# Economist’s WARNING - The End of Capitalism Is Here!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-NRxyaY1_w

[00:00] This system is very good at co-opting and at violently repressing alternatives.
[00:05] And right now we are literally about to extinguish humanity because of how violent this economic system is.
[00:12] So it's no longer compatible.
[00:15] Welcome back to the tea.
[00:16] I'm your host Miriam.
[00:19] Is this the final stages of capitalism?
[00:22] Today over half of people globally believe that capitalism does more harm than good.
[00:29] And the younger you are, the less likely you are to see its benefits.
[00:31] And it's not exactly hard to see why.
[00:34] 15 years on from Occupy Wall Street and the rallying cry of we are the 99% frustration with the economic system has only deepened.
[00:42] Across much of the world, people are struggling with rising living costs, unaffordable housing, stagnant wages, debt, burnout, and growing insecurity.
[00:51] While corporations, banks, and defense companies continue posting record profits, according to Oxfam, the richest 1% now own more wealth than 95%
[01:02] of humanity.
[01:05] In the UK alone, one in three children now lives in poverty.
[01:08] Add growing fears around AI with the World Economic Forum estimating that 92 million jobs could be displaced by 2030 and the collapsing trust in institutions, rising far-right movements across the world, climate collapse, and younger generations are increasingly questioning whether the system they inherited is actually working.
[01:28] Since the end of the Cold War, capitalism has become the dominant global economic system.
[01:34] Even countries still ruled by communist parties like China are deeply integrated into global markets.
[01:39] And while many feel frustrated with capitalism, it sometimes feels impossible to imagine an alternative system.
[01:45] So today we're asking, is another world even possible?
[01:50] And what will it take to usher it in?
[01:53] Well, joining me today is Claraara Mate, economist, political theorist, and a foundational voice for the forum for real economic emancipation.
[02:01] That's free to you and me.
[02:01] Her first book, The
[02:03] Capital Order, was named one of the best economics books of the year by the Financial Times and won the prestigious Herbert Baxter Adams Prize.
[02:09] Now, she's back with a groundbreaking manifesto that Greek economist Januzis Verifakis says restores hope that everything could be different.
[02:19] In her latest work, Escape from Capitalism, she argues that poverty, inequality, and are basically permanent crises that we see today.
[02:26] They're not bugs in the system.
[02:29] They're the system functioning exactly as designed.
[02:33] Clara Mate, welcome to the show.
[02:35] It's so lovely to be here.
[02:36] Thank you.
[02:37] Thanks for being with us.
[02:40] Um, so your work is informed by a really interesting personal backstory and I was just wondering if you might be able to share a little bit about that and kind of how it feeds into the way that you see the world and the work that you do.
[02:51] So um, I'm lucky enough to come from a family who resisted fascism concretely putting their bodies on the line.
[02:57] So the book is kind of inspired by the courage of my great uncle John Franco Mate who was um,
[03:07] a chemist.
[03:08] He was a professor of chemistry, very young, 26, and he was making the bombs um against the fascist and Nazi occupation in Italy.
[03:16] Uh you know, the Nazis were at a certain point became our enemies while they were in uh Italy.
[03:20] And um he was working with the partisans, the resistance, and he was caught.
[03:25] He was tortured for three days and then decided to actually commit suicide.
[03:29] He hung himself with his own shoelaces uh because he knew that he was going to not make it and not like calling out his comrades.
[03:37] So, he really did it out of a form of like solidarity, not to um yeah, rat people out.
[03:40] And um and he left a really um really intense note to his parents um be on the back of a check that he was able to give to his cellmate and it reached the family saying, you know, be strong knowing that I've been strong, too.
[03:57] But you know what's very sad is that um my family members like many other people still today um who fight they are fighting for a liberation.
[04:05] And of course this liberation in Italy never really
[04:09] happened you know because yes you were liberated from fascism but the institutional continuity especially with economic policies was really really terrible.
[04:19] um terrible.
[04:21] the sense that that austerity that Mussolini was so good at enacting austerity policies are the same ones that continued after his fall and continue today to shape our lives producing all the disasters that you were just describing.
[04:34] So what is the connection between I guess austerity and fascism and what is the resistance movement that you see yourself as part of a lineage of today?
[04:44] How is that resistance represented today?
[04:47] Uh first of all, it's really important to demystify the idea that fascism is somehow not capitalist.
[04:56] And this is really important because our history books tend to speak about fascism as something that is the corruption of the system that we want, right?
[05:04] And there's this big divide between fascism and liberalism that is really in our minds.
[05:06] We think of them as really worlds apart.
[05:11] Um, if you focus on the economics of the two supposed opposite, opposite ideologies, you find out that there are very much an alliance when it comes to protecting what I call the capital order, namely wage, labor, and exploitation as the foundation of this economy.
[05:28] So in moments of existential threat to our economic system, and again, I really want to stress that history shows how the system is not permanent, is not universal, it's not natural, it has to be constantly protected.
[05:40] And there are moments in which people rise up more strongly than others, and after the First World War, this was one of the moments in which, in fact, you know, there's so many alternatives that were being experimented with, even in the UK.
[05:55] In these moments, you know, the elite react, they react very efficiently, and they react very powerfully, and they do it with austerity.
[06:01] And why? Because austerity really works as it should.
[06:03] They tell us that austerity helps balance the budget and in a way, like us live within our means and be virtuous.
[06:13] economic agents.
[06:15] This is of course a lie.
[06:18] What austerity works for is what it should be doing, which is subordinating working people into accepting their position as workers that have lost agency in the workplace.
[06:29] And also don't get to keep the value they produce, right?
[06:33] Which is actually what exploitation is about.
[06:35] And again, it's not even about how much money you make.
[06:39] It's the fact that you literally don't get to hold on to what you've done.
[06:43] And most of the time, you're working for a bottom line you don't believe in.
[06:45] You know, we know many people who are doing pretty well working for Google or any of these big companies that I mean they are supporting the genocide and the Israeli military.
[06:55] So, everyone is trapped.
[06:58] Also, those who think of themselves as being supposed middle class, they are they are workers by definition because they're not in charge of their lives basically anymore.
[07:07] The point is that in moments of existential crisis that again exist and continue to exist, austerity operates very effectively to keep us u
[07:15] Disciplined. How?
[07:18] Well, by taking away our resources that allow us to live decently, right?
[07:23] So, cuts in social expenditures is a very good case in point.
[07:27] Cuts in social expenditure is bad for us as people because of course um we are increasingly dependent on the market.
[07:35] Meaning that everything we need we need to buy, right?
[07:40] And if they cut education, if they cut health care, if they cut transport, we know we will need to purchase those goods.
[07:44] And this means that we will be even more willing to go work for whatever job to be able to get to the end of the month.
[07:51] You know, the privatized utilities, etc. what we're seeing today.
[07:56] In the meantime, the state shifts those resources in favor of the saving investing elite, those who are indeed benefiting from the system by de-risking, subsidizing, you know, incentivizing private investment.
[08:09] And this is exactly what capitalism requires is economic policies that actively
[08:15] intervene to make us more precarious.
[08:19] while protecting and encasing those who benefit.
[08:22] So this has happened historically over and over and know austerity is not about is not just about cuts in social expenditures.
[08:28] It's also about increases in taxes for labor while capital is structurally detached.
[08:36] So regressive taxation again it's not about the state stepping back it's about the state actually shifting diverting resources those resources that we as workers create by the way the whole point is that all these policies are those that fascist governments were very good at doing and Mussolini was adored by the liberal elites like Montagu Norman the head of the bank of England the times the economist magazine they were all applauding because Mussolini was imposing on the austerity measures that allowed to keep the workers at bay in a moment in which they were really revoling and presenting alternatives.
[09:13] Okay.
