# EPIC Online Technology Meeting on Polymer Optics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4r_qd1lRX0

[00:00] Good morning, good afternoon, good
[00:01] evening everyone. We are all over the
[00:03] world today. I am so happy to have
[00:05] speakers from the US. We have speakers
[00:07] from China. We have market leaders like
[00:09] Hat. This is going to be a fantastic
[00:12] evening, afternoon, and morning. It's 3
[00:14] p.m. We are exactly on time once again.
[00:16] So, Sana, are you ready?
[00:18] Yes. Ready?
[00:20] Let's go.
[00:21] Let's do it.
[00:22] We talk about polymer optics. The
[00:25] advantages of a special plastics
[00:28] compared to glass are well known in
[00:30] optics. Components are much lighter,
[00:33] lower cost, and multiple optical and
[00:35] mechanical features can be combined into
[00:38] a single part. But as polymer optics get
[00:41] more complex, critical production
[00:43] knowledge is shifting towards materials.
[00:46] Especially in automotive and medical
[00:49] parts need to be tailor made to exactly
[00:51] fit the application. You can create high
[00:54] volume cost effective products that are
[00:57] usually impossible to copy. We'll be
[00:59] discussing technology business
[01:01] opportunities on Monday, July 6 at 3:00
[01:04] p.m. Central European time at the Epico
[01:07] line technology meeting on Polymer
[01:09] Optics. Let's explore real world
[01:12] opportunities.
[01:14] So, let's explore real world
[01:16] opportunities together. And there is no
[01:19] better way of doing that than the epic
[01:20] style. Just remember this is not a
[01:22] webinar but we are live in YouTube. We
[01:25] are here to find business opportunities.
[01:27] I think half of you know half of you
[01:30] there is 50% of the room that you don't
[01:32] know and during this two and a half
[01:33] hours we are going to solve this and
[01:35] after this I'm going to make
[01:36] introductions for everyone and you are
[01:38] going to do business the epic style.
[01:40] This is going to be the 34 epic online
[01:43] technology meeting. Only five to go.
[01:45] Santa we are reaching almost the end. We
[01:47] have energies. Definitely we have
[01:49] energies to go all the way till the end.
[01:52] The last four meetings are going to be
[01:54] on Wednesday with a specialty optical
[01:56] fiber companies like Valo or or
[02:00] Seemens are going to be there. Then we
[02:01] have a meeting on Friday on precision
[02:04] multicultural agriculture. We just sign
[02:05] an agreement with the AIP the
[02:08] international assoc Association of
[02:10] Cultures to find the end users for this
[02:13] meeting. We have a meeting on microscopy
[02:15] next week on Monday and we finish we
[02:16] finish on Wednesday and we all go on
[02:18] holidays. We finish with ADAS and
[02:20] autonomous driving. I would like to say
[02:23] that when we started this the covid-19
[02:25] was the only topic of discussion and we
[02:27] said okay let's make something crazy and
[02:29] we decided to organize 40 meetings 40
[02:32] meetings in two and a half months and
[02:34] the answer the response of the industry
[02:37] have been so overwhelming that every day
[02:39] I go so happy to sleep knowing that now
[02:41] we almost have 600 almost 600 companies
[02:46] supporting epic many of you has asked
[02:48] what we can do to support the
[02:50] association the best thing that you can
[02:51] do is to send us the application form
[02:54] because with your support we continue
[02:56] doing this amazing things. I would like
[02:58] to also thank the epic staff. Uh this is
[03:02] a a strong strong team that is working
[03:05] every day from Monday to Sunday from
[03:07] early morning to late evening finding
[03:09] ways of connecting the companies and
[03:11] just to remember to remind you that at
[03:13] Epic we do a few things. We organize
[03:16] events but not because we are an event
[03:18] organizer but because we want to find
[03:20] suppliers, customer and partners to
[03:22] every company is a member of Epic.
[03:23] Actually half of our staff has PhDs and
[03:26] they want to understand the technology
[03:27] of every member. We also find ways of
[03:29] connecting companies and the members of
[03:31] Epic in the room today know very well
[03:33] that we also find a way of raising
[03:35] capital but we never get a percentage of
[03:37] that. We just connect the investors with
[03:39] the companies. We had the biggest
[03:41] website to find a job in photonix
[03:42] jobs.com
[03:44] and we have a lot of market reports
[03:46] 17,000 market reports that we have
[03:48] bought from Teatis from Joe from Statis
[03:51] Limited from Liteco. The whole idea is
[03:54] to give you these market reports for
[03:56] free. So you have now everybody who is a
[03:58] member have access to a long long list
[03:59] of market reports. That's all I have to
[04:01] say about Epic because today I want to
[04:02] talk about my one of my passions. I want
[04:04] to talk about plastic. I want to talk
[04:06] about polymer optics. And first of all,
[04:08] I would like to thank the support and
[04:11] the sponsorship of Odukat. This meeting
[04:13] would have not been possible without the
[04:14] support of Obdukat all the way from
[04:17] south of Sweden. I went to visit them. I
[04:19] was amazed by their tools and equipment
[04:21] support manufacturing for nano
[04:23] implegraphy and other other processes
[04:26] for patterning structures. Autoat is a
[04:28] great company. I'm really happy to have
[04:30] your equipment and tools sponsoring the
[04:32] event today. almost as happy I am as
[04:35] having Sana as the co-chair today. Sana,
[04:38] what's in the menu in an event of
[04:40] polymer optics? This is very interesting
[04:43] uh meeting particularly interesting with
[04:45] the list of the people that are present
[04:47] here that know each other actually and
[04:48] we have people who have the time now
[04:50] 6:00 a.m. and the others have at 6 10
[04:53] p.m. in the afternoon from Japan to the
[04:54] US. Really amazing meeting. Please uh I
[04:57] don't like to see the list of speakers
[04:59] like this. Can we go to the to this kind
[05:01] of presentation of the speakers? You see
[05:04] here we look at the polymer optic
[05:06] manufacturers and we have the uh some of
[05:08] the most important companies in the
[05:10] field CDUS micro optics EV EVG group and
[05:14] we have uh also of course the
[05:16] integrators on one side uh like uh Icon
[05:20] Photonix and some of the pilot line
[05:22] European pilot line and we have the end
[05:23] users later we have joining uh us from
[05:26] Volvo cars uh Huawei and wave optics and
[05:30] we look at the most important
[05:32] ingredients for for polymer optics the
[05:36] um the master side the uh printing side
[05:40] and the material side. So we have the um
[05:44] companies like DNP and we have DLOU for
[05:47] and Sabi for the uh material side. We
[05:50] look at the whole supply uh chain the
[05:52] the cing the um the R&D also the um the
[05:57] the
[05:59] methology side and we even have the
[06:01] market intelligent uh side to look at
[06:03] and we have company that make them all
[06:05] uh of course the vertically integrated
[06:07] optical instrument we have yen optic
[06:09] today also in the room so this is how I
[06:11] would like to present we're going to be
[06:13] looking at all of them um Jose why some
[06:16] of epic members are missing from this
[06:18] very good point many of You keep asking
[06:21] my logo was not in your supply chain for
[06:23] polymer optics. This slide only
[06:26] represents the companies who have
[06:27] registered for this meeting. Sana and I
[06:29] never never forget any of our 585
[06:34] members of Epic. And as you can see, we
[06:36] had the day Nepon printing logo almost
[06:39] everywhere in the slide because they are
[06:41] our onestop shop for polymer optics.
[06:45] Thank you so much for being a member of
[06:46] Epic DMP. I would like also to say that
[06:49] we are broadcasting this meeting in
[06:51] YouTube. So now I would like to say
[06:53] hello to the YouTubers. Hello. If you
[06:55] want to contact any of the participants
[06:58] today, speakers, nonspeakers, any of the
[07:00] participants today, all you have to do
[07:02] is send me an email.
[07:04] And I will make an introduction because
[07:06] our job is to make sure you do business.
[07:08] This is of course also valid for the
[07:10] people in the Zoom room. If you want to
[07:12] get in touch with each other, of course,
[07:13] you can use a private chat in the Zoom
[07:15] tool, but of I also happy to make an
[07:17] introduction after the meeting so you
[07:18] can pursue a potential collaboration.
[07:22] When it comes to Sana, when it comes to
[07:24] silicon, I go to Silicon Valley. When it
[07:26] comes to optical instruments, I go to
[07:28] Jenna. When it comes to automotive, I go
[07:30] to Munich. When it comes to polymer
[07:32] optics, I go to the Silicon Valley of
[07:35] polymer optics in Europe. And that's in
[07:37] Aken. That's in Aken. And that's one of
[07:40] my favorite cities in Europe. Aken, I am
[07:42] so happy to have Cornelia representing
[07:44] not only Franhoffer IP, but the whole
[07:47] area of manufacturing polymer optics.
[07:50] Cornelia, thank you so much for joining
[07:52] today. It means a lot for us that you
[07:54] are our opening speaker and mostly to
[07:56] tell us the epic question. What can the
[07:58] rest of us do for you and what can your
[08:00] beautiful ecosystem in your beautiful
[08:02] Aken city do for us? The floor and the
[08:05] attention of everyone goes to Aken, goes
[08:07] to Cornelia, goes to Franhoffer IP. The
[08:10] floor is yours.
[08:11] Thank you. Say, so thank you for the
[08:14] kind introduction. Um, first of all, I
[08:17] um I actually jumped in in this meeting
[08:20] quite quickly and um for the ones who
[08:23] perhaps know Toby to be Müller from IP
[08:26] um I'm the the one after him. So I'm the
[08:30] next Toby Müller. So the next Miller is
[08:34] not to Müller but Cornelia
[08:36] and um I'm the head of business unit in
[08:39] Fr.
[08:41] and um I will go to to um
[08:46] Fantastic. While you put the slides up
[08:48] first of all I would like to say you
[08:49] have very big shoes to fill in the foras
[08:53] Müller but I never going to call you the
[08:55] new Tobias. I'm going to call Tobias the
[08:57] old Cornelia. I think that's much much
[08:59] better. So, Octoia's Müller is on
[09:01] holiday. So, so is Kristoff. Cornelia,
[09:03] thank you very much for stepping up. All
[09:05] you have to do is at the bottom of the
[09:07] Zoom window, go to share screen, the
[09:09] green arrow up.
[09:10] There I am. But
[09:12] and the whole supply chain is here
[09:13] waiting for you. We had the materials
[09:15] from Sabi. We had the codings from Sena.
[09:17] We have Inkro with a fantastic coding
[09:19] solution for filters. Let's help you go
[09:22] to presentation mode.
[09:24] Presentation.
[09:25] Yes.
[09:26] Can you
[09:28] Yeah, we can see your screen. You go to
[09:30] slide mode.
[09:32] Um, okay. I think it's on the on the
[09:34] wrong
[09:35] It's good. It's good. On the Yeah, you
[09:37] may be sharing the wrong screen. All you
[09:38] The best thing to do is to unplug the
[09:40] secondary screen. That works always.
[09:44] Okay, let's do this.
[09:46] Is the manual solution?
[09:49] Okay. So,
[09:51] now we're going. Thank you very much.
[09:53] The floor is yours. Okay.
[09:58] We have you muted by accident, please.
[10:00] Okay,
[10:00] now I'm back again. Okay, so um yes, uh
[10:07] also from my side, hello from Aan. Um I
[10:09] think it's a beautiful day and I'm very
[10:11] happy to be joining you. Um so today I'm
[10:15] going to talk about polymer optics. um
[10:17] what we do in Franhoer Institute for
[10:20] production technology in AAN um I think
[10:23] um so first of all a couple of words to
[10:27] frown hoof um we're founded in the 40s
[10:30] and there are more than 70 institutes
[10:33] all over Germany with more than 26,000
[10:36] employees um at the scientist we also
[10:40] have a lot of students so we keep on
[10:43] running we're really young and motivated
[10:45] community and for our um headquarters in
[10:50] in Aren um we're
[10:53] uh about 460 even now um employees and
[10:57] as I said before a lot of students so
[10:59] half of them are permanently there so I
[11:02] guess um we're known in Epic especially
[11:06] for glass optics
[11:08] um precision glass molding for example
[11:12] is one of our um let's say let's um
[11:16] qualities or competencies where we can
[11:21] manufacture highly precise
[11:24] glass optics with microructures, free
[11:28] forms
[11:29] um wafer level molding is what we what
[11:32] we're heading to do. Um and the the
[11:35] great advantage of this um production
[11:38] type where I'm actually like coming from
[11:42] is um
[11:44] the more complex it gets the the more
[11:47] worth it to to go with this. So as I
[11:52] already said um we have free form optic
[11:55] um microructures for example for
[11:57] defractive optics but also for for
[12:00] infrared optics like um microructuring
[12:04] the surface of optics to enable a lower
[12:11] uh degree of reflection is what we're
[12:14] currently working on. um a spherical
[12:17] optics.
[12:18] There are um a lot of
[12:23] let's say different markets that we
[12:26] could go on with this and that we're
[12:28] addressing and trying to um re realize
[12:34] new functions by this. But as I say, as
[12:39] you already said, we're not here to talk
[12:41] about glass, but we're here to talk
[12:42] about plastics. So fine optics is
[12:45] actually what we also do in at in aan
[12:49] and um we have the whole process uh
[12:53] chain. So based on the let's let's start
[12:57] with the the mold making. So the tool
[13:00] making we have the ultra precision um
[13:04] uh diamond turning and grinding machines
[13:08] to
[13:09] manufacture
[13:11] um the molds for the for the injection
[13:14] compression molding. And um here we can
[13:17] see a couple of examples of what we the
[13:21] last time or in in the last uh periods
[13:24] actually manufactured. And what I really
[13:28] want to talk about or what I really want
[13:29] to figure or highlight at this point is
[13:33] our micro structuring.
[13:35] So not only for glass but also for the
[13:37] polymers uh we're able to manufacture
[13:42] the molding tools and manufacture or
[13:48] replicative rep replicate um the optics
[13:52] in glass but also in polymers. And this
[13:56] is what example
[13:58] see in the the middle picture. Um we do
[14:02] light guides
[14:04] um
[14:06] with uh we're also doing for example um
[14:10] micro structures like like frenel lenses
[14:12] at the moment. So
[14:16] let's say micro structuring is I think
[14:18] one of the top themes that are coming up
[14:20] and we're in both in glass but also in
[14:23] polymer is very keen um to to go deeper
[14:27] in these topics and uh to develop more
[14:32] of um these kind of of functionalities.
[14:37] Something that is also special I think
[14:39] in AAN is that the whole process chain
[14:41] that I exampled out already is we can we
[14:46] what can we do for you is we can do
[14:49] glass optics polymer optics uh we're
[14:53] assembling the optics to an uh to a
[14:56] system and also we do evaluations
[15:00] um based on this there are what is
[15:05] special for for front of IP is there are
[15:08] a lot of spin-offs, a lot of good ideas
[15:11] um that turned out to
[15:14] to make their their own way and these
[15:17] are their examples based on the topic of
[15:20] optics. So we have engineeric who are
[15:24] working with the with the glass optic
[15:26] replication. um Inolite as well, Sonics
[15:29] who do the the molds,
[15:32] who is working with the with the
[15:34] mounting and so I think that is the
[15:38] community that we have here in Aken is
[15:40] is very special. So we're going to the
[15:44] to the deep uh need of of what is what
[15:48] is uh necessary for the uh for the
[15:53] industry as well as the the science and
[15:56] therefore I think it's I think it's
[15:58] already the last slide and I'll hope
[16:00] still on time.
[16:03] Perfect. Um so the next year we're
[16:07] starting AROP which is uh the Aan center
[16:10] of optics production and with this we're
[16:13] focusing on on five themes or in five
[16:16] topics which are glass and polymer
[16:19] optics are two of them. Then um we're
[16:22] going to uh
[16:27] okay um then we're going to the
[16:29] metrology to to really go deep in those
[16:32] special meetings. We're assembling and
[16:35] we are the digital digitalization who is
[16:38] networking all of these. So
[16:42] the aan center of optics production
[16:43] should be is going to be a network from
[16:46] the fr from the scientists of frownho
[16:48] for IP and the community the optics
[16:52] community who will participate as
[16:55] partners and tell us about their needs
[16:59] and their their interest in which um
[17:02] topics we should we should um direct to.
[17:06] So yes,
[17:09] thank you very much Cornelia. Fantastic
[17:12] and right on time. I like that you have
[17:13] to come more often to the epic meetings.
[17:15] I I really really love this this change
[17:17] in in the staff of IP. Hey to good to
[17:20] see you. I know you're on holidays. H
[17:22] this is an epic meeting. So it is all
[17:24] about collaboration. So the most
[17:27] important thing here is to identify
[17:28] roots to collaborate. I always present a
[17:32] capital of polymer optics. you organize
[17:34] every year the the polymer days that
[17:36] brings everybody together. I was going
[17:38] to be there but obviously I heard there
[17:39] is a virus going around so we couldn't
[17:41] do it but today we have a good
[17:43] representation of the supply chain and
[17:45] you presented companies like Inolai like
[17:47] in generic like inentech like fiotech
[17:49] like sonx like polyscale I don't want to
[17:51] forget anyone can you tell us a couple
[17:54] of challenges in the supply chain that
[17:57] these companies perhaps can add value to
[18:00] your car ecosystem
[18:03] I have you muted I want to hear you yes
[18:06] Yeah, now I think of that. Yes. Um, so I
[18:10] think one of the big challenges is
[18:11] actually the digitalization
[18:14] which we're which we're addressing but
[18:16] we still like to work together to see
[18:18] what what need is in the industry. what
[18:22] we're
[18:23] um I think would like for example in
[18:26] glass optics we're still working on
[18:30] um on manufacturing molds with micro
[18:33] structures but with materials that are
[18:36] quite hard to manufacture or to um to
[18:39] work on. So these are for example
[18:43] points.
[18:44] So for me it is clear that when I see
[18:45] your ecosystem is very strong very
[18:49] strong in molds because you have sonx
[18:51] which the way they are fantastic. Hi Ben
[18:53] Haming if he's hearing us. You have
[18:55] companies like polycale in the in the
[18:57] roto manufacturing but when it comes to
[18:59] the material side of course there there
[19:02] is perhaps some room for collaboration.
[19:04] Companies like like Savic like Delo
[19:06] could perhaps add value to you.
[19:09] Yes most definitely.
[19:11] So,
[19:13] okay. So, bearing is smiling from Savic.
[19:16] I think there's obviously a room for
[19:17] cooperation there. I want to ask
[19:19] something about the market because now
[19:20] you're going to be traveling around the
[19:22] world and I'm going to see you every two
[19:23] weeks like I used to see obvious what
[19:25] are in your opinion the the the biggest
[19:27] application fields the biggest markets
[19:29] in which you're going to put optics from
[19:31] everywhere including from hat.
