# Gender Revolution: Live Aftershow with Katie Couric | National Geographic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnUvKMhooA4
Translation: es

[00:04] hi everyone thank you so much for being

[00:06] here and thanks to so many of you who

[00:08] just tuned in to watch gender revolution

[00:10] on National Geographic My Hope was

[00:12] always that this film could be a

[00:14] conversation starter for people all

[00:16] across the country and around the world

[00:18] for that matter and what better way to

[00:19] take that seriously than to follow it

[00:21] directly with a discussion that includes

[00:24] all of you so please send us your

[00:25] questions your comments please keep it

[00:28] clean people and your reactions to the

[00:30] film and we're going to get to as many

[00:31] as we can for the next half hour or so

[00:33] and I'm very excited that we have a

[00:35] great group of people who have gathered

[00:37] uh here tonight and many of them from

[00:39] the film Jan uh Jean malas should I say

[00:43] John or johnan very good one yes Jean

[00:47] Malpass uh who who you saw in the film

[00:49] he is a psychotherapist and the director

[00:51] of the gender and family project at The

[00:54] acrian Institute right here in New York

[00:55] City Michaela Mendelson who was also in

[00:58] the film is a business woman an activist

[01:01] who who owns Six eloo Loco restaurants

[01:04] in the LA area we told her story because

[01:06] she's also partnered with the state of

[01:08] California to develop the trans

[01:10] workplace project which helps businesses

[01:12] hire more trans people she's also the

[01:14] first transom to sit on the board of the

[01:16] Trevor Project Nicholas uh AR arameo

[01:21] Nico AKA Nico is a senior at Yale

[01:24] studying women's gender and sexuality

[01:26] studies and Dr Joshua safer is an

[01:28] endocrinologist and professor of

[01:30] medicine and molecular medicine at

[01:32] Boston University School of Medicine

[01:34] that's a lot of medicines there Josh he

[01:36] runs the center for transgender medicine

[01:38] and surgery at Boston Medical Center

[01:40] also joining us via Skype from their

[01:43] home uh in Washington DC JRM Vanessa

[01:46] Ford the parents of Ellie and Ronnie we

[01:48] told their stories in this documentary

[01:50] Georgian Davis who's an associate

[01:52] professor of Sociology at the University

[01:54] of Nevada not Nevada people Nevada and

[01:57] the current president of interact and

[02:00] Joshua BL is also here he's the senior

[02:03] staff attorney at the ACLU who's been

[02:05] working on Gavin Grim's Supreme Court

[02:07] case so welcome to all of you welcome to

[02:09] all of you joining us on Facebook live

[02:12] gosh we're getting a lot of questions

[02:14] sort of on a bunch of different areas

[02:17] because this really is a survey uh a uh

[02:20] really a primer if you will on gender

[02:22] 101 for people who may not be aware of

[02:25] some of the issues in that that this

[02:27] whole topic entails but before we get to

[02:30] the Facebook questions just go around

[02:32] quickly you all obviously have been

[02:34] immersed in this for some time

[02:36] professionally but immersed in working

[02:37] on this documentary and I I'm curious

[02:40] what the reaction has been from people

[02:43] some some probably are just seeing it

[02:45] tonight but for others who have seen it

[02:48] already at various screenings what are

[02:50] you hearing very good responses I think

[02:53] that people really appreciate the humble

[02:56] respectful curious stance that you took

[02:59] and that you took responsibility to

[03:01] educate yourself and meet um a large

[03:04] part of the community and talk about a

[03:05] lot of the issues at different age range

[03:08] um I just realized I really sounded like

[03:10] I was fishing for compliments with that

[03:11] question and I'm not you know Josh what

[03:13] about the medical community um you know

[03:16] Josh was also on my podcast today and we

[03:19] were talking about how the medical

[03:21] community is sort of uh mixed in terms

[03:24] of people's views on these issues are do

[03:27] you believe it's starting to become

[03:28] increasingly educated

[03:30] yes and I wouldn't say that the views

[03:31] are mixed so much as the knowledge is

[03:33] mixed so that when people appear to have

[03:36] um alternate views I really just think

[03:38] that's knowledge it's pretty fringe at

[03:40] this juncture among PE among informed

[03:42] medical people to uh to to be confused

[03:45] on some of these key points that we that

[03:47] are in that documentary and if I'm

[03:49] answering your question um I think in

[03:51] the crowds in which I travel the

[03:53] academic crowds uh people are pleased

[03:56] because it's making something accessible

[03:58] uh for the general community on this

[04:00] important topic Miguel I'm sure that um

[04:03] that some of your employees at the Aloo

[04:05] Loco I visited um were we looking

[04:09] forward to seeing sort of how this whole

[04:11] documentary came together because it's

[04:13] an interesting process and it was I was

[04:15] so pleased that Marie was able to come

[04:17] to the New York screening um the fact

[04:21] that that these employees were featured

[04:23] in this documentary I think one of the

[04:25] things that struck me is that how

[04:29] completely their lives change when they

[04:32] are in a workplace where they're valued

[04:35] where customers

[04:37] appreciate uh their their employment and

[04:41] that they're really excellent employees

[04:43] aren't they yeah well as I said in the

[04:45] film 25% have made the path to

[04:48] management and if you can imagine that

[04:51] um uh and as I also said that uh this is

[04:55] the first time working in their

[04:56] authentic gender but uh if you could

[04:59] imagine most of them having been sitting

[05:01] at home wondering if their lives were

[05:03] worthwhile because having so much

[05:04] trouble getting employment or being

[05:06] harassed in the job and wondering where

[05:08] to go next that they'd be treated

[05:09] properly and in this experience we get

[05:12] to watch their self-esteem just flower

[05:15] because the customers absolutely love it

[05:17] we get more compliments on them than

[05:19] anyone because the customers are feeling

[05:21] that genuine Joy from them of being

[05:23] affirmed in their true gender and it's

[05:25] just been fabulous to see them grow

[05:27] through that Nico at Yale uh were people

[05:30] aware that this documentary was in the

[05:32] works um is is sort of the gender

[05:36] non-conforming Community the the kids

[05:38] and students I talk to uh were they

[05:42] conversing about this and sort of how

[05:45] how much is this issue on the Forefront

[05:48] or is it just kind of accepted at Yale

[05:51] that everybody does fall into a spectrum

[05:54] as we just heard that yell student say

[05:57] yeah I mean I think that that's that's

[05:58] an interesting

[06:00] uh question for that it's at Yale I

[06:03] think there's definitely a mixed bag

[06:05] like there are defin definitely

[06:06] communities that are more actively

[06:09] engaging with these questions with the

[06:11] idea of gender with gender as like a

[06:12] spectrum and are definitely more willing

[06:15] to like tackle these questions and like

[06:17] have these conversations but you know at

[06:19] the same time as those communities exist

[06:21] there are also communities that don't

[06:23] necessarily think about these things or

[06:25] aren't actively questioning these things

[06:27] um and so I think more than anything at

[06:31] like at Yale in general I don't think

[06:33] there's necessarily a specific uh I

[06:36] guess like Vibe about it but there is I

[06:39] I would say that generally speaking

[06:41] there is like more of a willingness to

[06:43] converse about these topics but I think

[06:44] it's because these communities are kind

[06:46] of forcing this topic out more into the

[06:49] open just some someone on Facebook said

[06:51] is this a Yale

[06:52] thing uh is there something uh unique

[06:56] about Yale and of course uh this is

[06:58] going on on college campus all across

[07:00] the country yeah I mean what you feel

[07:02] that Yale is more Progressive than some

[07:04] college campuses I'm assuming yes okay

[07:06] so the thing about that is I think that

[07:08] Yale is not necessarily more Progressive

[07:10] I think that the students there are the

[07:13] ones who are making it a more

[07:15] Progressive place I don't think that

[07:16] there's anything necessarily about Yale

[07:18] as an institution that makes it more

[07:21] Progressive but it's the communities

[07:22] that exist there and a lot of these

[07:24] conversations around like gender

[07:26] non-conformity non-binary identities I

[07:28] think people have have this misguided

[07:30] idea that these are conversations that

[07:32] are only sprouting from this like Elite

[07:34] Ivory Tower knowledge when really a lot

[07:36] of these conversations like come from a

[07:39] lot of like more Niche communities that

[07:41] aren't paid attention to a lot

[07:43] especially like queer communities of

[07:44] color that exist in like more like um

[07:47] like diverse areas within like cities

[07:49] and things like that these conversations

[07:50] are happening it's just that they don't

[07:52] have the platform that like say an ivy

