# Historian Timothy Snyder on ENDING Trump Nightmare FOR GOOD | PoliticsGirl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqf9obbdJac

[00:00] The only thing we bring to what comes
[00:03] after is what we are now. That's all we
[00:06] bring. And so if we are joyful and
[00:09] cooperative and effective, and we
[00:11] understand that we can win, then when we
[00:15] get to the place which is and feels like
[00:18] a victory, we'll be much better off. So,
[00:21] yeah, there are reasons to worry, and
[00:23] yes, there are ways things can go
[00:25] horribly wrong, but their power position
[00:27] is not great. On their side, they are
[00:30] very, very, very concerned.
[00:43] Hello, and welcome to the [music]
[00:44] Politics Girl Podcast. I'm your host
[00:46] Lema Gallon. Let's get into it.
[00:48] As today's guest, Timothy Snyder argues,
[00:50] freedom is the great American
[00:52] commitment, but we've lost sight of what
[00:54] it means. The New York Times
[00:55] best-selling author, Yale and now
[00:57] University of Toronto historian, is best
[01:00] known for his expertise on
[01:01] authoritarianism and his books on
[01:02] tyranny and on freedom. And while we can
[01:05] use the first book to recognize how far
[01:07] down the rabbit hole America has gone,
[01:09] it's the ideas in the second book that
[01:10] he sees as our chance for survival. So,
[01:13] I'm having a conversation with Professor
[01:14] Snyder today for obvious reasons,
[01:16] because clearly American democracy is in
[01:18] deep crisis, and we are not the only
[01:20] country in the world where
[01:21] authoritarians are rising. The world
[01:23] order is changing, and we need to
[01:25] understand where we stand in that change
[01:27] and what we're willing to do to avoid
[01:28] the worst-case scenario. So, without
[01:30] further ado, please welcome my guest,
[01:32] world-leading historian, now UFT
[01:34] professor, and award-winning author
[01:36] Timothy Snyder. Welcome back, Professor.
[01:39] Hey, glad to be with you.
[01:40] Oh, I'm so glad you're here today.
[01:42] Here's what I'll say. People are afraid
[01:45] right now. If you're looking around and
[01:47] you're seeing the news and you're seeing
[01:48] what's going on, they feel very anxious,
[01:50] but you aren't someone who's known to be
[01:53] a worrier. You're someone who's known to
[01:55] see patterns and then reflect on those
[01:58] patterns. So, what are you seeing right
[02:00] now and what would you have us know
[02:02] about what you're recognizing?
[02:04] That's a really good question because
[02:06] I think we have to move from recognition
[02:11] to action rather than from recognition
[02:13] to
[02:14] anxiety. And I'm not speaking of people
[02:16] who have good reason to be anxious, like
[02:18] people who are undocumented or for other
[02:20] reason are directly in the crosshairs of
[02:23] of this regime. But for many of us, we
[02:26] have this kind of luxury where we go
[02:28] from recognition of a problem to being
[02:31] anxious or worried or fearful about it.
[02:34] And the anxiety or the worry and the
[02:35] fear then displaces, unfortunately, the
[02:38] little actions that we could take. And
[02:40] it's the little actions which are all we
[02:43] have to do in order to turn this all
[02:45] around. So, what I recognize is that we
[02:49] have a president who is trying to
[02:51] engineer a regime change towards a per-
[02:54] permanent authoritarian system. That is
[02:57] what's going on. All the evidence is
[02:59] right in front of us. He talks about it
[03:00] pretty much every day
[03:02] in the in the words and the tonality.
[03:04] Pretty much all the policy decisions
[03:06] point that way. Just to give an obvious
[03:08] example, the idea of giving the military
[03:09] a trillion and a half dollars is just I
[03:13] mean, on its face, it's a bribe so that
[03:15] the military will support him as he
[03:16] tries to rig elections and power
[03:18] forever. Like, that's what he's trying
[03:20] to do. And I realize that if we say
[03:23] that, then we might have emotional
[03:25] reactions to it. But what I'm trying to
[03:27] say is that if we don't say it, like if
[03:29] we don't notice it, then we're going
[03:31] along with it. We're giving them time
[03:34] they don't deserve. We're giving them
[03:35] points they don't deserve. The stuff
[03:37] that they're doing, they're doing it,
[03:39] but it's going to fail if we if we do
[03:42] our part. Like, if we do a modicum, if
[03:45] we do the things we're supposed to do,
[03:47] it's going to fail and it's going to
[03:48] fail badly. It's going going
[03:50] embarrassingly. He's not popular. The
[03:53] war in Iran is not popular. Giving
[03:55] billions of dollars of tax money to his
[03:56] friends is not popular. Corruption is
[04:00] This is They They want to rig the
[04:01] election and that is also not popular
[04:04] and that should make them less popular
[04:06] and we should make sure that that they
[04:08] will be punished if they try to do
[04:10] something like that. So,
[04:12] we have to recognize that yes, they're
[04:14] attempting something drastic because
[04:16] without recognition, we become
[04:18] participants in it. But once we
[04:20] recognize it, we have to move to a
[04:22] position of action and victory because
[04:25] the victory is very much within our
[04:27] grasp and the thing which is stopping
[04:29] us, the main thing which is stopping us
[04:31] from being victorious is being anxious
[04:34] about what they're trying to do. Yeah,
[04:35] they're trying to do it and yeah, it has
[04:37] to be stopped, but it can be stopped.
[04:40] Let me back you up to what you were
[04:41] talking about about this budget for the
[04:44] military. You just wrote an article on
[04:46] this, which is what you call Trump's
[04:48] military dictatorship budget. Can you
[04:51] expand a little bit on that because
[04:52] people often say, "Show me your budget
[04:54] and I'll show you your priorities." And
[04:56] Trump's budget here seems pretty
[04:58] extraordinarily clear. He has a plan and
[05:01] just so people understand, Trump's
[05:03] proposal is to increase the military
[05:05] budget by nearly 50% and it is, as
[05:08] Professor Steiner has said, a bribe in
[05:10] many ways to officers and soldiers so
[05:12] they will side with him when he tries to
[05:14] overthrow the Constitution or stay in
[05:16] power indefinitely. That's what the
[05:18] evidence points to. We know that Trump
[05:20] is a transactional person and there's
[05:22] sort of abundant evidence that he sees
[05:24] politics as a matter of people will do
[05:27] what they are paid to do. They will be
[05:29] okay being paid off. So, is that what
[05:31] you see happening here? Can you expand
[05:33] on this a little bit?
[05:35] Yeah, let me start by just saying a word
[05:37] about all the things this budget isn't.
[05:39] It isn't a rational reward for a
[05:42] military that's performing necessary and
[05:44] useful things. Unfortunately, our
[05:46] military is being abused to fight wars
[05:49] that nobody wants um and it's it's not
[05:53] it's not a result of some kind of
[05:54] doctrinal or technological review. On
[05:57] the contrary, it basically keeps in
[05:59] place a lot of stuff that is essentially
[06:01] archaic at this point, which by the way
[06:04] many people inside the military
[06:05] obviously know. And it's not something
[06:09] which we can afford. This half trillion
[06:12] for the military, additional half
[06:13] trillion, will make the rest of the
[06:16] federal government dysfunctional. It
[06:17] will both wipe out social programs and
[06:21] force the average American breadwinner
[06:24] or family to pay thousands of dollars
[06:26] more tax a year. So, those are all the
[06:29] things it's not. What it is is, as you
[06:32] say, it's a result of transactionalism.