[19:35] So the biggest markets I think there is
[19:36] actually like to say there's the biggest
[19:38] market is I'd not go there but I say
[19:42] that the diversity is is quite the
[19:44] strength of it. So um
[19:47] because with the with a mixture of
[19:49] polymers and glass optics for for frano
[19:51] 5t we can we can pretty much directly to
[19:55] to all the the important base based on
[19:58] for example um uh laser optics with the
[20:02] glass and then we go to up down to to
[20:04] automotive um constructions with with
[20:07] polymers. So I think this is actually
[20:09] the strength that there
[20:10] the automotive boso is going to come in
[20:12] one hour. They had to they had to be
[20:14] here but we had a problem but they're
[20:15] going to come in an hour to tell us
[20:16] exactly what they need. But in the
[20:18] meantime I'm going to go to what I think
[20:20] is going to be the big big market.
[20:22] I have a company called Wave Optics
[20:24] here. Areni, how are you doing?
[20:26] Hi folks. I'm good. Thank you.
[20:28] Thank you very much for joining. We had
[20:29] a meeting on litography last Friday and
[20:31] now here we are talking about polymer
[20:33] optics and I remember last Friday you
[20:35] shared a couple of challenges with the
[20:37] community. I want to start the meeting
[20:39] with that. Can you give us a couple of
[20:40] challenges on the polymer?
[20:43] I mean in terms of polymers we we're
[20:46] already using them in in nonimprinting
[20:48] obviously and uh I would say that the
[20:51] optical quality of those polymers used
[20:53] in non-imprinting is a big topic for us
[20:56] because we need them to be uh very
[20:59] homogeneous both in terms of optical
[21:01] properties like refractive index
[21:03] absorption also thickness. So that's the
[21:06] challenge we're having right now. uh but
[21:09] in general I guess in the whole AR
[21:11] community potentially there is a desire
[21:13] also to do plastic wave guides made out
[21:16] of plastics but for this we need to go
[21:19] into really high reflective indices and
[21:21] that's that's another challenge for the
[21:22] plastic optics let's say
[21:24] what what is high
[21:26] h I mean right now our desire is above
[21:29] 2.0 zero for for the devices which we're
[21:32] doing right now but they're based on
[21:34] glass plus non imprint raisins
[21:36] you know the the fun thing of the of the
[21:38] online meetings is that they can do
[21:40] magic I have your slide from last Friday
[21:42] in would you tell us the challenges
[21:44] could you revisit that slide could you
[21:46] tell us the challenges that you have for
[21:47] this community
[21:49] yeah yeah absolutely so basically what
[21:51] you see at the top was written
[21:53] specifically for the nano imprint
[21:54] raisins uh and you can see that we
[21:57] desire them to be really high refction
[21:59] ive index above 2.0
[22:02] uh very homogeneous confirmed optical
[22:04] quality of those raisins. Uh but I mean
[22:08] I guess if we're talking more
[22:09] specifically also about plastic
[22:11] waveguides. We we do want to do curved
[22:13] plastic lenses and we probably would be
[22:16] willing to start at some lower specs
[22:18] maybe starting from 1.7 refractive index
[22:21] which is I guess is already a challenge
[22:23] for plastics.
[22:25] 1.7 refractive index a challenge. Who
[22:27] can provide 1.7 refractive index
[22:29] polymers?
[22:31] Yes. I'm going to talk to Delo. Let's do
[22:33] business. Patrick,
[22:36] I go to Patrick and then I go to burn.
[22:38] So I go to Delo and I go to Savici and I
[22:40] don't I get no commission Christian you
[22:42] see work at no commission for me.
[22:44] Patrick, what can you do?
[22:45] Just received this.
[22:48] Pretty sure as you know that and it was
[22:51] a huge success story last year, this
[22:53] year on the Photonix West and it's on
[22:55] the on the show now here on the on the
[22:58] flyer. So it shows that polymer optics
[23:00] is really something that is is going
[23:02] into big business now. Uh definitely we
[23:06] can supply 1.7. I guess Yuka will also
[23:08] tell you that he can supply more in in
[23:11] his talk. Um it always comes to the
[23:13] question of the full package. So you
[23:15] need the process, you need the
[23:16] stability, you need the reliability, you
[23:18] need other factors like transmission uh
[23:22] uh dispersion. So how can how well can
[23:25] you match that and how well can you
[23:27] match the polymer to the supporting
[23:29] glass that you have below that? That's
[23:30] that's all questions you have to to
[23:32] answer and we have a team that can work
[23:34] on that and can supply solutions to
[23:36] that. Patrick sorry let me just clarify
[23:39] in terms of nano imprinting I guess we
[23:41] indeed discussed uh on Friday as well
[23:44] but what I'm actually meant are some
[23:46] plastics which are suitable for
[23:48] injection molding not not nano
[23:50] imprinting which is a bit different
[23:51] technology
[23:56] do you want to add something to this
[23:58] absolutely yeah yes so we cannot provide
[24:01] the 1.7
[24:04] ra but 1.65 65 in the near IR and we are
[24:09] providing thermoplastic solutions. So
[24:12] injection molding, injection compression
[24:14] molding or even hot embossing is is
[24:18] possible and we are in contact with IP
[24:23] um with CDA with NIT on that one and we
[24:28] have a lot of findings already. So, it's
[24:30] possible to use our materials
[24:34] and I will introduce the Xtem um a
[24:38] reflowable thermoplastic resin later on
[24:41] today.
[24:42] Yes, you will. And I'm so looking
[24:43] forward to that and I'm going to go to
[24:44] Finland. Yuka, you have something to add
[24:46] to this as well.
[24:48] Well, we we don't have those plastics,
[24:50] but we have the uh nano imprinting
[24:52] resins like a coatings. So uh as Patrick
[24:57] mentioned from Bello's side we indeed
[24:59] have uh something more than uh 1.7 1.8
[25:02] and over 1.9 and I agree that uh the
[25:06] higher you go the more tough it gets
[25:09] with uh many ways.
[25:11] Inron is a great company so happy to
[25:13] have you here. Anybody else would like
[25:14] to say would like to help our friend
[25:17] Aronyy from Wave Optics with a polymer
[25:19] that can be used for injection molding
[25:21] on one more than 1.7 refractive index.
[25:24] I think we already find you three
[25:26] potential partners, but we continue.
[25:27] This is going to be a great meeting. It
[25:28] started great. Thank you very much,
[25:30] Cornelia. And we go now. We go to
[25:32] Munich. We go to Munich to talk to Delo.
[25:34] We went to Munich to talk to Delo on how
[25:36] we can help the whole community going to
[25:38] help Delo being even greater in the
[25:40] field of adives, in the field of
[25:41] polymer, and in the field of assembly
[25:44] using your fantastic adesives. The floor
[25:46] and the attention of everyone goes to
[25:48] Munich, goes to Patrick. The floor is
[25:50] yours.
[25:52] Thank you, Jose. Thank you again for
[25:53] this putting up this great meeting
[25:55] today. Um and maybe I can convince you
[25:58] that we might have a solution for you
[26:00] not only for nano imprint but also for
[26:01] larger lenses.
[26:03] So DO is a German company based close to
[26:07] Munich uh with around 800 people here
[26:10] and offices and engineers all over the
[26:14] world to support you wherever you are.
[26:16] So if you have your R&D in the US or in
[26:19] Asia and production on the other side of
[26:21] the globe, we have people there that can
[26:23] help you set up the process, do the
[26:25] design, give you feedback on on our uh
[26:28] solutions.
[26:31] So what we're talking about is not
[26:32] really injection molding, but uh
[26:36] something in between. So a kind of stamp
[26:38] process where you apply your material, a
[26:41] polymer to a substrate, then do an
[26:45] imprint with a working stamp, a UV cure
[26:48] or a heat cure, demold, and you do
[26:52] everything on a wafer level, do a dicing
[26:55] and get individual optics out of that.
[26:57] This could be nano up to more or less
[27:00] macro lenses.
[27:04] Um and that's the very interesting part
[27:05] of this field that you actually stretch
[27:08] many orders of magnitude in layers
[27:10] thickness as well as in imprinted area.
[27:13] So going from really small structures,
[27:16] defractive optical elements for uh face
[27:19] recognition applications up to like
[27:23] really large optics for automotive
[27:25] headlamps. Everything in between could
[27:28] be manufactured by this kind of
[27:29] technology.
[27:32] And we have solutions for that. We have
[27:34] various products in the market out there
[27:36] for macro optics, for micro optics, for
[27:38] nanoo optics. And we can also achieve a
[27:42] huge range or offer huge range of
[27:44] refractive indexes for that. Um we tune
[27:47] the mechanical the thermal mechanical
[27:49] parameters reflow stability, thermal
[27:52] stability to the needs of the the
[27:55] application. And one of the applications
[27:59] or one of the fields that is getting
[28:01] more and more interesting for that is
[28:02] automotive
[28:04] um optics for headlamps for leader
[28:06] sensors inc cabin sensing augmented
[28:09] reality applications in there cameras
[28:12] everything you can think of where you
[28:14] need an optic you could actually use one
[28:15] of our products to make the optic
[28:19] and we can test that we can do all the
[28:21] testing for LAR laser induced damage
[28:24] threshold testing long-term automotive
[28:26] reliability testing and all materials
[28:28] can survive that.
[28:32] But let's talk about more than just
[28:34] transparent simple optics. What most
[28:37] people would think of, what about using
[28:39] this technology to manufacture full
[28:42] sensor assemblies? So you take your PCB
[28:45] with your sensor die on top of it and
[28:47] then everything else you could actually
[28:49] make out of such polymers, lighter heat
[28:51] curable polymers. So you make black
[28:53] walls, you make encapsulations, you make
[28:55] diffusers. Let's take one example
[28:57] because time only permits one. Uh let's
[29:00] look at a diffuser. So use a liquid
[29:04] material to make a solid diffuser in any
[29:08] kind of shape and thickness. We could
[29:11] offer materials for that which have a
[29:13] defined diffusive pattern in a defined
[29:17] layer thickness which is also
[29:19] temperature stable. So you see here on
[29:21] the left the transmission after three
[29:22] times reflow it's perfectly stable and
[29:24] it will maintain its diffusive
[29:27] properties over uh lifetime and over
[29:31] refflow. So this would be very new
[29:34] options you have in manufacturing full
[29:36] packages for your sensors optics and all
[29:40] the surroundings of of the sensors. So
[29:43] with that, Tito would like to achieve
[29:46] goals together with you. Be innovative,
[29:49] have new ideas and use materials to
[29:53] actually enable yeah innovation.
[30:00] Thank you.
[30:02] Thank you so much for this very
[30:04] inspiring talk. And u let me ask you now
[30:07] the epic question, right? uh what can
[30:10] you do for the people that are present
[30:12] here and the others follow us following
[30:14] us on YouTube and what can they do for
[30:15] you? What challenges can you offer them?
[30:19] I mean we have quite a a vast uh
[30:22] portfolio of optical materials going
[30:24] from infrared transparent uh black
[30:27] materials with in infrared transparency
[30:30] scattering profiles uh transparent large
[30:33] optics. So challenge us. Give us the
[30:36] smallest package. You want to achieve
[30:38] the smallest uh layer thicknesses of
[30:40] black walls with mechanical stability
[30:43] and we would be glad to discuss that
[30:45] with you.
[30:48] And what kind of collaborations can you
[30:50] be looking for?
[30:52] In machine suppliers is always a a huge
[30:54] topic. Um and processability of these
[30:58] materials of these uh manufacturability
[31:00] of these sensors or optics is always a
[31:03] big topic. The combination of both
[31:05] getting the material into the process
[31:07] getting a full optic or a full package
[31:09] out of out of the process with a high
[31:11] yield. That's always big topics. Total
[31:14] cost of ownership is a huge topic.
[31:17] I see. I have a question for you from
[31:19] Wave Optics. You can unmute and ask
[31:22] directly. Go ahead,
[31:24] Patrick. Just a technical question as a
[31:26] matter of curiosity. So in most cases
[31:28] going into high refractive index means
[31:31] loading the polymer with nanop
[31:33] particles. I'm just wondering if there
[31:36] are any other ways to increase the
[31:38] refractive index rather than using nanop
[31:40] particles.
[31:42] Um there are but currently we don't have
[31:45] a solution that fulfills our reliability
[31:48] uh constraints or expectations.
[31:52] And maybe just also if I can ask another
[31:55] technical question. So when we load the
[31:58] polymer with nanop particles, our usual
[32:00] concern is the homogenity of the final
[32:03] material. So in terms of the dela
[32:05] materials for instance, what kind of
[32:08] homogenity are you achieving and do you
[32:10] have a reliable ways to measure
[32:13] variations of refractive index across uh
[32:15] the final material?
[32:18] Yeah, that's a that's a very good
[32:19] question actually. um that can is is not
[32:22] only a a question of material but also a
[32:25] question of process in I mean
[32:27] interaction with surfaces can lead to
[32:30] separation of materials. Um so yes we
[32:33] have methods to measure that. Um but
[32:37] again we need the right substrates the
[32:40] the substrates of your application to
[32:42] make sure that we have all the boundary
[32:44] conditions right.
[32:45] Exactly. And as Yuka said, maybe to add
[32:47] that the higher you go in loading and in
[32:49] refractive index, the more challenging
[32:52] it gets.
[32:55] Patrick, I have another question for you
[32:56] from Laser Center in Hanover. Lars.
[33:00] Yes, thank you. Um, polymer optic is not
[33:02] my home base, so I'm here to to learn a
[33:05] little bit. Uh, but um, coming from
[33:08] Leentum, can you give a brief update? Ka
[33:10] just mentioned laser application. Can
[33:12] you give a brief status on how laser
[33:14] applications do with polymers?
[33:17] Um I mean if you're talking about uh fto
[33:20] second peta watt lasers it's nothing for
[33:22] polymer optics I would say. Um but if
[33:26] we're talking about leader applications
[33:28] vixel applications then that is
[33:32] definitely possible. It depends a lot on
[33:35] the the pulse power uh frequency.
[33:40] Uh but we have we have measurements that
[33:43] prove that these materials are stable um
[33:46] in in the relevant uh areas as I said
[33:50] not high power lasers in in the
[33:52] laboratories.
[33:55] Thank you so much. Um please Patrick let
[33:58] me introduce you to an epic friend
[34:01] Andreas from Mar and you said something
[34:03] about your challenges you would give
[34:06] andreas how are you doing?
[34:07] Oh I'm fine thank you
[34:09] can you answer to Yeah.
[34:12] Um what challenges? Well, um
[34:16] we make metrology and and my focus is on
[34:20] mrology of optical components and that's
[34:23] mostly measuring the shape and uh uh so
[34:27] we started in high precision optics with
[34:29] mostly glass and now we do a lot of work
[34:31] for free form optics which goes more and
[34:34] what we already do in plastics. Um and a
[34:37] big challenge is uh what we find rather
[34:41] good solutions is measuring like front
[34:44] and back side of an optical component
[34:46] and using references like auto shapes or
[34:51] something as references to measure like
[34:53] different optical surface in relation to
[34:57] each other and uh this is really
[35:01] important for for precision optics and
[35:04] uh I'm not So sure how important that
[35:07] actually is for
[35:10] um for polymer optics probably for the
[35:13] more precision ones where we also have
[35:15] examples um in uh in in camera optics
[35:20] where you use that I I don't think so
[35:23] much in illumination where where you
[35:26] have like these strange LED optics they
[35:28] probably don't need that too much and
[35:31] yeah the interesting part is uh
[35:35] Uh yeah to measure these more precise
[35:38] optics and and especially what you can
[35:41] do with with polymer optics what you
[35:43] can't do in glass and these strange
[35:46] shapes and see where where people are
[35:50] and what are the limitations and how how
[35:52] metroy can actually help there. There's
[35:54] a lot of going on at the moment and we
[35:57] have quite a few examples and uh um what
[36:01] we got is like limitations are often
[36:03] metrology that I do something but I have
[36:06] no way to measure that. That's that's
[36:07] what we focus on. So that if people are
[36:11] interested in that uh we could maybe um
[36:16] have a solution for you or or come to
[36:19] that in the future and uh yeah and if
[36:23] you
[36:24] um see what what's precisions are so we
[36:28] if you have like shape errors in the
[36:29] range of down to a few hundred
[36:32] nanometers or so so I think it's it's
[36:36] the field of illumination optics really
[36:39] Thank you very much, Mar. It's a great
[36:41] company in Jenna. I love visiting you
[36:43] there in the size building. You know
[36:44] what I'm waiting for. I hope you you
[36:46] manage to get this for me. Please,
[36:48] please, I want you here. I have a
[36:50] question from Epic member ACM Coatings.
[36:53] Alexander Tees, the CEO, and he's asking
[36:56] in the YouTube channel says, "A question
[36:58] for Delo Patrick. How stable are your
[37:02] materials for postprocessing steps like
[37:05] additional coatings?"
[37:08] In addition, coatings are are a very
[37:10] interesting field. We see more
[37:12] especially in the in the high precision
[37:14] area that people want to apply
[37:16] anti-reflective coatings on top of
[37:18] polymer optics. Um the temperature
[37:21] stability is not so much the issue but
[37:26] you have different CTE than in glass. Uh
[37:29] that is a the bigger topic. So you apply
[37:31] your coating uh your polymer optic cools
[37:34] down uh you have the CTE so the shape
[37:36] changes slightly you get stresses in the
[37:38] coatings. Um that is that is a topic
[37:41] where coating design lens design and
[37:45] polymer optic or polymer that is used
[37:47] need to match. Um so that is something
[37:50] where we really need to get the the
[37:52] whole supply chain together and work
[37:54] together to to solve that because it's
[37:57] not an individual aspect. Thank you very
[38:00] much Patrick. If anybody's looking for
[38:02] ultra black coatings, you have to go to
[38:03] ACM coatings or you can also go to SR.
[38:05] They also members. So I they are both
[38:07] fantastic. And I want to say hello also
[38:10] to new people for the first time ever at
[38:12] an epic event. And we have a company
[38:14] called Navitar which is a big player in
[38:17] the field of imaging lenses and Ian is
[38:20] here with us. Ian, how are you doing
[38:22] today?
[38:23] Oh yes, this is my first meeting.
[38:26] That's right. Um so I'm I I saw this
[38:30] over the weekend that this meeting was
[38:32] on and uh uh I'm particularly we're
[38:35] particularly interested in uh automotive
[38:38] uh autonomous vehicle optics like lidar
[38:40] and imaging optics and in this industry
[38:44] uh price is is critical and we're
[38:46] constantly being asked can we not make
[38:49] um lenses with some plastic elements. So
[38:53] I'm I'm interested to know what uh uh
[38:56] what advantages disadvantages what cost
[38:59] savings we can have with uh plastic
[39:01] optics what design rules we we would
[39:04] implement what what shapes of a spheres
[39:07] we can have whether we should be looking
[39:09] at uh molding uh taking a glass base
[39:13] element and molding some plastic on top
[39:15] of it um what limitations there are etc
[39:19] etc what and what materials another
[39:21] major feature is temperature range. We
[39:24] need to a thermalize these optics and
[39:27] uh so I need to know what limitations
[39:29] there are, what ranges of dn by dt there
[39:33] is on on polymer optics. We have a good
[39:35] handle we have a good handle on on
[39:37] molding glass optics. Uh so we need to
[39:39] know what the uh what the implications
[39:42] are of switching to uh having some
[39:45] molded plastics.
