# Clarity, Consistency, and Care: Dr. Tien Wu’s Philosophy for a Global Silicon Giant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1jJ8WVri8

[00:00] I'm going to get a bit personal today.
[00:02] with someone who may not appear on magazine covers, but his fingerprints are on nearly every chip that powers our connected world.
[00:08] He's a risktaker that made a big bet on AI before others, and now his company stands to reap the benefit for years to come.
[00:18] He's a gentleman who rarely takes credit for making the invisible essential.
[00:23] He's also a bit of a philosopher with a wide ranging opinions on technology, business, politics, and the economy.
[00:31] He's known as one of the best operators in the semiconductor industry.
[00:36] Calm under pressure, exacting in standards, and deeply human in how he leads.
[00:41] He's also one of my favorite people, and has been a trusted adviser to me for over 20 years.
[00:45] Today my guest is Tien Woo, the CEO of ASC Group, the largest semiconductor test and packaging company in the world, a quiet giant that makes modern computing possible.
[01:02] All right, Ten, it's great to have you on a bit personal podcast.
[01:06] I really appreciate it.
[01:08] It's going to be fun.
[01:08] Yeah.
[01:08] And we're at we're in Taiwan in Taipei at ASC headquarters.
[01:15] And it's great to be It's always great for me to be in Taipei.
[01:18] Although I think we're only like hours away from a typhoon.
[01:19] That's right.
[01:19] It's happening right now.
[01:23] Yeah.
[01:23] Somehow every time I come that happens.
[01:23] It's earthquake or a typhoon.
[01:25] That's right.
[01:25] In fact, I don't know if you know this, but when we when we first launched GSA, we were doing the announcement, big press conference, big event, and I'm up on stage and an earthquake happens.
[01:37] Okay.
[01:38] So, not sure what that exactly what that meant, but it's been it's been good for GSA to be here.
[01:43] So, yeah.
[01:44] Well, we like you.
[01:46] Thank you.
[01:46] Thank you.
[01:46] Okay.
[01:46] So, before we get started in talking about sort of the personal story behind your public success, I want to talk about a comment that I made in your introduction, which is that your fingerprints are on nearly every chip that powers our connected
[02:03] world.
[02:06] So tell our audience who may or may not be so familiar with semiconductors exactly why that's true and what role packaging and test plays and why they're one of the most one of the three most critical partners within the semiconductor ecosystem.
[02:21] All right.
[02:24] The um packaging you can consider to be a final integrator.
[02:29] that u the chip design um the chip manufacturing and then you will have a substrate and you'll have a printed circuit board.
[02:39] The question now is how do you pack all of this together logic memory passive uh active passive devices.
[02:49] So the packaging what we need to do is put all of this together and then test it to make sure the yield the performance is per the uh the requirement.
[03:00] So that's what packaging does in terms of the u
[03:04] asse market share it is very difficult to estimate.
[03:09] for the high-end packaging uh we have a higher market share for the legacy we have a lower market share but the in general for all of the electronic devices you will typically find a package that either has been packaged or tested by Az which is true.
[03:32] Okay. And so in the age of AI packaging I mean you hear a lot about the importance of packaging. Why is it becoming more and more important?
[03:41] Uh there are many reasons. Um the industry has evolved over the last um 70 years from a technology perspective from a manufacturing perspective you know the a lot of thing has progressed in the last 40 years. So at the beginning the Morse law where the uh most of the integration most of the performance optimization can be carried
[04:05] out at a chip level.
[04:07] Mhm.
[04:07] But over time the uh optimization at a chip singular level uh has diminished and therefore you have the subsequent Morse law.
[04:17] It's called the system mors law.
[04:20] Okay.
[04:21] Where you start looking at the optimization at a system level.
[04:23] So not only chip the materials the packages how do you put them together uh with everything all of the details which is why people are more talking about 2.5D 3D stack then the memory power management logic you start putting all of this together it's almost like the uh the city planning used to be when you have a lot of uh uh land you just build the uh single family house.
[04:55] But when the land become more scarce,
[05:00] Mhm.
[05:01] you start building high-rise.
[05:02] Okay.
[05:03] And then the uh when you have more parking lot issues, you start building
[05:07] The basement underground parking lots.
[05:10] So package is just like a city planning.
[05:13] When you have a real estate density issues, performance issue, um you just have to go underground, go 3D.
[05:21] Okay.
[05:22] And this is what packaging is happening now.
[05:24] Okay. Okay.
[05:28] So, let's let's start with the TN Woo story.
[05:30] Okay.
[05:30] Okay. So, you were born and raised in Taiwan, did the first part of your education here, and then you went to the US, got your master's, PhD, started your career, started a family, and then for many years while we've known each other, you have been commuting between the US and Taiwan, and now you're mostly here.
[05:51] Correct.
[05:54] So, I want to start at the beginning and start talking a little bit about your formative years and your childhood and what was it like to grow up in Taiwan and what maybe either individuals or circumstances or something that happened during those formative years that you can really say
[06:09] this helped me become the man I am today.
[06:13] All right.
[06:16] the um it's
[06:18] I I think your upbringing has a lot to do with your fundamental belief and over the u your your career your lifetime you try to find reinforcement to those fundamental belief uh the fundamental belief and upbringing.
[06:36] I think it does have a lot to do with uh your school system how you were raised.
[06:43] Uh, if I have to talk about my childhood, um,
[06:49] I went to a private school in Taipei, uh, kindergarten, age four.
[06:57] I stay at that school all the way to age 18.
[07:01] Wow.
[07:02] So, I attended one single school for 14 years.
[07:09] Okay.
[07:09] So I've known a lot of friends since age four.
[07:14] My sister was nine years younger than I am.
[07:18] So I have a lot of good friends that I know them earlier than I know my sister.
[07:23] Wow.
[07:24] Okay.
[07:24] So and what is unique about my this part of my life?
[07:32] I went I started living by myself at age 12.
[07:39] So at age 12, my parents moved to Hong Kong.
[07:44] So I stay in Taiwan all by myself.
[07:44] So the boarding school that I went, I actually stay in school 365 days a year, including the uh summer and winter break.
[07:59] So the I think that had a lot to do with the uh who I become later part of my life that I'm really independent
[08:09] because at age 11 to 12 you have to learn a lot of things on your own.
[08:16] So I made a lot of mistakes at the early part of my life, upset a lot of people, but along the way you learn how to read people better and then you know how to bend yourself.
[08:32] Uh otherwise either people beat you up or you don't get to eat.
[08:36] Right.
[08:36] Right.
[08:39] But you know then friends uh become very very important.
[08:43] Until today, I still hang out with many of the classmates that I knew them since age four.
[08:50] And I think that's the uh that is something quite unique.
[08:53] Not too many people have that.
[08:57] Yeah, that must I mean, was it difficult?
[08:59] I mean, it had to have been difficult to be away from your parents, not just during school, but during the holidays.
[09:04] Were you able to go to Hong Kong at all?
[09:07] Um I was able to go to Hong Kong a few
[09:09] times um between age 12 to uh age 16.
[09:15] Okay.
[09:16] And then the uh after age 16 we start entering into the uh military qualify age.
[09:25] Okay.
[09:26] So I was no longer allowed to travel.
[09:30] Uh my sister who was nine years younger than I am.
[09:34] My parents brought my sister to Hong Kong.
[09:38] Okay.
[09:38] But left me in Taiwan.
[09:42] It was very difficult at the beginning because you sort of you couldn't understand.
[09:45] Yes.
[09:46] Why you know the sister is closer to mom and dad.
[09:52] But on hindsight I think that was the best training for me ever.
[09:59] And the uh I mean I wish more people can experience that.
[10:02] But at a very very young age um your capacity of learning is is much better.
[10:09] Uh I will give you
[10:12] One example that I I rarely share with people.
[10:17] Um summer break was long like two months.
[10:23] Uh when I was all by myself in school.
[10:25] Actually I was the only one.
[10:29] Um then I had nothing to do so I start listening to the uh the American uh military broadcast station.
[10:37] Okay.
[10:38] And I start reading you know this is like age 13 14 every single summer.
[10:45] I remember I would finish one uh English book then I would recite it.
[10:52] I will just do read it out, record it and listen to my own pronunciation.
[10:58] Wow.
[10:59] And then I will try to tape the uh American radio uh which is broadcaster by real American.
[11:09] You have to understand in Taiwan learning English is a luxury.
[11:12] It's not something that you do.
[11:13] So did you I mean were you taking classes or did you just teach yourself?
[11:17] No, I taught myself.
[11:17] Wow.
[11:17] Okay.
[11:19] Because a lot of people asked me um they they they were kind of surprised that I went to university and military service.
[11:28] I only went to United States age 24.
[11:31] Um because the uh the pronunciation of any foreign language if you don't learn that before age 11 you will not have the right pronunciation.
[11:40] Right?
[11:42] I mean that linguistics says that and I was just really lucky that I start picking up you know multiple languages when I was very very young.
[11:51] Okay.
[11:52] Um the there there are other things that taught me the uh you have to do things in a very practical way.
[12:00] Uh everything is about survival and then a very very young age I learned without parents taking care of you just have to do things with people.
[12:09] uh whoever you can count on
[12:14] um at a very very young age and that helped me tremendously know especially for uh until today if you look at seat doctor industry everyone is small you're counting on ecosystem you're counting on partner
[12:29] people need to like you um you need to know what value can you bring to others in order for them to support you I mean the all knowledge our support uh is all from ecosystem.
[12:42] I mean if you look at it you know our life age 67 versus life at 12 you know really not that much different.
[12:52] Yeah. I mean that fundamental belief you need to be a likable person.
[12:55] You need to be focused and you need to be good at what you're doing and you need to really see what other people are good at and do the uh crypto crow and just to make things work in a practical way.
[13:11] I think that skills stays with me
[13:15] Uh until today.
[13:16] Right.
[13:16] Right.
[13:17] Oh, I see that.
[13:17] I see that.
[13:17] So did you you did you know that you were going to study engineering in when you went to university?
[13:25] Now the the at that age you know the uh we're talking like a really way back you know the uh in the 60s7s.
[13:36] Um Taiwan did not have that much you know or that many job opportunities.
[13:44] Right?
[13:44] So from a very young age you know my father told me that my father he went to United States for for study.
[13:50] So he told me that you know your destiny is to go to US get a PhD and in order to go to US get scholarship and that's mostly engineering because that is the easiest discipline to get funded by scholarship.
[14:07] Okay.
[14:08] So I think it was that belief that drove me to engineering.
[14:10] Um the and I knew this um I think even before age 12.
[14:17] Okay.
[14:17] Which is why I spent so much time trying to sharpen and perfect my English capability uh at a very very young age.
[14:27] That was very very unique.
[14:28] Do you remember any of those books that you recited?
[14:30] Mark Twain the uh I mean that's the classics and quite a few there there are many many books.
[14:37] Okay.
[14:38] Yeah.
[14:39] Okay.
[14:39] So then you then you leave at age 24 to go to the US.
[14:43] Correct.
[14:43] So you said that that was your destiny.
[14:46] Your father had told you that that you need to go.
[14:49] So tell us about what that journey is like from I mean obviously you're pretty used to setting things up on your own.
[14:56] So at least you didn't miss that part of um your childhood when you go to the US.
[15:01] But tell us what that kind of the emotional journey of that and how you acclimated to the US.
[15:06] Okay.
