# EPIC Online Technology Meeting on Co-packaged Optics (in cooperation with COBO & EA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5om90Td8nCo

[00:00] good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.
[00:03] how's everyone doing River is okay full of fun it is happy I don't see energy today here what's going on.
[00:10] thank you very much for joining a very special edition of the online technology meetings today we talk about coke package optics so it's a great day because her companies from all over the world from the US all the way to Asia.
[00:21] we want to establish a way of working together today is the number 25 26 or they online technology meetings so I'm gonna show you show you how well it looks from the very beginning so when we start in the first of April and I thought we were completely crazy haven't organized 39 me piece in about three months but we are managing we are surviving we're looking great doc Adonis is full of families today and we also are getting a lot of fantastic feedback from many many of you so put that from the bottom of her heart we really.
[01:01] appreciate how much you are getting out of this online technology meetings and we are getting crazier and crazier every day.
[01:08] so crazy that now colors came up with the idea or doing this for 24 hours.
[01:13] so on the 24th of June I am going to be 24 hours in a row non-stop I'm totally nuts.
[01:21] 24 hours talking about photonics with speakers we're gonna start with speakers in New Zealand south and photonics in New Zealand and we're gonna finish in California talking to Brandon Collins from lumen.
[01:32] hey I'm Brad necklace from Microsoft so talked of people 24 hours the best speakers we could find in every country in the world and also I wanted to remind for those of you who have no idea what's going on with the standards now in datacom telecom on the 1st of July I'm gonna sit down with David Lowe and joined ambrosia and we're gonna go through all the different standards being developed for IT Polly especially on the billion 400 G but also talking.
[02:01] about the automotive sector we really want to line up with her two billion.
[02:03] what is going on with the standards?
[02:06] because maybe you are almost as lost as I am.
[02:08] I also would like to thank all the 500 I seek.
[02:13] the for all members of our bill 21 semiconductor microwave photonics I and the skyline optics send the membership form last weekend.
[02:21] it was a busy weekend for me thank you very much for joining attic.
[02:25] we keep growing we cannot do this without the support of the industry thank you so so much.
[02:31] I would like to remind all of you that you all have access to a long list of micro reports.
[02:34] so all of you please go from time to time to the EPI website.
[02:38] if you're not big member you can download 17,000 market data from there.
[02:44] I would like to highlight for example had the maca Reaper from Joe long photonic into the circuit special focus on silicon photonics.
[02:50] and my favorite part of the micro reports is going to take they take one with the Intel transceivers and they open it up and they look at every single components inside and who is the vendor for each component so I really like that that particular part of the report so.
[03:03] Just have a look at those reports and you cannot find anything there.
[03:06] Contact Ana, she has read all of them, she has memorized them, so she will tell you exactly where to find each.
[03:11] I know everyone would be 17,000 bill grabs.
[03:15] Apart from that, I would like today to tell you, I'm extremely happy because anomie have been working already for four years non-stop on bringing together the key companies in packaging photonics in Europe, especially for the data come market.
[03:26] And when we join forces with Kabul and they told us the kind of things they were doing, we realized that we'll actually doing the same thing.
[03:34] Later on, we made the estimate alliance between us, let's work together and is the result of a lot of conference calls, a lot of emails, a lot of discussions.
[03:40] Her headache sometimes we fight and we will fight the way we like each other, so we always end up with a smile.
[03:46] She ended with a beer and ended with a normal coholic beer.
[03:51] Today I would like to also thank the sponsors of the epic meeting.
[03:54] We have accessories that make fantastic micro optics for any or any market from the automotive or gas sensors of flow.
[04:04] sensors but also great micro optics for data con telecom sector.
[04:06] Let's also thank BDT bilities gamma for key partners that we have for the design of prototyping of silicon photonics.
[04:13] They have a really really great technology in the thickest oy4 very very low losses sous micro optics.
[04:19] I love those micro tech they are the wafer level optics panel whenever you need to go to high quality micro optics for telecon sector.
[04:26] And here also one of our key partners in picks up they are providing demographics for the coat pocket technology of silicon photonics.
[04:35] So it is great to have them with us.
[04:37] Octave weight or great software solutions in the simulation design an optimization of Intel interconnects in photonic devices.
[04:45] And finally if I contact you ever go to Bremen go around go to aking a beautiful area outside Bremen and visit the floor plan is amazing.
[04:57] You can see all the cycle tech machines they're doing go to the best automation for the packaging and tasting of photonic devices from
[05:04] transceivers which I come all the way to Lydell any photonic device they can make.
[05:08] our process automated and a beautiful machine for doing the testing and volume production.
[05:13] with this I would like to give the floor to the most to the smartest the smartest person in every room and I wanted what's in the military.
[05:22] thank you very much gossip or you're always nice introductions.
[05:28] yes I hope you are as excited as I am today.
[05:31] I cannot wait to see what crying up collaborations we get to take from this meeting.
[05:34] it is we have an amazing list of companies that are going to present.
[05:37] aim Peter O'Brien from Tina entertained from five contain Scott from Intel.
[05:46] so this is going to be a fantastic day but well these are not they they only companies that are in the room but we have an entire representation of the supply chain a host you can put the next slide.
[06:03] yes here because the goal is to make a
[06:06] collaboration between the companies attending this meeting and for this what we need is a very good real intention.
[06:13] and third of the entire supply chain I would like to start with the Association say like the consortium for onboard optics the optical interworld internetworking a forum and the Ethernet Alliance for helping us to bring this a list of a this list of end-users and vertically integrated and networking solutions companies such as a Facebook a fiscal a foodie hora de itachi high tech Intel Nokia because what we want is to know their challenges but how we can help them a how this a fantastic and supply chain in photonics can help them in their challenges with a connectors with transceivers this wine we have here a company's doing a connector scaling such as us connect also doing transceivers I
[07:06] some sicko yeah but we also have photonics and Nokia in patan so we have a company's doing a WDM and switches and models such as iPhone X.
[07:17] and it's not only a they are going to help end users with the challenges but at the same time they are going to provide challenges for the other levels of the supply chain that we have here.
[07:29] for example for the packaging and assembly testing it will split between the companies doing equipment but also the company's doing processes and services such as work for the Queen man ficon them we have eye fatigue Teledyne high side many companies and also processing services such as offered I see them icon photonics Infotech BTP many others and also well this is a very nice very nice level of the supply chain the company's doing photonic integrated circuits.
[07:58] so we have the pond'rous silicon photonics fundus but also indium phosphide in foundry services and design and rest services and well also for
[08:08] micro optics we have companies doing a wafer level optic production equipment.
[08:13] but also we have other company is doing way for lemon optics prototype or a production and many companies doing market intelligence and semiconductor companies and when to finalize yes to highlight the European project such as fashion that is building a new infrastructure for a metro network that starts with the packaging of a pixel with silicon photonics it but also the pine on lines and photo needs such as picks up for a assembly and testing and also aim also follows a for M for freeform optics micro optics and that's it just did I forget something Jose.
[08:53] nothing you were perfect you were spotless smoothness is so great to work with an an applause for this work is so great for epic she's bringing the whole European industry she's actually the
[09:10] angle mind underneath this logo you have here the peaks upload is bringing all the different companies in packaging photonics.
[09:16] I have one more thing to say which is today we are life in Duty open every day we're live in YouTube and gotten use to my YouTube life now.
[09:25] so for the people following this meeting in YouTube you want to contact any of the speakers today and look at the principal participant list that we have today any of the participants today you want to contact any link send me an email hospital photo at epic - a SOCOM.
[09:40] hosted photo at epic - a saccade calm and I will introduce you to any of the participants so they look what I'm offering here and discuss all also valid for the zoom room.
[09:48] any of you you want to contact any of the participants disturb me lying and I will make sure I make that introduction because I love working I have no life my life is yours and with that I would like to get the ball rolling.
[10:01] less get the ball - who know what they are talking about imagine a me who'll I just talking I have a great great list to do speakers at especially I had the director or the biggest in the
[10:12] happen in iterative photonics in Europe.
[10:14] we have the picks up pile online opening.
[10:18] a new horizon of opportunities for all.
[10:22] the photonic companies in the world.
[10:24] I would like to hear more our picks up.
[10:30] thanks Jose and thanks Ana it's great to see you doing so much to try and keep us all together and hopefully we can see each other face to face soon.
[10:36] I look forward to that day immensely so you can see my screen okay.
[10:41] perfect thank you very much okay so I know we've only got six minutes and many of you are aware of picks up and what it's about.
[10:52] and I think it's important I make sure mention all our partners Tyndale managers picks up but we have many great partners and many of them here today so say I see see Wilfred is there some new partners have joined and many established partners and look this is really kind of a key viewgraph that I want to show because what we offer and
[11:14] picks up is a range of standardized packaging technologies and around fiber packaging and single fiber arrays and.
[11:23] but also more and more we're seeing now an interest in micro optics and and micro optics for free space applications.
[11:32] because and we're looking across many areas so communications obviously is an important aspect of the customer base that we work with and we're also starting to see interest in pluggable fiber connectors and I would say in the last year so picks up is running three years now and and we've got started to make it an offer of our packaging services in the last 18 months in the last year approximately we've seen a very significant growth in interest around micro optics and for for example edge coupling technology so moving away from bonded fiber arrays directly to de pick and as I say we see quite a bit of interest on integrating micro optics.
[12:15] answered a pick so and we're be that.
[12:18] silicon or indium phosphide or silicon nitride.
[12:21] and I believe one of the big problems with the fiber attachment is things like solder reflow compatibility.
[12:28] so and where the package and quite often people are considering this especially in the design of their product that quite often these components have to be put on a on a printed circuit board in a system and withstand very high temperatures in reflow so epoxy attached can be can be a real problem in that regard.
[12:47] that can be somewhat minimized this stress on the micro optics can be significantly less than a fiber and a large fiber.
[12:57] so integrating edge coupled optical fiber are sorry edge coupled micro optics and is something we started to work on and actually fight contact now are based in Cork there in our labs and that's that's a major project that we've started to develop and we already have some customers interested in that so the.
[13:15] The kind of the additional component is the the fiber or sorry the ribbon fiber connector for example.
[13:22] US connects of a very nice light prism technology and those others started to look at that so.
[13:27] Both for edge and grating colors we actually have now active commercial projects in that space and other areas that we've brought in and include photonic wire bonds and freeform micro optics using the the Vanguard process.
[13:42] So we've array of optical and electrical packaging processes and as I say we've covered a few projects in that space now with customers and I would say that the micro optics is a new area and for example silicon micro lens arrays and but it's definitely an area that's got a lot of interest and that also ties in with something we're developing because the idea of the pilot line is that it's sustainable after four years of funding from the European Commission so as I say we're in our third year and so next year we're basically finished you know from a
[14:16] funding perspective with the European Commission.
[14:18] what we're in a very strong position but not just from a financial point of view.
[14:22] we want to be technologically sustainable as well.
[14:25] so we're also now starting to introduce wafer level packaging processes and micro optics really is the way forward from an optical connectivity point of view.
[14:33] so that's that's an area I really want to stress that you know wafer level micro optic packaging and for pluggable connectors fiber connectors is an area we see great opportunity and and this is a nice example of kind of a physical demonstration of those different types of technologies.
[14:50] so and this is a silicon photonic chip air from iMac.
[14:54] what we're also working with foundries around the world.
[14:58] we're starting to collaborate now quite closely with an photonics in the US and and again we have an array of design rules for all for electrical and optical and we're just starting to introduce some very new design rules for micro optic connection our packaging to the edge facet with a very nice.
[15:17] technology demonstrator around design rules for edge coupling.
[15:20] of micro optics to the pic but also laser integration.
[15:26] so hybrid laser integration and we're now starting to work on flip chip integration of lasers.
[15:30] pics as well so again it's a process we're starting to standardize but these what you see here now are already available flip chip of electronics drivers and amplifiers and also then you can see and these are four pluggable and and micro lens arrays on grading couplers.
[15:46] so both edge and grating and we've demonstrated pluggable connectors of fiber connectors to those pics and then obviously all the different types of wire bonding and interposers as well.
[16:00] so these are all available and picks up there's a menu there are a gateway then and supports that and this is just a nice example of a full demonstrator.
[16:09] so again you can see at the center of that the actual silicon photonics device but then the or F the DC and the optics are connected via a pluggable connector so.
[16:18] it speaks to the kind of work that Kobo is pushing forward.
[16:25] so as I say for anyone interested we have a single point of contact and we have a menu of technologies adding to that menu continuously.
[16:32] and the bigger we're pushing now is pluggable micro optics at wafer level packaging and we're a global pilot line even though we're funded by the European Commission.
[16:41] and just this just the show the companies will work with throughout the world we've quite a few in Europe quite a few in the US and as I say we've quite a few companies now interested in the whole micro optic integration on pig.
[16:50] so I think that's about six minutes or so.
[16:54] so I don't know if there's any questions or if the questions are for later Jose.
[16:57] I think of it won't be that it's me thank you very much Peter a great presentation as always.
[17:04] we have questions but before this question what would you say that are the challenges that now you are facing facing for in in order to scale up the volume of packages okay.
[17:19] So that kind of speaks to the way we've organised picks up.
[17:23] So essentially the way it picks up works is we have research or research institutes and we have our industrial partners.
[17:29] So if I go back to this view graph here and so we've got some number of industrial partners who take the scale up.
[17:37] So we're working with them to standardize the processes and to enable them to learn the the kind of new processes we've developed so it could be transferred.
[17:43] So really the issue we face or the opportunity those companies face is that they can grow.
[17:50] So some of those companies like Fix and Techno base have received quite significant investments recently to purchase more equipment to increase their you know capacity.
[17:59] So we will continue as I said to develop the technology sustainability and and then working with our partners.
[18:06] So the objective is is not that Tyndall will become a volume packaging partner.
[18:11] No, our job is to kind of refine, standardize and implement new technologies and then transfer them to our industrial partners.
[18:18] The challenge for scale-up as you
[18:20] ask is that those partners increase their capacity and our job is to help them for example to help raise new phones etc those kind of things so then what will you say for them for the companies doing automation Mateen same when would you say that are they main challenges in order to ultimate eyes the process it would be five in alignment in Peaks for example well if you look at many of the applications that we see emerging like in quantum sensing Diagnostics fiber attach is not the big opportunity it's actually free space so for medical diagnostics for and for example this company here on Doc's you may never have heard of them and they're one of the world's largest suppliers of kovat 19 and different types of biosensors and very big in veterinary health care so you know those types of biosensors are a growing market obviously they don't new acquire fiber attach micro optics micro optics is really a very large growing opportunity no question about it yeah we agree on
[19:22] that as well okay so we have a question here from Mac I guess mark from favority.
[19:29] I said we can hear me well with my original e from the Bronx so I I definitely project Peter.
