# EPIC Online Technology Meeting on Automated Packaging & Testing of Photonic Integrated Circuits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKrAC0PFZf8

[00:00] welcome back let's revisit the
[00:02] conclusions from our last meeting on big
[00:05] packaging last april 26th and to do that
[00:09] let's travel back in time
[00:12] with all the discussions i put together
[00:14] this slide for me there are four demands
[00:15] here on one we really have to have an
[00:17] assembly design kit for the osats to be
[00:20] able to offer the technology all in line
[00:22] and agree with concert it's gonna be a
[00:23] hard task but we love those the second
[00:25] demand is on the rf connectors we've
[00:27] seen the modulators are getting faster
[00:29] and faster like when logic nerd already
[00:31] has 70 gigahertz plus modulators we need
[00:33] to have novel rf connectivity for that
[00:36] the third one is test before invest
[00:38] packaging for many different
[00:40] applications that we are targeting
[00:41] indeed we are talking about 3d sensing
[00:43] we are talking about medical devices all
[00:45] these new end users need to find a way
[00:47] of testing for investment a standard
[00:49] package application depend that is a
[00:51] huge amount need and the fourth one
[00:53] micro optics are coming here to reduce
[00:56] cost effectivity for the fiber array
[00:59] assembly i do believe this is a huge
[01:01] market for all of us and there have been
[01:03] some seismic ships in your industry
[01:05] since then for example epic member
[01:08] lightwave logic had good reasons to ring
[01:11] the nasta clausie bell and the exciting
[01:14] thing now is being listed on nasdaq
[01:17] allows us to go faster it gives us
[01:20] access to wider more open capital
[01:23] markets we can get our technology to
[01:25] market quickly we work with bigger
[01:27] semiconductor foundries and we can go
[01:30] mass commercialization skill which is
[01:33] incredibly exciting and of course epic
[01:36] member rocket photonics who after
[01:39] ringing the opening bell on august 12th
[01:42] raised global attention for the use of
[01:45] silicon photonics to bring biosensing
[01:48] and specifically glucose monitoring to
[01:51] the consumer market the legendary andrew
[01:54] rickman can explain it better and so
[01:57] we're able to measure a whole plethora
[02:00] of biomarkers continually using the
[02:02] optical signal coming out of the chip
[02:04] shining into your skin harmlessly and
[02:06] looking at the light coming back um but
[02:08] all the the parameters that we're able
[02:10] to measure here we ultimately hope that
[02:12] we will be able to get fda clinical
[02:14] approval for them yeah so this this is a
[02:16] reference design device that we use for
[02:18] our human studies and to help our
[02:20] customers our customers are you know the
[02:22] global leaders in in wearable device
[02:24] technology and wearable devices so yeah
[02:27] we're providing basically the mod the
[02:30] chip and module technology into those
[02:32] devices that open up this this huge
[02:34] array of biomarkers i believe we are
[02:37] entering the most exciting era in the
[02:40] history of photonic integrated circuits
[02:43] that's why on monday october 4th at 3 pm
[02:47] we'll reunite our community of packaging
[02:49] specialists back together including
[02:52] industry drivers like rockley
[02:56] effect
[02:57] pixab
[02:58] ibm
[03:00] aim photonics
[03:02] intel
[03:03] phillips
[03:04] there is not enough time to mention you
[03:07] all so check out our website because we
[03:09] keep the participant list updated
[03:12] constantly and if you are not on the
[03:14] list register asap
[03:18] michael levy andrew rickman thank you
[03:21] for being epic cheers cheers cheers to
[03:24] everyone this has been the most exciting
[03:27] months since our previous meeting the
[03:29] most exciting months on photonic
[03:31] integration history with great success
[03:34] stories today today we are bringing many
[03:36] of them back remember that during this
[03:38] meeting you can interact with each other
[03:40] and the participant list of all the
[03:42] companies 120 companies is published in
[03:46] our website so you can actually get in
[03:48] touch as much as possible and start new
[03:50] cooperations epic is now
[03:53] 750 members and thanks to all the
[03:56] amazing support that you are giving us
[03:58] my name is jose poto and i'm talking on
[04:00] behalf of a fantastic team together we
[04:03] organize events we provide access to a
[04:04] network we'll help you raise capital
[04:07] we have the vehicle website in photonics
[04:09] jobs in photonics.com and we also thanks
[04:12] to our star tracy vanick the photon
[04:15] market research we provide you with
[04:17] exclusive market data all of you because
[04:19] you are members of epic all of this to
[04:22] you but today is our chapter 6 of our
[04:26] season 5 of our online technology
[04:28] meeting and this chapter six we are
