# Europe's photonics scaleup scene: what's working, what isn't, and who should be allowed to fail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83JrCuT3t4M

[00:00] Let's get the ball rolling.
[00:01] There are many reasons why we are in Brussels, but in particular when we talk about manufacturing, manufacturing is always done at a location for a reason.
[00:13] And we wanted to come to Brussels because for many years innovation in the manufacturing of photonics has been receiving not only money but also interest from Europe to have a center of excellence that links innovation in the main R&D centers in Europe towards industry and we have lots of nonphotonic companies in the world that today they're using photonics because of that activity that they started being called atmos they was called afast act 4.0 you know photon hub photon factory but it's all about linking linking innovation in universities in R&D centers with the needs on photonic and nonphotonic companies and that was magic unique in
[01:01] the world that was an idea by Hugo team
[01:05] who was also my boss 25 years ago it is so great to come back to Brussels and share the stage with going on my idols
[01:15] professor Timon Hugo Timon friend Hugo
[01:18] Thank you very much for having us in Brussels.
[01:25] The floor and the attention of all our friends is yours.
[01:32] Thank you. Thank you very much, Jose.
[01:34] Um, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Brussels and welcome to the global advanced manufacturing alliance.
[01:41] A fantastic initiative by Optica, but also a absolutely top initiative by the CTO Jose Poso.
[01:46] I was never his boss. I was his professor.
[01:49] He was my student 25 years ago. Never your boss. But okay.
[01:55] Um this being said, I think you noticed by now by the flyers on your chairs, but also by uh the slide here that we had
[02:03] The privilege to co-host this uh this meeting.
[02:06] Um and Jose asked me to introduce you briefly in the next 10 15 minutes to to Photon Hub.
[02:12] Uh what is Photon Hub?
[02:15] Was his question.
[02:18] Please explain our audience what what you're doing and where you try to make the difference.
[02:22] So Photon Hub is a flagship project of the public private partnership Photonix 21 and it is funded by the European Union.
[02:30] Um its main mission is to be the gateway to photonix innovation both for European companies and in particulars and entrepreneurial-minded researchers.
[02:43] And so the question is what do we do?
[02:46] Well, the first thing we would like to do is to make sure that photonix continues to thrive.
[02:50] I think we all know that photonix has a real world impact to improve the quality of life and that's what we all try to pursue.
[02:58] So if we think about LED lighting, solar, fiberet, high resolution displays,
[03:04] medical optics, lasers in manufacturing,
[03:07] those are all uh present-day great applications of of photonics.
[03:12] That makes that photonics the last 20 years has consistently seen a compound annual growth rate of 7% which is growing five times faster than the global um industry.
[03:22] So photonix is great to work with not only from a technical point of view but also from a commercial point of view but what we have been seeing the last uh decade or so is that photonix is now also driving innovation across all industry domains.
[03:37] Photonix once was a sector in its own right.
[03:40] Okay.
[03:42] Technologically photonix companies for photonix companies.
[03:45] But now all that photonix is pervading those uh companies from all industry domains being it health, agriculture and food, manufacturing, climate, mobility, energy, safety, security and space.
[03:57] So if we would like those companies to um to work with photonix uh and a lot of those companies
[04:06] from those industry sectors don't know too much about photonix then we need to help them.
[04:12] we need to support them across the entire innovation valley of that and if we do so we can continue that growth in the key digital area like uh like photonix and so our main goal uh is twofold.
[04:24] First of all, we'd like to provide those companies with deep technology support.
[04:29] That means we're going to follow them across the entire innovation value of debt from TRL's one to nine from idea to feasibility study, prototyping, upscaling, manufacturing up to commercial um diffusion.
[04:45] Uh that is what we call the deeper technology support.
[04:47] But it seems that and that is what we did 10 years ago, 5 years ago.
[04:52] But it seems that that's not enough.
[04:53] They also need business coaching and investment coaching and in particular investment coaching because at certain moments along that innovation value of death um they need money and that money
[05:06] Often comes from venture capitalists.
[05:09] So we're going to support those companies both with deep technology support and with business and investment coaching.
[05:14] Um here see you see some of our key principles and today people accept those key principles but a couple of years ago it was still very controversial.
[05:22] Um one of the things we really do is rather than doing a technology push we meet with the companies and we talk about their innovation challenges which is something very very different.
[05:36] Okay.
[05:38] We listen to the challenges they have not to their problems.
[05:40] Companies don't have problems they only have challenges.
[05:42] So we work with them.
[05:44] We try to understand their challenges and then we're going to try to work with them to overcome those those challenges.
[05:50] Um secondly, we focus on small medium-sized enterprises because they make up the majority of the companies in Europe.
[05:59] We also work with large scale companies but there the funding uh support is a little bit different and that is because of the European Commission asking us to to have
[06:08] or to handle that differently.
[06:11] And we are now also focusing on the entrepreneurial researchers.
[06:13] Researchers that want to set up their own startup, their spin-offs.
[06:17] They need a lot of support.
[06:19] But that is, I think, the lifeblood of European industry for the decades to come.
[06:25] We focus on what we call early adopters.
[06:28] That means companies that have not worked with photonix before or that just started working with photonix.
[06:36] Okay?
[06:38] and that absolutely need our expertise and access to some of our technology platforms.
[06:44] The companies don't receive funding.
[06:47] We are not redistributing the money from the commission.
[06:49] We're not handing out vouchers.
[06:50] What we do is we provide both technology and financial support to those companies and we pay our partners with the money from the commission uh because of their efforts.
[07:00] We're not uh reallocating funding from from the commission.
[07:03] I'll explain that later on.
