# Bissera V. Pentcheva, Hagia Sophia, Dumbarton Oaks Public Lecture, April 1, 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAQhrdpcsdA

[00:00] hello and welcome to our public lecture
[00:04] the concept and experience of holy
[00:06] wisdom in haia Sophia my name is Anna
[00:10] stavra culu and I'm the program director
[00:12] in bantine studies at dton Oaks before
[00:16] introducing our speaker Professor Biser
[00:19] peneva I would like to invite Tom cins
[00:22] for some introductory remarks let me
[00:25] present him first Thomas BF Cummins is
[00:29] the Amberton Oaks professor of the
[00:31] history of pre-colombian and Colonial
[00:34] art in the department of the history of
[00:37] art and architecture at Harvard
[00:39] University and director of dton Oaks his
[00:43] research and teaching focuses on
[00:45] pre-colombian and Latin American
[00:47] Colonial art he recently co-edited
[00:52] sacred matters animism and Authority in
[00:55] the pre Colombian Americas with Steve
[00:58] kba and John josc published by dton o in
[01:03] 2020
[01:05] Tom thank you Anna uh and it's a
[01:08] pleasure to be with you all here today
[01:11] and good day to you all whatever time of
[01:13] day it is or even whatever day it is for
[01:17] you uh it's uh a pleasure to be able to
[01:22] bring this to a larger audience in a
[01:24] time of uh dislocation and isolation the
[01:29] only thing that that has been really
[01:31] positive is to expand our public so that
[01:34] we can offer around the world some of
[01:38] the scholarship that makes up uh our Dum
[01:42] Martin Oaks and it's really a true
[01:45] pleasure to be able to bring this to you
[01:49] uh uh with the idea that next year we
[01:53] will be able to be on campus we can all
[01:55] look forward to having some of this put
[01:58] behind us and to return to some sense of
[02:01] normality but with that uh it's
[02:04] important to say that these days uh
[02:08] we've been able to provide a forum for
[02:12] this work and for people's work to not
[02:15] only go on but to be disseminated to as
[02:19] large a public as we possibly can
[02:22] achieve and so uh it's really a
[02:25] wonderful thing to be able to have bis
[02:28] come and to present her work for us uh
[02:31] sitting as she is in her own office at
[02:34] Stanford I'm here at dumart Oaks and
[02:38] Anna is in Athens uh we're separated by
[02:42] hours and Miles uh but we're all brought
[02:45] together in the fellowship of
[02:47] scholarship and that's what's most
[02:49] important and I appreciate uh her coming
[02:52] to present to you I appreciate you all
[02:55] being with us and I also deeply
[02:57] appreciate the staff at dumart Oaks to
[03:00] make this all possible they have worked
[03:02] tirelessly in a period of great
[03:06] difficulty to make sure that what dumbar
[03:09] o stands for at the highest level of
[03:11] scholarship continues and so with that I
[03:14] would like to turn it over
[03:16] Donna thank you thank you very much Tom
[03:20] so B Pena I'm truly delighted to
[03:23] introduce
[03:25] bisera Beneva is an art historian of
[03:28] Byzantine and medieval art her
[03:31] Publications include three books with
[03:33] Pennsylvania State University press
[03:36] icons and power the mother of God in
[03:40] Byzantium H it was published in 2006 and
[03:43] in 2010 it won the John Nicholas Brown
[03:46] prize the sensual icon space ritual and
[03:51] the census in Byzantium published in
[03:54] 2010 and haia sopia sound space and
[03:58] spirit in byzan
[04:01] 2017 and and got the uh 2018 American
[04:06] Academy of religion award for excellence
[04:09] in historical studies she has also
[04:12] published two edited volumes oral
[04:16] architecture in banum a a l oral
[04:21] architecture music Acoustics and ritual
[04:25] ashgate
[04:26] 2018 and icons of sound voice
[04:30] architecture and Imagination in medieval
[04:33] art Routledge
[04:35] 2021 just came out her work is informed
[04:39] by anthropology music and
[04:42] phenomenology focusing on the changing
[04:45] appearance of objects and Architectural
[04:48] spaces for the past decade she has
[04:51] co-directed the interdisciplinary
[04:53] project icons of sound that explores the
[04:57] Acoustics and Aesthetics of Haas Sophia
[05:01] bisera the floor is
[05:03] yours thank you Anna thank you Tom for
[05:06] this invitation I'm very happy to
[05:09] present a dber Oaks and for a large
[05:11] audience and I also thank all the staff
[05:14] Judy and Charlotte at tton o for their
[05:17] help in the scheduling of this event so
[05:21] I'll turn to the talk today I'll share
[05:23] my screen
[05:48] hag sopia is a poent symbol of power and
[05:51] it is a question and a choice of how it
[05:54] is used to repress and silence or to
[05:57] open and include we all stand to benefit
[06:01] from Equitable Society the hoarding of
[06:04] resources the fractionalization of
[06:06] Sacred Space only bring Division and
[06:08] renounce the possibility of a common
[06:11] goal and a societal investment in
[06:13] harmonious
[06:15] cohabitation as a scholar I would like
[06:17] to propose an approach to Hagia sopia
[06:20] that can enable us to Envision such a
[06:22] pluralistic tolerant Equitable Society
[06:26] my focus is on Aesthetics for sensorial
[06:29] experience is the threshold to the
[06:31] spiritual it appeals to our physical
[06:33] senses before it triggers language
[06:36] interpretation cultural codification and
[06:39] difference I bring together Christian
[06:42] with Islamic mystical texts to uncover
[06:44] shared spirituality which in turn could
[06:47] open the possibility of recognizing
[06:50] otherness strangeness in one's identity
[06:53] what I argue is that the strength of
[06:55] shared neoplatonic spirituality defines
[06:58] mystical movement in both Christianity
[07:00] and
[07:02] Islam neoplatonism is the foreignness
[07:05] within identity but it's also in a
[07:07] strange way a bridge between
[07:09] Christianity and Islam as a result
[07:12] reading texts sourced from Byzantine
[07:14] Mogi the Islamic Brethren of Purity and
[07:17] Sufism against the material fabric of
[07:20] Hagia sopia leads us to insights into
[07:23] the operations of Sacred Space and
[07:25] enables us to see how this space
[07:28] seamlessly translates the two religious
[07:31] idioms The Living Waters of the sea the
[07:34] Rays of light Breeze Optical reflection
[07:38] and acoustic reverberation a phenomena
[07:41] metaphors and materiality within Hagia
[07:44] sopia that make present the metaphysical
[07:47] in the
[07:48] sensorial on the Christian side I draw
[07:51] on the sixth Century writings of seu
[07:53] dionisius who translated neop platonic
[07:56] thought into mainstream Christian
[07:58] spirituality
[08:00] the 7th Century Mogi of Maximus the
[08:02] Confessor and the two sixth Century
[08:04] easis of Hagia Sophia by procopius and
[08:08] Paul the cenury on the Islamic side my
[08:11] analysis is ahistorical I have sourced
[08:14] my quotes from the 10th Century rala
[08:17] letter on music letter 50 of the
[08:19] Brethren of Purity an esoteric
[08:22] fraternity of Muslim urbanites invested
[08:24] in neoplatonism and the 13th century
[08:27] Sufi poetry of jalaludin Rumi whose
[08:31] writings established the mevi Sufi order
[08:34] to whom the ottoman Sultans had a
[08:36] particular
[08:37] inclination ri's poetry also exercised a
[08:41] profound influence on ottoman literature
[08:44] he enabled the articulation of an
[08:46] ottoman spiritual understanding of
[08:48] Sacred Space built outside the discourse
[08:51] of conquest and suppression I read roomi
[08:55] into the interior of hag Sophia knowing
[08:58] that he did not not right about this
[09:00] space yet I show through this
[09:03] ahistorical
[09:04] Jos how alterity can dwell in the center
[09:08] of one's identity there is Islamic
[09:11] mystical texts Channel ideas that are at
[09:14] the heart of Christian understanding of
[09:16] transcendence like the circular motility
[09:18] horos or the emptying of the self in the
[09:21] Divine henosis I set this dionic
[09:25] approach as a modern mirror allowing us
[09:28] to recognize the extimate in the
[09:30] intimate the foreign in the familiar and
[09:34] thus suggest what Hagia sopia can mean
[09:37] spiritually in Islamic eyes beyond the
[09:40] reductivist Neo ottoman triumphalist
[09:43] rhetoric of
[09:44] today and I'm inspired to follow this
[09:47] path by the words of the philosopher and
[09:50] psychoanalyst Yulia Christa and she
[09:52] writes I quote strangely The Stranger
[09:56] lives within us he is the hidden face of
[09:59] our identity the space that wrecks our
[10:02] Abode the time in which understanding
[10:05] and Affinity founder by recognizing him
[10:08] within ourselves we are spared detesting
[10:12] him in himself a symptom that precisely
[10:15] turns we into a problem perhaps makes it
[10:19] impossible The Foreigner comes in when
[10:22] the consciousness of my difference
[10:24] arises and he disappears when we
[10:27] acknowledge ourselves as far foreigners
[10:30] unamenable to bonds and communities end
[10:33] of quote I'm advocating for this
[10:35] Consciousness that we are all foreigners
[10:38] and alterity is at the core of our
[10:41] intimacy and what better way to preserve
[10:43] Hagia sopia's outstanding Universal
[10:46] value than by recognizing its balence
[10:50] its strangeness and its protean matter
[10:52] and intangible spirituality resonating
[10:56] with and anchoring different religions
[11:05] the void Under the Dome is known in
[11:07] Greek as koros horos defines both space
[11:11] and action circular stage and the
[11:14] singing and dance the sixth Century
