# Dilhan Pillay Sandrasegara - CEO of Temasek | Podcast | In Good Company

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsi84KyiP6Y

[00:01] Hi everybody.
[00:03] I'm Nicolola Tangan, the CEO of the Norwegian So Wealth Fund and today I'm really delighted because I am here in Singapore with Dylan Ple, the CEO of Teasec and Tease is Singapore's so wealth fund managing roughly 300 billion US.
[00:19] Now Dylan, he has been in charge of Teisec since 2021 and uh after a remarkable journey building up to the leading law firm in the country and so big thank you for taking the time.
[00:29] Thank you Nikolai.
[00:31] Lots of things to talk about but let's just kick off first.
[00:34] I wish I' given you better weather.
[00:36] I think it's pretty good.
[00:38] Um what is TESOS?
[00:39] Well I think that people define us in two different ways.
[00:45] Um I think most people would see us as a sovereign wealth fund if you're based outside of um of Singapore because we're owned by the government but we're really an investment holding company.
[00:52] We own uh three different portfolios.
[00:54] You know we have operating companies which together have something like about 150 billion US
[01:01] in revenues.
[01:03] We have a global portfolio of investments around the world mostly minority investments.
[01:08] And we also have a business uh that builds asset management platforms and also invest in private equity funds and alternative investment managers.
[01:14] What's the main difference between you and GIC which is the other
[01:18] so GIC manages the government's reserves uh and so it is really a fund manager uh no different from NBIM I would say and so they're also multi-asset uh multi strategy
[01:29] for Tamasic we have been set up from day one as an equities owner you know so whether is in relation to the companies that we control or whether it's in relation to our global investment portfolio we're primarily equities we have a very small credit portfolio something like about uh two odd percent of our portfolio value but the rest of it equities
[01:48] and so if you look at from that perspective the big difference is GIC manages money and we own our assets and so therefore for us it's very important that we uh recycle our capital because that's how we get capital to invest and
[02:01] so we have to make the trade-offs between sometimes owning it for longer or secondly trying to recycle some of the capital into better opportunities for for long-term.
[02:09] and if you look at if you look at the two of you combined how important are you for Singapore?
[02:14] So, MESGIC and Tamasic are part of what we call the net investment returns contribution framework which the government put in place um some years ago in order for the government to have a view of the expected returns of all three financial agencies.
[02:29] and that will help the government plan its own budgetary requirements especially in terms of the operating budget the government.
[02:33] So, in a sense, we are quite we're very important from the perspective of having to deliver those long-term returns for the government to be able to have that that funding available for its own programs and quite a bit of it goes towards funding the social programs of Singapore.
[02:49] Do they leave you alone or they interfere in your business?
[02:50] So from a tamastic perspective they have from the first from get-go from the day that we were set up left us alone because the government set us up because they wanted to make sure that the policy frameworks
[03:02] governing companies that they had set up a decade earlier um would be seen from a regulatory perspective and they would leave Tamasic to oversee the the commercial operations of those businesses and that has been the case from the from the very beginning.
[03:16] We do not have a government nominee on our board.
[03:18] Our chairman was a former government minister but he operates independently of the government and so that is a bit unique I would say uh in terms of what people will classify as a sovereign wealth fund.
[03:29] Now in countries like Norway the the government owns uh stakes in the businesses individually whilst here you put it into a holding company.
[03:36] What are the what are the kind of pros and cons of operating like this?
[03:39] Well, I think that if you if you own them separately, uh I think you have to figure out whether you get the benefit of synergies between those companies, whether the insights you get from one, you can, you know, put it uh across to the others as well.
[03:54] Take sustainability for example.
[03:56] Um because we have it under one umbrella, we have something called the Tamasi portfolio company sustainability
[04:02] council. We are a member of it as well
[04:04] and we bring in the CTOs and CEOs of all our companies together with ourselves so that we can exchange ideas, get insights and so on.
[04:10] You think about adaptation, resilience, some of our companies are far more ahead of the curve than even we are.
[04:15] And so the learnings that we can have from that is actually quite critical for us and having all the companies under one umbrella allows us to convene uh these companies and and share their their insights with each other.
[04:27] It's a bit like uh the function of the Wenbergs in Sweden.
[04:29] I guess it is that way.
[04:30] Now we don't set up these companies under an umbrella for us to be able to do things together.
[04:35] If there are opportunity to do things together, it must come bottoms up.
[04:41] A willingness by by them to collaborate together or if we have a point of view, then we will, you know, sort of put it across to them.
[04:48] But really the the getting together of our companies is really up to those boards because ultimately we hold them accountable for their performance.
[04:57] What would you say is the um investment philosophy of Teas?
[04:58] How do you how do you think what's your time frame and how
[05:02] do you think?
[05:03] So the idea for us to do is to deliver sustainable good sustainable returns over the long term.
[05:09] So the first thing is the long-term orientation of our portfolio and by the way it's a necessity given that we own these operating businesses um and many of which we would continue to hold for a long time you know so in that respect you have to think about things like climate change and AI because these are going to be drivers of value or they're going to help displace you in some uh form or another.
[05:32] Um so for us it's about delivering financial returns but being able to deliver other other outcomes associated with the kind of companies that we own and and operate.
[05:41] Uh from the perspective of global portfolio there I would say two things that we look for.
[05:44] Number one is clearly financial returns.
[05:46] That's the first and foremost um uh requirement.
[05:48] The second insights that we get that we could then use across the portfolio in order to enhance value you know and that would include um not just the Singapore based companies but other companies we invest around the world.
[06:01] So this network effect is quite important
[06:04] for us.
[06:06] So we say that we have to be a worked organization going into this decade and beyond.