[09:13] So we are going to get into uh austerity much more in a bit.
[09:17] but before I do I want you to help our audience understand because not everyone will be obviously uh an expert economist watching this.
[09:23] You describe yourself as an anti- capitalist political economist and your work clearly draws from the Marxist tradition.
[09:28] What makes your approach to economics different from that of other economists from the mainstream?
[09:35] Everything I would say.
[09:38] So the book Escape from Capitalism is the result of me teaching for many years at the university and really um helping students rese.
[09:57] And this is what different economic theories do, right?
[10:00] They allow you to see the world differently and thus act differently and see problems that otherwise you wouldn't see.
[10:07] And unfortunately um maybe not many people know but if you get stuck in a course in economics um at the university you will realize that unfortunately the way the
[10:19] discipline is taught is meant to blind you from the real problem.
[10:25] So economics is not a universal method.
[10:29] It's there's different traditions competing with one another.
[10:33] And the dominant one that is called mainstream or neocclassical um is really dominant because it serves the system by blinding us from the real problems.
[10:43] I'll give you just one example.
[10:44] There's many.
[10:47] Markets are presented as the world of opportunity.
[10:49] So if you take a course in econ they'll tell you know the market is the most efficient way to maximize consumers preferences.
[10:56] This is exactly what they say and this is a complete subversion of reality because the market is actually not the realm of opportunity and freedom.
[11:05] It's the realm of coercion.
[11:07] It's we have become under capitalism market dependent meaning that we rely on the market for survival.
[11:12] And this means that we become instrumental to the market.
[11:14] And so you see already
[11:19] there is that if you focus on the market as the relevant opportunity you miss out what is actually happening which is that that that market rests on exploitation of workers that economists never talk about and never see because for an economist they tell you value comes from the capacity to save and invest of the virtuous entrepreneur.
[11:39] This is actually the line, right?
[11:41] It's like the virtuous entrepreneur is the one we have to really think because they are those who produce value in society because they're driving innovation.
[11:52] They take the risk.
[11:54] They're the ones who hire the workers.
[11:57] So somehow it seems like that is the key to understand the supposed progress under capitalism.
[11:59] And you see how in this worldview everything makes a lot of sense.
[12:04] then we are in the best of all possible worlds because it's a very fair world in which everyone just get what they put in right so in the models you have the capitalist putting in capital the worker putting in work and everyone is getting according to their
[12:20] marginal productivity of their inputs so
[12:23] this seems like a very fair deal
[12:25] so it all calibrates in the market
[12:27] basically we're told these markets
[12:29] operate freely this is the free hand of
[12:31] Adam Smith that we're taught you know in
[12:33] my BA A in economics, I bet you could
[12:36] just about remember. So, so this
[12:38] freehand is where there's a calibration
[12:40] between supply and demand. You would
[12:42] dispute that. Is that right?
[12:44] Yes, absolutely. I would say, you know,
[12:46] that's a very abstract understanding.
[12:48] Um, if like anyone who lives under
[12:51] capitalism understands that the market
[12:53] is not this harmonious world of um
[12:57] competition in which everyone like
[12:59] maximizes their potential. It's the
[13:01] opposite. We are it's really about real
[13:04] competition and cutthroat war of
[13:07] everyone against everyone. You know,
[13:09] workers are pitted against each other,
[13:10] pitted against, of course, those who
[13:12] exploit them. And the capitalists
[13:14] themselves
[13:16] compete in a way that is very brutal.
[13:18] Um, you know, I took an Uber to get here
[13:20] and the driver just told me, you know,
[13:22] yeah, Uber's worried about competition.
[13:25] They brought the price down.
[13:27] But what does bringing the price down mean?
[13:29] It means that it goes on the shoulders of the Uber drivers who now not only have to pay higher gasoline prices because of the imperialist wars abroad but also um they're bearing the cost of this increasing exploitation that is the way in which you win real competition under in in this market.
[13:44] So you know the way we understand the market makes no sense because it's not reflected in reality.
[13:51] And this is the point about economics.
[13:53] What one studies at school unfortunately is that it's a way to really distort what would be instead an intuitive understanding you have by living in this economy.
[14:03] They brainwash you to the point that you see these things that never are because again like it's not about equality and justice.
[14:10] It's really about the subordination of those below us that are producing all the value.
[14:15] But exploitation is not in those models.
[14:16] So, in this book, I'm building off of a
[14:20] tradition that is now not considered at school, unfortunately, which is the tradition of classical political economy, dating back to Adam Smith himself.
[14:28] Um, who in fact you only remember the invisible hand because that's all they teach you.
[14:32] But Adam Smith actually saw the conflict between capital and labor and talked about it.
[14:39] And then Ricardo and Marx and many other theories after that.
[14:41] Um so obviously we're speaking today on the backdrop of you know what many think of as latestage capitalism.
[14:48] I don't know if that would be your assessment.
[14:50] Globally around 56% of people say capitalism as it exists today does more harm than good.
[14:55] In the US just 40% of under30s today view capitalism positively.
[14:59] It's the first time in Pew's polling his in history that younger Americans are viewing socialism almost as favorably sometimes more favorably than capitalism.
[15:08] So why is capitalism in crisis and why in particular are young people experiencing it as in crisis?
[15:20] I believe that notwithstanding all of
[15:24] the doctrines that are there to to make us accept the system to make us passively consent to it.
[15:35] Um right now the economic violence is so obvious that those ideologies um aren't working as they should in keeping us um blind and accepting and I think the younger generation is the one who is uh showing this embodying this very very clearly.
[15:54] The young generation, I think, is able to see what no public debate wants to even touch on, which is that there is a real clear contradiction between the logic of profit and the logic of need.
[16:08] Many supposed progressive economists take the really the wrong line by telling you that what we're seeing right now is a malfunctioning of capitalism.
[16:18] that the economy is not working, that the economy is not growing, that the problem is really that you know there's some form of internal
[16:25] corruption being excessive financialization,
[16:29] excessive monopoly power that is taking away competition, you know, those narratives that somehow tell you that the problem is not the system as such.
[16:37] It's some malfunctioning or corruption of the system.
[16:38] You know, crony capitalism, whatever.
[16:43] Um this is something that I think young generations are realizing is already a problem in how we frame this because the problem is not the malfunctioning of capitalism.
[16:52] problem is that capitalism is delivering what it always was meant to deliver, namely capital accumulation that is heavily concentrated at the top and the fact that now like the big three, Black Rockck, Vanguard, and Easy Street basically hold on to and are able to manage the majority of the wealth in the planet is not, you know, a corruption of capitalism.
[17:14] It's the result of real competition that concentrates economic and political power.
[17:19] So I think right now the young generation realizes that what we're seeing is the system working as it should and know genocide,
[17:28] militarism, high unemployment is what the system produces and needs to accumulate at even faster speeds.
[17:37] And of course this is goes against what is rational for us which is care and sustainability.
[17:43] But that was never meant to be part of what capitalism took care of.
[17:47] Right? capitalism works upon an abstract logic that couldn't care less about nature and especially about humanity.
[17:56] So is that what makes your argument distinct?
[17:58] Because I think obviously there there are quite a lot of voices today who argue that you know there's a serious problem with the economic uh system.
[18:05] You know Thomas [ __ ] obviously he argues that capitalism naturally concentrates wealth because people who own assets like property and stocks see their wealth grow faster than people who rely on wages.
[18:16] Grace Blakeley, whom we've had on the show, argues that modern capitalism is increasingly driven by kind of close alliances between governments, big corporations and the financial sector.
[18:24] I mean, what's distinct about your argument, specifically the idea that the system
[18:29] itself is the problem as opposed to bugs in the system?
[18:33] Absolutely.
[18:33] We need a systemic analysis that is able to give us the big picture and then we can focus on the specifics.
