# Forensic Psychology: The Real World of CSI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOBSYw4KjYg

[00:08] so if we could give Dr kuski welcome good afternoon can everyone hear me okay yes okay U I want to thank uh Dr Vargo and Dr Connors for giving me the opportunity to talk with you today um
[00:28] I'm going to play a little bit off that track thing Community College Student um
[00:33] hopefully you don't take this track um Alpena Community College I was uh on academic probation for a couple of for a year or two and then when they um and many many years later when I sort of figured it out I was awarded their distinguished alumni award in 2004 and and my opening was isn't this great the institution that put me in academic probation is now um awarding me as one of their distinguished alumni so I hope you don't follow that track so if you're a little confused in life you know it could it'll it might it could straighten up for you um
[01:04] what we're going to talk about today is forensic psychology um Dr
[01:11] Connor um gave a little bit of my background.
[01:14] And I'm actually just two blocks down the street here so it's uh kind of nice that um you've got someone in town who can talk a little bit about this.
[01:23] We're going to focus on the real world of forensic psychology and I hope it's not too disappointing.
[01:30] I'm not riding around in the back of squad cars with a gun trying to track down serial killers.
[01:36] Seen many serial killers over the years we can talk a little bit about that.
[01:38] What I think I'm going to do today in the presentation is um I'm going to talk a little bit about forensic psychology in general.
[01:47] Try to give you a taste of how broad the field is and what's involved in the field and then I'm going to highlight a few things that as a working forensic psychologist I deal with on a daily basis.
[02:00] Some of these things I'm sure you've heard of in the media.
[02:03] Insanity competency to stand trial things like that.
[02:05] We'll get into a couple of other um issues um or a couple of other tasks that I do as a working.
[02:13] forensic psychologist uh that have to do with family law.
[02:16] if two people are going through a divorce and they're fighting over custody sometimes the judge sends them to me to do a custody evaluation.
[02:23] I'll talk a little bit about that um I'm planning on talking for about an hour.
[02:27] I've got a lot of slides I don't know if I'll get through all of them we'll kind of see where it goes and then I think the way that this was designed was i' sort of do the presentation for the first hour or so and then just F questions.
[02:38] um and then that can just I like that it was designed that way because in my opinion um when I do talks like this one of the things that I think people get the most out of is when you you put the curriculum down and you start having discussions and asking questions.
[02:56] so where we'll start out today is I'm GNA put up a very very simple um definition of forensic psychology.
[03:05] you'll find out it's not such a simple area or field but uh the definition is really simple application of psychological science within the
[03:14] legal system a little bit on the history of forensic psychology or basically psychologists in court.
[03:23] um it's been an interesting history uh.
[03:26] there's a guy named Hugo munsterberg.
[03:28] isn't that a great name Hugo.
[03:31] munsterberg 1908 wrote uh on the witness stand and uh.
[03:37] Hugo uh I should name if I have any more kids I should name him Hugo.
[03:39] talks about all kinds of fun stuff you know back in these days a hundred years ago when you were a psychology Professor you could just make up stuff and write about it and people try to go out and prove it or prove it prove it or prove it wrong.
[03:54] well Hugo stepped on to some interesting ideas untrue confessions.
[03:59] it's one of his chapters why would people go make a confession when they didn't do it.
[04:04] have you ever heard of this topic in the media at all.
[04:06] it's called false confessions.
[04:08] now Hugo got on to that he also hypnotism and crime.
[04:10] um anyone here of famous cases.
[04:16] well about 20 years ago now where children would be hypnotized and would allegedly tell therapists and police that they were sexually abused in their daycare have you heard about these
[04:28] I mean they were they were a quite spectacular cases 20 years ago
[04:30] well Hugo talks a little bit about that so Hugo was kind of the first forensic psychologist but after he got started throughout the years and throughout the century psychologists have sort of been in and out of court
[04:42] social workers had a much more um strong presence in court up until probably the 1960s and then you would get psychologists in and out but there was no real forensic training programs
[04:54] the 70s things started to get really interesting with the psychologist because Insanity defenses came up you've all heard of that right
[05:03] um some famous cases uh Harvey Milk that Harvey Milk movie I haven't seen that yet I heard as good though
[05:10] uh I think they did an insanity defense they called it the twinkie defense we'll talk a little bit about that stuff so
[05:18] psychologist um one of my colleagues who started our firm in 1972 Don Van ostenberg said when he landed in town um.
[05:27] psychologists weren't allowed in the courts in Grand rap in the 80s.
[05:30] he started breaking into that and now we're an integral part of a lot of um Court decisions within specific types of problems.
[05:40] so we'll get into more of that.
[05:42] so that is a real basic um definition.
[05:46] other examples of forensic forensic pathology anybody remember Quincy.
[05:52] Quincy yeah just the folks that aren't super young Quincy was a forensic pathologist.
[05:58] he was an MD medical doctor right autopsies cause of death we all know about that stuff.
[06:03] forensic science that's the stuff that all the TV shows have right blood splatter analysis and things like that.
[06:10] forensic Dentistry do you ever hear that uh trying to identify um a body um by um bite marks right or
[06:20] bite marks and crimes forensic accounting um that's when um you are arrested for fraud and uh the feds hire forensic accountant to go in and uh look at the way you're keeping your books so all of these so this would be accounting intertwined with the legal system
[06:38] Dentistry intertwined with the legal system oh by the way I forgot to give you my uh little warning um you know I deal with really um kind of nasty people and nasty scenarios all day long so I always have to kind of filter myself that I may give some examples today and I don't mean to offend people or give you disturbing stories but I I you know I talk about this stuff every day so sometimes I might be a little blunt and abrasive and I apologize ahead of time
[07:08] wow look at that the broad area of forensic psychology these are things that a forensic psychologists may have to deal with on a daily basis Insanity evaluations criminal
[07:21] responsibility we're going to highlight.
[07:22] those look uh juvenile competency to stand trial.
[07:25] talk more about that.
[07:27] guardianship do you need a guardian?
[07:30] um a forensic psychologist sometimes has to get involved.
[07:32] police psychology expert testimony.
[07:35] I testify a lot in court.
[07:38] risk for sexual offending disability.
[07:43] um civil litigation.
[07:45] you know what that means if uh someone runs into your car and you sue them and you say that you have a emotional distress and psychological damage you might need a forensic psychology to get involved.
[07:57] I I do some of this uh I tend to work more for the defense.
[08:02] I'm not very good at kind of crafting an opinion to make an attorney happy.
[08:08] um I hope that yeah actually someone sued Toyota and I got hired on that case.
[08:13] interesting American with Disabilities Act.
[08:16] if you have a disability and you need special accommodations or if you get fired and you say it was because of
[08:22] your disability I've had cases like that.
[08:25] Fitness to carry a firearm.
[08:27] um that an interesting one if you've been hospitalized for psychiatric reasons and then you want to conceal weapons.
[08:35] permit um let's see what are false confessions I already mentioned that trial consultation I'll talk about that.
[08:42] that's really interesting um victim psychology we'll talk about Cher Correctional psychology.
[08:50] I was a prison psychologist for seven years um oh here's a good one the psychology of lawyers that's my new area I'm kind of getting into uh the like there's a great book on know thyself lawyer or something like that that I have to order and how do you train lawyers to go into court and do a good job that's really fun.
[09:10] okay so just remember the whole definition is Right application of psychological science within the legal system all right the roles of a forensic.
[09:23] psychologist clinician most forensic psychologists spend most of their time doing this in other words they examine people they look at people they evaluate people they write reports about people I'll skip down to treer treater is um very specific type of um um work if someone's found not competent to stand trial and you know what that you'll know what that means when we leave today um sometimes you have to treat them until they become competent and then a consultant that's stuff that's all over the place um um interview Witnesses strategizing helping attorneys develop a cross-examination of a expert witness psychologist um jury selection we'll talk about that right you've heard of that before that has that's really got some press um okay I'm gonna go through this quick because I want to get to the good stuff application of forensic psychology this
[10:25] is to within criminal proceedings.
[10:27] you could do a pre-trial application of forensic psychology.
[10:29] competent to stand trial.
[10:31] if you're not competent to stand trial they can't take you to court in trial.
[10:37] um I'll get asked to provide a conceptualization of why a person would do this kind of behavior.
[10:45] um sentencing uh that mostly is for federal law where you can go underneath the guidelines of sentencing or over the guidelines of sentencing based on um sort of knowing the psychology of the person and appeals.
[10:55] I'm doing more of that where case will come up for appeal.
[10:59] civil litigation I talked about family court I talked about probate court or things like guardianship.
[11:07] um um competency to make decisions about your medical care stuff like that.
[11:15] all right um the one thing that you have to understand about what a forensic psychologist does is applies principles of psychology.
[11:28] to to a particular legal statute.
[11:32] so what a psychologist of a well-trained forensic psychologist does is they go through a training program.
[11:39] where they become sort of um amateur lawyers.
[11:44] when I went through my training I had to read lots of case law.
[11:48] you know anybody's in law school or is a lawyer they talk about case law you have to read all that.
[11:51] and what you have to do is you have to learn how to interpret statute to a certain degree.
[11:54] not a judge interprets statute right but you have to as a forensic psychologist understand what you're looking at and what questions you're trying to answer for the court.
[12:06] um criminal proceedings the pre-trial criminal responsibility let's jump to that.
[12:13] guy whoa what is that.
[12:16] MCL section 76121 A1.
[12:20] this is the statute in Michigan for criminal responsibility.
[12:26] if as a result of a mental ESS or mental retardation as
[12:30] defined in MCO blah blah blah blah blah.
[12:32] that person lacks substantial capacity.
[12:35] either to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his or her conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law.
[12:41] what does that mean?