[04:30] talking about packaging and testing of
[04:31] pigs they have a special attention look
[04:34] closely to what's happening next monday
[04:37] on laser vision correction and also what
[04:40] is happening this wednesday with our
[04:42] quantum online technology meetings this
[04:44] week we talk about atomic clocks the
[04:46] most precise clocks in history and how
[04:49] they can be used in network
[04:50] synchronization but today today is about
[04:53] peak packaging and testing and this
[04:55] meeting
[04:56] wouldn't be possible we are the support
[04:58] of our sponsors today coming all the way
[05:00] from switzerland you're looking for a
[05:01] micro optics partner that partner you
[05:04] need for the co-packaging and for the
[05:06] wafer level optics access is your key
[05:08] partner there you're looking for
[05:10] equipment for the assembly and test
[05:12] focus on active alignment all the way
[05:14] from hacking next to framing in germany
[05:16] you have fight on tech if you're looking
[05:18] for a panel to design a probe a wafer
[05:20] pro for the scanning and test of wafer
[05:23] level photonic internet circuits
[05:25] genocide is your partner whether you're
[05:27] looking for a european ossat to do the
[05:30] manufacturing and volume of your
[05:32] photonic internet circuit-based
[05:34] commodore module fix in enschede the
[05:37] netherlands is your partner you're
[05:38] looking for a company provide the
[05:41] testing the broadest portfolio or high
[05:43] performance photonic test measurement
[05:45] equipment comes from keysight and if you
[05:48] still haven't called vlc photonics for
[05:50] your testing congrats foreign for so
[05:53] exciting accomplishment on testing
[05:54] assemblies and wafer scale process
[05:58] coming all the way from sweden we have
[06:00] knife force because they provide a
[06:02] specialty fiber and fiber assemblies for
[06:04] the fiber fiber-to-chip coupling and
[06:06] last but definitely not least the leader
[06:08] of the european micro-optics revolution
[06:11] coming all the way from new shuttle
[06:12] shoes micro-optics providing micro of
[06:15] this wafer level optics for your
[06:17] co-package solution in photonic
[06:20] integration and with these sponsors we
[06:23] have put together a great agenda we
[06:25] wanted to bring together the most
[06:26] exciting things happening in photonic
[06:28] integration when it comes to the
[06:29] packaging and assembly and with this we
[06:32] brought pixap ibm effect photonics
[06:36] broccoli photonics
[06:38] elephronics rod microtech and aim
[06:40] photonics and all the companies register
[06:43] more than 100 companies registered for
[06:45] this meeting we put them together into
[06:47] this supply chain so this is the useful
[06:50] for this if you are looking for a
[06:52] supplier of products based on peaks that
[06:55] you have all the companies there if you
[06:57] are looking for a company that can help
[06:59] you create a design or support for
[07:00] manufacturing or you're looking for
[07:02] equipment you're looking for materials
[07:04] all these companies with logos are so
[07:06] small you almost cannot see them all
[07:08] these companies are in the meeting today
[07:10] and all the name or they contact people
[07:12] for these companies are in your website
[07:15] at the website of the event so you can
[07:17] really get in touch with each other over
[07:19] the next two hours do a favor to me over
[07:21] the next two hours create at least one
[07:24] business lead one contact with which
[07:26] whom you want to cooperate and to make
[07:28] things most exciting to make things more
[07:31] exciting this meeting is also live
[07:33] stream in youtube so hello youtubers of
[07:35] the world if you want to get in touch
[07:36] with any of the participants today all
[07:38] you have to do is send me an email
[07:40] consider photo at epicdasser.com
[07:42] and i will make the introduction please
[07:44] post all your questions and comments in
[07:46] the chat and i will read them in the
[07:48] zoom
[07:49] room and of course this is also valid
[07:51] for the people with me here in the zoom
[07:52] room there is an internal chat so use it
[07:55] abuse it contact each other as much as
[07:58] possible i want to see you typing during
[08:00] the meeting because this meeting is
[08:02] about creating business
[08:04] when it comes to creating business
[08:07] there is a success story in europe when
[08:09] it comes to photonic packaging
[08:11] and they are headquartered
[08:13] in cork
[08:15] ireland but brought together the entire
[08:17] europe offering leading services and
[08:20] training on photonic internet circuit
[08:22] packaging and to start our packaging
[08:25] meeting today we have brought to you the
[08:28] director of pixab that person that you
[08:31] always want to meet and he's always too
[08:33] busy to talk to you today he's here to
[08:34] talk to all of you
[08:36] professor peter o'brien thank you very
[08:39] much for being with us today the floor
