# Active Learning and Learner Centered Design: L. Dee Fink, Author, Consultant and Personal Hero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u_TzuOjPBY

[00:00] hello everybody anna sabramowicz here.
[00:01] thank you so much for joining me today I have a very special guest personal hero.
[00:04] of mine and my he doesn't know this but definitely a personal mentor who has influenced the way I design courses and also interact with the instructors that I work with.
[00:18] basically they get force-fed a lot of a lot of his work so let me give you a quick overview and if I if I miss anything please please correct me.
[00:27] all right so um this is LD think goes by D I believe and the hoody has served for 26 years as the founding director of the instructional development program at the University of Oklahoma and also as president of the pod network in higher education in 2004 from 2004 to 2005.
[00:49] so the pod network is the primary professional association for faculty developers a in the United States and it is also the largest in the world now.
[00:58] during the last 10 years he has
[01:00] Consulted with over 200 colleges and universities in the US and 16 other countries in South America.
[01:05] Your sorry up to 20 now.
[01:08] Oh really?
[01:12] Oh, and I'm headed off to Kenya in two weeks.
[01:15] Oh man, I hope you don't have to take.
[01:17] Oh, you probably will have to take malaria.
[01:22] I did, but they put some higher elevation, but they did say get hepatitis A or C, you whichever it was.
[01:26] So basically the man's consulted all over the world, which is fantastic.
[01:36] And also one of the things is he's published an amazing book, one that I is my go-to.
[01:43] It's called Creating Significant Learning Experiences.
[01:47] And it is a fantastic guide on how to design courses for her higher education.
[01:54] So yes, there it is.
[01:55] That's a beautiful new cover.
[01:58] I still have the old school blue one, so so.
[02:04] fabulous thank you so much for joining me.
[02:06] okay so first let's talk about the origin story kind of like you know let's get into it.
[02:12] how did you get into this profession what still drives you why are you still traveling to these places and taking taking malaria.
[02:17] well it's a little odd story so it's interesting that you asked.
[02:28] starting with when I went to school as an undergraduate I had no interest in being a teacher.
[02:33] I took no education classes I had my major was a social science major but right in the last year of my undergraduate years that was 1962.
[02:40] President Kennedy started the Peace Corps program I was attracted that had always been stirred in things international and I signed up for that or at least I applied for it.
[02:52] they accepted me and asking me asked me to go to the country of Iran for two years 62 to 64 to be a teacher.
[03:00] well no let me back off that to go to a school that our
[03:06] whole project was working in agricultural high schools and I got picked in part because I grew up on a farm so I had an agricultural background.
[03:12] but when I was in training for the Peace Corps they had a bunch of different groups for different kind of things.
[03:17] I was in the animal husbandry group they had a separate group that I was not in for teaching English as a second language with him some people do however.
[03:29] when we got to Iran and they signed people to schools I ended up going to one where they needed somebody to teach English as a second language.
[03:35] I did that I had no training for that whatsoever.
[03:41] those people did I did not I was I was floating you know I was winging it.
[03:48] I mean literally win yet so I was trying to figure out how do you teach people in wish as a second language with almost essentially no help at all.
[03:55] so I was on my own in that for two years.
[03:58] I had a chance to travel around for a year afterwards and do some other things well and then I came back and and I got a job this was in the mid-60s Vietnam.
[04:07] was building up the United States I got drafted in fact but I wanted to keep the draft off my back one way you could do that was teach school so I got into teaching school.
[04:15] if I took a couple summer capes courses education which I did got in there taught English math junior high I could handle that half way but they had a geography course now I traveled around the world overseas for three years I really thought it'd be fun to teach that and no training first of all I'm not teaching but I has no training in how to teach geography again I was winging it.
[04:36] I knew I couldn't use a textbook I'd get bored after three weeks as with the students I had a gazillion slides which I could show which would be interesting for about the first two or three times but after that and I flipped out the lights they would flip them out okay so I had to do something creative and then at the end of that year I saw a poster in the school for a I think was a six week Institute in Western Illinois I was teaching in Illinois where I grew up for teachers k12 teachers of geography so they were focused on subject matter k12.
[05:08] I said whoo wouldn't it be nice to know what you're doing.
[05:11] Okay so I signed up before it got into it and half of it was about teaching us geography which was great but the other half was how to teach geography.
[05:18] So finally I'm getting halfway close and it was in that Institute that somebody put out the idea that one way to put together a course is to first of all figure out what you want to learn by the end of the course and then part two ask yourself what would they have to do to learn that.
[05:37] And I said man what a powerful idea and and I was all excited to go back to my school and try that out but I got disrupted because in the middle of the Institute I got drafted again couldn't get out and had to go in the military.
[05:54] Oh wow I spent four years the Navy but then when I came out now I had the military behind me had my traveling around behind me for a little bit I could figure out what I wanted to do.
[06:04] I look through so hard choices that finally figured out to go back and pick up that eating of
[06:09] geography which I really got excited about.
[06:11] went to grad school and worked with a guy who had a joint appointment at the University of Chicago.
[06:15] joint appointment in geography and education.
[06:17] so he was just ideal for me and we work together.
[06:22] and then one of the things and so but that was I was thinking k12 teaching of geography.
[06:25] but while I was in grad school a couple things happened.
[06:29] we started to shift to higher education and then my adviser got selected by an NSF grant to the group of geographers to prepare graduate students for college teaching.
[06:40] he was a director of it and I was his only grad student in that kind of working with geography and education.
[06:45] so I became his right-hand man.
[06:47] so we spent two to three years working with directors of various programs and graduate schools around the u.s. on the question how do you prepare somebody for college teaching specifically in geography.
[07:01] but mainly about college teaching that's what really linked you put me further into good teaching but also got me into the question of faculty development.
[07:07] how do you help somebody
[07:10] become a good or better teacher got familiar with some of the literature and some of the ideas what program activities might be etc and so that was really into teaching and then the teaching geography they didn't higher education in fact about murders kind of them the sequence there didn't start out that way but once I got into it and especially once I started the program at Oklahoma I just knew this is where I belong I mean I felt something I had a passion for I felt I had some skills and knowledge about it needed to develop them all the way through but it just really felt right and and when you when you asked about so what keeps me going all these years that's about that's it that's a valid question I think it's because I have seen in my own teaching but also seen with others there really are things you can learn any teacher can learn that can make them better everybody's learn some of this along the way but they're always additional things you can learn and I've seen for myself when I learn these ideas and learn how
[08:10] to apply them properly and effectively in my own teaching.
[08:12] it increases student attendance.
[08:15] it increases student engagement.
[08:17] it increases the quantity and quality of student learning.
[08:21] and those that those are things that I've also learned I care about.
[08:23] and if I can learn some things that will help me with that that's what I want to do.
[08:30] and that's kind of what I want to help other people do for those who are who care enough about their own teaching they want to make it better.
[08:35] so that's that's what literally what keeps me going.
[08:37] do you perceive that there's been I mean you you travel to so many places you still are you still feeling there's a big gap or do you think that there's been a shift.
[08:48] yeah because of internet.
[08:50] well both are true.
[08:52] there is a big well the internet is changing the name of the game is somewhat.
[08:55] but I would say it's still true that there's a big gap between current practice and what we could be doing face-to-face or online.
[09:05] either way there is I can sense a the beginning of a movement towards we got
[09:13] to figure out how to do this better globally.
[09:15] it's the US isn't quickly leading that but it is happening.
[09:18] we're in it.
[09:20] the only thing we're doing halfway there's we do have probably well no not even though I can say a high percentage of universities with faculty development programs.
[09:28] we do have a higher we're kind of in the middle on that.
[09:34] we're better than the undeveloped countries but places like the the British Empire which is you know a limit India South Africa Australia of New Zealand those kind of places have have moved one step further.
[09:48] which is requiring of beginning teachers either you got to have so many hours of learning about teaching before you can promote it to the next level or or something like that and or they've had a universal fact development programs like lean but more or less all universities have a faculty development program.
[10:04] in the US we probably got Oh 40 50 percent by now somewhere in that area.
[10:08] so it's still a good percentage but it's still not the majority like some other
[10:14] countries so we're us has cut in the middle of this but the other thing that we're learning is you know that whole shift to a learning centered teaching as opposed to teaching center that paradigm shift article that's starting to gain traction and which is why I'm getting invitations to go to other countries they know there's something afoot they know they need something better what they don't know is what the ideas are that will help them get there and that's why they're inviting me and other people like me that can share some ideas with them so they're they're starting the movement as well so this might be a little bit of a shift maybe getting down into the more than the gritty of what I found in your book and just in your approach is that you have a very unique approach when it comes to identifying who the learner is so this idea of the learner centered approach right and you know how a course needs to be structured to help them learn so you can you tell us more about this approach and why yeah.
