# EPIC Online Technology Meeting on Automated Packaging & Testing of Photonic Integrated Circuits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKrAC0PFZf8

[00:00] Welcome back. Let's revisit the conclusions from our last meeting on big packaging last April 26th.
[00:09] And to do that, let's travel back in time.
[00:12] With all the discussions, I put together this slide for me.
[00:14] There are four demands here.
[00:15] On one, we really have to have an assembly design kit for the OSATs to be able to offer the technology all in line and agree with concert.
[00:22] It's gonna be a hard task, but we love those.
[00:23] The second demand is on the RF connectors.
[00:25] We've seen the modulators are getting faster and faster, like when logic nerd already has 70 gigahertz plus modulators.
[00:31] We need to have novel RF connectivity for that.
[00:36] The third one is test before invest packaging for many different applications that we are targeting.
[00:41] Indeed, we are talking about 3D sensing.
[00:43] We are talking about medical devices.
[00:45] All these new end users need to find a way of testing for investment.
[00:47] A standard package application dependent that is a huge amount need.
[00:51] And the fourth one, micro optics are coming here to reduce cost effectivity for the fiber array assembly.
[00:57] I do believe this is a huge.
[01:01] market for all of us and there have been some seismic ships in your industry since then.
[01:05] For example, Epic member Lightwave Logic had good reasons to ring the Nasdaq closing bell.
[01:11] And the exciting thing now is being listed on Nasdaq allows us to go faster.
[01:17] It gives us access to wider, more open capital markets.
[01:20] We can get our technology to market quickly.
[01:23] We work with bigger semiconductor foundries and we can go mass commercialization skill, which is incredibly exciting.
[01:33] And of course, Epic member Rocket Photonics, who after ringing the opening bell on August 12th, raised global attention for the use of silicon photonics to bring biosensing and specifically glucose monitoring to the consumer market.
[01:51] The legendary Andrew Rickman can explain it better.
[01:54] And so we're able to measure a whole plethora of biomarkers continually using the
[02:02] optical signal coming out of the chip.
[02:04] shining into your skin harmlessly and looking at the light coming back um but.
[02:08] all the the parameters that we're able to measure here we ultimately hope that we will be able to get fda clinical approval for them yeah.
[02:14] so this this is a reference design device that we use for our human studies and to help our customers.
[02:20] our customers are you know the global leaders in in wearable device technology and wearable devices.
[02:24] so yeah we're providing basically the mod the chip and module technology into those devices that open up this this huge array of biomarkers.
[02:34] i believe we are entering the most exciting era in the history of photonic integrated circuits.
[02:43] that's why on monday october 4th at 3 pm we'll reunite our community of packaging specialists back together including industry drivers like rockley.
[02:56] effect.
[02:57] pixab.
[02:59] ibm.
[03:00] aim photonics.
[03:02] intel.
[03:03] phillips there is not enough time to mention you all so check out our website because we keep the participant list updated constantly and if you are not on the list register asap.
[03:18] michael levy andrew rickman thank you for being epic cheers cheers cheers to everyone this has been the most exciting months since our previous meeting the most exciting months on photonic integration history with great success stories today today we are bringing many of them back.
[03:36] remember that during this meeting you can interact with each other and the participant list of all the companies 120 companies is published in our website so you can actually get in touch as much as possible and start new cooperations.
[03:50] epic is now 750 members and thanks to all the amazing support that you are giving us my name is jose poto and i'm talking on behalf of a fantastic team together we organize events we provide access to a
[04:04] network we'll help you raise capital.
[04:07] we have the vehicle website in photonics.
[04:09] jobs in photonics.com and we also thanks.
[04:12] to our star tracy vanick the photon.
[04:15] market research we provide you with.
[04:17] exclusive market data all of you because.
[04:19] you are members of epic all of this to.
[04:22] you but today is our chapter 6 of our.
[04:26] season 5 of our online technology.
[04:28] meeting and this chapter six we are.
[04:30] talking about packaging and testing of.
[04:31] pigs they have a special attention look.
[04:34] closely to what's happening next monday.
[04:37] on laser vision correction and also what.
[04:40] is happening this wednesday with our.