[19:38] a couple questions up you advertise on your website that you're trying to get away from the valley of death and I'm just wondering if if you're PPP your private public partnership was the exception in terms of getting or will be the exception in terms of getting to more companies to market or is it the general time-sink that I usually see with these sorts of entities and also why are you concentrating on Cobo when this is a this is something I assume the topic was called package optics and what do you see as the future for that because I'm terribly pessimistic on Co packaged optics so I'm wondering wondering if you
[20:23] could convince me otherwise
[20:26] well um specifically Co package optics
[20:29] so it you know it the definition might
[20:33] vary across you know different suppose
[20:36] people involved in the area well no
[20:39] question about it
[20:39] and micro optic integration in the
[20:42] package and a move away from direct
[20:44] fiber bonding for example we absolutely
[20:47] see a great interest in that we've
[20:49] actually had companies come in on large
[20:51] companies multinationals come in and we
[20:54] very quickly convinced them that the
[20:56] micro optic approach is the way to go
[20:58] and they can see the merits of that it's
[21:00] more approachable to more amenable to
[21:02] wait for scaled packaging so no doubt
[21:05] about that
[21:05] and co packaging of electronics with
[21:08] photonics it's it's it's it's
[21:10] unquestionably and a way forward and
[21:12] it's also supports wafer level packaging
[21:16] so you know the interpretation of Co
[21:19] packaging it can vary but no from where
[21:22] we see it micro optic integration for
[21:24] pluggable and for free space so if you
[21:27] don't have your fiber there it's free
[21:28] space so for diagnostics and for
[21:31] pluggable fiber connectors and also toko
[21:33] packaging of electronics no question
[21:36] there's opportunities there and they're
[21:38] all supported by wafer level packaging
[21:40] so that's really you know and where we
[21:42] see the opportunity and we you know the
[21:44] users speak and they support us in that
[21:47] we can see not a big market
[21:49] opportunities as far as sustainability
[21:51] and of
[21:52] valley of death um well it's always
[21:54] going to be a challenge to transition
[21:56] what I would say is that the customers
[21:58] we see typically are like again our
[22:00] focus from the European Commission
[22:02] perspective as being very strongly in
[22:04] SMS so we've started to break sound it's
[22:07] never it's you're never going to fully
[22:08] bridge it but it's been reasonably
[22:10] successful
[22:11] we're sustainable we're commercially and
[22:12] economically sustainable and and but
[22:16] there's definitely opportunities for
[22:17] others to kind of move in and support it
[22:19] but you know it's been quite successful
[22:20] so far and and the companies we've
[22:23] worked with they struggle to kind of
[22:25] like they you know one of the big issues
[22:27] we also say is the chip supply so what
[22:30] often we're not seeing enough chips
[22:31] coming true so at the volume and
[22:33] capacity of the foundries to be able to
[22:35] deliver on yields reliability and we
[22:38] don't always see the enough chips coming
[22:40] true and I think some of the packaging
[22:41] industry partners the pure-play
[22:43] packaging companies have concerns that
[22:45] are the volume is going to be there when
[22:46] they gear up to be able to package all
[22:48] of these devices hey Peter so in Peaks
[22:52] up we're receiving a lot of demand for
[22:54] packaging photo negativity circuits
[22:56] especially on silicon photonics now
[22:58] there is a big debate whether we should
[23:01] do the vertical coupling or we should go
[23:03] in parallel where do you stand on this
[23:06] and what do you think are the advantages
[23:07] and disadvantages well if you mean
[23:10] vertical and grating for example is
[23:13] grating an edge edge has many benefits
[23:15] and you know mode size is and
[23:18] polarization and spectral dependence
[23:21] whoever m4 from a manufacturing point of
[23:24] view grading coupling is ideal because
[23:25] it's more amenable to wafer level
[23:28] whereas you have to separate and dice
[23:30] and and and separate the devices so it
[23:35] really depends on the application and
[23:36] but definitely you know we we see about
[23:41] about 75% of people are more interested
[23:44] in the edge coupling as opposed to
[23:45] grating and that's principally driven by
[23:47] the specifications of the technologies
[23:49] you know grating has has more
[23:50] limitations yeah today it does depend on
[23:54] the application 100% today we have a
[23:56] filter data con Telecom here I want to
[23:58] walk to one of the success stories that
[24:00] we have ended up on this we have Seco
[24:02] yeah in the room marker thank you very
[24:03] much for joining this this view
[24:05] full afternoon militia in the
[24:06] Netherlands what do you stand on this
[24:08] Sakuya is going with the success stories
[24:11] of silicon photonics transceivers a what
[24:13] do you stand on the way to package
[24:15] silicon photonics well carotene couplers
[24:18] versus bad joint hello first of all to
[24:22] to everybody thank you all there for
[24:24] this great meeting I'm very glad to join
[24:27] this and I see Korea we mostly work with
[24:30] grating Kapler but we look at all
[24:33] possible technology and packaging the
[24:36] opportunity of course as as Peter said
[24:38] it depends more on standards so each
[24:41] coupling as a broadband spectrum for for
[24:44] coupling as less problem on polarization
[24:47] but still a lot can be done by grading
[24:49] table so at the moment we look more to
[24:51] grading table I know a success story
[24:54] that we have in Europe is HHI doing the
[24:57] indium phosphide manufacturing for many
[24:59] many many customers I cannot even
[25:01] mention them but in indium phosphide
[25:03] there is no much of a choice we actually
[25:05] always do the edge coupling a have you
[25:08] seen this as a limiting factor for a new
[25:10] phosphide based transceivers going into
[25:12] the last word in production no I don't
[25:15] think so so the actually it's not public
[25:18] but we have done also some circular
[25:21] gratings for surface coupling into
[25:22] indium phosphide because one of us
[25:24] wanted to have that I personally believe
[25:28] much more in edge coupling simply
[25:29] because the fibre to the home industry
[25:31] was tends to low hundred modules in per
[25:37] year production volume shows us that
[25:39] they can be very cost effective at
[25:42] coupling geometries on an industrial
[25:45] scale so and my understanding especially
[25:48] in high-end to talk a bit more about a
[25:51] tree sometimes you fight for every point
[25:54] one or point 2 DB and that's over 30 to
[25:57] 50 nanometer
[25:58] spectral range and then you are better
[26:00] off his edge coupling and padishah
[26:03] thank you very much Martin whenever I
[26:06] talk about packaging I need to speak to
[26:08] my friend Bob masks because he's been
[26:11] driving this industry for about two
[26:13] decades now and seeing what is happening
[26:14] every single trend about thank you very
[26:17] much for joining this Afton
[26:19] we have heard a bit of stories already
[26:21] so far what do you expect for a meeting
[26:23] ladies what I was looking for was to
[26:27] understand a bit more about surface
[26:29] mount components in the optics book it's
[26:34] been pushed for a long time lots and
[26:36] lots of manufacturers want the
[26:39] capability to use surface mount to mount
[26:41] the optics and that means usually
[26:43] detachable pigtails etcetera but we're
[26:47] not seeing much progress in that area to
[26:49] my knowledge at the moment which is a
[26:51] great shame
[26:53] okay so comb-overs actually plugging
[26:55] modules onto the board but they're not
[26:57] servicemen Peter mentioned earlier on
[26:59] there are issues with surviving the
[27:03] surface mount temperature profile etc
[27:05] but did some work that two or three
[27:08] years ago and that proved quite
[27:11] successful in fact back in 2002 company
[27:16] called Corona systems unfortunately
[27:18] developed a 40 gig surface mount
[27:21] transceiver and that was using an empty
[27:25] connector proton and that was more than
[27:27] washable and surface mount convertible
[27:30] that never came back again but that was
[27:33] a good example of what you can do and
[27:35] just cut some circle people talking
[27:37] about edge connections and grating
[27:39] papers
[27:40] the other thing I'm looking for is
[27:42] somebody to come up with the evanescent
[27:45] couplers and IBM bro Mont did some work
[27:48] in that area and I think I've described
[27:50] also have been working on their bed area
[27:52] and that provides an excellent coplanar
[27:55] coupling mechanism but potentially a
[27:59] detachable connector as well so I'd like
[28:01] to see some more progress in the donor
[28:02] ok yeah it is ok because I got Dave from
[28:05] embryonic snotting alone to everything
[28:07] yourself like oh my god he's speaking
[28:09] the truth but especially not along when
[28:10] you weren't measuring the opto scribe
[28:12] approach for evanescence are you working
[28:13] on something related I'm from embryonic
[28:16] yes so works you just we've been
[28:18] discussing if you use this exact problem
[28:20] with the prescriber easily which is
[28:22] you're also involved in picks up so I'm
[28:24] sure Peter can talk more and in detail
[28:26] what the cable is not yeah it's very
[28:28] interesting what he's saying I know I
[28:29] give you the mic what December ionics
[28:31] and what do you expect from this meeting
[28:32] so actually we are currently working on
[28:34] a cup packaging project which we just
[28:36] kicked off with iMac it's prickly being
[28:39] funded by the European Space Agency
[28:41] looking at how we can reduce high-speed
[28:43] serial interconnects power requirements
[28:45] for satellites and that's really why in
[28:47] main interest in the actual
[28:49] mineralization of the whole package
[28:51] design so both looking at the how we're
[28:52] integrating with the ASIC and really
[28:55] optimizing every single aspect of the
[28:57] package is key to actually saving power
[28:58] as well as Co designing the drivers and
[29:01] all these aspects and I think it's
[29:02] really you have to look at a whole
[29:03] architecture of the whole photonic
[29:06] system reliefs trying gain these
[29:07] benefits and that's really where our
[29:09] interest comes in but again the edge
[29:10] coupling versus grating coupling is a
[29:12] big consideration as well as the micro
[29:15] optics is the worst manufacturing it
[29:19] doesn't get any better than gameplay
[29:20] onyx I recommend if you're going to have
[29:22] a chat with David whenever they are
[29:23] defining their product back to you Ana
[29:25] was just gonna make a final comment
[29:27] there if it's possible just a bob sorry
[29:30] it's very interesting to hear about
[29:31] surface mount we've started a program on
[29:33] surface mount BGA packages in glass so
[29:37] and pluggable connectors so actually out
[29:41] at the top of the package so pluggable
[29:43] fixable connectors on BGA and they be
[29:47] solder reflow so absolutely fully agree
[29:50] with you that's that's needed now okay
[29:52] thank you okay so we there are no more
[29:56] questions or comments a for Peter let's
[29:59] move ahead in the program so it's my
[30:01] pleasure to introduce to you a Thurston
[30:03] bearing camp CEO at the Vikon tech so
[30:07] Thurston name hello would you like to
[30:10] very good and now you can put perfect
[30:13] you see my screen hello everybody
[30:18] very nice and pleasure to present to you
[30:22] again so if I context stands for fiber
[30:24] connecting technology we're actually a
[30:29] global partner in the in the world of
[30:31] fiber attached and photonic
[30:34] packaging and test and we have
[30:37] approximately 800 machines supplied to
[30:42] major suppliers of photonic devices
[30:47] specifically datacom telecom providers
[30:50] worldwide have a proximally hundreds 70
[30:53] employees worldwide and have pretty
[30:56] global footprint so the head office and
[30:58] in a theme as Jose mentioned already
[31:02] welcome to visit us here to see all
[31:05] those machines whether say it is a poor
[31:08] site in the US but the major machine
[31:10] installation base is actually in China
[31:13] and Southeast Asia rest of Asia
[31:16] specifically Thailand because a big
[31:18] subcontractors are located there we see
[31:23] today very little cope managed optics
[31:27] what we are packaging is what's dust for
[31:29] us as a provider for for the industrial
[31:32] world
[31:33] it just started we provide a lot of
[31:36] different solutions starting from from
[31:40] divided means for laser diet
[31:43] manufacturing very high precision die
[31:45] bonding lens lens assembly system fiber
[31:49] attached process and and tests and
[31:51] characterization systems and we
[31:53] converting very very slowly into the
[31:56] world of Co Patrick look at coke
[31:58] packaging optics what we see there is
[32:01] pretty much the same what we see from a
[32:05] front sight pluggable transceivers we
[32:09] see actually what I mentioned here
[32:12] fibers which are passively and actively
[32:15] attached and I'm want to focus on the
[32:18] passive attach within this presentation
[32:21] so we see here for example a system from
[32:26] looks tara and this doesn't mean that we
[32:31] we do specifically this ones but many
[32:34] others so if you see one of those
[32:36] systems you see this is actually a
[32:40] sketch of a machine how it looks inside
[32:42] there's a six axis alignment a stage
[32:45] where we actually grip the fiber it
[32:49] needs to be aligned in six axis you have
[32:50] an input feeder and you have a we have a
[32:53] system where the weather
[32:55] oats are kind of fed into you have a
[32:59] conveyor where the where the components
[33:01] are traveling through and then you have
[33:03] a system which is from an effect I have
[33:05] an active alignment process you feed the
[33:08] or you have an auto fiber connect where
[33:11] you black the the input fiber or the the
[33:16] outgoing fiber or you're actually
[33:19] handling the cover glass for the passive
[33:21] attach and if you have longer fibers you
[33:25] need a asset for coiled fibers this
[33:28] becomes very important because we have a
[33:31] lot of customers which don't work with
[33:33] only fiber studs like this little pieces
[33:35] of fibers with the connector we have
[33:38] also customers which worked like fire
[33:39] with fibers was up to half meter lengths
[33:43] and you need to leave this fiber
[33:45] somewhere in the machine so this is what
[33:49] this our packaging equipment
[33:51] distinguished very strongly from
[33:53] standard semiconductor processes because
[33:56] we need to handle the fibers and these
[33:58] fiber handling processes becomes a very
[34:03] tricky and I come to that and in the end
[34:06] of the presentation so if you see the
[34:08] passive approach so as an input you have
[34:11] the five fiber array you have your chip
[34:14] with v-grooves and you have a cover
[34:17] glass when you go into the machine you
[34:20] actually you need to put and plug the
[34:24] the chip you need to lock it down in
[34:27] place and you need to handle the fiber
[34:30] array to the v-grooves
[34:33] and then you need to slide the fiber
[34:36] into the v-grooves very gentle and you
[34:41] need to monitor the fibers while you
[34:44] slide let them glide into the v-groove
[34:46] so while you do that actually you
[34:49] monitor the back reflection from the
[34:51] surface of that fiber and actually by by
[34:55] having a look and the Vectra having a
[34:58] look onto the reflection of this fiber
[35:00] you see if the fiber is nicely entered
[35:03] into the v-groove and then you need to
[35:05] finally if you want to don't want to
[35:07] have a
[35:08] Shing if you don't want to have the the
[35:10] fiber touching the front side of the
[35:13] silicon chip you need to monitor the gap
[35:15] that is actually what's happening here
[35:17] and these gap needs to be designed very
[35:20] precisely
[35:21] once the fiber is slightly or and gently
[35:25] entered into the v-groove you actually
[35:27] put the cover glass down so after the
[35:30] you have the epoxy placed here you bring
[35:34] the cover glass and press down the cover
[35:37] glass was a pretty high force so you
[35:41] need to make sure that if the fibers are
[35:43] pressed completely into the into the
[35:46] v-grooves and then you start a UV pure
[35:49] process and finally you handle the this
[35:55] this fiber array or fiber attach is done
[35:58] so there's a certain number of
[36:00] challenges for example if the fibers are
[36:02] longer then let's say approximately five
[36:05] to seven centimeters you need to leave
[36:07] the end of the you need to leave the
[36:09] fiber somewhere so most for you need to
[36:10] coil them that becomes pretty tricky if
[36:13] your handles pretty stiff ribbons so
[36:16] they do whatever you want but not what
[36:18] they supposed to do in there in the cast
[36:20] beds
[36:20] so you need to have ways to manage these
[36:24] long fiber fiber arrays inside the
[36:28] machine sometimes we have customers they
[36:32] ask us to strip and cleave inside the
[36:34] machine so they actually the whole fiber
[36:37] prep process they wanted to have inside
[36:39] the machine which we do what we have to
[36:41] do that outside this the individual cell
[36:44] where where the parts are handled which
[36:48] are not allowed to see dust so this
[36:51] dirty strip please process needs to be
[36:53] done in a separate itself so you need to
[36:57] combine different cells with each other
[36:59] so sometimes we have customers they want
[37:02] to have the termination process inside
[37:04] the same inside the same same line or
[37:07] the same cell here for example an empty
[37:09] connector with a with a prepped Reuben
[37:13] file already so all these guys kind of
[37:16] things you can do and you can run in
[37:19] several
[37:20] steps so as I mentioned the co packaging
[37:23] optical assembly is not done at least
[37:28] for us right now in a large volume so we
[37:31] we are in this area so like standalone
[37:34] machines even like lab systems where we
[37:39] show capability and feasibility so we
[37:42] don't see that this type of machines
[37:44] right now in incomplete line
[37:47] configuration Zork acetic acid feeding
[37:49] but we will see or we see already that
[37:52] we will go there so there's a lot of
[37:55] things to do I totally agree with with
[37:59] Peter that definition of Co Patrick
[38:03] comparing who packaging optics is is not
[38:07] clear to us as a vendor right now what
[38:10] it for that finally means so there what
[38:13] I try to take out of this meeting is it
[38:14] getting a requirement from the market
[38:17] where is this whole technology is
[38:19] heading to thank you thank you very much
[38:23] Thurston thank you for a great
[38:24] presentation well thank you for for
[38:26] posting the question of liquid is really
[38:28] what is really cool package optics this
[38:30] is not your first rodeo this is an epic
[38:32] meeting so you know the epic question
[38:35] what can you do for them what can they
[38:37] do for you what kind of discussions are
[38:39] you looking forward to have after this
[38:41] meeting actually what I would like to
[38:45] see is we have a lot of individual
[38:48] discussions we have a lot of questions
[38:53] if we can do specific things with our
[38:55] MIDI machine and we always develop and
[38:59] reinvent the wheel all the time because
[39:01] everybody is trying to do the same but
[39:03] everybody is doing it a little bit
[39:05] different and what we would like to see
[39:08] is a direction it's like we tried many
[39:11] times to come up with technologies which
[39:12] we offer to the market but then it's
[39:14] finally not exactly what the specific
[39:17] customers needing so then we have to
[39:20] change the direction again so we are
[39:23] heading in somehow the same direction
[39:26] but not on the straight way in my
[39:28] opinion and I would like to have a
[39:30] little bit more direct way I'm a fully
[39:32] agree on that wah wah day
[39:34] years of this is to really understand
[39:36] together today I'm the first July where
[39:38] the standards going and where is the
[39:40] industry following Denmark oh yes I had
[39:44] a question for tourists and I was just
[39:46] wondering I think I was at rig that you
[39:48] mentioned industrial we know with the
[39:51] WIPP scale operators they're going to be
[39:54] looking to commoditize these types of
[39:57] CPO just like they've done in the past
[39:59] only they're going to be doubling up on
[40:01] the commoditization unfortunately they
[40:04] look at servers they and they say well
[40:07] we have to have the same kind of scale
[40:09] with services we do with optical
[40:10] technology and it's there's not enough
[40:12] of an appreciation at least by the bean
[40:15] counters at the top that there's a
[40:17] difference between servers and optics
[40:19] well my question for you is for the
[40:21] industrial space do you see enough
[40:23] differentiation to protective with
[40:26] differentiation in that you can avoid
[40:29] this commoditization trap thank you and
[40:35] to be honest that we we had really end
[40:38] of the food chain so and we are seeing
[40:42] tremendous price pressure and and and
[40:48] we're forced either going up in speed
[40:52] but there's a limitation so that means
[40:55] we get permanently pressure on on on
[40:57] pricing for for for the machines and and
[41:01] it's for us it's always the the the
[41:04] biggest competition is China Meishan and
[41:07] especially the the in-house machine
[41:12] building capabilities it our customer
[41:15] sites so it's it's a lot of price
[41:18] pressure we're into and it finally comes
[41:23] down to cost per piece so I'm not
[41:28] actually I don't know where exactly if
[41:33] I'm the right person to answer that
[41:35] question but I know I know the right
[41:39] people to answer that question and
[41:40] actually you know one of the highlights
[41:42] or the previous meeting that we had on
[41:44] beyond 400g was for me to meet Jim
[41:47] Theodorus
[41:48] GTECH because afterwards I introduced
[41:50] him to many many epic members that he
[41:52] followed up with each and every one
[41:54] wedding so Jim you're my hero thank you
[41:56] very much