[06:10] And when we look at a worked organization we have an internal focus on that between our uh between ourselves and our offices around the world.
[06:18] But we also want to make sure our portfolio companies are areworked where it makes sense as well.
[06:22] How do you make investment decisions?
[06:26] What does the structure look like?
[06:27] Well, much of it is devolved to the management team of Tamasic.
[06:29] Um, and we uh we have a certain threshold value where anything up to that level is determined only by the management team through our investment committee.
[06:40] uh which actually is technically a committee of the of the holding company but devolved to um to to management to make decisions and beyond that level it goes to executive committee of the board of which I'm a member and then beyond that if it's very large it goes to the board now that's for investments
[06:56] and so how how big does it need for it to be before you you get involved?
[07:00] it has to be over a billion dollars uh US for it to go beyond the management
[07:04] right yeah and and per per transaction and that includes if you structure in a where the amounts may be invested over over a period of time.
[07:12] Um but I would say that um the most important thing is uh that institutional issues where it it concerns a shift of the organization or shift in strategy that has to go to the board.
[07:29] because the board ultimately is responsible to the shareholder for how we operate.
[07:32] So for instance you have the geographical split of your assets and and I think it's quite uh quite cool you have it down in the reception area.
[07:39] So it's well actually it's it's out on the street.
[07:40] So when you we're very transparent approach your building you can see where you have the money.
[07:44] How how is that decision made?
[07:47] Uh that's made by management and proposed to the board for the board to understand where we are headed towards in terms of portfolio construction.
[07:54] and that goes towards the capital allocation that we put in place yearbyear.
[07:59] That capital allocation is also shared with the board for them to endorse.
[08:02] So tell me about the split now the current split just how um what does that reflect
[08:07] in terms of your I guess geopolitical thinking.
[08:11] So much of how we have uh constructed portfolio over the last 20 odd years since we started to become a global investor has really been determined by the external environment.
[08:20] So if you look at the at the 2000s really it's about the opening up of Asia following WTO the extension of India and China in particular and and the ability of these two economies of becoming not just plugged into a into a global economy but becoming leading economies for the world which has largely happened India a little bit later than China obviously.
[08:41] and so um and so you know when we looked at we realized that you know we couldn't be Singaporeentric we had to step out and therefore going out to Asia first made sense since Asia is our sort of backyard if I can call it that.
[08:54] But in the 2010s following the GFC, we recognized that you need to have a balanced portfolio and you couldn't just have an emerging market focus which was really where we were for the previous decade outside of Singapore.
[09:05] And so that's when we start to invest significantly US and Europe.
[09:06] So our
[09:08] exposure to US and Europe in 2011 before we embarked on 2020 uh road map was about 11% in aggregate.
[09:17] By the end of decade was 33%.
[09:19] M so three times and the portfolio doubled in value so that's a significant uplift that meant that capital
[09:24] what drove that what was the thinking behind that
[09:25] well because for the one thing that the GFC taught us is that actually you have to look at first of all macro factors and look at strength of economies as you think about your thematic investing you got to go where there is capital the capital flows but also where you see the best of innovation and quite apart from what we saw in China uh we thought that the US would be clearly uh the leader in innovation
[09:49] uh for Europe, we always felt that they had globally competitive companies that were extremely good despite whatever people may think about the macro or Europe.
[09:56] We still have that view that you can, you know, we're not a macro investor.
[09:59] So we're not saying avoid Europe because of the macro,
[10:03] but we are invested in companies.
[10:05] So what was driven by was this whole issue of globalization and which are the
[10:09] likely winners depending on the sectors that we were in.
[10:13] Now in the last decade when we started to really push out in actual fact we were driven by themes you know we were looking at things like urbanization rising middle- inome populations you know the comparative advantages of companies which will be like linked to IP for example for example biotech and then looking at domestic champions who will go beyond uh their their geographies uh into the world uh later on we looked at trends and trends are things like you know four broad trends we have are digitalization future consumption longer lifespan, sustainable living which embodies within it obviously things like sustainability.
[10:47] Um and so as we looked into that you know you could find you could actually determine which geographies are more likely give you those opportunities and so allocation of capital went to some extent according to trends uh geographies according to where we thought there would be flows and where we could get the alpha and then finally uh into sectors and so yeah you sourced some of the uh increased allocation here by reducing your exposure to China.
[11:10] Actually I would not say that we reduce exposure.
[11:12] Exposure kept on going up but we could monetize on China because China is giving us true alpha and take that capital invest in US and Europe.
[11:21] Do you think do do uh do you think you can predict the future?
[11:25] No.
[11:25] And the reason why I'm saying that last weekend I sat together with uh seven of the cleverest people I know and we did the same a year ago and we tape record.
[11:35] Yeah.
[11:36] uh what we thought was going to happen over the next 12 months.
[11:39] And we talked about financial markets, geopolitics, you know, just all the variables and we didn't predict any of the things.
[11:43] I think we were like 80% wrong.
[11:46] I think we've taken a view we can never predict.
[11:47] It's incredible.
[11:48] Now um you can't predict how do you operate in that world then that's the that's the tricky thing right for all of us.
[11:53] You know I I think the first thing you have to do is to make sure that you engage engage broadly globally.
[11:59] You can't sit in Singapore and feel that you will only get information by reading things doing Zoom calls or team calls and things like that.
[12:05] You have to go out there and meet people, meet them regularly, exchange views.
[12:08] They see
[12:10] things from a different angle, different perspective from where they are seated
[12:13] and you see things from different angle
[12:15] and um and I think that helps the the learnings for all of us.
[12:19] And I think that's the first thing.