[12:43] basically what it means is if someone has done a crime do they have a a mental problem that would make it so they would not understand the nature and quality or wrongfulness of their conduct or be able to control their conduct to the requirements of the law?
[13:03] this is state law federal law is called Insanity.
[13:07] it used to be called Insanity in Michigan but they change it to criminal responsibility.
[13:09] I guess that's a more politically correct term I guess.
[13:12] if you read this it's similar the criminal defense asserting that at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense the defendant as a result of severe mental disease or defect I love that severe that's a good thing to put in there was un able to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness.
[13:32] of his acts okay basically it it says about the same thing um so as a forensic psychologist what will happen is you will get asked to answer the question of insanity or criminal responsibility.
[13:48] so I have to do an evaluation and make an opinion whether or not this person appreciated the nature and quality and wrongfulness of their conduct or could conform their conduct to the the requirements of the law if you are found in and if this goes to court and becomes a big trial you can be found not guilty by reason of insanity or not guilty due to a lack of criminal responsibility.
[14:12] you've heard about these cases before right.
[14:15] Insanity cases how often does it work does anybody know.
[14:21] I'll take a guess go ahead out anybody else have any ideas what's that less than one% you guys are
[14:32] Great, yeah, less than 1%.
[14:34] In 1998, uh, they did a big study and 37% of the public thought or or um in um was it 98, 99.
[14:42] And people, the study said that most people thought 30%, 37% of the time it worked.
[14:49] So this is a hard thing to pull off.
[14:54] Um, what makes this difficult to assess as a forensic psychologist is if someone, um, committed a crime on May 14th at 2:30 in the morning, 2009.
[15:06] And now I see them on December 10th, I have to try to get some understanding of their state of mind at the time of the alleged crime.
[15:14] That's the tough part of, um, applying the statute.
[15:18] Um, there are a lot of famous cases that went nowhere with this.
[15:24] Jack Ruby, you guys know who he is, right?
[15:28] He shot Kennedy.
[15:29] They went for an insanity defense.
[15:32] Sirhan Sirhan shot Bobby Kennedy.
[15:35] they went for an insanity Defense John Wing gasey remember him
[15:41] he was a guy in Chicago who dress up as a clown and had 33 bodies underneath his house
[15:46] he tried didn't work
[15:46] Jeffrey dmer went for this didn't work
[15:53] so you guys are a smarter crowd than a general American public I can tell
[15:58] um you understand that this is something that does not happen very often
[16:02] it may be asserted from time to time so it's really not a legal loophole okay
[16:07] let me give you an example of cases I've had where the person was insane and the person wasn't
[16:12] um I give you ones where they where they were insane
[16:17] um when I was in the feder bureau prisons we had a guy who walked up to the he was mentally ill got out of the psychiatric hospital and an hour later went to MC uh went to the bank and said you sobs give me all my money or I'm blowing this Bank up give me my money
[16:35] they hand him a bag of money he
[16:37] walks across the street to McDonald's.
[16:39] gets a couple of Egg McMuffins goes out and sits on the picnic table in front.
[16:43] puts the bag of money by wa walks to McDonald's.
[16:44] puts a bag of money right on the counter pulls a couple of dollars out of there.
[16:48] goes sits in the picnic table in the front of the restaurant.
[16:52] puts his bag of money and starts to eat his Egg McMuffins when the cops show up.
[16:56] okay this guy obviously didn't have a good understanding of the nature and quality and wrongfulness of going into a bank and demanding money or to be blown up.
[17:04] obviously didn't because they tried to get away.
[17:08] okay um a local case and I'm not I'm not violating confidentiality because this is something that was in the court proceedings.
[17:15] have you heard about the local case where there was a federal agent who was stealing identities it's a few years ago.
[17:23] um I had to examine her and went into court on that.
[17:29] and um she is a federal agent and would walk up with a stolen ATM card that she took out of someone's mail to an ATM with the.
[17:40] camera there put it in and get $20.
[17:44] so obviously understanding the nature and and quality and wrongfulness of her conduct wasn't operating on that particular instance because look at the high probability of being caught but she just didn't get it.
[17:57] now what if you get drunk and you black out right.
[18:05] I don't remember voluntary intoxication um basically takes this off the table.
[18:11] if you get really wasted and do something really bad and don't remember it you're not going to be able to apply this.
[18:19] that one stuck around a long time in Canada but I think they got rid of it about 10 years ago.
[18:24] um if you have a physician prescribing you medications and they're prescribing you medications that are Way Beyond what you should be getting this will apply.
[18:37] the federal agent I spoke about and this is all in the court record and actually was
[18:42] all the media too was on a ton of pain medications and really did not know right from wrong.
[18:53] okay any quick questions on this one.
[18:57] okay I don't know how much people know about this but that's kind of the gist and so I will get these questions from time to time.
[19:05] um the forensic Center in Ann Arbor does most of these for the state um but I'll get uh as a second opinion or um some federal stuff I get directly from the feds because they found out I was in town they called me up one day hey didn't you used to work for us I said yeah and they said can we send people to you instead of North Carolina so I did some of those.
[19:27] um competency to stand trial.
[19:29] Yeah question on that last one how does a f for temporary insanity work.
[19:35] um yeah there's if the drunkenness doesn't work is it just like medication then um
[19:43] temporary insanity uh and permanent insanity.
[19:46] really it's sort of a mute point.
[19:49] they used to talk about temporary insanity but now it's just Insanity.
[19:54] CU at the what we're talking about is at the time your mental state.
[19:55] so so I suppose someone could be insane for a long period of time but um they used to have that delineation but they don't really anymore cuz you just focus on the specific incident.
[20:08] competency to stand trial I'll run through this quick a defendant uh to a criminal charge shall be presumed competent to stand trial.
[20:18] he shall be determined incompetent to stand trial only if he is incapable because of his or her mental condition or understanding the nature an object blah blah blah of of the proceeding against him uh or of assisting in his defense in a rational manner.
[20:35] so what competency really talks to this is pre-trial you go in and if they allege uh you're not competent to stay in trial.
[20:45] that means you would not be able to
[20:46] understand the the nature and object of
[20:48] the proceedings and you wouldn't be able
[20:50] to help assist your defense and it has
[20:52] to be because of a mental disease or
[20:55] defect you need to have a serious mental
[20:57] illness
[20:58] or mental retardation fits this
[21:01] too I do a lot more of this type of work
[21:05] um if you're found not competent to
[21:08] stand
[21:09] trial um they can't charge you with a
[21:12] Criminal um they can't charge you
[21:16] criminally so if you find someone not
[21:18] competent what you also have to do is
[21:21] the forensic psychologist is try to
[21:23] determine and provide an opinion about
[21:25] the the chances of them being being
[21:28] restored to competency within 15 months
[21:32] so if someone um is really mentally ill
[21:35] and you get them on the right
[21:36] medications would they be able to meet
[21:39] this
[21:40] standard um and then it's called a
[21:42] competency
[21:43] restoration if a person has an IQ of
[21:47] 68 which means they're mentally
[21:50] um can you teach them enough
[21:52] about what happens in
[21:54] court um through an educational program
[21:58] competency
[21:59] restoration um there are two states in
[22:01] the country that have
[22:03] extensive great competency restoration
[22:06] programs I mean well funded you go live
[22:09] there for nine months you go to class
[22:10] every day do you want to bet you want to
[22:12] guess what two states have
[22:16] that any on back I'll tell you one
[22:21] Texas you know what the other one is
[22:24] Florida right you know
[22:26] why you got to have someone competent
[22:29] before you can put them to
[22:31] death so if you have a death penalty you
[22:33] better have a good competency
[22:34] restoration
[22:36] program that's interesting isn't it
[22:39] so um one thing that I'll do in this
[22:41] area that
[22:44] um gets to be very very very complicated
[22:48] is juvenile
[22:49] competency you're 14 you have an IQ of
[22:52] 72 and you sexually molested a
[22:55] 5-year-old are you competent to stand
[22:57] trial
[22:59] well we don't have no states that I'm
[23:02] aware of well shouldn't say that Most
[23:04] states do not have a specific statute
[23:06] for juvenile competency so the courts
[23:09] rely on the adult statute so if you're
[23:12] 14 in charge of the crime you have to
[23:14] meet this
[23:16] threshold I do a lot of those it's when
[23:20] I first landed here in private practice
[23:22] eight years ago and with my background I
[23:25] had someone call me up and say geez I've
[23:28] got this 13-year-old that they're trying
[23:29] to basically put away for 10
[23:32] years you know um I don't know if they
[23:34] understand what's going on so I did some
[23:37] homework and tailored some things and
[23:39] wrote some articles about juvenile
[23:40] competency and now I get a lot of this
[23:42] kind of work all over the state um and
[23:45] then I testify
[23:48] um this is a sort of a local case a
[23:51] different County now can't County
[23:52] 7-year-old charged with arson one arson
[23:55] first
[23:55] degree you know what the uh
