# Did the Bible Warn Us About AI? (with John Lennox)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjkWZOFacQ8

[00:00] You read Paul talking about the man of
[00:03] lawlessness who uses satanically powered
[00:06] deception and then you find this in the
[00:10] book of Revelation. And it seems to me
[00:12] that the spread of lies is one of the
[00:15] things that we have to face. And the
[00:17] only way to face it is to be grounded in
[00:20] the truth and to spend more time than we
[00:24] have done in scripture. And here's where
[00:27] I think the enemy has done a very
[00:29] impressive job of getting people to
[00:32] avoid the book of revelation because of
[00:35] speculative misunderstandings of the
[00:37] book that have led people into
[00:39] difficulty and lost their credibility.
[00:42] When I meet transhumanists, and I do,
[00:44] and they tell me about this exciting
[00:46] program, we're going to conquer the
[00:48] problem of physical death and we're
[00:50] going to upload our brains into silicon
[00:53] and we'll have eternal life. I just look
[00:56] at them and smile and say, "You're too
[00:57] late." The problem of physical death was
[01:00] solved 20 centuries ago when God raised
[01:02] Jesus from the dead. I think there's
[01:04] more evidence for the truth of that than
[01:06] there is the truth of your attempt to
[01:09] reach godhood, bypassing the fundamental
[01:12] problem that every bit of utopian
[01:15] thinking has always bypassed, and that
[01:17] is dealing with the problem of human sin
[01:20] and rebellion against God.
[01:22] >> Hey everyone, welcome or welcome back to
[01:24] Truth Units. I am very honored to be
[01:25] here with Professor John Lennox, one of
[01:28] the world's leading Christian
[01:29] intellectuals, and he's written a
[01:31] fascinating new book that we're going to
[01:32] discuss, God. If this title doesn't get
[01:35] your interest, I don't know that a title
[01:36] would. Uh, God, AI, and the end of
[01:39] history, understanding the book of
[01:41] Revelation in an age of intelligent
[01:43] machines. We'll talk about a, by the
[01:45] way, link to this book in the video
[01:46] description. Check it out. Give it a
[01:48] give it a look. Very edifying book. It
[01:50] does address AI, but it's also just
[01:52] about the book of Revelation and the
[01:54] hope that it gives. And my hope for our
[01:56] discussion is that the hope of the
[01:58] gospel would touch hearts that feel so
[02:00] anxious about the state of the world
[02:02] right now. So, John, what an honor to
[02:04] talk with you. Thank you so much for
[02:05] taking the time.
[02:06] >> It's a great pleasure to be with you for
[02:08] the first time. I believe
[02:11] >> that's right. It is first time for us to
[02:12] to speak, but I've been a long admirer
[02:14] of your books and your work. So, this is
[02:16] a real a real treat for me. Um, let me
[02:18] ask you this. says, "I was reading your
[02:20] book uh very carefully over this
[02:22] weekend. Uh you set out in the first few
[02:24] pages describing the state of the world
[02:27] and what an uncertain and unstable time
[02:30] it is and the feelings of chaos and
[02:33] instability and anxiety that are in many
[02:35] hearts. We're recording this in June
[02:38] 2026. The world feels more unstable to
[02:41] me than ever before in my lifetime. Has
[02:43] do you recall in your life a time where
[02:46] the world has ever felt so unstable?
[02:49] Not really. Not really. I have a vague
[02:53] memory of the Cuban crisis and at the
[02:56] height of the Cold War. There were
[02:58] certainly pretty scary times, but
[03:01] nothing of this order because I think
[03:04] we've entered a new era, a new era of
[03:08] danger to be quite frank, that's
[03:11] accelerating at a pace that it's very
[03:13] difficult to get used to.
[03:16] Do you think the unique pressures facing
[03:20] us today are the result are because the
[03:22] actual dangers are greater or because we
[03:25] lack the spiritual and moral ballast to
[03:28] face them?
[03:29] >> Well, I think it's both reasons. Um,
[03:32] accelerating technology which is not
[03:35] always policed properly or rarely, no
[03:39] ethical underpinning.
[03:42] And it's pretty clear to most people
[03:44] that technology advances much faster
[03:48] than the necessary ethics to underpin it
[03:51] and control it. That's the first thing.
[03:53] And the second thing is the sheer scale
[03:56] of the capacity of this new technology
[03:59] which is unlike anything we've had
[04:01] before. So we've landed in the midst of
[04:04] an a new industrial revolution and one
[04:08] that affects all of us not only
[04:10] indirectly but affects the very concept
[04:13] of human identity.
[04:15] You said like nothing else we've faced
[04:17] before. That comment resonates with me
[04:19] when I think back on recent
[04:21] technological leaps upward uh television
[04:24] and then the internet uh the impact of
[04:27] social media AI
[04:30] feels different. What to you what in
[04:34] your view what makes AI unique?
[04:39] It certainly feels different and it
[04:41] feels different because most the
[04:43] technologies that appeared before we
[04:46] felt we could understand them and in
[04:48] some sense we could dominate them and
[04:52] control them. Although that hasn't
[04:54] always proved successful but with AI
[04:57] it's now leaping forward at such a speed
[04:59] that even the pioneers of it aren't sure
[05:02] what they've discovered.
[05:04] And one of the big issues that they face
[05:07] is what they call the control problem.
