# B2B Marketing Sucks & Can Be Better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNi9uW5rlI4

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[00:40] Hello, and welcome back to the FinTech
[00:42] Takes podcast. Today's episode is a
[00:45] little bit different. Um, you might know
[00:47] this about me, but before getting into
[00:49] content creation, I actually spent a
[00:52] long time, the beginning of my career,
[00:54] working in B2B marketing, specifically
[00:57] in FinTech and financial services. And
[01:00] despite my new role, writing a
[01:02] newsletter and doing a podcast, I've
[01:03] always had a soft spot for B2B marketing
[01:06] and the B2B marketers who do that work.
[01:09] Uh, it's tough job, and it's something
[01:11] that I think, uh, as a discipline, has
[01:14] changed a lot over the last 20 years
[01:16] that I've been doing it, and
[01:18] particularly in the last couple of years
[01:19] as AI has come on the scene. So, I
[01:22] wanted to do an episode focused on just
[01:26] how B2B marketing works, and in
[01:28] particular, why it doesn't always work
[01:30] as well as it could. So, the theme of
[01:32] this episode is B2B marketing sucks, but
[01:35] it doesn't have to. And to figure out
[01:39] why B2B marketing sucks and how it can
[01:42] be better, I wanted to have a bunch of
[01:44] different folks on this episode to
[01:46] basically talk out their experiences
[01:49] working in marketing, in FinTech, in
[01:51] financial services, uh, trying to reach
[01:53] business buyers, trying to influence
[01:55] business buyers, and get their
[01:56] observations about why it's hard, why it
[01:59] doesn't work well, what we could be
[02:00] doing better, what they've done that
[02:01] works extremely well, how they are
[02:03] navigating all the changes that are
[02:05] happening in marketing thanks to AI, and
[02:07] what some of the new tools and
[02:09] capabilities are that are being built to
[02:11] help B2B marketers be more successful.
[02:13] So, we have a bunch of different
[02:14] segments in today's episode. The first
[02:17] segment was really, really fun, uh and
[02:19] pretty long. It was with uh two of my
[02:21] very good friends from the world of
[02:23] fintech content creation, uh Koki
[02:26] Hadjiostergiou, who is the head of
[02:28] vertical marketing at Secure, and
[02:31] creator of a great new newsletter called
[02:33] For the Plot, a newsletter on marketing,
[02:36] branding, and PR in a post-AI world,
[02:39] and Julie VerHage Greenberg, who is the
[02:42] founder of Quinovation, and formerly a
[02:44] co-founder and writer of Fintech Today,
[02:46] and a reporter at Bloomberg.
[02:49] Um Julie and Koki have known each other
[02:51] forever. Uh funnily enough, I tried to
[02:55] uh schedule separate interviews to do
[02:57] two different segments, one with Koki
[02:59] and one with Julie. Those ended up
[03:01] getting scheduled back-to-back, and then
[03:03] they found out that they were scheduled
[03:05] back-to-back, and insisted that we make
[03:06] it one big combined interview, which I
[03:08] was very glad that they did, because uh
[03:11] as great as they are individually, it
[03:13] was so much more fun to talk as a group,
[03:15] uh the three of us about why B2B
[03:17] marketing sucks, the challenges that
[03:20] founders have in telling their own
[03:21] stories,
[03:23] uh the role that great B2B marketing can
[03:26] have in shaping a better story, how to
[03:29] navigate the challenges of marketing in
[03:31] the era of AI,
[03:33] and a lot more. Um
[03:34] action-packed segment. Uh there'll be a
[03:36] couple segments up after this one, but
[03:39] for now, please enjoy Koki and Julie.
[03:42] >> [music]
[03:45] >> This is Fintech Takes, the podcast
[03:48] keeping you in the loop on all the
[03:49] latest fintech trends, news, and ideas.
[03:52] I'm Alex [music] Johnson, creator of the
[03:54] Fintech Takes newsletter, your host, and
[03:57] self-confessed Fintech nerd. Let's go.
[04:03] Okay, well, this was originally supposed
[04:05] to be two different segments with two
[04:07] awesome guests, but then as I figured
[04:09] might happen,
[04:11] uh these two guests who've worked
[04:12] together for a very long time and know
[04:13] each other very well found out they were
[04:15] coming on the podcast uh just
[04:17] coincidentally back to back and now we
[04:19] are doing a combined session. Uh Julie,
[04:21] Koki, thank you so much for coming on.
[04:23] >> Thanks for having us. We prefer to work
[04:25] as one.
[04:26] Um it's it's like a hive mind situation
[04:28] with us.
[04:29] >> [laughter]
[04:30] >> I I have it in my contract. I don't do
[04:32] anything without Koki, so
[04:34] >> Okay, that's I mean it's good to know.
[04:35] That's good to know cuz I I I didn't go
[04:37] through your agents before I like booked
[04:39] you on the show, but if I had, I would
[04:41] have found out that you just don't do
[04:43] things that
[04:43] >> Alex, my agent is Colton Pond. Can you
[04:46] work through him? That'd be great.
[04:47] >> I will do my best. I will do my best,
[04:49] yeah.
[04:50] Colton Colton owes me many things. So,
[04:53] at least he can forgive me on Okay, good
[04:55] good good. So,
[04:56] we know that
[04:58] it's all going to work out just fine.
[05:00] The focus of this episode is B2B
[05:04] marketing and in particular
[05:06] sort of channeling Koki here. I want to
[05:08] talk about why B2B marketing sucks and
[05:11] how it perhaps could be better and
[05:15] it's interesting actually because I
[05:16] think
[05:17] all three of us have at various times
[05:20] worked as both content creators and also
[05:24] B2B marketers. So, we've sat on both
[05:26] sides of the fence and
[05:28] um I think have seen things that have
[05:31] worked well. I think we've seen lots of
[05:33] things that haven't worked as well. And
[05:36] so, I want to talk about just what
[05:38] you've observed over the course of your
[05:40] career about B2B marketing and
[05:44] you know, Koki, working off of your
[05:46] wonderful newsletter, which we will uh
[05:49] drop a link to in the show notes. Uh I
[05:51] wanted to start by talking about uh B2B
[05:54] marketing's boring problem, because um
[05:58] a lot of B2B marketing uh
[06:00] is just so dry and boring that it feels
[06:03] like it's from a different universe than
[06:05] B2C marketing,
[06:07] uh which is funny because despite the
[06:10] fact that it one is B2B and one is B2C,
[06:13] fundamentally, it's still like humans
[06:15] communicating with other humans. And
[06:17] yet, somehow, like in a B2B context, we
[06:20] forget that like a human being has to
[06:23] pick this up, read about it, care,
[06:26] listen, engage. Like, you're it's like
[06:28] it's the same people on the other side.
[06:30] It's not like robots listening to this
[06:32] or making, you know, buying or
[06:34] procurement decisions. So, uh Cookie, I
[06:36] want to start with you. Like, why does
[06:38] B2B marketing have a boring problem?
[06:41] >> It's Okay, first of all, I just want to
[06:43] take a look at my life for a second
[06:44] here. Um I get to be on a podcast with
[06:47] my two favorite people where I'm being
[06:48] encouraged to complain for an hour.
[06:50] >> Yes.
[06:50] >> This is like the highlight of my
[06:51] existence. I don't think it gets better
[06:53] than this. This is the end of my career.
[06:54] I retire after today.
[06:55] >> Excellent.
[06:56] >> Um
[06:56] >> I'll tell Colton.
[06:57] >> Yeah, please do. Uh someone someone
[06:59] ought to. Um
[07:00] it's so boring. And
[07:02] it your point, it's that's the whole
[07:04] thing, right? Like, 80% of decisions are
[07:06] made emotionally.
[07:08] Everything else we do is rational air
[07:09] cover. Every single other thing we do.
[07:11] And marketing's job is solely to make
[07:13] you feel something. We have no other
[07:15] job. There's like
[07:17] the only thing that converts is emotion,
[07:19] right? And then somehow,
[07:21] the second we're faced with like we need
[07:23] to talk like a business and be a
[07:24] business, we get not just super boring,
[07:26] but like
[07:28] we're almost speaking in tongues. Like
[07:31] instead of just saying the thing we
[07:32] mean, we end up saying like all this
[07:35] extraneous crap. And like
[07:37] I can't figure out what I'm supposed to
[07:39] think about anything when it's presented
[07:41] to me in that context. And all's like
[07:43] very You know what I'm talking about,
[07:44] like the very specific businessy writing
[07:46] where it's like, "Oh, yes, we're going
[07:48] to say leverage a lot and synergy."
[07:50] >> I I was just going to say
[07:52] >> of this mean?
[07:53] >> Enable, empower, like we could probably
[07:55] rattle off like a dictionary of like B2B
[07:58] business terms that you're supposed to
[07:59] use.
[08:00] >> Yeah.
[08:00] >> Yeah, well, and it's funny because
[08:01] [laughter]
[08:02] when I And Julie, I want to get your
[08:03] perspective on this, like when I started
[08:05] uh writing in like a B2B marketing
[08:07] context, I basically learned that there
[08:09] were words you could say that would make
[08:12] you sound more like authoritative or
[08:15] smart or like Yeah, yeah, like there are
[08:17] these words that you could say that were
[08:19] like magic words where it's like, "I
[08:20] don't really know what this means. They
[08:22] don't really know what this means, but
[08:23] we've all just sort of agreed to accept
[08:25] that like this is like the lingua franca
[08:27] of how like B2B marketing works." And I
[08:30] mean, Julie, you have a slightly
[08:31] different background cuz you I think
[08:32] started off more on the reporter side,
[08:34] but like it's the same thing, right?
[08:35] Like there's a a common language and
[08:37] structure you're supposed to follow, and
[08:39] if you do, no one gets in trouble.
[08:42] >> Yeah, see, I think maybe it's because of
[08:43] my reporter background. Maybe it's
[08:45] because I'm friends with Cokie, but I
[08:47] kind of like tried to avoid those words
[08:50] and things and like actually make it
[08:51] sound more human and being kind of like
[08:53] funny in the post and stuff. It's also I
[08:55] have a job ghostwriting for people
[08:57] because B2B marketing is so bad. So, you
[09:00] have to make it so like the CEOs,
[09:02] founders, whoever, their content isn't
[09:05] bad even though their company content
[09:06] often sucks.
[09:08] >> Yeah. Yeah, well, I wanted to talk about
[09:09] that actually because um one of the
[09:12] barriers, I think, to great B2B
[09:14] marketing is that um you know, you're
[09:17] you're working with a company, and
[09:19] Julie, you do this every day. Um and you
[09:22] get connected with someone at the
[09:23] company who's like brilliant, right?
[09:25] Like they they work in the trenches of
[09:27] this problem, they understand it really
[09:28] well, they talk to customers all the
[09:30] time. Like and you're talking with them,
[09:31] you're like, "This is amazing." And then
[09:34] um you're You're "Oh, hey, so like maybe
[09:36] you should write a blog post or
[09:38] whatever." I remember doing this a lot
[09:39] when I worked in marketing where I was
[09:40] like trying to like get executives or
[09:43] operators from companies I worked at to
[09:45] be like, "Hey, we need content. Like,
[09:47] could you like write a blog or go on a
[09:49] podcast or whatever?" And it was so
[09:51] foreign to them. I mean, you would have
[09:54] thought like I remember talking to an
[09:55] executive who would like routinely meet
[09:59] with like the CEOs of the largest banks
[10:01] in the country. And I was like, "Hey,
[10:03] like what if you wrote a thing?" And
[10:05] they were like, "A blank piece of paper.
[10:06] I couldn't possibly face down a blank
[10:09] piece of paper and create content." So,
[10:10] it feels like one of the biggest
[10:12] barriers to start with is just like
[10:14] content creation for people who don't do
[10:16] it on a regular basis is a huge lift.
[10:19] And I feel like that's one of the
[10:20] things, Julie, that drives such a robust
[10:22] market for ghostwriting is just like the
[10:24] mechanical lift of like creating content
[10:26] on a consistent basis. It's hard if
[10:28] you've never done it.
[10:30] >> Yeah, I would say lots of times it ends
[10:31] up being There's some executives that
[10:33] love just like sending a bunch of notes
[10:35] over. Cuz like, if you tell them to just
[10:37] write up notes or whatever, then that's
[10:38] fine.
[10:39] >> Sure.
[10:39] >> Um or voice memo. Um that also has
[10:42] worked. But, I have seen it shift
[10:44] probably in the last like 3 to 6 months
[10:48] where they'll use AI and put a bunch of
[10:50] notes and stuff in there and give some
[10:51] prompts and then send it to me.
[10:53] >> Yeah.
[10:53] >> It's like, you know, 50 to 60% of the
[10:55] way there. I got to go tweak some things
[10:57] and like usually it's changing the
[10:59] headline and the intro and fixing words
[11:01] that like of course they wouldn't say
[11:03] and things like that. But, then actually
[11:05] is it's making it so people are more um
[11:08] they don't instantly like cringe when
[11:09] you ask them to write something. Like,
[11:11] take anything like that. Whereas before
[11:13] it's like, "Ah, like
[11:15] it's just I don't My KPIs aren't
[11:16] measured on that. And like, this is
[11:18] going to take so much time away. Like,
[11:20] is it really worth it?" And la-da-da.
[11:22] And now it's like, "Well, you know, it
[11:24] might It's a lot easier to do something
[11:26] like that." So, I don't get as much
[11:28] pushback anymore, which is really nice.
[11:31] >> That that is good. I mean, I do I do
[11:33] feel like the AI has sort of become an
[11:35] on-ramp for that blank piece of paper
[11:37] problem a bit cuz that's terrifying,
[11:39] honestly, to a lot of people who don't
[11:41] write on a regular basis. I mean, I'm
[11:43] still scared of a blank piece of paper
[11:44] when I'm like sitting down and I'm like,
[11:45] "Oh god, I hate
[11:46] >> you're not.
[11:47] >> I hate myself." No, really, truly, like
[11:49] I
[11:49] I I I feel like I feel like you get used
[11:52] to it. You get used to the fear and you
[11:53] sort of can like push past it, but like
[11:55] every time I sit down with a blank piece
[11:57] of paper, I'm like, "This is not going
[11:58] to make sense. I'm an idiot. very It's a
[12:01] very intimidating experience. So, I do
[12:02] think AI as an on-ramp to get past that
[12:06] initial fear is useful, but then, Koki,
[12:08] the flip side is
[12:09] AI just magnifies the we all are talking
[12:12] the same language using the same words
[12:14] like empower and leverage and synergy.
[12:16] Like Like that's what AI was built for
[12:18] was to magnify that problem.
[12:20] >> AI was built to magnify anything, right?
[12:22] Like AI's real skill is not like
[12:26] creation. It's uh like multiplying. It's
[12:30] It's It's a multiplier. That's what it
[12:32] does. It's a force multiplier. So, it's
[12:34] like it can take your absolute crap and
[12:36] make more crap. That's fine.
[12:38] Uh
[12:39] Equally, it can take something good and
[12:42] give you something good enough
[12:44] with some tailoring. I also think people
[12:46] forget about the tailoring element. Like
[12:48] go back, edit, argue with it, literally
[12:51] defend your position, make sure it gets
[12:53] what you're trying to get to.
[12:55] >> And I never do one prompt and then no
[12:57] edits afterwards. That's guaranteed AI
[13:01] [ __ ] on the internet and people are
[13:02] going to know right away.
[13:04] >> No, well, and I mean, it's it's funny
[13:06] because the more the more sort of AI
[13:08] initial output you read, the easier I
[13:10] think it is for everyone to sort of
[13:11] recognize like that's AI. Like that's
[13:13] how AI talks. That's how it reasons.
[13:15] That's how it thinks.
[13:17] Uh and like the easy one is like go back
[13:19] and edit out all the m dashes, but like,
[13:21] you know, it's hard for me. Like I use m
[13:23] dashes, you know, just I was using m
[13:25] dashes before AI came out.
[13:27] It is horrible. I love m dashes. I
[13:29] >> to use a semicolon. I feel like that's a
[13:31] personal attack on me.
[13:32] >> [laughter]
[13:32] >> Right. Right.
[13:33] >> I hate semicolons. I don't want to use
[13:35] that, but now what options do I have?
[13:38] >> That's the only other thing you can
[13:39] replace it with.
[13:39] >> it two sentences or change it. Two
[13:41] sentences, I'm I'm lucky I went I like I
[13:44] grew up and went to the school. My high
[13:46] school was like insane for English and
[13:48] writing. Like insane. I I think you can
[13:50] tell because I'm very flowery, right?
[13:52] >> going to say that does that does vibe
[13:53] with you, yeah.
[13:54] >> It It adds up, but like
[13:57] we got like abused with the comma. So I
[13:59] know how to use way too many commas and
[14:01] I abuse that now. But like the M dash
[14:04] used to make it very clear, make it very
[14:06] easy to create a thought. Anyway, I'm
[14:08] very upset about this.
[14:09] >> No, it was such like an elegant
[14:10] wonderful way of like yeah, I I it was a
[14:13] tool I used in the toolbox a lot and now
[14:14] AI has ruined it. Thank you, AI. Um the
[14:17] other thing Koki that you wrote about in
[14:19] your newsletter when you were talking
[14:20] about why B2B content sucks so much is
[14:24] um the difference between appearing
[14:26] useful and being useful.
[14:28] >> drives me crazy.
[14:29] >> I want to dig into that cuz I thought
[14:30] that was a really good way to articulate
[14:33] like the difference. I mean, I and like
[14:35] Twitter is the worst. I try to stay off
[14:37] as much as I can cuz it's like just
[14:38] overrun. LinkedIn is the same. Like it's
[14:40] overrun with like things trying to
[14:42] appear useful. But this idea that like
[14:46] >> Yeah, I mean and it's it's a very it's a
[14:48] very particular kind of slot because
[14:50] it's like
[14:51] >> I would like to offer a thought that
[14:54] might be useful to someone else, but
[14:58] it's like laundered through this like
[15:00] complex like mental mechanism where it
[15:03] ends up being this thing that doesn't
[15:04] take a position. It doesn't say anything
[15:06] controversial. It doesn't say anything
[15:08] that anyone would disagree with. It
[15:10] doesn't like offer It doesn't take any
[15:12] risks, I guess is what I notice about it
[15:14] and what I found and I'm sure both of
[15:17] you have sort of experienced the same as
[15:20] like the content that resonates with
[15:21] people are the ones where like you are
[15:23] sort of staking out a very unusual or
[15:28] sort of risky position. And you know,
[15:31] you might come back the next day and go,
[15:32] you know what? I thought about it and I
[15:33] got feedback from people and I think I
[15:34] was 100% wrong and here's why and like
[15:37] like this this slop sort of appearing
[15:39] useful but not being useful content.