[08:41] and the attention of everyone they very
[08:43] well deserve attention of everyone goes
[08:45] to pixar
[08:48] thanks jose um thank you very much for
[08:50] that kind introduction
[08:52] so i'm going to talk a little bit about
[08:54] pixar but i think you've probably seen a
[08:56] lot of what i've presented before
[08:58] and really what i want to talk about
[09:00] today is just around design rules and um
[09:03] getting access to lots of chips and how
[09:06] we can utilize those to optimize
[09:08] packaging processes
[09:10] so um historically i've spoken a lot
[09:12] about our services and what we're doing
[09:14] in that regard and you know i have to
[09:16] make make people aware a lot of that's
[09:18] true our industrial partners like fix
[09:21] and argo tech and others so you know in
[09:23] cork we facilitate a lot of that to our
[09:25] pilot line but as i say and what i want
[09:28] to talk about today when the time has
[09:29] been allocated is what we're doing to
[09:31] kind of um move things on a little bit
[09:34] and how how are we using things like um
[09:37] reference devices and how we're working
[09:39] with other organizations like um aim
[09:41] photonics so i'll mention that briefly
[09:43] to collaborate in in you know lessons
[09:45] learned and work together
[09:47] so again um you've seen some of these
[09:49] shots before this is our one of our labs
[09:52] in cork um and we've uh recently
[09:54] invested in a new lab and fighting tech
[09:56] have set up a facility um with us in our
[09:59] lab so and installed equipment
[10:01] so here's a josue para from ficon tech
[10:04] so we have engineers and equipment to
[10:06] tindle and you can see two systems here
[10:08] in f300 and the cl 1500
[10:10] so um the right machine is actually
[10:12] quite an advanced system uh laser
[10:14] soldering and um diet flip chip quite
[10:17] high precision
[10:19] um so that's that's really kind of given
[10:21] us an ability then to do more
[10:22] development work and expand in in you
[10:26] know
[10:26] looking at more challenging packaging
[10:28] and requirements
[10:30] so again just very briefly to touch on
[10:32] um what we offer is a range of
[10:34] capabilities and something that you see
[10:36] on the bottom left-hand side is a
[10:38] prototype development service so we have
[10:40] a range of a very basic um or we call
[10:43] them basic but a more simplified
[10:45] packages which are open
[10:47] and rather than kind of more exp more um
[10:50] complex kind of inexpensive sometimes
[10:53] gold box solutions
[10:55] where they're very good for prototype
[10:56] development so following standardized
[10:59] design rules that we have um it's
[11:01] relatively quickly to turn around a
[11:03] package if you follow the uh the design
[11:06] rules and um you can make a fairly
[11:08] sophisticated large number of
[11:10] fiber connections and electrical
[11:13] connections as well
[11:15] we also have a training program which is
[11:16] running very well
[11:18] it was hit a bit with cove it obviously
[11:19] would travel because it's a hands-on
[11:21] program but with the new fault on hub
[11:23] europe activity we have a what we call
[11:25] an experience center so you can come to
[11:28] kindle for three days as with many of
[11:30] the other centers within the photon hub
[11:32] training academy
[11:33] and uh obviously um we do a lot of work
[11:36] you can see a nice picture of anna who's
[11:37] not with epic anymore and but i think
[11:39] she's talking today but many of the epic
[11:41] partners are great in supporting us and
[11:44] we were at ecoc and that was a really
[11:46] really nice uh meeting in bordeaux but
[11:48] three weeks ago
[11:50] and then road mapping and standards so
[11:51] helping in that regard
[11:53] um so i've might have mentioned this
[11:56] before but it's becoming very very
[11:57] important to help us kind of work
[11:59] towards standards
[12:00] so um you're probably very familiar with
[12:02] on the left hand side where you have
[12:04] foundry pdks process design kits so
[12:07] essentially if you go to an imec or if
[12:08] you go to a you know a photonics
[12:11] different foundries and albeit uh
[12:15] there's more than um silicon uh we have
[12:18] indium phosphide and silicon silicon
[12:20] nitride air foundries like linex and and
[12:22] and the jet picks smart photonics in
[12:25] europe so they have pdks and essentially
[12:28] what you're doing is they're laying out
[12:29] your chip in regard to the the foundry
[12:31] process the front end
[12:33] clean room process
[12:35] but we've developed adks and whatever
[12:37] one of our partners synopsis um and um
[12:40] essentially that could be brought into
[12:42] the into the um the design software
[12:44] environment and that would cover things
[12:46] like uh fiber optic packaging micro
[12:49] optics even 3d printed micro lenses and
[12:51] vanguard are a partner in pixab
[12:55] and different types of electrical
[12:57] packages so flip chip wire bonding