[18:41] And the big picture is that this is capitalism working as it should.
[18:47] And this is in fact different from a lot of the Marxan uh thinkers um that try to instead suggest that the problem you know is this divide between the real and the financial economy.
[18:57] This distinction is purely false.
[19:00] It's not like the problem is finance and the real industry is like so so virtuous and good for us.
[19:07] No, the two have always gone together.
[19:09] What we see is just the acceleration of what always was, which is a system that from the very beginning, the origins of capitalism and know the UK is the cradle of the system was all based on the violent appropriation of common resources, right?
[19:26] So what we called the enclosure of the commons was a form of
[19:31] austerity because again austerity isn't the DNA of the system because there's nothing spontaneous to it.
[19:36] There's always states, governments intervening to make it happen.
[19:39] And how did it happen at the beginning?
[19:41] Well, the parliament, the bourgeoa parliament uh decided to um approve laws that allowed for the privatizations of those spaces, those lands, those resources that were allowing people to survive independently from the market.
[19:59] And once you privatize our means of survival, then of course you have a lot of people who are willing to come and you know work for the industrial revolution.
[20:08] Well, guess what?
[20:10] There wouldn't have been that industrial revolution if you hadn't really uprooted people from their lands.
[20:13] Well, speaking of land, um we're currently living in what activists and researchers called global land grab.
[20:21] As of 2026, roughly 100 families now own approximately 42 million acres of land in the United States.
[20:28] more and more of the land uh world's land is being owned by a very
[20:32] small number of corporations,
[20:33] billionaires and institutions. Bill
[20:35] Gates is the largest owner of farmland
[20:37] in the US with around 275,000 acres
[20:40] across almost 20 states. And in the UK,
[20:43] Danish billionaire Anders Hulsh
[20:46] Pulverson, who many of us will never
[20:47] have heard of, owns more than 220,000
[20:50] acres in Scotland, while of course the
[20:52] Crown Estate controls about 615,000.
[20:56] So why are all of these billionaires and
[20:59] millionaires buying up land?
[21:01] The the underlying principles never
[21:04] changed. You know, land is the most
[21:07] important means of survi survival for
[21:11] humanity that has been made into a
[21:14] commodity. And this means that has been
[21:16] separated from the logic of need and
[21:19] utilized instrumentalized
[21:22] um to foster the logic of profit. And
[21:24] right now we know that of course with
[21:26] the ecological catastrophe land is even
[21:29] more precious and you know agro business
[21:31] is one of the most uh most successful um
[21:35] sectors but you know this is very clear
[21:38] example in Brazil one of the countries
[21:40] in which there's the biggest amount of
[21:42] starving children and you know this
[21:44] world does not feed us right we know
[21:46] that there is o over two billion people
[21:48] on the planet who are food insecure and
[21:52] uh the numbers even the world Inc has to
[21:54] admit if you look at the current data
[21:56] that the numbers of uh malnutrition and
[22:00] food insecurity have gone up, right? And
[22:02] of course, especially because of what
[22:03] we're doing all over the Middle East and
[22:05] and also Africa that we always forget
[22:07] about. Um and so while capitalism is not
[22:12] meant to feed us, it can really thrive
[22:16] off of food business. And in Brazil,
[22:19] they are the biggest exporters of food.
[22:23] all around the world while their own
[22:24] population is actually starving. So you
[22:27] see the land becomes a space where the
[22:30] workers suffer to produce food that is
[22:32] then going to be exported abroad. And
[22:34] the global south sees this every day and
[22:36] not by accident. Every hour there's $30
[22:38] million that are being
[22:41] extracted from the global south to the
[22:44] rich of the global north. So you know
[22:46] the the trajectory every hour and this
[22:48] is Oxfam data. to the whole story that
[22:50] we are the good people bringing
[22:51] humanitarian aid. No, no, no. I'm sorry.
[22:54] Like they are aiding us because all we
[22:57] are extracting everything they have and
[22:59] land is of course part of it,
[23:00] right? And um this is the argument made
[23:02] in the book uh the underdevelopment uh
[23:04] of Africa, right? Which is based on I
[23:06] think very much this idea that Africa is
[23:09] subsidizing our lifestyles. Um so um let
[23:12] me just come back to this idea that
[23:13] evidence that that that inequality and
[23:15] exploitation the sort of systemic
[23:16] features of of capitalism uh as opposed
[23:19] to state capture by elites because of
[23:20] course many of your colleagues would
[23:22] disagree with that analysis right so
[23:23] economists like the Nobel Prize winners
[23:25] Darren Asimoglu apologize for the
[23:27] pronunciation James Robinson they argue
[23:30] that the real problem is not markets
[23:33] themselves but what they call extractive
[23:35] institutions systems where political and
[23:36] economic power get concentrated in the
[23:39] hands of a few. So they basically say
[23:41] that markets can generate broad
[23:43] prosperity when institutions are
[23:45] democratic and inclusive. So the real
[23:47] danger is elite capture. So is the
[23:50] problem elite capture?
[23:52] My goodness, I don't know even where to
[23:54] start. This is a great example of how
[23:57] pernicious supposed progressive ideas
[24:00] can be in blinding us even further. And
[24:03] you know I had the occasion of meeting
[24:05] um Robinson on the John Stewart show
[24:08] which was quite an experience because
[24:10] it's difficult to imagine how convinced
[24:13] these people of outmost lies that are
[24:17] really really detrimental to any social
[24:20] transformation. So you see here the idea
[24:23] is that for them the market is the realm
[24:25] of democracy and freedom and opportunity
[24:27] and then there's something from outside
[24:30] that is encroaching and you see these
[24:32] supposed progressive economists they
[24:34] distinguish themselves from the
[24:36] mainstream neocclassicals by saying look
[24:38] we're not idealizing the markets we are
[24:40] saying that there's nothing pure in the
[24:43] markets that there is some institutional
[24:45] intervention but then at this point they
[24:48] do this to then put the blame on the
[24:50] institutions rather than the market
[24:52] itself. So they pretend they're
[24:54] distinguishing themselves from the the
[24:56] neocclassicals, but they're not because
[24:57] the underlying assumption is that
[25:00] markets and democracy go hand in hand.
[25:02] And what I want to stress is that the
[25:05] reason why I'm not denying there's
[25:07] corrupt institutions and it is the case
[25:09] that in the global south, like in the
[25:11] global north, there are corrupt
[25:12] institutions. But you can't reduce it.
[25:15] As Robinson literally said on the show,
[25:17] the Colombians are poor because their
[25:19] governments are corrupt. This is the way
[25:21] you see. You're again putting the blame
[25:24] on the victims. A, and B, not realizing
[25:27] that the reason why corruption exists is
[25:30] because our governments are catered
[25:35] for and to an economy that is profoundly
[25:38] anti-democratic
[25:40] and based on systemic corruption. like
[25:42] my colleague Camila Vgara speaks about
[25:44] she's an amazing political theorist and
[25:45] shows that you know there are
[25:47] constitutions there is the political
[25:51] element that allows for the supposed
[25:55] market to operate as they do in this
[25:57] exploitative oligarchic way. So you see
[26:00] the point is that the markets themselves
[26:02] are anti-democratic because there's
[26:04] based on exploitation and thus they
[26:05] produce corrupt institutions that are
[26:08] the ones that keep protecting those very
[26:11] elites that benefit from this
[26:12] exploitation. So their analysis should
[26:15] be just turned upside down, right? And
[26:17] instead what they do is that they try to
[26:18] create this false divide so that they
[26:20] can blame a the workers themselves and
[26:22] you know the people living in the global
[26:24] south. And by the way, seven out of
[26:26] eight people live in the global south.