[41:57] what expect out of this meeting Jim what
[41:59] kind of collaborations can we do with HG
[42:02] Tech I think Torsten brought up a very
[42:05] good point right now unfortunately
[42:07] there's a lot of standardization MSAs on
[42:10] the definition of the channels
[42:11] electrical interfaces the optical thighs
[42:14] budgets that effort needs to move down
[42:17] further into the optical engines
[42:19] themselves and I know a lot of companies
[42:22] think that's their secret sauce oh
[42:24] that's their you know that's their
[42:26] you know secret recipe and that's where
[42:28] their value add is but that I think that
[42:30] time has long passed now there's more
[42:33] benefit to be had by everyone working
[42:36] together to more standardized ease
[42:38] because as tourists and said every
[42:40] machine ends up being slightly different
[42:42] every optical engine ends up being
[42:43] slightly different every process happens
[42:45] up being slightly different but they're
[42:46] also similar so if we could just extend
[42:49] that MSA work and the teamwork into
[42:52] further down the food chain in the
[42:54] optical engine themselves now every one
[42:56] of the uptick numbers can start
[42:58] targeting something that's well defined
[43:00] and you get this this economy of scale
[43:04] that's going to really push all this
[43:06] push this forward in optical
[43:07] communications so I think that's what we
[43:10] need and I think I think these calls are
[43:12] a great first step making the
[43:13] introductions working together everyone
[43:16] that you you uh you sit on me I've set
[43:19] up what I didn't call them business
[43:20] means I call them brainstorming sessions
[43:22] how can we work together to solve these
[43:24] industry problems because I think it's
[43:26] going to benefit everyone so thank you I
[43:28] think
[43:29] brainstorming meetings I really love it
[43:31] that's that's really what are you going
[43:32] to do am I going to introduce a new
[43:34] friend to the epic family Farooq our has
[43:37] been very active in the last week saying
[43:39] gay engaging with us he did yuki-san
[43:41] thank you very much for joining the
[43:43] meeting today what do you SPECT out of
[43:44] this meeting and what kind of
[43:46] collaborations would you like to start
[43:47] afterwards okay thank you very much for
[43:51] giving this good opportunity actually I
[43:54] just know you know understand that you
[43:57] know this meeting is held just a two
[43:59] week to two days ago
[44:01] disability email and actually you know
[44:05] Foucault is a particularly I'm working
[44:07] on the you know optical of the best side
[44:10] particular active active device just
[44:13] looking at the you know coke packaging
[44:15] application also the you know silicon
[44:18] photonics technology we are setting the
[44:20] laser chip the other chip is very small
[44:23] portion and you know also the ideal
[44:27] business is the becoming you know
[44:29] shrinking you know we are you know
[44:31] providing the in package the raises
[44:34] occasional transceivers but if we you
[44:37] know say of the in related chip you know
[44:39] as I mentioned if the business is
[44:41] shrinking then right now we are looking
[44:44] out here in next-generation
[44:46] in the way of the you know transition
[44:49] yeah let's see the architecture so then
[44:54] the coupe packaging should be the very
[44:55] bare promising and it should be the key
[44:58] technology and key up teacher then I'm
[45:01] really thinking you know you know you
[45:05] guys what what kind of thing you are
[45:07] looking and what is market of this you
[45:10] know packaging so that's why I decided
[45:12] to you know join this meeting so if we
[45:18] something it would be good I did at the
[45:21] point of this meeting is to find reasons
[45:23] to work together so I there are many
[45:25] people who want to interact closer with
[45:26] you so it's already a great success that
[45:28] you are here thank you very much
[45:29] yuki-san and we are gonna continue with
[45:32] the program and we're gonna go to the
[45:34] fancier looking speaker we have today in
[45:37] the show thank you very much Teledyne
[45:39] to be represented at the meeting today
[45:42] we want to understand reasons for us to
[45:44] working together and to test our chips
[45:46] with the best the best of silla scope
[45:49] you can buy in the world because i did a
[45:51] lot of non-linear dynamics measurements
[45:53] with alacra
[45:54] the floor and the attention everyone
[45:55] goes to you well good morning good
[46:00] afternoon good evening good night
[46:02] depending on where you're coming in this
[46:03] time zone i am representing the ethernet
[46:07] alliance in this call although my my
[46:09] paid employer is Teledyne Lucroy so my
[46:12] Ethernet Alliance at
[46:15] natella dine has done a lot of things in
[46:17] the test and measurement space obviously
[46:19] we've been around for quite a bit of
[46:21] time we have both the physical tools as
[46:23] well as the protocol tools
[46:25] I represent the protocol house so the
[46:30] way I describe it is the physical the
[46:32] scopes and birds and what not let us
[46:34] know that we have a productive and
[46:35] active roadway and protocol tools let us
[46:38] know that we're driving the appropriate
[46:40] car or vehicle on that roadway with that
[46:43] let me move into the Ethernet Alliance
[46:46] components here you guys can see my
[46:48] screen I'm sharing properly Anna
[46:54] double-check you know Ethernet is the
[46:57] backbone and the technology of the
[46:58] meeting with which we're having today
[47:00] whether you're on a Wi-Fi connection
[47:01] whether you're on a wired connection the
[47:03] function of Ethernet is to provide that
[47:06] roadway for us so the Ethernet Alliance
[47:09] is a is a consortium a group of
[47:12] end-users system vendors and component
[47:14] suppliers that have come together to
[47:18] effectively test and ensure that the
[47:20] products that we have work the Ethernet
[47:23] Alliance mission is stated here is
[47:26] basically to promote the awareness in
[47:29] acceptance and advancement of Ethernet
[47:31] technologies across the board and we
[47:33] standardize on the existing and emerging
[47:35] 802 dot three standards as our our
[47:38] function in our focus although as Jim
[47:42] pointed out there's a lot of em essays
[47:44] and interactive sessions like when we're
[47:47] having today where we work with other
[47:48] organizations and entities to promote
[47:50] Ethernet to opportunities
[47:53] we'd like to accelerate the industry
[47:55] adoption and we do that by trying to
[47:58] remove barriers this meeting is a
[47:59] perfect example of that and one of the
[48:03] keys to that and I'll focus on here in
[48:04] today's meeting is the demonstration of
[48:07] multi vendor interoperability and last
[48:10] year we met the folks from epic at the
[48:13] the European conference for optics the
[48:15] ECOC show so some of the ways that the
[48:19] Ethernet Alliance facilitates our
[48:22] mission is through these focused
[48:25] strategies on the screen right here
[48:28] as I pointed out interoperability
[48:31] testing thought leadership and promotion
[48:35] of Ethernet in a variety of ways we also
[48:38] do some new things now with
[48:40] interoperability assurance so we put
[48:42] together the power over ethernet
[48:44] certification program that was demanded
[48:47] by the the membership to find a way to
[48:51] show that things actually work together
[48:53] very much like the USB model or PCIe
[48:55] model we put together a program that
[48:58] allows for independent tests and
[49:00] verification and validation of products
[49:03] actually operating together point out
[49:07] clip collab that excuse me not enough
[49:09] coffee a collaborative interaction with
[49:12] other industry organizations as I spoke
[49:13] to working with the epic people and
[49:16] finding a way to share the message of
[49:18] Ethan and Alliance and its abilities to
[49:21] to generate interest improve technology
[49:23] works with the the community at large in
[49:26] Europe so we do have a global outreach
[49:29] we have members from all over the the
[49:32] world literally and then again in the
[49:34] promotion of Ethernet we have a broad
[49:36] spectrum of Industry Analysts
[49:39] educational outreach and then a lot of
[49:41] marketing so our members our members
[49:43] really dictate what we do and how we do
[49:45] it some of the things that we have done
[49:48] over the past several years this is a
[49:50] short list but no plug fests we bring
[49:55] together a lot of the members there's
[49:56] quite a few companies on this panel
[49:59] today that are members and come together
[50:01] to quietly and effectively test the
[50:05] inter operation of new products and new
[50:07] technologies to the most important ones
[50:10] over the last year were the high speed
[50:11] networking where we're testing four
[50:14] hundred gigabit interfaces on OSF P and
[50:17] Q SFPD D those boring passive cable
[50:20] interconnects and then the N base T
[50:22] license which became part of the
[50:24] Ethernet Alliance so we have you know
[50:26] from single pair Ethernet up to you know
[50:29] high-density coax and fiber
[50:31] interconnects they were actually testing
[50:33] in these plugfest environments I already
[50:35] alluded to the PIO e certification we've
[50:38] just released the 3.3 BT
[50:41] vacations for testing specification of
[50:44] course the I Triple E specification has
[50:46] been around for quite some time and then
[50:49] the public demonstrations we take these
[50:51] plug fests we take these certifications
[50:53] and then we show them to the world to
[50:56] the buyers to the interested parties out
[50:58] there through a variety of different
[50:59] means the most demonstrable obviously is
[51:03] public demonstrations so optical fiber
[51:06] conference supercomputing in the ECOC
[51:08] show and others as indicated by our
[51:10] member companies as a brief recap over
[51:14] the 2019 because of course since the
[51:17] onset of coronavirus had trade shows
[51:20] here but the optical fiber conference
[51:23] 2019 san diego these are the pictures of
[51:26] that show
[51:27] unfortunately the spaghetti map here
[51:29] kind of a kind of indicate of the
[51:32] environment obsessed in in prototyping
[51:36] our products or across the industry it's
[51:38] not a sexy wire wrap situation this is
[51:42] actually real working everything in this
[51:45] rack is functioning at this point but we
[51:47] had a booth demonstration from 10 gig to
[51:50] 400 gigabit e with multiple fiber drops
[51:53] throughout the show show floor so we
[51:55] introduced to the optical fiber
[51:57] conference community the idea of having
[51:59] a live I mean yes he's been doing that
[52:02] supercomputing has been doing it for a
[52:03] while but as a industry organization we
[52:06] dropped fiber into the floor to our
[52:09] member companies and some of the SIG's
[52:11] that we participate with and actually
[52:13] had live demonstrations of a variety of
[52:16] technologies over fiber the participant
[52:19] list was a pretty strong one with switch
[52:22] vendors Nick vendors and I don't say
[52:26] more importantly because it's kind of
[52:27] self-serving because I'm in the TNM
[52:29] market but test and measurement is
[52:31] showing up exceptionally strong in these
[52:32] environments because without test and
[52:35] measurement we can't prove the concepts
[52:37] that we've talking about either publicly
[52:39] or in these privately behind though the
[52:41] walls of our companies so we also hosted
[52:47] a panel there with the interoperability
[52:49] we had several top speakers there were
[52:51] members of the Ethernet Alliance he
[52:53] participated in the graphics on the
[52:55] right this is the actual booth some of
[52:58] you may have seen that and we we
[53:01] actually carry our own equipment down
[53:02] there as well so once we get these
[53:04] things set up and configured we take it
[53:07] down and we stash it and we take it to
[53:09] the shows so as I alluded to earlier we
[53:13] met a lot of folks from the epic team
[53:15] here at each Aachen in Dublin in
[53:18] September of last year a slightly
[53:21] smaller participant list but the the
[53:23] same messaging and I think the overall
[53:25] impact was very similar which is a lot
[53:28] of disparate companies come together to
[53:30] make these in show that technology works
[53:33] across the board so we didn't have any
[53:36] live fibre drops but we did have a
[53:37] substantial amount of technology running
[53:39] from 10 gigabit twinax
[53:41] all the way to 400 gig passive copper
[53:44] and an active fiber so a strong support
[53:49] from the test and measurement community
[53:51] again as well as several of our switch
[53:54] and component vendors this group over
[53:58] here this is a gang of gang of
[54:00] ne'er-do-wells who is helping get
[54:02] everything set up so you we have and
[54:04] this was our live show floor from up
[54:06] above wonderful venue I might say and of
[54:09] course being able to go to Ireland
[54:11] before the cove it was a lovely thing
[54:14] for those of you that are interested in
[54:16] more information about the Ethernet
[54:18] Alliance this is our contact information
[54:20] and the pages which we we do a lot of
[54:22] social and web work so you're welcome to
[54:26] participate membership getting on and
[54:31] getting information about what we do is
[54:32] easily access through the website and
[54:34] then follow us on the social zand you'll
[54:36] see some of the things about webinars
[54:37] that we do and other activities and with
[54:41] that I will I'll pass it back to you
[54:44] guys thank you thank you very much
[54:47] they've a great presentation ok so what
[54:50] would you say that are the companies
[54:52] that you would like to attract to the
[54:54] Ethernet Alliance I mean what are the
[54:55] companies that do you think this
[54:57] company's missing oh this kind of
[54:59] companies are missing what kind of
[55:02] companies it ranges the spectrum Anna we
[55:07] have your component suppliers
[55:09] source photonics momentum you know I
[55:12] don't name names anybody
[55:13] we have optical providers for both
[55:15] transceivers and fiber we have test and
[55:21] measurement a strong number of test and
[55:22] measurement companies we have Cisco
[55:26] arresting the switches product companies
[55:29] so it really is an amalgam of everybody
[55:32] within the ecosystem to try to figure
[55:34] out how these things work there's a lot
[55:36] of focus obviously on high speed
[55:38] interconnects today because of the
[55:40] moment movement in 802 3 but we also
[55:43] have a lot of people working on one gig
[55:47] 2.5 5 gig base t4 Power over Ethernet so
[55:52] wherever you sort of see the the benefit
[55:55] of Ethernet Alliance these companies
[55:57] come together jim Theodorus you know I
[56:00] worked with him last year on the board
[56:01] with the Ethernet Alliance so we're all
[56:04] over the map as far as membership is
[56:06] concerned ok perfect I think we have a
[56:11] question or a comment and from mark yes
[56:14] thank you very much and actually even
[56:16] when I'm presenting I don't do sales
[56:18] pitches but I do want to just as an epic
[56:22] member that go to fibre reality comm
[56:25] slash store and we have a totally new
[56:28] report on Siena facing commoditization
[56:30] and what they could do about that a
[56:33] commoditization meaning of course on the
[56:35] web scale front yeah but I do I do have
[56:37] a question for David do you see the you
[56:44] mentioned OSF P versus DD and that's an
[56:47] issue with a 400 Zr or will be as those
[56:51] products come out and splitting the
[56:53] market like that it's going to create
[56:55] some pricing issues I would suspect but
[56:59] are you uh or maybe you don't want to
[57:01] take a stance on it do you see as we get
[57:03] to 800 G that the OS FP will be more
[57:07] compelling I I don't my crystal ball is
[57:13] this cloud is the Mississippi but I
[57:15] might my take on it is we max out the DD
[57:19] the QSF PDD at 800 and
[57:23] that's where the sweet spot starts to
[57:25] pick up for OSF P as a technology
[57:27] interconnect technology with speed comes
[57:30] power and heat so heat dissipation was
[57:33] one of the key issues behind the design
[57:34] of the OS FP interface so I think as you
[57:39] move into the higher speeds the higher
[57:40] per link and per port speed
[57:42] characteristics OS FP becomes more
[57:44] popular but there's such a legacy I mean
[57:47] this was the whole debate wasn't moving
[57:49] forward the camp that went q SFPD D said
[57:52] we want to support the legacy
[57:54] implementations we know that there's a
[57:55] limitation once we get into these higher
[57:57] bandwidths and then the camp that said
[57:59] let's go OS FP said well we're not
[58:02] really concerned about that and we
[58:04] believe that there's ways to
[58:04] interoperate to that effect I actually
[58:08] tested an OS f p2 q SFPD D DAC so Ike
[58:13] was able to convert electrically there
[58:14] was no difference it's just a matter of
[58:16] connector interface optically of course
[58:18] you know now I have to figure out which
[58:20] is going to have the sweeter spot to be
[58:22] able to get my money in my return on
[58:24] investment for investing in one of these
[58:26] two interconnects
[58:28] it's obviously market you know there's
[58:31] some companies that are saying well
[58:32] we've already got the QSF B interface
[58:34] we're gonna be fine with that we're
[58:36] going to move forward with OS EFI for
[58:38] high speed connections so you know it
[58:41] it's it's the VHS versus Betamax wars a
[58:46] little bit differently okay thank you
[58:51] very much David maybe it's a moment now
[58:53] to introduce you one person in this room
[58:56] giovanni from BTT it would you like now
[59:00] the tenor say maybe about how you are
[59:02] integrating these pixels with silicon
[59:05] photonics a for the passion project or
[59:07] work in in general what kind of
[59:09] activities are you are you going on well
[59:15] thank you Anna
[59:16] can you hear me yes all right well it's
[59:20] a great meeting as usual and this is a
[59:23] great opportunity also to to say that in
[59:27] addition to what has been saved a few
[59:29] minutes ago about the way to efficiently
[59:34] couple light into fiber whether arrived
[59:38] vertically or just black Apple Apple I
[59:41] just simply to say a remark what we are
[59:45] scouting now in fashion and that is
[59:48] using mirrors mirrors are an efficient
[59:53] way to to escape from the limitations
[59:58] offer by capping ratings as well as the
[01:00:02] pad coupling and and offer absolutely
[01:00:11] insensitivity to polarization and and of
[01:00:15] course cover the overall optical
[01:00:18] bandwidth that for instance our silicon
[01:00:22] photonics atom is able to cover so
[01:00:24] basically from one point to up to four
[01:00:26] microns or even more so turning mirror
[01:00:31] are definitely a solution and we can
[01:00:35] discuss if the coupling strategy can
[01:00:38] arrive from the vertical on the mirror
[01:00:40] or as I strongly suggest to to use micro
[01:00:45] optics to paralyze so basically to
[01:00:50] convert again from vertical to
[01:00:51] horizontal because vertical also for
[01:00:54] mechanical reasons as you can imagine is
[01:00:56] not really the way to to offer a
[01:01:01] reliable solution and as as Peter say
[01:01:06] before no questions that micro optics
[01:01:09] will we play an essential role in that
[01:01:11] and it's true is true because from the
[01:01:13] from that from the mirror to the fiber
[01:01:16] you need something in micro optics to to
[01:01:20] tilt that the the beam again 90 degree
[01:01:22] and to go flat and parallel with with
[01:01:24] your silicon photonics solution that's
[01:01:25] that's the way
[01:01:27] and that is the the approach that we are
[01:01:32] doing whether in passions but also
[01:01:34] another another another another
[01:01:36] application so that is basically my
[01:01:39] feeling in addition to the fact that the
[01:01:42] mirror is bit directional so it means
[01:01:45] that you can collect the light but you
[01:01:46] even can launch it like in in passion
[01:01:50] for instance we use mirror to kappa
[01:01:52] light into three micro so i waveguides
[01:01:56] that is our platform using excel for
[01:01:59] instance and successfully demonstrate so
[01:02:04] that that is a great is a great
[01:02:07] opportunity ssin just simply to say that
[01:02:09] mirrors are always possible and and an
[01:02:15] effective way to really be to offer
[01:02:19] integrated solutions and not bulky with
[01:02:22] anyone in the telecom want bulky things
[01:02:25] want everything to shrink everything in
[01:02:28] in in the minimum volume possible that
[01:02:33] basically what is my by my side any
[01:02:44] challenge in the fabrication of these
[01:02:46] mirrors now that you have in the
[01:02:48] packaging of a DS a transceiver that we
[01:02:51] are building in impassion just now you
[01:02:53] have all the community here so do you
[01:02:55] have any challenge to share what
[01:02:59] challenges are always in any process
[01:03:03] what the good things is that we offer
[01:03:07] mirrors also in our PD K so it means
[01:03:10] that these mirrors has been
[01:03:15] well tested and the process to realize
[01:03:19] that also stable and and the well define
[01:03:23] it so mmm it's an and PDK is the way to
[01:03:27] is the easiest and and an less expensive
[01:03:31] way to do to try and to test that is
[01:03:34] technology as well okay so I think we
[01:03:38] have a we have will free adhere but once
[01:03:41] the comments about this would fit yeah
[01:03:44] Thank You Giovanni from vtt for bringing
[01:03:48] up the mirrors so we also offer mirrors
[01:03:52] now with micro lenses so basically you
[01:03:56] have a mirror integrated in the micro
[01:03:58] lens array this has already been we
[01:04:01] already have clients that are using this
[01:04:03] for data come allocations and and this
[01:04:05] is a way to go for cool packaging I
[01:04:07] clearly see that too you have to
[01:04:09] increase the the number of features you
[01:04:13] have to increase the number of packaging
[01:04:17] elements so for the assembly and also
[01:04:20] for the optics you have to make it more
[01:04:22] more compact everything and and one way
[01:04:25] of course is to integrate mirrors and
[01:04:27] we're going exactly the same way with
[01:04:29] with micro lens areas and and it works
[01:04:34] so the first data that we've seen they
