# Christophe Fouquet - CEO of ASML | Podcast | In Good Company | Norges Bank Investment Management

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvQvrLjlJN8

[00:01] Hi everyone, I'm Nicola Tangan, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, and today we are honored to welcome Kristoff Fuk, the CEO of ASML.
[00:11] Now, ASML, it's the most important company many of you have never heard about.
[00:15] It produces the equipment that actually makes the computer chips.
[00:27] And it's basically the progress here which drives and decides the speed of the progress in health, electrical vehicles, communication, weapons, pretty much everything we do.
[00:31] So, I can consider Kristoff one of the most important people in the world just now.
[00:33] Warm welcome.
[00:35] Thank you very much, Nikolai.
[00:38] It's a very great pleasure to be with you today, and I'm very much looking forward to a great discussion about this great industry, and we are very proud shareholders as well.
[00:47] We own 2.6% of the company, equivalent to $7 billion, so it's very important for us.
[00:53] Now, Kristoff, if we kick off here.
[00:57] What do you actually produce?
[01:00] well what we produce in ASL are a lithography system lithography system.
[01:06] basically is a very important system in the entire semiconductor process because this is the system that is going to print uh the image of the electronic circuit you wants to get on a chip so where if you want printing whatever uh our customer wants to realize.
[01:25] so this is what we' have been doing for the last 40 years pretty much now you are the only euv liography printer in the world um.
[01:30] now in in one minute what is euv so euv refers to uh the light the type of light we are using basically on those lithography machine euv mean extra tret and this is a very very short wavelength we're talking about 13.5 nanometers so you look at a very very small wavelength and in lithography the smaller the wav length the smaller the feature you can print so UV is the light and the reason
[02:02] why a lot of people talk about euv is because being able to create that light in sufficient amount to industrialize a tool with it has been a challenge of many many years.
[02:12] why is it so difficult?
[02:15] what what part of it is difficult?
[02:17] well two two part that are difficult.
[02:18] the first one is the the the light generation what we we call The Source.
[02:23] you could see that if you want as the light bulb you have in in your house that create basically the energy you will need to to expose basically a weer.
[02:33] and creating UV light in ey of power has been a very very big headache uh for many people and for many many years.
[02:42] even in ASL we spend more than 20 years uh achieving basically 200 watt uh which was we s the first threshold to make euv economically viable.
[02:51] now I'll tell you how we do that because it will also uh explain a bit the complexity.
[02:57] so in order to to create a euv light today on the
[03:02] euv machine we have to hit a thin droplet.
[03:06] so it's a very very small droplet of material with a very high powerful CO2 lasers.
[03:12] and when we hit that drop plate basically with a very high powerful laser electrons start to go from one place to the other.
[03:23] and as they do so you have the evv light creation.
[03:25] now to give you an idea uh we hit a droplet 50,000 time per second.
[03:33] and to be honest I was simplifying a bit we don't hit the droplet once we hit it three times 50,000 time per seconds.
[03:42] the first time to make the droplet bigger.
[03:45] the second time to make it look a bit like a gas.
[03:47] and the third one to really get uh the euv light out.
[03:50] and of course being able to create that technology to be able to control that technology uh is a major Challenge.
[03:59] and that's what asml spent about 20 years of R&D doing a few.
[04:05] years ago and you are pretty much the only.
[04:07] well you are the only company which does this in the world.
[04:08] well yes we are the only company who who can do it I will say in a way that can be industrialized.
[04:14] you have a lot of of course research uh Center that can create UV light but not in this amount.
[04:23] uh and not I would say so systematically.
[04:26] I read somewhere that um your latest machine is the size I mean it's not uh it's not exactly pocket size uh it's the size of a double deck of bus.
[04:34] that's right that's right and and I saw somewhere that to transport this one machine you needed seven planes and 50 trucks.
[04:40] yeah it's all correct and the the size of the tool is is uh related to the second biggest uh challenge we have on UV which is the optic itself.
[04:48] because once you have the light you need to be able to guide the light first to the reticle to take the image you want to print on the waer and then to the weer to print it and in order to do that you need to work in vacuum you need to.
[05:05] develop very complex material I won't share what they are for obvious reason H.
[05:11] and that's also something that together with Ze our partner this time we also spend many many years to bring together.
[05:17] so you could see euv as a double challenge the source and the optic and the rest you know you could say is is pretty much looking like a normal scanner.
[05:27] so you basically need this to make um the chip smaller and smaller and which kind of brings us to more law.
[05:34] what uh just briefly could you explain more slow.
[05:37] well I think you have many many version of more slow uh if you listen to people and that's one of the reason some uh some people tell you Moro is dead or has died already many years ago.
[05:50] the version of Moro I like is the one that said that you have to double the density of transistor on a ship every two years uh and that's a load that have been executed and is still
[06:06] Being executed, it's something that logic.
[06:09] Customer are doing company like Intel.
[06:12] TSMC, Samsung, it's also a load that DRAM.
[06:16] Uh, customer are are following and that.
[06:20] Need to double the transistor density every two years is key basically to deliver performance.
[06:27] To deliver today AI, for example, we have AI today because we have gone far enough on Moore's Law.
[06:33] So that we have enough basically computing power to start to trend the type of model AI is looking at.
[06:42] And how much longer can this development continue, you think?
[06:45] Well, so here, if you look at, uh, in fact, uh, that low recently, this has in fact accelerated because AI has demanded even more.
[06:57] So if you look at AI, people who do AI, they don't want to double the density of transistor every two years.
[07:02] Right now, they want to multiply it by a.
[07:07] factor of 16 every two years so this is the type of new low you're looking at.
[07:12] when it comes to Computing performance.
[07:14] High Computing performance for AI so you see in fact in this case a strong uh acceleration of the performance uh need uh and demand.
[07:28] so you know you could say it's getting of of course may be harder over time to to get this density uh but so far people have been creative enough to to keep going and I think we continue to see that.
[07:38] so the question when does it stop uh you know I could say never uh if I'm a bit less uh bullish I would say won't stop at least for another 20 years and we'll see after that but I think this this is still a longterm enough view.