[04:42] quantum online technology meetings this.
[04:44] week we talk about atomic clocks the.
[04:46] most precise clocks in history and how.
[04:49] they can be used in network.
[04:50] synchronization but today today is about.
[04:53] peak packaging and testing and this.
[04:55] meeting.
[04:56] wouldn't be possible we are the support.
[04:58] of our sponsors today coming all the way.
[05:00] from switzerland you're looking for a.
[05:01] micro optics partner that partner you.
[05:04] need for the co-packaging and for the.
[05:06] Wafer level optics access is your key partner there you're looking for equipment for the assembly and test.
[05:12] Focus on active alignment all the way from hacking next to framing in Germany.
[05:16] You have Fight on Tech if you're looking for a panel to design a probe, a wafer pro for the scanning and test of wafer level photonic internet circuits.
[05:25] Genocide is your partner whether you're looking for a European OSAT to do the manufacturing and volume of your photonic internet circuit-based.
[05:34] Commodore module Fix in Enschede, the Netherlands is your partner.
[05:38] You're looking for a company to provide the testing, the broadest portfolio of high performance photonic test measurement equipment comes from Keysight.
[05:48] And if you still haven't called VLC Photonics for your testing, congrats.
[05:50] Foreign for so exciting accomplishment on testing assemblies and wafer scale process.
[05:58] Coming all the way from Sweden, we have Knife Force because they provide a specialty fiber and fiber assemblies for the fiber-to-chip coupling.
[06:06] Last but definitely not least the leader of the European micro-optics revolution coming all the way from New Shuttle Shoes Micro-optics providing micro of this wafer level optics for your co-package solution in photonic integration.
[06:20] And with these sponsors we have put together a great agenda.
[06:26] We wanted to bring together the most exciting things happening in photonic integration when it comes to the packaging and assembly and with this we brought Pixap, IBM, Effect Photonics, Broccoli Photonics, Elephronics, Rod Microtech and Aim Photonics.
[06:43] And all the companies registered more than 100 companies registered for this meeting.
[06:47] We put them together into this supply chain so this is the useful for this if you are looking for a supplier of products based on peaks that you have all the companies there.
[07:06] If you are looking for a company that can help you create a design or support for manufacturing or you're looking for equipment, you're looking for materials, all these companies with logos are so small you almost cannot see them all.
[07:08] these companies are in the meeting today
[07:10] and all the name or they contact people for these companies are in your website
[07:12] at the website of the event so you can really get in touch with each other over the next two hours
[07:19] do a favor to me over the next two hours create at least one business lead one contact with which whom you want to cooperate and to make things most exciting
[07:31] to make things more exciting this meeting is also live stream in youtube so hello youtubers of the world
[07:35] if you want to get in touch with any of the participants today all you have to do is send me an email consider photo at epicdasser.com
[07:42] and i will make the introduction please post all your questions and comments in the chat and i will read them in the zoom room
[07:49] and of course this is also valid for the people with me here in the zoom room
[07:52] there is an internal chat so use it abuse it contact each other as much as possible
[07:58] i want to see you typing during the meeting because this meeting is about creating business
[08:04] when it comes to creating business there is a success story in europe when
[08:09] it comes to photonic packaging.
[08:11] and they are headquartered in cork, ireland.
[08:15] but brought together the entire europe offering leading services and training on photonic internet circuit packaging.
[08:22] and to start our packaging meeting today we have brought to you the director of pixab, that person that you always want to meet and he's always too busy to talk to you today.
[08:35] he's here to talk to all of you, professor peter o'brien.
[08:36] thank you very much for being with us today.
[08:39] the floor and the attention of everyone, they very well deserve attention of everyone goes to pixar.
[08:48] thanks jose.
[08:50] um, thank you very much for that kind introduction.
[08:52] so i'm going to talk a little bit about pixar, but i think you've probably seen a lot of what i've presented before.
[08:58] and really what i want to talk about today is just around design rules and um getting access to lots of chips and how we can utilize those to optimize packaging processes.
[09:10] So, um, historically, I've spoken a lot about our services and what we're doing in that regard.