[07:54] league university has so they don't get

[07:56] the credit for already having these

[07:58] conversations you know yeah so I think

[08:00] that's what happen Vanessa and Jr and

[08:02] Georgian I'm going to get to you in a

[08:03] moment but I I also want to because I

[08:05] think you'll be answering some of these

[08:07] questions uh and I want to get to since

[08:09] we want this to be interactive and

[08:11] responsive to what people are asking uh

[08:14] I got a question uh from someone Laz Loz

[08:18] and it said watching gender revolution

[08:21] on naio UK my question is why is there

[08:24] such a growing number of trans kids

[08:26] today what's different I think that's

[08:29] one of the most um often asked questions

[08:32] for people certainly of my generation

[08:35] saying hey we didn't know a lot of trans

[08:38] kids when we were growing up why

[08:40] suddenly are we we seeing more and when

[08:43] it comes to the numbers um how would you

[08:46] answer that question John I don't know

[08:48] that I would say that there are more of

[08:50] them but I would say certainly that

[08:51] they're more visible and that maybe we

[08:54] have more of a language in families and

[08:57] households and communities uh in the

[09:00] medical community pediatricians have a

[09:01] language to start talking about this and

[09:04] so I think parents are starting to pay

[09:05] attention to what kids are saying and

[09:09] they educate themselves and they know

[09:11] they they kind of watch the signs for

[09:14] identity and authenticity a bit earlier

[09:16] you know we were talking about numbers

[09:18] earlier uh today you're probably so sick

[09:20] of me because you're on the podcast too

[09:22] Josh but you know I think a lot of

[09:25] people have again said to me it is so so

[09:27] so rare um uh we use the the statistic

[09:31] for interex people as one in 1500 to

[09:34] 2,000 birs georganne which is the

[09:36] commonly used statistic in terms of the

[09:39] number of intersex individuals who are

[09:41] born

[09:42] correct yes um that's commonly used I

[09:45] mean I would just say that you know very

[09:48] few people know about intersex but yet

[09:50] intersex um people are everywhere and

[09:53] I'm confident that every single person

[09:55] in the world has met someone who's

[09:56] intersect part of the reason why there's

[09:58] not more awareness is because of the

[10:00] shame and secrecy tied to being interex

[10:03] that is often related to the way in

[10:05] which medical doctors treated us

[10:06] historically and and so if you use that

[10:09] number one in 1500 to one in 2000 uh

[10:12] Josh I tell me what comment what what

[10:16] the medical community believes is sort

[10:18] of the the number of trans people in

[10:21] terms of is there a statistic so the

[10:23] statistic that's out there right now is

[10:25] about 1 in 200 there have been various

[10:27] surveys there was a surve survey a while

[10:30] ago suggesting 3% of the population 0.5

[10:33] there's a more current one 6 but they're

[10:35] all in that order of magnitude so about

[10:37] one in 200 roughly speaking pretty

[10:40] common I think people would be surprised

[10:42] Michaela to hear that but you were

[10:43] citing a recent study that was a very

[10:46] large study and uh one that was

[10:49] completed not too long ago well I think

[10:52] uh the latest one that that Josh may be

[10:55] Dr safer may be referring to is the NC

[10:58] National Center for Trans

[10:59] gender equality study uh that it was 6%

[11:03] Across the Nation but that was adults 18

[11:05] and over recent studies being worked on

[11:09] by The Williams Institute that worked

[11:11] with the NCT um are showing us and the

[11:14] California Institute of Health are

[11:16] showing us that the numbers of youth 12

[11:19] to 17 that identify as gender

[11:22] non-conforming is more in the range of

[11:24] 4.5% so that's a huge jump that's pretty

[11:28] amazing isn't it you think of that

[11:30] number um and I think people are just

[11:33] starting to realize the the number of

[11:36] people who fall into this category I

[11:38] think this is an important question for

[11:40] the Fords because it's one that I had

[11:42] when I first met them and and maybe Jean

[11:46] you can add to this but this is from

[11:48] Anna Miller I think these are this is a

[11:51] commonly held belief and I I know you

[11:53] all are so helpful and in in assisting

[11:57] people when it comes to understand

[11:59] understanding this and and Anna asks I'm

[12:01] not trying to be mean rude harsh or bash

[12:04] anyone however I just do not see how a

[12:08] four-year-old truly knows what this

[12:09] entails how do they comprehend that she

[12:12] goes on to say children do not have the

[12:14] mental capacity or emotional

[12:17] intelligence they haven't fully

[12:18] developed by that age brains are f are

[12:20] fully developed uh in the mid 20s or not

[12:24] fully developed until the mid 20s along

[12:27] with many other factors to have the

[12:29] understanding of gender dysphoria I do

[12:32] not think that children need to make

[12:33] this decision especially that young of a

[12:36] child um so Vanessa and Jr can you sort

[12:40] of help Anna understand why you believe

[12:43] that Ellie was able to make this

[12:47] decision right so we hear that all the

[12:50] time and people especially with young

[12:52] kids and our community of parents hear

[12:54] that all the time I think what that's

[12:56] getting at is there's a lot of brain

[12:58] development there's so many things that

[13:00] kids don't know at four or five but the

[13:02] research consistently is showing that

[13:05] gender identity who people feel they are

[13:07] on the inside is stable by four and

[13:11] completely stable by five and it's so

[13:14] different from sexuality that I think

[13:16] where people get confused is how could

[13:18] they know they're only that age and

[13:20] they're thinking about this along the

[13:21] lines of sexuality and that is not who

[13:25] our daughter says she is so it's the

[13:27] research side but then there's just the

[13:29] side of raising a child and many parents

[13:32] would probably tell you who have young

[13:34] ones like ours that they had a child who

[13:37] was one way when not allowed to

[13:40] live uh matching their gender identity

[13:43] and a completely different way when they

[13:44] were and parents want a happy child and

[13:49] a healthy child and it's really when you

[13:52] affirm your kid that's what you get a

[13:54] happy

[13:55] child yeah and I I think we also would

[13:58] say we can't get our child to eat

[14:01] vegetables so yeah what would what would

[14:04] someone say to we wouldn't be pushing

[14:06] her into that um this is who she is for

[14:09] a four-year-old to say I'm a girl at my

[14:12] heart and my brain she doesn't

[14:14] understand the implications and the

[14:15] societal issues right now she's proud of

[14:18] who she is that drawing that says I love

[14:20] being who I am those are her words at

[14:22] four when she drew that family portrait

[14:24] and so that's our job as a community to

[14:27] educate others like this documentary

[14:29] so that she can just live as who she is

[14:32] Sean I think you must hear this all the

[14:34] time as well and I know you use in uh

[14:37] consistent insistent persistent um as as

[14:42] a a good gauge in terms

[14:44] of recognizing a trans child but what

[14:48] other things um and and maybe do you

[14:51] look for when families come in to talk

[14:54] to you and say we think our child may be

[14:58] transgender well as Vanessa said I think

[15:00] first of all gender identity develops

[15:02] really young and the research shows that

[15:06] the age of onset when child starts

[15:08] children start uh expressing their

[15:10] gender dysphoria or gender variance is

[15:12] really around the age of 4 to seven so

[15:16] we also know that it's actually very

[15:18] common um and we do actually really look

[15:20] for persistence consistence and

[15:22] insistence so we really try to see what

[15:25] the kid has been saying we do a thorough

[15:27] assessment uh of how they've been

[15:29] identifying what they've been saying

[15:30] about themselves their uh gender roles

[15:33] to some extent is really important we

[15:35] try to assess whether there is gender

[15:36] dysphoria body

[15:38] dysphoria uh in a specific way uh but

[15:41] you know one thing that is really

[15:43] interesting is that when a cisgender uh

[15:46] little boy or little girl who's four

[15:49] says I'm a boy or I'm a girl we don't

[15:51] stop them and say hold on we don't know

[15:54] that it's true we're g to have to wait

[15:55] until the age of 15 or 18 to know this

[15:58] so we also have to ask ourselves why

[16:01] we're having such a hard time wrapping

[16:03] our minds around gender diversity um as

[16:07] such somebody actually uh asks I have an

[16:10] eight-year-old son that falls in this

[16:13] spectrum how do you know when the time

[16:14] is right to allow them to transition I

[16:17] think we should point out and I think

[16:19] it's something you and I talked about

[16:20] Josh is socially transitioning I think

[16:23] sometimes people automatically assume

[16:25] that means there is medical intervention

[16:27] in terms of drug drugs hormones even

[16:30] surgery I think because people aren't