[23:58] the the penalty for arson one can be um
[24:03] actually I think no no that one doesn't
[24:04] go life but you can get up to 40 years
[24:06] in prison he um was playing with a
[24:09] lighter in the babysitter's trailer and
[24:12] start uh started a closet on
[24:14] fire so arson W so I got the referral
[24:17] and I looked at the date of birth and I
[24:18] called the lawyer up I said is this date
[24:20] of birth right I said yeah so I said
[24:22] what are they going to do with the
[24:23] seven-year-old if they convict him where
[24:25] are they going to send him for prison um
[24:28] anyway I said he wasn't competent that
[24:30] was sort of a slim dunk because then I
[24:32] did his IQ and that was kind of low and
[24:33] he had the mental age of a four-year-old
[24:35] can four-year-olds go into court and
[24:37] understand the nature and object of the
[24:38] proceedings go on the stand and um
[24:40] testify to defend themselves no I'm I'm
[24:44] I'm testifying in a
[24:46] case Friday with a 10-year-old the
[24:51] problem is with these cases is a lot of
[24:52] them are sex cases so you have a
[24:54] 10-year-old that molests a
[24:56] four-year-old um and now now there's a
[24:58] new prosecutor in this one County who
[25:00] doesn't believe in not competent to stay
[25:01] in trial
[25:03] so I'll be driving a lot up there
[25:08] um
[25:10] okay so I guess you're getting the gist
[25:13] that a lot of it has to do with having a
[25:15] technical understanding of the law and
[25:18] applying psychological PR principles to
[25:21] it um I'll do a couple
[25:26] more
[25:28] guardianship is a person an
[25:30] incapacitated person you've got criteria
[25:33] so I look at this question I do the
[25:35] examination and I try to answer a b or c
[25:39] and the Guardians ship's always
[25:41] interesting because you have to look at
[25:42] all the medications they're dosage and
[25:44] try to decide if any of these effects of
[25:46] the medication has on the purp person's
[25:49] AB um behavior and are they
[25:51] incapacitated I'm doing a lot more of
[25:53] these now these are Probate
[25:56] Court um sometimes here's my pessimistic
[26:00] jaded piece sometimes legislatures State
[26:03] legislatures make weird
[26:06] laws um that either you can't apply my
[26:10] greatest story was us talking about this
[26:12] at lunch when I worked in the Iowa
[26:14] prison system and I went to school in
[26:16] Iowa City I did my dissertation on sex
[26:19] offenders of children and um a
[26:21] legislator called me a legislator called
[26:23] me up and said I hey I understand you
[26:25] work at the prison and that you're doing
[26:26] a research study on pedophiles I said
[26:29] yeah he said come talk to us cuz we're
[26:30] going to do a civil commitment law for
[26:32] sexual predators this is in the mid90s
[26:35] we the back then those idea all these
[26:37] states were going to take and make a law
[26:39] where if you were a sex offender they
[26:41] would keep you forever in prison so I
[26:45] went and talked to a bunch of
[26:46] legislators and they totally disregarded
[26:48] everything I had to say and made a law
[26:52] about civil commitment for sex offenders
[26:55] and then they built a $3 million
[26:56] treatment facility
[26:58] a few years later I talked to someone I
[27:00] used to work with who was on the grounds
[27:02] where the facility was and in 5 years
[27:04] the way they wrote the law only two
[27:06] people could sit in that facility so
[27:09] they made this law spend a bunch of
[27:11] money um so here's here's the the newest
[27:15] Michigan one that's
[27:17] interesting sexually delinquent
[27:21] person um this came out 2004 I believe
[27:24] the term sexually delinquent person when
[27:26] used in this act shall mean any person
[27:28] whose sexual behavior is characterized
[27:31] by repetitive or compulsive acts which
[27:33] indicate a disregard of consequences of
[27:36] the recognized rights of others or by
[27:38] use of force upon another person in
[27:40] attempting sexual relations of either
[27:43] heterosexual or homosexual I don't know
[27:45] why that had to be in there must have
[27:46] been Republican thing um or by the
[27:49] commission of sex I shouldn't say that
[27:52] Republican
[27:53] country does it really matter if you
[27:55] attempt sexual relations by force if
[27:57] it's heterosexual or homosexual anyway
[28:00] um my first group of people I offended
[28:03] or by the commission of sexual
[28:04] aggression against children under the
[28:06] age of
[28:07] 16 what happens is is they can find you
[28:10] under the sexual delinquent person
[28:13] act they can go outside the the normal
[28:16] um parameters of sentencing and they can
[28:18] sentence you to life in
[28:20] prison so I got a bunch of these
[28:23] evaluations they said Jeff they're going
[28:25] for sexual delinquent on this guy he's
[28:27] arrested four times for exposing
[28:30] himself they want to put they they're
[28:32] threatening to put him in prison
[28:34] forever well the way that this is
[28:37] written anyone who gets convicted of
[28:39] more than one sex
[28:41] crime Falls within this um what have
[28:44] talked about compulsive acts repetitive
[28:47] or compulsive acts so if you have a
[28:50] person that has you've heard of flashers
[28:53] right they've been around forever I
[28:55] don't do that see I'm not very good at
[28:57] that raincoat thing but if you have a
[29:00] guy who flashes someone who has three
[29:02] counts of flashing should they go to
[29:03] prison
[29:05] forever I mean you know it's sort of a I
[29:07] guess a moral question ethical question
[29:10] um under this statute they
[29:12] could um so by the way those guys are
[29:15] easy to treat by the way you don't need
[29:17] to spend 50 Grand a year to put them
[29:18] away and what they do is not good and it
[29:21] can I suppose cause trauma in people but
[29:24] um they're easy to treat so you know
[29:26] anyway so I I got a bunch of these I
[29:29] must have got 10 of them within a couple
[29:30] of months well every one of them met the
[29:34] criteria for this law every one of them
[29:37] if they had more than one sex offense
[29:39] you know a couple and a lot of them were
[29:40] decent exposure people so or if you've
[29:43] had any um um acts of sexual aggression
[29:46] more than one against a child under the
[29:49] age of 16 so some people may argue hey
[29:51] if you've molested and been convicted of
[29:53] molesting more than one kid you should
[29:55] go away forever okay but the this is the
[29:58] one where it really scooped up a lot of
[30:00] people so I don't get those anymore they
[30:02] don't try
[30:04] anymore all right you getting bored of
[30:07] all the legal mumbo
[30:09] jumbo all right BM profiling everybody
[30:14] wants to know about that
[30:16] right here's the part where I disappoint
[30:18] everybody because what happens in the
[30:20] real world versus on TV a lot of times
[30:22] is not the same all
[30:26] right profiling has been
[30:29] around since the
[30:32] 50s and it's used by people who call
[30:34] themselves behavioral
[30:37] scientists um that can be just about
[30:40] anybody there are FBI agents who have
[30:42] Bachelor degrees in um in um literature
[30:46] from Syracuse who become behavioral
[30:48] scientists um it's often based on
[30:51] Actuarial data sets what that means is
[30:55] insurance companies use Actuarial data
[30:58] sets insurance companies years ago came
[31:00] up with this idea if you R drive a red
[31:02] car you're more likely to get in an
[31:03] accident than if you drive a green car
[31:05] so if you drive a road car they up your
[31:07] rates I don't think they can do that
[31:08] anymore based on huge amounts of it's
[31:12] well it's based on statistics of groups
[31:16] and that's how the FBI got into this
[31:18] business so they did an Actuarial data
[31:21] set on serial
[31:23] killers guess what there aren't a lot of
[31:25] serial killers that are caught right and
[31:29] if you took if you've taken statistics
[31:31] yet you'll understand that in order to
[31:33] get data that's really relevant you need
[31:35] to have huge samples the insurance
[31:38] company with the red car thing had you
[31:40] know 1 million a 1 million customer data
[31:44] set you know um serial killers
[31:47] 400 okay played up in fiction sorry
[31:53] um this is in a lot of the movies where
[31:56] they do profiling the media I should put
[31:58] media plays up this too the media really
[32:01] plays this up okay um I saw I've seen
[32:05] one job for a psychologist in 20 years
[32:08] that talked about
[32:10] profiling so
[32:12] um I talked about the FBI Behavioral
[32:15] Science unit not that this is a bad idea
[32:18] but the way it's used can be the problem
[32:20] it's used to try to catch bad guys
[32:23] cannot use in criminal
[32:26] proceedings
[32:28] um this is a big big no no and judges go
[32:33] crazy when you get less than adequately
[32:36] trained psychologists to call himself
[32:38] forensic psychologist who go in and try
[32:40] to say I know this guy's guilty because
[32:41] of his
[32:42] profile there may be a statute now about
[32:45] criminal profiling and you can't use it
[32:47] in courts but I'll do things like
[32:50] provide a conceptualization of this
[32:52] person and they say you can't do that
[32:53] it's
[32:54] profiling so um not an empirically
[32:58] validated technique that means it's not
[33:01] scientifically proven or sound that
[33:03] using
[33:04] profiling um is accurate does it hurt
[33:08] when you're trying to catch guys that's
[33:10] arguable right we have criminal justice
[33:13] Majors here okay
[33:17] um some criticism is that it doesn't
[33:20] work any better than regular good old
[33:21] detective work concern about false
[33:24] positives you know this term false
[33:26] positive
[33:28] you're considered
[33:30] um um the type of person and it's not
[33:33] true Richard jeel do you remember
[33:35] Richard
[33:36] juel he was the security guard at the
[33:39] Atlanta Olympic
[33:42] games um remember the backpack that blew
[33:45] up I think did it kill some people I
[33:48] know it injured a lot of people if you
[33:50] all remember that I can't remember what
[33:52] year the Olympic that Olympics or
[33:53] Olympics in Atlanta uh Richard juwels
[33:56] spotted a backpack he was a security
[33:58] guard and it blew up I think it killed a