[01:04:37] are great so of course I can't tell you
[01:04:39] who is doing it rest but it is fantastic
[01:04:42] that it works so actually we afraid I I
[01:04:45] would I totally agree and I totally can
[01:04:48] share your your comment and also your
[01:04:52] satisfactions we also try to design our
[01:04:55] say micro optic structure to to convert
[01:05:01] the vertical beam from the mirror to
[01:05:04] horizontal in a very very small form
[01:05:08] factor so that is mall micro macro
[01:05:10] assembly and the fiber in this moment is
[01:05:14] still glue its in with this kind of
[01:05:17] micro assembly but the micro simply can
[01:05:19] can can come in a in a in a in array
[01:05:24] form so for 816
[01:05:27] in this moment I cannot imagine bigger
[01:05:30] than that but definitely fair enough
[01:05:33] more than adequate to the existing
[01:05:35] application and okay I don't want to
[01:05:39] steal more time here we mentioned that
[01:05:42] already last time that there is an
[01:05:45] interesting difference between Telecom
[01:05:47] and data command Telecom we see very
[01:05:49] large areas with very high densities and
[01:05:51] and prom from what's-his-name from Oleg
[01:05:58] said that already last time he said
[01:05:59] there is a difference we tailor common
[01:06:01] data come unfortunately but telecom has
[01:06:04] done basically very dense packaging
[01:06:06] already for for many years and they have
[01:06:09] pictures of 80 microns 127 microns and a
[01:06:13] very closed package very very complex
[01:06:16] very complex devices but definitely at a
[01:06:18] different price level so so we still
[01:06:24] waiting for seeing - to see this
[01:06:26] transition from till you come to datacom
[01:06:28] terms of technology I think ooh boy the
[01:06:31] goal is very high so this will be very
[01:06:33] disruptive like like always turns
[01:06:37] emphasizes so it must be disruptive in
[01:06:39] order to have a chance and and I think
[01:06:42] the goal is so high risk over that it's
[01:06:44] not a gradual change from from the
[01:06:46] current transceiver technology to coal
[01:06:48] and that will take time and there will
[01:06:50] be lot of challenges in the technology
[01:06:52] at the price level that is don't think
[01:06:57] the price is gonna be they did it
[01:06:58] rolling here I hear the problem is that
[01:07:00] the losses with the interfaces Jim from
[01:07:03] AG tech I think we are seeing little by
[01:07:06] little doubt that a hundred GA
[01:07:08] electrical channel is a problem we had
[01:07:11] to move to a 200 G electrical channel
[01:07:13] and that's gonna create like a a new
[01:07:16] jungle gogo code SAT tech feel about
[01:07:18] this and stop our transition well so I
[01:07:22] think ok so a point people are missing
[01:07:27] so I kind of cringed a bit my heard
[01:07:28] earlier let's make surface mounts let's
[01:07:32] make surface mount optics and right now
[01:07:36] we're at 100 Giga bod going to 200 Giga
[01:07:38] bod on the electrical bus in early
[01:07:40] channel
[01:07:41] from the connector and package vendors
[01:07:42] are showing that the package budget the
[01:07:45] package loss is greater than the whole
[01:07:47] link budget that you're trying to
[01:07:49] achieve so we that's why there's this
[01:07:52] assertive effort of the industry to look
[01:07:55] at CP o Co package optics is that
[01:07:58] realization that longer-term the package
[01:08:01] itself is going to of just getting out
[01:08:03] of the package is going to eat all of
[01:08:05] your budget at the higher speeds needed
[01:08:07] to move forward so that's why let's
[01:08:10] bring the optics on the same substrate
[01:08:12] it can be any substrate in Co black she
[01:08:15] has a big roadmap like eight or nine
[01:08:17] steps of gradually getting there but we
[01:08:19] need to gradually take out more and more
[01:08:21] of those interfaces and so that the link
[01:08:25] but you do have is being used for your
[01:08:27] link not for the package itself I'm
[01:08:29] making this right in your mindset and
[01:08:32] really between the lies that you think
[01:08:33] that the co package optics are an
[01:08:35] intermediary step to having electrics
[01:08:38] and for electronics and photonics
[01:08:40] integrating the Singapore taxi that's a
[01:08:44] good first step yes so the end goal is
[01:08:46] total integration but we have to you
[01:08:48] know crawl walk run and so the first
[01:08:50] step is is first is Kobo then the next
[01:08:53] step is maybe Co package the optics and
[01:08:56] the next step after that is actually
[01:08:58] taking it one step further
[01:09:00] but we're investing a lot a lot a lot of
[01:09:03] money on this intermediary step serve
[01:09:06] you have to consider Silk impending I'm
[01:09:08] gonna introduce you to a company who has
[01:09:10] been invested heavily on helping
[01:09:12] companies maybe circumvent the first
[01:09:14] step
[01:09:14] Varia optics a company that we have in
[01:09:16] epic on integrating optics in the PCB
[01:09:19] boards thank you very much Felix for
[01:09:21] being with us this afternoon tell us
[01:09:23] tell us how we can speed up this process
[01:09:25] because I see a lot of intermediary step
[01:09:28] the floor and the attention of everyone
[01:09:30] is yours thanks a lot
[01:09:33] Jose for this tactical introduction mhm
[01:09:40] first share screen
[01:09:49] can you see it crystal clear we will
[01:09:57] still see the presentation mode crease a
[01:09:59] clear the floor here's okay then I'm
[01:10:01] happy nothing happened between the tests
[01:10:04] and now thanks a lot
[01:10:07] that I'm allowed to talk about our
[01:10:09] technology we are working exactly in the
[01:10:11] field of photonic ports elect optical
[01:10:14] serach report we might have some
[01:10:19] solutions for for the next generation or
[01:10:22] the next steps for the integration of
[01:10:26] electronics and optics on board I will
[01:10:30] talk first about where your optics in
[01:10:33] our technology in an earth child but I
[01:10:35] would like to focus then on to two
[01:10:39] samples which we actually realized one
[01:10:42] for Co packaged optics and one was a
[01:10:45] step a further step where we realized
[01:10:49] optical chip-to-chip communication
[01:10:55] very optics is small SME based in in
[01:10:58] Switzerland in the very East we are
[01:11:00] focusing on the manufacturing of electro
[01:11:05] optical circuit boards or photonic
[01:11:07] substrates we also support our customers
[01:11:11] in the design and development of their
[01:11:15] electro optic systems we work in
[01:11:19] different markets like sensor
[01:11:21] applications for Tony packaging and high
[01:11:25] speed onboard communication this is the
[01:11:30] concept of our technology I think that
[01:11:34] the concept is known it's nothing really
[01:11:38] new we have somewhere a photonic layer
[01:11:42] or an optic layer with either polymer or
[01:11:46] glass wave guides the gloves wave guides
[01:11:49] we usually work together with from
[01:11:54] hovering ICM in Berlin they too are in
[01:11:57] diffusion the polymers the polymer wave
[01:12:00] guides are defined using photo lead to
[01:12:03] create travel so somewhere you have such
[01:12:06] a such a multi-layer can be in in the
[01:12:12] inner as an inner layer or it can be in
[01:12:14] an outer layer on the surface of a
[01:12:17] conventional PCB you see here such a
[01:12:20] cross-section in the middle the St
[01:12:22] optical layer with here 20 electrical
[01:12:26] layers we Virge we work usually large
[01:12:31] formats up to 305 transform 60 square
[01:12:36] millimeters which is the smallest PCB
[01:12:39] panel format we provide different
[01:12:42] interfaces that was also discussion
[01:12:44] before for multimode we have a solution
[01:12:49] based on a mirror device for vertical
[01:12:51] coupling but we also can provide
[01:12:55] edge coupling or debate the coupling
[01:13:00] evanescent field based coupling we don't
[01:13:05] do assembly of components at
[01:13:08] usually the first thing which is asked
[01:13:10] but we provide very precise assembly
[01:13:13] features which support passive or region
[01:13:17] based assembly of such components here
[01:13:22] as I already mentioned I would like to
[01:13:27] explain the benefits of our technology
[01:13:30] based on realized projects the first one
[01:13:34] is out of the you project cosmic there
[01:13:38] we had to develop not the proven airport
[01:13:41] for a two point four terribly per second
[01:13:43] onboard optical transient the basis here
[01:13:49] was a debated coupling so evanescent
[01:13:52] field coupling we realized quite good
[01:13:57] losses which were below 1tb the other
[01:14:02] nice thing about the debate the coupling
[01:14:04] is that you have relaxed assembly
[01:14:06] tolerances the two waveguides the taper
[01:14:09] on the silicon side and polymer
[01:14:12] waveguide they don't have to be aligned
[01:14:15] very precisely to each other so they
[01:14:18] only have to touch each other that means
[01:14:21] that the width of the polymer a variety
[01:14:23] is more same or less the assembly
[01:14:26] tolerance with this coupling scheme it
[01:14:32] also supports a broad wavelength flare
[01:14:34] range so WTM coating can be realized and
[01:14:41] what I have mentioned before we realized
[01:14:46] the fan out to passively the same glass
[01:14:49] fibers you see the concept which it
[01:14:53] passes on so on our wave guide on the
[01:14:57] waveguide side photo report we can
[01:15:01] realize very precise assembly features
[01:15:04] they are defined during the same photo
[01:15:07] lithographic
[01:15:09] curing step and therefore they are
[01:15:11] aligned with in sub micron position to
[01:15:15] our wave guides another element which we
[01:15:19] are using is a device with
[01:15:22] we groves can be a silicon silicon
[01:15:26] device with etched brie grooves which
[01:15:31] can be platform to our board like a Lego
[01:15:33] bridge break so it's quite easy to to
[01:15:36] assemble on the other side it acts as an
[01:15:39] assembly aid for glass fiber it means it
[01:15:42] was also shown within this project that
[01:15:45] one can realize repeatable repeatable
[01:15:51] good losses in the range of point three
[01:15:53] DB between a waveguide array and fiber
[01:15:58] written already what is also interesting
[01:16:01] that was the discussion before also
[01:16:04] about micro optics so such kind of
[01:16:06] alignments strategies can be used for
[01:16:11] further to assemble further components
[01:16:15] like lenses or active components so
[01:16:20] that's a quite a good basis for a
[01:16:23] cost-effective simply the other sample I
[01:16:28] wanted to bring up is out of the new
[01:16:31] project streams there we had to develop
[01:16:35] a substrate now with electrical traces
[01:16:39] also for high speed optical chip to chip
[01:16:42] communication the coupling also based
[01:16:45] here on adiabatic coupling same
[01:16:48] principle as before with in cosmic in
[01:16:52] order to realize that we had to provide
[01:16:56] a very flat and substrate with very high
[01:17:02] planarity in order to support
[01:17:05] simultaneous adiabatic and electrical
[01:17:08] coupling in bonding also you see here in
[01:17:12] a low life such a picture of such a peak
[01:17:15] area with the naked course here I think
[01:17:19] they have a pitch of buffer to
[01:17:20] micrometers then we you see also the
[01:17:25] electrical paths around it in the middle
[01:17:27] you see the flip chip pic onto the board
[01:17:31] with the different necessary additional
[01:17:35] components the optical losses we
[01:17:39] realized here was in the range of 0.5 DB
[01:17:43] per centimeter at 1310 nanometers the
[01:17:47] class it would be much better we also
[01:17:51] were able to show that with this
[01:17:54] technology we can realize also very good
[01:17:57] RF electrical properties which are in
[01:18:00] the range of the theoretical values
[01:18:04] given by the dielectric substrate
[01:18:09] vendors increasingly at the end we also
[01:18:13] also that was made by the university of
[01:18:16] athens there was also a comparison done
[01:18:19] between state-of-the-art electrical bus
[01:18:23] systems like the UPI of Intel with this
[01:18:27] optical transmission system and we were
[01:18:33] able to show that you can realize 70%
[01:18:36] power reduction compared to electrical
[01:18:40] communication so that's quite an
[01:18:43] impressive number and I think it's a
[01:18:45] it's one of the arguments why to just
[01:18:49] reach more and more from electrical
[01:18:51] chip-to-chip communication to optical
[01:18:54] and hopefully that will be realized
[01:18:56] within the next generation or the next
[01:18:59] steps
[01:18:59] development steps to the next generation
[01:19:02] products so I'm at the end of my
[01:19:06] technology and I my speech sorry
[01:19:10] hotel technology goes on and but I also
[01:19:15] structured the conclusions like Jose
[01:19:18] likes to have it so we can offer a
[01:19:22] completely new approach for optical call
[01:19:25] packages and chip to chip communication
[01:19:28] by highly integrating the electrical and
[01:19:31] the optical interconnects we can provide
[01:19:37] with that very high data throughput
[01:19:39] onboard it's compared to an electrical
[01:19:41] system but we also can support low cost
[01:19:46] packaging
[01:19:48] at significant power reduction and we
[01:19:52] are looking for innovative partners
[01:19:54] which are willing to use our technology
[01:19:57] and to benefit from the advantages we
[01:20:03] can offer with this technology thanks a
[01:20:06] lot I'm open for for questions thank you
[01:20:09] very much for a great presentation I
[01:20:12] thank you for for bringing a little bit
[01:20:14] more light into this topic you mark here
[01:20:19] we go
[01:20:20] Felix I'm not going to just unload on
[01:20:22] you but I want to get the rest of the
[01:20:24] audience including Jim who would suggest
[01:20:26] that we have to go beyond Scipio I think
[01:20:30] some of us aren't even gonna be around
[01:20:33] to see CP oh that's just my opinion I
[01:20:36] guess but so maybe it's a couple of
[01:20:38] lifetimes till we get to the promised
[01:20:40] land I mean who's pushing for CBO it's
[01:20:43] Microsoft and Facebook Facebook is
[01:20:45] probably the least disciplined when it
[01:20:47] comes to costs on optics Microsoft has
[01:20:50] come up with all kinds of ideas that
[01:20:51] have not been adapted market-wise colors
[01:20:54] was a disaster cost wise it was not a
[01:20:57] debt it was not adopted anywhere else
[01:20:58] they could have gone with much simpler
[01:21:00] or better solutions for the direct
[01:21:02] detect Cobo was dead on arrival
[01:21:05] and now CPO along with Kobo suppliers
[01:21:09] have to use suppliers have to use
[01:21:11] resources to vote resources to
[01:21:14] unnecessarily in my opinion to in order
[01:21:18] to because they're afraid that they lose
[01:21:21] Microsoft's business it is you know it
[01:21:24] isn't bad enough that the web-scale
[01:21:27] operators are driving components down at
[01:21:30] commoditization levels and if you look
[01:21:33] at the two biggest component suppliers
[01:21:35] aluminum and 2/6 what they're doing in
[01:21:38] an increasingly mature market I would
[01:21:40] say a market that's mature a long time
[01:21:42] ago especially the data come and telecom
[01:21:44] they're picking and choosing you're
[01:21:46] going at different sectors of picking
[01:21:48] exactly where they want to go on the
[01:21:50] food chain and going for the best
[01:21:53] options possible where's the money going
[01:21:55] to come from to do all this stuff we'll
[01:21:59] be lucky to have four to Gigabit
[01:22:00] Ethernet component
[01:22:01] in 2026 let's say a million of them
[01:22:05] given the virus and everything so I know
[01:22:08] that's that open-ended statement a bit
[01:22:10] of a rant so I actually think that you
[01:22:15] hit that you hit the right spot for me
[01:22:17] that the key question that I have here
[01:22:18] is they see many parts of the supply
[01:22:20] chain not fully understanding what go
[01:22:24] package optics actually is but I'm gonna
[01:22:26] give the floor to Jim Jim you would like
[01:22:28] to comment on marks a statement I would
[01:22:31] love to because I'd like to answer your
[01:22:33] question actually Jose what is co
[01:22:35] package ethics so first of all to to
[01:22:37] comment on marks take fall starts are
[01:22:40] part of the creative process so if
[01:22:41] you're not failing fast then you're not
[01:22:44] trying enough things but so I'd like to
[01:22:47] highlight what Co package optics really
[01:22:49] is or what it's trying to solve so no
[01:22:52] matter how a hyper scale or a data
[01:22:53] center architects their switch
[01:22:56] architecture no matter which
[01:22:58] architecture their picks there will
[01:22:59] always be at least one stage somewhere
[01:23:02] where everything must touch everything I
[01:23:04] call it the fan-out but in in a three
[01:23:08] stage clone network it's the middle
[01:23:09] stage but no matter what hyper scale
[01:23:11] davison you look at at some point in
[01:23:13] that architecture every port must touch
[01:23:16] every other court and that drives a lot
[01:23:18] of power remember Brad booth talking
[01:23:20] about their really power concern with
[01:23:22] power it drives a lot of cost it drives
[01:23:24] a lot of volume a lot of interconnect so
[01:23:26] CP o is the attempt to say you know for
[01:23:29] this one part of my switch net
[01:23:32] architecture that is so demanding and
[01:23:35] power cost and interconnect maybe I can
[01:23:37] leverage technology to solve that one
[01:23:40] headache so they're trying to solve that
[01:23:42] one little piece it may be Kobo it may
[01:23:44] be Co packaged it may just I actually
[01:23:46] saw one day as they're coming to use a
[01:23:48] pawn use an actual access pawn because
[01:23:51] they could hit 64 ports with one
[01:23:53] architecture so I've seen every solution
[01:23:56] you can think of 9/3 think all the smart
[01:23:58] people in our industry can put their
[01:24:01] heads together and we can we can find a
[01:24:03] way of solving that and when I saw a lot
[01:24:05] of the technologies in epic I'm like wow
[01:24:08] all of this just like the one way to
[01:24:10] solve that can solve the problem I know
[01:24:12] we're still going to see Cisco so we can
[01:24:14] ask Siskel about it because
[01:24:15] leading solving this problem but I I you
[01:24:18] know I think we can bring a lot of these
[01:24:20] technologies to bear to small what is
[01:24:22] their number one headache what do I do
[01:24:24] in my fan out of my network patience is
[01:24:26] not my strength I cannot wait Brian
[01:24:28] Brian thank you very much for joining
[01:24:30] today thank you for joining Francisco a
[01:24:32] what do you think of this debate we
[01:24:35] consider in Co package optics as an
[01:24:38] intermediate point how do you feel about
[01:24:40] this yeah so I don't really view it as
[01:24:43] an intermediate point for the reason
[01:24:46] being that already within the switch
[01:24:48] people are going to M CMS just for Papa
[01:24:51] Rio you know they run a radical size
[01:24:55] they want to utilize it all for logic so
[01:24:59] you know even you know like a 50 T
[01:25:01] switch if you were doing it all copper
[01:25:03] for instance you'd have one or maybe two
[01:25:05] switch died surrounded by Sergey styles
[01:25:09] so you know Co package to me basically
[01:25:12] means you've got an MCM but instead of
[01:25:13] electrical surgery styles you get
[01:25:15] optical surgery styles and it's
[01:25:18] difficult to see what in the in the CMOS
[01:25:20] world would reverse that trend you know
[01:25:24] unless you went to dramatically larger
[01:25:25] reticles with dramatically lower defect
[01:25:29] driven or densely driven deep activity
[01:25:32] rates you're probably going to stay on
[01:25:34] an MCN style for the high density high
[01:25:38] throughput host applications for you
[01:25:41] know as far as I can imagine this is all
[01:25:44] a semi kong technology so adeno today it
[01:25:47] all goes down to try to optimize quarter
[01:25:50] we can do in a CMOS plant is that right
[01:25:52] Ryan that's certainly our view I mean
[01:25:55] we've we've you know we've long tried to
[01:25:59] make our optics as CMOS like as possible
[01:26:01] so that you know as you're trying to do
[01:26:03] this sort of this multi chip integration
[01:26:05] or single chip integration you know it's
[01:26:09] it's a common technology base and in
[01:26:11] common packaging techniques exactly my
[01:26:14] vision that's why for a meeting like
[01:26:15] this I needed to have a semiconductor
[01:26:16] company in the in the room for me I
[01:26:19] really need to understand how they see
[01:26:21] how they see the integration of optics
[01:26:23] in a semi compras is this technology
[01:26:25] really a semi con tech
[01:26:27] and for this we had the next speaker
[01:26:29] actually it had been sent from a ESC
[01:26:31] group thank you very much for joining
[01:26:33] this interesting very interesting
[01:26:35] meeting we are broadcasting live in UTV
[01:26:37] were in very interesting statements
[01:26:39] Vincent the floor and the attention of
[01:26:42] everyone is yours
[01:26:43] are we talking of a semi kong technology
[01:26:46] yes exactly
[01:26:47] yeah we are going to share some of the
[01:26:51] experience of the it is coming it is
[01:26:59] here ok again Thank You Jose and the O's
[01:27:05] in take a member today
[01:27:07] I'm Vincent in from a single and my
[01:27:12] today's topic is a something about
[01:27:14] packaging special take it you know who's
[01:27:16] taken photonic and I would like share
[01:27:19] some our development status understand
[01:27:23] the Challenger we actually faced
[01:27:27] okay so for ACCA years there's a
[01:27:31] world-leading
[01:27:31] electronic packaging company so our
[01:27:36] portfolio including the ice-t make it
[01:27:40] interesting and we also have usi so we
[01:27:45] have a simple module labor and also some
[01:27:50] system integration capability so we can
[01:27:54] say is thre so the world may be hungry
[01:27:58] one who can bring to the IC o---- state
[01:28:00] and the in this world
[01:28:03] so we already established more than 30
[01:28:07] plus years right now Bob I have a 100k
[01:28:11] employee with 90 facility in all right
[01:28:18] 990 20 Remini already reached 30 billion
[01:28:23] new starter
[01:28:25] okay mercy is the topic I want to bring
[01:28:29] today is some overview of the sewage