[09:16] And, you know, I have to make, make people aware a lot of that's true, our industrial partners like Fix and Argo Tech and others.
[09:23] So, you know, in Cork, we facilitate a lot of that to our pilot line.
[09:26] But as I say, and what I want to talk about today, when the time has been allocated, is what we're doing to kind of, um, move things on a little bit.
[09:34] And how, how are we using things like, um, reference devices and how we're working with other organizations like, um, Aim Photonics?
[09:41] So I'll mention that briefly to collaborate in, in, you know, lessons learned and work together.
[09:47] So again, um, you've seen some of these shots before.
[09:49] This is our, one of our labs in Cork.
[09:54] And we've, uh, recently invested in a new lab and Fighting Tech have set up a facility, um, with us in our lab.
[09:59] So, and installed equipment.
[10:01] So here's a Josue Para from Ficon Tech.
[10:06] So we have engineers and equipment to handle and you can see two systems here in F300 and the CL 1500.
[10:10] so um the right machine is actually quite an advanced system uh laser soldering and um diet flip chip quite high precision.
[10:19] um so that's that's really kind of given us an ability then to do more development work and expand in in you know looking at more challenging packaging and requirements.
[10:30] so again just very briefly to touch on um what we offer is a range of capabilities and something that you see on the bottom left-hand side is a prototype development service.
[10:40] so we have a range of a very basic um or we call them basic but a more simplified packages which are open and rather than kind of more exp more um complex kind of inexpensive sometimes gold box solutions where they're very good for prototype development.
[10:56] so following standardized design rules that we have um it's relatively quickly to turn around a package if you follow the uh the design rules and um you can make a fairly sophisticated large number of fiber connections and electrical.
[11:13] connections as well.
[11:15] we also have a training program which is running very well.
[11:18] it was hit a bit with cove it obviously would travel because it's a hands-on program but with the new fault on hub europe activity.
[11:23] we have a what we call an experience center so you can come to kindle for three days as with many of the other centers within the photon hub training academy.
[11:33] and uh obviously um we do a lot of work.
[11:36] you can see a nice picture of anna who's not with epic anymore and but i think she's talking today but many of the epic partners are great in supporting us and we were at ecoc and that was a really really nice uh meeting in bordeaux but three weeks ago.
[11:50] and then road mapping and standards so helping in that regard.
[11:53] um so i've might have mentioned this before but it's becoming very very important to help us kind of work towards standards.
[12:00] so um you're probably very familiar with on the left hand side where you have foundry pdks process design kits.
[12:07] so essentially if you go to an imec or if you go to a you know a photonics different foundries and albeit uh
[12:15] there's more than um silicon uh we have
[12:18] indium phosphide and silicon silicon
[12:20] nitride air foundries like linex and and
[12:22] and the jet picks smart photonics in europe
[12:25] so they have pdks and essentially
[12:28] what you're doing is they're laying out
[12:29] your chip in regard to the the foundry process the front end
[12:33] clean room process
[12:35] but we've developed adks and whatever
[12:37] one of our partners synopsis um and um
[12:41] essentially that could be brought into the into the um the design software environment
[12:44] and that would cover things like uh fiber optic packaging micro optics even 3d printed micro lenses and
[12:51] vanguard are a partner in pixab
[12:55] and different types of electrical packages
[12:57] so flip chip wire bonding ribbon wire bonding and even laser integration
[12:59] so in the bottom right you see a hybrid laser with micro optics and
[13:03] these can all be brought into the design design environment to simplify the layout and more automated
[13:09] so in essentially got the device building blocks on the chip but also packaging building blocks
[13:15] and um that's that's slowly evolving so it really simplifies the simple menu that you can use and um how you implement that.
[13:25] so again um we have these chips this is the soi we have got them for in and indium phosphide and silicon nitride.
[13:33] we call them the reference chips with a whole array of different types of um devices on them so we can validate the packaging processes.
[13:41] and i believe stefan is talking later on so stefan from mapletonix so we started to work with aim in the last year very closely.
[13:48] more around training so uh for training so we're actually having cross uh you know travel people from aim and people from uh tyndall for example will be moving across the the atlantic uh working.
