# Catherine Lim on BBC Peschardt's People Part 2/2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2SySms_j9g

[00:13] Welcome back to Singapore, where we're with international best-selling author Katherine Lynn, whose novels have brought to life aspects of Asian culture and even history she fears are in danger of being forgotten.
[00:26] The pace of change in Asia is such that for many young Singaporeans, it is almost impossible to comprehend the hardships faced by their parents.
[00:38] Katherine herself was brought up in Malaysia and remembers all too well the state of emergency there during the communist uprising towards the end of British rule.
[00:51] The the town that I was born in, Kulip, right, it was really a red town, right?
[00:57] Red town.
[00:57] Red re meaning it was
[01:01] blacklisted.
[01:04] It was a town of great activity by the communist gerillas.
[01:06] You know around Kulim were these little secondary jungles and Kulim inhabitants in fact were suspected of helping these gerillas.
[01:13] They were punished very severely hauled off to prison.
[01:17] I remember some of our neighbors you know for giving rice and and medicine and so on.
[01:21] It was a time of great brutality, wasn't it?
[01:23] Brutality. Brutality on both sides.
[01:26] I think you know as a little girl I remember my maid servant used to take me I don't know why she did it to the marketplace where the bodies the the the dead bodies killed terrorists were taken to the marketplace to be exhibited as a kind of warning as a kind of deterrent to sympathize that all I saw that I saw that as a child slightly mundanely.
[01:51] Katherine and I were actually on the way to the local supermarket to do her weekly shop.
[01:56] So, we just put that in that and away we go.
[01:58] Now, what do we
[02:01] Need? Oh, we need a whole lot of things.
[02:04] Oh my god. Oh my god. Look at my shopping list.
[02:10] I want grapes. Okay. Ah, okay. So, this is our weekly shop.
[02:13] Is it? This is sometimes u twice in 10 days maybe.
[02:18] Now, I love these grapes. Ah, this is wonderful.
[02:22] It seemed as good a time as any to bring up Katherine's enduring criticism of the way her country is being run.
[02:31] I can understand why you you're a critic of of of the government, but also you have to say this is one of the most successful economies in the world.
[02:44] We're at your supermarket. There's everything here. It's clean. It's fresh. There's a lot to there's a lot to thank the government for, isn't there?
[02:51] Absolutely.
[02:52] I think I think even the government's greatest critic and detractor will say that this PAP government, the ruling government has done a tremendous amount.
[03:02] Oh yes, Singapore has one of the highest standards of living in Asia, if not the world.
[03:06] But I'll come to the butt later, right?
[03:12] It's the cleanest, greenest city.
[03:12] It's safe.
[03:15] I'm completely happy here.
[03:15] I get what I want.
[03:18] But now the big butt is Yes.
[03:18] Okay.
[03:21] Ah, I do not know whether we are paying too high a price for this.
[03:25] There is very little political liberty and this is something that even the government will grudgingly admit.
[03:32] In other words, Singaporeans I think are agitating for some of the liberties that they see around them that are taken for granted in a democracy.
[03:42] the liberty to voice their their views freely.
[03:47] But there's nothing stopping you.
[03:49] You and I are talking and we're we couldn't be in a more public place.
[03:53] But you know, in a general way, there is this thing called fear in Singapore.
[03:58] It's not the kind of fear that you get in a police state.
[04:00] You know, the fear of looking over your No, no, no.
[04:02] This is a fear of losing the
[04:05] good life that you are that you have been given.
[04:07] So if you are seen to be too much of a troublemaker, maybe you won't get your next promotion.
[04:12] All right.
[04:14] So that that you think happens.
[04:14] Yes.
[04:16] Well, that is the fear anyway.
[04:16] I mean you you get irrational fear like a friend of mine, highly educated woman who told me, "Look, I don't want to vote for the government.
[04:27] I want to vote for the opposition, but I can't."
[04:29] That was in the last general election.
[04:30] I said, "Why not? For goodness sake."
[04:32] She said, "If I do that, my son-in-law won't get his promotion."
[04:36] You see completely irrational fear but it is irrational fear.
[04:38] I mean and yet it it works.
[04:41] In other words, it's it serves the government's purpose very well.
[04:48] But it's it's hard to self censorship.
[04:50] But it's easy to forget in many ways that 30 40 years ago there was very little here.
[04:54] There was nothing like this.
[04:56] This was beyond anybody's imagination.
[05:00] Oh yes yes yes.
[05:02] by any
[05:07] Standard you use any criterion.
[05:09] Singapore has advanced so marvelously.
[05:12] I mean you you take housing, you take transportation, you take education, recreation, everything.
[05:19] The government has outperformed itself.
[05:22] But you know the my big butt here it seems to me for a for a maturing society you've got to match this with political awareness, political consciousness.
[05:30] I'm very very aware of the fact that this tiny little society of mine my country is in a very politically volatile region.
[05:36] You would need people with a strong civic sensibilities people who will be prepared to die for their country.
[05:48] You need to build up a a a strong feeling among the people which I suspect is not there.
[05:53] In fact, now and again you hear debates about does do Singaporeans have an identity and a young minister's a minister's young son 10 years old asking his father why should I die for Singapore.
[06:05] The father actually brought
[06:07] it up you know as a public issue.
[06:08] So there you are and I am convinced that this sort of thing has to be built from the ground.
[06:13] It cannot be built from the top.
[06:15] You must allow people to voice their views.
[06:18] Now there will be a lot of messiness in the in the process.