[01:28:33] optic integration evolution and this
[01:28:36] sounds a typical sign for patron
[01:28:40] structure and also shows some the
[01:28:44] challenge we face of the complexity and
[01:28:47] how we plan to consolidate the supply
[01:28:51] chain and that for the further cost
[01:28:54] reduction I think everyone is very
[01:29:00] familiar with least lies over the data
[01:29:03] centers switching may be tier 1 or tier
[01:29:06] 2 and how to integrate with octaves
[01:29:11] right now over the 3 3 of point 8 t
[01:29:15] sweetie we still use a front end o with
[01:29:18] plug Bo optics with long distant between
[01:29:21] sweet and optics eventually when the
[01:29:25] speed higher the higher Allah will go
[01:29:27] boo or use the same packaging to take it
[01:29:31] in the system tray the patron switch in
[01:29:34] the update Cathedral
[01:29:36] most of people believe la way or neither
[01:29:39] speed higher than 50 T switch so lowest
[01:29:44] kind of a beta computation that we've
[01:29:47] got - with lower power if the interfere
[01:29:52] the semiconductor interface can deal
[01:29:54] with the beta year but could reduce the
[01:29:59] cost significantly
[01:30:05] this slide shows the the typical cycle
[01:30:09] in gym packaging we understand typically
[01:30:13] we have the tea iced tea is tea leaves
[01:30:16] and the fiber and the Zil have a
[01:30:18] different kind of different common
[01:30:22] component by using some of advanced IC
[01:30:27] packaging technology for simple GIS depi
[01:30:31] you see actually need a really shook
[01:30:33] eastern interconnection so that we can
[01:30:35] provide the triple triple cap repeater
[01:30:38] intercom nation and laser laser actually
[01:30:44] is you still have a different kind of
[01:30:46] options within the embedded or AC also
[01:30:51] can provide the we call first level with
[01:30:53] wrist peel blister packaging
[01:30:58] maybe romantically and modulate Lord a
[01:31:02] fiber they have a different kind of a
[01:31:05] coupling way by greeting or by coupling
[01:31:10] by active or passive eventually advanced
[01:31:17] packaging will to get the nickname
[01:31:19] shrink the size later the cycle engine
[01:31:23] become small and compact and the easy to
[01:31:27] put the Gator with the switch in the
[01:31:30] same subtree
[01:31:31] the structure is still in taped pretty
[01:31:35] big size with inboard larger than one
[01:31:38] three millimeter by one millimeter so we
[01:31:44] actually still have a lot of a challenge
[01:31:48] over this kind of switch I see optical
[01:31:52] packaging for the in court because the
[01:31:55] precise of a subtree is is huge
[01:32:01] so the voltage and the relativity is
[01:32:03] still some challenge and for the
[01:32:08] solution I see in the sale is it
[01:32:11] probably is a not a kind of a single
[01:32:14] chip for the money chip so we also need
[01:32:17] a canary high-density film or interpose
[01:32:21] a layer to provide a very high density
[01:32:24] tight I inter carnation
[01:32:27] with really narrow interconnection pitch
[01:32:32] very fine line audio and still need a
[01:32:37] lot of layer count similar still kind of
[01:32:41] problem is not including the the
[01:32:44] opticals for this kind of Swedish the
[01:32:47] poor will be star from 400 600 watt we
[01:32:52] even a first on number is 1,000 word
[01:32:56] optical engine the still the key potion
[01:33:00] the zero still have little still we call
[01:33:04] one device one taken three one product
[01:33:09] so anyone choose different kind of
[01:33:12] the configuration of the also out the
[01:33:16] engine spice potato is the key and also
[01:33:21] how to do the fiber attached is a
[01:33:25] intervenes interleaf or in the final
[01:33:29] step how to deal with the small body of
[01:33:32] the fiber in the optics I sing Allah o
[01:33:34] is still kind of resolved issue
[01:33:44] the other point is we face is the supply
[01:33:48] trend right now he is still pretty
[01:33:50] pretty mental desire house piee I see
[01:33:56] manufacturer how to do the P I see ETS
[01:34:00] integration after assembly testing and
[01:34:04] the module final module assembly till
[01:34:07] all the supplier in not at the same
[01:34:11] house so a sea plane to to star we so
[01:34:17] far we have is P icees integration and
[01:34:21] step by step to kind of increase in
[01:34:25] incremental with optical assembly we saw
[01:34:29] final assembly so we provide the tool
[01:34:34] path lies the following the first is
[01:34:37] possible
[01:34:39] Piz or steamos process the play one is
[01:34:43] the what we already have is typically
[01:34:46] post is debunking process but we also
[01:34:50] can provide the various specific for
[01:34:53] optical packaging for the Invo special
[01:34:55] metal by the code letter cooking they
[01:34:59] are seeking and there's some special
[01:35:02] micromachining process a post the CMOS
[01:35:06] and we also have for the waiver assembly
[01:35:10] cos T or C wood table was simply
[01:35:13] waiverable assembly and we also invest
[01:35:17] some high a great laser attachment to
[01:35:21] and the star waves up to a component
[01:35:24] placement
[01:35:26] we really will testing icing lastly is
[01:35:29] the key we we already have a lot of
[01:35:32] electrical testing but step by step we
[01:35:35] will have a sound wave label after
[01:35:37] testing module recently we have
[01:35:41] standards thin cinder SMT and also I
[01:35:45] believe with some different kind of a
[01:35:47] fiber touch approach final optical
[01:35:52] module testing and the AC also provides
[01:35:55] the multi-discipline on T fittings
[01:35:59] stimulation generation we have very
[01:36:02] strong limp surfaces with the pole disc
[01:36:05] under of different kind of main
[01:36:08] integration so to police kind of to pass
[01:36:15] preparation we believe love will
[01:36:18] consolidate the supply chain and also
[01:36:22] provide is a significant cost retouching
[01:36:26] plane lost pretty much I had thank you
[01:36:31] so any question thank you very much
[01:36:36] Benson a great presentation okay and
[01:36:38] what about the a big challenge I mean
[01:36:40] the a big question what can you do for
[01:36:43] them and why what can them do for you
[01:36:45] what would you say to that
[01:36:49] right so AC are already engaging cobble
[01:36:57] cobble Ricci customer of the second
[01:37:01] photonic including the stop company law
[01:37:06] including the chaos in the owner and
[01:37:09] also the street is a player so also I
[01:37:17] mentioned we try to consolidate the
[01:37:20] supply chain so far I still recommend oh
[01:37:22] and stuff for we have now and kind of a
[01:37:27] step by step have a specific tool path
[01:37:32] for optics so lassie is how can we
[01:37:35] provide for this kind of society
[01:37:40] okay thank you a Mac I think you have a
[01:37:44] question for Vincent would you I think
[01:37:48] it's a 50/50 chance even a little past
[01:37:50] 100 terabits we could get away with a
[01:37:52] pluggable do you think I'm crazy
[01:37:55] I know we have to do some adjustments
[01:37:58] but I think they're minor to get to a
[01:38:00] pluggable or you confident look at the
[01:38:02] CP oh but we get past 100 terabytes
[01:38:04] thank you hmm so I've seen your kitchen
[01:38:12] is open can we start with from a kind of
[01:38:15] a kind of apprenticeship from Prabhu -
[01:38:19] Prabhu - cope a kitchen
[01:38:24] we heard some boos from cosmology will
[01:38:27] kind of makes the use those kind of a
[01:38:31] consideration learn afraid in one one
[01:38:36] switch box
[01:38:36] they all have beautiful purple they will
[01:38:41] also have some coping chain
[01:38:44] so I sing a lot I use a mix more okay
[01:38:50] and I think we have a question from a
[01:38:53] Giovanni Giovanni would you like to make
[01:38:55] the question by yourself I'm going to
[01:38:59] amuse you
[01:39:01] okay yeah yeah sure thank you
[01:39:05] well the question was related to the
[01:39:08] wafer level test and the question was
[01:39:11] basically if is perform at cassette to
[01:39:15] cassette so it's a pretty much automatic
[01:39:17] way and more especially if the test is
[01:39:21] optical electro-optical and simultaneous
[01:39:25] electro-optical tests don't concuss
[01:39:38] teacher so when we got the PhD wafer we
[01:39:42] need to have kind of TIG unit so not use
[01:39:52] so even even the device is silver he is
[01:39:55] used a cockerel so they will still have
[01:39:58] some greeting a carbon channel so we can
[01:40:02] use as a team of Fighters to dictate the
[01:40:06] signal maybe have a light source in and
[01:40:10] the license are and also proteins some
[01:40:13] electrical performance so I believe last
[01:40:17] is love will be wholesale la we would be
[01:40:21] Piz found a condo standard we know some
[01:40:25] of the company including AC they already
[01:40:28] have been leased under wave level of the
[01:40:31] testing for PhD no good I looking he
[01:40:36] said I have really big memory and in
[01:40:39] 2013 I was in Porto and a semi meeting
[01:40:42] in which AAC presented a roadmap for 3d
[01:40:45] integration and they said the future was
[01:40:47] bi CMOS by CMOS technology is that
[01:40:51] something that we see as a future
[01:40:53] solution to integrating electronics and
[01:40:56] photonics at the same wafer we do
[01:41:05] packaging integration packaging inter
[01:41:09] carnation so I think the pie samosa post
[01:41:17] P I see is in degree in testing waiver
[01:41:20] the hurry is another easy expertise
[01:41:25] marking from e VG yeah I also have a
[01:41:30] question to means to learn less
[01:41:31] presentation thinking I'm wondering and
[01:41:34] learnt a lot throughout the day very
[01:41:36] good presentations but still I see in
[01:41:39] this packaging your dressing there is
[01:41:42] still a lot on dye level so I'm
[01:41:44] wondering are there any requirements
[01:41:47] that we can keep up the wafer level
[01:41:49] manufacturing longer we are have a lot
[01:41:51] of questions on that for heterogeneous
[01:41:53] integration to smear out dial every
[01:41:56] wafer level a bit more that you can keep
[01:41:59] longer this platform the interface
[01:42:01] obviously the wafer level optics however
[01:42:05] I don't see it really happening as a
[01:42:07] requirement maybe the volumes are not
[01:42:09] high enough or how do you see that topic
[01:42:12] so on for you is the the even group and
[01:42:18] the Hawaii B group can do you can do
[01:42:21] wafer to wafer fountain even to to wafer
[01:42:25] pounding the you guys king to have any
[01:42:30] plane to a condor but the repopulation
[01:42:32] to wafer I will say it's some idea they
[01:42:38] have at least Connecticut pretty not a
[01:42:41] Tiffany need a kind of a in house to
[01:42:45] deal with heterogeneous material
[01:42:47] decoration including with them again
[01:42:50] nitride rather lazy material please go
[01:42:56] ahead
[01:42:56] yeah exactly this is one of the topics
[01:42:59] are but I would see it a little bit
[01:43:00] broader so it's generally it's a
[01:43:02] question what for the photonics there
[01:43:06] are two different platforms coming
[01:43:08] together what should be done on wafer
[01:43:10] level what is necessarily to be on dye
[01:43:13] level or is there more room in between
[01:43:16] between wafer level and tile evident in
[01:43:19] other technologies for AC or all do
[01:43:26] point we will choose for example star
[01:43:31] with star level then is a chicken weaver
[01:43:36] and finally wafer to wafer probably is
[01:43:42] the kind of mother the also favorite
[01:43:46] yeah thank you yeah thank you okay so
[01:43:53] thank you very much for this interesting
[01:43:55] discussion so what I would like we have
[01:43:58] an especial guess that just doing it Rob
[01:44:01] is done from Facebook thank you very
[01:44:05] much for joining
[01:44:07] either good morning you know drop so
[01:44:11] what would you like to comment about the
[01:44:13] the work that is a Facebook is doing in
[01:44:16] kopaka
[01:44:17] Oh Dixon what are your main interests
[01:44:18] and well you do also have here on the
[01:44:21] supply chain in photonics for me we can
[01:44:22] do yeah sure so I mean as many of you
[01:44:28] may know I only recently joined Facebook
[01:44:30] so I'm kind of in learning mode about
[01:44:33] all the teams doing here but I would I
[01:44:35] think they also probably common
[01:44:38] knowledge that between Facebook and
[01:44:40] Microsoft the two companies have
[01:44:44] released some specification guidelines
[01:44:47] on specifically on code packaged optics
[01:44:49] there's a series of three documents
[01:44:51] which are on the JTF website associated
[01:44:55] with this so I think rather than me you
[01:44:58] know state restate that I would point
[01:45:00] people to that website you know for the
[01:45:03] guidance on specifically on the
[01:45:06] challenges in the direction and jointly
[01:45:09] Facebook and Microsoft would like to see
[01:45:11] the industry take relative to earth to
[01:45:13] this field okay thank you very much Rob
[01:45:17] we will come back to you later for sure
[01:45:19] okay so let's move ahead in the program
[01:45:21] and let's go to the next speaker
[01:45:24] hey that is a grubby homeland from
[01:45:27] Sabich very good
[01:45:29] Gabriela I can see you are now if you
[01:45:31] can put the presentation mode
[01:45:40] okay perfect so can we hurt you
[01:45:46] we cannot hurt you dead to give you our
[01:45:51] nude yeah I thought you beat me thank
[01:45:57] you Anna
[01:45:58] thanks for the opportunity to explain so
[01:46:00] big as a company to you and how we can
[01:46:04] help in the field of CPR without trauma
[01:46:07] plastic resins so big is the third
[01:46:10] largest chemical company in the world
[01:46:12] we have several business units the one
[01:46:14] we focus today is the specialty bu in
[01:46:17] this bu we produce highly differentiated
[01:46:21] polymers its focus on fast-growing and
[01:46:25] disruptive end markets smart electronics
[01:46:28] autonomous driving renewable energy and
[01:46:31] obviously also Co package optics
[01:46:36] significant portfolio we offer is our so
[01:46:39] called
[01:46:39] thermal optical portfolio prison this is
[01:46:43] a wide range of plastics that can be
[01:46:45] injection molded optical elements like a
[01:46:48] lens or even a lens array to couple
[01:46:51] light from for fiber to the texture or
[01:46:54] from exo to fiber and we differentiate
[01:46:58] ourselves from other injection molding
[01:47:00] optical plastics mainly by focusing on
[01:47:03] two key attributes a very high effective
[01:47:07] index but more importantly also a very
[01:47:09] high heat resistance especially to be
[01:47:12] able to withstand typical assembly
[01:47:15] processes like surface mounting or a
[01:47:17] reflow soldering so in the title you can
[01:47:20] see that we have two distinct classes of
[01:47:25] oh sorry
[01:47:33] distinct classes of of plastics on one
[01:47:35] end we have the water clear high heat
[01:47:38] polycarbonates called lexan with less
[01:47:41] transition temperatures up to 200 degree
[01:47:43] Celsius so these are typically used for
[01:47:46] what I call code reflow soldering today
[01:47:51] is more poly heater
[01:47:53] amide resins like ultim & exton with
[01:47:55] glass transition temperatures all the
[01:47:56] way up to 270 that is you know suitable
[01:48:01] for a typical GTECH type of reflow
[01:48:04] profiles with peak temperatures up to
[01:48:08] 264 all these resins we have full data
[01:48:11] sets of optical properties and recently
[01:48:14] we added them in the SIMEX optic studio
[01:48:17] software for optical designers and i
[01:48:21] would say the big advantage of these
[01:48:23] unique to a plastics first other let's
[01:48:27] say non plastic materials like glass is
[01:48:30] the fact that you can micro injection
[01:48:32] mold the lenses in any shape or form in
[01:48:36] reflective optical elements but also in
[01:48:39] in diffractive optical elements with
[01:48:42] terrifying surface texture on this page
[01:48:46] like to show you three different
[01:48:48] applications in the photonics industry
[01:48:50] where these materials are being used or
[01:48:52] can be used first of all action is
[01:48:56] widely used in 3 meter sensor lenses
[01:48:59] especially in mobile phones our
[01:49:02] customers appreciate it here and the
[01:49:04] possibility to use free from optics on a
[01:49:07] large scale which means with only 4
[01:49:10] molding machines it can easily produce
[01:49:13] tens of million lenses in just a few
[01:49:15] months the second example on this
[01:49:19] example on this page is as well known to
[01:49:22] you these are the the lenses used in
[01:49:25] political optical transceiver which
[01:49:28] which I guess everyone knows are mostly
[01:49:32] made from
[01:49:32] ultim resin and the reason why they use
[01:49:36] the ultim here both on the dosa and the
[01:49:38] row societies is really the fact that
[01:49:41] the thermal expansion coefficient is
[01:49:44] extremely low so gives you good
[01:49:45] dimension
[01:49:46] stability at a wide temperature range
[01:49:48] next to that you can also not only move
[01:49:50] the lens but you can also mold the
[01:49:53] fixture in one shot for easy alignment
[01:49:56] of the light and then finally and you
[01:49:59] see the picture on the right that's why
[01:50:01] that's the topic of today that's where
[01:50:03] we hope we can position our material as
[01:50:06] well the optics are called packets
[01:50:08] optics where you can see in the picture
[01:50:11] that these extra lens arrays can be used
[01:50:15] potentially as interconnects so the big
[01:50:17] advantage here that the connector
[01:50:19] survives reflow soldering and there
[01:50:22] might be an alternative to so-called
[01:50:24] other ways of light coupling which I
[01:50:26] think I already heard the last half hour
[01:50:28] where you might have local connections
[01:50:31] which are sensitive to dust and other
[01:50:33] contamination and might result in
[01:50:34] significant signals so to the audience
[01:50:38] on the phone I would like you to be
[01:50:40] aware of this possibility when you
[01:50:42] consider the design of a core package
[01:50:43] optic modules that is a bit we have many
[01:50:46] contacts with global macro models that
[01:50:49] can actually work with you on cutting
[01:50:51] tools for these one example of that
[01:50:56] macro model is nailers from Japan it
[01:51:00] works with us to cut a tool for for a
[01:51:03] big I am in the same conductor industry
[01:51:06] that wants to position and multimode
[01:51:09] on-board connector in the market next
[01:51:11] year 200 light from the let's say from
[01:51:15] the fiber into the dye and then
[01:51:17] backwards from the facts off to the fire
[01:51:19] so here are let's say 16 different
[01:51:22] extreme lenses small that in connector
[01:51:26] or roughly nine to nine five four
[01:51:29] millimeter this parts we just move that
[01:51:33] a few months ago we we have done some
[01:51:35] reflow soldering tests and we looked at
[01:51:37] two things we looked at dimensional
[01:51:40] changes after reflow soldering and we we
[01:51:44] found that the delta n dimensions are
[01:51:46] very very small point one point two
[01:51:49] micron which is more than good enough
[01:51:52] for multi multi optics but we also
[01:51:55] looked at signal loss in DB because of
[01:51:59] this active layer
[01:51:59] I think the city was well I wouldn't say
[01:52:02] it's negligible but it is a very low
[01:52:04] amount of signal loss 0.2 0.3 DB so that
[01:52:08] looks all very promising so once more we
[01:52:11] like to work with more partners that
[01:52:12] work in the space of cope package optics
[01:52:15] and what we can offer you is as you can
[01:52:19] see on this page we have a full optical
[01:52:21] data of all our resins index is function
[01:52:25] of wavelength or temperature we have
[01:52:29] optical constants loaded in the in the
[01:52:31] zmax we have options to use reflective
[01:52:34] coatings when customers do that that you
[01:52:39] stick on the substrate also after and we
[01:52:43] have a center of excellence here in the
[01:52:45] Netherlands with the broad range of
[01:52:47] equipment where we can do our own reflow
[01:52:49] experiments we have confocal microscope
[01:52:51] to look at dimension stability we in in
[01:52:55] the summer we're gonna have a new micro
[01:52:57] molding machine from Arbor so yeah by
[01:53:00] disclosing you mark I would like to
[01:53:01] invite you to visit us to witness those
[01:53:04] capabilities and contact me for further
[01:53:06] questions thank you well gallery I have
[01:53:12] been have been there to the facilities
[01:53:14] and it's actually quite outstanding it's
[01:53:17] amazing to have Saavik a huge huge plane
[01:53:20] in the petrochemical industry also
[01:53:22] enabling the CP o enabling the on-board
[01:53:24] optics and I know you have been status
[01:53:27] quo put you in the agenda now you have
[01:53:28] been working with many semiconductor
[01:53:31] manufacturers actually quite public your
[01:53:33] work with STMicroelectronics the
[01:53:35] question the was raised before is about
[01:53:38] the cost or is about the losses when it
[01:53:40] comes to cost is the onboard optics for
[01:53:45] you
[01:53:45] acute challenge well good question of
[01:53:49] course diamond and the resin prices is
[01:53:51] higher than standard bombers but
[01:53:53] obviously we should think in part price
[01:53:55] right so it is really the cost is mainly
[01:53:58] in the ratio between the part and the
[01:54:01] sprue and runners so some boulders are
[01:54:04] able to produce one part with only one
[01:54:06] grand extrusion runners which which
[01:54:08] makes the price of an award connector
[01:54:09] you know five cents max
[01:54:12] other motors I do need bigger runners
[01:54:15] and biggest proof and then of course the
[01:54:17] yields go down and then the price can go
[01:54:19] up to 10 to 20 cents but these are the
[01:54:22] typical price ranges that you should
[01:54:24] think about extra price when it comes to
[01:54:26] reliability and when it comes to
[01:54:28] long-term stability of course this is
[01:54:30] the solution to have found is the price
[01:54:33] to pay we have a question for you from
[01:54:35] from Horford HHI Marty she'll thank you
[01:54:38] very much very interesting presentation
[01:54:40] do you also two waveguides from your
[01:54:43] material and if yes what as a DB per
[01:54:45] centimeter yeah good question no we
[01:54:49] don't have resins with a very high Delta
[01:54:52] in refractive index so I think we tried
