For Ten Years He Got Away With It: The Fake Prophet and His Enablers

Full Transcript

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ5wHSIT7V0

[00:00] It's wild, Gary.
[00:02] It's like the Lord wanted you to get caught.
[00:10] We've caught another fake prophet
[00:12] We've caught another fake prophet red-handed.
[00:14] This video should prove the case to you beyond any reasonable doubt
[00:16] with tons of evidence and expose lies.
[00:19] Now, earlier this year, in a recorded Zoom call, I actually confronted this
[00:22] fake prophet and the guys who've helped cover up for him, a guy named Peter and
[00:26] then more recently, a guy named Allan.
[00:28] Peter, you you cannot tell the truth.
[00:33] Whatever.
[00:34] And this is and this is goes perfectly with Gary being a fraud.
[00:38] Gary, I'm convinced that you are a blasphemer and a fraud who lies in the name of Christ
[00:45] and then demonizes the very Christians who try to hold you accountable.
[00:48] It's disgusting.
[00:50] and Allan, you seem crippled to have the ability to just have the integrity to call out your own people,
[00:57] which is cuz this is what happens is what happened to these guys when they stood forward.
[00:58] You've got it.
[00:58] It's It's
[01:00] Stood forward.
[01:00] You've got it.
[01:00] It's it's nuts.
[01:00] It is nuts, Gary.
[01:03] There's no nuts.
[01:03] It is nuts, Gary.
[01:03] There's no wonder why you why you run with you've run with Shawn BS in the past.
[01:06] You were doing the same thing as him at the same time as him.
[01:10] That call went on for over two and a half hours, and that will also be part of this video.
[01:13] This fake prophet, his name is Gary Morgan.
[01:15] He is the Australian Shawn BS.
[01:17] Actually was a friend of Shawn Bullses and he ran with Shawn BS for a while.
[01:21] When he was first confronted about his fake prophecy, he actually used the excuse, well, you know, Shawn BS gets confronted like this all the time.
[01:26] You know, these accusations.
[01:28] Hi, I'm Shawn BS and I lead Bulls Ministries in Los Angeles, California.
[01:33] And I want to recommend to you Gary and Sarah Morgan.
[01:35] I've known them for over 13 years.
[01:37] I've been so inspired by both of them as teachers, healers, prophetic vessels, and Gary has been moving in a word of knowledge gift and a word of wisdom gift as long as I've known him.
[01:47] That has stunned and amazed me, let alone the people we've ministered to together.
[01:50] Get involved with the prophetic school.
[01:53] Get involved with Gary and Sarah.
[01:54] They are some of the safest prophetic people I know in the entire world.
[01:57] As many of you know, Shawn Bulls was the fake prophet who was
[02:01] Shawn Bulls was the fake prophet who was the rising star in the prophetic movement.
[02:05] Countless leaders knew he was a fraud and they said nothing, even endorsing him after they knew he had victims of disgusting, horrible, and inappropriate behaviors, including fake prophecy, but not not only that.
[02:18] And he actually hurt a lot of people.
[02:19] And with fake prophecy, so has Gary Morgan.
[02:23] He has hurt a lot of people.
[02:25] And yet, he runs a school of the prophets in Australia.
[02:27] Right now, you can sign up and go to his school.
[02:29] He will teach and train you.
[02:30] You can buy his ecourses and you can learn how to prophesy.
[02:35] This guy will teach you how it this is the exporting of corruption into the larger charismatic church into the larger prophetic movement.
[02:42] It is a big problem.
[02:45] Here's what's crazy.
[02:47] This guy Gary Morgan was caught 10 years ago.
[02:49] He was caught red-handed.
[02:51] I mean smoking guns 10 years ago.
[02:54] And they covered it up.
[02:56] Charismatic leaders covered up for this man.
[02:59] And instead they demonized the two brave Christians.
[03:01] just random people in the church who were willing to say,
[03:02] The church who were willing to say, "Hey, something's wrong with this guy.
[03:04] "Hey, something's wrong with this guy. We have all this evidence."
[03:06] In fact, they just, "Oh my gosh, they have so much evidence.
[03:07] I'm going to show it to you."
[03:08] And instead of holding Gary accountable, they demonized and beat down the two godly Christians who decided to make some noise about this.
[03:12] Nathaniel and Haley, a husband and wife, who just wanted integrity and truth and wanted to share and trust in their leadership to do something about it.
[03:14] Instead, they were they were hurt.
[03:16] They were hurt.
[03:18] Gary has left in his wake a metaphorical and even literal trail of blood.
[03:20] One prophecy that he gave is connected to the death of a Christian who believed in the fake prophet Gary Morgan in particular about his cancer.
[03:21] From 10 years ago till now, Gary Morgan has had the coverup going on where many leaders know about him.
[03:23] Pastor Bill Johnson from Bethl was told about Gary Morgan 10 years ago and he still continued to minister alongside him after that.
[03:26] We knew that Bill Johnson knew about the whole story.
[03:28] Gary Morgan, the whole the whole shebang.
[03:30] And he did a conference with Graeme Cook
[04:02] And he did a conference with Graeme Cook and Gary the very next year.
[04:05] And that was specifically hurtful for uh or disappointing or sad because these are the heroes in the faith.
[04:11] And Graeme and Bill, Gary, just come on up and uh.
[04:15] Yeah, I just hear the the spirit of the Lord say that I'm turning your invitation to innovation that the Lord's going to begin to to cause you a new era and a new time.
[04:26] The supposed apostle Chay on was also told about Gary Morgan and he had publicly endorsed him as having a great prophetic gift.
[04:33] But when he heard this stuff, he said nothing.
[04:35] It was crickets.
[04:36] He just let the people who trust him continue to believe in a fraud.
[04:38] And that is a tragedy.
[04:41] And so we are receiving this morning from someone who is not just rich in what they know, but they're rich in who they have in their hearts and in their lives.
[04:51] And so I want you to open your hearts with me this morning as we welcome Shayan to come in Jesus name.
[04:54] Amen.
[04:57] Bless you Shay.
[05:00] Thank you man.
[05:00] Thank you so much.
[05:02] Thank you.
[05:02] It's an honor for me to be here seated.
[05:04] Honor for me to be here seated.
[05:04] Thank you so much.
[05:07] The degree of corruption that is going on in the movement in the prophetic movement.
[05:10] I'm so sorry to say this guys.
[05:12] I'm genuinely I hate this fact but the degree of corruption that's gone on in the movement is astounding.
[05:16] And I pray that this video doesn't destroy your belief in miracles or in God working or speaking to people.
[05:23] I I I hope not.
[05:25] I because I still believe those things.
[05:27] But I hope that it causes you, the charismatics, those in inside the movement, to rise up in righteousness and demand integrity and truth and accountability, demand accountability, and return to authentic ministry because the fakers are running the show right now.
[05:42] And it's been going on for quite a long time.
[05:44] Now, before we launch fully into the rest of this video, I just want you to know I already confronted Gary on this.
[05:49] I've talked to him over a month ago.
[05:51] I sat down with him and Alan Jones and Peter McHugh.
[05:55] These are the guys on his on his team, so to speak.
[05:57] And on the call were three of the witnesses, the original witnesses that helped understand and find out and prove what Gary had done.
[06:03] And we sat on
[06:05] Prove what Gary had done.
[06:05] And we sat on a 2 and 1 half hour call and know it did a 2 and 1 half hour call and know it did not go well for Gary and his guys.
[06:09] In no way would you ever tell people that the accusations were debunked and proven to have no substance.
[06:13] You would never say that to someone, right?
[06:15] I've never said that.
[06:17] Okay.
[06:20] You wrote that to Victoria in March of 2025.
[06:23] I caught them in multiple lies and deceptions and just all kinds of shenanigans.
[06:27] And you will have the opportunity to see that entire confrontation.
[06:30] That's why this video is so long.
[06:31] But before we get to the confrontation, I want to walk you guys through the story of all that has happened.
[06:36] And this is going to be through an interview that I've did with Nathaniel and Haley.
[06:39] This is my interview with the brave witnesses who paid the price of having integrity in the prophetic movement.
[06:45] They have evidence of fake prophecies, absolute smoking guns, like evidence that Gary invented a fake person and sent fake emails to try to cover up after he got caught.
[06:56] A faux investigation pushed by Peter McHugh supposedly to hold Gary accountable and find out the truth.
[07:03] That in my opinion was a deceitful project.
[07:05] in my opinion was a deceitful project where he was trying to make it as hard.
[07:08] where he was trying to make it as hard as possible to have accountability.
[07:10] as possible to have accountability asking for the witnesses of of Gary's.
[07:13] asking for the witnesses of of Gary's sins to pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for an investigation.
[07:17] thousands of dollars for an investigation when all the evidence and proof was already present.
[07:19] investigation when all the evidence and proof was already present.
[07:20] We'll get into all of the details there and how Peter lied even on our conference call.
[07:24] Peter lied even on our conference call to my face, lied to me and I caught him in those lies.
[07:27] in those lies. All of that will be there.
[07:29] The sad thing is is that in Australia, a lot of leaders know about Gary Morgan and they just haven't said anything.
[07:33] Gary Morgan and they just haven't said anything.
[07:35] And I put out a call months ago saying, "Please, you guys, make some noise about this."
[07:40] noise about this." And I didn't want to make this video. Literally didn't.
[07:41] Literally didn't. I wanted them to just make some noise.
[07:43] I wanted them to just make some noise.
[07:45] I thought if I just post on social media, many of your leaders in Australia know this guy is fake.
[07:48] this guy is fake. I I call on your leaders to to make noise about it to warn the church because fake prophets should be warned about.
[07:54] should be warned about. That's kind of like a biblical thing, right?
[07:56] Jeremiah does this. Fake prophets should be warned about.
[07:59] warned about. The apostles warn about the fake prophets. Jesus warns about fake prophets.
[08:03] fake prophets. It's something. It's a very Christian thing to warn people about these guys, these scoundrels. And
[08:07] about these guys, these scoundrels.
[08:07] And I would say this, he is a scoundrel.
[08:10] I would say this, he is a scoundrel.
[08:10] Gary Morgan is a scoundrel and a liar.
[08:13] Gary Morgan is a scoundrel and a liar.
[08:13] And his team of enablers, in this case,
[08:15] Peter and Allen in particular, are
[08:17] helping him get away with it.
[08:17] So, here's the road map for this video.
[08:19] The first section of the video, the first big section,
[08:20] cuz it's in two big sections, is going to be my interview with the witnesses.
[08:22] That is Nathaniel and Haley who discovered the evidence of Gary's fraudulent ministry and blaspheming against Christ and sinning against the people of God, his manipulations and his deceit and his callous disregard for people.
[08:23] Um, they found that evidence and Pastor Chris Turner, who also was there 10 years ago and decided that he was going to be one of the very few who's willing to put their face out there and their name out there and actually address these things.
[08:25] Other people could be on this call right now.
[08:27] Other people could be in this video right now.
[08:29] They've chosen not to.
[08:31] They've not made themselves available to me.
[08:33] You guys know who you are.
[08:35] I wish you would just do the right thing and be brave.
[08:37] But these people are these three are brave.
[08:40] Now, during the interview I have with these three, you're also going to see
[09:07] these three, you're also going to see visual evidence pop up, an email pop up,
[09:09] visual evidence pop up, an email pop up, a video pop up, or even an excerpt from
[09:12] a video pop up, or even an excerpt from the confrontation call that we did last
[09:14] the confrontation call that we did last month in April.
[09:15] month in April. You're going to see all this stuff pop up.
[09:17] this stuff pop up. I kind of recommend you watch this on video if you're
[09:19] you watch this on video if you're listening on podcast.
[09:21] listening on podcast. It's going to make more sense and you won't miss visual
[09:23] more sense and you won't miss visual evidence if you watch it on video.
[09:25] evidence if you watch it on video. This is all important to establish the truth
[09:26] is all important to establish the truth of things because even though this is
[09:28] of things because even though this is widely known by at least many leaders
[09:31] widely known by at least many leaders inside of the movement, this is
[09:33] inside of the movement, this is something that I know I have to
[09:34] something that I know I have to laboriously present mountains of
[09:36] laboriously present mountains of evidence in order to get you people to
[09:38] evidence in order to get you people to realize because you will do what your
[09:40] realize because you will do what your leaders won't and you will stand up and
[09:41] leaders won't and you will stand up and make noise about a fake prophet, a
[09:44] make noise about a fake prophet, a devious man, a wicked a wicked person
[09:47] devious man, a wicked a wicked person who's being covered up for in the name
[09:49] who's being covered up for in the name of Jesus by other leaders.
[09:51] of Jesus by other leaders. And it's just disgusting.
[09:54] disgusting. But I believe in you guys. I believe in the charismatic church. I ab
[09:55] believe in the charismatic church. I ab I believe in the charismatic church. And
[09:57] I believe in the charismatic church. And I think if you guys just know what's
[09:59] I think if you guys just know what's going on in the dark, you will deal with
[10:01] going on in the dark, you will deal with it.
[10:04] it. So this is me turning the lights on specifically in Australia.
[10:06] specifically in Australia. This is the Australian Shawn BS. This is the
[10:09] Australian Shawn BS. This is the Australian coverup of Gary Morgan that happened 10 years ago and persists hopefully until right now when this video drops.
[10:19] And then the second part of the video is just going to be the uncut full two plus hour confrontation video.
[10:24] In that video, I caught them in several lies.
[10:27] I think it needs to be public record.
[10:29] And that was the purpose of the recording.
[10:30] They agreed for it to be recorded.
[10:31] I announced when we recorded it that it was going to be for accountability and that there would be accountability one way or another.
[10:37] Um, and so this is how that works, guys.
[10:39] Uh, we're going to put that whole video up.
[10:41] Nobody can accuse me of using clips out of context.
[10:44] The entire video will be there.
[10:45] I think it needs to be public.
[10:47] It does get a bit intense.
[10:48] I get a bit intense in that video in ways you guys probably haven't really seen me act.
[10:50] And I stand 100% by the things I said and the way I said them.
[10:53] So, here we go.
[10:57] We're going to get into the interview and the evidence is coming and I pray that this makes a big change.
[11:00] I really do.
[11:02] Australian charismatics, I believe in you.
[11:12] Nathaniel, Haley, and Chris.
[11:14] Thank you guys so much for joining.
[11:16] I want to hear the story of what happened.
[11:19] Uh, let's just uncover the coverup culture stuff because this ties into everything that I've been working on so far, but it's really specific to your guys situation.
[11:28] 10 years ago, you uncovered I mean, you caught red-handed in my opinion.
[11:30] Gary Morgan and uh, Peter McHugh exposed himself as a fixer in that situation and there should be some accountability for that.
[11:37] So, please share your story.
[11:40] Thank you, Mike.
[11:44] Um, I just wanted to say it.
[11:46] I wanted to say at the start of this that uh Haley, Chris, and I didn't really want to be the people to bring you this story.
[11:52] Um it's it it'll be hard for us.
[11:56] We haven't talked about uh a lot of this too many people for a decade.
[12:04] Um and I think we would not be the ones to bring this story to you if the leaders involved had gone public on this.
[12:13] involved had gone public on this.
[12:15] In fact, um Chris and I have gone to multiple leaders uh at multiple times over even the last few weeks practically begging them to take this public and um they've refused.
[12:29] So, uh we didn't want to be the people to bring this to you, but um it it feels like we're the ones willing willing to.
[12:37] Um, I guess the last thing that I wanted to say is some of the information we're kind of going to share uh are about hurtful actions from people that we really love.
[12:49] And that's um that's not easy.
[12:51] We've we've agonized together over how do we tell this in a way that's honorable.
[12:57] And I've come to the conclusion that um to to try and um curate to try and curate the the story in order to you know aim to protect people's reputations is just
[13:14] protect people's reputations is just more cover up.
[13:18] And so we're going to aim more cover up.
[13:21] And so we're going to aim to tell this story uh honestly and straightforward because we believe
[13:23] straightforward because we believe that's the right thing to do.
[13:26] that's the right thing to do.
[13:27] So, I just wanted to start by saying that
[13:28] that >> I'm grateful for that and and and for people to know that we together went and
[13:29] I'm grateful for that and and and for people to know that we together went and confronted Gary and uh Peter McHugh and
[13:32] confronted Gary and uh Peter McHugh and and Allen as well.
[13:35] and Allen as well.
[13:38] We we had the three of them in a in a long back and forth discussion, two and a half hour recorded
[13:40] of them in a in a long back and forth discussion, two and a half hour recorded Zoom call also trying to create
[13:43] Zoom call also trying to create accountability from within.
[13:45] The the purpose of this meeting is because I
[13:47] accountability from within.
[13:48] The the purpose of this meeting is because I tweeted out or put on social media in a
[13:51] tweeted out or put on social media in a few different places um that we that
[13:55] few different places um that we that Gary that you were guilty of uh faking
[13:58] Gary that you were guilty of uh faking prophecy.
[14:01] prophecy. And um I did this because I I had conviction that I'd already seen a
[14:03] I did this because I I had conviction that I'd already seen a significant amount of evidence to
[14:04] significant amount of evidence to demonstrate that this was true.
[14:07] demonstrate that this was true. And um and then I was contacted by Peter who
[14:10] and then I was contacted by Peter who reached out and wanted to connect and
[14:12] reached out and wanted to connect and talk about it and actually arrange a
[14:14] talk about it and actually arrange a meeting um so we could discuss it.
[14:17] And meeting um so we could discuss it.
[14:19] And since then basically we've gone back and forth with Peter Allen and stuff like that.
[14:23] And what I would like us to do since I know everyone on this meeting has already been down this road before, right?
[14:26] I'm the only one who hasn't been down this with you guys.
[14:27] Um, I'll I'll be I prefer total transparency and I don't like doing um artificial kindness to the point where you can't tell what anybody's saying or what's going on, that kind of stuff.
[14:39] So, I just really want to be super transparent is we love the church.
[14:42] We love integrity and truth.
[14:44] There is a major problem of fakery in the charismatic church right now.
[14:46] It's it's it's an insane problem that's going on for for generations and has largely been unaddressed from those in the movement, only people outside who were dismissed as heretics, heretic hunters and heresy hunters and stuff like that.
[15:00] Um, and Gary, the evidence that was mounted against you looks pretty strong and I'm open to hearing some other side of it, but I have seen a lot of stuff myself already, including other stuff.
[15:13] In fact, uh
[15:15] In fact, uh I I think that I've been misled in my.
[15:17] I I think that I've been misled in my email exchanges even already with some of your the guys that I would say are your team, you know, Allan and Peter.
[15:22] So, I'm putting that right out there.
[15:25] You're also welcome to put out there any kind of concerns, allegations against me if you've got them, and I'm all ears.
[15:31] No one's above reproach in above the potential of being reproached in that regard.
[15:34] Um, so the purpose of this meeting in then is to either establish that I need to go and say, "Guys, I'm super sorry.
[15:42] I I I just bismerched this guy's character.
[15:45] I heard his ministry and I I would make that super public with a graveling apology.
[15:49] Um, and if I was convinced it was true, I'd endorse your character and your ministry.
[15:54] Um, on the other hand, if this has been not only the egregious fakery of of the past, but ongoing cover up with allies doing doing this for you and then causing others who to hold you accountable to actually have to apologize.
[16:10] If that's the case, then that escalates things the other direction.
[16:16] escalates things the other direction.
[16:18] Um, and I also have gone public on social media asking for leaders that know in the area to go public and deal with this themselves.
[16:23] I didn't want to make a video about this.
[16:25] I just wanted to instigate people who already know about it to just speak the truth, protect innocence, honestly vindicate you guys is one thing I'm hoping comes from this personally and also uh to stop someone who's who's manipulating people in the name of the Holy Spirit.
[16:39] That's a high blasphemy against God to do such things.
[16:41] So um so yeah, we've done all the other steps first and would have much preferred for those to have worked.
[16:47] Thank you, Mike.
[16:50] Um yeah, it's it's been really powerful even just having you hear these um events a few months back and and just saying that hey I believe this was so healing to us initially.
[17:00] So we'll um we'll just share the story and Chris and Haley feel free to just jump in where it um feels right.
[17:13] I guess I'll just start by was it October or November?
[17:15] November 2015.
[17:19] October or November?
[17:19] November 2015.
[17:23] November 2015.
[17:23] And did you want to that um we were part of Gloria City Church in Brisbane, Australia at that time.
[17:28] And um Nate was working for the church doing my like the job that I loved and honestly my two favorite things in the world.
[17:38] Um especially at the time, evangelism and media and content.
[17:43] So that was my role and was very blessed in my role.
[17:52] Um, and at the time Gary was uh speaking at a big prophetic conference our church was putting on.
[17:59] And uh I I remember I wasn't in his session, but uh the person who was in his session debriefed with me and they said something I'll never forget.
[18:08] They said um I mean he's so accurate.
[18:10] They were marveling about how accurate he was with names and dates.
[18:16] And then as as a joke, they just kind of said, "Oh, I mean, unless he's getting the information from Facebook and moved on."
[18:22] Facebook and moved on.
[18:22] Wild.
[18:22] Wild.
[18:22] And I had never I never heard of that at the time.
[18:24] I had no grid for that.
[18:26] Data mining wasn't a word in my vocabulary.
[18:29] Um I I didn't think too much of it until it came to reviewing the footage from that session, which was one of the parts of my role.
[18:36] And I remember playing it and it seemed so suspicious as soon as I played it.
[18:43] Um, I remember my heartbeat just picking up.
[18:46] I was in a dark editing studio and I remember just uh it sounded Mike like this was information that you would just get off Facebook like it was a to start with a a name uh and then a date and then a picture.
[19:01] And Gary had this book that he was reading out of um supposed you know words that he said he received from God.
[19:08] was giving these words out and I just remember the sinking feeling in my stomach because we we were taught and Chris and Haley can attest to this but we were really taught that you know suspicion is bad and we're also very much taught you know
[19:23] we're also very much taught you know believe the best do not touch the Lord's.
[19:25] believe the best do not touch the Lord's anointed so I'm like this is freaky to me.
[19:29] anointed so I'm like this is freaky to me I'm sitting there and I'm I'm going through one two three words and then he started calling out people who were not in the building and he turned to the camera to give the words and I'm just I felt like I was like sinking into my seat there in this dark editing room.
[19:31] me I'm sitting there and I'm I'm going through one two three words and then he started calling out people who were not in the building and he turned to the camera to give the words and I'm just I felt like I was like sinking into my seat there in this dark editing room.
[19:35] through one two three words and then he started calling out people who were not in the building and he turned to the camera to give the words and I'm just I felt like I was like sinking into my seat there in this dark editing room.
[19:37] started calling out people who were not in the building and he turned to the camera to give the words and I'm just I felt like I was like sinking into my seat there in this dark editing room.
[19:38] in the building and he turned to the camera to give the words and I'm just I felt like I was like sinking into my seat there in this dark editing room.
[19:41] camera to give the words and I'm just I felt like I was like sinking into my seat there in this dark editing room.
[19:43] felt like I was like sinking into my seat there in this dark editing room.
[19:46] seat there in this dark editing room. It was enough to really disturb me.
[19:49] was enough to really disturb me. Um so I did I wanted to debunk it in my own mind.
[19:51] did I wanted to debunk it in my own mind. I was like I'm just going to debunk this and move on with my life.
[19:52] mind. I was like I'm just going to debunk this and move on with my life.
[19:54] debunk this and move on with my life. >> So at the initial time when you first hear it you're a you're scared.
[19:56] >>> So at the initial time when you first hear it you're a you're scared because you feel like it's wrong to even be asking these questions but you can't get it out of your head.
[19:59] hear it you're a you're scared >> because you feel like it's wrong to even be asking these questions but you can't get it out of your head.
[20:01] because you feel like it's wrong to even be asking these questions but you can't get it out of your head.
[20:02] get it out of your head. You know he goes unless you got it all off Facebook and you're like that could that could be true.
[20:04] goes unless you got it all off Facebook and you're like that could that could be true.
[20:05] and you're like that could that could be true. I mean that that could be a way of doing this.
[20:08] true. I mean that that could be a way of doing this.
[20:09] doing this. He calls out and it's it to me it sounds and I've seen the evidence and I I know more than what you've shared so far.
[20:11] He calls out and it's it to me it sounds and I've seen the evidence and I I know more than what you've shared so far.
[20:13] me it sounds and I've seen the evidence and I I know more than what you've shared so far.
[20:14] and I I know more than what you've shared so far. You're telling me again and I want to hear your story again so everybody can hear it.
[20:15] shared so far. You're telling me again and I want to hear your story again so everybody can hear it.
[20:17] and I want to hear your story again so everybody can hear it. But but for people to know this is exactly identical to Shawn BS.
[20:18] everybody can hear it. But but for people to know this is exactly identical to Shawn BS.
[20:22] people to know this is exactly identical to Shawn BS. The the the exact same
[20:24] to Shawn BS. The the the exact same stuff he did. He he's giving information
[20:26] stuff he did. He he's giving information that's available on Facebook which is
[20:29] that's available on Facebook which is now searchable which has now just
[20:30] now searchable which has now just recently been made easily accessible for
[20:32] recently been made easily accessible for people to find your data online. And all
[20:34] people to find your data online. And all of us jumping on Facebook don't realize
[20:37] of us jumping on Facebook don't realize yet how much we're telling people about
[20:39] yet how much we're telling people about ourselves at this point in in time with
[20:41] ourselves at this point in in time with social media. And then he calls out
[20:43] social media. And then he calls out people who aren't even in the room and
[20:45] people who aren't even in the room and and they're this is completely identical
[20:48] and they're this is completely identical to Shawn BS because he knew they were
[20:50] to Shawn BS because he knew they were supposed to be there because of
[20:51] supposed to be there because of Facebook, but people's lives change.
[20:53] Facebook, but people's lives change. They don't show up. They came to an
[20:54] They don't show up. They came to an earlier service or something. So um it's
[20:57] earlier service or something. So um it's looking
[20:58] looking >> that's a point that's an important point
[20:59] >> that's a point that's an important point you made as well because all of the
[21:01] you made as well because all of the people that were prophesied over there
[21:03] people that were prophesied over there was many more in that in that conference
[21:06] was many more in that in that conference but all of the people had clicked
[21:08] but all of the people had clicked attending on the conference
[21:10] attending on the conference >> that's what I was say that's right
[21:12] >> that's what I was say that's right >> yeah the people that were in the room
[21:14] >> yeah the people that were in the room >> and the people that weren't in the room
[21:16] >> and the people that weren't in the room were traced back to having clicked
[21:19] were traced back to having clicked attending
[21:20] attending >> which was the thing that freaked me out
[21:21] >> which was the thing that freaked me out because I I went to the one place I
[21:24] because I I went to the one place I thought you would go there was an event
[21:26] thought you would go there was an event with about I think 300 people on it for
[21:28] with about I think 300 people on it for that conference. And so I started
[21:31] that conference. And so I started following his words through trying to
[21:32] following his words through trying to debunk this in my own mind. I thought
[21:35] debunk this in my own mind. I thought sure some of the details would be on
[21:36] sure some of the details would be on Facebook that's statistically likely but
[21:39] Facebook that's statistically likely but not all of them. And as I went through
[21:42] not all of them. And as I went through those words, each and every one of them
[21:44] those words, each and every one of them were on the event. And not only that,
[21:48] were on the event. And not only that, some people he called out then spoke to
[21:50] some people he called out then spoke to the cameras and those people had
[21:54] the cameras and those people had selected attending on the event but did
[21:56] selected attending on the event but did not show up to the event. And so this
[21:58] not show up to the event. And so this was enough to freak me out. I brought
[21:59] was enough to freak me out. I brought this information to Haley, my my wife.
[22:02] this information to Haley, my my wife. And Chris, I don't know if you
[22:03] And Chris, I don't know if you introduced yourself, but feel free to
[22:05] introduced yourself, but feel free to introduce yourself.
[22:06] introduce yourself. >> Chris, tell us tell us who you are. Why
[22:07] >> Chris, tell us tell us who you are. Why not?
[22:08] not? >> Uh yeah. Uh hi guys. I'm uh Chris and uh
[22:11] >> Uh yeah. Uh hi guys. I'm uh Chris and uh I uh I worked uh with Glory City Church.
[22:16] I uh I worked uh with Glory City Church. I was a youth pastor there at the time
[22:18] I was a youth pastor there at the time and uh yeah, I'm not sure how much to go
[22:21] and uh yeah, I'm not sure how much to go into. I mean, I I first personally I met
[22:23] into. I mean, I I first personally I met Gary uh at uh Pastor Katherine's house
[22:27] Gary uh at uh Pastor Katherine's house in 2014. We had like a little um it was
[22:30] in 2014. We had like a little um it was like an Australian prophetic council
[22:33] like an Australian prophetic council round table and uh Gary at the time to
[22:37] round table and uh Gary at the time to me he he seemed um you know he seemed
[22:40] me he he seemed um you know he seemed like always a likable fellow but a
[22:43] like always a likable fellow but a standard kind of general I'd met many
[22:45] standard kind of general I'd met many prophetic people, prophets uh and had a
[22:49] prophetic people, prophets uh and had a a pretty standard good prophetic uh gift
[22:52] a pretty standard good prophetic uh gift um but nothing that I remarked at until
[22:56] um but nothing that I remarked at until it was one year later and he came out
[22:59] it was one year later and he came out with in my opinion at the time was the
[23:03] with in my opinion at the time was the most powerful word of knowledge gift I'd
[23:05] most powerful word of knowledge gift I'd ever seen inside of 12 months.
[23:07] ever seen inside of 12 months. >> This this is an exact repeat of
[23:09] >> This this is an exact repeat of Shambles. It's the Australian Shambles
[23:11] Shambles. It's the Australian Shambles is what I'm hearing.
[23:12] is what I'm hearing. >> Yeah. Well, I mean I I was amazed and I
[23:16] >> Yeah. Well, I mean I I was amazed and I was asking him because I wanted to
[23:17] was asking him because I wanted to learn. I said, "How did you how do you
[23:19] learn. I said, "How did you how do you how did this happen for you?" You know,
[23:21] how did this happen for you?" You know, and he said, "Uh, well, I spell faith
[23:23] and he said, "Uh, well, I spell faith differently to most people. I spell it R
[23:24] differently to most people. I spell it R I S K." And I was like, "Okay." He's
[23:28] I S K." And I was like, "Okay." He's like, "You just got to
[23:28] like, "You just got to >> okay,
[23:29] >> okay, >> you just got to take a risk. Hey, you
[23:31] >> you just got to take a risk. Hey, you just got to got to step out." And and uh
[23:34] just got to got to step out." And and uh and I really was eager to to learn and
[23:36] and I really was eager to to learn and grow and um and was looking up to that
[23:39] grow and um and was looking up to that gifting, but it was a a stark contrast.
[23:41] gifting, but it was a a stark contrast. I remember uh from one year to the next.
[23:44] I remember uh from one year to the next. So, um but yeah, I'll let you continue.
[23:46] So, um but yeah, I'll let you continue. Um Nathaniel.
[23:49] Um Nathaniel. >> Yeah. Well, I as I mentioned, it it
[23:52] >> Yeah. Well, I as I mentioned, it it utterly freaked me out and I took the
[23:54] utterly freaked me out and I took the information home to Haley. um that night
[23:58] information home to Haley. um that night >> and I think it was pretty early on in
[24:01] >> and I think it was pretty early on in the process like you spoke to me and I
[24:03] the process like you spoke to me and I just was like, "Oh, I don't think I
[24:07] just was like, "Oh, I don't think I don't think that would be happening."
[24:08] don't think that would be happening." You know, I've you know, Gary's
[24:10] You know, I've you know, Gary's prophesied over me in the past and I
[24:12] prophesied over me in the past and I think it's a legitimate um prophetic
[24:15] think it's a legitimate um prophetic gift and yeah, I think I've always loved
[24:17] gift and yeah, I think I've always loved the prophetic personally and um yeah, I
[24:20] the prophetic personally and um yeah, I don't think there's anything to worry
[24:21] don't think there's anything to worry about. That's what I initially said. Uh,
[24:24] about. That's what I initially said. Uh, but it wasn't until you kind of kept
[24:26] but it wasn't until you kind of kept looking into the different people that
[24:29] looking into the different people that were on that event and we looked at it
[24:31] were on that event and we looked at it together that I became more convinced.
[24:34] together that I became more convinced. Um, and
[24:35] Um, and >> you guys did not go into this.
[24:37] >> you guys did not go into this. >> Yeah. You didn't go into this looking to
[24:38] >> Yeah. You didn't go into this looking to find something wrong or to expose
[24:40] find something wrong or to expose somebody. You went into this because of
[24:42] somebody. You went into this because of >> you had this nagging concern and as you
[24:44] >> you had this nagging concern and as you were looking into it, you were trying to
[24:46] were looking into it, you were trying to debunk it
[24:47] debunk it >> for yourselves as much as for him.
[24:49] >> for yourselves as much as for him. >> Trying to move on and trying to to say
[24:52] >> Trying to move on and trying to to say this couldn't be happening. But Mike, at
[24:54] this couldn't be happening. But Mike, at at the point when we all looked at it
[24:56] at the point when we all looked at it together, and I'm sure Chris can speak
[24:58] together, and I'm sure Chris can speak to this as well, but we we realized that
[25:00] to this as well, but we we realized that he gave 15 words that that night, two of
[25:04] he gave 15 words that that night, two of them were quite it was just one thing.
[25:06] them were quite it was just one thing. It was quite vague. It was like rock or
[25:08] It was quite vague. It was like rock or something like that. And not sure if
[25:10] something like that. And not sure if someone stood up for that one, but there
[25:11] someone stood up for that one, but there were 13 that felt measurable.
[25:14] were 13 that felt measurable. Out of those 13 words,
[25:17] Out of those 13 words, >> um 12 of the 13 had clicked attending on
[25:21] >> um 12 of the 13 had clicked attending on the event. Um, and of those 12, five of
[25:25] the event. Um, and of those 12, five of them were not in the building. So, he
[25:28] them were not in the building. So, he delivered prophetic words to the live
[25:30] delivered prophetic words to the live stream. Um,
[25:32] stream. Um, >> and how many people were in the room at
[25:35] >> and how many people were in the room at that event?
[25:36] that event? >> There's about 500 in the room and maybe
[25:38] >> There's about 500 in the room and maybe under 300 on the Facebook event. Um,
[25:41] under 300 on the Facebook event. Um, that's an estimate.
[25:42] that's an estimate. >> So, out of about
[25:45] >> So, out of about I mean, how many people in other words
[25:47] I mean, how many people in other words were physically 500 you said? So, 500
[25:50] were physically 500 you said? So, 500 >> I think. Yeah. Okay. But it's hundreds,
[25:53] >> I think. Yeah. Okay. But it's hundreds, hundreds of people show up and everybody
[25:55] hundreds of people show up and everybody except for one that he calls out.
[25:57] except for one that he calls out. >> And that one was what Haley was just
[26:00] >> And that one was what Haley was just about to say cuz we're like, "Okay,
[26:01] about to say cuz we're like, "Okay, there's one person who wasn't on the
[26:03] there's one person who wasn't on the event." One of
[26:04] event." One of >> I want to hear Haley walk through that,
[26:06] >> I want to hear Haley walk through that, but I want I want for everybody to
[26:07] but I want I want for everybody to really understand the weight of this.
[26:09] really understand the weight of this. >> The guy shows up to the event. He calls
[26:11] >> The guy shows up to the event. He calls out
[26:12] out >> name after name after name of people who
[26:14] >> name after name after name of people who are from the event. their names and
[26:17] are from the event. their names and information is available on Facebook
[26:19] information is available on Facebook from the event and they all except for
[26:21] from the event and they all except for one they all clicked attending and you
[26:23] one they all clicked attending and you guys had this one person who didn't they
[26:26] guys had this one person who didn't they didn't click attending maybe that's the
[26:28] didn't click attending maybe that's the one that proves that he has an authentic
[26:30] one that proves that he has an authentic thing you're still trying to work
[26:31] thing you're still trying to work through it so tell us about that
[26:34] through it so tell us about that >> um so this person who hadn't clicked
[26:36] >> um so this person who hadn't clicked attending um they said that they had met
[26:39] attending um they said that they had met Gary in the hallway before the service
[26:41] Gary in the hallway before the service and he asked for her name um And
[26:46] and he asked for her name um And >> before the service.
[26:47] >> before the service. >> Yeah. Before the service. And her
[26:49] >> Yeah. Before the service. And her details were on Facebook in
[26:51] details were on Facebook in >> every detail. Every It was stunning. It
[26:53] >> every detail. Every It was stunning. It was like he would say, "I see you
[26:55] was like he would say, "I see you playing a guitar." And it was the first
[26:57] playing a guitar." And it was the first picture on their wall. He would say, "I
[26:58] picture on their wall. He would say, "I I see you dancing." And it was like the
[27:00] I see you dancing." And it was like the banner. And it was like over and over
[27:02] banner. And it was like over and over again. Um Chris, you can speak to this.
[27:04] again. Um Chris, you can speak to this. Cuz we were so concerned, we brought it
[27:06] Cuz we were so concerned, we brought it to Chris, who was on staff with us. He
[27:08] to Chris, who was on staff with us. He lived next door um to us at the time.
[27:11] lived next door um to us at the time. And so we brought this to Chris um as
[27:14] And so we brought this to Chris um as well. concerned.
[27:15] well. concerned. >> I came over um I don't even know if I
[27:18] >> I came over um I don't even know if I came Yeah, I came over and you guys were
[27:20] came Yeah, I came over and you guys were like, you know, hey um got something
[27:23] like, you know, hey um got something really strange. You want to take a look
[27:25] really strange. You want to take a look at it? This could be a thing, you know,
[27:29] at it? This could be a thing, you know, tell me what you think. So yeah, we look
[27:31] tell me what you think. So yeah, we look at it and um I think the first one I
[27:34] at it and um I think the first one I remember we look at this girl and it was
[27:37] remember we look at this girl and it was like he kept playing on it was a little
[27:40] like he kept playing on it was a little twist I think on um like he kept saying
[27:43] twist I think on um like he kept saying tap in the in the prophecy for this girl
[27:46] tap in the in the prophecy for this girl and her surname was faucet.
[27:49] and her surname was faucet. Uh but
[27:50] Uh but >> yeah I remember
[27:52] >> yeah I remember >> yeah and it was uh you know it was about
[27:55] >> yeah and it was uh you know it was about her like I see you playing guitar. The
[27:57] her like I see you playing guitar. The cover photo was was her playing guitar
[28:00] cover photo was was her playing guitar and one by one we went through all the
[28:03] and one by one we went through all the different words and again like I was
[28:05] different words and again like I was having the same feelings because I
[28:07] having the same feelings because I initially was like no no this guy is got
[28:09] initially was like no no this guy is got an amazing prophetic gift. Now I'm
[28:12] an amazing prophetic gift. Now I'm questioning it because I'm going what? I
[28:15] questioning it because I'm going what? I don't know what to think. Like this this
[28:17] don't know what to think. Like this this is this is stunning that we can't find
[28:20] is this is stunning that we can't find one example in the in the whole night.
[28:30] All right, guys. Look, this is editor
[28:32] All right, guys. Look, this is editor Mike, okay? I'm currently editing the
[28:33] Mike, okay? I'm currently editing the video, and I thought this was a great
[28:35] video, and I thought this was a great time to cut in and show you seven
[28:37] time to cut in and show you seven examples of Gary Morgan's fake prophetic
[28:39] examples of Gary Morgan's fake prophetic words. I believe them to be from 2016.
[28:42] words. I believe them to be from 2016. So, we're going to walk through them.
[28:43] So, we're going to walk through them. Here's all the video footage that I want
[28:45] Here's all the video footage that I want to show you about these things and I'm
[28:46] to show you about these things and I'm going to put up on screen like social
[28:48] going to put up on screen like social media that's related to this footage.
[28:50] media that's related to this footage. So, it should be strong evidence,
[28:52] So, it should be strong evidence, especially as a cumulative case when you
[28:54] especially as a cumulative case when you add these all together. One by itself
[28:57] add these all together. One by itself could be a coincidence. Absolutely. But
[28:59] could be a coincidence. Absolutely. But every single word is like this. And so,
[29:01] every single word is like this. And so, yeah, this is a smoking gun already. And
[29:04] yeah, this is a smoking gun already. And it's there's going to be way more as we
[29:07] it's there's going to be way more as we keep going. And I'll just throw this out
[29:08] keep going. And I'll just throw this out there since I have a chance to interrupt
[29:10] there since I have a chance to interrupt my own video in the editing process. I
[29:12] my own video in the editing process. I probably spent 25 hours editing so far.
[29:14] probably spent 25 hours editing so far. Um, we're going to be talking about a
[29:16] Um, we're going to be talking about a guy named Larry Sebastian later on.
[29:17] guy named Larry Sebastian later on. Larry Sebastian, another Australian
[29:19] Larry Sebastian, another Australian pastor who is deeply problemat
[29:21] pastor who is deeply problemat problematic. And I hope that including
[29:23] problematic. And I hope that including some of that story inside this video
[29:25] some of that story inside this video will help his victims in that situation.
[29:33] >> Okay. The first thing I saw was I saw a
[29:36] >> Okay. The first thing I saw was I saw a tap. It's like a tap the Lord was
[29:38] tap. It's like a tap the Lord was opening. And this tap had been closed
[29:40] opening. And this tap had been closed for some time. And the Lord was opening
[29:43] for some time. And the Lord was opening this tap. And he's saying, "The tap that
[29:44] this tap. And he's saying, "The tap that I'm opening is opening the very things
[29:48] I'm opening is opening the very things that have been closed to you."
[29:52] that have been closed to you." You'll notice that this is consistent.
[29:54] You'll notice that this is consistent. I'll spoil it for you. Now, he will say
[29:56] I'll spoil it for you. Now, he will say things that are meant, I believe, to
[29:58] things that are meant, I believe, to prompt the audience to respond with
[30:00] prompt the audience to respond with information. So, he he knows stuff about
[30:02] information. So, he he knows stuff about them. He comes up with a way of hinting
[30:03] them. He comes up with a way of hinting at what he knows. They're supposed to
[30:05] at what he knows. They're supposed to figure it out on their own. It's the
[30:06] figure it out on their own. It's the same playbook that Shawn Bulls does.
[30:09] same playbook that Shawn Bulls does. Exact same playbook. And then he acts
[30:11] Exact same playbook. And then he acts surprised like, "Oh, that's your name.
[30:12] surprised like, "Oh, that's your name. Oh, that's your birthday. Oh, that's But
[30:14] Oh, that's your birthday. Oh, that's But Gary's not as good at it as Sean was."
[30:16] Gary's not as good at it as Sean was." Um, and you'll see why as we as we move
[30:19] Um, and you'll see why as we as we move forward. So, he keeps saying the word
[30:20] forward. So, he keeps saying the word tap. That's the thing he wants to use.
[30:22] tap. That's the thing he wants to use. You'll understand why because it
[30:23] You'll understand why because it connects to her last name.
[30:25] connects to her last name. >> And I saw the 16th of February and the
[30:27] >> And I saw the 16th of February and the name Esther. So, let me describe Esther.
[30:30] name Esther. So, let me describe Esther. >> Okay. Esther Faucet is her name. Her
[30:34] >> Okay. Esther Faucet is her name. Her birthday is on the fe on February 16th
[30:36] birthday is on the fe on February 16th and faucet and tap. Okay, so for
[30:39] and faucet and tap. Okay, so for Australians, I'm told this by my
[30:40] Australians, I'm told this by my Australian friends. They say tap. We say
[30:44] Australian friends. They say tap. We say faucet. And they let me know this as as
[30:46] faucet. And they let me know this as as I was watching this video. I was like,
[30:47] I was watching this video. I was like, "Okay, that makes sense." Um, and Gary
[30:49] "Okay, that makes sense." Um, and Gary will say as much later, too. This is
[30:52] will say as much later, too. This is meant to be a play on words. God's
[30:54] meant to be a play on words. God's opening up a tap. That's what they would
[30:56] opening up a tap. That's what they would understand. Americans faucet. and she is
[30:58] understand. Americans faucet. and she is supposed to be the one that connects the
[31:00] supposed to be the one that connects the name tap to her name faucet. She
[31:04] name tap to her name faucet. She doesn't. So, he will really kind of push
[31:05] doesn't. So, he will really kind of push it. And you'll see he spills his cards
[31:08] it. And you'll see he spills his cards or he shows his cards a little bit. He
[31:09] or he shows his cards a little bit. He does this multiple times in these
[31:11] does this multiple times in these videos. I know you may not feel
[31:12] videos. I know you may not feel convinced yet. I've already seen them
[31:14] convinced yet. I've already seen them all. That's why I can speak with
[31:15] all. That's why I can speak with confidence. Let me walk you through the
[31:17] confidence. Let me walk you through the evidence and then maybe you can too.
[31:19] evidence and then maybe you can too. >> Lord, I saw a guitar in her hand
[31:22] >> Lord, I saw a guitar in her hand and song she was writing.
[31:24] and song she was writing. >> So, this is easily available info right
[31:26] >> So, this is easily available info right on her Facebook page. right at the right
[31:27] on her Facebook page. right at the right at the top.
[31:28] at the top. >> Yay.
[31:33] >> I want to just say real quick, anybody
[31:36] >> I want to just say real quick, anybody who uh is in these videos, uh God bless
[31:39] who uh is in these videos, uh God bless you. I'm glad and encouraged you had a
[31:41] you. I'm glad and encouraged you had a zeal to know God and seek God and be
[31:43] zeal to know God and seek God and be closer to God. You are not at fault
[31:46] closer to God. You are not at fault here. Uh Gary Morgan abused and
[31:48] here. Uh Gary Morgan abused and manipulated you based upon the evidence
[31:50] manipulated you based upon the evidence I have seen and and I want to show you
[31:52] I have seen and and I want to show you too. And it and it was broadcast around
[31:55] too. And it and it was broadcast around and it was used to prop him up as a
[31:56] and it was used to prop him up as a prophet. And your zeal and your desire
[31:59] prophet. And your zeal and your desire for the Lord was good, but it's healthy
[32:01] for the Lord was good, but it's healthy for him to be exposed. And these are the
[32:03] for him to be exposed. And these are the stories we have that can expose that. So
[32:07] stories we have that can expose that. So don't be too hard on these people, man.
[32:09] don't be too hard on these people, man. I would be I'd be the same. Well,
[32:11] I would be I'd be the same. Well, younger version of me would have been
[32:12] younger version of me would have been identical in that room getting so
[32:13] identical in that room getting so excited that he said something about
[32:15] excited that he said something about wings. Something about wings. Wing. Oh,
[32:17] wings. Something about wings. Wing. Oh, what's your last name? Winger. Oh, God's
[32:19] what's your last name? Winger. Oh, God's given you wings. I mean, that that would
[32:20] given you wings. I mean, that that would have worked on me too at a younger age.
[32:22] have worked on me too at a younger age. And then I grew in discernment and that
[32:24] And then I grew in discernment and that is what we all need to do of course. Uh
[32:26] is what we all need to do of course. Uh and so no shame in that just uh lessons
[32:29] and so no shame in that just uh lessons learned.
[32:29] learned. >> So let me prophesy over you. I saw a tap
[32:32] >> So let me prophesy over you. I saw a tap that God was opening
[32:34] that God was opening and that he was he was releasing
[32:38] and that he was he was releasing creativity on you. I saw the 16th of of
[32:41] creativity on you. I saw the 16th of of February. What's the 16th of February?
[32:43] February. What's the 16th of February? That's your birthday.
[32:45] That's your birthday. Okay.
[32:48] If God did give you her birthday, that
[32:50] If God did give you her birthday, that would be beautiful. It would be a very
[32:51] would be beautiful. It would be a very special moment for a person. However, if
[32:53] special moment for a person. However, if you're lying about it, you're an evil
[32:55] you're lying about it, you're an evil sickopantic weirdo who is manipulating
[32:58] sickopantic weirdo who is manipulating and abusing people for your own glory
[33:00] and abusing people for your own glory and you don't care about them. You
[33:01] and you don't care about them. You actually despise them based upon your
[33:03] actually despise them based upon your act activities, your actions. Um, notice
[33:05] act activities, your actions. Um, notice how he leans on the word tap. Tap tap.
[33:07] how he leans on the word tap. Tap tap. It looks like he's trying to get her to
[33:09] It looks like he's trying to get her to say it. She won't. So, finally, he just
[33:11] say it. She won't. So, finally, he just asks her, "What's your last name?"
[33:16] >> Tap.
[33:18] >> Tap. I just saw a tap that was opening.
[33:21] I just saw a tap that was opening. the tap that's opening on your life.
[33:25] the tap that's opening on your life. Even as I'm praying, I keep seeing the
[33:27] Even as I'm praying, I keep seeing the tap.
[33:32] Open up the tap, Lord.
[33:35] Open up the tap, Lord. You play.
[33:35] You play. >> I was doing a hand motion of a faucet so
[33:38] >> I was doing a hand motion of a faucet so that she might get it.
[33:40] that she might get it. >> Guitar
[33:42] >> Guitar a little bit. You write songs? Yeah. I
[33:45] a little bit. You write songs? Yeah. I see that tap of creativity.
[33:48] see that tap of creativity. Your name is going to be known, love.
[33:51] Your name is going to be known, love. What's your name? Esther.
[33:58] She said her name and now people are
[34:00] She said her name and now people are laughing cuz they're like, "Oh, yeah.
[34:01] laughing cuz they're like, "Oh, yeah. Obviously, it's the tab. That's the
[34:02] Obviously, it's the tab. That's the connection." These types of cutesy
[34:05] connection." These types of cutesy connections are consistent in Shawn
[34:07] connections are consistent in Shawn Bulls as well as Gary Morgan. Find a
[34:10] Bulls as well as Gary Morgan. Find a name connection. Always connected to
[34:12] name connection. Always connected to their name, the name of their street,
[34:13] their name, the name of their street, the name of something I can find on
[34:15] the name of something I can find on their Facebook page. Okay,
[34:19] their Facebook page. Okay, boss it. That's an American tap.
[34:25] Okay,
[34:26] Okay, open the tap, Lord.
[34:29] open the tap, Lord. >> Esther forc it.
[34:31] >> Esther forc it. >> He's trying to act surprised. I don't
[34:32] >> He's trying to act surprised. I don't believe he's surprised at all. This was
[34:34] believe he's surprised at all. This was all planned out. Could have gone
[34:35] all planned out. Could have gone smoother.
[34:38] >> Come here, buddy. Come. I want
[34:39] >> Come here, buddy. Come. I want Americans. I want the Americans. Come
[34:42] Americans. I want the Americans. Come and pray for her, boss. It's an American
[34:45] and pray for her, boss. It's an American tap. Is that WHAT YOU CALL A TAP in
[34:48] tap. Is that WHAT YOU CALL A TAP in America? Is a faucet.
[34:51] America? Is a faucet. Essa faucet.
[34:55] Wow.
[34:58] Red flag for my charismatic friends.
[35:01] Red flag for my charismatic friends. Sound effects in the microphone that are
[35:03] Sound effects in the microphone that are meant to be be the power of the Holy
[35:06] meant to be be the power of the Holy Spirit.
[35:08] Spirit. Let's listen one more time.
[35:12] Let's listen one more time. Esther faucet.
[35:16] Wow.
[35:18] Wow. Thank you, Lord.
[35:19] Thank you, Lord. >> This is this is psychological
[35:21] >> This is this is psychological instigation of of response.
[35:25] instigation of of response. >> Is there any other taps here? Is there
[35:27] >> Is there any other taps here? Is there any other taps? There's a few more.
[35:29] any other taps? There's a few more. >> Now, he changes his attention and asks
[35:31] >> Now, he changes his attention and asks if there's any other taps here, by which
[35:32] if there's any other taps here, by which he means people related to Esther. And
[35:35] he means people related to Esther. And he already knows of one cuz he's
[35:37] he already knows of one cuz he's probably seen her on Facebook.
[35:39] probably seen her on Facebook. >> Faucets. I love If you're a faucet, just
[35:41] >> Faucets. I love If you're a faucet, just stand.
[35:45] Who's Heather?
[35:47] Who's Heather? She Okay, come here.
[35:51] >> Where you get that?
[35:54] >> Where you get that? >> Oh, it's on her Facebook page.
[35:59] >> Now, here's what's going to be
[36:00] >> Now, here's what's going to be interesting. I want you to watch how he
[36:01] interesting. I want you to watch how he treats the mom, Heather, and how he
[36:03] treats the mom, Heather, and how he treats the dad. The dad, he does not
[36:06] treats the dad. The dad, he does not give his name. He doesn't acknowledge
[36:08] give his name. He doesn't acknowledge his name. He doesn't seem to know his
[36:09] his name. He doesn't seem to know his name. And as far as I can tell, his dad
[36:11] name. And as far as I can tell, his dad has no Facebook account, or at least has
[36:13] has no Facebook account, or at least has doesn't have one. that was findable.
[36:16] doesn't have one. that was findable. >> So your your daughter
[36:19] >> So your your daughter is literally Esther, is it?
[36:22] is literally Esther, is it? >> And of course, Heather and Esther have
[36:24] >> And of course, Heather and Esther have both checked in that they were going to
[36:25] both checked in that they were going to be attending the event.
[36:26] be attending the event. >> Let let the husband can come out as
[36:28] >> Let let the husband can come out as well. I don't I don't want you to feel
[36:29] well. I don't I don't want you to feel left out, my friend. As we release
[36:32] left out, my friend. As we release Esther into her season, Lord, we thank
[36:34] Esther into her season, Lord, we thank you for Heather. Heather's a lovely
[36:35] you for Heather. Heather's a lovely smell, isn't it? Diffuse Heather, Lord.
[36:39] smell, isn't it? Diffuse Heather, Lord. Diffuse Heather. Again, it's use the
[36:42] Diffuse Heather. Again, it's use the name a as having prophetic significance.
[36:44] name a as having prophetic significance. So, Heather has has a nice smell. So,
[36:46] So, Heather has has a nice smell. So, diffuse Heather, Lord. Diffuse, let
[36:49] diffuse Heather, Lord. Diffuse, let people, it's the odor and fragrance of
[36:51] people, it's the odor and fragrance of God's work in her life or something like
[36:53] God's work in her life or something like that. Um, it's often these very surface
[36:56] that. Um, it's often these very surface level like
[36:58] level like um homonyms, you know, having to do with
[37:01] um homonyms, you know, having to do with people's names.
[37:03] people's names. Whoa.
[37:04] Whoa. >> What's the 9th of May? That's your
[37:07] >> What's the 9th of May? That's your birthday cake. Oh,
[37:08] birthday cake. Oh, >> what do you know? It's on her Facebook
[37:09] >> what do you know? It's on her Facebook page.
[37:10] page. Father, right now in Jesus name, Lord, I
[37:13] Father, right now in Jesus name, Lord, I release
[37:14] release Lord of Def.
[37:15] Lord of Def. >> More sound effects. Oh my goodness.
[37:18] >> More sound effects. Oh my goodness. Please consider sound effects a red
[37:20] Please consider sound effects a red flag. Because here's the thing, the
[37:22] flag. Because here's the thing, the power of the spirit in a genuine sense,
[37:25] power of the spirit in a genuine sense, like the real work of the Holy Spirit.
[37:26] like the real work of the Holy Spirit. Does not require sound effects. It's not
[37:28] Does not require sound effects. It's not like when Jesus breathed on the
[37:29] like when Jesus breathed on the disciples and they said, "Receive the
[37:30] disciples and they said, "Receive the spirit." He went
[37:33] spirit." He went um that probably didn't happen, right?
[37:35] um that probably didn't happen, right? uh the mighty rushing wind of the Holy
[37:36] uh the mighty rushing wind of the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter 2 was not a guy
[37:39] Spirit in Acts chapter 2 was not a guy on a microphone going it's not if you
[37:42] on a microphone going it's not if you have the authentic you don't need to
[37:44] have the authentic you don't need to amplify it you don't need sound effects
[37:51] all right we're going to look at the
[37:52] all right we're going to look at the next one now okay this is a weird one
[37:56] next one now okay this is a weird one there's an advert that I can't get away
[37:57] there's an advert that I can't get away from it's it's compare the market amen
[38:01] from it's it's compare the market amen and uh it's the 5th of January compare
[38:04] and uh it's the 5th of January compare the market.
[38:06] the market. I know there's compare the market and
[38:08] I know there's compare the market and the 5th of January. Does that mean
[38:09] the 5th of January. Does that mean anything to anyone?
[38:13] >> So God can use authentic prophecy this
[38:15] >> So God can use authentic prophecy this way. Um but it's kind of like a
[38:17] way. Um but it's kind of like a Pharaoh's magician thing. This is the
[38:19] Pharaoh's magician thing. This is the kind of thing that if you were going to
[38:20] kind of thing that if you were going to fake it, this is how you'd fake it,
[38:22] fake it, this is how you'd fake it, right? Whereas Moses, there's a point at
[38:25] right? Whereas Moses, there's a point at which he's he's doing things that nobody
[38:27] which he's he's doing things that nobody can fake. And what we see consistently
[38:29] can fake. And what we see consistently in this in this whole video is things
[38:31] in this in this whole video is things that can be faked and not difficult to
[38:34] that can be faked and not difficult to do. So so compare the market 5th of
[38:36] do. So so compare the market 5th of January. What could it be? You can
[38:38] January. What could it be? You can probably guess.
[38:43] It's your birthday. 5ifth of January.
[38:46] It's your birthday. 5ifth of January. Compare the market.
[38:48] Compare the market. >> James David Marquart
[38:51] >> James David Marquart Mocket, which you you hardly hear the R
[38:54] Mocket, which you you hardly hear the R if you have an Australian accent, right?
[38:55] if you have an Australian accent, right? or a Welsh accent or whatever. Uh Gary's
[38:58] or a Welsh accent or whatever. Uh Gary's not from Australia, but you don't really
[39:00] not from Australia, but you don't really hear the R that well. It does sound like
[39:02] hear the R that well. It does sound like market
[39:05] market and 5th of January. That's his birthday.
[39:07] and 5th of January. That's his birthday. >> His surname is market. Okay. Compare the
[39:10] >> His surname is market. Okay. Compare the market.
[39:13] market. Whoa.
[39:15] Whoa. Just stay over there, buddy. So, the 5th
[39:17] Just stay over there, buddy. So, the 5th of January is your birthday. Okay.
[39:21] of January is your birthday. Okay. >> Okay. I'll spill the beans on this, too.
[39:24] >> Okay. I'll spill the beans on this, too. the um the these statements of whoa um
[39:28] the um the these statements of whoa um while not inherently wrong are also a
[39:31] while not inherently wrong are also a tool that can be used like pharaoh's
[39:33] tool that can be used like pharaoh's magicians right like can be used to
[39:35] magicians right like can be used to fabricate things um saying like yes more
[39:37] fabricate things um saying like yes more more it sends a signal that something's
[39:39] more it sends a signal that something's already happening and people respond in
[39:41] already happening and people respond in faith to that which can be good but can
[39:43] faith to that which can be good but can also be bad and we should just be aware
[39:45] also be bad and we should just be aware that it if if if you do a lot of that
[39:48] that it if if if you do a lot of that maybe it's because you're making up for
[39:49] maybe it's because you're making up for the lack of something legit.
[39:56] Okay, we're going to look at the next
[39:57] Okay, we're going to look at the next one. The previous guy, James Marquette
[39:59] one. The previous guy, James Marquette Marker, is on the ground shaking and he
[40:01] Marker, is on the ground shaking and he goes to prophesy to Alicia Bennett.
[40:05] goes to prophesy to Alicia Bennett. >> I just heard the word oil of gladness
[40:08] >> I just heard the word oil of gladness and I saw now this could be the I saw
[40:12] and I saw now this could be the I saw 111
[40:15] 111 >> oil of gladness. Okay. Well, she works
[40:17] >> oil of gladness. Okay. Well, she works at Young Living Essential Oils. Um, and
[40:21] at Young Living Essential Oils. Um, and November the 1st, 111, that's her
[40:24] November the 1st, 111, that's her birthday. Okay, this is right on her
[40:26] birthday. Okay, this is right on her Facebook page.
[40:27] Facebook page. >> And I add the name Alicia.
[40:31] >> And I add the name Alicia. Does that mean anything to anyone?
[40:33] Does that mean anything to anyone? Alicia,
[40:35] Alicia, I saw oil of gladness.
[40:40] This is being recorded.
[40:42] This is being recorded. So, if the person's not in the room, as
[40:44] So, if the person's not in the room, as was said in our interview, my interview
[40:47] was said in our interview, my interview with Nathaniel and Haley and Chris, if
[40:49] with Nathaniel and Haley and Chris, if the person's not in the room, he can
[40:50] the person's not in the room, he can turn to the camera and prophesy to them.
[40:52] turn to the camera and prophesy to them. But yet, it just so happens that this
[40:54] But yet, it just so happens that this person we prophesy to checked in that
[40:56] person we prophesy to checked in that they would be at the event. Their
[40:57] they would be at the event. Their information is right on Facebook and
[40:59] information is right on Facebook and they just didn't actually show up or
[41:00] they just didn't actually show up or they had left early or come came late.
[41:03] they had left early or come came late. The
[41:03] The >> Lord shows these things. So, I'm going
[41:05] >> Lord shows these things. So, I'm going to just prophesy. I'll call you out. I
[41:07] to just prophesy. I'll call you out. I feel like your birthday is like the 1st
[41:09] feel like your birthday is like the 1st of November.
[41:12] of November. That to me is a red flag. Maybe you're
[41:13] That to me is a red flag. Maybe you're like, "What are you talking about,
[41:14] like, "What are you talking about, Mike?" Earlier he said, "The Lord showed
[41:16] Mike?" Earlier he said, "The Lord showed me one."
[41:19] me one." But now that she's not in the room, and
[41:21] But now that she's not in the room, and she cannot, here's my theory. She cannot
[41:23] she cannot, here's my theory. She cannot come forward and tell him what 111 means
[41:25] come forward and tell him what 111 means cuz she's not there, he's just going to
[41:27] cuz she's not there, he's just going to go ahead and skip to the part where he
[41:28] go ahead and skip to the part where he does the reveal. What he knew all along
[41:30] does the reveal. What he knew all along is that it was her birthday. That 111
[41:33] is that it was her birthday. That 111 was in fact her birthday.
[41:35] was in fact her birthday. >> I feel like your birthday is like the
[41:37] >> I feel like your birthday is like the 1st of November.
[41:39] 1st of November. that camera on. I feel like the Lord has
[41:42] that camera on. I feel like the Lord has given you healing and the Lord showed me
[41:44] given you healing and the Lord showed me a hands of healing and I feel like
[41:46] a hands of healing and I feel like literally there's God's using you in the
[41:48] literally there's God's using you in the area of of remedial or in using you in
[41:51] area of of remedial or in using you in the area of of literally like what we're
[41:53] the area of of literally like what we're diffusing right now here. And
[41:55] diffusing right now here. And >> they're diffusing like essential oils on
[41:57] >> they're diffusing like essential oils on stage. There's a diffuser behind him.
[41:59] stage. There's a diffuser behind him. You'll see in other clips. And so, yeah,
[42:01] You'll see in other clips. And so, yeah, he's he says oil of gladness. Well, if
[42:04] he's he says oil of gladness. Well, if she was in the room, she could have told
[42:05] she was in the room, she could have told him like, "Oh, I I sell essential oils."
[42:08] him like, "Oh, I I sell essential oils." He just goes ahead and jumps right to
[42:10] He just goes ahead and jumps right to the conclusion. He gave the bait 111 and
[42:12] the conclusion. He gave the bait 111 and oil of gladness. She was intended, I
[42:14] oil of gladness. She was intended, I believe, and I think it's pretty
[42:15] believe, and I think it's pretty obvious, intended to provide the
[42:17] obvious, intended to provide the information of what that meant. She
[42:19] information of what that meant. She wasn't around now. He gives it. It's
[42:20] wasn't around now. He gives it. It's your birthday. 111, not 111, right? 111
[42:24] your birthday. 111, not 111, right? 111 and oil of gladness. It def but he
[42:25] and oil of gladness. It def but he doesn't want to say oils, essential
[42:27] doesn't want to say oils, essential oils. He goes, we're diffusing here.
[42:29] oils. He goes, we're diffusing here. It's like he's trying to dance around
[42:30] It's like he's trying to dance around it. That's how it appears.
[42:32] it. That's how it appears. >> I feel like the Lord's going to use you
[42:33] >> I feel like the Lord's going to use you in this next season. And this is a
[42:35] in this next season. And this is a prophetic word to you that you've
[42:36] prophetic word to you that you've stepped out in this as a sort of a
[42:38] stepped out in this as a sort of a business and you've abandoned what you
[42:40] business and you've abandoned what you were good at and you've literally
[42:42] were good at and you've literally stepped into what you love. And I feel
[42:44] stepped into what you love. And I feel like the Lord wants you to know that
[42:45] like the Lord wants you to know that what you've stepped out in is a shard.
[42:47] what you've stepped out in is a shard. What you've stepped out in is is
[42:49] What you've stepped out in is is something that has been orchestrated by
[42:51] something that has been orchestrated by the father. I want to tell you how
[42:53] the father. I want to tell you how dangerous this is. This is again where
[42:55] dangerous this is. This is again where even though it's positive prophecy, even
[42:57] even though it's positive prophecy, even though it's encouraging, he's giving her
[42:59] though it's encouraging, he's giving her life and business and financial advice.
[43:01] life and business and financial advice. And the way he's saying it, if it was if
[43:03] And the way he's saying it, if it was if you were her and you believed this, if
[43:04] you were her and you believed this, if it was me and I believed this, I would
[43:07] it was me and I believed this, I would not quit that essential oils business.
[43:09] not quit that essential oils business. If that's what I'm reading, right, and
[43:10] If that's what I'm reading, right, and that's what she's doing, I wouldn't quit
[43:12] that's what she's doing, I wouldn't quit it. I wouldn't stop it. Nothing would be
[43:13] it. I wouldn't stop it. Nothing would be able to make me stop it. I would sell
[43:15] able to make me stop it. I would sell things. I would suffer and know this is
[43:17] things. I would suffer and know this is just the grind before we take off
[43:18] just the grind before we take off because God has, in his own words, Gary
[43:21] because God has, in his own words, Gary Morgan's words, God has assured it.
[43:24] Morgan's words, God has assured it. God's called her to this. This is the
[43:28] God's called her to this. This is the reckless endangerment that he causes
[43:31] reckless endangerment that he causes because of his fake prophecies.
[43:34] because of his fake prophecies. >> And it's not a season for you to shrink
[43:36] >> And it's not a season for you to shrink back, but I feel like the Lord is saying
[43:38] back, but I feel like the Lord is saying that it's a time for you to press
[43:39] that it's a time for you to press forward in him. And I specifically saw
[43:42] forward in him. And I specifically saw literally oil of gladness. And there's
[43:45] literally oil of gladness. And there's been a a there's been a grief in your
[43:48] been a a there's been a grief in your family. and I'm going to say the last 18
[43:50] family. and I'm going to say the last 18 months,
[43:52] months, >> which probably means that Gary went on
[43:54] >> which probably means that Gary went on her Facebook page and saw probably a
[43:58] her Facebook page and saw probably a death in the family within the past 18
[43:59] death in the family within the past 18 months because nothing's off limits for
[44:01] months because nothing's off limits for the fake prophet. In fact, the more
[44:04] the fake prophet. In fact, the more important it is, the harder, the closer
[44:05] important it is, the harder, the closer to home it hits, the more it hurts, the
[44:07] to home it hits, the more it hurts, the better it makes them look. That's how I
[44:09] better it makes them look. That's how I see this. And you'll see more of that as
[44:10] see this. And you'll see more of that as we continue. And the Lord wants you to
[44:12] we continue. And the Lord wants you to know that that gladness has come upon
[44:14] know that that gladness has come upon you because that grief tried to take you
[44:16] you because that grief tried to take you out. But the Lord wants to declare over
[44:18] out. But the Lord wants to declare over you right now that he is releasing the
[44:20] you right now that he is releasing the oil of gladness in Jesus name. In Jesus
[44:24] oil of gladness in Jesus name. In Jesus name.
[44:30] >> Again I want to present to you guys that
[44:31] >> Again I want to present to you guys that this is a cumulative case. Please
[44:33] this is a cumulative case. Please consider all the all the factors all the
[44:35] consider all the all the factors all the evidence because we have evidence that
[44:36] evidence because we have evidence that goes far beyond even these videos I'm
[44:37] goes far beyond even these videos I'm going to show you. I think these videos
[44:39] going to show you. I think these videos in themselves are enough knowing that it
[44:42] in themselves are enough knowing that it was knowing all the details that we've
[44:43] was knowing all the details that we've shared about it that this alone is
[44:45] shared about it that this alone is enough. But we have a lot more to
[44:47] enough. But we have a lot more to present.
[44:48] present. >> Okay, this is a weird This is You're
[44:50] >> Okay, this is a weird This is You're going to have to
[44:52] going to have to This is weird. I saw a ball. I saw a
[44:56] This is weird. I saw a ball. I saw a ball of money.
[44:59] ball of money. >> He is not good at this. What we're about
[45:01] >> He is not good at this. What we're about to show you, he is not good at this.
[45:03] to show you, he is not good at this. What did he see? Keep in mind, a ball of
[45:06] What did he see? Keep in mind, a ball of money. He was very clear. A ball of
[45:09] money. He was very clear. A ball of money. A ball of money. Remember this
[45:11] money. A ball of money. Remember this because it he he shows his cards again.
[45:16] because it he he shows his cards again. I saw a ball of money and the Lord says,
[45:18] I saw a ball of money and the Lord says, "Let me describe what I saw."
[45:20] "Let me describe what I saw." >> Okay, this is going to be connected to a
[45:21] >> Okay, this is going to be connected to a guy who lives in Balamy or Bali Balam
[45:24] guy who lives in Balamy or Bali Balam Bali money. I think it's just they
[45:26] Bali money. I think it's just they whatever they call it. You'll hear um
[45:28] whatever they call it. You'll hear um but this is a guy named Daryl Crawford
[45:30] but this is a guy named Daryl Crawford Marshall and that's just where he's
[45:32] Marshall and that's just where he's from. This is where he's from. Not where
[45:34] from. This is where he's from. Not where not even where he lives, but where he's
[45:35] not even where he lives, but where he's from originally in the UK.
[45:37] from originally in the UK. >> I saw a ball of money
[45:40] >> I saw a ball of money and I saw the 28th of January.
[45:42] and I saw the 28th of January. >> That's his anniversary.
[45:45] >> That's his anniversary. local church 28th of January. Who's
[45:47] local church 28th of January. Who's there?
[45:50] Let me I saw B A L L Y M O N E Y. Ball
[45:54] Let me I saw B A L L Y M O N E Y. Ball of money. He wait what? You wait what?
[45:58] of money. He wait what? You wait what? He says he saw a ball of money. And then
[46:02] He says he saw a ball of money. And then when nobody responded, he waited. He
[46:04] when nobody responded, he waited. He even gave the date and there wasn't a
[46:06] even gave the date and there wasn't a reaction yet. And so he just spells it
[46:08] reaction yet. And so he just spells it out because guess what? He didn't see a
[46:09] out because guess what? He didn't see a ball of money. He wrote down B A L L Y M
[46:13] ball of money. He wrote down B A L L Y M O N E Y from Facebook when he stalked
[46:18] O N E Y from Facebook when he stalked this guy because the guy checked I'm
[46:19] this guy because the guy checked I'm going to this event. Let's look at this.
[46:21] going to this event. Let's look at this. It's Balamoney or Bali money, whatever
[46:24] It's Balamoney or Bali money, whatever it it's. It's not ball of money. So he
[46:28] it it's. It's not ball of money. So he said he had a vision of a physical
[46:30] said he had a vision of a physical object. What he really had was B A L L Y
[46:33] object. What he really had was B A L L Y M O N E Y. And he tried to say it in a
[46:36] M O N E Y. And he tried to say it in a way that the guy would notice and then
[46:38] way that the guy would notice and then say, "Yeah, that's me." And it didn't
[46:39] say, "Yeah, that's me." And it didn't work. So, he spilled the beans again. He
[46:41] work. So, he spilled the beans again. He keeps spilling the beans or showing his
[46:43] keeps spilling the beans or showing his cards. I like my analogies. Now, let's
[46:47] cards. I like my analogies. Now, let's just keep watching cuz my goodness, this
[46:49] just keep watching cuz my goodness, this is how did he get away with it for so
[46:51] is how did he get away with it for so long? Now, this guy's going to walk up
[46:53] long? Now, this guy's going to walk up and Gary actually shows him his notepad,
[46:55] and Gary actually shows him his notepad, which is obviously doesn't say ball of
[46:56] which is obviously doesn't say ball of money. It just has written the town the
[46:58] money. It just has written the town the guy's from originally right there in the
[47:00] guy's from originally right there in the notepad. And Gary, it looks like he's
[47:03] notepad. And Gary, it looks like he's play acting as though he's discovering
[47:05] play acting as though he's discovering that it's not those letters don't spell
[47:07] that it's not those letters don't spell ball of money at the moment. It's really
[47:09] ball of money at the moment. It's really weird, but here it is.
[47:16] >> Balamoney. Oh, B. Okay. Balamoney
[47:20] >> Balamoney. Oh, B. Okay. Balamoney 28.
[47:21] 28. >> That's your anniversary. Okay.
[47:26] You're taking it.
[47:27] You're taking it. >> It's just wild. I mean, how did he not
[47:28] >> It's just wild. I mean, how did he not get caught before? I mean, in a sense,
[47:31] get caught before? I mean, in a sense, what you have is people that are
[47:32] what you have is people that are desperate for God to touch them, and
[47:34] desperate for God to touch them, and they're in an environment, sadly, that
[47:37] they're in an environment, sadly, that has made things like this feel
[47:40] has made things like this feel unspiritual, like testing prophecies,
[47:42] unspiritual, like testing prophecies, which is what scripture commands us to
[47:43] which is what scripture commands us to do. The Bible says, "Test all things,
[47:46] do. The Bible says, "Test all things, hold fast to that which is good. Let two
[47:48] hold fast to that which is good. Let two or three prophets speak, let the others
[47:49] or three prophets speak, let the others judge." That we have to actually test
[47:52] judge." That we have to actually test this stuff. And this is a completely
[47:53] this stuff. And this is a completely untested environment which allows frauds
[47:56] untested environment which allows frauds like Gary Morgan the fraud
[47:59] like Gary Morgan the fraud to be the rising star him into the glo
[48:03] to be the rising star him into the glo right now in Jesus name. In Jesus name.
[48:07] right now in Jesus name. In Jesus name. Ball of money. Yeah. AND GIVE HIM A BALL
[48:09] Ball of money. Yeah. AND GIVE HIM A BALL OF money Lord. Give him a ball of money.
[48:12] OF money Lord. Give him a ball of money. Woo.
[48:14] Woo. >> Woo.
[48:17] >> Woo. >> This is Montipython's allnew Life of
[48:20] >> This is Montipython's allnew Life of Brian. I saw I the Lord showed me the
[48:24] Brian. I saw I the Lord showed me the life of Brian.
[48:28] >> This will be about Brian Modra.
[48:30] >> This will be about Brian Modra. >> The life of Brian and I saw the 8th of
[48:32] >> The life of Brian and I saw the 8th of October.
[48:35] October. >> Your name's Brian and your birthday is
[48:37] >> Your name's Brian and your birthday is 8th of October. Okay.
[48:41] >> Wow.
[48:44] >> Wow. >> Life of Brian. Father, thank you for the
[48:47] >> Life of Brian. Father, thank you for the life. Life of Brian is a uh irreverent
[48:50] life. Life of Brian is a uh irreverent Monty Python film mocking Jesus.
[48:54] Monty Python film mocking Jesus. That's what Life of Brian is.
[48:56] That's what Life of Brian is. >> Life of Brian and his birthday on the
[48:58] >> Life of Brian and his birthday on the 8th of October. Lord, thank you.
[49:01] 8th of October. Lord, thank you. >> So on Facebook there's a picture of him
[49:03] >> So on Facebook there's a picture of him apparently working on a computer. Uh
[49:05] apparently working on a computer. Uh there seems there may have been other
[49:06] there seems there may have been other information there about uh him buying a
[49:08] information there about uh him buying a computer and he talks about this. Gary
[49:10] computer and he talks about this. Gary Morgan does. I've clipped some pieces
[49:11] Morgan does. I've clipped some pieces out that I think are the most relevant
[49:12] out that I think are the most relevant ones.
[49:15] ones. >> So do you do stuff with software? Yes.
[49:18] >> So do you do stuff with software? Yes. >> So, you're software developer for Linux.
[49:19] >> So, you're software developer for Linux. Okay.
[49:20] Okay. >> And right there on the screen in front
[49:23] >> And right there on the screen in front of you, for those who are listening on
[49:24] of you, for those who are listening on podcast, I do recommend you watch this
[49:26] podcast, I do recommend you watch this on video. Um, there it is. Senior
[49:28] on video. Um, there it is. Senior software engineer right there.
[49:31] software engineer right there. >> Lord, thank you right now for the life
[49:33] >> Lord, thank you right now for the life of Brian
[49:37] and thank you that he's come into the
[49:38] and thank you that he's come into the light, Lord.