[39:46] I got extremely happy when you answered
[39:48] my email. I've been knocking at
[39:50] different doors in Navitar and I'm
[39:52] really happy to have you here. Many
[39:53] people were taking notes what you were
[39:56] talking so expect some follow up after
[39:58] this. People want to talk to you and I
[40:00] want to talk also to the next speaker.
[40:03] Let's move on with the agenda. Today we
[40:04] have a beautiful agenda. We're going to
[40:05] finish on time. Now we are going to
[40:08] Finland. We're going to my friend Yuka.
[40:10] We're going to Inkong. Thank you very
[40:12] much Yuka for being with us. Tell us so
[40:15] we can make Inkong even better than it
[40:17] already is. the floor and the attention
[40:18] fabric was goes to Finland.
[40:21] Okay. So, thank thank you. So, let let
[40:23] me um share share my presentation if I
[40:26] just find it from here somewhere.
[40:30] Uh let me see
[40:35] all the same thing. Let's let's let's
[40:38] try this one.
[40:39] I'm sure it's the right one. Yes.
[40:43] Yeah. So, um,
[40:46] so indeed. So, I'm Yuka Pento. I'm with
[40:49] Could you go to presentation mode? I
[40:51] think it's F11.
[40:52] Um, let me see.
[40:55] Yes.
[40:55] Okay. Now,
[40:56] yeah. So, I'm Yuka Barrento and I'm with
[41:00] Inkron in Finland as Jose already said.
[41:03] And, uh, a couple words about Inkron.
[41:07] So, Inkron is quite focused uh, resin
[41:11] manufacturer. We pretty much only focus
[41:13] on silox and polymers.
[41:16] So uh we we make our own resins inhouse.
[41:20] The we have in-house synthesis for our
[41:22] resins also. Sometimes we even make our
[41:25] own monomers
[41:27] but then we are not selling the polymer
[41:30] or resin itself. But what we do we have
[41:34] an in-house formulation and we our
[41:36] products are formulated application
[41:40] specific formulated products and uh if
[41:43] if you didn't know about the siloxen
[41:46] product those are very transparent and
[41:48] clear and thermally and optically
[41:50] stable. So u it's a good good starting
[41:53] point for optics type of the
[41:55] applications
[41:56] and uh because we have a pretty good uh
[42:00] knowhow what comes to how how to uh
[42:03] design these polymers we are able to
[42:05] make both extreme low and then high
[42:09] refractive index codings using our
[42:12] technologies.
[42:15] The market rates
[42:18] we are targeting uh currently it's sort
[42:21] of a three-fold
[42:23] uh situation. We work uh with the
[42:25] printed electronics then we work with
[42:27] the optical devices like nano imprinting
[42:30] and defractive optics and uh optical
[42:33] packaging uh type of the products. So we
[42:35] have like for optics packaging we have
[42:37] adhesives thermally conductive adisses
[42:40] for example for LED packaging and the u
[42:43] uh encapsulate materials high refractive
[42:46] index encapsulants
[42:48] and uh typical applications are LEDs
[42:51] lighting solutions and sensors and so
[42:54] forth. On printed electronic side, we
[42:58] have uh both screen and injectable
[43:01] conductive inks and delectric inks and
[43:04] supporting uh like a structural adhesive
[43:06] solutions typically for wearables or in
[43:11] mold electronics type of the
[43:13] applications.
[43:14] And then uh ma probably the main main
[43:17] topic of the day from our point of view
[43:19] is the u optical devices and nano
[43:22] imprintable codings and defractive
[43:24] optics. So we have a quite wide range of
[43:28] uh uh indices starting from a very low
[43:30] refractive index going up to very high
[43:33] refractive index and anything in
[43:35] between. And uh let's say typical
[43:38] applications we we are targeting as of
[43:41] now are AI wave guides, 3D sensors and
[43:44] generally taken and defractive optics
[43:47] type of the uh applications.
[43:51] Yes. uh because this uh time for the
[43:54] presentation is quite short so I didn't
[43:56] go into into any depth with the
[43:59] presentation but this uh list list of uh
[44:04] different refractive indices maybe gives
[44:06] you an idea what sort of a materials we
[44:08] have. So our lowest refractive index we
[44:11] can make is starting from 1.1 or
[44:14] actually in the lab we've been even
[44:16] lower with with our coding but the
[44:18] standard product is 1.1 and up like 1.25
[44:22] 1.4 and then starting from the mid-range
[44:25] 1.5 range uh those are nano imprintable
[44:29] uh resins or codings uh like nominal uh
[44:34] refractive ines are 1.7 1.8 8 and then
[44:38] 1.9 and over. Uh we don't have a 2.0
[44:43] nano imprintable yet but we are quite
[44:45] close to uh that anyway.
[44:50] And then uh before before you say have a
[44:53] chance to ask what can Inkron do for
[44:56] you. So um we are specialist uh in high
[45:00] and low refractive index codings and uh
[45:04] we are putting lots of focus on nano
[45:07] imprinting and defractive optics. So we
[45:09] have a have an annoying printing tool in
[45:12] house. So we can offer the uh support to
[45:16] optimize and customize our formulations
[45:20] for the defractive optics uh uh and also
[45:24] do the nano printing in house. And uh
[45:28] what we are looking for, we are of
[45:29] course looking partners interested in
[45:33] working with us with the new designs and
[45:36] applications, but also we are hoping
[45:38] open for the EU project proposals as
[45:42] well.
[45:43] And uh that's pretty much uh ends my
[45:47] presentation.
[45:48] We do have uh some new products coming
[45:51] out soon. So uh stay tuned.
[45:54] I I'm always tuned to what you guys are
[45:56] doing. I'm actually quite quite amazed
[45:58] first of all with the growth of Ingram.
[46:01] Second how many connections you're
[46:03] always making and how always you follow
[46:05] up with every introduction we make. So
[46:07] it is great to have you at Epic. And we
[46:10] have questions for you. The first
[46:11] question comes from New Chhatel. Yes.
[46:14] Next to the lake. They are such a
[46:15] beautiful city. And we have of course
[46:16] with us Tal. Tal. How are you doing
[46:19] today?
[46:19] I am. Thank you Jose. Thank you very
[46:21] much.
[46:21] What question do you have for Yuka?
[46:23] So hello Yuka. I tried to fetch you
[46:25] already at the photonics west but for
[46:27] for a certain reason it doesn't work. We
[46:29] work on micro optics means that we have
[46:32] usually much thicker layers than a few
[46:34] microns.
[46:35] Yeah.
[46:36] Can you imagine to use your materials
[46:38] for much thicker layers than uh than the
[46:40] defractive optic space?
[46:42] What what what sort of uh thicknesses
[46:44] are we talking about?
[46:46] We we go to 100 to 500 micron
[46:49] and which refractive index? But that's
[46:51] for the moment is maybe not so important
[46:53] as long as it is more solvent free than
[46:56] solvent containing.
[46:59] Uh with the certain formulations yes we
[47:02] can uh make also thick layers like
[47:04] couple of millimeters.
[47:06] Mhm.
[47:06] But then then the solvent free and
[47:09] viscosity and refractive index
[47:12] combination is sort of a challenging. So
[47:15] u
[47:17] we have for example we have 1.65 65
[47:20] encapsul for LEDs and those are
[47:22] typically like 1 mm thick.
[47:24] Ah, okay. Good. That is good to know.
[47:25] So, we should we should get in touch and
[47:27] and see what we can do. There's another
[47:29] question Jose if you allow.
[47:30] Of course.
[47:31] Structural integrity of the material.
[47:33] Let's put it like this. So, is softness
[47:36] is demoldability because we usually
[47:38] molding these kind of of of materials.
[47:41] So is this material easy to handle for
[47:43] molding, demolding application and and
[47:47] and hardness after baking and after
[47:49] curing? Well, as as I mentioned because
[47:51] we are making the resins ourselves, we
[47:54] so we can modify them within a fair
[47:57] fairly big range. So, so uh maybe we
[48:00] should have an offline discussion if you
[48:02] if you tell me your specs and uh I'll
[48:04] I'll take our technical uh guys with me
[48:08] into the meeting and then we can see if
[48:10] if we can reach your targets or not.
[48:12] Well, this is an excellent idea. Thank
[48:13] you very much.
[48:14] Okay.
[48:15] And thank you very much to Ralph and
[48:17] thank you everyone at SUS Micro Optics
[48:18] for the keep keep strong support that
[48:20] you're doing and actually for leading
[48:22] leading the European revolution in micro
[48:24] optics. You guys are doing a fantastic
[48:27] job. And I would like to h to now go all
[48:30] the way to the other side of the world.
[48:32] I'm gonna go to Japan. And where am I
[48:34] going to Japan? Because I really really
[48:36] want you to understand the story that
[48:38] I've been coming across in the last
[48:39] weeks. DNP is a one-stop shop. Now,
[48:43] Yasang, thank you very much for joining
[48:46] today and for being such a strong
[48:47] supporter of Epic. Today is your meeting
[48:50] because here you have everybody in the
[48:52] room can do business with you. Can you
[48:54] tell us why? I have something to show to
[48:56] share from my screen but I would like
[48:57] you to explain this slide that that I
[48:59] have seen
[49:01] from you.
[49:05] Okay. Yes.
[49:08] Yeah. So that the dynam printing is in
[49:10] Japan and uh uh we are the one of the uh
[49:15] automask supplier for leading edge
[49:18] semiconductor manufacturers. So at uh
[49:21] this time I would like to focus in on
[49:24] the mold. So we have a uh multi ebeam
[49:29] mask writing system uh from IMS in
[49:33] Austria uh which has 256k
[49:39] uh beams in the column so that we can
[49:41] make a very smooth and precise features
[49:46] uh on the substrate. So you can see the
[49:49] uh right hand side uh we can make a like
[49:53] a quotes mode which has a uh minimum
[49:56] feature size of 14 nanometer lions
[49:59] spaces and also the uh multistep 3D
[50:04] features on the close mode. Uh, of
[50:07] course we can uh replicate uh this mode
[50:10] to uh uh on uh soft mode like PDMS and
[50:16] uh we can also uh supply the final
[50:19] products of DOE but uh uh the focusing
[50:23] point is uh uh we can make a very uh
[50:28] precise and uh small features on uh
[50:31] master template kind of things. So if
[50:34] you need a kind of uh uh these features
[50:38] uh please contact us and uh uh but uh uh
[50:41] this is uh the photomask uh area. So uh
[50:46] substrate size uh is limited to uh 6 in
[50:50] square. So that's only uh the
[50:53] limitation. So that's all I have this
[50:57] time.
[50:58] Thank you very much. Now Yasan, I have
[51:00] been checking the news and I think it
[51:03] was last year when you announced a road
[51:05] map towards going to 10 nanometer
[51:07] resolution moles for nano imploggraphy.
[51:10] What is the status of this and how can
[51:12] we help you especially?
[51:15] Oh yeah. So uh uh yeah we are trying to
[51:19] uh create 10 nometer or even less but uh
[51:22] it's very depends on uh uh beam quality
[51:27] uh I mean uh current uh electron beam
[51:30] beam size is just 10 nanometer. So it's
[51:33] quite difficult to get 10 or less than
[51:35] that. So we need to get the beam uh
[51:40] writer with like a five nanometer beam
[51:43] size kind of things and also electron
[51:46] beam uh resist polymer to uh resolute
[51:52] the such kind of the small features. So
[51:54] that's our challenge. Anybody would like
[51:57] to comment, address or perhaps
[51:59] collaborate on that particular challenge
[52:02] when it comes to to quality of the beam.
[52:05] Sorry, Benjamin, did you raise your
[52:07] hand? No, he didn't. By the way, there's
[52:10] obviously some some potential
[52:11] cooperation there. But during the
[52:13] meeting, we are going to address a
[52:14] couple of these points, but what I would
[52:16] like for you to understand, for the rest
[52:18] of the room to understand is that DMP is
[52:20] really a one-stop shop. And when it
[52:22] comes to going into very high resolution
[52:24] and implegraphy, they can give the
[52:26] molds, they can also make the machines,
[52:28] they can make the prototypes. And it's a
[52:30] great great company to have in Epic.
[52:31] Arriato, thank you very much for for for
[52:34] being part of this fantastic adventure.
[52:37] And now I'm going to go to where
[52:39] polymers really like to go to harsh
[52:41] environments in low cost and volume
[52:43] production. I'm going to go to Savic.
[52:45] I'm going to go to burnt because I want
[52:47] to really understand how your material
[52:50] can help companies like Kath in Italy
[52:53] better than they already are. The floor
[52:55] and the attention of everyone goes to
[52:57] Savic goes to you
[53:01] and I think you have you may be muted.
[53:04] Yes, I have to now come to my
[53:07] presentation.
[53:09] Little bit tricky here. Uh wait, wait.
[53:12] Um
[53:16] sorry. Yeah. Um
[53:19] okay, now it should work.
[53:22] It works per No, now it doesn't work.
[53:23] Now we are seeing each other again.
[53:26] So let's go to the bottom of the screen
[53:29] to share screen. No, that was actually
[53:33] this one. Share.
[53:37] Yes.
[53:38] Yeah. Okay. And now I have
[53:40] Perfect. Yes, the FL is yours.
[53:42] That one here. I have something here on
[53:44] my
[53:44] It works perfectly now.
[53:46] Okay. Yeah. Not not on my side. Okay.
[53:49] So, sorry. I tried to be prepared a lot
[53:53] but Okay. Um we are talking today about
[53:58] yeah high volume production. If you
[54:00] think about um the sensors typically if
[54:04] it comes to IR sensors which are widely
[54:08] widely used and just if you think about
[54:10] mobile phones 1.5 billion production
[54:13] number per year uh you see these um
[54:17] infrared um proximity time offlight
[54:20] sensors also in PCs robot cleaners
[54:23] gaming toys drones security equipment
[54:26] vending machines and you will see that
[54:29] in LAR in 3D gesture control and in
[54:32] various internet of things devices. You
[54:35] can imagine um about about the volume
[54:39] and the need to be um to to use this
[54:43] material. Actually we are coming um from
[54:46] designs with wave soldering what you see
[54:48] here. So you see here the PEI a
[54:52] thermoplastic
[54:53] material as a lens material. But to go
[54:57] to all of these applications, you have
[54:59] to go to miniaturization
[55:02] and uh this means you have to go to
[55:05] surface mount technology. And just look
[55:08] at that picture. This is an IR emitting
[55:11] and receiving device um for yeah
[55:15] proximity
[55:17] um um for proximity control. It's as big
[55:21] or as small as a part of your of your
[55:24] fingertip. Now imagine if you want to go
[55:27] into these small parts surface mount
[55:30] technology is key and we heard in
[55:34] previous discussions it's always a
[55:37] question of temperatures temperature
[55:40] resistance of course the thermal
[55:43] expansion of these material when it
[55:46] comes for example to the refflow
[55:48] soldering so really soldering these
[55:51] devices to the PCB board and also for
[55:54] secondary operations like if you put in
[55:57] additional coatings, if you do leering
[56:00] etc. you always have to handle higher
[56:03] temperatures. So the top material in our
[56:07] portfolio the Xtem which is a TPI resin.
[56:11] This can withstand this refflow
[56:14] soldering process
[56:16] and actually you can injection mold a
[56:20] lens over mold with a housing and you
[56:23] are avoiding really all these secondary
[56:26] operations which you need using glass or
[56:31] using also epoxy. Um and uh yeah we can
[56:35] even do the JDK uh standard level level
[56:39] three with our resins. Now yeah as
[56:44] mentioned temperature is always um key
[56:47] if it comes to thermoplastic resins. Um
[56:51] and what is the compromise? Um actually
[56:54] um high transmission solutions are for
[56:59] example PMMA or PC. Um and the higher
[57:04] the thermoplastic
[57:06] um temperature resistance goes um the
[57:10] compromises the lower is uh the
[57:13] transmission but still in an acceptable
[57:16] range. I will show in the in the next
[57:18] slide. So um we have solutions robust
[57:22] solutions up to 210°
[57:25] C with a PEI resin. We can go up uh to
[57:30] 260
[57:32] degrees C with a TPI resin and even
[57:36] working on the next generation where we
[57:38] do a really robust reflow um to really
[57:42] cover all these different settings and
[57:44] and machine types of ref soldering
[57:47] machines. Yeah. And key is is actually
[57:52] um the temperature where the lenses has
[57:54] to go through. Doesn't matter whether
[57:56] it's a flash lens for a for a camera.
[57:59] Automotive camera lenses also have to
[58:02] resist higher heats and the sensors.
[58:05] Yeah. about um the
[58:08] opt as the transmission here you see for
[58:12] the PEI uh actually we are around the
[58:17] 88%
[58:19] um transmission we can of course
[58:22] increase it by using antreflective
[58:25] coatings
[58:26] um and for the reflow soldering material
[58:31] um we are yeah below the 80% uh
[58:34] transmission
[58:35] compared to glass of course it's lower.
[58:38] Um but with glass you cannot cover these
[58:42] extreme high high volumes. Um and now
[58:45] looking on the RAR I we heard a lot of
[58:48] questions here as well. Um yes we can
[58:51] provide of course a 1.7 but only at the
[58:54] 400 48 nanometer
[58:56] uh visible range. If it comes to the IR
[59:00] we are around 1.63
[59:03] 1.65 65 in in RAR I but remember
[59:09] thermoplastic uh parts can be injection
[59:12] molded can be injection compression
[59:15] molded or can be hot embossed and there
[59:19] you have really design freedom. Um if
[59:23] you can immediately start uh doing uh
[59:26] designs um the parameters of our
[59:29] high-end thermoplastic resins are in the
[59:32] Zmax optics studio so available you can
[59:35] start and uh yeah you have a a big
[59:39] partner with Sabi so uh we have about 34
[59:45] 34,000
[59:46] employees and um looking to the all over
[59:50] Sabi businesses says we are the third
[59:52] largest company chemical company. Now I
[59:56] know they are question what can I do for
[59:59] you. I hope I was very clear on on these
[01:00:04] offering on materials. But how can you
[01:00:08] help me? Uh let me know um the yeah the
[01:00:13] context to the design optical designers
[01:00:16] to these companies who are looking into
[01:00:19] injection molded lenses especially for
[01:00:22] high heat. Let me know
[01:00:26] um let let me know where the challenges
[01:00:30] are for epoxy where we can help with
[01:00:33] thermoplastic resins.
[01:00:36] And now looking forward to the
[01:00:38] questions. Thank you very much.
[01:00:42] Thank you so much for this great talk.