[01:54:56] it a few years ago but it's something
[01:54:57] that we leave to to other companies so
[01:54:59] we really focus on the lenses and the
[01:55:01] optical elements okay thank you thank
[01:55:05] you very much and well so we have today
[01:55:06] in the room a company that I've been
[01:55:08] seeking already for a few years people
[01:55:09] know that Applied Materials is going to
[01:55:12] these key companies who who connects the
[01:55:14] photonic industry and the semiconductor
[01:55:16] industry I think we have from applying
[01:55:18] material today your new friend Siva
[01:55:21] thank you very much for joining today
[01:55:22] what what did you join a meeting like
[01:55:24] this one and working on corporations
[01:55:26] would you like to start afterwards Thank
[01:55:29] You materials you know how appointment I
[01:55:37] mean everybody knows apply materials in
[01:55:39] the industry and you know we are trying
[01:55:42] to focus a little more on technologies
[01:55:49] like silicon photonics trying to
[01:55:52] understand not just from the wafer fab
[01:55:54] but also from the packaging side that
[01:55:57] drives newer newer stacks and your
[01:56:01] architectures to make Co packaging
[01:56:03] technologies available to the industries
[01:56:06] so my effort is to understand you know
[01:56:12] what are these your architectures
[01:56:15] bringing in in terms of challenges to
[01:56:17] the wafer processing and wafer level
[01:56:21] packaging and how would you know
[01:56:24] applied
[01:56:25] partner with it companies to enable some
[01:56:29] of these new developments on the
[01:56:32] packaging side having applied materials
[01:56:35] in the photonic in 3d circuit community
[01:56:37] in the silicon photonics and indium
[01:56:38] phosphide communities it is it is
[01:56:41] priceless so welcome welcome to the epic
[01:56:43] family and I'm gonna send you some of
[01:56:46] the people who you are going to work
[01:56:47] together in the future and I have
[01:56:48] accessories all the way from beautiful
[01:56:51] sweet salon in the room how did you find
[01:56:53] the video so far and what kind of
[01:56:55] cooperations introductions that you're
[01:56:56] going to ask for me to do afterwards I
[01:56:58] mean this is this is so like this is so
[01:57:03] Shiva first and then we go to Munich Eva
[01:57:05] sorry so yeah this is this is a great
[01:57:09] opportunity you know for me to you know
[01:57:11] get get used to and learn all the all
[01:57:17] the challenges that are being worked on
[01:57:20] and but definitely would love to learn
[01:57:24] how these requirements are going to
[01:57:26] drive the drive the process requirements
[01:57:32] that you know somewhat like a plane
[01:57:34] materials good address thank you very
[01:57:36] much you're gonna have sooner meeting in
[01:57:37] which I want you to have a presentation
[01:57:38] I'm going to contact you about this but
[01:57:40] immune from accessories in Switzerland
[01:57:43] this meeting so far what kind of
[01:57:44] cooperation so you like to start right
[01:57:46] after Thank You Jose and thank you Anna
[01:57:49] for when I did sneak him so as you
[01:57:53] exciting me advertised we are very good
[01:57:56] in the microbe ticks yes so we have we
[01:57:59] are expert in micro ticks but here in
[01:58:01] the back is the end integrated photonics
[01:58:04] we are looking for something more
[01:58:06] because we can do by the hour
[01:58:09] MEMS foundry services we can do
[01:58:11] something more like mechanical teachers
[01:58:14] metal pets for electrical connections
[01:58:17] also the soldering so assembly or
[01:58:21] integration point of view we want to
[01:58:22] have more collaboration with consortium
[01:58:25] members in Kabul or integrated photonics
[01:58:27] modules so that's what we can offer and
[01:58:31] so while we want to hear from you more
[01:58:34] about nothing more than optics but other
[01:58:38] things like
[01:58:39] and features or electrical connections
[01:58:41] as well so which we can support for you
[01:58:43] for from the micro fix manufacturer
[01:58:46] point of view do you feel that you're
[01:58:47] getting enough information from the
[01:58:50] let's say the COBOL partners or the CPU
[01:58:53] industry in general to design your macro
[01:58:56] optics to their specifications yes or no
[01:59:01] because the we have established
[01:59:03] connections with our customers Freeza
[01:59:05] partially involved in those consortiums
[01:59:08] so we have some informations but we are
[01:59:12] not fully integrated in the standard
[01:59:15] relations or like specification settings
[01:59:17] so this is a motivation to join this
[01:59:20] meeting to establish more contacts and
[01:59:23] more informations more involvement in
[01:59:26] this consortium III mean like in the
[01:59:29] more in the best passenger seat ever so
[01:59:32] from my passenger seat I can tell you
[01:59:34] that that is not enough information we
[01:59:35] need to increase the amount of your
[01:59:37] mission being shared I'm gonna go to the
[01:59:39] Granada key companies in manufacturing
[01:59:41] optics or glass in the world shot I'm
[01:59:44] gonna go to Tobias coach thank you very
[01:59:46] much for joining and represent shot at
[01:59:49] this meeting on CP on Kibaki optics what
[01:59:52] kind of cooperation so far you think we
[01:59:54] can make after this meeting the vias we
[02:00:00] have you mute
[02:00:00] you need to amuse we can hear you yes
[02:00:05] obvious I still cannot hear you so may
[02:00:07] come but I may come back to you in the
[02:00:09] next Q&A sorry
[02:00:11] no yes no no it works sorry yeah thanks
[02:00:15] a lot for your introduction and also
[02:00:17] thanks for organizing this nice meeting
[02:00:21] short already is long has long history
[02:00:23] also in beta metal objects and my part
[02:00:27] is a bit different I am drawing short no
[02:00:29] for one year and I'm looking more into
[02:00:32] the semiconductor part and I would like
[02:00:35] to understand at the moment where is the
[02:00:39] industry standing in terms of
[02:00:41] integration of optical communication
[02:00:44] especially inside of the PCBs I think
[02:00:47] the presentation from bioptics was very
[02:00:50] interesting for me to see that there is
[02:00:53] already some products available but I
[02:00:56] also see that at the moment the end
[02:01:01] customers are missing at least this is
[02:01:03] what I also understood out of the
[02:01:05] discussions here so this would be for me
[02:01:07] interesting to get more context in this
[02:01:09] direction to understand if there is any
[02:01:13] need also to introduce the packaging
[02:01:18] include the PCB and also introducing the
[02:01:21] PCBs in this market or is there any
[02:01:24] blocking points at the moment from the
[02:01:25] technology side you know this is blank
[02:01:29] he looks like his random than just
[02:01:31] asking you question whether this is
[02:01:32] planned because I wanted to get exactly
[02:01:34] what you just told me to introduce Brian
[02:01:37] Brian you see we don't have enough
[02:01:39] information Cisco can lead the way on
[02:01:42] this Cisco can tell us what kind of
[02:01:44] optics we need for the co package optics
[02:01:47] is great to have you Brian here with us
[02:01:49] the floor and the attention of everyone
[02:01:51] goes to the giant Cisco thank you it's
[02:01:56] no pressure there let's see no pressure
[02:01:58] at all
[02:02:08] so yeah sir so thank you
[02:02:10] very much for having me so prior to
[02:02:14] Luke's Tara was part of look Sarah teen
[02:02:16] that came in through the acquisition so
[02:02:18] you know Co package optics integrated
[02:02:22] optics whatever you want to call it is
[02:02:23] something that we've thought of for
[02:02:26] quite some time and you know even in the
[02:02:30] conventional optic space we've always
[02:02:32] tried to pursue the technology with a
[02:02:35] view towards you know future integration
[02:02:38] deeper into the system our our general
[02:02:43] approach and a version of this was shown
[02:02:45] earlier but our general approach is to
[02:02:48] you know make the optical technology
[02:02:53] behave as much like just a pure
[02:02:55] electrical technology in every way
[02:02:58] possible in terms of how its
[02:03:00] manufactured at the silicon level in
[02:03:04] terms of where it's manufactured again
[02:03:06] using the high volume CMOS boundaries
[02:03:09] test strategy you know getting very good
[02:03:12] way for skill test coverage electrically
[02:03:14] and optically and you know integration
[02:03:19] and you know what you see here is a you
[02:03:24] know integration exercise in the middle
[02:03:25] you see an MCM which you know aside from
[02:03:29] the fibers coming on the side could be
[02:03:32] you know we hope looks not that
[02:03:35] different Ferguson electrical MCM you
[02:03:38] know so at the heart of it you'd have a
[02:03:40] switch die or maybe several surrounded
[02:03:44] by Surrey styles so you know I mentioned
[02:03:48] previously in a question-and-answer that
[02:03:50] people are they are using thirty Styles
[02:03:52] for electrical IO
[02:03:55] here the differences use them for
[02:03:57] optical i/o one of the things that you
[02:04:02] know maybe it doesn't jump out
[02:04:03] immediately from this but is sort of our
[02:04:07] intent here is you know we try to push
[02:04:09] the tile density as high as not as high
[02:04:14] as we can but but but reasonably high
[02:04:17] that brings benefits in terms of cost
[02:04:21] and forms the tile itself
[02:04:23] but really what we're trying to do there
[02:04:25] is minimize the number of optical
[02:04:28] attaches because as you go through the
[02:04:31] assembly flow that is one thing that it
[02:04:34] is done sequentially an optical attach
[02:04:38] imeem they could be high yielding but
[02:04:39] they're not perfect so the more
[02:04:40] sequential steps you have with some
[02:04:42] you'll pull out the worse than that
[02:04:44] yield would be so this concept here
[02:04:47] which was a 51 T switch you know we're
[02:04:51] targeting four tiles at twelvepointeight
[02:04:53] T mostly to keep us - for optical
[02:04:56] attaches and you know it's hard to see
[02:05:01] you know if you look at you look in but
[02:05:03] basically these black you know you see
[02:05:05] all the fiber harnesses coming into the
[02:05:07] IC and you see kind of four black
[02:05:10] aggregation points those connect into
[02:05:14] the if you look really closely you can
[02:05:17] see if I have a laser pointer available
[02:05:19] don't know how to do that well if you
[02:05:22] look really close kind of below the blue
[02:05:23] arrow you can kind of see the fiber
[02:05:25] interface to the IC and that's a single
[02:05:27] attachment and a single bond
[02:05:30] one of the things I think I should
[02:05:32] correct I think earlier was suggested
[02:05:35] that these use edge coupling they don't
[02:05:38] it's actually vertical surface coupling
[02:05:40] and that's something we've used for
[02:05:43] quite a while you know primarily because
[02:05:46] of its manufacturing benefits it you
[02:05:49] know allows you to get full way for
[02:05:51] scale testability of your IO that also
[02:05:54] provides a very good large surface area
[02:05:56] to bond to when you're coming in with a
[02:05:58] coupler you know as we look to push
[02:06:00] higher and higher density it allows you
[02:06:02] actually to scale in two dimensions to
[02:06:03] if you're trying to get more fibers into
[02:06:06] a tight footprint
[02:06:11] see em there's really two additional
[02:06:13] elements so the fiber harness takes you
[02:06:15] to two locations takes you the face
[02:06:17] plate and it takes you to your light
[02:06:21] sources the remote light source for us
[02:06:24] is important because one of the things
[02:06:27] we want to do in an MCM is have a
[02:06:29] uniform thermal environment you don't
[02:06:31] see it here it's removed but there's a
[02:06:32] common lid in the common heat sink we're
[02:06:34] not trying to segregate out the optics
[02:06:37] from the switch they're all expected to
[02:06:40] run hot
[02:06:42] but to do that we need to get the laser
[02:06:43] out there because laser efficiency and
[02:06:45] reliability drops off quite dramatically
[02:06:47] the temperature in this design we have
[02:06:51] them in a QFP form factor that's a form
[02:06:53] factor of convenience it doesn't have to
[02:06:55] be that it could be anything it's really
[02:06:57] just a collection of CWM laser is
[02:06:59] packaged up with a control interface for
[02:07:03] some diagnostics
[02:07:05] you
[02:07:08] know as we look at the key key
[02:07:11] you know as we look at the key key
[02:07:11] components I mean that there's lots of
[02:07:14] lots of nuance to this for sure but you
[02:07:17] know on the silicon photonics you know
[02:07:18] we want a technology allows do very
[02:07:20] dense integration both lots of lanes
[02:07:24] inside of the tiles themselves but also
[02:07:26] getting it very close to the host I see
[02:07:28] you know one of the big reasons to
[02:07:31] pursue Co package optics is to eliminate
[02:07:36] the power consumption inherent in
[02:07:40] electrical surtees from a switch to an
[02:07:43] optical pile for instance and to do that
[02:07:47] you want to get them really close
[02:07:48] together but are also needs field at
[02:07:51] Haller 8 tolerate high temperatures you
[02:07:53] know the switch you cannot keep a switch
[02:07:57] you cannot cool it that if temperatures
[02:07:58] historically mean cool optics too which
[02:08:01] means you need to get the optics field
[02:08:03] to run as hot as that if you want to if
[02:08:04] you want to integrate you know I know
[02:08:08] there has been some investigation to
[02:08:09] creating segregated thermal environment
[02:08:11] so there might be some some merit in
[02:08:14] that but even still trying to create you
[02:08:17] know trying to get something like a 70
[02:08:19] degree optics into that package and
[02:08:21] maintain that environment is would be
[02:08:24] very difficult ambition to realize on
[02:08:28] the light source who wanted efficient
[02:08:29] you know we want to be able to push as
[02:08:30] many lanes per laser as possible this is
[02:08:33] something we've done for quite a while
[02:08:34] in parallel single mode optics you know
[02:08:37] and as technologies improve the amount
[02:08:40] of throughput per laser has increased
[02:08:42] from 100 Gig to 400 gig and hopefully
[02:08:46] beyond it's going to vary depending the
[02:08:50] application you know clearly parallel
[02:08:52] optics may see more than for instance
[02:08:55] multi-wavelength optics if for no other
[02:08:58] reason the multivator like optics you
[02:08:59] have the additional losses of
[02:09:00] muckety-mucks some where the path
[02:09:03] reliability is very important to it
[02:09:06] needs to be actually considerably better
[02:09:08] than pluggable optics because while
[02:09:11] light sources can be serviceable you
[02:09:14] know people are going to people will
[02:09:16] approach co package optics with a
[02:09:18] certain air pensive some somebody
[02:09:19] usually very bullish about it and
[02:09:21] they'll be able to take risk
[02:09:22] but the but the broader market you know
[02:09:24] they take the risks when they're
[02:09:25] absolutely necessary so you know if you
[02:09:29] come in with a solution that doesn't
[02:09:30] show it's really reliable you're not
[02:09:32] gonna touch a you know the fact that you
[02:09:33] can't replace optics and more ease and
[02:09:34] the concern it might give them pause you
[02:09:39] know the light source I mentioned
[02:09:40] temperature above you know remote laser
[02:09:43] kind of takes care of that you you'll
[02:09:46] have a unique thermal environment for
[02:09:48] the laser or gonna have nothing else
[02:09:49] heating up other than itself
[02:09:51] alternatively if you were to go the
[02:09:53] integrated laser approach you need
[02:09:54] something thermally insensitive it's not
[02:09:58] the approach we're pursuing you know but
[02:10:00] it's you know would be one possibility
[02:10:04] in terms of the interfaces the
[02:10:06] electrically oh you know 112 Giga xsr
[02:10:09] seems to be the most common choice out
[02:10:11] there certainly if you talk about look
[02:10:13] at the switch to like an ecosystem that
[02:10:15] scenes that people eat what people are
[02:10:18] focused on and you know to work
[02:10:20] reasonably well it's pretty power
[02:10:21] efficient you know I've heard numbers in
[02:10:23] the one to one and a half leakage up a
[02:10:24] bit range definitely offers pretty
[02:10:26] compelling benefits versus you know like
[02:10:30] a VSR style surgeries as is typical for
[02:10:33] ship to module interconnects on the
[02:10:37] optical a oh that big thing is going to
[02:10:39] be that it complied some standard you
[02:10:43] know most liquid 400 ER four or fr4 you
[02:10:47] know there might be faster ones coming
[02:10:48] but you know as this gets deployed it's
[02:10:51] going to be deployed you know it's not
[02:10:53] gonna be totally everywhere all at once
[02:10:54] it's going to interrupt with legacy
[02:10:55] equipment with lower density switches
[02:10:59] for instance that use pluggable optics
[02:11:01] you know it needs to it needs to operate
[02:11:03] as part of sort of the broader DC
[02:11:06] ecosystem
[02:11:11] and that is all I have okay thank you
[02:11:14] very much Brian great presentation and
[02:11:17] well let me to ask you the question what
[02:11:19] these companies can do for disco for you
[02:11:24] you know be honest it's not question I
[02:11:26] thought it about before your nan here I
[02:11:28] mean the one thing that I personally
[02:11:30] worry most about you know for Coke
[02:11:33] package opt is that everyone goes off
[02:11:35] and chases their own interface standards
[02:11:38] you know proprietary optical DMVs or
[02:11:40] some specialty electrical interface
[02:11:43] you could very easily end up with an
[02:11:45] ecosystem where no two parts talk to one
[02:11:47] another and I think that's going to be
[02:11:50] bad for the players in the ecosystem
[02:11:51] it's also going to be bad for the end
[02:11:54] users because you know no matter how
[02:11:57] compelling an option a solution may be
[02:12:00] you know there always wants some degree
[02:12:02] of multi-source you know they want to be
[02:12:03] able to entertain multiple different
[02:12:05] so what providers multiples and optical
[02:12:07] providers multiple different people
[02:12:09] managing packing and switch integration
[02:12:13] so I think keeping that in mind as as
[02:12:16] all of us progress will be very valuable
[02:12:20] if we want to see this stuff deploy into
[02:12:22] place soon
[02:12:26] okay thank you then I think we have a
[02:12:28] question from Jim from Italy do you want
[02:12:32] to do ask your agent all right thank you
[02:12:35] well I think he partially already
[02:12:37] answered it so he mentioned his
[02:12:39] preference right now is the excess or
[02:12:41] electrical interface so my question was
[02:12:43] earlier before it was your turn when
[02:12:45] Jose was couldn't just couldn't wait to
[02:12:46] talk to you you know I'm glad he didn't
[02:12:50] the you mentioned that you're taking you
[02:12:53] look at these modern switch ICS and
[02:12:55] they're just ringed with these series
[02:12:57] and they suck all the power and they
[02:12:58] suck all your die area and it ain't
[02:13:00] cheap at seven millimeters or less so
[02:13:02] you talked about this on those MCM
[02:13:05] modules those those sir DS going away
[02:13:08] not being optical triplets instead but a
[02:13:12] lot of the implications I've personally
[02:13:14] been privy to so far I've still had the
[02:13:18] thirties there and I I think it's just
[02:13:20] because it takes a huge effort to get a
[02:13:23] custom switch made if you want to get
[02:13:25] rid of those thirties but I guess my
[02:13:27] general question to you is how much of
[02:13:29] the Surtees really goes away when you're
[02:13:32] driving the chip lists because you still
[02:13:33] have to do p.m. for you still have to do
[02:13:35] framing up there's still a lot of stuff
[02:13:38] being written into I Triple E interfaces
[02:13:40] because you mentioned it's got to be a
[02:13:41] student interface so everyone can talk
[02:13:42] to everyone there's a lot of stuff
[02:13:44] written into there that is still gonna
[02:13:46] require asserting so how much sureties
[02:13:49] really goes away when you replace that
[02:13:50] but you know when you when you put the
[02:13:52] optics right on there I mean the biggest
[02:13:54] difference if you look at if you look at
[02:13:59] pretty much any pam-4 sergey's that's
[02:14:00] you know like a hungry pan for Sydney
[02:14:02] that's meant to go across the PCB a oh
[02:14:06] they're very equalizer heavy
[02:14:10] specifications they almost exclusively
[02:14:13] drive ABC plus DSP based implementations
[02:14:17] to make the channel work and those drive
[02:14:20] a lot of power they do have a lot of
[02:14:21] area to but they specially Drive a lot
[02:14:23] of power so as you go to an X s are you
[02:14:26] go to a very simple very very very
[02:14:29] simple analog style interface it's still
[02:14:31] camp four but it has minimal
[02:14:33] Equalization requirements not one that
[02:14:36] you need to go to the digital link to
[02:14:37] solve
[02:14:38] so that's formal
[02:14:39] the power savings comes from you still
[02:14:40] have you know the higher-level MACD cftc
[02:14:43] they're still there because those are
[02:14:45] used for the optical links as well but
[02:14:50] you know the the the continuing trend in
[02:14:53] electrical I Oh has been to just throw
[02:14:56] more and more equalization into links
[02:14:58] and you know it's a trend that's going
[02:15:00] to just I don't know it's gonna break
[02:15:03] things but it's getting so much harder
[02:15:06] to manage that with each generation
[02:15:08] you're gonna reach a point that it's no
[02:15:10] longer worth it alright awesome thank
[02:15:13] you okay and I think Jose has a question
[02:15:18] from the YouTube universe universe I
[02:15:22] love when you say like that
[02:15:23] Oh question from Canada from a company
[02:15:25] called I ponics Francois Francie you're
[02:15:27] so the CEO of I polished phenomena do
[02:15:30] you see Co package optics go the route
[02:15:33] of CWDM for or CWA dm8 well I think
[02:15:39] it'll go the route of I mean it'll
[02:15:41] always want to be a standard interface
[02:15:43] that's interoperable with a pluggable
[02:15:45] solution so insofar as they're numb
[02:15:49] numerous standards based on seed waiting
