# AuDHD Expert: What Female AuDHD Really Feels Like, THIS Trait Makes You Vulnerable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBDR1uzBgX0

[00:00] AuDHD neurotype is different to pure ADHD and pure autism, but it overlaps with autistic girls and women's social communication patterns.
[00:07] We are driven to connect.
[00:09] It can come across as looking quite innocent, having dissonance about how people feel, what they tell you, and what they really want.
[00:15] It's not that we do not sense it.
[00:18] It's that we sense so much.
[00:21] Dr. Samantha Hue is a highly specialized female ADHD and autism expert with a PhD in medical science.
[00:25] She's here to give you a detailed crash course in AuDHD and help you spot it.
[00:32] There is that heightened cue detection.
[00:34] The salience network trying to pick up stimuli from your environment, but an AuDHDer who had been through trauma in their lives, that salience network then becomes threat detection more than cue detection.
[00:47] How would you explain how it feels?
[00:49] That might help somebody recognize it.
[00:51] First of all, if someone's thinking that they might be AuDHD, I would...
[00:55] So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus for 30 seconds, but you're going to want to hear this.
[00:59] I've been working on an.
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[01:40] You can join right now using the link in the description.
[01:43] Back to the episode.
[01:48] [music]
[01:49] If someone's listening or watching who has ADHD and they suspect that they might also have AuDHD, what could you describe the condition?
[01:59] How would you explain how it feels that might help?
[02:03] Somebody recognize it?
[02:05] Yeah, so first of all, if someone's thinking that they might be AuDHD, I would um question what brought them here.
[02:12] Um with AuDHD, because of the co-occurrence of the ADHD traits and the autistic traits, and I've spoken about this before in the last episode where it is often a collision of the nervous system of um wanting sameness and also craving freedom and you know, adventure.
[02:32] So, for someone who is AuDHD, your life would look like on any given day, maybe you just want things to stay the same, but then there's a part of you that really want to do something new, you know, and many people with um this AuDHD neurotype tend to end up in careers, you know, throughout their lives where it's like you have so many different hobbies and interests and jobs, you know, and
[03:05] You know, different maybe different relationships.
[03:06] Um, but yeah, definitely that uh wanting to chop and change just when things are good and stable and secure.
[03:17] I mean, that sounds like quite a confusing existence with so many different push and pulls and perhaps contradictions.
[03:23] Can that be quite a distressing experience for somebody living with that two opposing sides of their brain?
[03:31] It is more distressing when we're in the middle of change or when we're at a place where we want change because it's when you feel like, you know, your life is stabilized and then all of a sudden you just don't want that anymore, you want something completely different.
[03:46] And often it is that middle place, you know, that people can feel destabilized and, you know, are looking for an anchor.
[03:58] I said at the beginning, all the HD is such a big conversation within the community at the moment, and there are lots of people having conversations on it, which is which is brilliant.
[04:05] And I.
[04:06] I always like to bring the best, most credible people onto the podcast.
[04:13] Could you explain your qualifications to the people who are watching and listening?
[04:16] Yeah, so it's interesting cuz I mentioned a squiggly career.
[04:21] And if I were to bring the qualification that is relevant to this is that I have lived experience [laughter] for 44 years, going on 45 now.
[04:29] And I've lived with a brain that I didn't understand for decades.
[04:33] And it was only in my 40s when I was diagnosed that I, you know, only began that excavation.
[04:39] But my career began in cancer research.
[04:43] I studied genes, molecular biology, biochemistry, and cancer research.
[04:48] So, I looked at how people's genes manifest into diseases.
[04:53] I culminated in a PhD in cancer research at the age of 30 and then came out and swiftly landed in 16 different industries.
[05:01] One of which I told you about, which is in commercial modeling and acting.
[05:05] And for a really long time,
[05:08] I was really ashamed of it.
[05:10] Um, it was because I keep hearing from people who said to me, "But you have a PhD, Sam."
[05:18] Why are you doing modeling?
[05:20] And I did it because part of it was because there was something inside me that really wanted to come out.
[05:26] You know, I wanted to express myself.
[05:28] You know, so much of my life was so inward and it was so contained.
[05:33] And also, the other part was because I was a mom, and being a freelance model was something that earned me better wage, you know, better rate, you know, at a more flexible, uh, timeline.
[05:47] And it was hard after I gave birth cuz I had a period of postnatal anxiety and really low, low mood and wondering who I am and what am I doing.
[05:58] And I bring the science head and the heart of living as an AuDHDer to this and I think that's that's what people resonate with.
[06:07] And you've clearly stuck at and done.
[06:08] Incredibly well in the field of neurodiversity and raising awareness about ADHD, I think predominantly, but now more so AuDHD.
[06:19] What is it do you think about this particular topic that has maintained your attention or made you the most passionate that you've, I imagine, been about any of your different points in your squiggly career?
[06:31] Yeah, so the career really started from trying to figure out what happened to me and what happened to us.
[06:35] That's why when I created ADHD Girls in 2021, it was very much to try and understand what ADHD looks like in women, you know, cuz what we have known is that the assessments that are done for ADHD and autism is very much gender biased.
[06:53] And because of my own cultural difference, you know, I also noticed that some of the things that were, you know, tough for me was highly masked and I wasn't really able to relate to the diagnostic criteria, which led to then also difficulty in getting my autism.
[07:10] Diagnosis, which took me 7 months, you know, to I was trying to convince them that I'm autistic.
[07:17] And the whole excavation into ADHD led me to then, you know, to speak to the community and people were talking about what it's like to be autistic, too, and I was like, "Oh my god, that's me."
[07:31] And they were saying how they could be quite blunt in meetings, in workplaces, and I've offended my boss in my first week at work um when I was working in Imperial College.
[07:44] And he pulled me into a room after we had a meeting.
[07:47] And he said that the way I was challenging the way things were done is not how you do things here.
[07:56] And he's like, you don't talk to people who've been here for 20 years that way.
[07:59] And I was like, was I rude?
[08:02] I didn't even know cuz all I really wanted to say was the truth and what I saw as the truth.
[08:07] But to someone else, it looked like I was this rude.
[08:10] Inexperienced person who came up from university, well, [laughter] from academia.
[08:16] And you know, I've got to say to all of academia, we're very much like secluded and we have academics.
[08:19] We look at books and we don't communicate science very well, you know?
[08:23] So when I kind of went into communications doing that work, then yeah, people were shocked by the lack of social, you know, understanding.
[08:33] And yeah, so that brought me to really excavating into AuDHD.
[08:35] And it was not only only after I was denied an autism diagnosis three times that I wondered, what in the world is AuDHD?
[08:48] Cuz what is AuDHD look like in in women, you know?
[08:53] What's why don't I recognize myself in the diagnostic criteria that we're using?