[11:15] it's interesting when I was back to that grad student and I ended up you're being registered and worked on the teaching of geography and higher education.
[11:21] what I ended up doing was sitting in on three college courses with geography at one University that had field experiences a lot which is something I was trying to get closer with but the heart of that study was interviews with roughly a hundred students about what they remembered from the course and what they thought they got out of it.
[11:43] that was really significant I didn't quite have that phrase yet but I but I didn't know it was something I said what did you get out of it that you remembered and really affected how you live your life.
[11:53] I did have that question as a grad student working that dissertation and and and the each of these interviews was about an hour long and I found I really enjoyed hearing these students tell their story and finding out what their answers to those questions were and I guess I let me clarify how I did that I had a two-part question did you ever have any of your courses in college or
[12:17] in geography that you learned something
[12:19] that was so valuable it changed the way
[12:21] you live your life and most of them said
[12:24] and not very many but there's another
[12:27] were a few I said when pick one that did
[12:29] what was it you learned in that course
[12:32] that had the power that you actually
[12:33] changed the way you lived your life
[12:35] personal life work life social life
[12:36] civic life or whatever and then they
[12:39] tell me and so I wrote that down and the
[12:41] most valuable thing
[12:43] in that whole study in my view was the
[12:45] beginnings of that taxonomy because
[12:48] probably about two-thirds three-fourths
[12:50] of the taxonomy significant significant
[12:52] learning if he go back to that that
[12:54] study was in there but that study was
[12:56] called my I labeled my dissertation
[12:59] listening to the learner so that's
[13:03] something I've been onto for quite a
[13:04] while the one I joined it but to I think
[13:08] that's something we've got to do as
[13:10] teachers for it for it and here's the
[13:12] reason why I was thinking about that
[13:14] after lecture question it says all
[13:16] teachers have two questions they've got
[13:19] to answer if they want to be effective.
[13:21] One, they've got to understand their learners what's going on with them what makes it challenging for them to learn this material either something about them or this material this material in relation to them.
[13:31] And then second, once they get a clue on that they have to learn how to help them overcome whatever those challenges are and learn it and successfully.
[13:40] Well, to do that, that you've just got to learn some things about your learners and how they're responding material how they're responding to the way where you're teaching of it.
[13:52] And that led to one of the one of the things that I thought really helped me a lot as a teacher that's about halfway through my teaching here at Oklahoma and I finally developed what I called a a questionnaire.
[14:02] Well, I developed a questionnaire to give at the end of a course to students and I called it focused feedback.
[14:08] It wasn't like the usual standard questionnaires routine was just a good course, you like it or not, you know, you want that information, but this focused feedback had two parts.
[14:15] And I had another version had three part.
[14:20] for the two-part version just explained.
[14:21] of simply was first part was here were the things that I had hoped you would learn in this course.
[14:25] that was from the straight out of the syllabus my learning goals.
[14:28] and I said please give me a rating in a set of comments how well each one of these one by one how well did that happen for you.
[14:37] and I'm asking for you to say this course was you know magic and wonderful and every aspect if it happened I want to know that.
[14:43] if it didn't happen I want to know that you know high medium or low and then why what helped it happen what didn't happen.
[14:47] so give me that for all the goals and then the second part was the learning activities.
[14:52] I did briefly describe each one you had readings we had holes maybe some many lectures we have some small group discussions we have whole class discussions whatever we have we had some independent projects.
[15:05] each one of these the purpose of that activity was to help you do this that or whatever question to what degree was that effective for you.
[15:15] okay so I got their answers and when I took that and then kind of summarized.
[15:20] the answers there's always arrange them for you know for any given things some things were effective or not effective.
[15:24] but I had a high-resolution picture of which of the learning goals were working.
[15:32] where were happening for most of the students and which weren't and some clue as to why they were telling me why they would weren't and the same thing for the activity what was working and what wasn't and and that allowed me to know what to keep on what was working keep it and what needed some tinkering some changing minor changing or big changes or whatever but that focused that information that allowed me to do that came from if you will listening to the learner in this case via a questionnaire about a specific course so I think you know doing things like that can continues to that's what you got to do to be effective and to get more effective if you've got to find out from students as this working or not you can do it quicker you can get in the course but we've got to make the learning work for the learners we have and to do that.
[16:20] We've got to listen to them.
[16:24] I really like that approach.
[16:27] I think that there's this aspect of it which kind of asks you to let go of your ego a little bit, right?
[16:33] Because it's hard to get that feedback.
[16:37] How do you?
[16:47] Yeah, well, yeah, I I think I think that's only hard to give that up if you think the course is all about me.
[16:55] There are teachers who feel that way.
[16:57] Oh, yeah, a lot of knowledge and I've worked hard to get it and my job is to share my knowledge with you, so it's from me about me, etc.
[17:10] Okay, and if that's your attitude, that's gonna be hard to give that up.
[17:14] But if you buy that teaching to learning paradigm shift that it really I am an Ayman, I'm an element, I'm an important factor in.
[17:21] this whole thing but the bottom line is not about what they think about me or what they think I'm the most erudite knowledgeable person they've ever meet.
[17:29] at least one to subject or whatever that's not what it's all about it's all about their learning by the end of the course.
[17:36] and if we can make that shift then I need to do whatever I can do to get that to happen as well as it possibly can.
[17:46] so if you ever you know I didn't start out with you know yeah where I didn't had a clue I knew I didn't know what I was doing back to the Peace Corps that first time I was teaching before I had any training about what a good.
[17:58] I knew I was a grind knew it wasn't about me but I knew I wanted them good things to happen for them and so I got started that way.
[18:04] so when I read that paradigm shift it helped me clarify something but it was more of an affirmation of something I've sort of been truly felt.
[18:11] but if you realize it's not a pitch it's all about the learning then that's not a hard shift to make.
[18:18] I think that's that's maybe a little more difficult when you come to you like when
[18:24] you start with faculty that came in as experts versus coming in as teachers.
[18:28] like they do in K to 12 right it's a different.
[18:29] yeah yeah here's the counter-argument for that.
[18:34] you know even when faculty do have pride and oftentimes justifiable there were a lot of great great not only very laudable people here to Oklahoma we taught from that base and everywhere I go on.
[18:48] but even so even those teachers don't like to go to their classes and see only half the students there if that or of the students there half of them not paying attention or they're just not interested or engaged or to get to the end of the course or things along the way and see students doing really poor work indicating they really have not learned.
[19:12] that's not an enjoyable experience for anyone.
[19:16] okay and I've seen that happen for very knowledgeable people.
[19:23] okay so my selling point.
