# Career Criminal Exposes Legal Loopholes, BEATING A Federal Prison LIFE SENTENCE (Must See!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Df0OD3BS7o

[00:00] I was I was the person that you could call call take a gun let me I need a pistol from you you know I will I come get it.
[00:08] They're giving me my firearm back and they're also handing me some money.
[00:11] What were they doing?
[00:12] Just committing robberies.
[00:15] Then I found myself becoming more involved.
[00:15] Were taking part in these robberies?
[00:16] Yep.
[00:20] You're getting 20 30,000 in 2 minutes.
[00:20] And then you think you can do it again.
[00:23] And then you think you can do it again and get away with it.
[00:28] April 7th of 2006 um I received uh 20 life sentences.
[00:30] The day I got sentenced my sentence was illegal.
[00:33] My lawyer should have knew that.
[00:34] The judge should have knew that she couldn't impose the sentence that she imposed.
[00:38] The US Attorney's office should have knew that they should have never charged me with the 3559 statute the federal three strikes law because my priors didn't qualify me for it.
[00:47] Everybody supposed to know this.
[00:50] This is Carlos McCloudry a former federal inmate sentenced to 18 life sentences for a string of armed robberies he committed in the mid-2000s.
[01:00] from a working-class neighborhood in St. Paul, Minnesota and was a gangster and a drug dealer from a young age.
[01:06] He caught multiple shooting cases while he was still a teenager.
[01:10] But his life really fell apart when he and his crew started doing violent stick-ups of video poker games throughout the Minneapolis-St. Paul area.
[01:17] Dozens and dozens of them.
[01:20] When the feds finally got involved Carlos was the only member of his crew to take his case to trial.
[01:26] But of course his so-called friends ratted on him and [music] Carlos was sentenced to 18 life terms.
[01:31] Insanity.
[01:35] It took Carlos years of fighting his sentence from inside of prison before he was able to prove that his sentence was in fact illegal.
[01:41] [music] Finally in 2022 he was resentenced and set free after almost two decades behind bars and is today a completely changed man.
[01:48] Carlos' case exposes the corruption of the justice system top to bottom from the prosecution to the judges and even his defense lawyers.
[01:57] Carlos explains why it
[02:00] is vital for criminal defendants to be knowledgeable of the law and to fight for themselves.
[02:05] For anyone out there fighting a case or who has a loved one in prison serving an unjust sentence, pay close attention.
[02:12] Carlos' story might help.
[02:14] Ladies and gentlemen, back from the dead, it's Carlos MacAdory right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell.
[02:23] You grew up in Minneapolis?
[02:26] St. Paul.
[02:26] Okay.
[02:26] What was life like?
[02:29] Um Childhood?
[02:29] Childhood was good, you know.
[02:33] Um Single You know, my mother was a you know, it was a single household, myself and my older brother.
[02:38] Um you know, my brother and I, you know, we we we were thick as thieves, you know, we were together.
[02:45] It was just myself, him, and my mother.
[02:45] Um both our fathers, you know, they lived down south in Minnea- I'm not Minneapolis, but in Mississippi.
[02:51] Um and so frequently, you know, we would see our fathers, whether it was through the summertime, um if if our mother sent us down there.
[02:58] Um but for the most part, it was just
[03:00] Myself, my brother, and my mother, you know, and of course, we know there were struggles.
[03:06] You know, um low-income housing, you know.
[03:12] You know, there I mean, there's nothing that you can do about it, you know, if your mother is battling with certain things.
[03:19] Um you have to um just make do with what you got, you know, but for the most part, there was always love.
[03:25] And so, that's what carried us throughout the years and throughout my childhood.
[03:27] It was just the love.
[03:29] Does Minneapolis-Saint Paul, I mean, most people couldn't imagine that there's like a ghetto there or a hood?
[03:34] It's just a freezing cold place and The Mighty Ducks movie took place.
[03:36] Like, what else do people know about it?
[03:42] Right?
[03:44] How would you compare the the hood there to like a place like Chicago or Baltimore?
[03:51] Like, do they have what what we would consider like a ghetto, like an ethnic ghetto?
[03:56] I mean, you With gangbanging and this the funny thing about it is that's
[04:01] what people think.
[04:02] Uh people think that um that you know, Minnesota is up north so there's nothing really going on there but um it's actually cold Minnesota.
[04:10] You know, and I'm not talking about the weather.
[04:13] Mhm.
[04:14] You get what I'm saying?
[04:17] So you um and I think that um for the most part we like it that way.
[04:22] So you um you can come up there, you can sleep on us if you want to.
[04:27] [snorts] saying?
[04:28] So you um and it's funny because it's like um I don't know if you were familiar but a few months back um
[04:35] [clears throat] Bobby Shmurda there was an incident with Bobby Shmurda up there in Minnesota.
[04:38] Um at the club.
[04:38] Um Bobby Shmurda was at the club.
[04:40] I guess he had a disagreement with some guys and you know, they kind of roughed him up, jumped on him.
[04:45] Mhm.
[04:45] You know, and I think that uh people uh were actually surprised or shocked at you know, what actually can happen and transpire but um Minneapolis
[04:55] [clears throat] and St. Paul is a dangerous place.
[04:56] Don't think that it's not, you know, um but Well, I think the George Floyd riots, protests kind of
[05:03] shattered that uh white Minnesota picket fence image that most people have about that place, you know?
[05:10] They're like, "Wow, there's like some really wild, poor, kind of [ __ ] up neighborhoods."
[05:16] Yeah.
[05:18] I mean, it's it's it's um like I said to you, like we got we got we got it.
[05:23] We got hoods.
[05:26] You know, we got they gangbanging in Minnesota for sure.
[05:28] Yeah.
[05:28] Um Well, are you uh are you Spanish?
[05:32] Affiliated? No, I'm not black. I'm African-American.
[05:34] Okay.
[05:35] Yeah, I'm African-American.
[05:35] But your name's Carlos?
[05:36] Yeah, I I mean, I don't I I don't I don't I don't know why my mom did that, you know, but but they did it, you know, so yeah, my name but I'm but I'm but I'm but I'm black for sure.
[05:44] Okay.
[05:45] Absolutely, yeah.
[05:45] Yeah, I think I I think the only people that I mean yeah, I I I assume most people don't even know there's black people in Minneapolis, St. Paul except for like the Somalis.
[05:54] You know what I mean?
[05:56] I don't know I don't know what year it was that they actually migrated to Minnesota though, but you know, when I was coming up the Somalis they weren't
[06:03] up there like that.
[06:04] You know, they came kind of like towards the end before I went to to settle prison.
[06:08] That's when they kind of like started migrating up there, you know, and they have their own community and everything.
[06:12] I'm in Minnesota.
[06:12] Um But they don't Did they gang bang?
[06:14] Of course, yeah, they got gangs I mean they got some Somalian gangs up there.
[06:19] For sure.
[06:19] I I don't I've never been exposed to or been around in myself just because I you know, I choose a different course of direction.
[06:26] You know, for the most part though, but yeah, they definitely got them up there for sure.
[06:29] Do they have black gang like traditional bloods crips?
[06:32] bloods, crips, GDs, they got vice lords.
[06:35] Right.
[06:35] Uh they got stones.
[06:38] Uh they got everything up there.
[06:40] You know, yeah, they got everything.
[06:41] They got what you got the highs in Minneapolis, the lows, you know, they got everything.
[06:45] Chains, the 20s, like it's a lot of gangs up there for sure.
[06:47] Okay, so did you join a gang?
[06:51] I mean I was affiliated.
[06:52] I was affiliated, you know, at one point in time, you know, but I don't um
[06:57] I don't consider myself to be affiliated with anything just because I'm a I'm a grown man.
[07:01] I'm 49 years old, you know, I out I outgrew all that, you know, just
[07:04] being in I'm incarcerated and being in prison, you know, you have to be able to stand on as you know, stand on your own two feet and walk as a man.
[07:12] You know, I don't need no no I don't need no gang to be able to push through through anything, you know, so um but I definitely was definitely affiliation, you know, growing up and coming up in St. Paul, Minnesota for sure.
[07:23] Okay, so were you getting into trouble as you as you grew up a little bit like
[07:27] Yeah, you know, I um I would I would say I jumped off the porch probably at about um 13, 14 years old, you know, 13, 14 years old, you know, just kind of just having that that tough and rough childhood, you know, where um you know, I kind of had to fend for myself as it relates to me just being able to, you know, to get the things that I wanted and needed, you know.
[07:52] Being in the neighborhood and just, you know, you might see, you know, your friends, you know, they got the fresh the fresh shoes, you know, the fresh clothes and stuff like that and that wasn't necessarily always the case in my situation coming up, you know, at at a young age, but I
[08:06] got to a point where you know, I ultimately said, man, listen, enough is enough, man, it's time to go out here and make something happen.
[08:13] So, at about 14, that's when I jumped off the porch.
[08:16] Selling drugs?
[08:16] Yeah, we was really we was doing whatever.
[08:19] Selling Selling drugs, stealing bikes.
[08:21] You know, we was doing whatever we could, you know, to to get a couple dollars, you know, but I just my original goal doing it was just to get clothes and shoes, you know, to make sure that when I came to school I had the the new Jordans, you know, just like the other kids at the school that had them, you know, so that was important to me.
[08:35] Did you go to college?
[08:36] No, I didn't go to college, no.
[08:37] Okay.
[08:39] What was your plan?
[08:40] Uh, you know, of course every you know, every drug dealer's plan is to make a million dollars.
[08:44] Yeah.
[08:44] You know, you jump off the porch, you get in the streets just to make a million dollars, become a millionaire, but it's like um
[08:52] you know, you sometimes even if you see it, you you keep going, you know, because selling dope is easy.
[08:57] It's just like having a conversation.
[08:59] It's not really that complicated to do that.
[09:01] You know, and so that was that was the goal in the end.
[09:02] Did you make a million dollars?
[09:04] No, I didn't make a million dollars, no, no.
[09:05] Were you selling weed?
[09:07] We was selling weed, we was selling cocaine, you know, um.
[09:11] we was selling what what what was back then was crack.
[09:14] That's when that crack era kind of really came around, you know.
[09:17] '89, '90s and stuff like that, you know, that's when that came about.
[09:20] Yeah.
[09:20] Yeah.
[09:22] I bet you could make a bunch of money in Minneapolis selling crack cuz there's if if you bring birds in out of town.
[09:27] you got to like back then it definitely was a lot.
[09:29] Um.
[09:31] it was a lot of money back then.
[09:33] That's why you had people like from California you're there.
[09:36] You had people from Detroit coming there.
[09:37] You had a lot of people coming up there because the money was it was different up there.
[09:40] For sure.
[09:42] Compared to what it is, you know, now.
[09:44] Yeah, it was one of those out-of-town spots where that's like how the Bloods and Crips like started to populate all of these different Midwest towns is that they needed a market for their crack.
[09:56] And that's, you know, to this day that's their legacy.
[09:58] Yeah, for sure.
[10:00] Okay, so you were doing that, selling crack and.
[10:02] Did you catch a case?
[10:05] Did you ever go to state prison?
[10:08] Uh yeah, my first um.
[10:10] my first case that I caught um.
[10:13] uh what what what sent me to state prison was.
[10:17] Um I shot two people.
[10:22] You know, because I had a a disagreement or a dispute with one of the guys that was there and the other guy he just happened to just be you know, custody of war, you know.
[10:30] He just happened to be there so he ultimately got shot as well, too, though, but.
[10:35] um and it was a situation where we had an issue or a dispute over some over some cocaine.
[10:38] Mhm.
[10:38] Yeah, for sure.
[10:40] How old were you when that happened?
[10:42] I was a 17.
[10:43] I got certified as an adult.
[10:47] Um went to trial, lost, and I received a 36 months.
[10:50] That's it?
[10:50] For assault in the second degree, yeah.
[10:53] Cuz it was only it was only second degree assault.
[10:55] Yeah.
[10:55] So the guys lived, they survived?
[10:56] survived, both of them, yeah.
[10:57] Okay, so you only got 3 years?
[10:57] You blew trial and you only got 3 years?
[11:01] Man, I ended up doing 24 months off cuz I and in the state prison at that time you only did 8 months off a year.
[11:08] That's wild.
[11:09] Yeah, so I did 24 months.
[11:09] Wow.
[11:09] Wow.
[11:12] Do you think Minnesota has like pretty compared to other states like less harsh sentencing because it's a more liberal state?
[11:23] Or how do you how do you see that?
[11:24] I mean, you know, it's it's been so long, you know, for me since I was sentenced, you know, I don't really kind of I don't know, like what what that entails now.
[11:35] You know, I don't know what that entails just because I haven't experienced it, you know.
[11:41] I know then it was lenient because I know a couple guys, you know, growing up, you know, at a young age, 16, 17 years old, they caught murder charges and at the time they was only giving out 10, 12 years for it.
[11:55] Right.
[11:56] You know, back then, you know, but now it's different, you know, you you commit murder in the state of Minnesota now, they're going to slam you.
[12:01] Yeah.
[12:02] Yeah, they're going to slam you.
[12:03] Probably because there were so many murders.
[12:04] Yeah, they were And they needed to bring the hammer down.
[12:05] Yeah.
[12:05] Yeah.
[12:07] So, did you realize that that was for
[12:09] shooting a couple of dudes?
[12:10] Like that was like a really just that's like a weed sentence.
[12:13] Yeah.
[12:15] I got 36 months for selling weed.
[12:16] and and ultimately that's what um that's why that's why I never I never woke up.
[12:23] You didn't take it serious.
[12:25] No, I didn't take it serious because you know, you going to state prison, you do time, it's it's it's sweet, it's easy.
[12:29] They going to get you a TV, get you a fan, get you a hot pot, and you kick your feet up, you know, and you just you know, you going to be right back in 18 months, 2 years, you know, so you don't you know, it's just hard to take it serious at all.
[12:43] Uh okay, so you're back out on the street in no time.
[12:45] Yeah.
[12:47] Uh did you you didn't clean yourself up?
[12:49] You went back to it?
[12:50] Went straight back to it.
[12:53] That was the goal.
[12:54] You selling dope?
[12:55] Yeah, that and then just also just being in the streets, you know, you always tell yourself um I just got to be a little bit slicker, you know, um and so um when you go to prison and you don't get caught for drugs, you still think you're a good drug dealer, ultimately, you know, and I went to prison for for shooting two people, so it wasn't for me being caught
[13:09] with no drugs, so of course I could I can I can easily walk back out here and sell some dope, you know, and so that was that's what I did.
[13:16] What is the TMC on your head?
[13:19] Um you know, um it's the marathon continues.
[13:22] Um I'm someone who is a I'm inspired by people young and old.
[13:29] Um and everything that Nipsey Hussle uh represented when it came to the music, everything that he was pushing um as it relates to uh black ownership um it's inspiring.
[13:41] You know, it was always inspiring to me, you know, and so um when I walked out of prison, I walked out with that mindset.
[13:45] And that's why I put it there, you know, cuz that's what it stands for.
[13:49] It's you know, the marathon continues.
[13:51] Did you have some respect in prison like when you went in for shooting a couple of guys?
[13:56] Like does that even matter in Minnesota?
[13:57] I mean it does.
[14:00] system? it does, you know.
[14:02] Um you know, you just in your neighborhood in general, of course people know you.
[14:07] Um and I definitely was somebody who people knew.
[14:11] Like a lot of people absolutely know who I am in my neighborhood, you know, from St. Paul to Minneapolis as well too um for good things and bad things.
[14:19] Absolutely, you know, absolutely.
[14:22] So um you know, people of course respected me um for a lot of things just because of how I carried myself, you know, in the streets and in the fact that I just I wasn't going for anything.
[14:35] You know, even as a young age, I wasn't going for nothing, you know, and so um because I was the young cat in the neighborhood where I don't care if you was a older dude.
[14:45] If you was a older dude and we getting into it hey, look, it is what it is, you know what I'm saying?
[14:50] I wasn't backing down from it.
[14:50] Right.
[14:51] You're not showing respect just cuz they're older.
[14:52] Nah, absolutely not.
[14:54] Not if it's into it.
[14:55] I wasn't doing that.
[14:56] Now, so what happened when you got out of prison?
[14:58] Did you expand your business?
[15:00] Nah, it really wasn't about um expand like I didn't have no I I didn't have no super duper big operation or nothing like that going on, you know.
[15:08] I was just like anybody else in the neighborhood, you know, we just posted
[15:11] up on the block.
[15:14] You know, we walk down sale, we up and down sale, we sometimes cross the bridge, go over to to the other side, you know, and so um that's that's pretty much what it was cuz back then it was it was it was it was easy to sell dope.
[15:24] You can just get on your bike and just ride around and you had you had fiends, you know, that was just everywhere.
[15:30] You know, they was like, "You got some work?"
[15:31] Yeah, yeah, I got it, you know, so we have we might have a big ziplock bag with 9 oz, just bust all down.
[15:38] We got we got we got pills, we got we got eight balls, we got quarters, we got everything, you know what I'm saying?
[15:45] And so and we just get on the bike and just ride or sometimes just walk up and down the block.
[15:49] A bicycle?
[15:50] Absolutely, yeah.
[15:52] That's in Minneapolis.
[15:54] Yeah, it's in St. It was St. Paul.
[15:55] St. Paul, yeah, it was St. Paul.
[15:57] Yeah, but it's an environmentally a sound way to sell dope.
[16:00] Yeah, it was different in Minneapolis.
[16:01] Minneapolis, they was Minneapolis Minneapolis kind of had a little bit more um structure.
[16:07] They were a little bit more territorial.
[16:10] South Minneapolis as well as North
[16:13] They're a little bit more territorial, where it's like um if you or I came over there, they're going to know we're not from over there.
[16:20] You get what I'm saying to you?
[16:21] And if when if we go over there and try to pull something and do something and sell some dope over there, then it's going to it's going to be a problem for sure in Minneapolis or or or North on the North side or the South side.
[16:29] Yeah.
[16:30] Did you have a crew?
[16:30] No, I had no crew.
[16:32] I just had a bunch of homies that I grew up with, friends and you know, best friends and stuff like that.
[16:36] That's the crew.
[16:36] Yeah, we had I mean it was just I mean yeah, I mean I I I was you know, I ain't going to say we had a crew, but it was just it was just my homies.
