# Comforting Truths About Human Nature - Alain de Botton (4K)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9V2guHfR5E
Translation: zh-CN

[00:00] Where do you think self-esteem comes from?
  你认为自尊来自哪里？

[00:03] Um gosh, I wish we knew.
  嗯，天哪，我希望我们知道。

[00:07] I mean, I think the the first thing to say is is a bit of a mystery.
  我的意思是，我认为首先要说的是，这是一个谜。

[00:09] If we knew how to bottle this stuff, you know, if you look at the differences between what human beings achieve, it isn't easily explained by intelligence.
  如果我们知道如何把这些东西装起来，你知道，如果你看看人类成就之间的差异，这并不能轻易用智力来解释。

[00:11] Everything shows that that um broadly speaking uh you know intelligence accounts for the smaller portion of the massive differences in achievement and that's gling.
  一切都表明，总的来说，你知道智力只占成就巨大差异的一小部分，而这就是令人沮丧的。

[00:13] Uh it's it it isn't what the school system is really about.
  嗯，这并不是学校系统真正关心的。

[00:16] Um and I think you know a lot of achievement is about imagination and it's about breaking through obstacles to um dreaming of a better world, a more interesting world etc.
  嗯，我认为你知道很多成就都与想象力有关，也与突破障碍有关，以实现……梦想一个更美好的世界，一个更有趣的世界等等。

[00:19] Um self-esteem is somewhere in that story because I think self-esteem is about saying it might happen with me.
  嗯，自尊在这个故事中占有一席之地，因为我认为自尊就是说，这可能会发生在我身上。

[00:21] This thing could be I
  这件事可能是我

[01:03] happen with me. This thing could be I could be in charge of this thing.
  发生在我身上。这件事可能是，我可能负责这件事。

[01:05] could be in charge of this thing whatever it is. And I think class plays a role here.
  负责这件事，无论它是什么。我认为阶级在这里起着作用。

[01:11] Um, one of the great injuries of a workingclass background is that it tends to give you a sense that other people are controlling the world and you have to negotiate the obstacles they put in place, but you don't get to remove those obstacles.
  嗯，工人阶级背景的一个巨大伤害是，它往往会让你觉得别人在控制世界，你必须应对他们设置的障碍，但你却无法清除这些障碍。

[01:23] You just have to work your way around them.
  你只能绕过它们。

[01:27] um typical middle class upbringing, middle class in the UK sense.
  嗯，典型的中产阶级成长经历，英国意义上的中产阶级。

[01:32] Um you know, you you you get imbued with a feeling that human beings like you make the world and that raises your self-esteem.
  嗯，你知道，你你你被灌输了一种感觉，即像你一样的人创造了世界，这会提高你的自尊心。

[01:40] Um, you know, traditionally it's an enormous difference to, you know, if your uncle happens to be, you know, the guy in the civil service who does whatever and or your your slightly annoying second cousin um, you know, works in the treasury or something.
  嗯，你知道，传统上这是一个巨大的区别，你知道，如果你的叔叔碰巧是，你知道，那个在公务员队伍里做任何事的人，或者你稍微有点烦人的表弟，嗯，你知道，在财政部工作什么的。

[01:57] You know, this changes your sense of reality because you think, well, of course, I can do something cuz look at those not that impressive people who I once saw.
  你知道，这改变了你对现实的看法，因为你会想，嗯，当然，我能做点什么，因为看看那些我曾经见过的不那么令人印象深刻的人。

[02:05] That impressive people who I once saw around the kitchen, etc.
  那些给我留下深刻印象的人，我曾在厨房附近见过等等。

[02:08] So, a lot about self-esteem is thinking, how do I stack up next to other people?
  所以，关于自尊的很多想法是，我与其他人相比如何？

[02:14] Um, is the world shaped by gods or broadly speaking by people like you and I?
  嗯，世界是由神塑造的，还是广义上由像你我这样的人塑造的？

[02:19] I know we're in a religious place and you must be seeming godly to the audience, but um but the good thing is you're not.
  我知道我们在一个宗教场所，你必须在观众面前显得神圣，但是，好的一点是你没有。

[02:26] Um, and I think, you know, that's one of the good things about modern technology is that it's helped to show the world that those it because it's given a very granular close-up sense of people in so-called positions of power, authority, etc.
  嗯，我想，你知道，这是现代科技的好处之一，它帮助向世界展示了那些，因为它给了人们一种非常细致的近距离感受，那些所谓的处于权力、权威等职位上的人。

[02:42] And that's helped to kind of imaginatively level the imaginative playing field in a way.
  这在某种程度上帮助了富有想象力地使富有想象力的竞争环境变得公平。

[02:45] So, you feel closer to them.
  所以，你感觉与他们更亲近了。

[02:47] You feel closer to them.
  你感觉与他们更亲近了。

[02:48] You see that, you know, they're humans, too.
  你看，你知道，他们也是人。

[02:51] And that can be inspiring.
  这可以鼓舞人心。

[02:54] There was a an incident that a friend had when recording a podcast which uh I needed a name for and we've come to call it a yogurt lid moment.
  我的一位朋友在录制播客时发生了一件事，我需要给它起个名字，我们称之为“酸奶盖时刻”。

[03:01] So he was sitting down to record with a very famous author and he's idolized this guy
  所以他坐下来要和一个非常著名的作家录制节目，他一直崇拜这位作家

[03:05] famous author and he's idolized this guy for a very long time and you know titan of literature sitting down his camera team are all setting everything up and it's in the guest's house and the guest says would you mind if I went and got a yogurt and he's like it's your house your yogurt please continue.
  著名作家，他崇拜这个家伙很久了，你知道文学巨匠正在放下他的摄像机团队，一切都在布置中，而且是在客人的房子里，客人说，介意我出去拿点酸奶吗？他说，这是你的房子，你的酸奶，请继续。

[03:19] The guest walks away, goes to the fridge and opens it up, gets yogurt out, sits down opposite my friend.
  客人走开，走到冰箱前打开它，拿出酸奶，坐在我朋友对面。

[03:25] Everyone's still pottering around. And my friend sat opposite this guy that he'd revered for decades, you know, just saw as this sort of untouchable demigod,
  大家还在忙碌着。我的朋友坐在他崇敬了几十年的那个人的对面，你知道，把他看作是那种不可触碰的半神，

[03:34] >> watched him look at the yogurt, take the lid off, put it up to his face, and then lick the lid of the yogurt.
  >>看着他看着酸奶，揭开盖子，拿到脸前，然后舔了舔酸奶盖。

[03:43] And he said, "At that moment, the veils fell from my eyes, and I saw him as the fallible human."
  他说：“那一刻，我眼中的面纱脱落了，我看到了他作为一个有缺点的人。”

[03:47] That's and it's that the yogurt lid moment, this sort of weird uh mortal trip.
  那就是那个酸奶盖的时刻，这种奇怪的凡人体验。

[03:53] Think of the way that we're introduced to life really. You know, we start off very small and we're surrounded by very large people who seem to know how to do extraordinary things.
  想想我们是如何真正接触到生活的。你知道，我们开始时非常渺小，周围都是非常高大的人，他们似乎知道如何做非凡的事情。

[04:01] You know, they can um throw a ball over a tree. They can,
  你知道，他们可以把球扔过树。他们可以，

[04:06] um throw a ball over a tree.
  嗯，把球扔过树。

[04:07] They can, you know, they know how to speak a foreign language.
  他们可以，你知道，他们会说一门外语。

[04:08] They can do very complicated math, etc.
  他们可以做非常复杂的数学等等。

[04:10] And we are tiny.
  而我们却很渺小。

[04:13] And it takes such a long time to think actually these gods, these colossi are just human.
  而且需要很长时间才能想到，实际上这些神，这些巨人只是凡人。

[04:16] So you know the the number one sort of class differentiator is is childhood as it were because we all start in this very subordinate class which is the child and we look up to the adult.
  所以你知道，头号的阶级区分因素可以说是童年，因为我们都开始于这个非常从属的阶级，那就是孩子，我们仰视成年人。

[04:28] I mean think of those times when I don't know if you had this but you know you're at school and then it's the weekend and you go to the shops and suddenly you see the French teacher in the aisles of the shop and you think what's that person doing there?
  我的意思是想想那些时候，我不知道你有没有过，但你知道你在学校，然后是周末，你去商店，突然你在商店的过道里看到你的法语老师，你想那个人在那里做什么？

[04:40] you know, there's Mr. Gregory.
  你知道，那是格雷戈里先生。

[04:41] He's he's buying cereal.
  他，他在买麦片。

[04:44] And you think that guy is just, you know, it comes back to your yoga po point.
  你想那家伙只是，你知道，这又回到了你的瑜伽点。

[04:45] It's that guy's human.
  那是那个家伙是凡人。

[04:47] And and we're always catching up with that idea.
  而且我们总是在追赶那个想法。

[04:50] X or Y is human.
  X或Y是凡人。

[04:53] And isn't it interesting that very basic thought is still always a bit of a surprise.
  而且是不是很有趣，这个非常基本的想法仍然总是有点令人惊讶。

[04:56] We're always on the back foot with that insight.
  我们总是对这个见解处于劣势。

[04:59] Why is that related to self esteem?
  为什么这与自尊有关？

[05:01] Why is self esteem not contained
  为什么自尊不包含在内

[05:08] Esteem? Why is self-esteem not contained within our own system?
  自尊？为什么自尊不包含在我们自己的体系内？

[05:09] Within our own system?
  在我们自己的体系内？

[05:11] Well, Chris, because we've got this very unfortunate thing that we know ourselves from the inside and we know other people only from what they choose to tell us.
  嗯，克里斯，因为我们有这样一件非常不幸的事情，我们从内部了解自己，而我们只从别人选择告诉我们的信息来了解别人。

[05:17] And so, we've got this massive imbalance of data.
  所以，我们有了巨大的数据不平衡。

[05:22] And we are so weird to ourselves and so embarrassing and so flawed.
  我们对自己如此奇怪，如此令人尴尬，如此有缺陷。

[05:27] Anyone with a modicum of self-awareness is going to have, if they're honest, should have a slightly hard time tolerating themselves.
  任何有丝毫自我意识的人，如果他们诚实的话，应该会发现很难容忍自己。

[05:34] Cuz the stuff that goes on in our minds.
  因为我们脑子里发生的事情。

[05:37] The stuff that goes on in our minds is, you know, if it was published, I mean, we'd all be, you know, excommunicated immediately.
  我们脑子里发生的事情，你知道，如果被公之于众，我的意思是，我们都会被立即驱逐出教。

[05:46] Um, that's not a sign necessarily that we're so degenerate.
  嗯，这不一定是我们如此堕落的标志。

[05:47] It's just a sign that we we're having still a very hard time admitting what it is to be human at an interpersonal level.
  这只是一个迹象，表明我们仍然很难承认在人际关系层面做人的意义。

[05:58] Um was still despite all these ways we have of sharing data um it's still a sort of surprise I mean you know what it's like in a relationship or a close friendship when you know late at night you're able to go to your new pal
  嗯，尽管我们有所有这些分享数据的方式，但仍然是一种惊喜，我的意思是，你知道在一段关系或亲密的友谊中，你知道深夜你能去你的新伙伴那里

[06:09] Night, you're able to go to your new pal, you're go, you know, do you know, do you.
  晚上，你可以去你的新朋友那里，你去，你知道，你知道，你知道吗？

[06:11] You're go, you know, do you know, do you ever have that thing when and they go.
  你去，你知道，你知道，你知道有没有过那种事，然后他们说。

[06:12] Ever have that thing when and they go, yeah, yeah, that thing and no one's ever.
  有没有过那种事，然后他们说，是的，是的，那件事，而且从来没有人。

[06:14] Yeah, yeah, that thing and no one's ever mentioned it, you know, there's still a.
  是的，是的，那件事，而且从来没有人提起过，你知道，仍然有一个。

[06:16] Mentioned it, you know, there's still a societal silence and then the intimacy.
  提起过，你知道，仍然存在一种社会性的沉默，然后是亲密感。

[06:18] Societal silence and then the intimacy that grows from being able to say we're.
  社会性的沉默，然后是那种能够说出“我们有点……”的亲密感。

[06:20] That grows from being able to say we're a bit weird now, the truth is, we're a bit.
  那种能够说出“我们现在有点奇怪”的亲密感，事实是，我们有点。

[06:23] A bit weird like everybody else, but there.
  像其他人一样有点奇怪，但是。

[06:25] Still um an imbalance of of knowledge um and and a sense, I mean, you know, that.
  仍然存在知识上的不平衡，嗯，还有一种感觉，我的意思是，你知道，那种。

[06:31] And and a sense, I mean, you know, that thing where kids say things like, my.
  还有一种感觉，我的意思是，你知道，那种孩子们会说“我的……”之类的话。

[06:34] Thing where kids say things like, my family's so weird, other people's.
  孩子们会说“我的家人太奇怪了，别人的家人太正常了”之类的话。

[06:36] Family's so weird, other people's families are so normal, you know, I went.
  你知道，我去，

[06:37] Families are so normal, you know, I went to, I went to Billy's family that you.
  我去过比利家，你知道，

[06:39] To, I went to Billy's family that you know, his mom's really normal, why, why are.
  你知道，他妈妈很正常，为什么，为什么你。

[06:41] Know his mom's really normal, why, why are you so weird, and then of course, in time.
  你这么奇怪，然后当然，随着时间的推移。

[06:44] You so weird, and then of course, in time, you realize Billy's family is not normal.
  你太奇怪了，然后当然，随着时间的推移，你意识到比利家并不正常。

[06:45] You realize Billy's family is not normal, you just don't know them, you know, we.
  你意识到比利家并不正常，你只是不了解他们，你知道，我们。

[06:47] You just don't know them, you know, we don't know other people as well as we.
  你只是不了解他们，你知道，我们不像了解自己那样了解别人。

[06:49] Don't know other people as well as we know ourselves, and so we tend to think.
  了解自己，所以我们倾向于认为。

[06:51] Know ourselves, and so we tend to think um that those close to us are a bit more.
  嗯，那些亲近我们的人有点更。

[06:53] Um that those close to us are a bit more mad than anybody else. We go, you know.
  嗯，比任何人都更疯狂。我们说，你知道。

[06:55] Mad than anybody else. We go, you know, my mom's, she's really mad, or my ex are.
  比任何人都更疯狂。我们说，你知道，我妈妈，她真的很疯狂，或者我的前任们很疯狂。

[06:57] My mom's, she's really mad, or my ex are really mad. I mean, this goes on in in.
  我的意思是，这在……

[07:00] Really mad. I mean, this goes on in in uh in uh the dating world, relationship.
  在约会界，人际关系中。

[07:01] Uh in uh the dating world, relationship world, where, you know, men will go.
  你知道，男人会说。

[07:04] World, where, you know, men will go, women so crazy, you know, women are.
  女人太疯狂了，你知道，女人。

[07:07] Women so crazy, you know, women are really crazy. And then, you know, in the.
  女人太疯狂了，你知道，女人真的很疯狂。然后，你知道，在……

[07:09] Really crazy. And then, you know, in the.
  真的很疯狂。然后，你知道，在……

[07:10] Really crazy.
  真疯狂。

[07:12] And then, you know, in the female camp, women are going, "Oh, men just just really, you know."
  然后，你知道，在女性营地里，女人们说，“哦，男人就是，就是真的，你知道。”

[07:13] And you want to go, "Look, guys, it's both.
  你想说，“听着，伙计们，这是两方面都有。

[07:16] It's everybody. It's not men, it's not women, it's not the young, it's not the oldest, it's everybody close up.
  是所有人。不是男人，不是女人，不是年轻人，不是老年人，是所有人近距离接触。

[07:22] It's just that we often have the privilege of not knowing people close up enough and therefore we still retain illusions.
  只是我们常常有不近距离了解他人的特权，因此我们仍然保留着幻想。

[07:27] You get this in travel, right?
  你在旅行中也会遇到这种情况，对吧？

[07:29] People go, "Oh, the Greeks, well, they're really they're better than us.
  人们说，“哦，希腊人，嗯，他们真的比我们好。

[07:35] You know, we're we've got all these flaws or the Americans, they have a certain whatever."
  你知道，我们有所有这些缺点，或者美国人，他们有某种程度的 whatever。”

[07:38] And then, of course, once you're inside that society, you go, "Nah, it's the same everywhere."
  然后，当然，一旦你身处那个社会，你就会说，“不，到处都一样。”

[07:43] But anyway, we we've got to have illusions and bless us.
  但总之，我们必须要有幻想，愿我们得到祝福。

[07:47] So the closer that people get to you, the more you see their flaws, but unfortunately no one is ever going to be as close to you as you are.
  所以人们离你越近，你就越看到他们的缺点，但不幸的是，没有人会像你一样接近你。

[07:53] And you have this huge asymmetry, a million to one of the bit rate of data that you're able to see of yourself.
  你有一个巨大的不对称性，是你能够看到的关于自己的数据的百万分之一。

[07:58] And the vacasillations, the self-doubt as you pingpong back and forth.
  还有那些摇摆不定，自我怀疑，你来回地徘徊。

[08:02] Should I go? I don't know if I should go and buy that.
  我应该去吗？我不知道我是否应该去买那个。

[08:05] I don't know if I should get that pair of shoes.
  我不知道我是否应该买那双鞋。

[08:06] I should get that pair.
  我应该买那双。

[08:07] I'm not going to get that pair of shoes.
  我不打算买那双鞋了。

[08:08] No, I might do.
  不，我可能会买。

[08:08] And you go to sleep and you think, I I spent last night staying
  然后你睡觉，你想，我昨晚花了时间待着

[08:11] You think, I I spent last night staying awake wondering about whether or not I was going to buy a pair of shoes.
  你认为，我我昨晚彻夜未眠，想知道我是否要买一双鞋。

[08:13] I'm insane.
  我疯了。

[08:16] I mean, I must be committed not knowing that that is the sort of thought that even you wouldn't tell your spouse.
  我的意思是，我一定是疯了，不知道那是连你都不会告诉配偶的那种想法。

[08:20] I I didn't sleep well last night.
  我我昨晚没睡好。

[08:23] Why? I was thinking about this pair of shoe.
  为什么？我在想这双鞋。

[08:26] You It's so mundane and boring that you don't even share that sort of thing.
  你它太平凡乏味了，你甚至都不分享那种东西。

[08:28] The other thing is from the inside, it's very hard to know who you are.
  另一件事是从内部来说，很难知道你是谁。

[08:32] And one of the interesting things is how people go a bit mad when they spent too long alone.
  有趣的一件事是人们在独自一人待太久时会变得有点疯狂。

[08:37] If you spend a long time alone, you sort of you don't know certain thoughts go a little too far.
  如果你独自一人待很长时间，你就会不知道某些想法会走得太远。

[08:42] And one of the great things about company, you know, why do we need other people?
  而陪伴的一个好处是，你知道，为什么我们需要别人？

[08:48] Just to be able to kind of hold us slightly in check in small ways and large, they they kind of go, no, that thought is getting a little too extreme, whatever.
  只是为了能够以大小方式稍微约束我们，他们他们会说，不，这个想法有点太极端了，不管怎样。

[08:55] They they they define us.
  他们他们定义了我们。

[08:58] Um but also the other thing that people help us to do other people is give us a compact sense of who we are that eludes us.
  嗯，但另一方面，别人帮助我们做的另一件事是给我们一个我们无法把握的关于我们是谁的简洁的认识。

[09:07] So I see you and I go there's Chris.
  所以我看到你，我说那是克里斯。

[09:09] Now when you're alone you don't think you're Chris.
  现在当你独自一人时，你不会认为你是克里斯。

[09:11] You just think
  你只觉得

[09:11] Don't think you're Chris.
  不要认为你是克里斯。

[09:11] You just think I'm consciousness in the universe.
  你只认为我是宇宙意识。

[09:13] I'm consciousness in the universe.
  我是宇宙意识。

[09:13] I'm just you know I'm just a giant net that's capturing thoughts and impressions.
  我只是你知道的，我只是一个巨大的网络，捕捉着思想和印象。

[09:16] You don't know that you have a name, a beginning, a middle or an end etc.
  你不知道自己有一个名字，一个开端，一个中间或一个结尾等等。

[09:22] And when we're in company, people go, "Oh, you're that guy who does this or you know, you've so other people's caricaturured vision of us is actually quite helpful to us because you think, oh, you know, I'm I'm that relatively simple soul that unifies us, gives us a sense of story."
  当我们在一起时，人们会说，“哦，你就是那个做这个的人，或者你知道，别人对你的漫画式看法实际上对我们很有帮助，因为你会想，哦，你知道，我就是那个统一我们、给我们一种故事感的相对简单的灵魂。”

[09:38] Yeah.
  是的。

[09:38] And also because, you know, if I look at you, you look unified.
  而且也因为，你知道，如果我看着你，你看起来是统一的。

[09:42] You got two eyes, a nose, a mouth.
  你有两只眼睛，一个鼻子，一张嘴。

[09:43] You know, you're relatively compact, etc.
  你知道，你相对紧凑等等。

[09:45] But inside you, you don't feel any of that.
  但在你里面，你感觉不到任何那种感觉。

[09:48] It's it's a it's a vast shapeless landscape.
  它是一个广阔的无形景观。

[09:52] Is this uh is self-esteem related to imposter syndrome?
  这是呃，自尊与冒名顶替综合症有关吗？

[09:56] I I think imposter syndrome was already something that I was seeing a lot of and now I'm seeing more about increasingly this sense that the world expects something of me that maybe I've even actually done previously, but I'm scared about whether
  我认为冒名顶替综合症已经是我看到很多的事情了，现在我越来越多地看到这种感觉，即世界对我有所期望，而我可能甚至以前已经做过，但我害怕是否

[10:13] Previously, but I'm scared about whether or not I'm going to be able to deliver or not I'm going to be able to deliver it.
  之前，但我担心我是否能够交付，或者我是否能够交付它。

[10:16] Look, I think it's I know imposter syndrome causes people problems, but um I'm reassured if somebody suffers from imposter syndrome.
  看，我认为我知道冒名顶替综合症会给人们带来问题，但如果有人患有冒名顶替综合症，我会感到欣慰。

[10:22] It's a sign of honesty. It's a sign of self-awareness.
  这是诚实的标志。这是自我意识的标志。

