# Explicit Content Debate: The Unseen Dangers Of Nofap & The Adult Industry Is Exploiting Our Brains!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LjNUabIJOk

[00:00] this has never happened before today we
[00:02] have three experts in their field with
[00:04] three different opinions debating the
[00:07] subject of porn this is the first time
[00:09] I've gone on pornh Hub at
[00:11] work in one corner we have Dr Reena
[00:14] Malik the sex scientist helping millions
[00:16] of couples enhance their sex lives in
[00:18] the other Corner we have Dr Kate the
[00:20] psychiatrist specializing in helping
[00:22] people with addictions to pornography
[00:24] and more who is up against Erica lust
[00:26] who runs a large pornographic production
[00:28] company no one can sit on the fence here
[00:31] is porn a benefit to people and Society
[00:34] definitely and especially for people who
[00:36] haven't really had that right to
[00:38] pleasure to understand their sexuality
[00:41] but I think what we're clearly seeing is
[00:43] a trend of it being damaging and let me
[00:45] just share with you all what I'm afraid
[00:47] of it is doing way more to the brain
[00:49] than we ever realized so the first thing
[00:52] that we know is that bye there's data to
[00:55] suggest that couples that use
[00:56] pornography together have better sexual
[00:59] en counters and women who use
[01:02] pornography have better sexual
[01:04] satisfaction rates and remember that
[01:06] women's sexuality has been so much about
[01:09] pleasing others and you see it with the
[01:11] orgasm Gap from a devil's advocate would
[01:13] say that there is significant number of
[01:15] women interested in looking a certain
[01:17] way that they're often seeing on
[01:19] pornography that's harmful I'm a bit
[01:21] suspicious about this because honestly
[01:24] that statement is from 10 years ago but
[01:26] there's also unrealistic expectations
[01:28] about performance that creat shame and
[01:30] small penis anxiety is a real thing and
[01:33] it's often from watching pornography the
[01:35] real problem is we are not giving sex
[01:38] education to our young people they are
[01:42] lost but it doesn't have to be an
[01:44] addiction it's the way that you relate
[01:46] to it it is something that people can
[01:48] control and parents can learn how to
[01:51] have these conversations with their kids
[01:53] there are a couple of really nice
[01:55] techniques that you can use the first is
[01:56] that
[01:59] this has always blown my mind a little
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[02:31] let's start with
[02:32] introductions Dr Reena who are you and
[02:35] what you do so I'm a urologist which is
[02:39] essentially a medical and surgical
[02:40] doctor of the genetry urinary tract but
[02:43] I see myself more as a digital opinion
[02:45] leader in the space of sexual health and
[02:47] neurologic health so someone who can
[02:49] talk to and speak about complex Concepts
[02:53] in addition to Sexual Health in a way
[02:56] that people can understand can you give
[02:57] me sort of a a view of the VAR iety of
[03:00] things that you've worked on in your
[03:02] career the types of patients you've
[03:03] worked with and the subject matter
[03:05] broadly that you've addressed and are
[03:06] confronted with in your line of work
[03:08] absolutely so as a urologist we're
[03:10] trained to treat anything in those areas
[03:12] of the genitor urinary tract so that can
[03:14] be kidney cancer prostate cancer bladder
[03:17] cancer Sexual Health erectile
[03:19] dysfunction female sexual dysfunction
[03:21] kidney stones children's issues but then
[03:25] when uh I did a fellowship in what's
[03:27] called female pelvic medicine and
[03:29] reconstructive surgery or Euro
[03:30] Gynecology so I initially trained in
[03:32] dealing with voiding dysfunction um and
[03:35] problems with bladder leakage overactive
[03:38] bladder prolapse those sorts of things
[03:40] and subsequently expanding my practice
[03:42] into sexual medicine so I take care of
[03:44] patients with issues with erectile
[03:47] dysfunction arousal or disorders
[03:49] ejaculatory dysfunction um libido issues
[03:54] uh lubrication issues a whole bunch of
[03:55] different areas of issues that people
[03:57] deal with when it comes to sexual health
[04:01] Dr K same question to you sure so I'm a
[04:04] psychiatrist by training but I had kind
[04:06] of a roundabout way to get there so uh I
[04:09] failed out of college due to video game
[04:11] addiction and then went to India to find
[04:13] myself studied uh to become a monk for
[04:16] about seven years and then wound up
[04:17] going to medical school becoming a
[04:19] psychiatrist and now the majority of the
[04:21] work that I do is actually like focused
[04:23] on the internet so what I noticed when I
[04:25] was training was that if you look at
[04:26] like academic Psychiatry or Psychiatry
[04:29] we focus on things like depression or
[04:30] bipolar disorder or anxiety but I saw
[04:33] that there was a whole lot of evolving
[04:36] mental health problems for the digital
[04:39] Generation video game addiction
[04:40] pornography addiction and I noticed that
[04:43] most of the psychiatrists weren't
[04:44] focused on those we kind of had an
[04:46] opioid epidemic that's still going on a
[04:48] lot of problems with alcohol and
[04:50] marijuana but there all these digital
[04:51] addictions that are emerging and those
[04:53] are the people that I work with now
[04:56] Erica yeah who are you and what you
[04:58] doing I'm Erica I'm independent adult
[05:03] filmmaker I'm an entrepreneur I made my
[05:06] first short film explicit short film 20
[05:10] years ago and then I developed a career
[05:16] in this space of Indie adult cinema and
[05:20] are you a director yes of adult films
[05:24] yeah I direct films I produce films I
[05:26] also run the company
[05:29] to set the stage on where we are with
[05:31] pornography I found some statistics
[05:32] which I thought were quite pertinent to
[05:34] the discussion which is the first
[05:36] statistic is that 30% of all internet
[05:38] traffic roughly is related to
[05:39] pornography 35% of all internet
[05:41] downloads are pornographic in nature 79%
[05:44] of young men view pornography monthly
[05:47] 64% of young adults actively seek out
[05:49] pornography weekly or more often one in
[05:51] five mobile searches are for
[05:53] pornographic content 58% of men and 38%
[05:57] of women watch porn at work and
[05:59] pornography websites receive more
[06:01] traffic than Netflix Amazon and Twitter
[06:03] combined interestingly I found another
[06:05] statistic which said that pornography in
[06:07] Poland has increased 310% between 2004
[06:10] which I guess is when you got into the
[06:11] business and
[06:13] 2016 some other sort of potentially
[06:15] adjacent Trends which I thought were
[06:16] interesting were that the percentage of
[06:18] men aged 18 to 24 reporting no sexual
[06:20] activity in the past year increased from
[06:24] 18.9% in 2000 to over 30% in 200 16 and
[06:30] similar increases in sexual activity are
[06:31] seen in men and women um similar
[06:33] decreases in sexual activity have been
[06:35] seen in men and women among high school
[06:36] students the percentage who have never
[06:38] had sexual intercourse increased from
[06:40] 45% in 91 to 70% in 21 and finally the
[06:45] average age of first exposure to
[06:47] pornography is now just 11 years old and
[06:49] 64% of young people report to that they
[06:52] came across pornography by accident so I
[06:55] guess my first um point of discussion
[06:57] that I wanted to raise is is
[07:00] pornography a benefit to people and
[07:04] society and I realize that this question
[07:06] is intentionally short and narrow but
[07:09] that's the basis of the first
[07:11] conversation and I want to start with
[07:12] you Erica is porn a benefit to people in
[07:14] society it can be it can be definitely
[07:17] and especially to the others who haven't
[07:20] really had that right to pleasure to
[07:24] desire to the sexuality remember that
[07:27] women's sexuality especially has been
[07:29] been so much about pleasing others I
[07:32] think that it can help women to find you
[07:36] know their own desire to understand
[07:38] their sexuality to see others what they
[07:40] like what they are doing and to turn
[07:43] their Liberty on Liber on which is
[07:47] obviously one of the things that so many
[07:49] women are struggling with let's go
[07:52] anticlockwise Dr K I'll repeat this
[07:54] statement is porn a benefit to people in
[07:57] society the way that corn is being
[08:00] produced and consumed is starting to
[08:02] cause way more harm than good I mean the
[08:06] the the statistics that you really just
[08:10] machine gunned out right like it's like
[08:12] one thing after another thing after
[08:13] another thing of things that are you
[08:15] know very scary like each statement that
[08:18] both of y'all made I could think about a
[08:19] specific person that I've worked with
[08:21] where it's like yeah I've seen that
[08:22] problem I've seen that problem um you
[08:24] know early exposure so when you get
[08:26] exposed to pornography before puberty so
[08:29] everyone thinks that pornography is
[08:30] about you know like sexual lust and and
[08:33] this kind of stuff and I think in a in a
[08:34] good way it can be but what I've seen a
[08:36] lot adults for adults is that children
[08:39] are getting exposed and I've seen like a
[08:41] very scary correlation between early
[08:44] exposure to pornography like seven eight
[08:46] nine years old right so I think your
[08:49] statistic was the average is 11 yeah
[08:52] that's average which means that there
[08:53] are people that are higher and people
[08:54] that are lower and when something I
[08:57] don't know what exactly but when we get
[08:58] exposed to pornography very early it
[09:01] makes some kind of alteration in our
[09:03] brain that makes us way more likely to
[09:05] addictions not only pornography but
[09:07] other things so I think that there you
[09:09] know sexuality is a healthy part of
[09:11] human existence um a lot of the current
[09:14] research suggests that masturbation is
[09:16] also like relatively speaking not
[09:18] unhealthy it's somewhat healthy and so
[09:22] pornography can be a part of that I
[09:24] think especially listening to Erica and
[09:26] how pornography can be used to elevate
[09:28] Horizons increase awareness um there can
[09:32] be benefits but I think what we're
[09:33] clearly seeing is a trend of it being
[09:37] damaging so I would say that I agree
[09:39] with Erica completely I think there's
[09:41] actually some data to suggest that women
[09:43] who use pornography have better sexual
[09:46] satisfaction rates have more frequency
[09:48] of sexual encounters because they're
[09:50] learning about their bodies I mean we
[09:52] can't know exactly why that is but we
[09:53] know there is a correlation in that
[09:55] specific way and so when people are
[09:56] using pornography for sexual curiosity
[10:00] um for pleasure um they're generally
[10:03] showing good for for the most part
[10:06] without any signs of addiction or or
[10:07] concerns of compulsion and use of
[10:09] pornography they're using it in in a
[10:11] good way and they're having better sex
[10:12] because of it now in terms of using it
[10:15] as a couple there's also really strong
[10:17] correlations that couples that use
[10:19] pornography together have better sexual
[10:22] encounters and better sexual
[10:24] satisfaction so I think there's a lot of
[10:26] ways that pornography is used in a
[10:28] positive way and not to undermine that
[10:30] there are people who struggle with it
[10:32] absolutely but I think yes there are
[10:34] some benefits it allows people to
[10:36] experience fantasies to see different
[10:38] types of sexual cultures as Erica
[10:41] mentioned and I think that that that is
[10:42] an important side of pornography in
[10:45] terms of um using that to learn what you
[10:48] like and learn what you want to try in
[10:50] your relationship if that's applicable
[10:52] much of the literature that I've read
[10:53] about and the studies I've read about
[10:54] show
[10:55] that if you consume pornography you're
[10:58] somewhat desensi ties to the real thing
[11:01] I.E sex in your relationships and when
[11:03] we look at those stats on sexlessness
[11:05] people are having less sex than previous
[11:07] years people are losing their virginity
[11:08] later and later and I wonder if that is
[11:11] we've sort of been desensitized to the
[11:13] real thing because of pornography Reena
[11:15] absolutely so I think that there is
[11:17] certainly people who feel they use
[11:20] pornography as a way to achieve pleasure
[11:23] and that is the sole way that they
[11:24] achieve pleasure so they are constantly
[11:26] using pornography and it's sometimes
[11:29] correlated with a certain style of
[11:31] masturbation and those things cannot be
[11:34] replicated with penetrative intercourse
[11:38] of any kind or you know manual
[11:40] intercourse with another person and so
[11:43] in those cases then it becomes difficult
[11:46] because your brain habituates to that
[11:48] style of stimulation and excitement and
[11:52] visual sense Sensations that they're
[11:53] getting from watching pornography and so
[11:56] that does happen to some individuals I
[11:58] would say say it's not the large
[12:00] majority but certainly we're seeing more
[12:02] of it what is the impact though on the
[12:04] brain especially a young brain that is
[12:06] exposed to pornography yeah I mean
[12:09] there's no we there's no studies on kids
[12:10] looking at pornography so I couldn't
[12:12] tell you exactly but you might be able
[12:14] to talk a look more about this yeah I
[12:16] mean so like first of all I think this
[12:17] is a fascinating discussion and if I can
[12:19] kind of track back and freestyle for a
[12:22] bit so I thought it was so interesting
[12:23] because Stephen asked this question
[12:25] right and he's like you know is
[12:27] pornography a problem and then I thought
[12:29] it was so interesting that the two women
[12:30] at the table had the more positive
[12:32] answers and the dude is like it's bad
[12:36] right so I I think the first thing to
[12:38] understand is that and it's so for me
[12:39] it's eye openening to hear both of y'all
[12:41] talk because I I think so much of it is
[12:43] like your experience of it right we're
[12:45] talking about pornography as if it's an
[12:47] isolated thing but the biggest takeaway
[12:50] that I already have is that there is a
[12:53] relationship between the human and the
[12:55] pornography uh Erica was talking about
[12:57] you know how the pornography can be used
[12:59] to help the human understand sexuality
[13:03] become more familiar with pleasure that
[13:05] we have con with your desire yeah and we
[13:07] have this orgasm Gap and then and then
[13:09] you know she's and Arena was saying you
[13:11] know we don't I forgot exactly what you
[13:13] said but something about we don't see it
[13:15] very much or you said that the the
[13:17] problems of um you know sexuality
[13:20] relating to pornography are I thought
[13:22] you said not that common which is which
[13:25] is something that I'm not saying it's
[13:26] common or uncommon I think that's just
[13:27] such an interesting selection difference
[13:30] because I work with people who have
[13:32] pornography and like death grip syndrome
[13:34] because I've never heard it discussed is
[13:36] like very common what's death grip
[13:38] syndrome so it's exactly it's a twitch
[13:42] chat degenerate way of describing what
[13:45] Dr mik did a great medical job of
[13:47] describing which is that so what happens
[13:49] is our body can acclimatize to a certain
[13:52] kind of stimulation so when um often
[13:55] times what happens when and I I haven't
[13:58] worked with too many women and and
[14:00] sexual stuff way more men um so that
[14:03] there's a selection bias there too but
[14:05] often times what happens is that boys or
[14:08] men will start to masturbate without any
[14:10] kind of lubrication and so there's a ve
[14:13] they almost train their bodies physio
[14:15] physiologically to climax with a certain
[14:18] degree like a certain you know pounds
[14:20] per square inch of force and a certain
[14:23] sensation which they get used to not
[14:25] only at the physiologic level but also
[14:27] at the neurological level which Dr mik
[14:30] alluded to that there's a certain kind
[14:32] of um visual stimulation that they
[14:35] almost get used to the brain
[14:37] acclimatizes to in order to achieve
[14:40] sexual Climax and then what happens is
[14:42] when these people have a sexual
[14:44] relationship for the first time the
[14:46] sensations and the the from a visual
[14:49] perspective you know auditory
[14:51] perspective because the sounds that we
[14:53] hear in these big you know fast food
[14:56] pornography Productions are nowhere near
[14:58] the sounds in real life um and and so
[15:01] the the inputs of an actual sexual act
[15:05] make it very difficult to have a A
[15:08] Satisfied sexual life and so I think
[15:10] that there's a lot of subtlety to you
[15:12] know when Dr mik said when couples watch
[15:14] porn together there are also studies
[15:17] that show that as you increase your
[15:19] pornography consumption that correlates
[15:22] with relationship
[15:23] dissatisfaction but that could be a
[15:25] chicken or the egg problem am I watching
[15:27] more porn because I'm unhappy with the
[15:30] sexual relationship or does watching
[15:33] pornography decrease my satisfaction in
[15:36] the relationship and so I I think it's
[15:38] there's just like so much here to
[15:39] explore yeah yeah and I think your point
[15:42] about the couples usually yeah if
[15:43] there's a discrepancy in one partner is
[15:45] watching more porn than the other then
[15:47] there's s decreased satisfaction
[15:49] certainly um and I think that your point
[15:52] to saying that you're seeing a lot of it
[15:53] well that's these people come to you for
[15:55] this problem right so you're seeing this
[15:57] exclusively um but I think in the
[15:59] general population um and maybe they're
[16:01] not coming to the urologist as often
[16:03] right um but certainly I'm not seeing as
[16:06] much of it and it's not reported in
[16:07] terms of like people complaining about
[16:09] it in studies and again these studies
[16:11] are small numbers and they're not
[16:12] generalizable to the entire population
[16:14] but I would say that it's not as common
[16:16] as I think we let on but the other
[16:17] important thing to add is that there's a
[16:20] because it's so nuanced there's a big
[16:22] moral component people have a belief
[16:24] about what pornography is good or bad
[16:27] and so when they watch pornography if
[16:30] they have a moral in congruence meaning
[16:31] they think it's bad to watch pornography
[16:34] they are more likely to report having a
[16:36] problem with pornography so there's a
[16:37] lot of nuance here in terms of how
[16:41] pornography can be beneficial or harmful
[16:43] to a specific individual and how it
[16:45] affects that specific individual's
[16:47] brains whether it's going to send same
[16:49] Pathways um you know as any sort of
[16:51] strong visual stimuli the way your body
[16:54] sensitizes to those Pathways is very
[16:57] individual and what about poog on the
[16:59] brain then in terms of its impact on
[17:00] dopamine and how that then will Cascade
[17:02] into other areas of Our Lives yeah so I
[17:05] mean I I'll launch this one um so I I
[17:08] think that the biggest takeaway that I
[17:11] have is it is doing way more than we
[17:13] ever realized so the first thing is if
[17:16] you get exposed to pornography early on
[17:18] in life and this accidental exposure by
[17:20] the way the most common story that I
[17:22] hear and this is such a weird like
[17:24] anecdotal statistic is um if you're if
[17:28] you have older brother and you're a
[17:30] younger brother I see so many
[17:33] pornography addicts who have older
[17:34] brothers and the most common story that
[17:36] I hear is you know older brother is post
[17:40] puberty and is watching pornography
[17:43] which is like a little bit more
[17:44] understandable and acceptable and then
[17:46] your younger brother wants to do
[17:47] whatever you're doing and they get
[17:48] exposed to it at an early age so the
[17:51] first thing that we know is that early
[17:53] exposure correlates with an increase in
[17:55] potential for addiction that's probably
[17:57] somewhat neurologic olcal and
[17:59] potentially somewhat um sociological or
[18:02] family oriented because if you think
[18:04] about what kind of seven-year-old will
[18:06] get exposure to pornography maybe
[18:08] parents aren't in the house as much so
[18:10] there could be other risk factors but we
[18:12] we absolutely know that when you
[18:14] activate in an artificial way the
[18:16] dopaminergic circuitry of the brain it
[18:18] sensitizes the dopaminergic circuitry
[18:21] and makes it more vulnerable to dopamine
[18:24] later on this is something called the
[18:26] kindling effect we see this also for
[18:28] example in like marijuana as a gateway
[18:30] drug the reason marijuana is a gateway
[18:32] drug is is not because it makes you
[18:34] immoral it's because once we start
[18:36] activating certain circuits in the brain
[18:38] during brain development it changes the
[18:40] way that they develop the second thing
[18:42] that we see is that pornography is used
[18:45] as a method of emotional regulation so
[18:49] if you look at like I was trying to
[18:50] figure out what effect does pornography
[18:52] have in the brain and so I was thinking
[18:54] about okay which part of the brain does
[18:56] sex come from and it turns out that
[18:58] every part of the brain every
[19:00] neurotransmitter is involved in the
[19:01] sexual act because the purpose The
[19:03] evolutionary purpose of a human being is
[19:05] to procreate so all of our circuitry is
[19:07] designed for this thing so we we see
[19:11] that there's absolutely an emotional
[19:12] regulation component um because when we
[19:15] get aroused like our brain doesn't care
[19:18] about you know anything else in our life
[19:20] when it comes to the act of procreation
[19:23] so we see a lot of emotional regulation
[19:25] which then becomes an emotional crutch
[19:27] so I see a lot of this now with where um
[19:29] people at work will watch pornography
[19:31] and it's not about masturbation or lust
[19:33] it's about emotional regulation I've
[19:35] seen a huge spike in second screen
[19:38] pornography so we'll be working over
[19:40] here and I'll just have porn like
[19:42] running over here like this is a a
[19:43] really common story and it's an