[12:21] The second thing you have to cleareyed about what are your objectives at the end of the day
[12:25] you know u financial returns and other outcomes you need to do and you have to then be disciplined about how you allocate your capital for those outcomes
[12:31] but also how you build muscle in organization for that.
[12:34] So one of the things that we have learned over the last um I would say um 15 years is that investment capabilities by themselves will not be enough for you to get um around the the shifts that you see out there.
[12:48] So we've been building our geopolitical capabilities since 2017.
[12:52] You know we set up office in DC in 2017.
[12:55] people asking us why do you feel you need to set up office in 2017 and we felt that what was happening back back then not just US China but even with the United States required us to be on top of of of shifts that were happening there that could have global ramifications and so we've been building
[13:11] that we've been building up more portfolio strategy risk management uh um capabilities and tools uh AI um you know uh digitalization.
[13:21] so um without um uh talking about politics just from your point of view what are the main geopolitical trends you're seeing just now which have implications for you?
[13:31] well I think the first thing we have to bear in mind is that um the impact of liberation day and the tariffs I don't think anybody can predict what the real impact would be you know today you're increasingly hearing that it's a one-time effect on inflation perhaps but over time it just becomes part of cost structure and won't see accelerating inflation uh that means you have to take the view that the costs involved in production will continue to be stable.
[13:58] So what do you think are the implica the long-term implications of the tariffs?
[14:02] Well, so so tariffs first of all I think that you will see uh I think some inflationary impact but it will be different depending on countries and geographies and sectors and products and services.
[14:11] You cannot negate the effect
[14:13] of China as the leading manufacturing hub of the world but you can then talk about resilience.
[14:17] So tariffs makes you re reclassify or recalibrate what it means to have supply chain resilience because before supply chain resilience would have meant China plus one and the plus one could be Mexico could be uh Southeast Asia.
[14:31] or India today that question of plus one is also up in the air because of of of tariffs.
[14:35] So then the question comes about is okay if you want to have supply chain resilience how do you then operate in markets where you have something that gets yourself out of the realm of the highest impact of tariffs you know in particular uh especially going into the major markets and that's really the United States where tariffs are are relevant um.
[14:54] the second thing is you got to think about what it means for global trade because all of us are trading countries yeah you know every one of us and so our lifeblood is trade and investment and they go together and so as you look at the at what's have been happening with uh with with tariffs.
[15:09] Then the question comes as to what happens not just with point-to-point trade but intermediate
[15:14] trade which is so much part of the supply chains that we've been relying on to in effect to get a disinflationary world you know from a cost basis.
[15:24] when you look at production and then you got to think about where um uh you you know what do you have to you have to think about things like you know the US China um competition.
[15:35] how does it affect you in terms of where you invest in the US and where you invest in China and for that matter way invest in other countries as well.
[15:43] So increasingly if you think about the world today um it's not a bipolar world it's a multipolar world but the definition of multipolarity depends on on the person who thinks about it.
[15:54] but you do have a you do have a strengthening of the of the block of uh you know India Russia China which you didn't have before as exemplified in the.
[16:05] yeah but meeting you you yeah I think I don't think that would have been foreseen by the United States you know up to about you know four weeks ago for example.
[16:11] Yeah, but you know you do have cause and effect.
[16:14] So when something happens then
[16:16] you know that some other things may well happen.
[16:18] You can't predict all those things but some things you could say as a scenario could possibly happen which is why we we believe that scenario planning is so critical for us today you know to know what could possibly happen.
[16:30] Uh and so if you look at the uh the China India uh uh Russia um meeting that happened uh you know at the SEO clearly I think that's also a question of uh ensuring resilience against vulnerabilities for all of them for each one of them but it means different things to each one of them it means a different thing for China for Russia and for and for India
[16:53] um and that's sort of one example you know um but I think that uh when we look at geopolitics Um, you also have to think about, for example, how is Europe going to react to all of this?
[17:05] It's sort of caught in the middle because and so and how will Europe react?
[17:08] I mean, I'm hoping that they react in a way that focuses on growth, you know, and because when you focus on growth, you're creating economic opportunity.
[17:16] Are you are you seeing signs of this?
[17:20] you know I think that there there is a willingness to look that way but the actions have not yet come out at a pace that we would like.
[17:28] look at the US it's moving so quickly other countries are reacting.
[17:32] Europe seems like it's still moving at a glacial pace it needs to up itself you know because we want to put more capital in U in in Europe.
[17:40] but Brussels has to figure out how to be an enabler for business you know and and you know you can't you can't be putting yourself in a situation where you're pressing the brake if there's nobody pressing the accelerator.
[17:52] Yeah.
[17:52] Okay.
[17:54] And we need a couple markets in there and so many other things that goes with it.
[17:56] Talking about accelerator, you uh briefly mentioned the themes, right, that you are looking at in the world now.
[18:00] Should we can we just unpack that a bit?
[18:03] So, the four themes that you're talking about.
[18:05] Yeah.
[18:09] So, you know, I think quite frankly, I think we have to reook at our themes because a lot of things have changed, but one of but the four themes are still relevant.
[18:13] you know the uh the issue of digitalization includes
[18:17] therefore digital data AI okay so now it's much more broader than just a generic definition of digitalization and what does AI mean uh for for for countries for businesses and for society.
[18:29] uh the second thing is of course if we look at longer lifespans the developed world is aging and therefore how what does that mean in terms of sectors which are relevant could be healthcare could be retirement savings and therefore asset management insurance and the like.
[18:43] uh if you look at and that also goes to future consumption because future consumption is different for emerging markets versus developed markets demographics as well.
[18:50] If you ask me the India story is a story of consumption.
[18:54] It's not so much a story of industrialization.