[10:27] Of course, it has its extreme versions which you know causes people a lot of pain.
  当然，它有极端的形式，你知道这会给人们带来很多痛苦。

[10:31] But if someone is aware that they might be a charlatan or might be pulling off a confidence trick, that's honesty.
  但如果一个人意识到自己可能是个骗子，或者可能在搞骗局，那就是诚实。

[10:39] That's great. That's a that's a starting point.
  太好了。这是一个起点。

[10:41] You know, it's just like somebody who knows they might be evil is a good person.
  你知道，这就像一个知道自己可能是邪恶的人是一个好人。

[10:44] You know, evil people don't worry they might be evil.
  你知道，邪恶的人不会担心自己可能是邪恶的。

[10:46] So, it's, you know, you're likely to be authentic and genuine if sometimes you think, am I a fake?
  所以，你知道，如果你有时会想“我是个假货吗？”，你很可能是真实和真诚的。

[10:52] That's a good sign. It's a good starting point in the same way as identifying that you're a bad driver is a good starting point for not driving fast.
  这是一个好迹象。这是一个好的起点，就像认识到自己是个糟糕的司机是避免开快车的一个好的起点一样。

[10:59] But it doesn't necessarily make you better on the roads.
  但这并不一定会让你在道路上表现得更好。

[11:00] So, where do we go to? Where is becoming a better driver?
  那么，我们该怎么办？如何成为一名更好的司机？

[11:06] Okay, my imposter syndrome. Thank you, Alan.
  好的，我的冒名顶替综合症。谢谢你，艾伦。

[11:08] You've told me that I'm not so up my own ass that I can't see my own flaws.
  你告诉我，我并没有那么自以为是，以至于看不到自己的缺点。

[11:10] Hooray.
  万岁。

[11:14] Flaws. Hooray.
  缺点。太棒了。

[11:16] What about starting to work through that?
  开始着手处理那件事怎么样？

[11:17] What about starting to get a better sense of our own capacities and capabilities?
  开始更好地了解我们自己的能力和才干怎么样？

[11:20] Look, a lot of it is bouncing against the world and testing yourself against reality.
  你看，很多时候就是与世界碰撞，用现实来考验自己。

[11:25] It's very hard to know your talents until you've had a go at something.
  在尝试做某事之前，很难知道自己的才能。

[11:29] And I think we all have this sense sometimes that some things come more easily to us than to others.
  我想我们有时都有一种感觉，有些事情对我们来说比对别人更容易。

[11:33] You know, I don't know how great tennis players start, but they must have a sense, oo, I was able to hit that ball and that that worked quite well.
  你知道，我不知道伟大的网球运动员是怎么开始的，但他们一定有一种感觉，哦，我能打到那个球，而且效果相当不错。

[11:40] Or a great writer is able to think, I was able to pull off quite a nice little sentence there.
  或者一个伟大的作家能够想到，我写出了一个相当不错的小句子。

[11:45] And that's the beginning of a kind of growing confidence.
  这就是逐渐建立自信的开始。

[11:49] And you you know, you need a you need that kind of start.
  而且你知道，你需要，你需要那种开始。

[11:51] And you know, I think a good life doesn't require you to do everything.
  而且你知道，我认为美好的生活不需要你做所有的事情。

[11:58] it it requires you to do the things that you feel you're capable of and that you're especially good at.
  它要求你做你认为自己有能力并且特别擅长的事情。

[12:07] Um it's no humiliation for me that I can't play tennis for example if somebody goes you know you're terrible because there's I don't sense a talent but I do sense
  嗯，对我来说，我不会打网球，这没什么丢人的，比如如果有人说你知道你很糟糕，因为我感觉不到这方面的天赋，但我确实感觉到

[12:16] I don't sense a talent but I do sense talent in that tiny area of assembling words.
  我感觉不到天赋，但我确实感觉到在组词这个微小领域的天赋。

[12:20] Words, that's the area that you know, but maths I can't do.
  组词，那是你了解的领域，但数学我做不好。

[12:23] Um, you know, architecture I can't really do, etc.
  嗯，你知道，建筑我真的做不好，等等。

[12:25] So many things I can't do, so it's about finding those little sweet spots.
  很多事情我做不好，所以关键在于找到那些微小的优势领域。

[12:31] And one of the great puzzles in life is how do people find their vocation?
  人生中一个巨大的谜题是，人们如何找到自己的职业？

[12:36] How do will find their core identity, their talents?
  如何找到自己的核心身份，自己的才能？

[12:40] And I sometimes think of it as it's like you're passing a metal detector over the ground.
  我有时觉得，这就像你在地面上用金属探测器扫描一样。

[12:43] And very occasionally something will let off a little beep, a beep of intensity, of interest, of heightened thoughtfulness.
  偶尔会有东西发出微弱的哔哔声，一种强度、兴趣、高度思考的哔哔声。

[12:50] And you think, there's a fragment here below the ground of my true self.
  然后你会想，这片土地下隐藏着我真实自我的碎片。

[12:53] Now, my true self was shattered or it it came in disassembled form.
  现在，我真实的自我破碎了，或者是以一种拆解的形式出现的。

[12:58] It's buried. It's scattered over a vast area.
  它被埋藏了，散落在广阔的区域。

[13:00] And the task of life is to recreate it from hints.
  而生命的任务就是从线索中重塑它。

[13:06] And I think that you know one of the great challenges I mean I think one of the big big challenges.
  我想，你知道，一个巨大的挑战，我的意思是，我认为一个非常非常大的挑战。

[13:08] And it happens to every young person is what should I do with my life?
  这种情况发生在每个年轻人身上，那就是“我应该做什么？”

[13:11] It's it's one of it's one of these central questions of philosophy in a way.
  这在某种程度上是哲学中的一个核心问题。

[13:16] Central questions of philosophy in a way because unless you're a very rare person.
  这是哲学的一些核心问题，因为除非你是一个非常罕见的人。

[13:19] Because unless you're a very rare person you will have to assemble a vision of your future.
  因为除非你是一个非常罕见的人，否则你将不得不为你自己的未来构建一个愿景。

[13:22] It's not going to come readymade and there won't be a voice from the sky going you know you are an accountant or you are a downhill skier.
  它不会是现成的，也不会有来自天空的声音告诉你，你是一名会计师或一名高山滑雪者。

[13:26] It's going to be something you have to assemble and you'll assemble it in bits.
  它将是你必须自己构建的东西，并且你会一点一点地构建它。

[13:30] You'll you'll have to recreate the the the original statue of you that was shattered a long time ago and that lies across a vast area.
  你将不得不重新创造那个很久以前被粉碎的、散落在广阔区域的你最初的形象。

[13:39] So like an archaeologist of the self, you have to build that up and and you have to build it up out of those little beeps of interest.
  所以，就像一个自我考古学家一样，你必须把它建立起来，并且你必须从那些微小的兴趣点中把它建立起来。

[13:50] Interest.
  兴趣。

[13:51] And I think a good thing there is envy.
  而且我认为嫉妒是一个很好的东西。

[13:54] People speak very very low and embarrassed way about envy.
  人们以一种非常低沉和尴尬的方式谈论嫉妒。

[13:56] You know, you're not supposed to feel envious.
  你知道，你不应该感到嫉妒。

[13:58] I think very often when you feel a beep of envy, it's because there's a fragment of your true ambition and your true self in the life of another person.
  我认为，当你感到一丝嫉妒时，这通常是因为在另一个人生活中，有你真实抱负和真实自我的碎片。

[14:07] And rather than go, "Oh, I must run away from it."
  与其说：“哦，我必须逃避它。”

[14:09] Go, "No, this is a clue. What is there that you are envious of?"
  不如说：“不，这是一个线索。你嫉妒的是什么？”

[14:13] And often envy is a very inaccurate emotion.
  而且，嫉妒往往是一种非常不准确的情感。

[14:16] We envy
  我们嫉妒

[14:19] is a very inaccurate emotion.
  是一种非常不准确的情绪。

[14:21] We envy the whole of someone when actually it tends to be a part of them that we want.
  我们羡慕的是某人的全部，但实际上我们想要的是他们的一部分。

[14:24] And so we go, I'm envious of that singer, actor, business person, etc.
  所以我们说，我羡慕那位歌手、演员、商人等等。

[14:26] You want to go, hang on, hang on.
  你想说，等等，等等。

[14:30] It's it won't be the whole thing.
  它不会是全部。

[14:33] Drill into it.
  深入探究一下。

[14:35] What what really is core here?
  这里真正核心的是什么？

[14:37] And you might realize it's actually not their fame, their money.
  你可能会意识到，实际上不是他们的名声，不是他们的金钱。

[14:38] It's that they work with their hands or it's that they, you know, um live in a log cabin somewhere far away from other people or whatever it is.
  是他们用双手工作，或者他们，你知道，嗯，住在远离他人的某个地方的小木屋里，或者别的什么。

[14:44] So the best thing to do with envy is to see it as a guide for your own ambition, not a sign of your innate jealousy and inadequacy.
  所以，处理嫉妒的最好方法是将其视为你自身抱负的指南，而不是你天生嫉妒和不足的标志。

[14:49] M.
  嗯。

[14:52] It's a clue.
  这是一个线索。

[14:54] >> I always think about envy as the only one of the seven deadly sins that doesn't feel good.
  >> 我一直认为嫉妒是七宗罪中唯一一种感觉不好的罪。

[14:58] >> Remind me of the other seven deadly sins.
  >> 提醒我一下其他的七宗罪。

[15:00] Gluttony.
  暴食。

[15:01] >> Gluttony.
  >> 暴食。

[15:02] Sloth.
  懒惰。

[15:06] Sloth doesn't feel good.
  懒惰感觉不好。

[15:07] >> You don't think sloth feels good?
  >> 你不认为懒惰感觉不好吗？

[15:08] Have you not spent a good Sunday afternoon watching some horrible TV show?
  你没有度过一个美好的周日下午看一些糟糕的电视节目吗？

[15:12] >> Think of the self disgust that sloth often brings, right?
  >> 想想懒惰常常带来的自我厌恶，对吧？

[15:14] You know, you're lying on the sofa and you know that your your you know, you're scrolling Instagram and you know that your better
  你知道，你躺在沙发上，你知道你在浏览Instagram，你知道你更好的

[15:21] Instagram and you know that your better self is being eroded.
  Instagram，你知道你更好的自我正在被侵蚀。

[15:23] Self is being eroded.
  自我正在被侵蚀。

[15:23] And so there's guilty sloth, right?
  所以有罪恶的懒惰，对吧？

[15:26] And so there's guilty sloth, right?
  所以有罪恶的懒惰，对吧？

[15:26] Good sloth and guilty sloth.
  好的懒惰和罪恶的懒惰。

[15:27] Good sloth and guilty sloth.
  好的懒惰和罪恶的懒惰。

[15:27] Yeah.
  是的。

[15:27] Yeah.
  是的。

[15:27] Yeah. Interesting.
  是的。有意思。

[15:29] Yeah. Interesting.
  是的。有意思。

[15:29] You've probably heard me talk about element before.
  你可能听我说过元素之前。

[15:30] You've probably heard me talk about element before.
  你可能听我说过元素之前。

[15:30] Come on.
  来吧。

[15:32] Element is.
  元素是。

[15:32] Frankly, that's because I'm dependent on it.
  坦白说，那是因为我依赖它。

[15:34] Frankly, that's because I'm dependent on it.
  坦白说，那是因为我依赖它。

[15:34] And it's how I've started every morning for the last 3 years.
  这也是我过去三年每天早晨的开始方式。

[15:36] It and it's how I've started every morning for the last 3 years.
  它，这也是我过去三年每天早晨的开始方式。

[15:36] Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't eat.
  元素是一种美味的电解质饮料，混合了您需要的一切，以及您不需要的一切。

[15:38] Morning for the last 3 years. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mixed with.
  过去三年早晨。元素是一种美味的电解质饮料，混合了。

[15:40] A tasty electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't eat.
  一种美味的电解质饮料，混合了您需要的一切，以及您不需要的一切。

[15:41] Everything that you need and nothing that you don't eat. Grabandgo stick pack contains a sciencebacked electrolyte.
  您需要的一切，以及您不需要的一切。即食棒状包装含有科学支持的电解质。

[15:44] Grabandgo stick pack contains a sciencebacked electrolyte.
  即食棒状包装含有科学支持的电解质。

[15:45] Contains a sciencebacked electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients or any other junk.
  含有钠、钾和镁的科学支持的电解质比例，不含糖、不含色素、不含人工成分或任何其他垃圾。

[15:47] Ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients or any other junk.
  钠、钾和镁的比例，不含糖、不含色素、不含人工成分或任何其他垃圾。

[15:49] Magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients or any other junk.
  镁，不含糖、不含色素、不含人工成分或任何其他垃圾。

[15:51] Artificial ingredients or any other junk. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings.
  人工成分或任何其他垃圾。它在减少肌肉痉挛和疲劳方面起着至关重要的作用，同时优化大脑健康、调节食欲和抑制食欲。

[15:53] Junk. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings.
  垃圾。它在减少肌肉痉挛和疲劳方面起着至关重要的作用，同时优化大脑健康、调节食欲和抑制食欲。

[15:54] Reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings.
  减少肌肉痉挛和疲劳，同时优化大脑健康、调节食欲和抑制食欲。

[15:56] Optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings. The orange flavor Uh-huh. in a cold glass of water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar.
  优化大脑健康、调节食欲和抑制食欲。橙子味，嗯哼。一杯冰水就像甜咸的橙味花蜜。

[15:58] Appetite, and curbing cravings. The orange flavor Uh-huh. in a cold glass of water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar.
  食欲，和抑制食欲。橙子味，嗯哼。一杯冰水就像甜咸的橙味花蜜。

[16:01] Orange flavor Uh-huh. in a cold glass of water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar.
  橙子味，嗯哼。一杯冰水就像甜咸的橙味花蜜。

[16:05] Water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar.
  水就像甜咸的橙味花蜜。

[16:07] Nectar and I genuinely feel the difference versus when I've started it and when I've used it and when I haven't.
  花蜜，我真的能感觉到区别，与我开始使用它、使用它和不使用它的时候相比。

[16:10] And I genuinely feel the difference versus when I've started it and when I've used it and when I haven't.
  我真的能感觉到区别，与我开始使用它、使用它和不使用它的时候相比。

[16:11] Versus when I've started it and when I've used it and when I haven't.
  与我开始使用它、使用它和不使用它的时候相比。

[16:16] Anyway, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration.
  总之，他们有一个无条件退款政策，期限不限。

[16:17] Anyway, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration.
  总之，他们有一个无条件退款政策，期限不限。

[16:18] Refund policy with an unlimited duration. So, you can buy it and try it for as long as you want.
  期限不限的退款政策。所以，你可以买下它，并随意尝试。

[16:20] Duration. So, you can buy it and try it for as long as you want.
  期限。所以，你可以买下它，并随意尝试。

[16:20] And if you
  如果你

[16:21] for as long as you want.
  只要你愿意。

[16:22] And if you don't like it for any reason, they will give you your money back and you don't even need to return the box.
  如果你因为任何原因不喜欢它，他们会退还你的钱，而且你甚至不需要退回盒子。

[16:25] That's how confident they are that you'll love it.
  这就是他们对你会喜欢它的信心所在。

[16:26] Plus, they offer free shipping in the US.
  此外，他们在美国提供免费送货。

[16:28] And right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below by heading to drinklnt.com/modern wisdom.
  现在，你可以在首次购买时，通过访问描述中的链接，访问drinklnt.com/modern wisdom，获得Element最受欢迎口味的免费样品包。

[16:42] The imposter syndrome thing, I think, when it gets turned up too high, especially with low self-esteem, can turn into this sort of very loud critical inner voice, this sort of self-hatred thing.
  冒名顶替综合症，我认为，当它被放大到太高的时候，尤其是在低自尊的情况下，可能会变成一种非常响亮的批评性的内心声音，一种自我憎恨的东西。

[16:57] Um, I wonder whether there's better ways given that we're already quite critical of ourselves.
  嗯，我想知道是否有更好的方法，考虑到我们已经对自己相当挑剔了。

[17:00] Everybody is.
  每个人都是。

[17:02] >> How do you come to think about handling external critic?
  >> 你是如何看待处理外部批评的？

[17:03] You're an adult now.
  你现在是个成年人了。

[17:05] You're a big boy.
  你是个大男孩了。

[17:08] Maybe this is in your professional life.
  也许这在你的职业生涯中。

[17:09] Maybe it's a personal comment on the way that you showed up at dinner.
  也许是对你晚餐时表现方式的个人评论。

[17:11] Maybe it's And yet, at least in my experience, there are very few people who are psychologically healthy and still able to cope with criticism about
  也许是这样。然而，至少根据我的经验，很少有人在心理健康的同时还能应对批评。

[17:22] still able to cope with criticism about something they care about something they care about in a way that doesn't really hurt.
  仍然能够以一种不真正伤害的方式来应对他们关心的事物的批评。

[17:26] So, in a way that doesn't really hurt. So, how do you think about dealing with criticism?
  所以，以一种不真正伤害的方式。那么，你认为如何处理批评呢？

[17:29] Look, I think one of the most calling things is criticism when it's warranted, when you have actually made a mistake.
  看，我认为最值得称道的事情之一是当批评是正当时，当你真的犯了错误的时候。

[17:34] And you know, one of the most awful things about being human is that you're constantly hurting others.
  而且你知道，作为人类最糟糕的事情之一就是你一直在伤害别人。

[17:38] you know, we are constantly hurting others in small ways and large.
  你知道，我们一直在以各种方式伤害别人。

[17:42] Um, often through stupidity, exhaustion, narrow-mindedness, etc.
  嗯，通常是由于愚蠢、疲惫、狭隘等等。

[17:46] Um, and then if we're moral people, and most of us are, it then hurts.
  嗯，然后如果我们是道德的人，我们大多数人都是，那么它就会受伤。

[17:50] It hurts that we have hurt someone.
  我们伤害了别人，这让人感到痛苦。

[17:53] Um, how do we move on from that? How do we not, you know, sink into a hole?
  嗯，我们如何从中走出来？我们如何不，你知道，陷入困境？

[17:57] How can we live to see another day? We need to forgive ourselves for the sake of ourselves and and those who depend on us.
  我们如何能活到明天？为了我们自己以及那些依赖我们的人，我们需要原谅自己。

[18:07] Um and this is where broadly speaking friendship comes in.
  嗯，这也就是广义上的友谊的用武之地。

[18:09] You know we need trusted others um in whom we can confide and we're sitting in this religious space.
  你知道我们需要可以倾诉的值得信赖的人，我们正坐在这样一个宗教场所。

[18:15] Confession has a long history.
  忏悔有着悠久的历史。

[18:17] Um we need to be able to
  嗯，我们需要能够

[18:22] long history.
  悠久的历史。

[18:27] Um we need to be able to confess uh to a loving audience that can confess uh to a loving audience that can that can say I know that you have done bad but your heart is good you know and
  嗯，我们需要能够向一个充满爱的观众忏悔，他们能够说我知道你做过坏事，但你的心是好的，你知道吗，而且

[18:34] and that's a complex maneuver of the mind
  那是思维的一种复杂操作

[18:37] mind >> and also something difficult to do in solitude or solo the other people
  头脑>>而且在独处或独自一人时也很难做到，其他人

[18:41] solitude or solo the other people >> we can't do it solo we can't do it solo
  独处或独自一人时，其他人>>我们无法独自完成，我们无法独自完成

[18:43] we can't do it solo we can't do it solo I I think this is you know one of the reasons why solitude is very challenging
  我们无法独自完成，我们无法独自完成。我想这就是为什么独处非常有挑战性

[18:49] reasons why solitude is very challenging because we simply cannot bring to ourselves the the self-compassion um that that we need to to keep going.
  原因，因为我们根本无法给自己带来我们需要的自我同情，才能继续前进。

[18:57] Um and you know we we are social creatures.
  嗯，你知道，我们是社会性生物。

[19:00] Um if we began well in childhood, someone will have looked at us through the eyes of love.
  如果我们小时候开端良好，有人会用充满爱的目光看着我们。

[19:07] And to look at someone through the eyes of love is to see that though they may have done ill, they mean well.
  用充满爱的目光看一个人，就是看到即使他们做过坏事，他们本意是好的。

[19:13] And it's it sounds simple, but it's you know all of all of life is in there.
  听起来很简单，但你知道，生命中的一切都在其中。

[19:17] And of course then to be able to pull off that maneuver for other people.
  当然，然后能够为其他人完成这种操作。

[19:19] Um I mean you know it's no coincidence
  嗯，我的意思是，你知道，这并非巧合

[19:22] Um I mean you know it's no coincidence that the great religions all circle that the great religions all circle this.
  嗯，我的意思是，你知道，伟大的宗教都围绕着这一点并非巧合，伟大的宗教都围绕着这一点。

[19:27] They all circle this business of this.
  它们都围绕着这一点。

[19:27] They all circle this business of confession, forgiveness, charity to others.
  它们都围绕着忏悔、宽恕、对他人的慈善。

[19:30] I don't mean financial charity though you know has a role but it's really charity of spirit.
  我不是指经济上的慈善，尽管你知道它有作用，但它真的是精神上的慈善。

[19:34] Um it's obvious it's something we desperately need are very bad at and yet um without it society soon gums up.
  嗯，很明显，这是我们迫切需要但却非常不擅长的事情，然而，没有它，社会很快就会停滞不前。

[19:42] We can't go on >> and we can't provide it to ourselves which is why it's so important you need to be told that it's important for you to do it to other people because there's this odd sort of uh um co- philanthropy that's occurring.
  我们无法继续下去，也无法为自己提供它，这就是为什么它如此重要，你需要被告知，对他人这样做对你很重要，因为有一种奇怪的互助慈善正在发生。

[19:56] I am going to pay into the pot and you are going to pay into the pot and everybody is going to withdraw from the pot.
  我要往这个大锅里投钱，你也要往这个大锅里投钱，每个人都要从这个大锅里取钱。

[20:03] It's this sort of uh the the council tax I suppose of uh of human goodness.
  这就像是，我猜，人类善良的市政税。

[20:07] Yeah, that's beautiful.
  是的，这很美。

[20:11] And you know [clears throat] many of us are lonely.
  而且你知道，我们很多人都很孤独。

[20:13] I mean this is one of the great secrets of of life that we don't have enough of these people.
  我的意思是，这是生活中一个伟大的秘密，我们没有足够多这样的人。

[20:16] We we're surrounded by people but how many of how many of those are really the people who in the middle
  我们周围都是人，但有多少人，有多少人是真正中间那些人

[20:22] are really the people who in the middle of the night at crisis moment is going

[20:24] of the night at crisis moment is going to be able to deliver that kind of

[20:27] to be able to deliver that kind of broadly we could call it reassurance

[20:29] broadly we could call it reassurance uh a confessional ear um and a sense of

[20:35] uh a confessional ear um and a sense of that we are worthy of forgiveness. Do

[20:37] that we are worthy of forgiveness. Do you think this is a challenge that

[20:38] you think this is a challenge that particularly men face? This having

[20:41] particularly men face? This having someone that is a sympathetic ear, the

[20:44] someone that is a sympathetic ear, the the troubles of being tied up in your

[20:46] the troubles of being tied up in your fragile male ego, etc. Uh male

[20:49] fragile male ego, etc. Uh male friendships and male support seems to be

[20:52] friendships and male support seems to be a tough thing, tough needle to thread.