[07:09] Um, our focus is of course to deliver very nice feasibility studies, prototyping, upscaling projects, uh, proof of concept demonstrators, uh, industry uh, um, components.
[07:17] But our KPIs towards the commission are three-fold.
[07:23] One, how many new jobs we can create with the companies, how many new revenues we can generate with the companies when they go to the market with that new product.
[07:31] And thirdly, how much VC capital we have been facilitating or we have been raising for those companies.
[07:41] So Photon hub consists of 33 innovation partners, 30 partners are technology support partners, three partners are business support partners and you can see there on the dots on the European map that we have a nice European dimension.
[07:57] So how do we work?
[08:01] Well, we have a pool of 3 to 400 photonix experts, experts in all different aspects of photonix.
[08:10] and they're ready to transfer their knowhow and their expertise to companies and to work with companies to move their products forward.
[08:17] Um secondly those technology experts come from research and technology organizations and they do have access to prototyping services prototyping platforms but also pilot lines and foundaries.
[08:31] So the combination of on the one hand the technology expertise and on the other hand the access to the technology platforms I think is rather unique.
[08:42] Um I'll say a few words more uh in a couple of minutes.
[08:46] And secondly, and in parallel, we're supporting them with business and investment expertise by training them in pitching for VCs or by helping them optimizing their business plan.
[08:59] So here you see the eight technology platforms that we have.
[09:01] Um you can select one of these platforms individually or we can use a combination
[09:10] of some of the technology platforms in order to support the company.
[09:14] And we do that and or each technology platform provides support either in prototyping or pilot line production and foundary services.
[09:24] So we have free space optics specialty fibers laserbased manufacturing.
[09:28] There are three platforms on photonic integrated circuits one silicon silicon nitrite one on indium phospite one on lithium nobate.
[09:34] We have a MOM's platform or several MOM platforms and packaging uh platforms.
[09:41] Each technology platform supports the full supply chain um from modeling to prototyping and manufacturing to methology, quality control all the way to building proof of concept demonstrators or industrial prototypes and there is a link to the EU manufacturing.
[09:57] So that is I think really important.
[10:01] You can help companies as much as you want uh up to the industrial prototypes.
[10:05] If then they want to mass manufacture it, they need companies to do the mass manufacturing unless they do it themselves, but that's a huge
[10:11] Investment. Okay.
[10:13] So, we try to help them out with linking them to the EU manufacturing links.
[10:15] What are the steps for Photonix innovation?
[10:17] So, the first thing of course is that the company interested in our support needs to register online and then under NDA, we're going to talk to them.
[10:24] We're going to just have a first chat with them and see what their problem really is and whether we can help that company.
[10:30] Once we see that there is an opportunity and it's a high potential then we are sending two people to the company.
[10:39] One is a technology expert because we now know what the technology challenge of the company is and the other one is the business expert.
[10:45] So both of them go and meet with the company to check out whether we can really help them out with our technology support and whether the business plan that they have is okay because we can only work with about 100 companies in four years time because the amount of money if we get from the commission 19 million euros is limited.
[11:05] um and and I think that's important therefore that we select the high potentials once we see that both the
[11:12] business case and the technology demand is is perfect in line with what we can deliver.
[11:17] Um we appoint a project leader.
[11:19] The project leader writes the project proposal.
[11:21] So not much administration for the company.
[11:23] Uh of course we want to translate the needs of the company into that project.
[11:28] But it's a short project.
[11:30] Okay.
[11:30] That project is submitted to an external evaluation team.
[11:32] Uh all of that happens within two to three months between registering online and the evaluation of the project.
[11:40] We then move forward if the project has been granted.
[11:42] we move forward to uh the signing of the contract and we can kick off.
[11:47] Of course, you will say how much do I need to pay as as company?
[11:50] Well, the answer is that first of all, these projects are very strongly subsidized by the commission with a minimum of 85% of the project budget covered by Photon Hub.
[12:02] So, the project leader writes the project comes up with a project budget.
[12:08] Suppose the project budget is 100k
[12:13] then we are covering 91k
[12:17] and we ask a cash contribution of the company of 9k.
[12:19] I think that's perfectly reasonable more than reasonable for uh large scale companies.
[12:24] The commission says 50% is more than enough.
[12:26] And so with this approach um we're going to help companies from TRL's 2 all the way to TRL 7.
[12:34] Until a couple of years ago, we were only allowed to work up to TRL five.
[12:39] But now the commission also allowed us to go beyond that to come much closer to the market.
[12:46] Okay.
[12:49] And so that deep technology support is something we do since since many many years uh to the great satisfaction of the of the companies and in parallel because that's really new, we support them with business and investment coaching with investment readiness levels from one to nine.
[13:03] And what we have seen is that there are two types of coaching really needed.
[13:05] One for startups and spin-offs.
[13:08] So the very early stage and here we work
[13:14] with researchers that want to set up their companies.
[13:15] Okay.
[13:17] And we call that the launch path.
[13:21] And we're coaching the the those entrepreneurial minded researchers with their business plan.
[13:25] with the training them to pitch for VCs as you're going to see immediately.
[13:28] And then what we've also seen is there is a huge gap in the innovation value of death.
[13:33] There's a huge gap between the five and six.
[13:35] So here you end up with a very nice prototype, but then you need to scale that up.
[13:40] And to scale up, we've we've seen that many companies once they have a nice pro prototype, put that prototype in the drawer and say, "Okay, very great.
[13:48] We're here now at this stage, but we don't have the funding to move that forward.
[13:52] And that's an issue.
[13:54] So that's where the scaling club comes in.