[08:59] You know, and they put all of my challenges down to trauma.
[09:04] And because I was going through a lot of trauma in the time when I was going through the assessments, but is
[09:12] AuDHD different to trauma?
[09:15] Or is AuDHD something that can co-occur with trauma?
[09:19] And I went ahead and did the lived experience research myself.
[09:24] I created the first comprehensive AuDHD women's survey.
[09:27] And within a month and a half, we had 400 replies.
[09:32] It was a very long survey as well, so well done, you know, to everyone who filled that out.
[09:38] And we, you know, then found out that it does look different to what we were assessed on.
[09:45] And then a month later Gina Rippon published a book called The Lost Girls of Autism.
[09:49] And she said herself in there that she had been part of the problem that she was trying to solve in that before she thought that there was no gender differences between autistic girls and autistic boys and autistic men and autistic women.
[10:03] But then she realizes that there is and there are a lot of differences in that autistic women.
[10:13] Tend to be more wired, you know, to look for social connection and in fact their social connection patterns look like neurotypicals.
[10:22] So what does that tell you then about the assessment that we're doing, you know, where we're asking autistic women and girls, can you socialize?
[10:26] Can you have, you know, can [clears throat] you make eye contact?
[10:29] Can you make friends?
[10:32] And what if we say we can, you know, but we may not be able to maintain them for long but can, you know?
[10:39] And perhaps not maintaining it is the most painful part about being an ADHD woman.
[10:45] You said a moment ago that you were denied an assessment for autism three times.
[10:49] Who denied you and why?
[10:52] I talked about it before and they have since been very sorry about it.
[10:57] [laughter]
[10:59] Then there was two clinical psychologists and I went through the NHS route.
[11:05] And only came four years after I first, you know, approached my GP for it.
[11:12] Cuz it was on NHS so.
[11:14] I just thought, okay, by then I had already self-identified as autistic as well but I I thought, you know, just go and see what it's like.
[11:21] So this two clinical psychologists um who interviewed me over a period of half a day and I really blatantly remember thinking I didn't prepare because I thought I'll be fine you know I know enough about autism.
[11:38] [laughter]
[11:38] And I went in and the first thing I said was do you know there's a gender bias in the assessment criteria and they were like yeah we'll try and ask you a question in a different way or you know we we can also you know get you to look at the masking scale which is quite common for autistic women.
[11:55] And I was like okay and then we went through the assessment and yeah and then they put my challenges down to trauma and it was traumatic.
[12:04] The whole assessment was traumatic.
[12:07] Cuz it asked so much about the friendships and the relationships they asked if I was bullied you know things like that and could I make friends when did I have my first
[12:15] Friend, you know, and my mom would always say that I was very sociable as a little girl.
[12:20] Always had friends, I was very cheerful, um, yeah, I was very talkative, which is everything against, you know, what we know about autism.
[12:30] So because of that, they thought that I didn't, you know, I wasn't.
[12:35] And also because my work that I said I'm obsessed about, they said, "But that's what you do, you would be."
[12:40] And I'm like, "Well, I have to be obsessed about it in order to do it."
[12:44] You know, and that was also discounted.
[12:46] But later we know that autistic women tend to have different interests, you know, to autistic men, and our interests tend to be more geared towards understanding human behaviors.
[12:55] And that's why so many of us are in the helper profession, very highly empathetic, and you know, really interested in helping people.
[13:01] Do you think that empathy is what drives you today to raise awareness of ADHD in women?
[13:09] Part of it, yeah, the empathy helps me; it helps me do the work well.
[13:12] It is the.
[13:15] Sense of justice of being underrepresented that drives me every day.
[13:18] And lately, because I have realized there's a difference in how people with different neurotypes, whether it's ADHD and/or ADHD, respond to treatment and care.
[13:30] You know, that drives me to do this work because I have my own health crash like 2 years ago from being in a period of high stress and everything collided.
[13:44] And yeah, I I I then went, you know, through a very long journey to kind of dig myself out of that hole and actually then realize that because of my way of being, my neurotype that is different from what people conventionally know as, you know, ADHD and autism, I respond to medication differently.
[14:07] You know, hormone replacement therapies don't work the same way as people would imagine for me because I'm also hormonally sensitive and because I have also been through.
[14:18] Some pretty traumatic times, pretty dark times, that changes how the nervous system reacts to treatment and also people, you know, so everything else has to be tailored to this population in a different way.
[14:33] That hole you mentioned 2 years ago, how deep did that hole get?
[14:37] And what did that look like?
[14:38] Very deep.
[14:40] It was very painful.
[14:42] You know, I listened to your interview with Dr. William Dodson.
[14:45] He talked about RSD and he talked about this woman who was one of his patient who apparently even 2 years after leaving a relationship was still experiencing RSD, you know, or what you then asked him as is that CPTSD or PTSD?
[15:05] Does it look like that?
[15:06] And he said, "Yeah, it can look like that."
[15:08] And that hole lasted so long because and and that happens so more often that we then we talk about.
[15:19] You know, what really led me to do this work is that during the toughest time of my life, I was speaking to a trainee therapist.
[15:33] You know, I was going through a divorce.
[15:35] I was then also dating somebody who was doing a push-pull dynamic with me.
[15:45] Um, and then it was only recently I read an article in psychology um magazine that talked about the intermittent reinforcement that these women with uh who who this all the HD women also went through.
[16:02] And I resonated with everything.
[16:04] Cuz the RSD that I got, the PTSD that I got from the relationship wasn't strictly my fault.
[16:14] You know, it wasn't because I was abandoned or I felt like it was unsafe.
[16:20] It was more because someone had led me to think that they were going to be there and then very abruptly disappeared when I start to ask for something that I need.
[16:32] You know, it was that push-pull that lasted over 2 years.
[16:38] And I had allowed that to continue because I would receive that person back, you know, each time they go away and then after they've regulated, they come back to me and I was like, "Okay, come in."
[16:49] And I never put a stop to it because I wanted connection, you know, I wanted this great love, you know, but it was a form of self-harming in some ways, you know, but it was also a situation where I could not really control and in my period of going through that, I was quite dysregulated when I was speaking to my therapist.
[17:19] But it is hard.
[17:20] You know, you come to
[17:20] Think about it.
[17:24] You're having a divorce.
[17:24] Your ex-husband, you know, blames you for everything and took no responsibility for what they appeared to be in all the years when you tried to make the relationship work.
[17:35] And then you have someone who clearly needs you because you can help them but then has made these promises that they cannot keep.
[17:46] And there's this dissonance about what's going on with me.
[17:48] And then I have two children who I need to be there to hold space for.
[17:54] And in that moment of my dysregulation, the trainee therapist said, "It sounds like you have borderline traits."
[18:00] There was just something in me that just broke there.
[18:01] And I was just like, "Wow."