[15:06] the uh um this is like many years ago so I have to go through my recollection right u you know I went to I applied for quite a few universities
[15:19] um but the uh a few of them did not offer me scholarship.
[15:23] so I end up going to University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.
[15:28] mainly because my uncle and my aunt now they both live in Philadelphia back then.
[15:35] okay.
[15:36] so I went to UPAN and I joined the um civil engineering department.
[15:42] UPAN uh civil engineering department was the second um oldest civil engineering in United States.
[15:51] The oldest is the uh is naval academy.
[15:54] Okay.
[15:54] Right. Uh after one year I'm not sure you remember you know back to the 80s the three mile island nuclear power plant incident.
[16:03] So all of the funding on the nuclear power plant were cancelled.
[16:11] I lost my founding.
[16:15] Therefore I changed to mechanical engineering department.
[16:17] Um because the uh I found a teaching
[16:20] assistantship and this is part of the survival.
[16:23] Right.
[16:23] Right. So I was able to uh charm one of the uh mechanical and engineering professors.
[16:32] So I got scholarship and I studied the uh mechanical engineering for one year.
[16:38] Then uh again this is part of survival comment the material science department they have very good funding uh much much more than mechanical engineering department.
[16:47] So I switched to material engineering.
[16:50] So between civil engineering within a year I switched to mechanical engineering and then after another year I switched to material science.
[16:59] I end up getting my PhD in material and mechanics.
[17:05] Okay.
[17:06] And then the uh so I finished the uh PhD at UPEN and I work at pen as a posttock because I was applying for my green card at the time.
[17:16] So after I received my green card then I went to IBM.
[17:18] IBM was
[17:22] looking for mechanical specialist and material specialist and I happened to have both.
[17:29] Right.
[17:31] It's a very unique combination.
[17:31] Right.
[17:34] Therefore, I joined the uh I joined IBM Endeott.
[17:37] Uh Endicott was the starting place where IBM was funded.
[17:40] Many people don't know about it.
[17:43] Okay.
[17:44] So, I started the uh there in 1988.
[17:48] All right.
[17:49] So, that was my graduate school to my professional years.
[17:53] But there's one thing that I I am very very grateful is
[17:58] I I went to United States without knowing too many people.
[18:03] The American university system through merit they offer long-term scholarship for PhD program and postto they educate foreign student uh who has a keen desire to learn and
[18:25] then the American education system including my professors at mechanical engineering department and material science department as well as all the peers
[18:38] um unselfishly educate all foreign student not just me
[18:42] right
[18:43] and the um and that was the time you know the
[18:47] uh we had many many foreign students
[18:52] uh later on all became key contributor to the society
[18:58] but all of us myself included you know are tremendously grateful to the American generosity.
[19:07] But if you really think about it, uh I was top of the class from my elementary school, top of the class in the middle school, top of my class in high school, top my class in college.
[19:25] So all foreign countries spend
[19:27] tremendous amount of money and time.
[19:31] through the talent pool pick up that.
[19:34] 0.001% 01%.
[19:36] right.
[19:37] and then US.
[19:39] apply scholarship.
[19:43] in my case will be uh maybe uh two to $300,000 US.
[19:50] then you educate people that will make their lifetime contribution to the whole world.
[19:58] including United States.
[19:59] right.
[20:00] so from a pure investment perspective.
[20:04] I think it's a very very good investment.
[20:05] You also have the loyalty from the uh foreign students like myself.
[20:11] Right.
[20:11] Right.
[20:12] Yeah.
[20:12] I mean you look at at our industry and you look at the specifically the US the success of the US semiconductor industry over half of all of the leaders are foreign born.
[20:23] Yeah.
[20:23] You know so it's it's incredibly important.
[20:24] And so do you worry that in the US right now that you know this this
[20:29] call for less foreign students the whole
[20:32] H1 visa increase in in the cost of doing
[20:36] an H1 visa
[20:37] >> I think time is different so the policy
[20:40] needs to know be aligned with need
[20:44] >> so I cannot comment on today's scenario
[20:48] because the uh the uh
[20:50] >> you you really have to wait for 10 20
[20:52] years to look back in order to see what
[20:56] has transpired.
[20:58] Um I think the comment that I'm making
[21:00] is I received my PhD at age 29.
[21:04] Uh looking back and this is like almost
[21:07] 40 years later based on what has
[21:10] happened to me for the last 39 years.
[21:13] Mhm.
[21:14] >> Um I thank the um I am truly grateful to
[21:19] the generosity and also the foresight of
[21:22] the US systems
[21:24] >> and then they they brought up few
[21:26] generations of talent
[21:28] >> right
[21:28] >> and collectively you know I think we'll
[21:30] all contribute and try to make the US
[21:34] and also the world a better place. So I
[21:36] think that I can testify because
[21:39] >> it has been almost 40 years
[21:41] >> since I graduated.
[21:43] >> Yep. We I mean you've contributed a lot.
[21:46] >> Okay. All right. Thank you.
[21:47] >> Yeah, for sure. So So then you um you
[21:51] spend a lot of time in the US and then
[21:53] you come to work for ASSE
[21:55] >> and and again sort of commuted back and
[21:58] forth for a long period of time. Talk
[22:00] about that sequence of events why you
[22:01] joined ASSE and again it shows you know
[22:04] your loyalty. You went to the same grade
[22:07] school through high school at the same
[22:09] school and now you've been with ASSE for
[22:11] 25 years. 20 26
[22:13] >> 26 years.
[22:15] >> I I spent 13 years at IBM
[22:20] [clears throat]
[22:21] until year 2000.
[22:24] My days at IBM, it was fantastic.
[22:29] >> You have it's like the uh my my my
[22:32] feeling towards the American educational
[22:34] system. I walk into IBM is a huge
[22:38] library with technology knowows.
[22:41] Uh literally most of the things that
[22:43] we're doing today I have seen it and
[22:46] learn some aspect of it. Back to my IBM
[22:50] days people were um unselfish and it's
[22:55] like open book you know whatever you
[22:57] want to learn they will coach you. IBM
[23:01] back then um the uh very powerful
[23:05] I mean they were number one in almost
[23:08] all technological
[23:10] places.
[23:13] I changed
[23:15] six jobs. So I want to comment a little
[23:18] bit on why I change jobs almost the uh
[23:22] every two years
[23:24] >> but while at IBM
[23:26] >> correct
[23:26] >> right
[23:27] >> correct and I have switched out between
[23:30] process development like R&D
[23:34] to uh design you start designing
[23:37] substrates and then to the uh assembly
[23:40] process development like what I'm doing
[23:43] today
[23:44] then I switched to uh Europe Europe for
[23:47] manufacturing.
[23:49] Then I switched to uh Singapore,
[23:52] Asia-Pacific
[23:54] doing fuel application and also the chip
[23:57] design center.
[23:59] The reason why
[24:02] I motivate my motivated myself for
[24:06] changing job is is going back to my
[24:09] fundamental training is time is the most
[24:13] valuable asset that you have.
[24:16] Um the uh so my dad told me this when I
[24:19] was very very young. You only have time.
[24:22] Time is something you don't know how
[24:24] much you have. Uh but your unit of time
[24:28] for you is the same unit of time to
[24:31] everybody else in the world including
[24:33] the emperor.
[24:35] So use your time well. Use your time to
[24:38] change for knowledge for wisdom for love
[24:42] uh for anything that you need. Okay. So
[24:44] that's one thing. So when I was I IBM, I
[24:48] had a feeling that IBM has a wealth of
[24:51] knowledge
[24:52] that I need to move around in order to
[24:55] capture
[24:57] more aspect comparing to staying in one
[24:59] place which is why I moved from Indicar
[25:03] and then I joined task force go to
[25:05] Europe
[25:07] different field and then move to uh
[25:10] Singapore all on IBM terms.
[25:13] IBM again was generous enough to look at
[25:17] a young engineer who wants to learn and
[25:20] they provided me the opportunity but
[25:23] again I did not know anyone
[25:26] >> it's like you know I went to United
[25:27] States I didn't know anybody
[25:29] >> the educational system just picked me up
[25:33] I went to IBM no reference
[25:35] >> I did not know anybody
[25:38] um but uh the system picked me up
[25:42] >> so I I think
[25:44] my recollection about the US education
[25:47] system and IBM and it was was exactly
[25:51] the same and the uh the generosity and
[25:54] also the wealth of knowledge
[25:57] the uh back to the early days uh really
[26:00] really helped me. So I was trained US
[26:05] different jobs,
[26:07] you uh Europe different jobs and then
[26:11] the last part of the job was the almost
[26:13] a sales training. You have field
[26:15] application and the sales of substrate
[26:18] and also chip design center. I was able
[26:22] to get to know more players including
[26:25] Taiwan.
[26:26] So year 2000
[26:29] uh I decided to make that jump. Um the
[26:34] the jump was a very difficult decision.
[26:38] At a time IBM was 88 billion US dollars
[26:43] revenue.
[26:44] ASSE was 1 billion.
[26:46] >> Okay.
[26:48] >> Uh TSMC back then was five billion.
[26:53] the um so when I made that switch from
[26:56] IBM
[26:58] overseas assignment in Singapore,
[27:03] I actually took a pay cut.
[27:04] >> Okay.
[27:06] >> Because
[27:08] I think it is time for me
[27:12] to try something different.
[27:16] And that had a lot to do uh with my
[27:18] upbringing. I was born raised in Taiwan.
[27:23] And then with the IBM global training, I
[27:27] saw the opportunity of semiconductor
[27:30] manufacturing
[27:31] >> uh migrating to Asia and Taiwan.
[27:35] >> Uh IBM was doing the uh system 390 and
[27:40] software
[27:42] micro electronics and semiconductor
[27:44] manufacturing
[27:46] was not a focus for IBM. I saw that in
[27:51] year 2000.
[27:53] So from a time efficiency perspective
[27:58] uh if you cannot change the company,
[28:00] >> change your own course.
[28:02] >> Right. Right.
[28:03] >> And the uh the second thing my father
[28:05] taught me was that the uh the real
[28:09] reward
[28:11] to your time
[28:13] is knowledge.
[28:15] It is not any promotion,
[28:18] financial reward or recognition from
[28:20] anyone. So I never waited for
[28:24] recognition.
[28:25] >> Okay.
[28:25] >> In any place
[28:28] as soon as I acquired the knowledge that
[28:31] I know I got it at least I know how it
[28:34] look may not be complete but I can read
[28:38] it. I can judge. I can appreciate it. Um
[28:42] but I also know that it's not something
[28:45] I really like to devote the rest of my
[28:48] life to the job then I would move
[28:51] >> right
[28:52] >> u but once I joined the uh ASC and the I
[28:56] mean things just happened because ASC
[28:59] was a billion uh big aspiration.
[29:04] So I joined ASC as the uh head of
[29:06] marketing
[29:08] in three months they they gave me
[29:10] [clears throat] head of sales.
[29:12] >> Okay.
[29:13] So you know when you have uh this kind
[29:16] of a less structured company you have a
[29:20] different pros and cons
[29:21] >> right a lot of opportunity
[29:23] >> right and then the uh few years later
[29:26] they just make me the uh COO and then
[29:30] few years later just made me the CEO and
[29:33] then I was able to
[29:36] you know through the ASC platform start
[29:40] working with you know the whole
[29:41] ecosystem
[29:43] I mean the GSA is a well FASA back then
[29:47] was a huge part you know of my career
[29:50] because through the uh the the FSA
[29:54] I get to know a lot of people including
[29:56] you um then we build friendships and
[30:00] then the um then I'm always a a big fan
[30:04] of the semiconductor ecosystem and then
[30:07] we start making incremental smaller step
[30:11] contribution ution but over a long
[30:14] period of time and this is where we are.