[13:57] It's a club that we we created with all those medium small medium-sized enterprise that want to really scale up and that need venture capital.
[14:03] And so we've called to life three um very special uh cases and that is one we've called to life the lounge path as I said
[14:15] that's really for entrepreneurally minded researchers and startups where we coach them uh to find the VC funding.
[14:21] We have the scaling club for fast scaling ventures.
[14:23] Okay.
[14:25] And we do all of that with our colleagues from Techour and we organize the European Photonix Venture Forum that uh is bringing all those companies together with about 15 venture capitalists.
[14:35] Um and there first we are coaching and mentoring both the uh researchers and the scaling ventures to the great success of of them.
[14:45] Okay.
[14:48] And that success can be seen here.
[14:51] Here are a couple of success stories to demonstrate our our impact.
[14:52] These are uh parts of uh news items that uh we find on the on the web.
[14:58] Uh all of these companies have been working with us to build uh or to do the feasibility studies to build their first prototypes and so we are derisking that stage prior for them to go to the VCs.
[15:12] So those VCs see these companies, they see already
[15:16] very nice uh demonstrators, they see nice uh uh proof of concept demonstrators or or prototypes and of course the uh the threshold for investing in them is lowered.
[15:27] So you see here a couple of companies like Fluid, Pixel Photonics, Amaz Genoa Instruments, Finchettto.
[15:34] I think one of the people from Finchettto here is in in the room.
[15:35] Yeah, over there.
[15:38] um these these people have been working or these companies have been working with us and and and this is the amount of uh funding that they raised 1 million 1 million it's not a lot it's a 2 and a half million so it but it it's a gamecher for them so this is at the start phase you have then um medium-sized enterprises that are already in the scale up phase and that need typical tickets of five six 7 million euros you see photon IP inspec astrape matter wave uh A I mean aonics for example they you you see you see that here that very nice tickets most of those companies that go to the European Photonics Venture Forum have about 75% chance of getting that ticket
[16:18] the first time they're pitching and then you see the big guys or the big tickets.
[16:22] let me say it differently um Sway.
[16:24] Photonix Ironics a few others 20 to 27 and 28 million euros and some of the companies have been working with us and uh Jose introduced that to you um since the early days of our access centers with act and actfast 4.0 zero pilot.
[16:41] photonics is is one of them but here these are other examples K labs raising 57 million to ramp up production of optical ground station here I must say photon hub is no longer intervening but it's very nice to see that the embryo that we once planted or the seed that we once planted is now growing uh very very very fast and doing very well and the same here embionics this is not about uh big tickets but creating jobs 125 jobs created in the Iris sector uh and and that is because we one way or another supported uh them.
[17:13] So over the last four years this is the impact that we created.
[17:17] We have been
[17:19] working with around 100 companies.
[17:22] based on their um business plans, we created and as soon as they went to market and in the next five years of going to market, we created 1.5 billion euros of new revenues for them.
[17:30] Um we created 1,500 new jobs and we facilitated the injection of uh more than€450 million euros of new venture capital.
[17:41] Um and and all of that with about 15 or 20 million euros.
[17:43] So I think the commission is very happy to support uh this um and it's a great way to link universities and RTO's with companies European companies.
[17:56] So to summarize um PhotonHub is driving Photonix innovation across all industry domains especially for those companies that never worked with um Photonix before.
[18:07] We're a one-stop shop which means we try to be the umbrella organization uh including a lot of the foundaries, the pilot lines and the prototyping services and all the
[18:20] experts top experts.
[18:23] Um we provide a seamless support from TLS 22 to7 by different projects especially follow on projects.
[18:29] So you start at TLS 3 and you go to five you go to seven.
[18:34] Um and we do that with projects with a typical duration of 9 months.
[18:38] That's for mainly free space optics.
[18:42] But once the photonic integrated circuits are involved, we know that it's 12 or even 18 months.
[18:46] Um, the concrete results are that for every project of 9 months, we increase the TRL by one or two and we focus on business acceleration and scaling.
[18:53] Okay.
[18:57] And so I I hope with this I've briefly explained to you um who we are, what we do, what we try to accomplish.
[19:04] Um, if you're interested in what we're doing, um, please contact us.
[19:08] I'm here the rest of the day and tomorrow.
[19:12] And my colleagues Natalie Debbas and Bamin Lanos are also here.
[19:14] Um, yeah, please contact us if you need uh or if you have complaints.
[19:18] I'm I will also be be here.
[19:20] You never know
[19:22] What's going to happen.
[19:23] Thank you for your attention.
[19:24] Wishing you a great conference.
[19:28] Thank you.
[19:28] Thank you very much, Hugo.
[19:30] It is great great to be here.
[19:32] Everybody come over here.
[19:35] Everybody gets to answer the fantastic optica question.
[19:38] So it is very clear what you do.
[19:39] What can you do for them?
[19:42] And what can all these they are my friends.
[19:43] What can they do for you?
[19:44] Well, it depends of course on who who they are and what they're doing.
[19:51] But if you're a manufacturer or an integrator, you're playing an absolutely vital role.
[19:53] Okay.
[19:53] And we need your support and I think you need our leads.
[19:59] Um, so that's the win-win situation in in in my opinion.
[20:01] Okay, we can bring the companies as far as possible, but if we don't find the integrators, if we don't find the manufacturers, we're back to zero.
[20:10] Okay, and that has always been the goal.
[20:13] The goal has not been to spend EU funding.
[20:17] The goal has been to support EU manufacturing,
[20:22] manufacturing in EU, and to keep our
[20:25] high-tech here, okay? and not outside
[20:28] Europe.