[06:34] And I want to dwell on that point for a
[06:35] minute because
[06:36] for a long time
[06:38] I've been saying Trump has an urge, an
[06:40] aim, a desire to change the American
[06:43] political system. And then the answer
[06:44] is, "No, he's just transactional." But
[06:46] this is a good moment for us to consider
[06:48] what it means to just be transactional.
[06:51] Because if I'm just transactional, then
[06:53] one transaction might be your tax money
[06:57] to pay my military to transform our
[07:00] political system so I can be military
[07:02] dictator forever. That's a transaction,
[07:04] right? And And if you're just a
[07:06] transactionalist and you have no
[07:08] attachment to your own country or no
[07:10] attachment to the law or no attachment
[07:11] to its republic or its democracy, then
[07:14] that's a perfectly reasonable
[07:15] transaction and that is exactly the
[07:16] transaction that Trump is calling upon
[07:18] us to perform. Our tax money to bribe
[07:21] our military so suddenly it can become
[07:23] his country. That's a transaction. So,
[07:26] when we say that Trump's a
[07:26] transactionalist, we have to not say
[07:28] just a transactionalist because a
[07:30] transactionalist is somebody who is a
[07:32] nihilist about everything else and is
[07:34] only concerned about his own interests
[07:36] and will be creatively coming up with
[07:38] transactions which will further his very
[07:41] specific interest of being in power
[07:43] indefinitely. And as you know, and as
[07:45] for this budget, the fact that it makes
[07:47] no military sense whatsoever, no fiscal
[07:50] sense whatsoever, no kind of sense
[07:52] whatsoever, also forces us into this
[07:55] interpretation that it's just a bribe.
[07:57] And I just want to note that that is as
[07:59] you say where the evidence points,
[08:01] right? Everything we know about Trump is
[08:04] that he is transactional and thinks
[08:05] about politics only in terms of who is
[08:07] paying whom. And so given that, and also
[08:11] given the purge of the military by
[08:12] Hegseth, given that both Hegseth and
[08:14] Trump talk about using the military in
[08:17] the homeland, which means you and me,
[08:19] against you and me, this interpretation
[08:21] is the obvious one. It's the one which
[08:23] is right down the middle. And if we're
[08:25] looking away from it, it's because we
[08:27] for whatever reason were highly
[08:28] motivated to look away from what is
[08:30] pretty obvious.
[08:31] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you were recently
[08:34] saying as we head into the midterms, we
[08:36] need to be really paying attention to
[08:39] who's willing to break the law for Trump
[08:41] because clearly this is the system he's
[08:43] creating. He's clearly testing the
[08:45] military to see how far they'll go for
[08:47] him. We know that the January 6ers got
[08:50] away with everything. They committed
[08:51] violence, they broke the law on his
[08:52] behalf, then they were pardoned for it,
[08:55] and if that deal with Todd Blodgett gone
[08:56] through, they would have also been paid
[08:58] for it. We see people like Tina Peters
[09:00] who clearly committed election fraud.
[09:03] She was pardoned for that. She's out of
[09:05] jail now thanks to a Democratic governor
[09:07] who bowed to pressure, and she's showing
[09:09] no remorse, right? The people that that
[09:11] break the law on his behalf, they show
[09:12] no remorse. They act as if the law
[09:15] genuinely doesn't apply to those who are
[09:18] able to work on behalf of Trump. And I
[09:20] feel like what we're trying to set up
[09:22] here, if I was the Trump administration,
[09:24] is that old quote about for my friends
[09:27] everything, for my enemies the law. Like
[09:29] the rest of us are still beholden to the
[09:31] law, but the people who are acting on
[09:34] behalf of Trump will will be.
[09:36] Yeah, I mean, what you're describing is
[09:37] a different It's a different political
[09:39] system.
[09:40] It's It's a political system in which
[09:44] I would take it a a tiny step further.
[09:46] The The people who are close to the
[09:47] president are immune and they're
[09:50] rewarded
[09:51] for breaking the law on his behalf, not
[09:53] just because it's in his interest, but
[09:55] because when they do so, it demonstrates
[09:57] that we're in a different kind of
[09:58] system, which is meant to be
[10:00] demoralizing for his opponents. And
[10:02] then, it's not just the law for his
[10:04] enemies, but it's the law directed and
[10:06] engineered um and manipulated against
[10:08] specific personal enemies, which is also
[10:10] meant to be a lesson for the rest of us
[10:12] that we should be afraid because the law
[10:14] isn't going to protect us. The law is
[10:15] just going to be used to come after us.
[10:18] And that is a system. It's not our
[10:21] system. Like our system is is very
[10:23] flawed and it's unjust towards whole
[10:25] groups like African Americans and there
[10:26] are all kinds of traditional injustices
[10:28] built into it. But in principle,
[10:31] we're supposed to be about the rule of
[10:32] law. This is a different principle. I
[10:35] mean, I think it's just worth
[10:36] emphasizing. It's not a change in
[10:37] degree, it's a change in kind where
[10:39] there is no longer the rule of law.
[10:41] There is the law for the ruler, which is
[10:43] an entirely different kind of system.
[10:46] And it's a system, by the way, in which
[10:48] not only people would have more reason
[10:49] to be afraid, but also the economy
[10:51] collapses. Um and just I mean, that may
[10:54] not be the argument which is most
[10:55] important to your viewers, but for for a
[10:57] lot of folks who are, you know, business
[10:59] people or cared about the stock market
[11:01] or cared about the GDP, if you move from
[11:03] rule of law to law for the ruler, and
[11:05] this is a lesson of Hungary and Russia
[11:07] and the and the and the data just piles
[11:09] on, your economy's going to collapse.
[11:11] Your economy's going to be much smaller
[11:13] than it is right now, right? I mean, the
[11:16] whole Russian stock market is like a
[11:17] block in Chicago. It Your economy
[11:19] becomes much smaller and everybody is
[11:22] much poorer because you can't look ahead
[11:25] to any kind of predictability because
[11:27] you have to design everything in terms
[11:28] of the expectations of how a few people
[11:30] are going to behave. I think the
[11:32] opposition has to talk about enforcing
[11:34] the law, and not just in a general way,
[11:36] but like enforcing the law specifically
[11:38] on people who are breaking the law now.
[11:40] And that ties into November because in
[11:42] order to prevent November from being
[11:44] rigged, the people who are thinking
[11:46] about rigging it have to at least
[11:48] consider the possibility that they might
[11:50] go to prison for doing stuff which is
[11:52] obviously terrible and illegal.
[11:54] Yeah, that they're not all going to
[11:55] become Tina Peters who break the law and
[11:57] then get out of jail free. I think
[11:59] that's a really essential part. I mean,
[12:01] one of the things you've been talking
[12:02] about a lot lately is this thing called
[12:04] superpower suicide. And I want you to
[12:06] expand a little bit on that because you
[12:08] point out that, you know, empires rise
[12:10] and fall. They have throughout history.
[12:12] But in your knowledge, no state has ever
[12:14] chosen to kill its own power with such
[12:17] speed. And it's the speed in in many
[12:20] ways that makes it unable for regular
[12:22] people to see what's happening clearly.