[30:16] >> So 25 years in it went from 1 billion to
[30:21] >> 22. Okay.
[30:22] >> Yeah.
[30:23] >> Yeah. Good for you Tan. Right.
[30:25] >> Yeah.
[30:26] >> Thank you.
[30:26] >> So I think it's always interesting to
[30:28] work with um Taiwanese leaders because
[30:32] the companies ASSE, TSMC, so many others
[30:35] here in Taiwan really manage their
[30:38] company in what I think is a very
[30:39] Taiwanese way.
[30:41] >> Okay. Right. Um I mean you've said words
[30:43] like humility, loyalty, discipline seem
[30:47] very Taiwanese to me
[30:50] >> and yet you you're running a global
[30:52] company so you're very
[30:55] >> you know accustomed and comfortable with
[30:58] western business practices, western
[31:00] culture. I mean obviously you're a dual
[31:02] citizen. You're a US citizen and a
[31:04] Taiwanese citizen. So you're very
[31:06] comfortable in that role. But tell me if
[31:09] I'm wrong. Is there a Taiwanese way? And
[31:11] then maybe talk a little bit about the
[31:16] East West professional identity and how,
[31:19] you know, I mean, do you feel pulled in
[31:20] one way versus another or how easy is it
[31:23] to sort of shift back and forth?
[31:26] >> It it's up to the uh individual, but you
[31:29] know, the east and west are very
[31:31] different. I mean the uh I was lucky
[31:34] that um I became independent at the very
[31:38] very young age. So I sort of understand
[31:41] the uh the the the the the American
[31:44] individualism
[31:46] at a very very early stage
[31:49] comparing to the other Taiwanese family
[31:51] you know parents the uh I mean that's
[31:53] the uh the the collectivism where the
[31:56] family is a basic unit and then the uh
[32:00] company interest and the societal
[32:02] interest always supersede the individual
[32:06] interest.
[32:07] US is not completely the opposite but
[32:10] it's more towards the individualism.
[32:13] So in the early days know the uh the
[32:15] first barrier is is the language. The
[32:18] American sense of humor is very
[32:19] different from Taiwan sense of humor.
[32:22] Right? So the sarcasm
[32:24] uh jargon the uh it took me a long time
[32:27] to to understand what they're trying to
[32:30] >> to talk about it. Uh if you look at the
[32:33] Asian culture, Taiwanese culture, very
[32:36] polite
[32:37] and then in almost any circumstances the
[32:40] Taiwanese will smile at you.
[32:43] Uh, I made that mistake, you know, when
[32:45] I was in grad school and I screwed up in
[32:49] experiment and I really destroyed all of
[32:51] the samples. So, I was like really have
[32:54] this know the the most charming smile.
[32:59] Then the American professor got really
[33:01] really angry. He said this is not funny.
[33:03] [laughter]
[33:04] But that just the typical cultural
[33:08] difference because you know the
[33:10] Taiwanese will believe that if I smile
[33:12] at you at least you won't hit me.
[33:14] >> Uh but the US will look at the smile uh
[33:17] becomes situational.
[33:19] there's a lot of subtlety
[33:22] and also the business practice right the
[33:24] uh the US value
[33:26] tend to be more practical and more real
[33:29] time
[33:31] where the the Taiwanese value tends to
[33:34] be very long-term.
[33:36] So when we look at the investment in
[33:38] technology and process, it says a lot
[33:41] about why Taiwan is Taiwan today
[33:45] because we make very very long bets.
[33:48] >> The technology takes 10 to 20 years to
[33:52] be in place. I mean today people talk
[33:55] about the TSMC 3D packaging the colas
[34:00] and that was 20 years of effort.
[34:03] So it takes group of people and a group
[34:07] of ecosystem partners
[34:09] to crawl through the first 18 years with
[34:13] absolutely no glory
[34:15] >> but burning cash
[34:17] until the market is ready to take co-as
[34:21] off to a different level.
[34:24] >> If you look at the um as a matter of
[34:26] fact I can say this about the whole
[34:27] semiconductor industry. I mean if you
[34:30] look at the uh you know Nvidia how many
[34:32] years
[34:33] >> right
[34:35] >> AMD
[34:37] everybody
[34:39] well or just talk about semiconductor
[34:42] semiconductor became more appreciated
[34:44] during co
[34:46] >> but before that for the longest time at
[34:48] the FASA and the GSA remember your first
[34:50] mission is make people know doesn't like
[34:54] value
[34:54] >> right we spend money hiring consultant
[34:57] >> yes
[34:57] >> to trying to promote our industry And
[34:59] they're like Jody, nobody cares.
[35:02] >> So the engineering approach, any
[35:05] innovation, you know, it takes
[35:07] foresight,
[35:09] proactiveness
[35:11] to put the funding, resources,
[35:14] um, persistence in place and then you
[35:17] just wait for that probability that
[35:20] somewhere along the line the market is
[35:24] going to realize the benefit that you
[35:26] have solved,
[35:27] >> right? one of the key bottlenecks that
[35:30] gate in the progress of humanity as
[35:33] engineers we love it but from the
[35:36] Taiwanese perspective
[35:38] the uh I think majority of the people
[35:42] that we're dealing with in semiconductor
[35:43] industry have engineering background
[35:46] >> I mean the everybody shares the same
[35:48] view
[35:49] >> so Taiwan is more willing
[35:52] to put in long bat
[35:54] >> and so is ASSE
[35:55] >> right
[35:55] >> so AS from year 2000 000 uh we start
[35:59] setting up our revenue plan to be 10
[36:02] billion
[36:03] and that's a long view
[36:05] >> right
[36:05] >> and then the um then you start looking
[36:08] at the top down model is 10 billion
[36:11] possible if you need to hit 10 billion
[36:14] however long takes it can be 10 years
[36:17] can be 20 can be 30 years what do you
[36:20] have to do
[36:22] now when people start doing this then
[36:25] you have a very very long commitment and
[36:28] aspiration
[36:30] >> then you tend to bring intrinsic loyalty
[36:34] to the organization because you know the
[36:36] you would like to finish what you
[36:38] started
[36:39] >> right right
[36:40] >> and the um in Dallas that's how you know
[36:44] I stay here for 25 years counting
[36:47] >> so let's let's hone in on the the risk
[36:50] aspect for a moment so risk is
[36:52] definitely part of the the DNA of our
[36:54] industry right
[36:55] >> so chip companies product companies
[36:58] spend five to seven years designing a
[37:00] product for a market that doesn't exist
[37:02] and for customers that don't exist and
[37:03] then on top of that ASSE is making a bet
[37:06] on their bet not even your own right but
[37:08] dependent upon them
[37:10] >> and then additionally you have a
[37:12] cyclical market where you typically have
[37:15] to invest the most in a down market and
[37:18] I think that sort of that cyclicality is
[37:20] becoming less and less appreciated these
[37:22] days but it's a very cyclical industry
[37:24] so you've had to make a lot of those big
[37:26] bets
[37:27] So tell me the process that you go
[37:29] through and and maybe specifically
[37:31] address the process
[37:34] that the decision that you made to go
[37:37] into China, exit China and then AI those
[37:42] kind of three three bets.
[37:44] >> Okay. The uh big big questions the uh
[37:46] okay let's do the uh let's do the u the
[37:50] cyclicality and the uh and the overall
[37:53] top down model first. I think you're
[37:56] asking the fundamental
[37:59] premises on what how outsourcing a
[38:02] foundry works
[38:04] >> initially you have IDM
[38:07] and you have the later on fabulous so
[38:10] IDM needs to deal with cyclicality and
[38:12] also the market acceptance which is the
[38:15] probability of success and the timing
[38:17] versus investment
[38:19] and that's where the um the the foundry
[38:22] model start emerging
[38:24] and then the foundry model together with
[38:27] the fabulous. Okay, so the idea is very
[38:30] simple, right? You will build a grand
[38:32] hotel with many rooms,
[38:36] but you'll be serving, let's just say
[38:37] you have a 200 rooms in a hotel. Then
[38:40] you need to have 2,000 clients.
[38:43] So which one of the 2,000 on which day
[38:47] they want to check in their hotel? You
[38:49] don't know. But the hotel is ready right
[38:53] now. If more than 200 people showed up,
[38:56] you build another hotel. Okay. So the
[38:59] foundry model which is the outsourcing
[39:01] model are fundamentally different
[39:06] is less glorious.
[39:08] However, you have more diversity and
[39:12] more clientele that you can tap into.
[39:16] And you described a few things like in
[39:18] our industry you go back to the old days
[39:20] the computer the communication they have
[39:22] a different launch cycle.
[39:25] So like cell phone some company is the
[39:28] first half of the year is hot some other
[39:31] product is the second half of the year
[39:33] is hot and then even year odd year you
[39:36] just don't know
[39:36] >> right
[39:37] >> but if you have enough clients they will
[39:40] bring enough volume to you to always
[39:43] make you full okay so if you believe the
[39:46] industry is growing so this is really
[39:48] the top down they have to decide the
[39:50] industry is growing over the next
[39:54] seven years. Seven years being the uh
[39:57] the depreciation cycle for Taiwan. Other
[40:00] country can be 10 years can be shorter.
[40:05] In that cycle of time, if you think the
[40:08] market is growing, then you should put
[40:10] in the capacity. You might not be able
[40:12] to use it in the first year or the
[40:15] second year, but over a longer period of
[40:18] time,
[40:19] >> it will be used.
[40:21] >> And that's the first. The second one is
[40:25] depending on what capacity you put it
[40:27] in.
[40:28] For example, if you put in really
[40:30] advanced capacity,
[40:33] the lifetime of this capacity will be
[40:36] longer than five years or 10 years.
[40:40] when you start building a pyramid like
[40:42] in the case of ASSE AS has about 30,000
[40:46] wire boundaries
[40:49] and out of which I would say about
[40:51] 25,000 is fully depreciated and we're
[40:53] still using it. So you start adding
[40:56] 2,000 or 3,000 wire bounder every year
[41:00] that you still have depreciation
[41:02] schedule but the majority depends on how
[41:06] many years have you done this in the
[41:08] case of ASC for 30 years we have a lot
[41:11] of equipment that are fully depreciated
[41:15] but still being utilized
[41:18] and the industry you just need to find
[41:20] enough customer
[41:22] with a diverse demand
[41:25] that can fill all of your line ideally
[41:29] all the time. The reality doesn't work
[41:31] that way. [snorts]
[41:32] But in the outsourcing model, I really
[41:36] believe fundamentally it is easier to
[41:38] make investment comparing to a product
[41:44] segment
[41:45] >> specific
[41:46] >> right
[41:47] >> company. I think we talk about the IDM
[41:50] versus fabulous
[41:51] >> very different mindset 2000.
[41:53] >> Yes. Right. Um, okay. Now, let me talk
[41:57] about the uh the the AI next. AI I
[42:01] believe is at the beginning. I mean, we
[42:03] can debate about it, right? I think a
[42:05] lot of the technology integration
[42:08] or at the onset of a huge paradigm
[42:11] shift.