[15:41] There's no like risk or opinion ventured
[15:44] at all. Like what what have you observed
[15:46] about reading all of this slop that sort
[15:49] of like
[15:49] >> Well, why do people fall into this trap?
[15:51] Obviously AI
[15:53] makes it worse, makes it easier to fall
[15:54] into it, but people were falling into
[15:55] this trap before AI, too. What is this
[15:58] appearing useful trap?
[16:00] >> Um I think it's the nature of the
[16:02] marketing org itself. I think the
[16:04] marketing org is fundamentally set up to
[16:06] fail in a lot of ways. And like some
[16:08] unfixable ways and some that are like we
[16:10] could tailor. So I have this whole I
[16:12] think we kind of alluded to it, but I
[16:14] have this whole thing on the head of
[16:15] content.
[16:16] Um
[16:17] the head of content is a brutal job to
[16:20] hire for because it's like
[16:22] they're now their mortgage is dependent
[16:24] on useful content and any risk, anything
[16:27] perceived as risk impacts their bottom
[16:29] line. Like it it impacts their home
[16:31] life. Like it could emit their children,
[16:33] right? So of course you're not going to
[16:34] put anything on the line. So
[16:37] Step one is like that hire is often
[16:40] somebody who went to got a degree in
[16:42] English or journalism, like did
[16:44] something for a few years, realized they
[16:46] wanted to make money and came to a tech
[16:48] company to be head of content, right?
[16:49] >> Yep.
[16:49] >> Uh the recent company excluded.
[16:51] The the way to actually hire this is to
[16:54] do it one of two ways, right? It's to
[16:57] take somebody internally and make them
[16:59] the content person without that actually
[17:01] being their real job. So it's someone
[17:03] internally who like really knows the
[17:05] product, really is locked in, right? You
[17:06] said you said earlier like these really
[17:08] brilliant people who are like terrified
[17:09] of the blank page. Help give them
[17:11] someone to build the structure by which
[17:13] they can they can like become something
[17:17] of a voice box, right?
[17:19] The other way to do this is to hire
[17:21] someone who has
[17:22] literally no interest in whether they
[17:24] live or die at the company.
[17:26] >> [laughter]
[17:27] >> Other than their own like, "Oh, it'd be
[17:29] nice to do well here."
[17:30] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[17:30] >> So, this is where someone like Julie
[17:31] makes sense, right? Like, if if Julie
[17:34] were to leave any job today
[17:36] at all,
[17:38] it wouldn't matter. She's still Julie.
[17:39] She already had the reputation, she
[17:41] already had the voice, she already had
[17:43] the
[17:44] she already had the credibility, and she
[17:45] already had the respect of the industry,
[17:47] right? Like, so
[17:48] it's actually I talk about this in one
[17:50] of my newsletters. Like, Simon Taylor is
[17:51] actually the perfect example of this.
[17:54] What he did for So you said sardine,
[17:55] what he's doing at Tempo now, that's
[17:57] exactly right. Like, Simon doesn't have
[17:59] to fear being fired because he's already
[18:00] proved his value outside.
[18:02] >> Right, right.
[18:02] >> Which means that he can actually create
[18:04] things that are interesting and
[18:04] engaging. That's That's kind of where
[18:06] I'm at. And like, I have more to say on
[18:09] the more modern marketing org, so I'm
[18:10] just going to keep going.
[18:11] >> Yeah, go.
[18:12] >> The other thing here
[18:13] >> [laughter]
[18:13] >> is like, a lot of marketing orgs are set
[18:16] up for motion over movement today. What
[18:18] I mean by that is like, just get shots
[18:20] on the board. And I actually tend to
[18:22] agree with that as like
[18:24] a thing that we should be doing. And
[18:27] Colton Colton's belief here, and he's
[18:30] spoken about this widely, is like, get
[18:32] points on the board and tie everything
[18:34] to revenue or else nothing matters at
[18:36] all. I'm with him on that. But we can
[18:39] get lost in the sauce on, too. Like,
[18:41] >> Yeah.
[18:41] >> he's he's very like, you know, he's very
[18:44] like, I'm going to do things and things
[18:45] are going to move, and he's right, and
[18:46] he does, and he's incredible.
[18:47] >> Totally.
[18:49] >> Equally, we can get like a we get lost
[18:51] in the sauce on output, and
[18:53] it ends up kind of looking like you're
[18:56] proving you're doing something versus
[18:57] actually making an impact.
[18:59] So, you end up with like super output
[19:02] heavy, right? That's just
[19:05] it's not actually moving the needle.
[19:07] It's not actually changing anything or
[19:09] the way that we think about the brand or
[19:11] whatever.
[19:11] >> Well, and and to add a to add to that
[19:14] cuz I think it's a really good point.
[19:15] It's like so many of that like head of
[19:17] content person's job, like they're
[19:19] measured on how many blog posts did you
[19:21] publish this quarter? And it's like
[19:22] that's a terrible metric. Like like the
[19:24] metric and it's the reason this is hard
[19:26] is cuz it's hard to measure these
[19:27] things, but like what we're actually
[19:28] aiming for is did you change anyone's
[19:30] mind over the last 6 months? And like
[19:33] this is a small industry. If you changed
[19:35] one person's mind, that probably pays
[19:37] for all the work it took to do that,
[19:38] right? Like so there there is this
[19:40] element of content marketing, the value
[19:43] you actually want out of it is this very
[19:46] asymmetric, did you influence a very
[19:48] small number of people to think in a
[19:50] slightly different way? But that's A
[19:52] really hard to measure, it's really hard
[19:54] to do, and it takes like sustained
[19:57] effort over time. And going back to
[19:59] something you were saying earlier, Koki,
[20:01] I mean the the thing about like the sort
[20:04] of process versus results thing, and
[20:07] Simon's a good example of this, Julie's
[20:09] a good example of this, you're a good
[20:10] example of this. Like part of the thing
[20:13] is also
[20:14] you kind of need to be embarrassed if
[20:17] you put out something bad or cringey.
[20:19] Like I don't want my peers in the
[20:21] industry to judge this, and so I'm going
[20:23] to go back and work hard on this. Like I
[20:25] can't tell you the number of times
[20:26] >> content, like you have to feel the
[20:28] cringe. So I think about this a lot.
[20:29] Like with content, a lot of people get
[20:31] put off. You were saying earlier it's a
[20:32] blank page, but it's this other thing,
[20:34] too. It's like
[20:35] it feels cringey to create content cuz
[20:37] you just don't want to be that guy in
[20:38] your friend group that like your real
[20:40] friends in the real world are like, "Oh
[20:41] god, there's Alex again." Do you know
[20:42] what I mean?
[20:43] >> Right, right, right. Well, it's
[20:44] embarrassing. Like when I tell people in
[20:45] the real world I have a podcast, they're
[20:46] like, "Really?" And you're like, "Yeah,
[20:48] but it's it's okay, you know."
[20:50] Are [laughter] you okay?
[20:51] >> Yeah.
[20:51] >> Yeah. You I think that as in the in the
[20:53] parlance of the kids, you have to
[20:54] embrace the cringe to be truly based.
[20:57] >> There you go.
[20:58] >> You have to really lean into it. Like
[21:00] >> I didn't know we had someone from Gen Z
[21:01] on the podcast. That's fantastic, Koki.
[21:03] Well done.
[21:04] >> It's just my face is very young.
[21:06] Um sponsored by my doctor. Hello.
[21:08] >> There you go.
[21:08] >> Um yeah, I know. I just think like
[21:10] there's this there's this there's this
[21:12] other element too like where there's
[21:13] this this cringe factor that I actually
[21:16] think is very powerful and very good.
[21:18] And being wrong. You talked about that
[21:20] earlier, too. Be wrong publicly
[21:21] constantly.
[21:22] >> Well, I mean and and Julie like the
[21:24] other thing I think that ties into this
[21:26] and this goes back to the ghost writing
[21:27] thing, too, is a lot of companies would
[21:29] prefer to publish content published by
[21:32] the company, right? So, it's like here's
[21:34] a blog post You always see this with
[21:35] like the byline, right? Like we
[21:37] published a blog and the blog was
[21:38] written by company. And you're like,
[21:40] okay, was it though? It wasn't. It was
[21:41] written by a person and there's this
[21:43] tension I think between
[21:46] developing content and a brand that
[21:48] accrues to an individual versus to a
[21:51] company. And I think that tension is
[21:53] really interesting because like if it
[21:56] goes to the company, obviously in some
[21:58] ways that's good for the company, right?
[21:59] Like if this person leaves, we're not
[22:01] screwed. Um it allows us to sort of
[22:04] share many different perspectives all
[22:06] sort of blended together under the
[22:07] company's headline. But at the same
[22:09] time, if you publish stuff like under
[22:11] the company, it doesn't feel personal.
[22:13] It doesn't have any opinion. It doesn't
[22:15] give someone to like follow. And I think
[22:17] to this point we've been making, it
[22:19] doesn't create like any accountability.
[22:21] Like if the company publishes it, like
[22:23] who do I yell at or disagree with or
[22:25] send an email to? Like there is no like
[22:27] accountability. So, how like in your
[22:29] experience, how do companies sort of
[22:31] balance should this content be published
[22:33] under a person's name? If so, who?
[22:35] Should it just be our company blog and
[22:37] we just publish every month? Like what's
[22:38] what's the balance there?
[22:40] >> Well, I would Do people really pay that
[22:42] much attention to what the byline is on
[22:44] there?
[22:44] >> I don't know.
[22:45] >> like a tech blog or a case study, maybe.
[22:48] Tech blogs
[22:49] >> so.
[22:50] >> It's like diving into things. I never
[22:52] look at who writes it.
[22:53] >> Well,
[22:54] on social, though, don't you? Like if
[22:57] it's
[22:58] >> Yeah.
[22:58] >> I mean on a blog post, I never look at
[23:00] the byline unless it's like a tech blog
[23:02] that I'm kind of curious. Like, okay,
[23:04] like how long has this person been in
[23:06] this role or I don't know, something
[23:08] like that.
[23:09] >> Well, let me ask you this question
[23:10] though, because I think the flip side to
[23:12] that is when I'm reading like a blog
[23:14] post or anything published by a company,
[23:17] I I sort of am like in two different
[23:19] minds as I'm starting to read it and
[23:20] then I sort of settle into one or
[23:21] another, which is does this sound like
[23:24] it was written by an individual or does
[23:25] this sound like it was written by a
[23:27] company? And obviously like if it was if
[23:29] it sounds like it was written by a
[23:30] company, it was still written by an
[23:31] individual human, but like all the
[23:33] humanness has been sanded off of it and
[23:35] I think to your point, I know lots of
[23:38] FinTech companies that are great at B2B
[23:40] marketing
[23:41] and one of the things they do really
[23:42] well is even when they publish a blog
[23:44] post under the company
[23:46] I'll give you I actually wanted to ask
[23:47] you about that.
[23:48] Don't don't No, you can't say Socure,
[23:50] that's cheating.
[23:51] >> [laughter]
[23:51] >> Um
[23:51] >> Okay, Socure is what I say.
[23:53] >> Uh yeah, you can say that one. Um like
[23:55] like I was I was I've been doing some
[23:57] research into Ramp recently and one of
[23:58] the things I think Ramp does really well
[24:00] among others is like everything they
[24:03] publish
[24:04] feels like it was written by a human and
[24:06] like the word choice and everything just
[24:08] feels
[24:09] >> job, too.
[24:09] >> Stripe does a great job. Like there's a
[24:11] set of companies
[24:11] >> on Stripe, sorry. That's my unpopular
[24:13] opinion.
[24:14] >> do a good job in all of it, but I think
[24:15] like the Stripe Sessions is really good
[24:17] and then their Reddit presence is really
[24:20] good.
[24:21] >> Mhm.
[24:21] >> And obviously the Dev Docs were like
[24:23] kind of the whole thing forever, right?
[24:24] Like that was the thing.
[24:25] >> Yeah, maybe they're more developer
[24:27] oriented. Maybe for for people not in
[24:29] the developer community they don't.
[24:30] Okay, that's
[24:31] >> Yeah, they have a good tech blog. But I
[24:33] was like whenever with with companies
[24:36] that I work with, I tend to have it
[24:37] where the person's on there. The only
[24:39] time I want it is if it's like kind of a
[24:41] one-off and then
[24:43] if like their WordPress doesn't have it
[24:45] where you can add in just a random name
[24:47] instead and then you just say company or
[24:49] put my name on it or something, but most
[24:51] of the time like if the founder wrote it
[24:53] or I wrote it or
[24:56] someone else at the team wrote it that
[24:58] writes a fair amount I I put their name
[25:00] on it.
[25:01] >> Yeah. I think that makes sense cuz I
[25:03] just think like that that sort of seems
[25:05] directionally where people want to go
[25:08] and what they're looking for. The other
[25:09] thing that I wanted to ask you both
[25:11] about is and you Koki wrote about this
[25:13] in your newsletter
[25:15] I'm trying to think of a not horribly
[25:17] mean way of saying this but um
[25:19] >> Just say it in whatever [ __ ] way I
[25:21] obviously said it.
[25:22] >> [laughter]
[25:23] >> Cuz we can assume whatever I said was
[25:25] worse it's than what's going to come out
[25:26] of your mouth.
[25:27] >> I I yeah I'll give you the the slightly
[25:28] nicer version.
[25:30] Founders are terrible at telling their
[25:31] own story.
[25:32] >> Yeah, they are.
[25:33] >> They're terrible at it and
[25:34] >> is particularly bad at it?
[25:36] >> Mhm.
[25:36] >> This guy.
[25:36] >> That one right there.
[25:38] >> I was real bad head to toe at it.
[25:41] >> Well, so explain why because I I run
[25:44] into founders all the time I spend a ton
[25:45] of time talking to them and they'll kind
[25:47] of like tell you the story or they'll
[25:49] kind of like like position themselves
[25:52] and their story in the overall framework
[25:54] of like a narrative and a plot like
[25:56] trying to get you to care about it and
[26:00] I I and I frequently will tell
[26:02] founders and companies this when I'm
[26:04] sort of reviewing what they've written
[26:06] or what they're trying to get me to
[26:07] write about when they send me like a
[26:08] press release or whatever and it's like
[26:10] um I'm not your mom
[26:12] and so while she is probably very proud
[26:14] of you for this specific thing I don't
[26:16] care at all and it's so funny to me the
[26:18] number of times that I get a story from
[26:20] a founder or a company where it would
[26:23] work really well if the audience was
[26:24] their mom and they're proud of
[26:25] everything they do but if it's not them
[26:27] no one is going to care and then you
[26:30] kind of push on it you're like well but
[26:31] like what about this or why why this and
[26:34] you can push them to get to a a version
[26:36] of the story that has more sort of broad
[26:39] narrative interest in a plot and that
[26:40] actually is interesting cuz most of
[26:42] what's getting built in the space is
[26:43] interesting and does have a story
[26:45] attached to it but they seem utterly
[26:47] unable to like divorce their own
[26:48] personal experience building the company
[26:51] from the narrative that's going to
[26:52] resonate in the market. Like, why does
[26:53] that happen?
[26:55] >> Okay, so there's three There's three
[26:56] things here. The first is the two in the
[26:58] weeds problem, right? Like, you're just
[27:00] too in it. You can't zoom out. You're
[27:02] like, "Oh, but this, but this, but this,
[27:04] but this." It's why the hardest part, in
[27:06] my opinion, of being a founder, an
[27:07] early-stage founder,
[27:09] I will clarify. The hardest part for me
[27:11] of being an early-stage founder was the
[27:12] one-liner. What does the company do?
[27:14] >> Yeah.
[27:15] >> Because I had to zoom out, and it was so
[27:16] hard to zoom out when you're like
[27:18] I mean, in the case of Tally for me,
[27:20] right? We invented something that did
[27:22] not exist before. First of all, you're
[27:24] wrapped up in that. Your ego's wrapped
[27:25] up in that. But then you're like so deep
[27:27] in it, like all the different moving
[27:28] pieces of what it does and what it could
[27:30] do.
[27:30] >> Yeah.
[27:31] >> It's really hard to just back up and be
[27:32] like, "Hey, this is a trustless hiring
[27:34] software that works on a blockchain."
[27:36] Like, really hard to zoom out. And then
[27:38] you come up with something like that,
[27:39] and you're like, "That's not even very
[27:40] good." Do you see what I mean?
[27:42] >> [laughter]
[27:42] >> Well, there was some There was some
[27:43] buzzwords in there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[27:45] >> Yeah, you like those? Yeah, those ones
[27:47] are on the house.
[27:48] >> I well I well and and maybe just to add
[27:50] a point in there, there's a difference
[27:52] between the one-liner for VCs, which is
[27:54] like how many buzzwords can I jam into
[27:56] one sentence
[27:57] >> three. Exactly.
[27:58] >> Mhm.
[27:59] >> So, that's number one, you're too in it.
[28:00] Number two is that the VC story you
[28:02] tell, the founding story you tell to a
[28:04] VC, is inherently different and needs to
[28:05] be.
[28:06] For most founders, and I've done a lot
[28:09] of fundraising coaching, obviously. I
[28:10] live with the fundraising coach in
[28:12] fintech and and basically every
[28:14] industry. You should go talk to him.
[28:15] >> Yeah.
[28:16] >> His name's Matt. He's a pain in the ass.
[28:18] Um
[28:19] but he like
[28:22] you when you tell a VC like, "This is
[28:24] how I came to found the company," you
[28:25] need to make it sound inevitable. And
[28:27] that's really good storytelling in that
[28:29] room.