[11:17] acasis recognized the circular shape of
[11:20] this architectural void in Hagia sopia
[11:23] and read into it a circular motility as
[11:26] the outward expression of an invisible
[11:28] divine force and I quote from procopius
[11:32] and whenever anyone enters this church
[11:34] to pray he understands at once that it
[11:37] is not by any human power or skill but
[11:40] by the influence of God that this work
[11:42] has been so finely turned and so his
[11:46] mind is lifted up towards God and
[11:49] exalted feeling that he cannot be far
[11:52] away but must especially love to dwell
[11:55] in this place which he has chosen end of
[11:58] quote The Potter's Wheel brings about
[12:01] the image of ceaseless circling motion
[12:06] Theos the koros is formed by this
[12:09] whirling Dynamic and once swept by the
[12:12] horos the faithful entering the interior
[12:15] feel the upward pool while
[12:17] simultaneously perceiving divinity's
[12:20] Earthbound descent God has descended he
[12:23] loves to dwell in the koros to hang out
[12:27] to linger as summarized in the GRE term
[12:30] ailo
[12:31] horin the second easis written in
[12:34] homeric exameter by Paul the cantry
[12:36] makes similar observations it recognizes
[12:40] the circular motility causing the
[12:42] interior to spin like a helmet enabling
[12:45] its gradual Ascent to heaven and I quote
[12:49] a helmet Rising above into the boundless
[12:52] air spins elic it from both sides into a
[12:56] sphere radiant as the heavens
[12:59] it bestrides the roof of the church and
[13:02] of God the interior of hagas sopia the
[13:05] boundless koros appears like a
[13:08] helicopter pulled by circular motion of
[13:11] its propeller to ascend
[13:13] heavenward both procopius and Paul the
[13:16] century Channel and neoplatonic
[13:19] understanding of the animating circular
[13:22] Dynamic of the cosmos Theus defines it
[13:26] as follows and I quote this so so far as
[13:29] I know is the first rank of heavenly
[13:32] beings positioned in a circle around God
[13:36] in immediate proximity to him simply and
[13:39] ceaselessly they Circle dances around an
[13:43] eternal knowledge of him according to
[13:45] the Angel's highest strank as the
[13:48] celestial nature is ever moving the
[13:51] Divine intelligences are set to move as
[13:54] follows firstly they move in a circle
[13:57] while they are at one with those
[13:59] illuminations which without beginning
[14:01] and Without End emerge from the good and
[14:04] the
[14:05] Beautiful then they move in a straight
[14:07] line out of Providence they come to
[14:10] offer unerring guidance to all those
[14:13] below them finally they move in a spiral
[14:17] for even while they're providing for
[14:19] those beneath them they continue to
[14:22] remain what they are and they turn
[14:25] inceasing around the beautiful and the
[14:28] good from which all identity comes the
[14:31] soul too has similar movements end of
[14:34] quote the Divine intelligences
[14:37] simultaneously perform a tripartite
[14:39] dynamic a circular linear up and down
[14:43] and finally a helicoidal one the
[14:46] celestial motility is mirrored by the
[14:48] Mortal
[14:52] Soul natural light also performs a
[14:56] continual dial horos a circular d dance
[14:59] and this phenomenon visualizes the
[15:02] circular motility of the Divine in Hagia
[15:04] sopia the positioning of the windows in
[15:07] the drum of the dome in the aex of the
[15:10] timana in the absis enables the viewer
[15:15] to perceive its rotation in the course
[15:17] of the day and the year Thomas witmore
[15:20] who directed The restoration of the
[15:22] mosaics and helped the establishment of
[15:24] the museum in 1934 was mesmerized by the
[15:28] sons coros he observed I quote direct
[15:32] light rushes in shining streams dazzles
[15:36] keeps constantly moving and revolving
[15:38] Hagia Sophia is a lurgical instrument
[15:41] tuned by light end of quote the main
[15:45] axis of The Bu the building is
[15:47] approximately 32° Southeast and it
[15:51] aligns with the azimut of the Sun for
[15:53] Christmas on December 25th so I'm
[15:56] showing you here a drawing by in anichi
[16:00] and in the red you have the movement of
[16:02] the Sun during the winter solstice in
[16:04] the blue you have the movement of the
[16:06] Sun during the summer solstice so you
[16:08] can see the direct
[16:10] alignment through the apps on the winter
[16:22] solstice during the winter solstice as
[16:24] the sun rises the first Rays pass
[16:27] through the center of the the main East
[16:29] West
[16:32] axis the moment that you see here and
[16:36] then eventually they touch the floor
[16:38] move in the direction towards the ABS
[16:41] and then the southern side is
[16:42] illuminated which illuminates the
[16:44] northern side of the
[16:46] building and the light is extinguished
[16:49] at the northeast
[16:55] corner similarly half a year later as
[16:58] the summer solstice on June 21st appears
[17:02] the last rays of the Setting Sun align
[17:05] with the East West
[17:07] axis here they will align with the apps
[17:12] again Sunrise starts
[17:17] at the northern
[17:19] tanum the Northeast Exedra and the apps
[17:24] and the apps and gradually it moves
[17:27] reaching the floor and sliding on it
[17:29] creates pools of
[17:31] water these tracks of Luminosity TR
[17:33] travel through the koros reach the Amo
[17:37] and then they disappear at noon that you
[17:39] just saw the interior has no direct
[17:41] sunlight it is Mystical and dark this
[17:43] time coincides with the third hour and
[17:45] the distribution of the Eucharist
[17:48] presenting the Divine in the mystical
[17:50] illumination of diffuse indirect light
[17:53] direct sunrays return in the interior
[17:56] around 1:30 in the afternoon and and the
[17:59] shafts of life circle around the sudden
[18:01] tempal these Rays reach the floor and
[18:03] transform it upon contact into pools of
[18:06] water at Sunset they reach the West
[18:08] facade what you saw at the end of the
[18:10] animation and as the sun sets down its
[18:13] Rays inversely climb to reach and
[18:16] illuminate the apps right at that second
[18:18] of completion making the apps
[18:20] incandescent the Sun dies and natural
[18:23] light Fades away the circum ulation of
[18:26] light inscribes the metaphysical into
[18:29] the perceptual and temporal in ha
[18:34] sopia the circular Dynamic of horos
[18:37] pushing the soul to be uplifted to the
[18:39] Divine shapes the understanding of
[18:41] wisdom Sofia the abstract concept to
[18:44] which Hagia Sophia is dedicated wisdom
[18:47] in scripture is defined as a mirror
[18:50] esoptron and an icon econ I quot no
[18:53] blemish Creeps in her for wisdom is the
[18:56] radiance of the ineffable light and a
[18:59] spotless mirror of the Divine energies
[19:03] and its most sacred
[19:05] image Ser the dionisius expands further
[19:08] of the on the Divine mirror he says a
[19:11] hary bears in itself the mark of God
[19:15] hary causes its members to be images of
[19:18] God in all respects to be clear and
[19:21] spotless mirrors reflecting the glow of
[19:24] primordial light and indeed God himself
[19:28] it ensures that when its members have
[19:30] received this first this full and divine
[19:33] Splendor they can then pass it on this
[19:37] light generously and in accordance with
[19:40] God's will to beings further down the
[19:42] scale end of quote the Divine as
[19:45] esoptron mirror defines the aex the dome
[19:48] in hag sopia it euses light that
[19:51] illuminates the lower
[19:53] orders the material shell of Hagia
[19:56] Sophia enacts this Divine illumination
[19:58] that causes matter to become a
[20:00] reflective incandescent mirror the
[20:03] windows in the drum of the Dome and in
[20:05] the absis and Exedra Channel Direct
[20:08] light from above transforming sunrays
[20:11] into Columns of light giving a
[20:13] paradoxical perceptual appearance of
[20:16] tangible matter dust and smoke of
[20:19] incense can make air dense and enhance
[20:21] this perceptual reification of light
[20:24] when the sunrays penetrate the interior
[20:27] they gradually descend to touch the
[20:29] floor transforming its polished surface
[20:32] into pools of light and thereby causing
[20:35] a concatenated perceptual metamorphosis
[20:38] of stone and light into the isomorphism
[20:42] of water this liques a high reflectivity
[20:46] coefficient of prian marble which is on
[20:48] the floor of hag
[20:50] sopia end endows the space with unusual
[20:54] when compared to Modern Aesthetics in
[20:57] which the floor has higher reflectivity
[20:59] compared to the walls and ceiling in a
[21:02] modern building surface reflectance
[21:04] recommendation are as follows 20% for
[21:07] the floor 50 for the walls and 80 for
[21:10] the ceiling in Hagia Sophia this ratio
[21:13] is in inverse the highest reflectivity
[21:15] belongs to the floor hence its current
[21:19] covering with carpet subdues the
[21:22] luminesence of the interior and
[21:24] undercuts the original aesthetic
[21:27] similarly the insistent simultaneous use
[21:30] of LED lights disrupts the mystical and
[21:33] dramatic effects of the light
[21:36] pools on the marble floor and walls
[21:39] destroying the opalescent shine of the
[21:42] marble at times reminiscent of the
[21:45] surface of the bosers and mother of
[21:47] pearl what in other buildings would be
[21:50] considered blinding glare in Hagia sopia
[21:53] becomes an incarnation of spirit in
[21:56] matter OSIS
[22:01] Hai sopia enacts the process of
[22:04] inspiriting by making the effects of
[22:07] light perceptually prominent attracting
[22:10] the attention of the viewer Paul the