[16:43] Family.
[16:43] Yeah, you know, yeah, it was just the homies, yeah, for sure.
[16:47] Um okay, so you're you got a an incredibly light sentence for something serious and then as we'll see in a little bit for something less serious, you got the harshest penalty.
[16:58] Right.
[16:58] Which is so crazy.
[17:01] Yeah.
[17:03] Um but you got a felony now, you're on paper.
[17:05] Did you catch another case before your your federal charge?
[17:08] Yeah, I did.
[17:08] Um I had got caught um
[17:14] I got caught with a quarter pound of weed, just on a humbug, you know.
[17:15] Mhm.
[17:18] I just got caught with a quarter pound of weed.
[17:22] I was actually uh driving a a friend's car whose tabs were expired, you know.
[17:24] Got pulled over.
[17:26] Um they find a quarter pound of weed.
[17:29] Go to jail.
[17:31] I was on probation for the shooting still.
[17:33] Right.
[17:34] Um and so when I got got caught with that, um because I had so many uh criminal history points at this particular time from just you know, a bunch of little small little stuff, um it was automatic commit to prison.
[17:46] So, I couldn't get probation or anything for it.
[17:50] So, um I end up getting uh 17 months um in prison um where I only served, I want to say I think it was like 12 months.
[17:58] Um and I and I was released.
[18:00] Um and then just went back to the same thing all over again as well, too.
[18:04] And then I would say I probably was out maybe three or four months before I caught my second shooting my second shooting.
[18:10] What happened with that?
[18:12] Uh second shooting,
[18:15] um was a guy again, there was an issue and a dispute and a disagreement um over drugs.
[18:22] Um and I shot him.
[18:25] You know, I shot him.
[18:27] And so, um that one was a heavier sentence.
[18:29] That one was a 52-month sentence.
[18:31] Damn, you're really uh about that thug
[18:35] I mean, I was at that time for sure.
[18:36] Wow.
[18:38] Wow.
[18:38] So, the guy survived again?
[18:40] Yeah, he got he survived.
[18:40] So, you were hard, but you were a lousy shot.
[18:42] Yeah.
[18:42] I mean, you know, it wasn't it wasn't even so much as
[18:46] I mean, you know, when when you're when you when you're young, it's like everything is really off impulse.
[18:50] You know what I'm saying to you?
[18:52] Um the second guy, I wasn't trying to I wasn't trying to kill the second guy.
[18:55] I shot him in his ass.
[18:56] That was really just more of a statement than anything.
[18:58] Yeah.
[18:59] You know, yeah.
[18:59] I wasn't trying to I wasn't trying to kill him.
[19:01] Yeah.
[19:01] Cuz if I wanted to kill him, I could have killed him, but I wasn't trying to kill him.
[19:03] I was in the car with him.
[19:05] Yeah.
[19:06] Had you shoot him in the ass when he was in the car?
[19:07] Cuz he was trying to hop out.
[19:08] Uh Yeah, so when he tried to hop out and run, that's when I shot him.
[19:10] Damn, dude.
[19:12] I got jacked back in the day
[19:16] for a couple pounds of weed and the kid jumped out of the car.
[19:19] I should have just shot him in his ass.
[19:21] I didn't have a gun though.
[19:22] I never carried a gun.
[19:22] Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
[19:24] Uh, that's Yeah, so you So you got a lot a longer sentence now.
[19:27] So you're you're racking up you're racking up a criminal history, which is relevant when we talk about, you know, the thing that changed your life.
[19:35] Yeah.
[19:35] Um, so you went back to prison.
[19:38] Mhm.
[19:41] Uh, is there like Are you in like a maximum security prison?
[19:42] Like what is Minnesota State Prison like?
[19:44] It's like you got It's called It's like close custody.
[19:46] You're behind the wall, but it's not like no You you kind of can consider it a maximum cuz we have a supermax facility in Minnesota.
[19:51] It's It's called Oak Park Heights.
[19:53] Oh.
[19:55] Um, it's built underground.
[19:58] Um, and they do house some federal inmates there.
[20:00] Like if the if there's guys in the federal system, they can't be in that federal circuit, they'll hide them in Oak Park Heights.
[20:07] And it's underground.
[20:09] Yeah, it's underground.
[20:10] Supermax.
[20:11] Is it because it's so cold that's why they built it underground?
[20:14] know why they did that, but it but that's how That's a supermax facility,
[20:17] Oak Park Heights. Okay, so you didn't go
[20:18] there?
[20:19] >> No, I didn't go there. I was in
[20:20] Stillwater. Okay. Uh, Stillwater is the
[20:22] same class, which is like they're like
[20:23] you kind of can consider it a max, but
[20:26] it's it's close custody.
[20:28] And do you have enemies in there for for
[20:31] shooting people or Do you have to Do you
[20:34] have to run Are you hustling in there?
[20:37] Nah, nah, state state was different. You
[20:39] know, state was like gladiator school.
[20:40] You know, of course we're going to go in
[20:41] there, you're going to fight. Um, you
[20:44] know, you're going to see probably dudes
[20:45] that, you know,
[20:47] that you may have had issues with, but
[20:49] for the most part,
[20:50] uh, like I said, you like me and the
[20:52] people that I grew up with were
[20:54] respected, you know, and we were feared.
[20:55] Like we never really had no issues. Like
[20:57] I ain't never had no issues in prison.
[20:59] Right.
[20:59] >> Yeah, no state prison not at all. What
[21:01] are the demographics in a Minnesota
[21:03] State Prison?
[21:05] Um, you had blacks, you had whites, you
[21:08] had Native Americans. For sure, yeah.
[21:10] Um, and it's crazy because actually
[21:13] um, when I was doing time in the state,
[21:15] the Native Americans were the ones who
[21:16] was really going the hardest.
[21:18] Yeah. They was going there they they
[21:19] were going the hardest. Like they were
[21:20] big on
[21:21] respect. They was big on everything, you
[21:23] know? And so, when it came to um,
[21:27] whites or when it came to the blacks,
[21:29] um, you know, we really like we really
[21:31] just it was us just really passing time
[21:33] and passing through there and getting
[21:34] about me. Yeah. So
[21:35] >> had But you had you had situations with
[21:37] racism.
[21:38] >> Right. Um, so how long did you do on
[21:41] that second shooting? Uh, 52 months is
[21:43] what they gave me. I did uh, 37 months.
[21:45] Okay. So you did 3 years. Did
[21:49] I mean, are you By the way, did your boy
[21:52] that you shot, did he snitch on you?
[21:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. He called out So
[21:55] everybody's telling.
[21:56] >> Yeah, yeah.
[21:57] Uh,
[21:59] it's like people are always like, "Ah,
[22:00] nowadays everybody tells." I think
[22:02] everybody's been telling always. Yeah.
[22:04] You know what I mean? Some people, yeah.
[22:06] Um, okay. So, and and did you do that
[22:09] stretch? You do that time like standing
[22:11] on your head? Yeah, I mean I did
[22:12] [clears throat] it was a that was a
[22:14] little tougher tougher bit I would say.
[22:17] Um, just because uh, the first bit I had
[22:19] a really good support system just, you
[22:21] know,
[22:22] um, with my kids' mother. Um, but she
[22:24] had told me that after the first time
[22:26] she said, "Listen, you go back, I'm not
[22:27] going to be there." Right.
[22:28] >> Um, and so, uh, when I went back at the
[22:31] time, too, I had actually um,
[22:34] I had spent so much money uh, trying to
[22:37] fight the case that when I walked in
[22:38] there I was broke.
[22:40] You know what I'm saying? And so, um,
[22:42] but of course, you know, I I had a few
[22:44] people that looked out for me, you know,
[22:45] and I was able to get the things that I
[22:46] needed when I originally went in, but
[22:48] um, but I would I would was a little
[22:49] tougher um, just because there wasn't
[22:52] the same support system
[22:53] >> For sure.
[22:53] >> as before, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah,
[22:55] and but it sounds like you got the balls
[22:57] to like go to court, like to take the
[22:59] [ __ ] to trial. No, I copped out I I I
[23:01] copped out on I copped out on the second
[23:03] one. The second one I I copped out.
[23:05] Second I didn't I didn't blow trial on
[23:06] the on the second one. Yeah, first one I
[23:08] did though. Okay, so what was your
[23:09] mindset coming home from that second
[23:12] bid? That second long bid for the
[23:14] shooting. Um it was pretty much the same
[23:17] mindset.
[23:19] Um it wasn't anything different. Um I
[23:21] just kind of like switched a little
[23:23] things up.
[23:24] Um just as it relates to um how I
[23:27] hustled. You get what I'm saying? It was
[23:28] no longer on the block. It was it was
[23:30] off the phone now. Right. You get what
[23:32] I'm saying to you?
[23:33] Um cuz like I said you back in the days
[23:35] it was you could just you could walk up
[23:37] the street. You could ride the bike. You
[23:38] could do whatever, but now everything is
[23:40] off the phone, you know? So just pretty
[23:42] much doing that and then trying not to
[23:43] be
[23:44] um
[23:45] as seen, you know, as much. You know,
[23:48] what's the what's the what's the
[23:49] mission? What year was that? I got out
[23:52] uh
[23:53] 2001. Okay. That's when I got out. And
[23:55] then you caught your federal case in
[23:56] 2004.
[23:57] >> Yep, 2004. Okay, so what what happened
[24:00] in those years? Uh just like I said to
[24:02] you just just just pretty much just
[24:04] getting back and just doing the same
[24:05] thing.
[24:06] Um of course I was just a little bit
[24:08] older. I wasn't you know I wasn't still
[24:09] in my uh like early 20s, mid 20s. Um as
[24:13] as the age I was at though. So
[24:15] um just pretty much just getting back to
[24:17] it doing the exact same thing. Um the
[24:19] mindset [clears throat] was still the
[24:20] same, you know, chase a buck.
[24:22] You know, um it wasn't anything
[24:24] different, you know, but just trying to
[24:25] be a little bit more smarter and
[24:27] strategic. Uh that was just it. So
[24:29] you're still trying to become a
[24:30] millionaire. That's the that's the goal.
[24:32] >> you're still chasing it. You're still
[24:33] chasing a dream, you know, that illusion
[24:35] of it for sure. Yeah. How did you stay
[24:36] out of beefs? Like what were you
[24:38] catching these shootings? What was the
[24:39] what were the beefs over? People owed
[24:41] you money or Uh that or you know, um
[24:45] people just trying to you know, pretty
[24:47] much you know, not everybody
[24:49] um
[24:51] not everybody
[24:54] is going to respect certain things, if
[24:56] that makes sense. You know, not every
[24:57] Not everybody's going to respect certain
[24:59] things. And so, I think that when you um
[25:03] you don't respect certain things,
[25:04] there's a consequence for it. You get
[25:06] what I'm saying to you?
[25:06] >> No, I don't. Um huh? I don't I don't I
[25:09] don't understand what you're saying. No,
[25:10] I'm saying
[25:11] >> Respect over what?
[25:12] >> I'm saying like if if [gasps]
[25:15] If you and I If you and I have an
[25:16] agreement on something, right? And you
[25:19] don't respect what the agreement is,
[25:21] then
[25:22] we like we're going to have an issue.
[25:24] You know, you and I have I'm going to
[25:25] have an issue with that. You know what
[25:26] I'm saying? So, whatever agreement you
[25:27] and I come to,
[25:28] I'm asking you to respect that. And so,
[25:30] once you don't respect it, then okay, we
[25:32] All right, well, just make sure you can
[25:34] handle what comes with that. You know.
[25:35] Were these your workers? Were these guys
[25:37] you were working for you?
[25:39] >> You know, it might have been you know,
[25:40] if I give you something and I say,
[25:42] "Okay, this is what I want back for it."
[25:43] >> Right. And you don't And you don't come
[25:45] back with what you're supposed to come
[25:46] back with,
[25:47] then we you know So, money. As I said.
[25:50] >> Absolutely. Okay. What else could it be
[25:51] over? Right? Yeah, [laughter] for sure.
[25:53] That's all there is in the street.
[25:54] >> Yeah. Um So, the the case that you ended
[25:57] up catching was not over drugs. No. You
[26:00] actually never caught a drug case.
[26:02] >> Never caught a drug
[26:02] >> Except for your the the weed Yeah, the
[26:04] little [ __ ] weed or whatever.
[26:05] Um which you probably would have got
[26:07] probation for if you didn't weren't
[26:08] already on probation.
[26:10] >> Um
[26:11] So, yeah, I mean
[26:14] lead us up to that.
[26:16] You know, what Had you done these kind
[26:19] of these kind of licks
[26:21] No, I see what
[26:22] >> before? See what it was was like
[26:24] um
[26:26] I was
[26:29] I was I was the person
[26:31] that you could call, you know, cuz like
[26:33] I said, I was I was somebody who at that
[26:36] at that time like
[26:38] if you was my homie or whatever, you
[26:40] say, "Man, look, I caught Can I get a
[26:41] gun? Let me I need a pistol from you."
[26:42] Like you know, I I I could get it.
[26:44] You know, and so um
[26:46] that's how everything first started.
[26:49] You know, I might get a phone call,
[26:51] "Hey, man,
[26:52] you know, let me let me borrow a pistol
[26:54] real quick. All right, come get it, you
[26:56] know. And so, I don't know what's going
[26:57] on. I don't know what you I don't know
[26:58] what you got going on there first
[26:59] originally.
[27:00] And so, um
[27:03] as my co-defendants are committing
[27:06] the crimes,
[27:08] um
[27:09] you know,
[27:11] they're coming back.
[27:12] They're giving my firearm back, and
[27:14] they're also handing me some money.
[27:16] I'm not asking no questions cuz I'm you
[27:18] know, I'm I'm a street dude. I'm not
[27:19] going to ask you no question about where
[27:20] you got it from.
[27:21] I'm naive to what you're actually what
[27:23] you actually really got going on.
[27:25] Um so, it happened a few times.
[27:28] Um and then after it happened a few
[27:29] times,
[27:30] uh
[27:32] my brother calls me, and he's like,
[27:34] "Hey, man, uh turn on the news, the 6:00
[27:36] news."
[27:37] And so, I'm like, "Okay."
[27:39] I turn the 6:00 news.
[27:42] I see some dudes on the news. I know who
[27:44] they are,
[27:46] you know. And I'm like,
[27:48] the
[27:49] you know, like this is what's going on.
[27:51] So, uh my little my little buddy, I call
[27:53] him. Like, "Hey, where you at?" He like,
[27:55] "You know, I'm in the neighborhood." I'm
[27:55] like, "I'm I'mma pull up on you, man."
[27:58] I'mma pull up on him.
[28:00] And I'm like, "Yo, that's what you've
[28:01] been doing this whole time? Like, you're
[28:03] tripping. Like, you know what I'm
[28:05] saying? Like, What were they doing? Just
[28:06] committing robberies. I'm like, "Man,
[28:07] like, hey, give me my firearm, you know,
[28:09] cuz now you making it to the news like
[28:12] you going to jail." Like hitting like
[28:13] corner stores?
[28:14] >> No, they was uh they were like uh they
[28:16] were like bars. They had like pool tabs,
[28:18] right? And so, you know, the pool tabs
[28:20] they had tens and tens of thousands of
[28:21] dollars. And so, um it was like more
[28:24] like a smash and grab for them, in and
[28:26] out, you know, two two minutes tops
[28:28] maybe, I don't know, you know.
[28:29] >> Right. Um and so,
[28:32] that's ultimately what was going on, you
[28:35] know. It's gangster [ __ ] Yeah. That's
[28:37] cowboy [ __ ] I mean, that's what that's
[28:39] what they thought.
[28:41] They the fastest car. Yeah. Yeah.
[28:43] >> Okay, so you pull up on your homie, and
[28:44] you were like, "Give me my guns back. I
[28:46] don't I don't want to be affiliated with
[28:47] this.
[28:49] >> um,
[28:51] but me being, you know, who I am,
[28:54] um,
[28:57] I didn't let it stop right there, which
[28:58] I should have. You know what I'm saying?
[29:00] You I didn't let it stop right there.
[29:02] Um,
[29:05] I allowed it to go on, you know, even
[29:07] after that when I shouldn't have.
[29:09] And so now,
[29:11] um,
[29:12] you know, even when I didn't know, now I
[29:14] know so that makes me a co-conspirator.
[29:17] Yeah. You know what I'm saying to you?
[29:18] But again, I'm so naive because I'm
[29:21] saying to myself, well, um,
[29:24] I'm not I'm not really harming anybody
[29:27] or doing nothing, right?
[29:29] But then but then I get to a place in a
[29:31] space where
[29:33] I'm like, oh, this is what y'all got
[29:35] going on?
[29:36] This is how much you're getting?
[29:38] You know what I'm saying to you? How
[29:39] much money could they get? I mean, it
[29:40] was like it might be 30, 40, you know,
[29:43] you know, something like that at the
[29:44] time.
[29:44] >> for the one pool? Yeah, absolutely. It
[29:46] was like a
[29:47] They call pool tabs.
[29:49] Um,
[29:51] and it's like it's like a
[29:54] it's like a gambling
[29:55] like it's like a gambling like a little
[29:57] card or ticket. Like you can go on there
[29:59] you could you could pull them off
[30:01] and you might have a thousand bucks on
[30:04] it a a $1,500 winner or something like
[30:06] that on it. And so people pay them. You
[30:08] got some of them that cost a dollar,
[30:10] some of them cost five dollars, you
[30:12] know, and so what happened but that's a
[30:14] that's a separate
[30:16] um, like entity from whatever the
[30:18] establishment is.
[30:19] >> Right. Right. Right.
[30:21] >> Um,
[30:21] well, the bar might sell liquor or
[30:23] something like that. This is something
[30:26] completely over here and it's just
[30:27] separate.
[30:27] >> Oh, it's almost like the keno machines
[30:30] that people go into. They have those in
[30:31] Oregon where you it's a bar but in the
[30:33] corner so who the vendor supplies the
[30:36] keno machine and you'd be over there
[30:37] just pressing buttons like you're in a
[30:39] casino. Okay.
[30:40] >> Okay, but they were just robbing the
[30:41] bars. Right. Yep. That's a gang thing.