[28:30] >> Mhm.
[28:30] >> You're like "Oh, okay. Yeah, I actually
[28:32] worked at a
[28:33] I worked at Boston Consulting Group, and
[28:35] then I started my own consultancy out of
[28:37] spite after getting fired from a smaller
[28:39] consultancy, stole all their clients,
[28:41] and not and changed my financial
[28:43] situation forever. So, I started a uh
[28:46] that that people could consult more
[28:48] easily, trustlessly, safely, and paid
[28:51] well.
[28:52] >> Mhm.
[28:52] >> All through the internet, inevitable.
[28:54] Which for those of you listening, that
[28:55] is that is the story. And then there's
[28:58] this third thing where they try to take
[29:01] the VC inevitability story, which again,
[29:03] by the way, very good for fundraising.
[29:05] >> Yeah.
[29:06] >> And they
[29:07] try to implant it as like a larger thing
[29:09] that they're like doing out loud, and it
[29:11] often comes off as the extremely
[29:13] performative LinkedIn post.
[29:15] I don't have to name names. You know who
[29:18] I'm talking about. There are a number of
[29:20] beloved founders in our industry who
[29:22] tell these founder stories that make you
[29:25] want to lay in traffic and scream at a
[29:28] hapless god.
[29:30] Cuz you're like, I deserve better than
[29:32] to have my eyes touch this. And the
[29:35] problem with it is this this element of
[29:37] like, I am performing hard work. I am
[29:40] performing all these things. I'm
[29:42] performing an interest in something that
[29:44] didn't exist. I always make the joke
[29:46] like, when I was five, I noticed a big
[29:48] problem of SMB loan onboarding and
[29:50] origination. Right. And you're like,
[29:53] what?
[29:54] That doesn't make any sense. So there's
[29:55] this there's this performative element
[29:57] of like, how do how are we
[29:59] performing
[30:01] fortune falling our way while also
[30:03] ignoring the big part of it, which is
[30:05] luck and timing.
[30:06] >> Totally.
[30:06] >> Like there's a level of humility that
[30:08] isn't neces- it doesn't necessarily
[30:10] nestle there comfortably. So it's like
[30:14] it's kind of missing, and you end up
[30:15] with this like
[30:17] uh this kind of stuff that
[30:19] Matt and I read it back and forth to
[30:21] each other just to keep each other
[30:22] entertained. Like, some people read love
[30:25] poems, Matt and I read really really bad
[30:26] LinkedIn content to each other all the
[30:28] time. Uh
[30:29] >> Romantic.
[30:29] >> You know, it it keeps the love alive.
[30:32] >> [laughter]
[30:32] >> It's you know, it's tough out there.
[30:33] >> Yeah.
[30:34] >> But we read it back and forth to each
[30:35] other all the time because and it it
[30:37] always has the exact same texture, a
[30:39] quality, like
[30:41] it's almost like this the sound of when
[30:43] you tap your nails on something that
[30:45] looks like it's going to be metal but
[30:47] isn't.
[30:47] >> Mhm.
[30:48] >> And it almost caves underneath you. Like
[30:50] it's like there's the same
[30:53] experience of like this
[30:55] it has no backing, it has no backbone,
[30:57] it has no
[31:00] it has no formidability, you know?
[31:02] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[31:03] >> It just is and it's terrible and it
[31:05] makes me physically ill. Not to be
[31:07] dramatic.
[31:07] >> No, no. I mean to to add to your point,
[31:10] I mean one of the things that I always
[31:12] notice is in the in the room with the
[31:14] VCs, you pitch the inevitability and the
[31:18] sort of like this is going to be a great
[31:20] business story. And then when you take
[31:22] that story out of the boardroom with the
[31:24] VCs and you tell it to the market, you
[31:26] sand off the business part because it
[31:28] doesn't sound good cuz it sounds greedy
[31:30] and you sort of reframe it as like this
[31:32] is really important for society. And
[31:35] like I think that founders when they
[31:36] make that transition in the story, they
[31:39] think like oh, like this is going to be
[31:41] great. Like, you know, we're going to
[31:43] go, you know, make the world a better
[31:44] place by, you know, my my favorite
[31:47] example that drove me crazy was like a
[31:50] founder who was building a different
[31:52] type of mortgage product to allow
[31:55] other founders who had lots of money
[31:57] tied up in equity to be able to get a
[31:58] mortgage so they could buy a $3 million
[32:00] house in San Francisco. But they were
[32:02] trying to follow the same playbook of
[32:03] like representing that idea as
[32:06] somehow like good for the world overall
[32:08] and it's like
[32:09] >> You don't need to do that and if you try
[32:11] to do that, you're going to come off
[32:12] looking horribly. It just doesn't work.
[32:15] I mean Julie both as a reporter and
[32:17] >> I'm annoyed that I just didn't think
[32:18] about this. This is what I'm annoyed
[32:20] that you just made the the exact point
[32:21] that's been bothering me the whole time
[32:23] and I didn't think of it because I'm so
[32:25] like obsessive about this stuff. That's
[32:28] literally it. That's the whole thing.
[32:31] We keep trying to frame things in I'm
[32:32] good for the world when really
[32:34] capitalism is fine. We're all pretty
[32:35] comfortable with it at this point.
[32:36] >> Right, right. Well, it's like you can
[32:38] just say you could just say, "Hey, we
[32:40] think this part of how this process
[32:42] sucks and it's making human beings lives
[32:44] miserable for no reason. So, we're going
[32:46] to fix it." And if it turns into a good
[32:48] business, great. If not, I'm kind of
[32:49] obsessed with it, so I'm going to fix it
[32:50] anyway. Like, that would be such a
[32:52] breath of fresh air if someone would
[32:53] tell me that.
[32:54] >> Like, this is just something I deeply
[32:56] care about. Like, [ __ ] yeah. I'd be so
[32:57] locked in.
[32:58] >> you know, like I I just I'm going to fix
[32:59] this. It doesn't really matter, you
[33:01] know, like I I like, to your point about
[33:03] like humility, I like when you talk to
[33:04] founders in like a social setting and
[33:07] you're asking them about like what
[33:08] they're doing. They're like, "Oh, yeah,
[33:09] we're doing this. It's fine." You know,
[33:10] like like it shows that they have a
[33:12] sense of humility and an understanding
[33:14] of where they fit in the broader world.
[33:16] And God, I just don't get that from most
[33:18] >> the story is not linear. Like, again,
[33:21] the VC story has to be linear. And like,
[33:23] the actual what the public story
[33:27] When you do that in the actual public
[33:28] story,
[33:29] it all feels inauthentic. It feels
[33:31] hollow. It feels like
[33:33] >> Totally.
[33:34] >> very faux. It just doesn't work. And it
[33:37] really drives me crazy cuz it's like
[33:39] can't we
[33:41] Like, the point of the story is that
[33:43] it's not linear. The point of the story
[33:44] is that there was struggle. There was
[33:46] There were days where you were like,
[33:47] "Oh, this is our last day." There were
[33:49] days where we were like, "Okay, I'm
[33:50] making a list of the five people I have
[33:52] to lay off because if we're going to
[33:53] make it to next year, that's the only
[33:54] option I have, right?"
[33:56] >> Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean,
[33:57] there's a there's an element of like
[33:59] honesty. Yeah, I mean, Julie, you get
[34:00] these press releases a lot or you have
[34:03] over time like of, "Hey, here's our
[34:04] story. This is so great." Like, how do
[34:06] you react when you get these kind of
[34:08] stories we're describing?
[34:09] >> That like when I was a reporter, the
[34:11] press release was always just like a
[34:12] cheat sheet for me. So, I just needed
[34:14] like the basics down on there and then
[34:16] you got more of the actual story from
[34:18] talking to the founders and stuff cuz
[34:19] the rest of the press release was just
[34:21] BS.
[34:21] >> Yeah, sure.
[34:23] >> So, I would just look at like, "Okay,
[34:24] like here's how much they're raising or
[34:26] this is what the new product's called.
[34:28] Here's when the company was founded.
[34:30] Like, here's where who here's how to
[34:32] spell and make sure I got the the
[34:33] founder's name right and stuff like
[34:35] that. I was like, going back to the
[34:37] point on telling the story, one thing
[34:39] that's really hard both on that and
[34:41] sometimes doing social and blogs for
[34:43] companies is
[34:45] >> [sighs]
[34:45] >> and this is like the biggest red flag
[34:47] for me. I end up leaving within a month
[34:48] or two after this is like if they think
[34:50] they can do your job better than you.
[34:52] It's like, well, why are you paying so
[34:53] much per hour for me to try to tell you
[34:55] that you need to do this a different way
[34:57] and like
[34:57] >> Yeah.
[34:58] >> the way right. I'm taking it when like
[35:00] like you clearly don't think I'm an
[35:02] expert then if you think you can write
[35:04] this better then just write it yourself,
[35:06] you know? That's one of the biggest
[35:08] thing and I think that's one of the
[35:09] founder challenges is
[35:11] >> they
[35:12] they
[35:13] think that they can tell it better than
[35:15] anybody when in reality they can give
[35:18] you all the details but it's better to
[35:19] have someone else kind of like paint
[35:21] that full picture cuz like Koki said it
[35:22] ends up being like a story that your mom
[35:24] will love.
[35:26] >> By the way, my mom never loved our
[35:28] founding stories.
[35:29] Uh so this is this is like I'm like,
[35:31] wow, it was my mom didn't even care.
[35:33] That's how you know like I was I was
[35:35] >> That was your sign and burning.
[35:36] >> You were way out on the edge.
[35:38] >> She was like, oh, this is not good.
[35:40] >> It is a good point, Julia, about like
[35:43] the other thing that kind of drives me
[35:44] crazy about B2B marketing is and I feel
[35:47] I feel bad actually for like CMOs or
[35:50] other cuz you see people like leave
[35:51] jobs, right? It's like, oh, this CMO
[35:52] left or they got fired or whatever. And
[35:55] it's like a lot of times there are these
[35:56] very real unrealistic expectations for
[35:58] B2B marketing I feel like where it's
[36:00] like oh, well, I could do this just as
[36:03] well as you could. Uh
[36:05] I could write this thing. Why am I
[36:08] paying so much money for this? Like
[36:09] there's this very I it doesn't exist for
[36:12] other parts of business, right? Like I
[36:15] don't sit over a programmer's shoulder
[36:17] and be like, you know, I would have done
[36:18] it this way, not that way. Like that
[36:20] doesn't happen in most other parts of
[36:23] work. But for whatever reason marketing,
[36:25] because we all have experience writing
[36:27] stuff and picking out colors and coming
[36:30] up with names. Like it's a very human
[36:32] discipline in some ways. And so I think
[36:34] that leads
[36:35] executives or founders to like be very
[36:38] impatient with marketers and to not give
[36:40] them enough like trust and autonomy and
[36:43] budget and time sometimes too, right?
[36:45] Like the other thing with a lot of this
[36:47] is and and Julia, I wanted to ask you
[36:48] specifically about podcast cuz this is
[36:50] another area where I see this. It's
[36:52] like, "Hey, we're going to do a
[36:52] podcast." And whenever I I hear a
[36:54] company say, "Hey, we're going to do a
[36:55] podcast." I'm like, "Great. Are you
[36:57] prepared to do 5,000 episodes?" Because
[37:00] if you're not, you're probably not going
[37:02] to have a sustained project that's going
[37:04] to actually have the effect you want. If
[37:07] you just want to do like three episodes
[37:09] and then you're going to run out of
[37:10] ideas or momentum or enthusiasm for this
[37:12] project, just don't do it. Like this is
[37:14] a long-term
[37:15] >> a podcast. That's like a webinar series.
[37:18] That's not a podcast.
[37:19] >> Totally. And and like but it's like in
[37:20] your head you think, "I want to do a
[37:22] podcast." Or I want to start a blog. Or
[37:24] I want to be active on social. And it's
[37:25] like you're signing up for a long-term
[37:28] commitment to try to influence how
[37:30] people in your industry think about this
[37:32] topic. That is not something that you
[37:34] throw $10,000 at and then stop. It's not
[37:37] something that you spend a week on and
[37:39] then move on to other things. Like it is
[37:41] a long-term commitment. And God, I mean
[37:43] people just don't think about B2B
[37:45] marketing in a as a long-term
[37:48] initiative. They think about it in terms
[37:49] of like I want to throw money at this
[37:51] and have it just solve my problem.
[37:53] >> Right. Yeah, and sometimes they just
[37:54] want to have one to have one. It's like,
[37:56] "Well, who's your audience? Like do they
[37:58] want to listen to 5,000 episodes from
[38:01] you? Are they going to get sick of it?
[38:03] Are you willing to throw extra money on
[38:04] it like a set and different gear? Like
[38:06] are the people that you want to do it,
[38:08] do they have enough time to actually do
[38:10] it? Or is their schedule crazy like
[38:13] someone like Colton where like it would
[38:15] be so hard to schedule with Colton and
[38:17] with somebody else cuz like you know,
[38:19] the people that you're probably trying
[38:20] to get on the podcast are also probably
[38:22] people with very busy schedules.
[38:23] >> They're super busy, yeah.
[38:24] >> So, and there's just so many different
[38:25] dynamics to a podcast versus doing
[38:27] something like a webinar, a blog post, a
[38:30] short video for social, or or something
[38:33] like that. I'm I'm not opposed to
[38:35] someone doing like a quick series, but
[38:36] again, that's more of like a webinar. I
[38:38] wouldn't necessarily pitch that as a
[38:39] podcast. Um you could turn it into just
[38:42] audio as well if someone wanted to just
[38:44] listen to it that way.
[38:46] But again, that's just like a short
[38:47] series, not necessarily like, "Hey,
[38:48] we're launching a podcast."
[38:50] >> Yeah, I mean and and uh Koki, I mean one
[38:53] thing Julia mentioned that I definitely
[38:55] see a lot is they just want this because
[38:58] they want it. And there there's a real
[38:59] like sort of um
[39:01] like
[39:02] >> Doing for doing.
[39:03] >> Well, and there's like a uh a measuring
[39:05] with your peers thing. Like, they have a
[39:07] podcast, I need to have a podcast. Or
[39:09] they're doing these great things on
[39:11] social, I need to do that. And it's
[39:12] like, "Okay, have you examined your
[39:13] feelings? Have you looked inward and
[39:15] sort of realized like why you have a
[39:17] podcast?"
[39:18] >> Yeah, cuz like there is there is a
[39:19] certain amount of like
[39:21] uh you know, you you should be in
[39:23] therapy rather than like hiring someone
[39:25] to help you build a podcast. Like these
[39:27] are not
[39:27] >> Do it yourself.
[39:28] >> Yeah, like like
[39:29] maybe this won't fill the hole that
[39:31] you're trying to fill in this way. So, I
[39:33] I do think there is an element of that.
[39:35] Um all right, let's do lightning round
[39:38] real fast.
[39:38] >> Ooh, thanks.
[39:39] >> Okay, so I have a couple questions for
[39:41] each of you. First one is, we've already
[39:43] kind of touched on this, but I'm very
[39:44] curious.
[39:45] You both create a ton of content, I
[39:47] create a ton of content. Let's just be
[39:49] honest for a second. How do you use AI
[39:52] to help you do that? And how do you very
[39:54] explicitly not use AI? Like, where do
[39:56] you draw the lines?
[39:58] >> I use it so I don't have a blank
[39:59] template anymore.
[40:00] >> Okay.
[40:01] >> I'll like throw a bunch of notes in
[40:02] there and have it get me started. That's
[40:03] my biggest thing cuz even when I was a
[40:05] reporter, I'm just like you where the
[40:06] blank page is what scares me. Once I've
[40:08] got something started, I can go in and
[40:10] do a bunch of different things. Um I
[40:12] would also say
[40:14] I work with a bunch of different
[40:15] companies, so I'll have different
[40:16] projects in Claude. Um and that project
[40:19] will kind of get tailored to what that
[40:21] company tends to like and that ends up
[40:23] when I put my blank my notes in there
[40:25] whatever, the template that it sends me
[40:27] and the notes what that it gives back
[40:29] are, you know, tailored to that company
[40:32] and it gives it, you know, that slight
[40:33] edge where I have less editing I have to
[40:35] do.
[40:35] >> Got it. That's a good one.
[40:36] >> have to edit it, but it makes it so I'm
[40:38] not starting from a blank page and
[40:39] that's so nice.
[40:41] >> What's a what's a thing you have
[40:43] explicitly said I'm not going to use AI
[40:45] for cuz it crosses some line in terms of
[40:47] the quality of the project or just your
[40:50] own skill set? Like what's the thing you
[40:51] refuse to use AI for?
[40:53] >> I would say it goes back to what we
[40:54] talked about earlier where like you're
[40:55] using AI and then not doing a bunch of
[40:57] editing to it.
[40:58] >> Right. So you'll never you'll never put
[41:00] something in and just copy it out of AI
[41:01] and drop it in to publish.
[41:03] >> Mhm.
[41:03] >> Okay. That seems like a very good rule.
[41:05] Koki, how about you?
[41:06] >> I've written about this and I get asked
[41:08] this a lot because as you can see I
[41:11] produce a lot of work every week and I
[41:13] write it in my in my personal humble
[41:16] opinion beautifully and people are like,
[41:18] "That must be AI." I'm like, "No, AI
[41:19] could never. AI does not have my je ne
[41:21] sais quoi. You know what I mean?"
[41:23] >> I agree.
[41:23] >> But
[41:24] it does have a lot that I love. Um so
[41:27] the way that I work with AI is pretty
[41:29] systematic. I basically go back and
[41:30] forth with it a lot. Give me the idea.
[41:32] Okay, give me five ideas. Great. Okay.
[41:35] Uh I like this one. Let's dig in. No,
[41:36] that's not my opinion. No, I do not
[41:38] agree with you. No, I do not like that.
[41:40] And just back and back and back and
[41:41] forth on the idea. Then I'm like, "Give
[41:43] me a draft." Then I know I've got this.
[41:45] And then
[41:46] >> Yeah.
[41:46] >> And then I'm like, "Change this section.