[18:55] It's actually the effect of industrialization on the Indian consumer.
[18:58] You know quite part of whatever else is going on now.
[19:01] India has been a services sector for the longest time.
[19:04] And so the benefits of that in the context of rising consumerism is is high.
[19:08] Uh if you think about uh things to sustainable living, it used to be associated with just moving into green energy.
[19:16] But let's face it, today it's energy
[19:18] itself.
[19:21] Because when you talk about um uh you know energy, you have to talk about energy security, energy affordability.
[19:24] It's not just about going from brown to green.
[19:30] You know, you got to go from brown to light brown to greenish brown to light green to to to to green.
[19:35] And so for us, the question is is what's the mix that's going to be relevant to get the net zero.
[19:39] So for example, we start to invest in nuclear energy a few years ago.
[19:42] And we not just invest in nuclear fusion, we also invest in nuclear fusion.
[19:45] we are still invested in LG.
[19:49] 96% or 95 96% of Singapore's energy uh source is LG because we can't produce uh renewable energy first of all land mass.
[19:56] Secondly cloud cover you know uh and so and with climate change that's becoming even more difficult.
[20:00] So but when you look at LG how can you have low carbon energy and blending is one element of it.
[20:07] making sure there's no leakage of methane is the second otherwise it's just as bad as coal.
[20:11] uh the third thing is if you think about coal then it's managed phase out of coal.
[20:14] Then how do you help accelerate that how do you contribute towards that issue you know do you also get involved in blended
[20:20] finance for that so that there is in
[20:22] fact a just transition uh before you can
[20:24] even think about renewable energy and
[20:26] infrastructure that's needed to go into
[20:28] that between uh battery storage
[20:29] upgrading the grid and the renewable
[20:31] energy infrastructure with solar panels
[20:33] and wind farms and what have you. So if
[20:36] you so therefore we look at sustainable
[20:37] living and that and living is for
[20:39] humanity
[20:41] um you know you have to be I would say
[20:43] quite considered
[20:44] >> about the things which you can do in the
[20:46] near term in the medium-term and the
[20:48] long term but you must be cleareyed
[20:50] about the fact that that the world needs
[20:51] to get greener because without that we
[20:53] have a bigger problem.
[20:54] >> How do you think about private versus
[20:55] public markets? Well, going back almost
[20:59] a decade.
[21:00] >> So, private are the companies which are
[21:01] not listed on the stock exchange.
[21:03] >> Yeah. Going back more than a decade when
[21:04] we started our 2020 strategy in in in
[21:06] April of 2011, 80% of our portfolio was
[21:10] publicly quoted, 20% was private. Fast
[21:14] forward a decade later, uh it was u 50
[21:17] odd% private, 40 odd% publicly quoted.
[21:21] And if you include in a public coded our
[21:24] Singapore companies that we control, you
[21:26] know, from 20% to to 50 60%. Uh that
[21:32] means a very small part of our portfolio
[21:34] is actually really publicly quoted.
[21:36] >> Yeah.
[21:37] Um, and by the way, you know, I would
[21:39] say in a low interest rate environment,
[21:41] um, and in a rather benign 2010s decade,
[21:45] going into private made a lot of sense,
[21:48] you know, because first of all, you
[21:49] didn't have
[21:49] >> where we and where are we now?
[21:51] >> I think now you have to be a little bit
[21:53] more circumsp
[21:56] um because I think it's wrong to
[21:58] conflate uh a generic model into where
[22:01] you should invest in the private
[22:03] markets. So, there's still value in
[22:05] private equity, but you have to be very
[22:06] good at managerial selection.
[22:08] >> There's still good value in uh in
[22:10] private credit despite what people think
[22:12] because if you are very clear-minded
[22:14] about um about how you invest in private
[22:17] credit and you're looking at actually
[22:19] cash yield rather than just pure pick
[22:20] and so on um you know you you might have
[22:24] a good opportunity set even in the next
[22:26] uh next in even as you go through
[22:27] cycles. The third of course is in the
[22:30] private markets is core plus
[22:31] infrastructure and core plus
[22:32] infrastructure is not a public market uh
[22:34] product. It's a private market product,
[22:36] but it gives you a yield and a and a
[22:37] decent uh low low double digit returns
[22:39] if you want.
[22:40] >> What's more risky? What's more risky
[22:42] now? Private or um public?
[22:44] >> Both are risky
[22:46] >> for different reasons.
[22:47] >> Okay. For different reasons. Um I would
[22:50] say that the problem with private
[22:51] markets is you have more opacity. As an
[22:54] investor in the private markets, you
[22:56] don't have the same access to
[22:57] information to know what to do. If
[23:00] you're in a par markets, because it's
[23:01] illquid, you can't pivot easily. So you
[23:04] have to be clear that when you put money
[23:06] in private markets, you're in there for
[23:08] the long haul.
[23:09] >> Well, in today's terms, 5 years could be
[23:11] long haul.
[23:12] >> And you are in there with your partner
[23:14] long-term partnerships.
[23:15] >> Yeah.
[23:15] >> How do you think about your partners and
[23:17] who are they?
[23:18] >> Yeah. By the way, before I forget, the
[23:19] danger of public markets is that if you
[23:21] measure from year to year, the
[23:22] volatility hits you.
[23:23] >> Yeah.