[02:15:51] for and I don't know if there's any well
[02:15:55] I'm not sprawling unfair I don't there's
[02:15:57] only not any I Triple E center somewhere
[02:15:58] everyone CWA I think seed report
[02:16:00] probably more likely candidates but if
[02:16:04] there were to be standards the utilize
[02:16:07] cw8 it could be a viable candidate well
[02:16:11] alright a I'm going to ask something
[02:16:14] else from my side it is a very important
[02:16:16] question for me
[02:16:16] so basically cisco acquired lost era now
[02:16:20] I don't know if eventually will finish
[02:16:21] with the Acacia thing it looks silicon
[02:16:24] photonics is the driver of future a
[02:16:27] transceiver in the vision of Cisco we
[02:16:29] have seen a huge development on indium
[02:16:31] phosphide platforms for the future of
[02:16:33] integrating the laser into interesting
[02:16:36] epitaxy as the photonic internet
[02:16:37] circuits and actually this would solve
[02:16:39] some of your challenges in your slide is
[02:16:43] there a vision towards photonic
[02:16:45] integration with only India's phosphide
[02:16:47] or indium phosphide without silicon
[02:16:52] not a vision I've had I mean in Cisco is
[02:16:54] a very large company with a lot of very
[02:16:57] smart people in it so you know wouldn't
[02:16:59] surprise me or someone and add that
[02:17:00] vision but you know my focus mostly on
[02:17:02] silicon photonics we have a great
[02:17:06] community in Europe on the indium
[02:17:08] phosphide integration with success
[02:17:09] stories like effect photonics or
[02:17:11] infinita but from offer a check has been
[02:17:14] driving the foundry services this
[02:17:16] marketing what can we tell Brian about
[02:17:19] indium phosphide added value to the
[02:17:22] next-generation transceivers yeah
[02:17:24] potential would be of course the
[02:17:26] integration of a laser into the circuit
[02:17:30] but to be honest when the operating
[02:17:35] temperature is 105 degrees this is a
[02:17:37] very tough challenge and as I am roughly
[02:17:41] estimate that is already 64 fibers going
[02:17:45] in and out of this module and other two
[02:17:48] fibers or one fiber for the laser
[02:17:50] doesn't really drive up the cost
[02:17:52] significantly so in this special case I
[02:17:55] don't feel too happy to say but I would
[02:17:58] probably silicon photonics it's a better
[02:18:00] solution that's great I mean I do
[02:18:03] silicon photonics can integrate a laser
[02:18:05] and the best 35 material for the laser
[02:18:07] synthetic on grain line is indium
[02:18:09] phosphate so this business for everyone
[02:18:10] I think I would like to introduce you to
[02:18:12] a company all the way from icon
[02:18:16] photonics company packaging big cells a
[02:18:18] wafer level a Carlos thank you very much
[02:18:20] for joining today what would you like to
[02:18:22] do with with Cisco I have you muted
[02:18:28] still yes
[02:18:30] hi thank you very much for this to talk
[02:18:36] a bit about icon at onyx is a
[02:18:37] technological startup
[02:18:39] spin-off from a senior's Research Center
[02:18:42] that embarrassed of terrorists in France
[02:18:44] and what we do is to bring collective
[02:18:48] manufacturing using micro fabrication
[02:18:51] process to the photonics packaging
[02:18:54] issues basically our vision is to bring
[02:18:57] the first step to bring optics to the to
[02:19:00] the chip so we we do on chip
[02:19:04] Tweedy polymer micro optics technology
[02:19:08] directly a temperature level often ship
[02:19:09] so before dicing at the wafer level we
[02:19:13] use a little feed process to do that so
[02:19:15] it's really collective manufacturing
[02:19:17] process and then we using this this this
[02:19:21] layer of this polymer layer we can go to
[02:19:24] the next step which is for instance
[02:19:26] wafer bonding bringing a second feature
[02:19:29] using wafer bonding where we can have
[02:19:32] these big groups to bring the fiber into
[02:19:36] these these optics so basically we do
[02:19:38] everything our vision is to do
[02:19:40] collective manufacturing to wear forever
[02:19:42] because at the end of the day you need
[02:19:44] to think about cost effective solutions
[02:19:46] for for high performance we level but
[02:19:49] you know they also cognitive
[02:19:51] cost-effective solutions so thank you
[02:19:54] not to youth was a thank you very much
[02:19:59] have no say great representation of your
[02:20:02] company if someone in their in the
[02:20:04] throne room wants to wants to connect
[02:20:08] with Carlos please send me an email and
[02:20:09] I will make the introduction and you can
[02:20:11] know more about this technology okay so
[02:20:13] let's move for her ahead in the program
[02:20:15] so next speaker is a Ruth Hobart a CEO
[02:20:20] from multiphoton optics so if you want
[02:20:24] to share your screen hopefully so you
[02:20:29] see it yes very very well we can see it
[02:20:34] if you can go to presentation mode yes
[02:20:38] here we are
[02:20:40] okay very good so you can either tell me
[02:20:44] no it's better yes you're gonna start
[02:20:46] today I give all my heart blood because
[02:20:50] I see something happening which I'm
[02:20:52] dreaming of for like 20 years now it's
[02:20:55] about changing the paradigms and using
[02:20:58] 3d lithography for data calm or tilikum
[02:21:01] or it doesn't matter packaging and it
[02:21:04] started many many years ago and I just
[02:21:09] show you the history of what we did
[02:21:12] started when I came back from from the
[02:21:15] US with wafer scale of
[02:21:17] so this is for for actually telecom
[02:21:20] application was awarded in 2002
[02:21:22] cooperation with Dallas and IOF Indiana
[02:21:25] then we did some
[02:21:28] wave guides already in 2002 with TPA
[02:21:31] writing like direct lithography 2004 to
[02:21:37] 2008 we did works with your name
[02:21:42] research and also a TNS company to do an
[02:21:47] electro-optical board which which is
[02:21:49] actually shown here so having six wave
[02:21:52] guides and that was at that time 40 42
[02:21:56] gigabits per second and we continued
[02:22:00] with doing multimode wave cards so this
[02:22:03] is a cross-section of a collaboration I
[02:22:06] did with Fujitsu Siemens in USA on a
[02:22:08] printed circuit board so here you see
[02:22:10] the wave guides and that what they
[02:22:12] created us package switch to TPA and
[02:22:17] direct laser riding again coming from
[02:22:19] single mode to multimode wave guides in
[02:22:23] in in in polymer like materials
[02:22:26] collaboration with Khristenko sloop ki t
[02:22:30] 2013 2014 showing adiabatic coupling of
[02:22:34] wave guides and all these works were
[02:22:36] presented at conferences so this one was
[02:22:39] presented in 2014 at photonics West 2016
[02:22:44] using Michael Cawley made a concept
[02:22:47] together with Johnny previa from C needs
[02:22:51] and and from sorry from
[02:22:56] STMicroelectronics to bend the light
[02:22:58] just around the corner and that is that
[02:23:00] is a example of our collaboration
[02:23:03] partner and and production partner and
[02:23:06] an A+ that is a H wave H laser with a
[02:23:10] little little lens on top of it and when
[02:23:14] you see that is I started very early to
[02:23:16] to create a vision and this version
[02:23:18] people thought we are completely nuts
[02:23:20] but I dreamed of creating optical
[02:23:24] packages which can be assembled just
[02:23:27] like electronic components and it
[02:23:30] started very early and
[02:23:31] at that point in 2006-7 I started to
[02:23:35] think about spinning spinning out a
[02:23:37] company which which we did in 2013-2014
[02:23:42] so here so you see there was quite some
[02:23:44] years there was no market people did not
[02:23:47] understand what we do and so on and so
[02:23:49] on man what we think is we are all there
[02:23:52] to create that and why do we think that
[02:23:55] so here is an example of what is the
[02:23:58] typical legacy processes and this has
[02:24:00] been published a lot and what we did in
[02:24:05] 2006-7
[02:24:06] together with 80 and as a T&S in Austria
[02:24:09] was just riding Direct riding the wave
[02:24:12] guides and the printed circuit board
[02:24:14] which which we which we did there had 12
[02:24:18] centimeter wave guides and you still can
[02:24:21] see them so they travelled a lot through
[02:24:23] all the exhibitions and I found a
[02:24:26] company who is willing to to share their
[02:24:29] equipment to determine whether they are
[02:24:32] still alive so we doubt it because
[02:24:34] everybody touched it and we showed it
[02:24:36] around and it's now like 13 years around
[02:24:39] but you still see the wave that's very
[02:24:41] very clear and the process we just used
[02:24:44] is like three step processes and we we
[02:24:47] also use intrinsic processes of the of
[02:24:49] the entire production line in the in the
[02:24:52] company so now I was awarded a lot so I
[02:24:56] received the Fraunhofer reward we
[02:24:58] received the green photonics award so
[02:24:59] this has to be 2013 and 19 2014 we were
[02:25:03] awarded again for that so what did we do
[02:25:06] and I just show you hopefully that runs
[02:25:09] is we actually can can orchestrate the
[02:25:14] beam by direct laser riding as you see
[02:25:17] here in this animation so you see here a
[02:25:19] wave which is completely a weird word
[02:25:23] transformation but you see them you see
[02:25:25] you go up and then you you can turn it
[02:25:28] basically being capable of of touching
[02:25:31] and of connecting almost everything with
[02:25:34] with our machine and that's the reason
[02:25:36] why we are hardware supplier at first
[02:25:38] but we do lots of applications with our
[02:25:40] customers so the idea was here here
[02:25:45] the the original Ave or the grading
[02:25:48] coupler and what we did is we we made it
[02:25:50] pluggable to some extent here and that
[02:25:53] is just an image I borrowed from from
[02:25:55] Intel but it's all about all about the
[02:25:58] cost the time the flexibility so what we
[02:26:01] what we strongly believe is that we can
[02:26:04] be very very flexible very very fast we
[02:26:07] simplify the processes to get rid of
[02:26:09] most of the interfaces so that was done
[02:26:13] in the in this approach as well so that
[02:26:16] you basically can get rid of rid of
[02:26:19] sources for failure and so on and this
[02:26:23] process can be ideally automated and
[02:26:26] also fiber handling is an issue and
[02:26:30] Tosca bomb come from from if I contact
[02:26:33] pointed that out today but there are
[02:26:35] ways in our machine to handle that and
[02:26:38] that is I think all I would like to show
[02:26:41] you except for the examples like wafer
[02:26:45] scale at limiting coupling than the
[02:26:50] wexel coupling LED coupling and so on
[02:26:53] and so on so whatever whatever you think
[02:26:55] is is is possible can be done and it can
[02:27:00] be integrated to a very very very high
[02:27:02] extent and that is very important to us
[02:27:05] and we are looking for a companies so we
[02:27:08] are now started to open for strategic
[02:27:11] very strategic partners and strategic
[02:27:13] investment because now is the time to
[02:27:16] move on and that's the partners and the
[02:27:20] publications which are related to all
[02:27:22] these works I've shown you so far so
[02:27:24] thank you very much
[02:27:26] Inc you very much a route so well can
[02:27:29] you tell us more about these strategic
[02:27:31] partners that you are in trying to get
[02:27:33] them what kind of companies yeah so so
[02:27:36] ideally ideally they have what we do not
[02:27:39] have so what we do not have is packaging
[02:27:42] we do not have all the infrastructure
[02:27:44] which comes along with this type of
[02:27:46] packaging so we are just a slice in this
[02:27:50] entire value chain so but we we have
[02:27:53] proven over the last 20 years that all
[02:27:56] these all these things
[02:27:58] be connected can be miniaturized can be
[02:28:01] used by very very let's say smart
[02:28:05] materials coupled with smart production
[02:28:08] is a very very powerful tool but we are
[02:28:11] just a slice so we need to stretch our
[02:28:13] our arms out now because now it's the
[02:28:17] time to get that done and we are very
[02:28:21] I'm very excited about today's meeting
[02:28:23] actually it's it's really I'm burning
[02:28:27] interesting given my route for this and
[02:28:30] for your comments okay
[02:28:31] a more questions for route is there any
[02:28:34] other comment or question okay because
[02:28:38] if not I would like to present to you
[02:28:41] one new member of epic so Philippe from
[02:28:46] skyline optics is this a good moment for
[02:28:51] you to present Philippe okay maybe not a
[02:28:55] we will come back later with Philippe
[02:28:58] and don't in from from us connect aren't
[02:29:03] you here okay so maybe not we also
[02:29:12] welcome Philippe we have him hello how
[02:29:18] are you doing creep follow you very good
[02:29:21] so when I was just saying that you are a
[02:29:24] new member of a big thank you for
[02:29:26] joining and well maybe it's a good
[02:29:27] moment for you to introduce what your
[02:29:29] company is doing and what are you
[02:29:31] looking for in these in this meeting as
[02:29:34] you know we are involved in the optical
[02:29:36] transceiver since a more than 10 years
[02:29:38] now and we have been involved in new
[02:29:41] technology also and as you know we are
[02:29:43] based in Europe and you know that Europe
[02:29:45] is trying to go ahead and try to show
[02:29:48] some new technology also then we have
[02:29:51] been working with some companies already
[02:29:52] here I don't see them in your core here
[02:29:55] but we've been making some
[02:29:56] co-development with effect photonics you
[02:29:58] know a base Netherlands the UK on peak
[02:30:02] technology we work with I'll make in
[02:30:05] Luverne also on FPGA and Asics also and
[02:30:08] then we are very interested in Co
[02:30:10] packaging because you are looking
[02:30:11] for for new technology also to come with
[02:30:14] some unique design for specific market
[02:30:17] also and for us it's very important to
[02:30:19] be part of the epics ensure since one
[02:30:22] year a has been directing more and
[02:30:24] more on the more oriented in
[02:30:27] telecommunication with no silicon
[02:30:28] photonics peak technology with Co
[02:30:31] packaging and I think so we have a lot
[02:30:33] of companies in Europe who are involved
[02:30:34] in this technology where we can make the
[02:30:36] different session by collaboration the
[02:30:38] reason why I joined it's really because
[02:30:40] we are looking for collaboration in
[02:30:41] Europe and it's very important for us
[02:30:45] thank you very much for on these
[02:30:47] comments if you want ask to connect you
[02:30:49] with any of the companies in the room
[02:30:50] yet they just tell us and we will be
[02:30:52] very glad to do it ok
[02:30:55] Thank You Philips so ok more questions
[02:30:59] comments
[02:31:01] ok so if not let's move forward in the
[02:31:04] program so next speaker is Tiger
[02:31:06] Ninomiya from Senka
[02:31:09] so Tiger if you can share your screen
[02:31:14] can you hear me and see my presentation
[02:31:17] now yes thank you very much Anna and
[02:31:22] hello everyone hello YouTube and this is
[02:31:24] Tiger from synchrotrons components and
[02:31:26] Senko is fiber optic connector
[02:31:29] manufacturer providing multiple
[02:31:32] different interconnect solutions and the
[02:31:35] last meeting for beyond for when the gig
[02:31:39] I present a lots of different options
[02:31:41] that
[02:31:42] Senko has but the when it comes to
[02:31:45] kabocha optics i think one of the topics
[02:31:47] some of the speakers also spoke was
[02:31:50] densification of the fiber coupling so
[02:31:54] one of the approaches to get higher
[02:31:57] density is to consider the use of multi
[02:32:00] core fibers and I will talk about a
[02:32:03] little bit of what is this fight this
[02:32:07] type of fibers are and where where that
[02:32:09] kind of standardization is and also some
[02:32:13] activities that Cinco did in the past
[02:32:17] so there are multiple types of multiple
[02:32:23] fibers in the market
[02:32:25] just like shown on the top right on
[02:32:27] there for inline and four two by two two
[02:32:32] by four seven and I didn't create
[02:32:35] anything about the twelve nineteen or
[02:32:37] many different types now however there's
[02:32:41] no standard specifying what to do what
[02:32:44] fiber pitch or whatever although I eat
[02:32:47] within I see I believe there's a huge
[02:32:50] discussion about to standardize the
[02:32:53] fibers and connectors but there's no one
[02:32:56] say yeah so I think in in at the moment
[02:33:00] there are various fiber companies having
[02:33:04] multiple different options and also
[02:33:06] having different projects but another
[02:33:10] point that we should consider when we
[02:33:14] are talking about multiple fiber is how
[02:33:16] to break out course if needed and the
[02:33:20] the bottom ones are four typical ways to
[02:33:24] break out individual course into
[02:33:26] different fibers and one of the approach
[02:33:29] is shown on the bottom left is white
[02:33:31] bike so waveguide glass polymer anything
[02:33:36] could be done but the PLC approach this
[02:33:38] one also there's a way to prepare some
[02:33:42] smaller diameter of the fiber to bundle
[02:33:47] to couple against the multiple fiber
[02:33:49] like this and another approach here is
[02:33:53] free space optics and the last one
[02:33:57] showing it's not I can draw draw what
[02:34:00] very well but the arm there's a way to
[02:34:03] stretch and fusion splicer fiber so
[02:34:05] eventually it'll be spliced are going
[02:34:13] next when it comes to connectivity of
[02:34:16] the multi-core fibers of course as you
[02:34:20] can imagine the accuracy of the fiber
[02:34:22] alignment is very very key it's similar
[02:34:25] to MPN fiber alignment but it's more
[02:34:28] challenging because you have seven
[02:34:30] different pores in this case to align to
[02:34:33] the opposing fiber or connector so it's
[02:34:37] really challenging
[02:34:38] some of the papers I referenced says
[02:34:42] that if we can align within two degrees
[02:34:45] we can achieve insertion loss of 0.85 if
[02:34:49] it's 13 at one point three degrees it's
[02:34:53] it's gonna be point two DB but this
[02:34:56] alignment tolerance should include how
[02:34:59] we align the fiber into the ferrule
[02:35:02] connector ferrule itself as well as if
[02:35:04] you are using the fiber optic connectors
[02:35:07] there will be tolerance coming from the
[02:35:09] component a different component so there
[02:35:12] are lots of things to be discussed to
[02:35:14] make good insertion loss using multi
[02:35:17] fiber and also polishing is not
[02:35:20] something we can see as a easy way
[02:35:25] because if we use like a typical UPC
[02:35:29] polished the to achieve the better
[02:35:31] return loss that the fiber end face will
[02:35:34] be like this and that there can be air
[02:35:37] gap so we need a it's not so much
[02:35:41] special but the we need to consider a
[02:35:44] suitable polishing approach to have all
[02:35:47] the pores to have the physical contact
[02:35:49] and as described here there are multiple
[02:35:53] connectors out there including race like
[02:35:57] this but the lope lower the density you
[02:36:02] can easily make connectors but if you
[02:36:06] have multiple multiple fibers assemble
[02:36:09] onto this as mentioned alignment is a
[02:36:12] key to achieve the better loss so it's
[02:36:14] going to be more complicated in future
[02:36:18] and this is my last slide and the
[02:36:21] questions to the members or somebody in
[02:36:24] the audience but the some people talked
[02:36:28] about multiple fibers for pop-eyed
[02:36:30] optics application due to the
[02:36:31] densification but is it really needed
[02:36:35] and also if needed I is it being used to
[02:36:40] have a fan out in between the modules or
[02:36:45] multiple fiber straight away to the
[02:36:47] other end of the module and also how to
[02:36:50] cut all the fibers
[02:36:52] multiple approaches to actively align or
[02:36:54] the wire bonding the Pacific particular
[02:36:58] image is coming from pandered automation
[02:37:01] but there's a way to have the wire bond
[02:37:04] from multi-core fiber to the optical
[02:37:08] chip so this can be the lowest loss
[02:37:14] option but these are the questions I
[02:37:17] have for the members today
[02:37:19] thank you very much Tiger thank you for
[02:37:21] a great presentation and thank you for
[02:37:23] your challenges it is in my mind here
[02:37:26] when it comes to the connector a lot of
[02:37:28] all costs I honestly don't think that
[02:37:30] the multi-core but anybody could correct
[02:37:32] me if I'm wrong I only still think
[02:37:34] multi-core fiber is going anywhere in
[02:37:35] this particular sector but when I
[02:37:38] consider low-cost approach is there any
[02:37:42] technology of choice that you are
[02:37:44] considering as the key winning for the
[02:37:46] integration of the connector into the
[02:37:48] CPU so I think when the when when the
[02:37:57] fibers are being packaged if there's a
[02:37:59] way to align the fibers or channels
[02:38:02] easier that'd be great and also
[02:38:05] detachable I would be with rephrasing
[02:38:09] that as a socketable approach so that
[02:38:12] they can test first remove it solder
[02:38:15] reflow and attach the fibers again when
[02:38:18] it comes to the cost you raise a very
[02:38:20] interesting topic here you put active or
[02:38:22] passive alignment what is the industry
[02:38:24] going I'm going to ask Thurston Thurston
[02:38:27] Barron come from ficon Tech M what is
[02:38:30] the industry going is there room for
[02:38:31] both is there a need for both active and
[02:38:34] passive
[02:38:39] hey since so all of our customers would
[02:38:46] love to go passive at the moment I don't
[02:38:50] have any any product which cause high
[02:38:53] volume which is really doing a passive
[02:38:58] attach so I don't know if you're aware
[02:39:03] so we are shareholder of Vanguard and
[02:39:08] with with them we are actually trying to
[02:39:11] establish that a little bit further
[02:39:14] especially the the attachment of the
[02:39:18] multi core fibers and other than that I
[02:39:22] don't see anybody who's seriously doing
[02:39:27] that's ok let's ask your present or
[02:39:29] future customers I don't know I'm going
[02:39:31] to go to scaling optics and I love this