[30:44] >> Yeah. Okay, right. And they could get
[30:47] >> in the bar. And And they carried that
[30:48] much cash? Yeah, some of them did for
[30:50] sure. Okay, so they're making real
[30:52] money. They were. And they're drawing
[30:54] down. They're They're They're not This
[30:56] is not like a smash and grab. They're
[30:58] armed robbery.
[30:59] >> Yeah, they were they were armed robbery
[31:00] for sure. They were definitely armed
[31:01] robbery for sure. Yeah.
[31:03] >> [snorts]
[31:03] >> Yeah, how many
[31:05] how many robberies like this did they
[31:06] commit, do you know?
[31:08] In total, um
[31:11] I want to say it was
[31:13] I know when my first co-defendant got
[31:14] arrested, he had uh 32 counts on him. I
[31:18] want to say that they said that he had
[31:19] committed maybe 30,
[31:22] um if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Um I know
[31:25] the indictment that I was indicted
[31:26] under,
[31:27] um there was
[31:29] uh 11 Mhm. um that I was uh charged
[31:32] with. And they're hitting these spots
[31:34] all over the St. Paul-Minneapolis area?
[31:36] >> St. Paul-Minneapolis area and other
[31:38] little suburban areas um that were that
[31:40] were in like Hennepin County or Ramsey
[31:42] County.
[31:43] >> Uh-huh. Yeah, they were considered
[31:44] suburb area. Um okay, so yours Why are
[31:48] you the one supplying the guns? They
[31:51] can't find their own guns? Uh that that
[31:53] they didn't have the access to them at
[31:55] that I mean, they could have probably,
[31:56] but you know, they knew I had I had
[31:58] them. You know, but again, like I said
[31:59] to you,
[32:00] um once, you know, I got wind of what
[32:04] was actually going on, like I said to
[32:05] you, and at me not stopping it, um then
[32:07] I found myself
[32:09] uh becoming more involved than I should
[32:11] have. Mhm. You get what I'm saying to
[32:13] you? Um and that's ultimately how I got
[32:17] jammed up in it because, like I said to
[32:19] you, I'm a conspir- I'm a co-conspirator
[32:20] now, you know. Well, what was your first
[32:23] of like supplying guns, what was your
[32:25] taste? What would they throw you?
[32:27] I mean, I I I
[32:28] I don't I would I just started off just
[32:30] getting like a couple thousand.
[32:31] >> Yeah. You know, I just started off just
[32:33] getting a couple thousand.
[32:34] >> Yeah. Um but then as I can say to you,
[32:36] as I as I got more involved in it like
[32:38] damn I cut my break was two ways, three
[32:41] ways.
[32:42] >> you get involved? I'm saying just for us
[32:44] like partaking. Oh, okay.
[32:46] >> just you know, partaking in everything
[32:47] like it was just was it became you know,
[32:51] okay, well I need I need I need my cut.
[32:53] >> Yeah.
[32:54] >> You know, yeah. So if I could say if it
[32:55] was two people I I three people whatever
[32:57] I break me down.
[32:59] That's wild. So you were taking part in
[33:00] these robberies.
[33:01] >> Yeah.
[33:02] Mhm.
[33:02] >> Yeah. That's Was it exciting? I mean the
[33:05] money was good. You know, so so of
[33:08] course at that particular time it was
[33:09] exciting. Did [snorts] Were there
[33:11] cameras now? Or there's a lot starting
[33:12] to be more security cameras. Did What
[33:14] What was your guys'
[33:15] >> there definitely was then. Yeah.
[33:17] >> You know, there definitely was then
[33:18] though, but every It was always you
[33:20] know, it was it was always they were
[33:21] they always they always had masks and
[33:23] stuff on.
[33:23] >> Yeah. So you guys ran in with masks and
[33:25] and nobody's putting up any kind of No,
[33:28] nobody's putting up It's not like the
[33:29] South where the bartender might have a
[33:30] gun underneath the joint.
[33:32] >> putting up no resistance.
[33:33] >> Yeah.
[33:34] >> I they weren't doing that at the time
[33:35] now. Okay, so take us through one of
[33:37] these Take us through one of these
[33:38] licks, right? Like how do you How long
[33:41] do you spend casing it out? How do you
[33:43] know when there's going to be
[33:45] money in there? I mean you don't really
[33:47] know that.
[33:49] You [snorts] know, you don't really know
[33:50] that. Um
[33:52] and you know, it was really more or less
[33:55] about at that time finding ones that
[33:59] were like
[34:00] like on back streets. You know. You find
[34:04] someone on a back street, it's not no
[34:05] pedestrians, nobody walking around or
[34:08] nothing like that.
[34:09] Um and you want to kind of you know, you
[34:12] kind of just get a feel of
[34:14] the area. Mhm.
[34:15] >> You get what I'm saying? Do you have
[34:16] that make sense? You get a feel of the
[34:17] area. Um and you're going to know if
[34:21] it's crowded or if it's not crowded. You
[34:23] know, that's just how they originally um
[34:26] figured out figured it out, you know.
[34:28] And so once they knew that it wasn't
[34:29] something that was crowded it was easy
[34:31] to just go in there and it was usually
[34:34] you would want to wait kind of like
[34:36] later kind of like towards close. Mhm.
[34:38] You know, or whatever so it would be
[34:39] less people as possible. And the
[34:41] bartenders would be the one holding the
[34:44] No. the pull tabs?
[34:45] >> No, it would be the the people who ran
[34:47] it. Oh, I see. It was always separate. I
[34:49] see. So people are actually in there
[34:50] running it Mhm.
[34:52] along with the machines. People who were
[34:54] taking bets. Mhm. It's almost like
[34:56] sports betting essentially. Yeah, that's
[34:58] what it is. Kind of.
[34:59] >> not like Keno or it's not like the
[35:01] lottery.
[35:02] It's it's it's kind of like the lottery
[35:04] because like I said you you don't just
[35:06] have a ticket where you're scratching
[35:07] something off. You get like a little
[35:09] ticket and you're you're peeling
[35:10] something off. Okay. You know what I'm
[35:12] saying to you? And if you peel it off
[35:13] and you have a winner, then the person
[35:15] that's running it uh cashes you out.
[35:17] I've never heard of this. Yeah. I've
[35:19] never heard of a state doing this. This
[35:21] might be unique to Minnesota. I mean,
[35:23] maybe they do it in some other states,
[35:25] but I don't know. This is really That's
[35:27] weird. It's almost like some mafia
[35:30] gambling.
[35:30] >> the the the But it's the state doing it.
[35:32] The thing of it is is is that
[35:34] the the statute that we were actually
[35:36] indicted on there is a racketeering
[35:37] statute. Uh Right.
[35:39] >> Hobbs Act is a it was a racketeering
[35:41] statute. Yeah, so yeah, we're going to
[35:43] get into that. Like explain how robbing
[35:46] these local bars and and gambling joints
[35:49] became federal. This is really
[35:51] this is something. So uh
[35:55] you took place in about you're indicted
[35:57] under 11 robberies is what they say that
[35:59] you partook Mhm. Over what period of
[36:02] time?
[36:03] Um
[36:05] a 2-year period, 2002 to 2004.
[36:09] A 2-year period is how long they say the
[36:11] conspiracy lasted. Huh. Yeah. Wow. So
[36:14] they were getting You guys were getting
[36:15] away with it. Yeah, for years. Were you
[36:18] still selling drugs or did you just make
[36:19] this your main thing? No, of course.
[36:21] Okay. That's what the money was for.
[36:24] You know what I'm saying to you? Like it
[36:24] was to get more. You know what I'm
[36:26] saying to you? Like that wasn't the the
[36:28] focal point of the goal I for myself. I
[36:30] don't know what their focal point or
[36:31] what their goal was, but for myself it
[36:33] was
[36:34] you know, uh
[36:35] to get money to get more drugs.
[36:37] >> Yeah, to get a bigger a bigger re-up.
[36:39] >> package for sure.
[36:39] >> Uh-huh. And you were selling coke? Yeah.
[36:42] Okay. Did you grow your business thanks
[36:44] to this new income? I mean, yeah, but
[36:46] you know, when you
[36:48] the one thing that um
[36:52] that I didn't respect was I didn't
[36:53] respect the money. I didn't value the
[36:54] money. I didn't respect it the way that
[36:56] I should have. You know and so what
[36:57] happens is if you make 30, 40, 50,000,
[37:00] you going to blow it because you're not
[37:01] respecting it. You know what I'm saying?
[37:03] And then if you're doing something
[37:04] stupid like this, you know, and it and
[37:06] it's happening where you're getting 20,
[37:08] 30,000 in 2 minutes,
[37:11] you know, you think you can do it again.
[37:13] Mhm. And then you think you can do it
[37:14] again. And then you think you can do it
[37:15] again and get away with it. You know,
[37:17] and so you don't never
[37:19] you don't never consider you tell
[37:20] yourself you're going to get caught for
[37:21] it. So,
[37:23] I didn't respect the money at all. You
[37:24] know, so even if I made, you know, 50,
[37:27] 60,000 whatever, I'm blowing I'm blowing
[37:30] 40 of it, you know, or 50 of it in
[37:33] probably 3 weeks.
[37:34] >> Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so
[37:35] now you got to go back to the table and
[37:36] do it all over again.
[37:38] Do another robbery.
[37:39] >> Yeah, you got to do you got to do
[37:39] whatever you got to do. Damn. Yeah.
[37:42] That this is some real that's some
[37:44] gangster [ __ ] man. I've heard of a lot
[37:46] of I was down with a lot of guys who got
[37:48] slammed with a lot of time for this kind
[37:50] of like ongoing
[37:51] Cuz you guys aren't doing this like once
[37:53] or twice. Cuz you're down on your habit,
[37:56] you're a dope fiend, and you rob a bar,
[37:57] you This is a business. I mean
[38:00] >> This is a racket. This is an organized
[38:01] This is organized crime.
[38:03] >> [laughter]
[38:03] >> That's what That's what That's what they
[38:04] considered it to be, but you know, we
[38:06] was just some dudes in the neighborhood
[38:08] who was just trying to chase a buck.
[38:10] Organized yourselves, committed a
[38:12] multiple ongoing crimes. And I'm not
[38:14] even like and I hate the justice system,
[38:15] but I'm just
[38:17] from an outsider civilian perspective
[38:18] now, this is organized crime.
[38:20] >> That's how somebody could look at it for
[38:21] sure. Tell us about how they got on to
[38:24] you and how you were eventually
[38:26] arrested.
[38:28] Well,
[38:29] they weren't on to anybody.
[38:31] What happened was one of my
[38:33] co-defendants
[38:36] had got caught.
[38:37] They got caught red-handed where he had
[38:39] went committed one robbery
[38:41] and then I guess the robbery he
[38:43] committed, I guess it wasn't enough
[38:45] money for him. So, he drove from that
[38:48] location and went to another location
[38:50] not too far from where the crime was
[38:52] committed at
[38:54] and after he committed that robbery, he
[38:56] got arrested. He got caught red-handed.
[38:59] And so,
[39:01] when he got brought in, that's when he
[39:03] start cooperating and he start telling
[39:06] on the guys that he originally
[39:09] committed the robberies but he didn't
[39:10] say anything about me.
[39:11] It took a while for my name to come up.
[39:16] And my name came up once they got to
[39:19] asking
[39:21] where the weapons came from.
[39:23] Then that's where my name comes up.
[39:25] And so, once my name comes up
[39:29] then that's when the kind of I think the
[39:30] case
[39:32] cuz I was the last one to come in. I
[39:34] think that's when the case kind of got a
[39:35] little bit
[39:37] bigger, I guess. I don't know if you
[39:38] want to say. Well, it's still on a state
[39:40] level at this point, right?
[39:41] >> No, it was federal then. The first when
[39:43] the first guy got arrested it was on the
[39:45] state level.
[39:46] Like I said, he was for the two
[39:47] robberies.
[39:49] And he's down there cooperating against
[39:51] the other co-defendants.
[39:53] Telling them about these other
[39:54] robberies, too?
[39:55] >> Right. Right.
[39:57] Because he got caught with a firearm,
[40:00] they indicted him for being a felon in
[40:01] possession of a firearm. That's how they
[40:03] brought the case to federal court
[40:04] originally.
[40:05] And as he's cooperating and then now
[40:07] they're bringing the other co-defendants
[40:10] in, now of course it's a federal case.
[40:14] Do you think if he had just kept his
[40:15] mouth shut,
[40:17] just said, "Yeah, look, I did the two
[40:19] robberies and I got a gun."
[40:23] You know, he would have done some time.
[40:25] You know, he probably would have done 10
[40:26] years or something.
[40:27] >> Mhm.
[40:28] Do you think they would have been able
[40:29] to make a bigger case?
[40:31] No, I I mean, if
[40:35] if
[40:36] if if he doesn't say anything
[40:38] and nobody else commits any crimes, we
[40:41] may have not got caught for it. You
[40:43] know, you know what I'm saying? Because
[40:44] there was there was no
[40:46] they didn't know who they didn't know
[40:47] any they didn't know who committed any
[40:49] like they didn't know who they didn't
[40:50] know who committed any of these crimes
[40:51] until he came in and until he start
[40:53] cooperating. And so that guy, what was
[40:55] his eventual sentence? He ended up um
[40:58] when he first got indicted, he was he
[41:00] had a 32-count indictment.
[41:02] Um
[41:03] >> So 32 counts, how if they only have you
[41:05] on two robberies red-handed, how do they
[41:08] indict you on 32 times? Did he Did he
[41:10] confess?
[41:11] >> confessed. Oh, he's stupid.
[41:13] Confessed because once he told on the
[41:16] other co-defendants,
[41:18] now like I said, they put the whole
[41:19] entire case together and realized that
[41:21] he was responsible for partaking in
[41:24] uh x amount of robberies. And when he
[41:26] first came in, um in the paper,
[41:28] um they said he was facing 382 years.
[41:32] But because of his cooperation, he only
[41:34] got 6 and 1/2 years.
[41:38] But like I I I wonder if he hadn't told
[41:42] on himself. Mhm.
[41:43] This is what I'm trying to get to. Like
[41:45] do you think
[41:46] if he had just kept his mouth shut, just
[41:49] two robberies and the gun,
[41:51] the sentence probably would have been
[41:52] less.
[41:54] It probably would have been about 6 and
[41:55] 1/2 years, right?
[41:56] >> Yeah. If it would have stayed on the
[41:57] state level, probably.
[41:58] >> Right. Or maybe a little a little more.
[41:59] Yeah, probably.
[42:00] >> But like you go and tell and then
[42:03] telling yourself, it's actually worse.
[42:05] Sometimes the guy who tattletales,
[42:07] >> Yeah. it's actually worse for him in the
[42:10] sentencing Yeah. than it would be if he
[42:12] just took whatever [ __ ] he got
[42:14] caught for. Mhm.
[42:16] God damn, that's
[42:18] crazy. It just takes one guy. He just
[42:20] folded. Yeah.
[42:22] How close was he to you? Like how how
[42:24] well did you know these guys and from
[42:25] where?
[42:26] >> know, I grew up with him and he actually
[42:28] he was the one who was the closest to
[42:29] me.
[42:31] Um
[42:31] >> [clears throat]
[42:32] >> because we hung out every day.
[42:35] You know, um we hung out every day and
[42:37] it's crazy because it's like um
[42:41] I met him in the county jail when I was
[42:43] going to do
[42:45] uh my second state my second state uh
[42:47] bid. I met him in the county jail.
[42:49] And
[42:51] it's crazy because I should have knew
[42:53] then that he was no good.
[42:55] Um because he had a
[42:57] um he had a like a $300 bond and he
[42:59] couldn't bond out.
[43:01] You know, like I was he was it was I
[43:03] want to say like it was like either $300
[43:05] or $600 bond and wouldn't nobody come
[43:07] get it. All right. You get what I'm
[43:09] saying? You know, so 600 bucks. You get
[43:11] what I'm saying? You know, so I should
[43:12] have knew then that he was no good. If
[43:13] you can't get out of jail on a $300 or
[43:15] $600 bond, you're no good. You know, you
[43:17] get what I'm saying? You that means that
[43:18] you don't you don't you don't you don't
[43:20] done some crazy you don't get done some
[43:21] crazy stuff. You get what I'm saying?
[43:23] You know, so but
[43:24] um
[43:25] but I had took a liking into him, you
[43:27] know, and it and it's crazy because it's
[43:29] like um
[43:31] after taking a liking into him, I
[43:33] actually bonded him out while in there.
[43:35] While we were together, I'm like, you
[43:37] know, cuz I'm like he you know, he he's
[43:38] young. I'm like, man, you know what?
[43:40] Man, I'mma get you out.
[43:42] You know, so I ended up bonding him out.
[43:43] You know. So you really knew these guys
[43:45] well? This whole circle? That grew up
[43:47] with them in my neighborhood. I grew up
[43:48] with them. Yeah, for sure.
[43:50] Okay, so how long after this guy got
[43:54] arrested and started talking did
[43:57] everybody start to go down? And then
[43:59] when did you when were you finally
[44:00] brought in? Do you remember the date of
[44:02] the year? Yeah, I got I got I got I got
[44:05] brought in June 4th, 2024.
[44:08] Um and I want to say maybe about two or
[44:11] three months or maybe three or four
[44:13] months prior to me um bringing being
[44:16] taken into custody, uh that's when my
[44:18] other co-defendants were taken into
[44:20] custody.
[44:21] Um I'm not sure how long it was after he
[44:23] got arrested
[44:24] >> Mhm. that the other ones came in. I just
[44:26] know that um
[44:30] it was probably two or three months
[44:31] after um they rounded up the other
[44:35] co-defendants. Like I said, I was the
[44:36] last one to come in. And were you
[44:37] arrested by the FBI? Um I was arrested
[44:40] by
[44:41] um
[44:42] a sergeant
[44:43] um
[44:44] a sergeant um by the St. Paul He was a
[44:47] sergeant in the St. Paul Police
[44:48] Department. Um he knew He knew He knew
[44:51] um he knew who I was and he knew cuz he
[44:54] was working I think with the ATF at the
[44:56] time, too.
[44:57] Um and so
[44:59] um
[45:00] once the warrant came out he knew like
[45:03] where I the neighborhood I was in, you
[45:05] know, where I I frequently hung out at
[45:07] or whatever. And so he came looking for
[45:08] me. But it was a federal warrant.