[49:39] light, Lord. >> Okay, this is obviously very personal to
[49:41] >> Okay, this is obviously very personal to them. Uh, Brian has had a real
[49:43] them. Uh, Brian has had a real turnaround in his life. As it says on
[49:45] turnaround in his life. As it says on Facebook, this guy's gold. He's turned
[49:46] Facebook, this guy's gold. He's turned his life around uh for God and it's got
[49:50] his life around uh for God and it's got great things to say about Brian. God
[49:52] great things to say about Brian. God bless you, Brian. I pray the Lord
[49:53] bless you, Brian. I pray the Lord blesses you. Um but sad that Gary Morgan
[49:57] blesses you. Um but sad that Gary Morgan would uh would would use you like this.
[50:06] I think that would have to be my
[50:07] I think that would have to be my ringtone from now on.
[50:14] I saw a Mini Cooper
[50:18] I saw a Mini Cooper and the Lord says it's time for New
[50:20] and the Lord says it's time for New Creation.
[50:22] Creation. >> So, you have a woman named Ellie Cooper
[50:24] >> So, you have a woman named Ellie Cooper and New Creation Studios is her the name
[50:28] and New Creation Studios is her the name of her thing.
[50:29] of her thing. >> Who's that?
[50:30] >> Who's that? >> This is the banner of her Facebook page.
[50:35] I saw a Mini Kooper.
[50:43] I want you to realize something. The
[50:44] I want you to realize something. The Lord just I need to come off the mic in
[50:46] Lord just I need to come off the mic in two sec. When this lady comes, I need to
[50:48] two sec. When this lady comes, I need to come off the mic. Is your surname
[50:50] come off the mic. Is your surname Cooper?
[50:56] Did you catch that, guys? What he did
[50:58] Did you catch that, guys? What he did there? He said, "I saw a Mini Cooper."
[51:02] there? He said, "I saw a Mini Cooper." Somebody in the audience says, "I drive
[51:04] Somebody in the audience says, "I drive a
[51:06] a Mini Cooper." He responds to them by
[51:08] Mini Cooper." He responds to them by saying, and it's in the larger clip if
[51:11] saying, and it's in the larger clip if if I didn't include it here. And he
[51:12] if I didn't include it here. And he responds by saying, "Is your surname
[51:16] responds by saying, "Is your surname Cooper?" Meaning that when he said, "I
[51:17] Cooper?" Meaning that when he said, "I saw a Mini Cooper," he already knew what
[51:19] saw a Mini Cooper," he already knew what her surname was, her last name, that it
[51:21] her surname was, her last name, that it was Cooper. And that's what he was
[51:22] was Cooper. And that's what he was really going for was Cooper, not someone
[51:25] really going for was Cooper, not someone who drives a Mini Cooper. So, he knows
[51:27] who drives a Mini Cooper. So, he knows this.
[51:28] this. >> Oh, she drives a Mini Cooper. Okay.
[51:31] >> Oh, she drives a Mini Cooper. Okay. I feel like the name, there's something
[51:32] I feel like the name, there's something about name.
[51:34] about name. >> He also said I'm going to have to come
[51:35] >> He also said I'm going to have to come off the mic if they come up, which is
[51:37] off the mic if they come up, which is interesting.
[51:38] interesting. >> Cooper, put your hand up. Just wave it
[51:40] >> Cooper, put your hand up. Just wave it up. Don't be shy. It's okay.
[51:44] up. Don't be shy. It's okay. Is your surname Cooper? Just come
[51:46] Is your surname Cooper? Just come forward.
[51:48] forward. >> Okay. So, then he finds the lady and
[51:50] >> Okay. So, then he finds the lady and they pro he prophesies over them. Um,
[51:53] they pro he prophesies over them. Um, what I wanted to show there, especially
[51:54] what I wanted to show there, especially with that one, is again, he knows that
[51:56] with that one, is again, he knows that Mini Cooper is a surname because when a
[51:58] Mini Cooper is a surname because when a woman comes up going, I have a Mini.
[52:00] woman comes up going, I have a Mini. He's like, "No, no, no, no, it's not
[52:01] He's like, "No, no, no, no, it's not you." He knows it's not her. In fact, he
[52:03] you." He knows it's not her. In fact, he knew he knew instantly when he saw her
[52:06] knew he knew instantly when he saw her face, it seemed. Now, everything I say
[52:07] face, it seemed. Now, everything I say here is my speculation based upon obser
[52:09] here is my speculation based upon obser observance and rational like inference
[52:12] observance and rational like inference to the best explanation, right? So, when
[52:14] to the best explanation, right? So, when he sees her face, it seems he knows
[52:17] he sees her face, it seems he knows she's the wrong one and says, "Is your
[52:18] she's the wrong one and says, "Is your surname Cooper?" Cuz he already knows
[52:20] surname Cooper?" Cuz he already knows it's not. That's what it looks like. And
[52:22] it's not. That's what it looks like. And uh and then she goes, "Well, I drive a
[52:23] uh and then she goes, "Well, I drive a Mini Cooper." Well, yeah, that's not
[52:25] Mini Cooper." Well, yeah, that's not what he was looking for. That's the
[52:27] what he was looking for. That's the thing to point out here is that the
[52:29] thing to point out here is that the details matter. You catch lies when you
[52:32] details matter. You catch lies when you look at details.
[52:40] I got the name Sarah and literally
[52:45] I saw Sarah and and I saw the 2nd of
[52:49] I saw Sarah and and I saw the 2nd of February. This is Sarah. Her last name
[52:52] February. This is Sarah. Her last name is King. Her birthday is February 2nd.
[52:54] is King. Her birthday is February 2nd. All this is available on her Facebook
[52:57] All this is available on her Facebook page. And here, now, this is where some
[53:00] page. And here, now, this is where some of you may disagree with me. Um, but I'm
[53:02] of you may disagree with me. Um, but I'm going to say uh I I hope you will
[53:05] going to say uh I I hope you will seriously consider the likelihood given
[53:08] seriously consider the likelihood given all the evidence that the tears and the
[53:11] all the evidence that the tears and the red face that you're about to see from
[53:13] red face that you're about to see from Gary Morgan is
[53:15] Gary Morgan is depraved manipulation.
[53:19] depraved manipulation. and daughter of the king. And I saw this
[53:22] and daughter of the king. And I saw this this girl dancing dancing
[53:26] this girl dancing dancing dancing with the prince of of glory,
[53:29] dancing with the prince of of glory, dancing with the king of kings. If
[53:30] dancing with the king of kings. If that's you, I want you to come.
[53:39] Now, this will be interesting. It's
[53:40] Now, this will be interesting. It's actually going to be his wife, Gary's
[53:41] actually going to be his wife, Gary's wife, who finds this girl. That's her
[53:44] wife, who finds this girl. That's her running. She grabs
[53:45] running. She grabs >> Lord, show me daughter of the king.
[53:48] >> Lord, show me daughter of the king. She grabs her. She's She's in there with
[53:49] She grabs her. She's She's in there with kids or something.
[53:50] kids or something. >> Her surname's King.
[53:52] >> Her surname's King. >> And she's like, "Yeah, come on. Come on.
[53:53] >> And she's like, "Yeah, come on. Come on. Quick."
[53:55] Quick." >> Oh, she's a babysitter. Come.
[53:57] >> Oh, she's a babysitter. Come. >> It's Sarah Morgan in the red.
[54:01] >> It's Sarah Morgan in the red. And now he starts sobbing. As soon as he
[54:03] And now he starts sobbing. As soon as he sees her, he just starts crying.
[54:09] Can I say this? People who have
[54:10] Can I say this? People who have disabilities don't need you to sob when
[54:12] disabilities don't need you to sob when you see them. people like it's just
[54:16] you see them. people like it's just pretty much normal life for them. You
[54:17] pretty much normal life for them. You can just treat them like a normal person
[54:19] can just treat them like a normal person and not like a disabled person, right?
[54:21] and not like a disabled person, right? Um but uh but anyways, this these tears
[54:25] Um but uh but anyways, this these tears I I think that this moment was planned
[54:27] I I think that this moment was planned out. I think it was plotted out. We saw
[54:29] out. I think it was plotted out. We saw this with Shawn BS as well where he
[54:31] this with Shawn BS as well where he actually cried on stage with people even
[54:33] actually cried on stage with people even though people who know him told me he
[54:34] though people who know him told me he doesn't really cry and yet he does does
[54:37] doesn't really cry and yet he does does on stage and here Gary Morgan does. And
[54:40] on stage and here Gary Morgan does. And I think that this is deeply
[54:42] I think that this is deeply manipulative. Imagine
[54:55] hugging and crying with your victim.
[55:02] Why are you crying, weirdo?
[55:04] Why are you crying, weirdo? Like, why is why is he Let's What was be
[55:07] Like, why is why is he Let's What was be the reason? He's so overwhelmed with
[55:09] the reason? He's so overwhelmed with God's love for her and God care his care
[55:12] God's love for her and God care his care for her and obviously her horrible life
[55:15] for her and obviously her horrible life situation because she she's wants to
[55:16] situation because she she's wants to dance but she can't because her legs.
[55:18] dance but she can't because her legs. You can say all of that, but I think
[55:21] You can say all of that, but I think that that's not true. I think that this
[55:23] that that's not true. I think that this is just a sickness that is residing in
[55:26] is just a sickness that is residing in the heart of a person who could get up
[55:28] the heart of a person who could get up and blaspheme the name of Christ, speak
[55:30] and blaspheme the name of Christ, speak in God's name, and make stuff up to prop
[55:33] in God's name, and make stuff up to prop himself up as if he's a prophet standing
[55:35] himself up as if he's a prophet standing up in front of the church just just
[55:39] up in front of the church just just existing by the grace of God that he
[55:41] existing by the grace of God that he hasn't struck it struck him down yet.
[55:43] hasn't struck it struck him down yet. So, this moment is either a deeply
[55:47] So, this moment is either a deeply compassionate man or a sick and horribly
[55:51] compassionate man or a sick and horribly depraved man. If he's a true prophet,
[55:53] depraved man. If he's a true prophet, I'm in error here and I should repent
[55:55] I'm in error here and I should repent publicly. Absolutely. If he's not, which
[55:58] publicly. Absolutely. If he's not, which he is, definitely the evidence says he
[56:01] he is, definitely the evidence says he is not, then this is sick. This is
[56:04] is not, then this is sick. This is disgusting. This is evil. This is
[56:06] disgusting. This is evil. This is wicked.
[56:18] >> It's the 2nd of February. That's your
[56:20] >> It's the 2nd of February. That's your birthday. I'm surprised.
[56:24] >> I just saw Dora of the King.
[56:28] >> I just saw Dora of the King. And so your They said your surname's
[56:29] And so your They said your surname's King. I saw you dancing with the king.
[56:36] >> I want you to imagine for a moment what
[56:38] >> I want you to imagine for a moment what it would be like for him to be cruising
[56:39] it would be like for him to be cruising through Facebook and he sees a woman who
[56:42] through Facebook and he sees a woman who uh has this set of things on Facebook.
[56:46] uh has this set of things on Facebook. Oh, her name's King. That's useful. I
[56:47] Oh, her name's King. That's useful. I like when I can use homonyms, right?
[56:49] like when I can use homonyms, right? Okay. So, there we go. Oh, she's
[56:51] Okay. So, there we go. Oh, she's dancing. I can use the dancing thing.
[56:52] dancing. I can use the dancing thing. Perhaps knew ahead of time that she was
[56:54] Perhaps knew ahead of time that she was crippled. Um, and maybe his wife knew
[56:57] crippled. Um, and maybe his wife knew ahead. I don't know how the wife Sarah
[57:00] ahead. I don't know how the wife Sarah knew where to go get her and knew to run
[57:02] knew where to go get her and knew to run and go find her. And I'm sure there's
[57:03] and go find her. And I'm sure there's I'm sure there's a good explanation for
[57:04] I'm sure there's a good explanation for it now, now that I were asking the
[57:06] it now, now that I were asking the question, but I don't know what the
[57:08] question, but I don't know what the truth of that is. But imagine what it
[57:10] truth of that is. But imagine what it was like for Gary to like troll through
[57:11] was like for Gary to like troll through Facebook and find the right people and
[57:13] Facebook and find the right people and think like, "Oh, here's someone who's
[57:14] think like, "Oh, here's someone who's handicapped." Like, that's going to be
[57:15] handicapped." Like, that's going to be really emotional.
[57:18] really emotional. Hypothetically,
[57:20] Hypothetically, based upon a significant amount of
[57:21] based upon a significant amount of evidence, that's probably what happened.
[57:23] evidence, that's probably what happened. >> Danced on you
[57:26] >> Danced on you dance.
[57:29] dance. Even though the doctors said you
[57:31] Even though the doctors said you couldn't, still dance.
[57:33] couldn't, still dance. >> Even though the doctors said you
[57:35] >> Even though the doctors said you couldn't, you'll dance.
[57:40] couldn't, you'll dance. Is he Is he prophesying healing?
[57:44] Is he Is he prophesying healing? Even though the medical profession wrote
[57:46] Even though the medical profession wrote you off, you still dance.
[57:50] you off, you still dance. You're a beautiful dancer.
[57:53] You're a beautiful dancer. You're a beautiful dancer. So, this is
[57:55] You're a beautiful dancer. So, this is one of those things where it's unclear.
[57:57] one of those things where it's unclear. The first part of what he said sounds
[57:59] The first part of what he said sounds like he's saying that she's going to uh
[58:01] like he's saying that she's going to uh be able to dance because she'll implied
[58:04] be able to dance because she'll implied be healed, but then as soon as he says
[58:06] be healed, but then as soon as he says more, you're like, well, maybe that's
[58:07] more, you're like, well, maybe that's not what he meant. And this is
[58:08] not what he meant. And this is consistent. And the last thing I'll say
[58:10] consistent. And the last thing I'll say about these this row of prophetic things
[58:11] about these this row of prophetic things from uh Gary Morgan is that the
[58:14] from uh Gary Morgan is that the prophecies, the things he knows about
[58:15] prophecies, the things he knows about them are highly specific. Uh the
[58:17] them are highly specific. Uh the birthday, the last name, the situation
[58:19] birthday, the last name, the situation in their families going on, but the
[58:21] in their families going on, but the prophecies about the future are
[58:22] prophecies about the future are generally very generic, right? Just like
[58:24] generally very generic, right? Just like positivity or the Lord's opening up
[58:26] positivity or the Lord's opening up something new. He's going to use you in
[58:28] something new. He's going to use you in whatever way is consistent with what I
[58:30] whatever way is consistent with what I already know about you. That is the the
[58:33] already know about you. That is the the pattern. super specific word of
[58:34] pattern. super specific word of knowledge, easily accessible on
[58:36] knowledge, easily accessible on Facebook, really vague statement about
[58:39] Facebook, really vague statement about their future that is mostly untestable.
[58:43] their future that is mostly untestable. Although years have gone by since this,
[58:44] Although years have gone by since this, so these people, many of them could
[58:46] so these people, many of them could actually test those words. Um, but even
[58:48] actually test those words. Um, but even still, here's how it works with a fake
[58:50] still, here's how it works with a fake prophecy. I prophecy to 15 different
[58:53] prophecy. I prophecy to 15 different people that they're going to have an
[58:54] people that they're going to have an amazing business. 14 of them don't. They
[58:57] amazing business. 14 of them don't. They lose all their money. They sp they put
[58:59] lose all their money. They sp they put everything they had into something cuz I
[59:00] everything they had into something cuz I prophesied it and then they lost it all.
[59:02] prophesied it and then they lost it all. one of them succeeded and I ignore and
[59:05] one of them succeeded and I ignore and forget the 14, but the one who
[59:07] forget the 14, but the one who succeeded, I can pull that guy out
[59:08] succeeded, I can pull that guy out anytime I want as as proof of my
[59:10] anytime I want as as proof of my prophetic truthfulness, right? That God
[59:12] prophetic truthfulness, right? That God used me and this guy feels indebted to
[59:14] used me and this guy feels indebted to me cuz while he did it without my
[59:16] me cuz while he did it without my involvement, he he feels like I owe this
[59:20] involvement, he he feels like I owe this guy, you know, he encouraged me and he
[59:22] guy, you know, he encouraged me and he told me to do it and I went for it. So,
[59:24] told me to do it and I went for it. So, yeah, it's a numbers game. You prophesy
[59:26] yeah, it's a numbers game. You prophesy fake to enough people. You ignore the
[59:28] fake to enough people. You ignore the ones you hurt. you you remember the ones
[59:30] ones you hurt. you you remember the ones that you happened to be right about and
[59:32] that you happened to be right about and you can continue to stockpile amazing
[59:34] you can continue to stockpile amazing stories.
[59:42] I didn't realize I had one more. So this
[59:44] I didn't realize I had one more. So this one, listen to what he's again Gary
[59:47] one, listen to what he's again Gary tells on himself. He's he's really bad
[59:49] tells on himself. He's he's really bad at this. Listen to this.
[59:52] at this. Listen to this. >> Senorita or Senita. Senorita or Senita.
[59:57] >> Senorita or Senita. Senorita or Senita. Senorita or Senita, those are two very
[01:00:00] Senorita or Senita, those are two very different words, right? Senorita, that
[01:00:03] different words, right? Senorita, that that is a much longer word with extra
[01:00:06] that is a much longer word with extra letters in it versus Senita, which is a
[01:00:09] letters in it versus Senita, which is a word most of us have probably never
[01:00:10] word most of us have probably never heard of. It's a name. So, it could be
[01:00:12] heard of. It's a name. So, it could be either one. He doesn't know which one it
[01:00:13] either one. He doesn't know which one it is, right? That's why he said Senorita
[01:00:16] is, right? That's why he said Senorita or Senita. Well, well, let's listen.
[01:00:22] or Senita. Well, well, let's listen. >> Is that anyone?
[01:00:30] Your name's Senita.
[01:00:35] >> Did you hear that? Somebody named Evvita
[01:00:38] >> Did you hear that? Somebody named Evvita responded to him and he didn't go, "Is
[01:00:40] responded to him and he didn't go, "Is your name Senorita? Is your name
[01:00:42] your name Senorita? Is your name Senita?" He he he know he seems to think
[01:00:44] Senita?" He he he know he seems to think it's a name. Didn't reveal that, but now
[01:00:46] it's a name. Didn't reveal that, but now now it seems to be out there. But he
[01:00:49] now it seems to be out there. But he says, "Is your name Senita?" And keep
[01:00:52] says, "Is your name Senita?" And keep listening. No, it's it's s an i ta.
[01:00:58] >> How? Oh, dimwitted Gary Morgan. Did you
[01:01:02] >> How? Oh, dimwitted Gary Morgan. Did you start with I have one of these? I don't
[01:01:06] start with I have one of these? I don't know which one. Senorita or Senita and
[01:01:08] know which one. Senorita or Senita and as soon as someone says,
[01:01:11] as soon as someone says, you go, "No, no, it's Senita." And
[01:01:13] you go, "No, no, it's Senita." And here's how it's spelled. Sit ta. You You
[01:01:16] here's how it's spelled. Sit ta. You You even have the spelling and you know
[01:01:17] even have the spelling and you know exactly which one it is because he keeps
[01:01:19] exactly which one it is because he keeps showing his cards. Gary's not very good
[01:01:22] showing his cards. Gary's not very good at this. You're just not that good at
[01:01:24] at this. You're just not that good at it. Um, which is which is why you got
[01:01:26] it. Um, which is which is why you got caught, which is why you didn't actually
[01:01:28] caught, which is why you didn't actually continue to he had to stop doing this. I
[01:01:30] continue to he had to stop doing this. I don't if you guys know this, but he's at
[01:01:32] don't if you guys know this, but he's at least to my knowledge, he's either
[01:01:33] least to my knowledge, he's either stopped or at least cut way back on the
[01:01:35] stopped or at least cut way back on the number of times that he does this exact
[01:01:37] number of times that he does this exact kind of thing because it was it was too
[01:01:39] kind of thing because it was it was too hot, I think, for him. And um and but
[01:01:42] hot, I think, for him. And um and but yeah, still, if you'll fake this, you
[01:01:43] yeah, still, if you'll fake this, you are fake. Period. You have to be written
[01:01:45] are fake. Period. You have to be written off. Period.
[01:01:47] off. Period. There is. Okay. I saw Let me describe
[01:01:49] There is. Okay. I saw Let me describe her.
[01:01:51] her. She's a woman who's behind a camera.
[01:01:54] She's a woman who's behind a camera. >> Wait, what?
[01:01:56] >> Wait, what? So, listen. He says, "Senorita or
[01:01:58] So, listen. He says, "Senorita or Senita." He was hoping Senita would pop
[01:02:00] Senita." He was hoping Senita would pop up and be like, "It's me. I'm Senita."
[01:02:01] up and be like, "It's me. I'm Senita." That didn't work. Vita shows up. So, he
[01:02:03] That didn't work. Vita shows up. So, he goes, "No, no, no. It's Senita. It's
[01:02:04] goes, "No, no, no. It's Senita. It's spelled this way." And then he suddenly
[01:02:07] spelled this way." And then he suddenly knows even more. He goes, "It's a woman
[01:02:08] knows even more. He goes, "It's a woman who's behind a camera." So, he knows
[01:02:10] who's behind a camera." So, he knows what kind of work she does. He knows the
[01:02:12] what kind of work she does. He knows the kind of thing she does either volunteer
[01:02:14] kind of thing she does either volunteer or or what or some kind of work that
[01:02:15] or or what or some kind of work that she's behind a camera photography.
[01:02:20] >> Okay. She's a photographer. Okay, let me
[01:02:22] >> Okay. She's a photographer. Okay, let me declare this. I'm going to go down this.
[01:02:24] declare this. I'm going to go down this. So, the Lord says 6th of August.
[01:02:26] So, the Lord says 6th of August. >> And there's her on August 6th on her uh
[01:02:28] >> And there's her on August 6th on her uh Facebook page. People saying uh you
[01:02:30] Facebook page. People saying uh you know, saying thank you for wishing me
[01:02:32] know, saying thank you for wishing me happy birthday on August 6th.
[01:02:33] happy birthday on August 6th. >> And the Lord's taking you from behind
[01:02:35] >> And the Lord's taking you from behind the camera to in front of the camera.
[01:02:38] the camera to in front of the camera. And the Lord wants you to know there is
[01:02:39] And the Lord wants you to know there is a beauty that is upon your life that you
[01:02:42] a beauty that is upon your life that you see in others. But the Lord is saying he
[01:02:44] see in others. But the Lord is saying he is he is wanting to bless you to see in
[01:02:46] is he is wanting to bless you to see in yourself. I mean that's nice,
[01:02:50] yourself. I mean that's nice, but it's like Pharaoh's magicians. It's
[01:02:51] but it's like Pharaoh's magicians. It's like the kind of thing you could just
[01:02:52] like the kind of thing you could just make up. You could just make up anytime.
[01:02:55] make up. You could just make up anytime. So this was some of the words that you
[01:02:57] So this was some of the words that you can imagine Nathaniel and Haley and then
[01:03:00] can imagine Nathaniel and Haley and then Chris and other guys getting to see this
[01:03:01] Chris and other guys getting to see this going, "Oh my, oh my goodness." Like
[01:03:03] going, "Oh my, oh my goodness." Like here's the word. We thought this was
[01:03:04] here's the word. We thought this was amazing. We were we were there in the
[01:03:05] amazing. We were we were there in the room. We thought it was a beautiful
[01:03:06] room. We thought it was a beautiful moment, but but now we're finding all
[01:03:09] moment, but but now we're finding all this information online. And I'll tell
[01:03:10] this information online. And I'll tell you, they didn't even notice necessarily
[01:03:12] you, they didn't even notice necessarily all the things I'm noticing, but I've
[01:03:13] all the things I'm noticing, but I've looked at enough of these
[01:03:16] looked at enough of these punks to be able to spot what they're
[01:03:18] punks to be able to spot what they're doing. And those of you who are like,
[01:03:18] doing. And those of you who are like, "Mike, don't call them punks." Listen,
[01:03:21] "Mike, don't call them punks." Listen, Jesus would have much harsher words for
[01:03:22] Jesus would have much harsher words for guys like Gary Morgan. Peter would have
[01:03:25] guys like Gary Morgan. Peter would have said something like, "For whom is
[01:03:26] said something like, "For whom is reserved the blackness of darkness
[01:03:28] reserved the blackness of darkness forever?" That's Peter, right? Jesus
[01:03:31] forever?" That's Peter, right? Jesus talked about the Pharisees because they
[01:03:33] talked about the Pharisees because they were hypocrites. They were faking. They
[01:03:35] were hypocrites. They were faking. They were actors. They were pretending and
[01:03:36] were actors. They were pretending and weren't real. And he talks about them uh
[01:03:40] weren't real. And he talks about them uh having weeping and nashing of teeth in
[01:03:41] having weeping and nashing of teeth in related to them in relation to them. So
[01:03:43] related to them in relation to them. So dum dum or numbum skull or all those
[01:03:46] dum dum or numbum skull or all those other things are completely appropriate
[01:03:48] other things are completely appropriate if not too soft for Gary Morgan. All
[01:03:51] if not too soft for Gary Morgan. All right, I'm a little worked up and you
[01:03:53] right, I'm a little worked up and you should be too. But I'm going to get back
[01:03:56] should be too. But I'm going to get back to the interview now and you'll hear me
[01:03:57] to the interview now and you'll hear me a cut in at some points here and there
[01:03:59] a cut in at some points here and there with little voiceovers that I'll do just
[01:04:01] with little voiceovers that I'll do just to help you guys be guided along the
[01:04:03] to help you guys be guided along the path to understand exactly what is up
[01:04:05] path to understand exactly what is up with Gary the well without water Morgan.
[01:04:15] it was certainly more than enough to
[01:04:18] it was certainly more than enough to kind of want to look into it further,
[01:04:20] kind of want to look into it further, you know, or want to bring it to the
[01:04:22] you know, or want to bring it to the leaders and um
[01:04:24] leaders and um >> yeah, so like that's what I I and
[01:04:27] >> yeah, so like that's what I I and Nathaniel and were trying to do. We went
[01:04:29] Nathaniel and were trying to do. We went to a couple of the senior leaders of the
[01:04:31] to a couple of the senior leaders of the church um
[01:04:33] church um >> to Pastor Katherine and Pastor Joel and
[01:04:36] >> to Pastor Katherine and Pastor Joel and uh it was met with um that's not true
[01:04:41] uh it was met with um that's not true kind of a feeling, you know. So it was
[01:04:43] kind of a feeling, you know. So it was like uh I know I know from pastor
[01:04:46] like uh I know I know from pastor Katherine she's like I know Gary he's
[01:04:47] Katherine she's like I know Gary he's relationally I know him this is not
[01:04:50] relationally I know him this is not happening you know and we're like but
[01:04:52] happening you know and we're like but isn't it and it was like just drop it
[01:04:54] isn't it and it was like just drop it you know this is not
[01:04:55] you know this is not >> and also Chris I'll add in the in the
[01:04:57] >> and also Chris I'll add in the in the middle of that as well there was like um
[01:05:00] middle of that as well there was like um a sense of I guess this was from Joel
[01:05:03] a sense of I guess this was from Joel but like here's a word that um he gave
[01:05:05] but like here's a word that um he gave at another church and again Mike we like
[01:05:08] at another church and again Mike we like our sense was like if if we can see this
[01:05:10] our sense was like if if we can see this is legit awesome like that's a good
[01:05:13] is legit awesome like that's a good thing.
[01:05:13] thing. >> And so he would kind of send words from
[01:05:17] >> And so he would kind of send words from um other churches that Gary had given
[01:05:19] um other churches that Gary had given saying, "Hey, how about this? You can't
[01:05:21] saying, "Hey, how about this? You can't explain that."
[01:05:22] explain that." >> And unfortunately,
[01:05:24] >> And unfortunately, >> I want to chime in if I can and say um
[01:05:26] >> I want to chime in if I can and say um >> yeah,
[01:05:27] >> yeah, >> it's it can take us a while to realize
[01:05:29] >> it's it can take us a while to realize when someone is a fraud.
[01:05:32] when someone is a fraud. >> And it and it can be this thing where
[01:05:33] >> And it and it can be this thing where we're almost we're trained to work for
[01:05:35] we're almost we're trained to work for them to like make even just the tiniest
[01:05:39] them to like make even just the tiniest slim of a possibility that they they're
[01:05:40] slim of a possibility that they they're still legit. we can we can sort of do
[01:05:43] still legit. we can we can sort of do their job for them and protect them and
[01:05:44] their job for them and protect them and then that you know propagates what
[01:05:46] then that you know propagates what they're doing. But what I've learned in
[01:05:48] they're doing. But what I've learned in my studies at least for my part I'll
[01:05:50] my studies at least for my part I'll speak for myself is that I believe these
[01:05:52] speak for myself is that I believe these guys who do this Facebook was just a new
[01:05:55] guys who do this Facebook was just a new convenient tool. This is something he
[01:05:57] convenient tool. This is something he probably does. I'm speaking for myself
[01:05:59] probably does. I'm speaking for myself here all the time. He is constantly
[01:06:02] here all the time. He is constantly learning people's names watching seeing
[01:06:03] learning people's names watching seeing when they open their wallet if there's
[01:06:05] when they open their wallet if there's any a picture there that he can learn
[01:06:06] any a picture there that he can learn something from so he can give them a
[01:06:08] something from so he can give them a prophetic word. When guys are data
[01:06:10] prophetic word. When guys are data mining on Facebook, it's because they
[01:06:11] mining on Facebook, it's because they data mine in life. And so when they give
[01:06:14] data mine in life. And so when they give you another word, it's how do you know
[01:06:16] you another word, it's how do you know that an email didn't come? Hey Gary, my
[01:06:18] that an email didn't come? Hey Gary, my cousin's coming. He's an atheist. He's
[01:06:21] cousin's coming. He's an atheist. He's he's he's in university and he just left
[01:06:23] he's he's in university and he just left the faith, but he's going to come. I
[01:06:24] the faith, but he's going to come. I hope you have a word for him. And then
[01:06:26] hope you have a word for him. And then now he has this email nobody knows
[01:06:28] now he has this email nobody knows about. So he can produce this word on
[01:06:29] about. So he can produce this word on the spot easily. Once the guy, you know,
[01:06:32] the spot easily. Once the guy, you know, the guy's a fraud, you have to start
[01:06:34] the guy's a fraud, you have to start noticing that they're always looking for
[01:06:37] noticing that they're always looking for more information. So that's at least how
[01:06:40] more information. So that's at least how I would view things. This to me is a
[01:06:42] I would view things. This to me is a huge smoking gun. The data that you
[01:06:43] huge smoking gun. The data that you brought to Katherine that you brought to
[01:06:45] brought to Katherine that you brought to your to your leaders um is is already
[01:06:49] your to your leaders um is is already enough to say this man is is data mining
[01:06:53] enough to say this man is is data mining stuff and making it up.
[01:06:55] stuff and making it up. >> Wow.
[01:06:55] >> Wow. >> But you actually ended up with a lot
[01:06:57] >> But you actually ended up with a lot more.
[01:06:58] more. >> Yeah. Well, that was the thing. It
[01:07:00] >> Yeah. Well, that was the thing. It started to um words from other churches.
[01:07:03] started to um words from other churches. We we looked into them and immediately
[01:07:07] We we looked into them and immediately it was more concern. It was and these
[01:07:09] it was more concern. It was and these were words Mike where some of them were
[01:07:11] were words Mike where some of them were were heavy things like someone had
[01:07:13] were heavy things like someone had passed away in a family and people are
[01:07:15] passed away in a family and people are crying and these are like these are
[01:07:16] crying and these are like these are serious stuff.
[01:07:18] serious stuff. >> What's the 7th of October?
[01:07:20] >> What's the 7th of October? >> Okay.
[01:07:24] >> Okay. I'm seeing the name Ellena. Who's
[01:07:26] >> Okay. I'm seeing the name Ellena. Who's Ellen?
[01:07:31] >> What's the 14th of July?
[01:07:36] 7th of July and 14th of July. That's
[01:07:38] 7th of July and 14th of July. That's that's personal to you guys.
[01:07:41] that's personal to you guys. Lord wants to say I'm redeeming whenever
[01:07:44] Lord wants to say I'm redeeming whenever I I'm redeeming.
[01:07:47] I I'm redeeming. >> You know what that is. And so I'm not
[01:07:49] >> You know what that is. And so I'm not going to go into that in the spirit, but
[01:07:50] going to go into that in the spirit, but you know what that is.
[01:07:52] you know what that is. >> The idea that someone could be doing
[01:07:54] >> The idea that someone could be doing this was deeply troubling to us. Like
[01:07:57] this was deeply troubling to us. Like really troubling. So yeah, over to you
[01:08:00] really troubling. So yeah, over to you Chris. But we
[01:08:01] Chris. But we >> it was just a time. It was a continual
[01:08:03] >> it was just a time. It was a continual time where you know um you know Joel
[01:08:06] time where you know um you know Joel would come back and go what about this
[01:08:07] would come back and go what about this word you know this he gave an address
[01:08:10] word you know this he gave an address how do you get that that's not on
[01:08:11] how do you get that that's not on Facebook and it was true and you know I
[01:08:14] Facebook and it was true and you know I was like kind of rejoicing you know oh
[01:08:17] was like kind of rejoicing you know oh great thank god everyone's right he's
[01:08:19] great thank god everyone's right he's Gary's you know not doing this Nathaniel
[01:08:22] Gary's you know not doing this Nathaniel goes hold up a Google search second from
[01:08:25] goes hold up a Google search second from the top address to this guy you know and
[01:08:28] the top address to this guy you know and it was like oh my gosh so it would just
[01:08:29] it was like oh my gosh so it would just throw us back
[01:08:30] throw us back >> a main leader a main leader at that
[01:08:32] >> a main leader a main leader at that church,
[01:08:32] church, >> a core leader in the church. Yeah. And
[01:08:34] >> a core leader in the church. Yeah. And that was another thing. It was like
[01:08:36] that was another thing. It was like there was a time it was like, well, when
[01:08:37] there was a time it was like, well, when he ministered at the HIM conference,
[01:08:39] he ministered at the HIM conference, there was no attending list.
[01:08:42] there was no attending list. >> So, how did you, you know, how would
[01:08:44] >> So, how did you, you know, how would anyone know who's going to even be
[01:08:45] anyone know who's going to even be there? And then we thought back and we
[01:08:47] there? And then we thought back and we go, well, hang on. All the people that
[01:08:50] go, well, hang on. All the people that that were prophesied over were all
[01:08:51] that were prophesied over were all people from our staff or that church's
[01:08:54] people from our staff or that church's staff pretty much. It was like a massive
[01:08:57] staff pretty much. It was like a massive majority at least. Anyway, we came away
[01:08:59] majority at least. Anyway, we came away specifically saying, "Wow, God blessed
[01:09:01] specifically saying, "Wow, God blessed our team so strongly there." Like God
[01:09:04] our team so strongly there." Like God really just picked our team to to bless
[01:09:06] really just picked our team to to bless that night with all we were getting all
[01:09:07] that night with all we were getting all the words.
[01:09:08] the words. >> And so you're like, "Well, you you could
[01:09:10] >> And so you're like, "Well, you you could be quite confident. There's no attending
[01:09:11] be quite confident. There's no attending list, but it didn't let's say put that
[01:09:15] list, but it didn't let's say put that sale that that question mark in our
[01:09:17] sale that that question mark in our heads that we were we were really hoping
[01:09:19] heads that we were we were really hoping to find that in that 3 months." This is
[01:09:22] to find that in that 3 months." This is uh common in other fake prophets that
[01:09:25] uh common in other fake prophets that I've looked into is they they prophesy
[01:09:27] I've looked into is they they prophesy to the worship team to the the
[01:09:29] to the worship team to the the leadership team. They'll meet with the
[01:09:31] leadership team. They'll meet with the pastor. What what prayer requests?
[01:09:32] pastor. What what prayer requests? What's going on in your church? They'll
[01:09:33] What's going on in your church? They'll gather data. Uh Paul Kaine from many
[01:09:36] gather data. Uh Paul Kaine from many many years back was uh reportedly busted
[01:09:39] many years back was uh reportedly busted for looking up member information in the
[01:09:42] for looking up member information in the files of a church and then using that to
[01:09:44] files of a church and then using that to prophesy. He had a great memory. So, he
[01:09:45] prophesy. He had a great memory. So, he would retain all that info and then he
[01:09:47] would retain all that info and then he would go public and and share it. And um
[01:09:51] would go public and and share it. And um and that that lines up. It's like a
[01:09:53] and that that lines up. It's like a symptom to look for is when this guy
[01:09:55] symptom to look for is when this guy goes into a room where he doesn't know
[01:09:57] goes into a room where he doesn't know anybody and he can't actually data mine
[01:09:59] anybody and he can't actually data mine for some reason. Does he pivot to the
[01:10:01] for some reason. Does he pivot to the people that he knows, all of a sudden
[01:10:03] people that he knows, all of a sudden he's prophesying to his own staff even
[01:10:05] he's prophesying to his own staff even or his own kids or something, you know?
[01:10:07] or his own kids or something, you know? And it's it's that is a red flag that we
[01:10:10] And it's it's that is a red flag that we should consider.
[01:10:12] should consider. And I guess for us, that's what it was
[01:10:14] And I guess for us, that's what it was at that stage. Real, really red flags,
[01:10:17] at that stage. Real, really red flags, serious red flags. And Gary was actually
[01:10:20] serious red flags. And Gary was actually going to be speaking at our church in
[01:10:22] going to be speaking at our church in just a few months um at a normal church
[01:10:25] just a few months um at a normal church service. And so it obviously
[01:10:28] service. And so it obviously um almost made it like a a ticking clock
[01:10:30] um almost made it like a a ticking clock for us that we needed to bring this to
[01:10:33] for us that we needed to bring this to the leadership um of which Chris and I
[01:10:36] the leadership um of which Chris and I did. We brought the um the multiple
[01:10:38] did. We brought the um the multiple words uh and and Chris, you could talk
[01:10:42] words uh and and Chris, you could talk to that, but we yeah, we we brought it
[01:10:43] to that, but we yeah, we we brought it to them.
[01:10:44] to them. >> Yeah. All the new stuff that we'd found,
[01:10:46] >> Yeah. All the new stuff that we'd found, it was like kind of a last ditch, okay,
[01:10:49] it was like kind of a last ditch, okay, can we just get a hearing, you know, can
[01:10:51] can we just get a hearing, you know, can we get lock in, you know, a a face to
[01:10:55] we get lock in, you know, a a face to face and go over everything? And it was
[01:10:58] face and go over everything? And it was like, you know what?
[01:11:01] like, you know what? If what would you need to see to to to
[01:11:04] If what would you need to see to to to believe that this is happening? You
[01:11:07] believe that this is happening? You know, if if he prophesied a fake
[01:11:09] know, if if he prophesied a fake Facebook, would that do it? If that
[01:11:11] Facebook, would that do it? If that person didn't even exist, would that do
[01:11:13] person didn't even exist, would that do it? And it was like,
[01:11:14] it? And it was like, >> and that was brought up in that meeting
[01:11:16] >> and that was brought up in that meeting um by by someone else, it was actually,
[01:11:18] um by by someone else, it was actually, oh, well, I guess if he called out a
[01:11:19] oh, well, I guess if he called out a fake Facebook page, that would obviously
[01:11:21] fake Facebook page, that would obviously be enough. Um, but the meeting quickly
[01:11:25] be enough. Um, but the meeting quickly shifted to a sense of, uh, I want you to
[01:11:28] shifted to a sense of, uh, I want you to drop it. I want you to leave it. Um, was
[01:11:31] drop it. I want you to leave it. Um, was the the instruction that that Chris and
[01:11:33] the the instruction that that Chris and I very strongly received in that
[01:11:37] I very strongly received in that meeting. Um, Pastor Catherine.
[01:11:38] meeting. Um, Pastor Catherine. >> Yes. Uh, yeah, correct. Um, but someone
[01:11:41] >> Yes. Uh, yeah, correct. Um, but someone who didn't receive that um, you know,
[01:11:44] who didn't receive that um, you know, instruction was Haley.
[01:11:46] instruction was Haley. >> I wasn't in that meeting. Uh, so I
[01:11:49] >> I wasn't in that meeting. Uh, so I wasn't told to drop it.
[01:11:51] wasn't told to drop it. >> Yeah. Well, good for Haley. Haley's
[01:11:52] >> Yeah. Well, good for Haley. Haley's Haley's a hero in this story. I love I
[01:11:55] Haley's a hero in this story. I love I love what what she did.
[01:12:03] So, let me just recap. So, you're in the
[01:12:05] So, let me just recap. So, you're in the meeting. You you present a number of
[01:12:07] meeting. You you present a number of evidences. You're given what about this
[01:12:09] evidences. You're given what about this word? What about that word? And yet, you
[01:12:10] word? What about that word? And yet, you can still look those up online. You can
[01:12:12] can still look those up online. You can find all the stuff, even the extra ones
[01:12:14] find all the stuff, even the extra ones they give online. It's just more red
[01:12:15] they give online. It's just more red flags. Then you're I'm guessing you're
[01:12:18] flags. Then you're I'm guessing you're understandably like I'm kind of up
[01:12:20] understandably like I'm kind of up against a wall. we've got a ton of
[01:12:21] against a wall. we've got a ton of evidence and it doesn't seem to raise
[01:12:22] evidence and it doesn't seem to raise any alarms for you guys. Um, what would
[01:12:25] any alarms for you guys. Um, what would it take? And they say, well, if there
[01:12:27] it take? And they say, well, if there was a fake Facebook page and he called
[01:12:29] was a fake Facebook page and he called out a person that doesn't even exist,
[01:12:31] out a person that doesn't even exist, then it would be for sure. Um, that's
[01:12:33] then it would be for sure. Um, that's the implication that I'm getting from
[01:12:34] the implication that I'm getting from your story here. And then then Haley
[01:12:37] your story here. And then then Haley takes in takes up for the next part of
[01:12:39] takes in takes up for the next part of the story,
[01:12:40] the story, >> right? Because the meeting moved on
[01:12:41] >> right? Because the meeting moved on pretty quickly to say, um, but I want
[01:12:43] pretty quickly to say, um, but I want you to drop it. This is a distraction. I
[01:12:45] you to drop it. This is a distraction. I want you guys to leave it. Um,
[01:12:47] want you guys to leave it. Um, >> and we came away feeling bound to that.
[01:12:49] >> and we came away feeling bound to that. you know, we felt like we couldn't, you
[01:12:52] you know, we felt like we couldn't, you know, in I don't know why when you look
[01:12:53] know, in I don't know why when you look back, it's like we'll just do it, you
[01:12:55] back, it's like we'll just do it, you know, but I've I personally felt like
[01:12:57] know, but I've I personally felt like I've done all I can do. Nathaniel, I
[01:12:59] I've done all I can do. Nathaniel, I think you felt the same. We've done all
[01:13:01] think you felt the same. We've done all we can do. We can't go any further with
[01:13:02] we can do. We can't go any further with this. We have to just let it go and and
[01:13:05] this. We have to just let it go and and and you know that that that was the
[01:13:07] and you know that that that was the impression or the feeling that we had.
[01:13:09] impression or the feeling that we had. Um but yeah, go on.
[01:13:12] Um but yeah, go on. >> Yeah. So I like obviously still
[01:13:15] >> Yeah. So I like obviously still continued to feel concerned about it and
[01:13:18] continued to feel concerned about it and quite um grieved as I would pray about
[01:13:21] quite um grieved as I would pray about it and things like that. So I decided to
[01:13:25] it and things like that. So I decided to make a fake person on Facebook and I
[01:13:29] make a fake person on Facebook and I made their first name Sarah. I made
[01:13:32] made their first name Sarah. I made their birthday the 10th of June. And I
[01:13:36] their birthday the 10th of June. And I took a photo of a couple of sheep next
[01:13:38] took a photo of a couple of sheep next door and I made that the profile
[01:13:40] door and I made that the profile picture. and um sent out some friend
[01:13:43] picture. and um sent out some friend requests to try and make it look legit
[01:13:46] requests to try and make it look legit enough and um and that was it. Like I'd
[01:13:50] enough and um and that was it. Like I'd thought about making a few like a few
[01:13:54] thought about making a few like a few fake people um but again didn't want to
[01:13:58] fake people um but again didn't want to spend too much time on it and wanted to
[01:14:00] spend too much time on it and wanted to just trust God with whatever happened.
[01:14:04] just trust God with whatever happened. Um, so,
[01:14:07] Um, so, so yeah, then it came time for Gary to
[01:14:10] so yeah, then it came time for Gary to come speak at our church again. And
[01:14:14] come speak at our church again. And in the leadup to it, our church put out
[01:14:16] in the leadup to it, our church put out a Facebook post um to say, you know,
[01:14:19] a Facebook post um to say, you know, Gary will be speaking on Friday night
[01:14:21] Gary will be speaking on Friday night and Sunday morning and Sunday night at
[01:14:23] and Sunday morning and Sunday night at our church. So, I got my fake person to
[01:14:26] our church. So, I got my fake person to comment like, "Yay, I can't wait."
[01:14:30] comment like, "Yay, I can't wait." >> on that post because there was no event.
[01:14:33] >> on that post because there was no event. That's literally the only thing that you
[01:14:35] That's literally the only thing that you did with that Facebook page was just one
[01:14:37] did with that Facebook page was just one little comment.
[01:14:39] little comment. >> Yeah.
[01:14:39] >> Yeah. >> And we got a screenshot off that.
[01:14:41] >> And we got a screenshot off that. >> Yeah.
[01:14:43] >> Yeah. >> So, um yeah, I did that and just prayed
[01:14:47] >> So, um yeah, I did that and just prayed and
[01:14:49] and um you know, tried to trust God with it
[01:14:52] um you know, tried to trust God with it and um and yeah, it came to the Friday
[01:14:55] and um and yeah, it came to the Friday night that Gary was speaking at the
[01:14:57] night that Gary was speaking at the church. Um Nathaniel was he was there.
[01:15:00] church. Um Nathaniel was he was there. He was
[01:15:03] He was and I was at home with our baby, but I
[01:15:06] and I was at home with our baby, but I was watching on live stream
[01:15:09] was watching on live stream and Gary gave a few prophetic words to
[01:15:12] and Gary gave a few prophetic words to people uh who were like mostly not in
[01:15:15] people uh who were like mostly not in the building again. So, he gave
[01:15:17] the building again. So, he gave prophetic words to live stream and then
[01:15:20] prophetic words to live stream and then I'll never forget when when he said that
[01:15:23] I'll never forget when when he said that he had a prophetic word for somebody
[01:15:25] he had a prophetic word for somebody called Sarah and he said that he had the
[01:15:28] called Sarah and he said that he had the date 10th of June.
[01:15:30] date 10th of June. And I remember I just like inhaled
[01:15:34] And I remember I just like inhaled sharply like
[01:15:36] sharply like >> I I seriously I'll go all night. Even if
[01:15:40] >> I I seriously I'll go all night. Even if the next five hit nothing, I'll still go
[01:15:43] the next five hit nothing, I'll still go for it. Why? Because I've seen so many
[01:15:45] for it. Why? Because I've seen so many people changed by the goodness of God.
[01:15:47] people changed by the goodness of God. Amen. Yeah.
[01:15:52] The next one I go was I saw the 10th of
[01:15:55] The next one I go was I saw the 10th of June and I had my wife's name Sarah.
[01:16:02] I had Sarah on the 10th of June.
[01:16:23] Okay, let me go down the camera again.
[01:16:28] in that moment and I just felt like I
[01:16:31] in that moment and I just felt like I just went numb almost like in shock at
[01:16:34] just went numb almost like in shock at what had just happened.
[01:16:36] what had just happened. >> Yeah.
[01:16:38] >> Yeah. >> Wow.
[01:16:39] >> Wow. >> And
[01:16:40] >> And >> you gave me a call.
[01:16:41] >> you gave me a call. >> Yeah. Run Nathaniel. And
[01:16:43] >> Yeah. Run Nathaniel. And >> I remember your voice just shaking when
[01:16:45] >> I remember your voice just shaking when she called me. I'd finished with the
[01:16:46] she called me. I'd finished with the camera as I picked up the Maybe I called
[01:16:48] camera as I picked up the Maybe I called you, but I remember your voice just
[01:16:50] you, but I remember your voice just >> Yeah. I felt like I was like trying to
[01:16:52] >> Yeah. I felt like I was like trying to get the words out like he said Sarah
[01:16:55] get the words out like he said Sarah 10th of June. That was my fake person.
[01:16:59] 10th of June. That was my fake person. >> So, Nathaniel came straight home.
[01:17:01] >> So, Nathaniel came straight home. >> I Yeah, I did. I don't even think I
[01:17:02] >> I Yeah, I did. I don't even think I turned the cameras off. I just said,
[01:17:04] turned the cameras off. I just said, "I'm coming home." And when I got home,
[01:17:07] "I'm coming home." And when I got home, we immediately contacted Tom and
[01:17:10] we immediately contacted Tom and Catherine, the senior pastors, of
[01:17:11] Catherine, the senior pastors, of course. And um I remember just talking
[01:17:15] course. And um I remember just talking to Catherine and explaining what had
[01:17:17] to Catherine and explaining what had happened. Um Tom, her husband, confirmed
[01:17:21] happened. Um Tom, her husband, confirmed that this was in had in fact happened.
[01:17:24] that this was in had in fact happened. He went on Facebook, double checked and
[01:17:27] He went on Facebook, double checked and um basically they said to us, "Hey, we
[01:17:30] um basically they said to us, "Hey, we we will deal with this. We will go talk
[01:17:33] we will deal with this. We will go talk to Gary and um leave it with us." And so
[01:17:38] to Gary and um leave it with us." And so the call ended. And for us, we we
[01:17:41] the call ended. And for us, we we thought that, you know, that was it. I I
[01:17:43] thought that, you know, that was it. I I um yeah, we we thought that was it.
[01:17:46] um yeah, we we thought that was it. >> And when you say you thought that was
[01:17:48] >> And when you say you thought that was it, you mean you thought you wouldn't
[01:17:50] it, you mean you thought you wouldn't need to be involved? They're going to
[01:17:51] need to be involved? They're going to take it from here and they're going to
[01:17:52] take it from here and they're going to hold him accountable. And I can I before
[01:17:55] hold him accountable. And I can I before you say what h say what happened next,
[01:17:57] you say what h say what happened next, can I just ask you like
[01:17:58] can I just ask you like >> I want people to understand like to
[01:18:00] >> I want people to understand like to realize what it's like
[01:18:01] realize what it's like >> to have someone who's even given you
[01:18:04] >> to have someone who's even given you like you were saying Haley's given you a
[01:18:05] like you were saying Haley's given you a prophetic word and then you're finding
[01:18:07] prophetic word and then you're finding out that this guy's fake. Um what like
[01:18:11] out that this guy's fake. Um what like that's got to feel like a violation to
[01:18:13] that's got to feel like a violation to you. I mean it's it's a violation
[01:18:15] you. I mean it's it's a violation against the Lord, but it's also a vi
[01:18:16] against the Lord, but it's also a vi violation against you because now you're
[01:18:18] violation against you because now you're you're like who who am I? like your your
[01:18:21] you're like who who am I? like your your puppet. You're you're just manipulating
[01:18:23] puppet. You're you're just manipulating me for some weird agenda. Um what was
[01:18:27] me for some weird agenda. Um what was that like for you? Cuz I know I know
[01:18:28] that like for you? Cuz I know I know what it's like to be at church and be
[01:18:30] what it's like to be at church and be like, "This is my place, man. This is
[01:18:32] like, "This is my place, man. This is where I'm safe and where I'm behind
[01:18:34] where I'm safe and where I'm behind everything and I support 100% what we're
[01:18:36] everything and I support 100% what we're doing." And it's just
[01:18:38] doing." And it's just >> Yeah.
[01:18:39] >> Yeah. >> such a betrayal. Um to to me, to to use
[01:18:43] >> such a betrayal. Um to to me, to to use a very simple American term, uh Gary is
[01:18:45] a very simple American term, uh Gary is a scumbag for doing this. And it's
[01:18:48] a scumbag for doing this. And it's atrocious that
[01:18:51] atrocious that that what happens down the road next is
[01:18:52] that what happens down the road next is you keep telling your story is that you
[01:18:55] you keep telling your story is that you guys are made out to be the bad guys in
[01:18:57] guys are made out to be the bad guys in this scenario. Um which blows my mind
[01:19:00] this scenario. Um which blows my mind and this is this is Anyway, I'll let you
[01:19:02] and this is this is Anyway, I'll let you tell more of the story. I don't want to
[01:19:03] tell more of the story. I don't want to get ahead of you, but would you just
[01:19:04] get ahead of you, but would you just tell us like what was that like in that
[01:19:06] tell us like what was that like in that experience?
[01:19:08] experience? >> Yeah, I think um we can only speak to
[01:19:10] >> Yeah, I think um we can only speak to what we personally experienced. Um, and
[01:19:15] what we personally experienced. Um, and for me, I do remember the feeling that
[01:19:18] for me, I do remember the feeling that it was very unsettling. And I remember
[01:19:23] it was very unsettling. And I remember um, actually like crying in prayer and
[01:19:28] um, actually like crying in prayer and just feeling a sense of injustice and a
[01:19:31] just feeling a sense of injustice and a real sense of grief
[01:19:33] real sense of grief um, over what I thought might have been
[01:19:36] um, over what I thought might have been happening.
[01:19:38] happening. It was a sense for um for for Haley like
[01:19:41] It was a sense for um for for Haley like it was deeply upsetting. And that night
[01:19:45] it was deeply upsetting. And that night we had a a sense of closure to some
[01:19:47] we had a a sense of closure to some extent cuz we did think Tom and
[01:19:49] extent cuz we did think Tom and Catherine would deal with it. Uh but we
[01:19:51] Catherine would deal with it. Uh but we didn't receive a call Saturday at all.
[01:19:53] didn't receive a call Saturday at all. Um and he was due to minister at our
[01:19:57] Um and he was due to minister at our church again on the Sunday. And so we
[01:20:00] church again on the Sunday. And so we didn't receive a call until the Sunday.
[01:20:03] didn't receive a call until the Sunday. And it was a call where Katherine told
[01:20:06] And it was a call where Katherine told us Gary would like to meet with us in
[01:20:08] us Gary would like to meet with us in the green room an hour before the
[01:20:09] the green room an hour before the service started um and wanted to talk to
[01:20:12] service started um and wanted to talk to us. So we were a bit confused as to what
[01:20:15] us. So we were a bit confused as to what that would be about. We arrived with our
[01:20:19] that would be about. We arrived with our How old was Gabriella at the time?
[01:20:20] How old was Gabriella at the time? >> Yeah. Yeah. As our young baby, few
[01:20:23] >> Yeah. Yeah. As our young baby, few months old.
[01:20:24] months old. >> Yeah. And we walked into the room and
[01:20:26] >> Yeah. And we walked into the room and very quickly we found out that Tom and
[01:20:29] very quickly we found out that Tom and Katherine had gone to Gary, talked to
[01:20:31] Katherine had gone to Gary, talked to him the Saturday and um he looked them
[01:20:34] him the Saturday and um he looked them in the eyes and said he's innocent and
[01:20:37] in the eyes and said he's innocent and they believed him.
[01:20:46] We also found out that at 8:50 that
[01:20:49] We also found out that at 8:50 that night, Saturday night, um, an email came
[01:20:52] night, Saturday night, um, an email came through from a supposed
[01:20:55] through from a supposed Sarah claiming to be the real Sarah to
[01:20:59] Sarah claiming to be the real Sarah to our Glory City info@ Glory City email
[01:21:02] our Glory City info@ Glory City email and basically said um, and we've got
[01:21:05] and basically said um, and we've got screenshots of that, but basically said
[01:21:07] screenshots of that, but basically said that um, it's the
[01:21:10] that um, it's the >> Yeah. Um, the emails said like, "Hi, I'm
[01:21:12] >> Yeah. Um, the emails said like, "Hi, I'm Sarah and that was my birthday, 10th of
[01:21:15] Sarah and that was my birthday, 10th of June." And I believe the word was for
[01:21:17] June." And I believe the word was for me.
[01:21:17] me. >> And apparently Gary also forwarded the
[01:21:20] >> And apparently Gary also forwarded the email to Catherine cuz the the supposed
[01:21:23] email to Catherine cuz the the supposed Sarah had emailed him. And so he emailed
[01:21:25] Sarah had emailed him. And so he emailed Catherine Sunday morning and said,
[01:21:27] Catherine Sunday morning and said, "Looks like this Sarah's real basically.
[01:21:29] "Looks like this Sarah's real basically. And um, let's meet with Nathaniel and
[01:21:31] And um, let's meet with Nathaniel and Haley so the devil doesn't have a
[01:21:34] Haley so the devil doesn't have a foothold." And
[01:21:35] foothold." And >> so we're in this meeting just shaken.
[01:21:37] >> so we're in this meeting just shaken. >> So I don't mean to laugh at the
[01:21:39] >> So I don't mean to laugh at the statement. It's just he's Gary has a
[01:21:41] statement. It's just he's Gary has a habit of telling on himself I think from
[01:21:42] habit of telling on himself I think from other conversations I've had with a guy
[01:21:45] other conversations I've had with a guy and uh when he says that he spells faith
[01:21:47] and uh when he says that he spells faith r i s k I'm just like yep that is a risk
[01:21:49] r i s k I'm just like yep that is a risk you're taking looking people's
[01:21:50] you're taking looking people's information up online then when he says
[01:21:52] information up online then when he says I wouldn't let let the devil get a
[01:21:54] I wouldn't let let the devil get a foothold and I'm just like he's already
[01:21:55] foothold and I'm just like he's already got your whole leg dude but um
[01:21:58] got your whole leg dude but um >> and if I can just add I I spoke to
[01:22:02] >> and if I can just add I I spoke to somebody that was a witness
[01:22:04] somebody that was a witness u to his sort of countenance at the time
[01:22:07] u to his sort of countenance at the time after he was confronted with this pre
[01:22:10] after he was confronted with this pre pre that meeting who said to me the guy
[01:22:14] pre that meeting who said to me the guy was worried. I don't know what was going
[01:22:17] was worried. I don't know what was going on but he was worried to the core
[01:22:22] on but he was worried to the core >> and that night to the effect. So I I
[01:22:25] >> and that night to the effect. So I I don't know when uh I just know it was
[01:22:28] don't know when uh I just know it was somewhere around the time somebody had
[01:22:32] somewhere around the time somebody had seen him and said this guy was worried
[01:22:34] seen him and said this guy was worried to the and and mentioned something to
[01:22:36] to the and and mentioned something to the effect of this thing's going to blow
[01:22:37] the effect of this thing's going to blow up big.
[01:22:39] up big. >> Mhm.
[01:22:40] >> Mhm. >> I don't know what he was talking about
[01:22:41] >> I don't know what he was talking about or why he would be so worried if you
[01:22:43] or why he would be so worried if you were if you had nothing to worry about.
[01:22:45] were if you had nothing to worry about. I don't know, you know.
[01:22:47] I don't know, you know. >> Yeah, it's it's interesting to know and
[01:22:48] >> Yeah, it's it's interesting to know and and uh this email turns out to be really
[01:22:51] and uh this email turns out to be really really important. Um, correct.
[01:22:54] really important. Um, correct. >> Yeah. But we'll we'll just just point
[01:22:56] >> Yeah. But we'll we'll just just point out that you already said this, but the
[01:22:58] out that you already said this, but the email shows up after he's told that he's
[01:23:00] email shows up after he's told that he's under suspicion. He finds out he's under
[01:23:02] under suspicion. He finds out he's under suspicion and then an email comes in and
[01:23:04] suspicion and then an email comes in and says, "Hey, it's me. I'm Sarah."
[01:23:07] says, "Hey, it's me. I'm Sarah." >> Yeah,
[01:23:08] >> Yeah, >> correct. Yes. From a Sarah Liberty. The
[01:23:11] >> correct. Yes. From a Sarah Liberty. The email was from. And so this meeting,
[01:23:15] email was from. And so this meeting, this in the green room very quickly
[01:23:17] this in the green room very quickly became about us. And it it was really
[01:23:21] became about us. And it it was really confusing to us because um things were
[01:23:26] confusing to us because um things were thrown around very quickly. Uh do do you
[01:23:28] thrown around very quickly. Uh do do you remember some of the
[01:23:29] remember some of the >> Yeah. So Gary was asking us, you know,
[01:23:31] >> Yeah. So Gary was asking us, you know, why did you set a trap? Uh that's what
[01:23:34] why did you set a trap? Uh that's what that's what he said that it was making a
[01:23:36] that's what he said that it was making a fake person on Facebook. Um and I
[01:23:40] fake person on Facebook. Um and I remember he quoted the scripture verse
[01:23:42] remember he quoted the scripture verse in Proverbs that says, "He who sets a
[01:23:45] in Proverbs that says, "He who sets a trap will fall in it." And he seemed to
[01:23:50] trap will fall in it." And he seemed to imply that there was something. Oh, I
[01:23:53] imply that there was something. Oh, I can't hear you.
[01:23:53] can't hear you. >> Oh, sorry. I want to remember forever
[01:23:55] >> Oh, sorry. I want to remember forever that he said that to you.
[01:23:57] that he said that to you. He who says cuz Gary has a way of just
[01:24:00] He who says cuz Gary has a way of just saying the things that backfire cuz this
[01:24:02] saying the things that backfire cuz this is a trap he set. It turns out we'll
[01:24:03] is a trap he set. It turns out we'll find out as you tell the story. And it
[01:24:05] find out as you tell the story. And it does. He is the one that falls into it.
[01:24:06] does. He is the one that falls into it. Actually, he's going to fall into it
[01:24:07] Actually, he's going to fall into it today as people see this video and find
[01:24:09] today as people see this video and find out the true story of what really
[01:24:10] out the true story of what really happened here. Um, but yeah, they they
[01:24:13] happened here. Um, but yeah, they they come against you for this this email,
[01:24:14] come against you for this this email, which or this Facebook page, which is
[01:24:16] which or this Facebook page, which is nuts to me because every criminal, of
[01:24:19] nuts to me because every criminal, of course, in court who got caught from an
[01:24:22] course, in court who got caught from an under undercover cop pretending to be a
[01:24:24] under undercover cop pretending to be a prostitute or something is going to say,
[01:24:25] prostitute or something is going to say, "Well, they tra they tricked me. They
[01:24:28] "Well, they tra they tricked me. They tricked me." You know, and this is
[01:24:30] tricked me." You know, and this is irrelevant. Like, that is just good
[01:24:33] irrelevant. Like, that is just good undercover work. Like every espionage
[01:24:36] undercover work. Like every espionage thing that has been successful was based
[01:24:38] thing that has been successful was based upon the idea of having to do certain
[01:24:40] upon the idea of having to do certain things in order to give the opportunity
[01:24:42] things in order to give the opportunity for someone to reveal themselves. And I
[01:24:44] for someone to reveal themselves. And I think that it's fine. You know, God
[01:24:46] think that it's fine. You know, God says, "Let why don't you send spies into
[01:24:48] says, "Let why don't you send spies into the land." So, they hid their
[01:24:49] the land." So, they hid their identities. Rahab hides them, you know,
[01:24:52] identities. Rahab hides them, you know, as they uh as they're checking out the
[01:24:54] as they uh as they're checking out the the land of Jericho. This sort of thing.
[01:24:56] the land of Jericho. This sort of thing. Uh Jesus even sometimes would travel in
[01:24:58] Uh Jesus even sometimes would travel in ways where he was incognito or ask
[01:25:00] ways where he was incognito or ask people trick questions and lay traps for
[01:25:01] people trick questions and lay traps for the Pharisees and stuff. Anyway, I'm
[01:25:03] the Pharisees and stuff. Anyway, I'm just saying I'm in your corner. You
[01:25:05] just saying I'm in your corner. You don't even need to defend yourself.
[01:25:07] don't even need to defend yourself. >> There there's an entire task force here
[01:25:08] >> There there's an entire task force here in Australia at the moment and the their
[01:25:11] in Australia at the moment and the their whole job is to catch guys going after
[01:25:13] whole job is to catch guys going after underage
[01:25:14] underage children. And their whole job is
[01:25:16] children. And their whole job is creating fake Facebooks to get these
[01:25:18] creating fake Facebooks to get these these guys, you know,
[01:25:20] these guys, you know, >> right? And they're heroes. What they're
[01:25:21] >> right? And they're heroes. What they're doing is awesome. And anybody who's who
[01:25:23] doing is awesome. And anybody who's who says, "Yeah, but they were they were
[01:25:25] says, "Yeah, but they were they were deceitful and they they laid traps."
[01:25:27] deceitful and they they laid traps." We're like, "What's your internet search
[01:25:29] We're like, "What's your internet search history?" is what I want to know if
[01:25:30] history?" is what I want to know if you're saying that kind of stuff. you
[01:25:32] you're saying that kind of stuff. you know, so it's
[01:25:34] know, so it's >> sketchy.
[01:25:36] >> sketchy. >> I I do believe um Paley is the hero of
[01:25:39] >> I I do believe um Paley is the hero of this story with her actions. Um
[01:25:42] this story with her actions. Um >> at the time though, we were in our mid
[01:25:45] >> at the time though, we were in our mid early mid20s and very confused. And so
[01:25:48] early mid20s and very confused. And so we we were just um dumbfounded and it
[01:25:54] we we were just um dumbfounded and it became even worse when
[01:25:57] became even worse when um it was said that you know the
[01:26:00] um it was said that you know the Pharisees asked for a sign and we were
[01:26:03] Pharisees asked for a sign and we were testing God. Um we it said that we were
[01:26:06] testing God. Um we it said that we were it was said that we were on um a witch
[01:26:08] it was said that we were on um a witch hunt. And this is where I guess the the
[01:26:10] hunt. And this is where I guess the the details are difficult. It it didn't just
[01:26:12] details are difficult. It it didn't just come from Gary. And as as much as it
[01:26:14] come from Gary. And as as much as it pains me to say this, it came from our
[01:26:18] pains me to say this, it came from our um our leadership as well, from
[01:26:19] um our leadership as well, from Katherine. And in we were absolutely
[01:26:23] Katherine. And in we were absolutely shocked. Like we could hardly speak. Um
[01:26:25] shocked. Like we could hardly speak. Um >> it was it was hard having
[01:26:28] >> it was it was hard having having our pastor say, "Well, do you
[01:26:30] having our pastor say, "Well, do you think Jesus would have set a trap?" I
[01:26:33] think Jesus would have set a trap?" I don't think Jesus would have done this.
[01:26:36] don't think Jesus would have done this. >> I think so. I think he would have.
[01:26:38] >> I think so. I think he would have. >> Yeah.
[01:26:40] >> Yeah. And by the end of the meeting, we were
[01:26:42] And by the end of the meeting, we were um you know, just very confused. We left
[01:26:45] um you know, just very confused. We left the church that night at I remember the
[01:26:48] the church that night at I remember the worship was starting and I just we we
[01:26:50] worship was starting and I just we we didn't want to even talk to anybody. We
[01:26:52] didn't want to even talk to anybody. We just wanted to get home and and process
[01:26:55] just wanted to get home and and process to try and figure out um
[01:26:57] to try and figure out um >> what had just happened. We just felt so
[01:26:59] >> what had just happened. We just felt so confused, so bewildered at at what had
[01:27:03] confused, so bewildered at at what had just happened.
[01:27:04] just happened. >> Um even that night.
[01:27:06] >> Um even that night. >> Yeah. Like we went home and I remember
[01:27:09] >> Yeah. Like we went home and I remember Nathaniel is almost never like this, but
[01:27:11] Nathaniel is almost never like this, but he was pacing back and forth across the
[01:27:13] he was pacing back and forth across the room and just like saying like, "Oh, I
[01:27:18] room and just like saying like, "Oh, I don't think there's anything wrong in my
[01:27:19] don't think there's anything wrong in my heart, but oh maybe, you know, God,
[01:27:21] heart, but oh maybe, you know, God, search my heart. Like, is there anything
[01:27:23] search my heart. Like, is there anything wrong in my heart?" Like, um, and that
[01:27:26] wrong in my heart?" Like, um, and that kind of thing. It was just extremely
[01:27:29] kind of thing. It was just extremely unsettling.
[01:27:30] unsettling. >> Definitely. And the next part of the
[01:27:32] >> Definitely. And the next part of the story, I've agonized over h whether or
[01:27:35] story, I've agonized over h whether or how to tell this, but it feels important
[01:27:38] how to tell this, but it feels important to the to the story, I believe. So,
[01:27:41] to the to the story, I believe. So, um, the next day,
[01:27:45] um, the next day, Katherine asked me to come over to her
[01:27:46] Katherine asked me to come over to her house and I remember just
[01:27:50] house and I remember just sitting in a in a chair that I felt like
[01:27:52] sitting in a in a chair that I felt like I was sinking into. And um the things
[01:27:55] I was sinking into. And um the things from the day before were said and
[01:27:57] from the day before were said and echoed, but even worse at this time it
[01:27:59] echoed, but even worse at this time it was said that I was like um you know,
[01:28:02] was said that I was like um you know, you've called the works of um the the
[01:28:06] you've called the works of um the the Holy Spirit the works of Satan and this
[01:28:09] Holy Spirit the works of Satan and this is extremely serious. You've really hurt
[01:28:11] is extremely serious. You've really hurt me. And I remember she said to me, "I
[01:28:16] me. And I remember she said to me, "I want you to call Gary. I'm going to put
[01:28:18] want you to call Gary. I'm going to put him on speaker phone and I want you to
[01:28:21] him on speaker phone and I want you to apologize to him and tell him
[01:28:23] apologize to him and tell him that you're wrong. And I remember just I
[01:28:27] that you're wrong. And I remember just I couldn't I couldn't do that. And I just
[01:28:29] couldn't I couldn't do that. And I just said to can I go pray for 10 minutes at
[01:28:32] said to can I go pray for 10 minutes at least? And um
[01:28:40] I remember just calling
[01:28:44] I remember just calling I didn't think I'd get emotional on
[01:28:45] I didn't think I'd get emotional on this. Sorry.
[01:28:46] this. Sorry. >> It's okay.
[01:28:51] I remember calling Haley's parents cuz I
[01:28:54] I remember calling Haley's parents cuz I didn't
[01:28:55] didn't I didn't know what to do and um
[01:29:01] and they said to me
[01:29:03] and they said to me Haley's mom said, "You're a good man,
[01:29:05] Haley's mom said, "You're a good man, Nathaniel." And I just started crying.
[01:29:08] Nathaniel." And I just started crying. Then Haley's dad said, "You can't
[01:29:12] Then Haley's dad said, "You can't apologize without your wife. This is
[01:29:14] apologize without your wife. This is something you guys have to do together."
[01:29:16] something you guys have to do together." So he he gave me that advice which
[01:29:18] So he he gave me that advice which really helped me because um I told
[01:29:21] really helped me because um I told Katherine I'm not willing to to do
[01:29:23] Katherine I'm not willing to to do anything without my wife and um I went
[01:29:26] anything without my wife and um I went back home and at the time we lived next
[01:29:28] back home and at the time we lived next door to Tom and Catherine rented from
[01:29:30] door to Tom and Catherine rented from them and were full-time on staff with
[01:29:32] them and were full-time on staff with them. So I came back and and Haley and I
[01:29:35] them. So I came back and and Haley and I just had to figure out what on earth to
[01:29:38] just had to figure out what on earth to do. Um you go
[01:29:41] do. Um you go >> we tried to you know think of what could
[01:29:44] >> we tried to you know think of what could we apologize for? we need to think of
[01:29:46] we apologize for? we need to think of something because
[01:29:47] something because >> because I was not willing to to go
[01:29:51] >> because I was not willing to to go against my conviction and say I believe
[01:29:53] against my conviction and say I believe Gary to be innocent. I'd rather lose my
[01:29:54] Gary to be innocent. I'd rather lose my job.
[01:29:55] job. >> Right. So at this time you still believe
[01:29:57] >> Right. So at this time you still believe he's guilty, but you're experiencing
[01:30:00] he's guilty, but you're experiencing incredible
[01:30:02] incredible um pressure from your pastor.
[01:30:04] um pressure from your pastor. >> It was hard for me to deny the this my
[01:30:07] >> It was hard for me to deny the this my personal opinion, but the evidence that
[01:30:09] personal opinion, but the evidence that that stood before us, especially when it
[01:30:11] that stood before us, especially when it was said this is what would need to be
[01:30:12] was said this is what would need to be seen. um that was put out there. So for
[01:30:16] seen. um that was put out there. So for me it was like we've seen this. I can't
[01:30:18] me it was like we've seen this. I can't test whether this Sarah is real right
[01:30:20] test whether this Sarah is real right now, but that looks extremely
[01:30:22] now, but that looks extremely suspicious. What I can't deny is that a
[01:30:24] suspicious. What I can't deny is that a Facebook page has been called that was
[01:30:27] Facebook page has been called that was created
[01:30:28] created to to trap Gary. That's the truth. It
[01:30:31] to to trap Gary. That's the truth. It was and it's a I believe that's a heroic
[01:30:33] was and it's a I believe that's a heroic thing that Haley did. Any anyway, back
[01:30:35] thing that Haley did. Any anyway, back to that moment. So, one of the things
[01:30:38] to that moment. So, one of the things that Katherine had said uh at some point
[01:30:41] that Katherine had said uh at some point in this process is that these things are
[01:30:44] in this process is that these things are discerned in the spirit and you need to
[01:30:47] discerned in the spirit and you need to believe in the spirit
[01:30:48] believe in the spirit >> no matter what.
[01:30:49] >> no matter what. >> No matter what. And so we as we tried to
[01:30:53] >> No matter what. And so we as we tried to figure out what can we apologize for,
[01:30:57] figure out what can we apologize for, >> we came up with well we can apologize
[01:31:00] >> we came up with well we can apologize for not seeking only in the spirit. Like
[01:31:03] for not seeking only in the spirit. Like we went to Facebook as well. So,
[01:31:06] we went to Facebook as well. So, >> so we went back over. Um, Katherine put
[01:31:09] >> so we went back over. Um, Katherine put Did you want to say anything there?
[01:31:10] Did you want to say anything there? >> Um, Katherine put Gary on speaker phone
[01:31:13] >> Um, Katherine put Gary on speaker phone and we apologized for that.
[01:31:15] and we apologized for that. >> Um,
[01:31:16] >> Um, >> Mhm.
[01:31:17] >> Mhm. >> and it it honestly seemed like it was
[01:31:19] >> and it it honestly seemed like it was just more they both just wanted it over.
[01:31:22] just more they both just wanted it over. So, um, yeah, we apologize for that. The
[01:31:25] So, um, yeah, we apologize for that. The >> call I'm going to share with you what I
[01:31:28] >> call I'm going to share with you what I believe was going on there. Okay, this
[01:31:29] believe was going on there. Okay, this is based upon a number of situations
[01:31:31] is based upon a number of situations I've heard about is that this
[01:31:34] I've heard about is that this accusation, this is this is hypothetical
[01:31:36] accusation, this is this is hypothetical or this is my hypothesis, I'll put it
[01:31:38] or this is my hypothesis, I'll put it that way. Um, the information where
[01:31:41] that way. Um, the information where people might be whispering that they
[01:31:44] people might be whispering that they caught you looking stuff up online. They
[01:31:46] caught you looking stuff up online. They caught this. That's the fear. That's the
[01:31:47] caught this. That's the fear. That's the great fear. It's not you. It's it's it's
[01:31:49] great fear. It's not you. It's it's it's things spreading uh for Gary and the
[01:31:53] things spreading uh for Gary and the power of him being able to tell people
[01:31:56] power of him being able to tell people they apologize to me. That's end of
[01:31:58] they apologize to me. That's end of story. It doesn't even matter what he
[01:32:00] story. It doesn't even matter what he says you apologized about. He has if he
[01:32:01] says you apologized about. He has if he has that in his pocket, he can he can
[01:32:03] has that in his pocket, he can he can use that rhetorically. Anytime someone
[01:32:05] use that rhetorically. Anytime someone brings something up, he can be like,
[01:32:06] brings something up, he can be like, "They apologized to me." And um you were
[01:32:09] "They apologized to me." And um you were offering a careful apology, but it's
[01:32:11] offering a careful apology, but it's obviously not going to be used that way.
[01:32:12] obviously not going to be used that way. At least that's my opinion. So this this
[01:32:15] At least that's my opinion. So this this moment is grievous. And to compare it to
[01:32:18] moment is grievous. And to compare it to the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
[01:32:21] the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit um is
[01:32:24] um is uh is wild. It's just wild. And I it
[01:32:26] uh is wild. It's just wild. And I it would be jarring to anybody to have your
[01:32:28] would be jarring to anybody to have your spiritual leader do that to you.
[01:32:30] spiritual leader do that to you. >> Yeah. it and the the conversation itself
[01:32:35] >> Yeah. it and the the conversation itself um I didn't realize
[01:32:38] um I didn't realize would be used the way it has come to be
[01:32:41] would be used the way it has come to be used the the apology um in you know and
[01:32:44] used the the apology um in you know and I guess we can speak to that later but
[01:32:46] I guess we can speak to that later but as the conversation ended the phone call
[01:32:48] as the conversation ended the phone call ended
[01:32:49] ended >> um we heard Gary say to Katherine at the
[01:32:52] >> um we heard Gary say to Katherine at the end so can you hide that Facebook post
[01:32:56] end so can you hide that Facebook post and um Katherine said yes Uh I had taken
[01:33:01] and um Katherine said yes Uh I had taken a screenshot of that post but it was
[01:33:05] a screenshot of that post but it was hidden
[01:33:06] hidden >> and for us a few weeks honestly passed
[01:33:10] >> and for us a few weeks honestly passed and it it felt confusing. It kind of in
[01:33:12] and it it felt confusing. It kind of in some ways went cold.