[12:59] ribbon wire bonding and even laser
[13:01] integration so in the bottom right you
[13:03] see a hybrid laser with micro optics and
[13:06] these can all be brought into the design
[13:07] design environment to simplify the
[13:09] layout and more automated
[13:11] so in essentially got the device
[13:12] building blocks on the chip but also
[13:14] packaging building blocks
[13:15] and um that's that's slowly evolving so
[13:18] it really simplifies the simple menu
[13:21] that you can use and um how you
[13:23] implement that
[13:25] so again um we have these chips this is
[13:28] the soi we have got them for in and
[13:30] indium phosphide and silicon nitride
[13:33] we call them the reference chips with a
[13:35] whole array of different types of um
[13:37] devices on them so we can validate the
[13:39] packaging processes
[13:41] and i believe stefan is talking later on
[13:43] so stefan from mapletonix so we started
[13:45] to work with aim in the last year very
[13:47] closely
[13:48] more around training so uh for training
[13:51] so we're actually having cross uh you
[13:53] know travel people from aim and people
[13:55] from uh tyndall for example will be
[13:58] moving across the the atlantic uh
[14:00] working so we're expecting some visitors
[14:02] from aim in the next month um and uh
[14:05] here you can see they basically mimicked
[14:07] what we've done in our reference chip uh
[14:10] coming out of the imec soi foundry
[14:12] you've got a name chip here so stefan
[14:14] and his colleagues tom and david david
[14:16] harmay in sunny in new york i've been
[14:19] working on that and we're starting to
[14:21] work together on that so
[14:23] this is this is kind of moved on a
[14:25] little bit from our reference chip we
[14:26] have micro optics in there as well and
[14:29] we're working towards kind of more
[14:30] common standardized approaches for
[14:32] packaging so using the foundries to uh
[14:35] you know standardize the layouts for
[14:38] packaging so you can see kind of
[14:39] similarities things like pitches edge
[14:42] couplers grading couplers um flip chip
[14:45] wire bond for for flip chip packaging
[14:48] electrical packaging wire bonding so
[14:50] you're starting to see we're working
[14:51] together with a different large scale
[14:53] consortium to kind of develop those
[14:56] so on the on the top you see the the
[14:58] reference chip but actually something we
[15:00] started to do a bit more of and it's
[15:02] kind of also with a new project we have
[15:04] called photonic leap um is to
[15:06] in a sense mimic what we're doing in the
[15:08] photonics domain into the electronic
[15:11] domain because co-packaging for example
[15:13] is becoming very important in many
[15:16] applications for example in data centers
[15:18] we are packaging the electronic ics for
[15:21] example um drivers and modulator drivers
[15:24] amplifier chips onto it onto onto a co
[15:28] kind of entire
[15:30] interposer
[15:31] so from that perspective um what we're
[15:33] doing here is developing these what we
[15:35] call reference chips so these would be
[15:37] simple chips nothing fancy and but they
[15:40] mimic the heat for example in an
[15:42] electrical ic or mimic the
[15:45] rf interconnects so we're not we're not
[15:48] using very expensive chip platforms um
[15:51] and this enables us then to develop up a
[15:54] range of different packaging scenarios
[15:56] so for example um you can have
[16:00] you know rf mimicked or fics these can
[16:02] be wire bonded or flip chipped and
[16:04] mimicking the thermal characteristics of
[16:06] a chip
[16:07] looking at different types of
[16:08] interposers be that ceramic or silicon
[16:10] or even glass we're looking at glass as
[16:12] well so how you interconnect between a
[16:15] high-speed electrical chip and a
[16:18] photonic ic and then for example how how
[16:22] how do you set the spacing so it could
[16:24] be you have a passive m chip a photonic
[16:27] chip but you might have a lot of heat
[16:28] being generated by electronic ic so you
[16:31] don't want crawl stock so what is the
[16:33] distance so
[16:34] these chips enabled us to be able to
[16:36] kind of um
[16:37] analyze that and come up with more
[16:39] complex design rules so historically the
[16:42] design rules are very much just on the
[16:43] layout so now what we want to move is
[16:46] towards the layout of the package when
[16:48] we see the layout it was the layout of
[16:49] the chip so how you lay out the chip to
[16:51] configure for example with fibers to
[16:54] configure with um wire bonding etc now
[16:57] what we want to do is how do we
[16:58] configure the photonic chip with respect
[17:01] to other chips so heating chips or f
[17:04] chips they can be quite complex and
[17:06] difficult to do and what you don't want
[17:08] to rely on is the actual working chips
[17:10] because quite often as you're probably
[17:12] well aware they can be difficult to get
[17:14] if you're working with an mpw service