[20:30] Sorry for my very strong opinion on
[20:32] that, but um we spent 20 years on it and
[20:35] we we try to keep going. Hope for your
[20:38] support. There's a lot of companies in
[20:41] the room today who are doing
[20:42] manufacturing in Europe and I would like
[20:45] to see how this activity and especially
[20:48] factory coming links to them. I'm
[20:50] looking at one company that doing a 35
[20:53] on silicon into high volume production
[20:56] is getting interest from all over the
[20:57] world and that company is called Cintil.
[20:59] You're going to be a panelist later but
[21:01] I would like to see because you are
[21:02] representing the the wafer level
[21:04] manufacturing enabling volume production
[21:07] of 351 silicon. What is your main
[21:09] takeaway from the presentation from Hugo
[21:11] and most important how do you see the
[21:12] funding that you could get for your
[21:14] activity and the collaboration with
[21:16] potential customer enabling your
[21:18] business? Yeah.
[21:20] >> Oh, thank you Jose. Um, so we started
[21:25] before the creation of photo. I think
[21:27] that we had some uh discussion earlier.
[21:29] So we started in 2018 and u the
[21:33] foundations of what we've been doing it
[21:34] was silicon footning based and what
[21:38] we've been looking is
[21:40] foundry in Europe that could do this or
[21:44] that can take us from where we were or
[21:47] from where from where the technology
[21:49] from an R&D center to a foundry and we
[21:52] couldn't find that in Europe that was
[21:54] for the foundry but beyond that we are
[21:58] lucky we are based in Gambia There is a
[21:59] strong ecosystem for semiconductor. We
[22:01] could find a lot of partner and we've
[22:03] been working with most of the European
[22:07] ecosystem but
[22:11] the challenge that we had was really to
[22:14] have people believing in in our vision.
[22:16] That was
[22:18] our challenge to
[22:21] have people working with us through that
[22:24] challenge of going from nothings to
[22:26] something that could be big and
[22:28] believing in our vision. Yeah. So I I
[22:30] personally think that advocacy of these
[22:32] things is is really really important. Uh
[22:35] we try to do that at the highest level
[22:37] of the European Commission. Now
[22:39] everybody can say I mean whatever you
[22:40] think about the European Commission
[22:42] let's not forget that one way or another
[22:44] they determine the strategy also at the
[22:46] national and the regional levels okay if
[22:49] it's not preached by the commission
[22:52] local regions many cases won't follow so
[22:55] for us it's very important to tell the
[22:57] commission look foundaries are important
[23:00] pilot lines are important technology
[23:02] keeping technology in Europe is
[23:04] important it took us many years to tell
[23:06] them okay and now also making sure that
[23:09] the top companies with technology are
[23:11] not just being acquired by
[23:16] the big players all over the world. We
[23:18] should try to keep them here in in in
[23:21] Europe. Okay. Secondly, there is the
[23:23] funding. The funding if Europe puts
[23:26] money in foundaries in pilot lines, then
[23:30] the regions might follow. If the
[23:33] commission says no we stop supporting
[23:36] pilot lines then the regions will say if
[23:39] the commission doesn't do it why should
[23:41] we do it and three photonics is still
[23:44] after all these years not enough known
[23:49] to the commission we continue to fight
[23:52] time and time again to make sure that
[23:54] photonix remains a key digital
[23:57] technology on their agenda. Okay. and
[24:00] we're fighting AI and we're fighting
[24:02] quantum and we're fighting whatever and
[24:05] fighting means making sure that there is
[24:08] earmarked budget for photonix. So at
[24:10] this moment and with Photonix 21, we're
[24:13] trying to make sure that for the next
[24:15] framework program, the commission would
[24:17] earmark the funding with €2 billion.
[24:21] Okay, still it's a drop on a hot plate,
[24:24] but if there's nothing there, we will
[24:26] also not be able to convince neither VCs
[24:29] nor others to invest the money in here.
[24:32] So it's a very difficult thing and we're
[24:35] trying to set up an ecosystem both with
[24:38] the RTO's, the universities, the
[24:41] photonics industry, the photonix enabled
[24:44] industry, the manufacturers and the
[24:47] integrators and the VCs. And that is for
[24:50] us the next big thing to do because if
[24:52] we don't stick together, we won't be
[24:54] able to use the win-win situation.
[24:58] >> Any questions, comments, or ideas?
[25:01] Yes, my good friend in Natio Argentini
[25:05] is a nontechnical question, but uh you
[25:08] mentioned that photonics is not yet
[25:10] visible at the EU level and a few years
[25:13] back there's been a a great risk that
[25:15] photonics will simply be swallowed more
[25:18] in general by ICT and therefore become
[25:21] totally invisible which I think is a
[25:24] risk that somehow at least temporarily
[25:26] it has been overcome. What makes, you
[25:29] know, is a is not a provocative
[25:31] question, but what makes the EU so so
[25:36] blind to to the need of keeping
[25:39] photonics as a key enabling technology
[25:42] is people is the general trends of where
[25:46] our politicians are going. You know, you
[25:48] might not want to answer this, but you
[25:50] know, but uh is an issue I wanted to
[25:52] raise.
[25:53] >> I can have a go answering that after
[25:54] Hugo. I have my thoughts, but I let you
[25:56] go first.