[01:00:45] Uh and thank you for being open to this
[01:00:47] kind of collaborations as well. So you
[01:00:50] told us what you can do for the others
[01:00:51] and uh Sabic is huge and uh it's really
[01:00:55] nice to see that you're going towards
[01:00:57] this. Let me um see first if we have we
[01:01:00] have actually
[01:01:00] I have a question. Yes. Yes. Because we
[01:01:02] have a one of your customers I think
[01:01:04] already. I don't know if it's public or
[01:01:06] not but I think I I just revealed it.
[01:01:08] One company in the room first ever Epic
[01:01:10] event is Vim Weber. Thank you very much
[01:01:13] for joining Andreas. I think you have a
[01:01:15] question. Question for our friend Burnt.
[01:01:18] Yes. So at first thank you for the talk
[01:01:20] and we are always looking for optical
[01:01:24] new optical materials. The topic we are
[01:01:27] doing a lot of research at the moment is
[01:01:29] the combination of thermoplastics of
[01:01:32] silicon as a multi- injection molding.
[01:01:36] Do you have already materials which can
[01:01:39] be used for over molding with silicon or
[01:01:42] do you have research in this area or um
[01:01:45] do you have some proposal which one we
[01:01:47] should use for testing?
[01:01:50] Not not right now. Um but of the there
[01:01:55] should be not not that challenge if you
[01:01:57] overmold um the extents with silicon
[01:02:01] especially because of the high
[01:02:03] temperature resistance.
[01:02:05] um is possible overmolding silicon to um
[01:02:10] PEI or TPI that should be possible.
[01:02:13] Actually we since we are material
[01:02:15] supplier and we are not supplying
[01:02:17] silicons um yeah we did not spend so
[01:02:21] much investments in in in this at the
[01:02:24] moment or or in our TNI but um let's
[01:02:27] have a talk offline and um we can
[01:02:30] collaborate here and if this is
[01:02:33] interesting for us yeah we have a lot um
[01:02:37] um laboratories and specialists looking
[01:02:40] into that and can support you. I think
[01:02:42] this is the whole point. This is the
[01:02:44] whole point from this meeting. And if
[01:02:45] you want introductions, you just shoot
[01:02:47] an email to Jose. He can help you a lot
[01:02:49] uh with this. And please let me see the
[01:02:52] questions that we got from Cristiano
[01:02:54] from EVG. So EV group, please unmute and
[01:02:58] you can ask
[01:03:00] to overm
[01:03:04] it can be done. So it's not a problem.
[01:03:07] The unique thing that you have to
[01:03:08] consider that in order to inject optical
[01:03:11] silicon you have to create a vacuum
[01:03:15] inside the tool. So you have it's
[01:03:19] difficult to make a co-molding.
[01:03:22] So it has to be done in two steps but
[01:03:24] it's possible.
[01:03:26] Okay. So we have a lot of optical
[01:03:28] silicon production here. But um the
[01:03:32] topic always is of course pricing of
[01:03:34] optical silicon as well. And if you can
[01:03:36] of course uh combine it so you only make
[01:03:40] the important optical parts out of
[01:03:42] optical silicon and the rest of a TP
[01:03:46] best in optical TPS. It would help of
[01:03:48] course.
[01:03:49] Yeah.
[01:03:51] So, uh, back to you, Christristiana.
[01:03:56] You can unmute.
[01:03:59] Yeah. Hi, Ben. So, we we know each other
[01:04:01] already and we also doing hot embossing
[01:04:05] and providing hot embossing tools and so
[01:04:07] my question is is planning in the future
[01:04:10] also to provide substrates and not just
[01:04:13] the pallets but the substrates as well.
[01:04:15] And if yes, which flatness do you think
[01:04:18] you can achieve? That would be one
[01:04:20] question. The other one you said, do you
[01:04:22] have a 164 at infrared? What is the
[01:04:26] refractive index at 589? Because I think
[01:04:29] Arthan, you might know want to know this
[01:04:32] as well.
[01:04:34] Okay, Christine, I um I will I will send
[01:04:37] you the presentation afterwards. It it
[01:04:39] was mentioned there. Um uh it's uh it's
[01:04:44] higher at five you said 528 nanometers
[01:04:48] 589
[01:04:49] 589 yeah it's it's even higher it must
[01:04:52] be around 1.67 67 but I can provide you
[01:04:55] the the name and you find it also in the
[01:04:57] in the presentation. Um yeah so we are
[01:05:01] supplier of granullets um but we also
[01:05:05] have a film industry so if it comes to
[01:05:08] sheets or or films
[01:05:11] um in the moment let's say they are more
[01:05:15] on the PC side we don't see that dynamic
[01:05:18] on on on the PEI side um it's possible
[01:05:22] we showed that we can provide PEI films
[01:05:26] but uh the market demand is not not big
[01:05:28] So if let's let's talk let's see um
[01:05:32] where you see the demand and and we can
[01:05:35] uh raise the capacity without issues.
[01:05:39] Yeah let's talk to web optics for
[01:05:40] example.
[01:05:42] Lot of work for you. Lot of work for you
[01:05:44] today Jose and Savi for Savi we have
[01:05:47] more questions to now from Braces
[01:05:49] Phonics
[01:05:51] please. Yeah. Excellent.
[01:05:53] Well actually Christine just asked the
[01:05:55] question. I was also wondering whether
[01:05:57] you were only uh uh supplying granulates
[01:05:59] or also in in sheet form. So you just
[01:06:02] answered that question. Thank you.
[01:06:05] Excellent.
[01:06:06] And these are available from Sabi and
[01:06:09] also from second supplier. So there is
[01:06:12] industry globally um making PEI films.
[01:06:16] It's not exclusively Sabi and we are
[01:06:20] yeah we are proud that many companies
[01:06:24] looking for that raw material to make
[01:06:26] films and sheets in in different
[01:06:28] thicknesses and and sizes. Of course
[01:06:32] before Brussels Photonix the VUV in
[01:06:35] Brussels is one of the companies have
[01:06:37] positioned themselves in the center of
[01:06:39] the ecosystem for for R&D. Actually 20
[01:06:42] years ago they invested heavily on a
[01:06:43] synron and since then they have really
[01:06:45] really helped many many industries in
[01:06:47] this sector. Jorgen I'm very interested.
[01:06:49] You have a meeting here with the rest of
[01:06:51] the supply chain. Can you answer the
[01:06:53] epic question on your first ever Epic
[01:06:55] meeting? What can you do for them? What
[01:06:56] can they do for you?
[01:06:58] Well um I heard already very nice input
[01:07:01] from uh from many different companies
[01:07:03] here. So uh from the material supply
[01:07:06] side, I think we really are very
[01:07:08] interested in uh in novel materials uh
[01:07:10] that can also be compatible with with
[01:07:12] higher temperatures and so on. The story
[01:07:14] that uh that we heard a couple of times
[01:07:17] um from from the supply side. So what
[01:07:19] can we do for them? Well, we also try to
[01:07:22] um to be active on on all kinds of uh
[01:07:25] free form optical shapes um in plastics
[01:07:28] or also in glass. We go from mold
[01:07:31] manufacturing to replication. Uh we do
[01:07:34] both hot embossing and injection molding
[01:07:36] in house. Um so we kind of um
[01:07:41] provide also a little bit of a of a
[01:07:43] one-stop shop solution uh to to some
[01:07:45] extent. Um and we're definitely
[01:07:47] interesting in in u in teaming up with
[01:07:50] some of the others uh here today. Also
[01:07:52] uh uh as mentioned before metrology of
[01:07:55] the free form optics is also something
[01:07:56] that uh that pops up many times. um that
[01:08:00] it's not easy to I mean you you can you
[01:08:02] can make something but then it's uh then
[01:08:04] it's a different thing to be able to to
[01:08:06] show that you have manufactured
[01:08:07] something to according to the specs. So
[01:08:09] also on the manufacturing metrology side
[01:08:11] we're always looking for uh for novel
[01:08:14] things that can help in in further
[01:08:16] optimizing the uh the production
[01:08:18] process.
[01:08:19] If you are in the need of a challenging
[01:08:20] challenging prototype with low TRL these
[01:08:23] people are the best possible contact.
[01:08:25] They're also the coordinators of the
[01:08:27] ACTFast initiative. So they already had
[01:08:30] the tools and the funding to help
[01:08:32] support in the manufacturing of the
[01:08:33] first prototype. So Jorgen, thank you
[01:08:35] very much for joining this first ever
[01:08:37] Epic meeting. I want to see you more
[01:08:38] often. And I want to go I want to go to
[01:08:41] a good friend. I want to go to a company
[01:08:43] called CDA. I want to go to PIA because
[01:08:45] PIA is one of these people that when
[01:08:47] she's at the meeting, the meeting is
[01:08:49] automatically better and because CDA is
[01:08:52] one of these companies that we are
[01:08:53] always extremely extremely happy to have
[01:08:55] for supporting on the methology solution
[01:08:58] for micro optics. Pia, thank you very
[01:09:01] much for joining. Tell us how the
[01:09:02] manufacturing of polymer optics is
[01:09:05] performed at CDA. The floor and the
[01:09:08] attention of everyone goes to CDA as a
[01:09:10] polymer optic manufacturer.
[01:09:15] Pia, I think we have you muted. I
[01:09:17] possibly
[01:09:19] we cannot hear you. At least I cannot.
[01:09:23] Pia, can you unmute yourself?
[01:09:28] I think you need to unmute yourself. I
[01:09:30] don't have the authority neither the
[01:09:31] power. No. Yes.
[01:09:32] Now I hope.
[01:09:33] Yes. Perfect.
[01:09:35] Can you see my screen? Not yet.
[01:09:38] Not yet. But we can see you and we can
[01:09:40] see you happy and excited for this
[01:09:42] particular meeting on polymer optics.
[01:09:48] Most important is to identify the
[01:09:50] potential collaboration. The floor is
[01:09:51] yours.
[01:09:54] Okay. Thank you very much um Epic for
[01:09:57] giving this uh this opportunity to tell
[01:09:59] you about CDA. I see already a lot of
[01:10:02] familiar faces. Um so a lot of you
[01:10:04] already know something about CDA. But
[01:10:07] the ones who don't, I want to um tell
[01:10:10] you that the the mass manufacturing of
[01:10:12] wafer level micro optics and polymer,
[01:10:15] that's pretty much all what I'm going to
[01:10:17] talk about and those are really the key
[01:10:18] words um of my presentation.
[01:10:22] Um our mission is we inspire and
[01:10:25] manufacture value. And this is something
[01:10:28] that um that it's sometimes a small
[01:10:31] text. uh this text is uh under our logo
[01:10:34] but it has a greater meaning at CDA.
[01:10:38] Um the inspiring means that it comes
[01:10:41] from a we have different processes at
[01:10:43] CDA and we want to inspire our customers
[01:10:46] using these different technologies and
[01:10:48] the manufacturing comes from that we not
[01:10:51] only do mic uh optic design uh and
[01:10:54] prototypes but our main focus is um
[01:10:56] manufacturing.
[01:11:01] CDA is a contract manufacturing company
[01:11:04] um with lot of scalable and flexible
[01:11:06] production possibilities.
[01:11:08] We have over 25 years of manufacturing
[01:11:11] experience and microoptics manufacturing
[01:11:15] since 2005.
[01:11:17] When I talk about customization, it
[01:11:20] means that we have no standard products.
[01:11:23] Um they are al always very custom
[01:11:26] specific.
[01:11:28] Um micro optics means for us um both
[01:11:31] defractive and refractive optics. Uh we
[01:11:34] have wide range of component types um
[01:11:37] which are listed there in the under. Uh
[01:11:41] we also make some uh lens packages and
[01:11:44] integrated optics.
[01:11:46] Um polymers is the topic of today and
[01:11:49] polymers um is very important for us
[01:11:53] because it um gives us an option to
[01:11:55] provide variety of types of optics based
[01:11:59] on the material. So we do not do any um
[01:12:02] polymer and glass versions.
[01:12:06] Our main markets are uh consumer
[01:12:09] electronics, automotive and industrial.
[01:12:12] But it's not only these but those are
[01:12:13] the main markets that our components are
[01:12:16] um uh applied um in the consumer
[01:12:19] electronics in AR VR mixed reality
[01:12:23] facial recognition and uh near infrared
[01:12:26] illumination those are the types of
[01:12:28] applications where the volumes are very
[01:12:30] very large and uh usually the lifetime
[01:12:33] of these products are very short.
[01:12:36] automotive um in applications such as um
[01:12:39] HUD diffusers, lidars and different
[01:12:42] kinds of projections and there you know
[01:12:45] the life cycle of these projects are
[01:12:47] usually much longer. The volumes are the
[01:12:49] medium and then we have more of the
[01:12:52] niche um markets industrial um which
[01:12:56] includes uh robotics, 3D sensing and um
[01:13:00] some of the optical encoder discs.
[01:13:05] We have quite a unique combination of
[01:13:07] different technologies. Um
[01:13:10] um the main process u portfolios that we
[01:13:14] have are mastering and tooling. This is
[01:13:17] basically an uh insert um that we put
[01:13:20] into our molding machines. We have three
[01:13:23] kinds of replication processes
[01:13:25] um uh impression conjunction molding,
[01:13:29] injection molding and then nano
[01:13:30] imprinting. We have different coating
[01:13:33] options. We also do printing. Um we can
[01:13:37] do optical testing in the lab and then
[01:13:39] the of course then in the in the high
[01:13:42] volume um setup we can stack.
[01:13:46] We can uh have three different
[01:13:47] singulation processes. We do sort and um
[01:13:51] picking and then we can also do some
[01:13:53] module assembly.
[01:13:56] Um the project always start with
[01:13:59] prototyping.
[01:14:01] Um and mostly of the productions are
[01:14:05] done in clean room. Either it is that
[01:14:08] encapsulated uh equipment or just in the
[01:14:11] um the whole even the equipment are in
[01:14:14] the clean room.
[01:14:17] Um from the service point of view that
[01:14:19] each project always get assigned um
[01:14:22] project manager and they are then the
[01:14:24] point of contact for the whole project.
[01:14:27] It's also very important to mention the
[01:14:29] IP protection. Um once you design a
[01:14:32] customer uh customer-based products, the
[01:14:35] IP issue is very sensitive and we we've
[01:14:39] known for the last 25 years to hold on
[01:14:42] to that topic.
[01:14:45] due to our automotive clients uh CDA has
[01:14:48] an AFT6949
[01:14:51] uh certificate and therefore we also
[01:14:54] have all these different databases IDE
[01:14:57] VMI solutions in place.
[01:15:02] So from the optical functions and
[01:15:04] feature sizes um we use our own uh
[01:15:09] software mostly. However, some of the
[01:15:12] commercial uh software is also
[01:15:14] available. However, the own code that
[01:15:16] our optical designers use they take in
[01:15:19] consideration the manufacturing
[01:15:22] parameters and the material shrinkage
[01:15:24] and so forth.
[01:15:26] Usually the feature sizes um that we
[01:15:29] work on are 0.5 micron and up.
[01:15:33] Um it varies a little bit of um uh how
[01:15:38] um large we can do. We are mostly in the
[01:15:41] in the micron range.
[01:15:43] Um and we would like to have the aspect
[01:15:45] ratio to be as close to one as possible.
[01:15:49] The optical functions um are from the
[01:15:53] the do that you could do is a beam
[01:15:55] splitting deflection combining different
[01:15:59] beams together. You can cimate, you can
[01:16:02] do spot arrays, lines, tailor made
[01:16:06] diffusers and of course pattern
[01:16:08] generators.
[01:16:10] And the pictures that you can see there
[01:16:11] on the left hand side that's actually
[01:16:14] microscopic picture of um CDA's logo and
[01:16:18] we have MLAs and some of the FEL lenses.
[01:16:25] At CDA, we constantly are pushing the
[01:16:28] boundaries both technologies and
[01:16:30] productwise and we currently working
[01:16:34] always working on the um further
[01:16:36] developments which here is listed a
[01:16:38] little bit of different programs not in
[01:16:41] detail uh what we have. So we have
[01:16:43] different programs on products,
[01:16:45] materials, processes and then the
[01:16:48] operations.
[01:16:55] I also want to u talk really briefly and
[01:16:58] take this opportunity of an exciting uh
[01:17:00] EU project called phenomenon.
[01:17:03] Um we are currently in the last phase of
[01:17:06] this a project and it's really
[01:17:08] interesting to see all these different
[01:17:10] um pieces come together.
[01:17:12] the phen phenomenon project. It's a
[01:17:14] laser manufacturing of uh 3D
[01:17:16] nanoructured optics using advanced
[01:17:19] photochemistry.
[01:17:22] We have there um great work that's done
[01:17:25] by CRNS in material development, Fluxim
[01:17:29] and ICFO
[01:17:31] uh in optical software development. We
[01:17:34] have also some revolutionary work by IMT
[01:17:37] and AEN on um uh laser processing and
[01:17:42] then also the production of small micro
[01:17:44] optics and machine building by MO.
[01:17:49] At the end of the project we will also
[01:17:51] build five demonstrators uh for tales
[01:17:54] PSA FN
[01:17:57] design LED flex enable and they will be
[01:18:00] then shown at the end of the end of the
[01:18:02] project.
[01:18:03] I want to also point out this special
[01:18:05] meta lens that was designed by ICFO
[01:18:09] and MO. The feature sizes of this meta
[01:18:14] lenses are between 100 and 450
[01:18:17] nanometers.
[01:18:21] And for the tradition of Epic comes the
[01:18:24] questions, what can we do for you and
[01:18:26] what can uh you do for us? We are
[01:18:29] looking for partnerships,
[01:18:31] new materials. Materials is a very very
[01:18:34] big topic in polymer optics. I think
[01:18:36] that those are the one that really make
[01:18:38] the big difference. We are looking for
[01:18:40] high volume customers. We have the
[01:18:42] capacity for that and of course always
[01:18:44] the challenges.
[01:18:46] What we offer is partnership. A lot of
[01:18:48] the work we do is really a partnership.
[01:18:50] You develop new products together. Uh we
[01:18:53] offer an optic design and manufacturing
[01:18:56] of customized micro optics. R&D
[01:18:58] developments and testing materials.
[01:19:03] So, thank you very much for this
[01:19:05] opportunity to tell you about CDD.
[01:19:09] Thank you so much for this very nice
[01:19:10] talk and for being ready with the epic
[01:19:13] questions that makes makes us really
[01:19:15] happy with that. I already have the
[01:19:16] first question for you from Nhatel from
[01:19:19] Suss Micro Optics
[01:19:23] from S Micro Optics. So we are producing
[01:19:24] on wafer level. Um and we look always
[01:19:28] for also within our project fabulous
[01:19:31] actually which is on um free form um
[01:19:34] surfaces. We also look for opportunities
[01:19:36] to uh to combine different technologies
[01:19:39] a little bit. So would I be interested
[01:19:41] in knowing how large is your largest
[01:19:43] surface you can treat? So for the moment
[01:19:46] I see it's 100 mm or whatever. Could you
[01:19:48] also go to 200 or 300 mm wafer like
[01:19:52] structuring? Uh and then what is the
[01:19:55] aspect ratios which you can do usually?