[42:13] The data center, you know, US,
[42:15] worldwide, it could be taking a
[42:18] different form and shape, but the demand
[42:21] is going to be there. And then there
[42:23] will be edge and it could be robotics
[42:26] and could be humanoid and could be the
[42:29] uh autonomous driving. But with all of
[42:32] this demand
[42:34] I think they would demand similar
[42:36] capacity
[42:38] and the capacity uh majority of the
[42:41] capacity are fungeable. So for any
[42:44] company to put in that kind of capacity
[42:47] assuming in the next 20 years AI will be
[42:51] growing. So that decision becomes much
[42:55] easier then the trick becomes
[42:58] uh how do you know what capacity to put
[43:00] it in
[43:02] >> that will be the leading edge
[43:03] >> right
[43:04] >> and will be the highest sought after
[43:06] capacity. I think that is in the in in
[43:09] in the judgment call.
[43:12] The uh more complicated question is the
[43:15] uh is the China.
[43:18] China drives
[43:21] huge part of the consumer market.
[43:24] They have technology, they have
[43:26] innovation
[43:28] and they have a huge consumer base to
[43:31] advertise whatever investment they can
[43:33] put it in. China has been
[43:37] immensely successful success you need to
[43:42] judge uh from whose perspective I'm
[43:45] talking about China perspective led
[43:48] >> panel
[43:50] [snorts]
[43:52] um solar
[43:54] tremendously
[43:56] successful
[43:57] even for the legacy parts battery
[44:01] electrical vehicle it's just a powerful
[44:04] economy
[44:06] in the early days know we we look at the
[44:08] China we we have to be there
[44:12] the decision for ASC to get out of China
[44:16] uh there's only one reason which is the
[44:18] geopolitical
[44:20] >> majority of ASC's revenue all right um
[44:25] comes from US
[44:27] we have to be really mindful of the US
[44:31] customers interest
[44:33] and their requirement
[44:35] Okay. Uh but more than that, if you look
[44:40] at all of the bottleneck technology and
[44:42] the key partner were counting on,
[44:45] they're primarily American.
[44:47] >> Right. Okay.
[44:48] >> So if we lose the trust of the American
[44:52] customer,
[44:54] we are no longer part of that ecosystem
[44:57] where we can get a priority knowledge
[44:59] about the future pipeline and
[45:02] bottleneck.
[45:03] Then we will lose the ability to put in
[45:07] the innovative infrastructure and
[45:09] technology such that 10 15 years down
[45:12] the road we can solve the bottleneck.
[45:15] >> Right?
[45:16] >> Then we lost the whole outsourcing model
[45:19] because outsourcing model is is not
[45:22] capacity. It's capacity that can be used
[45:26] for a long period of time. Mhm.
[45:29] >> So the long-term value drives the
[45:32] decision, you know, why we have to uh
[45:35] move out of China. A very painful
[45:38] decision, right? And uh
[45:41] >> I don't think that's healthy.
[45:43] However,
[45:45] in a very practical way, we have to
[45:48] adjust to the boundary conditions,
[45:51] >> you know, the um at a time. And today we
[45:55] make that decision. um then we have to
[45:57] live by that decision.
[45:59] >> This episode is brought to you by GSME.
[46:02] GSME is a leading global provider of
[46:05] tailored silicon solutions dedicated to
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[46:10] companies with cuttingedge technology
[46:12] and unparalleled expertise. Founded in
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[46:50] >> Yeah. I mean, let let's spend a little
[46:51] bit more time on geopolitics. I'll I'll
[46:53] try not to get you in too much trouble.
[46:54] Right. Okay.
[46:55] >> Okay. So, but yes, we have been talking
[46:59] about the criticality of semiconductors
[47:00] for years, you and I, and the whole GSA.
[47:03] And suddenly in 2020, we became
[47:06] interesting. and that we became also I
[47:11] mean we're the center of the bullseye
[47:12] which again it's sort of good news bad
[47:14] news people finally appreciate
[47:16] semiconductors but they also want a lot
[47:19] of say in everything that goes on so the
[47:22] policy makers so let's talk a little bit
[47:25] about that first help our audience to
[47:27] understand why Taiwan plays such an
[47:31] outsized role in the semiconductor
[47:34] ecosystem and maybe if you can make
[47:36] people feel comfortable that that's okay
[47:39] or no there is something to be concerned
[47:41] about. All right. The uh again my my
[47:46] angle you know might might not be the
[47:48] correct angle
[47:50] right because I was educated in US and
[47:53] then the most of the uh partner that I
[47:56] have are either American, European,
[47:59] Japanese
[48:01] um the um and some Chinese company also
[48:04] help us but majority is really the u the
[48:07] the American and European.
[48:11] So when we receive this kind of value
[48:15] that help us to do very long-term
[48:18] planning
[48:19] and the I mean I I can speak on behalf
[48:21] of ASC but I think the whole Taiwan
[48:23] ecosystem is very close to that
[48:27] description that I just made.
[48:29] >> Okay.
[48:31] So in that regard,
[48:34] Taiwan becomes Taiwan
[48:37] is because
[48:39] US made us this way.
[48:41] >> Right?
[48:43] It's the collective decision and the
[48:46] collective uh contribution
[48:50] between all US European global customer
[48:54] and the Taiwan team
[48:57] uh through technology innovation
[48:59] investment and all of the business
[49:02] fundamental and the fabrics.
[49:05] So Taiwan did not emerge
[49:08] becomes Taiwan by Taiwanese itself. If
[49:11] you look at technology, um, cadence,
[49:15] synopsis,
[49:17] equipment, I mean, I can just go on,
[49:20] >> right?
[49:20] >> Materials,
[49:22] know how, architecture, design,
[49:26] um, the, uh,
[49:29] US controls huge part of that value
[49:33] system.
[49:35] If you look at the market cap of all
[49:38] semiconductor company
[49:40] like you know in 2025
[49:43] I can just name one company you know how
[49:46] many trillions of market cap
[49:48] >> uh that has improved
[49:51] >> and I think it's also I think that it's
[49:53] like something like over 50% of the
[49:56] profits from the industry all come from
[49:58] the US
[49:59] >> so so Taiwan
[50:01] is like ASSE
[50:03] is a success enabler
[50:07] >> for the global players
[50:09] to reap the maximum benefit
[50:13] in the most efficient way,
[50:15] >> right?
[50:16] >> To build future infrastructure,
[50:20] IP
[50:22] knowhow and also the evolution or
[50:26] revolution.
[50:28] I think Taiwan manufacturing
[50:31] in a big way promotes that efficiency
[50:36] and the uh accelerator.
[50:40] So if you just want to look at Taiwan
[50:42] capacity and I can give you a very
[50:45] simple analogy semiconductor revenue
[50:49] this year I mean we don't know yet. I
[50:52] will call this like maybe less than 700
[50:55] billion but let's just make it that way.
[50:58] If you just call 40% to be
[51:00] manufacturing, I think I'm
[51:01] overestimating.
[51:02] >> It's a 250 280 billion. If you look at
[51:06] Taiwan, you know, TSMC plus everybody
[51:09] else, no, less than 200 billion.
[51:12] And US is asking for 20%.
[51:16] Or 15%, whatever. So out of the 200
[51:20] billion, like I say 25%, you know, you
[51:23] have 50 billion.
[51:27] uh and then the whole Taiwan ecosystem
[51:30] is trying to facilitate this
[51:32] >> like TSMC asse and many other has
[51:35] already committed we're going to do this
[51:38] but the dollar value
[51:40] is 50 billion the national security and
[51:44] the supply chain resilience value is
[51:47] much higher
[51:47] >> okay
[51:48] >> that I cannot judge right but in one
[51:51] year alone in 2025
[51:54] between software company, AI company,
[51:59] what was the market cap increase
[52:04] 10 trillion
[52:06] perspective.
[52:07] >> Right. Right.
[52:08] >> Right. And Taiwan is very strong in
[52:11] manufacturing process optimization
[52:15] that requires a lot of engineers to work
[52:17] on a priority bottleneck like the whole
[52:21] ecosystem is working on silicon
[52:23] photonics
[52:24] uh power management uh large panel I'm
[52:28] getting more jarens now but we are
[52:31] solving bottleneck that we do not know
[52:35] when will the bottleneck becomes an
[52:36] issue
[52:37] >> right But because we're engineers by
[52:40] training, we also talk to the smartest
[52:43] people architect
[52:46] in US and Europe and Japan and China. So
[52:49] we understand as engineers if you have a
[52:53] long-term value in mind,
[52:56] you will drive the company and your team
[52:59] to do the right thing
[53:01] >> not for Taiwan, not for semiconductor
[53:03] but for the world.
[53:04] >> Right?
[53:06] So if you look at Taiwan, what happened
[53:08] in the last 40 years and I just
[53:10] described it. A bunch of people
[53:14] largely educated Taiwan or outside of
[53:16] Taiwan came back and putting the uh
[53:20] venture capital dollar and start working
[53:22] with the smartest people, identify the
[53:25] need and then take the chance and
[53:28] probability.
[53:29] >> Some work, some didn't.
[53:32] and all of a sudden you know you're
[53:33] dealing with one atometer you know
[53:35] dealing with co-ass and uh and the
[53:39] future robotics there are many many
[53:41] problem that we need to solve so Taiwan
[53:44] manufacturing
[53:46] I believe is an asset to facilitate
[53:51] the progression and the acceleration
[53:55] of the strongest economy and that is the
[53:59] US economy if you believe AI I can give
[54:03] you a this is not right but let's just
[54:06] say make it easy if AI can promote or
[54:10] improve 5% or 10% some people say 30%
[54:15] >> of the global efficiency
[54:19] then you 30 trillion
[54:21] so how much efficiency
[54:24] >> right
[54:24] >> AI infrastructure and innovation can
[54:28] improve so that's one side.
[54:31] So, do you want to slow down or do you
[54:34] want to accelerate
[54:37] is up to the whole ecosystem and the
[54:40] government?
[54:41] >> I think the approach is correct. We want
[54:44] to preserve the integrity of the supply
[54:47] chain while
[54:50] reinforcing the extra safety net on us
[54:54] self-reliance. Right?
[54:56] >> I think this is the right strategy. I'm
[54:58] fully supportive of that. But I think
[55:00] people needs to put things pros and cons
[55:05] uh investment priority goal. Um it just
[55:10] engineering perspective without
[55:11] commenting on politics which we are no
[55:15] expert and we can be really really off
[55:18] >> but I again I'm looking at strictly from
[55:22] a practical efficiency engineering
[55:24] perspective. So you must also get pulled
[55:27] in a lot of different directions. Okay?
[55:29] Because you know you understand what's
[55:32] happening in the US and but right now
[55:35] you're seeing semiconductor strategies
[55:39] certainly in every region sometimes in
[55:41] every country and now this new
[55:43] discussion about sovereign semiconductor
[55:45] policy. I mean can the semiconductor it
[55:49] seems an untenable situation
[55:51] >> uh I I won't say this uh unattainable
[55:54] you know the uh again we we can only
[55:57] judge based on what has transpired so if
[56:00] you ask me about semiconductor model for
[56:03] the last 30 40 years I can really
[56:04] articulate but for the next 10 years I
[56:07] mean that's why it's so exciting because
[56:10] we just don't know
[56:11] >> right
[56:12] >> right and I think the uh you know the u
[56:16] this
[56:17] sovereign
[56:19] um supply chain. I think it's discount
[56:22] between the efficiency
[56:24] versus the uh safety or the security.