[16:32] necessarily familiar with and that's one

[16:34] of the reasons I tried to explain this

[16:36] in a way chronologically with a young

[16:39] child and then with puberty blockers and

[16:41] then with cross hormones but uh the

[16:44] social transition is is something that

[16:47] is not it's absolutely not MediCal

[16:49] there's nothing medical that is done

[16:51] before the beginning of puberty before

[16:53] the blockers so and everything is

[16:55] reversible and it really follows the

[16:58] child's lead and again follows their

[17:00] lead for a certain time so we we don't

[17:02] jump to conclusions we really make sure

[17:05] that it is the right thing and uh some

[17:07] children very most of the time do not

[17:09] change their mind do not transition back

[17:13] uh socially but uh sometimes it is

[17:16] helpful to just follow the child's lead

[17:18] and and just go with what they're saying

[17:20] even if they change their mind they

[17:21] might need to sort of experiment and

[17:24] allow them to live outside of the pink

[17:25] and the blue box and I would jump in on

[17:28] on this um just making one more point

[17:30] which is that there is a fear that maybe

[17:33] you'll lead them along and that you'll

[17:36] permit them to go someplace that uh that

[17:38] you wouldn't have wanted them to go but

[17:40] if this is biology then that can't be

[17:43] true if we were actually able to

[17:45] manipulate by by uh manipulate gender

[17:47] identity with such a trivial maneuver as

[17:50] simply allowing a child to express him

[17:52] or herself then we would then all the

[17:55] story with the intersex individuals

[17:56] would never have occurred because all

[17:58] those um all that the uh all of our

[18:00] interventions there would have actually

[18:02] succeeded Vanessa you wanted to add

[18:04] something I want yeah um I saw that

[18:08] tweet and reached out to the mom and

[18:10] we're connected now and this is the

[18:12] power of this documentary and reaching

[18:14] out because she lives in a place where

[18:17] there's no resources and she sees she

[18:19] needs to understand her child and uh I

[18:22] don't know for child's gender

[18:24] non-conforming or transgender but we're

[18:26] now connected and we're getting her

[18:27] connected with resources online which is

[18:30] a really helpful tool for people who are

[18:32] isolated so I thought like to hear that

[18:34] that question that you just asked

[18:36] actually got to the mom and she's now

[18:37] connected with support because there are

[18:39] a lot of support groups I know that Jr

[18:41] and Vanessa I was asked uh on Twitter or

[18:45] Facebook I know I can't find it right

[18:47] this second but a lot of people asked

[18:49] about sort of what

[18:51] support uh groups and sort of support in

[18:55] general exists out there and there's a

[18:57] lot of it now particularly in the online

[18:59] community

[19:00] correct yes um there are private groups

[19:03] that are private for very good reasons

[19:06] for security for privacy of the families

[19:09] and also the uh the uh the trans kids

[19:14] who are also have their own support but

[19:18] yeah you can search if you just search

[19:21] um most of the groups whether they're

[19:23] closed or secret have a front door that

[19:26] allows you to see it get in touch with

[19:28] it administrator and then they'll vet

[19:30] you before you get in but the groups are

[19:31] very robust and fall in all kinds of

[19:34] different categories so just use that

[19:36] search bar and you'll get connected to

[19:38] there's thousands of us parents raising

[19:41] beautiful trans and gender

[19:42] non-conforming kids you'll get

[19:44] connected Chris Murphy asks uh where are

[19:48] specific examples in 2017 of

[19:51] discrimination by gender e in either

[19:53] government or the workplace um let me go

[19:57] if I could to to Joshua first to to talk

[20:00] about that because I think there's been

[20:02] a lot of activity in this Arena I think

[20:04] there's a lot of fear that uh that some

[20:07] of those things will be rolled back but

[20:10] can you sort of give us if you will

[20:12] Joshua the state of play in terms of

[20:14] discrimination in government or the

[20:16] workplace right

[20:17] now absolutely so I think as a matter of

[20:21] what the law should protect against we

[20:24] have a statute that protects against sex

[20:26] discrimination that covers all 50 states

[20:28] and should protect trans people in all

[20:31] 50 states

[20:32] too but that doesn't always bear out in

[20:35] reality you know we get uh intakes all

[20:38] the time about people who interview for

[20:40] a job before transitioning get a job

[20:43] offer show up to work after

[20:45] transitioning and the job offer is

[20:47] revoked we get intakes about people who

[20:50] are you know harassed on the job uh

[20:53] forced to use restrooms in an entirely

[20:56] separate building sort of uh REM I was

[20:59] very much reminded of some of the

[21:01] intakes when I watched hidden figures

[21:03] right I know people have said that it's

[21:06] incredible it's it's incredible and it I

[21:08] think people don't come close to

[21:10] understanding the daily impact it has on

[21:12] someone's life um if they're not living

[21:14] it themselves and until this past year

[21:18] uh the military prohibited trans people

[21:20] from enlisting uh and you know I had a

[21:23] client who was a trans man deployed in

[21:27] Afghanistan deployed in Iraq as at post

[21:30] transition you know was in a foxhole

[21:33] with uh his uh the rest of his

[21:36] troop but on routine physical screening

[21:39] his uh testosterone uh popped up and

[21:43] someone up the chain in command saw it

[21:45] and they started separation proceedings

[21:47] to kick them out um so this is very much

[21:50] still going on and we're just at the

[21:53] beginning of of being able to enjoy the

[21:55] formal protections that we should have

[21:57] which is why it's pretty scary to in a

[21:59] position where we might see all this

[22:01] begin to roll back how concerned are you

[22:03] about

[22:05] that um well I think for the past eight

[22:08] years we've had an Administration that

[22:12] has been vigorously enforcing these

[22:14] these laws we we actually the ACLU had

[22:16] to sue the Bush Administration in um the

[22:20] 2006 to because they fired a um an

[22:24] amazing uh person named Diane Shore from

[22:27] her job at the Library of Congress

[22:28] Congress we won a great decision in 2008

[22:31] and then for the entire Obama

[22:33] administration uh that decision's been

[22:35] implemented and sort of across the board

[22:38] by all the agencies now it that was

[22:42] powerful because it was right it's what

[22:44] the law required regardless of what

[22:45] those agencies said but of course it's

[22:48] always helpful to have the agencies say

[22:49] it with you and now we're just sort of

[22:51] back to where we were eight years ago of

[22:54] um saying it ourselves and having the

[22:56] courts hopefully agree with us but we

[22:58] won't have the the important support

[23:01] we've had for the past eight years and

[23:03] you know uh Gavin's uh case is has a

[23:07] date has been set March

[23:09] 28th of this year to go before The

[23:11] Supreme Court a lot of people I think

[23:13] have been very taken with how um

[23:16] self-possessed Gavin is and uh how

[23:19] eloquent and I I I Marvel at his ability

[23:22] at 15 to stand in front of the all those

[23:25] adults at that Schoolboard meeting and

[23:28] make his case uh just brilliantly as

[23:31] only a

[23:32] 15-year-old and and um uh someone asked

[23:36] are there what what can be done to

[23:39] support him uh and it says uh Janice

[23:42] Priestess says how can we help Gavin

[23:43] Grim's case at the Supreme

[23:45] Court oh well you know Gavin has a

[23:48] Facebook page and you there's like

[23:50] Twitter hashtags but the most important

[23:52] thing people can be doing is to raise

[23:55] visibility and to tell their stories I

[23:57] think we won marriage equality a couple

[24:00] years ago the first lawsuit was brought

[24:02] in

[24:03] 1972 and it took 40 years for people to

[24:06] see gay people as their families their

[24:08] friends their neighbors their

[24:10] co-workers and to see that they had all

[24:12] the same dreams and the same Humanity as

[24:14] straight people and we need to go

[24:17] through that same educational process in

[24:19] in the next two to five months so I I

[24:22] think it's really important um to uh you

[24:26] know the visibility of this of this

[24:29] documentary and of all these parents and

[24:31] families that are you know so brave in

[24:33] telling their stories here that's just

[24:37] as crucial as any legal case can can be

[24:40] because you know no matter what the law

[24:42] says if the if the judges don't see

[24:44] trans people you know as people if they

[24:47] don't see trans boys as boys and trans

[24:49] girls as girls they're not going to get

[24:51] it and so there's a there's a you need

[24:55] people to see the uh discrimination

[24:56] that's in front of their eyes sometimes

[24:59] and it takes a lot of humanizing to do

[25:00] that you know Michaela I I know that

[25:03] you've been on the Forefront as we've

[25:05] said dealing uh with helping trans

[25:08] employees in California are other states

[25:11] kind of following California's lead well