[19:45] emotional regulation effect now the
[19:46] third thing that that you uh the
[19:48] question you asked about is dopamine so
[19:50] here's a really fascinating thing so it
[19:51] absolutely messes with your dopamine
[19:53] when it messes with your dopamine it
[19:55] messes with your motivation because
[19:57] dopamine is the prim neurotransmitter
[19:59] involved in motivation so as you watch
[20:01] more pornography you just stop being as
[20:04] motivated about the other things in your
[20:05] life and the Really crippling thing the
[20:07] really scary thing from a relationship
[20:09] standpoint is that if we look at falling
[20:12] in love falling in love is
[20:15] primarily the function of dopamine so
[20:18] when we look at a relationship there's
[20:19] initial attraction which it comes from
[20:21] like the thalamus in our sensory inputs
[20:24] what do I see what do I hear oh she
[20:25] smells great her laugh is beautiful
[20:27] right that's all sensory and then we get
[20:29] into the stage where we're in love when
[20:30] I can't get enough of this person I'm
[20:32] just sitting with this person we're not
[20:33] talking we're not doing anything we're
[20:35] just holding hands and oh I'm so in love
[20:37] so like literally what creates that
[20:39] feeling is dopamine and when we start
[20:42] using pornography on a regular basis our
[20:45] dopamine stores start to deplete we
[20:46] start to develop dopamine tolerance and
[20:49] like literally what I'm seeing
[20:50] clinically matches with this because
[20:52] it's harder for people to fall in love
[20:55] when I talk to younger people now who
[20:57] are in their 20s and 30s and struggling
[20:58] to date you know you go on a couple of
[21:00] dates but what's the problem there's no
[21:02] chemistry there's no spark that comes
[21:04] from dopamine so I think we're seeing
[21:06] all kinds of really scary Downstream
[21:09] effects from unregulated pornography
[21:13] use I can't help but feeling that what
[21:16] you're talking about is a very masculine
[21:18] experience somehow and that when we're
[21:20] talking about poror addiction or
[21:24] compulsory Behavior with
[21:26] pornography it is very related to men
[21:31] and that we in our society tends to see
[21:34] men's experiences as universal
[21:38] experiences and I think that we lack a
[21:42] perspective of really where when women
[21:45] get into this construction of of
[21:49] addiction of use of pornography is it
[21:53] Reena do you see it as an addiction so I
[21:56] you know this is what I think I think
[21:57] that I the so it's not been termed an
[21:59] addiction in terms of in medical
[22:00] vernacular they call it problematic porn
[22:02] use because it there hasn't been a clear
[22:05] definition in terms of addiction right
[22:08] um but I would say that I think that
[22:10] there are certainly people who have this
[22:12] experience but there's certainly many
[22:14] many people who use pornography and
[22:16] don't develop this tolerance and maybe
[22:18] it's more common in younger people
[22:19] because they're getting access to it
[22:21] sooner and more often and that has yet
[22:23] to play out at least I tend to see older
[22:26] patients and so um so that has yet to
[22:28] play out in in older Generations but I
[22:31] would say that I think there's many
[22:32] people who use it fine and don't have an
[22:34] issue and so I think that while these
[22:37] issues do exist there's also a whole
[22:39] bunch of other things that are ongoing
[22:40] in society right now that may make it
[22:42] more difficult for people to connect and
[22:44] for people to feel intimacy with people
[22:47] because it's very difficult currently
[22:49] more and more people are not getting
[22:51] married more and more people are
[22:52] choosing to stay single for a variety of
[22:54] reasons I don't think porn is the only
[22:56] Factor there I do think it is something
[22:58] that people can control and so they feel
[23:00] like okay if you feel like you have a
[23:02] problem with it and you can control
[23:04] pornography that allows you to feel like
[23:06] you have control in one area of your
[23:07] life that then that control can
[23:10] potentially improve other areas of your
[23:11] life so I think that there is
[23:13] correlations here but I think it's very
[23:15] complex I think the way it affects our
[23:16] brains is very complex as well and like
[23:18] dopamine is one way to describe it but
[23:20] there's you know there's different
[23:21] sensitivities and how our brain responds
[23:23] to the same stimuli right the way I
[23:25] watch pornography the way you watch
[23:27] pornography the way anyone of us watches
[23:29] pornography our brains will respond in a
[23:30] different way um because our receptors
[23:33] are either more sensitive or less
[23:35] sensitive and there's no way to really
[23:36] test that on an individual level one of
[23:39] the things I found most interesting when
[23:41] I had the first conversation on this
[23:42] podcast about pornography is my my team
[23:44] went out and looked at um a couple of
[23:46] tools which pull search data so what are
[23:48] people searching on the subject and the
[23:50] number one most search term was how do I
[23:53] quit pornography and that's quite an
[23:55] interesting thing because there's a
[23:57] certain desperation to that question
[23:59] you know going to Google to ask Google
[24:01] how you quit a behavior that makes me
[24:04] think of it in the context of an
[24:06] addiction and in fact the second most
[24:07] popular search term was also about how
[24:09] how you quit this thing and and it
[24:11] speaks to a certain powerlessness that a
[24:13] certain percentage of people feel they
[24:15] have with pornography um throwing that
[24:18] out to to everybody here no but I think
[24:21] this connects also to the stigma the
[24:22] huge stigma around sex and around porn
[24:25] and this idea that people have somehow
[24:27] that it is bad I mean people want to
[24:30] watch it at the same time they they have
[24:32] the moral idea that it's bad and that
[24:35] they shouldn't do it but I think we're
[24:38] also talking here I mean we end up
[24:40] talking about porn all the time but
[24:42] somehow porn is now very related to
[24:45] technology and how technology kind of
[24:48] has hijacked Our Lives it's not only
[24:53] porn we're struggling with in that sense
[24:56] and when you know with young people
[24:58] people they are saying they are not
[24:59] having as much sex anymore you were
[25:01] talking about it before uh kids are not
[25:05] playing as much anymore outside as they
[25:09] used to so I think we have a correlation
[25:13] there that we need to think about the
[25:16] role of technology and then how much of
[25:20] that space does really this pornography
[25:23] take up and also to have in mind that
[25:27] when we're talking about po porn most
[25:29] people see it as a monolithic kind of
[25:32] thing when when if you go out on the
[25:34] street and you ask people what is porn
[25:36] they think about the tube sites that's
[25:38] what that's what they have in mind but
[25:40] actually there's many different kinds of
[25:43] porn existing do you think there's such
[25:46] a thing as good porn and bad porn it's a
[25:48] very difficult kind of Distinction to
[25:52] say bad porn and good porn because if
[25:54] you do that then it's you classify some
[25:57] type as as acceptable and other types as
[26:00] nonone and you kind of you know grow the
[26:03] stigma around it I think that we need to
[26:06] think about porn that is made with great
[26:10] working conditions taking care of
[26:12] everybody who's involved in that process
[26:15] especially the performers made with uh
[26:18] support by intimacy coordinator Talent
[26:21] managers where the performers have been
[26:23] able to be involved in the process to
[26:26] give feedback on what is going to be how
[26:29] how it's working they have they know all
[26:31] the conditions beforehand Etc they can
[26:34] give feedback afterwards H I think there
[26:37] are ways of producing pornography that
[26:40] are safer than what we have seen in the
[26:43] past we were talking a second ago about
[26:45] the impact pornography has on the brain
[26:47] um and I know some of your work involves
[26:49] dealing with people who have erectile
[26:51] dysfunction some of the stats I read on
[26:52] erectile dysfunction show that there's
[26:54] been quite a significant increase over
[26:55] the last couple of decades in people
[26:56] reporting to have erectile function do
[26:59] you think porn has played a role in
[27:01] increasing erectile dysfunction as it
[27:03] relates to when I'm with my partner in
[27:04] the bedroom and I'm trying to have sex
[27:07] so I think this goes back to the people
[27:08] who are watching pornography and are
[27:11] learning what sex is through pornography
[27:14] and then they go to their sexual
[27:15] encounter with their partner and they
[27:17] don't respond the way that they do on
[27:19] pornography or their partner doesn't
[27:20] respond the way they do on pornography
[27:22] and immediately they feel insecure right
[27:25] immediately and that leads to this
[27:27] psychogenic ere dysfunction where you
[27:29] are no longer able to perform because
[27:33] you're so stressed about the anxiety of
[27:36] being able to get an erection because
[27:37] maybe things didn't go the way they were
[27:39] supposed to or maybe you're insecure
[27:41] about your body image or a whole host of
[27:43] things that come from watching maybe
[27:45] some of the big box pornography where
[27:46] we're not really showing real sex we're
[27:50] showing a produced product that is meant
[27:52] to entertain and uh Captivate people for
[27:55] a short period of time and so I think
[27:57] that is one certainly issue that I do
[28:00] see where people start feeling this the
[28:02] other thing is where people are um you
[28:04] know using pornography over quite often
[28:08] and then they again are are unable to
[28:10] get that stimulation through a partner
[28:13] right they can't get the same they're
[28:14] using death grip or they're using um you
[28:16] know the same this very erotic stimuli
[28:19] very intense visual erotic stimuli that
[28:21] they can't produce with a person and so
[28:23] then they're like why am I not getting
[28:25] aroused and why am I not getting an
[28:26] erection and it's because they've now
[28:28] relied on this solely so I do see that
[28:31] certainly um as an issue in some people
[28:34] who are using pornography but I don't
[28:36] think it's like pornography use leads to
[28:38] ED I think it's these other factors on
[28:40] the way to having psychological concerns
[28:44] about your own performance that lead to
[28:46] issues with directions and before we
[28:48] move on on Dr K's point about motivation
[28:51] as well do you believe that there's a
[28:53] correlation between the amount that we
[28:55] watch pornography and mass debate and
[28:57] someone's motivation based on what you
[28:59] know about dopamine receptors you know
[29:01] hard to say I think again it's very
[29:02] individual certainly some people will
[29:05] take the E like you know there is a
[29:08] availability part when it comes to any
[29:10] sort of addiction type Behavior so when
[29:13] something is more available to you and
[29:15] you're using it more often it can become
[29:17] more problematic and so certainly I
[29:19] think that plays a role in terms of like
[29:21] if you're using it a lot and it's very
[29:23] available to you and it's an easy way to
[29:25] emotionally regulate right if you're
[29:27] having stress and life you're unhappy
[29:28] with your relationship or you're unhappy
[29:30] with other things people are often using
[29:32] pornography as a way to avoid those
[29:36] negative emotions and really just
[29:38] participate in something else like take
[29:40] their mind off of that and so that is
[29:42] sort of where it becomes this challenge
[29:45] for some people yeah I just wanted to
[29:47] chime in so this is fantastic because
[29:49] because I I I agree with everything that
[29:51] y'all are saying and I also kind of come
[29:53] to a slightly different conclusion so
[29:55] the number one search term that we have
[29:57] is how do I I quit porn so when I hear
[30:00] that and and I think Dr mik has also
[30:02] done a great job of pointing out you
[30:03] know there's a difference between
[30:05] anecdotal clinical experience and what
[30:07] we have randomized clinical trials on
[30:10] you know we're not exposing
[30:11] seven-year-olds to pornography and then
[30:14] seeing how their brain develops by doing
[30:16] MRI scans over the course of 10 years so
[30:19] some of this research is absolutely not
[30:21] there and we also have the number one
[30:24] search term is how do I quit porn what
[30:26] that tells me is that there is the
[30:28] literally the largest population of what
[30:31] people are looking at is to stop using
[30:34] pornography and I think the reason for
[30:36] that is is there good porn or is there
[30:37] bad porn is it individual is it Nuance
[30:39] completely agree with all those points
[30:42] it's not a problem for everyone but I
[30:44] think what I'm seeing very clearly is
[30:46] that it's getting worse right so it's
[30:48] not an issue of good or bad what is the
[30:50] trend that we're seeing we're Tren the
[30:52] trend that we're seeing is that Erica is
[30:54] saying hey pornography can be more than
[30:56] the tube sites so that then begs the
[30:58] question why does everyone think that
[31:00] pornography is the tube sites because
[31:03] they hijacked the system exactly so I
[31:06] think that word is is beautiful hijack
[31:08] so I think what we're seeing what I'm
[31:10] seeing is that pornography is getting
[31:13] worse for sure it's becoming more of a
[31:15] problem if we look at these tube sites
[31:17] there there you know it's kind of like
[31:20] there's nutrition and then there's
[31:22] calories and a lot of what I'm hearing
[31:24] y'all talk about you know Dr mik is
[31:26] saying if you watch it as part of a
[31:27] relationship ship that's nutrition it
[31:29] can be something healthy we can learn
[31:31] about ourselves we can destigmatize
[31:33] various things fair enough but I think
[31:35] we're seeing the same trends that we see
[31:37] with like fast food where now
[31:39] pornography is becoming mass-produced
[31:41] and there are actually studies that show
[31:43] there's a really fascinating
[31:45] bizarre piece of research right which is
[31:48] where the you have to go this is where
[31:49] I've gone to find this stuff because we
[31:50] don't have studies but there was a
[31:52] particular group of biologists who were
[31:54] noticing that a population of beetles
[31:56] was dying out and they were trying to
[31:58] figure out like why is this population
[32:00] of beetles dying out and what they
[32:02] discovered is there's one thing that's
[32:04] responsible for these beetles not mating
[32:06] with each other which is green beer
[32:09] bottles that were being littered and the
[32:12] green beer bottle then what they noticed
[32:13] is that the Beatles were trying to go up
[32:16] to the green beer bottle and mate with
[32:18] it and they were like what is going on
[32:20] you'd see this this litter that has a
[32:21] green beer bottle and a bunch of male
[32:23] beetles are clustered around it and like
[32:26] they're like what is this and it turns
[32:28] out that there's this concept of
[32:30] something called a supera normal
[32:31] stimulus so when a Beetle's eyes look at
[32:34] the environment there's certain signals
[32:36] that indicate this is a fertile female
[32:38] and a green glass beer bottle activates
[32:41] those parts of the brain and what we're
[32:43] seeing with these tube sites is things
[32:46] are [ __ ] things are louder things are
[32:50] slipperier right we have these 4K high
[32:53] defa like so we're we're sort of turning
[32:55] we're taking what used to be nutritious
[32:58] and we are turning it into fast food and
[33:01] that and what why all these tube sites
[33:03] why are they successful they're in this
[33:06] darwinian war that's kind of like a race
[33:08] to the bottom how can I create the
[33:10] pornography that is going to leech the
[33:12] most traffic away from my competitors
[33:15] and they're figuring out very rapidly
[33:17] that there are all kinds of weird ways
[33:18] to activate the brain what our brain
[33:20] looks for and what it gets excited about
[33:24] and so it feels to me like there's a
[33:25] race to the bottom we're making
[33:27] pornography for money we're making it
[33:29] more addtive but the thing is that these
[33:31] companies Behind these tube sites they
[33:33] are not interested in human sexuality
[33:36] they're not interested in sex they're
[33:37] not interested in porn they're not
[33:39] interested in the conditions of the
[33:41] people who are working in front of the
[33:43] camera I mean they're selling
[33:45] advertisement and what do they need for
[33:47] that they need content that is Extreme
[33:50] that has words that are click baity that
[33:53] are kind of small clips that are quick
[33:56] to watch they look at the algorithms to
[33:59] see what works right but this reminds me
[34:02] of the food industry yeah of course it's
[34:03] the same as big F the same as big farmer
[34:06] big fashion Etc big porn is the same how
[34:10] does an industry succeed if it doesn't
[34:12] engage in that practice though if
[34:14] because think about the food industry
[34:15] the thing that has the most sugar in
[34:17] that's the most available the cheapest
[34:18] is the thing that's going to succeed the
[34:20] most so in the we think about these tube
[34:22] sites some of the stats are crazy I mean
[34:23] only fans released their earnings for
[34:24] last year up 20% they made 6.6 billion
[34:28] um PornHub one of the big tube sites is
[34:30] the eighth most trafficed website in the
[34:32] world at the moment doing 5.5 billion
[34:35] monthly visits these are the brands that
[34:37] people recognize and it's it's extreme
[34:39] like if we think about nutrition high in
[34:41] sugar it's extreme so I get the the most
[34:43] extreme sort of dopamine stimulation
[34:45] it's so easy to access I can one I don't
[34:48] have to put my shoes on and put my After
[34:50] Shave on I can just I can get on there
[34:53] within 15 seconds for me to get laid I'm
[34:57] going to have to put in some work I'm
[34:59] going to have to go to the gym I'm going
[35:00] to have to take care of I'm going to
[35:01] have to go get a job I'm going to have
[35:03] to get some money I'm going to Le I'm
[35:04] going to have to learn how to speak to a
[35:06] woman or 15 seconds and I can see the
[35:08] most
[35:10] extreme yeah I I think that's the
[35:12] problem but I do worry to some I'm going
[35:14] to play a little bit of Devil's Advocate
[35:16] my devil's advocate would say that
[35:17] because there's so much moral in
[35:19] congruence that leads to problematic
[35:20] porn news porn addiction whatever you
[35:22] want to call it right that we're
[35:24] creating more of it by disparaging
[35:26] pornography right like that everywhere
[35:29] people are saying pornography is bad
[35:30] pornography is bad you can't go on any
[35:32] social media platform without somebody
[35:34] citing a study that says pornography is
[35:36] leeching people's life force and their
[35:38] you know their life is falling apart
[35:40] because of pornography and Destroy lives
[35:43] right and and so but so then we're also
[35:46] adding to that moral in congruence by
[35:47] saying that all pornography is bad
[35:49] pornography is there because we're
[35:50] watching it right and so people like if
[35:53] you asked like probably the generation
[35:55] older to me like would you be would you
[35:57] be watching porn where you're seeing um
[36:00] the things that you're seeing now which
[36:02] I mean shocking to me right like they
[36:04] would be like no I don't want to see
[36:05] that right like I that doesn't interest
[36:07] me in the slightest but like why is this
[36:10] becoming so you know people are watching
[36:12] it I mean to me so much of this is
[36:14] totally anti-erotic I sometimes go there
[36:18] to investigate and to kind of see what's
[36:20] what's going on and what's happening and
[36:22] I feel like oh no don't J it is I don't
[36:24] want to see it oh I rather throw up than
[36:27] you know feel excitement and wanting to
[36:30] to have sex so it has an opposite effect
[36:33] on on lots of their their audiences
[36:36] actually but again what is it about the
[36:40] it's about earning money and
[36:41] concentrating power it's about selling
[36:44] advertisement that's what they're doing
[36:46] it's grow your dick pills it's dat the
[36:48] sexy Latina in your neighborhood
[36:51] it's and and as a society we have been
[36:55] very slow to see what has happened
[36:58] because these sides they were born you
[37:01] know 17 years ago 2007 they came out it
[37:06] happened very very
[37:08] fast so a couple of thoughts the first
[37:11] is like yeah that's exactly what's going
[37:13] on is like so if we think about it we
[37:14] have all of these every part of our
[37:16] brain right oxytocin dopamine serotonin
[37:20] estrogen testosterone right those are
[37:23] hormones not brains but you know every
[37:25] Circuit of the brain all of our
[37:26] neurotrans MERS they're all to help us
[37:29] procreate and now what's happened is
[37:31] people have fundamentally
[37:34] hijacked all of these circuits and we're
[37:37] seeing problems and I'm with you about
[37:38] the moral in congruence because we see
[37:40] this in other addictions as well where
[37:41] we we tried to like demonize like
[37:43] alcohol usage right and we know that
[37:45] once we separate out the moral in
[37:47] congruence because once I feel guilty
[37:48] and ashamed this is something I see a
[37:50] lot I watch pornography now I feel
[37:52] ashamed how am I going to cope with
[37:54] those emotions watching more pornography
[37:56] and so you create thisy
[37:58] of like like this moral Focus cycle of
[38:01] Shame and that actually fuels the
[38:03] dependence so that's absolutely an issue
[38:06] at the same time like these companies
[38:08] and they don't care about erotic or
[38:11] Falling in Love or Whatever right
[38:12] they're interested in making a buck and
[38:14] they're exploiting our brain and while
[38:17] we should be a little bit careful about
[38:19] the moralistic nature of it I mean I've
[38:21] seen it gets so much it's getting worse
[38:23] like every time every year and this
[38:25] could be selection bias right cuz I I'm
[38:27] an addiction psychiatrist but I I think
[38:29] it's like even with something like only
[38:30] fans because now what we're adding is a