[14:00] so we're expecting some visitors from aim in the next month um and uh here you can see they basically mimicked what we've done in our reference chip uh coming out of the imec soi foundry.
[14:12] you've got a name chip here so stefan and his colleagues tom and david david.
[14:16] Harmay in sunny in New York I've been working on that and we're starting to work together on that so this is this is kind of moved on a little bit from our reference chip we have micro optics in there as well and we're working towards kind of more common standardized approaches for packaging so using the foundries to uh you know standardize the layouts for packaging so you can see kind of similarities things like pitches edge couplers grading couplers um flip chip wire bond for for flip chip packaging electrical packaging wire bonding so you're starting to see we're working together with a different large scale consortium to kind of develop those so on the on the top you see the the reference chip but actually something we started to do a bit more of and it's kind of also with a new project we have called photonic leap um is to in a sense mimic what we're doing in the photonics domain into the electronic domain because co-packaging for example is becoming very important in many applications for example in data centers.
[15:18] we are packaging the electronic ics for example um drivers and modulator drivers amplifier chips onto it onto onto a co kind of entire interposer.
[15:31] so from that perspective um what we're doing here is developing these what we call reference chips so these would be simple chips nothing fancy and but they mimic the heat for example in an electrical ic or mimic the rf interconnects.
[15:48] so we're not we're not using very expensive chip platforms um and this enables us then to develop up a range of different packaging scenarios.
[15:56] so for example um you can have you know rf mimicked or fics these can be wire bonded or flip chipped and mimicking the thermal characteristics of a chip.
[16:07] looking at different types of interposers be that ceramic or silicon or even glass we're looking at glass as well.
[16:12] so how you interconnect between a high-speed electrical chip and a
[16:18] photonic ic and then for example how how
[16:22] how do you set the spacing so it could
[16:24] be you have a passive m chip a photonic
[16:27] chip but you might have a lot of heat
[16:29] being generated by electronic ic so you
[16:31] don't want crawl stock so what is the
[16:33] distance so
[16:34] these chips enabled us to be able to
[16:36] kind of um
[16:37] analyze that and come up with more
[16:39] complex design rules so historically the
[16:42] design rules are very much just on the
[16:43] layout so now what we want to move is
[16:46] towards the layout of the package when
[16:48] we see the layout it was the layout of
[16:49] the chip so how you lay out the chip to
[16:51] configure for example with fibers to
[16:54] configure with um wire bonding etc now
[16:57] what we want to do is how do we
[16:59] configure the photonic chip with respect
[17:01] to other chips so heating chips or f
[17:04] chips they can be quite complex and
[17:06] difficult to do and what you don't want
[17:08] to rely on is the actual working chips
[17:10] because quite often as you're probably
[17:12] well aware they can be difficult to get
[17:14] if you're working with an mpw service
[17:16] that can be take a long time so it
[17:18] really impedes the kind of speed of
[17:20] development for these types of scenarios.
[17:22] So these reference devices in the in the photonics domain and in the electrical domain are something we're starting to manufacture and utilize those to really look at the different scenarios for packaging.
[17:33] So something else we've done in pixap is starting to make lots of chips.
[17:37] So for example this is a a device so wafer we've we've produced one of our partners linex.
[17:42] So these are 10 micron mode adapters um in in their silicon nitride platform and we also have interposers where we modify the input waveguide from 3 to 10.
[17:55] And essentially we can make hundreds of these chips.
[17:56] So again this is something that's always been a bottleneck in packaging where you might be working on a process but through an mpw run you might have 50 chips if you're lucky or with a customer you might be limited.
[18:09] So what we're doing here is developing a process where we have hundreds of chips and thousands of chips and similarly with our partner sus who are again a pixar partner and we're making hundreds of micro optics so in infused silica for.
[18:22] example so we can automate processes.
[18:24] where we're putting micro lenses onto.
[18:26] the edge of pigs.
[18:27] so this is kind of like an important development because you know one of our big issues is in in packaging development.
[18:33] we don't have access to enough devices.
[18:35] we don't have access to versatile devices so looking at how we arrange the package look at how the spacing how we organize it on the interposer and have lots of them as we start to scale up and develop and automate that process.
