the people
[55:24] that work within it. It's in crisis.
[55:27] It's latest in a long line, but this one
[55:28] feels pretty visceral at the moment. Um,
[55:31] trust sort of sits at the center,
[55:33] doesn't it? Uh, of of of this current
[55:37] situation for the beep. What's its way
[55:40] forward, Sam, in your view?
[55:42] Yeah, you know, [clears throat] it's an
[55:43] impossible situation. It just feels it
[55:45] gets worse every day. And I am, as you
[55:47] say, you know, still obviously
[55:48] emotionally invested in a in an
[55:50] incredible corporation that gave me an
[55:52] incredible career. But it just seems
[55:54] every time, a bit like with Prince
[55:55] Andrew, I'm afraid, every time a
[55:57] decision is made, it feels that it often
[55:58] goes the wrong way. And I think one of
[56:00] the things that the BBC does uh poorly
[56:04] is reflect with humility when things go
[56:08] wrong. So if you are at a stage at which
[56:11] your director general has been you know
[56:13] kind of like vilified for the handling
[56:15] of the situation with Hugh Edwards with
[56:17] Bob Villain with the situation you know
[56:19] in the Middle East with this spliced you
[56:23] know footage in Panorama it's not just
[56:25] one thing there were many years of quite
[56:28] profound criticisms and I think at the
[56:31] stage at which things are imploding
[56:33] instead of kind of being bitter or
[56:36] people posting kind of you know things
[56:38] on X who work there about how it's some
[56:41] right-wing conspiracy. You know, this is
[56:43] the most unhelpful way of progressing
[56:46] because the perception of the BBC is
[56:48] some kind of liberal consensus elite is
[56:51] really compounded by people saying,
[56:54] "Well, actually, this is a right-wing
[56:56] conspiracy. Our hands are clean. We're
[56:58] perfect." And I think that lack of
[57:00] humility has really disconnected the
[57:03] average person from the BBC which
[57:06] increasingly feels even to me like a
[57:09] place for elite conversations that don't
[57:12] understand the country as a whole. And
[57:15] that is where the space is to improve.
[57:18] If the next director general or the
[57:20] people around him or her care more about
[57:23] the British in broadcasting corporation,
[57:26] I think you can steer the ship the right
[57:28] direction. But if there continues to be
[57:31] this almost slight disdain for the
[57:33] British element, particularly those who
[57:35] disagree with the small kind of like,
[57:38] you know, beautiful no doubt world of
[57:40] Islington kind of dinner parties, then
[57:43] it's all over. Game over. So, who is the
[57:46] next dire director general? I mean, I'm
[57:48] available. Um, and what does he or she
[57:51] do?
[57:51] There are I tell you I tell you
[57:53] [laughter]
[57:54] campaign starts here.
[57:56] I'll wait for the call, Andy, but I
[57:57] won't be holding my breath.
[57:58] Well, like I like I say, it starts here.
[58:01] Um Sam, thank you so much for this
[58:04] conversation. It's been absolutely
[58:05] brilliant and useful, I think, for uh
[58:07] and I hope for um for, you know, for
[58:09] people listening and watching. Um you
[58:11] are an absolute powerhouse and uh and
[58:13] [music] thank you for your time. Thank
[58:15] you, Andy. I appreciate it.
[58:17] Crisis, what crisis is a podcast really
[58:19] that's all about coming back from the
[58:21] brink to a place of strength. So, if you
[58:24] know someone who needs that, please,
[58:26] please do share it. As always, full
[58:28] transcripts along with helpful links are
[58:30] available on our website. Just head
[58:32] [music] to crisiswithcrisis.com.