[26:27] So basically, you're trying again to
[26:30] somehow propose that these people will
[26:33] catch up to the great progressive
[26:35] institutions of the global north because
[26:36] that's another like insane story
[26:38] economist telling you is that you know
[26:40] yes there are underdeveloped but they
[26:42] will catch up if they adopt the most
[26:45] efficient institutions if they open up
[26:47] to the markets if they you know
[26:50] liberalize that's a lie. The reality is
[26:53] that we are rich because they are poor.
[26:56] And so our development creates their
[26:58] underdevelopment and the corrupt
[27:00] institutions are the product of this
[27:02] fundamental economic inequality that
[27:05] goes deep deep into the system. Well, on
[27:08] that note, because um that that is the
[27:10] dominant view, right, that progress will
[27:12] follow if you know they follow certain
[27:13] economic models. Um, the most common
[27:16] defense of capitalism that I'm sure
[27:17] you're familiar with is that despite all
[27:19] its brutality, which is often
[27:21] acknowledged, it's somehow lifted
[27:23] hundreds of millions of people out of
[27:25] extreme poverty, especially in Asia. So,
[27:28] according to the World Bank, extreme
[27:30] poverty fell from around 2.3 billion in
[27:33] 1990 to 831 million in 2025. Our world
[27:36] and data also says the last three
[27:39] decades saw faster progress against
[27:41] extreme poverty than ever before. So,
[27:43] how do you respond to people who say,
[27:46] "Yep, capitalism unequal, violent, but
[27:50] no other system has delivered that scale
[27:52] of material improvement globally."
[27:54] Something's been happening to this show
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[29:37] First of all, because the metrics that
[29:39] we use to um
[29:45] qualify and read reality are metrics
[29:48] that serve the function of justifying
[29:51] our economic system, right? And and GDP
[29:53] or GMP is a clear example because what
[29:56] these economists do is actually measure
[29:59] per capita income. And per capita
[30:01] income, by the way, never tells you
[30:03] about the distribution. It just is an
[30:05] addition of the value of goods and
[30:08] services. You see, and this is already a
[30:11] very abstract measure that really only
[30:15] qualifies like well-being in terms of
[30:19] basically prices, right? So, it's
[30:22] reducing our qualification of our
[30:24] existence to those categories that help
[30:28] the system shine for what of course the
[30:31] system does. It does produce a lot of
[30:33] value. But this is an abstraction as
[30:34] Markx told us from the beginning like
[30:36] the fact that our society focuses on
[30:39] value production is exactly what he
[30:42] defined fetishism and it's interesting
[30:44] because Marx was using fetishism exactly
[30:47] to tell the west hey you guys you think
[30:50] that you're so much more civilized than
[30:52] those population in Africa who you know
[30:54] adore a totem and they fetishize this
[30:56] totem but you don't understand that your
[30:59] level of fetishism is much more
[31:02] pernicious and universal because now
[31:04] it's no longer the totem that you
[31:06] fetishize but it's a system that you
[31:08] produced and that now now dominates you.
[31:11] Right? So the the totem was dominating
[31:13] these societies because
[31:16] the the totem was seen as an external
[31:19] force that that objectively and
[31:21] universally dominated. But now nothing
[31:23] has changed. This external force has
[31:26] become value production. That is that is
[31:30] by the way the product of our social
[31:32] relations but we stop seeing it as the
[31:35] product of our social relation and we
[31:37] fetishize it as some objective truth
[31:40] that then of course commands us and the
[31:43] categories we use like GDP production is
[31:46] a clear example. It's just like if you
[31:48] see economic history books they say well
[31:50] look the world was was crap until we
[31:53] started actually producing value and
[31:54] look now there's a straight line going
[31:56] up and this is I think really what we
[31:58] need to debunk because also you need to
[32:00] go look at how they even like measure
[32:02] poverty in itself like even if we do
[32:04] want to use money as the the metrics
[32:07] which I think is very problematic
[32:08] because you know many society live
[32:10] without monetary transaction because
[32:12] they are connected to what they need to
[32:14] reproduce themselves. Again, you see,
[32:16] you can't measure the well-being of this
[32:18] person if you're just focused on
[32:20] monetary measurement, right? So, that's
[32:22] how you can say you're uplifted. No,
[32:24] you're not uplifted. The World Bank
[32:26] itself like actually showed that poverty
[32:28] has increased in the last couple of
[32:29] years. They had to admit this. Um and I
[32:33] think the point is here is that we need
[32:34] to look at the overall uh living
[32:37] experiences of people that are like just
[32:40] constantly detached from their um from
[32:44] their livelihoods to um try to survive
[32:47] by being employed in huge corporations
[32:50] that come in and actually exploit their
[32:52] material conditions. But but isn't China
[32:55] a sort of indication of that success in
[32:58] many ways? So people would say that it's
[33:00] obviously accounted for a huge share of
[33:02] the global poverty reduction since the
[33:03] 1980s. That happened after China opened
[33:06] its e economy, expanded manufacturing
[33:08] and exports, integrated into global
[33:10] trade while still keeping of course a
[33:12] strong state control over key
[33:14] industries. So economists like Danny
[33:15] Rodrik argue that China succeeded
[33:17] through this hybrid model, not through
[33:19] kind of classical Mauism alone. Um
[33:24] it looks to many people like this is one
[33:26] of the biggest poverty reduction stories
[33:27] in in modern history which relied on
[33:30] markets industrialization and
[33:32] participation in capitalism. I think
[33:35] when people talk about poverty reduction
[33:39] um and again you point you point the
[33:41] finger exactly on the point like the
[33:42] reason why globally we can say that
[33:44] maybe poverty numbers have gone down not
[33:46] immediately but in the past is because
[33:48] of China's war on poverty. But I would
[33:51] really like to stress that that war on
[33:52] poverty is a form of post capitalism in
[33:56] the sense that what capitalism is about
[33:57] is about mediating all our needs through
[34:01] private investors profits. Okay. So
[34:03] anything we want from what we're wearing
[34:05] to the chairs
[34:07] happens because capitalists decide to
[34:10] invest because they see an expectation
[34:12] for profit. Okay. And so this is the
[34:14] whole point is that we're mediating our
[34:17] needs through private investors,
[34:19] profits, and market relations. That's
[34:23] not what China did with the eradication
[34:24] of poverty, right? There was a plan. The
[34:26] plan was not mediated. It was the idea
[34:29] is that we have an objective that is a
[34:31] political objective and this takes
[34:33] priority over any economic criteria.
[34:36] Right? So this is the opposite of what
[34:38] happens in the west because in the west
[34:39] what happens is that
[34:42] anything that is not compatible with the
[34:44] logic of profit is considered utopian
[34:47] right so you know yes it would be good
[34:49] to have better social housing but our
[34:51] debt doesn't allow us to do it or
[34:53] there's like some economic constraint
[34:56] but this is the whole point about
[34:57] planning that is has been done in this
[35:00] case for China is like the planning is
[35:02] actually the idea that you are putting
[35:04] political projects
[35:06] that are affirming themselves beyond the
[35:10] logic of profit and in priority to the
[35:12] logic of profit. And you know we there's
[35:14] a big discussion about is China
[35:16] capitalist is it not I would say China
[35:18] is not capitalist has not of course
[35:21] overcome uh wage labor which is a very
[35:24] important point to make a society fully
[35:26] democratic because I would I believe
[35:28] that in the future we should overcome
[35:30] wage labor which is really where the
[35:32] anti-democratic
[35:33] um pressures come in but in a way they
[35:37] are able to assert political priority
[35:40] over private investors in a way that um
[35:42] relies on planning and control which is
[35:45] something that we've never experienced
[35:48] in the west ever.
[35:49] But didn't they also put um kind of the
[35:52] plan above the value of human life?