[25:57] >> Okay. Just want to add one thing this
[26:00] >> I agree with what you said but what we
[26:02] should admit is we've been supported by
[26:04] the EU by the EU through the uh European
[26:08] um accelerator consult. So we had
[26:11] support from the EU for building and for
[26:14] building our vision. So
[26:15] >> is I was talking about more of the
[26:19] absolutely
[26:19] >> industrial partner that have to invest
[26:21] in the future but the EU has been
[26:23] investing. I'm not complaining about the
[26:26] EU. I'm complaining about the fact that
[26:29] the EU should put more money into what
[26:33] we're doing. Because so many years ago,
[26:37] 20, 25, 30, 40 years ago, Europe was
[26:40] very strong in whatever LEDs, uh,
[26:44] semiconductor industry, uh, screens, LCD
[26:48] displays, and then it was no longer
[26:51] needed to support it. Okay? And so after
[26:54] some time we lost it and that can happen
[26:56] with photonics as well. So we're trying
[26:58] to continuously tell them how important
[27:01] it is and especially with the impact
[27:03] we're creating and the economy that that
[27:06] we're having in in Europe still and
[27:09] that's the controversial part of your
[27:11] question. Why doesn't the commission
[27:15] continues to support? Well, I think it
[27:18] is because there are certain hypes hypes
[27:20] that they need to follow. Okay, I I I'm
[27:22] not saying AI is a hype and quantum is a
[27:25] hype, but it is a hype for the
[27:28] commission, but since this is a limited
[27:31] budget,
[27:33] somewhere you have to cut if you need to
[27:34] put more money in something else. Okay?
[27:38] And then the weakest link is being cut
[27:40] off. That's what I have seen happening
[27:44] time and time again. But that is why a
[27:46] partnership like Photonix 21 is
[27:49] extremely important because we can make
[27:52] a difference. I spend 20% of my time
[27:55] with the commission talking,
[27:57] negotiating, telling them time and time
[27:59] and time again where they need to put
[28:02] their money. I think there's a lot of
[28:03] comments and opinions. So we have a lot
[28:07] of time. Leon Gans, we're going to start
[28:08] your presentation later. Let's discuss
[28:10] this a very very interesting topic
[28:12] because I see a lot of hands up
[28:14] >> comment on that as well
[28:15] >> and this is key. I'm going to go first
[28:17] to Ben. He raised a hand then have
[28:19] another hand up and then I come to you
[28:20] later on.
[28:22] >> Thank you very much Jose. Um
[28:25] Benatis
[28:27] uh um we we know all the effort you put
[28:32] you and Photonix 21 on on um pushing
[28:36] photonics in the European Commission. um
[28:41] we push also that in for example in
[28:43] France
[28:45] um but what I've been observing is that
[28:48] the photonic industry gets what it
[28:51] deserve. Um I was
[28:55] well it's for for many years many many
[28:58] all the biggest players in photonix have
[29:01] not
[29:03] supporting all your efforts and they
[29:06] were not in the commission to to explain
[29:09] what photonic is what it can do what the
[29:12] return on investment I've been
[29:14] discussing with some of the main leaders
[29:16] in Europe in in in France of the
[29:19] photonic industry and when we talk to
[29:22] them about the need for a public private
[29:25] mart a bigger one those two billions
[29:28] they they don't seem that interested
[29:32] they don't seem that involved so um I'm
[29:39] I I don't really know what to say the
[29:41] the European Commission they in terms of
[29:44] technology they
[29:47] they react on what they are given so we
[29:51] have to give more as a community
[29:54] uh as a very tiny company we are trying
[29:57] to do our best but all of us we have to
[30:00] commit and all of us and especially the
[30:03] big ones
[30:05] um and well
[30:06] >> yeah uh I'm really glad first of all
[30:10] that you're there Tim Tatis because you
[30:12] do a fantastic job honestly speaking I
[30:15] don't think anybody else can come up
[30:17] with all those numbers in such a short
[30:18] time as we're asking from Photonix 21 is
[30:21] really giving us a lot of mu ammunition
[30:25] to go to the commission and say look
[30:27] that that's it okay without you that
[30:28] would not be possible so first of all
[30:30] thank you so much secondly I think
[30:33] you're pinpointing to something that is
[30:36] absolutely true I mean the big big
[30:39] companies
[30:41] they have their market they have their
[30:43] products they really don't care I think
[30:46] about what's happening at a lower level
[30:48] but they they should not forget
[30:51] that it is at the early stages both at
[30:54] universities at startups spin-offs
[30:56] smallmediumsized enterprises a lot of
[30:59] work is happening and ongoing that feeds
[31:02] into what they're going to do because
[31:04] they can do the acquisitions okay they
[31:06] have the money to do so okay so they
[31:09] forget it they just think with money I
[31:11] can do everything and whatever is
[31:13] happening downstairs or elsewhere we
[31:15] really don't care and that is that's not
[31:18] really good at photonix 21 We're asking
[31:20] that the president of Photonix 21 should
[31:22] be a person from a company from
[31:24] industry, a big industry in Photonix.
[31:27] And it's very hard to find them. Okay?
[31:30] It's very hard to find people that
[31:32] devote time to it. Okay? And even then,
[31:35] as vice president of Phutonix 21, I'm
[31:38] giving most of the presentations. Okay?
[31:41] It is like um it's maybe a nice to have
[31:44] and yeah we'll do our duty but I think
[31:48] indeed it would be nice to have that
[31:50] full support from those companies so
[31:52] that they understand what we're trying
[31:54] to do at the earlier levels or the lower
[31:58] levels of uh R&D and and and feeding in.
[32:03] >> Please remind us your name and company.
[32:05] >> Yeah um Maric from Sinovat. you're
[32:08] investing in uh photonix companies and
[32:11] um I would like to comment um what is
[32:14] lacking in Europe is the demand side uh
[32:17] why your companies moving to the US it
[32:19] is because their customers are there so
[32:21] if Europe should do something it is
[32:24] really focus on application companies
[32:27] and make sure that we can sell the
[32:29] products into Europe you only need one
[32:32] foundry to make a lot of wafers I think
[32:34] in technology we are really great we
[32:37] have very good people but we don't have
[32:39] demand on this side.