[20:54] a tough thing, tough needle to thread. It's a really tough needle to thread. I

[20:57] It's a really tough needle to thread. I think that um being a man comes with all

[20:59] think that um being a man comes with all sorts of challenges, but one of them is

[21:01] sorts of challenges, but one of them is that masculinity is presented as a kind

[21:04] that masculinity is presented as a kind of achievement. Um, you know how boys

[21:07] of achievement. Um, you know how boys taunt each other in the school

[21:08] taunt each other in the school playground and they'll go, "You're a

[21:10] playground and they'll go, "You're a girl." Uh, as though there's a kind of

[21:13] girl." Uh, as though there's a kind of slippery slope. The top of the slope is

[21:15] slippery slope. The top of the slope is manhood and then the bottom is girlhood.

[21:18] manhood and then the bottom is girlhood. And if you're not careful, you'll become

[21:19] And if you're not careful, you'll become a girl again as it were that there's a

[21:22] a girl again as it were that there's a sort of sense of when you were a baby

[21:24] sort of sense of when you were a baby and that's the other taunt, baby. When

[21:26] and that's the other taunt, baby. When you were a baby, you were in the

[21:27] you were a baby, you were in the feminine camp and then through effort

[21:30] feminine camp and then through effort you became a man. But that achievement

[21:32] you became a man. But that achievement is precarious. So men are always feeling

[21:35] is precarious. So men are always feeling the procarity of their identity. Um and

[21:39] the procarity of their identity. Um and that's a very unstable uh uh business.

[21:43] that's a very unstable uh uh business. Look, I think the best men um are those

[21:47] Look, I think the best men um are those who've been broken um by life and have

[21:50] who've been broken um by life and have pulled through um have come out the

[21:52] pulled through um have come out the other end. Why? Because they've been

[21:55] other end. Why? Because they've been forced by circumstances to drop the

[21:59] forced by circumstances to drop the illusion of their strength and power.

[22:00] illusion of their strength and power. they they've known that they couldn't

[22:03] they they've known that they couldn't keep that going. Um they've hit rock

[22:06] keep that going. Um they've hit rock bottom and they've had to reach out and

[22:07] bottom and they've had to reach out and say I can't cope. Um I I am in infantile

[22:12] say I can't cope. Um I I am in infantile position, you know, help me. Um that I

[22:15] position, you know, help me. Um that I mean men become rather glorious when

[22:17] mean men become rather glorious when that's happened to them. Um because

[22:20] that's happened to them. Um because that's when there's true humanity,

[22:22] that's when there's true humanity, sympathy, etc. But some men they never

[22:25] sympathy, etc. But some men they never get there. You know, it's it's posture,

[22:26] get there. You know, it's it's posture, posture, posture. It's, you know,

[22:28] posture, posture. It's, you know, defensive posture all the way. Um, so

[22:31] defensive posture all the way. Um, so and I I can spot them a mile away. Uh,

[22:34] and I I can spot them a mile away. Uh, the men who've been broken.

[22:35] the men who've been broken. >> How do you What do they look like?

[22:39] >> It's not really You You just sense that

[22:41] >> It's not really You You just sense that there's um a modesty deep down there's a

[22:44] there's um a modesty deep down there's a modesty and you just feel I think people

[22:48] modesty and you just feel I think people give off

[22:50] give off I often notice it a sense of how much

[22:52] I often notice it a sense of how much you could tell them and how much they'd

[22:54] you could tell them and how much they'd be able to bear. Um, often it's picked

[22:57] be able to bear. Um, often it's picked up in little things. You know, people

[22:59] up in little things. You know, people say, "How was your weekend? Was it

[23:00] say, "How was your weekend? Was it great? Was it good?"

[23:02] great? Was it good?" >> You go, "Oh, wow. That person really

[23:04] >> You go, "Oh, wow. That person really needs my weekend to have gone well." Cuz

[23:05] needs my weekend to have gone well." Cuz they don't have much space. My weekend

[23:07] they don't have much space. My weekend to have gone badly.

[23:08] to have gone badly. >> Someone goes, "How was your weekend?"

[23:11] >> Someone goes, "How was your weekend?" There's space in that. There's space in

[23:13] There's space in that. There's space in that. You feel the space. They're like,

[23:14] that. You feel the space. They're like, "Oh, I might have been crying on the

[23:15] "Oh, I might have been crying on the bathroom floor. That that could happen.

[23:17] bathroom floor. That that could happen. I might have wanted to take my life on

[23:18] I might have wanted to take my life on Saturday, but Sunday things cheered up."

[23:20] Saturday, but Sunday things cheered up." You know, there's room for the extremity

[23:23] You know, there's room for the extremity of what it is to be human. And those are

[23:25] of what it is to be human. And those are the people you want to watch out for,

[23:27] the people you want to watch out for, you know.

[23:29] you know. >> [snorts]

[23:30] >> [snorts] >> I read an article uh a couple of weeks

[23:33] >> I read an article uh a couple of weeks ago uh talking about how lots of men say

[23:37] ago uh talking about how lots of men say uh there needs to be more room for men

[23:38] uh there needs to be more room for men to open up about their emotions. We

[23:40] to open up about their emotions. We should have that in the real world. And

[23:42] should have that in the real world. And when the rubber meets the road

[23:43] when the rubber meets the road personally for them, a lot of the time

[23:46] personally for them, a lot of the time guys still struggle to receive weakness

[23:49] guys still struggle to receive weakness and vulnerability from other men. So

[23:50] and vulnerability from other men. So they're saying I want the world to be

[23:53] they're saying I want the world to be able to accept my vulnerability whilst

[23:56] able to accept my vulnerability whilst not really being that comfortable with

[23:57] not really being that comfortable with accepting it from other people myself.

[24:00] accepting it from other people myself. And um I don't think that there's many

[24:02] And um I don't think that there's many asymmetries and women have got it bad in

[24:03] asymmetries and women have got it bad in some ways and men have got it bad in

[24:04] some ways and men have got it bad in others but I think this is a particular

[24:06] others but I think this is a particular asymmetry that men deal with more that I

[24:08] asymmetry that men deal with more that I think women are good at doing the

[24:10] think women are good at doing the nurturing thing especially to other

[24:12] nurturing thing especially to other women. I think that men are bad at doing

[24:14] women. I think that men are bad at doing the nurturing thing generally,

[24:15] the nurturing thing generally, especially to other men. And there are

[24:18] especially to other men. And there are already enough challenges of men opening

[24:21] already enough challenges of men opening up to women. Oh, how am I going to be

[24:23] up to women. Oh, how am I going to be seen? My fragile masculinity will be

[24:25] seen? My fragile masculinity will be shattered. Maybe she'll tell her

[24:26] shattered. Maybe she'll tell her friends. Or maybe it's my partner. She

[24:28] friends. Or maybe it's my partner. She won't be attracted to me anymore.

[24:31] won't be attracted to me anymore. And uh yeah, I I just think that was I'd

[24:33] And uh yeah, I I just think that was I'd never seen it put that way previously

[24:35] never seen it put that way previously that guys

[24:38] that guys want to be able to be vulnerable and yet

[24:41] want to be able to be vulnerable and yet when they see other male vulnerability,

[24:43] when they see other male vulnerability, it makes them very very uncomfortable.

[24:45] it makes them very very uncomfortable. They'll uh quote tweet it online mocking

[24:48] They'll uh quote tweet it online mocking it or they won't reach out in the way

[24:50] it or they won't reach out in the way that's needed. And a couple of the

[24:52] that's needed. And a couple of the reasons that were put forward are well

[24:55] reasons that were put forward are well maybe it highlights where you might be

[24:57] maybe it highlights where you might be weak too. this is somebody being being

[24:59] weak too. this is somebody being being vulnerable and that throws into sharp

[25:01] vulnerable and that throws into sharp contrast the fact that hey guess what

[25:03] contrast the fact that hey guess what you've got vulnerabilities as well. Uh

[25:05] you've got vulnerabilities as well. Uh another part of this a little bit of an

[25:07] another part of this a little bit of an ev evolutionary psychology explanation

[25:09] ev evolutionary psychology explanation that uh we have our coalitions we would

[25:13] that uh we have our coalitions we would go out hunting and a guy that's not that

[25:16] go out hunting and a guy that's not that strong and stoic might not be a great

[25:18] strong and stoic might not be a great coalitional partner. What if we get to

[25:19] coalitional partner. What if we get to the end of the hunt and he can't be

[25:20] the end of the hunt and he can't be bothered to turn around and go back? So,

[25:22] bothered to turn around and go back? So, and many many other reasons. But yeah, I

[25:28] and many many other reasons. But yeah, I think that's an angle that guys,

[25:31] think that's an angle that guys, especially guys who want to be

[25:33] especially guys who want to be integrated, to transcend and include in

[25:35] integrated, to transcend and include in Wilburian language. You know,

[25:38] Wilburian language. You know, you should take a good look in the

[25:40] you should take a good look in the mirror in not just being able to talk

[25:43] mirror in not just being able to talk about your emotions, but in paying into

[25:45] about your emotions, but in paying into the pot, right? not just withdrawing

[25:47] the pot, right? not just withdrawing from the taxes but also hey I'm going to

[25:50] from the taxes but also hey I'm going to be here and I'm going to be here even to

[25:52] be here and I'm going to be here even to people maybe that I don't know this

[25:54] people maybe that I don't know this random guy on the internet as opposed to

[25:56] random guy on the internet as opposed to saying haha this person's with

[25:58] saying haha this person's with >> going huh this person was really hurting

[26:00] >> going huh this person was really hurting and

[26:01] and >> [ __ ] if I was hurting I I'd probably

[26:03] >> [ __ ] if I was hurting I I'd probably want someone to be there for me so maybe

[26:05] want someone to be there for me so maybe I should try and do the same for them

[26:07] I should try and do the same for them despite not knowing them

[26:08] despite not knowing them >> I'm thinking of bullying you know it's

[26:11] >> I'm thinking of bullying you know it's it's a strange word and it's an

[26:12] it's a strange word and it's an embarrassing word but it exists you know

[26:14] embarrassing word but it exists you know the impulse to bully

[26:16] the impulse to bully the weak. What is it? I mean, anyone

[26:18] the weak. What is it? I mean, anyone who's been through a school, which is

[26:20] who's been through a school, which is everybody, knows about it, right? Which

[26:22] everybody, knows about it, right? Which is you see somebody who's,

[26:26] is you see somebody who's, you know, typical target for bullying is

[26:29] you know, typical target for bullying is somebody in a school who's whose life

[26:31] somebody in a school who's whose life seems softer, um, more indulged than

[26:35] seems softer, um, more indulged than yours. They still seem stuck at a, in a

[26:38] yours. They still seem stuck at a, in a way, at a privilege level. You know,

[26:39] way, at a privilege level. You know, their mother bakes some biscuits or

[26:42] their mother bakes some biscuits or packs their teddy bear in their school

[26:43] packs their teddy bear in their school bag or whatever it is. and you think,

[26:46] bag or whatever it is. and you think, "Hang on a minute. I've had to be tough.

[26:48] "Hang on a minute. I've had to be tough. I've had to grow up. I've had to I've

[26:50] I've had to grow up. I've had to I've not been indulged and I'm going to I'm

[26:52] not been indulged and I'm going to I'm going to punish in another person not

[26:55] going to punish in another person not just the weakness, but the privilege,

[26:56] just the weakness, but the privilege, the emotional privilege that I see."

[26:59] the emotional privilege that I see." They they get to

[27:01] They they get to >> they get to walk around thinking that

[27:03] >> they get to walk around thinking that it's okay to be a bit weak and a bit

[27:07] it's okay to be a bit weak and a bit soft. Well, that's not okay for me. So

[27:10] soft. Well, that's not okay for me. So I'm I resent this privilege and I'm

[27:13] I'm I resent this privilege and I'm going to make sure that their life gets

[27:14] going to make sure that their life gets a bit miserable. And that's how you end

[27:17] a bit miserable. And that's how you end up bullying. And you know, parents bully

[27:20] up bullying. And you know, parents bully their children. I mean, this is great

[27:21] their children. I mean, this is great taboo, but they do. Um it's a real

[27:24] taboo, but they do. Um it's a real challenge for a parent to see somebody

[27:28] challenge for a parent to see somebody having a life that's softer than the one

[27:30] having a life that's softer than the one they had. And there's a real impulse to

[27:33] they had. And there's a real impulse to say, "Hang on, you know, I I resent you

[27:36] say, "Hang on, you know, I I resent you for your your privilege." Not not

[27:38] for your your privilege." Not not emotion not financial emotion emotional

[27:40] emotion not financial emotion emotional privilege. Why why do you get to be

[27:43] privilege. Why why do you get to be indulged in a way I wasn't? It's very

[27:45] indulged in a way I wasn't? It's very hard to bear that asymmetry.

[27:48] hard to bear that asymmetry. >> How do people overcome that? Let's say

[27:51] >> How do people overcome that? Let's say that you are a parent and you did grow

[27:53] that you are a parent and you did grow up in a household that was perhaps not

[27:56] up in a household that was perhaps not as emotionally forgiving as it should

[27:57] as emotionally forgiving as it should have been. You didn't feel quite as

[27:58] have been. You didn't feel quite as supported. And I imagine this this a

[28:01] supported. And I imagine this this a really complex emotion to feel which my

[28:04] really complex emotion to feel which my favorite ones. Uh,

[28:06] favorite ones. Uh, I grew up in a household that didn't

[28:08] I grew up in a household that didn't have room for my emotions. I did a lot

[28:11] have room for my emotions. I did a lot of selfwork in order to be able to

[28:12] of selfwork in order to be able to understand that and then try and wipe

[28:15] understand that and then try and wipe that slime off me so that I can give a

[28:17] that slime off me so that I can give a better life to my kids. My kids come

[28:18] better life to my kids. My kids come along. They start to have this better

[28:20] along. They start to have this better life. And somehow in seeing the better

[28:22] life. And somehow in seeing the better life that I designed and tried to

[28:24] life that I designed and tried to overcome in order to be able to make

[28:26] overcome in order to be able to make happen, resentment has now come in. And

[28:28] happen, resentment has now come in. And now I feel shame at my resentment. And I

[28:30] now I feel shame at my resentment. And I feel bitterness at my shame about my

[28:31] feel bitterness at my shame about my resentment and anxiety about my

[28:32] resentment and anxiety about my bitterness about my shame about my

[28:34] bitterness about my shame about my resentment. It's this infinite regress

[28:36] resentment. It's this infinite regress of emotions that you made happen in a

[28:39] of emotions that you made happen in a positive way. Congratulations. Hooray.

[28:41] positive way. Congratulations. Hooray. You overcame this. You were a circuit

[28:43] You overcame this. You were a circuit breaker in this sort of weird, you know,

[28:45] breaker in this sort of weird, you know, serial of uh of string lights and you

[28:48] serial of uh of string lights and you feel bad about it. I mean, I'm laughing,

[28:51] feel bad about it. I mean, I'm laughing, right? Because this is where we're

[28:52] right? Because this is where we're hitting kind of the tragedy of being

[28:54] hitting kind of the tragedy of being human, which is you try so hard to get

[28:56] human, which is you try so hard to get it right and you're trying to get this

[28:57] it right and you're trying to get this right and something else goes wrong. And

[28:59] right and something else goes wrong. And I mean, you know, we do need a warm,

[29:01] I mean, you know, we do need a warm, rich laughter. This is not merely the

[29:03] rich laughter. This is not merely the icing on the cake. It is one of the

[29:05] icing on the cake. It is one of the great solutions. I mean, we're we're

[29:07] great solutions. I mean, we're we're juggling here with the incompatibilities

[29:09] juggling here with the incompatibilities of, you know, raising children. Um, it's

[29:12] of, you know, raising children. Um, it's maddening. You avoid one problem, you

[29:14] maddening. You avoid one problem, you set off another one. Um, I think that,

[29:18] set off another one. Um, I think that, um, yes. So, look, I think we do so much

[29:21] um, yes. So, look, I think we do so much work on ourselves and still we're at

[29:24] work on ourselves and still we're at square one. Um there's an old Jewish

[29:27] square one. Um there's an old Jewish saying, man thinks, God laughs. Um in

[29:30] saying, man thinks, God laughs. Um in other words, you know, we're thinking

[29:33] other words, you know, we're thinking that we can master something. We can

[29:35] that we can master something. We can master a problem. It's so difficult. Um

[29:40] master a problem. It's so difficult. Um but I want to talk about I want to think

[29:41] but I want to talk about I want to think about sadism because we're talking about

[29:43] about sadism because we're talking about bullying. Um it's a really weird word,

[29:45] bullying. Um it's a really weird word, sadism. What is that? That's you think

[29:48] sadism. What is that? That's you think maybe it's a sex kink or it's something

[29:50] maybe it's a sex kink or it's something that really weird people all of us carry

[29:53] that really weird people all of us carry a sadistic impulse. I want to say an

[29:55] a sadistic impulse. I want to say an impulse. In other words, an impulse to

[29:59] impulse. In other words, an impulse to turn our own suffering into uh a desire

[30:02] turn our own suffering into uh a desire to punish or give suffering to another

[30:05] to punish or give suffering to another person.

[30:06] person. >> Um it always comes from pain in

[30:07] >> Um it always comes from pain in ourselves and we want to pass it on and

[30:09] ourselves and we want to pass it on and and you see lowlevel low level minuscule

[30:13] and you see lowlevel low level minuscule very hard to observe sadism in in daily

[30:16] very hard to observe sadism in in daily life in all sorts of areas. You see in

[30:18] life in all sorts of areas. You see in relationships you know people are

[30:19] relationships you know people are sadistic to their partners. I mean what

[30:22] sadistic to their partners. I mean what you know again we you know if there were

[30:24] you know again we you know if there were angels they would be weeping as they

[30:25] angels they would be weeping as they looked at human nature and what are we

[30:27] looked at human nature and what are we doing to ourselves and to each other but

[30:30] doing to ourselves and to each other but um there's an economy of suffering all

[30:35] um there's an economy of suffering all meanness is inherited. All impulse to be

[30:40] meanness is inherited. All impulse to be mean is coming down the generations from

[30:43] mean is coming down the generations from somebody else. Um and we we keep playing

[30:46] somebody else. Um and we we keep playing past the parcel with our suffering. We

[30:48] past the parcel with our suffering. We go oh look I've got some suffering. Oh,

[30:50] go oh look I've got some suffering. Oh, do you want some? Cuz I'm just it's

[30:51] do you want some? Cuz I'm just it's going to make me feel better.

[30:52] going to make me feel better. >> And that's how we end up, you know, that

[30:55] >> And that's how we end up, you know, that gu that guy stole my my foot. I'm going

[30:57] gu that guy stole my my foot. I'm going to take their eye. Oh, that person

[30:58] to take their eye. Oh, that person hacked off my my left finger. Well, I'll

[31:01] hacked off my my left finger. Well, I'll chop off their ear. And then, you know,

[31:02] chop off their ear. And then, you know, I'll take a side of their skull because,

[31:05] I'll take a side of their skull because, you know, and on and on and on it goes.

[31:08] you know, and on and on and on it goes. I remember you saying a marker of good

[31:10] I remember you saying a marker of good parenting is that your children don't

[31:11] parenting is that your children don't have any wish to be famous.

[31:14] have any wish to be famous. >> Yes. Um,

[31:17] >> Yes. Um, you know, there might be a few

[31:18] you know, there might be a few exceptions to that rule, but I think the

[31:21] exceptions to that rule, but I think the an outsized desire to shine in the eyes

[31:25] an outsized desire to shine in the eyes of strangers, to be known by people you

[31:27] of strangers, to be known by people you don't know is a sign of pathology, I

[31:30] don't know is a sign of pathology, I believe. And we're sitting here, you and

[31:32] believe. And we're sitting here, you and I,

[31:32] I, >> in front of lots of cameras,

[31:34] >> in front of lots of cameras, >> in front of lots of lots of strangers.

[31:35] >> in front of lots of lots of strangers. So, something's gone wrong for us. I

[31:37] So, something's gone wrong for us. I mean, and it's so basic. I don't know

[31:39] mean, and it's so basic. I don't know enough about your childhood. I know a

[31:41] enough about your childhood. I know a bit about mine. Uh, you will have felt

[31:43] bit about mine. Uh, you will have felt invisible. I mean, why become a little

[31:45] invisible. I mean, why become a little bit more visible than everybody else if

[31:47] bit more visible than everybody else if you don't carry within you a deep sense

[31:49] you don't carry within you a deep sense of having been invisible and unheard? Is

[31:51] of having been invisible and unheard? Is there not a natural pull for that

[31:54] there not a natural pull for that generally that's kind of written into

[31:55] generally that's kind of written into the source code of humans?

[31:58] the source code of humans? Oh, I suppose actually yes, there is.

[32:00] Oh, I suppose actually yes, there is. And it's everybody else and the fact

[32:01] And it's everybody else and the fact that you are an outlier within that

[32:03] that you are an outlier within that suggests that you are different. Right.

[32:04] suggests that you are different. Right. Okay. I've answered my own question.