[22:12] century recognizes the animating effect
[22:15] of natural light in the great church and
[22:17] how it quickens marble and stone making
[22:20] them radiant reflective mirrors and I
[22:23] quote the ceiling encompassing God gold
[22:26] in late Tess who pouring down in
[22:29] glittering gold streaming Ray
[22:32] irresistibly bounces off the faces of
[22:34] the Fatal end of quote hagio sopia is a
[22:38] system once energy is introduced in it
[22:41] light it bounces off intensifies and in
[22:45] the process it animates and agitates all
[22:48] matter contained inside the material
[22:51] shell transforming substance hey into
[22:55] perceptual Radiant Pools of water
[23:01] the Byzantine formula for inspiriting is
[23:03] a cross in a circle the very symbolum
[23:07] which once graced the aex of the
[23:09] justinianic
[23:11] Dome it appears in the interior decor
[23:14] and on many lurgical furnishings and
[23:17] vessels poly candel and the ukar patents
[23:20] and chalises in bantin and it is
[23:23] understood as a sign channeling spirit
[23:27] and producing haris Grace the cross in a
[23:30] circle is a
[23:34] kaym I'm showing you one of the places
[23:37] on the walls of haia suia above in the
[23:41] spandrel of the second uh cornice below
[23:44] the second cornes where there were
[23:45] bronze crosses in the pory discs and you
[23:48] can still see the shadows of this pory
[23:50] um of the of the Cross but this cross in
[23:53] a
[23:54] circle studies on kaym have explored
[23:57] this formula in pros and poetry kaym is
[24:01] present in Homer's Odyssey in the Psalms
[24:04] in John's gospel to name a few important
[24:06] texts kaym is an inverted symmetry or
[24:10] horizontal mirror and its simplest form
[24:13] is a vers A and B mirrored across the
[24:16] horizontal axis C into B1 and A1 Psalm 8
[24:21] will serve as my model right now
[24:29] it has four verses that lead to a
[24:31] chastic center followed by the inverted
[24:33] symmetry of the closing four lines man
[24:36] is at the center of the created World
[24:39] framed by the Divine above are the skies
[24:42] below the Earth and Waters a world
[24:45] enveloped by God and praising his
[24:48] creation which is reflected in the frame
[24:52] kaym imprints spirit in matter this is
[24:55] the reason the Eucharist bread carries
[24:57] its stamp k m is thus both a mirror and
[25:00] osis and thus an expression of sopia the
[25:03] radiant
[25:05] mirror the chastic shape is invested in
[25:08] the cross in a circle but it also
[25:11] subconsciously manifests itself in the
[25:13] wave pattern of the book Matched
[25:15] proconnesian
[25:19] Marvel like an incident and reflected
[25:22] ray these mirror symmetries draw
[25:25] attention to the spiritual operation of
[25:27] the ES
[25:29] and
[25:29] inspiriting Kay's figuration of
[25:32] mirroring and inspiriting defined the
[25:34] motility of the soul and its
[25:36] Transcendence emptying into a union with
[25:39] the Divine henosis kenosis in henosis
[25:44] empting into a union remember the kaym
[25:47] in Psalm 8 and the human at the center
[25:50] of it the human being achieves likeness
[25:53] to God through a mirroring process
[25:56] independent from pictorial m misses the
[25:59] mind no acts as such a mirror if this
[26:02] esron is set wrongly or dimed it will no
[26:06] longer be able to capture reflect and
[26:08] reflect the Divine likeness will be lost
[26:11] and with it the possibility to sustain
[26:14] the image of God they come to and I
[26:17] quote from Gregory of missa as we said
[26:20] the mind is decorated by the likeness of
[26:24] the prototype's beauty in the way that a
[26:26] mirror is shaped from the reflection of
[26:29] the person who appears in it by this
[26:31] analogy the nature managed by the mind
[26:35] is set up in a similar way it is adorned
[26:38] by the beauty at hand like by the beauty
[26:41] at hand like some mirror of a mirror The
[26:45] Noose reflects the
[26:48] Divine and it allows for the possibility
[26:51] to recuperate through reflection the
[26:53] state of being an econ to th Gregory of
[26:57] Nissa defines the not as a
[26:59] representation but as a performance
[27:01] reflection of incident Rays the mind is
[27:05] attracted to the Divine wisdom triggered
[27:08] by love it progresses towards sopia
[27:10] wisdom as Maximus the Confessor in the
[27:13] sth century States and I
[27:16] quote for from God come both our general
[27:20] power of motion and the particular way
[27:22] that we move toward him if an
[27:25] intellective being is moved intellect
[27:28] that is in a manner appropriate to
[27:30] itself then it will necessarily become a
[27:33] knowing intellect but if it knows it
[27:36] surely loves that which it knows and if
[27:39] it loves it certainly suffers an ecstasy
[27:42] towards it as an object of Love If It
[27:45] suffers this ecstasy it obviously urges
[27:48] itself onward and if it urges itself
[27:51] onward it surely intensifies and greatly
[27:55] accelerates its motion and if its motion
[27:58] is intensified in this way it will not
[28:01] cease until it is wholly present in the
[28:05] whole beloved and wholly encompassed by
[28:07] it willingly receiving the whole saving
[28:11] circumscription by its own choice so
[28:13] that it might be wholly qualified by the
[28:16] whole circumscribe and being wholly
[28:18] circumscribed will no longer be able to
[28:21] wish to be known for it from its own
[28:24] qualities but rather from those of the
[28:27] circumscribe in the same way that air is
[28:30] Thoroughly permeated by light or iron in
[28:33] a forge is completely penetrated by fire
[28:36] or anything else of this sort end of
[28:39] quote Maximus the Confessor explains how
[28:43] an intellective being driven by the
[28:45] force Sofia transcends the limits of the
[28:49] self and it is suffused in the Divine
[28:52] and thus reaches
[28:54] deification the movement is circular
[28:56] helico and ascending in which the self
[28:59] transcends its limits and dissolves in
[29:01] the Divine and this process is
[29:03] circumscription cross in a
[29:06] circle Christians and Muslims share this
[29:09] concept of performative eonity produced
[29:13] through
[29:14] reflection
[29:16] henosis in their epistle 50 dedicated to
[29:20] music the neop platonist Brethren of
[29:23] Purity Ian Al Safa a mystical sect of
[29:26] Islam formed in the 10th Century bastan
[29:29] wrotes as writes as follows I quote when
[29:33] images of beautiful precepts are
[29:35] inscribed on individual Souls they
[29:38] become analogous to and correspond to
[29:40] the perfect soul and are filled with
[29:43] longing for it and a desire to be
[29:45] conjoined with it when they depart from
[29:48] the physical shell these individual
[29:51] Souls Ascend to the Heavenly realm and
[29:53] are united with the highest host and
[29:56] thereupon they become sure of Eternity
[29:59] and are safe from Annihilation and
[30:01] experience the pleasure of existence in
[30:04] a state of Purity and of quot the
[30:07] imprint of Beauty on the individual soul
[30:09] makes it aspire to the perfect Divine
[30:12] soul and seek to ascend and fuse with it
[30:16] while the Branden see Union in the souls
[30:19] living the body and ascending like a
[30:21] pearl freed from the shell and I say I
[30:25] quote souls are extracted from bod
[30:28] just as spls from an oyster shell end of
[30:32] quote the opalescent marble of hag sopia
[30:35] at sunrise and sunset articulates this
[30:38] notion of body as an oyster shell and
[30:41] soul as a pearl but let me come back to
[30:44] the Noose to the Mind reflecting the
[30:47] Divine Light if the Brethren of Purity
[30:49] see Union as the soul leaving the body
[30:52] and ascending the 13th century Sufi
[30:55] Mystic roomi envisions it as an intern
[30:58] operation polishing one's heart to
[31:01] reflect the Divine and I
[31:03] quot I went to the mountains of Herod
[31:06] and Kandahar I looked he was not in that
[31:10] hill or Dale I gazed into my own heart
[31:13] there I saw him he was nowhere else and
[31:16] of quot the human being as a microcosm
[31:20] reflects the macrocosm there in the
[31:23] faithful polished heart the icon of the
[31:26] Divine Ries
[31:30] the metaphor of the mirror which is
[31:32] expressive of Sophia and the Noose
[31:35] striving for a union is a phenomenon in
[31:38] Hagia sopia it is both a temporal
[31:41] enactment and a graphic chastic sign
[31:44] linguistically mirroring Associates the
[31:47] onomic murmur of the sea marar with the
[31:51] marble marmar light and Breeze make the
[31:56] surface of the sea become alive
[31:58] quicken in
[31:59] coruscation so too light as an
[32:03] intangible column of Sunrise transforms
[32:06] the surface of marar into the marara
[32:09] glitter resembling pools of water and
[32:14] both marble and glitter share Affinity
[32:16] to margar Margarita the Pearl Paul the
[32:20] century writes to Des end and I quote
[32:24] the peak of pronus soothingly spreading
[32:28] over the entire pavement has gladly
[32:30] given its back to the lifegiving
[32:33] mistress the softly Rippling bosers
[32:36] appears as the radiance of dark metal
[32:40] that it has transformed into a luminous
[32:42] surface like shining wall the
[32:46] easis conjures the perceptual image of
[32:49] water that is in a continuous flux its
[32:52] changing appearance shifting from molten
[32:55] metal to blinding whiteness of soft wool
[32:58] speaks to the quickening Life Force at
[33:01] sunet and sunrise the procesan marble
[33:05] takes on the opalescence of mother of
[33:07] pearl evocative of the
[33:10] bosers the image of the marusa murmuring
[33:14] sea speaks also to an Islamic cosmology