[25:14] California uh has had some pretty good

[25:17] laws uh in place for over 20 years but

[25:20] they the Department of Fair Employment

[25:22] housing there that that really is where

[25:25] these laws and protections come from is

[25:27] about to Institute a whole new new set

[25:28] of guidelines that's really Broad and

[25:32] from beginning to end of protection in

[25:33] the workplace that I feel that uh we're

[25:36] hoping to get adopted by as many states

[25:40] as possible so we're supporting them and

[25:43] getting the word out to all the

[25:44] industries throughout California through

[25:46] training videos and webinars um and then

[25:49] we're looking to other states to take on

[25:51] that battle as well and see how we can

[25:53] support them Nico um you know I've

[25:55] gotten a a number of questions about

[25:58] about non-binary gender um Christine

[26:01] Hall said I was hoping to hear a

[26:03] discussion of non non-binary gender can

[26:05] we talk about that here we did talk

[26:08] about it some in the documentary but I

[26:10] think you know what was very interesting

[26:12] to me is the conversation between har

[26:14] and Renee Richards where you saw a real

[26:17] generational divide of people uh even

[26:21] somebody who is on the you know Pioneer

[26:24] like Renee really seeing gender in terms

[26:27] of male female along strict binary lines

[26:30] if you will and I think some people

[26:33] still have a difficult time

[26:35] understanding this whole n notion of

[26:36] being gender non-conforming or having a

[26:39] pronoun of they and it leaves them

[26:41] scratching their heads so can you help

[26:44] illuminate us a little bit more about

[26:47] where where this Falls in terms of

[26:50] understanding the whole issue yeah yeah

[26:52] I mean I think that a lot of um a lot of

[26:56] this move towards I guess what har

[26:57] called a more gender chill future I

[26:59] think is very interesting just because I

[27:02] think at least for the people that I

[27:04] talk to I think there's more of an

[27:05] interest around like lowering the stakes

[27:08] of what gender means that like you know

[27:11] when you have cases with like you know

[27:12] parents being extremely worried about

[27:14] like their kids having these thoughts at

[27:16] very young ages it has a lot to do with

[27:18] the fact that it's like gender is seen

[27:20] as this like like all defining thing

[27:23] about somebody that like you are this

[27:25] therefore you are all like 1 million of

[27:27] these other things that are

[27:28] characterized by this particular gender

[27:30] identity right I think it's a way we we

[27:33] many of us have learned to organize the

[27:35] world yeah exactly exactly and so I

[27:37] think that now like this move away from

[27:39] that and this move towards like thinking

[27:42] about gender along a spectrum and what

[27:44] it means to be non-binary like even now

[27:46] I think there's this desire to classify

[27:48] non-binary as like another gender

[27:51] category but like the term non-binary

[27:53] itself means like no we're trying to

[27:55] like Define our ourselves like outside

[27:56] of that um at least like in my

[27:59] experience of it it's been a lot of like

[28:00] people asking me like whether like being

[28:03] non-binary for me means that like I'm

[28:05] kind of just using this as like as like

[28:07] a means to an end a was station exactly

[28:10] um and like what I've tried to explain

[28:11] to people is that like I don't see it as

[28:13] a means to an end I see it as an end in

[28:15] and of itself like it can be that

[28:17] there's no need to move beyond that

[28:19] because if I'm trying to envision myself

[28:21] being a part of like a future that is I

[28:23] guess like more gender chill then like

[28:25] what is the need for me to Define like

[28:28] every or to like attribute every aspect

[28:30] of like my like physical appearance or

[28:32] my body or like my mannerisms or

[28:34] anything like that to a specific gender

[28:36] category when the way that I see it like

[28:38] as we continue moving along in time um

[28:42] hopefully you know we lose those

[28:44] restrictions around like you know

[28:46] whether like boys get to do this or

[28:48] girls get to do that and you know if we

[28:50] lose those restrictions then the gender

[28:52] categories kind of become obsolete you

[28:54] know georganne I'm curious you know

[28:56] since I know you you you're you're an

[28:58] associate professor of Sociology as I

[29:00] mentioned you're around a lot of college

[29:03] kids um you you know I do feel this is

[29:07] something that

[29:08] probably you know definitely people my

[29:11] age really grapple with can you talk

[29:14] about sort of how you've been able to

[29:16] process it through your your experiences

[29:19] with some of your

[29:21] students sure well I'm an assistant

[29:23] professor but I'll take tenure from you

[29:25] Katie that's fine you know what you know

[29:27] consider it done georan you're now

[29:29] associate professor there we go I will

[29:31] look forward to the raise on my next

[29:33] paycheck um but I think the students

[29:36] really are pushing me as they are so

[29:38] many others and I really think um it's

[29:40] young people that are pushing Society

[29:42] forward in terms of understanding the

[29:44] complexities of gender I think it's

[29:47] really important to to know that um in

[29:49] the case of interex I I'm always

[29:51] wondering how it is that interex people

[29:53] are subjected to these medically

[29:55] unnecessary irreversible surgeries often

[29:58] when they're young firstborn or teenager

[30:00] lie to about the diagnosis but then you

[30:04] know without any like recourse really it

[30:06] just it just happens as opposed to say

[30:09] in the trans uh Community or the trans

[30:11] World doctors are reluctant to perform

[30:13] these procedures reluctant to engage in

[30:15] any sort of modification of bodies or

[30:18] any sort of um medicalization services

[30:21] so it's I think it really comes down to

[30:23] that interex folks and trans folks and

[30:26] everyone else all of us regardless of

[30:28] our genitalia should be the only one to

[30:31] make autonomous decisions about our

[30:32] bodies well well Georgian I got a lot of

[30:35] questions about that um you know people

[30:38] saying can you say more about human

[30:40] rights violations against inex children

[30:42] what's being done to protect those

[30:44] rights give us a sense of if if it's

[30:47] changing in terms of the protocol

[30:49] because as you and I have discussed uh

[30:52] uh the wh has spoken out against this I

[30:55] don't know if that was included in the

[30:56] documentary there so

[30:58] but but it was a really important point

[31:00] the United Nations um and yet this is

[31:03] standard operating procedure so to speak

[31:06] among a lot of a lot of doctors these

[31:09] days do you see a shift in that because

[31:12] you all have been you all have been

[31:13] talking about this for really decades

[31:15] now this isn't a new

[31:18] phenomenon yeah for decades now interex

[31:20] activists has been have been saying stop

[31:23] performing medically unnecessary and

[31:24] irreversible surgeries on our bodies and

[31:28] doctors continue to do so and they

[31:30] violate their own medical protocols that

[31:32] they issue and you know I'm not out here

[31:34] as some medical Professor some interex

[31:36] activists saying these things as you

[31:38] said Katie and as I mentioned to you is

[31:40] that I'm not alone the World Health

[31:42] Organization is saying the same thing

[31:44] the United Nations is saying the same

[31:46] thing do not perform these surgeries um

[31:49] listen if someone wants a surgery or

[31:51] wants any sort of medical medically

[31:53] unnecessary

[31:55] interventions I'm cool with it as long

[31:57] as there have a say in What's Done to

[31:59] their body in my case and in so many

[32:02] other young kids that I've met and other

[32:04] adults like me they've removed parts of

[32:06] our genitalia they've taken out testes

[32:09] they done all sorts of things that are

[32:11] horrific and eliminate any possibility

[32:14] for me for example to have biological

[32:16] children and these are human rights

[32:18] violations this is sterilization this is

[32:20] genital mutilation do you see Josh the

[32:23] medical community taking notice um it

[32:26] was I I think that

[32:28] uh Dr dve uh who spoke to me for this

[32:32] documentary which I really appreciated

[32:34] said it had prompted him to sort of

[32:37] evaluate uh the way he and other doctors

[32:40] have been trained in these circumstances

[32:42] I I I think he represents a very

[32:46] mainstream uh view actually and that is

[32:49] that um they're still very much in

[32:51] transition and still and still very

[32:54] conservative in terms of the mindset

[32:57] because that's how they were taught and

[32:59] so there's a little resistance to change

[33:00] just a little bit how you you coming

[33:02] into the whole documentary needing to

[33:04] learn medical professionals at that

[33:05] level who trained at a certain way have

[33:08] that perspective and the good news is

[33:12] that if you're being taught now you'll

[33:15] be the the the the training in the

[33:17] educational system has changed it

[33:19] certainly needs to change I'm in