[32:06] Okay. I've answered my own question. Thank you. Yeah. So I think there's a

[32:08] Thank you. Yeah. So I think there's a compensatory uh business going on and I

[32:10] compensatory uh business going on and I think the ability to have a so-called

[32:12] think the ability to have a so-called ordinary life is a massive achievement.

[32:14] ordinary life is a massive achievement. It's if we want to put it this way an

[32:16] It's if we want to put it this way an exceptional achievement. It's it's like

[32:18] exceptional achievement. It's it's like it's like comedians. You know people who

[32:21] it's like comedians. You know people who have an outsized need to make others

[32:23] have an outsized need to make others laugh are almost always children who

[32:27] laugh are almost always children who were facing something not funny at all

[32:30] were facing something not funny at all that they needed to find a way through.

[32:34] that they needed to find a way through. They they learned to make jokes cuz

[32:36] They they learned to make jokes cuz there was something pretty sad around uh

[32:38] there was something pretty sad around uh that they learned to to manage. And in

[32:41] that they learned to to manage. And in all of these, you know, when when

[32:43] all of these, you know, when when dealing with those people or those sort

[32:44] dealing with those people or those sort of people are listening now, you know,

[32:46] of people are listening now, you know, the response should always be

[32:49] the response should always be what how did the way in which I grew up

[32:53] what how did the way in which I grew up figure as a solution to a problem that I

[32:56] figure as a solution to a problem that I was facing and therefore could I now at

[32:59] was facing and therefore could I now at whatever age you're at cut myself some

[33:01] whatever age you're at cut myself some slack and try something else. I needed

[33:03] slack and try something else. I needed to laugh in order to be tolerated. What

[33:04] to laugh in order to be tolerated. What would it mean to be serious? I needed to

[33:06] would it mean to be serious? I needed to be famous in order to survive. What

[33:08] be famous in order to survive. What would it mean to think about obscurity?

[33:10] would it mean to think about obscurity? Or indeed, I needed to be painfully

[33:13] Or indeed, I needed to be painfully modest and always underperform in order

[33:15] modest and always underperform in order in order not to spark jealousy. What

[33:17] in order not to spark jealousy. What happens if I tried something different?

[33:19] happens if I tried something different? You know, these are these are the major

[33:20] You know, these are these are the major sort of break points, turning points in

[33:23] sort of break points, turning points in a life. When you think the things I

[33:25] a life. When you think the things I needed to do to get me through childhood

[33:27] needed to do to get me through childhood are now hampering my possibilities in

[33:30] are now hampering my possibilities in adulthood, those the situations that

[33:33] adulthood, those the situations that required that behavior are no longer in

[33:35] required that behavior are no longer in existence. What happens if I tried

[33:36] existence. What happens if I tried something different? But in order to do

[33:38] something different? But in order to do that, you have to see the pattern that

[33:39] that, you have to see the pattern that you would that you were set by your

[33:41] you would that you were set by your childhood. Mark Marou, comedian says,

[33:45] childhood. Mark Marou, comedian says, "The monster I created to protect the

[33:46] "The monster I created to protect the child inside of me is difficult to

[33:48] child inside of me is difficult to manage." Beautiful. Love it. This

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[35:01] and modern wisdom at checkout. Status anxiety kind of related to that,

[35:03] Status anxiety kind of related to that, you know, this this need to be seen.

[35:05] you know, this this need to be seen. Look at me. Hello, I am here on I

[35:07] Look at me. Hello, I am here on I mentioned before because we are

[35:08] mentioned before because we are recording in a church or an old church

[35:10] recording in a church or an old church at the moment that uh just by chance you

[35:13] at the moment that uh just by chance you might have decided to wear your flowing

[35:14] might have decided to wear your flowing robes today. Unfortunately, not um but

[35:17] robes today. Unfortunately, not um but that need that desire look at me, look

[35:19] that need that desire look at me, look at how special I am. Look at how

[35:20] at how special I am. Look at how impressive I am. Status anxiety is going

[35:23] impressive I am. Status anxiety is going to be there I think no matter how

[35:25] to be there I think no matter how enlightened you are. I I want to feel

[35:27] enlightened you are. I I want to feel like I'm needed by other people and

[35:29] like I'm needed by other people and respected and admired by people I

[35:31] respected and admired by people I admire. That's a pretty big one. Is

[35:33] admire. That's a pretty big one. Is there a good way to deal with Is there a

[35:36] there a good way to deal with Is there a healthy way to sort of deal with status

[35:38] healthy way to sort of deal with status and status anxiety? I mean, it's funny

[35:39] and status anxiety? I mean, it's funny you mentioned churches. I mean, the the

[35:42] you mentioned churches. I mean, the the really helpful thing about religions is

[35:44] really helpful thing about religions is that they tend to tell their believers

[35:47] that they tend to tell their believers that someone really knows them and

[35:49] that someone really knows them and really cares about them and is looking

[35:52] really cares about them and is looking at them. Um, and if you think about the

[35:55] at them. Um, and if you think about the impulse to be rich and famous and

[35:57] impulse to be rich and famous and esteemed, it's really a desire that gets

[36:00] esteemed, it's really a desire that gets soaked up by religions. Um, religions

[36:03] soaked up by religions. Um, religions are saying everybody, you know, in in in

[36:06] are saying everybody, you know, in in in Christianity, every hair on your head is

[36:08] Christianity, every hair on your head is numbered. In other words, someone's

[36:10] numbered. In other words, someone's really looking at you. Someone knows you

[36:12] really looking at you. Someone knows you in the way that a parent, a good parent

[36:14] in the way that a parent, a good parent knows a child.

[36:16] knows a child. >> You know, the great thing about early

[36:17] >> You know, the great thing about early childhood in a good and loving family is

[36:20] childhood in a good and loving family is that child is a superstar. You know,

[36:22] that child is a superstar. You know, they come in, they sing a song, they

[36:24] they come in, they sing a song, they everyone claps, they're happy. You know,

[36:26] everyone claps, they're happy. You know, in the morning, it's like the little

[36:28] in the morning, it's like the little prince has arrived, the princess is, you

[36:29] prince has arrived, the princess is, you know, doing a pirouette, etc. that

[36:31] know, doing a pirouette, etc. that doesn't make a child entitled.

[36:33] doesn't make a child entitled. Entitlement comes from deprivation. Um

[36:36] Entitlement comes from deprivation. Um the ability to absorb an ordinary life

[36:39] the ability to absorb an ordinary life comes from early emotional privilege. If

[36:41] comes from early emotional privilege. If if if the child is able to be the center

[36:44] if if the child is able to be the center of the universe in the early years, they

[36:47] of the universe in the early years, they will be able to accept without too much

[36:50] will be able to accept without too much psychological damage a subsidiary

[36:52] psychological damage a subsidiary position in adult life. That the need to

[36:55] position in adult life. That the need to be always at the center and always

[36:57] be always at the center and always important is a compensation. It's not a

[36:59] important is a compensation. It's not a sign of health. M

[37:00] sign of health. M >> and therefore a good childhood is

[37:02] >> and therefore a good childhood is connected up with the ability to give

[37:05] connected up with the ability to give your child that charge of specialness so

[37:08] your child that charge of specialness so that then they can go on to do that much

[37:10] that then they can go on to do that much more important thing which is to be

[37:11] more important thing which is to be ordinary to accept ordinariness which is

[37:14] ordinary to accept ordinariness which is a massive challenge and all of us are in

[37:16] a massive challenge and all of us are in the end ultimately ordinary and that's

[37:18] the end ultimately ordinary and that's okay

[37:19] okay >> and to not feel shame

[37:20] >> and to not feel shame >> and not feel shame

[37:22] >> and not feel shame >> and to accept that there are limits on

[37:23] >> and to accept that there are limits on your power you will need to die you will

[37:26] your power you will need to die you will accept your finitude

[37:28] accept your finitude >> I wrote a a little essay about shame. I

[37:30] >> I wrote a a little essay about shame. I want it to read to you if that's okay.

[37:32] want it to read to you if that's okay. >> Uh so I've been thinking about the shame

[37:35] >> Uh so I've been thinking about the shame of simple pleasures. This is a quote

[37:37] of simple pleasures. This is a quote from a friend. I have not yet grown wise

[37:39] from a friend. I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply enjoy simple things. We

[37:42] enough to deeply enjoy simple things. We are all terrible accountants of our own

[37:44] are all terrible accountants of our own joy. Most of us only accept deposits

[37:46] joy. Most of us only accept deposits when the transaction is sufficiently

[37:48] when the transaction is sufficiently large. The day we get married, the night

[37:49] large. The day we get married, the night we play the main stage at Glastenbury,

[37:51] we play the main stage at Glastenbury, the moment the business sells for $100

[37:52] the moment the business sells for $100 million. Anything less and the entry

[37:55] million. Anything less and the entry doesn't even make the ledger. We treat

[37:57] doesn't even make the ledger. We treat small pleasures like counterfeit

[37:58] small pleasures like counterfeit currency. Oh, that thing made your day.

[38:02] currency. Oh, that thing made your day. That small moment made your week. How

[38:05] That small moment made your week. How feeble, how desperate, how limited your

[38:07] feeble, how desperate, how limited your life must be to be thrilled by something

[38:09] life must be to be thrilled by something so unimpressive. You must not have a lot

[38:11] so unimpressive. You must not have a lot going on. We roll our eyes at the tiny

[38:13] going on. We roll our eyes at the tiny events that others get excited at, as

[38:16] events that others get excited at, as though joy must be proportionate to

[38:17] though joy must be proportionate to scale. And yet, life is made up of

[38:20] scale. And yet, life is made up of little things exactly like this. Not

[38:22] little things exactly like this. Not once in a while, but always. Your life

[38:25] once in a while, but always. Your life is constructed out of moments so small

[38:26] is constructed out of moments so small they wouldn't even register as an event

[38:28] they wouldn't even register as an event on anyone's calendar. So why can't

[38:31] on anyone's calendar. So why can't something small be something great?

[38:34] something small be something great? Well, sometimes I feel things more

[38:37] Well, sometimes I feel things more deeply than I should do, including the

[38:39] deeply than I should do, including the shame at feeling things more deeply than

[38:40] shame at feeling things more deeply than I should do. Also including the shame of

[38:43] I should do. Also including the shame of being delighted by little things more

[38:45] being delighted by little things more than I think I should. As if taking

[38:47] than I think I should. As if taking pleasure in something tiny reveals the

[38:49] pleasure in something tiny reveals the smallalness of my life. But perhaps

[38:51] smallalness of my life. But perhaps that's exactly backward. Maybe the true

[38:53] that's exactly backward. Maybe the true richness of a life is how much joy you

[38:55] richness of a life is how much joy you can harvest from the smallest possible

[38:56] can harvest from the smallest possible patch of soil. And here's the payoff.

[38:59] patch of soil. And here's the payoff. When you lower the threshold for joy,

[39:00] When you lower the threshold for joy, you don't just get more of it, you get

[39:02] you don't just get more of it, you get it now. Who is truly the more impressive

[39:05] it now. Who is truly the more impressive person? The one who requires a huge

[39:06] person? The one who requires a huge cathedral of [ __ ] fanfare, and

[39:08] cathedral of [ __ ] fanfare, and galactic accomplishments in order to get

[39:10] galactic accomplishments in order to get the slightest ficker of pleasure. Like

[39:12] the slightest ficker of pleasure. Like some massochist at a sex party demanding

[39:14] some massochist at a sex party demanding car batteries get clamped onto his

[39:15] car batteries get clamped onto his nipples before he can even get started.

[39:17] nipples before he can even get started. or the person who can do it with a good

[39:19] or the person who can do it with a good coffee and a fresh breeze. Love it. I

[39:23] coffee and a fresh breeze. Love it. I mean, Chris, what it makes me think that

[39:25] mean, Chris, what it makes me think that we're incredibly

[39:28] we're incredibly easily led in our sense of what matters

[39:31] easily led in our sense of what matters in life. We're really bad judges,

[39:34] in life. We're really bad judges, independent judges of significance. So,

[39:37] independent judges of significance. So, if somebody says, you know, that artwork

[39:39] if somebody says, you know, that artwork on the wall, that's really expensive,

[39:41] on the wall, that's really expensive, that's really famous, that used to

[39:42] that's really famous, that used to belong to a king or a queen, we think,

[39:44] belong to a king or a queen, we think, oh, that's marvelous. And if we don't

[39:46] oh, that's marvelous. And if we don't know who the painter was, who the artist

[39:48] know who the painter was, who the artist was, or what it is, we think, "Oh, that

[39:50] was, or what it is, we think, "Oh, that can't be any good." So, it's almost

[39:53] can't be any good." So, it's almost comedic, isn't it? How how supine and

[39:57] comedic, isn't it? How how supine and dumb we are in deciding for ourselves um

[40:01] dumb we are in deciding for ourselves um what matters. So, you know, you do get

[40:04] what matters. So, you know, you do get this in in culture. Um if a book wins a

[40:07] this in in culture. Um if a book wins a prize, everybody decides that book's

[40:08] prize, everybody decides that book's amazing. Before it won the prize,

[40:10] amazing. Before it won the prize, everybody thought it was boring. And and

[40:11] everybody thought it was boring. And and [clears throat] you know, the book

[40:12] [clears throat] you know, the book hasn't changed. I think about this in

[40:14] hasn't changed. I think about this in terms I'm a great fan of flying. I love

[40:15] terms I'm a great fan of flying. I love flying and I wouldn't have I wouldn't

[40:17] flying and I wouldn't have I wouldn't have guessed that about you.

[40:19] have guessed that about you. >> I love love love it and I love the

[40:21] >> I love love love it and I love the technology. I love the you know all

[40:22] technology. I love the you know all sorts of things the beauty aesthetics.

[40:24] sorts of things the beauty aesthetics. Anyway, um I'm always struck by the way

[40:25] Anyway, um I'm always struck by the way in which flying has nowadays very low

[40:29] in which flying has nowadays very low prestige in the world compared let's say

[40:31] prestige in the world compared let's say to art. So if you say to somebody I'm

[40:34] to art. So if you say to somebody I'm going to a gallery and I'm going to look

[40:35] going to a gallery and I'm going to look at some pictures. Someone goes oh that's

[40:36] at some pictures. Someone goes oh that's very you know a noble thing to do. I'm

[40:39] very you know a noble thing to do. I'm going to I'm going to take a flight and

[40:41] going to I'm going to take a flight and on the flight I'm going to open the

[40:42] on the flight I'm going to open the window and I'm going to look at the

[40:43] window and I'm going to look at the clouds and I'm going to really delight

[40:45] clouds and I'm going to really delight in them and I'm going to marvel at them

[40:46] in them and I'm going to marvel at them and I'm going to thinking, "Oh my

[40:47] and I'm going to thinking, "Oh my goodness, this is this is better than

[40:49] goodness, this is this is better than any painting by Leonardo or Busousan or

[40:51] any painting by Leonardo or Busousan or whatever. This is just this is striking,

[40:53] whatever. This is just this is striking, right?" People would think you're making

[40:55] right?" People would think you're making a big deal of it. Shut that window, but

[40:56] a big deal of it. Shut that window, but I'm trying to watch a film. [laughter]

[40:57] I'm trying to watch a film. [laughter] So, it's not that prestigious to look

[41:00] So, it's not that prestigious to look out the window. Um, and and that's just

[41:02] out the window. Um, and and that's just a tiny example of how bad we are at at

[41:06] a tiny example of how bad we are at at finding significance by ourselves. I

[41:08] finding significance by ourselves. I think this is true creativity. True

[41:10] think this is true creativity. True creativity is when you have a sense that

[41:14] creativity is when you have a sense that your pleasure um could be legitimate

[41:17] your pleasure um could be legitimate wherever it lies. So if you happen to

[41:19] wherever it lies. So if you happen to like pebbles, go for it. You know,

[41:20] like pebbles, go for it. You know, that's that's going to be your pleasure.

[41:22] that's that's going to be your pleasure. Or if you like the way that sunlight

[41:24] Or if you like the way that sunlight hits, you know, a window blind or or

[41:26] hits, you know, a window blind or or concrete, um that's going to be that's

[41:28] concrete, um that's going to be that's going to be the thing for you. And I

[41:31] going to be the thing for you. And I think it's small children have it more

[41:33] think it's small children have it more naturally. That's what makes that's what

[41:34] naturally. That's what makes that's what makes small children delightful to

[41:36] makes small children delightful to adults. You know how it is. If you take

[41:37] adults. You know how it is. If you take a small child to a park, it's hilarious.

[41:39] a small child to a park, it's hilarious. You can't even get to the swings because

[41:40] You can't even get to the swings because they will have stopped. The child will

[41:42] they will have stopped. The child will have stopped maybe by a wall or they'll

[41:44] have stopped maybe by a wall or they'll have noticed, you know, a piece of

[41:45] have noticed, you know, a piece of chewing gum in in in a rock and you

[41:47] chewing gum in in in a rock and you think and they'll be looking at it,

[41:48] think and they'll be looking at it, whatever. And you go, "Come on, let's go

[41:50] whatever. And you go, "Come on, let's go to the swing." And they don't want to go

[41:50] to the swing." And they don't want to go to the swing because they've discovered

[41:51] to the swing because they've discovered a tuft of grass growing out of a

[41:54] a tuft of grass growing out of a concrete ledge or whatever it is. They

[41:56] concrete ledge or whatever it is. They are independent arbittors of

[41:58] are independent arbittors of significance. By 15, they're like,

[42:00] significance. By 15, they're like, "Well, what did Drake like or what, you

[42:02] "Well, what did Drake like or what, you know, what's what's X telling me to?"

[42:04] know, what's what's X telling me to?" >> They've outsourced their sense of taste.

[42:06] >> They've outsourced their sense of taste. >> Exactly. And that's so tedious. I mean,

[42:07] >> Exactly. And that's so tedious. I mean, bless them, everybody does it. But

[42:09] bless them, everybody does it. But ideally, by the time you get to full

[42:11] ideally, by the time you get to full maturity, you become a bit weirder once

[42:14] maturity, you become a bit weirder once more. And that's what makes certain

[42:17] more. And that's what makes certain adults really delightful. They go,

[42:19] adults really delightful. They go, doesn't matter what everybody thinks.

[42:20] doesn't matter what everybody thinks. For me, I'm liking this thing. I

[42:23] For me, I'm liking this thing. I sometimes think about it in terms of

[42:24] sometimes think about it in terms of entertaining. I don't know how much

[42:25] entertaining. I don't know how much entertaining you do. When people say,

[42:27] entertaining you do. When people say, I'm going to I'm going to give a dinner

[42:28] I'm going to I'm going to give a dinner party. I'm going to invite some friends

[42:29] party. I'm going to invite some friends for dinner. They get into such a mess

[42:32] for dinner. They get into such a mess thinking, how am I going to organize

[42:33] thinking, how am I going to organize this dinner? Ooh, I must have a starter

[42:36] this dinner? Ooh, I must have a starter and and maybe it's a melon and or maybe

[42:38] and and maybe it's a melon and or maybe it's I don't know prawns or something

[42:40] it's I don't know prawns or something and then and well I must have this thing

[42:41] and then and well I must have this thing called a main course which might be

[42:43] called a main course which might be chicken or something and and then they

[42:44] chicken or something and and then they or I got a dessert and they're just you

[42:46] or I got a dessert and they're just you know they're overflowing with anxiety

[42:48] know they're overflowing with anxiety etc. And if you said to them what do you

[42:50] etc. And if you said to them what do you actually enjoy? what what you know if

[42:52] actually enjoy? what what you know if it's supper time what you and they might

[42:53] it's supper time what you and they might go well I like opening you know a can of

[42:54] go well I like opening you know a can of tuna putting it on the table getting

[42:56] tuna putting it on the table getting some hummus dipping that um putting my

[42:58] some hummus dipping that um putting my feet up and you thought okay why don't

[43:00] feet up and you thought okay why don't you just do that with your mates why

[43:01] you just do that with your mates why don't you just just drop the pretense

[43:03] don't you just just drop the pretense have the courage to think what's

[43:05] have the courage to think what's touching me might touch another person

[43:07] touching me might touch another person >> and your dinner party is going to be a

[43:09] >> and your dinner party is going to be a lot more fun this is ultimately of

[43:10] lot more fun this is ultimately of course what great artists do great

[43:12] course what great artists do great artists have a sense that what's fun for

[43:15] artists have a sense that what's fun for them what's meaningful for them will

[43:17] them what's meaningful for them will probably be meaningful for other people

[43:19] probably be meaningful for other people even though right now there's quite a

[43:21] even though right now there's quite a lot of silence about that area. So,

[43:23] lot of silence about that area. So, they're kind of they're taking they've

[43:25] they're kind of they're taking they've got a faith that we started talking

[43:27] got a faith that we started talking about self-esteem. They got a faith that

[43:28] about self-esteem. They got a faith that the things that turn them on are likely

[43:31] the things that turn them on are likely to turn other people on as well. And

[43:34] to turn other people on as well. And that's a beautiful confidence and that's

[43:36] that's a beautiful confidence and that's what leads to great art. Great art is

[43:39] what leads to great art. Great art is really the courage to define the

[43:40] really the courage to define the pleasure for yourself. It's lovely quote

[43:42] pleasure for yourself. It's lovely quote from Emerson. He says, "In the minds of

[43:44] from Emerson. He says, "In the minds of geniuses, we find our own neglected

[43:48] geniuses, we find our own neglected thoughts."

[43:50] thoughts." In the minds of geniuses, we find our

[43:53] In the minds of geniuses, we find our own neglected thoughts. In other words,

[43:55] own neglected thoughts. In other words, geniuses, so-called geniuses, don't have

[43:57] geniuses, so-called geniuses, don't have thoughts that are completely different

[43:58] thoughts that are completely different from those of other people. What they do

[44:01] from those of other people. What they do is they take the thoughts that we all

[44:02] is they take the thoughts that we all have and they give them the significance

[44:04] have and they give them the significance they deserve. Some of them, some of

[44:06] they deserve. Some of them, some of those thoughts. And so that's why when

[44:08] those thoughts. And so that's why when you pick up a really great book, often

[44:09] you pick up a really great book, often you think, "Wow, I've always thought

[44:12] you think, "Wow, I've always thought that, but I've never known how to say

[44:15] that, but I've never known how to say it." And really what we mean is, "I've

[44:16] it." And really what we mean is, "I've never had the courage to give that

[44:19] never had the courage to give that thought its due because I'm lacking

[44:21] thought its due because I'm lacking self-esteem."