[38:32] social component the one Refuge we used
[38:35] to have when it comes to pornography
[38:37] whether it's ethically produced or non-
[38:38] ethically produced is that there's no
[38:40] way that this person is ever going to
[38:41] pay attention to me I'm just consuming
[38:43] something but now now I can interact
[38:47] with someone someone can send me a DM
[38:49] hey thank you for watching my video and
[38:52] jerking off that makes me so happy but
[38:55] you know it's an AI bot right sometimes
[38:57] so so so I know it's an AI bot but I am
[39:01] so ashamed of myself that you know take
[39:05] whatever water is given to you in the
[39:06] desert I am so alone I am I feel so bad
[39:10] about myself and there's a chance right
[39:12] there's a chance it's not an AI problem
[39:13] the real problem is that we are not
[39:15] speaking about sex we are not speaking
[39:17] about intimacy people don't have the sex
[39:20] education and they are lost and they are
[39:24] human beings they have this drive and
[39:26] this need and we had it in all cultures
[39:28] right do you think people had the sex
[39:30] education they would still be on only
[39:31] fans talking to what's probably cuz
[39:34] there are big agencies now I've seen on
[39:37] social media there are big agencies of
[39:39] men who pretend to be these porn stars
[39:41] on sites like only fans and I I see them
[39:44] bragging about their income it's this
[39:45] big thing on Twitter at the moment I've
[39:47] made $10,000 this month pretending to be
[39:49] this actress speaking to young men on
[39:53] only fans yeah and I think the reason
[39:55] that men do that part of the reason is
[39:58] because they know what men want to hear
[40:00] right there's a part of us that they
[40:01] know exactly what to say because it
[40:02] won't be an AI bot it'll be this kind of
[40:04] person and now what's happening is we're
[40:06] activating the social loneliness aspect
[40:09] and combining it with pornography so now
[40:12] you actually have a relationship with
[40:14] maybe an AI bot maybe a dude right but
[40:17] there is like some amount of genuine
[40:19] human interaction over the Internet so
[40:22] this is getting worse and I think sex
[40:23] education is an excellent point at the
[40:26] same time I don't know if sex education
[40:29] is going to be sufficient because I
[40:30] think we can teach people about their
[40:32] bodies but we're also seeing like a wh
[40:34] scale social skills atrophy where dudes
[40:36] don't know how to talk to girls anymore
[40:38] yeah and also media porn is Media it's
[40:41] important to understand that it's
[40:43] telling us messages about gender roles
[40:46] how we interact about sexuality how our
[40:49] body functions Etc so when we have all
[40:52] this
[40:53] misinformation going on on this online
[40:56] huge media of free porn and we see women
[41:00] screaming in fake orgasms after four
[41:03] minutes of hard penetration and as a
[41:06] woman you look at her and you say she
[41:08] didn't even use her fingers what
[41:10] happened you know and you just know that
[41:12] something is wrong here that this is
[41:15] fake but then there's lots of men out
[41:17] there thinking this is what my
[41:19] girlfriend should be doing this is how
[41:21] it should work and then they don't
[41:23] connect in real life what kind of point
[41:25] do you make what kind of porn do I make
[41:28] I make I make lovely porn I make
[41:30] beautiful porn I make cinematic porn I
[41:33] make porn with you know with intentions
[41:36] of of of
[41:39] showing different uh ideas of desire and
[41:43] fantasy where people I try to work with
[41:45] people who are connecting who show
[41:49] chemistry together I ask my performers
[41:52] who they want to work with I try to team
[41:55] them up I support them with a system of
[41:59] intimacy coordinator Talent managers
[42:01] producers in the background that take
[42:03] care of them that check who they are
[42:05] what they like what kind of sexuality do
[42:07] they have but if I was a consumer of
[42:09] your pornography what would I notice
[42:11] that what would you notice probably the
[42:12] great cinematography would be the first
[42:14] thing you would notice kind of
[42:17] narratives uh that are erotic driven
[42:20] somehow where people explore their
[42:23] desire and their sexuality you would
[42:25] notice
[42:28] um you you would feel very I mean many
[42:31] people tell me they they Go like Erica
[42:33] but I watch your films is it really porn
[42:35] because they identify porn as something
[42:39] that is kind of tacky
[42:41] agly kind of objectifying Etc so
[42:44] suddenly when they see people in my
[42:47] films having sex coming together and
[42:50] everything is kind of you understand why
[42:53] they are Desiring each other and you
[42:56] kind of I am invite them to join this
[42:58] kind of erotic journey of the characters
[43:01] then they go but this is more like like
[43:03] in the in the cinema in the eroic cinema
[43:06] can I is it fair to assume that because
[43:08] you from what I've heard though the
[43:10] pornography you produce is has a slower
[43:13] story arc which is more reflective of
[43:16] what sometimes okay so so I'm trying to
[43:19] because the things that you it sounds
[43:20] like you might have yeah removed from
[43:23] the pornography you make yeah versus the
[43:26] pornography I'd find on one of of the
[43:27] big tube streaming sites the most
[43:28] popular videos on the tube streaming
[43:30] sites it sounds like you might have put
[43:32] yourself at a bit of a competitive
[43:33] disadvantage in many respects because
[43:36] those streaming sites if their incentive
[43:37] is purely money yeah the data is going
[43:40] to determine what people see so that's
[43:43] so it feels like they've really
[43:44] optimized for user consumption where
[43:46] you've optimized for something around
[43:48] ethics because I care about it for me
[43:51] the money is not the most important
[43:53] aspect why I you know created this
[43:56] company why I'm making this I really
[43:59] want to kind of send a different kind of
[44:03] message out to the world do your content
[44:06] end up on those sites sometimes
[44:09] sometimes uh years ago it was taken on
[44:13] those sites for example changing the
[44:15] wording of it because remember that many
[44:17] of these sites also what they do is that
[44:20] they fetishize people they use very
[44:23] racist language chauvinistic language
[44:26] Etc
[44:27] and my movies may have much softer kind
[44:31] of language and the way they are so uh
[44:35] they they obviously pirated them they
[44:37] put them up and they changed kind of the
[44:40] wording for for the bits it was a very
[44:43] hard process to take them down Etc what
[44:47] do you think is better for someone's
[44:48] relationship specifically so men and
[44:50] women do you think no porn is better for
[44:53] their relationship do you think your
[44:55] porn is better for their relationship or
[44:57] do you think and obviously I think it's
[44:58] individual I think it's a very
[45:00] individual decision what works best
[45:03] sorry yeah I can answer I've never seen
[45:05] one of your films I can tell you it's
[45:07] her porn thank you better than no porn
[45:09] I'm going to go ahead and go out on a
[45:10] limb and saying that if you're someone
[45:13] who's struggling with
[45:15] pornography watching an erotic film with
[45:17] a glass of wine with your significant
[45:19] other is a great way to
[45:22] transition from bite-sized Fast Food
[45:25] calorie dense [ __ ] slippery loud porn
[45:29] two it's like how do we rewire the brain
[45:31] right how do we move one step at a time
[45:33] from this to this and because like like
[45:36] the word erotic seems so powerful to me
[45:38] it's about anticipation even when we
[45:40] talk about you know differences between
[45:42] male and in female sexuality the the lag
[45:45] time of parasympathetic activation in
[45:47] foreplay is so much more important
[45:50] biologically and correct me if I'm wrong
[45:51] here um uh for women than it is for men
[45:54] I mean we're like kind of ready to go
[45:56] and we want to make it short and and so
[45:58] I think like it's almost like a part of
[46:00] that sexual education is in
[46:02] understanding okay how can we teach men
[46:04] to be erotic again instead of these like
[46:09] very like chicken nugget style highly
[46:12] processed like this is what I think it
[46:13] is maybe watch some of Erica's film when
[46:16] we talk about watching pornography with
[46:18] your partner I wonder if that is the
[46:20] rule of the exception to the rule you
[46:21] know because I yeah I mean so you're
[46:24] saying what do we do I think we have an
[46:25] erotic film watch party
[46:27] right we have anime watch parties we
[46:29] have different kinds of watch parties
[46:31] like this thought had never occurred to
[46:32] me before I'm sure it is a terrible
[46:35] idea on that point though if you reduce
[46:37] the stigma by having these watch parties
[46:39] um does that then because you cited
[46:42] earlier that it's a tool for emotional
[46:44] regulation so when people are stressed
[46:45] or depressed or anxious they seek it out
[46:48] if we remove the stigma does that
[46:50] increase the addiction so it's a great
[46:52] question so I think there's it kind of
[46:54] goes both ways and what I mean by that
[46:55] is see we run into addictions when this
[47:00] substance becomes or or behavior becomes
[47:03] one to one correlated with something
[47:05] else so right now the problem with
[47:07] pornography isn't that it it yeah it's
[47:11] so the problem is if I watch pornography
[47:13] and that's the only method I use to
[47:15] regulate my emotions that will increase
[47:17] the addiction now the flip side of it is
[47:19] also true if the only reason I watch
[47:22] pornography is to regulate my emotions
[47:25] that will strengthen that addiction
[47:27] capability so I'll give you all just a
[47:28] simple example from like alcohol right
[47:30] so if I use alcohol after A Hard Day's
[47:33] Work to get through the day and calm
[47:35] down and then I stop drinking for fun
[47:38] whereas alcohol can be used as an
[47:40] emotional coping mechanism or it can be
[47:42] used to celebrate a wedding right so the
[47:47] substance can be used in different ways
[47:50] and the more that we use it in different
[47:52] ways in healthier ways the more it
[47:54] actually chips away at the addiction in
[47:56] some cases this is also highly
[47:57] individualized so depending on your
[47:59] genetic predisposition dispositions and
[48:01] stuff like that you know you may not be
[48:02] able to drink at weddings but we also
[48:04] see the opposite which is like you know
[48:06] a huge number of people are qualify for
[48:08] an alcohol addiction in college and then
[48:10] most of those people are able to develop
[48:12] healthy relationships with it and one of
[48:15] the biggest changes we're seeing in
[48:16] addiction is that there do seem to be
[48:18] healthy relationships that we can
[48:20] develop I think it's about changing our
[48:22] relationship to the thing now seeing
[48:25] someone naked engaging in a sexual act
[48:28] is not solely about getting off it's not
[48:30] solely about emotional regulation it's
[48:32] not solely about dopamine it can now
[48:34] become a film experience that we can
[48:36] enjoy so we're diversifying our
[48:39] relationship to the object I don't know
[48:43] if that makes sense psychoanalytic
[48:45] awareness mindfulness understanding of
[48:48] other of how you use that how you and
[48:50] then I I think this is also great like
[48:52] just the simple idea that like if dudes
[48:54] are watching this recognizing watching
[48:57] an erotic film with your significant
[48:59] other assuming a heteronormative a
[49:00] heterosexual relationship you know may
[49:03] be a great way for you to enhance your
[49:06] sexual experience you don't need dick
[49:09] enhancing pills or or you know whatever
[49:11] else right like because that's and I'm
[49:13] sure Dr mik knows better than I do but
[49:15] you the majority of the no I I meant
[49:17] more as a
[49:19] year I didn't think that but
[49:21] okay no no so so like you know my
[49:24] understanding from med school right so
[49:25] back when I was doing Urology and I I
[49:27] work with some things like vaginismus
[49:29] and stuff like that yeah um is you know
[49:31] the majority of the female nerve endings
[49:33] are are you know at the front end of the
[49:35] vagina and if you get all the way back
[49:37] to the cervix that's like painful so you
[49:40] don't actually need a gigantic penis I
[49:43] was trying to think about whether I
[49:44] should use some other word but you know
[49:47] and and so to help like you know if men
[49:51] are the ones who are primarily having
[49:52] this addictive problem then let's call
[49:54] it what it is which is help men realize
[49:56] that sex ual pleasure engaging in a
[49:58] relationship that pornography can be a
[50:01] force for good and doesn't necessarily
[50:03] have to be evil but and maybe like
[50:05] erotic film moves Us in that direction
[50:08] and like I just got to say man like my
[50:10] degenerate male brain is kind of telling
[50:11] me like you know watching an erotic film
[50:13] for an hour and a half could be the best
[50:15] and easiest foreplay that I could ever
[50:18] do would be a lot easier yeah pretty
[50:21] quick um but I would say the other thing
[50:23] I've been thinking about while we've
[50:24] been talking about this is we don't talk
[50:26] about erotic audio literature or erotic
[50:29] books which is more commonly used by
[50:33] women but we don't stigmatize that like
[50:35] women are like oh I love these books and
[50:36] I read them all the time and nobody is
[50:38] sitting here saying like it's bad I know
[50:40] thoughts on that because it's not naked
[50:42] bodies I guess here the main problem
[50:45] again is back to to our bodies we are
[50:48] somehow ashamed of our bodies of our
[50:50] nakedness of our
[50:52] sexuality I mean women can show nipples
[50:55] online we know that uh you can I I mean
[50:58] I'm heavily censured I can't show
[51:01] anything on my accounts my my social
[51:04] media accounts are cut off all the time
[51:07] it's impossible to grow do you think
[51:09] pornography should be bound on social
[51:10] media Dr K should pornography be banned
[51:13] on social media yes pornography should
[51:16] be banned I can answer that I'm I'm I'm
[51:18] making it I definitely think it should
[51:20] be banned but I don't that the explicit
[51:24] images should be banned but the right to
[51:27] discuss about it to talk about it to
[51:31] give uh sexual advice or to you know
[51:36] discuss different topics around
[51:38] sexuality we should be allowed to do
[51:41] that we should be allowed well we're
[51:43] allowed to do that no I get I get banned
[51:45] too really cuz this doesn't get banned
[51:46] maybe you are allowed to YouTube is
[51:48] different Twitter's fine Instagram's
[51:51] fine YouTube's fine Instagram Instagram
[51:54] I have Ted Talks that are censured so
[51:57] only people who are over 18 and have an
[52:00] account online have access to watch
[52:03] watch them and it's me
[52:05] talking yeah no it there is definitely
[52:08] uh limitations the thing that we've
[52:10] noticed is your video just doesn't
[52:12] appear in search in the same way but
[52:15] they still recommend the video so when
[52:16] we had for example Andrew huberman on a
[52:18] couple of weeks ago and he talked about
[52:19] pornography because PA was in the title
[52:21] in the thumbnail the video got huge
[52:23] recommendations by the algorithm but if
[52:25] you typed in Andrew hub
[52:27] it would not come up until we CH took
[52:28] the word porn out and you type in Andrew
[52:30] hubman and it comes up so that's the
[52:32] only we've noticed but we've been quite
[52:33] surprised actually
[52:34] by yeah I I think it's so cool that like
[52:37] you know you asked me that question and
[52:38] she jumped in with an answer no no I
[52:40] think it's good I I think it's like
[52:41] because you asked I mean I think that's
[52:43] the value of this right because my I I
[52:45] don't feel nearly as passionate I mean
[52:46] you asked her the question you know is
[52:48] it which of these is the best and I
[52:50] jumped in with an answer I was like this
[52:51] is clear to me and and I I think just a
[52:54] couple of things that I just want to
[52:56] touch on the first is that um you know
[52:58] what Dr bollock was saying about you
[53:00] know audio Literature Like erotic
[53:02] fiction or romance novels right so I I
[53:04] think it's harder to commoditize that
[53:06] which goes back to Erica's point of of
[53:08] you know like some things are more
[53:10] likely to be turned into fast food so I
[53:14] think that erotic literature it's like
[53:16] harder to do that um I also do think
[53:19] that going back to this earlier point of
[53:20] like you know men are epidemiologically
[53:23] more vulnerable to addiction I think
[53:24] it's more complicated than that in
[53:27] just psychological hurt or problems
[53:30] manifest in men as addiction and look
[53:32] different in in women when it emerges um
[53:35] so I think it's kind of like you know so
[53:37] we're we're sort of seeing a difference
[53:40] in addictive quality it's easier to
[53:42] commoditize more sensory organs uh so I
[53:45] think that's an important point and I I
[53:47] think in terms of you know should it be
[53:48] banned or not like I don't know um so I
[53:52] work kind of like more at the individual
[53:54] level and arguably some at scale but
[53:56] like like one of the key things is you
[53:58] know I have some ideas about what should
[53:59] be done but I I'm not too sure about
[54:01] that I'm I'm curious you know I I don't
[54:03] know like I no but I'm saying it
[54:05] basically because it's open for kids
[54:07] again this is why I'm saying if if we're
[54:10] having social media and it's for people
[54:12] 18 about then we're talking about
[54:15] another thing but go to Twitter or it's
[54:17] not called Twitter anymore uh the X go
[54:21] there and it's full of porn it is it is
[54:25] it is full of porn you can you
[54:27] accidentally stumble across porn I was
[54:29] saying this to my partner a couple of
[54:31] weeks ago I said look at how Twitter's
[54:32] changed and I said watch this scroll
[54:34] down my timeline and I know there's ALG
[54:35] so if I dwell on something more often
[54:36] then it's going to show me more but I
[54:38] scroll
[54:39] down I scroll down I was like look porn
[54:42] and I was like oh look she's taking her
[54:43] close of scroll scroll scroll I didn't
[54:45] realize it was new to the it didn't
[54:46] happen I've actually not seen it but
[54:48] I've had many people who tell me that it
[54:50] comes up on their feet all the time
[54:52] recent change to the algorithm which is
[54:54] prioritized again um View time so if you
[54:57] want to want people to dwell longer show
[54:59] them video Extreme video people being
[55:01] shot someone being hit by a car fights
[55:02] pornography wow you increase your dwell
[55:04] time you increase your advertising and
[55:06] this is just how incentives play out so
[55:08] much of the discussion we've had today
[55:09] and much of my
[55:11] like why I refer to it sometimes as
[55:13] being idealistic because sometimes it
[55:15] can sound like just give them
[55:16] broccoli when actually if you leave them
[55:18] to their own devices no one's going to
[55:19] want broccoli they're going to take the
[55:21] cookies if the cookies are available and
[55:22] If you equate this to food we did put
[55:26] labels on food to say look this has got
[55:28] this much calories in it we've put a
[55:29] sugar tax on sugar in the UK we you on
[55:32] cigarettes we say if you smoke these
[55:34] cigarettes this is what's going to
[55:35] happen to your lungs and we put explicit
[55:36] images of how your lungs will get you
[55:38] know cancers and things like this should
[55:40] we be doing something similar with
[55:41] pornography because part of me goes just
[55:44] you know saying we should just give them
[55:45] broccoli this kind of like erotic
[55:47] different point they're not going to
[55:48] they're not going to eat it no but but
[55:50] but also again adults I think they have
[55:53] the right to watch pornography
[55:56] whatever kind of pornography it is as
[55:58] long as it's legal and and and well done
[56:02] I wish all pornography would be
[56:04] ethically produced I know that the
[56:06] industry is working towards more
[56:09] standards Etc because you know we have
[56:12] been as a society talking about it they
[56:14] don't have much of a choice because if
[56:17] they don't go that way should we should
[56:19] we tell them about the harms of
[56:20] pornography at the point of consumption
[56:22] like we do with
[56:23] cigarettes it's a bit difficult Maybe
[56:26] maybe I I think we should we should talk
[56:29] about what could happen like gambling
[56:32] what effects like like gambling like but
[56:36] but this also happens you you've been
[56:38] talking about gaming a lot you know
[56:40] there's a way of of gaming and healthy
[56:43] gaming right there's a way of video
[56:44] games that is too much and not too much
[56:47] I what do you think don't okay yeah so I
[56:50] mean I think it's it's a great question
[56:51] so I've got like um a couple of
[56:53] different things so I'm going to about
[56:54] to contradict myself so the first is
[56:56] that we know that you know putting
[56:57] warning labels on things does move
[56:59] things in the right direction but I love
[57:01] to just share a story so when I was a
[57:03] medical student didn't really understand
[57:04] much about medicine or Psychiatry or
[57:06] humans um you know I had a patient who
[57:09] came in and was smoking and so I I came
[57:11] in and I was like you know he came in I
[57:12] was like a first year medical student so
[57:14] I was like I'm gonna be a doctor one day
[57:16] and so this person comes in I'm like sir
[57:18] do you know that smoking is dangerous it
[57:20] can cause lung cancer it can do this it
[57:21] can do this it can do this so the
[57:23] person's like yeah you know oh like that
[57:24] sounds bad I don't want L cancer I was
[57:26] like great we're going to give you like
[57:28] a prescription to help you quit and you
[57:30] can get a nicotine patch and like I was
[57:31] like I'm going to be a doctor one day so
[57:33] month later guy comes in and like I ask
[57:35] him how's the quitting smoking going and
[57:37] he's like well I I'm still smoking and
[57:39] then I was like I don't think you
[57:40] understand man it increases risk of
[57:41] heart disease and stroke and all these
[57:43] kinds of things like it's going to like