[07:53] so I think we we believe that the the level of creativity in this industry far beyond just SML by the way is such that uh we will keep going for for quite a long time.
[08:03] I'm sorry just to to get that straight you think you can increase
[08:07] uh complexity by 16 times every two years for the next 20 years wow this is what our AI uh you know uh uh people want right
[08:16] this is what the AI company wants now the problem with that today is that if we were to go on this pass uh cost is an issue and as you know of course energy consumption is an issue so that demand has to be I would say fulfilled through major innovation in our industry major innovation in logic you know again Intel tsmc Samsung in memory so you hear a lot about high band WS memory today but also major innovation in our domain in lithography to continue to basically enable our customer to to get uh that type of density this is why you know you talked about our uh uh latest equipment before but this is why we continue basically to to innovate and and and bring basically the ability to to get more and more
[09:08] transistor uh per unit area with better lithography machine.
[09:13] How far into the future can you see?
[09:16] Well, usually we have a a good view of the next five years.
[09:19] I think I would say you know the five years coming I would call it uh the plan.
[09:25] I think we have a pretty good uh idea of what could happen in the next 10 years, maybe 15 years.
[09:32] But then you start to look at scenarios so you know there is many options to get there and after that it's a bit more theoretical.
[09:40] But I would say when it comes to the next 5 to 15 years um there's quite some um confidence that uh you know the continuation of mlow the continuation of this industry is is pretty strong with a lot of challenges of course uh.
[09:55] But that's always been true when we talk about uh two nanometer chips.
[09:56] How how small is that two nanometer chip?
[10:01] Can you put it into perspective?
[10:03] Well, the chip itself is is not too small right?
[10:05] The chip itself is still a few millimeter by
[10:09] A few millimeters, what's really really small is the size of the transistor.
[10:15] Right, 2 nanometers is basically about 200 times the size of a silicon atom.
[10:21] Right, so you start basically to to to look at dimensions that come close to atomic dimensions.
[10:25] So this is extremely small and it means that the way those transistors are going to work uh is such that people start to count electrons as well.
[10:36] Uh, so we are we are getting as close uh as you can imagine to uh to to to the limit of physics or at least the limit of physics as we we learn them at school.
[10:48] And this is what makes this uh this moment in this industry so so exciting because this requires of course new innovation.
[10:56] Now you um you spent I believe $6 billion to develop this over a very long time frame, um more than 15 years.
[11:03] Just how do you how do you cultivate that type of long-term mindset?
[11:06] Yeah, so we
[11:11] Spend a in more than that but um you know what what is defining I think ASL in many way and if you ask me this is maybe what makes ASML unique.
[11:26] We do things because we believe this is the right things to do and when we look at UV you know if you go back 20 years ago we looked at different options that could be used for lithography.
[11:42] We had EUV, uh, we had Ebeam, uh, we had what people call still today Nano imprints which consist in getting the article in contact to the wafer and each one of those options were very very difficult.
[11:59] And we picked EUV not because it was the easiest one.
[12:01] In fact EUV was less advanced most probably than Ebeam or uh basically uh Nano imprints but we picked EUV because we thought that this was the
[12:12] Only technology that over time could scale to the point where we could provide the resolution but also the productivity.
[12:20] Meaning that we could also provide this at the right cost and that's how it started.
[12:25] And we were convinced that the industry needed it, which I think has been proven since then.
[12:30] I mean, everyone is aware of, you know, the story of uh uh TSMC going to 7 5 Nom with UV Intel not doing that and you know what what was the results of that.
[12:42] So we were convinced that the industry will need it and and then we we we invested in that to to the level we could afford it.
[12:49] Which if you look back, you know, 20, 25 years ago, ASML was was not a very rich company.
[12:54] In fact, we went as far as asking our customers to to co-invest with us on the program.
[12:59] But we did it because we thought that this had to be fixed.
[13:03] And I can tell you that that was not easy and for a long time I think there was not even the
[13:13] guarantee that this would work but there was we thought most probably 80% chance that this would work because we still understood the physics we still understood the fundamentals and this is the reason why we went there and that could sound strange FR to a lot of people because you know uh people could ask well did you have at least a good business plan uh and the answer at that time was no I mean we couldn't find a way to to make the business plan look even reasonable right because the the channel was such but there was this belief that if we get it done and if this allowed the industry to move forward this would be good for the industry this would be of course good for as a reses and I think we truly believe in ASL that as long as we are contributing to extend this industry by one more node so as long as we extend basically more low then we generate a lot of value for everyone I mean the the
[14:15] value chain here in this industry is is really fascinating.
[14:17] so you talked about getting financing from your customers.
[14:19] they also took ownership stakes in you.
[14:23] yeah at some point they did uh how how important has that been for the uh for the corporation.
[14:29] this was for for tourison uh the first one maybe the most important part.
[14:32] it was showing also the commitment they had on the technology.
[14:35] so I think it was very important for us to to have this alignment with the the key players to know that euv was important for them.
[14:47] and I think that their co-investment was the proof of that.
[14:51] and you know again at a time where uh the ability for asml to invest in R&D was for sure less than it is today.
[14:57] uh this also gave us enough fund practically to to accelerate the development of UV.
[15:02] so I think this co-investment uh program most probably accelerated the whole euv program by let's say maybe 3 to five years.
[15:12] which which you know is is significant and
[15:17] again we had partner you know we had people that days after days night after night were were walking with us.
[15:24] we're together uh on on the same uh on the same trip to get UV to work okay that's very important because if you're going to do something that difficult you know you feel better if you're not alone right.
[15:35] absolutely talking of which uh you also work very closely with size on on the Optics um tell us about that relationship.
[15:43] so this is a German Optics company well so you know when Ze and asml talk about the relationship we said this this relationship is is worse than a marriage because we can never get divorce right.
[16:00] we have created a level of interdependency between the two company which which is extremely high and the reason for that is we made the choice from the very beginning to focus on what we were good at and Ze is extremely good on optic they have become
[16:18] excellent over time of course they have gone also through their learning for more than 30 years and their learning has allowed them to be able to do something like euv or even Ina today.