[17:16] that can be take a long time so it
[17:18] really impedes the kind of speed of
[17:20] development for these types of scenarios
[17:22] so these reference devices in the in the
[17:25] photonics domain and in the electrical
[17:26] domain are something we're starting to
[17:28] manufacture and utilize those to really
[17:31] look at the different scenarios for
[17:32] packaging
[17:33] so something else we've done in pixap is
[17:35] starting to make lots of chips so for
[17:37] example this is a a
[17:39] device so wafer we've we've produced one
[17:42] of our partners linex so these are 10
[17:44] micron mode adapters um in in their
[17:47] silicon nitride platform and we also
[17:49] have interposers where we modify the
[17:52] input waveguide from 3 to 10. and
[17:55] essentially we can make hundreds of
[17:56] these chips so again this is something
[17:58] that's always been a bottleneck in
[18:00] packaging where you might be working on
[18:02] a process but through an mpw run you
[18:04] might have 50 chips if you're lucky or
[18:06] with a customer you might be limited
[18:08] so what we're doing here is developing a
[18:10] process where we have hundreds of chips
[18:12] and thousands of chips and similarly
[18:15] with our partner sus who are again a
[18:16] pixar partner and we're making hundreds
[18:19] of micro optics so in infused silica for
[18:22] example so we can automate processes
[18:24] where we're putting micro lenses onto
[18:26] the edge of pigs
[18:27] so this is kind of like an important
[18:29] development because you know one of our
[18:32] big issues is in in packaging
[18:33] development we don't have access to
[18:35] enough devices we don't have access to
[18:38] versatile devices so looking at how we
[18:41] arrange the package look at how the
[18:43] spacing how we organize it on the
[18:45] interposer and have lots of them as we
[18:47] start to scale up and develop and
[18:49] automate that process
[18:51] so just very briefly i mentioned about
[18:53] this new pro project we have photonic
[18:55] leap and the idea here is we're
[18:56] developing a surface mount package it's
[18:58] on glass
[18:59] so um it's a wafer level and we can go
[19:02] to panel level where we're putting um
[19:04] vias in the glass and using the glass
[19:06] base as an interposer we're sealing the
[19:09] glass from the top
[19:10] um and hermetic sealing and outer plane
[19:13] couplers using micro optics where we can
[19:15] have fiber connection at the top side
[19:18] this enables as we lay out the actual
[19:21] glass base or the interposer we can have
[19:23] different package configurations so it
[19:25] opens up the possibility of
[19:26] multi-project wafer runs so we can go
[19:28] from low volume to large volume and
[19:31] because it's a ball grid or right type
[19:33] package we can do automated wafer level
[19:35] test
[19:36] so this project really just started it
[19:38] started this year um and it's linking in
[19:41] with some of the developments within
[19:42] pixap and and kind of working together
[19:44] and we'd like to see other european
[19:46] projects for example where we can
[19:47] support them through our pilot line
[19:50] so i'll just leave it at that to open it
[19:51] up to any questions people might have
[19:53] but just to say um really you know
[19:56] developing the standards is important
[19:57] and it's not just in the chip how we lay
[19:59] out the chip these reference chips i've
[20:01] been talking about for a number of years
[20:03] but also how we lay out the package so
[20:06] we're developing kind of like in a sense
[20:07] reference interposers and how we lay out
[20:10] uh you know spacings between chips if
[20:13] they're thermally sensitive or if
[20:14] they're generating a lot of heat if
[20:16] they're very demanding from an
[20:18] interconnected rf interconnect
[20:19] perspective
[20:21] we're seeing more
[20:22] connections required for fiber pluggable
[20:24] connectors using micro optics where
[20:26] we're not bonding the fiber and
[20:29] epoxies are a really big challenge
[20:31] because they need to be reflow
[20:33] compatible so looking at high tg epoxies
[20:36] we have some good progress in that area
[20:38] um wafer level is becoming very
[20:40] important i mentioned about photonic
[20:42] leap and essentially packaging somewhat
[20:45] is moving from the back end into the
[20:47] front end it's moving more into the
[20:48] clean room at wafer level and uh design
[20:51] automation is becoming very important
[20:53] where we're looking at this using design
[20:55] rules but also linking up the different
[20:57] domains electrical thermal and
[20:59] mechanical
[21:00] so i'll leave it out and open it up to
[21:01] any questions uh thanks jose thank you
[21:04] very much peter i'm saying
[21:05] congratulations on what you have
[21:07] achieved over the last
[21:09] four years of pixar congratulations also
[21:11] from the european commission all the
[21:13] great feedback you're doing a fantastic
[21:15] an amazing job