[18:04] And she was meant to be a friend.
[18:06] [laughter]
[18:06] You know, she was my neighbor.
[18:08] And she said that and I had a feeling that maybe she was taking sides.
[18:12] You know, they said, "Of course, the woman who is dysregulated is the crazy one."
[18:17] You know, and the man who can appear to...
[18:20] Be okay and, you know, keep up the facade is the calm one.
[18:26] But why is the woman dysregulated, you know, in a relationship?
[18:32] Could it be that she doesn't feel safe?
[18:35] Instead of telling someone who is in a moment of deep crisis, you're telling them you have borderline traits.
[18:43] Would you ask, "Are you being abused?
[18:47] Are you going through something that makes you think that your reality isn't real?"
[18:52] Cuz constantly being dismissed here and rejected.
[18:55] Rejected there, but really it was cowardice on the other person's part that I took responsibility for.
[19:01] And no one could really understand where I was.
[19:07] And I was in deep victim mentality.
[19:10] You know, and I know how hard it is to be so misunderstood when no one is in your corner because.
[19:22] No one thinks you need help.
[19:24] And years later, someone was saying to me, you know, it's because you are the strong one.
[19:30] I was like, is it true?
[19:32] Is this what the strong ones have to go through?
[19:34] You know, but there were so much in there cuz when I was going through all that I think maybe there is some truth that I appeared intense, but what is autism but intense?
[19:44] You know, we are on a spectrum of intensity, and women autistic women are intense, you know, cuz of the way our brains are wired quite differently to autistic men.
[19:56] And um yeah, then I this is related, but it was something I watched recently um on a podcast uh with Dr. Anna Lembke who wrote the book Dopamine Nation.
[20:12] And she's a psychiatrist.
[20:15] Uh she said that um people who who are in the deep throes of addiction can appear with those borderline traits or.
[20:23] narcissistic traits or personality
[20:25] disorders.
[20:26] And um
[20:28] in some ways
[20:30] I don't disagree
[20:32] because
[20:34] when you are in
[20:36] that intermittent reinforcement with
[20:38] somebody
[20:39] that push-pull dynamic, you know, where
[20:42] someone comes, you know, your nervous
[20:45] system is ah, I feel safe, oxytocin gets
[20:48] released
[20:49] and then they pull away, you get the
[20:50] withdrawal, you know
[20:52] and over time when that keeps repeating,
[20:54] you develop a person addiction.
[20:58] Not really by choice, but because
[21:01] of that pattern.
[21:03] And so, the dysregulation that happens
[21:06] then when you go to the mental health
[21:07] services, the trauma mental health
[21:09] services.
[21:10] If you do not have the means to advocate
[21:13] for yourself,
[21:14] you could very easily be sectioned.
[21:17] You know, like I
[21:19] I I I I I know um people who uh treat
[21:24] borderline patients in and the NHS.
[21:27] And they said that these women often
[21:30] have a history of addiction,
[21:32] but they're also quite severe cuz they
[21:33] have multiple things that they are
[21:36] um
[21:37] addicted to. Whether it's um alcohol,
[21:40] you know, drugs, but often there is a
[21:43] relational connection.
[21:45] You know, there's some
[21:47] relationship that work out in their
[21:48] lives and then, you know, in that to
[21:51] difficulty, they end up there.
[21:53] You know, and and I asked, "What is the
[21:55] actual thing that helped them? You know,
[21:56] is is is it the DBT, the dialectical
[21:59] behavioral therapy that people prescribe
[22:01] to?
[22:02] You know, those with intense emotions?"
[22:04] And they said it's the um
[22:07] it's learning in that group setting and
[22:08] keeping each other like accountable, but
[22:10] apparently at first they hate each
[22:11] other.
[22:12] [laughter]
[22:12] [clears throat]
[22:13] There's a sense of competition.
[22:14] Um
[22:16] but I find that so meaningful because
[22:18] the field of uh psychology, you know,
[22:20] and mental health services now do not
[22:23] see borderline personality disorder as
[22:25] something that,
[22:27] you know,
[22:28] is um
[22:30] on a surface level. Like they they don't
[22:31] see it as something that we should
[22:32] stigmatize cuz
[22:35] they're using a different term now and
[22:36] it's called disorganized attachment. And
[22:38] they're saying, "Please don't stigmatize
[22:41] disorganized attachment like we did
[22:42] borderline."
[22:44] You know? Um the number of ODHD women I
[22:47] know who end up in mental health
[22:50] services and psychiatric units
[22:52] because they were
[22:54] thought to have EUPD or BPD is really
[22:57] upsetting. You know, and I feel
[23:00] personally upset because someone did say
[23:02] that I, you know have those traits and I
[23:04] was like, "Wow,
[23:06] okay, you know, but I know myself and I
[23:08] knew that
[23:10] there are times where even though I'm
[23:12] dysregulated, I can get back to baseline
[23:14] and guess what helped me?
[23:16] It was a friend of mine who told me that
[23:18] Sam, you are going through so much in
[23:20] your life right now. Of course you're
[23:22] going to be upset, you know, and in
[23:23] distress. You're not this, you know, and
[23:26] and for once I'm like really grateful,
[23:29] you know, that I do not believe in the
[23:30] label.
[23:32] Thank you so much for sharing that.
[23:34] Yeah,
[23:35] that was a huge monologue.
[23:36] [laughter]
[23:37] It took me 2 years to come up with that.
[23:40] Are you okay? Yeah, fine, fine. Like
[23:43] I've I've been back and forth and I'm
[23:44] good I'm good.
[23:46] When you going through that horrendous
[23:48] traumatic period of your life,
[23:50] where were you at with your
[23:53] awareness of your own neurodiversity?
[23:55] Had you had your ADHD diagnosis at that
[23:57] point? I had ADHD diagnosis, but I
[23:59] didn't know what O DHD really meant.
[24:03] You know, of course I knew what autistic
[24:05] mean, you know, but it was very
[24:07] pigeonholed to
[24:10] the generic consensus.
[24:12] I Yeah.
[24:14] It was not until maybe 2 years later
[24:16] that I realized that we are an entirely
[24:19] different species.
[24:21] And with the the memory of
[24:24] the
[24:26] trauma that your
[24:29] situation caused you, when you did
[24:30] finally get the O DHD diagnosis or the
[24:33] autism diagnosis to accompany the ADHD
[24:36] diagnosis, when you heard those words,
[24:38] how did you feel in that moment?
[24:42] Well, it came after 7 months, right, of
[24:44] being invalidated and I was crying every
[24:47] session. So, I was pretty much
[24:49] traumatizing them as much as they were
[24:50] traumatizing me.
[24:51] [laughter]
[24:51] Because it was like, "Why won't you give
[24:53] it to me? Am I just a bad person?" You
[24:55] know, and the fact that I was so
[24:56] dysregulated should probably have told
[24:57] them, you know, but after that I
[25:01] Oh.