[12:24] And even those of us who, you know,
[12:25] actively oppose Trump and the regime, I
[12:28] think people are still trying to come to
[12:30] some sort of conclusion in their minds
[12:32] that there has to be like a national
[12:34] interest or a grand plan that he might
[12:36] have
[12:37] here. But that's not actually a proper
[12:39] perspective, that it's what you call
[12:41] anti-strategic self-slaughter. Would you
[12:43] mind expanding on that?
[12:45] Yeah, and I appreciate the way you've
[12:47] set it up because I think there is a
[12:49] kind of sleepwalking or pantomime
[12:52] when it comes to foreign affairs that,
[12:55] you know, somehow we want to think there
[12:58] is a plan or there's an interpretation
[13:00] of national interest. And there is no
[13:02] plan, and there's no interpretation of
[13:04] national interest, and
[13:06] none of the things that they even say
[13:08] they care about have they been
[13:10] consistent about. Like if they said they
[13:12] The one thing they claimed that they
[13:14] would be doing was standing up to China,
[13:15] which they have not palpably not done.
[13:19] In fact, they've done the opposite, and
[13:20] the the general thrust of the Trump
[13:22] administration is to hand the world over
[13:24] to China and to give the Chinese a lift
[13:27] which they can't possibly even have
[13:29] expected from us if we just address this
[13:31] in terms of power.
[13:34] Trump is starting stupid wars, he's
[13:37] losing them in ways that are
[13:38] spectacularly obvious to the entire
[13:41] world, right? Like that we that was that
[13:43] it was a dumb war towards Iran, that it
[13:45] was prosecuted in a dumb way, and that
[13:47] we've lost it in humiliating fashion is
[13:49] obvious to everybody who's not inside
[13:51] the borders of the United States. I
[13:52] realize it's obvious to some of us
[13:53] inside the US, but it's obvious to
[13:55] everybody outside the United States. But
[13:57] that's just a symptom, right? That you
[13:58] would fight bad wars and then lose them
[14:01] on your own terms very quickly when
[14:03] you're supposed to be a superpower.
[14:04] That's a symptom. It's a symptom of not
[14:07] having a functional government where
[14:09] plans are reviewed. It's a symptom of
[14:12] oligarchical politics where a few people
[14:15] are making decisions on the basis of
[14:17] either their emotions or how they can
[14:19] make a quick buck. It's a symptom of a
[14:22] larger collapse of the state in which
[14:24] state assets like the military, which
[14:26] were built up by prior administrations,
[14:28] are now being consumed by someone who
[14:31] has a very specific talent that allows
[14:33] them to get to power but has no idea how
[14:36] you would manage power and actually no
[14:37] concern about managing or preserving the
[14:40] power of the state. It's he doesn't
[14:42] think about the state, doesn't think
[14:44] about government as a category. It's
[14:46] just kind of play things that make him
[14:48] feel better or might allow people around
[14:50] him to become richer. And if we look at
[14:51] the longer term, the superpower suicide
[14:54] is even clearer because in driving away
[14:56] immigrant graduate students and
[14:58] undergraduate students, we're
[14:59] undermining our own future in science.
[15:02] By making science grant grant giving
[15:04] itself a function of what politically
[15:07] motivated bureaucrats think is correct,
[15:09] we're undoing our own future in science.
[15:11] In attacking the universities and in
[15:13] sponsoring the wrong kinds of
[15:14] technology, we're deliberately putting
[15:16] ourselves behind the Chinese and driving
[15:19] ourselves backward in terms of future
[15:21] life expectancy, future standard of
[15:23] living, future pretty much everything.
[15:26] In privatizing education and so on,
[15:28] we're making it harder for parents and
[15:30] kids who are in K-12. So, like, from the
[15:33] top to the bottom, from like lost wars
[15:35] to the general the generational
[15:37] reproduction of power by way of science,
[15:40] technology, education, this
[15:41] administration is doing everything
[15:43] possible to collapse American power. And
[15:47] that's, you know, it's a weird
[15:48] historical reality and I I'm sure one of
[15:50] my colleagues will eventually correct me
[15:51] because that's what historians do, they
[15:52] eventually correct one another. But I
[15:54] personally can't think of an example of
[15:57] a major power that has, as a result of
[16:00] its own choices, lost so much power of
[16:04] every kind, from soft power to hard
[16:06] power, so quickly as the Trump
[16:08] administration has done. So, that's what
[16:10] that's what I mean by superpower
[16:11] suicide. It's a choice. We chose Trump.
[16:15] Trump, not you and I personally, but we
[16:16] as a people chose Trump. Trump is Trump
[16:18] is choosing to destroy state power. In
[16:21] that sense, it's like suicide. And you
[16:23] were starting from a high place, a
[16:24] superpower place, and we're diving
[16:26] downward at a in in in a radical way
[16:29] towards a very hard surface.
[16:31] Yeah, that's what it feels like and I
[16:33] think that's why it's hard for those of
[16:34] us paying attention who live here to
[16:36] watch it. It's a little bit like being
[16:38] in the backseat of a car with a drunk
[16:39] driver who's going 500 miles an hour.
[16:41] Like, it's just you have to wrestle the
[16:44] wheel away from them, but it it there is
[16:45] a feeling of like helplessness to it.
[16:49] Yeah, I think we have to be thinking in
[16:50] terms of, you know, new beginnings.
[16:53] Superpower suicide is only possible
[16:56] because we're in a political system and
[16:59] an economic system and a social system
[17:01] where somebody like Trump could come to
[17:02] power. And so, what Trump is doing is
[17:04] terrible, but there are prior weaknesses
[17:07] in the system which allowed somebody
[17:08] like him to come to power. And so, if we
[17:11] get through November and if we have a
[17:13] big coalition and if we have a mandate
[17:15] for change, and by we I don't just mean
[17:17] the Democratic Party, I mean I mean
[17:19] people who want the country to survive
[17:21] and thrive. If there's a big coalition
[17:23] and a big victory along those lines, we
[17:26] have to be talking about how we
[17:27] transform the country. Because the
[17:29] superpower suicide, like it's awful, but
[17:32] it's also in its own way just a symptom
[17:33] of a larger problem, which is we've
[17:34] allowed it to become too easy for too
[17:36] much wealth to be concentrated in too
[17:38] few hands. We've we've made it too easy
[17:40] for a small groups of people to make
[17:41] decisions that affect everybody else.
[17:43] We've allowed a concentration of power
[17:46] to warp everything for everybody. And as
[17:48] drastic as superpower suicide is, it's
[17:50] really just like it's a sign that
[17:53] everybody outside us in the world can
[17:54] see of what we're doing to ourselves.
[17:56] And so we have to take in what we're
[17:57] doing to ourselves and start addressing
[17:59] the fundamental problems.
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[20:56] And so, we have to take in what we're
[20:57] doing to ourselves and start addressing
[20:59] the fundamental problems.
[21:01] Yeah, and like you're saying, it doesn't
[21:02] it this isn't really a Democrat versus
[21:04] Republican thing. This is people who
[21:05] would like to see America not die versus
[21:08] people who are fine with it happening
[21:10] because, you know, like you said, the
[21:13] United States is spending billions and
[21:14] billions of dollars a day to lose a war,
[21:17] but it's enriching the oligarchs, it's
[21:19] impoverishing the citizens, it's rising
[21:22] our prices everywhere, it's sabotaging
[21:24] our alliances around the world, and it's
[21:26] strengthening our enemies. Like, if you
[21:28] don't want that, then you're going to be
[21:29] on the opposite side of this. I mean,
[21:31] because if I think about like what is
[21:32] the end goal here for Trump? Like,
[21:34] what's
[21:35] What's his end goal? And is it even his
[21:37] goal? Because at the end of the day, I
[21:39] don't think he's the one making the
[21:40] calls on policies or what the plans are.