[19:23] even if they've got a big ego would you
[19:27] be interested if I could share some ideas with you that would increase student attendance increase student engagement increase the quality and quantity of student learning if I can tell you based on my own experiences teacher and lots of other people I think we can increase those and improve those for your courses would you be interested would you give me a little of your time and most people won't find hard to say no to that yeah well that that's the so I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what active learning actually means I think when we talk about active learning some people are just like you know somebody's just interested but it's not just that what can you go more deeply into that yes yes I think that was a common mystery of about what after learning was for when it first got started in part because the people who wrote those books the subtitle after active learning was how to increase student
[20:27] engagement well it does okay but student
[20:31] engagement is not the same thing as the
[20:33] student learning it's in it's an
[20:34] essential means to the learning but it's
[20:37] not the learning itself you still have
[20:39] to get to that that second step so it's
[20:42] a got to have but the meet the purpose
[20:45] of it is not just to make things
[20:46] exciting so how do you plug it in a way
[20:48] that really promotes learning as well as
[20:50] a student engagement if you do it right
[20:51] it will increase engagement and do that
[20:54] right or increase the student learning
[20:56] but I when you when you suggested we
[20:58] might want to talk about the meaning of
[21:00] active learning what we do with that yet
[21:01] I had yeah people often joke about
[21:05] thinking my book and my ideas that I
[21:07] know I really got a good idea when I can
[21:09] illustrate it with three circles in a
[21:11] triangle you know that and from the
[21:14] what's he buying to a whole bunch of
[21:15] other things it's great I think most
[21:18] people just I think to me an expert is
[21:24] somebody who can you can present things
[21:26] very very simply and to me the fact that
[21:28] I can look at that and remember all
[21:29] those elements yeah three I can remember
[21:32] yeah yes working again
[21:33] yeah well it's same thing with active
[21:36] learning when I
[21:36] okay what is it we're really talking
[21:38] about well and again I thought there was
[21:40] some some understandable misperception
[21:43] everybody said we got a stop lecture or
[21:46] if you translate in the teacher talking
[21:47] not true I said but you know or reading
[21:49] you know all this reading books and
[21:51] stuff they said but way to me I said to
[21:52] myself wait a minute I license like like
[21:54] to listen to a good lecture I like to
[21:56] read a good book why I mean the obvious
[21:59] answer was it's because when it's good I
[22:02] get good information or and or good
[22:04] ideas from well that's a god I have for
[22:06] any kind of valuable new learning so
[22:10] let's keep that but then say not we're
[22:12] not going to throw that out but they may
[22:13] be out with the bathwater so to speak
[22:14] but but we got to add some other too and
[22:16] the real argument was we got to stop
[22:19] doing what we were doing before those
[22:20] books came out in the early nineties
[22:22] which is lecture lecture lecture and
[22:23] that was really all we were doing that
[22:25] was the real art so what we got it do is
[22:28] ulysses translates lecture in to get
[22:30] information ideas and some way for
[22:32] students to do something with that
[22:33] information is and for some some way for
[22:36] them to reflect both about the ideas and
[22:38] about their learning and so if you want
[22:43] to promote active learning I think
[22:44] there's three things you want to do
[22:46] first thing is figure out some way to
[22:49] get that acquisition that initial
[22:52] exposure and acquisition of the
[22:54] information and ideas as much as you can
[22:57] outside a class because that's just what
[23:00] when we get to get when we have to have
[23:02] a classroom and we pull all the students
[23:04] same time same place the teachers same
[23:06] time same place we want to do that but
[23:08] that's expensive
[23:09] don't use that moment to do something
[23:12] can be done so much simpler such as
[23:15] reach after 1:00 and 2:00 or whatever
[23:16] okay so let's get as much as we can move
[23:20] that out of the classroom then have them
[23:21] come in and check their understanding
[23:22] then move on the other thing and the
[23:24] second thing you want to do with them is
[23:26] have them do something with that
[23:28] information at you know check their
[23:29] understanding of it which is what we do
[23:31] with those scratch off cards that you
[23:33] talked about earlier we can go into that
[23:34] if we want but do something with it
[23:36] answer questions solve problems whatever
[23:39] and and the clicker thing the people
[23:41] that Eric Missouri from Harvard has done
[23:43] so much with having read it outside of
[23:45] class come in give them some little
[23:47] questions some basic questions that
[23:49] little basic question
[23:51] have them click whether they think this
[23:52] answer is correct or that answer is
[23:53] correct analyze here's a problem can you
[23:55] answer correctly turn the neighbor and
[23:57] then answer to see if you change your
[23:59] answer and all that stuff in that simple
[24:00] little dialog often helps people
[24:02] understand it oh I didn't think about
[24:04] that I need that yeah let me change my
[24:06] answer on that but but they're doing
[24:09] something with it they're not just
[24:11] listening to somebody which is
[24:12] information intake information intake
[24:14] they're doing something can I use that
[24:16] to answer this question and so you want
[24:19] to happen do something then the third
[24:20] thing I want you I think you really
[24:22] really need to do is have them reflect
[24:23] not just on do I understand it but
[24:25] reflect on their learning what as a
[24:29] result of my lucky learning experiences
[24:32] what am i learning about myself as a
[24:35] learner about the nature of learning
[24:37] about what it takes for me to do to
[24:40] learn effectively all those kind of
[24:42] things
[24:42] and you know that balls minute papers we
[24:45] can do that sort of thing and you know
[24:47] learning journals and learning
[24:48] portfolios where they sort of step back
[24:50] from themselves and look at themselves
[24:51] learning and say where's it going well
[24:53] where it's not going well and what does
[24:55] that tell me about learning myself so
[24:57] far so forth so you know but much we can
[25:00] move the information and idea stuff
[25:02] acquisition outside of class use your
[25:04] class time and even assignments you can
[25:06] have students go out of class but have
[25:08] them do something with it then them
[25:09] reflect up you get all three of those
[25:11] you've got a good version this is one of
[25:16] the things I noticed when people
[25:18] students joined class is that they still
[25:21] have very outdated methods of studying
[25:25] they have outdated methods of they don't
[25:27] understand themselves as in terms of
[25:30] learning so go how do you how do you
[25:35] facilitate that in in the class like
[25:37] let's say you know you you're talking to
[25:39] somebody and they're already in third
[25:40] year you of the University and if it's
[25:41] been all the brute force information
[25:45] input you know and hate reading by the
[25:47] time they leave yeah well she a couple
[25:52] things there I think
[25:58] when you when you do use
[25:59] learning-centered ways of teaching or in
[26:01] course design as well as the interaction
[26:03] stuff and all these new ideas on
[26:04] teaching one real important principle or
[26:09] rule is if you're going to do something
[26:12] that students are not used to doing so
[26:14] they had three years of what it lectured
[26:16] you know not stop lecturing you're gonna
[26:17] do active learning whatever you've got
[26:20] to introduce them to that and help them
[26:21] understand why you're doing it and what
[26:23] that means for them in terms of how they
[26:25] need to what they need to do to learn
[26:27] effectively in this kind of a class so
[26:29] you need to spend the first class day or
[26:31] part of first week ever letting them do
[26:33] it as well and and sing just so they can
[26:35] feel what small group feels like what
[26:37] reflection feels like what talking to
[26:39] other students in class feels like etc
[26:41] may be asking questions more frequently
[26:43] of a teacher in class language let them
[26:45] feel what it's what it's like when they
[26:47] do that but you also got against them in
[26:49] some information about why you're doing
[26:51] this but they can understand you but
[26:53] basically it's going to be about make it
[26:55] more interesting make it more valuable
[26:56] in terms of preparing you for life and
[26:58] one part of life this side or whatever
[27:00] so you want to justify it and for them
[27:02] the other thing you may need to do is a
[27:06] well then second thing I guess you do
[27:08] this reflection have them step back and
[27:09] say well how is it going what's up I
[27:11] mean what's not helping me learn those
[27:13] kind of things so where they can start
[27:14] to gather information for that there's a
[27:16] third option that that another person
[27:19] has started to develop that I think is
[27:21] potentially very significant and very
[27:24] valuable and it's a lady named saundra
[27:27] McGuire a chemistry teacher down at
[27:29] Louisiana State University and she
[27:33] taught the intro chemistry class large
[27:35] lecture class kind of thing and she had
[27:38] a lot of first-generation students who
[27:40] did not know how to study right for
[27:42] college and although in this case were
[27:44] probably dealing with freshmen