[34:01] couple of people and injured a bunch of
[34:03] people the
[34:05] FBI um did a profile and they said uh
[34:08] it's a white male between the ages of uh
[34:12] 35 and 40 who lives with his mother is
[34:16] likely
[34:17] overweight uh has a strong desire to be
[34:20] a law
[34:21] enforcement so they started looking at
[34:23] Richard juwel I don't know how it got
[34:25] out to the Press so then the press was
[34:27] following Richard jeel around do you
[34:29] remember this he wasn't the guy the guy
[34:33] who did it and I might have the details
[34:35] wrong was
[34:37] um um I think it was a regular white guy
[34:41] whatever that means um who I think did
[34:44] he die up in the mountains of North
[34:45] Carolina or something he was part of a
[34:49] from what I and I know I'm just piecing
[34:51] this together and I'm wrong probably I
[34:53] think he was part of a um kind of a real
[34:56] strong fundament alist Christian group I
[34:58] mean strong like you know um trying to
[35:02] blow people up for God's purpose you
[35:05] know fanatical how does that sound
[35:06] fanatical group and um didn't quite fit
[35:10] the profile that they came up with so
[35:11] this is always a concern you noce they
[35:14] always say it's white males between 35
[35:16] and
[35:16] 40 um who was the killer in Atlanta the
[35:21] serial killer in Atlanta who was killing
[35:23] children 20 years
[35:25] ago he ended up being an
[35:27] African-American guy who lived in the
[35:29] neighborhood but they profiled him as a
[35:32] white guy between 30 and 35 who lives
[35:34] with his mother has never had in his all
[35:35] you
[35:36] know um so that's a big
[35:39] concern okay questions about
[35:46] profiling hope I didn't Crush dreams of
[35:48] wanting to be a criminal
[35:50] profiler um but it's something that's
[35:52] played up a lot in the media and in
[35:53] fiction but um as far as day-to-day work
[35:57] of a forensic psychologist profiling in
[36:00] fact um is really
[36:03] discouraged because imagine if you were
[36:05] the person that fit that profile all the
[36:06] time like Richard juel and then they're
[36:07] following you
[36:09] around risk assessment here's an
[36:12] interesting
[36:14] area and I'll get through this stuff
[36:17] really quick here so I want to move on
[36:19] to
[36:21] some more consultant type stuff this is
[36:24] an interesting area risk to se offend
[36:27] risk for violence institutional domestic
[36:30] workplace School risk to be offend um I
[36:35] had a bunch of referrals by the way none
[36:37] of these are based in statute so what do
[36:39] you do as the forensic psychologist you
[36:42] look at the literature on people who
[36:44] sexually offend and you try to provide
[36:46] some opinion of the person's risk I had
[36:49] a bunch of cases years ago
[36:53] of of um Public School teachers males
[36:58] who ended up getting caught up in a um
[37:01] sex sting in Riverside
[37:04] Park um they would um you know
[37:07] apparently that was a place where they
[37:09] could have Anonymous sexual encounters
[37:11] with other men and um allot these guys
[37:14] are married been working in the school
[37:16] systems for years and years teacher of
[37:18] the year types and um all of a sudden
[37:20] they come on to a cop in the public
[37:22] bathroom well then what happens is is
[37:25] all know a lot of parents get up arms
[37:27] because it hits the media and say this
[37:29] guy's going to molest our kids and the
[37:32] school say well we're going to fire you
[37:35] but they can't so I got a bunch of cases
[37:37] where I had to provide an opinion about
[37:40] this person's um risk to sexually offend
[37:43] against
[37:45] children and um most of them were not a
[37:49] risk to child to children because they
[37:51] were having sex with other men in public
[37:53] bathrooms um in fact here's your little
[37:56] statistic
[37:57] if you are a homosexual male
[38:01] statistically you're less likely to
[38:02] molest a child than a heterosexual male
[38:05] is that interesting so it kind of blows
[38:07] a stereotype away that people may hold
[38:09] so I had a bunch of those cases um risk
[38:12] for violence
[38:14] institutional when I get back here don't
[38:18] call the
[38:19] cops I'm coming back to GRCC tomorrow
[38:22] with a gun and I'm going to do a
[38:23] Virginia Tech thing actual case I had
[38:27] from this
[38:28] campus um the police the institution
[38:33] says this person is not allowed back on
[38:35] campus um are there a risk for violence
[38:38] against others bomb threats had a bomb
[38:40] threat guy at a
[38:42] GRCC that had to evaluate for the courts
[38:45] um
[38:46] workplace right go going postal is that
[38:49] the term you hear now right um is that
[38:51] still a term that people use anymore
[38:53] right because the all the postal workers
[38:54] who would go in and shoot shoot up the
[38:56] place and kill people so I'll get that
[38:59] you know someone will make a threat and
[39:01] the employer takes it very serious okay
[39:04] risk to reoffend uh these are a lot of
[39:07] times folks that are that they're trying
[39:09] to release from prison or jail and you
[39:11] have to assess the risk all right um I'm
[39:14] going to talk very very
[39:18] briefly is is this all right for you
[39:21] guys is this uh are you learning some
[39:24] things are you bored if you're Bo tell
[39:28] me okay um I'm going to talk just really
[39:32] briefly about family law I hope no one
[39:35] in this room I evaluated unless I said
[39:38] good things about you um I'll get
[39:41] referrals for divorce and custody
[39:44] evaluations um people two people get are
[39:46] getting divorced or they've been
[39:47] divorced and now they're fighting over
[39:48] custody of the kids those aren't pretty
[39:51] custody evaluation usually interview Mom
[39:54] Dad all the kids and do yes you do apply
[39:58] a
[39:59] statute Michigan child custody act these
[40:01] are the
[40:02] 12 factors um that the court considers
[40:07] in deciding how to do custody with kids
[40:09] so a psychologist comes in and weighs in
[40:11] an opinion on all of these where's the
[40:14] one I like the moral Fitness of the
[40:16] parents involved that's a cool one
[40:18] here's the one where the psychologist
[40:19] really puts a lot of work into the
[40:20] mental and physical health of the
[40:21] parties
[40:23] involved more often I'll do what's
[40:25] called ability to par
[40:28] evaluations or capacity to parent does
[40:31] this person have any mental illness any
[40:33] problems or an act of substance abuse
[40:35] problems and does this person have an
[40:37] adequate and appropriate understanding
[40:39] of child development of parenting and if
[40:41] there are any deficits or problems
[40:43] outlined above how does it affect his or
[40:45] her ability to
[40:47] parent nasty divorces maybe some of you
[40:50] have been into it they get nasty and Mom
[40:53] says dad's crazy dad says mom's crazy
[40:55] judge will say
[40:56] get this figured out we do these turns
[40:59] out they're both okay they're just in a
[41:02] bad situation and they're just acting
[41:03] nasty to each other well then when side
[41:06] a brings it up again the judge says
[41:07] that's it we covered this so a lot of
[41:10] the judges like these I like doing these
[41:12] too I I I don't like these I don't like
[41:15] psychologists trying to weigh in on on
[41:17] these type of um these are expensive to
[41:20] do too so I'll do a lot of these these
[41:23] will also get used in child neglected
[41:25] abuse cases someone's been accused of
[41:27] abusing their child they'll want to know
[41:29] about their ability to parent and if
[41:30] this comes back bad a lot of times
[41:33] they'll try to terminate a person a
[41:35] parent rights the court
[41:37] will um all right consultant I talked a
[41:41] little bit about consultant
[41:44] role um jury
[41:46] selection that's an interesting
[41:49] area occupation of jury consultant
[41:52] versus trial consultant a jury
[41:53] consultant helps you pick the jury this
[41:56] came around in the 1970s and a lot of
[41:58] social
[42:00] psychologists by the way if you end up
[42:02] going to grad school and psychology go
[42:05] find the social psychology students
[42:07] they're always the coolest students you
[42:08] know what saying they like to party
[42:10] they're a lot of fun social psychologist
[42:12] they really are um this gained a lot of
[42:17] media attention William Kennedy Smith
[42:19] remember they hired one and OJ
[42:22] right oh here we go again there are few
[42:25] if many convincing demonstrations that
[42:27] scientific jury selection is more
[42:30] effective than routine jury selection
[42:33] can you buy a
[42:36] jury
[42:37] maybe probably not um a lot of folks
[42:41] make money doing this it got a lot of
[42:43] media attention you talk to any attorne
[42:45] who's attorney who selected juries they
[42:47] said you can just never predict what you
[42:49] can think of all these things I've been
[42:51] hired to interview Witnesses and look at
[42:54] the W the jury questionnaires I mean and
[42:56] interview potential jurors be involved
[42:58] in that you just never know there's
[43:00] really no method although I think the OJ
[43:02] trial was very interesting because it's
[43:05] more um My Little Theory Johnny Cochran
[43:09] was able
[43:11] to help in my opinion the juries have an
[43:14] emotional response to an issue
[43:17] racism and um there's been an argument
[43:20] they voted on that rather than the
[43:21] evidence I don't know I don't know if OJ
[43:23] did it or not but interesting idea
[43:29] uh a couple of other things you'll do as
[43:30] a forensic psychologist specialized
[43:33] expert
[43:33] witness um I'll testify in a lot of this
[43:37] things already presented but I'll I'll
[43:39] testify in things like bonding and
[43:40] attachment to children do we want this
[43:42] child who's two to do a 5050 custody
[43:46] split with mom in Arizona and dad in
[43:49] Michigan um how's that going to affect
[43:52] bonding and attachment um some other
[43:56] um false allegations of sexual abuse
[44:00] that's an interesting one I testified in
[44:02] an appeals case were uh these
[44:05] allegations of sexual abuse you look at
[44:07] the literature by the
[44:08] way um you know the research literature