[21:17] micro-optics we are leaving the european
[21:20] micro-optics revolution i believe that
[21:22] the wafer level optics that you can get
[21:23] from europe right now with companies
[21:25] like like accentures or zeus or
[21:28] nanoscribe they are they are an example
[21:30] to the whole industry and you already
[21:33] explained very clearly how you foresee
[21:35] the world the role of micro optics
[21:38] in the packaging you mentioned some of
[21:40] the materials you mentioned fuse silica
[21:43] i would like to hear a bit about your
[21:44] vision and most important your needs
[21:47] your main needs still for the for the
[21:49] micro optics in the packaging of
[21:51] photonic integration
[21:54] yeah so i think one of the big issues
[21:55] that we face is around the bonding
[21:57] materials like epoxies can be very very
[22:00] um
[22:02] most cases they're they're not great um
[22:04] so people talk about reflow compatible
[22:06] uh you know what does that mean so a lot
[22:09] of epoxies were developed for things
[22:10] like leds but when you're down at a
[22:12] micron precision alignment requirements
[22:15] these epoxies often can expand they may
[22:18] not contract so
[22:20] under reflow 260 for example they may
[22:22] not
[22:23] recover their original position we can
[22:26] see them fail so they soften to the
[22:28] point where multiple cycles can cause a
[22:30] problem
[22:32] in quantum we see interest in cryogenic
[22:34] cooling so we've seen epoxies fail so it
[22:37] goes from one extreme to the other um
[22:40] and there are interesting materials so
[22:42] you can end up with kind of two-part
[22:44] type epoxy solutions where you have a
[22:46] mechanical you might have an optical
[22:48] epoxy you know you need to partition
[22:50] them things like that um but also
[22:53] solders are becoming interesting so
[22:54] replacing epoxies with solders so
[22:57] metallizing metallizing the micro lens
[23:00] so you can actually solder the the
[23:02] materials into place so i really think
[23:04] around the materials the packaging
[23:06] materials are where one of the big
[23:07] challenges that need to be addressed
[23:10] micro optics are fantastic the first
[23:12] time we met 20 15 years ago peter you
[23:15] may you already made a difference in the
[23:17] packaging of photonic integration
[23:18] because you added console simulations
[23:22] when nobody was doing them because you
[23:23] knew that temperature was the biggest
[23:25] issue there are two companies in the
[23:26] room who i think need to interact with
[23:28] you at this stage the first one the
[23:29] first one and you know them very well is
[23:31] coming all the way from beautiful
[23:34] it's called nanoscribe and then scribe
[23:37] has actually a very interesting question
[23:38] for you george what's on your mind
[23:43] hello everybody nice to be back here
[23:44] again here
[23:46] peter i have a question you talk about
[23:48] a lot of standards you have aim now on
[23:50] the board so you're cooperating with
[23:52] them together so my main question is do
[23:55] you have any idea how much the standards
[23:57] are accepted worldwide or is it a
[24:00] difference if you say eu us and other
[24:02] countries i mean
[24:04] most of the foundry still have their own
[24:06] standards for coupling measures for spot
[24:08] size converters anything you name it
[24:12] so are we at fifty percent
[24:14] twenty percent depend where is it better
[24:17] you will eus are you able to measure
[24:20] this
[24:21] yeah so um it's a good question really
[24:24] there's there's no standards i call them
[24:26] soft standards what we're trying to do
[24:27] is get everybody moving in the same
[24:29] direction so collaborations with uh
[24:31] people like stefan and name we're
[24:33] starting to kind of speak the same
[24:34] language we're starting to kind of lay
[24:36] out devices in the same configuration
[24:38] we're sharing our experiences i think
[24:41] the uh you've got
[24:43] the other challenge then is um
[24:45] you've got different foundries as you
[24:47] say there is a move towards higher mode
[24:49] sizes so more compatibility with a
[24:52] single mode fiber so moving from three
[24:55] you often see this tray to six to nine
[24:58] ten microns at fifteen fifty it's moving
[25:01] there
[25:02] to to to kind of fix standards now might
[25:04] be too premature and however what i
[25:07] would say is there's best practice so
[25:09] laying out uh edge couplers in a
[25:12] particular way i don't think anyone's
[25:14] doing that anymore because there's so
[25:15] many courses you know pitches and so
[25:17] forth so really hard and fast standards
[25:21] no not yet but people are starting to
[25:23] kind of realize what's important and
[25:25] it'll probably take time to you know a
[25:27] couple of years before we start to see
[25:29] things being documented and being fixed
[25:33] furthermore you should know peter that
[25:35] over the last years we started having
[25:37] these packaging houses these packaging