[01:33:20] That was until
[01:33:23] That was until a minister named Ben Fitzgerald came and
[01:33:26] a minister named Ben Fitzgerald came and spoke at our church and it was my job to
[01:33:29] spoke at our church and it was my job to drive him around for hours. While we
[01:33:32] drive him around for hours. While we were driving, he told me that he had
[01:33:35] were driving, he told me that he had just exposed two different people for
[01:33:38] just exposed two different people for data mining. Uh someone was an intern at
[01:33:40] data mining. Uh someone was an intern at Bethl and another person in Darwin. And
[01:33:44] Bethl and another person in Darwin. And um they repented with tears, cried
[01:33:47] um they repented with tears, cried because he basically brought the
[01:33:49] because he basically brought the information to them. And remember I said
[01:33:51] information to them. And remember I said I had no idea that this had ever
[01:33:53] I had no idea that this had ever happened. To me it was like it was just
[01:33:55] happened. To me it was like it was just absolutely shocking. I was like I didn't
[01:33:57] absolutely shocking. I was like I didn't realize anyone had ever done this in the
[01:33:59] realize anyone had ever done this in the like. So, when he said this, I was I I
[01:34:03] like. So, when he said this, I was I I basically obviously told him about Gary
[01:34:05] basically obviously told him about Gary um because it Yeah, I mean, it's pretty
[01:34:08] um because it Yeah, I mean, it's pretty self-explanatory. And it turns out he
[01:34:11] self-explanatory. And it turns out he and a number of other pastors were
[01:34:13] and a number of other pastors were already suspicious um of Gary. Hey guys,
[01:34:17] already suspicious um of Gary. Hey guys, editor Mike here. And it's important
[01:34:18] editor Mike here. And it's important that I point out real quick at this
[01:34:20] that I point out real quick at this moment in the video that this
[01:34:22] moment in the video that this demonstrates that Bethl leadership in
[01:34:25] demonstrates that Bethl leadership in Reading, California, like Bill Johnson,
[01:34:27] Reading, California, like Bill Johnson, those guys, uh, they were well aware
[01:34:28] those guys, uh, they were well aware that people were using Facebook to fake
[01:34:30] that people were using Facebook to fake prophecy back in 2016. If you listen to
[01:34:32] prophecy back in 2016. If you listen to this video, that's not what this video
[01:34:34] this video, that's not what this video is necessarily focused on, but it's
[01:34:36] is necessarily focused on, but it's definitely an important piece of
[01:34:37] definitely an important piece of evidence that comes out of this video.
[01:34:39] evidence that comes out of this video. They were not unaware of this or of how
[01:34:41] They were not unaware of this or of how to confirm it. Yet Gary Morgan and Shawn
[01:34:45] to confirm it. Yet Gary Morgan and Shawn BS both continued
[01:34:47] BS both continued >> and Ben took it very seriously. So he
[01:34:50] >> and Ben took it very seriously. So he looked into the different bits of
[01:34:52] looked into the different bits of evidence, the screenshot that we had
[01:34:54] evidence, the screenshot that we had along with the words and very quickly
[01:34:57] along with the words and very quickly came deeply concerned about this. We
[01:35:00] came deeply concerned about this. We again were reprimanded for even
[01:35:02] again were reprimanded for even mentioning it to Ben and were asked to
[01:35:05] mentioning it to Ben and were asked to not say I'm not say anything to anyone
[01:35:09] not say I'm not say anything to anyone after that. Um we very strongly
[01:35:13] after that. Um we very strongly told that um Haley would have times when
[01:35:15] told that um Haley would have times when she wanted to tell, you know, even her
[01:35:19] she wanted to tell, you know, even her best friends or close friends and and
[01:35:21] best friends or close friends and and she couldn't. Um
[01:35:22] she couldn't. Um >> yeah, and that was hard not being able
[01:35:24] >> yeah, and that was hard not being able to tell anyone. Just knowing that we
[01:35:26] to tell anyone. Just knowing that we were told not to.
[01:35:28] were told not to. >> Even people who had had these words,
[01:35:29] >> Even people who had had these words, there were moments where Haley would
[01:35:31] there were moments where Haley would burst out crying talking to someone who
[01:35:33] burst out crying talking to someone who had a word from Gary and couldn't even
[01:35:35] had a word from Gary and couldn't even tell the person. So horrible time. But
[01:35:37] tell the person. So horrible time. But um Ben came on board and he he kind of
[01:35:42] um Ben came on board and he he kind of came to this conclusion that it kind of
[01:35:44] came to this conclusion that it kind of hangs on the Sarah email. Either a real
[01:35:48] hangs on the Sarah email. Either a real Sarah comes forward and Gary's
[01:35:50] Sarah comes forward and Gary's vindicated or this person doesn't seem
[01:35:53] vindicated or this person doesn't seem to exist and it's even worse because it
[01:35:55] to exist and it's even worse because it looks like perhaps Gary or someone else
[01:35:58] looks like perhaps Gary or someone else could be behind this. So that was his
[01:36:01] could be behind this. So that was his conclusion. Ben got very involved
[01:36:03] conclusion. Ben got very involved helping and over a process of a few
[01:36:06] helping and over a process of a few weeks we made some shocking discoveries.
[01:36:09] weeks we made some shocking discoveries. Uh we found out that
[01:36:12] Uh we found out that um well first of all Sarah the supposed
[01:36:16] um well first of all Sarah the supposed Sarah in the email was responding when
[01:36:19] Sarah in the email was responding when we asked can you I believe Ben did can
[01:36:21] we asked can you I believe Ben did can you come forward we just need to confirm
[01:36:23] you come forward we just need to confirm your who you are and the person said I'm
[01:36:27] your who you are and the person said I'm going to
[01:36:28] going to >> Cambodia
[01:36:28] >> Cambodia >> Cambodia for 6 months I won't be
[01:36:30] >> Cambodia for 6 months I won't be available so Ben obviously became more
[01:36:33] available so Ben obviously became more suspicious they sent what's called a
[01:36:35] suspicious they sent what's called a banana tracker in the email and asked
[01:36:37] banana tracker in the email and asked are you now in um Cambodia and they said
[01:36:41] are you now in um Cambodia and they said yes, I'm in Cambodia with was it the Red
[01:36:43] yes, I'm in Cambodia with was it the Red Cross or with the Red Cross?
[01:36:45] Cross or with the Red Cross? >> Sarah, I know that when she first
[01:36:47] >> Sarah, I know that when she first emailed she expressed interest in going
[01:36:49] emailed she expressed interest in going to Gary's school,
[01:36:51] to Gary's school, >> uh which is also in Australia.
[01:36:53] >> uh which is also in Australia. >> Um so now he's got to relocate Well,
[01:36:55] >> Um so now he's got to relocate Well, this is this is what I'm going to
[01:36:57] this is this is what I'm going to conclude. He's got to relocate her to
[01:36:59] conclude. He's got to relocate her to some far away location because she can't
[01:37:01] some far away location because she can't ever talk to anybody. She can't ever
[01:37:03] ever talk to anybody. She can't ever meet anybody if she doesn't exist,
[01:37:05] meet anybody if she doesn't exist, >> right? And for for us, um, Ben sent
[01:37:10] >> right? And for for us, um, Ben sent what's called a banana tracker in the
[01:37:12] what's called a banana tracker in the email with a friend and it showed that
[01:37:14] email with a friend and it showed that the person was still in Australia while
[01:37:16] the person was still in Australia while claiming to be in Cambodia.
[01:37:18] claiming to be in Cambodia. >> We were then able to follow up with the
[01:37:20] >> We were then able to follow up with the Red Cross and there was no such serity
[01:37:23] Red Cross and there was no such serity at the at with the Red Cross on any
[01:37:25] at the at with the Red Cross on any missions trip in Cambodia. Uh so
[01:37:28] missions trip in Cambodia. Uh so obviously became more and more
[01:37:29] obviously became more and more suspicious and then um Haley and I
[01:37:33] suspicious and then um Haley and I actually worked with a private
[01:37:35] actually worked with a private investigator locally who came to the
[01:37:37] investigator locally who came to the conclusion that the surname Lamberty is
[01:37:39] conclusion that the surname Lamberty is extremely rare and there does not seem
[01:37:42] extremely rare and there does not seem to be an Australian with the name Sarah
[01:37:44] to be an Australian with the name Sarah Lamberty in all of Australia at the time
[01:37:46] Lamberty in all of Australia at the time was the conclusion that he came to. Uh,
[01:37:49] was the conclusion that he came to. Uh, and so Ben actually confronted Gary with
[01:37:52] and so Ben actually confronted Gary with this information and um and let him know
[01:37:55] this information and um and let him know about this wanting him to repent because
[01:37:57] about this wanting him to repent because the other people he had gone to had in
[01:37:59] the other people he had gone to had in fact repented. Gary uh refused to repent
[01:38:03] fact repented. Gary uh refused to repent and I believe Ben told him that he would
[01:38:06] and I believe Ben told him that he would be looking into the email more. Um, and
[01:38:10] be looking into the email more. Um, and so that which he planned to actually
[01:38:12] so that which he planned to actually Ben's I guess hypothesis was when you
[01:38:15] Ben's I guess hypothesis was when you create an email address usually it has a
[01:38:16] create an email address usually it has a time that it was created. if it was
[01:38:18] time that it was created. if it was created on the same date that the events
[01:38:21] created on the same date that the events happened, it was almost certainly made
[01:38:23] happened, it was almost certainly made then or you might even be able to find
[01:38:24] then or you might even be able to find out who owns the domain, etc. So, he
[01:38:28] out who owns the domain, etc. So, he told Gary he was planning to do that,
[01:38:29] told Gary he was planning to do that, hoping Gary would repent. Um, but the he
[01:38:33] hoping Gary would repent. Um, but the he did not and a Google expert with Ben
[01:38:37] did not and a Google expert with Ben found out that that exact day the serial
[01:38:39] found out that that exact day the serial limit email was deleted. And not only
[01:38:43] limit email was deleted. And not only was it deleted, but when an email was
[01:38:45] was it deleted, but when an email was deleted,
[01:38:46] deleted, >> an email account, not not just an email,
[01:38:48] >> an email account, not not just an email, right? The whole account was wiped.
[01:38:50] right? The whole account was wiped. >> Correct. The whole account wiped. And
[01:38:52] >> Correct. The whole account wiped. And what happens is you see a screenshot
[01:38:54] what happens is you see a screenshot with um zero days since this was
[01:38:57] with um zero days since this was deleted. And you can see a recovery
[01:38:58] deleted. And you can see a recovery email. So Ben with the help of this um
[01:39:02] email. So Ben with the help of this um Google expert out of interest put a few
[01:39:05] Google expert out of interest put a few recovery few emails in for the recovery
[01:39:08] recovery few emails in for the recovery email. None of them worked until they
[01:39:10] email. None of them worked until they put Gary's email in and it confirmed and
[01:39:13] put Gary's email in and it confirmed and worked as the recovery email. So
[01:39:16] worked as the recovery email. So obviously at this point Ben was more
[01:39:19] obviously at this point Ben was more than convinced that um Gary had been
[01:39:22] than convinced that um Gary had been doing this that he had been behind um
[01:39:25] doing this that he had been behind um the events the whole time. And so Ben
[01:39:28] the events the whole time. And so Ben along with us put a document together uh
[01:39:31] along with us put a document together uh to clearly make the case here. Uh it was
[01:39:34] to clearly make the case here. Uh it was called the sequence of events according
[01:39:35] called the sequence of events according to Gary I believe. Um, I didn't know
[01:39:37] to Gary I believe. Um, I didn't know what a dossier was back then, but we put
[01:39:39] what a dossier was back then, but we put the the document together, presented it
[01:39:42] the the document together, presented it um to to Gary's board, to Katherine.
[01:39:46] um to to Gary's board, to Katherine. >> Editor Mike here. I just wanted to point
[01:39:48] >> Editor Mike here. I just wanted to point out that we actually asked Gary and his
[01:39:50] out that we actually asked Gary and his guys about this email. And in our
[01:39:52] guys about this email. And in our confrontation, they were never able to
[01:39:54] confrontation, they were never able to offer anything remotely resembling a
[01:39:56] offer anything remotely resembling a satisfactory answer. This is just the
[01:39:59] satisfactory answer. This is just the ultimate smoking gun.
[01:40:00] ultimate smoking gun. >> Explain. Can I just ask how do you
[01:40:02] >> Explain. Can I just ask how do you explain um Sarah and the 10th of
[01:40:07] explain um Sarah and the 10th of >> June?
[01:40:07] >> June? >> June being called out, no other email
[01:40:10] >> June being called out, no other email existing to prove that there is a Sarah
[01:40:12] existing to prove that there is a Sarah Lamberty and Gary calling out the exact
[01:40:16] Lamberty and Gary calling out the exact name date of a Facebook page. It only
[01:40:20] name date of a Facebook page. It only had about 12 comments on there. I I just
[01:40:22] had about 12 comments on there. I I just How How do you explain that?
[01:40:24] How How do you explain that? >> Well, I'm in a fortunate position that I
[01:40:27] >> Well, I'm in a fortunate position that I don't really need to explain it,
[01:40:28] don't really need to explain it, Nathaniel. you realize the email's
[01:40:30] Nathaniel. you realize the email's deleted. Ben then goes to Gary and says,
[01:40:34] deleted. Ben then goes to Gary and says, you know, what's going on here?
[01:40:36] you know, what's going on here? Somewhere around that time. Gary
[01:40:39] Somewhere around that time. Gary mentions that uh he's under some sort of
[01:40:41] mentions that uh he's under some sort of attack himself. There was a bunch of uh
[01:40:44] attack himself. There was a bunch of uh you know, he said he's getting like
[01:40:46] you know, he said he's getting like death threats or he's getting all these
[01:40:47] death threats or he's getting all these like personal threats and Ben said, "Oh,
[01:40:50] like personal threats and Ben said, "Oh, can you can you screenshot those? Can I
[01:40:53] can you can you screenshot those? Can I can I read those threats?" And then he
[01:40:55] can I read those threats?" And then he said, "Everything's been deleted. My
[01:40:57] said, "Everything's been deleted. My account was hacked.
[01:40:59] account was hacked. his whole account gone. So Gary now is
[01:41:02] his whole account gone. So Gary now is talking about how he is being targeted.
[01:41:05] talking about how he is being targeted. His accounts hacked. His emails are
[01:41:07] His accounts hacked. His emails are deleted. He talks about we have the I've
[01:41:09] deleted. He talks about we have the I've seen this. We've seen where he talks
[01:41:11] seen this. We've seen where he talks about his um uh photos of his kid being
[01:41:16] about his um uh photos of his kid being taken. His prophetic notes have have
[01:41:18] taken. His prophetic notes have have been deleted as well. Uh which which
[01:41:20] been deleted as well. Uh which which would potentially be evidence that his
[01:41:22] would potentially be evidence that his notes are full of Facebook information.
[01:41:24] notes are full of Facebook information. Um and all that stuff is gone. And so
[01:41:27] Um and all that stuff is gone. And so all the sequence of events is so damning
[01:41:31] all the sequence of events is so damning that I don't know how any human being on
[01:41:34] that I don't know how any human being on earth can doubt what exactly is going on
[01:41:37] earth can doubt what exactly is going on here. I I don't I cannot conceive of how
[01:41:40] here. I I don't I cannot conceive of how anybody can you had enough when you had
[01:41:43] anybody can you had enough when you had all these words that were all Facebook
[01:41:45] all these words that were all Facebook and there were all people who clicked
[01:41:47] and there were all people who clicked attending and one person who said,
[01:41:48] attending and one person who said, "Yeah, he asked my name in the hallway
[01:41:49] "Yeah, he asked my name in the hallway or whatever." Then you have the the
[01:41:52] or whatever." Then you have the the other words you look up and you're like,
[01:41:53] other words you look up and you're like, "Oh, those are also similarly
[01:41:55] "Oh, those are also similarly available." Then you have, oh, he
[01:41:57] available." Then you have, oh, he prophesies the leadership when when
[01:41:58] prophesies the leadership when when there's nobody available online. And
[01:42:01] there's nobody available online. And then you've got the fake Facebook page
[01:42:03] then you've got the fake Facebook page where he calls it out. Then you have the
[01:42:05] where he calls it out. Then you have the email that goes gets deleted. And it
[01:42:07] email that goes gets deleted. And it also comes in right after he gets
[01:42:09] also comes in right after he gets confronted. And then the recovery of the
[01:42:11] confronted. And then the recovery of the email is for his own email account. His
[01:42:15] email is for his own email account. His own uh what was well, I'm sorry, I won't
[01:42:16] own uh what was well, I'm sorry, I won't mention the name of the email account. I
[01:42:18] mention the name of the email account. I know it, but I won't say it. But it's
[01:42:20] know it, but I won't say it. But it's it's for his thing that he uses for all
[01:42:22] it's for his thing that he uses for all kinds of stuff. Um, then he is now
[01:42:26] kinds of stuff. Um, then he is now saying there's a plot there's a there's
[01:42:30] saying there's a plot there's a there's a plot against me. That's that's the
[01:42:32] a plot against me. That's that's the pivot that he's got left now. Editor
[01:42:34] pivot that he's got left now. Editor Mike here. What you guys are about to
[01:42:36] Mike here. What you guys are about to hear is Gary Morgan actually in our
[01:42:38] hear is Gary Morgan actually in our meeting, in our confrontation, punting
[01:42:40] meeting, in our confrontation, punting to conspiracy theory that he was
[01:42:42] to conspiracy theory that he was targeted, that some elaborate,
[01:42:46] targeted, that some elaborate, weirdly designed plot against him
[01:42:48] weirdly designed plot against him involved making a fake email account
[01:42:50] involved making a fake email account that would defend him, only to be
[01:42:52] that would defend him, only to be discovered months later by Ben
[01:42:53] discovered months later by Ben Fitzgerald, who just happened to dig
[01:42:56] Fitzgerald, who just happened to dig deep into that email. And man, the whole
[01:42:59] deep into that email. And man, the whole thing is just wild. And I think this is
[01:43:01] thing is just wild. And I think this is basically a backwards admission of
[01:43:04] basically a backwards admission of guilt. But what if you wouldn't mind
[01:43:07] guilt. But what if you wouldn't mind share the three reasons that you think
[01:43:09] share the three reasons that you think it was associated with him?
[01:43:11] it was associated with him? >> Yeah, sure.
[01:43:17] So
[01:43:18] So reason one when um Ben and Joel not
[01:43:22] reason one when um Ben and Joel not myself started to um when Ben was
[01:43:26] myself started to um when Ben was concerned about this Haley had made the
[01:43:28] concerned about this Haley had made the Facebook page but when Ben was concerned
[01:43:30] Facebook page but when Ben was concerned he said that the email will either show
[01:43:34] he said that the email will either show that she's innocent uh sorry that Gary's
[01:43:37] that she's innocent uh sorry that Gary's innocent or um if a real Sarah Lamity
[01:43:39] innocent or um if a real Sarah Lamity comes forward it was as simple as that
[01:43:41] comes forward it was as simple as that with a birth date um then real person
[01:43:44] with a birth date um then real person exists.
[01:43:45] exists. So that was the main thing he wanted to
[01:43:46] So that was the main thing he wanted to do with Joel. Uh so the three reasons,
[01:43:48] do with Joel. Uh so the three reasons, one, uh Sarah Lamperty, the so-called
[01:43:51] one, uh Sarah Lamperty, the so-called Sarah Lampy, consistently lied about
[01:43:53] Sarah Lampy, consistently lied about their location. Um they said that they
[01:43:56] their location. Um they said that they were um in on a missions trip
[01:43:59] were um in on a missions trip >> in Cambodia with the Red Cross
[01:44:02] >> in Cambodia with the Red Cross >> when they were actually in Australia
[01:44:04] >> when they were actually in Australia um and consistently lied about that.
[01:44:08] um and consistently lied about that. Reason two, Lamberty is an
[01:44:11] Reason two, Lamberty is an extraordinarily rare surname. Um, we
[01:44:14] extraordinarily rare surname. Um, we know this because at the time that Ben
[01:44:16] know this because at the time that Ben was concerned, we uh looked into the
[01:44:19] was concerned, we uh looked into the name Sarah Lambert and had a private
[01:44:21] name Sarah Lambert and had a private investigator, which this has been made
[01:44:22] investigator, which this has been made known to everyone. This is not new
[01:44:24] known to everyone. This is not new information. So, the the private
[01:44:26] information. So, the the private investigator said very clearly, forensic
[01:44:27] investigator said very clearly, forensic investigator, there does not seem to be
[01:44:29] investigator, there does not seem to be a Sarah Lamberty on the record in
[01:44:31] a Sarah Lamberty on the record in Australia. So, the person reason two,
[01:44:33] Australia. So, the person reason two, the person doesn't seem to exist. Not
[01:44:35] the person doesn't seem to exist. Not only that, the person is not on the
[01:44:38] only that, the person is not on the record of going to um this missions trip
[01:44:41] record of going to um this missions trip with the Red Cross. That's something you
[01:44:43] with the Red Cross. That's something you can look at. They said, "I'm I've gone
[01:44:45] can look at. They said, "I'm I've gone to Cambodia." Keep in mind, this person
[01:44:48] to Cambodia." Keep in mind, this person supposedly emailed Gary and emailed
[01:44:50] supposedly emailed Gary and emailed Glory City Church, so excited about this
[01:44:52] Glory City Church, so excited about this word a few weeks later, not willing to
[01:44:54] word a few weeks later, not willing to talk about it, they said they're going
[01:44:56] talk about it, they said they're going on a missions trip for 6 months. And um
[01:44:59] on a missions trip for 6 months. And um we looked up with the Red Cross if had
[01:45:02] we looked up with the Red Cross if had gone to Cambodia. They did not. So
[01:45:05] gone to Cambodia. They did not. So reason two, it doesn't see that a serial
[01:45:08] reason two, it doesn't see that a serial empty exists. And just to make things
[01:45:10] empty exists. And just to make things worse, Ben brought this to my attention.
[01:45:12] worse, Ben brought this to my attention. There seemed to be um that Lamberty was
[01:45:15] There seemed to be um that Lamberty was a very rare name. And he realized, oh,
[01:45:18] a very rare name. And he realized, oh, interesting. I know someone with the
[01:45:20] interesting. I know someone with the surname Lamberty. I'll ask them if they
[01:45:22] surname Lamberty. I'll ask them if they know uh Asera. This person's name, I
[01:45:25] know uh Asera. This person's name, I believe Ben could tell us who it is, but
[01:45:27] believe Ben could tell us who it is, but they had the surname Lambert was the
[01:45:29] they had the surname Lambert was the only person he knew. He asked if they
[01:45:31] only person he knew. He asked if they knew of Asera. They did not. Then Ben
[01:45:34] knew of Asera. They did not. Then Ben found out this person is in Gary's
[01:45:36] found out this person is in Gary's prophetic school. So we believe that's a
[01:45:39] prophetic school. So we believe that's a very odd coincidence since the name
[01:45:41] very odd coincidence since the name Lamberte is one in 1.9
[01:45:45] Lamberte is one in 1.9 million chance of having that name.
[01:45:46] million chance of having that name. There's roughly about 20 potentially in
[01:45:49] There's roughly about 20 potentially in Australia with that surname.
[01:45:50] Australia with that surname. >> When Haley made the Facebook page
[01:45:54] >> When Haley made the Facebook page >> when I when I created uh this Sarah on
[01:45:58] >> when I when I created uh this Sarah on Facebook, I made the name the last name
[01:46:01] Facebook, I made the name the last name Wildman just thinking of a last name of
[01:46:05] Wildman just thinking of a last name of people that went to my parents' church.
[01:46:07] people that went to my parents' church. So
[01:46:07] So >> they're friends.
[01:46:09] >> they're friends. >> That was how I came up with it.
[01:46:10] >> That was how I came up with it. >> So if you're in a rush, one could likely
[01:46:13] >> So if you're in a rush, one could likely conclude that you would use a name
[01:46:14] conclude that you would use a name you're familiar with. Again, not
[01:46:16] you're familiar with. Again, not necessarily a smoking gun. But the third
[01:46:18] necessarily a smoking gun. But the third reason was that other reason we
[01:46:20] reason was that other reason we mentioned that it strongly appeared
[01:46:21] mentioned that it strongly appeared based on Ben, not myself, and what he
[01:46:24] based on Ben, not myself, and what he did with a a Google expert after he put
[01:46:27] did with a a Google expert after he put a post out and said, "Can someone help
[01:46:29] a post out and said, "Can someone help me with this?" The Sarah email got
[01:46:32] me with this?" The Sarah email got deleted at exactly that same time. It
[01:46:34] deleted at exactly that same time. It said 0 days ago this email was deleted.
[01:46:37] said 0 days ago this email was deleted. The recovery email there you could put
[01:46:40] The recovery email there you could put multiple emails in of which it rejected.
[01:46:42] multiple emails in of which it rejected. Um Ben did this um asked me to have a
[01:46:45] Um Ben did this um asked me to have a quick look. I did the same thing with
[01:46:47] quick look. I did the same thing with the help of this Google expert. The only
[01:46:49] the help of this Google expert. The only email that worked was Gary's. The only
[01:46:52] email that worked was Gary's. The only reason I have said that that is not
[01:46:53] reason I have said that that is not unequivocal is cuz to do that would be
[01:46:56] unequivocal is cuz to do that would be illegal. I've never said that that in
[01:46:57] illegal. I've never said that that in and of itself is a smoking gun. But I
[01:46:59] and of itself is a smoking gun. But I sure believe that those three points are
[01:47:01] sure believe that those three points are enough to cast extraordinary doubt on
[01:47:04] enough to cast extraordinary doubt on the existence of a Sarah Lamity. And
[01:47:06] the existence of a Sarah Lamity. And therefore, we're back to a fake Facebook
[01:47:08] therefore, we're back to a fake Facebook page has been called out the name. And
[01:47:11] page has been called out the name. And for us, we can't look past that. That it
[01:47:13] for us, we can't look past that. That it to us that may not be able to be
[01:47:16] to us that may not be able to be explained by you guys, but for us, that
[01:47:19] explained by you guys, but for us, that is all we decided we would need to see
[01:47:20] is all we decided we would need to see to know that this was happening. Haley
[01:47:22] to know that this was happening. Haley put that out as
[01:47:24] put that out as >> like as a fleece for God
[01:47:28] >> like as a fleece for God and just made it and decided to trust
[01:47:29] and just made it and decided to trust God to reveal whether it was happening
[01:47:32] God to reveal whether it was happening >> and I was happy
[01:47:34] >> and I was happy >> and I was happy to move on. Um when when
[01:47:36] >> and I was happy to move on. Um when when we
[01:47:37] we >> Yes, please go.
[01:47:38] >> Yes, please go. >> Add just one more oddity about that uh
[01:47:41] >> Add just one more oddity about that uh that time and this email uh being
[01:47:43] that time and this email uh being deleted at the same time uh you got
[01:47:47] deleted at the same time uh you got hacked was it Gary and you lost
[01:47:49] hacked was it Gary and you lost everything?
[01:47:51] everything? Yeah, my and I'm going to screenshot it
[01:47:53] Yeah, my and I'm going to screenshot it on the 18th of at 3 something in the
[01:47:56] on the 18th of at 3 something in the morning. My Gmail was compromised and
[01:48:00] morning. My Gmail was compromised and and accessed and I've got out
[01:48:03] and accessed and I've got out screenshots of that. So, it was on the
[01:48:06] screenshots of that. So, it was on the 19th like um Nathaniel just said that
[01:48:09] 19th like um Nathaniel just said that everything ling got deleted. And so, um
[01:48:13] everything ling got deleted. And so, um yeah, my my stuff was accessed and
[01:48:15] yeah, my my stuff was accessed and hacked. And that's again a reason I said
[01:48:18] hacked. And that's again a reason I said to Pete, we we need to get these devices
[01:48:21] to Pete, we we need to get these devices uh forensically looked at because
[01:48:23] uh forensically looked at because there's nefarious things going on and
[01:48:26] there's nefarious things going on and everything is trying to be set up
[01:48:28] everything is trying to be set up against me in this. And and also as
[01:48:32] against me in this. And and also as well, it's it's no um it's no secret
[01:48:36] well, it's it's no um it's no secret that hacking was being used by uh those
[01:48:41] that hacking was being used by uh those involved.
[01:48:42] involved. >> Wait, wait, wait. Let's slow down. Are
[01:48:44] >> Wait, wait, wait. Let's slow down. Are you suggesting that somebody set you up?
[01:48:49] That's what I was trying to find out
[01:48:50] That's what I was trying to find out like.
[01:48:51] like. >> Yeah. But what do you what do you think
[01:48:53] >> Yeah. But what do you what do you think happened? You think you said nefarious
[01:48:55] happened? You think you said nefarious stuff and you think that someone set up
[01:48:58] stuff and you think that someone set up the Sarah Lamberty email
[01:49:01] the Sarah Lamberty email uh in and connected it to you after
[01:49:03] uh in and connected it to you after hacking your account in order to make it
[01:49:05] hacking your account in order to make it look like you were guilty.
[01:49:07] look like you were guilty. >> Is that a hypothesis?
[01:49:10] >> Is that a hypothesis? >> Absolutely. Because again being at
[01:49:11] >> Absolutely. Because again being at dinner when this thing was happened it's
[01:49:15] dinner when this thing was happened it's I have no explanation on how
[01:49:18] I have no explanation on how >> that email could be sent for me if I was
[01:49:21] >> that email could be sent for me if I was >> but let me let me lean on this a little
[01:49:22] >> but let me let me lean on this a little bit if we can if your your your theory
[01:49:24] bit if we can if your your your theory is there's a there's a possibility that
[01:49:26] is there's a there's a possibility that somebody set up the Sarah Lamberty email
[01:49:29] somebody set up the Sarah Lamberty email uh as part of an attempt to make it look
[01:49:32] uh as part of an attempt to make it look like you were trying to cover your
[01:49:34] like you were trying to cover your tracks on something.
[01:49:36] tracks on something. >> Yeah.
[01:49:37] >> Yeah. >> Okay. So then that would also imply that
[01:49:41] >> Okay. So then that would also imply that you think that there there is an actual
[01:49:43] you think that there there is an actual connection
[01:49:45] connection that the Sarah Lambert email is is a
[01:49:46] that the Sarah Lambert email is is a fake person who's pretending to defend
[01:49:48] fake person who's pretending to defend you initially that that was the initial
[01:49:50] you initially that that was the initial thing is Sarah Lambert's defending you
[01:49:52] thing is Sarah Lambert's defending you and that then the person who set this up
[01:49:54] and that then the person who set this up was counting on them doing all this work
[01:49:57] was counting on them doing all this work talking to an investigator just to find
[01:50:00] talking to an investigator just to find out that the email was somehow connected
[01:50:01] out that the email was somehow connected with you that this was all part because
[01:50:03] with you that this was all part because the only people that could be in on this
[01:50:04] the only people that could be in on this would be the ones on this call that
[01:50:06] would be the ones on this call that you're saying that they right?
[01:50:09] you're saying that they right? Like, play it out. What does this look
[01:50:10] Like, play it out. What does this look like? It sounds like you're saying
[01:50:12] like? It sounds like you're saying either I'm guilty or I was set up. And I
[01:50:14] either I'm guilty or I was set up. And I think that one of those is a much
[01:50:15] think that one of those is a much simpler explanation.
[01:50:21] >> Sorry, you might drop there. I didn't
[01:50:22] >> Sorry, you might drop there. I didn't get the last part you said.
[01:50:24] get the last part you said. >> Sorry. But if they if they were if
[01:50:26] >> Sorry. But if they if they were if someone was setting you up
[01:50:29] someone was setting you up at this stage in the game, who's doing
[01:50:32] at this stage in the game, who's doing it? Nobody's gunning for you yet.
[01:50:34] it? Nobody's gunning for you yet. >> They're just like hoping it's not true.
[01:50:37] >> They're just like hoping it's not true. find out.
[01:50:39] find out. >> Gary, come on, dude. You're such a liar,
[01:50:41] >> Gary, come on, dude. You're such a liar, man. It's so ridiculous. It is It is
[01:50:45] man. It's so ridiculous. It is It is atrocious.
[01:50:47] atrocious. I don't know how you guys can't
[01:50:50] I don't know how you guys can't Peter Allen.
[01:50:52] Peter Allen. You You should be so embarrassed
[01:50:56] You You should be so embarrassed when when you had a chance to out this
[01:50:58] when when you had a chance to out this guy as blaspheming the name of Christ,
[01:51:00] guy as blaspheming the name of Christ, as abusing the people of God.
[01:51:03] as abusing the people of God. >> Yes. And obviously the information was
[01:51:08] >> Yes. And obviously the information was compelling enough that uh Catherine
[01:51:11] compelling enough that uh Catherine along with several other leaders did
[01:51:13] along with several other leaders did come to the conclusion that Gary is they
[01:51:16] come to the conclusion that Gary is they they believed Gary was guilty of data
[01:51:18] they believed Gary was guilty of data mining. Um and I mean I don't know how
[01:51:22] mining. Um and I mean I don't know how to talk about the there was an apology.
[01:51:25] to talk about the there was an apology. Um I don't know if you want to jump in
[01:51:27] Um I don't know if you want to jump in at all there Chris. I don't really know
[01:51:29] at all there Chris. I don't really know how to cover that information but
[01:51:30] how to cover that information but >> editor Mike here. This is a tricky
[01:51:32] >> editor Mike here. This is a tricky subject actually. Um, so Catherine had
[01:51:35] subject actually. Um, so Catherine had really apologized to them profusely and
[01:51:38] really apologized to them profusely and and said she believed them, but
[01:51:40] and said she believed them, but unfortunately it was a little bit later
[01:51:42] unfortunately it was a little bit later where she actually sent an email over to
[01:51:45] where she actually sent an email over to um Gary's guys or or to Gary, I don't
[01:51:47] um Gary's guys or or to Gary, I don't know. And Allan read that email during
[01:51:50] know. And Allan read that email during our meeting and the confrontation call,
[01:51:51] our meeting and the confrontation call, you can hear this if you listen in. It
[01:51:53] you can hear this if you listen in. It was really confusing because in that
[01:51:54] was really confusing because in that email she kind of threw him under the
[01:51:56] email she kind of threw him under the bus and made it look like Nathaniel was
[01:51:57] bus and made it look like Nathaniel was wrong and at fault here. And it was
[01:52:01] wrong and at fault here. And it was really the ammo they needed to discount
[01:52:03] really the ammo they needed to discount him. And so if you listen to the
[01:52:06] him. And so if you listen to the confrontation call at the end of this
[01:52:07] confrontation call at the end of this video, the last part of the video there,
[01:52:09] video, the last part of the video there, then you'll hear where this kind of
[01:52:10] then you'll hear where this kind of threw them off. They were just, it just
[01:52:11] threw them off. They were just, it just took them a while. It was only after the
[01:52:13] took them a while. It was only after the call, I think, that it started to sink
[01:52:14] call, I think, that it started to sink in. I think she really did send that
[01:52:16] in. I think she really did send that when they're saying she did. So, um,
[01:52:19] when they're saying she did. So, um, that's why some of this is a little bit
[01:52:21] that's why some of this is a little bit confusing, and I just wanted to explain
[01:52:22] confusing, and I just wanted to explain it as briefly as I could. She
[01:52:24] it as briefly as I could. She apologized, but later sent an email, uh,
[01:52:27] apologized, but later sent an email, uh, that was the opposite to Gary's guys or
[01:52:31] that was the opposite to Gary's guys or to Gary, and that was used to discount
[01:52:33] to Gary, and that was used to discount Nathaniel for it seems like years.
[01:52:36] Nathaniel for it seems like years. >> There was an apology given to us from
[01:52:38] >> There was an apology given to us from Catherine. um at the time she believed
[01:52:41] Catherine. um at the time she believed that I guess I'll just say she believed
[01:52:44] that I guess I'll just say she believed that her believing the best in Gary had
[01:52:46] that her believing the best in Gary had gotten in the way of um her believing
[01:52:48] gotten in the way of um her believing the truth. She did apologize um saying
[01:52:50] the truth. She did apologize um saying that we were um that she had said we
[01:52:54] that we were um that she had said we were wrong when we were right. She
[01:52:55] were wrong when we were right. She believed
[01:52:57] believed um that she had been wrong and that uh
[01:52:59] um that she had been wrong and that uh Ben as well it was good that he was
[01:53:02] Ben as well it was good that he was involved. There were several things
[01:53:03] involved. There were several things there. um she didn't want to go public,
[01:53:06] there. um she didn't want to go public, but she did come to that conclusion. Uh
[01:53:10] but she did come to that conclusion. Uh there's been things that have happened
[01:53:11] there's been things that have happened since
[01:53:14] since uh with with the apology. I guess I
[01:53:15] uh with with the apology. I guess I could move if you don't want to say
[01:53:16] could move if you don't want to say anything there, Chris, I can move on to
[01:53:18] anything there, Chris, I can move on to the next part of the story, but
[01:53:20] the next part of the story, but >> yeah. No, I mean we just during that
[01:53:22] >> yeah. No, I mean we just during that phone call
[01:53:25] phone call heard an email that uh was sent that uh
[01:53:30] heard an email that uh was sent that uh it seemed it seemed on the face of it to
[01:53:33] it seemed it seemed on the face of it to say that or to suggest that Nathaniel
[01:53:36] say that or to suggest that Nathaniel this is 2 months later was wrong uh with
[01:53:39] this is 2 months later was wrong uh with everything he did and he was wrong to
[01:53:40] everything he did and he was wrong to involve Ben and he was wrong to do this
[01:53:42] involve Ben and he was wrong to do this and that. uh that Nathaniel had not said
[01:53:46] and that. uh that Nathaniel had not said any of those words
[01:53:49] any of those words which then called into question well
[01:53:51] which then called into question well what what what was what was apologized
[01:53:55] what what what was what was apologized for then if if you say
[01:53:59] for then if if you say sorry it's it's hard to talk about
[01:54:01] sorry it's it's hard to talk about because we everyone needs to understand
[01:54:03] because we everyone needs to understand we we love these people that we're
[01:54:06] we we love these people that we're talking about when I say when we talk
[01:54:07] talking about when I say when we talk about Pastor Katherine or if we talk
[01:54:09] about Pastor Katherine or if we talk about other people involved in Glory
[01:54:11] about other people involved in Glory City Church there's insane amounts of of
[01:54:15] City Church there's insane amounts of of good, you know, honorable conduct. I was
[01:54:19] good, you know, honorable conduct. I was forever told, stay in the shiny white,
[01:54:22] forever told, stay in the shiny white, you know, don't go into gossip, don't go
[01:54:24] you know, don't go into gossip, don't go into these things like be pure, lovely,
[01:54:27] into these things like be pure, lovely, good report, you know, stay in this in
[01:54:29] good report, you know, stay in this in this realm. And and it was a great
[01:54:31] this realm. And and it was a great encouragement. And we we both, everyone,
[01:54:34] encouragement. And we we both, everyone, I think can attest, learn a lot. And
[01:54:35] I think can attest, learn a lot. And we've agonized over how to tell this
[01:54:37] we've agonized over how to tell this story
[01:54:40] story because we we love these people
[01:54:42] because we we love these people sincerely and and and still do. And
[01:54:44] sincerely and and and still do. And there's no malice in our heart or
[01:54:45] there's no malice in our heart or anything in telling this. But it's hard
[01:54:47] anything in telling this. But it's hard to it's hard to tell these events
[01:54:50] to it's hard to tell these events without telling the scope of
[01:54:53] without telling the scope of the true events of how it happened and
[01:54:55] the true events of how it happened and how it all played out. So an email was
[01:54:57] how it all played out. So an email was was later read that called into question
[01:55:00] was later read that called into question how much that apology meant when on one
[01:55:02] how much that apology meant when on one hand you say, you know, you were right
[01:55:04] hand you say, you know, you were right to involve Ben and then privately you're
[01:55:07] to involve Ben and then privately you're communicating to to other people that
[01:55:10] communicating to to other people that Nathaniel is wrong to involve Ben. So
[01:55:13] Nathaniel is wrong to involve Ben. So it's like
[01:55:15] it's like it was hard for for you guys to kind of
[01:55:17] it was hard for for you guys to kind of work out what
[01:55:18] work out what >> what do we do thenly,
[01:55:20] >> what do we do thenly, >> you know, take it.
[01:55:22] >> you know, take it. The thing I've
[01:55:23] The thing I've >> I've given this advice many times over
[01:55:25] >> I've given this advice many times over the over the phone to people. I've
[01:55:27] the over the phone to people. I've interviewed people who sharing their
[01:55:28] interviewed people who sharing their stories with me over the last over a
[01:55:31] stories with me over the last over a year now. And um the ad I had to learn
[01:55:34] year now. And um the ad I had to learn because of their stories because of the
[01:55:35] because of their stories because of the same stuff you guys are talking about
[01:55:37] same stuff you guys are talking about where you're like coming to realizations
[01:55:38] where you're like coming to realizations even even 10 years later um is that you
[01:55:42] even even 10 years later um is that you can't trust if if if you even suspect
[01:55:44] can't trust if if if you even suspect that something what I'm calling coverup
[01:55:46] that something what I'm calling coverup culture um if you suspect that something
[01:55:49] culture um if you suspect that something like that's going on in your presence
[01:55:50] like that's going on in your presence you can't trust private conversations.
[01:55:52] you can't trust private conversations. You can only trust public actions. And
[01:55:55] You can only trust public actions. And when you find that there is her her
[01:55:56] when you find that there is her her private conversation with you is one
[01:55:58] private conversation with you is one thing and you feel supported and you
[01:55:59] thing and you feel supported and you feel vindicated and you feel loved and
[01:56:01] feel vindicated and you feel loved and you feel believed and then she was
[01:56:03] you feel believed and then she was undermining you uh on those exact issues
[01:56:06] undermining you uh on those exact issues with an email that was then sprung upon
[01:56:08] with an email that was then sprung upon you unexpected in a moment where we were
[01:56:10] you unexpected in a moment where we were attempting to bring godly confrontation
[01:56:12] attempting to bring godly confrontation to Gary and his and his guys. um that
[01:56:17] to Gary and his and his guys. um that that's where you go what on what on
[01:56:19] that's where you go what on what on earth is going on there and you're still
[01:56:21] earth is going on there and you're still trying to figure that out in the context
[01:56:22] trying to figure that out in the context of you still being very very much loving
[01:56:25] of you still being very very much loving and caring about about Catherine and
[01:56:27] and caring about about Catherine and about the people at Glory City.
[01:56:31] about the people at Glory City. >> Yeah. And that is something that we are
[01:56:33] >> Yeah. And that is something that we are still processing through. it. We are
[01:56:36] still processing through. it. We are still initiating conversations with all
[01:56:38] still initiating conversations with all of the people that we're talking um
[01:56:41] of the people that we're talking um through here and have been, you know, in
[01:56:43] through here and have been, you know, in contact with them. But for now, we're
[01:56:45] contact with them. But for now, we're just processing through this. It is
[01:56:47] just processing through this. It is real. Um but I say that to say we did
[01:56:50] real. Um but I say that to say we did receive an apology then that meant a lot
[01:56:52] receive an apology then that meant a lot to us and seemed extremely genuine. Uh
[01:56:55] to us and seemed extremely genuine. Uh and the dossier and the events were
[01:56:58] and the dossier and the events were presented to several people. We found
[01:57:01] presented to several people. We found out that there were other pastors in
[01:57:03] out that there were other pastors in Adelaide that already believed Gary had
[01:57:05] Adelaide that already believed Gary had been data mining. And it kind of this
[01:57:08] been data mining. And it kind of this document confirmed that. And I guess
[01:57:10] document confirmed that. And I guess this is where uh the story moves to a a
[01:57:13] this is where uh the story moves to a a gentleman named Peter on the board of
[01:57:16] gentleman named Peter on the board of Gary Morgan.
[01:57:24] And um
[01:57:25] And um >> yeah, and I I'll say I have personal
[01:57:27] >> yeah, and I I'll say I have personal interaction with Peter from the very
[01:57:29] interaction with Peter from the very beginning when I first I just put a
[01:57:30] beginning when I first I just put a tweet out when I saw that how convincing
[01:57:32] tweet out when I saw that how convincing all the evidence was. I was like, you
[01:57:34] all the evidence was. I was like, you know, basically leaders in the
[01:57:35] know, basically leaders in the charismatic church, especially in
[01:57:36] charismatic church, especially in Australia, if you know about Gary
[01:57:37] Australia, if you know about Gary Morgan, please just speak the truth
[01:57:40] Morgan, please just speak the truth about this guy. I didn't want to make a
[01:57:41] about this guy. I didn't want to make a video. I didn't want to do anymore, but
[01:57:42] video. I didn't want to do anymore, but I but it was obviously true. And when I
[01:57:44] I but it was obviously true. And when I did this, I was reached out to by this
[01:57:46] did this, I was reached out to by this same Peter. So, we've had interaction.
[01:57:48] same Peter. So, we've had interaction. We've emailed back and forth. I believe
[01:57:49] We've emailed back and forth. I believe he lied to me multiple times, and I have
[01:57:51] he lied to me multiple times, and I have evidence of it. Hey guys, editor Mike
[01:57:53] evidence of it. Hey guys, editor Mike here. I've got more evidence for you.
[01:57:55] here. I've got more evidence for you. This is from a text message I received
[01:57:56] This is from a text message I received from Peter McHugh. And you'll see at the
[01:57:58] from Peter McHugh. And you'll see at the top of your screen, he wrote to me that
[01:58:01] top of your screen, he wrote to me that during the many years in which he has
[01:58:03] during the many years in which he has known Gary. He says, "I'm only aware of
[01:58:05] known Gary. He says, "I'm only aware of one accusation made against Gary for
[01:58:06] one accusation made against Gary for data mining for a word of knowledge. It
[01:58:09] data mining for a word of knowledge. It was 10 years ago." And he talks about
[01:58:11] was 10 years ago." And he talks about Nathaniel and Haley's accusation. He
[01:58:14] Nathaniel and Haley's accusation. He says the investigation came to a
[01:58:15] says the investigation came to a conclusion of the evidence being
[01:58:16] conclusion of the evidence being inconclusive. That was a lie. That was
[01:58:18] inconclusive. That was a lie. That was two lies actually because there was no
[01:58:20] two lies actually because there was no investigation and it didn't come to
[01:58:21] investigation and it didn't come to conclusions. I guess there's a third and
[01:58:24] conclusions. I guess there's a third and the evidence was not inconclusive, but
[01:58:26] the evidence was not inconclusive, but we'll get into more of that later. The
[01:58:29] we'll get into more of that later. The thing I want to highlight here is he
[01:58:30] thing I want to highlight here is he claims to me, and they've said this on
[01:58:32] claims to me, and they've said this on multiple occasions, that this is the
[01:58:35] multiple occasions, that this is the only time anybody accused them of
[01:58:36] only time anybody accused them of anything. It was when Nathaniel and
[01:58:37] anything. It was when Nathaniel and Haley came forward, that was it. But in
[01:58:39] Haley came forward, that was it. But in fact, Gary had been accused earlier that
[01:58:42] fact, Gary had been accused earlier that same year, he talked about it on a
[01:58:44] same year, he talked about it on a podcast I'm about to show you where, of
[01:58:47] podcast I'm about to show you where, of all people, his own guy, Alan Jones, is
[01:58:49] all people, his own guy, Alan Jones, is interviewing him. February 15th, 2016
[01:58:52] interviewing him. February 15th, 2016 was the podcast date. That's before
[01:58:55] was the podcast date. That's before Nathaniel and Haley bring their
[01:58:56] Nathaniel and Haley bring their accusations. Listen to what he says
[01:58:58] accusations. Listen to what he says here. And then know that we will also
[01:59:00] here. And then know that we will also show evidence of Victoria and email
[01:59:03] show evidence of Victoria and email exchanges where she shows that she
[01:59:04] exchanges where she shows that she brought concerns about the integrity of
[01:59:06] brought concerns about the integrity of prophetic ministry. This is though
[01:59:09] prophetic ministry. This is though really profound. It's Gary in his own
[01:59:11] really profound. It's Gary in his own words telling you that he has had
[01:59:13] words telling you that he has had multiple accusations from before the
[01:59:15] multiple accusations from before the time when Nathaniel and Haley came
[01:59:17] time when Nathaniel and Haley came forward. I thought I thought this was
[01:59:18] forward. I thought I thought this was profound because well, it's Allan who's
[01:59:21] profound because well, it's Allan who's actually the guy interviewing him.
[01:59:23] actually the guy interviewing him. >> And you know, I'll be vulnerable.
[01:59:25] >> And you know, I'll be vulnerable. There's many times people will say to
[01:59:27] There's many times people will say to you, "Oh, you you got that off the
[01:59:28] you, "Oh, you you got that off the internet." Oh, you got that off
[01:59:30] internet." Oh, you got that off Facebook. And I remember being at a
[01:59:31] Facebook. And I remember being at a church when at the end of the service,
[01:59:34] church when at the end of the service, this guy comes out of nowhere and he
[01:59:36] this guy comes out of nowhere and he comes right in my face and said, "You
[01:59:38] comes right in my face and said, "You got that on Facebook." And the pastor,
[01:59:40] got that on Facebook." And the pastor, >> wait, wait, wait. So the accusation is
[01:59:42] >> wait, wait, wait. So the accusation is that before you go to a church service,
[01:59:44] that before you go to a church service, you're scouring Facebook in the hopes
[01:59:46] you're scouring Facebook in the hopes that these people show up and you've
[01:59:48] that these people show up and you've gleaned personal information about them
[01:59:49] gleaned personal information about them to use
[01:59:51] to use >> in the service.
[01:59:52] >> in the service. >> In the service. Okay.
[01:59:53] >> In the service. Okay. >> And um and I would consider him the
[01:59:55] >> And um and I would consider him the fixer. That's what I would call him
[01:59:57] fixer. That's what I would call him 100%.
[01:59:59] 100%. This this guy
[02:00:02] This this guy I'm not convinced of anything in here,
[02:00:04] I'm not convinced of anything in here, Mike. I think I've held that position
[02:00:05] Mike. I think I've held that position all the way along. I I hear two sides of
[02:00:09] all the way along. I I hear two sides of a story that people are presenting
[02:00:12] a story that people are presenting different interpretations of things that
[02:00:14] different interpretations of things that I don't understand because I'm not a
[02:00:17] I don't understand because I'm not a technologically orientated person. And
[02:00:19] technologically orientated person. And so, as I've indicated all the way along,
[02:00:22] so, as I've indicated all the way along, I'm very open to the thought that Gary
[02:00:24] I'm very open to the thought that Gary is guilty. I I've made that clear in all
[02:00:28] is guilty. I I've made that clear in all sorts of email communication that I've
[02:00:30] sorts of email communication that I've communicated. I've not been trying to
[02:00:32] communicated. I've not been trying to prove that he's innocent. I've been
[02:00:34] prove that he's innocent. I've been asking the other side to prove that he's
[02:00:36] asking the other side to prove that he's guilty.
[02:00:37] guilty. >> Um, so in so in no in no way would you
[02:00:40] >> Um, so in so in no in no way would you ever tell people that the accusations
[02:00:41] ever tell people that the accusations were debunked and proven to have no
[02:00:43] were debunked and proven to have no substance. You would never say that to
[02:00:44] substance. You would never say that to someone, right?
[02:00:45] someone, right? >> I've never said that.
[02:00:47] >> I've never said that. >> Okay. You wrote that to Victoria
[02:00:50] >> Okay. You wrote that to Victoria in March of 2025.
[02:00:53] You wrote to Victoria in 2016. Gary was
[02:00:56] You wrote to Victoria in 2016. Gary was very publicly and aggressively accused
[02:00:58] very publicly and aggressively accused of using Facebook to give words of
[02:00:59] of using Facebook to give words of knowledge and prophecy. I had the
[02:01:01] knowledge and prophecy. I had the privilege of walking with Gary through
[02:01:02] privilege of walking with Gary through this very harrowing time. The
[02:01:04] this very harrowing time. The accusations were debunked and proven to
[02:01:06] accusations were debunked and proven to have no substance.
[02:01:08] have no substance. You said that you've never said that to
[02:01:11] You said that you've never said that to anyone.
[02:01:13] anyone. So, it sounds like you tell some people
[02:01:15] So, it sounds like you tell some people that it's inconclusive and you tell
[02:01:16] that it's inconclusive and you tell other people that it's been debunked.
[02:01:19] other people that it's been debunked. >> Uh
[02:01:21] >> Uh I Yep. I I have no internally I have no
[02:01:26] I Yep. I I have no internally I have no reason to believe that uh Gary is either
[02:01:30] reason to believe that uh Gary is either right or wrong until it's proven by the
[02:01:32] right or wrong until it's proven by the forensic investigation. So yes, I wrote
[02:01:34] forensic investigation. So yes, I wrote that and uh
[02:01:37] that and uh sure
[02:01:42] a perception. We've always acknowledged
[02:01:44] a perception. We've always acknowledged that there's a perception that any
[02:01:46] that there's a perception that any objective person looking at this is
[02:01:48] objective person looking at this is going to come to the conclusions that
[02:01:50] going to come to the conclusions that you've come to. We've not we've not
[02:01:52] you've come to. We've not we've not hidden from that. We've not suggested
[02:01:54] hidden from that. We've not suggested >> You've definitely not always
[02:01:55] >> You've definitely not always acknowledged that. You've not always
[02:01:57] acknowledged that. You've not always acknowledged that. I've just read you
[02:01:58] acknowledged that. I've just read you emails where you don't
[02:01:59] emails where you don't >> and yeah, we'll just obviously obviously
[02:02:03] >> and yeah, we'll just obviously obviously like share the things that attain to
[02:02:05] like share the things that attain to like our experiences and what we kind of
[02:02:08] like our experiences and what we kind of went through. And I guess for us, we'll
[02:02:11] went through. And I guess for us, we'll do our best to keep it to what we
[02:02:14] do our best to keep it to what we experienced at the time of the event.
[02:02:16] experienced at the time of the event. But yeah, when when Peter um came on the
[02:02:20] But yeah, when when Peter um came on the scene,
[02:02:21] scene, uh he he actually my first interaction
[02:02:25] uh he he actually my first interaction with him was a phone call where he went
[02:02:27] with him was a phone call where he went over the same old thing saying talking
[02:02:29] over the same old thing saying talking to Ben was gossip that was wrong. Um
[02:02:31] to Ben was gossip that was wrong. Um creating a fake Facebook page was not
[02:02:33] creating a fake Facebook page was not Kingdom. And um basically said to me at
[02:02:37] Kingdom. And um basically said to me at the start of the call, I'll do the
[02:02:38] the start of the call, I'll do the talking, you do the listening. Quite
[02:02:41] talking, you do the listening. Quite shocked by the tone. It's my first
[02:02:43] shocked by the tone. It's my first experience with with Peter. And um by
[02:02:46] experience with with Peter. And um by the end of the call, having the evidence
[02:02:48] the end of the call, having the evidence that we had, I said, "Can we at least
[02:02:50] that we had, I said, "Can we at least send you the evidence? Uh could you at
[02:02:52] send you the evidence? Uh could you at least take a look at the facts?" And
[02:02:53] least take a look at the facts?" And Peter said twice, "I I won't even look
[02:02:56] Peter said twice, "I I won't even look at them." That was the end of our call.
[02:02:59] at them." That was the end of our call. Ben and a guy named Daniel Hagen um uh
[02:03:03] Ben and a guy named Daniel Hagen um uh spent some time with Peter convincing
[02:03:05] spent some time with Peter convincing him quite robust conversation to look at
[02:03:08] him quite robust conversation to look at the evidence and they convinced him to.
[02:03:11] the evidence and they convinced him to. So, we did get to send the evidence
[02:03:13] So, we did get to send the evidence through to him. And allegedly, he said
[02:03:16] through to him. And allegedly, he said to Ben when he first looked at the
[02:03:18] to Ben when he first looked at the evidence, "This looks like a smoking
[02:03:20] evidence, "This looks like a smoking gun."
[02:03:22] gun." The reason I know that is because Ben
[02:03:24] The reason I know that is because Ben called me to tell me and I was mid20s. I
[02:03:27] called me to tell me and I was mid20s. I didn't know what a smoking gun meant.
[02:03:28] didn't know what a smoking gun meant. So, I looked it up on Google and I'm
[02:03:30] So, I looked it up on Google and I'm like, "Oh, so that's that's a good
[02:03:31] like, "Oh, so that's that's a good thing, right, Ben?" And and he's like,
[02:03:34] thing, right, Ben?" And and he's like, "It's a very good thing, Nathaniel, get
[02:03:36] "It's a very good thing, Nathaniel, get some rest. We've put this document
[02:03:38] some rest. We've put this document together. It's over." Once again, we
[02:03:40] together. It's over." Once again, we thought it was over, Mike. Um, but we
[02:03:42] thought it was over, Mike. Um, but we found out that Peter went to Gary. Gary
[02:03:45] found out that Peter went to Gary. Gary looked him in the eyes, told him he was
[02:03:47] looked him in the eyes, told him he was innocent, and Peter believed him. And so
[02:03:51] innocent, and Peter believed him. And so within a few days, we were told that the
[02:03:53] within a few days, we were told that the evidence is actually circumstantial is
[02:03:56] evidence is actually circumstantial is what we were told. Um, and I believe
[02:03:59] what we were told. Um, and I believe recently the evidence has been called
[02:04:01] recently the evidence has been called other things other even even going as
[02:04:04] other things other even even going as far as saying there was no evidence more
[02:04:05] far as saying there was no evidence more recently.
[02:04:07] recently. >> I'm sorry. Please Chris, share.
[02:04:08] >> I'm sorry. Please Chris, share. >> Yeah.
[02:04:09] >> Yeah. Can I just ask um so you're you're happy
[02:04:12] Can I just ask um so you're you're happy to say now that you have received
[02:04:15] to say now that you have received evidence from us? Yeah. From Nathaniel
[02:04:18] evidence from us? Yeah. From Nathaniel and and Dan, you've received evidence,
[02:04:20] and and Dan, you've received evidence, would you say, Peter?
[02:04:22] would you say, Peter? >> I've always been happy to say that.
[02:04:24] >> I've always been happy to say that. That's in the all the email
[02:04:25] That's in the all the email conversations. That's what the
[02:04:27] conversations. That's what the conversations were about. Yeah.
[02:04:29] conversations were about. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly.
[02:04:30] >> Yeah. Exactly. >> So, I'm just curious as to why you told
[02:04:33] >> So, I'm just curious as to why you told Leon that you never received any
[02:04:36] Leon that you never received any evidence.
[02:04:39] So, so can we go back to go back to that
[02:04:43] So, so can we go back to go back to that um comment in the transcript?
[02:04:45] um comment in the transcript? >> Just curious, yeah, as to why you told
[02:04:48] >> Just curious, yeah, as to why you told Leo that you never received any evidence
[02:04:53] Leo that you never received any evidence that you got nothing.
[02:04:56] that you got nothing. >> So, what I'm interested in in is hearing
[02:04:58] >> So, what I'm interested in in is hearing what I actually said, not your
[02:05:00] what I actually said, not your recollection of what I said. I'm sorry.
[02:05:01] recollection of what I said. I'm sorry. Okay.
[02:05:02] Okay. >> You were asked, you know, did they have
[02:05:03] >> You were asked, you know, did they have a reason for refusing to submit their
[02:05:05] a reason for refusing to submit their electronic devices, which they didn't
[02:05:07] electronic devices, which they didn't refuse. If there was a reason, what was
[02:05:09] refuse. If there was a reason, what was it? And you replied, they would not give
[02:05:11] it? And you replied, they would not give us any reason. And they've never
[02:05:14] us any reason. And they've never provided me as the main investigator
[02:05:16] provided me as the main investigator here in Australia with any evidence of
[02:05:18] here in Australia with any evidence of the claims. They could produce nothing.
[02:05:25] Was that a deceptive comment?
[02:05:30] Well, the the context for me in making
[02:05:32] Well, the the context for me in making that comment was that there was no uh
[02:05:36] that comment was that there was no uh evidence through the investigation of
[02:05:38] evidence through the investigation of the electronic devices because the
[02:05:40] the electronic devices because the evidence I again we're going to get down
[02:05:42] evidence I again we're going to get down to semantics. But from my perspective,
[02:05:45] to semantics. But from my perspective, my understanding is that I've got
[02:05:47] my understanding is that I've got circumstantial
[02:05:49] circumstantial uh evidence. It's not evidence that
[02:05:51] uh evidence. It's not evidence that would actually prove would hold up in a
[02:05:53] would actually prove would hold up in a court of law. and that my whole my whole
[02:05:56] court of law. and that my whole my whole premise in the conversations was that
[02:05:59] premise in the conversations was that Gary was innocent until he was proven
[02:06:01] Gary was innocent until he was proven guilty. And so I was looking at it
[02:06:03] guilty. And so I was looking at it through the lens of evidence that could
[02:06:06] through the lens of evidence that could be substantive and and actually prove
[02:06:09] be substantive and and actually prove the points that were being made. And so
[02:06:12] the points that were being made. And so yes, they were the words that I used,
[02:06:14] yes, they were the words that I used, but the context for me in using them was
[02:06:17] but the context for me in using them was was different to the context that you're
[02:06:19] was different to the context that you're wanting to portray. Um, and so yeah, I
[02:06:23] wanting to portray. Um, and so yeah, I mean you you can you can characterize me
[02:06:26] mean you you can you can characterize me in whatever way you want to characterize
[02:06:27] in whatever way you want to characterize me. Uh, Mike, at the end of the day,
[02:06:30] me. Uh, Mike, at the end of the day, >> Peter, stop playing the victim. You're
[02:06:31] >> Peter, stop playing the victim. You're you're deceiving us right in real time.
[02:06:34] you're deceiving us right in real time. Okay, I'm not playing the victim. You
[02:06:36] Okay, I'm not playing the victim. You don't need to play the victim. Sir,
[02:06:40] don't need to play the victim. Sir, you said they did not present you, they
[02:06:42] you said they did not present you, they did not provide you with quote any
[02:06:44] did not provide you with quote any evidence of the claims, your words. What
[02:06:47] evidence of the claims, your words. What are the claims? The claims are not about
[02:06:49] are the claims? The claims are not about electronic devices. The claims are about
[02:06:52] electronic devices. The claims are about Facebook pages and words of information.
[02:06:54] Facebook pages and words of information. They did give you the evidence. You lied
[02:06:57] They did give you the evidence. You lied to those people to defend Gary,
[02:07:00] to those people to defend Gary, >> but back then it was called
[02:07:02] >> but back then it was called circumstantial and there was a lot of
[02:07:05] circumstantial and there was a lot of pressure from Peter to do a big
[02:07:08] pressure from Peter to do a big investigation. Now might I add at this
[02:07:10] investigation. Now might I add at this point Dan Hagen, Ben Fitzgerald,
[02:07:12] point Dan Hagen, Ben Fitzgerald, Katherine Rala, us, Chris, others in
[02:07:15] Katherine Rala, us, Chris, others in Adelaide, many people had already come
[02:07:17] Adelaide, many people had already come to the conclusion that it looks to us
[02:07:20] to the conclusion that it looks to us like Gary has been data mining. That was
[02:07:22] like Gary has been data mining. That was our opinion. Um, and firm belief, but
[02:07:26] our opinion. Um, and firm belief, but there was a real push from Peter McHugh
[02:07:29] there was a real push from Peter McHugh to do a big investigation to get to the
[02:07:32] to do a big investigation to get to the bottom of this. Um, and we were
[02:07:34] bottom of this. Um, and we were encouraged to submit to that
[02:07:36] encouraged to submit to that investigation by our leadership of which
[02:07:38] investigation by our leadership of which we did. And emails went back, Mike, for
[02:07:42] we did. And emails went back, Mike, for months. You've you've seen the thread.
[02:07:43] months. You've you've seen the thread. Chris has seen the thread. And um,
[02:07:46] Chris has seen the thread. And um, basically
[02:07:48] basically there there were several things we we
[02:07:50] there there were several things we we were asked to give our devices up of
[02:07:52] were asked to give our devices up of which we were willing. Um, there
[02:07:55] which we were willing. Um, there >> let me if I can set the stage for this a
[02:07:58] >> let me if I can set the stage for this a little bit. So Peter comes in and
[02:07:59] little bit. So Peter comes in and there's two things he does. The first
[02:08:00] there's two things he does. The first one, he he uh he hits you guys on the
[02:08:03] one, he he uh he hits you guys on the protocol objection. You shouldn't have
[02:08:05] protocol objection. You shouldn't have done it this way. You shouldn't have
[02:08:06] done it this way. You shouldn't have done this thing or that thing. And it's
[02:08:08] done this thing or that thing. And it's to me the protocol objection is very
[02:08:10] to me the protocol objection is very very powerful because it ignores the
[02:08:12] very powerful because it ignores the real issue in the room and it it then uh
[02:08:14] real issue in the room and it it then uh comes against whoever's making noise. Um
[02:08:17] comes against whoever's making noise. Um you shouldn't have talked to Ben. Uh my
[02:08:19] you shouldn't have talked to Ben. Uh my theory is that the ball only moved in
[02:08:21] theory is that the ball only moved in anyway because Ben was involved because
[02:08:23] anyway because Ben was involved because you guys were just two small fish in a
[02:08:25] you guys were just two small fish in a pond where whether where Ben has like a
[02:08:28] pond where whether where Ben has like a lot more respect and clout and there's
[02:08:29] lot more respect and clout and there's the Bethl connection there and so
[02:08:31] the Bethl connection there and so there's more weight to when he gets
[02:08:33] there's more weight to when he gets involved. That's when Katherine came
[02:08:35] involved. That's when Katherine came around and that's when Peter McHugh is
[02:08:37] around and that's when Peter McHugh is like, "Oh yeah, there's some some some
[02:08:39] like, "Oh yeah, there's some some some merit to these things." Whereas to you,
[02:08:40] merit to these things." Whereas to you, he says he wouldn't even look at it. Um
[02:08:43] he says he wouldn't even look at it. Um then
[02:08:44] then now he's got to deal with the fact that
[02:08:46] now he's got to deal with the fact that there's people believing it. Ben's
[02:08:47] there's people believing it. Ben's talking about it. there's there's
[02:08:48] talking about it. there's there's there's accountability expected. So he
[02:08:50] there's accountability expected. So he he starts to move into obstacle creation
[02:08:52] he starts to move into obstacle creation mode and I've seen the threats and
[02:08:55] mode and I've seen the threats and you're going to walk through the
[02:08:56] you're going to walk through the specific details of all the obstacles he
[02:08:58] specific details of all the obstacles he created where he's like we need a we
[02:08:59] created where he's like we need a we need an independent investigation. We
[02:09:01] need an independent investigation. We need to hire an investigator and then
[02:09:03] need to hire an investigator and then but here's how it's going to go and
[02:09:04] but here's how it's going to go and here's all the yet the evidence is all
[02:09:07] here's all the yet the evidence is all you don't need an investigator for this,
[02:09:08] you don't need an investigator for this, right? Like if I witness somebody
[02:09:10] right? Like if I witness somebody stealing a car, I don't need an
[02:09:13] stealing a car, I don't need an investigator to prove to me to to me
[02:09:15] investigator to prove to me to to me that the guy stole a car. this is an a a
[02:09:18] that the guy stole a car. this is an a a just a series of ridiculous obstacles
[02:09:21] just a series of ridiculous obstacles that he's putting in your path to try to
[02:09:24] that he's putting in your path to try to dissuade and and slow down any sort of
[02:09:28] dissuade and and slow down any sort of accountability ultimately that Gary may
[02:09:29] accountability ultimately that Gary may end up getting from this. So, if you
[02:09:31] end up getting from this. So, if you don't mind, yeah, walk us through like
[02:09:32] don't mind, yeah, walk us through like what are those obstacles? How hard did
[02:09:34] what are those obstacles? How hard did did Peter McHugh make it?
[02:09:36] did Peter McHugh make it? >> Well, yeah, it went back and forth for
[02:09:39] >> Well, yeah, it went back and forth for months with emails. And again, we we did
[02:09:43] months with emails. And again, we we did what we were told by our leadership.
[02:09:44] what we were told by our leadership. It's it's a good thing to submit to the
[02:09:46] It's it's a good thing to submit to the process with Peter. And we were asked um
[02:09:51] process with Peter. And we were asked um it was said that we would have to pay.
[02:09:53] it was said that we would have to pay. It's at least how it was presented that
[02:09:55] It's at least how it was presented that the accusers would be paying for this
[02:09:57] the accusers would be paying for this investigation at $650
[02:10:00] investigation at $650 >> an hour that we would have to give up
[02:10:03] >> an hour that we would have to give up our devices, which was confusing to us,
[02:10:05] our devices, which was confusing to us, but we were willing to do so. Gary would
[02:10:08] but we were willing to do so. Gary would give up his devices, but we were
[02:10:10] give up his devices, but we were required to pay for replacement devices
[02:10:13] required to pay for replacement devices for him. Um, and there were multiple
[02:10:16] for him. Um, and there were multiple things like that. Uh, I wanted if we
[02:10:19] things like that. Uh, I wanted if we were going to get this thing
[02:10:20] were going to get this thing investigated, might I add, we've we've
[02:10:23] investigated, might I add, we've we've got reason to believe that it looks like
[02:10:25] got reason to believe that it looks like um Gary chose the investigator. That's
[02:10:28] um Gary chose the investigator. That's allegedly as well. So, we we weren't
[02:10:30] allegedly as well. So, we we weren't allowed to choose the investigator, but
[02:10:33] allowed to choose the investigator, but >> that must seemed clear from the that you
[02:10:36] >> that must seemed clear from the that you had no control or or or really
[02:10:38] had no control or or or really significant influence in the
[02:10:39] significant influence in the investigation. Peter's
[02:10:41] investigation. Peter's Peter's in charge of the investigation
[02:10:43] Peter's in charge of the investigation ultimately. He's he took over. So, you
[02:10:45] ultimately. He's he took over. So, you have someone who ultimately is
[02:10:47] have someone who ultimately is representing Gary who's going to
[02:10:48] representing Gary who's going to investigate or control the investigation
[02:10:50] investigate or control the investigation of Gary. Um, he's going to ask you to
[02:10:53] of Gary. Um, he's going to ask you to pay for it. It's an exorbitant amount of
[02:10:55] pay for it. It's an exorbitant amount of money. He later tells other people that
[02:10:58] money. He later tells other people that he and another and who was the other guy
[02:10:59] he and another and who was the other guy that offered it's a well-known name.
[02:11:01] that offered it's a well-known name. >> Uh, Graham Cook. Graham Cook that that
[02:11:03] >> Uh, Graham Cook. Graham Cook that that that uh Peter McHugh or or Gary between
[02:11:06] that uh Peter McHugh or or Gary between them and Graham Cook offered $20,000 for
[02:11:09] them and Graham Cook offered $20,000 for the investigation and that you guys
[02:11:11] the investigation and that you guys backed out so that he lied about you
[02:11:13] backed out so that he lied about you guys later on. Editor Mike here. Look, I
[02:11:16] guys later on. Editor Mike here. Look, I don't really know exactly what Graham
[02:11:17] don't really know exactly what Graham Cook's involvement was. Peter McHugh
[02:11:19] Cook's involvement was. Peter McHugh says that Graham Cook offered uh to pay
[02:11:22] says that Graham Cook offered uh to pay along with him 20 grand total between
[02:11:25] along with him 20 grand total between them. And that he also did this what
[02:11:28] them. And that he also did this what you're looking on your screen. This is
[02:11:29] you're looking on your screen. This is an excerpt from an email which you can
[02:11:31] an excerpt from an email which you can read. You can pause and read if you
[02:11:32] read. You can pause and read if you want. And this is where Graham Cook is
[02:11:34] want. And this is where Graham Cook is basically saying, "Hey, Peter, good job.
[02:11:36] basically saying, "Hey, Peter, good job. Good job taking care of Gary." You know,
[02:11:38] Good job taking care of Gary." You know, and really in the email exchange, Peter
[02:11:40] and really in the email exchange, Peter uses this concept of innocent until
[02:11:42] uses this concept of innocent until proven guilty way beyond any reasonable
[02:11:45] proven guilty way beyond any reasonable way in which normal people mean this.
[02:11:47] way in which normal people mean this. It's like really nutty what what he
[02:11:49] It's like really nutty what what he means by it. But I think we should
[02:11:51] means by it. But I think we should document that Graham Cook was in support
[02:11:54] document that Graham Cook was in support of the actions of Peter. What he
[02:11:56] of the actions of Peter. What he actually knew or what he was being told
[02:11:58] actually knew or what he was being told by Peter, that I do not know. And then
[02:12:00] by Peter, that I do not know. And then there is of course the Firelight 2017
[02:12:02] there is of course the Firelight 2017 conference with Bill Johnson, Graham
[02:12:04] conference with Bill Johnson, Graham Cook, Gary Morgan where all of them were
[02:12:06] Cook, Gary Morgan where all of them were on stage doing ministry together. And
[02:12:08] on stage doing ministry together. And you can see that on your screen right
[02:12:10] you can see that on your screen right now. It It's pretty uh trippy because
[02:12:13] now. It It's pretty uh trippy because this happened the next year after all of
[02:12:15] this happened the next year after all of this other stuff blew up with Gary
[02:12:17] this other stuff blew up with Gary Morgan and there was a mountain of
[02:12:19] Morgan and there was a mountain of evidence and proof that the man was a
[02:12:21] evidence and proof that the man was a fraud. Uh these guys are showing up and
[02:12:23] fraud. Uh these guys are showing up and doing this and yeah, Bill knew. Bill was
[02:12:25] doing this and yeah, Bill knew. Bill was told. Ben Fitzgerald told him. Um but he
[02:12:27] told. Ben Fitzgerald told him. Um but he makes it so difficult. You have to give
[02:12:29] makes it so difficult. You have to give your devices, which is irrelevant to
[02:12:31] your devices, which is irrelevant to this investigation. There's you're not
[02:12:33] this investigation. There's you're not you're not even being accused of
[02:12:34] you're not even being accused of anything. You have to pay for it. Um, if
[02:12:37] anything. You have to pay for it. Um, if you do want to interact with the
[02:12:38] you do want to interact with the investigator, you have to travel. You
[02:12:40] investigator, you have to travel. You can't even talk to the guy.
[02:12:42] can't even talk to the guy. >> Mike, that that that is was the thing
[02:12:45] >> Mike, that that that is was the thing for me that I couldn't do. I'm I can
[02:12:47] for me that I couldn't do. I'm I can give our devices up. We can pay for it.
[02:12:49] give our devices up. We can pay for it. But do you know that ultimately I wasn't
[02:12:52] But do you know that ultimately I wasn't allowed? Um, if you if you look through,
[02:12:54] allowed? Um, if you if you look through, please confirm this. look through the
[02:12:56] please confirm this. look through the email thread.
[02:12:56] email thread. >> He said that Daniel Hagen could go there
[02:12:59] >> He said that Daniel Hagen could go there and brief the investigator because he
[02:13:01] and brief the investigator because he was part of this email process
[02:13:02] was part of this email process >> of which Daniel said Nathaniel's the
[02:13:04] >> of which Daniel said Nathaniel's the right person since he has the
[02:13:06] right person since he has the information. But I was prohibited. Um
[02:13:08] information. But I was prohibited. Um not only that any information we
[02:13:11] not only that any information we presented Gary would have to see first
[02:13:14] presented Gary would have to see first and we said that doesn't make sense to
[02:13:16] and we said that doesn't make sense to us. Uh but it was clear that no no to
[02:13:19] us. Uh but it was clear that no no to say anything else is to assume that Gary
[02:13:21] say anything else is to assume that Gary is guilty and we must assume he's
[02:13:23] is guilty and we must assume he's innocent until proven guilty. So, we
[02:13:25] innocent until proven guilty. So, we weren't allowed to present any
[02:13:27] weren't allowed to present any information that Gary wouldn't see
[02:13:29] information that Gary wouldn't see first. Um, and ultimately after months
[02:13:34] first. Um, and ultimately after months of going back and forth, both Ben and
[02:13:36] of going back and forth, both Ben and Daniel came to the conclusion they
[02:13:38] Daniel came to the conclusion they didn't feel that that this was a a fair
[02:13:40] didn't feel that that this was a a fair investigation. And um I mean it even
[02:13:44] investigation. And um I mean it even said at one point that if uh Gary is
[02:13:48] said at one point that if uh Gary is found guilty that we will support a
[02:13:52] found guilty that we will support a process of restoration that Peter will
[02:13:55] process of restoration that Peter will um
[02:13:56] um >> lead
[02:13:57] >> lead >> lead. And to me I expected there like if
[02:14:00] >> lead. And to me I expected there like if we're going to do all of this surely
[02:14:02] we're going to do all of this surely there would be cuz for us it was like if
[02:14:04] there would be cuz for us it was like if in the same statement if Gary is found
[02:14:06] in the same statement if Gary is found innocent Nathaniel and Haley will have
[02:14:08] innocent Nathaniel and Haley will have to apologize to all parties. we must
[02:14:11] to apologize to all parties. we must submit to whatever the investigation
[02:14:13] submit to whatever the investigation shows, not even knowing what it will
[02:14:14] shows, not even knowing what it will show. But we had to we there's a big
[02:14:17] show. But we had to we there's a big list of of apologies we would have to
[02:14:19] list of of apologies we would have to make. I really hoped that if Gary was
[02:14:22] make. I really hoped that if Gary was found guilty, there would be a place of
[02:14:24] found guilty, there would be a place of of going to the to the victims and
[02:14:27] of going to the to the victims and speaking with them if found guilty of of
[02:14:29] speaking with them if found guilty of of this being public. But there was not. It
[02:14:31] this being public. But there was not. It was very clearly there will be a process
[02:14:33] was very clearly there will be a process of restoration that we will submit to.