[27:45] sophomores and and and a lot of those
[27:48] students had the slightly below the
[27:51] surface or maybe fully at the surface
[27:54] concern that maybe I'm not college-level
[27:58] material okay and and they get to the
[28:03] first test or two and they get data that
[28:06] suggests no you're not college level
[28:09] mature because you're getting D's and
[28:10] F's okay those students are on the verge
[28:15] of flunking that class and dropping out
[28:18] of college she was you know was
[28:21] horrified at what that what that meant
[28:23] when she believed these students could
[28:26] learn if they properly understood what
[28:29] learning was all about and and her
[28:32] belief was that most students well we
[28:34] got two problems here teachers were
[28:36] coming in thinking their job is to
[28:37] lecture and we got to try to change that
[28:40] the other problem with students coming
[28:42] in thinking I got to memorize everything
[28:43] I read or you know not make sense of it
[28:45] but memorize it all they if they were
[28:48] smart enough and had a halfway-decent
[28:49] short to remember they could get by with
[28:51] that house in high school it doesn't
[28:53] work with college courses generally and
[28:56] so we have to help them recognize
[28:58] quickly before they do flunk out of
[29:00] every course of doing that that won't
[29:01] work here and there's a better
[29:03] alternative and that they're capable of
[29:05] learning so she has she told students
[29:08] after one or two tests where they got
[29:10] some negative feedback I'm going to
[29:12] offer a one-hour session on how to learn
[29:16] in this course but it's really about how
[29:20] to learn in any course it's just about
[29:21] learning and she gives them a couple of
[29:24] exercises that proves to them that their
[29:27] intelligence as they can see that it's
[29:29] not fixed I'm smart enough for college
[29:31] I'm not smart enough taught it's fluid
[29:34] if you do things right you can increase
[29:37] your ability to answer questions solve
[29:39] problems and she it's a fantastic
[29:42] exercise I borrowed it from her used it
[29:45] when I'm working with faculty groups and
[29:47] I tell them at the beginning this how
[29:49] many of you believe I can raise your
[29:50] intelligence by a factor of two or three
[29:54] in the next three minutes of course
[29:56] nobody believes that I'm smart already
[29:57] I'm you're gonna double that but I go
[30:00] through the exercise give them a problem
[30:01] and they do very poorly I explain a few
[30:04] things I give them the same problem and
[30:05] they do it three times better I say if
[30:06] there you see I did it well that's easy
[30:09] I could go through that with you but
[30:11] it's a really interesting exercise but
[30:14] but you might want to talk to her on her
[30:16] in half
[30:16] you'll sort of explain to that widow
[30:18] she's a she's now resigned if she's
[30:21] retired from LSU that's consulting she's
[30:23] got a book out called teach students how
[30:26] to learn thank you
[30:28] it's really good I think it's really
[30:30] powerful I learned about it after I
[30:32] finished teaching at Oklahoma or else I
[30:34] would have incorporated I think it's
[30:37] that powerful really good so well know
[30:42] well I can't ask her but this is the
[30:44] thing that I'm thinking about is do you
[30:47] you know you said you are now in your
[30:49] workshops you're talking to people who
[30:51] are designing the courses who are your
[30:54] you but you're teaching them this is
[30:56] possible you're almost like yeah it's
[30:59] their self belief that learning is fluid
[31:02] that's that well that's it that's a good
[31:05] point you make one of my might well not
[31:08] one of my my big goal in my workshops is
[31:12] to convince in this case professors who
[31:15] might think I don't see any way to make
[31:17] my courses a whole lot better
[31:18] I'm tinkering with it as it is and I
[31:20] think I'm making a little adjustment so
[31:21] you get a little bit better which is
[31:23] true but I make leg out the claim form
[31:25] if you learn this idea and a couple of
[31:27] other ideas I'm going to throw in here
[31:28] you can make it a whole lot better not
[31:29] just a little bit well I've got to
[31:31] convince them of that and part of the
[31:34] way I do that is in the workshop the
[31:37] content is course designed but I'm using
[31:40] all these different things especially
[31:41] the teaching strategy of team-based
[31:43] learning and the outer course before we
[31:46] start reading assignment which we check
[31:47] their understanding and then have them
[31:49] do things within class like I've been
[31:50] talking about here and periodically
[31:52] reflecting on what they're doing how
[31:53] it's working and why that's is that a
[31:55] little bit better a lot better kind of
[31:57] thing so I'm and then we get to the end
[31:59] of it and when then we stand back and
[32:01] look at that and I said well if you can
[32:03] do this do you think that's going to
[32:03] make a big difference for difference and
[32:05] make you say wow this workshop there was
[32:07] energy there was engagement we really
[32:09] felt like we learned a lot if I can make
[32:11] my course like that I think it would
[32:13] make a big difference not a little
[32:14] difference but I have but so what I'm
[32:16] doing is modeling the message that I'm
[32:19] trying to convey with the hope that it
[32:21] will not convince them slash help them
[32:25] believe that they can really make
[32:27] changes that will make a big difference
[32:28] yes it's
[32:30] it's so you practice what you preach I
[32:32] love it but it's good there's another
[32:35] aspect to that and I think that a lot of
[32:37] people have when they get to expert
[32:40] level they don't they stop being a
[32:43] learner's or they there was it's been a
[32:45] long time since they've been there and
[32:47] so yeah they forget what it's like to be
[32:50] a student yeah afraid it new and also
[32:53] engaged right yeah yeah yeah yeah I've
[32:57] read so many stories of senior people
[33:00] your Provost specially Dean's Provost's
[33:01] sometimes president who when they get a
[33:03] sabbatical will spend it taking courses
[33:07] for the express purpose of reminding
[33:10] them what it feels like to be a student
[33:12] with a subject they don't know about
[33:14] I mean selection I specifically get
[33:16] something in there like Greek or
[33:18] mathematics or whatever they just never
[33:20] had time to go do and it's every time
[33:23] they do that it is truly revelation
[33:25] revolutionary for them they just realize
[33:27] how hard it is when the teacher doesn't
[33:29] lay out their objectives clearly what
[33:30] doesn't give them feedback on their
[33:32] assignments either good feedback or
[33:34] prompt feedback or meaningful feedback
[33:35] and those kind of thing all these things
[33:37] that many of us do without realizing
[33:39] what the problems are with that but they
[33:42] discovered because they now they're
[33:44] advanced learner they know what they
[33:45] want but now they're seeing what hey all
[33:47] these things these teachers are I'm
[33:48] taken
[33:49] I do those same things and now I see the
[33:52] consequence of that and so it really
[33:54] changes their teaching so maybe we want
[33:56] to just everybody after about three or
[33:58] four years take little time off and take
[34:01] one class and take notes as what's it
[34:03] like to be a learner in a class where
[34:05] you really don't know the subject before
[34:06] yeah I do like that very much I don't
[34:09] that would actually be very valuable
[34:11] activities suggesting that what I
[34:16] thought have a chance to talk I hadn't
[34:19] laid that out as a separate activity but
[34:21] yeah I think you're right so you like
[34:26] I've attended two of the workshops that
[34:28] you run so you what kind of when you're
[34:30] running these these workshops tell us
[34:32] about one that you run and what do you
[34:34] think what do you think these are things
[34:37] that most people struggle with when they
[34:39] in a workshop I I'd probably put my
[34:43] finger on to things that's really
[34:44] challenging for people to get their
[34:46] heads wrapped around and well not only
[34:48] their heads but buy into right off the
[34:50] bat the thing - it's a little challenge
[34:52] that from teaching for learning that
[34:54] that whole learning paradigm shift most
[34:58] people are still operating even though
[34:59] an article has been out now 25 years or
[35:02] more they're still operating with a
[35:04] teaching paradigm you know the word
[35:06] hasn't gone out to the fact 11 that we
[35:08] need to think about what we're doing and
[35:10] so I often lay that out at the beginning
[35:12] but and I lay out what I hope is a semi
[35:15] persuasive way but it still takes time
[35:18] for them to adjust their activities to
[35:20] reflect what that would mean if you
[35:22] offer it as a teacher on a learning
[35:23] centered program so that's one thing
[35:26] that's a challenge the other is the
[35:28] taxonomy I think is it's not Hardy at
[35:31] their head wrap down but but when they
[35:33] say the right hand side of mighta
[35:37] taxonomy you know the part that's bloom
[35:39] repackaged the foundational knowledge
[35:40] application integration they've been
[35:43] doing that and living with that you know
[35:44] as a student and as a teacher for some
[35:46] time so the idea of what they might need
[35:48] to do to promote it who might need to do
[35:50] to assess it they've got half an idea
[35:52] but the left-hand side the human
[35:54] dimension the caring the learning how to
[35:56] learn how would we get that to happen
[35:58] and even more challenging how would I
[36:01] ever assess it I mean that and I just I
[36:03] literally get that direct question
[36:05] almost every workshop when we start
[36:07] getting to that part of oh I believe it