[02:39:33] company I've been knocking at your door
[02:39:34] Philip so many years and finally
[02:39:36] happened Philip when it comes to passive
[02:39:38] and active alignment for the packaging
[02:39:41] where the skyline stand yeah you know we
[02:39:44] have been working on passive alignment
[02:39:46] since a few years ok
[02:39:48] don't spy but we have been very active
[02:39:51] on also plastic optical fiber okay for
[02:39:54] the automotive industry and we've been
[02:39:56] working on fast I've been working on
[02:40:01] radio trying to implement a very cheap
[02:40:05] solution for passive alignment with very
[02:40:08] cheap optics also injected optics and I
[02:40:11] love the presentation from sabic and
[02:40:13] when I learned the cost price from the
[02:40:15] optics it was very interesting you know
[02:40:17] because when when we have done this
[02:40:19] technology five years ago I can tell you
[02:40:21] it was not so easy to reach this level
[02:40:24] of of specification with a good price
[02:40:27] but but today we try to optimize the
[02:40:30] passive alignment compared to the active
[02:40:32] alignment because it's very important to
[02:40:35] reduce the cost and you know that all
[02:40:37] the course is in the alignment no aim
[02:40:41] well yes all the cost in the alignment
[02:40:43] because they cost little speed which is
[02:40:45] the most expensive parameter in
[02:40:48] manufacturing I'm very interested on the
[02:40:50] division on 80
[02:40:52] another one with the key for Giants that
[02:40:54] we have in epic gym where do you stand
[02:40:56] on the active versus passive alignment
[02:40:58] for CP especially and kind of hybrid of
[02:41:05] the two I would go active alignment but
[02:41:08] you set the opto parameters so much that
[02:41:11] you have a very wide space to hit to use
[02:41:14] all the tricks you would use for passive
[02:41:16] long to make it really really except a
[02:41:20] lot of slop but then you do an act of
[02:41:22] alignment Matt now let's you have the
[02:41:24] precision of an act line that would let
[02:41:26] you make the process very fast because
[02:41:28] as you said you know well as I was just
[02:41:30] said the the cost of alignment in a
[02:41:33] complex optical engine can dominate over
[02:41:35] the over the cogs on more simple older
[02:41:39] generation parts it doesn't come into
[02:41:41] the equation is your cogs driven but for
[02:41:42] what we're talking here the next
[02:41:44] generation of really fast optical
[02:41:46] engines the alignment cost dramatically
[02:41:48] dominate a lot of these and I think the
[02:41:51] same would be true for Cpl it's got one
[02:41:55] another transient manufacturer let's go
[02:41:57] to Sequoia in the beginning of the
[02:41:58] presentations Marco you said I learn I'm
[02:42:00] doing for the vertical great in capital
[02:42:02] packaging are you also going for passive
[02:42:05] alignment or something SS Jim said
[02:42:07] something mixed no so I see personally
[02:42:10] big advantage in active alignment so we
[02:42:13] have to consider that we need to
[02:42:16] maintain interoperability with existing
[02:42:18] standard in data center there we don't
[02:42:22] have much link budget so we don't have
[02:42:25] much margin to guarantee that so we have
[02:42:28] to squeeze all possible fraction of the
[02:42:31] B out of out of the transceiver so
[02:42:34] therefore I guess especially due to the
[02:42:36] large number of counts active alignment
[02:42:38] within the dominating I honestly think
[02:42:43] that there is the future is actually
[02:42:45] active alignment for the co package
[02:42:48] optics but I also think that we need to
[02:42:50] go faster
[02:42:51] there has to be a paradigm shift on this
[02:42:53] as well on day on the speed for the
[02:42:55] assembly but the Sequoia is going to
[02:42:57] film in the right direction and we moved
[02:42:58] to the last presentation today so pretty
[02:43:00] dissipated is finishing because we are
[02:43:02] making such a great statements today but
[02:43:04] we go to octave way
[02:43:05] we go to same bomb fill thank you very
[02:43:07] much for joining the meeting today from
[02:43:10] the software side
[02:43:11] let's bring the industry together the
[02:43:13] attention of everyone is yours well
[02:43:19] thank you very much for giving me this
[02:43:21] opportunity to present I want to talk
[02:43:24] about Optive wave and we're bringing as
[02:43:27] you suggested we're bringing a different
[02:43:30] perspective to this meeting and like let
[02:43:33] me share my screen okay here is my okay
[02:43:48] because what we're doing actually is
[02:43:51] bringing optics and electronics together
[02:43:54] in software so initially I want to go
[02:43:56] through talk about our company just very
[02:44:00] quickly and then later talk about the
[02:44:02] product I'm managing right now and what
[02:44:04] we're doing to address Co packaged
[02:44:06] optics in general so our company was
[02:44:08] established in 94 in Canada when our
[02:44:12] main business is developing software
[02:44:13] tools for designing optics
[02:44:15] and electronic circuits and systems we
[02:44:19] help people shorten their design cycles
[02:44:24] in various ways we sell 200 different
[02:44:28] companies in the industry and 75
[02:44:31] different countries worldwide so some of
[02:44:33] the fields we serve are photonic
[02:44:36] component mod module suppliers optical
[02:44:38] telecommunication equipment providers
[02:44:40] telecom service providers defense
[02:44:42] contractors nonprofit organizations and
[02:44:45] universities so the there are two main
[02:44:49] product lines we have one is a component
[02:44:52] level so it's for designing your
[02:44:54] individual devices we have obtained BPM
[02:44:57] and of opti fdtd where you can design
[02:45:00] your structures in 3d and let's see how
[02:45:04] the light scatters in your device we
[02:45:07] also have an optic fiber from for
[02:45:09] designing fibers and then we have optic
[02:45:12] grading for great things so at the
[02:45:14] higher level we have ot system and of
[02:45:16] these Phi's ot system is a
[02:45:19] the highest level simulator we have it's
[02:45:21] for designing optical telecommunication
[02:45:23] systems as well as sensors opti spice is
[02:45:27] the product I'm gonna emphasize today
[02:45:29] and that's the one I'm in charge of it
[02:45:32] is made for designing and simulating
[02:45:35] optics and electrical circuits and then
[02:45:40] we have a new software that we're
[02:45:41] launching called op the instrument which
[02:45:43] is which is used for automation
[02:45:45] automated test equipment and
[02:45:47] characterization so our simulation
[02:45:51] capabilities again they range from
[02:45:54] system to circuit level and vice level
[02:45:57] we can do up to electronics and that
[02:45:59] made that's mainly with of the spice and
[02:46:01] opti system so if you have ring
[02:46:03] resonators laser drivers optical
[02:46:05] interconnects optical networks with
[02:46:08] optic system and same and of spice and
[02:46:10] optical amplifiers more different we can
[02:46:12] take handle different modulation formats
[02:46:16] we can also do DSP with opti system we
[02:46:20] support wireless communication and
[02:46:22] sensor applications on the device side
[02:46:24] we have fdtd and fdtd simulator that can
[02:46:27] handle the electric structures and
[02:46:30] gratings and photonic crystals BPM is
[02:46:34] for divided devices with lower
[02:46:38] refractive index contrast you can do
[02:46:40] again photonic devices couplers
[02:46:43] splitters modulators aw geez we have up
[02:46:46] degrading optic fiber and then we also
[02:46:48] have a mote solar solar that we use
[02:46:50] without DB p.m. and fdtd or it can be
[02:46:52] used independently as well now the
[02:46:56] product I want to talk about the most
[02:46:57] and I'm very excited about it
[02:47:00] it's opti spice we have two versions of
[02:47:02] of t spice that we are offering right
[02:47:04] now one is a standalone spice where we
[02:47:08] provide a complete solution in terms of
[02:47:10] there's a schematic editor a spice
[02:47:13] simulation engine for simulating
[02:47:15] electrical integrated circuits and we
[02:47:18] have our own models on top that can do
[02:47:21] optics so it's the optics is
[02:47:22] bi-directional multimode multi-channel
[02:47:25] we have parameter extractors and we have
[02:47:29] connectional devices connected to ot
[02:47:31] system where you can build your
[02:47:33] system and then design your optical chip
[02:47:35] and opti spice and then connect it all
[02:47:37] together and it's also connected VPN at
[02:47:39] ETD and grating you can build your
[02:47:42] devices extract parameters as parameters
[02:47:45] for example and then plug that into the
[02:47:47] spice the other product that is newer
[02:47:50] that we launched in 2019 is a plugin so
[02:47:55] one of the main reasons there are few
[02:47:57] reasons we did this one is we would like
[02:48:00] to partner up with larger EDA vendors
[02:48:02] and bring optical simulation
[02:48:06] capabilities at the same level as
[02:48:08] electronics because one of the successes
[02:48:10] of the electronics can be attributed to
[02:48:13] very advanced design and simulation
[02:48:16] tools starting from circuit going to
[02:48:19] mass layout automation of the layout
[02:48:21] design rule checking and a lot of the
[02:48:24] optical tool optical design tools we
[02:48:27] need are the same however for many many
[02:48:31] years the optics and electronic
[02:48:33] simulation tools have been separate so
[02:48:35] our optics legen is a model library that
[02:48:39] plugs into other spice engines so with
[02:48:43] that you can you're able to use a
[02:48:45] third-party schematic editor so it could
[02:48:48] be cadence Mentor Graphics or other
[02:48:51] flavors right now we are in direct
[02:48:53] collaboration with cain's so with mentor
[02:48:56] and we're also working with other
[02:48:59] companies to work with and put products
[02:49:04] out so this is kind of how we're trying
[02:49:06] to bring optics and electronics together
[02:49:08] you know not at a not physically but on
[02:49:12] the software side and the advantage of
[02:49:16] doing optics and electronics in the same
[02:49:18] simulation engine is how natural it is
[02:49:21] to handle electronic feedback loops you
[02:49:25] can design your control circuits
[02:49:27] it could be electronic or it could be
[02:49:29] you want you want to design take control
[02:49:32] for a ring resonator where you want to
[02:49:33] do a thermal control it is perfect tool
[02:49:37] for that and I'm like I said we can do
[02:49:40] multimode might not my directional
[02:49:42] bi-directional linear and nonlinear
[02:49:44] devices and
[02:49:45] can use CMOS electronics or just any
[02:49:48] electronics and optics in the same tool
[02:49:51] we determine like any other spice engine
[02:49:54] we do time and frequency domain
[02:49:55] solutions
[02:49:59] this is an example of the full full
[02:50:02] spice so we can do microwave photonics
[02:50:05] optoelectronics sensors and
[02:50:07] telecommunications circuits and systems
[02:50:08] so I have an example of a fiber optic
[02:50:11] gyroscope where the fiber is a very
[02:50:15] large coil and as it rotates you can
[02:50:18] control the incoming laser frequency and
[02:50:23] it lets you calculate the rate of
[02:50:25] rotation and on the on the right side I
[02:50:27] have yeah there is on the right side we
[02:50:31] have a model we built using experimental
[02:50:33] data that is also very important so this
[02:50:37] is also an electro optic so this is a
[02:50:38] receiver circuit that we built using
[02:50:41] opto electronic measurements
[02:50:45] now let me talk a little bit about the
[02:50:47] plugin again I it is a native add-on for
[02:50:52] spice engines and the idea is we want to
[02:50:55] we want to be able to support photonic
[02:50:58] integrated circuit design flow and take
[02:51:00] the design the photonic design flow at
[02:51:03] the same level as electronics so it's it
[02:51:05] can support here photonic integrated
[02:51:07] simulation from mask layout you can
[02:51:09] directly extract your circuit and then
[02:51:11] build your electronics around it or you
[02:51:13] can extract the whole thing at once
[02:51:16] also it allows rapid prototyping
[02:51:18] directly from the schematic so we have
[02:51:19] built in device libraries going from
[02:51:23] linear to nonlinear optical devices
[02:51:24] lasers photo diodes we have passive and
[02:51:28] active model building capabilities for
[02:51:30] photonics components using ot BPM fdtd
[02:51:33] optimal and optic grating you can also
[02:51:35] integrate your characteristics or
[02:51:38] measurement results so to build a model
[02:51:40] the other part of course is we're also
[02:51:44] trying to work with fabs so that we can
[02:51:46] build P decays that match the
[02:51:49] experimentally verified results of a
[02:51:51] particular device and the users of the
[02:51:54] PDK can easily have set of building
[02:51:57] blocks and drag-and-drop devices connect
[02:51:59] them together on a mass and get their
[02:52:01] design running very quickly finally I
[02:52:04] just want to briefly talk about our flow
[02:52:08] with Tanner though this flow is pretty
[02:52:12] much how you would design an electrical
[02:52:14] circuit as electrical IC as well and
[02:52:17] more it's very close to it I'm starting
[02:52:19] from the last layout here is an example
[02:52:21] of a Mach Zehnder interferometer you can
[02:52:24] there and Tanner has a way has a simple
[02:52:27] you know two click method of exporting
[02:52:30] want to click method of exporting the
[02:52:31] netlist and then you can build your
[02:52:35] layout so you can build your schematic
[02:52:39] and set up your inputs and outputs for
[02:52:42] you the chip and control the chip run
[02:52:44] your simulation and look at your results
[02:52:48] you can also just start from we have a
[02:52:50] set of symbols that you can just use the
[02:52:52] drag and drop and connect them together
[02:52:53] just to do prototyping without worrying
[02:52:57] about the mass design so that's that
[02:53:00] that's the end of my presentation what I
[02:53:04] wanted to say in just to sum up maybe
[02:53:07] what we're looking for right now is to
[02:53:09] collaborate with companies to help them
[02:53:11] solve problems involving specifically up
[02:53:15] integration of optics and electronics
[02:53:17] because of the unique way we bring them
[02:53:20] together using software and the other
[02:53:24] part we're looking for is of course
[02:53:27] working with fabs and working with I
[02:53:29] mean the request form for working with
[02:53:31] fabs can come from somebody who's
[02:53:33] actually trying to design for a
[02:53:35] particular pub or the fab room cells and
[02:53:38] we want to build PD case such that
[02:53:41] everybody can benefit from a faster
[02:53:43] design flow thank you very much see what
[02:53:46] you see making a paradigm shift on
[02:53:48] design side to the to go towards having
[02:53:51] what I call not a PDK but an ad carry
[02:53:54] like an assembly design kit how do you
[02:53:57] assemble in mind when you are designing
[02:53:59] the chip on that I really think that you
[02:54:01] really need to engage further with AAC
[02:54:04] because that's the kind of company that
[02:54:07] goes beyond the photo- the circuit and
[02:54:09] goes asuka's into the inter presentation
[02:54:11] on what is the concept for the
[02:54:13] integration of the photonics and
[02:54:14] electronics I have been in a great great
[02:54:18] meeting today but I think the best way
[02:54:21] to finish this meeting is to go to my
[02:54:23] friend from tE Connectivity Nathan Tracy
[02:54:26] Nathan what did you think about the
[02:54:28] meeting what kind of learning points are
[02:54:31] staying in your mind after this so hi
[02:54:36] everyone it's great to join another one
[02:54:39] of these fantastic epic calls yeah so I
[02:54:43] heard I heard a lot of interesting data
[02:54:45] points today from the various companies
[02:54:47] that they're presented and that ask
[02:54:50] their question so you know kind of
[02:54:53] building on the the conversation you
[02:54:56] know we if you look at all the press
[02:54:58] releases that came out of OSC
[02:55:01] even though you know the attendance at
[02:55:04] oxy was impacted though all the good
[02:55:06] work that people did to show their co
[02:55:11] packaging wares or Co packaging
[02:55:13] capabilities and and and now so that was
[02:55:16] back in March and now you look at the
[02:55:18] the tempo and and just the enthusiasm on
[02:55:22] these calls clearly the technology is
[02:55:25] coming together it this is just really
[02:55:28] exciting
[02:55:29] you know at my company 2e you know we're
[02:55:32] focused on electrical interconnects and
[02:55:34] we're focused on thermal management but
[02:55:36] there's so many people here that you
[02:55:38] know we can work with and just like we
[02:55:40] did at OSC where we were in all those co
[02:55:42] packaging demos with the electrical
[02:55:44] interconnect I wanted to be able to
[02:55:46] connect to all of you and see how we
[02:55:48] combine the technologies together
[02:55:50] because really this is about finding the
[02:55:53] common ground and bringing things
[02:55:55] together and you know leveraging the
[02:55:58] industry standards Ethernet Alliance
[02:56:00] Kobo Ohio and you know all together
[02:56:04] we're moving this thing forward we're
[02:56:05] gonna make CO packaging happen yeah
[02:56:08] indeed we are gonna make capacity
[02:56:10] happening Patrick from the point of view
[02:56:12] of dela you having active in many many
[02:56:13] different markets and you can enable
[02:56:15] many many different of automated
[02:56:17] packaging solutions with the adhesive of
[02:56:19] solutions of dela what do you think of
[02:56:21] the meeting and what kind of learning
[02:56:23] points you bring back with you I mean
[02:56:25] this was another fantastic meeting Thank
[02:56:27] You Jose for putting this up for us it's
[02:56:31] always interesting as a supplier of UE
[02:56:33] polymers adhesives and materials for for
[02:56:37] micro optics to see where the industry
[02:56:39] is going and I've seen several points
[02:56:41] here where epoxies were mentioned
[02:56:44] hoarseness talk from fie contact for
[02:56:46] example so it was it was fantastic to
[02:56:49] see where the challenges are and where
[02:56:51] we can help to foster this technology
[02:56:55] and and bring it further to the next
[02:56:58] level it was really fantastic I took a
[02:57:00] lot of notes today I got more landing
[02:57:02] point say that the could taking wellness
[02:57:04] light I think we could write a book but
[02:57:06] for me the key thing here is that the
[02:57:09] market is really driven by both cost and
[02:57:11] losses not only cost losses are key
[02:57:13] and it was quite clearly stated between
[02:57:17] the lines because we were very careful
[02:57:18] well I not careful at all but you guys
[02:57:20] are very careful a GPON coho are really
[02:57:23] only future proof or the intermediary
[02:57:26] steps and he looks towards more the
[02:57:27] intermediary step and there are abused
[02:57:30] share that the future is a further
[02:57:33] integration with the optics and
[02:57:34] electronics I pointed out there they
[02:57:36] work on by CMOS but there are other
[02:57:38] worlds we need to go towards I think a
[02:57:40] further integration but today with high
[02:57:42] TRL we're closer to implemented a COBOL
[02:57:45] though Mark said that maybe we're gonna
[02:57:47] live enough even to see the takeover
[02:57:49] deployed second thing was about the
[02:57:51] transceiver form factor there is still a
[02:57:53] debate there so we still don't know
[02:57:54] where we're going and I would like to
[02:57:56] have at least I in the room so you
[02:57:57] guys'll see me at least I won you here
[02:57:59] we don't know where we're going here's
[02:58:00] of P or Q or always a P or Q P DV and
[02:58:03] this actually affects a lot defining all
[02:58:05] the standard or the on-board optics are
[02:58:07] we need an answer for this Arista I want
[02:58:09] you clear please next one they please
[02:58:11] perform of choice we've had a lot of
[02:58:13] discussion about silicon photonics or
[02:58:14] indium phosphide a was very I love the
[02:58:17] presentation Francisco that slide in
[02:58:19] which he said 105 degrees C and very
[02:58:22] high integration with Isis it was very
[02:58:24] clear that we have to go towards a
[02:58:26] silicon-based silicon photonics based
[02:58:28] platform perhaps with integration of
[02:58:30] indium phosphide but about the light
[02:58:32] source and that I also pointed out from
[02:58:34] the Cisco presentation high efficiency
[02:58:35] high reliability thermally insensitive
[02:58:39] and they were talking about having the
[02:58:40] light source very far away from the cpos
[02:58:43] which for me is perhaps a train miss the
[02:58:46] needs to be explore
[02:58:47] standards are still the victim because
[02:58:49] the electrical parts is to be fully
[02:58:51] solved we have a standard for that but
[02:58:53] the for the optics I think I was doing a
[02:58:55] great job as a net alliance we are
[02:58:56] working today with the Tripoli we are
[02:58:58] going to communicate a lot more things
[02:58:59] but it's a lot alone wrote to to drive
[02:59:02] through the next big thing and Thank You
[02:59:04] Ruth for a great presentation and also
[02:59:06] for Cinco for pointing that out the
[02:59:08] collaboration also with Bangor photonics
[02:59:09] the next visiting could be 3d
[02:59:11] lithography in volume production at the
[02:59:12] multi photon is very well positioned
[02:59:13] there with other companies from the
[02:59:15] value chain and finally there are
[02:59:17] questions there are questions on the
[02:59:19] packet inside questions for Anna to
[02:59:21] solve with the pixel community questions
[02:59:23] about proxy passive or active alignment
[02:59:25] of CPOs and definitely
[02:59:27] the big packaging are we going for the
[02:59:29] grating coupler or are we going for the
[02:59:30] edge coupler for me next questions to
[02:59:33] answer
[02:59:33] nice Druce nice ways to collaborate nice
[02:59:37] things do together it has been another
[02:59:38] fantastic meeting another epic meeting
[02:59:41] because you guys are epic um because I'm
[02:59:42] having so much fun with these meetings
[02:59:44] thank you so much for driving this
[02:59:46] industry until the next time cause I'm
[02:59:48] gonna love you take care bye bye