[02:14:35] of restoration that we will submit to. We didn't know any better at the time.
[02:14:37] We didn't know any better at the time. We thought, okay, we'll we'll just go
[02:14:39] We thought, okay, we'll we'll just go along as best we can with this. Um, but
[02:14:42] along as best we can with this. Um, but ultimately Ben and Daniel felt that it
[02:14:44] ultimately Ben and Daniel felt that it it wasn't going to be um
[02:14:48] it wasn't going to be um >> fair
[02:14:48] >> fair >> fair. And so it it they did end up
[02:14:50] >> fair. And so it it they did end up saying, we we don't wish to take this
[02:14:52] saying, we we don't wish to take this any further. And Haley and I were kind
[02:14:54] any further. And Haley and I were kind of left in a place then of like, okay, I
[02:14:57] of left in a place then of like, okay, I guess
[02:14:58] guess >> I guess it's not happening. There'll be
[02:15:00] >> I guess it's not happening. There'll be no investigation.
[02:15:02] no investigation. >> And that's we were
[02:15:03] >> And that's we were >> Yeah, they were advised. investigation
[02:15:05] >> Yeah, they were advised. investigation was called off by Peter. The second Ben
[02:15:07] was called off by Peter. The second Ben was not involved, Peter's like,
[02:15:09] was not involved, Peter's like, >> "Okay, it's not again." I think that Ben
[02:15:11] >> "Okay, it's not again." I think that Ben just had more reputational strength in
[02:15:14] just had more reputational strength in that in that interaction. So, he's not
[02:15:16] that in that interaction. So, he's not involved. And then Peter called it off
[02:15:17] involved. And then Peter called it off and he told other people that you were
[02:15:19] and he told other people that you were the one that backed out.
[02:15:20] the one that backed out. >> And um so just just lie after lie.
[02:15:30] >> They they had said they were they were
[02:15:31] >> They they had said they were they were willing to give 20,000. And we in this
[02:15:33] willing to give 20,000. And we in this this dialogue, we were like, "Who did
[02:15:35] this dialogue, we were like, "Who did you tell this to?" Cuz it's not in the
[02:15:36] you tell this to?" Cuz it's not in the email thread. It's it's nobody. You say
[02:15:39] email thread. It's it's nobody. You say you told Ben, we asked Ben Fitzgerald.
[02:15:41] you told Ben, we asked Ben Fitzgerald. He's like, "No, I don't remember telling
[02:15:42] He's like, "No, I don't remember telling me that."
[02:15:43] me that." >> We were putting up $20,000 in the
[02:15:45] >> We were putting up $20,000 in the process. We weren't asking them to carry
[02:15:47] process. We weren't asking them to carry the whole financial burden.
[02:15:50] the whole financial burden. >> Can I just ask where um like who you
[02:15:53] >> Can I just ask where um like who you spoke to about you? You you and Graeme
[02:15:55] spoke to about you? You you and Graeme Cook was it were going to put up 20,000.
[02:15:58] Cook was it were going to put up 20,000. >> Correct.
[02:15:59] >> Correct. >> And who did you tell that to? Ben,
[02:16:04] >> And who did you tell that to? Ben, >> how did you communicate that to Ben
[02:16:06] >> how did you communicate that to Ben >> verbally? Because it was a relational
[02:16:08] >> verbally? Because it was a relational conversation
[02:16:09] conversation >> on the phone. You said, "Yeah, because
[02:16:12] >> on the phone. You said, "Yeah, because it doesn't look like that in the uh the
[02:16:14] it doesn't look like that in the uh the email threads. It looked like you would
[02:16:16] email threads. It looked like you would make them pay for the the whole thing."
[02:16:20] make them pay for the the whole thing." >> Oh, well, I'm sorry that that's the
[02:16:21] >> Oh, well, I'm sorry that that's the impression that's given, but that was
[02:16:22] impression that's given, but that was never the conversation.
[02:16:24] never the conversation. >> Yeah. Did you did you hear about that
[02:16:26] >> Yeah. Did you did you hear about that Nathaniel at the time or or Dan that
[02:16:29] Nathaniel at the time or or Dan that these guys were going to put 20,000 him
[02:16:30] these guys were going to put 20,000 him and Graeme Cook?
[02:16:32] and Graeme Cook? >> No, it was never mentioned to us and um
[02:16:36] >> No, it was never mentioned to us and um Dan is I think written in the chat.
[02:16:40] Dan is I think written in the chat. >> No.
[02:16:40] >> No. >> Yeah, he's Daniel says no.
[02:16:44] >> Yeah, he's Daniel says no. >> So, Peter,
[02:16:47] >> So, Peter, um the integrity of of your honesty in
[02:16:50] um the integrity of of your honesty in this situation is very much in question.
[02:16:59] Is there a question there?
[02:17:03] Is there a question there? >> No,
[02:17:05] >> No, we've shared the evidence. There's
[02:17:06] we've shared the evidence. There's multiple things that you're sharing that
[02:17:07] multiple things that you're sharing that you you seem to have different truths
[02:17:10] you you seem to have different truths for different audiences.
[02:17:13] But this this is you in our meeting
[02:17:16] But this this is you in our meeting showing me that you're duplicitous in
[02:17:17] showing me that you're duplicitous in your statement about Gary Morgan.
[02:17:19] your statement about Gary Morgan. Depending on your audience,
[02:17:21] Depending on your audience, that's that's a fact of reality. That's
[02:17:23] that's that's a fact of reality. That's not something you can dispute. I have no
[02:17:24] not something you can dispute. I have no question for you. That's you just you
[02:17:26] question for you. That's you just you did this right now. We're all here. I'm
[02:17:28] did this right now. We're all here. I'm not going to pretend we didn't see what
[02:17:29] not going to pretend we didn't see what we saw.
[02:17:31] we saw. So, this makes it difficult to think
[02:17:33] So, this makes it difficult to think that you should be part of any
[02:17:34] that you should be part of any investigation into Gary.
[02:17:39] You should be investigated along with
[02:17:41] You should be investigated along with Gary.
[02:17:44] >> You're welcome to do that if you'd like
[02:17:45] >> You're welcome to do that if you'd like to.
[02:17:46] to. >> I'd rather not. I didn't want to have
[02:17:47] >> I'd rather not. I didn't want to have this meeting. You guys asked for it.
[02:17:51] this meeting. You guys asked for it. What I see here, guys, is a ton of
[02:17:53] What I see here, guys, is a ton of evidence. And I have not heard a good
[02:17:55] evidence. And I have not heard a good explanation for it, Gary, from you,
[02:17:57] explanation for it, Gary, from you, except for you telling me that you
[02:17:58] except for you telling me that you you're a good guy. A ton of evidence and
[02:18:01] you're a good guy. A ton of evidence and those who are covering covering for you,
[02:18:03] those who are covering covering for you, I'll use the term being duplicitous, at
[02:18:06] I'll use the term being duplicitous, at least Peter, being duplicitous in his
[02:18:08] least Peter, being duplicitous in his engagement and in his behavior, being
[02:18:10] engagement and in his behavior, being controlling, being um difficult in this
[02:18:13] controlling, being um difficult in this in this process to try to make it harder
[02:18:15] in this process to try to make it harder and harder until people just give up
[02:18:16] and harder until people just give up because they have no good faith belief
[02:18:18] because they have no good faith belief in it. you spoke as though Ben
[02:18:20] in it. you spoke as though Ben Fitzgerald was um on the fence or
[02:18:23] Fitzgerald was um on the fence or something else like this, but I talked
[02:18:25] something else like this, but I talked to him and he very much believes that
[02:18:26] to him and he very much believes that Gary is guilty and he just lost faith in
[02:18:29] Gary is guilty and he just lost faith in you guys as people who would do anything
[02:18:31] you guys as people who would do anything about it. That was the reality. It
[02:18:33] about it. That was the reality. It wasn't an inconclusive investigation.
[02:18:36] wasn't an inconclusive investigation. That was never what it was. It was a ton
[02:18:38] That was never what it was. It was a ton of evidence, no good explanations
[02:18:40] of evidence, no good explanations alternately, and you writing presumed
[02:18:42] alternately, and you writing presumed innocent, presumed innocent, presumed
[02:18:44] innocent, presumed innocent, presumed innocent
[02:18:45] innocent until everybody just says, "Forget it."
[02:18:47] until everybody just says, "Forget it." And then poor Nathaniel is is forced to
[02:18:49] And then poor Nathaniel is is forced to apologize. Apologize,
[02:18:52] apologize. Apologize, Gary. Please tell me, how am I wrong?
[02:18:56] Gary. Please tell me, how am I wrong? Look at this is a this is a very
[02:18:58] Look at this is a this is a very significant amount of evidence.
[02:19:01] significant amount of evidence. >> Mike, I agree to the objective observer.
[02:19:03] >> Mike, I agree to the objective observer. It looks exactly like that. And I
[02:19:06] It looks exactly like that. And I haven't denied I called that uh the fake
[02:19:09] haven't denied I called that uh the fake Facebook page, but it's it's what I saw.
[02:19:13] Facebook page, but it's it's what I saw. It's what I received. It's what I
[02:19:15] It's what I received. It's what I shared. And I can't give any other
[02:19:18] shared. And I can't give any other explanation for that, but I did not data
[02:19:21] explanation for that, but I did not data mine and I did not look up Facebook.
[02:19:24] mine and I did not look up Facebook. >> Isn't it weird that you've you've you've
[02:19:26] >> Isn't it weird that you've you've you've said this $20,000 to Ben over the phone
[02:19:30] said this $20,000 to Ben over the phone yet at the very end of the the
[02:19:32] yet at the very end of the the conversation, you conclude it with you
[02:19:34] conversation, you conclude it with you will bear the full financial cost.
[02:19:36] will bear the full financial cost. Wouldn't you just think to include that
[02:19:38] Wouldn't you just think to include that in there if that's your summary of the
[02:19:41] in there if that's your summary of the entire your entire position? Can I jump
[02:19:44] entire your entire position? Can I jump in here just for a second with a
[02:19:46] in here just for a second with a question because
[02:19:47] question because >> I've just asked one so if I can just
[02:19:49] >> I've just asked one so if I can just wait for that Alan that'd be great.
[02:19:51] wait for that Alan that'd be great. >> Of course, Chris.
[02:19:54] >> Of course, Chris. Um
[02:19:56] Um I can only tell you
[02:20:01] I I don't have an objective an answer
[02:20:04] I I don't have an objective an answer that's going to satisfy you on that one.
[02:20:05] that's going to satisfy you on that one. Chris,
[02:20:08] Chris, you've wrapped it up. You've wrapped it
[02:20:09] you've wrapped it up. You've wrapped it up and you've said here's my conclusion
[02:20:12] up and you've said here's my conclusion of everything.
[02:20:13] of everything. and you've put in there, you guys will
[02:20:16] and you've put in there, you guys will bear the full weight. You guys will
[02:20:17] bear the full weight. You guys will replace their the cost of the devices.
[02:20:20] replace their the cost of the devices. And just to let you know, it's 600 an
[02:20:22] And just to let you know, it's 600 an hour. That's the investigating team that
[02:20:24] hour. That's the investigating team that I'm selecting. Uh meanwhile, you you're
[02:20:27] I'm selecting. Uh meanwhile, you you're referring to some conversation, who
[02:20:29] referring to some conversation, who knows when, with Ben that Ben doesn't
[02:20:31] knows when, with Ben that Ben doesn't even remember. Wouldn't you have thought
[02:20:33] even remember. Wouldn't you have thought if that was a serious concern?
[02:20:35] if that was a serious concern? gentleman, you put that on your public
[02:20:36] gentleman, you put that on your public statement that this was a major piece
[02:20:39] statement that this was a major piece that you you were you were presenting
[02:20:40] that you you were you were presenting like, "Hey, we put in 20k,
[02:20:44] like, "Hey, we put in 20k, wouldn't you have concluded that if that
[02:20:45] wouldn't you have concluded that if that was really your heart at the time to let
[02:20:48] was really your heart at the time to let them know that they're not going to have
[02:20:49] them know that they're not going to have to bear the full financial cost if you
[02:20:51] to bear the full financial cost if you and Graeme Cook were ready to do that?"
[02:20:54] and Graeme Cook were ready to do that?" >> That's one way of describing the events
[02:20:56] >> That's one way of describing the events that we're talking about. Absolutely.
[02:20:58] that we're talking about. Absolutely. >> How would you describe it?
[02:21:02] >> How would you describe it? >> I don't have an explanation for it.
[02:21:04] >> I don't have an explanation for it. other than the fact that there was a
[02:21:06] other than the fact that there was a broader context in which the
[02:21:08] broader context in which the conversations were taking place and that
[02:21:10] conversations were taking place and that that information was available
[02:21:12] that information was available elsewhere. That's all I'm saying.
[02:21:15] elsewhere. That's all I'm saying. >> I can't find that elsewhere, including
[02:21:17] >> I can't find that elsewhere, including the source of the information. But, uh,
[02:21:20] the source of the information. But, uh, okay.
[02:21:21] okay. >> So, then Peter in a show of, you know,
[02:21:25] >> So, then Peter in a show of, you know, integrity said, I would give 20,000.
[02:21:27] integrity said, I would give 20,000. That was that was legit. We And I said,
[02:21:29] That was that was legit. We And I said, would you still do it today if I choose
[02:21:31] would you still do it today if I choose an investigation company to uh look at
[02:21:33] an investigation company to uh look at the evidence? and he said, "Absolutely."
[02:21:35] the evidence? and he said, "Absolutely." Just with firmly with no doubt in his in
[02:21:37] Just with firmly with no doubt in his in his eyes, "Um, would you still be
[02:21:39] his eyes, "Um, would you still be willing to put up $20,000, you and
[02:21:41] willing to put up $20,000, you and Graham, with an investigator that I
[02:21:43] Graham, with an investigator that I choose?"
[02:21:44] choose?" >> Absolutely.
[02:21:46] >> Absolutely. >> Yeah.
[02:21:47] >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
[02:21:48] >> Yeah. >> I hit him up after our talk and I was
[02:21:50] >> I hit him up after our talk and I was like, "I found Grace Investigations. I
[02:21:51] like, "I found Grace Investigations. I like to get them to do it. We'll submit
[02:21:53] like to get them to do it. We'll submit all the evidence and we'll we'll stand
[02:21:55] all the evidence and we'll we'll stand by whatever results they give." And um
[02:21:57] by whatever results they give." And um yeah, he pulled out.
[02:22:00] yeah, he pulled out. So they're not they're not surprisingly
[02:22:02] So they're not they're not surprisingly he's not interested in uh doing what he
[02:22:04] he's not interested in uh doing what he said he would do. Everything is
[02:22:07] said he would do. Everything is manipulation and control and the way
[02:22:09] manipulation and control and the way that investigation was was structured I
[02:22:11] that investigation was was structured I believe was designed to keep you from
[02:22:15] believe was designed to keep you from getting any forward progress and if for
[02:22:17] getting any forward progress and if for some crazy reason you put up 20 30
[02:22:21] some crazy reason you put up 20 30 $40,000 of your of your own money for
[02:22:24] $40,000 of your of your own money for some some investigation where you don't
[02:22:27] some some investigation where you don't even get to talk to the investigator.
[02:22:28] even get to talk to the investigator. you don't get to control the evidence uh
[02:22:30] you don't get to control the evidence uh that or present the evidence directly to
[02:22:32] that or present the evidence directly to them. It has to go through Gary. Um that
[02:22:35] them. It has to go through Gary. Um that is the immediate result would have been
[02:22:38] is the immediate result would have been okay. He's admitted to this ABC now he's
[02:22:41] okay. He's admitted to this ABC now he's being restored. Now you guys need to be
[02:22:43] being restored. Now you guys need to be quiet about it. It was it was the what
[02:22:46] quiet about it. It was it was the what do they what do they call it? The cards
[02:22:47] do they what do they call it? The cards are stacked. Is that the phrase?
[02:22:50] are stacked. Is that the phrase? Everything was set up.
[02:22:52] Everything was set up. >> In other words, I see Peter McHugh as a
[02:22:53] >> In other words, I see Peter McHugh as a fixer. As very much a fixer. someone who
[02:22:56] fixer. As very much a fixer. someone who is knowingly and intentionally
[02:22:58] is knowingly and intentionally manipulating the situation in order to
[02:23:01] manipulating the situation in order to make sure that the elite guy in this
[02:23:03] make sure that the elite guy in this position, Gary, uh does not have to face
[02:23:06] position, Gary, uh does not have to face accountability
[02:23:14] for us. um it's been 10 years
[02:23:19] for us. um it's been 10 years and uh back then we we were advised to
[02:23:24] and uh back then we we were advised to leave it with God. You've done
[02:23:25] leave it with God. You've done everything you can and to leave this and
[02:23:29] everything you can and to leave this and honestly life kind of went back to
[02:23:30] honestly life kind of went back to normal for us. Uh it was distressing but
[02:23:34] normal for us. Uh it was distressing but we didn't have a grid for anything being
[02:23:37] we didn't have a grid for anything being brought publicly back then. And so we
[02:23:40] brought publicly back then. And so we did as we were told.
[02:23:42] did as we were told. life returned to some form of normality.
[02:23:45] life returned to some form of normality. We we live in a different state now, but
[02:23:48] We we live in a different state now, but yeah, it definitely for a long time was
[02:23:51] yeah, it definitely for a long time was a a hard thing when we thought about
[02:23:54] a a hard thing when we thought about Gary um what was happening there. I know
[02:23:56] Gary um what was happening there. I know for you it's um yeah, but a whole decade
[02:24:00] for you it's um yeah, but a whole decade has gone by and um
[02:24:03] has gone by and um >> we've not spoken about it at all really
[02:24:06] >> we've not spoken about it at all really >> until Chris um approached us just a few
[02:24:09] >> until Chris um approached us just a few months ago and um yeah, I guess Chris a
[02:24:13] months ago and um yeah, I guess Chris a lot of um what has happened. You've had
[02:24:16] lot of um what has happened. You've had a really strong conviction. You came to
[02:24:18] a really strong conviction. You came to us and um yeah, I guess the last few
[02:24:21] us and um yeah, I guess the last few months is is kind of history now. I
[02:24:24] months is is kind of history now. I think that's kind of for us where the
[02:24:26] think that's kind of for us where the story lands. I pray and like we pray and
[02:24:29] story lands. I pray and like we pray and hope that this information is helpful
[02:24:32] hope that this information is helpful and that it it to me feels like the the
[02:24:36] and that it it to me feels like the the right thing to do. Um evil can prosper
[02:24:41] right thing to do. Um evil can prosper but for the silence of a few good men.
[02:24:42] but for the silence of a few good men. And for us it's like we would have liked
[02:24:44] And for us it's like we would have liked other people to say something publicly.
[02:24:48] other people to say something publicly. Um, in fact, we were very surprised at
[02:24:50] Um, in fact, we were very surprised at how easy it seemed, Mike, when um when
[02:24:53] how easy it seemed, Mike, when um when you put something out. So, but yes,
[02:24:55] you put something out. So, but yes, Chris, you
[02:24:56] Chris, you >> you've really um had an amazing con
[02:24:58] >> you've really um had an amazing con conviction over the last few months.
[02:25:07] >> Yeah. And just reading those email
[02:25:10] >> Yeah. And just reading those email threads, just touching back on that as a
[02:25:13] threads, just touching back on that as a whole, you know, going through it all
[02:25:15] whole, you know, going through it all and you're like, it l it looked like
[02:25:18] and you're like, it l it looked like from one of those that Gary was going to
[02:25:19] from one of those that Gary was going to pick the investigator
[02:25:21] pick the investigator and then everything had to be be run
[02:25:24] and then everything had to be be run through. I remember one thing you said,
[02:25:25] through. I remember one thing you said, you can't Peter, don't show Gary this
[02:25:28] you can't Peter, don't show Gary this because then he'll obviously be able to,
[02:25:31] because then he'll obviously be able to, you know, alter things or shift things
[02:25:33] you know, alter things or shift things if he sees that, but then we can find
[02:25:35] if he sees that, but then we can find the truth if if he doesn't see that. And
[02:25:37] the truth if if he doesn't see that. And Peter was like, "No, Gary sees
[02:25:39] Peter was like, "No, Gary sees everything. Gary's going to see this."
[02:25:41] everything. Gary's going to see this." And it was like Gary calling the shots.
[02:25:43] And it was like Gary calling the shots. Initially, Peter was like, "Okay, maybe
[02:25:45] Initially, Peter was like, "Okay, maybe if you have to fly down to Melbourne,
[02:25:47] if you have to fly down to Melbourne, you could meet the investigator." But
[02:25:49] you could meet the investigator." But then kind of talks to Gary about it. And
[02:25:51] then kind of talks to Gary about it. And sorry, Gary said no. But Gary's Gary's
[02:25:54] sorry, Gary said no. But Gary's Gary's calling the shots on his own
[02:25:55] calling the shots on his own investigation about himself with an
[02:25:57] investigation about himself with an investigator that
[02:25:58] investigator that >> he
[02:25:59] >> he >> It's transparent corruption. Totally
[02:26:01] >> It's transparent corruption. Totally transparent corruption.
[02:26:03] transparent corruption. >> Yeah. So weird. and the hoops, you know,
[02:26:05] >> Yeah. So weird. and the hoops, you know, and the the names, you know, like
[02:26:06] and the the names, you know, like intimidating, you know, David Wagner was
[02:26:08] intimidating, you know, David Wagner was was kept a breast of all this
[02:26:10] was kept a breast of all this >> that the Lord is bringing to us
[02:26:13] >> that the Lord is bringing to us authenticity and integrity. Again,
[02:26:16] authenticity and integrity. Again, >> I believe that there is something that
[02:26:18] >> I believe that there is something that is going to mark this season in
[02:26:20] is going to mark this season in prophetic ministry and it is
[02:26:23] prophetic ministry and it is authenticity and integrity.
[02:26:26] authenticity and integrity. Graeme Cook, you know, these are massive
[02:26:29] Graeme Cook, you know, these are massive names that are quite intimidating to,
[02:26:31] names that are quite intimidating to, you know, to to to for you guys to feel
[02:26:33] you know, to to to for you guys to feel like you're up against, you know, the
[02:26:36] like you're up against, you know, the Christendom and and it's it's a few of
[02:26:39] Christendom and and it's it's a few of you guys trying to um to get truth out.
[02:26:43] you guys trying to um to get truth out. And then this Yeah, the stipulations on
[02:26:45] And then this Yeah, the stipulations on the apologies. Yet there there's no
[02:26:47] the apologies. Yet there there's no apology stipulated for Gary if he's
[02:26:49] apology stipulated for Gary if he's found guilty. not even an ownership or a
[02:26:51] found guilty. not even an ownership or a recognition if he's found guilty was
[02:26:53] recognition if he's found guilty was stipulated,
[02:26:54] stipulated, >> right?
[02:26:55] >> right? >> He he has to go through this
[02:26:56] >> He he has to go through this investigation. This investigator
[02:27:00] investigation. This investigator comes to the conclusion maybe that he's
[02:27:02] comes to the conclusion maybe that he's guilty.
[02:27:04] guilty. Still doesn't need to acknowledge it.
[02:27:06] Still doesn't need to acknowledge it. Still could disagree with the findings
[02:27:08] Still could disagree with the findings and just get restored either way, you
[02:27:10] and just get restored either way, you know, like it just didn't feel. And then
[02:27:12] know, like it just didn't feel. And then there was this whole device. It was all
[02:27:14] there was this whole device. It was all about the devices. The devices. There
[02:27:16] about the devices. The devices. There were pictures of him at some point after
[02:27:19] were pictures of him at some point after he got hacked at the Apple store, wasn't
[02:27:21] he got hacked at the Apple store, wasn't it? And it it looked to be like he was
[02:27:23] it? And it it looked to be like he was replacing his devices anyway. So, we
[02:27:26] replacing his devices anyway. So, we couldn't There was no assurance through
[02:27:27] couldn't There was no assurance through that process that these are just brand
[02:27:29] that process that these are just brand new devices and all the everything was
[02:27:32] new devices and all the everything was hacked. It'd been what 7 months he had
[02:27:35] hacked. It'd been what 7 months he had to
[02:27:36] to >> Yeah.
[02:27:37] >> Yeah. >> to to do. It wasn't like you It wasn't
[02:27:39] >> to to do. It wasn't like you It wasn't like, okay, it's that it's week one.
[02:27:42] like, okay, it's that it's week one. Let's get these devices off you before
[02:27:44] Let's get these devices off you before you have a chance to alter things. It's
[02:27:46] you have a chance to alter things. It's like seven months later.
[02:27:49] like seven months later. >> So, how would the devices this is a
[02:27:51] >> So, how would the devices this is a complete distraction? I don't need to
[02:27:53] complete distraction? I don't need to see Gary's cell phone to know that he
[02:27:56] see Gary's cell phone to know that he looked up words on Facebook. You need
[02:27:57] looked up words on Facebook. You need you need the the video of him
[02:27:59] you need the the video of him prophesying. You need the corresponding
[02:28:00] prophesying. You need the corresponding Facebook data available. You need the
[02:28:02] Facebook data available. You need the fake Facebook page that Haley
[02:28:05] fake Facebook page that Haley wonderfully made and then him calling it
[02:28:07] wonderfully made and then him calling it out. Like, we've already got all the
[02:28:08] out. Like, we've already got all the evidence. This demand for devices and
[02:28:11] evidence. This demand for devices and then demanding your guys' devices is is
[02:28:14] then demanding your guys' devices is is to me it comes off like an intimidation
[02:28:16] to me it comes off like an intimidation tactic. You're going to we're going to
[02:28:18] tactic. You're going to we're going to look into what you maybe you have
[02:28:20] look into what you maybe you have something to hide. Maybe you've got
[02:28:21] something to hide. Maybe you've got something that you don't want people to
[02:28:23] something that you don't want people to know about. It's every single thing
[02:28:26] know about. It's every single thing about it looks wrong and and evil. Um
[02:28:30] about it looks wrong and and evil. Um and cuz so cover up culture and I use
[02:28:32] and cuz so cover up culture and I use the phrase and I want people to
[02:28:33] the phrase and I want people to understand it because I want them to
[02:28:34] understand it because I want them to have a name for something if they've
[02:28:36] have a name for something if they've experienced it and go like that's what
[02:28:37] experienced it and go like that's what that was. It wasn't just you had a fake
[02:28:39] that was. It wasn't just you had a fake prophet. You had a network of leadership
[02:28:42] prophet. You had a network of leadership who was unwilling to do the biblical
[02:28:44] who was unwilling to do the biblical thing, which is simply get the evidence
[02:28:46] thing, which is simply get the evidence that the guy's guilty. Call him out
[02:28:48] that the guy's guilty. Call him out publicly. Cleanse the church. You can
[02:28:50] publicly. Cleanse the church. You can still seek forgiveness for him. You can
[02:28:52] still seek forgiveness for him. You can still seek like for the person's
[02:28:53] still seek like for the person's well-being, but you you've got to get
[02:28:56] well-being, but you you've got to get the leavenven out from the lump or it
[02:28:58] the leavenven out from the lump or it will leaven the whole lump. And that's
[02:28:59] will leaven the whole lump. And that's the thing that scares me the most is
[02:29:01] the thing that scares me the most is it's like you wonder how many people and
[02:29:03] it's like you wonder how many people and how far does it go? But um but yeah, you
[02:29:06] how far does it go? But um but yeah, you guys are doing the right thing. was the
[02:29:07] guys are doing the right thing. was the the continued hurt as well, I think, was
[02:29:10] the continued hurt as well, I think, was seeing leaders that we knew knew and
[02:29:13] seeing leaders that we knew knew and still minister with him and
[02:29:16] still minister with him and >> Right. You mentioned uh Chayon and Bill
[02:29:18] >> Right. You mentioned uh Chayon and Bill Johnson were two people that that we
[02:29:20] Johnson were two people that that we have good reason to believe knew about
[02:29:22] have good reason to believe knew about Gary Morgan and then went on to do stuff
[02:29:24] Gary Morgan and then went on to do stuff alongside of him afterwards.
[02:29:26] alongside of him afterwards. >> Yeah. A year after. So we knew we knew
[02:29:29] >> Yeah. A year after. So we knew we knew that Bill Johnson knew about the whole
[02:29:32] that Bill Johnson knew about the whole story, Gary Morgan, the whole the whole
[02:29:34] story, Gary Morgan, the whole the whole shebang
[02:29:36] shebang and he did a conference with Graeme Cook
[02:29:39] and he did a conference with Graeme Cook and Gary the very next year. And that
[02:29:41] and Gary the very next year. And that was specifically hurtful for uh or
[02:29:43] was specifically hurtful for uh or disappointing or sad because these are
[02:29:46] disappointing or sad because these are the heroes in the faith that you you
[02:29:48] the heroes in the faith that you you look up to. And I I still think he is a
[02:29:51] look up to. And I I still think he is a hero in so many areas. It's just I think
[02:29:55] hero in so many areas. It's just I think we're just trying to say does anybody
[02:29:57] we're just trying to say does anybody care about a guy that might be
[02:30:01] care about a guy that might be doing something wrong, you know, like is
[02:30:04] doing something wrong, you know, like is there is there any care for the people,
[02:30:06] there is there any care for the people, you know, that might be suffering, you
[02:30:09] you know, that might be suffering, you know, that as a result of these these
[02:30:12] know, that as a result of these these things? Chan was a breast of the
[02:30:14] things? Chan was a breast of the situation because he was the guy that
[02:30:16] situation because he was the guy that was over pastor Katherine. So he he was
[02:30:19] was over pastor Katherine. So he he was getting the phone calls like, "What do
[02:30:20] getting the phone calls like, "What do we do here?" You know, I I'm not 100%
[02:30:23] we do here?" You know, I I'm not 100% but I believe Peter or Gary, somebody
[02:30:26] but I believe Peter or Gary, somebody was was liazisoning with him on the
[02:30:27] was was liazisoning with him on the other side. And the very next year
[02:30:30] other side. And the very next year again, he's ministering with Gary
[02:30:32] again, he's ministering with Gary Morgan. Uh Gary introducing him
[02:30:34] Morgan. Uh Gary introducing him >> as we welcome Shayon to come in Jesus
[02:30:38] >> as we welcome Shayon to come in Jesus name. Amen. Bless you Shay.
[02:30:40] name. Amen. Bless you Shay. >> Thank you man. Thank you so much. Thank
[02:30:42] >> Thank you man. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. You know, and
[02:30:44] you so much. Thank you. You know, and it's like, God, is there somebody is
[02:30:46] it's like, God, is there somebody is there somebody that at least says, "I'm
[02:30:48] there somebody that at least says, "I'm not going to I mean, at the very least,
[02:30:51] not going to I mean, at the very least, Pastor Katherine never had him back,
[02:30:53] Pastor Katherine never had him back, never published another prophetic word,
[02:30:56] never published another prophetic word, you know, never had any public
[02:30:59] you know, never had any public affiliation at the very least, but there
[02:31:02] affiliation at the very least, but there were still many people, you know, I I'd
[02:31:04] were still many people, you know, I I'd spoken to so many leaders in the recent
[02:31:06] spoken to so many leaders in the recent months that said, "Oh, yes, yes, I
[02:31:09] months that said, "Oh, yes, yes, I believe that he was guilty. Oh, by the
[02:31:10] believe that he was guilty. Oh, by the way, please don't use my name. I do not
[02:31:13] way, please don't use my name. I do not want to be involved.
[02:31:15] want to be involved. And it's like,
[02:31:17] And it's like, yeah, it's just frustrating because
[02:31:19] yeah, it's just frustrating because you're like, what it means is for me it
[02:31:23] you're like, what it means is for me it feels like it's reputation over
[02:31:24] feels like it's reputation over character. If this is going to drag me
[02:31:26] character. If this is going to drag me into some sort of thing and I get like
[02:31:28] into some sort of thing and I get like this like exposure guy
[02:31:32] this like exposure guy name or, you know, cuz us as
[02:31:34] name or, you know, cuz us as charismatics like we we just cop it. The
[02:31:37] charismatics like we we just cop it. The second you you say you give a prophetic
[02:31:40] second you you say you give a prophetic word, it's like, "Oh, you're clearly
[02:31:41] word, it's like, "Oh, you're clearly false." cuz there's no such thing as
[02:31:43] false." cuz there's no such thing as prophecy. So there's a thousand
[02:31:44] prophecy. So there's a thousand channels, there's thousand videos, but
[02:31:47] channels, there's thousand videos, but we're just we're all we're arguing for
[02:31:49] we're just we're all we're arguing for is the truth. People should have be able
[02:31:53] is the truth. People should have be able to see all this. And if you still want
[02:31:54] to see all this. And if you still want to go to to visit Gary Morgan and and
[02:31:57] to go to to visit Gary Morgan and and listen to him speak after knowing the
[02:31:59] listen to him speak after knowing the these things, that's that's your call,
[02:32:01] these things, that's that's your call, you know, but nobody there was just
[02:32:04] you know, but nobody there was just nobody willing to do it, Mike. And we
[02:32:05] nobody willing to do it, Mike. And we didn't want to do it either. And then,
[02:32:07] didn't want to do it either. And then, you know, we're grateful that that you
[02:32:09] you know, we're grateful that that you are somebody that um was Yeah. happy to
[02:32:12] are somebody that um was Yeah. happy to help.
[02:32:21] Nathaniel and Haley, is there anything
[02:32:23] Nathaniel and Haley, is there anything that you want to share? Kind of you you
[02:32:25] that you want to share? Kind of you you kind of come to the end of your story on
[02:32:27] kind of come to the end of your story on this stuff. Is there anything you want
[02:32:29] this stuff. Is there anything you want to share as far as like what do you hope
[02:32:31] to share as far as like what do you hope go happens from here or what would maybe
[02:32:33] go happens from here or what would maybe your message be to just churches in
[02:32:35] your message be to just churches in general about how they can handle this
[02:32:37] general about how they can handle this kind of stuff in the future um after
[02:32:39] kind of stuff in the future um after having seen it so up in close like you
[02:32:41] having seen it so up in close like you have and obviously we're still
[02:32:44] have and obviously we're still processing through this so we're aimed
[02:32:47] processing through this so we're aimed to just share our experience but I guess
[02:32:49] to just share our experience but I guess if there's anything I could say it's
[02:32:51] if there's anything I could say it's that if something happens in your church
[02:32:55] that if something happens in your church publicly
[02:32:57] publicly um it is I believe it's my personal
[02:32:59] um it is I believe it's my personal opinion that it's your responsibility to
[02:33:02] opinion that it's your responsibility to do something about it publicly. People
[02:33:04] do something about it publicly. People deserve to know and I I believe a lot of
[02:33:07] deserve to know and I I believe a lot of people will be healed with just
[02:33:10] people will be healed with just transparency. And so I guess I want to
[02:33:13] transparency. And so I guess I want to keep it simple. We don't have all the
[02:33:15] keep it simple. We don't have all the answers right now. We've just tried to
[02:33:16] answers right now. We've just tried to tell our story. But I sure know this
[02:33:19] tell our story. But I sure know this would be a lot easier if people knew
[02:33:21] would be a lot easier if people knew about this 10 years ago. And so I think
[02:33:26] about this 10 years ago. And so I think my hope is just for transparency. And if
[02:33:30] my hope is just for transparency. And if it's done publicly from a place where
[02:33:33] it's done publicly from a place where perhaps someone's been platformed, then
[02:33:36] perhaps someone's been platformed, then I I do believe it's a a public um
[02:33:39] I I do believe it's a a public um responsibility. Chris, you might want to
[02:33:41] responsibility. Chris, you might want to talk to that. But that's like that's
[02:33:44] talk to that. But that's like that's Yeah, that's that's my opinion.
[02:33:47] Yeah, that's that's my opinion. >> Yeah, agreed. I feel um
[02:33:50] >> Yeah, agreed. I feel um I feel the same thing when it comes to
[02:33:52] I feel the same thing when it comes to going, okay,
[02:33:54] going, okay, it's not it's not an attack to destroy
[02:34:00] it's not it's not an attack to destroy uh the church or, you know, to burn
[02:34:02] uh the church or, you know, to burn everything down. We're not of that
[02:34:04] everything down. We're not of that heart. Our our actual heart is for the
[02:34:06] heart. Our our actual heart is for the church. My heart is for the the people
[02:34:09] church. My heart is for the the people and and the leaders. You know, I I
[02:34:13] and and the leaders. You know, I I firmly believe that Pastor Katherine's
[02:34:16] firmly believe that Pastor Katherine's heart is in the right place when it
[02:34:18] heart is in the right place when it comes to wanting to win the lost. You
[02:34:20] comes to wanting to win the lost. You know, wanting to see souls and lives
[02:34:23] know, wanting to see souls and lives change. And I recommended somebody go to
[02:34:26] change. And I recommended somebody go to Glory City the other day. You know, I
[02:34:28] Glory City the other day. You know, I was like, "Oh, this this would be a good
[02:34:30] was like, "Oh, this this would be a good church for you. For what you're telling
[02:34:31] church for you. For what you're telling me you're searching for, this would be a
[02:34:33] me you're searching for, this would be a great church." My heart is is not to
[02:34:36] great church." My heart is is not to destroy the building, but I see a a
[02:34:38] destroy the building, but I see a a gaping hole in the church. And I want
[02:34:42] gaping hole in the church. And I want that part just rebuilt. You know, I want
[02:34:45] that part just rebuilt. You know, I want us to go healthy process. There's clear
[02:34:48] us to go healthy process. There's clear scriptural direction for us to go, okay,
[02:34:51] scriptural direction for us to go, okay, this is healthy, this is unhealthy. And
[02:34:53] this is healthy, this is unhealthy. And we can talk about that, you know, and
[02:34:56] we can talk about that, you know, and it's not it's not a bad thing. You
[02:34:58] it's not it's not a bad thing. You shouldn't you shouldn't have a bad name.
[02:35:00] shouldn't you shouldn't have a bad name. If you if you say that uh I think this
[02:35:04] If you if you say that uh I think this guy is is unhealthy, this guy might be
[02:35:06] guy is is unhealthy, this guy might be doing this or might be doing that. You
[02:35:08] doing this or might be doing that. You don't even need to firmly state. You can
[02:35:09] don't even need to firmly state. You can state the truth as you see it as we've
[02:35:12] state the truth as you see it as we've done today. We're just saying people can
[02:35:15] done today. We're just saying people can make up their own minds, but they should
[02:35:17] make up their own minds, but they should have all the information before they
[02:35:18] have all the information before they they go ahead and and do that. And not
[02:35:21] they go ahead and and do that. And not in the dark or I'll just tell this
[02:35:23] in the dark or I'll just tell this person over here.
[02:35:25] person over here. But those people over that church, they
[02:35:27] But those people over that church, they can
[02:35:29] can be in the dark and and they don't need
[02:35:30] be in the dark and and they don't need to know the truth or you know. So
[02:35:33] to know the truth or you know. So it yeah that my heart is still for the
[02:35:35] it yeah that my heart is still for the church and for these leaders. And I
[02:35:37] church and for these leaders. And I don't think it's that hard to it is
[02:35:39] don't think it's that hard to it is hard. No I won't I won't say that it is
[02:35:40] hard. No I won't I won't say that it is hard to
[02:35:43] hard to to take that step to say we don't
[02:35:46] to take that step to say we don't believe we have confidence or good faith
[02:35:49] believe we have confidence or good faith in person X or person Y anymore based on
[02:35:53] in person X or person Y anymore based on these reasons. That's a difficult thing,
[02:35:54] these reasons. That's a difficult thing, but it's a necessary thing. And I think
[02:35:56] but it's a necessary thing. And I think it's what God is doing in the wider
[02:35:59] it's what God is doing in the wider community. When I felt it, I saw your
[02:36:01] community. When I felt it, I saw your video, Mike, on Shawn BS,
[02:36:04] video, Mike, on Shawn BS, uh, the sixhour one, um, persevered and,
[02:36:08] uh, the sixhour one, um, persevered and, uh, but it burnt in my heart from then
[02:36:11] uh, but it burnt in my heart from then that I I felt like this is a necessary
[02:36:14] that I I felt like this is a necessary thing and this is what God's doing. And
[02:36:16] thing and this is what God's doing. And and I asked God one night, I was
[02:36:18] and I asked God one night, I was praying. I said, "Look, is this anything
[02:36:19] praying. I said, "Look, is this anything you do you want me to have anything to
[02:36:21] you do you want me to have anything to do with this God?" And very clearly that
[02:36:24] do with this God?" And very clearly that night, he gave me a dream. I literally
[02:36:26] night, he gave me a dream. I literally prayed before I went to bed and boom, he
[02:36:28] prayed before I went to bed and boom, he spoke, you know, that this was something
[02:36:29] spoke, you know, that this was something that he wanted to do for his church. And
[02:36:33] that he wanted to do for his church. And I think that's the only reason that I've
[02:36:36] I think that's the only reason that I've continued down this this path, saying,
[02:36:39] continued down this this path, saying, "Let's bring some transparency. Let's
[02:36:41] "Let's bring some transparency. Let's just bring the facts as we know them."
[02:36:43] just bring the facts as we know them." People can make up their own minds
[02:36:45] People can make up their own minds again, but I felt like this is something
[02:36:47] again, but I felt like this is something that God was on and pushing me and
[02:36:49] that God was on and pushing me and encouraging me and and Nathaniel and
[02:36:51] encouraging me and and Nathaniel and Haley. I know you feel God and and so
[02:36:56] Haley. I know you feel God and and so our heart is honestly for the church and
[02:36:58] our heart is honestly for the church and for the leaders and these guys are not
[02:37:01] for the leaders and these guys are not uh I'm not calling people that that
[02:37:04] uh I'm not calling people that that don't expose or the people that I spoke
[02:37:06] don't expose or the people that I spoke to that already knew or had a belief
[02:37:08] to that already knew or had a belief reard Gary Morgan that asked me not to
[02:37:11] reard Gary Morgan that asked me not to talk about their their name or their
[02:37:13] talk about their their name or their involvement.
[02:37:15] involvement. Many people don't want to have that. I'm
[02:37:18] Many people don't want to have that. I'm just saying that if you took that extra
[02:37:21] just saying that if you took that extra step, it would make a well-rounded,
[02:37:23] step, it would make a well-rounded, healthy church.
[02:37:24] healthy church. >> That's the agenda is bringing health and
[02:37:27] >> That's the agenda is bringing health and well-being into the body of Christ and
[02:37:29] well-being into the body of Christ and following what scripture says and
[02:37:30] following what scripture says and undoing um that sort of unintentionally
[02:37:34] undoing um that sort of unintentionally we've absorbed this idea that you don't
[02:37:36] we've absorbed this idea that you don't follow what scripture says. When it
[02:37:38] follow what scripture says. When it comes to accountability with leaders,
[02:37:39] comes to accountability with leaders, you do it with people usually in
[02:37:41] you do it with people usually in churches. often someone who's just a
[02:37:43] churches. often someone who's just a random member of a church might have
[02:37:44] random member of a church might have accountability, but the but the
[02:37:45] accountability, but the but the leadership often is it's like a
[02:37:48] leadership often is it's like a protected class. Um, and that's
[02:37:50] protected class. Um, and that's unfortunate. Uh, and they should be
[02:37:53] unfortunate. Uh, and they should be treated with great respect and love and
[02:37:55] treated with great respect and love and care and they get false accusations. I
[02:37:57] care and they get false accusations. I do. Every leader does. But, but if we
[02:38:00] do. Every leader does. But, but if we don't have a way to deal with those who
[02:38:04] don't have a way to deal with those who are manipulating or abusing or taking
[02:38:06] are manipulating or abusing or taking advantage of the body of Christ, then
[02:38:08] advantage of the body of Christ, then we're leaving the sheep unguarded. So,
[02:38:10] we're leaving the sheep unguarded. So, um, I'm I'm super grateful, Nathaniel
[02:38:13] um, I'm I'm super grateful, Nathaniel and Haley. You guys are about to check
[02:38:14] and Haley. You guys are about to check out for this part of the video and I'm
[02:38:16] out for this part of the video and I'm super grateful for you guys telling your
[02:38:17] super grateful for you guys telling your story. Uh, thank you so much for being
[02:38:19] story. Uh, thank you so much for being willing to do that because your story is
[02:38:22] willing to do that because your story is actually mirrored in a lot of other
[02:38:23] actually mirrored in a lot of other stories. People listening right now will
[02:38:25] stories. People listening right now will be listening to this video going that
[02:38:27] be listening to this video going that was us we had we had a mirror
[02:38:30] was us we had we had a mirror experience. We we we tried to do
[02:38:32] experience. We we we tried to do something in integrity. It was turned
[02:38:33] something in integrity. It was turned against us. We were attacked. We didn't
[02:38:35] against us. We were attacked. We didn't have the sort of uh authority in the in
[02:38:37] have the sort of uh authority in the in that area to do much more. and then we
[02:38:39] that area to do much more. and then we were left confused. Um, but hopefully
[02:38:42] were left confused. Um, but hopefully this is uh your vindication, I hope.
[02:38:46] this is uh your vindication, I hope. >> Thanks so much, Mike. And yeah, we do
[02:38:49] >> Thanks so much, Mike. And yeah, we do really pray that this will will help
[02:38:50] really pray that this will will help people.
[02:38:59] >> Editor Mike here. I am going to give you
[02:39:01] >> Editor Mike here. I am going to give you guys the confrontation call in full.
[02:39:03] guys the confrontation call in full. That's why this video is very, very
[02:39:05] That's why this video is very, very long. Half of the reason anyways. But
[02:39:08] long. Half of the reason anyways. But before I do that, there's a situation
[02:39:10] before I do that, there's a situation that has just been getting more and more
[02:39:12] that has just been getting more and more uh heavy as far as my awareness of it.
[02:39:14] uh heavy as far as my awareness of it. And it's about a guy named Larry
[02:39:16] And it's about a guy named Larry Sebastian. According to a ton of
[02:39:18] Sebastian. According to a ton of witnesses, he is a very abusive pastor.
[02:39:20] witnesses, he is a very abusive pastor. Now, that phrase I just said is kind of
[02:39:22] Now, that phrase I just said is kind of important. According to a ton of
[02:39:24] important. According to a ton of witnesses, he's a very abusive pastor.
[02:39:27] witnesses, he's a very abusive pastor. And it relates to this stuff with Gary
[02:39:28] And it relates to this stuff with Gary Morgan and Peter McHugh. Because Gary
[02:39:30] Morgan and Peter McHugh. Because Gary Morgan, he prophesied in a way that
[02:39:32] Morgan, he prophesied in a way that further enabled Larry to harm people.
[02:39:34] further enabled Larry to harm people. That is, I believe, a fake prophecy that
[02:39:36] That is, I believe, a fake prophecy that was leveraged to enable an abuser. And
[02:39:39] was leveraged to enable an abuser. And Peter McHugh, he was personally involved
[02:39:41] Peter McHugh, he was personally involved in dealing with the fallout of Larry's
[02:39:43] in dealing with the fallout of Larry's sins in a way that raises serious red
[02:39:45] sins in a way that raises serious red flags. You're about to hear about it.
[02:39:47] flags. You're about to hear about it. This part of the video is for that
[02:39:49] This part of the video is for that community, for those who have been hurt
[02:39:51] community, for those who have been hurt by Larry Sebastian. I hope that this
[02:39:54] by Larry Sebastian. I hope that this brings more light to your situation and
[02:39:56] brings more light to your situation and brings help to you guys. And now I'm
[02:39:58] brings help to you guys. And now I'm going to pass the video off to Chris and
[02:40:01] going to pass the video off to Chris and to Karen who are able to share with us
[02:40:03] to Karen who are able to share with us some of the stuff related to Larry
[02:40:05] some of the stuff related to Larry Sebastian. Hey Mike. Um you asked me to
[02:40:09] Sebastian. Hey Mike. Um you asked me to look into the um Larry Sebastian Casey
[02:40:12] look into the um Larry Sebastian Casey City Church thing. So here's what I've
[02:40:15] City Church thing. So here's what I've come up with. It's a minefield. Let me
[02:40:18] come up with. It's a minefield. Let me try to break it down from just the
[02:40:20] try to break it down from just the facts.
[02:40:21] facts. 2009 Gary prophesies 3 days out from
[02:40:25] 2009 Gary prophesies 3 days out from Larry buying a building. So Larry's
[02:40:27] Larry buying a building. So Larry's going to buy this building. People are
[02:40:29] going to buy this building. People are excited. He meets Gary Morgan. Gary
[02:40:32] excited. He meets Gary Morgan. Gary says, "You're going to be signing
[02:40:34] says, "You're going to be signing something." So let's listen to that. Now
[02:40:35] something." So let's listen to that. Now I
[02:40:36] I >> met Gary Morgan for the first time and
[02:40:38] >> met Gary Morgan for the first time and he said he had a word for us. So the
[02:40:40] he said he had a word for us. So the word you know it was a fairly lengthy
[02:40:42] word you know it was a fairly lengthy word but just the part where he where he
[02:40:45] word but just the part where he where he mentioned he said that I see you sitting
[02:40:48] mentioned he said that I see you sitting in front uh and about to sign three
[02:40:51] in front uh and about to sign three different documents because uh there's
[02:40:53] different documents because uh there's there's a there's a huge offer that is
[02:40:55] there's a there's a huge offer that is coming your way and he said and dude
[02:40:57] coming your way and he said and dude it's large right that building was a
[02:41:00] it's large right that building was a huge step of faith for all these guys
[02:41:02] huge step of faith for all these guys like they didn't feel like they could
[02:41:04] like they didn't feel like they could achieve that in the natural it was like
[02:41:06] achieve that in the natural it was like this the way they tell it a big step of
[02:41:09] this the way they tell it a big step of faith faith. So, okay, we're going in.
[02:41:12] faith faith. So, okay, we're going in. And now they've got this prophetic
[02:41:14] And now they've got this prophetic credibility, um, this backup, uh, that
[02:41:16] credibility, um, this backup, uh, that this is God's thing.
[02:41:20] this is God's thing. Great. Then the pressure builds from a
[02:41:23] Great. Then the pressure builds from a number of different reasons. There's a
[02:41:26] number of different reasons. There's a leadership spill. There's a call from
[02:41:27] leadership spill. There's a call from the elders at the time for Larry's
[02:41:30] the elders at the time for Larry's resignation. Larry, you need to step
[02:41:31] resignation. Larry, you need to step down. Larry refuses.
[02:41:34] down. Larry refuses. Uh, then puts it to a vote. Me or them?
[02:41:37] Uh, then puts it to a vote. Me or them? That's the situation. And this is in
[02:41:39] That's the situation. And this is in 2013. Now, we know that Peter um Mchugh,
[02:41:43] 2013. Now, we know that Peter um Mchugh, we know that Gary Morgan and Larry, they
[02:41:45] we know that Gary Morgan and Larry, they all met together at that time.
[02:41:49] all met together at that time. As far beyond that, I don't know. Now,
[02:41:52] As far beyond that, I don't know. Now, flash forward 10 years in 2023. I want
[02:41:55] flash forward 10 years in 2023. I want to introduce a man named Kevin Manning.
[02:41:58] to introduce a man named Kevin Manning. So, Kevin Manning is now one of the most
[02:42:00] So, Kevin Manning is now one of the most senior elders. I think he was the
[02:42:02] senior elders. I think he was the associate pastor, but he was on the
[02:42:03] associate pastor, but he was on the eldership team.
[02:42:05] eldership team. All of these stories, all of these
[02:42:07] All of these stories, all of these claims of abuse come out of the woodwork
[02:42:10] claims of abuse come out of the woodwork to Kevin and he has to confront Larry.
[02:42:13] to Kevin and he has to confront Larry. Sebastian. He goes to Larry and he says,
[02:42:15] Sebastian. He goes to Larry and he says, "Larry, I need you to step down." Asks
[02:42:18] "Larry, I need you to step down." Asks for his resignation. Basically, Larry
[02:42:20] for his resignation. Basically, Larry says, "No, I'm not going to do that."
[02:42:23] says, "No, I'm not going to do that." Now, this puts Kevin in a quandry. Larry
[02:42:26] Now, this puts Kevin in a quandry. Larry in a quandry. What are we going to do?
[02:42:28] in a quandry. What are we going to do? So, Larry
[02:42:30] So, Larry doesn't attend the next few services.
[02:42:32] doesn't attend the next few services. Kevin calls MFI. Introducing MFI,
[02:42:36] Kevin calls MFI. Introducing MFI, Ministers Fellowship International.
[02:42:39] Ministers Fellowship International. Okay, this is a a organization that I
[02:42:42] Okay, this is a a organization that I think their slogan is something like
[02:42:44] think their slogan is something like healthy pastors, healthy churches. Kevin
[02:42:47] healthy pastors, healthy churches. Kevin calls the state leader. The state leader
[02:42:49] calls the state leader. The state leader says, "What should we do?" Kevin says,
[02:42:51] says, "What should we do?" Kevin says, "I think we need an investigation. We
[02:42:54] "I think we need an investigation. We need people to come in that don't know
[02:42:56] need people to come in that don't know me and don't know Larry."
[02:42:58] me and don't know Larry." Now, Larry uh I guess thought that idea
[02:43:01] Now, Larry uh I guess thought that idea was um had some merit because they got
[02:43:05] was um had some merit because they got an interim eldership committee to come
[02:43:07] an interim eldership committee to come in.
[02:43:09] in. Larry was involved in picking all of the
[02:43:12] Larry was involved in picking all of the people that came in to investigate
[02:43:15] people that came in to investigate if Larry is or not abusive. Larry helped
[02:43:19] if Larry is or not abusive. Larry helped pick all th those people. He at least
[02:43:22] pick all th those people. He at least knew four out of the five. Now, Kevin
[02:43:26] knew four out of the five. Now, Kevin was not Kevin didn't even know that that
[02:43:29] was not Kevin didn't even know that that meeting was was happening and was not
[02:43:31] meeting was was happening and was not involved in in in who to select.
[02:43:35] involved in in in who to select. I want to introduce to you Johnny
[02:43:37] I want to introduce to you Johnny Scrogggins.
[02:43:39] Scrogggins. Johnny Scrogggins is the Australasian
[02:43:41] Johnny Scrogggins is the Australasian head of MFI. When he heard about it, he
[02:43:44] head of MFI. When he heard about it, he got in a plane and uh and flew straight
[02:43:47] got in a plane and uh and flew straight down to Larry's church. I just want to
[02:43:50] down to Larry's church. I just want to play a clip from Kevin talking about uh
[02:43:53] play a clip from Kevin talking about uh what happened at that time
[02:43:55] what happened at that time >> between that Saturday
[02:43:58] >> between that Saturday 2 and 1/2 hours with Johnny and that
[02:44:01] 2 and 1/2 hours with Johnny and that Monday in the eldership meeting both
[02:44:03] Monday in the eldership meeting both Johnny and Clara there at no point did
[02:44:06] Johnny and Clara there at no point did they or Larry or Christa ask about
[02:44:10] they or Larry or Christa ask about anyone who had been affected by Larry
[02:44:13] anyone who had been affected by Larry and we're not talking one or two or
[02:44:15] and we're not talking one or two or three we're talking a large cohort of
[02:44:18] three we're talking a large cohort of people. I was sitting in in a pub with
[02:44:23] people. I was sitting in in a pub with Johnny and uh where we were meeting and
[02:44:28] Johnny and uh where we were meeting and after listening to him talk about how
[02:44:32] after listening to him talk about how Larry and Christa are going to be back
[02:44:34] Larry and Christa are going to be back in church on Sunday, Larry and Christ
[02:44:36] in church on Sunday, Larry and Christ are going to be back at work. Uh
[02:44:38] are going to be back at work. Uh regardless of my reasons that I gave
[02:44:42] regardless of my reasons that I gave him, I'll go through those in a second
[02:44:43] him, I'll go through those in a second as well as to why that was not a good
[02:44:46] as well as to why that was not a good thing. Um, in spite of all of that, he
[02:44:51] thing. Um, in spite of all of that, he was insistent upon it. Uh, I finally got
[02:44:54] was insistent upon it. Uh, I finally got to the point where I just had to ask
[02:44:55] to the point where I just had to ask him, "Now, what do you say, Pastor
[02:44:58] him, "Now, what do you say, Pastor Scrogggins, to those who have been
[02:45:02] Scrogggins, to those who have been who've been harmed in all of this? What
[02:45:04] who've been harmed in all of this? What what do you have to say to them?" And he
[02:45:07] what do you have to say to them?" And he could only go to Mark 11 26.
[02:45:12] could only go to Mark 11 26. And he did it this way. We're sitting at
[02:45:15] And he did it this way. We're sitting at a table opposite one another. He grabs
[02:45:17] a table opposite one another. He grabs his Bible. He pulls it out. He opens it
[02:45:20] his Bible. He pulls it out. He opens it up to a page that he had marked there in
[02:45:22] up to a page that he had marked there in Mark 11. He flips over to it. He says,
[02:45:26] Mark 11. He flips over to it. He says, "Uh, if you don't forgive those who sin
[02:45:29] "Uh, if you don't forgive those who sin against you, then neither will will God
[02:45:31] against you, then neither will will God forgive you." And then he closed the
[02:45:33] forgive you." And then he closed the Bible and he put it back. And that was
[02:45:36] Bible and he put it back. And that was it. That was the sum of what he had to
[02:45:39] it. That was the sum of what he had to say to those who were hurt. Johnny then
[02:45:42] say to those who were hurt. Johnny then preaches uh the next day after after
[02:45:45] preaches uh the next day after after speaking with Kevin. And I want to play
[02:45:47] speaking with Kevin. And I want to play a clip from his sermon because I find it
[02:45:49] a clip from his sermon because I find it interesting. I also want to note that
[02:45:52] interesting. I also want to note that when Johnny came in to be a part of this
[02:45:54] when Johnny came in to be a part of this investigation committee or came in for
[02:45:56] investigation committee or came in for that weekend, he was staying with Larry
[02:45:58] that weekend, he was staying with Larry Sebastian while he was taking up the
[02:46:01] Sebastian while he was taking up the role of the intrama investigating
[02:46:04] role of the intrama investigating everything.
[02:46:06] everything. Now let's have a listen to that.
[02:46:09] Now let's have a listen to that. Out of 12, one was a Judas. Can I hear?
[02:46:12] Out of 12, one was a Judas. Can I hear? Is that true or not? Am I lying or not?
[02:46:14] Is that true or not? Am I lying or not? And let me just make it simple right
[02:46:16] And let me just make it simple right now. All right. Out of 12, there was
[02:46:19] now. All right. Out of 12, there was one. Right? Let's make it easier. Make
[02:46:22] one. Right? Let's make it easier. Make it simple. Just say one out of 10. So,
[02:46:24] it simple. Just say one out of 10. So, if you got 20 people inside the church,
[02:46:26] if you got 20 people inside the church, how many Judices do you have?
[02:46:29] how many Judices do you have? >> Two. If you got 30 people inside the
[02:46:31] >> Two. If you got 30 people inside the church, how many Judices you have? And
[02:46:33] church, how many Judices you have? And just make it simple. All right. If you
[02:46:35] just make it simple. All right. If you have a 100 people inside the church, how
[02:46:36] have a 100 people inside the church, how many Judas you have?
[02:46:38] many Judas you have? Oh, you got a thousand people inside the
[02:46:41] Oh, you got a thousand people inside the church. How many people, Judas, do you
[02:46:43] church. How many people, Judas, do you have?
[02:46:45] have? Oh,
[02:46:48] >> God have mercy. The good southern boy
[02:46:51] >> God have mercy. The good southern boy said this way. Excuse my southern
[02:46:54] said this way. Excuse my southern English right now. All right. He said,
[02:46:56] English right now. All right. He said, "The bigger the dog, the more the
[02:46:58] "The bigger the dog, the more the fleas." That's what he said. All right.
[02:47:01] fleas." That's what he said. All right. Okay. So, we've got this Johnny
[02:47:03] Okay. So, we've got this Johnny Scrogggins. He's in. He's just receated
[02:47:05] Scrogggins. He's in. He's just receated Larry. He said, "Larry, you don't need
[02:47:07] Larry. He said, "Larry, you don't need to step aside while they while we're
[02:47:08] to step aside while they while we're investigating you. You can be here
[02:47:11] investigating you. You can be here running things. You're the pastor." So,
[02:47:14] running things. You're the pastor." So, Larry's back in town. The very next
[02:47:16] Larry's back in town. The very next guest uh uh visiting speaker was Gary
[02:47:20] guest uh uh visiting speaker was Gary Morgan. Gary uh prophesies over Larry
[02:47:24] Morgan. Gary uh prophesies over Larry Sebastian, and I just want to play a
[02:47:25] Sebastian, and I just want to play a clip from his prophetic word.
[02:47:28] clip from his prophetic word. >> And the Lord is upgrading your season
[02:47:30] >> And the Lord is upgrading your season right now. He's upgrading where you're
[02:47:33] right now. He's upgrading where you're at, but also as well where you're going.
[02:47:37] at, but also as well where you're going. And I felt like the Lord is adding to
[02:47:40] And I felt like the Lord is adding to and he's not taking away.
[02:47:42] and he's not taking away. The Lord is multiplying and he's not
[02:47:45] The Lord is multiplying and he's not dividing. And I just see like these
[02:47:48] dividing. And I just see like these mathematical things over your life. And
[02:47:49] mathematical things over your life. And I feel like the Lord is saying
[02:47:51] I feel like the Lord is saying subtraction and division are being taken
[02:47:53] subtraction and division are being taken away from you right now, but
[02:47:55] away from you right now, but multiplication and addition are being
[02:47:57] multiplication and addition are being yours in this season.
[02:47:59] yours in this season. So Gary continues and he prophesizes
[02:48:02] So Gary continues and he prophesizes going to be three open doors for you
[02:48:04] going to be three open doors for you Larry and look towards the future this
[02:48:06] Larry and look towards the future this kind of thing. So you've got Johnny
[02:48:08] kind of thing. So you've got Johnny Scrogggins comes in, puts Larry back
[02:48:10] Scrogggins comes in, puts Larry back into the church and the week later Gary
[02:48:13] into the church and the week later Gary Morgan gives this prophetic word over
[02:48:16] Morgan gives this prophetic word over Larry and uh and his future.
[02:48:19] Larry and uh and his future. Now this is where the intramership
[02:48:21] Now this is where the intramership comes. You've got Peter McHugh. You've
[02:48:24] comes. You've got Peter McHugh. You've got another guy by the name of Alan
[02:48:25] got another guy by the name of Alan Meer. So there's a lot of names.
[02:48:28] Meer. So there's a lot of names. They come on and they're entrusted to
[02:48:30] They come on and they're entrusted to hear out the victim's stories and find
[02:48:32] hear out the victim's stories and find the credibility. You know, the uh the
[02:48:34] the credibility. You know, the uh the claims of abuse. We're going to look
[02:48:36] claims of abuse. We're going to look into that. We're going to try to find
[02:48:37] into that. We're going to try to find the truth. Larry says that he will abide
[02:48:41] the truth. Larry says that he will abide by the ruling of this intramhip. What
[02:48:44] by the ruling of this intramhip. What what they conclude, I'm happy to do it.
[02:48:47] what they conclude, I'm happy to do it. They come on
[02:48:49] They come on their process to uh talk to the victims
[02:48:53] their process to uh talk to the victims uh necessarily one by one. here are
[02:48:56] uh necessarily one by one. here are their stories or you know basically
[02:48:59] their stories or you know basically their process is let's get them to write
[02:49:01] their process is let's get them to write it down. Kevin, can you pass us the
[02:49:04] it down. Kevin, can you pass us the statements effectively from anyone
[02:49:06] statements effectively from anyone that's making a claim against Larry?
[02:49:10] that's making a claim against Larry? Uh Kevin said that this process was
[02:49:12] Uh Kevin said that this process was difficult for some.
[02:49:14] difficult for some. Some people didn't actually want to uh
[02:49:17] Some people didn't actually want to uh write their statement based on their
[02:49:19] write their statement based on their their sort of trauma. Uh but
[02:49:23] their sort of trauma. Uh but nevertheless they gather 30 plus uh
[02:49:25] nevertheless they gather 30 plus uh statements. Many of them were anonymous.
[02:49:28] statements. Many of them were anonymous. They were then encouraged to put their
[02:49:30] They were then encouraged to put their name on it. Um those that did put their
[02:49:33] name on it. Um those that did put their name on it, there was an encouragement
[02:49:35] name on it, there was an encouragement to uh confront Larry. Um I think they
[02:49:39] to uh confront Larry. Um I think they were operating under a principle of like
[02:49:40] were operating under a principle of like natural law where the accused person has
[02:49:45] natural law where the accused person has a right to uh confront the accuser
[02:49:49] a right to uh confront the accuser basically.
[02:49:50] basically. um from June until November they present
[02:49:54] um from June until November they present their findings. Okay. So Alan Meyer,
[02:49:57] their findings. Okay. So Alan Meyer, Peter McHugh and some others present the
[02:49:59] Peter McHugh and some others present the findings
[02:50:01] findings and uh it was for Larry to resign. Let
[02:50:04] and uh it was for Larry to resign. Let me show you a small clip from that. The
[02:50:06] me show you a small clip from that. The unfortunate but in but consistent theme
[02:50:10] unfortunate but in but consistent theme has been the treatment of people at the
[02:50:13] has been the treatment of people at the hands of Pastor Larry and to a lesser
[02:50:17] hands of Pastor Larry and to a lesser extent Christa.
[02:50:20] extent Christa. In the light of those 31 qualifications,
[02:50:25] we found that at in at least 12 of them,
[02:50:29] we found that at in at least 12 of them, Larry uh is a deficient and
[02:50:34] Larry uh is a deficient and um
[02:50:36] um disqualified leader.
[02:50:38] disqualified leader. So that was a short clip from Allan. Uh
[02:50:41] So that was a short clip from Allan. Uh based on the findings, the intram
[02:50:42] based on the findings, the intram elders, they recommended that uh that
[02:50:45] elders, they recommended that uh that Larry step down. Larry did not listen to
[02:50:48] Larry step down. Larry did not listen to the advice from the intram elders. So he
[02:50:51] the advice from the intram elders. So he must have changed his mind there and he
[02:50:53] must have changed his mind there and he stayed on. They provided that recording
[02:50:56] stayed on. They provided that recording to people. Somebody has put it on
[02:50:57] to people. Somebody has put it on tovurch.org
[02:50:59] tovurch.org to ovurch.org if anyone wants to see the
[02:51:02] to ovurch.org if anyone wants to see the findings there. Mike, that's the best I
[02:51:04] findings there. Mike, that's the best I can do in terms of just finding the
[02:51:05] can do in terms of just finding the facts. Um I'm sure there's much more
[02:51:08] facts. Um I'm sure there's much more that I'm missing out. It's a very big
[02:51:09] that I'm missing out. It's a very big story. Um, and I'm sure both sides would
[02:51:13] story. Um, and I'm sure both sides would would uh want to put more into it um
[02:51:15] would uh want to put more into it um from different points of view, but
[02:51:16] from different points of view, but that's just kind of what I could what I
[02:51:18] that's just kind of what I could what I could see. Let's just pass it on to
[02:51:19] could see. Let's just pass it on to Karen Olop. Uh, Karen was someone who
[02:51:22] Karen Olop. Uh, Karen was someone who was with the church for 20 years, a
[02:51:24] was with the church for 20 years, a board member, one of the first board
[02:51:25] board member, one of the first board members, and also a whistleblower in a
[02:51:28] members, and also a whistleblower in a state inquiry into cults and coercive
[02:51:32] state inquiry into cults and coercive control. So, thanks Mike.
[02:51:33] control. So, thanks Mike. >> Thank you, Chris. And thank you, Mike,
[02:51:36] >> Thank you, Chris. And thank you, Mike, for standing up for the broken and
[02:51:38] for standing up for the broken and bleeding sheep. Since 2023,
[02:51:42] bleeding sheep. Since 2023, we've had over 100 victims come to us
[02:51:46] we've had over 100 victims come to us confidentially sharing their stories.
[02:51:50] confidentially sharing their stories. These are just a few of them.
[02:51:54] These are just a few of them. There's so much pain you're not getting
[02:51:55] There's so much pain you're not getting to hear
[02:51:58] to hear >> because each one of us has been berated
[02:52:01] >> because each one of us has been berated >> in private behind closed doors and there
[02:52:05] >> in private behind closed doors and there are so many people that are still scared
[02:52:07] are so many people that are still scared of it. I'm still scared of him. I've
[02:52:09] of it. I'm still scared of him. I've gone head to head with you. So for for
[02:52:11] gone head to head with you. So for for each of us here, there's there's a story
[02:52:13] each of us here, there's there's a story of pain and and for each of us here,
[02:52:16] of pain and and for each of us here, there's probably 10 others that are too
[02:52:18] there's probably 10 others that are too scared to speak up. Yeah,
[02:52:21] scared to speak up. Yeah, >> I was the one um
[02:52:24] >> I was the one um Larry was at my door. I was a single mom
[02:52:28] Larry was at my door. I was a single mom around 15 years ago.
[02:52:32] around 15 years ago. At night, at any hour he decided that he
[02:52:34] At night, at any hour he decided that he wanted to yell at me. I used to work for
[02:52:36] wanted to yell at me. I used to work for Larry. At any hour he decided that he
[02:52:39] Larry. At any hour he decided that he wanted to yell at me and berate me. He
[02:52:41] wanted to yell at me and berate me. He would come to my door and stand there.
[02:52:44] would come to my door and stand there. My kids and I would hide upstairs from
[02:52:49] My kids and I would hide upstairs from him.
[02:52:52] I don't know what's going on here. I
[02:52:55] I don't know what's going on here. I will tell you this. This man abused me.
[02:52:58] will tell you this. This man abused me. I watched him abuse many people.
[02:53:01] I watched him abuse many people. If I wasn't there in a place that was
[02:53:04] If I wasn't there in a place that was protecting me,
[02:53:06] protecting me, I know that what he would have done to
[02:53:09] I know that what he would have done to me
[02:53:11] me if we were in a private vicinity.
[02:53:14] if we were in a private vicinity. He wanted he couldn't hold his hate for
[02:53:18] He wanted he couldn't hold his hate for me back.
[02:53:20] me back. My relationship with God was affected
[02:53:23] My relationship with God was affected greatly because it was yet again someone
[02:53:27] greatly because it was yet again someone abused me in the skies of God in God's
[02:53:30] abused me in the skies of God in God's name.
[02:53:31] name. I have never ever known such hating of
[02:53:35] I have never ever known such hating of human being and even if I did do wrongly
[02:53:37] human being and even if I did do wrongly fight him which I did not. He should
[02:53:40] fight him which I did not. He should have been able to approach me in love
[02:53:42] have been able to approach me in love because that's God.
[02:53:43] because that's God. >> That is not God.
[02:53:45] >> That is not God. >> This hurt is not God.
[02:53:47] >> This hurt is not God. But I do remember that he was talking to
[02:53:50] But I do remember that he was talking to me about
[02:53:52] me about um that I needed to go home and give my
[02:53:57] um that I needed to go home and give my husband what he asks for cuz you know
[02:53:58] husband what he asks for cuz you know men had needs and that's that's a
[02:54:00] men had needs and that's that's a message that was reiterated by Christa
[02:54:02] message that was reiterated by Christa on many many occasions and I do remember
[02:54:06] on many many occasions and I do remember uh he was yelling at me in the office
[02:54:08] uh he was yelling at me in the office and he would take a step towards me like
[02:54:11] and he would take a step towards me like very very close personal space and I
[02:54:13] very very close personal space and I would take a step back and he would take
[02:54:16] would take a step back and he would take another step and I would take another
[02:54:17] another step and I would take another step back and I was pinned up against a
[02:54:19] step back and I was pinned up against a filing cabinet at one stage. He really
[02:54:22] filing cabinet at one stage. He really was only about
[02:54:25] was only about 5 cm from my nose yelling at me. One of
[02:54:30] 5 cm from my nose yelling at me. One of the most devastating stories was a
[02:54:34] the most devastating stories was a female in her 20s now
[02:54:37] female in her 20s now that came forward who had been raped at
[02:54:39] that came forward who had been raped at the age of 12 at a youth event by an
[02:54:42] the age of 12 at a youth event by an older boy who was related to the then
[02:54:46] older boy who was related to the then leadership team.
[02:54:49] leadership team. She had gone to Larry privately.
[02:54:52] She had gone to Larry privately. she shared of the rape was asked
[02:54:55] she shared of the rape was asked specific details
[02:54:57] specific details and was told
[02:54:59] and was told that it would be dealt with.
[02:55:03] that it would be dealt with. Um, so he went in there afterwards to do
[02:55:05] Um, so he went in there afterwards to do something after church and I went and I
[02:55:08] something after church and I went and I followed him in,
[02:55:11] followed him in, asked if I could talk to him and he said
[02:55:13] asked if I could talk to him and he said yeah and shut said to shut the door. So
[02:55:15] yeah and shut said to shut the door. So I shut the door.
[02:55:18] I shut the door. Um, I sat down but he didn't sit down.
[02:55:22] Um, I sat down but he didn't sit down. He sit down. He was looking at me like
[02:55:25] He sit down. He was looking at me like standing over me.
[02:55:28] standing over me. I think I had my back to the door cuz I
[02:55:30] I think I had my back to the door cuz I felt trapped.
[02:55:32] felt trapped. I had my back to the door. He had he was
[02:55:34] I had my back to the door. He had he was facing me,
[02:55:36] facing me, standing up, not doing anything, not
[02:55:38] standing up, not doing anything, not like not moving around.
[02:55:42] like not moving around. Um I I related to him. I guess this is
[02:55:47] Um I I related to him. I guess this is the next logical step you tell your
[02:55:49] the next logical step you tell your pastor. that's what you do. He said,
[02:55:52] pastor. that's what you do. He said, "Don't tell your mom. Don't tell anyone.
[02:55:56] "Don't tell your mom. Don't tell anyone. Um, I'll deal with it."
[02:55:59] Um, I'll deal with it." And then he just walked out.
[02:56:03] And then he just walked out. It wasn't until just a few years ago in
[02:56:05] It wasn't until just a few years ago in counseling that this girl was able to
[02:56:09] counseling that this girl was able to share with the counselor what had
[02:56:11] share with the counselor what had happened to her. And it wasn't until
[02:56:13] happened to her. And it wasn't until November 2023
[02:56:16] November 2023 that the interim elders delivered their
[02:56:18] that the interim elders delivered their findings to two places. Firstly, to the
[02:56:22] findings to two places. Firstly, to the inside of the church, to the building
[02:56:24] inside of the church, to the building where people were still supporting
[02:56:26] where people were still supporting Larry, and then to a room full of 60
[02:56:30] Larry, and then to a room full of 60 victims, 60 former members, 30 online,
[02:56:34] victims, 60 former members, 30 online, 25 more that requested the video.
[02:56:38] 25 more that requested the video. The findings stamp the truth,
[02:56:41] The findings stamp the truth, but they were not shared by the interim
[02:56:43] but they were not shared by the interim elders publicly.
[02:56:45] elders publicly. >> There's been a there's been a lot of a
[02:56:47] >> There's been a there's been a lot of a lot of work done with Larry and Christa,
[02:56:50] lot of work done with Larry and Christa, particularly by Peter in a very in in
[02:56:54] particularly by Peter in a very in in personally spending many many hours in
[02:56:58] personally spending many many hours in very very penetrating conversations with
[02:57:01] very very penetrating conversations with them as a couple. Not a stone or a rock
[02:57:04] them as a couple. Not a stone or a rock has been left unturned. And as a result
[02:57:07] has been left unturned. And as a result of that, both Larry and Christa are
[02:57:10] of that, both Larry and Christa are acknowledging things openly,
[02:57:13] acknowledging things openly, uh, which at least is heartening.
[02:57:17] uh, which at least is heartening. >> I want to finish with an audio recording
[02:57:19] >> I want to finish with an audio recording from September 2023, a forced grace and
[02:57:23] from September 2023, a forced grace and reconciliation meeting.
[02:57:24] reconciliation meeting. >> The second thing is that we we're all
[02:57:26] >> The second thing is that we we're all having uh to struggle to bring our
[02:57:28] having uh to struggle to bring our hearts and our minds to surrender to
[02:57:30] hearts and our minds to surrender to God's word. Um, there are lots of
[02:57:33] God's word. Um, there are lots of opinions in the room. There are lots of
[02:57:36] opinions in the room. There are lots of experiences in the room. There is pain
[02:57:39] experiences in the room. There is pain uh in the zoom people who are connecting
[02:57:41] uh in the zoom people who are connecting to us through the zoom. Um
[02:57:45] to us through the zoom. Um we are not ignorant of that and we're
[02:57:48] we are not ignorant of that and we're not going to avoid that. Um but the risk
[02:57:52] not going to avoid that. Um but the risk of seemingly diminishing the pain of
[02:57:55] of seemingly diminishing the pain of those that are experiencing it um if you
[02:57:58] those that are experiencing it um if you want to experience some real pain then
[02:58:00] want to experience some real pain then just become a pastor of church.