[06:23] You know whenever you have change like that whenever you allow for this kind of change you're going to have disruption.
[06:29] you're going to have a few bad hats demagogues and so this is a government that is so terrified of what they call mess the noise of democracy they want everything to be perfectly ordered but my point is you know democracy is such a wonderful thing you've got to pay a price and we can afford that price maybe not 50 years ago when Singapore was all a little frontier town when there was a lot of communist activity, tribe activity.
[06:57] But now here is a very strong government that has got everything in place, all the mechanisms for control.
[07:04] You wouldn't have extremist elements here.
[07:06] It is hard to be sure exactly what
[07:10] lies beneath the surface of public opinion here.
[07:13] But there is no outward sign that she speaks for the majority.
[07:18] The government may not like her views much, but they're certainly more tolerant now than in the past.
[07:26] 15 years ago, she was more or less removed from public view.
[07:30] None of the mainstream newspapers would publish her opinions after she wrote her first article laying out her critique of the government.
[07:39] I wrote two political commentaries and had no idea they would create such a storm.
[07:45] This sort of thing wouldn't happen today.
[07:47] That was a time I think when they were
[07:48] What did you actually say?
[07:49] What was the
[07:52] Well, I drew attention.
[07:52] This is a critical commentary.
[07:53] I drew attention to something which I think was clear to everybody that there was a great emotional estrangement between the government and the people which I call the great effective divide.
[08:04] In fact, it's become part of the political lexicon now.
[08:07] The great effective divide meaning that despite the material
[08:12] achievements, people were not happy.
[08:15] the electorate was getting more sophisticated.
[08:16] They were aware that very little political and civic liberties were given that maybe even the material wealth would be not uh uh uh enough compensation for the lack of this.
[08:32] And on my part I keep saying that true democracy democracy in the real sense of the word must mean an education of the people raising their level of political awareness.
[08:46] There's the complaint that Singaporeans are politically very apathetic.
[08:48] Well, that's because we've never had the chance.
[08:53] It is hard to believe, but Katherine is now in her late 60s.
[08:55] There is no sign of her slowing down or staying silent.
[08:58] She's been a striden advocate for women's rights in Asia.
[09:03] But nevertheless, she insisted that we film part of our interview while she was wearing her Chong Tum.
[09:09] She is fiercely
[09:12] proud of the elegance of Asian traditional dressed.
[09:17] The Chong Sam is is looked upon as a pretty tentalizing costume.
[09:23] You know the the Suzie Wong kind of aura around it.
[09:25] Huh?
[09:25] Look at the Japanese kimono.
[09:27] Have you men ever noticed that the kimono there so modest?
[09:30] is deliberately pushed at the back.
[09:32] Pushed outwards at the back in order to reveal that gorgeous neck that the back of the neck that is beautifully revealed when the woman piles up her hair.
[09:41] Oh, I see.
[09:41] Oh, yes.
[09:44] And the sauron kabaya, the Malay costume, it is transparent.
[09:46] Deliberately transparent.
[09:49] The form fitting one that my mother used to wear.
[09:50] So there are Is that all okay?
[09:55] It's okay.
[09:55] It's okay.
[09:55] It's a form of It's a concession to the men.
[09:57] I think the men like to look at us this way, so we we we indulge you.
[10:03] Her home is filled with pictures of her family and her past, but each day she writes at her computer for hours.
[10:09] I don't think I've met someone
[10:15] approaching her 70s with quite such vigor.
[10:17] She's done a great deal with her life already, but you do get the sense that there is an awful lot more to do right now.
[10:27] you know the problems of aging and so on don't concern me I'm just enjoying life so much working on my new book and so on and just relishing my freedom I think independence for me is so important because I'm just free to do what I like I got out of a out of a marriage that was conventional in many senses of the word and I was just so happy to be free I was happy to get out of my religion you see what how independent how defiant in fact I am and then I was happy to get out of my job as a civil servant.
[10:56] So I kept getting out of what I thought slightly oppressive situations and now this is extremely wonderful in my 60s.
[11:03] I'm enjoying a kind of independence as long as I keep my good health and spirits.
[11:11] I think it should be okay.
[11:12] You have a sort of a vitality that many people would love to
[11:18] have.
[11:18] What's the secret?
[11:21] Oh, I suppose it's got to do with my personality.
[11:25] It's difficult to explain, but even as a child, I was curious.
[11:28] Maybe there's something to do with it.
[11:30] Curious about life, curious about people, a little bit of a nosy parker.
[11:34] I always wanted to know what was happening.
[11:36] And I love knowledge.
[11:38] In other words, there are just so many things to do.
[11:40] I'm never bored.
[11:43] And I keep wanting to to to to say, "Hey, what new thing and I'm going to see?
[11:47] What new book and I'm going to read today?
[11:49] What new knowledge?
[11:51] Now, this has made me supremely happy.
[11:54] I must be the only woman in Singapore, one of the very few women who love quantum physics.
[12:02] Well, I'm sure that that thirst for knowledge must be very very vital to to the person you are.
[12:09] It's been an absolute pleasure meeting you.
[12:11] It's been a great day.
[12:12] Thanks ever so much for being on the program.
[12:14] My pleasure too.
[12:14] My pleasure.
[12:16] Next week, we're off to buy a brand new
[12:19] Plane.
[12:19] Meet Gerard Jolingum, one of the world's leading commercial test pilots, as we find out exactly what needs to be done before an aircraft is pronounced fit to fly.
[12:30] Gerard Jingum, he's with me this week.
[12:36] [Music]