[33:21] complete alignment with with georan

[33:23] that's what we're teaching at Boston

[33:24] University now I was going to say our

[33:25] medical schools sort of uh changing

[33:28] their approach in general or well I can

[33:31] I can speak for one medical school and

[33:33] where yes I this is exactly what I teach

[33:36] and I'm the one who does that partic who

[33:39] teaches that particular piece so that's

[33:41] absolutely been true for us for a number

[33:43] of years other schools are beginning to

[33:46] adapt similar things but that it's still

[33:48] not widespread um and we've got a lot of

[33:50] work to do I I would I would put it as

[33:53] it's like I I think I said before

[33:54] there's still a lot of ignorance out

[33:56] there and there's a L of inertia out

[33:59] there Katie I've had and maybe Dr if I

[34:01] can just say something real quick if

[34:03] maybe Dr safer can just add to this but

[34:05] it's my understanding that in medical

[34:07] school um these medical students aren't

[34:10] getting that much information about

[34:11] intersects or trans or the way in which

[34:13] intersex and trans people live their

[34:14] lives and experience medicalization and

[34:17] in fact I would think and correct me if

[34:18] I'm wrong that folks who've watched this

[34:20] documentary actually have more knowledge

[34:23] about interex and trans both than

[34:25] medical students these days would you

[34:26] say that's correct I I totally agree

[34:28] with George and I I mean I won't say I

[34:30] don't want to get too extreme in that

[34:32] statement because they learn some of

[34:34] these things in anatomy and such uh so

[34:37] it's it's not that they really get

[34:39] nothing but in terms of that whole

[34:41] concept of first don't do anything

[34:44] because you're not even you you need to

[34:46] let these kids grow and evolve and

[34:48] explore and see what uh what what it is

[34:50] they want to do if anything and you

[34:52] don't need to cut them up and force them

[34:54] to to to conform to some to some Norm um

[34:57] that very specific message uh that's

[35:00] still exceedingly rare I agree with you

[35:02] absolutely but you know georganne you

[35:04] and I have talked about this about how

[35:07] uh parents are trying to do the right

[35:10] thing for their kids and I think it's

[35:12] this fear of having a child who's

[35:14] different who doesn't fit in into these

[35:18] categories and but you you you get upset

[35:21] I know when doctors say oh the parents

[35:23] want it because you feel the parents

[35:25] don't parents the parents but parents in

[35:28] general don't necessarily uh know that

[35:31] there are other options on the other

[35:33] hand you know it must be a very scary

[35:35] and um you know unsettling situation for

[35:39] a parent as we saw in the documentary

[35:42] can I George often what happens I was

[35:44] gonna say Geor let me answer this as the

[35:46] doctor in there because I'm the one who

[35:47] wants to push back on the doctors and

[35:50] and and the answer is that people want

[35:53] to choose things that might seem easier

[35:57] that are and and we advise them all the

[35:59] time we advise them how how what foods

[36:02] they should eat and then we're wrong and

[36:03] we advise them to eat different foods so

[36:06] we're we're very comfortable as

[36:07] Physicians advising people when we're

[36:10] confident that it's the right thing and

[36:12] there was an ERA when we were confident

[36:14] that fitting in was the right thing and

[36:17] the and that's wrong and now we need to

[36:20] gain confidence to advise parents not to

[36:23] rush into things to say that that is

[36:25] it's actually the correct decision and

[36:28] and help them and they might

[36:29] instinctively want to still make their

[36:31] kid fit into some cookie cutter shape

[36:34] but it's a little that it becomes on the

[36:36] medical establishment say well no that's

[36:38] not standard well we have to make it not

[36:40] standard so that we can say that of

[36:41] course and I hear what you're saying and

[36:43] I hear what you're saying doctor but I

[36:44] just want to quickly say that you know I

[36:46] traveled around the country and I

[36:47] interviewed many doctors who treat in

[36:49] quotes interex people and what they

[36:52] often do is they frame intersex as a

[36:54] medical emergency and if you frame

[36:56] something as a medical emergency you're

[36:57] establishing the need for a Medical

[36:59] Response and like most of us we don't

[37:02] know about interex we've never heard of

[37:04] it before um and what then end up

[37:06] happening then is that parents

[37:09] understandably are lost and confused and

[37:11] then they sort of move forward with it

[37:12] so as you're saying Dr and I absolutely

[37:14] agree that providers need to slow down

[37:16] that process interex people or babies

[37:19] born with interex traits they're okay in

[37:23] the majority of cases there's no medical

[37:25] NE emergency so it shouldn't be

[37:27] presented that way yeah and I also just

[37:29] want Absol build on that in terms of

[37:31] parents of trans kids I think most

[37:33] parents love their kids and want to

[37:35] protect their kids and sometimes feel

[37:37] like the best way to protect them is to

[37:39] sort of keep them in the box but what

[37:41] the research shows is that uh actually

[37:44] coming from an accepting and supportive

[37:46] family will reduce the risk of suicide

[37:49] or self harm by 8 to 10 times so often

[37:53] parents come to us feeling really

[37:55] helpless and they say I'm not equipped

[37:58] to uh raise a transgender child I don't

[38:00] know the community I don't know what's

[38:02] best to do and what we say is your love

[38:04] your acceptance you're telling them that

[38:07] you will love them no matter what will

[38:08] actually make them the strongest and I

[38:10] think it's worth reiterating that that

[38:12] uh the suicide rate for Trans

[38:14] individuals and I don't know if this

[38:16] extends to gender nonconforming I don't

[38:18] know if the the statistics are but so

[38:20] and someone asked by the way what's the

[38:22] difference between trans and gender

[38:23] nonconforming which we'll talk in a

[38:24] second but um that 40

[38:28] 1% my understanding attempted or 1.6% in

[38:32] the general population US it goes up to

[38:34] 41% in the trans Community I I read that

[38:37] it was 4.6% in the general population

[38:40] and 41% for Trans I had 1.6 and 41 but

[38:45] in any case the just the Gap is enormous

[38:48] and it goes even higher if you look at

[38:51] uh trans communities of color so in the

[38:53] African-American Community it is up to

[38:55] 48% so we just need to really look at

[38:58] that so again acceptance is protection

[39:01] and education leads to to acceptance as

[39:03] well do you want to take a shot Nico at

[39:05] the the someone who asked what's the

[39:07] difference between uh being transgender

[39:10] and being gender non-conforming yeah so

[39:13] okay so this is um also why for me it's

[39:16] like very hard to follow statistics

[39:18] about like you know there are like X

[39:20] number of trans people in like the us

[39:22] because a lot of those statistics like I

[39:24] don't really know what like the

[39:26] qualifications are for like people who

[39:28] are answering these statistics right so

[39:31] um the way that I try and think about it

[39:33] is like basically like if you claim a

[39:35] trans identity nobody's allowed to tell

[39:37] you otherwise or tell you that you need

[39:38] to qualify with some sort of biological

[39:40] or psychological or whatever kind of

[39:43] explanation um but this term of gender

[39:46] non-conforming it can mean so many

[39:48] different things because it can very

[39:50] much like just at its like by definition

[39:53] of the terms can just mean somebody who

[39:55] does not conform to the like expected

[39:58] gender Norms so like for example I have

[40:01] friends like at school who you know are

[40:04] you know identify as like women and

[40:06] identify as like lesbians but like May

[40:08] dress in like a more masculine fashion

[40:10] and like they see that as being gender

[40:12] non-conforming because dressing as like

[40:16] being a woman and not dressing and in a

[40:18] feminine fashion is technically gender

[40:20] non-conforming if the society that you

[40:22] live in like expects a certain kind of

[40:25] performance out of a particular gender

[40:27] right but it can also mean a lot more

[40:30] than just that to somebody who

[40:31] identifies with that label so saw the

[40:34] documentary right you know in in Samoa

[40:36] with the Fafa you know a lot of it is

[40:39] sort of how the

[40:41] culture everything's within context

[40:43] everything's within context there's

[40:44] nothing that we can say here in the US

[40:48] that we can automatically just export

[40:50] somewhere else and apply somewhere else

[40:52] um you know we can't take our like queer

[40:55] identities or like our definition of

[40:57] trans like pretty much anywhere else

[40:59] because it's very much dependent on how

[41:01] we've constructed our own ideas around

[41:03] gender here I let I want to get to some

[41:06] sort of uh real world questions from uh

[41:11] some people who watch the documentary

[41:14] someone wrote Our 18 actually just a few