[01:19:58] So for instance, if you do look like at
[01:20:00] these large FAL lenses which have a very
[01:20:02] wet uh very
[01:20:05] steep flank on one side. So is this a
[01:20:07] problem for you to have something
[01:20:09] elements which are height of let's say
[01:20:11] 500 micron uh with a with a steep flank
[01:20:14] or is this easy? Thank you. So our core
[01:20:18] um area is really in the micron range.
[01:20:21] So let's say from anywhere from 500
[01:20:23] nanometers to let's say 20 microns. So
[01:20:26] that's where is the the comfortable
[01:20:29] range.
[01:20:30] Mhm.
[01:20:31] Um using our partners we can also do
[01:20:34] then the tool making for deeper
[01:20:36] structures and um then we can mold them
[01:20:39] at CDA. But let's say if we go more in
[01:20:42] the 500 uh micron range that's that's
[01:20:45] too much. So I would say that in the
[01:20:49] 250 300 micron is is pretty much the the
[01:20:54] maximum
[01:20:55] and the surface
[01:20:57] if you if you think about the surface
[01:20:59] area of the wafer can you go to 300 mm
[01:21:02] wafers for instance?
[01:21:03] No we have a limited limited u wafer
[01:21:06] size. There is um so we are mostly
[01:21:09] suitable for very small micro optics.
[01:21:12] Mhm.
[01:21:13] Um we have a special wafer u which has a
[01:21:15] center hole
[01:21:17] and that limits us um of the the
[01:21:20] footprint of the element. So let's say
[01:21:22] um 25 * 75 for example would be one or
[01:21:26] if if you are in the circular format
[01:21:29] let's say 38 mm diameter.
[01:21:32] Thank you very much.
[01:21:36] Thank you very much. Let me see if we
[01:21:38] have another questions uh from the from
[01:21:40] our uh speakers here. And I have a
[01:21:43] question for you from Cristiana.
[01:21:45] Cristiana, please unmute.
[01:21:48] Yeah, a question with the middle lens. I
[01:21:50] think it's very impressive. You showed
[01:21:52] the metal lens and we see a lot of
[01:21:54] interest in metal lenses currently. So
[01:21:56] my question is, is it fabricated by
[01:21:58] injection molding or was it an
[01:21:59] imprinting process? This metal lens was
[01:22:02] produced by a company called Mo and it
[01:22:06] is more in I would say in the in the 3D
[01:22:09] printing type. So it's an in a printed
[01:22:12] um method.
[01:22:14] Okay. Thank you.
[01:22:17] Thank you very much. Um please allow me
[01:22:19] to introduce Henneck from Isis. Hen
[01:22:22] please uh unmute and answer the epic
[01:22:26] questions. what do you do and how can
[01:22:29] the others help you?
[01:22:31] Yes. Um yes, hello. My name is Henning
[01:22:33] Cutter. I'm the founder and CEO of a
[01:22:35] company called Elis based in Alangan
[01:22:38] that is very close to Nerburgg in
[01:22:40] Germany. Um yeah, thank you very much
[01:22:43] for the u invitation. Um so some of the
[01:22:46] members I know already, some other I
[01:22:48] don't know. And uh we are on the
[01:22:51] supplier side. We produce uh measuring
[01:22:53] instruments to measure stress by
[01:22:55] refringence in um different materials,
[01:22:59] transparent materials such as glass and
[01:23:01] plastics of course and uh many of our
[01:23:05] customers use our imaging parameters to
[01:23:08] to control and optimize uh the stress by
[01:23:11] fringing in their products. So and that
[01:23:13] is what we can offer. So we can provide
[01:23:16] the measurement technology to control
[01:23:19] the stress by refringence uh in
[01:23:22] materials and also in in components so
[01:23:25] that polarization changes are not an
[01:23:27] issue and there are many applications
[01:23:30] demanding for that high precision optics
[01:23:33] uh semiconductor uh optics
[01:23:36] um yeah so that is mainly what we do. We
[01:23:39] also offer some software to for doing
[01:23:41] cull measurement and transmittance
[01:23:42] measurement where I also saw some graphs
[01:23:45] uh that there might be a need. So that's
[01:23:48] maybe in a nutshell what we do.
[01:23:51] And what can the others do for you? So
[01:23:53] what kind of collaborations are you
[01:23:55] looking for? What kind of introductions
[01:23:57] can Jose do for you today?
[01:23:59] Well, I I followed some of the talks and
[01:24:02] one was about creating diffusers on on
[01:24:04] glass and we we use diffusers in our
[01:24:07] instruments. So I would be interested in
[01:24:09] that and if it's not a what kind of view
[01:24:13] that would be. So I took some notes for
[01:24:15] me. So we might be able to find some uh
[01:24:18] suppliers among our customers. So it's a
[01:24:20] win-win situation sometimes for both
[01:24:21] sides and that's quite typical for us
[01:24:24] that our customers can be also suppliers
[01:24:27] at the same time. So it's very
[01:24:29] interested very interesting to be in
[01:24:32] such a networking environment.
[01:24:35] Thank you so much. We are very happy to
[01:24:37] have you today here and we are also
[01:24:38] happy to have Moro from Sai uh Sai
[01:24:42] Sketters. Please unmute and uh answer
[01:24:45] the epic question for us.
[01:24:48] Uh yes, thank you Sana. Uh let me
[01:24:50] introduce briefly myself. I'm business
[01:24:52] manager for the dispensible products uh
[01:24:55] within our specialty chemicals division.
[01:24:58] We are really involved in the
[01:24:59] encapsulation materials
[01:25:02] uh basically dispensible dryers,
[01:25:04] dispensable selective getters uh active
[01:25:07] barrier sealants and different kind of
[01:25:09] fillers. So um this field today is very
[01:25:12] new to me. So I would like to know if
[01:25:15] anyone is interested in some
[01:25:17] collaboration. What we can do is um okay
[01:25:21] provide our materials our expertise in
[01:25:24] polymers in hybrid materials especially
[01:25:26] for the encapsulations but not only in
[01:25:28] this and we have an R&D with uh many
[01:25:33] experienced people capable also of
[01:25:36] making simulations and to uh make
[01:25:40] servicing for our customers. So I'm very
[01:25:42] happy to be here. I'm learning a lot so
[01:25:45] I hope to to gain some more information
[01:25:48] on this new field for me. Thank you. We
[01:25:50] have been talking about sorry one quick
[01:25:52] question s we have been talking a lot
[01:25:53] about getters uh to to actually protect
[01:25:57] h parts of the chips at wafer level. H
[01:26:00] can you update us on that is going
[01:26:03] because I I know that getters have been
[01:26:04] used to to bring photonic integrated
[01:26:07] circuits and to bring electronics to to
[01:26:09] harsh environments. How does it work?
[01:26:11] Can you do it a wafer level? Now,
[01:26:14] uh we have different customers. Now,
[01:26:16] this is uh something new for us. For
[01:26:18] example, telecommunications or optics uh
[01:26:22] or photonics. Uh we provide dispensable
[01:26:24] dryers to be dispensed in air with
[01:26:27] different means of deposition like
[01:26:30] needle dispensing, in jetting uh blading
[01:26:33] etc. And usually we are asked to provide
[01:26:36] some highcapacity
[01:26:38] uh dryers which can be deposited
[01:26:40] directly by the customers in um not
[01:26:44] controlled environments for some hours.
[01:26:47] So uh we work on the kinetics of these
[01:26:49] materials in order to be usable and then
[01:26:52] we also work on the different kind of
[01:26:54] curing from thermal to UV to UV visible
[01:26:57] in order to be fully compatible with
[01:26:59] their process. So said usually we
[01:27:02] provide the materials and our customers
[01:27:05] uh use them and of course we can
[01:27:08] fine-tune the properties of our
[01:27:10] materials in order to be used with their
[01:27:11] processes.
[01:27:13] See yeah it is very interesting because
[01:27:14] I want to go back to Navitar I want to
[01:27:17] go back to Ian because in the very
[01:27:19] beginning in the very beginning Ian you
[01:27:21] were talking about the automotive sector
[01:27:23] you were talking about the different
[01:27:25] glues optics to go to these cars
[01:27:27] environments. We have heard from Savic
[01:27:29] that they make the polymer for these
[01:27:30] harsh environments. We have already now
[01:27:32] heard from size getters that we already
[01:27:35] can actually protect lenses and protect
[01:27:38] any part of the of the instrument for
[01:27:40] harsh environment at the same time
[01:27:41] deliver polymer actually dispense it a
[01:27:42] wafer level. And now we're going to hear
[01:27:44] actually from Volvo in a in a couple of
[01:27:46] minutes. But before Volvo takes the
[01:27:48] stage I want to go to you as an
[01:27:50] integrator. Ian, can you tell us so far
[01:27:53] from the presentations that we have from
[01:27:55] Savic, from Scies, from all these
[01:27:58] people, what kind of challenges you see
[01:28:01] in the supply chain and especially what
[01:28:03] could you do for a car maker like Volvo
[01:28:06] with the rest of the supply chain?
[01:28:08] Well, my uh point of view here is to to
[01:28:12] pick up information from the material
[01:28:14] makers uh the making these polymers so I
[01:28:19] can find out the uh material properties
[01:28:22] that will be useful for me uh and the
[01:28:24] companies that can uh do the moldings to
[01:28:29] make lens elements that would be
[01:28:31] suitable for me. Um we are working with
[01:28:35] our customers uh integrating
[01:28:40] um in particular LAR and uh automotive
[01:28:42] imaging lenses uh and their customers
[01:28:46] are tier one automotive companies. Um,
[01:28:50] so I I I'm particularly interested in
[01:28:53] further down the the uh further up the
[01:28:55] the chain to to the to my supply side.
[01:28:59] So so I so I can I'm an optical designer
[01:29:02] so I want to know what features I can uh
[01:29:05] include in the design and what
[01:29:07] materials.
[01:29:10] Thank you so much. And this is very
[01:29:11] interesting. Um
[01:29:14] maybe we will hear more repliers to
[01:29:16] these challenges soon. But I am very
[01:29:18] happy to have in the room uh with us an
[01:29:21] epic friend now because this is your
[01:29:23] second time you join us for an online
[01:29:26] technology meeting. The first one was
[01:29:27] for automotive lighting and um today
[01:29:30] again we heard about automotive
[01:29:31] application of polyare optics. I'm very
[01:29:34] happy to present Paul Henry the from
[01:29:37] Volvo cars. Thank you so much for
[01:29:39] joining the meeting today and please
[01:29:42] tell us what is Volvo looking for.
[01:29:45] Yes. Hello.
[01:29:55] So,
[01:29:59] so do you see my screen? Yeah.
[01:30:00] Yes. Yes.
[01:30:01] Yeah. Okay. So I will try to give you
[01:30:03] just some insight about what is needed
[01:30:06] for automotive lighting application. So
[01:30:08] my name is Polarima. I'm the technical
[01:30:10] leader for Volvo cars in in Sweden. But
[01:30:14] perhaps you have seen I have a French
[01:30:15] accent also. So what are the usage for
[01:30:18] polymer? So in automotive lighting. So I
[01:30:21] put a picture from from ARMA but you can
[01:30:23] see that we use it for red lamp for the
[01:30:25] front. We use it for the rear lamp and
[01:30:27] we use it also for interior lighting.
[01:30:31] Yeah. So what are the stake we have at
[01:30:34] Volvo cars and for other car makers? So
[01:30:36] we have stakes for outside and for
[01:30:40] internal components. So for outside I
[01:30:42] think you know but the characteristic we
[01:30:44] want to have for the lens is a good UV
[01:30:47] resistance a good scratch resistance
[01:30:51] uh good aesthetic rendering and also a
[01:30:54] good mechanical resistance especially
[01:30:57] for pedestrian crash. and after for
[01:31:00] internal components. So we want to have
[01:31:02] a good opt optical efficiency and we
[01:31:05] want to have also good thermal property.
[01:31:08] So I will focus especially my
[01:31:10] presentation about internal component
[01:31:12] because I think it is the topic of today
[01:31:14] meeting.
[01:31:15] So optical properties. So the main uh
[01:31:18] things uh we have is uh two different
[01:31:22] application for optics. It is when we
[01:31:24] want to diffuse light so with in a light
[01:31:27] guide. So it is a picture on the on the
[01:31:29] left with the example of the pujo for
[01:31:31] example and after you have the
[01:31:33] reflectivity it is example of the
[01:31:36] reflector. So parabola reflector for
[01:31:38] example when we use a plastic part
[01:31:41] without metallization or something like
[01:31:44] so the good properties we want to have
[01:31:46] is a good transmittance or a good
[01:31:48] reflectivity.
[01:31:50] When we use a diffusive material, we
[01:31:53] want to have a high optical efficiency
[01:31:57] and also we don't want to have a color
[01:31:59] shift when we put light in a long
[01:32:02] plastic part. So especially when the
[01:32:04] plastic part the length is more than 500
[01:32:06] mm we have and we can see on a lot of
[01:32:09] cars a color shift. So the light at the
[01:32:11] beginning is white and at the end the
[01:32:13] light is yellow and this is not
[01:32:15] acceptable.
[01:32:17] So also what is important so about um
[01:32:21] plastics and polymers is the thermal
[01:32:23] properties. So you can see a simulation
[01:32:25] of Volvo XC60 lamp. So it is a thermal
[01:32:30] simulation when the LED are on and you
[01:32:33] can see that so you have so
[01:32:36] you have some um thermal increase and
[01:32:40] especially on the plastic. So in this
[01:32:41] case it is a reflector but we can have
[01:32:43] LEDs also in other parts. the the
[01:32:45] plastic will be at 80, 100 degree, 120°.
[01:32:49] So when we use a plastic for optical
[01:32:52] system, we need to have a high efficient
[01:32:55] plastic with high thermal properties. So
[01:32:59] especially sometimes the PMMF can be at
[01:33:01] the limit and we need to have a
[01:33:03] polycarbonate or polycarbonate with a
[01:33:06] high temperature
[01:33:08] and also with this uh environment we we
[01:33:11] need to have no color shift also because
[01:33:13] sometimes at 80 or 100 120 degree we
[01:33:17] have a color shift.
[01:33:20] Yes. And uh my last slide is about what
[01:33:24] are our needs.
[01:33:26] So I just put an example of the XC60
[01:33:29] headlamp. So you can see on the left the
[01:33:31] picture and we can see when you dismount
[01:33:32] the part the component we have for the
[01:33:35] optical system. So you can see for
[01:33:36] example white reflector so with a very
[01:33:40] high uh reflectivity and after we have
[01:33:44] um inner lens or sort of light guide and
[01:33:48] so you can see on the section before the
[01:33:49] light guide the thickness for example is
[01:33:51] 1 cm something like this. So it is a big
[01:33:54] thickness. So it is very heavy and on
[01:33:57] the side you will have the LEDs. So what
[01:33:59] is important for a car makers is to have
[01:34:01] more sustainable material especially if
[01:34:03] we can use a recycled material to use to
[01:34:06] do this sort of functionality
[01:34:09] to have also less coating. So for
[01:34:12] example for the outer lens we have a UV
[01:34:14] coating because polycarbonate. So could
[01:34:16] we remove this coating and use PMA for
[01:34:19] example for front lump? Could can we
[01:34:21] remove also the metallization and to
[01:34:23] have a very good reflectivity only with
[01:34:26] white material perhaps also can we
[01:34:29] increase the transmittance
[01:34:31] and homogenity of this plastic
[01:34:33] components and also in the same time can
[01:34:35] we reduce the weight. So if you see the
[01:34:37] to hammer plastic part for example or
[01:34:40] XC60 is around 400 g something like
[01:34:43] this. So would like to be able to have
[01:34:46] it with um lighter weight.
[01:34:50] That's the end of my presentation. I
[01:34:52] think I can answer to a lot of question.
[01:34:54] I was not there before. I'm sorry but it
[01:34:56] was very interesting I suppose but I was
[01:34:58] not available but so I don't know
[01:35:00] exactly what was discussed just before
[01:35:01] but I can answer to all your questions.
[01:35:04] Thank you.
[01:35:04] The whole the whole thing until now was
[01:35:06] an introduction for your presentation.
[01:35:08] So everything that we were talking about
[01:35:09] is how can we help Volvo when they come
[01:35:11] here with their challenges and you came
[01:35:13] with very interesting challenges today.
[01:35:15] Thank you very much for your
[01:35:16] presentation. You talk about a more
[01:35:18] sustainable material
[01:35:21] less coatings, better transmittance,
[01:35:23] reflectivity homogenity and weight
[01:35:25] reduction. So let's address this. So I'm
[01:35:28] going to open right now the floor for
[01:35:30] questions and potential collaborations.
[01:35:33] Who is the first one to raise the hand?
[01:35:37] As you can see, this is a very very shy
[01:35:40] community. They have no questions of
[01:35:41] potential for collaboration normally. I
[01:35:43] I actually Yes, we have a question from
[01:35:46] Burn Savic.
[01:35:47] Oh yeah, this is also our field of
[01:35:50] expertise. Actually, it's not this
[01:35:52] really high heat. When I'm talking about
[01:35:55] high heat, I talked about 200° C plus.
[01:35:58] We have a team of specially for
[01:36:01] automotive lighting. I will bring you
[01:36:03] into contact with them. So we have a lot
[01:36:06] as as you especially for your demand the
[01:36:09] high reflective materials. Yeah. You
[01:36:11] know our Lexan for the outer outer
[01:36:14] window but the interior parts we have a
[01:36:16] wide portfolio. I will provide you the
[01:36:19] contract.
[01:36:21] Before I give the floor to the next
[01:36:22] question which is Mark I am I am curious
[01:36:25] about something here. H I want to ask
[01:36:27] you Paul and burnt. So burnt from Savic
[01:36:30] they make material and Paul needs
[01:36:35] needs optics. So there is a step in the
[01:36:38] value chain right there is a company
[01:36:40] that we need to connect Sabic with
[01:36:42] Volvo. Is that right Paul?
[01:36:43] Right.
[01:36:44] Yes. But we we are in contact with Sabi
[01:36:46] or with Covestro with Arma with Evony a
[01:36:49] lot of companies. So we work together
[01:36:50] because we have to develop new grade of
[01:36:52] material. It is very important. So we
[01:36:55] are in contact together but I can
[01:36:57] discuss again with Sabik because it's a
[01:36:59] good company and yes perhaps for
[01:37:02] polycarbonate we use lexan especially
[01:37:05] for outer lens but not for optical
[01:37:07] system perhaps we should use more I
[01:37:09] don't know
[01:37:10] there we have higher higher grade yes
[01:37:12] okay
[01:37:13] we have we have one more question you is
[01:37:15] a great company UPMT vance is also a
[01:37:18] great company all the way in Belgium
[01:37:20] Mark what's on your mind
[01:37:22] yes hello thank you I say um so well we
[01:37:27] are not a big company. We are the
[01:37:29] smallest company probably of of all of
[01:37:31] you. So but uh the question is about uh
[01:37:35] types of of of the evolution of of
[01:37:37] headlamps for cars. Do you also at Volvo
[01:37:42] have interest for um uh new kinds of uh
[01:37:46] um headlamps using lens arrays like
[01:37:49] micro lens array headlamps?