[33:18] for the Divine creation starts in water
[33:20] I quote we made every living thing of
[33:26] water
[33:28] Shing but it is the Poetry of Rumi which
[33:32] unfolds the spiritual significance of
[33:34] the sea with its slapping waves of
[33:37] henosis I quote mankind like a seago is
[33:42] sprung from the water the Sea of Saul
[33:45] risen from the sea why should the bird
[33:48] make here his home nay we are pearls in
[33:51] that sea therein we all abide else why
[33:54] does wave upon wave follow the sea of
[33:58] Soul this the time of Union's attainment
[34:01] this the time of eternity's beauty this
[34:04] the time of favor and larest this the
[34:07] ocean of Perfect Purity the Billow of
[34:10] larest had appeared the Thunder of the
[34:12] sea had arrived the mourn of blessedness
[34:15] at dawn mourn no this the light of God
[34:19] and of God humanity is like a seagull a
[34:22] light and bobbing on the surface of the
[34:24] sea wave upon wave capture the creation
[34:27] of of souls the souls are pearls water
[34:30] the souls form allowing fusion and thus
[34:33] it becomes a metaphor of transcenders of
[34:36] henosis with the Divine the light of
[34:39] dawn illuminates the sea its coruscating
[34:42] waves and figure the quickening energy
[34:44] of the Divine the interior of Hagia
[34:47] sopia covered in procesan Marble enacts
[34:50] the opalescence of the sea suggesting
[34:53] waves and the Sheltering mother of pearl
[34:55] birthing pearls soul
[35:00] water is about transformation the dis
[35:03] encumbering of spirit from matter yet
[35:05] matter makes this Transcendence
[35:07] sensorially percept perceptual in the
[35:10] optical phenomena played on the marble
[35:13] in Hagia sopia R's poetry reveals shared
[35:16] sensitivity that allows Christian and
[35:19] Muslim to see their spirituality
[35:21] reflected in that space and I quote from
[35:24] room The Vessel of my being was
[35:27] completely hidden in the sea the sea
[35:29] broke into waves and again wisdom arose
[35:34] so it cast abroad a voice so it happened
[35:37] and thus it
[35:38] beell foamed the sea and every foam
[35:42] Flack something took figure and
[35:44] something was boded forth every foam
[35:47] flck of body which received the sign
[35:50] from the sea melted straight away and
[35:53] turned to Spirit in this ocean and of
[35:55] quot the vessel of being dissolves to
[35:58] give rise to Spirit wisdom as light
[36:01] voice wind riffles the surface of the
[36:04] sea fo bodies forth form which
[36:09] disintegrate as quickly as they shape
[36:12] releasing the individual pearls to seek
[36:15] circumscription in the
[36:18] Divine water has an acoustic dimension
[36:21] in Hagia sopia the polished marble and
[36:25] the great interior volume of Hagia sopia
[36:27] of
[36:29] 250,000 cubic feet results in
[36:32] reverberant Acoustics so too the concept
[36:35] of sopia is defined in oural terms as
[36:40] the one who HS at the gates utters her
[36:43] voice opens her lips to speak her throat
[36:47] practices the truth the words of her
[36:49] mouth are in
[36:51] righteousness sopia is the breath of
[36:53] God's power and the effusion of the pure
[36:56] glory of the p C end of quote all these
[36:59] quotes are from the scripture DOA glory
[37:03] is expressed through Radiance the words
[37:05] shape a synesthetic understanding of
[37:07] brightness as Optical and acoustic
[37:11] moreover the optical phenomenon of
[37:13] shafts of sunrays penetrating the
[37:16] interior and descending to touch the
[37:18] floor acquires an ouro manifestation in
[37:21] the acoustic metaphor in the acoustic
[37:24] waterfall in which high frequency waves
[37:28] concentrate and reflect and produce a
[37:31] bright Golden Rain that Rains Down the
[37:35] koros so the high frequencies of sound
[37:38] Gather in the dome and then just like
[37:40] the light rain down to the
[37:43] floor as waves both light and sound
[37:46] reflect off polished surfaces the visual
[37:49] symmetries marked with the graphic
[37:52] formula of the butterfly symmetries on
[37:54] the book Matched marbles acquire an
[37:56] acoustic equip equivalent in voice and
[37:59] reverberation the great interior volume
[38:02] and reflective surfaces of Marvel ensure
[38:05] the extremely long reverberation that
[38:07] you can see within the range of the
[38:09] human voice of up to 11
[38:14] seconds endal The Voice with special
[38:17] powers Paul the centuy recognizes the
[38:20] role of the vast interior volume and
[38:23] polished marble for the Acoustics when
[38:25] he writes who will sing gaping with the
[38:29] Thundering mouths of Homer the marble
[38:32] mow solidly assembled along the walls or
[38:35] the open Plains of the haltingly high
[38:38] now and of cold the Thundering voice of
[38:41] the space is the residual sound that
[38:44] continues to propagate and reflect after
[38:47] initial note is sung in the space these
[38:50] are 11 seconds in the writings about the
[38:53] singing in hagya sopia there is an
[38:55] insistence on mirroring between the
[38:58] Angelic singing in heaven and its echo
[39:01] in the human chant of Praise of the
[39:03] Divine on Earth thus an acoustic mirror
[39:07] asum the celestial agentic force
[39:10] reflects in the human terrestrial
[39:13] performance voice and reverberation
[39:15] appeared as incident and reflected Rays
[39:19] this is how the inauguration Anthem a
[39:21] 562 describes the acoustic mirroring of
[39:25] Heaven and Earth I quote
[39:28] here is the voice of joyfulness and of
[39:30] Salvation and an echo of those making
[39:33] Festival in the spirit which God
[39:36] composed as a Harmony of many voices
[39:39] life and a resurrection of all end of
[39:41] quote the celestial voice of Joy
[39:45] reflects in the reverberant Echo of
[39:47] human chant and in the process nevma
[39:51] ands as spirit and breath envelop and
[39:54] it's consumed by the faithful in the
[39:57] Chant I will play which is a Pimon a
[40:00] gradual sung before the scriptural
[40:02] readings for the Feast of Basil the 1
[40:05] you will see how the Divine model in the
[40:07] singing of Sophia is mirrored echoed in
[40:10] the human performance the chant is
[40:12] structured as a call and response the
[40:15] celestial leads the terrestrial reflects
[40:18] the singing of the word sopia wisdom
[40:21] establishes the model and you can see it
[40:23] here with a long melisma followed by the
[40:26] intercol intercalation of non-semantic
[40:31] vocables the melody is then
[40:35] repeated with small variations uh at the
[40:38] singing of all the people pant e
[40:44] but the human mirror of the Divine
[40:47] wisdom but it is slightly decreased in
[40:50] ambitus it only reaches to f as opposed
[40:52] to G in the singing of
[40:55] Sophia observe also the this ution of
[40:57] form in the singing of sopia and
[41:01] pant with the melismas and the
[41:03] intercalations
[41:05] of melismas had inter intercalations
[41:08] become the acoustic equivalent of
[41:11] henosis of the dissolution of the Noose
[41:14] in Sofia and I'm going to play it for
[41:16] you now
[41:40] V we can't hear
[41:42] it you can't hear for some reason no we
[41:45] can't hear the sound that you're playing
[41:47] now very well I'll try again uh I'll
[41:50] stop the uh sharing and redo it again
[41:53] just to make sure thank you for letting
[41:54] me know yes I I think or people can hear
[41:58] it no other people can hear it I can see
[42:00] now in the chat so play it again okay
[42:03] play it again not a
[42:26] problem
[42:56] for
[43:26] e
[43:56] for
[44:26] I'll play it till
[44:28] for I'll play it till
[44:28] here the important parts that I want to
[44:31] draw is the reflectivity of sopia and
[44:34] the way it's sung at Pata ety so there
[44:36] is a Divine model and human
[44:39] reciprocation in it and just a few
[44:42] words a few words about what you just
[44:45] heard the life oranization that you
[44:49] heard is the product of and the
[44:51] collaboration icons of sound and
[44:53] specifically Jonathan who developed
[44:55] the system in which the acoustic samples
[44:58] of balloon Pops that are recorded in
[44:59] Hagia Sophia he used those to extract
[45:02] the acoustic signature of the space and
[45:04] then in collaboration with capella
[45:06] Romana to imprint That acoustic
[45:08] signature on live performance so many
[45:12] more chant are recorded through this
[45:14] collaboration this is our website um
[45:16] icons of sound this is the album The
[45:19] Lost voices of ha Sophia by capella
[45:21] Romana where you could hear them they're
[45:23] available on Spotify they're available
[45:25] on Nexus as well
[45:32] one other aspect that you also heard
[45:34] with in the Chant is how the form of
[45:37] words disintegrates like sopia and
[45:40] panata ethne through the melismas and
[45:43] the intercalations so it becomes
[45:45] acoustic manifestation of henosis of
[45:47] Union in the optical the sun is the
[45:51] agentive
[45:53] power in the horos of light in the
[45:56] interior by contrast in the oural domain
[45:59] the human voice takes on the agentive
[46:02] power the transformation from Human
[46:05] breath into Divine PMA takes place in
[46:08] the
[46:09] Dome the apex of the Dome is a kaym
[46:12] transforming Sonic energy into the
[46:15] metaphysical bodess Voice via Cosa the
[46:18] elite choir sings from the amble this
[46:22] structure down here and here is a 11th
[46:24] century manuscript that shows when the
[46:27] elite choir could climb up the stairs to
[46:30] project their voices into the
[46:32] void this Elite choir is positioned
[46:36] under the Eastern rim of the Dome and
[46:38] this is how PA the cant describes its