[44:12] what's involved in allegation false
[44:14] allegations of sexual abuse did this
[44:16] particular scenario show a lot of those
[44:18] similar characteristics and then the
[44:20] judge or jury can decide Forensic Record
[44:23] review this is the one I really like
[44:25] doing you get to
[44:27] scrutinize people's work so a therapist
[44:31] comes along and tries to do forensic
[44:33] psychology stuff with no training they
[44:35] go into court and they muddy the waters
[44:37] or they come up with conclusions that
[44:38] are just not based in science there's a
[44:41] lot of that out there and I will review
[44:44] the records and testify or help the
[44:46] attorneys get the witness thrown out or
[44:49] um how to cross examine and then trial
[44:51] prep helping the attorney strategize
[44:54] preparation for cross examination of
[44:57] expert
[45:00] Witnesses
[45:02] okay um there are a lot of other things
[45:06] involved in forensic psychology right
[45:09] let's go back around the horn
[45:11] here I taught a whole course on this one
[45:14] time by the
[45:17] way um you know let me tell you quickly
[45:20] how I got involved in this I was working
[45:22] as a I was a grad student at University
[45:24] of Iowa and my advisor John said Jeff I
[45:26] think you should go and work at the
[45:28] prison for a semester I said why would I
[45:30] want to do that John there's just
[45:31] something about you that I think you do
[45:33] well in that
[45:35] environment I don't know what that means
[45:37] but I went there and I I um is this a
[45:41] weird term sort of fell in love with how
[45:43] fascinating it is about why people
[45:46] mistreat each other and I stayed there
[45:49] three years intern there went as a
[45:51] prison psychologist for seven years and
[45:54] now came into private practice and I'm
[45:56] still making a living off of people
[45:58] mistreating each other um to be honest
[46:02] with you it never gets boring that's for
[46:04] sure it's never
[46:05] boring
[46:07] um if you look at how broad the field is
[46:11] um there's all kinds of different stuff
[46:14] I've done most of these but um every
[46:17] once in a while a new one will come up
[46:19] um the civil litigation one is pretty
[46:22] interesting when you're trying to sue
[46:23] other people and talk about emotional
[46:25] distress and damage
[46:28] um I had a big Jeffrey figer case you
[46:31] guys know him a psychologist with the
[46:33] Michigan Department of Corrections was
[46:35] being sued by Jeffrey figer because of
[46:37] an inmate death so I had to evaluate his
[46:40] work and um provide an affidavit which
[46:44] is a written opinion that they can use
[46:45] as evidence in court about what the
[46:47] psychologist did so it um it's a it's a
[46:52] rapidly expanding field my little
[46:54] criticism is there's a lot of people
[46:56] that try to do this work and they
[46:59] haven't had adequate training and um
[47:02] they end up causing a lot of problems
[47:04] you know particularly when we get into
[47:06] the family law
[47:08] issues um or you know Fitness to carry a
[47:10] firearm I won't do these anymore the law
[47:13] is just too weird and um the people who
[47:16] end up coming this is awful to say the
[47:19] people that the court feels need to have
[47:21] a psychological evaluation to carry a
[47:24] firearm probably should be carrying a
[47:26] firearm because you usually need to have
[47:28] reasons for that you know the court has
[47:30] to have reasons for that um so I don't
[47:33] even do those anymore they're just not
[47:34] worth it I don't know of anybody in town
[47:36] that's doing them now so all right I
[47:39] went an hour and 5 minutes or no I went
[47:42] what did I go almost 45
[47:44] minutes um I ran through everything
[47:47] because I wanted to just open it up for
[47:48] questions questions about anything
[47:51] questions about all of this questions
[47:53] about how much do you drink Jeff after
[47:55] dealing with these these people every
[47:57] day Jeff
[48:00] the somebody wanted to become a friendly
[48:03] psych your question yeah what what it
[48:06] look like hang on just a second because
[48:09] we're recording this uh for um our
[48:11] consumption later we need to make sure
[48:13] that our questions are asked into the
[48:14] microphone so that the audio can be
[48:15] picked up on the on the tape so um it'll
[48:18] take a little bit longer but we'll be
[48:20] doing shuttling the microphone around
[48:22] you'll all get an opportunity to to ask
[48:23] your questions well Mike you should be
[48:25] running up and down the thing like uh
[48:27] like like Phil Donahue used to do
[48:31] yeah the career path for forensic
[48:34] psychologist um first of all you're
[48:36] going to need to go to graduate school
[48:37] some areas in forensic psychology you
[48:39] can do quite well with a master's degree
[48:42] um uh Correctional psychology you can go
[48:45] work in
[48:46] prisons
[48:47] um typically if you're going to be
[48:50] providing expert testimony which has to
[48:53] do with a lot of these most of the the
[48:55] time you'd want to look at getting a PhD
[48:58] or a sid a doctorate in Psychology you
[49:01] can do it with a masters but you'll get
[49:03] a lot more flak from attorneys there are
[49:05] some folks in town with master's degrees
[49:07] that testify in court and do a good job
[49:09] in this they've had really good training
[49:10] so you've got the academic training you
[49:13] need to have a license right you
[49:15] probably need to be a psychologist
[49:17] rather than a social worker because
[49:18] psychologists understand psychological
[49:20] testing a lot of other fields like
[49:22] licensed professional counselor and
[49:23] social workers really don't get training
[49:25] testing cuz for a lot of these you have
[49:27] to do psychological testing and then
[49:29] what you need to do is if you can get an
[49:31] internship um that's the key because you
[49:35] get in a um structured training program
[49:39] some people retool they go and they
[49:41] become therapists at a community College
[49:44] Counseling Center and say I want to be a
[49:46] forensic psychology so they end up
[49:48] taking um a lot of they read a lot of
[49:50] books take sanctioned coursework through
[49:53] American Psychological Association or
[49:55] some of the forensic um outfits and then
[49:58] they're able to get um competent in
[50:01] these but if you're going to go that
[50:02] route you're probably need to have some
[50:04] pure supervision by someone who does
[50:07] this work and has had specific training
[50:08] in it so it's quite a process you know
[50:10] PhD is going to take you altogether 10
[50:14] years um but it can be done there's a
[50:17] lot of Need for people to do this work
[50:19] in in a good competent way good question
[50:23] what we're gonna what we're gonna do is
[50:24] uh you can
[50:26] ask your question and then um uh Frank
[50:28] Dr Conor is going to repeat it so we
[50:30] don't keep running the microphone back
[50:32] and forth so got one here okay what's
[50:34] your question um when you were talking
[50:36] about juvenile
[50:38] confidence
[50:40] and I'm I'm just curious do you
[50:44] determine if they're competent to stand
[50:46] trial if they're competent to know the
[50:48] law and then like when they get older is
[50:52] there something where they say okay now
[50:54] they're older we can
[50:56] so so the question is around juvenile
[50:58] competence when you were evaluating it
[51:01] what are you looking at great question
[51:04] juvenile competence is a is a funny one
[51:07] like I said there's no adult there's no
[51:09] Statute in Michigan in Most states about
[51:10] juvenile competence so the adult
[51:12] statutes say mental disease or defect in
[51:14] the casea that's usually defined as a
[51:16] serious mental illness schizophrenia
[51:18] bipolar disorder stuff like that um or
[51:21] mental retardation so what if you get a
[51:24] 10-year-old who's not mentally
[51:26] and they don't have mental illness but
[51:28] they're
[51:29] 10 or they're seven one thing that the
[51:33] case law allows you to do is to talk
[51:36] about emotional
[51:38] maturity frustration tolerance as part
[51:41] of the developmental age of the
[51:43] child
[51:45] 8-year-olds can be pushed around by
[51:47] adults on the stand the case I think I'm
[51:49] going to testify in no it's I got
[51:51] another case I'm going to testify in
[51:53] with this prosecutor who doesn't like my
[51:56] work is um Can a 9-year-old have the
[52:00] emotional maturity to sit in court and
[52:03] Beyond the stand for
[52:05] cross-examination not many of them okay
[52:08] so with juvenile competency I get a
[52:10] little more
[52:11] leeway that can be dangerous so you sort
[52:13] of need to know what you're doing um but
[52:17] um so juvenile competency those are the
[52:19] things I look at competent to stand
[52:22] trial or competent to understand the law
[52:24] competent to understand trial is the big
[52:26] part understanding the law is a piece of
[52:27] it understanding the
[52:30] law um being able to behave
[52:32] appropriately in the courtroom if you
[52:35] have a kid who's nine and has
[52:37] ADHD uh and is not on any medications is
[52:40] he paying
[52:41] attention right so those are other
[52:43] things you look at so the juvenile you
[52:45] get a little bit more leeway and the
[52:46] judges tend to let that in and the case
[52:48] law supports it to but great
[52:53] question earlier you said
[53:04] right great question so so the question
[53:07] is with G with John Wayne gayy how is
[53:10] killing 33 people not insane okay did
[53:14] John Wayne now see you're you're you're
[53:17] you're getting into an area which is
[53:18] really
[53:19] fascinating for what a forensic
[53:21] psychologist has to do you go Jeff how
[53:23] can you talk to people about this stuff
[53:24] all and it doesn't drive you baddy
[53:26] because my job's very
[53:28] specific what he did was reprehensible I
[53:31] mean I've talked to people who've killed
[53:32] their own children in all kinds of bad
[53:34] ways I won't share with you but all I
[53:36] have to answer did John Wayne gasy
[53:40] appreciate the nature and quality or the
[53:42] wrongfulness of his acts
[53:45] okay and was there mental disease or def
[53:50] or um or was he able to conform his