[05:10] Will it get out of hand? And will it
[05:12] represent a danger to humanity? And of
[05:14] course, there's a very wide spectrum of
[05:18] difference of opinion. Uh some people
[05:21] think, and I quote, that it's no more
[05:24] risky than a toaster. Other people think
[05:27] it's much more risky than a nuclear
[05:29] bomb. So you've got this vast spectrum
[05:33] of opinions, but it's pretty obvious
[05:36] that the kind of AI that we've so far
[05:39] got working as distinct from the
[05:42] speculative sort of artificial general
[05:45] intelligence that we can look at a bit
[05:47] later if you wish. There's enough there
[05:50] to be very be worried about at a number
[05:54] of different levels. One of them is the
[05:59] capacity for control first of all of
[06:02] ethnic minorities but in the end of
[06:05] cultures and nations through the
[06:08] surveillance technology that is
[06:10] developed off the back of the pattern
[06:13] recognition
[06:15] facial recognition that kind of thing
[06:18] and is already being deployed in parts
[06:20] of China to subjugate that's the only
[06:24] word I could
[06:26] the minority people of the weaguers and
[06:29] that is being rolled out all across
[06:30] China but it's also being rolled about
[06:33] out in Russia and increasingly in the
[06:36] west and that threatens to become a
[06:40] totalitarian
[06:42] world regime
[06:44] of the kind uh anticipated in the
[06:48] dystopias of uh Huxley and of Orwell. So
[06:54] I could see there there is reason to be
[06:57] being worried. At the other end of the
[07:00] scale, I mean the scale in terms of age,
[07:03] young people are being seriously damaged
[07:07] by what is being fed to them
[07:10] deliberately
[07:11] by major corporations like Google and
[07:14] Meta uh in terms of addictive material.
[07:19] And there's been a landmark case in Los
[07:22] Angeles in the last month where they
[07:26] have been proven guilty of actually
[07:30] deliberately designing their websites to
[07:33] be addictive and
[07:36] resulting in affecting the mental health
[07:38] of young people. It's interesting on the
[07:41] side by the way that the prosecuting
[07:43] attorney is the number one attorney in
[07:47] the US Mark Laneir who's a Christian and
[07:50] he is very concerned about the influence
[07:53] of this kind of thing
[07:55] >> and parents of course many of us
[07:58] grandparents have read Jonathan height's
[08:00] book the anxious generation which really
[08:04] is opening our eyes to a very dangerous
[08:09] thing that is happening to our young
[08:11] people and it'll soon be too late to
[08:14] reverse it.
[08:15] >> In a moment we'll dive into the book of
[08:17] Revelation and then uh toward the latter
[08:19] portions of this discussion we'll
[08:21] discuss how should Christians respond to
[08:24] these challenges. Um one last question
[08:26] on AI. When I think about the challenges
[08:27] here and I'm following your comments
[08:29] very closely. There's the long-term
[08:31] threats uh that come at at a at a larger
[08:34] level and then there's the the more
[08:35] immediate and personal threats with that
[08:38] you've also alluded to from Jonathan
[08:39] height. One of the concerns I have and I
[08:41] have a very compassionate heart for our
[08:43] precious young people is the incredible
[08:45] loneliness. And I see people turning to
[08:47] AI as a friend and as a counselor and as
[08:50] a therapist and as a pastor and as a
[08:52] guide and so forth. And we we see kind
[08:55] of a breakdown of of deep friendships
[08:57] and relationships and community. Is this
[09:00] something that concerns you at all?
[09:01] >> Oh, it is. And it concerns some leading
[09:04] thinkers like Sher Turkl uh who authored
[09:09] the book Alone Together
[09:11] >> and that expresses what you said
[09:14] absolutely accurately that the so-called
[09:17] friendships and likes on Facebook and
[09:20] similar media are not friendships. They
[09:23] create distance between people and
[09:26] they're really lonely. And one of the
[09:28] fascinating things is the experiments
[09:31] that frustrated and anxious parents are
[09:34] making these days by taking the devices
[09:38] away from their kids and taking them out
[09:40] into the country for a week and they
[09:43] come back completely reinvigorated.
[09:45] They've discovered friendship. They've
[09:46] discovered nature. They've discovered
[09:49] each other. and they're no longer so
[09:51] addicted to spending many hours a day on
[09:56] those devices. And it seems to me that
[09:59] one of the things as Christians we ought
[10:02] to be fighting for is what I call
[10:04] electronic fasting which the meaning of
[10:07] which is obvious.
[10:09] >> Yes. Uh this is uh helpful as a start
[10:13] and I we're going to go to the text of
[10:14] Revelation now which gives us hope.
[10:17] That's what I hope uh viewers of this
[10:19] video and readers of your book will
[10:21] experience is we're not trying to just
[10:23] scold young people for doing something
[10:25] wrong. We This is my heart. I love young
[10:29] people and we're not as a society, we're
[10:31] not setting them up for success and we
[10:33] want to give counsel and help and
[10:35] reflection about these devices which
[10:37] affect us as well. They affect me. So
[10:40] we're we're offering hope here and the
[10:41] book of Revelation offers hope. As I
[10:43] read your book, I experienced it as a
[10:46] very pastoral book. You're you're
[10:48] working through the text. One of the
[10:50] things, and I'm going to set aside all
[10:51] my own views of Revelation for uh for
[10:53] the sake of this because I just want to
[10:55] learn about yours because there's plenty
[10:57] of space for Christians to explore this
[10:59] book and and uh look at different views.