[56:28] I don't think
[56:30] I'm certainly not qualified to make any
[56:32] comments. Right. So what we can do is to
[56:35] work with our key customer and then the
[56:38] key customer will have the obligation to
[56:41] work with the government.
[56:43] >> Right. Right. So when the key customer
[56:45] bring the request listen we want you to
[56:47] do this then we will look at the most
[56:50] efficient way
[56:52] >> to get that mission accomplished.
[56:55] Um but at the same time
[56:59] I think a real engineer will think about
[57:02] the uh uh the engineering value for the
[57:06] world as top priority
[57:07] >> right
[57:08] >> and then you go down the list
[57:10] then you try to better define your
[57:12] initial condition and the boundary
[57:14] condition
[57:15] uh the uh you know we need to be we need
[57:17] to abide to the law
[57:19] >> right
[57:19] >> but within that
[57:22] permissible the uh uh arena how do we
[57:27] manage the most efficient way because
[57:29] engineering training 101 is how do you
[57:33] come up with the most elegant solution
[57:35] >> right
[57:35] >> in the shortest amount of time I mean
[57:37] that's it's like medical doctor your job
[57:39] is to save people engineering is to
[57:42] provide the most elegant solution
[57:45] >> but what you're saying is no today we we
[57:47] can't always exercise the most elegant
[57:50] solution we got that
[57:52] >> we got that but you know the elegant
[57:54] solution
[57:55] uh evolves with time and the boundary
[57:58] constraint
[57:58] >> right
[57:58] >> we got that too
[58:00] >> so when you when you do look forward um
[58:03] let's say look forward to 2030 okay not
[58:06] so far away
[58:07] >> and I can remember I can remember
[58:09] actually being in a dinner with you the
[58:11] first time that we heard by 2030 we're
[58:13] going to have a trillion dollar industry
[58:15] think we were together and anyway so um
[58:17] tell me what you think the world looks
[58:19] like in 2030 again only you know four
[58:23] years away, 5 years away. And
[58:28] you know, maybe from the perspective of
[58:29] yes, geopolitics, but also where AI
[58:33] comes in. And you know, I mean, we're in
[58:35] the technology industry. We've created a
[58:37] lot of things we can be really proud of,
[58:39] but there's a lot of things in that were
[58:41] caused by technology that are unintended
[58:43] consequences. I mean, everything from,
[58:45] you know, social media separating us and
[58:48] causing harm to young people. So what
[58:51] are some of maybe the unintended
[58:53] consequences that you think that we'll
[58:55] have to look at in 2030? So geopolitics,
[58:59] AI, what does 2030 look like?
[59:01] >> Uh okay, you you're you're asking a
[59:04] loaded question. The u you know I'm
[59:08] engineer responsible for for
[59:10] manufacturing.
[59:12] So I think I can
[59:15] I can give you my version of the
[59:18] projection for 2030
[59:21] and I think the uh the data center will
[59:24] go through a few generations of
[59:26] efficiency the architecture in the way
[59:29] you link and also you do the power and
[59:33] that's a huge opportunity for everybody
[59:36] uh to invent and to produce.
[59:41] It will be some AI edge devices. I think
[59:45] you're seeing the uh quite a few very
[59:48] very innovative like the uh the AirPods
[59:51] today. You can do direct translation
[59:54] uh self-driving vehicle I think will be
[59:57] more pervasive.
[01:00:00] The industrial robots we already know
[01:00:02] how powerful they are the drones but
[01:00:06] then you will see the uh the humanoids
[01:00:09] which is the robots that can directly
[01:00:12] interface with human beings and
[01:00:13] performing more human needs.
[01:00:17] So by 2030
[01:00:19] uh without knowing the details I think
[01:00:22] one trillion dollars for semiconductor
[01:00:25] is very very achievable. Mhm.
[01:00:28] >> We need to solve a few engineering
[01:00:30] bottlenecks along the way. Even with all
[01:00:33] of the global constraints, I still
[01:00:35] believe the ecosystem will facilitate
[01:00:38] that.
[01:00:39] In terms of the negative consequences,
[01:00:42] it's like all innovation in history of
[01:00:45] time.
[01:00:47] We just have to learn uh how to cope
[01:00:50] with the AI uh job opportunities
[01:00:55] uh have to have in terms of young
[01:00:57] people, social media or the uh the media
[01:01:02] fake news or any kind of uh chaotic
[01:01:05] orders. I think we have to deal with
[01:01:07] that
[01:01:09] evolved reality along the way. I don't
[01:01:12] think we should stop the technical
[01:01:16] progression
[01:01:18] because fear of human might not learn
[01:01:22] how to use it properly. I think the
[01:01:25] history of time has taught us that we
[01:01:28] always figure out how to navigate and we
[01:01:31] will make mistakes just like you know
[01:01:33] any human beings
[01:01:34] >> right
[01:01:34] >> as we're growing up. uh making mistakes
[01:01:38] is a very effective way of learning. Uh
[01:01:42] so I think the human being collectively
[01:01:45] we need to go through that uh maturing
[01:01:48] process. Yeah. 2030
[01:01:51] uh I'm hopeful and uh I hope I can see
[01:01:55] in my career time of 2030
[01:01:59] um but I think in my lifetime you know
[01:02:02] we will see uh more fun devices uh
[01:02:06] running around and trying to provide the
[01:02:09] uh better need
[01:02:10] >> okay
[01:02:10] >> to all of us that's why we're doing what
[01:02:14] we're doing today
[01:02:15] >> right
[01:02:16] okay so let's let's switch gears and
[01:02:18] talk a little bit about um about your
[01:02:20] leadership and your leadership style.
[01:02:22] I've um had the opportunity to watch
[01:02:25] your leadership in action and I know a
[01:02:28] lot of people who work directly for you
[01:02:29] and of course a lot of your partners and
[01:02:31] customers and many of them say he is an
[01:02:35] empathetic leader.
[01:02:37] So what do you think that that means and
[01:02:39] is that something that comes natural to
[01:02:40] you? And then how do you balance being
[01:02:42] an empathetic leader with being with the
[01:02:45] whole accountability portion of
[01:02:47] management?
[01:02:49] All right. The uh I think what they say
[01:02:51] that I'm empathetic leader is like I
[01:02:54] never yelled at anybody. I mean I get
[01:02:57] angry and all the uh quite often but in
[01:03:01] my career time
[01:03:03] I actually don't remember I yelled at
[01:03:05] anybody.
[01:03:06] um high pressure job meetings
[01:03:10] any kind of disputes I I just don't get
[01:03:13] angry
[01:03:16] that that is not empathy right the um
[01:03:21] because I want to be a likable person I
[01:03:24] mean this is my part of my Taiwanese
[01:03:25] training you know always smile at people
[01:03:28] and you want to provide very long-term
[01:03:29] value so people will trust you as a
[01:03:33] partner or as a trend
[01:03:37] the question about accountability and
[01:03:39] also the uh the the empathy uh uh
[01:03:43] becomes difficult to to answer.
[01:03:46] Let me try to answer from the uh from
[01:03:49] the time efficiency perspective. Okay,
[01:03:54] again this is going back to my
[01:03:55] fundamental belief that uh you need to
[01:03:58] be very wise investing your time. Okay,
[01:04:02] for example, I have a a classical
[01:04:05] scenario.
[01:04:07] You have three type of employees
[01:04:10] or three type of projects. Doesn't
[01:04:12] matter. A a a a superb outperformer,
[01:04:17] mid-range and the poor performer.
[01:04:21] And how do you drive?
[01:04:24] How do you spend your time? It can be
[01:04:27] customer. can be fantastic customer,
[01:04:29] medium customer and bad customer, right?
[01:04:32] All right. So, how do you deal with this
[01:04:34] thing? All right. The um my philosophy
[01:04:37] has been what is the most efficient way
[01:04:40] to use your time?
[01:04:42] Okay. Therefore, I tend to do I will
[01:04:46] spend majority of my time on the best
[01:04:49] performer
[01:04:51] because if I can make the best performer
[01:04:54] 10% better, that gain
[01:04:58] is huge.
[01:05:01] >> I will spend less time
[01:05:04] on the median.
[01:05:07] The median performer has their need in
[01:05:10] or any organization.
[01:05:13] They're serving function
[01:05:15] and less vocal
[01:05:19] but they have value. So you need to
[01:05:21] spend that time to realize why medium
[01:05:25] performer medium customer
[01:05:28] become who they are. So the empathy
[01:05:31] comes in from this perspective that you
[01:05:34] need to be able to see what they see
[01:05:39] for the last segment. That is the most
[01:05:41] difficult one. M
[01:05:43] >> if you're really empathetic leader
[01:05:46] not only you will spend time to see what
[01:05:48] they see then you will find time to
[01:05:52] relocate them.
[01:05:54] Maybe this is the wrong job for you.
[01:05:57] Your skill should be a designer. You
[01:05:59] shouldn't be a sales or you should be a
[01:06:01] sales. You should be an engineer or you
[01:06:04] should maintain a machine just one
[01:06:06] machine and gets to be very good at it
[01:06:09] or you should be going out and become a
[01:06:13] marketing people
[01:06:14] >> because you love dealing with people.
[01:06:16] You love deal with different scenario.
[01:06:19] Everybody has a different aspiration. So
[01:06:21] the empathy really comes in. Are you
[01:06:24] willing to invest your time?
[01:06:28] The s the the the the super performer
[01:06:32] are super performer because they love
[01:06:34] the job.
[01:06:36] >> So you will facilitate them to do their
[01:06:39] job better. The medium has reason. They
[01:06:43] become less aggressive, more
[01:06:44] conservative and the poor one also have
[01:06:49] their reason. sometimes even stronger
[01:06:51] reason than the first and the second
[01:06:53] group.
[01:06:54] >> Okay.
[01:06:55] >> So I will invest my time to change their
[01:06:58] job or advise them to change companies.
[01:07:05] I have gone through
[01:07:08] Taiwan to US IBM six different jobs
[01:07:13] and coming back to ASC 18 countries
[01:07:17] globally. I've tried many many different
[01:07:20] things.
[01:07:21] The empathy really come in from only one
[01:07:24] thing. You're willing to invest the time
[01:07:28] to see what other people sees. And
[01:07:31] that's very difficult.
[01:07:32] >> But 90% of the time if you can see what
[01:07:35] other people see you then you understand
[01:07:38] >> right
[01:07:38] >> then you have a much much more effective
[01:07:41] way to change the course for that
[01:07:45] particular group or that particular
[01:07:47] individual. I'm not sure this is making
[01:07:48] any sense.
[01:07:49] >> Yeah.
[01:07:50] >> But I really advise my team and myself,
[01:07:52] you never get angry.
[01:07:55] Anger
[01:07:57] very often is not the most effective way
[01:07:59] of solving problems. But empathy is not
[01:08:04] be nice, not to not yell at people. Are
[01:08:08] you willing to invest the time? When
[01:08:10] people know that you really care, they
[01:08:13] will open up more to you. And the same
[01:08:15] thing with customer. a very very
[01:08:17] difficult customer. If you can really
[01:08:19] understand why they're so frustrated
[01:08:22] once they know that you really care,
[01:08:23] they will open up more to you and you
[01:08:26] learn
[01:08:26] >> right
[01:08:27] >> and either this is not the right
[01:08:29] customer for you or you realize you
[01:08:32] really have a bottleneck they have not
[01:08:34] solved or you're putting the wrong
[01:08:37] people managing this particular account.