[25:03] I just remember the day I received the
[25:05] diagnosis, I thought I wasn't going to
[25:06] get it. And I was thinking, why do they
[25:08] even want me to come in if they're not
[25:10] going to give it to me? So, I sat there
[25:12] and I said to them that I feel like I'm
[25:13] the only person here who have my own
[25:15] back. You know, and they said, uh, "But
[25:18] we're going to give you a working
[25:19] diagnosis." I was like, "What does that
[25:21] mean?"
[25:22] You know, I still don't understand it,
[25:23] you know. A working diagnosis. Is that
[25:25] like a Is it Is it a draft diagnosis?
[25:29] Yeah, so it's because I never had
[25:32] a developmental witness.
[25:34] I didn't ask my mom to be one cuz I
[25:36] thought, you know, she's only going to
[25:37] say I'm very talkative and, you know,
[25:39] things like that. It's not really going
[25:40] to help and her memory is not that great
[25:41] anyway. So, I asked my ex-husband to be
[25:43] my developmental witness, which went
[25:45] down so not well. So, yeah, the working
[25:49] diagnosis is when usually given when
[25:51] there isn't enough, um,
[25:53] you know, evidence in a developmental
[25:55] mental timeline. But why are they
[25:56] looking at that now that we know
[26:00] in July last year, in the summer last
[26:02] year, Princeton University came up with
[26:04] this, uh, paper where they talked about
[26:06] at least four new subtypes of autism.
[26:09] You know, that look nothing like what we
[26:11] believe autism to be. And two of the
[26:14] classes at least do not have
[26:16] developmental delay. And we appear
[26:18] neurotypical until later in life when
[26:21] whatever, you know, life happens in this
[26:24] population tend to be have a higher rate
[26:27] of mental health conditions. My
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[27:25] note though, this code is only
[27:26] applicable on the web browser, not the
[27:28] smartphone. Back to the episode. I speak
[27:32] to a number of people in this community,
[27:36] and one bit of feedback I get is that
[27:39] going for an assessment of whether it's
[27:41] ADHD,
[27:42] um autism, or ADHD, there's a lot of
[27:45] fear that can come with the process
[27:47] because there's always like this nagging
[27:49] feeling in the back of your mind, like,
[27:50] what if I'm wrong? What if I don't have
[27:53] ADHD, or what if I'm not autistic? Like,
[27:56] then then what's wrong with me?
[27:58] [laughter] Like, I feel like that is the
[27:59] explanation for for the struggles and
[28:02] the challenges that I'm experiencing,
[28:03] and and to get a diagnosis will cement
[28:06] that suspicion.
[28:07] But what if the psychologist says I
[28:09] don't? Do you see that fear during the
[28:12] assessment process? Is that quite a
[28:14] common emotion? 100% 100% I I went
[28:18] through it myself. Like, I was
[28:20] invalidated. It wasn't even a fear
[28:21] anymore, it was fact. And the fact that
[28:25] like I say, the diagnostic criteria is
[28:27] very confusing to most of us because we
[28:29] actually do not understand it. There's a
[28:31] real dissonance. It feels as though
[28:33] you're going into a neurotypical system,
[28:35] even though it was meant for autistic
[28:36] assessment,
[28:38] but it feels like you're going into
[28:41] you know, and and being
[28:43] assessed in a way that actually you
[28:44] don't relate with, you know? So many
[28:47] fall below the threshold, the clinical
[28:49] threshold for diagnosis, and then what
[28:51] are they? You know, and and my own
[28:53] question to them was, if I don't get
[28:56] this label, then what am I? Am I just a
[28:59] terrible person? Cuz I went through
[29:01] loads of meltdowns during those
[29:04] difficult periods, you know, the 2 years
[29:07] where
[29:08] my therapist decided it was a good time
[29:10] to do this trauma therapy.
[29:12] And I really appreciate her, but the
[29:14] mentality during that time was so
[29:17] distressing for me cuz I had those
[29:19] memories come back in real time whilst I
[29:21] was co-parenting my children, and I
[29:23] remember
[29:24] taking myself to bathroom just to be a
[29:26] safe person for them so that I don't
[29:29] disregulate and shout because some
[29:31] things that they were doing were
[29:33] triggering me. Um yeah, I was having
[29:35] those meltdowns, and it was awful.
[29:38] And I know now that we really need to
[29:40] think about timing when we do this deep
[29:42] work, you know, cuz not
[29:45] Not everyone's ready for that deep
[29:47] excavation.
[29:48] Some of us really, you know, really need
[29:51] that protective layer because if we're
[29:53] not ready for that work,
[29:55] it can unveil a whole lot of
[29:59] difficulties that you have very neatly
[30:01] concealed for decades.
[30:04] So, if the medical community is woefully
[30:07] behind in recognizing and understanding
[30:11] what ADHD actually feels like and looks
[30:13] like in women, with your experience, how
[30:15] would you describe it? What would you
[30:17] look for?
[30:18] So, um I was recently at the the Royal
[30:21] College of Psychiatrists conference, and
[30:24] I find that awareness is divided. So, I
[30:27] I want to be fair to those who are
[30:29] advocating for better diagnosis and care
[30:33] because uh those are led by really
[30:36] passionate neurodivergent individuals
[30:38] who are also psychiatrists.
[30:40] And so, we understand that there is a
[30:43] huge amount of co-occurring conditions
[30:45] inside the autistic ADHD community
[30:48] and more so in in women, you know, in
[30:51] nearly all the major organ systems.
[30:53] Um that is a big one of physical health
[30:56] co-occurring conditions, especially like
[30:57] later in life. I dug in into the
[31:01] science, which I talked about, I think
[31:03] to you, in that the autistic ADHD the
[31:06] AuDHD neurotype is different to pure
[31:09] ADHD and pure autism. Um but it overlaps
[31:12] with autistic social communication
[31:14] patterns. And I actually
[31:17] do not think that it's any autistic
[31:19] social communication patterns. It's
[31:21] autistic girls and women's social
[31:23] communication patterns,
[31:25] which is that we are driven to connect.
[31:28] We want to be around people. We talk. Um
[31:32] we also mask so much.
[31:34] We have difficulty really hard to
[31:36] understand what people want from us, you
[31:38] know, and it can come across as looking
[31:41] quite innocent
[31:43] and having dissonance about how people
[31:45] feel and what what what what they tell
[31:48] you and what they really want. Because
[31:51] the thing is it's not that we do not
[31:54] sense it. It's that we sense so much and
[31:57] we're trying to make sense of what is
[32:00] it, you know, which is the truth here.
[32:02] And it's sometimes really hard to figure
[32:04] it out when the person you're trying to
[32:06] figure out
[32:07] isn't even clear about what they want.