[23:24] >> So, it has to be managed. So, long-term
[23:25] partners. So I believe that really um
[23:28] and I've said this internally and with
[23:30] everybody I said look you know we we
[23:32] have to look at ourselves um as a
[23:35] network organization as one focus on
[23:37] partnerships. So in everything we do
[23:39] now, we should find ourselves thinking
[23:41] first and foremost who could partner
[23:43] with us on this unless unless it's a
[23:45] it's a it's a um investment opportunity
[23:48] where it doesn't allow us to look for
[23:50] partners. But I I think that's important
[23:53] because we need to realize that Tamasic
[23:55] we do not have all the skill sets needed
[23:57] for the for all the opportunities to
[23:59] come through our door and so we have to
[24:01] augment it with others who have it and
[24:02] therefore partnership is more important
[24:04] for them from that perspective. It's not
[24:06] about risk diversification. We don't
[24:08] look for partners of risk
[24:08] diversification. We look at at them as
[24:11] as partners to augment what we already
[24:13] have.
[24:14] >> How do you work with them?
[24:16] >> Well, I think that we are seen to be
[24:18] more relational and less transactional.
[24:21] I think that's generally what most
[24:22] people would say about we take time to
[24:24] build the relationships and we are you
[24:27] know we have a very good two and fro
[24:29] discussion. So we feel we should also
[24:31] bring something to the table and not
[24:32] just get ideas from them as well.
[24:34] >> What does it mean? What does it mean to
[24:35] be relational in your mind? I think
[24:37] that's where your first when you want to
[24:39] form a partnership, you've got to bear
[24:40] in mind that there must be this level of
[24:42] trust with each other. Trust not just in
[24:45] terms of something you want to get into,
[24:47] but even about sharing your information,
[24:49] knowledge, perspectives and things like
[24:50] that. The higher the level of trust, the
[24:52] higher the quality relationship
[24:54] >> and then if it translates into something
[24:55] tangible in terms of doing something
[24:57] together, it it's more likely to succeed
[25:00] than not because of that.
[25:02] >> Do you think there's some Asian thinking
[25:03] into your relationship thinking? I don't
[25:06] want to say that relational is only
[25:08] Asian because I have so many friends in
[25:10] the US and Europe and elsewhere where
[25:12] they have the same way of thinking. So I
[25:13] would say that it's very much up to the
[25:15] individuals and how they look at things
[25:17] in life. I do think that the world has
[25:19] become more transactional. I think that
[25:22] you know since countries have become
[25:24] transaction or countries could become
[25:25] more transactional and multilateralism
[25:27] gives rise to transactionalism the world
[25:30] may start to change a bit and then
[25:31] finding those people who think the same
[25:33] way as you do may not be as easy as
[25:35] before other than the relationships you
[25:37] already have.
[25:38] >> Uh I wouldn't but I would say in Asia
[25:41] trust comes from spending time building
[25:43] relationships. That's for sure.
[25:45] >> Yeah. It takes longer. takes longer.
[25:47] Well, we have things to learn here, I
[25:49] think. Um, moving on to the
[25:51] organization. So, you are uh a bit more
[25:54] than 900 people, 13 offices. Uh, what do
[25:57] the people do?
[25:59] >> So, apart from working hard,
[26:02] >> my colleagues may say that we work
[26:04] sometimes too hard, but you know, I'll
[26:05] put that everybody works hard especially
[26:07] in this world. Um, we have about 950
[26:10] people in Tamasi. Y
[26:12] >> um, and that's sort of like a stable
[26:14] number for time being. And like you
[26:15] mentioned we have 13 offices, 12 outside
[26:17] Singapore.
[26:19] We have 650
[26:21] people in Singapore. So the other 300 so
[26:24] two/3s on Singapore, one third outside
[26:26] and in Singapore we have a multinational
[26:29] cohort here.
[26:30] >> Uh we have something 35 nationalities
[26:32] working in Tamasic globally.
[26:34] >> In the markets the majority of people
[26:37] there are investment folks. in Singapore
[26:41] um the majority are people who support
[26:43] the investment engines you know um
[26:46] because we've actually put more people
[26:47] out into the markets uh directly so
[26:50] currently in terms of headcount um uh in
[26:54] the markets the US is the largest
[26:56] followed by China than Europe than India
[26:59] >> and um in the US the the vast majority I
[27:03] think I would say 80% of people we have
[27:05] there are investment folks the same
[27:06] thing with China the same thing with
[27:08] Europe and India What type of people do
[27:10] you hire? Who do you what do you look
[27:11] for?
[27:11] >> Uh historically we looked at people from
[27:13] investment banking. Uh because we found
[27:16] that they came well trained especially
[27:18] if you hire them for the best from the
[27:20] best banks and uh they would have they
[27:23] would know how to access the right
[27:25] information flows because that's what
[27:26] they would do as a normal thing and they
[27:28] come with some domain capability in
[27:30] terms of understanding the sectors that
[27:31] we hire them into. Uh and I'm talking
[27:33] about investment folks only. Yeah. Um
[27:36] more recently we've been trying to get
[27:38] people um who come from private equity.
[27:41] Um and when we look at the public
[27:43] markets part of the house uh we get
[27:46] people from long um long long asset uh
[27:49] managers as well as uh from hedge funds.
[27:51] Uh but we also lose them also as you
[27:54] know back to where they came from over
[27:56] time.
[27:56] >> But is still like a way of doing things.
[27:58] I mean it's like a bible or like a holy
[28:01] script is like this is the demos sec way
[28:03] of doing things and this is how we train
[28:04] you and this is how we do things. I
[28:06] think every organization has something
[28:08] like that. I mean we are very focused on
[28:10] our values you know we have uh six
[28:12] components of uh what we call merit
[28:14] value system and so we're very focused
[28:16] on this whole issue about excellence
[28:18] meritocracy respect integrity teamwork
[28:21] trust
[28:21] >> that won't change so that's actually
[28:23] culture you know I I think in any
[28:25] organization values cultures behaviors
[28:28] sense of purpose is critical you know
[28:30] but that forms the foundation that
[28:33] people can then leverage off for how
[28:35] they do their work in tamasi so that's
[28:37] the first part of our script we look for
[28:38] the values in people not just expertise.