[21:42] You know, it's the billionaires and the
[21:44] technocrats and the Christian
[21:45] nationalists and the white supremacists
[21:46] and the Heritage Foundation and the
[21:48] Federalist Society. And Donald Trump in
[21:50] many ways is just a a vehicle for them
[21:52] to drive to their end. What do you think
[21:55] the end goal is here?
[21:57] I want to start from this relationship
[21:59] that you're sketching out between Trump
[22:01] and other people because it it is
[22:03] important as a starting point. Just to
[22:05] note that Trump as a person is
[22:08] completely out of his depth with this
[22:11] stuff. I mean, one one of our national
[22:13] fairy tales is that he's a negotiator or
[22:15] he has some kind of negotiating skills.
[22:18] He does not. He's he's a charismatic
[22:19] performer who played a negotiator on TV,
[22:22] but he does not have negotiating skills.
[22:24] He's terrible at it. He lacks all the
[22:26] necessary attributes. He's impatient. He
[22:29] always gives away the game. He always
[22:32] When he says calls his shots, I always
[22:33] think, "Yeah, like you're calling your
[22:35] shots in the sense that you're telling
[22:36] someone what you're about to do." Like,
[22:38] in that sense, you always are calling
[22:39] your shots. That's the only sense in
[22:40] which he calls his shots. He's like,
[22:42] "I'm going to shoot I'm going to shoot a
[22:43] 10-footer off the bank." Like, in that
[22:45] sense, he's calling his shots. He lacks
[22:47] consistency. He and he lacks a sense of
[22:49] what the final goal is. And if you you
[22:51] don't know what the final goal is, you
[22:52] can't really negotiate. You know, a
[22:54] second level of problems is that he is
[22:56] he believes the last person who talked
[22:57] to him. He's psychologically incredibly
[22:59] vulnerable to people who are good
[23:00] managers of minds, like like Putin, for
[23:02] example, or Netanyahu. And he's easily
[23:04] bribable. And he's bribable for
[23:06] comically small amounts of money, which
[23:08] is like makes the whole thing even more
[23:09] kind of petty and tragic and squalid.
[23:11] Like the amount you need much more money
[23:13] to bribe other foreign autocrats. I
[23:15] mean, Trump, you can bribe him for such
[23:17] like basically for
[23:19] on the scale of international
[23:20] corruption, you can bribe Trump for
[23:22] petty cash. And like that's just like
[23:23] it's sad and it's a it's not just evil,
[23:25] but it's like also kind of embarrassing
[23:27] at the at the same time. So, anyway,
[23:29] personally he's out of his depth. He
[23:31] does not understand anything about
[23:32] negotiation. He does not understand
[23:34] anything about about war, right? He
[23:36] likes to watch things go boom. He has
[23:38] some films about big boats that he
[23:40] likes, but he doesn't understand the
[23:42] politics of war. He doesn't understand
[23:44] how war is politics. He thinks it's like
[23:46] a video game or a movie where like you
[23:48] push a button and then the other guy
[23:49] surrenders. But war is fundamentally an
[23:52] intense form of politics, and politics
[23:54] is not what he's good at. He's good at
[23:55] discourse. He's good at framing things.
[23:57] He's good at getting you to do stuff for
[23:59] him. But war is a much higher level of
[24:01] politics than he is prepared for. And
[24:04] you basically you see that you see that
[24:05] every day. So, he is out of his depth.
[24:08] He's gotten himself into a situation
[24:09] that even if all the other stuff he was
[24:11] saying weren't true, he wouldn't know
[24:12] how to handle all of this. I think his
[24:14] original idea,
[24:16] which as you say also I think it was
[24:18] only very very partially his. I think it
[24:20] was put into his head. But his original
[24:22] idea was Iran is going to surrender on
[24:24] day one or day two or day three. It's
[24:26] going to be an amazing victory for me.
[24:28] People are going to dance in the
[24:29] streets. And then I'm going to move on
[24:30] to Cuba. I think like he was thinking
[24:32] it's like Venezuela was fun, and then
[24:35] Iran's going to be fun, and we're going
[24:37] to move on, right? And they have to
[24:38] surrender cuz we're the bigger power or
[24:40] whatever. So, I think his goal was to
[24:42] pass through Iran on the way to like a
[24:44] series of showpiece military victories
[24:47] which were going to lead him towards
[24:48] victory in November. I think in so far
[24:50] as he had any thinking, it was like
[24:52] that. But honestly, I think his call
[24:54] into Fox and Friends the next morning It
[24:57] is what's most revelatory. Like it was
[24:59] clear that after Venezuela he was on an
[25:01] adrenaline high or some kind of high and
[25:04] that he just wanted more. Like when he
[25:05] said, "We can do this again. Like no one
[25:07] can stop us." I think there was just a
[25:09] level of like personal excitement there
[25:11] which if you are Israel or someone else
[25:14] who's interested in a war, like that
[25:16] psychology is just a vulnerability. Like
[25:18] you just know exactly what you're
[25:20] pitching at to make this next war
[25:22] happen. So I The other thing I want to
[25:24] point out is that I think it's hard for
[25:26] him to stop this war because people are
[25:28] making tons of money around it and the
[25:30] people who are making money are his
[25:32] relatives or they're people he admires
[25:34] like Putin. And so when like the people
[25:37] you admire are making money, and the
[25:39] people you listen to are making money,
[25:41] it's not That makes it harder to stop
[25:43] the war, right? Cuz why you know, why
[25:45] are we in it? Who knows? But people
[25:47] around him are making tons of money and
[25:49] it's just, you know, a very simple
[25:51] political point that if you're in a
[25:53] system which is about an oligarchical
[25:56] cluster of people, American and
[25:58] otherwise, if that oligarchical cluster
[26:00] is making money on something, that
[26:02] something is unlikely to stop anytime
[26:05] soon. And then a final thing I want to
[26:06] add is that I think he's also, and this
[26:09] is like Let's put a taboo on saying it,
[26:10] so I'm going to say it. But I think he's
[26:12] also hoping for terrorism. Like I think
[26:14] he's in a funny like he's in a funny
[26:16] situation with the Iranians now where I
[26:18] think he wants the war to go on so that
[26:21] the Iranians will blow something up in
[26:22] the US.
[26:23] Yeah.
[26:24] And I think the Iranians are aware of
[26:26] this
[26:27] and therefore not doing it, right? So I
[26:29] think like I think that's where we are.