[01:08:40] So I think empathy takes more time.
[01:08:45] >> But if you have a two years horizon,
[01:08:49] you might not be able to do this. But if
[01:08:51] you have a 20 years horizon that you're
[01:08:54] willing to invest your time, it's a long
[01:08:57] answer to
[01:08:58] >> to a very very difficult.
[01:08:59] >> Does that is it something that comes
[01:09:01] natural to you? I guess has something to
[01:09:04] do with how I was brought up
[01:09:06] >> because like a 12 year old uh live by
[01:09:09] itself like every Saturday and Sunday
[01:09:12] you know if you're not nice you don't
[01:09:14] get feed [laughter]
[01:09:15] >> you don't get food right
[01:09:17] >> right
[01:09:17] >> um but then you know I mean then
[01:09:21] Taiwanese
[01:09:23] you know with half English you went to
[01:09:25] US you're trying to get scholarship
[01:09:28] competing with the brightest of the
[01:09:29] brightest then you join IBM Then the u a
[01:09:33] lot of people from good schools and then
[01:09:36] the uh they're very very comfortable.
[01:09:37] They have the the their own religious
[01:09:40] group congregation you know the uh
[01:09:43] cultural heritage
[01:09:46] and then the uh I had none.
[01:09:48] >> Um but then you know gives you the
[01:09:51] courage and the curios curiosity to see
[01:09:54] what other people are really like. And I
[01:09:57] remember I went to Europe, you know,
[01:09:59] England and Italy and then went to
[01:10:02] Singapore and I while I was Singapore
[01:10:04] for almost four years, I went to Japan,
[01:10:08] you know, the once every month, China,
[01:10:11] Taiwan and then the uh, you know, the
[01:10:14] Korea and China.
[01:10:17] Each region is different.
[01:10:19] >> Everybody sees a different aspect,
[01:10:22] >> right,
[01:10:23] >> of the same issues. So when you talk to
[01:10:26] you know east and west or even Taiwanese
[01:10:30] versus Chinese you get a very different
[01:10:32] answer. The Japanese way of looking
[01:10:34] things and Korean ways of looking things
[01:10:36] are very different.
[01:10:37] >> I mean there's no right or wrong
[01:10:39] >> right you need to understand
[01:10:41] >> are you willing to
[01:10:42] >> put in the time
[01:10:45] not being able to solve all problems
[01:10:48] >> right
[01:10:48] >> but at least you understand
[01:10:50] >> you understand the difference. uh if you
[01:10:53] do this then you filter
[01:10:57] naturally becomes bigger. So you know
[01:10:59] we're managing a lot of things. If you
[01:11:02] have a very small filter
[01:11:05] then a lot of things sticky.
[01:11:07] >> If you have a very large filter you know
[01:11:09] the uh it helps your stress level your
[01:11:12] mental sanity.
[01:11:14] >> Right. Right.
[01:11:15] >> So that's how
[01:11:16] >> that's how I it's not like I don't get
[01:11:18] angry. I train myself to have a bigger
[01:11:21] filter and then I say okay I have a
[01:11:24] problem here. What is the most effective
[01:11:27] way to address this issue? My mind in im
[01:11:31] immediately switched to well how do I
[01:11:33] solve this issue? You know I I never
[01:11:36] spent any time revenge
[01:11:39] or the uh the vengeance is just a very
[01:11:42] negative thing to do
[01:11:43] >> right a lot of ne negative energy. I I
[01:11:45] have a lot of problems that are
[01:11:47] unsolvable and I just decided just to
[01:11:51] let it go,
[01:11:52] >> right?
[01:11:53] >> Uh I don't dwell on it. Um but it's a
[01:11:56] very difficult training. Is it natural?
[01:11:58] >> No, it's not natural. But it's a it's
[01:12:01] something you train
[01:12:02] >> if you want to do bigger job uh with
[01:12:05] more diversity,
[01:12:07] you almost have to go through the
[01:12:10] similar type of training. I mean the uh
[01:12:12] the the the easier you can be trained,
[01:12:15] you learn the lesson, the lesson won't
[01:12:17] be repeated,
[01:12:18] >> right? So you've you've been around a
[01:12:21] lot of amazing leaders in your life like
[01:12:23] I have as well. And
[01:12:25] >> so who are some of the maybe the top two
[01:12:27] or three best leaders you've ever worked
[01:12:29] with and what did they maybe have in
[01:12:31] common and maybe differentiated them
[01:12:32] from other probably really good leaders
[01:12:35] but not the greatest? I I would talk
[01:12:37] about listen it's a it's it's
[01:12:40] unanswerable questions right the I mean
[01:12:43] I mean I've I've known so many I even
[01:12:47] hate to mention their names but you know
[01:12:49] uh quite a few character just emerged uh
[01:12:52] the uh in my in my mind
[01:12:55] they're they're very transparent
[01:12:59] they're not afraid
[01:13:02] to concede their mistake or their
[01:13:05] weakness
[01:13:07] and they empathy.
[01:13:09] They're willing to put your perspective,
[01:13:11] your interest
[01:13:13] uh above theirs
[01:13:16] on the time they allocated to you to
[01:13:18] talk. Some of the most amazing leader
[01:13:21] when they talk to to me, you know, I
[01:13:23] mean my early days or even today is uh
[01:13:26] they really care about you. So they want
[01:13:28] to understand you know why are you
[01:13:31] coming to me
[01:13:33] >> and what is your ask and then they're so
[01:13:38] wise they can immediately zoom in to
[01:13:42] understand why did you post the question
[01:13:44] the way you posed
[01:13:47] and um I think that is the kind of
[01:13:49] capability which is
[01:13:51] >> so unique
[01:13:53] I mean you have that that ability too um
[01:13:57] there are too many good people good in
[01:14:01] different way.
[01:14:01] >> Right. Right.
[01:14:02] >> Right. And then the uh I mean I have
[01:14:04] benefit so much from talking to you know
[01:14:09] all of them.
[01:14:10] >> So what about a mentor? Did you have a
[01:14:12] mentor when you were whether coming up
[01:14:14] through IBM or or after you left?
[01:14:16] >> Oh yeah. Again there's so many of them.
[01:14:18] >> Okay.
[01:14:19] >> I mean one of the guy the uh uh name is
[01:14:23] Bill Chan. you know the uh I really want
[01:14:26] to mention his name. He interviewed me
[01:14:29] when I was 29. He hired me to uh IBM.
[01:14:35] Um that was when I was 29 until today.
[01:14:39] We're still working together.
[01:14:40] >> Okay.
[01:14:41] >> So this is almost like gosh like um 38
[01:14:44] years.
[01:14:46] Um, mentor
[01:14:49] are not necessarily
[01:14:52] people that help you the most,
[01:14:57] but they have a fundamental
[01:15:00] impact
[01:15:02] >> on the philosophy that you practice.
[01:15:06] Right? If I really want to talk about
[01:15:08] it, you know, I think my dad has got the
[01:15:10] most impact on me.
[01:15:14] He told me that and I already talked
[01:15:15] about this. You know, time is the most
[01:15:18] valuable thing that you ever have in
[01:15:20] your life. So, use your time well.
[01:15:23] >> When I was a teenager, you know, like 18
[01:15:26] years old, my appreciation of time is
[01:15:30] very very different from today.
[01:15:32] >> Right. Of course.
[01:15:33] >> But it's the same unit.
[01:15:34] >> Yes.
[01:15:35] >> When you're 100 years old,
[01:15:38] that one second is exactly the same as
[01:15:40] one second today.
[01:15:42] >> Right. The second thing my dog my dad
[01:15:44] taught me when I was very very young.
[01:15:47] Um,
[01:15:49] don't ever wait for your reward. Your
[01:15:52] reward is the learning that you already
[01:15:54] got.
[01:15:56] >> Right? For example, when I was in middle
[01:15:58] school and I told you I spent a lot of
[01:16:01] time trying to get my English
[01:16:06] is actually my best subject and then
[01:16:09] math
[01:16:10] on the other subject you know the uh
[01:16:13] people talk about it
[01:16:16] I will learn when I want to otherwise I
[01:16:19] just don't pay attention to it.
[01:16:22] college, professional career, I do
[01:16:25] exactly the same thing.
[01:16:27] If I don't see the value of time spent,
[01:16:31] >> then I just won't.
[01:16:32] >> Right.
[01:16:32] >> Right. Now, this is not the best way,
[01:16:35] but this is the way my dad taught me.
[01:16:39] And in my career lifetime as well as my
[01:16:43] lifetime,
[01:16:44] I've gone through many experiences and
[01:16:47] many mentors.
[01:16:49] They reinforce,
[01:16:51] they give me confirmation over and over
[01:16:54] again that was the right approach.
[01:16:56] And this is the same thing I'm teaching
[01:16:59] my girls, my family, that you know, you
[01:17:04] only have time and never wait for your
[01:17:06] rewards,
[01:17:07] >> right?
[01:17:08] >> Move on.
[01:17:08] >> Well, let's let's switch over to talk a
[01:17:11] little bit about your family. So,
[01:17:13] >> you know, this I've described this
[01:17:15] industry, I think, earlier that it's I
[01:17:17] mean, it's a brutal industry, right? So,
[01:17:19] I'm sure a lot of people say that about
[01:17:21] their industry, but semiconductors seems
[01:17:23] pretty brutal. Yeah.
[01:17:24] >> Right. I mean, you hear people like
[01:17:26] Jensen who said that if he had to do it
[01:17:29] all over again, he would never do it if
[01:17:31] he knew then what he knows now that the
[01:17:32] sacrifice was just too great.
[01:17:35] >> So, tell me a little bit about maybe has
[01:17:39] there ever been any sacrifice that was
[01:17:41] too big in your career that you made?
[01:17:43] And again, we talked a lot about the
[01:17:45] importance of time and you know that
[01:17:48] oftentimes people end up at the end of
[01:17:50] the day that they're they don't have a
[01:17:52] family or they don't have their health
[01:17:54] because they committed so much of their
[01:17:56] time to their job. But I mean you you
[01:17:57] see these CEOs in the chip industry.
[01:17:59] They're it's not the um 996
[01:18:04] Chinese way. It's 7 days a week
[01:18:08] constantly on call. Even if you're not
[01:18:10] as if you're not working, you're
[01:18:12] thinking about work. So, how does how
[01:18:14] does Ten So, first of all, the sacrifice
[01:18:16] question and then how does Tien maintain
[01:18:19] the energy and the passion that's
[01:18:22] necessary to thrive when you're going
[01:18:24] full throttle?
[01:18:25] >> I I don't think anybody can manage the
[01:18:28] uh balance. Uh I I certainly
[01:18:32] can't. Um the when you talk about the
[01:18:35] the sacrifice
[01:18:38] um I think the real the true sacrifice
[01:18:42] is something you couldn't see today
[01:18:45] which means one of this day it just
[01:18:47] showed up and it is so detrimental
[01:18:52] that even if you regret it's too late
[01:18:54] >> right
[01:18:54] >> that would be the true sacrifice. Um,
[01:18:58] fortunately I don't have that yet,
[01:19:01] but I'm pretty sure, you know, something
[01:19:03] is brewing. I'm pretty sure [laughter]
[01:19:06] if you look at the uh the stress level,
[01:19:09] the jet lags, the um, you know, the um,
[01:19:14] you know, I I joined ASC uh, year 2000
[01:19:18] and um, I only moved to Taiwan in 2013.