[01:37:53] Yeah. Yeah. Yes, we all the car makers
[01:37:55] investigate this microl lens array. Yes,
[01:37:58] so we are interested. Uh the main
[01:38:00] problem we have today is about power
[01:38:02] consumption because the optical
[01:38:04] efficiency of the microlens array is
[01:38:06] quite uh quite small and the price is
[01:38:09] also expensive but we are we are
[01:38:12] investigating this technology. Yes,
[01:38:15] especially for low beam not for
[01:38:16] signaling function but for lighting
[01:38:18] function.
[01:38:20] Okay,
[01:38:21] any further questions?
[01:38:24] When it comes to the to molding the
[01:38:27] molding the material, molding the
[01:38:29] optics, is there any particular
[01:38:31] challenge on the shape on the on the
[01:38:34] methology, on the on the resolution?
[01:38:39] Uh yes, we have we have when we have
[01:38:41] very sick optics, so you know the the
[01:38:43] sickness can be 1 cm, sometimes it can
[01:38:46] be two cm. So you if you inject the part
[01:38:49] in one shot, it can take 20 minutes. So
[01:38:52] you have a two shot system. So three
[01:38:54] shot systems eight K tools sometimes. So
[01:38:58] it is very very complex. So complexity
[01:39:02] is a cost. So perhaps we can simplify
[01:39:04] also the tool to to to know some better
[01:39:06] things to do in the tool something like
[01:39:09] this. So it is something we would like
[01:39:11] to investigate also.
[01:39:12] Let's investigate it. I this is the best
[01:39:14] time possible. So I'm going to go to
[01:39:15] Sonex Benham. We are looking for a
[01:39:19] company that helps us mold very thick
[01:39:21] optics. Can you maybe help us on this?
[01:39:23] Uh yes, sure. Uh thank you first of all
[01:39:26] for organizing this great meeting again.
[01:39:29] Um my name is Benjamin Bulah. I'm a
[01:39:31] managing director of Sonics and I'm
[01:39:33] happy to uh to present our company very
[01:39:36] briefly. We are making uh we are doing
[01:39:39] ultra precision manufacturing and uh
[01:39:42] among those products we have molds for
[01:39:46] molding thick LED lenses for automotive
[01:39:50] lighting applications
[01:39:52] um such as probably in the Volvo cars
[01:39:54] are used and uh we also do um we also
[01:39:59] produce molding masters for imprint
[01:40:04] lithography
[01:40:05] or for the for the UV cur ing process of
[01:40:08] micro optics. Um we have a variety of
[01:40:11] applications. It goes really from from
[01:40:14] lighting
[01:40:15] um to uh camera lenses and um other
[01:40:20] imaging applications.
[01:40:24] Paul also well obviously I think the two
[01:40:26] of you should speak because when it
[01:40:28] comes to the molding of the thick optics
[01:40:30] sonx really has some particular added
[01:40:33] value. But uh Paul, I'm interested when
[01:40:35] you talk about metallization.
[01:40:37] Uh could you elaborate a bit on what
[01:40:40] kind of metallization coatings would be,
[01:40:42] you know, your Santa Claus Christmas
[01:40:44] list after the meeting today?
[01:40:46] No, my Santa Claus Christmas list is to
[01:40:48] remove the metallization because
[01:40:49] metallization it is some aluminium we
[01:40:51] put in the on the plastic. But after if
[01:40:53] you have metallization, you cannot
[01:40:55] recycle the plastic at the end because
[01:40:58] it is not possible. So we want to remove
[01:41:00] this metallization. And if we want to
[01:41:02] remove the metallization, we need to
[01:41:03] have a reflectivity of the plastic which
[01:41:05] is the same with without metallization.
[01:41:08] So I know that some white plastic can be
[01:41:11] has been developed but the reflectivity
[01:41:15] can uh can be still improved. So that's
[01:41:17] why we want to remove all this coating
[01:41:19] because if you have a coating you cannot
[01:41:21] recycle the material at the end. Did
[01:41:23] did you tell me the the the index value?
[01:41:27] Oh
[01:41:27] it is it should be 90% reflectivity.
[01:41:30] 90% Anybody can help on that. 90%
[01:41:33] reflectivity of optics.
[01:41:36] Hands raised. Potential collaboration
[01:41:39] here.
[01:41:42] If whenever you need something on the
[01:41:44] R&D side in this community, I always
[01:41:47] look at my friends in grats because you
[01:41:51] researches been one of the companies who
[01:41:53] has help incorporating high TLS from the
[01:41:55] low TLS value. Joan research is
[01:41:57] represented today by Paul Harmon. It
[01:41:59] cannot be better represented. Paul,
[01:42:00] thank you very much for joining this
[01:42:02] meeting. You you have seen the
[01:42:03] challenges from Volvo especially on
[01:42:06] removing metalization, removing UV
[01:42:08] coatings, actually having very
[01:42:09] homogeneous optics, reducing the weight.
[01:42:12] Anything resonated with you on this?
[01:42:15] Yes. Uh hi Jose, thanks for introducing
[01:42:18] me in this discussion. U in fact um
[01:42:22] reflectivity of polymer materials is not
[01:42:25] just a matter of the material. It can
[01:42:27] also be a matter of the surface
[01:42:28] structure that you're applying to that.
[01:42:31] Uh we are uh for example
[01:42:35] trying to provide specific surface
[01:42:37] structures uh which have their optical
[01:42:40] effects from their structure rather than
[01:42:43] from the materials. So if you think of
[01:42:45] anti-reflective uh structures from moth
[01:42:48] eyes and these things can be discussed.
[01:42:50] uh but I think it it really always
[01:42:53] depends uh it will be always a a
[01:42:56] custom-designed uh problem and uh we can
[01:43:00] think about your requirements as a
[01:43:03] research institute uh to do a certain
[01:43:05] prototype
[01:43:07] uh in in the way of for for example
[01:43:10] molding inserts. So we we have a uh a
[01:43:13] lithographic technology available which
[01:43:16] goes through um grayscale lithography or
[01:43:20] even two photo absorption lithography uh
[01:43:23] over a uh replication process to certain
[01:43:26] molds that can be galvanized. uh and we
[01:43:29] can produce for example a uh injection
[01:43:32] molding insert with different uh
[01:43:35] structures uh that you can use uh to
[01:43:38] improve or alter your optical uh
[01:43:41] properties of the injection molded
[01:43:43] parts.
[01:43:46] I think there's obviously some room for
[01:43:47] cooperation here. Uh Paul uh more things
[01:43:50] don't worry we are not letting you off
[01:43:52] the hook. There's more things I want to
[01:43:53] discuss with you. Uh the first one is uh
[01:43:56] are you looking for any challenges on
[01:43:58] interior lighting?
[01:44:01] Yes, we have the same topic for interior
[01:44:03] lighting. Yes, but I am a technical
[01:44:06] expert for exterior.
[01:44:07] Okay.
[01:44:08] For interior lighting especially we have
[01:44:09] a lot of plastic components and we want
[01:44:11] to to use a recycling recycle material
[01:44:15] especially.
[01:44:16] So with crystal polycarbonate or crystal
[01:44:19] PMA we have not today. So it is
[01:44:20] something we would like to develop
[01:44:23] especially for interior lighting. Yeah.
[01:44:25] So it's very good news because in our uh
[01:44:28] upcoming online technology meetings uh
[01:44:30] starting uh 31st of August for the
[01:44:33] winter run we will have exactly a
[01:44:35] meeting on interior lighting. Isn't that
[01:44:38] correct Jose? And that will be very
[01:44:40] interesting. So I will I will keep you
[01:44:41] pulary on the list of uh
[01:44:44] the most important thing here is that
[01:44:45] Suss Micro optics is a company that has
[01:44:49] fully fully automated qualified their
[01:44:52] manufacturing process. Well to should
[01:44:54] say this I'm not a salesperson for Sus
[01:44:55] Micro Optics. Am I to Can you tell me
[01:44:58] about the the providing optics for the
[01:45:00] automotive sector? Why is SUS micro
[01:45:02] optics special? Uh well this is because
[01:45:05] we are we are particular strong in in
[01:45:09] our expertise not only in the
[01:45:11] fabrication we have the full fabrication
[01:45:12] chain but we also have all the optical
[01:45:15] and uh knowledge uh um but we do don't
[01:45:19] do the mastering so leave this to to
[01:45:21] other partners but the without optical
[01:45:24] knowledge you are not able to fully
[01:45:26] design the fabrication chain to have
[01:45:28] really very uh good products which also
[01:45:31] can withstand the high constraints like
[01:45:35] temperature uh and uh and all the other
[01:45:38] things which you need for these kind of
[01:45:39] applications and also of course the
[01:45:41] quality of the optical piece itself
[01:45:43] because what you need is this very high
[01:45:46] definition of of patterns especially for
[01:45:48] low beams and and things like this and
[01:45:50] this is something which you only obtain
[01:45:52] if you can bring together the optical
[01:45:54] design and the fabrication and all do
[01:45:57] the optimization inhouse. Yeah. So this
[01:46:00] is an important important point in my
[01:46:02] opinion.
[01:46:03] More things for for Paul. Um have you
[01:46:06] considered I think Paul already Paul
[01:46:08] Harmon already said something like this
[01:46:10] but I want to ask again. Have you
[01:46:12] considered some surface structuring on
[01:46:14] the top of the of the optics?
[01:46:16] Yeah. Yes. We use the surface. So after
[01:46:18] we know that uh uh when the surface is
[01:46:21] very small we need to have specific
[01:46:22] technology to be able to inject the
[01:46:24] part. So yes. So we we we we investigate
[01:46:28] this sort of technology but it is
[01:46:29] something we we just begin to use in
[01:46:31] automotive industry for automotive
[01:46:33] lighting. So it is not something that
[01:46:36] really developed
[01:46:37] with with laser based processing. We
[01:46:40] have managed to make aquafobic surfaces
[01:46:43] for actually not having the water next
[01:46:45] to the light when it's raining a lot. Is
[01:46:47] that potentially a a use case? Is there
[01:46:50] interest from that?
[01:46:53] I don't know. Perhaps yes, perhaps not.
[01:46:55] I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.
[01:46:57] If there if there is if you need a
[01:46:59] partner on laser based processing, I
[01:47:01] think my friend Lars can can help. Lars
[01:47:03] from Le Central handover. You're being
[01:47:05] quite quiet. I'm not used to this. Lars,
[01:47:07] something is happening today. Lars, h
[01:47:10] you heard the presentation from Volvo.
[01:47:11] They are talking about weight reduction.
[01:47:13] They are talking about better
[01:47:14] transmitter reflectivity of the optics.
[01:47:16] They are talking about less coatings.
[01:47:18] Anything resonated with you on this?
[01:47:21] Um on the topic you just mentioned about
[01:47:24] uh surface structuring for hyroscopic
[01:47:27] topics that's not my field of expertise
[01:47:29] here at leender but I can I can get you
[01:47:31] in touch with with my colleagues that
[01:47:32] are very um firm in that. That's um um
[01:47:36] so it's tough for me to give you the the
[01:47:39] the details there right now. But uh I I
[01:47:41] heard about um
[01:47:44] on your slides you mentioned some
[01:47:45] something about cost efficiencies in
[01:47:47] each step. And then um you said
[01:47:50] something about removing coatings um
[01:47:52] because of or getting rid of rid of
[01:47:55] coatings because uh to you want to
[01:47:58] recycle later on. So um I would be
[01:48:02] interested if there's some that's it's
[01:48:04] new for me right now that approach
[01:48:06] because I work in coding so I want to
[01:48:08] keep the coatings but definitely you
[01:48:10] always have to go down new avenues. So
[01:48:12] if there's a um an approach or first
[01:48:16] ideas on on having um coatings that are
[01:48:20] actually um that have a good adhesion to
[01:48:24] to the optics but you can also get rid
[01:48:26] of them again. Maybe that's that's a
[01:48:28] good uh avenue to go out to go down. Um
[01:48:31] so maybe there's something to talk but
[01:48:33] just some first thoughts.
[01:48:34] I think Beam has another point. Beam
[01:48:37] from Sonics. I just want to comment uh
[01:48:40] maybe uh one idea could be to use a
[01:48:42] total internal reflection uh for such a
[01:48:46] approach that you use a transparent
[01:48:48] material and uh by combining special
[01:48:51] properties of these materials you can
[01:48:54] create an internal reflection in the
[01:48:56] material without having a reflective
[01:48:58] coating in there.
[01:49:03] What do you think Paul? Total internal
[01:49:04] reflection could be an an option. Yes,
[01:49:06] we use that for a lot of function in
[01:49:08] lighting. So when we have no reflector,
[01:49:10] but when we have what we call edge
[01:49:12] light, so it is totally indirect
[01:49:15] reflection. So we use this technology
[01:49:17] after we have the coating that was the
[01:49:18] metallization, but after we have also
[01:49:20] the UV coating, so it is a coating to
[01:49:22] protect the polycarbonate. So perhaps it
[01:49:25] is a question for Sabic, but we want to
[01:49:27] remove this coating because it is
[01:49:29] expensive to produce. You need to have a
[01:49:31] big plant and the plant uh um it's a
[01:49:36] huge plant to be able to do this coating
[01:49:38] and after this coating also we know that
[01:49:41] after three years five years we can have
[01:49:42] some yellow lump or after 10 years it's
[01:49:45] not very good. So today the solution we
[01:49:48] have with plastic lens is less good than
[01:49:50] what we have in the past with glass
[01:49:51] lens. You can see a Ferrari with 50
[01:49:53] years old the glass is totally clear and
[01:49:56] is not yellow. So that's why we want to
[01:49:58] remove this coating to be able to have
[01:50:00] another solution without I know with PMA
[01:50:03] we don't need coating for example.
[01:50:05] We have one more question we go to Ven
[01:50:07] Weber.
[01:50:09] So it's not really a question but a
[01:50:10] comment on what Paul just said. So what
[01:50:13] we were doing for for example these rain
[01:50:16] sensors in cars where we also have a
[01:50:18] problem with the polycarbonate. We have
[01:50:20] there are two layer attempts. So we have
[01:50:22] a polycarbonate which um is UV absorbent
[01:50:27] and take this over the polycarbonate
[01:50:30] which really forms the optics. So this
[01:50:32] is a way to remove the coating but just
[01:50:35] go to a two layer temp.
[01:50:38] Yeah,
[01:50:39] but I think you know that as well but
[01:50:43] you know we had a lot of things that we
[01:50:45] can do to make Volvo even better. I
[01:50:48] drive an S60. You guys make fantastic
[01:50:51] cars, but I would like to make sure that
[01:50:53] you also had the best optics in the
[01:50:55] world by using the supply chain of the
[01:50:58] epic members. So, I'm going to make a
[01:51:00] lot of introductions here. Your
[01:51:01] challenges were very clear. You were a
[01:51:03] star. Stay with us till the end because
[01:51:05] I come back to you at the end of the
[01:51:06] meeting. But let's continue. First of
[01:51:09] all, Paul, thank you very much. You made
[01:51:11] the epic meeting even more epic. We
[01:51:14] continue with the program and we go now.
[01:51:16] We go on now to one company which is a
[01:51:18] market leader in this sector. I am
[01:51:20] extremely happy to have cathode all the
[01:51:24] way from Italy telling us how we can
[01:51:27] make better optics with their fantastic
[01:51:30] equipment and the fast fantastic
[01:51:32] manufacturing facilities. Thank you very
[01:51:34] much for being with us today. Uh you
[01:51:37] asked me to share a video which I will
[01:51:39] do from the beginning and then you can
[01:51:41] take over with your presentation. But
[01:51:43] let's start with the video. Thank you
[01:51:46] very much Jose.
[01:51:48] I am Christian Tedaro from Katach Auto
[01:51:50] Electronics from Milano, Italy. Our
[01:51:54] company is born in 1985
[01:51:57] starting with light guides, light pipes
[01:52:00] for the first LEDs.
[01:52:03] And as the first LEDs then starts to
[01:52:05] make real white light, we switched over
[01:52:09] completely to lenses and reflectors.
[01:52:12] We offer in our house 100% inside the
[01:52:17] complete optical development, the
[01:52:20] pooling construction process, the mass
[01:52:24] production with almost 72 customized
[01:52:28] injection machines, coating department,
[01:52:32] laser cutting station, gasket stations,
[01:52:36] uh coating department, everything is
[01:52:39] 100% inhouse
[01:52:42] In order to control the quality, to
[01:52:45] control the costs and to control the
[01:52:48] delivery times,
[01:52:50] we are known on the market because we
[01:52:53] are very transparent what we do, how we
[01:52:56] do it, and where we do it. As you can
[01:53:00] see in the picture, we have 72
[01:53:02] customized injection machines with a
[01:53:05] production capability of approximately
[01:53:07] 10 million light points per month.
[01:53:12] We are one of the biggest secondary
[01:53:14] optical manufacturer in the world and I
[01:53:16] think they're one of the unique one who
[01:53:19] has this production capability in house
[01:53:22] in Europe. We are completely independent
[01:53:26] from every external supplier.
[01:53:29] The only thing that arrives from outside
[01:53:31] is the raw material, but we have
[01:53:34] suppliers only in Europe in order to be
[01:53:38] sure that the material has never delays
[01:53:42] in the deliveries. Each optic pass four
[01:53:46] different quality controls before she
[01:53:48] gets out of the house.
[01:53:50] We elaborate. We use every kind of
[01:53:53] nitacrylate but also optical silicons
[01:53:57] and very special materials as well.
[01:54:02] 55%
[01:54:04] of our turnover is custommade.
[01:54:08] We have a standard product portfolio of
[01:54:11] approximately 40,000 different lenses
[01:54:14] and 30,000 different light guides and
[01:54:17] light pipes.
[01:54:19] Nevertheless,
[01:54:21] as I as I already told you, more than
[01:54:24] 55% of our turnover is custommade.
[01:54:28] This because there is an increasing
[01:54:31] demand on the market in order to have
[01:54:34] customized lenses and customized
[01:54:36] solution. As we learned from our
[01:54:39] colleagues from the material supplier
[01:54:42] from Sabi, it's not only a question of
[01:54:45] the material. Everything has to be
[01:54:48] combined and developed in order to be to
[01:54:52] have the best possible efficiency and
[01:54:58] to be suitable for the application that
[01:55:00] you have to use. Remember that each LED
[01:55:04] has its own optical characteristic and
[01:55:06] only if the optic is developed a
[01:55:10] positive for this LED you will have a
[01:55:13] perfect result.