[45:10] >> a federal warrant, yeah, for sure.
[45:11] Actually, yeah, it was a
[45:13] a warrant for a complaint. I wasn't
[45:14] indicted yet, but it was a complaint.
[45:16] All right.
[45:17] >> Yeah. Got it. So
[45:19] and you're still you've got this huge
[45:21] rap sheet now.
[45:22] Uh what happens to everybody else?
[45:26] Like is is the court proceedings cuz
[45:28] you're now now you're in this like RICO
[45:30] Yeah. uh conspiracy. Mhm. It's the Hobbs
[45:32] Act is what exactly? Explain for people.
[45:35] Uh the Hobbs Act is a it's a
[45:36] racketeering racketeering statute um
[45:40] >> [clears throat]
[45:40] >> which deals with um robbery and
[45:42] extortion.
[45:44] Um and it was an act that was enacted in
[45:46] 1946.
[45:47] Um and the act was originally the
[45:49] original goal of the Hobbs Act was to
[45:52] combat uh robbery and extortion, you
[45:54] know, basically from
[45:56] um like the mobsters. You know, if you
[45:57] remember back in the days, you know,
[45:59] they were high they were hijacking uh
[46:01] you know, trucks trucks and stuff like
[46:03] that. That's what the Hobbs Act was
[46:04] originally for because now you're
[46:06] affecting interstate commerce and the
[46:07] flow of goods interstate commerce. You
[46:09] have a truck that's in route from New
[46:11] Jersey to New York and you guys stop it
[46:13] and you guys hijack it, well, you affect
[46:15] interstate commerce because you just
[46:16] took the whole truck and that's what the
[46:18] whole goal of the Hobbs Act was
[46:20] originally for. And Senator Hobbs, like
[46:22] if you were to dig deeper into the
[46:24] history of the Hobbs Act, Senator Hobbs
[46:26] specifically stated that the act was not
[46:29] enacted uh to combat mom-and-pop
[46:32] robberies.
[46:33] It said it You know what I'm You know
[46:34] what I'm saying to you?
[46:35] But a lot of people don't They don't
[46:37] know that because the federal government
[46:39] their loophole is well, it affected
[46:41] interstate commerce. And like I said to
[46:43] you, if you go in Say if you go in there
[46:44] rob a 7-Eleven right now,
[46:46] um because the Snicker
[46:49] that's that that that they have in there
[46:50] that they're selling is not manufactured
[46:53] in Austin, Texas,
[46:54] therefore, you affect the interstate
[46:56] commerce because you just depleted the
[46:58] funds
[46:59] of 7-Eleven that allows them to be able
[47:02] to order Snickers or whatever other
[47:04] supplies that they have in 7-Eleven.
[47:06] That's how they ultimately say that they
[47:08] have jurisdiction.
[47:09] >> That's crazy. So, how did they How did
[47:11] they say or try to say that what you
[47:13] guys were doing, sticking up, uh
[47:16] gambling in in pool parlors, Yeah. how
[47:20] was that affecting interstate commerce?
[47:22] Because the liquor
[47:24] um that that that the establishment sold
[47:27] was not liquor that was manufactured in
[47:29] the state of Minnesota.
[47:31] Uh that's how they say you affect
[47:32] interstate commerce because again, like
[47:33] I said to you, if you go in there you
[47:35] rob an establishment of 30,000 or
[47:38] 40,000, now they're saying you depleted
[47:40] the funds
[47:42] um of being able to order liquor um that
[47:45] was manufactured in um
[47:48] uh Detroit, Michigan. You know what I'm
[47:50] saying to you?
[47:51] Um and that's how they justify it. But
[47:54] under that
[47:55] under those guidelines, you could make
[47:58] it almost anything. We live in a
[47:59] connected world. Almost nothing we
[48:01] consume is manufactured in our state.
[48:04] >> Exactly. Everything comes from China via
[48:07] you know the port of Los Angeles where
[48:08] it comes in. I mean, we live in a global
[48:11] economy. So, anything could be affecting
[48:13] interstate commerce.
[48:14] >> Yeah.
[48:15] Yeah, that's a real problem.
[48:16] >> Yeah. I mean, and it is you know, but
[48:18] when you have
[48:20] uh you know, these judges as well as
[48:22] these US attorneys who have um these
[48:24] agendas, um it's kind of it's going to
[48:26] always be hard to combat that. You get
[48:28] what I'm saying to you? And it's crazy
[48:30] because it's like you see people in
[48:32] state prison for robbing um like I said,
[48:35] your 7-Eleven or for robbing anything.
[48:38] And it's and it'll just be a state case.
[48:40] Yeah. You know, they pick and they
[48:41] choose the cases that they want to bind
[48:44] over to federal court. Um and so, um
[48:48] even when we got indicted, like I said,
[48:49] it was six of us total.
[48:51] Um we were all African-Americans. And
[48:53] so, you know, you had um the NAACP, uh
[48:56] the St. Paul branch, uh went down to
[48:59] the US Attorney's office trying to get
[49:01] answers because they're asking them
[49:02] like, why are you guys indicting these
[49:04] young, you know, African-Americans um
[49:06] for committing these crimes when they're
[49:08] just they're local robberies?
[49:10] You get what I'm saying to you? I think
[49:12] the scale of it
[49:14] >> and and that was and that was
[49:15] that's what
[49:18] was one of the biggest things that I
[49:19] couldn't really wrap my head around and
[49:21] that's why I ultimately blew trial. Was
[49:24] because I'm like, you know, cuz I had my
[49:26] lawyers coming in telling me like, hey,
[49:28] this is not no federal case. So, once
[49:30] you tell me that, you know, and I got a
[49:32] I got a little bit of money that I can
[49:34] use with a lawyer to fight with, oh, I'm
[49:35] gone. Let's go to you know, you get what
[49:37] I'm saying to you? Now, I don't know how
[49:39] to come in and and and accept
[49:40] responsibility. I don't know how to say,
[49:42] okay, well, you know what? Yeah, I
[49:43] partook in you know, this conspiracy. Um
[49:47] you know, it and whatever, you know, I'm
[49:50] subjected to, go ahead and receive the
[49:52] time. I can it's hard for me to do that.
[49:54] When you see when when I'm having my my
[49:56] lawyer tell me hey this is not no
[49:57] federal case. You know then then you
[49:59] have other people and then even just a
[50:00] little research that I was doing, I'm
[50:02] saying to myself like nah this ain't no
[50:03] federal case. And that's what I fought
[50:05] against.
[50:06] >> So your lawyers were telling you this
[50:07] was a case you could beat. No, they were
[50:09] telling me it wasn't a federal case. And
[50:11] so when you tell me that and I'm like
[50:13] and there's like well
[50:14] uh you know
[50:16] this didn't really affect interstate
[50:17] commerce.
[50:19] You know, this is what I'm thinking
[50:21] we're going to be able to go in here and
[50:22] attack and argue. So what were they
[50:24] trying to do? They were trying to get it
[50:25] dismissed? They originally were trying
[50:27] to get the uh the court to dismiss it uh
[50:30] based on uh
[50:31] uh lack of uh subject matter
[50:33] jurisdiction. Um but of course it got
[50:36] denied.
[50:37] You know.
[50:38] >> All right. Okay, so
[50:40] after these motions keep getting denied,
[50:43] you're sitting in jail? Yes. Um
[50:47] do they then do the attorneys then say
[50:48] okay well
[50:50] it looks like you're either going to
[50:51] have to take a plea. What are they
[50:52] offering you as a plea deal? Well the
[50:54] first plea that they offered me which
[50:56] they offered everybody and everybody the
[50:59] crazy thing about it is everybody
[51:01] involved in the case either plead to 22
[51:03] years or 21 years. Even
[51:06] the original co-defendant who
[51:07] cooperated. Everybody plead to that
[51:09] either 22 or 21 years. But after their
[51:11] cooperation of course they got you know
[51:13] their sentences reduced. So everybody
[51:15] cooperated? Everybody cooperated except
[51:17] me. Against who? Me.
[51:20] >> [snorts]
[51:20] >> So did you They obviously tried to get
[51:22] you to cooperate. So it would have been
[51:24] just like everybody telling on each
[51:25] other. Right. Mhm. Uh I see. I see. And
[51:29] so um what did they ultimately get you
[51:31] Well the first the first
[51:33] plea agree uh deal that they came to me
[51:35] with was 22 years. Of course I rejected
[51:37] it.
[51:38] Um but then they had the the second one
[51:40] which was like four days before trial
[51:41] they offered me 15 years.
[51:43] And I was going to take the 15 years but
[51:46] when my lawyer told me that the 15 years
[51:49] came with cooperation, I'm like, "I'm
[51:50] not doing that."
[51:52] You know, I I I just I've never been a
[51:53] person who um
[51:56] I'm just not built like that, you know.
[51:57] I don't I'm I'm I've never been a person
[51:59] who, if you catch me doing something,
[52:01] then turn around and say, "Okay, well,
[52:03] you know what? Hey, uh
[52:04] I bought drugs from Johnny."
[52:06] Or I bought drugs from so-and-so, or I
[52:09] did this with so-and-so. I've just never
[52:11] been built like that, you know. If I If
[52:12] you catch me, I'mma lay down, I'mma do
[52:14] my time. You get what I'm saying to you?
[52:16] Um but you have a lot of people who
[52:17] don't um they don't live by that, you
[52:20] know. And it's crazy because
[52:22] um
[52:23] people don't understand that um
[52:25] snitching has become has become a part
[52:27] of the game now. You know, it's
[52:29] unfortunate, but it but but that's the
[52:30] reality that we live in. Um the way that
[52:33] this new generation has shaped
[52:36] everything,
[52:38] you know, people don't live by those
[52:40] same codes and principles and morals
[52:42] that they did when I was coming up. You
[52:44] get what I'm saying to you? Um that's
[52:45] why you see the things that you see in
[52:47] the news right now. You know, you see
[52:49] people
[52:50] um
[52:51] you know, even big people, big-time
[52:53] people. You Let's just look at the
[52:54] situation with Pooh Shiesty and Gucci
[52:56] Mane right now. What's going on with
[52:57] that situation? You know, look at the
[52:58] situation where people try to say,
[53:01] you know, uh Big Meech third party
[53:03] cooperated. You get what I'm saying to
[53:04] you? Um snitching has become a part of
[53:07] the game. Not saying that I that I
[53:08] believe I I don't know any of these
[53:10] people, but not to say that this is, you
[53:11] know, that that that that they did those
[53:12] things, but um just saying like
[53:14] snitching has become a part of the game.
[53:16] It's not something I believe in. I still
[53:17] believe in, you know,
[53:20] you you you do something, you get
[53:21] caught, man, lay down, do your time.
[53:23] Okay, but at this point, and I respect
[53:25] that, definitely, at this point though,
[53:28] 4 days before trial, have all of your
[53:31] co-Ds already snitched on you? Yeah.
[53:34] All of them had already cooperated. And
[53:36] And what is that being just proffering?
[53:37] Just telling everything? Proffering,
[53:39] telling everything. Some stuff was true,
[53:40] some stuff, you know, some stuff were
[53:42] lies as well, too, just to make sure
[53:44] that they
[53:45] um got the time cut, you know, that they
[53:48] were were were hoping to get. And they
[53:50] all end up taking Had they taken the
[53:52] 15-year plea deals at this point?
[53:54] >> took 22 and 21 years. That was their
[53:57] plea? That was their plea agreement.
[53:58] >> Even for cooperating?
[53:59] >> Yep, that was their plea agreement. Aw,
[54:00] that does suck. So, you actually had an
[54:02] opportunity to get less time for
[54:04] cooperating against people that had
[54:06] already cooperated against you.
[54:09] Wow.
[54:10] I respect that. I mean, that's That's a
[54:12] principled move because
[54:15] um 9 out of 10 people would be like,
[54:17] "Oh, well, why not?"
[54:18] >> Right.
[54:19] The government's literally just
[54:21] telling you, "We don't want to go to
[54:23] trial, man.
[54:23] >> Yeah. Game's over. Yeah. All these dudes
[54:26] told on you, so just
[54:28] confess. What they're trying to get you
[54:29] to do is confess because they know
[54:31] everything. There's no,
[54:33] you know, it's not like anybody else is
[54:35] taking it to the box. Yeah.
[54:37] Um and I had people who
[54:39] uh who were frustrated with me because I
[54:41] wouldn't take the deal. Mhm. Um but,
[54:43] like I said, you know, at the end of the
[54:44] day, it wasn't about me pleasing them.
[54:46] It just was It was about what I stood
[54:48] on, you know, and just not believing in
[54:50] that. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and plus you
[54:53] got to go to federal prison being
[54:56] labeled a rat.
[54:57] >> Having that paperwork, right?
[54:58] >> for sure. Yeah. And this is you got 11
[55:00] counts of robbery? Uh no, all together
[55:02] that it was 21 It was a I was found
[55:04] guilty on a 21-count indictment. Okay.
[55:07] And they charged which was
[55:09] um conspiracy for count one, um aiding
[55:12] and abetting
[55:13] um
[55:15] counts two through
[55:17] uh 10, and then counts 11 through 19, um
[55:21] aiding and abetting a 924C uh convicts
[55:23] or 924C charge, and then two counts of
[55:27] of felon in possession of a firearm.
[55:29] Okay. [snorts]
[55:30] And did your lawyer at this point advise
[55:33] you to take the deal?
[55:34] Of course. My lawyer, she tried to One
[55:36] of my lawyers tried to convince me to
[55:37] take the deal for sure.
[55:38] >> Mhm. Yeah. 15 years?
[55:40] >> Yeah, she she was she was she was
[55:41] actually
[55:42] uh she and I she and I got to it, you
[55:44] know, she and I had had you know, had a
[55:45] uh
[55:47] we had a real argument a a real bad
[55:48] argument.
[55:49] >> Mhm. Um because I wouldn't take it.
[55:52] What was the nature of the cooperating?
[55:56] Like what did they want you to do? Just
[55:57] sit down and make a statement?
[55:59] >> Well, see the crazy thing about it is
[56:00] that
[56:01] um
[56:03] during the course of me being
[56:06] um
[56:06] in the county jail
[56:08] they had sent um 55 photos to every
[56:12] single co-defendant. Right? What are
[56:14] They were numbered, right? And
[56:17] there was a separate paper
[56:20] you know, and they wanted you to write
[56:22] your name down
[56:24] to every number
[56:26] of the people that you knew. And they
[56:28] were dudes that were in my neighborhood
[56:29] that I grew up with. And it's like, you
[56:31] know, here it is, we have our own case.
[56:34] These dudes don't even know they're
[56:35] they're on the these people's radar
[56:36] because there's 55 photos of people that
[56:39] I absolutely know.
[56:41] You get what I'm saying to you? But I'm
[56:42] not going to be writing my name on no
[56:44] paper identifying nobody and coming in
[56:48] and profiting and giving you any
[56:49] information about dudes in my
[56:50] neighborhood. Oh, so they want more than
[56:52] just you guys talk telling yourselves to
[56:55] >> they Whatever they Whatever Whatever you
[56:56] can come in and offer up, they wanted
[56:58] it. A thousand percent they wanted it.
[57:00] So, that's like, you know,
[57:01] um
[57:02] a lot of people
[57:04] I did share that with. Like even like
[57:05] one of my closest buddies, it was a
[57:07] picture of him. You know, and so after I
[57:10] had uh got convicted, I sent them the
[57:12] the picture like, "Hey, look. This is
[57:14] what like And the And the And the funny
[57:16] thing about it is, when I sent him that
[57:18] picture, he changed his life.
[57:21] Like when I tell you my And he When I
[57:22] tell you he's doing so good right now,
[57:25] married, kids, he changed his life
[57:27] because it was a wake-up call for him.
[57:30] >> Right. Like you're on their radar. Fall
[57:31] back.
[57:31] >> Absolutely. Yeah, get out the way. Wow.
[57:33] >> Yeah, get out the way for sure. Good for
[57:35] you, man.
[57:35] >> Yeah. I bet he appreciates that.
[57:37] >> Oh, for sure.
[57:38] >> Greatly.
[57:38] >> Yeah, for sure. Um, I would have advised
[57:41] you as a lawyer to
[57:45] tell on yourself and your buddies. This
[57:48] is just as a lawyer. I'm just thinking
[57:49] strategy, right? I'm trying to get you
[57:51] home.
[57:52] I would have said, "Yeah, lie. Say you
[57:54] don't know [ __ ] about anything else."
[57:55] And just
[57:57] I I talked We had a big marijuana
[58:00] uh
[58:03] group that we filmed with a couple years
[58:05] ago and they were these rednecks out of
[58:07] South Florida and they'd imported like,
[58:09] dude,
[58:10] like hundreds of tons of Colombian weed
[58:12] back like in the '70s and '80s and [ __ ]
[58:14] like that.
[58:15] >> Yeah. And when they got the indictment,
[58:17] they all made a an agreement, they all
[58:20] told on each other. Uh-huh. Like, but
[58:22] knowingly. They all agreed, like, "We're
[58:24] going to cooperate against each other."
[58:26] And you know, they all came home. Yeah.
[58:28] That's
[58:29] That's the the part of the game that's
[58:31] like
[58:33] the strategy that big-time criminals
[58:35] use. Uh-huh. Um
[58:38] but
[58:39] respect. Respect for just standing on
[58:41] your business, though. I understand both
[58:43] sides.
[58:44] So, how long did trial last?
[58:47] Um
[58:47] >> And did they And did your co-Ds take the
[58:50] stand?
[58:50] >> Yeah, they took the stand.
[58:52] Uh My trial
[58:55] it lasted uh
[58:58] I would say
[59:01] maybe a little over a but maybe a week.
[59:02] I don't need to deliberate it for 4
[59:03] days.
[59:05] They deliber- They deliberated for 4
[59:06] days.
[59:07] Um so, I would say maybe
[59:10] a week and a half. That's how long it
[59:12] lasted, maybe.
[59:13] Was that hard watching your friends take
[59:17] a stand in front of a federal jury and
[59:19] just tell on you? It must have been. It
[59:22] was, you know. Uh there definitely was
[59:24] some anger there, you know, especially
[59:25] when it's like, you know, these are
[59:27] dudes that you looked out for and
[59:29] protected, you know, cuz they were soft.