[01:19:22] I mean, we just talk about, right,
[01:19:24] >> the GSA event. I never missed any GSA
[01:19:26] event before 2013. I was just always
[01:19:30] right there,
[01:19:30] >> right?
[01:19:31] >> Because the uh I was doing
[01:19:34] every two three weeks shuttle
[01:19:37] that you know my daughter two girls they
[01:19:39] were doing the competitive gymnastics
[01:19:42] >> in the US in US in California. So every
[01:19:44] two three weeks they will compete
[01:19:46] >> to the best of my capability. I will
[01:19:49] join their competition event which means
[01:19:52] that I will do two weeks overseas and
[01:19:56] two weeks in US. I've done that for
[01:19:58] years.
[01:19:59] >> On two 2012 my younger daughter went to
[01:20:03] college
[01:20:05] and then because the business need
[01:20:08] officially moved to Taiwan. I'm spending
[01:20:11] more than 50% of time in Taiwan.
[01:20:13] >> Okay.
[01:20:14] >> The sacrifice is huge.
[01:20:17] your personal physical health, your
[01:20:20] family, wife and kids.
[01:20:25] uh I I missed a lot but
[01:20:30] as a lot of times the situation
[01:20:34] you know calls for it and once you get
[01:20:36] on this job and then the uh that there's
[01:20:39] too many aspiration the uh you look at
[01:20:42] it you know my wife and I we got married
[01:20:45] for 40 years you know when we get to
[01:20:48] know each other you know we're grad
[01:20:50] student at the time you know the
[01:20:53] aspiration the knowledge
[01:20:55] uh the uh is at one given point the
[01:20:58] sparks then you get married
[01:20:59] >> right
[01:21:00] >> and as time goes on you know family kids
[01:21:04] career path is very different exposure
[01:21:06] is very different so the domain
[01:21:08] knowledge you know whatever is spinning
[01:21:10] your mind
[01:21:12] it can't be identical
[01:21:14] so how do you keep the people's mind and
[01:21:17] physical in tandem
[01:21:19] >> that's the sacrifice
[01:21:21] >> right
[01:21:22] >> right so what is holding all of this
[01:21:24] together is the lifelong commitment and
[01:21:27] also the family value and also the
[01:21:30] effort or empathy and perspective
[01:21:34] >> that you know she understands
[01:21:37] why am I doing this I understand her
[01:21:40] sacrifice
[01:21:42] but the path is very different I think
[01:21:44] all family needs to grow through this
[01:21:47] not at a kids level parents level
[01:21:49] husband and wife's level
[01:21:51] >> right um
[01:21:54] the the you know I often I always
[01:21:56] believe that God is fair
[01:21:58] so everything is the uh you have a
[01:22:01] scores so whatever you gain more you're
[01:22:04] going to lose more on the other side
[01:22:06] >> so but the true sacrifice unfortunately
[01:22:09] we will not know until it happened
[01:22:12] >> so you know we've spent many dinners
[01:22:15] talking about our children and your two
[01:22:17] daughters so
[01:22:18] >> tell me what they think about your
[01:22:20] career and your accomplishment And what
[01:22:22] what advice do you give them as one of
[01:22:24] them is a new mom, right?
[01:22:26] >> Yeah.
[01:22:26] >> And um and they have careers. So
[01:22:30] >> what kind of role model do you do with
[01:22:32] them?
[01:22:32] >> Well, I taught them two things. Time is
[01:22:35] the most valuable thing. And also, you
[01:22:38] know, never wait for reward. Learning
[01:22:40] experience is your reward. The second
[01:22:43] thing I taught them is no fear. The
[01:22:46] whole world is trying to intimidate you.
[01:22:48] So very often they're trying to use
[01:22:50] scary things, luxury things, big things
[01:22:54] just to overwhelm you,
[01:22:55] >> right?
[01:22:56] >> So when my daughter was very very young
[01:22:58] and I start showing them documentary
[01:23:00] film, Warframe, I show them scary movie
[01:23:04] and my daughter still complain about it.
[01:23:06] Yeah. Why did you do this?
[01:23:07] >> It's so funny. Why did you do this?
[01:23:10] >> I did the same.
[01:23:10] >> I said, listen, because in your
[01:23:13] lifetime, there will be strange people.
[01:23:17] Their job is just to scare you. Should
[01:23:20] never be scared. All right. Okay. So,
[01:23:23] having said that, you know, my daughters
[01:23:26] are not scared. And it becomes another
[01:23:28] problem. [laughter] You know, the uh my
[01:23:31] older girl went to Congo, went to Syria
[01:23:33] refugee camp and climbed the Mount
[01:23:36] Himalayas by herself, you know. Yeah.
[01:23:38] Just like start doing a lot of this kind
[01:23:40] of thing. Um but but finally because the
[01:23:43] uh you know she back to California just
[01:23:46] got married and uh I'm just really
[01:23:49] really blessed and the year younger one
[01:23:51] you know spinning around and then the uh
[01:23:54] first grandson. So but
[01:23:56] >> that's awesome.
[01:23:57] >> How do they feel about my job?
[01:24:00] You have to ask them. But I believe I
[01:24:04] practice things that I teach them
[01:24:09] and and and they watch me doing the
[01:24:12] things in a practical way and I often
[01:24:15] share with them about whatever my talk
[01:24:18] speech like this podcast
[01:24:21] >> right
[01:24:22] >> uh
[01:24:23] >> they'll watch
[01:24:25] >> I'm really doing this for you and them
[01:24:27] >> because I want them just to you know
[01:24:29] really know how I feel about my own
[01:24:32] life, the industry and how I feel about
[01:24:34] mom and how I feel about them,
[01:24:36] >> right?
[01:24:37] >> It's um
[01:24:38] >> well, I can tell them personally. You've
[01:24:40] told me a lot about them,
[01:24:41] >> right? It's important that um you know,
[01:24:43] they they they see their father, you
[01:24:46] know, live by example.
[01:24:49] >> That you know, the uh I I'm fearless.
[01:24:53] Maybe I'm too fearless. So, I always get
[01:24:55] myself into trouble. And then the I'm
[01:24:58] very direct and honest. So when people
[01:25:01] ask me things, I would just tell them my
[01:25:03] honest opinion. I try to be a really
[01:25:06] nice guy. I never get angry with people.
[01:25:09] I might not be able to achieve what your
[01:25:11] expectation, but I certainly try very
[01:25:13] hard. So over the years many friends and
[01:25:17] they are the one that helped me along
[01:25:20] the way
[01:25:21] >> and showing me okay be careful here are
[01:25:24] the traps and this is the area you
[01:25:27] should spend more time and energy on um
[01:25:30] but that's how the ecosystem
[01:25:33] um we're all silent contributor if I
[01:25:35] look at all of us
[01:25:37] >> I mean there are people like on Wall
[01:25:39] Street Journal all the time but even
[01:25:41] then gosh Gosh, you know how many years
[01:25:45] they have crawl in the dirt,
[01:25:46] >> right?
[01:25:47] >> In order to get to where they are today
[01:25:50] and all tenacious, you know, but this is
[01:25:52] the industry and we're engineers. We're
[01:25:55] not business people,
[01:25:56] >> right?
[01:25:57] >> I mean, we're still think about what
[01:25:59] excites us is to solve a bottleneck that
[01:26:04] we believe we saw at first. Mhm.
[01:26:08] >> I mean, why would anybody spend 10, 15
[01:26:12] years working on something that you
[01:26:13] would never know that people will
[01:26:15] acknowledge or recognize the uh in
[01:26:18] future? But that's
[01:26:20] >> you don't wait for the reward.
[01:26:21] >> You never wait for the reward. I mean
[01:26:23] that that's why the uh we want to spend
[01:26:25] time on the most challenging problems
[01:26:29] >> because that's where you gain the
[01:26:32] greatest knowledge which is your reward,
[01:26:34] >> right? And whether this will be used uh
[01:26:38] as secondary, we would love this to be
[01:26:40] used and make money out of it. But I
[01:26:44] think what really excites a good
[01:26:45] engineer is solving a fundamentally
[01:26:49] challenging or almost unsolvable
[01:26:52] problem.
[01:26:52] >> Okay.
[01:26:54] So what so at the end of the day, what's
[01:26:56] your legacy? What does your grandson and
[01:26:58] maybe your future granddaughters say
[01:27:01] about say about you?
[01:27:02] >> I have no legacy. M&M ma'am engineers
[01:27:05] got lucky you know the uh Taiwan US
[01:27:09] enjoy the uh the generosity of US
[01:27:13] education system work for IBM and I have
[01:27:16] many many people that you know I mean I
[01:27:18] have like hundreds of names that just
[01:27:22] help me they they just like you
[01:27:24] >> right
[01:27:24] >> I mean it's it's no family
[01:27:28] like relationship work you know um they
[01:27:31] just like you and then I join Simon and
[01:27:33] doctor where people are so practical and
[01:27:36] so engineering
[01:27:38] mean they they like you they want to
[01:27:40] work with you because you're effective
[01:27:43] and then the uh you are always honest
[01:27:46] and be upfront about it
[01:27:48] >> this is what I can do this is what I
[01:27:50] cannot do and you have to help me on
[01:27:53] what I cannot otherwise I will not be
[01:27:56] have value to you so when you know a lot
[01:27:59] of these kind of people good things
[01:28:01] happen Right.
[01:28:02] >> Which is why you know the uh I never
[01:28:05] thought semiconductor
[01:28:07] you know will be on this profile.
[01:28:10] I think people are seeing and reading
[01:28:13] semiconductor more than semiconductor
[01:28:16] itself
[01:28:16] >> right [laughter]
[01:28:17] >> and that becomes a problem.
[01:28:19] Semiconductor is not complicated.
[01:28:23] It's design manufacturing ecosystem.
[01:28:26] It takes a lot of new material, new
[01:28:29] equipment
[01:28:31] to do the next level of integration and
[01:28:34] we're trying to solve all of this issue.
[01:28:37] >> It's pretty complex.
[01:28:38] >> It's very complex.
[01:28:40] >> Very complex.
[01:28:41] >> But you know, I think it's in
[01:28:45] the other element comes in and we just
[01:28:48] have to evolve with it.
[01:28:50] >> Right? If you don't want to evolve with
[01:28:51] it,
[01:28:53] then just don't just, you know, just
[01:28:55] just you need to get off the bus.
[01:28:57] >> Right.
[01:28:58] >> Right. So, I think that is a choice we
[01:29:00] all have to make. But today, you know, I
[01:29:03] see great opportunities and I think
[01:29:06] everybody that I talk to are so
[01:29:09] persistent,
[01:29:10] >> right?
[01:29:10] >> It's always like bunch of fun people
[01:29:13] that
[01:29:14] >> we have a we have fun.
[01:29:16] >> Yes.
[01:29:16] >> Most of the time we have fun, right? for
[01:29:19] gosh, you mean the uh
[01:29:22] I think I got on the uh FASA board 2003
[01:29:26] or something.
[01:29:27] >> Yes. Or may I think maybe um
[01:29:29] >> 04
[01:29:30] >> 202 maybe
[01:29:32] >> 02.
[01:29:32] >> Yeah.
[01:29:33] >> 23 or something.
[01:29:34] >> Yeah.