[44:23] self-esteem." >> There is a

[44:25] >> There is a it's a a really sort of wonderful blend

[44:28] it's a a really sort of wonderful blend between

[44:30] between boneheaded self-belief, which is uh kind

[44:34] boneheaded self-belief, which is uh kind of rebellious. It feels a bit spiky,

[44:37] of rebellious. It feels a bit spiky, sort of a not that

[44:39] sort of a not that >> and a much more sort of warm cozy

[44:41] >> and a much more sort of warm cozy sensation which is I like what I like

[44:44] sensation which is I like what I like and I like myself for liking it. Does

[44:46] and I like myself for liking it. Does that make sense? There is this the the

[44:48] that make sense? There is this the the uh rejection of entropy outside and this

[44:52] uh rejection of entropy outside and this sort of containment of structure inside

[44:55] sort of containment of structure inside >> and immediately I'm thinking about the

[44:57] >> and immediately I'm thinking about the background that would have made the

[44:58] background that would have made the second version possible. I'm imagining a

[45:01] second version possible. I'm imagining a parent who says do that thing that you

[45:04] parent who says do that thing that you that you like doing. That's fine. You

[45:06] that you like doing. That's fine. You you can be slightly weird and we don't

[45:09] you can be slightly weird and we don't think that's weird here. You can just

[45:10] think that's weird here. You can just pursue your own pleasure in a non

[45:14] pursue your own pleasure in a non brittle way. You know, as you say, it's

[45:16] brittle way. You know, as you say, it's a it's a gentle acknowledgement of your

[45:19] a it's a gentle acknowledgement of your individuality.

[45:20] individuality. >> We are in

[45:22] >> We are in a place that's got some pretty wonderful

[45:25] a place that's got some pretty wonderful is stained glass art. Is that classes

[45:27] is stained glass art. Is that classes art?

[45:27] art? >> I'd [snorts] imagine.

[45:29] >> I'd [snorts] imagine. Let's let's play really loose with the

[45:30] Let's let's play really loose with the concept of art. Art is anything that you

[45:32] concept of art. Art is anything that you know excites us. It seems beautiful. You

[45:35] know excites us. It seems beautiful. You often talk about art. In a lot of your

[45:36] often talk about art. In a lot of your books, you have uh images of of of

[45:41] books, you have uh images of of of different paintings of different

[45:42] different paintings of different sculptures of stuff like that.

[45:44] sculptures of stuff like that. >> How can people become better at

[45:46] >> How can people become better at appreciating art? They're white belts at

[45:49] appreciating art? They're white belts at looking at a gallery and they want to

[45:52] looking at a gallery and they want to have a better appreciation of it. They

[45:53] have a better appreciation of it. They feel like there's something that they're

[45:54] feel like there's something that they're missing. They don't understand. and they

[45:55] missing. They don't understand. and they don't know the story of where this

[45:56] don't know the story of where this painter came from and where they were at

[45:58] painter came from and where they were at at that point in life.

[45:59] at that point in life. >> Well, one thought is people tend to

[46:00] >> Well, one thought is people tend to think in order to be a decent person who

[46:03] think in order to be a decent person who likes art, I've got to like everything.

[46:04] likes art, I've got to like everything. I got to go into a museum and I got to

[46:06] I got to go into a museum and I got to just delight in everything. Think about

[46:07] just delight in everything. Think about it in music. People are much ser when it

[46:11] it in music. People are much ser when it comes to music than it when it comes to

[46:12] comes to music than it when it comes to visual arts. People are really hung up

[46:15] visual arts. People are really hung up on the visual arts. And I always say

[46:17] on the visual arts. And I always say take your cue from music. You know when

[46:20] take your cue from music. You know when you like something musically and you

[46:22] you like something musically and you don't care that there's loads and loads

[46:23] don't care that there's loads and loads of other stuff that doesn't touch you.

[46:25] of other stuff that doesn't touch you. you don't mind. You like what you like.

[46:26] you don't mind. You like what you like. You make your own playlist. So, make

[46:29] You make your own playlist. So, make your own playlist of the of the artists

[46:31] your own playlist of the of the artists that touch you. And it might be 3% of

[46:34] that touch you. And it might be 3% of the art that's produced by the world.

[46:35] the art that's produced by the world. And it might be not any of the famous

[46:36] And it might be not any of the famous names. Um the famous names are on the

[46:39] names. Um the famous names are on the whole chosen by all sorts of bizarre

[46:41] whole chosen by all sorts of bizarre ways and find your own way to things

[46:44] ways and find your own way to things that delight you. Um be, you know, have

[46:47] that delight you. Um be, you know, have the courage. Also, when walking through

[46:49] the courage. Also, when walking through a museum, you can't eat it all at once.

[46:51] a museum, you can't eat it all at once. I mean, these museums are bizarre. are

[46:53] I mean, these museums are bizarre. are they're like they're like archives of

[46:55] they're like they're like archives of everything that's happened over a

[46:57] everything that's happened over a thousand years. And you're supposed to

[46:58] thousand years. And you're supposed to kind of spend an afternoon and like it

[47:00] kind of spend an afternoon and like it all. It's just we can't absorb it. We

[47:03] all. It's just we can't absorb it. We can't metabolize it. And so I always

[47:05] can't metabolize it. And so I always think, you know, go to museum. If you

[47:07] think, you know, go to museum. If you find two things that you'd like to

[47:09] find two things that you'd like to ideally nick and put in your house,

[47:11] ideally nick and put in your house, let's [laughter] get going. Be very

[47:13] let's [laughter] get going. Be very personal. People are really normal in

[47:15] personal. People are really normal in the museum gift shop. You know, when

[47:16] the museum gift shop. You know, when they get to the museum gift shop,

[47:17] they get to the museum gift shop, they're like, "Right, what postcard

[47:19] they're like, "Right, what postcard should I buy?" Then they're thinking,

[47:20] should I buy?" Then they're thinking, "That's the way to love art." It's like

[47:23] "That's the way to love art." It's like what car should I send my granny? That's

[47:24] what car should I send my granny? That's the beginning of art appreciation

[47:26] the beginning of art appreciation because it's like what do I like? What

[47:28] because it's like what do I like? What might they like? Go for it.

[47:29] might they like? Go for it. >> All the rest is nonsense.

[47:31] >> All the rest is nonsense. >> You don't need to get caught up too

[47:32] >> You don't need to get caught up too much. I wonder what the difference is

[47:34] much. I wonder what the difference is between music. I completely agree. I'm

[47:36] between music. I completely agree. I'm very unequivocating about the stuff that

[47:37] very unequivocating about the stuff that I like in music. And yet when I go and

[47:41] I like in music. And yet when I go and if I imagine myself sitting in front of

[47:42] if I imagine myself sitting in front of a painting sort of fertively be looking

[47:45] a painting sort of fertively be looking to either side to work out, oh this seem

[47:47] to either side to work out, oh this seem very melancholy. This must be a

[47:48] very melancholy. This must be a melancholy. I must be somber. I'll be

[47:50] melancholy. I must be somber. I'll be somber. this will be that's the way to

[47:51] somber. this will be that's the way to do it. And uh I wonder what it is about

[47:53] do it. And uh I wonder what it is about the medium that makes it a little bit

[47:56] the medium that makes it a little bit more

[47:58] more difficult, a little bit more uh hard to

[48:00] difficult, a little bit more uh hard to define your own taste. There's a there's

[48:02] define your own taste. There's a there's an ancient Greek myth about the origins

[48:03] an ancient Greek myth about the origins of painting. There was apparently a

[48:04] of painting. There was apparently a shepherd boy who was in love with a

[48:06] shepherd boy who was in love with a shepherd girl and the shepherd girl was

[48:08] shepherd girl and the shepherd girl was going to go away. And uh that night on

[48:11] going to go away. And uh that night on their last night together, they were in

[48:13] their last night together, they were in a cave and there was a shadow on the

[48:15] a cave and there was a shadow on the cave wall of the shepherd girl and the

[48:18] cave wall of the shepherd girl and the shepherd boy took up a piece of chalk

[48:20] shepherd boy took up a piece of chalk and traced the outline of the shepherd

[48:22] and traced the outline of the shepherd girls form and that's supposed to be

[48:24] girls form and that's supposed to be there lots of paintings of it's the

[48:25] there lots of paintings of it's the origin of of art. In other words, the

[48:28] origin of of art. In other words, the impulse to make art comes when something

[48:30] impulse to make art comes when something precious is going to vanish and art

[48:33] precious is going to vanish and art could be thought of as a bucket in which

[48:35] could be thought of as a bucket in which you preserve something valuable. And we

[48:39] you preserve something valuable. And we need art because we can't hold it all in

[48:41] need art because we can't hold it all in our own fingers. We can't absorb it all.

[48:43] our own fingers. We can't absorb it all. And so we outsource it to something that

[48:45] And so we outsource it to something that can stabilize it and hold it for us.

[48:47] can stabilize it and hold it for us. That's the impulse to take a picture.

[48:49] That's the impulse to take a picture. You know, when you go to a beautiful

[48:50] You know, when you go to a beautiful place and you go, I like it. There's

[48:51] place and you go, I like it. There's always a fear of loss and you think, I'm

[48:53] always a fear of loss and you think, I'm going to lose it, so I must take a

[48:54] going to lose it, so I must take a picture of it. Same thing goes on in

[48:56] picture of it. Same thing goes on in art. And so the art that you love is

[48:58] art. And so the art that you love is almost always that the art that contains

[49:01] almost always that the art that contains within it a bit of your true home, your

[49:04] within it a bit of your true home, your true happiness that is in danger of

[49:06] true happiness that is in danger of slipping away. And it's going to be

[49:08] slipping away. And it's going to be different for everybody. Um I think one

[49:09] different for everybody. Um I think one of the most interesting questions is why

[49:11] of the most interesting questions is why are you touched by the art that touches

[49:12] are you touched by the art that touches you? And it tends to be because that art

[49:15] you? And it tends to be because that art captures something that the person

[49:17] captures something that the person doesn't have enough of a secure hold on

[49:20] doesn't have enough of a secure hold on and they need to preserve it. So for

[49:21] and they need to preserve it. So for example, I love calm art. You know, I

[49:23] example, I love calm art. You know, I love beautiful empty spaces, linearity,

[49:28] love beautiful empty spaces, linearity, dignity of form, etc. I love it. Is my

[49:30] dignity of form, etc. I love it. Is my life like that? No, that's not that's

[49:32] life like that? No, that's not that's not where I live. I live in chaos. Um,

[49:35] not where I live. I live in chaos. Um, but I love that because that's my true

[49:37] but I love that because that's my true home, but I'm not there often enough.

[49:39] home, but I'm not there often enough. So, it's a momento. It's saying, "Come

[49:41] So, it's a momento. It's saying, "Come back to this place. That's where you

[49:42] back to this place. That's where you need to be in order to be your true

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[50:42] wisdom.

[50:43] wisdom. You mentioned chaos there.

[50:46] You mentioned chaos there. Do you think that humans have always

[50:48] Do you think that humans have always been plagued by the need to keep

[50:51] been plagued by the need to keep themselves busy or is this a as hustle

[50:54] themselves busy or is this a as hustle and grind culture as much of a modern

[50:55] and grind culture as much of a modern phenomena as YouTube essays would have

[50:58] phenomena as YouTube essays would have us believe?

[50:59] us believe? Um, I think it's very hard to sit with

[51:01] Um, I think it's very hard to sit with yourself because there's panic about

[51:04] yourself because there's panic about what you might discover. You know, one

[51:05] what you might discover. You know, one of the fascinating things is why are we

[51:08] of the fascinating things is why are we so easily distracted? Why can't we sit

[51:12] so easily distracted? Why can't we sit with our thoughts? The reason is there's

[51:14] with our thoughts? The reason is there's so much about our thoughts that is mixed

[51:17] so much about our thoughts that is mixed up with sadness, regret, fear, etc. And

[51:20] up with sadness, regret, fear, etc. And it takes courage. It literally takes

[51:22] it takes courage. It literally takes courage. Which is why the best places to

[51:24] courage. Which is why the best places to think are often those where there's a

[51:26] think are often those where there's a little bit of distraction and a

[51:28] little bit of distraction and a possibility for introspection.

[51:30] possibility for introspection. >> Have you got any Have you got any places

[51:31] >> Have you got any Have you got any places that you do that yourself?

[51:32] that you do that yourself? >> Trains. Trains. I mean, we think we

[51:34] >> Trains. Trains. I mean, we think we invented railways to go from, you know,

[51:36] invented railways to go from, you know, London to Manchester or New York to

[51:38] London to Manchester or New York to Philadelphia. We didn't. We invented

[51:40] Philadelphia. We didn't. We invented them as places to think because in a

[51:42] them as places to think because in a half empty carriage, what better place

[51:44] half empty carriage, what better place than to get to know not the destination

[51:46] than to get to know not the destination but yourself. You're looking out of the

[51:49] but yourself. You're looking out of the window and there's enough distraction

[51:50] window and there's enough distraction from the telegraph poles going by or the

[51:52] from the telegraph poles going by or the birds overhead. There's enough to kind

[51:54] birds overhead. There's enough to kind of take your imagination, you know, to

[51:56] of take your imagination, you know, to to kind of tether the more anxious sides

[51:58] to kind of tether the more anxious sides of you, but there's also enough

[52:00] of you, but there's also enough encouragement to keep going and keep

[52:01] encouragement to keep going and keep making, you know, discoveries. It's

[52:04] making, you know, discoveries. It's really hard to think when thinking is

[52:06] really hard to think when thinking is all you're meant to do. I mean, if you

[52:07] all you're meant to do. I mean, if you want to terrify somebody, put them in a

[52:08] want to terrify somebody, put them in a blank room and give them a sheet of

[52:10] blank room and give them a sheet of paper and go write out who you are and

[52:12] paper and go write out who you are and what you're really concerned about. You

[52:13] what you're really concerned about. You know, that's panicinducing. If somebody,

[52:15] know, that's panicinducing. If somebody, you know, why do our best thoughts come

[52:16] you know, why do our best thoughts come to us in the shower? You're not supposed

[52:18] to us in the shower? You're not supposed to be thinking in the shower. You're

[52:19] to be thinking in the shower. You're just, the mind is let loose from an

[52:22] just, the mind is let loose from an agenda. That's when the good thought

[52:23] agenda. That's when the good thought comes through.

[52:24] comes through. >> Good thoughts are charged with anxiety.

[52:28] >> Good thoughts are charged with anxiety. Thinking is an anxious process. And so,

[52:30] Thinking is an anxious process. And so, we need to give ourselves a little bit

[52:34] we need to give ourselves a little bit of comfort. That's why people often like

[52:36] of comfort. That's why people often like to work in a cafe. It's like the reason

[52:38] to work in a cafe. It's like the reason is there's a lot of bustle around. That

[52:40] is there's a lot of bustle around. That bustle is absorbing the nervous energy

[52:42] bustle is absorbing the nervous energy and allows sometimes a good thought to

[52:44] and allows sometimes a good thought to come through. I think much better if I

[52:46] come through. I think much better if I have a pen in my hands. And from 18

[52:49] have a pen in my hands. And from 18 years of full-time education, you know,

[52:51] years of full-time education, you know, just sitting in lectures and and class

[52:53] just sitting in lectures and and class and twirling a pen through my fingers.

[52:54] and twirling a pen through my fingers. You're right. It blows off just that

[52:56] You're right. It blows off just that additional bit. For me, uh, my favorite

[52:59] additional bit. For me, uh, my favorite place for thinking is doing the washing

[53:01] place for thinking is doing the washing up

[53:02] up >> dishes

[53:04] >> dishes because you're not supposed to be doing

[53:05] because you're not supposed to be doing the thinking. And and also dishes are so

[53:07] the thinking. And and also dishes are so amazing because you go from real mess to

[53:11] amazing because you go from real mess to real tidiness in three and a half

[53:13] real tidiness in three and a half seconds. It's so quick. And

[53:17] seconds. It's so quick. And >> the problem with the modern world is

[53:18] >> the problem with the modern world is that so many of the things we want to do

[53:20] that so many of the things we want to do take so long. And you know the great

[53:23] take so long. And you know the great thing about a pre-industrial world is

[53:25] thing about a pre-industrial world is that we used to be able to achieve

[53:27] that we used to be able to achieve things within a handy time scale. You

[53:30] things within a handy time scale. You know, you ran a bakery and in the

[53:31] know, you ran a bakery and in the morning you had the flour and you put it

[53:33] morning you had the flour and you put it together and the yeast and then it had

[53:35] together and the yeast and then it had risen and then you sell it and then you

[53:36] risen and then you sell it and then you know on and on it goes and in in a

[53:38] know on and on it goes and in in a 24-hour cycle you've gone through the

[53:40] 24-hour cycle you've gone through the whole thing. Nowadays most people work

[53:42] whole thing. Nowadays most people work in organizations a thousand 2,000

[53:44] in organizations a thousand 2,000 people. They're working on projects that

[53:46] people. They're working on projects that will take years to come to fruition. Um

[53:49] will take years to come to fruition. Um I some think why do people love sports?

[53:51] I some think why do people love sports? Again sports take place within a

[53:53] Again sports take place within a concentrated time period. You know a

[53:55] concentrated time period. You know a football match is 90 minutes. Within 90

[53:56] football match is 90 minutes. Within 90 minutes there will be an objective, a

[53:58] minutes there will be an objective, a goal, a victory, defeat, etc. It's it's

[54:00] goal, a victory, defeat, etc. It's it's manageable. Most of us have lives in

[54:02] manageable. Most of us have lives in which the pitch is 8,000 kilometers

[54:05] which the pitch is 8,000 kilometers long. [laughter] The the game takes 20

[54:08] long. [laughter] The the game takes 20 years to you know there's there's 25

[54:10] years to you know there's there's 25 balls. There's 18 goalpost. You don't

[54:12] balls. There's 18 goalpost. You don't know what's going on. You lose the

[54:13] know what's going on. You lose the thread of your own life and of the game

[54:16] thread of your own life and of the game that you're meant to be playing. Which

[54:17] that you're meant to be playing. Which is why [clears throat] so many of us

[54:18] is why [clears throat] so many of us have crisis where we think, "Hang on a

[54:19] have crisis where we think, "Hang on a minute. What am I supposed to be doing?"

[54:21] minute. What am I supposed to be doing?" Because we're within complex

[54:22] Because we're within complex organizations that deny us that clarity

[54:25] organizations that deny us that clarity of the earlier pre-industrial world.

[54:28] of the earlier pre-industrial world. What is an existential crisis in your

[54:30] What is an existential crisis in your opinion?

[54:32] opinion? I mean, it's a word that it's a word

[54:34] I mean, it's a word that it's a word that sometimes people reach when the

[54:37] that sometimes people reach when the they feel that the the building blocks

[54:40] they feel that the the building blocks of their life have ceased to make sense.

[54:43] of their life have ceased to make sense. that um for all sorts of reasons the

[54:47] that um for all sorts of reasons the place they find themselves in no longer

[54:48] place they find themselves in no longer feels like it makes sense anymore. You

[54:51] feels like it makes sense anymore. You you might have a sense of why am I in

[54:53] you might have a sense of why am I in this relationship? Why am I in this job?

[54:55] this relationship? Why am I in this job? Why do I live in the country I live in,

[54:56] Why do I live in the country I live in, etc. And

[54:59] etc. And existential crisis are good things. We

[55:01] existential crisis are good things. We should have them. They are they are

[55:02] should have them. They are they are positive things. They often happen on a

[55:04] positive things. They often happen on a Sunday evening. Sunday evening is that

[55:06] Sunday evening. Sunday evening is that that moment in the week when um there's

[55:09] that moment in the week when um there's a there's a gap to question why am I me?

[55:12] a there's a gap to question why am I me? what what's this assumption that I have

[55:14] what what's this assumption that I have about what I should be doing and to

[55:16] about what I should be doing and to regularly submit yourself to a complete

[55:19] regularly submit yourself to a complete existential audit as it were to go could

[55:22] existential audit as it were to go could I be someone totally different is is it

[55:24] I be someone totally different is is it all gone wrong etc. um that's a sign

[55:27] all gone wrong etc. um that's a sign that you're a questioning person. Don't

[55:30] that you're a questioning person. Don't get me wrong, it's terrifying. It's

[55:31] get me wrong, it's terrifying. It's terrifying to feel that most of what we

[55:35] terrifying to feel that most of what we what we're doing is slightly arbitrary.

[55:37] what we're doing is slightly arbitrary. There is no necessity. We tell

[55:39] There is no necessity. We tell ourselves, well, I have to do this and I

[55:41] ourselves, well, I have to do this and I have to be here and and you know, the

[55:43] have to be here and and you know, the existential insight is no, you don't.

[55:44] existential insight is no, you don't. We're all completely free. We could be

[55:47] We're all completely free. We could be doing other things. We there necessity

[55:49] doing other things. We there necessity is one that we're putting on ourselves,

[55:50] is one that we're putting on ourselves, but that's dizzying. I mean, that's

[55:52] but that's dizzying. I mean, that's existential vertigo. And we think, "Oh

[55:54] existential vertigo. And we think, "Oh my god, I've got so much possibility

[55:57] my god, I've got so much possibility that I don't know where to start." And

[56:00] that I don't know where to start." And going back to the busyiness, the hustle

[56:02] going back to the busyiness, the hustle and grind when the base level of noise

[56:06] and grind when the base level of noise is very loud. It's very hard to hear

[56:08] is very loud. It's very hard to hear those more subtle whispers of fleeting

[56:10] those more subtle whispers of fleeting thoughts. As uh my therapist talks

[56:12] thoughts. As uh my therapist talks about, uh pay attention to fleeting

[56:14] about, uh pay attention to fleeting thoughts. M

[56:15] thoughts. M >> uh but fleeting thoughts easily get

[56:16] >> uh but fleeting thoughts easily get drowned out if you've got a ton of

[56:18] drowned out if you've got a ton of really loud fastmoving ones like oh I I

[56:21] really loud fastmoving ones like oh I I must get that project finished before

[56:22] must get that project finished before tomorrow and I have all of these emails

[56:24] tomorrow and I have all of these emails to do and it's very busy I must get the

[56:26] to do and it's very busy I must get the gym's going to be hard because those

[56:27] gym's going to be hard because those road works on the on the the the street

[56:29] road works on the on the the the street outside of my house. I love the idea of

[56:31] outside of my house. I love the idea of fleeting thoughts that you know because

[56:33] fleeting thoughts that you know because what do we mean? We mean thoughts that

[56:36] what do we mean? We mean thoughts that are on the outer perimeter of

[56:37] are on the outer perimeter of consciousness um that have some clue as

[56:41] consciousness um that have some clue as to what we should be doing next in all

[56:43] to what we should be doing next in all sorts of areas. They're carrying

[56:44] sorts of areas. They're carrying >> part of that metal detector again.