[59:32] You know what I'm saying to you? And so,
[59:34] um
[59:35] you know, it was dudes that I stood up
[59:38] for on on many occasions. You know,
[59:41] dudes that I bailed out of jail on many
[59:42] occasions. You know, you you go to jail,
[59:45] you know, most people when they go to
[59:46] jail, the first people they call is they
[59:47] going to call their lady. Hey, come get
[59:48] me. They wouldn't do that. They was
[59:49] calling me. Uh and I would go get them,
[59:51] you know, cuz if I if if I if if you and
[59:53] I were cool and we dealt with each
[59:54] other, and you call my phone and you
[59:56] need to get you know, get bailed out of
[59:57] jail, I'm coming to get you. Um so, I I
[59:59] was definitely There was anger and I was
[01:00:01] hurt. You know,
[01:00:03] um but
[01:00:04] the one thing that I realized, you know,
[01:00:06] today is that um I put myself in that
[01:00:09] situation. I put myself in that
[01:00:10] situation to allow anybody to stand
[01:00:12] before myself and and 12 jurors and and
[01:00:15] and two lawyers and a prosecutor and a
[01:00:18] judge to be able to point the finger and
[01:00:20] tell me about anything, you know, so I
[01:00:21] don't blame it's my fault. Cuz I put
[01:00:23] myself in that situation. What was the
[01:00:25] mistake? The initial mistake? Was it
[01:00:28] giving giving the dude those guns? No,
[01:00:30] the initial mistake was just
[01:00:32] um me not realizing and understanding
[01:00:35] that there's another way. You know, it's
[01:00:37] a different way.
[01:00:39] Um
[01:00:40] I think that when you uh you grow up,
[01:00:43] you know, in a neighborhood where uh you
[01:00:45] see all these different things that are
[01:00:47] happening and transpiring when it comes
[01:00:48] to um
[01:00:51] just dealing with the streets, just when
[01:00:52] you know, selling drugs and things of
[01:00:54] that nature, like I said you it's easy
[01:00:56] to do. It's not complicated or hard to
[01:00:57] do. It's It's It's It's just It's easy
[01:00:59] as me and you having a conversation. You
[01:01:00] can easily just get involved. You can
[01:01:02] either be good at or bad at it, but um
[01:01:04] for the most part, you also see
[01:01:07] um those same people who you grew up
[01:01:08] with in your community doing something
[01:01:10] different, and to this day are
[01:01:11] successful for it. So, um for me, the
[01:01:13] mistake was just um not realizing that
[01:01:16] there was a different way.
[01:01:18] Um that's the That was the mistake.
[01:01:20] Uh the jury deliberated for 4 days.
[01:01:22] >> Yeah, they deliberated. I went in
[01:01:23] Monday,
[01:01:25] uh, came back Friday. What was your
[01:01:27] defense?
[01:01:28] What was the the nature of your defense?
[01:01:30] What were your lawyers trying to do?
[01:01:31] >> The nature of the defense was that I was
[01:01:34] never caught. Nobody identified me.
[01:01:37] You know, no no no eyewitness ever
[01:01:39] identified me.
[01:01:41] I'd never been caught with a firearm.
[01:01:43] Um,
[01:01:44] and [clears throat] so
[01:01:46] it was basically my word against theirs.
[01:01:48] You know, and I think that, um, even
[01:01:49] just remembering trial, um,
[01:01:53] I can remember, uh, a couple of the
[01:01:55] jurors shaking their heads, like when my
[01:01:57] co-defendants were cooperating and
[01:01:58] telling, because there were, like I
[01:02:00] said, there was truth to it some of the
[01:02:02] things that they said, for sure. But
[01:02:03] there was also a bunch of lies. And so
[01:02:06] I think that there were parts and
[01:02:08] moments where, uh, jurors kind of like
[01:02:10] knew that. So um,
[01:02:13] for them to sit there and deliberate for
[01:02:14] 4 days,
[01:02:16] um, I kind of felt like if I would have
[01:02:18] testified that I may have beat them.
[01:02:20] You know? So it's pretty rare that, uh,
[01:02:23] defendant in a criminal trial takes the
[01:02:24] stand, but was that a thought? Did you
[01:02:27] bring that up to your attorneys? No, I
[01:02:29] mean, I didn't want to take a stand
[01:02:30] because I knew my my past and my priors
[01:02:32] would come up, though. But that was a
[01:02:34] thought after I got convicted. You know,
[01:02:36] after sitting back and thinking about
[01:02:37] them, saying to myself like, man, I
[01:02:39] should have probably gone on the stand
[01:02:40] because
[01:02:41] in a situation like that,
[01:02:43] if everybody is saying that you're that
[01:02:45] you're this is what you're doing,
[01:02:47] and there's no eyewitnesses to be able
[01:02:50] to come in and corroborate that that
[01:02:52] you're actually doing this, it's just
[01:02:54] your word against theirs,
[01:02:56] I think that any rational person, um,
[01:03:00] it's going to be hard for them to
[01:03:02] believe, well, if this person's not
[01:03:03] going to stand up and defend himself,
[01:03:06] then it must be true.
[01:03:08] That is really interesting. And I hope
[01:03:10] some lawyers or some criminals that are
[01:03:12] facing trial hear that. Um, how many
[01:03:16] people are
[01:03:18] cooperating against you? Um, it was
[01:03:20] >> identifying you on the stand?
[01:03:23] Four. Mhm. Uh, four co-defendants
[01:03:25] cooperated. Yeah, I mean
[01:03:28] Yeah, that's one of those things where
[01:03:30] it's like
[01:03:32] it's with the feds, you know, people
[01:03:34] have been convicted for less. Oh, for
[01:03:36] sure. And uh, did you understand how the
[01:03:40] the win rate of federal prosecutors? No,
[01:03:43] you know
[01:03:44] >> conviction rate? Well, I mean 98%
[01:03:47] it's not 98% conviction rate is really
[01:03:50] based on
[01:03:51] plea agreements.
[01:03:53] Um, that's what it is. When people
[01:03:54] people think that
[01:03:56] you know, when you're talking about 98%
[01:03:58] you're talking about people blowing
[01:04:00] trial. People don't usually blow trial
[01:04:02] in the feds. They usually cop out and
[01:04:03] they either cooperate or they just come
[01:04:05] in and you just you know, take the plea
[01:04:07] agreement that's offered to them without
[01:04:08] cooperation. You get what I'm saying to
[01:04:09] you?
[01:04:10] Um
[01:04:12] They have a high conviction rate because
[01:04:15] um
[01:04:17] people are cooperating with the federal
[01:04:19] government. Right.
[01:04:20] I don't know anyone
[01:04:22] except maybe two people
[01:04:25] and I'm and I've been around just you
[01:04:26] know, being in the federal system, I've
[01:04:28] been around a lot of people that had
[01:04:30] life.
[01:04:31] I probably can only
[01:04:33] um
[01:04:34] name two or three that actually still in
[01:04:36] there. You know, the one thing that I
[01:04:38] realized about the feds
[01:04:40] is that they make so many different
[01:04:42] mistakes and our and they violate your
[01:04:45] rights in so many different ways
[01:04:48] and I'm not saying this to
[01:04:50] encourage people to commit crime in the
[01:04:53] in the feds and go to trial. I'm not
[01:04:54] saying that. But
[01:04:56] for the most part um
[01:04:59] everyone that I did time with that blew
[01:05:01] trial
[01:05:02] are actually home today.
[01:05:04] >> Wow. Because somewhere or another their
[01:05:07] rights were violated.
[01:05:08] >> Right. So,
[01:05:09] that is so fascinating and what does
[01:05:11] that tell [snorts] us? What does that
[01:05:13] tell us about the Feds? It's like just
[01:05:16] get this guy a life sentence and then
[01:05:19] with whatever the how much and however
[01:05:22] many rule breaking we want to do. If he
[01:05:25] figured if if if he figures it out he'll
[01:05:27] then then then then we'll cut him loose.
[01:05:28] So so who is culpable? Is it the judge?
[01:05:32] Is it the prosecutor? Like who are the
[01:05:35] ones in the system making those
[01:05:37] mistakes?
[01:05:39] Honestly
[01:05:39] >> at the sentencing and in the trial.
[01:05:41] Well, you know, first and foremost I
[01:05:43] think that um
[01:05:46] everyone's playing ball
[01:05:48] in my opinion, right? Um from your
[01:05:50] lawyer to the US attorney as well as to
[01:05:53] the judge. Um
[01:05:55] we don't know what happens behind closed
[01:05:57] doors. You know? All we know is that
[01:06:00] this you know that we have you know this
[01:06:02] situation um and that um
[01:06:06] you know, we're standing before a court,
[01:06:08] you know, um either defending or or or
[01:06:12] um accepting responsibility for our
[01:06:14] actions. You know what I'm saying to
[01:06:15] you? Um
[01:06:18] I can't really speak on
[01:06:20] anybody else's situation other than
[01:06:22] myself. But again, like I said to you um
[01:06:25] for the most part the people that I did
[01:06:28] time with
[01:06:29] um were on drug were drug conspiracy
[01:06:32] cases
[01:06:33] um and like I said to you the laws
[01:06:35] changed
[01:06:36] and
[01:06:38] you know, lo and behold they served 20
[01:06:40] years and then all of a sudden, you
[01:06:42] know, you discover realize hey, well
[01:06:44] this person should have never um you
[01:06:46] know, been sentenced to this you know,
[01:06:48] to to this amount of time because his
[01:06:50] sentences are legal. But my question is
[01:06:52] why is this who's responsible for
[01:06:55] overlooking that at the actual
[01:06:56] sentencing?
[01:06:57] >> everybody, [clears throat] you know,
[01:06:58] because like I said to you like you you
[01:06:59] when you come into a situation from your
[01:07:02] lawyer to the US attorney to the judge,
[01:07:04] everybody has a a a responsibility to
[01:07:07] protect your constitutional rights. I
[01:07:09] don't care whether I'm guilty or I'm
[01:07:10] innocent. You know what I'm saying?
[01:07:11] Especially the judge, because this is
[01:07:13] what the judge takes the oath to. You
[01:07:14] take a oath to uphold the United States
[01:07:16] Constitution. You know what I'm saying
[01:07:18] to you? You're sit You're You're there
[01:07:19] as a referee. Okay?
[01:07:22] This side is going to present an
[01:07:23] argument, this side is going to present
[01:07:25] an argument. You know what I'm saying to
[01:07:26] you? And then you have to be the
[01:07:28] deciding factor as to whether or not
[01:07:31] A is right or B is right. You know what
[01:07:33] I'm saying to you? But the most
[01:07:34] important thing is for you to be able to
[01:07:38] protect
[01:07:39] the rights of anyone walking before your
[01:07:42] court, you know? And so I believe that
[01:07:45] um
[01:07:45] everybody's responsible because my
[01:07:47] lawyer has a responsibility to protect
[01:07:49] my constitutional rights under the under
[01:07:50] the Sixth Amendment. That's what the
[01:07:51] Sixth Amendment says, that you have a
[01:07:52] right to effective assistance of
[01:07:54] counsel. Absolutely.
[01:07:55] >> what I'm saying to you? And so um
[01:07:58] just like my situation, right?
[01:08:01] Um the day I got sentenced, my sentence
[01:08:04] was illegal.
[01:08:05] My lawyer should have knew that.
[01:08:07] Exactly. You know what I'm saying? You
[01:08:08] My lawyer should have knew that.
[01:08:10] Exactly.
[01:08:10] >> The judge should have knew that she
[01:08:12] couldn't impose the sentence that she
[01:08:13] imposed. She should have knew that. The
[01:08:15] US Attorney's Office should have knew
[01:08:17] that they should have never charged me
[01:08:19] with the 3559 statute, the federal three
[01:08:21] strikes law, because my priors didn't
[01:08:23] qualify me for it. Everybody's supposed
[01:08:25] to know this. You know what I'm saying
[01:08:27] to you? But yet
[01:08:29] because like I said to you again,
[01:08:30] there's an agenda here,
[01:08:32] um
[01:08:33] it it always gets overlooked. You know,
[01:08:35] and it's crazy because um
[01:08:38] the one of the US Attorneys that
[01:08:39] prosecuted me
[01:08:41] um after
[01:08:43] I got sentenced
[01:08:45] um had a photo of me framed in his
[01:08:47] office.
[01:08:49] Um and I learned that because there was
[01:08:51] another lawyer who I retained who had to
[01:08:54] go to his office to talk to him, and he
[01:08:56] seen it in there.
[01:08:58] You know, and he also used that that as
[01:09:00] one of his
[01:09:01] um
[01:09:03] points when he indicted another group
[01:09:05] that came after us which were the Latin
[01:09:08] Kings. Wow. And he and he went to him
[01:09:10] and he told me said, "Listen, do you
[01:09:11] guys know who Carlos Macado is?"
[01:09:14] Yeah, I did that to him.
[01:09:16] You get what I'm saying to you? And so,
[01:09:18] again, when you have people who
[01:09:22] have these agendas Yeah. um
[01:09:26] we're all in trouble. So, it was like he
[01:09:28] had like a hunting trophy on his wall.
[01:09:31] >> for sure. It was a trophy for sure. Um
[01:09:33] okay, so it wasn't like
[01:09:36] during your sentence
[01:09:38] the a Supreme Court made a decision on a
[01:09:40] case and then you guys it changed the
[01:09:43] circumstances of your sentencing. Your
[01:09:45] sentencing was illegal from the rip.
[01:09:47] Absolutely.
[01:09:47] >> Okay. Yeah. So, that makes sense, right?
[01:09:50] It is everybody's fault. Ultimately,
[01:09:51] it's your lawyer. I mean, you should
[01:09:53] know how dirty the feds play. For sure.
[01:09:56] >> You should be It's like a bureaucratic
[01:09:59] like you just forgot. Right.
[01:10:01] >> overlook this [ __ ]
[01:10:02] >> Right. Like go to chat GPT. Is this a
[01:10:05] legal sentence?
[01:10:06] >> Right. Yeah. It is not. It wasn't no
[01:10:07] chat GPT back then.
[01:10:08] >> obviously. But like, you know, spend a
[01:10:11] couple of days and get your assistants
[01:10:14] to go thumbing through the books. You
[01:10:16] know what I mean? It's all written, so
[01:10:18] it's all
[01:10:20] Well, let's get to it. Let's let's save
[01:10:22] that for the end about how you
[01:10:24] discovered. Were you aware at the time
[01:10:26] that it was an illegal sentence? I
[01:10:27] suppose not, right? No, I didn't Yeah, I
[01:10:29] didn't know um that my sentence was
[01:10:32] illegal until I would say
[01:10:35] 2009.
[01:10:37] Um and when I say illegal meaning that
[01:10:40] um the court didn't have jurisdiction to
[01:10:43] impose life without the possibility of
[01:10:46] parole because the government never
[01:10:47] filed an A-51 notice. You know what I'm
[01:10:49] saying to you? I didn't know
[01:10:52] that my priors didn't qualify. I didn't
[01:10:55] learn that until the lawyer uh who's now
[01:10:58] um a court of appeals judge until he was
[01:11:00] the one that reached out and and
[01:11:02] actually
[01:11:03] told me, "Hey, listen, your sentence is
[01:11:05] illegal and this is the reason why."
[01:11:06] >> Wow. So, they reached out to you in
[01:11:07] prison? Right, yeah. Amazing.
[01:11:09] >> Yeah. Okay, so you're you're 4 days go
[01:11:12] by, the jury finds you guilty. Is Is
[01:11:14] federal jury is that you got to have a
[01:11:16] unanimous guilty verdict? Okay.
[01:11:18] >> I believe so, yeah. Uh and you're
[01:11:20] sentenced to what? Um April 7th, uh 2006
[01:11:25] um I received uh 20 life sentences.
[01:11:28] Um 10 to run concurrent and 10 to run
[01:11:30] consecutive.
[01:11:32] Um under the 3559 statute.
[01:11:35] Okay. And they used your Now, this is
[01:11:37] >> used my prior convictions that I had
[01:11:40] um
[01:11:42] um that said that
[01:11:44] subjected me to because under the uh
[01:11:46] federal three strikes law you have to
[01:11:48] have um two or more uh serious drug
[01:11:51] offenses or crime of violence in order
[01:11:53] to be subjected to a uh the three
[01:11:55] strikes law.
[01:11:56] And
[01:11:58] didn't you have two crimes of violence?
[01:12:00] The shooting the two shootings?
[01:12:02] >> Yeah, I did. As well as the the the
[01:12:04] marijuana uh they consider that
[01:12:05] marijuana charge to be a serious drug
[01:12:07] offense as well, too. So, then how were
[01:12:10] those not How did it end up that those
[01:12:12] didn't qualify? Well, um under the
[01:12:15] federal three strikes law
[01:12:17] um as well as the um
[01:12:18] armed criminal criminal uh criminal
[01:12:20] statute uh 9
[01:12:22] uh 22G um
[01:12:25] you have to have
[01:12:27] A
[01:12:28] a crime of violence prior conviction
[01:12:30] that's punishable by 10 years or more
[01:12:32] or B a serious drug offense that's
[01:12:35] punishable by 10 years or more.
[01:12:37] Well, I had prior convictions for
[01:12:40] um the two assault cases as well as
[01:12:44] um the drug conviction the the small
[01:12:46] drug conviction. But, neither prior was
[01:12:51] punishable by 10 years or more,
[01:12:53] they were only punishable by seven. So,
[01:12:55] therefore, they were not considered to
[01:12:57] be qualifying prior convictions. So,
[01:13:00] therefore, I should have never been
[01:13:02] subjected to
[01:13:04] you know, um
[01:13:05] to be sentenced under the federal
[01:13:06] three-strikes law because I never had
[01:13:08] the prior conviction that were
[01:13:09] qualifying prior convictions. That three
[01:13:11] [snorts] years. Right.
[01:13:12] >> That that very, very close
[01:13:15] thin line, and that's what your original
[01:13:17] attorneys overlooked.
[01:13:19] >> Absolutely.
[01:13:20] >> Wow. Okay. Now,
[01:13:22] to give them a little grace, that is a
[01:13:24] very
[01:13:25] that is a very specific loophole or
[01:13:28] detail that they overlooked. Um but it
[01:13:31] cost you your life. So,
[01:13:33] uh I assume your family's devastated. Uh
[01:13:36] where do they shoot you to? Where do you
[01:13:38] go? Where do you do time?