[02:58:02] just become a pastor of church. >> This meeting was chaired by Peter
[02:58:03] >> This meeting was chaired by Peter McHugh.
[02:58:05] McHugh. No, no,
[02:58:06] No, no, >> definitely.
[02:58:07] >> definitely. >> We need to stop that because that's
[02:58:10] >> We need to stop that because that's inappropriate what you're saying. When
[02:58:13] inappropriate what you're saying. When is someone going to take accountability
[02:58:15] is someone going to take accountability for the pain that has been caused?
[02:58:18] for the pain that has been caused? Excuse me. I ask you if you're a member.
[02:58:21] Excuse me. I ask you if you're a member. >> I am.
[02:58:30] I'm not intending to
[02:58:33] I'm not intending to understand
[02:58:37] that.
[02:58:38] that. >> Can you see that?
[02:58:41] >> Can you see that? We're not interested about that cuz if a
[02:58:43] We're not interested about that cuz if a pastor is pastoring a church properly,
[02:58:46] pastor is pastoring a church properly, those things aren't going to happen.
[02:58:48] those things aren't going to happen. When you start devouring and hurting
[02:58:51] When you start devouring and hurting your sheep and bleeding, the sheep are
[02:58:54] your sheep and bleeding, the sheep are there bleeding and in pain. When does
[02:58:57] there bleeding and in pain. When does that stop?
[02:58:59] that stop? When does somebody take accountability?
[02:59:02] When does somebody take accountability? Because you have to stand in front of
[02:59:04] Because you have to stand in front of Jesus and give account for that. Well,
[02:59:07] Jesus and give account for that. Well, this dear girl has years of healing to
[02:59:10] this dear girl has years of healing to take place because somebody is
[02:59:13] take place because somebody is narcissistic and abusive. When does it
[02:59:17] narcissistic and abusive. When does it stop?
[02:59:19] stop? God's children need to be protected.
[02:59:24] God's children need to be protected. Enough.
[02:59:26] Enough. And it's about truth. I haven't heard
[02:59:29] And it's about truth. I haven't heard anyone speak truth tonight. Where's the
[02:59:32] anyone speak truth tonight. Where's the truth? Where is the love of Jesus?
[02:59:36] truth? Where is the love of Jesus? Because if people love Jesus, they're
[02:59:38] Because if people love Jesus, they're not going to be hurting and abusing
[02:59:40] not going to be hurting and abusing people.
[02:59:44] >> Sir
[02:59:45] >> Sir point of view.
[02:59:47] point of view. >> You have a point of view. But let me
[02:59:49] >> You have a point of view. But let me tell you, there are people bleeding
[02:59:51] tell you, there are people bleeding here. You need to be sensitive to them
[02:59:54] here. You need to be sensitive to them and you are not being sensitive to them.
[02:59:58] and you are not being sensitive to them. >> I apologize. If you don't feel
[03:00:01] >> I apologize. If you don't feel sensitive, I don't have something to
[03:00:02] sensitive, I don't have something to say. I will to apologize.
[03:00:06] say. I will to apologize. I'm sorry that you feel that I haven't
[03:00:08] I'm sorry that you feel that I haven't been sensed.
[03:00:10] been sensed. It wasn't my intent. It wasn't my
[03:00:12] It wasn't my intent. It wasn't my motive. And if that's the way it's been
[03:00:14] motive. And if that's the way it's been received, then I'm sorry.
[03:00:18] received, then I'm sorry. But what we're asking is that there will
[03:00:21] But what we're asking is that there will be a sense in which stories are brought
[03:00:24] be a sense in which stories are brought to Larry in a way that he can respond to
[03:00:26] to Larry in a way that he can respond to them.
[03:00:27] them. >> He knows what he's done.
[03:00:29] >> He knows what he's done. At this point in time he doesn't because
[03:00:32] At this point in time he doesn't because he's not
[03:00:35] he's not >> he has
[03:00:37] >> he has any
[03:00:42] let's just be
[03:00:45] let's just be >> No. Larry knows who I am and he knows
[03:00:47] >> No. Larry knows who I am and he knows what he's done to me. He knows what he
[03:00:50] what he's done to me. He knows what he did to me.
[03:00:51] did to me. >> It was heightened. It was distressing
[03:00:54] >> It was heightened. It was distressing and it broke me. Following the findings
[03:00:57] and it broke me. Following the findings in November 2023 when Larry was found as
[03:01:00] in November 2023 when Larry was found as disqualified as a pastor,
[03:01:03] disqualified as a pastor, >> it is our recommendation that Larry and
[03:01:05] >> it is our recommendation that Larry and Christa resign from leadership and take
[03:01:07] Christa resign from leadership and take time to address a range of emotional and
[03:01:09] time to address a range of emotional and relational issues personally.
[03:01:13] relational issues personally. >> There was a counseling trust that was
[03:01:15] >> There was a counseling trust that was set up by the interim elders. Part of
[03:01:19] set up by the interim elders. Part of the requirements to access the trust
[03:01:22] the requirements to access the trust were that people could no longer be
[03:01:25] were that people could no longer be members of Quesa City Church. So while
[03:01:28] members of Quesa City Church. So while we stayed members to continue to seek
[03:01:31] we stayed members to continue to seek accountability, we were forced to resign
[03:01:34] accountability, we were forced to resign our membership so that we could access
[03:01:37] our membership so that we could access the counseling trust for our family.
[03:01:40] the counseling trust for our family. I really want to thank you, Mike, for
[03:01:42] I really want to thank you, Mike, for shining a light and bringing
[03:01:44] shining a light and bringing accountability in the body of Christ. I
[03:01:48] accountability in the body of Christ. I know what it's like to be a
[03:01:50] know what it's like to be a whistleblower and a victim advocate and
[03:01:53] whistleblower and a victim advocate and the toll that it takes. It's not easy,
[03:01:57] the toll that it takes. It's not easy, but it's a calling that God's called us
[03:01:59] but it's a calling that God's called us to. And I just I'm I know I speak on
[03:02:03] to. And I just I'm I know I speak on behalf of many. I'm incredibly grateful.
[03:02:08] behalf of many. I'm incredibly grateful. Editor Mike back here again. It seems to
[03:02:10] Editor Mike back here again. It seems to me that Gary and Peter were connected to
[03:02:12] me that Gary and Peter were connected to this in unhealthy ways. Very unhealthy
[03:02:15] this in unhealthy ways. Very unhealthy ways. And hopefully this video sheds
[03:02:16] ways. And hopefully this video sheds more light onto that and helps that
[03:02:18] more light onto that and helps that community. God bless you guys. All
[03:02:20] community. God bless you guys. All right, this is the confrontation call
[03:02:23] right, this is the confrontation call and I have to say some legal stuff real
[03:02:25] and I have to say some legal stuff real quick before we get into it. And first
[03:02:26] quick before we get into it. And first off, it's this. They agreed. Everybody
[03:02:29] off, it's this. They agreed. Everybody on the call agreed for it to be
[03:02:30] on the call agreed for it to be recorded. Everybody knew it was going to
[03:02:32] recorded. Everybody knew it was going to be recorded. On the recording, I'm
[03:02:34] be recorded. On the recording, I'm acknowledging it's being recorded. They
[03:02:35] acknowledging it's being recorded. They all consented to it. Even more than
[03:02:37] all consented to it. Even more than that, it was actually Gary's side that
[03:02:39] that, it was actually Gary's side that demanded that this call be recorded. And
[03:02:41] demanded that this call be recorded. And I thought to myself, are they crazy?
[03:02:43] I thought to myself, are they crazy? They want to record this call. Okay,
[03:02:45] They want to record this call. Okay, because I don't illegally record stuff.
[03:02:46] because I don't illegally record stuff. And I thought, well, if that's what they
[03:02:48] And I thought, well, if that's what they want, we'll record it. But I made it
[03:02:49] want, we'll record it. But I made it clear and then this is in the recording
[03:02:52] clear and then this is in the recording that this recording is for
[03:02:53] that this recording is for accountability, public accountability
[03:02:55] accountability, public accountability for either myself or for Gary. One way
[03:02:58] for either myself or for Gary. One way or the other, it's coming. That is there
[03:03:00] or the other, it's coming. That is there is no real cause for suggesting that
[03:03:02] is no real cause for suggesting that this recording was somehow meant to be
[03:03:04] this recording was somehow meant to be private or that there wasn't consent or
[03:03:06] private or that there wasn't consent or that there wasn't acknowledgement that
[03:03:08] that there wasn't acknowledgement that it was meant to be for public
[03:03:09] it was meant to be for public accountability. I also want to add that
[03:03:11] accountability. I also want to add that we mentioned a transcript. This
[03:03:13] we mentioned a transcript. This transcript that we refer to was from a
[03:03:15] transcript that we refer to was from a meeting that Peter McHugh had with the
[03:03:17] meeting that Peter McHugh had with the board of a church called GCC. Um, now
[03:03:20] board of a church called GCC. Um, now this is a little bit of a confused
[03:03:21] this is a little bit of a confused moment and we clarified it after the
[03:03:23] moment and we clarified it after the call between me and the guys, but the
[03:03:26] call between me and the guys, but the GCC thing, it was to my knowledge, it
[03:03:28] GCC thing, it was to my knowledge, it was not a transcript at all. It was it
[03:03:30] was not a transcript at all. It was it was notes that were written down, quotes
[03:03:31] was notes that were written down, quotes that were written down during a meeting.
[03:03:33] that were written down during a meeting. Um, but not not a transcript of a
[03:03:35] Um, but not not a transcript of a recorded meeting. So that's I I'm saying
[03:03:37] recorded meeting. So that's I I'm saying this for legal reasons, okay? because uh
[03:03:40] this for legal reasons, okay? because uh like somebody might want to try to make
[03:03:41] like somebody might want to try to make a stink legally and we have to try to
[03:03:44] a stink legally and we have to try to cover our bases. Uh now that's not me
[03:03:46] cover our bases. Uh now that's not me who would do that, but I don't know,
[03:03:48] who would do that, but I don't know, somebody else might. So this is the
[03:03:52] somebody else might. So this is the confrontation call and we're submitting
[03:03:55] confrontation call and we're submitting it to the public record for full
[03:03:57] it to the public record for full accountability. I wish some leaders had
[03:04:01] accountability. I wish some leaders had just stuck their necks out and done the
[03:04:02] just stuck their necks out and done the right thing cuz none of this would have
[03:04:04] right thing cuz none of this would have been necessary. This is not the best way
[03:04:06] been necessary. This is not the best way to do things. It's just where we're at
[03:04:09] to do things. It's just where we're at now.
[03:04:19] You should have heard it say that it's
[03:04:20] You should have heard it say that it's recording in progress. And
[03:04:24] recording in progress. And um so I I'll just say thank you, Daniel.
[03:04:27] um so I I'll just say thank you, Daniel. I see you're here. If you just wanted to
[03:04:28] I see you're here. If you just wanted to be here to to witness, you're welcome to
[03:04:30] be here to to witness, you're welcome to do that. If you want to share, you're
[03:04:31] do that. If you want to share, you're welcome to do that. Okay? So it's up to
[03:04:33] welcome to do that. Okay? So it's up to you. You just everybody can control them
[03:04:35] you. You just everybody can control them their own selves and I respect that. So,
[03:04:38] their own selves and I respect that. So, um
[03:04:40] um uh the the purpose of this meeting is
[03:04:42] uh the the purpose of this meeting is because I tweeted out or put on social
[03:04:45] because I tweeted out or put on social media in a few different places um that
[03:04:47] media in a few different places um that we that Gary that you were guilty of uh
[03:04:52] we that Gary that you were guilty of uh faking prophecy. And um I did this
[03:04:55] faking prophecy. And um I did this because I I had conviction that I had
[03:04:56] because I I had conviction that I had already seen a significant amount of
[03:04:58] already seen a significant amount of evidence to demonstrate that this was
[03:04:59] evidence to demonstrate that this was true. And um and then I was contacted by
[03:05:03] true. And um and then I was contacted by Peter who reached out and wanted to
[03:05:06] Peter who reached out and wanted to connect and talk about it and actually
[03:05:08] connect and talk about it and actually arrange a meeting um so we could discuss
[03:05:11] arrange a meeting um so we could discuss it. And since then basically we've gone
[03:05:13] it. And since then basically we've gone back and forth with Peter Allen and
[03:05:14] back and forth with Peter Allen and stuff like that. And what I would like
[03:05:16] stuff like that. And what I would like us to do since I know everyone on this
[03:05:18] us to do since I know everyone on this meeting has already been down this road
[03:05:19] meeting has already been down this road before, right? I'm the only one who
[03:05:21] before, right? I'm the only one who hasn't been down this with you guys. Um,
[03:05:23] hasn't been down this with you guys. Um, I'll I'll be I prefer total transparency
[03:05:26] I'll I'll be I prefer total transparency and I don't like doing um artificial
[03:05:30] and I don't like doing um artificial kindness to the point where you can't
[03:05:31] kindness to the point where you can't tell what anybody's saying or what's
[03:05:32] tell what anybody's saying or what's going on, that kind of stuff. So, I just
[03:05:34] going on, that kind of stuff. So, I just really want to be super transparent is
[03:05:36] really want to be super transparent is we love the church. We love integrity
[03:05:37] we love the church. We love integrity and truth. There is a major problem of
[03:05:39] and truth. There is a major problem of fakery in the charismatic church right
[03:05:41] fakery in the charismatic church right now. It's it's it's an insane problem
[03:05:44] now. It's it's it's an insane problem that's going on for for generations and
[03:05:46] that's going on for for generations and has largely been unaddressed from those
[03:05:48] has largely been unaddressed from those in the movement, only people outside who
[03:05:50] in the movement, only people outside who were dismissed as heretics, heretic
[03:05:51] were dismissed as heretics, heretic hunters and heresy hunters and stuff
[03:05:53] hunters and heresy hunters and stuff like that. Um, and Gary, the evidence
[03:05:56] like that. Um, and Gary, the evidence that was mounted against you looks
[03:05:58] that was mounted against you looks pretty strong and I'm open to hearing
[03:06:01] pretty strong and I'm open to hearing some other side of it, but I have seen a
[03:06:03] some other side of it, but I have seen a lot of stuff myself already, including
[03:06:05] lot of stuff myself already, including other stuff. In fact, uh I I I think
[03:06:10] other stuff. In fact, uh I I I think that I've been misled in my email
[03:06:11] that I've been misled in my email exchanges even already with some of your
[03:06:13] exchanges even already with some of your the guys that I would say are your team,
[03:06:15] the guys that I would say are your team, you know, Allan and Peter. So, I'm
[03:06:17] you know, Allan and Peter. So, I'm putting that right out there. You're
[03:06:19] putting that right out there. You're also welcome to put out there any kind
[03:06:21] also welcome to put out there any kind of concerns, allegations against me if
[03:06:23] of concerns, allegations against me if you've got them, and I'm all ears. No
[03:06:25] you've got them, and I'm all ears. No one's above reproach in above the
[03:06:27] one's above reproach in above the potential of being reproached in that
[03:06:29] potential of being reproached in that regard. Um, so the purpose of this
[03:06:32] regard. Um, so the purpose of this meeting in then is to either establish
[03:06:35] meeting in then is to either establish that I need to go and say, "Guys, I'm
[03:06:36] that I need to go and say, "Guys, I'm super sorry. I I I just bismerched this
[03:06:39] super sorry. I I I just bismerched this guy's character. I heard his ministry."
[03:06:41] guy's character. I heard his ministry." And I I would make that super public
[03:06:43] And I I would make that super public with a graveling apology. Um, and if I
[03:06:47] with a graveling apology. Um, and if I was convinced it was true, I'd endorse
[03:06:48] was convinced it was true, I'd endorse your character and your ministry. Um, on
[03:06:51] your character and your ministry. Um, on the other hand, if this has been not
[03:06:54] the other hand, if this has been not only the egregious fakery of of the
[03:06:58] only the egregious fakery of of the past, but ongoing cover up with allies
[03:07:01] past, but ongoing cover up with allies doing doing this for you and then
[03:07:02] doing doing this for you and then causing others who to hold you
[03:07:04] causing others who to hold you accountable to actually have to
[03:07:04] accountable to actually have to apologize. If that's the case, then that
[03:07:08] apologize. If that's the case, then that escalates things the other direction.
[03:07:10] escalates things the other direction. So, that's the that's the stakes. It's
[03:07:14] So, that's the that's the stakes. It's So, I'm just putting it straight out
[03:07:15] So, I'm just putting it straight out there with you guys that we'll just talk
[03:07:17] there with you guys that we'll just talk like adults. And I I want to I want to
[03:07:18] like adults. And I I want to I want to pass the ball first if I can to Gary uh
[03:07:21] pass the ball first if I can to Gary uh and say, Gary, what is your position on
[03:07:24] and say, Gary, what is your position on all of this stuff where what do you you
[03:07:27] all of this stuff where what do you you know, did this stuff happen in the past?
[03:07:29] know, did this stuff happen in the past? Did you do it? Did you covered up? Have
[03:07:32] Did you do it? Did you covered up? Have you been uh slandered? Uh mis
[03:07:35] you been uh slandered? Uh mis misrepresented? Maybe you can just share
[03:07:37] misrepresented? Maybe you can just share and we'll just let you talk for a
[03:07:38] and we'll just let you talk for a minute.
[03:07:40] minute. >> Yeah, thanks Mike. Yeah, I I think yeah,
[03:07:42] >> Yeah, thanks Mike. Yeah, I I think yeah, there's a level of slander and
[03:07:44] there's a level of slander and accusation that's not true. And
[03:07:48] accusation that's not true. And this is hard for me because again, this
[03:07:50] this is hard for me because again, this is something I've had to carry 10 years.
[03:07:52] is something I've had to carry 10 years. And it's
[03:07:57] when this came out, you know, 10 years
[03:07:59] when this came out, you know, 10 years ago, I was open and willing to to meet
[03:08:01] ago, I was open and willing to to meet with Nathaniel and Haley and and those
[03:08:05] with Nathaniel and Haley and and those that brought accusation. And, you know,
[03:08:08] that brought accusation. And, you know, I I didn't data mine. I haven't dated
[03:08:10] I I didn't data mine. I haven't dated mind and I don't need to data mine in
[03:08:12] mind and I don't need to data mine in that sort of sense. And um
[03:08:17] that sort of sense. And um my heart has always been for the church.
[03:08:19] my heart has always been for the church. It's been for the church. It's been for
[03:08:22] It's been for the church. It's been for um the body of Christ. It's been for the
[03:08:24] um the body of Christ. It's been for the integrity, the prophetic. And um yeah,
[03:08:28] integrity, the prophetic. And um yeah, that's where I've always landed and
[03:08:30] that's where I've always landed and always been in that place, Mike. And so
[03:08:37] >> Okay. And so, so you've never you you
[03:08:40] >> Okay. And so, so you've never you you never looked up people's information uh
[03:08:43] never looked up people's information uh to in some people would say enhance a
[03:08:46] to in some people would say enhance a prophetic word or some people call it
[03:08:47] prophetic word or some people call it cheating. Um I would I would consider
[03:08:50] cheating. Um I would I would consider those kind of actions blasphemy against
[03:08:52] those kind of actions blasphemy against the name of God to fake a prophetic
[03:08:54] the name of God to fake a prophetic anything.
[03:08:55] anything. >> Yeah, absolutely agree with you there.
[03:08:57] >> Yeah, absolutely agree with you there. And you know for me prophetic ministry
[03:09:00] And you know for me prophetic ministry has been something I've been in 20 plus
[03:09:02] has been something I've been in 20 plus years and haven't haven't needed to
[03:09:05] years and haven't haven't needed to enhance. haven't felt under pressure and
[03:09:07] enhance. haven't felt under pressure and haven't needed to do things that have,
[03:09:10] haven't needed to do things that have, you know, would be blasphemous and
[03:09:12] you know, would be blasphemous and against the Lord. I I fear the Lord too
[03:09:14] against the Lord. I I fear the Lord too much and love the church too much to do
[03:09:15] much and love the church too much to do that.
[03:09:16] that. >> Mhm.
[03:09:18] >> Mhm. So, if we if we can, I'd like to revisit
[03:09:21] So, if we if we can, I'd like to revisit some of the past then those those
[03:09:24] some of the past then those those particular allegations and stuff like
[03:09:25] particular allegations and stuff like that. And so, um I don't know if
[03:09:27] that. And so, um I don't know if Nathaniel or or Chris would like to
[03:09:30] Nathaniel or or Chris would like to share first.
[03:09:35] Yeah, up to you, Mike. Would would you
[03:09:38] Yeah, up to you, Mike. Would would you like us to What would you prefer?
[03:09:39] like us to What would you prefer? >> That'd be wonderful. I I think if you
[03:09:41] >> That'd be wonderful. I I think if you could share some of the uh particular
[03:09:45] could share some of the uh particular evidences again that were looked at to
[03:09:48] evidences again that were looked at to me that seem from at this moment, and
[03:09:50] me that seem from at this moment, and I'm open to hear other other things
[03:09:51] I'm open to hear other other things here, but it it looks like an incredibly
[03:09:54] here, but it it looks like an incredibly strong and convincing case that um that
[03:09:57] strong and convincing case that um that the data mining is exactly what
[03:09:58] the data mining is exactly what happened.
[03:10:01] happened. >> Yeah. Yeah. We could definitely share
[03:10:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. We could definitely share that. And Chris, you can um jump in.
[03:10:06] that. And Chris, you can um jump in. >> Jump in.
[03:10:07] >> Jump in. >> Yeah. Um
[03:10:10] >> Yeah. Um and for us, we we'll do our best to walk
[03:10:12] and for us, we we'll do our best to walk through this. It's not something we have
[03:10:14] through this. It's not something we have spoken much of for the last decade. Um
[03:10:19] spoken much of for the last decade. Um but we'll just try to keep it to
[03:10:22] but we'll just try to keep it to the facts um as as best we can. Uh so in
[03:10:27] the facts um as as best we can. Uh so in 2015, November 2015, my role at the time
[03:10:32] 2015, November 2015, my role at the time was on media and live stream uh at Glory
[03:10:36] was on media and live stream uh at Glory City Church. At the time they held a
[03:10:38] City Church. At the time they held a conference, a prophetic conference uh of
[03:10:41] conference, a prophetic conference uh of which Gary was a speaker. Um I was not
[03:10:45] which Gary was a speaker. Um I was not at the session that he was speaking at.
[03:10:49] at the session that he was speaking at. It was another member in my team. And uh
[03:10:53] It was another member in my team. And uh I just remember when debriefing with
[03:10:56] I just remember when debriefing with this member, they they said something
[03:10:57] this member, they they said something that just uh stood out to me. They said
[03:11:01] that just uh stood out to me. They said uh marveled at Gary's gift and accuracy.
[03:11:05] uh marveled at Gary's gift and accuracy. Mentioned that he had called out names
[03:11:07] Mentioned that he had called out names and and dates and for myself we've
[03:11:10] and and dates and for myself we've always loved the prophetic and being at
[03:11:13] always loved the prophetic and being at Katherine's church on staff are no
[03:11:14] Katherine's church on staff are no strangers to what's possible in the
[03:11:17] strangers to what's possible in the prophetic. Um but the next thing they
[03:11:19] prophetic. Um but the next thing they said was uh as a joke pretty much. Um oh
[03:11:23] said was uh as a joke pretty much. Um oh I mean he was so accurate. I mean unless
[03:11:25] I mean he was so accurate. I mean unless he was looking up on Facebook and he
[03:11:27] he was looking up on Facebook and he kind of laughed and then moved on in his
[03:11:28] kind of laughed and then moved on in his conversation. For me it was it was just
[03:11:31] conversation. For me it was it was just enough to remember but I didn't think
[03:11:33] enough to remember but I didn't think much of it. Later when I was reviewing
[03:11:36] much of it. Later when I was reviewing the session, part of my role, uh,
[03:11:41] the session, part of my role, uh, I did notice a pattern with Gary's words
[03:11:44] I did notice a pattern with Gary's words that seemed very specific on names,
[03:11:48] that seemed very specific on names, dates, and certain visuals. Um,
[03:11:52] dates, and certain visuals. Um, and being on the media team, like
[03:11:55] and being on the media team, like obviously integrity is really important
[03:11:56] obviously integrity is really important to me. Um, to, you know, there's a
[03:11:59] to me. Um, to, you know, there's a miracle testimony that comes through
[03:12:00] miracle testimony that comes through just to double check the facts. It's
[03:12:02] just to double check the facts. It's part of the role. And um it it bothered
[03:12:06] part of the role. And um it it bothered me even the thought of it as much as
[03:12:07] me even the thought of it as much as it's bothered everyone else. And
[03:12:10] it's bothered everyone else. And honestly uh the thing I did next was to
[03:12:12] honestly uh the thing I did next was to quickly debunk it for myself believing
[03:12:15] quickly debunk it for myself believing it not to be possible. I didn't know
[03:12:17] it not to be possible. I didn't know what data mining even meant back then. I
[03:12:19] what data mining even meant back then. I was in my early 20s. And um I simply
[03:12:23] was in my early 20s. And um I simply while reviewing the session did what I
[03:12:26] while reviewing the session did what I thought someone may do if they were to
[03:12:28] thought someone may do if they were to be data mining. jumped on Facebook and
[03:12:30] be data mining. jumped on Facebook and looked at an event we had. Um, at the
[03:12:33] looked at an event we had. Um, at the time, Glory City Church had an event and
[03:12:36] time, Glory City Church had an event and people uh would usually select on
[03:12:38] people uh would usually select on Facebook attending and there were about
[03:12:40] Facebook attending and there were about 300 people I believe. Is that right?
[03:12:42] 300 people I believe. Is that right? >> I can't remember. I think
[03:12:43] >> I can't remember. I think >> it was a lot though.
[03:12:45] >> it was a lot though. >> And um I just simply went along as
[03:12:47] >> And um I just simply went along as Gary's giving the words out again,
[03:12:49] Gary's giving the words out again, wanting to pretty much disprove it to
[03:12:51] wanting to pretty much disprove it to myself, thinking maybe there'll be a bit
[03:12:52] myself, thinking maybe there'll be a bit of overlap. You kind of expect that
[03:12:54] of overlap. You kind of expect that there might be a few names or dates that
[03:12:56] there might be a few names or dates that that overlap. That's fine. Honestly, my
[03:12:59] that overlap. That's fine. Honestly, my expectation was couple of words in to to
[03:13:02] expectation was couple of words in to to move on and be like, "Hey, this is all
[03:13:03] move on and be like, "Hey, this is all good." But it did become concerning
[03:13:07] good." But it did become concerning fairly quick when I when I would go
[03:13:09] fairly quick when I when I would go through and there would be a name
[03:13:11] through and there would be a name mentioned or a date mentioned and then a
[03:13:14] mentioned or a date mentioned and then a word and one by one it it correlated
[03:13:16] word and one by one it it correlated with people who had clicked attending on
[03:13:19] with people who had clicked attending on the event and I felt quite sick to the
[03:13:22] the event and I felt quite sick to the stomach at even the thought of it. Um,
[03:13:25] stomach at even the thought of it. Um, and then it started to be people who
[03:13:27] and then it started to be people who were not in the room, uh, but had
[03:13:29] were not in the room, uh, but had selected the event. And again, it would
[03:13:31] selected the event. And again, it would be like, uh, a date, a name, and then a
[03:13:36] be like, uh, a date, a name, and then a certain picture that usually was right
[03:13:38] certain picture that usually was right up on the on the wall of their Facebook
[03:13:40] up on the on the wall of their Facebook page. And it started to become more
[03:13:42] page. And it started to become more concerning as I went through it. Um,
[03:13:45] concerning as I went through it. Um, finally, by the time I got to the end,
[03:13:48] finally, by the time I got to the end, 12 out of 15 words were people on the
[03:13:51] 12 out of 15 words were people on the event. Um, there were 500 people in the
[03:13:53] event. Um, there were 500 people in the building, I believe, and 300 people on
[03:13:56] building, I believe, and 300 people on the event. I kind of expected that there
[03:13:57] the event. I kind of expected that there might be a few not on the event. There
[03:14:00] might be a few not on the event. There was only three left out of the full 15
[03:14:02] was only three left out of the full 15 words. And two of those were simply just
[03:14:05] words. And two of those were simply just the name or a date. There wasn't enough
[03:14:06] the name or a date. There wasn't enough to know for sure, but there was one, a
[03:14:09] to know for sure, but there was one, a Sarah King, who was a friend of ours,
[03:14:10] Sarah King, who was a friend of ours, and she had spobifida, and she was not
[03:14:13] and she had spobifida, and she was not on the event. And for me, that was like,
[03:14:15] on the event. And for me, that was like, okay, at least there's one. Don't
[03:14:17] okay, at least there's one. Don't overreact here. Um, I shared it with my
[03:14:21] overreact here. Um, I shared it with my wife Haley that night. A little bit
[03:14:23] wife Haley that night. A little bit concerned, but also not really wanting
[03:14:25] concerned, but also not really wanting to believe something like that um at
[03:14:27] to believe something like that um at that point, but I was at least
[03:14:29] that point, but I was at least concerned. Um, I shared it with you
[03:14:32] concerned. Um, I shared it with you >> and we Sarah as my good friend when I
[03:14:36] >> and we Sarah as my good friend when I asked her um, you know, about the
[03:14:38] asked her um, you know, about the conference, she said that she was
[03:14:40] conference, she said that she was actually babysitting Gary's child and
[03:14:44] actually babysitting Gary's child and um, she'd met him in the hallway
[03:14:47] um, she'd met him in the hallway earlier. That's what she said. And
[03:14:51] earlier. That's what she said. And >> and also your reaction when I first told
[03:14:53] >> and also your reaction when I first told you about my concerns.
[03:14:56] you about my concerns. >> Yeah. I didn't believe it at first. I
[03:14:59] >> Yeah. I didn't believe it at first. I didn't didn't think it was very likely.
[03:15:02] didn't didn't think it was very likely. Uh I believed it to be genuine prophetic
[03:15:06] Uh I believed it to be genuine prophetic words, but
[03:15:09] words, but I started looking into the specific
[03:15:11] I started looking into the specific words just like Nathaniel did. And the
[03:15:13] words just like Nathaniel did. And the more
[03:15:15] more names that we went through, the more
[03:15:17] names that we went through, the more alarmed I started to feel and the more
[03:15:20] alarmed I started to feel and the more concerned I started to feel.
[03:15:23] concerned I started to feel. >> And when if I can just add that uh when
[03:15:26] >> And when if I can just add that uh when he met Sarah that time in the hallway,
[03:15:29] he met Sarah that time in the hallway, he specifically asked for her name
[03:15:32] he specifically asked for her name as a and he think that's how she tells
[03:15:35] as a and he think that's how she tells it. Yeah.
[03:15:37] it. Yeah. >> Yeah.
[03:15:39] >> Yeah. >> Yes. So
[03:15:42] >> Yes. So yeah. Um, honestly, Haley's usually the
[03:15:44] yeah. Um, honestly, Haley's usually the grounded one. I was kind of hoping to
[03:15:46] grounded one. I was kind of hoping to hear like, "You probably overreacted.
[03:15:48] hear like, "You probably overreacted. Don't worry about it." To be honest. Uh,
[03:15:50] Don't worry about it." To be honest. Uh, but with that
[03:15:52] but with that being Sarah had already had her name
[03:15:55] being Sarah had already had her name asked of her before the session started
[03:15:57] asked of her before the session started and was babysitting the kid, it it
[03:15:59] and was babysitting the kid, it it suddenly became that every single person
[03:16:01] suddenly became that every single person on the list that we saw was either
[03:16:03] on the list that we saw was either attending the event or like Sarah. And
[03:16:06] attending the event or like Sarah. And um, we again at this stage, I didn't
[03:16:09] um, we again at this stage, I didn't have a grid for this. Chris lived at
[03:16:11] have a grid for this. Chris lived at Katherine Rena's house at the time. I
[03:16:13] Katherine Rena's house at the time. I lived next door to them. We were all
[03:16:15] lived next door to them. We were all very close. So, um, we I think Chris was
[03:16:18] very close. So, um, we I think Chris was over our house. I think we started to
[03:16:19] over our house. I think we started to just quickly share the concern with
[03:16:21] just quickly share the concern with Chris um hoping that we'd be able to
[03:16:24] Chris um hoping that we'd be able to bring it to Catherine.
[03:16:26] bring it to Catherine. Over to you, Chris.
[03:16:28] Over to you, Chris. >> Yeah. So, so I came over to their their
[03:16:31] >> Yeah. So, so I came over to their their place and they're like, you know, this
[03:16:34] place and they're like, you know, this couldn't be right, is it? And uh and we
[03:16:36] couldn't be right, is it? And uh and we just went through them one by one and I
[03:16:38] just went through them one by one and I said, well, let's let's have a look. And
[03:16:41] said, well, let's let's have a look. And uh it was um it was interesting that you
[03:16:45] uh it was um it was interesting that you know if there was something brought up
[03:16:46] know if there was something brought up about one of the girls playing guitar or
[03:16:49] about one of the girls playing guitar or her cover photo was a guitar or another
[03:16:51] her cover photo was a guitar or another word about a girl dancing her literal
[03:16:53] word about a girl dancing her literal cover photo like it you really didn't
[03:16:55] cover photo like it you really didn't have to go very far. All the information
[03:16:58] have to go very far. All the information was there and it was enough to I guess
[03:17:01] was there and it was enough to I guess say it's concerning. Of course there's
[03:17:03] say it's concerning. Of course there's always that element of well you know
[03:17:05] always that element of well you know Holy Spirit could tell you things are on
[03:17:07] Holy Spirit could tell you things are on Facebook. there's a lot on Facebook and
[03:17:10] Facebook. there's a lot on Facebook and uh you know we spoke to Katherine
[03:17:13] uh you know we spoke to Katherine uh she didn't want to believe it she had
[03:17:15] uh she didn't want to believe it she had relationship with Gary um and uh and
[03:17:19] relationship with Gary um and uh and said no I know Gary you know this this
[03:17:22] said no I know Gary you know this this can't be right this can't be true we
[03:17:24] can't be right this can't be true we also were speaking with another leader
[03:17:25] also were speaking with another leader there at the time uh Joel Shaw he didn't
[03:17:28] there at the time uh Joel Shaw he didn't believe it you know he's like no no no
[03:17:30] believe it you know he's like no no no couldn't be couldn't be so uh Katherine
[03:17:33] couldn't be couldn't be so uh Katherine didn't really express any interest to
[03:17:35] didn't really express any interest to want to discuss it or go further with it
[03:17:37] want to discuss it or go further with it or have any involvement with it. Um,
[03:17:40] or have any involvement with it. Um, felt like it was a waste of our time or
[03:17:43] felt like it was a waste of our time or a distraction. A lot of these things,
[03:17:45] a distraction. A lot of these things, what was good was that Joel believed it
[03:17:47] what was good was that Joel believed it and was in in Gary's camp and we weren't
[03:17:52] and was in in Gary's camp and we weren't sure. Obviously, we wanted to believe
[03:17:54] sure. Obviously, we wanted to believe Gary. He's a a lovely likable
[03:17:56] Gary. He's a a lovely likable personality and we were enjoying his his
[03:17:59] personality and we were enjoying his his company when he'd come and minister. So
[03:18:02] company when he'd come and minister. So we didn't want to believe it but we
[03:18:04] we didn't want to believe it but we wanted to find a disproof and Joel's
[03:18:06] wanted to find a disproof and Joel's strong position that this is wrong this
[03:18:08] strong position that this is wrong this isn't right presented a 3mon back and
[03:18:12] isn't right presented a 3mon back and forth that that took place where you
[03:18:15] forth that that took place where you know it would be like okay what about
[03:18:17] know it would be like okay what about this meeting over here this him
[03:18:20] this meeting over here this him conference there was no there was no
[03:18:21] conference there was no there was no attending list there was nowhere to
[03:18:24] attending list there was nowhere to click attend so how does he know who's
[03:18:27] click attend so how does he know who's going to be there and we're like oh
[03:18:29] going to be there and we're like oh that's a good one and then we'd go back
[03:18:31] that's a good one and then we'd go back through And we we'd realized every
[03:18:34] through And we we'd realized every person that was prophesied over were
[03:18:35] person that was prophesied over were people in our team or that uh church's
[03:18:39] people in our team or that uh church's team
[03:18:41] team and it was all people that you could you
[03:18:43] and it was all people that you could you could quite confidently guarantee that
[03:18:44] could quite confidently guarantee that he knew would be there. We we literally
[03:18:48] he knew would be there. We we literally came away saying, "Wow, wasn't our team
[03:18:50] came away saying, "Wow, wasn't our team blessed?" Like God really blessed our
[03:18:53] blessed?" Like God really blessed our our staff at this other church meeting
[03:18:56] our staff at this other church meeting that we were at. So it was like
[03:18:59] that we were at. So it was like suspicious again. It wasn't like a, oh,
[03:19:01] suspicious again. It wasn't like a, oh, okay, cool. He's just got a bunch of
[03:19:03] okay, cool. He's just got a bunch of random people with no way to know who
[03:19:05] random people with no way to know who was there. It was very honed in on
[03:19:08] was there. It was very honed in on people that you could confidently assume
[03:19:10] people that you could confidently assume would be there. Another example was a
[03:19:12] would be there. Another example was a word that Joel found that he said,
[03:19:14] word that Joel found that he said, "Okay, he literally gave details for an
[03:19:17] "Okay, he literally gave details for an address here." He he said, "You go I'm
[03:19:20] address here." He he said, "You go I'm seeing this road and you're going down
[03:19:21] seeing this road and you're going down this house and and Joel Joel was just
[03:19:24] this house and and Joel Joel was just looking for one, mind you, in in his
[03:19:27] looking for one, mind you, in in his mind, one way that you couldn't access
[03:19:29] mind, one way that you couldn't access it online would debunk everything, which
[03:19:32] it online would debunk everything, which I'm not so sure that that that
[03:19:35] I'm not so sure that that that is applied sound logic, but but that's
[03:19:38] is applied sound logic, but but that's what he was looking for." And he found
[03:19:40] what he was looking for." And he found one. And uh and Nathaniel was looking
[03:19:43] one. And uh and Nathaniel was looking and and there was no way to find that on
[03:19:45] and and there was no way to find that on Facebook.
[03:19:47] Facebook. After a bit, Nathaniel managed to find
[03:19:49] After a bit, Nathaniel managed to find that those details in a Google search.
[03:19:52] that those details in a Google search. It was like second result, I believe,
[03:19:55] It was like second result, I believe, and you could find this guy's
[03:19:56] and you could find this guy's information. So, this is 3 months of
[03:19:59] information. So, this is 3 months of back and forth with, in my opinion, only
[03:20:03] back and forth with, in my opinion, only strengthening the plausibility of of
[03:20:06] strengthening the plausibility of of this scenario. So, uh yeah, and then uh
[03:20:10] this scenario. So, uh yeah, and then uh uh leading us to, you know, leading the
[03:20:14] uh leading us to, you know, leading the creation of this fake um Facebook
[03:20:16] creation of this fake um Facebook account as a bit of a as a bit of a
[03:20:19] account as a bit of a as a bit of a fleece to God and and a bit of a a
[03:20:21] fleece to God and and a bit of a a confirmation. Um, I'm not sure uh I'd be
[03:20:26] confirmation. Um, I'm not sure uh I'd be very interested to hear from
[03:20:29] very interested to hear from uh Peter or Allan as to what it is that
[03:20:32] uh Peter or Allan as to what it is that they would need uh if if a scenario like
[03:20:36] they would need uh if if a scenario like this was to happen, what it is that they
[03:20:38] this was to happen, what it is that they they feel like they would need to see.
[03:20:40] they feel like they would need to see. Uh cuz for us that was kind of
[03:20:44] Uh cuz for us that was kind of what we would need to see and then that
[03:20:47] what we would need to see and then that happened. So
[03:20:48] happened. So >> yeah,
[03:20:49] >> yeah, >> I'm not sure.
[03:20:50] >> I'm not sure. >> Sorry, Nathaniel. That's okay. I could
[03:20:54] >> Sorry, Nathaniel. That's okay. I could Sorry. Did you Did you want to go? Go
[03:20:56] Sorry. Did you Did you want to go? Go for it. Um,
[03:20:58] for it. Um, >> I was just seeking clarity on Chris's
[03:21:00] >> I was just seeking clarity on Chris's question. What was your question, Chris?
[03:21:03] question. What was your question, Chris? >> My question was, what is it that you
[03:21:05] >> My question was, what is it that you would need to see if somebody came to
[03:21:07] would need to see if somebody came to you and said, "We we're very confident
[03:21:10] you and said, "We we're very confident that this situation is happening. Uh,
[03:21:13] that this situation is happening. Uh, someone's data mining on Facebook."
[03:21:16] someone's data mining on Facebook." What would you what would do it for you?
[03:21:20] What would you what would do it for you? >> Yeah.
[03:21:22] >> Yeah. It's a great question, Chris. It mirrors
[03:21:25] It's a great question, Chris. It mirrors a question I was just thinking of of
[03:21:28] a question I was just thinking of of what would it take Mike?
[03:21:30] what would it take Mike? So, my question is to Mike. Mike, one of
[03:21:33] So, my question is to Mike. Mike, one of the things I've been thinking as we plan
[03:21:34] the things I've been thinking as we plan on meeting is what would it take you,
[03:21:37] on meeting is what would it take you, Mike, to think that or to believe that
[03:21:39] Mike, to think that or to believe that Gary isn't guilty of these things?
[03:21:43] Gary isn't guilty of these things? >> Um, just the falsification of the
[03:21:44] >> Um, just the falsification of the evidence that's been presented.
[03:21:47] evidence that's been presented. the false,
[03:21:48] the false, >> you know, if if you get if you get the
[03:21:49] >> you know, if if you get if you get the victim's finger or the the perpetrator's
[03:21:51] victim's finger or the the perpetrator's supposed, you know, accused, if you get
[03:21:53] supposed, you know, accused, if you get their fingerprints on the murder weapon,
[03:21:56] their fingerprints on the murder weapon, what would you need to undo that? Well,
[03:21:57] what would you need to undo that? Well, you would need to show how they got on
[03:21:58] you would need to show how they got on the weapon that was unrelated to the
[03:22:00] the weapon that was unrelated to the murder. You got to falsify the evidence
[03:22:02] murder. You got to falsify the evidence somehow. What what we have is a number
[03:22:04] somehow. What what we have is a number of examples of of of information that
[03:22:06] of examples of of of information that appear to have come from Facebook
[03:22:08] appear to have come from Facebook confirming not only the data is
[03:22:11] confirming not only the data is consistent with with stuff on Facebook,
[03:22:13] consistent with with stuff on Facebook, right, which is already very anomalous
[03:22:16] right, which is already very anomalous um but the people having checked in or
[03:22:19] um but the people having checked in or been associated with the event or the
[03:22:20] been associated with the event or the person's name being known. Then we have
[03:22:23] person's name being known. Then we have the the someone could call it
[03:22:25] the the someone could call it enttrapment. I think it was a godly
[03:22:26] enttrapment. I think it was a godly righteous thing to do to create that
[03:22:28] righteous thing to do to create that Facebook page um and say, "Hey, this
[03:22:30] Facebook page um and say, "Hey, this could exonerate the guy. this this this
[03:22:32] could exonerate the guy. this this this could go either way. And you know, then
[03:22:36] could go either way. And you know, then all of a sudden he gives a word that
[03:22:37] all of a sudden he gives a word that looks like it comes right from the page.
[03:22:39] looks like it comes right from the page. Then there's an email that shows up that
[03:22:41] Then there's an email that shows up that then that Google account gets deleted
[03:22:42] then that Google account gets deleted when people start asking questions about
[03:22:44] when people start asking questions about it being associated with Gary. And then
[03:22:46] it being associated with Gary. And then all of a sudden he's like, I got hacked
[03:22:47] all of a sudden he's like, I got hacked and all this stuff. And um everything
[03:22:50] and all this stuff. And um everything about that, it seems like the most plain
[03:22:53] about that, it seems like the most plain on your face thing is that Gary's
[03:22:56] on your face thing is that Gary's absolutely guilty and you guys are
[03:22:57] absolutely guilty and you guys are empowering him to do it and oppressing
[03:22:59] empowering him to do it and oppressing the people who want to hold him
[03:23:00] the people who want to hold him accountable. That's what that's what
[03:23:01] accountable. That's what that's what this looks like.
[03:23:02] this looks like. >> And and what was the last word? Pressing
[03:23:04] >> And and what was the last word? Pressing people.
[03:23:05] people. >> Oppressing.
[03:23:06] >> Oppressing. >> Oppressing.
[03:23:09] >> Oppressing. >> Yeah. Gary, I you know, you guys, I have
[03:23:12] >> Yeah. Gary, I you know, you guys, I have sat across from person after person in
[03:23:14] sat across from person after person in this process. I sat across from Chris
[03:23:16] this process. I sat across from Chris Reed who tried to smoo me and he lied
[03:23:20] Reed who tried to smoo me and he lied through his teeth. And the only reason I
[03:23:21] through his teeth. And the only reason I knew he was lying through his teeth is
[03:23:22] knew he was lying through his teeth is because I I knew more than he knew I
[03:23:24] because I I knew more than he knew I knew, right? I held information back
[03:23:26] knew, right? I held information back because I wanted to find out if truth
[03:23:28] because I wanted to find out if truth would be shared. And it it's it's become
[03:23:32] would be shared. And it it's it's become easier for me to to go, yeah, it is
[03:23:35] easier for me to to go, yeah, it is possible for people to do this kind of
[03:23:38] possible for people to do this kind of grift where they feel empowered and they
[03:23:40] grift where they feel empowered and they think maybe they think but there's so
[03:23:42] think maybe they think but there's so much good being done it's okay or I'm
[03:23:44] much good being done it's okay or I'm just trying to sort of kickstart the
[03:23:45] just trying to sort of kickstart the work of the Holy Spirit or whatever they
[03:23:47] work of the Holy Spirit or whatever they think they tell themselves. I don't
[03:23:48] think they tell themselves. I don't know. But I do know that this is
[03:23:51] know. But I do know that this is overwhelming evidence that in in the
[03:23:53] overwhelming evidence that in in the eyes of just about any reasonable
[03:23:56] eyes of just about any reasonable person, it would be like, Gary, you have
[03:23:59] person, it would be like, Gary, you have to have an incredibly good explanation
[03:24:01] to have an incredibly good explanation for this. It's not a vacuum. It's not
[03:24:03] for this. It's not a vacuum. It's not just an accusation. There's there's a
[03:24:05] just an accusation. There's there's a flood of evidence.
[03:24:10] >> I'm not trying to smooth you, Mike, and
[03:24:12] >> I'm not trying to smooth you, Mike, and again, not trying to um deceive or just,
[03:24:15] again, not trying to um deceive or just, you know, be deceptive. I my process has
[03:24:19] you know, be deceptive. I my process has always been my process in words of
[03:24:21] always been my process in words of knowledge and in prophetic ministry and
[03:24:23] knowledge and in prophetic ministry and and
[03:24:27] in 20 years, you know, of prophetic
[03:24:29] in 20 years, you know, of prophetic ministry, I there's no pressure for me
[03:24:32] ministry, I there's no pressure for me having to to come up with stuff. And
[03:24:37] having to to come up with stuff. And there's words I've had that that
[03:24:38] there's words I've had that that absolutely have no
[03:24:41] absolutely have no um connection to information and stuff
[03:24:44] um connection to information and stuff like that. And so yeah, I'm not I'm not
[03:24:47] like that. And so yeah, I'm not I'm not here yet to do that.
[03:24:48] here yet to do that. >> So Gary, maybe you could answer this.
[03:24:50] >> So Gary, maybe you could answer this. Like why did that email trace back to
[03:24:53] Like why did that email trace back to your account?
[03:24:58] >> It didn't.
[03:25:05] >> Can you explain that? It's It didn't Can
[03:25:07] >> Can you explain that? It's It didn't Can you explain that to me?
[03:25:10] Well, the the email that um again I was
[03:25:15] Well, the the email that um again I was I've been accused of sending that email
[03:25:17] I've been accused of sending that email was sent uh while while I was having
[03:25:20] was sent uh while while I was having dinner uh with Katherine and Tom. And so
[03:25:23] dinner uh with Katherine and Tom. And so that email was sent at 8:50
[03:25:25] that email was sent at 8:50 um while I'm in the middle of a dinner.
[03:25:27] um while I'm in the middle of a dinner. And so I don't know how I could send an
[03:25:30] And so I don't know how I could send an email and have dinner at the same time.
[03:25:39] Um, okay. I'm not
[03:25:42] Um, okay. I'm not You really You're You're a tech guy and
[03:25:43] You really You're You're a tech guy and you don't know how to send an email at a
[03:25:45] you don't know how to send an email at a different time than you type the email.
[03:25:50] >> That That feature didn't exist until
[03:25:53] >> That That feature didn't exist until 2019. Gmail didn't introduce that
[03:25:56] 2019. Gmail didn't introduce that feature until 3 years later.
[03:26:00] feature until 3 years later. >> Really? So, you guys have looked into
[03:26:02] >> Really? So, you guys have looked into this. What What else have you not shared
[03:26:04] this. What What else have you not shared with me then? just tell me the stuff cuz
[03:26:07] with me then? just tell me the stuff cuz here's a claim from you, right? I was
[03:26:09] here's a claim from you, right? I was eating dinner at that time. Okay, I
[03:26:12] eating dinner at that time. Okay, I don't know if that's true or not. I also
[03:26:14] don't know if that's true or not. I also know that there's other there's ways to
[03:26:16] know that there's other there's ways to delay an email. Now you're now I'd have
[03:26:18] delay an email. Now you're now I'd have to go and validate whether there was a
[03:26:20] to go and validate whether there was a way to do it back in 2016 or not, which
[03:26:22] way to do it back in 2016 or not, which I assume there was. Um, but then I
[03:26:26] I assume there was. Um, but then I wouldn't know how to validate whether
[03:26:27] wouldn't know how to validate whether you were having dinner at that time or
[03:26:28] you were having dinner at that time or if you didn't stop and go to the
[03:26:29] if you didn't stop and go to the bathroom for 5 minutes um or anything
[03:26:32] bathroom for 5 minutes um or anything else. So, so this is this is not this
[03:26:35] else. So, so this is this is not this does not constitute evidence or an
[03:26:37] does not constitute evidence or an explanation that I can validate.
[03:26:41] explanation that I can validate. >> And I think what you're pointing to,
[03:26:43] >> And I think what you're pointing to, Mike, is and maybe Pete wants to jump in
[03:26:46] Mike, is and maybe Pete wants to jump in cuz I'm new to this. I wasn't there at
[03:26:48] cuz I'm new to this. I wasn't there at the time, but I think everything that
[03:26:50] the time, but I think everything that we're pointing to is the need for the
[03:26:54] we're pointing to is the need for the forensic examination because you're
[03:26:57] forensic examination because you're right, Mike. any reasonable objective
[03:27:00] right, Mike. any reasonable objective observer would come to a similar
[03:27:02] observer would come to a similar conclusion as the one you're coming to.
[03:27:04] conclusion as the one you're coming to. Like, hey, this looks ridiculous.
[03:27:07] Like, hey, this looks ridiculous. Um, and you can say things like, well,
[03:27:12] Um, and you can say things like, well, it appeared that Welsh Eagle was the
[03:27:14] it appeared that Welsh Eagle was the recovery email for Sarah's email, but
[03:27:18] recovery email for Sarah's email, but you can, and Gary, God bless him. Thank
[03:27:21] you can, and Gary, God bless him. Thank you for screenshotting this.
[03:27:24] you for screenshotting this. Put in multiple emails and you get the
[03:27:27] Put in multiple emails and you get the same response from Google saying, "Oh, a
[03:27:29] same response from Google saying, "Oh, a security code has been sent to this
[03:27:31] security code has been sent to this email." And Nathaniel as well in his
[03:27:34] email." And Nathaniel as well in his note to the forensic examiner was like,
[03:27:37] note to the forensic examiner was like, "Actually, the link between Welsh Eagle
[03:27:40] "Actually, the link between Welsh Eagle as a backup email address is not
[03:27:42] as a backup email address is not actually that valid."
[03:27:45] actually that valid." >> That valid? What does that mean? Could I
[03:27:47] >> That valid? What does that mean? Could I could I talk to that guy?
[03:27:49] could I talk to that guy? >> Nathaniel. Yeah,
[03:27:52] >> Nathaniel. Yeah, >> it was Nathaniel that said it wasn't
[03:27:53] >> it was Nathaniel that said it wasn't valid.
[03:27:54] valid. >> Yeah.
[03:27:54] >> Yeah. >> No, that was not my words. Um, you've
[03:27:56] >> No, that was not my words. Um, you've got the document there. Um, it's the
[03:27:59] got the document there. Um, it's the same document that's been available for
[03:28:00] same document that's been available for the last 10 years. We haven't put
[03:28:01] the last 10 years. We haven't put anything else down. Um, but
[03:28:06] anything else down. Um, but I guess we are talking about quite a few
[03:28:10] I guess we are talking about quite a few things that do pertain to us. Mike,
[03:28:11] things that do pertain to us. Mike, would you like us to share just what
[03:28:13] would you like us to share just what happened with next step? Cuz for us,
[03:28:17] happened with next step? Cuz for us, where we're at with the story so far, we
[03:28:19] where we're at with the story so far, we were all deeply concerned. But as
[03:28:22] were all deeply concerned. But as Katherine rightfully mentioned in a
[03:28:24] Katherine rightfully mentioned in a meeting we had um
[03:28:25] meeting we had um >> before you go down that line, could I
[03:28:27] >> before you go down that line, could I interject and just Nathaniel when you
[03:28:29] interject and just Nathaniel when you said those were not my words?
[03:28:31] said those were not my words? >> Yes,
[03:28:31] >> Yes, >> I had an email from you on 22nd of July
[03:28:35] >> I had an email from you on 22nd of July 2016. Would I would it be appropriate
[03:28:38] 2016. Would I would it be appropriate for me to read that email in reference
[03:28:40] for me to read that email in reference to the ver verifability?
[03:28:43] to the ver verifability? >> Of course, I'll just say um I've always
[03:28:47] >> Of course, I'll just say um I've always been transparent with this and so my
[03:28:51] been transparent with this and so my words on that from what I remember and I
[03:28:54] words on that from what I remember and I imagine you'll read this out was that he
[03:28:56] imagine you'll read this out was that he couldn't be absolutely identified and
[03:28:59] couldn't be absolutely identified and I've held that to this day. Um but the
[03:29:02] I've held that to this day. Um but the things I'm about to share and I have
[03:29:04] things I'm about to share and I have always held to those. I believe it's
[03:29:05] always held to those. I believe it's consistent with the document are three
[03:29:08] consistent with the document are three reasons, three that we believe the email
[03:29:11] reasons, three that we believe the email is
[03:29:13] is highly likely to be connected to Gary.
[03:29:15] highly likely to be connected to Gary. I've never stated on the record that it
[03:29:16] I've never stated on the record that it unequivocally is, but what is clear is
[03:29:20] unequivocally is, but what is clear is what I could talk about in a few minutes
[03:29:22] what I could talk about in a few minutes if that's okay. You you're more than
[03:29:23] if that's okay. You you're more than welcome to read that. I've
[03:29:25] welcome to read that. I've >> just hearing you say, "Hey, no, no, I I
[03:29:28] >> just hearing you say, "Hey, no, no, I I did say it wasn't 100% verifiable."
[03:29:30] did say it wasn't 100% verifiable." That's what I pointed to. Mike asked,
[03:29:33] That's what I pointed to. Mike asked, "Hey, can I speak to the guy?" And that
[03:29:35] "Hey, can I speak to the guy?" And that was you. And I had
[03:29:37] was you. And I had >> Alan, the phrase that jumped out to me
[03:29:38] >> Alan, the phrase that jumped out to me was that it was not that accurate.
[03:29:42] was that it was not that accurate. >> Which which is a way of saying
[03:29:43] >> Which which is a way of saying something's inaccurate. So that the
[03:29:44] something's inaccurate. So that the identification of the email with him is
[03:29:46] identification of the email with him is inaccurate. And that would be news to me
[03:29:48] inaccurate. And that would be news to me and not consistent with what I've heard
[03:29:49] and not consistent with what I've heard so far.
[03:29:50] so far. >> Well, let me just read this paragraph
[03:29:52] >> Well, let me just read this paragraph then so we're all on the same page and
[03:29:53] then so we're all on the same page and I'm not paraphrasing Nathaniel. Great.
[03:29:57] I'm not paraphrasing Nathaniel. Great. In our previous document, sequence of
[03:29:59] In our previous document, sequence of events, it is stated in section 18 that
[03:30:02] events, it is stated in section 18 that there's a possible link between the
[03:30:03] there's a possible link between the Saram email address and Welsh Eagle at
[03:30:06] Saram email address and Welsh Eagle at Gmail. Please notify the investigator
[03:30:09] Gmail. Please notify the investigator that the Sarah Lam email address may or
[03:30:11] that the Sarah Lam email address may or may not be linked with Welsh Eagle as
[03:30:14] may not be linked with Welsh Eagle as Ben's friend was not able to verify
[03:30:16] Ben's friend was not able to verify definitive link, sorry, definite link
[03:30:18] definitive link, sorry, definite link between them. This information
[03:30:20] between them. This information >> definitely would have fit the word I was
[03:30:21] >> definitely would have fit the word I was looking for. Sorry, I'm not real good
[03:30:23] looking for. Sorry, I'm not real good with spelling. I would have been trying
[03:30:23] with spelling. I would have been trying to say definitively. Okay, this
[03:30:26] to say definitively. Okay, this information is not 100% verified as it
[03:30:28] information is not 100% verified as it would be illegal to do so. If this link
[03:30:31] would be illegal to do so. If this link was 100% verified by the investigator,
[03:30:34] was 100% verified by the investigator, it would settle the case. But if no link
[03:30:36] it would settle the case. But if no link is found between Sarah Lamb and Welsh
[03:30:38] is found between Sarah Lamb and Welsh Eagle, we believe it does not prove
[03:30:40] Eagle, we believe it does not prove anything as there are many ways to
[03:30:43] anything as there are many ways to create an email. Therefore, it may not
[03:30:45] create an email. Therefore, it may not be worth having the investigator spend
[03:30:46] be worth having the investigator spend any great deal of time looking into
[03:30:48] any great deal of time looking into this. So, I just wanted to make sure
[03:30:50] this. So, I just wanted to make sure that we weren't leaning into this as
[03:30:51] that we weren't leaning into this as like this is our our silver bullet when
[03:30:56] like this is our our silver bullet when >> Well, if I if I can even just take it
[03:30:58] >> Well, if I if I can even just take it back, Alan.
[03:30:59] back, Alan. >> Sorry, real quick. I wanted to make this
[03:31:00] >> Sorry, real quick. I wanted to make this clear.
[03:31:01] clear. >> Allan and Peter, you guys are convinced
[03:31:03] >> Allan and Peter, you guys are convinced that that email was not made by Gary,
[03:31:05] that that email was not made by Gary, not sent by Gary or association with
[03:31:07] not sent by Gary or association with Gary, by him or someone helping him out.
[03:31:10] Gary, by him or someone helping him out. >> I'm not convinced of anything in here,
[03:31:12] >> I'm not convinced of anything in here, Mike. I think I've held that position
[03:31:14] Mike. I think I've held that position all the way along. I I hear two sides of
[03:31:17] all the way along. I I hear two sides of a story that people are presenting
[03:31:21] a story that people are presenting different interpretations of things that
[03:31:23] different interpretations of things that I don't understand because I'm not a
[03:31:25] I don't understand because I'm not a technologically orientated person. And
[03:31:28] technologically orientated person. And so, as I've indicated all the way along,
[03:31:30] so, as I've indicated all the way along, I'm very open to the thought that Gary
[03:31:33] I'm very open to the thought that Gary is guilty. I I've made that clear in all
[03:31:36] is guilty. I I've made that clear in all sorts of email communication that I've
[03:31:38] sorts of email communication that I've communicated. I've not been trying to
[03:31:41] communicated. I've not been trying to prove that he's innocent. I've been
[03:31:43] prove that he's innocent. I've been asking the other side to prove that he's
[03:31:45] asking the other side to prove that he's guilty. And the only way that I could
[03:31:47] guilty. And the only way that I could get to that point was to have electronic
[03:31:49] get to that point was to have electronic devices investigated because there were
[03:31:52] devices investigated because there were so many different points of view as
[03:31:54] so many different points of view as we're seeing right now in this
[03:31:55] we're seeing right now in this conversation that people are saying,
[03:31:57] conversation that people are saying, "Yes, but there's this, yes, but there's
[03:31:58] "Yes, but there's this, yes, but there's that. Yes, but there's this."
[03:31:59] that. Yes, but there's this." >> And so Peter,
[03:32:01] >> And so Peter, >> no, no, no, no, no. Let me finish. Let
[03:32:03] >> no, no, no, no, no. Let me finish. Let me finish. I'm sitting here listening to
[03:32:06] me finish. I'm sitting here listening to exactly the same thing that happened 10
[03:32:08] exactly the same thing that happened 10 years ago. And so I've got different
[03:32:11] years ago. And so I've got different points of view which are expressing
[03:32:13] points of view which are expressing concern that somebody's right and
[03:32:15] concern that somebody's right and somebody's wrong. The only way that I
[03:32:17] somebody's wrong. The only way that I could resolve that was to have an
[03:32:19] could resolve that was to have an Australian federal police qualified
[03:32:21] Australian federal police qualified forensic investigator of electronic
[03:32:23] forensic investigator of electronic devices be paid to go through and
[03:32:26] devices be paid to go through and actually review did Gary search Facebook
[03:32:29] actually review did Gary search Facebook as he has been accused of who set up the
[03:32:33] as he has been accused of who set up the email address. All the things that we're
[03:32:35] email address. All the things that we're trying to resolve here through different
[03:32:38] trying to resolve here through different points of view cannot be resolved unless
[03:32:40] points of view cannot be resolved unless some unless you choose to believe a
[03:32:42] some unless you choose to believe a particular narrative about the facts
[03:32:44] particular narrative about the facts that we've got in front of us. The only
[03:32:46] that we've got in front of us. The only way that we can establish the facts is
[03:32:48] way that we can establish the facts is to have the facts investigated by
[03:32:50] to have the facts investigated by somebody who knows what actually
[03:32:51] somebody who knows what actually happened on those electronic devices.
[03:32:55] happened on those electronic devices. >> Um so in so in no in no way would you
[03:32:58] >> Um so in so in no in no way would you ever tell people that the accusations
[03:32:59] ever tell people that the accusations were debunked and proven to have no
[03:33:01] were debunked and proven to have no substance. You would never say that to
[03:33:02] substance. You would never say that to someone, right? I've never said that.
[03:33:05] someone, right? I've never said that. >> Okay. You wrote that to Victoria
[03:33:07] >> Okay. You wrote that to Victoria in March of 2025.
[03:33:12] >> In an email that I have
[03:33:14] >> In an email that I have >> I have no idea what you're talking
[03:33:15] >> I have no idea what you're talking about.
[03:33:17] about. >> You wrote to Victoria in 2016. Gary was
[03:33:20] >> You wrote to Victoria in 2016. Gary was very publicly and aggressively accused.
[03:33:23] very publicly and aggressively accused. >> Hold on. I'm going to read your words.
[03:33:25] >> Hold on. I'm going to read your words. >> No. Who's Victoria?
[03:33:27] >> No. Who's Victoria? >> She emailed you guys asking about these
[03:33:28] >> She emailed you guys asking about these issues. You had an extensive back and
[03:33:31] issues. You had an extensive back and forth with her. You guys and Gary. Gary
[03:33:32] forth with her. You guys and Gary. Gary emailed her too.
[03:33:34] emailed her too. >> Victoria who I I just don't know what
[03:33:37] >> Victoria who I I just don't know what >> her email she put her last name as
[03:33:38] >> her email she put her last name as Writes W R I T E S I think because she
[03:33:40] Writes W R I T E S I think because she likes to write
[03:33:45] >> from New Zealand.
[03:33:49] >> You wrote to Victoria in 2016. Gary was
[03:33:51] >> You wrote to Victoria in 2016. Gary was very publicly and aggressively accused
[03:33:53] very publicly and aggressively accused of using Facebook to give words of
[03:33:55] of using Facebook to give words of knowledge and prophecy. I had the
[03:33:56] knowledge and prophecy. I had the privilege of walking with Gary through
[03:33:58] privilege of walking with Gary through this very harrowing time. the
[03:33:59] this very harrowing time. the accusations were debunked and proven to
[03:34:01] accusations were debunked and proven to have no substance.
[03:34:04] have no substance. You said that you've never said that to
[03:34:06] You said that you've never said that to anyone.
[03:34:09] anyone. So, it sounds like you tell some people
[03:34:10] So, it sounds like you tell some people that it's inconclusive and you tell
[03:34:11] that it's inconclusive and you tell other people that it's been debunked.
[03:34:14] other people that it's been debunked. >> Uh
[03:34:16] >> Uh I Yep. I I have no internally I have no
[03:34:21] I Yep. I I have no internally I have no reason to believe that uh Gary is either
[03:34:26] reason to believe that uh Gary is either right or wrong until it's proven by the
[03:34:28] right or wrong until it's proven by the forensic investigation. So yes, I wrote
[03:34:30] forensic investigation. So yes, I wrote that and uh
[03:34:33] that and uh short.
[03:34:39] Um, another concern about misleading
[03:34:43] Um, another concern about misleading information was the idea that in some
[03:34:44] information was the idea that in some places it's been said that Nathaniel and
[03:34:47] places it's been said that Nathaniel and others were not willing to contribute to
[03:34:49] others were not willing to contribute to the investigation or to surrender their
[03:34:51] the investigation or to surrender their uh electronic devices.
[03:34:54] uh electronic devices. Whereas I have the email threads back
[03:34:55] Whereas I have the email threads back and forth between you guys and they said
[03:34:56] and forth between you guys and they said that they were willing to do both of
[03:34:58] that they were willing to do both of those things.
[03:35:00] those things. >> Yes. I drew your attention to that in
[03:35:02] >> Yes. I drew your attention to that in the email that I sent to you uh earlier
[03:35:05] the email that I sent to you uh earlier about the facts that I knew that. So
[03:35:07] about the facts that I knew that. So I've acknowledged that to you already.
[03:35:09] I've acknowledged that to you already. All I'm saying is that when push came to
[03:35:11] All I'm saying is that when push came to shove and we had to do it, Ben
[03:35:13] shove and we had to do it, Ben Fitzgerald representing
[03:35:16] Fitzgerald representing uh Nathaniel and Haley and Daniel
[03:35:19] uh Nathaniel and Haley and Daniel indicated that they were no longer
[03:35:22] indicated that they were no longer prepared to do that. So the end result
[03:35:24] prepared to do that. So the end result was that they were no longer prepared to
[03:35:26] was that they were no longer prepared to do that. Um but yes, they did
[03:35:28] do that. Um but yes, they did acknowledge that they were prepared to
[03:35:29] acknowledge that they were prepared to do that in the early stages. So I
[03:35:32] do that in the early stages. So I >> the way the way that you shared it, it
[03:35:33] >> the way the way that you shared it, it was it was misleading. It was very very
[03:35:36] was it was misleading. It was very very misleading to suggest that the reason
[03:35:37] misleading to suggest that the reason things didn't go forward is because they
[03:35:39] things didn't go forward is because they were not willing to submit their devices
[03:35:41] were not willing to submit their devices which they were or that they were not
[03:35:42] which they were or that they were not willing to put more forward money for
[03:35:44] willing to put more forward money for the investigation which they were.
[03:35:46] the investigation which they were. >> No. Where did I share that?
[03:35:49] >> No. Where did I share that? >> Uh I'll let the guys chime in here if
[03:35:51] >> Uh I'll let the guys chime in here if you guys can share that.
[03:35:55] >> Yeah. Um
[03:35:58] >> Yeah. Um as in sorry the where was that shared?
[03:36:02] as in sorry the where was that shared? >> Yeah, I'll have to dig it up.
[03:36:04] >> Yeah, I'll have to dig it up. Ah, sure. Um,
[03:36:08] Ah, sure. Um, I can do that.
[03:36:09] I can do that. >> Maybe we're talking about two different
[03:36:11] >> Maybe we're talking about two different things. I acknowledge, as I did to you
[03:36:13] things. I acknowledge, as I did to you already, Mike, that um, Nathaniel was
[03:36:17] already, Mike, that um, Nathaniel was prepared to put up financial
[03:36:20] prepared to put up financial commitment to it. But what I'm pointing
[03:36:22] commitment to it. But what I'm pointing to is at the end of the day, that
[03:36:25] to is at the end of the day, that commitment was withdrawn by Ben on
[03:36:28] commitment was withdrawn by Ben on behalf of those that he was representing
[03:36:29] behalf of those that he was representing in the conversation. That's all that's
[03:36:31] in the conversation. That's all that's all I'm saying. I acknowledge that they
[03:36:33] all I'm saying. I acknowledge that they were prepared to do it, but at the end
[03:36:35] were prepared to do it, but at the end of the day,
[03:36:36] of the day, >> the implication that you give to Peter
[03:36:37] >> the implication that you give to Peter is that the investigation in some cases
[03:36:39] is that the investigation in some cases was inconclusive
[03:36:41] was inconclusive and that that everybody decided to pull
[03:36:43] and that that everybody decided to pull out. Now, when I look at the emails and
[03:36:45] out. Now, when I look at the emails and the discussions, it looks to me as
[03:36:47] the discussions, it looks to me as though the investigation was made as
[03:36:48] though the investigation was made as cumbersome and difficult and uh as
[03:36:51] cumbersome and difficult and uh as possible and that the people who were
[03:36:54] possible and that the people who were involved decided that this was not a
[03:36:55] involved decided that this was not a good faith investigation and that's when
[03:36:57] good faith investigation and that's when they said, "Forget it." um not some kind
[03:37:00] they said, "Forget it." um not some kind of inconclusive thing, but that you
[03:37:02] of inconclusive thing, but that you orchestrated an investigation that would
[03:37:04] orchestrated an investigation that would be cumbersome, financially costly, and
[03:37:08] be cumbersome, financially costly, and just without good faith, you know, like
[03:37:11] just without good faith, you know, like do the people who are going to have to
[03:37:12] do the people who are going to have to pay for this thing, did they get to pick
[03:37:14] pay for this thing, did they get to pick the investigators?
[03:37:16] the investigators? >> Yes.
[03:37:16] >> Yes. >> Did they did they have to commit to to
[03:37:18] >> Did they did they have to commit to to following your instructions no matter
[03:37:20] following your instructions no matter how the investigation went forward? Was
[03:37:22] how the investigation went forward? Was there a commitment on their part where
[03:37:23] there a commitment on their part where they had to follow no matter what? In
[03:37:26] they had to follow no matter what? In the email that I sent to you, Mike, I
[03:37:28] the email that I sent to you, Mike, I indicated that Nathaniel was welcome to
[03:37:30] indicated that Nathaniel was welcome to become a part of the conversation with
[03:37:32] become a part of the conversation with the investigators.
[03:37:33] the investigators. >> Under what conditions? That he flies all
[03:37:36] >> Under what conditions? That he flies all the way to where you guys are.
[03:37:39] the way to where you guys are. >> Flies all the way a couple of hours.
[03:37:41] >> Flies all the way a couple of hours. That's where the investig That's where
[03:37:43] That's where the investig That's where the investigator was going to be.
[03:37:47] the investigator was going to be. >> Yeah. He can just have a Zoom call. The
[03:37:49] >> Yeah. He can just have a Zoom call. The guy can just get on a phone. I've been
[03:37:51] guy can just get on a phone. I've been part of investigations. Usually, you
[03:37:52] part of investigations. Usually, you just get on the phone with people. You
[03:37:53] just get on the phone with people. You don't need to be in their presence. and
[03:37:55] don't need to be in their presence. and submitting their own electric stuff.
[03:37:57] submitting their own electric stuff. Like that's weird and unnecessary. Um,
[03:38:00] Like that's weird and unnecessary. Um, and reportedly Gary had already replaced
[03:38:03] and reportedly Gary had already replaced his electronic devices by then. So then
[03:38:05] his electronic devices by then. So then it becomes this odd thing where we're
[03:38:06] it becomes this odd thing where we're like, we're examining devices that we
[03:38:08] like, we're examining devices that we think aren't going to have anything.
[03:38:09] think aren't going to have anything. We're giving up devices of ourselves,
[03:38:10] We're giving up devices of ourselves, which would only be used to incriminate
[03:38:12] which would only be used to incriminate us for reasons that are unrelated to
[03:38:13] us for reasons that are unrelated to anything about the situation. We're
[03:38:15] anything about the situation. We're being asked to pay for it. They're being
[03:38:17] being asked to pay for it. They're being told, let's see, they're being asked,
[03:38:19] told, let's see, they're being asked, um,
[03:38:21] um, if Gary's to be found guilty, all
[03:38:23] if Gary's to be found guilty, all parties who have accused him will
[03:38:24] parties who have accused him will support a process of redemption that I
[03:38:26] support a process of redemption that I will lead.
[03:38:28] will lead. What?
[03:38:31] What? So, to to get investigated, they have to
[03:38:32] So, to to get investigated, they have to agree to be under your control after the
[03:38:34] agree to be under your control after the investigation's over, even if he's
[03:38:36] investigation's over, even if he's guilty.
[03:38:38] guilty. >> That's not what I meant by the words
[03:38:40] >> That's not what I meant by the words that you're reading out.
[03:38:42] that you're reading out. >> They're supposed to pay $600 an hour for
[03:38:44] >> They're supposed to pay $600 an hour for the investigator.
[03:38:46] the investigator. $600 an hour and you're adding extra
[03:38:48] $600 an hour and you're adding extra stuff he has to investigate which adds
[03:38:49] stuff he has to investigate which adds many more hours to the investigation and
[03:38:50] many more hours to the investigation and much more of a financial burden on them.
[03:38:53] much more of a financial burden on them. >> We were putting up $20,000 in the
[03:38:56] >> We were putting up $20,000 in the process. We weren't asking them to carry
[03:38:57] process. We weren't asking them to carry the whole financial burden.
[03:39:00] the whole financial burden. >> Can I just ask where um like who you
[03:39:04] >> Can I just ask where um like who you spoke to about you you and Graeme Cook
[03:39:06] spoke to about you you and Graeme Cook was it were going to put up 20,000.
[03:39:09] was it were going to put up 20,000. >> Correct.
[03:39:10] >> Correct. >> And who did you tell that to? Ben,
[03:39:15] >> And who did you tell that to? Ben, >> how did you communicate that to Ben
[03:39:17] >> how did you communicate that to Ben >> verbally? Because it was a relational
[03:39:19] >> verbally? Because it was a relational conversation
[03:39:20] conversation >> on the phone. You said, "Yeah, because
[03:39:22] >> on the phone. You said, "Yeah, because it doesn't look like that in the uh the
[03:39:24] it doesn't look like that in the uh the email threads. It looked like you would
[03:39:27] email threads. It looked like you would make them pay for the the whole thing."
[03:39:30] make them pay for the the whole thing." >> Oh, well, I'm sorry that that's the
[03:39:32] >> Oh, well, I'm sorry that that's the impression that's given, but that was
[03:39:33] impression that's given, but that was never the conversation.
[03:39:35] never the conversation. >> Yeah. Did you did you hear about that
[03:39:37] >> Yeah. Did you did you hear about that Nathaniel at the time or or Dan that
[03:39:39] Nathaniel at the time or or Dan that these guys were going to put 20,000 him
[03:39:41] these guys were going to put 20,000 him and Graeme Cook?
[03:39:43] and Graeme Cook? >> No, it was never mentioned to us and um
[03:39:46] >> No, it was never mentioned to us and um Dan is I think written in the chat.
[03:39:50] Dan is I think written in the chat. >> No.
[03:39:51] >> No. >> Yeah, he's Daniel says no.
[03:39:55] >> Yeah, he's Daniel says no. >> So, Peter,
[03:39:57] >> So, Peter, um the integrity of of your honesty in
[03:40:00] um the integrity of of your honesty in this situation is very much in question.
[03:40:10] Is there a question there?
[03:40:14] Is there a question there? >> No,
[03:40:16] >> No, we've shared the evidence. There's
[03:40:17] we've shared the evidence. There's multiple things that you're sharing that
[03:40:18] multiple things that you're sharing that you you seem to have different truths
[03:40:20] you you seem to have different truths for different audiences.
[03:40:25] >> Um,
[03:40:26] >> Um, if that's how you see it, then that's
[03:40:28] if that's how you see it, then that's how you see it. I can only talk to you
[03:40:30] how you see it. I can only talk to you about my experience in the process and
[03:40:34] about my experience in the process and what I know my heart was and the
[03:40:36] what I know my heart was and the conversations I had with multiple
[03:40:37] conversations I had with multiple people.