[53:53] conduct to the the requirements of the
[53:56] law I don't know a lot of specifics
[53:57] about the gasey case but here's what I
[53:59] do know that I can tell you he planned
[54:02] these okay um he tried to cover them up
[54:07] he hid the bodies when they asked him
[54:08] about it he said I didn't do that okay
[54:11] so you argue he understood the nature
[54:14] and quality of the wrongfulness of his
[54:17] acts regardless of how repr
[54:20] reprehensible they were he's a sociopath
[54:22] I could talk about sociopaths now some
[54:25] people would say did he have this um
[54:27] urge or this compulsion to rape and kill
[54:30] children that he couldn't
[54:33] control that's a high hurdle to get over
[54:35] you have to attach it to a mental
[54:37] illness so what mental illness results
[54:41] in a symptom where you have to rape and
[54:44] kill children there is none so you have
[54:47] to attach everything to a symptom of a
[54:50] mental disease or defect Cas says a
[54:53] mental illness or mental ration
[54:57] sociopath I'll tell you that's what a
[55:00] lot of serial killers are um sociopaths
[55:02] do not have a connection to people like
[55:04] most of us do I heard a great example
[55:06] for a sociopath to punch you in the face
[55:08] would be like punching a
[55:10] board and here I'll get gross how can
[55:12] sociopaths cut people
[55:14] up cut people up have you ever cut a
[55:18] chicken breast in half did you cut your
[55:19] sandwich in half today that's the same
[55:22] thing for a sociopath they don't have
[55:23] that connection cutting a a person's
[55:26] head off sorry is like cutting a piece
[55:29] of chicken in half there's no
[55:31] connection sociopath is not a
[55:34] diagnosis if it became a diagnosis what
[55:38] would that do to Insanity defenses for
[55:41] serial killers so you have to attach it
[55:43] to a symptom of a mental illness so
[55:45] regardless of how awful the thing is
[55:47] they did I know you're going this person
[55:48] must be crazy to do something like that
[55:51] well is it a diagnosable mental illness
[55:54] um and at I tell you anytime that
[55:55] someone plans it and tries to cover it
[55:57] up they've kind of taken this off the
[55:59] table most of the time unless they're
[56:01] planning it and covering it up is based
[56:02] on a delusion you know um did I answer
[56:06] your question
[56:09] okay
[56:12] contary gu or
[56:17] find
[56:21] other great temporary like an active
[56:24] passion you come home you find your
[56:27] spouse in bed with somebody else and you
[56:28] kill them both I don't have that Statute
[56:31] in front of me guess what act of
[56:33] passion is an actual there is an actual
[56:36] law about an act of passion
[56:38] now um in the old days I'll talk very
[56:42] briefly because you know I'm a PhD I
[56:43] talk more I like to hear myself talk
[56:47] right um well you laugh
[56:51] at um insanity and Criminal lack
[56:55] criminal
[56:56] responsibility um became much more well
[56:59] defined in the 19 in the early
[57:01] 1980s for example before the early 80s
[57:05] in a lot of states the burden of proof
[57:08] for Insanity was on the um
[57:13] prosecution what that means is the
[57:15] prosecution had to prove you're
[57:17] sane they lost a lot of cases the Harvey
[57:20] Milk twinky defense they couldn't prove
[57:22] the guy was saying the burden of proof
[57:25] shifted in most States and it's in all
[57:27] states now shifted onto the defense so
[57:30] the defense has to prove the person was
[57:33] insane an act of passion which is you
[57:35] walk in on your spouse and they're in
[57:37] bed with someone else and you flip out I
[57:39] blacked out I snapped isn't there one of
[57:42] these shows called
[57:45] snapped
[57:46] um that used to work in the older
[57:51] Insanity laws they got rid of that but
[57:54] it's still around in Michigan you can
[57:56] only use it in sentencing
[57:58] now so um I walk in on my wife and kill
[58:03] the guy that she's sleeping with active
[58:05] passion all right am I criminal
[58:07] responsible well did I know the nature
[58:09] and consequences of my actions yeah I
[58:10] tried to bury him in the backyard um
[58:13] could I conform my conduct to
[58:15] requirements of the law well was there a
[58:17] mental illness that was involved in
[58:21] my snap being you know snapping probably
[58:25] not a symptom of a mental illness
[58:27] there's not you know um like finding
[58:29] your spouse in bed with somebody else
[58:31] rage syndrome that doesn't exist right
[58:34] um but what'll happen is is I cut a deal
[58:38] and I say okay I'm
[58:39] guilty um sentence me judge and the
[58:43] judge sends and the attorney sends you
[58:45] to a forensic
[58:46] psychologist and I pull up the idea of
[58:49] Act of
[58:50] passion and evaluate the person to see
[58:53] if it was based on an act of of passion
[58:55] so I say it was you know the person had
[58:58] been cheated on by six people in the
[59:00] past um you know they had a little bit
[59:03] of depression they had low self-esteem
[59:05] and all of this happened and they just
[59:07] it was an Impulse that they freaked out
[59:09] and they did something out of character
[59:12] that's a thing they like then it goes to
[59:15] the judge and then the judge decides and
[59:18] the judge say you know what that
[59:19] happened to me too and um time
[59:23] served or you know what I'm not buying
[59:25] it you're getting
[59:27] 30 to life I mean so it really falls
[59:30] into the judge's La it's not used very
[59:32] often anymore but it used to be part of
[59:34] the old Insanity stuff it's a great
[59:36] question though good
[59:39] stuff I have a question about when you
[59:42] talk about parent
[59:44] evaluation State ofer
[59:47] system having decide whether to send a
[59:49] child back to a biological parent who
[59:52] may
[59:53] not
[01:00:02] so so the question is around parent
[01:00:04] parental evaluation foster care taking a
[01:00:06] child out of their biological
[01:00:09] home um yeah boy and I do quite a bit of
[01:00:12] work in that
[01:00:14] field what'll happen is I give you a
[01:00:16] scenario is um someone gets a child gets
[01:00:19] put into foster care and they're in
[01:00:21] foster care and the parent has say a
[01:00:24] substance abuse problem and a little bit
[01:00:26] of
[01:00:26] depression um so the the
[01:00:30] child within a year the court has to
[01:00:34] make a decision whether to allow the
[01:00:36] child to go back or terminate the rights
[01:00:38] of a parent so the parent typically has
[01:00:41] a year to shape up they work a treatment
[01:00:44] plan with the Social Service
[01:00:46] Agency um you know um there will be
[01:00:49] requirements like you can't use drugs or
[01:00:51] alcohol if that's one of your problems
[01:00:52] you need to get in therapy and get
[01:00:54] medication for depression so then after
[01:00:56] a year if they haven't got their act
[01:00:58] together often times the prosecution the
[01:01:01] prosecutor moves towards terminating the
[01:01:03] rights and what that allows is now that
[01:01:06] child if they do are successful they
[01:01:07] hold a trial they're successful in
[01:01:09] terminating the rights they'll bring me
[01:01:11] in a
[01:01:12] testify um if they're successful in
[01:01:14] terminating rights then that child's
[01:01:16] eligible for
[01:01:17] adoption now yeah funding in the foster
[01:01:20] care system has really affected things I
[01:01:22] think we're seeing less work coming from
[01:01:25] social service agencies in the court
[01:01:27] with this now um we used to see a lot of
[01:01:30] people but there's just not the money so
[01:01:32] there we're getting more of the just
[01:01:33] really severe cases or the judges like
[01:01:36] our work a lot there's about four or
[01:01:38] five of us in our firm who do this the
[01:01:40] judges really depend on it because when
[01:01:42] you go in and you testify you know as an
[01:01:44] expert yeah the person's got a cocaine
[01:01:46] abuse program this a problem this is
[01:01:48] what they need to do to straighten up
[01:01:50] this is what they need to to treatment
[01:01:51] yeah they got that some depression they
[01:01:52] need to do this or they got a
[01:01:54] personality disorder it's not looking so
[01:01:57] good you know about personality
[01:01:58] disorders well then if the judge moves
[01:02:00] to terminate rights and it comes back on
[01:02:02] an appeal they can say look at our
[01:02:04] psychologist the psychologist said this
[01:02:07] so the judges they scramble a lot of
[01:02:10] times to find play social service
[01:02:13] agencies I think scramble to find money
[01:02:14] to pay us to do these we do them at a
[01:02:17] discounted rate because um a lot of
[01:02:19] people my practice are old hippies they
[01:02:21] think that's important so I'm an ' 80s
[01:02:23] kid so I just care about me right um and
[01:02:27] then um um so they struggle to find the
[01:02:29] funding but the judges really rely on
[01:02:31] these cuz you don't want to sort of do
[01:02:34] it incomplete and then it comes back in
[01:02:36] appeal and the kid's already been
[01:02:37] adopted by another family and you got to
[01:02:38] pull out it's a real mess so good
[01:02:42] question uh when you're determining uh
[01:02:45] an individual's risk to reoffend what uh
[01:02:48] what factors do you account for so the
[01:02:50] question is around how do you determine
[01:02:52] the the risk to reoffend uh depends on
[01:02:54] what they're that you're trying to
[01:02:55] answer sexually reoffend what you do is
[01:02:58] you there's a lot of great research
[01:03:00] particularly the Canadians the Canadians
[01:03:02] are miles ahead of us on all of this
[01:03:06] stuff um the Canadians did a big study
[01:03:09] of 10,000 sex offenders and they made a
[01:03:12] bunch of variables drop out Actuarial
[01:03:15] variables your age how does that there's
[01:03:18] rating systems you can do you can
[01:03:20] actually come up with an
[01:03:22] equation that can fit into higher low
[01:03:24] risk so you've got a bunch of factors
[01:03:26] and you know there's a couple of
[01:03:28] different rating skills that I like and
[01:03:30] you check and if they have this number
[01:03:33] of factors they're associated in the
[01:03:36] normative sample we're getting into