[41:47] This is a better example here. I like
[41:49] this a lot. Can we bring this in?" And
[41:51] then I have it give me a draft and then
[41:53] I copy the draft into docs
[41:55] and then I rewrite it line by line
[41:57] >> Mhm.
[41:57] >> in my own voice.
[41:58] >> Yeah.
[41:58] >> So it's like given me what Julie says,
[42:00] it gives me the notes essentially, but
[42:04] it really helps me be able to sit down
[42:06] and actually do the thing I'm great at
[42:08] which is I am a beautiful writer. What I
[42:10] suck at or not suck, but it is my
[42:13] weakness in writing is I sometimes
[42:16] forget to close the gap because as you
[42:18] know, I enjoy the absurdist digression.
[42:19] >> Yes, yeah. Yeah.
[42:21] >> So, um it really helps me keep the like
[42:24] the mechanism of the actual piece
[42:27] together. Like the the fundamentals of
[42:29] like what am I trying to say?
[42:31] Um but it I also rewrite it line by line
[42:34] and that is where I find just the most
[42:36] tremendous joy. I cannot express to you
[42:39] like what that feels like for me. I
[42:40] think
[42:42] for normal people there's other things
[42:44] they do that are really pleasant, but
[42:45] like for me it's copying it into that
[42:47] doc rewriting it line by line on the
[42:49] subway. Like that is the happiest I am.
[42:52] >> [laughter]
[42:52] >> Cuz I get to take it's like very busy
[42:54] boy writing that I had to do as a
[42:56] younger person and turn it into like a
[42:59] Kokyism.
[43:00] >> Well, I so it's funny you say that cuz I
[43:02] actually do the same thing. I I never
[43:04] and then uh Julie you were saying the
[43:05] same thing too like I never let it just
[43:08] have its wording in my draft ever ever
[43:11] ever. Um cuz I do think there is such
[43:13] value in like well, I wouldn't use that
[43:16] word. I would stretch this sentence out
[43:18] into two sentences like whatever like
[43:19] there's a there's a way that you speak
[43:22] that is very difficult to I I found.
[43:25] I've tried to like program it into
[43:27] Claude or get it to do something and it
[43:28] just like as much as it wants to try to
[43:31] personalize to you, it always falls back
[43:33] on its sort of like B-minus level
[43:35] training data thing and like you can't
[43:38] that's why like you always have to
[43:39] remind it to take M dashes out. Like it
[43:40] just can't help itself. It has to revert
[43:43] back to the mean. So, I think that's a
[43:45] really powerful example. Koky, what's a
[43:47] thing you like will never ever
[43:49] in a million years let AI do for you?
[43:51] >> I usually don't let it come up with
[43:54] anything that I would classify as art.
[43:58] >> Oh, interesting.
[43:58] >> So, like
[44:00] art for me can mean anything very tiny
[44:02] to something very large, but I don't let
[44:04] it I don't let it have a place in the
[44:07] creation of something absurd or artistic
[44:10] in nature. Like something where the
[44:11] primary function is that. So, I think my
[44:14] last piece I spent a lot of time talking
[44:16] about Fatboy Slim. It did not help me
[44:18] talk about Fatboy Slim.
[44:20] >> No.
[44:20] >> Like I really First of all, I love
[44:22] Fatboy Slim. Secondly, I was like really
[44:23] digging in cuz I was like, "Okay, this
[44:25] is the the thing I'm trying to trigger
[44:27] and the piece The art of that piece was
[44:29] all about like
[44:31] how do we how how do we reference a
[44:33] reference a reference?" And it's like
[44:36] that's that's the story I decided to
[44:38] contain it in is me being 6 years old
[44:40] and being like, "Why do I not live in
[44:41] South London and why am I not at a club
[44:43] in Peckham right now?" Even though I'm
[44:44] 6. Like
[44:45] >> Yeah.
[44:46] >> Why am I nostalgic for something I never
[44:47] experienced? These kinds of things that
[44:49] layer into our experience of the world.
[44:52] Yeah, I can't let it do that because it
[44:54] could never do that. Like I talk a lot
[44:56] about in that piece in particular, but
[44:58] every week I literally talk about the
[45:00] things the bot could never do. The
[45:01] things the bot cannot do. It could not
[45:04] have the feeling of like
[45:06] floating along in the Aegean and getting
[45:08] out of the water and realizing you can't
[45:10] remember where your mommy is. It can't
[45:12] like
[45:13] It It cannot smell the sautéing of
[45:15] onions and celery at the end of every
[45:16] day in the house, right? Like It It
[45:19] doesn't have the same like
[45:22] smooth like this grandmother's hands
[45:24] isn't aren't smooth from like years and
[45:26] years of manipulating filo dough and
[45:28] creating things that are really yummy.
[45:30] Right? It just It doesn't have any of
[45:32] that and that's how I layer myself back
[45:34] in. And I think that's what you're
[45:35] talking about is like, "How do we
[45:39] We cannot let AI take the place of
[45:40] layering ourselves back into something
[45:43] that is passable and turning it into
[45:44] something that could be glorious."
[45:46] >> Yeah, I think that's I think that's
[45:47] really well said. The other component
[45:49] for me that I've had to be very careful
[45:51] on is
[45:53] I get a lot of value out of doing the
[45:54] research myself. You know, doing the
[45:56] reading, you know, and um
[45:58] I
[45:59] >> do the math. I I love that about your
[46:01] work. You really I can tell you did.
[46:03] >> Well, and and it's cuz it's like well, I
[46:05] mean but I think it goes to the point.
[46:07] I'm glad to hear you say that cuz I
[46:08] think it goes to the point of like
[46:10] there's something ineffable that just
[46:11] sort of seeps into it if you've actually
[46:14] done the work and people can tell and
[46:16] it's very subtle. It's hard to sort of
[46:18] pick out but like there's just this
[46:19] feeling of yeah, I've done the reading
[46:22] and um it's very tempting to use AI to
[46:24] do the reading for you but sitting aside
[46:27] the fact that it hallucinates and makes
[46:28] mistakes and screws stuff up even if it
[46:30] doesn't it sort of robs you of the
[46:32] experience of like doing the reading
[46:34] yourself and so I I I was warned
[46:38] >> I also love being a research girly, you
[46:40] know? Like there's so much pleasure in
[46:42] discovery.
[46:43] >> And you have to sort of like cultivate
[46:45] that in yourself, right? Cuz like I I
[46:47] remember when I was like when I was in
[46:49] school I I would say this like AI would
[46:51] have been horrible for me cuz I I'm a
[46:53] constant taking shortcuts if I can find
[46:55] them person and the only way I developed
[46:58] my good habits that I have is because I
[47:00] had to. I was forced to develop them in
[47:02] order to survive in the world and make
[47:04] make a living. If I hadn't had that, I
[47:07] wouldn't have those tools. I'm not
[47:09] self-directed that way and I I do think
[47:11] there is a case to be made that like for
[47:13] a young marketer or copywriter or if you
[47:16] want to get into content creation or
[47:17] whatever, like do all of it yourself for
[47:20] a very long time and then slowly like
[47:22] layer AI in kind of one piece at a time
[47:24] but you have to kind of find the parts
[47:27] to your point Cookie about like the
[47:28] rewriting it line by line. Like if
[47:30] that's your superpower and that's what
[47:32] you enjoy, you can't let AI do that for
[47:34] you. You have to do it yourself but you
[47:36] also have to spend some time figuring
[47:37] that out about yourself before that's
[47:40] something you know that is like personal
[47:41] to your workflow.
[47:43] >> Really, I I think that's an interesting
[47:45] like
[47:46] I don't know that I had gotten to that
[47:47] framing of like
[47:50] do the stuff yourself but I really like
[47:52] it and my team is about to be very be at
[47:55] you.
[47:56] >> [laughter]
[47:57] >> As Cookie takes away all of their AI
[47:59] tools. Uh
[48:00] >> They're going to be like, "No!"
[48:02] >> [laughter]
[48:03] >> Yeah, there's going to be a mass revolt.
[48:05] You're going to find my head on a spike
[48:07] and that's going to be worth it.
[48:08] >> Well, I mean, at least at least we'll
[48:09] have done it for the content. Um all
[48:11] right, uh Julie, second uh question.
[48:13] Both of you worked uh at and Julie, you
[48:16] were co-founder of Fintech uh today,
[48:18] which is a publication that if you know
[48:21] anything about Fintech, you know and
[48:23] read and were uh absorbed in a uh green
[48:25] and proper world for many, many years.
[48:27] Give me one story uh about something you
[48:31] learned kind of creating content for a
[48:33] newsletter, working with sponsors that
[48:35] you've sort of carried forward into the
[48:36] work that you do today.
[48:38] >> Don't be afraid to have opinions and
[48:41] write in your style. Zaid had a very
[48:44] distinct style at Fintech Today. Like I
[48:45] don't like
[48:47] I started every single newsletter with
[48:49] like, "Hi friends." And then give some
[48:51] like sort of personal anecdotes. And the
[48:52] trick was like, the people thought they
[48:54] were like friends with me reading. And
[48:56] we were friends to to a certain extent
[48:58] and stuff. So I I liked having that and
[49:00] you do that a lot in your newsletter,
[49:01] too. So I think that I think that was
[49:03] super important. And then the other
[49:05] hardest part was doing succinct We would
[49:08] like on certain newsletters, not the
[49:09] deep dives and stuff, but like covering
[49:11] the news and just having like a couple
[49:12] lines and like, "Here's the opinion.
[49:14] Here's the opinion." And not being
[49:15] afraid for someone reading it being
[49:16] like, "Well, I think that's different."
[49:18] Cuz like that's great. I love it that
[49:20] some people would disagree with it and
[49:22] have other opinions because there's
[49:24] there's various ways to have different
[49:26] takes on things. So I would say the
[49:28] biggest thing is
[49:29] don't be afraid to have more of a a
[49:31] personal voice in it and have opinions,
[49:33] which B2B marketing needs to to learn a
[49:36] little bit from as well.
[49:38] >> Strenuously agree. Uh Koki, how about
[49:39] you?
[49:40] >> Exact same on the first point of like I
[49:42] started everything in Fintech Today
[49:44] with, "Hey y'all." And you did think you
[49:46] were friends with me. I also wrote in
[49:48] character. I don't A lot of people don't
[49:49] know this about me. A lot of people
[49:51] thought that was me speaking, but I
[49:53] decided I developed this character that
[49:54] I thought really worked for Fintech
[49:56] today, which is like a
[49:57] a Paris Hilton-esque version of somebody
[50:00] who knew a lot about Fintech, who was a
[50:02] little bit smarter than you, but knew
[50:03] how to boil it back, and like
[50:06] also wasn't
[50:07] like but wasn't intimidating. Like the
[50:09] point was supposed to be a little ditzy.
[50:11] And I think a lot of people got like so
[50:13] many people read the free newsletter
[50:14] every week. There was like a ton of
[50:16] readers. I don't even remember. And by
[50:17] the time we were done with that that
[50:18] like
[50:19] >> I got I started getting recognized in
[50:20] public by random people, right? Like it
[50:23] was really weird.
[50:24] >> So I Or if you wore like the Fintech
[50:25] Today hat or like sweater
[50:27] >> never wore.
[50:29] Which I never wore. I got recognized
[50:30] with a mask on once. I was like, "Damn,
[50:32] my hair must be iconic." But like
[50:34] >> [laughter]
[50:35] >> um but like it started to happen towards
[50:37] the end. It was really weird. Um
[50:39] which is funny cuz it's Fintech, who
[50:41] cares?
[50:41] >> Sure, yeah.
[50:42] >> But there was this
[50:43] um
[50:44] this element of creating this character
[50:46] I think was really important for a
[50:47] younger version of me that was very
[50:49] scared to be wrong. Which brings me to
[50:51] the next thing. Be wrong loudly and
[50:53] often. Um there is an immigrant child
[50:56] inside of me who was held to a very high
[51:00] standard and was expected to deliver
[51:02] perfect grades, perfect athletic record,
[51:04] perfect attendance, all this stuff. Um
[51:06] who hates being wrong and fears it above
[51:09] everything else.
[51:11] There Fintech Today very much taught me
[51:14] that being wrong loudly and often is
[51:16] only a boon.
[51:17] It can only be good for you.
[51:19] >> Yeah, yeah.
[51:20] >> formulate. It helps you build that
[51:21] backbone. Um
[51:24] and for edification today I actually do
[51:26] not write in character
[51:28] So now you're you're you're cool.
[51:30] >> You got to break character, okay.
[51:31] >> Um
[51:32] >> It's very interesting. I cuz now that
[51:34] I'm comfortable being wrong, I'm
[51:35] comfortable being me. And it's before I
[51:37] could be like I could be wrong, but it
[51:38] was someone else. It was a character I
[51:39] built. It was the edification.
[51:41] >> I mean, that's a good piece of advice
[51:43] for people getting started cuz I think
[51:44] there is so it's so intimidating to
[51:46] share your thoughts on a subject,
[51:47] especially when like one of the things
[51:49] that's scary about fintech is you might
[51:51] be smart and have a take on something,
[51:52] but like at best you're like a 200 level
[51:55] expert on a subject where you know there
[51:57] are 400 level experts reading it. And so
[51:59] it's like very intimidating
[52:02] especially when you're getting started
[52:03] to kind of trust your own take or
[52:05] instincts. So it's funny that you
[52:07] develop sort of a character to kind of
[52:08] like protect yourself a little bit at
[52:10] the beginning.
[52:11] >> like 26, right? Like I was scared.
[52:14] >> Totally.
[52:14] >> I was I was young and I was scared and
[52:16] my editor was Julie who was like also 26
[52:19] and the two of us were like I hope they
[52:21] like it, you know.
[52:22] >> Yeah.
[52:22] Well, we liked it.
[52:23] >> Your face is still 26 though, so it's
[52:25] okay.
[52:25] >> Thank you, Dr. Dingra. Yeah.
[52:26] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another another
[52:27] shout-out. Um all right, final question.
[52:30] I'll let you both go. Give me one
[52:32] fintech company, ideally one that you
[52:34] don't work for,
[52:35] whose marketing you [laughter] admire
[52:38] and tell me why.
[52:40] Julie, you go first.
[52:41] >> Mhm, I'm even though Koki disagreed, I
[52:43] do think Stripe does a very good job and
[52:45] it's just because they you can tell they
[52:48] put a lot of effort into the things that
[52:49] they do. The tech blog I see referenced
[52:51] a lot.
[52:52] >> Mhm.
[52:52] >> The Cheeky Pint podcast
[52:54] >> Sure.
[52:55] >> that they do. That I think built out a
[52:57] whole set for it and that's doing a
[52:58] podcast right. And saying like I will
[53:00] commit to the 5,000 episodes.
[53:03] Um and then like Stripe Sessions. It's
[53:06] literally just one company doing a
[53:07] conference and people freaking like fly
[53:09] into it and everything.
[53:10] >> I've never been, but I want to go. Yeah,
[53:11] yeah. I've heard really good things.
[53:13] >> Mhm. People literally are like out in
[53:15] the parking lot talking to folks and
[53:16] stuff. It's sort of like, you know, a
[53:18] mini Money 2020 or fintech nerd con just
[53:21] like at Stripe Sessions. It's crazy.
[53:23] Think name another company that in
[53:25] fintech that has
[53:27] that kind of presence and people willing
[53:29] like literally thousands of people that
[53:31] want to fly in just to hear you talk
[53:33] about your new features and stuff.
[53:35] >> Totally. Yeah, that's a good one. Koki,
[53:37] how about you?
[53:37] >> Not Stripe.
[53:39] Um
[53:40] >> [laughter]
[53:41] >> Sorry.
[53:42] >> We'll do another podcast on your uh hot
[53:45] take on Stripe being bad at marketing.
[53:46] >> a I have a a series of hot takes on
[53:48] Stripe. Uh I just think I don't actually
[53:50] think they're bad at marketing. I think
[53:51] um I'm done with them being the gold
[53:53] standard of marketing because they're
[53:54] really bad at copying and plagiarizing.
[53:55] >> That's That's a different That's a
[53:56] different take. I I I can agree with
[53:58] that.
[53:58] >> That doesn't mean they're bad. That just
[54:00] means Their own Their own corner of the
[54:01] world they own very well and
[54:03] beautifully. And it's well executed. And
[54:05] then you have the like every company's
[54:08] purple, every company with the exact
[54:10] same language that drives me crazy.
[54:11] >> Right, right, right.
[54:11] >> Um Who do I like? Sok Air, obviously,
[54:14] for um personal reasons that are just I
[54:17] like my own work. Um
[54:20] Yeah, shocker. I I also really like
[54:22] Spade.
[54:23] >> Mhm.
[54:23] >> Um they're a data and AI platform.
[54:26] Basically, they're do like I think
[54:27] they're like do transaction grouping.
[54:29] >> Yeah, transaction enrichment stuff,
[54:30] yeah.
[54:31] >> That's right.
[54:32] >> Mhm.
[54:32] >> They were a great podcast host with me.
[54:35] >> Oh, right.
[54:36] >> Yeah, shout out that, too.
[54:37] [clears throat]
[54:38] Um but I really like how they visualize
[54:41] what they do. Like their new website is
[54:44] literally my favorite thing in the
[54:45] world. I look at it probably three times
[54:46] a week, I'm not kidding. Um
[54:49] I've told their their founder Ruben on
[54:50] multiple different occasions that like
[54:52] their website is my favorite thing in
[54:53] the world and I can't wait to to do that
[54:56] but better at Sok Air. And then I taunt
[54:58] him a bit.
[54:59] >> There you go. Little competition.
[55:01] >> Yeah, it's good for us. But I First of
[55:03] all, the work's important, which is
[55:04] good. I think the work visually is
[55:07] really It's really important to be able
[55:08] to visualize that work and uh free
[55:10] advice, Ruben, if you're listening, uh
[55:12] you should do a bunch of outbound
[55:14] marketing on the data that you only you
[55:16] can see. So like you know, you're doing
[55:19] all this enrichment for Mercury. What
[55:20] are business banks actually Like what
[55:22] are business bank accounts actually
[55:23] spending on? Like do these kind of
[55:25] reports like You know how everyone loves
[55:26] like the Pornhub data report? Do that,
[55:28] but for money.