[32:41] >> Exactly. And that is I think where
[32:43] Photon Hub really makes the difference.
[32:46] That is we're really trying to create a
[32:51] lot of new applications in all those
[32:53] industry sectors. And what I didn't give
[32:56] are um examples of the different
[33:00] companies we have been working with in
[33:01] all those industry sectors. And you
[33:03] would be surprised, you will really be
[33:05] surprised what type of applications they
[33:07] come up with. Okay. And once you have
[33:09] those applications, there is a need for
[33:11] the manufacturing. And once you have the
[33:13] need for the manufacturing, that happens
[33:16] in Europe. Okay? Because we only link to
[33:19] European companies. I'm sorry to say
[33:21] that, but we only link to EU
[33:24] manufacturing companies. We see very
[33:26] often that some of those companies
[33:27] immediately look to China because it's
[33:29] lower cost, etc., etc.
[33:31] We don't support them in that. Okay. And
[33:33] that's also because of course we are
[33:36] funded by the EU. But we're really
[33:38] trying to make a difference there. We
[33:40] try to create a demand as you said a
[33:43] demand for components integration
[33:46] manufacturing.
[33:48] >> L.
[33:50] >> Hi, I'm Lion Photonic Supply Service
[33:53] Partner. We are starting with a new
[33:55] venture diamonds 365. I strongly agree
[33:58] with uh your uh ideas and uh what you're
[34:01] presenting here. Uh how can we in this
[34:05] room support you with your plans with
[34:08] your uh battle?
[34:11] Spread the word. Word of mouth
[34:13] advertisement for Photon Hub. We have
[34:16] been trying to reach out through
[34:18] workshops. That doesn't work. Okay. Uh
[34:21] we've tried to reach out through social
[34:24] media. That doesn't work. What really
[34:26] works is make companies happy with the
[34:28] support and then you have the word of
[34:30] mouth advertisement and that after so
[34:33] many years is starting to work. So if
[34:35] you think this is a great idea, if you
[34:38] think that we are making a difference,
[34:40] the best thing is
[34:43] to tell about that and to talk about it
[34:45] and to have you have you checked with
[34:47] those guys. We're not there for 100%
[34:49] solution, but we try to do our utmost
[34:52] best and we make a difference. Daring.
[34:57] >> Yeah. Hi, uh Darren Burns from Idex.
[35:01] This is kind of a comment and a
[35:03] question. So, as a large company, um
[35:06] large international company, US based,
[35:09] but but manufacturing in in Europe as
[35:11] well as other places, one of the things
[35:13] that we and I constantly see, right, is
[35:16] that Europe has a
[35:19] incredible ability for innovation,
[35:22] right? lots of technology, lots of small
[35:25] companies, lots of spinouts, lots of
[35:27] support from from uh university sectors.
[35:31] We only wish we had that much in the US,
[35:34] right? But um when we try to bridge the
[35:37] gap between pulling that technology into
[35:41] say a US market or or maybe a larger
[35:44] market across the world, there's a big
[35:47] gap, right? and and even even we're a
[35:51] fairly acquisitive company. We tend to
[35:54] go out and find businesses and and bring
[35:56] them on and then bring them into full
[35:57] manufacturing. Um but that's a big leap
[36:00] with a lot of these small companies that
[36:02] you're talking about in that it could be
[36:04] years, it could be large amounts of
[36:06] money, it could be a balance sheet that
[36:08] shows no profitability um and no real
[36:11] path to get there. And that's pretty
[36:14] difficult for a company like ours to
[36:15] take a look at that and and put the
[36:17] money in, right? Um and and so I'm
[36:21] interested in maybe further
[36:23] conversations with yourself, but others
[36:24] here of how do we bridge that gap? How
[36:26] do we accelerate this awesome technology
[36:30] that exists in Europe to that, you know,
[36:33] within a couple of years like real
[36:35] profitability, real scale and
[36:37] manufacturing and not have it all go the
[36:39] way of just, you know, TM TSMC building
[36:43] everything that is photonix related,
[36:45] right? I mean, we have to solve for that
[36:47] problem.
[36:48] >> Yeah, I think that's uh that's right to
[36:51] the point. I mean, I I couldn't have
[36:52] said that better. That's the real issue
[36:56] we were facing. Okay. And we have only
[36:59] understood this 5 years ago, 7 8 years
[37:03] ago. Let's not forget I just I said that
[37:07] the commission up to 5 years ago, six,
[37:10] seven years ago only allowed us to
[37:12] support innovation
[37:14] up to TLS 5. Okay, which means we can
[37:19] help and then it's in the hands of the
[37:21] thememes or in the companies and that's
[37:23] it. and we don't even know what happens
[37:24] with the innovation we provide them
[37:26] with. So now, well, we convinced them to
[37:29] to allow us to go to the higher TRL
[37:31] levels, but of course that's easier said
[37:34] than done. At a certain moment, you have
[37:36] here the the problem of of funding. You
[37:40] they need a lot of money if they want to
[37:42] bring that prototype to to to the
[37:45] market. And
[37:48] the idea of VCs, that was not done until
[37:51] five or 10 years ago here in Europe. We
[37:54] don't have that track record. But we
[37:56] don't have that that history of working
[38:00] with VCs. Okay. Um
[38:03] please take time and you will see
[38:05] whether your product in the end will get
[38:07] there or your product will not be. Okay.