[46:41] agentive presence in the space in the
[46:44] center of the koros are the pious hymn
[46:47] singing cans the universal axis the
[46:51] agency of their voice makes manifest how
[46:55] the Divine utterance of
[46:57] is mixing the immac spirit with mortal
[47:00] flesh announcing the human incarnation
[47:03] of Christ and of quot by exhaling their
[47:06] breath in Space the singers activate the
[47:09] Acoustics of the interior and the
[47:12] imagination of the faithful making the
[47:14] Divine a temporal icon of sound that
[47:17] reverberates and gradually dissipates
[47:20] below the threshold of audibility the
[47:23] Greek distinguishes between the mystical
[47:26] Divine utterance
[47:27] designated with the humic word AI from
[47:30] which the from the voice of The Mortals
[47:34] F AI is at the root of omalos the
[47:37] umbilical center around which the world
[47:41] revolves it is this invisible and at
[47:44] first inaudible metaphysical presence
[47:47] that enters the perceptible when human
[47:49] breath is exhaled in Space the revolving
[47:53] motion is also suggested by the word
[47:55] hopo which designates the singers for
[48:00] polos is an axis around which the
[48:03] spherical celestial bodies
[48:06] revolve chant is imagined as an agentic
[48:09] force that brings about the horos the
[48:12] material shell the koros reacts to this
[48:15] energy Brea it breath it out
[48:18] transforming the silence into vibrations
[48:21] of energy propagating and reflective
[48:24] reflecting off the walls and consumed by
[48:27] the bodies of the faithful the Divine do
[48:30] becomes sensorially present but
[48:33] withdrawn from anthropomorphic
[48:35] figuration hence the invisible econic of
[48:39] the human incarnation of Christ is a
[48:41] temporal phenomenon an icon of sound
[48:44] breath energy incarnate in Space the
[48:47] justinianic interior manifested the
[48:51] Divinity in this icon of sound free from
[48:54] figure representations
[48:57] this performative image is mexic it
[49:00] partakes in PMA just as PMA identifies
[49:05] both breath and spirit so singing is an
[49:08] act of inspirating exhaling breath
[49:11] allowing the interior and exterior to
[49:14] interconnect as a system of vibrations
[49:17] consumed by bodies the icon of sound is
[49:21] an essential dis image it partakes in
[49:23] the essence of the Prototype the icon of
[49:26] sound is a concept that crosses over the
[49:30] Islamic realm and establishes shared
[49:33] values the acoustic mirroring of
[49:35] celestial and terrestrial is present in
[49:37] R's
[49:39] poetry as the Divine sound love
[49:42] overshadows the terrestrial it overcomes
[49:45] the Earthly D enabling the soul to
[49:48] recognize its likeness in the Divine
[49:51] face
[49:52] within I quote love sounds the music of
[49:56] the Spheres love Echoes the Earth's love
[50:01] Echoes through Earth's harshest di the
[50:04] world of God's pure mirror clear to eyes
[50:08] when free from clouds within with Love's
[50:12] own eyes the mirrors View and there see
[50:15] God to self Ain and the quot in the
[50:19] introspective Journey the polished heart
[50:21] of the purified is a mirror whose
[50:24] reflective surface reveals the
[50:26] recognition or dissolution of the self
[50:28] in the Divine the process of
[50:31] purification allows the faithful to
[50:34] recuperate in themselves the image of
[50:36] the Divine to
[50:39] conclude in Reading B Byzantine
[50:41] mystagogical texts with Rumi and the Ian
[50:45] Al Safa into the fabric of Hagia sopia
[50:49] this paper puts in action Walter
[50:52] Benjamin's understanding of the task of
[50:54] the translator as that of finding I
[50:57] quote in his own language that latent
[51:00] structure which can awake the echo of
[51:03] the original it calls the original
[51:06] insight for genuine translation is
[51:09] translucent it does not Veil the
[51:11] original text nor Shadow it rather it
[51:15] allows the
[51:18] radiance the radiant universal language
[51:21] a
[51:23] Radiance intensified by the particular
[51:26] idiom
[51:27] to fall the more brightly on the
[51:29] original end of quote translation is
[51:32] form allowing the universal language the
[51:35] Divine to resonate I see room's poetry
[51:39] as translation of Sacred Space the way
[51:42] it is perfectly incarnate in Hagia sopia
[51:46] his poetry makes the material fabric of
[51:48] this great building transluc it allowing
[51:52] us to recognize Spirit within I also
[51:55] purposefully
[51:57] read RI to show that the alterity of the
[52:02] Islamic Mystic I also purposefully read
[52:05] RI to show that in the alterity of the
[52:08] Islamic Mystic we find the intimacy of
[52:10] Christian
[52:12] spirituality the recognition of
[52:14] otherness at the center of identity
[52:17] allows us to accept otherness outside
[52:19] the outstanding Universal value of Hagia
[52:22] sopia will be honored when this building
[52:25] resonates with its historical multiple
[52:28] religious voices without Strife cultural
[52:32] heritage is not about who speaks the
[52:36] loudest to claim this Monument but who
[52:40] recuperates in the audible the traces of
[52:43] loss which have fallen below the
[52:46] threshold of human hearing thank
[52:50] you thank you thank you so much
[52:53] B um I would like to ask the audience
[52:56] now to write their questions in the
[52:59] Q&A um so that um we read them I see
[53:05] there are people who have raised their
[53:07] hands so maybe um I will let them uh ask
[53:11] you their question directly B shall we
[53:13] do this very well okay um
[53:17] so
[53:19] [Music]
[53:20] um Glenn Garrett I guess please go ahead
[53:24] and ask your question
[53:31] no I think you have to write your
[53:34] questions in the Q&A uh I don't think we
[53:37] can um yes so um Joan Bennett what book
[53:42] did she read from what book did you read
[53:45] from uh I guess this has to do with yeah
[53:48] go
[53:51] ahead the development of the analysis of
[53:54] byzantin Mr Mr Gogi is in my book Hagia
[53:57] sopia sound space and spirit in banum
[54:01] but this talk presents new material and
[54:03] I read the Brethren uh Purity which is
[54:07] published in Translation by um Wright um
[54:11] Owen Wright and I also read The Poetry
[54:15] of jalaludin roomi which has appeared in
[54:18] many different editions I think it's
[54:19] easier to
[54:21] find thank you short answer thank you
[54:24] thank you uh we we have more questions
[54:27] um so Alexandria Brown had Jai she is
[54:32] asking could you speak more about the
[54:35] altering of Islamic
[54:38] mysticism uh I'm also curious if you
[54:40] found any other relations between the
[54:42] circularity of haia sopia and
[54:45] circularity of Sufi
[54:48] practices my talk is an
[54:51] invitation I invite other people to step
[54:54] on this path and really think about
[54:57] shared um spiritual practices so clearly
[55:01] the M order has the practice of sama uh
[55:04] sound which is connected sound and dance
[55:07] and it it's an it's a field for
[55:09] exploration I'm just scratching the
[55:11] surface I would say also at the center
[55:14] within Islamic practice is the TA of the
[55:17] circulation of the Kaba so we coming
[55:20] back to really core um spiritual ideas
[55:24] that underscore many different religions
[55:27] I'll leave it open I feel that this is a
[55:29] question that I'm inviting the um
[55:32] Scholars of Islamic uh religion and art
[55:35] and architecture to step in it's a
[55:38] conver it's a dialogue that I'm trying
[55:39] to
[55:40] establish wonderful the authority of
[55:43] Byzantium never too Western and never
[55:45] too Eastern of being in between so
[55:47] Byzantium is the
[55:50] door thank you thank you Bah uh so there
[55:53] is another question and I'm sure many
[55:55] people want
[55:56] um whether um do you if you know Patrick
[56:02] Becker and naidenov is asking do you
[56:04] know how the carpets that have been
[56:07] installed
[56:09] influence um the the buildings acoustic
[56:13] characteristics especially given
[56:15] different speech intelligibility ideal
[56:18] uh between the byzantin chant in the
[56:20] quranic
[56:23] recitation the carpets have negative
[56:26] effect on both the optical and the
[56:30] acoustic manifestation of this
[56:33] metaphysical energy in the space they
[56:34] reduce the light and they reduce the
[56:36] reverberation so the building is less
[56:39] inspirited as a result which means that
[56:43] microphones and electric lights now find
[56:46] themselves anchored in it and uh it's
[56:50] just uh up um veils the aesthetic of
[56:54] that
[56:54] building mhm so maybe we can ask now
[56:58] Glenn Garrett who has uh been permitted
[57:00] to talk would you like to ask your
[57:02] question Glenn
[57:08] Garrett
[57:10] hello we can't hear I can't
[57:13] hear uh yes I can't hear either
[57:18] um
[57:20] uh yes okay why don't you Glenn Garrett
[57:25] please write your question in the Q&A
[57:27] and this way we can ask visera so there
[57:32] are people who are just writing uh
[57:36] congratul sorry congratulatory
[57:39] notes uh so uh and we will give you the
[57:43] the Q&A later bisera so um what does the
[57:48] current Turkish political leadership
[57:50] gain by changing the status of haia
[57:53] Sophia from Museum to mosque is it
[57:55] purely
[57:56] ideological or symbolic how does heia
[57:59] Sophia as a mosque help those leaders
[58:02] politically or otherwise Spencer woly is
[58:04] asking this
[58:07] question the reconversion of the museum
[58:10] into a mosque is entirely a political
[58:13] and ideological act um it's complex it
[58:18] is like a it's like the type of