[01:55:15] We have sales and stock all over the
[01:55:18] world, but I repeat, we are 100% in
[01:55:22] Milano based and whoever would like to
[01:55:25] come and visit us is hardly invited to
[01:55:30] to see that this is not only a rand but
[01:55:33] this is a real video about our
[01:55:37] I I want to come a visit but Sana
[01:55:38] already told me that you already invited
[01:55:40] her so she will be the first one to go.
[01:55:43] uh with most important thing I think did
[01:55:45] you want to share some slides as well or
[01:55:46] shall we go to the epic question now?
[01:55:48] No I think we can I think our colleagues
[01:55:52] already showed a lot of slides so I
[01:55:54] would pass directly to the to the
[01:55:56] question.
[01:55:57] I fully fully agree with that. I ain't
[01:55:59] going to be close to be dead by
[01:56:00] PowerPoint too many slides in my head.
[01:56:03] Most important you you already your
[01:56:05] first ever epic meeting but you already
[01:56:07] know how it works is the epic question.
[01:56:09] What can they do for you? What can you
[01:56:10] do for them?
[01:56:18] I don't know if we can still hear you
[01:56:19] Christian.
[01:56:20] Uh yes, someone is asking for my email
[01:56:23] address.
[01:56:23] Ah, don't worry. They they will they
[01:56:25] will get it later. Don't worry. So the
[01:56:27] the Epic members, so we have all the all
[01:56:29] the supply chain. You said that you
[01:56:30] don't do your own materials. Can you
[01:56:32] give us some challenges on the
[01:56:34] materials? For example,
[01:56:37] we use approximately 50 tons of PMA per
[01:56:41] month. Then for sure we use also
[01:56:45] polycarbonates
[01:56:46] um strange materials like PME, PMHD,
[01:56:51] XONX
[01:56:53] for sure. What we would need in this
[01:56:55] moment is for example a naracate that
[01:56:59] has a transmission factor that can
[01:57:02] transmit wavelengths
[01:57:04] lower than 280 nanometers for example.
[01:57:08] As you know now in this moment with the
[01:57:11] corona virus the big business business
[01:57:14] is the sunification and everybody is
[01:57:17] asking for lances for UV LEDs. you know
[01:57:22] uh but it's it's not easy because each
[01:57:26] wavelength can be transmitted only from
[01:57:29] a determinated material. So
[01:57:33] I would like to have a PMMA for example
[01:57:36] that can transmit 250 nanometers for
[01:57:40] example
[01:57:41] PMMA for 250 nometers. I'm going to call
[01:57:44] the epic members. Everyone, the 580, if
[01:57:47] somebody has a PMA that can go 250
[01:57:49] nometers transparent, please let us know
[01:57:51] because we want to contact the people in
[01:57:53] Italy and offer the power of Epic. I
[01:57:56] also was quite surprised that you said
[01:57:59] 50% of our products are custommade.
[01:58:03] that the reason for this is if your
[01:58:07] product is price based.
[01:58:11] The risk is there will be someone who
[01:58:15] will be cheaper than you because as you
[01:58:18] know now in the international market you
[01:58:22] can buy an LED everywhere from each
[01:58:26] brand. You can buy a driver, you can buy
[01:58:29] the wires and at the end your product
[01:58:34] has to be somehow different than the
[01:58:37] other products. But if you are using
[01:58:40] only standard products that are freely
[01:58:43] available on the market, it will be very
[01:58:46] easily for you for someone to copy your
[01:58:50] product because remember your first
[01:58:53] competitor is your customer.
[01:58:56] because your customer will buy something
[01:58:59] from you at the first project and then
[01:59:02] maybe starting from the second project
[01:59:05] he will run to someone else and say hey
[01:59:07] I'm buying this can you make it cheaper
[01:59:10] right so I repeat
[01:59:14] your first competitor is your customer
[01:59:17] itself so what you have to try is to
[01:59:21] customize some components of your
[01:59:24] fitting in order that you can recognize
[01:59:28] in Italy for example we say you know we
[01:59:31] have a lot of famous lighting
[01:59:33] manufacturer in Italy and as when you
[01:59:36] see their fittings you already recognize
[01:59:40] it from this tile so even if it is a
[01:59:43] street lighting and it's at 8 m or 10 m
[01:59:47] still you can recognize who made it or
[01:59:50] if we go on the indoor lighting or shop
[01:59:54] or light in building if you see
[01:59:57] something made by Artami or Egotini
[02:00:01] floss kibony
[02:00:04] that there's always things that you can
[02:00:06] recognize because there is that
[02:00:09] customization
[02:00:11] and the the first thing so or the last
[02:00:15] thing that you will see from a fitting
[02:00:17] is always the optical part. No, the
[02:00:20] optic is that what is outside
[02:00:23] and you have to try to bring your
[02:00:27] company philosophy inside the aesthetic
[02:00:30] of the product. We don't make only the
[02:00:34] optical development. We make also the
[02:00:36] technical development and we help in the
[02:00:40] customization of the aesthetical impact.
[02:00:44] Incredible. And I I think it the reason
[02:00:46] that you're here is also you're looking
[02:00:47] for for cooperations and collaborations.
[02:00:50] I had a comment in the chat. I don't
[02:00:52] know if was it was for me privately
[02:00:53] only. He said somebody I don't know if
[02:00:55] he wants to remain anonymous said even
[02:00:57] the power of FE cannot provide PMAs that
[02:00:59] that do not absorb 250 nanometers
[02:01:02] because there are physical laws there.
[02:01:04] But we will find a way. We'll find a
[02:01:06] way. But I want to go back to Paul from
[02:01:08] Volvo because in your requirements Paul
[02:01:10] you said that you need a less coating
[02:01:14] less UV coating. Could you elaborate on
[02:01:17] this because I think there could be here
[02:01:18] a nice potential cooperation.
[02:01:21] Uh but first I have seen that you
[02:01:23] produce a lot of uh component but I
[02:01:25] don't know if you produce also for
[02:01:26] automotive lighting industry or if it is
[02:01:28] only general lighting.
[02:01:30] We make from the bathroom illumination
[02:01:32] until the space station. We make we
[02:01:35] produce also for cars, motorcycles,
[02:01:38] airplanes,
[02:01:40] whatever you want.
[02:01:42] Yeah.
[02:01:42] Um we made a lot of headlights, back
[02:01:46] lights and I know your you are searching
[02:01:50] something that can replace the
[02:01:52] reflector. As my colleague already said
[02:01:56] from Sonics, you can work with the total
[02:01:59] internal reflection. But the problem is
[02:02:02] if you have a light guide that is 300 mm
[02:02:05] your loss will be very high. No
[02:02:08] because okay you have a total internal
[02:02:10] reflection but sooner or later this
[02:02:14] light will die you know so the energy
[02:02:17] will die. There are a couple of solution
[02:02:20] that could be used as for example the
[02:02:23] multi- coupling in light guides where
[02:02:27] you can spare a lot of efficiency that
[02:02:30] otherwise is lost. Personally we already
[02:02:35] tried this white reflective materials in
[02:02:39] order to make reflectors and recyclable
[02:02:43] materials. But as you already said, the
[02:02:47] efficiency is not very high. No, I know
[02:02:51] there are some suppliers who are
[02:02:53] claiming efficiencies of 90% but
[02:02:57] unfortunately in our test this was not
[02:03:00] more than 70 or 75%
[02:03:05] and I know exactly that this is not
[02:03:10] for the automotive market. This is not
[02:03:13] okay. And do you work in Italy
[02:03:14] especially with automotive lighting or
[02:03:16] with also other lighting supplier?
[02:03:18] So
[02:03:20] sorry repeat the question.
[02:03:21] In Italy you said you work with a lot of
[02:03:24] customer but do you work especially with
[02:03:25] automotive lighting Italy or with also
[02:03:28] other partners?
[02:03:30] Let me say like this. I don't like to
[02:03:33] make the lens for the Fiat Punto
[02:03:38] because it's just if something is simple
[02:03:42] and it's just a simple optic, they don't
[02:03:46] need us. So people like Fiat who are
[02:03:49] producing
[02:03:51] 100 million cars for the Fiat Punto,
[02:03:54] they are not interested in have a
[02:03:56] high-end solution. they will produce
[02:03:59] this lenses by their own. But if the
[02:04:03] required optics is something complex,
[02:04:07] something that they are not able to do
[02:04:10] for the material, for the surface
[02:04:12] structures, for the developing, then
[02:04:16] they will come to us. So
[02:04:19] let's say I prefer to make the headlamp
[02:04:22] of the Ferrari and not that of the Fiat
[02:04:24] Punto.
[02:04:25] Well, but the high-end S80 is very very
[02:04:28] high-end as well. Very reliable card.
[02:04:30] So, any any further questions,
[02:04:32] suggestions, room for cooperation here?
[02:04:36] I can still see that there is a
[02:04:38] challenge to go for low wavelengths. I
[02:04:40] still see there's a challenge for the
[02:04:41] lightweight. Any further question,
[02:04:44] comment before we go to the next
[02:04:45] speaker. Christian, we want to see you
[02:04:47] more often at our Epic meetings. You are
[02:04:49] epic. It was a great epic presentation.
[02:04:52] Let's move on. Let's go to the next one.
[02:04:54] Let's go to one of my favorite favorite
[02:04:56] companies in Epic. I cannot hide this
[02:04:58] mark. You know how much I like what
[02:04:59] you're doing especially when you can do
[02:05:01] the free force on both sides of the
[02:05:02] optics is ultra fantastic. Mark the
[02:05:06] floor and the attention of everyone goes
[02:05:08] to lees goes to you. Tell us how we can
[02:05:10] help you.
[02:05:11] Well, thank you Jose and thank you Sana.
[02:05:14] You are my friends I must say. So we're
[02:05:16] very happy to be a member of Epic and uh
[02:05:20] to assist whenever we have the time to
[02:05:23] these conferences. Okay. So um I will
[02:05:27] try to to start my presentation
[02:05:31] immediately.
[02:05:33] Uh where is it? Well should be here
[02:05:37] and then there it is.
[02:05:40] I think we go to the first one. Yeah.
[02:05:43] Okay. So uh so let me present uh our
[02:05:48] company first. So we launch UPMT Ultra
[02:05:51] Precision Machining Technologies. You
[02:05:54] could also say Ultra Precision Molding
[02:05:56] Technologies as you will see uh is a
[02:05:59] small startup company in the area of
[02:06:02] Leia in Belgium not very far in fact
[02:06:06] from Aran. So maybe we've been
[02:06:08] influenced by by these people. Uh so we
[02:06:11] are active in ultra precision machining
[02:06:14] and molding as I said and the goal of
[02:06:17] our company is to to solve some pro some
[02:06:21] existing problems we've seen in the past
[02:06:23] in in in let's say in the
[02:06:26] state-of-the-art solutions.
[02:06:28] uh so um here from left to right I show
[02:06:32] that our activity is
[02:06:35] first let's say based on ultra precision
[02:06:39] machining diamond turning I think many
[02:06:41] of you know what's what this is talking
[02:06:45] about uh and we have been doing this in
[02:06:48] the past a lot uh now this is going
[02:06:52] slower because we are concentrating on
[02:06:55] the two other uh branches
[02:06:58] Uh but uh in space mirrors uh we have a
[02:07:02] lot of experience and expertise and so
[02:07:06] we still do that. Uh but as I said well
[02:07:10] we try to solve some problems. So we the
[02:07:13] first problem we tried to solve was to
[02:07:16] machines machine lens arrays and all
[02:07:19] kinds of lens arrays very steep lens
[02:07:21] arrays in the optimal way. And we call
[02:07:24] that going back to the basics. We just
[02:07:27] machine every lens of an array as if it
[02:07:30] was a single lens. How can you do that?
[02:07:33] Well, we'll see that just in the in in
[02:07:34] in the next slide. And then um we have
[02:07:39] been thinking from the start what can we
[02:07:42] use that for ultimately. So we also uh
[02:07:46] developed a technology which is a
[02:07:48] molding technology making profit out of
[02:07:52] that unique capability of making those
[02:07:54] lens arrays. So we say we enable your
[02:07:58] next generation optronic products. In
[02:08:00] fact, a lot is going on on
[02:08:02] miniaturization and lens arrays for
[02:08:06] applications where the lens array is is
[02:08:08] is is itself a function, but also for
[02:08:11] let's say mass production where you want
[02:08:13] to parallelize a lot. And so let me go
[02:08:18] first to what we call DPI.
[02:08:22] Uh this is a patented technology. you I
[02:08:27] I can present it more easily uh by the
[02:08:31] picture or the the photo at the left.
[02:08:36] You see that an an add-on system on an
[02:08:38] ultra precision late and this add-on
[02:08:41] system allows us to uh shift the part
[02:08:44] with respect to the machine uh rotation
[02:08:48] axis. And why would we do that? As I
[02:08:51] said, we would we want to machine every
[02:08:53] lens uh as if it was a single part,
[02:08:57] single lens because this uh allows us to
[02:09:01] machine it by turning and obtain the
[02:09:04] ultimate quality of that lens surface.
[02:09:07] uh so in fact a very let's say basic
[02:09:10] function move the part to a known
[02:09:14] position but you have to move it of
[02:09:16] course in a very accurate way and this
[02:09:20] has to maintain ultra precision. So the
[02:09:24] complete system should be balanced. So
[02:09:27] we founded the company in 2013 2014
[02:09:32] developed this during two and a half
[02:09:34] years and did no business until that. So
[02:09:38] we we founded the company in fact to to
[02:09:40] to be able to to develop the technology
[02:09:44] and so we patented that by the end of
[02:09:48] 2015 and for the moment that technology
[02:09:51] is only available inside our company. uh
[02:09:54] it allows us to machine lens arrays up
[02:09:58] to a diameter of five of 200 mm and to
[02:10:02] put on that surface all kinds of arrays
[02:10:07] uh in in in the mo let's say machined in
[02:10:10] the most efficient way. So I've put the
[02:10:12] 100% fill factor which means that the
[02:10:15] lenses can be intersecting
[02:10:17] and this is with absolutely sharp edges
[02:10:21] like I say always it's like yeah when
[02:10:24] you try to focus on that you see that
[02:10:26] this is probably only one molecule
[02:10:29] uh so the roughness is very very low
[02:10:32] like for let's say uh on axis diameter
[02:10:35] turning form accuracy also can be very
[02:10:38] very low and so all kinds of shapes Not
[02:10:42] meta lenses of course but all kinds of
[02:10:44] shapes that can be turned or free from
[02:10:48] turned fidials we machine together in
[02:10:51] the same setup.
[02:10:53] Uh the applications for these metal
[02:10:56] parts that we deliver to our customers
[02:10:58] are uh injection modeling, polymer on
[02:11:01] glass, wafer level optics, roll to roll
[02:11:04] or roll to plate and you will see we are
[02:11:06] member of fabulous the European project
[02:11:10] for free form uh lens arrays. So
[02:11:14] everybody knows automotive and consumer
[02:11:17] are the markets for this.
[02:11:21] Then the second uh technology we develop
[02:11:26] is what we call hi-fi optics. It means
[02:11:29] high fidelity optics. So it's the goal
[02:11:31] is to uh to to replicate optics uh
[02:11:37] thermoplastic optics more accurately
[02:11:39] than you would currently do with
[02:11:42] injection molding which is a big
[02:11:43] statement of course. But imagine that
[02:11:46] injection molding has also its
[02:11:48] limitations with while that's maybe hard
[02:11:51] to hear but um when you want to make
[02:11:55] very thick parts and we heard that uh
[02:11:58] just recently it's difficult to to um to
[02:12:04] counteract the uh shrinkage. So the sink
[02:12:09] mark as they call it. While when you
[02:12:12] want to make very thin parts, you also
[02:12:14] have limitations to the thick the the
[02:12:17] the section and that is where we have de
[02:12:21] developed our technologies. So our
[02:12:24] technology is making use of course of
[02:12:26] the other technology for making a
[02:12:28] monolithic mold. So I've shown that a
[02:12:31] bit to the right. So you have the first
[02:12:34] column on the left side which shows
[02:12:38] thick lenses that are molded in uh a
[02:12:42] two-step process where the parts are
[02:12:45] first
[02:12:47] injection molded because they we need
[02:12:49] preforms and these preforms we want them
[02:12:52] to be let's say not accurate in form but
[02:12:55] we want them just to be uh with the
[02:12:58] right quantity of material and then we
[02:13:01] in in a second process which is a
[02:13:03] compression
[02:13:05] uh molding process. We call it an
[02:13:08] isothermal compression molding process.
[02:13:11] we will shape them to the final form and
[02:13:14] accuracy and lenses will come out here
[02:13:18] uh with a glass quality uh let's say
[02:13:22] something like 600 nanometers PV uh on
[02:13:26] on a lens that is maybe 8 mm or 10 mm
[02:13:29] thick and which has a diameter or 30 or
[02:13:32] 40 mm on the right side you see what we
[02:13:37] uh do mostly now is very thin lenses. Uh
[02:13:42] so I go back to the left side completely
[02:13:46] to the left side. You see there a stack
[02:13:48] of very thin lenses together with
[02:13:52] apertures and uh you see it's very very
[02:13:55] small and the goal is to to make a stack
[02:13:58] that is smaller than what's in your
[02:14:01] smartphone because they are sticking out
[02:14:03] of your smartphone. Is that a problem?
[02:14:05] No. But it's a problem if you want to
[02:14:07] use that for AR because in the AR you
[02:14:10] probably want to have that into your
[02:14:12] glasses. So that's what we are doing
[02:14:14] with this technology. Uh there's a lot
[02:14:17] to say about that. I can't go into the
[02:14:20] details because we don't have the time
[02:14:22] for that. uh because we have that uh ray
[02:14:27] technology, we have also been uh
[02:14:30] applying that for injection compression
[02:14:33] molding where the thickness is okay for
[02:14:35] that and we have also succeeded to do
[02:14:39] that on a wafer level and so that is
[02:14:42] very useful for lighter applications and
[02:14:45] and the kind
[02:14:48] finally I come to my last slide normally
[02:14:52] where is
[02:14:54] doesn't want to go.
[02:14:57] That's strange.
[02:15:00] Oh, here he is. So, the conclusions,
[02:15:03] what can we do for you and what can you
[02:15:05] do for us? Um, what what can we do? We
[02:15:09] can probably uh reduce your form and
[02:15:13] roughness errors for lens array
[02:15:16] applications. We can augment your design
[02:15:18] freedom certainly and we can compensate
[02:15:20] for replication process effects and very
[02:15:25] especially we can shorten your time to
[02:15:26] production. What can you do for us?
[02:15:29] Well, we we love to communicate to our
[02:15:33] customers about what we can do so that
[02:15:36] they take that into account and they
[02:15:40] because they consider this as new design
[02:15:42] freedom
[02:15:44] and then well it's important of course
[02:15:46] that they do that they submit their
[02:15:49] applications early in the design phase.