[18:51] so just very briefly i mentioned about this new pro project we have photonic leap and the idea here is we're developing a surface mount package.
[18:58] it's on glass.
[18:59] so um it's a wafer level and we can go to panel level where we're putting um vias in the glass and using the glass base as an interposer.
[19:06] we're sealing the glass from the top.
[19:10] um and hermetic sealing and outer plane couplers using micro optics where we can have fiber connection at the top side.
[19:18] this enables as we lay out the actual glass base or the interposer we can have
[19:23] different package configurations so it opens up the possibility of multi-project wafer runs so we can go from low volume to large volume and because it's a ball grid or right type package we can do automated wafer level test.
[19:36] so this project really just started it started this year um and it's linking in with some of the developments within pixap and and kind of working together and we'd like to see other european projects for example where we can support them through our pilot line.
[19:50] so i'll just leave it at that to open it up to any questions people might have but just to say um really you know developing the standards is important and it's not just in the chip how we lay out the chip these reference chips i've been talking about for a number of years but also how we lay out the package so we're developing kind of like in a sense reference interposers and how we lay out uh you know spacings between chips if they're thermally sensitive or if they're generating a lot of heat if they're very demanding from an interconnected rf interconnect perspective.
[20:21] we're seeing more connections required for fiber pluggable.
[20:24] connectors using micro optics where
[20:26] we're not bonding the fiber and
[20:29] epoxies are a really big challenge
[20:31] because they need to be reflow
[20:33] compatible so looking at high tg epoxies
[20:36] we have some good progress in that area
[20:38] um wafer level is becoming very
[20:40] important i mentioned about photonic
[20:42] leap and essentially packaging somewhat
[20:45] is moving from the back end into the
[20:47] front end it's moving more into the
[20:48] clean room at wafer level and uh design
[20:51] automation is becoming very important
[20:53] where we're looking at this using design
[20:55] rules but also linking up the different
[20:57] domains electrical thermal and
[20:59] mechanical
[21:00] so i'll leave it out and open it up to
[21:01] any questions uh thanks jose thank you
[21:04] very much peter i'm saying
[21:05] congratulations on what you have
[21:07] achieved over the last
[21:09] four years of pixar congratulations also
[21:11] from the european commission all the
[21:13] great feedback you're doing a fantastic
[21:15] an amazing job
[21:17] micro-optics we are leaving the european
[21:20] micro-optics revolution i believe that
[21:22] the wafer level optics that you can get
[21:23] from europe right now with companies
[21:25] like like accentures or zeus or
[21:28] nanoscribe they are they are an example
[21:30] to the whole industry and you already
[21:33] explained very clearly how you foresee
[21:35] the world the role of micro optics
[21:38] in the packaging you mentioned some of
[21:40] the materials you mentioned fuse silica
[21:43] i would like to hear a bit about your
[21:44] vision and most important your needs
[21:47] your main needs still for the for the
[21:49] micro optics in the packaging of
[21:51] photonic integration
[21:54] yeah so i think one of the big issues
[21:55] that we face is around the bonding
[21:57] materials like epoxies can be very very
[22:00] um
[22:02] most cases they're they're not great um
[22:04] so people talk about reflow compatible
[22:06] uh you know what does that mean so a lot
[22:09] of epoxies were developed for things
[22:10] like leds but when you're down at a
[22:12] micron precision alignment requirements
[22:15] these epoxies often can expand they may
[22:18] not contract so
[22:20] under reflow 260 for example they may
[22:22] not
[22:23] recover their original position we can
[22:26] see them fail so they soften to the
[22:28] point where multiple cycles can cause a
[22:30] problem
[22:32] in quantum we see interest in cryogenic
[22:34] cooling so we've seen epoxies fail so it
[22:37] goes from one extreme to the other um
[22:40] and there are interesting materials so
[22:42] you can end up with kind of two-part
[22:44] type epoxy solutions where you have a