[25:40] centers these european osa it's like fix
[25:43] and technology so you know them very
[25:44] well what we're seeing lately is also
[25:47] testing houses
[25:49] like maple or like vlc i believe we have
[25:51] somebody from vlc in the room
[25:54] alberto buenas tardes good afternoon
[25:57] yeah i wanted to talk to you at this
[25:58] moment because i wanted to understand
[26:00] alberto how it is to set up a testing
[26:03] facility or photonic internet circuit
[26:05] and also see if there is a room for
[26:07] cooperation with pixap
[26:10] alberto we cannot hear you that makes me
[26:12] nervous maybe now yes exactly perfect
[26:16] so
[26:16] good morning good afternoon everyone
[26:19] uh yeah i think so there is room for
[26:22] cooperation with pixab of course
[26:25] we are quite interesting on
[26:29] yeah all the information
[26:32] can you hear me well loud and clear okay
[26:34] perfect
[26:36] um so yeah
[26:39] um but
[26:40] at vlc we have
[26:44] uh
[26:46] we have uh
[26:46] been working on a side contact machine
[26:48] to be flexible uh to adapt all the needs
[26:52] from our customers
[26:54] which is quite ambitious and
[26:58] you probably are aware of the
[26:59] complexities of building a setup an
[27:02] optical setup
[27:03] which requires
[27:04] adapting the the equipment the tools
[27:07] modifying for the different couplings
[27:10] and uh performing on electrical uh
[27:14] methodologies
[27:15] uh
[27:16] so
[27:17] yeah
[27:18] that
[27:20] goal that we
[27:21] are trying to to get is quite ambitious
[27:24] and of course uh
[27:26] i guess being aligned with standards
[27:28] and with good practices to make it more
[27:31] flexible more accessible for customers
[27:34] and for everyone to have a good
[27:36] configuration of these machines
[27:39] it's it's a need
[27:42] thank you very much alberto peter do you
[27:44] foresee pixab being also the entry point
[27:47] for testing and has been the entry point
[27:49] for packaging already
[27:51] so we already do some testing with our
[27:53] partners in tue um so they've been
[27:55] working with uh falcon tech and
[27:56] developing uh sylvester uh in toa has
[28:00] been doing quite a bit of work in that
[28:01] as well so they have a test machine
[28:04] developed with their moritz for example
[28:06] in fighting tech and that that's ongoing
[28:08] but absolutely absolutely um you know
[28:12] keen to kind of expand that i think one
[28:15] of the big one of the big issues we face
[28:18] in all of this and it's probably my
[28:19] takeaway message i always try to give
[28:20] her what's the take away message we need
[28:22] more chips we need a lot more chips for
[28:25] development i think that's one of the
[28:26] big impediments um you know even it
[28:29] picks up we find we work with some big
[28:31] companies and they can bring in more
[28:33] chips but it's not lots of chips and i
[28:35] think that's a big problem and the chips
[28:38] all have to be managed very carefully
[28:39] you can't use them for development so
[28:41] this is this was kind of almost out of
[28:43] frustration like the design rules we
[28:45] started out of frustration in some sense
[28:47] we wanted to make more chips make them
[28:49] cheap make lots of them so we can you
[28:52] know give them out to people but also
[28:53] use them ourselves because i think that
[28:55] is one of the big problems so getting
[28:58] lots of chips and access to them so you
[28:59] can
[29:00] optimize
[29:01] run automated processes um so for
[29:05] example
[29:06] getting hundreds of chips we need
[29:07] cooperation with foundries you mean to
[29:10] to to further cooperation with foundries
[29:13] not corporations to pay them to get them
[29:15] so it could be like maybe everybody
[29:17] comes together and does a run where we
[29:19] get lots of chips each but it's just
[29:22] getting lots of chips is a big problem
[29:24] so that's what i mentioned in my
[29:25] presentation it's something we're
[29:26] starting to work on we need more and
[29:28] more devices even genetic ones thank you
[29:31] very much peter before we go to the next
[29:32] speaker that he's desperate already and
[29:34] i know that he's fantastic i want to
[29:36] address your challenge on the on the
[29:38] glues that you need the adhesives that
[29:40] you need for the micro optics to
[29:42] photonic internet circuits and for this
[29:44] i want to go to one of the pixab
[29:46] partners and the leader of the micro
[29:47] optics revolution suse micro optics
[29:49] wilfred good afternoon
[29:51] oh how are you
[29:53] you are giving micro optics to many of
[29:55] the or the leaders in
[29:57] in many sectors including data com
[29:59] telecom
[30:00] is is there adhesives from between the
[30:02] micro optics and the integrity photonics
[30:04] a challenge
[30:06] oh there's a lot of challenges so
[30:08] especially if we need to integrate more
[30:10] and more features so this is actually
[30:12] becoming a very tricky
[30:14] and
[30:15] but