[55:29] >> one of those recently was Ramp obviously
[55:31] sees how much people
[55:32] >> Yeah, that, too. I love Ramp.
[55:34] >> spending on AI and Claude just Anthropic
[55:38] just passed open AI. Like that's a
[55:40] brilliant marketing tactic. Do a story
[55:42] on that. It's great.
[55:43] >> Yeah, you have the data.
[55:45] >> the data that they have on
[55:46] >> Ramp is is a good winner, too. Like they
[55:49] they do really good work. They're really
[55:52] They are also very like output. You can
[55:54] tell that things are tied to revenue.
[55:55] >> to fundraise every 2 weeks is cuz
[55:57] they're spending so much on their
[55:58] marketing.
[55:59] >> I think there's something to
[56:00] >> about that all week.
[56:01] >> Yeah, yeah. I I I had a hot take on Ramp
[56:05] uh week and it was uh that yeah, they
[56:07] they are exceptional at marketing, but
[56:09] it probably isn't cheap to uh to fund
[56:11] all of that beautiful work. I mean, they
[56:13] do Super Bowl ads for crying out loud.
[56:15] So
[56:15] >> And then going back and forth with you
[56:17] on it. I went back and forth with Matt
[56:18] Matt Goldman on it cuz Matt Goldman's
[56:20] like my favorite person to complain
[56:21] about things with. Um
[56:23] >> [laughter]
[56:24] >> It's something. It's something. Um all
[56:26] right, that's I will not take up any
[56:28] more of your time. As always, a delight.
[56:30] This is the first time I think both of
[56:32] you have been on the podcast. It will
[56:33] not be the last. Thank you so much for
[56:34] coming on. This was so
[56:35] >> So, remember we only come on together.
[56:37] You can't have just
[56:37] >> Yeah, we are one unit.
[56:39] >> I now know the rules. I won't ever try
[56:41] to uh to break them again.
[56:42] >> agent, please. We're It's very important
[56:44] to us.
[56:45] >> I will do that. Thank you so much.
[56:47] >> Thank you. Thank you for having us. This
[56:48] is awesome.
[56:51] >> Okay, uh up next on the podcast, we have
[56:54] Jessica Kendall, head of content and
[56:57] communications at Spin Wheel. Uh I
[56:59] wanted to have Jessica on because uh
[57:01] I've known her for a long time. She's a
[57:03] friend of mine in the industry and more
[57:04] importantly, she's one of the better B2B
[57:07] marketers and specifically content
[57:09] marketers that I know. So, I wanted to
[57:11] have her come on to talk a little bit
[57:12] about messaging, content creation, uh
[57:16] the importance of editing, particularly
[57:18] in the age of AI, and why whimsy and fun
[57:24] really work when it comes to standing
[57:25] out from the crowd. So, great
[57:27] conversation with Jessica and that is up
[57:29] next.
[57:30] This episode is brought to you by
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[58:05] withpersona.com/ftt-fraud.
[58:11] Okay, well, it is a day for firsts
[58:14] making her first Fintech Takes podcast
[58:17] appearance.
[58:18] My friend and frequent collaborator
[58:20] Jessica Kendall. Jessica, great to see
[58:22] you.
[58:22] >> Likewise, thanks for having me here.
[58:24] >> I am delighted to have you here. I feel
[58:26] like we chat all the time,
[58:29] but we've never recorded any of these
[58:30] chats. I know that you think very deeply
[58:33] about all things content creation,
[58:36] content marketing, B2B marketing and
[58:38] I've worked in the space forever. So, I
[58:40] wanted to pick your brain on a couple of
[58:41] subjects.
[58:42] The first one is one that I haven't
[58:44] talked about yet on this episode, but is
[58:47] like to me kind of the root underneath
[58:50] all the other work that eventually gets
[58:51] done in this area, which is messaging.
[58:56] I find and I'd be curious for your
[58:59] perspective on this. I find messaging to
[59:01] be one of those tasks that
[59:04] I I think like people who haven't worked
[59:07] in content marketing before don't even
[59:09] like know as like a thing you do. Like
[59:12] it's not even like on the radar cuz it's
[59:13] not it's not an output. You don't see it
[59:16] published anywhere, but you see its
[59:19] fingerprints on good content, on good
[59:22] marketing campaigns because it's a
[59:24] distillation of like who are we as a
[59:27] company, why do we exist, why do we do
[59:29] what we do, what problems are we
[59:31] obsessed with, how do we talk about
[59:33] that, and like creating sort of an
[59:36] internal consistency that is again kind
[59:39] of the underpinnings I think of all
[59:40] great content.
[59:42] The fact that this is work that most
[59:44] people don't know happens is a
[59:46] challenge. It's also work that like uh
[59:48] and you you have much more experience at
[59:50] this than I do, but I have worked on a
[59:51] few messaging projects. Everyone always
[59:53] has an opinion on. So, just like trying
[59:56] to extract from people's brains,
[59:58] particularly when you're working at a
[01:00:00] fintech startup and it's like founders,
[01:00:03] executives who've worked at the company
[01:00:05] for a long time, like everyone has their
[01:00:07] own sort of internal story for how they
[01:00:10] think about and talk about the company,
[01:00:12] the product, why it exists, when they go
[01:00:14] to parties or they like are talking to
[01:00:17] their uh spouse's parents about what
[01:00:18] they do, like they have a way they
[01:00:20] describe it, but like harmonizing all of
[01:00:22] those, get everyone on board with it,
[01:00:24] and then creating like a messaging
[01:00:27] document or a messaging framework. We
[01:00:29] used to call it a messaging tree back in
[01:00:30] the day. Um creating something like that
[01:00:33] that then can be the basis for all of
[01:00:35] the other B2B marketing and content work
[01:00:37] you want to do.
[01:00:39] It it's shockingly hard. What's been
[01:00:41] your experience kind of trying to craft
[01:00:43] messaging, trying to update messaging?
[01:00:45] Like give us a window into that work.
[01:00:47] >> It's very timely that you asked me this
[01:00:49] now cuz I joined Spinwheel 3 months ago,
[01:00:51] literally.
[01:00:52] >> I wanted to ask you. Yeah.
[01:00:53] >> And so that's the first thing I do when
[01:00:56] I I started a new role. Um
[01:00:58] and my first week or two all I did was
[01:01:01] just meet with people and say, "Okay,
[01:01:03] tell me how you explain Spinwheel. How
[01:01:05] does it work?"
[01:01:06] >> Yep.
[01:01:06] >> Um and you you kind of collect all the
[01:01:08] inputs you get, the 800 different
[01:01:10] elevator pitches floating around there,
[01:01:12] and I think the easiest thing to do
[01:01:14] first is what are the commonalities, and
[01:01:16] then what are those weird outliers, and
[01:01:18] figure out where the truth lies in
[01:01:20] between all of those cuz there's going
[01:01:22] to be some things that are no-brainers.
[01:01:23] Everybody says X Y Z, you've got that.
[01:01:27] But then there's like weird anecdotal
[01:01:29] stories that pop up, customer case study
[01:01:32] examples, things like that that kind of
[01:01:34] allow you to create some of that
[01:01:36] differentiation.
[01:01:38] Um
[01:01:39] cuz it's it's not as easy as just, you
[01:01:40] know, plopping it into chat GPT and then
[01:01:42] copy-paste. It doesn't work like that,
[01:01:44] unfortunately.
[01:01:46] Uh nor do you want it to work like that
[01:01:47] because then everyone will sound the
[01:01:48] same. Um so I think
[01:01:51] you got to learn, you got to read, you
[01:01:53] got to see what's already out there. And
[01:01:55] then you're right, there's, you know, 50
[01:01:58] cooks in the kitchen and every cook has
[01:02:00] a different recipe. And you're like,
[01:02:02] "Okay, no, today we're making cupcakes.
[01:02:05] This is how we're doing it."
[01:02:06] >> Yeah, yeah.
[01:02:07] >> Uh and and find a way to to create that
[01:02:09] commonality. So I think first and
[01:02:11] foremost you you got to listen, you got
[01:02:13] to take the good with the bad and figure
[01:02:15] out how to translate it. And then
[01:02:17] I think the harder part is once you have
[01:02:19] figured out what that messaging is,
[01:02:22] getting everybody to sing from the same
[01:02:23] song sheet, so to speak.
[01:02:25] >> Yeah, yeah.
[01:02:26] >> Uh cuz people have habits. They've
[01:02:28] already been used to explaining it one
[01:02:30] way or they don't know enough about one
[01:02:34] topic to be able to dive into it. So
[01:02:36] that internal
[01:02:38] training and opera- opera-
[01:02:41] >> operalization
[01:02:42] >> even a word?
[01:02:42] >> Uh you now now you've screwed me up,
[01:02:44] too.
[01:02:44] >> See? See? Nobody can say it.
[01:02:46] >> Operalization. Is that what it was?
[01:02:47] Okay, yes.
[01:02:48] >> Yes. So getting everybody to use it, I
[01:02:51] think is is the even harder part. And
[01:02:54] it's iterative, too. Like if you write
[01:02:55] your messaging and then never change it
[01:02:57] for years, it's going to get stale, it's
[01:02:59] going to get outdated. So all of my
[01:03:01] messaging docs are living, breathing,
[01:03:03] and I always tell people I reserve the
[01:03:05] right to change this at any point in
[01:03:06] time.
[01:03:07] >> Mhm.
[01:03:07] >> And I will. Um because as the company
[01:03:09] evolves, new products come out, industry
[01:03:12] trends change, uh you got to shift with
[01:03:14] it.
[01:03:15] >> Well, and and to that point, that's the
[01:03:17] other thing wanted to ask you messaging
[01:03:18] is
[01:03:19] I feel like everyone is sort of
[01:03:20] revamping their messaging whether
[01:03:22] they're doing it in a formal way or not
[01:03:24] because of AI. So, it's like we all need
[01:03:25] to have an answer for AI. We all need to
[01:03:27] explain why our company just so happens
[01:03:30] to be the one that's perfectly
[01:03:32] positioned to catch this AI wave and to
[01:03:34] like, you know, drive the change that
[01:03:38] everyone thinks is going to happen in
[01:03:39] the industry and to, you know, benefit
[01:03:41] for us and our customers to benefit from
[01:03:43] this change.
[01:03:44] And you know, AI is obviously the most
[01:03:46] dramatic example of this, but this
[01:03:47] happens frequently where it's like the
[01:03:49] the sort of center of gravity of the
[01:03:51] company shifts and the messaging needs
[01:03:53] to move with it, but like maybe using AI
[01:03:56] as a case study,
[01:03:58] I mean, how do you think about
[01:04:00] positioning a company in the age of AI?
[01:04:02] Because everyone is telling this story.
[01:04:05] Like probably going back to your point
[01:04:06] about you can't just ask Chat GPT or
[01:04:09] Cloud to do this.
[01:04:10] I would be willing to bet that one of
[01:04:13] the more frequent uh business queries
[01:04:16] that AI chatbots have been getting over
[01:04:18] the last couple of years has been, "Hey,
[01:04:21] how does my company make sense now that
[01:04:23] AI tools are here?" And so, everyone is
[01:04:25] kind of working on a revamp of their
[01:04:27] story to make sense in the year of our
[01:04:30] Lord 2026. How do you think about that?
[01:04:33] >> Yeah, it it's similar to what you saw,
[01:04:35] you know, when digital became a thing
[01:04:36] and with mobile.
[01:04:38] I remember everybody putting, you know,
[01:04:39] mobile first, mobile ready on their
[01:04:41] messaging even if it wasn't really. I
[01:04:43] think AI is the same way. So, if you see
[01:04:46] AI-powered, AI-enabled, you have to
[01:04:48] wonder, is it actually AI-powered? Um,
[01:04:52] I think retrofitting is the keyword you
[01:04:54] said cuz if you are just retrofitting
[01:04:57] to weave in AI, you're probably not
[01:04:59] actually using AI and it's just
[01:05:02] trying to jump on the bandwagon.
[01:05:05] Um, I think for us, fortunately,
[01:05:09] Spinwheel is very advanced on its use of
[01:05:12] AI. So, for us it was an easy
[01:05:13] conversation to talk about it. But, for
[01:05:15] us it was how far do you go? How much do
[01:05:18] you share to show you're innovative
[01:05:20] without kind of giving away that secret
[01:05:21] sauce? I think that was the bigger
[01:05:24] challenge for us is how do you draw the
[01:05:26] right line?
[01:05:27] Um and for companies who are just trying
[01:05:29] to be like, "Oh, we use AI."
[01:05:31] Stop. Actually use AI first.
[01:05:34] >> Yep.
[01:05:35] >> And then weave it into your messaging.
[01:05:37] Um and I think the bigger question is
[01:05:38] how is AI changing how that messaging is
[01:05:41] consumed? So, for us
[01:05:44] you know, every AI model has its own
[01:05:46] methodology for where it pulls answers
[01:05:48] to prompts and queries.
[01:05:50] Um so, how do you make sure you're
[01:05:51] showing up in those answers? That's kind
[01:05:53] of where I've been spending my time
[01:05:55] lately and trying to build out the right
[01:05:57] framework to ensure that we're showing
[01:05:59] up where we should.
[01:06:00] >> Well, and I think the the core point
[01:06:03] with like showing up where we should,
[01:06:05] whether it's search engine optimization
[01:06:07] or now we have generative engine
[01:06:09] optimization, GEO.
[01:06:11] Uh thank god I got out of SEO when I
[01:06:13] did. Like, I feel like I avoided uh the
[01:06:16] challenges everyone else is going
[01:06:18] through now. But, the root of doing that
[01:06:21] well, regardless of the interface that's
[01:06:23] used to find the information, is
[01:06:25] creating great content. And I wanted to
[01:06:28] get a sense from you on how you think
[01:06:30] about creating content that breaks
[01:06:32] through because it does feel like when I
[01:06:35] started working in B2B marketing, I
[01:06:38] started very early in content creation.
[01:06:41] And it was actually great because almost
[01:06:43] no businesses were creating great
[01:06:44] content back then. And so, you could
[01:06:47] start a blog and you could just sort of
[01:06:49] create good content that wasn't like
[01:06:51] extraordinary, but was just like kind of
[01:06:54] somewhat more personal, somewhat more
[01:06:56] interesting and well-researched than the
[01:06:58] average and you could really stand out.
[01:07:01] You know, you fast forward to today,
[01:07:03] content marketing is the strategy that
[01:07:05] everyone pursues to varying degrees.
[01:07:07] It's supercharged, of course, by the
[01:07:08] fact that we have AI that you can use to
[01:07:11] just spit out kind of what, C+ B- level
[01:07:14] content that's like good enough. And so,
[01:07:18] it does feel a little bit like we've
[01:07:20] sort of flooded the zone with content.
[01:07:22] And as a result, like if you're going to
[01:07:24] do content marketing, and it feels like
[01:07:26] that's still a very valid and important
[01:07:28] part of the mix of what everyone should
[01:07:30] be doing,
[01:07:31] like you have to think a lot more about
[01:07:33] how do I stand out in a sea of content
[01:07:37] and increasingly a sea of slop. How how
[01:07:39] do you think about that?
[01:07:40] >> Yeah, I think first of all, if you use
[01:07:43] AI to support your writing, that's fine.
[01:07:45] But
[01:07:46] >> Sure.
[01:07:46] >> I I think of AI as a really good unpaid
[01:07:50] intern. Use them for research, use them
[01:07:52] for first drafts, but check their work.
[01:07:55] Um, and make sure you're you're being
[01:07:57] critical to what's coming out. So, no
[01:08:00] problem with that. I use it myself to
[01:08:02] help come up with headline ideas or do
[01:08:04] some of the research behind topics that
[01:08:06] I'm not as smart on. But to create
[01:08:09] content that actually stands out and
[01:08:10] that gets picked up by AI,
[01:08:13] it's you have to still have that
[01:08:14] original thought. Like I always tell
[01:08:16] people who are like, "I want to be a
[01:08:17] thought leader." It's like, "Okay, to be
[01:08:18] a thought leader, you have to have a
[01:08:19] thought first. And then that's how you
[01:08:21] can be a thought leader." So,
[01:08:23] I mean, you know this about me. I love
[01:08:25] research and unique data insights. Those
[01:08:28] are always going to stand out from the
[01:08:30] noise because no one else can
[01:08:32] access that same data and provide those
[01:08:35] insights. So, an AI loves to reference
[01:08:38] that kind of research when it's pulling
[01:08:41] answers to queries. It gives you that
[01:08:42] authority, that relevance.
[01:08:44] Um, so I'm always going to turn to
[01:08:46] research first if that's an option. Um,
[01:08:48] and then back to my joke about if you
[01:08:51] want to be a thought leader, you have to
[01:08:51] have a thought. Same thing with great
[01:08:53] content. It has to have some kind of
[01:08:54] thought. If you're just regurgitating
[01:08:57] something or recapping something without
[01:08:59] putting your own unique lens on it, it's
[01:09:03] just going to fall into that sub bucket
[01:09:05] and not going to stand out at all.
[01:09:07] Um and then I would say the last thing
[01:09:09] is
[01:09:11] if you are bored by it,
[01:09:12] other people are probably bored by it,
[01:09:14] too. So, write things that you yourself
[01:09:16] find interesting
[01:09:17] >> Yeah.
[01:09:18] >> and that you know your audience will
[01:09:19] find interesting, not just what you
[01:09:21] think you have to write about.
[01:09:24] >> Uh to put a plus one on that last point
[01:09:27] you made, uh
[01:09:28] I I am I am constantly blown away by
[01:09:32] the ability for people, when they
[01:09:34] consume content, to pick up on very
[01:09:39] subtle cues that indicate your level of
[01:09:41] passion about a topic.