[16:30] uh while in parallel we were doing the same learning basically on everything else that lithography has to provide.
[16:37] why don't you merge.
[16:41] well because I think you know you you need to want it and I think this this has never been the case and and there you know you you touch to culture you touch to history uh you touch to business model and what we have learned over time is uh that even if you don't merge you can develop model that I would say can become almost even maybe more effective than if you were to merge.
[17:07] because in the way we walk everyone does its own things with its own culture its own mind and I think this has been a strength to be honest over time it's very good to have a
[17:19] partner that is also different from you.
[17:23] and that therefore not only is able to work with you but is always able to challenge also the way you do things.
[17:29] and I think that's that's part of the the great relationship with we have with ice.
[17:33] Where do you um see AI developing over the next few years?
[17:38] I mean we're seeing you know xai putting 10 like 100,000 uh gpus to form Colossus uh just an incredible development just now.
[17:50] yeah so I think it's a it's a very very important question for this industry.
[17:55] and if I start start with the end.
[18:00] I'm a True Believer of AI of what AI can do basically for I would say for Humanity.
[18:08] and the reason for that is if I look at what we have been doing in ASL uh we see many many places where AI can help.
[18:14] the most important part I think is
[18:19] R&D at the end I think the the the strongest potential value of AI is to be able to accelerate our uh learning cycle.
[18:28] So in some way accelerate R&D and improve our product and all of that can be done because in the past few years the amount of data we have been generating to develop our product but also the amount of data we generate once our product are running at our customer is enormous.
[18:47] So there is a huge untapped potential of making good use of this data and AI can do that.
[18:53] But now what we also see is that to trust AI to do that the models that are needed have to be even better than what we see today.
[19:06] So the number of parameters that model will have to use is going to grow very quickly most probably also exponentially.
[19:15] So there's another low also there with AI and that require even more High.
[19:23] computing power so we will first see a huge demand of high computing power with more advanced technology so 3 nanometer 2 nanometer and we'll go to angstrom type of node all of that I think we will find a lot of appetite from AI people to use it so that's the first part and this will I would say create huge opportunity.
[19:45] the second part is how are those opportunity going to to play a roll out in the next few years and I think that's the most difficult question so we a lot of us I think are very convinced about the huge potential AI has to offer I think none of us know exactly at which speed this will come basically to the market if I may say because at some point of time AI has to be more than just you know an activity around research and development this has to be translated into product who's going to be the winner here well I think at the end of the day you know I always believe
[20:23] that when it comes to model software you
[20:26] will have a lot of people who can do
[20:27] that I believe that the way you will
[20:31] design your Hardware the way you will
[20:34] architect basically uh the chips is is
[20:38] very very important this is why company
[20:41] like Nvidia AMD uh you know a few more
[20:45] most probably moving forward will really
[20:47] fight for that because I think that
[20:49] product enable whatever algorithm people
[20:53] may uh think on top of that and of
[20:56] course those product can only exist if
[21:01] you know company like tsmc Intel Samsung
[21:04] provide the technology to create a chip
[21:07] and those company can only do that if
[21:11] they continue to use our uh lithography
[21:14] tools yeah so you will have I
[21:17] think quite some winners and you cannot
[21:22] pick one because if you were to take out
[21:25] any of those name everyone lose right
[21:28] the beauty also of this ecosystem we we
[21:30] need each other right the talking which
[21:33] the super scalers are now designing
[21:35] their own chips how good are these chips
[21:37] I think they are very good and I think
[21:38] they they will get better over time I
[21:41] think uh today the chips that are being
[21:43] used both for memory or logic were not
[21:49] even necessarily designed for AI I think
[21:51] people have just taken the best chips
[21:53] available at the moment which is gpus uh
[21:58] and
[21:59] high band with memory for example but I
[22:02] think both in logic and in memory we
[22:04] will see major design change to optimize
[22:08] chips further for AI I think this this
[22:11] is most probably happening as we speak I
[22:14] think that those chips are pretty good
[22:16] but I think there is still major
[22:19] Improvement possible and you know this
[22:22] will also have an impact on the type of
[22:25] chips our own customer uh will
[22:28] manufacture so I think that's one of the
[22:31] very interesting things with ai ai is
[22:34] changing the industry you know it's not
[22:36] that you only see new product you see
[22:38] those product becoming the most
[22:41] important one for the industry so for a
[22:43] long time this was
[22:44] Mobile today it's Ai and it means that
[22:48] the run map of a lot of people including
[22:50] our run map uh will shift basically with
[22:54] the idea that we want to serve this new
[22:56] opportunity but I think those chips
[22:59] good but they will be a lot better in a
[23:02] few years from now when I prepared for
[23:04] for this podcast I uh I conferred with
[23:07] Chris Miller who wrote U the book the
[23:09] chip Wars and who is one of the leading
[23:12] experts in the world and and um he was
[23:14] just wondering given how much of the uh
[23:18] development and R&D and so on in the
[23:20] world which now depends on getting
[23:22] smaller and smaller chips uh how do you
[23:25] feel about having this incredible weight
[23:27] on your shoulders well I I think it's a
[23:29] huge uh it's a huge responsibility I
[23:32] think that's the first feeling you get
[23:33] because
[23:35] uh well you know you said it in your
[23:38] introduction we used to be this this
[23:40] company no one knows about I think this
[23:42] has changed quite a bit I think we are
[23:45] today a company that a lot of people
[23:49] rely on basically in order to be able to
[23:52] to to to create their product uh and I
[23:54] think that's that's a huge
[23:56] responsibility and this means for us
[23:58] that more than ever we have to continue