[30:16] we have some solutions there and then
[30:18] depending on the application and and we
[30:20] offer more and more extra features can i
[30:22] can i share a slide yes please go ahead
[30:24] of course everybody can share one slide
[30:27] here we go um so here here have an
[30:30] overview of of the different features
[30:32] that we offer and actually some of these
[30:35] we are going we provided for
[30:37] for picks up so peter has them on his
[30:40] desk
[30:41] so metaphorically spoken but but we also
[30:44] have a lot of
[30:47] special features now that we want to
[30:49] further develop in in in photonic leap
[30:52] for example the
[30:54] what you see at the top right the the
[30:56] mirrors integrated mirrors that allow
[30:58] you a 30 degrees turn so this is a
[31:00] highly integrated design which which
[31:03] will can facilitate your packaging
[31:06] tremendously so it's actually already a
[31:08] product but it's a custom design for one
[31:10] of our clients
[31:11] and um
[31:13] and but we want to give it to broader
[31:15] community by by offering it through
[31:18] photonic leap
[31:20] at the same time we have the uh
[31:23] we offer soda bombs and also through
[31:25] silicon vias that that should all make
[31:27] your packaging much easier and and this
[31:29] is actually also very common design that
[31:31] we produce in high volume these are what
[31:33] we call the recessed lenses when you
[31:35] want to stack
[31:36] and here we also gave a bunch this is
[31:39] like i said a volume product but this is
[31:40] also a design that we provided to
[31:43] picks up and which is available uh uh
[31:46] through photonically probably as well
[31:48] for different companies for packaging
[31:50] tests
[31:51] thank you very much and to add to that
[31:54] we have cscm in the room stefan thank
[31:56] you very much for joining us stefan
[31:58] mordeck from csem what's on your mind
[32:04] in my mind
[32:06] yeah i was thinking about the
[32:08] adhesive bonding which should sustain
[32:12] high temperatures i was wondering um
[32:15] why you wouldn't uh go here for uh say
[32:18] regular bonding schemes and and
[32:21] if you want to make it rugged uh so
[32:23] atheists so they have some disadvantages
[32:26] in the long term so they may creep and
[32:29] there's water aggression if you want to
[32:31] get uh stuff hermetic
[32:34] so i was wondering if there wouldn't be
[32:36] any other types of technologies you
[32:39] could use here for
[32:41] fixing components or
[32:43] actually i'm not wondering so there
[32:45] there are
[32:46] i mean you can solder
[32:48] any any type of component and if you can
[32:50] do it
[32:52] uh
[32:52] on
[32:53] say low cost um path
[32:57] then it would be a big benefit i think
[32:59] there there is some opportunity here
[33:02] for the research community to improve
[33:06] yeah
[33:07] the issue is that we don't have a
[33:09] machine that can do the soldering and
[33:10] the alignment in one go at the moment so
[33:13] there you go if i contact there's a
[33:15] challenge for you
[33:16] so i i agree here with stefan in which
[33:19] we cannot reinvent the wheel we are
[33:21] having one event on micro optics almost
[33:23] per month because it's one of the
[33:24] biggest markets right now in the
[33:26] european optical community and there we
[33:28] are talking about new materials
[33:30] constantly and ways to deploy them and
[33:32] ways to actually use active and passive
[33:34] alignment so i believe that for photonic
[33:37] intraday circuit there is a wilfred zeus
[33:40] you have to be the link here between two
[33:41] communities we have to build stronger
[33:43] bridges to make sure that the technology
[33:45] of fabulous pilot line for example can
[33:47] benefit the technology of pixab peter
[33:50] thank you very much stay with us because
[33:52] i'm going to come back to you a bit
[33:54] later but now i'm going to go from
[33:56] ireland from ireland all the way to
[33:58] canada and i want to go to canada
[34:01] because i want to talk to alexander
[34:03] janta or main contact in ibm bromont to
[34:06] tell us about what happened in the last
[34:08] months and also tell us how we can
[34:10] strengthen new cooperation alexander
[34:12] thank you very much for interacting with
[34:13] so many members after the previous
[34:15] meeting the floor and the attention of
[34:16] everyone goes to bramant goes to ibm
[34:20] thank you joseph for the introduction so
[34:22] hi everyone we're very happy to be there
[34:24] today uh today i will present some of
[34:26] our offering uh for photonic packaging
[34:29] and i will also to disclose um there's
[34:31] this new satellite initiative from
[34:34] europe and canada and there's some
[34:35] incentive to collaborate together
[34:38] because there is a need for this
[34:40] interoperability of this new internet in
[34:42] the space
[34:43] so today i will present some of our
[34:45] packaging building block and as you know
[34:46] those novel space technology will use
[02:10:52] you