[01:09:44] And it's really hard to feign. I don't
[01:09:46] know why that is, but like every time
[01:09:48] I've tried to write like the next viral
[01:09:51] piece on agentic commerce or whatever
[01:09:53] the topic du jour is at the moment, um
[01:09:57] it fails. It falls flat. And I try
[01:09:58] really hard, right? I'm like, I'm going
[01:10:00] to I'm going to be a part of this
[01:10:01] conversation. Like, that's just not for
[01:10:03] Simon Taylor, that's for me, too. I'm
[01:10:04] going to get in this and I'm going to
[01:10:05] like be a thought leader in this
[01:10:07] particular area. And you know, I'm not
[01:10:10] really actually that interested in the
[01:10:11] topic. I don't really care. I can fake a
[01:10:14] lot of the research and the effort with
[01:10:16] AI or with other things,
[01:10:18] but there's just some subtle thing,
[01:10:21] these subtle markers that end up in the
[01:10:22] content, where people are reading it and
[01:10:25] they're like, you don't care about this.
[01:10:27] And then by contrast, I will write about
[01:10:29] stuff and I'm sure you've had this
[01:10:30] experience, too, where it's like, boy,
[01:10:32] this is this is pretty niche. Like,
[01:10:34] there might only be like 12 people in
[01:10:36] the world who care about this the way I
[01:10:37] care about it, but I'm one of them and
[01:10:39] I'm going to write about it and some of
[01:10:42] those pieces will really, really
[01:10:45] resonate and just get a great response
[01:10:48] because people who you thought didn't
[01:10:50] care about it or who didn't care about
[01:10:51] it before they read your piece on it,
[01:10:53] pick it up and they're like, wow, I'm
[01:10:55] not sure I get it and I'm not sure I
[01:10:57] understand why it's important, but
[01:10:59] immediately the first paragraph I can
[01:11:01] tell this person who wrote it cares
[01:11:02] about this. And like that's something
[01:11:05] you can't get if you just use AI without
[01:11:07] doing your own work on top of it and
[01:11:10] it's not something you can get if you
[01:11:12] create the content with the intent of
[01:11:16] chasing after trends or chasing after
[01:11:17] what you perceive as being popular.
[01:11:20] >> Yeah, I think that's totally true and
[01:11:21] like there has to be some personality in
[01:11:23] it. You know, my favorite post that you
[01:11:25] write are the ones where you've got your
[01:11:26] basketball reference or and like your
[01:11:29] last one you had the you learned about
[01:11:30] the term
[01:11:32] elbow grease from your wife. Like those
[01:11:34] little anecdotes make it feel real. AI
[01:11:36] would never pull that in.
[01:11:39] So it's got to have personality. You
[01:11:41] have to find it interesting yourself
[01:11:44] and you've got to have that unique hook.
[01:11:46] >> Yeah, [snorts] I think all of those are
[01:11:47] exactly right. The the other element to
[01:11:50] this and thankfully I don't have to do
[01:11:51] this as much, but I know you do a lot
[01:11:54] which is
[01:11:56] you know, content marketing is an
[01:11:57] investment, right? I mean like it's
[01:11:59] either you
[01:12:01] doing the work yourself. Obviously AI
[01:12:03] can help us go faster, but like it can't
[01:12:06] do everything at least not well by
[01:12:08] itself.
[01:12:10] You can work with other parties, right?
[01:12:13] I mean I know you a lot of work with um
[01:12:15] like other executives inside the company
[01:12:17] trying to like extract good ideas and
[01:12:19] thoughts. A lot of the thought leaders
[01:12:20] are just sitting there with great
[01:12:22] thoughts, but they never lead with them.
[01:12:24] They never share them. So like you know,
[01:12:25] turning people into content creators
[01:12:27] inside of a company, that takes a lot of
[01:12:30] work and a lot of effort.
[01:12:31] We've been fortunate enough to work
[01:12:33] together during my time at Fintech Takes
[01:12:35] partnering on great content, but in all
[01:12:37] of those cases, it's an investment and
[01:12:40] as a marketer who has a budget, you have
[01:12:42] to show a return on that investment. I
[01:12:47] I'm fascinated by that challenge because
[01:12:50] you know, I hear anecdotally all the
[01:12:52] time like, oh, you know, I forwarded
[01:12:54] this to this person or hey, I read this
[01:12:57] and it really changed the way I think
[01:12:58] about this. So, like, I'll get little
[01:13:00] kind of kernels of anecdotal information
[01:13:02] that suggests that it's having an
[01:13:04] effect. But, if you asked me like, you
[01:13:06] know, like how did this actually
[01:13:09] meaningfully change the buying behavior
[01:13:11] of this organization?
[01:13:13] I don't know that I know the answer to
[01:13:15] that at least in a a totally
[01:13:16] quantifiable way. How do you uh think
[01:13:18] about that challenge?
[01:13:20] >> Yeah, I think that's the age-old
[01:13:22] question and will always be a challenge
[01:13:24] cuz
[01:13:25] there are some things that are clearly
[01:13:27] you can get attribution for. How many
[01:13:29] people opened the email? How many people
[01:13:30] clicked on the thing, filled out the
[01:13:32] form, that kind of stuff. But, I think
[01:13:35] the anecdotal things like, oh, I
[01:13:36] forwarded it to this guy and he talked
[01:13:38] to this guy is much harder to measure.
[01:13:41] So,
[01:13:42] you know, content tends to sit kind of
[01:13:44] in the middle of those two worlds. Some
[01:13:46] of it's very actionable and measurable.
[01:13:48] Did anyone go to the website? How many,
[01:13:52] you know, page views did we get? Things
[01:13:53] like that. But, did anyone actually
[01:13:57] comprehend what we wrote and then
[01:13:59] leverage it and use it is much harder.
[01:14:02] Um
[01:14:02] >> Did it change the way anyone thinks? You
[01:14:04] know, is like a really hard question to
[01:14:05] ask and answer.
[01:14:06] >> It's it's really hard and I think we're
[01:14:10] continually getting better at being able
[01:14:12] to capture some of that. But, some of it
[01:14:15] will always be this kind of nebulous
[01:14:17] thing. Did it work? Um I had a an old
[01:14:21] manager several jobs ago that was like,
[01:14:23] hey, how do you know if your content is
[01:14:25] good? And I was like, that is a really
[01:14:27] hard question to [laughter] answer.
[01:14:29] >> What a personal question you ask? Yeah,
[01:14:31] yeah.
[01:14:31] >> Uh it's spelled right, number one, so
[01:14:34] check. Right. Is it good? I don't know,
[01:14:36] that's so subjective. Um I think it's
[01:14:39] good, but someone else might think it's
[01:14:41] terrible.
[01:14:42] Um because cuz it's not their style. So,
[01:14:44] it's it's definitely how do you blend
[01:14:46] that art and science to say is something
[01:14:49] good or not. Um
[01:14:51] so for us it's I think when I'm making
[01:14:54] an investment in uh partnerships or
[01:14:57] content or whatever that has a dollar
[01:15:00] associated to it,
[01:15:01] >> Yeah.
[01:15:01] >> it's also thinking about is the juice
[01:15:04] worth the squeeze?
[01:15:06] Are there ways that I can take this and
[01:15:07] repurpose it in other formats to stretch
[01:15:10] that value even further? So it's it's
[01:15:14] taking a piece of content and turning it
[01:15:16] into multiple
[01:15:17] >> Mhm.
[01:15:17] >> and finding other ways to point people
[01:15:19] to it that have metrics associated with
[01:15:22] them, I think is is the key.
[01:15:25] >> That makes a lot of sense. I mean the
[01:15:28] I always sort of think about it as like
[01:15:30] you know, there's kind of two two
[01:15:32] marketing brains, right? One is like how
[01:15:34] do I sort of account for every dollar I
[01:15:36] spend? How do I think in terms of
[01:15:37] programs and reach and impact and what
[01:15:39] what we can measure and prove? And then
[01:15:41] the other marketing brain, which is also
[01:15:42] important and they kind of work
[01:15:44] synergistically when they work well, is
[01:15:45] like my job is just to throw as much
[01:15:47] value out into the market as possible
[01:15:49] and trust that it will sort of come back
[01:15:51] to us over time. And so I do think that
[01:15:53] art science mix is
[01:15:56] a really important one because yeah, I
[01:15:58] mean to your point about good, like I
[01:16:00] don't know if anyone else is going to
[01:16:01] think this good. The only way I can like
[01:16:03] justify it to myself is like I'm proud
[01:16:05] of this. I think we did really good work
[01:16:07] here and we'll just have to kind of
[01:16:08] trust that like putting that out and
[01:16:10] then to your point being smart about how
[01:16:13] we repurpose it, how we build it into
[01:16:14] campaigns, like how we utilize it is the
[01:16:17] other component to it. Um
[01:16:20] the other flip side to content marketing
[01:16:22] is event marketing, which obviously like
[01:16:25] content features very prominently in. Uh
[01:16:28] you are one of the sharper people I know
[01:16:29] as it relates to content at events. So I
[01:16:31] wanted to ask you this question.
[01:16:33] Jessica Kendall, why does most content
[01:16:36] at industry events suck so badly? And
[01:16:39] like what can be done to make it better?
[01:16:42] because I I mean I I I probably have
[01:16:45] contributed my share of bad content at
[01:16:47] events over the years. I've certainly
[01:16:49] seen a lot of it. Um I've worked with
[01:16:52] many, many event organizers on content,
[01:16:55] including yourself, by the way, in
[01:16:56] previous roles. And um it's funny
[01:16:59] because I think everyone always wants
[01:17:02] the content to be good, but it sort of
[01:17:04] ends up getting like
[01:17:06] like
[01:17:07] sort of pulled off course by other
[01:17:09] incentives or sort of structural
[01:17:11] challenges. What's been your observation
[01:17:13] about sort of in in a IRL context
[01:17:18] bringing great content to life?
[01:17:19] >> Yeah.
[01:17:21] I think
[01:17:22] the reason why some content
[01:17:24] isn't great at events,
[01:17:27] to me it comes down to three things.
[01:17:28] One,
[01:17:30] the company putting on the event is
[01:17:32] pushing their own agenda and not
[01:17:33] actually catering to the audience at
[01:17:36] hand. So, they're creating content for
[01:17:38] themselves and not their audience.
[01:17:40] >> Yep.
[01:17:40] >> Um and that gets old real fast.
[01:17:43] >> Yep. We have a we have a 3-hour-long
[01:17:45] session on how great all of our products
[01:17:46] are. Are you ready? And it's like, no, I
[01:17:48] don't want that.
[01:17:49] >> No. [laughter]
[01:17:50] No nobody wants to go to that, including
[01:17:52] the people at the company.
[01:17:53] >> Totally.
[01:17:55] >> Sponsors. Uh a lot of events are
[01:17:57] pay-for-play these days, and so
[01:18:00] whoever's got the biggest checkbook gets
[01:18:02] to pick the topic, and sometimes it's
[01:18:05] not a great topic, and it's not a good
[01:18:07] fit for the audience. So, I think
[01:18:10] when you have sponsors for events, you
[01:18:13] it needs to be a partnership with them
[01:18:15] to help them create content that people
[01:18:17] will actually enjoy. Um cuz it's a
[01:18:19] win-win for both of you. You have a
[01:18:21] better event, they get better attendance
[01:18:23] at their session. Um
[01:18:25] and then I think
[01:18:27] not taking the time to prep speakers
[01:18:31] accordingly.
[01:18:32] >> [snorts]
[01:18:32] >> Um I'm always amazed when
[01:18:35] um
[01:18:36] there's no prep call for an event. And
[01:18:38] I'm like, wait, but how do we know what
[01:18:40] we're going to talk about? And how do we
[01:18:42] get the right vibe? And um, so I think
[01:18:45] taking the time and putting in the
[01:18:47] energy to help the speakers understand
[01:18:51] who they're speaking to and help them
[01:18:53] formulate the right structure for their
[01:18:54] content
[01:18:56] um, can go a long way as well. Um, so I
[01:18:59] think to me those are the three things
[01:19:00] that kind of derail content at events.
[01:19:03] And then just over programming. When
[01:19:05] there's 8,000 to go to and you also want
[01:19:07] to network and you also want to go to
[01:19:09] the booths and you also want to eat
[01:19:10] lunch and sit down for 5 minutes, it's
[01:19:13] really hard to just consume all of that
[01:19:14] content and so you end up ignoring most
[01:19:17] of it.
[01:19:18] >> Oh, yeah. I um, it's funny the I learned
[01:19:20] that lesson the hard way actually
[01:19:22] because we were we were doing a FinTech
[01:19:25] takes event and um,
[01:19:28] I was so nervous about basically giving
[01:19:32] anyone any unscheduled time. I was like,
[01:19:34] in my head I was almost doing it the way
[01:19:36] I think about like my toddlers where I'm
[01:19:38] like, they have to be scheduled 100% of
[01:19:41] the time or they'll go crazy and they'll
[01:19:42] tear my house apart and it'll be a
[01:19:43] disaster. And so I'm like thinking like,
[01:19:46] okay, they're going to go from this and
[01:19:47] then we'll give them a 15-minute break,
[01:19:48] but then we'll be right back into
[01:19:49] content, blah, blah, blah. And uh, one
[01:19:51] of the best suggestions I got from my
[01:19:53] team was like, they're like, this is all
[01:19:55] great,
[01:19:56] but remove like 40% of it and just let
[01:19:59] it breathe. Like just give it room to
[01:20:01] let it breathe, kind of trust the people
[01:20:04] who are there to like kind of
[01:20:06] wander into organic conversations with
[01:20:08] each other and find weird little kind of
[01:20:11] side quests and things to do. And uh,
[01:20:14] that turned out to be amazing advice
[01:20:16] because I do think you're right. Like we
[01:20:18] we tend to over schedule things so much
[01:20:21] out of a out of a sincere desire to like
[01:20:24] give people as much good content as
[01:20:25] possible, but you also have to remember,
[01:20:28] and I even remember this when I was a
[01:20:30] teacher, like you have to let it
[01:20:31] breathe. You have like these are human
[01:20:33] beings on the other side of it. They're
[01:20:34] not just like LLM's that you're throwing
[01:20:37] content into in order to train the next
[01:20:39] version of a model. Like these are
[01:20:41] people who need time to think and
[01:20:43] process and walk outside and see the sun
[01:20:45] and talk to each other. And so I think
[01:20:47] that's a huge huge component of it. Um
[01:20:50] Jessica, before I let you go, can I do a
[01:20:51] quick lightning round with you?
[01:20:53] >> Sure. Absolutely.
[01:20:54] >> Okay.
[01:20:55] Um first question
[01:20:58] you are among your many gifts a very
[01:21:01] very good editor. Uh which is a
[01:21:04] different skill set than
[01:21:07] uh a writer, although you're also an
[01:21:08] excellent writer. I I think editing is
[01:21:11] like one of those things that unless
[01:21:13] you've really spent dedicated time on
[01:21:16] it, you don't realize how hard it is to
[01:21:18] do well. And in particular
[01:21:20] um
[01:21:21] going to your analogy of like AI, if
[01:21:23] you've ever had to interns working for
[01:21:25] you, like you'll want to kill yourself
[01:21:27] editing their work. Like you're just
[01:21:29] like, oh my god, like I I could have
[01:21:32] written this
[01:21:33] 20 times and each one of them would have
[01:21:35] been better than the time it took me to
[01:21:36] edit this once and to try to fix it and
[01:21:38] give feedback. Um what what's one piece
[01:21:41] of advice you would give to people who
[01:21:43] want to level up their editing
[01:21:46] abilities, particularly in this age of
[01:21:47] AI where we're all kind of editors now?
[01:21:50] >> Um look for too much repetition and
[01:21:54] really long sentences.
[01:21:55] >> Okay.
[01:21:56] >> If you fix that, it'll fix a lot of
[01:21:58] things in your content.
[01:22:01] >> Okay. I like it. Um I will say many of
[01:22:04] the pieces I've written that I've been
[01:22:05] most proud of were edited at one point
[01:22:07] by Jessica Kendall. So I appreciate your
[01:22:09] editing work. Um
[01:22:11] all right, question number two.
[01:22:14] Uh your personal
[01:22:16] uh content and influencer strategy on
[01:22:19] LinkedIn seems to rely a lot on having a
[01:22:22] purse that is somehow related to the
[01:22:25] place that you are going and then taking
[01:22:27] a picture of that purse beautifully sort
[01:22:29] of backgrounded
[01:22:31] with like a kind of a foreground and a
[01:22:33] background. Can you explain how you
[01:22:35] landed on this
[01:22:37] LinkedIn influencer content strategy?
[01:22:41] >> [laughter]
[01:22:41] >> Absolutely. So, I was actually playing
[01:22:44] around with serious content and fun
[01:22:46] content on LinkedIn to see what
[01:22:48] performed [snorts] better.
[01:22:49] >> Okay.
[01:22:49] >> And if you guys go back through my
[01:22:51] LinkedIn like 2 months ago, you'll see a
[01:22:53] picture of a squirrel cuz I have a whole
[01:22:56] bunch of squirrels who live in my
[01:22:57] backyard. And that that dang squirrel
[01:23:00] got 10x more impressions, views,
[01:23:03] whatever metric you want than anything
[01:23:05] else I'd posted in like months. And so I
[01:23:08] was like, "Okay, bring it. The fun
[01:23:10] content is working." And And for those
[01:23:12] who know me well, I have an extensive
[01:23:14] purse collection.
[01:23:16] And so one of my friends was joking,
[01:23:17] "Why don't you just do like a series on
[01:23:19] your purses?" And I said, "Why not?" So,
[01:23:22] that's what I've been trying. I've been
[01:23:23] doing it for like a month and a half
[01:23:24] now. Every Friday, it's paws for a
[01:23:27] purse.
[01:23:28] And because I have so many, it's very
[01:23:29] easy to connect it to wherever I am or
[01:23:32] whatever I'm doing that week. So, it's
[01:23:33] been fun. It's been really fun. And it's
[01:23:36] still outperforming all of my
[01:23:37] business-related content.