[22:46] mechanical you might have an optical
[22:48] epoxy you know you need to partition
[22:50] them things like that um but also
[22:53] solders are becoming interesting so
[22:54] replacing epoxies with solders so
[22:57] metallizing metallizing the micro lens
[23:00] so you can actually solder the the
[23:02] materials into place so i really think
[23:04] around the materials the packaging
[23:06] materials are where one of the big
[23:07] challenges that need to be addressed
[23:10] micro optics are fantastic the first
[23:12] time we met 20 15 years ago peter you
[23:15] may you already made a difference in the
[23:17] packaging of photonic integration
[23:18] because you added console simulations
[23:22] when nobody was doing them because you
[23:23] knew that temperature was the biggest
[23:25] issue there are two companies in the
[23:26] room who i think need to interact with
[23:28] you at this stage the first one the
[23:29] first one and you know them very well is
[23:31] coming all the way from beautiful
[23:34] it's called nanoscribe and then scribe
[23:37] has actually a very interesting question
[23:38] for you george what's on your mind
[23:43] hello everybody nice to be back here
[23:44] again here
[23:46] peter i have a question you talk about
[23:48] a lot of standards you have aim now on
[23:50] the board so you're cooperating with
[23:52] them together so my main question is do
[23:55] you have any idea how much the standards
[23:57] are accepted worldwide or is it a
[24:00] difference if you say eu us and other
[24:02] countries i mean
[24:04] most of the foundry still have their own
[24:06] standards for coupling measures for spot
[24:08] size converters anything you name it
[24:12] so are we at fifty percent
[24:14] twenty percent depend where is it better
[24:17] you will eus are you able to measure
[24:20] this
[24:21] yeah so um it's a good question really
[24:24] there's there's no standards i call them
[24:26] soft standards what we're trying to do
[24:27] is get everybody moving in the same
[24:29] direction so collaborations with uh
[24:31] people like stefan and name we're
[24:33] starting to kind of speak the same
[24:34] language we're starting to kind of lay
[24:36] out devices in the same configuration
[24:38] we're sharing our experiences i think
[24:41] the uh you've got
[24:43] the other challenge then is um
[24:45] you've got different foundries as you
[24:47] say there is a move towards higher mode
[24:49] sizes so more compatibility with a
[24:52] single mode fiber so moving from three
[24:55] you often see this tray to six to nine
[24:58] ten microns at fifteen fifty it's moving
[25:01] there
[25:02] to to to kind of fix standards now might
[25:04] be too premature and however what i
[25:07] would say is there's best practice so
[25:09] laying out uh edge couplers in a
[25:12] particular way i don't think anyone's
[25:14] doing that anymore because there's so
[25:15] many courses you know pitches and so
[25:17] forth so really hard and fast standards
[25:21] no not yet but people are starting to
[25:23] kind of realize what's important and
[25:25] it'll probably take time to you know a
[25:27] couple of years before we start to see
[25:29] things being documented and being fixed
[25:33] furthermore you should know peter that
[25:35] over the last years we started having
[25:37] these packaging houses these packaging
[25:40] centers these european osa it's like fix
[25:43] and technology so you know them very
[25:44] well what we're seeing lately is also
[25:47] testing houses
[25:49] like maple or like vlc i believe we have
[25:51] somebody from vlc in the room
[25:54] alberto buenas tardes good afternoon
[25:57] yeah i wanted to talk to you at this
[25:58] moment because i wanted to understand
[26:00] alberto how it is to set up a testing
[26:03] facility or photonic internet circuit
[26:05] and also see if there is a room for
[26:07] cooperation with pixap
[26:10] alberto we cannot hear you that makes me
[26:12] nervous maybe now yes exactly perfect
[26:16] so
[26:16] good morning good afternoon everyone
[26:19] uh yeah i think so there is room for
[26:22] cooperation with pixab of course
[26:25] we are quite interesting on
[26:29] yeah all the information
[26:32] can you hear me well loud and clear okay
[26:34] perfect
[26:36] um so yeah
[26:39] um but
[26:40] at vlc we have
[26:44] uh
[26:46] we have uh
[26:46] been working on a side contact machine
[26:48] to be flexible uh to adapt all the needs