[03:40:38] people. >> Peter, we can do more than that though
[03:40:39] >> Peter, we can do more than that though because I I explicitly asked you. I even
[03:40:41] because I I explicitly asked you. I even read you from your email. I said, "Have
[03:40:43] read you from your email. I said, "Have you you would never say the following,
[03:40:44] you you would never say the following, right? The accusations were debunked and
[03:40:46] right? The accusations were debunked and proven to have no substance." And you
[03:40:48] proven to have no substance." And you said, "No, I would never say that. I've
[03:40:49] said, "No, I would never say that. I've never believed that." And then
[03:40:51] never believed that." And then afterwards, you said, "Okay, I guess I
[03:40:53] afterwards, you said, "Okay, I guess I said that." And and there's you don't
[03:40:55] said that." And and there's you don't even have an explanation for this. When
[03:40:57] even have an explanation for this. When you say the accusations were debunked,
[03:40:59] you say the accusations were debunked, right? You're saying something about
[03:41:01] right? You're saying something about Nathaniel and Haley and Chris. You're
[03:41:03] Nathaniel and Haley and Chris. You're saying something about Ben and something
[03:41:05] saying something about Ben and something about Daniel. You're saying something
[03:41:06] about Daniel. You're saying something about all of these people and you're
[03:41:08] about all of these people and you're saying this to someone who privately
[03:41:10] saying this to someone who privately reached out to you guys saying, "I
[03:41:11] reached out to you guys saying, "I believe in Gary. I just I'm nervous
[03:41:13] believe in Gary. I just I'm nervous because of all the exposures that are
[03:41:15] because of all the exposures that are happening. I just just tell me that this
[03:41:17] happening. I just just tell me that this guy's legit. I just She wanted to just
[03:41:19] guy's legit. I just She wanted to just trust you guys." That's it. And then she
[03:41:22] trust you guys." That's it. And then she gets this and her radar goes up higher
[03:41:24] gets this and her radar goes up higher and higher because you guys were very
[03:41:26] and higher because you guys were very evasive and weird in the email. It was
[03:41:28] evasive and weird in the email. It was very strange. The whole thread is weird.
[03:41:30] very strange. The whole thread is weird. But but this this is you in our meeting
[03:41:33] But but this this is you in our meeting showing me that you're duplicitous in
[03:41:35] showing me that you're duplicitous in your statements about Gary Morgan
[03:41:36] your statements about Gary Morgan depending on your audience.
[03:41:38] depending on your audience. That's that's a fact of reality. That's
[03:41:40] That's that's a fact of reality. That's not something you can dispute. I have no
[03:41:42] not something you can dispute. I have no question for you. That's you just you
[03:41:43] question for you. That's you just you did this right now. We're all here. I'm
[03:41:45] did this right now. We're all here. I'm not going to pretend we didn't see what
[03:41:46] not going to pretend we didn't see what we saw.
[03:41:48] we saw. So this makes it difficult to think that
[03:41:50] So this makes it difficult to think that you should be part of any investigation
[03:41:52] you should be part of any investigation into Gary.
[03:41:56] You should be investigated along with
[03:41:58] You should be investigated along with Gary.
[03:42:01] Gary. >> You're welcome to do that if you'd like
[03:42:02] >> You're welcome to do that if you'd like to.
[03:42:04] to. >> I'd rather not. I didn't want to have
[03:42:05] >> I'd rather not. I didn't want to have this meeting. You guys asked for it.
[03:42:08] this meeting. You guys asked for it. What I see here, guys, is a ton of
[03:42:11] What I see here, guys, is a ton of evidence. And I have not heard a good
[03:42:12] evidence. And I have not heard a good explanation for it, Gary, from you,
[03:42:14] explanation for it, Gary, from you, except for you telling me that you're a
[03:42:16] except for you telling me that you're a good guy. a ton of evidence and those
[03:42:19] good guy. a ton of evidence and those who were covering covering for you, I'll
[03:42:20] who were covering covering for you, I'll use the term being duplicitous, at least
[03:42:24] use the term being duplicitous, at least Peter, being duplicitous in his
[03:42:26] Peter, being duplicitous in his engagement and in his behavior, being
[03:42:28] engagement and in his behavior, being controlling, being um difficult in this
[03:42:31] controlling, being um difficult in this in this process to try to make it harder
[03:42:32] in this process to try to make it harder and harder until people just give up
[03:42:34] and harder until people just give up because they have no good faith belief
[03:42:35] because they have no good faith belief in it. you spoke as though Ben
[03:42:37] in it. you spoke as though Ben Fitzgerald was um on the fence or
[03:42:41] Fitzgerald was um on the fence or something else like this, but I talked
[03:42:42] something else like this, but I talked to him and he very much believes that
[03:42:44] to him and he very much believes that Gary is guilty and he just lost faith in
[03:42:46] Gary is guilty and he just lost faith in you guys as people who would do anything
[03:42:48] you guys as people who would do anything about it. That was the reality. It
[03:42:50] about it. That was the reality. It wasn't an inconclusive investigation.
[03:42:54] wasn't an inconclusive investigation. That was never what it was. It was a ton
[03:42:56] That was never what it was. It was a ton of evidence, no good explanations
[03:42:57] of evidence, no good explanations alternately, and you writing presumed
[03:43:00] alternately, and you writing presumed innocent, presumed innocent, presumed
[03:43:01] innocent, presumed innocent, presumed innocent
[03:43:03] innocent until everybody just says, "Forget it."
[03:43:04] until everybody just says, "Forget it." And then poor Nathaniel is is forced to
[03:43:07] And then poor Nathaniel is is forced to apologize. Apologize,
[03:43:09] apologize. Apologize, Gary. Please tell me, how am I wrong?
[03:43:13] Gary. Please tell me, how am I wrong? Look at this is this is a very
[03:43:15] Look at this is this is a very significant amount of evidence.
[03:43:18] significant amount of evidence. >> Mike, I agree to the objective observer.
[03:43:21] >> Mike, I agree to the objective observer. It looks exactly like that. And I
[03:43:23] It looks exactly like that. And I haven't denied I called that uh the fake
[03:43:26] haven't denied I called that uh the fake Facebook page, but it's it's what I saw.
[03:43:30] Facebook page, but it's it's what I saw. It's what I received. It's what I
[03:43:32] It's what I received. It's what I shared. And I can't give any other
[03:43:36] shared. And I can't give any other explanation for that. But I did not data
[03:43:39] explanation for that. But I did not data mine and I did not look up Facebook. I'
[03:43:42] mine and I did not look up Facebook. I' I've never done that.
[03:43:46] I've never done that. >> You've never done it. And at the same
[03:43:48] >> You've never done it. And at the same time, um the email come, you know, Haley
[03:43:52] time, um the email come, you know, Haley makes this Facebook page. It's wild,
[03:43:54] makes this Facebook page. It's wild, Gary. It's like the Lord wanted you to
[03:43:56] Gary. It's like the Lord wanted you to get caught. She makes this Facebook
[03:43:58] get caught. She makes this Facebook page, does a little comment on a
[03:44:00] page, does a little comment on a Facebook post. You call out the name and
[03:44:02] Facebook post. You call out the name and the birth date. Then an email shows up
[03:44:04] the birth date. Then an email shows up and it's Lamberty, a a name that is very
[03:44:09] and it's Lamberty, a a name that is very rare, but is but is in inside your
[03:44:11] rare, but is but is in inside your circle, your area. There's someone with
[03:44:12] circle, your area. There's someone with that last name. And then the person is
[03:44:15] that last name. And then the person is pressed like, hey, you know, they want
[03:44:16] pressed like, hey, you know, they want to find out more about this person who
[03:44:17] to find out more about this person who emailed and their email gets deleted.
[03:44:19] emailed and their email gets deleted. The Google account's gone.
[03:44:21] The Google account's gone. >> Well, my I was at I was at dinner when
[03:44:24] >> Well, my I was at I was at dinner when that email was sent. I was sat there
[03:44:25] that email was sent. I was sat there with Katherine Tom and with
[03:44:28] with Katherine Tom and with >> Tre. That's absolutely fine, Gary. All
[03:44:30] >> Tre. That's absolutely fine, Gary. All that is fine. I'm asking you to respond
[03:44:32] that is fine. I'm asking you to respond to the evidence I just shared.
[03:44:34] to the evidence I just shared. >> But to set up an email and to send an
[03:44:37] >> But to set up an email and to send an email while you're at dinner,
[03:44:40] email while you're at dinner, I just I just don't. And that's one of
[03:44:42] I just I just don't. And that's one of the things I said to Pete. I said
[03:44:44] the things I said to Pete. I said there's nefarious things going on here
[03:44:46] there's nefarious things going on here that that need to be investigated.
[03:44:49] that that need to be investigated. >> Sure. I I can look into this. It won't
[03:44:50] >> Sure. I I can look into this. It won't be hard to find out. In 2016, was it
[03:44:52] be hard to find out. In 2016, was it possible to send an email without
[03:44:54] possible to send an email without sitting at your computer? Sure, I can
[03:44:56] sitting at your computer? Sure, I can look that up
[03:44:59] look that up >> without it was it was I was there at 8
[03:45:03] >> without it was it was I was there at 8 for dinner. Katherine and Tom were
[03:45:05] for dinner. Katherine and Tom were there. Trevor and Mered were there and
[03:45:06] there. Trevor and Mered were there and they seem all appeared.
[03:45:08] they seem all appeared. >> And you maintain it was not it was not
[03:45:09] >> And you maintain it was not it was not possible to do that in 2016.
[03:45:13] possible to do that in 2016. >> It's I say I did not send that. I was at
[03:45:15] >> It's I say I did not send that. I was at dinner that night.
[03:45:17] dinner that night. >> Was Sarah at that dinner as well?
[03:45:21] >> Was Sarah at that dinner as well? >> Is it me?
[03:45:22] >> Is it me? >> Yeah. No, I was at high pregnant on good
[03:45:26] >> Yeah. No, I was at high pregnant on good rest.
[03:45:27] rest. >> Okay.
[03:45:29] >> Okay. >> Okay. So, the defense is not that strong
[03:45:32] >> Okay. So, the defense is not that strong if it was
[03:45:35] if it was >> No, I'm sorry, Gary. Go ahead, please.
[03:45:37] >> No, I'm sorry, Gary. Go ahead, please. >> I was just, you know, again, there was
[03:45:40] >> I was just, you know, again, there was been accusations that, you know, I was
[03:45:42] been accusations that, you know, I was there was someone else helping me and
[03:45:44] there was someone else helping me and stuff like that. And that's one of the
[03:45:46] stuff like that. And that's one of the reasons in chatting with Pete is is that
[03:45:50] reasons in chatting with Pete is is that we have to get these devices. um not
[03:45:53] we have to get these devices. um not just myself. I I was open. I said, "Pe,
[03:45:56] just myself. I I was open. I said, "Pe, there's my device." And I just want to
[03:45:59] there's my device." And I just want to clarify, I hadn't changed devices. There
[03:46:01] clarify, I hadn't changed devices. There was no devices that had been changed.
[03:46:03] was no devices that had been changed. And so, I'd offered my devices. I
[03:46:05] And so, I'd offered my devices. I offered Sarah's devices. And every time
[03:46:09] offered Sarah's devices. And every time there's been questions, every time
[03:46:11] there's been questions, every time there's been things talked about either
[03:46:13] there's been things talked about either by Ben or Dan or others, I haven't shied
[03:46:17] by Ben or Dan or others, I haven't shied away. I haven't deflected. I haven't um
[03:46:21] away. I haven't deflected. I haven't um tried to defend my position. I've shown
[03:46:24] tried to defend my position. I've shown up to everything that I've been asked to
[03:46:26] up to everything that I've been asked to show up to and including when Pete came
[03:46:29] show up to and including when Pete came to me and said, "Gary, you need to
[03:46:30] to me and said, "Gary, you need to submit your devices." I said, "I'm happy
[03:46:32] submit your devices." I said, "I'm happy to submit my devices. There's there's
[03:46:35] to submit my devices. There's there's nothing that I have to defend you." And
[03:46:38] nothing that I have to defend you." And so, but at 8:50 when that email was
[03:46:41] so, but at 8:50 when that email was sent, I was having dinner at Trevor and
[03:46:43] sent, I was having dinner at Trevor and Mary and also as well Katherine and Tom
[03:46:45] Mary and also as well Katherine and Tom were there.
[03:46:46] were there. >> Mhm. Do you guys think that the Well,
[03:46:49] >> Mhm. Do you guys think that the Well, first let me ask Nathaniel. He's
[03:46:50] first let me ask Nathaniel. He's suggesting that he did not Was that
[03:46:52] suggesting that he did not Was that something I misunderstood? Did he have a
[03:46:55] something I misunderstood? Did he have a new new device or not?
[03:46:58] new new device or not? >> There was a social media um photo from
[03:47:02] >> There was a social media um photo from Gary like a few weeks after like the
[03:47:06] Gary like a few weeks after like the original thing happened where he was at
[03:47:08] original thing happened where he was at the Apple store buying new devices.
[03:47:12] the Apple store buying new devices. That was what we saw.
[03:47:13] That was what we saw. >> Yeah. I I think that's pro Ben would
[03:47:16] >> Yeah. I I think that's pro Ben would have um would be the person I imagine to
[03:47:18] have um would be the person I imagine to talk to about that. Um I guess if I
[03:47:21] talk to about that. Um I guess if I could just add one thing. Um
[03:47:25] the main thing for us here and we we I
[03:47:28] the main thing for us here and we we I guess we were going to share how it
[03:47:29] guess we were going to share how it happened but this it like we're happy to
[03:47:32] happened but this it like we're happy to just move with whatever
[03:47:34] just move with whatever way the meeting needs to go Mike but um
[03:47:37] way the meeting needs to go Mike but um for us
[03:47:38] for us there was a a fake Facebook page made uh
[03:47:42] there was a a fake Facebook page made uh that was called out and Chris was
[03:47:46] that was called out and Chris was referring back to a meeting we had some
[03:47:49] referring back to a meeting we had some time ago and for us that was clear that
[03:47:54] time ago and for us that was clear that that would be what we would need to see
[03:47:55] that would be what we would need to see to know that something like this was
[03:47:58] to know that something like this was happening. I guess
[03:48:00] happening. I guess that that's that uh history doesn't make
[03:48:04] that that's that uh history doesn't make things go away and I guess for us that
[03:48:07] things go away and I guess for us that still especially with the email whether
[03:48:10] still especially with the email whether we've got three reasons we do believe
[03:48:11] we've got three reasons we do believe the email almost certainly is my wording
[03:48:14] the email almost certainly is my wording it is connected to Gary but irrespective
[03:48:18] it is connected to Gary but irrespective of that an email was made a fake email
[03:48:21] of that an email was made a fake email by my wife I'm not sure if she wants to
[03:48:23] by my wife I'm not sure if she wants to share anything more about that we don't
[03:48:24] share anything more about that we don't need to but um if you'd like us to
[03:48:27] need to but um if you'd like us to totally your call but that to me is I
[03:48:29] totally your call but that to me is I don't know how to explain that.
[03:48:31] don't know how to explain that. >> Yeah, I don't think that I think you're
[03:48:33] >> Yeah, I don't think that I think you're right in that uh identifying whether
[03:48:35] right in that uh identifying whether this email is associated with Gary is
[03:48:37] this email is associated with Gary is more evidence. It's not it's not it's
[03:48:39] more evidence. It's not it's not it's not the lynch pin, but what if you
[03:48:41] not the lynch pin, but what if you wouldn't mind share the three reasons
[03:48:43] wouldn't mind share the three reasons that you think it was associated with
[03:48:45] that you think it was associated with him?
[03:48:47] him? >> Yeah, sure.
[03:48:53] So, reason one, when um Ben and Joel,
[03:48:58] So, reason one, when um Ben and Joel, not myself, started to um when Ben was
[03:49:01] not myself, started to um when Ben was concerned about this, Haley had made the
[03:49:04] concerned about this, Haley had made the Facebook page, but when Ben was
[03:49:05] Facebook page, but when Ben was concerned, he said that the email will
[03:49:09] concerned, he said that the email will either show that she's innocent, uh
[03:49:12] either show that she's innocent, uh sorry, that Gary's innocent, or um if a
[03:49:14] sorry, that Gary's innocent, or um if a real Serbity comes forward, it was as
[03:49:16] real Serbity comes forward, it was as simple as that with a birth date. um
[03:49:18] simple as that with a birth date. um then real person exists. So that was the
[03:49:21] then real person exists. So that was the main thing he wanted to do with Joel. Uh
[03:49:23] main thing he wanted to do with Joel. Uh so the three reasons, one uh Sarah
[03:49:26] so the three reasons, one uh Sarah Lamperty, the so-called Sarah Lampy
[03:49:28] Lamperty, the so-called Sarah Lampy consistently lied about their location.
[03:49:30] consistently lied about their location. Um they said that they were um in on a
[03:49:34] Um they said that they were um in on a missions trip
[03:49:35] missions trip >> in Cambodia with the Red Cross
[03:49:37] >> in Cambodia with the Red Cross >> when they were actually in Australia
[03:49:40] >> when they were actually in Australia um and consistently lied about that.
[03:49:44] um and consistently lied about that. Reason two, Lamberti is an
[03:49:46] Reason two, Lamberti is an extraordinarily rare surname. Um, we
[03:49:50] extraordinarily rare surname. Um, we know this because at the time that Ben
[03:49:52] know this because at the time that Ben was concerned, we uh looked into the
[03:49:55] was concerned, we uh looked into the name Sarah Lambert and had a private
[03:49:56] name Sarah Lambert and had a private investigator, which this has been made
[03:49:58] investigator, which this has been made known to everyone. This is not new
[03:49:59] known to everyone. This is not new information. So, the the private
[03:50:01] information. So, the the private investigator said very clearly, forensic
[03:50:03] investigator said very clearly, forensic investigator, there does not seem to be
[03:50:05] investigator, there does not seem to be a Sarah Lampertity on the record in
[03:50:07] a Sarah Lampertity on the record in Australia. So, the person reason two,
[03:50:08] Australia. So, the person reason two, the person doesn't seem to exist. Not
[03:50:11] the person doesn't seem to exist. Not only that, the person is not on the
[03:50:14] only that, the person is not on the record of going to um this missions trip
[03:50:17] record of going to um this missions trip with the Red Cross. That's something you
[03:50:18] with the Red Cross. That's something you can look at. They said, "I'm I have gone
[03:50:21] can look at. They said, "I'm I have gone to Cambodia." Keep in mind, this person
[03:50:24] to Cambodia." Keep in mind, this person supposedly emailed Gary and emailed
[03:50:26] supposedly emailed Gary and emailed Glory City Church, so excited about this
[03:50:28] Glory City Church, so excited about this word a few weeks later, not willing to
[03:50:30] word a few weeks later, not willing to talk about it. They said they're going
[03:50:31] talk about it. They said they're going on a missions trip for 6 months. And um
[03:50:35] on a missions trip for 6 months. And um we looked up with the Red Cross if had
[03:50:38] we looked up with the Red Cross if had gone to Cambodia. They did not. So,
[03:50:41] gone to Cambodia. They did not. So, reason two, it doesn't seem that a
[03:50:43] reason two, it doesn't seem that a servant exists. And just to make things
[03:50:46] servant exists. And just to make things worse, Ben brought this to my attention.
[03:50:48] worse, Ben brought this to my attention. There seemed to be um that Lambert was a
[03:50:51] There seemed to be um that Lambert was a very rare name. And he realized, oh,
[03:50:54] very rare name. And he realized, oh, interesting. I know someone with the
[03:50:56] interesting. I know someone with the surname Lamberty. I'll ask them if they
[03:50:58] surname Lamberty. I'll ask them if they know uh Asera. This person's name, I
[03:51:01] know uh Asera. This person's name, I believe Ben could tell us who it is, but
[03:51:03] believe Ben could tell us who it is, but they had the surname Lamb was the only
[03:51:05] they had the surname Lamb was the only person he knew. He asked if they knew of
[03:51:07] person he knew. He asked if they knew of Asera. They did not.
[03:51:09] Asera. They did not. Then Ben found out this person is in
[03:51:11] Then Ben found out this person is in Gary's prophetic school. So we believe
[03:51:14] Gary's prophetic school. So we believe that's a very odd coincidence since the
[03:51:16] that's a very odd coincidence since the name Lamberty is one in 1.9
[03:51:21] name Lamberty is one in 1.9 million chance of having that name. It's
[03:51:22] million chance of having that name. It's roughly about 20 potentially in
[03:51:24] roughly about 20 potentially in Australia with that surname. When Haley
[03:51:27] Australia with that surname. When Haley made the Facebook page,
[03:51:30] made the Facebook page, >> when I when I created uh this Sarah on
[03:51:33] >> when I when I created uh this Sarah on Facebook, I made the name the last name
[03:51:36] Facebook, I made the name the last name Wildman just thinking of a last name of
[03:51:40] Wildman just thinking of a last name of people that went to my parents' church.
[03:51:43] people that went to my parents' church. >> So,
[03:51:43] >> So, >> their friends,
[03:51:44] >> their friends, >> sorry,
[03:51:44] >> sorry, >> that was how I came up with it.
[03:51:46] >> that was how I came up with it. >> So, if you're in a rush, one could
[03:51:48] >> So, if you're in a rush, one could likely conclude that you would use a
[03:51:50] likely conclude that you would use a name you're familiar with. Again, not
[03:51:52] name you're familiar with. Again, not necessarily a smoking gun. But the third
[03:51:54] necessarily a smoking gun. But the third reason was that other reason we
[03:51:55] reason was that other reason we mentioned that it strongly appeared
[03:51:57] mentioned that it strongly appeared based on Ben, not myself, and what he
[03:51:59] based on Ben, not myself, and what he did with a a Google expert after he put
[03:52:03] did with a a Google expert after he put a post out and said, "Can someone help
[03:52:04] a post out and said, "Can someone help me with this?" The Sarah email got
[03:52:08] me with this?" The Sarah email got deleted at exactly that same time. It
[03:52:10] deleted at exactly that same time. It said 0 days ago this email was deleted.
[03:52:13] said 0 days ago this email was deleted. The recovery email there, you could put
[03:52:15] The recovery email there, you could put multiple emails in of which he rejected.
[03:52:18] multiple emails in of which he rejected. Um, Ben did this um asked me to have a
[03:52:21] Um, Ben did this um asked me to have a quick look. I did the same thing with
[03:52:23] quick look. I did the same thing with the help of this Google expert. The only
[03:52:25] the help of this Google expert. The only email that worked was Gary's. The only
[03:52:28] email that worked was Gary's. The only reason I have said that that is not
[03:52:29] reason I have said that that is not unequivocal is cuz to do that would be
[03:52:31] unequivocal is cuz to do that would be illegal. I've never said that that in
[03:52:33] illegal. I've never said that that in and of itself is a smoking gun. But I
[03:52:35] and of itself is a smoking gun. But I sure believe that those three points are
[03:52:37] sure believe that those three points are enough to cast extraordinary doubt on
[03:52:40] enough to cast extraordinary doubt on the existence of a serity and therefore
[03:52:42] the existence of a serity and therefore we're back to a fake Facebook page has
[03:52:45] we're back to a fake Facebook page has been called out. The name and for us we
[03:52:47] been called out. The name and for us we can't look past that. that it to us that
[03:52:50] can't look past that. that it to us that may not be able to be explained by you
[03:52:52] may not be able to be explained by you guys but for us that is all we decided
[03:52:55] guys but for us that is all we decided we would need to see to know that this
[03:52:57] we would need to see to know that this was happening. Haley put that out as
[03:53:00] was happening. Haley put that out as >> like as a fleece for God
[03:53:03] >> like as a fleece for God and just made it and decided to trust
[03:53:05] and just made it and decided to trust God to reveal whether it was happening
[03:53:08] God to reveal whether it was happening >> and I was happy
[03:53:10] >> and I was happy >> and I was happy to move on. Um when when
[03:53:12] >> and I was happy to move on. Um when when we
[03:53:13] we >> Yes, please go.
[03:53:14] >> Yes, please go. >> Add just one more oddity about that uh
[03:53:16] >> Add just one more oddity about that uh that time and this email uh being
[03:53:19] that time and this email uh being deleted at the same time uh you got
[03:53:23] deleted at the same time uh you got hacked was it Gary and you lost
[03:53:25] hacked was it Gary and you lost everything.
[03:53:26] everything. Yeah, my and I'm going to screenshot it
[03:53:28] Yeah, my and I'm going to screenshot it on the 18th of at 3 something in the
[03:53:32] on the 18th of at 3 something in the morning, my Gmail was compromised and
[03:53:35] morning, my Gmail was compromised and and accessed and I've got out
[03:53:39] and accessed and I've got out screenshots of that. So, it was on the
[03:53:42] screenshots of that. So, it was on the 19th like um Nathaniel just said that
[03:53:45] 19th like um Nathaniel just said that everything then got deleted and so um
[03:53:49] everything then got deleted and so um yeah, my my stuff was accessed and
[03:53:51] yeah, my my stuff was accessed and hacked. And that's again a reason I said
[03:53:53] hacked. And that's again a reason I said to Pete, we we need to get these devices
[03:53:56] to Pete, we we need to get these devices uh forensically looked at because
[03:53:59] uh forensically looked at because there's nefarious things going on and
[03:54:01] there's nefarious things going on and everything is trying to be set up
[03:54:04] everything is trying to be set up against me in this. And and also as
[03:54:07] against me in this. And and also as well, it's it's no um it's no secret
[03:54:12] well, it's it's no um it's no secret that hacking was being used by um those
[03:54:17] that hacking was being used by um those involved.
[03:54:18] involved. >> Wait, wait, wait. Let's slow down. Are
[03:54:20] >> Wait, wait, wait. Let's slow down. Are you suggesting that somebody set you up?
[03:54:25] >> That's what I was trying to find like
[03:54:27] >> That's what I was trying to find like >> Yeah, but what do you what do you think
[03:54:28] >> Yeah, but what do you what do you think happened? You think you said nefarious
[03:54:31] happened? You think you said nefarious stuff and you think that someone set up
[03:54:34] stuff and you think that someone set up the Sarah Lamberty email
[03:54:37] the Sarah Lamberty email uh in and connected it to you after
[03:54:39] uh in and connected it to you after hacking your account in order to make it
[03:54:41] hacking your account in order to make it look like you were guilty?
[03:54:43] look like you were guilty? >> Is that a hypothesis?
[03:54:45] >> Is that a hypothesis? >> Absolutely. Because again, being at
[03:54:47] >> Absolutely. Because again, being at dinner when this thing was happened,
[03:54:49] dinner when this thing was happened, it's I have no explanation on how
[03:54:53] it's I have no explanation on how >> that email could be sent for me if I was
[03:54:56] >> that email could be sent for me if I was at dinner.
[03:54:57] at dinner. >> But let me let me lean on this a little
[03:54:58] >> But let me let me lean on this a little bit if we can. If you're your your
[03:55:00] bit if we can. If you're your your theory is there's a there's a
[03:55:01] theory is there's a there's a possibility that somebody set up the
[03:55:03] possibility that somebody set up the Sarah Lamberty email uh as part of an
[03:55:06] Sarah Lamberty email uh as part of an attempt to make it look like you were
[03:55:09] attempt to make it look like you were trying to cover your tracks on
[03:55:10] trying to cover your tracks on something.
[03:55:12] something. >> Yeah.
[03:55:13] >> Yeah. >> Okay. So then that would also imply that
[03:55:17] >> Okay. So then that would also imply that you think that there there is an actual
[03:55:19] you think that there there is an actual connection
[03:55:20] connection that the Sarah Lambert email is is a
[03:55:22] that the Sarah Lambert email is is a fake person who's pretending to defend
[03:55:24] fake person who's pretending to defend you initially. That that was the initial
[03:55:26] you initially. That that was the initial thing is Sarah Lambert's defending you
[03:55:28] thing is Sarah Lambert's defending you and that then the person who set this up
[03:55:30] and that then the person who set this up was counting on them doing all this work
[03:55:33] was counting on them doing all this work talking to an investigator just to find
[03:55:35] talking to an investigator just to find out that the email was somehow connected
[03:55:37] out that the email was somehow connected with you that this was all part because
[03:55:39] with you that this was all part because the only people that could be in on this
[03:55:40] the only people that could be in on this would be the ones on this call. You're
[03:55:42] would be the ones on this call. You're saying that they
[03:55:43] saying that they >> right?
[03:55:44] >> right? >> Like play it out. What does this look
[03:55:46] >> Like play it out. What does this look like? It sounds like you're saying
[03:55:47] like? It sounds like you're saying either I'm guilty or I was set up. And I
[03:55:50] either I'm guilty or I was set up. And I think that one of those is a much
[03:55:51] think that one of those is a much simpler explanation.
[03:55:56] >> Sorry, you might drop there. I didn't
[03:55:58] >> Sorry, you might drop there. I didn't hear the last part you said.
[03:55:59] hear the last part you said. >> Sorry. But if they if they were if
[03:56:02] >> Sorry. But if they if they were if someone was setting you up
[03:56:05] someone was setting you up at this stage in the game, who's doing
[03:56:08] at this stage in the game, who's doing it? Nobody's gunning for you yet.
[03:56:10] it? Nobody's gunning for you yet. They're just like hoping it's not true.
[03:56:15] >> Gary, come on. Dude, you're such a liar,
[03:56:17] >> Gary, come on. Dude, you're such a liar, man. It's so ridiculous. It is. It is
[03:56:21] man. It's so ridiculous. It is. It is atrocious.
[03:56:23] atrocious. I don't know how you guys can't
[03:56:26] I don't know how you guys can't Peter Allen.
[03:56:28] Peter Allen. You You should be so embarrassed.
[03:56:32] You You should be so embarrassed. when when you had a chance to out this
[03:56:33] when when you had a chance to out this guy as blaspheming the name of Christ as
[03:56:36] guy as blaspheming the name of Christ as abusing the people of God, you instead
[03:56:40] abusing the people of God, you instead caused serious harm to the Nathaniel,
[03:56:42] caused serious harm to the Nathaniel, please would you mind sharing just
[03:56:44] please would you mind sharing just briefly how this impacted you when you
[03:56:47] briefly how this impacted you when you guys tried to have real accountability,
[03:56:49] guys tried to have real accountability, how it hurt you guys?
[03:56:51] how it hurt you guys? >> Yeah, sure. Um,
[03:56:54] >> Yeah, sure. Um, yeah. Well, we uh were very shocked
[03:56:57] yeah. Well, we uh were very shocked obviously. Haley, do you want to share
[03:57:00] obviously. Haley, do you want to share just quickly what your reaction was when
[03:57:02] just quickly what your reaction was when this happened and then we can mention
[03:57:03] this happened and then we can mention it?
[03:57:05] it? >> Um,
[03:57:07] >> Um, when he first called it out.
[03:57:10] when he first called it out. >> Uh, when it first happened, I just felt
[03:57:13] >> Uh, when it first happened, I just felt really in shock. like I just was numb
[03:57:17] really in shock. like I just was numb and just shocked and more the aftermath
[03:57:22] and just shocked and more the aftermath um
[03:57:23] um where
[03:57:25] where our pastors
[03:57:28] our pastors initially
[03:57:29] initially like didn't believe like they believed
[03:57:32] like didn't believe like they believed that Gary was legitimately
[03:57:35] that Gary was legitimately hearing from God and that we'd done the
[03:57:37] hearing from God and that we'd done the wrong thing and that we
[03:57:40] wrong thing and that we were wrong to set a trap so to speak and
[03:57:44] were wrong to set a trap so to speak and >> which came from from Gary. Our pastors
[03:57:46] >> which came from from Gary. Our pastors did believe us logically. Tom looked at
[03:57:49] did believe us logically. Tom looked at the details originally like anyone would
[03:57:52] the details originally like anyone would when they looked and said and saw like
[03:57:54] when they looked and said and saw like we called Katherine and Tom that night
[03:57:56] we called Katherine and Tom that night as it happened. There's nothing in it
[03:57:58] as it happened. There's nothing in it for us here. I'm a I'm a media guy. But
[03:58:01] for us here. I'm a I'm a media guy. But we were shocked and appalled by this. We
[03:58:03] we were shocked and appalled by this. We called Katherine. They were shocked and
[03:58:05] called Katherine. They were shocked and appalled by this. Um and thanked Haley
[03:58:07] appalled by this. Um and thanked Haley for creating this page. But Mike to I I
[03:58:10] for creating this page. But Mike to I I guess I'll come to what you're asking
[03:58:12] guess I'll come to what you're asking about because it's the next thing that
[03:58:14] about because it's the next thing that happened.
[03:58:15] happened. They believed us on the and um thanked
[03:58:19] They believed us on the and um thanked us for making this cuz Tom looked saw
[03:58:21] us for making this cuz Tom looked saw the fake Facebook page drew the
[03:58:22] the fake Facebook page drew the conclusion anyone reasonably would that
[03:58:25] conclusion anyone reasonably would that um that Gary had called out a fake
[03:58:28] um that Gary had called out a fake Facebook page made to uh catch him. The
[03:58:31] Facebook page made to uh catch him. The only one created. Um
[03:58:34] only one created. Um and we thought that was it. We thought
[03:58:35] and we thought that was it. We thought it was over. Um Tom and Catherine were
[03:58:39] it was over. Um Tom and Catherine were meeting with Gary. And as he's
[03:58:40] meeting with Gary. And as he's mentioned, he we didn't know about this,
[03:58:42] mentioned, he we didn't know about this, but he claimed complete innocence. We
[03:58:44] but he claimed complete innocence. We didn't hear anything for the whole
[03:58:45] didn't hear anything for the whole Saturday. When Sunday came along, we
[03:58:48] Saturday. When Sunday came along, we were asked to be in a meeting uh with
[03:58:50] were asked to be in a meeting uh with Gary before he was going to preach on
[03:58:53] Gary before he was going to preach on Sunday. We couldn't understand how he
[03:58:54] Sunday. We couldn't understand how he would still be preaching, but we thought
[03:58:56] would still be preaching, but we thought maybe they'd be repenting from the
[03:58:57] maybe they'd be repenting from the stage. We didn't know. So, we came along
[03:59:00] stage. We didn't know. So, we came along to this meeting with our six-month-old
[03:59:03] to this meeting with our six-month-old child and it became very clear that this
[03:59:06] child and it became very clear that this meeting was about us and um Gary
[03:59:09] meeting was about us and um Gary mentioned some things and you might
[03:59:11] mentioned some things and you might remember
[03:59:13] remember >> um and I remember Gary quoting the
[03:59:16] >> um and I remember Gary quoting the scripture from Proverbs, he who sets a
[03:59:19] scripture from Proverbs, he who sets a trap will fall in it. And in that he
[03:59:23] trap will fall in it. And in that he seemed to imply that there was something
[03:59:26] seemed to imply that there was something wrong in our hearts that was the reason
[03:59:28] wrong in our hearts that was the reason that we had made a fake Facebook person.
[03:59:32] that we had made a fake Facebook person. And I knew that that wasn't true. I knew
[03:59:35] And I knew that that wasn't true. I knew that my motivation in making it was a
[03:59:39] that my motivation in making it was a love for the prophetic and a love for
[03:59:40] love for the prophetic and a love for the people in our church. And that was
[03:59:43] the people in our church. And that was why I made the Facebook person to get to
[03:59:45] why I made the Facebook person to get to the bottom of it. But
[03:59:50] we were very much attacked in that
[03:59:53] we were very much attacked in that meeting and in the weeks following and
[03:59:57] meeting and in the weeks following and the motives of our hearts were like
[04:00:00] the motives of our hearts were like scrutinized on and
[04:00:04] scrutinized on and >> it was very confusing and we were
[04:00:08] >> it was very confusing and we were accused of being on a witch hunt and
[04:00:12] accused of being on a witch hunt and a lot of absurd things and it was very
[04:00:15] a lot of absurd things and it was very very difficult, very very traumatizing.
[04:00:17] very difficult, very very traumatizing. izing for
[04:00:19] izing for young people. We were in our mid20ies
[04:00:22] young people. We were in our mid20ies and we just found it very very difficult
[04:00:26] and we just found it very very difficult to be um so persecuted for what we
[04:00:29] to be um so persecuted for what we thought was doing the right thing.
[04:00:33] thought was doing the right thing. >> Yeah. And um
[04:00:35] >> Yeah. And um even as as things progressed, Tommy and
[04:00:38] even as as things progressed, Tommy and Catherine have since apologized to us
[04:00:41] Catherine have since apologized to us profusely and and do believe that Gary
[04:00:44] profusely and and do believe that Gary is guilty based on the evidence alone.
[04:00:46] is guilty based on the evidence alone. and have apologized for the way we were
[04:00:49] and have apologized for the way we were treated. Um,
[04:00:51] treated. Um, but even my very first phone call with
[04:00:54] but even my very first phone call with Peter McHugh,
[04:00:56] Peter McHugh, I was told at the very start of the
[04:00:58] I was told at the very start of the call, are you on speaker phone or are
[04:01:01] call, are you on speaker phone or are you recording?
[04:01:03] you recording? I mentioned I wasn't recording. It was
[04:01:05] I mentioned I wasn't recording. It was on the 12th of May 2016. I believe Peter
[04:01:09] on the 12th of May 2016. I believe Peter would be calling me to get to the bottom
[04:01:11] would be calling me to get to the bottom of the facts. That's what I was told. I
[04:01:13] of the facts. That's what I was told. I was hopeful and um at the beginning of
[04:01:16] was hopeful and um at the beginning of the call
[04:01:18] the call it was said very clearly am I on speaker
[04:01:20] it was said very clearly am I on speaker phone or am I being recorded and I said
[04:01:22] phone or am I being recorded and I said no um you're not being recorded but
[04:01:24] no um you're not being recorded but you're on speaker phone cuz my wife is
[04:01:26] you're on speaker phone cuz my wife is here. I was told immediately to take the
[04:01:29] here. I was told immediately to take the call off speakerphone,
[04:01:31] call off speakerphone, which meant Haley, the person who
[04:01:34] which meant Haley, the person who originally made the Facebook page,
[04:01:35] originally made the Facebook page, wasn't even able to be privileged to the
[04:01:37] wasn't even able to be privileged to the call. And I'm glad she wasn't because
[04:01:41] call. And I'm glad she wasn't because uh Peter went on to to accuse me very
[04:01:46] uh Peter went on to to accuse me very clearly of um being a gossip, creating a
[04:01:48] clearly of um being a gossip, creating a fake Facebook page. I remember his words
[04:01:50] fake Facebook page. I remember his words saying, "I'll do the talking, you do the
[04:01:52] saying, "I'll do the talking, you do the listening." I'd never been uh spoken to
[04:01:54] listening." I'd never been uh spoken to by a leader like this before. Um, I
[04:01:57] by a leader like this before. Um, I remember just trembling as someone in
[04:01:58] remember just trembling as someone in their 20s, like quite quite shocked by
[04:02:01] their 20s, like quite quite shocked by it. And um, I remember just blurting out
[04:02:04] it. And um, I remember just blurting out as the call felt like it was going to
[04:02:05] as the call felt like it was going to end, surely you would want the facts.
[04:02:08] end, surely you would want the facts. Can I just send you the facts? To which
[04:02:10] Can I just send you the facts? To which Peter said, I wouldn't even look at
[04:02:13] Peter said, I wouldn't even look at them. And I just might like
[04:02:18] them. And I just might like managed to to say, "Can I can I please
[04:02:21] managed to to say, "Can I can I please email you the facts so you can see the
[04:02:23] email you the facts so you can see the facts?" And again, he repeated, "I would
[04:02:25] facts?" And again, he repeated, "I would not even look at them." It was um a
[04:02:27] not even look at them." It was um a short call, but I remember it. And uh
[04:02:30] short call, but I remember it. And uh that was just a few of the things that
[04:02:32] that was just a few of the things that happened. Yes. A few days later, Ben and
[04:02:35] happened. Yes. A few days later, Ben and Dan were able to talk Peter into looking
[04:02:37] Dan were able to talk Peter into looking at the evidence and the very document
[04:02:39] at the evidence and the very document that you all have was created
[04:02:42] that you all have was created pretty much for Peter and Katherine so
[04:02:44] pretty much for Peter and Katherine so others could see just the clear facts of
[04:02:47] others could see just the clear facts of what had happened.
[04:02:52] Peter, do you acknowledge or deny that
[04:02:54] Peter, do you acknowledge or deny that you said that over the phone to
[04:02:55] you said that over the phone to Nathaniel?
[04:02:58] Nathaniel? >> Um, it was 10 years ago. So, I have no
[04:03:02] >> Um, it was 10 years ago. So, I have no recollection of the call. What I can
[04:03:05] recollection of the call. What I can appeal to is that that's not who I am
[04:03:09] appeal to is that that's not who I am and that's not how I conduct myself. Um,
[04:03:12] and that's not how I conduct myself. Um, and so I'm probably shocked as
[04:03:16] and so I'm probably shocked as Nathaniel's describing that uh that I
[04:03:20] Nathaniel's describing that uh that I would be accused of saying something
[04:03:21] would be accused of saying something like that. Um, but there's no way that
[04:03:24] like that. Um, but there's no way that either of us can prove that. So, I'm not
[04:03:26] either of us can prove that. So, I'm not denying it. I'm just saying it's not in
[04:03:28] denying it. I'm just saying it's not in keeping with who I know myself to be.
[04:03:31] keeping with who I know myself to be. Um, so yeah, beyond that, uh, I'm not
[04:03:36] Um, so yeah, beyond that, uh, I'm not quite sure what you want me to say.
[04:03:38] quite sure what you want me to say. Peter, you were part of a a Zoom call
[04:03:41] Peter, you were part of a a Zoom call that happened in February of 2026 on
[04:03:45] that happened in February of 2026 on February 11th.
[04:03:48] February 11th. In the in the Zoom call, do you remember
[04:03:50] In the in the Zoom call, do you remember um
[04:03:53] do you remember what you said about the
[04:03:57] do you remember what you said about the investigation?
[04:04:00] >> Okay, I have no idea what you're talking
[04:04:02] >> Okay, I have no idea what you're talking about.
[04:04:03] about. Zoom call with um
[04:04:07] Zoom call with um Leon Nicotra, Nikotra, Leo Nikotra, John
[04:04:10] Leon Nicotra, Nikotra, Leo Nikotra, John Manducas, Jade Lee, Josiah Nicotra, and
[04:04:14] Manducas, Jade Lee, Josiah Nicotra, and Cliff Cherry.
[04:04:17] >> I have the Zoom call. Yep.
[04:04:19] >> I have the Zoom call. Yep. >> Yeah. You told them, you were asked, did
[04:04:22] >> Yeah. You told them, you were asked, did they have a reason for refusing to
[04:04:23] they have a reason for refusing to submit their electronic devices if there
[04:04:26] submit their electronic devices if there was a reason? Actually, let me read to
[04:04:27] was a reason? Actually, let me read to you from the beginning. You said,
[04:04:28] you from the beginning. You said, "Graham and I were prepared to put up
[04:04:30] "Graham and I were prepared to put up $20,000 to do to do that when I made the
[04:04:33] $20,000 to do to do that when I made the offer talking about the investigation of
[04:04:35] offer talking about the investigation of the electronic devices." And at that
[04:04:37] the electronic devices." And at that point, you know, the other side
[04:04:39] point, you know, the other side withdrew. The other side said they
[04:04:41] withdrew. The other side said they didn't want to participate in that. From
[04:04:42] didn't want to participate in that. From our viewpoint, from our perspective, it
[04:04:44] our viewpoint, from our perspective, it left Gary hanging out to dry because
[04:04:45] left Gary hanging out to dry because they continue to make accusations, but
[04:04:47] they continue to make accusations, but they haven't been willing to do the hard
[04:04:49] they haven't been willing to do the hard work of actually proving what they're
[04:04:50] work of actually proving what they're saying is true. And so, from our point
[04:04:51] saying is true. And so, from our point of view, we think this is a closed case.
[04:04:54] of view, we think this is a closed case. So, you you you suggest that you guys
[04:04:56] So, you you you suggest that you guys were putting up a bunch of money, which
[04:04:57] were putting up a bunch of money, which everybody says you they did not hear
[04:04:59] everybody says you they did not hear from you. And Ben says he did not hear
[04:05:01] from you. And Ben says he did not hear 20K from you. And um you also said that
[04:05:05] 20K from you. And um you also said that they refused after you offering all this
[04:05:07] they refused after you offering all this money, they refused to offer their
[04:05:09] money, they refused to offer their devices, which is not true. That's a
[04:05:10] devices, which is not true. That's a lie. Then Leon followed up by asking
[04:05:13] lie. Then Leon followed up by asking you, did they have a reason for refusing
[04:05:14] you, did they have a reason for refusing to submit their electronic devices? If
[04:05:16] to submit their electronic devices? If there was was a reason, what was it?
[04:05:18] there was was a reason, what was it? you, Peter replied, they would not give
[04:05:20] you, Peter replied, they would not give us any reason and they've never provided
[04:05:22] us any reason and they've never provided me as the main investigator here in
[04:05:24] me as the main investigator here in Australia with any evidence of the
[04:05:26] Australia with any evidence of the claims they could produce nothing.
[04:05:30] claims they could produce nothing. You went on to talk about Ben, Ben
[04:05:32] You went on to talk about Ben, Ben Fitzgerald, and you said, "Ben inserted
[04:05:35] Fitzgerald, and you said, "Ben inserted himself in the process. In my bad days,
[04:05:37] himself in the process. In my bad days, I want to break Ben's kneecaps."
[04:05:43] You call it an unwarranted rumor that
[04:05:44] You call it an unwarranted rumor that has not been proven. Peter, you're what
[04:05:47] has not been proven. Peter, you're what we call the fixer, right? Gary's the
[04:05:50] we call the fixer, right? Gary's the fraud. You're the fixer. That's what
[04:05:52] fraud. You're the fixer. That's what this looks like. That's what any
[04:05:54] this looks like. That's what any reasonable person would see if they
[04:05:56] reasonable person would see if they weren't caught up in some sort of
[04:05:58] weren't caught up in some sort of spiritual deception.
[04:05:59] spiritual deception. Anybody led by the spirit would would
[04:06:02] Anybody led by the spirit would would have been on Nathaniel and Chris and the
[04:06:04] have been on Nathaniel and Chris and the other guys side rooting them on and
[04:06:06] other guys side rooting them on and saying, "Yeah, guys, speak truth. This
[04:06:07] saying, "Yeah, guys, speak truth. This is what we do as Christians." and you've
[04:06:10] is what we do as Christians." and you've come in and you've offered different
[04:06:12] come in and you've offered different stories to different folks and put
[04:06:13] stories to different folks and put yourself in the middle of it as like the
[04:06:16] yourself in the middle of it as like the the fixer
[04:06:18] the fixer on February 11th. You said things that
[04:06:20] on February 11th. You said things that you you said you would never say.
[04:06:23] you you said you would never say. And if I didn't have it's just like when
[04:06:24] And if I didn't have it's just like when I talked to Chris Ree. If I didn't have
[04:06:26] I talked to Chris Ree. If I didn't have the evidence that you didn't know I had,
[04:06:28] the evidence that you didn't know I had, you could have just lied to me this
[04:06:29] you could have just lied to me this whole meeting.
[04:06:31] whole meeting. So there's there's lots of um
[04:06:34] So there's there's lots of um suggestions that you're making here and
[04:06:35] suggestions that you're making here and I'm not getting an opportunity to
[04:06:37] I'm not getting an opportunity to actually respond to each one as you put
[04:06:39] actually respond to each one as you put them on the table. So can you just go
[04:06:41] them on the table. So can you just go back through the dialogue of um the
[04:06:44] back through the dialogue of um the meeting the Zoom call which uh just for
[04:06:48] meeting the Zoom call which uh just for the record we had no idea was being
[04:06:50] the record we had no idea was being recorded uh and we weren't informed that
[04:06:52] recorded uh and we weren't informed that that was the case. So um but you had the
[04:06:54] that was the case. So um but you had the transcript. So there it is. So just go
[04:06:57] transcript. So there it is. So just go back through it again and just let me as
[04:06:59] back through it again and just let me as you're shooting lots of bullets at me
[04:07:01] you're shooting lots of bullets at me and I want you a chance to actually sort
[04:07:03] and I want you a chance to actually sort of respond to any of those that the
[04:07:05] of respond to any of those that the previous sort of set of conversations
[04:07:06] previous sort of set of conversations you shot a bunch of bullets and then we
[04:07:08] you shot a bunch of bullets and then we jumped away somewhere else and so so
[04:07:10] jumped away somewhere else and so so let's just go through it one by one and
[04:07:12] let's just go through it one by one and give me an opportunity to explain myself
[04:07:15] give me an opportunity to explain myself uh if we can do that please.
[04:07:18] uh if we can do that please. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely and Gary
[04:07:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely and Gary as well. You guys, please if you have
[04:07:21] as well. You guys, please if you have any explanations, I would I would if if
[04:07:24] any explanations, I would I would if if you have great explanations, I will not
[04:07:26] you have great explanations, I will not only apologize for what I've shared, I
[04:07:29] only apologize for what I've shared, I will publicly declare your your
[04:07:31] will publicly declare your your innocence and your integrity and I would
[04:07:33] innocence and your integrity and I would have no qualms about doing that. Um
[04:07:36] have no qualms about doing that. Um because what this meeting does is it it
[04:07:37] because what this meeting does is it it brings us to the point where we're
[04:07:40] brings us to the point where we're accountability is coming one way or
[04:07:41] accountability is coming one way or another to somebody. It might be me.
[04:07:44] another to somebody. It might be me. Fine. So be it. Um I'm fine with that.
[04:07:47] Fine. So be it. Um I'm fine with that. But uh Peter, please do please share
[04:07:49] But uh Peter, please do please share anything you you can that would that
[04:07:50] anything you you can that would that would help uh exonerate what you've
[04:07:53] would help uh exonerate what you've done.
[04:07:55] done. >> Uh I asked if you could go through the
[04:07:57] >> Uh I asked if you could go through the transcript again so and would you stop
[04:07:59] transcript again so and would you stop so I can comment on each of the things
[04:08:01] so I can comment on each of the things that you're um assuming create me to be
[04:08:05] that you're um assuming create me to be the fixer. Um so I'd like to be able to
[04:08:07] the fixer. Um so I'd like to be able to comment about each of those things that
[04:08:09] comment about each of those things that you read out. So if you can just read
[04:08:10] you read out. So if you can just read through it again and just I'll just stop
[04:08:12] through it again and just I'll just stop you when I want to comment.
[04:08:15] you when I want to comment. >> Sure. the first I'll read the first
[04:08:17] >> Sure. the first I'll read the first paragraph which was uh you said Graham
[04:08:18] paragraph which was uh you said Graham and I were prepared to put $20,000 put
[04:08:21] and I were prepared to put $20,000 put up $20,000 to do to do that when I made
[04:08:24] up $20,000 to do to do that when I made the offer talking about the
[04:08:25] the offer talking about the investigation here. Uh and at that
[04:08:27] investigation here. Uh and at that point, you know, the other side
[04:08:29] point, you know, the other side withdrew.
[04:08:30] withdrew. >> The other side said they didn't want to
[04:08:32] >> The other side said they didn't want to participate in that.
[04:08:33] participate in that. >> Let's just let's just stop there. So,
[04:08:36] >> Let's just let's just stop there. So, um, I
[04:08:40] again, I mean, I I just it just it's
[04:08:44] again, I mean, I I just it just it's really going to come down, Mike, to who
[04:08:45] really going to come down, Mike, to who you choose to believe at this point as
[04:08:47] you choose to believe at this point as to whether Graeme and I did put up
[04:08:50] to whether Graeme and I did put up $20,000 and that we did say that to Ben
[04:08:54] $20,000 and that we did say that to Ben and that we did make that that clear to
[04:08:56] and that we did make that that clear to Ben and that Ben was the one who
[04:08:58] Ben and that Ben was the one who withdrew. Um, that's my recollection of
[04:09:03] withdrew. Um, that's my recollection of the reality and of the facts and I'm
[04:09:05] the reality and of the facts and I'm not. So, at the minute you're choosing
[04:09:08] not. So, at the minute you're choosing to believe Ben's inter uh recollection
[04:09:12] to believe Ben's inter uh recollection of those uh points of view over my
[04:09:14] of those uh points of view over my recollection of them, that's your your
[04:09:17] recollection of them, that's your your your prerogative to choose to do that.
[04:09:20] your prerogative to choose to do that. But what I'm saying is that there's no
[04:09:22] But what I'm saying is that there's no evidence here other than my word and his
[04:09:25] evidence here other than my word and his word. And if you're going to
[04:09:28] word. And if you're going to >> Sorry,
[04:09:29] >> Sorry, >> there's evidence.
[04:09:32] >> there's evidence. >> Been offered.
[04:09:33] >> Been offered. >> Yeah. It's it's it's the email exchanges
[04:09:36] >> Yeah. It's it's it's the email exchanges you have with Nathaniel where you you
[04:09:39] you have with Nathaniel where you you make no such offer
[04:09:42] make no such offer >> throughout the entire discussion all the
[04:09:43] >> throughout the entire discussion all the way to the point where it's the whole
[04:09:45] way to the point where it's the whole thing's ending. You make no such offer
[04:09:47] thing's ending. You make no such offer and you imply that they have to pay for
[04:09:48] and you imply that they have to pay for the whole thing.
[04:09:50] the whole thing. Um,
[04:09:52] Um, again, I offer the thought that you're
[04:09:56] again, I offer the thought that you're relying on email conversations that
[04:09:58] relying on email conversations that don't reflect the full breadth of the
[04:10:00] don't reflect the full breadth of the conversations that were being taken. And
[04:10:02] conversations that were being taken. And if that's what you want to rely on, then
[04:10:04] if that's what you want to rely on, then that's entirely your prerogative to come
[04:10:06] that's entirely your prerogative to come to a conclusion that there was evidence,
[04:10:09] to a conclusion that there was evidence, and I've acknowledged in my email to you
[04:10:11] and I've acknowledged in my email to you that there was evidence that Nathaniel
[04:10:13] that there was evidence that Nathaniel offered to contribute towards the
[04:10:16] offered to contribute towards the financial costs. I'm offering to you
[04:10:19] financial costs. I'm offering to you that there were verbal conversations
[04:10:20] that there were verbal conversations between Ben and myself because part of
[04:10:23] between Ben and myself because part of this was a a relational thing where he
[04:10:25] this was a a relational thing where he asked me to be an intermediary between
[04:10:27] asked me to be an intermediary between Gary and himself. And so I'm offering to
[04:10:31] Gary and himself. And so I'm offering to you that my point of view, my
[04:10:33] you that my point of view, my perspective, my memory is very clear.
[04:10:36] perspective, my memory is very clear. Um, as I have stated to many people that
[04:10:38] Um, as I have stated to many people that the $20,000 was offered. So, I'm happy
[04:10:41] the $20,000 was offered. So, I'm happy for you to rely if you want to rely on
[04:10:44] for you to rely if you want to rely on the email uh conversation that um
[04:10:48] the email uh conversation that um Nathaniel was prepared to put up money.
[04:10:50] Nathaniel was prepared to put up money. I acknowledge that he was prepared to do
[04:10:52] I acknowledge that he was prepared to do that. I'm offering to you that the
[04:10:53] that. I'm offering to you that the conversation continued verbally and
[04:10:56] conversation continued verbally and ended up in another place. That's and so
[04:10:58] ended up in another place. That's and so it's entirely up to you, Mark, as to
[04:11:00] it's entirely up to you, Mark, as to where you're going to land on on what
[04:11:01] where you're going to land on on what you choose to base your opinion or your
[04:11:05] you choose to base your opinion or your perspective on. I I can't I can't refute
[04:11:08] perspective on. I I can't I can't refute that. Um,
[04:11:09] that. Um, >> right. Well, when would you agree with
[04:11:10] >> right. Well, when would you agree with the following? At least when Nathaniel
[04:11:13] the following? At least when Nathaniel pulled out, he was not aware of an offer
[04:11:15] pulled out, he was not aware of an offer for you guys to pay $20,000.
[04:11:18] for you guys to pay $20,000. >> That's what he's suggesting. Correct.
[04:11:20] >> That's what he's suggesting. Correct. >> Okay. And you have reason to doubt
[04:11:22] >> Okay. And you have reason to doubt anything Nathaniel said?
[04:11:26] >> I'm answering a question at So, I don't
[04:11:29] >> I'm answering a question at So, I don't know where that question's coming from.
[04:11:30] know where that question's coming from. I'm not I'm not doubting that Nathaniel
[04:11:33] I'm not I'm not doubting that Nathaniel offered that. I'm just saying that as a
[04:11:35] offered that. I'm just saying that as a in the email that I sent to you,
[04:11:38] in the email that I sent to you, >> Ben, there's there's an email that I
[04:11:40] >> Ben, there's there's an email that I wrote saying that Ben withdrew
[04:11:44] wrote saying that Ben withdrew the offer for
[04:11:46] the offer for forensic investigation of electronic
[04:11:48] forensic investigation of electronic devices.
[04:11:49] devices. >> Would you still be willing to put up
[04:11:51] >> Would you still be willing to put up $20,000, you and Graham, with an
[04:11:53] $20,000, you and Graham, with an investigator that I choose?
[04:11:55] investigator that I choose? >> Absolutely.
[04:11:57] >> Absolutely. >> Yeah.
[04:11:58] >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
[04:11:59] >> Yeah. >> Really?
[04:11:59] >> Really? >> Why would I choose?
[04:12:01] >> Why would I choose? because it's not going to be about
[04:12:02] because it's not going to be about researching Gary's devices. I'm not sure
[04:12:04] researching Gary's devices. I'm not sure how that helps. You have a guy who is
[04:12:07] how that helps. You have a guy who is good at tech and I mean, how how would
[04:12:09] good at tech and I mean, how how would you find out looking at someone's
[04:12:10] you find out looking at someone's devices anyways? You and you know, you
[04:12:12] devices anyways? You and you know, you said your prophetic notes and stuff were
[04:12:14] said your prophetic notes and stuff were all deleted. So, I don't
[04:12:16] all deleted. So, I don't >> I don't see how that's going to help
[04:12:17] >> I don't see how that's going to help anything. But but what we do have is we
[04:12:19] anything. But but what we do have is we have Facebook page
[04:12:21] have Facebook page >> that was made.
[04:12:23] >> that was made. >> Sorry, Mike.
[04:12:24] >> Sorry, Mike. >> Sorry, Gary. Go ahead, please.
[04:12:26] >> Sorry, Gary. Go ahead, please. >> I I never used the device. I simply for
[04:12:30] >> I I never used the device. I simply for me my my process was in worship which
[04:12:33] me my my process was in worship which again standing next to Nathaniel I think
[04:12:35] again standing next to Nathaniel I think at some point I was standing next to
[04:12:36] at some point I was standing next to Chris in worship and and I would write
[04:12:39] Chris in worship and and I would write down what I received like I've done you
[04:12:42] down what I received like I've done you know many times
[04:12:43] know many times >> but you wrote it down in your device
[04:12:45] >> but you wrote it down in your device like your prophetic notes you write in
[04:12:46] like your prophetic notes you write in your device
[04:12:48] your device >> no no in a in in a physical notebook so
[04:12:51] >> no no in a in in a physical notebook so any any words that I receive in this in
[04:12:53] any any words that I receive in this in the medium in worship and again it's
[04:12:57] the medium in worship and again it's there's there's many instances is Mike
[04:12:59] there's there's many instances is Mike where you know this has this has
[04:13:00] where you know this has this has happened and and again in in in these
[04:13:04] happened and and again in in in these last 10 years this is this is the only
[04:13:07] last 10 years this is this is the only place this is the only instance
[04:13:09] place this is the only instance literally where um this accusation has
[04:13:13] literally where um this accusation has come and you know the fruit the fruit
[04:13:17] come and you know the fruit the fruit speaks for itself
[04:13:19] speaks for itself and you know again I
[04:13:23] and you know again I I see this I I acknowledge this to an
[04:13:26] I see this I I acknowledge this to an objective observer as I said to Pete in
[04:13:28] objective observer as I said to Pete in the beginning the the way this this has
[04:13:31] the beginning the the way this this has been painted absolutely to any objective
[04:13:34] been painted absolutely to any objective observer there's there's guilt but I
[04:13:37] observer there's there's guilt but I know what I know and and again I I
[04:13:41] know what I know and and again I I object to your characterization of me
[04:13:43] object to your characterization of me being a liar. I am not a liar. So really
[04:13:46] being a liar. I am not a liar. So really Gary really quick on this. You say you
[04:13:48] Gary really quick on this. You say you did not keep prophetic notes in any way
[04:13:51] did not keep prophetic notes in any way associated with your electronic devices
[04:13:52] associated with your electronic devices so that nobody could delete your notes
[04:13:54] so that nobody could delete your notes because they hacked you.
[04:13:57] because they hacked you. That's my notes. Oops. So, my emails
[04:14:00] That's my notes. Oops. So, my emails were deleted from that from my Gmail.
[04:14:03] were deleted from that from my Gmail. And also as well, I created a folder for
[04:14:06] And also as well, I created a folder for me to create a photo book for Tobias uh
[04:14:08] me to create a photo book for Tobias uh from his birth because Emma was about to
[04:14:10] from his birth because Emma was about to be born. And I created a a folder and I
[04:14:13] be born. And I created a a folder and I put all them photos in there to create a
[04:14:15] put all them photos in there to create a photo book and that had been deleted.
[04:14:17] photo book and that had been deleted. >> So, you sent an email to or a text
[04:14:19] >> So, you sent an email to or a text message to somebody that said,
[04:14:22] message to somebody that said, um,
[04:14:24] um, just about to go into a meeting. I only
[04:14:26] just about to go into a meeting. I only got the last one on Wednesday and then
[04:14:29] got the last one on Wednesday and then and then found my whole account had been
[04:14:31] and then found my whole account had been accessed and changed. All my personal
[04:14:34] accessed and changed. All my personal emails, prophetic notes, Tobias
[04:14:36] emails, prophetic notes, Tobias memories, everything all deleted. I've
[04:14:39] memories, everything all deleted. I've tried to restore from my Mac, but they
[04:14:40] tried to restore from my Mac, but they got a lot.
[04:14:41] got a lot. >> My journal, my my prophetic notes would
[04:14:44] >> My journal, my my prophetic notes would be my journal, but not my not my
[04:14:46] be my journal, but not my not my prophetic ministry that I did on uh in
[04:14:49] prophetic ministry that I did on uh in meetings. I didn't use electronic
[04:14:51] meetings. I didn't use electronic devices. I I'd use my notebook.
[04:14:55] devices. I I'd use my notebook. You You're the one that used the term
[04:14:56] You You're the one that used the term prophetic notes. I asked you about
[04:14:58] prophetic notes. I asked you about prophetic notes. You answered about
[04:14:59] prophetic notes. You answered about prophetic notes. Your term, Gary, it
[04:15:01] prophetic notes. Your term, Gary, it sounds like you're not you're not
[04:15:02] sounds like you're not you're not telling the truth right now.
[04:15:06] telling the truth right now. >> Does anybody care to disagree with me on
[04:15:08] >> Does anybody care to disagree with me on this?
[04:15:10] this? >> I I think you're in my words there
[04:15:11] >> I I think you're in my words there again. Prophetic notes are my journals.
[04:15:16] >> I asked you about prophetic notes. You
[04:15:18] >> I asked you about prophetic notes. You answered about prophetic notes. So they
[04:15:19] answered about prophetic notes. So they would not have been on your electronic
[04:15:20] would not have been on your electronic devices. And I use that term because
[04:15:22] devices. And I use that term because that's the term that was in the message.
[04:15:24] that's the term that was in the message. Now you're saying that like you that's
[04:15:25] Now you're saying that like you that's not how you use the term, but that's
[04:15:27] not how you use the term, but that's that's how you used it just now. I
[04:15:29] that's how you used it just now. I didn't explain prophetic notes. I just
[04:15:30] didn't explain prophetic notes. I just asked you about them. You assumed that's
[04:15:32] asked you about them. You assumed that's what it meant.
[04:15:33] what it meant. >> I was talking about how I give prophetic
[04:15:35] >> I was talking about how I give prophetic words in a meeting. And so then you
[04:15:37] words in a meeting. And so then you jumped to the email uh being deleted.
[04:15:40] jumped to the email uh being deleted. >> Yeah, he he he may have used paper um
[04:15:42] >> Yeah, he he he may have used paper um from the pullpit if that's the the topic
[04:15:45] from the pullpit if that's the the topic in question. I have to go back and have
[04:15:47] in question. I have to go back and have a look, but I feel like I have a memory
[04:15:48] a look, but I feel like I have a memory of a paper paper journals um from the
[04:15:52] of a paper paper journals um from the pullpit if that's the topic. always
[04:15:53] pullpit if that's the topic. always always use journals.
[04:15:55] always use journals. >> I uh I'm not denying any of that. I'm
[04:15:59] >> I uh I'm not denying any of that. I'm suggesting that at some point he told
[04:16:01] suggesting that at some point he told Ben prophetic notes have been deleted,
[04:16:03] Ben prophetic notes have been deleted, meaning that such things no longer
[04:16:04] meaning that such things no longer existed to be examined.
[04:16:07] existed to be examined. That's what you suggested to Ben. That's
[04:16:08] That's what you suggested to Ben. That's the part I'm getting at. And you're
[04:16:10] the part I'm getting at. And you're saying, "Well, they were never on my
[04:16:11] saying, "Well, they were never on my phone in the first place." And I'm like,
[04:16:12] phone in the first place." And I'm like, "Well, how interesting that you told him
[04:16:14] "Well, how interesting that you told him they were deleted. That's a very
[04:16:15] they were deleted. That's a very interesting disappearance of evidence.
[04:16:17] interesting disappearance of evidence. Oh, I conveniently relocate them from
[04:16:19] Oh, I conveniently relocate them from paper onto my electronic device, which
[04:16:21] paper onto my electronic device, which Oh, it was hacked. Do you see how this
[04:16:23] Oh, it was hacked. Do you see how this evidence continues to stack against you?
[04:16:26] evidence continues to stack against you? >> I'd never suggested that, Mike. You
[04:16:28] >> I'd never suggested that, Mike. You That's That's your That's your
[04:16:30] That's That's your That's your suggestion.
[04:16:31] suggestion. >> I have no idea. That's a response to
[04:16:33] >> I have no idea. That's a response to what I just said,
[04:16:34] what I just said, >> Mike. Can you just help me clarify
[04:16:38] >> Mike. Can you just help me clarify Ben's observation that the notes were
[04:16:42] Ben's observation that the notes were deleted from an electronic device?
[04:16:44] deleted from an electronic device? Where's that information coming from?
[04:16:46] Where's that information coming from? Are you are you doubting that that it
[04:16:48] Are you are you doubting that that it was real? That what I read was real?
[04:16:50] was real? That what I read was real? Gary, can you attest that what I read
[04:16:51] Gary, can you attest that what I read was real?
[04:16:53] was real? >> No, it's a text message I sent to Ben
[04:16:55] >> No, it's a text message I sent to Ben when when to the two days after my um
[04:16:59] when when to the two days after my um device was comprom or my my Gmail was
[04:17:02] device was comprom or my my Gmail was compromised, which I've got screenshots
[04:17:04] compromised, which I've got screenshots for.
[04:17:07] for. >> So, can you just read the text again,
[04:17:08] >> So, can you just read the text again, Mike? I'm I'm getting lost in the
[04:17:10] Mike? I'm I'm getting lost in the backwards and forwards.
[04:17:13] backwards and forwards. It just the part that I that I was
[04:17:14] It just the part that I that I was highlighting is that he uh he mentions
[04:17:17] highlighting is that he uh he mentions to Ben that he had prophetic notes on
[04:17:20] to Ben that he had prophetic notes on his devices that were deleted that he no
[04:17:22] his devices that were deleted that he no longer has.
[04:17:24] longer has. >> Is that what the text can you read the
[04:17:26] >> Is that what the text can you read the text to us?
[04:17:27] text to us? >> Sure. He says, "Just about to go into
[04:17:29] >> Sure. He says, "Just about to go into meeting. I only got the last one on
[04:17:31] meeting. I only got the last one on Wednesday and then found my whole
[04:17:33] Wednesday and then found my whole account had been accessed and changed.
[04:17:35] account had been accessed and changed. All my personal emails, prophetic notes,
[04:17:38] All my personal emails, prophetic notes, Tobias's memories, everything all
[04:17:40] Tobias's memories, everything all deleted.
[04:17:44] Okay,
[04:17:45] Okay, >> that's on my device. That's That's
[04:17:46] >> that's on my device. That's That's literally my Gmail account.
[04:17:50] literally my Gmail account. >> I think what Mike's asking though is
[04:17:52] >> I think what Mike's asking though is what did you mean by prophetic notes in
[04:17:54] what did you mean by prophetic notes in that text, Karen?
[04:17:55] that text, Karen? >> Well, now he says he means journal. So,
[04:17:57] >> Well, now he says he means journal. So, which is which is
[04:17:58] which is which is >> No, no, no, no, no. Wait a minute. Mike,
[04:18:00] >> No, no, no, no, no. Wait a minute. Mike, I don't answer the question for him. I
[04:18:02] I don't answer the question for him. I >> He already answered it, Peter. You just
[04:18:04] >> He already answered it, Peter. You just lost track of the conversation.
[04:18:07] >> He did answer this.
[04:18:09] >> He did answer this. Gary, please share share with them
[04:18:10] Gary, please share share with them again.
[04:18:11] again. >> My journal would be my journals would be
[04:18:13] >> My journal would be my journals would be things that I've written down that I
[04:18:16] things that I've written down that I maybe throughout the week that I I felt
[04:18:18] maybe throughout the week that I I felt the Lord was sharing with me and stuff
[04:18:20] the Lord was sharing with me and stuff like that. Then I put that in my notes.
[04:18:24] like that. Then I put that in my notes. And so that would be in my Welsh Eagle
[04:18:26] And so that would be in my Welsh Eagle uh connected there. And so, but it's
[04:18:28] uh connected there. And so, but it's also as well I've I use my Apple notes
[04:18:30] also as well I've I use my Apple notes as well, which again, it's they're there
[04:18:33] as well, which again, it's they're there to see and and I'm happy for people to
[04:18:35] to see and and I'm happy for people to see them, but they what what I write
[04:18:37] see them, but they what what I write down as I go on the journey. And so, um
[04:18:41] down as I go on the journey. And so, um yeah, I there's no denial there, Mike,
[04:18:44] yeah, I there's no denial there, Mike, that I that's that's what happened.
[04:18:48] that I that's that's what happened. >> Um the only the only other thing I want
[04:18:50] >> Um the only the only other thing I want to bring up is this idea that there's
[04:18:53] to bring up is this idea that there's been no other accusations in 10 years.
[04:18:56] been no other accusations in 10 years. I've heard this line several times. it's
[04:18:57] I've heard this line several times. it's in the public statement and all this
[04:18:58] in the public statement and all this other thing that in the past, you know,
[04:19:00] other thing that in the past, you know, 10 years, there's never been another
[04:19:01] 10 years, there's never been another accusation or concern. I think I think
[04:19:04] accusation or concern. I think I think the phrase was not no one has even
[04:19:05] the phrase was not no one has even raised a concern in 10 years. And um
[04:19:09] raised a concern in 10 years. And um that's not true.
[04:19:11] that's not true. And the emails back and forth with
[04:19:13] And the emails back and forth with Victoria last year are evidence of that
[04:19:15] Victoria last year are evidence of that cuz she not only raised concerns like I
[04:19:17] cuz she not only raised concerns like I questioned, hey, but as she got more and
[04:19:18] questioned, hey, but as she got more and more worried, she started finding stuff
[04:19:20] more worried, she started finding stuff and she started bringing it to you guys.
[04:19:23] and she started bringing it to you guys. And so there's concerns there and
[04:19:25] And so there's concerns there and there's obviously people that have come
[04:19:27] there's obviously people that have come up because Gary in his message back and
[04:19:29] up because Gary in his message back and forth with Victoria says that he's been
[04:19:32] forth with Victoria says that he's been asked about this kind of stuff and then
[04:19:34] asked about this kind of stuff and then people try to use his answers against
[04:19:36] people try to use his answers against him which means people obviously have
[04:19:37] him which means people obviously have ongoing concerns and so this seems to be
[04:19:40] ongoing concerns and so this seems to be you guys are misleading people about the
[04:19:43] you guys are misleading people about the fact that yes there have been concerns
[04:19:45] fact that yes there have been concerns there's new concerns there's there's
[04:19:47] there's new concerns there's there's rebrought up old concerns there's people
[04:19:49] rebrought up old concerns there's people like uh the pastor Nathan D's old pastor
[04:19:53] like uh the pastor Nathan D's old pastor who says, "I believe you guys. I'm
[04:19:54] who says, "I believe you guys. I'm sorry. I apologize." Obviously, that's a
[04:19:56] sorry. I apologize." Obviously, that's a serious issue, but you guys presented to
[04:19:58] serious issue, but you guys presented to the world like this thing was just sort
[04:20:00] the world like this thing was just sort of inconclusive
[04:20:02] of inconclusive or or even worse, these guys were just
[04:20:04] or or even worse, these guys were just bringing a bunch of false accusations.
[04:20:08] bringing a bunch of false accusations. >> I've never presented it like that. And
[04:20:10] >> I've never presented it like that. And every time there's been a qu and again,
[04:20:12] every time there's been a qu and again, every time someone's asked me questions,
[04:20:15] every time someone's asked me questions, it's always related back to Glory City.
[04:20:17] it's always related back to Glory City. It's never been
[04:20:19] It's never been >> to other ministry. And and again, I've
[04:20:22] >> to other ministry. And and again, I've been I've been honorable in not
[04:20:25] been I've been honorable in not mentioning names. Never mentioned
[04:20:27] mentioning names. Never mentioned Nathaniel's name, Haley's,
[04:20:29] Nathaniel's name, Haley's, Chris was never in the picture. So
[04:20:31] Chris was never in the picture. So again, I've never mentioned Chris, but
[04:20:34] again, I've never mentioned Chris, but Daniel or or Ben, I've never mentioned
[04:20:37] Daniel or or Ben, I've never mentioned their name. And I've been very
[04:20:39] their name. And I've been very transparent and open about the process.
[04:20:42] transparent and open about the process. And in that sort of respect,
[04:20:44] And in that sort of respect, interestingly, with Victoria, it was a
[04:20:47] interestingly, with Victoria, it was a random email. And again, we were having
[04:20:50] random email. And again, we were having random emails from random people asking
[04:20:52] random emails from random people asking questions. And so simply the response
[04:20:54] questions. And so simply the response was, "Hey, could you let us know who you
[04:20:56] was, "Hey, could you let us know who you are and and you know what church you're
[04:20:58] are and and you know what church you're part of?" Because again, one of the
[04:21:01] part of?" Because again, one of the things that I I'm finding difficult,
[04:21:03] things that I I'm finding difficult, Mike, is is people are approaching in
[04:21:07] Mike, is is people are approaching in unbiblical ways trying to get biblical
[04:21:09] unbiblical ways trying to get biblical outcomes. And and again there there
[04:21:13] outcomes. And and again there there seems to be this this sort of smaller
[04:21:15] seems to be this this sort of smaller mirrors approach where they they're
[04:21:18] mirrors approach where they they're looking for full transparency and
[04:21:20] looking for full transparency and vulnerability but are not offering that
[04:21:23] vulnerability but are not offering that you know in the first place.
[04:21:29] >> I don't understand how that answers my
[04:21:31] >> I don't understand how that answers my question. Um here's the here's the
[04:21:33] question. Um here's the here's the thing.
[04:21:37] There have obviously been ongoing
[04:21:38] There have obviously been ongoing concerns. you guys have presented things
[04:21:40] concerns. you guys have presented things in in public in a way that is different
[04:21:42] in in public in a way that is different than what they are in reality. Um the
[04:21:45] than what they are in reality. Um the evidence seems mounted. I if you guys
[04:21:47] evidence seems mounted. I if you guys are up for it, I'd be happy to contact
[04:21:49] are up for it, I'd be happy to contact an organization and I'm not I don't care
[04:21:52] an organization and I'm not I don't care about examining I don't see how
[04:21:54] about examining I don't see how examining devices helps the situation in
[04:21:55] examining devices helps the situation in the first place, anybody's devices for
[04:21:57] the first place, anybody's devices for that matter. Um I think what we have to
[04:21:59] that matter. Um I think what we have to look at is the words and the Facebook
[04:22:00] look at is the words and the Facebook posts which are already documented in
[04:22:02] posts which are already documented in the dossier that was created and uh we
[04:22:05] the dossier that was created and uh we can share what's there. And the thing
[04:22:07] can share what's there. And the thing is, um, it seems as plain as the nose on
[04:22:11] is, um, it seems as plain as the nose on your face what's happened here. And
[04:22:13] your face what's happened here. And there are others who have concerns
[04:22:15] there are others who have concerns whether you feel they've brought them to
[04:22:16] whether you feel they've brought them to you or not. I don't know how you guys
[04:22:18] you or not. I don't know how you guys react to people when they bring up
[04:22:19] react to people when they bring up concerns, if you create a real open door
[04:22:20] concerns, if you create a real open door for that or not. There's one of the
[04:22:23] for that or not. There's one of the comments on the I'll read it to you
[04:22:24] comments on the I'll read it to you guys. This is sad.