[32:11] And so, you're picking up all these cues
[32:13] and you do not know what to do with it.
[32:14] That's the analysis paralysis.
[32:17] And somehow you feel it in your body. Um
[32:20] you know, people get and anxious or you
[32:23] know, avoidant in in in different
[32:25] situations.
[32:26] But that's that's one part of it. But
[32:28] the ADHD
[32:30] side, if I were to say ADHD side, even
[32:33] though it looks different to pure ADHD,
[32:36] it's
[32:38] it's more destabilizing.
[32:41] And that um
[32:44] I think the brain dynamic paper actually
[32:46] did a really good job at looking at how
[32:48] people usually follow a thought pattern,
[32:50] you know, how how the brain dynamics
[32:52] tend to work.
[32:53] And so, when you're in that stable
[32:55] autistic side, you know, when the brain
[32:58] networks are lit up in that way, then
[33:00] you have that want for sameness, you
[33:03] know, you want control, you could be
[33:04] quite rigid. But then when it then you
[33:07] know, moves over to the instability,
[33:09] that can be
[33:11] even more unstable than in a pure ADHD
[33:14] individual.
[33:15] But it tends to follow the same pattern,
[33:17] and they do
[33:19] tend to emphasize
[33:21] the rumination
[33:23] that can happen inside an AuDHD
[33:24] individual.
[33:26] And it makes sense to me because um I've
[33:29] been
[33:30] you know, called
[33:31] intense
[33:32] in [laughter] various situations.
[33:34] Um also, I I I do worry about things. I
[33:39] worry about things
[33:41] and the way I deal with my worry is I'm
[33:44] always looking ahead maybe a year or 2
[33:47] years or 10 years, and figure out what I
[33:49] need. I have an anticipatory anxiety,
[33:52] you know?
[33:53] For everything in life, you know, and it
[33:55] goes back to the conversation we were
[33:57] having
[33:58] about how why do I
[34:00] come across anxious?
[34:02] Have you ever had a social interaction
[34:04] with someone who's communicated in such
[34:06] a way with you that with your experience
[34:09] and intuition on being able to perhaps
[34:12] recognize AuDHD in other people, is
[34:14] there somebody that you've met who
[34:16] you've thought like that is super clear,
[34:18] like that person has AuDHD, they just
[34:20] don't know it?
[34:22] Yeah, a lot of um
[34:24] women tend to come to us and ask, you
[34:27] know,
[34:28] if um they have AuDHD because
[34:32] they resonate with what I say about
[34:34] being
[34:36] you know, you you you appear like a swan
[34:37] on the surface, but underneath you're
[34:39] paddling like rigorously, you know, and
[34:41] then you just regulate at home. That's
[34:43] the part people really relate to because
[34:46] it's like you can function all day, you
[34:48] know, appearing almost neurotypical.
[34:50] Then when you get home, you have to go
[34:52] into a dark room, no one talk to me.
[34:54] I've got like, you know, my salt lamp
[34:56] and I've got my
[34:58] teddy
[34:59] dressing [laughter] gown and all these
[35:01] fluffy things that I like to cuddle. Um
[35:04] so there there is that
[35:06] keeping up a facade. I think that's
[35:08] probably the most telling thing about an
[35:11] autistic ADHD woman. But for a man
[35:15] um
[35:17] [laughter]
[35:20] in my experience, I've seen
[35:23] many ADHD men aren't very resilient to
[35:25] stress.
[35:26] And I don't expect them to be. But they
[35:29] can
[35:30] be quite easily disregulated when
[35:33] yeah, an intensity comes into comes into
[35:35] the picture. What happens if you are
[35:38] somebody like you said, you get home,
[35:39] you get very disregulated, you want to
[35:42] decompress, you have your weighted
[35:45] blanket, you turn the lights down,
[35:47] whatever your routine looks like for
[35:49] you. But you live with someone who
[35:50] doesn't get it. You live with someone
[35:52] who doesn't understand that you need to
[35:54] go through that process. Can that be
[35:56] quite turbulent?
[35:57] Yeah, because then you are masking and
[36:00] you're walking on eggshells if you don't
[36:02] like have that. Cuz if you need
[36:03] recovery, you know, and if that person
[36:05] doesn't allow that recovery, you can't
[36:07] live with that person. You know, like
[36:09] the number of partners that I've come
[36:11] across who
[36:12] look good on paper, but actually I just
[36:14] can't live with, then it's a no. You
[36:16] know, like your nervous system needs
[36:18] recovery from
[36:20] the sensitivity to the world, you know,
[36:22] you you you take on so much, you know,
[36:24] you're sensitive, your brain's fast
[36:25] moving and it's changing. And so when
[36:29] you get home
[36:30] you need an anchor and for me it's lying
[36:32] horizontally.
[36:34] [laughter]
[36:34] Maybe, you know.
[36:36] Could somebody reach for unhealthy ways
[36:38] to
[36:39] disregulate
[36:41] if they're not supported and they're not
[36:44] able to do it a healthy way? Could that
[36:46] lead to drinking or explosive arguments?
[36:49] What could that look like? Yeah.
[36:51] Um
[36:52] So
[36:54] we don't reach out for those strategies
[36:57] to have fun or, you know, cuz it's good
[36:59] for us. We reach for that to calm
[37:02] ourselves down, right?
[37:03] Um for me definitely when I go into a
[37:06] social situation
[37:07] I
[37:08] I used to need to drink, you know, to
[37:11] kind of be sociable. Otherwise, I'll be
[37:14] quite awkward or you know, it's it's
[37:16] it's just hard. But I think what you do
[37:19] on a daily basis to cope very much
[37:21] depends on what you, people around you,
[37:24] and the culture really thinks is normal.
[37:26] You know, and I talked about this like
[37:28] in in this culture is very much drinking
[37:30] or, you know, various recreational drugs
[37:33] or working is a really big one. Shopping
[37:36] [laughter]
[37:36] for many
[37:37] many women. But in my the culture I grew
[37:40] up in it's very much eating, you know,
[37:42] getting together with with people,
[37:44] families, uh drinking to a lesser to a
[37:46] lesser extent. How do you advocate for
[37:49] yourself now? But I'm imagine you you
[37:51] know, you are very busy. You go to
[37:53] events. You talk on stage. You go to
[37:55] social gatherings. How do you cope with
[37:58] those now that you have a better
[37:59] understanding of how your brain works?
[38:03] It's tough. I'm not going to say that
[38:05] it's easy for me cuz I'm I'm not a Gen
[38:07] Z.