[11:02] The details are very difficult. One of
[11:04] the things I appreciated early on is you
[11:05] gave a warning against speculation. And
[11:08] so you're saying, you know, it's really
[11:09] easy to take these shapes and images in
[11:12] the text and make them mean whatever we
[11:14] want. Could you give some comments about
[11:17] this about guard rails so that we don't
[11:20] start making the book of revelation in
[11:22] our own image and in our own interests?
[11:24] How do we avoid becoming unduly
[11:27] skeptical in our interpretation of
[11:30] revelation?
[11:32] Well, first of all, by anchoring our
[11:35] understanding of the more enigmatic
[11:38] parts of scripture in our understanding
[11:41] of the clear teaching that we find
[11:44] elsewhere in scripture and not using
[11:47] speculation in order to develop
[11:51] doctrines which are not taught
[11:53] elsewhere.
[11:55] And secondly by observing the big
[11:57] picture because the book of revelation
[12:00] is wonderful in terms of its literary
[12:02] structure. Three times over in chapter
[12:04] one it mentions coming the coming of God
[12:08] in the form of the coming of Christ. And
[12:11] three times at the end of the book in
[12:13] the final chapter
[12:15] Jesus says I am coming soon. Now, that
[12:18] ought to be enough to tell us that this
[12:21] book, its main message is to give us
[12:24] hope for the future that
[12:28] directs our minds to the central
[12:31] Christian hope that has always been the
[12:34] coming of Messiah at all of its levels.
[12:37] First Jesus coming into the world and
[12:40] then his promise both to his disciples
[12:42] in private and to his judges in public
[12:46] that he would return to rule the world.
[12:49] And I think that is the central hope
[12:51] that is offered to us. It's clearly
[12:53] supernatural, of course, but it is a
[12:56] wonderful hope that we've got a future
[12:58] to look forward to that's not under the
[13:01] control of the monster of artificial
[13:04] intelligence, but is in control of the
[13:08] Lord Jesus Christ who loved his fellow
[13:11] human beings more than anyone else has
[13:13] ever done.
[13:15] >> Beautiful. And I love that focus on the
[13:17] big picture hope there. That that's what
[13:19] my own heart often needs. Let's get into
[13:21] the details of Revelation just a bit uh
[13:24] to and I especially want to ask you
[13:26] about chapter 13 and and uh the beast
[13:30] and uh you know this is because this
[13:32] comes up in your book and this is where
[13:33] you have some discussion about AI um and
[13:36] and some of the things that that that uh
[13:39] I'll ask well let's go piece by piece
[13:41] here. When you think about the beast in
[13:43] Revelation 13 are you thinking about a
[13:46] person? Are you thinking about a system
[13:48] or an empire or a pattern? How do you
[13:50] think about this entity?
[13:53] >> Well, I think it may be more complex
[13:55] involving uh both of these elements.
[13:58] It's better to stand back from it and
[14:01] tell you just how I came to think about
[14:04] it at all. I call it the monster because
[14:08] I think the word beast doesn't convey
[14:12] its severity, so to speak,
[14:15] >> uh well enough. And the word monster is
[14:19] a very good word as I understand it. But
[14:22] what really happened is this that I have
[14:25] written two books on AI under the same
[14:29] title 2084. The first one appeared in
[14:32] 2020 and four years later Zanderan asked
[14:35] me to update it, revise it. So I wrote a
[14:38] book twice as long. And in both of the
[14:41] versions of that book, I was looking at
[14:45] some of the scenarios that leading
[14:47] thinkers,
[14:49] scientifically qualified thinkers have
[14:52] as they look at the future. And one of
[14:55] the books I came across was a book
[14:58] called life 3.0,
[15:01] sorry, life 2.0, zero uh by an American
[15:05] physicist and Max Tegmark who's very
[15:09] well known and I observed in reading
[15:12] that that he had a series of half a
[15:17] dozen or a dozen different possibilities
[15:20] for the future that he gave various
[15:23] names to and in them you had a
[15:26] benevolent AI controlling the world or a
[15:30] despotic AI controlling the world, etc.,
[15:33] etc., all these possibilities.
[15:35] But the one he seemed to favor most,
[15:38] although he didn't put his flag down on
[15:41] anyone in the end, was one that was very
[15:45] interesting. He talked about a
[15:48] development within Amazon that enabled
[15:50] this company to expand and gain economic
[15:54] control of the world so that we had a
[15:57] totalitarian regime. And of course in
[16:01] dystopias
[16:03] uh or even utopias for the future the
[16:06] concept of a world uh government figures
[16:10] very strongly and of course many
[16:12] politicians think that it ultimately is
[16:15] the only solution for the human race.
[16:18] But anyway, take Mark talks about this
[16:20] organization called Prometheus that
[16:24] controls the world and every citizen, he
[16:28] goes into specifics and he said every
[16:30] citizen is given uh a technologically
[16:35] highly developed bracelet to wear on
[16:38] their arm. And to quote what he says, it
[16:41] has the functionality of an Apple Watch.
[16:44] So it's listening and watching and
[16:46] recording all conversations and
[16:49] everything that you see and do etc etc.
[16:53] And he then adds that it has the
[16:56] capacity to inject a lethal toxin into
[17:01] the person that's wearing it if the
[17:03] controlling government doesn't approve
[17:05] of their ideas or their activities. And
[17:09] as I read that I thought how very
[17:11] interesting. Here is one of the world's
[17:14] leading physicists, a very serious
[17:16] thinker, and what he's come up with is
[17:20] eerily, uncannily close to what is
[17:24] mentioned in those chapters of
[17:26] Revelation 13 and so on, where we read
[17:30] of a monster who's clearly in control of
[17:33] the world. And there are two monsters
[17:36] actually, and one promotes the worship
[17:39] of the first. And that's something we
[17:41] need to come to because worshiping the
[17:44] AI monster is a very real concept these
[17:47] days especially relatively recently.