[36:09] yeah and and so I have to spend some
[36:11] time suggesting examples and and and
[36:16] also in your part of the answer to that
[36:17] is remember we're talking feedback not
[36:22] necessarily grading mm-hmm okay
[36:25] you will want to grade all the right
[36:27] hand side at some point you may well
[36:30] want to represent you may want to grade
[36:32] how well you interact with others if
[36:33] you're if that's part of your grading
[36:35] system like for small groups and how
[36:36] well are you learning how to work in
[36:38] small groups that may be party grade may
[36:40] not be are caring almost for sure you
[36:42] don't want to use that that's part of
[36:44] the grading system assess it get
[36:45] feedback on how it's happening but that
[36:47] doesn't mean grading the students on it
[36:49] and the learning how to learn you can
[36:50] you can grade that or you may just want
[36:52] to get feedback on
[36:53] yeah so you have the dimensions and
[36:58] there's a bit there six six yeah I call
[37:02] three on the right in electron version
[37:04] of it yeah yeah so if you want to just
[37:09] kind of go go through the if you're
[37:14] assessed yeah just yeah let me just real
[37:18] quickly give you people a review of the
[37:20] taxonomy of significant learning and I
[37:22] and I want to preface this by saying by
[37:26] drawing a compare and contrast with the
[37:27] bloom taxonomy and one of the exciting
[37:30] experiences I had when I was a graduate
[37:32] student at the University in the early
[37:34] 1970s was Benjamin bloom was there and
[37:38] was still teaching and I got to take a
[37:39] course from Benjamin blue he is one of
[37:46] the Giants of Education yes with
[37:49] multiple ideas of which the engine you
[37:51] know the education objectives was one of
[37:53] several but that maybe was the biggest
[37:55] but here's the difference between and
[37:57] what I feel I'm doing is standing on
[38:00] Bloom's shoulders borrowing the whole
[38:02] idea of the taxonomy but by standing on
[38:05] his shoulders trying to look a little
[38:06] further and seeing some kinds of
[38:07] learning that he didn't come up with and
[38:09] the reason in the different what I came
[38:11] up with in him is how we came about it
[38:13] what bloom did it's actually blooming
[38:16] his associates was interviewed college
[38:19] teachers in an essence asked some what
[38:21] is that you really want your students to
[38:23] learn and I got this long list of many
[38:25] things and you know several are more
[38:26] similar so they kind of grouped those
[38:28] together different words but they meant
[38:29] they were referring really to the same
[38:30] thing and what they came up with there's
[38:33] six kinds of cognitive knowledge that's
[38:35] the one wheel or familiar with the he
[38:36] was really directly responsible for and
[38:39] so he did that
[38:41] I took a slightly did well about it
[38:44] slightly I took a real different
[38:45] approach instead of talking to
[38:47] professor's I talked to students asked
[38:50] him that part of thing I did well ago
[38:51] have you ever had a course that really
[38:55] where you learned something that really
[38:56] changed the way you lived your life by
[38:59] eventually water that's what I mean by
[39:00] significant learning not just something
[39:02] you memorize the test then forget
[39:05] second what is it that has the power
[39:09] what kinds of learning have the power to
[39:12] change the way people live their life
[39:14] well I started that with my dissertation
[39:16] probably a hundred students got that
[39:18] started and continued talking to
[39:19] students about that and then when I was
[39:21] working with some graduate students one
[39:22] time and of course an ITIN I think it
[39:25] was 98 97 somewhere in there at Oklahoma
[39:28] I was trying to figure out how what
[39:30] these were students from different
[39:31] disciplines but they had them designing
[39:33] a course and what kind of learning goals
[39:35] would they all say yeah I want to
[39:37] include that regardless of my discipline
[39:38] well knowledge was one application was
[39:40] one everybody wants them to know
[39:41] something and learn how to use it and
[39:43] then I hit on this but everybody wants
[39:46] their students to learn keep on learning
[39:48] after the course is over because we
[39:49] can't teach him everything and just no
[39:50] way as possible so that would be good if
[39:53] we could do it if we could figure out
[39:54] how to do it and I knew right away that
[39:56] was a universal and then I said well
[39:58] what else is universal then part of it
[40:00] came for me I'll start coming up for my
[40:02] dissertation and some other things I had
[40:04] thought about and eventually what I came
[40:06] up with these these six categories where
[40:08] students have said when I learned some
[40:10] of that sometimes that had the effect of
[40:12] changing the way I lived some part of my
[40:14] life my personal things I'm interested
[40:16] in things the way I see the world with
[40:18] way I do things whatever the first
[40:20] category was that the foundational
[40:22] knowledge just concepts information
[40:24] principles whatever that you used to
[40:28] start your understanding of the world
[40:29] that here we're just talking about
[40:30] understanding it and remembering it
[40:33] after you've read it or heard about it
[40:35] so I'm really kind of combining two of
[40:37] two of Bloom's categories there the
[40:39] second big category for me was when
[40:40] students said it was vagal to me because
[40:43] I learned how to do something I couldn't
[40:44] do before and I can either I learned or
[40:47] I immediately saw the value of well and
[40:50] then I broke that down think to some
[40:51] other and I see of some practical
[40:52] knowledge critical law practical
[40:55] thinking critical thinking application
[40:57] integrative thinking and creative
[40:59] thinking things like that so that's
[41:01] where I took a couple of blooms category
[41:02] and just called big category application
[41:05] but with several meanings to that the
[41:08] third category was sometimes student so
[41:10] that wasn't just what I learned about
[41:11] the subject matter of that course it was
[41:14] how the teacher helped us learn how to
[41:15] take the subject matter of that course
[41:17] and Link it and see the
[41:19] influence of other kinds of knowledge on
[41:20] that or that influence of that knowledge
[41:22] on other kinds of knowledge it's kind of
[41:24] interdisciplinary transdisciplinary some
[41:26] of those kind of things and of course
[41:28] that starts to be really yet the
[41:30] potential significance of any kind of
[41:32] knowledge we get so-called that's
[41:34] cognitive that's like bloom that's like
[41:36] his synthesis you're putting things
[41:37] together so all those first three are
[41:41] just things bloom referred to but they
[41:43] this time they came out of the mouths of
[41:45] students as being really valuable when
[41:47] they learn some of these things but then
[41:49] we'll move to what this this not more
[41:51] than just cognitive category a lot of
[41:54] the second one I called the fourth
[41:55] category called the human dimension with
[41:57] two major sub parts a lot of the
[42:00] students said a particular course are
[42:02] really valuable to me because I read I
[42:05] learn something new about myself who I
[42:08] am my self-image or who I want to be
[42:12] myself ideal I think I'd like to be a
[42:14] person who does this or that or whatever
[42:16] or I learned something about myself as a
[42:19] learner how I learned well if they've
[42:21] been my course that would be one things
[42:22] I'd be working on okay so that was one
[42:25] major part and I called that learning
[42:26] about yourself but related to that was
[42:30] when they said the course was valuable
[42:32] because I learned how to interact with
[42:35] people other people especially people
[42:38] from different myself but that could be
[42:39] a lot of different meanings like being
[42:41] learning how to work on a team learning
[42:43] how to be a leader for a group learning
[42:45] how to work with people who are very
[42:47] different from myself
[42:48] older younger racially different
[42:50] religious differences rich poor what
[42:53] your nationalities whatever okay all of
[42:57] those learning how to understand and
[42:59] interact effectively with people other
[43:01] than yourself of course it's valuable
[43:04] once you start identifying well those
[43:06] two were closely connected you almost
[43:08] couldn't learn about one without having
[43:10] an impact on what you know learning
[43:12] about others you learn about yourself
[43:12] you learn about yourself you begin to
[43:14] learn about interacting with others so I
[43:15] linked those together and called that
[43:17] the human dimension fifth category was
[43:20] when students said the course was
[43:21] valuable because it got me interested in
[43:23] something I'd never been interested
[43:25] before now I'm excited I want to I don't
[43:27] want to go out and look at the Astronomy
[43:28] look the stars at night or whatever I
[43:30] want to look read ancient history or
[43:32] I get excited about math and they might
[43:34] say you know kind of thing I never
[43:36] recited that bath but now I can see I
[43:37] can solve problems and when you saw
[43:39] found it's fun or whatever or I could or
[43:41] sometimes they say they've made students
[43:44] reevaluate some of their existing values
[43:47] it's about say cultural diversity about
[43:50] environmental quality some of those kind
[43:52] of things that we have controversies
[43:54] about in society they may have one value
[43:57] but the course made me rethink that well
[43:58] look that's what basically a value of
[44:01] something you care about so to me that
[44:02] belongs in there but also another
[44:04] important part of that is
[44:04] professionalism if we're in professional
[44:07] schools we're trying to give people up