[01:23:39] >> Uh yep, I can again plus one that answer
[01:23:42] by saying that when I do silly things
[01:23:45] through the newsletter, I'm shocked at
[01:23:47] how well they perform. And I'm like
[01:23:48] literally like I'm just taking a break
[01:23:50] because I can't do serious fintech
[01:23:52] analyst work all the time. And so I'm
[01:23:54] just going to
[01:23:55] rank fintech logos or compare fintech
[01:23:57] companies to NBA players or whatever the
[01:24:00] the
[01:24:01] things is that week. And people go crazy
[01:24:04] for it. So, don't underestimate fun is I
[01:24:07] think a good lesson.
[01:24:09] >> Exactly. Embrace the weird. It performs
[01:24:11] well.
[01:24:12] >> Embrace the weird. Embrace the whimsy.
[01:24:14] And then Jessica, speaking of NBA before
[01:24:16] I let you go, game four is tonight. San
[01:24:20] Antonio Spurs, your hometown team
[01:24:22] against the evil New York Knicks. Um,
[01:24:25] I'm not going to ask you to like tempt
[01:24:28] the basketball gods, but just
[01:24:30] I want to check in. How are you feeling
[01:24:33] right now?
[01:24:34] >> You know, it it's a tough series. All
[01:24:37] three games have been very close. Spurs
[01:24:40] have come out strong in all three games
[01:24:42] and the first two just unfortunately
[01:24:43] weren't able to to bring it home, but
[01:24:46] the last game they they figured
[01:24:48] something out. So, I think
[01:24:49] >> too.
[01:24:50] >> if they continue that trajectory,
[01:24:53] tonight will be interesting.
[01:24:55] I know the stat is no one has ever won
[01:24:58] with 2-0
[01:25:01] two losses at home to start this Yeah,
[01:25:03] so
[01:25:05] >> I mean, but there's a first time for
[01:25:06] everything. Um
[01:25:07] >> They used to say no one came back from
[01:25:08] 3-1 and then the Cavs did it. Like it
[01:25:10] happens. These things happen.
[01:25:12] >> I am hopeful, but also realistic. It's a
[01:25:15] very young team.
[01:25:16] >> It is.
[01:25:16] >> Uh the Spurs are great, but they're
[01:25:18] super young. So, if if not this year,
[01:25:21] even though I hope they do it,
[01:25:23] then expect us to be back.
[01:25:25] >> I would rate that answer as being a very
[01:25:29] low offense to the basketball gods. I
[01:25:30] think you played that very safe. Uh I I
[01:25:32] don't think you you caused any karma
[01:25:34] issues at all. Uh I will say for my own
[01:25:37] self, I am rooting for the Spurs if for
[01:25:40] no other reason than for a nice long
[01:25:42] series, uh but also because we're
[01:25:45] friends and I know that they're your
[01:25:46] team. So,
[01:25:48] uh go Spurs. Uh Jessica Kendall, thank
[01:25:51] you so much for coming on the podcast. I
[01:25:52] appreciate it.
[01:25:53] >> Thanks Alex for having me and go Spurs
[01:25:55] go.
[01:25:57] >> Okay. Well, uh last but not least for
[01:26:00] today's podcast, we have a quick
[01:26:01] conversation with the co-founder and CEO
[01:26:05] of Workweek, Adam Ryan. Um I am asked
[01:26:09] constantly how I create so much great
[01:26:12] content and the answer is a company that
[01:26:15] you may or may not know, but who is my
[01:26:17] employer, uh Workweek, which is a B2B
[01:26:19] media company that the Fintech Takes
[01:26:22] Network, the Fintech Takes newsletter,
[01:26:24] the Fintech Takes podcast are all built
[01:26:25] on top of and enabled by same thing for
[01:26:28] Fintech Takes Banking and my colleague
[01:26:30] Kia. We work for Workweek, so we work
[01:26:32] for Adam.
[01:26:33] As you'll hear in this discussion, Adam
[01:26:35] is incredibly thoughtful about all
[01:26:37] things relating to basically how we make
[01:26:40] B2B media better and how we make B2B
[01:26:43] marketers lives easier. So, we talk a
[01:26:46] little bit about the challenge of
[01:26:49] creating authoritative content in the
[01:26:51] B2B. We talk about how measurement has
[01:26:54] been the bane of B2B marketers'
[01:26:56] existence for a long time, and we plug
[01:26:59] some new stuff that Workweek is doing
[01:27:01] that I hope any B2B marketers who are
[01:27:03] listening to this episode definitely
[01:27:05] take advantage of. So, here is the final
[01:27:07] segment of the podcast with Adam Ryan of
[01:27:10] Workweek.
[01:27:12] Okay, making his inaugural Fintech Takes
[01:27:15] podcast debut, Adam Ryan. Thanks for
[01:27:18] coming on.
[01:27:19] >> Long time first time. Listen to the
[01:27:21] podcast just about every single one,
[01:27:24] maybe for the last 3 years,
[01:27:26] including all the offshoots. So, I'm
[01:27:28] happy to be on, Alex.
[01:27:30] >> Well, now I feel bad that I've subjected
[01:27:32] you to so much Fintech content.
[01:27:35] You know, it's funny, I
[01:27:37] I think that most folks listening, I
[01:27:40] would venture to guess,
[01:27:42] probably don't know what a Workweek is,
[01:27:45] which is an experience that I have a lot
[01:27:47] when I am describing
[01:27:49] what I do and how I do it. And of
[01:27:51] course, that's by design. So, maybe as a
[01:27:54] little bit of context,
[01:27:56] um, explain kind of the premise of
[01:27:58] Workweek, the whole kind of people
[01:28:00] follow people aspect, and how that
[01:28:02] differs from sort of your average B2B
[01:28:05] media company.
[01:28:06] >> Yeah, 4 years ago, a little bit more
[01:28:08] than, we saw that in consumer media, uh,
[01:28:15] creators like were doing really well
[01:28:17] with beauty and fashion and a bunch of
[01:28:20] other categories that, you know, it's
[01:28:22] nice on TikTok, but on, uh, in B2B
[01:28:26] we think people also follow people, uh,
[01:28:28] but there was no
[01:28:29] Kylie Jenner of FinTech until Alex
[01:28:32] Johnson.
[01:28:32] >> No, no, no, no, no, no. Like if I if I
[01:28:35] had the beauty and fashion sense and
[01:28:37] beautiful skin, that would be a good
[01:28:39] analogy.
[01:28:40] >> As as as as a long-time watcher, the
[01:28:42] haircut is just fantastic. Uh, but I,
[01:28:45] uh, and so this trend around, uh, people
[01:28:48] follow people in in B2B, uh, was
[01:28:51] something that just wasn't being focused
[01:28:52] on enough. So, a lot of the platforms,
[01:28:54] the media companies weren't building the
[01:28:56] right tooling and support, we believed,
[01:28:58] for creators like yourself to to do this
[01:29:01] more full-time and, um, and to really
[01:29:03] start to to get their insights and
[01:29:05] experience out there in the world. And
[01:29:06] so, that's what we focused on and today,
[01:29:09] uh, that the way that shows up is that
[01:29:11] we have five different, uh, of the some
[01:29:14] of the largest, uh,
[01:29:16] networks, uh, out there that really look
[01:29:18] like communities. So, FinTech Takes
[01:29:19] Network is one of them, of course, and
[01:29:21] get to work with people like yourself
[01:29:23] day in, day out.
[01:29:24] >> Yeah, it's fantastic and it's, um, it's
[01:29:27] one of those models that is, um, really
[01:29:29] interesting because, yeah, when people
[01:29:31] are like, "I I don't know Workweek. What
[01:29:33] is Workweek?" I'm like, "Exactly. Yes,
[01:29:35] it's working. This is fantastic." And
[01:29:36] so, the the it's fun to give people a
[01:29:39] little bit of a peek behind the curtain
[01:29:42] in terms of like how operationally we do
[01:29:44] everything that we do here. And it's
[01:29:45] it's interesting because the theme of
[01:29:48] this episode and the previous segments
[01:29:50] we've had in this episode are all about
[01:29:52] basically why B2B marketing is terrible
[01:29:55] uh, and how it can be better. And, um, I
[01:29:57] mean, you, I know, have worked in and
[01:29:58] around B2B marketing and sales for a
[01:30:00] long time. I've worked in B2B marketing.
[01:30:03] I mean, one of the things that, and this
[01:30:05] kind of goes to the core premise you
[01:30:07] were just describing that's always sort
[01:30:09] of been a challenge is there's this this
[01:30:11] huge gap between like how people who
[01:30:14] actually know how this industry work
[01:30:16] talk and think and solve problems and
[01:30:19] then what you see when you look at a
[01:30:22] sales deck or a PowerPoint presentation
[01:30:25] or a webinar or read a blog post like
[01:30:28] there's just this like chasm between
[01:30:30] those two things and so you know I what
[01:30:32] I've always noticed with like operators
[01:30:34] or you know B2B like buyers in financial
[01:30:37] services is they'll sort of like wade
[01:30:41] through all of the sort of like it's
[01:30:43] it's a disservice to call some of that
[01:30:45] stuff even 100-level content like and
[01:30:47] then they'll finally like find someone
[01:30:49] at the company they can talk to and they
[01:30:50] can talk shop with and like exchange
[01:30:52] messages but that's like 6 months into
[01:30:55] the sales cycle by the time you get down
[01:30:57] to that level and find someone who knows
[01:30:59] what they're talking about and it feels
[01:31:00] like one of the big changes that
[01:31:03] Workweek is starting to catalyze and
[01:31:05] that will continue hopefully to to
[01:31:07] spread and become more common is like
[01:31:09] dragging that expertise and that
[01:31:11] operator perspective up to the top of
[01:31:14] the funnel and kind of closing that gap.
[01:31:16] I know you spend a lot of time thinking
[01:31:17] about that gap. Can you talk a little
[01:31:19] bit about like that and what that is and
[01:31:21] why it's so hard to close?
[01:31:22] >> Yeah, there's there's
[01:31:24] two kind of like I think direct causes.
[01:31:27] One
[01:31:28] uh really great practitioners that know
[01:31:31] what they're talking about have not had
[01:31:34] the opportunity to create enough content
[01:31:35] and make that mainstream. And I think
[01:31:37] that's the number one is like when
[01:31:39] you're having when the marketing teams
[01:31:41] are responsible for the vast majority of
[01:31:44] the content that's out there in an
[01:31:45] industry it's going to be simplified
[01:31:48] down.
[01:31:48] >> Yeah,
[01:31:49] it just has to be.
[01:31:50] >> it has to be. And instead I think
[01:31:52] flipping the narrative where having
[01:31:54] practitioners start to create more
[01:31:56] content you know, I like to use it like
[01:31:58] you don't have to explain the acronym.
[01:32:00] Like you can like go through the motions
[01:32:02] and like your your audience knows what
[01:32:04] you're talking about or things like
[01:32:05] that.
[01:32:05] >> you say that because I realized I only
[01:32:07] ever use the acronym. I never spell it
[01:32:09] out, and partially it's cuz I want to
[01:32:11] signal to people like, "Look, you know I
[01:32:13] know, so let's just not even waste
[01:32:15] column inches on that."
[01:32:16] >> how it should be. And I And I think
[01:32:17] that's like that's how you move up this
[01:32:19] market though of people actually
[01:32:21] starting to use the language that I
[01:32:23] matters and not just kind of marketing
[01:32:25] fluff. And so that's that's one. And
[01:32:26] then the other one is that uh there's
[01:32:30] this this complexity of buying,
[01:32:32] particularly if you have a product that
[01:32:34] is many months or even years long to
[01:32:36] sell, you you typically have so many
[01:32:39] stakeholders that it's like the
[01:32:40] telephone game. And like by the end it's
[01:32:43] just like, "Hi, we we fintech, we sell
[01:32:45] this thing." And it's like that, you
[01:32:47] know, and it's like, "No, it's not you
[01:32:48] know." And there's so much more there,
[01:32:49] but it gets lost in the game, and I
[01:32:51] think that's the that's the opportunity
[01:32:53] to kind of up-level, I think, the
[01:32:55] industry is how do we have better
[01:32:56] marketing more consistently and then
[01:32:58] better voices that know how to actually
[01:33:00] talk about it in the way that the
[01:33:01] customers do.
[01:33:02] >> Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and and on
[01:33:04] this podcast I talk to folks who have
[01:33:07] worked in uh these roles and have
[01:33:10] actually partnered with fintech takes in
[01:33:12] some cases. But can you talk a little
[01:33:13] bit about like
[01:33:15] within the universe of companies that
[01:33:18] are trying to reach these very sort of
[01:33:20] senior buyers,
[01:33:22] of all the companies that are trying to
[01:33:23] do that, like I I think over the last 3
[01:33:25] years we found kind of a subset who
[01:33:28] really understand kind of like
[01:33:30] Workweek's model and like how we're
[01:33:32] trying to sort of help in in the ways
[01:33:34] that you're describing,
[01:33:35] what do those companies, in your
[01:33:37] experience, cuz you you sit a lot on the
[01:33:39] sales side and see sort of those
[01:33:40] interactions, what do those companies
[01:33:42] have in common in terms of like what
[01:33:44] they're looking for or how they're
[01:33:45] thinking about B2B marketing marketing
[01:33:48] differently than your average company?
[01:33:50] >> I'd say they're self-aware. They
[01:33:53] uh like and meaning one of the things
[01:33:55] that happens in B2B is that because it's
[01:33:57] slightly more complicated it's not
[01:33:59] you're not selling you know
[01:34:01] eyeliner or a pair of jeans where
[01:34:03] everyone kind of understands it. When
[01:34:05] you add complexity all of a sudden
[01:34:07] everyone stops thinking and acting like
[01:34:09] a human.
[01:34:10] >> Yeah and and that
[01:34:11] >> That's been a theme in this episode
[01:34:12] actually.
[01:34:13] >> And and and that's this this lack of
[01:34:15] self-awareness of like do you actually
[01:34:18] talk like that? Do you actually like
[01:34:20] want to communicate? Do you would you
[01:34:23] buy that way? And I so I think the
[01:34:25] people that we've been able to work with
[01:34:26] are really self-aware that like to reach
[01:34:28] our customers in the ways that you want
[01:34:30] to do it we need to market and sell in a
[01:34:33] way that we believe we would do it. And
[01:34:37] most of those folks would be like well
[01:34:39] I would love to have people like Alex
[01:34:42] and other trusted voices in the space
[01:34:44] help have our messaging in the tone and
[01:34:46] the trust and the voice that he has cuz
[01:34:48] that's what influences me. And I think
[01:34:50] that's something that a lot of the
[01:34:51] partners that we work with have and I
[01:34:53] think you know kind of your point about
[01:34:55] work week we we purposely stay out of
[01:34:57] the limelight on on the community
[01:35:00] forefront and the creator forefront.
[01:35:02] It's it's it's not our lane to
[01:35:04] necessarily be known there but we we
[01:35:06] build our brand for B2B marketers and
[01:35:09] fintech etc. And so that's a lot of the
[01:35:12] conversations that we have with them is
[01:35:14] you know let's start acting like a human
[01:35:15] and start using voices that are trusted
[01:35:17] like you would do any other way.
[01:35:19] >> So I mean that that's a good way of
[01:35:21] describing sort of who who the Work Week
[01:35:23] model in the early years sort of
[01:35:25] selected for was people who kind of
[01:35:27] naturally thought this way and you know
[01:35:29] it's interesting because
[01:35:31] having sat in that chair on that side of
[01:35:33] it and like written a check for you know
[01:35:35] doing these types of engagements or
[01:35:36] partnerships
[01:35:38] it's funny I I sort of joke sometimes
[01:35:39] about like the two brains that content
[01:35:42] marketers have right where it's like the
[01:35:44] one brain is okay I know that my job is
[01:35:48] to just create good things in
[01:35:50] partnership with awesome people to put
[01:35:52] those out into the market and not expect
[01:35:54] anything in return and just add value,
[01:35:56] add value, add value all the time. And
[01:35:59] over time, if we add enough value, that
[01:36:01] will accrue back to our brand, we'll
[01:36:04] have a good reputation, it'll help us
[01:36:05] recruit better people, it'll make sales
[01:36:07] cycle shorter, better, we'll be able to
[01:36:09] preempt sales cycles entirely, it'll
[01:36:12] feed into our own marketing and the work
[01:36:14] we do to tell our story, like it'll all
[01:36:16] just compound in a really valuable way.
[01:36:18] But, it's going to happen over a long
[01:36:20] period of time.
[01:36:22] Uh it's going to be quite an investment
[01:36:24] both internally as well as like our
[01:36:26] budget for working with third parties
[01:36:28] and partners. And and this is the
[01:36:30] crucial thing that gets to the second
[01:36:32] brain that marketers have, it
[01:36:34] historically has been really hard to
[01:36:35] measure.
[01:36:36] >> Correct.
[01:36:36] >> And, you know, the the thing that's
[01:36:38] funny is and I sometimes joke that like
[01:36:40] um
[01:36:41] you know, like Meta kind of ruined
[01:36:44] marketers' lives for a little bit there
[01:36:45] because it was like for a second it was
[01:36:47] so easy to measure a certain type of
[01:36:49] marketing spend that it sort of like was
[01:36:51] like, well, we should have the same type
[01:36:53] of reporting on everything. But of
[01:36:55] course, the infrastructure to do that
[01:36:57] wasn't available everywhere at all
[01:36:59] times. And, you know, like I I feel for
[01:37:03] a lot of the partners that we work with
[01:37:05] where they're like, I know this is the
[01:37:06] right thing to do, but my life would
[01:37:08] just be a thousand times easier if I
[01:37:10] could also prove that this is the right
[01:37:12] thing to do.
[01:37:13] I know you obsess over this problem.
[01:37:16] Talk a little bit about that and maybe
[01:37:19] talk a little bit about a solution we
[01:37:20] might have that that to this that is
[01:37:22] sort of innovative and unique.
[01:37:24] >> I I appreciate you bringing this up
[01:37:26] because I one of the stats that stands
[01:37:29] out when we talk with B2B marketers,
[01:37:31] it's uh the average tenure for an an
[01:37:34] executive B2B marketer is 18 months. And
[01:37:36] one of my one of my questions to follow
[01:37:38] up that is like, how long is your sales
[01:37:40] cycle? And most of them don't even last
[01:37:42] a full sales cycle. And so to your point
[01:37:44] of like making the right decisions and
[01:37:46] doing the thing that they believe will
[01:37:47] work. They don't have time to more or
[01:37:49] less can they show it in the short term.