[58:20] translation that Benjamin did not
[58:22] support the type of translation that
[58:25] cannot make the original Echo inside the
[58:28] building belongs to two religions the
[58:31] triumphalist Discord is discourse is
[58:35] reductivist and it is not just the
[58:37] conversion of the building but the new
[58:38] website that the Turkish government
[58:40] placed online which had erased Byzantium
[58:44] so this building it's not even the three
[58:47] sentences that relate to Justinian and
[58:50] in these three sentences byzantin is
[58:52] represented as an Empire of decay of
[58:56] earthquakes and political instability
[58:59] and then mhmed Fati comes in and
[59:02] establishes stability in other words
[59:05] this is one voice and that is the
[59:07] ottoman voice silencing the Byzantine
[59:10] and I find this to be against what the
[59:14] outstanding Universal value of this
[59:16] building is as a UNESCO
[59:18] Monument it needs truth is about the
[59:22] multiple voices not the Erasure of
[59:24] voices this Con version was about
[59:26] Erasure of a
[59:29] voices yes and it's also not surprising
[59:31] it's the last thing I'm going to say it
[59:33] is hag sopia is just an iceberg it's at
[59:36] the peak this reconversion it's at the
[59:38] peak of what is happening in Turkish
[59:39] society today frequently what two weeks
[59:43] ago turkey pull out from the women's
[59:47] protection of women's rights uh is an
[59:50] example frequently appears with the
[59:52] image of hag Sophia the news is
[59:54] introduced with the image of hag sopia
[59:56] it's silencing of voices that we are
[59:58] seeing and the rise of a totalitarian
[01:00:01] regime thank you thank you so um Maria
[01:00:05] Santo is uh asking I would like to hear
[01:00:08] your view on illumination and light in
[01:00:10] ha Sophia and the hesus emphasis on
[01:00:14] Divine Light and possible connections
[01:00:16] with Islamic
[01:00:20] mysticism I don't have a precise answer
[01:00:23] to this huge question
[01:00:27] and I'm not a scholar focusing on HM it
[01:00:30] is a mystical movement um within
[01:00:32] Byzantium the late period and it has
[01:00:35] this all this introspective aspect to it
[01:00:38] of really the discovering the Divine in
[01:00:40] the silence in the darkness illumination
[01:00:43] so it's a way again of channeling new
[01:00:45] platonic ideas but I'm not scholar in
[01:00:47] the field in order to give more
[01:00:49] insightful answer I'll just step down uh
[01:00:53] and leave the platform for someone else
[01:00:56] sure thank you Mark Hammond is asking
[01:00:59] are there examples of solar alignment in
[01:01:02] the design of churches elsewhere or
[01:01:05] might it be a result of the normal East
[01:01:08] West
[01:01:11] alignments Hagia sopia is pretty
[01:01:14] specific and um given who uh The
[01:01:17] Architects were of Hagia sopia it even
[01:01:21] though we don't have texts that speak
[01:01:22] about intentionality the building is
[01:01:24] intentionally Al aligned with the
[01:01:28] solstices um there are many important
[01:01:30] churches within
[01:01:32] Christendom who are accidented like St
[01:01:35] peters's uh for example so orientation
[01:01:39] is special but it is an aspect in which
[01:01:41] architecture historians could uh spend
[01:01:44] pay attention to and uh there are
[01:01:48] examples of churches that are aligned
[01:01:51] with the rise of the sun on the feast
[01:01:53] day of the Saints to which the church is
[01:01:55] dedicated s I'll say this is one more
[01:01:57] aspect that could be raised as one
[01:02:00] studies a material fabric of the
[01:02:02] ecclesiastical building from the
[01:02:04] past so Glenn Garrett now has written
[01:02:07] his question he was trying to ask before
[01:02:10] could you say something more about the
[01:02:13] effects of the gold Tess and the role in
[01:02:16] the light
[01:02:19] play they create a vibrant shimmering
[01:02:22] surface those mosaics that are close to
[01:02:26] um the human being in the space like the
[01:02:28] mosaics that are in the vaults of the
[01:02:30] side ises whenever the sun touches them
[01:02:33] because of the way they irregularly they
[01:02:36] form of irregular surface they Shimmer
[01:02:38] when light shines on it and so it
[01:02:40] creates this perceptual experience of
[01:02:43] animation of the inert that had become
[01:02:46] alive now the Dome had a very um so much
[01:02:50] of the reflective capacity of the
[01:02:52] surfaces of hag sopia have been reduced
[01:02:55] because you could see that the upper
[01:02:56] structure which is where the gold Mosaic
[01:02:58] is had lost huge patches of this gold
[01:03:00] Mosaic and nowadays it's covered uh in
[01:03:04] uh in paint and so the paint cannot
[01:03:06] communicate uh cannot perform in a sense
[01:03:09] the same marara effect uh of the gold so
[01:03:13] we're looking at a reduced phenomenon
[01:03:15] and to mention just briefly the um
[01:03:18] reconstructions in the 19th century by
[01:03:21] the fossati brothers probably had
[01:03:23] brought a lot of damage to the mosaics
[01:03:25] because they covered the surface with
[01:03:27] oil paint and as a result they captured
[01:03:30] moisture and when the earthquake
[01:03:32] happened at the end of the 19th century
[01:03:35] this is the moment in which the majority
[01:03:36] of the mosaics that they saw were
[01:03:39] destroyed and that's why when
[01:03:41] starts working in the 30s he could not
[01:03:43] discover again the Pentecost for
[01:03:45] instance in the upper Galleries and so
[01:03:47] on and so forth so I would say paint
[01:03:49] that has taken over the Mosaic um had um
[01:03:54] a detrimental effect and I would say the
[01:03:56] building needs cleaning the marble
[01:03:59] surfaces need cleaning and there should
[01:04:01] be consideration of what ways could be
[01:04:05] used to preserve the gold mosaics as
[01:04:08] well as to think of ways in which the
[01:04:12] surfaces that had lost the mosaics could
[01:04:14] be activated to perform in the
[01:04:16] Aesthetics of that
[01:04:19] space thank you uh Juan deara is asking
[01:04:24] do you know if the solar alignments you
[01:04:26] pointed out in Haya sopia were
[01:04:29] replicated in other Justinian sacred
[01:04:31] buildings we sort of had a similar
[01:04:33] question was it a widespread phenomena
[01:04:36] exploited by Architects at the
[01:04:39] time I don't know so um I would say that
[01:04:43] most of my effort in the preparation of
[01:04:44] this talk was to um complete the
[01:04:47] animations and less so in terms of
[01:04:50] tracking down what other buildings have
[01:04:52] this alignment but the winter solstice
[01:04:55] is significant um ceremonial for Hagia
[01:04:59] sopia because the of the inauguration on
[01:05:02] the 23rd of December and the in
[01:05:04] Christmas so in other words there is
[01:05:06] both the birth of the building and the
[01:05:08] birth of Christ that coincides with that
[01:05:10] and kind of solidifies the interest in
[01:05:13] the um um aligning the building to the
[01:05:16] azimo of the
[01:05:19] sun uh thank you
[01:05:21] alus is asking what do you think about
[01:05:24] the melodic and harmonic similarity
[01:05:27] between the Byzantine chants and
[01:05:29] especially post 15th century Islamic
[01:05:32] chants do you think this is a
[01:05:33] coincidence or do you think there's a
[01:05:35] continuation of a certain tradition
[01:05:38] through the use of spaces like haa
[01:05:42] sopia the way in which I could answer
[01:05:45] this question right now because this is
[01:05:47] not a field I am researching in 15th
[01:05:50] century um ottoman music what I would
[01:05:53] say is that both Christian and Islamic
[01:05:57] cultures share the notion of icons of
[01:05:59] sound and so the way sound triggers the
[01:06:03] imagination and the way um the modes are
[01:06:06] used and the way they're perceived as a
[01:06:09] m microcosm of the macrocosm shared
[01:06:12] sensitivity so this is a question that
[01:06:14] is in front of musicologist and I myself
[01:06:17] will be curious to to read more um but I
[01:06:21] cannot give any Precision but I would
[01:06:22] say there is a new platonic shirt new
[01:06:24] platonic B
[01:06:26] to Sufism and Christianity that um is
[01:06:30] invested in
[01:06:33] music thank you alexay Gibson is asking
[01:06:37] are you familiar with the work of
[01:06:38] Margaret Barker with regard to Temple
[01:06:42] Jerusalem theology to what extent do you
[01:06:44] think the Byzantine Builders of haa
[01:06:46] Sophia were consciously influenced
[01:06:49] Temple uh by Temple
[01:06:53] Traditions I noted down the name I have
[01:06:56] not read the work of Margaret Barker um
[01:07:00] it's within the
[01:07:03] um popular narrative tradition about the
[01:07:05] building of Hagia Sophia Justinian was
[01:07:07] obsessed with um surpassing Solomon so
[01:07:11] clearly there there is a connection
[01:07:13] between the two the two but I cannot
[01:07:15] give a precise answer thank
[01:07:17] you so um Jennifer um LOL is asking uh
[01:07:24] if in better days the haia Sophia is
[01:07:27] reinstated as a welcoming Museum would
[01:07:30] you suggest maintaining this silence or
[01:07:33] perhap perhaps having some sort of
[01:07:35] display such as inviting groups to sing
[01:07:38] chance to make visitors aware of the
[01:07:41] auditory features of the space and not
[01:07:43] just its visual appearance thank you for
[01:07:46] your insights she says
[01:07:50] also that is my dream um I
[01:07:55] I'm supportive the of the idea that this
[01:07:58] is unprecedent um it's outstanding
[01:08:01] Sacred Space and the best way in which a