[26:52] from our customers
[26:54] which is quite ambitious and
[26:58] you probably are aware of the
[26:59] complexities of building a setup an
[27:02] optical setup
[27:03] which requires
[27:04] adapting the the equipment the tools
[27:07] modifying for the different couplings
[27:10] and uh performing on electrical uh
[27:14] methodologies
[27:15] uh
[27:16] so
[27:17] yeah
[27:18] that
[27:20] goal that we
[27:21] are trying to to get is quite ambitious
[27:24] and of course uh
[27:26] i guess being aligned with standards
[27:28] and with good practices to make it more
[27:31] flexible more accessible for customers
[27:34] and for everyone to have a good
[27:36] configuration of these machines
[27:39] it's it's a need
[27:42] thank you very much alberto peter do you
[27:44] foresee pixab being also the entry point
[27:47] for testing and has been the entry point
[27:49] for packaging already
[27:51] so we already do some testing with our
[27:53] partners in tue um so they've been
[27:55] working with uh falcon tech and
[27:56] developing uh sylvester uh in toa has
[28:00] been doing quite a bit of work in that
[28:01] as well so they have a test machine
[28:04] developed with their moritz for example
[28:06] in fighting tech and that that's ongoing
[28:08] but absolutely absolutely um you know
[28:12] keen to kind of expand that i think one
[28:15] of the big one of the big issues we face
[28:18] in all of this and it's probably my
[28:19] takeaway message i always try to give
[28:20] her what's the take away message we need
[28:22] more chips we need a lot more chips for
[28:25] development i think that's one of the
[28:26] big impediments um you know even it
[28:29] picks up we find we work with some big
[28:31] companies and they can bring in more
[28:33] chips but it's not lots of chips and i
[28:35] think that's a big problem and the chips
[28:38] all have to be managed very carefully
[28:39] you can't use them for development so
[28:41] this is this was kind of almost out of
[28:43] frustration like the design rules we
[28:45] started out of frustration in some sense
[28:47] we wanted to make more chips make them
[28:49] cheap make lots of them so we can you
[28:52] know give them out to people but also
[28:53] use them ourselves because i think that
[28:55] is one of the big problems so getting
[28:58] lots of chips and access to them so you
[28:59] can
[29:00] optimize
[29:01] run automated processes um so for
[29:05] example
[29:06] getting hundreds of chips we need
[29:07] cooperation with foundries you mean to
[29:10] to to further cooperation with foundries
[29:13] not corporations to pay them to get them
[29:15] so it could be like maybe everybody
[29:17] comes together and does a run where we
[29:19] get lots of chips each but it's just
[29:22] getting lots of chips is a big problem
[29:24] so that's what i mentioned in my
[29:25] presentation it's something we're
[29:26] starting to work on we need more and
[29:28] more devices even genetic ones thank you
[29:31] very much peter before we go to the next
[29:32] speaker that he's desperate already and
[29:34] i know that he's fantastic i want to
[29:36] address your challenge on the on the
[29:38] glues that you need the adhesives that
[29:40] you need for the micro optics to
[29:42] photonic internet circuits and for this
[29:44] i want to go to one of the pixab
[29:46] partners and the leader of the micro
[29:47] optics revolution suse micro optics
[29:49] wilfred good afternoon
[29:51] oh how are you
[29:53] you are giving micro optics to many of
[29:55] the or the leaders in
[29:57] in many sectors including data com
[29:59] telecom
[30:00] is is there adhesives from between the
[30:02] micro optics and the integrity photonics
[30:04] a challenge
[30:06] oh there's a lot of challenges so
[30:08] especially if we need to integrate more
[30:10] and more features so this is actually
[30:12] becoming a very tricky
[30:14] and
[30:15] but
[30:16] we have some solutions there and then
[30:18] depending on the application and and we
[30:20] offer more and more extra features can i
[30:22] can i share a slide yes please go ahead
[30:24] of course everybody can share one slide
[30:27] here we go um so here here have an
[30:30] overview of of the different features
[30:32] that we offer and actually some of these
[30:35] we are going we provided for
[30:37] for picks up so peter has them on his
[30:40] desk
[30:41] so metaphorically spoken but but we also
[30:44] have a lot of
[30:47] special features now that we want to