[17:50] And what happens is that this second
[17:55] monster, often called the false prophet,
[17:59] encourages the world population to make
[18:02] what is called an image to the first
[18:05] monster that can speak and breathe and
[18:11] has the power to cause all inhabitants
[18:15] of the world, so it's global, to worship
[18:18] the first monster. Now, this is
[18:20] intriguing because it raises the
[18:23] question, what is this thing that is
[18:25] constructed by human skill and energized
[18:29] ultimately by satanic power? It's no
[18:32] innocent thing. And if it has economic
[18:35] control over the world, you cannot buy
[18:38] or sell if you don't carry the mark of
[18:40] the monster. And now
[18:44] it can kill anybody that it desires to
[18:47] kill. This is exactly the scenario that
[18:50] tagged Mark mentions. Now here's my
[18:52] argument very simply. If people are
[18:55] prepared to take seriously in the 21st
[18:58] century the kind of scenario that Ted
[19:01] Bark depicts in his book, then I want to
[19:05] argue that it's worth reverting and
[19:08] taking seriously
[19:10] a 20 centuries older
[19:13] piece of imagery that seems to be saying
[19:16] almost
[19:18] identically
[19:19] what take Mark is saying. And it it is a
[19:24] fascinating thing, it seems to me. Now,
[19:27] if it is objected, look, Revelation is a
[19:30] book full of symbols. I will agree
[19:33] entirely, but I've read enough CS Lewis
[19:36] to know that symbols and metaphors are
[19:39] used to represent realities. And the
[19:42] interesting thing is that the New
[19:43] Testament also gives us in plain
[19:48] theological text without any symbolism
[19:51] in Paul's second letter to the
[19:53] Thessalonians,
[19:54] he talks about a human being that gains
[19:58] control of the world and proclaims
[20:02] himself to be God. A human being who's
[20:04] destroyed by the second coming of
[20:06] Christ. And it seems to me it's
[20:09] inescapable logic that this individual
[20:14] is actually at the head of an empire, a
[20:16] world empire. And the imagery in the
[20:19] book of Revelation covers both things.
[20:22] And in Thessalonians plain text, the the
[20:26] uh this person human being is destroyed
[20:29] by the coming of Christ. And in the book
[20:32] of Revelation, the monster is destroyed
[20:34] by the coming of Christ. So, putting two
[20:36] and two together, it seems to me that
[20:39] the book of Revelation is unpacking for
[20:42] us what Paul said to the Thessalonian
[20:46] Christians when he'd only been there
[20:49] about 3 weeks. He taught them about the
[20:52] future. Now, here's my final point of
[20:54] this gaffin, and it's this. Why did Paul
[20:58] talk like this
[21:00] to new Christians?
[21:02] Because as he himself explains it, he
[21:06] says the mystery of lawlessness is
[21:08] already operating. And he means
[21:11] spiritual lawlessness. The kind of thing
[21:13] that pushes a man or a humanly designed
[21:17] machine to claim to be God. The mystery
[21:20] of lawlessness is already operating.
[21:23] That is in the Roman Empire with the
[21:26] emperors claiming to be gods and all the
[21:28] rest of it. And I think what Paul is
[21:31] warning Christians then and by extension
[21:34] warning us now even more forcefully to
[21:38] beware of trends in our culture that are
[21:41] pushing the deification of human beings.
[21:44] And that brings us straight to the door
[21:47] of the transhumanist movement and the
[21:50] attempt to create
[21:53] uh artificial general intelligence or
[21:56] super intelligence which is very much in
[21:58] the air at the moment.
[22:00] >> Thanks for unfolding that. And if people
[22:02] want to trace this out in your book,
[22:04] I'll just mention to give them a tip
[22:05] here around page 340 and forward for
[22:09] about 15 pages you work through this.
[22:11] And you know, it's compelling in that
[22:13] what you're doing is you're you're
[22:14] reading Revelation 13 and then you're
[22:17] reading not just one but several texts
[22:21] and predictions about what AI could do
[22:24] and you're saying, you know, it it's not
[22:27] easy to see that there's some some
[22:29] common features here. Now, whatever a
[22:31] Christian may come to about the details
[22:33] of Revelation 13, I think the principles
[22:35] here are something we all need to
[22:38] wrestle with. And we've got some
[22:40] disturbing trends going on. You
[22:41] mentioned false worship. Let's talk
[22:43] about this for a moment. What do you
[22:44] think it can look like for a modern
[22:46] society to worship technology without
[22:49] using explicitly religious language?
[22:52] >> Well, they do use explicitly religious
[22:56] language. There's a very interesting
[22:58] book by Karen How
[23:01] was a very highpowered AI journalist and
[23:05] it's called
[23:07] Empire. the empires of AI or something
[23:10] like that. And I read it recently and
[23:12] it's a very disturbing book. It's
[23:15] particularly about uh Sam Alman of Open
[23:19] AI and she quotes a statement that has
[23:24] been quoted a great deal these days and
[23:26] it goes something like this. A
[23:28] successful person can create a business.