[44:08] we want them to value professional work
[44:10] well evaluate it means you care about
[44:12] certain things I mean hard ethics and
[44:14] responsibility is scared about something
[44:16] and then finally like I was mentioning a
[44:20] moment ago nobody has ever taught
[44:22] everything that there is to know about
[44:24] any subject so we've got to stop trying
[44:26] that you know stop talking so fast or
[44:28] signing all a chapter in a book or
[44:30] whatever we do to try to do that get as
[44:31] close as we can that's bad so don't try
[44:35] to do it figure out what the phenyls
[44:37] fundamentals are teach the fundamentals
[44:38] well but then have an important segment
[44:41] of the course where you address the
[44:43] question of how they could what they
[44:45] could do to keep on learning about this
[44:47] and one of the things that I have
[44:49] developed for that is helping students
[44:50] develop actually in the course
[44:52] developing a plan for their own future
[44:55] learning about this course well a plan
[44:57] means an agenda and a strategy for
[45:00] learning what's on the agenda so if you
[45:02] can help students develop so a list of
[45:04] some things they would like to if you
[45:06] late need to learn about and then
[45:08] secondly develop a specific strategy
[45:09] does that mean take some courses to read
[45:11] some books go to just visit some
[45:14] websites and business of people whatever
[45:16] to each note if they can get a strategy
[45:18] an agenda and a strategy they've got a
[45:20] plan well that would greatly if you can
[45:23] help them do that they walk out of there
[45:25] with a plan that they have built
[45:26] themselves that's going to increase both
[45:28] the likelihood that they'll try to do it
[45:30] and they'll be able to successfully do
[45:32] it okay so not learning how to learn you
[45:34] know and I hate to say it but I don't
[45:37] hate to say it but I mean I like to say
[45:38] it you know in the 21st century if
[45:41] there's anything that we know is
[45:43] important is if everybody
[45:46] really needs to learn things continually
[45:49] their whole life not just while they're
[45:51] in college and we're not automatically
[45:54] skilled at that that's not something
[45:55] you're born with you have to get to
[45:57] learn how to do it and get better at it
[45:58] and and I don't think even college
[46:00] students are really skilled at learning
[46:03] how to do independent learning on their
[46:04] own so I think if we had if they had a
[46:06] lot of courses that help them learn how
[46:08] to do that they would exit college with
[46:11] a plan but also more skills as an
[46:13] independent learner know how to engage
[46:14] in these things and that's for the 21st
[46:17] century you're not going to be
[46:19] successful unless you learn how to keep
[46:20] on learning and figure out what you need
[46:22] to learn about professionally personally
[46:24] whatever and so that to me that if I had
[46:29] to pick one that for that for our time
[46:32] in history is critically important
[46:34] always been important but before to be
[46:36] critically important for the individual
[46:37] and for society we need people who know
[46:41] how to learn so let's help them with
[46:43] that hey I got my band stand now but
[46:45] that yeah but that's not in bloom that's
[46:48] not in bloom it's 9:00 and it's it's so
[46:51] important so so that's why that left
[46:54] hand side I mean even all but all those
[46:55] things on the left hand side people so
[46:57] often say to me you know I just always
[47:00] sort of felt that that ought to be
[47:01] that's valuable but I never thought it
[47:03] was legitimate to include it as an
[47:05] explicit goal in a course learning goal
[47:07] and what I what this taxonomy in my book
[47:09] is known as essence give people
[47:10] permission to do that of course then
[47:13] they have the question well how do we
[47:14] get that to happen but that's what the
[47:15] model of integrated course design tries
[47:17] to help them do and some of the examples
[47:20] in there helps them do but but so yeah
[47:23] that's I think it's a four it's a fuller
[47:25] set of valuable kinds of learning then
[47:28] we had in Bloom's taxonomy that course
[47:29] I'm biased because I'm the creator of it
[47:31] but I really think that's what a lot of
[47:33] people have found valuable about the
[47:35] book and they tracked it they liked that
[47:37] taxonomy and where it allows them to go
[47:39] further than what bloom did everything
[47:42] bloom did was valuable but there's some
[47:43] additional things are also value but we
[47:45] really need to be addressing I agree
[47:47] with you I because I used those I used
[47:51] the taxonomy with instructors and I
[47:54] found that
[47:56] subject matter experts and I found that
[47:58] it draws out this this kind of wish they
[48:03] had about the kind of work that they
[48:06] wanted to do what how much impact their
[48:08] course would have but they were just
[48:09] afraid to say I want people to enjoy
[48:11] this stuff right it's so it's a
[48:14] beautiful thing and I love the fact that
[48:16] your book work works through that design
[48:18] process step by step it's very it's very
[48:21] comprehensive well laid out now I know
[48:24] that the you know probably the best way
[48:26] for somebody to really start learning
[48:29] that is to actually get your book and
[48:30] work through that process but if you
[48:32] could give people let's say three tips
[48:35] that they could if they're looking to
[48:38] increase the quality of their course and
[48:40] let's say it's already running and
[48:41] you're like okay if you do nothing else
[48:43] what are these waters what would you do
[48:46] yeah three thing that's a nice question
[48:50] I gave some thought to that and here's
[48:52] the here's a here is my short list of
[48:54] three the first is I think it would
[48:57] really be helpful for students even be
[49:00] there for teachers even before they
[49:03] start spilling out their learning goals
[49:04] is to back up one step and say what's
[49:07] your big dream that was one of the
[49:09] changes I made from the first addition
[49:11] to the secondary my in the workshops I
[49:14] discovered that one time if you can pull
[49:19] out a single statement you watch your
[49:21] big dream for students when they finish
[49:23] this course one sentence one verb what's
[49:25] the big think like an umbrella statement
[49:27] what's the big thing you really want
[49:29] them to do and I and get some focus on
[49:32] that and then and then find a
[49:35] culminating project and that as a way to
[49:36] assess that by the end of the course
[49:37] would pull that together and then then
[49:39] start saying I don't get them from not
[49:41] being able to do that to being able to
[49:42] do that but just take just to illustrate
[49:44] that the the moment that Illustrated how
[49:47] available that was I was didn't workshop
[49:49] in a school in North Carolina and I was
[49:51] trying to get to that and I asked just
[49:53] one teacher to see if she could be an
[49:54] example for us and she was teaching your
[49:56] course on tea and
[49:59] I said what's your what's the single big
[50:01] thing that you want students to which
[50:03] would be great for this and she really
[50:05] had a hard time magic well there's so
[50:07] many things they got have to listen to
[50:08] the director they have to interact with
[50:09] the set they have to think about their
[50:11] audience they have to have voice and how
[50:12] to move around and know what that what
[50:14] the directors trying to do with the play
[50:15] all these things she couldn't bring it
[50:16] out I kept prisoner one verb another
[50:21] that I get a no no one verb and finally
[50:24] she stepped back it was a course on
[50:25] acting and she said by the end of the
[50:28] course I want students to act well we
[50:34] had we had okay now to do that there's a
[50:38] whole bunch of things you got to learn a
[50:39] whole bunch of sub you have skills
[50:41] knowledge and a whole bunch of things in
[50:42] there but that was the big goal take a
[50:46] particular play Lichter role and or a
[50:49] scene within it or component of it and
[50:51] do it well to do that you would have to
[50:54] do all these other things but that was a
[50:56] big dream so I think if you if people
[50:58] can you have teachers can press
[50:59] themselves to find what is your big
[51:01] dream but that's gonna be exciting for
[51:03] you and that's also going to help you
[51:05] bribe you to say how can I get that to
[51:09] happen for all the students if not all
[51:11] of them the large majority instead of
[51:13] 10% okay because that's your dream for
[51:17] that course and for those students so
[51:19] that's going to be helpful for the
[51:20] students for you and everybody so that's
[51:23] that's one thing really spend some time
[51:25] figuring out what your big dream is and
[51:27] that's probably not gonna be a 15-second
[51:29] exercise now I do have a question before
[51:33] we go on do you feel like that's
[51:35] something that like some teachers would
[51:38] be in are they embarrassed to say that
[51:40] that's their big dream what can they or
[51:42] do they think it's like too lofty almost
[51:44] well do they say to their students or is
[51:48] that something you kind of keep tiers
[51:50] III recommend they they put it in the
[51:52] syllabus oh that's fabulous
[51:55] this course well let me give you another
[51:57] example from my own teaching and I put
[51:59] that in the syllabus the last course
[52:00] that I taught at Oklahoma who action I'm
[52:02] not an engineer but was in the in the
[52:04] college of engineering because they got
[52:06] a grant from NSF to prepare their
[52:08] graduate students for college teaching
[52:10] if you get a PhD in engineering that's
[52:12] generally what you
[52:12] you're not going to work for industry
[52:13] you're going into academia and so they