[38:08] [laughter]
[38:09] I didn't grow up talking about mental
[38:11] health or, you know, telling people my
[38:14] needs and creating boundaries. I grew up
[38:16] with no boundaries. You know, just
[38:18] people walking all over me and, you
[38:21] know, me doing things for people. So
[38:23] when I go to events now, I have minimum
[38:26] requirements to actually just get a
[38:28] picture of the room that I will be
[38:30] speaking at. They they they send it to
[38:32] me and I tell them that's the things
[38:34] that I absolutely cannot live with,
[38:36] which is hot, you know, heating when
[38:39] it's too much. I literally cannot
[38:41] function. It's counterproductive to
[38:43] actually me being there. I would just be
[38:44] talking gibberish and microphones.
[38:48] That's been a real problem cuz every
[38:50] time I turn up, you know, I never know
[38:52] the quality of the microphones.
[38:54] Sometimes the echoes.
[38:55] And that's it. You know, there that goes
[38:57] the rest of the presentation. But I I
[39:00] tend to avoid really big
[39:02] conferences and if I do have to go them,
[39:04] I'll just go for that slot and then come
[39:06] back. I really cannot deal with large
[39:07] volume of people. Are there some events
[39:10] that you go to where it does feel safer
[39:11] to retreat back to the safety of of
[39:13] masking?
[39:15] I think because I
[39:18] you know, often feel like I don't want
[39:20] to mask a lot. I tend to be more of a
[39:22] lone wolf now. When I do go to events, I
[39:24] tend to
[39:26] you know, try and stay by myself.
[39:28] Sometimes I run away from people.
[39:29] [laughter]
[39:31] Know where the exits are at all times.
[39:33] it is not the people so much. It was the
[39:35] whole vibe. You know, it's like you're
[39:37] going there and you're absorbing
[39:38] everything and it's so hard for someone
[39:41] who doesn't have a filter.
[39:43] And for me
[39:44] what save me is my noise cancellation
[39:46] headphones. You know, like you have
[39:49] music in your ears and sometimes I'm
[39:52] singing out loud.
[39:53] [laughter]
[39:54] No one can tell. But yeah, it's having
[39:56] my own quiet space and sometimes it's
[39:58] it's carrying that with me. Having my
[39:59] headphones and creating that micro
[40:01] environment. Do you think it's possible
[40:03] for autism to mask ADHD to such an
[40:09] extent that perhaps somebody might never
[40:11] have that realization that they're all
[40:13] ADHD? Yeah, that's probably what you'll
[40:15] get from just looking at me.
[40:17] [laughter]
[40:18] My uh clinical psychologist who assessed
[40:21] me for autism didn't see
[40:23] anything, you know?
[40:24] [laughter]
[40:25] They were like, "You're fine, you know?
[40:27] A lot of the traits could be ADHD." And
[40:29] they overlap, you know, executive
[40:30] function, sensory challenges, emotional
[40:33] dysregulation, all ADHD, you know? But
[40:36] the stuff that are
[40:38] autistic, you know, it's the I do think
[40:41] the rumination, the worry, and the
[40:43] intensity
[40:44] is not ADHD so much as it is um
[40:48] and the definitely the RSD, you know,
[40:51] it's definitely more painful. What is
[40:53] RSD to you?
[40:54] I know it's a it's a it's three letters
[40:57] that we speak about a lot on the podcast
[40:59] and everyone seems to have their own
[41:01] individual journey with it.
[41:03] You know, we know that it's it's a
[41:05] horrendous emotional pain in in in
[41:07] response to a perceived criticism.
[41:10] But how does it show up in your life?
[41:12] So it's interesting, Alex, like I think
[41:14] every time I come and talk to you, I
[41:16] have a different version of it.
[41:18] [laughter]
[41:19] Because my very first
[41:21] interview with you was RSD, you know,
[41:23] and at the time I talked about the
[41:26] trauma that we experienced, the
[41:27] difficulty that shaped, you know, our
[41:29] lives that make it difficult when we
[41:32] encounter triggers
[41:34] where you know, we feel completely
[41:36] paralyzed by this emotion,
[41:41] this self-chastising
[41:43] that happens.
[41:44] And then over time, we know that there
[41:46] is neuroscience involved as well, you
[41:49] know, with ADHD, there is that
[41:50] heightened
[41:52] um
[41:54] cue detection.
[41:55] I'm talking about like the salience
[41:58] network, you know,
[42:00] trying to pick up stimuli from your
[42:03] environment.
[42:04] But an ADHDer who had
[42:07] been through trauma in their lives,
[42:09] that threat that that that salient
[42:11] network then
[42:14] becomes threat detection more than cue
[42:17] detection, then everything feels more
[42:19] sensitive and you're looking
[42:22] and scanning for triggers. You know, it
[42:25] it then becomes this thing like
[42:27] am I safe to be in this
[42:29] relationship, this work, you know, what
[42:32] is that person saying?
[42:35] Like something that maybe the other
[42:36] person doesn't
[42:39] you know, mean for it to be a trigger
[42:41] becomes triggering to you.
[42:43] But that's the thing about being an
[42:44] empath.
[42:46] An empath who has been through trauma
[42:49] is that you pick up the things that they
[42:51] don't say
[42:54] more than, you know, what they are
[42:56] telling you.
[42:57] And we know people.
[43:00] We know people in our bones, you know?
[43:03] But why won't they just say what they
[43:05] want?
[43:07] You know, that's that's what
[43:09] RSD can make us more hypervigilant. If
[43:12] the
[43:13] autistic traits perhaps are causing
[43:16] challenges on one day, I guess you could
[43:18] put extra effort into
[43:21] masking them
[43:23] and hiding them.
[43:24] Or vice versa, if the if the ADHD traits
[43:27] are causing challenges on a particular
[43:28] day, then you might lean more into the
[43:30] autistic side. But I suppose each one of
[43:33] those options comes with a sense of
[43:35] abandoning who you really are because
[43:37] who you really are is a is a is a blend
[43:39] of the two. So is there a degree of
[43:43] perhaps triggering yourself through not
[43:46] accepting that the challenges that
[43:48] either one of them present is is part of
[43:50] you and you need to
[43:52] embrace them rather than mask them?
[43:55] Yeah, that's such a valid question. It's
[43:57] like, yeah, that is a reality for most
[44:00] of us. It's that contradicting paths are
[44:03] constantly trying to both be expressed
[44:07] and you feel like if you're trying to
[44:09] suppress one side, it's like you're not
[44:11] really being true to yourself, too. So,
[44:13] you're constantly trying to navigate
[44:15] how do I satisfy,
[44:17] [laughter]
[44:17] you know, these two crazy sides. And
[44:21] you know, I I I really think that where
[44:24] we are at in our lives really determine
[44:28] how well we can integrate this, you
[44:31] know.
[44:32] It's
[44:33] it's it's really hard. How do you
[44:37] acknowledge
[44:38] what is right for you? So, I guess maybe
[44:41] that's when you rise above these two
[44:43] contradicting sides.