[23:31] A very successful person may be able to
[23:34] create a country but an extremely
[23:37] successful person
[23:39] can create a religion and often the way
[23:43] to do that is to create a company and
[23:46] it's very interesting that she uses the
[23:50] metaphor the metaphor of the empire of
[23:55] AI and creating I quote the monster god
[24:01] or the AI, the machine god. More
[24:04] accurately, it's the machine god. And
[24:07] it's obvious uh just to sit back for a
[24:11] moment when we think of what the
[24:14] simplest kind of narrow AI can do. It
[24:17] seems to many people to be omnipresent.
[24:20] We've got the internet everywhere. It
[24:22] seems to be omniscient. It can answer
[24:24] any question you want to ask. It can
[24:27] create scriptures for you. It can be a
[24:29] companion. you can talk to it. Uh the
[24:33] chat bots and all the rest of it, it can
[24:35] answer questions way beyond your own
[24:37] individual educational level. In other
[24:40] words, it's rapidly developed the
[24:43] features and characteristics that we
[24:46] normally associate with God. So people
[24:49] are starting to worship it. And some
[24:51] leading intellectuals in our
[24:53] universities are saying, well, we should
[24:55] greet this because this is the way
[24:57] forward to the future. Not the worship
[25:00] of a transcendent God out there, but the
[25:03] worship of a God in here because what
[25:05] we're doing is creating God. Now, that I
[25:10] see as a huge danger. Why? Because that
[25:15] push, that drive started on the second
[25:19] page of the Bible where the temptation,
[25:24] the original temptation to humans would
[25:26] be God said don't eat of that tree, but
[25:30] he knows that in the day you eat of it,
[25:32] you shall be as gods, knowing good and
[25:35] evil. So go ahead and eat it because the
[25:38] effect will be that you will rise in
[25:41] your status. And that push has been
[25:44] there from the very beginning. And now
[25:48] it has become mainstream in the writings
[25:53] particularly of Yuval Noah Harari and
[25:55] his book of the title Homodus, the man
[25:58] who is God.
[26:00] And Paul's warning in Thessalonians
[26:03] to me is to say just be careful of
[26:06] anything in the culture that is pushing
[26:09] the deity of human beings.
[26:12] And there's every amount of that and
[26:16] resist it. We need to resist it. And we
[26:19] need to resist it for several very
[26:22] important reasons. the main one being
[26:25] because the human beings we have got now
[26:28] are not just one stage in a lengthy
[26:30] mindless unguided process of
[26:32] naturalistic evolution. They are beings
[26:35] made in the image of God. And I think it
[26:38] is very important for us as Christians
[26:41] to seriously
[26:43] think of what it means to be made in the
[26:46] image of God.
[26:48] >> Yeah. Oh, I I have qu maybe some
[26:50] questions about that. Um let let me ask
[26:52] this first though because I think what I
[26:55] what has come into my mind as I've
[26:57] considered this topic is AI seems like
[27:00] this very futuristic niche narrow issue
[27:04] but then the more you think about it the
[27:06] more you realize this actually has
[27:07] profound spiritual consequences for just
[27:10] how we live dayto-day and uh whatever
[27:13] view someone takes on the book of
[27:14] revelation we have to think through you
[27:16] know the question like this that you
[27:17] raised comes up is what does it mean to
[27:19] be a human being what is it that
[27:20] actually makes us unique. Now, I went
[27:22] into this thinking, well, surely, but
[27:23] what what 99% of people will all agree
[27:25] on is that human beings have value, and
[27:27] so we need to protect against AI uh
[27:30] intruding on that value. As I'm
[27:32] listening to interviews, I'm hearing
[27:33] people talk about, well, maybe human
[27:35] beings don't have that much value. Maybe
[27:36] it'd be okay if we were eclipsed by AI
[27:39] and this kind of thing. And I've never
[27:41] found the doctrine of the image of God,
[27:43] creation in the image of God, more
[27:44] precious and more necessary than when
[27:47] considering these kind of transhumanist
[27:49] threats that come up. And so I guess one
[27:51] one aspect that comes more deeply into
[27:53] my heart, which I'll just say this and
[27:55] then give you a chance if you want to
[27:56] comment on this is uh this topic raises
[27:59] for us the importance of remembering the
[28:01] special value of human beings given by
[28:04] God. that when a human being is created,
[28:06] God endows upon that person value and
[28:11] dignity because they are made in the
[28:13] image of God. And I'm thankful for that.
[28:15] If we didn't have that paradigm, uh I I
[28:17] think it'd be much harder to navigate
[28:19] some of these questions with AI. That's
[28:21] just a personal statement. If you want
[28:22] to comment on that, please, and then
[28:23] I'll jump into a next question.
[28:25] >> Well, I do because it is important, as
[28:27] you say. In fact, it's the foundational
[28:30] statement on which all civilized values
[28:34] are based. As Jordan Peterson com
[28:36] commented in one of his readings in
[28:39] Genesis
[28:40] that human beings, male and female, are
[28:43] given infinite dignity because they're
[28:45] made in the image of God. Now the
[28:49] fascinating thing about human beings and
[28:52] human intelligence
[28:54] as contrasted with artificial
[28:56] intelligence is that human intelligence
[28:59] has been coupled by God with
[29:01] consciousness.
[29:03] And this is where we need to I think
[29:06] stand very firm.
[29:08] The difficulty in talking about AI is
[29:12] that we use very readily
[29:16] anthropomorphisms. We talk about
[29:18] artificial intelligence, machine
[29:21] learning and all the rest of it. And it
[29:24] sounds as if we're imparting a human
[29:26] dimension to these machines. But they
[29:29] are just machines. They do not think.