[01:08:05] museum could work is actually to allow
[01:08:07] that space to be used spiritually and in
[01:08:11] that case I would say that both chant
[01:08:13] and the recitation are important venues
[01:08:17] through which the metaphysical appears
[01:08:19] in that space and meaningful venues for
[01:08:21] both Christians and Muslims so I would
[01:08:23] see that space as the instrument of the
[01:08:26] human voice for chant and for
[01:08:29] recitation that makes one a aware of
[01:08:32] breath and uh and the Divine through
[01:08:35] that where it's PMA or R it's this
[01:08:38] notion of really of the inter
[01:08:42] penetration thank you H Philip
[01:08:46] guer uh is asking I wonder about the
[01:08:50] transcultural life of the haia sopia and
[01:08:53] how and in what ways later otoman
[01:08:56] architecture such as the S and the might
[01:09:01] have specifically taken up spatial and
[01:09:04] sensorial strategies of light and its
[01:09:06] spiritual
[01:09:09] meaning this is an excellent question
[01:09:12] because it has been in my mind as I Was
[01:09:14] preparing the talk and then it is
[01:09:16] already a long talk and I decided to cut
[01:09:18] that part out I was reading um chfar
[01:09:23] effendi who is a 17th century writer who
[01:09:25] wrote a biography of mhmed AA who was
[01:09:29] the architect who built the sultan Ahmed
[01:09:32] mosque and I was interested really the
[01:09:34] reason I'm focusing on the sultan Ahmed
[01:09:36] mosque is because like haui is oriented
[01:09:38] towards the bosor and it is the
[01:09:41] reduction of the ha sopia space to the
[01:09:44] central core of the building to the Kos
[01:09:46] and it is on a square foundation so it
[01:09:49] is the Dome and the semi doomes in a
[01:09:51] sense like um um the um I forget the
[01:09:56] word for it the Irish sign um the green
[01:09:59] flower the green um the P are on the
[01:10:06] ax CL Clover was the thing say Clover so
[01:10:10] why am I saying that is because what I
[01:10:12] as I was reading the U because um chfar
[01:10:16] effendi offers an easis of a mosque
[01:10:19] space it's quite fascinating text and
[01:10:21] what made me realize the difference
[01:10:23] between the hag sopia aesthetic and the
[01:10:26] one that sinan introduces in the Sania
[01:10:29] and the selia eventually his follower um
[01:10:32] mhmed AA into Sultan Ahmed is that there
[01:10:36] is a imp interpenetration of light in
[01:10:39] the mosque at a very low level at the
[01:10:41] level of the floor which doesn't happen
[01:10:42] in hag sopia light in hag Sophia comes
[01:10:45] from above down and so this mystical
[01:10:47] envelope that hag sopia presents it's
[01:10:49] not followed in uh ottoman architecture
[01:10:52] it becomes ottoman architecture is
[01:10:54] modern it's russal
[01:10:56] and it insists on the notion of the
[01:10:59] Sacred Space as a garden which is a very
[01:11:01] old Motif we see it already with the
[01:11:03] first mosques the mosque of Damascus for
[01:11:06] instance and that allowed me um to
[01:11:09] recognize the difference between the
[01:11:10] aesthetic of the sea in Hagia sopia and
[01:11:12] the aesthetic of the Garden in um the
[01:11:15] otoman mosque so I see differences um in
[01:11:20] the um in the structuring of um
[01:11:23] metaphors
[01:11:25] through the architectural elements but
[01:11:28] it is fascinating Y chfar effendi is um
[01:11:32] imbued with Sufi spirituality when one
[01:11:36] reads his text and last but not least as
[01:11:38] a Bulgarian I was struck again I had
[01:11:41] forgotten but sinan is a
[01:11:43] janary um um mhmed AA is a janary as
[01:11:47] well one coming from Serbia the other
[01:11:49] one ID Albania or Bulgaria and it is
[01:11:53] rather uh difficult to cont cont late
[01:11:56] this notion of the greatest architects
[01:11:58] of the Ottoman Empire at the core of
[01:12:00] alterity that these are Christian
[01:12:02] children converted to Islam that then
[01:12:04] produce this masterpieces of world art
[01:12:07] and to me that is the Ottoman Empire it
[01:12:09] is this Paradox of otherness at the
[01:12:12] center of identity so the question is
[01:12:15] should we continue the silencing of
[01:12:17] voices so I'll stop
[01:12:20] here uh so Jared boto uh is asking
[01:12:25] um is there any possibility to
[01:12:28] understand the marble pavement of
[01:12:30] marmara also as an expression of
[01:12:33] Revelation 46 and Before the Throne as
[01:12:36] it were a sea of glass like unto Crystal
[01:12:40] so this is a quote from Revelation
[01:12:48] 46 so this is a
[01:12:52] very interesting question and I think
[01:12:55] I'll answer in terms of um reflectivity
[01:12:59] and mirroring that this notion of the
[01:13:02] Throne of on the sea of glass is again a
[01:13:06] shared Concept in Christianity and Islam
[01:13:09] um the cosmology that uh the Quran
[01:13:12] presents is again that the Divine Throne
[01:13:15] is uh on on the surface of water so it
[01:13:20] basically shows how ha sopia is a mro
[01:13:25] cosm of the microcosm and it it's
[01:13:27] invested in the cosmology in the
[01:13:29] mythology of cosmology and it's shared
[01:13:31] between the two
[01:13:33] religions oh I make it a short answer
[01:13:35] this time
[01:13:36] around um so now there is a longer a
[01:13:40] longer
[01:13:42] um text here and I'll just ask you the
[01:13:46] the question so Jeremy Walton wonders
[01:13:50] what you make of the aestheticization of
[01:13:53] haia sopia on the part of the Neo otoman
[01:13:56] triumphalist you know such as a bash
[01:14:02] um who is basically the director uh of
[01:14:06] the religious Affairs in Turkey
[01:14:08] yeah I've been thinking a lot about this
[01:14:12] issue and I have um I've arrived to
[01:14:15] different answers one of the most recent
[01:14:18] ones that I have been thinking is really
[01:14:19] through Walter Benjamin what happened in
[01:14:23] 2020 was a bad translation
[01:14:26] basically translating the
[01:14:29] um ottoman Conquest in the 21st century
[01:14:34] without the core and the core was really
[01:14:37] a thriving Empire that's not what
[01:14:41] erdogan's gesture is about erdogan's
[01:14:43] gesture is actually about it's hiding
[01:14:47] economic and political instability so it
[01:14:50] is a translation without making the
[01:14:52] original resonant if the mmed
[01:14:55] was about conquest and an incredible
[01:14:58] energy that
[01:14:59] revitalized uh Constantinople this is
[01:15:02] not the case so I think it's an empty
[01:15:04] gesture and it's
[01:15:06] unfortunate because together with it
[01:15:08] it's also a gesture it's
[01:15:12] suppression um another question I I do
[01:15:16] not read also the congratulatory parts
[01:15:18] of the messages because we would take a
[01:15:21] very long time so how do you see the
[01:15:24] bantin values translates to the digital
[01:15:27] era of the 21st century what can we
[01:15:30] learn from it that meaningfully
[01:15:32] corresponds to this new world we're
[01:15:34] living
[01:15:36] in I will say two things uh that digital
[01:15:41] technology had enabled us to travel
[01:15:44] through space in a sense and create this
[01:15:47] world of imagination and the type of
[01:15:50] work that icons of sound had produced
[01:15:52] with Alexander Lingus and Jonathan
[01:15:55] of making us hear the sound of hagya
[01:15:57] Sophia again is fantastic I was the one
[01:16:00] who collected the acoustic samples but
[01:16:02] the knowledge of software and Technology
[01:16:05] of Jonathan abble and the singing and
[01:16:07] the knowledge of music of Alexander
[01:16:09] lingis had really allowed us this
[01:16:11] acoustic space to hear Hagia sopia so
[01:16:15] clearly that has been um amazing feat
[01:16:19] but I'm also an art historian and I
[01:16:21] believe there is the actual building and
[01:16:23] being in the actual building building
[01:16:25] and feeling the light in that space is
[01:16:28] special and it cannot be substituted by
[01:16:31] computer so I'm in between the kaym in a
[01:16:35] sense saying that yes technology could
[01:16:37] allow us to space travel but the
[01:16:40] building is there and it has to be
[01:16:46] experienced uh there's one more question
[01:16:49] um where has the choir been situated at
[01:16:53] around the syn around ambo what is the
[01:16:57] meaning of SOA in this context the place
[01:17:01] the light shines onto at a certain time
[01:17:03] of the day year or symbolic Illumination
[01:17:06] in transition of spaces heading to
[01:17:10] altar so there are several questions
[01:17:13] here
[01:17:16] yeah many singers in that
[01:17:19] space I most of my talk really focuses
[01:17:22] on the main actors these are the they
[01:17:25] the elite singers and their number is 25
[01:17:28] they have one leader and they perform on
[01:17:31] by weekly uh turns 12 at a time they're
[01:17:35] the ones who go up on the amble and the
[01:17:38] amble is situated underneath the Eastern
[01:17:41] rim of the Dome so as their voice
[01:17:43] projects because they sing above the
[01:17:45] head level of the faithful they project
[01:17:48] their voice to the Dome and activate the
[01:17:51] Acoustics of the Dome behind them in the
[01:17:54] Sol um are the uh an agnostic and they
[01:17:58] are in the period of the 7th Century
[01:18:02] they are 160 they perform half of them
[01:18:06] on bi-weekly uh um sessions and so one
[01:18:10] could expect 80 singers from this um uh
[01:18:13] support choir which is not the the main
[01:18:16] leading choir they fill in and then they
[01:18:18] are other choirs of Oran of um orphans
[01:18:22] and of nuns that were interspersed in
[01:18:25] the space it sounds like the women choir