[26:31] It's like the It's like the old joke
[26:32] about the sadists, you know, the sadist
[26:33] and the masochist, like, you know, hit
[26:35] me, no. I think that's where we are with
[26:37] Trump and the Iranians. Like he's like
[26:38] hit me and they're like, no. I think he
[26:40] would very much like for something to
[26:41] blow up in the US because he would use
[26:43] that to change, you know, try to use
[26:45] that to change the nature of politics to
[26:47] say that we can't have elections or
[26:49] whatever. But I think the Iran The
[26:51] Iranians are on to him about this. And
[26:53] it's not that this is beyond their
[26:54] capabilities. And I would add the fact
[26:56] that Trump has completely gutted our
[26:58] intelligence establishment and diverted
[27:00] the FBI assets which were related to
[27:02] this kind of thing to immigration. That
[27:04] he's put someone who's totally
[27:05] incompetent in charge of national
[27:07] intelligence. That all of this stuff
[27:09] also is like an invitation to a
[27:11] terrorist attack. So, I think if we're
[27:12] talking about Trump's motives at
[27:14] present, you know, as we get into summer
[27:15] 2026, I think one of them is that he's
[27:18] at some level he's hoping the Iranians
[27:20] will blow something up in the US and
[27:21] that that would allow him to take
[27:22] advantage of the situation.
[27:24] Well, I mean I I think that actually
[27:26] makes a lot of sense. And I also think
[27:27] that it comes back to, you know, a
[27:29] leader is only so good as the people
[27:30] they surround themselves with, right?
[27:32] So, like if I say, "Oh, it's going to be
[27:33] really fun. We're going to go into Iran.
[27:35] We're going to shoot some stuff up.
[27:36] We're going to blow up some bombs.
[27:37] They're going to
[27:38] be so sad that we were there and they're
[27:40] going to capitulate to us." And, you
[27:42] know, any of us that were paying
[27:43] attention we're like, "Of course they're
[27:44] going to close the Strait of Hormuz." We
[27:45] all knew that. Like it's not This isn't
[27:47] surprising. And except if you're, you
[27:50] know, Secretary of Defense, in this case
[27:52] Secretary of War is someone like Pete
[27:54] Hegseth. He also wants to make things go
[27:56] boom. If you're on national soil and
[27:58] you're like, "Who's in charge of
[27:59] counterterrorism?" The guy's like 22
[28:01] years old. He hasn't had any jobs. And
[28:03] then the head of the FBI is Kash Patel
[28:05] who's spending most of his time kind of
[28:07] cruising around with his girlfriend on
[28:08] private jets. And you're like, "These
[28:10] are not the right people to tell him
[28:11] no." No one's going to tell him no. He's
[28:13] now surrounded with people that won't
[28:15] tell him anything other than what he
[28:16] wants to hear. I think it's very
[28:18] possible he thinks he's winning the war
[28:20] sometimes. I think people are telling
[28:21] him the wrong thing. Because for him
[28:23] it's all about face. just that he's
[28:25] easily bribable, in my opinion, or that
[28:27] he's bribable with small amounts of
[28:29] money. It's that he will do anything for
[28:31] people that make him feel special. And I
[28:33] think that all of the people who are
[28:34] smarter than him know this. So, you
[28:37] know, I tell you you're so smart and
[28:38] brilliant and I love being around you
[28:40] and aren't you just the most wonderful
[28:41] leader? And he's like, "Well, he's
[28:42] always been nice to me." And you think,
[28:45] "Bro, you're so easy to trick." I mean,
[28:48] when Trump starts talking about his
[28:50] illegal third term and making the merch
[28:53] and, you know, the Latin American
[28:54] countries are like, yeah, he's going to
[28:56] be doing a third term. It reminds me so
[28:58] much of what happened with Putin in
[29:00] Russia and how they changed the rules so
[29:02] he could continue to be president, then
[29:04] he went down to prime minister, then was
[29:05] able to come back and be president
[29:07] again, and then change the rules again
[29:08] so he could serve for longer, and now he
[29:10] can't lose elections. That's the path I
[29:12] think that Trump would like to see us
[29:14] on, but you said that this really
[29:15] reminds you more of late Stalinism. Can
[29:18] you expand on that?
[29:19] I'm not sure there's a one like
[29:20] historical analogy that captures
[29:23] everything, and I appreciate you
[29:25] mentioning Latin America because it's a
[29:26] good example of how
[29:28] when people who have seen something look
[29:31] at our country, they say, you know, I've
[29:33] actually seen that thing before. Like
[29:35] I've I've watched this movie and I know
[29:37] what the sequel is like because, you
[29:39] know, we were there. So, Russia can be
[29:41] helpful and Latin America can be
[29:42] helpful. Latin America's helpful for the
[29:43] basic point that people who try one coup
[29:46] tend to try another one. You know, like
[29:48] coups are generally practiced. It's not
[29:49] that your first coup attempt always
[29:51] succeeds, but if you let people try
[29:53] again, which we as a country for some
[29:55] reason have decided is the right thing
[29:56] to do, then you you you are you're going
[29:58] to go for it. I mean, like Trump is
[30:00] there's nothing in Trump's experience
[30:01] which has taught him he shouldn't try
[30:04] again, right? Because he tried the first
[30:05] time and nothing literally nothing bad
[30:08] happened to him. He became president of
[30:09] the United States. I want to just take
[30:11] this question in a couple directions.
[30:12] One is that that Trump is going to have
[30:15] third term. It's crazy and dumb and and
[30:18] the republic would die first. But, on
[30:20] the one side, we have to break up the
[30:23] confidence of the people on his side who
[30:26] think that he's irresistible, right? So,
[30:28] a lot of his kind of politics, whether
[30:30] it's you want to call it strongman
[30:32] politics or authoritarianism or fascism,
[30:34] a lot of it depends on this notion of
[30:36] this indispensable man. Like that the
[30:38] nation just couldn't possibly exist. We
[30:41] wouldn't know what to eat for breakfast,
[30:42] you know, without this one guy, right?
[30:45] And so, you have to break that. Like,
[30:48] you have to laugh at him, you have to
[30:49] mock him, you have to bring him down,
[30:51] not just because it's enjoyable. In
[30:53] fact, when it's too enjoyable, you
[30:54] shouldn't do it, but because it's
[30:57] necessary to reveal basic truths to
[31:00] people, including his supporters. Like,
[31:02] the fact that this guy is ludicrously
[31:03] weak and like every everything he
[31:05] touches turns to loss, right? Like, how
[31:08] the Knicks hadn't lost for how long
[31:10] before he went to Madison Square Garden,
[31:11] right?
[31:12] 14 games in a row they won and then it's
[31:14] like
[31:15] Yeah, but like, I mean, more seriously,
[31:17] like, he tries to help Russia win a war
[31:19] and, you know, even there he fails.
[31:21] Like, it's it's a sort of incredible his
[31:23] power to turn people into losers.
[31:25] And so, one has to get across that he's
[31:27] not indispensable, that you could push
[31:30] him aside and actually the world would
[31:31] look a lot brighter. And then, on the
[31:34] other side, there's the problem of
[31:35] inevitability. Like, yeah, you know,
[31:38] this and this is not his supporters,
[31:39] this is more like middle-of-the-road
[31:40] people or our people. Like, yeah, you
[31:43] know, like, there there was a situation
[31:45] and he took advantage and like, we just
[31:46] have to kind of wait it out. No, we
[31:48] don't have to wait it out. Like, it's
[31:49] not inevitable. We have to actually
[31:51] think about victory. We have to think
[31:52] about winning. We have to think about
[31:54] overwhelming electoral victories. We
[31:56] they have to think about crushing
[31:58] defeats for their side. And we have to
[31:59] think not about, you know, just winning
[32:02] a big victory for its own sake, but how
[32:04] we then transform things afterwards. So,
[32:07] we have to take like this presence that
[32:09] he has and and and get beyond the
[32:11] presence and into into a different kind
[32:13] of presence. That's the other thing that
[32:15] I wanted to say about about this is that
[32:17] it works until it doesn't work. His kind
[32:19] of politics works until it doesn't work
[32:20] and you have to push it till it breaks.