[44:46] And actually just start making decisions
[44:48] for you.
[44:49] What makes you feel at peace? Mhm. You
[44:52] know, that's how I guide my
[44:53] decision-making process now. How do I
[44:55] feel after saying yes to this?
[44:58] Really turbulent is like, no, that's a
[44:59] bad idea.
[45:00] You know, that's usually how I guide
[45:02] myself. Um
[45:04] Yeah, it's uh it's a difficult because I
[45:06] also know
[45:08] that just based on having looked at my
[45:10] own biology and genes and, you know,
[45:13] biochemistry from my own health crash
[45:16] that if I'm not authentic to myself, my
[45:18] body suffers. Like, I've been
[45:22] in periods where when I was going
[45:24] through divorce, when, you know, like
[45:27] the relationship
[45:28] relationships break down,
[45:31] my serotonin levels were on the floor.
[45:33] Like, that
[45:35] what was going what was happening in my
[45:37] real life, it was showing in my body, in
[45:39] my biochemistry, my hormones were really
[45:41] dysregulated.
[45:43] Uh stress was through the roof.
[45:45] And that didn't do me any favors.
[45:48] RSD is clearly incredibly crippling, and
[45:51] we we know that well on this podcast.
[45:53] What would you describe as the most
[45:56] crippling anecdote of of RSD that you've
[45:59] heard from somebody?
[46:00] So, I'll go back to when I first learn
[46:03] about RSD, which is um
[46:05] if you internalize it, you know, it can
[46:08] feel like major depressive disorder when
[46:11] you're so depressed and you feel alone
[46:13] and you cut off.
[46:14] That's a sense of disconnection from the
[46:16] world.
[46:17] Um there's this huge like inner critic
[46:19] that goes in a loop and you chastise
[46:21] yourself. All this is really bad for
[46:23] your health.
[46:25] And then if you externalize it, it can
[46:27] look like anger. You know, people can
[46:29] have this phoria. Um I mean rejection
[46:31] sensitive dysphoria.
[46:33] And in that yeah, and also it can cause
[46:36] suicidal ideation where people may think
[46:39] like it's just better to not be here,
[46:40] you know?
[46:42] But that anger can be destructive.
[46:45] You know, if it's coming in a burst from
[46:48] the RSD.
[46:50] And yeah, personally
[46:52] I know or I have, you know, encountered
[46:55] people who
[46:56] when in the heat of RSD
[46:59] they will also shift the blame to the
[47:01] other person, but actually it was that
[47:03] own internal self-chastising they're
[47:06] dealing with. I recently interviewed Dr.
[47:08] Will William Dodson and one of the top
[47:11] comments was
[47:13] we were talking about RSD for an hour
[47:15] and a half and one of the top comments
[47:17] was well, how can you tell the
[47:17] difference between an RSD episode and
[47:19] narcissistic rage?
[47:21] Um because apparently they look quite
[47:23] similar. But the rage um
[47:26] Can they look quite similar?
[47:28] It can be because people who have
[47:31] narcissistic rage may have, you know,
[47:33] very intense RSD. And as I said to you,
[47:35] back to the point of um
[47:37] listening to that interview with Dr.
[47:38] Anna Lembke where she mentioned that
[47:42] those who are deep in addiction or have
[47:44] been perhaps, you know, have had a
[47:46] history of
[47:47] trauma in their early life where there
[47:49] is abuse or, you know, things that
[47:51] happened to them. Maybe it's neglect or
[47:54] or they also have a history of uh
[47:57] substance use and um um
[48:00] all sorts of different addiction.
[48:02] There's more of a tendency for that
[48:04] person to develop narcissism.
[48:07] You know, or or narcissistic personality
[48:09] disorder. But I guess there's a
[48:11] difference, right, between narcissism
[48:12] and narcissistic personality disorder.
[48:15] Just focusing back on or ADHD, Sam. It's
[48:19] It's such an interesting coexisting
[48:23] diagnosis. Is it possible for for the
[48:25] for the two to almost form like a parent
[48:28] and child relationship within the
[48:30] person's brain?
[48:32] Yes. Yeah. It's like Yeah, I definitely
[48:35] experience that. It's like when my life
[48:37] is too stable for too long, I'm like
[48:39] kind of want something, you [laughter]
[48:41] know, to make me feel a bit alive or,
[48:43] you know, and
[48:45] I do think that there is that trauma
[48:48] layer in there as well. In that if
[48:50] you've experienced, you know,
[48:52] difficulties and challenges in your
[48:54] life, then
[48:56] you're more likely to need more senses
[49:00] to to feed that need to feel alive.
[49:03] You know, and
[49:05] and I've been introduced to this term
[49:07] called emotional junkie.
[49:10] Which was [laughter]
[49:12] expressed to me by my coach. I have a
[49:14] spiritual coach.
[49:16] And he said, um "You're not that bad,
[49:18] but you know, some people are like quite
[49:22] bad in actually being an emotional
[49:24] junkie.
[49:25] In that even though they know what is
[49:27] good for them and they know what to do,
[49:30] but because they want that intense drama
[49:33] and
[49:34] you know, chaos to an extent,
[49:38] because that
[49:39] is what they're used to.
[49:41] And that is what they look for. And I
[49:42] was just like, "Oh, no.
[49:44] That that kind of does does explain me a
[49:46] little bit, but you know, he said I'm
[49:48] not too bad too too far down the line,
[49:50] so I can I still have hope to come back.
[49:53] [laughter]
[49:54] This has been absolutely fascinating,
[49:55] Sam. I think
[49:57] we always try and get some hacks in
[49:58] these episodes. Do you do you have any
[50:01] life hacks, any any emotional or
[50:03] practical tips somebody could implement
[50:05] if they are AuDHD that might help them
[50:07] with some of the perhaps the challenges
[50:09] that come with with a contradicting
[50:11] brain?
[50:12] So, right, because the AuDHD
[50:16] brain
[50:17] can shift, you know, depending on what
[50:19] context and situation that you live in.
[50:22] The most important thing is to
[50:24] understand what is your environment
[50:26] like, what is the quality of your
[50:27] significant relationships.
[50:29] Are you good at keeping, you know,
[50:31] creating boundaries to protect your
[50:33] needs?
[50:35] So much rest on those basic needs.
[50:38] Sleeping
[50:39] well and eating well and having energy,
[50:43] you know, leading a relatively
[50:45] low-stress life and having period for
[50:47] recovery. That is the most important
[50:49] one.
[50:49] You know, because maybe we won't be
[50:51] always be able to choose what
[50:52] environments we go into. You know,
[50:54] unless we want to live in a cave, but we
[50:56] can't do [laughter] that.
[50:57] But yeah, how can you create that
[50:59] recovery plan for yourself, you know, a
[51:01] space for you to come back to every
[51:02] time?