[30:49] further develop in in in photonic leap
[30:52] for example the
[30:54] what you see at the top right the the
[30:56] mirrors integrated mirrors that allow
[30:58] you a 30 degrees turn so this is a
[31:00] highly integrated design which which
[31:03] will can facilitate your packaging
[31:06] tremendously so it's actually already a
[31:08] product but it's a custom design for one
[31:10] of our clients
[31:11] and um
[31:13] and but we want to give it to broader
[31:15] community by by offering it through
[31:18] photonic leap
[31:20] at the same time we have the uh
[31:23] we offer soda bombs and also through
[31:25] silicon vias that that should all make
[31:27] your packaging much easier and and this
[31:29] is actually also very common design that
[31:31] we produce in high volume these are what
[31:33] we call the recessed lenses when you
[31:35] want to stack
[31:36] and here we also gave a bunch this is
[31:39] like i said a volume product but this is
[31:40] also a design that we provided to
[31:43] picks up and which is available uh uh
[31:46] through photonically probably as well
[31:48] for different companies for packaging
[31:50] tests
[31:51] thank you very much and to add to that
[31:54] we have cscm in the room stefan thank
[31:56] you very much for joining us stefan
[31:58] mordeck from csem what's on your mind
[32:04] in my mind
[32:06] yeah i was thinking about the
[32:08] adhesive bonding which should sustain
[32:12] high temperatures i was wondering um
[32:15] why you wouldn't uh go here for uh say
[32:18] regular bonding schemes and and
[32:21] if you want to make it rugged uh so
[32:23] atheists so they have some disadvantages
[32:26] in the long term so they may creep and
[32:29] there's water aggression if you want to
[32:31] get uh stuff hermetic
[32:34] so i was wondering if there wouldn't be
[32:36] any other types of technologies you
[32:39] could use here for
[32:41] fixing components or
[32:43] actually i'm not wondering so there
[32:45] there are
[32:46] i mean you can solder
[32:48] any any type of component and if you can
[32:50] do it
[32:52] uh
[32:52] on
[32:53] say low cost um path
[32:57] then it would be a big benefit i think
[32:59] there there is some opportunity here
[33:02] for the research community to improve
[33:06] yeah
[33:07] the issue is that we don't have a
[33:09] machine that can do the soldering and
[33:10] the alignment in one go at the moment so
[33:13] there you go if i contact there's a
[33:15] challenge for you
[33:16] so i i agree here with stefan in which
[33:19] we cannot reinvent the wheel we are
[33:21] having one event on micro optics almost
[33:23] per month because it's one of the
[33:24] biggest markets right now in the
[33:26] european optical community and there we
[33:28] are talking about new materials
[33:30] constantly and ways to deploy them and
[33:32] ways to actually use active and passive
[33:34] alignment so i believe that for photonic
[33:37] intraday circuit there is a wilfred zeus
[33:40] you have to be the link here between two
[33:41] communities we have to build stronger
[33:43] bridges to make sure that the technology
[33:45] of fabulous pilot line for example can
[33:47] benefit the technology of pixab peter
[33:50] thank you very much stay with us because
[33:52] i'm going to come back to you a bit
[33:54] later but now i'm going to go from
[33:56] ireland from ireland all the way to
[33:58] canada and i want to go to canada
[34:01] because i want to talk to alexander
[34:03] janta or main contact in ibm bromont to
[34:06] tell us about what happened in the last
[34:08] months and also tell us how we can
[34:10] strengthen new cooperation alexander
[34:12] thank you very much for interacting with
[34:13] so many members after the previous
[34:15] meeting the floor and the attention of
[34:16] everyone goes to bramant goes to ibm
[34:20] thank you joseph for the introduction so
[34:22] hi everyone we're very happy to be there
[34:24] today uh today i will present some of
[34:26] our offering uh for photonic packaging
[34:29] and i will also to disclose um there's
[34:31] this new satellite initiative from
[34:34] europe and canada and there's some
[34:35] incentive to collaborate together
[34:38] because there is a need for this
[34:40] interoperability of this new internet in
[34:42] the space
[34:43] so today i will present some of our
[34:45] packaging building block and as you know
[34:46] those novel space technology will use
[02:10:52] you