[01:13:39] >> Um my first I landed my first one was a
[01:13:42] uh misery mountain.
[01:13:43] Uh you know, they call it misery
[01:13:44] mountain. They call it uh USP Hazelton,
[01:13:46] United States Penitentiary Hazelton.
[01:13:47] They call it misery mountain.
[01:13:48] >> Mhm.
[01:13:49] Um that's where uh Whitey Bulger got
[01:13:51] killed there
[01:13:52] at that prison, yeah. Mhm.
[01:13:54] Okay. [snorts] And do you go in there
[01:13:57] thinking your life's over or
[01:14:00] what kind of time were you doing?
[01:14:03] Uh my mindset um going in was
[01:14:06] um
[01:14:07] to keep fighting. You know, I There was
[01:14:09] no way that I was going to
[01:14:11] walk in there and accept uh what was
[01:14:13] given to me just because
[01:14:15] uh nobody on my case got sentenced over
[01:14:17] 10 years, you know? All of my
[01:14:19] co-defendants
[01:14:20] um one of my co-defendants received a
[01:14:23] year and a half.
[01:14:25] The second least amount of time was six
[01:14:26] and a half years.
[01:14:27] >> Mhm.
[01:14:28] Um the third least amount of time was 51
[01:14:32] months.
[01:14:33] The fourth least amount of time was
[01:14:36] um
[01:14:38] was nine years.
[01:14:41] And then the fifth least amount of time
[01:14:43] was 10 years seven months. And then the
[01:14:46] the sixth least amount of time was
[01:14:48] uh 10 years, 9 months.
[01:14:49] >> Right. You know what I'm saying to you?
[01:14:50] And then, I was the only one that
[01:14:51] received
[01:14:53] 10 ultimately 10 consecutive life
[01:14:54] sentences.
[01:14:55] >> You know what I'm
[01:14:56] >> think you could have, even if they
[01:14:57] hadn't discovered the illegal sentencing
[01:15:00] because of
[01:15:02] uh your your prior convictions?
[01:15:05] Uh you know, having been found guilty of
[01:15:07] a crime of violence punishable by over
[01:15:08] 10 years. Do you think just you could
[01:15:10] have won in a sentencing appeal based
[01:15:13] off of the discrepancy of the time?
[01:15:15] Well, of course I argued the the
[01:15:17] sentencing disparity. You know, and even
[01:15:19] like in the pre-sentence report,
[01:15:21] um
[01:15:21] we were all just considered to be
[01:15:23] average participants. You know what I'm
[01:15:25] saying to you? But, um my my my sentence
[01:15:29] was nothing more than a trial penalty.
[01:15:32] You know what I'm saying to you? Um
[01:15:33] people don't people don't people don't
[01:15:34] people don't pay attention or realize
[01:15:36] this though, but if you ever
[01:15:39] um
[01:15:40] if you've ever been to a USP,
[01:15:42] right?
[01:15:44] 95%
[01:15:45] of the people that are sitting in the
[01:15:47] United States United States
[01:15:49] Penitentiaries in the federal system
[01:15:51] have 30 years or better. You don't see
[01:15:53] nobody going home for a long time. You
[01:15:56] know what I'm saying to you? And
[01:15:58] that's what the federal
[01:16:00] court is doing. Or that's what they were
[01:16:02] doing then. I don't know about now, but
[01:16:04] then they're handing out If you go to
[01:16:06] trial, they're going to punish you for
[01:16:07] that. You know what I'm saying to you?
[01:16:09] Because you have to Because this is this
[01:16:10] is this is this is what I would say to
[01:16:11] you, okay?
[01:16:13] >> [snorts]
[01:16:13] >> Um if you and I are indicted for the
[01:16:16] exact same thing, you know, you're
[01:16:18] you're less you're you're no more
[01:16:19] culpable than I'm culpable, right?
[01:16:21] >> Yeah. Um
[01:16:23] and they give you 10 years, right?
[01:16:26] You're not a danger to society at all,
[01:16:28] right?
[01:16:30] What makes me a danger to society? You
[01:16:32] know what I'm saying to you? Um
[01:16:35] what makes me a danger to this What
[01:16:37] makes me a danger is because I decided
[01:16:39] to stand on something and believe in
[01:16:41] something and and have morals and
[01:16:43] principles and not cooperate and they
[01:16:45] punish me for it. You know what I'm
[01:16:46] saying? You That's all it is. But if
[01:16:49] you're telling me that I'm no more
[01:16:50] culpable than you are, then why I don't
[01:16:52] get 10 years? Right. You get what I'm
[01:16:53] saying to you? Um forget about prior
[01:16:55] convictions because
[01:16:57] you know, you you had a co-defendant who
[01:16:59] had the same amount of priors you had
[01:17:00] some that even had more priors than I
[01:17:01] had as well, too. But because they
[01:17:03] cooperated
[01:17:04] >> Right. You get what I'm saying to you?
[01:17:05] Now all of a sudden they're not
[01:17:06] considered to be a danger to society,
[01:17:09] but I'm considered be a danger because I
[01:17:11] decided to put 12 in a box and I lost.
[01:17:13] >> Right. You get what I'm saying?
[01:17:14] >> So therefore it's punitive. It's It's
[01:17:16] cruel and unusual. Absolutely. And I
[01:17:18] argue that as well, too. You know.
[01:17:19] >> Now Okay, so tell us Yeah, did you file
[01:17:22] appeals? I assume you filed multiple
[01:17:24] appeals. I filed multiple multiple
[01:17:27] appeals.
[01:17:28] Um I tried everything. Like one Like my
[01:17:31] my One of the things that I did was I
[01:17:34] always told myself I'm going to always
[01:17:35] keep something in front of that judge's
[01:17:37] face. Always.
[01:17:38] You know, whether it was the the
[01:17:40] district court or whether it was the
[01:17:41] court of appeals because
[01:17:43] um
[01:17:44] I just couldn't accept
[01:17:46] um spending the rest of my life in
[01:17:47] prison because I didn't feel like I
[01:17:49] deserved it. The crime just didn't fit
[01:17:51] the time.
[01:17:51] >> Mhm.
[01:17:52] You know, it just didn't. You know, and
[01:17:54] so um
[01:17:56] >> [snorts]
[01:17:56] >> you know, when I walked in the prison
[01:17:57] you know, my main goal and focus was to
[01:18:00] to change everything about myself. You
[01:18:03] get what [snorts] I'm saying to you? I
[01:18:03] wasn't walking in conforming to no norm
[01:18:05] of prison. You get what I'm saying to
[01:18:07] you? My mind uh you know, my mind was
[01:18:10] always outside of prison. You know, that
[01:18:12] was the most important thing for me
[01:18:13] because I had kids that I had to get
[01:18:15] back to. I had a family that I had to
[01:18:16] get back to and I just
[01:18:18] um
[01:18:20] I just felt like I was way
[01:18:23] um
[01:18:25] I was much smarter
[01:18:27] than that to be sitting here for the
[01:18:28] rest of my life for some stupid [ __ ]
[01:18:30] Yeah. You know. Um and so that was
[01:18:32] always my goal. My goal was to always
[01:18:34] was to always get out and just to
[01:18:36] continue to fight.
[01:18:37] You know, that was what it was for me.
[01:18:39] So, you must have spent a lot of law
[01:18:40] library time. Absolutely.
[01:18:42] >> Yeah. Did you hire like a jailhouse
[01:18:44] lawyer? No. See, I had a when I went in,
[01:18:47] um I had a paid attorney.
[01:18:49] Um and he was the one who handled my
[01:18:52] initial appeal to appeal my sentence.
[01:18:54] Um and ultimately that was denied.
[01:18:57] Um and then
[01:18:59] I was in the we were in the process of
[01:19:01] hiring a third lawyer to um actually
[01:19:04] um file my 2255, my habeas corpus
[01:19:07] motion. Um but at that time that's when
[01:19:08] my mother had passed away.
[01:19:10] Um cuz my mother passed away when I was
[01:19:12] in there. And so, um when she passed
[01:19:15] away, um I remember calling my aunt, my
[01:19:18] aunt Gwenda, and
[01:19:20] um
[01:19:21] you know,
[01:19:22] I'm telling her, "Look, I need a
[01:19:23] lawyer." And so, I remember her having a
[01:19:25] conversation and she's telling me, she
[01:19:26] said, "Listen, um you know, we can do
[01:19:29] it, you know, but she's like, I listen
[01:19:31] to you call this phone
[01:19:33] um every week, you know, talking about
[01:19:36] your case." And she says, "Nobody knows
[01:19:38] that case better than you do."
[01:19:40] She said, "And you're no dummy, you
[01:19:41] know, get your butt in that law library,
[01:19:44] you know, and learn."
[01:19:45] And so, I remembered that. And so, when
[01:19:47] she said that, um that's when I stayed
[01:19:50] in there, you know, and I happened to um
[01:19:53] come across a guy who was actually a
[01:19:55] lawyer, but he was a civil attorney.
[01:19:57] Um and so, I would just, you know, sit
[01:20:00] next to him and I always had my sponge
[01:20:02] out. I would always pick him for
[01:20:03] information. I learned how to research
[01:20:05] cases, case law, read case law, you
[01:20:07] know, and things of that nature. And so,
[01:20:09] um you know, when I did that,
[01:20:12] um I was the I was able to understand
[01:20:15] everything that happened and transpired,
[01:20:17] you know. And so, um and just working
[01:20:19] with him, I ended up filing my first
[01:20:23] 2255 habeas corpus motion pro se uh with
[01:20:26] his help. And he was the one who
[01:20:28] actually discovered that the government
[01:20:31] never filed an A-51 notice, which they
[01:20:33] had to by law,
[01:20:35] in in order to give the court
[01:20:36] jurisdiction to impose
[01:20:38] the
[01:20:39] the three strikes law against me. That's
[01:20:41] what that A-51 is?
[01:20:43] >> A-51 is is a notice. Like cuz you have
[01:20:47] people that are in there with with drug
[01:20:48] convictions, too, that was that did time
[01:20:50] with me as well, too, that
[01:20:52] had life sentences based on the A-51
[01:20:55] because you have two other prior drug
[01:20:58] convictions before this third one you
[01:21:00] caught, and the court can sentence you
[01:21:02] to life without the possibility of
[01:21:03] parole based on that, but
[01:21:06] the government has to file it, though.
[01:21:09] Like you
[01:21:09] >> Like in like pre-trial sentencing?
[01:21:11] >> Pre-trial pre-trial sentencing and
[01:21:12] things of that nature, they have to file
[01:21:14] even because they even before you even
[01:21:16] plead guilty, they have to file this.
[01:21:17] They have to file this before you even
[01:21:19] plead guilty because it has to give you
[01:21:21] an opportunity because if if the if if
[01:21:23] if it's the government's goal and
[01:21:25] position
[01:21:26] um for you to be subjected to life
[01:21:28] without the possibility of parole at
[01:21:29] sentencing, they have to file the
[01:21:31] notice. And so, what they do is in order
[01:21:34] to get people to cooperate, that's also
[01:21:36] a tactic they do as well, too, is they
[01:21:38] will file the notice with your
[01:21:39] indictment, "Hey,
[01:21:41] we're going to give you life without the
[01:21:42] possibility of parole, you know, and
[01:21:44] then when you look on there, they have
[01:21:45] to also list those prior convictions,
[01:21:48] and it gives you an opportunity to be
[01:21:50] able to challenge those because if you
[01:21:51] challenge those and the court uh rules
[01:21:55] in your favor as it relates to them not
[01:21:57] being qualifying priors, then now you
[01:21:59] know, "Okay, well, I'm not subjected to
[01:22:00] life without the possibility of parole."
[01:22:02] And then some people can say, "Okay,
[01:22:03] well, I'm going to go to trial." Or I'm
[01:22:05] still going to take a plea agreement.
[01:22:06] And so, your US attorney just forgot to
[01:22:09] file that with the judge?
[01:22:10] >> for sure.
[01:22:12] Mhm. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, they I mean,
[01:22:15] bozos, morons. Yeah. That's why they
[01:22:17] work [snorts] for the government.
[01:22:18] >> Yeah. If they had game, they would have
[01:22:20] a thriving private practice. But these
[01:22:23] these are the worst lawyers. And so,
[01:22:27] that's really fascinating how so many
[01:22:29] people are out that have had life
[01:22:30] sentences.
[01:22:31] >> Yeah.
[01:22:32] Um okay, so you discovered that.
[01:22:35] What did you do with that information?
[01:22:37] Well, I filed my um
[01:22:39] my first 2255 motion, my habeas corpus
[01:22:41] motion. I filed that first. And for
[01:22:44] people who don't know, what is a habeas
[01:22:45] corpus motion? It's a
[01:22:47] um
[01:22:47] it's a remedy
[01:22:49] um
[01:22:50] that you can actually file um and that's
[01:22:53] the actually the first time that they
[01:22:54] said legally is where you can challenge
[01:22:56] and argue
[01:22:58] um
[01:22:59] uh that your lawyer was ineffective. Um
[01:23:02] a habeas corpus motion is
[01:23:05] you know, it's like cuz fir- first of
[01:23:07] all, your direct appeal is what happens
[01:23:09] first after sentencing. Your direct
[01:23:11] appeal is what happens first and it's
[01:23:13] and this is you being able to say,
[01:23:15] "Okay, well,
[01:23:16] the sentencing the sentencing judge or
[01:23:18] the judge committed x amount of errors.
[01:23:21] Whether it was pre- pre-trial motions,
[01:23:23] whether it was sentencing violations,
[01:23:25] whatever. That's what the direct appeal
[01:23:26] is for. You know what I'm saying to you?
[01:23:28] But when you come in you um
[01:23:31] when you come in habeas corpus realm,
[01:23:34] now you're talking about the conviction.
[01:23:37] You Now you're going to actually a
[01:23:38] challenge the conviction of your your
[01:23:40] circumstances, your situation.
[01:23:42] Um and so, there's a
[01:23:44] a multitude of of claims and issues that
[01:23:47] you can present before the court at that
[01:23:49] particular point. Okay. And is at this
[01:23:51] time, is this before 2009 when you got
[01:23:53] that letter from the lawyer
[01:23:55] uh telling you that that I discovered
[01:23:58] this? Yeah, that was it. That was in
[01:23:59] 2009.
[01:24:01] Um I didn't get the letter or I actually
[01:24:02] didn't get the phone call from the
[01:24:03] lawyer until um the beginning of the
[01:24:06] pandemic, 2000 and what was it? 20?
[01:24:09] Yeah. Okay. Okay, so
[01:24:12] what was the result of the habeas corpus
[01:24:14] that you filed?
[01:24:15] >> um
[01:24:16] the the the the crazy thing about it,
[01:24:18] right, is that um
[01:24:19] >> [clears throat]
[01:24:20] >> when I filed my uh 2255 motion, my
[01:24:23] habeas corpus motion, um the government
[01:24:26] responded, right?
[01:24:28] The government responded, and when the
[01:24:30] government responded, the judge denied
[01:24:32] the motion 2 days later
[01:24:34] after the government responded.
[01:24:36] But the crazy thing about it is
[01:24:40] the way that the the way that that you
[01:24:42] argue when you get to that level where
[01:24:44] it's I file,
[01:24:46] the government files a response, and I
[01:24:48] have a legal right to file a reply
[01:24:51] before the judge can rule.
[01:24:53] So, when she denied the motion 2 days
[01:24:56] after the government had filed, before I
[01:24:57] even got a chance to reply, I knew then
[01:25:00] it just even validated more how much she
[01:25:03] just did not like me.
[01:25:05] Because here it was, you jumped the gun,
[01:25:08] right?
[01:25:09] So, Talking about the judge.
[01:25:10] >> Yes, so I have to file a motion
[01:25:13] to the court, to the judge, to say, "You
[01:25:15] How can you deny my motion when I didn't
[01:25:17] reply yet? When legally, under rule
[01:25:21] I believe it was rule 11, I have the
[01:25:22] right to reply."
[01:25:24] And so, she said, "Oh, yeah, okay, well,
[01:25:26] yeah, you go ahead and file your reply."
[01:25:27] But now I already know you're going to
[01:25:28] deny it.
[01:25:29] >> Mhm. So, I filed a reply, she tries to
[01:25:32] sit on it and wait some months,
[01:25:35] and then all of a sudden she just comes
[01:25:36] back with her original order denying my
[01:25:38] 2255 motion.
[01:25:40] Well, like I said to you, I'm just
[01:25:42] someone who
[01:25:44] um
[01:25:46] is new to this whole,
[01:25:49] you know, legal stuff. You know, so I
[01:25:51] didn't really understand everything that
[01:25:52] was happening cuz she denied all of my
[01:25:53] claims.
[01:25:55] But at the same time, there were some
[01:25:56] claims that were unanswered claims as
[01:25:58] well, too, and legally you're supposed
[01:26:00] to address and answer every single
[01:26:02] claim.
[01:26:03] One of the claims that she didn't
[01:26:05] address, nor did the the the government
[01:26:07] respond to, or you know, respond to,
[01:26:10] was the fact that they never filed a 851
[01:26:12] notice. So, after that, for years, that
[01:26:16] what I argued. Even after I got denied
[01:26:18] in 2009,
[01:26:20] I always said to the court, "Hey,
[01:26:22] you have to adjudicate this claim. You
[01:26:25] have to answer this claim."
[01:26:26] >> Right. But it was just denial after
[01:26:28] denial after denial after denial.
[01:26:30] >> And do you keep running it up to a
[01:26:31] higher court
[01:26:33] What happens after you get denied for
[01:26:35] one claim?
[01:26:36] >> um
[01:26:38] the
[01:26:39] the tricky thing about the uh
[01:26:42] the feds is that um
[01:26:46] you have a right
[01:26:47] for the for the court of appeals to hear
[01:26:49] your motion,
[01:26:51] right?
[01:26:52] Um on direct appeal.
[01:26:54] But you don't have a right for them to
[01:26:57] hear your appeals um
[01:27:01] after that.