[04:22:27] guys. This is sad. When this stuff started going public,
[04:22:29] When this stuff started going public, there was a there was a pe a person who
[04:22:30] there was a there was a pe a person who went out and said, "Hey, I want to I
[04:22:32] went out and said, "Hey, I want to I want to say this is what happened." and
[04:22:34] want to say this is what happened." and Gary Morgan prophecy that hurt my
[04:22:36] Gary Morgan prophecy that hurt my family. And then someone else, you know,
[04:22:39] family. And then someone else, you know, chimes in and responds underneath and
[04:22:40] chimes in and responds underneath and they said the following. I'll read it to
[04:22:41] they said the following. I'll read it to you. And I have no reason to to not take
[04:22:43] you. And I have no reason to to not take this at face value. They weren't trying
[04:22:46] this at face value. They weren't trying to draw attention to themselves. She
[04:22:48] to draw attention to themselves. She just says the following. I know this
[04:22:50] just says the following. I know this prophet, too. And I'll never forget how
[04:22:52] prophet, too. And I'll never forget how he prophesied over our darling Nittton,
[04:22:54] he prophesied over our darling Nittton, their kid. When he was fearful that the
[04:22:56] their kid. When he was fearful that the cancer had returned, he told our boy
[04:22:58] cancer had returned, he told our boy that he was cured and the cancer would
[04:22:59] that he was cured and the cancer would not be returning. So Nitton did not seek
[04:23:01] not be returning. So Nitton did not seek treatment. delaying treatment was a
[04:23:03] treatment. delaying treatment was a fatal mistake. I cannot forget that and
[04:23:05] fatal mistake. I cannot forget that and I can't forgive. I just can't find a way
[04:23:07] I can't forgive. I just can't find a way to trust in church leaders anymore and
[04:23:09] to trust in church leaders anymore and I've walked away. I'm so saddened for
[04:23:10] I've walked away. I'm so saddened for you and Stu sending so much love to you
[04:23:12] you and Stu sending so much love to you that she's talking about the other
[04:23:13] that she's talking about the other person who suffered uh reportedly
[04:23:15] person who suffered uh reportedly because of uh your prophetic ministry
[04:23:17] because of uh your prophetic ministry not being uh genuine. Uh wasn't there
[04:23:21] not being uh genuine. Uh wasn't there Kib? So Nathaniel, do you want to share
[04:23:24] Kib? So Nathaniel, do you want to share more on that? if anyone
[04:23:29] >> um this person said that it wasn't their
[04:23:33] >> um this person said that it wasn't their child, it was a person from their
[04:23:36] child, it was a person from their church. The person who wrote the comment
[04:23:38] church. The person who wrote the comment I think was on staff at the church
[04:23:40] I think was on staff at the church >> and they called him our boy because he
[04:23:42] >> and they called him our boy because he was on the worship team. they were we
[04:23:44] was on the worship team. they were we this person was on staff um and yeah
[04:23:48] this person was on staff um and yeah reached out several times to beg him to
[04:23:51] reached out several times to beg him to seek medical treatment because they had
[04:23:53] seek medical treatment because they had been in palative care and understood the
[04:23:55] been in palative care and understood the signs um
[04:24:03] >> do you remember prophesying about
[04:24:05] >> do you remember prophesying about Nittton Gary
[04:24:07] Nittton Gary >> what's the name
[04:24:09] >> what's the name >> n i t i n
[04:24:12] >> n i t i n >> I Don't
[04:24:15] >> I Don't where where was this? What church?
[04:24:19] where where was this? What church? >> I don't know if you guys have more
[04:24:20] >> I don't know if you guys have more details.
[04:24:22] details. >> Yeah. Um I believe Larry Sebastian's
[04:24:24] >> Yeah. Um I believe Larry Sebastian's church. We only know what you know from
[04:24:26] church. We only know what you know from the comments um publicly and then have
[04:24:29] the comments um publicly and then have followed up just to understand more.
[04:24:36] >> Peter, how do you handle it when you
[04:24:38] >> Peter, how do you handle it when you hear an accusation like that? What do
[04:24:40] hear an accusation like that? What do you What's your process?
[04:24:45] Um,
[04:24:50] I would want to talk to the person that
[04:24:53] I would want to talk to the person that was directly involved in it if that
[04:24:56] was directly involved in it if that person was prepared to have the
[04:24:58] person was prepared to have the conversation. Um, it's a a heartbreaking
[04:25:03] conversation. Um, it's a a heartbreaking and incredibly significant
[04:25:06] and incredibly significant uh accusation that would need to have
[04:25:09] uh accusation that would need to have some level of
[04:25:12] some level of at least human empathy, if not deep
[04:25:15] at least human empathy, if not deep concern about what's actually happened
[04:25:17] concern about what's actually happened there in the ministry time.
[04:25:23] >> Can you repeat what happened, Mike? Cuz
[04:25:24] >> Can you repeat what happened, Mike? Cuz I I have no recollection of that.
[04:25:27] I I have no recollection of that. I don't know what the accusation is.
[04:25:32] >> The accusation is that you prophesied
[04:25:34] >> The accusation is that you prophesied over this this Nitten that um the cancer
[04:25:38] over this this Nitten that um the cancer would not return and so they did not
[04:25:41] would not return and so they did not seek treatment when it did and delaying
[04:25:44] seek treatment when it did and delaying treatment ended up being a fatal mistake
[04:25:46] treatment ended up being a fatal mistake and so they died.
[04:25:53] I honestly hand on heart I have no
[04:25:56] I honestly hand on heart I have no recollection and and on heart that that
[04:26:00] recollection and and on heart that that goes outside of protocols that that we
[04:26:02] goes outside of protocols that that we teach in our school and and I live by by
[04:26:05] teach in our school and and I live by by myself. That's
[04:26:06] myself. That's >> so if I found like two or three
[04:26:08] >> so if I found like two or three witnesses that that validated that this
[04:26:10] witnesses that that validated that this in fact
[04:26:11] in fact >> I I record every prophetic word I give I
[04:26:14] >> I I record every prophetic word I give I I I either record myself or ask the
[04:26:17] I I either record myself or ask the person to record it. Is this something
[04:26:18] person to record it. Is this something that was recorded? I don't have more
[04:26:21] that was recorded? I don't have more information than what I share with you.
[04:26:24] information than what I share with you. >> I am I'm I'm devastated, Mike. That's I'
[04:26:28] >> I am I'm I'm devastated, Mike. That's I' I've never No one's ever approached me
[04:26:31] I've never No one's ever approached me and said that happened. Not even the
[04:26:32] and said that happened. Not even the pastor said something like that
[04:26:34] pastor said something like that happened. And
[04:26:36] happened. And >> do you check on people when you prophesy
[04:26:38] >> do you check on people when you prophesy about them? Do you follow up, see how
[04:26:40] about them? Do you follow up, see how they're doing?
[04:26:43] they're doing? I mean, you guys, it's a culture. It's a
[04:26:45] I mean, you guys, it's a culture. It's a culture where nobody feels like they
[04:26:46] culture where nobody feels like they could come to you.
[04:26:48] could come to you. And then when they do, you know,
[04:26:50] And then when they do, you know, Nathaniel here and his wife are treated
[04:26:52] Nathaniel here and his wife are treated like paras.
[04:26:55] like paras. And they're completely justified.
[04:26:57] And they're completely justified. They're completely justified. How did
[04:26:58] They're completely justified. How did you not champion them? Peter Alan, were
[04:27:01] you not champion them? Peter Alan, were you involved 10 years ago, Alan? Were
[04:27:02] you involved 10 years ago, Alan? Were you are you more recent? Right.
[04:27:05] you are you more recent? Right. >> Yeah, I'm more I'm more recent.
[04:27:07] >> Yeah, I'm more I'm more recent. >> I mean, Alan, what do you honestly think
[04:27:09] >> I mean, Alan, what do you honestly think about all this? It's an overwhelming
[04:27:10] about all this? It's an overwhelming amount of evidence. I've caught specific
[04:27:12] amount of evidence. I've caught specific deceptions even in our call just here
[04:27:14] deceptions even in our call just here today. Anybody else seeing this would
[04:27:17] today. Anybody else seeing this would would know what this is and you're in an
[04:27:19] would know what this is and you're in an awkward position because you're like,
[04:27:21] awkward position because you're like, "Okay, you know, do I just continue
[04:27:23] "Okay, you know, do I just continue towing the party line or do I just call
[04:27:25] towing the party line or do I just call it what it is?"
[04:27:27] it what it is?" >> I I think the the difficulty we've got
[04:27:30] >> I I think the the difficulty we've got here, Mike, is you're clearly stating
[04:27:33] here, Mike, is you're clearly stating facts and and you we we're all
[04:27:36] facts and and you we we're all acknowledging the facts. Gary called out
[04:27:39] acknowledging the facts. Gary called out a word that was also the same as a fake
[04:27:42] a word that was also the same as a fake Facebook account. Um, you know, emails
[04:27:46] Facebook account. Um, you know, emails were sent that we are very doubtful that
[04:27:48] were sent that we are very doubtful that person exists, etc., etc. But then
[04:27:51] person exists, etc., etc. But then there's the narrative that goes over
[04:27:53] there's the narrative that goes over those facts and one side is choosing to
[04:27:56] those facts and one side is choosing to interpret those facts a certain way. So,
[04:27:58] interpret those facts a certain way. So, for example, you know, you've been
[04:28:00] for example, you know, you've been caught out, what was the word that you
[04:28:02] caught out, what was the word that you just used that you said about Pete's
[04:28:04] just used that you said about Pete's behavior?
[04:28:07] behavior? >> What? as a fixer.
[04:28:08] >> What? as a fixer. >> No, no, just just right before you threw
[04:28:11] >> No, no, just just right before you threw to me. Hey guys, you know, you were
[04:28:12] to me. Hey guys, you know, you were having this conversation and and
[04:28:15] having this conversation and and >> deceptive. Deceptive was
[04:28:17] >> deceptive. Deceptive was >> Yeah, you've all, you know, it's clear
[04:28:18] >> Yeah, you've all, you know, it's clear that Pete's been deceptive. It's like,
[04:28:20] that Pete's been deceptive. It's like, well, I'm not sure it's clear that Pete
[04:28:22] well, I'm not sure it's clear that Pete is deceptive because that would
[04:28:24] is deceptive because that would attribute motive to his heart. It is
[04:28:26] attribute motive to his heart. It is clear that things have been said and
[04:28:29] clear that things have been said and that Pete doesn't have a recollection
[04:28:31] that Pete doesn't have a recollection that's been said. So, as I sit here
[04:28:33] that's been said. So, as I sit here listening to this, one of the advantages
[04:28:36] listening to this, one of the advantages I have is that I've known Gary 20 plus
[04:28:40] I have is that I've known Gary 20 plus years. I've watched him minister
[04:28:44] years. I've watched him minister preocial media. I've watched him
[04:28:47] preocial media. I've watched him be in random restaurants and know the
[04:28:50] be in random restaurants and know the names of people and, you know, go up and
[04:28:52] names of people and, you know, go up and and do things. So,
[04:28:55] and do things. So, again, we didn't hop on the call to
[04:28:57] again, we didn't hop on the call to defend Gary. We hopped on the call to
[04:28:59] defend Gary. We hopped on the call to bear witness to truth.
[04:29:02] bear witness to truth. And it's clear that the the facts are
[04:29:05] And it's clear that the the facts are true, how we're how they're being
[04:29:06] true, how we're how they're being interpreted,
[04:29:08] interpreted, uh have a little bit of concern with.
[04:29:10] uh have a little bit of concern with. >> Alan, allow me to push back a little on
[04:29:12] >> Alan, allow me to push back a little on what you just shared. Um first off, um
[04:29:16] what you just shared. Um first off, um it's okay to attribute motive. That's
[04:29:19] it's okay to attribute motive. That's reasonable to do. If a guy's sneaking
[04:29:21] reasonable to do. If a guy's sneaking around my house in the middle of the
[04:29:23] around my house in the middle of the night, I attribute motive, he is up to
[04:29:25] night, I attribute motive, he is up to no good. And I'm very smart to do that.
[04:29:28] no good. And I'm very smart to do that. Um, it's it's very wise to do that.
[04:29:32] Um, it's it's very wise to do that. There's there's times to attribute
[04:29:33] There's there's times to attribute motive. There's times not to. There's
[04:29:34] motive. There's times not to. There's times where it's unclear. There's times
[04:29:35] times where it's unclear. There's times where it seems obvious. As far as what
[04:29:38] where it seems obvious. As far as what Peter did, he didn't just fail to
[04:29:40] Peter did, he didn't just fail to remember a conversation. I asked him
[04:29:42] remember a conversation. I asked him very clearly, "Would you ever say the
[04:29:45] very clearly, "Would you ever say the following?" And he said, "No, I've never
[04:29:47] following?" And he said, "No, I've never had that position. It's something he's
[04:29:49] had that position. It's something he's never believed. It's something he's
[04:29:50] never believed. It's something he's never thought." And then I have two
[04:29:52] never thought." And then I have two instances of him doing it.
[04:29:55] instances of him doing it. That's deceptive.
[04:29:57] That's deceptive. >> All right. There's which of the two
[04:29:58] >> All right. There's which of the two instances
[04:30:00] instances >> I read.
[04:30:02] >> I read. >> Yeah. What was the email for Victoria?
[04:30:04] >> Yeah. What was the email for Victoria? There's a lot of information that's gone
[04:30:05] There's a lot of information that's gone under the bridge. Mike, I'm just asking
[04:30:07] under the bridge. Mike, I'm just asking you to clarify, not to so
[04:30:10] you to clarify, not to so >> to Victoria.
[04:30:12] >> to Victoria. >> It was the uh the Zoom call.
[04:30:15] >> It was the uh the Zoom call. >> Well, we didn't even get to finish that
[04:30:17] >> Well, we didn't even get to finish that conversation cuz the conversation died
[04:30:19] conversation cuz the conversation died off in other directions. We only talked
[04:30:21] off in other directions. We only talked about one the first opening paragraph.
[04:30:23] about one the first opening paragraph. So, I'm happy to go back over that
[04:30:25] So, I'm happy to go back over that conversation if you want to. Um,
[04:30:28] conversation if you want to. Um, >> if that's what you want to do, I I mean,
[04:30:31] >> if that's what you want to do, I I mean, are you do you think that would be
[04:30:32] are you do you think that would be fruitful to to share what you uh
[04:30:35] fruitful to to share what you uh try to I can try to bring you back up.
[04:30:38] try to I can try to bring you back up. >> I'm I'm not sure what's going to be
[04:30:39] >> I'm I'm not sure what's going to be fruitful, Mike. I'm just suggesting that
[04:30:42] fruitful, Mike. I'm just suggesting that uh we only talked about to say that
[04:30:44] uh we only talked about to say that there were two examples and one of them
[04:30:46] there were two examples and one of them was the uh the Zoom call. We only
[04:30:48] was the uh the Zoom call. We only explored one part of that as an example.
[04:30:51] explored one part of that as an example. Um so, I don't need I don't need to,
[04:30:54] Um so, I don't need I don't need to, Mike. At the end of the day, um, you'll
[04:30:57] Mike. At the end of the day, um, you'll believe what you want to believe about
[04:30:59] believe what you want to believe about the facts that are on the table. Yes, I
[04:31:01] the facts that are on the table. Yes, I I did write to Victoria. Um, I clearly
[04:31:04] I did write to Victoria. Um, I clearly regret writing what I wrote then. Uh, if
[04:31:08] regret writing what I wrote then. Uh, if you want to take it and make it
[04:31:10] you want to take it and make it something more than that, that I'm
[04:31:12] something more than that, that I'm deceptive, then that again, as I said
[04:31:14] deceptive, then that again, as I said before, that's that's entirely up to you
[04:31:16] before, that's that's entirely up to you to create the narrative, as Alan said,
[04:31:18] to create the narrative, as Alan said, that you want to create around uh the
[04:31:20] that you want to create around uh the facts.
[04:31:22] facts. Well, like you
[04:31:23] Well, like you >> I'm sorry. Please Chris share.
[04:31:25] >> I'm sorry. Please Chris share. >> Yeah.
[04:31:26] >> Yeah. >> Can I just ask um so you're you're happy
[04:31:29] >> Can I just ask um so you're you're happy to say now that you have received
[04:31:32] to say now that you have received evidence from us?
[04:31:34] evidence from us? >> Yeah. From Nathaniel and and Dan, you've
[04:31:36] >> Yeah. From Nathaniel and and Dan, you've received evidence. Would you say, Peter?
[04:31:39] received evidence. Would you say, Peter? >> Well, I've always been happy to say
[04:31:40] >> Well, I've always been happy to say that. That's in the all the email
[04:31:42] that. That's in the all the email conversations. That's what the
[04:31:44] conversations. That's what the conversations were about.
[04:31:45] conversations were about. >> Yeah.
[04:31:46] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I'm just curious as
[04:31:49] >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I'm just curious as to why you told Leon that you never
[04:31:51] to why you told Leon that you never received any evidence.
[04:31:56] >> So, So, can we go back to go back to
[04:31:59] >> So, So, can we go back to go back to that um comment in the transcript?
[04:32:02] that um comment in the transcript? >> Just curious, yeah, as to why you told
[04:32:04] >> Just curious, yeah, as to why you told Leo that you never received any
[04:32:08] Leo that you never received any evidence,
[04:32:10] evidence, >> that you got nothing.
[04:32:13] >> that you got nothing. So, what I'm interested in in is hearing
[04:32:15] So, what I'm interested in in is hearing what I actually said, not your
[04:32:16] what I actually said, not your recollection of what I said. So,
[04:32:18] recollection of what I said. So, >> Okay. Nathaniel, do you have that
[04:32:20] >> Okay. Nathaniel, do you have that transcript?
[04:32:22] transcript? >> Yeah, I I believe it's the the one you
[04:32:24] >> Yeah, I I believe it's the the one you have there. Um, Mike, uh, there is
[04:32:29] have there. Um, Mike, uh, there is >> Sorry. Go ahead. Would you like to read
[04:32:31] >> Sorry. Go ahead. Would you like to read it to us, Nathaniel? That would be
[04:32:32] it to us, Nathaniel? That would be wonderful. That little section. It's
[04:32:34] wonderful. That little section. It's >> underlined.
[04:32:34] >> underlined. >> Yeah, I believe you've got it. If I take
[04:32:37] >> Yeah, I believe you've got it. If I take 20 seconds to find it, I can.
[04:32:38] 20 seconds to find it, I can. >> Oh, okay. I can do it here. So, it's uh
[04:32:41] >> Oh, okay. I can do it here. So, it's uh um you were asked, you know, did they
[04:32:44] um you were asked, you know, did they have a reason for refusing to submit
[04:32:45] have a reason for refusing to submit their electronic devices, which they
[04:32:47] their electronic devices, which they didn't refuse? If there was a reason,
[04:32:49] didn't refuse? If there was a reason, what was it? And you replied, they would
[04:32:51] what was it? And you replied, they would not give us any reason, and they've
[04:32:54] not give us any reason, and they've never provided me as the main
[04:32:56] never provided me as the main investigator here in Australia with any
[04:32:58] investigator here in Australia with any evidence of the claims. They could
[04:33:00] evidence of the claims. They could produce nothing.
[04:33:05] Was that a deceptive comment?
[04:33:10] Well, the the context for me in making
[04:33:13] Well, the the context for me in making that comment was that there was no uh
[04:33:16] that comment was that there was no uh evidence through the investigation of
[04:33:18] evidence through the investigation of the electronic devices because the
[04:33:20] the electronic devices because the evidence I again we're going to get down
[04:33:23] evidence I again we're going to get down to semantics. But from my perspective,
[04:33:25] to semantics. But from my perspective, my understanding is that I've got
[04:33:28] my understanding is that I've got circumstantial
[04:33:29] circumstantial uh evidence. It's not evidence that
[04:33:31] uh evidence. It's not evidence that would actually prove would hold up in a
[04:33:33] would actually prove would hold up in a court of law. and that my whole my whole
[04:33:36] court of law. and that my whole my whole premise in the conversations was that
[04:33:39] premise in the conversations was that Gary was innocent until he was proven
[04:33:41] Gary was innocent until he was proven guilty. And so I was looking at it
[04:33:43] guilty. And so I was looking at it through the lens of evidence that could
[04:33:46] through the lens of evidence that could be substantive and and actually prove
[04:33:50] be substantive and and actually prove the points that were being made. And so
[04:33:53] the points that were being made. And so yes, they were the words that I used,
[04:33:54] yes, they were the words that I used, but the context for me in using them was
[04:33:58] but the context for me in using them was was different to the context that you're
[04:34:00] was different to the context that you're wanting to portray. Um, and so yeah, I
[04:34:03] wanting to portray. Um, and so yeah, I mean you you can you can characterize me
[04:34:06] mean you you can you can characterize me in whatever way you want to characterize
[04:34:08] in whatever way you want to characterize me. Uh, Mike, at the end of the day,
[04:34:10] me. Uh, Mike, at the end of the day, >> Peter, stop playing the victim. You're
[04:34:12] >> Peter, stop playing the victim. You're you're deceiving us right in real time.
[04:34:15] you're deceiving us right in real time. Okay? I'm not playing the victim. You
[04:34:16] Okay? I'm not playing the victim. You don't need to play the victim. Sir,
[04:34:20] don't need to play the victim. Sir, you said they did not present you, they
[04:34:22] you said they did not present you, they did not provide you with quote any
[04:34:24] did not provide you with quote any evidence of the claims. Your words, what
[04:34:27] evidence of the claims. Your words, what are the claims? The claims are not about
[04:34:30] are the claims? The claims are not about electronic devices. The claims are about
[04:34:32] electronic devices. The claims are about Facebook pages and words of information.
[04:34:35] Facebook pages and words of information. They did give you the evidence. You lied
[04:34:37] They did give you the evidence. You lied to those people to defend Gary.
[04:34:40] to those people to defend Gary. >> You told me there's other stuff. In our
[04:34:43] >> You told me there's other stuff. In our very first your very first message to
[04:34:44] very first your very first message to me, you told me that the investigation
[04:34:46] me, you told me that the investigation was inconclusive. And ironically enough,
[04:34:49] was inconclusive. And ironically enough, you says you said the investigation came
[04:34:50] you says you said the investigation came to a conclusion of the evidence being
[04:34:53] to a conclusion of the evidence being inconclusive as to whether Gary had data
[04:34:55] inconclusive as to whether Gary had data mined.
[04:34:57] mined. It's still inconclusive because it
[04:34:59] It's still inconclusive because it hasn't been proven.
[04:35:01] hasn't been proven. >> Proven to you.
[04:35:03] >> Proven to you. Ben's convinced.
[04:35:05] Ben's convinced. >> Pro proven in a court of law is is
[04:35:08] >> Pro proven in a court of law is is >> there's no courts of law here. These are
[04:35:10] >> there's no courts of law here. These are people. These are just people. This is
[04:35:11] people. These are just people. This is just the church.
[04:35:14] just the church. >> Yeah. But somebody still surely is
[04:35:16] >> Yeah. But somebody still surely is entitled to a position of being innocent
[04:35:20] entitled to a position of being innocent until proven guilty. There's a a
[04:35:22] until proven guilty. There's a a perception. We've always acknowledged
[04:35:25] perception. We've always acknowledged that there's a perception that any
[04:35:26] that there's a perception that any objective person looking at this is
[04:35:28] objective person looking at this is going to come to the conclusions that
[04:35:30] going to come to the conclusions that you've come to. We've not we've not
[04:35:32] you've come to. We've not we've not hidden from that. We've not suggested
[04:35:34] hidden from that. We've not suggested >> You've definitely not always
[04:35:35] >> You've definitely not always acknowledged that. You've not always
[04:35:37] acknowledged that. You've not always acknowledged that. I've just read you
[04:35:38] acknowledged that. I've just read you emails where you don't Pet You cannot
[04:35:41] emails where you don't Pet You cannot tell the truth.
[04:35:44] >> Whatever.
[04:35:46] >> Whatever. >> And this is and this is goes perfectly
[04:35:47] >> And this is and this is goes perfectly with Gary being a fraud. Gary, I am
[04:35:50] with Gary being a fraud. Gary, I am convinced that you are a blasphemer and
[04:35:53] convinced that you are a blasphemer and a fraud who lies in the name of Christ
[04:35:56] a fraud who lies in the name of Christ and then demonizes the very Christians
[04:35:58] and then demonizes the very Christians who try to hold you accountable. It's
[04:36:00] who try to hold you accountable. It's disgusting. And Allan, you seem crippled
[04:36:02] disgusting. And Allan, you seem crippled to have the ability to just have the
[04:36:04] to have the ability to just have the integrity to call out your own people,
[04:36:06] integrity to call out your own people, which is cuz this is what happens is
[04:36:08] which is cuz this is what happens is what happened to these guys when they
[04:36:10] what happened to these guys when they stood forward. You've got it. It's It's
[04:36:12] stood forward. You've got it. It's It's nuts. It is nuts, Gary. There's no
[04:36:14] nuts. It is nuts, Gary. There's no wonder why you where you run with you've
[04:36:16] wonder why you where you run with you've run with Shawn BS in the past. you were
[04:36:18] run with Shawn BS in the past. you were doing the same thing as him at the same
[04:36:19] doing the same thing as him at the same time as him.
[04:36:22] time as him. >> Mike, would you be open to some
[04:36:24] >> Mike, would you be open to some questions right now?
[04:36:25] questions right now? >> Any questions you want?
[04:36:27] >> Any questions you want? >> Thanks. You you you mentioned and I was
[04:36:31] >> Thanks. You you you mentioned and I was very moved by Nathaniel and Haley's
[04:36:35] very moved by Nathaniel and Haley's retelling of what they experienced. Um,
[04:36:39] retelling of what they experienced. Um, you know, so you guys move thinking that
[04:36:41] you know, so you guys move thinking that you're following the Holy Spirit. You
[04:36:43] you're following the Holy Spirit. You meet with Gary.
[04:36:45] meet with Gary. I'm I'm uh replaying back what I heard,
[04:36:48] I'm I'm uh replaying back what I heard, so please correct me if I'm wrong. You
[04:36:51] so please correct me if I'm wrong. You have a meeting with Gary on the Sunday
[04:36:52] have a meeting with Gary on the Sunday morning. You don't feel like that goes
[04:36:54] morning. You don't feel like that goes well. And then you said, you know, it
[04:36:57] well. And then you said, you know, it was horrible. We were told we were on a
[04:36:59] was horrible. We were told we were on a witch hunt. I'm curious who was telling
[04:37:02] witch hunt. I'm curious who was telling you that you were on a witch hunt and
[04:37:04] you that you were on a witch hunt and and give me the time period of that
[04:37:06] and give me the time period of that happened and then you said that
[04:37:07] happened and then you said that Katherine and I think Tom, is that their
[04:37:09] Katherine and I think Tom, is that their name came back and apologized to you?
[04:37:11] name came back and apologized to you? Can you help me with the time frame of
[04:37:13] Can you help me with the time frame of that?
[04:37:15] that? Yes. Uh I believe so is your question a
[04:37:18] Yes. Uh I believe so is your question a time frame of what in particular?
[04:37:22] time frame of what in particular? >> My my question is I heard that it was a
[04:37:25] >> My my question is I heard that it was a really traumatic experience for you to
[04:37:27] really traumatic experience for you to to be in a meeting and and it sounded
[04:37:31] to be in a meeting and and it sounded like that the that you were on a witch
[04:37:33] like that the that you were on a witch hunt. The accusations followed longer
[04:37:35] hunt. The accusations followed longer and I'm wondering did I hear that
[04:37:37] and I'm wondering did I hear that correctly or did I make an assumption?
[04:37:39] correctly or did I make an assumption? It followed longer than just that one
[04:37:40] It followed longer than just that one meeting with Gary.
[04:37:42] meeting with Gary. >> Yes. And who was it that was stating
[04:37:45] >> Yes. And who was it that was stating that you were on a witch hunt?
[04:37:48] that you were on a witch hunt? >> Again, um
[04:37:51] >> Again, um I guess in the midst of it, it was real
[04:37:53] I guess in the midst of it, it was real difficult for everyone. Tom and
[04:37:54] difficult for everyone. Tom and Catherine have profusely apologized. Um
[04:37:58] Catherine have profusely apologized. Um >> they were people who were were were
[04:38:00] >> they were people who were were were telling you,
[04:38:01] telling you, >> hey guys, yeah,
[04:38:03] >> hey guys, yeah, >> for a period of time. And again,
[04:38:06] >> for a period of time. And again, Catherine has apologized with tears and
[04:38:08] Catherine has apologized with tears and said that um she believed the best in
[04:38:13] said that um she believed the best in Gary and she believed that she had let
[04:38:15] Gary and she believed that she had let her um love and belief in Gary get in
[04:38:17] her um love and belief in Gary get in the way of seeing the true details. And
[04:38:20] the way of seeing the true details. And once she saw the same dossier that has
[04:38:24] once she saw the same dossier that has been unchanged and made available to
[04:38:25] been unchanged and made available to everyone, she came to the re conclusion
[04:38:27] everyone, she came to the re conclusion that Gary was in fact guilty and
[04:38:29] that Gary was in fact guilty and apologized for the way we were treated.
[04:38:32] apologized for the way we were treated. But she was not isolated. There were
[04:38:34] But she was not isolated. There were other leaders that will remain unnamed
[04:38:36] other leaders that will remain unnamed that are close to us who refused to
[04:38:40] that are close to us who refused to reach out. And may I add that not one
[04:38:42] reach out. And may I add that not one person in the last 10 years from any of
[04:38:45] person in the last 10 years from any of this has come to us to ask for any
[04:38:48] this has come to us to ask for any clarification in any way, shape or form.
[04:38:51] clarification in any way, shape or form. Things have been said about us, but very
[04:38:52] Things have been said about us, but very little has been asked from us. And so
[04:38:57] little has been asked from us. And so that really understates some of what we
[04:39:00] that really understates some of what we experienced, but there's no need to
[04:39:02] experienced, but there's no need to dwell on that.
[04:39:04] dwell on that. >> Do you remember when um Katherine came
[04:39:06] >> Do you remember when um Katherine came and apologized to you?
[04:39:09] and apologized to you? >> Um it was 2 months after. So it was in
[04:39:13] >> Um it was 2 months after. So it was in May of 2016.
[04:39:17] May of 2016. >> May of 2016. And I bet that probably
[04:39:20] >> May of 2016. And I bet that probably brought a lot of sal and peace to your
[04:39:22] brought a lot of sal and peace to your heart.
[04:39:23] heart. >> Of course. Yeah, definitely.
[04:39:26] >> Of course. Yeah, definitely. >> Can I read you an email from Katherine
[04:39:29] >> Can I read you an email from Katherine that was sent in August? So, I'm bad at
[04:39:33] that was sent in August? So, I'm bad at math. Somebody else can do it. Several
[04:39:34] math. Somebody else can do it. Several months after that that she had
[04:39:36] months after that that she had apologized in May.
[04:39:39] apologized in May. This is from Katherine. She said, "Hi,
[04:39:40] This is from Katherine. She said, "Hi, Peter. My apologies for not getting back
[04:39:43] Peter. My apologies for not getting back to you sooner." Well, this part doesn't
[04:39:45] to you sooner." Well, this part doesn't matter. I'll jump to the paragraph that
[04:39:46] matter. I'll jump to the paragraph that does. Sorry. As I've not taken the role
[04:39:49] does. Sorry. As I've not taken the role of accuser or prosecutor from the
[04:39:52] of accuser or prosecutor from the beginning, I think it's not necessary
[04:39:54] beginning, I think it's not necessary for me to say too much. This is an email
[04:39:56] for me to say too much. This is an email from Katherine to Peter. I have spoken
[04:39:58] from Katherine to Peter. I have spoken with Nathaniel and he has come to the
[04:40:01] with Nathaniel and he has come to the conclusion that he was wrong in the way
[04:40:03] conclusion that he was wrong in the way he's handled this. He acknowledges that
[04:40:05] he's handled this. He acknowledges that Haley should never have set a trap and
[04:40:08] Haley should never have set a trap and that he should not have spoken to Ben
[04:40:10] that he should not have spoken to Ben about the matter. He's also apologized
[04:40:12] about the matter. He's also apologized to me and will apologize to all
[04:40:14] to me and will apologize to all involved. I'm glad he recognizes this
[04:40:17] involved. I'm glad he recognizes this and I'm pleased he's come to this
[04:40:19] and I'm pleased he's come to this conclusion on his own and I was so
[04:40:23] conclusion on his own and I was so curious about that fitting into the
[04:40:25] curious about that fitting into the timeline
[04:40:27] timeline and I would just love to hear your
[04:40:29] and I would just love to hear your reflections on on that email.
[04:40:33] reflections on on that email. >> Yeah, I I don't think that um
[04:40:35] >> Yeah, I I don't think that um misinterprets
[04:40:37] misinterprets the way. Um
[04:40:40] the way. Um in fact uh it's very clearly in the
[04:40:42] in fact uh it's very clearly in the email thread. The last thing I said is,
[04:40:44] email thread. The last thing I said is, and I believe you have this, Mike
[04:40:46] and I believe you have this, Mike Winger, um I felt a lot of pressure
[04:40:52] Winger, um I felt a lot of pressure >> to uh admit to wrongdoing at any cost.
[04:40:56] >> to uh admit to wrongdoing at any cost. And so I did at one point say, "I am
[04:40:59] And so I did at one point say, "I am sorry that my wife created an email. It
[04:41:02] sorry that my wife created an email. It was quite absurd really, but I guess I
[04:41:04] was quite absurd really, but I guess I was young and I did feel I had to
[04:41:07] was young and I did feel I had to apologize for something because of the
[04:41:10] apologize for something because of the extremity." So yes, I and also there in
[04:41:13] extremity." So yes, I and also there in the email thread, I said, "I'm sorry for
[04:41:15] the email thread, I said, "I'm sorry for going to Ben without asking permission."
[04:41:18] going to Ben without asking permission." I actually felt at the time that I
[04:41:20] I actually felt at the time that I probably needed to ask permission and
[04:41:22] probably needed to ask permission and had been asked to be silent on all
[04:41:24] had been asked to be silent on all fronts. We had friends and multiple
[04:41:25] fronts. We had friends and multiple people we told no one because of the
[04:41:28] people we told no one because of the pressure put on us. So I will say for
[04:41:31] pressure put on us. So I will say for the record, I disagree with that now,
[04:41:32] the record, I disagree with that now, but I will also say with for the record
[04:41:35] but I will also say with for the record and this is important. None of those
[04:41:36] and this is important. None of those things that I apologized for change the
[04:41:39] things that I apologized for change the results.
[04:41:42] results. >> Can you just help me understand that
[04:41:43] >> Can you just help me understand that last phrasing?
[04:41:46] last phrasing? >> Yes, I I I can be sorry the same way I
[04:41:50] >> Yes, I I I can be sorry the same way I word it in the email again. I don't
[04:41:52] word it in the email again. I don't believe this anymore. I believe that it
[04:41:54] believe this anymore. I believe that it was immense pressure put on me,
[04:41:56] was immense pressure put on me, >> right,
[04:41:56] >> right, >> that caused me to see the world in that
[04:41:59] >> that caused me to see the world in that way and believe I had to apologize. But
[04:42:02] way and believe I had to apologize. But putting that aside, um my apology for
[04:42:06] putting that aside, um my apology for involving Ben on the email thread, I
[04:42:07] involving Ben on the email thread, I have said I do not regret bringing him
[04:42:10] have said I do not regret bringing him on board though. That is the next thing
[04:42:11] on board though. That is the next thing I said and I still stand by that to this
[04:42:14] I said and I still stand by that to this day. Um and can you read the first part
[04:42:17] day. Um and can you read the first part again cuz I've never heard this email.
[04:42:19] again cuz I've never heard this email. >> Yeah, I've spoken with Nathaniel. He's
[04:42:21] >> Yeah, I've spoken with Nathaniel. He's come to the conclusion that he was wrong
[04:42:22] come to the conclusion that he was wrong in the way that he handled this.
[04:42:27] >> Is there's a presumably you don't feel
[04:42:29] >> Is there's a presumably you don't feel that way now? Of course not.
[04:42:31] that way now? Of course not. >> Okay. He acknowledges that Haley should
[04:42:33] >> Okay. He acknowledges that Haley should never have set a trap and that he should
[04:42:35] never have set a trap and that he should not have spoken to Ben about the matter.
[04:42:38] not have spoken to Ben about the matter. >> Uh so are you asking
[04:42:40] >> Uh so are you asking >> do do you still feel that way? I was
[04:42:42] >> do do you still feel that way? I was just curious about like cuz the only I
[04:42:44] just curious about like cuz the only I had never met you and I'm trying to
[04:42:45] had never met you and I'm trying to bring myself up to speed on this
[04:42:47] bring myself up to speed on this >> and I'm reading this email and I'm
[04:42:49] >> and I'm reading this email and I'm thinking I I wonder what changed because
[04:42:52] thinking I I wonder what changed because here we are 10 years later talking about
[04:42:54] here we are 10 years later talking about the same thing that you had retracted.
[04:42:56] the same thing that you had retracted. So, are you asking whether I should be
[04:42:59] So, are you asking whether I should be sorry that my wife created a fake
[04:43:01] sorry that my wife created a fake Facebook page? Cuz if that is the
[04:43:02] Facebook page? Cuz if that is the question, it's unusual that I would be
[04:43:04] question, it's unusual that I would be sorry for something I didn't do. I did
[04:43:06] sorry for something I didn't do. I did feel pressured
[04:43:07] feel pressured >> to be apologetic back then for about
[04:43:09] >> to be apologetic back then for about everything. We had been very speculated
[04:43:11] everything. We had been very speculated upon every little that we had made. We
[04:43:15] upon every little that we had made. We So,
[04:43:16] So, >> yes, at the time I apologized. Honestly,
[04:43:18] >> yes, at the time I apologized. Honestly, when I look back at that, I see it as
[04:43:20] when I look back at that, I see it as absurd as the victims really in a
[04:43:23] absurd as the victims really in a situation like this, being pressured to
[04:43:26] situation like this, being pressured to apologize for something my wife's
[04:43:29] apologize for something my wife's actions, which we are one, but she made
[04:43:31] actions, which we are one, but she made a decision there and I championed her in
[04:43:33] a decision there and I championed her in that decision and I still champion her
[04:43:35] that decision and I still champion her in that decision. In fact, I think my
[04:43:37] in that decision. In fact, I think my wife is is really the hero of this story
[04:43:39] wife is is really the hero of this story and I'm not shied away from that. I
[04:43:41] and I'm not shied away from that. I believe that she loves prophecy, loves
[04:43:43] believe that she loves prophecy, loves God, and these decisions were made
[04:43:45] God, and these decisions were made because of that. And yes, I do disagree
[04:43:47] because of that. And yes, I do disagree now with apologizing for that. But
[04:43:49] now with apologizing for that. But again, those apologies, I never um
[04:43:53] again, those apologies, I never um apologized for it happening and I never
[04:43:55] apologized for it happening and I never changed my stance on the record.
[04:43:57] changed my stance on the record. >> Yeah, that's super helpful, Nathaniel.
[04:43:59] >> Yeah, that's super helpful, Nathaniel. I'm just trying to work out what what
[04:44:00] I'm just trying to work out what what had changed. The the other thing that
[04:44:03] had changed. The the other thing that I've I've never understood and I I don't
[04:44:05] I've I've never understood and I I don't think it's been brought up, correct me
[04:44:07] think it's been brought up, correct me if I'm wrong, is as I understand it,
[04:44:10] if I'm wrong, is as I understand it, yeah, I can see in the email threads,
[04:44:11] yeah, I can see in the email threads, you guys were willing to submit your
[04:44:13] you guys were willing to submit your devices and then at some point you guys
[04:44:17] devices and then at some point you guys were not, and I'm curious, what was the
[04:44:19] were not, and I'm curious, what was the decision to not submit your devices?
[04:44:22] decision to not submit your devices? >> We never chose to not submit our
[04:44:24] >> We never chose to not submit our devices. We have on the record been
[04:44:25] devices. We have on the record been willing to submit our devices until the
[04:44:27] willing to submit our devices until the end.
[04:44:31] But Alan, you were you were under the
[04:44:33] But Alan, you were you were under the impression for some reason that they
[04:44:34] impression for some reason that they were unwilling to that there was
[04:44:35] were unwilling to that there was unwillingness on their part in
[04:44:36] unwillingness on their part in particular about the devices.
[04:44:38] particular about the devices. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was, you know, I've read
[04:44:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. I was, you know, I've read about, you know, a hundred emails in the
[04:44:43] about, you know, a hundred emails in the last week trying to bring myself up to
[04:44:45] last week trying to bring myself up to to brief on this. And so one of my
[04:44:47] to brief on this. And so one of my curiosities was, you know, another email
[04:44:51] curiosities was, you know, another email from Pete to Dan. Dan, you're on the you
[04:44:53] from Pete to Dan. Dan, you're on the you can hear what I'm saying is, "Hi,
[04:44:55] can hear what I'm saying is, "Hi, Daniel. Below is an email I received
[04:44:57] Daniel. Below is an email I received overnight. Last night I chatted to Ben
[04:44:58] overnight. Last night I chatted to Ben and he indicated too he's walking away
[04:45:01] and he indicated too he's walking away from pursuing this matter further. Mike,
[04:45:03] from pursuing this matter further. Mike, I've heard you say,
[04:45:06] I've heard you say, "Hey, the reason they walked away was
[04:45:07] "Hey, the reason they walked away was because, you know, Pete made it too
[04:45:09] because, you know, Pete made it too ownorous." I'm just curious.
[04:45:12] ownorous." I'm just curious. Unfortunately, Ben's on the call, so I
[04:45:14] Unfortunately, Ben's on the call, so I can't ask him. Why, Nathaniel, did you
[04:45:17] can't ask him. Why, Nathaniel, did you decide to walk away?
[04:45:20] decide to walk away? >> We did not.
[04:45:22] >> We did not. Oh, so the the email here that uh that I
[04:45:25] Oh, so the the email here that uh that I was reading which was assumed that
[04:45:27] was reading which was assumed that you're you don't want to pursue it any
[04:45:29] you're you don't want to pursue it any further.
[04:45:31] further. >> I think what really happened Alan is
[04:45:32] >> I think what really happened Alan is Nathaniel didn't you know Nathaniel and
[04:45:34] Nathaniel didn't you know Nathaniel and Haley didn't carry the social currency
[04:45:38] Haley didn't carry the social currency to make something happen and Ben did and
[04:45:40] to make something happen and Ben did and when Ben stepped out there was no longer
[04:45:43] when Ben stepped out there was no longer kind of like a heavyweight in the room.
[04:45:45] kind of like a heavyweight in the room. And also could could I say one thing
[04:45:49] And also could could I say one thing >> please
[04:45:50] >> please >> in the email thread
[04:45:52] >> in the email thread um Peter made it very clear that since
[04:45:55] um Peter made it very clear that since Ben had stepped down his position you
[04:45:58] Ben had stepped down his position you might have this mic I haven't got it in
[04:46:00] might have this mic I haven't got it in front of me but it was made very clear
[04:46:02] front of me but it was made very clear that my position um in this I I have to
[04:46:07] that my position um in this I I have to find the exact wording but can you say
[04:46:09] find the exact wording but can you say that anywhere Haley
[04:46:10] that anywhere Haley >> do you mean his role has come to a
[04:46:13] >> do you mean his role has come to a conclusion
[04:46:14] conclusion >> Ben advised him that he no longer wish
[04:46:16] >> Ben advised him that he no longer wish to continue with the investigation of
[04:46:17] to continue with the investigation of the electronic devices now that Ben no
[04:46:20] the electronic devices now that Ben no longer wishes to pro uh the process to
[04:46:22] longer wishes to pro uh the process to continue. I believe my previous role has
[04:46:25] continue. I believe my previous role has come to a conclusion.
[04:46:28] come to a conclusion. That definitively meant for us that
[04:46:30] That definitively meant for us that Peter um had dropped the investigation
[04:46:34] Peter um had dropped the investigation and he went on to say, "I now advise you
[04:46:36] and he went on to say, "I now advise you as a father and give you advice." And we
[04:46:40] as a father and give you advice." And we basically said we we don't agree with
[04:46:43] basically said we we don't agree with the adi with the advice. The advice was
[04:46:45] the adi with the advice. The advice was we cannot agree to uh we must not I I'm
[04:46:49] we cannot agree to uh we must not I I'm not quoting here so you can take a look
[04:46:50] not quoting here so you can take a look for yourself. So, I'm just saying what I
[04:46:52] for yourself. So, I'm just saying what I remember. Um, we felt that we did not
[04:46:55] remember. Um, we felt that we did not have an option to agree to disagree, nor
[04:46:58] have an option to agree to disagree, nor were we able to have an honorable draw.
[04:47:01] were we able to have an honorable draw. And I didn't know what that meant since
[04:47:02] And I didn't know what that meant since his role had concluded before we had a
[04:47:07] his role had concluded before we had a chance to have any say in the matter.
[04:47:10] chance to have any say in the matter. And we simply at that point being on
[04:47:12] And we simply at that point being on staff and very intimidated from the
[04:47:15] staff and very intimidated from the whole thing submitted to Tom and
[04:47:17] whole thing submitted to Tom and Catherine and said we we will um Yeah,
[04:47:20] Catherine and said we we will um Yeah, you can see the wording there. It's in
[04:47:21] you can see the wording there. It's in the email.
[04:47:22] the email. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then Dan, I know you're
[04:47:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. And then Dan, I know you're I don't know where you are in the world,
[04:47:27] I don't know where you are in the world, so I hope it's not too late for you, but
[04:47:29] so I hope it's not too late for you, but I'm reading the last email I have that
[04:47:32] I'm reading the last email I have that kind of just draws this to conclusion is
[04:47:34] kind of just draws this to conclusion is Dan emailing Peter saying, "I will leave
[04:47:37] Dan emailing Peter saying, "I will leave it to God to sort out from here. I will
[04:47:39] it to God to sort out from here. I will continue to try my best to stay in love
[04:47:41] continue to try my best to stay in love and unity with all that been involved in
[04:47:43] and unity with all that been involved in this. I will not be continuing any more
[04:47:45] this. I will not be continuing any more communication on this matter. So again,
[04:47:48] communication on this matter. So again, as an outsider coming to this, reading
[04:47:50] as an outsider coming to this, reading the emails, it it looked clear to me,
[04:47:54] the emails, it it looked clear to me, Nathaniel, I'm hearing you now 10 years
[04:47:56] Nathaniel, I'm hearing you now 10 years later say, "Hey, I changed your mind. I
[04:47:57] later say, "Hey, I changed your mind. I regret that." But it
[04:48:00] regret that." But it I I think the difficulty is I'm hearing
[04:48:03] I I think the difficulty is I'm hearing Mike, you say, "Hey, you browbe these
[04:48:06] Mike, you say, "Hey, you browbe these I'm putting words in your mouth, Mike.
[04:48:07] I'm putting words in your mouth, Mike. Forgive me. I'm I'm using hyperbole
[04:48:09] Forgive me. I'm I'm using hyperbole here, but the this as Mike reviews this,
[04:48:12] here, but the this as Mike reviews this, it's like, hey, you know, Pete
[04:48:14] it's like, hey, you know, Pete heavy-handedly managed this and beat
[04:48:16] heavy-handedly managed this and beat these guys in a submission, and so they
[04:48:17] these guys in a submission, and so they bowed out, and then we don't know why
[04:48:20] bowed out, and then we don't know why Ben bowed out cuz he's not on the call.
[04:48:21] Ben bowed out cuz he's not on the call. And then Dan, what's the point of Dan
[04:48:23] And then Dan, what's the point of Dan Sting? And Dan, you can speak up.
[04:48:25] Sting? And Dan, you can speak up. Whereas I'm over here going, "Hey, I'm
[04:48:27] Whereas I'm over here going, "Hey, I'm reading the same emails as you, Mike,
[04:48:28] reading the same emails as you, Mike, and I'm coming to a very different
[04:48:30] and I'm coming to a very different conclusion. It looks like Nathaniel is
[04:48:32] conclusion. It looks like Nathaniel is like, hey guys, I dropped the ball. I
[04:48:34] like, hey guys, I dropped the ball. I made a mistake. I'm deeply sorry." Next
[04:48:37] made a mistake. I'm deeply sorry." Next domino is Ben saying, "Hey, I'm I'm
[04:48:39] domino is Ben saying, "Hey, I'm I'm bowing out." And then Dan bowing out.
[04:48:41] bowing out." And then Dan bowing out. So, as I look at this, I come to a
[04:48:43] So, as I look at this, I come to a different conclusion than you, Mike,
[04:48:45] different conclusion than you, Mike, when you asked me, "Hey, what's your
[04:48:47] when you asked me, "Hey, what's your what you know, what are your eyeballs
[04:48:49] what you know, what are your eyeballs telling you on this?" I have the
[04:48:51] telling you on this?" I have the advantage, which is why I love these
[04:48:53] advantage, which is why I love these calls of listening to Nathaniel give
[04:48:55] calls of listening to Nathaniel give context that isn't in there. But, as I'm
[04:48:58] context that isn't in there. But, as I'm looking at it, I don't think that Pete
[04:49:00] looking at it, I don't think that Pete is being heavy-handed in this, having
[04:49:02] is being heavy-handed in this, having read these emails. He's trying to follow
[04:49:04] read these emails. He's trying to follow an impartial
[04:49:06] an impartial uh investigation. The people who are
[04:49:08] uh investigation. The people who are bringing the investigation are now
[04:49:10] bringing the investigation are now saying we don't want to go through with
[04:49:12] saying we don't want to go through with it. Um and so it comes to its natural
[04:49:15] it. Um and so it comes to its natural conclusion. I don't know if that helps
[04:49:17] conclusion. I don't know if that helps answer your question that you asked me,
[04:49:19] answer your question that you asked me, Mike.
[04:49:19] Mike. >> Allan, you've got the emails there.
[04:49:21] >> Allan, you've got the emails there. Could you maybe read the part from
[04:49:22] Could you maybe read the part from Nathaniel that you thought had him
[04:49:24] Nathaniel that you thought had him pulling out uh and showing that he just
[04:49:26] pulling out uh and showing that he just doesn't want to continue with the
[04:49:27] doesn't want to continue with the investigation so I can understand that
[04:49:29] investigation so I can understand that better?
[04:49:29] better? >> Yeah. To clarify, it isn't an email from
[04:49:31] >> Yeah. To clarify, it isn't an email from Nathaniel. It's an email from um
[04:49:35] Nathaniel. It's an email from um Catherine speaking on behalf of
[04:49:37] Catherine speaking on behalf of Nathaniel. Let me just pull it up.
[04:49:39] Nathaniel. Let me just pull it up. Sorry. But you It's the one you already
[04:49:42] Sorry. But you It's the one you already read.
[04:49:42] read. >> Yeah. Yeah.
[04:49:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um
[04:49:46] Um >> where you where does it have Nathaniel?
[04:49:49] >> where you where does it have Nathaniel? Because you you did maintain there at
[04:49:50] Because you you did maintain there at the end. I understand you right that
[04:49:52] the end. I understand you right that Nathaniel pulled out that from the
[04:49:54] Nathaniel pulled out that from the reading of the email it was like he's
[04:49:55] reading of the email it was like he's going to pull out because he's he's
[04:49:57] going to pull out because he's he's sorry and he's and he's stopping was the
[04:49:59] sorry and he's and he's stopping was the was the message, right?
[04:50:00] was the message, right? >> Yeah. Let let me read it to you uh
[04:50:06] again. So this is an email from
[04:50:09] again. So this is an email from Katherine in in August. That that's why
[04:50:11] Katherine in in August. That that's why I was interested in the timeline. Uh you
[04:50:14] I was interested in the timeline. Uh you know cuz I could understand if this
[04:50:15] know cuz I could understand if this email had come while there's this
[04:50:17] email had come while there's this pressure of like you guys are the worst.
[04:50:18] pressure of like you guys are the worst. You're on a witch hunt. So it was
[04:50:20] You're on a witch hunt. So it was interesting for me to hear actually no
[04:50:22] interesting for me to hear actually no peace had come. Your leaders had
[04:50:24] peace had come. Your leaders had apologized to you. There was lots of
[04:50:25] apologized to you. There was lots of months for that to settle. And then here
[04:50:27] months for that to settle. And then here in August, and again I understand
[04:50:29] in August, and again I understand Nathaniel, these are not your words.
[04:50:31] Nathaniel, these are not your words. This is Katherine communicating on
[04:50:33] This is Katherine communicating on behalf of you, she says, I have spoken
[04:50:36] behalf of you, she says, I have spoken with Nathaniel and he has come to the
[04:50:39] with Nathaniel and he has come to the conclusion that he was wrong in the way
[04:50:41] conclusion that he was wrong in the way that he has handled this. He
[04:50:43] that he has handled this. He acknowledges that Haley should never
[04:50:45] acknowledges that Haley should never have set a trap and that he should not
[04:50:48] have set a trap and that he should not have spoken to Ben about the matter. He
[04:50:51] have spoken to Ben about the matter. He has apologized to me and will apologize
[04:50:54] has apologized to me and will apologize to all involved. I'm glad he recognized
[04:50:57] to all involved. I'm glad he recognized this and I'm pleased he's come to this
[04:50:59] this and I'm pleased he's come to this conclusion on his own.
[04:51:03] >> Thank you for that, Alan. Can I ask one
[04:51:05] >> Thank you for that, Alan. Can I ask one question?
[04:51:06] question? >> Yeah, of course.
[04:51:07] >> Yeah, of course. >> What's the date on that email?
[04:51:08] >> What's the date on that email? >> That is the 2nd of August, 2016.
[04:51:12] >> That is the 2nd of August, 2016. >> Okay, thank you for that.
[04:51:14] >> Okay, thank you for that. >> And Nathaniel, would you say that that
[04:51:16] >> And Nathaniel, would you say that that represented your heart at the time? Is
[04:51:19] represented your heart at the time? Is Katherine misrepresenting you in in that
[04:51:21] Katherine misrepresenting you in in that email?
[04:51:22] email? I think I felt very pressured to admit
[04:51:26] I think I felt very pressured to admit some wrongdoing and also was very
[04:51:29] some wrongdoing and also was very speculative about my own heart at the
[04:51:32] speculative about my own heart at the time.
[04:51:33] time. >> So I do think
[04:51:36] >> So I do think at the time I felt like I needed to say
[04:51:38] at the time I felt like I needed to say nothing to anybody at all. That's what I
[04:51:41] nothing to anybody at all. That's what I was very clearly told to do. And so even
[04:51:43] was very clearly told to do. And so even the thought of talking to Ben who was a
[04:51:45] the thought of talking to Ben who was a close friend of mine who came and
[04:51:47] close friend of mine who came and ministered at Glory City Church and I
[04:51:50] ministered at Glory City Church and I drove in the car for many hours, he
[04:51:52] drove in the car for many hours, he happened to mention what happened with
[04:51:54] happened to mention what happened with an intern and it came up in
[04:51:57] an intern and it came up in conversation. He can attest to this what
[04:51:59] conversation. He can attest to this what happened with Gary as a friend to a
[04:52:01] happened with Gary as a friend to a friend. And if I have to be the one to
[04:52:05] friend. And if I have to be the one to apologize for talking to one person in
[04:52:07] apologize for talking to one person in the midst of all of this, I think back
[04:52:09] the midst of all of this, I think back then I felt like that's fine if I've got
[04:52:11] then I felt like that's fine if I've got to apologize for that. And really what I
[04:52:13] to apologize for that. And really what I had to do was to talk to nobody. I no
[04:52:15] had to do was to talk to nobody. I no longer believed that. Then I did. So um
[04:52:18] longer believed that. Then I did. So um yes, I apologize for that. And secondly,
[04:52:22] yes, I apologize for that. And secondly, um
[04:52:24] um I I think it it was a place of okay
[04:52:28] I I think it it was a place of okay creating a fake Facebook page. It really
[04:52:30] creating a fake Facebook page. It really became I'm sure others can talk to this,
[04:52:32] became I'm sure others can talk to this, but it there was a sense of like even
[04:52:34] but it there was a sense of like even the idea of creating a fake Facebook
[04:52:36] the idea of creating a fake Facebook page is is wrong. It's just very clearly
[04:52:40] page is is wrong. It's just very clearly wrong and no one should ever do that.
[04:52:41] wrong and no one should ever do that. So, I think as well I felt pressured to
[04:52:43] So, I think as well I felt pressured to say, "Hey, yeah, we're sorry we ever did
[04:52:45] say, "Hey, yeah, we're sorry we ever did that." But I stand by the very last
[04:52:48] that." But I stand by the very last thing I said in the email thread that I
[04:52:50] thing I said in the email thread that I do not regret bringing Ben into this and
[04:52:52] do not regret bringing Ben into this and my conviction on the matter has never
[04:52:54] my conviction on the matter has never changed.
[04:52:55] changed. >> Mhm.
[04:52:55] >> Mhm. >> That I believe that although time has
[04:52:58] >> That I believe that although time has passed, the evidence will not disappear
[04:53:01] passed, the evidence will not disappear and speaks for itself.
[04:53:06] >> Um, Daniel's commented on the side
[04:53:07] >> Um, Daniel's commented on the side there. I'm going to read what he said.
[04:53:08] there. I'm going to read what he said. He says, "I couldn't be confident in any
[04:53:10] He says, "I couldn't be confident in any forensic investigation on devices. How
[04:53:12] forensic investigation on devices. How do we know what device was being
[04:53:13] do we know what device was being audited? Factory reset devices,
[04:53:15] audited? Factory reset devices, prophetic notes deleted, and the
[04:53:17] prophetic notes deleted, and the expectation that I would pay tens of
[04:53:19] expectation that I would pay tens of thousands of dollars on an investigation
[04:53:21] thousands of dollars on an investigation that I would believe would likely be
[04:53:22] that I would believe would likely be inconclusive close to 6 months after the
[04:53:25] inconclusive close to 6 months after the event." I I agree with 100% of that. I
[04:53:28] event." I I agree with 100% of that. I think the evidence is already there. Um
[04:53:30] think the evidence is already there. Um the advantage of bringing in somebody is
[04:53:32] the advantage of bringing in somebody is to have someone that all parties agree
[04:53:36] to have someone that all parties agree can speak to the issue. But um but
[04:53:39] can speak to the issue. But um but Allan, I I get it. You're you're trying
[04:53:40] Allan, I I get it. You're you're trying to construct like a story through all of
[04:53:42] to construct like a story through all of these emails and stuff like that, but I
[04:53:44] these emails and stuff like that, but I think that you're constructing even with
[04:53:46] think that you're constructing even with the emails you do have a very selective
[04:53:49] the emails you do have a very selective story. There's the continual uh
[04:53:52] story. There's the continual uh obstacles placed by Peter. There's the
[04:53:54] obstacles placed by Peter. There's the dismissive treatment of the evidence.
[04:53:57] dismissive treatment of the evidence. And then there is just the fact that um
[04:54:02] And then there is just the fact that um uh $600 an hour you guys have to pay for
[04:54:04] uh $600 an hour you guys have to pay for this. Um you know Peter tells us that
[04:54:07] this. Um you know Peter tells us that there was this $20,000 on offer but he
[04:54:09] there was this $20,000 on offer but he didn't tell Nathaniel that apparently at
[04:54:11] didn't tell Nathaniel that apparently at least in the record in the recorded back
[04:54:13] least in the record in the recorded back and forth where they're negotiating the
[04:54:14] and forth where they're negotiating the terms of the investigation. There's no
[04:54:16] terms of the investigation. There's no mention of that. The implication is that
[04:54:18] mention of that. The implication is that >> can I just this again Mike I feel like
[04:54:21] >> can I just this again Mike I feel like you're shooting a whole lot of bullets
[04:54:22] you're shooting a whole lot of bullets at me and I don't have an opportunity to
[04:54:25] at me and I don't have an opportunity to reply. Um, you're talking about options.
[04:54:27] reply. Um, you're talking about options. >> Come in anytime, Peter. I'm listening.
[04:54:29] >> Come in anytime, Peter. I'm listening. >> An open forum. Yeah.
[04:54:32] >> An open forum. Yeah. >> Sorry, Chris.
[04:54:34] >> Sorry, Chris. >> It's an open forum. You just jump in and
[04:54:36] >> It's an open forum. You just jump in and say, "Can I
[04:54:38] say, "Can I can I reply to that?"
[04:54:41] can I reply to that?" >> Can I reply to them? Uh, so the
[04:54:44] >> Can I reply to them? Uh, so the obstacles again I my motive was not to
[04:54:49] obstacles again I my motive was not to create obstacles. My motive was to
[04:54:53] create obstacles. My motive was to establish an impartial approach to two
[04:54:57] establish an impartial approach to two different sides of the story that I was
[04:54:59] different sides of the story that I was trying to find conclusive answers to.
[04:55:03] trying to find conclusive answers to. And so again, I I I can only appeal to
[04:55:06] And so again, I I I can only appeal to the fact that my describing it as
[04:55:09] the fact that my describing it as obstacles, but my intent and my motive
[04:55:12] obstacles, but my intent and my motive was not to create obstacles. My intended
[04:55:14] was not to create obstacles. My intended motive was working from the presumption
[04:55:16] motive was working from the presumption that someone's innocent until proven
[04:55:18] that someone's innocent until proven guilty and that I was not convinced that
[04:55:21] guilty and that I was not convinced that the evidence that was being presented
[04:55:23] the evidence that was being presented was enough to prove that he was guilty.
[04:55:25] was enough to prove that he was guilty. And I was trying to reach for an
[04:55:27] And I was trying to reach for an objective outside perspective that
[04:55:30] objective outside perspective that didn't involve anybody to establish
[04:55:33] didn't involve anybody to establish that. So, so I I just to to say that
[04:55:36] that. So, so I I just to to say that they are obstacles is so far from my
[04:55:40] they are obstacles is so far from my reality and from my understanding what
[04:55:42] reality and from my understanding what was going on that I just have to say
[04:55:45] was going on that I just have to say that that's that's not the case.
[04:55:47] that that's that's not the case. >> Would you suppose if if you let me reply
[04:55:49] >> Would you suppose if if you let me reply to that please. If you went to the
[04:55:50] to that please. If you went to the police and you reported cuz you you you
[04:55:52] police and you reported cuz you you you like the application of like court of
[04:55:54] like the application of like court of law, right? and you reported uh my
[04:55:56] law, right? and you reported uh my neighbor has been defrauding people and
[04:55:58] neighbor has been defrauding people and they said to you um we're going to
[04:56:01] they said to you um we're going to investigate this but because your
[04:56:02] investigate this but because your neighbor's innocent till proven guilty
[04:56:04] neighbor's innocent till proven guilty Peter you have to personally pay for the
[04:56:06] Peter you have to personally pay for the investigation
[04:56:08] investigation would that all right yeah okay so let me
[04:56:10] would that all right yeah okay so let me jump in there so um so personally pay
[04:56:15] jump in there so um so personally pay for the investigation
[04:56:17] for the investigation um again
[04:56:20] um again creating the broader context that I can
[04:56:23] creating the broader context that I can see Allan reaching for is that I've got
[04:56:27] see Allan reaching for is that I've got Nathaniel's pastor saying to me that
[04:56:29] Nathaniel's pastor saying to me that Nathaniel has acknowledged wrongdoing
[04:56:33] Nathaniel has acknowledged wrongdoing and and that happened in August. So now
[04:56:36] and and that happened in August. So now remember this is now trans we're now
[04:56:39] remember this is now trans we're now about 6 months into this thing. So So
[04:56:42] about 6 months into this thing. So So I've I've got I've got um Nathaniel's
[04:56:46] I've I've got I've got um Nathaniel's pastor saying to me that there's there's
[04:56:49] pastor saying to me that there's there's stuff going on here that he needed to
[04:56:51] stuff going on here that he needed to apologize for. So, I'm going, "Okay,
[04:56:53] apologize for. So, I'm going, "Okay, well then that that's worthy of
[04:56:55] well then that that's worthy of investigation."
[04:56:57] investigation." In in pursuing that, I we've we've put
[04:57:00] In in pursuing that, I we've we've put the $20,000 up. Now, I you can continue
[04:57:05] the $20,000 up. Now, I you can continue to appeal to the fact that what's in
[04:57:07] to appeal to the fact that what's in writing and I acknowledge that and I
[04:57:10] writing and I acknowledge that and I can't I can't refute that. All I'm
[04:57:12] can't I can't refute that. All I'm trying to point to is that there were
[04:57:14] trying to point to is that there were conversations that Nathaniel wasn't
[04:57:16] conversations that Nathaniel wasn't aware of and others weren't aware of
[04:57:19] aware of and others weren't aware of that were taking place because Ben had
[04:57:22] that were taking place because Ben had positioned himself in the conversation
[04:57:24] positioned himself in the conversation as the go-to person in in having these
[04:57:27] as the go-to person in in having these conversations. And so so we weren't we
[04:57:31] conversations. And so so we weren't we weren't asking um Nathaniel to pay for
[04:57:35] weren't asking um Nathaniel to pay for it all. That is that is not the case.
[04:57:38] it all. That is that is not the case. Let me read from the email and ask you
[04:57:40] Let me read from the email and ask you if you can explain it better, Peter.
[04:57:42] if you can explain it better, Peter. This is
[04:57:43] This is >> this is from your email
[04:57:45] >> this is from your email >> um to Nathaniel
[04:57:46] >> um to Nathaniel and he you you give him uh several
[04:57:49] and he you you give him uh several conditions.
[04:57:51] conditions. you say um
[04:57:53] you say um Daniel's inclusion
[04:57:56] Daniel's inclusion is in the in the investigation is
[04:57:57] is in the in the investigation is conditional upon and he gives six
[04:57:59] conditional upon and he gives six conditions and one of them is
[04:58:03] conditions and one of them is um number four as Gary has freely and
[04:58:07] um number four as Gary has freely and willingly presented himself to this
[04:58:08] willingly presented himself to this investigation as a self-proclaimed
[04:58:10] investigation as a self-proclaimed innocent party and yet to be found
[04:58:12] innocent party and yet to be found guilty, it is only fair that those who
[04:58:13] guilty, it is only fair that those who are accusing Gary bear the financial
[04:58:16] are accusing Gary bear the financial responsibility for the investigation.
[04:58:18] responsibility for the investigation. Gary believes that he will need to
[04:58:19] Gary believes that he will need to surrender his iPhone, iPad, MacBook to
[04:58:22] surrender his iPhone, iPad, MacBook to the investigation and anticipates that
[04:58:24] the investigation and anticipates that part of the cost of the investigation
[04:58:26] part of the cost of the investigation will include the replacement of these
[04:58:27] will include the replacement of these devices at the point at which they are
[04:58:30] devices at the point at which they are surrendered. At this point, it should be
[04:58:32] surrendered. At this point, it should be noted that the investigation
[04:58:33] noted that the investigation investigating company charges $600 an
[04:58:36] investigating company charges $600 an hour.
[04:58:38] hour. Does does that or does that not read
[04:58:40] Does does that or does that not read like they will bear the entire financial
[04:58:42] like they will bear the entire financial burden at $600 an hour as well as having
[04:58:45] burden at $600 an hour as well as having to purchase new electronic devices for
[04:58:47] to purchase new electronic devices for Gary and themselves when they were when
[04:58:49] Gary and themselves when they were when they turn theirs in and have to buy
[04:58:50] they turn theirs in and have to buy their own stuff as well.
[04:58:53] their own stuff as well. How is that not wildly unfair?
[04:58:57] How is that not wildly unfair? Um, it's not wildly unfair because I
[04:59:00] Um, it's not wildly unfair because I knew that I had presented that there
[04:59:02] knew that I had presented that there were $20,000 that we were prepared to
[04:59:05] were $20,000 that we were prepared to put up which is not included in the
[04:59:07] put up which is not included in the context.
[04:59:08] context. >> It's not in the emails and everybody who
[04:59:10] >> It's not in the emails and everybody who is on that email chain says that you you
[04:59:11] is on that email chain says that you you never said that to them.
[04:59:13] never said that to them. >> Yeah,
[04:59:14] >> Yeah, that's right. Isn't it weird that you've
[04:59:17] that's right. Isn't it weird that you've you've you've said this $20,000 to Ben
[04:59:20] you've you've said this $20,000 to Ben over the phone, yet at the very end of
[04:59:22] over the phone, yet at the very end of the the conversation, you conclude it
[04:59:25] the the conversation, you conclude it with you will bear the full financial
[04:59:27] with you will bear the full financial cost. Wouldn't you just think to include
[04:59:29] cost. Wouldn't you just think to include that in there if that's your summary of
[04:59:32] that in there if that's your summary of the entire your entire position?
[04:59:35] the entire your entire position? >> Can I jump in here just for a second
[04:59:37] >> Can I jump in here just for a second with a question? Because I've just asked
[04:59:40] with a question? Because I've just asked one. So, if I can just wait for that,
[04:59:41] one. So, if I can just wait for that, Alan, that'd be great.
[04:59:43] Alan, that'd be great. >> Of course, Chris.
[04:59:46] >> Of course, Chris. Um,
[04:59:48] Um, I can only tell you
[04:59:53] I I don't have an objective an answer
[04:59:56] I I don't have an objective an answer that's going to satisfy you on that one,
[04:59:57] that's going to satisfy you on that one, Chris. I
[04:59:59] Chris. I >> You've wrapped it up. You've wrapped it
[05:00:01] >> You've wrapped it up. You've wrapped it up and you've said, "Here's my
[05:00:03] up and you've said, "Here's my conclusion of everything."
[05:00:05] conclusion of everything." And you've put in there, you guys will
[05:00:07] And you've put in there, you guys will bear the full weight. You guys will
[05:00:09] bear the full weight. You guys will replace their the cost of the devices.
[05:00:12] replace their the cost of the devices. And just to let you know, it's 600 an
[05:00:14] And just to let you know, it's 600 an hour. That's the investigating team that
[05:00:15] hour. That's the investigating team that I'm selecting. Uh, meanwhile, you you're
[05:00:19] I'm selecting. Uh, meanwhile, you you're referring to some conversation, who
[05:00:20] referring to some conversation, who knows when, with Ben that Ben doesn't
[05:00:22] knows when, with Ben that Ben doesn't even remember. Wouldn't you have thought
[05:00:25] even remember. Wouldn't you have thought if that was a serious concern? I mean,
[05:00:27] if that was a serious concern? I mean, you put that on your public statement
[05:00:29] you put that on your public statement that this was a major piece that you you
[05:00:31] that this was a major piece that you you were presenting, like, hey, we put in
[05:00:33] were presenting, like, hey, we put in 20K.
[05:00:35] 20K. Wouldn't you have concluded that if that
[05:00:37] Wouldn't you have concluded that if that was really your heart at the time to let
[05:00:39] was really your heart at the time to let them know that they're not going to have
[05:00:40] them know that they're not going to have to bear the full financial cost if you
[05:00:43] to bear the full financial cost if you and Graeme Cook were ready to do that?
[05:00:46] and Graeme Cook were ready to do that? >> That's one way of describing the events
[05:00:47] >> That's one way of describing the events that we're talking about. Absolutely.
[05:00:50] that we're talking about. Absolutely. >> How would you describe it?
[05:00:53] >> How would you describe it? >> I don't have an explanation for it other
[05:00:56] >> I don't have an explanation for it other than the fact that there was a broader
[05:00:58] than the fact that there was a broader context in which the conversations were
[05:01:00] context in which the conversations were taking place and that that information
[05:01:03] taking place and that that information was available elsewhere. That's all I'm
[05:01:05] was available elsewhere. That's all I'm saying.
[05:01:07] saying. >> I can't find that elsewhere, including
[05:01:09] >> I can't find that elsewhere, including the source of the information, but uh
[05:01:11] the source of the information, but uh Okay,
[05:01:12] Okay, >> there's and there's there's more.
[05:01:15] >> there's and there's there's more. You required you required that they give
[05:01:18] You required you required that they give you the information that they wanted to
[05:01:20] you the information that they wanted to find.
[05:01:22] find. >> Mike, Alan was going to
[05:01:23] >> Mike, Alan was going to >> Okay, I apologize. Allan, please take
[05:01:25] >> Okay, I apologize. Allan, please take the floor.
[05:01:27] the floor. Chris, I love I love your your question
[05:01:29] Chris, I love I love your your question and I appreciate Pete's
[05:01:33] and I appreciate Pete's honesty in saying, "Hey, I can't give
[05:01:35] honesty in saying, "Hey, I can't give you an objective answer and I would like
[05:01:38] you an objective answer and I would like to offer subjective observation. It's
[05:01:40] to offer subjective observation. It's not an answer cuz again, I wasn't there,
[05:01:42] not an answer cuz again, I wasn't there, but as somebody who's immersed himself
[05:01:44] but as somebody who's immersed himself in this reading,
[05:01:46] in this reading, it it would in fact Mike, did you read
[05:01:48] it it would in fact Mike, did you read that email, the bit about, hey, we'd
[05:01:50] that email, the bit about, hey, we'd expect to bear the cost?" Can you tell
[05:01:51] expect to bear the cost?" Can you tell me the date of that just so I know where
[05:01:53] me the date of that just so I know where it fits in the timeline? And and the
[05:01:55] it fits in the timeline? And and the reason I'm asking for that uh Chris is
[05:01:59] reason I'm asking for that uh Chris is simply that this process by its very
[05:02:02] simply that this process by its very nature
[05:02:03] nature uh grew. You know, it had a life to it.
[05:02:05] uh grew. You know, it had a life to it. There was emails back and forth. Things
[05:02:07] There was emails back and forth. Things were refined. Um and I just want to know
[05:02:10] were refined. Um and I just want to know where where did that land in the
[05:02:12] where where did that land in the timeline?
[05:02:14] timeline? >> Right at the end.
[05:02:16] >> Right at the end. >> Do you have a date on that email?
[05:02:21] >> I didn't have a doubt.
[05:02:24] >> I didn't have a doubt. Wh while you were having a conversation
[05:02:27] Wh while you were having a conversation at some point, I was trying to find I'm
[05:02:29] at some point, I was trying to find I'm almost positive, but I couldn't find it.
[05:02:32] almost positive, but I couldn't find it. The email where Graeme says, "I would
[05:02:34] The email where Graeme says, "I would like to put up money." They were
[05:02:36] like to put up money." They were discussing who's going to bear the cost.
[05:02:38] discussing who's going to bear the cost. And I was like, "Well, we have something
[05:02:39] And I was like, "Well, we have something in writing." And I realized it probably
[05:02:41] in writing." And I realized it probably wouldn't help because
[05:02:43] wouldn't help because >> Yeah. I searched and searched for that
[05:02:44] >> Yeah. I searched and searched for that and I could not find any record of it.
[05:02:46] and I could not find any record of it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh and I couldn't in this in
[05:02:49] >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh and I couldn't in this in this call, but for some odd reason, I
[05:02:50] this call, but for some odd reason, I think I can remember it. Do you have
[05:02:52] think I can remember it. Do you have that date, Chris, or or Mike?
[05:02:54] that date, Chris, or or Mike? >> No, I don't have it with me. I just
[05:02:56] >> No, I don't have it with me. I just remember it was uh it was as everyone
[05:02:58] remember it was uh it was as everyone was wrapping up and Ben's out and there
[05:03:00] was wrapping up and Ben's out and there was a conclusion there. Dan had had
[05:03:02] was a conclusion there. Dan had had capped the position as well. I believe
[05:03:05] capped the position as well. I believe articulated Peter's position at the end.
[05:03:08] articulated Peter's position at the end. >> The reason I'm questioning whether that
[05:03:10] >> The reason I'm questioning whether that if you if you give me a phrase for it, I
[05:03:12] if you if you give me a phrase for it, I can put it into my database and probably
[05:03:13] can put it into my database and probably find the email pretty quick.
[05:03:15] find the email pretty quick. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the phrase
[05:03:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the phrase >> put how about put um once the final
[05:03:20] >> put how about put um once the final report is delivered.
[05:03:22] report is delivered. >> That's a phrase right there. The one I'm
[05:03:24] >> That's a phrase right there. The one I'm reading from was from uh Daniel to Peter
[05:03:28] reading from was from uh Daniel to Peter in reply to his email. And so that date
[05:03:31] in reply to his email. And so that date of that email is August 31st, but I'm
[05:03:34] of that email is August 31st, but I'm looking for the original Peter email,
[05:03:35] looking for the original Peter email, not just the reply, which would have
[05:03:37] not just the reply, which would have that time stamp as well.
[05:03:42] >> Uh yeah. Oh, I'm looking at that brings
[05:03:45] >> Uh yeah. Oh, I'm looking at that brings up an email from Dan to Peter. Sorry,
[05:03:49] up an email from Dan to Peter. Sorry, guys. Where I was going with this is I'd
[05:03:52] guys. Where I was going with this is I'd be so curious to know where that landed
[05:03:54] be so curious to know where that landed in the chain of events cuz it could very
[05:03:56] in the chain of events cuz it could very well have been like, "Hey guys, this is
[05:03:58] well have been like, "Hey guys, this is going to be the cost." And as Pete and
[05:04:00] going to be the cost." And as Pete and Graeme are talking about, they're like,
[05:04:01] Graeme are talking about, they're like, "Well, hey, let's cover it." That's all
[05:04:03] "Well, hey, let's cover it." That's all I was looking for. I was just trying to
[05:04:04] I was looking for. I was just trying to offer
[05:04:05] offer >> the first the 1st of August.
[05:04:07] >> the first the 1st of August. >> 1st of August.
[05:04:09] >> 1st of August. >> Thank you.
[05:04:16] I I don't have that email,
[05:04:19] I I don't have that email, but if it's if it's what I was looking
[05:04:21] but if it's if it's what I was looking for is what was the context in which
[05:04:23] for is what was the context in which that was communicated. That's all. So,
[05:04:26] that was communicated. That's all. So, sorry it didn't add much to the
[05:04:27] sorry it didn't add much to the conversation.