[57:45] do all this kind of stuff and he's like
[57:47] yeah oh that's bad I don't want any of
[57:49] that stuff and I was like cool so like
[57:50] you're going to quit right and he's like
[57:52] yeah and so I then he comes in and I I
[57:55] comes in the next month he still hasn't
[57:56] quit and I started to try to figure out
[57:58] what's going on right so one of the key
[58:00] things that we learned is that if you
[58:01] want someone to eat broccoli instead of
[58:05] cookies um telling them that cookies are
[58:08] unhealthy for you isn't good enough so
[58:10] we need generally speaking when you look
[58:11] at recovery from addiction and
[58:13] behavioral change you have to have a
[58:15] good enough reason to do it yeah so I
[58:18] was still blunt and I figured this out
[58:20] and talk to my my preceptor and stuff
[58:22] and then I asked this person so what's
[58:24] important to you and he's like oh you
[58:25] know I love my daughter
[58:26] and then I asked them a very bad
[58:28] question I was like when you and he was
[58:30] like I was like what you know tell me
[58:31] about your daughters and he was like you
[58:32] know I can't wait like I'll know I can
[58:34] die a happy person once I've walked them
[58:36] down the aisle and I they're married and
[58:38] stuff like that and then I asked him a
[58:39] question I was like when you walk down
[58:40] the aisle do you want to be carrying an
[58:42] oxygen tank behind you and he was like
[58:45] what I was like if you keep smoking
[58:46] that's what's going to happen or maybe
[58:47] you'll be in a wheelchair right so I was
[58:49] a first year medical student kind of
[58:51] brutal but that actually sunk in you
[58:53] have to connect with people with what
[58:54] they care about yeah that is still a
[58:57] warning though isn't it you've put a
[58:58] warning on that Absol but it's it's it's
[59:00] a little different right so so it's
[59:02] individualized but even now when we you
[59:04] know I'm I stream on Twitch and I try to
[59:06] get people to stop playing video games
[59:08] which is like holding an AA meeting in a
[59:10] bar and what I've discovered is I'm with
[59:12] you we've lost a lot of faith in
[59:15] humanity if you give them a broccoli and
[59:17] a cookie they're going to take a cookie
[59:18] but I I'm still hopeful I think that we
[59:21] do see the number one search is how do I
[59:23] quit porn there's a lot of energy in
[59:26] desire to do it they just don't have a
[59:28] path and I think one of these very
[59:30] simple things is like emphasizing an
[59:32] erotic film and telling people hey if
[59:34] you're lonely hey if you're having
[59:36] trouble finding a relationship you know
[59:38] hey if you're if you have a problem with
[59:40] premature ejaculation or you're having
[59:42] difficulty engaging in a sexual act and
[59:44] can't achieve orgasm what you need to do
[59:47] is slow it down don't make sex a three
[59:50] minute jiggly slippery experience slow
[59:54] it down watch an erotic film reprogram
[59:57] your brain like I bet you money that if
[59:59] we somehow figured out if we told people
[01:00:01] you can reprogram your brain by watching
[01:00:03] erotic film and we could say that
[01:00:06] scientifically that would be incredibly
[01:00:08] successful because I think people are
[01:00:10] hungry for this right they're hungry for
[01:00:11] what we were biologically designed to do
[01:00:13] which is connect and have fulfilling
[01:00:15] sexual relationships what's your take on
[01:00:18] that Dr yeah I think that that's that
[01:00:20] would be helpful absolutely because I
[01:00:22] think's telling someone to go cold
[01:00:23] turkey from having something that they
[01:00:26] do derive pleasure from right even if
[01:00:28] they're even if they have addictive
[01:00:29] potential addictive personalities
[01:00:31] towards that behavior then giving them
[01:00:34] something else that they can still
[01:00:35] derive pleasure from and have the the
[01:00:38] benefits of orgasm and have the benefits
[01:00:39] of feeling that desire and enjoyment is
[01:00:42] is a really great way when you tell
[01:00:44] someone you take something away that
[01:00:45] they've used as a crutch potentially and
[01:00:47] they have nothing to replace it with and
[01:00:50] I you know we've talked about this far
[01:00:51] giving people a purpose a lot of times
[01:00:53] people don't have purpose and so they're
[01:00:55] they're like they have nothing else to
[01:00:56] do and they're like oh I'll just do this
[01:00:58] thing because I'm bored and that's one
[01:00:59] of the reasons people watch porn is
[01:01:01] because they're bored and so you give
[01:01:03] them a purpose something else to do
[01:01:05] whether it's an erotic film or actually
[01:01:07] purpose in their life um maybe it's
[01:01:09] meeting people outside in the real world
[01:01:11] which would be even better that would
[01:01:12] help our our issues with not getting
[01:01:14] married having high divorce rates and
[01:01:16] not having kids right but like I think
[01:01:17] those would be great Solutions if we
[01:01:19] could come up with ways to get people to
[01:01:21] either find a substitute or find purpose
[01:01:25] interestingly there's clearly a two-way
[01:01:26] relationship with purpose porn
[01:01:28] motivation Etc so it we giving them a
[01:01:31] purpose one might say well then we stop
[01:01:32] porn because then I'll have more
[01:01:34] motivation to put their shoes on yeah so
[01:01:36] I I think you know if you look at
[01:01:38] there's one study that showed the two
[01:01:40] strongest variables with pornography
[01:01:41] addiction or a sense of meaninglessness
[01:01:43] in in life and I forget what the other
[01:01:46] variable is maybe early age of exposure
[01:01:49] um but so I I I think it's it's kind of
[01:01:51] spoton right so when I don't have a life
[01:01:53] that's worth living what happens my body
[01:01:56] and my brain become squeeze bottles of
[01:01:59] dopamine because what is the joy of life
[01:02:01] so I try to just extract as much
[01:02:04] dopamine as I can for my brain so that I
[01:02:06] have some joy in the day some kind of
[01:02:08] pleasure and then I watch more of this
[01:02:11] mass-produced supernormal stimulus
[01:02:13] pornography because that squeezes more
[01:02:15] dopamine out of my neurotransmitters and
[01:02:18] the more that my life becomes that now
[01:02:21] there's a moral component now I feel
[01:02:23] ashamed now if I remember looking at
[01:02:25] some statistics on online dating
[01:02:27] profiles and like saying that you're a
[01:02:29] dude who watches porn is like an instant
[01:02:31] no but if I'm watching pornography it's
[01:02:33] going to sap me of the motivation to
[01:02:35] pursue my purpose absolutely so if I'm
[01:02:36] extracting all my dopamine through
[01:02:38] watching pornography I'm going to have
[01:02:40] none left for Behavioral reinforcement
[01:02:44] from other activities so what reading
[01:02:47] books becomes not as much fun going to a
[01:02:50] park becomes not as much fun so it's
[01:02:52] absolutely this vicious cycle where
[01:02:54] meaninglessness I have no reason to do
[01:02:56] anything all day so I might as well
[01:02:57] watch some porn not erotic film so we
[01:03:00] canel porn then
[01:03:03] no so
[01:03:05] please let us have it yeah I I don't
[01:03:08] know I mean the on you're done the
[01:03:10] majority of my income and why brand
[01:03:12] would collapse if you started Bing so
[01:03:15] short no I mean I think there I think we
[01:03:18] have to I I mean I think there's a lot
[01:03:20] of things we've talked about but I think
[01:03:22] sexual education I think understanding
[01:03:25] that you know explaining to younger kids
[01:03:29] of what they're watching right I think
[01:03:30] adults have a little bit more um their
[01:03:33] brains are fully developed they
[01:03:34] understand what they're watching they
[01:03:35] know it's a produced product they
[01:03:37] presumably have already gone through the
[01:03:39] process of finding a job and doing other
[01:03:41] things that give them purpose maybe they
[01:03:42] have children maybe they have a family
[01:03:44] right but but the I think it's really in
[01:03:46] that Young Generation they're finding
[01:03:48] themselves maybe they're going out and
[01:03:49] they're not finding a partner because we
[01:03:52] know that there's less people coupling
[01:03:53] there's higher you know Mis match of
[01:03:56] expectations we've talked about that too
[01:03:57] in terms of dating and so you know it's
[01:04:01] it's very easy for those people when
[01:04:02] they're still trying to figure out what
[01:04:03] to do with their lives to fall into
[01:04:05] something like that and I think if we
[01:04:06] really focus on that generation I think
[01:04:10] and that's a generation that probably
[01:04:11] shouldn't be watching porn anyways right
[01:04:13] um and and I think that would make huge
[01:04:15] a huge difference and help parents
[01:04:17] because parents are really really
[01:04:19] worried how' you do it I mean you you
[01:04:22] there's many way of kind of of of of
[01:04:24] starting it but but they what they need
[01:04:26] to know really is that you are there for
[01:04:29] them you are open if they have any kind
[01:04:32] of of Doubt situations you are going to
[01:04:35] be there for them this is not a subject
[01:04:38] that you are going to you know bail out
[01:04:41] because you feel too ashamed or you
[01:04:43] can't handle difficult questions I would
[01:04:46] tell parents educate yourself if you're
[01:04:49] having kids you're going to have to talk
[01:04:50] to them about sex if you didn't get
[01:04:53] education what age you need to start
[01:04:55] when really really young you need to
[01:04:56] start when they're learning language I
[01:04:58] mean young kids today many of them they
[01:05:00] don't know the difference between a
[01:05:02] vagina and a vulva even Billy ish in an
[01:05:05] interview came out saying that she
[01:05:07] wanted to put her face in in people's
[01:05:09] vaginas no and you go what what happened
[01:05:13] you're talking about vulva girl you know
[01:05:15] yeah no it has to start from I
[01:05:18] completely agree with everything you're
[01:05:19] saying I have kids I've talked to them
[01:05:20] about sex I think you you have to start
[01:05:23] early with at least knowing the anatomy
[01:05:25] right knowing what their body parts are
[01:05:26] and what the body parts of are of the
[01:05:28] opposite gender um so that they know
[01:05:30] that they're different and and all that
[01:05:32] stuff and then honestly being open
[01:05:34] they're going to ask you questions like
[01:05:35] it's kids are curious and so they'll
[01:05:37] come home and be like what's this what's
[01:05:38] that and not being like oh no no no I'm
[01:05:40] not going to talk about that it's just
[01:05:41] like okay yeah let's have a conversation
[01:05:43] about it and let's talk about it and
[01:05:44] realize that it's not going to be one
[01:05:45] conversation it's going to be like
[01:05:47] throughout their development as they
[01:05:49] become older you're going to maybe
[01:05:51] introduce more topics or they may have a
[01:05:52] question for you and just never shaming
[01:05:55] that and that can come even early right
[01:05:57] kids are masturbting babies are
[01:05:59] masturbating like as young that's a
[01:06:01] soothing Behavior right and so sometimes
[01:06:03] you'll see your child doing it you don't
[01:06:05] want to shame them right because that's
[01:06:07] already setting up that stage of Shame
[01:06:09] so sort of allow being like okay that's
[01:06:12] that's fine that you're doing that but
[01:06:12] maybe do that in private and that's
[01:06:14] something that you do in private um but
[01:06:16] you know I think it's really important
[01:06:17] to have these conversations and it's
[01:06:18] uncomfortable it's going to be
[01:06:19] uncomfortable and know that it's going
[01:06:21] to be uncomfortable but like we have a
[01:06:22] duty cuz they're not going to learn it
[01:06:24] at school in the way or enough in school
[01:06:28] yeah so I I I completely agree with what
[01:06:29] they said so it's really interesting
[01:06:31] because the number one question so when
[01:06:32] we started talk working with Gamers what
[01:06:35] happened very quickly is parents started
[01:06:36] reaching out and they're like hey I have
[01:06:38] a son who's got this problem usually a
[01:06:40] son sometimes a daughter 7030 and um how
[01:06:44] do I talk to them so we actually started
[01:06:46] doing a study in 2020 2020 or 2021 where
[01:06:50] we started developing different kinds of
[01:06:52] techniques and measuring what worked
[01:06:53] best so now we have four years of data
[01:06:56] um a lot of those findings went into the
[01:06:58] book about how to raise a healthy gamer
[01:07:00] which is actually all about
[01:07:01] conversational techniques for parents
[01:07:04] about how to talk to their kids so for
[01:07:06] four years here are the biggest
[01:07:08] takeaways uh so that book is like it's
[01:07:10] conversational techniques about video
[01:07:11] game addiction but we find that this
[01:07:13] works really well for pornography too so
[01:07:15] the first is uh like Dr mik said um
[01:07:19] multiple conversation so the first
[01:07:20] mistake that parents make is that they
[01:07:22] think that they have to get it all in in
[01:07:24] one conversation talk
[01:07:27] no it's it's lots of them second thing
[01:07:30] start earlier than you think you need to
[01:07:32] yeah so one of the biggest principles
[01:07:33] that we learn in in you know medicine is
[01:07:36] that you don't have endof life
[01:07:38] conversations when someone is dying you
[01:07:40] have to have the conversation before
[01:07:42] it's an issue so I I think we were
[01:07:44] talking about you said what 64% of
[01:07:46] people get exposed to pornography at the
[01:07:47] age of 11 right so accidentally accident
[01:07:50] still but so that what that tell parents
[01:07:52] think oh I like I can push this off and
[01:07:54] wait until they're 14 or
[01:07:56] and and of course my Beta is not going
[01:07:57] to watch right oh he's good he's so good
[01:08:01] not my Beta KS right yeah not in our
[01:08:05] house yeah and you I I noticed you said
[01:08:07] you talked to your kids about sex have
[01:08:08] you talked to them about porn yeah okay
[01:08:10] my older one my older one nice good job
[01:08:12] thank you um your beta is going to be so
[01:08:15] good so so I think it's going to be
[01:08:17] multiple conversations start earlier
[01:08:19] than you need to and then there are a
[01:08:20] couple of really nice techniques that
[01:08:22] you can use so the first is asking
[01:08:23] open-ended questions and not about you
[01:08:25] watch porn it can start with hey are are
[01:08:28] you familiar with what pornography is do
[01:08:30] you know what it is what do you
[01:08:32] understand about pornography another
[01:08:34] really good evidence-based technique
[01:08:36] which has been shown to be effective for
[01:08:37] talking about drugs is do you have
[01:08:40] friends who watch porn do you have
[01:08:42] friends do you know people or kids in
[01:08:44] your school watching this yes or no what
[01:08:47] do you think about that so oftentimes
[01:08:49] you don't want to ask the kid directly
[01:08:51] you want to ask about what's happening
[01:08:53] around you and then you can ask them
[01:08:55] what do you think about that do you have
[01:08:57] questions so make yourself a resource
[01:09:01] and signal to them that hey we can have
[01:09:03] this
[01:09:04] conversation and it's preparing them for
[01:09:07] the world really it's giving them the
[01:09:09] tools to be able to manage situations
[01:09:12] that will come up because sex is not
[01:09:15] easy and they're going to be in
[01:09:17] difficult moments and if they have been
[01:09:20] prepared they're going to know better
[01:09:22] how to respond to those moments you know
[01:09:25] if they're watching that pornography
[01:09:26] though the type that's available on
[01:09:28] those tube streaming sites do you
[01:09:30] believe that it will cause or lead to a
[01:09:32] rise in violence between men and women
[01:09:36] because when I look at some of the
[01:09:37] statistics around this nearly one in
[01:09:39] three porn videos contains physical
[01:09:41] violence and almost 90% of the most
[01:09:43] famous porn scenes are violence scenes
[01:09:45] 18 to 21 year olds out of 18 to 21 year
[01:09:48] olds 179% had seen pornography involving
[01:09:52] sexual violence when they were children
[01:09:53] and almost 50% of young people say girls
[01:09:56] expect sex to involve physical
[01:09:58] aggression such as Airway restriction
[01:10:01] and according to a study in
[01:10:03] 2024 um of 18 to 35 year olds they found
[01:10:07] that 57% of young people aged um from 18
[01:10:10] to 35 had been strangled themselves
[01:10:12] during sex and 51% had been strangled um
[01:10:16] at least once during sex and my last
[01:10:19] stat on this is the BBC revealed that
[01:10:22] 38% of women under the age of 40 have
[01:10:24] experienced un wanted slapping choking
[01:10:26] and gagging during consensual sex and
[01:10:28] 42% of these women said they felt
[01:10:31] pressured or coerced into doing it so we
[01:10:33] can allow people to watch pornography
[01:10:36] but is there not a risk that at a very
[01:10:37] young age at the age of 11 we're going
[01:10:39] to learn that sex is a violent act and
[01:10:41] that's going to make us more violent G
[01:10:43] to start with you yeah this is a really
[01:10:45] important discussion and I think you
[01:10:47] know I actually spoke to De Debbie
[01:10:48] herban who leads a lot of the studies on
[01:10:50] strangulation and so basically what they
[01:10:52] found is that very commonly Young people
[01:10:56] College age students are having
[01:10:57] strangulation or during intercourse or
[01:11:00] during for plane it's become so common
[01:11:02] that it's almost like kissing right like
[01:11:04] this is something that is so common and
[01:11:06] often consent is not being discussed or
[01:11:08] like hey can I do this yeah it's all
[01:11:09] right but it's not like a real
[01:11:11] discussion and as you guys all know and
[01:11:13] especially asphixiation can lead to loss
[01:11:16] of oxygen to the brain and and sort of a
[01:11:18] whole host of things and so I think
[01:11:19] ultimately that is a concern for sure in
[01:11:23] terms of um you know we have in movies
[01:11:25] for a reason right like we don't show
[01:11:27] our kids like the boys for example on
[01:11:30] Netflix right because it's very violent
[01:11:32] and so similarly we would like to have
[01:11:34] ratings on pornography and they
[01:11:36] shouldn't have access to it but
[01:11:38] sometimes they see it now uh yeah that
[01:11:40] is a concern I don't know exactly how to
[01:11:42] rectify that maybe you have some
[01:11:43] thoughts is that because we want it
[01:11:45] though earlier on you said a porn is
[01:11:46] there because we we want it so I'm
[01:11:48] thinking isn't strangulation in porn
[01:11:49] because that's the type of porn that
[01:11:50] people want so there is you know some
[01:11:53] people who derive pleasure from is you
[01:11:55] know from a temporary occlusion of uh of
[01:11:59] of breath right and so there is some
[01:12:02] people who enjoy that erotically but
[01:12:04] that doesn't mean that that's Universal
[01:12:06] and um and again it's fantasy so just
[01:12:09] because you watch something on
[01:12:10] pornography doesn't mean that you should
[01:12:11] be doing it it's a fantasy um it's not
[01:12:14] real life and that's in a hopefully a
[01:12:17] controlled safe situation where they're
[01:12:18] producing that pornography but I think
[01:12:20] it's very important when we're starting
[01:12:22] to talk about sexual violence towards
[01:12:24] women that we understand that that
[01:12:27] doesn't come from porn that existed long
[01:12:32] before porn sexual violence towards
[01:12:35] women is a systemic problem we have in
[01:12:39] our society and we all know that the
[01:12:43] most dangerous place for a woman is her
[01:12:46] own home it's her own husband or her
[01:12:50] boyfriend or her relatives around her
[01:12:53] Etc so the way I see it porn reflects
[01:12:57] the values we have in our society I
[01:13:00] think I see porn a bit as a mirror of
[01:13:02] many of the of of of the values in our
[01:13:05] society amongst them sexual violence
[01:13:08] towards women but then it's also true
[01:13:11] obviously that nowadays as porn has
[01:13:14] become more popular we're getting into a
[01:13:17] bigger problem right where their
[01:13:20] attitudes are also provoked by what they
[01:13:24] are seeing so now it's not that easy
[01:13:26] anymore to say that porn is just a
[01:13:28] reflection because obviously they also
[01:13:31] learn from what they see and then they
[01:13:34] go into their own lives and they try to
[01:13:36] reproduce what they have learned on
[01:13:39] online and that's in that case then if I
[01:13:41] watch violent pornography when I meet my
[01:13:44] partner at 15 16 18 21 I'm going to have
[01:13:48] this expectation that pornography looks
[01:13:50] certain I'm going to think sex has to be
[01:13:52] performed in this way where I choke them
[01:13:53] I hit them I but or whatever they
[01:13:56] whatever because that's the only sexual
[01:13:57] education I've had and I got it from
[01:13:59] Twitter for example so that in that case
[01:14:01] it will lead to sexual violence unwanted
[01:14:03] SE not necessarily it will lead to that
[01:14:06] uh it might lead to a curiosity of
[01:14:10] trying it out because 42% of women said
[01:14:14] that they have been uh felt they were
[01:14:17] pressured or coerced into slapping
[01:14:20] choking or being gagged yeah and I think
[01:14:22] many women also feel coerced just to
[01:14:25] have regular sex many times in their own
[01:14:27] marriages what do you think Dr K so so
[01:14:31] many thoughts and and agree that this is
[01:14:33] a a very important discussion so like I
[01:14:35] was kind of curious about this because
[01:14:37] I've noticed there's this rise in like
[01:14:39] asphixiation so the first question that
[01:14:40] I asked is like why are people doing
[01:14:42] this so what I found is there's once
[01:14:44] again not randomized control trials that
[01:14:45] we're going to take 100 people split
[01:14:47] them into two groups and you're G to you
[01:14:49] know and so the first thing is the
[01:14:51] physiology is actually like fascinating
[01:14:53] so the I know this is gonna sound random
[01:14:55] we don't really know exactly what's
[01:14:56] going on but so it's really interesting
[01:14:58] because if you look at states of