[01:27:02] You have to file You have to get granted
[01:27:05] a certificate of appealability. And the
[01:27:07] crazy thing about it is that you have to
[01:27:09] first file a certificate of
[01:27:10] appealability to the same district court
[01:27:13] judge that just denied you.
[01:27:14] >> Mhm. Right?
[01:27:16] And then if they deny that, then that's
[01:27:18] where you can go to the court of appeals
[01:27:19] and say, "Hey,
[01:27:20] I need a certificate of appealability,"
[01:27:22] which is basically just giving you
[01:27:23] permission
[01:27:24] to be able to even appeal the the the
[01:27:27] district court's denial of your 2255.
[01:27:29] You know what I'm saying to you? But
[01:27:31] when I tell you it's so hard
[01:27:33] if you ask anybody who's been in the
[01:27:36] federal system and anybody that knows
[01:27:38] about the law when it comes to the
[01:27:39] federal system, it is extremely hard and
[01:27:42] difficult
[01:27:43] to get a certificate of appealability.
[01:27:46] And so,
[01:27:47] when I tell you that
[01:27:49] after
[01:27:51] losing uh 2255, it gets it gets tighter
[01:27:55] Mhm. and tighter and tighter.
[01:27:58] You get what I'm saying to you? In order
[01:28:00] for a court to hear your case. What did
[01:28:03] you need? Is that what you needed? You
[01:28:05] needed to get back before an appellate
[01:28:07] court? I honestly
[01:28:10] Because if the judge Excuse me. If if
[01:28:12] the prosecutor and the judge who
[01:28:14] originally gave you your sentence
[01:28:16] are against you, like what is the
[01:28:18] recourse? You have to go to the higher
[01:28:20] You have to go to their boss, right?
[01:28:21] >> to go cuz see like what like see the
[01:28:23] Supreme Court governs the Court of
[01:28:25] Appeals. The Court of Appeal governs the
[01:28:28] District Court. That's the pecking
[01:28:30] order. You know what I'm saying to you?
[01:28:31] And so even like a lot of times like
[01:28:33] people don't like I used to like like
[01:28:35] one of the things that I learned over
[01:28:36] the years and just dealing with the
[01:28:38] being in the law library is that a lot
[01:28:40] of times you had guys that would come in
[01:28:41] and file pro se motions and they're
[01:28:43] citing all Supreme Court cases to the
[01:28:46] District Court judge.
[01:28:48] When that's that's not the way to do it.
[01:28:49] You have to cite
[01:28:51] the Court of Appeals right case law
[01:28:53] because that's who governs you. You know
[01:28:55] what I'm saying to you? And so
[01:28:58] you're wondering why your motions get
[01:28:59] denied? Your motions get denied because
[01:29:01] you're citing cases that while okay you
[01:29:03] might think that that the District Court
[01:29:05] has to
[01:29:07] follow what the Supreme Court says. No,
[01:29:09] they have to follow what the Court of
[01:29:10] Appeals says. That's the
[01:29:11] >> go to the highest court right away.
[01:29:13] >> the pecking order. You know what I'm
[01:29:14] saying to you? Got you. Um and so that's
[01:29:16] just ultimately just how it is.
[01:29:17] >> So you got denied at the district level?
[01:29:19] Yeah. You got denied at the appellate
[01:29:21] level? Yeah.
[01:29:23] Wow. What year was that that you lost
[01:29:26] the appellate? Um I would say maybe 2011
[01:29:30] 2012, but I didn't stop though. I still
[01:29:32] I still tried, you know?
[01:29:34] >> Were you losing hope at any point?
[01:29:37] >> You can't. You know, it's hard. You
[01:29:39] know, of course there have been days
[01:29:40] where you you you know, you you
[01:29:42] question, you know, but you can't lose
[01:29:44] hope, you know, unless you're somebody
[01:29:46] who just wants to accept that as being
[01:29:48] the end for you then that's how you lose
[01:29:49] hope, but I just couldn't accept it. You
[01:29:52] must have seen guys going home off life
[01:29:54] sentences that gave you hope that like
[01:29:57] gave you drive to keep going, right?
[01:29:59] Not not in the beginning. Like I said,
[01:30:01] you know, you when you're sitting, you
[01:30:03] know, anybody that's
[01:30:05] that's in the in those USPs, man, you
[01:30:07] don't nobody really going home. Mhm. You
[01:30:09] know, I I I've been I've been in
[01:30:11] facilities where I've, you know,
[01:30:14] I've done 4 years, 5 years, and you
[01:30:16] don't see nobody going home, you know?
[01:30:19] Only time you might see somebody go home
[01:30:20] is if you're seeing somebody who
[01:30:22] um is on a violation, comes back on a
[01:30:24] violation, or something like that, you
[01:30:26] know? But for the most part,
[01:30:28] um
[01:30:29] those aren't going home, you know? So, I
[01:30:30] didn't really see nobody going home. It
[01:30:32] wasn't until
[01:30:33] um
[01:30:34] like the drug laws changed, the crack
[01:30:36] laws changed, you start seeing dudes,
[01:30:38] you know, a couple dudes going home.
[01:30:39] >> Mhm. Um and then when
[01:30:42] um President Obama was in office, he was
[01:30:44] commuting those sentences. I was seeing
[01:30:46] dudes, you know, that had life getting
[01:30:48] their sentences commuted, that had been
[01:30:49] down for a while, going home.
[01:30:51] >> Um you know, and then certain uh laws
[01:30:54] changing on the court of appeals level,
[01:30:55] as well as
[01:30:57] the Supreme Court level, you know, where
[01:30:58] dudes would start going home, but I was
[01:31:00] I wasn't in
[01:31:01] um those USPs. That's when I was, you
[01:31:03] know, in the lower-level security
[01:31:04] facilities.
[01:31:05] >> Right. Okay, so you 6 years later you
[01:31:07] did get classed down to the low.
[01:31:09] >> Yeah, absolutely. I I I I would have I I
[01:31:11] went from
[01:31:12] um USP
[01:31:14] to medium, uh to low. And then when I
[01:31:17] got released from custody, um I was a
[01:31:19] low custody. That's how I got released
[01:31:21] from Sandstone, Minnesota. So, you were
[01:31:22] just a model inmate. Yeah. It doesn't
[01:31:24] sound like you got in any trouble.
[01:31:25] >> No, I I I didn't have one incident
[01:31:27] report the whole time I was in there.
[01:31:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the way to do
[01:31:29] it.
[01:31:30] >> Yeah. Um so, you it's 2019, 2020
[01:31:34] when [snorts]
[01:31:35] your life changes. Right.
[01:31:37] >> Well, tell us what happened. Um
[01:31:40] at the time, like I said you, there was
[01:31:41] a case that came down from the Supreme
[01:31:43] Court um called United States versus
[01:31:45] Davis.
[01:31:47] Um and that case was shaped around 924C
[01:31:51] convictions, and how
[01:31:53] um if
[01:31:54] the predicate offense was not considered
[01:31:57] to be a crime of violence,
[01:31:59] the um
[01:32:01] the judge or yeah, the judge couldn't
[01:32:04] impose a sentence of consecutive
[01:32:06] sentence or a sentence
[01:32:07] um
[01:32:08] using the 924C statute, right? Which is
[01:32:11] ultimately
[01:32:12] um possessed of a firearm during the
[01:32:14] course of a crime of violence or in a
[01:32:16] furtherance of a drug trafficking
[01:32:17] offense. That's what the 924C is.
[01:32:19] Okay? And so,
[01:32:21] um
[01:32:22] this case it came down and when the case
[01:32:24] it came down um
[01:32:27] you know, one of the things in the
[01:32:27] federal system is that there's a
[01:32:29] database
[01:32:30] um that everybody's incarcerated under,
[01:32:32] you know, whatever statute it is. You
[01:32:35] know what I'm saying to you? And so,
[01:32:36] um
[01:32:38] when there's a case when there's a
[01:32:39] change in the law, whether it comes from
[01:32:40] Supreme Court or Congress or the
[01:32:42] Sentencing Commission there's a list of
[01:32:45] names of people that may be subjected to
[01:32:48] relief because of the change of the law.
[01:32:50] And so, every Interesting.
[01:32:52] >> district
[01:32:54] um every district um and every city and
[01:32:56] and and every federal you know, every
[01:32:58] district in in the federal system or
[01:33:00] whatever,
[01:33:01] um they get hit with a list of names.
[01:33:03] And for free, they have to uh represent
[01:33:07] you.
[01:33:07] And so, what happened was because of the
[01:33:10] United States versus Davis case, my name
[01:33:12] had hit the list
[01:33:14] of people that may be subjected to
[01:33:15] relief based on the 924C convictions
[01:33:18] that I was convicted under. And so, um
[01:33:22] the attorney um
[01:33:24] which is you know, shout out to Kila E.
[01:33:25] You know, he's a Court of Appeals judge
[01:33:27] now. He was the attorney who uh
[01:33:29] researched my case properly the right
[01:33:30] way. Um and he was the one who actually
[01:33:33] discovered that my prior convictions
[01:33:36] were not qualifying prior convictions
[01:33:38] that wanted me to ever be subjected to
[01:33:41] um to be sentenced under the federal
[01:33:43] three strikes law. Because like you
[01:33:44] know, I was the I'm like even like to to
[01:33:46] this day I'm the first and only person
[01:33:48] in Minnesota history to be sentenced
[01:33:51] under the federal three strikes law. You
[01:33:52] know, and it was done illegally. Right.
[01:33:54] Um and so,
[01:33:56] um he had reached out to um the unit
[01:33:58] manager. Actually, he called up there,
[01:33:59] reached out to the unit manager. He
[01:34:00] didn't send me a letter.
[01:34:03] And she set up a legal call. And at the
[01:34:05] time, prior to that, before
[01:34:08] them actually locking the institution
[01:34:10] down because of the pandemic, I had
[01:34:12] filed
[01:34:14] a 2255 motion
[01:34:16] before the court. Once again, telling
[01:34:19] the court, "Hey, look, my sentence is
[01:34:20] illegal. My lawyer was ineffective, you
[01:34:23] know, among you know, a multitude of
[01:34:26] other issues that I presented and came
[01:34:27] in with based on case law and different
[01:34:30] things that had changed throughout the
[01:34:32] course of my incarceration." And so,
[01:34:35] when she set up this legal call,
[01:34:37] I'm assuming or thinking that he was
[01:34:40] originally, when she told me that a
[01:34:41] lawyer called up there, that the judge
[01:34:43] was going to grant me an evidentiary
[01:34:45] hearing.
[01:34:46] And usually when, you know, you if
[01:34:47] you're pro se and you file a motion and
[01:34:50] the court grants an evidentiary hearing,
[01:34:52] they usually appoint a counsel to
[01:34:53] represent you during this particular
[01:34:55] hearing, unless you just insist on being
[01:34:58] pro se. That's what I thought the phone
[01:35:01] call was originally for.
[01:35:02] It wasn't until I actually sat and spoke
[01:35:04] to him that he um
[01:35:07] informed me that my sentence was
[01:35:08] illegal. And that
[01:35:10] from the very beginning,
[01:35:12] I should have never been sentenced to
[01:35:14] life without the possibility of parole
[01:35:16] because I never had the priors to
[01:35:17] qualify for it.
[01:35:18] >> Right, which again, just to reiterate,
[01:35:20] were crime of violence
[01:35:22] with a firearm that carried a sentence
[01:35:26] of over 10 years.
[01:35:27] >> did I did I did not have priors that
[01:35:30] were prior
[01:35:32] qualifying priors that were
[01:35:34] that were prior convictions that were 10
[01:35:36] year or more 10 years or more. They were
[01:35:38] only 7 years. 7 years was the max.
[01:35:41] >> were for the shootings.
[01:35:42] >> were for the shootings or the the prior
[01:35:44] drug convictions.
[01:35:45] Yeah. And this guy, he he was a he was
[01:35:48] working with the federal government.
[01:35:50] >> was a He worked at the with the federal
[01:35:52] he was a at the federal defender's
[01:35:54] office.
[01:35:54] >> Got it. Okay, so they whenever a law a
[01:35:58] case law comes down, there's a there's a
[01:36:00] Supreme Court decision that changes all
[01:36:03] of the circumstances of the convicted
[01:36:05] inmates,
[01:36:06] they get alerted the federal public
[01:36:08] defenders. Okay, that's pretty awesome.
[01:36:10] That's one that's like one of the
[01:36:13] more benevolent things I've heard of the
[01:36:14] system supplying, you know.
[01:36:17] >> [clears throat]
[01:36:17] >> Okay, that's super interesting. I hope
[01:36:19] people
[01:36:20] hear that they're listening or watching.
[01:36:21] Um
[01:36:23] Wow, so you must have been
[01:36:25] Uh
[01:36:26] you probably couldn't sleep that night.
[01:36:28] >> Right. You know, the
[01:36:29] the funny thing about it is I you know
[01:36:32] at first like when he when he called up
[01:36:34] there and he explained to me I didn't
[01:36:35] really
[01:36:36] you know, I didn't really understand it,
[01:36:38] you know, because you got like I said
[01:36:39] you I I have researched my case
[01:36:43] through and through, you know, and I've
[01:36:45] seen it where it said that, but I'm
[01:36:47] saying to myself like well
[01:36:50] you know, I got these prior convictions
[01:36:52] that that you know, cuz like when like
[01:36:54] when you look at the statute they list
[01:36:56] certain priors assaults and things like
[01:36:59] that, but I didn't [clears throat] see
[01:37:00] that little
[01:37:02] fine print that said punishable by 10
[01:37:04] years or more.
[01:37:05] I always
[01:37:07] I always look past it, but of course,
[01:37:09] you know, once I got off the phone with
[01:37:11] him and I looked and I researched it
[01:37:12] myself cuz I had you know, my I had my
[01:37:14] legal work in my you know, my cell
[01:37:17] and I when I really looked at it, I'm
[01:37:19] like
[01:37:21] Oh yeah, he's right, you know, and so
[01:37:23] now
[01:37:26] when I discovered this like I said you
[01:37:27] this is the time you know, again when
[01:37:29] George Floyd was murdered, you know, and
[01:37:32] so I called my family, you know, and I'm
[01:37:33] like hey
[01:37:35] you know, that's what the lawyer said,
[01:37:36] you know,
[01:37:37] he represent me, you know, and so
[01:37:40] um
[01:37:41] I'm like man, we need to go to the media
[01:37:43] with this because I should have never
[01:37:45] received this amount of time, you know,
[01:37:47] and so and I remember the next
[01:37:48] conversation I had when I told them I'm
[01:37:50] like, well, my fam, we're going to the
[01:37:51] media. He's like, no. Cuz the government
[01:37:53] had already called at that time once he
[01:37:55] put them on notice as to what actually
[01:37:57] transpired and happened,
[01:38:00] you know, that's when they're like,
[01:38:01] well, hold on. Let's resolve this under
[01:38:04] the table. Mhm. They didn't want to go
[01:38:06] like they didn't even have to go back to
[01:38:07] the DOJ, to the Justice Department to
[01:38:09] even get permission to do what they did.
[01:38:11] They were trying to find a way
[01:38:13] to try to resolve it under the table.
[01:38:16] You get what I'm saying? So you because
[01:38:17] >> because they knew it was so illegal?
[01:38:20] Yeah, because you have to understand at
[01:38:21] that particular time when when George
[01:38:23] Floyd is murdered
[01:38:24] >> Mhm. um
[01:38:26] you have the whole world with the whole
[01:38:28] world in the uproar, you know, just
[01:38:30] imagine how that looks in the state of
[01:38:31] Minnesota. You know, here it is there's
[01:38:33] this guy that you guys splashed it on
[01:38:35] the news that you um had in multiple
[01:38:38] newspaper articles, you know, um and you
[01:38:40] guys gave all of this time to for a
[01:38:42] non-capital offense. You know, here it
[01:38:45] is, you mean to tell me this entire time
[01:38:46] that it was illegal? Right.
[01:38:48] >> man never had the prior convictions to
[01:38:50] qualify or even warrant you to be able
[01:38:51] to
[01:38:52] um sentence him to mandatory life
[01:38:54] without the possibility of parole? Like
[01:38:55] I never was supposed to receive a life
[01:38:57] sentence. Right. You know, so they they
[01:38:59] they get
[01:38:59] >> you had like this time you and the
[01:39:00] Unabomber. No, listen No, the No, the
[01:39:02] crazy thing about it is like when you
[01:39:04] look at when you look at um
[01:39:06] at my documentary,
[01:39:08] um that's one of the things like I don't
[01:39:09] know if you're familiar with the BTK
[01:39:11] killer. He He He received 10 consecutive
[01:39:13] life sentences for killing nine people.
[01:39:15] Right.
[01:39:16] >> You know, I have the same amount of time
[01:39:17] that this guy has for a non-capital
[01:39:19] offense. Like you have to make that make
[01:39:21] sense to me.
[01:39:22] >> Yeah. You know. So at this point So
[01:39:25] yeah, they're trying to they're just
[01:39:26] trying to play ball. They want to deal
[01:39:27] immediately. Okay. Right. We're so
[01:39:28] sorry. Let's Let's adjudicate this and
[01:39:31] get you home before you sue us, before
[01:39:33] you go to the media with it.
[01:39:34] >> Right.
[01:39:35] How did you feel? Were you the party you
[01:39:37] say I mean cuz I've I've We've had guys
[01:39:39] on here who were getting getting ready
[01:39:41] to get paid a lot of money for the the
[01:39:43] dead time that they did. The time that
[01:39:45] they were illegally incarcerated. It's
[01:39:47] like
[01:39:48] thousands of dollars a day. Right. Maybe
[01:39:51] even more than that.
[01:39:52] >> Yeah. Uh may it might be like by the
[01:39:54] hour they pay you. But what did you
[01:39:56] think? Did you Did part of you say, "No,
[01:39:58] I want to like
[01:39:59] I want my money." Right. No, for me it
[01:40:01] wasn't about
[01:40:03] it wasn't about the money. You know, for
[01:40:05] me it was just about the blessing.