[24:01] to develop our product so that you know
[24:05] we never become the bottleneck to this
[24:07] industry uh we need to make sure we can
[24:11] produce them in enough capacity whatever
[24:14] the capacity will be needed so that
[24:16] everyone can play so you know we serve
[24:18] the market in a in a very fair way and
[24:21] you know this of course create a lot of
[24:23] uh of Pride for every isml employee you
[24:28] know I think the if you are an engineer
[24:30] and you tell an engineer that what you
[24:33] do nowadays is is at the core most
[24:36] probably of any major Innovation moving
[24:39] forward I think it's a it's a lot of
[24:41] Pride as well so you have responsibility
[24:43] you have pride and I think this also put
[24:47] us in a place sorry where I think we
[24:49] understand we we have to play our hole
[24:51] so I think this this have changed a bit
[24:54] uh I would say the the way isml has been
[24:57] looking at the war and I think you have
[24:59] seen our involvement as a results a lot
[25:01] more uh strong a lot more a lot stronger
[25:04] than it used to be changing um uh tax a
[25:07] bit um the geopolitical tensions that we
[25:11] have now between the US and China what
[25:13] are the implications for you well I
[25:16] think there are many many implication
[25:18] because you know we went to a former
[25:20] world where we were looking at a you
[25:24] know very very open collaborative world
[25:27] right as think the idea a few years ago
[25:29] was that you know we are going to do
[25:31] business everywhere everyone can work
[25:33] with
[25:34] everyone and this has supported I will
[25:38] say the development of our industry
[25:39] quite significantly because every part
[25:42] became important and we go from that
[25:45] view of the world to a view of the world
[25:47] where people more and more are looking
[25:50] at potentially the coupling things and
[25:54] this changed of course everything
[25:57] because the way way this industry was
[26:00] designed the way this industry has
[26:02] developed was based on the previous hols
[26:05] it was based on a completely open market
[26:09] it was based on the idea that you can
[26:13] basically use the revenue of more
[26:17] advanced
[26:18] product uh sorry the revenue of less
[26:21] Advanced product that you have developed
[26:22] a few years before to fund the
[26:25] development of more advanced one
[26:29] so you had this balance which which I
[26:31] think is a bit being put in question so
[26:34] this require quite some some
[26:37] adjustment and I think we see two main
[26:40] risk on that the the main one is cost
[26:44] you know because if you get less
[26:47] Revenue you have less ability to do R&D
[26:51] except if your cost
[26:54] increase if you are limited in
[26:57] geographic area to produce things cost
[27:00] could also goes up I think we all very
[27:03] much aware that for example that when it
[27:05] comes to build to manufactur of chips
[27:07] the US Europe are a lot more expensive
[27:10] than
[27:11] Asia uh that's also most probably slow
[27:15] down a bit uh The Innovation because
[27:18] again we we used to have this very open
[27:22] ecosystem uh and this this may be also a
[27:25] question so this makes things of course
[27:28] a bit more difficult or potentially a
[27:31] lot more difficult depending on how far
[27:32] you push basically the decoupling model
[27:36] so it's very fundamental yeah know
[27:38] absolutely how how far behind is China
[27:40] here now well I think I think I've said
[27:43] that a few say few times publicly I
[27:45] think and a few people have said that so
[27:47] China doesn't have access to
[27:50] euv and euv is critical for advanced
[27:53] logic I think this has been demonstrated
[27:55] in the Western World I go back again to
[27:57] the tsmc in their story uh you know euv
[28:02] was uh introduced for R&D around 2016 17
[28:07] started to go to production around
[28:10] 2018 and uh this means that China is at
[28:15] least I would say 10 years behind and
[28:19] most probably a bit more because as we
[28:21] were looking back in 201 you know 16 17
[28:26] they were already you know a couple of
[28:28] generation behind so you know 10 15
[28:31] years is most probably if you look at
[28:32] logic where where they stand and it's
[28:35] very very difficult to do Advanced logic
[28:38] without UV you you can of course make a
[28:41] few chips over time a few
[28:44] transistor but you cannot do it in
[28:46] volume you cannot do it at a cost that
[28:48] is reasonable so you cannot do it in a
[28:50] way that is
[28:51] economically viable Taiwan is in the
[28:54] middle of this whole value chain what
[28:58] how risky is that well I I think that uh
[29:02] you know it's it's a very difficult
[29:04] question I I I
[29:07] uh you know I I don't know to be honest
[29:10] because you you you can speculate on
[29:12] that uh you can only have an
[29:15] opinion uh there's always a risk of
[29:17] course to to have uh the supply chain
[29:21] concentrated in in one place I think no
[29:23] one can argue with that but then I would
[29:25] say we we we we present a similar risk
[29:27] for for the market in this sense um you
[29:31] know guessing what's going to happen on
[29:33] geopolitics is is is difficult because
[29:36] anything happening with Taiwan will have
[29:39] major implication for for the entire
[29:41] world clearly so I'm not I'm not one of
[29:45] the people who who are very uh much
[29:49] looking at very bad scenario to Taiwan I
[29:52] think those are very unlikely uh but
[29:54] again that's that's more of a personal
[29:56] opinion than anything else I'm I'm sure
[29:58] you have your own uh but I think what is
[30:01] for sure certain is that the tension
[30:04] could could raise over time and how fast
[30:07] do you think one can rrap up chip
[30:09] Manufacturing in US Japan South Korea
[30:13] well I think the the manufacturing part
[30:15] is is one thing uh the R&D part is
[30:18] another thing I think when you look at
[30:21] chips you need to have R&D first you
[30:24] know if you don't have R&D meaning if
[30:26] you don't have
[30:29] somewhere someone that provide you the
[30:32] next generation of chips it's a matter
[30:35] of time even if you have manufacturing
[30:38] that you manufacture things that are not
[30:40] very relevant so I think the access to
[30:42] R&D is is very very
[30:45] important and I truly believe that when
[30:48] it comes to Advanced
[30:50] chips you only can do those things if
[30:54] you have the history it's a bit like the
[30:55] story I gave you about asml and Z I
[30:58] think we can do euv today because we
[31:01] have done everything before we believe
[31:04] it's very hard for anyone to start from
[31:06] scratch and do UV I think it's the same