[35:54] Right? There were millions of people who
[35:56] have been killed as part of the sort of
[35:58] plan or allowed to die whichever way you
[36:00] want to see it because certain political
[36:01] priorities were placed ahead of you know
[36:04] the daily realities of of farmers or
[36:06] people in in agricultural areas. Is that
[36:10] not also the case?
[36:11] Yeah. I'm not trying to idealize any
[36:13] reality. Absolutely. That is definitely
[36:16] the case. So without idealizing but at
[36:18] the same time also without demonizing
[36:20] because this is what happens. It's like
[36:21] oh look they killed all these peasants
[36:23] like yeah what what are you doing?
[36:24] You're like literally go to the US
[36:26] people are dying in the streets like in
[36:28] Tulsa Oklahoma where I live. People are
[36:30] literally dying in the street. And yeah
[36:31] like is that different? I don't think
[36:33] so. I do think that the eradication of
[36:36] poverty is a very good example of what
[36:38] like
[36:41] beating the logic that is constraining
[36:44] us uh with political priorities that it
[36:47] is a possibility and it is feasible.
[36:49] It's just like we need to get out of our
[36:51] western traps. So let me ask you about
[36:53] um this statement by uh former world
[36:55] bank economist Branco Milanovich. He
[36:57] argued in 2019 uh that capitalism has
[37:00] essentially become the dominant global
[37:02] system because it outperformed rival
[37:04] models uh in generating growth in
[37:06] raising living standards at scale. I'm
[37:07] sure you're very familiar with this
[37:09] argument since the 1980s. Even countries
[37:11] that were once associated with socialism
[37:14] or even communism from China to Vietnam
[37:16] to the kind of postsviet states like
[37:18] Russia, they've all embraced markets,
[37:22] private enterprise, global trade. So if
[37:25] capitalism is so obviously failing, why
[37:28] have so many countries including
[37:31] formerly socialist ones or communist
[37:33] ones, you know, move towards the
[37:35] capitalist model?
[37:36] Well, because um the this economic
[37:39] system is extremely good at asserting
[37:42] itself um in very violent ways. And so
[37:46] rather than having a explanation that is
[37:48] kind of internalistic
[37:51] and self um congratulatory
[37:54] um if you study the period of the cold
[37:55] war you realize that it was a war
[37:57] exactly because there was a constant
[38:00] need to repress alternatives and you
[38:03] know the alternatives were were
[38:04] sprouting um the so-called third world
[38:06] alternatives all the coups that the
[38:09] United States as the leading capitalist
[38:11] country um like supported actively in
[38:14] Latin America America and around the
[38:15] global south. This cannot be outside of
[38:18] this picture. It's a war of all against
[38:20] all and it's protected and maintained
[38:23] alive by government intervention that is
[38:26] very violent as we're seeing today. I
[38:28] mean, not by accident that the our bills
[38:31] are going up because there's like an
[38:33] imperialist war abroad that is expanding
[38:35] and killing thousands and thousands of
[38:38] people and starving
[38:41] hundreds of thousands. Um, it's awful.
[38:44] What I think is really important is
[38:46] really to find out that um, this system
[38:50] is very good at co-opting and at
[38:53] violently repressing alternatives. And
[38:56] this needs to be part of how we explain
[38:58] the history, our past. And right now you
[39:00] know you can say sure uh we've won so
[39:03] far but look around us like we are
[39:06] literally
[39:09] about to extinguish humanity because of
[39:12] how violent this economic system is. So
[39:15] it's no longer compatible. So I think a
[39:16] lot of this rhetoric also needs to be
[39:18] like okay but let's look at today like
[39:20] the world is on fire both because of the
[39:22] ecological catastrophe that the system
[39:24] produces and the escalating militarism
[39:26] that the system needs. militarism and
[39:28] capitalism are indistinguishable. You
[39:31] cannot have capitalism without austerity
[39:33] and militarism and we've seen it in the
[39:34] history of this of this system all the
[39:37] time. on the free uh podcast. Um I
[39:40] interviewed a wonderful Lebanese scholar
[39:42] who's also a dear friend and she works
[39:44] on ecologies of resistance um in South
[39:47] Lebanon and you know that is an area she
[39:49] told me like after 1945 it's not like
[39:51] the World War II stopped. It was just
[39:54] externalized
[39:56] in the global south. I mean if you live
[39:58] in Lebanon, especially South Lebanon,
[40:00] you've seen war all your life. Like for
[40:02] you that is the norm. It's just like and
[40:04] and that's how the value we produced is
[40:07] dumped so that we can produce more of
[40:09] it, right? Because otherwise you create
[40:10] overproduction problems and so you need
[40:12] to use the bombs once you produce them
[40:15] and there's always a space to use those
[40:16] bombs. So I really want to talk about
[40:19] the connection between imperialism,
[40:21] capitalism, uh wars, uh in just a sec.
[40:25] But before I do, let me ask you about
[40:27] the countries that are often cited as
[40:28] sort of the the good examples of kind of
[40:30] ethical capitalism. So countries like
[40:33] Denmark, Sweden, Norway, you know, even
[40:35] postwar Germany, I guess, uh, capitalist
[40:37] economies, but they produce far lower
[40:40] inequality, stronger labor protections,
[40:42] higher social mobility, broader
[40:43] prosperity, I guess, in places like the
[40:45] US. Norway, for example, is one of the
[40:47] richest countries in the world, and it
[40:48] consistently ranks among the lowest in
[40:51] inequality, and around 82% of people own
[40:53] their own homes or are part of
[40:55] cooperatives. Um, isn't this evidence
[40:58] that capitalism can produce socially
[41:01] healthy societies with low inequality?
[41:06] So, it's funny because again, thank you
[41:08] so much because these are all like the
[41:10] the the key points that keep us kind of
[41:12] like, okay, stuff are bad, but we're
[41:15] still the best around. And
[41:17] that's exactly why we wanted to ask you
[41:19] because I think that a lot of this
[41:20] conversation gets stopped at these
[41:22] hurdles every single time. And every
[41:24] single one of them is based on such a
[41:28] bad and superficial like historical
[41:32] research. I was inviting in Sweden. The
[41:34] first translation of my of the book the
[41:36] capital order was in Swedish. And guess
[41:38] why? Because if you go to their country,
[41:41] they tell you, well, we are experiencing
[41:43] hardcore austerity. They are
[41:45] privatizing. The state is subsidizing.
[41:48] Even in Sweden, the big thing is that
[41:50] the state heavily subsidizes private
[41:52] schools.
[41:53] um like in the US and is constantly
[41:55] cutting public schools. What austerity
[41:57] is like you shift resources from the
[41:59] many to the few and again this works for
[42:01] the logic of profit that is based on
[42:03] these two pillars wage labor and private
[42:05] command over investment. So what's
[42:07] happening in Sweden is absolutely the
[42:10] same as is happening here just with like
[42:12] Swedish qualifications but they are exa
[42:15] the reason why the far right is rising
[42:17] also there is that people have been
[42:19] impoverished um largely by cuts in
[42:22] social expenditures interest rates
[42:24] heights uh privatization so
[42:27] unfortunately that's that narrative is
[42:29] false I'm writing a book exactly to
[42:31] debunk the golden age myth because
[42:33] that's part of the myth is like oh
[42:35] there's the Scandinavian countries that
[42:36] somehow are humane capitalism and you go
[42:38] there and you ask people living there
[42:39] like no we have been under attack with
[42:42] austerity for the majority of the time
[42:45] we remember and it's getting worse and
[42:46] worse there too. So same stuff and
[42:48] they're by the way also rearming so the
[42:51] same stuff like you know um it's exactly
[42:54] the same template. So let's talk about
[42:56] austerity a little bit because we are
[42:58] basically headed into an economic
[43:00] recession. And we keep being told uh
[43:02] prepare for you know brace brace for
[43:04] impact. Basically food prices we're
[43:06] being told are going to surge by like
[43:08] 50% in the next like year or so here in
[43:11] the UK. We've just lived through massive
[43:12] inflation. Um postcoid we were told we
[43:16] had borrowed too much and we have to now
[43:18] impose austerity to balance the book. So
[43:21] the story as I understand it as a mere
[43:23] citizen of this country is that when we
[43:26] borrow too too much um let's say to pay
[43:30] people uh when they have to stay at home
[43:32] or for whatever other reason we then um
[43:36] have to uh tighten our belts is how
[43:39] we're told it is right and so we have to
[43:42] uh restrict uh expenditure because
[43:45] otherwise we're going to end up in more
[43:46] debt and if we end up in more debt then
[43:49] we end up just servicing our debt and
[43:51] when we just service our debt, our
[43:53] currency becomes devalued and that is
[43:56] bad for our standing and for the value
[43:59] of the pound and it impacts everyone
[44:01] negatively. So that's what we're told
[44:04] and I think most people semi accept as
[44:08] the why of austerity. But you say that
[44:11] austerity isn't about economics that
[44:14] it's just about politics. So, how would
[44:18] you respond to people who say, "Well, if
[44:20] we don't quote unquote tighten our belt,
[44:23] we are going to weaken our currency and
[44:27] devalue and see, you know, huge
[44:29] inflation." And that's not good for
[44:31] people either.