[28:41] >> Um increasingly um we are toggling
[28:44] between people who can be generalists
[28:45] and people who are specialists and I say
[28:47] that because of the complexity of
[28:49] portfolio and so if we look at the three
[28:51] different components of portfolio each
[28:53] one of them has different
[28:54] characteristics. If you are going to be
[28:55] at the apex of organization you have to
[28:58] be flexible in your thinking you know
[29:00] and therefore um even if you're a
[29:02] specialist having some level of
[29:04] understanding about you know things like
[29:06] geopolitics global shifts for example
[29:08] and things that makes you a better
[29:10] leader so therefore we have to train
[29:12] people to do that now
[29:13] >> is there such a thing as a Singaporean
[29:15] value
[29:16] >> we like to say Singapore DNA
[29:19] >> what is that what is that
[29:20] >> well first of all I think for okay so if
[29:22] you look at our value system I would say
[29:23] Singapore stands for similar things you
[29:25] know meritocracy excellence respect for
[29:27] each other integrity is the most
[29:29] important value
[29:31] >> okay when when we say something people
[29:33] have to you know you want people to take
[29:34] us at our word I have done so many
[29:37] things Nikolai with my counterparts in
[29:39] the US elsewhere where it's done on a
[29:40] handshake where the lawyers and my and
[29:43] the colleagues on both sides say no no
[29:44] we have to put in writing and the two of
[29:46] us say nope we've promised each other we
[29:49] will keep to our word
[29:51] >> that's important and and if you don't
[29:53] have that sense of integrity and
[29:55] therefore trust in each other on the
[29:56] basis of that you know there will be a
[30:00] limit to what you can do so I think in
[30:01] Singapore that has always been something
[30:03] of value you know we we we do things on
[30:05] a principled way you know that's how we
[30:07] look at things
[30:08] >> why why has Singapore been so incredibly
[30:10] successful
[30:11] >> much of it I think is due to our
[30:13] founding fathers you know Lie Kuwanu and
[30:15] his first generation of leaders and not
[30:17] just the political leaders but also the
[30:19] civil servants who supported them was a
[30:21] whole team that um took took um uh I
[30:25] would say took over a Singapore that
[30:28] became self-governing away from colonial
[30:31] um uh running of our country to one that
[30:33] became part of Malaysia for 2 years to
[30:35] becoming independent without natural
[30:37] resources where your only resource are
[30:40] your people.
[30:41] >> That's why I see Tamasics not really
[30:43] primarily in the investment game. We're
[30:45] in the people game
[30:46] >> because the only way for us advance is
[30:47] to make sure the quality of our people
[30:50] uh how we train them is is critical when
[30:52] the people decide. But but if you look
[30:53] at the civil servants, they are much
[30:55] more highly paid than in most countries
[30:56] relative to
[30:57] >> So are the politicians.
[30:58] >> Absolutely. Civil servants, politicians
[31:00] really highly paid, very highly
[31:02] educated.
[31:03] >> They work very hard too.
[31:04] >> Yeah.
[31:05] >> Yeah. Extremely hard.
[31:06] >> What's the what's the consequence of
[31:08] having such like a cater of
[31:13] civil servants and politicians who are
[31:15] so what should we say outstanding?
[31:17] >> That's good for the country.
[31:18] >> Yeah. You know, I would say, you know,
[31:20] if you are a young Singaporean, you'd
[31:22] want that to be the case because you
[31:24] because if you have your life ahead of
[31:27] you, if you're 30 years old and you're
[31:29] going to work to the age of 80 because
[31:31] you can live to the age of 100, you
[31:32] know, um you want to make sure that your
[31:35] leadership, your political leadership
[31:36] and your your civil service have
[31:39] top-notch people and they have to be
[31:41] there to formulate policies where
[31:43] business can thrive.
[31:45] >> Okay, that's the main thing. So you need
[31:47] good people there who are able to engage
[31:49] with industry both within Singapore and
[31:51] outside to be able to think of the
[31:53] policies we need in the short term, in
[31:55] the medium and definitely the long term
[31:57] for Singapore to succeed. The one thing
[31:59] good about government is that they do a
[32:01] lot lot of long-term planning. So
[32:03] infrastructure buildout is always ahead
[32:04] of demand. You know, we're building
[32:06] terminal 5 at Changi right now. Uh we're
[32:08] not up to full capacity in terminals 1
[32:11] to four, but we're building it in
[32:12] anticipation of the world of travel of
[32:14] Singapore as a hub. uh you know and um
[32:17] we know that we need it we'll need it in
[32:19] about 10 years time but we we're
[32:21] building it now you know so when you do
[32:23] those things the government plays a very
[32:25] important role as an enabler first
[32:26] they're a policy uh originator but
[32:28] they're also an enabler and they have
[32:30] the fiscal balance sheet to do the
[32:32] infrastructure spending ahead of demand
[32:34] and that helps industry plan as well. So
[32:37] we own an airline. So when we see that
[32:40] we can also do that uh and dovetail it
[32:42] with our root network planning as well
[32:44] as our fleet planning and that allows us
[32:47] to think about what kind of aircraft we
[32:48] need to procure and things that you know
[32:50] it's very useful and I think that
[32:52] multinational corporations have
[32:53] understood how to leverage the
[32:56] government's policy thinking uh for for
[32:58] what they do in Singapore either uh for
[33:01] export or for or for regionalization as
[33:03] well. And uh and if you look at
[33:06] Singapore's economy, um it's really
[33:08] driven primarily by the fact that we
[33:10] have these multinationals mainly from
[33:12] the US, Europe, from Japan and so on
[33:14] here. And we have a bunch ofmemes to
[33:16] support them as part of an ecosystem.