[05:04:28] conversation. >> Yeah. It just concluded like a bit of a
[05:04:30] >> Yeah. It just concluded like a bit of a summary of okay guys, here's at sort of
[05:04:33] summary of okay guys, here's at sort of a context. Yeah.
[05:04:38] >> Yeah. Talk amongst yourselves. I I'll
[05:04:40] >> Yeah. Talk amongst yourselves. I I'll find it.
[05:04:41] find it. Yeah, I had a a question, Alan, that I
[05:04:44] Yeah, I had a a question, Alan, that I asked just at the start. Yeah.
[05:04:46] asked just at the start. Yeah. >> Uh if someone came to you and said,
[05:04:47] >> Uh if someone came to you and said, "Hey, we we suspect this is happening."
[05:04:50] "Hey, we we suspect this is happening." >> Yeah.
[05:04:50] >> Yeah. >> Uh there's a guy that you know, let's
[05:04:53] >> Uh there's a guy that you know, let's you know, just hypothetical third party.
[05:04:56] you know, just hypothetical third party. Uh what would you need to see?
[05:05:00] >> I I think the the evidence that that
[05:05:03] >> I I think the the evidence that that Mike pointed to in the case of Shawn, um
[05:05:07] Mike pointed to in the case of Shawn, um you know, was was fascinating. Uh, I'm
[05:05:10] you know, was was fascinating. Uh, I'm thinking particularly of the word of
[05:05:13] thinking particularly of the word of knowledge that he called out. Mike,
[05:05:14] knowledge that he called out. Mike, you'll remember me.
[05:05:16] you'll remember me. >> I just froze. I'm so sorry everyone. And
[05:05:18] >> I just froze. I'm so sorry everyone. And I caught nothing of your your response.
[05:05:20] I caught nothing of your your response. >> It was profound. And everybody's at
[05:05:22] >> It was profound. And everybody's at peace now. We can wrap up.
[05:05:24] peace now. We can wrap up. >> Everything got solved.
[05:05:25] >> Everything got solved. >> Yeah. Uh,
[05:05:28] >> Yeah. Uh, I think the easiest way for me to answer
[05:05:30] I think the easiest way for me to answer that would be I've listened to a lot of
[05:05:35] that would be I've listened to a lot of conversations go back and forth and I
[05:05:37] conversations go back and forth and I can't help but wonder if we miss each
[05:05:39] can't help but wonder if we miss each other because we're saying different
[05:05:41] other because we're saying different words and assuming we mean the same
[05:05:43] words and assuming we mean the same thing. So, for example, one of the
[05:05:45] thing. So, for example, one of the phrases that have been brought up over
[05:05:48] phrases that have been brought up over and over again, you know, Mike, you you
[05:05:50] and over again, you know, Mike, you you impassionately said to us, guys, like
[05:05:52] impassionately said to us, guys, like you know, evidence, you know, you said
[05:05:54] you know, evidence, you know, you said facts were brought to you. And I would
[05:05:56] facts were brought to you. And I would say facts were not brought to you to us.
[05:05:58] say facts were not brought to you to us. Claims were brought to us and we need to
[05:06:01] Claims were brought to us and we need to work out what do those claims point to.
[05:06:03] work out what do those claims point to. So for example, I
[05:06:07] So for example, I did someone say something.
[05:06:08] did someone say something. >> Oh yeah, sorry. I was just saying that
[05:06:10] >> Oh yeah, sorry. I was just saying that that's still going back to the
[05:06:11] that's still going back to the situation. I'm just asking you for a
[05:06:12] situation. I'm just asking you for a hypothetical.
[05:06:13] hypothetical. >> Yeah, I'm I'm getting there. Sorry.
[05:06:15] >> Yeah, I'm I'm getting there. Sorry. >> Okay. Sorry.
[05:06:16] >> Okay. Sorry. >> You insert a coin in this jukebox,
[05:06:18] >> You insert a coin in this jukebox, please. is uh like so the narrative that
[05:06:22] please. is uh like so the narrative that we've come to is hey when we looked at
[05:06:25] we've come to is hey when we looked at all these Facebook words what do you
[05:06:27] all these Facebook words what do you know they're everything that Gary called
[05:06:29] know they're everything that Gary called out erggo he must have used Facebook to
[05:06:32] out erggo he must have used Facebook to to call these out but if you could
[05:06:35] to call these out but if you could consider for a moment if a true prophet
[05:06:37] consider for a moment if a true prophet of the Lord was calling out accurate
[05:06:38] of the Lord was calling out accurate information why would we be surprised
[05:06:40] information why would we be surprised that Facebook confirms if it's accurate
[05:06:43] that Facebook confirms if it's accurate words
[05:06:45] words >> I think you're missing the details
[05:06:47] >> I think you're missing the details What would you need to see
[05:06:50] What would you need to see >> to to to believe that this person if
[05:06:53] >> to to to believe that this person if someone in in your church community came
[05:06:55] someone in in your church community came to you and said, "I believe person X is
[05:06:58] to you and said, "I believe person X is uh is getting words off Facebook."
[05:07:00] uh is getting words off Facebook." >> Yeah.
[05:07:01] >> Yeah. >> You would you would say, "Well, hang on.
[05:07:03] >> You would you would say, "Well, hang on. Let's not jump to conclusions here. What
[05:07:05] Let's not jump to conclusions here. What is it that you would need to see to say,
[05:07:07] is it that you would need to see to say, "Aha, you're right."
[05:07:10] "Aha, you're right." >> I would need to go to the scriptural
[05:07:12] >> I would need to go to the scriptural definition of a false prophet. Do these
[05:07:15] definition of a false prophet. Do these people lead other people away from
[05:07:17] people lead other people away from Jesus?
[05:07:19] Jesus? Are these people a fraud? Do they live
[05:07:21] Are these people a fraud? Do they live one way but live a different way? And do
[05:07:23] one way but live a different way? And do they make stuff up? Those would be my
[05:07:25] they make stuff up? Those would be my three tests I would look for if I'm
[05:07:27] three tests I would look for if I'm going to call somebody a false prophet.
[05:07:31] going to call somebody a false prophet. What if you just need to say that they
[05:07:32] What if you just need to say that they were guilty of faking prophecy?
[05:07:38] The trouble is with everybody living
[05:07:40] The trouble is with everybody living well
[05:07:42] well see the things I I don't have a good
[05:07:45] see the things I I don't have a good litmus test for you because obviously
[05:07:47] litmus test for you because obviously the evidence or the claims of evidence
[05:07:50] the evidence or the claims of evidence that you're putting forth I've come to a
[05:07:52] that you're putting forth I've come to a very different conclusion than than you
[05:07:55] very different conclusion than than you have. Part of that is because I've
[05:07:58] have. Part of that is because I've witnessed Gary demonstrate astonishing
[05:08:01] witnessed Gary demonstrate astonishing accurate words of knowledge
[05:08:04] accurate words of knowledge without any access to, you know, either
[05:08:06] without any access to, you know, either it predates social media or it was
[05:08:09] it predates social media or it was events where there's no way that he
[05:08:10] events where there's no way that he could have known he was going to meet
[05:08:12] could have known he was going to meet that person to, you know, to look up to
[05:08:14] that person to, you know, to look up to look up that information.
[05:08:15] look up that information. >> There's nothing really that a person
[05:08:17] >> There's nothing really that a person could uh could give you specifically.
[05:08:20] could uh could give you specifically. You don't know. Well, I like the example
[05:08:22] You don't know. Well, I like the example that that Mike used with Shawn BS that
[05:08:25] that that Mike used with Shawn BS that Shawn had called out a person and uh an
[05:08:30] Shawn had called out a person and uh an address. What was it? He called out one
[05:08:32] address. What was it? He called out one thing and got it. It's like, oh, this is
[05:08:34] thing and got it. It's like, oh, this is good. And then said another statement
[05:08:36] good. And then said another statement and they didn't respond to that and then
[05:08:38] and they didn't respond to that and then moved on. And when you looked at
[05:08:40] moved on. And when you looked at Facebook, you saw, okay, this is clear
[05:08:43] Facebook, you saw, okay, this is clear evidence that he was looking at
[05:08:44] evidence that he was looking at something that wasn't the same thing.
[05:08:48] something that wasn't the same thing. >> A different person.
[05:08:49] >> A different person. >> Yeah, it was. So for anybody who doesn't
[05:08:51] >> Yeah, it was. So for anybody who doesn't know the context was uh bulls called out
[05:08:53] know the context was uh bulls called out a woman
[05:08:54] a woman >> and then he said I'm getting Psalm 105
[05:08:57] >> and then he said I'm getting Psalm 105 >> um I feel like 105 does 105
[05:08:59] >> um I feel like 105 does 105 slaughterhouse mean anything to you and
[05:09:01] slaughterhouse mean anything to you and she says no and he goes well pray about
[05:09:03] she says no and he goes well pray about it pray about it and he had called out a
[05:09:05] it pray about it and he had called out a few pieces of information that were
[05:09:06] few pieces of information that were accurate about her that were on her
[05:09:07] accurate about her that were on her Facebook but if you googled her name in
[05:09:10] Facebook but if you googled her name in the same area where this event was
[05:09:12] the same area where this event was happening there was a woman with her
[05:09:13] happening there was a woman with her name who lived at 105 slaughterhouse it
[05:09:16] name who lived at 105 slaughterhouse it was just a different lady right it was
[05:09:18] was just a different lady right it was or the mother's name but it was a
[05:09:19] or the mother's name but it was a different person. So, he had a real
[05:09:21] different person. So, he had a real address for a person of the same name
[05:09:23] address for a person of the same name who lived in the region, but it wasn't
[05:09:25] who lived in the region, but it wasn't the woman he was talking about, implying
[05:09:27] the woman he was talking about, implying that he Googled it, right? It was very
[05:09:28] that he Googled it, right? It was very strong evidence in my opinion. And I
[05:09:30] strong evidence in my opinion. And I think that that what trumps that is the
[05:09:34] think that that what trumps that is the fake Facebook page with a name and
[05:09:36] fake Facebook page with a name and birthday and a comment and then Gary
[05:09:39] birthday and a comment and then Gary calls it out like this is this is the
[05:09:42] calls it out like this is this is the smoking gun of smoking guns. This is
[05:09:43] smoking gun of smoking guns. This is this is how how they caught I mean this
[05:09:45] this is how how they caught I mean this is how they caught Shawn uh sorry, Chris
[05:09:47] is how they caught Shawn uh sorry, Chris Reid in the first place.
[05:09:50] Reid in the first place. It was because they made changes to
[05:09:52] It was because they made changes to Facebook pages and then Chris Ree went
[05:09:53] Facebook pages and then Chris Ree went and dug them up and looked them up and
[05:09:55] and dug them up and looked them up and then was and then was was caught out and
[05:09:57] then was and then was was caught out and was still didn't get exposed and didn't
[05:09:59] was still didn't get exposed and didn't get stopped or anything like that
[05:10:00] get stopped or anything like that because of the culture that's there. But
[05:10:02] because of the culture that's there. But but this is it, man. You call out
[05:10:05] but this is it, man. You call out information that any reasonable person
[05:10:08] information that any reasonable person would conclude you dug up on Facebook.
[05:10:10] would conclude you dug up on Facebook. That's all you need. That's all the
[05:10:12] That's all you need. That's all the evidence you need. And it's not just
[05:10:15] evidence you need. And it's not just like your life's on Facebook. No, no,
[05:10:16] like your life's on Facebook. No, no, no. It's like I say you're a dancer.
[05:10:18] no. It's like I say you're a dancer. Your Facebook photo is you dancing. I
[05:10:20] Your Facebook photo is you dancing. I say you play guitar. Your Facebook photo
[05:10:21] say you play guitar. Your Facebook photo is you playing guitar. It's surface
[05:10:23] is you playing guitar. It's surface level. Everything corresponds perfectly
[05:10:26] level. Everything corresponds perfectly with the public available information.
[05:10:28] with the public available information. This is um this is a no-brainer. I I
[05:10:30] This is um this is a no-brainer. I I think if you guys can't see it, you're
[05:10:32] think if you guys can't see it, you're you're the wrong people to investigate
[05:10:34] you're the wrong people to investigate it. And that um guys like Gary tend to
[05:10:37] it. And that um guys like Gary tend to surround themselves with just the right
[05:10:38] surround themselves with just the right people who will never really hold them
[05:10:40] people who will never really hold them accountable. It's like it's like a
[05:10:41] accountable. It's like it's like a survival mechanism. You can't have
[05:10:43] survival mechanism. You can't have people around you who will truly hold
[05:10:44] people around you who will truly hold you accountable cuz you'll never
[05:10:46] you accountable cuz you'll never survive.
[05:10:47] survive. >> So you yourself with the right people.
[05:10:49] >> So you yourself with the right people. >> Mike, I have to appeal to the fact that
[05:10:51] >> Mike, I have to appeal to the fact that we've always said that if somebody
[05:10:54] we've always said that if somebody looking at it objectively is going to
[05:10:56] looking at it objectively is going to come to the same conclusions that you
[05:10:57] come to the same conclusions that you come to. We've never resolved from that.
[05:11:00] come to. We've never resolved from that. We've never said anything different to
[05:11:02] We've never said anything different to that. Gary has always owned that. I have
[05:11:04] that. Gary has always owned that. I have owned that in the process. We agree with
[05:11:07] owned that in the process. We agree with you objectively. The conclusions that
[05:11:10] you objectively. The conclusions that you've come to are what uh what any
[05:11:13] you've come to are what uh what any person would come to.
[05:11:15] person would come to. >> Okay. I appreciate that you're sharing
[05:11:16] >> Okay. I appreciate that you're sharing that and I think that's a a great deal
[05:11:18] that and I think that's a a great deal of transparency that you're sharing that
[05:11:20] of transparency that you're sharing that and it's wonderful. It is not what
[05:11:22] and it's wonderful. It is not what you've always said to people as I've as
[05:11:24] you've always said to people as I've as I've quoted you multiple times to
[05:11:25] I've quoted you multiple times to different people telling them very
[05:11:26] different people telling them very different things.
[05:11:34] >> Um
[05:11:35] >> Um >> shall I read the quote to Victoria about
[05:11:37] >> shall I read the quote to Victoria about the evidence how it all being all being
[05:11:39] the evidence how it all being all being uh false and proven wrong?
[05:11:41] uh false and proven wrong? >> No, you've already read that. I hear
[05:11:43] >> No, you've already read that. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. So, so again,
[05:11:45] what you're saying. Yeah. So, so again, you're telling me things that aren't
[05:11:46] you're telling me things that aren't true.
[05:11:47] true. >> You said, "We've always acknowledged
[05:11:48] >> You said, "We've always acknowledged that any objective person would see the
[05:11:50] that any objective person would see the evidence and come to the same conclusion
[05:11:52] evidence and come to the same conclusion you just came to, Mike."
[05:11:54] you just came to, Mike." >> Allan says there is no evidence. There's
[05:11:55] >> Allan says there is no evidence. There's just claims. You guys are not on the
[05:11:57] just claims. You guys are not on the same page. I don't know where you guys
[05:11:58] same page. I don't know where you guys are at.
[05:12:00] are at. >> Yeah. Again, it it feels like a semantic
[05:12:03] >> Yeah. Again, it it feels like a semantic conversation. And so, that's that's all
[05:12:05] conversation. And so, that's that's all fine. That's what we're
[05:12:06] fine. That's what we're >> It's not semantic. These are And these
[05:12:08] >> It's not semantic. These are And these aren't just claims, Alan. This is
[05:12:09] aren't just claims, Alan. This is evidence. You you There's a Facebook
[05:12:11] evidence. You you There's a Facebook page that's called evidence. There's a
[05:12:13] page that's called evidence. There's a word that he shared that's called
[05:12:14] word that he shared that's called evidence. There's witness testimony.
[05:12:15] evidence. There's witness testimony. Those those are that's that's called
[05:12:16] Those those are that's that's called evidence. In court, testimony, which is
[05:12:19] evidence. In court, testimony, which is which is claims, is submitted as
[05:12:20] which is claims, is submitted as evidence. That's the nature of things.
[05:12:23] evidence. That's the nature of things. The only person I've had in a very long
[05:12:25] The only person I've had in a very long and annoying debate tell me claims and
[05:12:27] and annoying debate tell me claims and claims aren't evidence is Matt
[05:12:29] claims aren't evidence is Matt Dillahunty, the atheist, because he was
[05:12:30] Dillahunty, the atheist, because he was trying to debunk the idea that Christ
[05:12:32] trying to debunk the idea that Christ rose from the dead and he didn't like
[05:12:33] rose from the dead and he didn't like the witness testimony. But but witness
[05:12:36] the witness testimony. But but witness testimony is actually how a lot of
[05:12:37] testimony is actually how a lot of things are decided in court because
[05:12:39] things are decided in court because claims are evidence. This person says
[05:12:41] claims are evidence. This person says this happened. That's evidence of
[05:12:42] this happened. That's evidence of something. We have to now assess. Is
[05:12:44] something. We have to now assess. Is there another witness? Is there ulterior
[05:12:46] there another witness? Is there ulterior motive? Um, you know, how much does it
[05:12:48] motive? Um, you know, how much does it stack up? And you guys are saying right
[05:12:50] stack up? And you guys are saying right here, at least Peter just did, that an
[05:12:52] here, at least Peter just did, that an objective person looks at this evidence
[05:12:54] objective person looks at this evidence and goes, "Yeah, it looks like he did
[05:12:56] and goes, "Yeah, it looks like he did this."
[05:12:57] this." That's all you need.
[05:13:00] That's all you need. >> And Peter's now acknowledging uh
[05:13:02] >> And Peter's now acknowledging uh obviously, which is good, that it is
[05:13:03] obviously, which is good, that it is evidence. uh you know when before you
[05:13:06] evidence. uh you know when before you said that you you never received any
[05:13:08] said that you you never received any evidence uh and now you say well if
[05:13:10] evidence uh and now you say well if anyone looked at this evidence yeah sure
[05:13:12] anyone looked at this evidence yeah sure they're going to believe that when you
[05:13:13] they're going to believe that when you have a private meeting when uh with you
[05:13:16] have a private meeting when uh with you know Glorious Gospel Church you're
[05:13:17] know Glorious Gospel Church you're saying to them like yeah we were never
[05:13:19] saying to them like yeah we were never presented uh any any evidence um so you
[05:13:23] presented uh any any evidence um so you know it's interesting Alan you're you're
[05:13:25] know it's interesting Alan you're you're saying that what you would need to see
[05:13:27] saying that what you would need to see would be a Facebook call out of the
[05:13:30] would be a Facebook call out of the wrong same name person so you're still
[05:13:33] wrong same name person so you're still I'm not saying
[05:13:35] I'm not saying >> I'm holding to like the three biblical
[05:13:38] >> I'm holding to like the three biblical strands for the test of a false prophet
[05:13:41] strands for the test of a false prophet >> because you're changing your your
[05:13:43] >> because you're changing your your thoughts on cuz before a moment ago
[05:13:45] thoughts on cuz before a moment ago maybe I'm misheard you. It sounded like
[05:13:48] maybe I'm misheard you. It sounded like you said look if something like the
[05:13:50] you said look if something like the Shawn B situation came up where it was a
[05:13:53] Shawn B situation came up where it was a completely wrong person that would kind
[05:13:55] completely wrong person that would kind of be what I would need to see. Is that
[05:13:57] of be what I would need to see. Is that >> Yeah, that would meet one of the three
[05:13:58] >> Yeah, that would meet one of the three criteria. So, one of the three criterias
[05:14:01] criteria. So, one of the three criterias is they make stuff up, which you know, I
[05:14:04] is they make stuff up, which you know, I would be happy to put data mining as a
[05:14:06] would be happy to put data mining as a make stuff up, but as I've already
[05:14:08] make stuff up, but as I've already pointed out, the difficulty with
[05:14:10] pointed out, the difficulty with appealing to Facebook for oh my gosh,
[05:14:13] appealing to Facebook for oh my gosh, there's no way anybody could be this
[05:14:15] there's no way anybody could be this accurate. Look at this information
[05:14:16] accurate. Look at this information that's easily found on Facebook. But I
[05:14:18] that's easily found on Facebook. But I would also say if it's true, of course
[05:14:21] would also say if it's true, of course it would be listed on Facebook.
[05:14:24] it would be listed on Facebook. How do you explain Can I just ask how do
[05:14:26] How do you explain Can I just ask how do you explain um Sarah and the 10th of
[05:14:31] you explain um Sarah and the 10th of >> June?
[05:14:31] >> June? >> June being called out, no other email
[05:14:34] >> June being called out, no other email existing to prove that there is a Sarah
[05:14:36] existing to prove that there is a Sarah Lamberty and Gary calling out the exact
[05:14:40] Lamberty and Gary calling out the exact name date of a Facebook page. It only
[05:14:44] name date of a Facebook page. It only had about 12 comments on there. I I just
[05:14:47] had about 12 comments on there. I I just How How do you explain that? Well, I'm
[05:14:49] How How do you explain that? Well, I'm in the fortunate position that I don't
[05:14:51] in the fortunate position that I don't really need to explain it, Nathaniel,
[05:14:53] really need to explain it, Nathaniel, but I will tell you a story of something
[05:14:55] but I will tell you a story of something I saw that was astonishing and that Gary
[05:14:58] I saw that was astonishing and that Gary was ministering at a church I was
[05:15:00] was ministering at a church I was pastoring at.
[05:15:01] pastoring at. >> Well, Ellen, I want to stop you there
[05:15:03] >> Well, Ellen, I want to stop you there because this is actually the whole
[05:15:04] because this is actually the whole point. You know, earlier you were asked
[05:15:06] point. You know, earlier you were asked by Chris, "What evidence would you
[05:15:08] by Chris, "What evidence would you need?" And you you said, "That's a great
[05:15:10] need?" And you you said, "That's a great question. Hey, Mike, what evidence would
[05:15:11] question. Hey, Mike, what evidence would you need?" And you deferred back to me.
[05:15:13] you need?" And you deferred back to me. And and then now you're asked again,
[05:15:14] And and then now you're asked again, "What evidence would you need to confirm
[05:15:16] "What evidence would you need to confirm that Gary's guilty of the things he's
[05:15:17] that Gary's guilty of the things he's accused of?" and you're pivoting to what
[05:15:19] accused of?" and you're pivoting to what would I need to officially label him as
[05:15:21] would I need to officially label him as a false prophet given three tests that I
[05:15:23] a false prophet given three tests that I feel I've derived from the text of
[05:15:24] feel I've derived from the text of scripture and we're like we're just
[05:15:26] scripture and we're like we're just saying guilty not guilty like what would
[05:15:28] saying guilty not guilty like what would you need to show that he did this and
[05:15:29] you need to show that he did this and you're making it a much bigger claim so
[05:15:31] you're making it a much bigger claim so that it's harder to prove and then now
[05:15:33] that it's harder to prove and then now he says what would you do with this
[05:15:34] he says what would you do with this evidence and you go let me tell you a
[05:15:36] evidence and you go let me tell you a story of something that happened that
[05:15:36] story of something that happened that you guys weren't around to see that
[05:15:38] you guys weren't around to see that involve Gary and this is how we silence
[05:15:41] involve Gary and this is how we silence our own minds from from approaching and
[05:15:44] our own minds from from approaching and dealing with the facts that are before
[05:15:45] dealing with the facts that are before us and the facts before us are pretty
[05:15:48] us and the facts before us are pretty clear. Like it's pretty clear Gary's
[05:15:51] clear. Like it's pretty clear Gary's Gary's guilty like it's a reasonable
[05:15:54] Gary's guilty like it's a reasonable conclusion that he's guilty and that you
[05:15:55] conclusion that he's guilty and that you guys have been doing coverup culture for
[05:15:57] guys have been doing coverup culture for him for a long long time. And and these
[05:15:59] him for a long long time. And and these people who are on the call and even the
[05:16:01] people who are on the call and even the ones not on the call but who are wanting
[05:16:02] ones not on the call but who are wanting to be aware of the call right now like
[05:16:04] to be aware of the call right now like like Ben who's probably sleeping right
[05:16:06] like Ben who's probably sleeping right now. It's whatever o dark 30 um they're
[05:16:10] now. It's whatever o dark 30 um they're they're for no benefit of their own are
[05:16:13] they're for no benefit of their own are seeking to try to hold for the sake of
[05:16:15] seeking to try to hold for the sake of the integrity of the church hold Gary
[05:16:16] the integrity of the church hold Gary accountable. And it's and it's Allan and
[05:16:18] accountable. And it's and it's Allan and Peter that will not let that happen. And
[05:16:21] Peter that will not let that happen. And Gary sits here silent and makes you guys
[05:16:24] Gary sits here silent and makes you guys do it all for him. And it's it's it's
[05:16:27] do it all for him. And it's it's it's it's
[05:16:29] it's an atrocity. It's an absolute atrocity.
[05:16:31] an atrocity. It's an absolute atrocity. >> I've answered I've answered when you've
[05:16:33] >> I've answered I've answered when you've asked me questions. I have
[05:16:34] asked me questions. I have >> you've answered with I don't know. I
[05:16:36] >> you've answered with I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
[05:16:38] don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's your that's your answer to
[05:16:39] That's your that's your answer to everything.
[05:16:41] everything. >> And then and maybe it's a conspiracy.
[05:16:42] >> And then and maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe it's a massive like long
[05:16:45] Maybe it's a massive like long conspiracy where someone created an
[05:16:46] conspiracy where someone created an email account, they hacked me, they made
[05:16:48] email account, they hacked me, they made it look like it was part connected with
[05:16:50] it look like it was part connected with me, then they then they made this this
[05:16:52] me, then they then they made this this uh Sarah Lamberty email and they sent it
[05:16:54] uh Sarah Lamberty email and they sent it out that would have initially to most
[05:16:57] out that would have initially to most people would have just defended you. But
[05:16:59] people would have just defended you. But because people decided to follow it up,
[05:17:01] because people decided to follow it up, then it made you look bad and that was
[05:17:03] then it made you look bad and that was part of like a big scheme. And of
[05:17:04] part of like a big scheme. And of course, you got hacked. So, you know,
[05:17:07] course, you got hacked. So, you know, that can't be traced.
[05:17:09] that can't be traced. Come on. But it can because I've got the
[05:17:11] Come on. But it can because I've got the screenshots that I was hacked, Mike. And
[05:17:14] screenshots that I was hacked, Mike. And and again, I go back to how can I send
[05:17:17] and again, I go back to how can I send up an email and send it when I'm at
[05:17:19] up an email and send it when I'm at dinner with people at 8:50. And then
[05:17:21] dinner with people at 8:50. And then another email was sent from Glory City
[05:17:23] another email was sent from Glory City that changed the time stamp on it.
[05:17:25] that changed the time stamp on it. >> Is your wife capable of sending an
[05:17:27] >> Is your wife capable of sending an email?
[05:17:30] >> I am very capable of sending
[05:17:32] >> I am very capable of sending >> And you weren't there. So that that's
[05:17:34] >> And you weren't there. So that that's not an alibi.
[05:17:36] not an alibi. >> I was very sick. I was pregnant with
[05:17:38] >> I was very sick. I was pregnant with Emma.
[05:17:40] Emma. And so again, we peel back that's why
[05:17:42] And so again, we peel back that's why that's why Peter in his position wanted
[05:17:46] that's why Peter in his position wanted um the forensic evidence because again
[05:17:49] um the forensic evidence because again it's it's this place and I will I will
[05:17:51] it's it's this place and I will I will hold to I did not data mine and I did
[05:17:55] hold to I did not data mine and I did not look up um events things and stuff
[05:17:58] not look up um events things and stuff with I did I don't need to do that and
[05:18:00] with I did I don't need to do that and again I appeal to the place where you
[05:18:03] again I appeal to the place where you labeling me the same as Shawn Boltz.
[05:18:05] labeling me the same as Shawn Boltz. Yes, we were friends for a season, but
[05:18:08] Yes, we were friends for a season, but when when questionable practices of his
[05:18:11] when when questionable practices of his prophetic ministry, particularly with
[05:18:13] prophetic ministry, particularly with the marriage stuff, which again is out
[05:18:16] the marriage stuff, which again is out of prophetic protocol,
[05:18:18] of prophetic protocol, >> we we took him aside and said, "Sean,
[05:18:20] >> we we took him aside and said, "Sean, you can't do that." And then he
[05:18:21] you can't do that." And then he contacted us and wanted us to do a whole
[05:18:24] contacted us and wanted us to do a whole session on words of knowledge. And I
[05:18:27] session on words of knowledge. And I said, "Sean, I can't do that. I'm happy
[05:18:29] said, "Sean, I can't do that. I'm happy I'm happy to do a session on on
[05:18:31] I'm happy to do a session on on boundaries and protocol, but we're not
[05:18:33] boundaries and protocol, but we're not doing words of knowledge." And from that
[05:18:35] doing words of knowledge." And from that point he he cut us out cut us out of his
[05:18:39] point he he cut us out cut us out of his >> um can I can I ask a couple of questions
[05:18:43] >> um can I can I ask a couple of questions >> and and again try to appeal to him try
[05:18:45] >> and and again try to appeal to him try to
[05:18:47] to >> Sorry I've got a bit of lag here. Can I
[05:18:49] >> Sorry I've got a bit of lag here. Can I ask you some questions Gary?
[05:18:53] ask you some questions Gary? >> Absolutely.
[05:18:56] >> Absolutely. >> Um so at one point you mentioned that
[05:18:58] >> Um so at one point you mentioned that you never tried to paint anyone as like
[05:19:00] you never tried to paint anyone as like being false accusers. Is that Did I hear
[05:19:04] being false accusers. Is that Did I hear that right? Or are you saying that you
[05:19:06] that right? Or are you saying that you never went out to try to paint Nathaniel
[05:19:09] never went out to try to paint Nathaniel and Haley as being false?
[05:19:13] >> I never mentioned names.
[05:19:17] >> I never mentioned names. >> You never mentioned names. But you you
[05:19:19] >> You never mentioned names. But you you were So are you saying that you you
[05:19:23] were So are you saying that you you mentioned earlier, but I'm not sure if I
[05:19:24] mentioned earlier, but I'm not sure if I heard you that you said something about
[05:19:26] heard you that you said something about I never painted anyone as a false any of
[05:19:29] I never painted anyone as a false any of this as a false allegation. I've only
[05:19:31] this as a false allegation. I've only tried to be open and willing, submit
[05:19:33] tried to be open and willing, submit devices. I'm never saying anyone's
[05:19:36] devices. I'm never saying anyone's making false claims or did I mishar that
[05:19:39] making false claims or did I mishar that or
[05:19:42] or >> I didn't say that.
[05:19:44] >> I didn't say that. >> I said
[05:19:46] >> I said >> um the other question about this I never
[05:19:48] >> um the other question about this I never I never I never mention names.
[05:19:51] I never I never mention names. >> Well, you know what, Chris, can we come
[05:19:53] >> Well, you know what, Chris, can we come back to your question in a second?
[05:19:55] back to your question in a second? >> Yeah.
[05:19:55] >> Yeah. >> Pretend the people just knew who you
[05:19:57] >> Pretend the people just knew who you were talking about. What did you imply
[05:19:59] were talking about. What did you imply about Nathan or Nathaniel, sorry, and
[05:20:01] about Nathan or Nathaniel, sorry, and others, Haley or others, Ben, even
[05:20:05] others, Haley or others, Ben, even though you didn't use their names, you
[05:20:06] though you didn't use their names, you keep saying I didn't mention names, but
[05:20:08] keep saying I didn't mention names, but if I was to to get a hold of a pastor
[05:20:10] if I was to to get a hold of a pastor who you've talked to privately about all
[05:20:12] who you've talked to privately about all this stuff and say, "What did he tell
[05:20:13] this stuff and say, "What did he tell you about these these individuals who he
[05:20:15] you about these these individuals who he didn't name?" What would that be?
[05:20:20] didn't name?" What would that be? >> Well, it's it's clear as when when
[05:20:22] >> Well, it's it's clear as when when Katherine came to me with the the
[05:20:24] Katherine came to me with the the accusation, I said, "Who who who brought
[05:20:26] accusation, I said, "Who who who brought the accusation?
[05:20:28] the accusation? And initially she she wouldn't say it. I
[05:20:30] And initially she she wouldn't say it. I said I'm I'm happy to meet these people.
[05:20:32] said I'm I'm happy to meet these people. I'm I'm open to meet them and would love
[05:20:33] I'm I'm open to meet them and would love to meet them. And I did meet them. And
[05:20:36] to meet them. And I did meet them. And and again I didn't see in that meeting
[05:20:40] and again I didn't see in that meeting um attack or hostility or stuff like
[05:20:43] um attack or hostility or stuff like that because I didn't posture myself as
[05:20:46] that because I didn't posture myself as hostile. I postured myself in a way of
[05:20:49] hostile. I postured myself in a way of just to discover why they did what they
[05:20:52] just to discover why they did what they did. and and Mike, you can paint it as
[05:20:54] did. and and Mike, you can paint it as righteous and and stuff like that, but
[05:20:56] righteous and and stuff like that, but it's it's it's unrighteous behavior. And
[05:21:00] it's it's it's unrighteous behavior. And I asked the question and wanted to
[05:21:02] I asked the question and wanted to discover that. And
[05:21:04] discover that. And >> what was uneous in the dialogue?
[05:21:07] >> what was uneous in the dialogue? >> Who asked the question?
[05:21:08] >> Who asked the question? >> Sorry. What was unrighteous behavior?
[05:21:11] >> Sorry. What was unrighteous behavior? >> Setting up a fake Facebook page.
[05:21:14] >> Setting up a fake Facebook page. Is it unrighteous when when u police do
[05:21:18] Is it unrighteous when when u police do a sting or they they catch a drug dealer
[05:21:21] a sting or they they catch a drug dealer because they set up a fake drug
[05:21:24] because they set up a fake drug purchase?
[05:21:25] purchase? >> We we're back and for on on on biblical
[05:21:29] >> We we're back and for on on on biblical versus
[05:21:30] versus uh you know mammon and so we're you know
[05:21:33] uh you know mammon and so we're you know again we we have to be clear. Are we
[05:21:35] again we we have to be clear. Are we talking biblical here or or we talking
[05:21:38] talking biblical here or or we talking secular? Because again,
[05:21:40] secular? Because again, >> the only morality I'm ever talking about
[05:21:42] >> the only morality I'm ever talking about is real morality,
[05:21:44] is real morality, >> which is biblical morality.
[05:21:47] >> which is biblical morality. >> Mhm. Was it was it unas was it
[05:21:49] >> Mhm. Was it was it unas was it unbiblical when Hagar sent the spies out
[05:21:53] unbiblical when Hagar sent the spies out biblical morality or secular morality?
[05:21:56] biblical morality or secular morality? >> There's only one morality. I don't know
[05:21:57] >> There's only one morality. I don't know what you're talking about. So, I just
[05:21:59] what you're talking about. So, I just asked you, is it immoral when police set
[05:22:02] asked you, is it immoral when police set up a sting operation?
[05:22:07] So, we're we're outside the church or
[05:22:09] So, we're we're outside the church or inside the church. That's why I'm trying
[05:22:10] inside the church. That's why I'm trying to
[05:22:12] to differentiate what we're talking because
[05:22:14] differentiate what we're talking because there's there's two different realities.
[05:22:15] there's there's two different realities. >> Just be clear with your maybe your
[05:22:16] >> Just be clear with your maybe your answer is if you're not if you're not in
[05:22:17] answer is if you're not if you're not in the church, you can do that, but if
[05:22:18] the church, you can do that, but if you're in the church, you can't. Maybe
[05:22:19] you're in the church, you can't. Maybe that's your answer. I just wanted to
[05:22:20] that's your answer. I just wanted to know what your thought is here. So, you
[05:22:22] know what your thought is here. So, you understand the accusation.
[05:22:23] understand the accusation. >> I follow you follow we follow, you know,
[05:22:26] >> I follow you follow we follow, you know, biblical precedents and and there's
[05:22:28] biblical precedents and and there's biblical truths we hold to.
[05:22:30] biblical truths we hold to. >> Would you agree? When the when the
[05:22:31] >> Would you agree? When the when the church in China meets inside like a corn
[05:22:33] church in China meets inside like a corn field so that they won't be attacked,
[05:22:36] field so that they won't be attacked, they're in the church and they're
[05:22:37] they're in the church and they're deceiving people about whether they are
[05:22:38] deceiving people about whether they are meeting and what they're meeting for. Is
[05:22:40] meeting and what they're meeting for. Is that is that biblical or unbiblical?
[05:22:43] that is that biblical or unbiblical? >> Why are they deceiving people?
[05:22:45] >> Why are they deceiving people? >> So they won't be persecuted.
[05:22:50] >> It's a way of looking at that.
[05:22:53] >> It's a way of looking at that. >> Yeah. No, she was right. Haley's a hero.
[05:22:56] >> Yeah. No, she was right. Haley's a hero. >> Okay.
[05:22:57] >> Okay. >> Um I had another question.
[05:23:00] >> Um I had another question. That's okay.
[05:23:00] That's okay. >> Yeah. You don't like it because you got
[05:23:01] >> Yeah. You don't like it because you got caught, Gary. It's obvious, man. Come
[05:23:02] caught, Gary. It's obvious, man. Come on.
[05:23:04] on. >> Sorry, Chris. Back to you.
[05:23:05] >> Sorry, Chris. Back to you. >> No, you're right. We'll leave the the
[05:23:08] >> No, you're right. We'll leave the the false uh painting people as false. That
[05:23:10] false uh painting people as false. That That's okay. Um, so Nathaniel and Haley
[05:23:14] That's okay. Um, so Nathaniel and Haley apologized to you probably days later. I
[05:23:17] apologized to you probably days later. I would say maybe 3 4 days later on the
[05:23:19] would say maybe 3 4 days later on the phone. And immediately after that, you
[05:23:23] phone. And immediately after that, you were on the phone to Pastor Katherine,
[05:23:26] were on the phone to Pastor Katherine, and you had one request, which was that
[05:23:29] and you had one request, which was that they delete the Glory City Church
[05:23:32] they delete the Glory City Church comment of you appearing at Glory City
[05:23:36] comment of you appearing at Glory City Church that had that fake Facebook
[05:23:39] Church that had that fake Facebook person saying, "I can't wait to be
[05:23:41] person saying, "I can't wait to be there." That was your only request. Make
[05:23:45] there." That was your only request. Make sure you get rid of that.
[05:23:47] sure you get rid of that. I'm just wondering if you have nothing
[05:23:49] I'm just wondering if you have nothing to hide and you got this genuinely from
[05:23:51] to hide and you got this genuinely from the Holy Spirit, why would that be your
[05:23:54] the Holy Spirit, why would that be your your request? Why would you care whether
[05:23:57] your request? Why would you care whether or not uh Glory City or some page said,
[05:24:00] or not uh Glory City or some page said, "Hey, I'm excited to come." Why did you
[05:24:03] "Hey, I'm excited to come." Why did you make that request?
[05:24:05] make that request? >> I don't remember making that request,
[05:24:07] >> I don't remember making that request, Chris.
[05:24:09] Chris. >> You don't?
[05:24:11] >> You don't? >> No, it was 10 years ago. I don't
[05:24:13] >> No, it was 10 years ago. I don't remember that. I don't even remember
[05:24:14] remember that. I don't even remember that conversation. Yeah. Well, there
[05:24:16] that conversation. Yeah. Well, there there were three people within earshot
[05:24:18] there were three people within earshot of that and uh subsequently that was
[05:24:20] of that and uh subsequently that was deleted. So, I just found that a a very
[05:24:24] deleted. So, I just found that a a very interesting request, but yeah, you you
[05:24:26] interesting request, but yeah, you you have no recollection.
[05:24:28] have no recollection. >> If I if I was to summize it, it would
[05:24:30] >> If I if I was to summize it, it would would be probably to cover Nathaniel and
[05:24:33] would be probably to cover Nathaniel and and Haley because they
[05:24:35] and Haley because they >> cover them.
[05:24:37] >> cover them. >> Yeah. because that that was my heart and
[05:24:39] >> Yeah. because that that was my heart and and and again whether they agree or
[05:24:41] and and again whether they agree or disagree my posture in that meeting
[05:24:44] disagree my posture in that meeting wasn't one of accusation but was one of
[05:24:46] wasn't one of accusation but was one of care and that's why I didn't deflect I
[05:24:49] care and that's why I didn't deflect I didn't defend I just wanted to discover
[05:24:51] didn't defend I just wanted to discover what was going on for them at one point
[05:24:54] what was going on for them at one point in that meeting when when um I asked
[05:24:59] in that meeting when when um I asked Nathaniel a question about it about you
[05:25:01] Nathaniel a question about it about you know whether it was the only one he
[05:25:03] know whether it was the only one he turned around and said to Katherine you
[05:25:06] turned around and said to Katherine you told us to do And at that point,
[05:25:08] told us to do And at that point, Katherine shot back and attacked
[05:25:11] Katherine shot back and attacked Nathaniel and in that in that place. And
[05:25:15] Nathaniel and in that in that place. And so cuz she denied she she said she
[05:25:17] so cuz she denied she she said she didn't do that. And so again, if there
[05:25:20] didn't do that. And so again, if there was hostility in that meeting, the only
[05:25:23] was hostility in that meeting, the only hostility came from Katherine when
[05:25:25] hostility came from Katherine when Nathaniel said that she that she told
[05:25:28] Nathaniel said that she that she told them to do it.
[05:25:29] them to do it. >> This happened about 4 days after that
[05:25:31] >> This happened about 4 days after that meeting on a phone call. It was an
[05:25:33] meeting on a phone call. It was an apology from from Nathaniel. Um, but
[05:25:36] apology from from Nathaniel. Um, but yeah, you don't remember?
[05:25:38] yeah, you don't remember? >> No.
[05:25:38] >> No. >> Okay. Um,
[05:25:39] >> Okay. Um, >> and I'll just I'll just say as well that
[05:25:41] >> and I'll just I'll just say as well that I imagine both Katherine and I would
[05:25:43] I imagine both Katherine and I would disagree with that that that that played
[05:25:45] disagree with that that that that played out like that.
[05:25:50] >> Yeah,
[05:25:51] >> Yeah, >> guys, might I suggest that we land this
[05:25:53] >> guys, might I suggest that we land this plane because right now it feels like
[05:25:56] plane because right now it feels like >> circling to land,
[05:25:58] >> circling to land, >> right?
[05:25:59] >> right? >> Um, I listen, sorry, go ahead. if
[05:26:01] >> Um, I listen, sorry, go ahead. if anybody has any final things they'll
[05:26:02] anybody has any final things they'll share and then I'll and then I'll wrap
[05:26:03] share and then I'll and then I'll wrap it up and we'll take a few minutes and
[05:26:04] it up and we'll take a few minutes and let everybody if they have anything they
[05:26:06] let everybody if they have anything they want to say still.
[05:26:07] want to say still. >> Yeah, I did. Um so you put in uh your
[05:26:10] >> Yeah, I did. Um so you put in uh your public statement on your blog um that
[05:26:13] public statement on your blog um that you you didn't have any um sexual
[05:26:16] you you didn't have any um sexual relations with this this person um
[05:26:19] relations with this this person um publicly you admitted what was and
[05:26:21] publicly you admitted what was and wasn't to take place. That's still your
[05:26:24] wasn't to take place. That's still your position, is it? That you you you you
[05:26:26] position, is it? That you you you you didn't have an like, let's say an allout
[05:26:28] didn't have an like, let's say an allout sexual affair.
[05:26:33] >> What? What? Sorry, Chris. What are we
[05:26:34] >> What? What? Sorry, Chris. What are we talking about?
[05:26:35] talking about? >> Just on your your blog post. Um, it was
[05:26:39] >> Just on your your blog post. Um, it was interesting to be honest with you
[05:26:40] interesting to be honest with you because it was exactly the same as your
[05:26:43] because it was exactly the same as your Facebook um post in relation to the GGC
[05:26:47] Facebook um post in relation to the GGC allegations. Uh, the the start read the
[05:26:49] allegations. Uh, the the start read the same. So, the first few times I went to
[05:26:51] same. So, the first few times I went to read it, I I felt like I'd already read
[05:26:53] read it, I I felt like I'd already read this. I didn't need to continue. But at
[05:26:55] this. I didn't need to continue. But at the end, you acknowledged that there was
[05:26:56] the end, you acknowledged that there was some uh uh sexual impropriy, although
[05:27:01] some uh uh sexual impropriy, although there wasn't a a physical sexual line
[05:27:03] there wasn't a a physical sexual line that was crossed. Is that that's still
[05:27:06] that was crossed. Is that that's still your
[05:27:06] your >> Yeah, absolutely. We never had sex.
[05:27:09] >> Yeah, absolutely. We never had sex. >> Yep. Okay. And then Peter, when uh Dan
[05:27:12] >> Yep. Okay. And then Peter, when uh Dan called you and just asked you if you
[05:27:14] called you and just asked you if you were aware of the allegations, your
[05:27:16] were aware of the allegations, your first response to him was no. Is that
[05:27:18] first response to him was no. Is that correct?
[05:27:21] correct? Uh my first response to him was I was
[05:27:23] Uh my first response to him was I was driving my car. I was in traffic. I was
[05:27:26] driving my car. I was in traffic. I was trying to understand what it was that he
[05:27:28] trying to understand what it was that he was talking to. And as we went along in
[05:27:30] was talking to. And as we went along in the conversation, I realized what he was
[05:27:33] the conversation, I realized what he was talking about.
[05:27:35] talking about. >> So it was all So you your first response
[05:27:36] >> So it was all So you your first response was no not I hadn't heard of that or I
[05:27:39] was no not I hadn't heard of that or I wasn't aware of that.
[05:27:42] wasn't aware of that. My first response was that I wasn't
[05:27:43] My first response was that I wasn't aware of Gary being accused of having a
[05:27:48] aware of Gary being accused of having a sexual relationship with someone.
[05:27:51] sexual relationship with someone. >> You weren't aware of Gary being accused
[05:27:54] >> You weren't aware of Gary being accused of having a sexual relationship.
[05:27:59] of having a sexual relationship. >> Not quite sure where we not quite sure
[05:28:01] >> Not quite sure where we not quite sure what you're reaching for here, Chris.
[05:28:02] what you're reaching for here, Chris. What What Tell me what you're trying to
[05:28:04] What What Tell me what you're trying to reach for. Well, it it to me
[05:28:09] reach for. Well, it it to me there was a call that was made and I'm
[05:28:10] there was a call that was made and I'm just trying to get clarity from from you
[05:28:13] just trying to get clarity from from you without hearsay. I guess that was asking
[05:28:16] without hearsay. I guess that was asking you if you were aware of that situation
[05:28:19] you if you were aware of that situation and your first response being no, I
[05:28:21] and your first response being no, I wasn't aware.
[05:28:23] wasn't aware. >> Well, I I think we need to go uh have
[05:28:26] >> Well, I I think we need to go uh have Daniel either communicate uh on the text
[05:28:30] Daniel either communicate uh on the text or actually join the conversation. Um,
[05:28:33] or actually join the conversation. Um, I' I'd need to revisit exactly what the
[05:28:36] I' I'd need to revisit exactly what the question was. But I I do recall that
[05:28:38] question was. But I I do recall that after pulling into my garage and
[05:28:41] after pulling into my garage and realizing, oh, that's what he's talking
[05:28:43] realizing, oh, that's what he's talking about. Um, and so my what I heard Daniel
[05:28:47] about. Um, and so my what I heard Daniel saying to me was, "Are you aware that
[05:28:49] saying to me was, "Are you aware that Gary has had a sexual relationship with
[05:28:51] Gary has had a sexual relationship with someone?" And I said, "No, I'm not." But
[05:28:54] someone?" And I said, "No, I'm not." But then when I pulled into the garage, I I
[05:28:56] then when I pulled into the garage, I I went, "Oh, he's probably referring to
[05:28:59] went, "Oh, he's probably referring to the sexually inappropriate uh
[05:29:01] the sexually inappropriate uh relationship that has um that Gary's
[05:29:05] relationship that has um that Gary's talked to me about." So So that's that's
[05:29:07] talked to me about." So So that's that's the best answer I can give to you,
[05:29:08] the best answer I can give to you, Chris. So I'm I'm not
[05:29:11] Chris. So I'm I'm not >> Okay. Yeah. Um because there were
[05:29:15] >> Okay. Yeah. Um because there were screenshots that were taken by the uh uh
[05:29:19] screenshots that were taken by the uh uh the person that uh I guess was the
[05:29:21] the person that uh I guess was the husband at the time and all their family
[05:29:24] husband at the time and all their family uh can testify. I think there was about
[05:29:26] uh can testify. I think there was about eight of them uh that's have a text
[05:29:29] eight of them uh that's have a text message that said or they they they read
[05:29:32] message that said or they they they read from Gary
[05:29:35] from Gary basically and sorry to be graphic but I
[05:29:37] basically and sorry to be graphic but I can't wait to sleep with you again was
[05:29:40] can't wait to sleep with you again was the the text. I mean, this divorce
[05:29:42] the the text. I mean, this divorce happened over this situation and so I'm
[05:29:45] happened over this situation and so I'm just feeling like maybe the public
[05:29:46] just feeling like maybe the public statement wasn't the whole story. Uh, if
[05:29:49] statement wasn't the whole story. Uh, if there was something like that, can you
[05:29:50] there was something like that, can you speak to that uh Gary about sending that
[05:29:53] speak to that uh Gary about sending that uh specific text message?
[05:29:56] uh specific text message? >> Yeah, I I never slept with Denise and
[05:29:59] >> Yeah, I I never slept with Denise and and Hannah can say that we never had sex
[05:30:03] and Hannah can say that we never had sex and without being graphic, there wasn't
[05:30:06] and without being graphic, there wasn't when we were together, there wasn't an
[05:30:08] when we were together, there wasn't an arousal on my part. And so yeah, I never
[05:30:12] arousal on my part. And so yeah, I never never slept with him.
[05:30:14] never slept with him. >> From the husband though, they said that
[05:30:16] >> From the husband though, they said that they saw the message from you about
[05:30:19] they saw the message from you about sleeping together again and about being
[05:30:21] sleeping together again and about being in the shower. There was a bunch of them
[05:30:24] in the shower. There was a bunch of them that seemed to conote the the opposite
[05:30:26] that seemed to conote the the opposite story.
[05:30:29] >> I had a shower, never had a shower. The
[05:30:32] >> I had a shower, never had a shower. The only the only time was that we connected
[05:30:35] only the only time was that we connected was was probably three times when I was
[05:30:39] was was probably three times when I was in Wales, but that never never had sex.
[05:30:44] in Wales, but that never never had sex. >> Okay. Uh I think that's all my questions
[05:30:47] >> Okay. Uh I think that's all my questions for now. Thanks, guys.
[05:30:51] >> Anybody else?
[05:31:05] Um, Daniel has a question.
[05:31:09] Um, Daniel has a question. >> Sorry, Daniel has a question he's asking
[05:31:10] >> Sorry, Daniel has a question he's asking there. He says, "Why was Gary allowed to
[05:31:12] there. He says, "Why was Gary allowed to continue to minister?"
[05:31:17] I think we shared that in 2008 um when I
[05:31:20] I think we shared that in 2008 um when I admitted
[05:31:22] admitted um when I admitted what I had done to
[05:31:26] um when I admitted what I had done to Sarah
[05:31:27] Sarah and then subsequently called our
[05:31:30] and then subsequently called our oversight at that time when we were in
[05:31:32] oversight at that time when we were in America um they gave us the worst advice
[05:31:36] America um they gave us the worst advice um possible was don't talk about it um
[05:31:40] um possible was don't talk about it um >> forgive
[05:31:41] >> forgive >> forgive and move on you know it's
[05:31:43] >> forgive and move on you know it's between you and your wife there's
[05:31:44] between you and your wife there's forgiveness and move on. And and we
[05:31:46] forgiveness and move on. And and we subsequently after 6 months realized
[05:31:49] subsequently after 6 months realized that was not the best advice. And so we
[05:31:53] that was not the best advice. And so we um went to RTF um went and sought
[05:31:56] um went to RTF um went and sought ministry and also as well um jumped into
[05:32:00] ministry and also as well um jumped into counseling together in
[05:32:03] counseling together in >> No way. That was afterwards.
[05:32:06] >> No way. That was afterwards. >> Sorry.
[05:32:06] >> Sorry. >> Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
[05:32:07] >> Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. >> We we did try to get help as best we
[05:32:10] >> We we did try to get help as best we have, but we were very young.
[05:32:11] have, but we were very young. >> Yeah. and
[05:32:12] >> Yeah. and >> 20
[05:32:13] >> 20 >> 22
[05:32:14] >> 22 >> didn't have any tools unfortunately and
[05:32:17] >> didn't have any tools unfortunately and >> it was unfortunately a cover up. If you
[05:32:19] >> it was unfortunately a cover up. If you want to say there was a cover up that
[05:32:21] want to say there was a cover up that was a cover up.
[05:32:22] was a cover up. >> Um I I felt like I was silenced at the
[05:32:25] >> Um I I felt like I was silenced at the time as well.
[05:32:26] time as well. >> Um but after was it 2018 when you
[05:32:31] >> Um but after was it 2018 when you reconnected over Messenger? They were in
[05:32:33] reconnected over Messenger? They were in different countries. It was only like
[05:32:35] different countries. It was only like three weeks of messaging.
[05:32:37] three weeks of messaging. >> Highly inappropriate and it broke my
[05:32:39] >> Highly inappropriate and it broke my heart. I'm going to be honest.
[05:32:41] heart. I'm going to be honest. Um, but it actually gave us it was I'm
[05:32:44] Um, but it actually gave us it was I'm just speaking from a wife's perspective.
[05:32:46] just speaking from a wife's perspective. It was actually the best thing that ever
[05:32:48] It was actually the best thing that ever happened to us because we actually got
[05:32:50] happened to us because we actually got the help that we needed and we spent or
[05:32:54] the help that we needed and we spent or Gary spent nearly four years once we
[05:32:56] Gary spent nearly four years once we actually looked back at the and the
[05:32:58] actually looked back at the and the counseling and just and I I'm not
[05:33:02] counseling and just and I I'm not whitewashing and he doesn't whitewash
[05:33:04] whitewashing and he doesn't whitewash what he did. Um
[05:33:07] what he did. Um >> I sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh
[05:33:07] >> I sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh shbody in kind of
[05:33:08] sh sh sh sh sh sh sh shbody in kind of weekends. I shared it in Doha when I was
[05:33:11] weekends. I shared it in Doha when I was there with the church. Um
[05:33:13] there with the church. Um >> and at the time we canled all external
[05:33:16] >> and at the time we canled all external ministry. Um we were already halfway
[05:33:19] ministry. Um we were already halfway through SOP at the time. Um and the
[05:33:24] through SOP at the time. Um and the wisdom at the time was
[05:33:28] wisdom at the time was only finish this out. Um which I took on
[05:33:32] only finish this out. Um which I took on the lead role in that position. Um, and
[05:33:39] the lead role in that position. Um, and I guess for whatever reason, we can
[05:33:41] I guess for whatever reason, we can always split hairs off process and you
[05:33:44] always split hairs off process and you can always look back and go, "Yes, we
[05:33:46] can always look back and go, "Yes, we did it right. Yes, we did it wrong."
[05:33:48] did it right. Yes, we did it wrong." There's always objective
[05:33:50] There's always objective um responses in hindsight's always 2020.
[05:33:53] um responses in hindsight's always 2020. But Gary was
[05:33:55] But Gary was very much involved in that process. And
[05:33:58] very much involved in that process. And there was
[05:34:00] there was um
[05:34:02] um there was moments of pride, I'm not
[05:34:03] there was moments of pride, I'm not going to lie. But at the end of the day,
[05:34:06] going to lie. But at the end of the day, that pride was just there to cover the
[05:34:08] that pride was just there to cover the shame of what he had done. And he
[05:34:12] shame of what he had done. And he absolutely was repentant and kept to the
[05:34:16] absolutely was repentant and kept to the process exactly anything that I asked of
[05:34:18] process exactly anything that I asked of him. um anything Pete asked of him.
[05:34:22] him. um anything Pete asked of him. Allan and AJ were very much involved in
[05:34:24] Allan and AJ were very much involved in that process at the time. Um and then I
[05:34:27] that process at the time. Um and then I also had external help myself outside of
[05:34:30] also had external help myself outside of that time. So the reason why
[05:34:35] that time. So the reason why was the decision at that moment
[05:34:39] was the decision at that moment because he was responsive to the process
[05:34:42] because he was responsive to the process and it was very much a joint request.
[05:34:52] >> Okay. Um Daniel, if you wanted to follow
[05:34:55] >> Okay. Um Daniel, if you wanted to follow up with something, you're welcome to do
[05:34:56] up with something, you're welcome to do so. Um, I just want to open up again if
[05:35:00] so. Um, I just want to open up again if there's anybody else who has something
[05:35:00] there's anybody else who has something they want to share before I kind of
[05:35:02] they want to share before I kind of close us up. I have a couple things I
[05:35:03] close us up. I have a couple things I want to say.
[05:35:11] Peter, Alan, Gary,
[05:35:15] Peter, Alan, Gary, >> I'm all good, thank you.
[05:35:16] >> I'm all good, thank you. >> Yeah, I just appreciate everybody making
[05:35:18] >> Yeah, I just appreciate everybody making time for this. It wasn't easy to
[05:35:20] time for this. It wasn't easy to coordinate everybody's schedule. Um, I
[05:35:23] coordinate everybody's schedule. Um, I can totally understand where you're
[05:35:25] can totally understand where you're coming from. I I'm deeply sorry
[05:35:27] coming from. I I'm deeply sorry Nathaniel and Haley that you you
[05:35:29] Nathaniel and Haley that you you experienced flack for what you thought
[05:35:31] experienced flack for what you thought you were doing was the right thing.
[05:35:33] you were doing was the right thing. That's not a pleasant experience for
[05:35:35] That's not a pleasant experience for anybody. Um so thank you for creating
[05:35:38] anybody. Um so thank you for creating space to hear us out. We did request the
[05:35:41] space to hear us out. We did request the meeting that there was no need for you
[05:35:43] meeting that there was no need for you to do that but I'm grateful that you did
[05:35:45] to do that but I'm grateful that you did and I hope you got what you needed. Um
[05:35:48] and I hope you got what you needed. Um Mike.
[05:35:50] Mike. >> Yeah. And and I I would say that to
[05:35:52] >> Yeah. And and I I would say that to Nathaniel and Haley. I wasn't aware of
[05:35:55] Nathaniel and Haley. I wasn't aware of what you guys were walking through and
[05:35:57] what you guys were walking through and I'm always coming against you um in that
[05:36:00] I'm always coming against you um in that sort of space and so I'm I'm sorry that
[05:36:02] sort of space and so I'm I'm sorry that happened. Um that Yeah, I'm sorry.
[05:36:14] Um, I'm going to add just Daniel, you
[05:36:16] Um, I'm going to add just Daniel, you guys can see in the chat, he he
[05:36:19] guys can see in the chat, he he said, uh, if they knew above question,
[05:36:22] said, uh, if they knew above question, um, if they knew of his inappropriate
[05:36:24] um, if they knew of his inappropriate context, why
[05:36:26] context, why was he allowed to continue to minister?
[05:36:28] was he allowed to continue to minister? I'm not sure of other other context that
[05:36:30] I'm not sure of other other context that Daniel has around that. So, I'm just
[05:36:32] Daniel has around that. So, I'm just reading what he wrote. Is there anything
[05:36:34] reading what he wrote. Is there anything anyone wants to add to that?
[05:36:37] anyone wants to add to that? I think just what we put in the public
[05:36:38] I think just what we put in the public statement that all his external ministry
[05:36:41] statement that all his external ministry stopped
[05:36:43] stopped um and only taught within the the local
[05:36:46] um and only taught within the the local church uh the local school that they
[05:36:48] church uh the local school that they had. Um and then Pete at some point you
[05:36:53] had. Um and then Pete at some point you after a certain time of his
[05:36:56] after a certain time of his counseling
[05:36:58] counseling let him start traveling again. Is that
[05:37:00] let him start traveling again. Is that is that my correct understanding?
[05:37:02] is that my correct understanding? >> Yeah.
[05:37:02] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yep. What was the time period of
[05:37:05] >> Yeah. Yep. What was the time period of that if I can where he wasn't allowed to
[05:37:08] that if I can where he wasn't allowed to externally minister?
[05:37:10] externally minister? >> Uh I can't comment without any accuracy
[05:37:13] >> Uh I can't comment without any accuracy given the when it was in the past. So
[05:37:16] given the when it was in the past. So Gary and Sarah can you comment?
[05:37:18] Gary and Sarah can you comment? >> We may have mentioned that in the public
[05:37:20] >> We may have mentioned that in the public statement. Chris
[05:37:26] >> No, no, no. You got to remember Oh, hang
[05:37:28] >> No, no, no. You got to remember Oh, hang on.
[05:37:30] on. Again, I'm useless with time because
[05:37:32] Again, I'm useless with time because there was the initial thing that
[05:37:33] there was the initial thing that happened. When was that? 2008.
[05:37:36] happened. When was that? 2008. >> 8. Yeah.
[05:37:36] >> 8. Yeah. >> Yeah. We I mean, we knew none none of
[05:37:39] >> Yeah. We I mean, we knew none none of that until the 2018. I think we make a
[05:37:42] that until the 2018. I think we make a comment about that on the public
[05:37:43] comment about that on the public statement about the 2018
[05:37:45] statement about the 2018 uh thing. Chris,
[05:37:46] uh thing. Chris, >> I'm trying to scan it and it looks like
[05:37:48] >> I'm trying to scan it and it looks like you said um in 2018
[05:37:53] you said um in 2018 um and it doesn't doesn't give specific
[05:37:55] um and it doesn't doesn't give specific times. He
[05:37:58] times. He then began weekly counseling with a
[05:37:59] then began weekly counseling with a licensed psychologist. Da da da. During
[05:38:02] licensed psychologist. Da da da. During this time, Gary ceased all international
[05:38:03] this time, Gary ceased all international travel and reduced his ministry
[05:38:05] travel and reduced his ministry involvement to helping teach at their
[05:38:06] involvement to helping teach at their school while Sarah oversaw. In 2019, in
[05:38:10] school while Sarah oversaw. In 2019, in with Peter's supervision, Gary returned
[05:38:11] with Peter's supervision, Gary returned to limited national international
[05:38:13] to limited national international ministry. So, it would be some point in
[05:38:15] ministry. So, it would be some point in 2019 is the statement.
[05:38:18] 2019 is the statement. um as when he wouldn't have been as when
[05:38:20] um as when he wouldn't have been as when the the sort of restrictions on external
[05:38:23] the the sort of restrictions on external ministry would have been 2019.
[05:38:25] ministry would have been 2019. >> It would have been lifted at some point
[05:38:27] >> It would have been lifted at some point in 2019 and imposed at some point in
[05:38:29] in 2019 and imposed at some point in 2018. They don't give months or anything
[05:38:31] 2018. They don't give months or anything here.
[05:38:32] here. >> And then these prophetic meetings, these
[05:38:34] >> And then these prophetic meetings, these internal house um prophetic meetings you
[05:38:36] internal house um prophetic meetings you allowed to continue at, were they uh
[05:38:38] allowed to continue at, were they uh filmed or were they just totally
[05:38:41] filmed or were they just totally in-house? Not not not a live stream
[05:38:43] in-house? Not not not a live stream thing.
[05:38:45] thing. >> It wasn't a live stream. We didn't do,
[05:38:47] >> It wasn't a live stream. We didn't do, >> but we did do They're all
[05:38:49] >> but we did do They're all >> Oh, they're recording. Yeah, they're
[05:38:50] >> Oh, they're recording. Yeah, they're filmed, but they're not recorded.
[05:38:53] filmed, but they're not recorded. >> Yeah, because uh I believe you were
[05:38:55] >> Yeah, because uh I believe you were ministering at a church in December
[05:38:58] ministering at a church in December 2018. So, that's why I was confused if
[05:39:00] 2018. So, that's why I was confused if there was some sort of uh external
[05:39:02] there was some sort of uh external ministry cap as to why you
[05:39:05] ministry cap as to why you >> taking that would have been taking
[05:39:07] >> taking that would have been taking students for presetry
[05:39:10] students for presetry um to that. No, this was like a public
[05:39:12] um to that. No, this was like a public church meeting where you were
[05:39:14] church meeting where you were prophesying over somebody, I believe. I
[05:39:18] prophesying over somebody, I believe. I can uh try and track that down and I can
[05:39:19] can uh try and track that down and I can shoot it to you in a in an email, try
[05:39:22] shoot it to you in a in an email, try and follow up with that. Uh but it
[05:39:24] and follow up with that. Uh but it seemed to be right smack bang in the
[05:39:26] seemed to be right smack bang in the middle if it was at some point 2018 that
[05:39:28] middle if it was at some point 2018 that this restriction came on. uh
[05:39:33] this restriction came on. uh 2019.
[05:39:34] 2019. >> I think we talked about that cuz when we
[05:39:36] >> I think we talked about that cuz when we were writing this, you know, Gary was
[05:39:38] were writing this, you know, Gary was going through his Instagram to go, "Hey,
[05:39:40] going through his Instagram to go, "Hey, I'm trying to work out, you know, the
[05:39:41] I'm trying to work out, you know, the timing of all this cuz again, long time
[05:39:43] timing of all this cuz again, long time ago." And you did flag one thing and
[05:39:46] ago." And you did flag one thing and then I think it was a hub. You I don't
[05:39:49] then I think it was a hub. You I don't know if you're familiar with their
[05:39:50] know if you're familiar with their school of profits. I I've heard it
[05:39:52] school of profits. I I've heard it characterized as an at home meeting, but
[05:39:54] characterized as an at home meeting, but they had a school and there there's hubs
[05:39:57] they had a school and there there's hubs that their school uh operates in. And I
[05:40:00] that their school uh operates in. And I think in the context of that meeting and
[05:40:02] think in the context of that meeting and again you you'll work out Chris when you
[05:40:03] again you you'll work out Chris when you look at the timing because I think we
[05:40:05] look at the timing because I think we talked about that that oh wait there was
[05:40:07] talked about that that oh wait there was this trip why was I on that trip I think
[05:40:09] this trip why was I on that trip I think that was related to the school of profit
[05:40:12] that was related to the school of profit so it would fall under that remit of you
[05:40:14] so it would fall under that remit of you know reducing his travel to just teach
[05:40:16] know reducing his travel to just teach at their school. But
[05:40:25] >> all right. Well, um I'm I'm grateful for
[05:40:28] >> all right. Well, um I'm I'm grateful for everybody making the time to come out.
[05:40:29] everybody making the time to come out. This was hard for all of us with across
[05:40:31] This was hard for all of us with across all these countries to try to get
[05:40:32] all these countries to try to get schedules uh going and I'm grateful that
[05:40:35] schedules uh going and I'm grateful that everybody sat through even uh when I I
[05:40:39] everybody sat through even uh when I I choose to be intense
[05:40:41] choose to be intense for a good reason. I think um
[05:40:45] for a good reason. I think um as it stands uh my own assessment of it
[05:40:48] as it stands uh my own assessment of it is unchanged. Um and I imagine a lot of
[05:40:51] is unchanged. Um and I imagine a lot of people at this meeting your own
[05:40:52] people at this meeting your own assessment of the situation is
[05:40:53] assessment of the situation is unchanged. Uh what I did try to do is
[05:40:55] unchanged. Uh what I did try to do is create a public or I should say a
[05:40:58] create a public or I should say a permanent record of some specifics and
[05:41:01] permanent record of some specifics and some details. And um it's deeply
[05:41:06] some details. And um it's deeply disturbing that Peter is in any way
[05:41:08] disturbing that Peter is in any way involved with holding Gary accountable
[05:41:10] involved with holding Gary accountable and he should not be and you've you've
[05:41:13] and he should not be and you've you've misrepresented things many times
[05:41:15] misrepresented things many times repeatedly in this meeting and to others
[05:41:17] repeatedly in this meeting and to others and even recently about these issues and
[05:41:20] and even recently about these issues and whether you want to say that that you
[05:41:21] whether you want to say that that you know if you want to say well Mike you
[05:41:23] know if you want to say well Mike you can't go to his motives then fine how
[05:41:24] can't go to his motives then fine how about this whatever the reason is you're
[05:41:27] about this whatever the reason is you're not the guy if there's someone to hold
[05:41:29] not the guy if there's someone to hold this guy accountable it's not you Allan
[05:41:31] this guy accountable it's not you Allan I'm not sure if if you're the guy I if
[05:41:34] I'm not sure if if you're the guy I if if you have an actual true third party
[05:41:35] if you have an actual true third party independent investigation who can report
[05:41:38] independent investigation who can report without accountability to you guys then
[05:41:41] without accountability to you guys then you can try to move forward with that.
[05:41:42] you can try to move forward with that. But in my own assessment of things and I
[05:41:44] But in my own assessment of things and I think this is shared by a lot of people
[05:41:46] think this is shared by a lot of people outside of the circle of you guys right
[05:41:48] outside of the circle of you guys right here. I think this is Ben's view. My
[05:41:50] here. I think this is Ben's view. My understanding is that it's Daniel's view
[05:41:52] understanding is that it's Daniel's view that it's everybody on this call is that
[05:41:53] that it's everybody on this call is that the evidence is already overwhelming.
[05:41:55] the evidence is already overwhelming. There's already overwhelming convincing
[05:41:57] There's already overwhelming convincing evidence and if this was to go really
[05:42:00] evidence and if this was to go really wide public showing all the evidence,
[05:42:03] wide public showing all the evidence, you yourselves have acknowledged that
[05:42:04] you yourselves have acknowledged that objectively people are going to be like,
[05:42:05] objectively people are going to be like, "Yeah, he's guilty. Look at him." And
[05:42:08] "Yeah, he's guilty. Look at him." And it's it's it's just astonishing. I I
[05:42:12] it's it's it's just astonishing. I I think that what we're seeing
[05:42:14] think that what we're seeing is the same thing all over again where
[05:42:17] is the same thing all over again where you're just you're just dug in too much
[05:42:18] you're just you're just dug in too much and you just can't quit. And so we tell
[05:42:21] and you just can't quit. And so we tell ourselves convenient truths, convenient
[05:42:22] ourselves convenient truths, convenient lies sometimes to try to keep on going
[05:42:24] lies sometimes to try to keep on going and pushing on. But anyways, I I
[05:42:28] and pushing on. But anyways, I I appreciate especially Nathaniel, Haley,
[05:42:32] appreciate especially Nathaniel, Haley, Chris, Daniel. Um I appreciate you guys
[05:42:35] Chris, Daniel. Um I appreciate you guys and Ben too sticking his neck out and
[05:42:38] and Ben too sticking his neck out and getting swatted for it. Um I appreciate
[05:42:40] getting swatted for it. Um I appreciate that. But this is absolutely not
[05:42:43] that. But this is absolutely not resolved in any way because the buck
[05:42:45] resolved in any way because the buck stops with Peter McHugh and and with
[05:42:48] stops with Peter McHugh and and with Allen and it's the people who are
[05:42:51] Allen and it's the people who are supposed to hold Gary accountable and
[05:42:52] supposed to hold Gary accountable and you guys tell yourselves cute stories
[05:42:54] you guys tell yourselves cute stories about these things instead of dealing
[05:42:55] about these things instead of dealing with the truth. That's my honest opinion
[05:42:57] with the truth. That's my honest opinion and I think that um if you were to even
[05:42:59] and I think that um if you were to even attempt to to seriously investigate
[05:43:01] attempt to to seriously investigate Gary, you would never have written um we
[05:43:04] Gary, you would never have written um we have not received additional concerns
[05:43:05] have not received additional concerns about the integrity of Gary's ministry
[05:43:07] about the integrity of Gary's ministry in 10 years. That's not it's not
[05:43:10] in 10 years. That's not it's not factually true.
[05:43:11] factually true. How do I even know about concerns you've
[05:43:13] How do I even know about concerns you've received? I'm not even there. I haven't
[05:43:15] received? I'm not even there. I haven't even asked people for information just
[05:43:17] even asked people for information just comes, you know, and it's and it wasn't
[05:43:20] comes, you know, and it's and it wasn't just one or two. There's a the whole
[05:43:23] just one or two. There's a the whole it's a whole another thing to get into.
[05:43:24] it's a whole another thing to get into. The whole church where you prophesied
[05:43:26] The whole church where you prophesied about it and ends up being this really
[05:43:27] about it and ends up being this really abusive scenario and they used your
[05:43:29] abusive scenario and they used your prophecy to help prop up this leader. Um
[05:43:32] prophecy to help prop up this leader. Um anyway, so you guys, I'm going to I'll
[05:43:34] anyway, so you guys, I'm going to I'll end our meeting. I'm grateful for
[05:43:36] end our meeting. I'm grateful for everybody who being part of it and at
[05:43:39] everybody who being part of it and at the same time um
[05:43:42] the same time um I'm going to pray about what what to do
[05:43:43] I'm going to pray about what what to do next. I was just going to do a po a post
[05:43:45] next. I was just going to do a po a post on social media and leave it alone and
[05:43:46] on social media and leave it alone and hope that that the ball would roll cuz
[05:43:47] hope that that the ball would roll cuz there was overwhelming evidence and that
[05:43:49] there was overwhelming evidence and that just the leaders just need to be public
[05:43:50] just the leaders just need to be public and speak about it. But since then I
[05:43:52] and speak about it. But since then I don't know if anybody's publicly spoken
[05:43:53] don't know if anybody's publicly spoken about it. It seems like nobody has as
[05:43:56] about it. It seems like nobody has as far as leaders like leaders go. Has
[05:43:58] far as leaders like leaders go. Has anybody?
[05:44:01] GGC put out a statement basically saying
[05:44:04] GGC put out a statement basically saying uh we don't know this sort of stuff has
[05:44:07] uh we don't know this sort of stuff has come to us and this sort of stuff has
[05:44:09] come to us and this sort of stuff has come to us and we don't have any formal
[05:44:11] come to us and we don't have any formal conclusion but you know what we know
[05:44:14] conclusion but you know what we know sort of thing it's the only
[05:44:17] sort of thing it's the only >> only movement
[05:44:18] >> only movement >> well the the the accountability should
[05:44:20] >> well the the the accountability should come from with from within you guys
[05:44:21] come from with from within you guys you're you're his leaders you're the
[05:44:23] you're you're his leaders you're the guys he's looking to to help them out
[05:44:24] guys he's looking to to help them out and hold them accountable it should come
[05:44:25] and hold them accountable it should come from there and if it won't come from
[05:44:26] from there and if it won't come from there then I say it should come from
[05:44:28] there then I say it should come from anywhere as Christians because the
[05:44:29] anywhere as Christians because the church cannot cannot bear up under the
[05:44:31] church cannot cannot bear up under the weight of fake prophecy. It just can't.
[05:44:35] weight of fake prophecy. It just can't. So, I guess that'll end our meeting
[05:44:37] So, I guess that'll end our meeting then. So, thank you guys.
[05:44:39] then. So, thank you guys. >> Thanks, guys.
[05:44:40] >> Thanks, guys. >> Thank you. Thank you.
[05:44:43] >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thanks everyone. Thanks.
[05:44:52] >> Editor Mike here for my very last time
[05:44:54] >> Editor Mike here for my very last time and just want to say this video would
[05:44:55] and just want to say this video would not have been needed if leaders had just
[05:44:56] not have been needed if leaders had just done the right thing. And that is the
[05:44:58] done the right thing. And that is the point of this video. It's peacemeal work
[05:45:00] point of this video. It's peacemeal work if I target one guy after another after
[05:45:02] if I target one guy after another after another and just kind of try to take
[05:45:04] another and just kind of try to take down one. No, what I need to do
[05:45:06] down one. No, what I need to do hopefully, God willing, is help be part
[05:45:08] hopefully, God willing, is help be part of a larger movement where tons and tons
[05:45:10] of a larger movement where tons and tons and tons of Christians are saying we
[05:45:12] and tons of Christians are saying we want biblical accountability. We want
[05:45:14] want biblical accountability. We want when those elders are persisting in sin
[05:45:16] when those elders are persisting in sin to rebuke them in the presence of all
[05:45:18] to rebuke them in the presence of all and to have no fear to do this because
[05:45:20] and to have no fear to do this because it will cause the rest of the church to
[05:45:22] it will cause the rest of the church to be purified in the process. We will have
[05:45:25] be purified in the process. We will have no fear of man. We will have fear of God
[05:45:26] no fear of man. We will have fear of God and that fear of God will purify the
[05:45:28] and that fear of God will purify the church. This is not enjoyable work. This
[05:45:30] church. This is not enjoyable work. This is not fun stuff. This is not
[05:45:32] is not fun stuff. This is not entertainment. This is about stoking an
[05:45:35] entertainment. This is about stoking an actual revival in the charismatic
[05:45:37] actual revival in the charismatic church. One that brings us back to what
[05:45:40] church. One that brings us back to what scripture says about honesty and
[05:45:42] scripture says about honesty and integrity and purity and holiness and
[05:45:44] integrity and purity and holiness and accountability. If we do it, it's going
[05:45:47] accountability. If we do it, it's going to bring, I believe, beautiful,
[05:45:49] to bring, I believe, beautiful, beautiful fruit. And all it takes is the
[05:45:51] beautiful fruit. And all it takes is the people who know stuff to say stuff.