[56:46] >> part of that metal detector again. >> Yeah, they're carrying hints,

[56:48] >> Yeah, they're carrying hints, suggestions, but they're hard to reach

[56:50] suggestions, but they're hard to reach because again they're they're to do with

[56:53] because again they're they're to do with learning and we don't like learning.

[56:55] learning and we don't like learning. Learning is really difficult because it

[56:57] Learning is really difficult because it throws into question how we are how

[56:59] throws into question how we are how we've been doing things and to be able I

[57:02] we've been doing things and to be able I mean there should be classes on this you

[57:04] mean there should be classes on this you know how to land your fleeting thoughts.

[57:07] know how to land your fleeting thoughts. Plato had this idea that thinking was

[57:09] Plato had this idea that thinking was like an avary in which birds are flying

[57:12] like an avary in which birds are flying around all the time. And the

[57:14] around all the time. And the philosophical challenge is to land those

[57:16] philosophical challenge is to land those birds and be able to study them. But

[57:17] birds and be able to study them. But most of the time they're they're

[57:18] most of the time they're they're whizzing in and out. And so they're not

[57:21] whizzing in and out. And so they're not just fleeting thoughts, they're racing

[57:22] just fleeting thoughts, they're racing thoughts and to be able to still things

[57:25] thoughts and to be able to still things enough. I sometimes think a very basic

[57:27] enough. I sometimes think a very basic exercise to lie down in bed and ask

[57:30] exercise to lie down in bed and ask yourself, what am I really feeling?

[57:33] yourself, what am I really feeling? What's really going on? I I know I know

[57:36] What's really going on? I I know I know what's supposedly going on, but what am

[57:38] what's supposedly going on, but what am I feeling behind the feeling? What's the

[57:40] I feeling behind the feeling? What's the feeling behind the feeling? And to be

[57:42] feeling behind the feeling? And to be able to make that hierarchy of the

[57:44] able to make that hierarchy of the surface and the depths, and to realize

[57:47] surface and the depths, and to realize that there's likely to be something

[57:48] that there's likely to be something going on in the depths all the time

[57:50] going on in the depths all the time that's a bit different, uh an anxiety, a

[57:52] that's a bit different, uh an anxiety, a sadness, a worry, a desire for

[57:54] sadness, a worry, a desire for tenderness, whatever it is. Um if you

[57:57] tenderness, whatever it is. Um if you can be somebody who gives space to the

[57:59] can be somebody who gives space to the fleeting thoughts, um you're going to

[58:02] fleeting thoughts, um you're going to become a much richer human being. And

[58:04] become a much richer human being. And remember the old adage, we can only go

[58:06] remember the old adage, we can only go so far with other people as we've gone

[58:08] so far with other people as we've gone with ourselves. We can only be

[58:10] with ourselves. We can only be interesting to other people in so far as

[58:13] interesting to other people in so far as we've paid attention to the more

[58:15] we've paid attention to the more neglected bits of ourselves. And one of

[58:17] neglected bits of ourselves. And one of the weirder bits of social life is some

[58:20] the weirder bits of social life is some people make you feel quite boring and

[58:22] people make you feel quite boring and other people make you feel really

[58:23] other people make you feel really interesting. Isn't that a weird thing?

[58:25] interesting. Isn't that a weird thing? Why is that? The people who make you

[58:27] Why is that? The people who make you feel boring are people who haven't

[58:29] feel boring are people who haven't opened many doors in themselves. And you

[58:32] opened many doors in themselves. And you pick it up instantly. And so therefore,

[58:34] pick it up instantly. And so therefore, when they go, "What was your weekend

[58:36] when they go, "What was your weekend like?" You go, "Um, I don't know."

[58:39] like?" You go, "Um, I don't know." Because suddenly you realize there's

[58:41] Because suddenly you realize there's nothing that I could say that's

[58:44] nothing that I could say that's meaningful about my weekend that they

[58:45] meaningful about my weekend that they would understand cuz they haven't gone

[58:47] would understand cuz they haven't gone into those more interesting bits.

[58:48] into those more interesting bits. Whereas if somebody's giving off that

[58:50] Whereas if somebody's giving off that vibe of I've opened many doors in

[58:52] vibe of I've opened many doors in myself, we have so much to say to them.

[58:55] myself, we have so much to say to them. and they feel safe in doing the same.

[58:57] and they feel safe in doing the same. >> But also, you'll feel understood. I

[58:59] >> But also, you'll feel understood. I mean, let's let's take podcasting. Why

[59:02] mean, let's let's take podcasting. Why are some people good podcasters? Why why

[59:05] are some people good podcasters? Why why can some people get stuff out of people

[59:07] can some people get stuff out of people and other people can't? And it's it's

[59:10] and other people can't? And it's it's fascinating. Um, and we've become used

[59:12] fascinating. Um, and we've become used in the modern world to very highquality

[59:15] in the modern world to very highquality podcasts because the people who have

[59:16] podcasts because the people who have famous podcasts are generally those who

[59:18] famous podcasts are generally those who can really do it. But why can they do

[59:20] can really do it. But why can they do it? Is it because they can ask a good

[59:22] it? Is it because they can ask a good question? Nah, it's not that. It's

[59:24] question? Nah, it's not that. It's because they've gone far in themselves.

[59:27] because they've gone far in themselves. The the uh interlocutor feels it and

[59:30] The the uh interlocutor feels it and then they go deep in themselves.

[59:31] then they go deep in themselves. >> Mhm.

[59:32] >> Mhm. >> So, the reason I'm babbling with you and

[59:34] >> So, the reason I'm babbling with you and I can have tons to say to you is cuz I

[59:37] I can have tons to say to you is cuz I know I and I don't know intellectually.

[59:39] know I and I don't know intellectually. I just know in a sensory way that you've

[59:41] I just know in a sensory way that you've gone very far in all sorts of ways. And

[59:43] gone very far in all sorts of ways. And I think I could tell this guy anything

[59:46] I think I could tell this guy anything and he'd go, "Yeah." And that gives

[59:49] and he'd go, "Yeah." And that gives encouragement. So that fascinating

[59:51] encouragement. So that fascinating distinction, someone who makes you feel

[59:53] distinction, someone who makes you feel interesting and someone who makes you

[59:54] interesting and someone who makes you feel boring, it's the other person

[59:56] feel boring, it's the other person that's doing the work. Even though they

[59:58] that's doing the work. Even though they may be hardly saying anything, it's in

[01:00:00] may be hardly saying anything, it's in the eyes. It's in the twitch of the

[01:00:01] the eyes. It's in the twitch of the mouth. It's all there. I adore that

[01:00:04] mouth. It's all there. I adore that idea. I uh took inspiration from that

[01:00:06] idea. I uh took inspiration from that video of yours and coined inverse

[01:00:09] video of yours and coined inverse charisma. Uh some people are

[01:00:12] charisma. Uh some people are interesting, some people make us feel

[01:00:13] interesting, some people make us feel interesting. And a lot of the time,

[01:00:15] interesting. And a lot of the time, especially young guys, they want their

[01:00:18] especially young guys, they want their stories to be electric and their aura to

[01:00:20] stories to be electric and their aura to be magnetic and they walk into a room

[01:00:21] be magnetic and they walk into a room and for everybody to feel impressed. But

[01:00:24] and for everybody to feel impressed. But when I thought about the sort of people

[01:00:26] when I thought about the sort of people that I liked spending my time around the

[01:00:28] that I liked spending my time around the most, it wasn't necessarily the ones

[01:00:30] most, it wasn't necessarily the ones that were the most impressive. I might

[01:00:31] that were the most impressive. I might walk into a room and I'd be very happy

[01:00:33] walk into a room and I'd be very happy to see them, but nobody else might

[01:00:34] to see them, but nobody else might notice. And I would try my very best to

[01:00:38] notice. And I would try my very best to sit next to them at dinner because I

[01:00:40] sit next to them at dinner because I knew that that would be the most sort of

[01:00:41] knew that that would be the most sort of fruitful ground. Have you ever heard

[01:00:43] fruitful ground. Have you ever heard that story about Jenny Jenny Jerome

[01:00:45] that story about Jenny Jenny Jerome Winston Churchill's mother?

[01:00:46] Winston Churchill's mother? >> So she went she was a little bit of a a

[01:00:49] >> So she went she was a little bit of a a starlet type socialite person and she

[01:00:52] starlet type socialite person and she got to go for dinner with Benjamin

[01:00:54] got to go for dinner with Benjamin Israeli and William Gladstone on

[01:00:56] Israeli and William Gladstone on consecutive nights separately and she

[01:00:58] consecutive nights separately and she said uh when I finished dinner with

[01:01:00] said uh when I finished dinner with Draeli I felt like he was the smartest

[01:01:02] Draeli I felt like he was the smartest man in all of England. When she finished

[01:01:05] man in all of England. When she finished dinner with William Gladstone she said I

[01:01:07] dinner with William Gladstone she said I left that dinner feeling like I was the

[01:01:08] left that dinner feeling like I was the smartest woman. And some people are

[01:01:11] smartest woman. And some people are interesting, some people make you feel

[01:01:12] interesting, some people make you feel interesting. But you know, it's really

[01:01:14] interesting. But you know, it's really important to say this is not flattery.

[01:01:16] important to say this is not flattery. When someone makes you feel interesting,

[01:01:18] When someone makes you feel interesting, it's not that they're flattering. You

[01:01:19] it's not that they're flattering. You go, "Oh, that's amazing." It's not that

[01:01:21] go, "Oh, that's amazing." It's not that they genuinely unleash an interest which

[01:01:24] they genuinely unleash an interest which is actually in you. You see what I mean?

[01:01:26] is actually in you. You see what I mean? It's not it's not a contract. People are

[01:01:29] It's not it's not a contract. People are interesting, but they need a an audience

[01:01:33] interesting, but they need a an audience to release that interest. Um, it's not

[01:01:36] to release that interest. Um, it's not it's not mere flattery. It's opening

[01:01:39] it's not mere flattery. It's opening doors in the other person on the basis

[01:01:41] doors in the other person on the basis that you've opened doors in yourself.

[01:01:43] that you've opened doors in yourself. I'm interested in the temptation to

[01:01:46] I'm interested in the temptation to intellectualize emotions. You know, you

[01:01:47] intellectualize emotions. You know, you were talking before ask the sort of why

[01:01:49] were talking before ask the sort of why beneath the why and

[01:01:52] beneath the why and uh getting below the neck as it's known

[01:01:55] uh getting below the neck as it's known in embodiment. Okay, fantastic. We have

[01:01:57] in embodiment. Okay, fantastic. We have this very developed who was that um

[01:01:59] this very developed who was that um philosopher that talked about being a

[01:02:01] philosopher that talked about being a philosopher is like being a a mouse with

[01:02:03] philosopher is like being a a mouse with a huge oversized ear on its back. uh you

[01:02:06] a huge oversized ear on its back. uh you know you have this one particular thing

[01:02:08] know you have this one particular thing that you've grown to monstrous size and

[01:02:12] that you've grown to monstrous size and anybody that is smart can do the work

[01:02:15] anybody that is smart can do the work but doing the work is just turning

[01:02:17] but doing the work is just turning feelings into theories

[01:02:19] feelings into theories >> and I wonder I'm interested in this

[01:02:21] >> and I wonder I'm interested in this temptation of how to overcome

[01:02:23] temptation of how to overcome intellectualizing emotions as opposed to

[01:02:26] intellectualizing emotions as opposed to actually sitting and and and and feeling

[01:02:28] actually sitting and and and and feeling them.

[01:02:29] them. >> What's wrong with intellectualizing?

[01:02:30] >> What's wrong with intellectualizing? intellectualizing gets a bad name

[01:02:32] intellectualizing gets a bad name because at some point it ceases to have

[01:02:35] because at some point it ceases to have an accurate relationship to reality. So

[01:02:37] an accurate relationship to reality. So in other words, your theory has left

[01:02:39] in other words, your theory has left behind um you know the facts. Your map

[01:02:43] behind um you know the facts. Your map is no longer mapping the territory

[01:02:46] is no longer mapping the territory accurately. That's what's wrong with it.

[01:02:47] accurately. That's what's wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with having a map,

[01:02:49] There's nothing wrong with having a map, but there's something very wrong with

[01:02:50] but there's something very wrong with having a a misguided map. And I think

[01:02:52] having a a misguided map. And I think when we when we say intellectualizing is

[01:02:54] when we when we say intellectualizing is bad, it's it's when it when it gives us

[01:02:56] bad, it's it's when it when it gives us a rather rigid description of the

[01:02:58] a rather rigid description of the territory which no longer sees the

[01:03:02] territory which no longer sees the actual full complexity of the terrain

[01:03:04] actual full complexity of the terrain it's aiming it's purporting to

[01:03:07] it's aiming it's purporting to represent.

[01:03:08] represent. >> And so what do we need to do? We need to

[01:03:10] >> And so what do we need to do? We need to constantly check our maps against the

[01:03:13] constantly check our maps against the territory. In other words, we need to

[01:03:15] territory. In other words, we need to think, okay, I've got this nice, neat

[01:03:18] think, okay, I've got this nice, neat theory. Maybe I need to blow it up

[01:03:20] theory. Maybe I need to blow it up because it's liable to have grown a bit

[01:03:22] because it's liable to have grown a bit stale. I need to, you know, I need to

[01:03:24] stale. I need to, you know, I need to head out head out back into the world

[01:03:27] head out head out back into the world and assume I know nothing. Blow up my

[01:03:29] and assume I know nothing. Blow up my theory in order to build a better one.

[01:03:31] theory in order to build a better one. So, it's not about abandoning. I think,

[01:03:33] So, it's not about abandoning. I think, you know, humans are naturally theory

[01:03:36] you know, humans are naturally theory makers.

[01:03:36] makers. >> There's nothing wrong with that. There's

[01:03:38] >> There's nothing wrong with that. There's something wrong with clinging to

[01:03:39] something wrong with clinging to outdated theory.

[01:03:40] outdated theory. >> If you hold it too tightly, that's an

[01:03:41] >> If you hold it too tightly, that's an issue. I've got this uh visual in my

[01:03:44] issue. I've got this uh visual in my mind. the difference between a way

[01:03:45] mind. the difference between a way marker which is being planted to give

[01:03:47] marker which is being planted to give you an idea of the terrain and a tether

[01:03:51] you an idea of the terrain and a tether to which you were attached. Oh, I can't

[01:03:53] to which you were attached. Oh, I can't move from this thing anymore. This made

[01:03:55] move from this thing anymore. This made sense 5 years ago when I first left

[01:03:58] sense 5 years ago when I first left university and that explained where I

[01:04:00] university and that explained where I was at and it gave the chaos in the

[01:04:03] was at and it gave the chaos in the world a sense of order. I kind I

[01:04:04] world a sense of order. I kind I understood where I was going and what

[01:04:06] understood where I was going and what was happening. Oh, if that no longer has

[01:04:09] was happening. Oh, if that no longer has accurate explanatory depth,

[01:04:12] accurate explanatory depth, I need to come up with a new theory. And

[01:04:13] I need to come up with a new theory. And that's scary. I I have to start all over

[01:04:15] that's scary. I I have to start all over again. You tell me I have to start all

[01:04:17] again. You tell me I have to start all over again.

[01:04:19] over again. I think we regularly have to start all

[01:04:21] I think we regularly have to start all over again. And I think you know that

[01:04:24] over again. And I think you know that old adage Socrates was asked why he was

[01:04:27] old adage Socrates was asked why he was so wise and he was said that he was so

[01:04:29] so wise and he was said that he was so wise because he knew that he wasn't

[01:04:30] wise because he knew that he wasn't wise. In other words, ignorance, a

[01:04:33] wise. In other words, ignorance, a capacity to acknowledge one's ignorance

[01:04:35] capacity to acknowledge one's ignorance is at the root cause of sophisticated

[01:04:38] is at the root cause of sophisticated thinking. that you should be returning

[01:04:41] thinking. that you should be returning to a kind of basic ignorance. Remember

[01:04:44] to a kind of basic ignorance. Remember the story of Picasso who went to an art

[01:04:45] the story of Picasso who went to an art school uh in old age and he looks at

[01:04:47] school uh in old age and he looks at some children uh scribbling and doing

[01:04:50] some children uh scribbling and doing drawings and he said you know when I was

[01:04:52] drawings and he said you know when I was their age I could paint like Raphael and

[01:04:55] their age I could paint like Raphael and now I'm learning again how to paint like

[01:04:57] now I'm learning again how to paint like them.

[01:04:58] them. >> Um that's really a story about giving up

[01:05:01] >> Um that's really a story about giving up the old map and allowing oneself to be

[01:05:05] the old map and allowing oneself to be ignorant again. And I think that's a

[01:05:08] ignorant again. And I think that's a true gift we give to ourselves when we

[01:05:11] true gift we give to ourselves when we allow ourselves to say, you know what, I

[01:05:13] allow ourselves to say, you know what, I don't know very much at all. I mean,

[01:05:15] don't know very much at all. I mean, people often say to me, they must say

[01:05:16] people often say to me, they must say this to you, you know, people say to me,

[01:05:18] this to you, you know, people say to me, oh, you must know so much about, you

[01:05:20] oh, you must know so much about, you know, love or death or this or that. You

[01:05:22] know, love or death or this or that. You know, you spend all time thinking, and I

[01:05:23] know, you spend all time thinking, and I rush to tell them, I literally don't

[01:05:26] rush to tell them, I literally don't know anything. Um, and I'm not, this is

[01:05:28] know anything. Um, and I'm not, this is not false modesty. It's a genuine sense

[01:05:31] not false modesty. It's a genuine sense that, um, you know, with every passing

[01:05:34] that, um, you know, with every passing day, I I know less. Um, and you know,

[01:05:39] day, I I know less. Um, and you know, it's not even wisdom. It's just comedic

[01:05:41] it's not even wisdom. It's just comedic really.

[01:05:41] really. >> With every passing day, I know less. I

[01:05:43] >> With every passing day, I know less. I love that.

[01:05:45] love that. >> Yeah. This

[01:05:47] >> Yeah. This the the other thing to consider there is

[01:05:49] the the other thing to consider there is that almost everyone's body of work is a

[01:05:51] that almost everyone's body of work is a thinly veiled autobiography.

[01:05:53] thinly veiled autobiography. >> Yeah.

[01:05:54] >> Yeah. >> You are looking to the person who has

[01:05:56] >> You are looking to the person who has put the most time into this. Why do you

[01:05:58] put the most time into this. Why do you think I put the most time into this?

[01:06:00] think I put the most time into this? because I see me as most efficient in

[01:06:03] because I see me as most efficient in precisely all of the different areas

[01:06:04] precisely all of the different areas that I am focusing on.

[01:06:06] that I am focusing on. >> 100%. Exactly. So, someone who's, you

[01:06:08] >> 100%. Exactly. So, someone who's, you know, providing a a guide to goodness

[01:06:11] know, providing a a guide to goodness probably finds goodness really hard.

[01:06:13] probably finds goodness really hard. Somebody who's really interested in

[01:06:15] Somebody who's really interested in wisdom is really in touch with the chaos

[01:06:17] wisdom is really in touch with the chaos in them and in the world. You wouldn't

[01:06:19] in them and in the world. You wouldn't do it otherwise. You're right. It's it's

[01:06:21] do it otherwise. You're right. It's it's a compensatory activity

[01:06:23] a compensatory activity >> and so be it. So we should never look to

[01:06:26] >> and so be it. So we should never look to you know our gurus to actually be

[01:06:29] you know our gurus to actually be somebody go oh you know I thought they'd

[01:06:31] somebody go oh you know I thought they'd be wise and then I you know I saw them

[01:06:33] be wise and then I you know I saw them cursing at the airport and said you know

[01:06:35] cursing at the airport and said you know what a fool they are you want to go of

[01:06:37] what a fool they are you want to go of course they did that no you know they're

[01:06:38] course they did that no you know they're so invested in maintaining a sort of

[01:06:41] so invested in maintaining a sort of adult poise of course they're going to

[01:06:43] adult poise of course they're going to have a fragile hold [laughter] on it

[01:06:44] have a fragile hold [laughter] on it they wouldn't bother otherwise and

[01:06:46] they wouldn't bother otherwise and that's okay that's absolutely fine

[01:06:48] that's okay that's absolutely fine >> I think uh I mentioned this to you last

[01:06:50] >> I think uh I mentioned this to you last time but I think it's one of the reasons

[01:06:51] time but I think it's one of the reasons why uh your work in particular Oliver

[01:06:54] why uh your work in particular Oliver Burkeman who wrote 4,000 Weeks. This

[01:06:57] Burkeman who wrote 4,000 Weeks. This very sanguin look at human nature. It's

[01:07:00] very sanguin look at human nature. It's got a distinctively British quality to

[01:07:02] got a distinctively British quality to it, which I love. This sort of uh

[01:07:06] it, which I love. This sort of uh doesn't get too big for its boots. It's

[01:07:07] doesn't get too big for its boots. It's kind of got a carry-on camping uh sort

[01:07:09] kind of got a carry-on camping uh sort of signature to it.

[01:07:11] of signature to it. >> I [laughter] mean, look, bless the

[01:07:12] >> I [laughter] mean, look, bless the Americans, but the problem with America

[01:07:15] Americans, but the problem with America is that it was started by people who

[01:07:17] is that it was started by people who thought you could build Jerusalem on

[01:07:19] thought you could build Jerusalem on this earth. That you literally could

[01:07:20] this earth. That you literally could build a city on the hill here and there.