[29:33] They are not intelligent in the way
[29:35] humans are. They simply simulate
[29:39] intelligence. And that's crucially
[29:41] important. The leading figures who have
[29:43] produced the AI that we're using now
[29:46] aren't even trying to create a conscious
[29:49] being because they don't even know what
[29:51] that would mean. And they're quite happy
[29:53] to play what they call the imitation
[29:56] game going back to Allan Turing. Now I
[29:59] develop all this not in my book on
[30:01] revelation but in my book 2084.
[30:05] Now just think about it. These machines
[30:08] do not think.
[30:11] They do not have the five senses that
[30:14] God has given us. They cannot see. They
[30:18] can recognize patterns programmed into
[30:21] them. But they do not have the
[30:23] experience of seeing.
[30:25] They cannot smell. They cannot feel.
[30:30] They cannot hear.
[30:33] They cannot and so on. They do not have
[30:38] any experience of what we call quailia.
[30:41] They cannot understand the redness of
[30:43] red. They cannot perceive beauty. And
[30:46] those things
[30:48] for which we ought to be very thankful
[30:51] are the things that make us utterly
[30:54] unique. So that's the first major point.
[30:58] But there's a second one that's got to
[31:00] be made. And that is this. That the
[31:05] transhumanist effort is an attempt to
[31:08] turn humans into gods, little gods,
[31:12] little gds. As Harrari says, the essence
[31:16] of the Christian gospel is not humans
[31:19] trying to become gods, but at its heart
[31:23] lies a movement in the opposite
[31:24] direction. Is God becoming human? And
[31:29] here's to my mind the most important
[31:34] thing about human beings like you and
[31:37] me. They are so special
[31:42] that God created them so that he could
[31:44] become one.
[31:46] Now that immediately injects into this a
[31:49] uniqueness that I do not want to
[31:54] diminish in any way. The incredible
[31:57] statement in John's gospel, the word
[32:00] became flesh and dwelt among us. And the
[32:02] wonder of that is the reason for it is
[32:06] that he became God became human in order
[32:10] not to turn us into gods but to give us
[32:13] the opportunity
[32:15] through trusting Christ for forgiveness
[32:17] and pardon a new life to become members
[32:21] of God's family sharing his life. And
[32:26] the irony of that, Gavin, is this. When
[32:28] I meet transhumanists, and I do, and
[32:31] they tell me about this exciting
[32:33] program, we're going to conquer the
[32:35] problem of physical death, and we're
[32:37] going to upload our brains into silicon,
[32:40] and we'll have eternal life. I just look
[32:43] at them and smile and say, "You're too
[32:44] late." And they're puzzled. They say,
[32:47] "But we haven't got there yet. You don't
[32:50] understand." I said the problem of
[32:52] physical death was solved 20 centuries
[32:54] ago when God raised Jesus from the dead.
[32:57] And as for uploading, you know what I'm
[33:00] looking forward to? I'm looking forward
[33:03] to the day when God's going to upload me
[33:05] through Christ into the world to come
[33:08] because he's given me the life that's
[33:10] going to operate and do it. And I think
[33:14] there's more evidence for the truth of
[33:15] that than there is the truth of your
[33:19] attempt to reach godhood
[33:23] bypassing the fundamental problem that
[33:26] every bit of utopian thinking has always
[33:29] bypassed and that is dealing with the
[33:31] problem of human sin and rebellion
[33:33] against God. So I think we've got a
[33:35] message that resonates because people
[33:37] understand it. I discover
[33:41] >> what a thrilling thought that for our
[33:43] friends who may be enamored with AI when
[33:46] we get to share with them about Jesus,
[33:49] we're sharing them uh with them a
[33:51] message that is far more more exciting
[33:54] than than anything that could be drawing
[33:56] their interest. And I hope that will
[33:58] really resonate with our viewers to
[34:00] think about uh on from this topic going
[34:02] back to the sheer wonder of what God's
[34:04] already done. Let's talk a final wing of
[34:07] the interview here. Last few questions
[34:09] about how Christians should respond to
[34:11] the the the challenges we face. One of
[34:15] the challenges is with AI, the
[34:17] possibility of misinformation being
[34:19] spread. Um,
[34:22] in your book, you discuss uh
[34:24] nonparticipation
[34:26] in lies. I like that little phrase. Are
[34:29] there ways that you think Christians can
[34:31] unwittingly be drawn into participating
[34:35] in lies or misinformation without even
[34:37] realizing it?
[34:38] >> Oh yes. Uh that quote is from Alexander
[34:41] Soldier
[34:43] >> and I remember when I read it, it it
[34:46] affected me deeply. Live not by lies. I
[34:49] think it was a graduation talk he gave
[34:54] shortly after being deported from Soviet
[34:57] Russia.
[34:59] Well, I can tell you a very simple story
[35:01] that illustrates it. About a month ago,
[35:03] I had a letter from a Christian, a
[35:07] serious theologically highly educated
[35:10] Christian who said, uh, I'd like to
[35:12] refer to a lecture I heard you give on
[35:15] the internet recently, and I liked it so
[35:18] much I'd like to turn it into a book.
[35:20] And I said, what is this lecture? and he
[35:22] told me about and I'd never heard of it.
[35:24] So I looked it up and to my amazement I
[35:27] discovered a website called Lennox
[35:30] Logic. I hadn't set it up.
[35:33] >> It was a deep fake at all levels. A deep
[35:37] fake of me using my image and then there
[35:41] was a set of lectures attached to this.