[01:29:35] >> Right. you know the uh
[01:29:38] early days the uh I mean the gosh
[01:29:42] the FASA the GSA you know we we watch
[01:29:45] the beginning
[01:29:46] >> right with the aspiration dream and what
[01:29:49] was complain
[01:29:50] >> yes always
[01:29:51] >> oh people don't acknowledge the fabulous
[01:29:54] people you know the uh people don't give
[01:29:56] enough credit the sic doctor
[01:29:58] >> but now it's the other way around and we
[01:30:00] complain
[01:30:02] >> right so I think the complaint side of
[01:30:03] it it just never ends But there are many
[01:30:07] practical problems that collectively,
[01:30:10] you know, we need to solve,
[01:30:12] >> right?
[01:30:12] >> I think that,
[01:30:14] you know, keep us awake at night.
[01:30:17] >> Yeah.
[01:30:17] >> Keep us exciting.
[01:30:19] >> There's always a job to do.
[01:30:20] >> Yes.
[01:30:21] >> If you're solving problems, there's
[01:30:22] always
[01:30:22] >> it's very rare to have an industry. You
[01:30:26] still feel so good about it.
[01:30:28] >> Revive revived even. Right. I think
[01:30:31] that, you know, I think maybe there went
[01:30:33] there was a lull at some point in time,
[01:30:35] but I know so many people that, you
[01:30:37] know, have been doing this for a long
[01:30:38] time and they've never been more excited
[01:30:40] about their career than they are now.
[01:30:41] >> Really is.
[01:30:42] >> Yeah. It's very cool. Okay, so we're
[01:30:44] going Thank you so much, Dan. This was
[01:30:46] so fun and I'm I'm very excited for our
[01:30:48] audience to get to know you how I how I
[01:30:50] feel like I've known you. And by the
[01:30:51] way, I know things now that I didn't
[01:30:53] know before. So very excited about that.
[01:30:55] So we're going to do a section called
[01:30:56] the last tape out.
[01:30:57] >> Okay.
[01:30:58] >> Okay. So, I'm going to just read through
[01:31:00] some questions. First thing that comes
[01:31:02] to your mind,
[01:31:02] >> right? Okay.
[01:31:03] >> And let's see. Um,
[01:31:07] what would be something that people
[01:31:09] don't know about you that would surprise
[01:31:10] you that we haven't talked about today?
[01:31:12] Maybe. Is there anything like
[01:31:15] >> Oh, yeah. The uh even though I'm so
[01:31:18] busy,
[01:31:20] um I play table tennis.
[01:31:24] >> Okay.
[01:31:24] >> Uh two hours twice a week. Wow.
[01:31:28] >> I do mountain climbing whenever
[01:31:31] possible.
[01:31:32] Uh, and here's the punch line with my
[01:31:36] classmates.
[01:31:38] >> Okay.
[01:31:38] >> That I got to know them at four year
[01:31:40] old.
[01:31:40] >> That's so cool.
[01:31:41] >> Yeah,
[01:31:42] >> that is really cool.
[01:31:43] >> I think very few people can claim that
[01:31:45] the uh they have a bunch of old guys
[01:31:48] that they have known each other for 65
[01:31:50] years.
[01:31:51] >> I think that that's so cool. And of
[01:31:52] course, one of the most beautiful places
[01:31:54] in the world to mountain climb is
[01:31:56] Taiwan. That's right. That's right.
[01:31:57] Yeah. So beautiful here. Okay.
[01:31:58] >> Okay. Um,
[01:32:00] >> who is the wisest or smartest person
[01:32:02] you've ever known?
[01:32:03] >> Too many, right? Too many. I I cannot
[01:32:06] name them. The uh the industry
[01:32:10] there just so many of them. I mean, I
[01:32:12] can just go go read the newspaper.
[01:32:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. We know a lot of smart
[01:32:16] people.
[01:32:16] >> Exactly. [laughter]
[01:32:17] >> It's hard to rank them. Okay. What's a
[01:32:19] small daily ritual that keeps you
[01:32:20] grounded or centered?
[01:32:22] >> Oh, I do this uh every morning. Like I
[01:32:25] typically get up 5:20. Between 5:20 to
[01:32:28] six o'clock, I will think about what
[01:32:30] I've done wrong the day [laughter]
[01:32:32] before.
[01:32:33] >> It's a ritual. It's a ritual.
[01:32:35] >> Okay.
[01:32:35] >> Um, did I say something rude? Did I use
[01:32:39] the wrong word?
[01:32:41] >> Did I use the wrong tone or could I
[01:32:44] improve uh whatever I do? And I do this
[01:32:47] for for many many years.
[01:32:49] >> I love that. Very reflective.
[01:32:50] >> Yeah. Yeah. Very uh because I want to be
[01:32:53] a likable person. and I still want to uh
[01:32:56] seek for my uh next layer of uh
[01:33:00] enlightenment.
[01:33:01] >> Okay. Okay. So, what is a uh one of your
[01:33:04] pet peeves in a business meeting?
[01:33:08] >> Not showing respect to other people's
[01:33:10] time. Time is the most valuable thing.
[01:33:13] So, if you walk to the meeting late,
[01:33:15] you're not showing respect to other
[01:33:17] people's time. If you're not prepared or
[01:33:19] you're not paying attention, uh like
[01:33:21] people doing the uh computer clicking,
[01:33:24] uh that bothers me because you're just
[01:33:26] not paying you're paying attention to
[01:33:28] yourself, not to others. And I think
[01:33:30] that's the
[01:33:32] they they they all know.
[01:33:34] >> Okay.
[01:33:34] >> Right.
[01:33:36] >> When was the last time that you truly
[01:33:37] unplugged?
[01:33:39] >> Uh typically in the hospital. I mean,
[01:33:42] I've been to hospital for different
[01:33:44] reasons, right? But we were lying in the
[01:33:46] hospital ICU and with a computer, you
[01:33:49] know, clicking and then the I mean the
[01:33:52] whole fat the whole life just passed by
[01:33:55] and the uh
[01:33:57] it's
[01:33:58] I had a few uh terrible experience.
[01:34:02] >> Okay. Well, I'm sorry to hear that.
[01:34:03] >> It's the way that's part of the that's
[01:34:06] the small sacrifice.
[01:34:08] >> Okay. Yeah, that's a pretty big one.
[01:34:09] >> Not not recoverable yet, but
[01:34:13] >> All right.
[01:34:14] >> Okay. Um,
[01:34:16] coffee, tea, or something else entirely.
[01:34:19] >> One c one one glass of uh
[01:34:24] actually I don't drink and I don't I
[01:34:27] don't drink anything. It's just water.
[01:34:28] But the uh typically
[01:34:31] >> one cup of tea, one cup of coffee every
[01:34:33] day
[01:34:34] >> and for wine is just a very very casual.
[01:34:36] I don't drink and I don't smoke.
[01:34:39] >> Yeah.
[01:34:40] >> Okay. Healthy guy. Okay.
[01:34:42] >> Okay. So, this is an interesting
[01:34:43] question. Would you choose to be 25
[01:34:47] today
[01:34:48] or 25 if you had to go back one way or
[01:34:51] the other or 25 when you were 25?
[01:34:56] >> Okay. The
[01:34:57] >> so with all the pressures of today young
[01:35:00] people have today.
[01:35:03] >> Okay. Does that mean the do I want to be
[01:35:06] 25?
[01:35:06] >> You have to be 25. So, you can either
[01:35:08] relive it in the past without any
[01:35:11] special knowledge or anything or you're
[01:35:13] 25 today.
[01:35:15] >> No, I don't want I don't want to relive
[01:35:17] this. [laughter] It's uh
[01:35:21] Okay. The Well, if I'm going back to 25,
[01:35:26] which is when I was 25. Absolutely no.
[01:35:29] >> Okay.
[01:35:30] >> It was too hard for me, for for
[01:35:33] everybody around me. Um,
[01:35:37] if I have everything that I have
[01:35:40] and become 25,
[01:35:42] >> yeah,
[01:35:43] >> the answer is still no.
[01:35:44] >> Okay.
[01:35:45] >> Because the uh
[01:35:48] I would be a whole lot more ambitious.
[01:35:53] And then the uh if I have the the
[01:35:56] everything, the knowledge, experience,
[01:35:59] language, capability, and money that I
[01:36:02] have and just be 25. No, I don't want to
[01:36:05] be because I have no idea what I will do
[01:36:09] and then the uh how my family will
[01:36:11] survive
[01:36:13] uh the this this journey. So, no, you
[01:36:15] know, no, I don't want to be 25.
[01:36:16] >> Okay. Okay, fair enough. And finally,
[01:36:19] what is one question that I didn't ask
[01:36:21] you that you think I should ask the next
[01:36:23] guest on this podcast?
[01:36:26] >> What is the most valuable time? What is
[01:36:28] the most valuable thing in life?
[01:36:30] >> Okay.
[01:36:31] >> And I think everybody should have one
[01:36:33] thing.
[01:36:33] >> Okay.
[01:36:34] >> Right. It can be you know can be
[01:36:35] anything but for me is time and time
[01:36:38] will change me the uh is very
[01:36:42] interesting this is my question for
[01:36:45] my
[01:36:47] my daughter's boyfriend
[01:36:50] [laughter]
[01:36:50] >> oh
[01:36:52] >> I always ask you know what is the most
[01:36:54] valuable thing okay [laughter]
[01:36:56] >> for you in your life um you know no one
[01:36:59] came up with the right answer but
[01:37:01] [laughter] anyway
[01:37:02] >> what were some of the answers just could
[01:37:04] be anything, you know, family love, you
[01:37:07] know, the uh
[01:37:08] >> but anyway, I I I reinforce it.
[01:37:12] >> Okay.
[01:37:12] >> All right. So, the uh
[01:37:15] >> Tucson law
[01:37:16] >> and they they all know
[01:37:18] >> they pass the test somehow
[01:37:20] >> because I keep I keep reinforcing the
[01:37:23] make sure you use your time well. And
[01:37:26] then that is something
[01:37:28] it would took it took me years to learn
[01:37:32] how valuable time is. I mean until today
[01:37:36] I mean the uh if you look a lot of
[01:37:38] people doing a lot of things they they
[01:37:41] really don't understand
[01:37:43] time is is is a funny thing. You don't
[01:37:45] really know how much time you have
[01:37:47] >> right
[01:37:48] >> is somewhere in in God's bank you know
[01:37:50] with your name on it and you just keep
[01:37:52] drawing it. uh it's a it's a standard
[01:37:55] unit that everybody's drawing the same
[01:37:57] unit every second and then you use that
[01:38:01] time to trade and exchange whatever you
[01:38:05] have
[01:38:05] >> right
[01:38:06] >> and then after many many years later and
[01:38:09] that's the scorecard until there's no
[01:38:12] more time so I think time is really the
[01:38:16] essence of life
[01:38:18] >> well since I know how important time is
[01:38:20] to you the fact that I got so much of
[01:38:21] yours thank you
[01:38:22] >> today is very very appreciated
[01:38:24] >> and I appreciate it. I mean I
[01:38:25] >> and all the time you've always given to
[01:38:27] me. I I said in my introduction that you
[01:38:29] know you've been a trusted adviser of
[01:38:31] mine for 20 years and I really
[01:38:33] appreciate all the time and energy and
[01:38:36] advice that you've given me along the
[01:38:37] way.
[01:38:38] >> All right. Well, thank you. Thank you
[01:38:39] for I I enjoy doing this.
[01:38:41] >> Good. Okay. Thank you.
[01:38:42] >> Very good. Thank you. All right. All
[01:38:43] right.
[01:38:46] [music]