[38:11] And so that's what we're changing and we
[38:13] see that change gradually coming. It's
[38:16] not overnight. It's gradual. Okay. And
[38:19] the way to do that is to bring these
[38:21] people that want to scale together
[38:23] because then they see that there are
[38:24] others like them that want to go forward
[38:27] and that gives them the necessary trust
[38:30] to do it. Okay. So there is much more
[38:33] than just bringing the VCs together with
[38:35] it. No, you have to create confidence.
[38:37] You have to and and that is gradually
[38:39] growing. I hope it's not too late.
[38:42] >> Leonidia.
[38:44] >> Yeah. So um first of all you talked
[38:47] about that futonic doesn't get the
[38:49] visibility it needed but don't work
[38:51] against the hypes work with them. There
[38:54] is no AI without futonics. There is no
[38:56] quantum without futonics. This is the
[38:58] essential infrastructure.
[38:59] >> So that's so that's the first thing. The
[39:01] second thing I wanted to say something
[39:03] that along the lines of uh what Aaron
[39:05] said is that I think and and I'm going
[39:07] to be brutally honest here uh as an
[39:10] outsider and correct me if I'm wrong. uh
[39:13] look at who are the foundaries that are
[39:16] doing futonics now at scale this is TSMC
[39:18] global foundry Samsung these are
[39:20] foundaries that are their core business
[39:23] is semiconductors and I think from what
[39:26] I'm seeing and from what I participate
[39:28] in in European conferences you are
[39:31] trying to bridge the gaps but you are
[39:33] skipping the most important uh element
[39:36] and that's you need a big foundry in
[39:38] Europe that does semiconductors and once
[39:40] you have that and
[39:42] you you do have SD micro but I don't
[39:44] think that is enough uh because one of
[39:47] the first question and again this is my
[39:49] personal opinion on the matter is my
[39:51] first question to startup that comes
[39:53] from Europe can you scale this to TSMC
[39:56] can you scale this to global foundry and
[39:58] if you don't have these fabs in Europe
[40:01] then you are it doesn't matter how many
[40:04] VCs you will get to those startups it's
[40:07] not going to happen
[40:08] >> okay I'm going to first tackle your
[40:09] second question then you're going to
[40:10] remind me about your first because I
[40:12] forgot it already. What I'm going to say
[40:14] is very controversial like always and uh
[40:19] people may not like it, but I think
[40:21] indeed we need the big the big chip
[40:26] manufacturers to do it here in Europe.
[40:29] And that is why I think and please
[40:31] forgive me for what I'm going to say
[40:32] now, but that the money that the
[40:34] commission injected in the chips act in
[40:37] my personal opinion was invested in the
[40:39] wrong way. Okay, they have been submit
[40:44] or they have been funding and I have no
[40:46] problem with that. They have been
[40:47] funding with three billion euros
[40:50] fundamental research and technological
[40:52] research rather than the real
[40:55] manufacturing and that in my opinion has
[40:58] been the biggest mistake they've ever
[41:00] made and I told them so okay they don't
[41:03] like it but um I think
[41:06] investing one a.5 billion in IMC
[41:11] Flemish government €750 million euros
[41:13] for doing what for going to the next
[41:15] node that's not the way to go. Okay?
[41:18] Because they're licensing their
[41:19] technology all around the world. Okay?
[41:23] And we do not have our technological
[41:25] sovereignty nor our production
[41:27] capabilities. That's my honest opinion.
[41:29] Okay? I'm not a PICSS and a chip
[41:31] specialist, but from a strategic point
[41:33] of view, I think this is one of their
[41:35] biggest mistakes with a lot a lot of
[41:37] money. Well, according to the
[41:39] commission, that's a lot of money.
[41:40] That's not a lot of money for US or
[41:42] China or Asia. Okay, that's my opinion.
[41:45] Now, can you just very briefly your
[41:48] first
[41:51] >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I understand.
[41:54] >> Which is what we're trying to do. If you
[41:55] go to the photonix 21 uh website, you
[41:58] will see AI desperately needs photonics.
[42:01] There is a brochure and we made that
[42:03] together with I think Timatis. Okay.
[42:06] Quantum desperately needs photonics.
[42:07] Actually, quantum is photonics. Okay.
[42:10] Etc., etc. The problem we have with the
[42:12] commission is simple. They tell us if AI
[42:15] is important for you and quantum is
[42:17] important for you and we put money in AI
[42:19] and quantum submit your projects there
[42:21] and we don't give you earmarked funding
[42:23] for photonics.
[42:25] If that happens, we're dead because we
[42:28] lose our independence.
[42:31] We can no longer put our money where we
[42:33] think we should put the money.
[42:36] AI and quantum are going to be recording
[42:37] topics of this. We have two more
[42:39] questions and then we go to the next
[42:41] presentation. The first one Reinhardt
[42:44] >> so we all agree we have a lot of
[42:45] technology a lot of startups here and we
[42:47] don't have enough money for scaling but
[42:49] there's a misunderstanding about product
[42:52] market fit in the US you get money for
[42:56] technology readiness level three four in
[42:59] Europe we feed them up all through uh
[43:01] technology readiness level six seven
[43:03] with family friends fools and government
[43:06] we feed them companies which should
[43:08] never exist because they have no product
[43:10] that anybody will buy product market fit
[43:13] that means when I develop something and
[43:16] there is no solution for a problem
[43:18] there's a solution looking for problems
[43:21] then these companies should not be in a
[43:25] scaling mode they scale we don't get
[43:27] money so we need to be much much more
[43:29] strict to kill companies and create
[43:32] serial entrepreneurs this was great you
[43:35] will not bring it to the market you have
[43:37] no product nobody's going to buy stop
[43:40] and restart. Don't stay for 10 years.