[33:19] Tamas companies account for maybe just
[33:20] 5% of GDP in Singapore.
[33:22] >> Yeah. But yet, of course, we are
[33:24] important in the ecosystems in which we
[33:25] operate, you know, whether it's
[33:26] financial services or utilities,
[33:29] whatever. But we're leveraging a uh an
[33:32] ecosystem that has also been built
[33:34] because of the of the other contributors
[33:36] to our economy, especially the
[33:37] multinational corporations. And so we
[33:39] have to be an open economy. We have to
[33:41] be open to all of them to come in
[33:42] because that's the only way for us to
[33:44] remain competitive. The worst thing is
[33:46] for us to protect our own companies. To
[33:48] do that, I think, you know, we're
[33:49] setting ourselves up for a very
[33:51] different future for Singapore.
[33:52] >> Dylan, moving on to uh to you as a
[33:54] leader. How how would people
[33:55] characterize you as a leader?
[33:57] >> I don't know. You have to ask them
[33:58] actually I'm not sure that I want to
[34:01] think too much about it because
[34:03] I have a job to do. I got to do the best
[34:06] way I can and what I do is for the
[34:08] organization and what I do for the
[34:09] organization is for the people in the
[34:10] company.
[34:10] >> What's the key in everything I do by the
[34:12] way? So
[34:12] >> what's the key what's the key to be an
[34:14] efficient leader?
[34:15] >> Um I think you have to really think
[34:16] about the future all the time. You you
[34:18] you know you but you have to also
[34:21] prioritize things. Um because the
[34:23] organization
[34:24] has to keep up with you. you have to
[34:26] have followership and bring people
[34:27] along. And that means you have to
[34:29] engage, you know. Um, and uh, I would
[34:32] say that I've gotten better at engaging,
[34:34] but not quite there yet because I'm I'm
[34:36] also a bit impatient by nature. So,
[34:39] >> so how have you developed with age, you
[34:41] think?
[34:41] >> In some respects, I mellowed, in other
[34:43] respects I may not have mellowed. You
[34:44] know, when you get older, Nikolai, you
[34:46] realize your runway is getting narrower,
[34:48] you know, so you want to do more things
[34:49] more quickly. Um, but when you get
[34:51] older, you also realize sometimes when
[34:52] to pull back and you know that you you
[34:54] might be going too far too fast.
[34:56] >> How old are you?
[34:57] >> 62.
[34:58] >> It's a great age,
[35:00] >> I think. So to be 62 than 25 as of this
[35:02] moment.
[35:04] >> You said engaging with people. What do
[35:05] you how do you do that? Well, I I talk
[35:09] widely, you know, if I can say that even
[35:11] internally within the company, you know,
[35:13] I've I try to make sure I'm I'm
[35:15] accessible to people
[35:18] >> and um people want to have a chat with
[35:19] me, they can have a chat with me. Uh I
[35:21] make sure that we there are internal
[35:23] coms are f uh you know are focused on
[35:26] making sure our people are aware of what
[35:27] we're doing. Um and uh you know I well
[35:31] and then of course I've um I try to
[35:34] engage widely outside with our portfolio
[35:36] companies but also with our invested
[35:38] companies around the world and people I
[35:39] know around the world and I bring try to
[35:41] bring those insights back to the
[35:42] organization where I find them.
[35:44] >> How do you make sure that you prioritize
[35:45] the right things?
[35:46] >> You know you can only know you're doing
[35:48] the right things if your colleagues tell
[35:49] you are are in it with you and sometimes
[35:53] it takes time to persuade them because
[35:54] they may not see the world the same way
[35:56] you see the world. you know, CEOs tend
[35:58] to see a lot more than others and it's
[36:00] not it's it's it's quite natural because
[36:03] um we have to broaden our aperture and
[36:05] go out there and we have to think about
[36:07] many many different things and we have
[36:09] to think on based on horizons whereas
[36:11] people who have jobs where they're given
[36:13] a function to do they will tend to want
[36:15] to make sure that is done really really
[36:16] well you know and you need both right so
[36:19] in a sense uh you have to do a lot more
[36:22] persuading these days than before you
[36:26] know um and So you know you're on the
[36:28] right track where everybody finally sees
[36:29] what you're seeing and they're on track
[36:31] and they're moving faster than you.
[36:32] >> So uh on that note, how do you how do
[36:35] you absorb technology and AI into tease
[36:38] in the way you work?
[36:39] >> Yeah. So I I I would say that um we're
[36:42] still a work in progress. Um we have
[36:45] four things that we think about in terms
[36:46] of AI. Okay. First is how AI is an
[36:49] enabler for ourselves. Second is how do
[36:52] we use AI to future proof our portfolio
[36:56] >> and for that matter how how to ensure
[36:57] our portfolio is futurep proofed on the
[37:00] effects of AI
[37:02] >> okay for example operating companies.