[44:32] I would tell these people that they are
[44:34] right. The only problem is that they
[44:37] don't need to fall in the idea that this
[44:39] is the only possible solution. A lot of
[44:43] progressive economists I think fool us
[44:46] in giving us a sense that under
[44:48] capitalism anything goes that you can
[44:50] have you know a huge welfare state that
[44:52] you can have very happy workers and
[44:55] still be under capitalism. I think this
[44:58] is a profound lie because what you see
[45:00] if you study history is that there are
[45:02] very big political limits to how much
[45:05] social redistribution is possible under
[45:07] capitalism. And this is very clear um
[45:10] because if people had enough to live
[45:13] live decently without going to work for
[45:15] a crappy job, they wouldn't accept
[45:18] exploitation and we would be thinking
[45:20] about other ways to organize work and
[45:23] and our the production of our goods. So
[45:27] this is very clear when you talk about
[45:28] unemployment is that this system is not
[45:31] compatible with full employment. And
[45:33] this is something that you don't need a
[45:35] Marxan economist to tell you. um it's
[45:37] enough to look at the macro models of
[45:40] mainstream economists. They know that if
[45:42] unemployment is too low and this is the
[45:44] models that all central banks use. When
[45:47] unemployment is too low, the political
[45:50] conditions for capitalism fall. Why?
[45:53] Because the bargain power workers goes
[45:55] up because there's no one taking their
[45:58] place behind them if they decide to
[46:00] quit. And this produces a subversion of
[46:04] the class oppression that is at the
[46:07] foundation of this economy. So this is
[46:09] really important is that everyone knows
[46:11] that you need a good degree of
[46:14] unemployment to make the economy stable.
[46:18] So unemployment is the product of this
[46:21] economy, but it's also the solution
[46:22] because if there weren't unemployment,
[46:24] people would not be accepting the social
[46:27] foundations of this economy. So going
[46:28] back to your point, you see that under
[46:31] capitalism there are serious political
[46:33] constraints and the constraint is you
[46:35] need to keep workers on edge so that
[46:38] they're willing to work. And so this
[46:40] means that dismantling social resources
[46:44] serves exactly that purpose. So when
[46:48] people say you know we need to protect
[46:50] our currency, yes the way under
[46:53] capitalism you protect the currency is
[46:55] to have worker sacrifice. This is again
[46:58] it's a truth that if you uh don't um
[47:02] keep
[47:03] workers weak, you might have a very big
[47:07] problem in having low prices to export,
[47:11] right? Because the whole point here is
[47:12] that you need to keep low prices in
[47:14] order to win real competition and low
[47:17] prices come by lowering the cost of
[47:20] production, right? And and either you
[47:22] increase productivity or you repress
[47:24] wages. you need to do it one or the
[47:26] other ways. And the way that you're
[47:28] going to be able to get people to accept
[47:30] this is if you like keep them on edge
[47:32] knowing that they're substitutable. So
[47:34] what I want to stress here is that
[47:36] austerity is not a political choice.
[47:39] It's a political requirement under
[47:42] capitalism if you want to support
[47:44] capitalism. The point here is that we
[47:46] don't need to accept capitalism as the
[47:49] only solution. So I would tell this
[47:51] person, yes, you're right. We shouldn't
[47:53] fool ourselves if we are under
[47:55] capitalism. There are certain economic
[47:57] constraints and is the case that you
[47:58] know if governments decide to tax wealth
[48:02] um they will incur in serious capital
[48:06] strikes you know strikes it's not just
[48:08] workers who strike the worst for
[48:10] capitalism is when capital strikes
[48:12] meaning that you know it leaves the
[48:13] country it like investors stop investing
[48:17] Google heads to Dublin.
[48:18] Exactly. So if investors stop investing,
[48:22] capitalism is screwed because we depend
[48:24] on private investment and we do depend
[48:26] on private capital. So this will be the
[48:29] consequence of of better conditions for
[48:33] workers of wealth taxes. But the point
[48:36] here is not to say oh then we don't do
[48:37] it because we need to maintain status
[48:39] quo. The point is we do it and then we
[48:41] face the consequences and understand how
[48:44] we can can get out of of this trap and
[48:47] build a better system.
[48:49] So, um, I really want to talk about the
[48:51] escaping the system part in just a
[48:53] second, but before we do, let's really
[48:55] talk about the ways in which we're now
[48:57] seeing the kind of global crisis of
[48:59] capitalism we've discussed kind of
[49:02] happening concurrently to a global rise
[49:04] in fascism, right? So, um the the the
[49:07] far-right in power in Israel that's been
[49:08] uh you know behind the genocide across
[49:10] Europe in your home country Italy uh my
[49:14] uh country of origin France where you
[49:16] know I mean it looks like that's where
[49:17] we're headed as well the reform
[49:19] elections here in this country. So, so
[49:22] is it a coincidence that the crisis of
[49:24] global capitalism is occurring alongside
[49:28] the rise of the far right? And what
[49:30] lessons can we learn from the
[49:33] Palestinian case that teach us about
[49:36] maybe where we're all headed? Just a
[49:38] quick reminder, if you haven't already,
[49:40] please do join us over at the T network.
[49:43] The kind of conversations we have on
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[50:30] I would definitely say that the rise of
[50:32] the far right is exactly the product of
[50:35] the success of austerity. And in this
[50:37] sense again when keep in mind that
[50:39] austerity does not balance the budget
[50:41] but does in fact maintain the class
[50:44] balance that is necessary for the
[50:46] system. So what we see today is just an
[50:48] acceleration of austerity working as it
[50:51] should to weaken us to convince us
[50:53] there's no alternatives because
[50:54] austerity is both policies what I call
[50:57] the trinity of fiscal monetary
[50:58] industrial austerity but also the all
[51:00] the ideas that justify it right and that
[51:04] make us think that the problems of of
[51:08] course are the poor are the migrants are
[51:10] they it individualizes us again you they
[51:14] it points the finger in the wrong
[51:15] direction. So what we see today is the
[51:17] fact that with these ideas circulating
[51:20] and the hardship that everyone is
[51:21] feeling because of how austerity
[51:22] operated. Of course um the consensus
[51:25] goes towards a supposed false
[51:27] alternative. It needs to be kept in mind
[51:29] that Israel itself is one of the most
[51:31] unequal countries in the world and there
[51:33] is a lot of suffering uh within the
[51:36] workers um in Israel too. And the best
[51:40] thing is to divert that anger that
[51:42] should be directed towards the system
[51:44] and towards the the the actual
[51:46] capitalist economy that is working as it
[51:49] should to exploit you and make you even
[51:51] more miserable. Instead of diverting
[51:53] that anger towards where it should,
[51:54] which is the systemic, okay, let's get
[51:56] out of this, you divert it towards those
[51:58] that you then kill like flies. And what
[52:02] um Farage is saying here in this country
[52:04] is terrifying. But people want to hear
[52:06] these terrifying like he's literally
[52:09] saying that uh it's absolutely flying to
[52:12] basically get rid of these migrants
[52:14] physically. What we're doing by the way
[52:15] because in the last 10 10 years over
[52:17] 32,000 people died in the Mediterranean
[52:20] seas and not counting all the people
[52:22] that are dying even in the desert to
[52:24] arrive to Libya where they're tortured.