[01:07:23] build a city on the hill here and there. Um whereas you know European culture was

[01:07:27] Um whereas you know European culture was a tragic culture which essentially s

[01:07:29] a tragic culture which essentially s thought as of human beings as inherently

[01:07:32] thought as of human beings as inherently flawed the play things of the gods and

[01:07:35] flawed the play things of the gods and unable to master the show until maybe

[01:07:38] unable to master the show until maybe the next life but definitely not this

[01:07:40] the next life but definitely not this one which immediately creates a comedic

[01:07:44] one which immediately creates a comedic modesty around the gap between your

[01:07:46] modesty around the gap between your aspirations and your reality. And so

[01:07:48] aspirations and your reality. And so growing up in Britain, I mean Britain

[01:07:50] growing up in Britain, I mean Britain doesn't do many things well, but one of

[01:07:51] doesn't do many things well, but one of the things it really does well is a kind

[01:07:54] the things it really does well is a kind of melancholy dark humor. I mean, this

[01:07:56] of melancholy dark humor. I mean, this is the home of the Smiths. This is the

[01:07:57] is the home of the Smiths. This is the home of Monty Pythons. This is, you

[01:07:58] home of Monty Pythons. This is, you know, these people are latching on to

[01:08:00] know, these people are latching on to the fact that life is absurd, dark, and

[01:08:03] the fact that life is absurd, dark, and that the most sophisticated response is

[01:08:05] that the most sophisticated response is a kind of rich, somber, hilarious

[01:08:09] a kind of rich, somber, hilarious laughter. Um, and you know, the the

[01:08:13] laughter. Um, and you know, the the reason why America has changed the

[01:08:15] reason why America has changed the planet so radically is that it's made up

[01:08:18] planet so radically is that it's made up of people who think that such a thing is

[01:08:20] of people who think that such a thing is possible. And you don't have to wait

[01:08:22] possible. And you don't have to wait till the next world. You do it right

[01:08:24] till the next world. You do it right here and now with some tools and you go

[01:08:26] here and now with some tools and you go to Silicon Valley and off you go. And

[01:08:28] to Silicon Valley and off you go. And it's wonderful. It's created, you know,

[01:08:30] it's wonderful. It's created, you know, wonders of the world. However,

[01:08:32] wonders of the world. However, psychically, my goodness, the toll has

[01:08:34] psychically, my goodness, the toll has been enormous. enormous because it

[01:08:37] been enormous. enormous because it forces everybody in that society to

[01:08:40] forces everybody in that society to measure themselves against an ideal

[01:08:42] measure themselves against an ideal which is so punishing. So you know the

[01:08:45] which is so punishing. So you know the secret sorrows of the American heart is

[01:08:48] secret sorrows of the American heart is a volume without end. It's a very big

[01:08:51] a volume without end. It's a very big volume because this is a society that

[01:08:53] volume because this is a society that puts its people under unbelievable

[01:08:56] puts its people under unbelievable psychic stress

[01:08:57] psychic stress >> because of blue sky thinking. You can do

[01:08:59] >> because of blue sky thinking. You can do all of these things. I wonder whether uh

[01:09:02] all of these things. I wonder whether uh it's one of the reasons why uh

[01:09:03] it's one of the reasons why uh victimhood culture and its sort of

[01:09:05] victimhood culture and its sort of modern incantation

[01:09:07] modern incantation uh hasn't quite caught on in the UK in

[01:09:10] uh hasn't quite caught on in the UK in in maybe the same way as it's often sort

[01:09:12] in maybe the same way as it's often sort of the finger is pointed at because if

[01:09:14] of the finger is pointed at because if you're a child and you're told you can

[01:09:15] you're a child and you're told you can be whatever you want to be the sky the

[01:09:18] be whatever you want to be the sky the sky is not even the limit. You can go

[01:09:19] sky is not even the limit. You can go beyond that and and go further. The the

[01:09:21] beyond that and and go further. The the literally a South African living in

[01:09:23] literally a South African living in America is the guy that's going trying

[01:09:24] America is the guy that's going trying to go past the moon.

[01:09:25] to go past the moon. >> Yeah.

[01:09:26] >> Yeah. >> To go and do this thing. Uh it's it's

[01:09:28] >> To go and do this thing. Uh it's it's the paradox of meritocracy, isn't it?

[01:09:30] the paradox of meritocracy, isn't it? You know, we hear a lot about this idea

[01:09:31] You know, we hear a lot about this idea of trying to build a society where

[01:09:33] of trying to build a society where everybody gets to where they merit to

[01:09:36] everybody gets to where they merit to be. And it's a wonderful idea, beautiful

[01:09:37] be. And it's a wonderful idea, beautiful idea. But if you really think that you

[01:09:40] idea. But if you really think that you can create a society where everyone

[01:09:41] can create a society where everyone deserves to be where they are, my

[01:09:45] deserves to be where they are, my goodness, you're going to have a problem

[01:09:46] goodness, you're going to have a problem explaining why you failed in that

[01:09:48] explaining why you failed in that society. Because not only is success

[01:09:50] society. Because not only is success merited, but so is failure. which is why

[01:09:52] merited, but so is failure. which is why failure is so crushing if you really

[01:09:55] failure is so crushing if you really believe in meritocracy in in certain

[01:09:57] believe in meritocracy in in certain European countries in a tragic idea. No

[01:10:00] European countries in a tragic idea. No one thinks it's a meritocracy. Everyone

[01:10:02] one thinks it's a meritocracy. Everyone thinks the whole system is is random.

[01:10:04] thinks the whole system is is random. It's rigged. The ancient Greeks were

[01:10:06] It's rigged. The ancient Greeks were obsessed by the idea of the arbitrary

[01:10:08] obsessed by the idea of the arbitrary nature of fate because the gods are in

[01:10:10] nature of fate because the gods are in control of human destiny. Not not

[01:10:13] control of human destiny. Not not humans. Humans can't control their

[01:10:14] humans. Humans can't control their destiny. But in the modern American

[01:10:16] destiny. But in the modern American view, of course, you control your

[01:10:18] view, of course, you control your destiny and you are responsible. Which

[01:10:20] destiny and you are responsible. Which is why, you know, American the American

[01:10:21] is why, you know, American the American word for someone who hasn't succeeded is

[01:10:23] word for someone who hasn't succeeded is a loser.

[01:10:25] a loser. >> The loser is somebody who's played a

[01:10:27] >> The loser is somebody who's played a game which had fair rules and they've

[01:10:30] game which had fair rules and they've messed up and therefore they deserve no

[01:10:32] messed up and therefore they deserve no pity and they just deserve to be called

[01:10:34] pity and they just deserve to be called a loser. Which is why the more

[01:10:35] a loser. Which is why the more meritocratic the system is, the more

[01:10:38] meritocratic the system is, the more psychological pressure there is, the

[01:10:40] psychological pressure there is, the more impulse there is to kill yourself

[01:10:41] more impulse there is to kill yourself if you don't succeed. I mean, suicide

[01:10:43] if you don't succeed. I mean, suicide rates skyrocket the more people believe

[01:10:47] rates skyrocket the more people believe that individual destiny reflects the

[01:10:50] that individual destiny reflects the essence of who you are. And suicide

[01:10:52] essence of who you are. And suicide rates fall when the explanatory factor

[01:10:55] rates fall when the explanatory factor is thought to lie outside the

[01:10:56] is thought to lie outside the individual.

[01:10:58] individual. >> Whereas the ancients would call those

[01:11:00] >> Whereas the ancients would call those losers unfortunates.

[01:11:03] losers unfortunates. >> 100%.

[01:11:04] >> 100%. >> Lady Fortuna.

[01:11:05] >> Lady Fortuna. >> Lady Fortuna.

[01:11:05] >> Lady Fortuna. >> Yeah. And I mean you the the the Greeks

[01:11:08] >> Yeah. And I mean you the the the Greeks I mean if you read any Greek history,

[01:11:11] I mean if you read any Greek history, folk tales etc. The ancient Greeks are

[01:11:13] folk tales etc. The ancient Greeks are obsessed by the by the notion of the

[01:11:17] obsessed by the by the notion of the gods are pulling us like marionets all

[01:11:21] gods are pulling us like marionets all the time.

[01:11:22] the time. >> Lady Fortune is the one with the

[01:11:24] >> Lady Fortune is the one with the >> the wheel.

[01:11:26] >> the wheel. >> Well, the tiller. The tiller.

[01:11:27] >> Well, the tiller. The tiller. >> No, I thought it was a a set of scales.

[01:11:29] >> No, I thought it was a a set of scales. Is it not scales that balance out? I was

[01:11:31] Is it not scales that balance out? I was also a tiller, you know, like a ship and

[01:11:32] also a tiller, you know, like a ship and able to control destinies and often a

[01:11:34] able to control destinies and often a cornucopia as well, holding lots of

[01:11:37] cornucopia as well, holding lots of goods. So, if Fortuna is in a good mood,

[01:11:39] goods. So, if Fortuna is in a good mood, she'll chuck you lots of lovely stuff

[01:11:40] she'll chuck you lots of lovely stuff and she's a bad mood, she'll just, you

[01:11:42] and she's a bad mood, she'll just, you know, um, adjust the tiller and off you

[01:11:44] know, um, adjust the tiller and off you go to your death. If you haven't been

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[01:12:33] head to functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modern

[01:12:37] wisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. Who was the uh stoic philosopher

[01:12:41] wisdom. Who was the uh stoic philosopher that had his legs broken and then was

[01:12:43] that had his legs broken and then was incarcerated? Is that Epictitus?

[01:12:45] incarcerated? Is that Epictitus? >> Uh that was Bartheus. Okay. Well, I I

[01:12:48] >> Uh that was Bartheus. Okay. Well, I I seem to remember a story from him where

[01:12:49] seem to remember a story from him where he was imprisoned and and loads of

[01:12:51] he was imprisoned and and loads of things went wrong and he was sort of in

[01:12:53] things went wrong and he was sort of in his 50s and he wasn't able to see his

[01:12:55] his 50s and he wasn't able to see his family and all of this stuff and one of

[01:12:57] family and all of this stuff and one of his friends came to him and was you know

[01:12:58] his friends came to him and was you know lamenting the fact how much has gone

[01:13:00] lamenting the fact how much has gone wrong. He must be so despondent. He

[01:13:01] wrong. He must be so despondent. He said, "Well, look at the first 50 years

[01:13:03] said, "Well, look at the first 50 years of my life. Look how blessed Lady

[01:13:05] of my life. Look how blessed Lady Fortuna had sort of come and you know I

[01:13:07] Fortuna had sort of come and you know I guess I've you know the scale or the

[01:13:09] guess I've you know the scale or the cornucopia you sort of run a little bit

[01:13:11] cornucopia you sort of run a little bit dry. I had a great you great crack at it

[01:13:13] dry. I had a great you great crack at it for the first however many five

[01:13:15] for the first however many five decades." I mean the Stoics were

[01:13:16] decades." I mean the Stoics were fascinating in that they they had

[01:13:18] fascinating in that they they had academic um discussions about if a wise

[01:13:21] academic um discussions about if a wise person how should a wise person look at

[01:13:24] person how should a wise person look at having two legs and losing one leg. It's

[01:13:27] having two legs and losing one leg. It's like how many legs do you need in order

[01:13:29] like how many legs do you need in order to be happy?

[01:13:30] to be happy? >> And the sort of position that you would

[01:13:31] >> And the sort of position that you would get to after lots and lots of study of

[01:13:33] get to after lots and lots of study of stoic thought is um the wise man uh

[01:13:37] stoic thought is um the wise man uh appreciates having two legs but can cope

[01:13:39] appreciates having two legs but can cope with having only one. Um, and that's

[01:13:42] with having only one. Um, and that's that's really sort of the essence of

[01:13:43] that's really sort of the essence of stoicism that you want to have two legs.

[01:13:45] stoicism that you want to have two legs. It's okay to want two legs, but it's

[01:13:47] It's okay to want two legs, but it's also uh you will know how to cope with

[01:13:49] also uh you will know how to cope with only one leg. That's that's years and

[01:13:51] only one leg. That's that's years and years of stoic study.

[01:13:53] years of stoic study. >> You mentioned last time about the uh the

[01:13:55] >> You mentioned last time about the uh the virtue of of pessimism, sort of

[01:13:57] virtue of of pessimism, sort of melancholy, a great British tradition.

[01:14:00] melancholy, a great British tradition. And [clears throat]

[01:14:01] And [clears throat] I wonder

[01:14:03] I wonder how you think about people learning to

[01:14:04] how you think about people learning to be a little bit more hopeful. Sort of

[01:14:06] be a little bit more hopeful. Sort of the opposite side of that because yes,

[01:14:10] the opposite side of that because yes, we we definitely do have what what was

[01:14:12] we we definitely do have what what was the thing that they said in Harry

[01:14:13] the thing that they said in Harry Potter? Uh mischief managed. They said

[01:14:15] Potter? Uh mischief managed. They said to make the the marauder's map go away.

[01:14:18] to make the the marauder's map go away. Uh melancholy managed. I feel like we've

[01:14:20] Uh melancholy managed. I feel like we've got melancholy well managed. However, uh

[01:14:23] got melancholy well managed. However, uh the other side to Fortuna this um

[01:14:27] the other side to Fortuna this um how can people learn to be a little bit

[01:14:28] how can people learn to be a little bit more hopeful? Look, I love that very

[01:14:30] more hopeful? Look, I love that very simple question. If you knew you

[01:14:32] simple question. If you knew you couldn't fail, what would you want to

[01:14:34] couldn't fail, what would you want to do? It's a it's such a big question, but

[01:14:36] do? It's a it's such a big question, but such a useful one. It has a elemental

[01:14:38] such a useful one. It has a elemental simplicity to it. But, you know, if you

[01:14:40] simplicity to it. But, you know, if you knew you could not fail, what would you

[01:14:42] knew you could not fail, what would you want to do? Um, because people don't

[01:14:45] want to do? Um, because people don't even allow themselves to play, you know,

[01:14:48] even allow themselves to play, you know, if you think about what play is, play is

[01:14:50] if you think about what play is, play is doing something without fearing

[01:14:52] doing something without fearing consequences. You know, let's just do

[01:14:55] consequences. You know, let's just do this as a game. Mhm.

[01:14:56] this as a game. Mhm. >> Children know how to play because

[01:14:58] >> Children know how to play because they're not so scared of consequences.

[01:15:00] they're not so scared of consequences. So they'll just give it a shot. And a

[01:15:03] So they'll just give it a shot. And a good adult life does require us to

[01:15:05] good adult life does require us to rediscover that freedom of playing. And

[01:15:07] rediscover that freedom of playing. And the way in which we do it is we think if

[01:15:09] the way in which we do it is we think if everything went wrong or you know if

[01:15:12] everything went wrong or you know if everything went wrong, it would still be

[01:15:13] everything went wrong, it would still be okay. And um and what about the idea of

[01:15:16] okay. And um and what about the idea of thinking this could go right? There

[01:15:17] thinking this could go right? There couldn't be any you know massive

[01:15:19] couldn't be any you know massive consequences. So rediscovering

[01:15:23] consequences. So rediscovering play around your ambition um is really

[01:15:26] play around your ambition um is really important.

[01:15:27] important. >> Is that lowering the stakes in a way?

[01:15:29] >> Is that lowering the stakes in a way? >> Yeah. And of course pessimism has a role

[01:15:31] >> Yeah. And of course pessimism has a role to play. Um you know there lovely quote

[01:15:33] to play. Um you know there lovely quote from Montain kings and philosophers [ __ ]

[01:15:36] from Montain kings and philosophers [ __ ] and so do ladies. Now what he was trying

[01:15:38] and so do ladies. Now what he was trying to say there is you know CEOs are he

[01:15:42] to say there is you know CEOs are he also has another quote. He goes on the

[01:15:43] also has another quote. He goes on the highest throne in the world we're seated

[01:15:45] highest throne in the world we're seated still upon our asses. He loves to use

[01:15:48] still upon our asses. He loves to use this sort of pungent French language in

[01:15:50] this sort of pungent French language in which he's basically saying, "Stop being

[01:15:53] which he's basically saying, "Stop being so intimidated by people in power.

[01:15:56] so intimidated by people in power. >> They sit on the toilet every day like

[01:16:00] >> They sit on the toilet every day like you do." So, you know, a lot of people

[01:16:02] you do." So, you know, a lot of people have that secret toilet-based

[01:16:05] have that secret toilet-based confidence. It's like you're feeling

[01:16:06] confidence. It's like you're feeling [laughter] really intimidated.

[01:16:08] [laughter] really intimidated. >> Toilet confidence. know that your hero

[01:16:11] >> Toilet confidence. know that your hero heroine is only a few hours, minutes

[01:16:13] heroine is only a few hours, minutes away from going off to defecate and use

[01:16:17] away from going off to defecate and use that as an anchor point to uh relativize

[01:16:21] that as an anchor point to uh relativize their status in relation to you.

[01:16:23] their status in relation to you. >> Yeah. The the sort of Jason Pargin's got

[01:16:26] >> Yeah. The the sort of Jason Pargin's got this great great idea where he says u

[01:16:28] this great great idea where he says u all of your heroes are full of [ __ ]

[01:16:30] all of your heroes are full of [ __ ] Your heroes aren't gods. They're just

[01:16:32] Your heroes aren't gods. They're just regular people who got good at one thing

[01:16:34] regular people who got good at one thing by sacrificing literally everything

[01:16:36] by sacrificing literally everything else. And you don't get to see that. the

[01:16:38] else. And you don't get to see that. the the probably one of the most fascinating

[01:16:42] the probably one of the most fascinating questions that's captivated me since

[01:16:44] questions that's captivated me since starting the show is

[01:16:47] starting the show is what is the price that people pay in

[01:16:49] what is the price that people pay in order to be someone that others admire.

[01:16:51] order to be someone that others admire. What are the externalities that are in

[01:16:53] What are the externalities that are in >> I don't look at it like that because I

[01:16:54] >> I don't look at it like that because I think that people tend to achieve what

[01:16:56] think that people tend to achieve what they need to achieve. They're not going

[01:16:59] they need to achieve. They're not going well I could have you know this sort of

[01:17:00] well I could have you know this sort of life or that sort of life but I'll

[01:17:02] life or that sort of life but I'll choose to you know try and win Wimbledon

[01:17:04] choose to you know try and win Wimbledon or um go to the moon. I I think they're

[01:17:07] or um go to the moon. I I think they're driven. It's not a choice.

[01:17:10] driven. It's not a choice. >> And uh it's a compulsion. Um and we can

[01:17:13] >> And uh it's a compulsion. Um and we can feel sorry for that compulsion, but also

[01:17:17] feel sorry for that compulsion, but also appreciate that it is a slightly

[01:17:19] appreciate that it is a slightly neurotic overcompensation.

[01:17:21] neurotic overcompensation. >> Should you look at successful people

[01:17:22] >> Should you look at successful people with more pity than envy in that regard?

[01:17:25] with more pity than envy in that regard? >> Sure. I mean, you know, somebody with an

[01:17:28] >> Sure. I mean, you know, somebody with an outsized need for anything always think

[01:17:30] outsized need for anything always think what's the opposite of that? What you

[01:17:32] what's the opposite of that? What you know, the very funny person, they're

[01:17:34] know, the very funny person, they're really afraid of seriousness. the very

[01:17:36] really afraid of seriousness. the very wealthy person, they've got a really

[01:17:38] wealthy person, they've got a really complicated relationship to a modest

[01:17:39] complicated relationship to a modest income, etc., etc. So, yes, there is a a

[01:17:44] income, etc., etc. So, yes, there is a a massive overcompensation which speaks of

[01:17:46] massive overcompensation which speaks of lack ultimately. It's a lack. Uh, think

[01:17:49] lack ultimately. It's a lack. Uh, think how poor you must feel in order to make

[01:17:51] how poor you must feel in order to make that much money.

[01:17:52] that much money. >> Mhm.

[01:17:53] >> Mhm. >> Think how deprived you must feel inside

[01:17:56] >> Think how deprived you must feel inside in order to need that level of status,

[01:17:59] in order to need that level of status, in order to be thought so special by

[01:18:01] in order to be thought so special by millions of strangers, how much you must

[01:18:03] millions of strangers, how much you must despise yourself. M

[01:18:05] despise yourself. M >> and we know this, every single biography

[01:18:07] >> and we know this, every single biography teaches us this. We know this about the

[01:18:09] teaches us this. We know this about the lives of everyone who's done an outsized

[01:18:11] lives of everyone who's done an outsized thing in one area. We know there's a

[01:18:13] thing in one area. We know there's a relationship

[01:18:14] relationship >> with the undersized opposite.

[01:18:16] >> with the undersized opposite. >> Mhm. Speaking of being special to

[01:18:18] >> Mhm. Speaking of being special to strangers, why do you think online

[01:18:20] strangers, why do you think online dating is so miserable reliably for most

[01:18:22] dating is so miserable reliably for most people?

[01:18:24] people? Um,

[01:18:26] Um, look, I think the problem with online

[01:18:28] look, I think the problem with online dating is that it teaches us that the

[01:18:31] dating is that it teaches us that the main problem with love is finding the

[01:18:35] main problem with love is finding the right person. And of course, it's one of

[01:18:37] right person. And of course, it's one of the issues that we need to locate a

[01:18:39] the issues that we need to locate a candidate who broadly fits certain

[01:18:41] candidate who broadly fits certain criteria. But that's probably a lot

[01:18:44] criteria. But that's probably a lot easier than we tend to think. The real

[01:18:47] easier than we tend to think. The real challenge is how do you get on with

[01:18:49] challenge is how do you get on with another human being? And that's not

[01:18:51] another human being? And that's not spoken of within dating culture. What

[01:18:53] spoken of within dating culture. What dating culture tells us is if there's a

[01:18:54] dating culture tells us is if there's a conflict or a problem, it's that you're

[01:18:56] conflict or a problem, it's that you're not with the so-called right person,

[01:18:58] not with the so-called right person, rather than accepting

[01:19:00] rather than accepting everybody you're likely to find is

[01:19:02] everybody you're likely to find is really problematic. So, as soon as you

[01:19:04] really problematic. So, as soon as you found a more or less okay candidate,

[01:19:08] found a more or less okay candidate, >> do the real work, which is learning how

[01:19:10] >> do the real work, which is learning how to live with them.