[01:14:59] meditation right so these are states of
[01:15:01] like Bliss so something changes in our
[01:15:04] brain when we're in a meditative State
[01:15:05] now what the hell does that have to do
[01:15:06] with asphixiation so one of the most
[01:15:08] common trends of esoteric and deeply
[01:15:11] spiritual meditation practices are a
[01:15:13] very low respiratory rate right so one
[01:15:16] practice that I did had a respiratory
[01:15:18] rate of one breath every eight minutes
[01:15:21] so that's like you know the regular
[01:15:22] respiratory rate is 13 to 14 times a
[01:15:24] minute so what we know is that when the
[01:15:27] brain runs out of oxygen as long as we
[01:15:29] don't damage it and that's the big
[01:15:30] problem with this asfixiation is that
[01:15:32] there's no consent there's no
[01:15:33] preparation people feel coerced into it
[01:15:35] what we know in meditation is that a
[01:15:37] high CO2 level and a low O2 level cause
[01:15:41] alterations in the brain that will
[01:15:44] probably lead to something like a
[01:15:45] psychedelic experience a blissful
[01:15:47] experience things like that so when when
[01:15:49] we're talking about asphixiation
[01:15:51] something is going on in the brain where
[01:15:52] we're altering the State of
[01:15:53] Consciousness we're cutting off air flow
[01:15:55] to the the brain it can be lethal it can
[01:15:58] be damaging permanently damaging and
[01:16:01] something can change in the brain that
[01:16:03] will enhance the experience of sexuality
[01:16:07] that is exper that that people have so
[01:16:10] somewhere along the way people got into
[01:16:12] this idea I think the other thing the
[01:16:14] other B basic Trend that we're seeing is
[01:16:16] that we're getting sexually
[01:16:19] desensitized so if you look at um this
[01:16:22] is not just sexual but like if you look
[01:16:23] at you know pornography what tends to
[01:16:24] happen happen is what I find arousing
[01:16:27] will drift over time so I need to watch
[01:16:30] more and more hardcore porn to get the
[01:16:32] same level of arousal so there's also
[01:16:35] something that show there there's uh you
[01:16:37] know studies that show that If You're
[01:16:39] vulnerable to an addiction you're also
[01:16:42] vulnerable to risk-taking behavior so
[01:16:44] when you take when you engage in Risk
[01:16:47] what happens is like I don't know if
[01:16:49] this kind of makes sense but you know I
[01:16:50] I had a a a patient once who was working
[01:16:52] in a jail and he was telling me about
[01:16:53] when he commits a crime
[01:16:55] and what he loved he has a really bad
[01:16:57] ADHD and what he loves about committing
[01:16:59] a crime is he is completely dialed in
[01:17:02] because of the risk he has a survival
[01:17:05] reason to pay attention to every single
[01:17:07] detail he is so focused on the task and
[01:17:10] we know that things like flow States
[01:17:12] involve an intense amount of focus and
[01:17:14] so when we're taking a risk it's
[01:17:17] activating our dopamine way more we feel
[01:17:19] when I've talked to patients who engage
[01:17:21] in this kind of behavior they feel the
[01:17:23] most alive because of the danger so
[01:17:25] there's a lot of stuff that is being
[01:17:28] activated if it's done in a healthy way
[01:17:30] now there's all kinds of unhealthy stuff
[01:17:32] going on um I think the statistics kind
[01:17:35] of speak for themselves like my gut
[01:17:37] check is that while everyone it doesn't
[01:17:40] necessarily increase the risk for
[01:17:41] everyone I think we're seeing the
[01:17:42] intersectionality of a couple of things
[01:17:44] so the first thing is that men are angry
[01:17:47] so we have incels we have school
[01:17:49] Shooters um you know men are resentful
[01:17:52] towards women so I think part of the
[01:17:54] reason we're seeing this violence
[01:17:56] against women in the pornography is
[01:17:58] because there's an angry incel who's
[01:18:01] home alone who doesn't believe they're
[01:18:03] ever going to have sex believes that
[01:18:05] women are gatekeeping this and so the
[01:18:08] the the masculine predatory systemic I'm
[01:18:12] GNA teach this woman a lesson she
[01:18:15] doesn't get to say no to me so these
[01:18:17] kinds of feelings are being someone has
[01:18:21] figured out on a tube site that if I
[01:18:24] give men this fantasy they are going to
[01:18:27] watch it more and more and this is what
[01:18:28] we see punish [ __ ] of women we see
[01:18:32] punish [ __ ] of women all the time I'm
[01:18:34] going to destroy you I'm going to you
[01:18:36] know banging and smashing and and but
[01:18:39] you're saying that's a social problem
[01:18:40] not a porn industry problem well so I
[01:18:42] think what the porn industry is is doing
[01:18:44] yeah the porn industry is figuring out
[01:18:46] this is what all technology is doing the
[01:18:47] machine learning is figuring out machine
[01:18:48] learning is figuring it out so as you
[01:18:51] cited some statistic about you know
[01:18:53] sexual activity like more virin than
[01:18:55] ever before more sexual frustration than
[01:18:57] ever before more frustration with life
[01:19:00] than ever before and so let's give you
[01:19:02] this extreme thing that's chck Tech chck
[01:19:04] checking a couple of different boxes but
[01:19:07] interesting within this I heard
[01:19:09] something which is you basically have
[01:19:11] described softcore pornography as a
[01:19:14] gateway drug to hardcore pornography
[01:19:16] because the brain gets desensitized it
[01:19:17] looks for a bigger kick like it was
[01:19:19] heroin or something else you need a
[01:19:20] bigger more extreme experience to get
[01:19:22] the same high so if we start people on a
[01:19:24] porn the broccoli they're eventually
[01:19:27] going to get to the
[01:19:28] cookie that's a great assumption I think
[01:19:32] it's different because I think the
[01:19:35] desensitization hap it's different
[01:19:37] circuits of the brain there's a patience
[01:19:39] to it there's an emotional component to
[01:19:41] it so I don't think I I think you're
[01:19:43] right that if we talk about squeezing
[01:19:45] out dopamine could it be a gateway drug
[01:19:47] absolutely but part of the reason that
[01:19:49] in this moment I think it could be part
[01:19:51] of the solution is is erotic is moving
[01:19:53] away from dop erotic is not about the
[01:19:56] orgasm the dopamine is the orgasm erotic
[01:19:58] is about everything else except for the
[01:20:00] organism so even when I'm working with
[01:20:02] patients who have unhealthy
[01:20:03] relationships with sexuality the point
[01:20:06] is let's move away from orgasm let's
[01:20:08] recognize that the sexual act and
[01:20:10] speaking of the orgasm Gap if you're a
[01:20:12] dude you can have sex and not have an
[01:20:15] orgasm and it can still be a positive
[01:20:18] experience and this kind of goes back to
[01:20:20] the sexual violence what really scares
[01:20:22] me is that as people watch this stuff
[01:20:24] for whatever reason what's going to
[01:20:26] happen is they're going to start to
[01:20:27] think and I've seen this a lot recently
[01:20:29] it's amazing how much this is spiked how
[01:20:31] normalized this has become Oh I thought
[01:20:34] women liked it this is what I'm supposed
[01:20:36] to do right and then you feel coercion
[01:20:38] from the side of women I think it's
[01:20:41] interesting right I I wouldn't be
[01:20:42] surprised if I wouldn't be surprised and
[01:20:44] this is a bias in literature we ask do
[01:20:47] you feel women as a woman do you feel
[01:20:49] coerced into doing this I don't think we
[01:20:50] ever ask men do you feel pressured into
[01:20:52] doing this we don't even ask men what
[01:20:54] they feel coerced in because there not
[01:20:57] that many masculine scripts either of of
[01:21:00] of having sex there's basically one
[01:21:02] that's a great point and it's you know
[01:21:04] the penetrative
[01:21:07] sex machine that's the script we are why
[01:21:10] is that that must be a reflection of the
[01:21:13] demand well I think it's a reflection of
[01:21:15] who's making the content and who's been
[01:21:18] making even traditional media right like
[01:21:20] movies where you see how people have
[01:21:23] intimate acts even they're not showing
[01:21:25] the act right it's always ma penis and
[01:21:28] vagina within minutes the female orgasms
[01:21:31] and that's it right that's the whole
[01:21:32] thing that's not real life and it's been
[01:21:35] made by men I think it's this two-way
[01:21:38] dance really so I think there's there's
[01:21:40] a certain demand that exists because of
[01:21:43] whatever's going on in the world and
[01:21:45] then we meet that Demand with
[01:21:46] conversation which enhances sometimes
[01:21:48] the demand for that content or subject
[01:21:52] and it's this kind of two-way dance
[01:21:54] where there's more content about it so
[01:21:55] the demand increases and people get more
[01:21:57] interested in it and all sees rise you
[01:21:59] know yeah absolutely so I think that
[01:22:01] that's exactly what's going on here
[01:22:02] there's some preset demand but right now
[01:22:04] the problem is that the only people who
[01:22:07] are fulfilling that demand are making
[01:22:09] you know highly processed calorically
[01:22:12] densed you know orgasm masturbation
[01:22:15] focused pornography and we even see this
[01:22:18] in like other dimensions like if you
[01:22:19] look at literature right now you know
[01:22:21] the fantasy genre has so it has an an
[01:22:24] inje
[01:22:25] of female authors so fantasy has changed
[01:22:27] completely in the last 10 or 15 years ya
[01:22:30] has changed completely in the last 10 or
[01:22:31] 15 years I think maybe what we need is
[01:22:33] dudes writing romance novels and
[01:22:35] consumers they always have power
[01:22:37] remember that people who are watching
[01:22:39] porn they are part of this industry they
[01:22:42] are voting with their attention their
[01:22:45] time their clicks online hopefully with
[01:22:48] their money because everybody should pay
[01:22:51] for their porn because porn should not
[01:22:53] be out out there for free for
[01:22:56] anyone it's it's a people are working in
[01:23:00] this they are you know they have lives
[01:23:02] they have kids they have to pay their
[01:23:03] rent the food on the table their schools
[01:23:05] Etc we have to respect the work of those
[01:23:09] people sorry I couldn't help the laugh I
[01:23:11] just realized you said porn shouldn't be
[01:23:13] free we live in a world where food is
[01:23:15] not a human right water is not a human
[01:23:17] right Healthcare is not a human right
[01:23:18] but porn is free for everybody is porn
[01:23:20] free because it it's behind a different
[01:23:22] advertising it's just an advertising
[01:23:24] model which means you are the you are
[01:23:25] the product like so if you're consuming
[01:23:28] advert you're basically paying with your
[01:23:29] attention it's just a different currency
[01:23:30] we're paying with there's no porn that's
[01:23:32] free if you think about it fair enough
[01:23:35] you I mean yeah yeah you're paying with
[01:23:36] your attention either way you're looking
[01:23:37] at an advert beforehand you're scrolling
[01:23:39] past a display advert on the right hand
[01:23:40] side of the page or even on Twitter if
[01:23:42] you're on Twitter you're consuming ads
[01:23:44] when you stumble across porn it's a
[01:23:45] different advertising model but not the
[01:23:47] right people are getting the
[01:23:50] money the people making the content you
[01:23:52] mean exactly
[01:23:54] I mean it's the dealers who are getting
[01:23:56] it when you look at only fans
[01:23:58] interestingly 6.6 billion they made this
[01:24:00] year and about five billion of that went
[01:24:02] to the
[01:24:04] creators and that's you know only fans
[01:24:06] has been a real phenomenon in culture
[01:24:09] last couple years I mean if we look at
[01:24:11] the the porn industry so it changed a
[01:24:14] lot I've been in this industry now for
[01:24:15] 20 years when I started you know there
[01:24:18] was sites online pay sites tubes didn't
[01:24:22] exist Etc and then uh when only fans
[01:24:26] came around and when they become big in
[01:24:29] the pandemic they changed again the
[01:24:32] rules for this industry a bit and I do
[01:24:35] think that it's better that the people
[01:24:38] who are making it are receiving their
[01:24:43] you know customers directly Etc and that
[01:24:46] they can make decisions for themselves I
[01:24:49] think it's a good part of the industry
[01:24:52] that it works that way no fap a term I
[01:24:56] um only came across a couple of weeks
[01:24:58] ago this idea of noof FAP which is I
[01:25:00] believe and you clearly know much more
[01:25:02] about this than I do Dr K but um I
[01:25:04] believe the term is it's it's proposing
[01:25:07] a solution to the pornography challenge
[01:25:11] that some people have where you
[01:25:12] completely abstain from watching
[01:25:13] pornography and or masturbating at all
[01:25:16] um
[01:25:17] Reena if I recall and I don't want to
[01:25:20] mischaracterize your opinion here but I
[01:25:21] think when we spoke the first time on
[01:25:23] the podcast you made the case that
[01:25:25] masturbation does have positive impacts
[01:25:27] so what is your view on this idea of
[01:25:29] noof FAP yeah so I think the the
[01:25:33] movement it's so the idea of retaining
[01:25:36] from or abstaining from masturbation or
[01:25:39] watching pornography is a very
[01:25:41] individual one and it may have benefits
[01:25:43] for some people in terms of uh they may
[01:25:46] because if they're using these things in
[01:25:48] a negative way abstaining from them may
[01:25:49] allow them to have more control over
[01:25:51] other portions of their life but a lot
[01:25:53] of people will misinform people and say
[01:25:56] oh you're going to have a higher
[01:25:57] testosterone you're going to have all
[01:25:59] these physiologic changes which have not
[01:26:01] been born out in the literature there's
[01:26:02] like a very small study looking at men
[01:26:04] who abstained from um ejaculation for 21
[01:26:08] days that saw a very small minute
[01:26:10] increase in testosterone like 10 guys so
[01:26:13] it's not generalizable it's never been
[01:26:14] repeated um and testosterone varies as
[01:26:16] it is quite significantly over days and
[01:26:19] throughout the day and you know one day
[01:26:21] to the next so ultimately there's no
[01:26:23] evidence to support report the fact that
[01:26:25] abstaining from anything like
[01:26:26] masturbation is actually going to have a
[01:26:28] benefit more likely than not either
[01:26:30] you're going to have a nocturnal
[01:26:31] emission or you're going to body's going
[01:26:33] to absorb that cement so it doesn't
[01:26:35] really change what's going on
[01:26:36] physiologically is there an impact on
[01:26:38] fertility if I masturbate or don't
[01:26:40] murate yes so fertility we do see that
[01:26:42] if you abstain for about five days up to
[01:26:45] five days you're going to see some
[01:26:47] improvement in the seen qu um seen
[01:26:50] volume potentially and also some
[01:26:53] characteristics of of the sperm uh but
[01:26:56] above and beyond that you start seeing
[01:26:58] DNA damage and so that can actually be
[01:27:00] negative if you abstain for too long so
[01:27:02] the sperm are effectively dying in the
[01:27:05] well you're seeing like mutation so
[01:27:06] they're not as they're not as effective
[01:27:08] they're they're not going to die
[01:27:09] necessarily but they're not going to
[01:27:11] create uh a healthy you know fetus or
[01:27:15] embryo okay no F that is fascinating I
[01:27:17] didn't know that's really interesting um
[01:27:21] so a couple of things to understand so
[01:27:23] there are a lot of tradition that
[01:27:24] abstain from sexual activity I think um
[01:27:27] we don't study those Traditions very
[01:27:29] well and I think the key thing to
[01:27:31] understand I personally think that um
[01:27:33] celibacy and abstinence from sexual
[01:27:36] activity can
[01:27:37] be incredibly
[01:27:39] powerful um and so I think part of the
[01:27:42] we have to remember right so if we don't
[01:27:43] have any evidence for something why do
[01:27:46] so many people believe it so some of it
[01:27:48] is there's a lot of bad information out
[01:27:51] there but people what happens on the
[01:27:53] noof fap community
[01:27:55] is that people are having some
[01:27:56] experiences and they're saying this kind
[01:27:58] of thing changed my life and there's so
[01:28:00] many layers to that so the first is that
[01:28:03] I think nofap is kind of a way to
[01:28:05] wrestle with any kind of Behavioral
[01:28:07] control so if we look at like you know
[01:28:09] people who are addicted to pornography
[01:28:11] we talk about all of these negative
[01:28:13] impacts of this cycle of I don't have
[01:28:15] anything to do any day anything today so
[01:28:17] I'm going to jerk off and then I have no
[01:28:18] mean meaning no purpose no dopamine so
[01:28:21] I'm just like stuck in the cycle so they
[01:28:23] want to break the cycle and they just
[01:28:25] pick one thing and I think just
[01:28:27] challenging yourself from a self-control
[01:28:29] perspective I completely agree with Dr
[01:28:31] what mik says there may not be a
[01:28:32] physiological thing going on here but
[01:28:34] just challenging yourself and saying hey
[01:28:36] like this one thing messes up my
[01:28:39] relationships messes up my dopamine
[01:28:41] messes up my purpose and my motivation
[01:28:43] I'm going to take control of this and
[01:28:45] it'll change my life so I think if you
[01:28:47] look at it from an isolated stance of
[01:28:49] masturbation it may not have much of an
[01:28:51] effect we'll talk about the exception to
[01:28:53] that rule in a second in the spiritual
[01:28:55] Traditions but I think that a lot of
[01:28:57] people are just using it as a vehicle to
[01:28:59] come to terms with something challenging
[01:29:01] in their life and they're like they're
[01:29:02] making a commitment right I'm going to
[01:29:04] do this thing and the benefit comes from
[01:29:06] that maybe not any physiological
[01:29:08] thing um you know all the stuff about
[01:29:10] testosterone and stuff completely agree
[01:29:12] I don't think that there's a clear thing
[01:29:13] there but if you look at some of the
[01:29:15] meditative Traditions one of the really
[01:29:17] common things and this is really
[01:29:18] fascinating because this is true of uh
[01:29:20] meditative or religious Traditions all
[01:29:21] over the world so you'll see cibus
[01:29:24] is a part of some of the abrahamic
[01:29:27] religions it's part of some of the
[01:29:28] karmic religions from the East so human
[01:29:30] beings at some point figured out that
[01:29:32] abstaining from sexual activity can have
[01:29:35] different kinds of impacts in the
[01:29:37] organism so a couple of things that it
[01:29:39] does is it reduces our thoughts of lust
[01:29:42] um if we do it the right way and we'll
[01:29:45] get to a couple of specific examples of
[01:29:47] what the nofap community doesn't
[01:29:48] understand so when I deprive myself of a
[01:29:51] particular thing I sometimes reduce that
[01:29:54] behavioral reinforcement so if I look at
[01:29:56] someone who's addicted to alcohol you
[01:29:58] know when they stop drinking alcohol at
[01:30:00] the very beginning their desire will
[01:30:02] increase but then 10 years later they
[01:30:03] don't even think about it so if you are
[01:30:06] someone who is thinking about sex
[01:30:08] constantly and you stop engaging in
[01:30:11] sexual perceptions so remember the
[01:30:14] thoughts in our brain come from what we
[01:30:16] perceive this is why advertising is a
[01:30:18] thing because an Advertiser knows if I
[01:30:20] can show you this thing you will think
[01:30:22] about it now if I'm fapping and watching
[01:30:25] pornography I'm getting this perceptual
[01:30:28] um input which is then creating thoughts
[01:30:30] in my head now I'm thinking about this
[01:30:32] stuff instead of thinking about
[01:30:33] something else so there's that layer of
[01:30:35] thing too when I cut something off from
[01:30:37] my perception when I break up with
[01:30:38] someone why do I block them because if I
[01:30:40] watch their social media if I get text
[01:30:42] from them that's going to enter my
[01:30:44] perception and control my thoughts so
[01:30:46] they can also use it as a benefit of
[01:30:48] like thought control if I stop looking
[01:30:49] at this stuff this has also been
[01:30:51] hijacked by generally speaking
[01:30:54] patriarchal structures for like you know
[01:30:56] there's a particular religious sect of
[01:30:58] Hinduism where the priests are like I'm
[01:31:00] never going to see a woman like no women
[01:31:02] are allowed in the house if I'm going to
[01:31:03] come visit your house right so this gets
[01:31:05] turned into some weird things but so
[01:31:08] noap gives us an opportunity for
[01:31:09] self-control it gives us a chance to
[01:31:11] reduce our sensory input which reduces
[01:31:14] our thoughts and then there's also these
[01:31:16] meditative Traditions which say that you
[01:31:18] know achieving esoteric spiritual
[01:31:21] experiences which is a lot of what the
[01:31:22] noof fat community like talks about like
[01:31:24] they become slightly different human
[01:31:26] beings celibacy is a part of that now
[01:31:29] the key thing about the meditative
[01:31:30] Traditions is that they're not taking
[01:31:31] advice from randos on the internet so
[01:31:33] I'll give you all just one really simple
[01:31:35] example when you do esoteric meditations
[01:31:39] spirituality celibacy kind of stuff it's
[01:31:41] usually accompanied in the Hindu
[01:31:42] tradition or Buddhist tradition with
[01:31:44] certain yogic postures and one example
[01:31:46] of this is something called sidasa sidas
[01:31:49] is adapts pose and literally what you do
[01:31:52] is in this pose you place the heel of
[01:31:56] one your right foot usually up against
[01:31:59] your perenium so you put pressure on the
[01:32:02] area between your anus and your scrotum
[01:32:05] if you're a man it's a slightly
[01:32:06] different location if you're a woman and
[01:32:08] then what that actually does from
[01:32:10] Anatomy I'm sure you know this better
[01:32:11] than I correct me if I'm wrong is that
[01:32:13] you know we know that the blood supply
[01:32:15] to the scrotum passes through that right
[01:32:17] it's on the underside it's like in that
[01:32:18] pelvic floor region so one of the really
[01:32:21] interesting things that I remember
[01:32:22] learning from a yogi who was a medical