[31:09] for chips I think the idea that someone
[31:11] could just create an R&D Center and be
[31:14] able to do uh you know 2 nanometer or
[31:17] 1.4 nanom I think is from my point of
[31:20] view extremely difficult if not
[31:22] impossible and that's you know that's
[31:24] where you see those cooporation even for
[31:26] example Japan of course is is looking at
[31:29] doing 2 nanom logic but this is using uh
[31:33] technology from uh from from IBM right
[31:36] so you cannot just come out of the blue
[31:38] on on those kind of things so if you
[31:40] don't have it I think it takes a very
[31:42] very long time but yet the um you have
[31:46] chip acts in in various countries you
[31:48] have it in the US uh you got uh similar
[31:51] things in Japan UK EU just uh uh really
[31:57] huge amounts ofy
[32:00] um so how do you view this well it's
[32:03] huge but you know the problem is it all
[32:05] depends on the scale you're looking at
[32:08] and I think chipped acts from my point
[32:11] of view are are good to motivate people
[32:15] to restart the engine or to do some
[32:19] initial
[32:21] investment but I know I said it a few
[32:23] times already in in discussion cost is
[32:26] very important for this industry
[32:28] you need to get it right and the problem
[32:30] with chip is that they don't solve that
[32:33] chip taxs can help you to to put a
[32:36] factory to buy some tool to get going
[32:39] for one note but what's very important
[32:42] that's discussion we have with many
[32:44] government is to also make sure that you
[32:46] create a condition where you can compete
[32:48] on cost and on
[32:51] flexibility because you know subsidies
[32:53] are usually something that do not last
[32:56] forever and if over time you don't solve
[33:00] structurally competitive disadvantage
[33:02] you may have on cost or
[33:05] flexibility the fact that you know you
[33:08] boost for a while the R&D or uh the
[33:11] construction of new Fab is in no way a
[33:14] guarantee of success for the future so I
[33:16] think that's the part I think that is
[33:18] very important to understand this
[33:19] industry is very competitive very
[33:22] sensitive to cost chip tax I think have
[33:25] helped to re uh uh re recreate a bit
[33:28] some uh activity and some interest and
[33:32] give a chance again for some country to
[33:34] restart in semiconductor but all those
[33:37] country will have to make sure that they
[33:39] become competitive and I think that's
[33:41] that's a very that's most more difficult
[33:44] part of the 50 largest technology
[33:46] companies in the world only four are in
[33:48] Europe so a naive question here why why
[33:52] is that well I I think you know it's a
[33:56] it's a very it's a very tough question
[33:58] in Europe and you know if you knew the
[34:00] amount of time we we spent having this
[34:02] exact same same same discussion but you
[34:06] know I already touched on some of that
[34:08] uh you know I talked about flexibility
[34:10] uh I talked about cost this is very
[34:13] important I think access to Capital is
[34:15] also very very critical you you you need
[34:18] to be able to invest I think today
[34:20] access to Capital is a lot stronger in
[34:23] the US uh than it is in Europe uh I
[34:27] think you know that very well right but
[34:29] a lot even of the capital usually being
[34:31] used to invest in Europe come from from
[34:34] the US so that's something people
[34:36] underestimate that's very
[34:38] important access to resources to uh you
[34:41] know electricity power uh the price of
[34:45] the power all of that are very very
[34:47] important things and you see a lot of
[34:49] those debate happening today in Europe
[34:51] This are discussion we're having of
[34:53] course with with our government you know
[34:56] we we made a decision to stand ourself
[34:59] you know in the Netherland because that
[35:00] makes sense for us but we only can do
[35:04] that if we have the infrastructure if we
[35:06] have the energy if we have all those
[35:08] things so the reason why you have less
[35:12] company in Europe than maybe other place
[35:14] of the world is because those things
[35:15] today are just more difficult and you
[35:18] know Mario dragy Just published a report
[35:21] in Europe which I think described that
[35:22] very very nicely and now what's
[35:25] important is to have the political will
[35:28] to reinvest uh in the future and
[35:31] basically create opportunity I think
[35:33] that's very very important and are we
[35:36] going to see this well I think it's
[35:41] almost you know a matter of Life of
[35:45] death at some point because what if you
[35:47] never see it yeah so what is left in a
[35:49] few years from now so I think you see
[35:51] more and more people talking about this
[35:54] in more and more country because I think
[35:57] it's a will for uh the people to to
[36:01] really be able to to to have those
[36:04] interesting company do interesting job
[36:06] you know I was talking about SML I was
[36:08] telling you about the pride of our
[36:09] employee I mean any educated person in
[36:12] Europe wants to have a chance to walk in
[36:15] a great company it's fine to talk but is
[36:18] are things happening I think they are
[36:20] happening I think we could easily agree
[36:22] they are too slow I think that uh the
[36:26] dialogue between po politics and
[36:28] Industrial is most probably increasing
[36:30] in Europe uh the challenge most probably
[36:33] will be to make sure we bring the entire
[36:37] population on board because those topics
[36:39] are not always easy to explain and these
[36:42] are not the topic that maybe are the
[36:45] easiest for politician to to pursue to
[36:48] to get elected now Val Hoven is a small
[36:51] uh uh town of 45,000 people uh on the
[36:55] Dutch Belgium border it's not uh it's
[36:57] not the obvious place for one of the one
[36:59] of the most important companies in the
[37:01] world to to be situated how how come you
[37:03] ended up there well I think uh we used
[37:06] to have a a bigger brother called
[37:09] Phillips you know that Phillips used to
[37:10] be an extremely successful uh
[37:14] company uh and Phillips created uh you
[37:17] know Back 40 50 years ago a lot of uh
[37:21] basically a
[37:23] startup and a lot of those startup
[37:25] became uh significant company so asml is
[37:28] one of them I think you know ISM
[37:31] International is another one right so
[37:33] they we come from the same uh same roots
[37:35] in some way and Phillips also had
[37:38] developed this uh culture of innovation
[37:40] so you know SML is sitting in an area
[37:42] that we call the the brand Port uh and
[37:45] the brand Port is still a very Lively uh
[37:49] area in Europe when it comes to
[37:51] Innovation I think that's still built uh