[43:43] And this is what the Europeans are doing
[43:45] completely wrong. We need to be strict.
[43:48] Kill companies. Don't feed them. If
[43:50] there is no product, no business, stop,
[43:53] don't waste our brilliant minds in scale
[43:56] up zombies. The wheel is spinning, but
[43:58] the hamster is dead. But still, they get
[44:01] funding from the next round and the next
[44:03] project.
[44:04] >> I agree. I I fully agree with that.
[44:08] >> Which is which is why
[44:10] We have in parallel to the technology
[44:13] because previously we only supported
[44:14] technology. Now we have business
[44:16] developers checking at the early phase
[44:18] and we decide in Photon hub whether
[44:20] we're going to support them or not and
[44:22] whether we're going to bring them to the
[44:23] VCs or not. That's exactly what you're
[44:26] saying.
[44:26] >> Yeah. But it is the mindset from the
[44:28] beginning. What we don't have we don't
[44:30] have serial entrepreneurs in the US. You
[44:33] only get money from real investors. If
[44:36] the investor knows that he will get the
[44:38] money back after three to five years
[44:40] with a multiple of three to five. So uh
[44:43] what they do is they put serial
[44:45] entrepreneurs in the in the startup
[44:47] company because they take care that the
[44:50] money gets out again. We don't have them
[44:52] in Europe because they all got stuck in
[44:54] in scale not scaling forever. So we
[44:58] should we should really dare to kill
[45:00] them. Stop finish no product. Do
[45:04] something different. another category
[45:06] topic but Philip
[45:09] >> here you go Philip B from
[45:10] >> hi Philip
[45:11] >> um just to say that yeah I totally
[45:13] understand that we have a lot of
[45:14] innovation in Europe Europe has been
[45:16] spending a lot of money on EIC
[45:18] accelerator and as you said the missing
[45:20] point here is industrialization today
[45:23] okay but the weakness of Europe is you
[45:25] go industrialization you want to make a
[45:27] real company you have to look about 50
[45:29] to 100 million minimum to make your
[45:31] industrialization and then we have a few
[45:33] weakness here first our VC in Europe are
[45:36] not willing to follow. Number one,
[45:38] correct? I'm I'm busy know and I know I
[45:40] have a lot of American VC who are
[45:42] following me but the European guy said
[45:43] okay it's a too much ticket for us we
[45:45] are not interested. Meanwhile you know
[45:47] that Europe every year generate one
[45:49] 1,300 billion euro okay here in Europe
[45:52] compared to 700 billion of private
[45:55] money. That means that normally there is
[45:56] money in Europe to support this. And
[45:58] last but not least, you know, Europe has
[46:00] been putting this IPCI in in place also,
[46:03] you know, to help SMA to make
[46:05] industalization, but it's very difficult
[46:08] for SMA to be part of this IPCI because
[46:11] it had been pushed by the national
[46:13] countries first to the European level.
[46:15] And last but not least, we are Europe,
[46:17] but the 27 countries are not matchmaking
[46:20] the day when they launched this IPCI.
[46:22] That means you cannot work as an SMA to
[46:25] get an IPCI and this is just going to
[46:27] the big companies and it's really an
[46:29] issue to be solved for the SMA. We want
[46:33] really to bring back in
[46:34] industrialization. And last but not
[46:36] least, we need some protection also
[46:38] because as you know it's nice to have
[46:40] innovations. It's nice to bring back
[46:42] production line in Europe. It's nice to
[46:44] invest in Europe at the end we have not
[46:47] some level of protection for all the
[46:48] investment we have done then is USD.
[46:51] I I fully agree and we are fully aware
[46:54] of these issues which we're trying now
[46:56] to discuss with the commission of
[46:58] course. Um and then also with the
[47:02] national uh governments um it's it's a
[47:06] difficult situation and I think that um
[47:10] the European Commission is not strong
[47:13] enough is is way too weak to push that
[47:16] forward. they should take decisions that
[47:19] are much more straightforward, much
[47:21] harder in that direction or we're going
[47:23] to lose a lot. Okay. Um but it seems
[47:27] that in some cases they're they're not
[47:29] aware of that. Last time I talked to
[47:30] them they said why don't we have
[47:32] investments of 150 and 200 million euros
[47:36] that's how you can create that is
[47:38] exactly what people are saying here and
[47:39] correct and difficult thing difficult
[47:43] process with the commission. I don't
[47:44] know whether you've been talking to
[47:46] these people um in the first place you
[47:49] have to know where to go and then you go
[47:51] to the lower level and then the higher
[47:52] level and the higher level and and
[47:55] nothing much comes out of it. Okay. So
[47:57] that's a that's a difficulty
[47:59] >> but many people in the room have been
[48:00] doing it right and a different way which
[48:03] is to go through the member states make
[48:05] sure what you do fits in the priority of
[48:08] the country and go from there to the
[48:09] European Commission because the European
[48:11] Commission as you said has little power
[48:13] is 27 countries with 20 different
[48:15] priorities and with competition internal
[48:19] competition between them and that's
[48:20] something that you have done really well
[48:23] still has done amazingly well
[48:25] congratulations what you are setting up
[48:26] in Spain. What a way of starting the
[48:29] event, Hugo. I I I have good bones. This
[48:32] is This is a boiling room with
[48:33] questions, with suggestions, with room
[48:34] for a collaboration. Thank you very much
[48:37] for kicking off this pleasure.
[48:43] This is where the next phase starts.