[41:18] minutes ago our 18-year-old daughter

[41:20] told us a year ago she was a transgender

[41:22] male we saw no signs of that she wants

[41:24] to start testosterone as soon as

[41:26] possible she's of legal age so we can't

[41:29] stop her and aren't sure that we should

[41:31] what is the protocol before doctors

[41:32] start administering hormones is there a

[41:35] screening process um maybe uh that one

[41:39] comes to me I think and the answer is

[41:40] for uh an adult uh there is uh well

[41:46] there used there used to be a bit of a

[41:48] screening process where somebody would

[41:51] be directed to a mental health provider

[41:53] however uh adults are often um are very

[41:58] well able to articulate their gender

[42:01] identity uh in fact I would say that's

[42:03] the norm in my experience and so uh

[42:07] depending upon where what medical

[42:09] professionals the their trans uh gender

[42:12] man has access uh their the protocol May

[42:15] Simply Be confirming somebody uh some

[42:19] the medical professional confirming

[42:21] insistent persistent consistent just as

[42:23] Jean is said with regard to the kids

[42:25] that this that they that they're

[42:27] confident that this is their identity

[42:29] that there isn't a confounding um reason

[42:32] why they would think this that's that's

[42:34] unrelated and that's about it but I was

[42:37] going to say 18 I mean they they can

[42:40] this person can do they yes so I think

[42:42] that the model is is in formed consent

[42:44] so over 18 someone who can is able to

[42:47] process this question and this decision

[42:49] can make the decision they want I think

[42:51] there's a history the mental health

[42:52] field has really gotten in the way of

[42:54] the trans Community a lot and we're

[42:55] trying to repair this we had a what we

[42:58] call a gatekeeping position which has

[43:00] been really unfair so now we try to

[43:02] really empower the community and not be

[43:05] gatekeeping so an 18-year-old can go to

[43:08] a medical clinic and I also think it's

[43:11] really important to understand there's

[43:12] not one way there's not one trans

[43:14] narrative there's not one way of being

[43:15] cisgender there's not one way of being

[43:17] transgender there are individuals who

[43:19] know since the age of three and who can

[43:22] tell you at four uh in a very persistent

[43:25] and consistent way and there are

[43:27] individuals who uh come to terms with

[43:29] their own gender identity later on and

[43:31] that doesn't make them less legitimate

[43:33] than someone who was aware at five or

[43:35] six but I feel for this father because

[43:37] yes 18 you know if my 18-year-old I

[43:41] would want to make sure because you know

[43:43] when you start talking about cross

[43:44] hormones I mean there isn't a lot of in

[43:47] my understanding Josh a ton of medical

[43:50] literature about uh the longterm effects

[43:54] the longterm effects and that's one of

[43:55] is that incorrect one of the reasons I

[43:57] know Christina Olsen is doing this study

[44:00] as well but please yeah so so I guess

[44:03] let me say a few things so um so first

[44:05] of all uh if uh some so maybe not so

[44:09] reassuring to the parent um most of the

[44:12] kids that age college kids who come to

[44:14] me and say they're trans uh they're

[44:16] trans and it's pretty straightforward

[44:19] and there's not much to discuss and a

[44:21] trans guy shows up and says I'm ready

[44:23] for testosterone doc we're looking to

[44:26] make sure it's safe and we're moving

[44:27] forward a minority are a little bit

[44:30] fuzzier and I might say and they might

[44:33] come to be more with questions and they

[44:35] might say okay I'll get back to you Doc

[44:36] in six months or whatever and so um and

[44:39] so there might be that circumstance but

[44:41] I want to be clear most of them are

[44:43] pretty straightforward and there's not

[44:44] much else going on and what about the

[44:46] the medical effects or the long-term

[44:48] effects of cross hormon um so

[44:50] testosterone let's speak specific to the

[44:52] to this testosterone's pretty safe as a

[44:55] medication uh the uh there there are a

[44:59] couple of concerns there are things that

[45:00] we follow for any guys on testosterone

[45:03] whether it be transgend young

[45:05] transgender boys or young transgender

[45:07] men excuse me um or um men who have low

[45:10] testosterone for whatever reason so

[45:11] there are some things we have to watch

[45:13] but as medications go uh this is

[45:16] actually a pretty safe intervention the

[45:18] concern is that there will be permanent

[45:20] effects so uh there will be uh changes

[45:24] in facial hair that will not be that

[45:26] easy to reverse

[45:27] uh but uh it's uh you know things like

[45:31] you know appearance uh but but what

[45:33] about any other any other side effects

[45:36] in terms of physiological that aren't as

[45:39] cosmetic lot lots of anxiety but um men

[45:43] seem to O be at higher risk for heart

[45:45] disease because their their blood counts

[45:47] go up and so that's so that's true and

[45:51] that's something we monitor but we don't

[45:54] you know Force um other men to avoid

[45:57] void having testosterone for you know

[45:58] trying to protect them from heart

[46:00] disease as they age so you know it's

[46:02] that kind of thing it's pretty safe

[46:04] actually and I can I bring something

[46:05] else in that conversation Dr safer and

[46:08] that is that really the only this hasn't

[46:11] been said yet but I know it's

[46:13] implied really the only cure for what

[46:17] might be called gender dysphoria someone

[46:19] who is feels that they're not in the

[46:21] body that they should be is transition

[46:25] and nothing else has been proven

[46:27] to and and and to help and you know one

[46:32] of the the greatest evils that I've seen

[46:36] is what they call conversion or

[46:37] reparative therapy and that's kind of

[46:40] the opposite I think

[46:43] of EX accept accepting someone and

[46:46] helping them through the process

[46:48] thinking that we can change biologically

[46:51] who they are and and at the Trevor

[46:54] Project I've seen so many kids

[46:57] and most of the suicide attempts do

[46:59] happen as

[47:00] adolescence um because you they're going

[47:02] through a period where their body is

[47:04] changing in a way that they're so

[47:05] dramatically opposed to and they're

[47:07] confused about it but I've seen so many

[47:09] kids also that have attempted suicide

[47:12] because of repairative therapy I I I

[47:14] think that's a huge point that Michaela

[47:16] is making which is um to be careful the

[47:18] caution maybe to the parent here too is

[47:21] to is is to recognize that that the the

[47:24] the idea that you're going to um change

[47:26] to gender identity back is is is a

[47:28] complete disaster uh where actually uh

[47:32] going with the flow is the only thing

[47:34] statistically that has any success in

[47:37] fact Chris Lopez to the panel members

[47:39] who identify on the

[47:40] Spectrum uh what do you wish your

[47:43] parents had known or done along your

[47:44] gender journey and this is asked by a as

[47:47] a parent of a 9-year-old female to male

[47:50] son which I think is a really good

[47:52] question uh what would you I mean either

[47:57] you what would you say

[47:59] Nico go ahead okay um so I think for

[48:04] me I don't know it's it's it's hard just

[48:07] because I feel like I would want more

[48:11] than anything for like parents to know

[48:14] that like to begin like a process of

[48:17] transition or to want a process of

[48:19] transition like for the most part it's

[48:22] something that like if you reach a point

[48:25] where you're like this is something that

[48:26] I need need to do that it's not just a

[48:28] decision that you're just like you wake

[48:29] up one day and you're like man it sure

[48:31] would be nice if I transitioned today

[48:32] like that would that sounds like fun

[48:35] because there's pretty much nothing

[48:36] about the process that is enjoyable um

[48:39] there is like you know issues with

[48:41] medical gatekeeping which definitely

[48:43] still do exist even at like the most

[48:44] Progressive of places do still exist um

[48:47] I can just say like from my own personal

[48:49] experience it took me a very long time

[48:51] to get access to what I needed because I

[48:53] had to follow specific guidelines that

[48:55] weren't actually supposed to to be

[48:57] enforced at the Medical Institution that

[48:59] I was working through but were enforced

[49:01] anyway um and that a lot of a lot of

[49:05] times like I think um like I wish that

[49:10] parents had I guess more access to more

[49:13] information on like the I guess like the

[49:17] specific like I guess the what is it the

[49:20] like the technical aspects of like

[49:22] transitioning if you choose to do so

[49:23] medically I think there's this idea that

[49:26] like as soon as you start start hormones

[49:27] like you're going to wake up the next

[49:28] day and everything's going to change or

[49:30] like you know like when I yeah like when

[49:31] I started um like testosterone it was

[49:34] like this idea that I'm going to wake up

[49:35] tomorrow and my voice is going to be

[49:37] like five octaves deeper but it's not

[49:39] like that it's like a very very gradual