[01:40:07] Mhm. Um and a second opportunity at
[01:40:09] life, you know, a second opportunity at
[01:40:11] um
[01:40:12] at fatherhood, you know, a second you
[01:40:13] know, a second opportunity at um
[01:40:16] you know, being able to spend time with
[01:40:17] my family, being able to
[01:40:19] um to just fall in love again, you know,
[01:40:21] with a woman. Like those were the things
[01:40:23] that made you know, like like the money
[01:40:25] that you know, that can be made a
[01:40:26] different way. You know, I don't I don't
[01:40:28] I don't
[01:40:29] For me this is not a tack This is not no
[01:40:31] attack on the on the federal government
[01:40:33] or the criminal justice system per se
[01:40:34] like that. It's not an attack. Um I just
[01:40:37] think that um one of the biggest things
[01:40:40] is that um
[01:40:41] you know, I just want people to to
[01:40:44] understand that no matter what my
[01:40:45] situation was or no matter what
[01:40:47] circumstances that you go through in
[01:40:49] life that you can overcome it. My
[01:40:50] biggest blessing
[01:40:52] um is me being able to sit across from
[01:40:54] this table right now um and just
[01:40:57] actually share the story and tell the
[01:40:58] story to you. Um that means more to me
[01:41:01] than money.
[01:41:02] You get what I'm saying to you? Um so I
[01:41:05] didn't have no I don't have no gripe.
[01:41:07] You know, it's not about me suing
[01:41:09] anybody. Like no, I'm going to be
[01:41:10] blessed um
[01:41:12] in a in a different way. This right here
[01:41:13] today is a blessing. To be able to
[01:41:16] to be free from prison, to be able to
[01:41:18] breathe the different air that's out
[01:41:19] here. Mhm. Um that's what I take away
[01:41:21] from it. I don't It's not about the
[01:41:22] money.
[01:41:23] So you really were a changed man at this
[01:41:26] point. Um
[01:41:27] and that is in 2020 just right as
[01:41:29] COVID's breaking. So did you guys
[01:41:32] adjudicate it before COVID or did you
[01:41:34] wait?
[01:41:35] >> No, see what ended up happening was for
[01:41:36] 2 weeks
[01:41:38] uh lawyer as well as
[01:41:41] the government they kind of went back
[01:41:42] and forth trying to figure out the best
[01:41:44] resolution cuz like my lawyer at the
[01:41:45] time he was trying to give me immediate
[01:41:46] release.
[01:41:47] That was the goal or and if not that
[01:41:49] even just the original plea agreement
[01:41:51] without the cooperation.
[01:41:52] >> Right. Which was 15?
[01:41:54] >> was which was which which was that which
[01:41:56] would have kicked me out the door.
[01:41:57] >> Right. And so but they weren't willing
[01:41:59] to do that. And so what ended up
[01:42:01] happening was
[01:42:03] 300 months which is 25 years
[01:42:07] and he contacted the facility you know
[01:42:09] and he um
[01:42:12] you know said to me look this is what
[01:42:14] this is what they're offering
[01:42:16] but I need an answer you know do you
[01:42:18] want to take it you know and so of
[01:42:19] course you know a second chance at life
[01:42:22] I take it you know.
[01:42:23] >> So so you
[01:42:24] you got re-sentenced
[01:42:26] >> Right. I got re-sentenced.
[01:42:27] >> a plea deal for 25 years.
[01:42:28] >> Yeah they came the agreement was that
[01:42:31] they would
[01:42:33] follow a joint motion with my lawyer
[01:42:36] um
[01:42:37] and they would agree to 30 month 300
[01:42:39] month sentence right dismiss
[01:42:42] uh
[01:42:44] counts 11 through 19 which was the 924C
[01:42:47] the firearms dismiss those
[01:42:50] um and then and
[01:42:52] keep the same sentence intact on count
[01:42:54] one which is 240 months and then impose
[01:42:57] a 5 year sentence
[01:42:59] uh for the felon in possession of a
[01:43:01] firearm charge that that I was also that
[01:43:03] I also had as well too which made it 25
[01:43:05] years.
[01:43:06] Um and when they filed a joint motion my
[01:43:09] lawyer jumped on board with their motion
[01:43:12] and then the court ultimately just
[01:43:13] granted their motion because they
[01:43:14] acknowledged that
[01:43:15] um that they had made an error by
[01:43:17] charging me with the um
[01:43:20] 3559 statute. Did your original
[01:43:22] sentencing judge was she the one that
[01:43:24] was forced to to do it? Now did she do
[01:43:26] it willingly or
[01:43:28] >> Yeah. Yeah she she I mean because you I
[01:43:29] guess it you You to understand that
[01:43:32] think about the time that we're in. You
[01:43:33] know, we're the time like I said to you
[01:43:35] again where Joyce Ford is murdering.
[01:43:37] Like you like you know, it was
[01:43:39] you know, 5 years prior to that
[01:43:42] if we would have had the same issue
[01:43:43] before the court
[01:43:45] she would have had to legally grant the
[01:43:47] motion, but I still could have been
[01:43:49] subjected to
[01:43:51] um
[01:43:53] 45 years because I got 20 years on count
[01:43:57] one of the for the conspiracy, but then
[01:44:00] I also have these two felony possession
[01:44:02] of firearm counts that I can receive uh
[01:44:04] 15 years on.
[01:44:06] You get what I'm saying to you? Um
[01:44:09] and so
[01:44:10] but because of the times that we're in
[01:44:13] you know, it's kind of hard for you to
[01:44:14] be able to say, "Okay, well, you know
[01:44:15] what? I'm still going to I'm still going
[01:44:17] to I'm still going to dog." But then
[01:44:18] also you know, if I can rewind back um
[01:44:23] we have to talk about post
[01:44:24] rehabilitation. You know, and that was
[01:44:27] one of the goals or that was one of the
[01:44:29] commitments that I made to myself
[01:44:31] um when I walked in the prison, you
[01:44:33] know, was to change everything about me
[01:44:35] because I always told myself that if
[01:44:37] given
[01:44:38] um a second opportunity to be back in
[01:44:40] front of any judge I want to give them a
[01:44:42] reason to have mercy on me. You know,
[01:44:44] and so that's why when I walked in the
[01:44:46] prison, I programmed. You know, I I you
[01:44:48] know, I I
[01:44:49] end up having
[01:44:50] over 50 or 60 certification
[01:44:53] certificates. I got certified as a
[01:44:55] personal trainer. I was I was a suicide
[01:44:57] companion for for 4 years. I had wrote
[01:45:00] multiple books while being in there. You
[01:45:01] know, and I had never had an incident
[01:45:03] report. You know, these were the things
[01:45:05] that I focused on while I was in prison
[01:45:06] as opposed to, you know, anything else.
[01:45:09] Um and so I think that once the court
[01:45:12] looked at everything in a nutshell, I
[01:45:14] think that's what ultimately
[01:45:16] allowed the court to be able to say it's
[01:45:17] a no-brainer here, you know, and and
[01:45:20] give me another opportunity. Yeah, I
[01:45:21] think judges too, even though it seems
[01:45:24] vindictive or maybe it was vindictive,
[01:45:26] you know, years have gone by, so maybe
[01:45:28] their attitudes have softened, right?
[01:45:31] The pendulum has swung, you know?
[01:45:33] Um did you ever hear from the AUSA that
[01:45:35] originally put the case on you? You
[01:45:37] know,
[01:45:38] um one of the one of the craziest and
[01:45:41] funniest uh stories I can tell you is
[01:45:42] this.
[01:45:43] I had two prosecutors on my case, right?
[01:45:47] Um
[01:45:49] and
[01:45:50] one of the prosecutors that was that
[01:45:52] prosecuted my case
[01:45:54] was the head US attorney
[01:45:56] at the time that this all transpired.
[01:45:59] She had to sign off my This is the
[01:46:02] prosecutor who prosecuted me. She had to
[01:46:04] sign off on them filing this joint
[01:46:07] motion to the court for the court to be
[01:46:10] able to vacate my sentence.
[01:46:12] And so, you know, when I sit back and I
[01:46:13] think about things,
[01:46:15] just imagine how that comes back full
[01:46:17] circle. You know, this is the same
[01:46:18] prosecutor who prosecuted my case who
[01:46:20] says, "Okay, you know what?
[01:46:22] We want him to spend the rest of his
[01:46:23] life in prison." Had to off to be the
[01:46:25] one to say, "Hey, look,
[01:46:27] file this motion and sign off on it."
[01:46:30] She was the head of the district? She
[01:46:31] was the head of the US attorney of the
[01:46:33] district?
[01:46:35] >> yeah. So, for uh
[01:46:37] breaking the law,
[01:46:39] overlooking
[01:46:40] the sentencing statutes, she got a
[01:46:42] promotion. Yeah. These bums Yeah. These
[01:46:45] bums It happens. That's why I pray for a
[01:46:48] uh
[01:46:49] a big currency crisis. I also I want the
[01:46:51] whole economy to collapse so we could
[01:46:53] finally
[01:46:54] cut out 80% of the whole government, all
[01:46:56] of them. They're cancer. Anyways, it's a
[01:46:59] little side note. See, I get very
[01:47:00] emotional. Yeah. You're all calm. You're
[01:47:01] the one who did the time. Yeah. I see.
[01:47:04] >> [laughter]
[01:47:05] >> So, um
[01:47:07] so you'd already been down in 2020 for
[01:47:09] 16 years? 16 and a half years.
[01:47:11] >> 16 and a half, so then off of 25,
[01:47:14] 85% of that is like 22 or something.
[01:47:17] Yeah. I mean, when I got
[01:47:20] when my sentence got vacated and I got
[01:47:22] My original out date or projected
[01:47:24] release date was September 14th, 2025.
[01:47:28] >> Mhm. Um and of course, like I said you,
[01:47:30] once my sentence got vacated, I then
[01:47:33] qualified for things that had changed um
[01:47:37] throughout the years in the federal
[01:47:39] system. And one of those being uh the
[01:47:41] First Step Act, which was an act that uh
[01:47:43] Donald Trump signed um into office.
[01:47:46] >> Yeah. Um and with the First Step Act,
[01:47:48] because I had accumulated so many uh
[01:47:51] days just based on programming, I
[01:47:53] qualified for a year off my sentence.
[01:47:56] >> Right. So, um I ended up going from uh
[01:48:00] September 14th, 2025 to September 14th,
[01:48:03] 2024.
[01:48:05] Um and then, like I said you, once
[01:48:06] again, um I qualified for so many
[01:48:10] different things that changed, I
[01:48:11] qualified as well under the Second
[01:48:14] Chance Act, which was that I could
[01:48:16] receive up to a year um halfway house or
[01:48:19] home confinement. Um and so, because,
[01:48:23] like I said you, I had done so many I
[01:48:25] had you know, I had so many different
[01:48:26] programs under my belt, um
[01:48:30] I ultimately was uh eligible for 17
[01:48:33] months. But due to the bed space in
[01:48:35] halfway house, you know, um because of
[01:48:38] the First Step Act and them starting to
[01:48:39] release a lot of people early um because
[01:48:42] they qualified for it, um I ultimately
[01:48:44] got released 13 months early
[01:48:47] um from prison.
[01:48:47] >> So, you got You came home I came home um
[01:48:50] August uh
[01:48:52] 13th, uh 2023. Wow. Yeah, that's when I
[01:48:56] came home. I did 19 years, 2 months, and
[01:48:58] 4 days.
[01:49:00] What an odyssey, man. Yeah. Yeah, I
[01:49:02] mean, I I respect the
[01:49:05] the mind the strength of your mind.
[01:49:08] Yeah. Uh
[01:49:10] I mean, you should see what happens
[01:49:11] when, like, a FedEx package doesn't get
[01:49:14] delivered on time. Right.
[01:49:15] >> I I lose it. I lose it. I just
[01:49:19] I don't know. I'm probably pampered. You
[01:49:21] know what I mean? We we came up
[01:49:22] differently, but you know, I think I
[01:49:24] think you've got something in you, too.
[01:49:26] To even from a young age like standing
[01:49:29] on your principles of not snitching. I
[01:49:31] think you got good karma for that. Yeah.
[01:49:35] And and just not being defeated from
[01:49:39] from looking at just death. Just walk I
[01:49:42] would see dudes when I was locked up
[01:49:44] with no no release date and I'm just
[01:49:47] like I'm looking at a dead man. Just in
[01:49:50] living form.
[01:49:51] For you to deny that
[01:49:53] in your mind is I think really rare and
[01:49:58] but necessary. You know, you're
[01:49:59] manifesting it. Rick Ross, Freeway Rick
[01:50:02] Ross, he had this he had a similar
[01:50:03] mindset. He was like I'm not in here.
[01:50:05] I'm in here physically, but
[01:50:07] um
[01:50:09] I'm going to I'm going to get out.
[01:50:12] And he did. So I really really respect
[01:50:14] it. That was That's pretty amazing. And
[01:50:17] now you're out here making content,
[01:50:18] dude.
[01:50:19] So
[01:50:21] yeah, what do you want to promote? I
[01:50:22] mean the documentary you have a
[01:50:23] documentary that you made about us.
[01:50:25] Just you know, me sharing the story as
[01:50:27] well. You know, we myself
[01:50:29] and my brother executive produced a
[01:50:31] project called Minnesota Justice.
[01:50:33] And again, you know, it's just about
[01:50:36] you know, me telling people what
[01:50:38] happened what transpired and just how
[01:50:39] much even just like
[01:50:41] um
[01:50:43] I respect uh
[01:50:45] every protester
[01:50:47] um that got [clears throat] out there
[01:50:48] and they marched and they protested uh
[01:50:50] following the death of George Floyd.
[01:50:53] I respect them because
[01:50:55] I tell people this all the time, and I
[01:50:57] even mention it you know, in the
[01:50:58] documentary where it's like
[01:51:01] I don't believe that I'm here right now
[01:51:03] had they not done that.
[01:51:05] You know,
[01:51:06] because
[01:51:08] for years
[01:51:10] you know, the same things that
[01:51:12] that people
[01:51:15] you know, African-Americans, you know,
[01:51:17] and minorities
[01:51:18] um are eligible for or bring forth today
[01:51:22] were ignored prior to that. And they
[01:51:24] were ignored for years. That's where the
[01:51:26] frustration and anger grew from because
[01:51:29] for years we felt like they were getting
[01:51:31] away with so much.
[01:51:33] You get what I'm saying to you? And that
[01:51:34] we were unheard, you know? And so, you
[01:51:38] know, once people you know, we got to um
[01:51:42] to a point where
[01:51:44] they seen, you know, some like have
[01:51:46] actually happened live on TV that
[01:51:48] couldn't nobody you couldn't there How
[01:51:50] do you How do you How do you look away
[01:51:52] from that, you know? And you seen the
[01:51:54] response and the reaction from the
[01:51:55] world, not just this country, but even
[01:51:58] just other countries and just the anger
[01:52:00] and the frustration. Um
[01:52:03] it's hard like I said you to to to to to
[01:52:06] to walk away from that. You know, and so
[01:52:09] um
[01:52:10] for the people that did go out there and
[01:52:11] march and protest,
[01:52:13] um
[01:52:14] I'm grateful, extremely grateful, you
[01:52:17] know? And And I tell people this all the
[01:52:18] time, too, is is like, you know, while
[01:52:20] we know that it was a tragedy I feel
[01:52:23] like he was a sacrifice for people like
[01:52:25] myself, you know, to be given a second
[01:52:27] opportunity, a second chance at life,
[01:52:29] um as well as, you know, um other things
[01:52:31] that, you know, we have you know, been
[01:52:33] able to to to gain and benefit from, you
[01:52:36] know? So, while it was definitely a
[01:52:38] a tragedy, as well though, there's also
[01:52:40] been blessings that have come out of it
[01:52:41] and come from it as well, too, and I'm
[01:52:43] living proof that one of I'm a I'm a
[01:52:44] blessing
[01:52:45] um because of something like that, you
[01:52:47] know? Um so, yeah, I'm grateful. Well,
[01:52:50] congratulations on your freedom, man.
[01:52:51] >> Yeah, appreciate it, for sure.
[01:52:52] >> to have you out and doing very well. So,
[01:52:55] um we're going to put a link to your
[01:52:56] documentary. It's a four-part
[01:52:58] >> Yeah, it's going to be a four-part
[01:52:59] docu-series, as you know, documentary
[01:53:01] docu-series. It's going to be on your
[01:53:02] YouTube channel?
[01:53:03] >> Yeah, it's going to be on a YouTube
[01:53:04] channel that we're we're We're and we're
[01:53:05] creating.
[01:53:06] Um and that you know, I I also too um
[01:53:08] you know, myself and my brother we have
[01:53:09] a podcast that we're starting uh called
[01:53:11] Brother to Brother.
[01:53:13] Um, and you know, we just want to um
[01:53:15] join all conversations. You know, I look
[01:53:17] at um this podcast room and this podcast
[01:53:19] space this is a dope space to be in. I
[01:53:21] think that um
[01:53:23] you know, especially you know, me being
[01:53:24] someone who has done time
[01:53:27] um and who has experienced a a bunch of
[01:53:29] different things um and even just
[01:53:30] watching all of these other podcasts
[01:53:32] just kind of giving opinion and have a
[01:53:34] voice when it comes to certain things.
[01:53:36] Um, I know that um I can help um shape
[01:53:40] um certain conversations certain
[01:53:41] arguments, you know,
[01:53:43] um and get people to be able to
[01:53:45] understand um things on a different
[01:53:47] level. Um, I think that's extremely
[01:53:49] important for myself um as to be able to
[01:53:51] do that, you know, so we we like we we
[01:53:53] we we working hard, man. You know, and I
[01:53:55] have um you know, I have other
[01:53:58] interviews that I'm that I'm looking uh
[01:54:00] forward to uh lined up, you know, so.
[01:54:02] >> Yeah, so check him check him out on
[01:54:04] Instagram. Uh, by the time this comes
[01:54:06] out, I think the first parts of the
[01:54:07] documentary will be out. So, we'll link
[01:54:09] to that and uh yeah, just going forward,
[01:54:12] man. We wish you nothing but the best.
[01:54:13] Check out your podcast Brother to
[01:54:15] Brother.
[01:54:16] Um, yeah, that this was really uh
[01:54:18] fascinating.
[01:54:19] >> I appreciate So, thank you for coming on
[01:54:21] and blessing us, man.
[01:54:21] >> I appreciate the opportunity. Of course.
[01:54:23] [music] All right, you guys. We'll see
[01:54:24] you next time. Peace.
[01:54:29] >> [music]