[52:16] asked me to teach that and so I knew
[52:18] that for those students this was the
[52:20] only course they had to do anything to
[52:22] prepare them for college teaching so
[52:23] this was the whole bag okay so what was
[52:26] my big dream okay and I called the
[52:29] course not the essentials of college
[52:31] teaching I called it preparing for
[52:33] college teaching okay and then following
[52:36] my own advice I knew I couldn't teach
[52:38] him everything so I said I'm gonna teach
[52:40] him the fundamentals so that was part of
[52:42] it but the other half was I want to make
[52:44] sure they're geared up to keep on
[52:46] learning after the course is over so
[52:47] that learning how to learn we spent a
[52:48] lot of time on that but those were kind
[52:50] of two equal components of the course
[52:52] but my big dream was I want them to
[52:55] finish this course ready for college to
[52:58] start college teaching which mean they
[53:00] had the fundamentals down but they also
[53:01] had a plan for getting better okay so
[53:04] that was my dream I put that right in
[53:05] the syllabus Michael my goal my big goal
[53:08] my big dream I'm gonna be his big dream
[53:09] or big gold but my big goal single is to
[53:12] prepare you to be an effective college
[53:14] teacher so we're gonna be by that and
[53:16] just getting started and then later on
[53:17] then we went from there so yeah most
[53:20] time I haven't found people say that's
[53:22] that's worthless because it's too lofty
[53:23] right they get they they like the dream
[53:25] once again it's just getting to it
[53:27] that's the challenge for it so that's
[53:29] that's one part the other part and I've
[53:32] mentioned this already but I really
[53:34] found that the prop may be the single
[53:36] biggest thing that improved my college
[53:39] teaching was learning how to effectively
[53:41] use small groups I think for active
[53:45] learning there's a lot of things you can
[53:48] do but there I don't know of any other
[53:49] single thing that is as powerful as
[53:51] using small groups effectively creating
[53:54] effective with an intra group dialogue
[53:58] and then good intergroup dialogue across
[54:01] groups on when you get done with the
[54:02] introduced so forth and the version of
[54:05] that that I really like is a colleague
[54:07] of mine in Business College here I
[54:08] discovered he didn't be independent he
[54:10] developed it independently but I
[54:11] discovered and was really impressed by
[54:14] his called team-based learning of course
[54:16] that's a strategy that used my workshop
[54:18] because I've come to believe in it but
[54:20] when I compared that you to a lecture
[54:22] even when you're having a whole class
[54:23] discussion in a whole class discussion
[54:25] on
[54:26] students speaking at a time you click a
[54:29] class of say a hundred students in it
[54:32] and you have once per quest one student
[54:34] speaking that means 99 or not you break
[54:36] that up into 16 to 20 small groups
[54:39] you've got 18 to 20 people who are
[54:41] talking okay at any given time and so
[54:44] you just increase exponentially the
[54:47] engagement in the class you give them
[54:49] right but there's a lot of things you
[54:50] got to do to make it work right but
[54:52] those are Clara did a good job of like
[54:54] figuring out what those are and laying
[54:55] them out in his books and other people's
[54:56] books on it now
[54:57] but if you can use small groups
[54:59] effectively it just increases student
[55:03] engagement enormous Lee and I think the
[55:05] quality of student learning so that'd be
[55:06] my second candidate the third is that
[55:09] one I mentioned while ago about having
[55:10] students periodically step back from the
[55:13] learning and reflect on learning help
[55:15] them be self become self conscious of
[55:17] themselves as a learner but one of my
[55:20] other conclusions I guess I've come to
[55:22] as as I'm at the mission when I got on
[55:24] my advanced in math my soap opera here
[55:27] about learning how to learn we really
[55:29] need for people to be effective
[55:31] self-directed learners my belief is they
[55:35] cannot be effective self directing
[55:37] learners unless they're highly
[55:39] self-aware of themselves as learners and
[55:43] we're not doing a good job at all the
[55:45] only way that's going to happen if we
[55:47] periodically have them step back and
[55:48] start doing I mean the first time I had
[55:50] grad students I said I want you read me
[55:52] a little essay a self reflection about
[55:55] yourself as a learner half the students
[55:57] had no idea I mean you want me to
[55:59] summarize my not no no that's not what
[56:00] I'm talking about
[56:01] they didn't know because nobody had ever
[56:04] asked him to do it and these are PhD
[56:06] students that's a travesty that's a
[56:09] tragedy so we need to do that often
[56:13] within a class but across classes is get
[56:16] them familiar and then just observations
[56:19] about themselves and then drawing
[56:20] conclusions and what does that tell me
[56:22] about myself how do I learn well kind of
[56:25] thing and they need to they need to
[56:27] leave college with a well-developed
[56:28] sense of how they learn well so they can
[56:30] guide their own learning
[56:32] and expand the way they learn well not
[56:35] just take it as it has been expanded
[56:36] they can so those are
[56:39] three big dream small groups reflecting
[56:41] on yourself as a learner that's a tall
[56:43] order but I don't do that tomorrow
[56:45] morning
[56:46] Yeah right the big dream you could work
[56:50] on over the weekend you know it small
[56:52] groups you need that's not hard there's
[56:55] some things you need to learn and just
[56:56] like just getting the ideas and learning
[56:58] how to do them the small group has
[57:00] probably has the most details and
[57:02] experimenting and and learning
[57:05] I mean unlearn and also us unlearning a
[57:08] lot of habits that way yeah so okay so I
[57:14] am I feel like we could talk for another
[57:17] two hours at least so I wanted to know
[57:23] if people wanted to learn more about
[57:26] your work how to get in touch how they
[57:29] can do a workshop or opportunities for
[57:32] them to maybe learn more about how
[57:36] they're progressing when they continue
[57:39] applying your work if you could tell us
[57:40] that would be absolutely going to find
[57:42] as well want to take for that go for it
[57:44] yes well I get in a few minutes here I
[57:46] think I got a few things subscribe first
[57:48] of all if they want to contact me and
[57:50] I'm certainly open to that let me give
[57:52] you my email to the audience here it's
[57:54] fairly simple it's just the letters e fi
[57:58] NK first letter of my middle name D and
[58:01] then my last name d fi mk4 zero at
[58:04] gmail.com and I put that first time I
[58:08] came up when I had to create a gmail
[58:09] address and the D Fink was already taken
[58:12] so I had to put a number on there and
[58:13] soon sent my accounting nice immediately
[58:15] said ah now we know what year you were
[58:17] born in and sure enough 1940
[58:21] you figured that out in a flash here
[58:22] okay Westby from 40 gmail.com so I'm
[58:25] happy to getting meals I do get a movie
[58:27] now name with questions about this or
[58:29] whatever and I'm glad to get them and
[58:30] semi retired my wife says I didn't
[58:34] retire from Oklahoma I just changed some
[58:36] truth that so I'm I'm busy but I'm quite
[58:38] open to email but what can they do to
[58:40] learn there's three things I would like
[58:42] to I think they're really valuable I'd
[58:44] like to bring two people attention the
[58:46] first is as about two years ago
[58:49] I like some someone else to offer an
[58:52] online course of my ideas on courses on
[58:56] significant learning and integrated
[58:59] course design and the website for that
[59:01] is one word optimize learning dot-org
[59:07] okay and this the lady named Linda
[59:10] Jacoby she's the one who knew a lot
[59:13] about online courses and what you need
[59:15] to do to make those effective what she
[59:17] did was take I had I create an online
[59:19] course I didn't know anything about how
[59:21] to do it effectively and she looked at
[59:23] it and you know there was almost like
[59:24] Athene of your role you got to change
[59:27] that it's all these things that I
[59:30] realized immediately she knew what she
[59:32] was doing and I didn't so I licensed her
[59:34] well she has a it's a two week course
[59:37] but with the content but it's done in
[59:40] cohorts so you're not taking it by
[59:42] yourself and it's defecates an active
[59:44] learning it's not a read test retest
[59:46] retest it's a read do get feedback go on
[59:49] a dialogue with others go on to the next
[59:51] step
[59:52] read do share with others get feedback
[59:54] from both other people but also from
[59:56] Linda or if she's got somebody else so
[59:58] leading a mentor who knows a lot about
[01:00:00] good course design so when people come
[01:00:03] out they know and it takes about 20
[01:00:06] hours over two weeks and cost four
[01:00:08] hundred dollars so it but it's really
[01:00:10] the people who have taken and they're
[01:00:11] good number have taken they rave about
[01:00:13] this course really works and it's a fun
[01:00:16] online course as opposed to a not fun
[01:00:18] online course which a lot of those are
[01:00:20] so she started with my course she
[01:00:23] actually got in part one part two now
[01:00:25] but then since then she's let me suggest
[01:00:28] other people who and she got like three
[01:00:30] or four other courses one is on the
[01:00:31] team-based learning one is on this
[01:00:34] saundra McGuire about teaching students
[01:00:35] how to learn the third one is on
[01:00:37] assessing student learning and a book
[01:00:40] came out on learning assessment
[01:00:42] techniques Elizabeth Barkley and Clair
[01:00:45] major and what they did was kind of like