[32:23] You have to show the weaknesses and you
[32:25] have to use comedy sometimes to show
[32:26] those weaknesses. But also, when you're
[32:28] what you you can't just think it was
[32:30] inevitable that he rose and now it's
[32:32] inevitable he's going to fall. You have
[32:34] to like you have to push.
[32:36] Yeah, you have to do the work to make
[32:37] that happen.
[32:38] Yeah, you have to do the work, like the
[32:39] low-level organizational work, the
[32:41] protest work, the work that organizers
[32:43] are doing. You have to recognize them
[32:45] and and and support them financially and
[32:47] morally. You have to push that thing off
[32:49] the pedestal, and then you got to be
[32:50] ready to like replace that false statue
[32:52] with something real.
[32:54] Yeah, I think people get frustrated cuz
[32:56] they're like, if protesting ceases to
[32:58] work, if no one cares if we're
[32:59] protesting, or if they're giving us
[33:01] areas, I was watching a protest recently
[33:04] outside of uh the Delaney Detention
[33:06] Center, and they were saying, "This is
[33:08] the the area for First Amendment
[33:11] rights." And they were like, "What do
[33:12] you mean the area for First" They're
[33:14] like, "You have to be in the area to use
[33:16] your First Amendment rights." And they
[33:16] were like And all the protesters are
[33:17] like, "That's not a thing, man." So, if
[33:20] protesting ceases to work, if laws cease
[33:22] to matter, if the government is no
[33:24] longer interested in its people trying
[33:26] to rig elections so it can't lose, the
[33:28] question becomes like, can Americans do
[33:31] what say Hungary did and overcome all of
[33:34] these authoritarian sort of behaviors
[33:37] that Orbán was doing, you know, changing
[33:38] the constitution, changing the courts,
[33:40] changing the media? Can we do that with
[33:42] a mass turnout in our elections? Because
[33:44] there's a lot of people right now who
[33:45] are worried that we can't vote our way
[33:47] out of this. And I don't think that's
[33:49] necessarily true, but what are your
[33:51] thoughts on that?
[33:53] So, our amazing fabulous Goldendoodle is
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[37:21] There's a lot of people right now who
[37:22] are worried that we can't vote our way
[37:24] out of this. And I don't think that's
[37:26] necessarily true, but what are your
[37:28] thoughts on that?
[37:30] I think
[37:32] voting is absolutely necessary and high
[37:35] turnouts are absolutely necessary and a
[37:38] big electoral victory is absolutely
[37:39] necessary.
[37:41] But I think a lot hangs on how you
[37:44] interpret that big electoral victory and
[37:47] what you think you've won and for whom
[37:50] you think you've won and why. So, I
[37:53] would say it it's a necessary condition
[37:56] but not a sufficient one. I think the
[37:58] sufficient conditions are
[38:00] one,
[38:02] the people who win recognize that
[38:04] they've won as part of a big coalition
[38:07] and not just as the Democratic Party.
[38:09] And that they their victory is on behalf
[38:11] of people who voted for them and also on
[38:14] on behalf of people who didn't vote but
[38:16] are super alienated and want things to
[38:18] change drastically. The Democrats I I
[38:21] wish they would recognize that public
[38:23] opinion is much more radical than they
[38:24] are on almost every issue and that when
[38:27] they win, it's not just because people
[38:29] don't like Trump and like a middle of
[38:31] the road Democrat way. It's that people
[38:33] have started to see Trump as a part of
[38:36] the problem rather than as part of the
[38:37] solution. So, I mean and I of course
[38:39] never saw Trump as part of the solution.
[38:40] I'm just going to like try to be
[38:41] empathetic for a moment. It's it's
[38:43] correct to think that there are
[38:45] structural problems in the US and it was
[38:48] incorrect to think that an incompetent
[38:50] one of the oligarch was going to be the
[38:51] solution. But that it was correct to
[38:53] think that there are radical problems.
[38:54] And the way that public opinion is
[38:55] tipping against Trump now is not the way
[38:58] that like Democrats think. It's that
[39:01] like we always hated him and now people
[39:02] realize they hated him, too. It's that
[39:04] people continue to think too much
[39:06] corruption, but now they've begun to
[39:08] realize, "Oh, Trump is like he's part of
[39:10] the problem and not part of the
[39:11] solution, right?" And if you draw that
[39:13] lesson, then you realize as the
[39:14] Democrats, you have to come out of the
[39:16] gate, say we represent a broad
[39:18] coalition, and it's a fighting
[39:20] coalition, and what we're fighting for
[39:22] is a country where money is not in
[39:24] politics, where everybody has a fair
[39:26] shake, where there will be an American
[39:27] dream. I'm not going to give up that
[39:28] term, you know, where there will be an
[39:30] American dream, where your kids can have
[39:31] a better life than you can, where, you
[39:33] know, there's going to be fairness,
[39:34] where there's going to be law. You have
[39:35] to come out fighting with that and you
[39:36] have to have some demonstration shots
[39:39] like we're going to go after people who
[39:41] have broken the law, who have made lots
[39:42] of money, you know, we're going to
[39:43] investigate, we're going to prosecute,
[39:45] we're going to do the things that we can
[39:47] do, but also partly to symbolize that
[39:49] when we have more power, we will do more
[39:51] to make this a country which is which is
[39:53] fair for everybody. I'm not so much
[39:56] worried like I think the Democrats are
[39:58] going to win big. My my gut feeling is
[40:00] that the Democrats are afraid of winning
[40:03] big and that when they win big, it has
[40:05] to be it has to be with a mandate where
[40:09] the mandate is pretty radical. And by
[40:12] radical, I don't mean like extreme left
[40:14] or whatever that would mean. What I mean
[40:16] is money out of politics, wealth
[40:19] redistribution,
[40:20] access to health care, public schools,
[40:22] like things that there is a broad
[40:24] consensus for in this country, the
[40:26] achievement of which would actually
[40:27] radically change, right, the the way the
[40:29] way the country is run. They're going to
[40:30] try to rig things. I don't think it's
[40:32] going to work. We can hold it off by by
[40:35] threatening them with the law and by
[40:36] having and this goes back to
[40:37] demonstrations. One of the things that
[40:39] demonstrations are for is to deter. If
[40:41] you have a lot of protest potential,
[40:43] that makes it harder for them to think
[40:45] that they're actually going to be able
[40:46] to rig stuff. So, that's one of the
[40:47] reasons why you demonstrate now and in
[40:49] the summer and in and in the fall.
[40:50] They're going to try to rig it. I don't
[40:52] think it's going to work. And for me,
[40:53] the big question is what do we do next?
[40:56] Do we think we have a big mandate from a
[40:58] big coalition? Or we just treat it as a
[41:00] traditional midterm victory? Cuz if we
[41:02] treat it as a traditional midterm
[41:03] victory, then we're really lost. I think
[41:05] then we're lost as a country.