[37:54] on the old concept of of pH so that
[37:57] that's why we are here and I think over
[38:00] time you know we have developed a very
[38:02] strong
[38:03] ecosystem we talk a lot about you know
[38:06] ASL we talked a bit about Z but our
[38:09] supply chain is critical of course you
[38:12] know we talked about the optic but uh
[38:14] mechatronics is very important and all
[38:17] of that is also done in Europe in
[38:19] Netherland in Germany so there's a lot
[38:22] of critical company that are also
[38:26] contributing to Our Success of course
[38:28] they are a lot less known than asml so
[38:30] they are still a bit obscure most
[38:33] probably but they have been growing with
[38:36] with asls I think the whole supply chain
[38:39] around the uh you know uh ven even in
[38:42] ven or IND which is the bigger city on
[38:45] the side are very critical how would you
[38:48] describe the corpor culture at asml I
[38:51] think you
[38:53] know what people usually say first about
[38:57] Asm
[38:58] is that this is a nonpolitical
[39:01] organization meaning that people don't
[39:05] do things basically in order to gain
[39:10] credit for themselves they do things for
[39:12] the good of the company and I think
[39:14] that's something that is very very
[39:17] strong and this create both a style of
[39:20] management but also a style of
[39:23] interaction between between people so
[39:26] I'll give you an example of
[39:28] employees uh feel very natural to
[39:30] challenge us on anything I'm the CEO of
[39:34] the company uh it doesn't mean that
[39:37] people don't argue with me uh no you
[39:40] know when we engage on any topic
[39:42] technical non- technical uh there will
[39:45] be a debate because there is this belief
[39:47] that the debate has to take place to
[39:50] really uh create and bring the best
[39:54] possible decision so that's a bit asml
[39:58] and that culture has been very very
[40:00] solid for many many years of course
[40:02] we've been growing so we we also have to
[40:04] make sure that this culture doesn't go
[40:08] against you know inclusion of the people
[40:10] joining us so it's sometime a bit also
[40:13] rough people thought in the you know in
[40:14] the past this was a bit rough but um the
[40:18] the very high focus on doing what is
[40:21] right for our customer and therefore for
[40:23] the company I think is is at at the core
[40:26] of SML and as a result you see a very
[40:29] open very
[40:31] Lively uh company U it still feel like a
[40:35] family company also you know it's pretty
[40:37] big nowadays of course we have 44,000
[40:39] people so you could say it's pretty big
[40:41] but the the way I know my colleagues the
[40:44] way I know the leadership we we we still
[40:47] feel this is not a very big team uh and
[40:50] that's very interesting so we we have we
[40:51] have kept I would say the essential of
[40:53] the DNA uh while of course finding ways
[40:57] to to scale to to the size we have today
[41:00] in your mind what's the key to good
[41:02] leadership humbleness I would say that's
[41:04] the first world that comes to mind I
[41:06] think you you have to remember humble I
[41:08] think you you have to to remember that
[41:11] you're uh serving a bigger cause I think
[41:14] it's very very important you need to be
[41:17] authentic people have to see you for
[41:19] what you are I think there should be no
[41:23] artificial discussion or there should be
[41:26] no you know attempt to try to please
[41:29] people or to convince people I think you
[41:31] have to be very authentic you have to be
[41:34] direct I think you have to work hard uh
[41:37] lead by example I think you have
[41:41] to stay on content you know sometime
[41:44] when people gets to bigger hole
[41:48] they sometime believe that everything
[41:50] can be solved by processes I think
[41:53] processes are very important to make
[41:55] things happen
[41:57] at scale but content is essential
[42:01] especially in this industry you need to
[42:02] know basically what is happening so that
[42:05] you can anticipate what could happen
[42:08] next you need to be strategic so you
[42:11] have to be able basically to to dream I
[42:13] think being able to dream is very very
[42:15] important for leaders and at the same
[42:17] time you have to be able to explain that
[42:20] dream in a very simple way very clear
[42:24] way so that people can translate it into
[42:27] things they can execute on so you see
[42:30] there's a lot of things and I don't know
[42:31] in which order I I brought them to you
[42:33] but
[42:34] that's Let's do let's do two of them um
[42:37] how do you stay on content well that
[42:40] that's that's easy uh because I I don't
[42:43] know how to do it differently so for for
[42:45] me that's that's uh you know if I if I
[42:48] don't have content discussion with my
[42:51] engineer my operation people my sales
[42:53] people my customer my supplier
[42:57] I feel I do something wrong because I
[42:59] feel that I lose the connection to what
[43:02] is essential you know I often tell the
[43:05] people in smml if we if our customer
[43:08] trust us if we do the right product for
[43:12] them because we understand them because
[43:14] we listen to them I think the rest will
[43:17] be fine we have to manage the company in
[43:19] a very good way but we will be fine in
[43:21] fact we'll be more than fine but those
[43:23] two things customer trust having the
[43:27] right product that's content you you
[43:31] don't have that if you don't have
[43:33] content and therefore for me if I don't
[43:36] have access to this information for for
[43:39] a bit I I will very quickly feel that
[43:42] I'm I'm mostly not leading the company
[43:44] in the right way why is storytelling
[43:46] important storytelling is important
[43:49] because you need to be able to explain
[43:51] people why things are
[43:54] important and the only way to do that is
[43:56] to
[43:58] simplify I could tell you euv is very
[44:01] complex I prefer to tell you euv is very
[44:04] simple you ask me to explain you UV in
[44:06] one minute I think that's the right
[44:08] question because you need to be able to
[44:12] explain what you do and if it takes you
[44:16] too many words to do that then you don't
[44:20] explain it ever so I think it's very
[44:21] important to to the story telling is
[44:24] very important the simplification the
[44:26] clarity around what you do I think is
[44:28] very important where did you learn it I
[44:30] think you learn it over time you see
[44:33] people doing that you also see the
[44:35] effect of having a simple Story versus a
[44:38] complicated story and I think you need
[44:40] to have affinity for it I think that
[44:42] there's part of it which is your own
[44:44] character I think uh you
[44:46] know you know there are things that most