[01:18:27] was in the north aisle um and this is
[01:18:30] from Paul the cantu's um easis but it's
[01:18:34] not stable evidence that we have it's
[01:18:36] not precise evidence that we have and
[01:18:38] last but not least everyone SS in that
[01:18:40] space that there are the Elite pieces
[01:18:43] where the PTY will sing but there is the
[01:18:47] bone of the um this um um of this
[01:18:51] liturgy which is the singing of the
[01:18:52] salod and the Sal the ref brains are
[01:18:55] sung by all which means that a space
[01:18:57] that could hold 16,000 people it is a
[01:19:01] tremendous Sonic energy that is exhaled
[01:19:03] in it so it's complex in terms of who
[01:19:06] sings everyone should be singing the uh
[01:19:09] service is about there are there is no
[01:19:11] audience everyone is a performer
[01:19:14] everyone is implicated the way everyone
[01:19:16] consumes that energy and I'm fascinated
[01:19:19] by this idea um because I find that
[01:19:22] listening to music and moving with music
[01:19:24] and singing is a type of a bodily
[01:19:27] investment that leads to Transcendence
[01:19:29] which being an audience sitting on a
[01:19:31] chair doesn't do the same thing doesn't
[01:19:33] bring it the same
[01:19:37] engagement um another question uh by
[01:19:40] Mary Mary Jane danan have all the
[01:19:43] mosaics been covered in the recent
[01:19:47] conversion I have not been in Hagi sopia
[01:19:52] for I don't know what the conversion had
[01:19:54] down to it I have seen photographs that
[01:19:56] have been published and there they are
[01:19:58] on the the covering with veils is on the
[01:20:01] Eastern apps as well as above the Royal
[01:20:04] doors and in the southwest Vesti um as
[01:20:08] far as I know the Imperial mosaics of
[01:20:12] zoie and Constantine of the kinian are a
[01:20:16] viewable they are not covered and access
[01:20:18] to the galleries is considered as part
[01:20:20] of the museum access and not part of the
[01:20:23] mosque but as I said I am a third party
[01:20:26] communicating this information I have
[01:20:28] not been there I don't know mhm uh John
[01:20:32] capetanakis is asking uh about the
[01:20:36] marble floors shown in the pictures um
[01:20:39] so uh and link to the water and marmara
[01:20:42] SE are these from the ottoman period if
[01:20:45] yes are there Flor remnants from the
[01:20:47] Byzantine era and how do you think these
[01:20:50] would affect light reflection during
[01:20:52] that era
[01:20:55] most of the floor uh and the wall and
[01:20:58] especially the wall revetments are
[01:20:59] Byzantine the sixth Century they are um
[01:21:03] the prian marble um used in the interior
[01:21:07] of course the floor of the koros has
[01:21:10] pieces of later additions but they're
[01:21:12] very clear you could see where new
[01:21:14] material is added so I would say that
[01:21:16] the majority of the floor is
[01:21:21] justinianic uh there is a a uh um now
[01:21:26] there is another question uh you spoke
[01:21:29] about the Interior Space of the Haya
[01:21:31] sopia how do you think about the
[01:21:33] building's meaning both for the larger
[01:21:36] Urban space of which it was a part and
[01:21:39] maybe even uh at night where it might
[01:21:42] have radiated interior light into the
[01:21:45] city Philip Geer is
[01:21:52] asking it's a uh it's a great question
[01:21:55] and um difficult answer because um in
[01:22:01] both in Christianity and Islam um there
[01:22:04] is
[01:22:06] a I I'll start with Christianity ha
[01:22:09] sopia is part of three churches that are
[01:22:12] interconnected the ktia the haini and
[01:22:14] hag sopia they're served by the same
[01:22:17] staff and the cathedral liturgy has
[01:22:19] moments in which there are processions
[01:22:21] in the streets of Constantinople and
[01:22:23] moments where the liturgy celebrated
[01:22:25] inside so for instance the opening of
[01:22:27] the lurgical year on September 1st there
[01:22:30] is a procession to The Forum of
[01:22:32] Constantine and there is a singing from
[01:22:34] the column of Constantine uh in the open
[01:22:36] air under the sky at night under the
[01:22:39] stars and then there are moments of
[01:22:40] Celebration within the space of hag
[01:22:42] sopia so I would say that there is a
[01:22:44] constant um interchange between interior
[01:22:48] exterior and we are less attuned to
[01:22:50] recognizing this so the church is like
[01:22:54] pole it's a polos an axis around which
[01:22:58] Human Action revolves and the church
[01:23:00] also connects this city um and creates a
[01:23:04] community and the same thing could be
[01:23:06] said about the uh Friday mosque and so
[01:23:09] there and within a Friday mosque I think
[01:23:11] there's also another important aspect
[01:23:13] the celebration of night the Lea tader
[01:23:16] for instance and so uh I would say that
[01:23:20] in general and I'm our historian and I'm
[01:23:22] recognizing that we have been much more
[01:23:25] comfortable studying monuments in
[01:23:27] sunlight than studying monuments in
[01:23:29] Moonlight and in artificial light and
[01:23:32] there's something that we need to be
[01:23:34] more attentive from now on to that
[01:23:37] aspect of night there are descriptions
[01:23:38] of Haas sopia at night in the same text
[01:23:41] by Paul the cantry which are very
[01:23:43] evocative they speak about the poly
[01:23:45] Candela with oil lamps as ships at the
[01:23:47] night sky and they also speak about the
[01:23:50] church it's a metaphor as a um faros as
[01:23:55] um um Tower of light I'm missing right
[01:23:58] now the English
[01:24:00] word around which the ships see where
[01:24:04] the shores are and are able to navigate
[01:24:07] it's a metaphor but in general it speaks
[01:24:09] about that space generates its own light
[01:24:12] in the day and at night a lighthouse huh
[01:24:15] lighthous a lighthouse
[01:24:17] yeah uh so a question now we have a
[01:24:21] question here about uh the website that
[01:24:24] used you used in order to hear these
[01:24:26] chant and songs within the
[01:24:29] church uh what was the website U Jake
[01:24:33] wadel is asking yeah so the easiest way
[01:24:38] to find it is if you type in icons of
[01:24:42] sound um and maybe Stanford so icons of
[01:24:47] sound and Stanford would lead you to the
[01:24:49] to our
[01:24:50] website uh my book on hag Sophia has a
[01:24:53] website as well and then the album The
[01:24:56] Lost voices of Hagia sopia are available
[01:25:00] on Nexus as well as
[01:25:05] Spotify and I I will ask now one final
[01:25:08] question I think B because I think we're
[01:25:10] running out of time um could you tell us
[01:25:14] uh some words about the performative
[01:25:16] aspect of the light in relation with
[01:25:18] image and the movement of the clergy
[01:25:21] during the liturgy
[01:25:33] it's a complex question again because
[01:25:35] I'm through my mind uh passing like am I
[01:25:38] going to speak about the herob beicon um
[01:25:41] the Imperial liturgy with the
[01:25:43] ecclesiastical Elite in that space is it
[01:25:46] about the coronation is it about the um
[01:25:49] celebration of Christmas is it about the
[01:25:53] raising of the cross so in other words
[01:25:55] each Feast is
[01:25:56] specific um what I'll answer with the
[01:26:00] information most readily available
[01:26:02] through Thomas whittimore and therefore
[01:26:04] bring the attention back to dber and Ox
[01:26:07] his observation that in the summer
[01:26:09] months there is a moment in the third
[01:26:11] hour in the third lurgical hour in which
[01:26:15] direct sunrays disappear from the
[01:26:17] interior this moment coincides with the
[01:26:20] Eucharist so in other words that the
[01:26:21] space is not dark it's just that it's
[01:26:24] illuminated by a reflected and diffused
[01:26:26] light but you don't have shafts of light
[01:26:28] in that space it's pretty po potent so
[01:26:31] in other words there are moments of
[01:26:33] perfect alignment that happen in this
[01:26:35] interior and it is what I'm becoming
[01:26:38] more and more aware in both um Greek and
[01:26:42] Latin sources is um so much of the
[01:26:45] medieval ceremony focuses on detail that
[01:26:49] the essence of the idea is already in
[01:26:51] the detail and it's like a fractum so if
[01:26:53] you manage to crack in a sense and
[01:26:55] arrive at that understanding you
[01:26:57] recognize the complexity with which this
[01:26:59] ritual is built so this is um one
[01:27:02] example among many the second one the
[01:27:04] alignment and the rise of the sun H in
[01:27:06] the winter solstice how potent uh to
[01:27:09] celebrate um orthos in that space of the
[01:27:13] birth of light the birth of Christ the
[01:27:15] birth of the church so it means that
[01:27:18] every element within that space could be
[01:27:20] looked uh in with close concatenation
[01:27:24] what the ritual practices
[01:27:27] are well thank you bisera thank you for
[01:27:30] a splendid talk Splendid talk truly and
[01:27:34] for for the amazing answers you gave to
[01:27:37] so many questions about all of these
[01:27:39] aspects congratulations again thank you
[01:27:42] and I would like also to thank our staff
[01:27:45] at dton Oaks Judy Lee and Charlotte
[01:27:47] Gutierrez and it for making this happen
[01:27:50] as well and thank you all for for ending
[01:27:54] the event we have had an audience from
[01:27:57] many places around the globe and we are
[01:28:01] looking forward to seeing you again to
[01:28:03] one of our public lectures thank you
[01:28:05] bisera congratulations thanks thank you
[01:28:08] Anna good night Anna sleep well bye