[01:03:37] psych testing the normative sample with
[01:03:39] folks who have
[01:03:40] reoffended violence risk um you know um
[01:03:45] you look at there are things called uh
[01:03:48] static variables unchanging variables um
[01:03:51] you never finished or um the one I like
[01:03:53] with violence is um um a history of
[01:03:56] behavioral problems in elementary school
[01:04:00] that's been associated in the research
[01:04:01] of with potential for
[01:04:03] violence um so those are static there's
[01:04:06] a lot more work that's being done now on
[01:04:07] dynamic or changing variables that's a
[01:04:11] tough one you know um your level of
[01:04:15] depression how does that impact a lot of
[01:04:17] times for the forensic psychologist it's
[01:04:19] a bit of a judgment call you'll get a
[01:04:21] bunch of factors the one scale I use for
[01:04:23] the sexual for the sexual offending risk
[01:04:27] they got a section at the end any other
[01:04:29] pertinent variables well I know from my
[01:04:31] own research my own experience um you
[01:04:34] know there are certain things that put
[01:04:35] you at higher risk to sexually offend
[01:04:38] for you know so I might plug those in so
[01:04:41] that that stuff gets slippery because
[01:04:43] there's not a statute to base it on so
[01:04:45] you got to go to the research good
[01:04:47] question though by the way really quick
[01:04:48] the
[01:04:49] Canadians um they do everything on this
[01:04:53] if you go to prison and camp Canada the
[01:04:54] psychologist that does your intake has
[01:04:57] your Elementary School records in front
[01:04:58] of them you imagine that to be in in
[01:05:02] Canada if you're going to be sentenced
[01:05:03] on a violent or sex crime you go see you
[01:05:06] go see a forensic psychologist and they
[01:05:09] determine what would be what they say in
[01:05:11] the best interest of the Canadian
[01:05:13] citizens so basically if you're low risk
[01:05:15] to reoffend they put you on community
[01:05:18] probation if you're high risk to be
[01:05:20] offend they put you away for a long time
[01:05:22] they'll base their sentencing decisions
[01:05:24] on that we don't do that here in at
[01:05:27] least in Michigan we don't so you get
[01:05:29] some really weird sentences
[01:05:32] um I tell you this quick story involves
[01:05:36] sax so everybody will listen and weird
[01:05:40] stuff and this is all in the court
[01:05:41] record I saw a guy one time that
[01:05:45] um 16-year-old boy was at his
[01:05:48] house and um he took a picture of the
[01:05:52] 16-year-old boy's butt with a camera
[01:05:54] phone by the way camera phones made me a
[01:05:56] lot of money because of everybody taking
[01:05:57] pictures of and um um he also had sex
[01:06:02] with the kid too but it wasn't ille he
[01:06:05] was 50s in his 50s oh he's not here it
[01:06:08] wasn't illegal for him to have sex with
[01:06:10] the 16-year-old boy cuz 16 is a legal
[01:06:12] age of consent but it was illegal to
[01:06:14] take a picture of his naked butt so then
[01:06:17] the judge sentenced the guy to every
[01:06:20] weekend in prison for three years or
[01:06:22] every weekend in jail for three years
[01:06:25] it's really weird so the Canadians they
[01:06:28] have a lot of structure set on this we
[01:06:31] don't yeah that was one of the weirdest
[01:06:32] sentences I've ever seen apparently you
[01:06:35] only take pictures of 16-year-old boys
[01:06:37] butts on weekends or something I don't
[01:06:38] know hope no one's related to that judge
[01:06:40] that did that sentence
[01:06:42] but like I said doesn't get
[01:06:46] boring other questions
[01:06:49] yeah
[01:06:53] psychology
[01:07:01] that's a great big question so the the
[01:07:03] Constitutional question around how does
[01:07:05] the forensic psychology relating to
[01:07:07] Fitness to carry a a firearm relate to
[01:07:11] constitutional right to carry not carry
[01:07:14] great question Michigan has a very
[01:07:16] specific statute and criteria about what
[01:07:19] you need to be or in order to carry a
[01:07:22] firearm the forensic psychologist pulls
[01:07:25] that statute out and looks at it and I
[01:07:28] don't remember the criteria I've top my
[01:07:30] head but they're sort of weird and you
[01:07:33] have to look through and
[01:07:36] apply the
[01:07:38] statute to the psychology of the person
[01:07:41] how that goes to Bill of Rights I think
[01:07:44] the issue would be um some people would
[01:07:47] argue well based on the Bill of Rights
[01:07:48] you can't design these requirements that
[01:07:51] would probably be um a bill of right
[01:07:53] rights Advocates idea that it's a
[01:07:56] fundamental right and you can't put
[01:07:57] restrictions on that right so you're
[01:07:59] kind of getting into a legal argument
[01:08:00] but the forensic psychology just gets
[01:08:02] the statute and uses that as a
[01:08:05] template did I answer your question okay
[01:08:08] a question
[01:08:10] here I've been doing a lot of research
[01:08:12] lately and I've run across defense
[01:08:15] called homosexual Panic have you ever
[01:08:18] been into that I've never heard about
[01:08:20] but tell me about it um it's where
[01:08:23] somebody who committed a violent act
[01:08:26] against a homosexual can assert it
[01:08:30] because they aren't in the right state
[01:08:32] of mind so it's basically like temporary
[01:08:35] you know what I have heard a little bit
[01:08:37] about where is that happening um it was
[01:08:40] used
[01:08:42] inew oh that's right yeah I don't know a
[01:08:46] lot about that case but um I don't think
[01:08:49] that's well that's an interesting one so
[01:08:52] they're trying to use it as sort of a
[01:08:55] temporary insanity well homosexual Panic
[01:08:58] is not a diagnosable mental illness
[01:09:01] right it's not a is it a mental disease
[01:09:03] or defect well not based on what the
[01:09:05] case law says so I don't know how that
[01:09:07] could go anywhere did it did it work um
[01:09:10] from the article that I read it said
[01:09:12] that um it didn't like completely get
[01:09:16] them off but it lower their
[01:09:20] sentence at least in the case of Matthew
[01:09:24] okay a
[01:09:25] couple it lowered their sentence so the
[01:09:27] judge considered that
[01:09:31] wow wow you know you wonder if those
[01:09:33] cases come back on appeals if for
[01:09:35] example there are certain groups who
[01:09:37] could fund attorneys to say that that
[01:09:39] was an unjust sentence and the person
[01:09:41] should get more but yeah I don't think
[01:09:43] they could use it for insanity or
[01:09:45] criminal responsibility because there's
[01:09:46] not it's not a diagnosable mental
[01:09:48] illness good good question thanks for
[01:09:50] educating
[01:09:52] me here um I have a question about um
[01:09:57] something I saw in a news article or
[01:09:58] something that um apparently there's a
[01:10:00] lot of um like adolescence 13 teenagers
[01:10:04] that are um sending new pictures of each
[01:10:06] other yeah over um phones and I was
[01:10:08] wondering how the are treating that as
[01:10:11] like technically child but at the same
[01:10:13] time in their state of mind it's normal
[01:10:16] to them that's a great question so the
[01:10:19] question is around sexting the idea of
[01:10:21] 13year olds taking graphic sexual images
[01:10:24] of each other and sending it via the via
[01:10:27] cell phones yeah or um you know the high
[01:10:30] school party breaking in the door and
[01:10:32] taking a picture of somebody having sex
[01:10:34] and send it to everybody and send
[01:10:35] everybody's Facebook or videos and stuff
[01:10:38] how are the courts hand you know in my
[01:10:40] experience they're handling it in all
[01:10:41] kinds of different ways I had a couple
[01:10:43] of
[01:10:45] cases
[01:10:46] um and the Michigan laws about sex abuse
[01:10:51] are weird for example and I was in Iowa
[01:10:55] it was very strongly written in the law
[01:10:58] that if two people have sex and they're
[01:11:00] both under the legal age of consent
[01:11:02] 16 there needs to be a 5-year age span
[01:11:06] before you can um prosecute on a sex
[01:11:09] crime we don't have that standard set in
[01:11:12] stone in Michigan so what I'm finding in
[01:11:15] these cases with the the cell phone
[01:11:17] images um I've had a case where um they
[01:11:20] tried to charge a CSC but it didn't
[01:11:22] really go anywhere
[01:11:24] um there's a lot of I do know that
[01:11:26] there's a lot of um arguing and appeals
[01:11:29] cases about that so sort of the jury
[01:11:32] still out in the way the courts are
[01:11:33] handling that in my experience dealing
[01:11:35] with I've probably had about four or
[01:11:36] five of those cases what ends up
[01:11:37] happening is is I'll do an evaluation of
[01:11:40] the kid who sent it it really doesn't
[01:11:43] say much and then they end up settling
[01:11:47] it um most of the time in a nonsexual
[01:11:49] offense like a disorderly conduct I've
[01:11:52] only had about four or five experiences
[01:11:54] of that but I know that that's one
[01:11:55] that's being challenged a lot in courts
[01:11:57] I had a bunch of those a couple years
[01:11:59] ago um I haven't had any lately so the
[01:12:02] jury's still out yeah with technology
[01:12:05] coming online whoa I mean it's really
[01:12:07] thrown a lot of things upside down you
[01:12:09] know you get this is did this kid do
[01:12:11] this because of um well Criminal Intent
[01:12:14] I'll talk about that for about one
[01:12:16] minute Criminal Intent your ability to
[01:12:19] form intent to do a criminal act we used
[01:12:23] to have a thing in Michigan law called
[01:12:25] diminished
[01:12:26] capacity which says because of a symptom
[01:12:28] of mental illness your ability to form
[01:12:32] intent in other words you want to do a
[01:12:33] bad thing was diminished they got rid of
[01:12:37] this in
[01:12:37] 1998 out the
[01:12:40] window what I do in my juvenile
[01:12:43] cases is I talk about a thing called
[01:12:46] culpability which fits in with this if a
[01:12:50] child's culpable that means it was more
[01:12:51] of a character-driven
[01:12:53] behavior and it wasn't um based on or
[01:12:57] influenced by symptom of mental illness
[01:12:59] give you an example kid um standing in
[01:13:01] line at Meyer with his mom 13-year-old