[44:50] probably you are born with I will say
[44:52] and that's helpful but I think you if
[44:55] you pay attention to it and I invite
[44:57] usually my my emplo to do that to if you
[45:00] pay attention on how far you will go if
[45:02] you give a simple story and people
[45:05] understand it if you can make your case
[45:07] I think making your case is a very
[45:08] important thing I always say you you you
[45:10] cannot convince people you you have to
[45:12] give them the element so they convince
[45:14] themselves because it's a lot more
[45:16] powerful uh but if you practice that I
[45:19] think you you you realize that this is
[45:21] powerful and and maybe over time you get
[45:23] better at it but this for me is very
[45:25] very important what is driving you
[45:29] personally uh I think you know if you if
[45:31] you are to go really deep
[45:33] psychologically uh I I think solving
[45:36] problem I think you know I I always say
[45:39] if I look at the different uh job I had
[45:42] in my career I think they have this they
[45:44] have a few common points solving problem
[45:47] is one of them so if you're an engineer
[45:49] you know you have a a problem you look
[45:51] at
[45:52] data and then you come to a solution I
[45:55] think the the same still true if you're
[45:57] a CEO of course the problem is a bit
[45:59] different you look at the problem is
[46:01] mostly what what does this industry need
[46:03] in the next five
[46:05] years uh second problem is how do we
[46:08] make it happen third problem is how do
[46:10] we found it etc etc but these are still
[46:12] problem you have to solve and I think
[46:14] you have to make the problem again
[46:17] simple so that you can have a solution
[46:19] if you think the problem is complex you
[46:22] will never solve it right that's the way
[46:24] it works so solving problem drives me I
[46:28] think the contact with people is is a
[46:31] major driver I you know I feel blessed
[46:34] in this industry I mean everyone you
[46:36] meet is is just inspiring I mean you you
[46:40] go have a talk a dinner or a meeting
[46:44] with anyone in the semiconductor
[46:46] industry it's just a blast because
[46:48] people have great experience they they
[46:51] are pretty humble I think they share
[46:53] this need to bring something positive
[46:56] and again maybe this need to solve
[46:58] problems together and I think the
[47:01] connection to people has been always a
[47:04] very very very motivating factor in uh
[47:08] in in my career still today and you know
[47:11] the last thing I would say is I enjoy
[47:14] what I do very much so I I take really
[47:16] great pleasure in uh in doing what I do
[47:18] in SML and you know this is true today
[47:21] but it's been true for the last 25 years
[47:23] in this inury there's not been one
[47:26] boring day
[47:27] [Laughter]
[47:29] good for you uh so Kristof if you were
[47:31] to to go a bit deep um why do you work
[47:33] so hard is it uh a particular person you
[47:35] want to you want to prove wrong or you
[47:38] know does it does it come back to some
[47:41] type of inferiority complex that we all
[47:43] had when we were younger or what do you
[47:44] think no there is a time in your career
[47:46] I think you have to be honest I think
[47:48] the first part of your career is about
[47:49] proving yourself I I think I truly
[47:52] believe that and I truly believe that
[47:55] because I I I still remember the day I
[47:58] felt I was done with that there was a
[48:01] day I say okay I think I have proven
[48:03] what I wanted to prove to myself maybe
[48:05] to my friends my family and then you
[48:09] look forward you say okay what's next
[48:10] and I think what's next after that is
[48:13] okay what what can I do to help and you
[48:17] know where is the place where I can do
[48:19] something that that matters that can
[48:21] really
[48:22] help and you know when I became the CEO
[48:27] of SML when people asked me to become
[48:28] the CEO of SML this this was one of the
[48:31] two question I really had the the
[48:34] question was really if I'm going to do
[48:36] that can I really bring something this
[48:38] company is great you know with Peter
[48:40] Martin before they have done something
[48:43] extraordinary even intimidating for most
[48:45] people so if I do it am I going to do
[48:48] something that could be you know really
[48:50] good and it was very important for me to
[48:53] to be able to answer yes to that
[48:55] question in all h y you know not uh but
[48:59] very fundamentally I think it's for me
[49:01] that when you don't have to prove
[49:03] anything anymore I think it's very
[49:04] liberating so I wish everyone that this
[49:07] come as early as possible in their
[49:08] career and then you have more space
[49:10] basically to really think about what can
[49:12] I do to be useful or what can I do to to
[49:14] help tell me about the day where you
[49:16] felt you had no more to prove well it
[49:18] was you know I always wanted to uh
[49:21] either run my company or or or run what
[49:24] I would call a company within a company
[49:26] and this happened in ASL in fact when I
[49:29] took one of the the the the the product
[49:33] unit this was the application product
[49:34] unit which was a very new uh uh unit uh
[49:39] I'm Looking Back Now 2011 or 12 I forgot
[49:42] exactly so more than 10 years ago and
[49:45] and this this was really what I wanted I
[49:48] never wanted to become CEO I never
[49:49] wanted to be part of a board of
[49:51] management I I wanted to do that and
[49:54] then I had it I did it and it went well
[49:57] and then I I I after that most probably
[49:59] I was more free than ever and I think in
[50:02] many way this most probably what also
[50:04] allowed me to to come to to where I am
[50:06] today how do you relax well I don't get
[50:09] stress so that's the best way to relax
[50:12] is you know I was just explaining to one
[50:13] of my employee today that uh you know
[50:17] stress is not a good friend so I I'm you
[50:20] know it's I don't know if if this is
[50:24] surprising or not but I don't feel
[50:27] stress even being a ASMR CEO so that's
[50:31] one thing and when I want to do
[50:34] something that I really like you know uh
[50:37] I I I I like to go to the Opera that's
[50:39] one thing I like I like music a lot so
[50:41] you know I put it's nice things with
[50:43] technology nowadays you put the airport
[50:45] and you can be in your uh in your world
[50:47] with your music I likees to do that a
[50:49] lot uh I like to sport when I have a
[50:52] time I love to be with my family with
[50:54] the kids because the you know what is
[50:56] nice with children is they they force
[50:58] you to forget everything uh simple
[51:01] things I would say very very simple