[52:27] And this is all financed by our money
[52:30] like our tax money is actually going to
[52:32] finance the torture camps. um in Libya
[52:36] to not uh get uh to to protect us from
[52:39] from the migrants. So yeah, I'm
[52:42] Palestine is like a microcosm, a lens um
[52:46] that tells us how far the destruction
[52:48] also in our own countries can go when
[52:51] austerity in fact dominates as the
[52:53] solution for capitalism and we end up
[52:57] destroying everyone around us and
[52:58] ourselves. Um and and in your book you
[53:01] talk about the ways in which austerity
[53:03] was basically applied by the Israelis to
[53:05] the Palestinians economy. Right. So they
[53:08] uh essentially uh after Oslo there were
[53:11] some kind of promises of a kind of
[53:13] semi-independent economic uh situation
[53:15] within the Palestinian territories that
[53:17] were going to be um led by the
[53:19] Palestinian Authority. But essentially
[53:21] what ended up happening was that that
[53:23] economy ended up being subverted in
[53:25] service to the Israeli economy. Um, and
[53:28] so there's a sort of almost like system
[53:31] of I mean wage slavery that occurs. I
[53:34] mean, can you tell us a little bit about
[53:35] how that works and to what extent is
[53:37] that a sort of extreme version of what
[53:40] we're also experiencing? This is exactly
[53:43] the point is to deexceptionalize
[53:45] um Palestine um again Palestine
[53:48] quotequote the Palestinian territories
[53:51] by looking at the economic dimension and
[53:53] again I don't want to reduce it all to
[53:55] an economic dimension because we know
[53:56] it's highly complex but it is very
[53:58] important to note that all of the all of
[54:01] the conflicts that our mainstream media
[54:02] focuses on that are usually like
[54:04] cultural or religious actually have a
[54:07] very deep root in economic violence. And
[54:10] this is very clear, you know, the
[54:11] Ottoman Empire um that fell after the
[54:13] first world war and then we had the the
[54:16] mandate the the colonization of Britain
[54:19] in the region, right? Britain came and
[54:22] uh with the the French basically they
[54:24] divided the area very um artificially
[54:28] like literally drawing borders that were
[54:30] never there. Part of what they did was
[54:33] accelerate uh privatization and the
[54:36] expulsion of people from their land. So,
[54:39] in a space that was actually really
[54:41] syncretatistic in terms of all religions
[54:43] getting together, you know, and when
[54:45] when you tell uh my our Lebanese and
[54:48] Palestinian friends about anti-semitism,
[54:50] they look at you like you're crazy
[54:51] because they're all semitic. Like
[54:53] they're literally all semitic.
[54:54] Anti-semitism is just like a
[54:56] construction of the West. And then we
[54:58] impose on those cultures that were all
[55:00] together syncratically. And this
[55:02] togetherness was also like a very a very
[55:04] different economy that was connected
[55:06] with the land organically uh
[55:08] ecologically and was very
[55:10] self-sufficient. The majority of
[55:12] Palestinian population was actually um
[55:16] living off of their own means of
[55:18] production. And this is the what happens
[55:21] after 1917 is that there is an
[55:24] acceleration of the proletaranization
[55:26] process in which um you enforce market
[55:30] dependence. to do it through state and
[55:32] imperial institutions that come in,
[55:34] disrupt um the um indigenous uh values
[55:39] and economic practices and impose the
[55:42] capitalist logic. And unfortunately,
[55:44] Palestine saw that like really really
[55:46] deeply. of course connected with the
[55:48] Zionist movement in which you started
[55:50] privileging um Jewish corporations that
[55:53] then took over um land, resources, water
[55:57] uh so not even in Gaza and everything
[56:00] they need is owned by Israeli
[56:02] corporations and so they have literally
[56:05] nothing and even when they do want to go
[56:07] work for for an Israeli company um they
[56:11] are rendered superfluous not only the
[56:13] checkpoints and like the disasters to
[56:15] even like get to their jobs, but it's
[56:17] also that they are constantly being
[56:19] substituted. So now we're at that point
[56:20] in which, you know, Palestinian labor is
[56:23] ultimately superfluous labor because
[56:24] there was policies to get other migrant
[56:27] labor coming in from the region. So then
[56:29] then you can exterminate Palestinians
[56:31] without even suffering too much
[56:32] economically because you have another
[56:34] pool of what Markx called the the the
[56:37] the latent reserve army ready to get
[56:39] hired and again pitting the poor against
[56:43] the poor. So what we see there and of
[56:46] course all the fiscal austerity, the way
[56:48] the taxes were actually used to take
[56:50] away resources, you know, and this is so
[56:53] obviously political. Um the the Israel
[56:56] basically controls all the commercial
[56:59] taxes that should go to the Palestinian
[57:01] government, quote unquote, and and
[57:04] doesn't give it back. Uh and so this
[57:06] means that the the the the public uh
[57:09] workers like school teachers even like
[57:12] taking away the genocide like even like
[57:14] the proper in peace time even the proper
[57:17] functioning of you know the education
[57:19] system the hospitals these public
[57:22] employees don't get money because
[57:23] they're the money is being captured by
[57:26] the Israeli authorities. So the story is
[57:28] much deeper and of course it goes well
[57:30] back further back than October 23rd 2023
[57:34] which seems like the starting point of
[57:36] any of any like contemporary analysis.
[57:39] No, let's bring it back to the 100 years
[57:42] ago and the imperialist intervention to
[57:45] create what is the norm under this
[57:48] global economy.
[57:49] So let me now talk a little bit about
[57:51] the resistance to this system uh which
[57:53] of course is what the whole book is
[57:54] about this escape from capitalism. Um,
[57:57] one of the key questions I have is
[57:59] around this idea which is obviously
[58:01] central to Marxist analysis about worker
[58:03] power, right? And you know, the idea
[58:05] that if we unionize and if workers get
[58:07] together that they can push back
[58:08] against, you know, the greedy corpse,
[58:10] um, as it were, but we're also hearing
[58:13] that a huge proportion of the workforce
[58:16] is now going to be replaced by AI. So if
[58:19] this future does emerge where many of uh
[58:22] the workforce are replaced and then put
[58:24] on things like you know universal basic
[58:26] income, UBI um where does the power of
[58:29] the workforce come from? This is an
[58:32] acceleration of these processes.