[49:41] process that um you know it kind of like

[49:44] as you go along changing at least in my

[49:46] experience like my family and like my

[49:49] friends were able to transition along

[49:51] with me because you know I wasn't just

[49:52] waking up the next day completely

[49:53] different person um and yeah and people

[49:57] do need uh that go through it need

[50:00] therapy need therapeutic help to to work

[50:02] through you know the psychological I

[50:04] mean if you could imagine anything

[50:06] that's more dramatic than changing

[50:07] genders even if you felt all your life

[50:10] you were in the wrong gender there is a

[50:12] big process to go through and I my my

[50:15] heroes are people like the Fords that

[50:18] that support their children I mean um

[50:21] there's and and as uh Jean was saying

[50:25] you know it's um you know the suicide

[50:27] rate that we find uh you know is like

[50:29] eight times higher for those kids who

[50:32] aren't supported by their families and

[50:34] there are places for families to get

[50:35] help uh places like P flag right someone

[50:38] mentioned that yeah and I'm and I mask

[50:41] constantly because I go out and speak in

[50:42] schools and such and and different uh uh

[50:45] at the Museum of Tolerance and I'm ask

[50:47] Often by parents you know what do we do

[50:49] our kid you know is is thinks they're in

[50:52] the wrong body well I said well you

[50:54] can't do this on your own you should go

[50:56] seek professional help but also to join

[50:58] a group there's nothing better that I've

[51:01] seen in terms of the bigger picture is

[51:03] that being in a group of like-minded

[51:05] parents that can help them through that

[51:07] process who've been through it and uh

[51:10] you know that's out there any parent

[51:11] that's questioning right now uh should

[51:13] be joining groups and John and I mean

[51:16] and and Jr and Vanessa I know you can

[51:18] speak for that yeah that's been so

[51:20] critically important hasn't it for you

[51:22] both and and you've become in really

[51:24] sort of like the mother H for many of

[51:27] these parents

[51:29] Vanessa well um it's in my nature but

[51:32] the truth

[51:33] is I am the mother hen but there are so

[51:36] many other mother hens above me um and

[51:39] so the most amazing thing about this

[51:41] journey is that we haven't done it in an

[51:43] insul little pocket um there are

[51:46] families like Debbie Jackson who had

[51:49] Avery on the cover of Nacho and N lame

[51:52] who had the letter to my 5-year-old son

[51:54] in Boston and those were pieces when I

[51:56] first typed in I'm a girl in my heart

[51:58] and my brain their work showed up and

[52:02] all of a sudden I knew there were moms I

[52:04] could talk to and dads that Jak could

[52:06] talked to had been through it and so

[52:09] we're out here we are accessible we've

[52:12] used our real names in a hopes that um

[52:15] other families can find us and that we

[52:17] can help guide them because we are safe

[52:19] with our community and the other thing

[52:21] um for scared parents or for people to

[52:23] know about how difficult this is to

[52:25] transition we just don't know what's

[52:28] going to change in the next decade

[52:30] that's why Dr Olsen's work with the

[52:31] Trans study is so important Ellie's five

[52:34] by the time she's 15 there'll be a

[52:36] cohort of hundreds of kids who are now

[52:39] in their early 20s will gone through

[52:41] puberty blockers who will have had

[52:43] cross- sex hormones and then when Ellie

[52:45] gets there there'll be a whole another

[52:46] set before them and and then finally we

[52:50] really look to people within the trans

[52:52] Community adults to help teach us we

[52:54] don't know Nico was saying you're

[52:56] amazing for real but you were saying

[52:59] that um you know you wish your parents

[53:02] kind of knew the technical aspects I'm

[53:05] so lucky to have friends here and many

[53:07] of the mama bears and Papa bears out

[53:09] there are as well that we have adult

[53:11] friends who are really willing to say to

[53:12] us like this is what happened and this

[53:14] is what they did and this is what things

[53:16] feel like and those conversations are

[53:18] critical because you want your kid you

[53:21] want to understand what choices you're

[53:23] helping your kid make you know there's

[53:26] just a couple of we just have time for a

[53:27] couple more questions of course I could

[53:29] be here all night because I'm love all

[53:32] of you and it's so interesting to me and

[53:34] I really appreciate the questions we're

[53:36] getting from people who watch the

[53:38] documentary but this one sort of broke

[53:40] my heart and I'm not going to use his

[53:43] name I don't know why I feel like I

[53:44] should protect him uh even though he

[53:47] wrote his name but uh this this viewer

[53:50] wrote I watched your show and was moved

[53:52] I can relate in so many ways I always

[53:54] felt like the other gender not my birth

[53:57] gender I've never had the chance to ever

[53:59] talk with anyone about this I'm 54 now

[54:02] and I feel like my real and true life

[54:04] has passed me by I'm moving to Pensacola

[54:08] Florida very soon and don't know how to

[54:10] find a therapist to be able to talk to

[54:12] about this not to mention my age uh at

[54:15] any rate thank you for your interest in

[54:17] information and

[54:19] ideas um I don't know who wants to take

[54:22] that well I just want to say I please

[54:24] don't feel your life as pass your by

[54:27] um I transitioned at

[54:30] 54 so um it's never too late to to

[54:35] realize that there's another life ahead

[54:38] of you and there's you know a a second

[54:41] life that you can live that could be

[54:44] even more fulfilling than the first how

[54:46] would you describe your life before and

[54:48] after this decision well you know it's

[54:52] such a long story but to to you should

[54:54] write a book but to but to cut it short

[54:57] you know I I suppressed it my whole life

[55:00] and and and one of the great ways I did

[55:02] was becoming a Super Jock and and uh and

[55:06] then raising a family of three wonderful

[55:08] kids and a marriage of over 30 years and

[55:12] um and uh and extreme sports and I put

[55:15] all my energy into those things to try

[55:17] and make it go away but eventually it

[55:19] just totally caught up with me and I was

[55:21] falling apart and I I just couldn't do

[55:23] anymore but you know when I fin

[55:25] relationships now though well uh it it's

[55:29] you know not enough is said about the uh

[55:31] family that transitions with the person

[55:34] that's transitioning well we saw with

[55:35] Linda Dora right right and my my three

[55:38] kids um it was tough on them because I

[55:41] was this Macho figure and the super

[55:43] business man that that they looked up to

[55:46] and so I kind of fed off a p pedestal

[55:49] and I had to realize it wasn't until I

[55:51] realized how much they lost that my

[55:53] relationship with them came back

[55:55] together MH

[55:58] and and and there's someone named

[56:00] Kimberly Diana who wrote as a mama of

[56:03] too trans kids by the way just

[56:06] parenthetically how unusual is that to

[56:09] have siblings who are trans and does

[56:11] that sort of um I know with fraternal

[56:15] twins the likelihood of one being trans

[56:18] if if one is trans is very low with

[56:21] identical twins it's 40% as we mentioned

[56:23] in the documentary um is it unusual to

[56:26] have siblings trans siblings or what are

[56:28] your experiences with that well siblings

[56:31] would be the same as fraternal twins

[56:33] right exactly so it's very un unusual

[56:36] yeah it's unusual in the sense that if

[56:37] we believe the conservative number of

[56:39] one and 200 you know you can kind of do

[56:41] the math here a little bit I'm not very

[56:43] good at math Jos help me out um I guess

[56:46] that you know it's then we're looking at

[56:48] that

[56:50] SAR 200 S But but so well it's not

[56:55] completely in common i' would say we

[56:57] have several families in our program at

[56:59] the gender and family project who have

[57:01] two kids siblings who are both trans

[57:03] identified or gender non-conforming and

[57:06] again it's you know we have to think we

[57:08] we're really learning to change our way

[57:10] of thinking about this when you have two

[57:11] children who are both cisgender you

[57:13] don't say this is really suspicious both

[57:15] of them are cisgender right so when I

[57:18] know that statistically it's less likely

[57:20] to happen I think that's the but again

[57:22] we really need to our shift here is that

[57:24] gender is self-determined and that kids

[57:27] will as we let them really identify

[57:30] themselves more early and let us know

[57:32] right and I just want to caveat it's not

[57:33] 200 square because if it's if it's

[57:36] genetic then the chance of it recurring

[57:38] a little bit in the family certainly

[57:39] would make some sense right so well this

[57:42] this viewer goes on to say I'm so glad

[57:45] to see this being produced Katie I

[57:47] noticed the manner in how you ask

[57:49] questions and how you acceptive

[57:50] responses of I'd rather not talk about

[57:52] it bothers me I'm wondering if you could

[57:54] share with viewers more of is polite to

[57:57] ask and how to ask questions in addition