[41:08] Yeah, I agree with that. I think that we
[41:10] have to get past the leaders who think
[41:12] we're going back somehow, that we're
[41:13] going to go back to how things were,
[41:15] going back to normal, or the concept of
[41:17] reaching across the aisle, or
[41:18] incrementalism, or centrism, or we just
[41:21] have to all come together here in the
[41:23] center where everyone, you know, you
[41:24] have to say no. The majority of the
[41:26] country wants a higher minimum wage. The
[41:29] majority of the country wants better
[41:30] public education. The majority of the
[41:32] country wants health care, right? 77
[41:34] other countries in the world have been
[41:35] able to do it and we just can't. No,
[41:37] impossible, right? We have to be We have
[41:39] to say we got to this point because
[41:41] people were unhappy. And we're going to
[41:42] acknowledge that people were unhappy.
[41:44] But instead of trying to go back, we're
[41:45] going to go forward and try and deal
[41:47] with the unhappiness that goes from this
[41:49] end of the political spectrum to that
[41:50] end of the political spectrum. And the
[41:52] Democrats need to be bold in that. And
[41:53] if they're not being bold in that, then
[41:55] we have to replace our leadership. We
[41:56] have to put in new uh Democratic
[41:58] representatives. Because at the end of
[42:00] the day, this still is a two-party
[42:02] system, and we're not going to be
[42:02] changing that overnight. This idea that
[42:04] you can third-party vote your way out of
[42:06] this is absolutely not going to happen.
[42:08] But I think I want to sort of before you
[42:09] go, I would like to
[42:11] just say say we get to this point where
[42:13] we get past the midterms and the
[42:17] opposition is able to take back the
[42:19] house, maybe flip the Senate. We have
[42:21] two more years of Trump which we would
[42:22] hope would be sort of a lame duck period
[42:24] where he was held accountable, where the
[42:26] Congress was having hearings on people
[42:29] that broke the law, people that broke
[42:30] the law on his behalf instead of going
[42:32] after, you know, the Hunter Bidens of
[42:33] the world and the left-leaning creators
[42:35] and whoever else they're going after
[42:36] now, ActBlue. But even when Trump is
[42:39] gone, whether that's because he expires
[42:42] or because he is voted out of power, I
[42:45] feel like the culture he created is
[42:48] still going to be here. This idea of
[42:50] loyalty first, law be damned, make sure
[42:53] you get yours, corruption is normal, and
[42:56] that is what I would like to see the
[42:57] opposition work against. And I think the
[43:00] important thing is what you're saying is
[43:01] that like the first thing they should do
[43:02] is get money out of politics.
[43:04] The only way to be against corruption is
[43:06] to is to not be corrupt.
[43:08] And the only way not to be corrupt is to
[43:10] be in favor of getting the money out of
[43:11] politics.
[43:13] It's people are angry about corruption,
[43:15] but they're only a little bit more angry
[43:17] about Trump than they are about
[43:19] everything else. So it's like, you know,
[43:20] is is Trump corrupt 76%? Is the system
[43:23] corrupt 70%? And so you have to start by
[43:27] saying we are not the system you're
[43:29] talking about because we want to pass
[43:31] laws so that we ourselves can't get
[43:33] campaign finance contributions. We We
[43:36] want to pass laws so that there are no
[43:37] PACs, there are no super PACs. We're
[43:39] going to try to do that. And Trump can
[43:41] vote can veto it for now, but like we're
[43:43] going to be the people who do that. And
[43:44] then you put some daylight between
[43:45] yourselves and the Republicans that way.
[43:48] And but also you just you you you you
[43:49] you tell people that we understand that
[43:51] you're against corruption, we're against
[43:52] corruption, too. And the corruption
[43:54] issue really does matter to people. It
[43:56] matters deeply, and it's a way to
[43:59] reconfigure politics so that it's not so
[44:01] much right-left, so much us-them because
[44:04] most folks agree that when all the money
[44:07] is in the hands of a few people, that
[44:08] blocks things for everybody else. It's
[44:10] common sense that happens to be true.
[44:12] The recent example of Hungary confirms
[44:14] this. I mean, that's what Magyar ran on.
[44:16] He linked the issue of what the
[44:19] Democrats call, and I hate this word,
[44:20] affordability. He linked the issue of
[44:22] affordability with corruption. He said,
[44:25] "Look, there's a reason why your
[44:27] everyday life is hard, and that reason
[44:29] is that the corrupt oligarchs are
[44:31] controlling the money flows." And that
[44:33] happens to be true. Right? It's true.
[44:35] It's true in Hungary, and it's true in
[44:37] the United States as well. And if you
[44:38] can get people to see, "Hey, you know,
[44:42] the gas pump, the stuff that you know
[44:43] how to articulate, right? The stuff that
[44:45] you know everyday is hard. You don't
[44:46] have enough money to go to the
[44:47] hospital." That that everyday stuff is
[44:50] because
[44:51] people are corrupt. It's because wealth
[44:54] is in too few hands. If you can make
[44:55] that connection, then you're winning on
[44:57] both affordability and democracy, right?
[45:00] And like this thing where the Democrats
[45:01] are like, "Well, it can't be democracy
[45:03] cuz it has to be affordability." No,
[45:05] it's both at the same time, and if you
[45:07] can link them both, you win. But if you
[45:10] try to win on either one of them, like
[45:12] if you just say democracy, democracy,
[45:14] you'll lose because people think
[45:15] democracy I mean, I like democracy, and
[45:17] I think we have to be much more
[45:18] democratic, obviously. But if you say
[45:20] democracy, what it triggers is the
[45:21] status quo. And nobody likes the status
[45:23] quo. I agree with you completely.
[45:25] Everybody hates the status quo. There's
[45:26] no way you can't go back. You can't do
[45:28] that. So, you can't win on that, but you
[45:30] also can't win on affordability because
[45:32] if you say affordability, affordability,
[45:34] and then you win,
[45:35] then you've told yourself that you have
[45:37] a mandate to like try to drive down gas
[45:39] prices a couple cents. But you haven't
[45:42] talked to yourself and your voters about
[45:44] the real reasons why affordability, or
[45:47] as I would prefer, quality of life, or
[45:49] the sense of a future, or social
[45:51] mobility, you haven't talked to people
[45:53] or you haven't talked to yourself about
[45:54] what the real reasons for all this is.
[45:56] So, you got to bring it together. You
[45:57] have to be able to say, "Life is hard
[45:59] because they're corrupt, and we have
[46:01] ways to fix it, and when we have the
[46:03] power, we're going to fix it. And if we
[46:05] don't have enough power, we're at least
[46:06] going to fix it by going after a few
[46:08] targeted cases of obvious criminal
[46:10] oligarchs. And that's that's that's act
[46:12] one.
[46:13] Yeah, and I think people can understand
[46:15] that. I don't even think you need to be
[46:16] a big political nerd to follow that. I
[46:19] mean, you're like, you we can't afford
[46:20] this because of that. We can't afford
[46:22] this. We have enough money for a golden
[46:25] ballroom, to cover these statues in gold
[46:27] leaf, to build a UFC thing on the lawn.
[46:30] All the people that are putting money
[46:31] towards the ballroom all got sweet
[46:33] government deals. The Trump family has
[46:36] all increased their wealth between 50
[46:38] and 100% in the last 2 years, which is
[46:42] insane. And I think people can say that.
[46:44] They can be like, my wallet is empty and
[46:46] their wallet is literally drowning.