[35:45] me talking things that I would never
[35:48] have talked a jumble of politics, Middle
[35:51] Eastern politics talking about Israel
[35:54] and Revelation, all this kind of thing
[35:57] and it had attracted seven or 8 thousand
[36:00] followers. Now the amazing thing is
[36:04] my friend wanted to transcribe this.
[36:08] It didn't even occur to him it was a
[36:10] fake. So in that sense to quote
[36:13] scripture even the elect were deceived
[36:15] by it and it's just a simple example of
[36:19] what's happening all around the world.
[36:22] Voices can be cloned. They can imitate
[36:25] for example any of my children's voices
[36:27] and I could get a phone call saying,
[36:29] "Dad, I need you to give me $1,000 or
[36:32] whatever because I'm stuck here and here
[36:34] and here." And a parent's heart would go
[36:36] out to that. But it isn't your daughter
[36:39] at all. And we're now in a situation
[36:42] where the five eyes, that is the leaders
[36:45] of the secret services in your country,
[36:48] mine, and a few others are very
[36:51] concerned that we have a capacity to
[36:54] disseminate lies at a level that is
[36:58] hitherto unprecedented.
[37:00] Now why that is important? It seems to
[37:03] me that if you ask yourself what did
[37:06] Jesus warn his disciples against in
[37:11] light of the future. One of the major
[37:13] thing was take heed that no one will
[37:17] lead you astray.
[37:19] You read Paul talking about the man of
[37:22] lawlessness who uses satanically powered
[37:26] deception. And then you find this in the
[37:29] book of revelation. And it seems to me
[37:32] that the spread of lies is one of the
[37:35] things that we have to face. And the
[37:38] only way to face it is to be grounded in
[37:40] the truth and to spend more time than we
[37:45] have done in scripture. And here's where
[37:47] I think the enemy has done a very
[37:50] impressive job of getting people to
[37:53] avoid the book of revelation because of
[37:56] speculative
[37:58] misunderstandings of the book that have
[38:01] led people into difficulty and lost
[38:03] their credibility. But there's so much
[38:06] good stuff in it that could encourage
[38:10] Christians. And that's what I tried to
[38:11] do in the book. I don't understand it
[38:14] all, but I think there's enough that we
[38:16] can understand and confidently
[38:19] uh share with our fellow believers and
[38:22] others that will actually put real
[38:26] content into the hope that we need to
[38:28] have if we're going to ride the waves
[38:31] and the storms that are going to hit us
[38:34] inevitably.
[38:36] >> Yes. The way you described your book, uh
[38:38] maybe we can just make a quick comment
[38:40] about this as we're nearing the end. I
[38:41] have two two final questions after this,
[38:43] but first just to ask you, is this an
[38:45] accurate understanding that you you
[38:46] didn't set sit down to write a book
[38:48] saying, "Well, I want to write something
[38:49] about AI. Let's go to Revelation."
[38:51] Rather, you you wrote a a very detailed
[38:54] book about Revelation, and some of the
[38:56] details in the text raise applications
[38:58] that then apply to how we're thinking
[39:00] through questions about AI. Have I got
[39:03] you right there?
[39:04] >> Oh, you have indeed. the the title is
[39:07] misleading and I pointed that out to the
[39:09] publishers who thought it would really
[39:11] fly. But this is a book about revelation
[39:14] primarily with applications to AI. It is
[39:18] not my most recent book about AI. That
[39:20] book is 2084.
[39:23] >> Yeah. Well, that's helpful to know and
[39:24] and because this topic does but but
[39:27] there is there is an application to be
[39:29] made here, I think. Let two final
[39:31] questions. First, do you think
[39:33] Christians should use AI? And if so,
[39:36] where do you set sort of the moral
[39:38] boundaries for that usage?
[39:41] >> Well, there is a sense at which that's
[39:43] like asking me, do you think Christians
[39:45] should use a Bible dictionary?
[39:48] And the answer is yes. But the point is
[39:52] to distinguish between AI being a tool
[39:55] for finding things out and a master. And
[40:00] the danger is that it slips from being a
[40:03] tool to be allconsuming because its
[40:06] capacity and diverting people and
[40:10] occupying their time. You see the goal
[40:13] of many of the mega corporations
[40:15] involved in this technology. Their goal
[40:19] is to keep you attending, keep you
[40:21] scrolling, keep your interest. And we
[40:24] need to resist that. So, I use myself, I
[40:28] use a by uh I'll use AI to check facts,
[40:33] to look things up, but still you've got
[40:36] to do the checking. You find things out.
[40:39] You could have AI draft a letter and
[40:42] sometimes it'll do it brilliantly, but
[40:44] you need to check very carefully so that
[40:46] what eventually goes out from you is
[40:50] something for which you will take
[40:52] responsibility.
[40:53] But the danger is and it's a obvious
[40:57] danger in educational terms. It's making
[41:01] it very difficult for universities to
[41:05] teach language and literature because or
[41:07] history or many other things because AIS
[41:11] are now so good at writing essays and
[41:14] dissertations and all the rest of it.