[51:04] But we we were speaking but off camera
[51:06] before we started chatting today, and I
[51:08] think you echoed what was the first hack
[51:10] in recent AuDHD Hacks episode I did,
[51:13] which was start with no.
[51:15] If someone's asking something of your
[51:17] time, in your case a conference or a
[51:19] speaking gig or or a new cohort or
[51:22] whatever it might be, a podcast
[51:23] appearance,
[51:25] it's so easy to say yes instantly as a
[51:27] knee-jerk reaction. And just rejigging
[51:30] that as as a a no and protect that time,
[51:33] because I think it's so much easier to
[51:35] to turn a no into a yes if you change
[51:37] your mind rather than all of the the
[51:40] panic of trying to change a a yes into a
[51:42] no once you realize you've perhaps
[51:43] double-booked yourself or you just don't
[51:45] have the capacity to do it.
[51:48] I want to move on to the washing machine
[51:50] of woes, which is questions from the
[51:52] audience. These were the most requested
[51:54] questions to ask you today, Sam. And
[51:58] it's a washing machine because the
[51:59] regular watchers and listeners will know
[52:00] that it represents memory loss for me
[52:02] because I always forget my clothes in
[52:03] the machine. So it's a little reminder
[52:05] to everyone to empty the machine.
[52:07] Although I do use the Teemo app now,
[52:09] which is the sponsor and does help me to
[52:11] remember to empty the machine. Gosh,
[52:12] there's three questions. So these are
[52:13] the these are the most requested
[52:15] questions from the audience on the topic
[52:18] of ADHD.
[52:19] And in third place, somebody's asked,
[52:23] "I honestly think I'm ADHD and it's
[52:26] causing me huge anxiety as I don't know
[52:29] if I'm coming or going. Does ADHD cause
[52:32] depression?" Yeah, I mean, it sounds
[52:34] like that person is is anxious and
[52:36] depressed. You know, you kind of like,
[52:39] yeah, that makes up the entire
[52:40] population where I misdiagnosed as being
[52:43] anxious or depressed
[52:45] before we come to ADHD. Yeah, you and
[52:49] definitely if you're like that, like I
[52:51] think
[52:52] cuz you're toggling between two
[52:53] different nervous system states. So
[52:56] that this way of being is all about
[52:58] regulating, you know, your nervous
[53:00] system on the go. Yeah, obviously you
[53:02] can't regulate yourself out of a
[53:03] biochemistry trap, so look after your
[53:05] basics as well as I say. Sure. And is it
[53:09] I mean, I hear a lot of the people
[53:11] have been misdiagnosed with anxiety in
[53:13] the past. Is that Is that quite common?
[53:15] Oh, yeah, so common. Like it it there's
[53:17] so many reasons that can make that
[53:19] worse, you know, hormonal changes is one
[53:21] of them.
[53:23] I think that actually leads into the
[53:25] next question, which is the perfect
[53:26] segue. So thanks for accidentally doing
[53:28] that.
[53:29] How can ADHD crop up during menopause
[53:32] and is it going to be hell for me?
[53:35] Not necessarily. We have a mixture of
[53:38] anecdotes, but generally during
[53:41] menopause when progesterone drops and
[53:43] estrogen is much lower, you will start
[53:47] to feel like the anxiety, you know, crop
[53:50] up first. And then the sleep goes, and
[53:53] then, you know, brain fog starts. Um,
[53:55] your whole body starts to wonder what is
[53:57] going on. And then you get to feel,
[54:01] you know, 10 to 15 years before
[54:03] menopause actually happens. Is that
[54:05] period of a roller coaster that a lot of
[54:06] people talk about? But, um, it really
[54:09] depends on each individual um
[54:11] experience. Not everyone's going to have
[54:13] it bad, but, yeah, definitely look into
[54:16] your hormones first before, you know,
[54:18] taking any medications. Is it possible
[54:21] to almost mask so well and have all of
[54:24] your
[54:25] ducks in a row and to go through life
[54:28] having not thought that you are
[54:31] or ADHD, but then you something happens
[54:34] like menopause and there's such a big
[54:35] hormonal shift that that's actually what
[54:37] tips you over into the assessment
[54:38] process? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, most
[54:40] people have
[54:42] what I would call ideal conditions where
[54:44] they have supportive relationships, you
[54:46] know, things are working out, they have
[54:47] great jobs.
[54:49] And then
[54:50] the hormonal changes start to happen,
[54:52] the estrogen starts to, you know,
[54:54] oscillate. And then the progesterone
[54:57] starts to, you know, drop, that's when
[54:59] they lose the ability to filter their
[55:02] thoughts and the the ability to mask
[55:05] also diminishes.
[55:07] And then all of a sudden, you are
[55:08] worried about going out because you
[55:10] don't know if you're going to say
[55:12] something that offends somebody. So,
[55:14] yeah, um,
[55:16] we do see this period of time, even
[55:18] though it comes with instability, as a
[55:20] gift because it is a gift for you to be
[55:24] authentic and really start to advocate
[55:27] for your authentic needs and become who
[55:29] you really are. And finally, Sam,
[55:31] someone's asked, "Some days my ADHD is
[55:34] no problem at all, and I think I'm
[55:36] already ADHD too, to be honest. Should I
[55:39] seek a diagnosis even if it's not really
[55:42] causing issues in my life? It depends
[55:45] because
[55:46] the thing is is that is that person a
[55:49] man or a woman? Because then
[55:52] if she is a woman
[55:54] and
[55:56] she's wondering if already ADHD is going
[55:57] to cause any problems if it's not
[55:59] causing any problems now, then I would
[56:01] say that when hormonal changes start
[56:04] then it may have higher tendency to
[56:08] cause problems. So if you are trying to
[56:11] understand a way of being
[56:12] so that you can support yourself down
[56:14] the road, then yes. You know, for me
[56:16] it's always better to know than not to
[56:17] know.
[56:18] Um yeah, but not everyone really wants
[56:21] to.
[56:23] Sure.
[56:23] This has been truly insightful, Sam.
[56:27] Thank you so much. It feels like it's
[56:28] been almost been like a a masterclass on
[56:30] already ADHD. Um
[56:32] thank you again for being so brave and
[56:35] open and vulnerable to share your
[56:37] personal story.
[56:38] Um
[56:39] it was very powerful and I think on
[56:41] behalf of everyone listening
[56:43] grappling to understand their brain, I
[56:45] think they would have recognized a lot
[56:46] of what you said in themselves. Um so
[56:48] thank you once again. Thank you so much.
[56:50] Thank you so much for having me, Alex.
[56:51] You're so easy to talk to. I don't think
[56:53] I would have been able to say the same
[56:54] thing to another person. So thank you.
[56:59] [music]