[37:04] The third is how do we scale our AI
[37:05] exposure as a as a firm. And the fourth
[37:08] is um is the diffusion of AI within
[37:12] Singapore as a whole because we have so
[37:13] many companies which are involved in
[37:15] ecosystems here which make the country
[37:17] work the way it works uh or contributes
[37:19] towards that. And so the first thing of
[37:21] course is that within Tamasic we are now
[37:24] rolling out AI um at a much faster pace
[37:26] than before into all our workflows to
[37:28] become more efficient. So that's the one
[37:30] level and that goes towards
[37:32] productivity. Um and that's critical
[37:34] because one of the complaints that we've
[37:36] been getting over the years from younger
[37:37] people especially is that there's too
[37:38] much stuff that they have to do
[37:40] especially if they have to do
[37:41] administrative stuff in addition to uh
[37:43] to what they what they're doing on on
[37:45] investments and things like that. And so
[37:46] we're trying to make sure that we
[37:49] effectively and AI can actually help
[37:50] quite a bit
[37:51] >> there. Um I would say AI can definitely
[37:54] help them in terms of getting the base
[37:56] information that we need for any
[37:57] investment proposal. One can could
[37:59] possibly see that chat GPT could replace
[38:01] your associate and senior associate in
[38:03] which case you have to train your
[38:04] associate and senior associate to be to
[38:06] be performing at level two levels above
[38:08] them you know that's the only way you do
[38:10] it you know uh and therefore the
[38:12] brightest minds will have to be given
[38:14] the tools to succeed so that's the first
[38:16] thing you know and all our workflows I
[38:18] would say have to be AI enabled the
[38:20] second thing is um AI has to help us get
[38:23] better returns on our portfolio that's
[38:25] what we should be trying to achieve and
[38:27] that means Um AI is a tool for us for
[38:30] sourcing of investments. It's a tool for
[38:32] us for doing performance uh monitoring.
[38:35] Well, performance analysis and I would
[38:37] say investment analysis first and then
[38:38] performance monitoring. Um and finally
[38:41] portfolio management that's critical and
[38:43] so if we if we have AI embodied within
[38:46] our investment flows and the way in
[38:50] which we are approaching uh the sourcing
[38:52] the valuation the making and then the
[38:56] the managing of of our investment
[38:58] opportunities that I think will enhance
[39:01] the returns we get and also allow us to
[39:03] be more productive. What we want to do
[39:05] is to make sure we do fewer things, you
[39:08] know, and get a narrower range of
[39:10] outcomes so that we can get really
[39:11] long-term predictable returns, you know,
[39:14] uh for for the for the purposes of our
[39:16] net investment return contribution.
[39:19] >> Some personal questions um at the end,
[39:21] how do you relax?
[39:22] >> I run
[39:23] >> every day or
[39:24] >> uh I try to do it every day, you know.
[39:27] Uh I didn't do it this morning because I
[39:28] had to wake up early for a 7:30
[39:30] breakfast meeting and I was and I
[39:31] finished late last night. But generally
[39:33] I try I run every day.
[39:34] >> What do you read?
[39:35] >> I read a lot of stuff. Well, everybody
[39:38] reads news feeds, you know. So, you
[39:40] know, you read your local papers, you
[39:41] read the financial times, you read, you
[39:43] know, Wall Street Journal, etc. Uh um
[39:46] and then obviously things like the
[39:48] economist and so on. So, that's human
[39:49] given. That's basic. But I read a lot of
[39:51] books.
[39:52] >> Yeah.
[39:52] >> Now, we having dinner tonight. Uh pepper
[39:54] crab or chili crab?
[39:55] >> I prefer pepper crab only because it's
[39:58] less messy than chili crab. But the
[40:00] chili crab may actually taste better,
[40:02] you know. And I told you when I was at
[40:03] Oslo in September of 2023, I went to a
[40:06] restaurant in Oslo that served chili
[40:08] crab.
[40:08] >> That's good. I have to I have to I have
[40:10] to figure that one out. What is your
[40:12] advice to young people?
[40:13] >> Uh life is a journey. Life's a journey.
[40:16] It's got many phases. You have to be
[40:18] open to learning. You have to So when we
[40:21] talk about lifelong learning, be open to
[40:23] experiences.
[40:24] um think broadly, read widely, you know,
[40:28] however you want to read, you know,
[40:29] whether it's through the internet or
[40:31] chat GPT or books. Um you have to you
[40:35] have to read widely because the world
[40:36] now um is going into a very different
[40:39] phase going forward and things like AI,
[40:43] things like climate change and so on and
[40:44] they all converge at some point in time
[40:46] requires you to to to really think ahead
[40:49] because you're going to be living the
[40:50] next you know 60 70 80 years. you know
[40:53] that future belongs to you.
[40:55] >> Um all of us of our age group has to
[40:57] make sure that there's a bright future
[40:58] for them but they are also responsible
[41:00] for that. So I feel that in your life
[41:03] you you will have to be open to new
[41:05] opportunities
[41:06] >> new opportunities within your
[41:07] organization or even outside you know
[41:08] you can no longer join a company and say
[41:11] I'm going to be a lifer. The company has
[41:13] got to make it worth your while for you
[41:15] to be a lifer. I'll put it the other way
[41:17] around. Okay. So, so as much as a as a
[41:19] as employee has to justify themselves to
[41:21] employer, the employer has got to be
[41:23] forward thinking and and for moving
[41:25] forward to be justifiable to the
[41:27] employee. So I would say that in life uh
[41:31] you will find that doors will close but
[41:32] new doors will open
[41:34] >> and so you know look at it that way
[41:36] >> and and be optimistic. Okay, be
[41:38] optimistic because um over you know the
[41:42] world history has shown that we go
[41:44] through times of difficulties and we
[41:46] always come out better than the previous
[41:49] generation. So when there's darkness,
[41:52] you know, the dark clouds will give way
[41:54] to to light. That's how I believe.
[41:56] Absolutely.
[41:56] >> Well, optimists are more happy and make
[41:57] more money. And I think on that on that
[41:59] on that happy note, Dylan, it's been a
[42:00] pleasure.
[42:01] >> Thank you, Nikolai.
[42:01] >> Thank you. Thank you very much.