[58:34] Unemployment is endogenous. It comes
[58:37] from within this system. It's not the
[58:39] system not working. This isn't producing
[58:41] that unemployment that comes from the
[58:43] technological innovation that we seem to
[58:46] think it's a good word. But technology
[58:48] is not being deployed to make our life
[58:51] more comfortable. Right? So we see the
[58:53] results, but of course could also be a
[58:54] more comfortable life. Fridges,
[58:56] televisions, I'm not denying. But the
[58:58] point is that that result is the product
[59:03] of
[59:04] this war of competition that requires
[59:07] technological innovation to beat the
[59:10] competitors and this is very clear with
[59:12] uh of course with AI is that you know
[59:14] this is the frontier of real competition
[59:17] and given that there is no plan and it's
[59:19] complete anarchy in which um all the
[59:22] businesses that can be in this field are
[59:24] competing with one another um we have no
[59:27] control like It's complete loss of
[59:28] control. There's no political control um
[59:31] over these processes. What we can
[59:33] predict is that it's going to have an
[59:36] insane impact on increasing
[59:38] unemployment. And then at that point,
[59:40] the question is what happens? Um because
[59:45] you know the technocratic story that the
[59:47] machines will work for us and we will do
[59:49] well
[59:51] is great but not under capitalism. I
[59:53] mean it can be a scenario but it would
[59:55] not be under capitalism. namely because
[59:57] capitalism is based on unpaid labor of
[01:00:00] people that because that's the source of
[01:00:02] profit. So then we would really be in a
[01:00:04] post capitalist scenario. Now is this
[01:00:07] going to be democratic or authoritarian?
[01:00:09] Is something that um we need to actively
[01:00:12] work to see where it can go.
[01:00:15] Final question to you about this escape
[01:00:16] from capitalism. So we're obviously
[01:00:18] speaking 15 years on from the Occupy
[01:00:20] Wall Street which sparked huge public
[01:00:22] anger uh and energy but ultimately many
[01:00:26] people would say didn't really translate
[01:00:28] to much. Um
[01:00:31] where is the hope for this escape going
[01:00:36] to come from? And how do you even begin
[01:00:39] to imagine that future when so many
[01:00:43] people have a stake in the existing
[01:00:45] system? I'm convinced that we just need
[01:00:48] new categories. We can't go back to this
[01:00:51] idea of like betting it all on the
[01:00:52] unions. By the way, unions, you know,
[01:00:55] did their struggles but were part and
[01:00:57] parcel of the system by which like their
[01:00:59] main focus was just economic increasing
[01:01:01] wages like just like doing good for like
[01:01:03] one very specific categories of workers
[01:01:05] that were always elite with respect to
[01:01:07] other workers that were of course right
[01:01:09] now the gig economy and the
[01:01:10] precarization is worth but there were
[01:01:12] always you know weaker workers right
[01:01:14] from the global south women um just just
[01:01:17] unskilled labor that was not unionized.
[01:01:20] So unions in a way do produce the
[01:01:22] segmentation and hierarchies amongst
[01:01:23] workers that I don't think is an ideal
[01:01:25] world right the ideal world is to try to
[01:01:28] really call out for economic democracy
[01:01:30] and this is really important I think all
[01:01:32] the worlds words like communism
[01:01:34] socialism these words I don't think
[01:01:36] they're useful at all in this historical
[01:01:38] moment they're attached to baggages to
[01:01:40] misconceptions to you know realities of
[01:01:43] oppression we need to leave that behind
[01:01:46] and use words that can attract and bring
[01:01:49] people together instead of dividing
[01:01:51] people and that's why the forum for real
[01:01:53] economic emancipation that we founded in
[01:01:55] Tulsa is called free because we need to
[01:01:57] say well freedom is only compatible with
[01:02:00] a postc capitalist society that we need
[01:02:02] to actively build so I do not have a
[01:02:04] template for this and no one should
[01:02:06] because that's a very abstract mindset
[01:02:08] that is part of our or what I hope is
[01:02:12] the old world right the technocrats that
[01:02:13] had like this very abstract recipe that
[01:02:16] they try to impose that doesn't lead
[01:02:17] anywhere democracy is about building
[01:02:20] alternatives together with the free we
[01:02:23] have a public education platform that is
[01:02:25] super important because I think the
[01:02:27] first thing is also what you do here is
[01:02:29] emancipatory knowledge so the first way
[01:02:31] is to get people to think outside the
[01:02:33] box and this knowledge shouldn't just be
[01:02:35] left to those those privileges that can
[01:02:37] study it needs to be diffused we need to
[01:02:39] re-educate ourselves of being collective
[01:02:41] political animals it's only like proving
[01:02:44] that collectively we can make cho
[01:02:46] decisions that are effective that we and
[01:02:48] say, "Well, we can do better than what
[01:02:50] we have now." So, in my mind, the free
[01:02:53] is one experiment out of many. They
[01:02:55] exist. They're never publicized. There's
[01:02:57] a lot of experiments out there of
[01:02:59] postcapist alternatives that are
[01:03:00] actually ecological and democratic. And
[01:03:02] it's about building them where you are.
[01:03:04] And you know, with the free, we can
[01:03:06] offer this global template that we're
[01:03:08] trying. We have a couple assemblies that
[01:03:10] are now sprouting. But these assemblies
[01:03:12] are really the beginning of this dual
[01:03:14] power structure. Like the way to
[01:03:17] confront the system is a to put pressure
[01:03:21] on our institutions and our
[01:03:23] representatives and you can put pressure
[01:03:25] only if you're organized. For example,
[01:03:27] in Tulsa, we did launch a campaign on
[01:03:29] participatory budgeting. That is a very
[01:03:31] good recipe anti-usterity to say
[01:03:32] actually we want to our taxes. We decide
[01:03:35] where that money goes and it's not going
[01:03:37] to go like to funding the corporations
[01:03:39] and the genocide. It goes to our
[01:03:40] services.
[01:03:42] the mayor in Tulsa now is has been
[01:03:44] receptive incredibly and is like seeming
[01:03:47] to be interested in in in doing these
[01:03:50] projects. So one thing is to pressure
[01:03:53] the current institutions and that is
[01:03:55] very important. You can only do that if
[01:03:56] you're organized and connected with your
[01:03:59] citizens and your inhabitants around
[01:04:01] you. And the other is also to try to use
[01:04:04] these assemblies as a space to build
[01:04:06] alternative to market dependence. Like
[01:04:09] how do we breach market dependent? we
[01:04:10] take on, you know, production of our
[01:04:12] basic needs. Uh, in in Tulsa, like the,
[01:04:15] you know, one out of four children is
[01:04:17] hungry in Oklahoma. And by the way, I
[01:04:19] think the statistics in the UK are not
[01:04:21] that much better.
[01:04:23] They live in poverty. Exactly. So there
[01:04:25] many kids are hungry here too. So taking
[01:04:27] back also food production is already
[01:04:30] very revolutionary like how can we
[01:04:32] actually feed and house people and I
[01:04:35] think this is something that the
[01:04:36] community can do and is it can build and
[01:04:39] then show hey we don't need you we can
[01:04:41] do it ourselves so it's a I think dual
[01:04:44] strategy knowledge goes with creating
[01:04:46] alternative solidarity economies and of
[01:04:48] course pressuring the current
[01:04:51] institutions to do more because if you
[01:04:53] go for an anti- austerity platform and
[01:04:56] if it it's being implemented. This will
[01:04:58] necessarily mean breaking from the
[01:04:59] system. Austerity does produce economic
[01:05:02] disequilibrium but it produces social um
[01:05:06] possibility of like breaking away from
[01:05:08] the logic of profit. So there's a
[01:05:10] variety of strategies that I think we
[01:05:11] need to put in place. We need to learn
[01:05:13] from f past experiences but use words
[01:05:17] that resonate with people and that is
[01:05:18] really important because enough the left
[01:05:21] is super guilty of being stuck in these
[01:05:23] like elitist oh like elitist clicks no
[01:05:26] one cares like people want to hear
[01:05:28] actual emancipatory language and
[01:05:30] practice. So if you're interested in
[01:05:32] joining the free um we have um a website
[01:05:35] we have assemblies growing around the
[01:05:37] world and I hope we can all work for a
[01:05:39] better future um also with you. Thank
[01:05:42] you so much for joining us today.
[01:05:44] Thank you for having me.
[01:05:46] Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope
[01:05:47] you enjoyed today's episode. If you like
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