[57:59] to receiving responses that establish

[58:01] personal boundaries like a transperson

[58:04] not wanting to discuss their genitals

[58:05] dead names Etc well since sort of me

[58:08] screwing this up in the first place is

[58:10] one of the reasons I decided to pursue

[58:13] this um you know I think I think that's

[58:16] helpful one of the things I learned in

[58:18] the course of making this documentary

[58:20] and I started to tell you all but I

[58:21] didn't want to say it before we were

[58:23] doing this Facebook live is I used to

[58:25] think think the trans Community or the

[58:27] gender non-conforming community that

[58:30] they needed to help other people

[58:34] understand this issue better and what I

[58:37] realized is that I don't go around

[58:40] explaining myself who I am how I

[58:43] identify and to every person I meet I

[58:47] don't feel like I have to kind of

[58:49] justify that and I think I think even

[58:52] Gavin told me that um you know a lot of

[58:56] why should it all be on your shoulders

[58:59] Michaela or Nico on your shoulders or

[59:02] georganne for you or Gavin to kind of

[59:06] explain uh to the rest of the world who

[59:09] they are why they are and how they've

[59:12] chosen to identify so I learned that so

[59:15] my expectation of whose responsibility

[59:18] it is to educate all of

[59:21] us it it changed in the course of making

[59:24] this film and I realized it's all of our

[59:27] responsibility to educate ourselves and

[59:30] and and having said that to to help each

[59:34] other in the process I think you know

[59:38] sometimes there's too much anger all the

[59:40] way around and that a little patience is

[59:45] as one of the one of your may as May

[59:48] said it yeah radical patience one of our

[59:51] panelists in Washington said you know

[59:53] radical impatience because you can

[59:55] understand that perspective as well but

[59:57] but for those who really in good faith

[01:00:00] want to understand and and want to be

[01:00:03] educated and help others around them be

[01:00:05] educated do you have any advice for for

[01:00:10] them and for Kimberly Diana who asked me

[01:00:12] that question I think every every one of

[01:00:15] us as as trans or gender non-conforming

[01:00:17] people uh become sort of ambassadors for

[01:00:21] the rest for the whole community and

[01:00:23] every day we come in contact with so

[01:00:25] many people that we have that chance one

[01:00:27] at a time to open and change hearts and

[01:00:29] minds and having you said that is it a

[01:00:32] burden sometimes Michaela yeah

[01:00:34] occasionally it is occasionally is I

[01:00:37] think what I would say is that in the

[01:00:38] same way that like you know if you're in

[01:00:40] a classroom right and you have like a

[01:00:42] question you want to ask um would you go

[01:00:44] ask like the professor who like chose to

[01:00:47] take on that role chose to be an

[01:00:49] educator chose to like I'm actively

[01:00:51] going to stand in this position because

[01:00:53] I want you to approach me versus like

[01:00:55] say like your classmates who like maybe

[01:00:56] if they're your friends they'll help you

[01:00:57] out cuz they're your friends and they're

[01:00:59] I understand your intentions are good

[01:01:01] but like your classmates might also just

[01:01:02] be like no like I'm trying to pay

[01:01:03] attention like you know let me just do

[01:01:05] my thing so I think that in that way

[01:01:07] there are definitely people within the

[01:01:09] trans community and like you know the

[01:01:11] interex community as well who are

[01:01:12] willing to be those Educators like I

[01:01:15] know that for myself that's a position

[01:01:16] that I like to put myself in because I

[01:01:19] like being that kind of a resource to

[01:01:21] people but we shouldn't expect it of

[01:01:22] every exactly and like the reason why I

[01:01:24] actively put myself in this position is

[01:01:26] because I know plenty of people who

[01:01:27] don't want to be in this position and

[01:01:29] who don't want to have these questions

[01:01:30] asked but I know that if people interact

[01:01:33] with me that means that they interact

[01:01:35] with those people less with those same

[01:01:37] questions so it's you're a buffer in a

[01:01:40] way exactly and I think that you know if

[01:01:42] I am somebody who is willing to do that

[01:01:44] and I don't necessarily feel it to be as

[01:01:46] much of a burden as it might be for

[01:01:47] somebody else then I feel more compelled

[01:01:50] to do that you know because I'm doing it

[01:01:51] for my community as much as I'm doing it

[01:01:53] for the people who like are trying to

[01:01:55] learn I do it more more for this

[01:01:56] community that like you know wants to be

[01:01:59] understood enough to like be left in

[01:02:01] peace and be left to like you know to

[01:02:04] like do the things that it needs to do

[01:02:06] but you know also doesn't want to be

[01:02:08] completely like shunned or put to the

[01:02:10] side for lack of like understanding or

[01:02:12] just ignorance you know yeah so and and

[01:02:15] also those Us in educational roles have

[01:02:17] to have to actually step up and and use

[01:02:21] those positions to actually educate

[01:02:23] people so that there's certain base

[01:02:25] knowledge and there and it's not just on

[01:02:27] members of the community needing to to

[01:02:29] to to educate everybody georgean you're

[01:02:31] so chatty normally I I figured I was

[01:02:33] going to give you the last

[01:02:35] word oh great well I would just say that

[01:02:37] if you're a parent of an interex child

[01:02:39] or a trans child for that um what have

[01:02:43] you just find a support group Google um

[01:02:47] contact me directly email me I will

[01:02:49] connect you with folks who can help you

[01:02:50] because what parents need is to know

[01:02:53] that they're not alone interex people

[01:02:55] need to know that they're not alone and

[01:02:57] and doctors need to know that we're here

[01:02:59] and you can't continue to do these types

[01:03:01] of procedures and medically unnecessary

[01:03:04] interventions on our

[01:03:06] bodies so find us and and we'll connect

[01:03:09] you with other people well Georgian uh

[01:03:12] thank you for for joining us I like your

[01:03:15] earbuds that's a very good look they

[01:03:18] they match they match your glasses um

[01:03:20] georganne is really funny we've had a

[01:03:22] lot of fun getting to know each other so

[01:03:24] thank you georganne I'm I'm sure I'll

[01:03:26] see you again Joshua are you still there

[01:03:30] hi thank you so much for for please give

[01:03:33] Gavin our best um and and please tell

[01:03:37] him how much I appreciate it his

[01:03:39] participation in this film um I think

[01:03:42] it's important for people to see the the

[01:03:45] real life human being that is part of a

[01:03:48] Supreme Court case so they'll have a

[01:03:51] better understanding as this this

[01:03:53] unfolds in late March so Joshua thank

[01:03:56] you for for being with us Vanessa and Jr

[01:03:59] thank you guys it's late there you must

[01:04:02] be tired I'm tired Ron just woke up so

[01:04:05] Jay was able to keep him upstairs we're

[01:04:07] going to bed soon did Ronnie wake up he

[01:04:10] did we heard his little running feet so

[01:04:12] Jay just went upstairs okay all right

[01:04:14] well we'll let you go thank you very

[01:04:16] much and thanks for helping so many

[01:04:17] families because I know you're

[01:04:20] participating we'll we'll do that and

[01:04:22] NAA and Michaela who I said Mela which

[01:04:25] do you prefer Michaela or Mika either is

[01:04:28] fine but the connect pronunciation is

[01:04:30] Mikela and I said it right thank you in

[01:04:33] the documentary Josh safer thank you

[01:04:35] very much and Jean Malpass thank you my

[01:04:38] pleasure you know it's pretty difficult

[01:04:40] to have a substantive conversation uh

[01:04:42] actually about gender in a two-hour film

[01:04:44] and even more difficult in an hour

[01:04:47] conversation with Facebook and Twitter

[01:04:48] questions but thank you to everyone who

[01:04:51] watched the documentary thank you for

[01:04:52] sending us your questions we're

[01:04:54] providing a free DD and discussion guide

[01:04:56] for educators and um I was really

[01:04:59] impressed with how many schools are very

[01:05:02] kind of forward thinking when it comes

[01:05:03] to this schools camps and other

[01:05:05] institutions anyway uh and and uh

[01:05:09] anything else if you have other

[01:05:10] questions you may be wondering about you

[01:05:12] can visit naot.com gender revolution you

[01:05:16] can also find gender revolution on

[01:05:18] demand on iTunes Hulu Amazon and Google

[01:05:21] Play beginning tomorrow morning and a

[01:05:23] very special announcement we're going to

[01:05:24] be streaming mean gender revolution for

[01:05:27] free for one week starting February 14th

[01:05:30] Valentine's Day on the naio website

[01:05:33] Facebook YouTube Apple TV and the natat

[01:05:36] Geo app which I think is a real Public

[01:05:38] Service hopefully people can watch it

[01:05:40] learn and have conversations about it

[01:05:43] maybe it will help some families out

[01:05:44] there as well anyway thanks again

[01:05:46] everyone thank you for watching good

[01:05:48] night

[01:06:01] [Music]