[01:00:47] the cold classroom assessment techniques
[01:00:49] book they identified 50 different kind
[01:00:51] of assessment techniques what they did
[01:00:53] course excited me was they took those 50
[01:00:56] and categorized him in terms of which
[01:00:58] ones were especially effective for each
[01:01:00] of my six categories in the taxonomy of
[01:01:02] sacred affection
[01:01:03] foundational knowledge application
[01:01:05] integration learning how to learn they
[01:01:06] got they got a total 50 with your so
[01:01:08] probably six to eight or ten for each of
[01:01:10] those categories so if you want to learn
[01:01:12] four in depth and they've just learned
[01:01:14] they also have some things in that
[01:01:16] course just about assessing effectively
[01:01:17] and good ideas so optimize learning org
[01:01:21] I think is a real good place to go and
[01:01:24] if your institution wants to do a bunch
[01:01:25] of people she'd give institutional
[01:01:27] discounts on it the second thing is some
[01:01:31] years ago I created a website and the
[01:01:33] the URL for that is design learning one
[01:01:37] word design learning dot org and what
[01:01:40] I've done is use that as a place to
[01:01:42] archive lots of different things about
[01:01:45] course design so the ideas but also a
[01:01:48] lot of the handouts like this focused
[01:01:50] learning that questionnaire is on there
[01:01:52] things like that and all but just things
[01:01:54] that I found are useful but the other
[01:01:56] thing I'd draw attention to is one place
[01:01:59] on there we have one of those tabs for
[01:02:01] examples of good course design and
[01:02:04] people have periodically sent me some
[01:02:07] you know here's my draft of course
[01:02:08] design after I took your workshop I read
[01:02:10] your book whoever and I would dress it
[01:02:12] up a little bit but once it was done
[01:02:13] it's really good I said we need to be
[01:02:14] able to share that with people so we
[01:02:16] create a place on this website that has
[01:02:18] as now we have just a little over two
[01:02:20] dozen examples so I've grouped them by
[01:02:22] natural science social science
[01:02:24] humanities and so forth but the other
[01:02:26] thing to make it easy for people I've
[01:02:28] also put on that same tab a template
[01:02:32] for what information we need for it to
[01:02:34] qualify so what you do just download
[01:02:36] that template just a word document fill
[01:02:39] in the pieces you know some of just
[01:02:40] what's the setting what's your
[01:02:41] situational factors what are you doing
[01:02:43] about them what are your primary learn
[01:02:45] what's your big dream your primary
[01:02:46] learning goals
[01:02:47] what's your three column table what's
[01:02:49] your teaching strategy and then if they
[01:02:51] have if they've taught it with that
[01:02:52] course design what what evidence do you
[01:02:55] have about the impact on student
[01:02:56] engagement student range so it just it's
[01:02:58] a little further than just a course
[01:02:59] design itself but we've got is so what
[01:03:01] they do is they fill out the template
[01:03:03] they email it to me I look it over give
[01:03:05] them feedback where I think it needs to
[01:03:06] be modified a little bit this way or
[01:03:08] that way send it back to them and either
[01:03:09] one or two bounces they usually get it
[01:03:11] pretty good and then we post it on the
[01:03:13] website well when they post it it's an
[01:03:16] example of the scholarship of teaching
[01:03:17] and learning because it's a peer
[01:03:19] reviewed by me posting and that thing
[01:03:21] gets a lot of visits because people want
[01:03:23] to see examples of those works here
[01:03:25] those good course design so people visit
[01:03:26] the last thing is a also really citing
[01:03:29] there's a new book coming out within a
[01:03:32] few months
[01:03:33] Stuart Ross the guy who had directed
[01:03:36] that workshop you were in and another
[01:03:37] guy who's worked this with some time
[01:03:38] have put together a book that's more or
[01:03:41] less together I just wrote the foreword
[01:03:43] for it but they when I said they'll be
[01:03:45] out probably in March of next year 2019
[01:03:48] it is called designing effective
[01:03:51] teaching and significant learning okay
[01:03:54] to authors Eila for Sean and Stuart Ross
[01:03:57] the publisher is stylus press and so I'm
[01:04:02] really excited what they basically done
[01:04:04] is review little bit the ideas but
[01:04:06] they've listened to people who either
[01:04:09] attended the workshop read the book
[01:04:10] tried to do it and where were they
[01:04:12] challenged where did they stub their toe
[01:04:13] where say well I I thought I understood
[01:04:15] how to write a set of learning goals but
[01:04:16] when I try to do it it just didn't come
[01:04:17] from that right what are some things you
[01:04:19] can help me with well they've got
[01:04:20] chapters and all those different
[01:04:22] problems that people frequently say we
[01:04:24] have problems with so I think it will
[01:04:26] really be effective how to how do you do
[01:04:29] this in fact my book laid out the ideas
[01:04:32] and a little bit of start of that this
[01:04:34] is a follow up book to that and says
[01:04:36] here's what goes a lot further into the
[01:04:37] how-to and helps people with the
[01:04:40] problems they're like I have so those
[01:04:41] are the three sources the optimized
[01:04:42] learning for an online course my site
[01:04:44] for example is a group design
[01:04:46] plus a lot of handouts and other ideas
[01:04:47] and then this new book that will be
[01:04:49] coming out sometime early middle part of
[01:04:51] next year and of course your book -
[01:04:54] still creating and one of the things I
[01:05:00] have learned that I'll maybe go idea to
[01:05:02] mention here there a lot of the times I
[01:05:05] don't know how what percentage don't
[01:05:06] have that information that I often get
[01:05:08] reports from people I said I'm teaching
[01:05:10] a course for graduate students or
[01:05:11] teaching assistants on college teaching
[01:05:13] and we're using my book as one of the
[01:05:16] primary texts for that which of course
[01:05:18] did lights me I think one of the reasons
[01:05:20] is it they figured out this of the
[01:05:22] things you can learn this is one the
[01:05:23] fundamental thing but the other thing
[01:05:25] about it the way it's set up it also
[01:05:27] shows you the other thing that links to
[01:05:29] that like active learning educated
[01:05:31] assessment different teaching strategies
[01:05:32] etc all those different kind of things
[01:05:34] assessment activities learning
[01:05:36] activities it shows you how these other
[01:05:39] things relate to the course design and
[01:05:40] what else you'd probably want to spend
[01:05:42] some more time learning about just to
[01:05:43] continue ratcheting yourself up because
[01:05:46] a is a good course designer and a good
[01:05:48] teacher so yeah that's that's being used
[01:05:51] on you know cases when they want to get
[01:05:52] people started on the process of
[01:05:54] learning about teaching good course
[01:05:56] design turns out I think to be a good
[01:05:58] place to start I agree is that it's a
[01:06:01] good time to finish this conversation
[01:06:05] you've done this before and I'm so
[01:06:14] pleased that you are following up with
[01:06:16] another book because you're right there
[01:06:18] are obvious and also it just shows that
[01:06:20] there is an evolution and you're
[01:06:22] listening to us the learners it's
[01:06:28] fabulous I look forward to I mean to me
[01:06:31] the the workshops are great to attend
[01:06:34] after you've had a chance to read the
[01:06:36] book to actually attend the workshop
[01:06:38] because everybody comes in with their
[01:06:39] own experiences and you can really
[01:06:41] leverage that but to take your learning
[01:06:43] - so are there any upcoming workshops
[01:06:46] that you're putting on or well there are
[01:06:48] there are let's see this is October I'm
[01:06:52] and off that one in Kenya but the ones
[01:06:53] here in the States
[01:06:54] I'm going to New York University in
[01:06:57] mid-october and then
[01:06:59] the week after that to Boston College
[01:07:01] and so those are my two and then I'm
[01:07:03] going to I don't know people know about
[01:07:04] the Lille conference it's a conference
[01:07:06] not about fact without matter about
[01:07:08] teaching in Miami University in Ohio on
[01:07:11] the southwestern corner of Ohio been
[01:07:13] going for many years really high quality
[01:07:16] conference but I'm doing a short
[01:07:19] half-day workshop there on the course
[01:07:21] design those are the three brief for
[01:07:23] this fall yet okay that's in early
[01:07:26] November I will find that everything
[01:07:29] that we've talked about today the links
[01:07:31] will be underneath the video so if
[01:07:32] you're interested in those out everybody
[01:07:34] just click there and I have visited your
[01:07:37] site and the resources are fantastic but
[01:07:39] now I'm gonna check out optimized
[01:07:40] learning because I didn't know that was
[01:07:41] there it's got some good things on it
[01:07:44] yeah yeah all right well um thank you so
[01:07:47] much the dog didn't bark my phone didn't
[01:07:51] ring so well I also want to thank you
[01:07:54] very much both for creating this this
[01:07:57] way of communicating with so many people
[01:07:59] I think I mean I'm sure it must be
[01:08:01] helping them in lots of different ways
[01:08:02] but thank you for inviting me to be a
[01:08:04] part of that not a problem my pleasure
[01:08:07] awesome ok thank you so much I will
[01:08:10] follow up when it's live so that you can
[01:08:12] share ok thank you good bye bye great
[01:08:14] rest of the day bye hmm you're listening
[01:08:19] to a learning Sonora design podcast with
[01:08:22] that Abramowitz