[02:15:53] Um I thank everybody for your attention.
[02:15:56] I thank particularly Epic of course and
[02:15:59] as you see we have uh we are
[02:16:01] participating to fabulous marvelous logo
[02:16:06] and and epic a little bit of publicity
[02:16:08] for you is welld deserved. Thank you.
[02:16:11] Thank you so much Mark. This is really
[02:16:14] heartwarming and it's so nice to see
[02:16:16] your unique technology. I have to say
[02:16:18] that UPMT
[02:16:20] uh together with the EVG uh CDA and S
[02:16:24] microoptics you are leading the new
[02:16:26] revolution in the European microoptics
[02:16:29] uh industry and uh it's really nice to
[02:16:32] see this u biggest change in um
[02:16:35] happening in the photonics this is like
[02:16:37] the biggest change that happened in the
[02:16:38] photonics in the last two decades we
[02:16:42] have here now in Europe the best uh
[02:16:45] microoptics manufacturer ers and it's
[02:16:48] really uh very interesting to to have
[02:16:51] you all part of this meeting today. So
[02:16:54] um after this mark so your question your
[02:16:58] answer to epic question was a little
[02:16:59] tricky. Yeah, I want to know what kind
[02:17:02] of collaborations you are looking for.
[02:17:04] What can the how can the these companies
[02:17:06] get reach out to you? What what task or
[02:17:10] what challenge can you give them? Let's
[02:17:11] say it's a bit difficult because u let's
[02:17:13] say we are um let's say we try to to to
[02:17:17] solve problems that are existing both at
[02:17:22] let's say the replication companies the
[02:17:25] production companies and uh we can help
[02:17:28] them with masters and things like that.
[02:17:30] with tools that are let's say super
[02:17:33] accurate uh fastly made um but we also
[02:17:37] have a lot of contact with the end users
[02:17:40] because um when you want to make the
[02:17:42] next generation of products then you
[02:17:45] have then then this is studied at the
[02:17:48] end user design office and they have to
[02:17:52] know about the technologies. So um so
[02:17:56] for us it's uh yeah but of course we are
[02:18:00] also interested into into the polymers
[02:18:04] you've seen we use all kinds of polymers
[02:18:06] so we have a brilliant uh let's say
[02:18:10] materials like a and ep and whatever uh
[02:18:14] but uh let's say um yeah we we're
[02:18:17] learning ourselves on that aspect a lot
[02:18:20] I know I'm in contact also with sabic u
[02:18:23] thanks to epic
[02:18:25] And uh so we have a lot of ideas of
[02:18:27] doing that but it's a little bit too
[02:18:29] detailed to do to to show that here.
[02:18:32] Of course we we understand that. Let me
[02:18:34] see if I have first a question for you.
[02:18:36] Uh please raise your hand if you have a
[02:18:38] question to UPMT.
[02:18:41] Um otherwise uh let me go to the Thank
[02:18:45] you so much again Mark for this very
[02:18:47] nice Yeah. I think Miguel you wanted to
[02:18:49] ask something.
[02:18:52] Was it hello? Yeah. Please unmute
[02:18:53] yourself and say hi. Tell us what you
[02:18:55] do.
[02:18:58] Hi. Well, that's uh I wasn't um willing
[02:19:02] to ask her any question, but uh as you
[02:19:06] give me the the opportunity to speak uh
[02:19:08] just say hello to everybody and um yeah
[02:19:12] uh we are working on um uh elastoic
[02:19:16] optical fibers and uh this is a project
[02:19:19] we started already almost one year ago
[02:19:22] and the key problem we've had uh by
[02:19:28] introducing uh polymers uh for research
[02:19:32] is the availability of the materials.
[02:19:34] It's a very very very difficult for us
[02:19:38] to get the right materials not because
[02:19:41] they do not exist but uh very often
[02:19:45] because uh a lot of companies they just
[02:19:50] want to sell uh huge amounts of
[02:19:52] materials. For example, we are working
[02:19:54] with TPUs
[02:19:56] which is a thermoplastic polyurethan and
[02:20:00] uh we've had several contacts in uh in
[02:20:04] different companies and one company just
[02:20:07] said okay yes we can provide you some
[02:20:09] TPU but uh uh the starting uh amount for
[02:20:15] selling is 30 tons whilst we just need a
[02:20:19] few kilograms.
[02:20:20] So yeah, this is uh an uh polymers is
[02:20:25] very interesting, a very big
[02:20:27] opportunities for uh making new
[02:20:29] components, but uh the availability of
[02:20:32] the materials is uh very often very
[02:20:35] difficult.
[02:20:38] Would you like to say something about
[02:20:39] that, Mark?
[02:20:43] No, not particularly. I I wanted just to
[02:20:46] mention because you asked me about let's
[02:20:48] say um the needs to to other partners.
[02:20:51] So
[02:20:52] yeah, I think we will need uh stronger
[02:20:55] partnerships in time to to to bring our
[02:20:58] technologies to industrialization and
[02:21:01] scaling up. That's for sure. That's for
[02:21:04] sure. But I think the first step is al
[02:21:06] always to to prove uh all the
[02:21:09] possibilities of the technology on a
[02:21:11] smaller scale. But then scaling up for a
[02:21:14] for a small company like ours is is is
[02:21:16] is a very big trick. It's a it's not
[02:21:20] easy.
[02:21:21] It's absolutely. But it's good that you
[02:21:23] are part of fabulous the European uh
[02:21:25] pilot line for free for micro optics
[02:21:28] manufacturing. And uh this is one of the
[02:21:30] goals as well of this pilot line. um to
[02:21:33] know more about so I don't want to
[02:21:34] consume the time of the meeting speaking
[02:21:36] about on fabulous only but to know more
[02:21:38] about fabulous I put the link to the
[02:21:40] website and you can reach out to me uh
[02:21:42] and I can give you all the information
[02:21:44] on how to reach out to companies like
[02:21:46] UPMT uh that are partners of Fabulous
[02:21:49] and how to reach out to the pilot line
[02:21:51] the goal is to
[02:21:57] we may have some sound problems with
[02:21:59] Sana I think it's okay but he was saying
[02:22:01] that the goal is to enable pilot
[02:22:03] production. So what we are saying here
[02:22:04] is that there is money from the European
[02:22:06] Commission to access the technology of
[02:22:08] SUS micro optics or UPMT vans of I think
[02:22:12] we have your sound back Sana.
[02:22:14] Oh great thank you. Yes I was saying
[02:22:18] that we want to centralize this free for
[02:22:20] micro optics manu manufacturing and when
[02:22:23] you want to go uh toward this we have
[02:22:25] six end users including from the
[02:22:27] automotive industry. So please let me
[02:22:29] know how we can put you in contact with
[02:22:31] the uh with the with this pilot line. So
[02:22:35] um let me see if you have if you don't
[02:22:37] have more more questions then I am very
[02:22:40] very happy to be moving to the next uh
[02:22:43] talk from Vajim. I am it's so nice to
[02:22:46] have you here. Thank you so much for
[02:22:48] joining this online technology meeting.
[02:22:51] James please unmute.
[02:22:54] I'm so looking forward to your talk.
[02:22:56] James,
[02:22:58] thank you. Good a good morning from
[02:23:02] Oregon, but uh good afternoon to all of
[02:23:05] you. Um I'd like to uh thank Epic for
[02:23:09] inviting me today. Um I'm going to talk
[02:23:12] a little bit about free form gradient
[02:23:15] index optics. Uh my name is Jim Field.
[02:23:18] Uh you can see my email below, but we're
[02:23:21] in uh in Oregon uh which is probably not
[02:23:24] known for optics uh but we are known for
[02:23:27] printing. Um we've created a a process
[02:23:31] to of optically engineered um feed
[02:23:35] stocks using nanoparticles and high and
[02:23:38] low index um inks uh to inkjet print um
[02:23:44] uh gradient index optics that allow us
[02:23:48] to tune and sculpture the light through
[02:23:51] the optics u versus sculpturing it using
[02:23:55] the surface of the optics. We've created
[02:23:57] a whole process so we can design using
[02:24:01] uh plug-in tools for Zmax and code five.
[02:24:04] Uh we can do both onaxis and offaxis and
[02:24:08] and free form gradients of the optics
[02:24:11] itself. Um and we've created a suite of
[02:24:15] metrology tools uh within the company.
[02:24:18] Um there are 25 of us. So, we're
[02:24:20] probably the smallest toh present here
[02:24:22] today, uh, just like Mark. U, but we've
[02:24:25] created a a process to create these
[02:24:27] optics. What does Grin do for you and
[02:24:30] what does the sculpting of the light uh
[02:24:32] allow you to do? It allows you to get
[02:24:35] optical power um without using surface
[02:24:38] features for those. Um, it allows you to
[02:24:40] correct for geometric aberrations and
[02:24:43] chromatic aberrations. um using the the
[02:24:46] differentials in the materials and the
[02:24:48] concentration of the nano composits that
[02:24:50] we use um to create grin. It allows
[02:24:54] optical designers added degrees of
[02:24:57] freedom to improve the op optical
[02:24:59] performance and also reduce the lens
[02:25:02] count um by combining l two lenses into
[02:25:06] one. Um we can use inkjet printing to
[02:25:10] create aperture stops, fiducial marks,
[02:25:14] um also alignment features within the
[02:25:16] optics.
[02:25:19] Again, it's a full process. We can go
[02:25:21] from design to creating the um ondemand
[02:25:26] inks that we need for your optics,
[02:25:30] loading an inkjet printer. We have
[02:25:32] highlevel diffusion masks um that allow
[02:25:35] us to get good concentrations in quality
[02:25:38] of the um uh the optics we make. Um and
[02:25:42] we can print both 3D and free form um
[02:25:45] grin optics.
[02:25:48] The increased freedom for the optical
[02:25:50] designers allow you to use larger order
[02:25:54] cross terms like R and Z, reduce optical
[02:25:58] aberrations like coma, tilt and
[02:26:00] spherical aberrations. So it gives you
[02:26:03] again um some design freedom that you
[02:26:06] haven't had with trai traditional
[02:26:08] optics. You can see us correcting here
[02:26:11] for some chro chromatic aberrations. Um
[02:26:15] using the the um uh both the the the
[02:26:19] nano composite materials and the inks
[02:26:22] themselves in the high and low index to
[02:26:24] to do those corrections. So we we can uh
[02:26:29] uh create very interesting optics um
[02:26:33] using this uh capability.
[02:26:36] Today we're um we can produce 125
[02:26:40] millimeter optics per hour on uh inkjet
[02:26:44] systems. Um what this allows us to do is
[02:26:48] leverage uh the billions of dollars that
[02:26:51] have been spent for inkjet heads and
[02:26:53] inkjet systems in the in the um in the
[02:26:56] world. Our system has six channels so
[02:27:00] six optical inks can be fed
[02:27:02] simultaneously.
[02:27:03] Um we do droplet monitoring and we have
[02:27:06] process control to control our gradients
[02:27:09] and ensure that we have both the right
[02:27:12] high and low index gradients as we print
[02:27:15] um and also to verify that the optics
[02:27:18] that we're print in that gradient um are
[02:27:21] correct.
[02:27:24] These are just some of the examples that
[02:27:26] you'll see um that we've printed. Um we
[02:27:29] started the company in 2013. Uh there
[02:27:32] are 25 of us uh working. We have
[02:27:35] chemists on staff which isn't um totally
[02:27:38] normal for a optics company, optical
[02:27:41] designers. And we have um uh people come
[02:27:45] who are are um alumni from uh Hulet
[02:27:48] Packard's print division um that are are
[02:27:52] part of our staff. So that's why you're
[02:27:54] seeing the quality that you see here. a
[02:27:56] variety of lens arrays, a phase
[02:27:59] corrector plate that you'll see here.
[02:28:03] Um, also able to print directly on chip
[02:28:08] scale packaging. Um, this is an
[02:28:10] application that is starting to gain
[02:28:13] some traction with us. Also, we've
[02:28:16] created uh flat Alvarez lenses. We can
[02:28:20] print baffles um in your optics so that
[02:28:23] stray light doesn't interfere um with
[02:28:26] the other optical channels. We've de
[02:28:28] developed uh Fresnel barrel lenses and
[02:28:32] again a lot of planer optical arrays um
[02:28:35] are are part of their portfolio. One of
[02:28:38] the things we're proudest of is is our
[02:28:41] ability to create free form gradient
[02:28:43] patterns. Um this is a um a grin lens
[02:28:47] that is a phase corrector plate for
[02:28:50] optical mirrors. Um so we can print this
[02:28:54] um by just getting the zerni polomials
[02:28:56] from you on the corrections that need to
[02:28:58] be made um in the phase corrector print
[02:29:02] this and you can put it in between the
[02:29:05] mirror um and the um imaging device to
[02:29:08] to do that phase correction. Um our
[02:29:11] print volume is such that we can print u
[02:29:14] optics as large as one meter by one
[02:29:17] meter. Um but we've also printed very
[02:29:20] small micro optics down to about um 60
[02:29:24] uh microns.
[02:29:28] And the obvious questions is what can
[02:29:31] you do for us and what can we do for you
[02:29:34] on our side? Um if you want to entertain
[02:29:38] u a grin optics design and you haven't
[02:29:40] used grin before uh please uh get in
[02:29:43] touch with us. Um we can turn around
[02:29:46] optics very quickly. So from a a design
[02:29:49] standpoint you can try different uh
[02:29:52] avenues to um see what works and what
[02:29:55] doesn't. Um, and again, uh, we're a
[02:29:58] young company and so we're always
[02:30:00] looking at, um, uh, new features to
[02:30:03] improve ourselves like high index
[02:30:05] polymers. We're looking for partners for
[02:30:07] that and I've already spoken to numerous
[02:30:10] guys who are on the, um, uh, the DES
[02:30:14] today. Um, we're looking for high volume
[02:30:17] inkjet printers because a 100 parts per
[02:30:19] hour is nice, but what our customers
[02:30:21] would like is thousands of parts per
[02:30:24] hour. and then distribution and service
[02:30:26] bureau. Uh we are going to be opening up
[02:30:29] service bureaus around the country to do
[02:30:31] this kind of printing and we'd love to
[02:30:33] have um uh discussions with that with
[02:30:36] that. Thank you very much and I
[02:30:38] thank you very much James. Fantastic.
[02:30:40] And look 5:30 we always finish on time.
[02:30:43] The question is very very clearly
[02:30:45] answered and I think one of your future
[02:30:47] customers is the person who I want to
[02:30:50] give the floor to. We have a question
[02:30:52] from wave optics areny tell me
[02:30:57] uh just a couple of technical questions.
[02:30:59] So in terms of your gradients and
[02:31:02] refractive index what kind of refractive
[02:31:04] index you are using right now with those
[02:31:07] polymers and in terms of gradients what
[02:31:11] kind of spatial control of those
[02:31:13] gradients you can achieve. So, so we
[02:31:16] have um uh the high the low index inks
[02:31:21] we go down to
[02:31:23] right around 1.1 high index inks we're
[02:31:26] in the one6 um we're looking at going a
[02:31:30] little bit higher and and we have some
[02:31:32] developments in that area. Um and then
[02:31:36] we have very good spatial control. So
[02:31:38] they're micron droplets um but with nano
[02:31:43] particles in there. So we we control
[02:31:45] them spatially uh very well and part of
[02:31:49] that is the the the chemistry we use so
[02:31:52] that we um uh control where those nano
[02:31:56] particles and the concentration of those
[02:31:58] nano particles um through liant
[02:32:01] chemistry.
[02:32:02] Some of the liant chemistry is to keep
[02:32:04] the nanop particles separated um at a at
[02:32:07] a distance and part of the liant
[02:32:09] chemistry is to embed them in the
[02:32:11] monomer so that they don't move. um as
[02:32:14] we print
[02:32:15] green optics has fantastic optics. I
[02:32:18] think there is obviously a room for
[02:32:19] cooperation here. The presentation was
[02:32:21] extremely clear. I think I'm going to go
[02:32:23] now to give the final remarks and I
[02:32:26] decide to choose for every meeting a
[02:32:27] person to give the final remarks. For
[02:32:29] this one, Andreas from IMT, you have the
[02:32:32] chance to sending us off the way that
[02:32:34] Epic loves it. Tell us what kind of
[02:32:37] cooperations, what kind of future we
[02:32:39] have for IM Techch cooperating with the
[02:32:41] members today. Uh thanks, thanks for um
[02:32:44] this honor to give the fine remark. Um
[02:32:47] yeah, I did already um um send some
[02:32:50] private messages to to some people here
[02:32:53] to some companies um who are you know
[02:32:56] potential customers from us and maybe um
[02:32:59] customers um who we can support. Um I'm
[02:33:03] Graitech basically is um the the market
[02:33:06] leader in in in diamond turning machine
[02:33:08] tools. So this is what we do. So
[02:33:10] whenever you have an in-house optics
[02:33:12] production and um that that could mean
[02:33:16] that um that diamond turning is is a way
[02:33:20] to do this and um and uh I'd like to
[02:33:24] support. So that's that's all I want to
[02:33:26] say. So diamond turning this is what we
[02:33:29] do and uh optics manufacturing and some
[02:33:32] of you may know us already some of you
[02:33:35] are customers from us and uh maybe I can
[02:33:38] I can start discussions with uh many
[02:33:40] other
[02:33:41] I hope you do and you know I also have
[02:33:43] something to say which is that I learned
[02:33:45] a lot of this meeting and basically I
[02:33:46] see three main challenges for this
[02:33:48] community. The first one wave optics
[02:33:50] told us they are looking for a for
[02:33:52] molded optics to refractive in higher
[02:33:54] 1.7. Let's find out for them. Volvo, you
[02:33:57] were the star. Paul, you were the star
[02:33:58] of today. They told us about more
[02:34:00] sustainable material for recycling, less
[02:34:02] coating. They want to get rid of
[02:34:03] metalization, better transmittance,
[02:34:05] reflectivity, homogenity, weight
[02:34:08] reduction. I highlighted that we need to
[02:34:09] address that. And had first ever Epic
[02:34:11] meeting manufacturing process, the world
[02:34:14] loves it. I want to visit. We're going
[02:34:16] to go very soon to to visit you. And you
[02:34:18] were looking for a PMA like polymer. It
[02:34:21] doesn't exist. We know the physics. PMMA
[02:34:23] like polymer for transparency at 250
[02:34:26] nanometers. Let's address those
[02:34:28] challenges. There are lots of business
[02:34:30] opportunities. Is 534, 4 minutes late.
[02:34:32] I'm very sorry, but it was another epic
[02:34:34] meeting. On Wednesday, a specialty
[02:34:36] optical fiber. Until then, keep being
[02:34:38] epic. See you soon. Bye-bye.
[02:34:40] See you everybody. Thank you so much.
[02:34:42] Bye.