[01:13:06] ADHD not he's on a he's it's the summer
[01:13:09] weekends he's not taking his medication
[01:13:12] he reaches out and grabs a girl's butt
[01:13:13] in
[01:13:15] line um I shouldn't say girl she was an
[01:13:18] adult woman the adult woman files um
[01:13:22] sexual assault char against 13-year-old
[01:13:24] and says I want that kid
[01:13:27] prosecuted
[01:13:29] well so was the kid uh criminally
[01:13:32] responsible was the question I had well
[01:13:35] he knew it was a wrong thing to
[01:13:36] do but one of the Hallmark symptoms of
[01:13:42] ADHD is
[01:13:44] impulsivity and uh he was very impulsive
[01:13:46] and not on his medications so I
[01:13:48] basically wrote about his culpability
[01:13:51] was this really a bad kid who was doing
[01:13:53] something
[01:13:54] forming Criminal Intent I want to do
[01:13:56] something bad or was this a kid who just
[01:13:58] had an urge had ADH off his medication
[01:14:01] and grabbed her so we did kind of a back
[01:14:04] door diminish capacity because do you
[01:14:06] want your 13-year-old ADHD who grabbed
[01:14:09] someone's butt in the in the um in the
[01:14:12] line at Meyer to be on the sexual fendo
[01:14:16] registry and probably not be able to you
[01:14:19] know get a job
[01:14:21] someday so
[01:14:24] hope I answered your question
[01:14:35] [Music]
[01:14:52] yeah
[01:15:01] do
[01:15:03] anything I mean what happened there so
[01:15:06] the so the question is around um
[01:15:08] Prosecuting a an adult for grabbing his
[01:15:11] son's arm and taking him out of the
[01:15:13] store well I think the one thing you're
[01:15:15] talking about too is there's a regist a
[01:15:17] registry of people who've been um
[01:15:20] substantiated with doing child abuse
[01:15:22] there's a registry there's a sex
[01:15:24] offender registry we all know about that
[01:15:25] there's also a registry with the police
[01:15:27] about people been
[01:15:30] um so the idea is I've had cases like
[01:15:34] that actually where the person gets on
[01:15:35] the registry um they have to be
[01:15:38] substantiated through Child Protective
[01:15:39] Services typically Child Protective
[01:15:42] Services does an assessment and said yes
[01:15:44] you did abuse boom you're on the
[01:15:47] registry Child Protective Services is a
[01:15:49] is an interesting area um the way the
[01:15:54] laws apply with child protective
[01:15:55] services are a bit different than they
[01:15:57] do with a lot of other things so a per a
[01:15:59] Child Protective Services worker can go
[01:16:00] through the
[01:16:01] process put you on the registry as
[01:16:03] someone who's been substantiated of
[01:16:05] abuse and that could affect you maybe in
[01:16:08] some ways I see it in divorces a lot so
[01:16:12] um yeah I mean I believe me child
[01:16:14] protect Services send me a lot of work
[01:16:15] they do great work but the way the law
[01:16:17] applies to them is a little different
[01:16:19] than a lot of other mechanisms there in
[01:16:21] society so hope I answered your question
[01:16:24] or addressed
[01:16:25] it
[01:16:28] yeah if you're evaluating a person that
[01:16:31] committed a crime you know like say
[01:16:33] three months ago or something like that
[01:16:35] what do you do to figure out where they
[01:16:38] were at when they committed the so the
[01:16:40] question is how do you go back and
[01:16:42] recreate the state the person was in
[01:16:44] months after the crime was committed
[01:16:47] great question that's that's one of the
[01:16:49] most difficult things in doing criminal
[01:16:52] responsibility
[01:16:54] evaluations
[01:16:56] um so what you have to do is you have to
[01:16:59] find out okay what day was it May 15th
[01:17:01] all right do you remember that day yeah
[01:17:03] I've got the police report in front of
[01:17:05] me that's a big key I need to have the
[01:17:07] police report and then I'll say things
[01:17:09] all right well tell me what happened
[01:17:11] what did they say happened what really
[01:17:14] happened back me out what were you doing
[01:17:16] before that while I was riding my bike
[01:17:19] okay well what about that morning did
[01:17:20] anything happen that morning yeah my
[01:17:22] sister called and said that she was
[01:17:23] going to bring the kids over okay so
[01:17:25] what you have to do is you have to
[01:17:27] create or get an assessment of the
[01:17:29] person's mental state prior to the
[01:17:32] alleged crime during the alleged crime
[01:17:35] and after the alleged crime in a lot of
[01:17:38] cases the police report can help you a
[01:17:40] lot if the crime if the police have been
[01:17:43] on scene immediately after the crime
[01:17:45] because the police will make statements
[01:17:47] about the person's um
[01:17:50] presentation um so you really have to
[01:17:53] you have to walk the person back
[01:17:54] starting with the police report and try
[01:17:56] to get an idea what happened that day um
[01:18:00] hear about the truck driver who was um
[01:18:02] it's few years ago was picking up um
[01:18:05] male prostitutes on
[01:18:07] Division and drugging them gluing their
[01:18:11] eyes shut with Superglue you remember
[01:18:13] that case it didn't get as much media
[01:18:15] attention as you would think anyway I
[01:18:17] saw that guy and
[01:18:19] um uh we created uh you know one his
[01:18:22] runs where his runs were what he did
[01:18:25] that day when he went cruising and all
[01:18:28] that kind of stuff so um you start with
[01:18:31] the police report and you kind of work
[01:18:32] both ways out that's a it's that's
[01:18:36] that's a tough thing to do it really is
[01:18:39] particularly if the person was um for
[01:18:41] giving for so out of their mind they
[01:18:42] didn't even know what day it was but
[01:18:44] typically you'll have records of that
[01:18:47] you sometimes you don't so it's a bit of
[01:18:49] a judgment call if you can't make this
[01:18:52] deter
[01:18:53] mination then you have to say um they
[01:18:57] were likely criminally responsible you
[01:18:59] have to basically prove that they
[01:19:01] weren't and you as a forensic
[01:19:03] psychologist not as a prosecutor we're
[01:19:06] limit it to a couple of more questions
[01:19:07] so got one over
[01:19:16] here so the question is how do you go
[01:19:19] and have the person relive the day
[01:19:20] without introducing false memories
[01:19:22] correct great question do I have false
[01:19:26] memories up
[01:19:31] here false confession that's not great
[01:19:34] great question okay what what that
[01:19:36] really boils down to there's a bunch of
[01:19:38] this the daycare cases where they find
[01:19:41] out that these therapists and these
[01:19:42] police that were interviewing kids were
[01:19:44] implanting ideas and the kids are
[01:19:45] accepting own so one thing I have to do
[01:19:48] and I had a lot of training on this when
[01:19:49] I went through my training is when I do
[01:19:51] a forensic interview I have to be very
[01:19:54] conscious that I don't provide the
[01:19:57] person details that I just
[01:20:00] speculate what I will do is I'll have
[01:20:02] the police report and I'll say well the
[01:20:03] police report says that you were at your
[01:20:05] brother's house and you ordered a pizza
[01:20:08] okay I've got that right you know what
[01:20:11] happened before that what did you get on
[01:20:12] the
[01:20:13] pizza okay but I have to I
[01:20:16] can't speculate verbally about what
[01:20:19] could have happened or what what would
[01:20:21] not have happened so a lot of times the
[01:20:24] story about what happened that day I I
[01:20:25] won't have the whole story okay but you
[01:20:28] make a great Point you're talking about
[01:20:30] a thing called leading
[01:20:31] questions and if you do if you get
[01:20:34] trained in foric interview you learn how
[01:20:35] to not do that because yeah you can
[01:20:38] implant ideas into people particularly
[01:20:40] if they're in a compromised mental state
[01:20:42] at that time um so sometimes my reports
[01:20:45] will read you know the person really
[01:20:46] didn't know what they did beforehand I
[01:20:48] don't say what I thought they did but um
[01:20:50] great question though that's an
[01:20:51] excellent question
[01:20:56] one last
[01:20:58] question or
[01:21:01] not how do you I see you have various
[01:21:04] education how do you set yourself apart
[01:21:06] from other graduates so that you're
[01:21:08] available for some of the specialized
[01:21:10] cases things you've done so how do you
[01:21:13] set yourself apart as a as a
[01:21:15] psychologist it's a Fric psychologist
[01:21:18] well
[01:21:19] um part of it is doing talks like this
[01:21:22] by the way if you ever have questions
[01:21:23] for
[01:21:24] me that's all my stuff if you want to
[01:21:26] email me how do I set yourself apart
[01:21:28] well uh part of it is I was very
[01:21:31] fortunate to have probably some of the
[01:21:33] best trading in the
[01:21:35] world so when you throw out that
[01:21:36] forensic Bureau prison thing people pay
[01:21:38] attention to that the other thing is
[01:21:40] doing talks like this you know I go and
[01:21:41] I talk the Michigan buyer Association
[01:21:45] here I'll talk to various places Word of
[01:21:47] Mouth helps a lot internet not internet
[01:21:51] just our website but I'll get cited in
[01:21:53] court of appeals cases I've had
[01:21:54] referrals where people say you know an
[01:21:56] attorney will say we ran a lit search
[01:21:58] and your name came up in a court of
[01:21:59] appeals case blah blah blah do you do
[01:22:02] this kind of work so um Word of Mouth
[01:22:05] you know I've been at it now eight years
[01:22:07] and um um my name gets passed around to
[01:22:11] different people I don't really publish
[01:22:13] much I do you know I WR I've written a
[01:22:16] few articles here and there you know
[01:22:19] like the bar association journals and
[01:22:21] stuff like that but but mostly it just
[01:22:23] becomes word of mouth and reputation and
[01:22:25] um doing talks like this I saw you do a
[01:22:27] talk you know like when one of you guys
[01:22:29] sent me a referral in three years I saw
[01:22:31] you at Grand rabbits Community College
[01:22:33] and so that's kind of how you set
[01:22:35] yourself
[01:22:38] apart well thank you
[01:22:41] [Applause]
[01:22:51] thanks