[51:03] things uh I I find them very healthy and
[51:08] by having them all the time for me I
[51:10] think you know it never bring me to to
[51:13] to a place where I feel stressed how do
[51:15] you make sure you don't get stressed is
[51:17] it genetic or is it something you have
[51:19] trained I think most probably something
[51:21] I have trained because well I don't I
[51:24] would not say my parents were not
[51:26] stressed so I think most something I've
[51:27] trained maybe also as a reaction to that
[51:30] but uh I I like you know when I need to
[51:34] think when I need to decide I I like to
[51:36] feel that I'm calm uh I I I feel that
[51:41] usually it's a much better State of Mind
[51:43] basically to to make decision so I think
[51:47] it's practice you know some people do
[51:49] yoga or things like that to reach that I
[51:51] don't do that but that's that's more in
[51:53] a I notice breathing is very important
[51:56] you know the way you breathe in life is
[51:58] very important I I always tell people
[52:00] when you're going to make a big
[52:01] presentation you have to watch the way
[52:03] you are going to breathe for the first
[52:05] 30 seconds because if you if you breathe
[52:08] too fast then your your uh presentation
[52:12] will go wrong very quickly so you have
[52:14] little things like that but uh I think
[52:16] it's it's practice most probably when do
[52:19] you go to bed and when you wake up well
[52:21] that depends uh entirely uh I would say
[52:25] uh you know in in normal uh Day meaning
[52:29] when I'm at home and uh you know I would
[52:31] say I'll sleep seven hours maybe six
[52:33] seven hours uh when I travel uh that can
[52:37] go down to 3 four hours and that doesn't
[52:39] disturb me so you know the energy level
[52:44] my energy level is usually pretty high
[52:47] and I need to rest you know usually
[52:50] short time so some sometime I can fall
[52:52] asleep in a car it's happened very often
[52:54] between the meetings and 10 minutes can
[52:57] get me back to uh to the max energy
[53:00] level so you know it's one of the
[53:02] challenges I think with this life and I
[53:04] think physically you have to to be able
[53:06] to take it but you you don't have a
[53:08] rhythm you have to learn to live without
[53:11] you know a rhythm because if you want to
[53:13] have a rhythm I think it's complet C so
[53:15] you have to learn how to sleep in the
[53:17] plane sleep in the car all those things
[53:19] are important where does energy come
[53:21] from you think I think I I I think it
[53:23] comes to to what I said before I mean
[53:26] you know doing what I do today is uh is
[53:29] an unbelievable PR privilege I mean
[53:32] being the CEO of ASL
[53:34] is you know there's so many good
[53:37] interesting exciting things happening
[53:39] every day that the energy just flow you
[53:42] know it's like coming from all parts I
[53:45] told you about the people I meet I mean
[53:46] every time I go see customers
[53:49] suppliers the the discussion we have are
[53:52] so so uh deep right so
[53:57] exciting I mean we talk about so
[53:59] exciting stuff I mean you know when you
[54:02] grow as an engineer you know I study
[54:03] science right and you work in a company
[54:06] that pretty much allow you to do any of
[54:09] your dream as long as they become a
[54:12] product someone can use in a factory I
[54:15] mean you know did we dream about
[54:17] anything different when we were engineer
[54:19] I I don't think so so that give you a
[54:22] lot of energy what do you read I like to
[54:24] read literature
[54:27] ER you know novels because I I like to
[54:30] to kind
[54:31] of move away so if I have free time I'm
[54:34] not going to read Business book I don't
[54:36] like Business book sorry for anyone
[54:38] writing them but I I don't find this
[54:41] inspiring at all uh I like uh novels I
[54:45] like people that create and that's what
[54:48] you see in novels right has there been a
[54:50] novel which has been particularly
[54:51] important for you well I there a French
[54:53] writer I like very much it's called uh
[54:55] it's called I don't know if you if you
[54:57] know him and he wrote a book it's called
[54:59] The Stranger he has a lot of very good
[55:02] book I like also Andre malro so they are
[55:05] contemporary writer uh I like the style
[55:08] I like the the modernity of it and and
[55:11] also the the creativity so it's very
[55:14] interesting it's both creative but not
[55:15] in a in a very obvious way like maybe
[55:18] older uh literature I like his story
[55:21] book also I like to read a lot
[55:24] biography um because you you learn about
[55:27] people life uh which sometime can be
[55:30] also very uh inspiring so that's
[55:33] typically the the kind of things I I
[55:35] would read last question um what advice
[55:38] do you have for young people well I
[55:40] think you know is find something you
[55:44] really like you know I think don't think
[55:47] too much about your career I I I see too
[55:49] many young people who come to see
[55:51] me and they want to be CEO and they ask
[55:55] me how do we become CEO and and I try to
[55:58] explain them in the nicest possible way
[56:00] that this is a this is almost an absurd
[56:02] question this is not the right question
[56:04] the right question is what am I going to
[56:06] do tomorrow that really get me excited
[56:08] that really bring the best out of me
[56:11] because if you go and do that every day
[56:14] yeah there may be a chance you become
[56:16] CEO uh most probably a bigger chance
[56:18] that you don't uh but you will equally
[56:21] end up doing something that brings you
[56:24] uh Joy energy
[56:27] and most also bring that to the people
[56:28] around you so I think it's very
[56:32] important to enjoy the moment but really
[56:34] find something you like I think it's
[56:35] even start when you you you study you
[56:37] you have to study something you like uh
[56:40] of course I will advise them to to take
[56:43] a look at this industry because I I I
[56:44] think this is a great place but you know
[56:47] I also don't know everything so I I I
[56:49] will not limited to that but I think
[56:51] it's very very important for them
[56:53] to to not think too much I I you know
[56:57] I think it's one uh problem when Society
[56:59] get so smart over time right people
[57:02] think too much I think you you have to
[57:03] be able to enjoy the moment even if you
[57:05] are very very smart well Christoph it's
[57:07] very clear that you are enjoy enjoying
[57:10] your job as Co of asml uh incredibly
[57:14] important job and so please on behalf of
[57:16] all of us uh keep shrinking those chips
[57:19] so that the world can continue to move
[57:21] forward we'll do our best wonderful big
[57:23] thank you thank you very much n
[57:28] oh