[46:48] They're buying islands in Albania, you
[46:50] know? So, I think that is something that
[46:52] people can understand, even if they're
[46:53] not particularly politically savvy.
[46:56] It's very basic and it's very common
[46:58] sensical, but it also it starts to touch
[47:00] on things that are symbolic, too. Like,
[47:02] the White House has been turned into a
[47:04] laundromat.
[47:05] You know, that's they've turned the
[47:07] White House, just like Trump Tower was,
[47:09] it was a laundromat. It wasn't a real
[47:10] estate investment, it was a place for
[47:12] laundering money. And now they've turned
[47:13] the White House into the same thing. You
[47:15] put a little money into it and
[47:16] miraculously you get a thousand times
[47:18] return on your investment, you know?
[47:19] Yeah.
[47:20] It's not just a matter of people wanting
[47:21] to have their own lives back. But I
[47:24] think they at a certain point it becomes
[47:25] a matter of, do you really believe that
[47:28] your country has any integrity, you
[47:30] know? And like that, there's an
[47:31] emotional chord here, too, which I think
[47:33] can be struck, that fairness isn't just
[47:35] about, you know, me and and my family,
[47:38] but fairness is also about, look, is the
[47:39] White House the people's house, you
[47:41] know, or is it just a laundromat for a
[47:44] rich guy and the people who happen to be
[47:45] his friends?
[47:46] Yeah. I mean, if you look at the 250th
[47:48] anniversary, is that a celebration for
[47:50] the American people, or is it a
[47:52] celebration for the closest people to
[47:55] our president who pay him money to be
[47:57] there. Those corporate tickets are $1.5
[48:00] million each and you tell me who's going
[48:01] to be collecting the ticket fees. It
[48:03] won't be the American people. I want to
[48:05] thank you so much for joining us today,
[48:07] Tim. I mean, before you go, do you have
[48:09] any last words for those of us who are
[48:11] terrified we're losing our country to
[48:13] this madman or any words that might
[48:15] encourage us to keep going and not give
[48:17] up?
[48:17] Look,
[48:18] it has to be joyful and I know that's a
[48:22] hard word when there are reasons to be
[48:23] afraid.
[48:24] Yeah.
[48:25] But when things could be much much
[48:29] better
[48:30] than they are now. And this thing that
[48:33] we call resistance is also creating the
[48:36] conditions for that America where things
[48:38] are much much better. Because
[48:41] as you've said quite rightly all the way
[48:43] through this conversation, it's not all
[48:44] about him in various ways. The only
[48:48] thing we bring to what comes after is
[48:51] what we are now. That's all we bring.
[48:53] And so if we are joyful and cooperative
[48:57] and effective and we understand that we
[49:00] can win, then when we get to the place
[49:03] which is and feels like a victory, we'll
[49:06] be much better off. So, yeah, there are
[49:09] reasons to worry and yes, there are ways
[49:12] things can go horribly wrong, but their
[49:14] power position is not great. On their
[49:17] side, they are very very very concerned.
[49:21] More concerned than we are, I would
[49:23] point out. They just do a better They
[49:24] They're much less like They They share
[49:26] less, you know. But they are very
[49:28] worried and they have good reason to be
[49:30] worried. Their position is a weak one.
[49:32] You wouldn't be trying to change every
[49:34] single
[49:34] Yeah.
[49:35] election and every single way we vote
[49:37] and taking away people's votes and
[49:38] trying to pass the Save Act and changing
[49:40] the gerrymanders and making having if
[49:42] you were feeling like you had a winning
[49:44] position.
[49:45] Yeah. So, they they know that they're in
[49:47] a losing position and it's up for us to
[49:49] call them losers and it's up for us to
[49:51] It's up to us to make them lose. But
[49:53] above all, it's up to us, as we resist,
[49:56] to think about how we are going to make
[49:58] things better. And to be aware that like
[50:00] that's ultimately what it is all about.
[50:02] It's about making things much better
[50:04] than they are. And that's that's the
[50:06] joyful part of it. I mean, there is
[50:08] there is a kind of special joy in all of
[50:10] this. History gives us a chance to make
[50:13] a difference. We we have that chance to
[50:15] make a difference, and we should be
[50:17] embracing that and accepting that like
[50:19] as as an opportunity. And as an
[50:21] opportunity to make things better for
[50:23] ourselves and for others.
[50:25] Yeah, don't just think we don't want
[50:27] this. Think what do we want? And how do
[50:31] we get that? That seems much more
[50:33] hopeful.
[50:34] Yeah, and what kind of a person am I am
[50:35] I making myself, right? Because if we
[50:38] all make ourselves a tiny bit better at
[50:41] local organizing, if we all make
[50:43] ourselves a tiny bit better at reaching
[50:45] out to other people, if we take
[50:46] advantage of this crisis to make
[50:49] something of ourselves in cooperation
[50:51] with others, that will be enough.
[50:54] That will be enough, and it will be a
[50:55] reason to feel good about ourselves
[50:57] later. Like I, you know, I did my thing.
[50:59] I came up with my thing to do, and I did
[51:00] that thing.
[51:02] Yeah, so don't isolate yourself, people.
[51:05] Find your community and work together,
[51:06] and know that you did the thing when the
[51:08] victory finally does come. And when the
[51:10] victory finally does come, we got to
[51:12] deliver for the people. Thank you so
[51:14] much, Professor. I love seeing you, and
[51:17] I hope you will come back again soon.
[51:18] I I will. Look forward to that.
[51:21] So that was Timothy Snyder, reminding us
[51:23] that we have to move from recognition to
[51:25] action. That we can see things are
[51:27] up, but the question is what are
[51:29] we going to do about it? Professor
[51:31] Snyder reminds us that every action we
[51:33] take, every group we join, every act of
[51:35] resistance we partake in, no matter how
[51:37] small, helps. That while the people in
[51:39] charge are doing everything possible to
[51:41] collapse American power, and could be
[51:44] wildly successful, they could also fail
[51:47] spectacularly. And it's up to us to
[51:49] convince people of that to make that
[51:52] real. No more thinking that this man is
[51:54] irresistible or inevitable or
[51:55] untouchable. He's not even smart and the
[51:58] choices he's making are hurting us. So
[52:00] we need to tie his corruption to our
[52:02] pain. We need to build a broad coalition
[52:05] against what he stands for and start
[52:07] imagining what this country could look
[52:08] like without his transactional way of
[52:10] thinking. I want to thank Tim for
[52:12] joining us today and you for caring
[52:14] enough about this country to be here.
[52:15] Now start imagining what it could be
[52:17] rather than brooding over what it was.
[52:20] Until next week.
[52:22] PG out.
[52:24] As we go into the summer months, please
[52:25] understand the American government is
[52:27] trying to silence any voices that don't
[52:29] repeat their propaganda. They want to
[52:31] confuse us and hope that this summer
[52:33] will have you partially checked out
[52:34] anyway. It doesn't help that mainstream
[52:37] media, cable news and social media are
[52:39] now almost exclusively run by Trump
[52:41] supporting billionaires at this point.
[52:43] So if you respect what I am trying to do
[52:45] here, if you learn something from my
[52:46] podcasts or my rants, if you would like
[52:48] to get this podcast ad-free delivered
[52:50] directly to your inbox along with my
[52:52] kitchen rants and TV appearances, then
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