[01:32:24] doctor is that when we compress blood
[01:32:26] flow through the testes like if you have
[01:32:28] gently compressed blood flow that
[01:32:30] increases over time you're going to get
[01:32:32] less blood flow to the testes you may
[01:32:34] get some kind of reduction in
[01:32:36] testosterone production in semen
[01:32:37] production or whatever so there may be
[01:32:39] some physiological things that people do
[01:32:41] when they're normally like try to be
[01:32:43] celibate that allow it to be healthy in
[01:32:46] a in a good way so I think kind of the
[01:32:48] the key takeaway don't disagree with
[01:32:50] anything that Dr mik said I think you've
[01:32:52] got to remember that nofap is not a
[01:32:55] Surefire solution to fix all your
[01:32:58] problems and at the same time some
[01:33:01] people have positive experiences also Dr
[01:33:03] mik has been emphasizing this point of
[01:33:06] it's not the same for everybody and we
[01:33:08] know that there are a couple of things
[01:33:09] working with this community quite a bit
[01:33:11] you know there are a couple of things
[01:33:12] that happen about self-control
[01:33:14] challenging yourself setting a goal
[01:33:15] creating purpose in your life changing
[01:33:18] what your sensory inputs are so you
[01:33:19] you're not thirsty all day long and
[01:33:21] thinking about being horny and all this
[01:33:23] kind of stuff like sometimes you got to
[01:33:24] kind of cut it out of your life and so
[01:33:26] it's almost like this this uh cold
[01:33:28] turkey kind of approach which which can
[01:33:30] sometimes work for nicotine can
[01:33:32] sometimes work for things like sex but I
[01:33:34] think like your mileage may vary and we
[01:33:36] don't really know exactly what's going
[01:33:37] on yeah I think I'll add I think the the
[01:33:39] problem I have with it to some degree is
[01:33:42] when people are white knuckling it right
[01:33:43] they're really and they're getting peer
[01:33:45] pressured into it like you got to stop
[01:33:47] right and so then they're they're
[01:33:49] they're really trying hard not to
[01:33:51] ejaculate and so they're tensing up
[01:33:53] their pelvic muscles they're developing
[01:33:55] problems because they're tensing up
[01:33:57] their pelvic floors they're developing
[01:33:58] dysfunctions they're getting pain with
[01:34:00] ejaculation they're getting pain with
[01:34:02] erections or they get so much shame when
[01:34:04] they have a nocturnal emission for
[01:34:06] example nocturnal emission is a
[01:34:07] nighttime ejaculation exactly so they're
[01:34:09] they're they're getting so shamed by the
[01:34:11] community because they've failed which
[01:34:13] is completely out of their physiological
[01:34:15] control like you're going to have a
[01:34:16] nocturnal emission if your body wants to
[01:34:17] have one there's nothing you can do
[01:34:19] about it so you know I think ultimately
[01:34:21] there is a lot of Shame and peer
[01:34:23] pressure that can sometimes create harm
[01:34:25] in these situations now if you're using
[01:34:26] it in the way Dr K describes like that's
[01:34:29] fine if you're if you're deriving
[01:34:31] benefit from it I have no problem but I
[01:34:33] do take issue with the people who are
[01:34:35] harming themselves because they're
[01:34:36] getting a lot of pressure from the from
[01:34:38] the group if I can jump in for a second
[01:34:40] so I want to emphasize this point too so
[01:34:42] this is really weird but people are
[01:34:44] white knuckling it they're they may be
[01:34:45] making their addiction actually worse so
[01:34:47] there's a really interesting principle
[01:34:49] in addiction where if I'm white
[01:34:51] knuckling something like so like I let's
[01:34:53] use the example of like opioid addiction
[01:34:55] right so when when I have when I'm
[01:34:56] working with an opioid addict at the
[01:34:58] very beginning what they have is like a
[01:34:59] psychological craving like I want to I
[01:35:01] want to have an opiate so that I feel
[01:35:03] better mentally I feel better I feel
[01:35:05] Euphoria and then if I White Knuckle it
[01:35:08] what happens is things start to get
[01:35:09] worse then I start to go into withdrawal
[01:35:12] and then my body is like now I'm going
[01:35:13] into opioid withdrawal so instead of
[01:35:15] euphoria now I start to feel pain all
[01:35:17] over my body and as I feel pain all over
[01:35:20] my body then finally what happens is I
[01:35:22] crack
[01:35:24] and then I use opioids and then
[01:35:25] something really interesting happens the
[01:35:27] body learns what it what it has to do to
[01:35:32] you to make you use opioids again so
[01:35:35] when you White Knuckle and actually
[01:35:37] crack at the end what we find is that
[01:35:40] you're the the body jumps straight to
[01:35:42] level 10 right so it's kind of like we
[01:35:44] see this also with like kids and devices
[01:35:46] Mommy Daddy can I have an iPad no and
[01:35:49] then they're like Mommy Daddy please no
[01:35:51] ah and then they start crying then they
[01:35:52] start thrwing a temper tantrum if you
[01:35:55] give them the iPad when they throw a
[01:35:56] temper tantrum that encourages them to
[01:35:59] throw a temper tantrum and we see that
[01:36:01] internally biologically physiologically
[01:36:04] where if you resist an addiction and
[01:36:06] then you cave at the end the body is
[01:36:09] like hey there's no point messing around
[01:36:11] with the early stages let's just go to
[01:36:13] hard withdrawal way faster so I think it
[01:36:16] can be so harmful when people are white
[01:36:18] knuckling it they don't realize that
[01:36:20] every time they fail sometimes what
[01:36:21] they're actually doing is train in their
[01:36:24] brain to punish them way harder so their
[01:36:26] brain can get the dopamine that it
[01:36:28] wants you talk about pornography being a
[01:36:31] substitute for relationships in society
[01:36:35] okay have you spoken about that I don't
[01:36:36] want to misiz your opinion um I've got a
[01:36:38] quote here but your experience is is has
[01:36:41] been that pornography usage is really
[01:36:44] just a powerful coping mechanism um and
[01:36:46] it sort of scratches this evolutionary
[01:36:48] itch for relationships yeah is it
[01:36:51] therefore not a bad thing for people I'm
[01:36:53] reflecting on that idea which we kind of
[01:36:55] addressed at the start but also just
[01:36:56] what I see in the comment section which
[01:36:58] is people really seem to hate dating
[01:37:00] apps and pornography but they also seem
[01:37:03] to use them both and I just as a podcast
[01:37:05] you we we were really surprised the
[01:37:07] first time we had a dating app CE CEO on
[01:37:09] the show because I thought oh great
[01:37:12] episode we learned a lot about business
[01:37:13] and how they built the app and then I
[01:37:14] looked at the comment section and this
[01:37:16] group of people had shown up with like P
[01:37:18] like
[01:37:19] pitchforks and they were expressing
[01:37:21] their like desperation and they're
[01:37:24] feeling that these dating apps and
[01:37:25] pornography has very much ruined their
[01:37:28] lives and so I just I'm throwing that
[01:37:30] out there because it's a reflection of
[01:37:31] the comments that I see yeah no so I I
[01:37:33] didn't say okay to try to shut you I was
[01:37:35] just like let's hear the rest so so yeah
[01:37:38] I I think what was once again remember
[01:37:40] that the brain every part of the brain
[01:37:42] every neurotransmitter is involved in
[01:37:45] sexuality and
[01:37:46] relationships so what's happening is
[01:37:48] when we this is the what we see is
[01:37:51] that when we use technology to activate
[01:37:54] the brain there are parts of the brain
[01:37:56] that don't know the difference the
[01:37:58] problem is that there are other parts of
[01:38:00] the brain that don't get activated so
[01:38:03] this is this is going to get a little
[01:38:04] bit weird but so if I think about like
[01:38:06] you know I'll give you let's just use
[01:38:07] the example of food so when I feel
[01:38:09] hungry I can eat something that's
[01:38:11] calorically dense and that will satisfy
[01:38:14] my Hunger but the calorically dense food
[01:38:16] may not have nutrition it may not have
[01:38:18] micronutrients it may not have fiber so
[01:38:20] when I replace something nutritious with
[01:38:23] something tricks my body into thinking
[01:38:26] oh like now we're fine that can be very
[01:38:28] damaging so one of the things that we
[01:38:30] see with pornography is that if we look
[01:38:32] at like you know being horny why are
[01:38:35] human beings horny it's because if we
[01:38:37] weren't horny we would never mate like
[01:38:39] that's like it's a evolutionary it's not
[01:38:41] a bug it's not a problem it's a drive to
[01:38:44] help us succeed so then we have this
[01:38:47] thing called post-nut Clarity right
[01:38:49] which is like when we have post-nut
[01:38:50] Clarity our our our horniness kind of
[01:38:52] goes down and then then it changes the
[01:38:54] way that we see the world so part of
[01:38:56] what we see a lot with like pornography
[01:38:58] as a substitute for relationships is
[01:38:59] first of all we've evolve to have these
[01:39:02] parts of the brain that get activated
[01:39:04] right relationships are a healthy thing
[01:39:06] for us and now we figured out how to
[01:39:08] partially activate the brain through
[01:39:10] pornography this is getting worse with
[01:39:12] things like only fans because now we
[01:39:14] develop a parasocial relationship
[01:39:16] there's usually not parasocial
[01:39:17] relationships with like you know adult
[01:39:19] film actresses or maybe there are but
[01:39:21] now we have interaction I've seen more
[01:39:24] uh marriages ruined through only fans
[01:39:27] than I have through pornography and I've
[01:39:28] seen a big spike in this recently
[01:39:30] because now it's not just a physical
[01:39:32] thing there's enough insecurity and
[01:39:34] physicality and problems in the bedroom
[01:39:37] now there's an emotional relationship if
[01:39:39] pornography online didn't exist would we
[01:39:44] have better romantic relationships in
[01:39:45] real life you've got an opinion haven't
[01:39:47] you yeah we don't know short short
[01:39:50] answer is we don't know but even shorter
[01:39:52] answer is yeah things worse with
[01:39:53] pornography and here's what I look at
[01:39:55] right so like if we don't have rcts what
[01:39:57] else can we look at rcts randomized
[01:39:59] control trials you know what we can look
[01:40:01] at is global Trends so what are we
[01:40:03] seeing what's the global Trend in
[01:40:05] pornography and what's the global Trend
[01:40:07] in relationships now this isn't
[01:40:09] causality there could be all there's all
[01:40:11] kinds of I think one thing that I really
[01:40:13] appreciated is um you know my my co-
[01:40:15] guests have clearly showed how nuanced
[01:40:19] and multifactorial this issue is but
[01:40:21] generally speaking people are watching
[01:40:22] way more porn and relationships are
[01:40:25] getting worse we have declining birth
[01:40:27] rates people are getting married later
[01:40:30] um you know there's we're seeing a kind
[01:40:32] of global like Zeitgeist problem between
[01:40:36] men and women and por pornography is
[01:40:39] like correlated with those two things so
[01:40:41] in my mind if you H if if I say if you
[01:40:44] have to if I have to put an answer if we
[01:40:46] removed allll pornography from the world
[01:40:49] would things get better I would say yes
[01:40:54] but that's because the way pornography
[01:40:58] is right now and I think is and let me
[01:41:01] finish I think I'm going to tee you up
[01:41:02] so I think it's it's it's because and
[01:41:04] the reason removing it would be better
[01:41:06] is because it has gotten more toxic
[01:41:09] right so as pornography becomes more
[01:41:12] harmful as it morphs and transforms into
[01:41:15] something that is more damaging removing
[01:41:17] it should make things better which is
[01:41:19] inevitable because of how the brain
[01:41:21] works you said we get increasingly dis
[01:41:23] so we want more extreme so if you start
[01:41:25] here you're eventually going to end up
[01:41:26] here regardless I would say for who
[01:41:29] would it be better or worse because for
[01:41:34] me and my taste it would probably be
[01:41:38] worse I think that people who are
[01:41:42] searching ideas desires fantasies
[01:41:46] scripts outside the kind of
[01:41:48] heteronormative male dominant
[01:41:51] pornography that's out there they have
[01:41:54] really you know had a benefit of what
[01:41:57] has happened during the last years on
[01:41:59] the internet today they have access to
[01:42:02] different Role Models they have access
[01:42:05] to different stories they have access to
[01:42:09] representation they you know have access
[01:42:12] to sex education that is not
[01:42:16] heteronormative and and you know kind
[01:42:19] of you know in a heteronormative script
[01:42:22] when it comes to sexual debut
[01:42:25] Etc people always talk about that that
[01:42:29] is through penetrative
[01:42:32] sex that it's not necessarily true is it
[01:42:36] what did we do before porn I mean were
[01:42:38] we struggling in a in a bedroom before
[01:42:39] pornography existed I mean I think
[01:42:41] people were more open about sexuality
[01:42:44] the the way the frigidness around
[01:42:46] sexuality has is a modern concept right
[01:42:50] like in in ancient civilizations you
[01:42:51] were watching people have sex it was in
[01:42:53] in live right like it was but it wasn't
[01:42:56] easily accessible in 15 seconds and
[01:42:59] extreme so we're saying we should come
[01:43:01] off we
[01:43:02] should we have to mature I think I think
[01:43:05] we are in a maturing process that porn
[01:43:08] online this way is still pretty new and
[01:43:12] we haven't talked about it much in you
[01:43:14] know General Society so I think that
[01:43:18] this conversation that you are having
[01:43:20] now that you invited us to have a new
[01:43:23] conversation taking lots of time to talk
[01:43:26] about different aspects that is exactly
[01:43:29] what we need yeah I agree and I would
[01:43:31] just say just back to your point I think
[01:43:33] you know yes we see the rise of all
[01:43:35] these things concurrently but if we got
[01:43:37] rid of porn would there be something
[01:43:38] else that people would be turning to
[01:43:40] right like is it's is chicken or the egg
[01:43:42] right it's probably not the cause it's
[01:43:44] multifactorial and so would people then
[01:43:46] turn to something else so would it be
[01:43:48] only fans instead of porn right would it
[01:43:50] be I mean an only fans can be a variety
[01:43:52] of different things right but it's now a
[01:43:53] live person that's communicating with
[01:43:55] someone else or is it going to be AI
[01:43:57] robots that have sex with you right like
[01:43:59] are we going to turn to something else
[01:44:01] gaming addiction or some other type of
[01:44:03] addiction gambling or recreational drugs
[01:44:06] or alcohol or so it's really you're
[01:44:08] saying it's more just of a symptom of a
[01:44:10] set of challenges in society that people
[01:44:12] are using it for the emotional
[01:44:13] regulation that you described Dr K I
[01:44:15] think there's a little of both right
[01:44:17] it's easily accessible it's it's free I
[01:44:20] mean your time is time but like it is
[01:44:22] not costing you money um so that is that
[01:44:25] is part of the issue but I'm saying I
[01:44:27] don't think it's I think that there is a
[01:44:29] bigger problem and that people are using
[01:44:31] as a scapegoat to avoid this problem
[01:44:34] just to kind of CounterPoint to that I
[01:44:35] don't think you'll disagree with what
[01:44:37] I'm about to say so the other thing that
[01:44:38] we know from addictions is that people
[01:44:40] have drugs of choice right so to say
[01:44:43] that it would be completely replaced I
[01:44:45] would disagree with because I think that
[01:44:46] the way that pornography affects your
[01:44:49] brain uh is unique compared to video
[01:44:52] games
[01:44:53] um and at the same time we also see a
[01:44:56] lot of stuff to support I agree with Dr
[01:44:58] mik is that like we're seeing a rise in
[01:45:00] video game addiction we're seeing a rise
[01:45:01] in social media addiction we're seeing a
[01:45:03] rise in pornography addiction and
[01:45:05] depending on your individual makeup you
[01:45:08] may be vulnerable to pornography versus
[01:45:11] social media right so when you have when
[01:45:13] you need that parasocial relationship
[01:45:16] without the sexual sexual component
[01:45:18] maybe you get addicted to social media
[01:45:21] when you have that sexual component
[01:45:22] Maybe get addicted to to pornography and
[01:45:25] so I I think it is I do think it's like
[01:45:27] a pretty unique thing so if we just look
[01:45:29] at the physiology of sexuality in
[01:45:32] relationships that's a pretty like it's
[01:45:35] a dangerous dangerous thing to
[01:45:38] to hijack because it's so like
[01:45:41] fundamental to like life in mating so
[01:45:45] you know I I think it I think it's
[01:45:47] somewhat specific I I don't think it I
[01:45:49] think if we removed it it would have
[01:45:51] some effect but I I think what I'm
[01:45:53] hearing from my co- guests is that you
[01:45:56] know I think this is true of all
[01:45:57] technology it's not that oh we should
[01:45:58] ban it that's why I'm kind of reluctant
[01:46:00] when you you ask that question and I'm
[01:46:02] happy to say sure on balance I'll say
[01:46:03] yes but I think the key thing to
[01:46:05] understand is that we are developing
[01:46:07] things as the human race without
[01:46:08] realizing what we're building we are
[01:46:11] developing so the problem with
[01:46:12] pornography is almost like an issue of
[01:46:14] like um you know when you introduce an
[01:46:16] invasive species to a new environment
[01:46:19] there are no checks and balances so I
[01:46:21] think like there parts of Australia for
[01:46:22] example example where like they
[01:46:23] introduced rabbits and rabbits have like
[01:46:25] just taken over the whole continent and
[01:46:27] so I think what's happened with
[01:46:28] pornography is we started letting people
[01:46:31] arguably the wrong people start building
[01:46:33] all of this pornography it's ripped
[01:46:35] through our society it's changed the way
[01:46:38] that now 40s something percent of women
[01:46:40] are coerced into asphixiation in college
[01:46:43] like what the [ __ ] right like this is
[01:46:46] insane like how did how did we get here
[01:46:48] but it's only just the beginning you
[01:46:49] mentioned there virtual reality AI these
[01:46:52] new technologies
[01:46:53] um one of the great things about these
[01:46:57] new technologies specifically AI in
[01:47:00] large language models is they can have a
[01:47:02] conversation with you and this is
[01:47:04] something in technology that we couldn't
[01:47:05] really do before in such a remarkably
[01:47:07] personalized way so you kind of combine
[01:47:10] these Technologies you go okay I'll add
[01:47:11] in virtual reality robotics is on the
[01:47:13] rise as well we now have these large
[01:47:15] language models that can communicate
[01:47:16] with you in whatever way they need to to
[01:47:18] make you feel whatever you need to feel
[01:47:20] and I I look at that and go the future's
[01:47:24] not bright as it relates to sex sex
[01:47:26] relationships and pornography people you
[01:47:28] know they did a study in 2020 with
[01:47:30] virtual reality and they found the
[01:47:32] researchers found in that study that
[01:47:34] virtual reality porn um made people feel
[01:47:37] more desired more flirted with and more
[01:47:40] connected to the actress so the more
[01:47:41] immersive we make pornography which is
[01:47:43] the direction of travel in the world
[01:47:44] generally the more it's going to be
[01:47:45] addictive the more it's going to bit
[01:47:47] feel like a better substitute than
[01:47:49] having a real relationship with a real
[01:47:50] person yeah I agree I think it's it's
[01:47:54] unless we develop some checks and
[01:47:56] balances and we
[01:47:58] prioritize relationships with other
[01:48:01] human beings uh as a society we're we're
[01:48:04] going to be in trouble so what do we do
[01:48:05] there do we ban
[01:48:07] it do we ban virtual AI
[01:48:11] porn because there's already websites
[01:48:13] now there was three websites that I
[01:48:15] found that allowed you to make your
[01:48:17] own um partner um and they're calling
[01:48:20] this Digi sexuals where you can pick
[01:48:22] their personality you can pick their
[01:48:24] physical preferences you can pick the
[01:48:26] sexual fantasy that they perform and
[01:48:28] that you want to see them perform um and
[01:48:30] and uh and these are becoming
[01:48:32] increasingly popular and the great thing
[01:48:34] about these according to the websites
[01:48:36] that make these sexual characters that
[01:48:38] you can make yourself is it remembers
[01:48:40] all of your previous conversations so
[01:48:41] quote it can improve communication and
[01:48:44] cater to what your desire is so it can
[01:48:46] really speak to what you want but it
[01:48:49] can't touch you oh it can't hug you it
[01:48:52] can't kiss you
[01:48:53] but the robots can those big sexual
[01:48:55] robots can so like I know this is going
[01:48:57] to sound crazy but like you know I I
[01:48:59] think we we look at the end of the human
[01:49:01] race and we look at things like climate
[01:49:03] change and nuclear war and and maybe
[01:49:05] like some super bug that is resistant to
[01:49:07] all of our antibiotics like there's a
[01:49:10] tiny tiny chance that what's going to
[01:49:11] end the human race is something like
[01:49:13] this and I know that's like kind of a
[01:49:14] bold statement to make but like let me
[01:49:15] just share with yall what I'm afraid of
[01:49:19] so what's going on is you're right it's
[01:49:20] becoming more immersive and the whole
[01:49:22] whole problem with like technology and
[01:49:24] even the virtual world what we see in
[01:49:25] video games is that the immersive world
[01:49:28] is one that we prefer to the real world
[01:49:31] right so if you kind of think about
[01:49:32] let's say only fans versus a real
[01:49:34] relationship only fans like this person
[01:49:36] is financially invested to not piss me
[01:49:39] off whereas I know this is very
[01:49:41] frustrating for a lot of dudes out there
[01:49:43] turns out if you're in a real
[01:49:44] relationship with a woman there's a
[01:49:46] human being who has thoughts and