[01:19:11] to live with them. >> Um, but but we the emphasis is

[01:19:13] >> Um, but but we the emphasis is constantly thrown on that other thing,

[01:19:15] constantly thrown on that other thing, which is just finding the next shiny

[01:19:17] which is just finding the next shiny object. Um, so it's a it's a massive

[01:19:20] object. Um, so it's a it's a massive distractor of effort. It teaches us to

[01:19:23] distractor of effort. It teaches us to place the effort in the wrong place.

[01:19:26] place the effort in the wrong place. >> Yeah. Turning the

[01:19:29] >> Yeah. Turning the microscope around, turning it from a

[01:19:31] microscope around, turning it from a telescope that's searching to a

[01:19:32] telescope that's searching to a microscope that's looking at us. Okay.

[01:19:34] microscope that's looking at us. Okay. Well, how can you make yourself and this

[01:19:35] Well, how can you make yourself and this other person into something that's a

[01:19:37] other person into something that's a better unit as opposed to just getting

[01:19:38] better unit as opposed to just getting rid of them and moving on to the next

[01:19:39] rid of them and moving on to the next and and there's a, [clears throat] you

[01:19:40] and and there's a, [clears throat] you know, there's a tremendous um

[01:19:43] know, there's a tremendous um ingratitude. I mean, people will say,

[01:19:45] ingratitude. I mean, people will say, you know, I've swiped through 800

[01:19:46] you know, I've swiped through 800 profiles today. And you think what

[01:19:48] profiles today. And you think what you've just sort of executed as it were

[01:19:50] you've just sort of executed as it were 800 800 people are not good for you.

[01:19:52] 800 800 people are not good for you. That can't be true. It isn't true. Um

[01:19:55] That can't be true. It isn't true. Um there's likely to be lots of people in

[01:19:57] there's likely to be lots of people in that cohort that were of value. [snorts]

[01:19:59] that cohort that were of value. [snorts] But we're encouraged to look through

[01:20:01] But we're encouraged to look through such a narrow lens at at value that we

[01:20:05] such a narrow lens at at value that we end up discarding. And that leaves I

[01:20:07] end up discarding. And that leaves I think a kind of

[01:20:09] think a kind of moral hangover or sickness because we

[01:20:12] moral hangover or sickness because we know we've done something a bit

[01:20:14] know we've done something a bit disreputable.

[01:20:15] disreputable. >> What's that? uh uh judge you not lest

[01:20:17] >> What's that? uh uh judge you not lest you be judged. You have done a lot of

[01:20:19] you be judged. You have done a lot of judging so you think this is probably

[01:20:21] judging so you think this is probably happening to me too.

[01:20:22] happening to me too. >> Yeah. And so it's an it's a ultimately

[01:20:23] >> Yeah. And so it's an it's a ultimately an unkind world. Um it's you know it's

[01:20:27] an unkind world. Um it's you know it's not it's not a world that every anybody

[01:20:28] not it's not a world that every anybody particular is responsible for. Most of

[01:20:30] particular is responsible for. Most of us are are innocents on this treadmill.

[01:20:33] us are are innocents on this treadmill. But um undoubtedly I think it leads to

[01:20:36] But um undoubtedly I think it leads to moral confusion. H I wonder whether

[01:20:40] moral confusion. H I wonder whether when it comes to a relationship and

[01:20:43] when it comes to a relationship and not seeing our partner as the sole

[01:20:46] not seeing our partner as the sole source of everything that we need in

[01:20:47] source of everything that we need in this life. I wonder whether love is more

[01:20:49] this life. I wonder whether love is more about

[01:20:50] about >> uh managing disappointment than it is

[01:20:53] >> uh managing disappointment than it is about chasing joy in that way. [snorts]

[01:20:56] about chasing joy in that way. [snorts] >> Look, the thing is that we can either

[01:20:58] >> Look, the thing is that we can either have the expectations we have um or we

[01:21:00] have the expectations we have um or we can have lower ones. If we're going to

[01:21:02] can have lower ones. If we're going to stick with the expectations we have

[01:21:03] stick with the expectations we have around relationships, boy oh boy, do we

[01:21:05] around relationships, boy oh boy, do we need to do the work. And this is the

[01:21:07] need to do the work. And this is the problem of our society. We have these

[01:21:08] problem of our society. We have these sky-high expectations but a serious

[01:21:10] sky-high expectations but a serious reluctance to work at it.

[01:21:12] reluctance to work at it. >> It's like, you know, I I want my partner

[01:21:14] >> It's like, you know, I I want my partner to be, you know, my ideal co-partner,

[01:21:16] to be, you know, my ideal co-partner, chauffeur, soulmate, uh, sex partner,

[01:21:19] chauffeur, soulmate, uh, sex partner, blah, blah, blah. All these things. They

[01:21:20] blah, blah, blah. All these things. They have to register on all these fronts.

[01:21:23] have to register on all these fronts. Um, and the sole work I'm going to do

[01:21:25] Um, and the sole work I'm going to do is, you know, once in a while listen to

[01:21:27] is, you know, once in a while listen to an Esther Pel podcast and I'm going to

[01:21:28] an Esther Pel podcast and I'm going to think it's going to swing it or if that.

[01:21:30] think it's going to swing it or if that. And you think, hang on a minute. If this

[01:21:32] And you think, hang on a minute. If this was the flute and you wanted to get good

[01:21:33] was the flute and you wanted to get good at the flute, you'd be practicing three

[01:21:35] at the flute, you'd be practicing three 3 hours a day.

[01:21:36] 3 hours a day. >> So, I think there doesn't have to be

[01:21:39] >> So, I think there doesn't have to be anything wrong with the expectations we

[01:21:40] anything wrong with the expectations we have. Some people go, "Oh, you know,

[01:21:41] have. Some people go, "Oh, you know, we've got overly high expectations."

[01:21:42] we've got overly high expectations." Fine. Let's have let's have really high

[01:21:44] Fine. Let's have let's have really high expectations of relationships. Why not?

[01:21:47] expectations of relationships. Why not? But then do the work and and that means

[01:21:50] But then do the work and and that means hours and hours, daily hours of

[01:21:52] hours and hours, daily hours of practice.

[01:21:53] practice. >> Um, which involves a lot of learning and

[01:21:56] >> Um, which involves a lot of learning and a lot of Yeah. giving it a go. That

[01:21:59] a lot of Yeah. giving it a go. That wonderful line from you, compatibility

[01:22:00] wonderful line from you, compatibility is an achievement of love. It shouldn't

[01:22:02] is an achievement of love. It shouldn't be its precondition. Again, this is

[01:22:05] be its precondition. Again, this is something which can be built over time

[01:22:07] something which can be built over time as opposed to uh the entry price that

[01:22:11] as opposed to uh the entry price that needs to be paid before it starts.

[01:22:13] needs to be paid before it starts. Exactly. And and it really helps of

[01:22:14] Exactly. And and it really helps of course if the whole culture is

[01:22:15] course if the whole culture is supporting us, if the culture is

[01:22:17] supporting us, if the culture is patient, if the culture tells us, okay,

[01:22:19] patient, if the culture tells us, okay, you've had a huge argument, what happens

[01:22:21] you've had a huge argument, what happens next? Currently, we think, oh, we break

[01:22:23] next? Currently, we think, oh, we break up because we've had a we've had a

[01:22:24] up because we've had a we've had a moment of incompatibility rather than

[01:22:26] moment of incompatibility rather than this is a massive learning moment. Let's

[01:22:28] this is a massive learning moment. Let's let's go back to school on this. Let's

[01:22:30] let's go back to school on this. Let's really study this. And you know, we were

[01:22:33] really study this. And you know, we were talking earlier, we're very suggestible

[01:22:35] talking earlier, we're very suggestible creatures. We pick up our cues about the

[01:22:37] creatures. We pick up our cues about the work we should do according to societal

[01:22:39] work we should do according to societal nudges. Currently, society is not

[01:22:42] nudges. Currently, society is not particularly nudging us to work at some

[01:22:45] particularly nudging us to work at some of those rough points in in dialogues

[01:22:48] of those rough points in in dialogues with others. What would what is the

[01:22:50] with others. What would what is the subtext? What are what are the what are

[01:22:52] subtext? What are what are the what are the whispers of what societyy's saying

[01:22:54] the whispers of what societyy's saying about relationships at the moment? Do

[01:22:56] about relationships at the moment? Do you think

[01:22:57] you think >> it's basically telling us that if

[01:22:59] >> it's basically telling us that if there's a problem, it's that we found

[01:23:01] there's a problem, it's that we found somebody with red flags. They may be a

[01:23:02] somebody with red flags. They may be a narcissist. Uh they could be borderline.

[01:23:06] narcissist. Uh they could be borderline. Uh they could be, you know, emotionally

[01:23:09] Uh they could be, you know, emotionally unintelligent, etc. And therefore in the

[01:23:11] unintelligent, etc. And therefore in the bin, they they should go in the bin. I

[01:23:13] bin, they they should go in the bin. I mean, the problem with these this red

[01:23:14] mean, the problem with these this red flag language, it's all very well, but

[01:23:16] flag language, it's all very well, but if you're going to put everyone in the

[01:23:18] if you're going to put everyone in the bin who's a red flag, well, good luck to

[01:23:19] bin who's a red flag, well, good luck to you. you're not going to have many

[01:23:20] you. you're not going to have many friends. I mean, you know, there's a lot

[01:23:22] friends. I mean, you know, there's a lot of red flags around in everybody,

[01:23:24] of red flags around in everybody, including you. So, you as in me, you

[01:23:27] including you. So, you as in me, you know, and and it gets exciting when we

[01:23:30] know, and and it gets exciting when we go, okay, I own up to the red flags. Can

[01:23:32] go, okay, I own up to the red flags. Can we do something about it? And when two

[01:23:34] we do something about it? And when two people meet each other and go, I know

[01:23:36] people meet each other and go, I know I'm desperately flawed. Can we help each

[01:23:39] I'm desperately flawed. Can we help each other? I mean, the enemy of

[01:23:40] other? I mean, the enemy of relationships is self-righteousness. The

[01:23:42] relationships is self-righteousness. The enemy is defensiveness. The enemy is

[01:23:44] enemy is defensiveness. The enemy is people go, "Well, I feel like this and

[01:23:46] people go, "Well, I feel like this and you need to acknowledge that and you

[01:23:49] you need to acknowledge that and you know, this is the way it is. These are

[01:23:50] know, this is the way it is. These are my boundaries and give way. Give way and

[01:23:53] my boundaries and give way. Give way and and you know, I I've been submissive too

[01:23:56] and you know, I I've been submissive too long and this is the way it is now." You

[01:23:58] long and this is the way it is now." You want to go, "Okay, all right, maybe. But

[01:24:01] want to go, "Okay, all right, maybe. But can we can we meet halfway? Can we

[01:24:03] can we can we meet halfway? Can we somehow find a way of having a dialogue

[01:24:06] somehow find a way of having a dialogue that acknowledges we're both in a bit of

[01:24:09] that acknowledges we're both in a bit of a muddle here? both likely to be

[01:24:11] a muddle here? both likely to be carrying all sorts of, you know,

[01:24:13] carrying all sorts of, you know, difficulties, blah, blah, blah. Um, that

[01:24:16] difficulties, blah, blah, blah. Um, that kind of modesty is a saving grace. I

[01:24:18] kind of modesty is a saving grace. I mean, when that modesty kicks in, the

[01:24:19] mean, when that modesty kicks in, the angels are singing because they know

[01:24:21] angels are singing because they know that a relationship is going to be

[01:24:22] that a relationship is going to be saved.

[01:24:23] saved. >> My goodness, we waste relationships. You

[01:24:25] >> My goodness, we waste relationships. You know people people I meet people all the

[01:24:27] know people people I meet people all the time they go oh well I was together with

[01:24:28] time they go oh well I was together with eight someone for eight years and then

[01:24:29] eight someone for eight years and then you know we were squabbbling so you know

[01:24:31] you know we were squabbbling so you know I ended it or you know I was with

[01:24:33] I ended it or you know I was with someone for seven years and you know and

[01:24:34] someone for seven years and you know and you think my goodness all those shared

[01:24:36] you think my goodness all those shared jokes all those investments all that

[01:24:39] jokes all those investments all that faith and then you chuck it all in the

[01:24:41] faith and then you chuck it all in the sea and you begin again and you might do

[01:24:43] sea and you begin again and you might do this seven times in a lifetime how

[01:24:44] this seven times in a lifetime how exhausting it is. Now I'm not you know

[01:24:46] exhausting it is. Now I'm not you know it's not a plea for everyone to stay

[01:24:48] it's not a plea for everyone to stay together at all costs. Obviously, there

[01:24:49] together at all costs. Obviously, there are relationships you need to exit,

[01:24:51] are relationships you need to exit, >> but you know, there are there's serious

[01:24:54] >> but you know, there are there's serious grounds for questioning the way certain

[01:24:56] grounds for questioning the way certain of these relationships end. You think,

[01:24:58] of these relationships end. You think, [snorts] couldn't there have been a

[01:24:59] [snorts] couldn't there have been a little more patience, a little more

[01:25:01] little more patience, a little more forbearance, a little more of an

[01:25:02] forbearance, a little more of an understanding that what you were meeting

[01:25:05] understanding that what you were meeting here was not an incompatibility in one

[01:25:07] here was not an incompatibility in one person, but the scale of human intra

[01:25:12] person, but the scale of human intra confusion that you're likely to meet up

[01:25:15] confusion that you're likely to meet up anywhere. You know, rather than thinking

[01:25:17] anywhere. You know, rather than thinking you've met one particularly corrupt

[01:25:19] you've met one particularly corrupt human being, it's like, well, you've

[01:25:20] human being, it's like, well, you've just met another typical human and you

[01:25:22] just met another typical human and you go off and meet another one and in seven

[01:25:24] go off and meet another one and in seven years you'll be back to the same place.

[01:25:26] years you'll be back to the same place. >> Are there any

[01:25:28] >> Are there any questions or statements or framings that

[01:25:31] questions or statements or framings that you have found to be particularly

[01:25:34] you have found to be particularly neutralizing? You're in the midst of the

[01:25:36] neutralizing? You're in the midst of the back and forth. This is the argument.

[01:25:38] back and forth. This is the argument. Maybe it is the seven-year point that

[01:25:40] Maybe it is the seven-year point that you're deep into. Are there any uh

[01:25:45] you're deep into. Are there any uh ways of beginning a conversation or

[01:25:46] ways of beginning a conversation or interjecting into one of those

[01:25:48] interjecting into one of those disagreements that uh you have found to

[01:25:51] disagreements that uh you have found to be particularly fruitful in bringing the

[01:25:53] be particularly fruitful in bringing the energy down in the room? Of course, I

[01:25:56] energy down in the room? Of course, I mean everybody everybody knows these but

[01:25:57] mean everybody everybody knows these but it's worth repeating because we do

[01:25:58] it's worth repeating because we do forget especially at moments of crisis.

[01:26:00] forget especially at moments of crisis. You know, if you make the other PE

[01:26:02] You know, if you make the other PE person feel heard that even though their

[01:26:05] person feel heard that even though their reality is not yours, doesn't need to be

[01:26:09] reality is not yours, doesn't need to be that you have the wherewithal and the

[01:26:11] that you have the wherewithal and the patience to acknowledge, you know, they

[01:26:14] patience to acknowledge, you know, they thought you were insulting them. They

[01:26:16] thought you were insulting them. They read it as an insult. Now, you can

[01:26:18] read it as an insult. Now, you can immediately go, "No, no, it's not an

[01:26:20] immediately go, "No, no, it's not an insult. It wasn't, you know, you can

[01:26:22] insult. It wasn't, you know, you can carry on. You know, good luck to you."

[01:26:24] carry on. You know, good luck to you." You know, you can you can argue this in

[01:26:25] You know, you can you can argue this in court, but you're not going to get

[01:26:26] court, but you're not going to get anywhere. So, try another tag.

[01:26:29] anywhere. So, try another tag. Acknowledge. Okay,

[01:26:31] Acknowledge. Okay, I'm hearing that you're really insulted.

[01:26:34] I'm hearing that you're really insulted. You can then go on to go, I didn't mean

[01:26:35] You can then go on to go, I didn't mean to. This is why there but acknowledge it

[01:26:38] to. This is why there but acknowledge it first, you know. Um, and then also when

[01:26:41] first, you know. Um, and then also when you're asserting your point of view,

[01:26:43] you're asserting your point of view, don't frame it as universal. Frame it as

[01:26:46] don't frame it as universal. Frame it as coming from you. I feel from my point of

[01:26:49] coming from you. I feel from my point of view, I'm thinking that, you know, not

[01:26:52] view, I'm thinking that, you know, not you're an idiot, but in this area, I

[01:26:55] you're an idiot, but in this area, I feel softening language. Maybe, perhaps.

[01:26:58] feel softening language. Maybe, perhaps. The world's been the world can be saved

[01:26:59] The world's been the world can be saved by a few more mayes and perhapses.

[01:27:01] by a few more mayes and perhapses. They're wonderful words.

[01:27:03] They're wonderful words. >> Perhaps this or I might, not I will or I

[01:27:06] >> Perhaps this or I might, not I will or I am. I might, I may. Softening diplomatic

[01:27:10] am. I might, I may. Softening diplomatic language is goes a lot of along the way.

[01:27:13] language is goes a lot of along the way. You know that word diplomat, diplomacy,

[01:27:15] You know that word diplomat, diplomacy, we tend to think of it as a a job for

[01:27:17] we tend to think of it as a a job for specialists, you know, people who work

[01:27:18] specialists, you know, people who work in the foreign office, in the state

[01:27:20] in the foreign office, in the state department, etc. A diplomat is somebody

[01:27:23] department, etc. A diplomat is somebody who's an expert at breaking difficult

[01:27:26] who's an expert at breaking difficult news into something that another

[01:27:28] news into something that another person's going to be able to digest. And

[01:27:30] person's going to be able to digest. And we all need to be diplomats. Whatever

[01:27:32] we all need to be diplomats. Whatever our jobs, we all need to be diplomats.

[01:27:34] our jobs, we all need to be diplomats. We all need to be able to have that

[01:27:35] We all need to be able to have that capacity to to take difficult

[01:27:38] capacity to to take difficult information and get it across to another

[01:27:41] information and get it across to another person. And so often we think that the

[01:27:44] person. And so often we think that the truth is going to liberate people. If

[01:27:47] truth is going to liberate people. If you if you just tell someone the truth,

[01:27:49] you if you just tell someone the truth, they'll go, "Oh, wow. Well, then you I

[01:27:51] they'll go, "Oh, wow. Well, then you I accept it. No, no, no. You've got to get

[01:27:53] accept it. No, no, no. You've got to get around their defenses, their fears,

[01:27:56] around their defenses, their fears, their sense of threatened righteousness.

[01:27:58] their sense of threatened righteousness. >> That doesn't mean being manipulative or

[01:28:00] >> That doesn't mean being manipulative or overly flattering or obfiscating or

[01:28:02] overly flattering or obfiscating or something.

[01:28:03] something. >> It means being alive to people's panic.

[01:28:08] >> It means being alive to people's panic. There's there's, you know, whenever

[01:28:09] There's there's, you know, whenever there's an argument, there's two

[01:28:10] there's an argument, there's two frightened people in the room. And it's

[01:28:13] frightened people in the room. And it's all very well you hyping up the tension

[01:28:14] all very well you hyping up the tension and just asserting how right you are,

[01:28:16] and just asserting how right you are, but really what you need to do is to

[01:28:17] but really what you need to do is to take care of your own fear and the other

[01:28:19] take care of your own fear and the other person's fear. There's two scared

[01:28:21] person's fear. There's two scared people. All arguments are about fear.

[01:28:23] people. All arguments are about fear. And if you can drop down the level and

[01:28:25] And if you can drop down the level and go, we're not really arguing about the

[01:28:26] go, we're not really arguing about the teacup, are we? We're not really arguing

[01:28:28] teacup, are we? We're not really arguing about, you know, [laughter] we're

[01:28:30] about, you know, [laughter] we're arguing about two people's fears. If you

[01:28:32] arguing about two people's fears. If you can drop down to that fear and identify

[01:28:34] can drop down to that fear and identify what that fear is, literally ask

[01:28:36] what that fear is, literally ask yourself middle of an argument, what am

[01:28:38] yourself middle of an argument, what am I really scared of? And ask the other

[01:28:40] I really scared of? And ask the other person and also reveal it, you know, and

[01:28:43] person and also reveal it, you know, and often it's often it's very simple. I'm

[01:28:45] often it's often it's very simple. I'm scared you don't love me. I'm scared

[01:28:47] scared you don't love me. I'm scared that if I stay around here, I'm going to

[01:28:49] that if I stay around here, I'm going to be humiliated and maltreated. If you can

[01:28:52] be humiliated and maltreated. If you can say that to another person, first of

[01:28:53] say that to another person, first of all, it shifts the template. Suddenly,

[01:28:55] all, it shifts the template. Suddenly, we're not arguing about the stain on the

[01:28:56] we're not arguing about the stain on the floor. We're arguing about somebody

[01:28:59] floor. We're arguing about somebody who's a vulnerable child. Great. Really

[01:29:01] who's a vulnerable child. Great. Really good starting point cuz then we can take

[01:29:03] good starting point cuz then we can take that vulnerable child, give them a hug.

[01:29:06] that vulnerable child, give them a hug. >> Alan, you're fantastic. I adored our

[01:29:08] >> Alan, you're fantastic. I adored our conversation last year. I've adored this

[01:29:09] conversation last year. I've adored this one as well. Uh I can't wait to sit down

[01:29:12] one as well. Uh I can't wait to sit down with you again. That's that's I don't

[01:29:14] with you again. That's that's I don't have anything else to say. Thank you so

[01:29:16] have anything else to say. Thank you so much.

[01:29:17] much. >> Thank you very much for tuning in.

[01:29:18] >> Thank you very much for tuning in. Honestly, I meant what I said to Alan.

[01:29:20] Honestly, I meant what I said to Alan. That guy has been one of the biggest

[01:29:24] That guy has been one of the biggest philosophical influences on me. [music]

[01:29:25] philosophical influences on me. [music] Uh, another big one is Chris Bumstead,

[01:29:28] Uh, another big one is Chris Bumstead, also slightly bigger human than Alan.

[01:29:30] also slightly bigger human than Alan. Um, and he's available [music] right

[01:29:32] Um, and he's available [music] right here, so you should check it out.