[41:16] They can fly through all the
[41:17] examinations you care to mention. And
[41:20] educators are wondering what on earth to
[41:22] do. And here you get a huge spit. Some
[41:25] say, "Well, if they're clever enough to
[41:27] use AI, let them use it." Others say,
[41:29] "No, take it away. Let's get back to
[41:32] some uh closed book examinations in a
[41:35] Faraday cage so there's no danger of uh
[41:39] influence by technology. We're facing a
[41:42] totally new ballgame when it comes to
[41:45] education and development. But I think
[41:47] the main thing is that it should be
[41:50] obvious by now that this technology not
[41:54] even including AI has become so
[41:57] addictive it's rewiring brains
[42:00] particularly young brains and minds and
[42:03] we need to address this so that we can
[42:05] break this cycle this vicious circle and
[42:09] get people back to interaction with
[42:12] their fellow human beings to friendship
[42:15] to getting out to nature to be
[42:18] interested in the world around because I
[42:21] hear too often young people clever young
[42:24] people saying why should I bother to
[42:26] learn this mathematics AI could do it
[42:28] for me answer all my questions why
[42:30] should I bother doing research into the
[42:33] American Civil War when I can get a
[42:36] brilliant essay that would gain a PhD uh
[42:39] within 30 seconds. These are real
[42:42] problems, Gavin, and the Christian world
[42:46] needs to do a lot of hard thinking as to
[42:51] what the legitimate uses of AI are. I
[42:54] think of the busy pastor late Saturday
[42:58] night, maybe so uh tired that all they
[43:01] could do is watch a late night film, but
[43:03] they've got a sermon for the next day,
[43:05] they can get it in 10 seconds uh from
[43:08] the chat GPT. But what spiritual value
[43:11] will that have? Spiritual authority. I
[43:14] doubt it very much. But that is a huge
[43:18] danger. It is very easy. I've tested it
[43:21] myself to get AI to write a talk on a
[43:25] few verses of scripture and read it out
[43:28] convincingly and nobody bats an eyelid.
[43:31] So there are a lot of dangers and
[43:35] therefore I think the main lesson is
[43:38] this.
[43:40] We need to get back to the days where we
[43:44] spend Christians do to spend time
[43:48] reading scripture prayerfully. Not to
[43:51] get sermons for other people or to
[43:53] answer questions simply but to get to
[43:56] know God. Because the highest privilege
[44:00] in the universe is that God has given us
[44:03] that capacity of God consciousness that
[44:06] we can get to know him. That is the
[44:08] thing that needs to be developed. How
[44:11] much an advanced knowledge and
[44:13] experience of chat GPT will mean in the
[44:16] world to come. Well, I doubt very much.
[44:18] It's getting back to scripture and
[44:22] opening our hearts to God speaking to
[44:25] us. And we'll only do that if we're
[44:27] convinced he can do that through his
[44:30] word. But I believe if we do open our
[44:32] hearts to him, he will do what he
[44:35] promised to do to the disciples in the
[44:38] upper room, he will reveal himself to
[44:40] us. And it's that we need to give us the
[44:43] spiritual authority to combat all these
[44:46] difficulties.
[44:48] >> Final question. I could talk to you. I
[44:50] have so many other questions I would
[44:52] love to ask you as well, but I want to
[44:53] respect your time. And the way you just
[44:55] ended that answer is a wonderful way for
[44:57] us to finish things off here. Because
[44:59] when I think about the anxiety that not
[45:01] just AI but other global events and
[45:03] social breakdown is creating right now,
[45:06] >> it's never felt more important for us to
[45:10] ground our hearts in the hope of the
[45:12] gospel each day. And these problems can
[45:15] seem insurmountable and we can feel
[45:17] overwhelmed. We think, well, what can I
[45:18] do? But
[45:20] >> I find I go into my prayer closet. I
[45:22] look at the scripture and I and I come
[45:24] out and then I can face things from the
[45:26] standpoint of knowing the hope of the
[45:28] gospel. Could you say for people
[45:31] watching this who do feel overwhelmed,
[45:33] what does the message of revelation say
[45:36] to them to meet that need?
[45:41] It's a revelation of Jesus Christ. In
[45:45] other words, when we read it and finish
[45:48] reading it, we should know more about
[45:50] him than we did before.
[45:53] And what it is touching on is
[45:57] what you find throughout scripture that
[45:59] the men and women that really left their
[46:02] mark for God were men and women who in
[46:05] some way or other had seen his glory.
[46:09] And therefore I think prayerfully we
[46:12] should ask God to show us his glory
[46:15] because the attraction of AI and all the
[46:20] rest of it is immensely powerful. It is
[46:23] overwhelming people's senses.
[46:26] And we ought to allow God to fill our
[46:28] minds with something so glorious
[46:31] that we say well with the Apostle Peter
[46:35] when he referred to his conversion and
[46:37] he said I was called by his glory and
[46:41] virtue. That's the thing we need to look
[46:44] for as we read the book of Revelation,
[46:47] that God will open heaven and we see the
[46:50] face of Christ shining as he walks among
[46:54] the churches.
[46:57] >> Wonderful. Uh thank you so much for this
[47:00] book and for the work that you do. I'm
[47:02] I'm sure I speak for many of our viewers
[47:04] when I just express gratitude for the
[47:06] way you've served many of us and helping
[47:08] us think through the gospel and helping
[47:09] us to respond to challenges to the
[47:11] gospel. So, it's really an honor to
[47:13] speak with you. Thank you so much, John.
[47:15] >> Well, it's a pleasure, Gavin, to be with
[47:17] you. And if I might just mention it this
[47:20] week, my autobiography called My Story
[47:25] is published in the United States, and I
[47:29] hope many of my friends there will find
[47:32] it a blessing as it traces my life as a
[47:36] follower of Jesus.
[47:38] >> Wonderful. I'm going to put a link to
[47:39] that book as well in the video
[47:41] description. So, viewers, you can check
[47:44] out both that book and uh John's work on
[47:46] Revelation. So, thanks for watching
[47:48] everybody and we'll see you in the next
[47:50] video.