[01:49:47] feelings and desires of her her own I
[01:49:49] know it's tough right and and so like
[01:49:52] what happens is we and only fans like
[01:49:54] they're they're invested in making you
[01:49:57] happy and now what we're happening is AI
[01:49:59] girlfriends that's just the start of it
[01:50:00] man like right now they they can try to
[01:50:02] fulfill your desires someone's going to
[01:50:04] figure out that a random reinforcement
[01:50:06] schedule is better so if you want to
[01:50:08] create the most addictive virtual
[01:50:10] girlfriend she's actually not going to
[01:50:12] give you what you want some of the time
[01:50:13] she's going to piss you off she's going
[01:50:15] to throw a temper tantrum that is going
[01:50:16] to trick your brain into thinking this
[01:50:19] is a real relationship which comes from
[01:50:21] gambling psychology right gambling
[01:50:22] psychology right and so now what I'm
[01:50:24] going to do is get more addicted to
[01:50:26] technology and this is why video games
[01:50:28] are adictive there's a really
[01:50:29] fascinating study where people were like
[01:50:31] the the reason video games are addictive
[01:50:33] is because of a denial of a reward so if
[01:50:35] you look at fortnite fortnite is a game
[01:50:37] that has a 100 players in Arena there's
[01:50:39] one winner which means you lose 99% of
[01:50:41] the time but oh boy if you're the winner
[01:50:43] that one time the dopamine surge that
[01:50:46] you get is astronomical when we deny
[01:50:49] human beings rewards and then we give it
[01:50:52] to them they're hooked this is gambling
[01:50:54] this is also why we respect people
[01:50:57] sitting at this table because we've all
[01:50:58] worked hard what we did is not easy to
[01:51:01] do that's why everyone values it
[01:51:04] someone's going to figure this out with
[01:51:05] AI girlfriends and then this is the
[01:51:07] thing they can't hug us but they can so
[01:51:10] this is happening so this technology was
[01:51:11] actually developed in the early 2000s
[01:51:13] for medical reasons so when we were
[01:51:15] seeing um clinics in remote parts of the
[01:51:18] world that would have these things
[01:51:19] called haptic feedback gloves so this is
[01:51:22] back uh when if you look at like a
[01:51:24] doctor who was this was specifically a
[01:51:26] technology developed around detecting
[01:51:27] breast cancer so what happens is I put
[01:51:29] on a glove I'm a doctor and someone else
[01:51:31] puts on a glove somewhere else in the
[01:51:33] world and then they do a breast exam so
[01:51:35] they feel the breast okay and then based
[01:51:37] on the lumps that you feel whatever
[01:51:40] their glove feels I'm wearing a glove
[01:51:42] that makes me feel the same things so we
[01:51:45] have some of these sexually assistive
[01:51:47] devices like you know for both men and
[01:51:49] women now when we combine haptic
[01:51:51] feedback and they start throwing temper
[01:51:53] tantrums like I really think it could be
[01:51:54] like there's this tiny chance it's just
[01:51:56] the end of the human race cuz we're not
[01:51:58] like why bother with another
[01:52:00] human when I can get touch and I can get
[01:52:05] activated and you can get irritated
[01:52:07] every so often every so often which
[01:52:08] makes it so much sweeter right makeup
[01:52:10] sex is
[01:52:11] great the end of the human race
[01:52:15] scary I don't I don't want to go with
[01:52:17] there I I think we have to actively work
[01:52:19] at it right like we have to teach our
[01:52:21] children that like relationships are
[01:52:23] hard and worth it and you know like like
[01:52:26] it has it's hard though it's it's really
[01:52:28] hard but I think um yeah I think it's
[01:52:31] it's going to be a challenge and we have
[01:52:33] to have some checks and balances and we
[01:52:34] on our own have to work in our own
[01:52:36] little microcosm to try to continually
[01:52:39] have the younger generation see the
[01:52:41] value of relationships and procreation
[01:52:44] and all those things because that's uh
[01:52:46] you know on the decline don't people in
[01:52:48] life typically just go for the path of
[01:52:50] least resistance when left to their own
[01:52:52] devices you know I was thinking as you
[01:52:54] speaking about when I was in primary
[01:52:55] school they came in and taught me about
[01:52:57] your five a day so like you meant to
[01:52:58] have like five fruit and vegetables a
[01:53:00] day or whatever but then if they they
[01:53:01] tell you that information but then they
[01:53:03] put you in a food environment where um
[01:53:06] every shop is selling me candy and you
[01:53:08] know processed foods because it's it's
[01:53:10] more nutritious my brain spikes more
[01:53:12] there's no it doesn't matter if what you
[01:53:13] told me it doesn't matter if I know
[01:53:15] fight for fruit and vegetable but we
[01:53:16] still have like this obesity crisis and
[01:53:18] I think if you went up to the average
[01:53:19] American and said what food is healthy I
[01:53:21] think a good proportion of them would be
[01:53:23] able to say what's healthy and what's
[01:53:24] not but then if you ask them what they
[01:53:26] consume it's a very different answer
[01:53:28] irrespective of pricing because your
[01:53:30] brain especially in a more stressed
[01:53:32] world than ever before is really driving
[01:53:34] driving you so I'm picking up the the
[01:53:36] soda I'm picking up and I think about
[01:53:38] the same in pornography we can know
[01:53:40] something is not good for us but if it's
[01:53:42] readily available and it's low friction
[01:53:44] to access it the incentives are going to
[01:53:46] win out over the long term and I think
[01:53:48] about this in company culture I say to
[01:53:49] people all the time I say you know as a
[01:53:51] CEO you can stand there and tell your
[01:53:52] group of people how you want the team to
[01:53:53] behave but it's almost uh it's really
[01:53:56] naive to assume over any long long
[01:53:59] period of time that people will act
[01:54:00] outside of their incentives so you can
[01:54:02] say I want you guys to Al to innovate
[01:54:04] but if your job description is literally
[01:54:05] rewarding you to do your current job and
[01:54:08] your bonuses are rewarding you to do
[01:54:10] your current job you're going to do your
[01:54:11] current job regardless of what the co is
[01:54:12] barking you know at you I think about
[01:54:14] the same in porn like we can't just we
[01:54:17] can't just rely on telling people that
[01:54:19] it's bad people do people do do things
[01:54:22] for delayed gratification right we went
[01:54:24] to medical school there is a lot of
[01:54:26] delayed gratification in medical school
[01:54:28] you're a CEO you're a producer like
[01:54:30] these are not easy things to start right
[01:54:32] and you do it because you know there's
[01:54:34] potential reward at the end of it so
[01:54:36] there is you know human psychology and
[01:54:38] I'm sure Dr K can talk more about that
[01:54:40] like where you can foster this
[01:54:42] appreciation for delayed gratification
[01:54:44] and also with good food you know when
[01:54:46] you eat well when you eat green Etc you
[01:54:49] feel much better and that gives your
[01:54:50] energy and then you want to keep going
[01:54:53] the stats just the Obesity stats are
[01:54:54] just horrifying in the in the US in
[01:54:57] particular it's a country where you know
[01:55:00] education education education we tried
[01:55:03] that you know in school I was told that
[01:55:05] vegetables are good and this is good but
[01:55:06] then obesity stats since the time I was
[01:55:09] in school have just gone in One
[01:55:10] Direction Still yeah that maybe it's
[01:55:12] about the practice we have to learn you
[01:55:14] know how to get into the right practice
[01:55:17] of things and this is a question really
[01:55:18] about is it the individual that has to
[01:55:20] find this discipline or this this sort
[01:55:22] of selfcontrol or at Social level do we
[01:55:25] need to put things in place to make the
[01:55:27] environment easier to operate in so
[01:55:31] couple of thoughts the first so the
[01:55:33] first is I think the answer to that
[01:55:34] question which we learn in medical
[01:55:36] school is there's never an either or the
[01:55:38] answer is always both it's always
[01:55:40] multifactorial so I think um I'm with
[01:55:43] you that so like I when I think about
[01:55:45] like you know what what is my life's
[01:55:47] work it's I work on the individual level
[01:55:49] so when you ask me should we ban
[01:55:50] something it's like I I don't know cuz
[01:55:52] my thought is that we got to save a
[01:55:53] couple people the good news about the
[01:55:54] human race dying out is that you know if
[01:55:56] a couple people continue to have sex
[01:55:58] with each other then all the people who
[01:56:00] are vulnerable to AI relationships will
[01:56:03] actually not procreate and Humanity will
[01:56:05] survive right so maybe we're okay but I
[01:56:09] I think that the other thing you have to
[01:56:10] keep in mind so this is maybe a little
[01:56:12] bit more of a spiritual event so I'm
[01:56:14] with you that there's an obesity crisis
[01:56:15] I'm with you that human beings it's kind
[01:56:17] of like we treat human beings like the
[01:56:19] lowest common denominator right we're
[01:56:21] like oh human beings
[01:56:22] if we give them broccoli and cookies
[01:56:24] like they're going to eat cookies but I
[01:56:26] think that there two things the first
[01:56:28] thing is that like Dr Malik said you
[01:56:30] know I think even if we look at this
[01:56:32] podcast like the people who are watching
[01:56:34] this are not interested in eating
[01:56:36] cookies and there is an appetite why
[01:56:39] have podcasts exploded because people
[01:56:41] tried to educate kids in school and what
[01:56:45] we have organically evolutionary
[01:56:48] discovered is there is a different way
[01:56:50] to communicate information that that
[01:56:52] creates behavioral change that's the
[01:56:54] first thing so we're seeing the
[01:56:56] counterbalancing force of obesity like
[01:56:59] the whole world became obese because we
[01:57:01] had people making calorically dense food
[01:57:03] without an awareness of it but I also
[01:57:05] see the highest amount of like whole
[01:57:08] grain advertisement that I've ever seen
[01:57:11] before now we know it's a problem and
[01:57:13] now humanity is fighting back the other
[01:57:16] thing so this is what I think really
[01:57:17] separates human beings from animals and
[01:57:19] maybe this is an argument that a more
[01:57:22] competent biologist will will say I'm
[01:57:24] wrong here this is more of a spiritual
[01:57:26] perspective but I think human beings are
[01:57:28] the only species on the planet that may
[01:57:30] be able to run against our programming
[01:57:33] right and you can argue that this is
[01:57:34] even a deeper level of programming but
[01:57:36] like the whole point to Being Human the
[01:57:38] cool thing about being human is my brain
[01:57:41] can drive me like you said in One
[01:57:43] Direction but I can say hey even though
[01:57:47] my brain is driving me in this direction
[01:57:48] I don't want to go in that direction
[01:57:51] human beings are it's really interesting
[01:57:53] right because we're the ones that like
[01:57:54] so I remember you know watching this Tik
[01:57:57] Tok or something about a vegan dog and
[01:58:00] someone was like oh yeah you know my dog
[01:58:01] is vegan they don't even like food Let's
[01:58:03] do an experiment there's one piece of
[01:58:05] meat and one piece of some weird corn
[01:58:08] broccoli chowder right dog sniffs both
[01:58:11] has never had meat for the last two
[01:58:12] years and eats the meat so if we look at
[01:58:14] animals like animals it's not clear to
[01:58:16] me that animals are able to regulate
[01:58:19] their impulses in the way that human
[01:58:20] beings do why have human beings
[01:58:22] dominated the planet it's because when
[01:58:24] we feel like having a cookie we have
[01:58:25] broccoli when we feel like yelling at
[01:58:28] someone we restrain ourselves and there
[01:58:30] may be some deeper biology evolutionary
[01:58:32] kind of thing going on there but I I'd
[01:58:34] ask each and every one of you to look at
[01:58:36] your experience for a second forget
[01:58:37] about biology when you have an
[01:58:40] Impulse does that impulse control you or
[01:58:43] can you fight back I fight right we all
[01:58:46] fight that's The Human Experience The
[01:58:48] Human Experience is fighting against our
[01:58:50] impulses every [ __ ] day and then we
[01:58:52] try to learn how can I get better at
[01:58:54] this because what my tongue wants I'm
[01:58:57] talking about calories not sex for a
[01:58:59] second you know what my tongue wants is
[01:59:03] not there's a part of me that says this
[01:59:04] is not good for me in the long run this
[01:59:06] is delayed gratification how many of our
[01:59:08] impulses do you actually think we're
[01:59:10] winning the fight against because I
[01:59:12] would argue that we're losing pretty
[01:59:15] much all of the fights against our
[01:59:17] impulses in fact the fact that we're all
[01:59:18] sat here is probably us following our
[01:59:20] impulses the rise in social media usage
[01:59:23] is us being a slave to our impulses the
[01:59:25] rise in obesity globally is US failing
[01:59:28] losing the fight to our impulses the
[01:59:29] rise in pornography is US losing our
[01:59:31] fight to our impulses the rise in gaming
[01:59:33] gambling alcohol whatever is US losing
[01:59:36] our fight with our impulses yes
[01:59:38] alcoholic people so this is going to
[01:59:40] sound wild I think we're getting better
[01:59:42] at it so I know you're saying we're
[01:59:45] losing the war right human beings
[01:59:48] self-control is increasing and the
[01:59:50] reason why we're losing the war right
[01:59:53] now but the enemy is coming up with
[01:59:55] better and better weapons technology is
[01:59:57] getting
[01:59:58] sophisticated pornography is getting
[02:00:00] sophisticated social media is getting
[02:00:02] sophisticated and yet the human race in
[02:00:05] some ways we're collapsing but we're
[02:00:06] also like operating in some ways at the
[02:00:08] best level that we ever have so we're
[02:00:11] getting outgunned but I actually think
[02:00:13] human beings on the whole what I see in
[02:00:14] the community what's the top search how
[02:00:17] do I quit pornography so there's
[02:00:19] something happening like on a Humanity
[02:00:21] level
[02:00:22] where we're like as human beings we're
[02:00:24] like we got to start fighting back this
[02:00:26] podcast is is a consequence of that this
[02:00:28] is human beings fighting back so are we
[02:00:30] losing the war yeah but I think we've
[02:00:32] been like we got caught by surprise we
[02:00:34] got caught with our pants down right
[02:00:36] which may be a weird analy in this
[02:00:38] context but you know so so like I'm with
[02:00:41] you that there's a lot of reasons to be
[02:00:42] scared and also like the reason that
[02:00:45] people pay attention to me and Dr Malik
[02:00:47] and Erica is because we're fighting back
[02:00:50] right that's why we're here Stephen this
[02:00:51] is brilliant man because here you are
[02:00:53] and what are you what are the questions
[02:00:54] you're asking us we're all screwed we're
[02:00:56] doomed isn't all screwed right so you've
[02:00:59] become so sophisticated that everyone
[02:01:01] who's listening to us you're pulling out
[02:01:04] the strongest messages of hope that the
[02:01:06] three of us can muster you're figuring
[02:01:09] out how to give people hope because you
[02:01:12] keep on asking these pessimistic
[02:01:14] pessimistic pessimistic questions so
[02:01:16] this is what it takes man it takes like
[02:01:18] people who are like figuring out how
[02:01:19] this works maybe you're controlling
[02:01:21] their impulses who knows no no I have to
[02:01:22] represent whatever the opposite of
[02:01:24] whatever you say is if you say left I'll
[02:01:26] say right yeah
[02:01:27] right but so that's beautiful so think
[02:01:30] about it when you were at school did
[02:01:32] anyone ever tell you there's a conflict
[02:01:34] between broccoli and cookies no they
[02:01:35] said eat broccoli so we have figured out
[02:01:37] as a human race that we need to
[02:01:39] represent both sides of the conflict to
[02:01:41] get the best out of a human being that's
[02:01:43] a critical principle for addiction
[02:01:45] treatment too you can't tell them it's
[02:01:46] good you have to weigh the good and the
[02:01:49] bad is there any such thing as too much
[02:01:51] point Dr Reena so I think it's really
[02:01:54] about how you feel about it so in all
[02:01:55] the data about problematic porn use it's
[02:01:57] like people who feel bad about it like
[02:01:59] they're like oh I really don't I think I
[02:02:00] use too much then you probably use too
[02:02:02] much right but if you use it and you
[02:02:04] don't feel bad about it and you're still
[02:02:06] able to go to work and you're still able
[02:02:07] to maintain your relationships and have
[02:02:09] sex with your partner or Partners or
[02:02:11] whatever then it's not a problem right
[02:02:13] so I think it's really it's it's comes
[02:02:16] down to how you feel about it and
[02:02:17] usually you're right about it usually if
[02:02:19] you feel like something's wrong and
[02:02:20] you're using too much then probably
[02:02:23] abstaining or trying a different
[02:02:24] alternative may be beneficial so just to
[02:02:27] conclude then if I made you Prime
[02:02:29] Minister President of the United Kingdom
[02:02:31] the world let's say and you had to put
[02:02:35] legislation in place to make our
[02:02:37] relationship with pornography healthier
[02:02:39] or to make it a net more positive force
[02:02:42] for society or impact on society what
[02:02:45] exactly would you
[02:02:46] do Dr Reena this is a tough question so
[02:02:49] I think I would have some mandatory self
[02:02:55] analysis of your porn use that everyone
[02:02:57] has to take every so often so that
[02:03:00] people can actually have to look at it
[02:03:02] with an objective like not watching porn
[02:03:05] but seeing like how many hours do you
[02:03:06] use it and how often are using it and
[02:03:09] again frequency is not always related to
[02:03:11] problem but it is one marker that we can
[02:03:14] measure and then you know maybe again
[02:03:17] have a warning to them that this seems
[02:03:18] like a lot of use are you still and then
[02:03:21] they if they have a certain marker of
[02:03:22] use maybe are you finding that you're
[02:03:23] having difficulties in relationships and
[02:03:25] whatever and and that would hopefully
[02:03:29] alert some red flags to people who may
[02:03:30] need some assistance and and hopefully
[02:03:33] we'd have some sort of intervention for
[02:03:34] them what about you Dr K uh honestly
[02:03:38] what I do is resign like the first thing
[02:03:40] I would do um but if you're asking for
[02:03:42] like a single policy change I can get
[02:03:44] behind one thing so I think the biggest
[02:03:45] thing that we need right now from a
[02:03:46] policy level is social and emotional
[02:03:49] skills training for all children I think
[02:03:52] we need to
[02:03:53] reevaluate what we teach in schools and
[02:03:56] what what people actually need to learn
[02:03:58] today so school when knowledge and
[02:04:01] information was not easily accessible
[02:04:04] school was about learning information
[02:04:06] but I don't need to learn the capital of
[02:04:08] any state or country now because I can
[02:04:10] look it up so I think what we really
[02:04:12] need is social and emotional skills
[02:04:14] training there are also studies that
[02:04:15] show that this is very very helpful for
[02:04:17] people so how do you regulate your
[02:04:19] emotions how do you form connections
[02:04:21] with other people these are the two
[02:04:22] biggest things that we need because our
[02:04:24] emotions when they get out of whack
[02:04:25] they're the birth of all addiction and
[02:04:28] media straightening so young people can
[02:04:31] understand what they actually are
[02:04:33] watching and that media is sending out
[02:04:35] messages to the world and that we are
[02:04:38] decoding those messages I think that is
[02:04:41] absolutely necessary but what I would do
[02:04:43] I I I think porn should be behind a
[02:04:45] payment barrier for me
[02:04:48] that's I believe that that's the way it
[02:04:51] should be and better sexual education
[02:04:53] better sexual education I would add that
[02:04:55] I add that to the Mandate yeah
[02:04:57] absolutely I don't know how to say this
[02:04:59] you in a way that you're going to
[02:05:00] understand but perfect Ted is banging
[02:05:03] I'm an investor in the company I drink
[02:05:04] it every day the whole team drinks
[02:05:06] perfect Ted every day we have a perfect
[02:05:07] Ted fridge in the office here's why I
[02:05:09] like perfect Ted typical energy drinks
[02:05:10] used to give me these crashes and as a
[02:05:12] podcaster the last thing you want to do
[02:05:13] is be crashing in a conversation the
[02:05:15] founders of perfect Ted wanted to create
[02:05:16] an energy drink that wouldn't create
[02:05:18] that horrible crash cycle that many of
[02:05:21] us go through so they used matcha as the
[02:05:22] energy source and somehow they also made
[02:05:24] it really really delicious they've just
[02:05:26] come out with this new flavor called
[02:05:27] juicy Peach and it is banging if you try
[02:05:30] perfect teds juicy Peach and it's not
[02:05:31] banging feel free to get in my DMs and
[02:05:34] cuss me out you can pick it up at tesos
[02:05:36] or waitr or you can get it online and
[02:05:38] here's a secret that you've got to keep
[02:05:39] to yourself I'm going to give you 40%
[02:05:41] off perfect Ted just so you can try
[02:05:44] juicy Peach yourself go to perfect.com
[02:05:46] and at checkout put in the code diary 40
[02:05:49] I'm going to leave that up for some time
[02:05:50] not forever that's perfect ted.com and
[02:05:52] then use codee diary 40 at checkout when
[02:05:54] you try it make sure you tag me on
[02:05:55] Instagram and and say Steve you were
[02:05:57] right it's banging what's the most
[02:05:59] important thing we should have talked
[02:06:00] about but we didn't talk about as it
[02:06:01] relates to the work that you do and what
[02:06:03] you've seen as it relates to Sexual
[02:06:04] Health relationships love and
[02:06:07] dating um I think what we didn't spend
[02:06:09] enough time on is how pornography
[02:06:13] changes our body Images so I think