[01:37:50] They don't even they're not even going
[01:37:51] to be tenured long enough on average to
[01:37:53] prove it. And and so this was
[01:37:56] um
[01:37:57] this is not new and you know it to your
[01:37:59] point around meta, meta's had huge
[01:38:02] success because with you know all the
[01:38:05] Shopify boom, those two things grew
[01:38:07] together because
[01:38:08] the sales cycle of a consumer product is
[01:38:11] a click away and then you can prove it
[01:38:12] and it's great. Um you know banking and
[01:38:15] fintech products don't exactly align to
[01:38:17] that same cycle and
[01:38:19] >> them on Shopify as much as I wish you
[01:38:20] could, yeah.
[01:38:21] >> Uh not exactly a clickbait headline away
[01:38:23] from from winning. Um and so the the
[01:38:26] issue was
[01:38:28] the the what you're trying to do during
[01:38:31] that process is educate your customer.
[01:38:33] Not just about what feature it is, but
[01:38:35] what problems they have. Sometimes they
[01:38:36] don't even understand, especially in a
[01:38:38] regulated market, of what's changing.
[01:38:40] And for a content marketer, that is like
[01:38:42] what your job is is to start to move
[01:38:44] that customer down the journey of once
[01:38:46] they finally do reach out your sales
[01:38:49] team doesn't have to explain the
[01:38:51] problem, sell it. They're already there.
[01:38:53] And that journey, I kind of call it the
[01:38:56] hidden sales cycle. It's like before it
[01:38:58] ever shows up in the in salesforce in
[01:39:00] your CRM of like
[01:39:02] where they're marketing and there was no
[01:39:04] way to really show those those touch
[01:39:06] points besides potentially like a page
[01:39:08] view visit on your blog which you know
[01:39:12] we all know that's like not necessarily
[01:39:14] the most common way that people consume
[01:39:17] content all the time and um what we
[01:39:20] wanted to do was recognize that
[01:39:23] newsletters like yours are some of the
[01:39:26] most popular ways for these buyers to
[01:39:28] actually understand what's going on,
[01:39:30] what they should be doing, and within
[01:39:32] those ads, you know you
[01:39:34] side off on
[01:39:35] a hundred to hundred fifty word ad every
[01:39:37] single fintech takes and it's it's
[01:39:39] through your voice, it's through your
[01:39:41] lens, you give feedback to make sure
[01:39:43] that to your point it's in the language
[01:39:45] and
[01:39:46] at the end of that we think when someone
[01:39:47] reads that ad, whether they clicked or
[01:39:49] not,
[01:39:51] they moved one step closer to that
[01:39:52] process. That hidden sales cycle is now
[01:39:54] beginning and
[01:39:55] the solution we came up with was to be
[01:39:58] able to start to show that. So today
[01:40:01] if B2B marketer, you know, wants to
[01:40:04] sponsor your newsletter,
[01:40:06] what we've been able to do is create an
[01:40:07] identity graph as someone opens that
[01:40:10] newsletter, reads that ad, we can send
[01:40:12] that signal to their CRM on the account
[01:40:14] level and then if someone clicks that
[01:40:16] ad, we can send that signal as well to
[01:40:18] their CRM. And so what's happening, the
[01:40:21] outcome of that the last 18 months we've
[01:40:22] been trying kind of testing it in in
[01:40:24] beta is that sales is taking sometimes
[01:40:27] three or four times more credit than
[01:40:30] they deserve compared to the marketer.
[01:40:32] And I think if we flip that, I don't
[01:40:35] think that marketer is going to get
[01:40:36] fired at 18 months and I think they
[01:40:38] start to actually be able to prove the
[01:40:40] value of the decisions that they've been
[01:40:41] making and and that's really what what
[01:40:43] we've been we've been focused on
[01:40:45] building with with our partner platform.
[01:40:47] >> Yeah, it's hugely powerful because and
[01:40:50] and you and I joke about this a lot
[01:40:52] just via text sometimes where it's like
[01:40:55] I'll share this sort of anecdote that I
[01:40:56] hear, right? Cuz you hear things, right?
[01:40:58] Like in the industry it's a small
[01:40:59] industry and so so-and-so will say, "Oh
[01:41:02] yeah, I forwarded this to this person."
[01:41:03] And then that'll get back to the partner
[01:41:05] that worked with us on this thing and
[01:41:07] oh, we got great feedback or someone
[01:41:08] called us out of the blue because they
[01:41:10] read this thing. And so like anecdotally
[01:41:13] I would know that these things were
[01:41:15] happening, but like the anecdote is like
[01:41:18] half of 1% of the like influencer reach
[01:41:21] it actually has and like the anecdote is
[01:41:23] the only thing that I and more
[01:41:24] importantly the B2B marketer that we
[01:41:27] were working with would have to go on
[01:41:29] like the impact of it. And so like being
[01:41:31] able to show the actual like reach and
[01:41:35] influence in a measurable way, I mean,
[01:41:38] not only does it make B2B marketers'
[01:41:40] lives easier, which I think is great,
[01:41:42] but I think it also, and this kind of
[01:41:43] goes to your point about the hidden
[01:41:44] sales cycle, it kind of illuminates like
[01:41:46] how your buyers behave. I think in a way
[01:41:49] that is like very unusual. I mean, I I
[01:41:51] When I remember when I worked in B2B
[01:41:53] marketing full-time, like that was that
[01:41:56] was the thing we were constantly kind of
[01:41:57] puzzling over is like we know this thing
[01:42:00] exists once there's an RFP. But, we also
[01:42:03] know that they didn't create the RFP
[01:42:05] from scratch just sitting down. This is
[01:42:07] pre-AI, kids. So, like there was no
[01:42:09] cloud to help you design an RFP. And so,
[01:42:11] like they had to do research, they had
[01:42:13] to like talk to people, they had to go
[01:42:15] to conferences, they had to make calls,
[01:42:16] they had to share information with peers
[01:42:18] in the market. Like information was
[01:42:21] being exchanged and learning was
[01:42:22] happening. And we felt, once we ramped
[01:42:25] up our B2B marketing efforts, that we
[01:42:26] were contributing to that and hopefully
[01:42:28] shaping it in a way that was useful to
[01:42:29] us. And again, occasionally,
[01:42:31] anecdotally, we would see things like My
[01:42:33] favorite was when you'd see a very
[01:42:35] unique way that we phrased some idea in
[01:42:37] the market. And then that would show up
[01:42:39] in the wording of a question in an RFP.
[01:42:41] And it's like, "Okay, there there we
[01:42:42] are. There's our fingerprints. I can see
[01:42:44] us there." But again, that was like one
[01:42:46] little anecdotal sliver of evidence that
[01:42:49] we were having an impact. It couldn't
[01:42:50] like graph the whole thing.
[01:42:52] >> No. And some of the people that we've
[01:42:54] worked with for years, like their
[01:42:56] instincts are so right. They're like, "I
[01:42:58] know it. I know it works. I can't prove
[01:43:01] it, though." Like
[01:43:03] And this is this is here I think to your
[01:43:05] point, it's a little bit of product
[01:43:06] marketing, like understanding the
[01:43:07] journey. And I so many CMOs that we meet
[01:43:11] with and talk with, you know, they meet
[01:43:12] with their board. And the board's like,
[01:43:13] "Well, pull up your Salesforce. What's
[01:43:15] the What's the sales cycle?" And sales
[01:43:17] cycle in Salesforce says, you know, "90
[01:43:19] days." And everyone in the room's like,
[01:43:21] "No one makes this decision in 90 days.
[01:43:24] It started way before then." And so,
[01:43:26] this is this is that issue. And now, you
[01:43:28] know, what we want to be able to do is
[01:43:31] send way more signals to that CRM where
[01:43:34] that marketer now actually has an
[01:43:35] understanding on the account level like
[01:43:37] hey this person has started this and
[01:43:39] over time when you can map that towards
[01:43:42] what that buying journey looks like you
[01:43:43] will start to see your win rate
[01:43:45] increasing potentially or your sales
[01:43:48] cycle decreasing and and that's kind of
[01:43:50] the results that we're having and I
[01:43:51] think the the flip side of it too is
[01:43:53] it's it's a wonderful thing for
[01:43:56] marketers to be able to start to
[01:43:58] recognize the creators that they want to
[01:44:00] work with that have the best and kind of
[01:44:03] best influence and most trust it there's
[01:44:05] no hiding and I think that's you know
[01:44:07] we've always kind of taken approach of
[01:44:09] be as honest as we possibly can and and
[01:44:11] advertising that's not always the case
[01:44:13] and
[01:44:14] with you know what what this does is we
[01:44:17] always believe that there's been
[01:44:18] hundreds of millions of dollars of
[01:44:20] revenue influence from your newsletter
[01:44:22] and now we'll be able to show that and I
[01:44:24] think that's the that's the opportunity
[01:44:25] for B2B marketing in the future is how
[01:44:27] do we how do we start to really prove
[01:44:29] that hidden sales cycle in the content
[01:44:30] that that lives there.
[01:44:32] >> Yeah well and I I think the other point
[01:44:34] you're kind of hitting on that's
[01:44:36] important to call out is and I I say
[01:44:38] this constantly and people are sort of
[01:44:40] surprised sometimes when I say
[01:44:42] especially if you're like newer to the
[01:44:43] industry it's not that big an industry
[01:44:45] right and so I think the other thing
[01:44:47] that I run into a lot with this is you
[01:44:50] know like well how many people are on
[01:44:52] the subscriber list how many people are
[01:44:54] coming to the event how many people are
[01:44:55] doing X Y or Z and that's understandable
[01:44:57] because that's how we are trained to
[01:44:59] think but it's not really the right
[01:45:02] question because the number of people
[01:45:04] who make these decisions it's a very
[01:45:06] very small group and so the question
[01:45:07] should be who subscribes who is coming
[01:45:11] to the newsletter who engages with the
[01:45:12] content you know who forwards it to
[01:45:14] someone else like the who matters a lot
[01:45:16] more than like how big the audience is
[01:45:19] and I I guess and I know you think about
[01:45:20] this a lot like in the age of AI I think
[01:45:23] that's just going to become magnified
[01:45:24] right like 100% like like like scale is
[01:45:28] going to be so easy to achieve in terms
[01:45:30] of creating content, publishing content,
[01:45:33] building a list that has 150,000 names
[01:45:37] on it, but you don't know like the
[01:45:39] actual impact it's happening and the
[01:45:41] actual industry isn't getting any
[01:45:43] bigger. It's just the sort of shadow
[01:45:45] sort of like
[01:45:47] like replica of the industry that we
[01:45:49] sort of see from a marketing lens gets
[01:45:50] bigger and faster because of AI, but the
[01:45:53] actual thing is still the same size and
[01:45:54] so I feel like
[01:45:55] the need to focus on that who and that
[01:45:58] core of the industry that makes these
[01:45:59] decisions is just going to become more
[01:46:01] important.
[01:46:02] >> And and the people that create content
[01:46:04] for that group
[01:46:06] this rewards that behavior. And I think
[01:46:08] it was something that, you know, we've
[01:46:10] always talked about with all the
[01:46:11] creators that we're with Workweek is
[01:46:12] like it's it's
[01:46:15] it's okay to create content that appeals
[01:46:17] to a small group of people
[01:46:18] and because we've always kind of
[01:46:20] emphasized this who and it's really easy
[01:46:23] to create
[01:46:24] kind of viral content that appeals to
[01:46:26] everyone and it feels gratifying and
[01:46:28] that's how the system was made. And you
[01:46:30] know, if you're a marketer, the
[01:46:31] benchmarks and newsletters have always
[01:46:33] been, well, how big's the list? What's
[01:46:34] the open rate and what's the
[01:46:35] click-through rate? And all three of
[01:46:36] those metrics are not
[01:46:39] actually tangible in B2B advertising.
[01:46:41] They're they're not helpful when you're
[01:46:42] thinking about who your customer is. And
[01:46:44] so that's the that's the change that we,
[01:46:47] you know, we're making. We're educating
[01:46:48] our customers on that and
[01:46:50] it's a it's a change in it's a total
[01:46:52] change, but marketers understand.
[01:46:55] >> They're excited, I think, to actually
[01:46:56] have an opportunity to do it. And for
[01:46:58] creators, I I hope it changes this kind
[01:47:01] of flips the script of this reward
[01:47:03] system where like, oh, I have to like
[01:47:04] kind of dumb things down because I get
[01:47:06] the most feedback. And it's like,
[01:47:08] actually, when you, you know, don't
[01:47:10] explain the acronym, sometimes it it
[01:47:12] works a lot better.
[01:47:14] >> Yeah, well, I can tell you, I mean, just
[01:47:15] from a creator perspective, uh
[01:47:17] creating content that like hits with
[01:47:20] that small group of people, there's
[01:47:22] nothing more satisfying in the world
[01:47:23] than that. So, it's like kind of like
[01:47:25] there's like the cheap form of dopamine,
[01:47:27] which is like hacking Twitter or
[01:47:28] LinkedIn and getting a bunch of viral
[01:47:30] things. And then there's like the deeper
[01:47:32] form of dopamine, where it's like
[01:47:34] someone you respect and are maybe a
[01:47:36] little afraid of, quite frankly, reads a
[01:47:38] thing and writes back and you see like
[01:47:39] I've had this experience multiple times
[01:47:41] where you get the email in your inbox
[01:47:44] and it's like from this person and
[01:47:45] you're like, "Oh my god, like I'm like
[01:47:46] nervous that I have this email in my
[01:47:48] inbox." And then you open it and they're
[01:47:50] like, "I really liked this." Or I
[01:47:52] thought this was interesting, but I
[01:47:53] disagreed here, but here's why. And
[01:47:54] they're like engaging with you in a
[01:47:56] substantial way. Like
[01:47:59] cultivating that sort of back and forth
[01:48:02] and that sort of connectivity in the
[01:48:03] industry,
[01:48:05] it's what all good creators want to do,
[01:48:07] but uh to your point, the infrastructure
[01:48:10] surrounding all of this, which governs
[01:48:12] the incentives under which we're all
[01:48:14] paid and how we make money and how we
[01:48:16] help uh the partners we work with make
[01:48:18] money, like that has to work, too. Or we
[01:48:21] can't do that. We can't incentivize
[01:48:23] that. So, I'm I'm very excited that that
[01:48:26] infrastructure is finally being built. I
[01:48:28] guess the last thing, Adam, I mean,
[01:48:29] you're a sales guy, so let me give you a
[01:48:31] a a pitch for you to to sell something.
[01:48:34] Uh you talked about sort of catalyzing
[01:48:36] this change in the industry and wanting
[01:48:37] people to sort of um start to talk this
[01:48:40] way more and think this way more. We're
[01:48:42] going to be doing this uh in person with
[01:48:44] folks uh later this year um in Austin,
[01:48:48] Texas in late August, which is where the
[01:48:51] sales job comes in for you because uh
[01:48:53] you know, uh might be a little hot, but
[01:48:55] it also will be very exciting.
[01:48:57] >> You can balance it with your Montana
[01:48:59] trip later that you know, it's uh
[01:49:01] >> I have plenty of cold. I need I need the
[01:49:03] desert a little bit. Um but tell us a
[01:49:05] little bit about Upfront.
[01:49:07] >> Yeah, Upfront is so one, I think, you
[01:49:09] know,
[01:49:10] one of the reasons uh at the core of
[01:49:12] what Workweek wanted to do was that B2B
[01:49:14] has always leaned more boring than bold
[01:49:17] and that with content that we've talked
[01:49:18] about, but also, you know, in consumer
[01:49:21] media uh there are upfronts events and
[01:49:23] they've happened for a half century and
[01:49:25] they're a huge party and a lot of good
[01:49:26] content and there's never been that for
[01:49:29] B2B marketing. And so, 3 years ago we
[01:49:30] did the first ever upfronts event. Uh
[01:49:33] this year, August 26th and 27th, we will
[01:49:36] have our third one.
[01:49:37] The reason to come is because we are in
[01:49:40] this ever-changing cycle of how people
[01:49:43] are consuming content through creators,
[01:49:45] newsletters, uh but there's this new
[01:49:48] shift uh as we talked about here with
[01:49:50] how to actually prove that the decisions
[01:49:52] you're making are working and we're
[01:49:54] going to be diving into that. We're
[01:49:55] going to be talking about different ways
[01:49:56] and trends of 2027 of how to how to
[01:49:59] handle what's coming and have
[01:50:00] opportunity to meet people like yourself
[01:50:02] on a one-on-one basis. And so,
[01:50:04] uh if you're if you're a B2B marketer
[01:50:06] leading any sort of fintech company or
[01:50:08] bank, we'd love to have you down and uh
[01:50:10] and kind of talk about what the future
[01:50:11] of B2B marketing looks like.
[01:50:13] >> It'll be a lot of fun. I we've done it
[01:50:15] uh this will be our third one. Uh the
[01:50:17] first two were super fun. I mean,
[01:50:19] there's something very
[01:50:21] uh different actually about being able
[01:50:23] to get practitioners who work on this
[01:50:25] stuff uh together and just seeing them
[01:50:27] sort of like exchange ideas, uh being
[01:50:29] able to do it in a fun setting.
[01:50:32] Uh really would highly recommend it. We
[01:50:33] will drop a link uh for folks to apply
[01:50:36] uh if you're interested in attending the
[01:50:38] Workweek upfronts. Uh we'll also drop a
[01:50:40] link so you can learn more information
[01:50:42] about the Workweek partner platform that
[01:50:43] Adam described. Adam, thank you so much
[01:50:45] for coming on the podcast.
[01:50:47] >> Alex,
[01:50:48] uh I one of my one of my favorite people
[01:50:50] to read and watch uh and uh was was
[01:50:54] awesome to be on and uh and can't wait
[01:50:56] to see you in in in August [music] in
[01:50:58] Austin.
[01:50:59] >> I'm looking forward to it.
[01:51:07] >> Thank you for listening to this episode
[01:51:09] of Fintech Fix. Stay up-to-date with
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