[02:06:15] there's a significant number of people
[02:06:19] men interested in increasing panal
[02:06:20] length women interested in maybe
[02:06:22] labioplasty or looking a certain way
[02:06:25] that they're often seeing on pornography
[02:06:27] and I think that creates a lot of
[02:06:30] dissatisfaction a lot of Shame a lot of
[02:06:33] um you know small penis anxiety is a
[02:06:35] real thing and it's it it is very
[02:06:38] detrimental people are so um so focused
[02:06:42] on the size of their penis that they are
[02:06:45] now thinking about it ruminating about
[02:06:47] it um potentially doing harm to
[02:06:49] themselves to try to increase Penal
[02:06:52] and so I think that this is something we
[02:06:53] didn't talk about but that is another
[02:06:55] potential harm of seeing people who have
[02:06:58] chosen to be pornography actors who have
[02:07:00] you know on the high standard deviations
[02:07:02] of size that's not normal right and so
[02:07:05] they're not seeing normal anatomy and I
[02:07:07] think that's that's potentially harmful
[02:07:09] I I agree partly but then also I hear
[02:07:12] many people when they're talking about
[02:07:14] porn they're saying porn creates
[02:07:17] unexpected kind of ideas of of your
[02:07:19] bodies and Etc but I'm I'm a bit
[02:07:22] suspicious about this because honestly
[02:07:25] look at Fashion what is fashion doing I
[02:07:27] think it's worse I really think it's
[02:07:29] worse many time I I I in porn there are
[02:07:32] so many different people today different
[02:07:35] body types different ages
[02:07:37] different you know different everything
[02:07:39] that are being represented so I think
[02:07:42] that that statement might be you know
[02:07:44] from 10 years ago or something where
[02:07:47] does that statement come from just I
[02:07:49] mean we know that there is small pieing
[02:07:51] we know that people are St concern my
[02:07:53] highest viewed video is about increasing
[02:07:55] panut length there's over 30 million
[02:07:57] views so it is um clearly something that
[02:08:00] people are searching now is it from
[02:08:02] pornography 100% no not necessarily but
[02:08:05] that's where they're seeing these very
[02:08:07] large organs is typically on pornography
[02:08:09] yes you can see a whole host of a
[02:08:12] variety of different types of people but
[02:08:13] I think they're seeing it there and
[02:08:15] feeling probably when it comes to men
[02:08:18] there are less Variety in porn than when
[02:08:21] it comes to women Erica do you use large
[02:08:25] penises in your work I don't know how to
[02:08:27] say
[02:08:29] that is part of your sort of do you
[02:08:32] shoose them by the size no I do not I
[02:08:34] look for I look for people's personality
[02:08:37] that's what I'm after I'm I'm looking
[02:08:39] for people who who feel like real people
[02:08:42] I'm I I I mean Beauty and energy and
[02:08:47] passion and chemistry these sort of
[02:08:49] things but does the penis size matter no
[02:08:51] to me it doesn't matter but then if
[02:08:54] we're gonna be 100% honest it's true
[02:08:57] that many of the performers have
[02:08:59] slighter bigger penises than what is
[02:09:03] considered average what's the average
[02:09:05] penis length it's about 5.1 to 5.5 in
[02:09:09] erect and uh is there a a gap in the
[02:09:12] perception there do men think the
[02:09:13] average penis length is bigger yeah
[02:09:15] actually both genders do so when you
[02:09:17] look at um studies where people like
[02:09:19] look at a penis and estimate the size
[02:09:21] both genders tend to um tend to
[02:09:23] overestimate average penal length but
[02:09:26] they also are not really great at
[02:09:27] looking at a penis and telling the size
[02:09:29] so sometimes they'll see like a five and
[02:09:31] a half inch penis and think it's six
[02:09:33] inches um you know up to an inch in
[02:09:35] variability basically when you get on
[02:09:37] the the above average sizes so there is
[02:09:40] you know obviously perception issues but
[02:09:42] ultimately I think the people who tend
[02:09:44] to want to be and correct me if I'm
[02:09:46] wrong um who want to be performers who
[02:09:48] are male will generally have something
[02:09:51] they want to show off and they will
[02:09:52] think they have a larger penis what
[02:09:54] about the length of sex though is there
[02:09:56] disparities between how long we think
[02:09:57] sex should be and how often we should
[02:09:59] think we should be having it which
[02:10:00] causes a lot of sort of dissatisfaction
[02:10:02] in relationships yeah absolutely so
[02:10:03] there's um the average time to
[02:10:06] ejaculation for a man is about five five
[02:10:10] to six minutes the average time to
[02:10:12] orgasm for a woman during partnered
[02:10:14] intercourse is about 14 minutes so
[02:10:16] there's definitely a disparity there
[02:10:19] that um needs to be addressed if you
[02:10:22] want the if you have average duration in
[02:10:24] your relationship then the part the
[02:10:25] female partner needs to be prioritized
[02:10:27] so she can reach Climax and that's not
[02:10:29] the end all goal for everybody you can
[02:10:31] still have a great relationship and have
[02:10:33] a great experience without an orgasm but
[02:10:35] if you want both people to climax you
[02:10:36] need to stimulate the female partner a
[02:10:38] little longer you're going to say
[02:10:40] something that don't care yes I it's
[02:10:43] just when she was saying you know that's
[02:10:44] not the priority she look at
[02:10:47] Eric so so there's just I'm sorry like
[02:10:50] my brain grew up on the internet and
[02:10:52] like there's like a subtrack that's
[02:10:54] running this whole time but so I I think
[02:10:56] you know what I what I teach my patients
[02:10:58] is almost identical so if you look at
[02:11:01] the average sexual intercourse like
[02:11:03] people don't realize it's three to seven
[02:11:04] minutes um is what's really even really
[02:11:07] fascinating is that speaking of
[02:11:09] misperceptions about 50% of
[02:11:12] women start uh don't want sex longer
[02:11:16] than 15 minutes so I didn't know what
[02:11:18] the average time to female and male
[02:11:19] orgasm was but I know what people prefer
[02:11:21] and half of women like they don't want
[02:11:23] you know if you watch like a a two film
[02:11:26] or something like sure sometimes there's
[02:11:27] shorts and stuff but there's also like
[02:11:29] you know porno is like 45 minutes of all
[02:11:32] kinds of stuff like it's like 3 to seven
[02:11:33] minutes and women start complaining
[02:11:35] after 50 seconds so I see a lot of this
[02:11:38] um you know this like uh body dysmorphia
[02:11:41] almost it's like getting to that level
[02:11:43] in both men and women unrealistic
[02:11:45] expectations about body unrealistic
[02:11:47] expectations about performance that
[02:11:49] creates shame once I feel feel shame
[02:11:51] then I want to watch pornography then
[02:11:54] you know I want to watch Dr Malik's
[02:11:55] video that has 30 million views or get
[02:11:57] pills to increase my penis size on the
[02:11:58] advertisers you know so I I think that
[02:12:01] there's just a lot of bad information
[02:12:03] out there so does this mean that we need
[02:12:04] to make pornography that is reflective
[02:12:06] of reality i. make it 3 to five minutes
[02:12:09] long for men and 14 minutes for women
[02:12:11] but also um does it mean that we need to
[02:12:15] introduce pornography that's reflective
[02:12:16] of all body Images because again I go
[02:12:18] back to this like broccoli cookie
[02:12:20] analogy so I don't think it has to be
[02:12:22] pornography so I had an interesting
[02:12:24] experience so like I was in Europe and I
[02:12:26] went to a coed SAA right so like we
[02:12:28] don't have that here in the United
[02:12:30] States and the coet was like mostly like
[02:12:31] older people so you see like you know
[02:12:34] the majority of people there were like
[02:12:35] 60 plus so you see like you know a
[02:12:38] hundred naked bodies of like old men and
[02:12:40] women and it really puts things in
[02:12:42] perspective I think part of the problem
[02:12:44] is with things like fashion and things
[02:12:45] like pornography we don't you know we
[02:12:47] just don't see what a normal naked body
[02:12:49] looks like so what what's the only we
[02:12:51] see two kinds of naked bodies we see our
[02:12:53] own and then we see you know highly
[02:12:57] produced or highly selected we don't see
[02:12:59] normal naked but if I made a porn porn
[02:13:01] film that had reality in it would
[02:13:05] anybody buy it well I think if you made
[02:13:07] a porn film explain
[02:13:10] yeah that would sell out what are you
[02:13:12] talking
[02:13:13] about no but but but the answer the
[02:13:16] answer here is yes I made a film with a
[02:13:19] couple who are 70 plus and it's very
[02:13:23] successful people there's a very popular
[02:13:25] older female I don't know her but I've
[02:13:27] seen her on social media who's a porn
[02:13:29] porn actress and she's you know she's
[02:13:32] normal looking quite many actually uh
[02:13:36] but why don't the industry make videos
[02:13:38] then of people with normal bodies and
[02:13:40] normal sized penises but those videos
[02:13:42] aren't the popular ones according to the
[02:13:43] data not necessary if you go on any
[02:13:46] streaming website and you click the
[02:13:47] popular button what you'll see is
[02:13:49] idyllic bodies now if people were
[02:13:50] searching out the pornography you're
[02:13:51] saying those would be the most popular
[02:13:54] because the the companies would make
[02:13:55] more money from them I mean there's so
[02:13:57] much content I think that that really
[02:13:59] lots of it is is is popular I I I mean
[02:14:03] there's you know one of the things that
[02:14:05] they are doing on this size on the sites
[02:14:08] is that they are categorizing people by
[02:14:10] their primary features kind of so you
[02:14:15] can look for porn with bigger bodies for
[02:14:19] example and it's quite a popular
[02:14:21] category actually actually but you can
[02:14:23] also look for tiny teens you can look
[02:14:26] for mils you can look for for cougars
[02:14:30] you I mean people many people they have
[02:14:33] kind of gotten away from what is kind of
[02:14:37] desire and connecting people and has
[02:14:40] gotten into this way of kind of having
[02:14:43] their favorite kind of people their
[02:14:46] favorite kind would your business be
[02:14:48] more or less successful if the bodies
[02:14:49] were reflective of soci society and the
[02:14:51] penises were reflective of society would
[02:14:53] your business be more or less successful
[02:14:55] in my case I don't I don't think so I
[02:14:57] think we already show a great diversity
[02:15:00] of people is it reflective of
[02:15:03] society 100% not but who is is Netflix
[02:15:08] reflective of society is Vogue magazine
[02:15:11] reflective of society Etc I mean I think
[02:15:14] that we do tend to look for beauty
[02:15:18] somehow but beauty doesn't mean uh
[02:15:21] stereotyped model liked
[02:15:23] people yeah just to chime in so I I I I
[02:15:26] I think I challenge your question just a
[02:15:27] little bit because I think when you say
[02:15:29] like I'm I get what you're saying but I
[02:15:31] think we can also see the amateur porn
[02:15:33] is on the rise yes and if we look at
[02:15:35] when you say only fans made 6.6 billion
[02:15:37] I think a big appeal in only fans is
[02:15:40] that you have much more normal looking
[02:15:42] people and so when when we look at the
[02:15:44] success of a business or not I I think
[02:15:46] there's also like a you know a varied
[02:15:48] market so people are looking for
[02:15:50] different things and I I think we're
[02:15:52] seeing that there like even as porn
[02:15:55] becomes highly overly produced and stuff
[02:15:58] there's kind of this like almost
[02:15:59] paradoxical upswing in amateur content
[02:16:03] in things like only fans where you have
[02:16:05] someone who really is closer to the girl
[02:16:07] next door when we're talking about a
[02:16:08] heteronormative sort of situation and
[02:16:11] and I think we can also see that in in
[02:16:13] we see that Trend all over the place
[02:16:15] right so as we get short form content
[02:16:17] we're also seeing an explosion in
[02:16:19] podcasts so I think there's a variable
[02:16:21] consumer there I was looking as you were
[02:16:23] speaking at the top 10 earners on only
[02:16:26] fans and I have to say none of them
[02:16:28] look like they reflect the average
[02:16:30] person yeah so the top 10 earners won't
[02:16:34] top 20 no no no you can't look at the
[02:16:36] top you have to look at what percentage
[02:16:38] of the six billion comes from the top 10
[02:16:40] earners and what percentage comes from
[02:16:42] other people I right so so is only fans
[02:16:46] of the kind of thing where it's like you
[02:16:47] know the majority of the revenue is
[02:16:49] earned by the top 10 earners or is it
[02:16:51] this kind of thing where the top 10
[02:16:52] earners get maybe uh 50% but then 50% is
[02:16:56] like a pretty wide variety that's the
[02:16:58] statistic you need to look at I can tell
[02:17:00] you that what we do see is that people
[02:17:03] search a lot on our sites for real sex
[02:17:07] it's a a concept that people are really
[02:17:10] looking for I also looked at PornHub
[02:17:12] this is the first time I've gone on
[02:17:13] PornHub at work just to see again that
[02:17:16] that the the most viewed uh porn stars
[02:17:19] on PornHub and it's the same reflection
[02:17:21] none of them look like the average
[02:17:23] person you know I'm looking at the
[02:17:25] heterosexual so I'm looking at women and
[02:17:26] men and they all look like
[02:17:29] manakins all 30 of them well I think you
[02:17:33] and your team need to do more
[02:17:36] research you can't you can't accept an
[02:17:38] answer his
[02:17:40] values okay closing statements closing
[02:17:43] thoughts we've talked about a lot today
[02:17:45] so I want to go clockwise starting with
[02:17:46] Dr Reena Malik um what are your closing
[02:17:48] thoughts and statements to the wide
[02:17:50] variety of people that would have
[02:17:51] clicked on this video for the wide
[02:17:52] variety of reasons whether they're
[02:17:54] parents whether they're the young men
[02:17:55] that struggle that you often spend your
[02:17:57] time dealing with Dr K what are your
[02:17:58] clothing closing thoughts for them but
[02:18:00] also we have a lot of people that are in
[02:18:02] government that listen and we only found
[02:18:03] that out because sometimes they reach
[02:18:04] out to us doctors reach out to us people
[02:18:06] in Parliament um in Congress Etc reach
[02:18:08] out to us so what would your statement
[02:18:10] be to all of those people my closing
[02:18:11] thoughts are invest in education about
[02:18:13] your body and about sex so whether that
[02:18:16] means learning what your Anatomy is and
[02:18:18] learning what real sex is and I think
[02:18:21] that is of Paramount importance to
[02:18:23] having a successful relationship with
[02:18:26] yourself and your partners that you can
[02:18:27] enjoy sex and use pornography for
[02:18:30] curiosity and not for
[02:18:32] boredom yeah I I think um remember that
[02:18:35] your body is learning all the time and
[02:18:38] that we think about pornography and its
[02:18:41] negative effect which it can have a
[02:18:42] negative effect so I I'd start with
[02:18:43] really understanding you know what
[02:18:45] pornography is doing for you what's the
[02:18:47] root of your relationship with it and
[02:18:49] also recognize that
[02:18:51] I mean it's I I really do think after
[02:18:52] this conversation that pornography can
[02:18:54] be a force for good and many of the
[02:18:56] reasons that you may be watching it you
[02:18:58] know if you transition to erotic film if
[02:19:00] you use it to in a sexual relationship
[02:19:03] like it doesn't have to be a bad thing
[02:19:05] it's the way that you relate to it and
[02:19:08] you know really think about how you can
[02:19:09] utilize it in a healthier way and if you
[02:19:12] are a consumer think about what you are
[02:19:16] watching see if there's an about page
[02:19:19] can you learn anything about that
[02:19:21] company about these directors producers
[02:19:24] performers can you watch them behind the
[02:19:26] scene footage something that makes you
[02:19:29] feel that you align with the values of
[02:19:33] the people who are creating it because
[02:19:36] not all porn is monolithic there's many
[02:19:40] different kinds out there and there's
[02:19:42] many great people working in this
[02:19:46] industry to spread sex positivity
[02:19:51] and a better acceptance of our desires
[02:19:56] fantasies sexual lives uh who are
[02:20:00] interested in the erotica the erotic
[02:20:03] aspects of sexuality I I also think it's
[02:20:06] worth saying you know we've talked
[02:20:07] widely about the subject of pornography
[02:20:09] um but one of the things that I really
[02:20:11] did come to believe and I saw when there
[02:20:14] was a call to ban only fans was that
[02:20:17] only fans as a website and as a platform
[02:20:19] is allowing
[02:20:21] porn stars and you know adult actresses
[02:20:24] and um actors to have a safer way to
[02:20:28] make their money to do their business
[02:20:30] and previously what you'd seen is there
[02:20:31] was um much of the escorting industry
[02:20:34] which was much more of a dangerous
[02:20:35] industry have now move over towards
[02:20:38] these platforms which do provide greater
[02:20:39] safety for a behavior that is going to
[02:20:42] happen irrespective of whether there's
[02:20:44] um a ban in place or not we have a
[02:20:47] closing tradition on this podcast as you
[02:20:48] all know um you might not know this
[02:20:52] um where the last guest leaves a
[02:20:53] question for the next guest and because
[02:20:54] the last guest was you I'm going to I'm
[02:20:56] going to skip past it and I opened up
[02:20:57] the book to a question that's sort
[02:21:00] landed before that so I'm going to ask
[02:21:01] you all this question individually and
[02:21:03] I'd love to hear your answers what can
[02:21:05] you do to improve humanity and the life
[02:21:10] of all the people that are
[02:21:13] listening I think continue educating
[02:21:16] people on and empowering people to to
[02:21:19] know what they're bodies are doing and
[02:21:21] how they can relate to the opposite sex
[02:21:23] if they're heterosexual um in order to
[02:21:26] have a satisfying sex life it's not just
[02:21:28] an extracurricular activity it's
[02:21:30] something that we do that's a part of
[02:21:31] our innate biology and it's important
[02:21:34] and
[02:21:36] valuable yeah I mean I I think um
[02:21:39] showing up tomorrow is like the most
[02:21:41] important thing like not here but like
[02:21:43] Ju Just you know if we think about
[02:21:45] improving Humanity like human like you
[02:21:47] know decisions are made by those who
[02:21:48] show up so I think the most important
[02:21:50] thing that I can do is just showing up
[02:21:52] and continuing to do what I think is
[02:21:54] best the most important thing that all
[02:21:56] of us can do is just continue showing up
[02:21:58] uh the majority of the people that I
[02:22:00] work with in my community the biggest
[02:22:01] problem they have is sometimes not
[02:22:03] showing
[02:22:04] up uh I would say connect with other
[02:22:07] people on a deep
[02:22:09] level uh dare to have difficult
[02:22:14] conversations there to be wrong because
[02:22:17] I also think that we live now in a
[02:22:19] society where so many people are so
[02:22:21] afraid of being wrong of saying
[02:22:24] something wrong of that sometimes they
[02:22:27] don't even dare to connect on a deeper
[02:22:31] level with other people you your point
[02:22:34] um Erica your answer about being okay to
[02:22:38] be wrong I think is really really
[02:22:39] important to a lot of the conversations
[02:22:41] we've had today because most of the time
[02:22:43] people don't want to have these
[02:22:44] conversations because they're sort of
[02:22:45] ideologically attached to a certain
[02:22:47] position typically the position that's
[02:22:49] associated with whatever their job is or
[02:22:51] you know their incentive structure and I
[02:22:53] think sometimes it's important to have
[02:22:54] these open Nuance discussions like we've
[02:22:55] had today because we can all start to
[02:22:57] learn a little bit about other people's
[02:22:59] worlds and bring down some of those sort
[02:23:00] of ideological walls that keep us
[02:23:02] imprisoned and all progress I think is
[02:23:05] happens when you have this sort of com
[02:23:07] this conflict of ideas but with the
[02:23:10] purpose not of you know proving someone
[02:23:12] is wrong or you're more intelligent or
[02:23:13] whatever but through the purpose and the
[02:23:15] lens of progress and that's why this
[02:23:17] conversation has been so enlightening to
[02:23:19] me because I get to see a bunch of
[02:23:21] different worlds from a bunch of
[02:23:22] different perspectives and I can use
[02:23:23] that to form my own opinion on the
[02:23:25] subject of pornography and I will start
[02:23:27] by saying that my opinion of pornography
[02:23:29] has actually changed in this
[02:23:31] conversation because there was clearly
[02:23:34] parts of my understanding of pornography
[02:23:36] that were in the dark and those lights
[02:23:39] have been turned on so now I have a more
[02:23:40] contextual picture of the industry thank
[02:23:43] you so much for your time today I really
[02:23:45] really appreciate it it's um as I said a
[02:23:47] second ago it's super inspiring and
[02:23:48] super enlightening for me to get all of
[02:23:50] these perspectives and to use all of
[02:23:51] this new information to reform my own
[02:23:53] opinion on the subject matter in a much
[02:23:55] more naive sort of biased way so I
[02:23:59] really appreciate the time that you've
[02:24:00] all given us today and uh uh on behalf
[02:24:03] of all my audience as well thank you so
[02:24:04] much appreciate all of you thank
[02:24:08] [Music]
[02:24:10] Youk isn't this cool every single
[02:24:13] conversation I have here on the D CEO at
[02:24:15] the very end of it you'll know I asked
[02:24:17] the guest to leave a question in the the
[02:24:20] Diary of a CEO and what we've done is
[02:24:23] we've turned every single question
[02:24:25] written in the Diary of a CEO into these
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[02:24:35] of it if you scan that QR code you get
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[02:25:02] recommend acting quickly
[02:25:05] [Music]